2400 From: Bruce
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
hi dhd
when jody wrote:
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry.
...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous discussions, as the
post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of these
things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to figure out
the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical phenomena", trying to
quantify the world outside experiential reality....
um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential reality?
you wrote:
> Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates sitting
> in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree and the rupa
> of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. The
> collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over and the
> unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the tree
> instead of a few feet away in another direction. The COLLISION was not
> caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka arose from
> the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma just happened
> to ripen then.
>
> The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of the
> discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the natural,
> random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study so much in
> our everyday lives.
the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step back....leaving
aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused by kamma, i
want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by kamma? i ask
because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa are
conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other wind -- is in
itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical phenomena" you
mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought into being by
means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this manner? i'm
quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last sentence
above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if that's the case
then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall away dependent
on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the intricate workings
of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no longer be
considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are phenomena that are
not conditioned by kamma (other than the un-conditioned)....can something
other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
or did i read too much into the above: were you simply saying all along
that we spend too much time trying to figure out the so-called physical
universe, when true knowledge/panna of experiential reality is so urgent?
looking forward to all comments, view-adjustments and well-lit examples....
mettacittena
bruce
2401 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 226
Dear Alex,
Am indeed sorry to hear of the loss of your mother. You are very fortunate
that you could be there for her up until the very end and thus the metta and
care you extended to her will be of great benefit to both of you: you for
the kusala kamma you have created with your mother and for her, the very
fortunate vipaka to have you for a loving and caring daughter.
May the study and increasing understanding of dhamma bring comfort to you
and your father.
With fond regards,
Betty Yugala
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
2402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 6:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
Dear bruce,
I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad
thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do
have comments.
Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the
workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can
know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly
conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the
past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According
to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until
a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because
the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See
further below.
--- Bruce wrote: > hi dhd
> > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> discussions, as the
> post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of
> these
> things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to
> figure out
> the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> phenomena", trying to
> quantify the world outside experiential reality...
____________
I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in
thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge
has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way
to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both
suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For
instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas,
the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if
we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it
was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we
might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some
of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and
brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it
useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety
of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are
states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It
seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other
planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop
me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or
devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a
rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it
is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am
simply gullible. Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful
stories that apply to our lives.
The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout
the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such
things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish
and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
doesn't surprise me.
____________>
> um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> reality?
>
> you wrote:
>
> > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> sitting
> > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree
> and the rupa
> > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka.
> The
> > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> and the
> > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> tree
> > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> COLLISION was not
> > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> arose from
> > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> just happened
> > to ripen then.
> >
> > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> the
> > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> natural,
> > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study
> so much in
> > our everyday lives.
>
> the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> back....leaving
> aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused
> by kamma, i
> want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> kamma? i ask
> because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa
> are
> conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other wind
> -- is in
> itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
__________________
There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature)
and ahara (nutrition).
All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness),
(apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and
vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a
massive range of intensity and so we get much variety in flora,
in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu
is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions
to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good
kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel
arises due to his good kamma.
__________
>
> i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> phenomena" you
> mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought
> into being by
> means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this
> manner? i'm
> quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last
> sentence
> above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> that's the case
> then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall
> away dependent
> on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
-----------------
No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma.
All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,
is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma. You are
entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena
arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower
than namas but still incredibly fast.
__________________>
> i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> intricate workings
> of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no
> longer be
> considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> phenomena that are
> not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> un-conditioned)....can something
> other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
__________
There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study
the others too.
This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear
that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to
arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha
would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to
fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this
fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would
love to know more about this topic)
Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will
add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs
non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind).
Robert
2403 From: Bruce
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
hi robert
thanks for posting such a clear, honest and profound reply....i'll reread
it a few times before i make comments, though i have a feeling most of my
comments will be along the lines of "thanks for making this clear" and "now
i see"...
big anumodana
bruce
At 02:50 2000/12/17 -0800, you wrote:
> Dear bruce,
> I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad
> thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do
> have comments.
> Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the
> workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can
> know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
> objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly
> conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the
> past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
> Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According
> to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until
> a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because
> the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See
> further below.
> --- Bruce wrote: > hi dhd
> > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> > discussions, as the
> > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of
> > these
> > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to
> > figure out
> > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> > phenomena", trying to
> > quantify the world outside experiential reality...
> ____________
> I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in
> thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
> things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge
> has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way
> to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both
> suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For
> instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas,
> the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if
> we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
> exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it
> was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we
> might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some
> of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and
> brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
> majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it
> useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety
> of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
> animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are
> states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
> Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
> detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It
> seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
> bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other
> planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop
> me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or
> devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a
> rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it
> is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
> thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am
> simply gullible. Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful
> stories that apply to our lives.
> The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout
> the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
> that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
> least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
> astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such
> things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish
> and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
> doesn't surprise me.
> ____________>
> > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> > reality?
> >
> > you wrote:
> >
> > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> > sitting
> > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree
> > and the rupa
> > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka.
> > The
> > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> > and the
> > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> > tree
> > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> > COLLISION was not
> > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> > arose from
> > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> > just happened
> > > to ripen then.
> > >
> > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> > the
> > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> > natural,
> > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study
> > so much in
> > > our everyday lives.
> >
> > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> > back....leaving
> > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused
> > by kamma, i
> > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> > kamma? i ask
> > because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa
> > are
> > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other wind
> > -- is in
> > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
>
> __________________
> There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
> actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature)
> and ahara (nutrition).
> All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
> inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness),
> (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and
> vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a
> massive range of intensity and so we get much variety in flora,
> in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
> conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu
> is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
> considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
> never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions
> to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
> inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good
> kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel
> arises due to his good kamma.
>
> __________
> >
> > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> > phenomena" you
> > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought
> > into being by
> > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this
> > manner? i'm
> > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last
> > sentence
> > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> > that's the case
> > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall
> > away dependent
> > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
> -----------------
> No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma.
> All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,
> is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
> factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma. You are
> entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena
> arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower
> than namas but still incredibly fast.
> __________________>
> > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> > intricate workings
> > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no
> > longer be
> > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> > phenomena that are
> > not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> > un-conditioned)....can something
> > other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
> __________
> There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
> Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study
> the others too.
> This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
> is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear
> that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to
> arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha
> would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to
> fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this
> fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would
> love to know more about this topic)
>
>
> Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will
> add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
> By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs
> non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
> think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind).
> Robert
>
2404 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (correction) If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
Sorry, made another error.
> > know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
> > objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always
> partly
> > conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in
> the
> > past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
________________
2nd line should read:SEEING is always partly conditioned by
prior kamma. (not visible object)
robert
> > Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction.
> According
> > to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result
> until
> > a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result
> because
> > the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide.
> See
> > further below.
> > --- Bruce wrote: > hi dhd
> > > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> > > discussions, as the
> > > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the
> futility of
> > > these
> > > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying
> to
> > > figure out
> > > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> > > phenomena", trying to
> > > quantify the world outside experiential reality...
> > ____________
> > I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university
> in
> > thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
> > things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist
> knowledge
> > has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that
> way
> > to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika,
> both
> > suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove.
> For
> > instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta
> Brahmas,
> > the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even
> if
> > we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
> > exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However,
> it
> > was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana
> we
> > might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do
> some
> > of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas
> and
> > brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
> > majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find
> it
> > useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide
> variety
> > of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
> > animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These
> are
> > states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
> > Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
> > detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too.
> It
> > seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
> > bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be
> other
> > planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't
> stop
> > me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to
> Brahmas or
> > devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be
> a
> > rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't
> say it
> > is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
> > thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I
> am
> > simply gullible. Either way the jatakas have a wealth of
> useful
> > stories that apply to our lives.
> > The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard
> throughout
> > the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
> > that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
> > least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
> > astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make
> such
> > things possible what could a being who was able to
> distinguish
> > and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
> > doesn't surprise me.
> > ____________>
> > > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> > > reality?
> > >
> > > you wrote:
> > >
> > > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five
> aggregates
> > > sitting
> > > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the
> tree
> > > and the rupa
> > > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to
> akusala-vipaka.
> > > The
> > > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree
> over
> > > and the
> > > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to
> the
> > > tree
> > > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> > > COLLISION was not
> > > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The
> akusala-vipaka
> > > arose from
> > > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> > > just happened
> > > > to ripen then.
> > > >
> > > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus
> of
> > > the
> > > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from
> the
> > > natural,
> > > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we"
> study
> > > so much in
> > > > our everyday lives.
> > >
> > > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> > > back....leaving
> > > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not
> caused
> > > by kamma, i
> > > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> > > kamma? i ask
> > > because i've been operating under the assumption that all
> rupa
> > > are
> > > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other
> wind
> > > -- is in
> > > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> > > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
> >
> > __________________
> > There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
> > actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu
> (temperature)
> > and ahara (nutrition).
> > All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
> > inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi,
> hardness),
> > (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension):
> and
> > vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in
> a
> > massive range of intensity and so we get much variety in
> flora,
> > in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
> > conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature.
> Utu
> > is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
> > considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
> > never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of
> exceptions
> > to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
> > inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there
> good
> > kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the
> wheel
> > arises due to his good kamma.
> >
> > __________
> > >
> > > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> > > phenomena" you
> > > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are
> brought
> > > into being by
> > > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in
> this
> > > manner? i'm
> > > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your
> last
> > > sentence
> > > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> > > that's the case
> > > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> > > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately
> fall
> > > away dependent
> > > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
> > -----------------
> > No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by
> kamma.
> > All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching,
> smelling,
> > is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
> > factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma. You are
> > entirely correct though that all physical and mental
> phenomena
> > arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly
> slower
> > than namas but still incredibly fast.
> > __________________>
> > > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> > > intricate workings
> > > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would
> no
> > > longer be
> > > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> > > phenomena that are
> > > not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> > > un-conditioned)....can something
> > > other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
> > __________
> > There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
> > Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to
> study
> > the others too.
> > This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something
> that
> > is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is
> clear
> > that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just
> to
> > arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the
> atthakattha
> > would give more details. But what they do give us is enough
> to
> > fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect
> this
> > fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I
> would
> > love to know more about this topic)
> >
> >
> > Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully
> will
> > add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
> > By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting
> vs
> > non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
> > think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind).
> > Robert
> >
2405 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: List Bulletin - Coping with the flood
Dear All
Some members have mentioned that the volume of mail
being generated by our list is playing havoc with
their inbox.
Here are some ways of dealing with this embarrassment
of riches (you may like to print this page out and
keep it for reference)-
1) Choose to receive the mail from the list in
‘Digest’ form. This means that you receive just one
email message containing many separate postings,
making it very easy to scroll through and read just
the messages that interest you most. See the
instructions below for going to the eGroups website
and changing your delivery options.
2) Choose not to receive any email messages but to
read messages by going to the list’s Web site. See
the instructions below for going to the eGroups
website and changing your delivery options.
3) Set up Filters in your existing email program so
that all the mail from this list goes into its own
folder. This will keep it from getting mixed in with
your other messages.
4) Open a web-based (ie free) email account specially
to receive messages from this list. This is very easy
to do – see instructions below. Having done that,
send a (blank) message from the new address to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182252013035049209110050229241215252 This will
join you to the list under your new address. Then
send a (blank) message to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024193234193105034158254228105220182126137091252086039147035038070085168 from your old
email address to unsubscribe there.
Whatever your choice, there’s no need to unsubscribe!
Happy reading
Jonothan & Sarah
(List Moderators)
=============================================
How to change your Delivery Options at the eGroups
website
You have a choice here:
A – FROM THE ‘MY GROUPS’ PAGE
1) Go the eGroups home page at http://www.egroups.com/
. (If you have not been to the eGroups website
before, you may need to register by giving your email
address and a password.)
2) Click on the ‘My Groups’ tab.
3) In the My Groups page you should see a list of the
groups to which you belong and, on the right hand
side, the heading ‘Delivery Options’. You will see a
box with your current option showing (eg ‘Individual
Emails’)
4) Click on the arrows and choose one of the other
options.
5) Click on the ‘Save Changes’ box.
B - FROM THE MEMBERSHIP PAGE
1) Go to the list’s home page at
http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup. (If
you have not been to the eGroups website before, you
may need to register by giving your email address and
a password.)
2) On the right-hand side of the window you should
see the heading ‘Membership’ and underneath a link
which says ‘Modify’.
3) Click on ‘Modify’ and you will find yourself in
the ‘Membership Options’ page.
4) Under the heading ‘Message Delivery’ there are 3
buttons (Individual email messages, Daily digest and
Reading messages at the web site). Click the button
of you choice.
=========================================
Opening a free email account
In our experience, Yahoo works much better than
Hotmail (quicker response, less junk mail), especially
since Yahoo took over eGroups.
Go to http://mail.yahoo.com/ or http://www.hotmail.com/
and follow the prompts for new users to sign up.
2406 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:56am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions
Hello Robert and dh5,
Sorry, I'll be more specific. I rushed that last response through.
I was referring more to some secondary sources I've read. I need to
track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.
I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words
that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a
way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite
Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the present".
So maybe it is not the comments at all, but my own faults.
I am still at a stage of contemplating that which encapsulates where
I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just trying to establish
what is best for me at present.
Thanks for your patience, Jody.
2407 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:43am
Subject: Re: Re : Questions
> I need to
> track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
> by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.
Dear Jody,
As Betty once wrote, modern science studies the 'rupa' parts of the
world, although so far they have never been able to disprove
anything in the Buddha's teachings. Astronomers only recently had
instuments powerful enough to capture visual 'evidences' of other
planetary systems, impossible according to Christian teachings, for
example, since for them the earth is the center of the universe,
long since proven wrong by modern science since the sun does not
revolve around the earth as said in the Bible. The Buddha, however,
spoke of hundreds of thousands of galaxies and other worlds 2500+
years before humans were able to bring them into view.
> I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words
> that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a
> way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
> power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite
> Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the
present".
As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, anything is welcome as
topic of discussion as long as it concerns the dhamma, and as
everything that exists and is real is the dhamma, even western
discourses and sciences are patterns of thoughts and therefore
concepts in patterns as remembered by the sanna or memory, all could
be discussed and analysed logically as objects of the mind dvara.
According to Buddhist analysis, they are conventional realities that
could only be experienced through the mind, while other realities
could appear through the eye, such as the sight and color and light
of the computer and other objects appearing as visible objects at
this very moment, as well as the seeing, which lead us to believing
that we are seeing and hearing and touching even now.
We could only gradually accumulate knowledge of their specific
characteristics to add to our knowledge of the dhamma as they really
are, to attenuate our ignorance through the study of realities that
appear at each moment. When they have fallen away without our
awareness, it is too late to do so and they never return again in the
exact same way with their particular characteristics. Here even
modern physics will tell you that the atoms have evolved, the
protrons and neutrons have revolved countless times with each
passing split second. Yet the Buddha tells us that the nama is 17
times faster than the rupa so I doubt any man-made machine could
ever capture it to measure it, besides, it is without any shape of
form whatever, so it could never be measured in any 'scientific' way.
That the Buddha was able to penetrate such dhamma is the wonder of
his wisdom, and that he found the way to end the ceaseless rounds of
samsara by ending ignorance about realities is a marvel beyond any
scientific discovery, or any miracle in the universe to me.
Amara
2408 From:
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 0:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood
Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
:o)
rgds
2409 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 1:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] - Coping with the flood
Dear Gayan,
No one is complaining, but some people find the mail
too overwhelming in their mailbox and feel they need
to delist as a result. We're just trying to give
advice about ways the mail can be better organised to
avoid this.....
so glad you're finding the list so helpful as are we!
Sarah
--- wrote: >
>
>
> Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
>
> I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
>
> I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
>
>
> :o)
>
>
> rgds
>
2410 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:04pm
Subject: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI
Dear Mike,
I'm following along yr response to Jonothan's summary:
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> I've thought about this too--listening to recordings
> is more like reading. It's surely the result of
> good
> past kamma to be where you can hear Buddhadhamma
> from
> someone who can tell if you're 'getting' it or not.
> This list acts in that way, to some extent, don't
> you
> think?
Definitely, it's proving very useful for us all.
> This again is perfectly pertinent to our
> discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
> pariyatti, as this hadn't come up. The distinction
> (and the failure to distinguish) between these two
> also adds a dimension to the discussion. Though
> still
> most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
> regard to both?
Even when we're talking about pariyatti (rt intell
und.) it's essential to remember the citta must be
kusala. A child can repeat that seeing sees visible
object and it's not self etc or we can recite all the
cetasikas by rote. It is not pariyatti if it is not
kusala and that's a big proviso! So the study always
needs to come back to this moment and to knowing the
reality appearing now. Even in a dhamma discussion or
reading a Sutta, there are bound to be many more
moments of akusala than kusala I find. What we read or
consider is just in order to understand realities
better at this moment (patipada). Otherwise it's just
academic study. Khun Sujin reminded us that only the
direct understanding will be accumulted at the end of
this lifetime. All the intellectual understanding and
academic knowledge will be lost.
> Thanks, very useful. So the danger isn't in
> conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
> tanha, ditthi and/or mana? Or any other akusala, I
> suppose...
The danger is in thinking accompanied by wrong view
(ditthi) in particular. But it's not a matter of
trying to have less akusala thinking as this just
shows the strong clinging to self. There's no need to
be afraid of it, but just develop more understanding
of all realities.
>
> - The fact that things still appear as
> > conceptualised
> > objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> > awareness of seeing or visible object.
>
> Simultaneously? So is this pariyatti? Awareness
> with
> concept? Of concept?
Different moments! Remember the awareness darting in
between the concepts to be aware of the reality,
visible object in this example.
You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels of
sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote.
Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
from killing for example), there is sati at the level
of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
object. There is giving to a person, though there is
no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no
understanding of the value of giving at that moment
either, so although the wholesome cittas are
accumulated they are not developed. Is that confusing?
At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in
this case, even though the object is a concept, there
is understanding at this level and thus the value of
samatha is known for a moment and developed. For
example, there may be metta now which is directed to a
person (concept) and understood. There is still no
awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot be
developed.
At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about
the development of right awareness of realities in
order that the eightfold path may be developed), sati
must be aware over and over and over again of namas as
namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion
about what is experiencing and what is experienced.
So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is
experiencing visible object, no self in it. Awareness
begins to be aware of it so that understanding can
develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is very
ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or
sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is now.
Nothing special. Then there is another reality and
another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or
wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the
clinging to self. No awareness.
Visible object is the reality which is seen now. Again
when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary. As
awareness and understanding develop (together) they
'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and
begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment.
Anatta is not something different from the seeing and
visible object appearing now. The nature of these
realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or special
experiences. As Robert has pointed out, we don't have
to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels of
insight when there is so little awareness and
understanding of the realities appearing now. Being
aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to
understanding the difference between them when they
appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are
celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a
meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about to
be!
So in between the countless moments of akusala citta
arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of
different kinds with different levels of sati
accompanying them.
I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to
hearing from you or anyone else.
Sarah
p.s. re Kom's and our confusion over yr off-list reply
to Robert- seems like the message is you'd better put
these on list for us all to share from the outset! We
don't mind if they're long-winded at all.
pps. I promise to return to the monk's life in my next
post.
2411 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 6:33pm
Subject: Re:Questions
Jody wrote:
"I need to
track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.
I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying
words
that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was
a
way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my
favourite
Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of
the present"."
_______
Thanks jody, looking forward to any western influences you can
find in the archives.
Science is a powerful way of discerning some aspects of our
world but we need to guard against viewing buddhist ideas
through the cultural glasses of our age. Joe cummings, on this
list, wrote some interesting letters on triple gem about this,
hopefully he will pick up this thread.
Robert
2412 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was
trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was
thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was
where it was....I need to learn Mike's search
techniques....
Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
situation or the place or time. At this moment there
can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other
realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no
meditation centre.
On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on
the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was
clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy,
crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
In other words whenever we are showing preferences to
situations, it shows the importance we attach to
ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.
Thanks Robert.
Sarah
>
> --- wrote:
> MIKE: > You're right, but MUCH more difficult,
> living in the
> world.
> > The
> > influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR
> more
> > pervasive.
> >
> > DASOKA:You will not afraid of these if you have
> enough
> confidence in
> > you and
> > the dhamma you've insighted.
>
ROBERT wrote:> I think this is difficult to comprehend
but true. We
> know the
> laylife is one of dust and busyness but insight can
> develop at
> any time, even while we are busy.....
> The Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.63
> Migajala Sutta
> Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on
> arrival, having
> bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was
> sitting there he
> said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A
> person
> living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent,
> lord, is one a
> person living alone, and to what extent is one a
> person living
> with a companion?"
> "Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye --
> agreeable,
> pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire,
> enticing -- and
> a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them.
> As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them,
> delight arises. There being delight, he is
> impassioned. Being
> impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the
> fetter of
> delight is said to be a person living with a
> companion.
>
> ......and a monk does not relish them, welcome them,
> or remain
> fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome
> them, or
> remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being
> no delight,
> he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is
> not
> fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of
> delight is said to
> be a person living alone.
>
> "A person living in this way -- even if he lives
> near a village,
> associating with monks & nuns, with male & female
> lay followers,
> with king & royal ministers, with sectarians & their
> disciples
> -- is still said to be living alone. A person living
> alone is
> said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is
> his
> companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he
> is said to
> be a person living alone."
> Robert
>
>
2413 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear sarah,
Of course I agree that the situation is only concept and that we
should understand that dhammas are only dhammas wherever and
whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where the Buddha
said such things as "I have given you the roots of trees..
meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along those lines.
And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open compared to
the dusty closed in life of a layperson.
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear
Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
>
> The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
> sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was
> trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was
> thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was
> where it was....I need to learn Mike's search
> techniques....
>
> Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
> situation or the place or time. At this moment there
> can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other
> realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no
> meditation centre.
>
> On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on
> the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was
> clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy,
> crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
> In other words whenever we are showing preferences to
> situations, it shows the importance we attach to
> ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
> alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.
>
> Thanks Robert.
>
> Sarah
>
>
2414 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Taking robes
Dear Mike,
As I mentioned, with a prompt from Amara, I raised
many of your comments on this topic (in Bkk) with
K.Sujin, Nina and Jonothan and will be keeping these
in mind as I try to respond to your post.
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
Sarah wrote
> > Nothing wrong in
> > any
> > of this and not an indicator at all of any level
> of
> > kusala or akusala, but just an indicator of
> > accumulations which are not affected by taking
> > robes.
The point of this was to show that even after many
years as a monk, the accumulations don't change. Khun
Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One needs
to know one's accumulations very well indeed.
>
> No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) will
> affect past accumulations. However, new
> accumulations
> after one has begun observing the 226 precepts will
> certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> vipaka--right?
Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
will protect one from (performing) akusala
kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds). Like now, one can
try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever the
situation.
K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules? Aren't
5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed out
that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
precepts too and A.Cha's article which someone kindly
highlighted was a good reminder of this. The friend we
mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because he
found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri
Lanka to take robes again correctly.
>
> > I might make similar comments with regard to your
> > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > life....isn't this thinking?
>
> To be sure! And I'm not actually complaining about
> these things. In fact, I have a great job, good
> friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> thing. I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> Alan was, in my own way. More to the point,
So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
we stay as a monk for this life, what about next life?
>
> > What about awareness
> > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > conversations,
> > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> as
> > real at these times!
>
> Of course! And by the way, a monk's life is just as
> full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's.
> Contrary
> to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> that
> simply living the 'holy life' does much of anything
> to
> eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way of
> expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.
Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
life...many duties and obligations and listening to
dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to follow
dhamma!..... When we had our discussion on this theme
we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina pointed
out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
attended that day.
> This
> brings me back to my other (rather unclearly stated)
> motives: That it's a great job that needs to be
> done,
Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the most
important job to be done. Being aware and
understanding reality now is more important than any
idea of a particular lifestyle. K.Sujin asked why we
are so attached to the yellow cloth? This is not to
say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha as
preserver of the Teachings through the ages.
> and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> kamma-pathas.
superficially if at all....Jonothan gave the example
of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does nothing
to eradiacate the real problem.
By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> a
> recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything we
> want to do. I realize that this intention is
> conditioned almost entirely by the three unwholesome
> roots. That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> has
> been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> the
> days of the arahats. However, I don't think that
> this
> is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do you?
> If I waited until my motives were completely pure, I
> would never have performed any act of dana, sila or
> bhavana.
Well, different moments and different cittas as usual.
i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve the
Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing more
understanding. These you are doing now with your
excellent contributions here.
>
>
> I'll consider this--hard to convert a personal
> conversation into a general discussion. However, do
> please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> get
> something going.
>
Well, actually you have posted it to the list and pls
keep up yr responses to the list. I hope Jonothan &
Jaran who were present during the discussion on the
topic will chip in with extra points I've overlooked.
it was actually quite a lengthy discussion.
Btw when the tapes are organised, you may wish to
order this one which was on Dec 11th (afternoon
session) at Elle's house.
> Talk to you soon, and, welcome back?
Yes, back into the swing & actually happy (w/lobha) to
be back to my routine!
>
Sarah
2415 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote: > Dear
sarah,
> Of course I agree that the situation is only concept
> and that we
> should understand that dhammas are only dhammas
> wherever and
> whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where
> the Buddha
> said such things as "I have given you the roots of
> trees..
> meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along
> those lines.
> And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open
> compared to
> the dusty closed in life of a layperson.
> Robert
As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at
the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the
tree, develop understanding....
Yes the monk's life of the one aspiring to arahatship
(with the right accumulations to do so) is wide open
and truly wonderful as compared to our daily lives,
cluttered with kilesa.....One point is, can anyone
really aspire to arahatship today in this life?
As I mentioned in my post just sent, I hope Jonothan &
Jaran will add comments from their understanding too.
I'm not an expert here at all...! (Not that I am
anywhere else either...)
Thanks agin,
Sarah
2416 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:24pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions
Dear Jody,
It's good to see you so active on this list.
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: >
> I am still at a stage of contemplating that which
> encapsulates where
> I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just
> trying to establish
> what is best for me at present.
>
I originally trained as a psychologist, but when I
started studying Buddhism and in particular,
abhidhamma, I found it most helpful to approach it as
an entirely new subject, one that could be checked out
at this moment. If you try to relate it to other
theories and subjects which are theoretical constructs
only, it will be very confusing.
May I suggest that what is best for all of us at
present is to understand more about the present
realities, to study and know the difference between
concepts and realities. The many excellent posts on
this subject in recent days can help to clarify what
is real and what is mere delusion!
look f/w to hearing more.
Sarah
2417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear sarah,
see my comments below:
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: >
Robert,
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote: > Dear
> sarah,
> > there are quite a few suttas where
> > the Buddha
> > said such things as "I have given you the roots of
> > trees..
> > meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along
> > those lines.
> > And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open
> > compared to
> > the dusty closed in life of a layperson.
> > Robert
>
>
> As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at
> the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the
> tree, develop understanding....
>
actually I was just thinking about that yesterday. the buddha in
the vinaya told the monks that the home they should expect was
no better than the roots of trees! (But he allowed more
comfortable quarters if these were offered). So exactly right -
bhavana wherever. Some people though do have more accumulations
to live alone and this can be helpful for them - but always it
is right view that is foremost. funnily enough i used to dislike
crowds, now I hardly notice the difference whether I'm walking
through shinjuku station (tokyo - 2million people a day) or up
on Mt aso, (barren).
2418 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:48am
Subject: 'Paccaya' in 'advanced'
Dear friends,
We have uploaded the booklet 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the
advanced section of , as usual there are
bound to be mistakes and such, so we would appreciate any corrections
very much,
Amara
2419 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Dear Dan,
Please excuse the lateness of this reply--trying to
catch up:
--- wrote:
> When the realization of the dissolution and
> slipperiness of the
> aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning
> of samsara
> becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be
> presented to the mind
> in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can
> think: "Oh, look!
> There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear
> may naturally
> arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present
> itself like the
> ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the
> sound of a tree branch
> cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more
> like fear just
> being presented to the mind as an object, an object
> like so many
> others that are presented, but in the presentation
> it becomes clear
> that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is
> one tool that the
> Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that
> contemplating detachedly
> the natural fear that arises with insight into
> anatta is a powerful
> weapon to wield against that fear and against the
> Self-notion.
As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a
paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even
profound insight. I just wanted to comment on this
because it reminded me of something much more mundane
that I've noticed myself. When I've explained a
little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's
always the smartest ones who react most quickly and
with the strongest aversion. I think this is because
those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the
extent to which everything they've ever believed in is
called into question. What is it that gives values to
mundane life? Just attachment, aversion and
identification with them. All the 'good' values of
the world are like this: "I love freedom and hate
tyranny, love justice and hate injustice, love
kindness and hate cruelty, love generosity and hate
greed, love love and hate hatred..." etc., etc. So,
maybe I'm not talking about the same thing you were,
but maybe there's some common ground. The fear I'm
talking about is the well-justified fear of loss of
identity and moral 'rightness'--and it seems to work
strongly against the arising of understanding in the
uninstructed.
> In
> instances like these, some questions that come up
> might be: Is fear
> unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear
> presents itself to the
> mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and
> adhitana), it seems to
> me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant
> feeling or even fear
> when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a
> reliable indication
> that the practice has gone astray.
I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm
not sure I understand it. I think of fear as just
aversion toward an idea of some future
unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
domanassa. The only forms of aversion I can remember
the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard
to misconduct, for example in the Maha-Parinibbana
Sutta:
"The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not
their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they shall have
faith, so long as they have moral shame and fear of
misconduct, are proficient in learning, resolute,
mindful, and wise."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html
> [Please be patient with my mangling of technical
> terms. I'm here to
> learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". Help
> in this regard
> would be greatly appreciated.]
Hope I don't seem gratuitously argumentative or
critical--ust a train of thought triggered by your own
observations. If I've misunderstood you, my
apologies--I'll be grateful for any
clarifications...mike
2420 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> refined lobha comes with rather
> refined pleasant
> feeling (but still coarse compared to that with
> kusala) so is
> hard to distinguish. It needs ever more study and
> care and panna
> to do so.
I think this is an always-timely caution--thanks...mike
2421 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions
Dear Jody,
My apologies for the tardy response:
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote:
>
> Dear Robert, Mike, dh5, and amara,
>
> Thank you for the excellent responses! It wasen't so
> much
> the teachings of the Lord Buddha I questioned, but
> some of the
> interpretations and accompanying elaborations that
> I've come across.
>
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of
> Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and,
> biochemistry. These seem to be
> mental constructs that many may be assuming as
> discovering
> characteristics
> of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during
> the time of the
> Buddha.
I've run across a lot of this too. So far, though
I've seen some tempting arguments, I haven't found
anything in scientific perspective that seems to
improve understanding of dhamma. Usually it seems to
me to be an attempt, at best, to create a hybrid of
the two--reducing or obscuring the dhamma by just the
amount of the admixture of the other.
> I have no doubt that the Dhamma provides a means to
> nibbaana. That
> there are three characteristics to existence,
> dukkha, anicca, and antta.
> That the middle way will lead to salvation. I
> believe in kamma. etc.
Glad we're in agreement!
> I just wonder sometimes that some engage in
> intellectualizing the
> Dhamma with the so-called advanced answers of the
> present.
Even when it seems like this--complex investigations
of mental factors and all that sort of thing--which is
really more intellectualized--analysis of the nature
of the immediate, or reference to the seemingly
simpler world of concepts? I think the latter.
Hope I don't seem to be nit-picking or trying to argue
with you, and that you can find something of value in
this reply...mike
2422 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
Hullo, Bruce!
Pardon the late reply,
--- Bruce wrote:
> i've been operating under the assumption
> that all rupa are
> conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any
> other wind -- is in
> itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
If I understand this correctly, rupa can be
conditioned by kamma, heat, nutrition or citta--or
various combinations of the above. I think it's only
rupa that is (re)born that is conditioned by
kamma--I'm not sure about this, I'm only just reading
about it now. I'm sure you'll get MUCH
better-informed responses.
For what it's worth...mike
2423 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood
Dear Gayan,
I'm enjoying the swim, too! Nice to hear from
you...mike
--- wrote:
> Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
>
> I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
>
> I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
>
>
> :o)
>
>
> rgds
>
2424 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI
Dear Sarah,
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to
hearing from you or anyone else.
There certainly is a great deal! I look forward to
responding, but it may not be possible for a couple of
days.
Thanks for the excellent reply...mike
2425 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI
Dear Mike,
I just want to make a correction to the para below
before you take it up.. It was a little confusing to
me at least...esp. when I just re-read it. The
correction is about the understanding in the last
sentence, not about the sati. Apologies again for
posting late without checking! S.
> You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels
> of
> sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote.
> Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
> citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
> from killing for example), there is sati at the
> level
> of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
> these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
> object. There is giving to a person, though there is
> no wrong view at the moment of giving. There may or
>may not be
> understanding of the value of giving at that moment,
>so although the wholesome cittas are
> accumulated they may or may not be developed with
>understanding of the value of kusala. This is
>different from the two kinds of bhavana (mental
>development) discussed below which must be
accompanied >by rt understanding.
>
>
2426 From:
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Sarah,
In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were
arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
many times in previous buddhasasanas.
Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be
discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person'
towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future.
The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those
accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may
not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present.
Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over
uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed
there.
Rgds.
2427 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:50pm
Subject: 'Abhidhamma ch.2' + corrections of ch.1
Dear All,
Sorry for the mistakes in 'Abhidhamma ch.1', corrections and 2nd
installment up today...advanced section,
Amara
2428 From:
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Sarah,
In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were
arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
many times in previous buddhasasanas.
Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be
discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person'
towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future.
The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those
accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may
not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present.
Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over
uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed
there.
Rgds.
2429 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 7:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Sarah,
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
>
> The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
> sutta of all...to me it says it all.
Yes, this is a great one and I certainly do agree with
you all.
> I need to learn Mike's search
> techniques....
Not much to it, Sarah--remind me and we'll talk
off-list.
> Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
> situation or the place or time. At this moment there
> can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the
> other
> realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds,
> no
> meditation centre.
True, of course.
> On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen
> on
> the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this
> was
> clinging to self.
If I understand this right, she's referring to
clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'? Wasn't
it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a
table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi? Or was it Khun
Sujin? Or did I misunderstand this altogether?
> I prefer not to go into noisy,
> crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
> In other words whenever we are showing preferences
> to
> situations, it shows the importance we attach to
> ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
> alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.
True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS
conditioned, in part, by your having been in the
situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma
countless times in the past. I had a brief 'debate'
with a very venerable monk once who held that the
Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns. The Buddha
certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently
spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other
secluded places. True, he was recommending these
specifically to monks and also true that many, many
householders attained nibbana while presumably living
'enjoying the pleasures of the five
sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in town.
Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence from
the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently
and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the
assumption that listeners of the present age are
beyond benefitting them. How how many of us, living
completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on
contention for the things of the world, completely
surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements
to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living
alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala Sutta?
Not many, I think, and I think the Buddha expressed
this same idea each time he repeated the expression,
"...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go
forth from home into homelessness...". His praise of
'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only to
specific individuals, it was quite general and very
frequent. He usually seemed to be simply referring to
this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca:
"...A householder or householder's son, hearing the
Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and
reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path.
The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not
easy living at home to practice the holy life totally
perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if
I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre
robes, and go forth from the household life into
homelessness?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html
I think the most persuasive argument against ordaining
now is the deteriorated states of both the
bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general. It may
be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome enough
at this late date for benefit to be derived from
ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven knows
mine are no prize!). Once again, though, in the
absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that
'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that, in
general, it's a good thing to do.
All of that said, I must tell you how much I
appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments.
They continue to condition investigation of the many
motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is
very useful.
Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back!
mike
2430 From: Michael J Jackson
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Michael J says bye for now
Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and others
With respect and good will to you all, I would like to wind down my
participation in the list with a few more contributions that atttempt to
tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old.
On 25 Nov. Michael J was responding to e-mails from Sarah, Amara and Robert
among others:
>I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will eventually
>answer those questions asked by Robert and Amara at a
>later date. Please stand by for a few days or a week.
Robert
I am unable to write my essay on meditation right now and may not be able to
do so for a while. Sorry if this sounds like a weak lame cop out etc. During
the past 3 weeks my focus has shifted away from the list while I have been
distracted by WFB/WBU work and personal matters. I also have to focus more
on my PhD research too.
I went to the World Fellowship of Buddhists H.Q. in Bangkok to use their
library hoping they would have a collection of PTS Tipitaka volumes in
English (not available) for me to research the essay that I had promised to
write about meditation etc. Then I met the Secretary General of the WFB and
he asked me to help out with the conference and the World Buddhist
University inauguration etc. I agreed to help but didn't realise what I was
getting into. It took over my life from then until about 17 Dec. I am still
tired. I have finally finished the work and feel able to say enough is
enough. So in a way the messages on this list were part of the conditions
that led me to go to the WFB. If anyone is interested you can visit the
website http://www.wb-university.org/
I don't like not keeping my promise. So I am asking for an open extension on
the assignment? It may take me much longer to respond than I originally
anticipated.
Sukin
Thanks for being a dear friend in the Dhamma. I shall continue to see you
while in Bangkok and communicate via e-mail.
Mike N.
Thank you for your good will and gentle contributions to the e-mail list.
Alex Tran
I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 years or more
ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I know how
it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss
contribute to deeper understanding and compassion.
Khun Amara
Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't
communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not to
respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we would
only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another.
Sarah and Johnothan
I re-read Sarah's e-mail of
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:54:17 -0000
From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott"
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana
I hope you don't mind if I just leave it at that and don't take up the
discussion from there. I am not as lucid or articulate now as I was 3-4
weeks ago. I need to reserve my energy for the PhD research now.
I will just write that Sarah's response to my earlier postings on meditation
etc. was well put but that I am unable to personally benefit from it. I
think I need to meditate, study and then write the essay I have promised
(not necessarily in that order or seperately etc.). Until then I think I
would not benefit from active participation in either the list or the
English language discussion group. I am aware that some people think this is
a marvelous opportunity. But I am not ready for it so I have to leave for
now.
Everyone
Thank you all for your patience with my badly written long-winded
contributions. I may return in the future - some of us will see what
happens.
May the new year bring everyone happiness, peace, health, prosperity,
wisdom, faith, and the 37 Bodhipakkhiyadhamma (enlightenment factors) in
perfect harmony.
sincerely
Michael J
2431 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now
Dear Michael,
thanks for the very nice letter. I was looking forwrd to your
replies sooner than later, but anytime is fine. Hope to see you
back sometime in the future.
Good luck on your phd.
Best wishes
Robert
--- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear
Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara
> and others
>
> With respect and good will to you all, I would like to wind
> down my
> participation in the list with a few more contributions that
> atttempt to
> tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old.
>
>
2432
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now
--- "Michael J Jackson" wrote:
> Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and
others
> Alex Tran
> I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3
years or more
> ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I
know how
> it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss
> contribute to deeper understanding and compassion.
Dear Michael J.,
I remember you, too. Your posts in those lists were always
excellent. Thank you for your thoughtful condolences. The loss of a
parent is always great no matter how "prepared" we are.
I'm looking forward to read more from you in the other lists.
With Metta,
Alex Tran
2433 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now
> Khun Amara
> Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't
> communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not
to
> respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we
would
> only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another.
Dear Michael J.,
I'm sorry you feel that way, I could only hope we might understand
each other better next time, should you decide to communicate with me
again. In the meantime I wish you all the best especially in your
studies and all other matters, (I still think you should get enough
rest and recuperation, especially after such hard work at the
conference and everything.) By the way I think the foundation
library hold some sets of the books you are looking for, if you
called them up someone might be able to tell you.
I hope you will send us the good news when you receive your doctorate
degree, at least, and anumodana for all the kusala you have done,
Amara
2434 From:
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 0:13am
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
Dear Robert and Bruce,
Robert wrote:
> This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
> is not given much attention in the texts.
Mind and it's interaction with matter is the province of
Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical phenomena is the
province of science.
2435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 5:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)
Dear dhd (or Dan if we may..).
I've been catching up with your posts with
interest...I'm so glad you and Bruce have joined us
with your interest in Abhidhamma.
Realities which can be experienced directly at this
moment are the province of Buddha-dhamma...In other
words the practice now of knowing (with panna) what is
experiencing and what is experienced over and over
again, in order that right understanding can develop
and eventually eradicate defilements.
While we can talk about and consider and speculate
about the complex conditions for the arising of other
phenomena (namas and rupas not being experienced) in
either scientific or non-scientific language it will
at best be interesting theory and speculation as you
have pointed out....
Nothing wrong with this at all, but the abhidhamma
details we study should be integrated with the
'practice' of bhavana or mental development at this
very moment. When the tree falls it is akusala vipaka
which is experienced through different doorways as you
have all pointed out....
Thanks for your line of enquiry,
Sarah
--- wrote: > Dear Robert and Bruce,
>
> Robert wrote:
> > This is not to say that the causes of mundane
> physical
> > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is
> something that
> > is not given much attention in the texts.
> Mind and it's interaction with matter is the
> province of
> Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical
> phenomena is the
> province of science.
>
2436 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 8:30pm
Subject: 'Abhidhamma' ch.3
Dear all,
Just to say that the third installment was uploaded today at
, intermediate section,
Amara
2437 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Gayan,
thanks for your consideration and comments on this
theme.
--- wrote: >
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past
> lives the people who were
> arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
> One interesting fact is they have observed the
> sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
> many times in previous buddhasasanas.
>
I'm sure the people on this list have also all been
monks in previous lives. The question is whether it
is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The
arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay
people and other beings too.
> Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very
> difficult, the aspirants must not be
> discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will
> certainly guide the 'person'
> towards the goal even it may not happen in the near
> future.
>
Really? Would you mind explaining this connection.
> The lay people may have more opportunities to study
> the dhamma, but those
> accumulations will give them the strength for
> renunciation in the future( may
> not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got
> the strength at present.
Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of
understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by
this.
>
> Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of
> the birth in human plane over
> uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the
> holylife can be observed
> there.
>
Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is
appropriate (see my post to Mike).
Best rgds too,
Sarah
2438 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
dear Mike,
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> If I understand this right, she's referring to
> clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'?
> Wasn't
> it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a
> table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi? Or was it
> Khun
> Sujin? Or did I misunderstand this altogether?
>
Just to clear up this point first...When we state our
preferences or cling to going left rather than right,
it is clinging to 'ourself', this very one we hold so
dear! This doesn't mean at all that there is wrong
view of self at these moments (although there might
be). Usually it's just clinging (to me)! While we were
away there was some discussion about 'mourning cittas'
on the list. I remember having it rightly pointed out
when I was rather distressed at Phra Dhammadharo's
funeral, that at these times we think the sadness is
for the loss of the other person, but in reality it's
just clinging to oneself....'my' loss of certain
sounds, sights, touches etc....
When we have the idea for a moment that I or a person
or a table or chair exists, it is sakkaya ditthi
(wrong view) at that moment. The concepts being
experienced are wrongly being taken for a reality.
You'll have heard this from KS, Nina and us all. It's
important to know the difference between moments of
clinging and moments of wrong view...
>
> True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS
> conditioned, in part, by your having been in the
> situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma
> countless times in the past.
Well, hearing and investigating now is certainly very
important ....in the beginning, middle and end..
I had a brief 'debate'
> with a very venerable monk once who held that the
> Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns. The Buddha
> certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently
> spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other
> secluded places. True, he was recommending these
> specifically to monks and also true that many, many
> householders attained nibbana while presumably
> living
> 'enjoying the pleasures of the five
> sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in
> town.
true and we need to be careful when reading suttas
where it seems the Buddha is praising secluded
places...Is he really and if so for whom and why? More
on this in a mo.
>
>
> Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence
> from
> the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently
> and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the
> assumption that listeners of the present age are
> beyond benefitting them. How how many of us, living
> completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on
> contention for the things of the world, completely
> surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements
> to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living
> alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala
> Sutta?
So yes, we need to look at the advice carefully and
with our little understanding of abhidhamma too. The
'living alone' is not a state or stage or practice to
be achieved as such. If just for a moment now, there
is awareness of one reality (let's say hardness)
appearing, then for a brief moment there is living
alone with hardness. All the busy, dusty world, all
those enticements and responsibilities do not exist.
Just the world through the bodysense appears and
exists at this moment. Gradually as more realities are
known, the meaning of living alone can be better
understood. Hardness in Hong Kong is no different from
hardness in Seattle and that harness is no different
from the hardness in the Thai forest! There is no easy
way or place to develop understanding.
> Not many, I think,
AGREED....whatever the lifestyle
> and I think the Buddha expressed
> this same idea each time he repeated the expression,
> "...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go
> forth from home into homelessness...". His praise
> of
> 'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only
> to
> specific individuals, it was quite general and very
> frequent. He usually seemed to be simply referring
> to
> this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca:
>
> "...A householder or householder's son, hearing the
> Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and
> reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty
> path.
> The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not
> easy living at home to practice the holy life
> totally
> perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What
> if
> I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the
> ochre
> robes, and go forth from the household life into
> homelessness?"
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html
>
Mike, thanks for the handy ref as always. I'm just
reading the sutta as I type now. As always, there are
many ways a sutta can be read and understood. I can't
say my way is the right way, but this is what I
understand as I read it.
just after the part you quote above it says:
'When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by
the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the
slightest faults. Consummate in his virtue, he guards
the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness
and alertness, and is content...'
As you say, the Buddha is speaking generally and to my
knowledge about those who are well able to follow all
the rules with contentment, to guard the sense doors
and are destined to become arahats (even if not in the
immediate lifetime) and can live this life easily. As
we know, arahats have to leave the household life..no
conditions at all to follow it because of no
defilements.
Lohica himself attains all jhanas with all the pwers
and then becomes an arahat....The Buddha understood
his accumulations and knew his understanding was
'ripe' for this. It was not by chance that he lived at
this time, met the Buddha, offered food and heard the
Teachings....
I don't understand from this sutta that the Buddha is
urging everyone to follow this lifestyle or even to
look for a a secluded or quiet place. Even as samatha
practice begins to develop, it is not necessary at all
to be in a secluded place.
> I think the most persuasive argument against
> ordaining
> now is the deteriorated states of both the
> bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general. It
> may
> be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome
> enough
> at this late date for benefit to be derived from
> ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven
> knows
> mine are no prize!). Once again, though, in the
> absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that
> 'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that,
> in
> general, it's a good thing to do.
>
> All of that said, I must tell you how much I
> appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments.
> They continue to condition investigation of the many
> motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is
> very useful.
Mike, please don't think I'm trying to say what is
best for you or anyone else...everyone will make their
'choices' according to conditions and their own
understanding anyway.
The Lohicca Sutta is really an excellent one for us
all to consider in this regard and it's interesting as
Robert has pointed out, how differently suttas can be
read according to the understanding of the time.
>
> Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back!
Thanks too... I'm glad to be back! Pls keep
questioning anything I say....!! I'm learning as I go
along here...
Sarah
2439 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 4:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now
Dear Michael,
--- Michael J Jackson wrote:
> Mike N.
> Thank you for your good will and gentle
> contributions to the e-mail list.
It's been a pleasure corresponding with you, sir.
Hope to hear from you again sometime!
mike
2440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 6:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
I'm really delighted to see all these great materials
going onto the website.
I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in
Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more
impact on my thinking and understanding than any other
book before or since when I first came across it. In
fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in
1975 of totally changing my understanding of the
'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a
combination of conditions, but this was the necessary
'trigger'!)
Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a
manual typewriter. Now it's beautifully presented for
easy reading on your website. Congratulations!
I have always found Nina's letters to be very helpful
too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these
for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna.
Sarah
p.s. It was super to see you both recently.
Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL
with me....a priceless gift!
--- amara chay wrote: >
> Dear all,
>
> We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of
> Nina VG's
> 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate
> section of
> . Other chapters will
> be coming soon,
> enjoy! Pinna is also preparing more of her letters
> for us, in the
> meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached
> p.56 out of 72pp.
> Anyone interested in the latter work in progress
> could please contact
> me off list,
>
> Amara
>
2441 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Khun Amara and Sarah,
I just have to echo Sarah's comments.
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
>
> I'm really delighted to see all these great
> materials
> going onto the website.
>
> I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in
> Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more
> impact on my thinking and understanding than any
> other
> book before or since when I first came across it.
Reading nearly every day now for 5? 6 weeks? and still
only to page 117--with a new (coarse, of course!)
insights in every chapter.
> In
> fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in
> 1975 of totally changing my understanding of the
> 'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a
> combination of conditions, but this was the
> necessary
> 'trigger'!)
Seems to've had the effect on you that meeting you all
has had on me...
> Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a
> manual typewriter.
I hope you, or someone, has preserved that
manuscript...
> Now it's beautifully presented
> for
> easy reading on your website. Congratulations!
Ditto!
> I have always found Nina's letters to be very
> helpful
> too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these
> for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna.
Many thanks to you all.
> Sarah
> p.s. It was super to see you both recently.
> Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL
> with me....a priceless gift!
Identical thanks to Robert!
mike
2442 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 3:44am
Subject: Hello all
Kia ora koutou (hello all),
I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha.
These are teachings of the Lord Buddha that are at my immediate
disposal. Having done so, I'll make some comments in its regards.
I believe this will be appropriate and productive for this forum,
rather then some of my other inquiries made so far.
The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited the
original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its purpose.
The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see
what other books Wisdom Publications have published.
Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the
serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as
sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start
any teachings translated into english would suffice. From
what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether
all teachings are in English.
I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also
compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the
the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one static
reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily accounts
of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of introspection
and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts
concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to
samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If
so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study?
That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody.
2443 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 8:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all
DEar Jody,
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > Kia ora
koutou (hello all),
>
> I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the
> Buddha.
> The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited
> the
> original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its
> purpose.
> The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see
> what other books Wisdom Publications have published.
They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
wisdom.
>
> Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the
> serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as
> sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start
> any teachings translated into english would suffice. From
> what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether
> all teachings are in English.
Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
>
> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can
> also
> compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote
> one static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
> or to stop clinging.
Vipassana is different from samattha.Why do you want to stop
"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking? very good
that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
but there are other aspects too.
Robert
2444 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 10:55am
Subject: emotions
I wrote to some one who is in new to buddhism and thought others
might be interested. The person wondered what emotions were and
whether they were real, she commented that they seem to cahnge
like the weather.
Robert:When I say emotions are not imaginary this doesn't mean
they are stable either. In fact, they change blindingly fast -
much quicker than the weather.
You are not Buddhist but that will not stop you from benefitting
from buddhism as the heart of Buddhism is actually a description
of things as they are. When I first met Buddhist teachings I
couldn't accept the idea of kamma and rebirth. Slowly I came to
see that every moment is conditioned by various factors and
that while it is all changing so rapidly it is not happening at
random, that ethical laws(kamma) are just as real as the laws of
nature that science knows. We are so moved by emotion but if we
learn to see them directly as they are, and see them as anatta,
not self, they lose their power over us.
One way to cope with emotions such as desire and anger is to
develop samattha meditation. This type of meditation, if
correctly developed, leads to calm and serenity and detachment
from objects of the 5senses. It was practised even before the
Buddha's time and has many benefits. Another way, the Buddha's
unique path, is to understand any dhammas (phenomena) as they
are and so detach from the idea of self and mine. In this way
one gradually stops minding about "my mind" and sees all
phenomena as fit objects to condition understanding, at any
time. From this perspective hate is just as useful as love
because they are simply changing moments, not me or mine.
This is putting it simply but as you may have gathered it is a
very profound matter; Buddhism aims to fully untangle the
knotted ball of life - and that takes time, effort and much
consideration of what the Buddha taught.
Robert
2445 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account
Mike
Thanks for your thoughtful comments on my report of
the discussion during the Cambodia trip.
Just to follow up on one or two of the points (in
addition to what Sarah has said in her post)
Pariyatti vs patipada
> This again is perfectly pertinent to our
> discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
> pariyatti, as this hadn't come up. The distinction
> (and the failure to distinguish) between these two
> also adds a dimension to the discussion. Though
> still
> most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
> regard to both?
Having the idea that what is pariyatti is in fact
patipada is an aspect of wrong view leading to wrong
practice, so its importance should not be
underestimated. Yes, it is useful to keep in mind
that all realities are anatta, but this of course is
at the thinking level (I mean the ‘keeping in mind’).
Thinking in concepts vs. wrong view of self
> Thanks, very useful. So the danger isn't in
> conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
> tanha, ditthi and/or mana? Or any other akusala, I
> suppose...
We may think that because we see the world in terms of
people and objects this means there is wrong view.
This can then be a condition to undertake forms of
‘practice’ which are designed to break down that
perception. So it is useful to understand the
distinction. We should not see thinking in concepts
as indicative of lack of understanding of the right
path.
Visible object as just that which appears through the
eye-door
> > - The fact that things still appear as
> > conceptualised
> > objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> > awareness of seeing or visible object.
>
> Simultaneously? So is this pariyatti? Awareness
> with
> concept? Of concept?
Sarah gave some comments on this point which I thought
put it well. Because the moments of awareness can be
weak and few and far between, its arising may not be
apparent. The other moments of concept (panyatti) may
predominate. So we may have a level of awareness and
not know it. Only later may it become apparent that
awareness and understanding have developed (remember
the simile of the adze handle?).
> Thanks for bringing it all back home...mike
I am glad you were able to appreciate it.
Jonothan
2446 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:24am
Subject: RE: Hello all
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all
DEar Jody,
They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
wisdom.
Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
___________________________
Hello, Robert,
Thanks, I'll look into it.
___________________________
Robert said:
Vipassana is different from samattha.
___________________________
I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by
the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha-
vipassana.
___________________________
Robert said:
Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking?
very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
but there are other aspects too.
Robert
___________________________
It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in
relation
to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are.
So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling
away
which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is comprehended
by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are
in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion.
The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity
to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the
compassion
of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of gaining
such wisdom.
Regards, Jody.
2447 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:00am
Subject: RE: emotions
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/23/00 3:55 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] emotions
Hello Robert,
It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as lately,
I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways.
That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that these
will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable,
but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is
appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds.
_____________________
Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional intelligence"
a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy
reading the works of this author.
_____________________
In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would
anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which
attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if possible,
which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would
like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of
"not-self" in all forms of communication.
The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an earlier email,
for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is choosing to
meditate,
practice, pay attention, etc. Which is obviously needed for a someone
used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of writing look like
which does not refer to a self?
Regards, Jody.
______________________
2448 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all
Dear Jody,
I really appreciate your input on the list.
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > -----
>
> Robert said:
> Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of
> controlling thinking?
> very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a
> whole is SELF
> but there are other aspects too.
>
> Robert
> ___________________________
>
>Jody: It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of
orienting to
> a "self" in
> relation
> to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things
> as they are.
> So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising
> and falling
> away
> which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is
> comprehended
> by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
>
> There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and
> rupa are
> in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control
> is illusion.
> The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate
> profundity
> to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to
> the
> compassion
> of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a
> means of gaining
> such wisdom.
___________________
Very good Jody -- It sounds like the wonder of the Buddha's
teaching is becoming apparent.
Robert
2449 From: selamat
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all
Dear Robert,
BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka of Abhidhamma?
anumodana.
selamat rodjali
dhamma study group bogor.
----- Original Message -----
From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 2:24 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all
>
> DEar Jody,
>
> They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
> I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
> translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
> wisdom.
>
> Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
> are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
> ___________________________
>
> Hello, Robert,
>
> Thanks, I'll look into it.
>
> ___________________________
>
> Robert said:
> Vipassana is different from samattha.
>
> ___________________________
>
> I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by
> the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha-
> vipassana.
>
> ___________________________
>
> Robert said:
> Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling
thinking?
> very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
> but there are other aspects too.
>
> Robert
> ___________________________
>
> It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in
> relation
> to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are.
> So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling
> away
> which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is
comprehended
> by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
>
> There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are
> in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion.
> The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity
> to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the
> compassion
> of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of
gaining
> such wisdom.
>
> Regards, Jody.
>
>
>
>
2450 From: selamat
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:52am
Subject:
Dear venerables & sirs,
Many years rise and fall
Many months rise and fall
Many days rise and fall
Many moments rise and fall
Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to conditions all.
May in the new year to come, we ever grow in the Dhamma.
Wish you, all, have a good health, mind and body.
mettacittena,
dhamma study group bogor
2451 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all
Dear Rodjali,
Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think
there is no English translation of the Yamaka.
For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to
offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a
20%discount on orders - a good deal.
Robert
--- selamat wrote: > Dear
Robert,
> BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka
> of Abhidhamma?
> anumodana.
>
> selamat rodjali
> dhamma study group bogor.
>
2452 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: emotions
> In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would
> anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which
> attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if
possible,
> which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would
> like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of
> "not-self" in all forms of communication.
Dear Jody,
Some laguages are more grammatically structured than others, which
would tend to be richer in descriptive adjectives and adverbs. But
even babies who had not acquired any sort of communicative abilities
have the concept of the self, even if they could not express it, as
in the most primitive life forms. That one does not mention the self
does not meant that one does not have that central being. Nor does
the understanding on the intellectual level mean that the attachment
to the self is eradicated, that has to come with a much higher
accumulation of the experiencing of the characteristics of things as
they really are. For example now we are communicating, it is only
the nama and rupa that are performing the actions, in reality. There
are seeing, touching, thinking, sight, hardness and motion,
temperature, concepts, all the different realities to be studied that
accumulate knowledge of the real characteristics of the realities
that arise to be experienced at this very instant, after which it
would be too late to study them as such. These tiny instants of
knowledge are automatically collected in the citta, by right
understanding, and when the full comprehension is reached, will
automatically reach the level of knowledge where there is no more
doubt ever again of that level of understanding.
Even at different stages of understanding, right up to the
realization of arahantship, up to the parinibbana, there would always
be the use of conventional terms and languages, as means of
communication. Even the Buddha had to communicate in concepts as
well, to indicate the meaning of his words whether he intended to
speak of himself or of others, even when he no longer distinguishes
between them as different sankhara, since he has eradicated all mana.
This does not mean that a person who never uses any sort of noun or
pronoun has eradicated even the concept of self or wrong view(e.g.
the sotapanna). In the end it does not matter what you say (as long
as it is right speech), but something that others could never be
able to tell in general, the mental state in which it was said, in
other words the cetana cetasika and therefore the citta that produced
the communication, even when one talks about the paramatthadhamma
(ultimate or absolute realities). And that only the person who is
performing the action could ever really know.
Again, thanks for the interesting questions, and anumodana in your
studies,
Amara
2453 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:39pm
Subject:
> Many years rise and fall
> Many months rise and fall
> Many days rise and fall
> Many moments rise and fall
>
> Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to
conditions all.
Dear Selamat and Bogor dhamma friends,
Thank you for the beautiful reminders and very kind wishes, may all
that Buddha intended in his teachings benefit you and everyone who
studies as well,
Anumodana with all the kusala,
Amara
2454 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 2:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Vernica
[Everyone - I have been going through some old
messages in my inbox. Apologies if I repeat something
that has already been said.]
--- wrote:
> I was wondering if there is any reason, other than
> "similar tastes"
> as you mention above, for one to study the
> Abhidhamma if everything
> one needs is already in the Suttas?
In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words
without the aid of the Abhidhamma. The same is not
true today. Without the AAbhidhamma, it would not be
apparent to us reading the suttas that when the Buddha
talks about, eg seeing, he was talking about a reality
that arises in a process of cittas, that is momentary,
that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, and
so on. Many of the realities memtioned in the suttas
can only be understood today with the aid of the
Abhidhamma.
So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather than
elective if we are to understand the teachings found
in the suttas.
Jonothan
2455 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...
Dhd5
--- wrote: > An uncle of mine died a
few weeks ago. Such events
> prompt sadness,
> which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS to
> be rooted in
> craving for something that isn't there, but
> Abhidhammatha Sangaha
> indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either
> pleasant or neutral.
> Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?
>
> I can see how aversion to the new conditions without
> the loved one
> might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more
> rooted in craving
> than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha
> correctly?
I think your reading of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha is
correct.
In this kind of situation there can be both cittas
rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and
cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the
dearly-held object arising, not exactly simultaneouly
but alternately.
The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that the
experience of realities as they are one at a time
requires vey highly developed panna.
Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience are
in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities
of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately
(one obvious example - nostalgia).
Jonothan
2456 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions
Dear Jody,
kia ora, and merry xmas!
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > -----> Hello
Robert,
>
> It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as
> lately,
> I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways.
> That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that
> these
> will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable,
> but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is
> appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds.
__________
Many levels to comprehending kamma and its results -- as you
indicate it is by understanding the moment that understanding,
and hence confidence in kamma grows.
>
> _____________________
>
> Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional
> intelligence"
> a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy
> reading the works of this author.
Thanks I'll keep it in mind.
>
> _____________________
>
> In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language.
> Would
> anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing
> which
> attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if
> possible,
> which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I
> would
> like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the
> principle of
> "not-self" in all forms of communication.
------------------
I think it is not so difficult to write without referring to
someone who is writing. What is hard is to see that there is
really no one. We all have different ways of assisting the
perception of not-self anatta-sañña, and this may be a good
reminder for you while writing.
I guess you have concluded that anatta is the lynchpin of
buddhism. Anumodana.
______________________>
> The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an
> earlier email,
> for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is
> choosing to
> meditate,
> practice, pay attention, etc.
____________
Obviously I don't know the book so possibly the writer could
genuinely perceive anatta. However, I have read so many books
and heard so many teachers speak that surely do not understand
anatta. I used to conclude that they had understanding but were
speaking and writing in such ways in order to express and
simplify the teachings. In later years I gathered enough courage
to question them thoroughly and found many who truly believed
in control. They would say that there is no self but then talk
about - just as you said above- choice, and having sati just by
concentrating, and the importance of intention(as if intention
was something controllable). It took me years to realise that
there are many misinterpretations of buddhism; you already
realise that talk of control and choice is likely to be
concealing atta, self. This is a level of real paññá and will
condition deeper levels.
________
Which is obviously needed for a
> someone
> used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of
> writing look like
> which does not refer to a self?
______
It would explain that there are only namas and rupas arising
that perform their functions according to their innate nature.
Perhaps it would indicate that there is no one controlling or
directing any of this, and that the rapidity of change and
perceiving things as a whole gives the illuison of self and
control. In short this type of writing is the Abhidhamma pitaka,
parts of the suttanata, and some of the attakattha. Still we can
refer to I and self and not have wrong view - it depends on the
understanding of the writer.
This is an old letter I wrote on this list which might interest
you:>>>>>>>>>>>Dear group,
I was reading over the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated
by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship).
Thought you might like to hear some passages related to our
recent discussion.
JUst to remind: there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear
comprehension)1puposefulness, 2suitabilty, 3resort, and
4non-delusion.
We have talked about the 4th one - amoha, panna, non-delusion.
The third one is also interesting - it has one meaning as
"clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for
example)" but also comprehending the resort of ones meditation
subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with
with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation
subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own
meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as
the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their
meditation subject in mind."
A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels
of meaning. Two- a definite distinction made between those who
are developing samattha and those who are developing only
vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements
or bases - paramattha dhammas).
The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is
understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks
ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead'
arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with
the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving
more and more details about mind processes, all to show that
there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned phenomena. This is
comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna.
Does hearing this condition any understanding now? Do you still
think that "you" chose to look at the email? Or does it help you
to see that conditioned by the thought (which was itself
conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed
the hand to push the correct buttons?
If it does condition understanding then is it some direct
understanding of the dhammas that are arising now, or is it it
at the level of thinking? Never mind - both types are needed -
they support each other.
On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in
doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is
deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it
carefully".
Robert
2457 From: selamat
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all
Dear Robert,
anumodana.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all
> Dear Rodjali,
> Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think
> there is no English translation of the Yamaka.
> For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to
> offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
> If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a
> 20%discount on orders - a good deal.
> Robert
> --- selamat wrote: > Dear
> Robert,
> > BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka
> > of Abhidhamma?
> > anumodana.
> >
> > selamat rodjali
> > dhamma study group bogor.
> >
2458 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 8:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions
Dear Robert, Jody et al.,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> In later years I gathered
> enough courage
> to question them thoroughly and found many who
> truly believed
> in control. They would say that there is no self but
> then talk
> about - just as you said above - choice, and having
> sati just by
> concentrating, and the importance of intention (as
if
> intention
> was something controllable).
This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that
it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy
to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion
of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta
out of plain old dosa...
The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is
MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically)
among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central
issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes
something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada
over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I'
can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I'
can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to
ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to
hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act*
in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the
eightfold path and attain liberation.
So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so
long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive
the credit)...!
Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises,
whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated,
whether dhammas are investigated or not, or
buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether
kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE
in the arising, or the cultivation, or the
investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking
or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be,
or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in
any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or
the other depending on how much of each has
accumulated.
I think that's why right effort is defined by its
outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to:
the going down of unskilled states already arisen;
the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen;
the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and
the continuation, development and perfection of
skilled states already arisen.
(sorry I can't cite the source of this translation)
No one choosing or intending in any of these--just
cause, and effect.
So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about
whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or
not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates
or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions,
internal and external, allow us to do, and not
otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated
for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and
not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just
wisdom at work--not 'us'.
Jody, I almost envy you your first reading of Majjhima
Nikaya--except that it just keeps getting better. I'm
really glad for you.
Everybody, I've touched on topics in this message that
I meant to do in response to several really thoughtful
posts in the past few weeks. I have 85 messages in my
'inbox' that I've kept, hoping to respond to them all
individually, and wonder now if I'll ever find the
time. I think I'll continue to try to keep up with
the new posts, and try to respond to the old ones as
time permits. If you're one of the many who hasn't
yet received a response, thanks for your patience, and
for your posts. They haven't been unappreciated.
mike
*Specifically on the kamma issue, I think this is the
(or at least one) big difference between kamma-rebirth
vs. sin-judgement and therefore a difficult hurdle for
ex-christians to jump. With the former, no one
reborn--just good or bad kamma accumulating and
producing inevitable results. With the latter,
someone eternal to be rewarded or punished--someone
who 'deserves', based on what? CHOICE.
2459
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 0:49pm
Subject: Re: emotions
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that
> it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
> level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy
> to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion
> of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta
> out of plain old dosa...
Dear Mike,
An excellent post. Thank you.
Anumodana,
Alex
2460 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 3:10pm
Subject: Choice (was emotions
Dear Mike,
Thanks for an excellent (repeating what alex said) post.
--- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- Robert
Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>
> > In later years I gathered
> > enough courage
> > to question them thoroughly and found many who
> > truly believed
> > in control. They would say that there is no self but
> > then talk
> > about - just as you said above - choice, and having
> > sati just by
> > concentrating, and the importance of intention (as
> if
> > intention
> > was something controllable).
______-
I should add to this. When I said intention is uncontrollable
this is true, however the fact remains that we do seem to have
choice over many things. I can choose to sit down now and
concentrate on the breath or subtle rupas in the body. I can
train myself to observe the way the different objects present
themselves at the senses doors also. What I might not see though
is that intention, cetana, arises with both kusala and akusala,
and that even when it arises with kusala it might not be
associated with samma-ditthi of the eightfactored path. When it
is realised that we can't avoid, actually, having intention I
think the subtlety of the path becomes plain. Sit very still
trying not to have any desire, but what of the (not so)subtle
desire that wants not to have desire. It is not that sitting
very still concentrating on something is wrong it is a rather
that what we need to do is become aware of even the most subtle
types of wrong practice; if we have an idea that only at certain
times, and in certain postures can we have wise attention then
we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong practice.
>_____________
> This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that
> it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
> level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy
> to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion
> of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta
> out of plain old dosa...
>
> The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is
> MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically)
> among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central
> issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes
> something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada
> over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I'
> can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I'
> can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to
> ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to
> hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act*
> in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the
> eightfold path and attain liberation.
>
> So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so
> long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive
> the credit)...!
______________
Yes, and it seems scary too, initially. To realise that 'we' are
not in control is deeply threatening to miccha-ditthi. Self view
has kept the round of birth and death going for an infinite
time, understanding about not control is piercing Mara through
the vital organs. Other spiritual activities, although very
kusala, can't lead out of samsara; anatta-sanna, even at the
beginning level, is an incomparable force.
___________
>
> Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises,
> whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated,
> whether dhammas are investigated or not, or
> buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether
> kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE
> in the arising, or the cultivation, or the
> investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking
> or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be,
> or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in
> any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or
> the other depending on how much of each has
> accumulated.
_________
This is right. It seems, then, that nothing can be done. And
indeed nothing can be done by "us". But wisdom develops because
there are conditions for it to develop; wisdom, (paññá
cetasika) not 'us' realises that hearing the Dhamma conditions
more paññá and detachment from self. This leads to more effort
to study, more effort to contemplate and more effort to apply,
and this is kusala intention; there is no one who intended.
____________
>
> I think that's why right effort is defined by its
> outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to:
>
> the going down of unskilled states already arisen;
> the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen;
> the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and
> the continuation, development and perfection of
> skilled states already arisen.
>
> (sorry I can't cite the source of this translation)
>
> No one choosing or intending in any of these--just
> cause, and effect.
>
> So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about
> whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or
> not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates
> or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions,
> internal and external, allow us to do, and not
> otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated
> for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and
> not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just
> wisdom at work--not 'us'.
___________________
Yes, and discussion is a helpful condition; hearing true Dhamma
conditions the questioning of old assumptions, the Dhamma- the
Buddha's words- is so powerful. Even someone who has no interest
in buddhism if they continue to hear and study will accumulate
more wisdom, if conditions allow this. Knowing this means we
become patient to speak again and again about Dhamma in order
for this process to continue.
Robert
2461 From:
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 5:29pm
Subject: New Comer
Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance become known. My
name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to be
said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for me, before
devouting any time and effort to try to discuss anything with me ;) I
currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism -- In a Shunryu
Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, inner and outer and
I work at a book store. Thats really all that my life contains, other
the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, weither it be a
blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank you, and Happy
holidays
2462 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 6:17pm
Subject: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'
Dear friends,
We have just finished uploading the translation of the booklet (about
20 short pages) that Khuns O and Kom mentioned earlier, in the
advanced section of . You might find it
easier than others in the section and if you do please tell us if we
should move it to the intermediate section.
Thanks in advance,
Amara
2463 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 6:37pm
Subject: Re: New Comer
> Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance become known. My
> name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to be
> said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for me, before
> devouting any time and effort to try to discuss anything with me ;)
I
> currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism -- In a Shunryu
> Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, inner and outer
and
> I work at a book store. Thats really all that my life contains,
other
> the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, weither it be a
> blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank you, and Happy
> holidays
Happy holidays and welcome!
Thanks for the introduction, it sounds so great, a Buddhist martial
arts student wielding a pen! Actually I took a few lessons in Aikido
myself a very long time ago, is it by any chance what you practice?
Looking forward very much to your contributions, Kyle!
Amara
2464 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer
Welcome, Kyle,
We have some history in common--many years ago, I was
a student of zen, (and an admirer of Shunryu Suzuki),
and of a southern style of Chinese wu-shu, and I
worked in books for many years.
So, though I don't think much about those things
anymore, and am a relative newcomer to this group
myself (not to mention an elementary student of
abhidhamma, at best) we may still have some common
ground for discussion.
Being glad that you've found this opportunity reminded
me of gladness itself. Do you know the Pali term,
'mudita'? Here's bhikku Khantipalo's definition, from
Access to Insight:
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html)
"Gladness (mudita) is to rejoice with others over
their success, gains, happiness. It overcomes the
grudging attitude to others, and the envy which may
arise on hearing of others' joy. It must show in one's
life as a spontaneous joy at the very time when one
learns that other people have some gain or other,
material or immaterial. It has the advantage of making
one open-hearted towards others, and does away with
secretiveness. A person who develops gladness attracts
many friends who are devoted to him, and with them and
others he lives in harmony. It is Lord Buddha's
medicine for envy and jealousy, which it can inhibit
completely. The two enemies of gladness are the merely
personal happiness of reflecting on one's own gains --
this is the "near" enemy; while the "far" one is
aversion to, or boredom with, this gladness."
Glad you found us, sir, and happy holidays to you,
too...mike
--- wrote:
> Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance
> become known. My
> name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to
> be
> said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for
> me, before
> devouting any time and effort to try to discuss
> anything with me ;) I
> currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism
> -- In a Shunryu
> Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts,
> inner and outer and
> I work at a book store. Thats really all that my
> life contains, other
> the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this,
> weither it be a
> blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank
> you, and Happy
> holidays
>
>
2465 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'
Dear Khun Amara,
--- amara chay wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> We have just finished uploading the translation of
> the booklet (about
> 20 short pages) that Khuns O and Kom mentioned
> earlier, in the
> advanced section of .
Thanks again for another fine contribution. There was
a line that made me a little curious:
"Those with faith in the Buddha would respectfully
worship and regularly recite mantra."
Is recitation a regular practice of Khun Sujin's? Are
there any particular reflections she recommends?
> You might find it
> easier than others in the section and if you do
> please tell us if we
> should move it to the intermediate section.
On this I don't feel entitled to an opinion.
Thanks as always, Ma'am...mike
2466 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:50am
Subject: Re: New Comer
> We have some history in common--many years ago, I was
> a student of zen, (and an admirer of Shunryu Suzuki),
> and of a southern style of Chinese wu-shu, and I
> worked in books for many years.
>
> So, though I don't think much about those things
> anymore, and am a relative newcomer to this group
> myself (not to mention an elementary student of
> abhidhamma, at best) we may still have some common
> ground for discussion.
>
> Being glad that you've found this opportunity reminded
> me of gladness itself. Do you know the Pali term,
> 'mudita'? Here's bhikku Khantipalo's definition, from
> Access to Insight:
>
> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html)
>
> "Gladness (mudita) is to rejoice with others over
> their success, gains, happiness. It overcomes the
> grudging attitude to others, and the envy which may
> arise on hearing of others' joy. It must show in one's
> life as a spontaneous joy at the very time when one
> learns that other people have some gain or other,
> material or immaterial. It has the advantage of making
> one open-hearted towards others, and does away with
> secretiveness. A person who develops gladness attracts
> many friends who are devoted to him, and with them and
> others he lives in harmony. It is Lord Buddha's
> medicine for envy and jealousy, which it can inhibit
> completely. The two enemies of gladness are the merely
> personal happiness of reflecting on one's own gains --
> this is the "near" enemy; while the "far" one is
> aversion to, or boredom with, this gladness."
Dear Mike,
I am glad I caught your post before going to bed. This is an
excellent reminder that kusala could arise more often than one thinks,
that if one were mindful, one could distinguish the very slight
differences between the often alternating realities of mudita and
normal everyday lobha. This is a very pleasant thought as well as a
useful truth, for which I thank you very much,
Anumodana with all the kusala,
Amara
2467 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:05am
Subject: Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
> There was
> a line that made me a little curious:
>
> "Those with faith in the Buddha would respectfully
> worship and regularly recite mantra."
>
> Is recitation a regular practice of Khun Sujin's? Are
> there any particular reflections she recommends?
Dear Mike,
I have never asked her about it but I think she recently mentioned
that she preferred to reflect alone to reciting in groups, and I
think she mentioned reflecting on the supreme benevolence and
beneficence of the Buddha for example. But I would think that if we
asked her she would simply say, don't copy. If you did it, it should
be more or less that you really felt like doing it, and not because
someone else does, I guess. In reality I think that a high
percentage of people do it just because of habit, or because of
lobha: they thought if they did they would get some good results or
even protection from evil. As always, it's the right understanding
that counts.
If you like I will ask her about it,
Amara
2468 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (was emotions
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> When I said intention is
> uncontrollable
> this is true, however the fact remains that we do
> seem to have
> choice over many things. I can choose to sit down
> now and
> concentrate on the breath or subtle rupas in the
> body. I can
> train myself to observe the way the different
> objects present
> themselves at the senses doors also.
Thanks for this balancing clarification. Part of what
I was aiming at (and failed to articulate) was that
what makes this such a fine point is the distinction
between recognizing (conceptually) that intention is
impersonal, and recognizing that good intention is
also indispensable. I guess what I'm saying is, that
it's easy to fall into a fatalistic view--'If there's
no 'I' to intend, then to hell with good
intention'--rather than to see that intention, good
and bad, is impersonal, but that right intention is
still essential to progress on any level--also
therefore sufficient understanding to distinguish
right intention from wrong. Coming from? As you
pointed out in an ealier post, hearing the dhamma and
direct insight into paramattha dhamma (I hope I'm
paraphrasing you accurately).
> What I might
> not see though
> is that intention, cetana, arises with both kusala
> and akusala,
> and that even when it arises with kusala it might
> not be
> associated with samma-ditthi of the eightfactored
> path. When it
> is realised that we can't avoid, actually, having
> intention I
> think the subtlety of the path becomes plain. Sit
> very still
> trying not to have any desire, but what of the (not
> so)subtle
> desire that wants not to have desire.
This is what I'm aiming at--recognizing that
intention, right or wrong, arises and subsides
according to conditions, rather than as the result of
'my' will or effort.
> It is not that
> sitting
> very still concentrating on something is wrong it is
> a rather
> that what we need to do is become aware of even the
> most subtle
> types of wrong practice; if we have an idea that
> only at certain
> times, and in certain postures can we have wise
> attention then
> we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong
> practice.
Surely.
> It seems, then, that nothing can be
> done. And
> indeed nothing can be done by "us". But wisdom
> develops because
> there are conditions for it to develop; wisdom,
> (paññá
> cetasika) not 'us' realises that hearing the Dhamma
> conditions
> more paññá and detachment from self.
Yes, my point, better-stated.
> This leads to
> more effort
> to study, more effort to contemplate and more effort
> to apply,
> and this is kusala intention; there is no one who
> intended.
Right!
> Yes, and discussion is a helpful condition; hearing
> true Dhamma
> conditions the questioning of old assumptions, the
> Dhamma- the
> Buddha's words- is so powerful. Even someone who has
> no interest
> in buddhism if they continue to hear and study will
> accumulate
> more wisdom, if conditions allow this. Knowing this
> means we
> become patient to speak again and again about Dhamma
> in order
> for this process to continue.
Yes, I for one can't hear these points, especially the
more slippery ones, often enough. Lots of competing
anusaya! MUCH more accumulation of these fine bits of
understanding is necessary if kusala is to win out in
the long run...mike
2469 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (was emotions
p.s.
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> if we have an idea that
> only at certain
> times, and in certain postures can we have wise
> attention then
> we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong
> practice.
...not to mention, right practice!
2470 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'
Dear Khun Amara,
--- amara chay wrote:
> --- "m. nease"
> wrote:
> But I would
> think that if we
> asked her she would simply say, don't copy.
I wouldn't be surprised, now you mention it! And this
'don't copy' is itself a good reflection--I
think--although for myself, I have to be careful of
copying 'not-copying', if you see what I mean.
Still, it does sound like she might be recommending
this.
> If you
> did it, it should
> be more or less that you really felt like doing it,
> and not because
> someone else does, I guess.
Well, that's sort of my question, really. I have done
this, on and off, for a long time, though not lately.
> In reality I think that
> a high
> percentage of people do it just because of habit, or
> because of
> lobha: they thought if they did they would get some
> good results or
> even protection from evil.
I think so too--isn't there a miccha-ditthi
specifically referring to belief in (the magical
efficacy of) rites and rituals?
It used to really bother me in the monastery, all the
puja, especially on uposatha days--it reminded me WAY
too much of sunday hymn-singing in christian churches.
> As always, it's the
> right understanding
> that counts.
Of course.
> If you like I will ask her about it,
Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any
merit to the question...
Thanks in advance...mike
2471 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
[from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the commentary to
Sammanaphala Sutta]
> "Clear comprehension of
> non-delusion here is
> understanding thus "internally there is no self
> which looks
> ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look
> ahead'
> arises, the mind -originated air element arises
> together with
> the thought, producing intimation..."
Interesting! Quite a nice glimpse of practical
abhidhamma...can you expand a little on 'intimation'
here?
> It carries
> on giving
> more and more details about mind processes, all to
> show that
> there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned
> phenomena.
Sorry, what is the 'It' that carries on?
> This is
> comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna.
Excellent, thanks, and in advance...
mike
2472 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> In this kind of situation there can be both cittas
> rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and
> cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the
> dearly-held object arising, not exactly
> simultaneouly
> but alternately.
Thanks for repeating this important point.
> The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
> rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that
> the
> experience of realities as they are one at a time
> requires vey highly developed panna.
Would it be correct to say that this is panyatti vs.
patipada? And would this resultant distincition be
pariyatti? Still trying to get a handle on these
terms.
> Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience
> are
> in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities
> of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately
> (one obvious example - nostalgia).
Thanks again. For those of us with no recollection of
direct insight into paramattha dhamma, this
understanding of the cause of the apparent blending of
dhammas helps to explain a lot.
mike
2474 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 3:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer
thank you very much Mike, for the definition. I am
always willing to learn that which I do not know, and
happy to admit that I know enough to know I know I
know nothing at all! :) and Amara, I have practiced a
few things. Aikido being one of them, I enjoy Aikido
and its philsophies, the unfortunate part is that I do
not like most of its teachers in my area!! So,
currently I practice Kenjutsu and Shito-Ryu Karate-Do.
Both with excellent and incredibly nice
Sensei/Teachers. I feel very blessed to have such
people imparting their experiences on me.
Speaking of this, I have a thought.
Many people have openly said that they believe a
Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the
capability of killing another human being if the
neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or
Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the
Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without
mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
trying to do the complete opposite. I would be very
interested in hearing some thoughts -- as to not taint
the discussion, I will give my opinion after a few
have filtered through :)
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2475 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Jonothan,
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> [Everyone - I have been going through some old
> messages in my inbox. Apologies if I repeat
> something
> that has already been said.]
I'm glad you did!
> In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
> understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words
> without the aid of the Abhidhamma.
Have people changed so much? The world of the Buddha
seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the
same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. That
they had the incomparable advantage of being directly
instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!)
is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, better
equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The
Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for
those who came from other religious traditions that
recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to
be in a minority), what advantage did those people
have over those of the present time?
> The same is not
> true today. Without the Abhidhamma, it would not
> be
> apparent to us reading the suttas that when the
> Buddha
> talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a
> reality
> that arises in a process of cittas, that is
> momentary,
> that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya,
> and
> so on.
Do you think this (detailed understanding) was
apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the
Buddha's time? This doesn't seem obvious to me from
the suttas. In fact, it isn't clear from my reading
of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear,
detailed understanding of every last minute detail of
abhidhamma. In fact, was this detailed understanding
a necessary condition or component of nibbana? Or was
sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to
break the chain of conditioned origination?
> Many of the realities mentioned in the
> suttas
> can only be understood today with the aid of the
> Abhidhamma.
>
> So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather
> than
> elective if we are to understand the teachings found
> in the suttas.
I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious.
I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit of:
(a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html
In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed
skepticism, with the reference constantly returning to
self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so is
pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada (if
I understand this term correctly). So, to to the
extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant
insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the
declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is
necesary rather than elective if we are to understand
the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet this
criterion.
The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the
suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed
understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a
prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being
dhammavinaya. So this argument still seems dependent
on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people
were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the
Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' and
'The same is not true today.' Since this is not
verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see
more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the
suttas.
and (b) of the Four Great References of the
Maha-Parinibbana Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html.
"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a
bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor
with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but
carefully studying the sentences word by word, one
should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by
the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the
Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must
conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed
One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that
bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders,
or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should
reject it. But if the sentences concerned are
traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly,
this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been
well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that
community, or by those elders, or by that elder..."
Again, we could accept the above declarations (only)
to the extent that they can be verified by the
discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the
discourses.
Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to gainsay
anything I've learned from this group. In fact, even
without satisfactory answers to these questions, I
certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as
I've been introduced to it here. 'My' understanding
of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think
improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've
received and hope to continue to receive here.
Still, I think that answers to these questions which
satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great value
to us and especially to those who are skeptical of
this third of the tipitaka.
Sincere thanks for your patient consideration...
mike
2477 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
>Have people changed so much? The world of the Buddha
seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the
same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. That
they had the incomparable advantage of being directly
instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!)
is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, better
equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The
Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for
those who came from other religious traditions that
recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to
be in a minority), what advantage did those people
have over those of the present time?
<<
Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
how much there was out there to want.
I think the uninstructured had a very good
understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
than most students of Buddhism do today!!
The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
I do not know what is. :)
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2478 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 6:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions
See my comments below:
_______
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert,
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>
> [from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the commentary to
> Sammanaphala Sutta]
>
> > "Clear comprehension of
> > non-delusion here is
> > understanding thus "internally there is no self
> > which looks
> > ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look
> > ahead'
> > arises, the mind -originated air element arises
> > together with
> > the thought, producing intimation..."
>
> Interesting! Quite a nice glimpse of practical
> abhidhamma...can you expand a little on 'intimation'
> here?
>_______
"intimation" the english translation of kaya-viññati, physical
intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter conditioned by
citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually akara-vikara(a
particular position or set of other rupas. Akara- vikara:
alteration of the mode. It is through bodily movements that the
citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible object the
citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes known the
citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta. This is
quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be said about
it. There is no self anywhere in this process of movement,
nothing lasting.
, an
> > It carries
> > on giving
> > more and more details about mind processes, all to
> > show that
> > there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned
> > phenomena.
>
> Sorry, what is the 'It' that carries on?
________
The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more details.
Robert
2479 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 6:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer
Dear Kyle,
welcome to the discussion group.
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > thank you very
>
>
> Many people have openly said that they believe a
> Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the
> capability of killing another human being if the
> neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or
> Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the
> Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without
> mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
> in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
> trying to do the complete opposite. I would be very
> interested in hearing some thoughts -- as to not taint
> the discussion, I will give my opinion after a few
> have filtered through :)
The sakyyans, the Buddha's relatives were noted and feared
warriors. Because of their enormous acumulations countless
thousands of them became ariya-puggala, attained stages of
enlightenment. This meant they could no longer kill.
Nevertheless they continued on with their skill in fighting and
warfare. They were attacked by a prince who had a grudge against
one who had called him the son of a slavewoman (which he was).
In the initial stages of the battle the sakkyans demonstrated
their skill with bowmanship to such extent that the other army
fled. However the advisor to this prince explained that these
sakkyans do not kill "note that their arrows are passing between
the men, not hitting them". The prince informed his men of this
and they went back and slaughtered the sakkyanas at will.
Until we are enlightened we may kill if conditions are
favourable; but even a sotapanna (firsat stage of enlightenment)
might train in martial arts.
I know some of Khun sujin's students who are Generals in the
thai army.
robert
2480 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer
Thank you! this is very enlightening information!! :)
I also believe that until the entire human race
becomes "Aware" and becomes a Buddha, that the need to
protect ones self will be as much apart of life as
anything else!
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2481 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Mike,
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Jonothan,
>
> --- > Have people changed so much? The world of the Buddha
> seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the
> same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. That
> they had the incomparable advantage of being directly
> instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!)
> is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, better
> equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The
> Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for
> those who came from other religious traditions that
> recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to
> be in a minority), what advantage did those people
> have over those of the present time?
______
How many these days do you know like Bahiya who upon one short
discourse became arahants, there and then. Or like khema, the
queen who didn't want to meet the Buddha but at her first
meeting also became an arahant? or sariputta, moggalana,
anathapindika, and so many others who simply while listening
became enlightened. Coincidence? Well we listen to exactly the
same words as enlightened them- it is not that they have magic
power because an arahant spoke them. As a reference I gave a
while back showed if a teacher repeats the buddhas teaching
correctly even though he is not enlightened his students can
become enlightened.
The attakattha suggests(I can find references if you really
have doubts about this)that the further away from the time of a
buddha one is born the harder it becomes. These days many find
it difficult to distinguish right theory from wrong, let alone
going deeper.
----------
>
> > The same is not
> > true today. Without the Abhidhamma, it would not
> > be
> > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the
> > Buddha
> > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a
> > reality
> > that arises in a process of cittas, that is
> > momentary,
> > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya,
> > and
> > so on.
>
> Do you think this (detailed understanding) was
> apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the
> Buddha's time? This doesn't seem obvious to me from
> the suttas. In fact, it isn't clear from my reading
> of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear,
> detailed understanding of every last minute detail of
> abhidhamma. In fact, was this detailed understanding
> a necessary condition or component of nibbana? Or was
> sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to
> break the chain of conditioned origination?
______________
Paññá (wisdom) needs conditions to accumulate. There were those
like moggalana who could become enlightened so quickly, without
details in this life. They had listened to many Buddhas in the
past. They had been accumulating paññá for more than a hundred
thousand aeons. Anyone who thinks they can just hear a little
and that is sufficient to condition deep insight does not see
what paññá is and the conditions for its arising. The
netti-pakarana say that for those who are slow (neyya) the
Buddha taught the details. At this time there are only neyya and
padaparama(very, very slow). There are no longer the fast ones-
this is stated in the attakattha.
>
> > Many of the realities mentioned in the
> > suttas
> > can only be understood today with the aid of the
> > Abhidhamma.
> >
> > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather
> > than
> > elective if we are to understand the teachings found
> > in the suttas.
>
> I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious.
> I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit of:
>
> (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas:
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html
>
> In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed
> skepticism, with the reference constantly returning to
> self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so is
> pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada (if
> I understand this term correctly). So, to to the
> extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant
> insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the
> declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is
> necesary rather than elective if we are to understand
> the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet this
> criterion.
>
> The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the
> suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed
> understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a
> prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being
> dhammavinaya. So this argument still seems dependent
> on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people
> were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the
> Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' and
> 'The same is not true today.' Since this is not
> verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see
> more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the
> suttas.
>
> and (b) of the Four Great References of the
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta:
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html.
>
> "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a
> bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor
> with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but
> carefully studying the sentences word by word, one
> should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by
> the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the
> Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must
> conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed
> One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that
> bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders,
> or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should
> reject it. But if the sentences concerned are
> traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
> Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly,
> this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been
> well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that
> community, or by those elders, or by that elder..."
>
> Again, we could accept the above declarations (only)
> to the extent that they can be verified by the
> discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the
> discourses.
>
> Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to gainsay
> anything I've learned from this group. In fact, even
> without satisfactory answers to these questions, I
> certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as
> I've been introduced to it here. 'My' understanding
> of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think
> improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've
> received and hope to continue to receive here.
>
> Still, I think that answers to these questions which
> satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great value
> to us and especially to those who are skeptical of
> this third of the tipitaka.
--------------
You might not find this specifically mentioned in the suttas-
but it is part of the earliest tradition as passed on in the
attakatha(commentaries). The foolish will always want to argue
this point- even if it is was in a sutta they will say
the sutta is wrong.
The buddha said (in a sutta)that in the future the deep
teachings about the void will be neglected. The entire
abhidhamma has one flavour, the flavour of anatta, of voidness
of self.
Robert
2482 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > >Have people
changed > <<
>
>
> Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> how much there was out there to want.
The pali texts, (maybe in the apadana), say that prince
siddhattha had 80,000 wives and concubines, all of them
beautiful. Considering the auspicious times probably much more
beautiful than woman of this era. What would you have more
desire for, half-naked woman at your beck and call or the
trinkets we now have such as cars and refigerators?
Robert
2483 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Of course, just like in any text, buddhist, christian
or hindu. No text can be taken at face value... Most
are mere myth's, or exagurations. I am sure he had
many wives, but 80,000? I am not to sure... :) and
truthfully, once someone has sex/makes love so many
times, it can become bland, so.. I would say if I were
him, that he would get very tired of women and go
towards trinkets and such as well
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2484 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
I appreciate your keenness in writing Kyle.
Say we agree that most buddhist texts are 'mere myths or
exaggerations' - does everyone on this list take that to be the
case by the way?- and he had say 20 wives only. It is not just
the sex, they washed his clothes, fed him delicious food, and
much more. I know a friend who only has one wife and yet when
she left him it almost drove him crazy. he worked like a dog to
support her yet would have gladly given up his car and other
things to get her back. Desire finds objects whatever they are.
king mongut of thailand was a monk for 27 years, very strict
about vinaya, he lived a celibate life until age 47. After that
until his untimely death he managed to sire 55 or more children
by different wives.
Another point is that sense-desires are only one part of
upadana-atachment, a spoke on paticcasamupada(dependent
origination). There are clingings also to wrongview, and these
are just as sinister. Have you ever met cult people? Some of
them live lives of austerity, swearing away from modern
inventions; but try to get them to give up their beliefs...
Robert
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Of course,
just like in any text, buddhist, christian
> or hindu. No text can be taken at face value... Most
> are mere myth's, or exagurations. I am sure he had
> many wives, but 80,000? I am not to sure... :) and
> truthfully, once someone has sex/makes love so many
> times, it can become bland, so.. I would say if I were
> him, that he would get very tired of women and go
> towards trinkets and such as well
>
> =====
>
> The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not
> Descend...
>
> and nothing is truly lost.
>
>
2485 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'
Dear Amara,
thanks I would appreciate some clarification here too. I haven't
heard Khun sujin recommending the recitation of mantras before.
Robert
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Khun Amara,
>
> --- amara chay wrote:
> > Of course.
>
> > If you like I will ask her about it,
>
> Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any
> merit to the question...
>
> Thanks in advance...mike
>
2486 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
The desire for things includes the desire to be waited
upon and loved, even if falsly. Any desire really
falls under that distraction... But -- There were far
less distractions in Sidharttha's age than there are
today. I mean imagine, Computers, Cars, Money, Drugs,
Movies, books, Etc. Etc. Its just the point in fact
that when *one* thing distracts you, you at least can
focus on it and try to break away, when many things
distract you, you can break one, but there will always
be another to lure you back in.
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2487 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
So we see how hard it is to give up sense desire. The ancients,
those who lived before the Buddha, knew this and developed
samattha (concentration meditation)so as to surmount sense
desire completely, for the time that the conditions for samattha
existed. The buddha's path, vipassana, (vi-special,
passana-seeing,) was one that eliminated ignorance about all
objects including desire. I think it is not so much a way of
retreat from desire, as a way of understanding; and that
understanding learns to see that there is no one who is having
desire or not having desire, no one, too, who is being
distracted.
Robert
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > The desire for
things includes the desire to be waited
> upon and loved, even if falsly. Any desire really
> falls under that distraction... But -- There were far
> less distractions in Sidharttha's age than there are
> today. I mean imagine, Computers, Cars, Money, Drugs,
> Movies, books, Etc. Etc. Its just the point in fact
> that when *one* thing distracts you, you at least can
> focus on it and try to break away, when many things
> distract you, you can break one, but there will always
> be another to lure you back in.
>
> =====
>
> The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not
> Descend...
>
> and nothing is truly lost.
>
>
2488 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'
> And this
> 'don't copy' is itself a good reflection--I
> think--although for myself, I have to be careful of
> copying 'not-copying', if you see what I mean.
Dear Mike,
Excellent point, too!
> Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any
> merit to the question...
Will do, report,
Amara
2489 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:50am
Subject: Re: New Comer
> and Amara, I have practiced a
> few things. Aikido being one of them, I enjoy Aikido
> and its philsophies,
> Many people have openly said that they believe a
> Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the
> capability of killing another human being if the
> neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or
> Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the
> Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without
> mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
> in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
> trying to do the complete opposite.
Dear Kyle,
I probably preferred Aikido over all the others because of many
reasons, the first being possibly as you mentioned, the philosophy is
somewhat different from other regimes', at least as it was taught to
me. At that time the founder was still alive but very old, unless he
is still there thirty odd years later (is he still with us?!), and
the person who taught me was the youngest of his seven pupils who
were senseis. He said then that it was purely defensive, in that the
main strategy is to use the opponents' own strength and actions
against them, so that attacking party is always open to these
defensive actions that should lead to control over the situation.
The movements themselves stress economy of energy, always circular
and smooth, like classical ballet to me, and never counter the flow
of the attacking party, simply redirecting it to your own advantage.
And you never use brute strength and stay as far away from your
opponents as your reach allows, which means that a very small, weak
person would not be overpowered by weight and physical strength as
for example in judo, or even Taekwando. Of course this does not mean
it cannnot be used in a harmful way, in the end it is still the
cetana cetasika that counts.
Still, to say that '"Kill your opponent without
> mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
> in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
> trying to do the complete opposite.' is not being absolutely true,
as you must know. I would rather think it would be defend youself as
best you can without harming others, through all kusala means:
wherever possible, could we reason with them with kindness, since the
harm they intend might not happen to you because it is not your
vipaka at that instant, but would surely bring the intended result on
themselves one day? I used not to understand when Khun Sujin said we
should pity wrong doers but have since come to understand that they
are harming themselves most of all, whether they succeed in harming
others or not. If you could make everyone see this there would be no
more need for martial arts except perhaps as art form!
I hope you find something useful in this discussion, for my part I
have at least enjoyed it very much, and reminded me of the dhamma as
well,
Amara
2490 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
> Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> how much there was out there to want.
Dear Kyle,
I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the object of
lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the Crown Prince
had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed skill when
his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth birthday.
His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, his
wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections. No matter the age
or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes of the
senses) could only perceive or experience things only through the six
dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we cling to so
passionately appear to us only through these senses, no matter how
complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even our useful
computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva worlds,
since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka (result of
kamma) of good past kamma. Yet devas have come to listen to the
Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although generally
they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of kusala in
their worlds.
> I think the uninstructured had a very good
> understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
> A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
> than most students of Buddhism do today!!
Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside! Witness the very busy
schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate the
rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas could
arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed of light.
> The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
> very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
> he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
> an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
> I do not know what is. :)
If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without
instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long
period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since
he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you could read
about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles,
'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced
section of .
Enjoy,
Amara
2491 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Amara,
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu !
Metta,
Leonardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "amara chay"
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 2:26 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
>
> > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> > that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> > how much there was out there to want.
>
>
> Dear Kyle,
>
> I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the object of
> lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the Crown Prince
> had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed skill when
> his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth birthday.
> His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, his
> wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections. No matter the age
> or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes of the
> senses) could only perceive or experience things only through the six
> dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we cling to so
> passionately appear to us only through these senses, no matter how
> complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even our useful
> computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva worlds,
> since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka (result of
> kamma) of good past kamma. Yet devas have come to listen to the
> Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although generally
> they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of kusala in
> their worlds.
>
>
> > I think the uninstructured had a very good
> > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
> > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
> > than most students of Buddhism do today!!
>
>
> Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside! Witness the very busy
> schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate the
> rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas could
> arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed of light.
>
>
> > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
> > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
> > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
> > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
> > I do not know what is. :)
>
>
> If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without
> instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long
> period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since
> he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you could read
> about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles,
> 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced
> section of .
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Amara
2492 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Ahh! My thanks for the links! :)
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2493 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:52pm
Subject: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
Dear Friends,
When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some
arrangements so that anyone from this list can obtain
tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) and
copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin that
have been printed in Bangkok.
If you would like to order tapes or books for personal
use from the Foundation in Bangkok (the centre where
Khun Sujin teaches), send your request to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100248102098204051043041114242049205015143149 cc: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=230059219009194116170218159119129253098048149219
specifying the titles (for books) and dates of
discussion (for tapes) you would like. Please make
sure you give your name and postal address exactly as
it should appear on the package.
Costs have all been covered in advance.
The editing & copying of tapes and sending of tapes
and books is done by volunteers in their spare time,
so please expect delays!
Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could post
the titles of books available.
Jonothan & Sarah
2494 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...
Mike
> > The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
> > rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that
> > the
> > experience of realities as they are one at a time
> > requires vey highly developed panna.
>
> Would it be correct to say that this is panyatti vs.
> patipada? And would this resultant distincition be
> pariyatti? Still trying to get a handle on these
> terms.
The term ‘panyatti’ (concept) can be used in
contradistinction to ‘paramattha dhamma’ (absolute
reality/fundamental phenomena). As often discussed on
this list, we live in a world of concepts (mere
constructs of the mind), oblivious to the true nature
of the realities of the moment. We take people and
things as being the reality of the present moment as
experienced.
The distinction is indeed important. Paramattha
dhammas can be the object of sati (awareness) and
panna (wisdom), but panyatti cannot.
‘Pariyatti’ and ‘pa.tipatti’ [I have been using the
wrong term – apologies] refer to different levels of
understanding. ‘Pariyatti’ is understanding at an
intellectual level, while ‘patipatti’ is knowing by
direct experience, as when sati and panna of the level
of satipatthana arise.
There is also a third level under this classification,
namely ‘pa.tivedha’ meaning penetration, realisation.
This refers to the moment of experience of nibbana.
I hope this helps clarify these terms.
Jonothan
2495 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Kyle,
Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response.
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote:
> Well, if we put it in perspective. People have
> changed
> alot, they have grown more impatient, they have
> grown
> more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger.
> So,
> We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> how much there was out there to want.
Your points are interesting and well-taken. Life is
certainly much more complicated now than it was
then...
> I think the uninstructured had a very good
> understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> superficial parts of religion. But by actually
> DOING.
> A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> understanding of meditation as he moved along
> quietly,
> than most students of Buddhism do today!!
...and maybe concentration was much easier to
develop...
> The best example of an uninstructed individual who
> is
> very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> religions, but... that does not mean that any of
> those
> he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> instruction.
That is true, he certainly was samma sambuddho,
rightly self-awakened.
> By simply living -- now, if that is not
> an example of the uninstructed reaching great
> levels,
> I do not know what is. :)
I wouldn't call the Buddha's path 'simply living',
though maybe you mean something by this that I don't
understand. At any rate, though there are plenty of
good reasons to speculate that understanding of the
dhammavinaya was more accessible to people of that
time, what I'm really looking for is confirmation from
the sutta-pitaka that this is not speculation, but in
keeping with dhamma-vinaya.
Thanks again for your thoughtful comments--I look
forward to hearing more...
mike
2496 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> "intimation" the english translation of
> kaya-viññati, physical
> intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter
> conditioned by
> citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually
> akara-vikara(a
> particular position or set of other rupas. Akara-
> vikara:
> alteration of the mode. It is through bodily
> movements that the
> citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible
> object the
> citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes
> known the
> citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta.
> This is
> quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be
> said about
> it. There is no self anywhere in this process of
> movement,
> nothing lasting.
This is absolutely fascinating. Since encountering
abhidhamma, I've focused only on nama--I'd forgotten
that I know next to nothing about rupa. A lot more
interesting study ahead...
> The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more
> details.
I think this is available from BPS, maybe Zolag--I'll
have a look and get back to you. Would you suggest
this as a good place to start to understand rupa in
general?
Thanks again...mike
2497 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions
dear Mike,
Many useful details in the atthasalini,(the expositor) also Nina
van gorkom's book -"Rupas"- available for free download from
Zolag.http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupf.pdf is excellent. Rupa-khanda
needs to be comprehended, learning more details is most
advantageous.
robert
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert,
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>
> > "intimation" the english translation of
> > kaya-viññati, physical
> > intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter
> > conditioned by
> > citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually
> > akara-vikara(a
> > particular position or set of other rupas. Akara-
> > vikara:
> > alteration of the mode. It is through bodily
> > movements that the
> > citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible
> > object the
> > citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes
> > known the
> > citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta.
> > This is
> > quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be
> > said about
> > it. There is no self anywhere in this process of
> > movement,
> > nothing lasting.
>
> This is absolutely fascinating. Since encountering
> abhidhamma, I've focused only on nama--I'd forgotten
> that I know next to nothing about rupa. A lot more
> interesting study ahead...
>
> > The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more
> > details.
>
> I think this is available from BPS, maybe Zolag--I'll
> have a look and get back to you. Would you suggest
> this as a good place to start to understand rupa in
> general?
>
> Thanks again...mike
>
2498 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> How many these days do you know like Bahiya who upon
> one short
> discourse became arahants, there and then. Or like
> khema, the
> queen who didn't want to meet the Buddha but at her
> first
> meeting also became an arahant? or sariputta,
> moggalana,
> anathapindika, and so many others who simply while
> listening
> became enlightened.
None at all...
> Coincidence? Well we listen to
> exactly the
> same words as enlightened them- it is not that they
> have magic
> power because an arahant spoke them. As a reference
> I gave a
> while back showed if a teacher repeats the buddhas
> teaching
> correctly even though he is not enlightened his
> students can
> become enlightened.
> The attakattha suggests (I can find references if
> you really
> have doubts about this) that the further away from
> the time of a
> buddha one is born the harder it becomes. These days
> many find
> it difficult to distinguish right theory from wrong,
> let alone
> going deeper.
O.K...
> Paññá (wisdom) needs conditions to accumulate.
> There were those
> like moggalana who could become enlightened so
> quickly, without
> details in this life. They had listened to many
> Buddhas in the
> past. They had been accumulating paññá for more
> than a hundred
> thousand aeons. Anyone who thinks they can just hear
> a little
> and that is sufficient to condition deep insight
> does not see
> what paññá is and the conditions for its arising.
> The
> netti-pakarana say that for those who are slow
> (neyya) the
> Buddha taught the details. At this time there are
> only neyya and
> padaparama
[that would be me...!]
> (very, very slow). There are no longer the
> fast ones-
> this is stated in the attakattha.
> You might not find this specifically mentioned in
> the suttas-
> but it is part of the earliest tradition as passed
> on in the
> attakatha(commentaries). The foolish will always
> want to argue
> this point- even if it is was in a sutta they will
> say
> the sutta is wrong.
Well, I'm no rocket scientist myself, but I DON'T want
to argue this point...
> The buddha said (in a sutta)that in the future the
> deep
> teachings about the void will be neglected. The
> entire
> abhidhamma has one flavour, the flavour of anatta,
> of voidness
> of self.
Certainly! and thanks for this detailed and
thoughtful response. It's really very helpful.
mike
2499 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:53pm
Subject: Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
> When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some
> arrangements so that anyone from this list can obtain
> tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) and
> copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin that
> have been printed in Bangkok.
Dear Sarah and Jonothan,
Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I did not know you had arranged for
the books as well as tapes, the latter you announced even before you
came to Bkk, I think. This is great, I have also printed out
Robert's suggestions for Khun Sujin, about regular packages to Burma,
although she hasn't said anything to me. Perhaps Robert should also
follow up with her on this.
Anumodana with all the kusala cetana,
Amara
2500 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 1:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> What would you
> have more
> desire for, half-naked women at your beck and call
> or the
> trinkets we now have such as cars and refigerators?
You have a point! A terrifying thought...
mike
2501 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Robert and Kyle,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> I appreciate your keenness in writing Kyle.
> Say we agree that most buddhist texts are 'mere
> myths or
> exaggerations' - does everyone on this list take
> that to be the
> case by the way?-
Not at all.
> and he had say 20 wives only. It
> is not just
> the sex, they washed his clothes, fed him delicious
> food, and
> much more. I know a friend who only has one wife and
> yet when
> she left him it almost drove him crazy. he worked
> like a dog to
> support her yet would have gladly given up his car
> and other
> things to get her back.
This reminded me of Sean Whittle's wonderful
translation of Pariyadaya Sutta. Hope you don't mind
if I reprint it here:
Pariyadaya sutta - Overpowering
AN I.1-10
1. Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Blessed
One was living in
Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery.
At that time he
addressed the monks: "Monks!"
"Yes, venerable sir."
"Monks, I do not see any other form that is more
overpowering, to the mind
of a man, than a woman's form. Monks, a woman's form
is overpowering to the
mind of a man."
2. "Monks, I do not see any other voice that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's voice. Monks, a woman's
voice is overpowering
to the mind of a man."
3. "Monks, I do not see any other smell that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's smell. Monks, a woman's
smell is overpowering
to the mind of a man."
4. "Monks, I do not see any other taste that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's taste. Monks, a woman's
taste is overpowering
to the mind of a man."
5. "Monks, I do not see any other touch that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's touch. Monks, a woman's
touch is overpowering
to the mind of a man."
6. "Monks, I do not see any other form that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's form. Monks, a man's
form is overpowering to
the mind of a woman."
7. "Monks, I do not see any other voice that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's voice. Monks, a man's
voice is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."
8. "Monks, I do not see any other smell that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's smell. Monks, a man's
smell is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."
9. "Monks, I do not see any other taste that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's taste. Monks, a man's
taste is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."
10. "Monks, I do not see any other touch that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's touch. Monks, a man's
touch is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."
One of the things I find so admirable about the Buddha
is that he had experienced sense-pleasures to the
maximum, and was still able to relinquish them. I
honestly doubt I would have been able to give up even
half so pleasant a life.
> Desire finds objects
> whatever they are.
> king mongut of thailand was a monk for 27 years,
> very strict
> about vinaya, he lived a celibate life until age 47.
> After that
> until his untimely death he managed to sire 55 or
> more children
> by different wives.
> Another point is that sense-desires are only one
> part of
> upadana-atachment, a spoke on
> paticcasamupada (dependent
> origination). There are clingings also to wrongview,
> and these
> are just as sinister.
If not more so. Anyway, pancupadanakhanda is really
the issue, isn't it...
> Have you ever met cult people?
> Some of
> them live lives of austerity, swearing away from
> modern
> inventions; but try to get them to give up their
> beliefs...
Not to mention a lot of Buddhist monks...
mike
2502 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
Dear Sarah, Jon, Khun Amara et al.,
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some
> arrangements so that anyone from this list can
> obtain
> tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English)
> and
> copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin
> that
> have been printed in Bangkok.
Excellent news!
Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the tapes
Robert sent me: I still haven't overcome the
technological hurdles to getting these onto the web.
As it turns out, the sound card needed to run the
software to re-master the recordings is not compatible
with my computer. I think the answer will be a new
computer, so it may be a little while yet. I'll keep
you posted...
> Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could post
> the titles of books available.
Yes, please! And thanks again...
mike
2503 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...
Jonathan,
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> I hope this helps clarify these terms.
It certainly does--thanks very much.
mike
2504 From:
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:13pm
Subject: Punnanumodana
dear Mike sir
I received your dhamma dana on christmas day.
{Mulapariyaya sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi}
May this punna kamma be a condition for the attaining of nibbana,
May this punnakamma condition the company of Kalyana friends
Rgds.
2505 From:
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear friends,
Talking about people who lived in the past,
I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from the present.
On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the tipitaka and other
texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that we can observe ,
feel, do or read nowadays.
Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people are a thousandfold
greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient texts suggest
otherwise.
On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage stories in texts
which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we now see and observe.
- The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid murderers.
- The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young women ( think of
the tabloid headlines)
- a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered by 'unidentified
gangsters'.
-Competition and business interests had lead to many unpleasant scenarios...
We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of human mind , but they
are the same old fabrications .
Regds
2506 From:
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Sarah,
As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of understanding, and that
gives power and strength.
This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca bala 'five powers', as
saddha bala, etc........
You have questioned whether this is the appropriate time to enter the monkhood,
I assume that this is regarding the declining standard of the monk life observed
all over the world.
Months earlier in this group we talked about this topic, and members talked
about how aversion comes into play in their minds when they see misbehaving
monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is complaining about dosa..who's
complaining about lobha? ".
When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its prime quality and when the
propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure( aramas, arannas,
temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era , then that will be a subject to
lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a subject for dosa.
In migajala sutta, buddha states the importance of the community life and
responsibilities of sangha.
Being a monk is not going into forest and meditate for jhanas...but a way of
life..a 'cariya' of 'brahma' in the 'sasana'..so the phrase 'sasana
brahmacariya'.
As per buddha the monks must train themselves diligently.
In the Kakacupama Sutta, he tells to the monks that they must practice metta
even when someone is removing limb by limb using a saw.
Rightly, 'Living Alone' is not shutting away a 'self' from 'other selves'., its
the living in the sangha community,where one gets the company of the kalyana
mittas and ample amount of 'viveka' to observe the mind.
Rgds.
Sarah Procter Abbott on 12/21/2000 07:12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Gayan,
thanks for your consideration and comments on this
theme.
--- wrote: >
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past
> lives the people who were
> arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
> One interesting fact is they have observed the
> sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
> many times in previous buddhasasanas.
>
I'm sure the people on this list have also all been
monks in previous lives. The question is whether it
is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The
arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay
people and other beings too.
> Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very
> difficult, the aspirants must not be
> discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will
> certainly guide the 'person'
> towards the goal even it may not happen in the near
> future.
>
Really? Would you mind explaining this connection.
> The lay people may have more opportunities to study
> the dhamma, but those
> accumulations will give them the strength for
> renunciation in the future( may
> not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got
> the strength at present.
Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of
understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by
this.
>
> Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of
> the birth in human plane over
> uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the
> holylife can be observed
> there.
>
Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is
appropriate (see my post to Mike).
Best rgds too,
Sarah
2507 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear leonardo,
I trust the season is merry in Brazil. I met a Brazilian guy in
tokyo once - what he said was appealing- "in Brazil we live
life". Great to hear from you.
robert
--- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Amara,
>
> Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu !
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "amara chay"
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 2:26 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
>
>
> >
> > > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> > > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> > > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> > > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> > > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> > > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> > > that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> > > how much there was out there to want.
> >
> >
> > Dear Kyle,
> >
> > I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the
> object of
> > lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the
> Crown Prince
> > had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed
> skill when
> > his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth
> birthday.
> > His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land,
> his
> > wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections. No
> matter the age
> > or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes
> of the
> > senses) could only perceive or experience things only
> through the six
> > dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we
> cling to so
> > passionately appear to us only through these senses, no
> matter how
> > complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even
> our useful
> > computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva
> worlds,
> > since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka
> (result of
> > kamma) of good past kamma. Yet devas have come to listen to
> the
> > Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although
> generally
> > they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of
> kusala in
> > their worlds.
> >
> >
> > > I think the uninstructured had a very good
> > > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> > > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
> > > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> > > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
> > > than most students of Buddhism do today!!
> >
> >
> > Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside! Witness the
> very busy
> > schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate
> the
> > rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas
> could
> > arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed
> of light.
> >
> >
> > > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
> > > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> > > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> > > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
> > > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> > > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> > > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
> > > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
> > > I do not know what is. :)
> >
> >
> > If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at
> all without
> > instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an
> impossibly long
> > period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa
> ever since
> > he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you
> could read
> > about part of this in the beginning part one of our
> articles,
> > 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the
> advanced
> > section of .
> >
> > Enjoy,
> >
> > Amara
>
>
2508 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Gayan,
Well said. Some might think the stories of those like
Angulimala, who murdered 999 people, were exagerations.
However,when we compare the 20th century, with its pol pots,
hitlers, and Rwandas, Angulimala's killing spree seems almost
quaint.
We tend to think we are more sophisticated than the ancients but
all we have is a few extra toys.
Robert
--- wrote: >
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Talking about people who lived in the past,
> I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from
> the present.
>
> On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the
> tipitaka and other
> texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that
> we can observe ,
> feel, do or read nowadays.
> Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people
> are a thousandfold
> greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient
> texts suggest
> otherwise.
>
> On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage
> stories in texts
> which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we
> now see and observe.
> - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid
> murderers.
> - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young
> women ( think of
> the tabloid headlines)
> - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered by
> 'unidentified
> gangsters'.
> -Competition and business interests had lead to many
> unpleasant scenarios...
>
> We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of
> human mind , but they
> are the same old fabrications .
>
>
>
> Regds
>
>
2509 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now
Mike
Your post raises 2 issues which, on reflection, I find
go very much to the heart of one’s practice.
People In The Buddha’s Time
Vs. People Now
This is something which, as far as I know, is not
discussed in the texts (but then, nor was the original
question – ie. What is the need to study the
Abhidhamma if it’s all in the suttas anyway?).
I’m sure you are right when you say that people are
essentially the same now as in the Buddha’s time. But
I believe that there is also one important difference,
namely that there were many, many people then with
much higher accumulated panna than any person has now.
Firstly, and this is admittedly an assumption on my
part, a Buddha (other than a Pacchekka Buddha) arises
in an age when there are many people who are capable
of understanding the teachings and ripe for attaining
enlightenment. Looked at from another angle, the
chance to hear the teaching from the lips of a Buddha
is kusala vipaka of the very highest degree, vipaka
accruing to those who have developed panna of a very
high level. And we do know from the commentaries that
after the Buddha’s death the teachings enter a long
period of decline, which obviously goes hand-in-hand
with a lessening grasp of those teachings.
However, one can also get an idea of this difference
in levels of understanding from the suttas themselves.
In many suttas the Buddha asks his listeners ‘Is
seeing now permanent or impermanent?’ and they are
able to answer ‘Impermanent’ (and the same for
visible object, contact, the feeling arising from that
contact etc).
These answers were not given from knowledge learnt but
from direct experience. Otherwise the listeners would
not have been able to attain enlightenment during the
discourse. They had levels of panna which understood
the momentary nature of consciousness. How would we,
if we had not ever studied Dhamma before, have
answered the same questions? Would the questions even
have had any meaning to us?
The Need To Study Abhidhamma
In Order To Understand The Suttas
I agree with most of your comments on this point.
Looking again at my post I realise that I did not
choose my words well, for which I must apologise. I
certainly did not mean to suggest that knowledge by
direct experience of the whole or even a substantial
portion of the Abhidhamma was necessary for
enlightenment, either then or now. And as you aptly
put it, it is depth of insight that breaks the chain
of conditioned origination.
My point was simply that, without a certain knowledge
of the Abhidhamma, we would not be capable of
understanding the suttas correctly, as in the example
of the passage referred to above. Hence the need to
study (=know) abhidhamma to a certain level. This
does not mean that there has to be study in the
commonly understood sense of the word. We need to
acquire a certain amount of abhidhamma knowledge.
This could be by discussion or reading posts on this
list, for example.
Interestingly, the subject of Abhidhamma study, and
the need to keep it in a proper perspective, was a
fairly constant theme of the discussions among our
group in Cambodia. It was emphasised that the proper
purpose of studying Abhidhamma must be to help us
understand the true nature of the reality appearing at
he present moment. Accordingly, only such knowledge
as can be related to one’s present understanding of
realities can be of real use. Anything more is
intellectual understanding (and, more importantly, not
necessarily pariyatti) and is lost to us at death
anyway. (Would others who were at the discussions
like to supplement here?)
As we are all beginners, the degree of Abhidhamma
knowledge that we can fully benefit from must actually
be of a fairly basic level.
It has always rather intrigued me that this group has
attracted the label of an Abhidhamma group. Among
people I think of as real Abhidhamma scholars we are
perceived as being more concerned with the practice
than with the intricacies of the Abhidhamma as a
subject for study in its own right!
Mike, I hope I have addressed your points. Please
feel free to draw my attention to anything I have not
covered.
Thanks a usual for bringing up the subject. There is a
lot more in this for further discussion.
Jonothan
-----------------------------------------------
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Jonothan,
> > In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
> > understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's
> words
> > without the aid of the Abhidhamma.
>
> Have people changed so much? The world of the
> Buddha
> seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by
> the
> same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc.
> That
> they had the incomparable advantage of being
> directly
> instructed by thousands of arahats (can you
> IMAGINE?!)
> is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow,
> better
> equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The
> Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination
> for
> those who came from other religious traditions that
> recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed
> to
> be in a minority), what advantage did those people
> have over those of the present time?
>
> > The same is not
> > true today. Without the Abhidhamma, it would not
> > be
> > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the
> > Buddha
> > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a
> > reality
> > that arises in a process of cittas, that is
> > momentary,
> > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya,
> > and
> > so on.
>
> Do you think this (detailed understanding) was
> apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the
> Buddha's time? This doesn't seem obvious to me from
> the suttas. In fact, it isn't clear from my reading
> of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear,
> detailed understanding of every last minute detail
> of
> abhidhamma. In fact, was this detailed
> understanding
> a necessary condition or component of nibbana? Or
> was
> sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to
> break the chain of conditioned origination?
>
> > Many of the realities mentioned in the
> > suttas
> > can only be understood today with the aid of the
> > Abhidhamma.
> >
> > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather
> > than
> > elective if we are to understand the teachings
> found
> > in the suttas.
>
> I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious.
> I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit
> of:
>
> (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas:
>
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html
>
> In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed
> skepticism, with the reference constantly returning
> to
> self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so
> is
> pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada
> (if
> I understand this term correctly). So, to to the
> extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant
> insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the
> declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is
> necesary rather than elective if we are to
> understand
> the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet
> this
> criterion.
>
> The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the
> suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed
> understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a
> prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being
> dhammavinaya. So this argument still seems
> dependent
> on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people
> were capable of understanding the deep meaning of
> the
> Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.'
> and
> 'The same is not true today.' Since this is not
> verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see
> more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the
> suttas.
>
> and (b) of the Four Great References of the
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta:
>
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html.
>
> "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a
> bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor
> with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but
> carefully studying the sentences word by word, one
> should trace them in the Discourses and verify them
> by
> the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the
> Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one
> must
> conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed
> One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that
> bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders,
> or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should
> reject it. But if the sentences concerned are
> traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
> Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly,
> this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been
> well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that
> community, or by those elders, or by that elder..."
>
> Again, we could accept the above declarations (only)
> to the extent that they can be verified by the
> discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the
> discourses.
>
> Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to
> gainsay
> anything I've learned from this group. In fact,
> even
> without satisfactory answers to these questions, I
> certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as
> I've been introduced to it here. 'My' understanding
> of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think
> improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've
> received and hope to continue to receive here.
>
> Still, I think that answers to these questions which
> satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great
> value
> to us and especially to those who are skeptical of
> this third of the tipitaka.
>
> Sincere thanks for your patient consideration...
>
> mike
2510 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:07pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
> Talking about people who lived in the past,
> I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from the
present.
>
> On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the tipitaka
and other
> texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that we can
observe ,
> feel, do or read nowadays.
> Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people are a
thousandfold
> greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient texts
suggest
> otherwise.
>
> On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage stories
in texts
> which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we now see
and observe.
> - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid
murderers.
> - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young women (
think of
> the tabloid headlines)
> - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered by
'unidentified
> gangsters'.
> -Competition and business interests had lead to many unpleasant
scenarios...
>
> We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of human mind
, but they
> are the same old fabrications .
Dear Gayan,
I think you have made some astute observations, and would like to
add just another thought: often in the narrow scope of our self
centered lives we think that our problems are unique and impossibly
insurmountable, and someone mentions some incident in the Tipitaka
where worse has happened, with much details to teach us. Still The
most amazing events would inevitably be about nama and rupa, citta
and cetasika and the six dvara and their aramana. And the tireless
reminders from the Buddha to be aware of whatever realities present
themselves, until there could be full realization of things as they
truly are.
May all those who study profit fully from the dhamma, anumodana with
everyone's accumulating kusala,
Amara
2511 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Gayan,
Yes, there are more of us, more stuff, more
enticements, but, aside from that, things haven't
really changed much have they...
mike
--- wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Talking about people who lived in the past,
> I dont think that the lifestyle was very much
> diffrent from the present.
>
> On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories
> in the tipitaka and other
> texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest
> stories that we can observe ,
> feel, do or read nowadays.
> Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that
> people are a thousandfold
> greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days,
> but ancient texts suggest
> otherwise.
>
> On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and
> savage stories in texts
> which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest
> stories we now see and observe.
> - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times
> with paid murderers.
> - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder
> of young women ( think of
> the tabloid headlines)
> - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered
> by 'unidentified
> gangsters'.
> -Competition and business interests had lead to many
> unpleasant scenarios...
>
> We may think computers are stimulating new-found
> areas of human mind , but they
> are the same old fabrications .
>
>
>
> Regds
>
>
>
2512 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana
Sir Gayan!
Glad to hear it's finally arrived! I think maybe I
should interrupt my reading (NVG) to read this so we
can start discussing it.
What do you think?
mike
--- wrote:
> dear Mike sir
>
> I received your dhamma dana on christmas day.
> {Mulapariyaya sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi}
>
> May this punna kamma be a condition for the
> attaining of nibbana,
> May this punnakamma condition the company of Kalyana
> friends
>
>
>
> Rgds.
>
>
>
2513 From:
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:25am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Khun Amara,
--- "amara chay"
wrote:
> If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all
without
> instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly
long
> period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever
since
> he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you could read
> about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles,
> 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced
> section of .
Thanks for pointing this out, I was remiss in my original response.
I really don't know much about the Bodhisatta's history--does most of
this material come from the Jatakas? I'll take a look as 'Viraya-
Parami'--thanks again...mn
2514 From: m. nease
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Robert and Gayan,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
I find all of both your remarks pertinent and
inspiring, in an odd sort of way--kind of depressing,
at first, but then inspiring of dispassion for the
unchanging ways of the world and also of viriya for
the Path.
Saadhu, Sirs,
mike
> Dear Gayan,
> Well said. Some might think the stories of those
> like
> Angulimala, who murdered 999 people, were
> exagerations.
> However,when we compare the 20th century, with its
> pol pots,
> hitlers, and Rwandas, Angulimala's killing spree
> seems almost
> quaint.
> We tend to think we are more sophisticated than the
> ancients but
> all we have is a few extra toys.
> Robert
> --- wrote: >
> >
> >
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > Talking about people who lived in the past,
> > I dont think that the lifestyle was very much
> diffrent from
> > the present.
> >
> > On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic
> stories in the
> > tipitaka and other
> > texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest
> stories that
> > we can observe ,
> > feel, do or read nowadays.
> > Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think
> that people
> > are a thousandfold
> > greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days,
> but ancient
> > texts suggest
> > otherwise.
> >
> > On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody
> and savage
> > stories in texts
> > which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest
> stories we
> > now see and observe.
> > - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times
> with paid
> > murderers.
> > - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and
> murder of young
> > women ( think of
> > the tabloid headlines)
> > - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was
> murdered by
> > 'unidentified
> > gangsters'.
> > -Competition and business interests had lead to
> many
> > unpleasant scenarios...
> >
> > We may think computers are stimulating new-found
> areas of
> > human mind , but they
> > are the same old fabrications .
> >
> >
> >
> > Regds
> >
2515 From: m. nease
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Khun Amara,
--- amara chay wrote:
> Still the
> most amazing events would inevitably be about nama
> and rupa, citta
> and cetasika and the six dvara and their aramana.
> And the tireless
> reminders from the Buddha to be aware of whatever
> realities present
> themselves, until there could be full realization of
> things as they
> truly are.
Excellent! Thanks for bringing this topic back to the
most important of perspectives, that of understanding
of the immediate.
Saadhu, Ma'am,
mike
2516 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 7:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Hi Robert,
Yes, Brazil is, apart from the many problems an undeveloped countryhas, a
good place to live.
Metta,
Leonardo
> Dear leonardo,
> I trust the season is merry in Brazil. I met a Brazilian guy in
> tokyo once - what he said was appealing- "in Brazil we live
> life". Great to hear from you.
> robert
2517 From: Kyle Kirk <>
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Maybe I can explain simply living like this....
Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse,
you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you
are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki
(the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief
of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that
there is nothing more than observing and trying and
*action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
putting into practice what is discussed. That is where
I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the
now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait
and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes"
that so many other religions are.
=====
The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...
and nothing is truly lost.
2518 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Kyle,
Yep, the Buddha sure explained how to understand this moment.
The more we understand it the simpler life becomes. Life indeed
becomes just one moment; and why cling to or fear such a brief
instant. But who is trying and observing?
Robert
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Maybe I can
explain simply living like this....
>
> Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse,
> you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
> aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you
> are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki
> (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief
> of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that
> there is nothing more than observing and trying and
> *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
> putting into practice what is discussed. That is where
> I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
> the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the
> now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait
> and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes"
> that so many other religions are.
>
> =====
>
> The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not
> Descend...
>
> and nothing is truly lost.
>
>
2519 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Mike,
--- wrote: > Dear Khun Amara,
>
> --- > I really don't know much about the Bodhisatta's
history--does
> most of
> this material come from the Jatakas? I'll take a look as
> 'Viraya-
> Parami'--
______
You will find much in the Buddhavamsa and the commentary to it
(Madhuratthavilasini) translated as The Clarifier of Sweet
Meaning(PTS).
robert
2520 From: m. nease
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear Kyle,
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote:
> Maybe I can explain simply living like this....
>
> Instead of "Complicatedly" living.
Yes, this sounds a lot like the 'proliferation'
(papanca) we were discussing recently. If attention
is directed toward what is arising and subsiding at
the present moment, where is the complication?
> You do the
> reverse,
> you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
> aware of things, being concious. By "simply being"
> you
> are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu
> Suzuki
> (the Late) had a tendancy of saying.
If I remember correctly, Suzuki-san was talking about
a Japanese zen term usually translated as 'suchness'
or 'thusness', (connotation genuineness, authenticity)
(I forget the Japanese)--one of my favorite features
of zen. Also (if I understand this correctly) a Pali
word--tathaga--from which is derived 'Tathagata'. I'm
very rusty on all this, so I'd be grateful for any
corrections. All of that said, may I ask, who is it
who does the un-cluttering, and the focusing, being
aware, being conscious, "simply being" and observing?
Is this something that can be willed into being? If
so, who's doing the willing?
> My total belief
> of buddhism is in its simplicity.
I'm very fond of simplicity, too--a little too fond, I
think!
> In the fact that
> there is nothing more than observing and trying and
> *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
> putting into practice what is discussed. That is
> where
> I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
> the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in
> the
> now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to
> "Wait
> and See - for after we die we are granted our
> wishes"
> that so many other religions are.
Well, honestly, I think there are a lot of ways that
the buddhadhamma differs from religion. Certainly,
though, the focus on present realitiy is very
to-the-point and, if not unique, at least unique in
its degree of importance...
mike
2521 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 0:49pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
> Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse,
> you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
> aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you
> are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki
> (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief
> of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that
> there is nothing more than observing and trying and
> *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
> putting into practice what is discussed. That is where
> I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
> the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the
> now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait
> and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes"
> that so many other religions are.
Dear Kyle,
I think Robert and Mike pointed out the main purpose of the focus and
mindfulness, they are the study of realities as they really are,
which are universally characterized by the tilakkhana (three
characteristics) of impermanence, ever falling away and therefore non
self (uncontrollable by anyone). This is the reversal to me, in that
other teachings focus on the person who studies and the outside world
and its millions of theories and subject matter, the perspective is
from the actual experiencing of anything at all by the person, from
the most basic things such as temperature or the sight of the
computer screen at this moment, to the most complicated quantum
theories. All the experienceable (is there such a word?) in the
universe could only be known by us through the six dvara, even own
selves. Without thinking and memory of the thoughts and attachments,
what are we? Like all living beings or almost all, only nama and
rupa. Intellectually at least we could see that indeed there is no
self, no matter where we search. Even the most complicated and
intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting
to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul
that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just to
show us that the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of
the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and
its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds
of cetasika at any single instant) is in fact what it is: a
succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling
immediately away, under no one's control. No matter the stories and
connotations we have of realities experienced, it cannot be about
anything other than the nama and rupa, that keep us involved day and
night, life after lifetime, feeling so unique at each rebirth,
unknowingly the slave of the most demanding self. Until the study of
the truth of things as they really are could reveal the ultimate
selflessness that liberates us from ignorance completely.
It is so simple and yet so extremely difficult to realize fully and
absolutely in experience, isn't it? Yet the actual practice is again
blindingly simple and beneficial, to understand that right
understanding and awareness could arise at any instant and
automatically accumulate, with the right conditions. Our duty is
simply to study as much as we can the characteristics of whatever
appears at the present instant whether it were sight, seeing,
hearing, sound, thinking, etc. all so different one from the other,
and we would be on the path to more knowledge of things as they
really are, and the experiencing clearly of non self.
That is why the Buddha teaches us to be brave and cheerful in the
dhamma,
Amara
2522 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:06pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
Dear all,
Sorry for any confusion I might have caused with this entangled
sentence in my preceding message:
> Even the most complicated and
> intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting
> to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul
> that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just
to
> show us that the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of
> the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and
> its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds
> of cetasika at any single instant) is in fact what it is: a
> succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling
> immediately away, under no one's control.
Which should read: Even the most complicated and intricate teachings
in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting to most people, is
just to show that what we might take for a soul that is permanent
from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just the mechanisms of
the nama, comprising combinations of the citta (intelligence, the
element that knows and experiences) and its cetasika (at least seven
and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds of cetasika at any single
instant). What we take for the soul is in fact a succession of
diverse citta arising from conditions and falling immediately away,
under no one's control.
Hope this is more comprehensible,
Amara
2523 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: List 1st anniversary
Dear Friends,
This week is the 1st anniversary of this discussion
list. We're all newbies to it (not just Mike!) even
though I gather there are some professional listies
helping us with their expertise!
Speaking for myself, I've found the list has grown
from strength to strength over the year and it has
been a real inspiration to me. Much more than that. It
has given my study, consideration and understanding of
dhamma the real boost and impetus they badly needed.
In fact it has been the best boost they've had in many
years.
I'd like to sincerely thank all of you for your
contributions and interest in the list. Even those of
you who prefer to lie low (or are too busy to do
otherwise), thank you for just being with us and
listening in.
Wishing everyone a very happy and healthy New Year and
may the consideration of dhamma prompted on the list
be a condition for panna to develop.
Best wishes and metta,
Sarah
2524 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:41pm
Subject: Re: List 1st anniversary
> This week is the 1st anniversary of this discussion
> list. We're all newbies to it (not just Mike!) even
> though I gather there are some professional listies
> helping us with their expertise!
>
> Speaking for myself, I've found the list has grown
> from strength to strength over the year and it has
> been a real inspiration to me. Much more than that. It
> has given my study, consideration and understanding of
> dhamma the real boost and impetus they badly needed.
> In fact it has been the best boost they've had in many
> years.
>
> I'd like to sincerely thank all of you for your
> contributions and interest in the list. Even those of
> you who prefer to lie low (or are too busy to do
> otherwise), thank you for just being with us and
> listening in.
>
> Wishing everyone a very happy and healthy New Year and
> may the consideration of dhamma prompted on the list
> be a condition for panna to develop.
>
> Best wishes and metta,
> Sarah
Dear Sarah, and dhamma friends,
Happy anniversary to the list and all its members! Thanks and
anumodana with you, Jonothan and Robert for starting it and keeping
the discussions going as well as contributing to the beneficial study
of the dhamma. It has been a wonderful place to meet friends with
common interests with whom to discuss this most intricate matter,
which is not so easily found elsewhere. May all the supreme kusala
the Buddha intended in his teachings benefit all those who study,
this holiday season and always,
Amara
2525 From:
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 0:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana
Dear Sir Mike ,
Sounds good, but I dont like the idea of you interrupting your reading of NVG,
Let me say that I will be ready when you finish reading NVG.
I have a reference of the Work by Ven.Nanananda, which Ven.Bodhi refers to in
his book.
We can discuss it in the future,
Thanks
2526 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 1:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana
Dear Sir Gayan,
Very well, sir--I must admit, Abhidhamma in Daily Life
is very difficult to put down. I look forward to
discussing Mulapariyaya soon...
mike
--- wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Sir Mike ,
>
> Sounds good, but I dont like the idea of you
> interrupting your reading of NVG,
> Let me say that I will be ready when you finish
> reading NVG.
>
> I have a reference of the Work by Ven.Nanananda,
> which Ven.Bodhi refers to in
> his book.
> We can discuss it in the future,
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
2527 From:
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 4:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary
Dear Friends,
I wish the group a happy birthday , a happy anniversary , a happy new year
lets keep on helping each other do what is needed to be done , to finish what is
needed to be finished.
Dear moderators,
Thank you very much for pioneering this and serving the purpose, so that these
dynamically like-minds of a group who have been mothers,fathers,brothers,sisters
of each other for countless times could have yet another chance to help each
other.
Rgds
=^-^=
_/\_
2528 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 9:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Gayan,
--- wrote: >
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of
> understanding, and that
> gives power and strength.
> This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca
> bala 'five powers', as
> saddha bala, etc........
These 5 cetasikas (mental factors) including
understanding become the panca bala only when they are
firm and unshakeable powers...For example, the saddha
(confidence) experienced by the sotapanna is bala, as
I understand it, because there is no turning back, the
right path is established and the confidence in the
right views of the Buddha's teachings cannot be
skaken. No more wrong view of self...Meanwhile however
much confidence it seems we have now, it is not firmly
established, it is not a bala.>
>
> You have questioned whether this is the appropriate
> time to enter the monkhood,
> I assume that this is regarding the declining
> standard of the monk life observed
> all over the world.
> Months earlier in this group we talked about this
> topic, and members talked
> about how aversion comes into play in their minds
> when they see misbehaving
> monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is
> complaining about dosa..who's
> complaining about lobha? ".
> When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its
> prime quality and when the
> propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure(
> aramas, arannas,
> temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era ,
> then that will be a subject to
> lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a
> subject for dosa.
Good points here. I think we need to be more
concerned about our own understanding (or lack of it)
and kilesa than about the others'. We can see how
difficult it is to develop panna at this moment and so
it is for everyone. Whether we live as a monk or a
layperson, we're bound to be amognst those with wrong
views and unwholesome livelihoods. We've been having
discussion about this, as you say, and more recently
about society and whether it has declined. However
true and interesting the stories are, in reality they
are only stories and not the realities which are
appearing through the doorways as Amara reminded us.
Whether it's the right time to become a monk, I think,
should be more a matter of whether the person can
follow the 227 rules happily and easily and
contentedly whatever the conditions around, 'seeing
danger in the slightest faults', guarding 'the doors
of his sense faculties', 'endowed with mindfulness and
clear comprehension'. Are the saddha and panna
unshakeable?
>
> In migajala sutta, buddha states the importance of
> the community life and
> responsibilities of sangha.
> Being a monk is not going into forest and meditate
> for jhanas...but a way of
> life..a 'cariya' of 'brahma' in the 'sasana'..so the
> phrase 'sasana
> brahmacariya'.
> As per buddha the monks must train themselves
> diligently.
> In the Kakacupama Sutta, he tells to the monks that
> they must practice metta
> even when someone is removing limb by limb using a
> saw
Well these conditions would certainly be a test!.
>
> Rightly, 'Living Alone' is not shutting away a
> 'self' from 'other selves'., its
> the living in the sangha community,where one gets
> the company of the kalyana
> mittas and ample amount of 'viveka' to observe the
> mind.
I might just add that whether living in the sangha
community or lay community, quietly on one's own in a
hut or in a busy city, we all need to learn to live
alone with seeing, hearing and all the other realities
appearing....no beings anywhere. Yes viveka (mental
detachment) goes hand in hand with this living
alone...
Thanks also for your appreciation of the list and your
very helpful contributions, Gayan. Can we say that we
can find kalyana mittas in surprising places, like on
the internet?
Best wishes & metta,
Sarah
2529 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 9:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend
Dear Sarah,
See my comments below:
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear
Gayan,
>
> --- wrote: >
> >
> > Dear Sarah,
> >
> > As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of
> > understanding, and that
> > gives power and strength.
> > This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca
> > bala 'five powers', as
> > saddha bala, etc........
>
>
> These 5 cetasikas (mental factors) including
> understanding become the panca bala only when they are
> firm and unshakeable powers...For example, the saddha
> (confidence) experienced by the sotapanna is bala, as
> I understand it, because there is no turning back, the
> right path is established and the confidence in the
> right views of the Buddha's teachings cannot be
> skaken. No more wrong view of self...Meanwhile however
> much confidence it seems we have now, it is not firmly
> established, it is not a bala.>
_______
yes the bala only arise when vipassana is very strong.
___
> > You have questioned whether this is the appropriate
> > time to enter the monkhood,
> > I assume that this is regarding the declining
> > standard of the monk life observed
> > all over the world.
> > Months earlier in this group we talked about this
> > topic, and members talked
> > about how aversion comes into play in their minds
> > when they see misbehaving
> > monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is
> > complaining about dosa..who's
> > complaining about lobha? ".
> > When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its
> > prime quality and when the
> > propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure(
> > aramas, arannas,
> > temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era ,
> > then that will be a subject to
> > lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a
> > subject for dosa.
>
> Good points here. I think we need to be more
> concerned about our own understanding (or lack of it)
> and kilesa than about the others'. We can see how
> difficult it is to develop panna at this moment and so
> it is for everyone. Whether we live as a monk or a
> layperson, we're bound to be amognst those with wrong
> views and unwholesome livelihoods. We've been having
> discussion about this, as you say, and more recently
> about society and whether it has declined. However
> true and interesting the stories are, in reality they
> are only stories and not the realities which are
> appearing through the doorways as Amara reminded us.
>
> Whether it's the right time to become a monk, I think,
> should be more a matter of whether the person can
> follow the 227 rules happily and easily and
> contentedly whatever the conditions around
__________
,there is one sutta where the buddha points out that some monks
live the Brahmacariya with difficulty, pain and tears- BUT they
still live it and can attain.
______
'seeing
> danger in the slightest faults', guarding 'the doors
> of his sense faculties', 'endowed with mindfulness and
> clear comprehension'. Are the saddha and panna
> unshakeable?
_____________
Yes the main point may be whether being a monk conditions more
genuine satipatthana, more guarding of the doors, than when as a
layman. If it doesn't why be a monk?
Robert
>
2530 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Tai chi and akaido
Dear Jody,
I meant to make a few comments in response to this
part of your message but was busy at the
time....apologies for the delay!
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: >
Kia ora koutou (hello all),
>
> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and
> finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully,
> I can also
> compliment it with additional practices of
> samatha-vispassana.
I also enjoy doing tai chi but for various reasons I'm
a lot lazier about it this year than I was last year.
I think it's a really excellent kind of exercise and
it has tremendous health benefits, especially when one
starts to experience the 'chi' flowing through the
body. (Kyle, I'm sure similar comments can be made
about akaido, but I'm less familiar with it.)
Conventionally we may say that there is awareness
while doing this practice or akaido or yoga or slow
walking or whatever. The question is, is it really
sati? Sati only arises with kusala cittas (wholesome
consciousness) such as at moments of giving or
observing sila or of right understanding. When there
is concentrating on the 'chi' or the movements of tai
chi, this is not sati for example. None of this is to
suggest there cannot be sati, even satipatthana while
we are doing tai chi or any other action, but there is
no intrinsic reason that I'm aware of as to why it
would be more likely to arise at this time.
If we have the idea of somehow separating and finding
special times for sati or the development of samatha
or vipassana, it seems there is an idea of control or
self lurking there.....
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the
> mind, and the
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the
> 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that
> promote one static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner
> chatter,
> or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to
> take daily accounts
> of my experiences in meditation and study, as a
> means of introspection
> and retrospection. I have tentatively started
> documenting thoughts
> concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these
> realities to
> samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be
> recommended? If
> so, is there a conventional manner of such "self"
> study?
As Robert asked, why do you want to stop the chatter
and clinging....?? Doesn't this show more clinging and
lack of detachment to what is conditioned already at
this moment? It takes courage to develop
understanding! I was just listening to an old tape
with Khun Sujin and she was talking about how we take
our stories seriously because of the clinging to a
view of self. Don't we also take all our other
experiences seriously because they are 'mine' and
isn't this what introspection and retrospection are
about? How about developing understanding of a reality
now and then it's gone, history, never to reappear
again. No need to cling to it or analyse it. There's
another reality appearing now!
In samatha, the key is to understand how one of the 40
objects calms the mind at this moment and in
vipassana, the key is to understand precisely what the
realities are which can be the objects of panna (rt
understanding) now.
The more this understanding develops, the less we need
to compartmentalise our lives in terms of the
practice. We can follow our inclinations easily and
contentedly, knowing that sati can and will arise
whenever there are the right conditions without any
idea of control or special time and place for
practice.
Meanwhile, keep up the tai-chi and whatever else you
enjoy!
Best wishes & metta,
Sarah>
p.s. Kyle- a very belated BIG WELCOME to the list -
I'll pick up on the simplicity later!!
2531 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary
Dear Sarah and Friends,
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
It would be difficult to overstate the importance of
this list to me in the last year and, for that matter,
in this life. With heartfelt thanks to my admirable
friends, here are a couple of anniversary presents:
"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was
living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town
named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed
One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed
One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven.
Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the
holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends,
companions, & colleagues."
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having
admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues
is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk
has admirable people as friends, companions, &
colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the
noble eightfold path."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-2.html
However, having just endured an american presidential
election(!), I feel obliged to give equal time to a
cautionary counterpoint (since 'no one's complaining
about the lobha'--thanks, Sarah!)(I prefer the PTS
translation, 'Born of Affection'):
"Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are
born from one who is dear, come springing from one who
is dear."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn87.html
I just want to say thanks to all of you (especially
Robert, who introduced us) for being my 'admirable
friends' for who knows how long? and to say, 'Happy No
Year'--after all, what's a year but a concept?
Cheers!
mike
2532 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
> Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the tapes
> Robert sent me: I still haven't overcome the
> technological hurdles to getting these onto the web.
Dear Mike,
Anumodana with all your efforts, and I meant to ask you about the
glossary, and whether you would like more updated versions of this
work in progress? Or would you rather wait till we are finished
adding entries from the 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'? Both are nearly
done, by the way. 'Summary' should be ready to go to the press in
January. The glossary a little later. Perhaps you could send us
some ideas of how the latter should be presented so it might be handy
to use and carry around, by the way.
Thanks in advance and anumodana for everything,
Amara
2533 From: amara chay
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 0:06am
Subject: Re: List 1st anniversary
> 'Happy No
> Year'--after all, what's a year but a concept?
Dear Mike,
And happy no year, no century and no millenium to you too, Sir!
Amara
2534 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
Dear Khun Amara,
--- amara chay wrote:
> Dear Mike,
>
> Anumodana with all your efforts, and I meant to ask
> you about the
> glossary, and whether you would like more updated
> versions of this
> work in progress?
Well, this is good question. I think it makes most
sense to wait till it's more or less complete, to
avoid multiple revisions. Do you expect this to be
done soon after completion of 'Summary' and the
'Paccaya'?
> Or would you rather wait till we
> are finished
> adding entries from the 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'?
> Both are nearly
> done, by the way. 'Summary' should be ready to go
> to the press in
> January. The glossary a little later. Perhaps you
> could send us
> some ideas of how the latter should be presented so
> it might be handy
> to use and carry around, by the way.
I'd like that--if you like, I could try formatting it
in 'Word' for printing from a printer. I haven't
actually done this, but I do think Word has this
capability, as well as indexing etc.
> Thanks in advance and anumodana for everything,
Thanks to YOU for the opportunity to be of service!
mike
2535 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 3:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
Mike,
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear
Sarah, Jon, Khun Amara et al.,
> > Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could
> post
> > the titles of books available.
>
> Yes, please! And thanks again...
>
Mike, just on this point...As we (Jonothan and myself)
never know what books are in print etc, you could
either go back to the list Sukin made earlier this
month of books at the Foundation and order from that
or just order one of each of the books available and
pass on copies of any you already have!
Sarah (or Ms P.A. as you s'times prefer!)
2537 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 5:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok
Dear Ms P-A.,
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Mike, just on this point...As we (Jonothan and
> myself)
> never know what books are in print etc, you could
> either go back to the list Sukin made earlier this
> month of books at the Foundation and order from that
> or just order one of each of the books available and
> pass on copies of any you already have!
Thank ye, Ma'am--will do!
mn
2538 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:36am
Subject: Another booklet!
Dear friends in the dhamma,
The latest booklet printed by the foundation, 'The Master Avengers'
is now translated and uploaded in the advanced section,
. The discussion is about a kind of
superstition among those who believe in rebirth without
understanding the mechanisms involved, making it a sort of lighter
reading for the end of the year. Chapters 4&5 of 'Abhidhamma' also
up, have a great year's end!
Amara
2539 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 1:56am
Subject: Study time!
Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments
in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly
a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be
concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. So if I have
appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
With metta, Jody.
2540 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time !
Hi friends,
> Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
>
> I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments
> in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly
> a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be
> concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text.
> So if I have appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
>
> With metta, Jody.
Nor do I :-))
Metta,
Leonardo
2541 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:37am
Subject: Re: Study time !
--- "Leonardo Neves" wrote:
>
> Hi friends,
>
> > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
> >
> > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments
> > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly
> > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be
> > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text.
>
> > So if I have appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
> >
> > With metta, Jody.
>
> Nor do I :-))
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!!
I was just thinking of you! And wondering how you said this in your
languages!
Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings,
Amara
2542 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:49am
Subject: Feliz Ano Novo !
Dear Amara, Jody and friends,
> Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!!
> I was just thinking of you! And wondering how you said this in your
> languages!
> Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings,
> Amara
Feliz Ano Novo (in portuguese)
Thank you every one of you - wonderful teachers !
Metta,
Leonardo
2544 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Re: Feliz Ano Novo !
> Feliz Ano Novo (in portuguese)
>
> Thank you every one of you - wonderful teachers !
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
Dear Leonardo,
Personally I think we are all students as well as teachers here,
this list has been a wonderful learning experience for me because of
everyone's perspective of the dhamma around us that gave me fresh
views every time I read a message. As Khun Jack says of his
California group, we all help one another in this intricate matter as
best we can, and I have learned a lot as well as enjoyed with much
chanda, lobha and certainly some mudita all our studies towards right
understanding. I can only repeat myself, anumodana to all those who
study and may you benefit fully from the Dhamma taught by the Buddha,
Amara
2545 From: m. nease
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time!
Dear Jody,
I can think of few subjects more worthy of
concentration. Best wishes!
mike
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote:
> Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
>
> I just wanted to thank you for your constructive
> comments
> in regards to the last few emails I made. There is
> certainly
> a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will
> be
> concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. So if I
> have
> appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
>
> With metta, Jody.
>
2546 From: m. nease
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time !
Glad to hear it, Leonardo!
Feliz novo ano!
mn
--- Leonardo Neves wrote:
>
> Hi friends,
>
> > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
> >
> > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive
> comments
> > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is
> certainly
> > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I
> will be
> > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text.
>
> > So if I have appeared to have "virtually"
> vanished, I have not.
> >
> > With metta, Jody.
>
> Nor do I :-))
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
>
>
>
2547 From: selamat
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another booklet!
Dear Amara,
anumodana.
Wishing you ever grow in the Dhamma.
metta,
dhamma study group bogor
----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 11:36 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another booklet!
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
> The latest booklet printed by the foundation, 'The Master Avengers'
> is now translated and uploaded in the advanced section,
> . The discussion is about a kind of
> superstition among those who believe in rebirth without
> understanding the mechanisms involved, making it a sort of lighter
> reading for the end of the year. Chapters 4&5 of 'Abhidhamma' also
> up, have a great year's end!
>
> Amara
>
>
>
2548 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !
Dear Group,
As someone said there is really no New Year, time is a concept.
There are however namas and rupas arising and falling in a conti
nuous series that is irreversible. And so the idea of time is
needed to explain and comprehend dhamma (not to mention living
our lives). When we wish goodwill to others it is kusala,
wholesome.
It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , another concept, one that
comes around quicker, it seems, as time goes by. When sarah came
up with the idea of starting this group I thought it would be
worthwhile but didn't have too many expectations. I figured if
one person outside the original members got something out of it
that would be fine.These expectations have been much exceeded.
Things started well and slowly got better. Betty joined. Then
Leonardo came along and the list took off; some of the most
useful discussions yet. Soon after Alex joined and then Mike:
both so encouraging. I was very thankful when Kom came along
with his wide knowledge. Gayan joined up and pleasantly
surprised us with the details of vangceti. So nice to have
Rodjali from indonesia - a long time friend of Nina van Gorkom.
A real plus was having Jim Anderson sign on, a very
well-informed member indeed. There are many others too: Joe,
Jody, O, JimW, dhd, sotujana, Mary, Michael J and others who
have contributed and helped us all.
Thank you, I hope we can meet someday, maybe in Thailand? If
anyone is planning a trip I'll be in Bangkok for a week in early
August 2001. In any event looking forwrd to hearing from you all
on the web.
Kindest regards
Robert
2549 From: selamat
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !
Dear Robert, and all dhamma friends,
Anumodana for your effort in the Path to Freedom.
The only real time we can perceive is 'this moment' which will fall
immediately.
metta,
selamat rodjali
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !
> Dear Group,
> As someone said there is really no New Year, time is a concept.
> There are however namas and rupas arising and falling in a conti
> nuous series that is irreversible. And so the idea of time is
> needed to explain and comprehend dhamma (not to mention living
> our lives). When we wish goodwill to others it is kusala,
> wholesome.
> It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , another concept, one that
> comes around quicker, it seems, as time goes by. When sarah came
> up with the idea of starting this group I thought it would be
> worthwhile but didn't have too many expectations. I figured if
> one person outside the original members got something out of it
> that would be fine.These expectations have been much exceeded.
> Things started well and slowly got better. Betty joined. Then
> Leonardo came along and the list took off; some of the most
> useful discussions yet. Soon after Alex joined and then Mike:
> both so encouraging. I was very thankful when Kom came along
> with his wide knowledge. Gayan joined up and pleasantly
> surprised us with the details of vangceti. So nice to have
> Rodjali from indonesia - a long time friend of Nina van Gorkom.
> A real plus was having Jim Anderson sign on, a very
> well-informed member indeed. There are many others too: Joe,
> Jody, O, JimW, dhd, sotujana, Mary, Michael J and others who
> have contributed and helped us all.
> Thank you, I hope we can meet someday, maybe in Thailand? If
> anyone is planning a trip I'll be in Bangkok for a week in early
> August 2001. In any event looking forwrd to hearing from you all
> on the web.
> Kindest regards
> Robert
>
2551 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !
Thank you Rodjali,
I should have mentioned in the last post that our talks here are
having an effect elsewhere: Gayans vangeti's are discussed at
ongoing meetings with Acharn sujin, acharn somporn and other
members of the pali text committee. I forgot to mention also
Sukin and his help and encouragement. (Shin, Ivan, Pinna, Alan
weller and others were original members)
Robert
--- selamat wrote:
> Dear Robert, and all dhamma friends,
> Anumodana for your effort in the Path to Freedom.
>
> The only real time we can perceive is 'this moment' which will
> fall
> immediately.
>
> metta,
> selamat rodjali
>
2552 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Feliz Ano Novo !
> It is my birthday(43) on tuesday ,
Happy birthday in advance, Robert!
And signing off for the year, see you all next year, decade, century,
and millenium!!!
Amara
2553 From: A T
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: Happy New Year!
Dear friends,
Chu'c Mu+`ng Na(m Mo+'i!
Happy New Year (in Vietnamese)!
May you all have a happy new year, a peaceful new century, and a wonderful
new millennium!
Thank you for this fabulous list... :-)))
Alex Tran
2554 From: bruce
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:36am
Subject: new year's greeting where it belongs
robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack of mindfullness in
posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, and i apologize...this
was certainly meant for dsg:
=====================
happy dark part of the year to all of you in the northern hemisphere, and
happy rebirthday in advance to robert...
i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly after being quite engaged
by all the discussion threads...and at the moment i'm in no shape to put
together a long or coherent reply to all the posts i've been saving...still
have lots of questions for you all....the reason being: i am undergoing
severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely concentrate on these sentences
long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours with no cigarettes and
counting, and it is some genuine akusala vipaka...needless to say, this is
an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the moment: it
seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current unpleasant feelings
that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and much nastier
than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as they arise and
pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly that it's
useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow by...
my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha and upadana
head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment....
i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the posts, and
getting more useful information than i thought possible...
thanks for so much good discussion...
mettacittena
bruce
2555 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs
Dear Bruce,
I've been hanging out at d-l for the last few days so saw it
there. Thank you. BTW I left your name off the list of people
who have helped the discussion - no offense just a sign of
ageing memory!
Nice to see you so conversant already with some of the pali we
use here.
Good luck on giving up the 'baccy. My father tried for years to
give up and eventually managed to cut down to about 6 or 8 a day
- it is sure a hard thing to stop.
You might notice that although concentration is now scattered
sati can still come in and be aware of brief moments - so that
for instance unpleasant sensations can be seen as anatta(not
you). If you can do this it would be valuable.
Robert
--- bruce wrote:
> robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack of
> mindfullness in
> posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, and i
> apologize...this
> was certainly meant for dsg:
>
> =====================
>
>
>
> happy dark part of the year to all of you in the northern
> hemisphere, and
> happy rebirthday in advance to robert...
>
> i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly after being
> quite engaged
> by all the discussion threads...and at the moment i'm in no
> shape to put
> together a long or coherent reply to all the posts i've been
> saving...still
> have lots of questions for you all....the reason being: i am
> undergoing
> severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely concentrate on
> these sentences
> long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours with no
> cigarettes and
> counting, and it is some genuine akusala vipaka...needless to
> say, this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the
> moment: it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current
> unpleasant feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and
> much nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as
> they arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly
> that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow
> by...
>
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha
> and upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment....
>
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the
> posts, and
> getting more useful information than i thought possible...
>
> thanks for so much good discussion...
>
> mettacittena
> bruce
>
2556 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 10:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs
Bruce!
Great to hear from you! Good luck with the
withdrawals, and Happy New Year!
mn
--- bruce wrote:
> robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack
> of mindfullness in
> posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy,
> and i apologize...this
> was certainly meant for dsg:
>
> =====================
>
>
>
> happy dark part of the year to all of you in the
> northern hemisphere, and
> happy rebirthday in advance to robert...
>
> i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly
> after being quite engaged
> by all the discussion threads...and at the moment
> i'm in no shape to put
> together a long or coherent reply to all the posts
> i've been saving...still
> have lots of questions for you all....the reason
> being: i am undergoing
> severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely
> concentrate on these sentences
> long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours
> with no cigarettes and
> counting, and it is some genuine akusala
> vipaka...needless to say, this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to
> understand the moment: it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my
> current unpleasant feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and
> lasting, and much nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the
> feelings as they arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so
> swiftly that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current
> flow by...
>
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal
> with tanha and upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the
> moment....
>
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading
> all the posts, and
> getting more useful information than i thought
> possible...
>
> thanks for so much good discussion...
>
> mettacittena
> bruce
>
>
2557 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 3:15pm
Subject: master avengers
Dear Amara,
I read over the article about 'master avengers'.
http://www.dhammastudy.com/master.html
I guess few westerners have heard of this idea, but it was very
useful for the explanations about kamma.
I think it could probably go into the intermediate section
rather than the advanced.
Robert
2558 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 8:45pm
Subject: Another 'Word'
Dear friends,
Varee has chosen another passage for the section 'A Few Words' in
called 'Vipassana', uploaded today.
She has also finished the revision of the 'Summary' for printing in
book form today. We will be sending the discs to the printer's soon
and hope you will anumodana with the latest pledge to help with the
printing from Shinlin, for 20,000 bhts. She has also accepted to
help with the accounting so if anyone would still like to contribute
anything towards the printing, please contact her. Anumodana for all
the kusala cetana from all those who have already donated, and to
Shin for her help with the accounting, may any beneficence the book
might bring be cause for kusala citta to arise and anumodana for
everyone,
Amara
2559 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: master avengers
> I think it could probably go into the intermediate section
> rather than the advanced.
Dear Robert,
Thanks for the comments, will move it immediately. Please remember
to click on reload/refresh when checking on the related pages,
Amara
2560 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: new year's greeting where it belongs
> .needless to say,
this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the
moment: it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current unpleasant
feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and much
nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as they
arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow by...
>
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha and
upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment....
>
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the posts,
and
> getting more useful information than i thought possible...
Dear Bruce,
I am so glad you found the posts helpful for what you are undergoing,
the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one gets distracted by
the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call anything that
distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating knowledge of
things as they really are. But because it brings the highest good,
the accompanying kusala must arise as well, inevitably, and it is
always pleasant to experience, although like all else in life it
falls away and would not arise when one has lobha for it, in other
words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance to its arising.
Knowing this, being mindful would be for the increase in knowledge
itself, while one studies things that arises from conditions and fall
immediately away, realities that are not the self, even the greatest
torture cannot stay 24 hr.s a day, with so many other realities
arising in between through all other dvaras. As you read this
message, certainly realities appear through the eyes, as visible
object, so different from sounds and smells. Thinking as well as
countless bhavanga (life continuums) arise and fall away as well, the
body sense of touching various objects related to the computer, etc.
And as you observed, all could be the objects of mindfulness of
things as they really are could lead to the separation of physical
from mental sufferings, which might help you keep from shooting the
second arrow at yourself, since the first arrow of physical suffering
could not be avoided as the result of kamma. Worrying and
preoccupation about any situation is considered the second arrow (and
2nd, 3rd, ad infinitum) in the Buddhist sense, as Khun Sujin
explained in one of the latest booklets uploaded in the advanced
section of , 'Birth, Age, Illness and
Death' from which I quote:
While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could
not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of
the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there
would be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the
first arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second
arrow that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No
matter how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily
dukkha, since to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito
bites. If there were no worry, the second arrow would not exist,
just the first one.
To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly
see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When
there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and
trouble to it. To worry is completely useless, long trains of
thought that does not help in any way. When there is illness we
should take care of it without wasting time worrying about it.
(End quote)
The student of the dhamma would realize and profit from any situation
through the study of the truth, and accumulate more knowledge of
realities as they really are, gradually. Anumodana in your
perseverance in studying, and may kusala keep you and give you
courage,
Amara
2561
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Study time !
Dear friends,
Recently, I've become somewhat invisible. Now, I'm back to those
wonderful books thanks to O, Robert, Mike, and those bookstores.
When having a question, I ask for help again. :-))) What can I do
without your wonderful knowledge? :-)))
Amara, please post the address of the person who accepts checks to
print books for me. Thank you, Amara.
Again, Happy New Year.
Anumodana to all of your good work,
Alex Tran
2562 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Study time !
> Now, I'm back to those
> wonderful books thanks to O, Robert, Mike, and those bookstores.
Happy New Year, Alex!
Anumodana in all you studies!! And for wanting to contribute to the
printing of the 'Summary', I hope you have had time to read some of
new booklets in our website as well?
> Amara, please post the address of the person who accepts checks
to
> print books for me.
Shinlin is here on the list, her e-mail is .
I'm not sure to which address she would prefer you used to send
letters, will ask her tomorrow unless she sees this message before
that and tells you herself. (It's past 10 pm. here is Bkk.) It's
really great to hear from you, I almost wish your studies give you
lots of questions just so we could discuss them!
Amara
2563 From:
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 0:51am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Hi Mike (et al.)
Long ago, you wrote in response to an earlier post of mine:
> As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a
> paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even
> profound insight. I just wanted to comment on this
> because it reminded me of something much more mundane
> that I've noticed myself. When I've explained a
> little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's
> always the smartest ones who react most quickly and
> with the strongest aversion. I think this is because
> those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the
> extent to which everything they've ever believed in is
> called into question.
I've noticed the same things. Curiously, among those smartest, the
most spiritual-minded (Christian, Jewish, eclectic) may tend to be
even MORE swift and averse to buddhadhamma than the more secular!
On a slightly different note, I wrote:
> > In
> > instances like these, some questions that come up
> > might be: Is fear
> > unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear
> > presents itself to the
> > mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and
> > adhitana), it seems to
> > me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant
> > feeling or even fear
> > when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a
> > reliable indication
> > that the practice has gone astray.
To which you responded:
> I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm
> not sure I understand it. I think of fear as just
> aversion toward an idea of some future
> unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
> domanassa. The only forms of aversion I can remember
> the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard
> to misconduct
My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at some point
in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the right
direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that the
practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice has
advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear"
(bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of fear is a
signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the
meditator has indeed made good progress. Another example is Buddha's
account of the day of his enlighenment. In the forest, he was
assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded wisely each time fear
arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was was so near to
enlightenment.
If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than aversion, then it is a
vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear rather than its mere
arising that is a more proper guide to whether the practice has gone
awry.
2564 From:
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 1:13am
Subject: Re: Hello all
Hi Jody. Thanks for another of your delightful posts. I believe all
the suttas have been translated into English and the vinaya too. In
addition, most of the Abhidhamma pitaka is readily available in
English translation too (but not Yamaka nor most of Patthana). Others
on the forum will certainly be able to help you here.
Tai chi can certainly be a good vehicle for developing sati as well as
samadhi. (Although, it was torture on my shaky knees when I practiced
for a couple years in the 1980's). Also, studying buddhadhamma helps
to ensure that the sati and samadhi are samma-sati and samma-samadhi.
At some point, an intensive study of vipassana meditation at an
extended retreat (2 weeks or so) will prove indispensible, especially
in understanding the nature of the "inner chatter."
Keeping a diary of experiences in meditation and study can
potentially be helpful because it can help you see your progress (or
utter lack thereof!). However, such a diary is quite likely to become
a hindrance later on because it can so easily get you thinking about
gauging progress, rolling in thoughts about your progress, generating
inner chatter about progress, obsessing about your progress, thinking
about you, You, YOU! For this reason I would strongly recommend not
keeping a journal after making a committment to an intensive retreat.
> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also
> compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one
static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
> or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily
accounts
> of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of
introspection
> and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts
> concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to
> samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If
> so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study?
>
> That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody.
2565 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 3:16am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
> My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at some
point
> in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the right
> direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that the
> practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice has
> advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear"
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of fear is
a
> signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the
> meditator has indeed made good progress. Another example is Buddha's
> account of the day of his enlighenment. In the forest, he was
> assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded wisely each time fear
> arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was was so near to
> enlightenment.
>
> If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than aversion, then it is
a
> vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear rather than its mere
> arising that is a more proper guide to whether the practice has gone
> awry.
Dear dhd5,
From my own readings, the Bhaya-nana (the sixth vipassana-nana), the
Adinava-nana (the seventh vipassana-nana) and the Nibbida-nana (the
eighth vipassana-nana) are not nana about normal dosa as experienced
in daily life but the knowledge of the harm of taking nama and rupa
that arise and fall away constantly for something permanent or the
self, on deeper and still deeper levels. According to the book
'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapter on Vipassana, in the
advanced section of , the different
stages of nana leading to the attainment of the sotapanna level are
described as follows:
Before the magga-vithi-citta could arise, the
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to be mindful, study and
know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of each
rebirth until the panna that takes notes and knows the
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would increase. When
the panna is full, steadfast to a certain level, the
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta that is a vipassana-nana would arise
to clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma
respective the level of vipassana-nana
through the mano-dvara, namely:
Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana
The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize,
experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma
that are completely separate, arammana by arammana. The world
appears as a reality void of the self. At that moment there is no
atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world.
Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the specific
reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be mindful of
the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining the
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter. Because
without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna already
experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna
accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be
eradicated.
Paccayapariggaha-nana: the second vipassana-nana
After the vipassana-nana has fallen away, the world would appear
assembled as before. Those who develop sati-patthana would know
exactly the differences between the instant when the vipassana-nana
arises and when not. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen
away, ignorance and uncertainty about other nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma would arise again because they have not been absolutely
eradicated. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is a nata-parinna, the
nana that knows only the characteristics of the reality that appears
uniquely at the moment of vipassana-nana. At the instant of
vipassana-nana there is no ignorance and uncertainty about the
characteristics of realities appearing. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana
is the first step of vipassana-nana leading to the development of the
next levels of increasingly clear realization of the characteristics
of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.
When sati-patthana has continued further to be mindful, examine and
take notes of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma
appearing, it would realize that each instant that arammana appears,
the consciousness would arise according to paccaya, which are the
arammana. If the distinct arammana does not appear, the nama-dhamma
that knows that arammana cannot arise. The appearance of each
arammana would allow panna to see the characteristics of being
paccaya of the appearing dhamma. The characteristics of anatta of
all dhamma could then be known and gradually the focus on, and the
self-involved attention to the arammana would be attenuated. The
instant the eightfold magga, which is a sankhara-khandha, has
developed to the fullest, it would cause the second vipassana-nana,
the paccayapariggaha-nana, to arise and realize the arising of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma according to paccaya at the instant that
the specific realities arise, for example, the realization of the
arising of the hearing consciousness or of sound, that of the arising
of sukha-vedana or dukkha- vedana or thinking consciousness, which
would appear in their separateness arammana by arammana in
characteristics void of the self etc.
The vipassana-nana fully realizes the characteristics of realities
that arise and appear normally but the realization is through the
mano-dvara. It severs the characteristics of each arammana in
manner completely voiding all other things as well as the self.
After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, the world would
appear assembled as before.
Sammasana-nana: the third vipassana-nana
The sammasana-nana is the panna that fully realizes the rapid
arising and falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.
When it is not vipassana-nana, even though there is knowledge through
reasoning that nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma arise and fall away very
rapidly, the arising and falling away would not be apparent. Even in
the first and second vipassana-nana, the realization of the
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is only that of each
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma one at a time.
The first, second and third vipassana-nana are taruna-vipassana, the
vipassana of the beginning level, therefore, they are still weak, not
balava-vipassana or vipassana-nana that is strong, as are the higher
levels of vipassana-nana. Taruna-vipassana still reflects upon
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized if in an aspect
void of the world that used to appear assembled.
Since there is still thinking about nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that
is being realized, they are called cinta-nana, which makes people
mistake the 3 vipassana-nana for the instants of mindfulness, noting
and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and
more clearly understanding them. But as long as vipassana-nana has
not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the
vipassana-nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara would arise as
being anatta, and which and how many nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma
would appear as arammana.
Some might understand that the moment of mindfulness, examination
of and noting the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and
thinking, is already the clear knowledge of
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. This is because they do not know yet that
vipassana-nana must arise and appear as being anatta like all other
nama-dhamma, and that it is the realization of the sequential
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara
with the other dvara apparently excluded by the mano-dvara.
Contrarily, when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the
mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all
panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear
because it would be hidden by the arammana of the
panca-dvara-vithi-citta.
Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from
such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already
vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana. But until the
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise.
And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible
to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a
vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen
would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that
vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga
(ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto
completion as the specific vipassana-nana. Thus the specific
vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions.
Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are
mindful, study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and
more conscientiously.
Some think that when sammasana-nana arises they would see
nama-dhamma arising and falling away as little spheres, one after
another. Nama-dhamma is not rupa-dhamma. Since they have no
knowledge of the characteristics of nama-dhamma, not having developed
sati-patthana to be mindful of the characteristics of specific kinds
of nama-dhamma, which is the element of consciousness, they think
that nama-dhamma that arises and fall away has the characteristics of
a certain rupa. Those who are impatient to have vipassana-nana arise
immediately would try to do other things rather than be mindful,
examine and take note of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma that arise and appear according to the causes and
conditions as they truly are. But it is impossible to rush panna at
all. The only hetu to develop panna to gradually grow is
sati-patthana normally, in ordinary everyday life. If one does
anything else, it is certain that the wrong result will issue from
the wrong causes. Wrong practice comes from desiring quick results
because there is no understanding of the correct way to practice.
Lobha-mula-citta with wrong view would be miccha-magga that leads to
miccha-vimutti or the wrong freedom because it would not be the right
freedom from kilesa but which is mistaken as such.
Udayabbaya-nana: the fourth vipassana-nana
Even though the third vipassana-nana realizes the rapid and
continuous rising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma,
panna would still not be conscientious or refined enough to abandon
or see the harm of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma because the great rapidity conceals the harm of the
arising and falling away in sequence. Therefore panna must be
developed further to reach the next level of plenitude, when it can
penetrate the arising and falling away of each kind of nama-dhamma
and rupa-dhamma even more clearly. None can endeavor otherwise but
to continue to examine unwaveringly the characteristics of no matter
which kinds of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma: any level of
kusala-dhamma, akusala-dhamma, through eyes, ears, nose, tongue,
bodysense or mind. The vipassana-nana of the fourth level, the
udayabbaya-nana, clearly realizes the arising and falling away of
each kind of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The Udayabbaya-nana would
arise
only when the tirana-parinna, which is panna that can examine the
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thoroughly through all
six doorways, reaches fullness. As long as sati-patthana has not yet
been mindful and known the characteristics of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma clearly through all six dvara the udayabbaya-nana would
not have any paccaya to arise.
Those who develop the ariya-magga, namely the right samma-magga,
would know that there is no way at all to experience the reality of
nibbana, which is the dhamma that eradicates kilesa, if one had not
developed panna to know the reality appearing ordinarily as they
really are. To clearly experience the reality of nibbana without the
panna having examined the characteristics of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma, the six dvara thoroughly and conscientiously is
impossible.
Because without knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma really thoroughly there can be no knowledge of the
differences in the characteristics of each nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma. Without such a knowledge though all six dvara there can
be no clear realization of the arising and falling away of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. And without the realization of the
arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, there can be
no eradication of ignorance, uncertainty and wrong view about
realities.
Bhanga-nana: the fifth vipassana-nana
Even though the udayabbaya-nana had realized the rising and falling
away of distinct characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma very
clearly, the pleasure and satisfaction in, and clinging to the
realities, accumulated throughout the eternity of samsara-vatta, it's
still tenacious. This demonstrates the deep-rootedness of avijja and
tanha in being the self. So panna must be further developed by the
sati-patthana being mindful of the characteristics realized: the
arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, which had
appeared to the udayabbaya-nana, then there must be conscientiousness
in the examination of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma appearing so that panna could see the meaninglessness of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that fall away in continuation. When
sati-patthana had developed and panna had increased until there is
plenitude of paccaya, the bhanga-nana would arise to clearly realize
the absence of substance of the arising and continuous falling away
of realities appearing as the pahana-parinna, which leads to the
development of parinna of the next levels, which will start to
attenuate pleasure in realities as the selves, entities and persons.
Bhaya-nana: the sixth vipassana-nana
When the bhanga-nana had fallen away, the developer of the
sati-patthana would know that kilesa had the power to arise and
evolve with accumulation. Even though there is intention to be
mindful of the continuous falling away of the nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma, the belief in the self is still tenaciously rooted and
can only be attenuated precisely by seeing the harm of the falling
away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. Therefore sati-patthana and
panna would continue to be mindful of the characteristics of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma by examining the harm of the falling away
in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When panna is plenary
with paccaya the bhaya-nana would arise to see the harm of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma in the instant it is clearly realizing
the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.
Adinava-nana: the seventh vipassana-nana
Even though the bhaya-nana had seen the harm of the arising and
falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, when the bhaya-nana had
fallen away, the pleasure in taking nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma for
the self would not be eliminated. The developers of sati-patthana
would know that their knowledge of the harm of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma must be increased in various aspects until it attenuates
even further the attachment to nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma as the
self. When sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that
arise and fall away, panna would see the harm of the arising and
falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly until the
moment the paccaya is plenary and ready to induce the arising of
adinava-nana, then the adinava-nana would arise to clearly realize
the harm of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise and fall away at
that instant.
Nibbida-nana: the eighth vipassana-nana
When there has been full realization of the harm of sankhara-dhamma
like a house that is completely in flames, the pleasure in life would
be attenuated by clearly knowing the disillusionment in the
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear, thereby
being the nibbida-nana.
Muncitukamyata-nana: the ninth vipassana-nana
When panna has realized more clearly the disillusionment in
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise, the panna, that desires to
transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear and fall away at
that instant, would arise. The panna that wants to transcend
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is the muncitukamyata-nana.
Patisankha-nana: the tenth vipassana-nana
When the panna that wishes to transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma
has arisen, the panna would then continue to examine the tilakkhana
(the three characteristics) of all sankhara-dhamma according to the
aspect of anicca-lakkhana, dukkha-lakkhana and anatta-lakkhana still
further. Then realize the anicca-lakkhana of all sankhara-dhamma
that arise and fall away by being ultimately inconstant realities:
momentary, unstable, changing, impermanent, meaningless. It would
fully realize the dukkha-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma that arise and
fall away by being constantly oppressive, inevitable, irremediable,
dangerous, or are realities that are not pleasant, unattractive. It
would clearly realize the anatta-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma that
arise and fall away in sequence as being lost, ending, no one's
possession, under no one's control. The panna that realizes fully the
three characteristics of all sankhara-dhamma is the patisankha-nana.
Sankharupekkha-nana: the eleventh vipassana-nana
When the panna that clearly realizes the tilakkhana of all
sankhara-dhamma has increased, it would attenuate the once apparent
permanence, pleasure, and the self, so that indifferent towards
sankhara-dhamma arises because there is clear knowledge that as long
as time has not come to fully realize and experience the
characteristics of nibbana, by having nibbana as arammana, then there
would continue to be examination of one of the tilakkhana as
arammana. The panna that clearly realizes the indifference towards
sankhara-dhamma that arise and fall away and appear is the
sankharupekkha-nana. Sankharupekkha-nana is the vipassana that has
attained the summit as vutthanagamini-panna, meaning the panna which
is the cause to transcend the status of the ordinary person when the
magga-vithi arises.
Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana
The anuloma-nana is a vipassana-nana in the magga-vithi. It is
favorable to the full realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. The
anuloma-nana comprises the three mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta,
namely parikamma, upacara and anuloma. The three instants of
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta have one of the tilakkhana as
arammana. That is to say, they have either the anicca-lakkhana of
sankhara-dhamma as arammana; the dukkha-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma
as arammana; or the anatta-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma as arammana,
which is favorable to the relinquish of arammana that are
sankhara-dhamma.
(Saccasankhepa, 357)For the tikkha-puggala, those whose panna is
strong and able to attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma rapidly, there are
two instants of anuloma-nana, omitting the instant of parikamma and
increasing the phala-citta to three instants.
Gotrabhu-nana: the thirteenth vipassana-nana
After the three instants of anuloma-nana (for the manda-puggala,
those who are slower to attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma than the
tikkha-puggala) or two instants for the tikkha-puggala had fallen
away, the gotrabhu-nana, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would
arise in sequence by turning towards nibbana as arammana and becoming
asevana-paccaya for the sotapatti-magga-citta to arise in sequence
with nibbana as arammana; by being the lokuttara-kusala-citta that
eradicates kilesa completely.
Normally the seven instants of the same process of javana-vithi
would have the same arammana. But in the magga-vithi the seven
instants of javana have different arammana as follows. The instants
of parikamma, upacara and anuloma have one of the three tilakkhana as
arammana but the gotrabhu, magga-citta, and two phala-cittas have
nibbana as arammana. Since the gotrabhu-citta is the first
mahakusala-citta with nibbana as arammana, it is, therefore, like the
avajjana of the sotapatti-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana, which
follows the gotrabhu-citta. Then the sotapatti-magga-citta would
perform the function of eradicating kilesa.
A passage in the Atthasalini Cittupadakandha Vannalokuttarakusala
and Visuddhimagga nanadassanavisuddhiniddesa compares the
anuloma-nana and gotrabhu-nana to a man who looks up at the moon in
the night, when the clouds hide the moon from view. Suddenly a gust
of wind blows away the dark clouds, another gust blows away the
scattered clouds, and still another the mist that covers the moon.
Thus he can see the cloudless moon. Nibbana is like the moon, the
three anuloma-nana the three gusts of wind, the gotrabhu-nana like
the man who sees the moon without the veiling clouds.
The three instants of anuloma-nana are like the three gusts of wind
which disperse the covering clouds from the moon, but which cannot
itself see the moon. The anuloma-nana can disperse the darkness that
covers sacca but cannot see nibbana and the man can see the moon
but cannot get rid of the clouds. In the same manner that the
gotrabhu-nana can see nibbana but cannot disperse the darkness or
kilesa.
Magga-nana: the fourteenth vipassana-nana
After the gotrabhu-citta has fallen away, the sotapatti-magga-citta
that arises in sequence would transcend the status of ordinary person
to that of an ariya-puggala. The sotapatti-magga-citta would arise
to eradicate kilesa completely according to the level of the
lokuttara-panna
Phala-nana: the fifteenth vipassana-nana
After the sotapatti-magga-citta, which is the lokuttara-kusala-citta,
has fallen away, it becomes paccaya for the sotapatti-phala-citta,
which is a lokuttara- vipaka-citta, to arise in sequence without any
other citta interposing. The lokuttara-kusala-citta is akaliko (with
immediate result), being kamma-paccaya that makes
lokuttara-vipaka-citta arise and fall away subsequently without any
other citta in between. The lokuttara-vipaka-citta is different from
other vipaka-cittas in performing javana-kicca following two or three
instants of lokuttara-kusala-citta in the magga-vithi and the
lokuttara-vipaka is the phala-citta that arises after the
magga-vithi, exclusively performing the javana-kicca, never
functioning as any other vipaka-citta.
Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana
After the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta
would arise in continuation after which the mano-dvara-vithi-citta
would arise and examine the reality that has just been fully realized
process by process, one examining the instant of magga-citta, another
the phala-citta, another the kilesa that has been eradicated, still
another the remaining kilesa and finally nibbana.
For those who attain arahanta-magga and arahata-phala, there is no
examination of the rest of the kilesa because the arahanta-magga-citta
eradicates all the kilesa completely, without any remnants.
In some places the 16 vipassana-nana are manifested as 9
vipassana-nana, which are balava-nana, as follows:
1) Udayabbaya-nana
2) Bhanga-nana
3) Bhaya-nana
4) Adinava-nana
5) Nibbida-nana
6) Muncitukamyata-nana
7) Patisankha-nana
8) Sankharupekkha-nana
9) Anuloma-nana
In some places 10 vipassana-nana are manifested, beginning with the
sammasana-nana up to anuloma-nana. The reason that the
vipassana-nana is manifested from the first to the anuloma-nana is
that it gradually becomes sharper and stronger until they are
favorable to having nibbana as arammana.
(End quote)
Not to get sidetracked from our main issue, the bhaya-nana is not
about dosa as such but knowledge about the dangers of illusions when
reality has been experienced as such up to the point of
vipassana-nana arising to higher levels. Fear must be studied as
such, another form of dosa, in order for knowledge of realities as
they truly are to increase, not as a sign of wisdom arising in
itself. I would be interested to know if there are passages in the
Tipitaka to counter this, and would thank you in advance if you could
give us the references,
Anumodana in your studies,
Amara
2566
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 7:54am
Subject: Re: Study time !
Dear Amara,
> Happy New Year, Alex!
Happy New Year to you, too. :-)
> I hope you have had time to read some of
> new booklets in our website as well?
Yes, I did. I like the Birth, Age, Illness, and Death very much.
I read the Master Avengers, too.
Thank you for your hard work.
> Shinlin is here on the list, her e-mail is .
I'll write to her right now. Thank you.
> I almost wish your studies give you
> lots of questions just so we could discuss them!
Again, thank you. :-) I hope that I won't become a pest. Be
sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest Control Unit. :-)
Anumodana,
Alex Tran
2567 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Dear dhd,
Greetings for the new year. You wrote:
> My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at
> some point
> in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the
> right
> direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that
> the
> practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice
> has
> advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear"
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of
> fear is a
> signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that
> the
> meditator has indeed made good progress.
This is interesting. I think that with the new meditation
schools that began in the 20th century many ideas about what is
indicative of vipassana-nana have come about.
Is fear really an indicator of progress; can it mean someone has
reached balava-vipassana?
Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they can only arise
with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling.
According to the visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage of 'terror',
an advanced stage of vipassana: "but does the knowledge of
appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It does not fear
for it is simply the mere judgement that past formations have
ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease...
it is called 'appearance as terror' only because formations in
all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being bound for
destruction.."endquote
Fear may still arise even to a sotapanna when there is not
maha-kusala citta but insight into anatta tends away from fear
because there is less clinging to the idea of anything that is
substantial to protect. There may still be fear at any time
during the long, long process of developing satipatthana but I
think the idea that this indicates progress is just as likely to
mislead as the idea that a calm, concentrated feeling is a sign
of insight.
Robert
2568 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243
Dear Robert,
A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for providing such
wonderful inspiration and understanding from all your letters to our group.
I don't often participate with replies to the group, but I eagerly look
forward to opening my computer each morning and reading all the letters that
have come through. Your writings especcially have often provided some of the
paccaya for sati to arise.
With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
2569 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:13am
Subject: Re: Study time !
- I hope that I won't become a pest. Be
> sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest Control Unit.
Dear Alex,
If you did I would probably make you my pet pest! I would never call
the pest control over anyone on the list, although being a pestilent
pen pusher myself I might have caused some people who cannot take my
grim jokes to flee... I just hope that what I consider my frankness
doesn't turn out to be two of Gayan's vancaka, as you might recall:
21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti
kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person
who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the
person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning
the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh
words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may
cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus
on the person rather than on the deed.
the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala
or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it.
22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti
kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it
is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer .
Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha.
But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others.
And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the
former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil
deeds., thereby abusing their own mind.
Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings
and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to
condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils
without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata)
and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala
dhammas.
(I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word
for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?)
(end quote)
If you find my pestilent side repelling, please scream, in the
meantime lets' try to walk the path together,
Amara
2570 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:18am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 243
> A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for providing
such
> wonderful inspiration and understanding from all your letters to our
group.
> I don't often participate with replies to the group, but I eagerly
look
> forward to opening my computer each morning and reading all the
letters that
> have come through. Your writings especcially have often provided
some of the
> paccaya for sati to arise.
Dear Robert,
Betty's absolutely right, and a very happy birthday indeed!!!
Anumodana in all the great kusala in a great dhamma friend,
Amara
2571 From: Sukinder Narula
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: List of Books
Dear friends,
Jonothan has requested me to print out a list of books available at
the foundation. Here it is:-
1. Realities and Concepts.
2. Letters from Nina.
3. Understanding Reality.(En/Th)
4. Abhidhamma in Daily Life.
5. Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka.
6. Mental Development in Daily Life.(En/Th). A set of four books as
follows:-
a.) The Greatest Blessings.
b.) Death
c.) The Eighhtfold Path.
d.) Tranquil Meditation and Vipassana.
The (En/Th) means that these books are half in English and half in
Thai (one facing the other side by side).
I understand that Jonothan and Sarah have kept aside funds at the
foundation for the purpose of sending tapes as well as books to any
interested persons. Also Shin has offered help with this matter. I
felt however, that since any working system might not materialize
soon enough, my thoughts are that, in the mean time I could get the
books from the foundation and post them myself. You could mail me
privately and let me know which books you need.
Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't mind me doing this
without prior consultation, I just thought,"why wait?!"
Metta,
Sukin
2572 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 5:11pm
Subject: Re: List of Books
> Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't mind me doing this
> without prior consultation, I just thought,"why wait?!"
Dear Sukin, and everyone,
Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, and everyone's as well!!!
So I guess we have two choices for the books and tapes, either you
could contact Sukin or the address Jonothan gave in his earlier
message. (What luxury, I wish I had this when I was living abroad!)
For contributions to the printing of the 'Summary', please contact
Shin for now.
Again, anumodana for all the kusala cetana,
Amara
2573 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 6:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: List of Books
Dear Sukin,
I'd just like to ditto all Amara's comments below. We
really enjoyed meeting you in Bangkok and appreciate
your keen interest in dhamma and generosity to share
it.
Sarah
--- amara chay wrote: >
> > Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't
> mind me doing this
> > without prior consultation, I just thought,"why
> wait?!"
>
>
> Dear Sukin, and everyone,
>
> Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, and
> everyone's as well!!!
>
> So I guess we have two choices for the books and
> tapes, either you
> could contact Sukin or the address Jonothan gave in
> his earlier
> message. (What luxury, I wish I had this when I was
> living abroad!)
>
> For contributions to the printing of the 'Summary',
> please contact
> Shin for now.
>
> Again, anumodana for all the kusala cetana,
>
> Amara
>
>
>
>
2574 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 6:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243
Dear Betty,
Thank you. Sarah mentioned to me off-list that your son (the
bhikkhu) is now visiting the foundation . Very nice that both of
you can benefit and also appreciate each others kusala.
Robert
--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for
> providing such
> wonderful
2575 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243
Dear Robert,
Happy late B'day too and also ditto Betty's and the
others' comments. Many thanks for your good
friendship, support, encouragement and inspiration to
us all.
So now we know, in furture years we can celebrate the
anniversary of the list, the New Year AND yr b'day
together!
Hope you're having a good day and both you and the
list have a good year ahead!
Best wishes,
Sarah
2576 From: Shaiu-in Lin
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 10:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 245
Dear Dhamma Friends,
My email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026077053012134048234051209113079 or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020237194237036158085064231090136058066192197079172142172194143142083 If any one
would like to contribute anything for the printing of the book, pls feel
free to contact me.
with regards,
Shin Lin
2577
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 10:45pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 243
Dear Moderators,
I mean Dear Sarah, Jonothan, Robert, Amara, ... :-)
Happy Anniversary of the List. Happy New Year. And Happy
Birthday, Robert.
Anumodana for your great work. With such kusala citta, you
already bypass many life times on the way to the Goal.
Anumodana,
Alex Tran
2578 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:07pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 243
> Dear Moderators,
>
> I mean Dear Sarah, Jonothan, Robert, Amara, ... :-)
Dear Alex,
Thanks for including me in the great list, I am just a member like
yourself and you will have seen that I am not so 'moderate' either!
I look forward to learning more from the list and thank you all in
advance,
=^_^=
_/\_
Amara
2579 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: new year's greeting where it belongs
Dear Khun Amara,
--- amara chay wrote:
> the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one
> gets distracted by
> the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call
> anything that
> distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating
> knowledge of
> things as they really are.
...
> it
> falls away and would not arise when one has lobha
> for it, in other
> words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance
> to its arising.
Thanks for these excellent points and for the timely
quote from Khun Sujin.
mike
2580 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !
Dear Khun Amara and Alex,
--- amara chay wrote:
--- wrote:
> - I hope that I won't become a pest. Be
> > sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest
> Control Unit.
>
> Dear Alex,
>
> If you did I would probably make you my pet pest! I
> would never call
> the pest control over anyone on the list,
[lucky for me--i would've been exterminated long ago]
Nice use of the vangcakas!!! Great tools, aren't
they?
Another Pest Heard From,
mike
2581 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digest Number 243
Hear, hear!
mike
--- amara chay wrote:
>
> > A very happy birthday to you and especially
> anumodhana for providing
> such
> > wonderful inspiration and understanding from all
> your letters to our
> group.
> > I don't often participate with replies to the
> group, but I eagerly
> look
> > forward to opening my computer each morning and
> reading all the
> letters that
> > have come through. Your writings especcially have
> often provided
> some of the
> > paccaya for sati to arise.
>
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> Betty's absolutely right, and a very happy birthday
> indeed!!!
>
> Anumodana in all the great kusala in a great dhamma
> friend,
>
> Amara
>
>
2582 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they
> can only arise
> with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling.
> According to the visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage
> of 'terror',
> an advanced stage of vipassana: "but does the
> knowledge of
> appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It
> does not fear
> for it is simply the mere judgement that past
> formations have
> ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones
> will cease...
> it is called 'appearance as terror' only because
> formations in
> all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being bound
> for
> destruction..." endquote
Interesting!
> Fear may still arise even to a sotapanna when there
> is not
> maha-kusala citta but insight into anatta tends away
> from fear
> because there is less clinging to the idea of
> anything that is
> substantial to protect. There may still be fear at
> any time
> during the long, long process of developing
> satipatthana but I
> think the idea that this indicates progress is just
> as likely to
> mislead as the idea that a calm, concentrated
> feeling is a sign
> of insight.
Excellent point--though the latter, I think, is the
more dangerous of the two.
Thanks yet again for correcting and re-correcting my
conclusions on these matters...
mike
2583 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Hello, Dan!
--- wrote:
> My point was that fear is bound to arise for a
> meditator at some point
> in the practice even if that practice is properly
> going in the right
> direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable
> indicator that the
> practice has gone astray.
You're right, of course.
> For example, only after
> the practice has
> advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge
> of fear"
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the
> arising of fear is a
> signpost along straight-and-narrow journey,
> indicating that the
> meditator has indeed made good progress. Another
> example is Buddha's
> account of the day of his enlighenment. In the
> forest, he was
> assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded
> wisely each time fear
> arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was
> was so near to
> enlightenment.
Excellent point!
> If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than
> aversion, then it is a
> vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear
> rather than its mere
> arising that is a more proper guide to whether the
> practice has gone
> awry.
Right you are, sir. Thanks for helping to clarify my
thinking on this point!
mike
2584 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List of Books
Dear Sukin,
--- Sukinder Narula wrote:
> The (En/Th) means that these books are half in
> English and half in
> Thai (one facing the other side by side).
Is the Thai romanized, by any chance?
> I understand that Jonothan and Sarah have kept aside
> funds at the
> foundation for the purpose of sending tapes as well
> as books to any
> interested persons. Also Shin has offered help with
> this matter. I
> felt however, that since any working system might
> not materialize
> soon enough, my thoughts are that, in the mean time
> I could get the
> books from the foundation and post them myself.
Nice to hear from you again, Sukin. Anumodana for
your efforts, and a Happy New Year to you, Sir!
mike
2585 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:41am
Subject: Hari tau hou!
Hi Amara and Leonardo!
"Hari tau hou" would be a direct Maaori transliteration of Happy new year.
Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement. In
addition,
time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past filled
one's
consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe. The
contents of one's
consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert mistakes
made in the past. The future was behind the person looking into the past,
unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic, and,
deities.
For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters) who
foretold the
coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of building
apparatus
which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen implements, if
I remember rightly.
In this lifetime, I have Maaori, Scottish, and French descent. I was brought
up as a New Zealander, which since British colonialisation during the 1800s
has been dominated by the changing culture of the British coloniser. So,
my first language is English and I'm a bit rusty concerning Maaori. I have
only ever known a little Maaori, enough to pick up bits and pieces in a
conversation.
Currently, Maaori culture can be recognised as going through a renaissance.
With changing ideas concerning gender, disability, sexuality, age, class,
in short, anything that was previously considered as a inferior difference
to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real
awakening
to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the idea that
the
"self" is a conditioned reality.
Ended up saying a bit more then initially intended, but your question caused
these
other things to arise.
Metta, Jody.
-----Original Message-----
From: amara chay
Sent: 12/31/00 3:37 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !
Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!!
I was just thinking of you! And wondering how you said this in your
languages!
Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings,
Amara
2586 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 5:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Dear Mike.
Just a picky point on yours which Dan has helpfully
requoted:
> To which you responded:
> > I don't mean argue with your point here, though
> I'm
> > not sure I understand it. I think of fear as just
> > aversion toward an idea of some future
> > unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
> > domanassa. The only forms of aversion I can
> remember
> > the Buddha commending were shame and fear with
> regard
> > to misconduct
You are right when you say that fear is a kind of dosa
(aversion) and therefore it's always akusala
(unwholesome). Robert and Amara have taken up this
point to discuss further with Dan.
The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa
(aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to hiri
and ottappa often translated as moral shame and fear
of blame? From the English translations it can sound
as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct
which is why we have to study the meaning of the Pali.
The tralnslation as fear can be misleading. S'times
hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious
scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in blame.
Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'.
In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas (wholesome or
beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta (wholesome
consciousness) so there can be no aversion involved.
Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness) and
ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the danger
of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa) are
shamelessness and recklessness. The more undestanding
sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a
wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be
developed. In the Vis., it talks about them as the
proximate condition for sila:
...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa) are
in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when
they are not, it neither arises nor persists...
I highly recommend the chapter on these in Cetasikas
by NVG which I think you've bought. (Btw for anyone
else, this book has to be purchased, it's not
available from Bkk).
Hope this helps and apologies if I misunderstood you
as always!
rgds
Sarah
2587 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 6:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs
Dear Bruce,
I really enjoyed your post below. Firstly it's very
funny indeed and more importantly it showed yr
appreciation and understanding that any time is the
right time for developing sati! Great!
--- bruce wrote: > robt
was kind enough to point out my absolute lack
> of mindfullness in
> posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy,
> and i apologize...this
> was certainly meant for dsg:
>
There are a few of us who regularly press that zap
button at the wrong time and place....When I read
other mistakes it reassures me to know that I'm not
alone in this! (I'm not pretending there's anything
kusala here!) At that moment of embrarrassment or
shock when we discover the mistake there can be sati
too! > =====================
>
>
>
i am undergoing
> severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely
> concentrate on these sentences
> long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours
> with no cigarettes and
> counting, and it is some genuine akusala
> vipaka...needless to say, this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to
> understand the moment:
Yes, however wiped out one feels or however 'blurry'
the realities, sati can arise and will arise if there
are moments of understanding at these times. This is
why concentration as we understand it is not the key,
but understanding is! There will be rt concentration
automatically if there is rt understanding even when
we can't form a sentence! I once asked K.Sujin about
sati if we end up w/ Alzheimer's disease and she
replied that there can still be sati and panna in
between all the other experiences. Anytime!
it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my
> current unpleasant feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and
> lasting, and much nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the
> feelings as they arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so
> swiftly that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current
> flow by...
>
Yes, I agree...all those stories and dosa that make it
so hard! Yes, too, useless to try and DO anything...
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal
> with tanha and upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the
> moment....
>
I love it! Hope you don't injure yourself seriously in
that collision!
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading
> all the posts, and
> getting more useful information than i thought
> possible...
>
Bruce, pls do keep us posted on yr progress w/ yr
great style (I mean nicotine withdrawal as well as the
loftier progress). If the sentences are left
unfinished, we'll understand!
> thanks for so much good discussion...
>
THANK YOU!
Sarah
p.s. give yourself a few other treats to help
compensate- cream cakes or whatever else appeals....I
remember Jonothan put on lots of weight when he gave
up ciggies (ages ago now) but he lost it later when
his 'system' settled down to the new nicotine-free
world.
2588
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:07am
Subject: Re: Study time !
> If you find my pestilent side repelling, please scream, in the
> meantime lets' try to walk the path together,
Dear Amara,
I would never be able to complain about anyone in this list
because I've learned a lot from everyone. I think that you are
great, Amara. With your work on the Website, and your contribution
here, you are indeed a true dhamma friend. Anumodana to your work
and effort.
Thank you.
Metta,
Alex Tran
2589 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta
Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the helpful comments.
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa
> (aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to
> hiri
> and ottappa often translated as moral shame and fear
> of blame?
Very likely, yes. I first heard this a long time ago.
The (very decent) monk I heard it from was of a
somewhat anti-scholastic bent, and was possibly not
very careful of the translation.
> From the English translations it can sound
> as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct
> which is why we have to study the meaning of the
> Pali.
This is the way I took him to mean it. He also placed
a great deal of emphasis on sila (much more than on
samadhi or pañña) and I suspect would not have minded
people (monks especially!) feeling fear associated
with the idea of akusala kamma--though I may have
misunderstood him.
> The translation as fear can be misleading. S'times
> hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious
> scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in blame.
> Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'.
Well, these do make sense, don't they? In fact,
'seeing danger in the slightest transgression', for
example, isn't exactly the same as fear. In fact, I
find it reassuring, a sort of sense of security.
> In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas (wholesome
> or
> beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta
> (wholesome
> consciousness) so there can be no aversion involved.
Well then, I guess we can be sure that, if we're
experiencing domanassa, we're not experiencing hiri or
ottappa. Interestingly, that was the downfall of this
monk's dhamma talk; it tended to (I think) try to
inspire fear and shame, kind of like a puritanical
fire-and-brimstone sermon. Never seemed quite right,
to me...
> Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness)
> and
> ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the danger
> of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa) are
> shamelessness and recklessness. The more
> undestanding
> sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a
> wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be
> developed.
I guess if you see (and heed) the warning sign, you
don't have to experience the fear of driving off the
cliff!
> In the Vis., it talks about them as the
> proximate condition for sila:
>
> ...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa)
> are
> in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when
> they are not, it neither arises nor persists...
>
> I highly recommend the chapter on these in Cetasikas
> by NVG which I think you've bought.
Yes, I do have a copy, but have to finish AIDL first!
This may take a while (at the rate I'm going...!)
> Hope this helps
Definitely!
> and apologies if I misunderstood you
> as always!
Not at all--thanks again.
Rgds back at you!
mike
2590
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: Study time !
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara and Alex,
>
> [lucky for me--i would've been exterminated long ago]
>
> Nice use of the vangcakas!!! Great tools, aren't
> they?
>
> Another Pest Heard From,
>
> mike
Dear Mike,
If you were a pest, you would be the most fruitful, gentle and
considerate one in the list. It means you can never be one. As a
matter of fact, I feel very humble with your humility.
Thank you, Sir.
Anumodana to your beautiful contribution, Sir
Alex
2591 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 10:51am
Subject: Re: List of Books
> Is the Thai romanized, by any chance?
Dear Mike,
Sorry, it's not! Normal Thai is never Romanized, unlike several
other Asian languages nowadays- and the alphabets are three times as
complicated as the Roman- over 40 consonants and 30+ vowels, placed
in all four directions: above, below, left and right of the
consonants, and to make it more interesting, you have the 5 'musical
levels' + some extra linguistic signs!!!
A lot of fun!
Amara
2592 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:21am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person
Dear Jody,
Sorry this is so late! I'm trying to catch up...
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> > Sent: 12/10/00 1:18 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a
> Great Person
>
> In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will
> not appear to
> those that have not accumulated the right
> conditions?
I don't know. I am told that past kamma has a lot to
do with whether or not you hear the Buddhdhamma.
Probably others in the group can explain this much
better than I can.
> And is the
> "great person" an araahant?
I don't think so--it seems too much directed to one
cultivating the path--don't you think so? The arahat
is finished with that.
mike
2593 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI
Dear Sarah,
Catching up again...
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
> citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
> from killing for example), there is sati at the
> level
> of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
> these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
> object. There is giving to a person, though there is
> no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no
> understanding of the value of giving at that moment
> either, so although the wholesome cittas are
> accumulated they are not developed. Is that
> confusing?
Ah--so, if the dana had been performed with sati
arising with the dana, rather than with the panyatti,
the citta (what citta, by the way) would have been
'accumulated' and developed?
> At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in
> this case, even though the object is a concept,
> there
> is understanding at this level and thus the value of
> samatha is known for a moment and developed. For
> example, there may be metta now which is directed to
> a
> person (concept) and understood. There is still no
> awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot
> be
> developed.
So, again, if the sati arose with the moment of
samatha (-citta?) , rather than with the moment of
panyatti (-citta?), it could 'be
developed'--otherwise, not?
I think this is all not so much confusing as beyond me
at this point. Maybe I should revisit all this after
reading a LOT more NVG...!
> At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about
> the development of right awareness of realities in
> order that the eightfold path may be developed),
> sati
> must be aware over and over and over again of namas
> as
> namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion
> about what is experiencing and what is experienced.
Understood.
> So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is
> experiencing visible object, no self in it.
> Awareness
> begins to be aware of it so that understanding can
> develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is
> very
> ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or
> sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is
> now.
> Nothing special. Then there is another reality and
> another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or
> wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the
> clinging to self. No awareness.
In other words, if (after sati arises) upadana arises,
sati doesn't arise...?
> Visible object is the reality which is seen now.
> Again
> when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary.
> As
> awareness and understanding develop (together) they
> 'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and
> begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment.
> Anatta is not something different from the seeing
> and
> visible object appearing now. The nature of these
> realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or
> special
> experiences.
Right.
> As Robert has pointed out, we don't
> have
> to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels
> of
> insight when there is so little awareness and
> understanding of the realities appearing now.
Agreed!
> Being
> aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to
> understanding the difference between them when they
> appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are
> celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a
> meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about
> to
> be!
Right...
> So in between the countless moments of akusala citta
> arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of
> different kinds with different levels of sati
> accompanying them.
> I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
> all the excellent posts in recent days.
Certainly, there is. And even if it didn't, these
points do need to be heard again and again, don't
they?
> I look f/w
> to
> hearing from you or anyone else.
Thanks as always...
mike
2594 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:08pm
Subject: Re: Hari tau hou!
Dear Jody,
Thank you for the fascinating details of Maaori culture, about which
I know very little although I am a great admirer of Dame Kiri Te
Kanawa!
I have always thought that religions and beliefs, and science came
from people trying to find reasons for their and their surrounding's
existance and mechanisms. Which is why the two regimes were at first
inseparable: the earliest universities were in religious compounds.
In the western world they separated when science disproved things
taught by religious beliefs, costing several earlier scholars' lives
along the way: the earth is not unique, the center of the universe,
nor even the solar complex; nor is it flat, etc. Which causes much
dilemma for scientist who want to be good Christians even today.
Luckily the Buddha's teachings has yet to be proven wrong, although
translations often cause a lot of confusion and unconscionable
interpretations even more misunderstanding. Einstien, who explained
that light was made of particles or quanta, instead of rays of waves,
and went on to say that all things were indeed composed of particles,
echoed what was taught 2500 years ago by the Buddha, who explained
that all things were composed of groups of rupa, the smallest,
indivisible group of which is the kalapa. At CERN, where a tunnel is
built underground on the border of four European countries
(Switzerland, Germany, France and Italy) to split quarks, they found
it to have eight components also (the same number as the smallest
kalapa), after the separation of which it disappears. By the way E.
once said that if ever there were a religion for a scientist, it
would be Buddhism, or something to that effect.
But the best thing about Buddhism is that one could always prove for
oneself what no other religion on earth teaches: that realities arise
and fall away and can be experienced through the six dvara,
even when we think of theories or read about them. Things are always
changing, whether on the atomic level or just now as we read this on
the screen, sight arises and change, as do things seen and heard and
felt, and especially thoughts, so different from all other dvara and
yet able to experience all things through all the other senses. And
the knowledge of things as they really are could accumulate gradually
until levels of clear experience of them as such arises and a higher
level of wisdom reached that can realize that there is indeed no self
at all.
Still it was wonderful to read about all the 'conventional truths'
(as opposed to paramatthadhamma)you wrote of, especially in your
nice style of writing, which causes a lot of lobha in me! (Again,
my own accumulations!) Looking forward to more,
Amara
> Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement.
In
> addition,
> time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past
filled
> one's
> consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe.
The
> contents of one's
> consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert
mistakes
> made in the past. The future was behind the person looking into the
past,
> unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic,
and,
> deities.
> For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters)
who
> foretold the
> coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of
building
> apparatus
> which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen
implements, if
> I remember rightly.
>
> In this lifetime, I have Maaori, Scottish, and French descent. I was
brought
> up as a New Zealander, which since British colonialisation during
the 1800s
> has been dominated by the changing culture of the British coloniser.
So,
> my first language is English and I'm a bit rusty concerning Maaori.
I have
> only ever known a little Maaori, enough to pick up bits and pieces
in a
> conversation.
>
> Currently, Maaori culture can be recognised as going through a
renaissance.
> With changing ideas concerning gender, disability, sexuality, age,
class,
> in short, anything that was previously considered as a inferior
difference
> to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real
> awakening
> to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the
idea that
> the
> "self" is a conditioned reality.
>
> Ended up saying a bit more then initially intended, but your
question caused
> these
> other things to arise.
>
> Metta, Jody.
2595 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]
Dear Sarah,
Still trying to catch up. Everyone, please excuse me
and disregard this if you find the topic out of place.
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> The point of this was to show that even after many
> years as a monk, the accumulations don't change.
> Khun
> Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
> live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
> then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One
> needs
> to know one's accumulations very well indeed.
Shouldn't that be the goal of us all? How could we
have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
the life of an arahat?
> > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?)
> will
> > affect past accumulations. However, new
> > accumulations
> > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts
> will
> > certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> > vipaka--right?
>
> Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
> will protect one from (performing) akusala
> kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds).
Granted, observation without understanding will not
result in understanding and its attendant eradication
of ignorance. But if the precepts are strictly
observed, even without understanding, how can akusala
acts be said to have been committed?
> Like now, one can
> try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
> sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever
> the
> situation.
Certainly not.
> K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules?
It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
to adopt them. This is my central point. It may be
true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that
large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked. (It
would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced
to only the instructions he gave to householders, it
would fit conveniently into a handbook!) I'm not even
saying this isn't true. You've all come a long way
toward convincing me that it IS true. If so, out with
the vinaya and most of the suttanta. (The dhamma as
the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from
the vinaya--the dhammavinaya). So we have nothing
left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
suttas, after only half the sasana. Maybe that really
is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
eventually. At this point, the enormity of that
conclusion is more than I'm prepared for.
> Aren't
> 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed
> out
> that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
> precepts too
Certainly. I kept only eight for nine months, and it
was sometimes very stressful.
> and A. Cha's article which someone
> kindly
> highlighted was a good reminder of this.
Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful
than the householders life (he often joked about
this).
> The friend
> we
> mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
> to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because
> he
> found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
> his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri
> Lanka to take robes again correctly.
Excellent!
> > > I might make similar comments with regard to
> your
> > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > > life....isn't this thinking?
> >
> > To be sure! And I'm not actually complaining
> about
> > these things. In fact, I have a great job, good
> > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> > thing. I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> > Alan was, in my own way. More to the point,
> So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
> we stay as a monk for this life, what about next
> life?
Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different
answers to that question for monks and householders
(except in the case of individual instructions to
extraordinary householders).
> > > What about awareness
> > > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > > conversations,
> > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> > as
> > > real at these times!
> >
> > Of course! And by the way, a monk's life is just
> as
> > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's.
> > Contrary
> > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> > that
> > simply living the 'holy life' does much of
> anything
> > to
> > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way
> of
> > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.
>
> Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
> life...many duties and obligations and listening to
> dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
> possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to
> follow
> dhamma!
True! As you know, that's the hardest (material)
thing for me to relinquish, at present...
..... When we had our discussion on this
> theme
> we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina
> pointed
> out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
> attended that day.
True. Also not appropriate, unless the Buddha's
instructions to the monks of his day are, in fact,
obsolete--as I admit, however reluctantly, they may
be.
> > This
> > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly
> stated)
> > motives: That it's a great job that needs to be
> > done,
> Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the
> most
> important job to be done.
You're right, of course, but I didn't mean 'job' in
the sense of 'task'--I meant it in the sense of
'livelihood'.
> Being aware and
> understanding reality now is more important than any
> idea of a particular lifestyle.
To be sure! However, I think it's clear that the
Buddha taught that, at least in his day, the
'lifestyle' of a bhikku was the best possible resort
for cultivating awareness and understanding reality.
> K.Sujin asked why we
> are so attached to the yellow cloth?
I'm not, at all. Robes are just a practical solution
to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable
minimum. I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them
to be anything else (aside for some peripheral
symbolic uses).
> This is not to
> say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha
> as
> preserver of the Teachings through the ages.
True, but it MAY be obsolete, just the same. After
all, we have books and computers now...
> > and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> > kamma-pathas.
> superficially if at all....
Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to
not committing kamma-pathas.
> Jonothan gave the example
> of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does
> nothing
> to eradiacate the real problem.
True, but an equivocation--the real problem you're
referring to is ignorance; the real problem above was
akusala kamma.
> By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> > a
> > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything
> we
> > want to do. I realize that this intention is
> > conditioned almost entirely by the three
> unwholesome
> > roots. That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> > has
> > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> > the
> > days of the arahats. However, I don't think that
> > this
> > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do
> you?
> > If I waited until my motives were completely pure,
> I
> > would never have performed any act of dana, sila
> or
> > bhavana.
>
> Well, different moments and different cittas as
> usual.
> i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve
> the
> Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing
> more
> understanding. These you are doing now with your
> excellent contributions here.
I truly think you're too kind. I don't see myself
being able to guide others for years, if ever. As for
the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation
comes just from having read the suttas--the
instructions are quite unambiguous. Maybe they're
also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good
intentions regarding the rest are probably out the
window too...
> > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> > get
> > something going.
> >
> Well, actually you have posted it to the list
I did, didn't I--absent-minded as usual.
> and
> pls
> keep up yr responses to the list.
Are you sure? The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
can't help thinking it might be better to continue
off-list, for those who are interested.
Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me
to continually re-examine my thinking on this...
mike
2596 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:50pm
Subject: Re: Study time !
> With your work on the Website, and your contribution
> here, you are indeed a true dhamma friend. Anumodana to your work
> and effort.
Dear Alex,
Thank you, I'm glad to be your friend,
Amara
2597 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:59pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]
> Are you sure? The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
> can't help thinking it might be better to continue
> off-list, for those who are interested.
Dear Mike,
I agree with Sarah, of course! Keep up the reasonings, anyone bored
could just pass on to the next message, so keep them coming,
Amara
2598 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !
Dear Alex,
You ARE too kind.
--- wrote:
> If you were a pest, you would be the most
> fruitful,
A fruit fly, maybe? This reminds me of a funny story:
When I lived at the Foreign Yogis' Quarters at a
meditation center in Rangoon, someone once left a
cantaloupe as an offering for the monks. Before I
could get to it to offer it to them, the fruit flies
found it and it was pretty well infested. I couldn't
resist (well, I've told you my meditation was no
good--I had to do SOMETHING)--I wrote on a slip of
paper, "TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW--FRUIT FLIES LIKE A
CANTALOUPE" and left it on the table. What a
controversy this started! I hadn't reflected that I
was the only native English-speaker there. I was
observing silence and everyone wanted an
explanation--everyone was discussing the meaning--you
could've cut the papañca with a knife...
Thanks for the kind words--just thought you might find
this amusing...
Apologies, Moderators!
mike
2599 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]
Dear mike,
Some points:
1. none of the sutta or vinaya is obsolete. The bhikkhu sangha
is still valid. I may join the Bhikkhu sangha myself oneday, who
can tell the future. Either way I study the vinaya at times and
find it very useful.
2. If one is a monk, understands correctly and follows the
vinaya correctly and strictly then there is no commiting of
akusala kamma pattha. Also if a layperson understands correctly
and keeps the 5 precepts strictly there is no committing of
akusala kamma pattha. But there can still be an idea of "I" who
is doing all this; superficial, as sarah said.
3. This is not a layperson oriented group as far as I am
concerned. Whenever I went to listen to khun sujin in wat
boworniwet there were always monks and nuns in the audience.
Robert
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
>
> Still trying to catch up. Everyone, please excuse me
> and disregard this if you find the topic out of place.
>
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott
> wrote:
>
> > The point of this was to show that even after many
> > years as a monk, the accumulations don't change.
> > Khun
> > Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
> > live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
> > then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One
> > needs
> > to know one's accumulations very well indeed.
>
> Shouldn't that be the goal of us all? How could we
> have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
> the life of an arahat?
>
> > > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?)
> > will
> > > affect past accumulations. However, new
> > > accumulations
> > > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts
> > will
> > > certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> > > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> > > vipaka--right?
> >
> > Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
> > will protect one from (performing) akusala
> > kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds).
>
> Granted, observation without understanding will not
> result in understanding and its attendant eradication
> of ignorance. But if the precepts are strictly
> observed, even without understanding, how can akusala
> acts be said to have been committed?
>
> > Like now, one can
> > try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
> > sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever
> > the
> > situation.
>
> Certainly not.
>
> > K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules?
>
> It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
> to adopt them. This is my central point. It may be
> true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that
> large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked. (It
> would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced
> to only the instructions he gave to householders, it
> would fit conveniently into a handbook!) I'm not even
> saying this isn't true. You've all come a long way
> toward convincing me that it IS true. If so, out with
> the vinaya and most of the suttanta. (The dhamma as
> the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from
> the vinaya--the dhammavinaya). So we have nothing
> left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> suttas, after only half the sasana. Maybe that really
> is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> eventually. At this point, the enormity of that
> conclusion is more than I'm prepared for.
>
> > Aren't
> > 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed
> > out
> > that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
> > precepts too
>
> Certainly. I kept only eight for nine months, and it
> was sometimes very stressful.
>
> > and A. Cha's article which someone
> > kindly
> > highlighted was a good reminder of this.
>
> Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful
> than the householders life (he often joked about
> this).
>
> > The friend
> > we
> > mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
> > to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because
> > he
> > found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
> > his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri
> > Lanka to take robes again correctly.
>
> Excellent!
>
> > > > I might make similar comments with regard to
> > your
> > > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > > > life....isn't this thinking?
> > >
> > > To be sure! And I'm not actually complaining
> > about
> > > these things. In fact, I have a great job, good
> > > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> > > thing. I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> > > Alan was, in my own way. More to the point,
>
> > So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
> > we stay as a monk for this life, what about next
> > life?
>
> Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different
> answers to that question for monks and householders
> (except in the case of individual instructions to
> extraordinary householders).
>
> > > > What about awareness
> > > > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > > > conversations,
> > > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> > > as
> > > > real at these times!
> > >
> > > Of course! And by the way, a monk's life is just
> > as
> > > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's.
> > > Contrary
> > > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> > > that
> > > simply living the 'holy life' does much of
> > anything
> > > to
> > > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way
> > of
> > > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.
> >
> > Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
> > life...many duties and obligations and listening to
> > dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
> > possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to
> > follow
> > dhamma!
>
> True! As you know, that's the hardest (material)
> thing for me to relinquish, at present...
>
> ..... When we had our discussion on this
> > theme
> > we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina
> > pointed
> > out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
> > attended that day.
>
> True. Also not appropriate, unless the Buddha's
> instructions to the monks of his day are, in fact,
> obsolete--as I admit, however reluctantly, they may
> be.
>
> > > This
> > > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly
> > stated)
> > > motives: That it's a great job that needs to be
> > > done,
>
> > Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the
> > most
> > important job to be done.
>
> You're right, of course, but I didn't mean 'job' in
> the sense of 'task'--I meant it in the sense of
> 'livelihood'.
>
> > Being aware and
> > understanding reality now is more important than any
> > idea of a particular lifestyle.
>
> To be sure! However, I think it's clear that the
> Buddha taught that, at least in his day, the
> 'lifestyle' of a bhikku was the best possible resort
> for cultivating awareness and understanding reality.
>
> > K.Sujin asked why we
> > are so attached to the yellow cloth?
>
> I'm not, at all. Robes are just a practical solution
> to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable
> minimum. I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them
> to be anything else (aside for some peripheral
> symbolic uses).
>
> > This is not to
> > say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha
> > as
> > preserver of the Teachings through the ages.
>
> True, but it MAY be obsolete, just the same. After
> all, we have books and computers now...
>
> > > and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> > > kamma-pathas.
>
> > superficially if at all....
>
> Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to
> not committing kamma-pathas.
>
> > Jonothan gave the example
> > of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does
> > nothing
> > to eradiacate the real problem.
>
> True, but an equivocation--the real problem you're
> referring to is ignorance; the real problem above was
> akusala kamma.
>
> > By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> > > a
> > > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything
> > we
> > > want to do. I realize that this intention is
> > > conditioned almost entirely by the three
> > unwholesome
> > > roots. That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> > > has
> > > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> > > the
> > > days of the arahats. However, I don't think that
> > > this
> > > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do
> > you?
> > > If I waited until my motives were completely pure,
> > I
> > > would never have performed any act of dana, sila
> > or
> > > bhavana.
> >
> > Well, different moments and different cittas as
> > usual.
> > i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve
> > the
> > Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing
> > more
> > understanding. These you are doing now with your
> > excellent contributions here.
>
> I truly think you're too kind. I don't see myself
> being able to guide others for years, if ever. As for
> the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation
> comes just from having read the suttas--the
> instructions are quite unambiguous. Maybe they're
> also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good
> intentions regarding the rest are probably out the
> window too...
>
> > > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> > > get
> > > something going.
> > >
> > Well, actually you have posted it to the list
>
> I did, didn't I--absent-minded as usual.
>
> > and
> > pls
> > keep up yr responses to the list.
>
> Are you sure? The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
> can't help thinking it might be better to continue
> off-list, for those who are interested.
>
> Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me
> to continually re-examine my thinking on this...
>
> mike
>
>
>
>