2000 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Amara, Very sorry but I don't have a reference. Proper reflection was my words - not a translation of the pali (I can't evn remember the English and have never read the pali). So by proper reflection I meant thinking in such ways as "this food is only medicine" or when the monks bring to mind the simile of the child. I read this sutta maybe five or six years ago so the details are very hazy. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > No doubt. My question still stands: > > > > > In your own refference above, what was the Pali for > 'proper > > > relection'? > > > Amara > > 2001 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:54pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > Proper reflection was > my words - not a translation of the pali (I can't evn remember > the English and have never read the pali). Dear Robert, Not having read it myself I cannot suggest that it might refer to awareness as in satipatthana. Amara 2002 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Alex, > > > 1. the monk who is faring along well in the Vinaya, on account > of his > attainment of virtue, arrives at the threefold knowledge > (vijjaa) > 2. the monk who is faring along well in the Suttanta, on > account of his > attainment of concentration, arrives at the sixfold higher > knowledge > (abhi~n~naa) > 3. the monk who is faring along well in the Abhidhamma, on > account of his > attainment of wisdom, arrives at the fourfold analytic > insight > (pa.tisambhidaa) And here is a note in the atthasalini about those who are not faring along well(p30, 31 Pe Maung tin PTS)which follows directly after the note above. (I abridge) 1. The Bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the vinaya imagines that there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because the touch of these is similar to that of blankets, cloaks etc...Consequently the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices. 2. The bhikkhu who is ill-trained in sutta gets a wrong idea... conseqently he arrives at wrong views. 3. The bhikkhu who is ill-trained in Abhidhamma makes his mind run to excess....consequently he gets mental derangement. > > No. 1 of the last group of three suggests that there is enough > dhamma in the > Vinayapitaka for a monk to arrive at the threefold knowledge > which includes > knowledge of the destruction of the cankers > (arahatta-fruition). I think this is a risky assumption, especially in this age where now there are only neyya and padaparama individuals (see puggalapannati). Neyya are those who need to hear Dhamma in much detail and who even if they practice correctly may still not attain in this life. Padaparama even if they hear much and practice correctly cannot attain in this life but accumulate the causes for panna in future lives. The vinaya has much in it and for those in the Buddhas time who were Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu (those who could attain after hearing dhamma briefly or in moderate detail ) certainly it would have been sufficient. These days we are not so wise and need many details to condition wisdom - from the entire tipitika and commentaries. robert 2003 From: A T Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Robert, >What is crucial here is to understand just what sila really is. >This is where the Abhidhamma is necessary for proper >understanding of satipatthana and thus for understanding the >vinaya. Yes, I understand. I would like to understand how the Vinaya is related to satipatthana. >As I have stressed at different times it is not by >outward action that we can judge sila. Is it easy to see that by killing with intention and the action is completed, I break the first precept? If intentionally going out of my way seeking and drinking alcohol, I successfully break the fifth one? >You once said about a >karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him >whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely. I thought that Sati and Sila are 2 different things. Sati exists along with mindfullness of kusala citta. Breaking the Sila is akusala. Therefore, when intentionally breaking a sila, I cannot have a moment of sati. However, since sati is momentary, a karaoke attendant who is not drunk may have moments of sati, while a drunken man cannot. The effect of alcohol will prevent him from having any moment of sati at all. >The monks "job" is to guard the sixdoors and he is reminded >about this duty by the vinaya. This guarding is only >accomplished properly when there is attention to the kammatthana >(meditation object) which as we have said before at this time >should usually be the khandas, dhatus, or ayatanas. A monk knows >that if he even eats a meal without reflecting wisely that for >that much alone he is liable to be born in hell. Anyone can live >the monks life if they have the perseverance to endure an >austere lifestyle- BUT to live it with RIGHT effort to >understand the moment takes wisdom, as garnered from right >reflection from the Dhamma. I understand the above paragraph. Thank you. > > > I see. It's similar to the idea of taking 5 precepts. The > > Sila helps > > the mind clear and peaceful so that it can study Dhamma > > better. > >Your reply may indicate an idea that first we get sila and then >comes wisdom. Remember that a moment cannot be held onto. I understand that similar to study Dhamma, by keeping the Sila we are creating more conditions for Sati moments. >Sila >and wisdom can arise together because every kusala citta can be >classified as sila. I understand what you say here: Every kusala citta can be classified as sila. :-))) >Some people have the same idea about samadhi; they think they >will get concentrated and then use this concentration to >investigate. Both of these ideas show a belief in permanence >and control. You see ekaggatta cetasika, samadhi, arises and >passes away COMPLETLY along with the citta that is conascent to >it. Because the next citta is conditioned by the preceeding >citta if the arammana is the same, as in the development of >samattha, then samadhi can become powerful and so upacara >samadhi and then jhana attained. However in vipassana it is >different. This is more subtle than samattha. It needs that >special knowledge that only Buddha's can teach- the >understanding of anatta and its corollary no-control. I agree ... >There >cannot be holding to one object with vipassana because >satpatthana can only be aware of paramattha dhammas, actual >realities. And paramattha dhammas are arising and passing >ceaselessly. They have their own conditions for coming into >being. No one can control them or hold onto them. Thus samadhi >in vipassana is khanika samadhi, momentary. It does not last >even for a split second. It has different strengths appropriate >to the level of understanding. At the moments of actual >vipassana insight the samadhi is very powerful just for those >moments. It is conditioned by the panna that arises at the same >time and it assists panna because it fixes on whatever parmattha >dhammas are being insighted. This is all uncontrollable though >and we can't arrange to have samadhi and the later tack wisdom >onto it. Thank you for reminding me ... > > Now, I have a related question: Do we need to study the > > Vinaya the way > > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma? I know that the > > monks study and > > review the Vinaya thoroughly. > >Good to study Vinaya I think. Reading Vinaya as rules is not a problem. However, to study it in order to develop panna is not so easy, I think. >Yes, Sila in daily life is very supportive. I just found a > > title for > > Nina's new book: Sila In Daily Life. :-))) > >Good idea :-))) Anumodana, Alex 2004 From: Jim Wilson Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:33pm Subject: Thanks For The Help Good Friends: Thanks so much for the help. Good practical suggestions. Looking forward to furthering my understanding with all your kind assistance. Best wishes, Jimfw 2005 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" . --Dear alex, Good questions! - A T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >> > Yes, I understand. I would like to understand how the > Vinaya is related > to satipatthana. In the Vissudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as restraint and one of the ways is restraint by mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says “he guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty,” and it repeats for the other doors. And later it says (I42) “On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint..”.. Now for this type of sila it is very obvious that one does not have to be a monk. However the vinaya in various ways encourages one to "guard the sense doors". The vinaya constantly reminds about the slightest fault: so, for example, monks should not gaze at a woman. If they are start to do this they will remember the rule and, if they understand satipatthana, replace the lustful gaze with study of a paramattha dhamma such as colour.(if they don't understand they might try to supress in some way or another). On the other hand, for people like me, who are not under any such rule, I may continue gazing mindlessly, heedlessly, lustfully and blissfully. > > >As I have stressed at different times it is not by > >outward action that we can judge sila. > > Is it easy to see that by killing with intention and the > action is > completed, I break the first precept? If intentionally going > out of my way > seeking and drinking alcohol, I successfully break the fifth > one? Different levels of akusala here. If someone twists your arm and you have a sip of beer even though you don't want to, as soon as you take a sip there is breaking of sila. If you want to so much and go to great trouble to do so the degree of akusala is likely to be greater. Here is an extract from a letter I wrote a while back: We tend to have a story "well if I drink just a can or two it isn't so bad - I won't get drunk'. And when we put it that way it doesn't seem too bad. . If we break the story down into what is actually happening moment by moment it looks a little more serious. Hence: we start thinking about how nice it would be to have a beer (whiskey, tequila, cocktail..). That thinking is rooted in lobha, unwholesome desire. And the nasty type of lobha called asama lobha (the lobha that goes beyond bounds). We then make plans to; go to a bar, a party, a liquor shop, a friends house. More asama lobha. This type of thinking then conditions bodily action - we get the car out and drive to; a bar; a party... And all this action; getting the keys, opening the car door, driving is all conditioned by very unwholesome mindstates. However, at this stage still not the completed unwholesome kamma (akusala kamma pattha). This only happens when we actually drink. At the very first swallow this is completed kamma and it can bring unpleasant results at some time in the future. Take another swallow- another akusala kamma pattha. Many can be done in the course of an evening. This can be broken down more and more and more. If we study these moments again and again during the course of an evening we may see a little of the nature of this type of akusala. Whenever we refuse a drink there is a moment of kusala (wholesomeness), sila. This might be followed shortly afterwards by unwholesomeness when we can't help ourselves and take a drink anyway (akusala). > >You once said about a > >karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him > >whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely. > > I thought that Sati and Sila are 2 different things. Sati > exists along > with mindfullness of kusala citta. Breaking the Sila is > akusala. > Therefore, when intentionally breaking a sila, I cannot have a > moment of > sati. This is why understanding the difference between concept and reality is the key. WE have a story of sila - that is we believe that 'we" are keeping sila or not keeping sila. But sila is simply a mental reality, a dhamma, that arises for the briefest possible moment before passing away. > However, since sati is momentary, a karaoke attendant who > is not drunk > may have moments of sati, while a drunken man cannot. The > effect of alcohol > will prevent him from having any moment of sati at all. This is a misunderstanding. There can be moments of sila even while one is drunk. For example, you are drunk, someone offers you more beer but sati arises and you refuse it. This is sila. As always only by breaking down 'life" into just one moment can we understand this. There truly is no person, only moments, of 4 different jatis. This is the crux of the matter. > > I understand that similar to study Dhamma, by keeping the > Sila we are > creating more conditions for Sati moments. > As I noted it is not us keeping sila and sila only lasts for a moment. There is a no sila when we are sitting quietly trying to concentrate but with hidden desire or moha. But there is a high level of sila if there is awareness of the characteristic of a paramattha dhamma (reality) even while we are watching a violent movie on TV (for example). > > > > Now, I have a related question: Do we need to study > the > > > Vinaya the way > > > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma? I know that the > > > monks study and > > > review the Vinaya thoroughly. I think no rule about this. As Jim noted the vinaya (and commentaries to it) are filled with Dhamma as well as the monks rules. I used to read it alot. Khun sujin often discusses points in it. She does stress that in the beginning Abhidhamma is most important so that a level of understanding about anatta is established. I think if all laypeople studied vinaya in Thailand it would be a great thing as then they would stop giving money to monks or supporting bad monks. Robert 2006 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 5:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] re: teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael J, I'm interested to read your comments and response to Sotujana. May I say at the outset that I agree with some of your comments but not with others! I'm sure you'll have a similar reaction to what I'm going to say and look forward to more of your clear responses! --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear Sotujana > > You question about teaching resources is > inappropriate. > well, right here, I'm not sure I agree... > Basic meditation is not easy to teach even for > professional educators. This > is a big responsibility and not to be taken lightly. > > Vipassana is not basic meditation at any stage and > should be introduced to > students by trained and experienced practitioners. > > Have you ever been on a vipassana course yourself? > > Have you ever done any vipassana meditation retreats > and if so for how long? > Now we run into some interesting areas! You mentioned before that you don't see any difference to date between what A.Sujin teaches and vipassana meditation practices. I agree with you entirely that vipassana is not 'basic meditation at any stage'. So what is vipassana and why is it necessary to go on a vipassana meditation course? What is an experienced practitioner? The Buddha taught that vipassana is the development of wisdom so why should it be reduced to a technique which is learnt on a course? > > I think Sarah already guessed that you seem to know > very little about what > vipassana might be. I think that when there is no direct understanding of the reality that appears at this moment, there is no knowledge of what vipassana is. This applies to us all. If we have the idea of having that understanding and being aware next month during a special course, it shows a lack of confidence in the power of understanding now. It also suggests a lack of knowledge about the objects of understanding, the realities that need to be known now. > > Why do you want to teach vipassana? Look in your > heart and find out what is > motivating you to want this. There are more > appropriate ways of helping > others, meeting nice people or earning a living. > I can't say for anyone else what their various motives are and I agree with you that we need to be very honest about our different (wholesome and unwholesome) motives. However, the greatest gift is the gift of the Buddha's teachings. If we can help others to understand a little about the true meaning of vipassana (development of understanding), then this is very praiseworthy. If we wait until we're experts, we may be dead! As I said to Sotujana, I believe that by reading, considering and developing more understanding we'll be able to help better. > You need to understand what vipassana is first. One > way to do that is to > study by sitting in on this e-mail list and reading > the materials > recommended by Sarah and others on the internet, > book stores and public > libraries. There are a lot of resources online - > just put the word > 'vipassana' in any internet search engine. In > addition to study there is > the practice. It is vital that you go on an actual > vipassana meditation > course yourself to find out how it is done. After > the introduction you > might be ready to go on a retreat for a month or so > to understand what > happens and what problems arise for meditators. You > might not be read to > teach 'basic vipassana meditation' after all that. Well, I'm very glad you are finding many of the same resources useful as the rest of us do. You've obviously heard and read and considered a lot and you're fortunate to be in Bangkok and have the opportunity for good 'live' discussion too. The problem with searching 'vipassana' on the internet as you suggest is that she'll find a range of different understandings. I'd be bold enough as to say some are right and some are wrong! I agree that after reading and considering the various viewpoints and researching what the Buddha really said, she may be inclined to continue as she is doing, she may be inclined to follow your advice and go on a long vipassana meditation retreat or she may just begin to see that vipassana can develop in daily life, on the subway, in the shops, whilst talking with friends or whilst eating greedily! Any time is the right time! > I began vipassana meditation about 18 years ago. I > have been on many > retreats, some even as long as 3 months. Even so, I > am not ready to > introduce others to 'basic vipassana meditation.' Well, when I first became interested in the dhamma, I also spent a long time following 'vipassana meditation' practices in India and Sri lanka. The most wonderful experience I had was when at the end of a stint of many months in a temple in Sri lanka, a visitor to the temple, Ann, introduced me to 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina VG in manuscript form and some bad quality tapes of discussion with A.Sujin in India. After reading the first page of ADL I was never inclined to 'meditate' again....Realities are anatta, beyond control. Behind my practice for all this time had been a lurking idea of self who could be aware. Best wishes, Sarah p.s To Amara, Tom, Pinna, some very exciting news (lots of lobha this end)..Ann (Marshall Bell) as in my note above, just went out to Vancouver airport to meet Jonothan in transit. He just called to say she was very enthusiastic about this group and promises to join! I had sent her a postcard at the outset but she'd lost the details or something. If she loses it this time, we'll just subscribe her direct! It was nearly 20 yrs since we last spent time with her in Canada. She and her family seem well. 2007 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 4:40pm Subject: welcome JimW & Wyn Dear Jim W and Wyn, May I join everyone else in welcoming you here. you may have noted that this list is pretty active these days.... Jim W (hope you don't mind me calling you this so as not to confuse you w/ Jim A), I hope by now you're making a little headway with the Pali terms....pls feel free to remind us all to use English in brackets when introducing new terms.... --- Jim Wilson wrote: I studied Buddhism > in Korea, and i > have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese > derived Buddhist > terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to > this discussion > going on here. > I'm sure many of us here would be interested to hear a little more about your experience studying Buddhism in Korea and how you saw/see your practice. I have many Korean kids studying with me in Hong Kong but very few are interested in Buddhism at all! Wyn, please tell us a little more about yourself too. Although I know (from the others' comments) is that you've been active on another list. What aspects of the Teachings are you interested in? We look forward to hearing more from both of you here. Best rgds, Sarah 2008 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 7:40pm Subject: vinaya and satipatthana Dear Alex, I found a nice passage in the visuddmigga; I51 "what is proper resort as anchoring? It is the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthna)on which the mind is anchored;for this is said by the blessed one;Bhikkhus what is a bhikkhus resort, his own native place?It is these 4 foundations of mindfulness'Sv148 I52 Seeing fear in the slightest fault..... I53 On seeing a visible object with the eye ..'the ancients said "the eye does not see a visible object because it has no mind. The mind does not see because it has no eyes. But when there is the impingement of door and object he sees by means of the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physiscal basis. ... I54..he does not apprehend the sign of man or woman, or any sign that is a basis for defilement..;he stops at merely what is seen...he only apprehends what is really there {ie paramattha dhammas}..." End of passage. Do you see how closely this passage (taken from the Sila section) which is explaining how a monk should live (in other words vinaya) is so much in accord with the Abhidhamma? It tells us directly that satipatthana and vinaya are not to be separated. Thus, to be a monk understanding - correct understanding - of satipatthana is the most important thing. On my earlier post I just wanted to add something. I stressed that sila is merely one moment. This is true. However, sila also has the meaning of habit. We also need to know that each moment conditions the next; and so we should not be careless about them thinking "oh it is only a moment". That is an extreme. Everytime I think much about the monks life I start to get restless. I stopped studying vinaya because the beauty of it is almost overwhelming. Compared with that wide open life our dusty laylife, filled with turmoil, children, responsibilities and defilements looks pretty pathetic. However, that is our life and these things do not stop understanding. If we have awareness then at that moment we are, in essence, for a brief instant monks (or nuns). Robert 2009 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:10pm Subject: Re: teaching resources & vipassana > p.s To Amara, Tom, Pinna, > > some very exciting news (lots of lobha this end)..Ann > (Marshall Bell) as in my note above, just went out to > Vancouver airport to meet Jonothan in transit. He just > called to say she was very enthusiastic about this > group and promises to join! I had sent her a postcard > at the outset but she'd lost the details or something. > If she loses it this time, we'll just subscribe her > direct! It was nearly 20 yrs since we last spent time > with her in Canada. She and her family seem well. Dear Sarah, That's wonderful! Can't wait! You know who I really miss though? Susie! Did Jonothan get to see her at all? Thanks for your hosting us all, anumodana to you both, Amara 2010 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] vinaya and satipatthana Dear Robert, Another inspiring post you have here... >Do you see how closely this passage (taken from the Sila >section) which is explaining how a monk should live (in other >words vinaya) is so much in accord with the Abhidhamma? Yes, I do. :-))) >It tells >us directly that satipatthana and vinaya are not to be >separated. Thus, to be a monk understanding - correct >understanding - of satipatthana is the most important thing. Everything in the Tipitaka is related to each other. The Buddha tied everything down snuggly. How wonderful his wisdom was. :-))) Indeed, what the Buddha taught is beautiful at the beginning, beautiful at the middle, and beautiful at the end. >On my earlier post I just wanted to add something. I stressed >that sila is merely one moment. This is true. However, sila also >has the meaning of habit. We also need to know that each moment >conditions the next; All we have is this breath at this moment. :-))) >and so we should not be careless about them >thinking "oh it is only a moment". That is an extreme. Therefore, we can't afford to lose it. >Everytime I think much about the monks life I start to get >restless. I stopped studying vinaya because the beauty of it is >almost overwhelming. I see what you mean. Yes, life of a bhikkhu is indeed very beautiful. >Compared with that wide open life our dusty >laylife, filled with turmoil, children, responsibilities and >defilements looks pretty pathetic. However, that is our life and >these things do not stop understanding. If we have awareness >then at that moment we are, in essence, for a brief instant >monks (or nuns). Thank you for saying that for a brief moment of awareness, we are a monk (nun) for that short time period. Anumodana, Alex 2011 Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:13am Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert, > This is why understanding the difference between concept and > reality is the key. Thank you for this wonderfully compassionate post. It explains well what Sila means. :-))) I need to study the Tipitaka well. Well, later, at least... With Appreciation, Alex 2012 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 5:50am Subject: lobha for friends Dear Amara, > Dear Sarah, > > That's wonderful! Can't wait! > > You know who I really miss though? Susie! Did > Jonothan get to see > her at all? > > Thanks for your hosting us all, anumodana to you > both, > > Amara yes he had a long chat with Susie & Tadao. This is the second long chat we've had w/Susie & failed to persuade her to get a computer at home. She says she spends too much time in front of it at work & is not interested. Funnily, on that visit to Victoria 20 yrs ago she & Tadao were the first people we knew w/ a mac at home & were the ones that persuaded us to hook up! Times have changed. Tadao is teaching a Pali course at work & J. told him how much he could contribute here too...maybe! I apologise to those who don't know these people. Tadao was a japanese monk in Bkk in the 70s when we knew him (studying w/ A.Sujin). What a lot of lobha I have for past friends esp. dhamma ones)....it's very hard for me to let go....so much disappointment if they're no longer interested in studying or discussing dhamma. Still, once the understanding is there, it's there, however we choose to lead our lives. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. Sarah 2013 From: Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:28pm Subject: Ch XIV Contd. 34. Lokadhipateyyata patirupataya attani dhammeca paribhavo vangceti Lokadhipateyyata - No one can 'customize' the world according to his/her liking. One has to adjust his/her lifestyle so he/she can live without conflict. attani dhammeca paribhavo - When 'adjusting with the world' the moral decipline and qualities should not be harmed. Theres the possibility of the internal cheat that tendency to go along the modernisation and the subsequent adjusting may result in the harm to the morals. 35. mettayana mukhena raago vangceti. raga as the metta - > refer to visuddhimagga for a story regarding this 36. karunayana mukhena soko vangceti. sorrow as compassion 37. muditavihara patirupataya pahaso vangceti mudita - opponent of jealousy.... pahasa- the 'sapitika tanha' based on the 'subha' arammanas of satva and sankharas. 38. upekkhavihara patirupataya kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata vangceti kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata - 'losing hope' in kusala kamma/kusalacchanda...the cheated can live without 'trying' for dhammastudy, bhavana..he thinks hes developing upekkha. End. Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a vangcaka. The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is incalculable. The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be aware of it, and beware. 2014 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:40pm Subject: Dhamma for children Dear Dhammastudygroup members Some of you may be parents or part-time guardians of children. I haven't read the messages posted during the past year and don't know if the issue of Dhamma and children has been discussed yet. I wonder if any other list members are interested in this topic? I am a parent with two children, a daughter aged about 8.7 years old and a son aged about 7.1 years old. Although my wife isn't a self-declared Buddhist, neither is she a follower of any other religion. She is happy enough to allow me to introduce Buddhist themes to the children. While I am not present in the house, she will even read them Buddhist stories and use these as examples when explaining possible solutions to daily problems. I am delighted that both children are very interested in Buddha Dhamma and even encourage me to read them stories or to tell them something new about Buddhism. Although they are exceptionally intelligent for their ages, I think they are a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. I also don't understand it well enough myself yet. I mainly introduce them to the more worldly Buddha Dhamma and always emphasise the reasoning behind it while trying to provide examples and links to their daily life so they can see how useful and skilful the the Buddha Dhamma can be. In other words I don't encourage blind faith even though young children can be suceptible to this. I think that in the long run if understanding is based on reasoning and personal knowledge then it has a stronger foundation. The principles of the Buddha Dhamma, the reasoning and the inherent wisdom of the Buddha Dhamma can be applied in all areas of life. This is like an ability or skill that is totally portable, flexible, multi-use (?new word) and infintely beneficial. I feel it is our duty as parents to give the most valuable inheritance to our children before they leave home and before this body perishes. Perhaps some other list members can offer stories of how they have introduced Buddha Dhamma to young children or even to older children? Perhaps some list members might like to discuss the issue of introducing the Buddha Dhamma to parents or other older relations and dear friends? sincerely Michael J Jackson http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/ 2015 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:51pm Subject: was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Sarah and other interested list members Due to conditioning there is a tendency to be detailed and 'long-winded'. I am not a teacher, only a mostly ignorant student, with some shame and some good intentions, displaying various degrees of ignorance and knowledge. May the following remarks be corrected, criticsed and brought into line with the Buddha Dhamma. The main point I was trying to make in my earlier message was that instructing others about vipassana meditation is a big responsibility with consequences. Without a very good knowledge of the Dhamma both from the Tipitaka and insight through direct experience setting up to be a teacher or a student of such a teacher is frought with danger despite possibly good intentions. The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, is to recommend to anyone I meet who is interested in vipassana that they should associate with people who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of Dhamma, listen to a lot of Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course run by trained and experienced practioners, just as I have recommended in this and the earlier message. Here are some links to texts for Dhamma teachers and recommendations by the Lord Buddha that we can read online in English http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html#sorts Digha Nikaya 12 Lohicca Sutta (excerpt from a the sutta in which there are other examples of Dhamma teachers besides the one described below) There is the case where a certain teacher has not attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into homelessness. He, not having attained that goal of the contemplative life, teaches his disciples, 'This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.' His disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an intent for gnosis. They practice in a way deviating from the teacher's instructions. He should be criticized, saying, 'You, venerable sir, have not attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into homelessness. Not having attained that goal of the contemplative life, you teach your disciples, "This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness." Your disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an intent for gnosis, and practice in a way deviating from the teacher's instructions. It's just as if a man were to pursue [a woman] who pulls away, or to embrace one who turns her back. I say that such a thing is an evil, greedy deed, for what can one person do for another?' This is the first teacher who is worthy of criticism in the world, and when anyone criticizes this sort of teacher, the criticism is true, factual, righteous, & unblameworthy. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-159.html Anguttara Nikaya V.159 Udayi Sutta (another sutta with relevance to aspiring teachers of Dhamma) Perhaps participating in a list like this we are part student and part teacher. I prefer to think of myself as student because there is still so much ignorance, greed and aversion. A teacher with so much ingnorance, greed and aversion can knowingly and unknowingly lead others astray, behave badly and bring the Sasana into disrepute. When we mention a relevant sutta or personal experience we are not teaching so much as exchanging information among friends in the Dhamma. I was attending the Foundation in Bangkok about two weeks ago waiting to attend the Saturday afternoon English Dhamma Discussion and sat and listened to Ajahn Santi leading a discussion of Vinaya in Thai. As always during these discuussions, the audience is encouraged to go to a microphone and raise questions. One of the long time followers introduced two new people (Thais), who had come down from Chiang Mai on the way to enter a meditation retreat in Bangkok. Ajahn Santi discouraged them from going to the meditation retreat and encouraged them instead to listen to the Dhamma, just as Tahn Ajahn Sujin and Nina Van Gorkom do. I saw the couple in the audience again last weekend and assume that they did not go to the meditation centre after all. (This Ajahn Santi is a Thai lay man and not the same as the ethnic German Ajahn Santi who has been a Bhikkhu for 20-30 years and mostly lives in Chiang Mai). I agree with Tahn Ajahn Sujin, Ajahn Santi, Nina Van Gorkom and others who say that we should study the Dhamma so we know more about the phenomena that arise. I am glad that I had read widely before I started meditating. However, I disagree with anyone who says that meditation is always a waste of time or a useless activity. I understand that phenomena arise and pass away naturally without any control and that to sit down thinking 'I am going to purify this mind of mine' is wrong view. Nevertheless, I still believe it is wholesome to sit and watch the breathing to calm the body and mind. I believe it is skilful to 'choicelessly' note all the phenomena arising at six sense doors, as in satipatthana. This is intermittent and there are moments of sati, moments of day dreaming and so forth. Sati is not under any person's control and cannot be fixed or held on to. I understand that many meditators get confused between sati and samadhi. Sati is not holding onto a single aramana or object. Sati arises with other mental phenonmena. I understand that vipassana isn't about holding onto a single object like samadhi pratice. I have never done any vipassana meditation in which I tried to keep focused on one object or aramana. Vipassana is seeing reality as it appears here and now at the six sense doors. It wasn't until I did vipassana that I became convinced that Buddhist vipassana is the way. Books, including the Tipitaka were great to read and even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the phenomena at the six sense doors and reflecting on that experience in the light of the Dhamma teaching that proved it to me. I am not here referring to any supernatural events, bright lights, voices of deities etc. I am not here claiming to have achieved Nibbana or any other supreme state etc. Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and practice, but I find that calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of breathing is a lot like a quick spring clean through the mind and body with opposite effects to those of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or sex on TV etc. When we sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting is a blameless activity and that there is no person sitting or breathing etc. Sarah wrote: >What is an experienced practitioner? I understand that this term may be confusing. I mean some one who has been on retreats and has the confidence of those who have been on retreats as one who understands vipassana. This will be a debatable point for many. Each of us must make a choice about this. Followers of this or that meditation technique or this or that guru will provide different advice. We each have to decide for our selves. Of course we should be aware of the Kalama Sutta and other warnings of the Lord Buddha when choosing a teacher. Sarah wrote: >The Buddha taught that vipassana is the development of wisdom so why >should it be reduced to a technique which is learnt on >a course? Vipassana may not be learned on a course too. Some people will benefit while others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or studying Tahn Ajahn Sujin's books and talks. Some will benefit and others will not. Even among those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little etc. I don't think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a course. That would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to something learned by reading a book or participating in an internet list. Vipassana is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activities. Sarah wrote: >I think that when there is no direct understanding of >the reality that appears at this moment, there is no >knowledge of what vipassana is. This applies to us >all. Precisely. Sarah wrote: >If we have the idea of having that understanding >and being aware next month during a special course, it >shows a lack of confidence in the power of >understanding now. It also suggests a lack of >knowledge about the objects of understanding, the >realities that need to be known now. Yes I agree with you here. However, for people who are still finding their way through the books and various recommendations to this or that teacher, I think a 'special course' provides a worldly way to begin study and vipassana. Then as we begin to really understand, we can see that going on courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the Buddha Dhamma and that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is wrong view. I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not restricted to special courses or retreats. But going on a retreat may help the arising of right view on this point. I haven't been on retreats taught in the west or outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not before then, everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at all times regardless. In response to my suggestion to Sotujana to examine motives for wanting to teach vipassana Sarah wrote: >I can't say for anyone else what their various motives >are and I agree with you that we need to be very >honest about our different (wholesome and unwholesome) >motives. However, the greatest gift is the gift of the >Buddha's teachings. If we can help others to >understand a little about the true meaning of >vipassana (development of understanding), then this is >very praiseworthy. If we wait until we're experts, we >may be dead! As I said to Sotujana, I believe that by >reading, considering and developing more understanding >we'll be able to help better. Although the Buddha Dhamma may be the greatest gift from one to another. I wonder if teaching a 'basic vipassana' course is the same thing as giving the gift of Buddha Dhamma. All the cautions in the previous message were attempting to point at this issue. A vipassana meditation course can be almost anything, depending on what the person who sets up to be teacher wishes. Perhaps in ignorance, it is quite possible that very little Buddha Dhamma is being given, only more ignorance, fantasy, greed, aversion, and so on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the guise of Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves and their students. After death is rebirth and and death and rebirth and death and so on. Don't be so attached to this life. It will soon end and another will begin. Are you afraid to go to sleep? You know you will wake because you have a lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death is not so obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is certain unless we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books? Wouldn't it be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives eh! Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in ignorance and suffer the consequences. This point is very very important. When we criticise meditators for sitting and wanting to change themselves etc. are we not being hypocritical for not criticing those who would want to change other people. Is there not a self wanting to change some one, here or there, in both instances? Motives are good but ignorance is present in both cases. The presence of ignornace will create suffering and rebirth etc. Everything must be done with great care and diligence. Sarah wrote that there are problems with searching for 'vipassana' on the internet because it brings up a range of different understandings. Why do you want to control which understandings appear? Yes there are some right and wrong views. How do you know yours are right views? We each must find the way. I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have right view or at least have right view most of the time. Others might say that they have more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most teachers will cite the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the sacred texts etc. We all interpret things according to our accumulated conditioning. We find our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your right view is better than someone else's? Sarah wrote about spending a long time doing vipassana mediation practices in India and Sri Lanka but had a wonderful experience when Ann introduced Nina's book and some tapes : >After reading the first page of ADL >I was never inclined to 'meditate' again....Realities >are anatta, beyond control. Behind my practice for >all this time had been a lurking idea of self who >could be aware. I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn Ajahn Sujin but haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and ignorant, I don't know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the group about find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It isn't that I disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the belief. Practicing vipassana meditation with the lurking idea of a self who can be aware is probably common with all beginners, no matter how long they have practiced. This goes for all areas of life and not just meditation. The lurking idea of self is present for most of us whatever we do. As ordinary people puttujanna (?spelling) we need to realise this point. Sarah I hope that you and other Dhammastudygroup list members can be patient with me. Sarah thank you for prompting me to consider these issues in more detail and try to put them into words. I am trying to find a way to explain this properly to Than Ajahn Sujin and the others in the Saturday English language discussion group. It is very hard. I venture to say it is many times harder than writing a PhD but also far more rewarding. It may be that at some point in this struggle I will realise that it is pointless or that it is over or something like that. Who knows? Sincerely Michael http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/ 2016 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 2:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children Dear Michael, a very interesting post. As I have three children and am a sol father at the moment I will add a little. --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear Dhammastudygroup members > > > Although they are exceptionally intelligent for their ages, I > think they are > a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. I think intelligence is not the main issue. Whether they will ultimately be interested in Dhamma depends on many conditions including their accumualation from past lives. They may be genius' but not be interested or they might be slow and yet through accumulations come to have great confidence in Dhamma. Paramattha dhamma is hard to understand for all of us. For my children I stress a lot on kamma and vipaka. I don't talk about this as different jatis("nature" i.e. kusala-wholesome, akusala-unwholesome, vipaka-result and kiriya- inoperative) but we discuus result and cause so that they can differentiate the two. By learning about kamma there is understanding that everything is conditioned and this is a strong basis for understanding anatta. I also don't understand it > well enough > myself yet. I mainly introduce them to the more worldly > Buddha Dhamma and > always emphasise the reasoning behind it while trying to > provide examples > and links to their daily life so they can see how useful and > skilful the the > Buddha Dhamma can be. It is all Dhamma. Sometimes we can learn as much from a jataka story as we can from the Abhidhamma. It is so right that you show that it is all daily life. Not some exotic ritual they should do while in a temple. Robert 2017 From: wynn Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome JimW & Wyn Reply below. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:40 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome JimW & Wyn > Wyn, please tell us a little more about yourself too. > Although I know (from the others' comments) is that > you've been active on another list. What aspects of > the Teachings are you interested in? > Well, i am not good at introducing myself!!!! What do you want to know about me? You can sent questions to me privately. Sorry for the inconvenience caused. 2018 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 5:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana Dear michael, I write only a little now as I guess sarah will reply. --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, is to > recommend to anyone > I meet who is interested in vipassana that they should > associate with people > who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of Dhamma, listen > to a lot of > Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course run by > trained and > experienced practioners. How is one to know who teaching vipassana properly if one has not studied the teachings in detail? Anyone who goes on any sort of meditation course will experience different phenomena than their daily life. They will feel calmer because there are not the usual distrations, they will experience concentration, right or wrong, to some degree. And they will hear Dhamma. Imagine if they did not hear any Dhamma but were simply given a technique to practise. They would still have "experiences" which they would interpret according to their teachers words. As it is they do get Dhamma taught to them. But are they able to separate the benefit of reflecting on Dhamma from the other effects caused by these special practices. If not there is still confusion about what the path entails. I may be wrong but in my study of the Tipitika so far I haven't read anywhere where laypeople were asked to go on meditaion retreats. Even in the commenatries and sub-commentaries I have never seen this. (I know very little pali so if someone has seen a reference please tell me). If it does turn out that there is no such thing in the Tipitika doesn't that mean that those who teach in this way have to provide very good reasons why they do so? If it is simply a case of getting a group of people in a congenial situation where they can discuss and listen to Dhamma and apply according to their bent then of course there would be situations like this in the tipitika; but I had the idea that the meditation places are run in very strict ways and people must follow special techniques? > Vipassana is seeing reality as it appears here and now at the > six sense > doors. Could you describe this in more detail. > > It wasn't until I did vipassana that I became convinced that > Buddhist > vipassana is the way. Books, including the Tipitaka were > great to read and > even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the phenomena at > the six sense > doors and reflecting on that experience in the light of the > Dhamma teaching > that proved it to me. Are not the objects arising here and now the same as on a meditation retreat? > Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and practice, but I > find that > calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of breathing > is a lot like a > quick spring clean through the mind and body with opposite > effects to those > of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or sex on TV > etc. When we > sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting is a > blameless activity > and that there is no person sitting or breathing etc. Sati can arise and be aware at any moment. How are moments of awareness different while watching TV? Are there not objects arising at the six doors. While we are lost in the story there is no awareness but it can certainly occur while watching sex or even having it. Is there any feeling that you are being "spiritual" while sitting calmly? Are you sure you are not mistaking calm and samadhi for sati? I think we can say that at times quiet places are conducive to contemplation, but so easy to cling to them and therefore neglect the other parts of our life that are more frequent. Sitting is not a blameless activity if there is any moha or tanha or dosa. That is why we reduce life to just one moment. You write that you know there is no one sitting but even "sitting" is a concept; the realities are changing rapidly. One moment perhaps sati but then how many without? > others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or > studying Tahn Ajahn > Sujin's books and talks. Some will benefit and others will > not. Even among > those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little > etc. I don't > think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a > course. That > would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to > something > learned by reading a book or participating in an internet > list. Vipassana > is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activities. > Yes very true. Actually soon after I met Khun Sujin I went along to a Zen place as some friends invited me. And we went throough the rituals and the sitting and the fast walking and the chanting. I told Khun sujin; and the way I told her indicated that I thought this was not a time for awareness. She said "awareness can arise anytime". As you note there are more than a few of Khun Sujin's students who don't seem to get "it". Even amongst those who appear to undersatnd there can be changes; last year one of her longtime students and a teacher in his own right suddenly announced he was going his own way, that he knew better. The thing is, as you well explain, the Dhamma is most profound. One of the things I appreciate about Khun Sujin is that she stresses this. On the other hand it seems that some of the meditation people would say it is quite straightforward, simply follow instructions. It is far too deep for such reductionism. > > > Then as we begin to really understand, we can see > that going on > courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the > Buddha Dhamma and > that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is > wrong view. I think we are pretty close in how we see things but how many do see this? Why not say it from the beginning? > > I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not > restricted to > special courses or retreats. But going on a retreat may help > the arising of > right view on this point. I haven't been on retreats taught > in the west or > outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not > before then, > everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at > all times > regardless. To the extent that Dhamma is taught to that extent people will benefit. If they teach aspects wrongly to that extent people are misled. If they indicate that vipassana is a technique isn't that misleading? Do they explain that sati cannot be made to occur just by sitting and concentrating? Encouraging people to recollect the satipatthana? Anyone can say "please have sati all day". But how? It takes right conditions. > > > Although the Buddha Dhamma may be the greatest gift from one > to another. I > wonder if teaching a 'basic vipassana' course is the same > thing as giving > the gift of Buddha Dhamma. All the cautions in the previous > message were > attempting to point at this issue. A vipassana meditation > course can be > almost anything, depending on what the person who sets up to > be teacher > wishes. Perhaps in ignorance, it is quite possible that very > little Buddha > Dhamma is being given, only more ignorance, fantasy, greed, > aversion, and so > on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the > guise of > Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves > and their > students. > Well exactly, you write exceedingly well and I agree with every word. You know you will wake because you > have a > lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death > is not so > obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is > certain unless > we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books? > Wouldn't it > be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives > eh! We have confidence in rebirth by seeing the present moment. For sure the more there is study of this moment the clearer conditions become (even though still very unclear).`As one sees that every moment has conditions how could we think that conditions could suddenly stop. It is like doubting that the sun will rise tommorow. > > Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in > ignorance and suffer > the consequences. Yes teaching vipassana wrongly is a heavy matter. > > I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have > right view or > at least have right view most of the time. Others might say > that they have > more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most > teachers will cite > the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the > sacred texts etc. > We all interpret things according to our accumulated > conditioning. We find > our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your > right view is > better than someone else's? Well put. However we can also find a few teachers who, when they find that the Tipitika is not in accord with their teaching, will say something like "theory and practice are different"; or "this is a special techique that was lost"; or "this is a later addition to the Tipitika" (meaning the part that is in conflict with their ideas isn't really Buddhism); or "the commentaries misrepresent the Buddha" (meaning "my" way is better than the ancients.)I guess though from what you have written that these teachers are not ones that interest you. > > > I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn > Ajahn Sujin but > haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and > ignorant, I don't > know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the > group about > find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It > isn't that I > disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the > belief. Fine and I don't think anyone really wants to convince you Michael. We will put forward our interpretation of the Dhamma and hope that others will correct us. Even if we are right how could you suddenly change your ideas? It is all uncontrollable. Nonetheless could you give us details where you think Acharn and Sujin depart from Dhamma and where you are sceptical? If you are correct it is in all our best interests to know. As far as any wrong view goes I too never "doubt the sincerity of the belief"; because wrong view of any level is always accomapnied with lobha (attachment) and this applies to subtle wrong practice which is a type of view also. And, as I can tell from your thoughful letter, you are well aware that wrongview might be very refined indeed but still the level of attachment to it can be of a high degree. Gayan, today translated the words of a Sri lankan Abhidhamma teacher who said, at the end of his book explaining the way we mistake akusala for kusala (unwholesome for wholesome), that it was quite possible he was under a delusion of this type somewhere and so be aware and beware. This is the type of man who has the best interests of Dhamma at heart and is not one who overestimates (adhimana). Michael I like your letter alot. You express these matters clearly. However we need to discuss many more details. Satipatthana is no easy matter and we help each other by pointing out the difficulties. Robert 2019 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:02pm Subject: Re: Ch XIV > Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a vangcaka. > The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is incalculable. > The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be aware > of it, and beware. Dear Gayan, Anumodana in sharing the complete list with us, and if you feel like a line by line translation of the Ven. author's book, we would love to read it. Please don't worry if he might have had vancaka delusions too, as long as we are not the ariya they would be able to arise even while there is the real kusala arising as well, only at different moments and possible to different degrees for distinct individuals. Again, many people have benefited from your introduction of this list to their attention, so anumodana for this opportunity to study it in some detail, Amara 2020 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 11:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Alex, --- wrote: > Please give me some > examples so that I can > understand how these Three Baskets complement each > other in > explaining the truth. I was about a third of the way through reading the PTS Vinaya when I discoverd dsg, and it's sort of been on hold since then. However, it is wonderful reading and I'm looking forward to getting back to it eventually. Off hand, I can't offer an example of instruction on the subject of paramattha dhamma, though I'd be surprised to find nothing. In the Buddha's explanations of his reasons for imposing new rules, there are often very interesting references to topics other than discipline. I'll try to find something pertinent. That said, to me, the most immediately obvious way in which the Vinaya complements the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma is by actually containing them, in the sense that the Vinaya IS the structure of the Bhikku-Sangha which has maintained and perpetuated the entire Buddhadhamma for twenty-five centuries so that you and I can still discover it today. Apparently, for several hundred years, the Suttanta were preserved soley by the verbal recitation of monks. It never ceases to amaze me that this simple structure, consisting only of these 226 precepts, has made it possible for this commune to continue an unbroken existence for such a long time. Interestingly, too, there were corrupt monks aplenty even in the Buddha's day--the Vinaya is designed in such a way as to take the inevitability of that fact into account. The Sangha survives. With the (also inevitable) deterioration of the teaching, the role of the Bhikku-Sangha in the future remains to be seen. Obviously with the availability of the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma (not to mention the Vinaya) to laypeople via print and electronic media, the Bhikku-Sanghas' role as the more or less exclusive 'container' of the Dhamma has obviously changed already. Still, gratitude for the role it has played in the past in carrying the Dhamma all the way into the twenty-first century where I can find it (not to mention the great importance the Buddha clearly placed upon it) is more than enough to inspire me with great respect for the Vinaya and its living manifestation, the Bikkhu-Sangha, for the rest of this life. Forgive the long-winded response. When I have time, I'll try to have a look around for references to paramattha dhamma in the Vinaya. Regards, Ma'am, Mike 2021 From: A T Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Mike, Thank you for taking time answer my elementary question. Truly, I appreciate the survival of the Buddha's Teachings due to the disciplines of the Sangha. Without the Disciplines, no doubt, we cannot have a chance to study the Teachings now. Anumodana, Sir, Alex 2022 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > On the other hand, for people > like me, who > are not under any such rule, I may continue gazing > mindlessly, > heedlessly, lustfully and blissfully. This is such a good point. All the sila are (maybe foremost) protection. If observed even without much understanding, they protect 'oneself' as well as others from akusala kamma vipaka. From this viewpoint, a monk is much better 'protected' than are you or I... > This is why understanding the difference between > concept and > reality is the key. WE have a story of sila - that > is we believe > that 'we" are keeping sila or not keeping sila. But > sila is > simply a mental reality, a dhamma, that arises for > the briefest > possible moment before passing away. Yes, discernment again--are we regarding the moment of sila or the concept of sila? For me, it's pretty much always the concept--I know because there's always the sense that 'I'm' keeping or breaking the sila. If it were real awareness, for that moment--no 'I'. > This is a misunderstanding. There can be moments of > sila even > while one is drunk. For example, you are drunk, > someone offers > you more beer but sati arises and you refuse it. > This is sila. > As always only by breaking down 'life" into just one > moment can > we understand this. There truly is no person, only > moments, of 4 > different jatis. This is the crux of the matter. Yes, and thanks again for this instructive response. mn 2023 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Difficulties Dear Jim, Welcome to the group! I'm looking forward to reading your perspectives. I'm not aware of anyone else here with a Korean Buddhist background. --- Jim Wilson wrote: > I am wondering > how to gain access to it. Help would be appreciated. By now someone else has probably already directed you to: http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html I'm new to the group too, and have found this extremely helpful. There are several other pali glossaries available on the internet; if you're interested please let me know (off-list) and I'll forward the URL's. Regards, Mike 2024 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael, --- Michael J Jackson wrote: Just want to take moment to say 'thanks' for this very thoughtful post. I'm EXTREMELY glad you haven't been put off by differences of opinion expressed here. I'll try to respond at greater length by and by, and look forward to reading more from you soon. Regards, Mike 2025 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael, --- Michael J Jackson wrote: Just want to take moment to say 'thanks' for this very thoughtful post. I'm EXTREMELY glad you haven't been put off by differences of opinion expressed here. I'll try to respond at greater length by and by, and look forward to reading more from you soon. Regards, Mike 2027 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Dear Robert, An afterthought: When trying this again recently, it occurred to me that I hadn't, in the past, been 'watching the dosa' at all. I'd been attempting to 'watch' the concept of the previously existing dosa, to no effect of course, since sati can't take an unreality as an object (thanks to you all for this information!). In the attempt I'm describing, my attention switched to the present 'hardness'--immediately it was extremely clear that the 'dosa' I thought I'd been 'watching' was long gone--so completely gone that it was exactly as if it had never arisen and. Very interesting... Regards, mn 2028 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 4:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching dosa', thinking & concepts Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > As we know, there can be reflection on dosa, for > example, both wisely and unwisely, with awareness > and > without awareness. Excellent point, and I really didn't know it until recently... > It's very easy to reflect with > lobha (wishing it away, however subtly) or with > dosa(again with different degrees) or with that good > old moha... ...definitely... > So often when there is an idea of > watching > (I'm not saying this is so in Michael J's case), > there > is an idea of a 'watcher'... I'm certainly not either. In my case however, that ditthi was (is?) nearly omnipresent... > I've been meaning to (belatedly as usual) add > something to some of your earlier posts about > thinking > and thoughts (concepts), but I'm not sure whether > it's > about to be a dose of overkill after Robert's & > Amara's excellent comments... Please! 'I' needs all the overkill 'I' can get! > You'll have left many of these behind at the kiddie > table, so I'm not suggesting there is anything here > you don't know! There's plenty, believe me... > O.K. to get a few points quite clear: > > 1. Thinking (not necessarily in words) thinks about > concepts i.e. stories. Thinking is real, the stories > are not. Right--got that now, didn't before make the distinction between thinking and concepts. > 2. When we talk about good or wholesome thoughts, > we > are referring to the citta and cetasikas that do the > thinking, not the thoughts. Right! (ditto for akusala thoughts I presume?) > As we discussed earlier, > we can say 'have less dosa', for example, with many > different kinds of citta and with right or wrong > view > about self. ...right... > I might add that just because there is a lurking > idea > of self doesn't mean the thinking cannot be > wholesome...for example at the moment of > consideration > for another, when one is concerned for their > welfare, > it's kusala, there is metta (maybe) and it's not > unique to Buddhists! At that moment the citta is > calm. ...right... > 3. When we say, or the Buddha says, stop the bad > thoughts or change these for good thoughts, it means > understand and be aware of the unwholesome thinking > at > this moment (or of the unwholesome cetasikas to be a > little more precise). Yes. A useful distinction and reflection, I think. > At a thinking/intellectual > level > it can also mean think about useful or 'correct' > concepts and not about useless ones. ...right... > 4. Whatever is taught, even if a sutta is referring > to the development of jhanas, the essence is that > all > realities are anatta. Listeners don't necessarily > need to be told this in every sentence. True. Though in my case, it might help... > 5. It is the understanding of realities that is > important when we use conventional language whether > we > are discussing abhidhamma details or the weather. > The > daily life and language don't change. The > understanding does. ...right. > 6. The understanding of samatha can also develop in > daily life if there is clear understanding of the > objects of samatha and how these can calm the mind > at > this moment. I'm beginning to see this--barely. > With the development of satipatthana, > there is less and less clinging to different kinds > of > kusala, but the understanding understands the value > of > any moment of kusala at any level. Right! Understanding understands... > 7. Sometimes we think we may have wasted time > following a wrong practice for a long time. You may > feel you didn't learn anything useful in the Zen > monastery and sometimes I think this about my time > in > the temple in Sri lanka. But it's just thinking. > There > were moments of understanding at some level, some > seeds were being planted in order for other > teachings > to make more sense later. I suppose that's true (actually a Theravada monastery and a Theravada meditation center. All my Zen experience was strictly amateur...). Some people have to learn the hard way... > 8. We may hear or reflect (as in your example of > the > Twofold Thought Sutta) on the danger of harmful > thought. For some while hearing this there will be > conditions for panna to arise at the level of > satipatthana. For others it may be a condition for > wholesome thought. It depends on the understanding > at > that moment. We need to remember when reading the > suttas, that most the listeners had developed very > high levels of panna and did not need to have the > realities stressed at every point. It's important to > know the difference between direct awareness and > thinking. Understood. > 9. We shouldn't underestimate the power of panna. if > we think we have to work it all out intellectually > first in detail and that it's too difficult to be > directly aware of a reality such as seeing or > visible > object at this moment, this is a condition for there > not to be any awareness or understanding! Right--a dangerous obstacle... > 10. As I'm sure you realize by now, the panna is the > key, rather than the cetana, out of the 'vicious > cycle' you and Sukin discussed sometime back. Yes! I'm thinking of it as 'discernment' lately. > 10. you suggested in a post that we need to > 'deliberately' pick up a micchaditthi that's less > miccha than what you just put down...closer and > closer > - (sorry I'm not quoting you exactly)... ...no, that's close enough... > but I think > it's not so much a matter of level steps as hiking > up > and down some rugged mountains (hopefully each one > higher than the last!)..There are moments of kusala > at > different levels and then moments of akusala at > different levels. This remains true whether we're in > the zen monastery, at the astrologer's or here. The > only difference is that with the development of more > understanding, amongst those mountain peaks, there > can > be moments of this higher level of kusala > (satipatthana) which slowly turns the spotlight on > the > other mountains and crevices and valleys .... Interesting simile. I'll have to mull this one over... > 11. People before the Buddha's time attained jhanas > and high levels of samatha practice. This was not > something new. The teaching of anatta and the > development of vipassana was. Right! > Mike, I really don't know if anything here is of any > help to you or anyone else. Pls pick me up on any > mistakes I've made or anything that is > confusing....sometimes I say what is clear or helpful > to myself but the opposite to others! This is all of tremendous help. I still am definitely new at this and can use all the help I can get. > As Gayan would > say, I'm just going to click anyway! And as I said to Gayan, I'm glad you clicked. Thanks as always, Mike 2029 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Dear Mike, When dosa isn't present it isn't present. Now whether you watch, don't watch, try to have it don't try to have it, dosa cannot stay all the time. It has to have the right conditions to be be present. Even someone who has never heard any dhamma, done any meditation or whatever will know there are times when dosa is absent and when it is not. Most of the time when it is absent there is lobha. And this is life: vipaka (result of kamma) arising at the doors and then following that cittas with either dosa, or moha or lobha (aversion, ignorance, greed). Because of these defilements we do this and do that and do other things too; and these condition new vipaka. This is the round of birth and death and it never stops even for a moment over all our billions of lives. Sometimes after the vipaka we have not defilements but kusala (wholesomeness). This can be divided into two types: with panna(wisdom) or without. And because of this we do such things as giving, or we develop samattha and all the other good actions. However, these also condition vipaka and so keep the round of birth and death spinning. Only the development of satipatthana can understand it all and only that special type of awareness leads away from rebirth. Even when we feel very unhappy there can be moments of sati associated with panna arising in between the other cittas with dosa and thus some understanding of it all as anatta. Now was what you described sati of satipatthana? Really I can't say- these matters have to be known each for oneself. If it was good - but any clinging to it won't help it come in the future. As your example perhaps indicates when citta takes another object, such as a parammattha dhamma (eg hardness) and sees it as paramattha there cannot be dosa at that time because dosa relies so much on avijja (ignorance) "darting among concepts." The more the world is broken down into paramattha dhammas the less avijja runs among concepts. Some people have more tendencies to be aware of colour than of hardness for example, others (as Amara noted recently) completely neglect awareness of dhammas when eating. This is all by accumulations and conditions. I used to be very careful about citta - was it with dosa or lobha etc. In hong kong Sarah reminded me that these kilesa are conditioned by the different objects that arise at the senses doors . This was very useful as it conditioned more study of the different dhammas at the doors - such as color and sound. I still remember her saying this over 9 years ago - it was that useful. Jonothan once indicated to me that when we are very concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a clinging to self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma into psychology. (Actually he said much more and much better so please ask him to explain). Anyway as you are seeing the study of realities is fascinaiting and provided it is done without desire (such as wanting results or trying to change things) most useful. Easy to do with the idea of self doing it though. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > An afterthought: When trying this again recently, it occurred > to me that I hadn't, in the past, been 'watching the dosa' at > all. I'd been attempting to 'watch' the concept of the > previously existing dosa, to no effect of course, since sati > can't take an unreality as an object (thanks to you all for > this information!). In the attempt I'm describing, my > attention switched to the present 'hardness'--immediately it > was extremely clear that the 'dosa' I thought I'd been > 'watching' was long gone--so completely gone that it was > exactly as if it had never arisen and. Very interesting... > Regards, > mn > > 2030 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Dear Robert, I had some misgivings about this as soon as I'd sent it. Something didn't seem quite right. I'll cut up your response a little to illustrate: --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > When dosa isn't present it isn't present. Now > whether you watch, > don't watch, try to have it don't try to have it, > dosa cannot > stay all the time. It has to have the right > conditions to be be > present. Of course... > Even someone who has never heard any > dhamma, done any > meditation or whatever will know there are times > when dosa is > absent and when it is not. Most of the time when it > is absent > there is lobha. Yes, or moha (maybe even more often?) > And this is life: vipaka (result of > kamma) > arising at the doors and then following that cittas > with either > dosa, or moha or lobha (aversion, ignorance, greed). ...exactly... > Because of > these defilements we do this and do that and do > other things > too; and these condition new vipaka. This is the > round of birth > and death and it never stops even for a moment over > all our > billions of lives. ...right... > Sometimes after the vipaka we have not defilements > but kusala > (wholesomeness). This can be divided into two types: > with > panna(wisdom) or without. And because of this we do > such things > as giving, or we develop samattha and all the other > good > actions. However, these also condition vipaka and so > keep the > round of birth and death spinning. Only the > development of > satipatthana can understand it all and only that > special type > of awareness leads away from rebirth. Yes--my working hypothesis, anyway. > Even when we feel very unhappy there can be moments > of sati > associated with panna arising in between the other > cittas with > dosa and thus some understanding of it all as > anatta. Yes... > Now was what you described sati of satipatthana? No, I don't think so. But I can't be sure--most notable was a sense of surprise at the sudden absence of dosa. Still, this was obviously retrospective. > Really I can't > say- these matters have to be known each for > oneself. If it was > good - but any clinging to it won't help it come in > the future. Right! > As your example perhaps indicates when citta takes > another > object, such as a parammattha dhamma (eg hardness) > and sees it > as paramattha there cannot be dosa at that time > because dosa > relies so much on avijja (ignorance) "darting among > concepts." Yes... > The more the world is broken down into paramattha > dhammas the > less avijja runs among concepts. Right--just moments (though I'm not claiming to know this from direct experience!) > Some people have > more > tendencies to be aware of colour than of hardness > for example, > others (as Amara noted recently) completely neglect > awareness of > dhammas when eating. This is all by accumulations > and > conditions. > I used to be very careful about citta - was it with > dosa or > lobha etc. In hong kong Sarah reminded me that these > kilesa are > conditioned by the different objects that arise at > the senses > doors. (in part--correct?) > This was very useful as it conditioned more > study of the > different dhammas at the doors - such as color and > sound. I > still remember her saying this over 9 years ago - it > was that > useful. Thanks--I'll bear that in mind... > Jonothan once indicated to me that when we > are very > concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a > clinging to > self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma into > psychology. Yes, this hits the nail on the head, and accounts for my misgiving. Clearly there was the desire present to be dosa-free, and the idea that I could 'achieve' that. > (Actually he said much more and much better so > please ask him to > explain). I hope he might pick up on this... > Anyway as you are seeing the study of realities is > fascinating oh, yes-- > and provided it is done without desire (such as > wanting results Hmm...well, maybe some day... > or trying to change things) most useful. Easy to do > with the > idea of self doing it though. Yes, and that's the crux I think. Oh, well--just an interesting moment--helpful inasmuch as it led to this instructive response. Thanks, as always... mn 2031 From: Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch XIV Dear Amara, Thanks very much for your compassionate comments. Actually I dont have any doubts about the venerable because the Warning Line is his. He himself warns us that he might be under the influence of a vancaka, because mind is so diversy and tricky. Actually there are no particular dhammas as vancakas, but akusalas become vancakas because of there cheating ability So he says the number of vancakas is incalculable. What he has done here is commenting on the 38 lines in Nettippakarana atthakatha using his abhidhamma knowledge. As the focus must be set on the lines in netti-a, the Pali experts can interpret those lines, using their experience and knowledge. About the translation, what I did was translate the words in his book, What I intended was to introduce the title and subject of vancaka to my dhamma friends. But I cant guarantee that i have translated them to what the venerable has intended. I am not a translator and am not an expert in any language. So I think that as now you know about the vancaka, it is 'safe' to get the help of experts so the exact meaning of the pali phrases in netti commentary can be extracted. It would be really brilliant if a sinhala-english expert can translate the works of the venerable, they are really a treasure. rgds. 2032 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch XIV Thanks for the clear explanation Gayan. Amara will, I guess, pass this on to the Pali commitee. I am one of those who was born on the outer borders of Jambudipa where it is (or was- internet is changing things) hard to hear Dhamma. Also I am not like Michael or Jon who can listen and read in Thai, so must miss much of the wondeful teachings. You have the advantage of being able to read and listen in English and Singhala - it is very helpful. One thing I do have is the kamma condition to be able to read your translation which was really great. I hope it can be edited and put on the web for all someday. Robert --- wrote: > > > > > > Dear Amara, > > Thanks very much for your compassionate comments. > > Actually I dont have any doubts about the venerable because > the Warning Line is > his. > He himself warns us that he might be under the influence of a > vancaka, because > mind is so diversy and tricky. > Actually there are no particular dhammas as vancakas, but > akusalas become > vancakas because of there cheating ability > So he says the number of vancakas is incalculable. > > What he has done here is commenting on the 38 lines in > Nettippakarana atthakatha > using his abhidhamma knowledge. > > As the focus must be set on the lines in netti-a, the Pali > experts can interpret > those lines, using their experience and knowledge. > > About the translation, what I did was translate the words in > his book, > What I intended was to introduce the title and subject of > vancaka to my dhamma > friends. > But I cant guarantee that i have translated them to what the > venerable has > intended. > I am not a translator and am not an expert in any language. > > So I think that as now you know about the vancaka, it is > 'safe' to get the help > of experts so the exact meaning of the pali phrases in netti > commentary can be > extracted. > > It would be really brilliant if a sinhala-english expert can > translate the works > of the venerable, they are really a treasure. > > > > rgds. > > > 2033 From: Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:26pm Subject: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear friends, I want to make a request now. It would be an immense help for the ppl in the list here if you can discuss the suttas and teachings about the 'samma ditthi'. This will really help in understanding the paramatta dhammas. Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has explaind how a training person in the 8 fold path looks at things. I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in an earlier post, I like to hear your understandings and comments on the suttas on samma ditthi. as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati' where as a sekha would do ' ma manni' and an arahant would do 'na mannati'. Thanks 2034 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 6:28pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > It would be an immense help for the ppl in the list here if you can discuss the > suttas and teachings about the 'samma ditthi'. > This will really help in understanding the paramatta dhammas. Dear Gayan, You have touched upon the heart of the Buddha's teachings, samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika) or right view or understanding of realities as they really are, the only way to end samsara and the only thing other religions ignore. While faith is required in all other religions, the Buddha encourages us to prove his words ourselves, and instead of telling us that he is a God who can help us in exchange for our faith and obedience, he tells us that we must do the work ourselves as he had done... Although his immense beneficience in helping others is beyond words, and we only have to study his hard earned teachings to follow him on the path that he discovered after zillions of eons of preparation. Panna on the most basic intellectual level would be to know about kamma, about how things arise, how they are under no one's control, even the Buddha's- otherwise he would have made us all enlightened without having to do anything, about the eternal samsara caused by kamma for each individual, and about how to end it all, with the right conditions. Most importantly, how to accumulate the right conditions, or panna to the level required in order to eliminate wrong view entirely, and after that, all kilesa, even the finest and most hidden ones. I am sure many people such as Robert, better versed in quoting the Tipitaka than I am, would come up with many suttas to help you understand this, so for my part I would like you to look at some of Khun Sujin's explanations, I quote from Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VIII Vipassana-Bhavana in the advanced section of : For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly are. The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and know that they still have all the kilesa. They must not desire to eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because they must first eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to realities that arise concurrently as the selves, entities and people. Only then would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, respectively. Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects? The same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense contact. Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way to practice to develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is kayanupassana-satipatthana. 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is vedananupassana-satipatthana. 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is cittanupassana-satipatthana. 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is dhammanupassana-satipatthana. (...) It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, even including this lifetime each day since our birth. Those who understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are would therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and examining the dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to compose satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take note, examine and study the characteristics of the realities appearing according to what one has heard and understood. All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya or when the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. Those who develop panna are straightforward. When satipatthana arises they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati. When satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The perseverance that arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. Sanvarapadhana is the perseverance in not allowing akusala-dhamma (that has not arisen) to arise. Pahanapadhana is the perseverance in abandoning akusala-dhamma that has arisen. Bhavanapadhana is the perseverance in making kusala-dhamma (that has not arisen) arise. Anurakkhanapadhana is the perseverance in developing to the most steadfast and complete the kusala-dhamma that has already arisen. The perseverance that form the 4 sammappadhana would be basis for the success, together with other sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently with realities that are the 4 iddhipada: 1) Chandiddhipada is the chanda-cetasika or the satisfaction from noting, examining and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing as they really are. (Sammohavinodani Atthakatha Vibbhangapakarana Iddhipadavibbhanganidesa)Achieving results based on gratification is like a minister's son who is not remiss in his duties in serving the king, thus receiving titles to that affect. 2) Viriyiddhipada is the viriya-cetasika, the perseverance in taking note, examining, knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing. 1Achieving results based on perseverance like a minister's son who pleases the king by being indomitable in his functions thus receiving titles. 3) Cittiddhipada is the citta. 2Achieving results based on citta is like a minister's son who receives titles because of his right birth and nature. 4) Vimansiddhipada is the panna-cetasika that ponders, notices, examines the characteristics of realities. 3Achieving results based on panna is like a minister's son who receives titles based on his knowledge. These minister's sons all achieve their titles by right of their respective efficiencies. The functions of these 4 iddhipada depend on the accumulation and development of the five indriya, which are the principal realities in leading towards samma-magga, the right way to practice. The five indriya: 1) Saddhindriya is the saddha-cetasika, the principal element of having saddha to be mindful of the characteristics of realities appearing. 2) Viriyindriya is the viriya-cetasika, the principal element of not being lazy, not being discouraged to be mindful of realities appearing. 3) Satindriya is the sati-cetasika, the principal element of not forgetting, being mindful of the characteristics of realities appearing. 4) Samadhindriya is the ekaggata-cetasika, the principal element of being steadfast in the arammana appearing. 5) Pannindriya is the panna-cetasika, the principal element of pondering, examining, and taking note of the characteristics of realities appearing. When the five indriya have been developed to become a strong reality unwavering in the study of any arammana appearing, it becomes the 5 bala (powerful realities) namely 1) Saddha-bala unperturbed by lack of faith. 2) Viriya-bala unperturbed by discouragement. 3) Sati-bala unperturbed in mindfulness of any reality that appears. 4) Samadhi-bala unperturbed by agitation and instability. 5) Panna-bala unperturbed by ignorance. For saddha, viriya, sati and samadhi to become powerful realities, panna must be bala from {nowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly so it is unperturbed to be mindful of how the instant of seeing is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The same applies to the instant of hearing, smelling, tasting and knowing bodysense contact. When panna which has arisen with sati that is mindful of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma has matured to become vipassana-nana of the respective level, it would be composed of the seven bojjhanga, the principal dhamma in the enlightenment of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. The seven bojjhanga are: 1) Sati-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: sati-cetasika 2) Dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: panna-cetasika 3) Viriya-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: viriya-cetasika 4) Piti-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: piti-cetasika 5) Passaddhi-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: kaya-passaddhi-cetasika and citta-passaddhi-cetasika 6) Samadhi-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: ekaggata-cetasika 7) Upekkha-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: tatramajjhattata-cetasika When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal elements of enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and complete with the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 iddhipada, the 5 indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 constituents of the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 8 constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, samma-vaca-cetasika, samma-kammanta-cetasika, samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika, samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise to clearly realize the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi through the mano-dvara... (End Quote) In short, right understanding has many level, but all are in regards to knowing realities as they really are, which, when powerful enough through accumulated studies of realities as they present themselves, even now as you read this message, which is only sight and seeing, with different colors appearing and long periods of thoughts interposing as you consider the reasonings, as well as other realities that appear at this moment, all are right view which can be accumulated, on the intellectual and eventually on the experiencing level, to gradually strengthen and develop panna. I hope this has not been more information than needed, anumodana in your excellent question, Amara 2035 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 7:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan, --- wrote: > Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has > explaind how a training > person in the 8 fold path looks at things. > > I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in > an earlier post, I like to > hear your understandings and comments on the suttas > on samma ditthi. I'm really looking forward to whatever discussion your request might engender. In case anyone would like to have a look on-line, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn1.html 2036 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear Sarah and other interested list members > > Due to conditioning there is a tendency to be > detailed and 'long-winded'. I > am not a teacher, only a mostly ignorant student, > with some shame and some > good intentions, displaying various degrees of > ignorance and knowledge. May > the following remarks be corrected, criticsed and > brought into line with the > Buddha Dhamma. > Dear Michael, Thank you very much for considering my post in such detail. Pls be as 'long-winded' as you like. I think this is a really important area of discussion and it's very helpful for me too to consider your points and try to voice 'my' understanding. We're all ignorant students most the time but this is a good place to help each other a little along the way. I can tell you're going to be a great asset to the group and I'm sure you'll adding plenty of interest to the discussions in Bkk! If you don't mind, I'll refer to the points you've raised in due course....I'm very busy with all the kids I teach (6-19yrs!) at the moment. I'll also look forward to meeting you shortly in Bkk. We'll be there 2nd and 3rd Dec (before Cambodia) and 9th,10th,11th Dec (after Cambodia). Nina VG will also be there then! Amara & Elle are in charge of the discusion schedules (I believe). Pls keep up your comments meantime and shout anytime you disagree. You've studied in depth and considered the Teachings far more extensively than most. Best rgds for now, Sarah p.s. Sukin, do hope you're fully recovered now & we look f/w to meeting you shortly too. 2037 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear gayan, Good topic; the only problem being that it is so important that it is hard to know where to begin. Amara's passage from Acharn sujin is maybe a good basis to ask for clarification or make comments on. The Mulapariyaya sutta is deep. It is one of those suttas that is a must to read again and again. And only by relying on the Atthakattha and Tikas can we get a proper grasp of it (to the extent that acumulations allow). Fortunately there is a comprehensive translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which he gives a passage from the sutta, then the commentary and then the Tika. It is very readable and reasonably priced: The Root of Existence Buddhist Publication Society. here is just a brief taste: p40 AN UNINSTRUCTED WORDLING (the actual sutta). And commentary: "Herein he needs to be taught because he posseses neither learning(agama) nor spiritual achievement (adhigama). ..Because he has neglected to study, question and discriminate the aggegates (khandas), elements(dhatus) sense bases(ayatanas), truths, laws of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc, nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achieved by practice he is said to be "uninstructed".. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Gayan, > > --- wrote: > > > > Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has > > explaind how a training > > person in the 8 fold path looks at things. > > > > I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in > > an earlier post, I like to > > hear your understandings and comments on the suttas > > on samma ditthi. > > I'm really looking forward to whatever discussion your > request might engender. In case anyone would like to > have a look on-line, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn1.html > 2038 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:08pm Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana > I'll also look forward to meeting you shortly in Bkk. > We'll be there 2nd and 3rd Dec (before Cambodia) and > 9th,10th,11th Dec (after Cambodia). Nina VG will also > be there then! Amara & Elle are in charge of the > discusion schedules (I believe). Dear Sarah, I'm afraid I'm only involved as far as announcement of the schedule and not in its setting, which would be up to Elle and Khun Sujin mainly, I guess! Will keep you as posted as I am, Amara 2039 From: Michael J. Jackson Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:52pm Subject: Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Robert, Mike, Sarah and other list members interested in this thread Reading your respective responses to my previous long-winded remarks created happy feelings and long consecutive moments of maana. I shall stand by for further comments before responding. Please note that if you meet me in person, you will probably be disappointed. The act of writing allows me time to edit so that the finished text only appears thoughtful and well considered - a mere illusion. I can get quotes, check sources, check consistency and logic, check coverage and completeness and so on. This is not so easy to do when talking, especially in a group with many people eager to make a contribution or ask a question. Members of the Bangkok English speaking group will attest to the fact that I have frequently 'put my foot in my mouth' during meetings. I usually try to apologise later on. It is also possible to view such writing or attempts to speak as showing off. Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or lobha? I think this question could lead to a new thread on its own. Among other things I guess it all depends on whether there is a self involved. I must also take this opportunity to praise Tahn Ajahn Sujin's ability to answer, what seem to me to be, difficult questions quite spontaneously with no apparent hesitation in Thai and only a litte in English when searching for the right English word. Furthermore, the speech is gentle, polite and precise. This naturally inspires confidence and admiration among listeners. Michael J Jackson http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/ 2040 From: Michael J. Jackson Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:16pm Subject: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok Dear Dhammastudylist members I hope you don't mind me announcing this conference here on this list. If it is against protocol, let me know so I will not do it again. The 21st General Conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists (WFB) is being held in Bangkok, Thailand from 5-10 December 2543 (2000). The theme of the conference is 'Buddhism and Globalization'. This signifies the spread of Buddhism throughout the entire world and its transcendence of all boudaries. The theme of the seminar is 'Main Concept and Role of the World Buddhist University'. The World Buddhist University (WBU) will be inaugurated on Saturday, 9 December 2543 in Bangkok. The WFB holds the General Conference every 2 years. The General Conference will be held at the Imperial Tara Hotel, 18/1 Sukhumvit Soi 26, Bangkok, 10110, Thailand. Tel. (662) 259 2900, Fax (662)259 2896-7, Email: protectID, The Imperial Impala Hotel, 9 Sukhumvit Soi 24, Bangkok 10110, Thailand Tel: (662) 2590053, Fax: (662)2588747. The opening ceremony is scheduled to take place at the Thailand Cultural Centre on 6 December 2543. The web site for the World Buddhist University is still being constructed. However, some of you may be interested to visit the WFB web site at: http://www.wfb-hq.org/ for more information about the WFB and other WFB contact details. Michael J Jackson 2041 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:31pm Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok > The 21st General Conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists > (WFB) is being held in Bangkok, Thailand from 5-10 December 2543 > (2000). The theme of the conference is 'Buddhism and Globalization'. > This signifies the spread of Buddhism throughout the entire world and > its transcendence of all boudaries. The theme of the seminar is 'Main > Concept and Role of the World Buddhist University'. The World > Buddhist University (WBU) will be inaugurated on Saturday, 9 December > 2543 in Bangkok. > > The WFB holds the General Conference every 2 years. The General > Conference will be held at the Imperial Tara Hotel, 18/1 Sukhumvit > Soi 26, Bangkok, 10110, Thailand. Tel. (662) 259 2900, Fax (662)259 > 2896-7, Email: ProtectID, The Imperial Impala Hotel, 9 > Sukhumvit Soi 24, Bangkok 10110, Thailand Tel: (662) 2590053, Fax: > (662)2588747. The opening ceremony is scheduled to take place at the > Thailand Cultural Centre on 6 December 2543. Dear Michael, As our Cambodian trip will be from the 4th to the 9th, as far as I remember, you will have to represent us at the conference, if you are attending, and please be our observer as well, so you can tell us all about it! We count on you to ask them a lot of questions, for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray from realities we would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they can tell you about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!! (Don't tell them this though!) Either way it should be interesting, enjoy, Amara 2042 From: habu Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:40pm Subject: new web site: zen-forum.com - communicate about zen, buddhism and related topics welcome since 15th november 2000, the zen-forum is online. it is a new place on the internet for everyone interested in zen and buddhism. it is for you: the novice and the master, the ones asking and the experienced, followers and critics. if you know something, share it - if not: ask! please use zen-forum, don't be shy. others are waiting for your input. the structure we decided to put up a very basic structure and are awaiting your contributions on developing the structure of the forum. the zen-forum shall be a dynamical platform for conversation. we can add more and change forums any time. the beginning of course, the beginning is not easy. nobody wants to make the first post. please post anyway. we hope, you like it... http://www.zen-forum.com/ 2043 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Friends, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Fortunately there > is a > comprehensive translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which > he gives a > passage from the sutta, then the commentary and then > the Tika. > It is very readable and reasonably priced: The Root > of Existence > Buddhist Publication Society. A printable order form for Bhikku Bodhi's translation is available @: http://members.aol.com/uparatana/BookService/section1.html Internet orders are not yet available; price listed is only $6.50 (US?) 2044 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:10pm Subject: Re: new web site: zen-forum.com - communicate about zen, buddhism and related topics > welcome > > since 15th november 2000, the zen-forum is online. > it is a new place on the internet for everyone interested in zen and > buddhism. > > it is for you: > the novice and the master, the ones asking and the experienced, followers > and critics. > > if you know something, share it - if not: ask! Welcome to our group too, Habu, How wonderful that you welcome questions, may I ask what 'Zen' means? Does the word have Japanese roots? It does not look like a Pali word to me, I have always wondered where it came from and about its etymology. Or is it Chinese? Is it true that Japanese Buddhism was linked to the feudal system for a very long time, and many Shoguns used the order to spy for them? I have always been fascinated by Ninja stories and such (more lobha!) One of my best memories of my visit to Japan was a tea ceremony in a most beautiful garden in a tiny hut with a rough beam that was about 2000 years old! I did not get the spiritual part very much but the ceremony was beautifully executed, with very precise gestures and utensils, though the hut was tiny and the entrance really minute! Maybe you could remind us of the meanings of the rituals? Looking forward very much to your reply, Amara 2046 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Difficulties Jim Welcome to the group, and thanks for joining. > I am enjoying it, but i am also having a problem > that i would > appreciate feedback on. The main problem is the > language; i just > lack familiarity with the very large number of pali > terms freely > distributed on the posts here. I studied Buddhism > in Korea, and i > have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese > derived Buddhist > terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to > this discussion > going on here. This is a problem we all have to one degree or another. Just stick with it and you will find that most of the terms used recur quite frequently and can be easily picked up, especially with the help of some of the reference materials others have already mentioned. Look forward to your participation. Jonothan 2047 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael, --- "Michael J. Jackson" wrote: > Dear > . I shall stand by for further comments before responding. > We will certainly look forward to your comments and criticisms of our words. Probably the harder you are on us the better; it really can condition reflection. And you may well uncover a few (many?) hidden blindspots where we are clinging individually or collectively (I hope so). . > > Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or lobha? I think > this > question could lead to a new thread on its own. Among other > things I > guess it all depends on whether there is a self involved. > We have been circling samsara for so so long. WE are simply kilesa (defilements), squeezed into an attractive or not so attractive sheath. So almost all the time there are defilements seeping out of this tightly packed wrapper. And Dhamma discussions are no exception.` The only difference is that there are or can be a few more moments when the stream of defilements are interupted. It is great that you see that sometimes (often?)there is lobha(attachment) or mana (conceit), as one of the functions of wisdom is to know this. All that has to be done is to see it and gradually this seeing will lead away from it. IF we can't see it then we are in trouble; then there is no warning system; no way to escape. Once in Bangkok when I was having a discussion I told a friend that I have conceit at times when I talk about Dhamma. She was shocked and told me I must never have conceit when talking about Dhamma. This is too idealistic and takes no account of the way things really are. Conditions are such that conceit and attachment and dosa (aversion) will arise at any time. I am not saying "go out and have conceit, attachment and aversion as much as you like" but when we know only the arahant has eliminated conceit we realise it must be there; better to be awake about this than thinking we are better than we really are. Conceit in particular can be so subtle that it is hard to know. Still it is often there, especially when we do something good and know that we have done so. This does NOT mean: "don't do good because conceit will follow." Learn about conceit, that is the best way, I think. Robert 2048 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:19pm Subject: On Second Thought... Dear Friends, Since Robert recommends it, and since it may be much more practical to do it from here than from wherever you are, I'd be very glad to bear the expense of obtaining and mailing a copy of Bhikku Bodhi's Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, via airmail, to anyone in the group who'd like to participate in an e-discussion. Seems to me this might be valuable as an introduction to the study of commentaries for people (like myself) who have never even read one...! If you'd like a copy, please send your mailing address to: protectID and thanks in advance for the opportunity. mn 2049 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael, Very briefly, --- "Michael J. Jackson" wrote: > Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or > lobha? In my case, most definitely! There is no question that the strongest motivating force for my participation is the unwholesome desire for acceptance and approval by the membership. And the maana cetasika you mentioned. Forget about alcohol! I can get maana-drunk for a week on a word of praise from one of the advanced students. It's a head-scratcher... > I must also take this opportunity to praise Tahn > Ajahn Sujin's > ability to answer, what seem to me to be, difficult > questions quite > spontaneously with no apparent hesitation in Thai > and only a litte in > English when searching for the right English word. > Furthermore, the > speech is gentle, polite and precise. This naturally > inspires > confidence and admiration among listeners. I've just been listening to tapes of her talks and, as I said recently to Robert, she sounds to me like a deva (only smarter). MIke 2050 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok --- amara chay wrote: > We count on you to ask them a lot > of questions, > for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray > from realities we > would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they > can tell you > about the realities before them, we should > rejoice!!! (Don't tell > them this though!) Outstanding notion, Khun Amara! 2051 From: Jim Wilson Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 2:24am Subject: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 Good Friends: This is my first post asking for feedback on a specific teaching. If there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use that i don't know about, please let me know. I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara Paccaya (Immediate Continguity). Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that distinguishes the two. I think of both of them as like causing like; as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. Or when the thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the next moment. Is this correct? However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa. Any assistance will be appreciated. Best wishes, Jimfw 2052 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:04am Subject: Praise : was Writing and Speaking Dear Dhammastudygroup list members, especially Robert, Mike and Sarah I wrote too soon again. "Roo mai tan" (a pithy Thai phrase that captures the sense in which mindfulness is not established). Last Saturday, the English speaking Dhamma discussion group met as usual in the comfortable airconditioned back room at the Foundation in Bangkok . This time Jack Tippayachan from California joined the session. Jack demonstrated a deep knowledge of the Dhamma and commented that the session in Bangkok was fun because we all laughed a lot. He also took an opportunity to praise Tahn Ajahn Sujin for the excellence of the teaching, the great patience she shows us and other virtues. Others in the group including Khun Sukin made similar comments or noises of affirmation. There was a young man from a foreign country who ordained to be a Buddhist monk in Thailand. When he went on alms round in the morning, people would bow down in front of him and offer food. This man felt unworthy of such respect and offerings. He was only a beginner with so much to learn and so many defilements. Then an older monk explained that the people were not respecting him at all. In fact the people were respecting the Lord Buddha who found the path, the Dhamma teaching about the path and the Sangha who have realised the path. Ignorance is recieving shame, embarrassment and blame. Just so, any praise for the extent to which messages to this list have kept in line with the Buddha Dhamma is due entirely to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Ignorance is receiving shame, embarrassment and blame. 2053 Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:19am Subject: Appearance And Disappearance Dear friends, This weekend, my Abhidhamma teacher told me a secret to realize Anatta. If we can stretch out a moment into a period of 10 or 20 minutes for example, we'll be able to see that everything around us, including ourselves, appears and disappears along with the subtle changes. Then, we won't cling to the concepts. Image that someone sits in front of you talking. After ten minutes, he disappears totally into thin air. Ten minutes later, he appears again. Another ten minutes pass, he disappears, and then after ten minutes, he reappears. Everything around you is doing the same. Simultaneously, you are also appearing and disappearing every ten minutes! Anumodana, Alex 2054 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 6:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Praise : was Writing and Speaking Dear Michael, --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Just so, any praise for the extent to which messages > to this list have kept > in line with the Buddha Dhamma is due entirely to > the Buddha, the Dhamma and > the Sangha. > > Ignorance is receiving shame, embarrassment and > blame. EXCELLENT POINT! SADHU! and thanks. (By the way (anyone), are shame, embarrassment and blame akusala cetasikas with names?). 2055 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 11:43am Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 > If > there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use > that i don't know about, please let me know. Dear Jim W., No formal preceedures here, please feel free to post any questions you wish, perhaps just that they concern the Buddha's teachings! > I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional > Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara > Paccaya (Immediate Continguity). > > Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that > distinguishes the two. I think of both of them as like causing like; > as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. Or when the > thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the > next moment. Is this correct? > > However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be > placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa. As I understand it, anantara-paccaya is the immediate cause for the next citta to arise, with no gap in time possible, the only exception being the cuti citta of the arahanta. Samanantara-paccaya are the sequential cause for citta to follow a certain order in their arising, for example in the vithi citta process, the sampatthichanna, santirana, votthapana and javana must arise in the proper sequence, again with the exception of the cuti citta of the arahanta, which should in others be followed by the patisandhi-citta. For more details please read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of , Amara 2056 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 11:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance Dear Alex, Thanks. It is true isn't it- nothing lasts at all. This type of consideration about anicca is useful. The more we accept that the better. Thinking alone isn't enough but at least seeing that everything must accord with the nature of parammattha dhammas helps us to see things in this light to some extent. Scientists have gradually uncovered that matter is almost nothing, simply space and very tiny particles changing rapidly: this is still a conceptual understanding but it accords with the way things really are (which if it is true it must). They know that every piece of matter is changing at a fanatstic rate. However, even the best scientists can't become enlightened by this knowledge as only direct experience of dhammas leads to the deepest type of wisdom. I saw a passage in a book that included an interview with the head of the physics department at the University of Chicago (where they first strated making the atomic bomb). It was in the 1930's and he was telling someone that they now knew that all matter was so ephemeral. He said he found it hard to accept that the very floor they were standing on was just space and particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. We accept this easily now because of our education but it is not so easy to see. The actual change is much more radical than even scientsits can realise; it all passes away completely and arises again billions of times in a split second according to the scriptures. Robert --- wrote: > Dear friends, > > This weekend, my Abhidhamma teacher told me a secret to > realize > Anatta. If we can stretch out a moment into a period of 10 or > 20 > minutes for example, we'll be able to see that everything > around > us, including ourselves, appears and disappears along with the > subtle > changes. Then, we won't cling to the concepts. > > Image that someone sits in front of you talking. After ten > > minutes, he disappears totally into thin air. Ten minutes > later, he > appears again. Another ten minutes pass, he disappears, and > then > after ten minutes, he reappears. Everything around you is > doing the > same. Simultaneously, you are also appearing and disappearing > every > ten minutes! > > Anumodana, > Alex > > 2057 Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 0:26pm Subject: Re: Appearance And Disappearance Dear Robert, > He said he found it hard to accept that > the very floor they were standing on was just space and > particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. If he had known that every particle of that floor changed due to decaying at the same time. He would be completed out of his mind! :- ))) Then, he saw that he himself changed, too. He would be a good disciple of the Buddha. :-))) > We > accept this easily now because of our education but it is not so > easy to see. The actual change is much more radical than even > scientsits can realise; it all passes away completely and arises > again billions of times in a split second according to the > scriptures. The Buddha's wisdom is amazing. Anumodana, Alex 2058 From: Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 0:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Amara and Robert, Thanks for your explanations.!! Robert, what is the english phrases used by Bhikkhu Bodhi for Pali 'mannana'? rgds 2059 From: Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael. you said--> The act of writing allows me time to edit so that the finished text only appears thoughtful and well considered - a mere illusion. I can get quotes, check sources, check consistency and logic, check coverage and completeness and so on. This is not so easy to do when talking, especially in a group with many people eager to make a contribution or ask a question. same here. :o) rgds. 2060 From: Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance Dear Robert you said--> He said he found it hard to accept that the very floor they were standing on was just space and particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. We accept this easily now because of our education but it is not so easy to see. The actual change is much more radical than even scientsits can realise; it all passes away completely and arises again billions of times in a split second according to the scriptures. in mulapariyaya sutta, the puthujjanas 'mannana'(verb) as ....is 'pathavi',from 'pathavi' ,in 'pathavi'...etc...with all. It would be really helpful if you( or anyone) can share your (his/her) understanding on this. rgds 2061 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance Dear gayan, I wonder if we were once dhamma students together in the distant past. We seem to have rather similar areas of interest. Your question about the mulapariyaya sutta is one I found (and still do) well-worth looking into. I'll send you a reply later today. Robert --- wrote: > > in mulapariyaya sutta, the puthujjanas 'mannana'(verb) as > ....is 'pathavi',from > 'pathavi' ,in 'pathavi'...etc...with all. > > It would be really helpful if you( or anyone) can share your > (his/her) > understanding on this. > > > > rgds > > > 2062 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 4:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 Dear Jim: Here's a quote from NVG's Conditions: Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. The preceding citta is the condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). My understanding of other people's explanation is that the two pacayas are different in letters (proximity, and proximity arising in order). Their meanings are the same. The conditioning dhammas are the same, the conditioned dhammas are the same, and the way the conditioning dhammas condition the conditioned dhammas are the same. A. Santi, in a taped discussions of pacaya, explained that the Buddha explained the same phenomenon in two different ways to help people with different accumulations to understand the meaning. A. Sujin, however, didn't confirm this (in the conversation), but confirmed the differentiations between the two pacayas. My speculation (watch out!) for the two different teachings (in letters) is to tighten the understanding of the phenomenon. It is not that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but that it must condition the next citta in certain order. Nobody controls this ordering: stressing the delusion of control, the delusion of self. It is analogous to explaining a sankhara dhamma (conditioned dhammas that arise) that it must also be sankhatta dhamma (conditioned dhammas that arise, and then must fall away). With the two explanations, explaining the same dhammas, there can be no doubt that conditioned dhamma does not last. It arises because of conditions, and then it must fall away. This captures all the three common characteristics: annica, dukha, anatta. kom --- amara chay wrote: > > If > > there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use > > that i don't know about, please let me know. > > > Dear Jim W., > > No formal preceedures here, please feel free to post any questions > you wish, perhaps just that they concern the Buddha's teachings! > > > > I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional > > Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara > > Paccaya (Immediate Continguity). > > > > Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that > > distinguishes the two. I think of both of them as like causing > like; > > as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. Or when the > > thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the > > next moment. Is this correct? > > > > However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be > > placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa. > > > As I understand it, anantara-paccaya is the immediate cause for the > next citta to arise, with no gap in time possible, the only exception > > being the cuti citta of the arahanta. > > Samanantara-paccaya are the sequential cause for citta to follow a > certain order in their arising, for example in the vithi citta > process, the sampatthichanna, santirana, votthapana and javana must > arise in the proper sequence, again with the exception of the cuti > citta of the arahanta, which should in others be followed by the > patisandhi-citta. > > For more details please read the chapters on the citta in > the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of > , > > Amara > > 2063 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 6:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Conditional Relations 4 and 5 Dear Jim, You ask hard questions! Good to see you working on this profound stuff. You will be able to help us out in the future when Jim Anderson comes up with problems during his translation of the commentary to the Patthana. I am a bit too tied up at the moment to research this topic . Kom would perhaps have a good idea though - or JimA or Sarah. One useful fact: the 24 paccaya can be reduced down to 6 main conditions because some of the conditions are essentially the same but were classfied differently as the Buddha was stressing different aspects. Now in fact as you indicate these two conditions are the same, they are only classified differently. --- Jim Wilson wrote: > Good Friends: > > . I think of both of them as like > causing like; > as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. I think the example you give is mainly asevana paccaya (repetition condition) because the javana cittas where anger arises run in a series of seven . Once they begin no one can stop them because of asevana paccaya. However, of course anatara and samanatara are also present at this time, and so because this anger now can condition anger in the future too; it becoems habitual. Anatara and samantara paccaya are the conditions that ensure there is never a gap between cittas; that after the arising of one citta another must follow immediately. For example even at death this condition works to condition patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) immediately in the next life - even if this new life is a zillion miles away.The only times when this doesn't occur is 1. upon parinibbana (final nibbana)of the arahant; then these conditions cease and no new citta arises ever again. 2. upon the special state called nirodha samapatti attainable only by a few arahants and anagami who have developed mastery of jhana. At this time these conditions are suspended for up to a week. But they take up immediately that this special type of concentration ends. 3. the birth of the special being who is born in the asanna-satta plane where there is rupa but know nama. robert 2064 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 8:09pm Subject: Mulapariyaya sutta Dear gayan, Here is some details on mannana: About the mulapariyaya sutta: For this explanation I rely on the commentary translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as well as his introduction. Bhikkhun Bodhi writes “The Pali word we have rendered ''conceiving,'' mannana, comes from the root man, 'to think''. But what is indicated by this word is not simple discursive thinking, either of a morally wholesome or unwholesome character and may involve either a right or a wrong grasp of its object. The word mannana signifies a different, more developed type of thinking, one that is decidedly unwholesome and always involves a wrong grasp of the object. Mannana is distortional thinking-thinking which, under the domination of defiled prediliction, imputes to its object properties or relational implications grounded not in the thing itself, but in the constructive activity of the subjective imagination” End passage. The commentary says that mannana is a synonym for papanca (see my letter about this a few months back). This is interesting as papanca is of three types: tanha, mana and ditthi (desire, conceit and craving). Now, as I understand it papanca is at a far deeper level than just the developed thinking Bodhi seems to indicate above. However , in other sections of his introduction he seems to acknowledge this. For instance he has a note which says “it cannot be stressed strongly enogh that the ..basic structure of ego bias is already present in toto as a potential in the worldlings mental constitution”. And in another section he relates mannana to the vipallasa (the perversions of cognition). He notes that there are three levels of perversion: perception (sanna) citta, and views (ditthi). He says “the perversion of perception occurs when the object is simply noted through one of the four distortional frames without further development. (this is the deepest level). If the object is subsequently reflected upon in the same mode there takes palce a perversion of thought. And if, through repeated reflection, the conviction arises that this frame yields an accurate picture of the world, the distortion has evolved into a pereversion of views” The four perversions are seeing the foul as beautiful, the unpleasuarable to be pleasuarable, the impermanent to be permanent and the not self to be self. Thus he acknowledges that these perversions (and mannana ) are also present before any thinking in words. .Bodhi writes “It is significant in this respect that the commentary glosses the word mannana by the word papanca, The activity of conceiving, the commentary points out, is motivated by three underlying mental factors which impart to x craving (tanha) , conceit , and views . Under the influence of craving the egoistic bias comes to expression in thoughts of longing and desire. Under the influence of conceit it becomes manifest in judgments and comparisons whereby we rank ourselves…. as superior, equal, or inferior. And under the influence of views, i.e. the theoretical bent of thought, the ego-bias issues in dogmas, tenets, and speculations concerning the reality and nature of the personal self and its focus, the world. Whereas the uninstructed worldling conceives the aggregates through craving, conceit, and views' '' This is mine, this am I, this is my self,'' the learner knows to reverse this mode of consideration. Applying his direct knowledge to the aggregates, he contemplates them thus : '' This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self '' By the first he attenuates craving, by the second of self. As he persists in his practice of contemplation, his insight gradually develops to maturity,” In the commentary itself (p50) it says “concepts due to proliferation (papanca) are grounded upon perception” So this is the first part. Did you take up Mikes offer to send the book to anyone who wants it? If you get a copy we can then all refer directly to it which will be more efficient, I think, than just qouting a few sections here and there. there is a lot in it and to do it justice will take some time. In the meantime any direct questions about it are wlecome. Robert 2065 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:34pm Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 > Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and > samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in > meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. Dear Kom, Thank you for the precisions, I would like to add just one little note: samanantara comes from sama, which means good, orderly, in groups + anantara which means immediate, no time gap, without interval. Khun Sujin confirms that they intend the same paccaya or causes but also that they are differntiated to stress different aspects: not only do they condition the sequential dhamma but also from the samanantara aspect, in the right order. The citta and the cetasika condition one another from several perspectives, as explained in Tan Ajaan's book 'Paccaya Sankep' in Thai, do you have that? I will ask Khun Jack to take some back to your groups. I am also translating it (slowly at the moment because I have lots of other obligations for quite some time still) but these two paccaya are explained in detail on pp. 21-23. Anumodana in your detailed study, Amara 2066 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 Dear Jim, Yes, as Kom & Robert have explained, anantara P. and samanantara P. are exactly the same in terms of function, condition and conditioned dhamma. The reason for explaining them seaparaely is that different people appreciate a different emphasis. For example, when we talk about anantara P, the emphasis is on the fact that there's no chance of a break in the cittas (mental states) because it conditions another citta immediately after by proximity. When we talk about samanantara p., the emphasis is on the fact that though the next citta arises, there is no chance for it to do 'as it likes but it does so in accordance with the fixed order' of cittas so there is no break. A very subtle change of emphasis. In the PTS Guide to Conditional Relations (v.helpful), it says 'proximity condition (anantara) is like the Universal Monarch who has gone forth into the homeless life and contiguity condition (samanantara) is like the Universal Monarch who has died. Each is the condition for the eldest son to become the monarch.' So I agree w/ Kom that the different classifications are to help people with different accumulations understand anatta. I don't think it matters if one doesn't understand the difference in these explanations as they are the same paccaya. We find these different classifications throughout the abhidhamma. Look at all the different ways the same cetasikas (mental factors) are classified for example. Keep up your good qus which are very relevant to the list.... Best rgds, Sarah 2067 From: Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:59pm Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 This statement, "It is not that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but that it must condition the next citta in certain order.", should read: "It is not only that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but that it must also condition the next citta in a certain order." --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Jim: > > Here's a quote from NVG's Conditions: > > Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and > samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in > meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. The preceding citta is the > condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is > the > conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). > > My understanding of other people's explanation is that the two pacayas > are different in letters (proximity, and proximity arising in order). > Their meanings are the same. The conditioning dhammas are the same, > the conditioned dhammas are the same, and the way the conditioning > dhammas condition the conditioned dhammas are the same. > > A. Santi, in a taped discussions of pacaya, explained that the Buddha > explained the same phenomenon in two different ways to help people with > different accumulations to understand the meaning. A. Sujin, however, > didn't confirm this (in the conversation), but confirmed the > differentiations between the two pacayas. > > My speculation (watch out!) for the two different teachings (in > letters) is to tighten the understanding of the phenomenon. It is not > that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but > that it must condition the next citta in certain order. Nobody > controls this ordering: stressing the delusion of control, the delusion > of self. > > It is analogous to explaining a sankhara dhamma (conditioned dhammas > that arise) that it must also be sankhatta dhamma (conditioned dhammas > that arise, and then must fall away). With the two explanations, > explaining the same dhammas, there can be no doubt that conditioned > dhamma does not last. It arises because of conditions, and then it > must fall away. This captures all the three common characteristics: > annica, dukha, anatta. > > kom 2068 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Sarah, In a message dated: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:45 AM EST you wrote: >you mentioned in another post (sorry I don't have it >here) that you had a better idea while writing (I >think!) of how to integrate your 'meditation and >study'. I'd be interested to hear what you have in >mind. I was thinking of bringing the two together in the same sitting. Instead of just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the option of engaging in dhamma study if desired. This would be helpful when the mind is too distracted to stay focussed on the breath as is often the case. The idea it that the dhamma study is substituted for the type of discursive thinking that just goes around in circles going nowhere. By dhamma study in a sitting (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali texts directly from memory by recitation or reflection without the aid of a book in front of me. I have been trying it out and am finding it to be a better way. Dhamma study also helps to focus and concentrate the mind. I have noticed that after spending some time with the study part and then turning my attention back to the breath, the breath is clearer. Sorry for being so late in responding to your message. I have been having email problems with egroups. A lot of messages have been bouncing and not getting through to me. I have never had a problem quite like this before. I then opened up an email account with yahoo.com, but the messages were bouncing from there as well. Lately the situation has improved and the messages have been getting through. I have no idea why this problem is happening or why some servers are refusing to deliver. With best wishes, Jim A. 2069 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Jim, Some interesting parallels: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I was thinking of bringing the two together in the > same sitting. Instead of > just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the > option of engaging in > dhamma study if desired. For some time, I was keeping Uposatha by staying up all night, reciting some Puja, and sitting/walking/sitting till dawn, then morning Puja--then sleeping in...! When I discovered dsg, I changed this practice to something like what you're now doing, (though I didn't exclude reading or listening) and found it a great improvement. > By > dhamma study in a sitting > (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali > texts directly from memory > by recitation or reflection without the aid of a > book in front of me. You're probably aware that this is one of the instructions that the Buddha gave to Maha-Moggallana for overcoming the third nivarana: "But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, you should think and reflect within your mind about the Dhamma as you have heard and learnt it, and you should mentally review it. Then it is possible that, by so doing, torpor will disappear. AN 7:58, from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#sloth If not, I'm mighty impressed that you came to that conclusion independently--though I probably shouldn't be surprised considering the breadth and depth of your practice... Good luck with your egroups connection. It would be great to hear more from you, if you can find the time... Regards, Mike 2070 From: Joe Cummings Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:15am Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok Can we really presume to judge how far Buddhism has declined? And if so, assuming you feel it's important enough to ask the question 'why does panna know', why not tell them they got the answer wrong and they fail 'the test'? metta, joe --- "m. nease" wrote: > --- amara chay wrote: > > > We count on you to ask them a lot > > of questions, > > for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray > > from realities we > > would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they > > can tell you > > about the realities before them, we should > > rejoice!!! (Don't tell > > them this though!) > > Outstanding notion, Khun Amara! > 2071 From: Joe Cummings Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:19am Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok Pardon, that should have been 'what does panna know,' of course! Although 'why does panna know' might generate an interesting side discussion ... joe --- "Joe Cummings" wrote: > Can we really presume to judge how far Buddhism has declined? > > And if so, assuming you feel it's important enough to ask the > question 'why does panna know', why not tell them they got the answer > wrong and they fail 'the test'? > > metta, joe > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > We count on you to ask them a lot > > > of questions, > > > for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray > > > from realities we > > > would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they > > > can tell you > > > about the realities before them, we should > > > rejoice!!! (Don't tell > > > them this though!) > > > > Outstanding notion, Khun Amara! > > 2072 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:54am Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok > Pardon, that should have been 'what does panna know,' of course! > > Although 'why does panna know' might generate an interesting side > discussion ... > > Can we really presume to judge how far Buddhism has declined? > > > > And if so, assuming you feel it's important enough to ask the > > question 'why does panna know', why not tell them they got the > answer > > wrong and they fail 'the test'? > > > > We count on you to ask them a lot > > > > of questions, > > > > for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray > > > > from realities we > > > > would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they > > > > can tell you > > > > about the realities before them, we should > > > > rejoice!!! (Don't tell > > > > them this though!) Dear Jim, I could go on and on about the present state of the sankha and the lack of study of the Buddha's teachings from the direct source of the Tipitaka and following 'simplified and improved' methods of practice in classes of individual teachers these days, which is really an insult to the Buddha's teachings because had there been a better and faster way he would certainly have not said that it was the eka-magga. Yet most of the people who practice have never really studied his words before proceding to 'sit'. They take a phrase here and a quotation there and interpret it as they please and do not see his teachings as a whole that work together to explain a great reality, the truth, which can be proven right now, even as we sit here and see light and color, so different from sounds and touches at your fingertips, each reality able to teach us of their different characteristics which when accumulated to a certain level, could spectacularly show is the complete separation of nama and rupa, never to be subject of doubt again. These same realities that continuously present themselves could lead to higher and higher knowledge respectively and culminate in the eradication of all kilesa, if the study continues and panna accumulates. This is the kind of knowledge people often consider too hard and unnecessary, most would rather go and sit with their eyes closed and not study realities, but expect panna to arise, never knowing that they do that with the self full of lobha for things to happen. That does not apply to those who sit with the awareness of realities, that they are attached to the posture, that thoughts arise and fall away just like any reality, that all are anatta, that panna could arise as they sit if sati also arises to know the realities that appeat to the citta with sati then. But for the person to know that, he must have prior knowledge of what sati is and what panna is and how they arise and operate. Which still requires some studying on the intellectual level in any case. Those who teach about the dhamma generally think they know best already even though often they could not answer any of the essential questions, and they often get angry if asked things they could not answer- even though if only they took the trouble to read the Buddha's teachings, all the answers are there, in fact some of the questions I would never have dreamt of are also answered there. In any case I suppose one might try to convince others they are wrong, but in my experience it is better to tell people who are interested and ask about it rather than argue that this or that person is not saying things that are taught in the Tipitaka, unless they ask your opinion. Then of course I believe that honesty is the best policy, since in trying to humor someone in their wrong view must bring some kind of unhappy results in the future as well! Again, these are my personal opinions and in no way reflect those of this list! Amara 2073 From: Jim Wilson Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:04am Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Jim: > Dear Kom: Thank you for a clear elucidation. I found this very helpful. > Here's a quote from NVG's Conditions: > > Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and > samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in > meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. The preceding citta is the > condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is > the > conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). > > My understanding of other people's explanation is that the two pacayas > are different in letters (proximity, and proximity arising in order). > Their meanings are the same. The conditioning dhammas are the same, > the conditioned dhammas are the same, and the way the conditioning > dhammas condition the conditioned dhammas are the same. > I wonder if you could give an example of how the two categories would be used in an explanation of the arising of a thought moment which conditions the next thought moment? > A. Santi, in a taped discussions of pacaya, explained that the Buddha > explained the same phenomenon in two different ways to help people with > different accumulations to understand the meaning. A. Sujin, however, > didn't confirm this (in the conversation), but confirmed the > differentiations between the two pacayas. > > My speculation (watch out!) for the two different teachings (in > letters) is to tighten the understanding of the phenomenon. It is not > that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but > that it must condition the next citta in certain order. So it is the order that is crucial here? Is that right. That a particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, but a particular citta in a chain of causation? Is this deterministic, or is it possible, through meditation, to break such a sequence? Once again, thank you for your clarity. Best wishes, Jimfw Nobody > controls this ordering: stressing the delusion of control, the delusion > of self. > > It is analogous to explaining a sankhara dhamma (conditioned dhammas > that arise) that it must also be sankhatta dhamma (conditioned dhammas > that arise, and then must fall away). With the two explanations, > explaining the same dhammas, there can be no doubt that conditioned > dhamma does not last. It arises because of conditions, and then it > must fall away. This captures all the three common characteristics: > annica, dukha, anatta. > > kom 2074 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:07am Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok Dear all, I forgot to sign off for two more days (a birthday party of the sponsor of our website, Khun Walee Davahastin, to be held at one of her hotels by the sea at Cha-am) and I look forward to reading all the postings when we get back, See you all soon, Amara 2075 From: Jim Wilson Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:12am Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Jim, > You ask hard questions! Hi Robert: Thank you for inviting me to this board. My primary background is in chinese buddhist traditions. My acquaintance with pali buddhism is newer, but i am finding it such a rich resource for clarification. I don't mean to ask "hard" questions, just attempting to gain some clarity. If i ask something that everyone has already gone over a dozen times, just let me know. Good to see you working on this profound > stuff. You will be able to help us out in the future when Jim > Anderson comes up with problems during his translation of the > commentary to the Patthana. I am a bit too tied up at the moment > to research this topic . Kom would perhaps have a good idea > though - or JimA or Sarah. > One useful fact: the 24 paccaya can be reduced down to 6 main > conditions because some of the conditions are essentially the > same but were classfied differently as the Buddha was stressing > different aspects. I was reading Ledi Sayadaw's introduction to the paccaya and came across sections where he said that a particular condition was the same as another one. This puzzled me as i didn't understand, if they are the same, why the system needs 24 categories. From your post, and also Kom's, i am thinking that in some cases this is an example of upaya; though the meaning may be the same, the approach to the meaning differs. Is this similar to the sense you have of it? Your comment that the 24 conditions can be simplified into 6 primary conditions is interesting to me. Can you give me a resource on these 6 core conditions? In the Sarvastivada Abhidharma they list 4 causes and 6 conditions, and i am wondering if there is a closer connection between the two systems if viewed in this way? Perhaps not, but i think it would be worthwhile comparing. Now in fact as you indicate these two > conditions are the same, they are only classified differently. > --- Jim Wilson wrote: > Good Friends: > > > > . I think of both of them as like > > causing like; > > as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. > > I think the example you give is mainly asevana paccaya > (repetition condition) because the javana cittas where anger > arises run in a series of seven . Once they begin no one can > stop them because of asevana paccaya. However, of course anatara > and samanatara are also present at this time, and so because > this anger now can condition anger in the future too; it becoems > habitual. I am SUCH a beginner here!!! It had not occured to me, though now it seems obvious, that more than one condition can apply in a particular analysis. I had fallen into an either/or view. But as you pointed out, several aspects can be present at the same time. Though, i suspect, there would be a predominant condition? Once again, thanks for your help. Best wishes, Jimfw > Anatara and samantara paccaya are the conditions that ensure > there is never a gap between cittas; that after the arising of > one citta another must follow immediately. For example even at > death this condition works to condition patisandhi citta > (rebirth consciousness) immediately in the next life - even if > this new life is a zillion miles away.The only times when this > doesn't occur is 1. upon parinibbana (final nibbana)of the > arahant; then these conditions cease and no new citta arises > ever again. > 2. upon the special state called nirodha samapatti attainable > only by a few arahants and anagami who have developed mastery of > jhana. At this time these conditions are suspended for up to a > week. But they take up immediately that this special type of > concentration ends. > 3. the birth of the special being who is born in the > asanna-satta plane where there is rupa but know nama. > robert > > > > 2076 From: Jim Wilson Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:20am Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Jim, > Greetings: Thanks you for your assistance. > Yes, as Kom & Robert have explained, anantara P. and > samanantara P. are exactly the same in terms of > function, condition and conditioned dhamma. The reason > for explaining them seaparaely is that different > people appreciate a different emphasis. > > For example, when we talk about anantara P, the > emphasis is on the fact that there's no chance of a > break in the cittas (mental states) because it > conditions another citta immediately after by > proximity. When we talk about samanantara p., the > emphasis is on the fact that though the next citta > arises, there is no chance for it to do 'as it likes > but it does so in accordance with the fixed order' of > cittas so there is no break. A very subtle change of > emphasis. In the PTS Guide to Conditional Relations > (v.helpful), it says 'proximity condition (anantara) > is like the Universal Monarch who has gone forth into > the homeless life and contiguity condition > (samanantara) is like the Universal Monarch who has > died. Each is the condition for the eldest son to > become the monarch.' This illustration is very helpful. > > So I agree w/ Kom that the different classifications > are to help people with different accumulations > understand anatta. I don't think it matters if one > doesn't understand the difference in these > explanations as they are the same paccaya. Right now, i am trying to lift the fog on conditional relations. So i'll probably ask irrelevant questions, or questions that don't quite matter or hit the mark. Let me know if that is the case. Thanks for your help. Best wishes, Jimfw We find > these different classifications throughout the > abhidhamma. Look at all the different ways the same > cetasikas (mental factors) are classified for example. > > Keep up your good qus which are very relevant to the > list.... > > Best rgds, > Sarah > > > > > 2077 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 9:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 Dear Jim, thanks for the reply. --- Jim Wilson wrote: > --- In > Hi Robert: > Thank you for inviting me to this board. Glad you accepted. My primary > My acquaintance with pali > buddhism is > newer, but i am finding it such a rich resource for > clarification. I > don't mean to ask "hard" questions, just attempting to gain > some > clarity. If i ask something that everyone has already gone > over a > dozen times, just let me know. We want hard questions and easy questions and a dozen times is sure to be only scratching the surface of any aspect of the BuddhaDhamma. > I was reading Ledi Sayadaw's introduction to the paccaya and > came > across sections where he said that a particular condition was > the > same as another one. This puzzled me as i didn't understand, > if they > are the same, why the system needs 24 categories. From your > post, > and also Kom's, i am thinking that in some cases this is an > example > of upaya; though the meaning may be the same, the approach to > the > meaning differs. Is this similar to the sense you have of it? This is one part but also I think it is stressing different aspects of the condition. > > Your comment that the 24 conditions can be simplified into 6 > primary > conditions is interesting to me. Can you give me a resource > on these > 6 core conditions? I think the Abhidhammathasangha (an ancient compendium of Abhidhamma - it used to be the first thing that monks studied- an introduction to the tipitika and abhidhamma) has mentioned this although I just looked it up on the web and couldn't find a reference. You might want to read over what it says about pacccaya though: http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_8.htm In the Sarvastivada Abhidharma they list 4 > causes > and 6 conditions, and i am wondering if there is a closer > connection > between the two systems if viewed in this way? Perhaps not, > but i > think it would be worthwhile comparing. I looked over some stuff from the Abhidhamkosa (sarvastivada?) once and found the conditions had similar names but found them rather different. For example if you look at hetu paccaya in the therevada and compare it with hetu-pratyaya of the later sanskit schools it is quite different. > > It had not occured to me, though > now it > seems obvious, that more than one condition can apply in a > particular > analysis. I had fallen into an either/or view. But as you > pointed > out, several aspects can be present at the same time. Though, > i > suspect, there would be a predominant condition? Probably. But it may vary at different times, even in a very similar type of moment. Here is a sentence from the visuddhimagga(XVii217)"in the course of an existence..these five bases (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) are conditions in six ways, as support, prenascence,faculty, disscociation,presence and non-disapearrance conditions, for the sixth, the mind-base, comprising eye, ear, nose, tongue and body cosciouness..." Every moment is conditioned by several paccaya and likewise each moment functions as a condition for other moments in various ways. It is so complex but it is happening now and the Buddha understood it all and classified it perfectly in order that we could begin to see it - and thus slowly, very slowly come out of delusion. You wrote to kom: > > "So it is the order that is crucial here? Is that right. That a particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, but a particular citta in a chain of causation? Is this deterministic, or is it possible, through meditation, to break such a sequence?" In fact during a sensedoor process, for example seeing, even the Buddha's mind door processes follow an inevitable series: 1.atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) . 2.bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) . 3 .bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga) , the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sensedoor 4.five-sense-door-adverting -consciousness (Pahcadvaravajjacitta) , which is a kiriyacitta . 5 .sense-cognition (dvi-pancavinnana, seeing- consciousness, etc.) , which is vipikacitta. 6.receiving-consciousness (sampaticchana-citta) , which is vipikacitta. 7. investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) which is vipakacitta. 8 .determining-consciousness (votthapanacitta) which is kiriyacitta. 9-15 seven javana-cittas (''impulsion'' , kusala citta or 9-15 or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats) . _ 16.registering-consciousness (tadarammana-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipaka cita. 17. registering-consciousness. However, it is not inevitable that the the javana cittas are only of one type(in the Buddhas case they are only kiriya). In our case they may be akusala(unwholesome) or kusala(wholesome). There are several conditions which are applying at this time and which determine whether the javana is kusala or akusala (but if the first javana is kusala then the following must be also and same for akusala). It is so interesting to learn about this as it all happening now, even while you read this. So completely anatta, uncontrollable, not-self.But we cling to it with distorted perception and think,"I am seeing", "I am understanding", "I am having kusala", "I am having akusala". "I am doing good", "I am doing bad", "I can change" It is all rooted in delusion because of not uncovering and seeing the way things really are. Robert 2078 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 9:54am Subject: RE: Fonts for Pali Dear DSSFB Group, I'm getting set to retype Nina van Gorkom's letters from about 1975 onward for placement on the web (and perhaps eventually other forms of distribution) with her approval and permission. I would like to use a font that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words on the web. For my coursework (on Hindu-Buddhist architecture) which went on the web, the I.T. unit here at NUS (Singapore) used a program 'embedded fonts' which was able to display the fonts on I.Explorer 5. The font I used was one I created with Fontographer (for mac and pc) which I can send to Amara (or others who need such a font) and maybe it will work in the same way our NUS web works, but only through Explorer 5. I also have something called 'Dtimes' which works on mac (but I don't know if it is around for pc). The Word font Amara uses (Tahoma) for her own work is not available on mac. Does anyone have suggestions for solving this problem? Pinna p.s. I much appreciate the lively discussions, especially on abhidhamma, and grapbling with 'reality.' 2079 From: Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:33pm Subject: Re: welcome Wyn --- wynn wrote: > Well, i am not good at introducing myself!!!! What do you want to know about > me? You can sent questions to me privately. Sorry for the inconvenience > caused. Wynn No need to apologise. A self-introduction is not obligatory. Welcome to the list, anyway. Good to have you with us. Jonothan 2080 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) --- Jim Anderson wrote > Dear Sarah, > > I was thinking of bringing the two together in the > same sitting. Instead of > just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the > option of engaging in > dhamma study if desired. This would be helpful when > the mind is too > distracted to stay focussed on the breath as is > often the case. The idea it > that the dhamma study is substituted for the type of > discursive thinking > that just goes around in circles going nowhere. By > dhamma study in a sitting > (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali > texts directly from memory > by recitation or reflection without the aid of a > book in front of me. I think recitation and reflection (with or without the aid of a book) can be extremely helpful. Of course it all depends on the understanding while reciting or reflecting...as khun Sujin is fond of saying, a phrase reflected on with right understanding is more useful than reading the whole Tipitaka with wrong understanding, especially wrong understanding of self. I tend to read a few sentences or hear a phrase on a tape and reflect on it during the day whilst teaching (work teaching), hiking, doing my yoga or whatever. For this reason, I seldom finish a text and there are large chunks of the Tipitaka I haven't read or read so long ago I've forgotten whether I've read them or not! On the other hand if I'm distracted or 'my' mind is going round in circles, I don't feel this is any impediment to my practice. There are different realities at these times which can be known too. If there is right understanding, there is right concentration automatically at that moment on the object appearing. > > I have been trying it out and am finding it to be a > better way. Dhamma study > also helps to focus and concentrate the mind. I have > noticed that after > spending some time with the study part and then > turning my attention back to > the breath, the breath is clearer. > Conventionally I agree it's important to focus and concentrate the mind. For example, we can say that when you're translating a pali text you need to do these. Of course, in reality, it's an illusion to think that the mind can be concentrated at will or that in terms of the development of satipatthana that these more 'concentrated' times are any more suitable. You also raise the subject of breath and anapannasati. Others have mentioned their meditations on breath too. This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect. You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which case pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I know you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply and respect that you may not want to discuss your own 'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the translation work too! I hope you get yr email problems sorted out. At least yr messages aren't coming out in duplicate with long time delays as mine were until I changed to yahoo. (Maybe it's sth do do with server alliances, but I have no idea really!). Best rgds and pls don't apologise for delays. Sarah 2081 From: Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 0:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya sutta Thanks indeed robert, :o) And your explanation and bhikku bodhi's explanation go along with the way I am studying right now... when it comes to papanca, its a perversion of vitakkas, ['advanced' version of vitakkas] its like in the story where - a man arranges all the titbits(bones,veins..etc..etc) of a ferocious animal and give life to it, and then the animal kills the guy - When the vitakkas 'galore' and get entangled the much more destructive papanca and papanca samkha appear. And of course the mannana is not just TMD ( tanha , mana ,ditthi ) but a further developed thing.. And in the Trainee, he trains as ' this is not mine, etc.....' { Pali - ma manni }so its a step by step process. the papanca proliferation entanglement is the key here... rgds. 2082 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 4:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya sutta dear gayan, It should be noted that mannana, papanca, as I see it, are present even before there is any actual conceiving in words. I think if we envisage mannana and papanaca starting off in at a very tiny point and then rapidly expanding into a massive triangular shape (or expanding universe) we get the general idea. At the pinhead stage these perverted ways of seeing are so refined, almost undetectable. At the outskirts we have such ideas as Aliens in comets coming to take us away. The only way to get to really understand it though is by investigating right at the very moment they arise. That is: during the sensedoor and minddoor processes. This is something that only a Buddha can teach. Other ways, other teachers, science, philosophy, religion, psychology, cults, they can help us in a various ways by revealing aspects of the truth. But only the Dhamma can get to this fundamental point where all kilesa blossoms from. Robert --- wrote: > > Thanks indeed robert, > > :o) > > And your explanation and bhikku bodhi's explanation go along > with the way I am > studying right now... > > when it comes to papanca, its a perversion of vitakkas, > ['advanced' version of vitakkas] > its like in the story where - a man arranges all the > titbits(bones,veins..etc..etc) of a ferocious animal and give > life to it, and > then the animal kills the guy - > When the vitakkas 'galore' and get entangled the much more > destructive papanca > and papanca samkha appear. > > And of course the mannana is not just TMD ( tanha , mana > ,ditthi ) but a further > developed thing.. > > And in the Trainee, he trains as ' this is not mine, etc.....' > { Pali - ma manni > }so its a step by step process. > > > the papanca proliferation entanglement is the key here... > > > rgds. > > > > 2084 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Mike, From: m. nease Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 1:23 PM EST >Dear Jim, > >Some interesting parallels: > >--- Jim Anderson wrote: > >> I was thinking of bringing the two together in the >> same sitting. Instead of >> just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the >> option of engaging in >> dhamma study if desired. > >For some time, I was keeping Uposatha by staying up >all night, reciting some Puja, and >sitting/walking/sitting till dawn, then morning >Puja--then sleeping in...! When I discovered dsg, I >changed this practice to something like what you're >now doing, (though I didn't exclude reading or >listening) and found it a great improvement. I remember you mentioning keeping an all night Uposatha vigil to d-l some time ago. This is something I have not tried myself. The closest I ever came was at a weekend peace meditation retreat in 1979 where a small group of us were meditating in shifts around the clock in the shrine hall and catching up on sleep at odd hours. >> By >> dhamma study in a sitting >> (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali >> texts directly from memory >> by recitation or reflection without the aid of a >> book in front of me. > >You're probably aware that this is one of the >instructions that the Buddha gave to Maha-Moggallana >for overcoming the third nivarana: > >"But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear, >you should think and reflect within your mind about >the Dhamma as you have heard and learnt it, and you >should mentally review it. Then it is possible that, >by so doing, torpor will disappear. > >AN 7:58, from > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#sloth I was not aware of this sutta until you brought it up. I have read the four nikayas in English at least 15 years ago but have since forgotten most of it. My preference now is to spend more time reading texts in Pali rather than in English. I had a quick look at this sutta in English and Pali and I thank you very much for letting me know about it. It is a gift of the dhamma! I understand that this sutta teaching was instrumental in helping Mahamoggallana to become an arahant. The sutta is packed with some really powerful teachings and I like the part on solitude. >If not, I'm mighty impressed that you came to that >conclusion independently--though I probably shouldn't >be surprised considering the breadth and depth of your >practice... It would not be fair to say I came to that conclusion independently, if indeed, you could call it a conclusion. There is plenty of other teachings in the tipitaka with its commentaries that can also lead one in the same direction. I have long been interested in the memorizing of Pali texts and keeping them in memory as this is the way the texts were handed down during the first five centuries from the time of the Buddha. I have worked and continue to work at memorizing pages of the Tipitaka (about 60 pages are being maintained) and I'm convinced of the potential for the human mind to memorize and retain the whole Tipitaka with its commentaries in Pali (about 50,000 pages). Lately, I have been memorizing some more pages from the Dhammasangani (now up to the description of samadhindriyam in the first kusala citta) and the Patthana (up to the exposition of the conascence condition). I know I will not complete this work in this lifetime but it is worth it to me to get started anyway. I don't know if Jonothan is yet in Ottawa for the conference, but I can tell you that winter has finally arrived here (about a week ago) and we had the coldest night so far last night. My thermometer read 2F (-17C) this morning. Brrrr... it's time to throw another log on the fire. With best wishes, Jim A. 2085 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] On Second Thought... --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Mike, This is a kind offer...anumodana! We already have a copy and look forward to further discussion. Indeed it is an excellent example of what we have discussed about needing to read the suttas with an understanding of the abhidhamma. (This holds true of the vinaya too, I believe.) Sarah p.s. I loved your comments about getting 'maana-drunk for a week on a word of praise....' Yes, we're all so susceptible to those 8 woldly conditions! Friends, > > Since Robert recommends it, and since it may be much > more practical to do it from here than from wherever > you are, I'd be very glad to bear the expense of > obtaining and mailing a copy of Bhikku Bodhi's > Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, via airmail, to > anyone in the group who'd like to participate in an > e-discussion. Seems to me this might be valuable as > an introduction to the study of commentaries for > people (like myself) who have never even read > one...! > > If you'd like a copy, please send your mailing > address > to: > > protectID > > and thanks in advance for the opportunity. > > mn > 2086 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children Dear Robert & Michael, michael wrote > > > Although they are exceptionally intelligent for > their ages, > I > > think they are > > a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. Robert wrote > I think intelligence is not the main issue. Whether > they will > ultimately be interested in Dhamma depends on many > conditions > including their accumualation from past lives. They > may be > genius' but not be interested or they might be slow > and yet > through accumulations come to have great confidence > in Dhamma. > Paramattha dhamma is hard to understand for all of > us. I think this is a really good point. We're so used to thinking in terms of conventional intelligence and we tend to think that if a child is quick to pick up other subjects he/she will be quick to pick up the dhamma. Of course the understanding of the dhamma is not another subject and I sometimes find my students who can most appreciate what I say about kusala (wholesomeness) at any level are the 'slower' students. It depends on so many conditions and accumulations. We can see amongst this discussion group the accumulations and areas of interest are very different and yet we're all interested in understanding the Teachings more. It's interesting what we teach children too. I talk a lot about different kusala and akusala cetaikas (wholesome and unwholesome mental states) usually in general terms and related to experiences and a lot about the 5 precepts and occasionally about paramattha dhammas (absolute realities), but seldom about kamma and vipaka.....now I'm reminded by Robert to do so more. Many thanks to you both for your useful prompts. Sarah 2087 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 9:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children dear sarah and Michael, Today Alex(8) said me that his cousins don't get to hear Buddhism and that this was a pity. I reminded him that when we stayed at my sisters house a 18 months ago I told them all the story of culla-cunda and maha-cunda . This is the story of two pigs and how their owner finally decided to kill one of them for food. It relates how maha-cunda told culla-cunda that all must die and that we should face our death fearlessly. Anyway I told it in a fair amount of detail - there were about 9 or 10 family listening. Of all of them Luke(9) was the most impressed. He said to Alex and roxanne, the next time they met, that they were lucky to hear these stories. I am not sure if he took it literally or simply as a good story but I stressed the truth of it as I told it (ignoring skeptical grunts from one member of the audience). Luke does very badly at school though. Three points to look at here, perhaps. 1. In conventional terms Luke is not intelligent, however he seemed to see the point of that story. 2. We westerners, when telling people about Dhamma, often avoid details about past lives and what we perceive as non-scientific aspects of buddhism. I think this is a valid but not always. For some hearing about past lives and the workings of kamma makes immediate sense to them. In the end they have to see this otherwise they cannot begin to fathom how conditions work. 3. The last point: I think no rule about what we teach or when. Sometimes it is better to say nothing. Sometimes it is good to speak even if your words aren't particularly welcome. Robert 2088 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 10:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Mike > > Jonothan once indicated to me that when we > > are very > > concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a > > clinging to > > self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma > into > > psychology. > > Yes, this hits the nail on the head, and accounts > for > my misgiving. Clearly there was the desire present > to > be dosa-free, and the idea that I could 'achieve' > that. > > > (Actually he said much more and much better so > > please ask him to > > explain). > > I hope he might pick up on this... To be honest, i don't recollect the exchange. But Robert's recollection would be correct, I'm sure. Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form of akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting this as a form of 'practice'. (Indeed, whole schools of meditation practice have built up around this concept.) This of course would be a mistake, because it is wanting to be other that we truly are at that moment. And of course, getting rid of the dosa of the present moment by such means does not address the fundamental problem - lack of developed understanding. Actually, most of the ideas we have about 'practice' are wrong view (miccha ditthi). This should not surprise us. Just as we have more akusala in general in a day that kusala, so too with miccha ditti/samma ditthi in particular. Once we manage to accept this, it means we are more likely to recognise the miccha ditthi when it arises. This is vital for creating the right conditions for more awareness and right understanding to arise. As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing. Much more useful than supressing those moments of akusala! Jonothan 2089 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Gayan > as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati' > where as a sekha would do ' ma manni' > and an arahant would do 'na mannati'. Could you explain a little, or give a translation of the Pali terms, please. thanks Jonothan 2090 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali Dear Pinna Lee, --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote: > I > would like to use a font > that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words > on the web. I have downloaded several pali fonts, and can't remember, now, where I got them all. But there are several, I think, available via Andy Shaw's wonderful 'Palitrans': http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/paltra.htm There's also a brilliant piece of software there Andy created called Paliwords, which you can download. I believe that any font that Khun Amara installs on her server will make it possible for us to view any file saved in that font from her website. But I don't know web technology at all well, so I may be (as is so often the case!) mistaken. Hope this helps, and very nice to meet you. I'm reading Nina's AIDL at present and it is immediately in my personal top ten best books ever read (tipitaka aside)--and vying for the number one spot. So naturally I'm very glad to know that more of her writing may soon be available on-line. So good luck, best wishes and I hope this helps! Mike 2091 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:22am Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok I am not going to get up and ask this question about panya. I am surprised at the comments posted on this topic. If panya arises, it won't necessarily be because I asked such a question. How can you all be so sure you know better than attendees at the WFB conference? How does this confidence arise? Is there something we should know about the WFB aside from the obvious faults of any international organsation? Is there some kind of hidden agenda or scandal that we should all be aware of? The World Buddhist University web site went up yesterday. It is still under construction, but it is a start. http://www.wb-university.org/ Michael 2092 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:55am Subject: censorship and meditation - Ajahn Santi, Wat Dhammakaya, Helen Jandamit, delusions Dear Robert Thank you for taking the time to write those notes about Ajahn Santi, meditation training and Helen Jandamit. I read your message just before I had to go out. I was thinking about what you had said and composed a few replies in my head while sitting on the BTS electric light rail on my way to meet with a friend. I thought of many things. Your message has inspired me to write another longish message exploring antipathy to meditation among DhammaStudyGroup people as percieved by me. I am still looking forward to Sarah's response to my earlier message on this thread. Amara's position as expressed in her recent message of Wed, 22 Nov (To: Jim; Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok) was the most extreme recent example. I hope some members who are anti-meditation can back up arguements with specific examples and details of what is wrong with various meditation methods or styles. I have read the books on the website and provided at the Foundation but these only provide critical details of the samadhi style meditation techniques as being inappropriate for lay people or possibly even inappropriate for monks these days. Amara and others refer to "sitting with closed eyes" without seeming to understand what is going on. I think many of the vipassana meditation teachers would agree with some of these criticisms. However, I have not yet found a similar detailed criticism of the vipassana meditation techniques or books that are popular these days. In fact the vipassana meditation techniques such as those of Goenka and Mahasi Sayadaw are probably more popular than the samadhi methods anyway. Comments such as those of Amara are not very informative or useful for people such as myself who are trying to understand these issues. As Amara admits herself, her remarks are only her opinions. I would like more detail please. Simply equating all meditation together and criticising is just like someone criticising people who read books, as though all people who read are equally competent at reading and are reading books that are equally useful. Should we say that all people who listen to lectures are benefiting? We have to find out what is the content of the lecture and find out if the member of the audience is paying attention etc. To a casual observer who has not practiced meditation, it may seem that meditation is about closing the eyes and daydreaming. Actually this does happen sometimes but so does seeing reality as it is actually happening at the six sense doors. AJAHN SANTI Thank you Robert for defending Ajahn Santi. I was not criticising Ajahn Santi personally. I was using that event as an example of how members of the Foundation and this DhammaStudyGroup seem to be against meditation. The name of the meditation centre or the teacher or the method of meditation was not mentioned at the time that Ajahn Santi made those remarks. All the audience and Ajahn Santi knew was that it was a meditation retreat and that is all. Without even knowing which meditation centre or teacher or style, Ajahn Santi discouraged them to meditate or learn anything more about it. He did not ask the couple and nor did he explain the various popular schools and what might be wrong with each of them. It seemed as though he believed that all meditation schools were a waste of time. This is similar to Sarah's wish to control the content of the Internet search results for vipassana" (vipassana teaching resources thread). Isn't this a form or censorship? Robert, even your own withholding of information about Helen Jandamit was censorship. Who are we to judge was is appropriate for others? This issue of right view is a thorny one indeed. Robert wrote of Ajahn Santi: > He apparently suggested that they would be better off studying > Dhamma and it seemed that you thought it was inappropriate for > him to do this. (or did I read you wrongly?) I would have been more impressed if Ajahn Santi had not discouraged them from meditating but rather encouraged them to read more and attend Dhamma discussions at the Foundation and left it up to the couple to make up their own minds. I think that doing both meditation and study are necessary and that neither should be neglected. Ajahn Santi did discourage the couple from meditating. It is also likely that other stronger admonitions were being provided after the lecture by other long-time followers of the Foundation. How can you all be so sure you have right view and that censoring in this way is appropriate? What is the basis for this? Robert wrote regarding the couple in this example: > Firstly, I want to say that from my point of view anyone should > do as they wish. And anyway it is up to accumulations and > conditions what anyone will listen to and what they will > practice. For that reason my first reaction is that you are > right: let them do what they wish and don't try to influence > them in any way. That is what I thought when I read your post. This is not quite what I meant. I think that we should provide information that we have as neutrally as possible, saying that this is "what I believe" and "these are the reasons why I believe it", however, "you have to make up your own mind". This is still influencing people but it is not aggressive or pushy. I mean how can you be so sure that you are right? Robert continues straight on from the above quote: > Today I considered again. I thought about it this way: "what if > that couple were my mother and father?" wouldn't I then try to > direct them as far as possible in what I believed was towards > what the Buddha really taught?. And shouldn't I try to help all > I meet just as if they are my mother or father? " From where I stand, it makes no difference who they are. We usually know our parents and have a close relationship with them and this often muddies things a bit. However (looking for clarity), we have a duty to anyone who crosses our path and expresses an interest in Dhamma to put accross our understanding as it is but with the qualification that "this is only my understanding so far, BUT... I have not achieved the goal, I am liable to wrong view, so beware. You have to choose. You are responsible for your path. Don't trust anyone absolutely even your children or your parents." WAT DHAMMAKAYA Robert described the Wat Dhammakaya meditation school. I personally don't think of them as Theravada Buddhists either. Perhaps they should start a new religion and call it something else but not Theravada Buddhist. The land deals and other corruption scandals are quite discouraging. I have never been interested in their teaching. It seems to be very commercial and petite bourgeois. It may suit some people. If their management was transparent and accountable and there were a few other changes in their administration as well then there may be a role for them in society. Not everyone is ready for Paramatta Dhamma/vipassana. Note that these remarks are made without having studied the Dhammakaya doctrines, I am just going on what I read in the newspaper and found out through conversations (look out). Regarding Wat Dhammakaya, Robert continues: >Would that couple > be better off listening to Santi or going there? This is the same point as above, it is not up to us to censor information. Watch out for the straw man here! Robert writes about fate: >The other thing > is that it is not by accident that the couple came to the > foundation; Acharn Santi would know that and it is right that he > encourages them to listen. If after they listen they decide it > is not for them, fine they can go elsewhere and meditate as much > as they wish. Or they can mix the two or whatever their > accumulations lead them to do. But it is good to have had at > least the chance to listen. What is the basis for saying that it isn't an accident that they came to the Foundation. Would it be an accident if they left the Foundation? If it isn't an accident, then was it planned? Who planned it and implemented it? Do we all have some kind of destiny meeting at the Foundation? This passage starts with it being no accident but then ends with it being a chance. What are the odds? HELEN JANDAMIT Robert writes: > One more example: In an earlier letter you mentioned the > well-known vipassana teacher Helen Jandamit and that you had > originally contacted the foundation, not because you wanted to > discuss Dhamma, but in the hopes of finding Acharn helens > address. People can go along to her vipassana meditation > retreats at Wat mahathat (where the base for mahasi style is or > was); she has many years experience of teaching vipassana. In > fact, I have a confession: I am just as guilty as Acharn Santi > in that I was pleased you had found the foundation and did not > immediately post Acharn Helens address even though I knew it. > This is because I thought it would be to your advantage to > listen to Khun Sujin even if later you went elsewhere. I believe > it was by conditions and your accumulations that you managed to > contact the Dhamma study and support foundation. I can update your knowledge of Wat Mahadhatu a bit here. As far as I know, Helen Jandamit hasn't been a regular teacher or resident of Wat Mahadhatu for many years. I haven't actually met Helen but we share a common set of teachers. The Upachaya Bhikkhu who oversaw my ordination back in 2525 was Ven. Phratepsitimuni, the head of section 5 at Wat Mahadhatu and therefore the top Bhikkhu in charge of vipassana meditation for Thailand. I believe Ven. Phratepsitimuni finished the highest grade Pali exams with distinction and then went to Burma to study and practice vipassana meditation with Mahasi Sayadaw as a young monk before his final position at Wat Mahadhatu. Mahasi Sayadaw was also an eminent Pali scholar (but that is another story). I believe that Helen practiced with Ven. Phratepsitimuni for many years and helped teaching women (Thai and foreign) at section 5 during this period. She also translated some of Ven. Phratepsitimuni's books and tapes from Thai into English. In addition to this, we have another teacher in common in the person of Ven. Phrakrupalad Khao Titawanno (also known as Ven. Phra Khru Bhavananusit or just Loong Poo Khao), the Abbot of Wat Boonsrimunigorn in northeast Bangkok, where I was ordained. In fact Helen dedicated a recent book to him. So with these common elements, you can probably understand why I might like to meet with her and talk about our teachers. I also wanted to find out information about other old friends that we may have in common but with whom I have lost touch, most particularly, George Bickel, who while in robes was known as Annavilo Bhikkhu. I had temporarily given up looking for Helen but then found that she is one of the key people at the World Fellowship of Buddhists Conference, so I shall see her there. I visited Section 5 at Wat Mahadhatu about 3 weeks ago and found that it is not the same as it once was. I have changed and people have come and gone. The new people are different to the old people etc. Ven Phratepsitimuni passed away years ago and there seems to be now one of his stature in the Dhamma (he was actually very short physically) to replace him. Khun Yai (another old friend of mine), a Thai lay woman who speaks good English, guides many of the lay women and nuns in Section 5 and helps foreigners who pass by and stop for a while. Jack Kornfield's guide to meditation centres in Thailand is well out of date now and not to be relied upon. I don't have the time or energy to write a new version either. I am puzzled about this censorship thing with the Foundation and DhammaStudyGroup. How can you be so certain that you know what is best for others? What else is being held back with the "closed fist"? > Helen Jandamit's meditation method follows the Mahasi system > and those who go along think they are experiencing vipassana > stages and so on. ***Robert can you elaborate on this please? I know about the vipassana stages (in theory) but I am very interested in why you say "go along think(ing) they are experiencing vipassana stages and so on". This use of the word "thinking" is important. You seem to imply that followers of this approach are not really experiencing vipassana stages. Is this right? Can you write some more about this or cite some books or articles I can read about it. I am very interested in this issue and would be very grateful if you could help me on this point.*** DELUSIONS Robert continues describing Helen Janamit's teaching: >For some time she has been claiming to be > channelling not only the Archangel Michael but also the Buddha > himself; you can go to her website and read what the Buddha > tells her. I would guess you were unaware of this? Despite > micchaditthi (wrong view) revealing itself to this degree she > has a sizeable following who think she is showing them the way > to nibbana. If you are still interested you can find all the > details at this site: > http://www.angelfire.com/al/dhamma/home.html > Her centre's address is 26/9 Lardprao Lane 15 > Jatujak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand I shall visit this site soon and see what she has to say. I am very interested in this and if true, I am also very disappointed. This is a person who has read very widely and deeply in the Tipitaka and would know well what is and is not considered to be the Buddha Dhamma. This knowledge Dhamma has not prevented her from taking this wrong view. It might not be productive to speculate about it by I am curious about how this arose? It isn't the first time that something like this has happened. I have seen it before. I knew some foreign monks in Thailand who were using Carols Castenada - Don Juan mythology and mixing this with Buddhadasa Buddhism and Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana. According to the wrong views of these monks, the Ajahn became a Nagual and these monks became key off-siders (I forgot the technical term Castenada uses). This all happened seemingly without the knowledge of the Thai Ajahn. Needless to say the foreign monks were a bit confused and confusing. Fortunately for me I had already read 4 or 5 books in the Castenada series while in my teens so I was not "sucked in". Perhaps because of experiences like these, I am quite wary. This wariness may be evident in some of my remarks. I do think I am old enough now to be able to make up my mind about what is Buddhism and what is not. Robert (and Sarah) please don't "protect" me from the delusions of others, but do shake me by the shoulder (by e-mail if not in person) if you think I'm heading that way. Of course I shall do the same. Even if there are many more cases of people who have practiced meditation and started seeing visions or attempting to merge Buddhism with something else, we shouldn't assume that this is so with all meditators. Would you say that because some people who drive cars badly and crash into others that all car drivers are bad? Would you say that all people who read the Tipitaka and misunderstood it and taught wrongly (according to someone's judgement) means that all people who read the Tipitaka are wrong and bound to have wrong view? Please don't judge meditators so harshly yet. We need some more substantive arguments and evidence first. Michael 2093 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Good one, Ms. P-A, And, since you like a laugh, here's the text of a message I've just sent off to BPS. Hope you find it amusing... Dear Sir or Ma'am, I have been entirely frustrated in my attempts to find, on your website, the order form mentioned in your 'Ordering info'. This has occasioned the arising of many moments of the second nivarana with their attendant opportunities for the cultivation of understanding of them, for which I say, anumodhana. However, I would still like to proceed with the ordering process. Kindly advise at your convenience. Thanks in advance and, in retrospect, for all your wonderful work. Sincerely, m. nease --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > --- Jim Anderson wrote > > Dear Sarah, > > > > I was thinking of bringing the two together in the > > same sitting. Instead of > > just trying to focus on the breath, I would have > the > > option of engaging in > > dhamma study if desired. This would be helpful > when > > the mind is too > > distracted to stay focussed on the breath as is > > often the case. The idea it > > that the dhamma study is substituted for the type > of > > discursive thinking > > that just goes around in circles going nowhere. By > > dhamma study in a sitting > > (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali > > texts directly from memory > > by recitation or reflection without the aid of a > > book in front of me. > > I think recitation and reflection (with or without > the > aid of a book) can be extremely helpful. Of course > it > all depends on the understanding while reciting or > reflecting...as khun Sujin is fond of saying, a > phrase > reflected on with right understanding is more useful > than reading the whole Tipitaka with wrong > understanding, especially wrong understanding of > self. > I tend to read a few sentences or hear a phrase on a > tape and reflect on it during the day whilst > teaching > (work teaching), hiking, doing my yoga or whatever. > For this reason, I seldom finish a text and there > are > large chunks of the Tipitaka I haven't read or read > so > long ago I've forgotten whether I've read them or > not! > > On the other hand if I'm distracted or 'my' mind is > going round in circles, I don't feel this is any > impediment to my practice. There are different > realities at these times which can be known too. If > there is right understanding, there is right > concentration automatically at that moment on the > object appearing. > > > > I have been trying it out and am finding it to be > a > > better way. Dhamma study > > also helps to focus and concentrate the mind. I > have > > noticed that after > > spending some time with the study part and then > > turning my attention back to > > the breath, the breath is clearer. > > > > Conventionally I agree it's important to focus and > concentrate the mind. For example, we can say that > when you're translating a pali text you need to do > these. Of course, in reality, it's an illusion to > think that the mind can be concentrated at will or > that in terms of the development of satipatthana > that > these more 'concentrated' times are any more > suitable. > > You also raise the subject of breath and > anapannasati. > Others have mentioned their meditations on breath > too. > This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to > hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect. > > You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which > case > pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I > know > you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply > and > respect that you may not want to discuss your own > 'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the > translation work too! > > I hope you get yr email problems sorted out. At > least > yr messages aren't coming out in duplicate with long > time delays as mine were until I changed to yahoo. > (Maybe it's sth do do with server alliances, but I > have no idea really!). > > Best rgds and pls don't apologise for delays. > > Sarah > 2094 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 10:17am Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok > I am not going to get up and ask this question about panya. I am surprised > at the comments posted on this topic. If panya arises, it won't necessarily > be because I asked such a question. Dear Michael, See how you could not control even what you do? There's anatta for you. > > How can you all be so sure you know better than attendees at the WFB > conference? How does this confidence arise? I am not: if you reread what I said, these are the exact words: 'We count on you to ask them a lot of questions, for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray from realities we would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they can tell you about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!!' What's wrong with this exactly? Or does panna concern anything else but realities and the dhamma which also means the truth, the Buddha's teachings? > Is there something we should know about the WFB aside from the obvious > faults of any international organsation? Is there some kind of hidden > agenda or scandal that we should all be aware of? Is there? What does that concern what is taught there or what is discussed there in any case? Amara 2095 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 10:27am Subject: Re: censorship and meditation - Ajahn Santi, Wat Dhammakaya, Helen Jandamit, delusions > Your message has inspired me > to write another longish message exploring antipathy to meditation among > DhammaStudyGroup people as percieved by me. I am still looking forward to > Sarah's response to my earlier message on this thread. Amara's position as > expressed in her recent message of Wed, 22 Nov (To: Jim; Subject: Re: World > Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok) was the most > extreme recent example. Dear Micheal, Since you picked my letter as an extreme example of anti-meditation, I would like to say that I have nothing against meditators, any more than other religions on earth, I am only sorry they do not study the teachings and realities that appear normally in daily life as well which would of course keep them from learning the Buddha's teachings which does seem to me a waste of time (even of lifetimes!). I also said that that did not apply to meditators who studied as they sit. The exact quote: 'I could go on and on about the present state of the sankha and the lack of study of the Buddha's teachings from the direct source of the Tipitaka and following 'simplified and improved' methods of practice in classes of individual teachers these days, which is really an insult to the Buddha's teachings because had there been a better and faster way he would certainly have not said that it was the eka-magga. Yet most of the people who practice have never really studied his words before proceding to 'sit'. They take a phrase here and a quotation there and interpret it as they please and do not see his teachings as a whole that work together to explain a great reality, the truth, which can be proven right now, even as we sit here and see light and color, so different from sounds and touches at your fingertips, each reality able to teach us of their different characteristics which when accumulated to a certain level, could spectacularly show is the complete separation of nama and rupa, never to be subject of doubt again. These same realities that continuously present themselves could lead to higher and higher knowledge respectively and culminate in the eradication of all kilesa, if the study continues and panna accumulates. This is the kind of knowledge people often consider too hard and unnecessary, most would rather go and sit with their eyes closed and not study realities, but expect panna to arise, never knowing that they do that with the self full of lobha for things to happen. That does not apply to those who sit with the awareness of realities, that they are attached to the posture, that thoughts arise and fall away just like any reality, that all are anatta, that panna could arise as they sit if sati also arises to know the realities that appeat to the citta with sati then. But for the person to know that, he must have prior knowledge of what sati is and what panna is and how they arise and operate. Which still requires some studying on the intellectual level in any case.' (End quote- it feels wierd to quote myself, by the way.) I would appologize and will if you could point out anything untrue or slanderous of anyone at all here. I have never been above admitting my mistakes when I saw that I am wrong, and being the ordinary person as opposed to the ariya I have often been wrong. But if you were fair enough, Michael, instead of being so defensive of meditators, why don't you consider what others are saying to see if what is being said is true? The individual has his accumulations, and they should realize that. Sit as much as you want, as long as panna arises of realities as they really are. What is the use otherwise? In the Buddha's days more arahantas did not attain the jhanas, according to the Tipitaka, or do you contest this? Therefore the jhanas are not necessary to condition enlightenment of any level, not even the very first, feeble nana of vipassana or the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, which leads to all other vipassana level, and enlightenment of all levels. Do you agree? Samma-samadhi is extremely hard and require many conditions to arise, (see Tan Ajaan's explanations in the chapter on Samatha- Bhavana in the 'Summary' in the advanced section of ) whereas Vipassana could arise under almost any conditions except with akusala citta and even then they could alternate, and when there are the five nivarana-dhamma. Do you disagree? Miccha-samadhi is very dangerous, could lead to all kinds of abnormalities and such, is that not true? Vipassana in daily life is most beneficent and accumulates knowledge and could never be harmful in any way, or don't you agree? Which is why samadhi has never interested me, although if you prefer that, go ahead, no one can force anyone else to do anything, in the end, and as you yourself experienced earlier, not even you yourself can. In fact for me, that might be better than doing things like going hunting or fishing as I have seen priests do in other religions and regions of the world. That would not condition panna to arise. But if it were samma-samadhi, full of kusala-citta although without anatta there would still be the self that is so full of kusala and not just realities that arise and fall away as kusala citta, there would inevitably be clinging to that state, and no further panna accumulated, rather more hidden akusala clinging to the self and the jhanas achieved. Do you see the harm in this? The Buddha did and that is why he taught vipassana even as one 'meditates', but not only then, one could do that anywhere, I repeat, deep sea diving, skiing on mountain tops or sitting in front of the computer screen seeing diverse colors (and recognizing them as pannati-different moments) or touching keys and mouses (mice?) and thinking and the rest. Other poeple have other preferences, and most of the great arahantas did have jhana, I simply don't think I have the requirements for such a difficult path that leads to what I am not interested in. I am however interested in panna, in what the Buddha taught which I am confident is the best and most direct way possible, something I could prove for myself and not depend on someone else to tell me about my personal experiences, not even Tan Ajaan, although I am greatly indebted to her for teaching me how, in fact for giving me a new life, and of this none could ever convince me otherwise. Again this is my personal thought and I am not trying to convince anyone against anything, only they could do it for themselves in the end. I don't think the other topics concern me, so I hope to hear from you again soon, Amara 2096 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 11:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] censorship and meditation - Ajahn Santi, Wat Dhammakaya, Helen Jandamit, delusions --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear Robert Dear michael, Thank you for your detailed letter. > Robert, even your own withholding of information about Helen > Jandamit was > censorship. Who are we to judge was is appropriate for others? OK. I am guilty of censorship. > This issue > of right view is a thorny one indeed. > > Robert wrote of Ajahn Santi: > > He apparently suggested that they would be better off > studying > > Dhamma and it seemed that you thought it was inappropriate > for > > him to do this. (or did I read you wrongly?) > > I would have been more impressed if Ajahn Santi had not > discouraged them > from meditating but rather encouraged them to read more and > attend Dhamma > discussions at the Foundation and left it up to the couple to > make up their > own minds. But won't they make up their own minds anyway? I think that doing both meditation and study are > necessary and > that neither should be neglected. Ajahn Santi did discourage > the couple > from meditating. It is also likely that other stronger > admonitions were > being provided after the lecture by other long-time followers > of the > Foundation. The last time I went to Khunying napporots house (where they discuss Dhamma once a month) a lady suggested that I should spend a month at an Achan cha temple to do meditataion, She told me she has been listening to Achran sujin for 10 years but finds she needs both. I said this didn't interest me but the fact is you will find numerous people who listen to acharn sujin who also meditate. Indeed some meditation teachers lsiten to Acarn sujins radio program. I think you will find that you can put your views about this again and again and again- we will be happy if you do. We will never say, on this list, that you cannot. If we did say you couldn't put forward your opinion this would be censorship. On the other hand some of us will put forward our ideas as well- some of them may conflict with yours. You write > "How can you all be so sure you have right view and that > censoring in this > way is appropriate? What is the basis for this? I mean how can you be so sure that you are right?" This is fair comment. perhaps I am under a major delusion. Perhaps the Tipitika is all wrong. Maybe the world is controlled by a God. Or maybe we are all dreaming the whole thing. I think it is hard to be sure of anything. However I think when I write or speak people usually know that it is the personal opinion of the speaker. I don't have to put "in my opinion" in front of everything I write or say. Nor to I have to conclude every statement with "I might be wrong". This is taken for granted. In fact I notice you make some similar statements where you seem to imply you know that a group is wrong (implying that your view is right) You say: "WAT DHAMMAKAYA > Robert described the Wat Dhammakaya meditation school. I > personally don't > think of them as Theravada Buddhists either. Perhaps they > should start a new > religion and call it something else but not Theravada > Buddhist. ..... I > have never > been interested in their teaching." I am sure Wat Dhammkaya people would feel this was injust nevertheless I agree with you. To be really and truly absolutely honest though we would have to say, wouldn't we, that they could be right? We might be under some delusion. A couple of years ago cult memebers in san Diego killed themselves because they thought that Aliens in a comet were taking them to heaven (HEAvens Gate cult). My strong opinion is that they are wrong. However I don't know that. Perhaps they are now in Heaven enjoying eternal bliss. > Robert writes about fate: > >The other thing > > is that it is not by accident that the couple came to the > > foundation; Acharn Santi would know that and it is right > that he > > encourages them to listen. If after they listen they decide > it > > is not for them, fine they can go elsewhere and meditate as > much > > as they wish. Or they can mix the two or whatever their > > accumulations lead them to do. But it is good to have had at > > least the chance to listen. > > What is the basis for saying that it isn't an accident that > they came to the > Foundation. Would it be an accident if they left the > Foundation? If it > isn't an accident, then was it planned? Who planned it and > implemented it? > Do we all have some kind of destiny meeting at the > Foundation? This > passage starts with it being no accident but then ends with it > being a > chance. What are the odds? You see my main guidance comes from the Tipitika. According to the Abhidhamma EACH and EVERY moment is conditioned by a various conditions. We have been talking about these recently, the 24 paccaya elucidated in the Patthana. In loose terms kamma and its results. The reason we ever heard Buddhism is not by chance it is because of conditions from the past and present. Likewise the reason we hear wrong teachings is conditioned too. This is not fate, neither is is controlled by anyone. It is not chance that you became interested in Buddhism. It was conditioned because also in past lives you were interested. > > > HELEN JANDAMIT > > I can update your knowledge of Wat Mahadhatu a bit here. As > far as I know, > Helen Jandamit hasn't been a regular teacher or resident of > Wat Mahadhatu > for many years. According to her Website she still teaches meditation retreats there. I haven't actually met Helen but we share a > common set of > teachers. The Upachaya Bhikkhu who oversaw my ordination back > in 2525 was > Ven. Phratepsitimuni, the head of section 5 at Wat Mahadhatu > and therefore > the top Bhikkhu in charge of vipassana meditation for > Thailand. I believe > Ven. Phratepsitimuni finished the highest grade Pali exams > with distinction > and then went to Burma to study and practice vipassana > meditation with > Mahasi Sayadaw as a young monk before his final position at > Wat Mahadhatu. > Mahasi Sayadaw was also an eminent Pali scholar (but that is > another story). > I believe that Helen practiced with Ven. Phratepsitimuni for > many years and > helped teaching women (Thai and foreign) at section 5 during > this period. > She also translated some of Ven. Phratepsitimuni's books and > tapes from Thai > into English. In addition to this, we have another teacher in > common in the > person of Ven. Phrakrupalad Khao Titawanno (also known as Ven. > Phra Khru > Bhavananusit or just Loong Poo Khao), the Abbot of Wat > Boonsrimunigorn in > northeast Bangkok, where I was ordained. In fact Helen > dedicated a recent > book to him. I had temporarily given > up looking for > Helen but then found that she is one of the key people at the > World > Fellowship of Buddhists Conference, so I shall see her there. > Thank you very much for all this background. You never mentioned that you had such close connections when you posted the original letter. And in fact you didn't mention that you were seriously looking for her anymore. If I known all this I would have sent you the address immediately. > I am puzzled about this censorship thing with the Foundation > and > DhammaStudyGroup. How can you be so certain that you know what > is best for > others? What else is being held back with the "closed fist"? Interesting analogy. You are referring to the Buddha saying that he does not teach with a closed fist. All I can say is that the teachers I know at the foundation give everything they know about Dhamma whenever I ask. In fact I have met many other Dhamma teachers and often I find that after a short time many of them seem to get bored with questions. I remeber once I asked a meditation teacher about anatta and he told me just to keep sitting "what you are asking about is just theory. It can't help you". he made me feel so stupid that I actually stopped studying Dhamma for several months. I have spent hours at a time with Khun Sujin and she has always answered all my questions without any sign of impatience. I think the closed fist the Buddha was talking about was not referring to such examples as: myself not immediately giving you the address of someone who has (in my opinion) an obvious wrong understanding of Dhamma. I think if I was stingy with Dhamma and did not explain what I know that this would be a closed fist. You can check out the numerous letters I have written on this list and see whether you think it is fair to say that I "hold back with the "closed fist"". > > DELUSIONS > Robert continues describing Helen Janamit's teaching: > >For some time she has been claiming to be > > channelling not only the Archangel Michael but also the > Buddha > > himself; you can go to her website and read what the Buddha > > tells her. I would guess you were unaware of this? Despite > > micchaditthi (wrong view) revealing itself to this degree > she > > has a sizeable following who think she is showing them the > way > > to nibbana. If you are still interested you can find all the > > details at this site: > > http://www.angelfire.com/al/dhamma/home.html > > Her centre's address is 26/9 Lardprao Lane 15 > > Jatujak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand > > I shall visit this site soon and see what she has to say. I am > very > interested in this and if true, I am also very disappointed. Michael I don't understand. You have written this letter highly critical of my stance but now you seem to be saying that you know Acharn helen has wrong view because she channels the Buddha. You wrote earlier "How can you all be so sure you have right view and that > censoring in this > way is appropriate? What is the basis for this? How do you know you are right?" Well now I ask how do you know she isn't in direct communication with the Buddha? As you describe she has been through long years training with all these teachers that you think highly of. As you note she is an important speaker at the World Foundation of Buddhists. She has been teaching meditation for years. Why do you assume she knows less than you? > This is a > person who has read very widely and deeply in the Tipitaka and > would know > well what is and is not considered to be the Buddha Dhamma. Here you seem to be saying that the Tipitika is the basis we should rely on. I agree. > This knowledge > Dhamma has not prevented her from taking this wrong view. It > might not be > productive to speculate about it by I am curious about how > this arose? Would you ask her when you meet? Or do you feel that anyone is entitled to their opinion and should not be hindered or corrected or censored in any way. Would you still recommend that anyone go to her and learn meditation? Of course anyone can read the whole Tipitika and still see it through the eyes of "self". I said recently that I am reading the Visuddhimagga again and how different it is than when I first read it. When i first studied it was all "me" reading it. > It isn't the first time that something like this has happened. > I have seen > it before. I knew some foreign monks in Thailand who were > using Carols > Castenada - Don Juan mythology and mixing this with Buddhadasa > Buddhism and > Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana. According to the wrong views of > these monks, the > Ajahn became a Nagual and these monks became key off-siders (I > forgot the > technical term Castenada uses). This all happened seemingly > without the > knowledge of the Thai Ajahn. Needless to say the foreign > monks were a bit > confused and confusing. Fortunately for me I had already read > 4 or 5 books > in the Castenada series while in my teens so I was not "sucked > in". Perhaps > because of experiences like these, I am quite wary. Yes I have seen many other examples too. For this reason I will always do my best to try to help people in a direction that I believe will most help them. As you indicate I may be under a major delusion but it doesn't seem that way (then again delusion never does). If this is censorship then so be it. I will continue doing so. > > Even if there are many more cases of people who have practiced > meditation > and started seeing visions or attempting to merge Buddhism > with something > else, we shouldn't assume that this is so with all meditators. I agree. My main concern is with wrong view. In fact I meditate a lot myself. But right view arises because of listening, and considering and appying correctly. People don't see this and mistake calm and strange experiences for vippassana. > Would you say > that because some people who drive cars badly and crash into > others that all > car drivers are bad? Would you say that all people who read > the Tipitaka > and misunderstood it and taught wrongly (according to > someone's judgement) > means that all people who read the Tipitaka are wrong and > bound to have > wrong view? Please don't judge meditators so harshly yet. The thing is no one these days can meditate properly without understanding Dhamma. My only concern is that people listen enough to Dhamma. If they want to meditate that is fine but I will continue to encourage them to study and consider. For instance if anyone on this discussion group wants to go on a meditation retreat with any teacher at all it is fine by me; I will continue to write to them in exactly the same way. And I know khun sujin and others will continue to help them. On the other hand I will point out wrong view or wrong practice when (in my opinion) they have it. If this is censorship so be it. Robert 2097 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 0:36pm Subject: Vipassana meditation reply to michael .Dear Michael, I hope some members who are anti-meditation can back up > arguements with > specific examples and details of what is wrong with various > meditation > methods or styles. I have read the books on the website and > provided at the > Foundation but these only provide critical details of the > samadhi style > meditation techniques as being inappropriate for lay people or > possibly even > inappropriate for monks these days. Amara and others refer to > "sitting with > closed eyes" without seeming to understand what is going on. > > I think many of the vipassana meditation teachers would agree > with some of > these criticisms. However, I have not yet found a similar > detailed criticism > of the vipassana meditation techniques or books that are > popular these days. > In fact the vipassana meditation techniques such as those of > Goenka and > Mahasi Sayadaw are probably more popular than the samadhi > methods anyway. > Comments such as those of Amara are not very informative or > useful for > people such as myself who are trying to understand these > issues. As Amara > admits herself, her remarks are only her opinions. I would > like more detail > please. Yes. Detail is most useful. I have asked you several times though for details about how you believe satipatthna should be developed. You refered us to mahasi sayadaw. However, as you have stressed different people interpret his practice differently. Rather than me trying to guess what the sayadaw meant could you explain exactly how YOU understand it. it may seem that > meditation is > about closing the eyes and daydreaming. Actually this does > happen sometimes > but so does seeing reality as it is actually happening at the > six sense > doors. Great so please descibe what IS actually happening at the six sense doors as you understand it. I have talked with many people who meditate and don't meditate and they all have different ideas about this. I don't know if you include me as anti-meditation? Since I meditate this would not be really correct. If you mean I am anti-meditation because I don't go on retreats lead by "trained and experienced practioners", as you put it earlier, then perhaps I am. Sometimes, though, I go and stay by myself in a little hut in the forest. I take a few Dhamma books and spend the time reading, walking and contemplating- and studying dhammas as they appear. I haven't been able to do that recently because of my family responisiblities but I will do so when times are right. Robert 2098 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana meditation reply to michael Dear michael, I forgot to come back to this section of your letter: You wrote > ***Robert can you elaborate on this please? I know about the > vipassana > stages (in theory) but I am very interested in why you say "go > along > think(ing) they are experiencing vipassana stages and so on". > This use of > the word "thinking" is important. You seem to imply that > followers of this > approach are not really experiencing vipassana stages. Is this > right? Can > you write some more about this or cite some books or articles > I can read > about it. I am very interested in this issue and would be > very grateful if > you could help me on this point.*** > I will write more on this - a most difficult subject- but first I would like you to reply in your comprehensive and clear way about the development of satipatthana and your experiences of seeing realities "as they are at the six doors". Also I sent a reply to your post (Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana)on Monday which you very nicely thanked me for, but you didn't address most of the points I brought up. Could you look over it again and give some reponse. Robert 2099 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok Dear michael, Amara wrote: Dear Michael, "As our Cambodian trip will be from the 4th to the 9th, as far as I remember, you will have to represent us at the conference, if you are attending, and please be our observer as well, so you can tell us all about it! We count on you to ask them a lot of questions, for example 'what does panna know?' If they stray from realities we would see how far Buddhism has declined... If they can tell you about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!! (Don't tell them this though!) Either way it should be interesting, enjoy," You seemed to take offense at this. You wrote: --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > I am not going to get up and ask this question about panya. I > am surprised > at the comments posted on this topic. If panya arises, it > won't necessarily > be because I asked such a question. > > How can you all be so sure you know better than attendees at > the WFB > conference? How does this confidence arise? > > Is there something we should know about the WFB aside from the > obvious > faults of any international organsation? Is there some kind > of hidden > agenda or scandal that we should all be aware of?" I think you took Amara's comments a little seriously. As I indicated in my post you possibly might not meet so many peolple anyway. I only spoke to one at any length - and that person did a lot more talking than me. And there is no chance of you asking any questions to the whole assembly; only registered speakers can do that. She meant ask and discuss just as we do when we meet (is that what you meant Amara?)- that is how I took it anyway. I also don't think she meant to imply any scandals or hidden agendas- nor did my letter mean to. robert > > > 2100 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali Pinna It's great that you are willing to do this, and that Nina has agreed to you doing so. I am not quite clear as to what the problem is exactly. Have you tried using the program from before, and sending a sample page or 2 to Amara to see how it works when uploaded to her website? Jonothan --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote: > Dear DSSFB Group, > I'm getting set to retype Nina van Gorkom's letters > from about 1975 onward > for placement on the web (and perhaps eventually > other forms of > distribution) with her approval and permission. I > would like to use a font > that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words > on the web. > For my coursework (on Hindu-Buddhist architecture) > which went on the web, > the I.T. unit here at NUS (Singapore) used a program > 'embedded fonts' which > was able to display the fonts on I.Explorer 5. The > font I used was one I > created with Fontographer (for mac and pc) which I > can send to Amara (or > others who need such a font) and maybe it will work > in the same way our NUS > web works, but only through Explorer 5. I also have > something called > 'Dtimes' which works on mac (but I don't know if it > is around for pc). The > Word font Amara uses (Tahoma) for her own work is > not available on mac. > Does anyone have suggestions for solving this > problem? > Pinna > p.s. I much appreciate the lively discussions, > especially on abhidhamma, and > grapbling with 'reality.' 2101 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Jim A > I don't know if Jonothan is yet in Ottawa for the > conference, but I can tell > you that winter has finally arrived here (about a > week ago) and we had the > coldest night so far last night. My thermometer read > 2F (-17C) this > morning. Brrrr... it's time to throw another log on > the fire. I have in fact finished my visit to Ottawa, and managed to excape before the real cold set in (although it was quite cold enough at -3C, thank you). I hope you have a good supply of firewood for the next few months. Otherwise your energy will be used up keeping warm rather than studying texts! However, the study of realities can continue whatever the circumstances - adversity is no obstacle to awareness of the reality appearing at the present moment, once the understanding of that has been developed. Jonothan 2102 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:22pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali Dear Mike and Jonothan Thanks for the feedback. I have looked up Andy's page and will go back to it when I have more time and access to a printer (office hours). I do not work on Windows, but the font may be more suitable than the one I created. Jonothan, Amara has indicated to me that she does not put diacritical marks in the things she puts on the web, because they do not read properly on the screen and I do not know the technical details of 'embedded fonts' which our technical unit used for my course web page, but it took them a while to get it working. I don't know if Amara would be able to do it and it only works for Explorer 5 and above, so the question was for something more universal and readily available. I will, however, give Amara a copy of the font I made if we do not find anything else. I will check out Andy's font. Pinna > ---------- > From: m. nease > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2000 3:48 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali > > Dear Pinna Lee, > > > --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote: > > > I > > would like to use a font > > that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words > > on the web. > > I have downloaded several pali fonts, and can't > remember, now, where I got them all. But there are > several, I think, available via Andy Shaw's wonderful > 'Palitrans': > > http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/paltra.htm > > There's also a brilliant piece of software there Andy > created called Paliwords, which you can download. > > I believe that any font that Khun Amara installs on > her server will make it possible for us to view any > file saved in that font from her website. But I don't > know web technology at all well, so I may be (as is so > often the case!) mistaken. > > Hope this helps, and very nice to meet you. I'm > reading Nina's AIDL at present and it is immediately > in my personal top ten best books ever read (tipitaka > aside)--and vying for the number one spot. So > naturally I'm very glad to know that more of her > writing may soon be available on-line. > > So good luck, best wishes and I hope this helps! > > Mike > > > > > > 2103 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 10:58pm Subject: vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael Dear Robert, Sarah, Amara and Sukin After reading the e-mails exchanged recently and reflecting on the Dhamma discussions I have participated in at the Foundation, I have decided to suspend active participation in the list to research and write down my (mis)understanding of vipassana. This break will also give Sarah time to respond to the Teaching Vipassana Resources thread. Today's English language Dhamma discussion group at the Foundation was largely taken up with responding to my questions. Jack kindly offered to teach me some Abhidhamma. I may take him up on that later. After the session, Amara and I shook hands. I feel embarrassed that I have taken up so many good people's time and energy and yet stubbornly resist progress. I hope you all will be patient with me as I take this time out to research and write an essay or dot points or whatever it will become. If nothing else, the encounter with this group has stimulated me to search for the words to describe my understanding of vipassana. I also want to also find the Tipitaka sources for this understanding. If all goes to plan, I may then post the result to the list or take it to the discussion group or both. This document may then give Robert and others interested in vipassana meditation a clearer picture of my level, or the quality of understanding. If not then the document may form the basis for further discussions on these threads, particularly if it is linked back to the Tipitaka. Sukin told Neil and I this afternoon that it would be good for Foundation members to find a way to explain the problems of vipassana meditation to meditators who encounter the Foundation. So I proceed with the hope that further efforts to clarify these issues will benefit many others as well. I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will eventually answer those questions asked by Robert and Amara at a later date. Please stand by for a few days or a week. Michael J 2104 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Sarah and others coming to Bangkok Dear Sarah and others coming to Bangkok on the way to Cambodia Sarah you mentioned in an earlier e-mail that you will be in Bangkok before and after going to Cambodia. As I understand the routine (http://www.dhammastudy.com/schedule.html ), every first Saturday in the month is all day Dhamma discussion in Thai language at Khunying Noparatana's house. I don't know if you will be attending on Saturday, 2 December? I am still not sure myself yet. It is possible that I may be busy with other activities that Saturday. Perhaps we could meet on Sunday, 3 December? Unfortunately I shall be quite busy on the weekend of 9 and 10 Demember with voluntary work at the World Fellowship of Buddhists Conference. If you would like to meet I can be contacted by e-mail on protectID or by telephone in Bangkok on 216 0400 ext 3220. More contact details are on my web site http://www.ozemail,com.au/~jiesheng/ Michael J 2105 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:25am Subject: Re: vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael > I feel embarrassed that I have taken up so many good people's time and > energy and yet stubbornly resist progress. I hope you all will be patient > with me as I take this time out to research and write an essay or dot points > or whatever it will become. If nothing else, the encounter with this group > has stimulated me to search for the words to describe my understanding of > vipassana. I also want to also find the Tipitaka sources for this > understanding. Dear Michael, I really feel that you are overstretched, and need to take it easy, perhaps relax your work schedule a little. If I were you I would concentrate on your research and study a little with Jack, perhaps help him edit English tapes for the radio, so you can listen to some of our earlier English discussions, some of which are quite good, and get LOTS OF SLEEP. Remember all are only nama and rupa and you can't force anything to happen, just know them as they are, (and not try to name them so much, remember the present!) I hope you will join us while our friends from abroad are here, we hope to hold several discussions, some of which will be hosted be Sarah and Jonothan precisely. As the situation in Cambodia is rather unstable, there might be some changes in plan, but I hope to keep everyone updated, so please check here or call Elle and Ivan, whose numbers are also on the schedules page. See you soon, Amara 2106 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 9:54am Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Michael, Firstly, let's get this clear. No one is saying any of it is easy! Secondly, take it easy and just reply when you like. There needs to be plenty of consideration and digestion! Sorry for my delay..I'm going to go thr' now (7am on Sunday mornijng) to see if I have anything to add. I'll just mention a couple of points raised in yr later posts first. Please don't think that I or anyone else is trying to day 'don't go and do your vipassana meditation' or that it has no benefits. Personally, I think it may have many benefits, such as health benefits. But when we are talking about the development of satipatthana or vipassana as taught by the Buddha, that's another matter. for this, we need to look at 'our' practice very carefullly. I'm goint to cut out big chujnks of yr post, following yr earlier suggestions about the length of posts on this list! > > The main point I was trying to make in my earlier > message was that > instructing others about vipassana meditation is a > big responsibility with > consequences. Without a very good knowledge of the > Dhamma both from the > Tipitaka and insight through direct experience > setting up to be a teacher or > a student of such a teacher is frought with danger > despite possibly good > intentions. agreed. this raises the question of what is vipassana and what is meditation or bhavana? > > The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, > is to recommend to anyone > I meet who is interested in vipassana that they > should associate with people > who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of > Dhamma, listen to a lot of > Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course > run by trained and > experienced practioners, just as I have recommended > in this and the earlier > message. > By vipass med course I asume you mean one taught by Mr Goenka (or his students) or one in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition. What is the purpose and how does the course help? > Here are some links to texts for Dhamma teachers and > recommendations by the > Lord Buddha that we can read online in English > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html#sorts > Digha Nikaya 12 Lohicca Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-159.html > Anguttara Nikaya V.159 Udayi Sutta > (another sutta with relevance to aspiring teachers > of Dhamma) > good quotes and reminders about the practice, the development of understanding. Yes, it's one thing teaching the abhidhamma or meditation or anything else. It's another thing to develop understanding at this moment. So the qu is how is understanding developed at this moment? > Perhaps participating in a list like this we are > part student and part > teacher. I prefer to think of myself as student > because there is still so > much ignorance, greed and aversion. I'm sure we're all agreed on this. > > A teacher with so much ingnorance, greed and > aversion can knowingly and > unknowingly lead others astray, behave badly and > bring the Sasana into > disrepute. > > When we mention a relevant sutta or personal > experience we are not teaching > so much as exchanging information among friends in > the Dhamma. yes, well put. > raise questions. One of the long time followers > introduced two new people > (Thais), who had come down from Chiang Mai on the > way to enter a meditation > retreat in Bangkok. Ajahn Santi discouraged them > from going to the > meditation retreat and encouraged them instead to > listen to the Dhamma, just > as Tahn Ajahn Sujin and Nina Van Gorkom do. I'm not going to go into this one further. just to say, we need to be careful about judging others' motives...If you advise someone to go right instead of left, this is not what I'd call censorship...! > I agree with Tahn Ajahn Sujin, Ajahn Santi, Nina Van > Gorkom and others who > say that we should study the Dhamma so we know more > about the phenomena that > arise. I am glad that I had read widely before I > started meditating. > However, I disagree with anyone who says that > meditation is always a waste > of time or a useless activity. I understand that > phenomena arise and pass > away naturally without any control and that to sit > down thinking 'I am going > to purify this mind of mine' is wrong view. So, you're a little unusual in that you study the Dhamma and read widely first. As a result there are likely to be many more conditions for understanding at some level to arise and develop whether you 'meditate' or go to live in the forest or run around Bangkok. It's great that you appreciate the wrong view that is hard for most to recognise even intellectually. > Nevertheless, I still believe > it is wholesome to sit and watch the breathing to > calm the body and mind. I > believe it is skilful to 'choicelessly' note all the > phenomena arising at > six sense doors, as in satipatthana. This is > intermittent and there are > moments of sati, moments of day dreaming and so > forth. Sati is not under > any person's control and cannot be fixed or held on > to. > This is the crux of the matter. Watching the breathing is common, very common. I even do this in a breathing technique I learnt for asthma problems and in my yoga I do most days. The body and mind calm down and there are conditions for pleasant feelings (mostly!). There can be noting of sensations or other phenomena or there can be the 'sweeping' of sensations even. This is rather similar to the clearing of energy channels or chi that we experience here whilst doing Tai Chi or having acupuncture. The question is whether these experiences have anything to do with the understanding of realities, of seeing and visible object appearing now. If we agree that there can be realities appearing at these times (and why not?) then it means there is no reason why we shouldn't follow these activities if we enjoy them or find them useful for say our health as I do. If however, we follow them just because we think there will be more awareness at these times, like using a mirror to look at realities which aren't clear enough the rest of the time, then I question the understanding of the Buddha's teachings. I would also suggest that whenever we have the idea of another time, another place as being more suitable for the practice, that there's an idea of self luring behind this thinking. This can be quite subtle and is not unique to meditators. if we have the idea that a monk's like is more suitable (for our practice) or the trip to Cambodia even, again there is clinging (usually with wrong view) and certainly no undestanding or realities here and now. > I understand that many meditators get confused > between sati and samadhi. > It wasn't until I did vipassana that I became > convinced that Buddhist > vipassana is the way. So is there an idea of 'I do vipassana'? Books, including the Tipitaka > were great to read and > even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the > phenomena at the six sense > doors and reflecting on that experience in the light > of the Dhamma teaching > that proved it to me. I am not here referring to > any supernatural events, > bright lights, voices of deities etc. I am not here > claiming to have > achieved Nibbana or any other supreme state etc. well, this is really good because it's a real hindrance if there is an idea of having ticked off those stages when there isn't even the understanding of the difference between nama and rupa. > > Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and > practice, but I find that > calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of > breathing is a lot like a > quick spring clean through the mind and body with > opposite effects to those > of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or > sex on TV etc. When we > sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting > is a blameless activity > and that there is no person sitting or breathing > etc. Well as Robert has discussed, the citta determines what is blameless, not the activity. Who can tell by outer appearances? most of what we take for calm is attachment for sure. Breathing is a concept and not an object of satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any other concept. We can say many, many times that there is no person sitting and this is right thinking, but it is not right understanding of a reality.> > Sarah wrote: > > >What is an experienced practitioner? > > I understand that this term may be confusing. I mean some one who has been > on retreats and has the confidence of those who have been on retreats as one > who understands vipassana. This will be a debatable point for many. Each of > us must make a choice about this. Followers of this or that meditation > technique or this or that guru will provide different advice. We each have > to decide for our selves. Of course we should be aware of the Kalama Sutta > and other warnings of the Lord Buddha when choosing a teacher. Yes, very debatable. I know 'vipassana meditation' students who started on retreats with me in the very early 70s and to this date have never picked up a dhamma book and have no interest at all in abhidhamma. They'd get high marks. Nina VG on the other hand would get zero marks and Khun Sujin, just a few perhaps! I remember once having a long walk and chat with mr Goenka and Munindra (in Bodh Gaya). Munindra was teaching us both some very basic abhidhamma. In those days, mr Goenka was already quite well-known as a meditation teacher but knew very little abhidhamma. When I asked them even then why it was necessary to set aside a special time, they both agreed it wasn't, but said for the inexperienced, they needed these props. Well, my question now is why not start in the right way, rather than starting in the wrong way and changing it later. In other words, the practice should start with right view of realities as anatta. > > > Vipassana may not be learned on a course too. Some people will benefit while > others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or studying Tahn Ajahn > Sujin's books and talks. Some will benefit and others will not. Even among > those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little etc. I don't > think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a course. That > would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to something > learned by reading a book or participating in an internet list. Vipassana > is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activitie o.k. > Yes I agree with you here. However, for people who are still finding their > way through the books and various recommendations to this or that teacher, I > think a 'special course' provides a worldly way to begin study and > vipassana. Then as we begin to really understand, we can see that going on > courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the Buddha Dhamma and > that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is wrong view. sorry to be picky, but again how do 'we' begin vipassana? Like you say, on the last day, they may be told that compartmentalising practice is wrong, but still, this is what they've been taught that doing vipassana is all about..... These courses may have changed a lot since my very out-dated experiences, but what I found, like Robert's experience he mentioned, is that very limited questions are encouraged and there is very little (if any) open discussion on realities as detailed in the abhidhamma....one is just told to go and experience sensations and other realities with no knowledge of what these are. In your case, I would suggest that the benefit and any understanding developing during this time is more as a result of what you have read and considered than as a result of the meditation instructions. > > I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not restricted to > special courses or retreats. But going on a retreat may help the arising of > right view on this point. I haven't been on retreats taught in the west or > outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not before then, > everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at all times > regardless. Well if there is at least the right theoretical understanding of realities, in other words the development of vipassana, one could say that going to a movie or any other activity may help the right view. Of course, it is not the movie or the quiet meditation room, but the seeds planted from having heard and considered what is right that helps the right view. Today this may happen in the meditation room, tomorrow it may be in the cinema. if one clings to either venue as being the place where right view will arise it is wrong. This also applies to the Foundation Room too!> on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the guise of > Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves and their > students. Yes! it's good you care about this too. > > After death is rebirth and and death and rebirth and death and so on. Don't > be so attached to this life. It will soon end and another will begin. Are > you afraid to go to sleep? You know you will wake because you have a > lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death is not so > obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is certain unless > we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books? Wouldn't it > be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives eh! Well, i'm not sure where this was coming from, but 2 pts anyway. Firstly, I like to be reminded any number of times about the urgency of developing rt understanding at this moment. In this regard I find it helpful to be reminded by the Buddha that fire is on our heads and that death may come at any moment. This is not to condition attachment to life or fear but to remind us not to be neglectful of present conditioned realities, to develop understanding of these realities as anatta now. There is death at each moment too, this moment has gone and now another. I, personally, wouldn't be very onterested in recollecting past lives...each moment is just like this one and so at the end of life too....the more we understand this moment, the more we understand past lives and future lives. Robert gave a wonderful post recently on the subject of urgency (not in front of me but it was about the test of understanding whilst being murdered!). > > Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in ignorance and suffer > the consequences. o.k. > > This point is very very important. When we criticise meditators for sitting > and wanting to change themselves etc. are we not being hypocritical for not > criticing those who would want to change other people. Is there not a self > wanting to change some one, here or there, in both instances? Motives are > good but ignorance is present in both cases. The presence of ignornace will > create suffering and rebirth etc. > > Everything must be done with great care and diligence. Good points. We need to be honest about our motives. Just as when you encourage your children to share their sweets, there may be moments of wise (kusala) encouragement of wholesomeness and because they are your children, there may be moments of wishing they were more generous or were 'better' children with attachment. In the same way, when we question someone's 'practice' there will be many different cittas (moments of consciousness) arising, someone will be skilfull (we hope) and others not so. There are bound to be many moments of ignorance in between the kusala ones for SURE! It depends on conditions and this is why it's important to know more about different realities appearing now. Again when we speak or advise or sometimes criticise (this suggests dosa), there may or may not be any wrong view of self at that time. Michael, we need to learn as much as we can about realities being experienced now. I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you seem to be very concerned about others' motives.....over-enthusiastic, criticising, censoring, acting with a tight-fist etc.....It MIGHT be more helpful to you if you just listen to the words without trying to second-guess the motives. We really cannot know for others most the time, but even if they are not as skilful as we'd like, why let that deter us from hearing what may prove useful? > Sarah wrote that there are problems with searching for 'vipassana' on the > internet because it brings up a range of different understandings. Why do > you want to control which understandings appear? Yes there are some right > and wrong views. How do you know yours are right views? We each must find > the way. This is a good example of what I just said. On later posts you have referred to how I'm trying to 'censor' the internet in this regard! I must say, it's hard for me not to smile quite a lot! Yes, it's conditioning lobha! I can't even work out how to use a hotlink like Mike does so well and Jonothan has to bookmark all the useful Buddhist pages for me as I'm such an imbecile in this regard. The idea of being able to censor other sites is very funny but it might be fun to do! O.K. trying to be more serious, again it's like advising your kids if they ask you whether they should go right or left. Just because you advise them to go right hardly means you are trying to control them or censor their behaviour. In the example above, you advised Sotujanna (if I'm not mistaken) that she might search vipassana on the internet. Now I've never done this but I merely questioned the advice saying, in my opinion, I expected that there may be wrong views (i.e. not in accordance with the Buddha's teachings). For you, however, I'd say, go there, search it and report back. You've heard all the views anyway! This list is not about all giving exactly the same advice. Any right views expressed here or anywhere else do not belong to me or anyone else. Samma ditthi is samma ditthi. It understands realities and is anatta. It comes back to knowing the details of those realities again and I'm sure you're hearing plenty about them from khun Sujin. > > I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have right view or > at least have right view most of the time. Others might say that they have > more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most teachers will cite > the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the sacred texts etc. > We all interpret things according to our accumulated conditioning. We find > our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your right view is > better than someone else's? Michael, the only way to know what is right is to study the Tipitaka, listen, consider and test out what is right. Any understanding does not belong to any teacher or even to the Buddha. Yes, there is bound to be plenty of doubt and wondering in between. BUT there can be awareness and understanding of the thinking as another conditioned reality too! Also not mine, not a teacher's... > > I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn Ajahn Sujin but > haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and ignorant, I don't > know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the group about > find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It isn't that I > disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the belief. Pls remain sceptical and question, question, question. The Teachings are not to be accepted blindly and you'll find you hear something that makes sense at the Foundtion or here and then you'll go away and have plenty of doubts. Fine! Btw I don't claim to have found any way, as you put it. I claim to read, hear, consider and study the Buddha's Teachings which make a lot of sense to me, a lot lot more sense than the psychology I was originally trained in! Sometimes a little understanding develops, but this is just a beginning for a moment only and hardly constitutes having found the way, though I thank you for the compliment(?)! > > Practicing vipassana meditation with the lurking idea of a self who can be > aware is probably common with all beginners, no matter how long they have > practiced. This goes for all areas of life and not just meditation. The > lurking idea of self is present for most of us whatever we do. As ordinary > people puttujanna (?spelling) we need to realise this point. ..and it's great you see this as the lurking problem! There can be different moments, however....moments with wrong view of self, many more moments of clinging to self (not necessarily with wrong view) and in between moments with a little understanding. > > Sarah I hope that you and other Dhammastudygroup list members can be patient > with me. likewise!> > Sarah thank you for prompting me to consider these issues in more detail and > try to put them into words. I am trying to find a way to explain this > properly to Than Ajahn Sujin and the others in the Saturday English language > discussion group. It is very hard. I venture to say it is many times harder > than writing a PhD but also far more rewarding. It may be that at some > point in this struggle I will realise that it is pointless or that it is > over or something like that. Who knows? Michael, don't underestimate A.Sujin. She's heard similar difficulties so many, many times and understands exactly where you are coming from and will continue to patiently explain about realities for as long as you like. You're EXTREMELY fortunate to have these opportunities at this time tho' you'll be sceptical about this, I know! No worries! I'm not sure which struggle may prove pointless..? In any case this is more thinking about concepts. The thinking can be known as a reality now. Pls keep telling us about yr impressions of the discussions at the Foundtion too....like a diary...it keeps us in touch with topics being discussed there for one thing and yr impressions will be similar to others I'm sure. Certainly we're really looking f/w to meeting you, Sukin & Betty who we haven't met yet from this list. There may be some uncertainty about the Cambodia trip...(well isn't there always!)...We arrive on the Sat 2nd Dec. Jonothan will certainly go to part of the session at Khunying N's. I may or may not (he speaks Thai, but I don't). In any case, we'd like to arrange a very informal get together at the Shangrila (where we'll be staying) on say Sat 2nd at 4.30p.m. or on Sunday 3rd at same time (assuming no Eng disc is arranged then w/ K.S.) or both! If you or anyone else (Sukin, Betty, Ivan & Elle, Amara, Shin..) is inclined to come to either, maybe give me an indication off list with yr ph nos if I don't have them in case there are last minute changes. Hopefully Nina & Lodevick may join us too and maybe K.Sujin, but I wouldn't want to press this as she'll be so busy.... (Anyone can leave a message for us at the hotel too under ABBOTT j.) Time I got out for some fresh air and 2107 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 10:05am Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana ....the last line got cut out about fresh air and breakfast up the peak calling (maybe too late for the hike now!) Michael, we'll all look f/w to yr responses...but take yr time & see you next week! Sarah 2108 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 7:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say that the concept of breath cannot be the object of insight or vipassana. Of course there can be understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath or any other concept, but the object must be a reality such as softness/hardness or thinking. I also apologise for many typos...I started from this server and then found Michael's letter had been 'truncated', so I changed to the egroups 'master' list but found at the end I couldn't save a draft to check later after I came back from my hike, so it had to be clicked a little early! As I said, I'm a very slow internet learner! Sarah I said before >Breathing is a concept and not an object of satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any other concept. We can say many, many times that there is no person sitting and this is right thinking, but it is not right understanding of a reality.> 2109 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 9:22am Subject: Vancaka Pali > thina middha -> cheat(s) as > > > #samadhi > #papaviramanatha > #gnana > #paratthakamatha > #alpecchatha > > > eg- I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others I will let others > do it and get merit for themselves. Dear Gayan, and all our Pali literates, Last evening our experts convened to study Gayan's vancaka for the second time, (we have finished no. 4) and no one could figure out the following terms in Pali: > #papaviramanatha > #gnana > #paratthakamatha > #alpecchatha Could you send us the correct spellings and approximate meanings so that we could compare it with the Thai Pali? You have opened quite a can here and with Khun Sujin's comments it has taken a new depth for me, as something very intricate that one needs to be very careful in distinguishing. Looking forward to your reply and anumodana in advance, Amara 2110 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael Michael > After reading the e-mails exchanged recently and > reflecting on the Dhamma > discussions I have participated in at the > Foundation, I have decided to > suspend active participation in the list to research > and write down my > (mis)understanding of vipassana. I for one would be very sorry not to have your continued participation in the list. As I said in a recent post, we all have misunderstanding (wrong view) about vipassana, so you are not alone in that. It is the aim of this list to help everyone, by mutual support and encouragement, to have less of it. I would like to suggest an alternative approach. Adopting the model of you own excellent website, use this list as a sounding board for your work-in-progress. After all, to complete your magnum opus (because that's what it would turn out to be), you will need to answer such questions as what, according to the tipitaka, is vipassana, is bhavana, is meditation, is understanding, is practice, etc. These are the very questions which we all seek the answers to, from sources within the tipitaka. > Today's English language Dhamma discussion group at > the Foundation was > largely taken up with responding to my questions. > Jack kindly offered to > teach me some Abhidhamma. I may take him up on that > later. After the > session, Amara and I shook hands. I am glad to hear that peace has been made! I understand why you felt that Amara's comments on your WFB post were uncalled for. However, knowing Amara as I do I am sure she did not mean it the way you took it. It is just her style of writing. Anyway, initiation by fire in the form of an Amara post has become something of a ritual on this list, and you join some very distinguished company (Kom and Gayan included) who have survived with flying colours! [Think of it this way: Amara=Deva; Amara-fire=angel-fire] > Sukin told Neil and I this afternoon that it would > be good for Foundation > members to find a way to explain the problems of > vipassana meditation to > meditators who encounter the Foundation. So I > proceed with the hope that > further efforts to clarify these issues will benefit > many others as well. I am aware of this perception among those who first come across the Foundation. However, in my experience discussing this aspect is not particularly fruitful, as is shown by the recent less-than-edifying exchange on this list. This is not meant as a criticism, least of all of you as a relative newcomer to the list, but simply as an observation to be kept in mind for the future. If we stick to the nitty-gritty of what the Buddha had to say about things, we will all benefit. > I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will > eventually answer those > questions asked by Robert and Amara at a later date. > Please stand by for a > few days or a week. Take one or 2 points that interest you at a time, and don't feel obliged to respond to every point. Otherwise the sheer volume of mail becomes unmanageable. We would rather have you with us and participating than off the list trying to keep up! Looking forward to meeting you, and other listies, later this week. Jonothan 2111 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 10:53pm Subject: welcome Welcome to Kim G. for signing our guest book and with the hope that you will logon on join our discussions. It was a great pleasure to meet you at my son's temple last week and I hope we will stay in touch via the dhammastudy discussions. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 2112 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:05am Subject: Schedules Dear all, These are the latest updates on the next few weeks' schedules: Friday Dec. 1: arrival of our friends from abroad Sat. Dec. 2: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Khunying Noparatana's Sun. Dec. 3: 9.00-12.00 " " DSSFB (or the Shang?) Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali committee (vancaka). Mon.-Sat. morning- Dec. 4 - 9: Cambodia Sat. Dec. 9: 13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (flexible) Sun. Dec. 10: 9.00-12.00 " " DSSFB (or the Shang?) Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali committee (vancaka). Mon. Dec. 11: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Ivan and Elle's Tues. Dec. 12: 9.00-12.00 discussions at DSSFB (flexible) 13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (flexible) Wed.-Fri. morning- Dec. 13 - 15: Kanchanaburi Program ends **** Sarah and Jonothan, please contact me or Ivan and Ell if you would like to change or arrange anything on the flexible dates, Everyone, please keep checking our pages or with Ell and Ivan for changes and updates, and tell your friends, Thanks for your attention and anumodana, Amara 2113 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:49am Subject: Re: vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael > > Today's English language Dhamma discussion group at > > the Foundation was > > largely taken up with responding to my questions. > > Jack kindly offered to > > teach me some Abhidhamma. I may take him up on that > > later. After the > > session, Amara and I shook hands. > > I am glad to hear that peace has been made! I > understand why you felt that Amara's comments on your > WFB post were uncalled for. However, knowing Amara as > I do I am sure she did not mean it the way you took > it. It is just her style of writing. Anyway, > initiation by fire in the form of an Amara post has > become something of a ritual on this list, and you > join some very distinguished company (Kom and Gayan > included) who have survived with flying colours! > [Think of it this way: Amara=Deva; > Amara-fire=angel-fire] Dear Jonothan, Thanks to our deep, wide and calm river our peace is sanctified! By the way please look for my private note! Amara 2114 From: Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 2:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Jonathan, Actually I dont know how to translate them, thats why I put these here, mannana is a key word to understand samma ditthi, and a correct english translation will really help many people. in an another pali gatha , buddha says the beings ( satta) yena yena hi mannati, tato tam hoti annata 'the ignorant beings do mannana with various things, so the annata ( otherness) arises.' ( thisness and otherness is the cause of samsara vata ) I will give the references if I can find them quickly. rgds. Jonothan Abbott on 11/24/2000 08:47:36 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Gayan > as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati' > where as a sekha would do ' ma manni' > and an arahant would do 'na mannati'. Could you explain a little, or give a translation of the Pali terms, please. thanks Jonothan 2115 From: Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 3:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vancaka Pali Dear amara, papaviramanata- papa + viramana ( disliking the evil deeds ? ) [ for the correct meaning , I will have to go home and see the text, I will mail the exact thing tomorrow] gnana ( nana )- Knowledge parattakamata - para + atta + kama ( unselfishness, liking to do welfare for others ) alpeccata- alpa + icca ( requiring just a little , living on a small amout of resources) rgds. "amara chay" on 11/27/2000 07:22:27 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vancaka Pali > thina middha -> cheat(s) as > > > #samadhi > #papaviramanatha > #gnana > #paratthakamatha > #alpecchatha > > > eg- I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others I will let others > do it and get merit for themselves. Dear Gayan, and all our Pali literates, Last evening our experts convened to study Gayan's vancaka for the second time, (we have finished no. 4) and no one could figure out the following terms in Pali: > #papaviramanatha > #gnana > #paratthakamatha > #alpecchatha Could you send us the correct spellings and approximate meanings so that we could compare it with the Thai Pali? You have opened quite a can here and with Khun Sujin's comments it has taken a new depth for me, as something very intricate that one needs to be very careful in distinguishing. Looking forward to your reply and anumodana in advance, Amara 2116 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 5:39pm Subject: Re: Schedules Dear everyone, Some more precisions concerning the schedule: > These are the latest updates on the next few weeks' schedules: > > Friday Dec. 1: arrival of our friends from abroad > > Sat. Dec. 2: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Khunying Noparatana's (Thai) > > Sun. Dec. 3: 9.00-12.00 " " DSSFB (English) > Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali > committee (vancaka). > > Mon.-Sat. morning- Dec. 4 - 9: Cambodia > > Sat. Dec. 9: 13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (English) > > Sun. Dec. 10: 9.00-12.00 " " DSSFB (English) > Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali > committee (vancaka). (Thai) > > Mon. Dec. 11: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Ivan and Elle's (English) > > Tues. Dec. 12: 9.00-12.00 discussions at DSSFB (English) > 13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (English) > > Wed.-Fri. morning- Dec. 13 - 15: Kanchanaburi Amara 2117 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 6:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vancaka Pali Dear Amara, Thank you for letting us know about the continuing interest in The Vancaka. I am especially pleased that Khun Sujin is now commenting on them; and that you are finding them beneficial. I see several more meetings planned according to the schedule at the DSSF. I sent her Jim's except from the atthakatha along with a few of gayans translations and am glad she is going into it in more depth. It is one of those topics that is so daily life - we are always mistaking subtle akusala for kusala. Sometimes we correct someone who has a wrong view but we do with a citta rooted in dosa (aversion), not compassion, or we feel so satisfied in proving OURSELF to be right. Or, as Michael explained, we write something useful and then feel conceit. These akusala are bound to arise but by learning about the way akusala(unwholesomeness) masquerades as kusala we can start to see through them. We are not so fooled - and that is an aspect of wisdom. After a certain point these vangaka become so refined that only the person who actually has them can know if they are present- but he will only know if sufficient understanding arises. Robert > > Dear Gayan, and all our Pali literates, > > Last evening our experts convened to study Gayan's vancaka for > the > second time> You have opened quite a can here and with Khun Sujin's > comments it > has taken a new depth for me, as something very intricate that > one > needs to be very careful in distinguishing. > > Looking forward to your reply and anumodana in advance, > > Amara > > 2118 From: Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 0:10am Subject: Pertinent Post Dear Friends, This is borrowed from Pariyatti Book Service's 'Daily Words of the Buddha'. Thought it struck a particularly resonant note for this group: Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential. Dhammapada 11 Concepts w/sakkaya-ditthi vs. paramattha dhamma? The story of MY life... 2119 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 0:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for the schedule update. Do you have any current information on scheduling of broadcasts in English of Ajahn Sujin's talks on internet radio? My apologies if you've posted this all before. Thanks in advance... mn 2120 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 1:30am Subject: Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9 > Do you have any > current information on scheduling of broadcasts in > English of Ajahn Sujin's talks on internet radio? Dear Mike, We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30 BKK time since that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get it, would make one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both in English, starting this Dec. 1st, 2000. We are way behind editing the tapes, though, so it migh be a while before the English really air. Sorry for the delay, it's been a bit hectic lately! I would like to also announce the schedule of the first half of December in the newsletter section (Newsletter 9) at just finished uploading. Have a look at the lovely background! Enjoy, Amara 2121 From: Michael Olds Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 2:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi On Ma~n~nati, Hello. I may be able to contribute something to the discussion of Ma~n~nati. Please allow me, as a first posting, to jump right in. Start with the Pali/English Dictionary: [Related to Greek: “Mood”, “Anger” “To Think of” “Wish to”; Latin: memini, to think of, mens>mind, meneo; Gothic: Munan, to think, muns, opinion; Old Islandic: man; Old High German: minna, love; Anglo Saxon: myne, intention] Primary: To think, to be of opinion, to imagine, to deem. The short form: ma~n~ne is used like an adverb: as affirmative particle and is inserted without influencing the grammatical or syntactical construction of the sentence; meaning: “methinks”. Secondary: To imagine, to be proud, to be conceited, to boast. Man > mind > >mentation > In the Pali, I believe “thinking” is what is intended when this word is used for mental activity. Jonothan’s examples look like they are from the Mulapariyaya: what a puthujjana does is ' mannati' ma~n~nati where as a sekha would do ' ma manni' maa ma~n~ni and an arahant would do 'na mannati'. na ma~n~nati The Ordinary Common Man Thinks About Pa.thavi The Seeker says [to himself] “think not” of Pa.thavi The Arahant doesn’t [Arahants don’t] think about Pa.thavi In regard to Gayan’s statement that: ma~n~nana is a key word to understand sammaa ditthi. How we think evolves out of our View. [and, as in the example, but here from the ones: first comes mind, and then follow all good and bad conditions whatsoever.]“Thinking about” is the state of one who has low views, for one who has high view, there is no thinking about (or, at least, “thinking about” can be easily identified as a straying from high view) because the view has been set. The middle practice is Thinking About High View, but that should be seen as a temporary measure to provide for a stepping stone between thinking about the world from the usual points of view and not thinking about the world. At such a time as it is clearly “seen” as it really is, thinking about it is no longer needed. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm ICQ#94992160 2122 From: Michael Olds Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 4:50am Subject: PS Lotta Mikes here, (being dragged around by our name? Who is God?) You can call me MO. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm ICQ#94992160 2123 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 6:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] PS Hey, MO, Jesus! You know Hebrew, too?! I started out here as mn, but was encouraged to use 'Mike'. That last post was wonderful, look forward to more. Is philology your (professional) field, by the way? Best Regards, Mike --- Michael Olds wrote: > Lotta Mikes here, (being dragged around by our name? > Who is God?) You can > call me MO. 2124 From: Michael Olds Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 6:57am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] PS mnike, >You know Hebrew, too? No, just lived in New York for a long time. Is philology your (professional) field? Also no, I have no profession, although I have been called Professor Professor. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm ICQ#94992160 2125 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 7:48am Subject: another welcome Dear Mo, A big welcome here...yes we like new 'faces' or rather new styles and expertise....I'm going to take yr 1st post out to breakfast to 'digest' as I'm running late now! Many thanks and we look f/w to hearing plenty from you and it's great if you can help us fill in some of those interesting and difficult terminologies and etymologies. We always encourage new members to say a little about themselves with regard to their interest in dhamma, so if you feel inclined to tell us more, pls do. (Not compulsory!) Thanks & Mo sounds fine it that's o.k. with you. Professor Professor is a little too long to type out ev.time! Mike is the original Mike on list so he gets to keep that (actually mnike is an interesting deviation.. !) and then we have Michael J who keps the longer name to match his longer posts! now I'm really running late! welcome, anyway Sarah --- Michael Olds wrote: > mnike, > > >You know Hebrew, too? > > No, just lived in New York for a long time. > > Is philology your (professional) field? > > Also no, I have no profession, although I have been > called Professor > Professor. > > > Best Wishes! > Michael Olds California > > http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm > ICQ#94992160 > > 2126 From: Michael Olds Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:09am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] another welcome Sarah, Thank you for the welcome. I hope I can contribute a little, learn something, and get away before I make too much trouble! Best Wishes! Michael Olds California http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] another welcome Dear Mo, A big welcome here...yes we like new 'faces' or rather new styles and expertise....I'm going to take yr 1st post out to breakfast to 'digest' as I'm running late now! Many thanks and we look f/w to hearing plenty from you and it's great if you can help us fill in some of those interesting and difficult terminologies and etymologies. We always encourage new members to say a little about themselves with regard to their interest in dhamma, so if you feel inclined to tell us more, pls do. (Not compulsory!) Thanks & Mo sounds fine it that's o.k. with you. Professor Professor is a little too long to type out ev.time! Mike is the original Mike on list so he gets to keep that (actually mnike is an interesting deviation.. !) and then we have Michael J who keps the longer name to match his longer posts! now I'm really running late! welcome, anyway Sarah --- Michael Olds wrote: > mnike, > > >You know Hebrew, too? > > No, just lived in New York for a long time. > > Is philology your (professional) field? > > Also no, I have no profession, although I have been > called Professor > Professor. > > > Best Wishes! > Michael Olds California > > http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm > ICQ#94992160 > > 2127 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:39am Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > Hello. I may be able to contribute something to the discussion of Ma~n~nati. > Please allow me, as a first posting, to jump right in. Dear Mo, Wow!! and welcome to a spectacular debutant! Looking forward to more of your scrumptious posts, Amara 2128 From: Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 0:12pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear MO, :o) Thanks for the compassionate explanation, Just feel free to make trouble here...( oops..can I say that , Abbot Sir Madam? ) trouble is what we all need, after all this is not the brahma life which will be trouble free for aeons but still glued to the samsara.... pls trigger for more 'trouble' and hopefully more 'samvega' will arise :oD rgds. 2129 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 1:26pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Mike O, You might remember me from earlier this year when we corresponded on the Pali Old-line list, moderated by yourself. Welcome to the discussion! Dear gayan, I liked your little reminder about Samsara. I was just thinking today how amazing it is that these bodies keep going for as long as they do. Each moment is conditioned in manifold ways, and those conditions are likewise conditioned. Now we are in the human realm but we don't know when, maybe a few short processes from now, cuti-citta(death consciousness ) will arise and then patisandhi will ocur in a new life, as animal or man or deva or somewhere else. Robert --- wrote: > > > > > > Dear MO, > > :o) > > Thanks for the compassionate explanation, > Just feel free to make trouble here...( oops..can I say that , > Abbot Sir Madam? > ) > > trouble is what we all need, after all this is not the brahma > life which will be > trouble free for aeons but still glued to the samsara.... > > pls trigger for more 'trouble' and hopefully more 'samvega' > will arise > > > :oD > > rgds. > > > 2130 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 2:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5 Dear Jim, As we previously discussed, not only the current citta conditions the next citta to arise (anantara), it must also condition the next citta to arise in order (samanantara). I believe it is possible to make a chart that lists the cittas that can arise after a particular citta based on the information in the tipitikas. For examples, cuti citta -> patisanti citta patisanti citta -> bhavanga citta bhavanga citta -> bhavanga citta/panca-dvara citta/mano-dvara citta/??? There are some more restricted ordering near cuti citta, patisanti citta, jhana citta, lokuttara citta, and possibly others. However, trying to make this into a truly deterministic (like a state machine) chart is most likely to be beyond a layperson (impossible??? except for samasam-buddha), as it involves knowing the exact conditioning dhammas, their degrees, timings, etc. that determine the next citta. In summary, what I understand are the followings: 1) Except for an Arahat's citta, a citta must condition the next citta to arise (even after some cessation in the case of asanna-satta-brahma or an anagami or an arahat in certain meditation states) 2) It must condition the next citta in order. There may be a choice of just one or more than one possible following cittas. I believe it is possible to list the choices for all possible following cittas. 3) Given more than one possible citta, you will need to know all possible conditioning cittas, their strengths and degrees, and their timings, to know which one would be the next one. Now, given the general discussion, let me take a shot at your specific questions. Q) the arising of a thought moment which conditions the next thought moment A) I assume a thought moment here means a whole series (the entire vara of vithi cittas) experiecing pannatti as the aramana: in fact, a bunch of series in succession. If we assume the followings: mano-dvara-vithi -> bhavanga (at least 2?) -> mano-dvara-vithi -> bhavanga (at least 2?) -> ... mano-dvara-vithi comprises of: i) mano-dvara-vithi citta (1) ii) javana citta (kusala/akusala/kiriya for an arahat) (7) iii) (there is no thatalampana as the entire vithi experiences pannatti) Then it is easy to see how the general explanations 1) and 2) can be applied. Q) So it is the order that is crucial here? Is that right. That a particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, but a particular citta in a chain of causation? Is this deterministic A) I hope the general explanation answers this set of questions. Q) is it possible, through meditation, to break such a sequence? A) The jhana citta doesn't really break such a sequence. It just "chooses" one of the next possible cittas to arise, one that is different from the non-jhana citta. It may also causes the delay of the next citta to arise for a period of time, but certainly the next citta must arise after jhana citta after the cessation. kom --- Jim Wilson wrote: > --- Kom Tukovinit > > I wonder if you could give an example of how the two categories would > > be used in an explanation of the arising of a thought moment which > conditions the next thought moment? > > So it is the order that is crucial here? Is that right. That a > particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, > but a particular citta in a chain of causation? Is this > deterministic, or is it possible, through meditation, to break such a > sequence? 2131 From: wewynal Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 2:37pm Subject: Cause of suffering How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question "What is the cause of suffering?" Please help. Thank you. ~ Wynn 2133 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Gayan > Actually I dont know how to translate them, thats > why I put these here Could have fooled me. You seem to have such a good grasp of the texts. I thought I was the only one who didn't understand it! > mannana is a key word to understand samma ditthi, > and a correct english translation will really help > many people Yes, I'm beginning to get a sense of its importance. But I am also beginning to doubt that a suitable terms exists in English. Bhikkhu Bodhi says as much in his introduction. Perhaps you and Amara could tell us something about the terms that are used in Singhala and Thai to translate this term? > in an another pali gatha , buddha says > > the beings ( satta) yena yena hi mannati, tato tam > hoti annata > > 'the ignorant beings do mannana with various things, > so the annata ( otherness) > arises.' > > ( thisness and otherness is the cause of samsara > vata ) > > > I will give the references if I can find them > quickly. Thanks. I look forward to that. Jonothan 2134 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:56pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Michael O Welcome to the list, and many thanks for the very thoughtful and extensive explanation. > Jonothan’s examples look like they are from the > Mulapariyaya: Yes, I think this is so (actually they were Gayan's examples). Haveing been spurred to look it up, here is part of what BB says about the term in the introduction to his translation: "The word "mannana" signifies a different, more developed type of thinking [than simple discursive thinking], one that is unwholesome and always involves a wrong grasp of the object. ... I have [translated] it as "conceiving", though this English word hardly does justice to the full meaning of the original." > what a puthujjana does is ' mannati' ma~n~nati > where as a sekha would do ' ma manni' maa ma~n~ni > and an arahant would do 'na mannati'. na ma~n~nati > > The Ordinary Common Man Thinks About Pa.thavi > The Seeker says [to himself] “think not” of Pa.thavi > The Arahant doesn’t [Arahants don’t] think about > Pa.thavi The commentary explains that the worldling, since he has not abandoned any of the "conceivings" [of which there are 4], is described as one who conceives. The arahat, who has abandoned them all, is described as one who does not conceive. The learner has abandoned the conceiving of view and has diminished the others; he is neither one who conceives, like the worldling, nor one who does not conceive, like the arahat. > In regard to Gayan’s statement that: ma~n~nana is a > key word to understand > sammaa ditthi. How we think evolves out of our View. > [and, as in the > example, but here from the ones: first comes mind, > and then follow all good > and bad conditions whatsoever.]“Thinking about” is > the state of one who has > low views, for one who has high view, there is no > thinking about (or, at > least, “thinking about” can be easily identified as > a straying from high > view) because the view has been set. The middle > practice is Thinking About > High View, but that should be seen as a temporary > measure to provide for a > stepping stone between thinking about the world from > the usual points of > view and not thinking about the world. At such a > time as it is clearly > “seen” as it really is, thinking about it is no > longer needed. Michael, we are very fortunate to have your input to the list. I look forward to your participation in the discussions. Jonothan 2135 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] PS MO > Lotta Mikes here, (being dragged around by our name? > Who is God?) You can > call me MO. OK, got it! Jonothan 2136 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:00pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Gayan > Thanks for the compassionate explanation, > Just feel free to make trouble here...( oops..can I > say that , Abbot Sir Madam?) Watch your step, lad Abbott Sir 2137 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering Wynn > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question > "What is the cause of suffering?" I think you have set yourself a very difficult task. Allow yourself plenty of time! Surely the person would need to understand what 'suffering' is, before you can talk about its cause. This seems to me the more difficult of the 2 to grasp/convey. Does the person have any idea about this? Jonothan 2138 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Jonothan, --- Jonothan & Sarah Abbott wrote: > Breathing is a concept and not an object of > satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of > vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any > other concept. Now that you've said this, it seems quite obvious. Still, this single sentence is (for myself) the clearest and most succinct explanation of the underlying differences we've been discussing to date. This is meant as a personal observation only, as it perfectly highlights the biggest (perhaps) wrong turning that I took when attempting institutionalized vipassana bhavana. Whether or not this is true for anyone else is clearly a matter for individual investigation. This, to me, is the great advantage of this group and its specific focus on abhidhamma--had I not had the good luck(?!) to encounter you all, I don't think I'd have ever made the distinction between paramattha dhamma and concept. Thanks again! Mike 2139 From: Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:39pm Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana Dear SARAH (sorry!), --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say > that the concept of breath cannot be the object of > insight or vipassana. Of course there can be > understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath > or any other concept, but the object must be a reality > such as softness/hardness or thinking. Well! Having previously applauded the sentence you've corrected here, I'm doubly curious. Is it true that understanding or insight may arise while the mind is 'darting among unrealities'? Seems I need to look at this a little more closely. I guess that, given that only one citta can arise at a time, with only one object, the problem is with the expression. Not really a 'mind darting'...still, this does bring to mind the simile of trying to get milk by twisting a cow's horn. Please excuse my rambling. Maybe I'm just mixed up in semantics. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance...Mike 2140 From: amara chay Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:48pm Subject: Re: Cause of suffering > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question "What is the cause of suffering?" Dear Wynn, I would recommend that those interested read an article in the intermediate section of called 'Kamma', where the cause of dukkha, not only suffering but impermanence, is quite well explained. Other shorter Q&As such as 2 and 3(2nd part) might also be of some use. Shorter still are the FAQs where most non-Buddhists will see many of their most frequent questions discussed, which might provide some perspectives to their questions. Hope you find something useful, Amara 2141 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Breath was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Mike, There is a little more to it than Sarah indicated. (This wasn't her main point so she naturally didn't go into detail- and note that she made a slight correction in a later post) Almost always breath is concept when we are aware of it. Especially when it is used as an object for samattha and a nimitta arises this is obviously concept. And even during vipassana when there is awareness of the different namas and rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with breath - the breath itself is not an object for satipatthana. However breath is actually composed of rupas that are conditioned ONLY by citta (citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of wisdom can actually distinguish between the rupas that are citta-samutthana -rupa and say those that are utu -samutthana-rupa. Thus we might think we are experiencing the rupas that are conditioned by citta but actaully be observing other types - it is exceedingly hard to know. And most of the time whatever rupa we experience is seen only with vinnana(consciousness) and sanna (perception) but not with panna (wisdom). Breath is a real hard one. (Isn't it all?) Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > --- Jonothan & Sarah Abbott > wrote: > > > Breathing is a concept and not an object of > > satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of > > vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any > > other concept. > > Now that you've said this, it seems quite obvious. > Still, this single sentence is (for myself) the > clearest and most succinct explanation of the > underlying differences we've been discussing to date. > > This is meant as a personal observation only, as it > perfectly highlights the biggest (perhaps) wrong > turning that I took when attempting institutionalized > vipassana bhavana. Whether or not this is true for > anyone else is clearly a matter for individual > investigation. > > This, to me, is the great advantage of this group and > its specific focus on abhidhamma--had I not had the > good luck(?!) to encounter you all, I don't think I'd > have ever made the distinction between paramattha > dhamma and concept. Thanks again! > > Mike > > 2142 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 0:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana Dera Mike, Since sarah is usually tardy in replying and I will add a little more. See my comments below. --- ups.com, Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say > > that the concept of breath cannot be the object of > > insight or vipassana. Of course there can be > > understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath > > or any other concept, but the object must be a reality > > such as softness/hardness or thinking. > > Well! Having previously applauded the sentence you've > corrected > here, I'm doubly curious. Is it true that understanding or > insight > may arise while the mind is 'darting among unrealities'? > Seems I > need to look at this a little more closely. > > I guess that, given that only one citta can arise at a time, > with > only one object, the problem is with the expression. Not > really > a 'mind darting'... The Visuddhimagga says that this object it is not for ordinary people but only for Mahapurisa - great ones such as Rahula and the other 80 great disciples of the Buddha. It says that mindfulness of breathing appears easy but is the probably the hardest of the 38 objects of samattha. This doesn't mean that ordinary people can't develop it but it needs a lot of care and background and prior development in past lives. When it is developed as an object of samattha there will come a time when a nimitta appears and that is taken as the object - this is a concept as Sarah notes. ' It is also included in the satipatthana sutta and we may wonder why since it is an object for samattha. For one thing for those who are released in both ways (no longer viable)after leaving jhana the jhana cittas themselves can be object for staipatthana. Even for those whose vehicle is pure vipassana while focusing on the breath many different realities appear (because the mind is such that it cannot continually focus on one object except during jhana) So at times vedana, feeling, may be predomint (vedanupassana) and thus taken as an object for sati, at other times rupa, such as hardness or heat (kayanupassana). At other times drowsiness (dhammanupassana sati) and this is an object. These are just a few possibilities. This is the way vipassana develops no matter whether in daily life or whether one lives under a tree. No matter whether breath is the object or not. Avijja is always darting among concepts but in between panna is arising and seeing paramattha dhammas as they are, little by little. Try and force it though and it is sure to be done with an idea of self. It is panna (wisdom) that arises and knows- that is its function. The essential conditions for this (re;your post yesterday) is profound and repeated reflection about dhammas which conditions yoniso manasikara(wise attention) to the various objects that are arising. Being in a quiet place can be a supporting condition for this to occur, but it is not at all an essential condition. Robert 2143 From: Michael Olds Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 0:52am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering Jonothan, Robert, Wynn, Jonothan, thanks for the welcome, mostly I have come to learn. A few folks here know my style and know that I have no familiarity at all with the Abhidhamma. So I hope I will listen well. Robert, howdy, glad to run into you again. Wynn, I go along with Jonothan here: start with DUKKHA. I have a fair amount of experience trying to teach people about DUKKHA. I have found that the word you use for DUKKHA makes a lot of difference. Most all men in America, for example, will decline to admit that they "suffer." Tell them about "Angst" or "Anxiousness" and that's the last they will listen to you. They all acknowledge that they experience Pain. Almost all people will admit that they are vulnerable to experiencing Pain. The justification for using this word is easy: in the Digha, MahaSatipatthana sutta, section on Dhamma at the end, under The Four Truths, for the Definition of DUKKHA you get one contrasted pair which is DUKKHA and MISERY; Physical Pain and Mental Pain. So at one point DUKKHA is defined as Pain. (To be used exactly as in English, defining Physical or mental pain by it's context). This is also where to look for a broad detailed definition of Dukkha and of the Origin of Dukkha. In terms of getting across the idea that it is Hunger/Thirst that is the cause of DUKKHA, look to the example where the Buddha was trying to teach the concept to someone he had a pretty good idea would not grasp the idea if put in philosophical terms. He asked him if there were not some individual in his home town who, if they met with death or serious injury, or incarceration would cause him to feel upset. Of course he said that there was such a person. Then the Buddha asked if there were people in the man's home town about whom he would care nothing if they met with death, injury, or incarceration. And again there were such individuals. Then he asked the man to describe what it was that was the reason that in one case he would feel bad and in the other not. Of course the answer was that in the one case he cared and in the other he did not. Finally, one other idea: let the questions come to you. It is a very strong learning experience to teach another Dhamma, but this can be dangerous also. If the other individual senses that it is not his interests you have in mind when teaching, he will back off, understanding that his teacher is not practicing the Objective Detachment he is teaching. The best measure of the other person's interests is the exact question they have asked. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering Wynn > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question > "What is the cause of suffering?" I think you have set yourself a very difficult task. Allow yourself plenty of time! Surely the person would need to understand what 'suffering' is, before you can talk about its cause. This seems to me the more difficult of the 2 to grasp/convey. Does the person have any idea about this? Jonothan 2144 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:18am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering Good one, Mo, --- Michael Olds wrote: I've sometimes also found it useful to point out (to myself, also) that in any unhappiness, desire can always be found--even if only the desire for something to be other than it is. This doesn't take much more than a little cursory introspection. If the listener is willing and open-minded, I think this is a nice conceptual introduction to the second noble truth. mnike 2145 From: wewynal Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering I think he already understood "suffering" in the Buddhist sense. I explained that to him already. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering > Wynn > > > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question > > "What is the cause of suffering?" > > I think you have set yourself a very difficult task. > Allow yourself plenty of time! > > Surely the person would need to understand what > 'suffering' is, before you can talk about its cause. > This seems to me the more difficult of the 2 to > grasp/convey. Does the person have any idea about > this? > > Jonothan > > 2146 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Sarah, In a message dated: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:01 AM EST you wrote: >You also raise the subject of breath and anapannasati. >Others have mentioned their meditations on breath too. >This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to >hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect. > >You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which case >pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I know >you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply and >respect that you may not want to discuss your own >'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the >translation work too! I don't mind discussing some aspects of the practice of anapanassati such as its purpose and goal. From reading recent posts on this list it appears that some members, including you and Amara, do not practise meditation or are not interested in doing so. I have no problem with this and can accept that there can be other ways of looking at and practising dhamma that differ from my own. I believe that ultimately everyone has to find the way best suited for him or her. This is probably the first Theravada group (DSSF) that I have encountered that does not encourage people to meditate. However, the main reason I'm on this list is the shared interest in the Abhidhamma teachings and the development of understanding. I should give a little bit of my meditation background to help you understand why I'm interested in this practice. I have been meditating regularly since 1973 and have done many meditation retreats alone or with a group. The meditation centres that I have stayed at are Samye Ling, Scotland, 1973; Karme Choling, Vermont, 1974, 1978, 1982; Insight Meditation Society, Barre, MA 1976, 1978; & The Dharma Centre of Canada, Ontario, many times from 1979 to 1992. I stopped attending group retreats about nine years ago when I felt that they were no longer helping me and that I would be better off just to carry on by myself. I think my approach to meditation falls on the side of samatha instead of the more popular vipassana. My main purpose in meditating is to develop concentration to a higher degree in the direction of the jhanic attainments. I understand that, according to the Visuddhimagga, XIV.7, concentration is the proximate cause of understanding. This became clear to me in 1985 when I had a direct insight experience that I knew could not have taken place without the associated calmness of a concentrated mind I was also experiencing. So for me I consider a higher degree of concentration to be an excellent support for developing understanding. Towards the end of the long list of 56 arupino dhammas of the first kusala citta in the Dhammasangani there are three pairs of terms: sati & sampajanna, samatha & vipassana, paggaha & avikkhepa. Of the three pairs, I consider my practice to be based on the middle pair: samatha & vipassana (meditation & dhamma study). Others may prefer to base their practice on the first pair (with mindfulness) instead. Thanks for your other comments in the same message. I have sent this response several times since Sunday but none of them got through, so this is a 5th try with some editorial changes to the original response. I continue to have email problems but the messages from egroups are getting to me although yahoo has been sending me 3 to 6 copies of the same message. May you and the others have a safe and pleasant journey to Bangkok and Cambodia. Jim A. 2147 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering Dear Wyn, What is suffering in the Buddhist sense? Robert --- wewynal wrote: > I think he already understood "suffering" in the Buddhist > sense. I explained > that to him already. 2148 From: Satisotujana Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:15am Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2149?expand=1 Introducing the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061166114009152031050057046140006253136248038136183193071193172194143142 listerv! This list is for anyone interested in Theravada Buddhism, and specifically with the practice of mindfulness (sati) and the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana). We will discuss the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas as well as all issues relating to both meditation and mindfulness in everyday life. The list is unmoderated and welcomes all serious, mature disscusants. You may subscribe from our Webpage: http://satipatthana.org/ With Metta, Satisotujana 2149 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 10:54am Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2149?expand=1 > Introducing the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061166114009152031050057046140006253136248038136183193071193172194143142 listerv! > > This list is for anyone interested in Theravada Buddhism, and > specifically with the practice of mindfulness (sati) and the four > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana). We will discuss the > Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas as well as all issues relating to > both meditation and mindfulness in everyday life. The list is > unmoderated and welcomes all serious, mature disscusants. > > You may subscribe from our Webpage: > http://satipatthana.org/ Dear Satisotujana Congratulations! It's most beneficial to discuss the dhamma and we hope you have numerous participants! I hope also that you will not be too busy to look in here from time to time, you are not leaving us, are you? See you soon on the list, Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, Amara 2150 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:05am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering ÿþ 2151 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear jim, Just a couple of comments. Anyone who is going to develop samattha needs many supporting conditions. These include seclusion and long periods of application- and I think you have all these in abundance. Secondly it needs a lot of wisdom which depends on careful study and interpretation of the pali texts - and as you mentioned your reliance on the Patisambhidhimagga (where they stress so much on how desire can slip in), you have a good basis there too. On the quote from the Visudhimagga I might write some more about concentration and how it is a support for panna tonight (am at work now). I guess the countryside is looking a litle white where you are? Winter is just beginning here in the south of Japan and we usually have one or two days where it snows in late January. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > In a message dated: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:01 AM EST > you wrote: > > >You also raise the subject of breath and anapannasati. > >Others have mentioned their meditations on breath too. > >This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to > >hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect. > > > >You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which case > >pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I know > >you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply and > >respect that you may not want to discuss your own > >'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the > >translation work too! > > I don't mind discussing some aspects of the practice of > anapanassati such as > its purpose and goal. From reading recent posts on this list > it appears > that some members, including you and Amara, do not practise > meditation > or are not interested in doing so. I have no problem with this > and can > accept that there can be other ways of looking at and > practising dhamma that > differ from my own. I believe that ultimately everyone has to > find the way > best suited for him or her. This is probably the first > Theravada group > (DSSF) that I have encountered that does not encourage people > to meditate. > However, the main reason I'm on this list is the shared > interest in the > Abhidhamma teachings and the development of understanding. > > I should give a little bit of my meditation background to help > you > understand why I'm interested in this practice. I have been > meditating > regularly since 1973 and have done many meditation retreats > alone or with a > group. The meditation centres that I have stayed at are Samye > Ling, > Scotland, 1973; Karme Choling, Vermont, 1974, 1978, 1982; > Insight Meditation > Society, Barre, MA 1976, 1978; & The Dharma Centre of Canada, > Ontario, > many times from 1979 to 1992. I stopped attending group > retreats about nine > years ago when I felt that they were no longer helping me and > that I would > be better off just to carry on by myself. I think my approach > to meditation > falls on the side of samatha instead of the more popular > vipassana. My main > purpose in meditating is to develop concentration to a higher > degree in the > direction of the jhanic attainments. I understand that, > according to the > Visuddhimagga, XIV.7, concentration is the proximate cause of > understanding. > This became clear to me in 1985 when I had a direct insight > experience that > I knew could not have taken place without the associated > calmness of a > concentrated mind I was also experiencing. So for me I > consider a higher > degree of concentration to be an excellent support for > developing > understanding. > > Towards the end of the long list of 56 arupino dhammas of the > first kusala > citta in the Dhammasangani there are three pairs of terms: > sati & > sampajanna, samatha & vipassana, paggaha & avikkhepa. Of the > three pairs, I > consider my practice to be based on the middle pair: samatha & > vipassana > (meditation & dhamma study). Others may prefer to base their > practice on the > first pair (with mindfulness) instead. > > Thanks for your other comments in the same message. I have > sent this > response several times since Sunday but none of them got > through, so this is > a 5th try with some editorial changes to the original > response. I continue > to have email problems but the messages from egroups are > getting to me > although yahoo has been sending me 3 to 6 copies of the same > message. > > May you and the others have a safe and pleasant journey to > Bangkok and > Cambodia. > > Jim A. > > 2152 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:15am Subject: cause of suffering Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering Dear Wynn, Won't it be better if you ask your Non-buddist friend that what is suffering to him, because basic or common understanding of suffering in every individual is very different. It is better for us to understand what is his understanding of suffering first, and from there we can know how to begin the right understanding to him. And after his understanding of suffering, then going to the cause of suffering later. sincerely, Ms.Shin 2153 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Jim A, Thank you so much for your interesting and open comments and all the detail you give. I'm sorry you're having trouble w/yahoo/egroups...you're not alone. I'm not sure which is worse: a) receiving multiple copies of evrything as you do or b) sending out repeat copies as I was. My solution in the end was to change server. I may refer back to some of your comments later (probably after the trip as I'm frantically juggling students, parents, office work and getting ready). I would like to just comment and raise a question on the first part of your post for now. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I don't mind discussing some aspects of the practice > of anapanassati such as > its purpose and goal. From reading recent posts on > this list it appears > that some members, including you and Amara, do not > practise meditation > or are not interested in doing so. I have no problem > with this and can > accept that there can be other ways of looking at > and practising dhamma that > differ from my own. I believe that ultimately > everyone has to find the way > best suited for him or her. This is probably the > first Theravada group > (DSSF) that I have encountered that does not > encourage people to meditate. I think we need to ask the qus. 'what is meditation' and what does it mean 'to practise meditation'? I've just checked my Oxford dict. which defines meditate as 'exercise the mind in contemplation'. Under this definition, I'm sure anyone here could be said to meditate, but you may say I'm quibbling over semantics and this is not your meaning. We can see on this list that even people who say they meditate in the sense of 'sitting' mean very different things. 'Your' practice is very different from Michael J's practice and so on. Personally, I prefer to consider the pali term of bhavana (or mental development, s'times meditation). I think what some of us are interested in is to understand more about the 2 kinds of bhavana, i.e. samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana and how these (along with other kinds of kusala or skilful states) can be developed in daily life. I try to understand more clearly what the Buddha taught in this regard and understand, especially for vipassana bhavana, that this doesn't exclude time 'sitting' in a quiet place nor does it demand it. The key in vipassana bhavana is understanding the reality appearing now and in samatha the key is understanding how the given concepts or objects of samatha can calm the mind. I should mention that this list group consists of about 5O people or groups with many views on this subject of bhavana or meditation. We (I'm only referring to those who have been around longer) look forward to hearing and discussing these many views further. Thanks again, Jim. for your efforts to get your important post thr' the list hurdles. I'm glad you persisted and I apologise I cannot do justice to the rest of your efforts for now. Best rgds, Sarah 2154 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 6:15pm Subject: Translation Dear friends, I am about halfway through the translation of 'Summary of Paccaya' (although the next two weeks I will probably have no time for it), today I came across this passage on p.35: 'Other than the 5 citta and their composing cetasika, other realities could be aramanadhipati. The first obha-mula-citta- somanassa-sahagatam-ditthigata-sampayuttam-asankharikam is also aramanadhipati. Does anyone like somanassa-sahagatam-ditthigata-sampayuttam-asankharikam? It does not sound appealing but those with wrong view would like, would be pleased in the wrong view. Therefore there appears to be much wrong view, attachment to it, and if the pleased feeling is accompanied by somanassa it would be somanassa-sahagatam-ditthigata-sampayuttam. When one has studied the subject of paccaya in detail, one would see that it is difficult to change others' opinions, since each person is realities that arise and evolve according to accumulations of causes and conditions. When a lot of wrong view is accumulated no matter the right reasoning the person who is satisfied with wrong view would prefer to continue to cling to the wrong view. One should therefore really study the dhamma conscientiously, otherwise there might be wrong view about the dhamma, if there were not the right and thorough examination of the dhamma.' (end quote) I think it is an opportune reminder for all of us, especially me, to do the best we can and leave all the rest to the individual's accumulations. Again, that most difficult of the four among metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, for me this last is still much to be developed. Even the Buddha could not help everyone, in those times. So the best is all anyone has to offer, and be glad that we have done all we could! By the way if anyone would like to see the half-translation as is without waiting for the completed book, please contact me off list, Amara 2155 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:06pm Subject: samma-samadhi (was meditation & study ) --- Dear group, I thought there might be some interest in Jim's reference on the visuddhimagga: Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > . "I understand that, > according to the > Visuddhimagga, XIV.7, concentration is the proximate cause of > understanding. > This became clear to me in 1985 when I had a direct insight > experience that > I knew could not have taken place without the associated > calmness of a > concentrated mind I was also experiencing. So for me I > consider a higher > degree of concentration to be an excellent support for > developing > understanding." To understand this subject the Abhidhamma is helpful. Samadhi is also called ekaggata cetasika and it accompanies all cittas (sabbacitta sabarana). Thus it can be of all four jatis, kusala, akusala, vipika and kitiya. When samattha meditation is correctly developed then ekaggata cetasika becomes powerful and focuses on the object of samattha, such as metta or the breath. This samma-samattha always arises in conjunction with alobha (detachment). When we simply concentrate on an object of samattha it is possible to mistake lobha (attachment) and ekaggata cetasika of the akusala jati (unwholesome) for samma-samadhi. Even when we develop samattha correctly it can become an immediate object for attachment- as the Patthana notes. It can be a very strong object for attachment indeed, because it is a decidely higher existence than our usual daily life where moments of kusala(wholesomeness are intermitant). When it is developed to the stage of jhana the purity of mind and bliss and clarity is profound. For those who can develop mastery jhana can be the basis for vipassana. Even for those who go by insight alone, sukka-vipassaka, dry insight workers, samattha is a supporting condition, as are all kusala including genorosity and respect. Samattha can also be a condition for miccha-ditthi (wrong view) as the Brahmajala sutta shows. Now what sort of samattha is meant by the visuddhimagga(xiv7) when it says the proximate cause of panna(wisdom)? Obviously it is not miccha-samadhi. Bear in mind that miccha-samadhi(wrong concentration) comes in countless variations. If it arises in conjunction with refined lobha(desire) it will feel calm and peaceful. Samma-samadhi is of two main types: that associated with satipatthana vipassana and that associated with samattha. This is a little complicated, as we can perhaps say that the type associated with samattha, if we include those who use samattha as a base for vipassana, can function as both. However for the path of pure vipassana samadhi is not the same as with samattha meditation. Whenever any citta arises there is samadhi. At any moment of satipatthana, correct understanding of a paramattha dhamma, there must be samadhi associated with it it. That type of samadhi is samma-samadhi but it only lasts for that moment or moments that insight is occuring. It has the function of fixing or focusing on the object. If samma-samadhi did not arise then panna would not have a clear object to insight. At the moments of vipassana-nana samadhi becomes very strong and the minddoor process is vividly seen. However, both before and after those moments, samadhi may be at its usual daily life levels. Samma-samadhi is a most necessary ingredient of the eighfactored path but we must know that it can only arise when there is samma-ditthi. That is why samma-ditthi(right understanding) is of such significance in our discussions. I think newcomers to the list feel that many of us think concentration and virtue (samadhi and sila) are something that, if not injurious to the path, are at least dispensable. That is not so, at least for me, nevertheless my main concern is with the dangers of wrong view and its corollary, wrong practice. This is due to my own very confused early years in Buddhism, trying so hard but being blind to the difference between sati and samadhi, and not realising that all my actions were conditioned by a self, even while I was saying and thinking "there is no self". Comparing the later ease of life since learning about Abhidhamma means that I want others to likewise benefit. This does not mean that we should not talk about sila and samattha. I certainly need regular reminders about sila. And samattha too (even if we are not trying to develop jhana) should not be neglected- all kusala can be a support for vipassana. Robert 2156 From: sotujana Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 7:09am Subject: thank you to Amara >Dear Satisotujana >Congratulations! It's most beneficial to discuss the dhamma and we >hope you have numerous participants! I hope also that you will not >be too busy to look in here from time to time, you are not leaving >us, are you? See you soon on the list, >Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, >Amara Thank you very much, Amara! If the Satipatthana listserv is even partially as thought provoking and educational as the DhammaStudyGroup is I will consider it a success! And no, I am not leaving this list, though to be honest I bet most listmembers didn't know I was on it to begin with -- I tend to be rather quiet. This list is one of my favorites, however, and I don't consider a day complete until I have read the digest. with Metta, Satisotujana 2157 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 10:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Robert, Thanks for your comments below and for your later post on samma-samadhi. I guess I'm fortunate in having the opportunity to study and practice the dhamma in a quiet setting all year around without family and job commitments. The Patisambhidhamagga is a very important guiding text for my practice. You will have noticed how the text first begins with a long treatise on sammaa-di.t.thi (~Naa.na-kathaa) followed by a shorter one on micchaa-di.t.thi before coming to the treatise on the mindfulness of breathing. It has turned milder here lately and nearly all the accumulated snow has melted away. But this is only the beginning of winter and once the snow builds up it stays with us until about the end of March. I believe the coldest it got here last winter was around -33C. With best wishes, Jim A. From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:09 PM >Dear jim, >Just a couple of comments. >Anyone who is going to develop samattha needs many supporting >conditions. These include seclusion and long periods of >application- and I think you have all these in abundance. >Secondly it needs a lot of wisdom which depends on careful study >and interpretation of the pali texts - and as you mentioned your >reliance on the Patisambhidhimagga (where they stress so much on >how desire can slip in), you have a good basis there too. >On the quote from the Visudhimagga I might write some more about >concentration and how it is a support for panna tonight (am at >work now). >I guess the countryside is looking a litle white where you are? >Winter is just beginning here in the south of Japan and we >usually have one or two days where it snows in late January. >Robert 2158 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 11:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu) Dear Jim and Robert, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > You > will have noticed how the text first begins with a > long treatise on > sammaa-di.t.thi (~Naa.na-kathaa) followed by a > shorter one on > micchaa-di.t.thi before coming to the treatise on > the mindfulness of > breathing. Just a personal note: From my experience, understanding of miccha-ditthi is of primary importance. Also, the definition of right effort that appears in many places in the Tipitaka, begins with something to the effect of, 'it leads to the going down of unwholesome states already arisen and the non-arising of unwholesome states as yet unarisen; it leads to the arising of wholesome states as yet unarisen and the continuation, development and perfection of wholesome states already arisen' or something closely to that effect. I'm paraphrasing, and might be hard-put to produce citations. Just thought this was pertinent. I may be wrong about this (I usually am!) and welcome corrections! mn 2159 From: Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 0:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear jonothan, This is the gatha, I am sorry that I couldnt trace the references, as the source that I copied the gatha from is no longer with me. I had copied it for my reference, but hadnt written down the references ... I will write it down, I hope that mike will be able to find the references[ :o) ] I invite all the friends to give the exact meaning and interpretation + explanation for us, Here goes, ayam loko santaapajaato, passa pareto rogam wadati attano, yena yena hi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nataa, a~n~natabhaavi bhavasatto , loko bhava pareto bhavamevabhinandati, yadabhinandati tam bhayam, yassa bhaayati tam dukkham, bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vuussati. I got the general Idea of this, But like a more Authentic one. :o) santaapajaato loko -> world born by santaapa passa pareto -> beacause of the passa ( contact ) rogam attano -> the soul-desease bhavasatto bhavamevabhinandati -> the beings of the bhava get delight of the bhava yadabhinandati tam bhayam -> bicos of that byaya arises yassa bhaayati tam dukkham -> and bicos of that bhaya , dukkha arises bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vussati -> to get rid of that bhava , holylife is lived Rgds Jonothan Abbott on 11/28/2000 07:24:38 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Gayan > Actually I dont know how to translate them, thats > why I put these here Could have fooled me. You seem to have such a good grasp of the texts. I thought I was the only one who didn't understand it! > mannana is a key word to understand samma ditthi, > and a correct english translation will really help > many people Yes, I'm beginning to get a sense of its importance. But I am also beginning to doubt that a suitable terms exists in English. Bhikkhu Bodhi says as much in his introduction. Perhaps you and Amara could tell us something about the terms that are used in Singhala and Thai to translate this term? > in an another pali gatha , buddha says > > the beings ( satta) yena yena hi mannati, tato tam > hoti annata > > 'the ignorant beings do mannana with various things, > so the annata ( otherness) > arises.' > > ( thisness and otherness is the cause of samsara > vata ) > > > I will give the references if I can find them > quickly. Thanks. I look forward to that. Jonothan 2160 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 0:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan, --- wrote: > I will write it down, > I hope that mike will be able to find the > references[ :o) ] Yeppers! I will try--can you give me a few references in english? Your Friend, mn 2161 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 9:42pm Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana Dear Mike, I’m sorry I confused you by correcting the one sentence in my very long post to Michael J that you picked up on! >--- Sarah >wrote: > >> Breathing is a concept and not an object of >> satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of >>vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any >> other concept. > >Now that you've said this, it seems quite obvious. >Still, this single sentence is (for myself) the >clearest and most succinct explanation of the >underlying differences we've been discussing to date. > >This is meant as a personal observation only, as it >perfectly highlights the biggest (perhaps) wrong >turning that I took when attempting institutionalized >vipassana bhavana. Whether or not this is true for >anyone else is clearly a matter for individual >investigation. > >This, to me, is the great advantage of this group and >its specific focus on abhidhamma--had I not had the >good luck(?!) to encounter you all, I don't think I'd >have ever made the distinction between paramattha >dhamma and concept. Thanks again! Well, this is the important distinction that needs to be made because most of the time when there is concentrating or focussing on an object there is no understanding of a reality and hence no vipassana development taking place. The small correction that follows doesn't change this. >sarah... wrote: > >> I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say >> that the concept of breath cannot be the object of >> insight or vipassana. Of course there can be >> understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath >> or any other concept, but the object must be a reality >> such as softness/hardness or thinking. > >Well! Having previously applauded the sentence you've corrected >here, I'm doubly curious. Is it true that understanding or insight >may arise while the mind is 'darting among unrealities'? Seems I >need to look at this a little more closely. Yes, except that technically speaking, they are different moments. One moment there may be thinking about breath (a concept), another moment there can be awareness of thinking, hardness or softness, or any other reality which appears. So while darting (or to be precise, in between the darting), there can be moments of understanding. Whilst breathing, standing, walking, sitting, there are realities which can be known. This is in essence what the Satipatthana Sutta is discussing. Breathing, sitting, standing, walking are concepts which cannot be known. But this is our daily life. This is what we do. Whilst following these activities, awareness can be developed naturally of any realities appearing without any special focussing. >I guess that, given that only one citta can arise at a time, with >only one object, the problem is with the expression. Not really >a 'mind darting'...still, this does bring to mind the simile of >trying to get milk by twisting a cow's horn. > >Please excuse my rambling. Maybe I'm just mixed up in semantics. >Any thoughts? No, I think you understood the essence of the original post perfectly (and my subsequent minor alteration didn't change this). Your experiences and (former?) confusion about concept and reality are common to all of us. Seeing the dust in the eyes is not easy. >Thanks in advance...Mike Thanks for urging me to clarify further too. Sarah 2162 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Dear Jonothan, Sorry to be so long in replying. I've fallen behind in my correspondence: --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form > of > akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it > is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting > this as a form of 'practice'. Too true! However, I think the greatest danger is in thinking that 'I'm' adopting the practice. > (Indeed, whole > schools > of meditation practice have built up around this > concept.) This of course would be a mistake, > because > it is wanting to be other that we truly are at that > moment. Certainly a big mistake to take this for the eightfold path! Especially combined with sakkaya-ditthi and somanassa-sahagata. Kinda like treating heroin addiction with morphine... > And of course, getting rid of the dosa of > the > present moment by such means does not address the > fundamental problem - lack of developed > understanding. ...and MIGHT even preclude the possibility of its development. > Actually, most of the ideas we have about 'practice' > are wrong view (miccha ditthi). Definitely--can't be helped. > This should not > surprise us. Just as we have more akusala in > general > in a day that kusala, so too with miccha ditti/samma > ditthi in particular. Once we manage to accept > this, > it means we are more likely to recognise the miccha > ditthi when it arises. This is vital for creating > the > right conditions for more awareness and right > understanding to arise. Yes, learning to recognize akusala in general and miccha-ditthi in particular is essential, I think. > As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously > unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing. Much > more useful than supressing those moments of > akusala! Definitely. And often with the welcome side effect of displacing the akusala anyway--without 'anyone' needing to 'look at' anything--hah! Mike 2163 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 11:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9 Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > > > Do you have any > > current information on scheduling of broadcasts in > > English of Ajahn Sujin's talks on internet radio? > > > Dear Mike, > > We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30 > BKK time since > that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get > it, would make > one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both > in English, > starting this Dec. 1st, 2000. This is excellent news. If this is on schedule, it should be tomorrow night. Can you please remind me of where I can find this on the internet? Thanks in advance! > We are way behind > editing the tapes, > though, so it migh be a while before the English > really air. Sorry > for the delay, it's been a bit hectic lately! > > I would like to also announce the schedule of the > first half of > December in the newsletter section (Newsletter 9) at > > just finished > uploading. Have a look at > the lovely background! Very nice! And thanks again... Mike 2164 From: amara chay Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 0:25am Subject: Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9 > > We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30 > > BKK time since > > that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get > > it, would make > > one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both > > in English, > > starting this Dec. 1st, 2000. > > This is excellent news. If this is on schedule, it > should be tomorrow night. Can you please remind me of > where I can find this on the internet? Thanks in > advance! Dear Sir! The easiest is still to go to the link on the Schedules page in and click on the internet radio TV5 there, at the bottom of the page. I would appreciate any feedback, thanks in advance, Amara 2165 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 1:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan and Mike N. >Dear jonothan, > >This is the gatha, >I am sorry that I couldnt trace the references, as the source that I copied >the gatha from is no longer with me. >I had copied it for my reference, but hadnt written down the references ... The gatha is found in the Lokasutta of the Udaana (Ud 3.10). >I will write it down, >I hope that mike will be able to find the references[ :o) ] > >I invite all the friends to give the exact meaning and interpretation + >explanation for us, > > >Here goes, > > >ayam loko santaapajaato, passa pareto rogam wadati attano, >yena yena hi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nataa, >a~n~natabhaavi bhavasatto , loko bhava pareto bhavamevabhinandati, >yadabhinandati tam bhayam, yassa bhaayati tam dukkham, >bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vuussati. The reading given in the Indian Devanagari ed. is: aya.m loko santaapajaato, phassapareto roga.m vadati attato, [or attano] yena yena hi ma~n~nati, tato ta.m hoti a~n~nathaa. a~n~nathaabhaavii bhavasatto loko, bhavapareto bhavamevaabhinandati, yadabhinandati ta.m bhaya.m, yassa bhaayati ta.m dukkha.m, bhavavippahaanaaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vussati. These gathas are also quoted in the Nettippakarana and Petakopadesa. I have looked at a couple of translations which appear somewhat unclear and confused to me, so I won't offer any here. Masefield and ~Naa.namoli translates 'ma~n~nati' as 'conceives'. The Udana commentary notes: [conceives] due to the conceits of view, conceit, and craving. With best wishes, Jim A. 2166 From: m. nease Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 2:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Sadhu, cooperation! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-10.html --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Gayan and Mike N. > > >Dear jonothan, > > > >This is the gatha, > >I am sorry that I couldnt trace the references, as > the source that I copied > >the gatha from is no longer with me. > >I had copied it for my reference, but hadnt written > down the references ... > > The gatha is found in the Lokasutta of the Udaana > (Ud 3.10). > > >I will write it down, > >I hope that mike will be able to find the > references[ :o) ] > > > >I invite all the friends to give the exact meaning > and interpretation + > >explanation for us, > > > > > >Here goes, > > > > > >ayam loko santaapajaato, passa pareto rogam wadati > attano, > >yena yena hi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nataa, > >a~n~natabhaavi bhavasatto , loko bhava pareto > bhavamevabhinandati, > >yadabhinandati tam bhayam, yassa bhaayati tam > dukkham, > >bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam > vuussati. > > The reading given in the Indian Devanagari ed. is: > > aya.m loko santaapajaato, phassapareto roga.m vadati > attato, [or attano] > yena yena hi ma~n~nati, tato ta.m hoti a~n~nathaa. > > a~n~nathaabhaavii bhavasatto loko, bhavapareto > bhavamevaabhinandati, > yadabhinandati ta.m bhaya.m, yassa bhaayati ta.m > dukkha.m, > bhavavippahaanaaya kho panidam brahmacariyam > vussati. > > These gathas are also quoted in the Nettippakarana > and Petakopadesa. I have > looked at a couple of translations which appear > somewhat unclear and > confused to me, so I won't offer any here. Masefield > and ~Naa.namoli > translates 'ma~n~nati' as 'conceives'. The Udana > commentary notes: > [conceives] due to the conceits of view, conceit, > and craving. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > 2167 From: m. nease Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 4:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9 Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > The easiest is still to go to the link on the > Schedules page in > and click on the > internet radio TV5 > there, at the bottom of the page. > > I would appreciate any feedback, thanks in advance, I will certainly keep you posted--thanks again! mn 2168 From: shinlin Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9 FANTASTIC...... Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:25 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9 > > We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30 > > BKK time since > > that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get > > it, would make > > one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both > > in English, > > starting this Dec. 1st, 2000. > > This is excellent news. If this is on schedule, it > should be tomorrow night. Can you please remind me of > where I can find this on the internet? Thanks in > advance! Dear Sir! The easiest is still to go to the link on the Schedules page in and click on the internet radio TV5 there, at the bottom of the page. I would appreciate any feedback, thanks in advance, Amara 2169 From: Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Jim and Mike Great, Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! Jim I would like to know your understandings about itthabhava and an~n~atabhava rgds 2170 From: Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 8:20pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Robert you said--> "Each moment is conditioned in manifold ways, and those conditions are likewise conditioned. Now we are in the human realm but we don't know when, maybe a few short processes from now, cuti-citta(death consciousness ) will arise and then patisandhi will ocur in a new life, as animal or man or deva or somewhere else." yes indeed..and its controller-less..hmm.. I remember a story in tipitaka where the scene is the (conventional) death of a very virtuous monk...apart from all his virtue the next stage of the continuum was as a little insect in his(previous life) own robe..just because at the death moment his citta had lobha for his brand new glowing robe...but its was just for a very short time ( may be hours or days) as then the next stage of continuum which was in a deva world ,was conditioned by his virtues .. so funny No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to time looking at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny vatta.. rgds 2171 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 8:46pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan, Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who were skilled in Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is conditioned by accumulations and kamma. I love that example of the monk who became an insect and then a deva. Even while he was an insect he had clinging to the robe (and no doubt believed he could control things- he probably thought he was a fortunate bug to have such a nice robe to infest-maybe he looked down on the other insects who lived in poor quality robes!). It is simply lobha and delusion that make us cling to the khandas in whatever existence we are in. Robert --- wrote: > > Dear Robert > > you said--> > > "Each moment is conditioned in manifold ways, and > those conditions are likewise conditioned. Now we are in the > human realm but we don't know when, maybe a few short > processes > from now, cuti-citta(death consciousness ) will arise and then > patisandhi will ocur in a new life, as animal or man or deva > or > somewhere else." > > yes indeed..and its controller-less..hmm.. > > I remember a story in tipitaka where the scene is the > (conventional) death > of a very virtuous monk...apart from all his virtue the next > stage of the > continuum was as a little insect in his(previous life) own > robe..just > because at the death moment his citta had lobha for his brand > new glowing > robe...but its was just for a very short time ( may be hours > or days) as > then the next stage of continuum which was in a deva world > ,was conditioned > by his virtues .. so funny > > No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to > time looking > at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny > vatta.. > > > rgds > > > 2172 From: Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 11:02pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Nice story! Do you recall where the story lives in tipitika? >I remember a story in tipitaka where the scene is the (conventional) death >of a very virtuous monk...apart from all his virtue the next stage of the >continuum was as a little insect in his(previous life) own robe..just >because at the death moment his citta had lobha for his brand new glowing >robe...but its was just for a very short time ( may be hours or days) as >then the next stage of continuum which was in a deva world ,was conditioned >by his virtues .. so funny > >No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to time looking >at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny vatta.. > > >rgds > 2173 From: amara chay Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 11:52pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to time looking > at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny vatta.. Dear Gayan, Just a little remark, the hasitupada citta do not cause laughter, at most a smile. Not like for us, when the smile (or anything more than that,) is mostly lobha! =^_^= Amara 2174 From: amara chay Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 0:26am Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi --- wrote: > Nice story! Do you recall where the story lives in tipitika? Dear dhd5, Hi! and welcome! I'm sure Gayan, Mike or someone will get you the references, and look forward to rereading it with you, Amara 2175 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 1:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan, You ask: > >Jim I would like to know your understandings about > >itthabhava and an~n~atabhava > Actually, I was not familiar with these two words until you mentioned them. To find out more I normally check the dictionaries and commentaries. The CPD translates 'itthabhaava' as: such an existence, or the existence here (in this life). It also cites some commentarial interpretations: = manussatta, or manussabhaava, or attabhaava, or cakkavaa.la. So the interpretation will depend on the context the word is found in. The CPD translates 'itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava' as: existence thus and otherwise, in this and another form. The commentarial interpretation given for AN IV.9 (4.1.9) is: itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaavan ti ettha itthabhaavo naama aya.m attabhaavo, a~n~nathaabhaavo naama anaagatattabhaavo; evaruupo vaa a~n~no pi attabhaavo itthabhaavo naama, na evaruupo a~n~nathaabhaavo naama; ta.m itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m. (AA iii 13) 'itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava' -- here, this self-existence is called 'itthabhaava', the future self-existence is called 'a~n~nathaabhaava'; or another such-like self-existence is called 'itthabhaava', not (another) such-like (self-existence) is called 'a~n~nathaabhaava'; 'ta.m itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m'. This is just my rough translation. Best wishes, Jim A. 2176 From: Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 5:41am Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Gayan, > Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same > elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those > of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who > were skilled in Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed > special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think > we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is > conditioned by accumulations and kamma. Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma vs the Suttas. I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes" as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything one needs is already in the Suttas? Thank you and kindest regards, Veronica Ma. 2177 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 9:19am Subject: WHY Abhidhamma? Dear dhd5, Welcome to the discussion. I think the story came from the dhammapada commentary but Gayan can probably tell you for sure. Dear veronica, Welcome also. The Theravada tradition holds the Abhidhamma as the crowning point, the zenith of the Buddha's doctrine. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to the Abhidhammatthasangaha "In Sri Lanka King Kassapa V had the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed on gold plates and the first book set in gems, while another king, Vijayabahu (eleventh century) used to study the Dhammasangani each morning before taking up his royal duties and composed a translation of it into Sinhala." While there is much Abhidhamma to be found in the suttas, especially in the samyutta nikaya, the comprehensive detail in the Abhidhamma is most useful for even those whose tastes lie mainly with the suttas. To understand the way things really are we have to analyse our "world" into its constituent parts and learn what is concept and what is truly real. This is the function of the Abhidhamma. Bodhi writes "The great Buddhist commentator, Acariya Buddhaghosa, explains the word "Abhidhamma" as meaning "that which exceeds and is distinguished from the Dhamma" (dhammatireka-dhammavisesa), the prefix abhi having the sense of preponderance and distinction, and dhamma here signifying the teaching of the Sutta Pitaka. When the Abhidhamma is said to surpass the teaching of the Suttas, this is not intended to suggest that the Suttanta teaching is defective in any degree or that the Abhidhamma proclaims some new revelation of esoteric doctrine unknown to the Suttas. Both the Suttas and the Abhidhamma are grounded upon the Buddha's unique doctrine of the Four Noble Truths, and all the principles essential to the attainment of enlightenment are already expounded in the Sutta Pitaka. The difference between the two in no way concerns fundamentals but is, rather, partly a matter of scope and partly a matter of method. As to scope, the Abhidhamma offers a thoroughness and completeness of treatment that cannot be found in the Sutta Pitaka. Acariya Buddhaghosa explains that in the Suttas such doctrinal categories as the five aggregates, the twelve sense bases, the eighteen elements, and so forth, are classified only partly, while in the Abhidhamma Pitaka they are classified fully according to different schemes of classification, some common to the Suttas, others unique to the Abhidhamma. Thus the Abhidhamma has a scope and an intricacy of detail that set it apart from the Sutta Pitaka. " I have heard it said that the Abhidhamma is a later addition to the Tipitika. This is considered a most ill-founded heresy according to the Theravada tradition. The Atthasalini explains that in the fourth week after the Enlightenment, while the Blessed One was still dwelling near Bodhi Tree, he sat in a jewel house, Ratanaghara, in the northwest direction. (I saw this place in Boddhagaya in January and it has a marble tablet commemorating the site) and contemplated the seven books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. While investigating the first six books his body did not emit rays. However, upon coming to the Patthana, when "he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal conditional relations of root, object, and so on, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the great fish Timiratipingala finds room only in the great ocean 84,000 yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room only in the Great Book. Rays of six colours -- indigo, golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling -- issued from the Teacher's body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by his omniscience which had found such opportunity." The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his students. This is very brief. Please ask more if you would like further confirmation of the value of Abhidhamma. Robert 2178 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Veronica, See my response below. >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: >> Dear Gayan, >> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same >> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those >> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who >> were skilled in Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed >> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think >> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is >> conditioned by accumulations and kamma. > >Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of >a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma >vs the Suttas. > >I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes" >as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything >one needs is already in the Suttas? > >Thank you and kindest regards, >Veronica Ma. > I think your question touches on the subject of the conventional teaching (sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching (paramattha-desanaa) which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. Jayatilleke translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge_ p. 364 as follows: "the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those who are capable of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the meaning, discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who are capable of listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, discarding ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute truth." -- AA i 94 Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: penetrating the meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both 'visesa']. Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the truth is possible by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using the language a person readily understands and there is no implication that one language is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the view of modern orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly regarding Ledi Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an erroneous view'. I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is dominated by the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is dominated by the absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either pitaka. It is obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the two. I have noted that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage or even warn against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, I think one could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever venturing into the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from both. With best wishes, Jim A. 2179 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 10:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Jim, Thanks for the additional info. and your mature (as always) outlook here. A while ago you posted a brief summary that noted the Abhidhamma especially distinguished nama and rupa - which is of course what vipassana does. I forgot the exact wording but it compared the vinaya, suttanta and Abhidhamma. It might be worth reposting this. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Veronica, > > See my response below. > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > >> Dear Gayan, > >> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same > >> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - > those > >> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time > those who > >> were skilled in Abhidhamma kept company, those who > developed > >> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We > think > >> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is > >> conditioned by accumulations and kamma. > > > >Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am > reminded of > >a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the > Abhidhamma > >vs the Suttas. > > > >I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar > tastes" > >as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if > everything > >one needs is already in the Suttas? > > > >Thank you and kindest regards, > >Veronica Ma. > > > I think your question touches on the subject of the > conventional teaching > (sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching > (paramattha-desanaa) > which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. > Jayatilleke > translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of > Knowledge_ p. 364 > as follows: > > "the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those > who are capable > of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the > meaning, > discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who > are capable of > listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, > discarding > ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute > truth." > -- AA i 94 > > Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: > penetrating the > meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both > 'visesa']. > > Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the > truth is possible > by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using > the language > a person readily understands and there is no implication that > one language > is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the > view of modern > orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly > regarding Ledi > Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an > erroneous view'. > > I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is > dominated by > the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is > dominated by the > absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either > pitaka. It is > obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the > two. I have noted > that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage > or even warn > against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There > is also much > doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, > but the Pali > commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, > I think one > could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever > venturing into > the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from > both. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > 2180 From: Michael Olds Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 0:08pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Jim, This is also a subject which has perplexed me, as you already know, which is why I am here, to see what the fuss is about. One sentence of your last here stands out as something I would like to get your understanding on. You say: There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Can you give us a few quotes of materials which have been suggestive to you that the conclusion that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha is justifiable? As an outsider what I have heard is that the Abhidhamma was taught by Sariputta after the Miracle of the Twins to the dwellers in the Tussita Realm. Is the real story different? Best Wishes! Michael Olds California www.BuddhaDust.org ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Anderson Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Veronica, See my response below. >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: >> Dear Gayan, >> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same >> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those >> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who >> were skilled in Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed >> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think >> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is >> conditioned by accumulations and kamma. > >Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of >a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma >vs the Suttas. > >I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes" >as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything >one needs is already in the Suttas? > >Thank you and kindest regards, >Veronica Ma. > I think your question touches on the subject of the conventional teaching (sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching (paramattha-desanaa) which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. Jayatilleke translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge_ p. 364 as follows: "the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those who are capable of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the meaning, discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who are capable of listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, discarding ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute truth." -- AA i 94 Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: penetrating the meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both 'visesa']. Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the truth is possible by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using the language a person readily understands and there is no implication that one language is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the view of modern orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly regarding Ledi Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an erroneous view'. I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is dominated by the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is dominated by the absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either pitaka. It is obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the two. I have noted that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage or even warn against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, I think one could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever venturing into the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from both. With best wishes, Jim A. 2181 From: Michael Olds Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 0:13pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] WHY Abhidhamma? Robert, thank you for this summary, as you will no doubt notice I had just moments before asked Jim to give us such a summary. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California www.BuddhaDust.org ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:19 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] WHY Abhidhamma? Dear dhd5, Welcome to the discussion. I think the story came from the dhammapada commentary but Gayan can probably tell you for sure. Dear veronica, Welcome also. The Theravada tradition holds the Abhidhamma as the crowning point, the zenith of the Buddha's doctrine. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to the Abhidhammatthasangaha "In Sri Lanka King Kassapa V had the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed on gold plates and the first book set in gems, while another king, Vijayabahu (eleventh century) used to study the Dhammasangani each morning before taking up his royal duties and composed a translation of it into Sinhala." While there is much Abhidhamma to be found in the suttas, especially in the samyutta nikaya, the comprehensive detail in the Abhidhamma is most useful for even those whose tastes lie mainly with the suttas. To understand the way things really are we have to analyse our "world" into its constituent parts and learn what is concept and what is truly real. This is the function of the Abhidhamma. Bodhi writes "The great Buddhist commentator, Acariya Buddhaghosa, explains the word "Abhidhamma" as meaning "that which exceeds and is distinguished from the Dhamma" (dhammatireka-dhammavisesa), the prefix abhi having the sense of preponderance and distinction, and dhamma here signifying the teaching of the Sutta Pitaka. When the Abhidhamma is said to surpass the teaching of the Suttas, this is not intended to suggest that the Suttanta teaching is defective in any degree or that the Abhidhamma proclaims some new revelation of esoteric doctrine unknown to the Suttas. Both the Suttas and the Abhidhamma are grounded upon the Buddha's unique doctrine of the Four Noble Truths, and all the principles essential to the attainment of enlightenment are already expounded in the Sutta Pitaka. The difference between the two in no way concerns fundamentals but is, rather, partly a matter of scope and partly a matter of method. As to scope, the Abhidhamma offers a thoroughness and completeness of treatment that cannot be found in the Sutta Pitaka. Acariya Buddhaghosa explains that in the Suttas such doctrinal categories as the five aggregates, the twelve sense bases, the eighteen elements, and so forth, are classified only partly, while in the Abhidhamma Pitaka they are classified fully according to different schemes of classification, some common to the Suttas, others unique to the Abhidhamma. Thus the Abhidhamma has a scope and an intricacy of detail that set it apart from the Sutta Pitaka. " I have heard it said that the Abhidhamma is a later addition to the Tipitika. This is considered a most ill-founded heresy according to the Theravada tradition. The Atthasalini explains that in the fourth week after the Enlightenment, while the Blessed One was still dwelling near Bodhi Tree, he sat in a jewel house, Ratanaghara, in the northwest direction. (I saw this place in Boddhagaya in January and it has a marble tablet commemorating the site) and contemplated the seven books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. While investigating the first six books his body did not emit rays. However, upon coming to the Patthana, when "he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal conditional relations of root, object, and so on, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the great fish Timiratipingala finds room only in the great ocean 84,000 yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room only in the Great Book. Rays of six colours -- indigo, golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling -- issued from the Teacher's body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by his omniscience which had found such opportunity." The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his students. This is very brief. Please ask more if you would like further confirmation of the value of Abhidhamma. Robert 2182 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 1:16pm Subject: members websites Dear group, I thought you might be interested in the following links. These are Buddhism Websites of members of this discussion group. If any are missing please let me know: http://www.dhammastudy.com/ run by Amara http://www.zolag.co.uk/ website of Zolag a Buddhist publisher , and owned by Alan Weller, an occasional poster here. http://www.buddhadust.org/ owner Michael Olds http://satipatthana.org/ owner Satisotujana http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ owner Mike Potter All these sites have a wealth of information on Theravada Buddhism. Robert 2183 From: Joe Cummings Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Me, too. Very edifying, if not scrumptious. My accumulations are such that I often have trouble accepting what English speakers say certain Pali terms mean until an etymology is available. There are so many inaccurate and misleading translations and usages hanging around 'farang dhammaland' that, for me, it feeds doubt. Sometimes the scene reminds me of business management seminars where a large quotient of jargon is employed to disguise the fact that no one quite knows what they're talking about! More, please! Joe --- "amara chay" wrote: > > > Hello. I may be able to contribute something to the discussion of > Ma~n~nati. > > Please allow me, as a first posting, to jump right in. > > > Dear Mo, > > Wow!! and welcome to a spectacular debutant! Looking forward to more > of your scrumptious posts, > > Amara 2184 From: Joe Cummings Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 7:36pm Subject: buddhadasa's view, as interpreted by santikaro bhikkhu Would anyone care to comment on the following exchange which appeared on the Buddhadasa egroup forum? Joe Cummings wrote: > Thanks very much for the excerpt from 'Mindfulness'. I found it very > elucidating in terms of the question I was asking earlier about > 'calming the formations' vis a vis Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's thought. If > your translation is reasonably accurate, then the Ven. Ajahn seems to > be confirming the line I was suggesting previously, that sati must > arise before the formations arise in order for them to 'calm' or stop > (i.e., not arise). ### Santikaro: This is true in one meaning of the word SANKHARA, that is, the meaning equivalent to the 4th khandha, more or less thinking & emotions. However, SANKHARA has other applications, one of them very subtle. If one overlooks the different ways that some key Pali terms are used, the result will be a rigid system that loses the Buddha's skillful insight & flexibility. > Hence once formations have arisen, sati observes and if pañña is > present, causality may be altered, but sati cannot affect a formation > already conditioned by previous kamma or action. This accords with the > tipitaka of course, ... ### Santikaro: It does? The effects of "past kamma" is only sometimes linear & mechanistic. The 3-fold distinction on how soon kamma bears fruit allows for a lot of non-linear causality. This is reinforced by the understanding, primarily in Abhidhamma, that there are 24 kinds of paccaya (conditions). In short, the tradition often speaks of how the effects of "old kamma" can be influenced by "new kamma." If "sati cannot affect a formation already conditioned by previous kamma or action," where & how is that SANKHARA stored or somehow maintained in such an isolated condition? (Your assertion, btw, does not fit w/ the best of recent neuro-biology.) > and strengthens confidence in practice. So it appears obvious that > Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did not and would not endorse a view that the > formations could be 'calmed', .... ### Santikaro: I am curious what you base such assumptions on. He did, in fact, say that SANKHARA can be calmed. This is a well-known & widely accepted idea in Theravada Buddhism, even among those who are much more "orthodox" than us. It appears that your logic is leading you to various assumptions & that you expect Ajarn Buddhadasa to agree with you. I suggest you review some of your assumptions & your understanding of key terms, like SANKHARA. > but rather that, as your translation reads: > > "Each day, we have many contacts with our six senses, [and] no matter > what the number is, we must have mindfulness which will bring wisdom > in time. The defilement ( kilesa) and suffering (dukkha) will not > arise." > > Notice that he doesn't say that kilesa or dukkha, once arisen, can be > altered by mindfulness or wisdom. It would seem that this Buddhadasa > Bhikkhu treatise .... ### Santikaro: More like a single booklet transcribed from a talk. > confirms that even constant sati cannot stop the results of previous > kamma, which will unfold according to the law of dependent origination > as described by the Buddha himself. ### Santikaro: You're putting words in his mouth. You have been stressing a point that you have every right to believe in, if you wish, & that seems in accordance w/ orthodox Burmese teaching (Abhidhammist flavored). However, you are wrong in this assumption of what Tan Ajarn taught. Are you familiar w/ the Buddha's teaching of Dependent Co-origination? OR are you following the commentarial explanations of it (3 lifetimes)? The latter is a rather forced interpretation of what the Buddha is recorded to have said. The Suttas are open to other readings & Ajarn Buddhadasa strenuously disagrees w/ Buddhaghosa's commentarial line (now the Theravada orthodoxy) on some key points, e.g., the meaning of SANKHARA. I regret that I am slow to publish good translations of Tan Ajarn's understanding of these matters. SPMD is helping with some short passages and I have some major stuff in the works, for those who want to know Tan Ajarn's perspective. Please don't try to cram him into the orthodox view. ------------- I think it's pretty clear that I'm on shaky ground myself (as usual), but what do you think of Santikaro's intimation that the 'Abhidhammist' school is linear and mechanistic? Obviously you wouldn't agree, but what's the counter? 2185 From: Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 8:47pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Jim and Robert, Thank you both for answering my question. I very much appreciate and respect your straightforwardness and honesty. I have many questions. Too many, I think sometimes. :) But all my questions are with the intention to help me understand and remove doubt while there is still time, while I am lucky enough to be in this life with a mind to do so. So I thank you both for helping me do this. Kindest regards, Veronica. --- "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Veronica, > > See my response below. > > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > >> Dear Gayan, > >> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same > >> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those > >> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who > >> were skilled in Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed > >> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think > >> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is > >> conditioned by accumulations and kamma. > > > >Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of > >a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma > >vs the Suttas. > > > >I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes" > >as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything > >one needs is already in the Suttas? > > > >Thank you and kindest regards, > >Veronica Ma. > > > I think your question touches on the subject of the conventional teaching > (sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching (paramattha-desanaa) > which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. Jayatilleke > translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge_ p. 364 > as follows: > > "the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those who are capable > of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the meaning, > discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who are capable of > listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, discarding > ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute truth." > -- AA i 94 > > Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: penetrating the > meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both 'visesa']. > > Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the truth is possible > by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using the language > a person readily understands and there is no implication that one language > is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the view of modern > orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly regarding Ledi > Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an erroneous view'. > > I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is dominated by > the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is dominated by the > absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either pitaka. It is > obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the two. I have noted > that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage or even warn > against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There is also much > doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but the Pali > commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, I think one > could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever venturing into > the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from both. > > With best wishes, > Jim A. 2186 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 9:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] buddhadasa's view, as interpreted by santikaro bhikkhu -Dear Joe, It looks like an important discussion but I found your conversation with Santikaro a little hard to follow. If you could put your ideas direct to us then we can comment directly on them otherwise we are likely to be agreeing and disagreeing with both of you at different times. For instance it seems Santikaro was initially agreeing with the abhidhamma: “This is > reinforced by > the understanding, primarily in Abhidhamma, that there are 24 > kinds of Ø paccaya (conditions).” >>> So it didn’t seem that he was implying that the Abhidhamma is linear or mechanistic. Also Santikaro was right in noting the different meanings of sankhara. Ø In the meantime, I think it is fair to give some comments on my position (which in no way reflects on any other members of this group) with regard to Venerable Buddhadasa’s teachings. I have read a fair number of his books, although I haven’t looked over them for many years . I find him to be a brilliant writer whose interpretation of the Dhamma is in many aspects sound. However, he also steps outside of the Theravada tradition in several areas. As Santikaro writes (admiringly)“ Ajarn Buddhadasa strenuously disagrees w/ Buddhaghosa's commentarial line (now the Theravada orthodoxy)” While some see this as a sign of his exceptional understanding of Dhamma, I prefer to rely on the ancient Theravada tradition and am doubtful that teachers of this later part of the Buddhasasana (This Buddhist era) have more insight than the ancient ones. Buddhadasa is often critical of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries but on what basis? In the end it is his own opinion that he is following. The Visuddhimagga III64 writes that a teacher ‘who knows the texts, guards the heritage, and protects the tradition, will follow the teachers’(the elders) opinion rather than his own.” Buddhaghosa did not make up his own ideas - for the most part he was a compiler who referred to the ancient commentaries some of which were in existence even at the first council. Here I am simply "laying my cards on the table" and am not trying to stop discussion. In fact it could be that Buddhadasa was deliberately being controversial in the hopes of provoking debate and discussion: if so we do him justice by bringing up any delicate points. So, thank you Joe and let us go into this more. Robert --- Joe Cummings wrote: > Would anyone care to comment on the following exchange which > appeared > on the Buddhadasa egroup forum? > > Joe Cummings wrote: > > > Thanks very much for the excerpt from 'Mindfulness'. I found > it very > > elucidating in terms of the question I was asking earlier > about > > 'calming the formations' vis a vis Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's > thought. If > > your translation is reasonably accurate, then the Ven. Ajahn > seems > to > > be confirming the line I was suggesting previously, that > sati must > > arise before the formations arise in order for them to > 'calm' or > stop > > (i.e., not arise). > > ### Santikaro: This is true in one meaning of the word > SANKHARA, that > is, the meaning equivalent to the 4th khandha, more or less > thinking > & emotions. > > However, SANKHARA has other applications, one of them very > subtle. > If one overlooks the different ways that some key Pali terms > are used, > the result will be a rigid system that loses the Buddha's > skillful > insight & flexibility. > > > Hence once formations have arisen, sati observes and if > pañña is > > present, causality may be altered, but sati cannot affect a > formation > > already conditioned by previous kamma or action. This > accords with > the > > tipitaka of course, ... > > ### Santikaro: It does? The effects of "past kamma" is only > sometimes > linear & mechanistic. The 3-fold distinction on how soon kamma > bears > fruit allows for a lot of non-linear causality. This is > reinforced by > the understanding, primarily in Abhidhamma, that there are 24 > kinds of > paccaya (conditions). > > In short, the tradition often speaks of how the effects of > "old > kamma" can be influenced by "new kamma." > > If "sati cannot affect a formation already conditioned by > previous > kamma or action," where & how is that SANKHARA stored or > somehow > maintained in such an isolated condition? (Your assertion, > btw, does > not fit w/ the best of recent neuro-biology.) > > > and strengthens confidence in practice. So it appears > obvious that > > Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did not and would not endorse a view that > the > > formations could be 'calmed', .... > > ### Santikaro: I am curious what you base such assumptions on. > He > did, in fact, say that SANKHARA can be calmed. This is a > well-known & > widely accepted idea in Theravada Buddhism, even among those > who are > much more "orthodox" than us. > > It appears that your logic is leading you to various > assumptions & > that you expect Ajarn Buddhadasa to agree with you. I suggest > you > review some of your assumptions & your understanding of key > terms, > like SANKHARA. > > > but rather that, as your translation reads: > > > > "Each day, we have many contacts with our six senses, [and] > no > matter > > what the number is, we must have mindfulness which will > bring wisdom > > in time. The defilement ( kilesa) and suffering (dukkha) > will not > > arise." > > > > Notice that he doesn't say that kilesa or dukkha, once > arisen, can > be > > altered by mindfulness or wisdom. It would seem that this > Buddhadasa > > Bhikkhu treatise .... > > ### Santikaro: More like a single booklet transcribed from a > talk. > > > confirms that even constant sati cannot stop the results of > previous > > kamma, which will unfold according to the law of dependent > origination > > as described by the Buddha himself. > > ### Santikaro: You're putting words in his mouth. You have > been > stressing a point > that you have every right to believe in, if you wish, & that > seems in > accordance w/ orthodox Burmese teaching (Abhidhammist > flavored). > However, you are wrong in this assumption of what Tan Ajarn > taught. > > Are you familiar w/ the Buddha's teaching of Dependent > Co-origination? OR are you following the commentarial > explanations of > it (3 lifetimes)? The latter is a rather forced interpretation > of > what the Buddha is recorded to have said. The Suttas are open > to > other readings & Ajarn Buddhadasa strenuously disagrees w/ > Buddhaghosa's commentarial line (now the Theravada orthodoxy) > on some > key points, e.g., the meaning of SANKHARA. > > I regret that I am slow to publish good translations of > Tan > Ajarn's understanding of these matters. SPMD is helping with > some > short passages and I have some major stuff in the works, for > those > who want to know Tan Ajarn's perspective. Please don't try to > cram > him into the orthodox view. > > ------------- > > I think it's pretty clear that I'm on shaky ground myself (as > usual), > but what do you think of Santikaro's intimation that > the 'Abhidhammist' school is linear and mechanistic? Obviously > you > wouldn't agree, but what's the counter? > > 2187 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi --- wrote: > all my > questions are with the intention to help me understand and > remove > doubt while there is still time, while I am lucky enough to be > in > this life with a mind to do so. > Dear veronica, These are noble sentiments that we would all be fortunate to have. I'm looking forward to more input from you. Robert 2188 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 6:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Hi Michael O., >Jim, > >This is also a subject which has perplexed me, as you already know, which >is why I am here, to see what the fuss is about. One sentence of your last >here stands out as something I would like to get your understanding on. > >You say: There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught >the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did. > >Can you give us a few quotes of materials which have been suggestive to you >that the conclusion that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha is >justifiable? As an outsider what I have heard is that the Abhidhamma was >taught by Sariputta after the Miracle of the Twins to the dwellers in the >Tussita Realm. Is the real story different? > >Best Wishes! >Michael Olds California As you have noted later, Robert gave some details as follows: "The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his students." This agrees with the more detailed account (p.16) given in the Nidaana-kathaa of the Atthasaalinii, the commentary on the Dhammasangani. The title of the translation of the commentary is _The Expositor_ (PTS). Here's an excerpt: "Sariputta, generalissimo of the Law, went there [a sandalwood forest near Anotatta Lake], served the Supreme Buddha, and sat aside. Then to him, the Teacher gave the method saying, 'Sariputta, so much doctrine has been shown.' Thus the giving of the method was to the chief disciple, who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. . . . . Now Sariputta having learnt the Law taught (by the Teacher) preached it to five hundred bhikkhus, his own pupils." -- p. 20-1 Also, in the introductory verses there is written: ". . .That which the Spirit of spirits [devaatidevo] Unto the spirits taught, he afterwards, The Leader, told it all in form concise To Sariputta Elder, when he waited On the Sage at Anotatta lake. And what The Elder heard, he brought to plains of earth And taught it to the brethren. And they all Remembered it. And when the Council met, By the wise son [Ananda] of the Videhi Dame It was again rehearsed." -- p.2 So there you have it! Welcome to the list! I'm fairly new around here myself, having come on board about a month ago. I was surprised to find you showing up here not too long afterwards. Best wishes, Jim A. 2189 From: Michael Olds Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 7:21am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Thanks Jim, I would appreciate anything more you turn up as time goes on that reinforces your conviction that the Abhidhamma is the work of the Buddha. One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are presented in what I would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand. When we hear Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard this as it was spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later time. What I hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this was the Buddha's word from Sariputta." In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no incongruity with the suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to show itself to have been put into the public view under false pretences, it would not reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who perpetrated the hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of every proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such, would constitute a monumental waste of time. So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone else who cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone place the citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a citana? What is the origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of a citana? What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the citana of the Past or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does citana belong to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of citana? Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of Citanas constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, and in-so-far-as they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to the degree one was attached to them? Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we should be training ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am citanas"; not to think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" or "citanas are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true that as seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release from citanas? I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of my inquiry into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning citanas, for sure, but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who study the Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind contrary to Dhamma. I have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is just a bias. My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am sincere. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California www.BuddhaDust.org ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Anderson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Hi Michael O., >Jim, > >This is also a subject which has perplexed me, as you already know, which >is why I am here, to see what the fuss is about. One sentence of your last >here stands out as something I would like to get your understanding on. > >You say: There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught >the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did. > >Can you give us a few quotes of materials which have been suggestive to you >that the conclusion that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha is >justifiable? As an outsider what I have heard is that the Abhidhamma was >taught by Sariputta after the Miracle of the Twins to the dwellers in the >Tussita Realm. Is the real story different? > >Best Wishes! >Michael Olds California As you have noted later, Robert gave some details as follows: "The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his students." This agrees with the more detailed account (p.16) given in the Nidaana-kathaa of the Atthasaalinii, the commentary on the Dhammasangani. The title of the translation of the commentary is _The Expositor_ (PTS). Here's an excerpt: "Sariputta, generalissimo of the Law, went there [a sandalwood forest near Anotatta Lake], served the Supreme Buddha, and sat aside. Then to him, the Teacher gave the method saying, 'Sariputta, so much doctrine has been shown.' Thus the giving of the method was to the chief disciple, who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. . . . . Now Sariputta having learnt the Law taught (by the Teacher) preached it to five hundred bhikkhus, his own pupils." -- p. 20-1 Also, in the introductory verses there is written: ". . .That which the Spirit of spirits [devaatidevo] Unto the spirits taught, he afterwards, The Leader, told it all in form concise To Sariputta Elder, when he waited On the Sage at Anotatta lake. And what The Elder heard, he brought to plains of earth And taught it to the brethren. And they all Remembered it. And when the Council met, By the wise son [Ananda] of the Videhi Dame It was again rehearsed." -- p.2 So there you have it! Welcome to the list! I'm fairly new around here myself, having come on board about a month ago. I was surprised to find you showing up here not too long afterwards. Best wishes, Jim A. 2190 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 8:48am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Michael, Where was the converstion about citana? I don't know this word; is it the same as citta? --- Michael Olds wrote: > Thanks Jim, > > > So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone > else who > cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone > place the > citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a > citana? What is the > origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of > a citana? Robert 2191 From: Michael Olds Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 9:06am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Robert, Yes, apologies, two ts. Spelling these words is always a problem for me as I began with the strong belief that in a spoken tradition spelling was not important. I can't see how to pronounce cita without two ts. I went back into the previous posts and see one at the beginning of this discussion 2034. One or two in particular went into greater detail but at a level that seemed to assume knowledge of the meaning of the word . . . that is, in Abhidhamma terms. But for some reason I have forgotten how to move around through the posts and I get stuck in one and can't go ahead or back and must start over. I seem to remember an arrow that would move to the next post which is now missing when I view the list online. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California www.BuddhaDust.org ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 4:49 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Michael, Where was the converstion about citana? I don't know this word; is it the same as citta? --- Michael Olds wrote: > Thanks Jim, > > > So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone > else who > cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone > place the > citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a > citana? What is the > origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of > a citana? Robert 2192 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 11:19am Subject: Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Michael, I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right Jim? Definitions are fundamental; so thanks for your comments which will be of interest to many. Citta is a synonym for viññána, the aggregate (khanda) of consciousness. The visuddhimagga XIV82 "The words viññána, citta and mano are one in meaning". and "Whatever has the characteristic of cognising should be understood, all taken together as the consciousness aggregate" For a fairly detailed introduction to citta that many of this list are familiar with these links takes you to a study by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (translated by Amara): http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1-8.html and http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch9-16.html If you read over those and make comments it will be easy for everyone to reference and follow the discussion. In the meantime you wrote: "Is a citana the self? Does > citana belong > to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an > aspect of citana?" The answer to all these is NO. No self in citta at all. No self anywhere in any of the khandas. > > Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of > Citanas > constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, > and in-so-far-as > they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to > the degree > one was attached to them? Yes I would indeed say that. > > Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we > should be training > ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am > citanas"; not to > think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" > or "citanas > are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true > that as > seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release > from citanas? There is right thinking (thinking rooted in kusala - wholesomeness) and wrong thinking (thinking rooted in akusala). In my early days (the bad old days) in Buddhism I soon saw that anatta (not self) was pretty important. So I would tell myself that there was no self. The thing is though that I didn't really know what was not self- it was always, either in a gross or subtle way ME who was thinking "there is no self". You wrote <<"Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we > should be training > ourselves not to think about "citanas"">> We need to consider what we have learned about Dhamma so it is necessary sometimes to think about Citta. If is is done wisely it supports direct understanding. However, before we can really understand anything as anatta (not-self) we have to study deeply and directly the different dhammas (realities) as they arise in the present moment. Otherwise we will always stay at an intellectual level where we may correctly think that citta and other khandas are not-self, not mine, etc. but this level is not sufficient to properly penetrate dhammas and eradicate the latent tendency (anusaya) of ditthi (view). Citta is arising every moment but it is hard to properly understand its true nature. Robert > --- Michael Olds wrote: > Thanks Jim, > > I would appreciate anything more you turn up as time goes on > that reinforces > your conviction that the Abhidhamma is the work of the Buddha. > > One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are > presented in what I > would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand. > When we hear > Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard > this as it was > spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later > time. What I > hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this > was the > Buddha's word from Sariputta." > > In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no > incongruity with the > suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to > show itself to > have been put into the public view under false pretences, it > would not > reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who > perpetrated the > hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of > every > proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such, > would > constitute a monumental waste of time. > > So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone > else who > cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone > place the > citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a > citana? What is the > origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of > a citana? > What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the > citana of the Past > or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does > citana belong > to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an > aspect of citana? > > Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of > Citanas > constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, > and in-so-far-as > they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to > the degree > one was attached to them? > > Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we > should be training > ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am > citanas"; not to > think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" > or "citanas > are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true > that as > seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release > from citanas? > > I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of > my inquiry > into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning > citanas, for sure, > but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who > study the > Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind > contrary to Dhamma. I > have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is > just a bias. > My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am > sincere. > > > Best Wishes! > Michael Olds California > > www.BuddhaDust.org > ICQ#94992160 > 2193 From: Michael Olds Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 0:06pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Robert, I want to thank you immediately because obviously your reply is going to require some homework and thought before I can respond. So, thank you, this effort is much appreciated. . .big smile here, I know you knew this was coming . . .but just let me tell you where my doubting mind has immediately focused: On this business of needing to "think about" in order to see not-self, and this breaking this thinking up into right thinking (I would say "high" thinking sidebar: sammaa does mean right, in the sense carpenters used it of at a right angle, or straight up, or straight; but the word has lost most of that to our ears, and what we hear is "the only way" all other ways are wrong, and this is contrary to the meaning, which is best translated, but awkwardly as "consummate", or the highest, best. So my high.) and "wrong thinking" (which translation is the result of wrong thinking about sammaa, and which is not a good translation for micchaa which is simply anything contrary to or in opposition to anything else). And, since we did go over this ma~n~nati thing and have been made to understand that as we should be training ourselves "Not to Think About", I see some place here where some bridge building is going to be needed. My actual, real-life experience tells me that what you describe is not the way it works. I have experienced both directions in depth. The first is the contrary way, this way of "thinking about". My experience is with modern psychiatry where clearly focusing on one's problems is something that the mind delights in; delighting in it, it goes out to recreate those problems; problems get worse in this case and there is no amount of analysis or insight into those problems which eliminates those problems, Freud and the American Psychiatric Association notwithstanding. What it takes to eliminate problems is behavior that does not cause problems. That's the first view, which leads to the second view: The second view is sit down meditation and the particular saying of the Buddha which is called "Resolve" which I have used as a guide to my meditation practice since I first came across it: "May I sit down here in this cross legged position and not rise up again, though flesh wither away, until I have achieved what a man can achieve." (Here it is: http://www.buddhadust.org/ThePaliLine/The10thQuestion_2.htm#Resolve ) My actual practice experience tells me that sit down meditation, if done by abandoning any willful act of mind (and here you do not need to get subtle to get way up there, you just need to notice if a "train of thought" has arisen, and if it has you let it go), speech or body whatsoever is like putting up a sail in a high wind. It will take you right up. From UP you can see all you want. It's not a matter of thinking. This is just my immediate impression. I will now go study my homework! Again thanks! Best Wishes! Michael Olds California www.BuddhaDust.org ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Michael, I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right Jim? Definitions are fundamental; so thanks for your comments which will be of interest to many. Citta is a synonym for viññána, the aggregate (khanda) of consciousness. The visuddhimagga XIV82 "The words viññána, citta and mano are one in meaning". and "Whatever has the characteristic of cognising should be understood, all taken together as the consciousness aggregate" For a fairly detailed introduction to citta that many of this list are familiar with these links takes you to a study by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (translated by Amara): http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1-8.html and http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch9-16.html If you read over those and make comments it will be easy for everyone to reference and follow the discussion. In the meantime you wrote: "Is a citana the self? Does > citana belong > to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an > aspect of citana?" The answer to all these is NO. No self in citta at all. No self anywhere in any of the khandas. > > Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of > Citanas > constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, > and in-so-far-as > they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to > the degree > one was attached to them? Yes I would indeed say that. > > Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we > should be training > ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am > citanas"; not to > think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" > or "citanas > are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true > that as > seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release > from citanas? There is right thinking (thinking rooted in kusala - wholesomeness) and wrong thinking (thinking rooted in akusala). In my early days (the bad old days) in Buddhism I soon saw that anatta (not self) was pretty important. So I would tell myself that there was no self. The thing is though that I didn't really know what was not self- it was always, either in a gross or subtle way ME who was thinking "there is no self". You wrote <<"Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we > should be training > ourselves not to think about "citanas"">> We need to consider what we have learned about Dhamma so it is necessary sometimes to think about Citta. If is is done wisely it supports direct understanding. However, before we can really understand anything as anatta (not-self) we have to study deeply and directly the different dhammas (realities) as they arise in the present moment. Otherwise we will always stay at an intellectual level where we may correctly think that citta and other khandas are not-self, not mine, etc. but this level is not sufficient to properly penetrate dhammas and eradicate the latent tendency (anusaya) of ditthi (view). Citta is arising every moment but it is hard to properly understand its true nature. Robert > 2194 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 1:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Robert, >Dear Michael, >I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced >cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right >Jim? That seems okay to me. Personally, I pronounce the 'i' as in 'hit' or 'it'. But the shortened form of the long 'i' makes more sense. The division into syllables is cit-ta, each 't' should be pronounced. I thought Michael's original spelling 'citana' stood for 'cetana'. The Dhammasangani lists the following synonyms for 'citta': mano maanasa.m hadaya.m pa.n.dara.m manaayatana.m manindriya.m vi~n~naa.na.m vi~n~naa.nakkhandho manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu. Jim A. 2195 From: Michael Olds Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 1:56pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Well, Jim, what is really going on is I am having two conversations at once, and one of them IS about Cetanaa. How about considering that I asked the same series of questions about that? I have a hard time (a very hard time) catching the distinction between the two in spite of the dictionary. What the heck is an "active" thought? I just don't see the physics this way. Any light you can throw on it would be welcome. That said, I retreat into the structure of my question(s) as the basis of my inquiry into what is going on in the study of the Abhidhamma whatever the meaning of whatever word. Best Wishes! Michael Olds California www.BuddhaDust.org ICQ#94992160 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Anderson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Robert, >Dear Michael, >I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced >cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right >Jim? That seems okay to me. Personally, I pronounce the 'i' as in 'hit' or 'it'. But the shortened form of the long 'i' makes more sense. The division into syllables is cit-ta, each 't' should be pronounced. I thought Michael's original spelling 'citana' stood for 'cetana'. The Dhammasangani lists the following synonyms for 'citta': mano maanasa.m hadaya.m pa.n.dara.m manaayatana.m manindriya.m vi~n~naa.na.m vi~n~naa.nakkhandho manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu. Jim A. 2196 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 5:27pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Michael (MO), First of all, welcome (belatedly) to the discussion group, and anumoddhana for your efforts for finding the truth and getting to the bottom of it despite your suspicion and doubt about the origin of abhidhamma. I think this is what the buddha has taught: only by knowing the truth as it is can one be freed of kilesa and samsara (rebirth cycles). I would like to add to the active discussions that you are currently leading. I am not by anyway addressing all the questions that you have, but would like to add some bits as foods for thought. Buddha taught about realities as they truly are. Even without him, the realities exist as they are. So ultimately, when someone teaches about the truth (the four noble truths), they are teaching what Buddha taught. This is regardless of where the teaching comes from, the vinayana, the sutta, the abhidhamma, the atthagatha, and from other sources. The question then becomes: without knowing about the truth, how do we know who is speaking the truth. What is the authenticity of each source? The Theravada tradition is obviously holding the tipitika as the most authentic source of the truth, holding that the teachings come directly from the Buddha himself. Now, as you and other people have mentioned, there are controversies about some sections of the tipitika, as well as the commentaries added on to it. Logically, don't we have some doubts here about the ENTIRE tipitika itself? Do you believe that one man can remember, accurately, 82,000 different teachings as heard from the Buddha and the Buddha's disciples? Do you believe that after a few hundred years of oral transmission of teachings, that the teachings were written down accurately as the Buddha himself had taught? Are there any rigorous verifications of the different sources (as you might see in bible studies) and are those verifications enough to ensure the truth? I think the answer lies in the fact that the truth is provable, in every single moment of our life. I think we are all in agreement here that the core teachings in the tipitika are provable truth, at least to oneself. The problem then becomes, how do we know when the truth appears to us, that it is the truth, and it is not just our delusion about the truth. I notice that I certainly have the liking of the moment when I think I discover the truth. Because of that, I sometimes hold on to the idea as being the truth just because it makes sense, and I like the idea. So, the advice that I have for myself is that, the best I can possibly do, is to learn about the provable truth as much as I can, look for the consistency and inconsistency, and see it for myself if they make any sense, if the truth as taught appears as the truth as experienced. There is a sutta about the four great references (4 mahapradesh?) that regardless of where the teaching comes from, we need to always cross-reference with somewhere else. It is not a waste of time: in fact, it is the only way to come closer to the truth without knowing the truth ourself. Why do we need to understand (and think about it as it truly is) the truth as it is before we can know what it truly is? This is because when the truth appears, it will be known as such and not otherwise. Not knowing the truth, we will undoubtedly mistake the truth as nontruth, as the nontruth as truth. Hence, learning about the truth is the pre-requisite to developing the knowledge about truth. Without it, we will be only lost in the non-truth even if sometimes we may experience the truth. > Can someone place the citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? As Robert has mentioned, citta is vinnanakhanndas > What is a citana? Citta is the element that is the chief in cognizing an object. Although the conascent cetasikas also cognizes the same object, their functions differ from the citta in that citta's only and chief function is to cognize the object. > What is the origin of a citana? As any sankharadhamma, when there are conditions causing the element to arise, it will arise. I believe Buddha explicitly refused to answer the question about the original arising of citta in the rebirth cycles, as it does not aid in learning about the truth. >What sustains a citana? What is the end of a >citana? >What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? AS any sankharadhamma, when there is no condition for the element to arise, it does not arise. In the case of citta, there is no citta following cuti citta of the arahat as there is no more condition for the next citta to arise. >Is the citana of the >Past >or of the Present or of the Future? As citta rises and falls, a particular citta can be classified into past, present, and future. >Is a citana the self? Does citana >belong >to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of >citana? There is no self in all realities (abhidhammas). >experience is with >modern >psychiatry where clearly focusing on one's problems is something that >the >mind delights in; delighting in it, it goes out to recreate those >problems; My conditions that could have use psychological help in the past has been mostly attachments to the non-truth. Our cittas are experts at cognizing the non-truth: learning about the non-truth doesn't help anybody. Our suffering can be only eliminated by learning about the truth. >The second view is sit down meditation and the particular saying of the >Buddha which is called "Resolve" which I have used as a guide to my My observation in this area is that Buddha knows the accumulations of his pupils and can teach a pupil exactly as the pupil needs to progress: he has the ability to teach the most efficient way that the pupil can progress. However, he did not teach everybody the same way. Not every ariya disciple becomes enlightened in that way. Are you sure you have the accumultations to progress in learning the truth in that manner? >I have a hard time (a very hard >time) >catching the distinction between the two in spite of the dictionary. The citta is briefly described above. Cetana is a cetasikas, a sankhara khanndas, arising with all cittas. The most-readily-understandable interpretation is "intention". When we intend to do something (kill, lie, give, keep sila, etc.), there is intention at work. I hope this adds to the number of worms that are already crawling around. kom 2197 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 8:06pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Michael, Just some brief comments. --- Michael Olds wrote: > Robert, I want to thank you immediately because obviously your > reply is > going to require some homework and thought before I can > respond. So, thank Glad to hear that this list is causing some consideration . .big smile here, I > know you knew > this was coming . . Yep, I figured you would be an active member and that is great. It may be that we never come to agree on all matters pertaining to Dhamma but I have a feeling we see, or will see, a sizeable portion in much the same light. Not necessary that we have to agree about everything; what we should do though is clearly explain our interpretations so that we and anyone listening can fully understand our positions. Hopefully we all learn something that improves our understanding of Dhamma. .but just let me tell you where my > doubting mind has > immediately focused: On this business of needing to "think > about" in order > to see not-self, and this breaking this thinking up into right > thinking Were you thinking about Dhamma when you composed this reply? Do you think about Dhamma when you study the suttas? There are so many levels of understanding but if there has never been consideration of the Dhamma - and that is thinking - then higher levels cannot arise. Imagine telling someone to sit and meditate but never teaching them any Dhamma- what could they understand? Certainly if we believe that thinking about dhammas is the same as directly experiencing them then that is a delusion which must obstruct direct insight. The moments of direct insight are not a matter of thinking in words -for instance if understanding vedana as vedana (feeling as feeling)there is simply sati-sampajanna (mindfulness and clear comprehension)for those brief moments. However, I would suggest that if we believe thinking must obstruct insight into dhammas then that shows that one does not see that "thinking" is simply different namas (mental phenomena) including citta(consciousness) and cetana(volition) arising because they are conditioned to arise. If we wish to stop thinking isn't that moving away from that very moment when thinking arises? Why not be aware of any moment just as it is. You see there can be direct awareness even while thinking. Panna (wisdom) slips in and insights any of the many paramattha dhammas(realities) that are always arising. This happens very quickly. This is one of the differences between samattha and satipatthana vipassana. Robert 2198 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 8:49pm Subject: Welcomes & Bkk update Hi Veronica & dhd5, A late welcome from me to the list too and glad to see you both posting. Veronica, you asked a good question about studying the abhidhamma and we look forward to hearing more from you both. Veronica, i assume you study the Zen teachings as well as the original Tipitaka? Dear Group, We're in Bangkok and had a good discussion today with Khun Sujin and many old friends like Nina Van Gorkom and her husband and also some members from this list I'd not met before such as the group that have come over from California to join our trip to Cambodia and Betty. We're off to Pnom Penh tomorrow (about 50 of us) and will meet some serious Buddhist students and teachers there who are able to listen to Khun Sujin's Thai radio programme. I'm delighted to see all the excellent posts in our absence....this is a quick visit to our hotel's business centre. We look forward to reading the posts on the flight. Best rgds for now, Sarah p.s. Michael J and Sukin, sorry not to have met you this w'end. Do hope you can get to at least one of the English discussions next weekend. (See Amara's 2nd post titled 'Schedules' for details of this). The day at Ell's house on the Monday will also be very pleasant if you're free. 2199 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 10:11pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are presented in what I > would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand. When we hear > Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard this as it was > spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later time. What I > hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this was the > Buddha's word from Sariputta." Dear MO, Evam me sutam means this is what I heard, it does not specify whether it is second, third or fourth hand. In fact several suttas are recounted as accounts heard from another party to whom that event was told by one of the original participants. And the Buddhist teachings were first passed on by rote, several hundred arahanta recited exactly the same words without deviation, since there were no self or mana of any degree in the persons concerned, their memories were not like anything anyone thick with the self and kilesa could understand or imagine. It is not like the Bible where the apostles, however few they were in the New Testament, for example, each told different details about the birth of Christ, etc. Here every syllable was the same. Whether the teachings are true has to be proven by the individual and their accumulations, what remains universal is that each being has eyes, ears, noses, tongues, bodysense and mind, and that is what the Buddha taught about that no other religion does. Whether he talked about them or not theses realities exist and whether we live in ignorance taking them for the self some God created or know them as they really are, realities that are impermanent that should not be taken for the self depends very much on the individual's accumulations. > In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no incongruity with the > suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to show itself to > have been put into the public view under false pretences, it would not > reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who perpetrated the > hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of every > proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such, would > constitute a monumental waste of time. I am sure that if you could prove that this were true you would not be asking any questions here. > So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone else who > cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone place the > citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a citana? What is the > origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of a citana? > What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the citana of the Past > or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does citana belong > to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of citana? As Robert said, citanas do not exist. The citta is vinnana khandha. The cetana cetasika is sankhara khandha. You take both for the self, plus a lot of other realities, because of ignorance. > Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of Citanas > constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, and in-so-far-as > they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to the degree > one was attached to them? > > Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we should be training > ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am citanas"; not to > think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" or "citanas > are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true that as > seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release from citanas? > > I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of my inquiry > into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning citanas, for sure, > but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who study the > Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind contrary to Dhamma. I > have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is just a bias. > My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am sincere. I would suggest that you read the book Summary of Paramatthadhamma in the advanced section of for more precise terminology on which to base our discussions and perhaps a more solid understanding of the abhidhamma, then if you have any more questions we could discuss them more clearly. Anumodana in your sincere interest, Amara