1600 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:50am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear list-members, Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to. I'm only familiar with a few of the names of the participants here such as Robert, Mike, and Mary (and Theresa, if she is the same one on D-L). Since I have been on this list only a short time, I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing by quoting the so-called 38 va~ncaka dhammas that Gayan is translating for us. This is the first time I have heard about them and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na. I have included this mainly for reference and the correct Pali spellings. 1. appa.tikkuulasa~n~naamukhena kaamacchando va~ncetiiti yujjati. 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati. 3. samaadhimukhena thinamiddha.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 6. ubhayapakkhasantiira.namukhena vicikicchaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 7. i.t.thaani.t.thasamupekkhanamukhena sammoho va~ncetiiti yujjati. 8. atta~n~nutaamukhena attani aparibhavane maano va~ncetiiti yujjati. 9. viima.msaamukhenahetupatiruupakapariggahena micchaadi.t.thi va~ncetiiti yujjati. 10. virattataapatiruupakenasattesu adayaapannataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 11. anu~n~naatapa.tisevanapatiruupataaya kaamasukhallikaanuyogo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 12. aajiivapaarisuddhipatiruupataaya asa.mvibhaagasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 13. sa.mvibhaagasiilataapatiruupataaya micchaajiivo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 14. asa.msaggavihaaritaapatiruupataaya asa"ngahasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 15. sa"ngahasiilataapatiruupataaya ananulomikasa.msaggo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 16. saccavaaditaapatiruupataaya pisu.navaacaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 17. apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 18. piyavaaditaapatiruupataaya caa.tukamyataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 19. mitabhaa.nitaapatiruupataaya asammodanasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 20. sammodanasiilataapatiruupataaya maayaa saa.theyya~nca va~ncetiiti yujjati. 21. niggayhavaaditaapatiruupataaya pharusavaacataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 22. paapagarahitaapatiruupataaya paravajjaanupassitaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 23. kulaanuddhayataapatiruupataaya kulamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 24. aavaasacira.t.thitikaamataamukhena aavaasamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 25. dhammaparibandhaparihara.namukhena dhammamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 26. dhammadesanaabhiratimukhena bhassaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 27. apharusavaacataaga.naanuggahakara.namukhena sa"nga.nikaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 28. pu~n~nakaamataapatiruupataaya kammaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 29. sa.mvegapatiruupena cittasantaapo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 30. saddhaalutaapatiruupataaya aparikkhataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. 31. viima.msanaapatiruupena assaddhiya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 32. attaadhipateyyapatiruupena garuuna.m anusaasaniyaa appadakkhi.naggaahitaa a~ncetiiti yujjati. 33. dhammaadhipateyyapatiruupena sabrahmacaariisu agaarava.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. 34. lokaadhipateyyapatiruupena attani dhamme ca paribhavo va~ncetiiti yujjati. 35. mettaayanaamukhena raago va~ncetiiti yujjati. 36. karu.naayanaapatiruupena soko a~ncetiiti yujjati. 37. muditaavihaarapatiruupena pahaaso va~ncetiiti yujjati. 38. upekkhaavihaarapatiruupena kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. -- from Nettippakara.na-a.t.thakathaa, p. 90 (Myanmar edition) Best wishes, Jim Anderson, a Canadian living in rural Ontario 1601 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... Mike is good, Ma'am! (What a can of worms I've open with my verbal habits...!) Your Friend, Mike! --- A T wrote: > Dear Khun Amara, > > Yes, Ma'am. We are born of habits. I'll try my > very best to call you > Amara, and please call me Alex. Thank you, Ma'am. > > I bet Khun Mike is glad that we continue to call > him Mike. Is it right, > Sir? :-))) > > Alex :-))) > > 1602 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Q&A5 Excellent, Amara, I found these letters very helpful and am delighted they'll be together where I can refer to them--without storing them in my email directory! Thanks again, Mike --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear all, (again!) > > Just a word about the new page just up today- also > my own invention > but refering to the Tipitaka saying anusaya are like > sediments- in > the Q&A section of a > set of letters I > combined to call 'The Crystal Caudron Set' of my own > witch's brew- > if anyone wants me to take it out please scream!!!! > > Amara > > > 1603 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma Dear Amara and Robert, I want to express my appreciation for the extreme care you're both showing with regard to the instruction we can receive here. Brava, and bravo! By the way, Amara--I read all the Harry Potters in a week, too--the last three in three days! HAH! (What a delightful waste of time...!) Mike 1604 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Friends, Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware! Mike --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear friends, > > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. > Friends in Bkk, you must be > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the > following (or just ignore > it)... > > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there > have been reports about > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > dress up in disguise > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > When caught, his excuse > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > discussion.... well if he bumps > into Robert there, it could even be true! > > apologies for this frivolity! > > Sarah > > > 1605 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > The more understanding there is, the more easily we > can live in the world of > conventional realities without confusion, > disturbance and wrong view. Thanks, Sarah, This pretty much sums up my present working assumption, thanks to you all. Recently, Robert(?) encouraged the submission of 'real-life' examples--so here goes: The other day, I was taking a sauna (which I often do, when I have time). I followed a stint in the sauna with one in a VERY cold shower. 'I have' a lifelong dislike of cold, and can always expect quite an onslaught of dosa during this phase of the sauna experience. The dosa arose, along with plenty of dukkhavedana, but then I noticed something else--there were long moments, of varying duration when I KNEW that dosa was NOT arising--and others when I KNEW that neither sukkha-nor-dukkha-vedana was arising--i.e., that 'I' was aware of their non-arising at the moments of their non-arising. There was nothing else particularly remarkable about these moments, except the certainty that these realities were NOT arising (followed by further moments when they certainly were arising again). Of course this was followed by retrospection again, though immediately after the fact; still, it seemed significant because (for once) the retrospection was (I THINK) of the memory of the arising and subsiding of realities, rather than the memory of unrealities (ideas, concepts etc). Or was it just reflection of a mind-object again? Comments, please? Thanks in advance, Mike 1607 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear friends, I think that in Thailand or anywhere else, there are 2 types of monks: the ones who are on the Path, and the ones who *pretend* to be monks for whatever reasons. It's the 2nd type is the ones who cause the misunderstanding in the public. I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they have ID to prove that they are really monks. From time to time, a police may check any monk for his ID. Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we still can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look around when walking. Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period. In fact, my monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. Young ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect them to be laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for marriage. Is it true, my dear Thai friends? Alex Tran >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:53:19 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Friends, > >Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? >This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware! > >Mike > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. > > Friends in Bkk, you must be > > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the > > following (or just ignore > > it)... > > > > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there > > have been reports about > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > > dress up in disguise > > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > > When caught, his excuse > > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > > discussion.... well if he bumps > > into Robert there, it could even be true! > > > > apologies for this frivolity! > > > > Sarah 1608 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Friends, I think this incident serves as a good reminder for "us" to press forward with the development of panna. Although monks, since Buddha time, found different reasons to ordain, not all of which led to Nibhana. Somehow, it feels like the recent years have been disastrous for the Thai sangha in term of public credibility (maybe it has always been like this, I was just never around to see it). This, in addition to the societal movement toward materialism and even more sensuality, isn't a good condition for people to discover buddhism and learn realities. For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today than tomorrow. Who knows if I am still around tomorrow. Even if I come back as human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what state it will be in. It's only been 2500 yrs, and things have gotten this worse. Just imagine what it will be a thousand years from now, even a couple of hundred years. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? > This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware! > > Mike > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead. > > Friends in Bkk, you must be > > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the > > following (or just ignore > > it)... > > > > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there > > have been reports about > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > > dress up in disguise > > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > > When caught, his excuse > > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > > discussion.... well if he bumps > > into Robert there, it could even be true! > > > > apologies for this frivolity! > > > > Sarah > > > > 1609 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, These notorious monks are in fact ordained. The IDs wouldn't have differentiate these monks from the people who just dress up. A Thai man is not required to become a monk temporarily: it is traditionally encouraged/forced for many reasons including: 1) It is considered by some to be the rite of passage, to teach young men moralities 2) It is misunderstood that the parents will gain merit resulting from their son becoming ordained I personally only met a monk who told a story along the same line of what happened to him, and hear many other stories in the way you would hear about urban legends. All in all, though, they are just that: stories. --- A T wrote: > I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they > have ID > to prove that they are really monks. From time to time, a police may > check > any monk for his ID. Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we > still > can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look > around > when walking. > > Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period. In > fact, my > monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. > Young > ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect > them to be > laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for > > marriage. > 1610 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Kom, Of course you're right, and I don't mean to make light of a serious issue. But there is a bright side to this--if those Thai people who are fed up with corrupt monks begin to find and put their support behind the good monks who do still exist, and, better yet, to direct their support towards direct understanding of realities (and to those who teach this way), this could be a really good development for the 'Sasana Thai'. Still, your point is well-taken. The sasana (if I understand correctly) is in a constant state of deterioration and the longer we wait, the less opportunity, presumably, we'll have to hear the real dhammavinaya. Regards, Mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I think this incident serves as a good reminder for > "us" to press > forward > with the development of panna. Although monks, > since Buddha time, > found > different reasons to ordain, not all of which led to > Nibhana. Somehow, > it > feels like the recent years have been disastrous for > the Thai sangha in > term > of public credibility (maybe it has always been like > this, I was just > never around to see it). This, in addition to the > societal movement > toward materialism and even more sensuality, isn't a > good condition for > people to discover buddhism and learn realities. > > For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today > than tomorrow. > Who knows if I am still around tomorrow. Even if I > come back as > human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what > state it will be in. > It's only been 2500 yrs, and things have gotten > this worse. Just > imagine what it will be a thousand years from now, > even a couple of > hundred years. > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism > here? > > This could very well lead to a > Karaokevada--beware! > > > > Mike > > 1611 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure wrote: > Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists > of different > cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away > rapidly. These > are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. > let us consider a couple of thinking. > 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of > thinking > that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation > or your > no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and > cetasikas. > The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. > 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or > not). Again > same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the > thinking process > are real but the object, mother and father, is > concept- not > real. > 3. If your mother and father were right in front of > you now > (talking to you) and you think of them, again the > object is > concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. > The colours > are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father > is concept. > Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is > number 2 and > especially number 3 that in daily life we get > confused by. No, numbers 2 and 3 are also quite clear, thanks (though I did like the illustration in 1). > Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for > object, not > concepts. Right. Got that, now, and I think I know the source of my confusion. I was mistaking the (conceptual and retrospective) understanding of the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and emptiness of unrealities for insight into realities. > Does this mean we should try not to think > of concepts? Not anymore! > Some would have us do this but this is not the > middle way. All > the arahants thought of concepts but they could > never confuse > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand > dhammas > directly even during the processes of thinking that > take > concepts for objects. Really! Interesting... > > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise > and > > fall away. Concepts of people and things do not > arise > > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." > Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only > realities have > actual characteristics and functions and arise and > pass away. Thanks, still don't quite 'get' that one, but at least I'll be less likely to mistake the retrospective understanding of unrealities for real sati in future... Thanks again, Mike 1612 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- protectID wrote: > You have been doing a lot > of putting down > and picking up lately! Well, sure--what are you going to do when you've been carrying around a big load of s--t all your life, and a nice bunch of people dump a load of pure gold at your feet... > We all have an idea in our mind of what it must be > like to be > enlightened. And we all have ideas of what needs > doing to become > like that. On both scores our ideas are likely to > be deeply flawed. > It is a matter of exposing these ideas to the hard > glare of scrutiny - > our own and others' - with the aid of a better and > better > understanding of the teachings, even if only at an > intellectual level. Yes, I'm glad of this, as I don't seem to see any other way to proceed... > On the question of intellectual understanding (ie > understanding at a > theoretical level), note the difference between this > and > intellectualisation. Seeking to clarify the proper > basis for the > arising of awareness so that awareness can arise at > the present > moment can hardly be called intellectualisation. Yes, that's fair enough--intellectualization seems usually to have the characteristic of building up elaborate structures--not at all the same thing as acquiring understanding, i.e. putting down useless structure and acquiring something like tools for discernment (even though in retrospect)... > Nor is it something > we are likely to be overdoing (although that would > not be impossible). I'll worry about that in the unlikely event that it becomes a serious threat...! > Actually, even when understanding at an intellectual > level has been > firmly established, we need to be continually > reminded of the > realitiies appearing at the present moment, because > the natural > tendency is to think that something else is more > worth knowing. So > in this sense we are forever getting back to basics > and starting over > (or, to use your analogy, moving out of state). > Like it or not, > that's how it must be! Well, I like it better than I would have expected. Actually, it feels good to be doing some honest work for a change... Thanks as always, Mike 1613 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... --- A T wrote: > I'm a slow learner. Why do I doubt that? > That's > why Sarah (?) could say that she saw the big > progress you have made since > joining the group. I think I've just had a little more practice talking about this stuff. Making my'self' sound smart is a long and carefully practiced specialty of 'mine'--don't be fooled! > Like you, the books written by Ajaan Sujin (I > just cannot call her Khun > Sujin any longer, even though I don't know what Khun > means exactly) and NVG > are on the top lists of priority among my books. I just finished BIDL today--what a book! It's a primer, but I think it may be the best book on dhamma I've ever read (pali texts aside, of course!), and there's enough material in there to re-read for a year. But I can't (and won't) wait to get on to the next one... > With recent learning, I > see that my formal meditation time may be integrated > into daily activities > better than before. Brava! I hope to, maybe, manage the same thing someday... > Most importantly, I realize > that whatever happens will > happen because of the uncontrollable conditions, and > absolutely there's no > Self involved. ...then you're way ahead of me, sister... > May you continue growing in Dhamma. I'm looking > forward to read more of > your wonderful posts. Back at you Alex, and thanks, as always... Mike 1614 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ... --- A T wrote: > Mike is very polite. Sometimes, he's so polite > that I feel he's pulling > my leg. :-))) Not at all! I have far to much respect for that splendid limb, Madame... > Just joking, Mike. Me too! By the way, I'm glad to know that Ajahn (or Acharn) comes from achariya. You're all my achariya here, so I guess, mainly, I'll just keep calling you all 'sir' and 'ma'am'--hope you don't mind--just 'my' anusaya, I guess... Regards, Mike 1615 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:56am Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just > recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to > join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working > directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects > of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related > treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in > the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to. > I'm only familiar with a few of the names of the participants here such as > Robert, Mike, and Mary (and Theresa, if she is the same one on D-L). Dear Jim, Welcome to the list, I guess I just missed your posting last night, signing off just before! I think we are rather the lucky ones to have someone with such a facility to check things for us in the future! > Since I have been on this list only a short time, I'm not sure if I'm > doing the right thing by quoting the so-called 38 va~ncaka dhammas that > Gayan is translating for us. I for one am very grateful that you did, and everyone else would be interested to know as well, I am sure. I am printing out your list for them now. This is the first time I have heard about them > and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the commentary on > the Nettippakara.na. So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references given: 'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." ' **** It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have them but the tika DO? Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, and which one is the one containing the list? > I have included this mainly for reference and the > correct Pali spellings. > > 1. appa.tikkuulasa~n~naamukhena kaamacchando va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 3. samaadhimukhena thinamiddha.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 6. ubhayapakkhasantiira.namukhena vicikicchaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 7. i.t.thaani.t.thasamupekkhanamukhena sammoho va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 8. atta~n~nutaamukhena attani aparibhavane maano va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 9. viima.msaamukhenahetupatiruupakapariggahena micchaadi.t.thi va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 10. virattataapatiruupakenasattesu adayaapannataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 11. anu~n~naatapa.tisevanapatiruupataaya kaamasukhallikaanuyogo va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 12. aajiivapaarisuddhipatiruupataaya asa.mvibhaagasiilataa va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 13. sa.mvibhaagasiilataapatiruupataaya micchaajiivo va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 14. asa.msaggavihaaritaapatiruupataaya asa"ngahasiilataa va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 15. sa"ngahasiilataapatiruupataaya ananulomikasa.msaggo va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 16. saccavaaditaapatiruupataaya pisu.navaacaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 17. apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 18. piyavaaditaapatiruupataaya caa.tukamyataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 19. mitabhaa.nitaapatiruupataaya asammodanasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 20. sammodanasiilataapatiruupataaya maayaa saa.theyya~nca va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 21. niggayhavaaditaapatiruupataaya pharusavaacataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 22. paapagarahitaapatiruupataaya paravajjaanupassitaa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 23. kulaanuddhayataapatiruupataaya kulamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 24. aavaasacira.t.thitikaamataamukhena aavaasamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 25. dhammaparibandhaparihara.namukhena dhammamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 26. dhammadesanaabhiratimukhena bhassaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 27. apharusavaacataaga.naanuggahakara.namukhena sa"nga.nikaaraamataa > va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 28. pu~n~nakaamataapatiruupataaya kammaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 29. sa.mvegapatiruupena cittasantaapo va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 30. saddhaalutaapatiruupataaya aparikkhataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 31. viima.msanaapatiruupena assaddhiya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 32. attaadhipateyyapatiruupena garuuna.m anusaasaniyaa > appadakkhi.naggaahitaa a~ncetiiti yujjati. > 33. dhammaadhipateyyapatiruupena sabrahmacaariisu agaarava.m va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 34. lokaadhipateyyapatiruupena attani dhamme ca paribhavo va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > 35. mettaayanaamukhena raago va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 36. karu.naayanaapatiruupena soko a~ncetiiti yujjati. > 37. muditaavihaarapatiruupena pahaaso va~ncetiiti yujjati. > 38. upekkhaavihaarapatiruupena kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandataa > va~ncetiiti yujjati. > > -- from Nettippakara.na-a.t.thakathaa, p. 90 (Myanmar edition) > > Best wishes, > Jim Anderson, a Canadian living in rural Ontario Anumodana, I look forward to your participations very much! Amara 1616 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Amara, atthakatha = commentary tika = sub-commentary :o) netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha, Thanks Robert! Thanks Jim! Thanks amara! 1617 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) If I may add to this: Thank you again Gayan, Jim and Amara! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Amara, > > atthakatha = commentary > > tika = sub-commentary > > :o) > > netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary > > there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha, > > Thanks Robert! > Thanks Jim! > Thanks amara! > > > > 1618 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Thanks ALL! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Amara, > > atthakatha = commentary > > tika = sub-commentary > > :o) > > netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana > commenary > > there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the > atthakatha, > > Thanks Robert! > Thanks Jim! > Thanks amara! > > > > 1619 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:03am Subject: Re: Karaoke again > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would > > dress up in disguise > > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke. > > When caught, his excuse > > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual > > discussion.... well if he bumps > > into Robert there, it could even be true! Dear all, If this is the same case I heard of, he is also being charged with impersonation of an officer because he was disguised as an army general! Amara 1620 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna > > Comments, please? > Dear Mike, Bravo to you! Vicikiccha can only be eradicated by panna of the sotapanna level, since the succession of citta is so formidable fast, in fact so fast it is a wonder that awareness can arise at all! But with the proper conditions, anything can happen, so again, Anumodana, Amara 1621 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:13am Subject: Re: Karaoke again > For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today than tomorrow. > Who knows if I am still around tomorrow. Even if I come back as > human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what state it will be in. Dear Kom, Anumodana for your mention of maranasati, Amara PS. please look for my private note off-list 1622 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:28am Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > atthakatha = commentary > > tika = sub-commentary > > :o) > > netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary > > there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha, Dear Gayan, Thanks for the obvious- Hope you don't mind my checking with Jim! Amara 1623 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure > > > Some would have us do this but this is not the > > middle way. All > > the arahants thought of concepts but they could > > never confuse > > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand > > dhammas > > directly even during the processes of thinking that > > take > > concepts for objects. > > Really! Interesting... > Actually I will have to be more precise here. The cittas are arising and passing away - billions in a split second. So, in between the cittas that are repeatedly taking concept for an object panna and sati can arise and understand something of this. The actual moments that there is concept for object there cannot be at the same time satipatthana. Is that clear? Thanks Robert 1624 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > > > Some would have us do this but this is not the > > > middle way. All > > > the arahants thought of concepts but they could > > > never confuse > > > concept for reality. Panna and sati can > understand > > > dhammas > > > directly even during the processes of thinking > that > > > take > > > concepts for objects. > > > > Really! Interesting... > > > Actually I will have to be more precise here. The > cittas are > arising and passing away - billions in a split > second. So, in > between the cittas that are repeatedly taking > concept for an > object panna and sati can arise and understand > something of > this. > The actual moments that there is concept for object > there cannot > be at the same time satipatthana. Is that clear? Yes--and thanks! Mike 1625 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again I see your point Mike. I think the most dangerous ones are not those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one takes them seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep vinaya but who mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most likely to lead us astray. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > Of course you're right, and I don't mean to make light > of a serious issue. But there is a bright side to > this--if those Thai people who are fed up with corrupt > monks begin to find and put their support behind the > good monks who do still exist, and, better yet, to > direct their support towards direct understanding of > realities (and to those who teach this way), this > could be a really good development for the 'Sasana > Thai'. > > Still, your point is well-taken. The sasana (if I > understand correctly) is in a constant state of > deterioration and the longer we wait, the less > opportunity, presumably, we'll have to hear the real > dhammavinaya. > > Regards, > > Mike > > 1626 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Jim, Much merit for giving the timely reference. [ I couldn't find an english source where vangcaka dhammas appear, I asked for one from robert . Eventhough he didnt have one , he told me the interest he rightaway had in this.] Dear Amara As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference. I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary ) rgds. 1627 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again wrote: > I think the most dangerous > ones are not > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one > takes them > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep > vinaya but who > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most > likely to lead us > astray. At least some of us! Interesting, it's kind of back to the Karaoke. That is, that the really insidious danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad fortune is like a spear in your face. Good fortune is like a spear at the back of your neck." This is similar, I think... Thanks, as always, Robert, Mike 1628 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:10pm Subject: Ch - IV 9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi vanceti. kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a very useful 'tool' . This is praised by the buddha. The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self. Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated . Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to see many conditions that supports his ditthi. [ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see supporting 'facts' for it.... when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting 'facts' for it... when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he will................................ when one has anattasanna............................... when one believes in kamma , rebirth................... when one does not believe in kamma, rebirth...................... ] So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa kusala dhamma, it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena) 10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti. kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness to spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc. This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for them but seeing the danger in the samsara. (greater samsara bhaya ) the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , responsibility for others. One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this akusala as the former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala. The point here is to know the kusala as the kusala , and the akusala as the akusala.So one cannot get cheated by akusala. contd. 1629 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:24pm Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference. > > I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary ) Dear Gayan, As usual you seem to have difficulty with your references, I can only copy one of yours as they can so easily contradict themselves: The complete list is from the commentary on > the Nettippakara.na. So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references given: 'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." ' **** It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have them but the tika DO? Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, and which one is the one containing the list? Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of citta arise as you write these things? Or the cetasika that accompany them? Amara 1630 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear amara, Please clarify again. (i think this is useful to the others in the list ) I said " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." and Jim said " The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na. So what is the contradiction here? you said "Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of citta arise as you write these things? Or the cetasika that accompany them?" I think all in the group can learn a lot of things from wahts happening here rgds "amara chay" on 10/31/2000 10:24:21 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference. > > I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary ) Dear Gayan, As usual you seem to have difficulty with your references, I can only copy one of yours as they can so easily contradict themselves: The complete list is from the commentary on > the Nettippakara.na. So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references given: 'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." ' **** It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have them but the tika DO? Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, and which one is the one containing the list? Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of citta arise as you write these things? Or the cetasika that accompany them? Amara 1631 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch - IV Dear gayan, Thank you again. See my comments below. --- protectID wrote: > > 9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi > vanceti. > > kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a > very useful > 'tool' . > This is praised by the buddha. > The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self. > Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated . > > Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to > see many > conditions that supports his ditthi. > [ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see > supporting 'facts' for > it.... > when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting > 'facts' for it... > when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he > will................................ > when one has anattasanna............................... > when one believes in kamma , rebirth................... > when one does not believe in kamma, > rebirth...................... ] > > So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa > kusala dhamma, > it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena) This is just so daily life isn't it! Mike wrote to me about the same thing off-list recently - about how we rationalize and find all sorts of ways to justify our beliefs. It is a very hard one to detect indeed. > > 10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti. > > kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness > to > spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc. > This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for > them but seeing > the danger in the samsara. > (greater samsara bhaya ) > > the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , > responsibility for > others. > One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this > akusala as the > former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala. > I certainly know this one! I was very irresonsible (still am) family wise but could always justify it to myself as "detachment". But it is simply selfishness. Once again thanks for bringing all this to our attention. I hope Jim will have time (from time to time) to add little bits too. When you finish it all could you send it to me as a file and I will print it out for Nina. I think she will enjoy it. Robert 1632 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:10pm Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) > Please clarify again. > (i think this is useful to the others in the list ) > > I said " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in > netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There > are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not > mentioned in any of them." > > and Jim said > > " > The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na. > > So what is the contradiction here? Dear Gayan, The Nettipakarana is in itself a guide to commentators so I suppose that you are right not to consider it one of the direct commentators to the Tipitaka, although I think that people are right in considering it one also since it is the guide to explaining the Tipitaka, complete with quotations and explanations. You are right that it is a learning experience, what do you think, Jim? Amara 1633 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:45pm Subject: Internet Radio Dear all, Starting on Nov. 2, at 2am BKK time, will be having a program of recorded dhamma talks by Khun Sujin in Thai. I hope you might be able to hear some of it, depending of your respective time zones, and that you would please send feedback as usual, Amara 1634 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:11am Subject: welcome! Dear Jim, >From: "Jim Anderson" >Dear list-members, > >Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just >recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to >join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working >directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects >of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related >treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in >the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to. A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found your way here (thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your interest (expertise i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune and we all look forward to hearing plenty from you. If you feel like give a little more detail such as where you're based and how you developed such a strong interest in pali and abhidhamma I know we'd all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any more details about your work with Pali. Sarah 1635 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear mike, I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the monk , who was disguising as a colonel, Deterioration is everywhere, It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - when one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at you in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha have explained why this will happen in the future. I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will be a stage where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be distinguished from laypeople ) :o) , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the merit gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha lead by arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) :o) rgds. "m. nease" on 10/31/2000 10:03:22 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again wrote: > I think the most dangerous > ones are not > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one > takes them > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep > vinaya but who > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most > likely to lead us > astray. At least some of us! Interesting, it's kind of back to the Karaoke. That is, that the really insidious danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad fortune is like a spear in your face. Good fortune is like a spear at the back of your neck." This is similar, I think... Thanks, as always, Robert, Mike 1637 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Gayan, Mike and all, Sorry I pushed the wrong button and fired off my last post early. When we pay respect to a monk with a citta that has confidence in the triple gem it is a very good thing even if the monk is not worthy. If we see him as a representative of the ariyan sangha it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, he can still be arammana pacaya for very respectful kusala citta. Just like when we pay respects to a Buddha image - it is not the image that is important it is always the citta. Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa) sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help anything. As you explained - we have to expect deterioration - the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala - no other way. Robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to > the monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent > that - when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh > ..look at you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how > buddha have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will > be a stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that > the merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the > sangha lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > 1638 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Robert, what actually was is , as soon as a monk was seen the dosa used to arise (not even knowing whether he was good or bad ) thats what dosa does to a mind and a lot of maana too, used to feel like not worshipping them, ( and the associated cheat excuse was - i will worship the worthy monks , when i find worthy ones) ( being selective in worshipping others is a skill , but the mana did cheat appearing like that) :o) rgds Robert Kirkpatrick on 10/31/2000 03:36:02 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Gayan, Mike and all, Sorry I pushed the wrong button and fired off my last post early. When we pay respect to a monk with a citta that has confidence in the triple gem it is a very good thing even if the monk is not worthy. If we see him as a representative of the ariyan sangha it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, he can still be arammana pacaya for very respectful kusala citta. Just like when we pay respects to a Buddha image - it is not the image that is important it is always the citta. Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa) sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help anything. As you explained - we have to expect deterioration - the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala - no other way. Robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to > the monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent > that - when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh > ..look at you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how > buddha have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will > be a stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that > the merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the > sangha lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > > 1639 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Deart Gauan, >From: protectID > >Dear Robert and Amara, > >I think what has happened here is that the content in my introduction lead >to I apologise for the delay in responding, Gayan, but I'm usually running a few steps behind everyone else.... just keep doing your best according to your understanding... there will always be disagreements and skirmishes. Perhaps it's better that they come out into the open and we can all see our own accumulations better at these times! > >If I take just a minute for that 'Void' thing , >what happened was I felt that I should say something about 'myself' because >I >received a 'warm' welcome from jonathan and others. Yes, we like newcomers to this list (probably seems a lifetime ago to you now!) to give some detail about themselves and their understanding of the teaching, so it's easier to know where people are 'coming from' with their views. Thank you. > >In Sri Lanka ,when one is born a buddhist , the 'thingies' in buddhist >'culture' >gets attached to his/her life. >In ceremonies , in school as just another subject,..etc.. I have to admit to some envy for those growing up with the 'thingies' above.... but then we always wish for what we didn't have as a youngster and it really comes down to the understanding..... like you say, one can become complacent and think one is following a good Buddhist lifestyle whereas one may just be following the ceremonies and rituals.... (I still prefer the Buddhist ceremonies tho'.... and right now I have a story in my head while I write of the Vesak days and pirit ceremonies etc in Sri lanka). >Simply because of this he/she finds it to gather the real value of what >buddha >said . >The word 'nibbana' he/she always hears,.. >He/she begins to think that nibbana is a distant thing. >In keeping with religion he/she knows that 'nibbana' is not heaven. >what stays in his/her mind is nibbana is a less vibrant thing. >It is a "void". >this was what happened to me , and most of the sri lankan buddhists.(being >puthujjanas) >But with gathas as in 'udapana sutta' , one can see the real value of >aiming for >nibbana. > In reality, all any of us can do is to have a conceptual understanding, a story about nibbana....we study more and the story becomes more accurate, but it's still conceptual and cannot be experienced by us now. How can we imagine what it is like to have highly developed wisdom and no akusala.....How can we really appreciate the real value of nibbana? >chiram thitthathu saddhammo, pls feed us baby portions of Pali (w/translation!).. s'time in the 70s I won a Commonwealth scholarship to do a higher degree in Pali at Peradiniya U in Kandy... then the Sri lankan Govt changed and it was all cancelled...and life took another turn... unfortunately w/little Pali! Sarah 1641 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:42am Subject: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit >Dear Alex, Dear Sarah, > >I have passed on your condolences to O's regarding her in-laws' death. >The body will be cremated today. > >We had the traditional chanting of the Abhidhammas, and a little less >traditional explanation (by Khun Jack) of some of the Abhidhammas. sounds very useful >Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old >Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin). would you elaborate on this...am I being dense? Is this a book written by A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? If it is the former, has it been translated? Thanks Sarah . 1642 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >The other day, I was taking a sauna (which I often do, >when I have time). I followed a stint in the sauna >with one in a VERY cold shower. 'I have' a lifelong >dislike of cold, and can always expect quite an >onslaught of dosa during this phase of the sauna >experience. The dosa arose, along with plenty of >dukkhavedana, but then I noticed something else--there >were long moments, of varying duration when I KNEW >that dosa was NOT arising--and others when I KNEW that >neither sukkha-nor-dukkha-vedana was arising--i.e., >that 'I' was aware of their non-arising at the moments >of their non-arising. There was nothing else >particularly remarkable about these moments, except >the certainty that these realities were NOT arising >(followed by further moments when they certainly were >arising again). > >Of course this was followed by retrospection again, >though immediately after the fact; still, it seemed >significant because (for once) the retrospection was >(I THINK) of the memory of the arising and subsiding >of realities, rather than the memory of unrealities >(ideas, concepts etc). Or was it just reflection of a >mind-object again? > >Comments, please? Well it sounds to me that you are becoming a person with a name and a daily life - work, showers etc and this shows that your practice is becoming more and more a part of daily life... the shower can be your 'root of the tree' and as suitable place as any to understand a little more about those realities.... and yes, we think we have dosa for a long stretch or'felt ill' all day when in fact there were so many different experiences....but as you found, even dosa has its limits! So many other realities in between! It seems there was some understanding at some level during the shower scene (sounds like the Hitchcock movie) but the retrospection afterwards and memory of arising etc is just thinking... there has to be a lot of very clear understanding of a reality and of namas distinct from rupas before there is any question of the arising as anything other than thinking..... Keep up the daily life examples...... remember I said I give a level I pass when you ask qus here or share in a post, level 2 is when you drag in others and now you've reached level 3 which is when one's job and daily chores are not seen as an obstacle to progress! Congrats! (btw, the latter frivolity is WAY outside the Tipitaka!) Sarah P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the experience of coldness through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 moments of dosa...Khun Sujin used to say to me whe I had a nasty cold, just a moment of unpleasant bodily feeling and then all those many moments of dosa are the real problem... looks like you don't need to be told! 1643 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 8:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Sarah, I am really comfortable here in this egroup ( thanks )! you know, this hyper text transfer protocol is really stateless, they will only reflect what's there in one's own mind. :o) you said "In reality, all any of us can do is to have a conceptual understanding, a story about nibbana....we study more and the story becomes more accurate, but it's still conceptual and cannot be experienced by us now. How can we imagine what it is like to have highly developed wisdom and no akusala.....How can we really appreciate the real value of nibbana?" Of course, Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should aim for the highest goal is a type of panna itself i think. because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) you said "s'time in the 70s I won a Commonwealth scholarship to do a higher degree in Pali at Peradiniya U in Kandy... then the Sri lankan Govt changed and it was all cancelled...and life took another turn... unfortunately w/little Pali!" Thanks for sharing this sarah, :o) rgds 1644 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops --- protectID wrote: > > > Of course, > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > aim for the highest > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > dear gayan, Is it panna or is it tanha? Robert 1645 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Gayan, --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which > happened to the monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to > the extent that - when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes > is ' ooh ..look at you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts > better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I > could see how buddha have > explained why this will happen in the future. I'm glad you brought up this fascinating discourse, as I've been thinking of it too. For anyone unfamiliar with it, you can find a translation at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-77.html > I recollect, it is also said that in the future > there will be a stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow > string ( to be distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' > and that the merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the > representatives of the sangha lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the > case is) Good point. In the discourses and in the vinaya, even the scallywag Udayin was ALWAYS referred to as, 'The VENERABLE Udayin'... Regards back at you, Sir, Mike 1646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Mike Just a point on your ‘working hypothesis’ (I like that term) in your post to Kom below- > Excellent point. Though the Buddha did sometimes > describe a monk (approvingly) as going, after > alms-round, 'to the foot of a tree or to some > secluded > place' and meditating (Sarah, I'm sorry I can't > offer > citations for this vague reference. If you like, > I'll > try to find some...). This certainly evokes the > image > of seated meditation. HOWEVER (and I accept this as > a > working hypothesis, based on advice from some smart > people I've met recently), I THINK the practice > that's > being described in these passages is samatha > bhavana, > NOT satipatthana vipassana bhavana--a distinction I > failed to make for many years! Passages such a these are not necessarily describing only samatha. Satipatthana was of course taught to and practised by monks who had attained high levels of samatha, and they would continue their habitual life of solitude during that development. So you may find that satipatthana is being described. But yes, the point you have taken is that these suttas should not be read as requiring a life of solitude/the development of samatha in order to develop vipassana. > So, unless we think we > can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate > tranquillity (samatha bhavana) or work to eradicate > the > defilements by cultivating sammasati? Actually, we are saved the dilemma of such a choice. Developing the conditions for awareness of the present reality is the best foundation for both samatha and vipassana. And this will stand us in good stead during all those lifetimes in the future when samatha is known and taught but vipassana is not! Jonothan 1647 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Friends, As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or sharper. It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are many moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what the object is, are all thinking (pannati). Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This is because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say what we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going anywhere, not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there is no person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being there. It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object and make it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of voice recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, it is just many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words that we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as self, we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there is never such a person there regardless. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name > such as > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is > seen as > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. > This is > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is > just that > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a > little > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no > different > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or > being > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound > becomes > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible > objects' > are the same. 1648 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Gayank, Tan A. Sujin mentioned to me once what seeing a person in an orche robe can remind us of. Seeing such a person can remind us of the Ariya sagha who have walked the path to Nibbhana. An Ariya sagha has immeasurable merit including: he attains the knowledge that severes him from the Anusaya kilesa bounding him to (less or all) samsara, he is an immeasurable field of merit for what he teaches and for the results that will be attained for dana given to him Should we see a person in an orche robe a person? Or should we see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha? --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the > monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - > when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at > you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha > have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will be a > stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the > merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha > lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > > 1649 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death Dear Sarah, I am only guessing that the book is a collection of her teachings (and some suttas) and was published by the foundation in the normal way. I am not aware of a translated version, although Khun Amara may have one already, or may be pre-disposed in translating it. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > >Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old > >Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin). > > would you elaborate on this...am I being dense? Is this a book > written by > A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? If it is the former, has it > been > translated? Thanks > > Sarah > . > > 1650 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:54am Subject: Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death > I am > not > aware of a translated version, although Khun Amara may have one > already, > or may be pre-disposed in translating it. > > Is this a book > > written by > > A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? Dear Kom and Sarah, It is a small booklet of excerpts of sutta her talks and a discussion, I will find out if it has been translated, if not it can be easily done, except that I am still working on an article at the moment. I have been having a very busy two weeks personal and family affairs mostly, luckily over (I hope!). Lots of realities to study in life! Amara 1651 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 2:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Kom, This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest. :-((( Alex ========== >From: Kom Tukovinit >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Friends, > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or >sharper. >It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are >many >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of > >the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This >is >because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say >what >we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going >anywhere, >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there >is no >person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being >there. >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object >and make >it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you >immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of >voice >recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, >it is just >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words >that >we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as >self, >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there >is >never such a person there regardless. > >kom >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name > > such as > > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is > > seen as > > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not > > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. > > This is > > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is > > just that > > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a > > little > > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no > > different > > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or > > being > > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound > > becomes > > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible > > objects' > > are the same. > > 1652 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Robert, Mike, and all, Thank you for reminding me that what's happening is much more subtle and complicated than the appearance. Anumodana, Alex ======================= >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:03:22 -0800 (PST) > > > wrote: > > > I think the most dangerous > > ones are not > > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one > > takes them > > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep > > vinaya but who > > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most > > likely to lead us > > astray. > >At least some of us! Interesting, it's kind of back >to the Karaoke. That is, that the really insidious >danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese >expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad >fortune is like a spear in your face. Good fortune is >like a spear at the back of your neck." This is >similar, I think... > >Thanks, as always, Robert, > >Mike > 1653 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 7:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay Jonathan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Passages such a these are not necessarily describing > only samatha. Satipatthana was of course taught to > and practised by monks who had attained high levels > of > samatha, and they would continue their habitual life > of solitude during that development. So you may > find > that satipatthana is being described. I stand corrected--oversimplifying again, I'm afraid... > But yes, the > point you have taken is that these suttas should not > be read as requiring a life of solitude/the > development of samatha in order to develop > vipassana. Well, actually, I was thinking more of seated, rather yogic-style meditation in general--whether alone or in groups. Your point regarding these passages sometimes referring to vipassana bhavana, though, give me pause to reconsider this view... > > So, unless we think we > > can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate > > tranquillity (samatha bhavana) or work to > eradicate > > the > > defilements by cultivating sammasati? > > Actually, we are saved the dilemma of such a choice. > > Developing the conditions for awareness of the > present > reality is the best foundation for both samatha and > vipassana. And this will stand us in good stead > during all those lifetimes in the future when > samatha > is known and taught but vipassana is not! Thanks, Jon, for the continued corrections--please do keep them coming... Mike 1654 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 8:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Amara and others, >Welcome to the list, I guess I just missed your posting last night, >signing off just before! I think we are rather the lucky ones to >have someone with such a facility to check things for us in the >future! Thank-you all for your warm welcomes. Sorry for not responding so promptly. I should say that I won't be able to keep up with the fast pace of this list due to the limited time I seem to have. I will try to respond to Sarah's welcome message soon. I look forward to checking things out for you all. >I for one am very grateful that you did, and everyone else would be >interested to know as well, I am sure. I am printing out your list >for them now. I'm glad I posted this list. On the list, I noticed an error I made in no. 32 & 36: "a~ncetiiti" should read "va~ncetiiti". Sorry for accidentally deleting the "v". >This is the first time I have heard >about them >> and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the >commentary on >> the Nettippakara.na. > >So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references >given: > >'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy: > >written in > >1947 > >In the preface the venerable says.. > >" There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana >atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas >for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of >them." ' >**** > > >It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have >them but the tika DO? Gayan explained it correctly. The list of 38 comes from the Nettippakarana-atthakatha (Nett-a). I checked out the two tikas and did not find any such list in them. The tikas have very little to add in the way of comments. Also, a quick search on the CSCD disk suggests that the list is found only in this one commentary (Nett-a). Not having studied the Netti in much detail, I am unclear as to why the commentator presented the list of 38. >Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, >and which one is the one containing the list? The CSCD disk includes the following two tikas: Nettippakara.na-.tiikaa by Dhammapaala (6th cent.?) Nettivibhaavinii by Saddhammapaala (15th cent.) Dhammapaala also wrote the Nettippakaara.na-a.t.thakathaa. There is one other tika I know of: Netti(nava)mahaa.tiikaa by ~Naa.naabhiva.msa (18th-19th cent.) In a subsequent post to Gayan you wrote: << Dear Gayan, The Nettipakarana is in itself a guide to commentators so I suppose that you are right not to consider it one of the direct commentators to the Tipitaka, although I think that people are right in considering it one also since it is the guide to explaining the Tipitaka, complete with quotations and explanations. You are right that it is a learning experience, what do you think, Jim? Amara >> I'll pass up on telling you what I think. With best wishes, Jim A. 1655 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 9:57am Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas) Dear Jim, Thank you for the thorough and considerate response. Very glad you joined indeed! Amara Dear all, I checked in early (for me!) today but will be away from the list all day, will look in this evening. Amara 1656 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Khun Kom, Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the mind door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color (RUPA) and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at every moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Friends, | | As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or | sharper. | It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are | many | moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of | | the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and | remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what | | the object is, are all thinking (pannati). | | Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This | is | because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say | what | we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as | we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going | anywhere, | not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there | is no | person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being | there. | It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object | and make | it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. | | Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you | immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of | voice | recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, | it is just | many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding | without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words | that | we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as | self, | we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there | is | never such a person there regardless. | | kom | --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: | > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name | > such as | > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is | > seen as | > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not | > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. | > This is | > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is | > just that | > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a | > little | > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no | > different | > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or | > being | > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound | > becomes | > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible | > objects' | > are the same. | | 1657 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the Path. One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these goings on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha meant them to be studied. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > Dear friends, > > I think that in Thailand or anywhere else, there are 2 types of monks: > the ones who are on the Path, and the ones who *pretend* to be monks for > whatever reasons. It's the 2nd type is the ones who cause the > misunderstanding in the public. > > I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they have ID > to prove that they are really monks. From time to time, a police may check > any monk for his ID. Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we still > can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look around > when walking. > > Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period. In fact, my > monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. Young > ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect them to be > laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for > marriage. > > Is it true, my dear Thai friends? > > Alex Tran > > > 1658 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes, so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > Dear Khun Kom, > Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the mind > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color (RUPA) > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at every > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > > | Dear Friends, > | > | As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or > | sharper. > | It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are > | many > | moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of > | > | the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and > | remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what > | > | the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > | > | Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This > | is > | because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say > | what > | we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as > | we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going > | anywhere, > | not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there > | is no > | person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being > | there. > | It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object > | and make > | it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. > | > | Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you > | immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of > | voice > | recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, > | it is just > | many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding > | without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words > | that > | we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as > | self, > | we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there > | is > | never such a person there regardless. > | > | kom > | --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > | > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name > | > such as > | > sound, taste, visible object. Visible object is just that which is > | > seen as > | > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not > | > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking. > | > This is > | > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is > | > just that > | > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a > | > little > | > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no > | > different > | > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or > | > being > | > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound > | > becomes > | > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible > | > objects' > | > are the same. > | > 1659 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear M.Betty, No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the mind door, the 3D occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it is pannati already. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes, | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time. | | With metta, | Betty | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| | | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: shinlin | | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | | | > Dear Khun Kom, | > Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the | mind | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color | (RUPA) | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process | > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at | every | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. | > Shin | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Kom Tukovinit | > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | > | > | | 1660 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear M.Betty, When you say "eye", it is eye sensitive material (cakkhu dhatu) or eye consciousness ( cakkhu vinnana ) ?? There is a difference between the two. The cakkhu vinnana only recognizes colour. This is what I meant. The 3D or depth is in the mind or thinking process. I used to ask the same question at the Thai Dhamma talk, and it was confirmed by Archan. BUT we can check it out again. regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes, | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time. | | With metta, | Betty | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| | | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: shinlin | | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | | | > Dear Khun Kom, | > Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the | mind | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color | (RUPA) | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process | > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of not self at | every | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana. Check it out. | > Shin | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Kom Tukovinit | > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > 1661 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear robert, it is desire ! isnt it, This comes to mind, (in tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this path is to destroy desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the path?' then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he has desire, eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go to that place still be existing?' the answer was 'no' ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the desire to eradicate desire will cease to exist' I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut rgds. Robert Kirkpatrick on 10/31/2000 07:05:33 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops --- protectID wrote: > > > Of course, > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > aim for the highest > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > dear gayan, Is it panna or is it tanha? Robert 1662 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear kom, you asked, "Should we see a person in an orche robe a person? Or should we see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha?" we Should see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha. studying about the lifestyles of maha theras ie. sariputta,moggallana,kassapa also helped me.Then when I see a person in robe , what comes to mind is the compassionate lifestyles of those great monks. :o) rgds. Kom Tukovinit on 10/31/2000 09:58:27 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Gayank, Tan A. Sujin mentioned to me once what seeing a person in an orche robe can remind us of. Seeing such a person can remind us of the Ariya sagha who have walked the path to Nibbhana. An Ariya sagha has immeasurable merit including: he attains the knowledge that severes him from the Anusaya kilesa bounding him to (less or all) samsara, he is an immeasurable field of merit for what he teaches and for the results that will be attained for dana given to him Should we see a person in an orche robe a person? Or should we see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha? --- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the > monk , > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - > when > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at > you > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha > have > explained why this will happen in the future. > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will be a > stage > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > distinguished > from laypeople ) :o) > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the > merit > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha > lead by > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > :o) > > > rgds. > > 1663 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:22pm Subject: Ch V 11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo vangceti In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the holylife can be lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, senasana, gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and responsibility. Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is only done with the 'allowed' and 'recommended'. But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only concentrate on what is allowed and not allowed. And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle for it. His priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make full use of the 'allowances'. Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill of anunnatha patisevana, but its none other than the disguised kamasukhallikanuyoga. In the lay life, the person who is cheated by kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to think.."in many occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to earn righteously, live comfortably, have and look after children........." and he will dive into sensuality. He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the possibility of ) attaining the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life. 12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha vangceti. It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing of the resources' , The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it with the brethen who are less-successful. Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela ( who lacks moral restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful unmeritorious deeds ) people. Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to others, liking to consume everything by oneself. This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no business with those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva parisuddhi will be in danger" So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the play. contd. 1664 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan, I think it is a little more complicated than it appears from the sutta where Ananda said that you use desire to get to the end of desire. Tanha can never understand dhammas as they are. Thus you could have oddles of desire to understand but this is simply a hindrance. Chanda - wish to do - can arise with tanha or panna. It is similar in some ways to tanha (can be mistaken for tanha) but when it arises with panna is different. Tanha can be pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna- for example you have tanha for nibanna and so start studying dhamma. But if (and this so easily happens) one continues to study with tanha it will be an impassable barrier that stops panna. Tanha for nibbana is also upanissaya paccaya for wrong practice when someone wants to attain quickly so they look for shortcuts and does special practices. It is only this moment that can be understood and only panna that can lead to nibbana. Only by accumulating panna at this moment will more panna arise in the future. If true panna is accumulated then one day the moments will be seen as they are and nibbana will be experienced. No one could stop it occuring. Tanha is simply samudaya sacca - the cause of dukkha and prolonger of samsara vata. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > it is desire ! isnt it, > > This comes to mind, > (in tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this > path is to destroy > desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the > path?' > then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he > has desire, > eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go > to that place still > be existing?' > the answer was 'no' > ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the > desire to > eradicate desire will cease to exist' > > I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut > > rgds. > > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick on > 10/31/2000 07:05:33 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops > > > > > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > Of course, > > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > > aim for the highest > > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > > > dear gayan, > Is it panna or is it tanha? > Robert > > > > 1665 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Sarah, Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya. pakatúpanissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya, the commentary to the “Paěěhĺna” (the Pańcappakaraůatthakathĺ) explains the term “pakata” in pakatúpanissaya. Pakata means done properly, done thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were “done thoroughly”, often performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual. In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they cause to arise. I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying about A. Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would classify my earlier comments as being highly suspicious. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Kom, > > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > >Dear Sarah, > > > >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really > >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and > Buddha's > >panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex > all > >the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and > my > >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the > >followings: > > > >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta: > > > >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways: > >sahajata (conascence condition) > >sampayutta (association) > >annamanna (mutuality) > >nisaya (support) > >indariya (chief in its functions?) > >atti (still there?) > >avicata (not gone yet?) > >possibly vipaka (results) > > > >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways: > >sahajata (conascence condition) > >sampayutta (association) > >annamanna (mutuality) > >nisaya (support) > >ahara (brings forth results?) > >atti (still there?) > >avicata (not gone yet?) > >possibly vipaka (results) > > > >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa > >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object) > >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara) > >possibly asevana (repeating in javana) > >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise) > >possibly aramana (as sense object) > >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?) > >possibly natti (not there?) > >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?) > > > > o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on > paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the > swimmingpool > with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful, > but > still doesn't give me all the answers... > > I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level > either > agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!). > > now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as > pacaya for > vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds > of > nissaya, i.e. > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0 > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) > > 1. can only be heartbase > 2. arising together and dependent on > 3. conditioning statew must be a material base > 4. a mix up > > pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied > v.carefully. > > >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana > >arising after the phassa in the following ways: > >pacchajat (postnascence), > >sampayitta (association) > > > >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that > >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be > >sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate? > > > You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another. > This > is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting > me to > spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an > analogy > used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they > find and > don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to > crave for > the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving > > supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do > mental > gymnastics to kind of get it!) > > >Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn > more > >about pacaya. > > > >kom > > Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual > study > at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it > goes to > the heart of the anattaness of realities. > > One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about > the > particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered > the > most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too. > > Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in > posts to > read up! > > Sarah > > 1666 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is only at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear M.Betty, > No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the > mind door, the 3D > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it > is pannati > already. > with metta, > Shin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > > | Dear Shin, > | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why > we have 2 > eyes, > | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, > not as a flat > | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her > next time. > | > | With metta, > | Betty > | __________________________ > | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > | Bangkok 10900, Thailand > | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > | protectID> | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: shinlin > | > | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM > | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > | > | > | > Dear Khun Kom, > | > Visible object is just color during the eye process of > thought, 3D > or > | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of > thought in the > | mind > | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which > is already > | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can > separate the color > | (RUPA) > | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. > UNDERSTANDING the > process > | > thought (Vitthi Citta), will increase of understanding of > not self at > | every > | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the > Manodvaravajjana. Check it > out. > | > Shin > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: Kom Tukovinit > | > > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM > | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > | > > | > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1667 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying > about A. > Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would > classify my > earlier comments as being highly suspicious. > > Dear Kom, Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include the dhammas that lead s out of samasara -amoha(panna) and alobha. Robert 1668 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear robert, yes it is quite clear. what is the most suitable word for chanda in english? ( desire? ) the best word for tanha is craving , is it? yes , the skill must be to understand the diffrences between.... ie, kama tanha, kamacchanda? yes ( again ) , when investigating words like dhamma-rati one has to be very cautious (isnt it) for in dhammapada it says ' sabba rati dhamma rati jinathi' ( rati for dhamma is the best rati ) and rati is a hindrance.... i would like to know the most suited english word for rati as well. rgds. gayan Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/01/2000 01:42:19 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan, I think it is a little more complicated than it appears from the sutta where Ananda said that you use desire to get to the end of desire. Tanha can never understand dhammas as they are. Thus you could have oddles of desire to understand but this is simply a hindrance. Chanda - wish to do - can arise with tanha or panna. It is similar in some ways to tanha (can be mistaken for tanha) but when it arises with panna is different. Tanha can be pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna- for example you have tanha for nibanna and so start studying dhamma. But if (and this so easily happens) one continues to study with tanha it will be an impassable barrier that stops panna. Tanha for nibbana is also upanissaya paccaya for wrong practice when someone wants to attain quickly so they look for shortcuts and does special practices. It is only this moment that can be understood and only panna that can lead to nibbana. Only by accumulating panna at this moment will more panna arise in the future. If true panna is accumulated then one day the moments will be seen as they are and nibbana will be experienced. No one could stop it occuring. Tanha is simply samudaya sacca - the cause of dukkha and prolonger of samsara vata. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > it is desire ! isnt it, > > This comes to mind, > (in tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this > path is to destroy > desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the > path?' > then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he > has desire, > eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go > to that place still > be existing?' > the answer was 'no' > ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the > desire to > eradicate desire will cease to exist' > > I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut > > rgds. > > 1669 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch V Dear gayan, very helpful once again! I am still finding this most useful. I have had several discussions over the years with Nina where we commented how nice it would be to have the atthakattha to the Netti translated. This is based on only one section of it - there must be a lot of gold in there we don't know about yet. And what do the Tika have I wonder? Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > 11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo > vangceti > > In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the > holylife can be > lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, > senasana, > gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and > responsibility. > Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is > only done with the > 'allowed' and 'recommended'. > But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only > concentrate on what is > allowed and not allowed. > And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle > for it. His > priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make > full use of the > 'allowances'. > Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill > of anunnatha > patisevana, but its none other than the disguised > kamasukhallikanuyoga. > > In the lay life, the person who is cheated by > kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not > recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to > think.."in many > occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to > earn righteously, > live comfortably, have and look after children........." and > he will dive into > sensuality. > He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the > possibility of ) attaining > the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life. > > > 12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha > vangceti. > > It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing > of the resources' > , > The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it > with the brethen > who are less-successful. > > Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela > ( who lacks moral > restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful > unmeritorious deeds ) > people. > Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to > others, liking to > consume everything by oneself. > This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no > business with > those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva > parisuddhi will be > in danger" > So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the > play. > > contd. > > > 1670 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 6:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a sotapanna ??? What about the low level of satipanna before being Ariya people ? I heard from the Thai dhamma discussion saying that there is low level of satipanna but it is not stable. Sometimes alobha likes that low level of satipanna which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. Then it would be a little hard to come back on the right track. But I think the low level satipanna is visesa lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and it increases faith in the teaching as it happens. Pls correct me if I have mistaken anything. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our | understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to | what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible | object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is only | at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference | between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there | must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the | specific charcteristics) of dhammas. | Robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear M.Betty, | > No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the | > mind door, the 3D | > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it | > is pannati | > already. | > with metta, | > Shin | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | > | > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | > | Dear Shin, | > | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why | > we have 2 | > eyes, | > | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, | > not as a flat | > | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her | > next time. | > | | > | With metta, | > | Betty | > | __________________________ | > | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | > | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | > | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | > | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | > | protectID| > | 1671 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear shin, --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a > sotapanna ??? No, namarupapariccheda- nana (distinguishing of nama and rupa) is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as ditthi visuddhhi(purification of view)and is the most important stage before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the first stage of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained it when they concentrate and know, for example, that first there is the intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is actually much more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained how at that moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the rapidity of chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the difference between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only occur when wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, considering ( of the types done with mahakusala citta associated with panna (wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly noted, having studied (with panna) again and again the visesa lakkhana of different dhammas. Sometimes alobha likes that low level of > satipanna > which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not alobha. This actually occurs after namarupapariccheda- nana and it shows just how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very purified and it is clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still tanha creeps in and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick us before that stage? But I think the low level > satipanna is visesa > lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and > it increases > faith in the teaching as it happens. Any true understanding increases faith in the teaching Robert > ----- 1672 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:20pm Subject: Re: time & path Joe It was great to hear from a fellow Dhamma student from the 'old days' in Bangkok. It took me some time to put a face to the facts you have given, but I think I have now done so. I will know for sure when we meet in Bangkok next month (hopefully)! > for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I > attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this > group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout > that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon > Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall > correctly) lived. Yes, that would be me, but I'm Australian thanks mate. And my short period as a novice had been some years before. But like you, I had a lot of contact with the foreign monks at that time. > anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told > conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of > my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I > think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further > away). We are very happy to have someone with this particular pecadillo on the list. Look forward to seeing more of your posts in fu 1673 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:24pm Subject: Re: colour/sound > The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a sotapanna ??? > What about the low level of satipanna before being Ariya people ? I heard > from the Thai dhamma discussion saying that there is low level of satipanna > but it is not stable. Dear Shin, Perhaps you will remember this passage from the 'Summary' (also in the advanced section of , Part VIII Vipassana-Bhavana): Before the magga-vithi-citta could arise, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to be mindful, study and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of each rebirth until the panna that takes notes and knows the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would increase. When the panna is full, steadfast to a certain level, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta that is a vipassana-nana would arise to clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma respective the level of vipassana-nana through the mano-dvara, namely: Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely separate, arammana by arammana. The world appears as a reality void of the self. At that moment there is no atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world. Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the specific reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter. Because without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. Paccayapariggaha-nana: the second vipassana-nana After the vipassana-nana has fallen away, the world would appear assembled as before. Those who develop sati-patthana would know exactly the differences between the instant when the vipassana-nana arises and when not. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, ignorance and uncertainty about other nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would arise again because they have not been absolutely eradicated. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is a nata-parinna, the nana that knows only the characteristics of the reality that appears uniquely at the moment of vipassana-nana. At the instant of vipassana-nana there is no ignorance and uncertainty about the characteristics of realities appearing. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is the first step of vipassana-nana leading to the development of the next levels of increasingly clear realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When sati-patthana has continued further to be mindful, examine and take notes of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing, it would realize that each instant that arammana appears, the consciousness would arise according to paccaya, which are the arammana. If the distinct arammana does not appear, the nama-dhamma that knows that arammana cannot arise. The appearance of each arammana would allow panna to see the characteristics of being paccaya of the appearing dhamma. The characteristics of anatta of all dhamma could then be known and gradually the focus on, and the self-involved attention to the arammana would be attenuated. The instant the eightfold magga, which is a sankhara-khandha, has developed to the fullest, it would cause the second vipassana-nana, the paccayapariggaha-nana, to arise and realize the arising of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma according to paccaya at the instant that the specific realities arise, for example, the realization of the arising of the hearing consciousness or of sound, that of the arising of sukha-vedana or dukkha- vedana or thinking consciousness, which would appear in their separateness arammana by arammana in characteristics void of the self etc. The vipassana-nana fully realizes the characteristics of realities that arise and appear normally but the realization is through the mano-dvara. It severs the characteristics of each arammana in manner completely voiding all other things as well as the self. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, the world would appear assembled as before. Sammasana-nana: the third vipassana-nana The sammasana-nana is the panna that fully realizes the rapid arising and falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When it is not vipassana-nana, even though there is knowledge through reasoning that nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma arise and fall away very rapidly, the arising and falling away would not be apparent. Even in the first and second vipassana-nana, the realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is only that of each nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma one at a time. The first, second and third vipassana-nana are taruna-vipassana, the vipassana of the beginning level, therefore, they are still weak, not balava-vipassana or vipassana-nana that is strong, as are the higher levels of vipassana-nana. Taruna-vipassana still reflects upon nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized if in an aspect void of the world that used to appear assembled. Since there is still thinking about nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized, they are called cinta-nana, which makes people mistake the 3 vipassana-nana for the instants of mindfulness, noting and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and more clearly understanding them. But as long as vipassana-nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana-nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would appear as arammana. Some might understand that the moment of mindfulness, examination of and noting the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and thinking, is already the clear knowledge of nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. This is because they do not know yet that vipassana-nana must arise and appear as being anatta like all other nama-dhamma, and that it is the realization of the sequential characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara with the other dvara apparently excluded by the mano-dvara. Contrarily, when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear because it would be hidden by the arammana of the panca-dvara-vithi-citta. Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana. But until the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise. And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga (ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto completion as the specific vipassana-nana. Thus the specific vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions. Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are mindful, study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and more conscientiously. Some think that when sammasana-nana arises they would see nama-dhamma arising and falling away as little spheres, one after another. Nama-dhamma is not rupa-dhamma. Since they have no knowledge of the characteristics of nama-dhamma, not having developed sati-patthana to be mindful of the characteristics of specific kinds of nama-dhamma, which is the element of consciousness, they think that nama-dhamma that arises and fall away has the characteristics of a certain rupa. Those who are impatient to have vipassana-nana arise immediately would try to do other things rather than be mindful, examine and take note of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise and appear according to the causes and conditions as they truly are. But it is impossible to rush panna at all. The only hetu to develop panna to gradually grow is sati-patthana normally, in ordinary everyday life. If one does anything else, it is certain that the wrong result will issue from the wrong causes. Wrong practice comes from desiring quick results because there is no understanding of the correct way to practice. Lobha-mula-citta with wrong view would be miccha-magga that leads to miccha-vimutti or the wrong freedom because it would not be the right freedom from kilesa but which is mistaken as such. ***** A little further on the 10 vipassanupa kilesa are also described and then the level of vipassana nana that eradicates them, which is the: 6) Patipada-nana-dassana-visuddhi: having transcended vipassanupa-kilesa, panna that has developed from the development of sati-patthana would also be patipada-nana-dassana-visuddhi from the udayabbaya-nana that is free from vipassanupa-kilesa to the three anuloma-nana, namely parikamma, upacara and anuloma. ***** The book is so rich it is quite good to reread sometimes, Amara 1674 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 1:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah and all, >A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found your way here >(thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your interest (expertise >i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune and we all >look forward to hearing plenty from you. > >If you feel like give a little more detail such as where you're based and >how you developed such a strong interest in pali and abhidhamma I know we'd >all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any more details >about your work with Pali. > >Sarah Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's a bit more on where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a wooded lot about 25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times a year to stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk for about two weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a hermit. For about a 20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a few Buddhist teachers and groups at various locations. I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting I attended in Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a monk on tape. In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a member of the Pali Text Society and started buying books directly from them for my collection of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had most of the available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian edition of the Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on my own. I did seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the University of Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that never came about, although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D student of his for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from Yangon. When I heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized (he still had the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him to teach me Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was getting myself into! He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available to teach me for about another five years when he expected to be finished his studies. As it turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge responsibility of bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs here. I felt it was just too much for me to handle financially and psychologically. After it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 where I have continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation until this day. Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. I'm sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a support for studying the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the discussions. I will make every effort to share with you whatever I have learned that I think might be helpful. With best wishes, Jim A. 1675 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 9:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Betty, Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the Path. They create terrible kamma for themselves. However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand for the Ariya Disciples. My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure that they are not worthy? A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his supporters see nothing wrong with it. Anumodana, Alex ================== >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:41:26 +0700 > >Dear Alex, >Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken >the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the >Path. >One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the >Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to >bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is >attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them >don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these >goings >on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be >worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, >all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are >at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give >thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha >meant them to be studied. > >with metta, >Betty >__________________________ >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road >Bangkok 10900, Thailand >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 >protectID> > > > > 1676 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 7:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! dear group, I must add to Jim's introduction that I been reading his comments on other web sites for over several months and admired his mature and modest approach (and expertise) to the various topics. When recently he answered a query about the Patthana and mentioned his interest in Abhidhamma it was clear how helpful he could be to our discussions: hence my invite. I am very grateful that you accepted Jim. We understand that you won't have time to get involved in all the topics we discuss here but whatever assistance you give will be much valued. thanks robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > >A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found > your way here > >(thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your > interest (expertise > >i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune > and we all > >look forward to hearing plenty from you. > > > >If you feel like give a little more detail such as where > you're based and > >how you developed such a strong interest in pali and > abhidhamma I know we'd > >all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any > more details > >about your work with Pali. > > > >Sarah > > Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's > a bit more on > where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a > wooded lot about > 25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times > a year to > stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk > for about two > weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a > hermit. For about a > 20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a > few Buddhist > teachers and groups at various locations. > > I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting > I attended in > Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a > monk on tape. > In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's > Introduction to Pali > and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a > member of the Pali > Text Society and started buying books directly from them for > my collection > of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had > most of the > available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian > edition of the > Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on > my own. I did > seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the > University of > Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that > never came about, > although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D > student of his > for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from > Yangon. When I > heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized > (he still had > the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him > to teach me > Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was > getting myself into! > He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available > to teach me for > about another five years when he expected to be finished his > studies. As it > turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge > responsibility of > bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs > here. I felt it > was just too much for me to handle financially and > psychologically. After > it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 > where I have > continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation > until this > day. > > Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an > expert in Pali. > I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the > language. It > still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been > interested in > Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. > I have done > some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently > studying the 24 > paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five > books too. I'm > sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a > support for studying > the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the > discussions. I > will make every effort to share with you whatever I have > learned that I > think might be helpful. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > > > 1677 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Amara, Thanks for your response! I'm still puzzling about it all... --- amara chay wrote: > Vicikiccha can only be eradicated by > panna of the > sotapanna level, since the succession of citta is so > formidable fast, > in fact so fast it is a wonder that awareness can > arise at all! Yes, well--I'm sure nothing has been eradicated, just supplanted, I guess, for a few moments. But I'm still wondering if what seemed like a few odd moments of direct awareness simply of the absence of dosa and/or sukkhavedana really has any particular significance, or if I'm giving the recollection of those moments more attention than it deserves... > But > with the proper conditions, anything can happen Right! Well, I'll carry on, I guess... Anumodana back at you, Ma'am! Mike 1678 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch - IV --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: --- protectID wrote: > the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)> care, responsibility for others. One who has the > desire to develop kusalas, can mistake this akusala > as the former kusala, and can try to develop the > disguised akusala. > I certainly know this one! I was very irresonsible > (still am) > family wise but could always justify it to myself > as > "detachment". But it is simply selfishness. Ditto, unmasked again! 'I' seem to have been carefully cultivating nearly ALL these particular delusions for aeons... Glad to find 'myself' in such excellent company... Thanks to you both, Mike 1679 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have > patigha (dosa) > sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. > The other > thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing > Dhamma that > was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can > never help > anything. So, when that dosa arises, if we know (from experience) that we can supplant it (simile of the peg), should we do so? Do we have the option? Or will that supplanting either take place or not take place, uncontrollably, according to conditions? > As you explained - we have to expect > deterioration - > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to > understand > the situation with patience. We only help when there > is kusala - > no other way. And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause the arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, the only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna now, in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala in the future? If so, is the effort (based on the desire (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly confused...? Thanks in advance... Mike 1680 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > --- > . However, as we all realise, dosa can > > never help > > anything. > > So, when that dosa arises, if we know (from > experience) that we can supplant it (simile of the > peg), should we do so? Do we have the option? Or > will that supplanting either take place or not take > place, uncontrollably, according to conditions? If dosa arises then that is the reality at that moment- it can be understood. Different ways and levels of understanding it. It might be known as simply a dhamma, a nama; As simply a dhatu, an element; Or as part of sankhara khanda; Or perhaps no conceptualising at all but simply knowing it as it is. But understanding isn't always of the satipatthana type. Even basic understanding that dosa is always akusala and can only give unpleasant results is very helpful. The more we see this the more there is the turning away from dosa. By this I don't mean telling ourself "dosa is bad, I shouldn't have it". That won't work for long. What helps is knowing the details of kamma and vipaka - then one starts to really have confidence that bad causes must lead to bad results. Don't we so often feel well-justified in our anger? "Those monks are destroying the sasana, they are terrible...." It feels right that we should be angry - It is all delusion. If we know the moment we will see that. The conditions for understanding of whatever level is simply hearing more, considering more and studying the present moment. It works its way gradually. We will still get angry again and again but, if we have heard much, if the conditions have been fulfilled, we will learn a little from even the akusala. It is not us who is angry- it is simply anger arising. Dosa is the rough dhamma, the ugly cetasika, but it is not ours, it is alien. And when we don't learn anything that is dhamma too - it shows us that we haven't really listened enough. That we have only been paying lip-service to Dhamma. It lets us know that confidence in kamma and vipaka is low. It is telling us - "you are heedless, life is short, do not be negligent." > > As you explained - we have to expect > > deterioration - > > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to > > understand > > the situation with patience. We only help when there > > is kusala - > > no other way. > > And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause the > arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, the > only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna now, > in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala in > the future? If so, is the effort (based on the desire > (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) > akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly > confused...? > Hopelessly confused is all dhamma too. It is anatta. Trying too much will surely be done with tanha - it will just block understanding. Robert 1681 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear, Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Well it sounds to me that you are becoming a person ...yes, 'I' never gets tired of becoming, does I--or, do it--or something...! > with a name and a daily > life - work, showers etc and this shows that your > practice is becoming more > and more a part of daily life... the shower can be > your 'root of the tree' ...of course! > and as suitable place as any to understand a little > more about those > realities...and yes, we think we have dosa for a > long stretch or 'felt ill' > all day when in fact there were so many different > experiences....but as you > found, even dosa has its limits! So many other > realities in between! ...yes, I've known that for a long time, in a crude sort of way... > It seems there was some understanding at some level > during the shower scene > (sounds like the Hitchcock movie) but the > retrospection afterwards and > memory of arising etc is just thinking...there has > to be a lot of very > clear understanding of a reality and of namas > distinct from rupas before > there is any question of the arising as anything > other than thinking..... ...right... > Keep up the daily life examples...remember I > said I give a level I > pass when you ask qus here or share in a post, level > 2 is when you drag in > others and now you've reached level 3 which is when > one's job and daily > chores are not seen as an obstacle to progress! ...well, I'm still quite grateful for a pass to the kids' table (or the doggie-door, for that matter)--since you mention it, though, I've never experienced even what I used to think were 'insights' during 'formal meditation'--anything that's EVER 'clicked' 'for me' has done so in the course of 'everyday life'... > (btw, the latter > frivolity is WAY outside the Tipitaka!) ...well, after all, we kids do need sugar coating on our pills (I feel sure Khun Amara will be patient with us...?) > P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the > experience of coldness > through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 > moments of dosa... This is very interesting! Sorry if this question is inane, but any idea how long it takes for these 17 moments to arise and subside? > Khun > Sujin used to say to me when I had a nasty cold, just > a moment of unpleasant > bodily feeling and then all those many moments of > dosa are the real > problem...looks like you don't need to be told! ...no, the difference between the dukkhavedana and the dosa are (grossly and conceptually) clear--in retrospect, of course--but I think it'll be a long time before I'll no longer benefit from being reminded... Many thanks, as always, Sarah, Mike 1682 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again > So, when that dosa arises, if we know (from > experience) that we can supplant it (simile of the > peg), should we do so? Do we have the option? Or > will that supplanting either take place or not take > place, uncontrollably, according to conditions? Dear Mike, Usually the citta is so fast that when there are conditions, they arise immediately, there is no stopping them in time or supplanting them with anything else. But right understanding is also a cetasika that accompanies the citta and arises as quickly- when there are conditions for it to also. Right understanding can be of several levels, as Robert explained so well, the intellectual level is very important especially as conditions for the experiencing level. But at the experiencing level it needs not be followed by long trains of analysis. For example on the theoretic level visible objects arise and fall away, what is seen through the eyes are light and color, shapes and forms are later recognized, seeing occurs when the inner and outer ayatanas come into contact, etc. But what we are seeing now does not need to be described, its characteristics as they appear to right understanding that is studying it is accumulated for further right understanding to occur and accumulate in continuation, and as long as there is the study of realities that appear as distinct from those through other dvara and from one reality to the other even through the same dvara (seeing is different from light and color), knowledge of these characteristics will also grow, gradually, little by little. When the knowledge is strong enough and the conditions are right, it can eradicate dosa completely (at the anagami level) but in the meantime when the conditions are right, again, the growing knowledge that the dosa is arising, as Alex once said, I think, can also condition less dosa to arise. While before one might be tempted to show your dosa and wish the other person bad things, one might see the harm dosa is doing to oneself and bringing no good to anyone else. Or one might, at the experiencing level, experience it as such, an uncomfortable and harmful state of the citta that has arisen and fallen away, impermanent like anything else, and different from other moments of citta such as lobha or seeing or thinking. This realization automatically, without any thinking about it all day, adds to your knowledge of things as they really are, since that is the duty of right understanding: to accumulate more right understanding as they arise. > > As you explained - we have to expect > > deterioration - > > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to > > understand > > the situation with patience. We only help when there > > is kusala - > > no other way. > > And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause the > arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, the > only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna now, > in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala in > the future? If so, is the effort (based on the desire > (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) > akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly > confused...? As you see it is a very complex matter, but the true nature of realities as they arise and are experienced with right understanding will help clarify the theories as well. In other words all dhamma studies help and support and clarify one another, so long as one studies the Buddha's words as much as one can without prejudice or preconception, I think. Amara 1683 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin and Robert, Seems to me there's a LOT of value for reassessing old ditthi in this short exchange--thanks! --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear shin, > > --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > >The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after > > being a > > sotapanna ??? > > No, namarupapariccheda-nana (distinguishing of nama > and rupa) > is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as > ditthi > visuddhhi (purification of view) and is the most > important stage > before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the > first stage > of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained > it when > they concentrate and know, for example, that first > there is the > intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is > actually much > more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained > how at that > moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the > rapidity of > chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the > difference > between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only > occur when > wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, > considering (of > the types done with mahakusala citta associated with > panna > (wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly > noted, having > studied (with panna) again and again the visesa > lakkhana of > different dhammas. > > > Sometimes alobha likes that low level of > > satipanna > > which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. > > I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not > alobha. This > actually occurs after namarupapariccheda-nana and > it shows just > how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very > purified and it is > clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still > tanha creeps in > and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick > us before > that stage? > > > But I think the low level > > satipanna is visesa > > lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas > > appears and > > it increases > > faith in the teaching as it happens. > > Any true understanding increases faith in the > teaching > Robert 1684 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > If dosa arises then that is the reality at that > moment- it can > be understood. Different ways and levels of > understanding it. It > might be known as simply a dhamma, a nama; As simply > a dhatu, an > element; Or as part of sankhara khanda; Or perhaps > no > conceptualising at all but simply knowing it as it > is. > But understanding isn't always of the satipatthana > type. Even > basic understanding that dosa is always akusala and > can only > give unpleasant results is very helpful. The more we > see this > the more there is the turning away from dosa. ...right... > By > this I don't > mean telling ourself "dosa is bad, I shouldn't have > it". That > won't work for long. ...no... > What helps is knowing the > details of kamma > and vipaka - then one starts to really have > confidence that bad > causes must lead to bad results. ...definitely... > Don't we so often feel well-justified in our anger? Always! While it lasts... > "Those monks > are destroying the sasana, they are terrible..." It > feels right > that we should be angry - It is all delusion. If we > know the > moment we will see that. I don't know that I've ever known the moment, but it's certainly clear in retrospect. But is this kind of retrospection of some value, or just 'darting among unrealities'? > The conditions for understanding of whatever level > is simply > hearing more, considering more and studying the > present moment. > It works its way gradually. We will still get angry > again and > again but, if we have heard much, if the conditions > have been > fulfilled, we will learn a little from even the > akusala. It is > not us who is angry- it is simply anger arising. ...right... > Dosa is the > rough dhamma, the ugly cetasika, but it is not ours, > it is > alien. ...right... > And when we don't learn anything that is dhamma too > - it shows > us that we haven't really listened enough. That we > have only > been paying lip-service to Dhamma. It lets us know > that > confidence in kamma and vipaka is low. It is telling > us - "you > are heedless, life is short, do not be negligent." > > > > > As you explained - we have to expect > > > deterioration - > > > the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps > us to > > > understand > > > the situation with patience. We only help when > there > > > is kusala - > > > no other way. > > > > And am I wrong to conclude that, we can't cause > the > > arising of present kusala? and that, therefore, > the > > only 'sammavayama' is to try to cultivate panna > now, > > in the hope of conditioning the arising of kusala > in > > the future? If so, is the effort (based on the > desire > > (tanha? chanda?) for the future arising of kusala) > > akusala? Or have I got all of this hopelessly > > confused...? > > > Hopelessly confused is all dhamma too. It is anatta. > Trying too > much will surely be done with tanha - it will just > block > understanding. ...yeah...guess I'll turn in. Good night, sir... mn 1685 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops (Embedded image moved to file: pic08256.pcx) Dear Robert, your question was "> Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should > aim for the highest > goal is a type of panna itself i think. > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim. > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta) > dear gayan, Is it panna or is it tanha? Robert " now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, not tanha, what you said was quite clear, please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end desire , so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta , viriya, vimamsa) ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for spiritual development) some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic attainments , another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( sotapanna ) and to be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha warned) one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to any sort of a realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not a sort of a panna? (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood or suta buddhahood what drives them? a sort of a desire? Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what I have in mind (to get clarified from you) :o) yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex discussions carried on in this e community..but I thought that this is an opportunity to know whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a disadvantageous ditthi thanx in advance. Attachment 1k (application/octet-stream) pic08256.pcx 1686 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Jim Thanks very much for joining us and for the detailed introduction. We look forward to your contributions on aspects of Pali and of course generally. > still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have > been interested in > Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the > early stages. I have done > some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana > (currently studying the 24 > paccayas) and would like to get started on the other > five books too. I'm Sounds like you have much in common with the rest of us! Jonothan 1687 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 0:59pm Subject: Ch VI 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo vangceti. 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in the noble order. This is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. But it is not allowed for a monk to give to laypeople other than the gifts of the dhamma( dhammadanas). Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the commodities received as alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with monks , they will more and more aims in return) But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the laypeple please by giving material gifts and worldly gifts is samvibhaga seelatha, but its miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and entertain a liking and friendship with the monk, but the point is this type of particular dhammas can be associated with even a thief/criminal who helps them, does favourable things for them. This may appear to build confidence in the lay followers' minds but its is a type of tanha associated with piti. (sapitika tanha). As always the idea here is to distinguish between the kusala ad the akusala. No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is detected. 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata vangceti The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up with the unsuitable, unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay followers is unsuitable. Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( the 32, ie..rajakata, corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga viharata is a quality that should be developed by monks/yogins. the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything for, ignoring the lay followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not gifting with dhamma etc. So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the asamsaggaviharata. This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the yogins who have gone forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in observing the holylife. So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. contd. 1688 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Robert & Gayan, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa) >sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other >thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that >was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help >anything. well, I'm way behind you guys in this area...still plenty of dosa (for me) when I see poorly behaved monks altho' reminding myself of what the sangha represents helps a little, intellectually... Reading & hearing incorrect dhamma is a condition for more dosa too....If I heard something which didn't seem correct on this list, that would be fine, as I'd feel we could help....but when there's no chance to help and the only answer is equanimity and awareness of the cittas, there's a problem. This probably says more about the dosa towards the dosa than anything else! As we keep saying, who's complaining about the lobha and moha? Sarah As you explained - we have to expect deterioration - >the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand >the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala - >no other way. >Robert > >--- protectID wrote: > Dear mike, > > > > I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to > > the monk , > > who was disguising as a colonel, > > Deterioration is everywhere, > > It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent > > that - when > > one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh > > ..look at you > > in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ ) > > But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how > > buddha have > > explained why this will happen in the future. > > > > I recollect, it is also said that in the future there will > > be a stage > > where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be > > distinguished > > from laypeople ) :o) > > , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that > > the merit > > gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the > > sangha lead by > > arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is) > > > > :o) > > > > > > rgds. > > 1690 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death Dear Amara, >Dear Kom and Sarah, > >It is a small booklet of excerpts of sutta her talks and a >discussion, I will find out if it has been translated, if not it can >be easily done, except that I am still working on an article at the >moment. anumodana in advance! I look f/w to reading it. No hurry! I have been having a very busy two weeks personal and >family affairs mostly, luckily over (I hope!). Lots of realities to >study in life! More than usual (realities to study)?!?! seems like that when we're busy, doesn't it? Still 24hrs'realities! We plan our lives so well, but anything can and does happen and then we get tested..... take care Amara, Sarah 1691 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit >Dear Sarah, > >Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to >Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya. > >pakatúpanissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third >decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya, the commentary >to the “Paěěhĺna” (the Pańcappakaraůatthakathĺ) explains the term >“pakata” in pakatúpanissaya. Pakata means done properly, done >thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were “done thoroughly”, often >performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual. >In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the >arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas >conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external >conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one >associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they >cause to arise. > I'm enjoying our paccaya (conditions) studies, even if I'm a bit slow... I should have 'twigged' you were talking about upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition ) and not nissaya paccaya as the latter made no sense in the context... I'm also looking at Nina's Conditions and the section on pakatupanissaya and am reflecting on the discussion with Leonardo about sila as there is a connction by pakatupanissaya for performing other kusala and developing wisdom... I'll quote (but excuse any changes as I'm quoting from an older (1990) edition of NVG's Conditions as haven't printed out the new one yet....it's rather spaced out for that): 'Also connected with the term pakatupanissaya is 'pakati' which means naturally, by nature. The conditioning factor conditions other dhammas to arise naturally, and it can condition them without the assistance of decisive support condition of object or proximate decisive support condition. For example, when there is strong saddha, confidence in kusala, it can be a cogent reason for the arising of kusala citta without there being the need to be dependent on decisive support condition of object and decisive support condition of proximity. We read in the "Patthana"...,that one, by the strong dependence of confidence performs dana, sila, develops jhana, learning, generosity or wisdom one performs kusala or develops jhana, insight, the Path...' ***** In other words all kinds of kusala can support each other by this condition. Thanks, Sarah 1692 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 2:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >...well, I'm still quite grateful for a pass to the >kids' table (or the doggie-door, for that >matter)--since you mention it, though, I've never >experienced even what I used to think were 'insights' >during 'formal meditation'--anything that's EVER >'clicked' 'for me' has done so in the course of >'everyday life'... ..and at unexpected times like during the cold shower! At this rate you'll be at the adult table in no time!! > > P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the > > experience of coldness > > through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 > > moments of dosa... > >This is very interesting! Sorry if this question is >inane, but any idea how long it takes for these 17 >moments to arise and subside? > Actually before I answer (or don't answer) yr qu, I need to correct myself on the quick, sloppy p.s. above... what i meant to say is that the rupa, say the 'cold' experienced lasts as long as 17 moments of citta....in fact this is how it can be experienced. I won't get too technical here and you can read it in NVG's Ab in DL or I can get technical in reply. out of these 17 cittas, 7 are the javana cittas (kusala or akusala cittas 'running through' the object and it's with these cittas only that there may be dosa, not with the 17 as I sloppily wrote above. In semi answer to yr qu, these 17 moments are far faster than we can imagine (Amara can probably give the precise answer)...when it seems there was a few moments' dosa, there were actually many, many, many processes or sets of cittas with many other realities in between. In fact it's rather remarkable that the characteristic of any reality can appear and be known..... Others may like to add more detail on this. Sarah > > Khun > > Sujin used to say to me when I had a nasty cold, >just > > a moment of unpleasant > > bodily feeling and then all those many moments of > > dosa are the real > > problem...looks like you don't need to be told! > >...no, the difference between the dukkhavedana and the >dosa are (grossly and conceptually) clear--in >retrospect, of course--but I think it'll be a long >time before I'll no longer benefit from being >reminded... > >Many thanks, as always, Sarah, > >Mike > > > > > 1693 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. > My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand > for the Ariya Disciples. Dear Alex, I find it very hard to respect them myself, except when they are performing some function of the sankha, for example when they teach the dhamma, (although when it is not according to the Tipitaka that can be cause for dosa too) or when they study the dhamma (like when they show an interest for books and such). > My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure > that they are not worthy? > > A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his > supporters see nothing wrong with it. I don't think I would go so far as to support even a layperson who's addicted to anything. For monks as for laypeople, substance abuse can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be harmful in the end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its derivatives is fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up these things, or even other possessions, could ever give up the self? Amara 1694 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:53pm Subject: Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death > Lots of realities to > >study in life! > > More than usual (realities to study)?!?! > > seems like that when we're busy, doesn't it? Still 24hrs'realities! We plan > our lives so well, but anything can and does happen and then we get > tested..... Dear Sarah, Let's say more variety of connotations to the six dvara! In other words, more pannati classifications to deal with than the 'normal day' which is continuing a few days more by the way! It is really wonderful that anything can be the object of awareness, isn't it, Amara 1695 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 8:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Gayan, Another good one--I particularly noted the term, 'sapitika tanha'--one to watch out for. This one can send you in circles like a dog, chasing it's own tail, for, well--aeons? I know... Thanks again, Mike --- protectID wrote: > > > > 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo > vangceti. > > 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in > the noble order. This > is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. > But it is not allowed for a monk to give to > laypeople other than the gifts > of the dhamma( dhammadanas). > Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the > commodities received as > alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with > monks , they will more > and more aims in return) > But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the > laypeple please by > giving material gifts and worldly gifts is > samvibhaga seelatha, but its > miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) > In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and > entertain a liking and > friendship with the monk, but the point is this type > of particular dhammas > can be associated with even a thief/criminal who > helps them, does > favourable things for them. > This may appear to build confidence in the lay > followers' minds but its is > a type of tanha associated with piti. > (sapitika tanha). > As always the idea here is to distinguish between > the kusala ad the > akusala. > No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is > detected. > > 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata > vangceti > > The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up > with the unsuitable, > unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay > followers is unsuitable. > Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( > the 32, ie..rajakata, > corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga > viharata is a quality that > should be developed by monks/yogins. > > the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything > for, ignoring the lay > followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not > gifting with dhamma > etc. > So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the > asamsaggaviharata. > This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the > yogins who have gone > forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in > observing the holylife. > So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. > > > contd. > > > 1696 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again Dear Amara and Alex, --- amara chay wrote: > > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I > > still show them my > > respect. > > My action is based on the fact that they are > > wearing the robe which > > stand > > for the Ariya Disciples. > > > Dear Alex, > > I find it very hard to respect them myself, except > when they are > performing some function of the sankha, for example > when they teach > the dhamma, (although when it is not according to > the Tipitaka that > can be cause for dosa too) or when they study the > dhamma (like when > they show an interest for books and such). > > > > My question is that should we continue support > > them when we know > > for sure > > that they are not worthy? > > > > A few months ago, some of my friends were > > talking about a 70+ > > year old > > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of > > his life. Of > > course, his > > supporters see nothing wrong with it. Ajahn Chah, a relentlessly observant monk, had a lifelong cigarette addiction. I think that, in the NE, old forest monks tended to identify smoking with use of betel-nut, neither of which they regarded as intoxicants. > I don't think I would go so far as to support even a > layperson who's > addicted to anything. For monks as for laypeople, > substance abuse > can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be > harmful in the > end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its > derivatives is > fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up > these things, or > even other possessions, could ever give up the self? After all, are not these the result of anusaya? And uncontrollable, until the right conditions arise? (By the way, smoking is no longer allowed in the wats of Ajahn Chah's tradtion...) Thanks in advance for corrections... Mike 1697 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert & Gayan, > well, I'm way behind you guys in this area...still > plenty of dosa (for me) > when I see poorly behaved monks altho' reminding > myself of what the sangha > represents helps a little, intellectually... Reading > & hearing incorrect > dhamma is a condition for more dosa too... Well, I'm about a lightyear behind ALL of you, but, Sarah, if, when encountering a corrupt monk or teaching, one looks at the 'instantaneously' arisen(real) dosa instead of the (unreal) monk or teaching, then...? > If I > heard something which didn't > seem correct on this list, that would be fine, as > I'd feel we could > help....but when there's no chance to help and the > only answer is equanimity > and awareness of the cittas, there's a problem. This > probably says more > about the dosa towards the dosa than anything else! > As we keep saying, who's > complaining about the lobha and moha? THAT's what I have the hardest time keeping in mind... Regards, Ma'am, mn 1698 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:15pm Subject: Re: The ugly void > We recently received a letter from a friend of 'mature' years who has been > experiencing some difficulties which some of you may be able to offer some > useful comments on. > > His wife recently had an accident which seems to have triggered off the > following thoughts. I might add that he joined only one discussion with Khun > Sujin in Hong Kong some years ago and now lives in London. Although he has > studied some books on Buddhism generally, he is not very familiar with Pali > terms. Pls address any responses to 'Dear N.' which I can then send on by > snail mail. > > I quote parts from his letter below. > > 'your card and your concern are so welcome. We have had the feeling of > being alone together for a long time now...and it is somewhat haunting, but > being alone ALONE is a difficult one here (in London).... > > I have not mentioned this to anyone but B. (his wife) and she isn't much for > such dialogue now, but being in essence a secular humanist (certainly I > don't believe there is a divine person who looks or should look.... on me > with a special kindness (why should that be?), the void is ugly...no one to > pray to, even knowing that there is no stimulus/response mechanism. > > Sorry for the sense of emptiness. The time is tough, but hopefully I'll be > tougher, > best, > N. Dear Sarah, Wouldn't it be wonderful if he could communicate with us here on the list via the internet? That should fill his void some! Failing that, I think you might send him some of our articles from the site, such as: Q&A 2 From: "amarin olarn" Subject: Dhamma question Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 10:34:59 GMT Please answer Khun Kalya's question, 'Why were we born?' Thank you, Olarn Why were we born? Because it is such a short question, before answering we would like to establish some common grounds as to the aspects of the question you asked about. What does the word 'why' infer? Does it mean one or all of the following: to perform which functions, for what purpose, or is it a reproach, whyever were we born, maybe it would have been better that we had not. This answer is intended for these three interpretations, so if we have misunderstood the question please send us another. If you wanted to know what we are to do to be worth the while to have been born, you must have heard that to be born a human is very difficult. When life leaves a world or a lifetime, the chances of being reborn in other worlds than the human one is extremely high. The best thing about being born a human is the privilege to study the dhamma towards the realization and attainment of nibbana. Planes of existence lower than the human one are too tormenting, while the higher ones are too pleasurable, or have too long a lifespan to easily see the dukkha of samsara-vatta. Even the Buddhas were all enlightened in their human rebirths. Since we were born humans, especially having had the chance to hear the Buddha's teachings of the dhamma, we should use this rare privilege to develop sati-patthana, increase panna and even if we do not become enlightened to attain nibbana in this lifetime, we would have accumulated conditions for enlightenment in future lives. If you wondered for what purpose we were born, that it seems useless, perhaps even harmful, or that there should never have been any humans at all, then the distinct births of things is not dictated or controlled by anyone, but happen according to causes and conditions. Kamma performed in the past, both kusala and akusala, would be paccaya for citta, cetasika and rupa to arise, and each time they fall away, there are conditions for others to immediately arise in continuation. As long as there are conditions to be born, there must be rebirth. Through eternity we have traveled the innumerable rounds of samsara-vatta; according to worldly values we would have done incalculable deeds of goodness and maybe much harm also. We must have already been born both in the highset heaven and the lowest hell. The worlds or rebirths are not important in the least. What matters is whether we realize that samsara-vatta is to be relinquished. If we really see the harm of being born and truly wish to abandon it, we would be able to do so by acheiving nibbana. Those who have attained nibbana are the arahanta. They have abandoned both the kusala and akusala, eradicated all paccaya for rebirths. Nibbana is the reality that does not arise, therefore it does not fall away. The reason that some wonder why we were ever born is because they feel that life is dukkha and wish to escape it. The important thing is whether we understand what dukkha is. How do you understand the tilakkhana or the three characteristics of sankhara-dhamma, namely aniccata, dukkhata and anattata? Dukkha is not the reality that dislikes, is troubled or worried, or sad and depressed. The Buddhist terms for these characteristics are dosa. If the causes of these feelings were to disappear, would you still feel that life is unhappiness? Dukkha, the characteristic of all sankhara-dhamma, is the characteristic of impermanence, being subject to changes, to arisings and falling aways. In reality we have gone through these rounds of rebirth for such an eternity because of our attachments to life, or to being and existing. This pleasure in being born is there at every birth, even in a person who is born in the lowest hell. As soon as the patisandhi citta had arisen, the pleasure in being born would arise. This contentment is extremely hard to abandon, it takes the inestimably supreme panna of the Samma-sambuddha to realize and to relinquish. The Buddha taught us to abandon ties, withdraw from attachments to kama, to see the harm of kama, and showed us dukkha, the causes of dukkha, the eradication of dukkha, and the practice towards the eradication. Only when we are able to acheive what he has shown us can we really transcend dukkha. ********* Also perhaps the second part of Q&A 3: Question: What to do if one wants to practice the dhamma towards release, when one has to live in this world of chaos, confusion and contention? Having seen birth, aging, sickness and death, I don't want to be reborn. Answer: You 'wish to practice the dhamma towards release' but feel that the life full of chaos, confusion and contention presents an obstacle. On this subject, we would like you to consider the lives of two savaka during the times of the Buddha, namely the venerable Yasa and the slave woman Rajjumala when they first heard and became steadfast in Buddhism. Yasa had an extremely comfortable life, as the only son of a wealthy family. That he walked along musing, 'what a chaotic, problematic place this is' was not the result of any physical or mental disaster, but because his accumulations made him see the truth that to be born and alive was dukkha, the cause of problems and chaos. Thus when he heard the dhamma he was able to immediately realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma with his fully accumulated panna. The life of Rajjumala was the direct opposite; she was a slave woman whose master cruelly abused in all manners. She was repeatedly seized by the hair and injured, forcing her to shave her head in the hope of avoiding the punishment. Instead the master wound a cord around her head in order to seize and beat and abuse her as before, so that she was known as Rajjumala. She was so tired of living that she wanted to commit suicide. Then she met the Buddha and heard his teachings which made her reconsider and ended her unhappiness, rendering her mind light and clear, steadfast in the dhamma, until she realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma to become the sotapanna. These two examples show that the comfort or the chaotic problems of life are not paccaya for anyone to attain release. Only when there is enough accumulated wisdom to reach 'the maturity of nana' would they be able to achieve nibbana when they hear the dhamma. The venerable Yasa's life, free of suffering, did not make him overlook the problems and chaos of being born. Rajjumala attained the dhamma even though the harsh cruelty of her situation as a slave woman remained. These days there probably still are some of us who lead comfortable lives like the venerable Yasa's, while many suffer like Rajjumala. There must be some who have read or heard the teachings of the Buddha in books or dhamma presentations, but has anyone attained sotapanna? Life in this world, no matter the circumstances, is entirely the vipaka of kamma. When it is the kusala vipaka, one receives good aramana as ittharammana. When it is the akusala vipaka, it would be anittharammana. Having seen this one should not be disturbed by the results of kamma: not given to dosa when receiving things one dislikes, nor to lobha when receiving things one likes and desires, not to moha which arises with every citta that does not evolve with dana, sila or bhavana. You are 'tired of chaos, confusion and contention, and having seen birth, aging, sickness and death, don't want to be reborn,' ' want to practice the dhamma towards release' from 'this troubled, chaotic world'. If the chaotic trouble were to disappear, for example your situation improves, you receive all you ever wanted, those who give you trouble stop or leave you alone; or you reach a heavenly plane where there is only great happiness exempt from old age or death, or patisandhi in the brahma world to maintain that status for so long that death seems an impossibility: would you still wish to 'practice the dhamma towards release'? Or would you then consider that your goals have been reached? It would not be like the venerable Yasa who saw trouble and chaos in a life without hardship. Any unpleasant or undesirable feeling is dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want. But a closer enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha. Generally overlooked because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy that pleases with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to overcome. When you see the trouble, chaos, and contention of life, the dukkha of being born, growing old and dying, and see that to avoid all this is not to be reborn; how can the latter happen? By being able to relinquish the desire to have and to be, or bhavatanha, by severing all paccaya to be born again or to attenuate the attachments to everything. The Buddha said that to have a hundred loves is to have a hundred dukkha; one love, one dukkha; none, no dukkha. To be able to relinquish desires one must study the true essence of Buddhism. Read or listen to the dhamma until you understand, follow the reasoning conscientiously, and develop satipatthana, be aware of one's citta to realize the arising and falling away of all dhamma that evolve according to conditions, beyond anyone's power of control, or the self. Continue to accumulate and develop until 'the maturity of nana' is reached for panna to arise and truly fully realize the dhamma. ********** Do you think it might help? Amara 1699 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > what i meant to > say is that the rupa, say > the 'cold' experienced lasts as long as 17 moments > of citta....in fact this > is how it can be experienced. I won't get too > technical here and you can > read it in NVG's Ab in DL or I can get technical in > reply. out of these 17 > cittas, 7 are the javana cittas (kusala or akusala > cittas 'running through' > the object and it's with these cittas only that > there may be dosa, not with > the 17 as I sloppily wrote above. > > In semi answer to yr qu, these 17 moments are far > faster than we can imagine I assumed so, that an observable or remember-able period must have contained oh-my-gosh astronomical numbers of these 17-moment series... > (Amara can probably give the precise answer)...when > it seems there was a few > moments' dosa, there were actually many, many, many > processes or sets of > cittas with many other realities in between. In fact > it's rather remarkable > that the characteristic of any reality can appear > and be known..... Anyway, thanks for the clarifications. MUCH more homework for me... Mike 1700 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > Ajahn Chah, a relentlessly observant monk, had a > lifelong cigarette addiction. I think that, in the > NE, old forest monks tended to identify smoking with > use of betel-nut, neither of which they regarded as > intoxicants. Dear Mike, With the right understanding of a certain level, I doubt that there can be any addiction, without the self, how can there be? A bhikkhu being eaten by a tiger attained arahantship, what's some physical or mental malaise to someone with higher understanding? As to addiction/normal usage, I think one needs not be a monk to tell the difference in the desire (lobha) for certain effects and feelings derived from the practice, whatever it is. Certainly with awareness one can tell if it is lobha or upekkha in 'addictions'. > > I don't think I would go so far as to support even a > > layperson who's > > addicted to anything. For monks as for laypeople, > > substance abuse > > can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be > > harmful in the > > end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its > > derivatives is > > fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up > > these things, or > > even other possessions, could ever give up the self? > > After all, are not these the result of anusaya? And > uncontrollable, until the right conditions arise? (By > the way, smoking is no longer allowed in the wats of > Ajahn Chah's tradtion...) Certainly, but remember that the anusaya are completely eradicated by attainment, respectively, level by level. Which does not mean that one should rush to satisfy the anusaya (latent tendencies, more or less imperceptible, perhaps you meant the vasana?) which hasn't arisen, nor indulge any indulgences where really avoidable. For an extreme example I would respect the foulest drunkard if he could teach me the right dhamma, but I still probably wouldn't buy him a drink. I have heard that smoking could be good for some kinds of asthma and two or three cigarettes could be medically recommended, so it doesn't mean that the opposite extreme could be good, except for bhikkhus who, by ordaining, have announced to the world that they are trying to follow the footsteps of the ariya. Shouldn't they know that such addictions are nothing compared to the addictions to life? How would they be able to give up the self, meaning all the six dvara of the world, since they cannot give up these little habits? Amara 1701 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:22pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > I have heard that smoking could be good for some kinds of > asthma and two or three cigarettes could be medically recommended, > so it doesn't mean that the opposite extreme could be good, except > for bhikkhus who, by ordaining, have announced to the world that > they are trying to follow the footsteps of the ariya. Dear all, Sorry to correct myself again, actually I thing that medical purposes are the only areas where all kinds of addictive substances can be used as necessary. Vinaya experts please correct me if I am wrong, Amara 1702 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, I agree: I can respect the monkhood and the robe, but not necessarily the person wearing the robe if that person is not worthy. But, fortunately, I have met many monks worthy of great respect here as well. My son has been a monk for 6 phansa at Wat Bavornives, and through him I have met some wonderful monks with great learning. One of them, in fact, was instrumental in leading me to contact dhammastudy.com in the first place, so I feel very indebted and grateful to them. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > Dear Betty, > > Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the Path. > They create terrible kamma for themselves. > > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. > My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand > for the Ariya Disciples. > > My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure > that they are not worthy? > > A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his > supporters see nothing wrong with it. > > Anumodana, > Alex > ================== > >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > > >> >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:41:26 +0700 > > > >Dear Alex, > >Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken > >the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the > >Path. > >One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the > >Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to > >bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is > >attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them > >don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these > >goings > >on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be > >worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, > >all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are > >at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give > >thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha > >meant them to be studied. > > > >with metta, > >Betty > >__________________________ > >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > >Bangkok 10900, Thailand > >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > >protectID> > > > > > > 1703 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 10:55pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > But, fortunately, I > have met many monks worthy of great respect here as well. Dear Betty, I agree that to hear a learned monk is one of the most impressive experiences in one's life. Amara 1704 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again Dear Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > With the right understanding of a certain level, I > doubt that there > can be any addiction, without the self, how can > there be? I honestly don't have enough understanding of physical addiction to answer that, Amara--in fact, I'll gladly defer to your knowledge of the subject... > A bhikkhu > being eaten by a tiger attained arahantship, what's > some physical or > mental malaise to someone with higher understanding? > As to > addiction/normal usage, I think one needs not be a > monk to tell the > difference in the desire (lobha) for certain effects > and feelings > derived from the practice, whatever it is. ...true... > Certainly with awareness > one can tell if it is lobha or upekkha in > 'addictions'. Surely! > > > I don't think I would go so far as to support > even a > > > layperson who's > > > addicted to anything. For monks as for > laypeople, > > > substance abuse > > > can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can > be > > > harmful in the > > > end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or > its > > > derivatives is > > > fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up > > > these things, or > > > even other possessions, could ever give up the > self? > > > > After all, are not these the result of anusaya? > And > > uncontrollable, until the right conditions arise? > (By > > the way, smoking is no longer allowed in the wats > of > > Ajahn Chah's tradtion...) > > > Certainly, but remember that the anusaya are > completely eradicated > by attainment, respectively, level by level. ...right... > Which > does not mean > that one should rush to satisfy the anusaya (latent > tendencies, more > or less imperceptible, perhaps you meant the > vasana?) Well, I was groping for the correct term, in this context, for 'accumulations'. As you know, my grasp of abhidhamma, much less it's terminology, doesn't qualify even as elementary. I should probably stop trying to use these expressions till I know what I'm talking about...! > which hasn't > arisen, nor indulge any indulgences where really > avoidable. For an > extreme example I would respect the foulest drunkard > if he could > teach me the right dhamma, but I still probably > wouldn't buy him a > drink. I have heard that smoking could be good for > some kinds of > asthma and two or three cigarettes could be > medically recommended, > so it doesn't mean that the opposite extreme could > be good, except > for bhikkhus who, by ordaining, have announced to > the world that > they are trying to follow the footsteps of the > ariya. Shouldn't > they know that such addictions are nothing compared > to the > addictions to life? How would they be able to give > up the self, > meaning all the six dvara of the world, since they > cannot give up > these little habits? But is there anyone to give up the self, or any of these little habits? Thanks, as always, Amara, for helping to take these baby-steps--ridiculous though they are in a grown man... Mike 1705 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 11:34pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > > But is there anyone to give up the self, or any of > these little habits? Dear Mike, Precisely, there is only the illusion of self in the clinging. Or panna that knows that there is no self at all, and therefore no habit to give up. I don't know if my writings do more help than harm, but I would like to give a try at explaining things as well as I could. I think most of the time my intentions have been kusala rather than akusala, all the same. Which does not stop me from making mistakes, that's for sure. And anyone who does not find my explanations to their taste could easily skip reading them, I would think! Amara 1706 From: m. nease Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 0:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again Dear Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Precisely, there is only the illusion of self in the > clinging. Or > panna that knows that there is no self at all, and > therefore no > habit to give up. > > I don't know if my writings do more help than harm, I certainly think they have done and continue to do a world of help! > but I would like > to give a try at explaining things as well as I > could. I think most > of the time my intentions have been kusala rather > than akusala, all > the same. I have no doubt of it! > Which does not stop me from making > mistakes, that's for > sure. And anyone who does not find my explanations > to their taste > could easily skip reading them, I would think! Amara, I have nothing but admiration for your explanations. I hope you would never imagine that I would ever skip reading them--since discovering this list, they have been one of the highlights of every day. If my akusala ramblings have given cause for offense, please accept my apologies! By the way, I hope I didn't seem to be excusing the behavior of unobservant monks. I can't think of a happier life than that of an observant monk who understands the dhammavinaya, or a more debased life than that of an unobservant monk who doesn't. I hope to experience the former some day soon. For now, I'm just trying to fit my (very limited) understanding into the discussions of you, my teachers (all of you)--I would not presume to criticize, even if I thought you were wrong (which I don't!) Thanks to you all for your patience--and I do understand if you run out. Maybe I should just be quiet and listen for a while... mn 1707 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 0:54am Subject: Re: Karaoke again > I hope you would never imagine that I > would ever skip reading them--since discovering this > list, they have been one of the highlights of every > day. If my akusala ramblings have given cause for > offense, please accept my apologies! Dear Mike, Please take it easy, I'm not such an ogre as you may think! I was not the least bit upset, I assure you, no appologies needed. > By the way, I hope I didn't seem to be excusing the > behavior of unobservant monks. I can't think of a > happier life than that of an observant monk who > understands the dhammavinaya, or a more debased life > than that of an unobservant monk who doesn't. I hope > to experience the former some day soon. For now, I'm > just trying to fit my (very limited) understanding > into the discussions of you, my teachers (all of > you)--I would not presume to criticize, even if I > thought you were wrong (which I don't!) > > Thanks to you all for your patience--and I do > understand if you run out. Maybe I should just be > quiet and listen for a while... Absolutely not, we shall miss you too much, I hope I have enough patience for a hundred like you who really wish to learn. Please remember that dhamma should bring kusala and not the reverse, I only thought that just in case anyone found akusala arising from my writings, they should naturally not read it. Anything so long as understanding and kusala grows, Amara 1708 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 1:12am Subject: Re: Karaoke again Dear all, This is the wicked witch of the west- er- east? siging off for the night, see you all tomorrow, including you, Mike, or I'll turn you into a mouse (computer clicker)!!! Amara 1709 From: m. nease Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 1:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again I won't sleep a wink! And pleasant dreams to you, Ma'am... --- amara chay wrote: > Dear all, > > This is the wicked witch of the west- er- east? > siging off for the > night, see you all tomorrow, including you, Mike, or > I'll turn you > into a mouse (computer clicker)!!! > > Amara > > 1710 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 2, 2000 9:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 12:37:23 -0000 > > However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my >respect. > > My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which >stand > > for the Ariya Disciples. > > >Dear Alex, > >I find it very hard to respect them myself, except when they are >performing some function of the sankha, for example when they teach >the dhamma, (although when it is not according to the Tipitaka that >can be cause for dosa too) or when they study the dhamma (like when >they show an interest for books and such). Dear Amara, Perhaps, the reason I show them my respect (with politeness) is because I'm a coward. I still talk to them even though the small talk will be very small (read short). > > My question is that should we continue support them when we know >for sure > > that they are not worthy? > > > > A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ >year old > > senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of >course, his > > supporters see nothing wrong with it. > > >I don't think I would go so far as to support even a layperson who's >addicted to anything. I agree with you. When I voiced my opinion, some of my friends told me indirectly to ... shut up! They warned me about creating verbal kamma. :-))) >For monks as for laypeople, substance abuse >can't be beneficial, and overdoing anything can be harmful in the >end. Even opium has its uses, but abusing it or its derivatives is >fatal. One wonders how those who can't give up these things, or >even other possessions, could ever give up the self? :-))) Anumodana, Alex Tran 1711 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Kom, >From: Kom Tukovinit >Dear Sarah, > >I am sorry for the sloppy pali and english mix-up that I had; I still >haven't >looked at Nina's materials (have them on my computer now; thanks to >Robert), so I still don't know the right spellings. The "nisaya" that >was in >my earlier post, as below, is in fact a detailed classification of >"upanissaya" >pacaya: a mile apart from what my posting implied. There are three >detailed classification: >Aramanuapanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as sense object >Anatarupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya in the same way as anatara pacaya >Pakatupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as something that gets accumulated >(???: I will search more on this for a better translation). o.k. we've sorted this out & as i said, I should have realised this is what you were referring to! > >Therefore, for phassa being pacaya for the vedana arising after it, it >is not a >nissaya pacaya, but it is a upanissaya pacaya. > right you are! >For the reference materials that I have regarding Nissaya pacaya, there >are >only three detailed classifications: > > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya > > (base-object-prenascence-dependence) > > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence) > > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence) > >I don't have the fourth one in the materials, and my understanding of >pali is >so superficial that I can't even guess what the fourth one is: > > 4.-sahajata-purejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence) >I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on the 4th. > o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks than in its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf! This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata niss.) above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not pure prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent mental aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.' It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time. One example would be where a combination is taking place such as when visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7 primary mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya above (1., 2. and 3.....I think!) I don't know if this helps...... What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the vultures, is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again i quote from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have arisen previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause the arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these rupas have arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta.' '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on the previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning later but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast learner (I don't just mean intellectually)! Sarah p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia? if so, I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin. 1712 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 9:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan and group, I flew up to osaka yesterday - go to a conference tommorow- and am now in an internet lounge (paying through the nose) so will make a brief reply only. --- protectID wrote: > >> Dear Robert, > now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, > not tanha, > what you said was quite clear, > please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end > desire , > so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta > , viriya, > vimamsa) > ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for > spiritual development) > some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic > attainments , > another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( > sotapanna ) and to > be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha > warned) > one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to > any sort of a > realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) This is all thinking about dhamma. What is underlying the thinking? Is it panna or is it lobha? So very easy when we are thinking about nibbana and attainments and beibg sotappana to overlook the actual moments. Any attainments come only because there has been, over and over, uncountable times, life after life, the study of this moment with a citta rooted in amoha -panna. Even if the thinking is kusala it should be known that we cant control whether we wil have chanda or viriya or vimasa or citta as a dominant iddhipada. The conditions are far too complex for this to be arranged. Thinking that we should have chanda is likely to be conditioned by a subtle belief in a self that can do so. You didn:t arrange to be born in sri lanka, nor could you decide to be interested in Abhidhamma - these things happened because there was kusala chanda, for sure, but not because you tried to have kusala chanda. Do you see the difference? > > knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not > a sort of a > panna? > > (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) > > and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood > or suta buddhahood > what drives them? a sort of a desire? They have kusala chanda of the highest degree - but not by wanting kusala chanda. > > > Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what > I have in mind (to > get clarified from you) keep asking on these points. they are very difficult and I am just touching on some aspects. We should look at this type of question from many different angles. Jon and sarah and Amara and Kom and all will have comments too. It is something that I think is m\valuable. > > :o) > > yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex > discussions carried > on in this e community..but I thought that this is an > opportunity to know > whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a > disadvantageous ditthi > thanx in advance. Not elementary - very helpful. Pondering these questions can teach us much. Robert > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=pic08256.pcx 1714 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 10:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks a million for your explanation. Robert !! Your explanation is very clear. Yes, what I meant was lobha but moha made cause the mistyping in the word. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear shin, | | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, | > The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a | > sotapanna ??? | | No, namarupapariccheda- nana (distinguishing of nama and rupa) | is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as ditthi | visuddhhi(purification of view)and is the most important stage | before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the first stage | of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained it when | they concentrate and know, for example, that first there is the | intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is actually much | more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained how at that | moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the rapidity of | chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the difference | between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only occur when | wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, considering ( of | the types done with mahakusala citta associated with panna | (wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly noted, having | studied (with panna) again and again the visesa lakkhana of | different dhammas. | | Sometimes alobha likes that low level of | > satipanna | > which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. | | I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not alobha. This | actually occurs after namarupapariccheda- nana and it shows just | how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very purified and it is | clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still tanha creeps in | and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick us before | that stage? | | But I think the low level | > satipanna is visesa | > lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and | > it increases | > faith in the teaching as it happens. | | Any true understanding increases faith in the teaching | Robert | | > ----- | 1715 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Good explanation. Alex. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again | Dear Betty, | | Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the Path. | They create terrible kamma for themselves. | | However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my respect. | My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand | for the Ariya Disciples. | | My question is that should we continue support them when we know for sure | that they are not worthy? | | A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old | senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, his | supporters see nothing wrong with it. | | Anumodana, | Alex | ================== | >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" | | >| >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again | >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:41:26 +0700 | > | >Dear Alex, | >Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken | >the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the | >Path. | >One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the | >Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to | >bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is | >attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them | >don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these | >goings | >on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be | >worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future, | >all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are | >at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give | >thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha | >meant them to be studied. | > | >with metta, | >Betty | >__________________________ | >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | >Bangkok 10900, Thailand | >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | >protectID| > | > | > | > | 1716 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Shin, I still have a lot of dosa, mana, and upadana as well as other not mentioned akusala characters. As the result, I have a long long way to go due to my judgemental attitude. Anumodana, Alex ================ >From: "shinlin" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:16:09 +0700 > >Good explanation. Alex. >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th >----- Original Message ----- >From: A T >>Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:22 PM >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > > >| Dear Betty, >| >| Yes, it's too bad that those monks miss their chance to walk on the >Path. >| They create terrible kamma for themselves. >| >| However, as for myself, when seeing them, I still show them my >respect. >| My action is based on the fact that they are wearing the robe which stand >| for the Ariya Disciples. >| >| My question is that should we continue support them when we know for >sure >| that they are not worthy? >| >| A few months ago, some of my friends were talking about a 70+ year old >| senior monk who's addicted to cigarettes most of his life. Of course, >his >| supporters see nothing wrong with it. >| >| Anumodana, >| Alex > 1717 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Robert, loads of punnakamma for the explanation/dhamma gift, thanx!! I am sure that I will receive the answers to other questions I asked , when you have enough time. I also like for explanations on , perfecting panna( panna parami ) --- > panna and what is the way you have in mind as to use 'chanda' ( as in 4 iddhipadas) ? Thanks again for your compassion! rgds Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/03/2000 07:15:01 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan and group, I flew up to osaka yesterday - go to a conference tommorow- and am now in an internet lounge (paying through the nose) so will make a brief reply only. --- protectID wrote: > >> Dear Robert, > now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, > not tanha, > what you said was quite clear, > please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end > desire , > so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta > , viriya, > vimamsa) > ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for > spiritual development) > some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic > attainments , > another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( > sotapanna ) and to > be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha > warned) > one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to > any sort of a > realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) This is all thinking about dhamma. What is underlying the thinking? Is it panna or is it lobha? So very easy when we are thinking about nibbana and attainments and beibg sotappana to overlook the actual moments. Any attainments come only because there has been, over and over, uncountable times, life after life, the study of this moment with a citta rooted in amoha -panna. Even if the thinking is kusala it should be known that we cant control whether we wil have chanda or viriya or vimasa or citta as a dominant iddhipada. The conditions are far too complex for this to be arranged. Thinking that we should have chanda is likely to be conditioned by a subtle belief in a self that can do so. You didn:t arrange to be born in sri lanka, nor could you decide to be interested in Abhidhamma - these things happened because there was kusala chanda, for sure, but not because you tried to have kusala chanda. Do you see the difference? > > knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not > a sort of a > panna? > > (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) > > and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood > or suta buddhahood > what drives them? a sort of a desire? They have kusala chanda of the highest degree - but not by wanting kusala chanda. > > > Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what > I have in mind (to > get clarified from you) keep asking on these points. they are very difficult and I am just touching on some aspects. We should look at this type of question from many different angles. Jon and sarah and Amara and Kom and all will have comments too. It is something that I think is m\valuable. > > :o) > > yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex > discussions carried > on in this e community..but I thought that this is an > opportunity to know > whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a > disadvantageous ditthi > thanx in advance. Not elementary - very helpful. Pondering these questions can teach us much. Robert > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=pic08256.pcx 1718 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 1:10pm Subject: Ch VII 15. samgaha seelata patirupataya ananulomika samsagga vangceti. kusala samgahaseelata - gifting the (lay ..etc)followers with the dhamma, gifting the allowed ( brethern..) with helpful 'materials' , acting with amity for everyone, acting with compassion for the others..... This samgahaseelatha is a quality developed by samana/yogins. akusala ananulomikasamsagga - the mixing up with unallowed, unsuitable and affairs therein. The cheating of ananulomikasamsagga as samgahaseelatha happens not in the minds of crooks but ones who are thinking that they are actually developing a kusala. This can be detected as, One will 'feel' like much metta and samgahaseelatha for some rich followers, the people ( spouse,offsprings, etc..) of such followers. But He won't feel that with the poor ones. When cheated ,the tendency to liking the worldly affairs , taking part in them etc .. with those rich ones , can be detected. with 'real' samgahaseelatha those would not arise. 16. saccavadita patirupataya pisunavacata vangceti. saccavadita - speaking the truth, no lies, no half-truths. pisunavacata- slandering regardless of the truth or fallacy in it, slandering is akusala and miccavaca. Sometimes ones who do slandering , internally get cheated as thinking ' this is the quality of telling the truth and that is a kusala ' . 17. apisunavadita patirupataya anatthakamata vangceti. The evil of slandering is the intention to mess with the common understanding of a one with another. It is not a 'papakamma' to tell warn about a person ( or rather the evil qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of the 'another'. It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a possible harm.( a sappurisa quality ) Intention is the key here. Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not say pisunavaca..." is a stage which needs to be further examined. In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left that they sometimes have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. Anatthakamatha..... ( anattha - harm ). This cheats them . The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine apisunavacata or a cheating akusala. ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as akusala ) contd. 1719 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Nothing much to do for now in Osaka (choice of a karaoke, movie or noisy bar later tonight) so I will benefit the local economy by paying their steep internet charges. I was suprised to hear that a famous monk, Achaan cha used to smoke. It is not specifically banned in the Vinaya, thus technically one can get around it, but definitely goes against the spirit, for the reasons Amara so ably explained. I read once that his teacher Acharn Mun was also a smoker so I guess it was part of the scence in the old days. You dont see many monks smoking now. On the question of laypeople smoking. I think leave this up to conditions. It is not breaking any of the 5precepts - it is simply an unheathy habit. It wont hinder one studying abhidhamma. Sometimes it even helps people concentrate - much as having a coke or coffee can at times. For some of us it is very easy to drop such bad habits, for others very hard. I think we should not put much pressure on smokers, as other things are more important. Going broader now, and looking at lifestyles. Some cannot even keep the 5 precepts. there was a monk in the Buddhas time who couldnt cope with the severity of living a monks life so he went back to being a layman. Took to drink in a major way and in no long time was an alcoholic. He remained so until the very day he died - his last breath smelled of alcohol, it is said. when the monks asked the Buddha where he was reborn - expecting to be told in hell or as an animal- they were shocked when the Buddha said he was now in the deva realm and had attained sotapanna at the time of his death. The Buddha expalined that he had great confidence in Dhamma, still listened to Dhamma whenever he could, and had accumulated the conditions for deep wisdom. This is an unusual case but it shows us the great power of Dhamma. One of the people I admire most in Thailand (apart from the obvious ones) is a pig farmer. He is a student of Khun Thanit. As I mentioned on another post Khun Thanit really hammers home the teachings on sila. It is quite usual for one of his talks to give a detail or two about the terrors of the hell realms and how breaking sila is one way to get there. This mans livelihood is involved in growing pigs and butchering them - a very severe break in sila. However he cannot easily give up his business. It is not so easy to change profession in Thailand if you are a normal working man. But he is interested in Abhidhamma and convinced by the teachings. This is kusala of a very high level. The akusala of killing will bring its results sooner or later but so too the kusala of listening and considering will bring its profound results. he knows this and continues to listen - many in his position would rather not hear about such matters and so lose the chance to accumulate any wisdom. Robert 1720 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VII Brilliant stuff again Gayan. Completely daily life- as the Dhamma always is. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > 15. samgaha seelata patirupataya ananulomika samsagga > vangceti. > > kusala samgahaseelata - gifting the (lay ..etc)followers with > the dhamma, > gifting the allowed ( brethern..) with helpful 'materials' , > acting with amity > for everyone, acting with compassion for the others..... > This samgahaseelatha is a quality developed by samana/yogins. > > akusala ananulomikasamsagga - the mixing up with unallowed, > unsuitable and > affairs therein. > > The cheating of ananulomikasamsagga as samgahaseelatha happens > not in the minds > of crooks but ones who are thinking that they are actually > developing a kusala. > This can be detected as, > > One will 'feel' like much metta and samgahaseelatha for some > rich followers, > the people ( spouse,offsprings, etc..) of such followers. > But He won't feel that with the poor ones. > > When cheated ,the tendency to liking the worldly affairs , > taking part in them > etc .. with those rich ones , can be detected. > > with 'real' samgahaseelatha those would not arise. > > > 16. saccavadita patirupataya pisunavacata vangceti. > > saccavadita - speaking the truth, no lies, no half-truths. > pisunavacata- slandering > > > regardless of the truth or fallacy in it, slandering is > akusala and miccavaca. > Sometimes ones who do slandering , internally get cheated as > thinking ' this is > the quality of telling the truth and that is a kusala ' . > > > > 17. apisunavadita patirupataya anatthakamata vangceti. > > The evil of slandering is the intention to mess with the > common understanding of > a one with another. > It is not a 'papakamma' to tell warn about a person ( or > rather the evil > qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of > the 'another'. > It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a > possible harm.( a > sappurisa quality ) > Intention is the key here. > > Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not > say pisunavaca..." > is a stage which needs to be further examined. > In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left > that they sometimes > have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. > Anatthakamatha..... > ( anattha - harm ). > This cheats them . > The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine > apisunavacata or > a cheating akusala. > ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as > akusala ) > > > > contd. > > > 1721 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the > "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks > than in its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf! > > This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata > niss.) > above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence > (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not > pure > prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent > mental > aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning > states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.' > > It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time. > One example would be where a combination is taking place such as > when > visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7 > primary > mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya > above > (1., 2. and 3.....I think!) > > I don't know if this helps...... Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for confusion are the followings: 1) When discussing pacaya, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and the conditioned dhamma (paccayapanna dhamma) can be pinned down from both time and type. For example, phassa arising now is an ahara pacaya for the citta arising at the same time. 2) This doesn't seem to be true to the 4th classification: I can't think of any pacaya dhamma than can be both sahajata (rupa nama being pacaya to rupa nama) and purejata (rupa being pacaya to nama) at the same time. 3) Dhammas that can be Vathupurejata pacaya to nama are the base objects, but only the heartbase can be sahajata to the patisandhi nama. However, the heartbase can't be both sahajata and Vathupurejata pacaya to the same nama at the same time: it can be sahajata to patisandhi namas, and then Vathupurejata for different sets of nama arising after it. 4) What I understand from your conclusion is that this particular condition MUST have multiple dhammas contributing as pacayas. 5) This is certainly different from the explanations of other pacayas as the explanations follow rule 1) above. 6) I think the other classifications of nissaya (sahajata, vathupurejata, vatharamanapurejata) have already covered the condition explained in sahajata-vathupurejata missaka. 7) Possibly, this is the reason why other sources don't discuss these 4th classification. 8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!! > > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the > vultures, > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again > i quote > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have > arisen > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause > the > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these > rupas have > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as > seventeen moments of citta.' > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on > the > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does > not > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be purejata (pre-nascence) sahajata (conascence) paccajata (post-nascense) Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be: atthi (presence-condition) natthi (absence-condition) vigata (disappearance [gone]) avigata (non-disappearance [still there]) Just the combination of the jata and the presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind- boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc... > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning > later > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways: 1) cause of arising 2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???) 3) both cause of arising and support > > Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast > learner (I > don't just mean intellectually)! Thanks. I only quote from some books every time your prompt me. > p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia? > if so, > I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin. I am going through the infamous INS naturalization interview on Nov 16, making it impossible to make an advanced arrangement. Unless the interview goes well, AND there is still a space left [I think unlikely] in the tour group leaving for Cambodia, I won't be joining you. However, Khun Jack, Khun Oy, and Khun O are joining. Khun Jack is also particularly keen on the pacaya discussions; I believe he will be asking for Tan A. Sujin to elaborate on the subject. Anumodhana 1722 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Dear robert, A brilliant piece !, the story of Sarakani the sakyan ( the alcoholic) Its one of my favourites and it magnificiently shows the 'meaningfulness' of what buddha taught, why it is the real refuge. [ The tipitaka brilliantly displays the ideas went thru the minds of the public at that time.. they criticized saying that , ie.." ah, even the alcoholics can be sotapanna these days....." ] And I also 'suffered' with a shockwave reading in the list about that smoking habit of ven Chah, ( that was news for me) But eventually was relieved to see that no shake has happened inside about the confidence that had in his teachings. And a 'whew' followed. rgds. Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/03/2000 01:05:29 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Nothing much to do for now in Osaka (choice of a karaoke, movie or noisy bar later tonight) so I will benefit the local economy by paying their steep internet charges. I was suprised to hear that a famous monk, Achaan cha used to smoke. It is not specifically banned in the Vinaya, thus technically one can get around it, but definitely goes against the spirit, for the reasons Amara so ably explained. I read once that his teacher Acharn Mun was also a smoker so I guess it was part of the scence in the old days. You dont see many monks smoking now. On the question of laypeople smoking. I think leave this up to conditions. It is not breaking any of the 5precepts - it is simply an unheathy habit. It wont hinder one studying abhidhamma. Sometimes it even helps people concentrate - much as having a coke or coffee can at times. For some of us it is very easy to drop such bad habits, for others very hard. I think we should not put much pressure on smokers, as other things are more important. Going broader now, and looking at lifestyles. Some cannot even keep the 5 precepts. there was a monk in the Buddhas time who couldnt cope with the severity of living a monks life so he went back to being a layman. Took to drink in a major way and in no long time was an alcoholic. He remained so until the very day he died - his last breath smelled of alcohol, it is said. when the monks asked the Buddha where he was reborn - expecting to be told in hell or as an animal- they were shocked when the Buddha said he was now in the deva realm and had attained sotapanna at the time of his death. The Buddha expalined that he had great confidence in Dhamma, still listened to Dhamma whenever he could, and had accumulated the conditions for deep wisdom. This is an unusual case but it shows us the great power of Dhamma. One of the people I admire most in Thailand (apart from the obvious ones) is a pig farmer. He is a student of Khun Thanit. As I mentioned on another post Khun Thanit really hammers home the teachings on sila. It is quite usual for one of his talks to give a detail or two about the terrors of the hell realms and how breaking sila is one way to get there. This mans livelihood is involved in growing pigs and butchering them - a very severe break in sila. However he cannot easily give up his business. It is not so easy to change profession in Thailand if you are a normal working man. But he is interested in Abhidhamma and convinced by the teachings. This is kusala of a very high level. The akusala of killing will bring its results sooner or later but so too the kusala of listening and considering will bring its profound results. he knows this and continues to listen - many in his position would rather not hear about such matters and so lose the chance to accumulate any wisdom. Robert 1723 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, The defilements or kilesas are not you. Ha.... Ha... So when there is an arising of your kusula thinking or view, then it is just a chance of my anumodana to you, which is one way of accumulating or conditioning kusula dhammas in the Punnakiriyavatthu: 10 bases of meritourious action . Judgemental attitude is only thinking so it's not you again. It rises and falls away instantly. So where is you ??? Anumodana to your attitude saying that it's a long way to go, because you know the truth. At least, you are brave and have the courage to face the truth. Frankly speaking, sometime I have dosa when I know that it is still a long way to go.. BUT sati comes when it reminds me that it is lobha, wanting to know the realities as fast as possible. This LOBHA or tanha just simply work very hard in their job.. Haa... Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again | Dear Shin, | | I still have a lot of dosa, mana, and upadana as well as other not | mentioned akusala characters. As the result, I have a long long way to go | due to my judgemental attitude. | | Anumodana, | Alex | 1724 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VII Dear friends Thank you very much for your compassionate comments. It is so heartening to see the gratitude for the Great Sage and his sons, (ie, nettippakarana atthakatacariya dhammapala, rerukane chandavimala ) sadhu 1725 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 5:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Oops! i asked "and what is the way you have in mind as to use 'chanda' ( as in 4 iddhipadas) ? " I can now see that you have already given a relevant explanation in your previous posting.. :7) Thanx again. protectID on 11/03/2000 09:48:55 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Robert, loads of punnakamma for the explanation/dhamma gift, thanx!! I am sure that I will receive the answers to other questions I asked , when you have enough time. I also like for explanations on , perfecting panna( panna parami ) --- > panna and what is the way you have in mind as to use 'chanda' ( as in 4 iddhipadas) ? Thanks again for your compassion! rgds Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/03/2000 07:15:01 AM cc: (bcc: Gayan Karunaratne/Technology Providers/lk) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops Dear Gayan and group, I flew up to osaka yesterday - go to a conference tommorow- and am now in an internet lounge (paying through the nose) so will make a brief reply only. --- protectID wrote: > >> Dear Robert, > now , I think what I meant to give as the answer was chanda, > not tanha, > what you said was quite clear, > please clarify this for me - one needs to have desire to end > desire , > so one needs kusalacchanda ( also 4 iddhipadas ie chanda,citta > , viriya, > vimamsa) > ( following 'beings' I assume as ones who are trying for > spiritual development) > some being may have the chanda only to go for jhanic > attainments , > another may have the chanda to get the 'eye of the dhamma' ( > sotapanna ) and to > be of a guaranteed place in sugatis. ( this is where buddha > warned) > one may have the chanda , not to have any chanda attached to > any sort of a > realm, but to attain nibbana ( not vibhava tanha here) This is all thinking about dhamma. What is underlying the thinking? Is it panna or is it lobha? So very easy when we are thinking about nibbana and attainments and beibg sotappana to overlook the actual moments. Any attainments come only because there has been, over and over, uncountable times, life after life, the study of this moment with a citta rooted in amoha -panna. Even if the thinking is kusala it should be known that we cant control whether we wil have chanda or viriya or vimasa or citta as a dominant iddhipada. The conditions are far too complex for this to be arranged. Thinking that we should have chanda is likely to be conditioned by a subtle belief in a self that can do so. You didn:t arrange to be born in sri lanka, nor could you decide to be interested in Abhidhamma - these things happened because there was kusala chanda, for sure, but not because you tried to have kusala chanda. Do you see the difference? > > knowing that one 'should' aim for the nibbana ,..- is this not > a sort of a > panna? > > (this is not regarding the 'over-trying' scenario) > > and, when a being aspiring for buddhahood, pacceka buddhahood > or suta buddhahood > what drives them? a sort of a desire? They have kusala chanda of the highest degree - but not by wanting kusala chanda. > > > Robert, words do fail me , I am not sure whether I asked what > I have in mind (to > get clarified from you) keep asking on these points. they are very difficult and I am just touching on some aspects. We should look at this type of question from many different angles. Jon and sarah and Amara and Kom and all will have comments too. It is something that I think is m\valuable. > > :o) > > yes .. these questions are bit elementary as to the complex > discussions carried > on in this e community..but I thought that this is an > opportunity to know > whether I am asking these standing on a some sort of a > disadvantageous ditthi > thanx in advance. Not elementary - very helpful. Pondering these questions can teach us much. Robert > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=pic08256.pcx 1726 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >From: "shinlin" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again >Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:44:21 +0700 > >Dear Alex, > The defilements or kilesas are not you. Ha.... Ha... So when there is >an >arising of your kusula thinking or view, then it is just a chance of my >anumodana to you, which is one way of accumulating or conditioning kusula >dhammas in the Punnakiriyavatthu: 10 bases of meritourious action . > Judgemental attitude is only thinking so it's not you again. It rises >and falls away instantly. So where is you ??? Nowhere. No me. Anatta. :-))) > Anumodana to your attitude saying that it's a long way to go, because >you know the truth. At least, you are brave and have the courage to face >the >truth. Frankly speaking, sometime I have dosa when I know that it is still >a >long way to go.. BUT sati comes when it reminds me that it is lobha, >wanting >to know the realities as fast as possible. This LOBHA or tanha just simply >work very hard in their job.. Haa... Yes, it's very nice to be reminded that lobha is much more difficult to see than dosa. Before joining this group, I did not give it even half a thought. Now, ... :-))) >Anumodana >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th Anumodana to you, Alex 1727 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex, I too will respect the robe, regardless of the worthiness of the person wearing it. However, if the person is not worthy, then he will not get any support from me. Panna can tell the difference between a worthy and an unworthy monk. Part of the role of monks is to act as examples for lay persons. Monks who are unworthy are not doing their jobs as monks and therefore, having forfeited their role, forfeit the the right to receive respect from lay people. If lay people turn away from such monks and fail to support them, they can no longer remain monks since monks depend on support from the population for their survival. If more persons turn away from unworthy monks, it would act as a check on the monkhood and reduce the number of such persons in it. BUT, the catch is: most people don't have the panna to be able to tell which monks are worthy and which are unworthy, So, the quality of the monkhood is a reflection of the quality of the population: the more corrupt the monkhood, the more corrupt the lay population is as well. An example of this problem is the current ruckus over the Dhammikaya sect. They claim to be Theravada Buddhist and that they want to clean out the corruption in the monkhood. However, their chief monk, Dhammachayo, was arrested for embezzlement of fantastically large sums of temple money. And as I understand it, the more money one pays in, the more "salvation" or whatever, one is supposed to receive and the closer one is supposed to come to Arahatship, in their way of thinking. This is total avijja and corruption of the Tipitika. Our vet is a member of their sect (he is a very good vet, despite that) and when I last went to see him he tried to explain to me that their purpose was to clean up the monkhood (read: other monks, not theirs). He proceeded to show me one of their texts, in both Thai and English. And there in bold print it was written that all Buddha images that they produce should look like Dhammachayo, their head monk. And this group has many followers and a lot of money and influence. So much so, that the Ecclesiastical Council cannot stop them from spreading incorrect interpretations of dhamma. Corrupt monks <----> corrupt population; each is a reflection of the other. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again > Good explanation. Alex. > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th 1728 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:36pm Subject: Re: Karaoke again > I agree with you. When I voiced my opinion, some of my friends told me > indirectly to ... shut up! They warned me about creating verbal kamma. > :-))) Dear Alex, Then you could perhaps explain to them what verbal transgression of the 5 precepts really is, and that anything that is truthful and useful said with the intention to help and not to harm cannot break the sila! Amara 1729 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Betty, Thank you for your wisdom in this post. As I said before, I just knew Buddhism recently. Therefore, my association with monks are very limited. :-((( You are so correct in saying: >Corrupt monks <----> corrupt population; each is a reflection of the > >other. Anumodana, Alex Tran =========== 1730 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 3, 2000 11:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Karaoke again >Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:36:45 -0000 > > > > I agree with you. When I voiced my opinion, some of my friends >told me > > indirectly to ... shut up! They warned me about creating verbal >kamma. > > :-))) > > >Dear Alex, > >Then you could perhaps explain to them what verbal transgression of >the 5 precepts really is, and that anything that is truthful and >useful said with the intention to help and not to harm cannot break >the sila! > >Amara Dear Amara, Good idea! Why didn't I think of that? :-))) Metta, Alex 1731 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 1:07am Subject: Re: Accumulations,conditions,paticca --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > 8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!! Dear Sarah and Kom, I've enjoyed your discussions very much but I have very little to add, except for this reminder from the Summary, Citta Chapter 13 (p.248) part IIa in the website: Paccaya is a reality that benefits and assists other realities to arise or maintain them according to the specific kinds of conditions. Phassa-cetasika, for example, is not a lobha-cetasika, while both phassa-cetasika and lobha-cetasika are paccaya beneficent to the arising of other realities such as citta, cetasika and rupa. Since the characteristics and functions of phassa-cetasika differ from those of lobha-cetasika, the phassa-cetasika would be a different paccaya from lobha-cetasika. Phassa-cetasika is condition by being an ahara-paccaya. Ahara is a reality that brings results but it is not so steadfast as to make things flourish like the main root of a tree. While the realities that are hetu are paccaya by becoming the causes, like the tap root. Trees cannot flourish with the tap roots alone. There must be soil and water as nutrients. But without this main root, the soil and water cannot make the tree develop fully. Trees with tap roots would flourish differently from plants without one in the same way. Other realities than the 6 cetasika that are hetu are paccaya by being other conditions and not hetu-paccaya. The Patthana Book, which is the seventh and last book in the Abhidammapitaka, manifests realities by their inter-conditioning: by being different paccaya. The first paccaya is hetu-paccaya, which shows the importance of realities that are hetu. At funerals when bhikkhu intone the abhidamma, they begin with "hetu-paccayo", which are lobha-hetu, dosa-hetu, moha-hetu, alobha-hetu, adosa-hetu and amoha-hetu, to remind us that the realities that are causes for future results as future lifetimes and beings, are the six cetasika, namely lobha-cetasika, dosa-cetasika, moha-cetasika, alobha-cetasika, adosa-cetasika and panna-cetasika. Truly, each kind of reality is of its own specific importance. The Buddha not only manifested one but many paccaya. Nor did he merely manifest arammana that is paccaya for citta to arise and experience it (the arammana) as the only "arammana paccaya" for the citta. But he manifested each and every paccaya in detail for the 24 major paccaya as well as their minor paccaya. Cakkhuppasada-rupa arises because of other paccaya than the hetu- paccaya. And cakkhuppasada is, in turn, a paccaya by being the reality that is eminent: the indriya-paccaya, or being paccaya by being a reality that is predominant in its duty and function. Cakkhuppasada is cakkhundriya, the rupa which is the principal in being paccaya for cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see visual objects through the eyes. Without cakkhuppasada, sotappasada, ghanappasada, jivhappasada and kayappasada, what would this body be like? Like a log that does not see, hear, smell, taste or know bodysense contact. Therefore, the 5 pasada-rupa are paccaya by being indriya-paccaya or eminent in their specific functions such as the cakkhuppasada-rupa being predominant in coming into contact with ruparammana thus causing cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see what appears through the eyes because other rupa cannot perform this function. The object appearing through the eyes could be clear or not depending on the state, the clarity of the cakkhuppasada-rupa, which does not depend on cetana or desire or intention of anyone but on the indriya-paccaya of seeing, namely the cakkhuppasada-rupa. All realities are paccaya for other realities to arise by being diverse kinds of paccaya. (…) (There are also other places where she talks about this.) > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the > > vultures, > > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again > > i quote > > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): > > > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its > > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have > > arisen > > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause > > the > > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these > > rupas have > > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as > > seventeen moments of citta.' > > > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on > > the > > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing > > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does > > not > > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' > Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be > purejata (pre-nascence) > sahajata (conascence) > paccajata (post-nascense) > > Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be: > atthi (presence-condition) > natthi (absence-condition) > vigata (disappearance [gone]) > avigata (non-disappearance [still there]) > > Just the combination of the jata and the > presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind- > boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the > seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the > cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc... I think this is because of the parallel and unequal duration of the rupa and the nama that experience them, so that the rupa, as fast as the speed of light is (since light is also rupa), is 17 times the duration of the nama. When they start off at the same time say in a vithi process, there has to be the two extra tadarambana to make the equation. When they start of at different moments, sometimes the vithi ends up incomplete and inoperative. And because of their unequal duration, and still are conditions for one another to arise, I think that under some circumstances rupas could become both present and future paccaya for nama, since, as Nina said, they last longer, so that future rupa, born this instant, would not have fallen awan when the co-nascent citta has, and becomes future paccaya for the subsequent several citta in the process as well. (This gets even more complicated with the sub moments of the duration of both realities as well as multiplied by the meeeting of the ayatana through each dvara) And then there are 24 major paccaya and I don't remember how much of the detailed ones, in zillions of possible combinations! > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning > > later > > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... > > Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways: > 1) cause of arising > 2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???) See the 'Summary' pages above in the Thai version, > 3) both cause of arising and support Khun Sujin has told Betty we would get to study the paccaya one day, but we're still on other things at the moment, and the paccaya so detailed and complex it might take some time. The main point is that while one may never know, unless one were the Buddha, what exacty causes and conditions this moment of seeing, one knows that it has arisen from at least this or that number of major and minor paccaya, and not because one made it happen or that some god did! All this complicated conglomerations are not the self, they arise from accumulated conditions. Still it's so interesting trying to figure it out, isn't it? I really look forward to reading more! Anumodana to you both, Amara 1732 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 1:28pm Subject: Patthana commentaries Dear group, For the Patthana we have Buddhaghosa's commentary (a.t.thakathaa), Ananda's subcommentary (muula.tiikaa), and Dhammapala's subcommentary (anu.tiikaa) on the mulatika. I know of no complete English translation of any of these important commentarial works and I'm wondering if anyone here knows of any. Although I haven't done a thorough check, the Visuddhimagga, XVII.66-100 appears to contain the same text found in the commentary (a.t.thakathaa) on the summary of conditions (paccayuddeso) at the beginning of the Patthana. I have also seen information from one or more of these works included in U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Part 1 and NVG's Conditions which I have only just started to read. I estimate that the combined number of pages of the commentary & the two subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. Of these, 121 pages cover from the beginning to the end of the analytical exposition of conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly done any translating for others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to have a go at these commentaries and share the work in progress with this group for comments and suggestions. With best wishes, Jim A. 1733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 2:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Jim I'm sure there are many of us on this list who would very much appreciate a translation of the commentaries and who would also be delighted to be your sounding board for parts in progress. Any support I can give I would be pleased to. Jonothan --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear group, > > For the Patthana we have Buddhaghosa's commentary > (a.t.thakathaa), Ananda's > subcommentary (muula.tiikaa), and Dhammapala's > subcommentary (anu.tiikaa) > on the mulatika. I know of no complete English > translation of any of these > important commentarial works and I'm wondering if > anyone here knows of any. > Although I haven't done a thorough check, the > Visuddhimagga, XVII.66-100 > appears to contain the same text found in the > commentary (a.t.thakathaa) on > the summary of conditions (paccayuddeso) at the > beginning of the Patthana. I > have also seen information from one or more of these > works included in U > Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Part 1 and > NVG's Conditions which I > have only just started to read. > > I estimate that the combined number of pages of the > commentary & the two > subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. > Of these, 121 pages > cover from the beginning to the end of the > analytical exposition of > conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly > done any translating for > others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to > have a go at these > commentaries and share the work in progress with > this group for comments and > suggestions. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor 1734 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries I second Jonothonas comments, Jim. Nina van gorkom will be very interested also. In Thai, acharn Sujin, acharn santi and others have many tapes going into much detail on the patthana. But those of us who know only English are at disadvantage here. Nina reads thai(and listens) and gets some of the details but she would still much appreciate Englsih translations. We have both said that it is a pity that bhikkhu Bodhi stopped his wonderful series of commentarial translations of the suttas. these were very complete and included the attakattha and tikas. (i.e. Brahmajala sutta, mahadinana sutta, mulapariyaya sutta and sammanaphala sutta). We are so lacking in commentaries in English. You know the Patthana holds a special place in the Tipitika. It is said to be the deepest of all the Buddhas teachings and consequently the commentaries say that it will be the first part to disappear. Any work that assists us to understand the Pattahana helps to delay that dark day. Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Jim > > I'm sure there are many of us on this list who would > very much appreciate a translation of the commentaries > and who would also be delighted to be your sounding > board for parts in progress. > > Any support I can give I would be pleased to. > > Jonothan > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear > group, > > > > For the Patthana we have Buddhaghosa's commentary > > (a.t.thakathaa), Ananda's > > subcommentary (muula.tiikaa), and Dhammapala's > > subcommentary (anu.tiikaa) > > on the mulatika. I know of no complete English > > translation of any of these > > important commentarial works and I'm wondering if > > anyone here knows of any. > > Although I haven't done a thorough check, the > > Visuddhimagga, XVII.66-100 > > appears to contain the same text found in the > > commentary (a.t.thakathaa) on > > the summary of conditions (paccayuddeso) at the > > beginning of the Patthana. I > > have also seen information from one or more of these > > works included in U > > Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Part 1 and > > NVG's Conditions which I > > have only just started to read. > > > > I estimate that the combined number of pages of the > > commentary & the two > > subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. > > Of these, 121 pages > > cover from the beginning to the end of the > > analytical exposition of > > conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly > > done any translating for > > others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to > > have a go at these > > commentaries and share the work in progress with > > this group for comments and > > suggestions. > > > > With best wishes, > > Jim A. > > > > > > 1735 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 4, 2000 8:54pm Subject: Re: Patthana commentaries > I estimate that the combined number of pages of the commentary & the two > subcommentaries to be about 315 pages of Pali text. Of these, 121 pages > cover from the beginning to the end of the analytical exposition of > conditions (paccayaniddeso). Although I have hardly done any translating for > others before, I thought it might be worthwhile to have a go at these > commentaries and share the work in progress with this group for comments and > suggestions. Dear Jim, Anumodana in your great kusala endeavor and looking forward to reading it very much, Amara 1736 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 9:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Thank-you Jonothan, Robert, and Amara for showing your interest and support. I've already started to study the first part: the four introductory verses of Buddhaghosa's commentary with the two tikas (altogether about 3 pages to translate). The first word of the first verse is 'devaatidevo' (the deva of devas -- ie the Buddha) on which the two tikas have much to say but some passages are going to be difficult to translate. All I can do is just to give it a try with no guarantee of success. I'm thinking of intermingling the translation with the Pali text which will double the size of each part. I would also like to add some footnotes. I think it is going to take me some time to do just the first part. If this part succeeds then I will move on to the second part which defines the word 'Patthana' and the layout of the book. I appreciate the interest shown for the Abhidhamma by a surprising number of you in this group. I have been enjoying the lively discussions and even the humour! There is much for me to learn here from you all. I also must say I have a high regard for the work done by Khun Sujin & Nina van Gorkom and will make every effort to carefully consider what they have to say from my reading. With best wishes, Jim A. Robert wrote: >I second Jonothonas comments, Jim. Nina van gorkom will be very >interested also. In Thai, acharn Sujin, acharn santi and others >have many tapes going into much detail on the patthana. But >those of us who know only English are at disadvantage here. Nina >reads thai(and listens) and gets some of the details but she >would still much appreciate Englsih translations. We have both >said that it is a pity that bhikkhu Bodhi stopped his wonderful >series of commentarial translations of the suttas. these were >very complete and included the attakattha and tikas. (i.e. >Brahmajala sutta, mahadinana sutta, mulapariyaya sutta and >sammanaphala sutta). We are so lacking in commentaries in >English. >You know the Patthana holds a special place in the Tipitika. It >is said to be the deepest of all the Buddhas teachings and >consequently the commentaries say that it will be the first part >to disappear. Any work that assists us to understand the >Pattahana helps to delay that dark day. >Robert 1737 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Dear Jim, yes please intermingle the pali with the English. Sentence by sentence preferably. Then we can all learn a little pali as we follow your translation. And it will help nina give feedback on the translation also (she is busy but I have a feeling she will have a few comments). And the more footnotes the better I think. I have a very few copies of some print books by Sujin and Nina which I can send to you (although you have probably already downloaded them from the web)- let me know if you would like them, it is nice to read from a fully formatted book. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Thank-you Jonothan, Robert, and Amara for showing your > interest and support. > > I've already started to study the first part: the four > introductory verses > of Buddhaghosa's commentary with the two tikas (altogether > about 3 pages to > translate). The first word of the first verse is 'devaatidevo' > (the deva of > devas -- ie the Buddha) on which the two tikas have much to > say but some > passages are going to be difficult to translate. All I can do > is just to > give it a try with no guarantee of success. I'm thinking of > intermingling > the translation with the Pali text which will double the size > of each part. > I would also like to add some footnotes. I think it is going > to take me some > time to do just the first part. If this part succeeds then I > will move on to > the second part which defines the word 'Patthana' and the > layout of the > book. > > I appreciate the interest shown for the Abhidhamma by a > surprising > number of you in this group. I have been enjoying the lively > discussions and even the humour! There is much for me to learn > here from you > all. I also must say I have a high regard for the work done by > Khun Sujin & > Nina van Gorkom and will make every effort to carefully > consider what they > have to say from my reading. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > 1738 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 3:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Jim This is very exciting! But we must also be reaslistic and not expect to produce too much too soon. In Bangkok, they have a dedicatd group doing translation work, and progress is slow but steady. As we know, it requires considerable understanding as well as pali skills to get the right translation. So by all means take your time and do a complete job, one that will be worthy of publication when finished (and BTW, printing and publication can be arranged so be assured that your work will be made available to a wide audience). I endorse Robert's remarks on the way to proceed. Jonothan --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Thank-you Jonothan, Robert, and Amara for showing > your interest and support. > > I've already started to study the first part: the > four introductory verses > of Buddhaghosa's commentary with the two tikas > (altogether about 3 pages to > translate). The first word of the first verse is > 'devaatidevo' (the deva of > devas -- ie the Buddha) on which the two tikas have > much to say but some > passages are going to be difficult to translate. All > I can do is just to > give it a try with no guarantee of success. I'm > thinking of intermingling > the translation with the Pali text which will double > the size of each part. > I would also like to add some footnotes. I think it > is going to take me some > time to do just the first part. If this part > succeeds then I will move on to > the second part which defines the word 'Patthana' > and the layout of the > book. > > I appreciate the interest shown for the Abhidhamma > by a surprising > number of you in this group. I have been enjoying > the lively > discussions and even the humour! There is much for > me to learn here from you > all. I also must say I have a high regard for the > work done by Khun Sujin & > Nina van Gorkom and will make every effort to > carefully consider what they > have to say from my reading. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. 1739 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 5:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Jim, you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! >From: "Jim Anderson" > > >Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's a bit more >on >where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a wooded lot about >25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times a year to >stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk for about two >weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a hermit. we can also see we don't need to be a monk to live alone in the forest if that is what we prefer or find most beneficial for our studies and practice! For about a >20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a few Buddhist >teachers and groups at various locations. > >I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting I attended in >Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a monk on tape. >In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali >and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a member of the Pali >Text Society and started buying books directly from them for my collection >of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had most of the >available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian edition of the >Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on my own. I did >seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the University of >Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that never came about, >although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D student of his >for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from Yangon. When >I >heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized (he still had >the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him to teach me >Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was getting myself >into! >He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available to teach me >for >about another five years when he expected to be finished his studies. As it >turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge responsibility of >bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs here. I felt it >was just too much for me to handle financially and psychologically. After >it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 where I have >continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation until this >day. This is all v.interesting....yes, it might have turned out to be quite a burden to support the Burmese monk on your own... When I first turned up at the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't realised it was her personal address I had! btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! > >Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. >I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It >still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in >Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done >some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 >paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas 9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) I'm >sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a support for >studying >the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the discussions. I >will make every effort to share with you whatever I have learned that I >think might be helpful. > >With best wishes, >Jim A. Many thanks Jim, you're very welcome here! Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! I look forward to hearing more from you, Sarah > > > 1740 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 5:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Mike & Gayan, yes, I'm also finding many helpful home truths in these, but Mike pls elaborate on yr comments on sapitika tanha which obviously struck a note....pls give some examples. Sarah >From: "m. nease" >Dear Gayan, > >Another good one--I particularly noted the term, >'sapitika tanha'--one to watch out for. This one can >send you in circles like a dog, chasing it's own tail, >for, well--aeons? I know... > >Thanks again, > >Mike >--- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo > > vangceti. > > > > 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in > > the noble order. This > > is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. > > But it is not allowed for a monk to give to > > laypeople other than the gifts > > of the dhamma( dhammadanas). > > Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the > > commodities received as > > alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with > > monks , they will more > > and more aims in return) > > But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the > > laypeple please by > > giving material gifts and worldly gifts is > > samvibhaga seelatha, but its > > miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) > > In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and > > entertain a liking and > > friendship with the monk, but the point is this type > > of particular dhammas > > can be associated with even a thief/criminal who > > helps them, does > > favourable things for them. > > This may appear to build confidence in the lay > > followers' minds but its is > > a type of tanha associated with piti. > > (sapitika tanha). > > As always the idea here is to distinguish between > > the kusala ad the > > akusala. > > No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is > > detected. > > > > 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata > > vangceti > > > > The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up > > with the unsuitable, > > unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay > > followers is unsuitable. > > Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( > > the 32, ie..rajakata, > > corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga > > viharata is a quality that > > should be developed by monks/yogins. > > > > the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything > > for, ignoring the lay > > followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not > > gifting with dhamma > > etc. > > So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the > > asamsaggaviharata. > > This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the > > yogins who have gone > > forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in > > observing the holylife. > > So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. > > > > > > contd. > > > > > > > > 1742 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Nov 5, 2000 11:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome Jim ! Dear Jim and friends, I must say that when I've read that Robert has invited Jim to share with us his profound knowledge I felt myself very happy. I'm for more than a year one of the 'big luckers' (sp?) of the Dhamma-L and I have a folder with many of the Jim's posts. As a recent student of the Abhidhamma I know that I can not understand fully some of your posts but it seems to me that Jim will be a great stimulus to all of you, more advanced in Dhamma. Also, it will be nice to listen your discussions and a great learning opportunity to me. As I' ve understood that Jim's intention in translating some important Dhamma material is a lovable and important matter, I would like to colaborate with this project. Only let me know how .... A BIG welcome to you Jim 'Pali' Anderson :-) ... and once more, Thank you, Robert ! Metta Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! > Dear Jim, > > you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply > promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks > for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very > different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! > > >From: "Jim Anderson" > > > > > >Thanks for your welcome note and it's nice to meet you! Here's a bit more > >on > >where I'm based. I live on my own in a small cottage on a wooded lot about > >25 miles from a small city (Orillia) which I visit three times a year to > >stock up on supplies and groceries and to be with my kinfolk for about two > >weeks at a time. You could say I'm living the life of a hermit. > > we can also see we don't need to be a monk to live alone in the forest if > that is what we prefer or find most beneficial for our studies and practice! > > For about a > >20 year period ending in 1992, I was fairly involved with a few Buddhist > >teachers and groups at various locations. > > > >I think my interest in Pali was sparked at a Buddhist meeting I attended in > >Edinburgh in 1973 where I first heard Pali being chanted by a monk on tape. > >In early 1976, I bought a second-hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali > >and began to study it. I think it was in 1978 I became a member of the Pali > >Text Society and started buying books directly from them for my collection > >of Pali texts and translations which kept growing until I had most of the > >available books listed in their catalogue plus the Indian edition of the > >Tipitaka. Most of the Pali I have learnt has been acquired on my own. I did > >seek out Pali teachers and even met Prof. Warder at the University of > >Toronto and made some effort to study under him. But that never came about, > >although I did manage to study Pali under a Sinhalese Ph.D student of his > >for a short while in 1980. In 1982, I met a Burmese monk from Yangon. When > >I > >heard from others that he had most of the Tipitaka memorized (he still had > >the Yamaka and Patthana to do), I got so excited I invited him to teach me > >Pali and the Tipitaka without really knowing what I was getting myself > >into! > >He readily accepted my invitation but would not be available to teach me > >for > >about another five years when he expected to be finished his studies. As it > >turned out, I was not at all prepared to take on the huge responsibility of > >bringing him over from Myanmar and looking after his needs here. I felt it > >was just too much for me to handle financially and psychologically. After > >it all fell through, I went on to purchase a cottage in 1988 where I have > >continued to pursue my interest in dhamma-study and meditation until this > >day. > > This is all v.interesting....yes, it might have turned out to be quite a > burden to support the Burmese monk on your own... When I first turned up at > the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's > sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't > realised it was her personal address I had! > > btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and > meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What > kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? > Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! > > > >Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. > >I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It > >still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in > >Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done > >some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 > >paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. > > Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas > 9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) > > I'm > >sure this study group will be a constant stimulus and a support for > >studying > >the abhidhamma and I look forward to participating in the discussions. I > >will make every effort to share with you whatever I have learned that I > >think might be helpful. > > > >With best wishes, > >Jim A. > > Many thanks Jim, you're very welcome here! > > Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the > Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. > joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll > be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if > needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar > as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this > will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and > I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! > > I look forward to hearing more from you, > Sarah 1743 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 5:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Alex & Betty, >From: "A T" >Dear Betty, > > Thank you for your wisdom in this post. As I said before, I just knew >Buddhism recently. Therefore, my association with monks are very limited. >:-((( > > You are so correct in saying: > >Corrupt monks <----> corrupt population; each is a reflection of the > > >other. I also agree with Betty's wise observation above. Alex, it's hard for me to imagine that you have only recently studied Buddhism as you seem to have appreciated the important aspects (especially the anattaness of realities) very quickly. How did you become interested in Buddhism or were you brought up as a Buddhist as you mentioned you speak Vietnamese I think? Where is your contact with monks? Sarah btw the monk I first mentioned who was reported going to Karaoke for 'spiritual discussions' was not the same one as the one who dressed up as the general and got greater publicity. I'm also glad to report that when I met A.Cha in London at a temple for quite a long visit (also back in the 70s), he definitely wasn't smoking there, so I tend to agree with Mike & Robert that it was probably a 'cultural' habit common to the Thai monks in the forest.... 1744 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 1:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Jim, By now, most of our "big shots" :-))) people in the group already voiced their welcome, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome you, too. I'm looking forward to learn a lot from you. This group is really a Dhamma Study Group. What a very appropriate name! Anumodana, Alex Tran 1745 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 1:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike & Gayan, > > yes, I'm also finding many helpful home truths in > these, but Mike pls > elaborate on yr comments on sapitika tanha which > obviously struck a > note....pls give some examples. If I haven't misunderstood Gayan: > > a type of tanha associated with piti. > > (sapitika tanha). With some practice, it isn't difficult (at times, at least) to condition the arising of piti by means of samatha meditation. Naturally, being a pleasant state, lobha arises with regard to it, particularly if it is not understood or is misunderstood (e.g. as sammasamadhi of the eightfold path). By chasing one's tail, I meant the habitual desire for the re-arising of that state in meditation and the resultant prevention of the arising of real understanding. As you said recently, nobody's complaining about the lobha! Ain't it the truth... 1746 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 4:06am Subject: New article and newsletter Dear friends, Finally finished the translation of 'Kamma', now in the intermediate section of and a newsletter about our champion transcriber, at her 84th birthday celebration!(in Newsletter 8.) Enjoy! Amara 1747 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 6:57am Subject: On Kamma Dear Amara and friends, Thank you, Amara for the Dhamma gift. I would like to share with the group one more text on kamma - "Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching" whose author is one of the most important Thailand's Buddhist scholar, Venerable P. A. Payutto's http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/kamma.htm Metta, Leonardo > Dear friends, > > Finally finished the translation of 'Kamma', now in the intermediate > section of and a newsletter about our > champion transcriber, at her 84th birthday celebration!(in > Newsletter 8.) > > Enjoy! > > Amara > > > 1748 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 10:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Hi Robert and all, From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000 9:41 PM EST >Dear Jim, >yes please intermingle the pali with the English. Sentence by >sentence preferably. Then we can all learn a little pali as we >follow your translation. And it will help nina give feedback on >the translation also (she is busy but I have a feeling she will >have a few comments). And the more footnotes the better I think. >I have a very few copies of some print books by Sujin and Nina >which I can send to you (although you have probably already >downloaded them from the web)- let me know if you would like >them, it is nice to read from a fully formatted book. >Robert Thank-you for your goodwill gesture. I have downloaded two of the books, and a chapter from AIDL. I find the etexts quite okay, but if it's really no bother for you, then go ahead -- I won't mind having some hardcopies around. Address: 239 Forest Harbour Pkwy., RR 2, Waubaushene, ON L0K 2C0 Canada I'm glad that you like the idea of intermingling the translation with the Pali, and yes, I'm breaking up the text into small portions (typically, a sentence or two). I'm sure the group can offer some further suggestions on improving the page layout once I start submitting portions. It'll take some experimenting and feedback to come up with the right layout for a translation intermingled with three layers of commentaries plus the footnotes! If it is in the interest of the group, this could very easily become a group translation project as I'm sure many of you will have valuable comments and suggestions to offer that will help steer the translation in the right direction. I'm by no means an experienced Pali translator and so the translations that I will submit will likely be in a somewhat rough state which others with more talent could then help shape and refine into something more beautiful and clearer. Once a part is finished, it could then go up on a webpage (I have 5MB available) for downloads and continue to be open for revisions. All contributors will be duly acknowledged. I printed out the three pages of the Pali text today and started to translate (in my mind) what I thought was going to be a really difficult passage but it turned out to be not as bad as I first thought and it appears that any obscurities found in the text can be cleared up for the most part. Btw, the tikas have some interesting things to say about devas -- which I didn't know about before (coming soon!). With best wishes, Jim A. P.S. Thanks Leonardo and Alex for your welcomes. I will try to respond to your messages tomorrow. I'm another slow responder like Sarah. 1749 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 2:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again Dear Sarah and friends, >Alex, it's hard for me to imagine that you have only recently studied >Buddhism as you seem to have appreciated the important aspects (especially >the anattaness of realities) very quickly. As we all agree that there's no "I", therefore, it's kind of difficult to talk about myself. :-))) I was brought up in Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confuciusism (spelling?) are parts of our culture. I heard of the concept anicca, dukkha, and anatta since I was very young. Therefore, I guess, it's easier for me to understand what we are discussing about. >How did you become interested in >Buddhism or were you brought up as a Buddhist as you mentioned you speak >Vietnamese I think? I was brought up in the Mahayana Buddhist background. In fact, most Vietnamese have the Mahayana bacground. However, I was not very serious in practicing Buddhism. It's just something you were born into. Then, I got interested in meditation. I was exposed more to Taoism, and Hinduism. At one time, I seriously considered translating the Gita into Vietnamese. Finally, I got in touch with Theravada Buddhism through the help of a Vietnamese monk. From then on, I study only Theravada Buddhism. Now, I even teach a Sunday class for the young children at my temple. I just came back from that class today. :-))) It's really fun to teach them. I emphasized a lot of right and wrong views. Recently, I'm teaching them words from the Buddha, mostly from Dhammapada. My philosophy is to give them a seed, so that later on it may become one of the conditions for them to study Dhamma more. Do you have any idea how I can teach them the "Summary" by A. Sujin? I don't want to overwhelm them. At the same time, I have a lot to learn, too. >Where is your contact with monks? They are from the Vietnamese temples. Most of my monks studied in Thailand. One studied in India for awhile. My Abhidhamma teacher stayed in Thailand most of his life. His Thai is just as good as any Thai. He's the one who knows Ajaan Sujin. Locally, we have a temple very close to my home, another one about 25 miles from where I live, and the third one about 40 miles away. I go to the one close to me at least once a week. >Sarah Anumodanna, Alex Tran 1750 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:49am Subject: Re: On Kamma > I would like to share with the group one more text on kamma - "Good, Evil and > Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching" whose author is one of the most important > Thailand's Buddhist scholar, Venerable P. A. Payutto's > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/kamma.htm Dear Leonardo, Thank you for your gift as well, will look it up right away! Perhaps you can compare the two and give us your opinion? Anumodana, Amara 1751 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 0:00pm Subject: Re: Patthana commentaries Dear Jim, I am a Pali illiterate myself but I have friends whom I regard as excellent at it who might be able to help, in any case we would certainly enjoy tracing your endeavors in this linguistic and kusala adventure through your work in progress. By the way please look for my private note off-list, Amara 1752 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 0:27pm Subject: Vancaka Dear Gayan, I am sorry I know nothing of Singhalese at all (does it resemble Pali in any way? is some of it derived from the Pali?), and don't think anyone else on the list does, to help you with your translations, but you are doing so well by yourself. I hope you find the time to finish the list, I have been following it with interest and look forward to the rest of it. Anumodana in your kusala in sharing with us, Amara 1753 From: protectID Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 1:32pm Subject: Re: colour/sound Dear Alex, Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a little while to consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it can be. As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely will remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and cetasikas arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience it as taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of how things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. As taught by Tan A. Sujin (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through the six dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as poramatha aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- vithi process. It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi processes, before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara-javana vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha aramana doesn't become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes "sharper": the cittas process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" mind. The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there. The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, we need to do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel something hard, we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa aggregate (shape, name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is instantaneous. This is true with what I observe about myself anyway. The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. Seeing makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. I hope this adds some value to the discussion. kom --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest. :-((( > > Alex > ========== > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) > > > >Dear Friends, > > > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or > >sharper. > >It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are > >many > >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of > > > >the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and > >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as what > > > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > > > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This > >is > >because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say > >what > >we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as > >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going > >anywhere, > >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there > >is no > >person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being > >there. > >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object > >and make > >it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. > > > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you > >immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of > >voice > >recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, > >it is just > >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding > >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words > >that > >we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as > >self, > >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there > >is > >never such a person there regardless. > > > >kom 1754 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear kom, One of the clearest descriptions I have read. Excellent. One point to look at. You wrote: > > The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, > we need to > do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel > something hard, > we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa > aggregate (shape, > name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is > instantaneous. > This is true with what I observe about myself anyway In fact we do form concepts just as much from all the senses as from the the eye door. It may not be worked out as clearly as with the eyedoor but there is inevitably an idea of "something" there - except at the times when satipatthana is being developed. Meditators often focus on the body and feel the rupas there. They think that they are experiencing rupas directly without the idea of self. But even the idea of subatomic kalapas vibrating is a concept - a whole, a thing. It can delude us just as much as when we see a "person'. It can even delude us more if we think that we are having satipatthana when in fact we are still actually clinging to concept (albeit a very hidden type of concept) Robert. --- protectID wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a > little while to > consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it > can be. > As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely > will > remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and > cetasikas > arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience > it as > taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of > how > things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. > > As taught by Tan A. Sujin > (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- > 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through > the six > dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and > mano- > dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as > poramatha > aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, > it is also > experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the > mano-dvara-javana- > vithi process. > > It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi > (3) cittas start > experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier > cittas > experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas > at this > point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not > rise, it does not > fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never > exist. > > According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi > processes, > before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of > (1), and (2) > processes already taken place repeatedly. By this > description, we can > deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of > cittas) to > condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must > take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and > mano-dvara-javana > vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the > citta to > start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a > concept. > > The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), > experiencing > the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may > just see an > unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and > then we may > attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of > taking > poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, > namable > concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on > to. > > Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha aramana > doesn't > become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and > falls away > virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes "sharper": the > cittas > process the aramana object so it become identifiable and > namable, and > hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in > "our" > mind. > > The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, > seeing > without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts > of people, > animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an > object that we > see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and > unchanging. It is > so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer > there. By > the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no > longer > there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no > longer there. > > The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, > we need to > do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel > something hard, > we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa > aggregate (shape, > name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is > instantaneous. > This is true with what I observe about myself anyway. > > The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. > Seeing > makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. > > I hope this adds some value to the discussion. > > kom > --- "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > This is very difficult for me to understand and to > digest. :-((( > > > > Alex > > ========== 1755 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana Dear Kom, Amara & friends, Before I start attempting to go into details raised in Kom's post, I'd like to thank Amara for posting the useful section from Summary (helpful discussion on the importance of hetu as no 1.) and I'd like to remind us all about why we study paccaya (conditions) as expounded in the Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I'm quoting here from U Narada's Guide to Patthana: 'In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed (sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta...' We study conditions to understand more about the nature of anatta of realities appearing at this moment..... Conditions are extremely complex and it's no wonder we struggle to understand them even a little. according to U Narada, although there are only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,323 patthana sections under them! No need to say more! hopefully we'll all be a LITTLE wiser after we've worked with jim on his translations of the commentaries! >From: Kom Tukovinit > >Dear Sarah, > > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > > This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata > > niss.) > > above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence > > (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not > > pure > > prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent > > mental > > aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning > > > > states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.' > > > > It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time. > >Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how >the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for >confusion are the followings: >1) When discussing pacaya, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and the >conditioned dhamma (paccayapanna dhamma) can be pinned down from both >time and type. For example, phassa arising now is an ahara pacaya for >the citta arising at the same time. >2) This doesn't seem to be true to the 4th classification: I can't >think of any pacaya dhamma than can be both sahajata (rupa nama being >pacaya to rupa nama) and purejata (rupa being pacaya to nama) at the >same time. >3) Dhammas that can be Vathupurejata pacaya to nama are the base >objects, but only the heartbase can be sahajata to the patisandhi >nama. However, the heartbase can't be both sahajata and Vathupurejata >pacaya to the same nama at the same time: it can be sahajata to >patisandhi namas, and then Vathupurejata for different sets of nama >arising after it. >4) What I understand from your conclusion is that this particular >condition MUST have multiple dhammas contributing as pacayas. >5) This is certainly different from the explanations of other pacayas >as the explanations follow rule 1) above. >6) I think the other classifications of nissaya (sahajata, >vathupurejata, vatharamanapurejata) have already covered the condition >explained in sahajata-vathupurejata missaka. >7) Possibly, this is the reason why other sources don't discuss these >4th classification. >8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!! > Just to repeat for others valiantly following this discussion, sahajata purejatamissaka paccaya (Mixed conascence-prenascence condition)....is again a combination of sahajata nissaya (conascence dependence) & vatthupurejata nissaya (base prenascence-dependence). U Narada says this condition is listed in the Classification chapter of the Investigation Chapter but not in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions.... this may explain a little of the confusion! I mentioned above that as base is inc., it is not pure shajata niss. and since cetasikas and citta are inc. (in paccaya) it is not pure vatthupurejata niss. Yr point 4. is correct- yes, multiple dhammas contributing as pacc. e.g. eyebase (alr arisen) & cetasikas as paccaya for cakkhu vinn. (seeing consc.) & other cetasikas...So yr point 1. re time & type is pinned down I think. You mention that this condition (or sub condition ) is alr. covered in yr point 6. above, but I think some of the sub-categories and mixed conditions (and there are several other mixed conditions,eg under atthi paccaya, there are 3 mixed conditions at the end of the other categories) are to help us understand the ways the conditions combine together to bring a paccayapanna dhamma (conditioned reality). Just as namas are sometimes considered as cittas and cetasikas and sometimes as 4 khandhas etc, so perhaps (some guess work going on here) conditions are considered in different ways to help us understand more about realities and anatta as discussed at the beginning. I don't think this area of mixed conditions is very important in itself (esp. when we understand so little about the main 24 categories) but it's a useful condition (!- which ones Kom?) to study more, consider more and check the understanding of realities at this moment. Pls help correct any mistakes I've made! > > > > > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the > > vultures, > > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again > > i quote > > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!): > > > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its > > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have > > arisen > > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause > > the > > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these > > rupas have > > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as > > seventeen moments of citta.' > > > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on > > the > > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing > > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does > > not > > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....' >Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be >purejata (pre-nascence) >sahajata (conascence) >paccajata (post-nascense) > >Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be: >atthi (presence-condition) >natthi (absence-condition) >vigata (disappearance [gone]) >avigata (non-disappearance [still there]) > an interesting example of these pairs working together at the same time! >Just the combination of the jata and the >presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind- >boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the >seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the > cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc... > helps to understand why the present reality has to be just this one and not any other one because of the intricacy of conditions at work.. > > > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning > > later > > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen.... > >Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways: >1) cause of arising >2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???) >3) both cause of arising and support > for once the English is ahead of the Thai! > Thanks Kom and do keep challenging me!! Sarah 1756 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 0:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert & Shin, I've read and considered the correspondence below and I'm not sure that I agree with your comments on Kom's and Betty's posts...! Firstly when we say that seeing sees visible object or we say seeing sees colour or we say seeing sees 3D, there can be understanding or no understanding or something hazy in between when we say it. For example, if we say seeing sees color, it's very easy for someone to have an idea of a flat board of colours in front of the eyes which are seen and then interpreted into what is actually seen or what we think is actually seen. So it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D with the wrong view of experiencing something other than that which is experienced already. Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any understanding. Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry. As Kom went on to say (below), the ideas of shape, form, object and anything else (yes colours, depth, whatever) are all pannatti. There have to be many, many moments of understanding of seeing (as a nama) and visible object/colour (as a rupa) to understand them clearly. it is not easy, but essential to understand this area. When we have the idea that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if there really is clear understanding of the realities through them or whether it just seems like that. Sarah p.s. Amara, many thanks for your helpful post from Summary on namarupapaparricheda nana- so much excellent detail. Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the discussion we were having about accumulations. I quote: '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the mano dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and rupa dhamma would appear as arammana.'.. p.p.s I've just noticed that Kom has posted again on this subject but I haven't read his latest thoughts....sorry Kom & friends, this was so slow! >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Dear Shin, >You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our >understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to >what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible >object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is only >at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference >between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there >must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the >specific charcteristics) of dhammas. >Robert >--- shinlin wrote: > Dear M.Betty, > > No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the > > mind door, the 3D > > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it > > is pannati > > already. > > with metta, > > Shin > > > 1757 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 4:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sarah, Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another concept of depth (no depth). I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other doors are easier? You said "When we > have the idea > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > there really is > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether > it just seems > like that." > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert & Shin, > > I've read and considered the correspondence below and I'm not > sure that I > agree with your comments on Kom's and Betty's posts...! > > Firstly when we say that seeing sees visible object or we say > seeing sees > colour or we say seeing sees 3D, there can be understanding or > no > understanding or something hazy in between when we say it. For > example, if > we say seeing sees color, it's very easy for someone to have > an idea of a > flat board of colours in front of the eyes which are seen and > then > interpreted into what is actually seen or what we think is > actually seen. So > it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D > with the wrong > view of experiencing something other than that which is > experienced already. > Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any > understanding. > Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry. As Kom went > on to say > (below), the ideas of shape, form, object and anything else > (yes colours, > depth, whatever) are all pannatti. There have to be many, many > moments of > understanding of seeing (as a nama) and visible object/colour > (as a rupa) to > understand them clearly. > > it is not easy, but essential to understand this area. When we > have the idea > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > there really is > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether > it just seems > like that. > > > Sarah > > p.s. Amara, many thanks for your helpful post from Summary on > namarupapaparricheda nana- so much excellent detail. > Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the > discussion we were > having about accumulations. I quote: > > '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can > be no > knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly > realizes the > characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the > mano dvara would > arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and > rupa dhamma > would appear as arammana.'.. > > p.p.s I've just noticed that Kom has posted again on this > subject but I > haven't read his latest thoughts....sorry Kom & friends, this > was so slow! > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > >Dear Shin, > >You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our > >understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- > to > >what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible > >object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is > only > >at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference > >between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there > >must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana > (the > >specific charcteristics) of dhammas. > >Robert 1758 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana > Conditions are extremely complex and it's no wonder we struggle to > understand them even a little. according to U Narada, although there are > only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,323 patthana sections under > them! No need to say more! hopefully we'll all be a LITTLE wiser after we've > worked with jim on his translations of the commentaries! Dear Sarah, I was about to start translating the booklet Kom mentioned, when I came across Khun Sujin's 'Summary of Paccaya', a 70 odd page booklet that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So I'l translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it is finished. Amara 1759 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 8:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Kom, >Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a little while to >consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it can be. Anumodana for your time and effort. Thank you. >As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely will >remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and cetasikas >arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience it as >taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of how >things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. Yes, I understand. Samma ditthi is THE must before anything else. >As taught by Tan A. Sujin (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- >8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through the six >dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- >dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as poramatha >aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also >experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- >vithi process. So far, so good. I understand. >It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas >start >experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas >experiencing the poratha aramana. Yes, I see what you mean. >The aramana for the cittas at this >point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does >not >fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. I understand that this is the way we explain the world according to nama and rupa. However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree in front of my house does not exist. This is really the question I'm confused about. >According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi processes, >before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) >processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can >deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to >condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must >take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara-javana >vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to >start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. I got this. >The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing >the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an >unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may >attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking >poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable >concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. Yes. I see. However, the tree has its own life. It was a seed when I planted a few years ago. Afterwards, I could see that it gradually grows into a big tree. And it is a big tree right there, right now. Thank you, Kom. I understand what you are saying, but somehow, there exists a huge block preventing me from truly understanding the way it should be. It's wonderful if I can remove that block. I feel that once it's removed, my understanding of Abhidhamma and other important concepts such as "Emptiness" for example will be at a deeper level. >The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. I see that I still have a huge SELF carried around me. >kom Thank you, Kom. Anumodana, Alex Tran 1760 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 8:59pm Subject: Re: Clinging To Concept [was:colour/sound] Dear Robert, >Meditators often focus on the body and feel the rupas there. >They think that they are experiencing rupas directly without the >idea of self. But even the idea of subatomic kalapas vibrating >is a concept - a whole, a thing. It can delude us just as much >as when we see a "person'. It can even delude us more if we >think that we are having satipatthana when in fact we are still >actually clinging to concept (albeit a very hidden type of >concept) >Robert. How true! Clinging to concept is very difficult to eradicate. Alex 1761 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > >Dear sarah, >Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or >sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- >does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of >colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another >concept of depth (no depth). >I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other >doors are easier? You said "When we > > have the idea > > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > > there really is > > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether > > it just seems > > like that." > > Firstly, I did not mean to suggest that you or Shin had indicated that the other sense doors are easier. I know you don't have any idea of other doors being easier! what I meant was that it is a common idea that sounds are easier to understand or that bodily sensations are easier to know. What I was questioning was the rebuttal or objection made to Kom's and Betty's posts. I agree that the concept of depth and I would say also the concepts of colours come in after the vannayatana/rupayatana is experienced. That's why I like to think of it as just that which is seen or visible object but I really think it depends on the understanding when we say seeing sees visible object or colour. Both Kom and I stressed that any ideas of shape, form, object and anything else (colours, depth) are all pannatti. I may add more later, but I'm posting this quickly for a change as I don't want you to think you are being misquoted! Thanks for your comments, Robert. Sarah 1762 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana Dear Amara, Great idea!! "a 70 odd page > booklet > that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So > I'l > translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it > is > finished. " The way you say this it sounds like it is just a casual matter - the idea of translating a 70 page book makes me shiver. So much work! Kusala Chanda is (probably) dominant when you say this (just referring to the discusion I had with gayan), later viriya may be dominant during the translation (and sometimes vimamsa etc). Dear saran and kom, i have been trying to follow all your letters on paccaya but haven't got time right now to properly do so. It is still encouraging to see you doing all this. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Conditions are extremely complex and it's no wonder we > struggle to > > understand them even a little. according to U Narada, > although there > are > > only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,323 patthana > sections > under > > them! No need to say more! hopefully we'll all be a LITTLE > wiser > after we've > > worked with jim on his translations of the commentaries! > > > Dear Sarah, > > I was about to start translating the booklet Kom mentioned, > when I > came across Khun Sujin's 'Summary of Paccaya', a 70 odd page > booklet > that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So > I'l > translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it > is > finished. > > Amara > > 1763 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sarah, thanks for the comments. I didn't say too much in my earlier post as I wanted to be clear on your points. Now that I am I will add a little. I liked very much your important reminder that: > it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D > with the wrong > view of experiencing something other than that which is > experienced already. > Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any > understanding. > Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry" Yes i think some might imagine that if understanding develops visible object suddenly changes into a blurry mass of psychedelic colors (or anyway something unusual or special). And i certainly agree with all your other points. Just one note:I was actually only referring to shins last letter to betty not any of her earlier letters to Kom.(I should have deleted the earlier sections when I replied.) i had read Koms letter earlier and thought it was great. could you go into more detail about your refernce to accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > >Dear sarah, > >Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or > >sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different > colours- > >does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes > of > >colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another > >concept of depth (no depth). > >I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the > other > >doors are easier? You said "When we > > > have the idea > > > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if > > > there really is > > > clear understanding of the realities through them or > whether > > > it just seems > > > like that." > > > > > Firstly, I did not mean to suggest that you or Shin had > indicated that the > other sense doors are easier. I know you don't have any idea > of other doors > being easier! > > what I meant was that it is a common idea that sounds are > easier to > understand or that bodily sensations are easier to know. > > What I was questioning was the rebuttal or objection made to > Kom's and > Betty's posts. I agree that the concept of depth and I would > say also the > concepts of colours come in after the vannayatana/rupayatana > is experienced. > That's why I like to think of it as just that which is seen or > visible > object but I really think it depends on the understanding when > we say seeing > sees visible object or colour. Both Kom and I stressed that > any ideas of > shape, form, object and anything else (colours, depth) are all > pannatti. > > I may add more later, but I'm posting this quickly for a > change as I don't > want you to think you are being misquoted! Thanks for your > comments, Robert. > > Sarah > > > 1764 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Smoking (was Karaoke again Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > >Nothing much to do for now in Osaka (choice of a karaoke, movie >or noisy bar later tonight) so I will benefit the local economy >by paying their steep internet charges. >I was suprised to hear that a famous monk, Achaan cha used to >smoke. It is not specifically banned in the Vinaya, thus >technically one can get around it, but definitely goes against >the spirit, for the reasons Amara so ably explained. I read once >that his teacher Acharn Mun was also a smoker so I guess it was >part of the scence in the old days. You dont see many monks >smoking now. As I mentioned, I didn't see him smoling in the temple in London..! >On the question of laypeople smoking. I think leave this up to >conditions. It is not breaking any of the 5precepts - it is >simply an unheathy habit. It wont hinder one studying >abhidhamma. Sometimes it even helps people concentrate - much as >having a coke or coffee can at times. For some of us it is very >easy to drop such bad habits, for others very hard. I think we >should not put much pressure on smokers, as other things are >more important. Yes, don't we all have unhealthy habits? My mother smokes but she exercises a lot by walking and gardening every day and never eats junk foods.... I liked this reminder about other things being more impoortant because I do nag her about the smoking sometimes... >Going broader now, and looking at lifestyles. Some cannot even >keep the 5 precepts. there was a monk in the Buddhas time who >couldnt cope with the severity of living a monks life so he went >back to being a layman. Took to drink in a major way and in no >long time was an alcoholic. He remained so until the very day he >died - his last breath smelled of alcohol, it is said. when the >monks asked the Buddha where he was reborn - expecting to be >told in hell or as an animal- they were shocked when the Buddha >said he was now in the deva realm and had attained sotapanna at >the time of his death. The Buddha expalined that he had great >confidence in Dhamma, still listened to Dhamma whenever he >could, and had accumulated the conditions for deep wisdom. This >is an unusual case but it shows us the great power of Dhamma. Would you or Gayan give me a reference to this story of Sarakani the Sakyan sometime. It is very interesting. This is a good example of sila not being a strong foundation first before wisdom develops. Again we see different accumulations. My father died as an alcoholic and lost everything - his status, his wealth, his family. But he never told a lie (as far as I know) or stole, for example. He was scrupulously honest and considered a lot but was an example of someone who hated to be 'preached' at! > >One of the people I admire most in Thailand (apart from the >obvious ones) is a pig farmer. He is a student of Khun Thanit. >As I mentioned on another post Khun Thanit really hammers home >the teachings on sila. It is quite usual for one of his talks to >give a detail or two about the terrors of the hell realms and >how breaking sila is one way to get there. This mans livelihood >is involved in growing pigs and butchering them - a very severe >break in sila. However he cannot easily give up his business. It >is not so easy to change profession in Thailand if you are a >normal working man. But he is interested in Abhidhamma and >convinced by the teachings. This is kusala of a very high level. >The akusala of killing will bring its results sooner or later >but so too the kusala of listening and considering will bring >its profound results. he knows this and continues to listen - >many in his position would rather not hear about such matters >and so lose the chance to accumulate any wisdom. >Robert > Yes, better to listen with our foibles and addictions than not! Some good points, thanks Robert. Sarah 1765 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI Dear Mike, >From: "m. nease" >Dear Sarah, > >If I haven't misunderstood Gayan: > > > > a type of tanha associated with piti. > > > (sapitika tanha). > >With some practice, it isn't difficult (at times, at >least) to condition the arising of piti by means of >samatha meditation. Naturally, being a pleasant >state, lobha arises with regard to it, particularly if >it is not understood or is misunderstood (e.g. as >sammasamadhi of the eightfold path). By chasing one's >tail, I meant the habitual desire for the re-arising >of that state in meditation and the resultant >prevention of the arising of real understanding. As >you said recently, nobody's complaining about the >lobha! Ain't it the truth... > No, I don't think you've misunderstood Gayan and this is a good example. It may be piti (kusala) or it may be lobha (akusala) be experienced but in either case lobha arises with regard to it. If it is piti in samatha practice, one can be so attached to it that it becomes easy to follow the wrong path.... and as you say the prevention of the arising of real understanding... Thanks also for your reminder in another post about being aware of dosa as object rather than a story of monks and respect.... Sarah 1766 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Clinging To Concept [was:colour/sound] That is why the middle path is truly so difficult. Even if we do manage to understand it correctly it still takes so very, very long to fully penetrate. Patience in this matter is a basis for other kusala. Anyway it is not impossible - countless beings have developed it correctly. Every little bit of understanding is a drop in the pool of wisdom. We can be very happy when we start to realise how hard this path is - because that is the truth. Much better than the happiness that comes from thinking nibbana can be quickly got- because that is false. Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >Meditators often focus on the body and feel the rupas there. > >They think that they are experiencing rupas directly without > the > >idea of self. But even the idea of subatomic kalapas > vibrating > >is a concept - a whole, a thing. It can delude us just as > much > >as when we see a "person'. It can even delude us more if we > >think that we are having satipatthana when in fact we are > still > >actually clinging to concept (albeit a very hidden type of > >concept) > >Robert. > > How true! Clinging to concept is very difficult to > eradicate. > > Alex > > 1767 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Robert, sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been pretty busy here in between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the week when i get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of the order or what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround and sometimes the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly they are not coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT score! Bedtime. S. > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) >Robert > > 1768 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound dear alex, Wasn't Kom's answer great! I will but in and try to help with your questions (I hope Kom will add too). --- . > > Yes, I understand. Samma ditthi is THE must before > anything else. You have picked up so many vital points in such a short time Alex. > > I understand that this is the way we explain the world > according to nama > and rupa. > > However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree > in front of my > house does not exist. This is really the question I'm > confused about. Rupas do exist - for an infintely short moment and then they fall away. However, while the conditions keep arising new rupas keep replacing the old ones. These new ones are conditioned by similar conditions thus they may look almost the same. Hence you look at the tree and you can't see any change (although if you look after a long time you would)- the rapidity with which it is all happening makes it seem permanent. Nina wrote an excellent book (aren't all her books?) about rupas - I think it may be on www.zolag Your questions are very important. They are the same questions I used to be perplexed about (not that I see it all so well now - but I know the theory and find it very true). I think they are the same questions the Buddha and the arahants must have asked themsleves over milions of lives. If we never consider these difficult problems we will never get anywhere. We have to be confused and uncertain in the beginning; that's why it is called beginning. And beginning lasts a long time in this adventure. 1769 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear sarah, you addeda ps in the color letter "Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the discussion we were having about accumulations. I quote: '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the mano dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and rupa dhamma would appear as arammana.'.." --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been > pretty busy here in > between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the > week when i > get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of > the order or > what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround > and sometimes > the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly > they are not > coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT > score! Bedtime. > S. > > > > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to > >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) > >Robert > > > > > > 1770 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Kom, This is the clearest elucidation (for this beginner) I've seen of this process to date. I'll be reading this over many times, as well as saving it to refer others to. Thanks VERY much. mn --- protectID wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took > me a little while to > consider how technical a response could be, and how > useful it can be. > As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process > most likely will > remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the > citta and cetasikas > arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can > experience it as > taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our > understandings of how > things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in > anatta. > > As taught by Tan A. Sujin > (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- > 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects > through the six > dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi > (1), and mano- > dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is > experienced as poramatha > aramana by the cittas in the > panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also > experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the > mano-dvara-javana- > vithi process. > > It is only some vithis later that the > mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start > experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by > the earlier cittas > experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for > the cittas at this > point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it > does not rise, it does not > fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will > never exist. > > According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta > vithi processes, > before a process (3) can arise, there must be > "thousands" of (1), and (2) > processes already taken place repeatedly. By this > description, we can > deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 > moments of cittas) to > condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. > It must > take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and > mano-dvara-javana > vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, > for the citta to > start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects > into a concept. > > The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana > vithi (3), experiencing > the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning > we may just see an > unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar > shape, and then we may > attach a name to the shape. At this point, the > process of taking > poramatha object all the way to a memorable, > identifiable, namable > concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana > to hold on to. > > Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha > aramana doesn't > become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it > rises and falls away > virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes > "sharper": the cittas > process the aramana object so it become identifiable > and namable, and > hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively > "clearer" in "our" > mind. > > The other points that I was attempting to add before > is that, seeing > without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the > concepts of people, > animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears > that an object that we > see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: > constant and unchanging. It is > so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no > longer there. By > the time we see a shape, the object that we actually > saw is no longer > there. By the time we remember the name, the object > is no longer there. > > The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we > can't see, we need to > do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just > feel something hard, > we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the > rupa aggregate (shape, > name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization > is instantaneous. > This is true with what I observe about myself > anyway. > > The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and > self. Seeing > makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. > > I hope this adds some value to the discussion. > > kom > --- "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > This is very difficult for me to understand and > to digest. :-((( > > > > Alex > > ========== > > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) > > > > > >Dear Friends, > > > > > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't > become clearer or > > >sharper. > > >It is just that before we make "things" out of > what we see, there are > > >many > > >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make > shape and form > out of > > > > > >the visible object (from successive moments of > nama knowing and > > >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and > form, as well as > what > > > > > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). > > > > > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems > most important? This > > >is > > >because it is most difficult to > intellectualize/understand why we say > > >what > > >we take as shape and form and things aren't > really there. As long as > > >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are > all there, not going > > >anywhere, > > >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). > Why can't we say there > > >is no > > >person sitting in front of us: largely because we > see the person being > > >there. > > >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, > taking sense object > > >and make > > >it into a person requires more efforts to think > about the person. > > > > > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you > hear a voice, do you > > >immediately think there is a person there? > Couldn't it be some kind of > > >voice > > >recording??? Is it actually really a person > voice? In true realities, > > >it is just > > >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In > our understanding > > >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking > perhaps some words > > >that > > >we can understand. Without additional sense > objects that we take as > > >self, > > >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, > where in reallity there > > >is > > >never such a person there regardless. > > > > > >kom > > > 1771 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 6, 2000 11:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 05:44:05 -0800 (PST) > >dear alex, Dear Robert, >Wasn't Kom's answer great! Yes, it was excellent. I intend to print it out to keep it in my file. >I will but in and try to help with >your questions (I hope Kom will add too). Thank you, Robert. It sure will help me to understand the whole thing better. > > Yes, I understand. Samma ditthi is THE must before > > anything else. > >You have picked up so many vital points in such a short time >Alex. Thank you. Like what you said before, it must be the accumulations of conditions since it's uncontrollable. > > I understand that this is the way we explain the world > > according to nama > > and rupa. > > > > However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree > > in front of my > > house does not exist. This is really the question I'm > > confused about. > >Rupas do exist - for an infintely short moment and then they >fall away. However, while the conditions keep arising new rupas >keep replacing the old ones. These new ones are conditioned by >similar conditions thus they may look almost the same. Hence you >look at the tree and you can't see any change (although if you >look after a long time you would)- the rapidity with which it is >all happening makes it seem permanent. That's it. I knew it, but it somehow manages to escape me from remembering it sometimes. Obviously, it has not penetrate me totally yet. What you wrote reminded me of the old movie "The Time Machine". If I remember it correctly, the director indicated how the time machine was travelling by showing the audience how fast a tree changing itself according to seasons: full of green leaves in a second, then, blooming with flowers in another , the leaves turned red, and fell off quickly. >Nina wrote an excellent >book (aren't all her books?) about rupas - I think it may be on >www.zolag All of her books are excellent. Besides, A. Sujin, I'm very impressed with her, you, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, Kom, Mike, Leornardo, Jim, ... All of you are my teachers. Thank you. >Your questions are very important. They are the same questions I >used to be perplexed about (not that I see it all so well now - >but I know the theory and find it very true). I think they are >the same questions the Buddha and the arahants must have asked >themsleves over milions of lives. If we never consider these >difficult problems we will never get anywhere. We have to be >confused and uncertain in the beginning; that's why it is called >beginning. And beginning lasts a long time in this adventure. I need Patience, even when I'm full of lobha. :-))) Thank you. Anumodana, Alex Tran 1772 From: protectID=Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 0:06am Subject: Re: colour/sound Dear Kom, Robert and friends, I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we mean they are changing constantly. Anicca. Thank you, friends. Anumodana, Alex Tran --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > >The aramana for the cittas at this > >point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does > >not > >fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. > > I understand that this is the way we explain the world according to nama > and rupa. > > However, it's still difficult for me to see that the tree in front of my > house does not exist. This is really the question I'm confused about. 1773 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 1:25pm Subject: Re: colour/sound > I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything > is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we > mean they are changing constantly. Anicca. Dear Alex, Yes, that is why the tilakkhana start with anicca. Dukkha is more subtle, anything that arises and falls away is in fact dukkha. Anatta is the selflessness, the 'unreal'. I would like to have a try at explaining the unreal to our dear Alex, (taking a little time out from my 70 odd pp. translation- not so scary after a 550pp book, Robert, maybe the practice is helping!) starting from the very beginning (which is the only way I know how! So please bear with me,): We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six senses now. Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV watcher these days, told me that one of the better character actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be studied at all times. While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. I don't know if this helps, Alex, now I'll go back to the (72 er, minus 4 pp.) booklet! Hope you find something useful all the same, Amara 1774 From: protectID Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 3:13pm Subject: Ch VIII 18. piyavadita patirupataya catukammata vangceti kusala piyavadita - when communicating with others it should be done in a pleasant , unharmful way. akusala catukammata - talking to please others in order to get favours, get the liking towards oneself. Some go to the extent of insulting, degrading oneself to keep the others on the higher position, so to please them. This can cheat as piyavadita. 19. mitabhanata patirupataya asammodana seelata vangceti kusala mitabhanata - talking only as needed, with great care. Most probably this results in less and less talk. akusala asammodana seelata - hating others, not having the tendency to develop metta. this akusala may cheat as mitabhanata. 20. sammodana seelata patirupataya maya satheyyangca vangceti kusala sammodana seelata - communicating pleasently with others with metta. akusala maya - hiding own defilements and bad qualities akusala satheyya - showing off that one has the good qualities that he doesnt have. One who has the intention to hide own faults talks about people who have that fault condemning them.So the listeners think that this 'guy' doesnt have such faults. One who likes to say that he has such and such (non-existant) good qualities, praises those qualities and advices others to have such good qualities, so the listners may assume that this 'guy' must have such good qualities. this maya and satheyya can cheat in the disguise of sammodana seelata. contd. 1775 From: protectID Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 3:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah dear amara and sarah, :o) amara--> Thanks for the comments. (Yes, sinhala has much in common with pali) but with the pali phrases , i think that it is better to use the numbered list that jim posted for cross reference. I am sorry cos i cant type the correct Pali 'spellings' . sarah---> i can type you the section of sarakani sutta tomorrow ,before that i will wait and see whether robert would post it. 1776 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VIII Ouch. --- protectID wrote: > > > > > > 18. piyavadita patirupataya catukammata vangceti > > kusala piyavadita - when communicating with others > it should be done in a > pleasant , unharmful way. > > akusala catukammata - talking to please others in > order to get favours, get the > liking towards oneself. Some go to the extent of > insulting, degrading oneself to > keep the others on the higher position, so to > please them. > > This can cheat as piyavadita. > > > 19. mitabhanata patirupataya asammodana seelata > vangceti > > kusala mitabhanata - talking only as needed, with > great care. Most probably this > results in less and less talk. > > akusala asammodana seelata - hating others, not > having the tendency to develop > metta. > > this akusala may cheat as mitabhanata. > > 20. sammodana seelata patirupataya maya satheyyangca > vangceti > > kusala sammodana seelata - communicating pleasently > with others with metta. > > akusala maya - hiding own defilements and bad > qualities > > akusala satheyya - showing off that one has the good > qualities that he doesnt > have. > > One who has the intention to hide own faults talks > about people who have that > fault condemning them.So the listeners think that > this 'guy' doesnt have such > faults. > One who likes to say that he has such and such > (non-existant) good qualities, > praises those qualities and advices others to have > such good qualities, so the > listners may assume that this 'guy' must have such > good qualities. > > this maya and satheyya can cheat in the disguise of > sammodana seelata. > > > > contd. > > > 1777 From: protectID Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound dear alex you said----> " I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we mean they are changing constantly. Anicca." in meghiya sutta , buddha says----> "For a monk, Meghiya, who thinks on impermanence, the thought of not-self endures; thinking on there being no self, he wins to the state wherein the conceit I am " has been uprooted, to the cool, even in this life." :o) Thanx 1778 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Robert, >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to > > >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) > > >Robert > > > >Dear sarah, >you addeda ps in the color letter >"Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the >discussion we were >having about accumulations. I quote: > >'..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can >be no >knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly >realizes the >characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the mano >dvara would >arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and >rupa dhamma >would appear as arammana.'.." This was an extract from Summary which Amara kindly brought to our attention. The discussion I thought of I've just dug out of the archives (seemed like yesterday but actually it was a lot of messages ago!): Sarah From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 2:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda and cetana; between manasikara and sati Dear Sarah, It adds exactly what needed to be added. Thank you. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott protectID wrote: > Dear Robert and Sukin > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick protectID > > >It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala >citta > >so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is >not > >so important to be sure about the difference between all the > >cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification >of > >dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , > >including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as > >sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this will >be > >a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some >extent > >but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish nama > >from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not > >necessarily clear insight into the difference between these > >conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this - >I > >am far from sure about this intricate matter. > >Robert > >You may have noticed, Monday seems to be my main posting day! >I have a little more energy than at the end of the week, but the only >way I can post anything is by ignoring all the incoming mail for the day >which is very hard! > >On this point above, I meant to say something before...I think >it really depends on different accumulations. Just as K.Sujin discusses >in 'Realities & Concepts' and quotes from the Abhid. Vibhavani, people are >different in terms of which realities they are slow in understanding... (I >know we're all slow at understanding all realities, but still there are >some differences...altho' there are many 'cheating' traps as we all >know by now!). Anyway, the point is that there aren't any rules about >which realities are known in which order and which realities will >appear to highly developed panna either... One person may have highly >developed >metta and recognise the characteristic easily and another may do the >same for karuna. (I just thought of this example as K.Sujin mentioned she >was >in the former group once...) > >As we know, the Buddha taught about the realities in so many >different ways and groupings because we all have different interests and >accumulations and need to hear the truth accordingly. Some need to hear >more >about conditions, some need to hear more about rupas etc... > >Not sure this adds anything to your helpful message which is >probably why I held back before! > >Sarah > 1779 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 7:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Yes, very useful. No can plan which rupas or namas vipassana will insight - all too complex and no self anywayRobert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > > > >could you go into more detail about your refernce to > > > >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) > > > >Robert > > > > > >Dear sarah, > >you addeda ps in the color letter > >"Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the > >discussion we were > >having about accumulations. I quote: > > > >'..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there > can > >be no > >knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly > >realizes the > >characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the > mano > >dvara would > >arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and > >rupa dhamma > >would appear as arammana.'.." > > This was an extract from Summary which Amara kindly brought to > our > attention. The discussion I thought of I've just dug out of > the archives > (seemed like yesterday but actually it was a lot of messages > ago!): > Sarah > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Date: Mon Oct 30, 2000 2:42pm > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] differencies between chanda > and cetana; > between manasikara and sati > > Dear Sarah, > It adds exactly what needed to be added. Thank you. > Robert > --- Sarah Procter Abbott protectID wrote: > Dear > Robert and Sukin > > > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick protectID > > > > >It is critical to understand the characteristic of kusala > >citta > > >so that we don't mistake lobha for sati. But I think it is > >not > > >so important to be sure about the difference between all > the > > >cetasikas as they arise. When we look at the classification > >of > > >dhammas as khandas we see that there are many cetasikas , > > >including all the ones you mentioned, grouped together as > > >sankhara khanda. If we study about the differences this > will > >be > > >a base for panna to arise and see the difference to some > >extent > > >but how much is hard to say. Vipassana nanas distinguish > nama > > >from rupa; however, I think even at this level there is not > > >necessarily clear insight into the difference between these > > >conascent cetasikas. I look forward to others ideas on this > - > >I > > >am far from sure about this intricate matter. > > >Robert > > > >You may have noticed, Monday seems to be my main posting day! > >I have a little more energy than at the end of the week, but > the only > >way I can post anything is by ignoring all the incoming mail > for the day > >which is very hard! > > > >On this point above, I meant to say something before...I > think > >it really depends on different accumulations. Just as K.Sujin > discusses > >in 'Realities & Concepts' and quotes from the Abhid. > Vibhavani, people are > >different in terms of which realities they are slow in > understanding... (I > >know we're all slow at understanding all realities, but still > there are > >some differences...altho' there are many 'cheating' traps as > we all > >know by now!). Anyway, the point is that there aren't any > rules about > >which realities are known in which order and which realities > will > >appear to highly developed panna either... One person may > have highly > >developed > >metta and recognise the characteristic easily and another may > do the > >same for karuna. (I just thought of this example as K.Sujin > mentioned she > >was > >in the former group once...) > > > >As we know, the Buddha taught about the realities in so many > >different ways and groupings because we all have different > interests and > >accumulations and need to hear the truth accordingly. Some > need to hear > >more > >about conditions, some need to hear more about rupas etc... > > > >Not sure this adds anything to your helpful message which is > >probably why I held back before! > > > >Sarah > > > > > > 1780 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah >From: protectID >sarah---> >i can type you the section of sarakani sutta tomorrow ,before that i will >wait >and see whether robert would post it. > > Gayan, maybe not necessary if you or someone can give me a reference I can check up myself or maybe Mike can put in one of his hotlinks which are so useful for everyone to refer to... no hurry! Anumodana Sarah 1781 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]conditions,paccaya & Patthana Dear Amara, Many thanks, I look forward to reading both in due course...take your time! Like Robert says, you make it sound so simple....! Anumodana Sarah >From: "amara chay" >Dear Sarah, > >I was about to start translating the booklet Kom mentioned, when I >came across Khun Sujin's 'Summary of Paccaya', a 70 odd page booklet >that would be most useful for us, especially Jim, I think. So I'l >translate this one first and put it on the web as soon as it is >finished. > >Amara > 1782 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patthana commentaries Dear Jim , >Waubaushene, ON L0K 2C0 >Canada Jonothan will be in Ottawa next week for a week (law conference) if you happen to be passing through... > >I'm glad that you like the idea of intermingling the translation with the >Pali, and yes, I'm breaking up the text into small portions (typically, a >sentence or two). I'm sure the group can offer some further suggestions on >improving the page layout once I start submitting portions. It'll take some >experimenting and feedback to come up with the right layout for a >translation intermingled with three layers of commentaries plus the >footnotes! There are ots of experts in this group on layout and computer technology (but I'm most certainly not one!) > >If it is in the interest of the group, this could very easily become a >group >translation project as I'm sure many of you will have valuable comments and >suggestions to offer that will help steer the translation in the right >direction. I'm by no means an experienced Pali translator and so the >translations that I will submit will likely be in a somewhat rough state >which others with more talent could then help shape and refine into >something more beautiful and clearer. Once a part is finished, it could >then >go up on a webpage (I have 5MB available) for downloads and continue to be >open for revisions. All contributors will be duly acknowledged. I'm sure it will also lead to some excellent discussions along the way...lots of abhidhamma and conditions in daily life! maybe we'll write a sub sub-commentary after we've finished translating the others - I mean if there was a Tika written in the 19thC., why not one in the 20thC.? (mostly joking!) Anyway, I'm sure you'll receive lots of support and help here. > >I printed out the three pages of the Pali text today and started to >translate (in my mind) what I thought was going to be a really difficult >passage but it turned out to be not as bad as I first thought and it >appears >that any obscurities found in the text can be cleared up for the most part. >Btw, the tikas have some interesting things to say about devas -- which I >didn't know about before (coming soon!). sounds exciting... a real adventure! just go at your own pace in whtever way suits you! Sarah 1783 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 8:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Amara, Yes, what you wonderful post really helps. Thank you for your compassion in clarifying the idea of anicca. And thank you for helping me relating anicca back to paramatthadhamma. A few years ago, I heard a very humorous real life story about a conversation between 2 Vietnamese friends. One was a Christian and the other was a Buddhist. The former wanted to teach the latter that everything was created by God. Pointing a pine tree in front of them, he claimed that the tree was really a beautiful work of art. The Buddhist one looked at it and said that there was no tree, it was empty! Without realy understanding, we're confused. Consequently, we confuse others when saying something without conviction. I appreciate this list very much because of the knowledge of its members. Thank you very much for creating this list, Sarah. Thank you, Amara, for your beautiful Website. Thank you, Robert, Jonothan, Kom, and everyone for guiding me on the Path. Suddenly, I realize that it's the season of Thanksgiving in the U.S.A. :-))) It's good to give thanks in this list because no turkeys suffer when we give thanks. :-))) Anumodana, Alex ===================== >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 05:25:29 -0000 > > > > I think that I can answer my question now. When we say >everything > > is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we > > mean they are changing constantly. Anicca. > > >Dear Alex, > >Yes, that is why the tilakkhana start with anicca. Dukkha is more >subtle, anything that arises and falls away is in fact dukkha. >Anatta is the selflessness, the 'unreal'. > >I would like to have a try at explaining the unreal to our dear >Alex, (taking a little time out from my 70 odd pp. translation- not >so scary after a 550pp book, Robert, maybe the practice is helping!) >starting from the very beginning (which is the only way I know how! >So please bear with me,): > >We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, >think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at >all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience >from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? >Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes >when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into >contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear >related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, >through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through >the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses >combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is >your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that >sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, >they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to >you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that >sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact >for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses >including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And >there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as >aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from >our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six >senses now. > >Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with >characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to >you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV >watcher these days, told me that one of the better character >actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one >of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't >disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These >extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we >see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: >we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible >objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! >They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from >elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from >them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, >whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you >type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be >studied at all times. > >While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the >tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not >think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear >through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin >to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced >through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This >knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the >understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of >selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate >uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until >in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding >the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. > >I don't know if this helps, Alex, now I'll go back to the (72 er, >minus 4 pp.) booklet! Hope you find something useful all the same, > >Amara > > > 1784 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:31am Subject: background info Dear Alex, Thank you very much for the interesting bio. >From: "A T" >Dear Sarah and friends, > > As we all agree that there's no "I", therefore, it's kind of difficult >to >talk about myself. :-))) ..but we still need to talk in conventional language...even the Buddha did! > > I was brought up in Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism, Taoism, and >Confuciusism (spelling?) are parts of our culture. I heard of the concept >anicca, dukkha, and anatta since I was very young. Therefore, I guess, >it's >easier for me to understand what we are discussing about. yes, I think general familiarity with terms and culture do help...as we discussed with regard to N's letter....it's a little harder if someone isn't a 'Buddhist' even tho' the wrong views may be the same.. > > I was brought up in the Mahayana Buddhist background. In fact, most >Vietnamese have the Mahayana bacground. However, I was not very serious in >practicing Buddhism. It's just something you were born into. > > Then, I got interested in meditation. I was exposed more to Taoism, >and >Hinduism. At one time, I seriously considered translating the Gita into >Vietnamese. maybe you might translate Buddhism in DL by Nina VG instead! > > Finally, I got in touch with Theravada Buddhism through the help of a >Vietnamese monk. From then on, I study only Theravada Buddhism. Now, I >even teach a Sunday class for the young children at my temple. I just came >back from that class today. :-))) It's really fun to teach them. I >emphasized a lot of right and wrong views. Recently, I'm teaching them >words from the Buddha, mostly from Dhammapada. My philosophy is to give >them a seed, so that later on it may become one of the conditions for them >to study Dhamma more. excellent and very interesting... yes. sometimes planting the seed is the best help we can give. My only advice (which it sounds like you don't need) is to keep it very simple and full of daily life examples.... such as 'when you get mad with your brother, it's like your head is on fire...o.k. this is what the hell plane is like...' Or 'you want a strawberry and then are you happy? No, because you want another strawberry..! We're never satisfied!' I have very little experience of teaching dhamma to kids (altho' a lot of dhammic themes come up in my general teaching such as when a kid is in trouble at home or school). Khun sujin is the expert in this area... > > Do you have any idea how I can teach them the "Summary" by A. Sujin? I >don't want to overwhelm them. At the same time, I have a lot to learn, >too. > The more understanding you develop, the more you will help naturally with your own style.... > >Where is your contact with monks? > > They are from the Vietnamese temples. Most of my monks studied in >Thailand. One studied in India for awhile. My Abhidhamma teacher stayed >in >Thailand most of his life. His Thai is just as good as any Thai. He's the >one who knows Ajaan Sujin. Locally, we have a temple very close to my >home, >another one about 25 miles from where I live, and the third one about 40 >miles away. I go to the one close to me at least once a week. Is this in Texas? (just curious..) When I lived in S.Australia, there was a big Vietnamese community and I had a lot of Vietnamese students..... wonderful Vietnamese restaurants too! Lester who is silently on the list will agree with that. There were also some Viet Bud monks and temples but I didn't have so much contact. Thanks Alex. You've obviously considered very deeply and followed an interesting path. We're really fortunate you've found your way here (with Robert's and Amara's help)... Sarah 1785 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 9:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] background info Dear Sarah, It's interesting that you suggested translating Buddhism in Daily Life into Vietnamese. Last week, in a private email, I asked Amara how to obtain permission to translate A. Sujin's works. In fact, I already translated the first few pages of the Summary during the weekend. I do it really for myself because I'll understand it at a deeper level and to learn Pali words at the same time. It's going to be a slow process, unlike Amara's. She can be fast because of her expertise: her good understanding of Dhamma and her master command of English and Thai languages. Yes, you are right. All of those temples are in Texas. And they are Thevadin. There are many more if I include Mahayana. Besides, there are 2 Thai temples in my area: one is about 10 miles away from where I live and the other is about 40 miles away. It's very nice to see saffron robes when visiting the temples. Again, I must remind myself: Alex, there's no yellow robes... :-))) Anumodana, Alex >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] background info >Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 20:31:55 CST > >Dear Alex, > >Thank you very much for the interesting bio. > > >From: "A T" > > >Dear Sarah and friends, > > > > As we all agree that there's no "I", therefore, it's kind of >difficult > >to > >talk about myself. :-))) > >..but we still need to talk in conventional language...even the Buddha did! > > > > I was brought up in Vietnam. Therefore, Buddhism, Taoism, and > >Confuciusism (spelling?) are parts of our culture. I heard of the >concept > >anicca, dukkha, and anatta since I was very young. Therefore, I guess, > >it's > >easier for me to understand what we are discussing about. > >yes, I think general familiarity with terms and culture do help...as we >discussed with regard to N's letter....it's a little harder if someone >isn't >a 'Buddhist' even tho' the wrong views may be the same.. > > > > > I was brought up in the Mahayana Buddhist background. In fact, most > >Vietnamese have the Mahayana bacground. However, I was not very serious >in > >practicing Buddhism. It's just something you were born into. > > > > Then, I got interested in meditation. I was exposed more to Taoism, > >and > >Hinduism. At one time, I seriously considered translating the Gita into > >Vietnamese. > >maybe you might translate Buddhism in DL by Nina VG instead! > > > > > Finally, I got in touch with Theravada Buddhism through the help of a > >Vietnamese monk. From then on, I study only Theravada Buddhism. Now, I > >even teach a Sunday class for the young children at my temple. I just >came > >back from that class today. :-))) It's really fun to teach them. I > >emphasized a lot of right and wrong views. Recently, I'm teaching them > >words from the Buddha, mostly from Dhammapada. My philosophy is to give > >them a seed, so that later on it may become one of the conditions for >them > >to study Dhamma more. > >excellent and very interesting... yes. sometimes planting the seed is the >best help we can give. > >My only advice (which it sounds like you don't need) is to keep it very >simple and full of daily life examples.... such as 'when you get mad with >your brother, it's like your head is on fire...o.k. this is what the hell >plane is like...' Or 'you want a strawberry and then are you happy? No, >because you want another strawberry..! We're never satisfied!' > >I have very little experience of teaching dhamma to kids (altho' a lot of >dhammic themes come up in my general teaching such as when a kid is in >trouble at home or school). Khun sujin is the expert in this area... > > > > Do you have any idea how I can teach them the "Summary" by A. Sujin? >I > >don't want to overwhelm them. At the same time, I have a lot to learn, > >too. > > >The more understanding you develop, the more you will help naturally with >your own style.... > > > >Where is your contact with monks? > > > > They are from the Vietnamese temples. Most of my monks studied in > >Thailand. One studied in India for awhile. My Abhidhamma teacher stayed > >in > >Thailand most of his life. His Thai is just as good as any Thai. He's >the > >one who knows Ajaan Sujin. Locally, we have a temple very close to my > >home, > >another one about 25 miles from where I live, and the third one about 40 > >miles away. I go to the one close to me at least once a week. > >Is this in Texas? (just curious..) > >When I lived in S.Australia, there was a big Vietnamese community and I had >a lot of Vietnamese students..... wonderful Vietnamese restaurants too! >Lester who is silently on the list will agree with that. There were also >some Viet Bud monks and temples but I didn't have so much contact. > >Thanks Alex. You've obviously considered very deeply and followed an >interesting path. We're really fortunate you've found your way here (with >Robert's and Amara's help)... > >Sarah 1786 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear All, --- protectID wrote: > dear alex > > you said----> > " I think that I can answer my question now. When > we say everything > is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the > rupas. Instead we > mean they are changing constantly. Anicca." > > in meghiya sutta , buddha says----> > > "For a monk, Meghiya, who thinks on impermanence, > the thought of not-self > endures; thinking on there being no self, he wins to > the state wherein the > conceit I am " has been uprooted, to the cool, even > in this life." > > > :o) > > > Thanx Thanks, Gayan and Alex. My question is probably very elementary, and I'm afraid it may have already been addressed recently. Anyway, here it is: In Gayan's wonderful example above and in many other places in the suttas, the Buddha encourages listeners to think in such-and-such a way, to 'train yourself' in such-and-such a way, etc. Since there is no 'one' to think or to train 'oneself', I assume that in these passages the Buddha is teaching according to his listeners' abilities to understand. So here's my question (finally): If a thought or concept is not a dhamma, is not real, does not arise or subside, can it still be called kusala or akusala? In other words, if a THOUGHT of, say, non-harming arises and drives out a THOUGHT of harming, even with the attendant deluded THOUGHT that oneself is causing the arising of the relatively more wholesome thought, is that thought really more kusala than the preceding thought? Even though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more kusala than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' or 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the Buddha's intention when instructing his listeners to think or to train themselves in such-and-such a way? Thanks in advance, Mike p.s. I'm 'way behind in my correspondence and have several messages unanswered in my 'inbox'. Thanks, all, for your patience! 1787 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 10:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > maybe Mike can put in one of his hotlinks Unfortunately, the Sarakanisutta doesn't seem to be on-line, anyplace that I can find, anyway. If I can find the time today, I'll try transcribing some of it from PTS (SN 55.3.4). Somehow, this idea doesn't surprise me much. If the 'accumulations' are present, I would think that understanding would arise regardless of the other, not-so-wholesome accumulations. Look at Anugulimala! Isn't this what the simile of the lotus is about? The lotus is just a lotus, whether it blossoms in the mud, or in the water, or in the air. And understanding is just understanding, right? Whether it arises in a sinner or a saint--isn't all that just sankharupadana? Thanks in advance, mn 1788 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 10:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear All, > > --- the Buddha encourages listeners to think > in such-and-such a way, to 'train yourself' in > such-and-such a way, etc. Since there is no 'one' to > think or to train 'oneself', I assume that in these > passages the Buddha is teaching according to his > listeners' abilities to understand. So here's my > question (finally): If a thought or concept is not a > dhamma, is not real, does not arise or subside, can it > still be called kusala or akusala? In other words, if > a THOUGHT of, say, non-harming arises and drives out a > THOUGHT of harming, even with the attendant deluded > THOUGHT that oneself is causing the arising of the > relatively more wholesome thought, is that thought > really more kusala than the preceding thought? Two main points, I think, to understand here. 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration meditation) can be very effectively done, even to the extent of the eight jhana by one who holds very strong convictions about self. This type of meditation may even lead to more fixed views about self (see brahmajala sutta). Now the actual view itself is akusala but the moments with true calm are kusala. 2. One can have right view, know with deep understanding that there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One may still use the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one knows that these are simply designations, terms that are useful ways of communicating but that do not refer to actual realities. Thus one can still train "oneself", but understand that it is only by conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one will not be perturbed if the kusala does not arise. Samattha and vipassana can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka -vipassaka, dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, the development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much easier. The far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is developed one can reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas and rupas that arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry with the new ones? But these ones were not the ones that conditioned the sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that ear-sense and hearing consciousness have likewise long since passed...". this is just a very rough example of the type of reflection conditioned by the development of vipassana. This level of understanding allows metta to replace the anger. Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for the true development of vipassana there must be good understanding of the characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often discuss, one will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is better and better understood, by developing satipatthana, one is less fooled by it also when developing metta. Even > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more kusala > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' or > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the Buddha's > intention when instructing his listeners to think or > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > The thinking process is composed of namas and some of these also condition rupa. What is not real is the concept that may be the object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, tables, cars, pretty woman .....)The javanna moments are always rooted in either kusala (with amoha(wisdom) or without) or akusala. Thus we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. When we consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the thoughts are to some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, detachment and adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of course be thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or attachment.) Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a crucial factor before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the direct understanding develops this supports more understanding at the thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise thinking, direct understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, wisethinking.... A very gradual upward spiral, cira kala bhavana (long, long time development). Even after vipassana nanas are reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is needed to further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga XVIII24 says "after defining mentality -materialty thus according to its true nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then in oreder to abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more thoroghly, to surmount confusion about beings and to establish his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely 'this is mere menatlity-materiality,there is no being, no person' is confirmed by a number of suttas. .." Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief explanation only. Robert 1789 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 11:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound --- "Correction: my last post should have said visuddhimagga xviii25 (not 24.) Robert 1790 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 11:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah Mike Well said, sir! > Somehow, this idea doesn't surprise me much. If the > 'accumulations' are present, I would think that > understanding would arise regardless of the other, > not-so-wholesome accumulations. Look at > Anugulimala! > Isn't this what the simile of the lotus is about? > The > lotus is just a lotus, whether it blossoms in the > mud, > or in the water, or in the air. And understanding > is > just understanding, right? Whether it arises in a > sinner or a saint--isn't all that just > sankharupadana? Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to its development, than does physical violence. And if I remember correctly, Angulimala renounced violence immediately on hearing the dhamma, so the 2 did not run together concurrently (as it were). Not having heard this particular story before, if you'd asked me I'd have said it was impossible. Which just goes to show that we don't understand as much about the nature of awareness and panna and their development as perhpas we think we do. Jonothan 1791 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 11:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah dear Jon, "Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to > carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically > opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to > its development, than does physical violence" Do you know the story of the Kings minister who had been on a major drunken binge with some of his concubines for three or 4 days (I forget his name - gayan probably knows). He saw the buddha and all the alcohol was immediately vaporised, he listened and became, I believe, an anagami there and then. As mike so ably said "if the accumulations are present..." Yes, we can see a part of this present life; but that is just an moment in samsara vata. There are other stories that show the danger of drinking. One man had the accumulations to become arahant but took to alcohol, lost his wealth and never even got to hear the Buddha in that life. (The Buddha pointed him out to ananda) Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > Well said, sir! > > > Somehow, this idea doesn't surprise me much. If the > > 'accumulations' are present, I would think that > > understanding would arise regardless of the other, > > not-so-wholesome accumulations. Look at > > Anugulimala! > > Isn't this what the simile of the lotus is about? > > The > > lotus is just a lotus, whether it blossoms in the > > mud, > > or in the water, or in the air. And understanding > > is > > just understanding, right? Whether it arises in a > > sinner or a saint--isn't all that just > > sankharupadana? > > Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to > carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically > opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to > its development, than does physical violence. And if > I remember correctly, Angulimala renounced violence > immediately on hearing the dhamma, so the 2 did not > run together concurrently (as it were). > > Not having heard this particular story before, if > you'd asked me I'd have said it was impossible. Which > just goes to show that we don't understand as much > about the nature of awareness and panna and their > development as perhpas we think we do. > > Jonothan > > > 1793 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 0:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Robert, This is excellent, thanks-- --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief > explanation > only. Will do--this requires more mulling over, which I'll do as soon as possible, on my own time (I'm at work...!) Thanks again, mn 1794 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 7, 2000 8:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Yes, that's exactly what I heard: once we truly know anicca, we know anatta and dukkha. In fact, we need to know one out of the three, then, the other two will automatically fall into places. That's why it's wonderful in this list to emphasize so much on anatta. Gayan, you are very knowledgeable in Dhamma at such a young age. You must have a lot of good accumulation to be born in Dhamma land and understand the value of Dhamma so well. I have another good Sri Lankan friend who's teaching me Dhamma as well. She just published a book of the life of the Buddha, entitled "The Light of the Ten Thousandfold World System". Everyone praises that work. You can have a look at the following website to see her work: http://www.lifeofbuddha.com/ Anumodana, Alex Tran ========================== >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:43:19 +0600 > > > > >dear alex > >you said----> >" I think that I can answer my question now. When we say everything >is unreal, and not existing, we don't deny the rupas. Instead we >mean they are changing constantly. Anicca." > > >in meghiya sutta , buddha says----> > >"For a monk, Meghiya, who thinks on impermanence, the thought of not-self >endures; thinking on there being no self, he wins to the state wherein the >conceit I am " has been uprooted, to the cool, even in this life." > > >:o) > > >Thanx > > 1795 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again Sawaad dee khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Usually the citta is so fast that when there are > conditions, they > arise immediately, there is no stopping them in time > or supplanting > them with anything else. Right, I do realize that, though I thank you for the reminder. My error here was in mistaking thoughts for cittas--an old habit with a certain tenacity of its own...What I should have said (and understood), was, if (thanks to present 'accumulations') a more kusala thought arises to 'supplant' a less kusala one...but I've asked this question in a reply to a different post earlier this morning (I think), so I won't repeat it now... > But right understanding is > also a cetasika > that accompanies the citta and arises as quickly- > when there are > conditions for it to also. Right understanding can > be of several > levels, as Robert explained so well, the > intellectual level is very > important especially as conditions for the > experiencing level. Right! > But > at the experiencing level it needs not be followed > by long trains of > analysis. Someday... > For example on the theoretic level > visible objects arise > and fall away, what is seen through the eyes are > light and color, > shapes and forms are later recognized, seeing occurs > when the inner > and outer ayatanas come into contact, etc. But what > we are seeing > now does not need to be described, its > characteristics as they > appear to right understanding that is studying it is > accumulated for > further right understanding to occur and accumulate > in continuation, > and as long as there is the study of realities that > appear as > distinct from those through other dvara and from one > reality to the > other even through the same dvara (seeing is > different from light > and color), knowledge of these characteristics will > also grow, > gradually, little by little. Got it. > When the knowledge is strong enough and the > conditions are right, it > can eradicate dosa completely (at the anagami level) > but in the > meantime when the conditions are right, again, the > growing knowledge > that the dosa is arising, as Alex once said, I > think, can also > condition less dosa to arise. Right! > While before one > might be tempted to > show your dosa and wish the other person bad things, > one might see > the harm dosa is doing to oneself and bringing no > good to anyone > else. Or one might, at the experiencing level, > experience it as > such, an uncomfortable and harmful state of the > citta that has > arisen and fallen away, impermanent like anything > else, and > different from other moments of citta such as lobha > or seeing or > thinking. This realization automatically, without > any thinking > about it all day, adds to your knowledge of things > as they really > are, since that is the duty of right understanding: > to accumulate > more right understanding as they arise. Understood! --Conceptually, of course... > As you see it is a very complex matter, but the true > nature of > realities as they arise and are experienced with > right understanding > will help clarify the theories as well. In other > words all dhamma > studies help and support and clarify one another, so > long as one > studies the Buddha's words as much as one can > without prejudice or > preconception, I think. Yes, the spiral Robert mentioned...Thanks as always, Ma'am... mn 1796 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch VI --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > No, I don't think you've misunderstood Gayan and > this is a good example. Thanks! This is HIGHLY (with lobha) gratifying... > It may be piti (kusala) or it may be lobha (akusala) > be experienced but in > either case lobha arises with regard to it. If it is > piti in samatha > practice, one can be so attached to it that it > becomes easy to follow the > wrong path.... and as you say the prevention of the > arising of real > understanding... > > Thanks also for your reminder in another post about > being aware of dosa as > object rather than a story of monks and respect.... ...and thank you again! I thought this was terribly wise myself, and have been waiting patiently for recognition. I'm sure this is extremely wholesome, ahem! Seriously, though, since I don't expect to be able to leave the world of thoughts and concepts (and reflections) for a long time, I do think it's important to remember to reflect on the 'right' aspects of them. I respond off-list because I don't think 'I have' the understanding to admonish anyone else (even though I've done it, haven't I, in moments blissfully free from appamada), and think they might not take it kindly (again!)--especially on a subject so intensely 'personal' to a devout Buddhist from a Buddhist country. And despite my facetiousness, I really do appreciate your comments and promise to try to keep them in perspective... Mike 1797 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Khun Kom, Anumodhana, Very good explanation. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound | Dear Alex, | | Sorry it took longer than usual to respond. It took me a little while to | consider how technical a response could be, and how useful it can be. | As Khun Shin has mentioned, studying this process most likely will | remain an intellectual understanding at best, as the citta and cetasikas | arise and fall so incredibly fast that only few can experience it as | taught by the Buddha, but it enhances our understandings of how | things work, and hopefully, can improve our faith in anatta. | | As taught by Tan A. Sujin (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1- | 8.html, Chapter 4), the namas can experience objects through the six | dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- | dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as poramatha | aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also | experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- | vithi process. | | It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start | experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas | experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this | point is no longer poramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not | fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. | | According to Porichet VI, which discusses the citta vithi processes, | before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can | deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to | condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must | take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara-javana | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. | | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an | unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may | attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking | poramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable | concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. | | Hence, to add to my original comments, the poramatha aramana doesn't | become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away | virtually immediately? Only pannati becomes "sharper": the cittas | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" | mind. | | The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing | without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, | animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we | see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is | so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By | the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer | there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there. | | The other senses are not so indiscriminate. If we can't see, we need to | do more work to conceptualize "things". If we just feel something hard, | we need to feel all over to make a thing out of the rupa aggregate (shape, | name, etc) whereas if we see, this conceptualization is instantaneous. | This is true with what I observe about myself anyway. | | The concepts are what we take as people, animal, and self. Seeing | makes it very easy to conceptualize about things. | | I hope this adds some value to the discussion. | | kom | --- "A T" wrote: | > Dear Kom, | > | > This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest. :-((( | > | > Alex | > ========== | > >From: Kom Tukovinit | > | > | > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) | > > | > >Dear Friends, | > > | > >As Sarah has mentioned. Visible objects don't become clearer or | > >sharper. | > >It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are | > >many | > >moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form | out of | > > | > >the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and | > >remembering), and then what it is. The shape and form, as well as | what | > > | > >the object is, are all thinking (pannati). | > > | > >Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important? This | > >is | > >because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say | > >what | > >we take as shape and form and things aren't really there. As long as | > >we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going | > >anywhere, | > >not arising and falling (without satipatthana). Why can't we say there | > >is no | > >person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being | > >there. | > >It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object | > >and make | > >it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person. | > > | > >Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you | > >immediately think there is a person there? Couldn't it be some kind of | > >voice | > >recording??? Is it actually really a person voice? In true realities, | > >it is just | > >many moments of sound that many cittas hear. In our understanding | > >without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words | > >that | > >we can understand. Without additional sense objects that we take as | > >self, | > >we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there | > >is | > >never such a person there regardless. | > > | > >kom | | | | | 1798 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Fantastic explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no 3D no anything. anumodhana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear sarah, | Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or | sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- | does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of | colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another | concept of depth (no depth). | I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other | doors are easier? You said "When we | > have the idea | > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if | > there really is | > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether | > it just seems | > like that." | > | --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear | Robert & Shin, | > | > I've read and considered the correspondence below and I'm not | > sure that I | > agree with your comments on Kom's and Betty's posts...! | > | > Firstly when we say that seeing sees visible object or we say | > seeing sees | > colour or we say seeing sees 3D, there can be understanding or | > no | > understanding or something hazy in between when we say it. For | > example, if | > we say seeing sees color, it's very easy for someone to have | > an idea of a | > flat board of colours in front of the eyes which are seen and | > then | > interpreted into what is actually seen or what we think is | > actually seen. So | > it's very easy to say seeing sees colour/visible object/3D | > with the wrong | > view of experiencing something other than that which is | > experienced already. | > Seeing sees just what it sees which doesn't change with any | > understanding. | > Its job is just to see, whether sharp or blurry. As Kom went | > on to say | > (below), the ideas of shape, form, object and anything else | > (yes colours, | > depth, whatever) are all pannatti. There have to be many, many | > moments of | > understanding of seeing (as a nama) and visible object/colour | > (as a rupa) to | > understand them clearly. | > | > it is not easy, but essential to understand this area. When we | > have the idea | > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if | > there really is | > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether | > it just seems | > like that. | > | > | > Sarah | > | > p.s. Amara, many thanks for your helpful post from Summary on | > namarupapaparricheda nana- so much excellent detail. | > Robert, there was a part here which wwas relevant to the | > discussion we were | > having about accumulations. I quote: | > | > '..But as long as vipassana nana has not yet arisen, there can | > be no | > knowledge when and where the vipassana nana that clearly | > realizes the | > characteristics of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma through the | > mano dvara would | > arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama dhamma and | > rupa dhamma | > would appear as arammana.'.. | > | > p.p.s I've just noticed that Kom has posted again on this | > subject but I | > haven't read his latest thoughts....sorry Kom & friends, this | > was so slow! | > | > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick | > | > >Dear Shin, | > >You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our | > >understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- | > to | > >what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible | > >object, the various colours, whatever they may be. It is | > only | > >at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference | > >between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there | > >must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana | > (the | > >specific charcteristics) of dhammas. | > >Robert 1799 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Sarah, Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different in every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. with regards, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Robert, | | >From: Robert Kirkpatrick | > | >Dear sarah, | >Seeing can cognise that element known as vannayatana (or | >sometimes rupayatana). That element is only different colours- | >does not the concept of depth or 3d come in after the flashes of | >colour? the idea of a flat board of colours is just another | >concept of depth (no depth). | >I must have been confused - where did I indicate that the other | >doors are easier? You said "When we | > > have the idea | > > that other sense door objects are easier, I just wonder if | > > there really is | > > clear understanding of the realities through them or whether | > > it just seems | > > like that." | > > | | Firstly, I did not mean to suggest that you or Shin had indicated that the | other sense doors are easier. I know you don't have any idea of other doors | being easier! | | what I meant was that it is a common idea that sounds are easier to | understand or that bodily sensations are easier to know. | | What I was questioning was the rebuttal or objection made to Kom's and | Betty's posts. I agree that the concept of depth and I would say also the | concepts of colours come in after the vannayatana/rupayatana is experienced. | That's why I like to think of it as just that which is seen or visible | object but I really think it depends on the understanding when we say seeing | sees visible object or colour. Both Kom and I stressed that any ideas of | shape, form, object and anything else (colours, depth) are all pannatti. | | I may add more later, but I'm posting this quickly for a change as I don't | want you to think you are being misquoted! Thanks for your comments, Robert. | | Sarah | |