1 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott  
Date: Tue Dec 28, 1999 8:15pm
Subject: Welcome to Dhamma Study Group

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,

For some time we have been looking for a way to keep in touch and exchange useful reminders with our many Dhamma friends.  Recently we came across the internet listserve concept, and we decided this would be an ideal solution. 

If you know of anyone elso who might like to join, please let us know.

We hope you will take part in and benefit from this exchange. Please contribute any questions, answers, daily life dilemmas, correspondence with Nina or anything with some dhamma thread, however lighthearted.

We hope to hear from you soon!

Best wishes,

Jonothan & Sarah

 
2 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Wed Dec 29, 1999 9:22pm
Subject: visit to Bangkok

 
  We'll be in Bangkok for the New Year and have planned a day of
discussions with  K.Sujin, Ivan, Elle, Robert, Amara and other friends.
If you have any questions or issues you would like raised, pls let us
know on this list as soon as possible!

Best wishes, Sarah

 
3 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 30, 1999 2:41pm
Subject: millenium qus

 
  Dear Dh friends,

To get the 'ball rolling', I have a qu for any of you who make it here
and am repeating a qu just rec'd from Nina (not yet on the internet) to
bring up in 
Bkk.

So how do you view the Millenium? Are you having any useful reflections
or meaningful celebrations?

Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on
India.  We discussed vipallasas, perversions:  to take impermanent for
permanent, non-self for self,  foulness for beauty, dukkha for
happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi.  Kh S. suggested each akusala
sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not
understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for beauty
or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?"

looking f/w to hearing from you,
Sarah

 
4 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 9:42pm
Subject: Why study?

 
  What is the purpose of studying the many details of
Buddhismm? Why did
the Buddha teach so many different suttas? Why is the
Abhidhamma so
intricate?
If the aim is to understand the present moment then
why not just study
the experience of this moment? Won't too much study
confuse  and
distract us from the real goal?
The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
Abhidhammattha
Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives
this answer:

"There are people who like short explanations, there
are people who
like explanations of medium length, and there are
people who like
detailed explanations. Those among the different
groups who are slow in
understanding as regards mentality can understand
realities as
explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
is classified by
way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
Those who are slow
in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
can understand
realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
senses and the
five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
åyatanas. As to
dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
in this
classification rúpa has been explained more
extensively. Those who are
slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
understand realities
as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
this
classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
in detail."

I know which clssification I come under, hence my
appreciation of the details that clarify the
characteristics and functions of the many namas and
rupas.
Robert

 
5 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Why study?

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Why study?
>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:42:22 -0800 (PST)
>
>What is the purpose of studying the many details of
>Buddhismm? Why did
>the Buddha teach so many different suttas? Why is the
>Abhidhamma so
>intricate?
>If the aim is to understand the present moment then
>why not just study
>the experience of this moment? Won't too much study
>confuse  and
>distract us from the real goal?
>The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
>Abhidhammattha
>Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives
>this answer:
>
>"There are people who like short explanations, there
>are people who
>like explanations of medium length, and there are
>people who like
>detailed explanations. Those among the different
>groups who are slow in
>understanding as regards mentality can understand
>realities as
>explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
>is classified by
>way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
>Those who are slow
>in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
>can understand
>realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
>senses and the
>five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
>åyatanas. As to
>dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
>in this
>classification rúpa has been explained more
>extensively. Those who are
>slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
>understand realities
>as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
>this
>classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
>in detail."
>
>I know which clssification I come under, hence my
>appreciation of the details that clarify the
>characteristics and functions of the many namas and
>rupas.
>Robert

I think your passage nicely clarifies your questions.
I have one I received from a reader, which we are preparing to put on a new 
page on the website, a professor at CMU sent me the following:
Comment on Max Weber's "abnegation and Buddhism"
Please tell me what you think of this passage from Max Weber.
>"India religiosity is the cradle of those religious ethics which have 
>abnegated the world, theorectically,practically, and to the greatest 
>extent. It is also in India that the "technique" which corresponds to such 
>abnegation has been most highly developed. Monkhood, as well as the typical 
>ascetic and contemplative manipulations, were not only first but also most 
>consistently developed in India."


I sent him the following reply:

Max Weber has a tendency to over-generalize.  It is true that
Indians, long before the Buddha's times, realized that the world leads to 
kilesa through the six dvaras and tried to shut them out through meditation 
(concentration on a certain object to block all other worldly experiences) 
as well as other froms of physical abnegations (no food, clothings etc.) 
which are still practiced to these days.

But the greatest religion India has ever produced, and once the most 
practiced in the world, (although now other religions have almost caught up 
with it), does not teach abnegation but comprehension, not just of the world 
but of the 'self', which no other religion does. The Buddha taught that one 
need not deny the world in order to be a Buddhist, the order comprises 4 
parties: bhikkus, bhikkunis, upasakas and upasikas, and in the tripitaka, he 
encouraged most people to continue as laypeople.  Only those he knew would 
become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas were ordained, as well as 
those who have attained were permitted to at once.  For them, as well as 
those who remain at home, their respective lifestyles were the normal way to 
live, not abnegation.  By realizing what things really are they do not 
expect or force themselves to be different.  Those who still have desire for 
the 'comforts' of the world would not deny themselves but understand that in 
fact all are impermanent and not the 'self', nor would they do 'wrong' to 
others in order to get what they wish. Those who have attained certain 
levels have already completely lost their desires of certain things 
automatically, therefore no abnegation is in process for them, since it 
requires self-denial, up to the ultimate arahantship where all kilesa is 
completely eradicated, all 'self', all
'mana'. There can be no 'self-denial' where there is no 'self'. The 
techniques he mentions would be learning, fully experiencing and attainment 
of multiple levels of wisdom in the Buddhist order, not any abnegations to 
practice.

Of course India, as well as other countries, also practices other 
religions--the worship of one or multiple deities (for example 
Hinduism)--which require absolute obedience to and binding with the god or 
gods (even Jesus told people to leave everything and follow him) and all 
kinds of practices and techniques which must be easier for Max Weber or any 
other religious communities to understand.


Any comments?
Amara

 
6 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 9:42am
Subject: Re: Why study?

 
  I think you explained it very well, Amara.
It is true that the monks life is different from a
laypersons life. But the path - which is a path of
understanding - is the same for all. In the
commentaries, which were recorded by monks , it is
said that far more laypeople than monks attained the
stages of enlightenment including anagami, sakadagami
and sotapanna. This is not because a laypersons life
is more suitable for developing wisdom but because
there were more laypeople. The main point to realize
is that the path is an internal development. The
outward life one leads is not a reliable indication of
whether wisdom is developing.

You said that "Only those he knew would 
> become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas
> were ordained, as well as 
> those who have attained were permitted to at once. "
This is a little incorrect. The order became very
large later in the Buddha's life and many people
became monks or nuns who never attained any of the
paths . And even laypeople , such as his father,
became arahants. Of cause, once becoming arahant if
they were going to live longer than a week  they would
enter the order. 
There were numerous men and women anagamis who, even
after reaching that stage, spent the rest of their ,
sometimes long, lives as laypeople.
Robert




 
7 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 2:20am
Subject: Re: Why study?

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Re: Why study?
>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:42:40 -0800 (PST)
>
>I think you explained it very well, Amara.
>It is true that the monks life is different from a
>laypersons life. But the path - which is a path of
>understanding - is the same for all. In the
>commentaries, which were recorded by monks , it is
>said that far more laypeople than monks attained the
>stages of enlightenment including anagami, sakadagami
>and sotapanna. This is not because a laypersons life
>is more suitable for developing wisdom but because
>there were more laypeople. The main point to realize
>is that the path is an internal development. The
>outward life one leads is not a reliable indication of
>whether wisdom is developing.
>
>You said that "Only those he knew would
> > become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas
> > were ordained, as well as
> > those who have attained were permitted to at once. "
>This is a little incorrect. The order became very
>large later in the Buddha's life and many people
>became monks or nuns who never attained any of the
>paths . And even laypeople , such as his father,
>became arahants. Of cause, once becoming arahant if
>they were going to live longer than a week  they would
>enter the order.
>There were numerous men and women anagamis who, even
>after reaching that stage, spent the rest of their ,
>sometimes long, lives as laypeople.
>Robert



Thank you for the precisions,
Amara

 
8 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 3:24pm
Subject: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  Many thanks to Ivan and Elle for arranging the discussion at their place on 
Saturday.  I found the reminders, after a 2-year absence, very stimulating.  
We are very fortunate that Khun Sujin remains in good health and so 
accessible.

My thanks also to all the others who contributed to making the day a 
success.

To Amara, thanks for your contributions both spiritual and material (akusala 
vipake through several doorways)!  It was a pleasure to see you again.  I am 
sorry I was unable to speak to you before you left.  The website looks 
great, and it is obvoius that you have spent a good deal of time on getting 
it set up.  Keep up the good work.  I am told that you had a message from 
Tom Westheimer.  Would you mind sending me his email address so that I can 
invite him to join the i-group?  He may well be able to put us in touch with 
other old dsg members such as Soli, Peter and Co also.  Thanks.

Jonothan

 
9 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 8:45am
Subject: Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  >From: "Jonothan Abbott" 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Discussion at Ivan & Elle's
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 07:24:23 GMT
>
>Many thanks to Ivan and Elle for arranging the discussion at their place on
>Saturday.  I found the reminders, after a 2-year absence, very stimulating.
>We are very fortunate that Khun Sujin remains in good health and so
>accessible.
>
>My thanks also to all the others who contributed to making the day a
>success.
>
>To Amara, thanks for your contributions both spiritual and material 
>(akusala
>vipake through several doorways)!  It was a pleasure to see you again.  I 
>am
>sorry I was unable to speak to you before you left.  The website looks
>great, and it is obvoius that you have spent a good deal of time on getting
>it set up.  Keep up the good work.  I am told that you had a message from
>Tom Westheimer.  Would you mind sending me his email address so that I can
>invite him to join the i-group?  He may well be able to put us in touch 
>with
>other old dsg members such as Soli, Peter and Co also.  Thanks.
>
>Jonothan


Dear Jonothan and Sarah,
Thank you for your kind comments, I was very happy to see everyone again 
too, thanks again to Ivan & Ell.  I was very sorry I had to leave so early 
especially after arriving so late!  And what a lovely idea to try to get in 
touch with everyone again, here is Tom's address: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189233014003175086184232031036124080071179066034>
Do you have Tadao & Susie's address?  I only have the street address, I 
wonder if they have internet access?

We'll 'talk' again soon, everyone,
Amara



 
10 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 4:51pm
Subject: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  Robert & Amara,
I'm delighted to read yr postings...keep it up!

Robert, it was good to read the qus & quote...I remember K.Sujin
explaining how different lists and categories help us to understand
more about realities and most importantly to understand the
'anattaness' or not-self nature of the realities appearing now.  We all
need to hear a lot of detail for sure.

Amara, you make some good points and Robert some good additions.  I
would ask the reader, what is the purpose of 'abnegating' or renouncing
the worldly life? The reason for leading a monk's life should be
because this is one's 'natural' inclination and not because one has the
idea that it is better for the development of understanding. The
clinging to self and idea of contolling or finding the best situation
for mental development is very strong!

(abnegating is such a strange word to use here...as are the rest of the
words in the passage...!)
Look f/w to more!
Sarah

 
11 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 5:36pm
Subject: Re: millenium qus

 
  I'm just reflecting on a few of Kh Sujin's short responses which I
found very helpful during our great discussion at Ivan & Elle's house.
These are not exact quotes, so pls correct or add any comments!

1. When asked about a problem in a relationship her response was to ask
if were thinking of a 'sitution' again? She went on to say there would
always be more situations and more problems. What about namas and rupas
now?

2. When asked about difficulties one might find with another person's
accumulations or 'character', she reminded us to 'take it easy' and
suggested that reflecting like this showed our 'wishful thinking' for
it to be another way.

3. When we reflect on how useful certain occasions such as on a dhamma
trip to India are for helping us to have more awareness and compare
with our regular daily life, she advised us to be aware of 'the latent
attachment'.

4. When I asked Nina's qu below about vipallasas (perversions), kh
Sujin's comment was that thinking can think about anything, thinking
with dosa can think about anything.  so there's no reason why thinking
w/dosa (w/ or w'out wrong view) can't take something for beauty of
happiness and of course it happens all the time.
Sarah

> Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on
> India.  We discussed vipallasas, perversions:  to take impermanent for
> permanent, non-self for self,  foulness for beauty, dukkha for
> happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi.  Kh S. suggested each akusala
> sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not
> understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for
beauty
> or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?"
> 
> looking f/w to hearing from you,
> Sarah
>

 
12 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 10:04am
Subject: Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  >From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott" 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 00:51:04 -0800
>
>Robert & Amara,
>I'm delighted to read yr postings...keep it up!
>
>Robert, it was good to read the qus & quote...I remember K.Sujin
>explaining how different lists and categories help us to understand
>more about realities and most importantly to understand the
>'anattaness' or not-self nature of the realities appearing now.  We all
>need to hear a lot of detail for sure.
>
>Amara, you make some good points and Robert some good additions.  I
>would ask the reader, what is the purpose of 'abnegating' or renouncing
>the worldly life? The reason for leading a monk's life should be
>because this is one's 'natural' inclination and not because one has the
>idea that it is better for the development of understanding. The
>clinging to self and idea of contolling or finding the best situation
>for mental development is very strong!
>
>(abnegating is such a strange word to use here...as are the rest of the
>words in the passage...!)
>Look f/w to more!
>Sarah


Sarah: you know, the reader was only quoting Max Weber in his question and 
all the strangeness must be blamed on MW!  (By the way, is he still alive?)  
You also gave me an idea, would you like to ask our CMU professor to join 
our group?  He has many good questions and we could all comment on them for 
him.  His e-mail address is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189166234237127190172242203077062063000048234034017130114006172019105
you could send him an application form.

Here is another sample of his queries, in fact this was the first question 
he sent me, followed by my reply:

>Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:18 +0700
>Please tell me what is the real meaning of 'meditation'? Is it only
>'concentration'? or more? When 'farang' talked with me, I would like to
>make sure we mean the same thing.
>Thanks.


The word meditate originally comes from the latin meditatus which means to 
cure, to remedy, to find the answer to a problem.  Nowadays one still uses 
it to mean to think, to ponder, to focus on something mentally.  In most 
religious senses it is to concentrate, to focus, to have one pointedness of 
the mind over a certain period.
In the Buddha's teachings it is much more refined, he taught that each 
instant of citta arises with a samathi cetasika which can be at any level of 
strenght- casual focus, barely perceptible, to the very strong focus of the 
jhana cittas.  It can also arise with good or bad cetasikas (as kusala or 
akusala) and be the right or wrong kind (arising with sati it is 
samma-samadhi as opposed to miccha-samadhi) and it's object could be 
anything that the citta and cetasikas it arises with is experiencing.
Of course if the person you're having the discussion with does not know the 
what the Buddha taught about cittas and cetasikas it would be very hard for 
them to understand this aspect of meditation, so I would personally doubt 
that you would be speaking of the same thing when you use this word!
****************************************

We are also preparing this one for the web, so please comment!!!
Thanks in advance,
Amara


 
13 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 10:36am
Subject: Re: millenium qus

 
  >Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on
>India.  We discussed vipallasas, perversions:  to take impermanent for
>permanent, non-self for self,  foulness for beauty, dukkha for
>happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi.  Kh S. suggested each akusala
>sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not
>understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for
beauty
>or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?"
>
>looking f/w to hearing from you,
>Sarah

It was a real pleasure to read about the discussion especially since I had 
missed most of it.  I would like to comment on Nina's problem, I think we 
all do it everyday, taking things we like for beauty and happiness, and 
certainly since at that moment the aramana must be thoughts and not the 
paramatthadhamma of the instant, it would arise with citta and sanna that 
are accompanied by mohamulacitta... I am a little uncertain about happiness 
arising with dosa, since lobha and dosa never arise together, unlike moha 
that can accompany either one.  Of course they can all rapidly arise 
alternately and in any order so that they seem to be the same instant!
This is a very good reminder that even our slightest pleasure, without  
knowledge of the real characteristics of the instant, can lead to 
accumulation of sanna vipallasa, I think.
What about you?
Amara

 
14 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:43pm
Subject: Invitations to new members

 
  >You also gave me an idea, would you like to ask our CMU professor to join 
>our group?  He has many good questions and we could all comment >on them 
>for him.  His e-mail address is
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189166234237127190172242203077062063000048234034017130114006172019105
>you could send him an application form.


Message for all.
If you know someone who might like to join our group, simply invite them to 
send a (blank) message to-
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>.

Amara,
Would you mind passing on the above email address to your professor when 
next "speaking"?  I do not have a name for him as yet!  Thanks.
Jonothan


 
15 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:46pm
Subject: Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:


> Here is another sample of his queries, in fact this
> was the first question 
> he sent me
> 
> >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:18 +0700
> >Please tell me what is the real meaning of
> 'meditation'? Is it only
> >'concentration'? or more? When 'farang' talked with
> me, I would like to
> >make sure we mean the same thing.
> >Thanks.
> 
> 

> We are also preparing this one for the web, so
> please comment!!!
> Thanks in advance,
> Amara

Amara, I would comment that the real meaning of
meditation is bhavana or mental development. There are
two kinds of mental development, the development of
insight, vipassana and the development of calmness,
samatha. Both kinds need right understanding and can
be developed in daily life.  I would also refer the
reader to 'Buddhism in Daily Life', ch5,11,12 for more
detail.>
 hope this helps,
Sarah______________________________________________________
> 
>
 
16 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:48pm
Subject: Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  >Dear Jonothan and Sarah,
>Thank you for your kind comments, I was very happy to see everyone again
>too, thanks again to Ivan & Ell.  I was very sorry I had to leave so early
>especially after arriving so late!  And what a lovely idea to try to get in
>touch with everyone again, here is Tom's address: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189233014003175086184232031036124080071179066034>
>Do you have Tadao & Susie's address?  I only have the street address, I
>wonder if they have internet access?
>
>We'll 'talk' again soon, everyone,
>Amara

Amara,
Thanks very much for Tom's address.  I have sent him an invitaion.  We do 
not have an internet address for Susie & Tadao, but are trying to make 
contact as we feel sure Tadao must be online at his University.  Will keep 
you posted.
By the way, apologies for the gaff ('akusula' instead of 'kusula') in my 
earlier message.  I hope it was an obvious mistake!
Jonothan

 
17 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 6:59pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  Amara,
Would you mind passing on the above email address to your professor when
next "speaking"?  I do not have a name for him as yet!  Thanks.
Jonothan

His name is Tanarong, like in the address.  He knows Nina v. G. and has been 
kind enough to print out the website's English section for Nina W. in Nakorn 
Phanom.  By the way, I wish we could persuade both Ninas to get online!
I've forwarded your invitation to him already,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
18 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 7:03pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  Amara, I would comment that the real meaning of
meditation is bhavana or mental development. There are
two kinds of mental development, the development of
insight, vipassana and the development of calmness,
samatha. Both kinds need right understanding and can
be developed in daily life.  I would also refer the
reader to 'Buddhism in Daily Life', ch5,11,12 for more
detail.>
hope this helps,
Sarah

Are you quite sure?  I would say that the meaning of bhavana is mental 
development, but I have my reserves about the meaning of meditation being 
the same, not in general anyway.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
19 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 7:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  Amara,
Thanks very much for Tom's address.  I have sent him an invitaion.  We do
not have an internet address for Susie & Tadao, but are trying to make
contact as we feel sure Tadao must be online at his University.  Will keep
you posted.
By the way, apologies for the gaff ('akusula' instead of 'kusula') in my
earlier message.  I hope it was an obvious mistake!
Jonothan

It was my pleasure, and may I ask if you have heard from Jill and her 
husband?  It would be so nice to hear from her again.  Do they still live in 
Australia?
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
20 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 3:42pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:
...By the way, I wish we could persuade both
> Ninas to get online!

> Amara>
______________________________________________________
Amara, i've already faxed a few pages to Nina VG and
strongly encouraged her...I'm sure she will in time. I
think Nina V has no tel line.. we can keep
encouraging! S.

 
21 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 8:18pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium qus

 
  >
>It was a real pleasure to read about the discussion especially since I had
>missed most of it.  I would like to comment on Nina's problem, I think we
>all do it everyday, taking things we like for beauty and happiness, and
>certainly since at that moment the aramana must be thoughts and not the
>paramatthadhamma of the instant, it would arise with citta and sanna that
>are accompanied by mohamulacitta... I am a little uncertain about happiness
>arising with dosa, since lobha and dosa never arise together, unlike moha
>that can accompany either one.  Of course they can all rapidly arise
>alternately and in any order so that they seem to be the same instant!
>This is a very good reminder that even our slightest pleasure, without
>knowledge of the real characteristics of the instant, can lead to
>accumulation of sanna vipallasa, I think.
>What about you?
>Amara

Amara, as you point out 'happiness' cannot arise with dosa, but thinking 
with dosa can have any concept as object, even concepts and stories about 
happy times and happy objects....I gave an example to Nina of when one is on 
a diet at Xmas and looks at the Xmas pudding with dosa ...and taking it for 
something pleasurable with or without wrong view, but as you say, definitely 
accumulating sanna vipallasa and always with moha!

It's great to have all yr contributions here..I'm having trouble keeping up! 
Am hoping to track down the 'old hands' like Jill, but will take time and 
not everyone is on the net, yet!

I've just been checking out which of Nina's letters are on the 
websites...it's great to find them here..some of my copies are so old and 
moth eaten..I can now throw out the one's you've posted on the site. Keep it 
up!
Best regards, Sarah


 
22 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 4:30pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  Jonothan & Sarah,
Would it be possible for you to contribute to a newsletter we are planning 
for the website, maybe a short report on your new year discussion?  We would 
also like to inform people about K. Sujin's preliminary schedule for a trip 
to the USA so that those who live in the area can plan ahead (already Tom 
wants to travel to California to see her, for example). We could also 
announce the birth of our discussion group and invite people to join, if you 
want.  That would be a good beginning for a small newsletter to keep 
everyone up to date, and we can add things as they come up.  We could also 
print out copies to be sent to those without internet access.
In fact it would be even more wonderful if you could be joint editors
for the newsletter section, I will find translators for the Thai and arrange 
the format and background for you once you e-mail me the contents, unless 
you have ideas for those as well.  Any news can be sent to you so that you 
can edit them as you like.  Any hope for me at all of that happening?
Looking forward to your reply with a lot of lobha!!!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
23 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 4:44pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium qus

 
  >I've just been checking out which of Nina's letters are on the
>websites...it's great to find them here..some of my copies are so old and
>moth eaten..I can now throw out the one's you've posted on the site. Keep 
>it
>up!
>Best regards, Sarah


Sarah, if you would like to add any 'letters' to the site, any favorites of 
yours, for example, we're always avid for material(as you may have noticed)!
Amara


Speaking of the website, this morning we've completed the 'Outlook' series 
and added the 'Mental Development in Daily Life' with another beautiful 
background photo by Greg Allikas on the front page (and also a very nice 
'line' for the articles), please take a look and tell us what you think, 
everyone!
A.
______________________________________________________

 
24 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 4:32pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism

 
  To my mind, the passage from Max Weber is a good example of the fallacies 
that people commonly hold to about Buddhism.  Buddhism is regarded as a 
teaching that extolls the meditative life of a monk above all else; and the 
more ascetic the lifestyle, the greater the understanding is likely to be.

For all the reasons given in earlier messagaes, this is not the case.  I am 
reminded in particlular of the sutta in which the Buddha explains that 
although there are monks in the order who follow various ascetic practices 
(1 grain of rice a day, etc), it is not by virtue of these practices that 
they make progress in the Dhamma.

As I recall it, this sutta puts to rest completely the argument that ascetic 
practices are a necessary part of the teaching.




The first of these is that the practice involves some form of solitary 
contem.ation, namely

(a)  that The proper practice of Buddhism invloves becoming a monk
(b)  That The more ascetic the individdaul the moreprogress along the path.
(c)


>Please tell me what you think of this passage from Max Weber.
>>"India religiosity is the cradle of those religious ethics which have
>>abnegated the world, theorectically,practically, and to the greatest
>>extent. It is also in India that the "technique" which corresponds to such
>>abnegation has been most highly developed. Monkhood, as well as the 
>>typical
>>ascetic and contemplative manipulations, were not only first but also most
>>consistently developed in India."
>
>
>I sent him the following reply:
>
>Max Weber has a tendency to over-generalize.  It is true that
>Indians, long before the Buddha's times, realized that the world leads to
>kilesa through the six dvaras and tried to shut them out through meditation
>(concentration on a certain object to block all other worldly experiences)
>as well as other froms of physical abnegations (no food, clothings etc.)
>which are still practiced to these days.
>
>But the greatest religion India has ever produced, and once the most
>practiced in the world, (although now other religions have almost caught up
>with it), does not teach abnegation but comprehension, not just of the 
>world
>but of the 'self', which no other religion does. The Buddha taught that one
>need not deny the world in order to be a Buddhist, the order comprises 4
>parties: bhikkus, bhikkunis, upasakas and upasikas, and in the tripitaka, 
>he
>encouraged most people to continue as laypeople.  Only those he knew would
>become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas were ordained, as well as
>those who have attained were permitted to at once.  For them, as well as
>those who remain at home, their respective lifestyles were the normal way 
>to
>live, not abnegation.  By realizing what things really are they do not
>expect or force themselves to be different.  Those who still have desire 
>for
>the 'comforts' of the world would not deny themselves but understand that 
>in
>fact all are impermanent and not the 'self', nor would they do 'wrong' to
>others in order to get what they wish. Those who have attained certain
>levels have already completely lost their desires of certain things
>automatically, therefore no abnegation is in process for them, since it
>requires self-denial, up to the ultimate arahantship where all kilesa is
>completely eradicated, all 'self', all
>'mana'. There can be no 'self-denial' where there is no 'self'. The
>techniques he mentions would be learning, fully experiencing and attainment
>of multiple levels of wisdom in the Buddhist order, not any abnegations to
>practice.
>
>Of course India, as well as other countries, also practices other
>religions--the worship of one or multiple deities (for example
>Hinduism)--which require absolute obedience to and binding with the god or
>gods (even Jesus told people to leave everything and follow him) and all
>kinds of practices and techniques which must be easier for Max Weber or any
>other religious communities to understand.
>
>
>Any comments?
>Amara

 
25 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061166091237042125213218046024249223134102091046167121181> 
Date: Fri Jan 7, 2000 0:50am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  Amara,
a great idea as are all yr ideas but we're frantically busy w/both our jobs, 
a pending move of home & my office, J's v.time consuming medical care for 
his tumour and no Thai maids!!! So this discussion group is all we can 
manage for now.....

Good luck w/it and hope you find another more suitable editor! you're most 
welcome to mention the discussion group in it & invite people to join. Pls 
let us know any details & dates of the Calif trip when you have them. I have 
friends in S.F. who may wish to join.
Sarah



>Jonothan & Sarah,
>Would it be possible for you to contribute to a newsletter we are planning
>for the website, maybe a short report on your new year discussion?  We 
>would
>also like to inform people about K. Sujin's preliminary schedule for a trip
>to the USA so that those who live in the area can plan ahead (already Tom
>wants to travel to California to see her, for example). We could also
>announce the birth of our discussion group and invite people to join, if 
>you
>want.  That would be a good beginning for a small newsletter to keep
>everyone up to date, and we can add things as they come up.  We could also
>print out copies to be sent to those without internet access.
>In fact it would be even more wonderful if you could be joint editors
>for the newsletter section, I will find translators for the Thai and 
>arrange
>the format and background for you once you e-mail me the contents, unless
>you have ideas for those as well.  Any news can be sent to you so that you
>can edit them as you like.  Any hope for me at all of that happening?
>Looking forward to your reply with a lot of lobha!!!
>Amara

______________________________________________________

 
26 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 3:12pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism

 
  Hi everyone
Just to say that it is nice to be able to 'listen' to Dhamma discussions 
again as the opportunity does not arise that often here in England.
I was interested in the point of what do farangs mean when they talk of 
meditation, for the majority of British people their understanding of 
meditation has no comparison with that of Therevadan Buddhists who study the 
Abhidhamma. To them it is usually the attainment of tranquility and as a 
means of destressing, also when talking to Buddhists who do not study it is 
obvious that they have no understanding of vipassana and most believe that 
one must find a quiet place in which to relax inorder for it to be 
"effective".

Personally I have never read Max Weber however can I agree with Jonathan when 
he states that he over-generalizes as I find this to be the case with the 
vast majority of Buddhist writers these days including that of taking many 
things out of context - a true journalistic activity.

A final point of interest an incident this week reminded me of a discussion 
in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought that there were possibly 
only a handful of real monks in the whole of the country.
Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London there was a monk browsing 
through computer games. Plus on several occasions I see a particular monk 
browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan sangha community that close 
to me without train and bus journey). These instances I find always give me 
pause to think, combined with the many superficial books obtainable 
everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the teachings for me as they 
demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being eroded mainly from the 
inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings
Rosan

 
27 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 2:29pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  >Amara,
>a great idea as are all yr ideas but we're frantically busy w/both our 
>jobs,
>a pending move of home & my office, J's v.time consuming medical care for
>his tumour and no Thai maids!!! So this discussion group is all we can
>manage for now.....
>
>Good luck w/it and hope you find another more suitable editor! you're most
>welcome to mention the discussion group in it & invite people to join. Pls
>let us know any details & dates of the Calif trip when you have them. I 
>have
>friends in S.F. who may wish to join.
>Sarah


Sarah,
I still wish you could do it, but thanks anyway.  I really hope things turn 
out fine for you, too, even without the Thai maids!
We'll send you the details of the trip as soon as we get them but perhaps 
Ivan and Ell would be a more direct source,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
28 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jan 7, 2000 8:32am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism

 
  Good to read Rosan's astute summary of the
misunderstandings about meditation and Buddhism in
general. I just returned from a trip to the Holy
places in India: the people I talked to were very
confused about the path. Even some who study
Abhidhamma  miss the point. 

I guess this is not surprising - for so many lives we
have done everything for self. Thus when it comes to
the path we try to make our "self" better, or calmer,
or wiser, or have less desire. It really is something
radically new to walk a path that gives up the belief
in self. 
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Hi everyone
> Just to say that it is nice to be able to 'listen'
> to Dhamma discussions 
> again as the opportunity does not arise that often
> here in England.
> I was interested in the point of what do farangs
> mean when they talk of 
> meditation, for the majority of British people their
> understanding of 
> meditation has no comparison with that of Therevadan
> Buddhists who study the 
> Abhidhamma. To them it is usually the attainment of
> tranquility and as a 
> means of destressing, also when talking to Buddhists
> who do not study it is 
> obvious that they have no understanding of vipassana
> and most believe that 
> one must find a quiet place in which to relax
> inorder for it to be 
> "effective".
> 
> Personally I have never read Max Weber however can I
> agree with Jonathan when 
> he states that he over-generalizes as I find this to
> be the case with the 
> vast majority of Buddhist writers these days
> including that of taking many 
> things out of context - a true journalistic
> activity.
> 
> A final point of interest an incident this week
> reminded me of a discussion 
> in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought
> that there were possibly 
> only a handful of real monks in the whole of the
> country.
> Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London
> there was a monk browsing 
> through computer games. Plus on several occasions I
> see a particular monk 
> browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan
> sangha community that close 
> to me without train and bus journey). These
> instances I find always give me 
> pause to think, combined with the many superficial
> books obtainable 
> everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the
> teachings for me as they 
> demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being
> eroded mainly from the 
> inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings
> Rosan   
> 

 
29 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 8, 2000 5:09am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Decline of Buddhism

 
  Rosan,

it's great to hear yr contributions here..we look f/w to more! following on 
from yr comments about the declind of Buddhism...I asked K.Sujin on her 
recent trip to India whether she finds the holy places more inspiring on 
each visit (she's told us before how she finds her visits to be good 
reminders of the Buddha's virtues and teachings). She said that 'no' she 
didn't find them more inspiring this time, but she reflected more on the 
decline of the teachings....I understood this was from the behaviour of 
others at the sites, but didn't go into detail. IVAN maybe able to 
elaborate!

It's good to hear that when you see Buddhist monks not following the vinaya 
that it reinforces the teachings for you. Usually it's a condition for dosa 
(aversion) for me. Thanks for that reminder!

Sarah

>A final point of interest an incident this week reminded me of a discussion
>in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought that there were 
>possibly
>only a handful of real monks in the whole of the country.
>Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London there was a monk 
>browsing
>through computer games. Plus on several occasions I see a particular monk
>browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan sangha community that 
>close
>to me without train and bus journey). These instances I find always give me
>pause to think, combined with the many superficial books obtainable
>everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the teachings for me as they
>demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being eroded mainly from the
>inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings
>Rosan
>

 
30 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 8, 2000 5:17am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Misunderstanding of Buddhism

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism
Robert,
did you have any more useful discussions in Bkk...I expect you're back in 
Japan now. Your kids must be happy to see you!

Your comments below can be a reminder to have loving kindness (metta) and 
compassion (karuna) to those who have not been so fortunate to hear or even 
understand a little about the essence of the Buddha's teachings. It's a good 
reminder for me.

>Even some who study
>Abhidhamma  miss the point.
>
>I guess this is not surprising - for so many lives we
>have done everything for self. Thus when it comes to
>the path we try to make our "self" better, or calmer,
>or wiser, or have less desire. It really is something
>radically new to walk a path that gives up the belief
>in self.
>Robert

 
 
31 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 9, 2000 11:17am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Decline

 
  Dear Sarah,
Yes , I am now back in Japan. I had dinner with Ivan
before  left and we discussed some points. My children
were happy indeed, especially when they opened the
presents bag.
Going back to Rosans comments about the decine of
Dhamma -which as she noted comes from the inside. I
think the monks who don't keep vinaya are not such a
problem - anyone who knows even a little about
Buddhism immediately discounts them. It is the monks
who keep strict sila and who study the abhidhamma BUT
who, in very subtle ways, distort the practice who
seem most dangerous. This is counterfeit  Dhamma that
is very hard to detect - hence it tricks many people,
even those who teach it. It is hard to detect because
it mixes right and wrong and thus benefits in some
ways while hurting in others. 
I have heard Khun Sujin say on many occasions that
panna comes with detachment. This is very gradually
starting to make sense. Are we still trying to get
something for "ourselves"? Are we attached even to
kusala - again a subtle clinging. The people I met in
India seemed so attached to their practice or teacher.
I spoke to a couple of people  near the Boddhi tree in
Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
which was about sati -but apologised because she had
to start chanting . She had to repeat something
several thousand times and was concerned that this be
done on time. She said her guru told her that this
would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
dropped. 
Robert

 
32 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 1:42am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Decline

 
  Robert,

I agree that probably the greatest danger to the Teachings probably comes 
from monks who appear to keep good sila and to have studied extensively but 
yet distort the teachings, because as you say, it's harder for most people 
to detect...

With regard to attachment to kusala, I wouldn't call this subtle at all.... 
panna w/ detachment..yes we mind about the object ..we'd rather it were 
kusala..no detachment from the akusala cittas or vipakas...

And of course, there can be no saddha without right understanding 
developed....just wishful thinking.

On the subject of 'wishful thinking' , i just had a fax from Nina. i had 
sent her a few of the first pages from here to show her what we were doing 
and she liked the comment I quoted from Khun Sujin when she responded to a 
comment made about having problems with someone's character...'wishful 
thinking'..

By the way, Nina said she's very busy w/ her writing now, but is encouraging 
us on the internet!
Sarah

  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick
>Going back to Rosans comments about the decine of
>Dhamma -which as she noted comes from the inside. I
>think the monks who don't keep vinaya are not such a
>problem - anyone who knows even a little about
>Buddhism immediately discounts them. It is the monks
>who keep strict sila and who study the abhidhamma BUT
>who, in very subtle ways, distort the practice who
>seem most dangerous. This is counterfeit  Dhamma that
>is very hard to detect - hence it tricks many people,
>even those who teach it. It is hard to detect because
>it mixes right and wrong and thus benefits in some
>ways while hurting in others.
>I have heard Khun Sujin say on many occasions that
>panna comes with detachment. This is very gradually
>starting to make sense. Are we still trying to get
>something for "ourselves"? Are we attached even to
>kusala - again a subtle clinging. The people I met in
>India seemed so attached to their practice or teacher.
>I spoke to a couple of people  near the Boddhi tree in
>Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
>which was about sati -but apologised because she had
>to start chanting . She had to repeat something
>several thousand times and was concerned that this be
>done on time. She said her guru told her that this
>would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
>of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
>attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
>that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
>dropped.
>Robert
>__________________________________________________


 
33 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 9, 2000 10:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  Robert wrote:
>I spoke to a couple of people  near the Boddhi tree in
>Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
>which was about sati -but apologised because she had
>to start chanting . She had to repeat something
>several thousand times and was concerned that this be
>done on time. She said her guru told her that this
>would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
>of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
>attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
>that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
>dropped.

This is so true.  The need to see our own attachments and wrong view.  In a 
way, this is what the game is all about.

And I think, going back to an earlier theme, that meditation as it is 
generally understood is on a different tack.  For many, the purpose of 
practising meditation is to have a particular kind of wholesome mental 
state.  For these people, any unwholesomeness arising is not a desirable 
thing.

We are fortunate enough to understand that a moment of understanding, at 
whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment or wrong view or akusala 
of any kind arising is a very valuable moment.   In this sense, we can be 
happy to see more akusala!

______________________________________________________

 
34 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 10:44am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  Dear Jonothon,
Your comments are spot on:> "We are fortunate enough
to understand that a moment
> of understanding, at 
> whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment
> or wrong view or akusala 
> of any kind arising is a very valuable moment.   In
> this sense, we can be 
> happy to see more akusala!"

The path is completely different from what I thought
it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a
Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be)
simply an object for understanding, a validation of
the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that
any and all  objects - strong fear, the most intense
pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm,
sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any
dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna. 

Sarah, would you be able to send me the tapes of our
talks in Bangkok earlier this month. If you like I
will edit and send on to Nina?

A point that came up in those discusions: it was
suggested that seeing and colour are harder to
understand as not-self because when seeing we
immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it
falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
change so much.
But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
perceive heat or hardness we can  easily know that it
is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
slight idea of something being there?  We may not
think of person or table but even if we think of
hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
element?  Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
complex, evanescent conditions making up
sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
could comment and elucidate on this.
Robert
> 
>

 
35 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:27pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >The path is completely different from what I thought
>it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a
>Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be)
>simply an object for understanding, a validation of
>the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that
>any and all  objects - strong fear, the most intense
>pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm,
>sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any
>dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna.

Same for me.  However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level 
at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects 
are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others;  and strong 
akusual definitely comes within the "others"!

______________________________________________________

 
36 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:47pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  Robert said:
>A point that came up in those discusions: it was
>suggested that seeing and colour are harder to
>understand as not-self because when seeing we
>immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
>on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
>accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
>through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it
>falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
>change so much.
>But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
>perceive heat or hardness we can  easily know that it
>is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
>slight idea of something being there?  We may not
>think of person or table but even if we think of
>hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
>still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
>who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
>element?  Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
>the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
>are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
>complex, evanescent conditions making up
>sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
>could comment and elucidate on this.

My comment during the discussions was that it was easier for me to 
understand at an intellectual level that what is happening through the ear 
door is that an object (sound) is impinging on the earsense and being 
experienced by citta (hearing), than it is to understand the same thing in 
relation to the eyedoor.

Take speech, for example.  It is easy to accept that sound is experienced as 
sound and that it is thinking that identifies the sound as belonging to a 
particular speaker and carrying a particular meaning.

A similar analogy in the case of visible object and seeing is much more 
dificult for me to grasp, even at a purely intellectual level.

So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is 
mentioned first in the list every time.


______________________________________________________

 
37 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 11:03am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >Same for me.  However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level
>at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects
>are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others;  and strong
>akusual definitely comes within the "others"!


I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange 
tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment 
or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant, 
and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the 
one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation.  It was of 
course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more 
memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it 
would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not 
be fun!
But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!) 
that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise, 
in fact much more, outside crises.
The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at 
any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding.
And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
38 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 8:39am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> >Same for me.  However, despite understanding this
> (at an intellectual level
> >at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit
> view that certain objects
> >are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than
> others;  and strong
> >akusual definitely comes within the "others"!
> 
> 
> I think it depends on our individual accumulations,
> I have a strange 
> tendency (which used to worry me a little) to
> suddenly be aware in a moment 
> or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be
> clearer for an instant, 
> and then the chaos would continue, but then I
> usually would seem to be the 
> one with the "presence of mind" in that particular
> situation.  It was of 
> course better than if the opposite had happened, but
> because it was more 
> memorable to me than other things, for a long time I
> was worried that it 
> would take a crises for me to have the experience,
> that certainly would not 
> be fun!
> But then I realized (after quite a few years of
> worrying about it, mind!) 
> that it was my defective memory, that other moments
> of awareness do arise, 
> in fact much more, outside crises.
> The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati,
> it can really arise at 
> any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the
> right understanding.
> And one very good reminder is this group and our
> discussions, I think!
> Amara
> 
> Very interesting___Amara, I have a similar pattern
.Because the awareness cuts the impact of the problem
it is more noticeable than at other times.
Robert

Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
group. Have Ivan and ell joined?
Robert___________________________________________________


 
39 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:57am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >...................... It is true that when we
>perceive heat or hardness we can  easily know that it
>is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
>slight idea of something being there?  We may not
>think of person or table but even if we think of
>hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
>still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
>who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
>element?  Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
>the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
>are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
>complex, evanescent conditions making up
>sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
>could comment and elucidate on this.
>Robert
> >

I agree. As soon as there is any idea (not necessarily in words) of 
something, it's thinking of a concept rather than awareness of the rupa 
which is experienced. It follows so quickly! Whenever there is an idea of 
one doorway being easier for awareness, such as the meditators who start 
with bodily feelings for example, there is usually the idea of self and 
control and selecting an object. It's also true, though, that some realities 
are easier to understand intellectually and as we know, some realities can 
never be the object of awareness....so of course, it all depends on the 
understanding when we say things...
Does this make any sense?
Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
40 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:06am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  >From: "Jonothan Abbott" 

>So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is
>mentioned first in the list every time.
>
>
I've heard Khun Sujin explain the reason for this is that all day long, 
whenever we have our eyes open, there is seeing. But there isn't tasting all 
day long for example.
______________________________________________________

 
41 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:10am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots
>Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 03:03:24 PST
>
>
>I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange
>tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment
>or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant,
>and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the
>one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation.  It was of
>course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more
>memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it
>would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not
>be fun!
>But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!)
>that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise,
>in fact much more, outside crises.
>The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at
>any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding.
>And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think!
>Amara
>
Interesting and funny story!  Of course, in between any moments of awareness 
there's bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, especially in 
the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow w/understanding 
too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful.
Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
42 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:14am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
>group. Have Ivan and ell joined?
>Robert___________________________________________________
>
>yes, Ivan & Elle are hopefully reading & I'm sure will post SOON. Alan also 
>joined a couple of days ago & Tom & Bev just joined this eve. (Amara & 
>Jonothan knew Tom in Bkk ages back).
S.
______________________________________________________

 
43 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 0:29pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  >>So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is
>>mentioned first in the list every time.
>>
>>
>I've heard Khun Sujin explain the reason for this is that all day long,
>whenever we have our eyes open, there is seeing. But there isn't tasting 
>all
>day long for example.


If I remember correctly, it seems that bodily feelings have the 'strongest' 
impact on us, because all other senses can cause upekkha vedana to arise, 
except for the bodysense, which causes uniquely pleasant or unpleasent 
feelings right away.
K. Sujin explained to me that it was because they were the mahabhutarupa 
meeting and therefore cause the strongest reactions for us.
Which makes me think that the order in which the Buddha spoke of the senses 
are more of the practical physically descending order: eyes are placed 
highest on the human build, then ears, nose, tongue, bodysense--though it's 
not only at the body but mainly there, and the mind which can arise at any 
doorway + the heartbase.
Of course this is purely my speculation...
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
44 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 9:50pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Greetings to all from Alan in England!

I would like to go off on a complete tangent to your discussions! About a
year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got the sack for giving the
following quote to The Times newspaper during a profile interview.

"You and I have been physically given two hands and two legs and
half-decent brains. Some people have not been born like that for a reason.
The karma is working from another lifetime. I have nothing to hide about
that. It is not only people with disabilities. What you sow, you have to
reap."

There was a huge press outcry and 4 days later he was sacked. On my web
site (www.zolag.co.uk) under the Question section (Who was sacked...) there
is  more detail of The Times coverage.

Do you think his speech is wrong speech?

The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree?


I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to
The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the
buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree?

Best wishes Alan

 
45 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 3:57pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  About a
>year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got the sack for giving the
>following quote to The Times newspaper during a profile interview.
>
>"You and I have been physically given two hands and two legs and
>half-decent brains. Some people have not been born like that for a reason.
>The karma is working from another lifetime. I have nothing to hide about
>that. It is not only people with disabilities. What you sow, you have to
>reap."
>
>There was a huge press outcry and 4 days later he was sacked. On my web
>site (www.zolag.co.uk) under the Question section (Who was sacked...) there
>is  more detail of The Times coverage.
>
I agree with G. H. and you completely.
>Do you think his speech is wrong speech?
>
I think he was stating something no one has been able to dis-prove, rather 
the opposite, though very difficult to understand, to blame or credit 
everything on or to a higher power is much simpler.
>The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree?
>
>
Not at all. or they would not have caused trouble for him, or at least be 
impartial.
>I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to
>The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the
>buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree?
>
Absolutely not.  I think you had the right like everyone else to express 
your opinion, and correctly defend your beliefs.
I hope they didn't make you suffer the consequences as badly as did the 
coach?
It is great to hear from you!  By the way, I've changed the links,
& thanks for everything again,
Amara

 
46 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:38pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >It is great to hear from you!  By the way, I've changed the links,
>& thanks for everything again,
>Amara


Has everyone visited Alan's new site at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ?  It's 
really compact and fast-paced.  Great work, Alan!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
47 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 9:18am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Dear alan,
About Hoddle:
About a
> year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got
> the sack for giving the
> following quote to The Times newspaper during a
> profile interview.
> 
> "You and I have been physically given two hands and
> two legs and
> half-decent brains. Some people have not been born
> like that for a reason.
> The karma is working from another lifetime. I have
> nothing to hide about
> that. It is not only people with disabilities. What
> you sow, you have to
> reap."
> 
> 
Let us face it - the understanding and acceptance of
conditions including kamma in western society is
almost zero. People far prefer to believe they are
either the victims  of blind chance or a capricious
God then too think there is any connection between
ethics and future results. 
Having said that Hoddle's comments seem to be rather 
callous. Does he think he is somehow better than a
disabled person? In that case he doesn't see the full
picture. Conditions are so complex - now we are
enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta
could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be
president of the world but if they don't develop
understanding they are headed towards future pain.
Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but
are increasing their confidence in kamma and
conditions -their future is bright. 
All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess
lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should
not be surprised if their situation changes
dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use
kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people.

Still, I support Hoddle's freedom to say this and it
may even help to bring the possibility of kamma to the
attention of a few.
Robert

 
48 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 2:35am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >Conditions are so complex - now we are
>enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta
>could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be
>president of the world but if they don't develop
>understanding they are headed towards future pain.
>Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but
>are increasing their confidence in kamma and
>conditions -their future is bright.
>All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess
>lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should
>not be surprised if their situation changes
>dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use
>kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people.

I don't think that I am biased for or against a handicapped person, but it 
is true that everything happens according to what we have accumulated in the 
past as well as what we are accumulating at the present time.  About the 
patisanthi citta, I have not long ago finished translating 'Paramathadhamma' 
and I quote from pp. 249-260 (in the website it would be in the Part IIa 
Citta ch.14)

The patisandhi-cittas in the human plane and that of the apaya-bhumi are 
results of different kammas.  The patisandhi-cittas of those in the 
apaya-bhumi are akusala-vipaka-cittas, the result of akusala-kammas causing 
births in the hell plane, in the pitivisaya-bhumi, in the asurakaya-bhumi or 
the animal plane. The patisandhi-cittas of those born humans or devas of 
different levels are kusala-vipaka-cittas, the results of kusala-kammas 
causing births in the sugati-bhumis.

	Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human plane) is kusala-vipaka, some 
people are born innately handicapped because the kusala-vipaka-cittas that 
performed the function of patisandhi are the results of kusala-kammas 
without panna-cetasika arising with them.  The kusala-kamma must also be of 
a very weak kind for the kusala-vipaka-citta that performed the 
patisandhi-kicca not to be composed with sobhana-cetasika, or it does not 
arise with alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc.  Since it is the result of 
a very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma would beleaguer (the 
person) and render him deformed from birth.

	Among those who are born without disabilities, all are born distinctly, by 
family, rank and retinue because the kusala-vipaka-cittas that perform the 
function of patisandhi differ according to the strength of the kusala-kammas 
that are the causes.  If a patisandhi-citta results from kusala-kamma with 
panna-cetasika of a weak kind or with none at all, the patisandhi-citta that 
is kusala-vipaka would arise with sobhana-cetasikas together with two hetus, 
namely alobha-cetasika and adosa-cetasika, as davi-hetuka-puggala, or a 
person whose patisandhi-citta is without panna-cetasika arising 
concurrently.  That person would be unable to
attain jhana or lokuttara-dhamma in that lifetime.

	Those whose patisandhi-cittas result from kamma with panna and whose 
patisandhi-cittas arise with panna-cetasika concurrently are 
ti-hetuka-puggala because there are three hetus namely, alobha-cetasika, 
adosa-cetasika and panna (amoha) -cetasika arising concurrently.  Having 
heard the dhamma they would examine and understand it and be able to develop 
panna until they achieve jhana-citta or realize the four ariya-sacca-dhamma 
and attain nibbana and become ariya-puggala in that lifetime according to 
their accumulated conditions.  However, one should not be overconfident.  
Those who are intelligent, with patisandhi-cittas that are ti-hetuka, but 
neglect developing kusala, and not listening to the dhamma, would be wise in 
worldly matters, well-educated or otherwise skillful but would not develop 
panna in the dhamma and would not know the characteristics of realities as 
they truly are.

End quote.

We must admit that we have all of us been pretty lucky in this life to have 
been born without disabilities and to have found the Dhamma at all in this 
day and age, especially from such a source.  Now it's up to us to do our 
best to keep accumulating the right conditions for further panna.  As I 
wrote another person recently, 'The dhamma of the good side flow together, 
help each other, lead to one another, as do the bad.  It is very difficult 
to go against the current, which is why one must accumulate as much kusala 
as possible.'  At least we have K. Sujin--and each other!!
Amara


______________________________________________________

 
49 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 11:23am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Good to see the accuracy of abhidhamma:
> > 	Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human
plane)
> is kusala-vipaka, some 
> people are born innately handicapped because the
> kusala-vipaka-cittas that 
> performed the function of patisandhi are the results
> of kusala-kammas 
> without panna-cetasika arising with them.  The
> kusala-kamma must also be of 
> a very weak kind for the kusala-vipaka-citta that
> performed the 
> patisandhi-kicca not to be composed with
> sobhana-cetasika, or it does not 
> arise with alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc. 
> Since it is the result of 
> a very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma
> would beleaguer (the 
> person) and render him deformed from birth.
> 
It is also true that one may have done much good but
at the time of death an akusala kamma arises (maybe
from a thousand lives or more ago) and because of that
one is born in a bad realm. This is somewhat
frightening. The simile of the blind turtle suggests
that it is very, very hard to climb back up. As I
remember it though, the commentary explains that this
especially applies to those with strong miccha-ditthi
who deny the truth of kamma and vipaka - they become
rooted in the round of samsara - because they
habitually favour this denial of ethical cause and
effect. 
On the other hand one with many parami may quicky
change their status. For example, a frog listened to
the Buddha - he couldn't fully understand - but had
the feeling that this was good. He died and was born
in a deva realm, listened to the Buddha more and
became a sotapanna. There are many points to consider
here: but one is if we find ourselves having conceit
because we compare our present good situation with
others in difficult circumstances then we can refect
that the situation could reverse in the blink of an
eye - a good antidote for hubris.
Robert
	

 
50 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 5:16am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  There are many points to consider
>here: but one is if we find ourselves having conceit
>because we compare our present good situation with
>others in difficult circumstances then we can refect
>that the situation could reverse in the blink of an
>eye - a good antidote for hubris.
>Robert

With the right conditions anything can happen.  And the faintest form of 
mana can be eradicated only by the Arahanta, so I guess some degree of 
conceit is always involved.  It could very well be hubris as much as low 
self esteem.
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
51 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 10:58pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Great to hear from you hear Alan and lots of very useful comments & quotes, 
Robert & Amara..When I was awake the other night I found myself reflecting 
on comments from this list instead of my usual negative thoughts about not 
sleeping, work, j's tumour etc...most helpful.

Following on from R's first point below, there is also the point of saying 
the right thing to the right person at the right time...of course w/regard 
to the dhamm, we all make a lot of mistakes in this regard. A subject such 
as the disabilties is a very sensitive topic to most people and it was 
probably very inaapropriate unless the listeners had some comprehension of 
kamma and conditions, even if it was correct in a general sense. I'm 
reminded  in our recent discussion in Bangkok when one of our Thai friends 
said that she kept trying to tell her father about realities and he just 
wasn't interested and she was getting quite impatient with 
him....attachment!   Still, only the Buddha got it right all the time!

Talking about the conceit of one's good fortune, we were commenting in 
August one day about how good it was that we were both in such good health 
for a change. One week later we had the diagnosis of J's tumour. At first we 
were told it was a really deadly tumour (literally), then told a couple of 
days later by a specialist that it was just a 'lump' to monitor and not 
worry about and then something in between just as we were leaving for the 
airport another day later when the path results came in.  No change in the 
akusala vipaka thr' body sense but lots of different stories! We don't even 
know about the next moment, let alone the next lifetime.

Thanks again
Sarah





>Having said that Hoddle's comments seem to be rather
>callous. Does he think he is somehow better than a
>disabled person? In that case he doesn't see the full
>picture. Conditions are so complex - now we are
>enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta
>could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be
>president of the world but if they don't develop
>understanding they are headed towards future pain.
>Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but
>are increasing their confidence in kamma and
>conditions -their future is bright.
>All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess
>lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should
>not be surprised if their situation changes
>dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use
>kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people.
>
>Still, I support Hoddle's freedom to say this and it
>may even help to bring the possibility of kamma to the
>attention of a few.
>Robert
>__________________________________________________

 
52 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 8:04pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Alan,

Welcome to the list!  And thanks for your provocative posting!  Here are my 
thoughts.

>Do you think his speech is wrong speech?

The fact that what was said seems in accordance with the dhamma as taught 
does not make it right speech.  There may be no understanding at any 
meaningful level.  There may be wrong view (belief in kamma together with 
the idea of a soul, as held by some religions).  There may be conceit or 
other akusula motive.  As I recall, one of the attributes of right speech is 
that it tends to harmony among people, is non-divisive.  Was this the case 
here?

I was going to add a bit about knowing the appropriate thing to say at the 
appropriate time (timely speech), but I see that Sarah has already mentioned 
that.  Reminds me of a time I went to visit a colleague who was terminally 
ill in hospital with prostate cancer.  I tried to give some useful 
reminders;  I mentioned the inevitability of death.  He told me thanks, but 
save it!

>The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree?

They probably mean that if it's newsworthy, they'll publish it, regardless 
of the religion of the speaker.  So if the speaker had made a similar remark 
but said that it was God's will, they would still have published it.

>I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to
>The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the
>buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree?

Of course not.  But sometimes we have to accept that nothing we can do will 
have any effect.

All the best.
Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
53 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 9:54pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of
these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject
and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone.

Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the
wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly
put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this
statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second
point.
The Times leader article is wrong.

 "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of
their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental
doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has
barely half-understood."

Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition
of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a
human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it
is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are
born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said.
This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better
headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used
something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred
quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes.

Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
are attacking Buddhism.

'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the
less disgraceful.'
'bizarre brand of spiritualism'

Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'.
To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe
in.


The Times are a religious persector aren't they?


Best wishes, Alan

 
54 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:33pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?
>Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:58:50 CST
>
>
>Great to hear from you hear Alan and lots of very useful comments & quotes,
>Robert & Amara..When I was awake the other night I found myself reflecting
>on comments from this list instead of my usual negative thoughts about not
>sleeping, work, j's tumour etc...most helpful.
>
>Following on from R's first point below, there is also the point of saying
>the right thing to the right person at the right time...of course w/regard
>to the dhamm, we all make a lot of mistakes in this regard. A subject such
>as the disabilties is a very sensitive topic to most people and it was
>probably very inaapropriate unless the listeners had some comprehension of
>kamma and conditions, even if it was correct in a general sense. I'm
>reminded  in our recent discussion in Bangkok when one of our Thai friends
>said that she kept trying to tell her father about realities and he just
>wasn't interested and she was getting quite impatient with
>him....attachment!   Still, only the Buddha got it right all the time!
>
>Talking about the conceit of one's good fortune, we were commenting in
>August one day about how good it was that we were both in such good health
>for a change. One week later we had the diagnosis of J's tumour. At first 
>we
>were told it was a really deadly tumour (literally), then told a couple of
>days later by a specialist that it was just a 'lump' to monitor and not
>worry about and then something in between just as we were leaving for the
>airport another day later when the path results came in.  No change in the
>akusala vipaka thr' body sense but lots of different stories! We don't even
>know about the next moment, let alone the next lifetime.
>
>Thanks again
>Sarah

Thanks to you for the many useful reminders,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
55 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:48pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of
>these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
>Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
>quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject
>and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone.
>
>Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the
>wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly
>put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this
>statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second
>point.
>The Times leader article is wrong.
>
>  "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of
>their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental
>doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has
>barely half-understood."
>
>Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition
>of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a
>human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it
>is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are
>born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said.
>This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better
>headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used
>something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred
>quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes.
>
>Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
>place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
>are attacking Buddhism.
>
>'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the
>less disgraceful.'
>'bizarre brand of spiritualism'
>
>Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'.
>To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe
>in.
>
>
>The Times are a religious persector aren't they?
>
>
>Best wishes, Alan


It all reminds me of Rosan's remark about 'taking things out of context' and 
its being 'a true journalistic behavior' or something in that order.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
56 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 0:16am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Alan,
so, ok. we all agree that the press misquote(even 'quality papers'!)
and go for sensational headings...as Jonothan said, even if it had been so 
and so says'According to God...' it would have been printed if it helped 
make a good story and sold papers.

But it's not just the press... people distort the teachings of the Buddha 
all the time out of ignorance or for any number of motives...Why do we mind, 
is the question here?

Why do you mind what the Times writes? We cannot be responsible for what 
everyone says and what about our motives and cittas when we feel strongly 
and mind about others' ignorance and kilesa?

Last year i was with a group of girlfreinds doing yoga. One friend asked 
another who is a keen 'Buddhist' meditator and follower of Chinese and 
Tibetan teachings about the Path. She was giving some strange explanations 
and as I hadn't been consulted, I kept quiet but became more and more 
exasperated. At a certain point when the questioner was told she had to get 
special approval and pass a test before she could study the abhidhamma, I 
just lost my cool and shouted out 'absolute nonsense'. My display of dosa 
(aversion) was the problem  I realised afterwards, however much I wanted to 
justify it!

Sarah

By the way, as far as I'm concerned I think it's fine to use anything from 
this site for yr web page, but if you quote anyone, maybe best to check 
w/them first?

>
>Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of
>these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
>Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
>quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject
>and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone.
>
>Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the
>wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly
>put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this
>statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second
>point.
>The Times leader article is wrong.
>
>  "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of
>their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental
>doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has
>barely half-understood."
>
>Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition
>of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a
>human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it
>is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are
>born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said.
>This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better
>headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used
>something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred
>quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes.
>
>Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
>place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
>are attacking Buddhism.
>
>'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the
>less disgraceful.'
>'bizarre brand of spiritualism'
>
>Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'.
>To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe
>in.
>
>
>The Times are a religious persector aren't they?
>
>
>Best wishes, Alan
>

______________________________________________________

 
57 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 14, 2000 9:24pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  Amara wrote:

>If I remember correctly, it seems that bodily feelings have the 'strongest'
>impact on us, because all other senses can cause upekkha vedana to arise,
>except for the bodysense, which causes uniquely pleasant or unpleasent
>feelings right away.
>K. Sujin explained to me that it was because they were the mahabhutarupa
>meeting and therefore cause the strongest reactions for us.


By chance I came across the following passage in Nina's "Cetasikas":

The Paramatta Manjusa, a commentary on the Visuddhimagga, explains why 
kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant 
feeling.  This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow';  there is 
the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense...
By way of simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible 
impact on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the 
relevant senses.  When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it 
with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of 
the violence of the impact.  In the case, however, of the other 
panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of 
cottonwool.  Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling.
The ‘impact’ of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with 
the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysesnse.
(ends)

This seems to be along the same lines as Khun Sujin's reference to the 
mahabhuttarupas.

For those who didn't know, "Cetasikas" is now beautifully published in book 
form by Alan.  I am reading through it again, with much benefit.

Jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
58 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 14, 2000 1:59pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >By the way, as far as I'm concerned I think it's fine to use anything from
>this site for yr web page, but if you quote anyone, maybe best to check
>w/them first?


For me it's fine too!

Speaking of websites, I have put up the revised 'Letters from Nina' as 
copied from Alan's Zolag, as Nina told me to, and have just today finished 
adding what is probably the web's shortest newsletter (sob!) about the 
latest date (as of this morning, according to Ell) of K. Sujin's American 
trip.  I would really appreciate any comments and especially ADDITIONAL 
ARTICLES for the poor thing, please!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
59 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 5:20pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Newsletter

 
  We have had a number of new members join this past week.  Welcome.  We look 
forward to seeing a posting from you soon!

A couple of tips.

-	You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives.

-	Every new member receives in their email account a copy of each message 
posted to the list as it is posted.  This is the default setting.  The 
setting can be changed so that you multiple messages are received in a 
single posting.  You may find this more convenient.  (Some members even 
prefer to keep a separate web-based (free) email account for the list.)

If you would like to invite anyone to join the group, the simplest way is to 
suggest that they send a (blank) message to 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>
Alternatively, you may send their email address to me and I will issue an 
invitation from the list.

By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting 
advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements.

I hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting.

Jonothan

(Any questions on the above, feel free to email me direct)

______________________________________________________

 
60 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 0:27pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  >-	You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives.

>By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting
>advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements.


Jonothan,
How does one access the archives again?
It would be much more compact without commercials.
Amara
 
61 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 9:14pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  > Jonothan,
> How does one access the archives again?
> It would be much more compact without commercials.
> Amara


Amara,

It's easy.  Go to http://www.egroups.com/ and log in.  You will need to
supply your email account and the password you gave when first
registering.  Then you should be able to see the group's list.  If not,
click on the "My space" button.  Open the list and go to "Messages".

You can also post messages or replies from the list.

The list is also where you can change the settings for your
subscription.

Happy browsing.

Jonothan

 
62 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:54am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  Mrs. Joan Adibi of Pittsburgh may like to jump on the band wagon. Her email
is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233113185158117015147186056249208177100163
She met Ajarn Sujin a fwe year ago when she showed her interest in
meditation in concentration sense. Now she is back home and lose interest
in Dhamma to some extent. Will you bring her back?
---------------------


At 09:20 15/1/00 GMT, you wrote:
>We have had a number of new members join this past week.  Welcome.  We look 
>forward to seeing a posting from you soon!
>
>A couple of tips.
>
>-	You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives.
>
>-	Every new member receives in their email account a copy of each message 
>posted to the list as it is posted.  This is the default setting.  The 
>setting can be changed so that you multiple messages are received in a 
>single posting.  You may find this more convenient.  (Some members even 
>prefer to keep a separate web-based (free) email account for the list.)
>
>If you would like to invite anyone to join the group, the simplest way is to 
>suggest that they send a (blank) message to 
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>
>Alternatively, you may send their email address to me and I will issue an 
>invitation from the list.
>
>By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting 
>advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements.
>
>I hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting.
>
>Jonothan
>
>(Any questions on the above, feel free to email me direct)
>
>______________________________________________________

 
63 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:58am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be so?
What does it mean 'self'?
------------------------------------------

At 05:14 15/1/00 -0800, you wrote:
> 
>> Jonothan,
>> How does one access the archives again?
>> It would be much more compact without commercials.
>> Amara
>
>
>Amara,
>
>It's easy.  Go to http://www.egroups.com/ and log in.  You will need to
>supply your email account and the password you gave when first
>registering.  Then you should be able to see the group's list.  If not,
>click on the "My space" button.  Open the list and go to "Messages".
>
>You can also post messages or replies from the list.
>
>The list is also where you can change the settings for your
>subscription.
>
>Happy browsing.
>
>Jonothan
>
>

 
64 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 3:18am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  >Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be 
>so?
>What does it mean 'self'?


The self is called atta in Pali and it is the distinction between what 
everyone takes as I or me and the rest of the world (people, all objects and 
animals).  In that sense one is 'selfish' all the time because one has never 
known, throughout the infinity of lifetimes one had been born that one (or 
any other being) is only a conglomerate of citta, cetasika and rupa, not the 
'self'.  Which is of course unrational, but beyond the reasoning of those 
who had never heard the Buddha's teachings.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
65 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 3:39am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  >Mrs. Joan Adibi of Pittsburgh may like to jump on the band wagon. Her email
>is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233113185158117015147186056249208177100163
>She met Ajarn Sujin a fwe year ago when she showed her interest in
>meditation in concentration sense. Now she is back home and lose interest
>in Dhamma to some extent. Will you bring her back?


Welcome to the group, your friends are most welcome too.  You can try 
sending her the subscription e-mail address or ask Jonothan to do so.  Glad 
you finally made it on the list and to see your questions!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
66 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:21pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  >Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be 
>so?
>What does it mean 'self'?

Interesting questions.  "Self" can have many different meanings.  In the 
broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this (ie, our own) person or 
being, as distinct from other persons or beings.  It has this meaning in the 
terms "selfish" or "self-interest".

Are people like this all the time?  If there is selfishness or self-interest 
in our own life, we can assume that other people's experience will be more 
or less the same.

Is it rational?  Selfishness and ideas of a self arise beause of ignorance 
of the true nature of realities.  In this sense, it is indeed rational.  We 
are all very ignorant of what is happening right now, and hopeful that 
participation in this group will be a condition for a little less ignorance!



______________________________________________________

 
67 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 10:55am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan on atta. May I ask
more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from the time of Lord Buddha
more than 2500 years ago to the present time of consumerism? Is it innate
or social determinism? Or both?
-------------------------------


At 10:21 16/1/00 GMT, you wrote:
>>Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be 
>>so?
>>What does it mean 'self'?
>
>Interesting questions.  "Self" can have many different meanings.  In the 
>broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this (ie, our own) person or 
>being, as distinct from other persons or beings.  It has this meaning in the 
>terms "selfish" or "self-interest".
>
>Are people like this all the time?  If there is selfishness or self-interest 
>in our own life, we can assume that other people's experience will be more 
>or less the same.
>
>Is it rational?  Selfishness and ideas of a self arise beause of ignorance 
>of the true nature of realities.  In this sense, it is indeed rational.  We 
>are all very ignorant of what is happening right now, and hopeful that 
>participation in this group will be a condition for a little less ignorance!
>
>
>

 
68 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 1:24pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  dear Khun  Tananarong,
It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round
of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The
good news is that there is an end, it can be
eradicated
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
> 
> Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan
> on atta. May I ask
> more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from
> the time of Lord Buddha
> more than 2500 years ago to the present time of
> consumerism? Is it innate
> or social determinism? Or both?
> -------------------------------
> 
> 
> At 10:21 16/1/00 GMT, you wrote:
> >>Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the
> time? Is it rational to be 
> >>so?
> >>What does it mean 'self'?
> >
> >Interesting questions.  "Self" can have many
> different meanings.  In the 
> >broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this
> (ie, our own) person or 
> >being, as distinct from other persons or beings. 
> It has this meaning in the 
> >terms "selfish" or "self-interest".
> >
> >Are people like this all the time?  If there is
> selfishness or self-interest 
> >in our own life, we can assume that other people's
> experience will be more 
> >or less the same.
> >
> >Is it rational?  Selfishness and ideas of a self
> arise beause of ignorance 
> >of the true nature of realities.  In this sense, it
> is indeed rational.  We 
> >are all very ignorant of what is happening right
> now, and hopeful that 
> >participation in this group will be a condition for
> a little less ignorance!

 
69 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 5:52pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Amara's Dhammastudy website

 
  >Speaking of websites, I have put up the revised 'Letters from Nina' as
>copied from Alan's Zolag, as Nina told me to, and have just today finished
>adding what is probably the web's shortest newsletter (sob!) about the
>latest date (as of this morning, according to Ell) of K. Sujin's American
>trip.  I would really appreciate any comments and especially ADDITIONAL
>ARTICLES for the poor thing, please!
>Amara

For those of you who do not yet know, Amara has put together a comprehensive 
DhammaStudy website (in Thai and English)which carries many of Nina'a 
articles and other interesting snippets.  Great graphics, too.  It can be 
found at
http://www.dhammastudy.com./
______________________________________________________

 
70 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 7:45pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth and control

 
  Yesterday I had lunch with a Buddhist friend. I was
regaling her with stories of my trip to India.
Comparing the position of cows in New Zealand and
India I joked “ if you are going to be reborn as a cow
avoid New Zealand”.
She immediately said “no choice , it depends on
conditions”.
Absolutely true. And to those who have studied so
obvious as be almost trite. 
It is surprising though how few Buddhist realize this.
A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing
mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully
conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should
be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of
conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my
first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was
really worried about dying suddenly and not being
aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be
avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of
misunderstanding.
Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in
America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said
he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be
sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate.
These ideas come about because of the belief in
control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into
existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is
an entity. We may not have deep understanding of
Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a
few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it
ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through
wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our
daily life.
The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon
first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept
that the mind was changing and that it depended on
conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not
even in theory. It was after learning about the
elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that
the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense.
Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex
set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time
and is then replaced by another eyesense. The
conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its
brief existence are themselves conditioned by other
equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends
on the eyesense  as well as other ephemeral
conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many
more conditions but I think this illustrates the
point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could
control it? 
It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into
the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to
become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether
we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn.
Conditions will take care of all that by themselves.
Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves”
out of the picture.
Robert


__________________________________________________

 
71 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 8:22pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] List News

 
  Posts to the list
Please use an appropriate subject heading for messages
and replies.  This makes it easier to follow different
threads, or to browse the archives later.
For replies, delete any part of the original message
that is not directly relevant to your reply.  This
saves the reader from having to scroll through large
chunks of text.

Invitations to join the list
If you would know anyone who would like to join the
group, please tell them to send a (blank) message to
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>

New members
Welcome.  If you haven't yet posted to the list,
please consider a short Hello.  Other members would
like to know who you are.

Host website
To access the list on the eGroups website, go to
<http://www.egroups.com/> and log in.  You will need to
supply your email account and the password you gave
when first registering.  Then you should be able to
see the group's list.  If not, click on the "My space"
button

Archives
To browse old messages in the group's archives, follow
the instructions under "Host website" above.  Open the
list and go to "Messages".

Your subscription
You can change the way you receive postings from the
list.  Follow the instructions under "Host website"
above.  Go to "group info", then click on "Modify
Subscription".

Links
Members Amara and Alan both manage websites with heaps
of materials and information and stunning pics.  Visit
them at
www.dhammastudy.com
www.zolag.co.uk


We hope you are all finding the list useful and
interesting.

Jonothan & Sarah

(Any questions on the above, contact Jonothan at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233234237093202015199065056124253239105139218183041 )



 
72 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 4:59am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  this is a somewhat frivolous question...

Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the tumour 
on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had 
some excellent results..

BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be successful, 
you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said 
to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a 
belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy 
Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the 
'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their 
'wrong' view??

Sarah

>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self
>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:24:58 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>
>dear Khun  Tananarong,
>It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round
>of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The
>good news is that there is an end, it can be
>eradicated
>Robert
>--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan
> > on atta. May I ask
> > more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from
> > the time of Lord Buddha
> > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of
> > consumerism? Is it innate
> > or social determinism? Or both?
> > -------------------------------
> >

 
73 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:05am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self

 
  K.Thanon, my answers to yr qus.
>
>Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time?
       Most the time

)Is it rational to be so?
       It's natural

>What does it mean 'self'?
       Ignorance

Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
74 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 3:16pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  >Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the 
>tumour
>on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had
>some excellent results..
>
>BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be 
>successful,
>you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said>to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a
>belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy
>Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the
>'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their
>'wrong' view??
>
>Sarah


Again, I think it all depends on the individual's accumulations, and as with 
all our accumulations, one never knows (except for the Buddha) which ones 
are going to produce their results next.
I believe one should always do the best one can in any situation, for 
example a friend said that if one believed in kamma then one wouldn't help 
anyone because what happened is their Kamma.  I said we can never know if it 
is also their kamma that we happened by to help them (another of the rare 
occasions for karuna to arise, as opposed to just metta).  In this case one 
never knows what the result may be, and since it doesn't hurt anyone to try, 
I say why not?
If it really works, it certainly wouldn't depend on anyone's belief, 
logically, though it may emotionally.
I've seen it on French TV some time ago, it was really impressive.  I really 
hope it works for you.  Please tell us after!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
75 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:34am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control

 
  Why worry so much bout next life? dhamma is here through our six doors of
perception. When K. Sujin was here in ChiangMai a few years ago, they
discussed about life in a higher plane so long. I asked K. Sujin why not
now and here? We have had so much to ABSORB the idea of it. They stopped
talking about next life. Moreover, the fault is in ourself , not in the
stars or others.
----------------------------------


At 03:45 17/1/00 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Yesterday I had lunch with a Buddhist friend. I was
>regaling her with stories of my trip to India.
>Comparing the position of cows in New Zealand and
>India I joked “ if you are going to be reborn as a cow
>avoid New Zealand”.
>She immediately said “no choice , it depends on
>conditions”.
>Absolutely true. And to those who have studied so
>obvious as be almost trite. 
>It is surprising though how few Buddhist realize this.
>A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing
>mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully
>conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should
>be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of
>conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my
>first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was
>really worried about dying suddenly and not being
>aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be
>avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of
>misunderstanding.
>Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in
>America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said
>he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be
>sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate.
>These ideas come about because of the belief in
>control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into
>existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is
>an entity. We may not have deep understanding of
>Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a
>few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it
>ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through
>wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our
>daily life.
>The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon
>first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept
>that the mind was changing and that it depended on
>conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not
>even in theory. It was after learning about the
>elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that
>the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense.
>Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex
>set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time
>and is then replaced by another eyesense. The
>conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its
>brief existence are themselves conditioned by other
>equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends
>on the eyesense  as well as other ephemeral
>conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many
>more conditions but I think this illustrates the
>point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could
>control it? 
>It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into
>the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to
>become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether
>we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn.
>Conditions will take care of all that by themselves.
>Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves”
>out of the picture.
>Robert
>

 
 
76 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:48am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  It is the power of 'positive' thinking. Endophine[I hope I spell it right]
is then released in the brain to make him happy. As a result, he is
stronger to have more anti-body. Buddhism and science can go together. With
the advance of science and technology, we now know more about our body and
'mind'. Jonothan is better off with the 'mind' blank. Allow the body to do
its job as it is.
Good luck, Jonothan.
------------------------------------
At 20:59 17/1/00 CST, you wrote:
>this is a somewhat frivolous question...
>
>Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the tumour 
>on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had 
>some excellent results..
>
>BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be successful, 
>you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said 
>to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a 
>belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy 
>Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the 
>'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their 
>'wrong' view??
>
>Sarah
>
>>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self
>>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:24:58 -0800 (PST)
>>
>>
>>
>>dear Khun  Tananarong,
>>It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round
>>of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The
>>good news is that there is an end, it can be
>>eradicated
>>Robert
>>--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
>> >
>> > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan
>> > on atta. May I ask
>> > more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from
>> > the time of Lord Buddha
>> > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of
>> > consumerism? Is it innate
>> > or social determinism? Or both?
>> > -------------------------------

 
77 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:20am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: consumerism

 
  Is  self-interest constant all the time from the time of Lord Buddha
>more than 2500 years ago to the present time of consumerism? Is it innate
>or social determinism? Or both?


I don't know much about economic theories, but with or without 'consumerism' 
man has always acted selfishly in regards with the 'world' around him.  
Geologists and archeologists will tell you that the Sahara along the Nile, 
the Arabian desert along the Mesopotamia and even the greater part of the 
Gobi were once fertile forests and fields cultivated by ancient 
'civilizations', then they probably did what we still do today: cut the 
trees, make war that wipe out or displace farmers so that the desert gained 
and covered the land.  Every where man has been, the desert follows, but 
there probably always people who were fighting to do 'the right thing' but 
without wisdom of the Buddhist sense there can be no real 'unselfishness' 
and ultimately that is a very private affair.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
78 From: shinlin 
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 11:44am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Dhamma Discussion is extremely help

 
   
----- Original Message ----- 
From: shinlin 
To: dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:11 PM
Subject: Dhamma Discussion is extremely help


Dear Friends,
    Hello !! Recently, I had a discussion with Robert though the mail and had a discussion with Ivan last Saturday. I have realized one thing, Dhamma discussion is extremely important, without an exchange of view, we usually will be stuck on our own Ignorant MIND. It just goes in circles, unable to get out and know that everything is just Nama and Rupa.
    Thankyou Robert and Ivan for their views.
 
metta,
Shin 
 
79 From: shinlin 
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 11:49am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
   
----- Original Message ----- 
From: shinlin 
To: dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:41 PM
Subject: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese


Dear Friends,
    I have been thinking of translating Archan Sujin's book into Chinese since last year. But I have never been about to start because I did know how to translate it. If I have not asked Khun Amara ( Pi Joy ) for advise, then until today the first sentence of the first page will never be able to be translated.
    What happened was, I have been looking for specific Chinese word to fit every Pali word or the meaning of Dhamma, which sometimes, the word can never cover its meaning like in Pali. But I never realized it until  Pi Joy told me this key problem that no language can cover as much as Pali so we have to explain its meaning in more detail manner in our own language. 
    But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or Cambodian.
    I sincerely ask for your metta to consider about this matter so the translation can be done for the right way. Therefore if would be very much appreciated if you can give your highest comment and suggests to me for the purpose of keeping the Dhamma Study. Thankyou.
 
with metta,
Shiau-in( Shin )  Lin 
 
80 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
   
81 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:37pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
  Dear Shin,
Your modesty about your understanding is itself a good
indication that you are ready to proceed. Joy's advice
is very sound. And you have the advantage of being
able to read both Thai and English versions of the
book. Does kwan know Chinese ?- he could help too.

I sincerely hope that you will start this important
translation work. You could help to bring true Dhamma
back to China.

Thanks for the comments about the usefulness of
discussion - as you say we easily get stuck in our own
view and discusing with others can highlight our
sticking places.
Robert
__________________________________________________
 
82 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:42pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: consumerism

 
  Excellent answer Khun amara.
Robert
--- > 
> 
> I don't know much about economic theories, but with
> or without 'consumerism' 
> man has always acted selfishly in regards with the
> 'world' around him.  
> 
> without wisdom of the Buddhist sense there can be no
> real 'unselfishness' 
> and ultimately that is a very private affair.
> Amara
>

 
83 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 8:30am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
  >     But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my 
>understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to 
>translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one 
>who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of 
>what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I 
>have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese 
>people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the 
>Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or 
>Cambodian.


As Robert has said, you are much too modest about your understanding of the 
dhamma, and I must add that you are very lucky indeed to be just a phone 
call or a drive away from Khun Sujin so you can always check anything you're 
not sure of with her.  On minor points I'm sure this group would all be 
willing to do what we can so you can help such a vast community, so many 
Chinese readers all over the world!
(Everyone who knows my hopping, skipping and jumping brain will see that I 
am already wishing for a Chinese section for our website!!!)
Anumodana with your kusala citta,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
84 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 10:20am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control

 
  >It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into
>the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to
>become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether
>we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn.
>Conditions will take care of all that by themselves.
>Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves”
>out of the picture.
>Robert

Understanding, even at a beginning level, the truth of no-control is truly 
liberating.  As you say, this seems paradoxical given that we are all 
innately control freaks to a greater or lesser degree.

Of course, we should not lose sight of the fact that the tendency to control 
still lurks, adopting ever more subtle form!

Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
85 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 10:56am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  >In this case one
>never knows what the result may be, and since it doesn't hurt anyone to 
>try,
>I say why not?
>If it really works, it certainly wouldn't depend on anyone's belief,
>logically, though it may emotionally.
>I've seen it on French TV some time ago, it was really impressive.  I 
>really
>hope it works for you.  Please tell us after!
>Amara

Amara,

The actual treatment (last night) was somewhat less dramatic than expected.  
More like psychic massge than psychic surgery.  I have a fairly open mind 
about it, having experienced similar healers in Indonesia and Thailand many 
years ago.

As you point out, the effectiveness or otherwise depends ultimately on one's 
kamma.  Thinking of this gives me a healthy attitude towards the treatment - 
neither unduly hopeful nor sceptical.  The practitioners believe that the 
outcome of any treatment is largely influenced by the patient's mental 
attitude, and they tend to talk of this in terms of 'faith', but I prefer to 
think of it in terms of confidence in cause and result.

No marked results yet!  I'll let you know if anything happens.

Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
86 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 11:01am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Psychic healing

 
  >It is the power of 'positive' thinking. Endophine[I hope I spell it right]
>is then released in the brain to make him happy. As a result, he is
>stronger to have more anti-body. Buddhism and science can go together. With
>the advance of science and technology, we now know more about our body and
>'mind'. Jonothan is better off with the 'mind' blank. Allow the body to do
>its job as it is.
>Good luck, Jonothan.

Tanarong
Boosting the body's anti-immune system is one of the things this kind of 
treatment is supposed to do.
Thanks for your good wishes
Jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
87 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2000 11:28am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control

 
  > 
> Understanding, even at a beginning level, the truth
> of no-control is truly 
> liberating.  As you say, this seems paradoxical
> given that we are all 
> innately control freaks to a greater or lesser
> degree.
> 
> Of course, we should not lose sight of the fact that
> the tendency to control 
> still lurks, adopting ever more subtle form!
> 
> Jonothan
Thanks for the great reminder!
Robert______________________________________________________


 
88 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 22, 2000 4:00am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium,rebirth and control!

 
  Robert, I was reminded of yr interesting comments below when reading an 
article in the paper today.. Apparently large numbers of dying people were 
able to 'postpone' their deaths to the first week in January to see in the 
new millenium. In both London and New York there were record low numbers 
passing away in the last week of last year and  record hign numbers (about 
50%increase) passing away in the first week of this year. it reminded me of 
Jonothan's father who seemed to wait for the auction of his house before 
passing away and saving J's mum lots of unpleasant complications.

Conventionally, it seems like people can have a say in selecting and 
choosing the time, but from a dhamma point of view, we could probably just 
say that the strong wish (attachment usually I'd think, but some kusala in 
some cases such as consideration for the family) can be a condition in 
determining the time....

This has just prompted me to get out my old notes from Nina on Conditions 
and I'm reminded that under nutriment-condition (ahara paccaya) we have 
physical nutriment, contact (phassa), volition (cetana) and consciousness 
(citta)

'...Thus citta supports the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by 
way of nutriment-condition.  When it produces rupa it also conditions that 
rupa by way of nutriment-condition.....'

I'm finding it helpful in this context to consider cetana and citta as 
nutriment. Of course what is important is whether the cittas are kusala or 
akusala or with or without understanding. Of course many other conditions 
are at play here and you or someone else may add useful comments on 
others...

Any comments anyone?

Sarah

p.s. Alan- our copy of The Conditionality of Life is dated Jun90. would you 
let me know if this has been updated?

...>A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing
>mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully
>conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should
>be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of
>conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my
>first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was
>really worried about dying suddenly and not being
>aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be
>avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of
>misunderstanding.
>Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in
>America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said
>he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be
>sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate.
>These ideas come about because of the belief in
>control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into
>existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is
>an entity. We may not have deep understanding of
>Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a
>few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it
>ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through
>wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our
>daily life.
>The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon
>first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept
>that the mind was changing and that it depended on
>conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not
>even in theory. It was after learning about the
>elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that
>the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense.
>Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex
>set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time
>and is then replaced by another eyesense. The
>conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its
>brief existence are themselves conditioned by other
>equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends
>on the eyesense  as well as other ephemeral
>conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many
>more conditions but I think this illustrates the
>point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could
>control it?
>It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into
>the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to
>become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether
>we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn.
>Conditions will take care of all that by themselves.
>Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves”
>out of the picture.
>Robert
>

______________________________________________________

 
89 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 22, 2000 10:12am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
  Shin,
Welcome to the list.  I hear you had some difficulties getting on.  I'm glad 
they have been resolved.  Pinna (in Singapore) tells me she has encountered 
difficulty posting to the list.  Anyone else with problems is welcome to 
contact me.

Regarding your post-
>     But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my 
>understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to 
>translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one 
>who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of 
>what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I 
>have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese 
>people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the 
>Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or 
>Cambodian.

It is natural to have such reservations.  But will our understanding ever be 
as good as we think it should?  Anyway, you have a choice as to the material 
you translate, so choose something that you feel comfortable with.  It will 
all be new and unfamiliar to the target audience.  It will be good to have 
something in Chinese to give to people here in Hong Kong.  Good luck!

Jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
90 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 22, 2000 11:02am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium,rebirth and control!

 
  Sarah wrote-


>This has just prompted me to get out my old notes from Nina on Conditions
>and I'm reminded that under nutriment-condition (ahara paccaya) we have
>physical nutriment, contact (phassa), volition (cetana) and consciousness
>(citta)
>
>'...Thus citta supports the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by
>way of nutriment-condition.  When it produces rupa it also conditions that
>rupa by way of nutriment-condition.....'
>
>I'm finding it helpful in this context to consider cetana and citta as
>nutriment. Of course what is important is whether the cittas are kusala or
>akusala or with or without understanding. Of course many other conditions
>are at play here

This is helpful.  It helps us to distinguish between and understand what we 
have observed from our experience in life to be the case, on the one hand, 
and the idea some people have that one can choose the actual moment of death 
or the nature of the citta at that moment, on the other.  Conventionally 
speaking, both are seen as a degree of control over the time of death.  But 
in dhamma terms they are quite different.  Thinking that death can be 
postponed by sheer willpower does not necessarily involve wrong view.  
Trying to manipulate the moment of death or the cittas at that time so as to 
produce a certain outcome surely would.

Jonothan

to ensure the best
postpone death
______________________________________________________
 
 
 
91 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jan 24, 2000 2:57am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sense door experiences

 
  I have been reflecting on the quote below posted by Jonothan some time ago 
and have found the analogy of the contact between two pieces of cotton-wool 
to describe the impact of the sense objects on the relevant 'senses' very 
helpful. It's been a condition for moments of calmness before I fall asleep 
when I reflect that our obsessions with the objects experienced thr' these 
sense doorways stems from this 'cotton-wool' contact accompanied by 
indifferent feeling.

The other day, however, when I was posting a message to this list, any 
moments of calmness or any kusala were short-lived. I only had ten minutes 
before I needed to go out for a Tai Chi class. I heard a fax trying to come 
in on the machine next to the computer and when it made a strange noise, I 
looked up and saw that part of the fax machine had been broken and the paper 
couldn't release properly. Immeditately I remembered my helper had cleaned 
the machine that day and was overwhelmed with dosa and stories about how she 
must have broken it. With this dosa I finished posting my message and went 
out.  I came back an hour or so later and was still in a bad mood, obsessed 
with the story which had started with the sounds and visible objects...!In 
fact, I was still worrying about it when I woke up the next morning..


'....Visual consciousness, your reverences, arises because of eye and visual 
object: the meeting of the three is sensory impingement (phassa);  feelings 
are because of sensory impingement; what one feels one perceives; what one 
perceives one reasons about; what one reasons about obsesses one; what 
obsesses one is the origin of the number of perceptions and obsessions which 
assail a man in regard to visual object cognisable by tyhe eye, past, 
future, present....
MLS (1,no18, Disc of the Honey Ball)
Sarah

>By chance I came across the following passage in Nina's "Cetasikas":
>
>The Paramatta Manjusa, a commentary on the Visuddhimagga, explains why
>kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant
>feeling.  This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow';  there is
>the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense...
>By way of simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible
>impact on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the
>relevant senses.  When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it
>with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because 
>of
>the violence of the impact.  In the case, however, of the other
>panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces 
>of
>cottonwool.  Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling.
>The ‘impact’ of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared 
>with
>the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysesnse.
>(ends)
>
>This seems to be along the same lines as Khun Sujin's reference to the
>mahabhuttarupas.
>
>For those who didn't know, "Cetasikas" is now beautifully published in book
>form by Alan.  I am reading through it again, with much benefit.
>
>Jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
92 From: shinlin 
Date: Tue Jan 25, 2000 2:30pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipattana

 
  Dear Friends,
    Recently, I have encountered some experience which made me understand the word of PANNA and ATTA. Then the final question was if Satipattana happens, then at that moment, there will only be the separation of NAMA and RUPA ? 
    Then, I called some dhamma friends including Ivan, and found that Satipattana does not only happen with only NAMA and RUPA but it also recognize NAMA.
    Then I finalized my question which is when Satipattana happens, Panna will recogized the other Cetasika in a Citta because only one Citta happens only at one moment and Satipattana happens only in one moment. 
    Finally, I asked Archan Santi who gave me the answer that ONLY PANNA recognized the every things.
    This means that WE really have to accumulate the right understanding of Dhamma to be about to really understand the nature of Paramatha Dhamma.
Recently, I have realized that we are going into stories of life and all the happening through the 6 mind doors that we completely forgot the SAJA, the truth of Dhamma or the teaching of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. 
This just a sharing of my thought.
best regards,
Shin 
 
93 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 25, 2000 4:25pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Giving money to monks and vegetarianism

 
  Sarah_ Thanks for the amusing story relating
abhidhamma to daily life Some of you might be
intersted in a discussion I had about giving money to
monks and vegetarianism.  it is a little long so I put
it as an attachment.
Robert


Attachment 39k (application/msword) From adhamma dana.doc 
 


 
94 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 25, 2000 0:45pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: satipattana

 
  >     Then, I called some dhamma friends including Ivan, and found that 
>Satipattana does not only happen with only NAMA and RUPA but it also 
>recognize NAMA.

Shin, you obviously made a typo here, what did you mean to say?

>     Then I finalized my question which is when Satipattana happens, Panna 
>will recogized the other Cetasika in a Citta because only one Citta happens 
>only at one moment and Satipattana happens only in one moment.

At the moment of satipattana there is already the beginning of the five-fold 
magga leading to the eightfold one which happens at the moments of 
respective levels of attainment.  At the moment of sati when the aramana is 
clear, there is no lobha, dosa or moha (in other words, there are alobha, 
adosa and amoha cetasika arising), which makes it 'peaceful' from 
defilements, the eggakhata cetasica is focused on the characteristics of the 
aramana, and panna knows more about it, etc. These accompanied by, of the 52 
cetasikas, excluding all the akusala, there would be at least the 13 
annasamana-cetasika arising with it, in combination with any of the other 25 
cetasika of the good side.  They each do their own duties towards the 
accumulation of further panna and sati, which is why each moment of sati is 
so precious.  You can refer to the different kinds of cetasikas in the 
Summary p.383, Appendix, 52 Types of Cetasika.  Of course the cetasika of 
the bad side arise more often and they also accumulate for their side, 
depending on the degree of their weak or great strength.
And since moha is the root of it all, knowledge is the most important factor 
towards the elimination or attenuation of the bad, it is vital to help 
people understand as much as possible, and I would like to anumodana again 
for your kusala cetana in translating this wonderful book into Chinese!
______________________________________________________

 
95 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 26, 2000 6:41am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] paccaya

 
  Sarah wrote:

Conventionally, it seems like people can have a say in selecting and
choosing the time, but from a dhamma point of view, we could probably just
say that the strong wish (attachment usually I'd think, but some kusala in
some cases such as consideration for the family) can be a condition in
determining the time....

This has just prompted me to get out my old notes from Nina on Conditions
and I'm reminded that under nutriment-condition (ahara paccaya) we have
physical nutriment, contact (phassa), volition (cetana) and consciousness
(citta)

'...Thus citta supports the accompanying cetasikas, it conditions them by
way of nutriment-condition. When it produces rupa it also conditions that
rupa by way of nutriment-condition.....'

I'm finding it helpful in this context to consider cetana and citta as
nutriment. Of course what is important is whether the cittas are kusala or
akusala or with or without understanding. Of course many other conditions
are at play here and you or someone else may add useful comments on
others...


I would like to comment that paccaya are so complex as to be one of the 
'imponderables' beyond the ordinary person's calculations, in fact only 
predictable to the Buddha.  The computer for example is conceived on the 
basis of mathematical possibilities of the combinations of 1's and 0's in 
eight positions, (I hope I get it right, I was never good at math!) which 
gave millions of combinations.  With 24 paccayas in any number of 
combinations, the possibilities seem to be mind boggling, no wonder with the 
number of kamma accumulated each second, each with different degrees of 
strength, some would take millions of lifetimes to be just right to produce 
their results.
Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present 
aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant has 
fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder 
what it was just now?
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
96 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 26, 2000 4:39pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: paccaya

 
  Dear Amara,

A very difficult problem. How we understand this will
affect our attitude to study and practice- in
otherwords an important issue.
You wrote "is it not
> better to study the present 
> aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna,
> because once the instant has 
> fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and
> we would have to wonder 
> what it was just now?" You wonder about this because
you realise (correctly) that the various paccayas
arise to make up each moment are so complex as to be
impossible to directly insight. Indeed, such
comprehensive knowledge is the province of Buddhas.

I want to think about this and will try to compose
something but I am a litttle busy at he moment so give
me a few days. I am sure others have good comments
too. 
Robert



 
97 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 27, 2000 4:07am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  Sarah wrote:
I have been reflecting on the quote below posted by Jonothan some time ago
and have found the analogy of the contact between two pieces of cotton-wool
to describe the impact of the sense objects on the relevant 'senses' very
helpful. It's been a condition for moments of calmness before I fall asleep
when I reflect that our obsessions with the objects experienced thr' these
sense doorways stems from this 'cotton-wool' contact accompanied by
indifferent feeling.


Sarah,
I meant to ask K. Sujin about the order in which the Buddha refered to the 
senses last weekend but unfortunately the luncheon was canceled because she 
and her sister were between eye operations for their cataracts, the final 
one being yesterday.  Apparently the first one on the 19th went quite well, 
she said that the doctor was very good.
I will ask her about it when we next meet,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
98 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 0:05am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Giving money to monks and vegetarianism

 
  Robert,

I JUST got round to reading the discussion w/ Dr...re monks & 
vinaya....interesting & I'm sure yr comments will be useful & considered. 
I'm just reminded of when K.Sujin told me that the only reason people should 
become monks is because it is natural according to their accumulations and 
not because they think they will have more wisdom, more calm or other 
kusala.  If one isn't able to follow the vinaya, one shouldn't become or 
remain a monk...
Perhaps Dr... would like to join our group, so others can more easily hear 
and respond to his comments usefully? I admire your efforts!

Sarah

>
>Sarah_ Thanks for the amusing story relating
>abhidhamma to daily life Some of you might be
>intersted in a discussion I had about giving money to
>monks and vegetarianism.  it is a little long so I put
>it as an attachment.
>Robert
>

______________________________________________________

 
99 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 0:18am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  Amara,

thanks for the update on K.S.'s cataracts..It also sounded to me when I was 
in Bkk that they were in good hands.

When we were there someone thought they remembered K.S. saying she wouldn't 
seek medical help for health problems. I knew this was not right and a 
misunderstanding. Finding a good surgeon and having this surgery proves the 
point!

pls give our best wishes to her & her sister....no hurry for the qu.

By the way, even w'out being a 'believer', J's psychic surgery seems to have 
had some positive results...According to the acupuncturist he goes to, the 
tumour 'unrooted' after the visit...we're a little hopeful but very aware of 
the dangers of expectations! Detachment is most useful, but how few moments 
of upekkha there are (in my case anyway) in a day!

Thanks for yr helpful comment before on this subject.
Sarah


>Sarah,
>I meant to ask K. Sujin about the order in which the Buddha refered to the
>senses last weekend but unfortunately the luncheon was canceled because she
>and her sister were between eye operations for their cataracts, the final
>one being yesterday.  Apparently the first one on the 19th went quite well,
>she said that the doctor was very good.
>I will ask her about it when we next meet,
>Amara
>______________________________________________________

 
100 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 28, 2000 5:41pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  >When we were there someone thought they remembered K.S. saying she wouldn't
>seek medical help for health problems. I knew this was not right and a
>misunderstanding. Finding a good surgeon and having this surgery proves the
>point!

>By the way, even w'out being a 'believer', J's psychic surgery seems to 
>have
>had some positive results...According to the acupuncturist he goes to, the
>tumour 'unrooted' after the visit...we're a little hopeful but very aware 
>of
>the dangers of expectations! Detachment is most useful, but how few moments
>of upekkha there are (in my case anyway) in a day!


Sarah and Jonothan,
I'm so glad to hear about the improvement, do keep us posted!
About K. S., the person who told that you must have slightly misunderstood, 
because everytime she needs to, she always seeks medical attention, it's 
only that she never goes for check ups and such...  But considering that 
Charupan went every six months and still has cancer that had eluded 
examinations for about four years (being just behind a rib, it seems), one 
must admit what must happen must happen, it really depends on our past 
kamma.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
101 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 2:38pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: paccaya

 
  >From: "amara chay" 
>I would like to comment that paccaya are so complex as to be one of the
>'imponderables' beyond the ordinary person's calculations, in fact only
>predictable to the Buddha. ......

>Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present
>aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant has
>fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder
>what it was just now?

Amara,
Are you suggsting it is not useful to reflect on aspects of the teaching?  
This does not seem right!  Of course, it is always best to study the present 
aramana.  But such study is not something that happens in place of thinking 
and other mundane activities. And reflection on the teachings is one 
condition for the development of awareness.
Jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
102 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 2:50pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
>I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
>Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
>quote which is Buddhist.
.....
>Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
>place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
>are attacking Buddhism.
>....
>The Times are a religious persector aren't they?

Alan,
I have just read that Hoddle has been engaged as coach of Southampton.  Does 
it follow that the powers that be in Southampton have more religous 
tolerance than the rest of the football community (and The Times!)?
Jonothan
PS  A message sent by Sarah to your email add has bounced back.  Has there 
been any change?
______________________________________________________

 
103 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2000 1:37pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: paccaya

 
  >>Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present
>>aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant 
>>has
>>fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder
>>what it was just now?
>
>Amara,
>Are you suggsting it is not useful to reflect on aspects of the teaching?
>This does not seem right!  Of course, it is always best to study the 
>present
>aramana.  But such study is not something that happens in place of thinking
>and other mundane activities. And reflection on the teachings is one
>condition for the development of awareness.


Not at all, all Dhamma of the good side help one another!  What I meant was, 
when one knows all the different paccaya and how they opperate, it has a 
humbling effect (at least on me!) and I personally would never try to 
speculate on which ones of my past kamma produced which results, throughout 
the incalculable lifetimes I have lived .  I don't even know what I was my 
last rebirth, how could I speculate on which result is from which kamma?  
All I know is everything proves to me that I have lived before and must have 
done so not only once, that all this is the result of the 24 paccaya, (and 
this because I have studied the teachings, I certainly didn't discover the 
paccayas myself!) but I refuse to wonder about each instant because to me it 
seems a waste of time... I would much rather be studying the present as much 
as I can- even moments of thought can have sati interposing the stream of 
thoughts and bhavanga, etc.
But then that's my accumulations, I suppose different people have different 
habits, so long as it helps to increase the accumulation of panna, it is 
always preferable to other things!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
104 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Sun Jan 30, 2000 7:47pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >Alan,
>I have just read that Hoddle has been engaged as coach of Southampton.  Does
>it follow that the powers that be in Southampton have more religous
>tolerance than the rest of the football community (and The Times!)?
>Jonothan
>PS  A message sent by Sarah to your email add has bounced back.  Has there
>been any change?


Dear Jonothan,
Good question! Maybe I will ask Southampton press office this and publish
their reply.
As far as I know there is nothing wrong with my e-mail address.

Best wishes, Alan

 
105 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2000 4:14pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] new page

 
  Hi everyone,
Just a note to tell you we have added a new section of Q&A to the 
DhammaStudy.com, with five of the questions from Tanarong, thanks to T. for 
your questions and to everyone who commented on them!  The front page has 
the wonderful shot from the newly repaired Hubble, by NASA, of the exploding 
Eskimo, which will also happen to our sun when it goes out billions of years 
from now.  Please comment on any of the above!
Amara
______________________________________________________


 
106 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2000 1:50am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  We just rec'd a ltter from Gabi Hense (who is enjoying receiving these 
postings via her brother but doesn't have a computer as yet). The last few 
years have been devoted to trying to help her mother who now has alzheimers 
disease (age memory loss)  and is in a home. Gabi visits regularly and rocks 
her like a child. The experience has been very demanding and it has all been 
a very tough experience for Gabi....

I think Pinna (also on the list) is also facing dilemmas concerning her 
mother in the States too.

It's hard when one is used to living overseas and through one's 
understanding of the Teachings is aware of responsibilities which one isn't 
necessarily stronger to handle than anyone else. Somehow it seems easier in 
terms of support from others around in parts of Asia like Thailand where 
this duty is expected and appreciated.  But that sounds like a 
generalisation and not very 'dhammic'! Of course there is a lot of 
attachment involved as well and disappointment if one's 'good' efforts are 
not appreciated...

I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my 
parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became 
alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional 
failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than we're really up to 
and not realistic about our limits.  But what are these limits? What is 
failure?

I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful for 
those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the 
attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? How about 
a comment from EVERYONE on the list on this one?

metta, Sarah

Gabi & Pinna- hope you don't mind the mention..
Gabi...hope you get a computer or internet provider VERY SOON! Do they have 
internet cafes in yr town? S.



______________________________________________________

 
107 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2000 1:59am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  Another 'dilemma'!
I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's 
thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one 
could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to 
emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said they 
were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to 
disagree,  was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was 
attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is 
the best way to help at these times? Silence?

Sarah


______________________________________________________

 
108 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2000 7:22pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  >Another 'dilemma'!
>I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's
>thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one
>could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to
>emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said they
>were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to
>disagree,  was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was
>attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is
>the best way to help at these times? Silence?
>
>Sarah

Firstly, when the Buddha was near death despite having many great
disciples, he exhorted his followers to take refuge in Dhamma and not any
particular individual. As far I know this would also be in Tibetan texts.
Secondly. He said not to take any notice of any monk or layman unless what
they said conformes to his teachings. Suttas of the above can be found in
Tipitaka and they are reasonable aren't they? Some 'Buddhists' believe you
can become enlightened by swimming in the Ganges!
Thirdly we live at the time of the break up of Buddhism where even
Theravada monks speak incorrectly on the teachings, so we have to be
diligent and study the teachings very carefully.
You could explain these points to your friend, but only if they will
listen.Ultimately though you are attacking the Dalai Lama by attacking
wrong view and I do not see any way around this.
Lastly you could give them a copy of zolag's latest book 'Taking Refuge in
Buddhism' by Sujin to be published in March and sponsored by Robert!

>I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful for
>those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the
>attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? How about
>a comment from EVERYONE on the list on this one?

Each moment is Dukkha, nobody can escape this truth. When we 'like' certain
situations, then we must dislike certain situations. Each moment is anatta,
we cannot contol situations. Each moment is anicca. The nice situation must
change.
Diffucult dilemmas or situations are the test of our kusala.

Best wishes, Alan

 
109 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2000 2:39pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  Hi everyone,

I think this is a very profound and complex problem which does concern 
everybody, since we were all born by someone into being as we are now.  It 
seems that no one can appreciate their parents enough, because somehow the 
instinct is for love or protection or whatever is to descend from 
generatiion to generation: most animals are extemely conscientious of their 
young, they can kill great preys to feed these helpless things they have to 
avoid stepping to keep alive, with tremendous needs to be fed and kept warm 
and clean.  In Thailand there is a saying that a parent's love is like water 
that always flows downhill, from the grandparents to the parents, from the 
parents to the children, and from them to the grandchildren, etc.  The 
instinct of the parents is always to protect the young, in nature as well as 
in human behavior, the older people in some cultures are expected to remove 
themselves from  the struggle of life, like the Eskimos in the old days.  It 
is because the Buddha teaches us that one's parents are like an arahanta to 
us that we can fully appreciate the efforts our parents put up in giving us 
birth and keeping us alive until we could more or less fend for ourselves, 
especially for those like myself who have never had any children.
And I think most children expect everything from their parents, first as 
their due and later in signs of approval or understanding.  Sometimes what 
we expect might not be so reasonable, at least to them.  Or it might be 
beyond their comprehension.  Perhaps what we need to do is to imitate them 
in some respects, when we were young, they probably had similar problems but 
they cared for us anyway, whether anyone appreciates it or not.
There are no longer any arahanta nowadays and I think it is fortunate for 
those of us who still have our parents to be able to accumulate kusala by 
doing all we can for them the way one would like to do for an arahanta, 
there are only rare occasions for karuna in daily life.  And once one does 
what one can in a given situation, there would not be a question of failure 
because it also depends on our parents' kamma how the results will turn out.
Some professionals are paid to take care of the elderly and infirm, but are 
not the compensations infinitely higher when one can do good deed to the 
arahanta, whether one knows it or not, or even less importantly, whether 
others appreciate it or not?  It sounds a bit selfish, but it is true, and 
also good for your parents because how can anyone really care about them as 
much as you do, even if they are well paid to do it?
The best one could do is of course to help them understand the dhamma, but 
as it depends on their accumulations, sometimes that is impossible; my own 
mother began to study with K. Sujin before I did, but my father, who passed 
away nearly ten years ago, never had a dhamma discussion with us, when he 
read an article I wrote about thirty years ago, he made editorial notes on 
the margins!  (He was a King's scholar and the first Thai to obtain a 
master's degree at MIT) He held over twenty possitions, was head of the 
charity committee for the blind and several academic boards when he passed 
away, but thought he knew all the dhamma already from the rote recitals in 
his school days.  Maybe wherever he is now he can better appreciate the 
dhamma, but for us, the time is now, and as the dhamma of the good side help 
each other, caring for our parents seem one of the best ways to accumulate 
the right conditions, by doing the best we can and leaving the rest to the 
individual kamma accumulations.  I think that is what I will try to do, at 
least.
Amara

>From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>We just rec'd a ltter from Gabi Hense (who is enjoying receiving these
>postings via her brother but doesn't have a computer as yet). The last few
>years have been devoted to trying to help her mother who now has alzheimers
>disease (age memory loss)  and is in a home. Gabi visits regularly and 
>rocks
>her like a child. The experience has been very demanding and it has all 
>been
>a very tough experience for Gabi....
>
>I think Pinna (also on the list) is also facing dilemmas concerning her
>mother in the States too.
>
>It's hard when one is used to living overseas and through one's
>understanding of the Teachings is aware of responsibilities which one isn't
>necessarily stronger to handle than anyone else. Somehow it seems easier in
>terms of support from others around in parts of Asia like Thailand where
>this duty is expected and appreciated.  But that sounds like a
>generalisation and not very 'dhammic'! Of course there is a lot of
>attachment involved as well and disappointment if one's 'good' efforts are
>not appreciated...
>
>I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my
>parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became
>alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional
>failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than we're really up to
>and not realistic about our limits.  But what are these limits? What is
>failure?
>
>I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful 
>for
>those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the
>attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas?

______________________________________________________

 
110 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2000 6:04am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings
>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 17:59:40 CST
>
>
>Another 'dilemma'!
>I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's
>thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one
>could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to
>emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said 
>they
>were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to
>disagree,  was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was
>attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is
>the best way to help at these times? Silence?
>
>Sarah


I think the truth is very valuable, even if you don't realize that it is so 
at the moment, there might be times when you recognize that you have heard 
that before, and it is just that much easier to accept in the end.  In this 
case one day it might become clearer to your friend that the DL isn't always 
right and then she might realize that she had heeard it somewhere before.  
Of course the very fact that there is a DL shows how much parts of the 
teachings have been ignored, since the Buddha had attained parinibbana, how 
could he be reborn?  Being based on this belief, the entire teaching is a 
bit 'off'.  You might remind her that the Buddha taught us never to believe 
anything without careful consideration, in fact it is our duty to do so.
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
111 From: Ivan Walsh   
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 5:03am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  >I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my 
>parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became 
>alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional 
>failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than >we're>really up 
>to and not realistic about our limits.  But what are these >limits? What is 
>failure?
>metta, Sarah

Our limit is the maximum drive we are capable of to fulfill our lobha.  And 
failure is dosa, due to unfulfilled lobha.
Trying to do more than we’re really up to and not being realistic about our 
limits is due to excessive lobha.  A very common state of mind, as are 
thoughts of failure of regret.
Our limits and our successes and failures are just thinking (a story), due 
to the rising and falling away of cita/cetasika.  Every moment has its 
characteristic that can be known and the story that they are creating 
distracts from knowing the moment for what it is.  If the moments of dosa or 
lobha etc. do not arise, then how can there be contemplation and eventual 
understanding of their characteristics?  The stories that cita/cetasiaka 
create can be confusing, the characteristics of each moment are not.  Is the 
answer found in manipulating the story to make it different from what it is 
or understand the moments ( kusala or akusala) that create the story?
Ivan
______________________________________________________

 
112 From: Ivan Walsh   
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 5:07am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  >Another 'dilemma'!
>I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's
>thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one
>could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to
>emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said 
>they
>were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to
>disagree,  was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was
>attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is
>the best way to help at these times? Silence?
>Sarah

Investigate the characteristics of the moments, which are rising and falling 
away and creating the (distracting) story of the Dalai Lama,  your friend 
and their views.  Talk to your friend about these moments (realities) that 
are arising and falling away as you speak with her.  To bring people to 
Dhamma we must introduce the Dhamma
( the ultimate realities of the moment) not question or refute their 
beliefs. Views about the Dalai Lama or God etc., (as to whether they are 
right or wrong, real or not real) will alienate many people and turn them 
away from investigating the Dhamma.
Ivan

______________________________________________________

 
113 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee   
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 1:59pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  Sarah,
I have experienced the problem of an emphasis on  'emptiness' and 'voidness'
with people studying dhamma within Mahayana contexts; the only mediating
point I have found is to try to return to the teaching of 'no self.'  But,
there is a question of how much one can really mediate without
misrepresenting the teaching. It usually is a bit of a stalemate. However,
as you seem to have found, it really does not help to say 'I disagree,' that
makes it an authority issue.  Maybe one or two comments or a question about
what anatta really means, although it can lead to the false impression of
agreement. No easy answer, no sure way. If there is then no evident
receptiveness maybe silence is best.
Pinna



> ----------
> From: 	Sarah Procter Abbott
> Sent: 	Thursday, February 3, 2000 7:59 AM
> To: 	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
> Subject: 	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings
> 
> Another 'dilemma'!
> I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's
> 
> thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one 
> could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to 
> emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. My friend said
> they 
> were what the Buddha taught and the Dalai lama said so. Who was I to 
> disagree,  was the inference. Somehow it ended up appearing that I was 
> attacking the Dalai Lama and I certainly wasn't helping my friend. What is
> 
> the best way to help at these times? Silence?
> 
> Sarah

 
114 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee   
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 2:45pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  As Amara said, it is a complex problem.  One side of the issue is duty and
duty seems clear. But how duty is carried out is also not clear. The other
side is allowing someone to keep their independence and do things for
themselves (as my  mother still wants to); allow them to make their own
decisions as long as they can.  I have observed in my family (extended as
well as immediate) decisions about health care left to the patient and it is
not easy to judge when someone knows best for themselves; it is also not
always easy to see the critical turning point in a person's ability to take
care of herself / her own health (life-threatening crises are of course
clear). Is it a duty to impose a change of lifestyle or a different approach
to health? Other aspects are unfortunately mundane financial issues, also
complex:  the USA does not have a universal social welfare system, neither
my mother nor I can be fully 'covered' (me not at all) and private insurance
is out of the question.  Either one of us could fall ill and wipe out both
our life-savings in a few months.  While I'm working here, I'm 'covered' to
some extent and will not be such a potential burden on my mother's
resources. There are home-care services available in her area, but only if a
doctor recommends them can they be initiated.  My mother is still 'too
healthy' for those, but suffers from allergies and loss of strength and
short-term memory which comes with age (not an illness yet), and her
community of peers is decreasing. There are no purely commercial care
services avialable within a 50 mile radius, and likewise not many job
opportunities for me, well it would be a complete change of 'career.'  And
there is a lot of clinging to my study of  Asian (Hindu and Buddhist)
architecture! Ending a 'career' is also a dilemma!
Pinna

> ----------
> From: 	Sarah Procter Abbott
> Sent: 	Thursday, February 3, 2000 7:50 AM
> To: 	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
> Subject: 	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents
> 
> We just rec'd a ltter from Gabi Hense (who is enjoying receiving these 
> postings via her brother but doesn't have a computer as yet). The last few
> 
> years have been devoted to trying to help her mother who now has
> alzheimers 
> disease (age memory loss)  and is in a home. Gabi visits regularly and
> rocks 
> her like a child. The experience has been very demanding and it has all
> been 
> a very tough experience for Gabi....
> 
> I think Pinna (also on the list) is also facing dilemmas concerning her 
> mother in the States too.
> 
> It's hard when one is used to living overseas and through one's 
> understanding of the Teachings is aware of responsibilities which one
> isn't 
> necessarily stronger to handle than anyone else. Somehow it seems easier
> in 
> terms of support from others around in parts of Asia like Thailand where 
> this duty is expected and appreciated.  But that sounds like a 
> generalisation and not very 'dhammic'! Of course there is a lot of 
> attachment involved as well and disappointment if one's 'good' efforts are
> 
> not appreciated...
> 
> I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my 
> parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became 
> alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional 
> failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than we're really up
> to 
> and not realistic about our limits.  But what are these limits? What is 
> failure?
> 
> I'm not sure what the question is, but feel any comments would be useful
> for 
> those of us who have faced or are facing these 'dilemmas'...is it the 
> attachment that seems to make them different from other dilemmas? How
> about 
> a comment from EVERYONE on the list on this one?
> 
> metta, Sarah
> 
> Gabi & Pinna- hope you don't mind the mention..
> Gabi...hope you get a computer or internet provider VERY SOON! Do they
> have 
> internet cafes in yr town? S.
> 

 
115 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee   
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 2:48pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DL

 
  Sarah,
I have experienced the problem of an emphasis on  'emptiness' and 'voidness'
with people studying dhamma within Mahayana contexts; the only mediating
point I have found is to try to return to the teaching of 'no self.'  But,
there is a question of how much one can really mediate without
misrepresenting the teaching. It usually is a bit of a stalemate. However,
as you seem to have found, it really does not help to say 'I disagree,' that
makes it an authority issue.  Maybe one or two comments or a question about
what anatta really means, although it can lead to the false impression of
agreement. No easy answer, no sure way. If there is then no evident
receptiveness maybe silence is best.
Pinna

 
116 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 3:16pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  I think when you have tried to do your best with good intention, it is not
lobha is the limit. The limit is conditioned by many factors most of them
outside your ability. Then you just let it go. Realization at that moment
that it is only dhamma. I think Ivan's reply is pessimistic that he saw it
as only lobha. With your good intention though without panna, it is still
kusala citta.
-------------------


At 21:03 3/2/00 PST, you wrote:
>>I, too, had a lot of dilemmas and difficulties in this regard when my 
>>parents were having a lot of marital problems and when my father became 
>>alcoholic. I still have a feeling (or rather thoughts) of conventional 
>>failure in this regard. Sometimes we try to do more than >we're>really up 
>>to and not realistic about our limits.  But what are these >limits? What is 
>>failure?
>>metta, Sarah
>
>Our limit is the maximum drive we are capable of to fulfill our lobha.  And 
>failure is dosa, due to unfulfilled lobha.
>Trying to do more than we’re really up to and not being realistic about our 
>limits is due to excessive lobha.  A very common state of mind, as are 
>thoughts of failure of regret.
>Our limits and our successes and failures are just thinking (a story), due 
>to the rising and falling away of cita/cetasika.  Every moment has its 
>characteristic that can be known and the story that they are creating 
>distracts from knowing the moment for what it is.  If the moments of dosa or 
>lobha etc. do not arise, then how can there be contemplation and eventual 
>understanding of their characteristics?  The stories that cita/cetasiaka 
>create can be confusing, the characteristics of each moment are not.  Is the 
>answer found in manipulating the story to make it different from what it is 
>or understand the moments ( kusala or akusala) that create the story?
>Ivan
>______________________________________________________
>

 
117 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 5:17pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  Hi Pinna,
I'm glad to see your messages, do you remember when we last saw one another 
in CM?  You know, K. Sujin is going to there again on the 22-26 this month, 
I will be staying at the same resort, will really miss you!  I haven't been 
back up there since either.  Wish you could come with us like last time,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
118 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 1:53am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  Great replies to the 2 topics & qus. I raised....many thanks to all those 
who responded....those who are THINKING about it, like Jonothan & Robert fro 
two, we look f/w to yr pearls of wisdom when they come!

I liked this response below.  Perhaps we can add further that not only do we 
like certain situations & thereby must dislike others, forgetting all about 
anatta...we like some namas & rupas & therefore must dislike other namas & 
rupas, all the time clinging to 'situations' and stories, in other words, 
always clinging to a 'self' or 'something'.. and yes, how true, as you & 
others have pointed out, our kusala is being tested all the time...as 
K.Sujin once pointed out to me, if we can't pass these easy tests, what will 
we do when the tests are really hard.. (or to that effect).
Sarah


>
>Each moment is Dukkha, nobody can escape this truth. When we 'like' certain
>situations, then we must dislike certain situations. Each moment is anatta,
>we cannot contol situations. Each moment is anicca. The nice situation must
>change.
>Diffucult dilemmas or situations are the test of our kusala.
>
>Best wishes, Alan
>
>
>

 
119 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 2:04am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  Amara, as you say, s'times friends and family may 'react' in a negative way 
to hearing the dhamma, but later consider and accept it more. I think also 
that s'times when we try to explain to family or friends, our attachment to 
them can be a real hindrance...minding whether they understand, wanting them 
to understand more...so many akusala cittas between the few kusala cittas, 
even when talking about the dhamma. As Ivan reminds us, we need to ckeck 
those moments out!
thanks for yr comments,
Sarah
>
>I think the truth is very valuable, even if you don't realize that it is so
>at the moment, there might be times when you recognize that you have heard
>that before, and it is just that much easier to accept in the end.  In this
>case one day it might become clearer to your friend that the DL isn't 
>always
>right and then she might realize that she had heeard it somewhere before.
>Of course the very fact that there is a DL shows how much parts of the
>teachings have been ignored, since the Buddha had attained parinibbana, how
>could he be reborn?  Being based on this belief, the entire teaching is a
>bit 'off'.  You might remind her that the Buddha taught us never to believe
>anything without careful consideration, in fact it is our duty to do so.
>Amara
>
>
______________________________________________________

 
120 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 8:10pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan tthateachings

 
  dear group,
I enjoyed reading all the pieces about parents and
about conversations with those who cling to other
ideas. 
I agree with khun Tannarong that intention is the main
factor. Still, intention arises with both kusala and
akusala cittas, sometimes we intend to do good but it
is still akusala. Consider those fundamental
Christians (I feel guilty using them as an example-
they make too easy a target), who preach the gospel.
There intention is to save us and bring us to heaven-
but the citta is mostly lobha(attachment) associated
with miccha-ditthi(wrongview). It is just the same
with us at times -we think we are doing good but
subtle clinging is there. 

This week  I had discussions with different people. On
monday there are 3 people who meet with me to discuss
Dhamma. They are very interested in all aspects of
buddhism and have strong confidence in kamma and its
results. The discussion flows along so nicely. But
what cittas are involved? There must be moments with
sati and panna but also other moments with clinging.
On that day we had a big lunch and afterwards I had a
slight headache and thus there were moments of
aversion too. Someone complimented me: It wasn't
apparent but, for sure, cittas associated with conceit
immediately arose.
The next day a friend who is devotee of Tibetan
Buddhism came to visit. We talked, as we usually do,
about  how to understand reality. He explained as he
usually does, how studying is not so important: that
it is by 'mind to mind transmission" that
enlightenment occurs and so the real way to get
understanding was to find an enlightened Guru and
devote one's life to him. He has done this and is very
satisfied with the results. This time I didn't feel
like disagreeing, I just listened and asked a few
questions. While he was talking reminders about the
present moment kept coming up (not from him)- it was
all very worthwhile. 
On Wednesday  2 mormon missionaries who know me well
dropped by. We had a long discussion about what could
be known about virtue beyond just faith in a teacher
or religious text. This time I spoke a lot and they
listened. We ended the meeting in agreement about many
issues.

I relate these meetings not as examples of how we
should discuss (or not discuss) the Dhamma. My main
point would be that there are not too many rules to
follow. Sometimes I say things that I know the other
person won't like (as Amara explained it can be an
accumulation that assists later understanding), at
other times I might say nothing. Sometimes I say the
wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at
the wrong time. We do our best depending on our
understanding - the more we develop the more we can
help others.
Robert

 
121 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 9:20pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  I recall reading in a sutta that even of you were to carry your parents 
around on your shoulders for the rest of your life, you would not have 
repaid the debt owed to them.  This is probably because they were the means 
by which we obtained rebirth in this life, and nurtured us to an age of self 
dependence.

This does not mean we should try to act in this manner, or anything like it. 
  There are many ways of giving support, the best of which is to help with 
the understanding of the dhamma.  As one who has lived outside his parents' 
country for all but 2 of the past 25 years or so, I have come to realise 
that, like other forms of kusula, it is a matter of taking opportunities 
that arise and not having preconceived ideas of what I ought to be doing.  
There is the tendency to think we should be doing certain thinks, or at 
least something!

I believe that it was in the Sigolavada Sutta that the Buddha set out the 
duties that various classes of lay people owe to each other.  I recall 
reference to honouring the 6 directions.  Can anybody fill us in on the 
meaning of this in the context of this discussion?
______________________________________________________

 
122 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 1:25pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings

 
  Sarah wrote:
>s'times friends and family may 'react' in a negative way
>to hearing the dhamma, but later consider and accept it more. I think also
>that s'times when we try to explain to family or friends, our attachment to
>them can be a real hindrance...minding whether they understand, wanting 
>them
>to understand more...so many akusala cittas between the few kusala cittas,
>even when talking about the dhamma. As Ivan reminds us, we need to ckeck
>those moments out!

Sarah,
I think you are right about our attachments to people who are close to us, 
which is one of the 'tests' you mentioned, of our own personal lobha and 
dosa.  I was at Shin and Kwan's the other day when a lady who thought she 
had only a short time to live expressed her own fearlessness about her 
problems but her impatience in her own inability to teach someone she 
obviously cared for deeply the dhamma she values so much.  Someone else told 
her that she should study for herself since she still hasn't helped herself 
yet, so how could she help another.  I said I disagreed because I believe 
that one should do the best one can but the rest was up to the person's 
accumulations, which one can never know.  I meant to say that one should do 
kusala without clinging to the results, good or bad, but then I was 
indirectly accused of being angry with the teacher of the dhamma (not K. 
Sujin, I hasten to add).  I almost said that it always angers me if someone 
twisted the dhamma to his own taste, but then I realized he was partly right 
at least, I was angry at his speaking to the lady in that way, especially 
discouraging her from doing kusala as well as saying that she couldn't help 
herself.  But that was all it took to arouse my stronger dosa, which did not 
help anything.  I had said what I thought, that should have been enough.  I 
was in fact clinging to the situation, the events, the 'story' of it all!  
It might have even made me too involved to make as good an argument as I 
should have... something I hope to have the presence of mind next time 
around!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
123 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Feb 9, 2000 2:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2 more newsletters

 
  Hi everyone!
We are trying at DhammaStudy.com to keep everyone up to date with K. Sujin's 
Dhamma discussions held outside Bkk (without other articles it's the best we 
can do!) as well as informed about her itinerary in the States (as arranged 
by Ell and her brother in law Jack) hence the 2 (in fact three counting the 
appendix) new pages.  Please tell us if you find any errors,
Amara


 
124 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 0:03am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless

 
  There is a lot in the suttas about leading the HOMELESS life. Does anyone
know what this means? Also there was a disciple who never slept in the same
place twice, what is the achievment of this?

Cheers, Alan

 
125 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 10:02am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless

 
  Dear Alan,
I remember there was one disciple who never even sat
or laid down. He pracitised the dhutanga to the
highest posible degree. He lived for only about one
month after begining this practice but became an
arahant. He did it as part of the middle way. He had
accumulatons to do this. Others might copy him but
they would be only copying the outward practice not
the inward renunciation which is more important and
not obvious.
Re staying in one place - are we not attached to where
we live. Constantly moving on means there is less time
to accumulate possesions, friends and so on. Again it
is the inward renunciation that is more important.
Robert

--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
> 
> There is a lot in the suttas about leading the
> HOMELESS life. Does anyone
> know what this means? Also there was a disciple who
> never slept in the same
> place twice, what is the achievment of this?
> 
> Cheers, Alan

 
126 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:35am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert's article

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,
Robert has kindly sent us a great article, 'Correspondence with Robert' 
which I have just finished uploading.  It's a must for those who have 
practised or are practising samatha and very interesting for those (like me) 
who have never experienced it!  For easier access click 
here:<DhammaStudy.com>.
Comments appreciated,
Amara

 
127 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 4:05pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article

 
  Thank you for the kind words Amara. If anyone has time
to read it and can give some comments and criticism I
would much appreciate it. I just reread it and noticed
a couple of punctuation mistakes(never have been good
at punctuation-I blame the New Zealnad education
system). 
I'm writing another article which further develops the
same theme.
Robert

--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> Robert has kindly sent us a great article,
> 'Correspondence with Robert' 
> which I have just finished uploading.  It's a must
> for those who have 
> practised or are practising samatha and very
> interesting for those (like me) 
> who have never experienced it!  For easier access
> click 
> here:<DhammaStudy.com>.
> Comments appreciated,
> Amara
>

 
128 From: NT Hense   
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 6:01pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (DhammaStudyGroup) helping elderly parents, Sigalovada Sutta

 
  in the translation of Sigalovada sutta I have it says on the relationship of parents and childrens:
.... The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics  and Brahmans as the Zenith.
 
In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:-
-having supported me I shall support them,
-I shall do their duties,
-I shall keep the family tradition,
-I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
-furthermore, I shall offer alms in honour of my departed relatives.
 
In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:-
-they restrain them from evil,
-they encourage them to do good,
-they train them for a profession,
-they arrange a suitable marriage,
-at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.
 
 
and in Anguttara Nikaya it says: Parents
Monks, one can never repay two persons, I declare. What two? Mother and father.
 
Even if one should carry about his mother on one shoulder and his father on the other, and wihle doing so should live a hundred years, reach an age of a hundred  years; and if he should (attend to them) by annointing them wirh salves, by massaging, bathing and rubbing their limbs, and they should even void their excrements there; even by that would he not do enough for his parents, would not repay them. Even if he were to establish his parents as the supreme lords and rulers over this earth so rich in the seven treasures, he would not do enough for them, would not repay them. What is the cause of that? Parents do much for their children, O monks, they bring them up, feed them, are their guides through this world.
But he, monks, who encourages his unbelieving parents, settles and establishes them in the faith, who encourages his inmoral parents, settles and establishes them in morality; who encourages his stingy parents, settles and establishes them in liberaltiy; who encourages his ignorant parents, settles and establishes them in wisdom, - such a one, O monks, does enough for his parents, he repays and more than repays them for what they have done.
 
It is helpful to read these reminders and not to forget the noble truth that all our doing is conditioned. Which brings us back to the beginning, namely to study nama and rupa.
 
gabi 
 
129 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Feb 11, 2000 2:02am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents

 
  Pinna,
as you comment, how duty is carried out is not clear. We could say, how 
kusala is carried out is not clear either...the best kusala is understanding 
reality and it maybe that nothing is done!

Like you say, (especially in the West I think), maintaining 'independence' 
is very important to the elderly. Both Jonothan's mother and mine would hate 
anyone to live with them and much prefer to take care of themselves..indeed 
it's what keeps them going...They are also fortunate that this is possible.  
Sometimes we are too concerned to impose our value judgments rather than 
allow them to make their own choices.. On my last visit, I tried to urge my 
mother to get a part-time cleaner to help do the chores she avoids, but she 
didn't appreciate my comments at all (or my offer to pay for it)! S'times, 
positive encouragement rather than shows of our concern or worry is more 
helpful. It reminds me of when Jonothan discovered his tumour.  One close 
friend, kept calling & urging us to send him for surgery immediately and 
giving us 'scare' stories of what would happen if we didn't. I'm sure she 
meant well, I know she meant well, but in the end we found it a condition 
for extra worry and I had to politely ask her not to call anymore...We need 
to make our own choices even if they're not the 'best'.

If you stay based in Asia as you'd prefer w/plenty of visits 'home', maybe 
your mother would prefer it...seeing you well and happy may be most 
important to her..No right or wrong of course, and however much thinking and 
planning there is, we don't know what will happen or what we'll do even on a 
conventional level!

As Ivan pointed out, attachment makes life difficult for us in this 
regard....But I also think like Thanarong that it's not just 
attachment....many different moments, kusala and akusala...

I'm glad to hear your mother is still well and healthy....

Sarah>
>

>As Amara said, it is a complex problem.  One side of the issue is duty and
>duty seems clear. But how duty is carried out is also not clear. The other
>side is allowing someone to keep their independence and do things for
>themselves (as my  mother still wants to); allow them to make their own
>decisions as long as they can.  I have observed in my family (extended as
>well as immediate) decisions about health care left to the patient and it 
>is
>not easy to judge when someone knows best for themselves; it is also not
>always easy to see the critical turning point in a person's ability to take
>care of herself / her own health (life-threatening crises are of course
>clear). Is it a duty to impose a change of lifestyle or a different 
>approach
>to health? ......
______________________________________________________

 
130 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 9:18pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Helping elderly parents, Sigalovada Sutta

 
  Gabi,

Welcome to the ranks of the active!

Many thanks for the sutta quotes.  They make interesting reading again after 
a long break.

I find the passage from the Anguttara Nigaya especially poingnant.  First, 
because in terms of worldly support, no amount of support can ever be 
enough.  Secondly because support by way of encouragment in dana, sila and 
bhavana is of immensurable value.  How fortunate we are to be in a position 
to offer the latter (conditions permitting).

Do you, or does anyone, have any thoughts on how the 2 passages apply in our 
lives, ie ministering to one's parents (Sigolavada) vs repaying parents for 
what they have done (Angutara)?

Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
131 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Feb 11, 2000 4:53am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert's article

 
  I'm sorry the 'click here' didn't work last time, let me try again : 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> just to see if it works!
______________________________________________________

 
132 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Feb 14, 2000 3:21pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

 
  Dear Group,
Western  Philosophy is divided on the question of
whether there is free will or whether things are
determined.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to
relate these western concepts to the way things really
are - as explained in Buddhism?
Robert



 
133 From: Lester Wahlqvist   
Date: Mon Feb 14, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

 
  on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:

> Dear Group,
> Western  Philosophy is divided on the question of
> whether there is free will or whether things are
> determined.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to
> relate these western concepts to the way things really
> are - as explained in Buddhism?
> Robert
> 

Hello Robert

Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help:

It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question
rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If
there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill'
essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have
it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such things
- the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or
'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.'

The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western
philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been
endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution.

Lester

-- 
Lester Wahlqvist

 
134 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Feb 14, 2000 0:21pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

 
  >From: Lester Wahlqvist 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism
>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:59:55 +1030
>
>
>on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick 
>wrote:
>
> > Dear Group,
> > Western  Philosophy is divided on the question of
> > whether there is free will or whether things are
> > determined.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to
> > relate these western concepts to the way things really
> > are - as explained in Buddhism?
> > Robert
> >
>
>Hello Robert
>
>Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help:
>
>It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question
>rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If
>there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill'
>essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have
>it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such 
>things
>- the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or
>'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.'
>
>The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western
>philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been
>endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution.
>
>Lester
>


I agree with Lester that there is no concept of non-self in the west or in 
any non-Buddhist tradition, for that matter, with which to relate 
determinism.  Personally I think of vipaka as determined and present (and 
possibly but not certainly future) kamma as free will.  I don't know if it 
would work for anyone else,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
 
136 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Feb 15, 2000 0:10pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

 
  Dear Lester,
Thanks for the great  comments:
--- > It has struck me that the issue of free will
hinges
> around the question
> rather than the answer: What is it that has or
> doesn't have freewill? If
> there is no self to be free or not free then the
> question of 'freewill'
> essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one
> to have it or not have
> it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in
> talking about such things
> - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill,
> but now I don't' or
> 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but
> now I do.'
> 
Robert


 
137 From: Lester Wahlqvist   
Date: Tue Feb 15, 2000 7:14pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

 
  Dear Thannarong Viboonsunti

That was René Descartes (1596-1650) who was a French philosopher and
mathematician, usually associated with the idea of dualism (separation of
mind and body - which has some interesting parallels with the 'nama' &
'rupa' story). 

There's a summary of his life and ideas at
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5507/descartes.html>
if you want to follow him up a bit more.

Happy browsing!

Lester


on 15/2/00 8:08 AM, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
wrote:

> Lester, 
> Who says 'I think therefore I am' in western philosophy that you mentioned
> below? 
> ---------------------------
> 
> 
> At 20:59 14/2/00 +1030, you wrote:
>> on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick >> wrote: 
>> 
>>> Dear Group, 
>>> Western  Philosophy is divided on the question of
>>> whether there is free will or whether things are
>>> determined.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to
>>> relate these western concepts to the way things really
>>> are - as explained in Buddhism?
>>> Robert 
>>> 
>> 
>> Hello Robert 
>> 
>> Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help:
>> 
>> It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question
>> rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If
>> there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill'
>> essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have
>> it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such things
>> - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or
>> 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.'
>> 
>> The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western
>> philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been
>> endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution.
>> 
>> Lester 
>> 
> Thannarong Viboonsunti

-- 
Lester Wahlqvist

 
138 From: Ivan Walsh   
Date: Tue Feb 15, 2000 11:18am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

 
  >Dear Group,
>Western  Philosophy is divided on the question of
>whether there is free will or whether things are
>determined.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to
>relate these western concepts to the way things really
>are - as explained in Buddhism?
>Robert

Prior to discovering the makeup of the atom, western scientists thought they 
stood on floors.  After they found out that the atom was made of almost no 
matter, they realized they were standing on nothing.
Western philosophers, or anybody else for that matter, will believe that 
there is free will or that things are determined, until they understand what 
(ultimate realities) these concepts are made of. Then they will realize that 
there is nothing there, neither the concepts nor a self.
Ivan

______________________________________________________

 
139 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2000 3:43pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] caught up in the story

 
  Dear Friends,
    What Ivan wrote, is quite correct. We are too caught up in the stories that we tend to forget to look at the real fundamentals like citta, cetiska, Rupa. 
    It's tough to contemplate every moment of the reality, but there should be of sometime where we should understand the realisties as it really is and not join the story as we have been carried on for Aoens of lives.
 
with regards,
Shin 
 
140 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:15am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping others

 
  I found this paragraph of Robert's below a very good reminder...and for 
sure, the best way to help others is to develop more understanding....>From: 
Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan tthateachings
>Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 04:10:34 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>dear group,
>I enjoyed reading all the pieces about parents and
>about conversations with those who cling to other
>ideas.
>I agree with khun Tannarong that intention is the main
>factor. Still, intention arises with both kusala and
>akusala cittas, sometimes we intend to do good but it
>is still akusala. Consider those fundamental
>Christians (I feel guilty using them as an example-
>they make too easy a target), who preach the gospel.
>There intention is to save us and bring us to heaven-
>but the citta is mostly lobha(attachment) associated
>with miccha-ditthi(wrongview). It is just the same
>with us at times -we think we are doing good but
>subtle clinging is there.
>
>This week  I had discussions with different people. On
>monday there are 3 people who meet with me to discuss
>Dhamma. They are very interested in all aspects of
>buddhism and have strong confidence in kamma and its
>results. The discussion flows along so nicely. But
>what cittas are involved? There must be moments with
>sati and panna but also other moments with clinging.
>On that day we had a big lunch and afterwards I had a
>slight headache and thus there were moments of
>aversion too. Someone complimented me: It wasn't
>apparent but, for sure, cittas associated with conceit
>immediately arose.
>The next day a friend who is devotee of Tibetan
>Buddhism came to visit. We talked, as we usually do,
>about  how to understand reality. He explained as he
>usually does, how studying is not so important: that
>it is by 'mind to mind transmission" that
>enlightenment occurs and so the real way to get
>understanding was to find an enlightened Guru and
>devote one's life to him. He has done this and is very
>satisfied with the results. This time I didn't feel
>like disagreeing, I just listened and asked a few
>questions. While he was talking reminders about the
>present moment kept coming up (not from him)- it was
>all very worthwhile.
>On Wednesday  2 mormon missionaries who know me well
>dropped by. We had a long discussion about what could
>be known about virtue beyond just faith in a teacher
>or religious text. This time I spoke a lot and they
>listened. We ended the meeting in agreement about many
>issues.
>
>I relate these meetings not as examples of how we
>should discuss (or not discuss) the Dhamma. My main
>point would be that there are not too many rules to
>follow. Sometimes I say things that I know the other
>person won't like (as Amara explained it can be an
>accumulation that assists later understanding), at
>other times I might say nothing. Sometimes I say the
>wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at
>the wrong time. We do our best depending on our
>understanding - the more we develop the more we can
>help others.
>Robert
>

______________________________________________________

 
141 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:20am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping others

 
  Dear all,
sorry the last posting went off before I'd finished editing! It was the 
following paragraph I was referring to as being a good reminder for me and 
especially the last sentence in it. Thanks R.

Sarah

p.s. Lester- great to hear from you on the list...do encourage M. too if she 
can spare us a few moments of her wisdom from Down Under.

>I relate these meetings not as examples of how we
>should discuss (or not discuss) the Dhamma. My main
>point would be that there are not too many rules to
>follow. Sometimes I say things that I know the other
>person won't like (as Amara explained it can be an
>accumulation that assists later understanding), at
>other times I might say nothing. Sometimes I say the
>wrong thing at the right time or the right thing at
>the wrong time. We do our best depending on our
>understanding - the more we develop the more we can
>help others.
>Robert
>
>
______________________________________________________

 
142 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:48pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] The order of the 6 dvara

 
  Sarah,
There was a dhamma discussion today during which I brought up the qu. of the 
order in which the senses are taught and K. Sujin told me that they are 
ranked by importance, just as Jonothan had mentioned, and not in the 
vertical order as I had speculated.  She said there is are reasons given in 
the tripitaka or the comentaries, but said I should look them up myself!
None of the others present remembered where they were either.
Anyone has any idea where this explanation is?
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
143 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Feb 20, 2000 9:32am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Dear Shin,
Good comments. I was just listening to the tapes sarah
sent me from Jan 1 in Bangkok. (thanks Sarah). Khun
Sujin pointed out several times how trying to solve
problems by thinking about the situation, the story,
is not really going to do much. It is the difference
between Buddhism and other ways. Other religions,
psycholgy, self-help books,motivational seminars
cults: they all may help people in some ways but
Buddhism gets to the root of all problems - the idea
of self. Once this is cut away by understanding nama
and rupa as they really are then everything is solved.
Robert
--- shinlin wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>     What Ivan wrote, is quite correct. We are too
> caught up in the stories that we tend to forget to
> look at the real fundamentals like citta, cetiska,
> Rupa. 
>     It's tough to contemplate every moment of the
> reality, but there should be of sometime where we
> should understand the realisties as it really is and
> not join the story as we have been carried on for
> Aoens of lives.
> 
> with regards,
> Shin

 
144 From: shinlin 
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 0:14pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Dear Robert,
    Recently, I have joined the dhamma talks with Archan Sujin and Santi and
have realized that I was too caught up with alot of thinkings before.
Thinking of this and that. The thinking goes on and on. And the lobha tends
to drag us into this thinking process. Therefore if there is no gradual
contemplation of the citta, cetasika and rupa, we will soon develop more
self and caught ourself in this BIG FAT UNREALITY World of our own.
    I have changed my analyzing strategy already and am conscentrating on
more understanding of the reality by reading the Tritipika and discuss more
about the real Dhammas.
    I find it not easy to understand the real Dhamma with such a little
little panna that I have accumulated. Everytime I end up assuming what I
thought of what I have understood. It is scary to study the DHAMMA on our
own without a person who has the RIGHT understand.
    This is my recent understanding of Buddhism.
best regards,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 8:32 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story


>
> Dear Shin,
> Good comments. I was just listening to the tapes sarah
> sent me from Jan 1 in Bangkok. (thanks Sarah). Khun
> Sujin pointed out several times how trying to solve
> problems by thinking about the situation, the story,
> is not really going to do much. It is the difference
> between Buddhism and other ways. Other religions,
> psycholgy, self-help books,motivational seminars
> cults: they all may help people in some ways but
> Buddhism gets to the root of all problems - the idea
> of self. Once this is cut away by understanding nama
> and rupa as they really are then everything is solved.
> Robert
> --- shinlin wrote:
> > Dear Friends,
> >     What Ivan wrote, is quite correct. We are too
> > caught up in the stories that we tend to forget to
> > look at the real fundamentals like citta, cetiska,
> > Rupa.
> >     It's tough to contemplate every moment of the
> > reality, but there should be of sometime where we
> > should understand the realisties as it really is and
> > not join the story as we have been carried on for
> > Aoens of lives.
> >
> > with regards,
> > Shin
> >

 
145 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 2:07pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Dear Shin,
It sounds to me like you are on the right track. It
might feel a little discouraging to realize that we
know so very little about the real nature of dhammas.
But it is  better to accept this than to think we know
a lot. 
We still have the entire Tipitaka and commentaries in
a very pure form; when we study them it is like we are
listening to the Buddha now.  We study the texts, we
consider, we begin to study realities directly.

As you know it is not a matter of remembering lists of
different clasifications in the Abhidhamma but of
applying and testing what we have studied with the
realities we experience now. Yesterday Khun Amara
wrote about the eye-door being important. How do we
consider that? Is it just an interesting fact? Or does
it condition more interest now in  studying colour and
seeing? At this moment colour is appearing through the
eye-door - do we get lost in the stories that the
different colours condition or can we analyse and
dissect - even just a little- the different realities.


And if we are lost in the story can we accept that? It
is the truth at this moment. Concepts arise because of
the thinking process - and the thinking processes are
real. We can study the different moments - the
different feelings, the lobha, dosa, moha, or amoha
alohba etc. that the different moments of thinking are
rooted in. 

How do we study realities? Is there a subtle wish to
get something?

Even when we begin to understand dhmmas it is mostly
thinking about them rather than direct experience. Do
we accept this or do we want more? The right
reflection helps to let go of the idea of a self who
is having undestanding. Then there are more conditions
for direct experience (of the true kind) But even
right reflection can get in the way –if there is
clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content 
because life is now better understood. 
It is good to remember that we are not trying to have
any experience. None at all. You might object – "I
want to experience Nibbana." This is just lobha,
wanting.
"OK, then I want to experience namma-rupa parricheda
nana." 
Lobha.
Or we have beeen around awhile , we know the right
answer “I just want to understand the present moment”.
But how much desire is in that “want”. Even if it is
very slight it will block understanding. It is so hard
to comprehend. There is chanda that arises with kusala
a citta and there is chanda that arise with akusala.
What is the difference between them? What is the
difference between chanda and lobha? When there is
kusala of satippatthana there is detachment at that
moment. Then again the moments are short – hard to be
sure it was correct. At times we might feel detached
from objects, but is this wisdom or is it merely
boredom? Do we want to be sure – lobha again. If we
aren’t sure then we aren’t sure- it is the truth at
that moment. It has to be this way because there is no
self to control anything. Conditions arise by their
own manifold conditions. 

I hope this doesn't discourage you. Every moment we
consider the teachings or study realities in the right
way is a moment that panna is developing. If we are
going in the right direction, no matter how slowly, it
is much better than going in the wrong direction, no
matter how fast. (sometimes we go in the wrong
direction too - can't control that - but we can begin
to understand it).
Robert



 
146 From: shinlin 
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 4:31pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Dear Robert,
    Thankyou for your mail. The mail that K.Amara mentioned,  I have
considered on looking at the Tipitaka. I was talking dhamma with Kwan
yesterday night about this order. He does not intend to guess at all. So the
only way to get the answer is look at the real reference. I will be
purchasing a set of Tipitaka next week. So probably this question will be
answered by somebody already.

best regards,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 1:07 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story


> Dear Shin,
> It sounds to me like you are on the right track. It
> might feel a little discouraging to realize that we
> know so very little about the real nature of dhammas.
> But it is  better to accept this than to think we know
> a lot.
> We still have the entire Tipitaka and commentaries in
> a very pure form; when we study them it is like we are
> listening to the Buddha now.  We study the texts, we
> consider, we begin to study realities directly.
>
> As you know it is not a matter of remembering lists of
> different clasifications in the Abhidhamma but of
> applying and testing what we have studied with the
> realities we experience now. Yesterday Khun Amara
> wrote about the eye-door being important. How do we
> consider that? Is it just an interesting fact? Or does
> it condition more interest now in  studying colour and
> seeing? At this moment colour is appearing through the
> eye-door - do we get lost in the stories that the
> different colours condition or can we analyse and
> dissect - even just a little- the different realities.
>
>
> And if we are lost in the story can we accept that? It
> is the truth at this moment. Concepts arise because of
> the thinking process - and the thinking processes are
> real. We can study the different moments - the
> different feelings, the lobha, dosa, moha, or amoha
> alohba etc. that the different moments of thinking are
> rooted in.
>
> How do we study realities? Is there a subtle wish to
> get something?
>
> Even when we begin to understand dhmmas it is mostly
> thinking about them rather than direct experience. Do
> we accept this or do we want more? The right
> reflection helps to let go of the idea of a self who
> is having undestanding. Then there are more conditions
> for direct experience (of the true kind) But even
> right reflection can get in the way -if there is
> clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content
> because life is now better understood.
> It is good to remember that we are not trying to have
> any experience. None at all. You might object - "I
> want to experience Nibbana." This is just lobha,
> wanting.
> "OK, then I want to experience namma-rupa parricheda
> nana."
> Lobha.
> Or we have beeen around awhile , we know the right
> answer "I just want to understand the present moment".
> But how much desire is in that "want". Even if it is
> very slight it will block understanding. It is so hard
> to comprehend. There is chanda that arises with kusala
> a citta and there is chanda that arise with akusala.
> What is the difference between them? What is the
> difference between chanda and lobha? When there is
> kusala of satippatthana there is detachment at that
> moment. Then again the moments are short - hard to be
> sure it was correct. At times we might feel detached
> from objects, but is this wisdom or is it merely
> boredom? Do we want to be sure - lobha again. If we
> aren't sure then we aren't sure- it is the truth at
> that moment. It has to be this way because there is no
> self to control anything. Conditions arise by their
> own manifold conditions.
>
> I hope this doesn't discourage you. Every moment we
> consider the teachings or study realities in the right
> way is a moment that panna is developing. If we are
> going in the right direction, no matter how slowly, it
> is much better than going in the wrong direction, no
> matter how fast. (sometimes we go in the wrong
> direction too - can't control that - but we can begin
> to understand it).
> Robert
>

 
147 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2000 7:04am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Right now we're caught up in 'the tumour' story..actually we're caught uo in 
'the celebration of the shrinkage of the tumour' story....over 50% and on 
its way out for those interested...very remarkable and very lucky!

Reminds us how susceptible we are to the 8 worldly coditions which someone 
may kindly quote in full...so susceptible to gain and loss and to health and 
sickness...we celebrate when it goes well and cry when it goes badly, all 
the time taking the stories and in this case the tumour for 
something....just many moments of seeing, hearing, hardness, softness 
etc...just another story...

But it's not a matter of changing our way of thinking or concentrating on 
some new ideas of dhamma but of accepting and understanding the realities 
which appear. So the thinking is real, whatever the concepts. And however 
crazy it may seem, thinking can be the object of understanding and awareness 
too. As Robert implies in his super long response to Shin, any selection or 
preference for certain realities reflects the strong clinging to self...


I've written this to give myself reminders as much as anyone else!

Sarah

______________________________________________________

 
148 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 2:57am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article

 
  Sorry, Robert & Amara, I'm probably being dim, but I've not been able to 
find it...pls give some directions then i'll be interested to read/comment.

Sarah

>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article
>Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:05:53 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>Thank you for the kind words Amara. If anyone has time
>to read it and can give some comments and criticism I
>would much appreciate it. I just reread it and noticed
>a couple of punctuation mistakes(never have been good
>at punctuation-I blame the New Zealnad education
>system).
>I'm writing another article which further develops the
>same theme.
>Robert
>
>--- amara chay  wrote:
> >
> > Dear friends in the dhamma,
> > Robert has kindly sent us a great article,
> > 'Correspondence with Robert'
> > which I have just finished uploading.  It's a must
> > for those who have
> > practised or are practising samatha and very
> > interesting for those (like me)
> > who have never experienced it!  For easier access
> > click
> > here:<DhammaStudy.com>.
> > Comments appreciated,
> > Amara
> >

______________________________________________________

 
149 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 7:57pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article

 
  Dear Sarah ,
It is under the beginner section of the English
section. Here is the
url:http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> 
> Sorry, Robert & Amara, I'm probably being dim, but
> I've not been able to 
> find it...pls give some directions then i'll be
> interested to read/comment.
> 
> Sarah
> 

 
150 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 4:25pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:04:45 CST
>
>
>Right now we're caught up in 'the tumour' story..actually we're caught uo 
>in
>'the celebration of the shrinkage of the tumour' story....over 50% and on
>its way out for those interested...very remarkable and very lucky!

Dear friends in the dhamma,
I have just returned from Chiengmai this evening, and it is wonderful to 
hear the good news (attachments, attachments!) and I hope this continues for 
you!

For my part I have just heard one of the best teachings that K. Sujin has 
ever made, in an idyllic setting of a beautiful flower filled valley, to, 
sadest of events, the resigning vice president of the foundation, who, 
although one of the finest gentleman, did not appear have the panna to 
listen to her at all...(Just another story to add to the infinite list of 
stories, but one which to me was one of the most momentous events in my 
life).  It does not concern his resignation but it is such an indescribable 
speech that I will try to translate the transcription as soon as I can.

I told her that my life would not have been a waste of time just to hear 
that speech alone. I only hope my translation can come near to doing it 
justice.

It was very frightening to me that a person who has listened to the dhamma 
for thirty years could turn his back to her teachings, although
he greeted us all with the best hospitality, it reminded me of the infinite 
danger of vatta, we should never be over-confident, or not careful because 
we are all growing older and all our faculties have a tendency to wear down 
so that one day we might forget about studying the dhamma.  Even if we were 
young, once you are born you are on your way towards death.  Each moment of 
sati is very precious, indeed, because we never know when we will die and 
panna is the only treasure we can take with us to our next lifetime.

Still, this regretable situation gave rise to this wonderful speech, and I 
hope to share its benefits with you soon,
Amara



151 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 10:08am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Dear Jonothon, 
I am very happy to  hear about the progress in your
health. 
Dear Khun amara,
I really look forward to your translation of khun
sujins speech. Please work night and day (I am
joking).   
> you wrote "It was very frightening to me that a
person who has
> listened to the dhamma 
> for thirty years could turn his back to her
> teachings,"

It all demonstrates anatta. We might decide that we
will always have right view. But it doesn't work that
way. The variuos conditions work according to their
own laws. As you say we shouldn't be overconfident.

Do you know what he thought was wrong?. I talked to
some people who were in India when he first decided to
go a different way. At that time he refused to say
what he objected to.
Robert



 
152 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 1:00pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] promoting the discussion group

 
  --- Dear Amara,
It might be worth considering putting a sign in box
for this discussion group on your site. on the
contents section of the English site would be the
ideal place.
You can get a custom made one by going to
http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/info.html
and then going down to Promote and clicking on it.
They give you instructions from there.
Robert

 
153 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 5:50am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  >I really look forward to your translation of khun
>sujins speech. Please work night and day (I am
>joking).

I'm sorry to say that we'll have to wait for the Thai transcript of the 
recordings first, as soon as I have that it won't take long for the 
translation (I hope!).


>Do you know what he thought was wrong?. I talked to
>some people who were in India when he first decided to
>go a different way. At that time he refused to say
>what he objected to.


Somehow he thinks we have all been misinterpreting the teachings, that  only 
he understands the dhamma as the Buddha taught, which is all based on 
memorization and contemplation, without his realizing it was all thoughts:
for example one can take a glass and consider it sila(!) because we did not 
steal it from anyone.  We can consider it dana, because if we gave it away, 
it would be so, we can even consider it payogha because we reach for it!!!!! 
  There is no more mention of studying the realities that appear...
He refuses to answer questions for those confused or to reason with anyone, 
and whispered and laughed with his friend while K. Sujin talked, etc.  I 
seriously wonder if he is still in his right mind except that in normal 
society outside the conference room he was as gentlemanly as ever.  It's as 
if he were two different persons at the same time, the moment Dhamma is 
mentioned his face gets dark, clouded and, even distorted.
We were devastated (I was!) because we had all been such good friends and we 
love him and his wife very much even now, but K. Sujin said there has been 
metta, karuna, muddhita and so now there should be upekha (as difficult as 
it is!)  We can only hope that his better accumulations could help him come 
back to the truth one day...
It was a terrible lesson for me, I really feel now that sati is the most 
precious thing in life and we should not neglect the slightest chance of 
allowing it to happen and to accumulate the right conditions for it to arise 
by studying the dhamma, and K. Sujin is the best teacher I have ever known.
Anumodana with all who are on the right path,
Amara


______________________________________________________

 
154 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:09am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: promoting the discussion group

 
  Dear Amara,
>It might be worth considering putting a sign in box
>for this discussion group on your site. on the
>contents section of the English site would be the
>ideal place.
>You can get a custom made one by going to
>http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/info.html
>and then going down to Promote and clicking on it.
>They give you instructions from there.
>Robert


Dear Robert,
I have never seen one yet, but wouldn't people think it was just an ad or 
something of the sort?  I was thinking of an article in a newsletter to 
announce it and explain how it functions etc.  I think I mentioned it once 
before but no one seemed interested in writing it up, so I thought no one 
thought it was relevant.
Amara.
______________________________________________________

 
155 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 7:26pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The order of the 6 dvara

 
  Amara wrote-
>There was a dhamma discussion today during which I brought up the qu. of 
>the
>order in which the senses are taught and K. Sujin told me that they are
>ranked by importance, just as Jonothan had mentioned, and not in the
>vertical order as I had speculated.  She said there is are reasons given in
>the tripitaka or the comentaries, but said I should look them up myself!
>None of the others present remembered where they were either.
>Anyone has any idea where this explanation is?

I'm sure Nina would know where to find this.  What a pity she is not 
on-line.
______________________________________________________

 
156 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Feb 27, 2000 3:44am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DhammaStudy.com

 
  >Dear Amara,
> >It might be worth considering putting a sign in box
> >for this discussion group on your site.


Dear friends in the dhamma,
It just occured to me to protest that <DhammaStudy.com> is not my personal 
site, it was originally set up as part of K. Sujin's foundation, to which we 
are still affiliated.  It would not be in existence at all but for the 
effort of many people including Robert himself, and the person who taught me 
almost all I know about computers, our secretary-technician Kesinee 
Kun-Anek.  It will continue to operate only as long as people consider it as 
thiers too, and help us correct mistakes as well as grow, as Tom and Bev 
have been doing.  Please think of it as ours and we can discuss how we might 
best represent the dhamma in today's world, the ideal situation would be if 
it, like the dhamma, belonged to no one and to all.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
157 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Feb 28, 2000 0:21am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Amara,

I am very grateful that you let us know about these occasions and 
discussions and good daily life examples for applying our understanding. 
Talking about the value of uppekkha, K. Sujin is really a wonderful 
example....it doesn't mean we don't do all we can to help, but the help 
should be with detachment rather than attachment.

As Robert mentions, these examples reflect the anattaness of realities.  We 
think someone has heard a lot of dhamma and accumulated a lot of 
understanding, but in the end unless we have reached the stage of sotapanna, 
we can go 'off track' at any time and be influenced by other views.  Also, 
it's not a matter of how much we read or how long we have listened to the 
dhamma but of how much wise flection and development of understanding of the 
realities which appear now there is.  As you imply, life is precious, 
moments of wise reflection of the teachings and especially moments of panna 
are precious and we don't know what tests are ahead.  I heard (when i was in 
Bkk) that this person had been faced with some difficult tests during the 
financial crisis and maybe didn't have enough confidence in right 
understanding of the dhamma to pass the tests at that time. Perhaps later.

Our disappointment shows our expectation for sure!

By the way, what is vatta?

I'm also looking f/w to yr translation of the talk - it must have been a 
wonderful experience.  If it's not too inconvenient, Jonothan would like a 
copy of the talk in Thai to listen to.  Our new add from Apr1 will be: Flat 
9F, One StarCrest, 9 Star Street, Hong Kong.

Thanks, Sarah
>
>For my part I have just heard one of the best teachings that K. Sujin has
>ever made, in an idyllic setting of a beautiful flower filled valley, to,
>sadest of events, the resigning vice president of the foundation, who,
>although one of the finest gentleman, did not appear have the panna to
>listen to her at all...(Just another story to add to the infinite list of
>stories, but one which to me was one of the most momentous events in my
>life).  It does not concern his resignation but it is such an indescribable
>speech that I will try to translate the transcription as soon as I can.
>
>I told her that my life would not have been a waste of time just to hear
>that speech alone. I only hope my translation can come near to doing it
>justice.
>
>It was very frightening to me that a person who has listened to the dhamma
>for thirty years could turn his back to her teachings, although
>he greeted us all with the best hospitality, it reminded me of the infinite
>danger of vatta, we should never be over-confident, or not careful because
>we are all growing older and all our faculties have a tendency to wear down
>so that one day we might forget about studying the dhamma.  Even if we were
>young, once you are born you are on your way towards death.  Each moment of
>sati is very precious, indeed, because we never know when we will die and
>panna is the only treasure we can take with us to our next lifetime.
>
>Still, this regretable situation gave rise to this wonderful speech, and I
>hope to share its benefits with you soon,
>Amara

______________________________________________________

 
158 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Feb 28, 2000 3:59am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: caught up in the story

 
  Sarah,
It's my privilege entirely!

Vatta is the infinite cycles of rebirths, (vatta = a circle or to circle).

I am still waiting for both the tape and the transcript, I'm sorry to say... 
  I forgot to tell you that K. Sujin and most of the others are returning to 
BKK only today because the trip was extended, and I couldn't stay on 
because, as I told everyone, I had my personal arahanta waiting for me at 
home!
Amara


______________________________________________________

 
159 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Feb 29, 2000 3:06am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] No Subject

 
  Dear Friends in the dhamma,
The latest addition to our site, as of this morning, is a page about the 
DhammaStudy Discussion Group, DSDG in the index.  Please have a look and see 
if there needs to be any changes (my mother found it a bit 'risque' at first 
until I told her it was titled 'evolution'!)
Amara



______________________________________________________

 
160 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Feb 29, 2000 2:51pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG

 
  DeaR amara,
It is almost perfect, it looks nice.
But instead of DSDG on the contents page perhaps
"Internet Discussion Group" will let people know
exactly what it is.
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> Dear Friends in the dhamma,
> The latest addition to our site, as of this morning,
> is a page about the 
> DhammaStudy Discussion Group, DSDG in the index. 
> Please have a look and see 
> if there needs to be any changes (my mother found it
> a bit 'risque' at first 
> until I told her it was titled 'evolution'!)
> Amara

 
161 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Feb 29, 2000 11:58am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG

 
  Dear Robert,
I rather prefer the more discreet DSDG, people might find it more 
intriguing.
Let's put it to a vote!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
162 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 2, 2000 3:10pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG

 
  Amara,

I am just catching up on things after being mostly off-line for the past 2-3 
weeks due to pressure of work.  Like others, I am looking forward very much 
to your translation of Khun Sujin's talk.  (I would also like to order a 
copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.)

Thanks for putting the link into your website.  I suppose I would vote in 
favour of a 3rd option, "Internet Discussion Group" or something similar.

The link actually contains 2 options for the visitor.  One is to subscribe, 
the other is to visit the archives.  You may wish to make this clear by some 
suitable wording, if revising the link page at some time.

By the way, when making a posting to this listgroup which makes reference to 
your website, feel free to include in your message a link to the website.  
(The same goes for Alan.)

Keep up the good work!

Jonothan


Amara wrote
>I rather prefer the more discreet DSDG, people might find it more
>intriguing.
>Let's put it to a vote!

______________________________________________________

 
163 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Mar 2, 2000 2:52pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG

 
  (I would also like to
>order a
>copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.)
Jonothan,
I will be getting my copy tomorrow, will make you one and send it to you 
myself.

>Thanks for putting the link into your website.  I suppose I would vote in
>favour of a 3rd option, "Internet Discussion Group" or something similar.
That would be one vote in favor of Robert's suggestion, then.

>The link actually contains 2 options for the visitor.  One is to subscribe,
>the other is to visit the archives.  You may wish to make this clear by 
>some
>suitable wording, if revising the link page at some time.
Feel free to reword the page, as you realize I took it from your 
introduction of the discussion group!  Just send the correction to me and I 
will put it up.

>By the way, when making a posting to this listgroup which makes reference 
>to
>your website, feel free to include in your message a link to the website.
>(The same goes for Alan.)
Thanks, will do!
Amara
>Keep up the good work!
>
>Jonothan
>
>
>Amara wrote
>>I rather prefer the more discreet DSDG, people might find it more
>>intriguing.
>>Let's put it to a vote!

______________________________________________________

 
164 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Mar 2, 2000 8:12pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG

 
  Personal I think DSDG looks like the title to one of those dodgy sites I'd 
rather not visit.
Rosan

 
165 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Mar 3, 2000 3:35am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG

 
  Two, I guess three for Robert,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 

 
166 From: shinlin 
Date: Mon Mar 6, 2000 1:53pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ

 
  Dear Pi Joy,
K. Olarn would like to join the disscussion of the DSDG. The mail will send
to his mails. I really don't know what to do. Pls help me by helping K.Olarn
to be able to join the discussion.
Thankyou.
best regards,
Shin

 
167 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Mar 6, 2000 7:30am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ

 
  Dear Shin,
I just sent you a reply, I hope you got it!  (I said to ask Jonothan, he 
would be glad to send the subscription message for you.)  I saw that he also 
wrote to DS, so I was a bit worried that Ket did not see it because her 
computer crashed, or rather, her modem did, so she didn't tell me about it.  
As secretary to the site, all mail go to her!
Do you know Ks Olarn & Kalya personally?  Her question is so short, I wonder 
if she is having problems in these difficult days.
I have asked Ket to open the mail tomorrow from my machine, so we can see if 
she wrote anything else.
How is your translation coming?  Did you find my pages any help?
Amara


______________________________________________________

 
168 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Mar 6, 2000 11:53pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article

 
  Robert, only just got round to reading 'Correspondence with Robert' and I 
found it very good!.....as you said, maybe a little polishing up later, but 
a lot of good material. Keep it up. I'd like to encourage anyone who hasn't 
read it to do so at the website below. (I gave my printout to J. after a 
quick read, so can't make further comments until I have it in front of me 
again...will do so then).

By the way, Amara & Alan, it would be useful to have the website appear here 
in blue so anyone can just 'zap' it as they do on other sites. Maybe Tom & 
Bev can help w/ this!

>Dear Sarah ,
>It is under the beginner section of the English
>section. Here is the
>url:http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html
>Robert
> >

 
169 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 9:06pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps

 
  Dear All,

Nina van Gorkom has just written a small book called 'Following Asoka's
Footsteps'. This is about her recent holy trip to India with khun Sujin. It
is now on my web site under the e-books section, but will need adobe
acrobat reader in order to view it. Adobe Acrobat is available on almost
all cd's that come with computer magazines as well as being available
online.

Best wishes, Alan

 
170 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 4:15pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS

 
  Alan,
I'm glad to hear about your new addition and really look forward to reading 
Nina's latest book- I will right away!

And everyone,
We also have a small new article for those who read Thai, in answer to a 
question we received, translated as "Why were we born?"  This is in a new 
section of Q&A in Thai translated as, "You Ask, We Answer".  Another great 
background of colliding galaxies by NASA, by the way.  English readers will 
have to wait a while for the translation!

Sarah,
I will put a link in DSDG's 'LINKS' section so you can zap it more easily.  
We are also sending you the tape tomorrow, so please tell us when you get 
it,

Shin,
I forgot to tell you that you must send your friend's e-mail address to 
Jonothan so he can send the subscription form, as I said, I have been 
unsuccessful when I tried, so perhaps the founders of the group have more 
success at it!  Looking forward to more questions,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
171 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Mar 8, 2000 11:07am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps

 
  dear alan,
I just read over the message about sponsoring in
Taking refuge .._ It is great.

Recently I received the proofs of Realities and
Concepts . The inside cover says published by Dhamma
Study and Support Foundation. 
I was at a meeting with Khun sujin and others last
year and we discussed the name. Many people didn't
like propagation and Ivan suggested changing it to
support - which I strongly agreed with. Apparently
this has been finalized as I didn't mention anything
to the printers yet the new name is on the book.

Once I go to thailand I will gather a few hundred
copies to bring back to japan. We can then announce on
the internet that these are available for free
distribution. 
Robert

--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Nina van Gorkom has just written a small book called
> 'Following Asoka's
> Footsteps'. This is about her recent holy trip to
> India with khun Sujin. It
> is now on my web site under the e-books section, but
> will need adobe
> acrobat reader in order to view it. Adobe Acrobat is
> available on almost
> all cd's that come with computer magazines as well
> as being available
> online.
> 
> Best wishes, Alan
> 

 
172 From: shinlin 
Date: Wed Mar 8, 2000 6:48pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ

 
  Dear Pi Joy,
    K. Olarn is a very good friend of both Pi Kwan and I. He was the one who
introduced me to listen to K. Sujin. And I gotten some understanding when I
talked to K. Olarn.
    I don't know Jonathon's email address.
best regards,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
To: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 2:30 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: »Ñ­ËÒ¸ÃÃÁÐ


> Dear Shin,
> I just sent you a reply, I hope you got it!  (I said to ask Jonothan, he
> would be glad to send the subscription message for you.)  I saw that he
also
> wrote to DS, so I was a bit worried that Ket did not see it because her
> computer crashed, or rather, her modem did, so she didn't tell me about
it.
> As secretary to the site, all mail go to her!
> Do you know Ks Olarn & Kalya personally?  Her question is so short, I
wonder
> if she is having problems in these difficult days.
> I have asked Ket to open the mail tomorrow from my machine, so we can see
if
> she wrote anything else.
> How is your translation coming?  Did you find my pages any help?
> Amara
>

 
173 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Mar 8, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:

 
  >     I don't know Jonathon's email address.
>best regards,
>Shin

Dear Shin,
I meant just tell Jonothan through this posting, he's probably reading this 
but he can't send the subscription form for you if he doesn't have your 
friend's address.  By the way, is Khun Kalya K. Olarn's wife?  Yesterday Ket 
opened DS's mail and found his message among the others and Varee wrote the 
reply.

In any case I sent them the answer already and have put Varee's excellent 
explanations on the web, as I announced yesterday.  In fact it's so short 
that I have just finished translating it to English and have put it up as 
Q&A2, with the same spectacular background of 2 galaxies colliding.

Anyone interested could click on the 'Links' sign above (on the page at the 
DSDG site) or here <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Any comments or 
corrections will be appreciated,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
174 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joining-up new members

 
  Shin,

The list is open to anyone to join.  It is not necessary to receive an 
invitation first.  Just tell your friend to send a (blank) messaage to 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215> and they will be able to register 
in the usual way.

Apologies for not posting this sooner.

jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
175 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Mar 13, 2000 3:12pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joining-up new members

 
  Shin,

Further to my earlier messsage, I should have added that anyone can browse 
the messages (current or old) by going to the following address:

http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup

Some people may wish to do this before deciding whether to join up.

Jonothan




______________________________________________________

 
176 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Mar 13, 2000 5:49pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DS

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

DS has added a new page to its intermediate section, 'Kammasakata-Nana', an 
excerpt form the dhamma discussion at Utayan Lan Na.  I realized during the 
translation that we have all heard it all before, maybe it was the context, 
the situation as well as the surroundings that so impressed me at the time, 
as well as the rest of the discussion which lasted about a day and a half.  
Some people also liked other parts better, but to translate all or even only 
the parts where Khun Sujin talked would have been long for me, at least for 
the moment.  You will find the new page at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html>

As usual, we would appreciate any comments or corrections,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
177 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Mar 14, 2000 5:36am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] DS

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

Just to inform you that 'Kammasakata' has been moved to the advanced section 
of DS, because of its difficulty.  If anyone disagrees please inform us.  
This does not affect the url <http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html> 
for those interested, but if you go to <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> please 
look for it in the advanced section.

Amara
______________________________________________________

 
178 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Wed Mar 15, 2000 9:13am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article

 
  Amara,

Many thanks for the translation of Khun Sujin's talk on kammasakata-nana, which
I have just seen.  It is a very interesting area of discussion.  And quite
meaty!  I certainly agree with it being classified as advanced.  I have printed
out a copy which I will read over carefully (I find that a monitor is good for
skimming but not codicuve to careful reading).

I am sure the translation involved a lot of work.  Anumodana.

Jonothan

 
179 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Mar 15, 2000 5:57am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article

 
  >I have printed
>out a copy which I will read over carefully (I find that a monitor is good 
>for
>skimming but not codicuve to careful reading).


Jonothan,

I have just received a revision of the document from Robert, which I have 
just finished putting up, which makes a much better reading (many thanks to 
Robert!), and which you might like to print out.  I will print one out 
myself for K. Sujin when we next see her.

Amara

______________________________________________________

 
180 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Mar 15, 2000 6:26pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article

 
  >I have just received a revision of the document from Robert, which I have
>just finished putting up, which makes a much better reading (many thanks to
>Robert!), and which you might like to print out.  I will print one out
>myself for K. Sujin when we next see her.
>
>Amara

Amara,
Yes, I have done that.  Fortunately, I had not deleted your previous message 
with the link to the URL.  It's great to have that convenience.
Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
 
181 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 11:10am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article

 
  ---> Dear Amara,
I am now working on the article some more to make it
easier to read- and putting English translations with
the Pali terms as you suggested. Could you tell me the
story of when the talk was given. I want to add a few
sentences at the beginning to give some background. So
how many people were present?. What is the actual
place, is it historical , a garden etc? people came
from Bangkok , chaingmai , other places? Anything else
that I might be able to add. Was it a special
occasion?

And thank you very much for translating it. It is a
really important talk. Pure Abhidhamma - which means
pure daily life. It is all happening right now, just
as the Buddha described. These sort of talks naturally
incline the mind towards investigating  for ourselves.
Hearing Dhamma is a vital paccaya for panna to
develop.
I am sure Ivan will appreciate reading over it.
Robert


> >I have just received a revision of the document
> from Robert, which I have
> >just finished putting up, which makes a much better
> reading (many thanks to
> >Robert!), and which you might like to print out.  I
> will print one out
> >myself for K. Sujin when we next see her.
> >
> >Amara
> 
> Amara,
> Yes, I have done that.  Fortunately, I had not
> deleted your previous message 
> with the link to the URL.  It's great to have that
> convenience.
> Jonothan
>

 
182 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 10:17am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS - New article

 
  >Could you tell me the
>story of when the talk was given. I want to add a few
>sentences at the beginning to give some background.

Robert,
I've just sent you the information with perhaps more details than I should 
have, to your private e-mail.
I look forward to seeing what you make of it,
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
183 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 10:53pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa as a conditioned reality

 
  I had heard many times that dosa/aversion arises because of our attachments, 
expectations etc.  But I had not fully appreciated, until reading it in 
'Cetasikas' recently, that dosa can only arise in the sensuous planes of 
existence ie where there is clinging to sense objects.  So if there are no 
conditions for clinging to sense objects, no conditions for dosa also.

I find that understanding this, if only at an intellectual level, is helpful 
in understanding dosa as simply a conditioned reality.

I suppose it's obvious when you think about it.
______________________________________________________

 
184 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 10:59pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps

 
  Nina van Gorkom has just written a small book called 'Following Asoka's
>Footsteps'. This is about her recent holy trip to India with khun Sujin. It
>is now on my web site under the e-books section, but will need adobe
>acrobat reader in order to view it. Adobe Acrobat is available on almost
>all cd's that come with computer magazines as well as being available
>online.
>
>Best wishes, Alan

Alan,
Many thanks for putting this on your website.  I am looking forward to 
reading it.
Can I suggest you include a link to the URL whenever you mention your 
website?  It will make it a lot easier to follow up on the article being 
referred to.
Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
185 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 16, 2000 11:07pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DS

 
  >Shin,
>I forgot to tell you that you must send your friend's e-mail address to
>Jonothan so he can send the subscription form, as I said, I have been
>unsuccessful when I tried, so perhaps the founders of the group have more
>success at it!  Looking forward to more questions,
>Amara

Amara, Shin,
Have you passed on the joining-up procedure to the people you had in mind?  
Let me know if my message was not clear or if there are any difficulties.
Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
186 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Mar 17, 2000 4:04am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality

 
  >I had heard many times that dosa/aversion arises because of our 
>attachments,
>expectations etc.  But I had not fully appreciated, until reading it in
>'Cetasikas' recently, that dosa can only arise in the sensuous planes of
>existence ie where there is clinging to sense objects.  So if there are no
>conditions for clinging to sense objects, no conditions for dosa also.


Jonothan,

I would like to add that since only the anagami and the arahanta have 
eradicated dosa, we will have to keep studying its characteristics for a 
very long time!

In some ways it is not as dangerous as lobha, I think, which is there almost 
all the time, subtly leading us on without our realizing it.  But as you say 
they are only conditioned realities, and not beyond the power of panna, 
though accumulated by tiny instants of sati, to eradicate when it is strong 
enough.

I find it fascinating and encouraging to think of the power of sati, the 
single touch on the knife handle, to extinguish such formidable, long ruling 
kilesa that we have continually collected over an eternity; the moment it is 
ready, though one can never know beforehand when that moment will come.

All we can be certain of is that this is the right path that the Buddha has 
shown us and our duty is to keep on walking, step by step until we can see 
for ourselves what it is like to be there.  So long as we do not 
procrastinate too much along the way, and especially not fall off or TURN 
AWAY (my personal nightmare at the moment!) we can get there one day.

Again I think all reminders for sati is valuable, including our discussions,
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
187 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Mar 18, 2000 0:33am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: personal nightmares

 
  Amara,

I had a problem w/the home computer and a change made by 'hotline' made me 
think there was no mail on this list for the last week- this was becoming my 
personal nightmare....that everyone had abandoned it! Just goes to show how 
the personal nightmares are a figment of our imagination or rather of being 
lost in those stories we talk about so often.

On the subject of stories, I was also going to ask you to add some details, 
perhaps here if you can, to accompayny the reading of the article. Somehow 
the realities become more meaningful and memorable and as R suggests, the 
daily life nature more apparent. I think it's also useful for those not in 
Thailand to understand the context (and maybe the lobha just needs a few 
stories to latch onto at the same time that all that panna and sati are 
developing!) So pls don't just send the background details to Robert's 
private email, but share w/ yr friends here too!

I am so happy (yes, lots and lots of lobha!) to see all the correspondence 
while I've been 'away' and it's great to see the URL headings, J & Amara! I 
really look f/w to catching up w/ the articles & books you all mention. 
Thanx for the great support!

Robert, we will ALL appreciate reading over it!
Sarah

p.s. we had a long chat w/Susie in Canada on Sun. She has no computer at 
home by choice and cannot use the work one for personal- hope she joins us 
later!  Amara, she may contact you re K.S. trip to San Fran

>---> Dear Amara,
>I am now working on the article some more to make it
>easier to read- and putting English translations with
>the Pali terms as you suggested. Could you tell me the
>story of when the talk was given. I want to add a few
>sentences at the beginning to give some background. So
>how many people were present?. What is the actual
>place, is it historical , a garden etc? people came
>from Bangkok , chaingmai , other places? Anything else
>that I might be able to add. Was it a special
>occasion?
>
>And thank you very much for translating it. It is a
>really important talk. Pure Abhidhamma - which means
>pure daily life. It is all happening right now, just
>as the Buddha described. These sort of talks naturally
>incline the mind towards investigating  for ourselves.
>Hearing Dhamma is a vital paccaya for panna to
>develop.
>I am sure Ivan will appreciate reading over it.
>Robert
>

______________________________________________________

 
188 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Mar 17, 2000 4:12pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: personal nightmares

 
  >On the subject of stories, I was also going to ask you to add some details,
>perhaps here if you can, to accompayny the reading of the article. Somehow
>the realities become more meaningful and memorable and as R suggests, the
>daily life nature more apparent.


Sarah,
I hope you don't think that I  hesitate to share these things with the 
group, but since I had put a banner on the DSDG page of the website anyone 
can wander in and take a look at our posting archive, and this inside event 
might not interest them.  Luckily Robert told me to keep a copy of the 
explanations I gave him, which he also added to his reply, so that now I 
have both, and will send them to you right away.  If you'd like to pass them 
on, please feel free to do so, I have complete trust in your discretion.


>I
>really look f/w to catching up w/ the articles & books you all mention.
>Thanx for the great support!
>
>Robert, we will ALL appreciate reading over it!
>Sarah

I have put the last revision up just now, and hope to add Robert's 
additional notes soon,


>p.s. we had a long chat w/Susie in Canada on Sun. She has no computer at
>home by choice and cannot use the work one for personal- hope she joins us
>later!  Amara, she may contact you re K.S. trip to San Fran

It will really be a pleasure to hear from her, I really look forward to 
that!

And to facilitate your zapping pleasure, click here for the site:
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
189 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Mar 18, 2000 0:09pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality

 
  Amara,

>From: "amara chay" 
>I would like to add that since only the anagami and the arahanta have
>eradicated dosa, we will have to keep studying its characteristics for a
>very long time!

I,m afraid so!  Yes, the anagami has eradicatd all clinging to sensuous 
objects, and therefore all conditions for the arising of dosa.  He/she still 
has clinging to becoming/rebirth, but this level of clinging is not a 
condition for dosa to arise.

>In some ways it is not as dangerous as lobha, I think, which is there 
>almost
>all the time, subtly leading us on without our realizing it.

It is the subtleness of lobha, including the very subtle pleasant feeling 
that can accompany it, that makes it so difficult to see.

>I find it fascinating and encouraging to think of the power of sati, the
>single touch on the knife handle, to extinguish such formidable, long 
>ruling
>kilesa that we have continually collected over an eternity; the moment it 
>is
>ready, though one can never know beforehand when that moment will come.
>
>All we can be certain of is that this is the right path that the Buddha has
>shown us and our duty is to keep on walking, step by step until we can see
>for ourselves what it is like to be there.  So long as we do not
>procrastinate too much along the way, and especially not fall off or TURN
>AWAY (my personal nightmare at the moment!) we can get there one day.

Yes, it is scary when someone apparently well established in the development 
of understanding in daily life goes off on another tack.  The best 'defense' 
against this happening to ourselves I suppose is to honestly acknowledge our 
tendencies to wrong view as and when they arise from time to time.  The 
paradox:  seeing more and more these tendencies in ourselves is a positive 
thing!

I, too, find all the reminders coming through a great help.

Jonothan
PS  I have received the tape.  Anumodana to you and your mother, to whom I 
send my best regards.  It is classic Khun Sujin stuff with, as always, a 
slightly different emphasis.  Many thanks.
______________________________________________________

 
190 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Mar 19, 2000 6:52pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] our mana boost at DS

 
  Dear Group,

You might like to see what one of our readers (evidently a great dhamma 
reader!) wrote in our guestbook at DS <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, the 
section called 'From Our Readers', then click on the 'guestbook' sign with 
the flowers!

I am correcting the English spelling mistakes with the invaluable help of 
Tom, who has also helped me cut the loading time by at least 30% (by using 
the services of a free website called Website Garage, 
<http://websitegarage.netscape.com/O=wsg/start.html> for those interested), 
which I am sure will please our regular visitors.

My mother will be seeing K. Sujin on the 9th, I will see if we have time to 
show her the improvements as well as our latest additions, and of course the 
guestbook!

With lots of lobha as well as chanda (and a tiny bit of sati?),
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
191 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Mar 20, 2000 5:41am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina W.

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

This morning Tanarong e-mailed me some bad news about our friend Nina 
Wimuttikosol in Nakorn Phanom, who has had quite a serious but luckily not 
life-threatening traffic accident and is presently hospitalized at the local 
institution.

One really never knows what will happen the next instant, it really is 
aniccata, as K. Sujin tells us,

Amara


 
192 From: Mike Potter   
Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 10:51am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!

 
  Hi!

I just joined this group and want to introduce myself.  I've read many
of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear.  I've
recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in
allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my
website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of
resources on Abhidhamma studies.  I'm in the process of getting a
wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and
Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get
permission to do so.  There are extensive offerings there and I invite
you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/)

I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness.
 It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding
there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-)

With metta,

Mike Potter

 
193 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 3:48pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina W.

 
  Amara,

Thanks for the information about Nina W.  I have emailed Tanarong for more 
details and a possible contact number.

Like you said, we never know what will happen at the next instant.  On the 
same day as I received your message I also heard from an acquaintance whom 
we met in Indonesia at the time I had my own bad news last August.  She 
wrote to say she had just finished 3 months' radiation therapy after surgery 
for breast cancer - all in the time since we had last had contact in 
October!

I was thinking the other day about health as one of the worldy conditions.  
I find this helpful, because the other pleasant worldy conditions are all 
things we readily accept as being fleeting, occasional or something that 
comes to us by chance.  Health is no different from these.  Yet somehow we 
tend think of bodily health as a state that, if we do the right things, is 
achievable on a long-term basis.

Jonothan


>From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina W.
>Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:41:34 PST
>
>
>Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
>This morning Tanarong e-mailed me some bad news about our friend Nina
>Wimuttikosol in Nakorn Phanom, who has had quite a serious but luckily not
>life-threatening traffic accident and is presently hospitalized at the 
>local
>institution.
>
>One really never knows what will happen the next instant, it really is
>aniccata, as K. Sujin tells us,
>
>Amara

______________________________________________________

 
194 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 9:30am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello!

 
  >I've read many
>of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear.  I've
>recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in
>allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my
>website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of
>resources on Abhidhamma studies.  I'm in the process of getting a
>wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and
>Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get
>permission to do so.  There are extensive offerings there and I invite
>you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/)
>
>I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness.
>  It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding
>there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-)
>

Hi, mike,

Welcome!  I am in charge of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation's 
website, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and fellow member of this discussion 
group.  If you like books by Nina you will really enjoy visiting our 
website, we have quite a few plus several articles, and will be adding some 
more.  We also have several parts of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's masterpiece, 
'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced section which contain 
detailed explanations about the citta, plus a brand new article called 
'Kammasakata-nana' which I highly recommend if you are interested in the 
bhavanga citta and rebirth, precisely.  In fact I look forward to hearing 
your comments about the whole thing, including the children's section (just 
a trial run!), for my part I will immediately visit your site!

I look forward to exchanging our views on dhamma points also,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
195 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Mar 23, 2000 10:08am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina W.

 
  >Yet somehow we
>tend think of bodily health as a state that, if we do the right things, is
>achievable on a long-term basis.


Jonothan,
That is quite natural, I think, we all still have the misconcept of the self 
who can control our health which can only be eradicated at the level of the 
sotapanna, after all we have accumulated the attachment to the self over 
such a long period.  We all have lived with the self for much longer than we 
ever did in the times of the teachings.  Even if we were present at all the 
Buddhas' times, their teachings last for such an infinitessimal period 
compared to the times of ignorance in between.  I hate to sound 
self-congratulating all the time, but we are really lucky to be born while 
the teachings are still available and quite complete, despite the developing 
corruptions.  The thing is to make the most of it while we can, we can never 
tell what we have in store for our next lives, or even this one, one moment 
to the next.  It is so encouraging to think that sati can arise at any time 
or place with the right conditions!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
 
196 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:10pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello!

 
  Mike,
Welcome to the list.  I will certainly check out your website.  We look 
forward to your seeing your comments or questions on the list.
Jonothan

>From: "Mike Potter" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!
>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:51:38 -0800
>
>
>Hi!
>
>I just joined this group and want to introduce myself.  I've read many
>of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear.  I've
>recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in
>allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my
>website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of
>resources on Abhidhamma studies.  I'm in the process of getting a
>wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and
>Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get
>permission to do so.  There are extensive offerings there and I invite
>you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/)
>
>I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness.
>  It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding
>there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-)
>
>With metta,
>
>Mike Potter
>
______________________________________________________

 
197 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:16am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality

 
  >I, too, find all the reminders coming through a great help.
>
>Jonothan
>PS  I have received the tape.  Anumodana to you and your mother, to whom I
>send my best regards.  It is classic Khun Sujin stuff with, as always, a
>slightly different emphasis.  Many thanks.


Jonothan,

what is the slightly different emphasis you heard? May we all share in this? 
  And anything else you found especially helpful in summary form pls!
Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
198 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:25am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: our mana boost at DS

 
  >My mother will be seeing K. Sujin on the 9th, I will see if we have time to
>show her the improvements as well as our latest additions, and of course 
>the
>guestbook!
>
>With lots of lobha as well as chanda (and a tiny bit of sati?),
>Amara

Amara,
look f/w to catching up w/the additions shortly. Our move is on April 4th 
and when I'm not working I'm supervising workmen and all the rest...a real 
test of patience and equanimity (which I don't always pass!...different 
moments!)

pls would you tell her about how this discussion group is going too. She 
always encourages me and everyone else to talk and write about daily life 
experiences as  dhamma students....this was in my mind when we decided to 
start the group!
Sarah


______________________________________________________

 
199 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:41am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mike's Hello!

 
  Mike,
glad you've found us and introduced yrself. Actually there are some other 
new members who prefer to 'lurk' in the background which is fine....but an 
occasional 'hello' or quick intro so people know you're w/us would be 
appreciated by all I'm sure....!

Yr note reminds me that we should pass on the listserve address to Nina Van 
G. Even tho' she doesn't have internet, she can pass it on to anyonw who 
writes to her or asks qus she's too busy to answer. Alan, pls add a link for 
Mike and others from time to time as Amara does! (or Amara, maybe you can 
give his link too, now you're so computerliterate!)

Mike, like Jonothan & Amara, I look f/w to yr questions, comments or 
answers! ..and also look f/w to checking yr link SOON!
Sarah

>
>
>Hi!
>
>I just joined this group and want to introduce myself.  I've read many
>of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to be very clear.  I've
>recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller has been helpful in
>allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in Daily Life on my
>website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a number of
>resources on Abhidhamma studies.  I'm in the process of getting a
>wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the Bhavanga and
>Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as I can get
>permission to do so.  There are extensive offerings there and I invite
>you to explore it (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/)
>
>I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation techniques and mindfulness.
>  It was helpful to be reminded that even when there is no understanding
>there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-)
>
>With metta,
>
>Mike Potter
>

______________________________________________________