3000 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > thank you for the context of this meditator practicing in > Germany. I do not know which tradition of vipassana meditation > he is following. I know Dhiravamsa has led a retreat in > Germany yearly now for over 35 years (at Haus der Stille, near > Hamburg). Dear Jina, I hope he will join us so you could correspond with him as well here! I think there are several traditions in Germany also, and from what I heard they also have some very good translations of the Tipitaka, some dating from quite a while back. Khun Sujin's book, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', has also been translated into German a few years ago by a German lady with Nina Van Gorkom's help, copies are still available at the foundation. Sukin or Jonothan's friend could get them for anyone interested, by the way. Amara 3001 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > I consider your correspondent's statement: > > >I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me. > > to be along the lines of a directive. There are 4 general semantic classes > of sentences: statements, questions, directives, & exclamations. According > to 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language': "questions are > primarily used to seek information on a specific point" and "directives are > primarily used to instruct someone to do something". A request is a > pragmatic category of a directive. The syntactic class of sentences called > an imperative is typically used to express a directive such as: "Please send > me any information." It is possible however to express a directive using a > declarative such as: "I'd love a cup of tea." which is suggesting that > someone bring a cup of tea to the speaker -- a suggestion is another > pragmatic category of the directive. > > I read the full message (with names deleted) that you posted in response to > Jinavamsa which provides a better idea of the kind of information the writer > is seeking. I still don't see any questions, directly or indirectly, in the > message. But it is probable that the person writing the message has some > specific questions in mind and that the information you send him may help > him to answer some of these questions. Making distinctions in linguistic > usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas. The following is an > example of a directive that performs indirectly as a question: "Tell me what > you know about this group." which could also be put directly as a > question:"What do you know about this group?" > > I'm just giving you my perspective on the matter and I can understand that > you might read a dhamma question in between the lines. Dear Jim, Thank you again for the very clear analysis. As you say, 'Making distinctions in linguistic usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas.' which must be a matter of determining the questioner's intention (cetana cetasika), the purpose of the vaji-kamma or other communicative actions. As usual cetana must be the chief to produce kamma, as we all know. To my mind it is still more difficult to answer a question/request with the fourth kind of answer (by not answering) not knowing the exact intention of the other party as the Buddha would. Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? Looking forward to learning more, Amara 3002 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Jim, Your quote of the 4 types of Q & A- in the Dighanikaya comm is very clear and exactly what I was looking for. It answers the qu. I had about the first type too. Thanks. (They need to add this ref in our big new Pali dict.!) BTW, is this comm. translated into English? Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been published yet? I think it was Robert who said he wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised when I mentioned I'd heard this. Thanks, Sarah -- Jim Anderson wrote: > Amara wrote: > > The Dighanikaya commentary (DA ii 567) gives a > simple example for each of > the four types of questions and answers. > > 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no > > "Is the eye impermanent? (cakkhu.m aniccan ti)" is > to be answered > categorically with: "Yes, it is impermanent. (aama > aniccan ti)" > > 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically > > "Is only the eye impermanent? (anicca.m naama > cakkhun ti)" is to be answered > analytically with: "Not only the eye (but) also the > ear is impermanent and > the nose is impermanent.(na cakkhumeva sotampi > anicca.m ghaanampi > anicccan ti)" [I'm uncertain about how to translate > 'naama' in the question] > > 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a > counter-question > > "As the eye, so the ear; as the ear, so the eye. > (yathaa cakkhu.m tathaa > sotam; yathaa sota.m tathaa cakkhun ti)" is to be > counterquestioned: "In > what sense do you ask? (ken'a.t.thena pucchaasii > ti)" When "I ask in the > sense of seeing (dassan'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is > spoken it is to be > answered "No (na hii ti)."; when "I ask in the sense > of impermanent > (anicc'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken, it is to > be answered "Yes (aamaa > ti)". > > 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya -- to be set aside > (not to be answered) > > "Are the soul and the body the same? (ta.m jiiva.m > ta.m sariiran ti)" is to > be set aside with: "This is unanswered by the > Blessed One (avyaakatam eta.m > Bhagavataa ti). [For more examples of this type of > question see the > Avyaakatasa.myutta] > 3003 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, O.K.- all good ideas and I followed your link. I think it would be a good idea to put certain text files in the files or in the basement as I think of it. Maybe we can leave you to polish it up a bit so that they are easier to read and then perhaps you could select any files you like and put them under headings. I'm sure any that you've found helpful, others would too. I think Alex has also spent time in the archives and maybe Bruce. Perhaps you could liaise with them in your selections (maybe off-list) if you don't want full responsibility. We'd be delighted to give you a free hand in any of this. I'd also be happy for you to cut & paste & edit as you felt necessary. With regard to your extra note about changing the message and including a link, I think it's better to polish up the basement and get it working first & then we could consider that. In the meantime, you could just put out the occasional message on the list with a link when there are some new sections to view there... Just play around with it when you have time....no pressure or obligations, but many thanks for yr suggestions. Sarah p.s. If we need to do anything as moderators, let us know off-list. Also I've just worked out how to do the sutta links and to save files as you suggested (I think)..thanks for all these tips. > I've been looking at the 'files' and 'database' > options for moderators at e-groups, and thinking > about > the possibilities. I don't think indexing is the > answer in this environment. Of course we can search > now by keyword or author in the archives, but I > don't > think that's exactly what we're after. > > I've taken the liberty of adding a text file to the > 'files' and a link to it to the 'links' of > dhammastudygroup. It's a little rough but I think > you'll see the potential. > > I'd rather use HTML files (for the formatting), but > I > haven't found that option here and this would (I > think) require space on another server. I think > free > space is easy enough to come by, but haven't really > investigated this yet. > > mike > 3004 From: bruce Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:10pm Subject: kusala vipaka just a little personal note to let you all know i met robert kirkpatrick here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to osaka on business from kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was able to hook up for some very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller each day.... bruce 3005 From: bruce Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:11pm Subject: asubha i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") photographs in jpeg format; there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue crews at accident sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in bkk, who passed them on to his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java during the riots preceding suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese Bhikkhu... the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, and most of them are extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to contemplate the body's foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this too could happen to me tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group who would like to use them.... i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there are many list members who do not want to see them....if you would like me to send them to you in a zip file, please email me directly back-channel...i only ask that, if you request them, you simply state that you won't post them publicly....there is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of course, but for all the wrong reasons (imho...) bruce 3006 From: Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Maggie ->"What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?" Dear Maggie, we always learn things from others.( peers , philosophers , doctors , politicians,mediamen..etc) We are inspired by things done by others. We set goals for ourselves according to that learning. After some time we may see that what we learn from others is not exactly correct or there are some shortcomings . But if one studies what Buddha taught he/she will realise the relevance, neetness, uniqueness,trustworthyness,ever-greenness, reliability , practicability etc according to his/her ability. rgds. 3007 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, You wrote: >Dear Jim, > >Your quote of the 4 types of Q & A- in the Dighanikaya >comm is very clear and exactly what I was looking for. >It answers the qu. I had about the first type too. >Thanks. (They need to add this ref in our big new Pali >dict.!) Are you referring to Margaret Cone's New Pali-English Dictionary? Is it now printed and available? It will only be Vol I. A-Kh which is supposed to be coming out anytime now if not already. >BTW, is this comm. translated into English? The commentary to the Dighanikaya is called the Sumangalavilaasinii which as far as I know has not been translated into English in its entirety. However you will find portions translated with individual suttas such as the Brahmajaalasutta by B. Bodhi. I checked the Pali Text Society's web site and found the following under the current projects page: 7. Dr Y.-G. An: translation of the Suma"ngalavilaasinii commentary on the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta. The discussion on the 4 types of questions will be found in this part of the Sumangalavilaasinii. It is short (about half a page) of which I have already given the essential points of it and there isn't too much more to add. I just checked to see where else a similar discussion is found and I came across one, to my surprise, with many more details and examples in the Milindapa~nha (pp. 144-5) and this is fully translated by I.B. Horner in Milinda's Questions: The Fist of a "Teacher", Vol. I, pp. 201-3 with footnotes. Definitely recommended! There is also a short discussion, similar to the one in DA, in the Petakopadesa, p.83 for which there is a translation by ~Naa.namoli. >Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been >published yet? I think it was Robert who said he >wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm >translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised >when I mentioned I'd heard this. The SN translated by B. Bodhi is now available for purchase. If you are a PTS member you can order the volumes with a discount from the Society. I'm doubtful the volumes come with the complete translation of the commentary -- perhaps there are excerpts. Best wishes, Jim A. 3008 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Jina, --- Jinavamsa wrote: > ...we can see the > results of > this illusion-making if not the illusion-making > itself. In > other words, perhaps the units out of which the > sense of a self > are too small to be perceived individually (I leave > aside the > somewhat speculative nature of such a statement); I can't offer any proof of this, but I do take it to be sound Dhamma and also self-evident to some extent. Just the same (if you don't mind), I'll leave the question of its 'speculativeness' to someone else. > still, the > resultant sense of a self can be perceived. Most > easily, perhaps, > in inter-relationship with other people, as when > someone > recognizes us as this or that, or criticizes us, or > commends us, > and so on. It is perhaps here that the arising of > vedanâ > (experiences insofar as pleasant, unpleasant, or > neither especially > pleasant or unpleasant) can be used to bring our > attention to > the relevant sense of self being addressed, as a > mirror held > close to the mouth on an ice-cold day can show us > our breath. This is an excellent point and one I needed to hear. To back up a little, the mental factor of, say, pleasant feeling (sukhavedanaa or somanassa) does obviously arise enough times in succession to be clearly perceptible very routinely (though there may be many imperceptibly brief arisings of other factors in the course of this series). So this must be true of other mental factors, too. This has been quite a sticking-point for me--thanks for pointing it out. The next thing that's needed (as you pointed out) is enough understanding to distinguish, for example (and especially), the relation between this pleasant feeling and self-view. I think this kind of understanding is conditioned by, more than anything else, having heard the Dhamma. > And did you meet Dhiravamsa up in San Juan Island? No, at the bookstore in Seattle where I worked in the '80's. He came in with a couple of rather starry-eyed disciples who were asking for his books. Our conversation of probably less than a minute was quite a turning point for me (I'd been a kind of half-baked zen student for ten years or so). Really great to see you on this list, Jina. I always found your voice on d-l to be one of the most exemplary of right speech. Thanks again for your help. mike 3009 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Dear Maggie, Hello and welcome--so nice to meet you. I know it's a little difficult to get started but I do hope you'll read what makes sense to you and ask questions, as you've already done. I can't add anything to Robert's and Bruce's fine replies, except to try an answer to your question: I think the purpose of studying Dhamma is to end suffering by understanding what causes its beginning and its ending, and cultivating the factors that lead to its ending. Rememeber, if it's Dhamma, it's lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle and lovely in the end. Hope to hear more from you! mike 3010 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > ...Even our bhavanga > would have sati since > all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, > although the degrees > vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum > and would not > accumulate anything further since its duty is to > pass on all the > accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain > life. Most of the > time, without knowing about sati, panna and > satipatthana, one would > never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but > hearing or studying > the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible > awareness to arise > and accumulate and grow stronger to become > fleetingly perceptible, and > become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next > moments of sati to > arise. Thanks for this clarification. I've been reading about bhavanga recently, and you've touched on an answer I've been looking for: So it's the bhavangas which carry on the 'formations' of the sankharakhanda that account for sankharupadana? Nina doesn't (I don't think) mention this function in AIDL. Thanks... mike 3011 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:21am Subject: what can citta know? Hi group, I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My name is Nantawat, my nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. Let me start with couple questions. I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some realities that citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or magnetic field. From my conventional knowledge, those two are real. I cannot have direct experience with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be proved by indirect means such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by product of a magnetic field. So is the world is only what we can experience? 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, this question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience bhavarupa through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only through the mind door. When I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept level, I think I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor cues. If I am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, how can the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest kalapa of rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno (color), Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with Mahaputaupa 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound (sattarupa), so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? Alright, hope I can understand Dhamma better. Num 3012 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what can citta know? Dear Num, Hello and welcome! Great questions on your first post! I'll look forward to answers from some of our smarter members... mike --- wrote: > Hi group, > > I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My > name is Nantawat, my > nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. > > Let me start with couple questions. > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are > there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or > magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I > cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be > proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by > product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can > experience? > > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or > female). Again, this > question is from my conventional knowledge. We > cannot experience bhavarupa > through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only > through the mind door. When > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In > a concept level, I think > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross > appearance and minor cues. If I > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience > through the mind door, how can > the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. > > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 > (inseparable smallest kalapa of > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in > English-Pali. Panno (color), > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) > are always with Mahaputaupa > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, > let say sound (sattarupa), > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa > and also > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? > > Alright, hope I can understand Dhamma better. > > Num > > > 3013 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 8:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Amara, >Dear Jim, > >Thank you again for the very clear analysis. As you say, 'Making >distinctions in linguistic usage can be very difficult and confusing >in some areas.' which must be a matter of determining the >questioner's intention (cetana cetasika), the purpose of the >vaji-kamma or other communicative actions. As usual cetana must be >the chief to produce kamma, as we all know. To my mind it is still >more difficult to answer a question/request with the fourth kind of >answer (by not answering) not knowing the exact intention of the >other party as the Buddha would. It is interesting that you mention the speech act (vacii-kamma) and intention (cetanaa). That's something to keep in mind when listening to or reading utterances. I was reading the passage in the Milindapa~nha (145f) today where King Milinda puts a question to Nagasena that relates to the fourth kind of answer. The King can think of only two reasons for not answering a question: either the person does not know the answer (ajaanana) or the answer is being kept a secret (guyhakara.na). I think Nagasena could be pointing out a third reason -- the one why the Buddha did not answer certain questions. It would seem that the King's two reasons should be included in the fourth type but I'm not absolutely sure about this. The Buddha gave his own reasons in the Ananda Sutta (SN XLIV.10). >Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question >would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? I've been thinking that the multiple choice question, which I take to be the same as the alternative question, fits in with the first type (eka.msavyaakara.niiya). This is my opinion and the English usage experts seems to support this by stating: "There are two types of alternative questions: the first resembles a yes-no question, and the second a wh-question: Would you like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry (ice cream)? Which ice cream would you like? Chocolate, vanilla or strawberry? " --CGEL p.823 I would include the second one in with the first Buddhist type also. Instead of yes-no, there could be true-false or correct/right-wrong responses to questions of the first type. P.S. There is an interesting application of the same 4 types of questions in the Kathaavatthu Sutta (AN III.67) that I think is relevant and worth reading. Best wishes, Jim A. 3014 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 10:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, > Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been > published yet? I think it was Robert who said he > wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm > translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised > when I mentioned I'd heard this. > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been continuing his most excellent translations of the commentaries and suttas )\(combined. (he may in the future) I am disapointed because the books he produced recently-the samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were already complete in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another sutta translation. What is needed is the commentaries to these. I want to encourage him to do some of these and so mentioned it. Robert 3015 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:03am Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation > > ...Even our bhavanga > > would have sati since > > all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, > > although the degrees > > vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum > > and would not > > accumulate anything further since its duty is to > > pass on all the > > accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain > > life. Most of the > > time, without knowing about sati, panna and > > satipatthana, one would > > never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but > > hearing or studying > > the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible > > awareness to arise > > and accumulate and grow stronger to become > > fleetingly perceptible, and > > become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next > > moments of sati to > > arise. > > So it's the bhavangas > which carry on the 'formations' of the sankharakhanda > that account for sankharupadana? Nina doesn't (I > don't think) mention this function in AIDL. Dear Mike, All citta are anantara paccaya for the next citta to arise, besides being other types of paccaya for them as well. They all carry all latent tendencies and accumulations of all cetasika that have not yet been eradicated, nothing is ever lost. Amara 3016 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > It is interesting that you mention the speech act (vacii-kamma) and > intention (cetanaa). That's something to keep in mind when listening to or > reading utterances. I was reading the passage in the Milindapa~nha (145f) > today where King Milinda puts a question to Nagasena that relates to the > fourth kind of answer. The King can think of only two reasons for not > answering a question: either the person does not know the answer (ajaanana) > or the answer is being kept a secret (guyhakara.na). I think Nagasena could > be pointing out a third reason -- the one why the Buddha did not answer > certain questions. It would seem that the King's two reasons should be > included in the fourth type but I'm not absolutely sure about this. The > Buddha gave his own reasons in the Ananda Sutta (SN XLIV.10). > > >Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question > >would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? > > I've been thinking that the multiple choice question, which I take to be the > same as the alternative question, fits in with the first type > (eka.msavyaakara.niiya). This is my opinion and the English usage experts > seems to support this by stating: > > "There are two types of alternative questions: the first resembles a yes-no > question, and the second a wh-question: > > Would you like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry (ice cream)? > Which ice cream would you like? Chocolate, vanilla or strawberry? " > --CGEL p.823 > > I would include the second one in with the first Buddhist type also. Instead > of yes-no, there could be true-false or correct/right-wrong responses to > questions of the first type. > > P.S. There is an interesting application of the same 4 types of questions in > the Kathaavatthu Sutta (AN III.67) that I think is relevant and worth > reading. Dear Jim, Thanks and anumodana for your help, will print out your letter and ask someone to find the recommended passages today, Amara 3017 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: what can citta know? > I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My name is Nantawat, my > nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. > > Let me start with couple questions. > > Num Dear Num, Hi and welcome! I look forward to the answer of your questions also, will look in again later this evening and talk to you again, Hope you find this group interesting, as I do, Amara 3018 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick <> > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been > continuing his most > excellent translations of the commentaries and > suttas > )\(combined. (he may in the future) > I am disapointed because the books he produced > recently-the > samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were > already complete > in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another > sutta > translation. What is needed is the commentaries to > these. > I want to encourage him to do some of these and so > mentioned it. > > Robert > Hope so too and it's good if people like yourself encourage him! thanks. I must say I also really appreciate Maj Nik translation w/ notes and am looking f/w to Samyutta and anymore of these too as they are a big improvement, I find.... He must be very busy with many different demands. 3019 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Dear Bruce, Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even moments of awareness. But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the pleasant sights in the restaurant. This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as they are and so put aside wrong views about them. It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in life. These are simply result and do not give future results. The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be understood. Robert -- bruce wrote: > just a little personal note to let you all know i met robert > kirkpatrick > here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to osaka on > business from > kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was able to > hook up for some > very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller each day.... > > > bruce > > > 3020 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:14:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst > Dear Sarah, > > > Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been > > published yet? I think it was Robert who said he > > wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm > > translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised > > when I mentioned I'd heard this. > > > > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been continuing his most > excellent translations of the commentaries and suttas > )\(combined. (he may in the future) > I am disapointed because the books he produced recently-the > samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were already complete > in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another sutta > translation. What is needed is the commentaries to these. > I want to encourage him to do some of these and so mentioned it. > > Robert Dear Robert, I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in leaves. But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest problem is those notes that I must add. I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook work in my humble opinion. He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even he don't know those languages.There are too many things he can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. from Teng Kee 3021 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 8:37pm Subject: India date set Dear friends, For those interested, a temporary date has been set for India, Dec. 13-26 2001. As of now there are two itineraries to choose from, one going to Ajanta and Ellora and the other to the Taj and Sankassa (sp?) as soon as the itineraries are set I will post them on the newsletter section in . and give the link here as before. Amara 3022 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 9:58pm Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even he don't know those languages.There are too many things he can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. Dear Teng Kee, Welcome to the list! I did not realize you were involved with the translation of the texts. The person whom I asked to help you is also on this list, Sukinder Narula, whom you might contact yourself from his e-mail address accessible on the messages page of this list. I am sorry to say we did not get the source material yet, will ask again tomorrow, or perhaps Sukinder has found some already, I forgot to ask him. He will be very happy to help you in any way he can in your kusala endeavours. Please contact us through our private e-mails, Anumodana, Amara 3023 From: bruce Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:17pm Subject: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi robert i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been thinking about many of the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the subways and trains out of the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta from arising (until one has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a gradual process of understanding, and until that process is completed there will continue to arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as their opposites, all of varying degrees.... i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the process: by reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by trying to cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back to the idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the continuous barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my attention completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense doors....in other words: formal practice..... for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal sitting offers space and time for me to put sustained effort into seeing things as they really are -- whether or not i am successful is another story! -- but the more i conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever arises at the 6 doors, the more i feel that there are moments of non-sitting time in which clarity and understanding arise on their own.... remember we had talked about how concepts were utterly necessary to navigate through the day, how we couldn't live without them?....but during a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) practice, we no longer *need* concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of "formal" practice: the relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, (of course they will) but it seems that if we put ourselves into situations which don't specifically demand conceptualization, we are increasing the chances of paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and through the effort to cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of knowing the difference between realities and concepts, the chances for the arising of satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place demands-to-conceptualize upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations inherently more conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost in papanca, and thus begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual level? or am i way off ?? i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said (something to the effect that) of course panna could arise while one is at the movies....and i agree completely....but from my experiences with movies, they are made specifically to draw us into pre-determined conceptal snares, and if you're sitting there caught up worrying about whether or not the bad guy is gonna get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not not noticing, and not trying to notice that there is only color appearing at the eye-door....i know that one of course *could* be intent on cultivating such awareness continuously, but then why go to the movies in the first place? (oh buster keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to music, or any of the other million distractions....oh dear, this is already turning into my next two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try and tie this all up after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal practice ... bruce At 02:42 2001/01/27 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- > > I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala > vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, > kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala > citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even > moments of awareness. > But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside > was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments > of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the > discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is > natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we > were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the > pleasant sights in the restaurant. > This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, > conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be > impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the > countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as > they are and so put aside wrong views about them. > It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in > life. These are simply result and do not give future results. > The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala > or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those > moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the > diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be > understood. > Robert > 3024 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: what can citta know? > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? Dear Num, What do you mean by 'aware of'? If you mean awareness as in satipatthana, experiencing realities as they really are, each dvara has its own arammana and the eye could only see visible object, the ear could only hear sound, etc. The body sense has temperature, degrees of hardness/softness, and motion or tension as possible arammana, and the mind dvara can study the characteristics of all the realities through all dvara, as well as the characteristics of all the citta and cetasitka that arise through all the dvara, including the mind dvara. The citta that sees is different than the citta that hears or tastes. The cetasika that is lobha is different from the cetasika that is dosa or machariya, (stinginess). These are all realities that sati can study, and be aware of the characteristics of. For example, gravity or magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can experience? If you mean the broader (non dhamma) sense of awareness as in thinking of something, aware of the existence of gravity and magnetic fields, these are only thoughts that can only appear through the mind dvara. The world is not only what we can experience as you say, it is in our thoughts, our beliefs, our memory. What we can really experience are the arammana of the individual dvara, which together combine to make us think there is a 'world'. In reality there are only namadhamma and rupadhamma, or the citta, cetasika, and rupa, which we take for the world. Can we experience anything at all other than through the six dvara? > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, this > question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience bhavarupa > through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only through the mind door. When > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept level, I think > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor cues. If I > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, how can > the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. The mind door can understand and recognize bhavarupa intellectually since of all the rupa only those that can be the arammana of the six dvara could be experienced, the rest could only be understood intellectually. As it is, visible objects, audible objects, smells, tastes, temperature, hardness/softness, motion/tension and thoughts are enough to entangle us in the self and the world around us, completely hiding the fact that there is no self there at all, just a succession of extremely rapid realities arising and falling away, under no one's control. To worry about all the other subtle rupa that cannot be experienced seems superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, theoretically, but what we need to know in order for right understanding of things as they really are is right now as they appear to be aware of their true characteristics, seeing is there now as we read this visible object on the screen, so different from sound or taste. > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest kalapa of > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno (color), > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with Mahaputaupa > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound (sattarupa), > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? Yes, they are inseparable. Oja, however does not simply mean nutrient as in food, intends the rupa that makes other rupa arise. To understand more about the rupa, read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part I, the section of the rupa paramattha, advanced section, from which this is an excerpt: There are 28 kinds of rupa-paramattha and the meaning is not the same as the conventional rupa: a table being a rupa, a chair another, a book still another, for example. Among the 28 kinds of rupa, there is only one the citta experiences through the eye; it sees only one rupa: the object which appears to the eyes only. The other 27 rupa cannot be seen by citta but can be experienced elsewhere according to the type of the specific rupa, for example, sound can be experienced through the ears. Even though citta and cetasika cannot be seen with the eyes, like the 27 invisible rupa, but citta and cetasika are not rupa because they are paramattha-dhamma that experience arammana, while rupa is a paramattha-dhamma that does not experience arammana. Rupa-paramattha is a sankhara-dhamma (conditioned reality) that arises because of conditions. One rupa depends on another rupa to arise, therefore there can never be just one rupa arising alone, but a small group of rupa that arise together interdependently, impossible to separate or divide, called in Pali kalapa. Rupa is the infinitesimally tiny reality that arises and falls away rapidly at all times. A kalapa of rupa that arises lasts the amount of time 17 citta take to arise and fall away consecutively, which is very rapidly. The seeing and the hearing citta that appear as though they were simultaneous actually arise and fall away more than 17 moments of citta apart, therefore, the rupa that arises simultaneously with the seeing consciousness falls away before the citta that hears can arise. Each rupa is infinitesimal but when a group of rupa that arises and falls away together is divided minutely until it can no longer be separated. In the infinitesimal, indivisible group of rupa, there are at least 8 rupa together. These are call the eight avinibhoga-rupa: The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension The four mahabhuta-rupa arise interdependently and, therefore, are indivisible. They are the conditions or the basis on which another four rupa [upadaya-rupa] arise together with the mahabhuta-rupa and in the same kalapa: 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise (End quote) Nowadays there are so many children's toys, and even many adult and seriously applied voice operated or voice recognition or mechanisms that react to sound that the choice of examples is staggering, as Tom, also on this list, who works with voice recognition techniques will be able to tell you! Amara 3025 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 0:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, > Sorry I took the > liberty earlier, Not at all! Your posts are always well worth taking into account. In this case, I'm sure Jina's response was of much greater value to me than my post was to anyone! Always a pleasure, Ma'am... mike 3026 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping Dear Sarah, I just got around to reading this response after sending off a request for a response. Please excuse the redundancy. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > O.K.- all good ideas and I followed your link. The one in 'links' going to Jon's post? > I > think > it would be a good idea to put certain text files in > the files or in the basement as I think of it. Maybe > we can leave you to polish it up a bit so that they > are easier to read and then perhaps you could select > any files you like and put them under headings. This seems to me to be a pretty personal matter. I think I'd rather defer to one of you to assign importance or unique merit to various posts--but I'll think about it... > I'm > sure any that you've found helpful, others would > too. > > I think Alex has also spent time in the archives and > maybe Bruce. Perhaps you could liaise with them in > your selections (maybe off-list) if you don't want > full responsibility. We'd be delighted to give you a > free hand in any of this. I'd also be happy for you > to > cut & paste & edit as you felt necessary. > > With regard to your extra note about changing the > message Not sure what you meant by this...? > and including a link, I think it's better to > polish up the basement and get it working first & > then > we could consider that. I just noticed that the new Yahoo page calls 'Links' 'Bookmarks' instead. There are already links there to several (all?) the files, including the new Jon text file; do you mean you don't think we should post links herefor now? > In the meantime, you could > just put out the occasional message on the list with > a > link when there are some new sections to view > there... I'll do that with the new file, if you and Jon have reviewed & OK'd it. > Just play around with it when you have time....no > pressure or obligations, but many thanks for yr > suggestions. Will do... > Sarah > > p.s. If we need to do anything as moderators, let us > know off-list. I'll do that too--Generally, I think it would be best if you wouldn't mind reviewing anything I'm going to post... 3027 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Subarashii! mike --- bruce wrote: > just a little personal note to let you all know i > met robert kirkpatrick > here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to > osaka on business from > kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was > able to hook up for some > very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller > each day.... > > bruce > 3028 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Dear Bruce, Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead bodies in every stage of decomposition was a commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation would be the same for us as it would have been for contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? Opinions, please... mike --- bruce wrote: > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > photographs in jpeg format; > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > crews at accident > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > bkk, who passed them on to > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > during the riots preceding > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > Bhikkhu... > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > and most of them are > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > contemplate the body's > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > too could happen to me > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > who would like to use > them.... > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > are many list members > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > to send them to you in > a zip file, please email me directly > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > request them, you simply state that you won't post > them publicly....there > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > course, but for all the > wrong reasons (imho...) > > bruce > 3029 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, --- wrote: > All citta are anantara paccaya for the next citta to > arise, besides > being other types of paccaya for them as well. They > all carry all > latent tendencies and accumulations of all cetasika > that have not yet > been eradicated, nothing is ever lost. Thank you, Ma'am... mike 3030 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Dear Robert, A very nice piece of everyday abhidhamma--thanks! mike 3031 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:40am Subject: Re: India date set > For those interested, a temporary date has been set for India, Dec. > 13-26 2001. Dear friends, I'm so sorry I posted the wrong month for India, it is still for October, 13-26, I really regret giving some of you false expectations! Amara 3032 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:16am Subject: Re: kusala vipaka hello Robert, I like your application of concepts of Buddhist psychology to actual experience. What a clarifying link (for me). jinavamsa ========= --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- > > I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala > vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, > kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala > citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even > moments of awareness. > But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside > was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments > of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the > discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is > natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we > were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the > pleasant sights in the restaurant. > This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, > conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be > impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the > countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as > they are and so put aside wrong views about them. > It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in > life. These are simply result and do not give future results. > The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala > or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those > moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the > diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be > understood. > Robert > 3033 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:25am Subject: Re: asubha hello Mike, just thinking about meditation on death, it is true that in the Buddha's time (and still in India, I hear) it was possible to go to the area where recently dead bodies were placed and remained while they decomposed. That is hardly possible in much of the West. When leading some retreats in England, an elderly woman (in her 80s) came and was concerned with her own (ultimate) death. I recommended that she have someone take a chair for her across the road, where there was a church and its little graveyard, and to sit there meditating on death. It seemed to be quite helpful for her, she later reported. jinavamsa --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type > of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and > wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead > bodies in every stage of decomposition was a > commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds > for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us > in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have > seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I > wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation > would be the same for us as it would have been for > contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? > > Opinions, please... > > mike > --- bruce wrote: > > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > > photographs in jpeg format; > > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > > crews at accident > > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > > bkk, who passed them on to > > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > > during the riots preceding > > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > > Bhikkhu... > > > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > > and most of them are > > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > > contemplate the body's > > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > > too could happen to me > > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > > who would like to use > > them.... > > > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > > are many list members > > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > > to send them to you in > > a zip file, please email me directly > > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > > request them, you simply state that you won't post > > them publicly....there > > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > > course, but for all the > > wrong reasons (imho...) > > > > bruce > > 3034 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:28am Subject: minor correction [Re: asubha minor correction for clarity: Begin the passage with: "When I was leading .... " sorry about that. jinavamsa ========== > When leading some retreats in England, an > elderly woman (in her 80s) came and was concerned with her > own (ultimate) death. I recommended that she have someone take > a chair for her across the road, where there was a church and > its little graveyard, and to sit there meditating on death. > It seemed to be quite helpful for her, she later reported. > jinavamsa 3035 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Amara, First of all, thanks for spending your time and for your kindness answering my questions. Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had :) I am appreciate your response and input. I like Buddhism b/c it's provable at this moment, here and now and everywhere I go. I can see that Pannatti is not real such as a table is a whole or a sum of very momentary paramathadhamma. But something like gravity exists without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name of something exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding it's not just only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as inside ayatana. That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of heaven or hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story sounds possible but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. So I don't think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I still somewhat reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I thought about it. <> I agree that we cannot. <> What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about it? I usually ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, in a thinking level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the concept feeds in with form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how can I know that he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my memory, my thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this facial expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their cetasika for sure. > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta sutta, Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the Buddha did not give an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to the same question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha though mentioned about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an arrow. The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very fascinating. I think I will need your guidance again in the future. More questions to come. I have to go. Appreciate. Num 3036 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some > realities that > > citta cannot be aware of? The Buddha teaches that there are 4 types of ultimate realities: rupa, citta, cetasika, and nibbhana. Citta can cognize all ultimate realities, and also can cognize pannatti. Knowing the ultimate realities as they truly are, dukkha, anicca, and anatta, one can reach the end of suffering without knowing any more. Some ultimate realities are so refined that they don't become fully known to all except those with the sharpest panna. The Buddha did not explain all that we understand through science today. He did not explain how atoms and subatomic particles work. He didn't explain how the universe begins and how it ends. He didn't explain how gravity and electricity can be explained with the different realities. We don't need to know those things to attain nibbhana. As Khun Amara has mentioned, when you infer (that gravity exists, for example, by way of observing two objects behaving toward one another), you are having pannatti as the aramana. Your inferral may in fact be reflexive of some properties of realities, or it may be totally inaccurate. For example, Aristotle inferred that bird feathers fall to the ground more slowly than a piece of metal because it is lighter. Pannatti is such: sometimes it is reflexive of realities, sometimes it is not. Although it is interesting and sometimes fun to explain what we understand about science through Buddha's teachings. Since Buddha didn't teach this himself (and as he didn't infer: he simply knew, what he said would be ALWAYS reflexive of the properties of realities), we would be just speculating with no useful purpose (any path not leading to Nibbhana is not useful). For example, isn't it neat to know no matter how the scientists dissect rupa, the smallest unit always seem to have the properties of the 4 maha-bhuta rupa (light waves, quarks, etc.) Another example. I am comparing the Thai tipitaka with the English translations because sometimes Thai usage of sentence structure and wordings confuse me more than English. I discovered that the English translation explicitly mentioned the universe during the "contracting" period and the "expanding" period. Doesn't that increase your saddha toward Buddha's omniscience? > > > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, > this > > question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience > bhavarupa > > through eye-ear-nose-tongue-body door, but only through the mind > door. When > > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept > level, > I think > > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor > cues. If I > > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, > how can > > the mind door be aware of bhavarupa. Besides the explanation that Khun Amara has already provided that may help with the understanding, my only addition here is that some of us may never fully know what the true characteristics of bhavarupa is, as it may not appear to the person without the appropriate level of panna. > > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest > kalapa of > > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno > (color), > > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with > Mahaputaupa > > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound > (sattarupa), > > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also > > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? As Khun Amara has mentioned and you already said, the Buddha teaches that Avinipocarupa is the smallest kalapa. Again, if you think about and infer how sounds are transmitted (scientifically), you may be able to map this teaching to the scientific principles. Sounds doesn't transmit in space too well. Why? It does transmit in air and water. Why? Anumoddhana to your efforts to understand realities. kom 3037 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Mike, Opinion you will get! I think for those of us not accustomed to the sight and without the proper accumulations, dosa would certainly arise when seeing such a picture. However, once you get used to it, and with the proper condition, it would be a very good reminder of the "penalties" of the 5 senses: that they are dukkha and anicca, that they bring phassa, vedana, tanha, upadana, ,birth, old age, death, sadness, lamentation, etc. They also remind us what we call as our rupa as it truly is: asubha. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha > > > Dear Bruce, > > Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type > of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and > wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead > bodies in every stage of decomposition was a > commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds > for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us > in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have > seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I > wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation > would be the same for us as it would have been for > contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? > > Opinions, please... > > mike > --- bruce wrote: > > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > > photographs in jpeg format; > > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > > crews at accident > > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > > bkk, who passed them on to > > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > > during the riots preceding > > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > > Bhikkhu... > > > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > > and most of them are > > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > > contemplate the body's > > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > > too could happen to me > > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > > who would like to use > > them.... > > > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > > are many list members > > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > > to send them to you in > > a zip file, please email me directly > > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > > request them, you simply state that you won't post > > them publicly....there > > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > > course, but for all the > > wrong reasons (imho...) > > > > bruce > > > 3038 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: what can citta know? > Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had :) I > appreciate your response and input. Dear Num, I went back and counted five paragraphs that I wrote, the others were just quotations from your original letter and a book in the website, but thanks any way for the distinction, I hope the message was of some some use. Your question below remind me of another message I wrote here some time ago, message no. 1773 to Alex, in the archives, from which I quote: We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six senses now. Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV watcher these days, told me that one of the better character actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be studied at all times. While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. (End another long quote!) A tree or gravity or any rupa including electricity and space (nothingness) can only be 'known' through the mind dvara, unlike sight as you read this now, or the sounds and touch of 'your computer' through the other dvara, all with real, distinct characteristics to be studied and experienced to add to the knowledge of things as they really are. Amara > But something like gravity exists > without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name of something > exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding it's not just > only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as inside ayatana. > That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of heaven or > hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story sounds possible > but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. So I don't > think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I still somewhat > reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I thought about it. > What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about it? I usually > ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, in a thinking > level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the concept feeds in with > form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how can I know that > he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my memory, my > thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this facial > expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their cetasika for > sure. > > < superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, theoretically, but what > we need to know in order for right understanding of things as they really are > is right now>> > > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary > but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, > careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and > dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta sutta, > Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the Buddha did not give > an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to the same > question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha though mentioned > about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an arrow. > > > The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very fascinating. I think I > will need your guidance again in the future. More questions to come. 3039 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Teng Kee, I very much appreciate you joining this forum. I looked over some of your posts on d-l when I first joined that group and was much impressed by how informative they were. Looking forward to your help and comments on many topics (whenever you have time, of course). --- teng kee ong wrote: > > Dear Robert, > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those > sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete > com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi > just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya > tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. Yes, I knew the majhihamma trans. was originally Nanamolis' but I thought B. Bodhi did the Brahmajala and Mahanidana himself. > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of > commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book > format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in > leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is > adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been > used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and > Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the > biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook > work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese > translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even > he don't know those languages.There are too many things he > can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. > from Teng Kee Highly pleased to hear you are working on this translation. Any help I can ever be (not for help with difficult points - but in more mundane ways)please let me know. Any corrections you ever want to point out on any other translations (eg. Bodhi's) would be valuable. Sukkhavipassaka is one area that is not well explained in the English, I think. Robert 3040 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: Foremost analyst hello Teng Kee and Robert and all, yes, more on sukkhavipassaka or suddhavipassanâyânika, please. jinavamsa --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Teng Kee, > I very much appreciate you joining this forum. I looked over > some of your posts on d-l when I first joined that group and was > much impressed by how informative they were. Looking forward to > your help and comments on many topics (whenever you have time, > of course). > --- teng kee ong wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those > > sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete > > com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi > > just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya > > tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. > > Yes, I knew the majhihamma trans. was originally Nanamolis' but > I thought B. Bodhi did the Brahmajala and Mahanidana himself. > > > > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of > > commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book > > format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in > > leaves. > > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is > > adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been > > used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and > > Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the > > biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook > > work in my humble opinion. > > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese > > translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even > > he don't know those languages.There are too many things he > > can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. > > from Teng Kee > > Highly pleased to hear you are working on this translation. Any > help I can ever be (not for help with difficult points - but in > more mundane ways)please let me know. Any corrections you ever > want to point out on any other translations (eg. Bodhi's) would > be valuable. Sukkhavipassaka is one area that is not well > explained in the English, I think. > Robert > 3041 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 4:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Are you referring to Margaret Cone's New > Pali-English Dictionary? Is it now > printed and available? It will only be Vol I. A-Kh > which is supposed to be > coming out anytime now if not already. > No, I'm using PTS Pali-Eng edited by Rhys Davids & Stede. By new, I meant new to us (a freebie from PTS when they sent it by mistake & said no need to return!). I couldn't possibly justify another! > The commentary to the Dighanikaya is called the > Sumangalavilaasinii which > as far as I know has not been translated into > English in its entirety. > However you will find portions translated with > individual suttas such as the > Brahmajaalasutta by B. Bodhi. I checked the Pali > Text Society's web site and > found the following under the current projects page: > > 7. Dr Y.-G. An: translation of the > Suma"ngalavilaasinii commentary on the > Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta. > > The discussion on the 4 types of questions will be > found in this part of the > Sumangalavilaasinii. It is short (about half a page) > of which I have already > given the essential points of it and there isn't too > much more to add. I > just checked to see where else a similar discussion > is found and I came > across one, to my surprise, with many more details > and examples in the > Milindapa~nha (pp. 144-5) and this is fully > translated by I.B. Horner in > Milinda's Questions: The Fist of a "Teacher", Vol. > I, pp. 201-3 with > footnotes. Definitely recommended! Thanks for the info and refs. My copy of the above is translated by Rhys Davids (maybe older), but yr page ref. still worked! I liked the examples of the questions that can be put aside and then the reason for putting these questions aside: '...And why ought such a question to be put on one side? Because there is no reason or object for answering it. That is why it should be put aside. For the Blessed Buddhas lift not up their voice without a reason and without an object.....' Thanks, Sarah 3042 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, Thanks for telling us about your get together w/Robert. I have fond memories of Nara too (where I think you said you lived)...the park, geishas, cherry blossom and lots of rain! Hopefully you'll make it to Hong Kong before too long and we'll also have a chance to meet you. I was most impressed by your very articulate post below and your careful consideration and questioning of what you hear and read. I'm not sure if any comments I make will add to the discussion, but let's see. --- bruce wrote: > hi robert > > i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been > thinking about many of > the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the > subways and trains out of > the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta > from arising (until one > has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a > gradual process of > understanding, and until that process is completed > there will continue to > arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as > their opposites, all > of varying degrees.... So obviously you found that on the Japanese crowded subways and trains there was plenty of useful reflection and possibly moments of sati without any special planning in advance... > > i also thought about how it might be possible to > nurture the process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with > the wise; by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i > keep coming back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to > disengage from the continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and > to give my attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six > sense doors....in other > words: formal practice..... I think we all agree that the development of understanding and awareness are of prime importance. I think we also agree that they can only know and be aware of realities at the present moment (i.e. not of concepts and not at any other time). I think we also agree that these realities are conditioned in many complex ways and are anatta (not self)...O.K? Can we also agree that although it seems that WE can make choices and decisions in life that this is an illusion? So we may think that certain places,times and situations are more favourable for our practice but actually these are just ideas. Right now we are sitting in front of the computer. There is seeing, visible object and the other realities that can be known. If we have an idea of another place and time, it's just thinking (about concepts) and the thinking can be known for a moment as the experiencing of these (without needing to think about how fast it is!). If we find that by conditions we're standing on the subway or sitting in the cinema or retreat centre, it's the same. We're there by conditions already. There's no need to think about whether it's the best place to be or whether somewhere else would be more conducive to the development of panna. Having heard about realities and having confidence that awareness can arise at any time can be conditions for it to arise at that time. (I'm talking here about the development of sati in satipatthana in particular). > > for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal > sitting offers space and > time for me to put sustained effort into seeing > things as they really are > -- whether or not i am successful is another story! > -- but the more i > conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever > arises at the 6 doors, > the more i feel that there are moments of > non-sitting time in which clarity > and understanding arise on their own.... It seems that it's necessary to put in some 'sustained effort' and Mike may have more comments on this thread too! Indeed, even conventionally, we talk about making an effort. But who can make an effort? As we've discussed before, viriya cetasika can be kusala or akusala (wholesome or unwholesome). All kinds of viriya are also anatta. When we have the idea of making a sustained effort, isn't there some idea of self lurking there? When we 'work at noticing' isn't there also an idea of someone noticing?* > > remember we had talked about how concepts were > utterly necessary to > navigate through the day, how we couldn't live > without them?....but during > a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) > practice, we no longer *need* > concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of > "formal" practice: the > relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? I wonder if we really have any idea how much conceptualizing there really is. We are not just talking about thinking in words, but immediately after seeing a visible object or experiencing a reality through the body sense, there are concepts. This doesn't need to be with wrong view at all. Most the time it's just with moha (ignorance). So even during a 'formal practice' concepts are used to navigate even though it may not seem that way. It's impossible to live or exist without concepts and the Buddha certainly never advocated this. > > this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, > (of course they will) > but it seems that if we put ourselves into > situations which don't > specifically demand conceptualization, we are > increasing the chances of > paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and > through the effort to > cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of > knowing the difference > between realities and concepts, the chances for the > arising of > satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place > demands-to-conceptualize > upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations > inherently more > conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost > in papanca, and thus > begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual > level? > Bruce, I know exactly what you're saying and it all sounds very logical and very clearly put into words. However, I think this is thinking rather than understanding realities. It goes along with the idea that if only we could slow down realities or cut out those annoying papanca, life would be a lot simpler. Again it sounds like there is a wish to control or select realities to be known. Even if there is not any wrong understanding of a self who can do this, isn't there at least some strong lobha to have more kusala, more sati and fewer concepts instead of accepting and knowing what has been conditioned already? > or am i way off ?? I think you're very much on the right track. Why do I say this? Because you're seriously questioning and considering the difference between concepts and realities and what the practice really is. This is very unusual. > > i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said > (something to the effect > that) of course panna could arise while one is at > the movies....and i agree > completely....but from my experiences with movies, > they are made > specifically to draw us into pre-determined > conceptal snares, and if you're > sitting there caught up worrying about whether or > not the bad guy is gonna > get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not > not noticing, and not > trying to notice that there is only color appearing > at the eye-door....i > know that one of course *could* be intent on > cultivating such awareness > continuously, but then why go to the movies in the > first place? (oh buster > keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to > music, or any of the > other million distractions.... Excellent points and questions. Why go there in the first place or follow the other distractions indeed? One answer might be because it's conditioned like that already. You may decide never to go to another movie and then your friend recommends a great new one and off you go. What are you going to do? Cry because of the wasted opportunity to develop awareness or just enjoy yourself and leave it to conditions whether sati arises? oh dear, this is > already turning into my next > two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try > and tie this all up > after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal > practice ... Now watch out there, Bruce, you could find yourself thinking about Buster Keaton in your formal practice too....!! I'm not sure I've added anything more to Robert's comments and Jonothan's & Amara's earlier ones about spinning out concepts at the computer, but it's been a pleasure for me to try! Thanks, Sarah * There is a really helpful chapter on viriya cetasika (effort) in Nina VG's Cetasikas, which I highly recommend to everyone. It's very readable and useful. I was going to quote from it, but this is too long already, I fear! Actually I think I quoted from it in a post quite a long while back, but I haven't got a record. 3043 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 5:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, Wow, you really considered what I said. Thank you. See below: --- bruce wrote: > hi robert > > i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been thinking > about many of > the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the subways and > trains out of > the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta from > arising (until one > has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a gradual > process of > understanding, and until that process is completed there will > continue to > arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as their > opposites, all > of varying degrees.... Yes, that is just what I meant/said. > > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the > process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; > by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding... In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: moral habit, hearing, discussion, calm, and vision. The commentary says that moral habit is the catupaisuddhi-sila. Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. That calm is the eight jhanas and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. Note the importance of discussion and right teaching. The eight jhanas are not needed for dry-insight workers (sukkha-vipassaka). .and i keep coming > back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the > continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my > attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense > doors....in other > words: formal practice..... > for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal sitting > offers space and > time for me to put sustained effort into seeing things as they > really are > -- whether or not i am successful is another story! -- but the > more i > conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever arises at > the 6 doors, > the more i feel that there are moments of non-sitting time in > which clarity > and understanding arise on their own.... > > remember we had talked about how concepts were utterly > necessary to > navigate through the day, how we couldn't live without > them?....but during > a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) practice, we no > longer *need* > concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of "formal" > practice: the > relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? I think you put this very well Bruce. I have heard khun sujin tell new people, who say they are too busy to study, that when they wake in the middle of the night they should take the opportunity to study or consider Dhamma. It is not that anyone would say don't go to a quiet place. They can be a supporting condition for awareness and insight. However, the essential basis is right understanding and we need to check and see if that is firm intellectually. You told me that recently you notice insights coming while you are on the train. In Japan this is no secluded place. And I found that while in Osaka this weekend the crowds of people actually conditioned some awareness of seeing: it is so pleasant to have such moments in these situations. I think you do have a good point about the demands of conceptualising. If we were so continually busy with an extremely mentally demanding job- like a overworked mathmatician perhaps- there might be less opportunities,if one is beginning, for reflection on Dhamma, and possibly direct awareness too. But also I know that awareness can come in at times that seem not conducive at all: for instance, when under severe stress. It has happened like this for me. Remember Shin gave the example of how seeing a decapitated head and other body parts last week in Bangkok was a condition for her to consider and see the value of Dhamma. In the commentary to the satipatthana sutta one monk became enlightened while a tiger was eating him from the feet up. > this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, (of course > they will) > but it seems that if we put ourselves into situations which > don't > specifically demand conceptualization, we are increasing the > chances of > paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and through > the effort to > cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of knowing > the difference > between realities and concepts, the chances for the arising of > satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place > demands-to-conceptualize > upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations inherently > more > conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost in > papanca, and thus > begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual level? > > or am i way off ?? I think at this level one has to be very careful and honest to oneself. Is there really more awareness of paramattha dhamma or is it simply more calm and pleasant feeling. Remember that sanna and citta experience and know paramattha dhamma - but there is not necessarily panna arising at this time. If panna is absent the dhammas are not truly known as they are. More perilous is that one might think they can have sati and panna at will by concentrating: if so that is atta-sanna. > > i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said (something > to the effect > that) of course panna could arise while one is at the > movies....and i agree > completely....but from my experiences with movies, they are > made > specifically to draw us into pre-determined conceptal snares, > and if you're > sitting there caught up worrying about whether or not the bad > guy is gonna > get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not not > noticing, and not > trying to notice that there is only color appearing at the > eye-door....i > know that one of course *could* be intent on cultivating such > awareness > continuously, but then why go to the movies in the first > place? (oh buster > keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to music, or > any of the > other million distractions....oh dear, this is already turning > into my next > two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try and tie > this all up > after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal practice > ... I asked much the same things to Nina 10 years ago, about when I first met Khun Sujin. I think it is all a matter of the middle way. If we are in the movies it is already conditioned. I went to a movie on Saturday night. I found it hard to get lost in the story because reflections about Dhamma and some awareness kept coming up (of course Stallone being the lead actor helped too). These are very useful comments and questions that many on the list will be interested in. They pertain to the subtleties of right and wrong practice. Post more whenever you have time. Robert 3044 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 8:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Glad to see you joined up. Good that you are investigating the teachings in the Abhidhamma. I think you are already considering in wise ways, and Amara and Kom gave good replies. Brief additions: 1. magnetic fields. If this is based on the actual behaviour of dhammas then it is a concept that is the shadow of the dhammas. It still cannot help us to understand paramattha dhammas. 2. the characteristics of male and female. We may not actually be able to distinuguish these directly; however it is useful to consider about them. We think of ourself as "man" and "woman". We think our ways of behaviour are US. But all of this is simply conditioned moments. It is just like a puppet carved out of wood and painted to look male or female, beautiful or not. Nothing of any essence is really there. Robert --- wrote: > Hi Amara, > > First of all, thanks for spending your time and for your > kindness answering > my questions. Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had > :) I am > appreciate your response and input. > > I like Buddhism b/c it's provable at this moment, here and now > and everywhere > I go. I can see that Pannatti is not real such as a table is > a whole or a > sum of very momentary paramathadhamma. But something like > gravity exists > without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name > of something > exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding > it's not just > only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as > inside ayatana. > That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of > heaven or > hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story > sounds possible > but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. > So I don't > think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I > still somewhat > reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I > thought about it. > > < dvara?>> > I agree that we cannot. > > < intellectually>> > What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about > it? I usually > ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, > in a thinking > level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the > concept feeds in with > form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how > can I know that > he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my > memory, my > thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this > facial > expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their > cetasika for > sure. > > < experienced seems > superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, > theoretically, but what > we need to know in order for right understanding of things as > they really are > is right now>> > > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may > not unnecessary > but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, > a wonderer, > careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, > reality and > dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta > sutta, > Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the > Buddha did not give > an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to > the same > question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha > though mentioned > about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an > arrow. > > > The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very > fascinating. I think I > will need your guidance again in the future. More questions > to come. > > I have to go. > > Appreciate. > > Num > 3045 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what can citta know? Num Welcome to the list, and thanks for your interesting questions. I would like to try to give a short answer to the first one. > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are > there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or > magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I > cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be > proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by > product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can > experience? It is true that citta cannot directly experience gravity or a magnetic field. Nor for that matter can it directly experience any of the other ‘realities’ that make up the world as we know it. These would include all the other phenomena of physics, the sun and moon, weather, time, space, direction, places, people (including ourselves) and so on. As you know, these are called conventional realities. It is only the absolute realities (paramattha dhamma) that can be the object of awareness and understanding. The conventional realities, which are known to us through the mind door as concepts, cannot be the object of understanding which eradicates ignorance about the true characteristic of absolute realities. This is the ignorance that the Buddha identified as being the cause of rebirth. So one answer to your question could be that the world as we see it is a world of conventional realities, but this is not the world as it really is. I don’t know if this addresses your question. Jon 3046 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Gayan, A good explanation. Thank you. Robert --- wrote: > Maggie ->"What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?" > > Dear Maggie, > > we always learn things from others.( peers , philosophers , > doctors , > politicians,mediamen..etc) > We are inspired by things done by others. > We set goals for ourselves according to that learning. > > After some time we may see that what we learn from others is > not exactly correct > or there are some shortcomings . > > But if one studies what Buddha taught he/she will realise the > relevance, > neetness, uniqueness,trustworthyness,ever-greenness, > reliability , > practicability etc according to his/her ability. > > > rgds. > 3047 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Q&A7 Dear Alex and friends, We have put the post about real/unreal things (no.1773 in the archives) up as Q&A7, in the Q&A section, in the website for easy reference. Alex, if you would like to edit anything please contact me off list, Amara 3048 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:16pm Subject: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Jim and friends, A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from and since when? Thanks in advance, Amara 3049 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:21pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- The commentary says that moral habit is the catupaisuddhi-sila. Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. That calm is the eight jhanas and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. What is catupaisuddhi-sila? What is nibheda? What is patinissaga? kom 3050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 11:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Kom, My spelling was a little off as usual. The CATUPARISUDDHI sila is the four precepts of purity. I don't have the pali of the visuddhimagga here in japan. But in the english text in the section on sila there are listed 4 types of sila (which may or may not be the catuparisuddhi sila): virtue of patimokkha restraint (i.e the monks rules), restraint of faculties, virtue of livelihood, and virtue dependent on requisites. NIBBHEDHA is dispassion Patinissagga is relinquishment. Robert --= Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > -----Original Message----- > The commentary says that moral habit is the > catupaisuddhi-sila. > Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. > That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. > That calm is the eight jhanas > and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, > anatta, > nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. > > What is catupaisuddhi-sila? > What is nibheda? > What is patinissaga? > > kom > 3051 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Amara, >Dear Jim and friends, > >A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my >incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or >the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the >Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from >and since when? It is a Mahayana sutra found in Sanskrit under the full name of the Vajracchedikaa-praj~naaparamitaa-suutra which is not in the Pali Tipitaka. I have E.Conze's translation of it in his 'Buddhist Wisdom Books' and from what I can gather it is a conversation between the Venerable Subhuti and the Buddha. Subhuti asks the Buddha some questions about the bodhisattva's vehicle. I checked for the name 'Subhuuti' in the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names and there are two Theras listed under that name and a Subhuuti Sutta (AN XI.15). I know very little about the historical origins of Mahayana sutras. Best wishes, Jim A. 3052 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Where in the Tipitaka? Hi khun Amara, As Jim said. It's in Mahayanna sutta. I have never read the whole sutta by myself but it was mentioned couple times in the book, a Journey to the West(Hsi-yu Chi)(A story of a monk from Tung dynasty went to India to obtain true interpretation of scripture with his 4 animal disciples). The following is a website that you can get a Diamond Sutra in English : http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/religion/Fac/Adler/Reln260/links260.htm That's all I know about it. Num 3053 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 2:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Kom, Thanks for your comment. Let me play an advocate. <> Do you think pannatti also has characters of anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti is not real in ultimate level but it can be an object to manodvara. <> So do you mean that reality has some properties which we may or may not know? I don't want to digress but let me add in some more questions to help my understanding a little bit. I used gravity and mag. field as examples in my previous mail, this time I will go to sth medical. Let say, "blood pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or the name definitely pannatti, I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and interdependent on numerous factors. Both are constantly change, nonself and not under any personal control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) or it a reflection of some properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? When a doctor measures BP or BS, he uses an indirect mean. I think he measures sth which I don't know how to call best. My argument is : Are those all just illusion. I simply ask what is the thing I think I know. <> So you said that there is some reality, even though it's there we may not able to experience due to level of panna? Or there are some realities that citta experienced but we just not able to be aware of (this time I mean sati as in satipatthana)? Hope my question is not too tangential. Bear with me. Appreciate Num 3054 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Hope you don't mind me replying to part of the letter to kom. --- wrote: > Hi Kom, > > Thanks for your comment. Let me play an advocate. > > < anicca, and > anatta, one can reach the end of suffering without knowing any > more.>> > > Do you think pannatti also has characters of > anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti > is not real in ultimate level but it can be an object to > manodvara. Pannatti(concept) is an object of manodvara. But it is not an object in the same way that paramattha dhammas are. Pannatti is not real at all thus it cannot have the charactersitics of realities - that they rise and fall away. > > So do you mean that reality has some properties which we may > or may not know? > I don't want to digress but let me add in some more questions > to help my > understanding a little bit. I used gravity and mag. field as > examples in my > previous mail, this time I will go to sth medical. Let say, > "blood > pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or the name > definitely pannatti, > I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and interdependent on > numerous > factors. Both are constantly change, nonself and not under > any personal > control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) or it a > reflection of some > properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? Some concepts are not even conventionally true - for example, flying purple elephant. Others refer to conventional truths- people call me Robert. Robert is only a concept but this does not mean there is nothing here. There are namas and rupas arising and passing away in a stream that has no beginning and that will not end unless parinibbana is attained. Not one nama or rupa in this continuos stream is exactly the same as another but the preceeding ones condition the ones arising now. Thus "Robert" a minute ago looks and sounds much like "Robert" now. As for blood pressure- this is a concept. However, it is based on the actual rupas (hardness, heat, vibration...) that are arising and passing away. The bloodpressure meter detects certain coarse qualities of these elements. It really amazes me how much science has discovered about the qualities of rupa .The findings of quantum physics are in-line to a appreciable degree with the nature of dhammas. Even so they cannot truly see the nature of rise and fall. And so physicists still think t is the same quark or electron or whatever that they see changing so incredibly rapidly. Robert 3055 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:38am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hello Amara at the following link you will find my very favourite translation of the Diamond Sutra, it is by Thich Naht Hanh. If you can find his book of the translation it has a great commentary not available on this site: http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Sut ra.htm I have heard that it is not exactly known who wrote the Prajna Paramita Sutras of which the Diamond Sutra is one, but there is a myth that Nagarjuna brought them back from the realm of the Nagas. (snakes or Dragons) That the Naga king came to Nagarjuna and told him that the 10,000 Buddhas had entrusted the Nagas with certain sutras and that it was not time for them to be disseminated and that it was Nagarjuna's job to do it. I think it is in Nepal that there is a temple with a door covering a cave, it is through this cave that Nagarjuna is said to have entered the Naga realm to obtain the sutras. If you read some of Nagarjuna's works like "Letter to a friend" or "Verses from the centre" you can see a great similarity in concepts and terminology, particularly references to emptiness. Many say that Nagarjuna is second only to Buddha in his effort to promote the Dharma for the benefit of all beings. Many also attribute Nagarjuna with being the original Mahayanist, if there is such a thing. I would thing Nagarjuna would say that there is no such thing as Hinyana or Mahayana, thats's why you can say that there is. I hope you enjoy the Diamond Sutra and benefit from it's teaching. --- "Amara" wrote: > Dear Jim and friends, > > A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my > incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or > the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the > Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from > and since when? > > Thanks in advance, > > Amara 3056 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > It is a Mahayana sutra found in Sanskrit under the full name of the > Vajracchedikaa-praj~naaparamitaa-suutra which is not in the Pali Tipitaka. I > have E.Conze's translation of it in his 'Buddhist Wisdom Books' and from > what I can gather it is a conversation between the Venerable Subhuti and the > Buddha. Subhuti asks the Buddha some questions about the bodhisattva's > vehicle. I checked for the name 'Subhuuti' in the Dictionary of Pali Proper > Names and there are two Theras listed under that name and a Subhuuti Sutta > (AN XI.15). I know very little about the historical origins of Mahayana > sutras. Dear Jim, No wonder we couldn't find it. I will look up the Subhuuti Sutta (AN XI.15). but I doubt it will be exactly the same. It's interesting but I must say that I find the Tipitaka more to my accumulated taste! Thank you for your help, Amara 3058 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:23pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > As Jim said. It's in Mahayanna sutta. I have never read the whole sutta by > myself but it was mentioned couple times in the book, a Journey to the > West(Hsi-yu Chi)(A story of a monk from Tung dynasty went to India to obtain > true interpretation of scripture with his 4 animal disciples). The > following is a website that you can get a Diamond Sutra in English : > > http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/religion/Fac/Adler/Reln260/links260.htm Dear Khun Num, Thank you so much for the link, isn't the internet a wonderful thing! I took a look at it this morning, it reminded me of a series of messages I exchanged with another member of this list, (though I haven't heard from him in a long time) in the early days, which are still in the archives- these are mine, 272, 294 and 308. Thanks again, Amara 3059 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Robert, welcome back! Missed you in the list [thats akuala of course] :o) rgds. vimutti saaraa sabbe dhammaa.. 3060 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert, In a response to Kom's questions you wrote: >NIBBHEDHA is dispassion >Patinissagga is relinquishment. >Robert Welcome back! I thought I'd point out an error in the spelling 'nibbhedha' which can easily get confused with the word 'nibbedha' which ~Naa.namoli & PED translates as 'penetration' as in nibbedha-bhaagiya. In the seven contemplations (anupassanaa-s) 'nibbidaa' is the correct spelling. Besides ~Naa.namoli's translation as 'dispassion', some other translations given in the PED are: weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, aversion, indifference, disenchantment. Jim A. 3061 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Jim, Thanks. I thought it looked funny. The translation I am using (Narada - guide to conditional relations p224, made the same mistake). I want to add that nibbidda is generally considered an advanced stage of insight. Although any moment where there is genuine insight comes with alobha and so is building some dispassion. It is of course nothing to do with aversion(dosa) to sense objects; which some of the synonyms translators use suggest. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert, > > In a response to Kom's questions you wrote: > > >NIBBHEDHA is dispassion > >Patinissagga is relinquishment. > >Robert > > Welcome back! I thought I'd point out an error in the spelling > 'nibbhedha' > which can easily get confused with the word 'nibbedha' which > ~Naa.namoli & > PED translates as 'penetration' as in nibbedha-bhaagiya. In > the seven > contemplations (anupassanaa-s) 'nibbidaa' is the correct > spelling. Besides > ~Naa.namoli's translation as 'dispassion', some other > translations given in > the PED are: weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, > aversion, > indifference, disenchantment. > > Jim A. > 3062 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 1:48pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > at the following link you will find my very favourite translation of > the Diamond Sutra, it is by Thich Naht Hanh. If you can find his book > of the translation it has a great commentary not available on this > site: > > http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Sut > ra.htm Welcome to the list, Abrennan! Thank you very much for the link, I am not familiar with mahayana teachings. > I have heard that it is not exactly known who wrote the Prajna > Paramita Sutras of which the Diamond Sutra is one, but there is a > myth that Nagarjuna brought them back from the realm of the Nagas. > (snakes or Dragons) That the Naga king came to Nagarjuna and told him > that the 10,000 Buddhas had entrusted the Nagas with certain sutras > and that it was not time for them to be disseminated and that it was > Nagarjuna's job to do it. I think it is in Nepal that there is a > temple with a door covering a cave, it is through this cave that > Nagarjuna is said to have entered the Naga realm to obtain the sutras. I know these are legends, but if you don't mind, it doesn't seem to me to be so logical since according to the vinaya a naga cannot become ordained in the Buddhist order, if I remember correctly. Why would he entrust this to nagas when others could do it as well, perhaps devas and such, if he did not trust humans whom he spent 45 years teaching and were arahanta? This is the kind of thing you would never get in the Tipitaka that I study, you see. > If you read some of Nagarjuna's works like "Letter to a friend" > or "Verses from the centre" you can see a great similarity in > concepts and terminology, particularly references to emptiness. > > Many say that Nagarjuna is second only to Buddha in his effort to > promote the Dharma for the benefit of all beings. Many also attribute > Nagarjuna with being the original Mahayanist, if there is such a > thing. I would thing Nagarjuna would say that there is no such thing > as Hinyana or Mahayana, thats's why you can say that there is. I hope > you enjoy the Diamond Sutra and benefit from it's teaching. I have no doubt that the naga do exist, but to say that they preach the dhamma better than say the venerable Sariputta whom even the brahma revered is to be carefully considered. If the teachings do not correspond with what the Buddha taught or in contradiction with the reasoning of the Dhamma as a whole, I would say whoever teaches it is not doing as much good as a student who knows only a few things but which are according to the Buddha's teachings and say it. I think of the first time the Venerable Sariputta heard the dhamma form the bhikkhu who hadn't attained anything but because what was said was the true dhamma, the Venerable Sariputta was able to understand and attained a level of wisdom before the person who taught it to him, according to his accumulations. Mostly I am interested in any teaching that teaches me about things I can prove for myself right now, in all the Tipitaka there are repeated teachings about the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, which we all possess, every entity form the lowest hell to the brahma world (except for the arupabrahma worlds), and the experiences we have from them lead to the belief of the self, instead of knowing that all realities arise and fall away, except for nibbana. What we can study at all times are the differences between all these realities, visible objects that arise even as we read this, the distinct sounds and touch of the computers and the chair, all can teach us about the different realities that we take for us and ours. The knowledge accumulated from this study could one day show us the true nature of namadhamma (realities that are intelligence which can experience and know things, such as the citta and the cetasika) and rupadhamma (realities that can experience nothing, like dead bodies, minerals, empty space). Only right understanding of things as they really are could lead to realization through experience of different levels of wisdom, to show is that there are in fact only successions of realities that arise and fall away, no self or the rest of the world as such, only nama and rupa of different kinds arising according to conditions. Any teaching that can lead me to that I would seriously study, otherwise there are many interesting things in life, and with my accumulated lobha, I enjoy quite a lot of them, even though I do not believe or lead my life according to them. Thank you very much for all your kindnesses, and anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 3063 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 2:23pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > Thank you so much for the link, isn't the internet a wonderful thing! > I took a look at it this morning, it reminded me of a series of > messages I exchanged with another member of this list, (though I > haven't heard from him in a long time) in the early days, which are > still in the archives- these are mine, 272, 294 and 308. Dear all, Sorry for my numerous careless mistakes, (although I am pretty sure I did not send my message to Jim twice, that was the server's error that seemed to have followed us here) I have another amendment to make, the message number in my discussions are 277, etc.(294 and 308 are right). Amara 3064 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:11pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > Do you think pannatti also has characters of > anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti > is not real in ultimate level but it can be an > object to manodvara. As Robert has mentioned, pannatti is not paramattha dhamma. It does not rise, it does not fall, and it doesn't have its own characteristics. It can be an object to manodvara (aramana-pacaya to mano-dvara cittas and cetasikas) even though it doesn't really exist. > > < properties of realities, or > it may be totally inaccurate For example, > Aristotle inferred that bird > feathers fall to the ground more slowly than a > piece of metal because it is > lighter. Pannatti is such: sometimes it is > reflexive of realities, sometimes > it is not.>> > > So do you mean that reality has some properties > which we may or may not know? Absolutely, had you ever understood, or directly known, what phassa was, before hearing Buddha's teachings? Do you know the properties of kaya-passadhi and citta-passadhi, again, without Buddha's teachings? How about kaya-vinnatti or vaji-vinnatti? > I don't want to digress but let me add in some > more questions to help my > understanding a little bit. I used gravity and > mag. field as examples in my > previous mail, this time I will go to sth > medical. Let say, "blood > pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or > the name definitely pannatti, > I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and > interdependent on numerous > factors. Both are constantly change, nonself > and not under any personal > control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) > or it a reflection of some > properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? I can think of three types of pannatti: 1) Pannatti that directly reflects the properties of ultimate realities, for example, cetana. 2) Pannatti that somewhat reflects the properties of ultimate relatiies, for example, Robert 3) Pannatti that doesn't exist at all, for example, freedom. Here's a classification of Pannatti's from Khun Amara's site: In the Abhidhammatthavibhavinitika, Chapter 8 there is a passage saying there are 6 nama-pannatti, namely: 1) Vijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for realities that exist such as rupa, nama, vedana, sanna etc. 2) Avijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms without existing realities such as Thai, "Farang" etc. There are no Thai or Farang, only realities that are citta, cetasika and rupa. Thai and Farang are conventional terms and not realities. Akusala citta are paramattha-dhamma, realities that exist, not Thai or Farang. Therefore akusala citta exist, as do kusala citta but Thai and Farang do not. The words Thai and Farang, therefore, are avijjamana-pannatti. 3) Vijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for non-existing with existing things. For example, to say that a person is called chalabhinna because of the meaning possessing the 6 abhinna; abhinna really exists but a person does not: such is the conventional term for non-existent with existent things. 4) Avijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for existent with non-existent things. For example, the sound of a woman: sound exists but a woman does not. 5) Vijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for things existent with existent things. For example, cakkhu-vinnana: cakkhu exists as cakkhuppasada, and vinnana exists as a consciousness. 6) Avijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for non-existent with non-existent such as the son of a king. (The son and the king are both conventional terms). > < never fully know what the true > characteristics of bhavarupa is, as it may not > appear to the person without > the appropriate level of panna.>> > > So you said that there is some reality, even > though it's there we may not > able to experience due to level of panna? Or > there are some realities that > citta experienced but we just not able to be > aware of (this time I mean sati > as in satipatthana)? I am uncertain what you are asking above here, as Satipatthana always arises with panna. However, panna arising with Satipatthana is certainly unequal from one citta to another, leaving alone citta of one person's to another's. Sharper panna can see the finer realities than panna not as sharp can. For example, as long as the teachings of Gotama Buddha lasts, there is probably no other human that can appreciate Buddha's intricate teachings than Sariputta. His panna is only second to the Buddha's. Hence, he can explain these intricate phenomenon based on what he directly experience like no other arahat disciples (and hence we have the Abhidhamma). If you are asking if there are cittas (without sati, and without panna) that experience all these other finer realities without the "person" realizing it, I cannot answer that question. For example, without phassa, there can be no citta arising. However, can a person go through their life without EVER having phassa as the aramana? I have not heard an answer to this question, but it seems to me a good probability. kom 3065 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Dear Bruce, got all the asubha, yes.. [as buddha adviced to recall] this has happened to me(and my loved ones) countless times in past, and they will happen in future too... Rgds. bruce on 01/26/2001 06:11:14 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") photographs in jpeg format; there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue crews at accident sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in bkk, who passed them on to his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java during the riots preceding suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese Bhikkhu... the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, and most of them are extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to contemplate the body's foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this too could happen to me tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group who would like to use them.... i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there are many list members who do not want to see them....if you would like me to send them to you in a zip file, please email me directly back-channel...i only ask that, if you request them, you simply state that you won't post them publicly....there is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of course, but for all the wrong reasons (imho...) bruce 3066 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? --- "Amara" wrote: > > I know these are legends, but if you don't mind, it doesn't seem to me > to be so logical since according to the vinaya a naga cannot become > ordained in the Buddhist order, if I remember correctly. Why would he > entrust this to nagas when others could do it as well, perhaps devas > and such, if he did not trust humans whom he spent 45 years teaching > and were arahanta? I think more to the point is that at the end of his life Buddha tells Ananda (I think) that he has taught everything with an open hand, holding nothing back that would bring the practice to its fruition. So I would think it IS a myth that the Prajna Paramita Sutras were kept back and transmitted to Nagarjuna much later. What was it that had you looking for the Diamond Sutra in the first place? > Mostly I am interested in any teaching that teaches me about things I > can prove for myself right now, etc This is the very thing that attracts me to the BuddhaDhamma A lotus for you 3067 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 8:24pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > I think more to the point is that at the end of his life Buddha tells > Ananda (I think) that he has taught everything with an open hand, > holding nothing back that would bring the practice to its fruition. > So I would think it IS a myth that the Prajna Paramita Sutras were > kept back and transmitted to Nagarjuna much later. Dear friend, Exactly. > What was it that had you looking for the Diamond Sutra in the first > place? It was mentioned by someone who came to one of our dhamma discussions in Bangkok and I had never heard of it. As the person went back to his country I did not have a chance to ask him about it again, and forgot about it until now. Thank you again, my friends, once again I have learned a lot from this list, Amara 3068 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense doors....in other > words: formal practice..... Dear Bruce, I hope you and Robert could join us for a tour of India one day, and have some just as nice days as you did in Nara! About 'formal practice', though, as Robert mentioned, it was never mentioned as a prerequisite for panna. Satipatthana is however mentioned as the vipassana bhavana, or mental development. And one of the conditions and support for the arising of satipatthana are the four sampajana, which Satisotujana, a member of this list, brought up some time ago. These are exerpts of what I wrote about them then, I thought you might find them interesting: from no. 1109: As Khun Sujin explained and if I remember correctly, sampajanna precedes as well as supports satipatthana, while yoniso manasikara accompanies it. Sampajanna means not only clear but thorough and in all areas, for example sapaya sampajanna means to know what is convenient and benificient: does one have to wait for the evening to go to a Karaoke to see if one can have sati there or can we just be where we are, right now there are conditions for us to be here in front of the computer screen and study realities as they appear? And I was once in a nightclub in Paris with some friends and I could not stop some fleeting awareness from arising even if I had wanted to. Does location really matter? In one of the commentaries, seeing the chedi of a temple (in India) had been conditions for thousands of bhikkhus to attain stages of enlightenment, on hearing this many would try to rush there and try it out. They forget the bhikkhus LIVE where they see it daily. The commentary also says that when there are festivals when the towns people flock there it might not be the sapaya for some. Another is gojara sampajanna. Gojara is the place one travels to which is the place one is in or the path one takes. The places sati arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to continue to arise.(...) from no. 1145: I have been thinking about your question, and I think we may safely say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to know what is good for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what is less suitable for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, asammoha sampajanna is also to know the difference between ignorance and right understanding, an essential prerequisite for panna that sees things as they really are. Sati sampajanna on the other hand is to be aware through all the dvara without prejudices or preferences. The first comes before the latter begins, and continues to support its future arising. from no. 1173: I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations and level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the streets. The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where he was. The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his level also. The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern streets? But now that I think about it, how would one know if it hasn't happened? That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied, therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right understanding. and lastly, 1223: Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on the other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, whatever comes could be studied. Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- with-moha or wrong understanding). I think all four help each other and awareness (satipatthana) to arise, (End multiple quotes!!!) Phew! I think I got most of it! Any way, do tell me what you think of it all, Amara 3069 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Kom and Robert, Robert: please do not feel reluctant to step in or correct me if I am kind of off the track. Every input is very welcome. <> So you mean pannatti is not sankhatadhamma, I mean simply b/c it not even exists. But pannatti needs causes and conditions to occur as well, right? For example when the baby just born, he did not know any name, meaning or vocabulary but as he grows up, he accumulates and associates sound or sight with meaning. He slowly learns to have verbal and nonverbal language. Interesting, pannatti can be a dhammaramana only to manodvra but it's not even real. I can see why pannatti is not paramatthadhamma. <> Let me clarify then. The same as a baby. We can see and hear since we were born but we didn't have sati as in satipatthana until we have studied dhamma. Definitely we have experienced paramatthadhamma whether we have studied dhamma or not. So in the case of bhavarupa, I meant to ask that have we already experienced bhavarupa but we just were unable to be aware of bhavarupa b/c (i can your wording now) we do not enough panna. Last one for this mail. Where do you put mathematics fact, e.g., 2+2=4, in those 6 categories of Pannati. It's a fact but it's not real. I think it falls in Avijjamana-pannatti. Anyway how you categorize number in term of namapannatti? Alright. I am glad that I have signed into this group. Num 3070 From: Amara Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 10:59am Subject: Re: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) > The places sati > arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for > example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more > condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to > continue to arise.(...) Please note that the above (from no. 1109) was later amended by '... the bhavanga has the unique function of life continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and rupa) alive during that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of the kamma they have done. It does not accumulate anything further, it just passes on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, although all the cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything further, not even if they arise then.' (from no. 1113) Amara 3071 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? hello all, just getting to this thread about the Diamond Sutra. Now, whether this discourse comes from the Buddha, or from a relative to the nâga that covered the Buddha while he was meditating after coming to awakening and it was raining, or whether it was someone who wanted to give it the possibility of a respectful first reading and so claimed it was from the Buddha, ... hmmmm, didn't the Buddha say not to believe a teaching even if the person heard it from the Buddha's lips themselves? anyway, generational chit-chat aside (leaving aside the question of where the sutra came from) .... it is definitely in Sanskrit. I have read it a number of times. It is not that long, especially by the standard of some texts such as the Avatamsaka Sutra, or even some of the suttas in the Digha Nikaya, for that matter. It is held in respect for its depth of teaching (I paraphrase what I have heard in various quarters). Also in Ch'an tradition, it has a special standing because it is a verse from this sutra that Hui Neng is said to have heard that led him to Buddhist studies. He was later to become the sixth Zen Patriarch (Zen being the Japanese cognate to the Chinese term, Ch'an, of course). We may remember that Sariputta and Mahamoggallana also heard a verse and were led to seek out the Buddha. (Hui Neng was born much too late for that to happen.) Some may find part of the Diamond Sutra familiar if they have watched the entire film, Little Buddha. The verse that Hui Neng is said to have heard concerned the creation of an unsupported thought. I once read a little book by Takuan Sôhô, The Unfettered Mind and it discusses a similar idea, the unresting mind (omushoju jijogoshin). So it is relatedly given much respect. Of course, the Tibetans are not exactly mere followers of the Ch'an school! So the respect given this sutra goes beyond Ch'an! jinavamsa ========== --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > I think more to the point is that at the end of his life Buddha > tells > > Ananda (I think) that he has taught everything with an open hand, > > holding nothing back that would bring the practice to its fruition. > > So I would think it IS a myth that the Prajna Paramita Sutras were > > kept back and transmitted to Nagarjuna much later. > > > Dear friend, > > Exactly. > > > > What was it that had you looking for the Diamond Sutra in the first > > place? > > > It was mentioned by someone who came to one of our dhamma discussions > in Bangkok and I had never heard of it. As the person went back to > his country I did not have a chance to ask him about it again, and > forgot about it until now. > > Thank you again, my friends, once again I have learned a lot from this > list, > > Amara 3072 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:00pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > So you mean pannatti is not > sankhatadhamma, I mean simply b/c it not > even exists. But pannatti needs causes and > conditions to occur as well, > right? The conditioned dhamma has to be paramattha dhamma. The conditioning dhamma doesn't have to be paramatha dhamma. For example, pannatti can be aramana-pacaya to the citta. However, pannatti doesn't need to be conditioned to arise since it doesn't arise. There is also no conditions for nibhanna, even if it is paramattha dhamma, since it doesn't arise. >For example when the baby just born, he > did not know any name, > meaning or vocabulary but as he grows up, he > accumulates and associates sound > or sight with meaning. He slowly learns to have > verbal and nonverbal Pannatti is not only the verbal and non-verbal languages. The association of something as being something is already pannatti. For example, the association of a baby crib as being a thing is already pannatti. The association of this thing having a color is already pannatti. Baby's cittas cognize pannatti as aramana way before he knows any languages. > Let me clarify then. The same as a baby. We can > see and hear since we were > born but we didn't have sati as in satipatthana > until we have studied dhamma. As also mentioned in the previous message, do you remember having phassa as aramana? Even without satipatthana, do you remember having anger as aramana? Lobha? What about kaya-vinatti, kaya-passadhi? > Last one for this mail. Where do you put > mathematics fact, e.g., 2+2=4, in > those 6 categories of Pannati. It's a fact but > it's not real. I think it > falls in Avijjamana-pannatti. Anyway how you > categorize number in term of > namapannatti? This one is beyond me... kom 3073 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, You've certainly make a grand entrance to the list and have given our 'experts' some really challenging questions! I really appreciate hearing your questions and their responses and seeing how serious you are in your study of dhamma. Thanks for joining us and BTW can you also let us know a little more about yourself such as where you're based and where you've been studying abhidhamma. There's little I can add to all the other comments, but to make this post more 'dhammic' I'll try making a few short comments too. --- wrote: > Hi Kom and Robert, > > Let me clarify then. The same as a baby. We can > see and hear since we were > born but we didn't have sati as in satipatthana > until we have studied dhamma. > Definitely we have experienced paramatthadhamma > whether we have studied > dhamma or not. So in the case of bhavarupa, I meant > to ask that have we > already experienced bhavarupa but we just were > unable to be aware of > bhavarupa b/c (i can your wording now) we do not > enough panna. > The Buddha taught us about all the paramatthadhamma which make up our lives. Of course there are some (such as when experiencing jhanas) which do not make up our lives, but let us leave these aside for now. All the other complicated and intricate details, including all the rupas, are being experienced all the time without any knowing or understanding on our part. This is true for a baby or an adult. The world of concepts (and Kom has explained all the different kinds) begin as soon as this life starts. Again as Kom has explained, this world isn't dependent on words. Whether or not any panna develops in this life, the intricate realities will continue to exist and the cittas which think will continue to spin out those concepts. If a little panna begins to develop because we've heard, read and considered about what realities are, the realities and concepts for all intents and purposes which make up our lives will continue as they have done so. In other words, although a few of these realities may be understood more precisely and the truth of anatta may become clearer, the 'world' continues as before as described by the Buddha. This is true of realities which can be known now, such as seeing and hearing and lobha and dosa, and realities which probably can't be known now, such as bhavarupa or bhavanga citta. Does this clarify at all? I'm not sure! > Last one for this mail. Where do you put > mathematics fact, e.g., 2+2=4, in > those 6 categories of Pannati. It's a fact but it's > not real. I think it > falls in Avijjamana-pannatti. Anyway how you > categorize number in term of > namapannatti? I don't mean to be rude, but although this is interesting speculation, will it help you to develop more understanding of the realities appearing now? In Cambodia recently, Khun Sujin reminded us when we were studying abhidhamma, to study realities and not words. Best regards and looking forward to hearing many more of your questions! > > Alright. I am glad that I have signed into this > group. > We're glad too, Sarah 3074 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Let's not get carried away--some recent posts of > yours > make you familiarity with the tripitaka quite > clear--and quite clearly beyond my own. Mike, mostly 'bluff' I assure you! > > > BTW, I meant to thank you for also posting the > link > > and comments on Piyajatika Sutta (From One Who is > > Dear). It's been a condition for some useful > > reflection even though I had nothing to add > because > > the Sutta really said it all! > > I do hope you'll go to the trouble of looking up the > PTS translation. You (or another scholar) could > probably correct me on this, but 'Born of Affection' > seems to me much more to the point than 'From One > Who > Is Dear'. > > mn > I no longer have the PTS edition. In BB's edition (MN ii 1O6), he uses 'Born from Those Who Are Dear'.... 'Sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are born from those who are dear, arise from those who are dear.' Jim may have comments on the translation which would be more appropriate than mine! Maybe I'll start repeating this for my mantra! Sarah p.s. I think 'nam'myoho renge kyo' was quite right. I had confidence that out of all your experience, you'd be able to provide the answer....I've got the 'beat' going in my head now! 3075 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Teng Kee, It's really great to welcome another translator and Pali expert to the list. As I just said to Num, if you feel like giving us a few more details about yourself that would be great too (but certainly not compulsory). --- teng kee ong wrote: > > We can only find thai transltaion of complete > tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at > this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc > only kept most of them in leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for > PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and > edition of Pali text been used. I'm not quite clear on this, but as Robert said, let us know if we can help. (Even if it's just to hear the frustrations!) This is not so for > thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to > translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest > problem is those notes that I must add. O.K. let me start by giving you a qu. on this: I'm looking at Puggalapannatti (Designation of Human Types) (PTS, p.38 Division by Two). 20." 'Which two persons are rare in this world? He who does good first* and he who recognises it:**-these two persons are rare in this world.' *Pubbakari- A person who does good to others before getting benefit from them (Comm). ** Or is grateful, katannukatavedi. It means that a person who after having known that he has got some benefit from others does benefit to them afterwards. The difference between the two is this, that the former thinks that the debt becomes due to him and the latter holds that he is paying off his debt (Comm)." The quote in the text seems quite clear to me. It's talking about rare kinds of kusala (skilful deeds). The comm. note (esp. the last one) is totally confusing to me. You may like to give me another translation! > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not > a gook work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or > even Japanese translations were not been used at > all.Someone can help even he don't know those > languages. I haven't seen it yet, but I'll be interested to hear any details or discussion on the SN suttas w/comm notes. Of course access to all useful texts is important and so is the understanding of the translator I find. There are too many things he can't offer > any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. Pls elaborate. Thanks for sharing your views and I look forward to hearing more. 3077 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 5:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi sarah thanks for your very thoughtful reply...i really appreciate your working through my post.... > So obviously you found that on the Japanese crowded > subways and trains there was plenty of useful > reflection and possibly moments of sati without any > special planning in advance... yes, very much....these places seem quite conducive to moments of object-awareness at the dvaras...and i think it's very much because i'm in a situation that does not, as i said in my original post, demand conceptualization: waiting on a subway platform, or hanging on a commuter-strap as the train races into the city; nobody is speaking to me, asking me to do anything; i don't *have to* consider anything at the conceptual level....it's at these moments when demands are not being made from without, that i remember and take notice of what is entering at one of the dvaras....i realize of course that this awareness can just as easily happen in the middle of someone saying "do you remember where joe told us he was going to put the files from last week's meeting about the new snakes?..." it just seems that it's much less likely, and that the external demands of non-sitting situations exponentially increase our tendency to remain mired in concepts... apologies, by the way, if what i relate sounds, um, selfish, as i continue to return to my personal experiences...i really don't have anything else to go on.... > > i also thought about how it might be possible to > > nurture the process: by > > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with > > the wise; by trying to > > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i > > keep coming back to the > > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to > > disengage from the continuous > > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and > > to give my attention > > completely and simply to what is arising at the six > > sense doors....in other > > words: formal practice..... > > I think we all agree that the development of > understanding and awareness are of prime importance. I > think we also agree that they can only know and be > aware of realities at the present moment (i.e. not of > concepts and not at any other time). I think we also > agree that these realities are conditioned in many > complex ways and are anatta (not self)...O.K? Can we > also agree that although it seems that WE can make > choices and decisions in life that this is an > illusion? i think we can agree, although my agreement wavers a bit when it comes to the last question.... and that's another topic: how free, really, is the will? oh, and i'm very much looking forward to nina's writing on viriya cetasika....if that one is on-line, pls send a url.... sarah, there was a lot more to your post i wanted to address, but may not get around to, except to say thanks; for now i want to get this bit in the mail, as my must-replies are starting to build up....which reminds me: i never thanked jonathan and others for the excellent responses to my first "sitting" query:: so pls know that your careful responses were much appreciated....i just got *very* caught up in the process of learning how not to smoke.....please know that i read and consider as much as humanly possible, but those first few weeks without said drug i was feeling far from human >:-) anumodana bruce 3078 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, I thought I'd would take the chance to look at one point in your letter to Sarah. --- Sarah wrote: > Can we > > also agree that although it seems that WE can make > > choices and decisions in life that this is an > > illusion? " ____ And you replied "my agreement wavers a bit when > it comes to > the last question...." ________________ This is THE big one. This is what Buddhist understanding leads us to see. It goes against our commonsense perception of the world. Yet the strange truth is that- at the deepest level- there is no control. Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes: “Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions” (end quote) We think 'I' am having insight. No, not so. If it is real insight it is simply a kusala citta(momentary consciousness) associated with panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) that takes a paramattha dhamma as object and sees some aspect of it correctly. Panna cetasika doesn't try to know this, it doesn't even want to know this. But its kicca(function) is to understand. On the other hand if it is imitation insight then it is akusala citta arising with a subtle type of avijja that misunderstands, that is mistaking concept for something real. Avijja has no wish to distort but its function is to obscure, that is what it does. It is also not self. Not your avijja, or mine. An example of imitation insight. One feels the subtle sensations and vibrations in the body and assumes this is now direct insight. But there can still be a deep-rooted idea that these are particles. That they have some type of lasting existence, that they have time to "vibrate" or do something. There is not yet insight into paramattha. Avijja is still running among concepts - even if there is no thinking in words. True insight slowly understands the characteristic, cause, and function of rupas as well as other dhammas. It will distinguish between concept and reality. "We" can't know the difference - but if the right conditions are nurtured then panna must develop and see. The problem, of course, is that there are powerful conditions for avijja to arise. It has been arising, almost without break, ever since we took birth. That is just this life - there is no beginning to the round of samsara, and avijja is the cause of it all. Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises due to hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly cognise dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think. Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the task? Can we understand that it is not us being patient? Robert 3079 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) ok -- lemme get this straight in as few words as possible. we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take a left or a right here at this fork in the road.... but we choose one or the other according to conditions. the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... (i have to state this simply -- though i know the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) ....and these conditions were themselves determined by previous conditions, in a chain that just keeps going back.... and not just thinking about this but really seeing and knowing it -- real, non-conceptual insight-- is what breaks the chain... **bing!! light bulbs and piti!!!** you're a really good teacher robert thanks for the right words bruce At 02:35 2001/01/30 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > I thought I'd would take the chance to look at one point in your > letter to Sarah. > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Can we > > > also agree that although it seems that WE can make > > > choices and decisions in life that this is an > > > illusion? " > ____ > > And you replied "my agreement wavers a bit when > > it comes to > > the last question...." > > > ________________ > This is THE big one. This is what Buddhist understanding leads > us to see. It goes against our commonsense perception of the > world. Yet the strange truth is that- at the deepest level- > there is no control. > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) > xxvii writes: $BE#(Jecause the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and > 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)$BG*(J can perform$BG(Jand > 4) $BE*(J can feel$BG(J > Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions$BG(J(end quote) > > We think 'I' am having insight. No, not so. If it is real > insight it is simply a kusala citta(momentary consciousness) > associated with panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) that > takes a paramattha dhamma as object and sees some aspect of it > correctly. Panna cetasika doesn't try to know this, it doesn't > even want to know this. But its kicca(function) is to > understand. On the other hand if it is imitation insight then it > is akusala citta arising with a subtle type of avijja that > misunderstands, that is mistaking concept for something real. > Avijja has no wish to distort but its function is to obscure, > that is what it does. It is also not self. Not your avijja, or > mine. > An example of imitation insight. One feels the subtle sensations > and vibrations in the body and assumes this is now direct > insight. But there can still be a deep-rooted idea that these > are particles. That they have some type of lasting existence, > that they have time to "vibrate" or do something. There is not > yet insight into paramattha. Avijja is still running among > concepts - even if there is no thinking in words. > True insight slowly understands the characteristic, cause, and > function of rupas as well as other dhammas. It will distinguish > between concept and reality. "We" can't know the difference - > but if the right conditions are nurtured then panna must develop > and see. > The problem, of course, is that there are powerful conditions > for avijja to arise. It has been arising, almost without break, > ever since we took birth. That is just this life - there is no > beginning to the round of samsara, and avijja is the cause of it > all. Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises due to > hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly cognise > dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think. > Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the task? Can we > understand that it is not us being patient? > Robert > 3080 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi amara thanks so much for all this information....i need to and read these passages again and again, and i'm really grateful that you did the research for me in the group's files...i now have a starting point....due to time constraints, i'd put my goal of reading the entire archive pretty much on hold, but now at least i know there is a place where i can dive right in and the water will be warm! :-) i certainly need to study the concept of sampajanna from the beginning, and this will help immensely.... anumodana bruce At 14:46 2001/01/29 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the > process: by > > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by > trying to > > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back > to the > > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the > continuous > > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my > attention > > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense > doors....in other > > words: formal practice..... > > > Dear Bruce, > > I hope you and Robert could join us for a tour of India one day, and > have some just as nice days as you did in Nara! About 'formal > practice', though, as Robert mentioned, it was never mentioned as a > prerequisite for panna. Satipatthana is however mentioned as the > vipassana bhavana, or mental development. And one of the conditions > and support for the arising of satipatthana are the four sampajana, > which Satisotujana, a member of this list, brought up some time ago. > These are exerpts of what I wrote about them then, I thought you might > find them interesting: > > from no. 1109: > As Khun Sujin explained and if I remember correctly, sampajanna > precedes as well as supports satipatthana, while yoniso manasikara > accompanies it. Sampajanna means not only clear but thorough and in > all areas, for example sapaya sampajanna means to know what is > convenient and benificient: does one have to wait for the evening to > go to a Karaoke to see if one can have sati there or can we just be > where we are, right now there are conditions for us to be here in > front of the computer screen and study realities as they appear? And I > was once in a nightclub in Paris with some friends and I could not > stop some fleeting awareness from arising even if I had wanted to. > Does location really matter? In one of the commentaries, seeing the > chedi of a temple (in India) had been conditions for thousands of > bhikkhus to attain stages of enlightenment, on hearing this many would > try to rush there and try it out. They forget the bhikkhus LIVE where > they see it daily. The commentary also says that when there are > festivals when the towns people flock there it might not be the sapaya > for some. > > Another is gojara sampajanna. Gojara is the place one travels to > which is the place one is in or the path one takes. The places sati > arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for > example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more > condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to > continue to arise.(...) > > > from no. 1145: > I have been thinking about your question, and I think we may safely > say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to know what is good > for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what is less suitable > for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, asammoha sampajanna is > also to know the difference between ignorance and right understanding, > an essential prerequisite for panna that sees things as they really > are. Sati sampajanna on the other hand is to be aware through all the > dvara without prejudices or preferences. The first comes before the > latter begins, and continues to support its future arising. > > > from no. 1173: > I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations and > level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a > bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some > reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and he > studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the streets. > The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and the samanera > thought he might help the elder so he went back to him and told him to > go and look at the same place, while he waited where he was. The > bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his level also. The > thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of thing sapaya, nor that > it would be so easily found in modern streets? But now that I think > about it, how would one know if it hasn't happened? That's the thing > with sapaya, isn't it, you don't have to worry about anything, > whatever comes can be studied, therefore all aramana can be convenient > and beneficial with right understanding. > > and lastly, 1223: > > Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on the > other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, whatever > comes could be studied. > > Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- > with-moha or wrong understanding). > > I think all four help each other and awareness (satipatthana) to > arise, > > > (End multiple quotes!!!) > > Phew! I think I got most of it! Any way, do tell me what you think of > it all, > > Amara > 3081 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take a left > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > but we choose one or the other according to conditions. Right. > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > ....and these conditions were themselves > determined by previous conditions, > in a chain that just keeps going back.... Right! > > and not just thinking about this > but really seeing and knowing it > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > is what breaks the chain... > Right! Just while the light bulbs are still illuminating Nara here is a deep section from the commentaries . Sammanaphala sutta (trans. as discourse on fruits of recluseship by Bodhi) One phrase from the sutta says "in looking ahead and looking aside he acts with clear comprehension". {Note this is just a slight twist of the head or movement of the eyes} The commentary(p120): "thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these five aggregates. Therein, who is it that looks ahead or looks aside?" The tika: The meaning is there is no one who looks ahead, no one who looks aside. The commentary: So, too the eye is the eye base; form is the form base;seeing is the mind base;the associated phenomena such as feeling etc. are the mind-object base. thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these four sense bases." Next the commentary lists some of the conditions (paccaya explained in great detail in the Patthana- 7th book of the Abhidhamma) "So, too the eye is a support condition for seeing; forms are an object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive support, absence, and disapearance condition; light is a decisive support condition; feeling, etc. are conascence conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these conditions" end quote. We usually have no problem in understanding that such things as heartbeat and blood pumping around the body are conditioned phenomena, not under control. (but even these we still cling to as self) However, even most buddhists - who have heard about anatta-don't realise that activities involving 'choice' are still not under anyones control. I go to get a glass of water. Surely that is in my control? In a conventional sense, in the world of concepts, yes it is. But we don't see the subtle interplay of conditions - past and present; so complex and hidden by avijja. The feeling of thirst arose because of different conditions. The thought to get water - again conditioned. And so it goes on and on. That is life in any plane. What is sad is that for so long we have been deluded into believing that it is all "me"- avijja has run among concepts. With the Dhamma we learn about a new world, the real world, of namas and rupas. Robert 3082 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) robert this is great passage, deep but very clear, thanks so much bruce At 03:52 2001/01/30 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > --- bruce wrote: > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take a left > > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > > > but we choose one or the other according to conditions. > > Right. > > > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > > determined by previous conditions, > > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > Right! > > > > and not just thinking about this > > but really seeing and knowing it > > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > > is what breaks the chain... > > > Right! > > Just while the light bulbs are still illuminating Nara here is a > deep section from the commentaries . > Sammanaphala sutta (trans. as discourse on fruits of recluseship > by Bodhi) > One phrase from the sutta says "in looking ahead and looking > aside he acts with clear comprehension". {Note this is just a > slight twist of the head or movement of the eyes} > The commentary(p120): "thus looking ahead and looking aside are > discerned in the assemblage of these five aggregates. Therein, > who is it that looks ahead or looks aside?" > The tika: The meaning is there is no one who looks ahead, no one > who looks aside. > The commentary: So, too the eye is the eye base; form is the > form base;seeing is the mind base;the associated phenomena such > as feeling etc. are the mind-object base. thus looking ahead and > looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these four > sense bases." > Next the commentary lists some of the conditions (paccaya > explained in great detail in the Patthana- 7th book of the > Abhidhamma) > "So, too the eye is a support condition for seeing; forms are an > object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive > support, absence, and disapearance condition; light is a > decisive support condition; feeling, etc. are conascence > conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned > in the assemblage of these conditions" end quote. > > We usually have no problem in understanding that such things as > heartbeat and blood pumping around the body are conditioned > phenomena, not under control. (but even these we still cling to > as self) However, even most buddhists - who have heard about > anatta-don't realise that activities involving 'choice' are > still not under anyones control. > I go to get a glass of water. Surely that is in my control? In > a conventional sense, in the world of concepts, yes it is. But > we don't see the subtle interplay of conditions - past and > present; so complex and hidden by avijja. The feeling of thirst > arose because of different conditions. The thought to get water > - again conditioned. And so it goes on and on. That is life in > any plane. What is sad is that for so long we have been deluded > into believing that it is all "me"- avijja has run among > concepts. > With the Dhamma we learn about a new world, the real world, of > namas and rupas. > Robert > 3083 From: Amara Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Jina, Thanks for the additional information, Amara > just getting to this thread about the Diamond Sutra. Now, > whether this discourse comes from the Buddha, or from a > relative to the nâga that covered the Buddha while he > was meditating after coming to awakening and it was raining, > or whether it was someone who wanted to give it the possibility > of a respectful first reading and so claimed it was from the > Buddha, ... hmmmm, didn't the Buddha say not to believe a > teaching even if the person heard it from the Buddha's lips > themselves? anyway, generational chit-chat aside (leaving > aside the question of where the sutra came from) .... it is > definitely in Sanskrit. I have read it a number of times. > It is not that long, especially by the standard of some texts > such as the Avatamsaka Sutra, or even some of the suttas in > the Digha Nikaya, for that matter. It is held in respect for > its depth of teaching (I paraphrase what I have heard in various > quarters). Also in Ch'an tradition, it has a special standing > because it is a verse from this sutra that Hui Neng is said to > have heard that led him to Buddhist studies. He was later to > become the sixth Zen Patriarch (Zen being the Japanese cognate > to the Chinese term, Ch'an, of course). We may remember that > Sariputta and Mahamoggallana also heard a verse and were led > to seek out the Buddha. (Hui Neng was born much too late for > that to happen.) Some may find part of the Diamond Sutra familiar > if they have watched the entire film, Little Buddha. The verse > that Hui Neng is said to have heard concerned the creation of > an unsupported thought. I once read a little book by Takuan > Sôhô, The Unfettered Mind and it discusses a similar idea, the > unresting mind (omushoju jijogoshin). So it is relatedly given > much respect. Of course, the Tibetans are not exactly mere > followers of the Ch'an school! So the respect given this sutra > goes beyond Ch'an! 3084 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 0:22am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert et Al, Are their any other conditions for Satipatthana to arise besides the firm and right understandings of dhamma? kom 3085 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 0:21am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > I'm looking at Puggalapannatti (Designation of Human > Types) (PTS, p.38 Division by Two). Do you by any chance have the Nikaya (and number) where this sutta resides? > *Pubbakari- A person who does good to others before > getting benefit from them (Comm). > ** Or is grateful, katannukatavedi. It means that a > person who after having known that he has got some > benefit from others does benefit to them afterwards. > The difference between the two is this, that the > former thinks that the debt becomes due to him and the > latter holds that he is paying off his debt (Comm)." > > The quote in the text seems quite clear to me. It's > talking about rare kinds of kusala (skilful deeds). > The comm. note (esp. the last one) is totally > confusing to me. You may like to give me another > translation! Although I haven't seen this sutta or the commentaries myself, the words pubbakari and katannuakatavedi are conveniently common in the Thai language. Pubbakari often refers to your parents or teachers, and the persons having katannukatavedi are often children or pupils. I feel indebted to my parents and my teachers, and therefore I can see how the commentaries give such a comment. However, coming from the point of Pubbakari thinking that debts should be paid to him is harder. I often see my parents and teachers give without obvious reasons except for the benefits of me: I can't see how they are getting any (immediate) thing out of it, or that they are expecting that they will get any (non-immediate) thing out of it. Surely, there are examples of persons being pubbakari or having katannuakatavedi without feeling that they are due, or that they are indebted, because that implies attachment to self. For example, Buddha is Pubbakari like no other Pubbakari. I certainly don't understand how he could have thought he was either the giver or the person whose debt would become due. Sariputta always showed respect to Assachi out of his katannuakatavedi wherever he was. However, I don't understand how he could have thought of himself as the receiver, nor the person who is indebted. kom 3086 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi all, I agree with Jina that we probably cannot know who exactly gave the discourse on Diamond sutra. I just finished reading the English version of the sutras last night. My impression is it's very similar to a lot of Pali suttas that I have read. Mainly talking about nonself and disintegrated the thing that we hold as person, self or even the Buddha. Remind of a story in Tipitaka that a monk tried to closely follow the Buddha everywhere but the Buddha with his intuitive panna told the monk that "he who sees dhamma, sees the Buddha. A person who sits next to him may not even exactly see him". I could not recall the name of that monk at this moment I don't know much about Mahayanna but to me the core is very similar to Theravada. Num 3087 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Hi Sarah, Just like to share some minor inputs to the word in your mail. It just happened that I am somewhat interested in the link between English and Pali-Sanskrit b/c they both share common origin, Indo-European language. I am not a linguistic expert though. Pubba, B can be substituted by R pura --> per or pre in English, which means before or first. The word purana in Sanskrit means ancient. Vedi or veda mean knowledge --> root of the word wisdom in English. You can learn more at the site dictionary.com Hope it is somewhat helpful. Num 3088 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 2:17am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? hello Num, I do not at the moment remember the name of the monk in the story you recount here. I do recall having heard this as part of a larger incident, at least if I'm linking the correct two together. There was a monk who found the Buddha very physically attractive. The Buddha is said to have been handsome. His skin was a beautiful color. Well, suva.n.na means both well-tinted and golden. So we might say he had a golden skin or a beautiful color of skin. In any case, the Buddha realized that this monk was following him around all the time simply to see his beauty. At that moment the Buddha gave his teaching as you quote (about He who sees the Buddha sees the Dhamma, etc.) The monk in question became quite despondent, depressed, and went off to medidate and perhaps to kill himself. The Buddha appeared to him and cleared the man's mind. Is this the same story you are thinking of? Maybe I'll remember the monk's name .... jinavamsa --- wrote: > Hi all, > > I agree with Jina that we probably cannot know who exactly gave the discourse > on Diamond sutra. I just finished reading the English version of the sutras > last night. My impression is it's very similar to a lot of Pali suttas that I > have read. Mainly talking about nonself and disintegrated the thing that we > hold as person, self or even the Buddha. Remind of a story in Tipitaka that > a monk tried to closely follow the Buddha everywhere but the Buddha with his > intuitive panna told the monk that "he who sees dhamma, sees the Buddha. A > person who sits next to him may not even exactly see him". I could not > recall the name of that monk at this moment > > I don't know much about Mahayanna but to me the core is very similar to > Theravada. > > Num > > > 3089 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 2:21am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst hi Num, a minor point on a minor input :>) re pubba in Pali. In Pali doubled consonants (to speak generally) may well represent two distinct consonants in the related Vedic or Sanskrit cognate; the length of the preceding vowel may differ in certain systematic ways, as well. pubba in Pali corresponds to what would usually be transliterated into Latin as (Sanskrit) pûrva. I'm not sure of the fuller context of this question. jinavamsa --- wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Just like to share some minor inputs to the word in your mail. It just > happened that I am somewhat interested in the link between English and > Pali-Sanskrit b/c they both share common origin, Indo-European language. I am > not a linguistic expert though. > > Pubba, B can be substituted by R pura --> per or pre in English, which means > before or first. The word purana in Sanskrit means ancient. > Vedi or veda mean knowledge --> root of the word wisdom in English. > > You can learn more at the site dictionary.com > > Hope it is somewhat helpful. > Num 3090 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 9:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Sarah, <> I have to decline your statement this time. I am considered myself as a beginner. Dhamma is very deep and bottomless to me. I felt like, as someone mentioned in the mail earlier, I am only a frog happened to hear the Buddha discourse. And at times all I can say is "this stuff is good". <> Remind me of Milindapanha when the King asked Ven.Nakasana about himself. Can I be a little semantic? In the reality I am nothing just temporary aggregation of Sankara. Let come back to pannatti world : I am now in St.Louis, Missouri USA. I am Thai in origin. Well, let see, I am a psychiatrist. I am an instructor at a Med. School in St.Louis. I mainly teach and do research in genetics of mental disorder. My first interest in Buddhism is when I was younger, I read Milindapanya from my grandfather books collection. And as I said, I was fascinated by the method those two persons discoursed. That's my very first book, took me more than a year to finish, and I think I haven't really finished it yet even I have read it couple times now both in Thai and English. Later I happened to hear khun Sujin on radio b/c my aunt listened to that station and I felt "this stuff is good". I read couple of her books as well as checked the origin from tipitaka. I am mainly now studying from Tipitaka CDrom, Mahidol Univ. version and read some suttas in English from accesstoinsight website and some other. My main mean of learning is coming from my daily life. As a doctor I saw a lot of interesting human behavior. I always ask myself what exactly I see or why this happens. When I saw a stroke patient who cannot walk or talk, I always wonder why. I wonder how man communicate. When I suffer, I ask why. To me phenomenon has conditions and causes as factors. When I am happy, I ask why as well. I still enjoy earthly pleasure. I play tennis like a crazy. <> I don't take that as an offensive question. You are not rude at all. Thanks for asking. As I mentioned in my mail to khun Amara earlier : "I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and dhamma, I mean samma dhitti". I am kind of skeptical and reluctant to accept any doctrines before thinking carefully about it. I totally agree with you though that reality is here and now but it's hard for me who cling to the idea that this is the world or this is self. Well, that's lot of information about myself. I feel a little weird sharing my personal information on the net. Num 3091 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:21am Subject: Nirodha I am interested in this term: Nirodha does anyone have any information on the background of the term I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the limitations of English. I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like embankment. I would be interested in your comments. antony 3092 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) --- bruce wrote: > you're a really good teacher > robert thanks for the right words > > bruce ...ain't it the truth, Bruce... mike 3093 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Sadhu, Robert and Bruce. mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > --- bruce wrote: > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can > take a left > > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > > > but we choose one or the other according to > conditions. > > Right. > > > > the choosing itself is determined by > conditions.... > > > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > > the relationships are rather a bit more > complicated) > > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > > determined by previous conditions, > > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > Right! > > > > and not just thinking about this > > but really seeing and knowing it > > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > > is what breaks the chain... > > > Right! > > Just while the light bulbs are still illuminating > Nara here is a > deep section from the commentaries . > Sammanaphala sutta (trans. as discourse on fruits of > recluseship > by Bodhi) > One phrase from the sutta says "in looking ahead > and looking > aside he acts with clear comprehension". {Note this > is just a > slight twist of the head or movement of the eyes} > The commentary(p120): "thus looking ahead and > looking aside are > discerned in the assemblage of these five > aggregates. Therein, > who is it that looks ahead or looks aside?" > The tika: The meaning is there is no one who looks > ahead, no one > who looks aside. > The commentary: So, too the eye is the eye base; > form is the > form base;seeing is the mind base;the associated > phenomena such > as feeling etc. are the mind-object base. thus > looking ahead and > looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of > these four > sense bases." > Next the commentary lists some of the conditions > (paccaya > explained in great detail in the Patthana- 7th book > of the > Abhidhamma) > "So, too the eye is a support condition for seeing; > forms are an > object condition; adverting is a proximity, > contiguity, decisive > support, absence, and disapearance condition; light > is a > decisive support condition; feeling, etc. are > conascence > conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are > discerned > in the assemblage of these conditions" end quote. > > We usually have no problem in understanding that > such things as > heartbeat and blood pumping around the body are > conditioned > phenomena, not under control. (but even these we > still cling to > as self) However, even most buddhists - who have > heard about > anatta-don't realise that activities involving > 'choice' are > still not under anyones control. > I go to get a glass of water. Surely that is in my > control? In > a conventional sense, in the world of concepts, yes > it is. But > we don't see the subtle interplay of conditions - > past and > present; so complex and hidden by avijja. The > feeling of thirst > arose because of different conditions. The thought > to get water > - again conditioned. And so it goes on and on. That > is life in > any plane. What is sad is that for so long we have > been deluded > into believing that it is all "me"- avijja has run > among > concepts. > With the Dhamma we learn about a new world, the real > world, of > namas and rupas. > Robert > 3094 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:29am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? --- wrote: > Hi all, > > I agree with Jina that we probably cannot know who exactly gave the discourse > on Diamond sutra. I just finished reading the English version of the sutras > last night. My impression is it's very similar to a lot of Pali suttas that I > have read. Mainly talking about nonself and disintegrated the thing that we > hold as person, self or even the Buddha. Dear Num, Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands things, and what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course. First I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the Pali version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not resemble the Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the foundation. My provisory thoughts on the text as translated (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link you gave me, , is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that I am studying. For example when it says towards the beginning, 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been liberated,' Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all the people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different levels of wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself. And further on it says: "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?" The Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata's teaching is not self-existent nor is it non-self-existent. Why? Because the noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the unconditioned." This would seem to negate all the meticulous distinctions made throughout the Tipitaka and Commentaries of the ABSOLUTE TRUTHS OR REALITIES THAT TRULY EXIST arising and falling away by conditions except for nibbana, (the paramattha dhamma: the eye, ear, nose tongue, body sense and mind and their objects; classified as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana), and the CONVENTIONAL TRUTHS, panatti, in this case the teaching about the truth, therefore conventional truth that explains the truth that really exists. It is the concepts and the selves that are empty and nothingness, to say that there are no realities or truths at all does not fit in with the rest of the teaching, which say absolute realities are real and arise and fall away according to conditions, therefore not the self. These truths can be proven, we do see at this moment, something is there that is intelligence experiencing visible objects through the eyes and through the mind, which also really exists, the mind is not emptiness. But we all take it for the self, not as different realities that arise and fall away under no one's control when in fact the self is not there. Still one needs to distinguish what is really there and what really does not exist. If all were the same there would be no need to study the dhamma at all, indeed there would be no dhamma to study! And although we have never experienced nibbana at any level of wisdom, the Buddha taught that it is one of the four paramatthadhamma, and really exists, which is why when panna has nibbana as arammana kilesa can be eradicated. All the intricacies of realities are carefully explained in the Tipitaka that is not found in this sutta to my mind. But then I am very dense at reading between the lines, what is clearly stated is already complicated enough for me. So it is probably my own stupidity, but I find these kinds of texts less than helpful for my own understanding. The Buddha taught us to check all teachings that are said to be his against the body of his teachings before concluding that they were his, and I think it is detrimental to our studies if we do not do that. In the Tipitaka so far I have never found any discrepancies but then I have not read all of it, in fact I have read very little compared to others on this list. The dhamma is not simple, otherwise one would not need to accumulate so much panna to become a Buddha. To become a arahanta ekatagga there needed to be accumulations of hundreds of thousands of kappa, to become a Pacceka Buddha, two asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa and to be a Sammasam Buddha, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa. Oversimplification of the dhamma could lead to much misunderstanding, I think. Teachings about realities and non realities form the heart of Buddhism, to say that nothing is real seems to be beneath the Buddha to me. But as I said, I have not seen the Pali version, and this is just off the cuff at the moment, my apologies to serious students of the sutta. I believe life is short, I have time to study seriously only the Tipitaka mainly, and just read through other texts like I read everything else. Of course others are welcome to analyze any writings as much as they please, in fact I rather enjoy reading even the news, novels, literary analysis, food critics and even articles on video games. It doesn't change my preferences in the texts I choose to study analytically and conscientiously in any way. But this is my personal accumulations, so to each his own study (or his nothing to study!)! Amara 3095 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:40am Subject: Re: Nirodha > does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the > limitations of English. > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > embankment. Dear Antony, I am no Pali expert, as most of the list know, but in my opinion Nirodha as in nirodha samapati does mean cessation, in this case temporary cessation of the arising of the citta for a certain period of time. It seems logical that parinibbana being the ultimate ceasing of endless eternities of the citta arising in ceaseless succession that for the anagami or the arahanta with a high enough jhana who lives for others to temporarily have nirodha samapati when they have nothing to do. I think that they have certain understandings concerning the case when there is anything they have to do they should be able to perform them normally right away as well. Looking forward to what our experts say, Amara 3096 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi Jinawamsa, If I remember correctly the name of the monk is 'Vakkali' later Vakkali becomes an arahant. This story shows the different ways that people get into the 'path' and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her apparent actions. regards. 3097 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi khun Amara, The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little different from the plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site that I gave you, but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted by Charles Patton. I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so you can see some differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long e-mail, pardon me. Bear with me, OK. Your paste <<'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been liberated,'>> From the pdf.version ((( 3. The Buddha addressed Subhåti, saying, "Bodhisattva-mahàsattvas should thus subdue their minds: 'Where there is every single sort of sentient being; whether egg-born,womb-born, water-born, or born of transformation; whether having form or formless; whether having thought or no thought; whether neither having thought nor no thought; I will cause all to enter the non-residual Nirvàõa, liberating them. Thus liberating the measureless, countless, and boundless sentient beings, in reality there are no sentient beings attaining that liberation.' And why? Subhåti, if a bodhisattva has the image of a self, the image of a person, the image of beings, or the image of a soul; then he is not a bodhisattva. ))) Your paste << "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?" The Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata's teaching is not self-existent nor is it non-self-existent. Why? Because the noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the unconditioned.">> pdf version ((( 7. "Subhåti, what do you think? The Tathàgata has attained the supremely unexcelled bodhi, no? The Tathàgata has a teaching of the Dharma, no?"Subhåti replied, "As I have understood the meaning of the Buddha's discourse, there is no certain Dharma called 'the supremely unexcelled bodhi'. Also, there is no certain Dharma that the Tathàgata can expound. And why? The Dharmas expounded by the Tathàgata are intangible and inexpressible. They are neither Dharmas nor non-Dharmas. And why is that? All of the Sages make discriminations from the unconditioned Dharma."))) Let me put in Vacchagotta sutta from Majjhima Nikaya 72. I got this from accesstoinsight site. (((I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat down to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "How is it, Master Gotama, does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is eternal: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is not eternal: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is finite: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is infinite: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul & the body are the same: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul is one thing and the body another: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the view 'the cosmos is eternal...'...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless,' he says '...no...' in each case. Seeing what drawback, then, is Master Gotama thus entirely dissociated from each of these ten positions?" "Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding. "The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'... "...'the cosmos is finite'... "...'the cosmos is infinite'... "...'the soul & the body are the same'... "...'the soul is one thing and the body another'... "...'after death a Tathagata exists'... "...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'... "...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... "...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'...does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding." "Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are mental fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata -- with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & tendencies to conceits -- is, through lack of sustenance/clinging, released." "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?" "'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." "In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear." "'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." "...both does & does not reappear." "...doesn't apply." "...neither does nor does not reappear." "...doesn't apply." "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears...does not reappear...both does & does not reappear...neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured." "Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. How do you construe this, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'" "If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished -- from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other -- is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)." "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply. "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or town: From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark would wear away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion -- divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood -- it would stand as pure heartwood. In the same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood and stand as pure heartwood. "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what had been overturned, were to reveal what was hidden, were to show the way to one who was lost, or were to hold up a lamp in the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way Master Gotama has -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." ))) Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, just to different person, at different time and space. This is just my personal opinion. Let me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a destiny. I need a boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. I am totally agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use conscience in studying dhamma. Appreciate your input. Anumodhana. (Hope I do not flood all the space in e-group.) Num 3098 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 1:45pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little different from the > plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site that I gave you, > but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted by Charles Patton. > I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so you can see some > differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long e-mail, pardon me. > Bear with me, OK. > > Your paste > <<'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from eggs, > from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do > not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or > whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or that they do > not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana > so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, > infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think > that a single being has been liberated,'>> > > From the pdf.version > ((( > 3. > The Buddha addressed Subhåti, saying, "Bodhisattva-mahàsattvas should thus > subdue their minds: 'Where there is every single sort of sentient being; > whether egg-born,womb-born, water-born, or born of transformation; whether > having form or formless; whether having thought or no thought; whether > neither having thought nor no thought; I will cause all to enter the > non-residual Nirvàõa, liberating them. Thus liberating the measureless, > countless, and boundless sentient beings, in reality there are no sentient > beings attaining that liberation.' And why? Subhåti, if a bodhisattva has the > image of a self, the image of a person, the image of beings, or the image of > a soul; then he is not a bodhisattva. ))) > > Your paste > << "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, > most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?" The > Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's > teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the > highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently > existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the > Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, > independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata's > teaching is not self-existent nor is it non-self-existent. Why? Because the > noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the > unconditioned.">> > > pdf version > ((( > 7. > "Subhåti, what do you think? The Tathàgata has attained the supremely > unexcelled bodhi, no? The Tathàgata has a teaching of the Dharma, no?"Subhåti > replied, "As I have understood the meaning of the Buddha's discourse, there > is no certain Dharma called 'the supremely unexcelled bodhi'. Also, there is > no certain Dharma that the Tathàgata can expound. And why? The Dharmas > expounded by the Tathàgata are intangible and inexpressible. They are neither > Dharmas nor non-Dharmas. And why is that? All of the Sages make > discriminations from the unconditioned Dharma."))) I do not see that much difference in the version, whereas there is definite difference in the following: > Let me put in Vacchagotta sutta from Majjhima Nikaya 72. I got this from > accesstoinsight site. > > (((I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, > at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to > the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. > After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat down to one > side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "How is it, Master > Gotama, does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is eternal: only this > is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is not eternal: only this > is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is finite: only this is > true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is infinite: only this is > true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul & the body are the same: > only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul is one thing and the body > another: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only > this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not > exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists > & does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither > exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is > worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the view > 'the cosmos is eternal...'...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does > not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless,' he says > '...no...' in each case. Seeing what drawback, then, is Master Gotama thus > entirely dissociated from each of these ten positions?" > > "Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a > wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of > views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it > does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct > knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding. > > "The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'... > > "...'the cosmos is finite'... > > "...'the cosmos is infinite'... > > "...'the soul & the body are the same'... > > "...'the soul is one thing and the body another'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata exists'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'...does not > lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, > full awakening, Unbinding." > > "Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" > > "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. ********* This is the BIG DIFFERENCE to me, as Kom mentioned recently, the Buddha KNOWS, he does not FORM OPINIONS OF SPECULATE. What he teaches is the absolute truth, and not thories and calculations like for others, for example when the Bible says the world is flat and the center of the universe. What > a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its > disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such > is perception...such are mental fabrications...such is consciousness, such > its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata -- > with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all > construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & tendencies to > conceits -- is, through lack of sustenance/clinging, released." > > "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he > reappear?" > > "'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." > > "In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear." > > "'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." > > "...both does & does not reappear." > > "...doesn't apply." > > "...neither does nor does not reappear." > > "...doesn't apply." > > "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk > reappears...does not reappear...both does & does not reappear...neither does > nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this > point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of > clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured." > > "Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, > is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond > the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those > with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other > teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some > questions to you. Answer as you see fit. How do you construe this, Vaccha: If > a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is > burning in front of me'?" > > "...yes..." > > "And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of > you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" > > "...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on > grass & timber as its sustenance.'" > > "If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, > 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?" > > "...yes..." > > "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front > of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or > south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" > > "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a > sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished -- from having consumed > that sustenance and not being offered any other -- is classified simply as > 'out' (unbound)." ***************** You see here that he doesn't say the fire did not exist, but it had gone out. > "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata > would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, > like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not > destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, > the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' > doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't > apply. > > "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... > > "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: > That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm > tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future > arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the > Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' > doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't > apply." > > When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master > Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or > town: From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark > would wear away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion -- > divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood -- it would stand as pure > heartwood. In the same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, > leaves, bark, & sapwood and stand as pure heartwood. > > "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright > what had been overturned, were to reveal what was hidden, were to show the > way to one who was lost, or were to hold up a lamp in the dark so that those > with eyes could see forms, in the same way Master Gotama has -- through many > lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for > refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember > me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, > for life." ))) > > > > Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, just to different > person, at different time and space. This is just my personal opinion. Let > me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a destiny. I need a > boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. I am totally > agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use conscience in studying > dhamma. You see we are in complete oposition opinion wise, but thanks for making me think about this very carefully, normally I have a tendency to read and forget, period! Amara 3099 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Gayan, Jina & friends, --- wrote: > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > 'Vakkali' > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > This story shows the different ways that people get > into the 'path' > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > apparent actions. > > regards. > You remember very correctly and have made it easy for me to find the following in Dict of PPN: "VIKKALI THERA - He belonged to a brahmin family of Savatthi and became proficient in the three Vedas. After he once saw the Buddha he could never tire of looking at him, and followed him about. In order to be closer to him he became a monk, and spent all his time, apart from meals and bathing, in contemplating the Buddha's person. One day the Buddha said to him, 'The sight of my foul body is useless; he who sees the Dhamma, he it is that seeth me' (yo kho dhammam passati so mam passati; yo mam passati so dhammam passati).(Itv.sec.92) But even then Vakkali would not leave the Buddha till, on the last day of the rains, the Buddha commanded him to depart. Greatly grieved, Vakkali sought the precipices of Gijjhakuta. The Buddha, aware of this, appeared before him and uttered a stanza; then stretching out his hand, he said: 'Come, monk.' Filled with joy, Vakkali rose in the air pondering on the Buddha's words and realized arahatship.(AA.i.140f) According to the Theragatha Commentary, (ThagA.i.420) when Vakkali was dismissed by the Buddha he lived in Gijjhakuta, practising meditation, but could not attain insight because of his emotional nature (saddha). The Buddha then gave him a special exercise, but neither could he achieve this, and, from lack of food, he suffered from cramp. The Buddha visited him and uttered a verse to encourage him. Vakkali spoke four verses (Thag,vss.350-4)* in reply, and, conjuring up insight, won arahatship. later, in the assembly of the monks, the Buddha declared him foremost among those of implicit faith (saddhadhimuttanam)." Actually there's quite a bit more detail but I think it's rather neat ending with the foremost attribute to link up to our earlier posts! * Just one of these verses: 'Developing the applications of mindfulness, the faculties, and the powers, and developing the constituents of enlightenment, I shall dwell in the growve.' Sarah p.s. Jina, apologies for the lazy Pali spelling in haste! 3100 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 4:21pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > -----Original Message----- > > I'm looking at Puggalapannatti (Designation of > Human > > Types) (PTS, p.38 Division by Two). > > Do you by any chance have the Nikaya (and number) > where this > sutta resides? ---------------------------------------------------- Sorry, this was a lazy ref. It's chapter 2, verse 20. many thanks for yr interesting comments too and for Num's and Jina's contributions on the Pali side. > > Although I haven't seen this sutta or the > commentaries > myself, the words pubbakari and katannuakatavedi are > conveniently common in the Thai language. Pubbakari > often > refers to your parents or teachers, and the persons > having > katannukatavedi are often children or pupils. I > feel > indebted to my parents and my teachers, and > therefore I can > see how the commentaries give such a comment. > However, > coming from the point of Pubbakari thinking that > debts > should be paid to him is harder. I often see my > parents and > teachers give without obvious reasons except for the > benefits of me: I can't see how they are getting any > (immediate) thing out of it, or that they are > expecting that > they will get any (non-immediate) thing out of it. > > Surely, there are examples of persons being > pubbakari or > having katannuakatavedi without feeling that they > are due, > or that they are indebted, because that implies > attachment > to self. For example, Buddha is Pubbakari like no > other > Pubbakari. I certainly don't understand how he > could have > thought he was either the giver or the person whose > debt > would become due. Sariputta always showed respect > to > Assachi out of his katannuakatavedi wherever he was. > However, I don't understand how he could have > thought of > himself as the receiver, nor the person who is > indebted. > > kom > 3101 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 4:51pm Subject: conditioned decisions Dear Bruce, Yes, yes, yes...You've got it! You'll certainly remember these couple of months as the ones you learnt to live in the world of no choice and no smoke!! You won't believe how much easier life becomes....those light bulbs will be shining right, left and centre! --- bruce wrote: > ok -- lemme get this straight in as few words as > possible. > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take > a left > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > but we choose one or the other according to > conditions. > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > determined by previous conditions, > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > and not just thinking about this > but really seeing and knowing it > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > is what breaks the chain... > > **bing!! light bulbs and piti!!!** Dear Friends, This correspondence has reminded me of a helpful letter from Jonothan to Ann in January, 1976. She shared it with me at the time. Jon & Ann, I hope you don't mind it being repeated here without notice! You may be a little surprised! '......I got the impression you may be worried about making the right decision, or doing the right thing. In fact, of course, there is no 'right' decision or thing to do, nor in any absolute sense is there a 'better' decision or thing to do. Decisions are made according to our accumulations. We can, however, appreciate the importance of having kusala citta at any moment and of developing sati at any moment. Worry is akusala, so is fear, regret and all shades of uncertainty and unease. No doubt you have in mind that you would like to be sure that what you do will be the best for your study and practice of Dhamma (as well as suiting/satisfying other less noble purposes). But how do you know what circumstances may eventuate? How can you make that situation happen? We cannot foresee the long-term course of events that our past kamma will condition as result. In fact we cannot even know the more immediate plans that our kamma has for us. In ignorance we wonder about what will be the result if...? Not realizing that next month's or next year's vipaka is the result of action already performed, not the result of today's decisions. We forget the importance of developing understanding of the realities of the present moment. How valuable it is to have just a moment of sati, to see just for a momet a little more clearly one of the realities of this moment. Do you remember the sutta when the Buddha talks about a fingersnap o awareness? We spend a lot of time wondering about what we should be doing, or thinking about what we would like to do, or worrying about what we are not doing, but we have no understanding of what is actually happening at the present moment....seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and a lot of mind-door activity. The decisions we make are just another moment of thinking, conditioned by our accumulations to do many other things too. Then we may act, but this is quite another moment, with a different moment of intention, and different realities appearing.' (end quote) Best wishes, Sarah 3102 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 5:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Thank you very much for sharing so much with us all. it's interesting and helpful (and honest) and I may refer back, but I've just used up my time on the last 2 posts for now. Please think of us as a group of friends and then it won't feel so wierd! That goes for anyone else who is new here as well. > I am kind of skeptical and > reluctant to accept any > doctrines before thinking carefully about it. I > totally agree with you > though that reality is here and now but it's hard > for me who cling to the > idea that this is the world or this is self. > Pls be as skeptical and questioning as you like and find helpful. You are exactly right when you say it's hard when there's clinging to the idea of self. It's the same for us all. Let's continue to try and help each other. Sarah p.s. I was trained as a psychologist and also shared/share some of your areas of interest....hence the questions perhaps! 3103 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, --- wrote: > > > I have to decline your statement this time. I am considered > myself as a > beginner. Dhamma is very deep and bottomless to me. I felt > like, as someone > mentioned in the mail earlier, I am only a frog happened to > hear the Buddha > discourse. And at times all I can say is "this stuff is > good". Very modest- good to see. The Dhamma is so deep if we can glimpse even a little we should be very happy I think. > > > . I always ask myself what exactly > I see or why > this happens. When I saw a stroke patient who cannot walk or > talk, I always > wonder why. I wonder how man communicate. When I suffer, I > ask why. To me > phenomenon has conditions and causes as factors. When I am > happy, I ask why > as well. Yes it is all by conditions. I still enjoy earthly pleasure. I play tennis like > a crazy. You might appreciate a thread we had some months back about going to karaoke. (you could find it by the search engine in the archives ) Some laypeople live very simple lives, others still enjoy the five strands of sense pleasure. Both can develop wisdom. (I am one of the latter types). Thanks for the personal details. This group is going from strength to strength; looking forward to all your comments. Robert p.s. I'm an English teacher in Japan.b > > 3104 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Thanks, Gayan, This is at SN22.87--I couldn't find it in English on the web. I'm not sure that this is the same guy who followed the Buddha around because he liked looking at him. Regards, Sir, mike --- wrote: > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > 'Vakkali' > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > This story shows the different ways that people get > into the 'path' > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > apparent actions. > > regards. > > > 3105 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Sarah, Gayan and Jina, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Gayan, Jina & friends, > > --- wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > > 'Vakkali' > > > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > > This story shows the different ways that people > get > > into the 'path' > > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > > apparent actions. > > > > regards. > > > You remember very correctly and have made it easy > for > me to find the following in Dict of PPN: > > "VIKKALI THERA - He belonged to a brahmin family of > Savatthi and became proficient in the three Vedas. > After he once saw the Buddha he could never tire of > looking at him, and followed him about. In order to > be closer to him he became a monk, and spent all his > time, apart from meals and bathing, in contemplating > the Buddha's person. One day the Buddha said to > him, > 'The sight of my foul body is useless; he who sees > the Dhamma, he it is that seeth me' (yo kho dhammam > passati so mam passati; yo mam passati so dhammam > passati).(Itv.sec.92) But even then Vakkali would > not > leave the Buddha till, on the last day of the rains, > the Buddha commanded him to depart. Greatly > grieved, > Vakkali sought the precipices of Gijjhakuta. The > Buddha, aware of this, appeared before him and > uttered > a stanza; then stretching out his hand, he said: > 'Come, monk.' Filled with joy, Vakkali rose in the > air pondering on the Buddha's words and realized > arahatship.(AA.i.140f) This obviously IS the same guy, contrary to my earlier post. There are some interesting differences in the ending above from that at SN22.87 (he 'used the knife'). mike > According to the Theragatha Commentary, > (ThagA.i.420) > when Vakkali was dismissed by the Buddha he lived in > Gijjhakuta, practising meditation, but could not > attain insight because of his emotional nature > (saddha). The Buddha then gave him a special > exercise, > but neither could he achieve this, and, from lack of > food, he suffered from cramp. The Buddha visited > him > and uttered a verse to encourage him. Vakkali spoke > four verses (Thag,vss.350-4)* in reply, and, > conjuring > up insight, won arahatship. later, in the assembly > of > the monks, the Buddha declared him foremost among > those of implicit faith (saddhadhimuttanam)." > > Actually there's quite a bit more detail but I think > it's rather neat ending with the foremost attribute > to > link up to our earlier posts! > > * Just one of these verses: > 'Developing the applications of mindfulness, the > faculties, and the powers, and developing the > constituents of enlightenment, I shall dwell in the > growve.' > > Sarah > > p.s. Jina, apologies for the lazy Pali spelling in > haste! > > > > 3106 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Mike, I think the Vakkali who cut his own throat was a different one from the one who loved the Buddha so much. Both attained arahantship. I think the PTS translators of some texts also confuse the two. The one who killed himself also became arahant. He went through all the stages of vipassana and the different levels of enlightenment after he cut but before he died. If I am not completely confused I think the Buddha loving one was also bent on suicide (by jumping off vuluture peak)- but when he saw the Buddhas image became arahant. He didn't complete the suicide. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Gayan and Jina, > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > Dear Gayan, Jina & friends, > > > > --- wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > > > > > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > > > 'Vakkali' > > > > > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > > > This story shows the different ways that people > > get > > > into the 'path' > > > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > > > apparent actions. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > You remember very correctly and have made it easy > > for > > me to find the following in Dict of PPN: > > > > "VIKKALI THERA - He belonged to a brahmin family of > > Savatthi and became proficient in the three Vedas. > > After he once saw the Buddha he could never tire of > > looking at him, and followed him about. In order to > > be closer to him he became a monk, and spent all his > > time, apart from meals and bathing, in contemplating > > the Buddha's person. One day the Buddha said to > > him, > > 'The sight of my foul body is useless; he who sees > > the Dhamma, he it is that seeth me' (yo kho dhammam > > passati so mam passati; yo mam passati so dhammam > > passati).(Itv.sec.92) But even then Vakkali would > > not > > leave the Buddha till, on the last day of the rains, > > the Buddha commanded him to depart. Greatly > > grieved, > > Vakkali sought the precipices of Gijjhakuta. The > > Buddha, aware of this, appeared before him and > > uttered > > a stanza; then stretching out his hand, he said: > > 'Come, monk.' Filled with joy, Vakkali rose in the > > air pondering on the Buddha's words and realized > > arahatship.(AA.i.140f) > 3107 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Antony, Welcome to the group. Amara mentioned nirodha-samapatti. I might be mistaken but I think there are other types of nirodho too. One (just from memory-unreliable) could be tadanga-nirodha which means substituition of opposite or temporary cessation. This occurs at the moments when the stream of akusala is briefly interrupted such as moments of satipatthana. I figure Jim will know a good deal about this. A very common word and one we should understand. Robert --- wrote: > I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I > don't > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other > dimensions to > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated > into the > limitations of English. > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and > Rodha, Ni > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > embankment. > > I would be interested in your comments. > > antony > > 3108 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Just a little more. There was also a channa who killed himself by knife and attained arahantship before death. Not the same channa who was once prince siddhattas chariot driver. That is if I've got any of this right- I'm not good with names. Robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > I think the Vakkali who cut his own throat was a different one > from the one who loved the Buddha so much. Both attained > arahantship. I think the PTS translators of some texts also > confuse the two. The one who killed himself also became > arahant. > He went through all the stages of vipassana and the different > levels of enlightenment after he cut but before he died. > > If I am not completely confused I think the Buddha loving one > was also bent on suicide (by jumping off vuluture peak)- but > when he saw the Buddhas image became arahant. He didn't > complete > the suicide. > Robert > --- 3109 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Nirodha is extinction. Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which are reached via jhana. The extinction of feeling and perception is Nirodha-samaapatti. There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit detail concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha (suffering). Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Antony, Welcome to the group. Amara mentioned nirodha-samapatti. I might be mistaken but I think there are other types of nirodho too. One (just from memory-unreliable) could be tadanga-nirodha which means substituition of opposite or temporary cessation. This occurs at the moments when the stream of akusala is briefly interrupted such as moments of satipatthana. I figure Jim will know a good deal about this. A very common word and one we should understand. Robert --- wrote: > I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I > don't > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other > dimensions to > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated > into the > limitations of English. > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and > Rodha, Ni > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > embankment. > > I would be interested in your comments. > > antony > > 3110 From: bruce Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditioned decisions no choice and no smoke: there is no real choosing not to smoke, or rather, there is no chooser so it's not me that's doing this seeming choosing to not smoke: LOL! thanks sarah! At 16:51 2001/01/31 +0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > Yes, yes, yes...You've got it! > > You'll certainly remember these couple of months as > the ones you learnt to live in the world of no choice > and no smoke!! You won't believe how much easier life > becomes....those light bulbs will be shining right, > left and centre! > > --- bruce wrote: > > > ok -- lemme get this straight in as few words as > > possible. > > > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take > > a left > > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > > > but we choose one or the other according to > > conditions. > > > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > > > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > > determined by previous conditions, > > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > > > and not just thinking about this > > but really seeing and knowing it > > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > > is what breaks the chain... > > > > **bing!! light bulbs and piti!!!** > > > Dear Friends, > > This correspondence has reminded me of a helpful > letter from Jonothan to Ann in January, 1976. She > shared it with me at the time. Jon & Ann, I hope you > don't mind it being repeated here without notice! You > may be a little surprised! > > '......I got the impression you may be worried about > making the right decision, or doing the right thing. > In fact, of course, there is no 'right' decision or > thing to do, nor in any absolute sense is there a > 'better' decision or thing to do. Decisions are made > according to our accumulations. We can, however, > appreciate the importance of having kusala citta at > any moment and of developing sati at any moment. > Worry is akusala, so is fear, regret and all shades of > uncertainty and unease. > > No doubt you have in mind that you would like to be > sure that what you do will be the best for your study > and practice of Dhamma (as well as suiting/satisfying > other less noble purposes). But how do you know what > circumstances may eventuate? How can you make that > situation happen? We cannot foresee the long-term > course of events that our past kamma will condition as > result. > > In fact we cannot even know the more immediate plans > that our kamma has for us. In ignorance we wonder > about what will be the result if...? Not realizing > that next month's or next year's vipaka is the result > of action already performed, not the result of today's > decisions. We forget the importance of developing > understanding of the realities of the present moment. > How valuable it is to have just a moment of sati, to > see just for a momet a little more clearly one of the > realities of this moment. > > Do you remember the sutta when the Buddha talks about > a fingersnap o awareness? We spend a lot of time > wondering about what we should be doing, or thinking > about what we would like to do, or worrying about what > we are not doing, but we have no understanding of what > is actually happening at the present moment....seeing, > hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and a lot of > mind-door activity. > > The decisions we make are just another moment of > thinking, conditioned by our accumulations to do many > other things too. Then we may act, but this is quite > another moment, with a different moment of intention, > and different realities appearing.' (end quote) > > Best wishes, > Sarah > 3111 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Venerable, It helps alright! You are our first Theravada Bhikkhu so it is an auspicious occasion. I am honoured to be the first to welcome you. Kind regards Robert --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Nirodha is extinction. > > Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which > are reached via > jhana. > > The extinction of feeling and perception is > Nirodha-samaapatti. > > There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. > > There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as > san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. > > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very > explicit detail > concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. > > Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha > (suffering). > Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. > > Hope this helps. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha > > > Dear Antony, > Welcome to the group. Amara mentioned nirodha-samapatti. I > might > be mistaken but I think there are other types of nirodho too. > One (just from memory-unreliable) could be tadanga-nirodha > which > means substituition of opposite or temporary cessation. This > occurs at the moments when the stream of akusala is briefly > interrupted such as moments of satipatthana. I figure Jim will > know a good deal about this. A very common word and one we > should understand. > Robert > --- wrote: > > I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > > > does anyone have any information on the background of the > term > > > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I > > don't > > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other > > dimensions to > > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated > > into the > > limitations of English. > > > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and > > Rodha, Ni > > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something > like > > embankment. > > > > I would be interested in your comments. > > > > antony > > 3112 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi, Num - Thanks so much for this. As I understand it, the Diamond Sutra is one of the earliest of the "wisdom" sutras of Mahayana, and is, indeed, not far from the root of the Buddhist tree. I personally find that such sutras can at least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. David Kalupahana, a respected Buddhist scholar and Theravadin, has expressed his admiration of such sutras. BTW, this is my first post to this group, though I've been a member for a while. For the most part, I will content myself with only reading the erudite posts on the list, inasmuch as I am very far from being the Buddhist scholar that most of the posters are. Among other things, I consider membership on this list as constituting a marvelous opportunity for a "painless", gradual acquaintance with abhidhammic terminology and concepts. Oh, BTW, the signature line at the very bottom of this post of mine is (a poetic paraphrase of) a part of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/31/01 12:29:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Hi khun Amara, > > The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little different from > the > plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site that I gave > you, > but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted by Charles > Patton. > I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so you can see > some > differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long e-mail, pardon me. > Bear with me, OK. > > > Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, just to > different > person, at different time and space. This is just my personal opinion. > Let > me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a destiny. I need a > boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. I am totally > agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use conscience in > studying > dhamma. > > Appreciate your input. > Anumodhana. > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3113 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:19pm Subject: Off for 3 weeks Hi all, Just let you guys know that I will be off for 3 weeks for my vacation in Central America. I'll try to keep up if I have an access to the net. Thanks for all the input and feedback. I've learned a lot from this group-discussion. Appreciated Num 3114 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 1:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Thank you, Robert. No big deal! Don't make any fuss on my behalf! ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Venerable, It helps alright! You are our first Theravada Bhikkhu so it is an auspicious occasion. I am honoured to be the first to welcome you. Kind regards Robert --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Nirodha is extinction. > > Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which > are reached via > jhana. > > The extinction of feeling and perception is > Nirodha-samaapatti. > > There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. > > There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as > san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. > > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very > explicit detail > concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. > > Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha > (suffering). > Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. > > Hope this helps. > 3115 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 0:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah and Kom, Kom: >> Do you by any chance have the Nikaya (and number) >> where this >> sutta resides? >---------------------------------------------------- Sarah: >Sorry, this was a lazy ref. It's chapter 2, verse 20. > The original sutta is located at AN 2.11.2. (ie. Anguttara Nikaya, nipata 2, vagga 11, sutta 2) The Puggalapa~n~natti is only quoting it. Jim 3116 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Namaskara Venerable, I am glad to see your input. May I express my greeting. Hope we will learn from you more. Aprreciated Num 3117 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:58pm Subject: Re: Nirodha Venerable sir, Welcome to the discussions and thank you for the explanations. I think sometimes nirodha is used to mean nibbana isn't it? As Robert said, it is commonly used. And as he also said, Jim must have more to add, which I look forward to reading also, Amara > Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which are reached via > jhana. > > The extinction of feeling and perception is Nirodha-samaapatti. > > There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. > > There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as > san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. > > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit detail > concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. > > Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha (suffering). > Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. > > Hope this helps. > > > 3118 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 2:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Just glad to help and share... Metta to you and all the Friends of the Dhamma here, Num! Maha Metta, Dhammapiyo Bhante ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Namaskara Venerable, I am glad to see your input. May I express my greeting. Hope we will learn from you more. Aprreciated Num 3119 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 3:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi Howard, Good to see you here. Welcome to a discussion. > > < of the earliest of the "wisdom" sutras of Mahayana, and is, indeed, not far > from the root of the Buddhist tree. I personally find that such sutras can > at > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. David > Kalupahana, > a respected Buddhist scholar and Theravadin, has expressed his admiration > of > such sutras.>> This is my personal opinion, OK. Theravada or Mahayana is just a term or you can call pannatti. Dhamma is dhamma, no matter what the name we call does not change it. Dhamma in itself is the thing the Buddha said that he showed and opened to us and left it as our teacher or guidance. As I said earlier for me, tipitaka is a very important map but not the destination. Right understanding, sammadhiti or panna is the thing that will lead us to the right path, sammamakka. I have limited knowledge about Mahayana and I don't think I can give a comment on the difference between the two. Idea, different view and schism are everywhere even in Theravada. > < for a while. For the most part, I will content myself with only reading the > erudite posts on the list, inasmuch as I am very far from being the > Buddhist > scholar that most of the posters are. Among other things, I consider > membership on this list as constituting a marvelous opportunity for a > "painless", gradual acquaintance with abhidhammic terminology and concepts.> > > Only person who has nothing more to learn is an arahat. To me good friend (kalayanamitra) as well as sammadhiti is very essential for the right path. So I hope that we can help each other. I learn from you as well. Don't be a hidden treasure. BTW, let me say that at time, no pain, no gain. Don't be afraid of the pain. Well, know yourself and I hope you find your own pace. > < (a poetic paraphrase of) a part of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra. /Thus is how > ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, > a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a > dream./ >> Thanks for an uplifting ending. Hope seeing you again. Num 3120 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Antony, I take it that your query on the term 'nirodha' has something to do with an interest in its etymology especially when I see that you divide the word up into NI + RODHA. I'm not too familiar with the word myself so I have to search about for some commentarial explanation. I have found a good starting point for exploring this word with some useful information provided in the Visuddhimagga (XVI.18) in reference to the term as used in the third noble truth: dukkha-nirodha. In this passage we learn that NI has the sense of 'absence' (abhaava). In a traditional grammar like the Saddaniiti, there is a section on the prefixes (upasagga-s) that gives the various senses of each prefix. For NI we find that 'abhaava' is listed as one of the 14 meanings given there. RODH is derived from the verbal root RUDH. The Dhaatumaala (Garland of Roots -- one of the three major sections of the Saddaniiti) gives its meaning as: 'aavara.na' which does not exactly have a clear meaning for me. The PED gives the meaning of aavara.na as: hindrance, obstruction which might do for now. RUDH becomes RODH by way of the addition of the primary affix 'a' (gha~n) which changes the root vowel U into O through strengthening (gu.na). RUDH + A > RODHA. For the word RODHA the PED gives: obstruction, stopping. In the next entry for the same word there is given: bank, dam -- which one can see is connected to the first entry in meaning and could very well have been included in the first entry. The passage at Vism XVI.18 defines RODHA as 'caaraka'. ~Naa.namoli translates RODHA as 'constraint' and 'caaraka' as 'prison'. In checking with Apte's Sanskrit Dictionary, "bondage, fetter" could also be considered for 'caaraka'. I'm not sure what word would best fit with 'absence of' and I'm only thinking of something like 'absence of obstruction' for now. Ths same passage also gives an alternative meaning for 'nirodha' as 'anuppaada' -- non-arising. So now there is more to go on for further study. I hope you find these notes useful in your worthwhile investigation of the term 'nirodha'. Best wishes, Jim A. -----Original Message----- From: <> Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 8:46 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha >I am interested in this term: Nirodha > >does anyone have any information on the background of the term > >I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't >disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to >the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the >limitations of English. > >I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni >meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like >embankment. > >I would be interested in your comments. > >antony 3121 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Howard, Very pleasant to see you here. On d-l I don't always have time to check all entries so one of my strategies is to read your well-reasoned posts and if they indicate a worthwhile topic I read the others. Robert --- wrote: > Hi, Num - > > Thanks so much for this. As I understand it, the > Diamond Sutra is one > of the earliest of the "wisdom" sutras of Mahayana, and is, > indeed, not far > from the root of the Buddhist tree. I personally find that > such sutras can at > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. > David Kalupahana, > a respected Buddhist scholar and Theravadin, has expressed his > admiration of > such sutras. > BTW, this is my first post to this group, though I've > been a member > for a while. For the most part, I will content myself with > only reading the > erudite posts on the list, inasmuch as I am very far from > being the Buddhist > scholar that most of the posters are. Among other things, I > consider > membership on this list as constituting a marvelous > opportunity for a > "painless", gradual acquaintance with abhidhammic terminology > and concepts. > Oh, BTW, the signature line at the very bottom of this > post of mine is > (a poetic paraphrase of) a part of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra. > > With metta, > Howard > > > In a message dated 1/31/01 12:29:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > writes: > > > > Hi khun Amara, > > > > The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little > different from > > the > > plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site > that I gave > > you, > > but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted > by Charles > > Patton. > > I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so > you can see > > some > > differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long > e-mail, pardon me. > > Bear with me, OK. > > space> > > > > > > > > Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, > just to > > different > > person, at different time and space. This is just my > personal opinion. > > Let > > me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a > destiny. I need a > > boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. > I am totally > > agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use > conscience in > > studying > > dhamma. > > > > Appreciate your input. > > Anumodhana. > > > > > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 3122 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Off for 3 weeks Central America? I always wanted to visit there. best wishes for your vacation. I'm planning an internet vacation (another one) myself starting from tommorow for the next few weeks - will post an occasional note when I have time. Robert --- wrote: > Hi all, > > Just let you guys know that I will be off for 3 weeks for my > vacation in > Central America. I'll try to keep up if I have an access to > the net. > > Thanks for all the input and feedback. I've learned a lot > from this > group-discussion. > > Appreciated > > Num > 3123 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:41am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? hello Gayan and Mike, From what I can tell, it was Vakkali that I was thinking. The despondency when the Buddha told him to leave, the meditating at the edge of the precipice, all that was part of what I heard when told the story. This seems to be from the Apadana account, Ap.ii.465, and from Itv. 92. I see there is also another account in which Vakkali stabs himself to death (but reaching arahathood just before the lights go out), SN.iii.119. thanks for the name. jinavamsa ======== --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks, Gayan, > > This is at SN22.87--I couldn't find it in English on > the web. I'm not sure that this is the same guy who > followed the Buddha around because he liked looking at > him. > > Regards, Sir, > > mike > > --- <> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > > 'Vakkali' > > > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > > This story shows the different ways that people get > > into the 'path' > > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > > apparent actions. > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > 3124 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 4:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Hi Jim, Could you give me the names of books that you use as reference, esp. the root one? Is it a dictionary? I might try to check from my university library when I come back. Thanks Num 3125 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:30am Subject: Re: Nirodha Dear Bikkhu > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit I have yet to come across this book. It is a work of Buddhaghosa isn't it? Are you aware of it being on-line anywhere, or at least the portions you mention being worthwhile lloking at in relation to Nirodha Dear All Thanks everyone for your responses I do not debate that Nirodha is taken to mean extinction. Look in any useful dictionary and see that like all words there are other dimensions to the understanding of the term Nirodha. For example there is Nirvana sometimes translated as Unbinding. Which for me deepens it's meaning without twisting it into something else. My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term Nirvana where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of describing qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these terms they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of the Vedic tradition at the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that flame was produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them. Nirodha also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was imparting to them in using this term. 3126 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Thanks, Robert! :-) With metta, Howard > Dear Howard, > Very pleasant to see you here. On d-l I don't always have time > to check all entries so one of my strategies is to read your > well-reasoned posts and if they indicate a worthwhile topic I > read the others. > > Robert > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3127 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 11:05am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > I personally find that such sutras can at > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. Dear Howard, Welcome to the discussions, it's good to hear from more members of the group! If you care to elaborate on the above I would love to hear it. I have come to feel that the more different opinions I see the more I appreciate the Buddha's wisdom or at least my own view of the Dhamma. Looking forward to hearing from you more often, Amara 3128 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 11:16am Subject: Re: Off for 3 weeks > Just let you guys know that I will be off for 3 weeks for my vacation in > Central America. I'll try to keep up if I have an access to the net. Dear Num, Bon voyage and have a great time!!! I do hope you have some time and opportunity to check in on us also, I really enjoyed our exchanges. As the saying goes, that which does not kill you..., well I think that that which does not convince me, makes me more steadfast in my beliefs, so I do love oppositions for their own sakes. I mean to say that when I say we are completely opposed opinion wise I rather appreciate it, for me it leads to stimulating discussions and sometimes clearer understanding. Another reason for me to really appreciate this group and all its members, Looking forward to hearing more from you, Amara 3129 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Hi all, I just have time to check my thai Tipitaka CDrom. I found Ektatakapali verse. There are about 50 names of bikku, bikkuni, layman and laywoman who are the best in different fields. This is the location from my CDrom ref, Suttantapitaka boook 12, Anggutaranikaya vagga 146 page 28. Eka-tuka-tikanibata. Num 3130 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi again, I also found 2 Vakkali thera mentioned in Tipitaka. The first one who was fond of the Buddha. He became a monk when he was 7y/o. It was mentioned that he was born in Patumatara Buddha as well. He didn't kill himself but he ran down from the kijhakuta peak to see the Buddha and was enlighted on the way down. This is from suttantapitaka book 25, kuttakanikaya. vagga 122, page 122. The second one who attempted suicide when he was quiet old. This one is in suttantapitaka book 9, sangyuttanikaya, vagga 219 page 119. He became arahat and did not complete suicide. That's from Thai CDROM. I don't know, is this helpful or just satisfied my curiosity. Num 3131 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 0:52pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > I don't know, is this helpful or just satisfied my curiosity. Dear Num, Very helpful, so maybe both? The citta is a very intricate thing that only the person could rally know, isn't it. By the way, on ambiguity, Gayan introduced us to the vancaka dhamma, (38 kinds of 'disguised citta') which might interest you. I think you might search our archives for them, and I am preparing to put the list and its translation in the website also. . Will notify the group when done, as usual, Amara 3132 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, I'm not sure if I'll catch you before you leave, but if not, perhaps you'd like a little more discussion on bhavarupa as I wasn't quite happy with my earlier response as you may have been looking for more detail as well. I'm checking more information in 'The Physical Phenomena in and Around Ourselves' by Nina Van Gorkom and I'm going to be quoting from this. (Pls note I have an old manuscipt edition which may now be updated or printed or on the web, I'm not sure.) I know you are familiar with most of this information, but I'm also quoting some of the introduction for others who've never heard of bhavarupa. "....There are 28 kinds of rupa in all. Rupas are not merely textbook terms, they are realities which can be experienced. Not everybody can experience all kinds of rupa, it depends on one's accumulations which realities can be experienced. However, learning about all kinds of realities is helpful in order to understand more clearly that what we take for 'self' consists of many different elements which do not stay....." "...The objects which can be experienced through the sense-doors and also the senses (pasada rupas) are gross rupas, the other rupas are subtle rupas. The pasada rupas are produced solely by kamma. There are also subtle rupas which are produced soley by kamma. They are: the woman faculty, the man-faculty, the life-faculty and the heart-base. As to the woman-faculty (itthindriyam) and the man-faculty (purisindriyam), which are collectively called bhavarupa or sex, these are rupas produced by kamma from the first moment of life and throughout life. Thus, it is due to kamma whether one is born as a male or as a female. The 'Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 322) explains that birth as a human being is kusala vipaka, but since good deeds have different degrees also their results have different degrees. Birth as a female is the result of kusala kamma which is of a lesser degree than the kusala kamma which conditions birth as a male...." "The 'Atthasalaini' (II, Boo II, ChIII,322) gives the following definitions of the female faculty and the male faculty: 'Of these two controlling faculties the feminine has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of a woman, the function of showing 'this is a woman', the manifestation which is the cause of femininity in feature, mark, occupation, deportment. The masculine controllign faculty has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of a man, the function of showing 'this is a man', the manifestation which is the cause of masculinity in feature, etc. (note: See also Dhammasangani par.633,634 and Vis. X1V, 58) These two faculties which are coextensive with the whole body (Vis X1V,58) are not known by visual cognition but only by mind-cognition. But, the Atthasalani (321) states, their characteristic features etc., which are conditioned by their respective faculties, are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition. Seeing experiences only visible object, it does not know 'This is a woman' or 'This is a man'. The citta which recognizes feminine or masculine features does so through the mind-door, but this recognizing is conditioned by seeing. When the commentary states that these characteristic features are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition, it does not speak in detail about the different processes of cittas which experience objects through the eye-door and through the mind-door...." (end quote) There's plenty more, but this may add a little more to your consideration and at least give you a few references to follow up on your return to St Louis. Best regards and have a good trip! Sarah 3133 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:34pm Subject: Another 'Word' Dear friends, We have just finished uploading 'Satipatthana', an excerpt from the transcript of a dhamma discussion in Cambodia, in the section 'A Few Words' in , and would appreciate any comments on or off list, Thank you in advance, Amara 3134 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:39pm Subject: Welcomes Dear Antony, Ven Dhammapiyo and Howard, I'd just like to add another welcome to the ones you've already received. We all hope you find the list useful and enjoyable. I'm very glad to see your comments and look forward to plenty more. If you would care to share any more details about your background/interest in dhamma, we'd all be glad to hear. Best wishes, Sarah 3135 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha --- wrote: > My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term Nirvana where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of describing qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these terms they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of the Vedic tradition at the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that flame was produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them. Nirodha also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was imparting to them in using this term.>>>>>>> Dear Antony, The metaphor of fire is a very good one to help us of today-not just those ancient ones- understand nibbana. There are only 4 types of paramattha dhamma (Fundamental elements ). These are citta cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The first three can be classified in different ways- such as the khandas- aggregates, dhatus- elements, ayatanas-sensefields, Or as simply nama and rupa. These fundamental phenomena are in us and around us- there is nothing else. They arise and pass away so fast that we have the illusion that "we' exist, that there are things that last such as cars and computers. This is a deep perversion of perception that is so hard to overcome. To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). Robert 3136 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha robert: this is the most succinct restatement of paticcasamupada i think i've ever read, re: > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). it's suddenly so obvious: it's the craving after nama and rupa which conditions their arising. cut the craving after nama and rupa, cut ignorance of why they are not worth craving... **and they don't arise** **bing!!** many thanks! bruce 3137 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:57pm Subject: conditions for satipatthana Dear Kom, Kom- I think you could answer at least as well as me. But here are some brief thoughts anyway. The firm and right understanding is the most essential element; it takes time to develop it. However, remember the virtuos circle I mentioned a while back. The intellectual understanding supports direct awareness but direct awareness helps the conceptual understanding to grow too. I think it would be very hard to have firm understanding of anatta if there had never been direct awareness. Theoretical and direct understanding grow together- and other faculties such as saddha, confidence also become powerful. There are also the paramis. These are very much linked to right understanding though. Take khanti(patience parami): when there is regular, profound contemplation of the khandas one is able to accept anything with patience. One sees that the stories of monks of old who were patient (with awareness )while being murdered was not just legend. One knows that one could endure anything too when panna and sati are present. Correspondingly one sees that whenever one is upset or worried that this is because there is no understanding of the conditioned nature of dhammas, that one is lost in a world of concept. This is very clear. (But one doesn't expect there to be always awareness- or even right thinking- because it should be known that this is conditioned- it can't be conjured up) Before I heard the Dhamma I was good sometimes and bad sometimes (just like now). The difference: it was all self. robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert et Al, > > Are their any other conditions for Satipatthana to arise > besides the firm and right understandings of dhamma? > > kom > 3138 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:00pm Subject: movies (bruce) Hi Bruce, Thanks for your wonderful posts. I always enjoy reading your questions and hear your insights. As you implied in one of your posts, indulgence in movies is almost invariably rooted in lobha. Because the sensory stimulation is so intense, it is very difficult to cultivate samma-sati while watching a movie (even though it is theoretically possible). This is why abstaining from watching shows is included in the eight precepts. I look at the eight precepts as training guidelines for serious lay students of Dhamma. Following them can be of enormous help in walking on the path. As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives the desire to watch movies, and the mind recoils from the thought of going to movies because it clearly recognizes that to do so only serves to expose the mind to prime conditions for cultivating a vibrant and vigorous lobha. On the other hand, some wise person said (paraphrase to the best of memory): "Arahants don't keep precepts; Arahants don't break precepts," meaning that as wisdom increases, keeping the precepts is effortless. But keeping precepts such as abstaining from movies is difficult for the lay follower--so difficult, in fact, that to succeed one risks cultivating intense dosa for fear of temporarily cultivating lobha. Thus, when wisdom is developed to the point where the desire for watching shows becomes weaker and weaker, it is a wondrous thing. However, such wisdom cannot be forced. It only comes gradually, but it begins by intellectually recognizing the dangers of indulging sensual pleasures. (cf. Brahmajala Sutta, Samaññaphala Sutta) Dan 3139 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:30pm Subject: Conditions for pañña Dear Bruce, Robert, Although pañña does arise from listening to the Dhamma and thinking about the Dhamma, this is all at the level of sutamayapañña (wisdom via hearing) or cintamayapañña (wisdom via thinking). In the Vibhanga (chapter 16) is the oft-repeated phrase: "sabbapi samapannassa pañña bhavanamaya pañña" (The wisom of one who has attained is wisdom by means of development). "Development" (bhavana), as we are constantly reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, means a lot of hard work, formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, seeking out conducive physical conditions for contemplation, restraining the senses, restraining lust, restraining hatred, practicing replacing the unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing preventing the unwholesome from arising, practicing, practicing, practicing. And many special words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not delay, or you will regret it later." 3140 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: Conditions for pañña - <> wrote: > Dear Bruce, Robert, " (bhavana), as we are constantly > reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, means a lot of hard work, > formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, seeking out conducive > physical conditions for contemplation, restraining the senses, > restraining lust, restraining hatred, practicing replacing the > unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing preventing the unwholesome > from arising, practicing, practicing, practicing. >>> dear dan, Who is practicing? Robert 3141 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nirodha Yes, Visuddhi Magga is Buddhaghosa's commentary. The book is expensive in my opinion. It has just started to be posted in sections by a member of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031217181186219249165026144204051183019182055105236158076086020224 I am not sure that they have gotten to the portion you might be interested in. Hope this helps. Metta to you! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:00 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nirodha Dear Bikkhu > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit I have yet to come across this book. It is a work of Buddhaghosa isn't it? Are you aware of it being on-line anywhere, or at least the portions you mention being worthwhile lloking at in relation to Nirodha 3142 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Conditions for pañña Dear Dan, You know when I first got into Buddhism I strove unrelentingly. It was clear that this was THE truth. I quickly saw the danger in craving. So, what did I do? Tried to stop it,avoided stimulating sense contacts, put in lots of effort. What this did was increase the sense of self. Happy when I could control(i.e. when avijja was controlling). Sad when "I"couldn't. I thought one had to be calm and concentrated before wisdom could arise. Couldn't see that it was just clinging to concept. Those were hard times; I was so set on this idea that life got more and more difficult. It was simply additional craving. Eventually, against the advice of some teachers, I studied Abhidhamma. And so my old way of viewing the world has been gradually overturned. I think there is not much change outwardly. I still like the same things; still hate cleaning my house; still scratch and fart; want my children to do well. I see more and more just how selfish I am - much more than I had ever thought. But this is good to know. You wrote earlier ">>I look at the eight precepts as training guidelines for serious lay students of Dhamma. Following them can be of enormous help in walking on the path. As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives the desire to watch movies, and the mind recoils from the thought of going to movies because it clearly recognizes that to do so only serves to expose the mind to prime conditions for cultivating a vibrant and vigorous lobha.>>>>" "As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives the desire to watch movies" Sure, even non-buddhists know that they go to the movies because of desire. "and the mind recoils from the thought of going" Is this recoil with dosa(aversion). Or is it with a subtle idea of control? Who has no more desire for sense objects? only anagami and arahant. It may be useful to avoid movies; or it may increase the sense of a self who can control. People can do anything with miccha-ditthi. I was looking at a photo of a yogi in India who for the past 20 odd years has held his right arm up in the air. It is withered and misshapen. The finger nails are all entwined in the hand. It must be so painful and yet he can endure this much . He doesn't go to movies but is there any wisdom? In the Buddhas time there were laypeople who took up the eight precepts- but mostly(unless they were anagami) only on certain days of the week. Some of course did observe continually. And for those who did it wisely it was very helpful. I know some of Khun Sujin's students now who also keep the eight precepts. Everyone can see lobha (desire) when it is strong. But it is taken as my lobha. However, when lobha is seen with the eye of wisdom it is not taken for self. This is the section in the satipatthana sutta called “mind-objects”. The difference is subtle. Citta(consciousness) in both cases experiences the same object. Sanna, (perception) experiences the same object. But the understanding of it is completely different. It is deeper than just thinking “lobha is not self”. It is some level of direct understanding. No one can tell us exactly how to have this understanding. In fact real understanding arises because one has heard the teachings over many lives. There has been profound contemplation over and over. And so the “soil in which understanding grows” (Vis XIV32)is turned over well. The Visuddhimagga (XIV28) about Wisdom: it is "distinguishable into five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery of scriptures, hearing, questioning and prior effort" It notes that achievement is arahantship. "hearing is learning of Dhamma carefully and attentively... Questioning is discussion of knotty points". .."prior effort is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas" You cited the > Majjhima Nikaya: "Meditate now, Ananda, and do > not > delay, or you will regret it later.">>>> Yes, the Buddha gave the roots of trees as dwelling place to monks. And their "job" is to develop the eightfold path wherever they are. Even while they are not living at the roots of trees, even while they are in the toilet or talking to laypeople they are reminded of the urgency of satipatthana. That is there real home. As Nina Van Gorkom wrote to me just yesterday "the difference between a monks life and laylife is like heaven and earth" - if it is followed wisely. Laypeople should see this urgency too. satipatthana can arise even while enjoying oneself. And some types of samattha can be done while one lives a normal life. The Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about recollection of the virtues of the Buddha, and recollection of the Dhamma and several other types of sammattha that: “` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children” In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: “as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerened with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days.” These merchants said they were rather busy as they had children, they enjoyed perfume, fine clothes, gold and silver. They were all sotapanna already (as the Buddha himself notes) but they lived lives of luxury. Thus there is no rule about how to live. But we should not neglect the development of insight in whatever situation we are in. The first step though is to understand anatta so that wrong view of self can be diminished and then eliminated. Eradication of senses desire takes much longer. I had an ideal of what the path should be like. It has turned out differently. I'm not saying follow me; I'm suggesting it is not so easy to make rules about how wisdom develops. There is a refrain from a song by Leonard Cohen (who lives in a a zen temple now): "there is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in". Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a serious student. Robert 3143 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 1:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Friends Buddha described nibbana as--> etam santam etam paneetam , yadidam ? sabbasamkharasamatho , sabbupadhipatinissaggo , virago , NIRODHO , nibbanam hope this helps rgds 3144 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi, Amara - In a message dated 1/31/01 11:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > > I personally find that such > sutras can at > > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. > > > Dear Howard, > > Welcome to the discussions, it's good to hear from more members of the > group! If you care to elaborate on the above I would love to hear it. > I have come to feel that the more different opinions I see the more I > appreciate the Buddha's wisdom or at least my own view of the Dhamma. > > Looking forward to hearing from you more often, > > Amara > ================================ Well, there's not much for me to say in this regard. There is Mahayana, and there is Mahayana! ;-)) Parts of Mahayana seem to me to stray quite far from thebuddhadhamma. On the other hand, many of the Mahayana sutras, especially early ones, seem to legitimately present Dhamma, but with a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in the Pali suttas. And this slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate certain aspects of the Dhamma in the same way the good commentary will. There are differences in terminology between Theravada and Mahayana that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. But once one finds appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem to fit well with Theravada. For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in Theravada and Mahayana are related, but different. The Mahayana notion of emptiness exists in Theravada, but is different from what Theravada means by emptiness. As I understand it, in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = impersonality (of all dhammas). In Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all dhammas, i.e., lack of independent identity/existence of all (conditioned) dhammas due to their dependently originated status and impermanence. This latter notion, of course also exists very much so in Theravada, though I don't think that it is exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. One possible disconnection: Both Theravada and Mahayana consider nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, Theravada means by this that nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal (being empty of self or anything related to a self) and being empty of all conditions, whereas Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in the same sense as it considers all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as lacking of independent existence. In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and nibbana in some sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3145 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 0:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Hi Num, I use many books for reference -- too many to list here. For the verbal roots (dhaatu-s), I have four lists (a Sanskrit one & 3 Pali ones). The titles are: Dhaatupaa.tha (2), Dhaatumaalaa, Dhaatuma~njuusa. If you are interested in getting copies online I can help you with this. Please contact me offlist after you return from your vacation. The roots are not listed alphabetically by initial letters but by final letters eg dhar would be listed with other roots ending in -r. Roots are divided into 7 or more verb classes. These lists are excellent for anyone who takes an interest in Pali/Sanskrit etymology and word formation. Have a pleasant and safe journey. Best wishes, Jim A. >Hi Jim, > >Could you give me the names of books that you use as reference, esp. the root >one? Is it a dictionary? I might try to check from my university library >when I come back. > >Thanks > >Num 3146 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 1:10am Subject: Re: Conditions for pañña This confluence of five aggregates. But this is a bit wordy, awkward, and cumbersome, so I'll stick with the everyday, conventional, easy alternative "I". Sheesh, I'll even throw away the quotes and say that I practice, you practice, we practice just so the conversation can flow somewhat naturally. > dear dan, > Who is practicing? > Robert 3147 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 7:32am Subject: Re: Conditions for pañña Dear Pali experts & friends, --- <> wrote: > And many special > words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the > Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not > delay, or you will regret it later." Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for these last words which it may be useful to discuss. Sara 3148 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 9:51am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > > > I personally find that such > > sutras can at > > > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. > > If you care to elaborate on the above I would love to hear it. > On the other hand, many of the Mahayana > sutras, especially early ones, seem to legitimately present Dhamma, but with > a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in the Pali suttas. And this > slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate certain aspects of the Dhamma in > the same way the good commentary will. > There are differences in terminology between Theravada and Mahayana > that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. But once one finds > appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem to fit well with Theravada. > For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in Theravada and Mahayana are > related, but different. The Mahayana notion of emptiness exists in Theravada, > but is different from what Theravada means by emptiness. As I understand it, > in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = impersonality (of all dhammas). In > Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all dhammas, i.e., lack of > independent identity/existence of all (conditioned) dhammas due to their > dependently originated status and impermanence. This latter notion, of course > also exists very much so in Theravada, though I don't think that it is > exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. > One possible disconnection: Both Theravada and Mahayana consider > nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, Theravada means by this that > nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal (being empty of self or > anything related to a self) and being empty of all conditions, whereas > Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in the same sense as it considers > all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as lacking of independent existence. > In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and nibbana in some sense. Dear Howard, I think our views of a good commentary also differs: to me it should help clarify or elaborate the Tipitaka, although some commentaries do consider points that I would have thought difficult as easy while explaining others in staggering detail(!) But I have yet to find one that counters it on important points like the one above or the suttas/sutras Num mentioned. Negating the difference of the reality of nibbana from all other realities would seem to defeat the purpose of the four ariya sacca and therefore of Buddhism itself. Amara 3149 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditions for pañña Dear Sarah, >Dear Pali experts & friends, > >--- <> wrote: > >> And many special >> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the >> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not >> delay, or you will regret it later." > >Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for these last words >which it may be useful to discuss. "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i 118 (MN 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think there is any with Ananda. Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and vipassanaa". "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 (there's a bit more just before this) Best wishes, Jim A. 3150 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:42am Subject: Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Jim, your contributions are absolutely invaluable to this list. mn --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > >Dear Pali experts & friends, > > > >--- <> wrote: > > > >> And many special > >> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of > the last of the > >> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, > Ananda, and do not > >> delay, or you will regret it later." > > > >Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for > these last words > >which it may be useful to discuss. > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). > Also found at M i 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think > there is any with > Ananda. > > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as > "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m > hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3151 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:01am Subject: Re: buddhaghosa's book My dear Bhikkhu, thankyou I will have a look at the list. I have read excerpts from this work by Buddhaghosa and many texts refer to the benefit of reading it. It seems there are online versions, or partial versions, in german or dutch (I think). I am a working householder so if I save up I could possibly afford it when I come accross a copy. Sydney, Australia is not such a small town, there must be a copy here somewhere. thanks for your assistance antony --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Yes, Visuddhi Magga is Buddhaghosa's commentary. > > The book is expensive in my opinion. > > It has just started to be posted in sections by a member of dhamma- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=034176066165146028033082190 > > I am not sure that they have gotten to the portion you might be interested in. > > Hope this helps. > > Metta to you! > ----- Original Message 3152 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:15am Subject: Re: Conditions for pañña "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He [the Teacher or the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, the fourth requisite condition... "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that -- in their meaning & expression -- proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition... "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence [the second jhana]. This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition... "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling...Such is perception...Such are fabrications...Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet- unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy life hold him in esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification [of mind]. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 Pañña Sutta Discernment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-2.html --- <> wrote: > Dear Bruce, Robert, > Although pañña does arise from listening to the Dhamma and thinking > about the Dhamma, this is all at the level of sutamayapañña (wisdom > via hearing) or cintamayapañña (wisdom via thinking). In the Vibhanga > (chapter 16) is the oft-repeated phrase: "sabbapi samapannassa pañña > bhavanamaya pañña" (The wisom of one who has attained is wisdom by > means of development). "Development" (bhavana), as we are constantly > reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, means a lot of hard work, > formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, seeking out conducive > physical conditions for contemplation, restraining the senses, > restraining lust, restraining hatred, practicing replacing the > unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing preventing the unwholesome > from arising, practicing, practicing, practicing. And many special > words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the > Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not > delay, or you will regret it later." 3153 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:24am Subject: Re: Nirodha Not being equipped with the skill myself, could anyone turn that into the english equivilant words. And I may be asking too much here but is NIRODHO grammatically different to NIRODHA. Thanks for the post I won't harp on the subject to much longer I promise. --- <> wrote: > > > > > Dear Friends > > Buddha described nibbana as--> > > etam santam etam paneetam , yadidam ? > sabbasamkharasamatho , sabbupadhipatinissaggo , virago , NIRODHO , nibbanam > > > > > > hope this helps > > rgds 3154 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:46pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditions for pañña Dear Khun Mike, Anumoddhana for your sharing the Pañña Sutta. Attached is Canki sutta that I believe talks about conditions for Satipatthana. Also attached is the Indriya-bhavana Sutta, the sutta that dhd5 took an excerpt from. Dear dhd5, > Dear Bruce, Robert, > > Although pañña does arise from listening to the > Dhamma and thinking > > about the Dhamma, this is all at the level of > sutamayapañña (wisdom > > via hearing) or cintamayapañña (wisdom via > thinking). I think most of us agree on this. > In the > Vibhanga > > (chapter 16) is the oft-repeated phrase: > "sabbapi samapannassa > pañña > > bhavanamaya pañña" (The wisom of one who has > attained is wisdom by > > means of development). "Development" (bhavana), > as we are > constantly > > reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, Again, I think most of us agree that Satipathanna (patipati, the practice) is the only way to reach nibhanna. > means a lot > of hard work, > > formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, I think this is where some of us don't agree. To reach nibhanna, there must be countless numbers of satipathanna arising to cognize the paramatha dhamma. It is clear that this process is long. It requires chanda, viriya, firm conviction, and panna to reach this. Buddha didn't mention that it is necessary to develop jhana to develop satipatthana. Buddha also didn't mention that to develop satipatthana, one must sit and go through a retreat course. Is there a sutta where Buddha taught Satipatthana to the householders in the way that the "formal" meditation teachers do nowadays? Many householders achieved nibhanna without going through a "formal" meditation. They must develop Satipathanna until they reach nibhanna. Many mentioned in the sutta achieved nibhanna while listening to Buddha, and not while sitting in meditations. > seeking out conducive > > physical conditions for contemplation, He mentioned the middle way for this: neither austere nor indulgent. > restraining the senses, > > restraining lust, restraining hatred, This is through, as Robert has mentioned in the past, Adhisila sikkha. When satipatthana arises to cognize the paramatha dhammas which can be lobha, dosa, and moha, at that moment, there is no akusala and there is panna. When panna becomes more developed, there are more and more moments of panna replacing the akusala dhamma which becomes fewer. > practicing replacing the > > unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing > > from arising, practicing, practicing, > practicing. When panna arises to cognize the akusala, knowing that it is unwholesome, more wholesome cittas arise. While cittas are wholesome, there are no wholesomeness. There is no me who practices, no me who wants the wholesomeness to arise, no me who wants the satipathanna to arise, no me to notice, no me to observe, no me to practice. Satipatthana is sankhara dhamma just like any other sankhara dhamma: there are conditions for it to arise, and therefore it arises. The practicing me will be more of a hindrance than a support for Satipathanna to arise. > And many special > > words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines > of the last of the > > Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, > Ananda, and do not > > delay, or you will regret it later." As Jim has mentioned, the commentaries interpret this statement as being both samatthana and vipassana. However, if you read most of this sutta, it mostly mentioned Adhisila sikha and not samatha bhavana. My observations in reading the suttas are that to understand it, we must understand who the buddha is speaking to and in what contexts. Unless explicitly asked about the benefits of being a Bikkhu or a life of a bikkhu or other related things about samana lives, the Buddha doesn't usually mention jhana development to the householders. He would mention jhana development when explicitly asked about the benefits or the live of a bikkhu, or for those who are pre-disposed to becoming a samana or a bikkhu. The following canki sutta mentions the conditions for Satipatthana to arise. It seems to me that sutamaya panna are conditions for cintamaya panna and cintamaya panna are conditions for satipatthana panna. As Roberts has mentioned and implied (to me) in this sutta, these different levels of panna are supporting conditions to one another. Note that the texts in square brackets [] are notes that I made when comparing this with the Thai tipitika (unfortunately, don't know pali). Majjhima Nikaya 95 Canki Sutta With Canki (excerpt) For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- .... Now at that time the Blessed One was sitting & exchanging courtesies & conversation with some very senior brahmins. It so happened that a brahmin student named Kapadika was seated in the assembly: young, shaven-headed, sixteen years old, a master of the Three Vedas with their vocabularies, liturgy, phonology, & etymologies, and the histories as a fifth; skilled in philology & grammar, well-versed in cosmology & the marks of a great man. While the very senior brahmins were conversing with the Blessed One, he kept breaking in & interrupting their talk. So the Blessed One scolded him, "Venerable Bharadvaja, don't break in & interrupt while the very senior brahmins are conversing. Wait until they are finished talking." When this was said, the brahmin Canki said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, don't scold the brahmin student Kapadika. He is a clansman, learned, wise, with good delivery. He is capable of taking part in this discussion with Master Gotama." Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, "Yes, this brahmin student Kapadika must be accomplished in the texts of the Three Vedas, inasmuch as the brahmins honor him so." Then the thought occurred to Kapadika, "When Gotama the contemplative meets my gaze with his, I will ask him a question." And so the Blessed One, encompassing Kapadika's awareness with his awareness, met his gaze. Kapadika thought, "Gotama the contemplative has turned to me. Suppose I ask him a question." So he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, with regard to the ancient hymns of the brahmins -- passed down through oral transmission & included in their canon -- the brahmins have come to the definite conclusion that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless." What does Master Gotama have to say to this?" "Tell me, Bharadvaja, is there among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And has there been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns -- those ancient hymns, sung, repeated, & collected, which brahmins at present still sing, still chant, repeating what was said, repeating what was spoken -- i.e., Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa & Bhagu: was there even one of these who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "So then, Bharadvaja, it seems that there isn't among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns ... even one who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmins turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?" "It's not only out of conviction, Master Gotama, that the brahmins honor this. They also honor it as unbroken tradition." "Bharadvaja, first you went by conviction. Now you speak of unbroken tradition. There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked ... truly an unbroken tradition ... well-reasoned ... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless." "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something ... holds an unbroken tradition ... has something reasoned through analogy ... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. We regard this as the safeguarding of the truth. But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth." "There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities -- qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed .... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy. When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion .... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive. When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion .... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded. When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction [saddha] in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas [wisdom via hearing]. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas [paramatha dhamma becomes appropriate subjects for contemplation]. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire [chanda] arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing [Viriya]. Willing, he contemplates [compares] (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion [viriya and samadhi]. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment [satipattthana panna, patipati, the practice]. "To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth. "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth." "The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities [the supporting factors for developing satipatthana]: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth." "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. We regard this as the final attainment of the truth. But what quality is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "Exertion [viriya in cognizing paramatha dhamma] is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, Bharadvaja. If one didn't make an exertion, one wouldn't finally attain the truth. Because one makes an exertion, one finally attains the truth. Therefore, exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "But what quality is most helpful for exertion? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for exertion." "Contemplating [compares] is most helpful for exertion, Bharadvaja. If one didn't contemplate, one wouldn't make an exertion. Because one contemplates, one makes an exertion. Therefore, contemplating is most helpful for exertion." "But what quality is most helpful for contemplating? ..." "Being willing [viriya] .... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate ...." "But what quality is most helpful for being willing? ..." "Desire [chanda] .... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing ...." "But what quality is most helpful for desire? ..." [dhamma appropriate for contemplation] "Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas .... If one didn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't arise ...." "But what quality is most helpful for coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas? ..." "Penetrating the meaning [panna through hearing].... If one didn't penetrate the meaning, one wouldn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas ...." "But what quality is most helpful for penetrating the meaning? ...." "Remembering the Dhamma .... If one didn't remember the Dhamma, one wouldn't penetrate the meaning ...." "But what quality is most helpful for remembering the Dhamma? ... " "Hearing the Dhamma .... If one didn't hear the Dhamma, one wouldn't remember the Dhamma ...." "But what quality is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma? ... " "Lending ear .... If one didn't lend ear, one wouldn't hear the Dhamma ...." "But what quality is most helpful for lending ear? ... " "Growing close .... If one didn't grow close, one wouldn't lend ear ...." "But what quality is most helpful for growing close? ... " "Visiting .... If one didn't visit, one wouldn't grow close ...." "But what quality is most helpful for visiting? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for visiting." "Conviction [dhamma] is most helpful for visiting, Bharadvaja. If conviction [in a person] didn't arise, one wouldn't visit [that person]. Because conviction arises, one visits. Therefore, conviction is most helpful for visiting." "We have asked Master Gotama about safeguarding the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about safeguarding the truth. We like that & agree with that,[1] and so we are gratified. We have asked Master Gotama about awakening to the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about awakening to the truth. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. We have asked Master Gotama about finally attaining the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about finally attaining the truth. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. We have asked Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for finally attaining the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about the quality most helpful for finally attaining the truth. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. Whatever we have asked Master Gotama, Master Gotama has answered it. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. "We used to think, 'Who are these bald-headed "contemplatives," these menial, dark offspring of [Brahma] the Kinsman's feet?[2] Who are they to know the Dhamma?' But now Master Gotama has inspired within us a contemplative-love for contemplatives, a contemplative-confidence in contemplatives, a contemplative-respect for contemplatives. Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! In many ways has Master Gotama made the Dhamma clear -- just as if he were to place upright what has been overturned, to reveal what has been hidden, to point out the way to one who is lost, or to set out a lamp in the darkness so that those with eyes might see forms. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from this day forward, for life." ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Notes 1. Notice that Kapadika is careful to safeguard the truth in the way he expresses his approval for the Buddha's teachings. [Go back] 2. The brahmins regarded Brahma as their original ancestor, and so called him their "Kinsman." The commentary notes that they regarded themselves as born from his mouth, while other castes were born from lower parts of his body, down to contemplatives (samana), who they said were born from his feet. [Go back] ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- See also: AN III.66; AN IX.1. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Revised: Fri 1 December 2000 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn95.html ============================================================ ================= Majjhima Nikaya 152 Indriya-bhavana Sutta The Development of the Faculties For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Kajjangalas in the Bamboo Grove. Then the young brahmin Uttara, a student of Parasiri (Parasivi) went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged friendly greetings & courtesies. After this exchange of courteous greetings he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Uttara, does the brahmin Parasiri teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "Yes, master Gotama, he does." "And how does he teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how the brahmin Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties." "That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahmin Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear." When this was said, the young brahmin Uttara sat silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. The Blessed One -- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words -- said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the brahmin Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one is something else entirely." "Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, for the Blessed One to teach the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or having opened them, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to forms cognizable by the eye. "Furthermore, when hearing a sound with the ear, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily snap his fingers, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to sounds cognizable by the ear. "Furthermore, when smelling an aroma with the nose, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as drops of water roll off a gently sloping lotus leaf & do not remain there, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to aromas cognizable by the nose. "Furthermore, when tasting a flavor with the tongue, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily spit out a ball of saliva gathered on the tip of his tongue, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to flavors cognizable by the tongue. "Furthermore, when touching a tactile sensation with the body, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to tactile sensations cognizable by the body. "Furthermore, when cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity. With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might let two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow would the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly would vanish & disappear. That is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to ideas cognizable by the intellect. "And how is one a person in training, someone following the way? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing. "When hearing a sound with the ear...When smelling an aroma with the nose...When tasting a flavor with the tongue...When touching a tactile sensation with the body...When cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing. "This is how one is a person in training, someone following the way. "And how is one a noble one with developed faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants -- in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not -- cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful. "When hearing a sound with the ear...When smelling an aroma with the nose...When tasting a flavor with the tongue...When touching a tactile sensation with the body...When cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants -- in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not -- cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful. "This is how one is a noble one with developed faculties. "So, Ananda, I have taught you the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one; I have taught you how one is a person in training, someone following the way; I have taught you how one is a noble one with developed faculties. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted in the Blessed One's words. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Revised: Tue 27 June 2000 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn152.html 3155 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:47pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, Thanks for starting off on this thread. I am sort of curious about how this works for people. As you mentioned, the firm and right understanding, especially of the anattaness and the conditions of the sankhara dhammas, seems almost to be the essential requirements. However, as we have seen, there seems to be a wide disagreement on this as well. Some believe that the only way that satipatthana can arise and can be developed are through "formal" practice. I am also interested to hear about the minute conditions as well. Some have mentioend that consideration of dhamma can be a condition. Some mentioned dana. Some mentioned other kind of kusala. Some mentioned akusala. One thing that I have heard before which I still don't understand is that the desire for Satipatthana to arise cannot be a condition for Satipatthana. Can satipatthana not arise to cognize the lobha, either prior, or after, Satipathanna has arisen? kom > -----Original Message----- > it takes time to develop it. However, remember the virtuos > circle I mentioned a while back. The intellectual > understanding > supports direct awareness but direct awareness helps the > conceptual understanding to grow too. I think it > would be very > hard to have firm understanding of anatta if > there had never > been direct awareness. Theoretical and direct > understanding grow > together- and other faculties such as saddha, > confidence also > become powerful. I can certainly see how these dhammas become support conditions for one another. > Before I heard the Dhamma I was good sometimes > and bad sometimes > (just like now). The difference: it was all self. The dhamma is great, isn't it? There is neither good Robert nor bad Robert. Just conditioned dhammas that rise and fall away immediately. We can have piti for any kusala dhamma, and upekkha for any akusala dhamma regardless of what we think whose it is. kom 3156 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:47pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi Howard, Welcome to the list. I hope you are enjoying your conversations. > -----Original Message----- > Well, there's not much for me to say in > this regard. There is > Mahayana, and there is Mahayana! ;-)) Parts of > Mahayana seem to me to stray > quite far from thebuddhadhamma. On the other > hand, many of the Mahayana > sutras, especially early ones, seem to > legitimately present Dhamma, but with > a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in > the Pali suttas. And this > slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate > certain aspects of the Dhamma in > the same way the good commentary will. The question is why study Mahayanna text or why study Theravada texts? If we are scholars and study the text to learn the historical significance or their differences, then we must study them both in order to discern the differences. However, if we study to learn the truth, then we must learn from the sources most likely to allow us to see the truth. > There are differences in terminology > between Theravada and Mahayana > that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. > But once one finds > appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem > to fit well with Theravada. > For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in > Theravada and Mahayana are > related, but different. The Mahayana notion of > emptiness exists in Theravada, > but is different from what Theravada means by > emptiness. As I understand it, > in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = > impersonality (of all dhammas). In > Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all > dhammas, i.e., lack of > independent identity/existence of all > (conditioned) dhammas due to their > dependently originated status and impermanence. > This latter notion, of course > also exists very much so in Theravada, though I > don't think that it is > exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. As you mentioned, the concepts (and of course, the realities) of both ultimate realities and insubstantiality both exist in the theravada texts. The concepts are pretty much interlinked. Realities are impersonal partly because they do not last; therefore, there is nothing that you can identify to be mine, yours, ours, or theirs. What was identified just a tiny moment ago as ours cease to exist a long time ago before "we" identify it as such. Things are insubstantial partly because of the same reason. Even though there is something that really exists, but because of its brief existence, it might as well not exist. Another reason for things being impersonal and insubstantial is because they are mostly conditioned. When its conditions exist, a dhamma arise, regardless of whether or not we want it to arise or not. When conditions exist, a dhamma doesn't arise, regardless of whether we want it to arise or not. How can you identify something as self when "you" cannot control its rising or falling? Although the exact meaning of the words are different, however, if it conveys the truth, there is nothing lost in learning it. > One possible disconnection: Both Theravada > and Mahayana consider > nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, > Theravada means by this that > nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal > (being empty of self or > anything related to a self) and being empty of > all conditions, whereas > Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in > the same sense as it considers > all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as > lacking of independent existence. > In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and > nibbana in some sense. This would be a really big difference. Nibhanna is not a conditioned dhamma. It doesn't rise, it doesn't fall, and it exists even when other dhammas are rising and falling rapidly. In this particular way, you can certainly think of it as being independent from other dhammas... kom 3157 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 5:12pm Subject: music too hi dan hi robert glad you're enjoying my posts, though i hope it doesn't mean you are as confused as i am :-) ok, movies, sense desires: dan you wrote: Thus, when wisdom is developed to the point where the desire > for watching shows becomes weaker and weaker, it is a wondrous thing. > However, such wisdom cannot be forced. this is already my experience exactly: once i started studying the Dhamma (reading and listening and yes formal sitting practice), the desire to go to movies, listen to music, watch television, read literature, make art: all these things started to just fall away....a few good Dhamma friends have also had the same experience... i never consciously suppressed any urges to do any of the above, the urges just evaporated...i wouldn't go so far as to say call it wisdom, though perhaps my understanding of the term panna is too closely aligned with what i know (from reading, from hearing) of the vipassana nanas.....if panna does accrue incrementally, then perhaps these desires that fall away naturally, or rather the timing of their falling, will vary from person to person....this would make sense, in that not everyone is attracted to the same sense pleasures, and/or to the same extent, to begin with.... in particular the falling away of music has been the must unusal...i never thought i would live without being surrounded by all the music i thought i "loved" so much....everything from gamelan to glam has just dropped away...this has alienated some people with whom i used to share this passion...but it's not that i now dislike music now, or that i am trying to control any urges to put it on....the urges just don't arise anymore, music is just not that important....gee maybe it sounds strange to some of the list members too: i'm wondering: has anybody else had their desire to be entertained and their urges to consume the arts simply evaporate? bruce At 12:00 2001/02/01 -0000, you wrote: > Hi Bruce, > Thanks for your wonderful posts. I always enjoy reading your questions > and hear your insights. As you implied in one of your posts, > indulgence in movies is almost invariably rooted in lobha. Because the > sensory stimulation is so intense, it is very difficult to cultivate > samma-sati while watching a movie (even though it is theoretically > possible). This is why abstaining from watching shows is included in > the eight precepts. I look at the eight precepts as training > guidelines for serious lay students of Dhamma. Following them can be > of enormous help in walking on the path. > > As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives > the desire to watch movies, and the mind recoils from the thought of > going to movies because it clearly recognizes that to do so only > serves to expose the mind to prime conditions for cultivating a > vibrant and vigorous lobha. > > On the other hand, some wise person said (paraphrase to the best of > memory): "Arahants don't keep precepts; Arahants don't break > precepts," meaning that as wisdom increases, keeping the precepts is > effortless. But keeping precepts such as abstaining from movies is > difficult for the lay follower--so difficult, in fact, that to succeed > one risks cultivating intense dosa for fear of temporarily cultivating > lobha. > > (cf. Brahmajala Sutta, Sama‚óaphala Sutta) > > Dan 3158 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 5:40pm Subject: Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Jim, (Dan & Kom) --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > >Dear Pali experts & friends, > > > >--- <> wrote: > > > >> And many special > >> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of > the last of the > >> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, > Ananda, and do not > >> delay, or you will regret it later." > > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). > Also found at M i 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think > there is any with > Ananda. > > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as > "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m > hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > Jim, I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I think the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta 152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). ............................................... Sace àkaïkhati: pañikkålaü ca appañikkålaü ca tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvà upekkhako vihareyyaü sato sampajàno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato sampajàno. Evaü kho ànanda, ariyo hoti bhàvitindriyo. ..................................................... Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses 'Practice jhana, Ananda'! When I read this sutta, I understand that the Buddha is explaining that attachment and aversion arise on account of the objects appearing through the different doorways. 'But that is conditioned, gross, dependently arisen;..' Understanding the nature of these realities, 'equanimity is established'. This is the 'indriyabhavana' with regard to the eye. The Buddha continues for the other doorways. In other words, I understand the mental development (here, vipassana) or the indriya or 'faculties'. Comments appreciated! Dan, Many thanks for the quote from this sutta. It's a very useful one to discuss in more detail. Sarah p.s. Kom, If you're referring to the complete sutta on line, if you use the hyperlink, as Mike does, it's possibly easier for some using the digest form and saves our archive space which MAY be limited at some stage... thanks. 3159 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 6:28pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom, I'm not sure if we'll tempt Robert away from his internet vacation, so I'll say a few words first! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for starting off on this thread. I am sort > of > curious about how this works for people. As you > mentioned, > the firm and right understanding, especially of the > anattaness and the conditions of the sankhara > dhammas, seems > almost to be the essential requirements. There must be plenty of right intellectual understanding first. In other words, if we have never heard the Buddha's teachings, there will be no condition for the development of Satipatthana. There will be no awareness of realities as anatta. Even if we have read some of the Tipitaka or listened to a Buddhist teacher, if there has been no skilful considering of realities as nama(mental phenomena) and rupa (physical phenomena which don't experience), the same applies. Even when satipatthana begins to develop, we need to continue listening, hearing and considering over and over and over again, I find. It's never enough! However, > as we > have seen, there seems to be a wide disagreement on > this as > well. Some believe that the only way that > satipatthana can > arise and can be developed are through "formal" > practice. When we have the idea of 'situations' there is no understanding at that time because these are concepts. Regardless of whether one is in 'formal practice', the cinema or the Californian surf, there are realities which have to be understood correctly intellectually and then directly as they appear, one at a time. > > I am also interested to hear about the minute > conditions as > well. Some have mentioend that consideration of > dhamma can > be a condition. Some mentioned dana. Some > mentioned other > kind of kusala. Consideration of dhamma is essential. Listening or reading (as we're doing here) in order to consider is essential. All kinds of kusala can be a support condition. However, it depends on different accumulations how generous someone is and whether, for example, any samatha has been developed. We know that some in the Buddha's time attained jhanas and some didn't. Some people were generous and some were stingy, but they could all develop satipatthana if they had heard about realities and saw the value in developing satipatthana. >Some mentioned akusala. One thing > that I > have heard before which I still don't understand is > that the > desire for Satipatthana to arise cannot be a > condition for > Satipatthana. Akusala (unwholesomeness) of any kind cannot be a direct condition for satipatthana. Akusala cittas(unwholesome moments of consciousness) are a condition for more akusala. However, akusala can be indirect condition by way of object predominance-condition such as when there is wise reflection on some akusala cittas. Conversely there may be attachment to kusala (skilful) deeds performed by way of decisive support-condition. When there is awareness of an akusala citta or cetasika(mental factor), there is no akusala at that moment. Desire leads to more desire regardless of the object. Desire for sati is definitely a hindrance even though the desire can be the object of sati at another moment. Can satipatthana not arise to cognize > the > lobha, either prior, or after, Satipathanna has > arisen? Sati can be aware of any reality appearing. Avijja (ignorance) is very tricky however, as Robert has discussed. It's so easy to have just a teeny hankering for that sati and to be trying to direct it rather than just being aware of whatever nama or rupa appears without minding what or when. It really is a path of patience.....any moments of doubt and wondering can also be known as conditioned realities, just for a brief instant and then gone! Kom, you may also note some useful comments on the article on Satipatthana that Amara mentioned on the website. Please add your comments and any different viewpoints or difficulties. They're a condition for some useful reflection and very occasional moments of sati! Sarah > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > it takes time to develop it. However, remember the > virtuos > > circle I mentioned a while back. The intellectual > > understanding > > supports direct awareness but direct awareness > helps the > > conceptual understanding to grow too. I think it > > would be very > > hard to have firm understanding of anatta if > > there had never > > been direct awareness. Theoretical and direct > > understanding grow > > together- and other faculties such as saddha, > > confidence also > > become powerful. > > I can certainly see how these dhammas become support > conditions for one another. > > > Before I heard the Dhamma I was good sometimes > > and bad sometimes > > (just like now). The difference: it was all self. > > The dhamma is great, isn't it? There is neither > good Robert > nor bad Robert. Just conditioned dhammas that rise > and fall > away immediately. We can have piti for any kusala > dhamma, > and upekkha for any akusala dhamma regardless of > what we > think whose it is. > > kom > 3160 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 7:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: buddhaghosa's book Let me or the list know if you need more help in locating a copy! Metta and Blessings, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:31 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: buddhaghosa's book My dear Bhikkhu, thankyou I will have a look at the list. I have read excerpts from this work by Buddhaghosa and many texts refer to the benefit of reading it. It seems there are online versions, or partial versions, in german or dutch (I think). I am a working householder so if I save up I could possibly afford it when I come accross a copy. Sydney, Australia is not such a small town, there must be a copy here somewhere. thanks for your assistance antony --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > Yes, Visuddhi Magga is Buddhaghosa's commentary. > 3161 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 0:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nirodha dear abrennan, i dont know the exact english equivalents , i stated the pali words so of anyone has a pali CD the words can be searched. I am sorry i missed one word in that phrase,(tanhakkhayo) the complete phrase is, etam santam , etam paneetam, yadidam? sabba-samkhaara-samatho , sabbuupadhipatinissaggo , tanhakkhayo , virago , nirodho , nibbanam. etam = this santham => santa+am => sanskrit Shanta => Calm? paneetam=> paneeta + am => sanskrit = Praneetha => the normal meaning is 'sweet'/Tasty ? This is calm and this is sweet... Yadidam? = What? sabba samkhaara samatho => All fabrications (sabba samkhaara) samatha ( this is something like calming down-..?) sabba upadhi patinissaggo => letting go of all 'upadhi's ( i dont know a suitable english word for upadhi ) tanhakkhayo => tanhakkhaya ->ending of tanha virago=> viraga-> non- attachment nirodho=> nirodha-> stopping ( this may mean the stopping of the cyclical existance[samsara vatta]) nibbanam=>nibbana-> this is the extinguishing ( ie. a fire) Regds. 3162 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 9:14pm Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana > However, > > as we > > have seen, there seems to be a wide disagreement on > > this as > > well. Some believe that the only way that > > satipatthana can > > arise and can be developed are through "formal" > > practice. Formal practice, if done correctly, can be enormously helpful. In my reading of the Suttas, it is essential for liberation. After all, I don't think Buddha included "right concentration" in the eightfold path without good reason! What does "right concentration" mean? According to Samyutta Nikaya (XLV.8): "There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." Does this mean that jhana is requisite to enlightenment? Well, from my reading of Abhidhammatha sangaha, supramundane absorption occurs only with concentration at the first jhana level or beyond. However, the Mahanidana sutta (and other scripture) supports the notion of the dry insight worker, but magga and phala still appear to require 1st jhana (at least for a moment). How can this level of concentration be developed without "formal practice"? On the other hand, formal practice is certainly no guarantee of wisdom arising. The practice can easily become just another object of clinging and vehicle for proliferation of views, and it commonly does. The question for me is not whether meditation is essential or not (at some point it IS essential, at other points it is not), but how to keep the practice in balance, so that wisdom arises in place of clinging to formations and sensations. Practice and reading and questioning all come into play. 3163 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:36am Subject: Re: Nirodha Dear Jim thanks for the information it is very interesting and useful. One ofthe things I have heard is that the term nirodha was understood in ancient vedic times to be a quality produced in a sacred fire when it was protected from the environment: i.e. wind, rain, leaves, twigs and insects, etc. This kind of flame was seen as a better flame to practice sacrifice with. It seemed to me that this was a simile for reducing the hinderances to practice, sensual desire, ill-will, etc. I liked the idea of Buddha using terms that had more than one dimension to their meaning. Remove the hinderances to the flame burning properly so you can see what fuel is causing the flame to be produced. remove that fuel and you remove the flame. Well I found in interesting anyway. thanks again for your help --- "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Antony, > > I take it that your query on the term 'nirodha' has something to do with an > interest in its etymology especially when I see that you divide the word up > into NI + RODHA. I'm not too familiar with the word myself so I have to > search about for some commentarial explanation. I have found a good starting > point for exploring this word with some useful information provided in the > Visuddhimagga (XVI.18) in reference to the term as used in the third noble > truth: dukkha-nirodha. In this passage we learn that NI has the sense of > 'absence' (abhaava). In a traditional grammar like the Saddaniiti, there is > a section on the prefixes (upasagga-s) that gives the various senses of each > prefix. For NI we find that 'abhaava' is listed as one of the 14 meanings > given there. > > RODH is derived from the verbal root RUDH. The Dhaatumaala (Garland of > Roots -- one of the three major sections of the Saddaniiti) gives its > meaning as: 'aavara.na' which does not exactly have a clear meaning for me. > The PED gives the meaning of aavara.na as: hindrance, obstruction which > might do for now. RUDH becomes RODH by way of the addition of the > primary affix 'a' (gha~n) which changes the root vowel U into O through > strengthening (gu.na). RUDH + A > RODHA. For the word RODHA the PED > gives: obstruction, stopping. In the next entry for the same word there is > given: bank, dam -- which one can see is connected to the first entry in > meaning and could very well have been included in the first entry. The > passage at Vism XVI.18 defines RODHA as 'caaraka'. ~Naa.namoli translates > RODHA as 'constraint' and 'caaraka' as 'prison'. In checking with Apte's > Sanskrit Dictionary, "bondage, fetter" could also be considered for > 'caaraka'. I'm not sure what word would best fit with 'absence of' and I'm > only thinking of something like 'absence of obstruction' for now. Ths same > passage also gives an alternative meaning for 'nirodha' as 'anuppaada' -- > non-arising. So now there is more to go on for further study. > > I hope you find these notes useful in your worthwhile investigation of the > term 'nirodha'. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > -----Original Message----- > > >I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > > >does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > > >I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't > >disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to > >the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the > >limitations of English. > > > >I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni > >meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > >embankment. > > > >I would be interested in your comments. > > > >antony 3164 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] music too Dear Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > i'm wondering: has anybody else > had > their desire to be entertained > and their urges to consume the arts > simply > evaporate? Something like that--I seldom go to a movie or listen to music anymore, unless I'm entertaining guests. When I do hear music I enjoy (or dislike!) it as much as I ever did, though it also seems somehow intrusive or distracting. Subjectively it seems that the desire to hear music just arises far less often than it used to. The desire to 'hear' (via the internet ususally) and consider the Dhamma arises much more frequently, as well as the desire for progress on the path. There's a lot of akusala in these desires too--however, hearing the Dhamma conditions present and future kusala, while listening to Leonard Cohen (an all-time favorite) or Chopin or Ry Cooder doesn't--wish it did! mike 3165 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: music too > in particular the falling away of music has been the must unusal...i never > thought i would live without being surrounded by all the music i thought i > "loved" so much....everything from gamelan to glam has just dropped > away...this has alienated some people with whom i used to share this > passion...but it's not that i now dislike music now, or that i am trying to > control any urges to put it on....the urges just don't arise anymore, music > is just not that important....gee maybe it sounds strange to some of the > list members too: i'm wondering: has anybody else had > their desire to be entertained > and their urges to consume the arts > simply > evaporate? Dear Bruce, Tell me about it! For me it had been anything from Placido Domingo to Ricky Martin but these days I've hardly touched my Bang&Olufsen although when I work on my translations I sometimes turn on my MP3 player program. Which doesn't mean I made a conscious effort not to enjoy music. For me it is better to know I still have a lot of kilesa that are not under my control, that not being a sotapanna I could probably break one of the five sila any time since only they could naturally not break them no matter the circumstances. This keeps me from feeling over confident and to be as mindful of realities as they really are as much as I can, and not rely for a special period of time during which 'I' could strive to keep kilesa from arising and to get rid of them. This I think is lobha, a hope, a wishful thinking, since all things arise from conditions, and knowledge of things as they really are are the sole conditions for right understanding, and studying them as they arise and appear at each instant to know their true characteristics the only way for panna to develop and grow strong enough to eradicate kilesa in its turn. Being afraid of one's own limitless kilesa is dosa, without one's realizing it. One should instead be brave enough to face one's imperfections and study them, and increase one's panna. The thing about kilesa, the more one knows them, the less strong they seem to be. Having passed your tobacco test, I think you might see what I meant. What is attachment to tobacco compared to attachment to the six senses, to life, to coming back to samsara? Without studying realities now, as they are and not before or after, how would one know that they are nama, or intelligence/dhatu that can experience something, such as seeing now, hearing at this moment, body sense, etc., and rupa, such as a dead body with the same attributes but no nama, or this hardness at our finger tips, or the gasses we breathe, or empty space in the universe? There are conditions for us to be where we are, we really have no choice in the matter, and the wonderful thing is that we can still accumulate panna if we had heard the Buddha's teachings. Of all religions he alone taught about the citta's arising and falling away in great rapidity so that even if one practiced samadhi there would still be no 'self' to do it but the citta which had been conditioned to do so. The seeing nama that arises now as you see this is not the self, it is under no one's control, and arises and falls away 17 times as fast as any rupa. Even the lobha arising while listening to great music is not permanent, it rises and falls away according to conditions also. But as long as lobha has not been completely eradicated it can arise again with the proper conditions, and throughout samsara we have accumulated more than enough of those. Panna of things as they really are, including lobha, could grow strong enough to eradicate all kinds of kilesa one day, when developed to the right strength. And to develop panna one must realize, even as one sits still doing nothing, that one still has all the kilesa accumulated through endless samsara that could arise at any time with the right conditions. Although this doesn't mean that one should give it a chance to arise by looking for sense pleasures to test oneself against, when conditions are there for you to be there there could also be conditions for sati to arise and study and accumulate panna. In fact with the right accumulations sati can arise anywhere. But if at present there are conditions for us to be in front of the computer and mindfulness doesn't arise even as we talk about realities, seeing, visible objects, thinking, thoughts, etc., one might have even less conditions for sati to arise at a movie thearter or even in 'formal practice'. So often the 'peace' of sitting still is so full of subtle lobha expecting panna to arise, without the study of realities that entails panna. And without panna one would not be able to get away from the six dvara that brings so much attachment and fear: lobha and dosa arise from moha. Amara 3166 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear dhd5, > -----Original Message----- > Formal practice, if done correctly, can be > enormously helpful. In my > reading of the Suttas, it is essential for > liberation. After all, I > don't think Buddha included "right concentration" > in the eightfold > path without good reason! I am glad that you are wise and learn from the different sources from the tipitika. > > What does "right concentration" mean? According > to Samyutta Nikaya > (XLV.8): "There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from Here again, what I have heard before is that the right concentration is the samadhi cetasikas rising with all kusala cittas. Jhana citta is certainly kusala, and hence is Samma Samadhi. However, samadhi arising with other kusala cittas (dana, sila, and satipatthana) are also samma. Notice here also that the Buddha addressed the bihku and NOT the householders. As mentioned in the previous message, the context of the sutta is very important about the kinds of life that are suitable to developing the kinds of kusala dhamma. > > Does this mean that jhana is requisite to > enlightenment? Well, from my > reading of Abhidhammatha sangaha, supramundane > absorption occurs only > with concentration at the first jhana level or beyond. > However, the Mahanidana sutta (and other > scripture) supports the > notion of the dry insight worker, but magga and > phala still appear to > require 1st jhana (at least for a moment). How > can this level of > concentration be developed without "formal practice"? Here, you mentioned that the suttas also mention the dry insight workers (can anybody provide a reference that details who the dry insight workers are). I believe that at the moment where the maggha appears, the citta is steadfast and firm equivalent to the citta at the uppana level, even if one is a dry insight worker. This is because sathipatthana is also samatha, i.e, free of akusala and possessing the calming qualities (at a different degree) of jhana [it has kaya-pasadhi and citta-pasadhi, for examples]. To reach maggha citta, Satipatthana must arise often. This frequency conditions the maggha citta to be as steadfast as the first-level jhana, although only for a few moments, when Nibhanna is the citta's aramana. Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice as you have defined it? I believe he became a sotapanna while listening to Buddha standing up. I don't believe the father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? What about other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? > > On the other hand, formal practice is certainly > no guarantee of wisdom > arising. The practice can easily become just > another object of > clinging and vehicle for proliferation of views, > and it commonly does. I think we agree on this. > The question for me is not whether meditation is > essential or not (at > some point it IS essential, at other points it is > not), but how to > keep the practice in balance, so that wisdom > arises in place > of clinging to formations and sensations. > Practice and reading and > questioning all come into play. As we have gone over repeatedly, for the benefits of ourselves and others, this is the key difference among many of us. There are those of us who maintain that when sati-panna arises cognizing the paramatha-dhamma, there are benefits. There is no need to balance, to coerce, to enforce, and to seek suitable conditions. And there are some of us who believe in some degrees of controls (some may believe in controls so subtle that they don't even know it). kom 3167 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:53pm Subject: Re: music too Thanks for the great personal comments, Bruce. I'm in the same boat: music, tasty food, and movies are the three most obvious. I pretty much gave up movies close to 10 years ago. Not that I am incapable of enjoying them now, but the volition to go out and see them is much weaker than it used to be. For example, the alternator went out in my car a week or so ago. The mechanic said he could have a new one installed for me within an hour and half. I haven't been to a movie for a few years (except for one or two kid movies per year), so with the big, 10-plex movie theater right next door, I thought, "What a great opportunity to see a movie!" Great opportunity indeed, but when I got to the ticket counter, an image flashed into my mind: me sitting in the dark room, enthralled with the flow of the picture and the music. Pop! The volition to watch the movie vanished. I walked a mile to the barber to get my haircut instead. I got back just when the car was finished. Music has been sort of the same thing. I still listen to music and even enjoy it immensely at times, but I rarely miss it when it is not present, and I rarely go out of my way too far to indulge. When occasion arises to enjoy, I do, and the enjoyment is deeper than it was before learning a little Dhamma. It is not because the attachment to the entertainment is stronger, but because moments of awareness arise during the entertainment, which always means a reduction in the intensity of suffering---a wonderful thing indeed! Non-Buddhists might find this discussion frightening and awful: "Not going to movies or listening to music?! What rigid, stodgy, idiots they are!" But I don't feel like that at all. I don't force myself to avoid these things, and I don't have an aversion for them, but usually I just find them a distraction, which is of course what they are designed to be. 3168 From: Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 0:27am Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice > as you have defined it? I believe he became a sotapanna > while listening to Buddha standing up. I don't believe the > father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he > became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? What about > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? Tipitaka does not say a word about the circumstances of their training. It is hard to believe that they had no "formal" practice in meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the canon indicates the importance of "meditation", and, yes, even jhana (if only for brief moments of magga and phala). > As we have gone over repeatedly, for the benefits of > ourselves and others, this is the key difference among many > of us. There are those of us who maintain that when > sati-panna arises cognizing the paramatha-dhamma, there are > benefits. There is no need to balance, to coerce, to > enforce, and to seek suitable conditions. And there are > some of us who believe in some degrees of controls (some may > believe in controls so subtle that they don't even know it). When sati-panna arises cognizing the paramattha-dhamma, there are benefits indeed. But there is certainly a need to seek suitable conditions and a need to balance the practice. There is plenty warning from Pali literature about the need to balance the indriya evenly. It is not as easy as it sounds. It requires much careful, undistracted attention to do this. It doesn't happen by listening or thinking or talking or writing. As Vibhanga so unambiguously states as a common theme (Chapter 16): "sabbapi samapannassa pañña bhavanamaya pañña" (The wisom of one who has attained is wisdom by means of development). This is not to say that listening or thinking or talking or writing are not helpful. They can be of tremendous help. If we have no opportunity to learn or practice meditation, then listening, thinking, talking, and writing about Dhamma is of course beneficial. If there is time and opportunity to practice meditation, then the listening, thinking, talking, and writing can be more easily put to the support of bhavana, development, meditation, wisdom. 3169 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 1:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Bruce and Dan, I understand what you're saying. I've made similar arguments myself. My present conclusion is that both of these seemingly antithetical views are correct. Here's how I see it: All kinds of formal practice arise and subside according to conditions, past and present, just like everything else. No one practicing or not-practicing--just phenomena arising and subsiding. To the extent that these phenomena are conditioned by (past accumulation of) real understanding, the practice is kusala. To the extent that they're conditioned by ignorance, it's akusala. If it's akusala and accompanied by pleasant feeling, and especially if accompanied by one-pointedness, it's far worse than no practice at all--it's extremely habit-forming and does not cultivate path-factors--in fact, it prevents their arising. This is why a meditation hall can be more dangerous than a karaoke bar. I think that a sure-fire way to tell if present practice is kusala or akusala is to discern very clearly whether or not there is the idea (more a feeling, I think) present that, "I'm doing this--I can do this--I should do this--I can control this--I will benefit from this" etc. My current working hypothesis is that any effort arising with this sense of self--no matter how subtle--is to that extent akusala and will have akusala results--which is why I think that right view is the first path-factor. So this is not to say that all the wonderful practices encouraged over and over by the Buddha are not good--it's just to say that they are only good if conditioned by true understanding and proceeding from right view. Otherwise, they are bad and can be incredibly pernicious. This 'I can practice and advance on the path' view (sakaya-ditthi) has been and remains the most daunting obastacle I've ever encountered in pursuit of the Buddhadhamma. I also think it's the most important one to overcome. I can only speak for 'myself'! Very glad to have you two on this list. mike 3170 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 2:24am Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > I think that a sure-fire way to tell if present > practice is kusala or akusala is to discern very > clearly whether or not there is the idea (more a > feeling, I think) present that, "I'm doing this--I can > do this--I should do this--I can control this--I will > benefit from this" etc. My current working hypothesis > is that any effort arising with this sense of self--no > matter how subtle--is to that extent akusala and will > have akusala results--which is why I think that right > view is the first path-factor. Thank you, Mike, for reminding me that "any effort arising with this sense of self" is akusala. > So this is not to say that all the wonderful practices > encouraged over and over by the Buddha are not > good--it's just to say that they are only good if > conditioned by true understanding and proceeding from > right view. Otherwise, they are bad and can be > incredibly pernicious. Yes, I understand. Thank you. As always, Alex 3171 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 9:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi, Kom - > Hi Howard, > > Welcome to the list. I hope you are enjoying your > conversations. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > > -----Original Message----- > > Well, there's not much for me to say in > > this regard. There is > > Mahayana, and there is Mahayana! ;-)) Parts of > > Mahayana seem to me to stray > > quite far from thebuddhadhamma. On the other > > hand, many of the Mahayana > > sutras, especially early ones, seem to > > legitimately present Dhamma, but with > > a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in > > the Pali suttas. And this > > slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate > > certain aspects of the Dhamma in > > the same way the good commentary will. > > The question is why study Mahayanna text or why study > Theravada texts? If we are scholars and study the text to > learn the historical significance or their differences, then > we must study them both in order to discern the differences. > However, if we study to learn the truth, then we must learn > from the sources most likely to allow us to see the truth. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I moved towards the Dhamma, philosophically, first through Advaita Vedanta, then onto Mahayana (a clear improvement, I believe ;-)), and then to the Pali suttas and Theravada (the best, I believe! ;-)) I see the Buddhadhamma most clearly and truly through the Theravada perspective. However, I have found that there is also much of value - for example, Nagarjuna - to be found in Mahayana. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > There are differences in terminology > > between Theravada and Mahayana > > that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. > > But once one finds > > appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem > > to fit well with Theravada. > > For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in > > Theravada and Mahayana are > > related, but different. The Mahayana notion of > > emptiness exists in Theravada, > > but is different from what Theravada means by > > emptiness. As I understand it, > > in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = > > impersonality (of all dhammas). In > > Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all > > dhammas, i.e., lack of > > independent identity/existence of all > > (conditioned) dhammas due to their > > dependently originated status and impermanence. > > This latter notion, of course > > also exists very much so in Theravada, though I > > don't think that it is > > exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. > > As you mentioned, the concepts (and of course, the > realities) of both ultimate realities and insubstantiality > both exist in the theravada texts. The concepts are pretty > much interlinked. Realities are impersonal partly because > they do not last; therefore, there is nothing that you can > identify to be mine, yours, ours, or theirs. What was > identified just a tiny moment ago as ours cease to exist a > long time ago before "we" identify it as such. Things are > insubstantial partly because of the same reason. Even > though there is something that really exists, but because of > its brief existence, it might as well not exist. Another > reason for things being impersonal and insubstantial is > because they are mostly conditioned. When its conditions > exist, a dhamma arise, regardless of whether or not we want > it to arise or not. When conditions exist, a dhamma doesn't > arise, regardless of whether we want it to arise or not. > How can you identify something as self when "you" cannot > control its rising or falling? > > Although the exact meaning of the words are different, > however, if it conveys the truth, there is nothing lost in > learning it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. --------------------------------------------------------- > > > One possible disconnection: Both Theravada > > and Mahayana consider > > nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, > > Theravada means by this that > > nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal > > (being empty of self or > > anything related to a self) and being empty of > > all conditions, whereas > > Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in > > the same sense as it considers > > all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as > > lacking of independent existence. > > In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and > > nibbana in some sense. > > This would be a really big difference. Nibhanna is not a > conditioned dhamma. It doesn't rise, it doesn't fall, and > it exists even when other dhammas are rising and falling > rapidly. In this particular way, you can certainly think of > it as being independent from other dhammas... > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I completely agree. There is an "unreality" (though *not* a nothingness or absolute non-existence) to the world of conditions, but nibbana is *real*. (I believe the Pali word is 'santo'?) ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3172 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 11:17am Subject: breath and nimitta hi all kom wrote: > After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath become nimita? I > don't think anybody has answered this question yet, although I don't > need an answer anyway) i probably don't need one, but curiousity compels me to look for one; and since you asked that question, i'll ask this one: *does* the breath even become nimitta? i found this rather interesting article on the topic: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm bruce 3173 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña --Dear Mike and Alex, (Jim - I have a comment for you at the bottom) A very useful post Mike. It made me break off my vacation briefly though ;( Just thought I should add some points (for technical accuracy). > Dear Mike, > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > I think that a sure-fire way to tell if present > > practice is kusala or akusala is to discern very > > clearly whether or not there is the idea (more a > > feeling, I think) present that, "I'm doing this--I can > > do this--I should do this--I can control this--I will > > benefit from this" etc. My current working hypothesis > > is that any effort arising with this sense of self--no > > matter how subtle--is to that extent akusala and will > > have akusala results--which is why I think that right > > view is the first path-factor. > > Thank you, Mike, for reminding me that "any effort arising with > this sense of self" is akusala. > Usually, as you say, this is simply akusala. However, there can still be many types of kusala with a subtle idea of self. What there can't be (and I know this is exactly what you are saying) is the development of the eightfold path. Thus the commentaries call even the jhanas (the normal types)as adding bricks in the wall of samsara. They too build up conditions for future births on and on. The results are highly pleasant but... The atthasalini says p526 of expositor (commentarial chapter)"The nine jhanas ....have not the path for object, neither for condition nor for dominant influence.." This sense of self isn't predominant during the actual moments of jhana or during other types of kusala(of the non-satipatthana types). But it can be a conditioning factor. One can see how pernicious it truly is. This of course doesn't mean don't try to develop jhana or other kusala; it just means be awake to the likelihood of self view hiding somewhere. If one doesn't know about all this one is sure not to see it. If that is the case one may live a very good life, develop much kusala but still not be breaking up the causes for samsara. Jim, VERY much appreciated your translation of that piece about meditating at the roots of trees - and the commmentary saying it was the increase of samattha and vipassana that is meant. sarah said it wasn't quite the piece mentioned by Dan though. Could you clarify exactly where your except came from (just so I don't make a misquote in the future). Robert > 3174 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Sarah, You wrote: >I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I think >the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta >152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). You're right. I was quoting from the wrong sutta as I couldn't find the passage with Ananda. >............................................... > Sace àkaïkhati: pañikkålaü ca appañikkålaü ca >tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvà upekkhako vihareyyaü sato >sampajàno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato >sampajàno. Evaü kho ànanda, ariyo hoti bhàvitindriyo. However, this is not the passage. A few lines up from the bottom you will see this line: "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha ..." -- M iii 302 With the exception of the name Ananda instead of Cunda, the rest of the line is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the commentarial interpretation at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason why this did not come up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the possibility of a vowel coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only looking for jhaayatha and that is why I only found two instances instead of three. >..................................................... >Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find that it does not quite agree with the commentary which includes both samatha and vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a better translation than 'Practice jhana'. Thanks for mentioning the MN 152 passage. I should say that I have only zeroed in on that particular line and have not tried reading the whole sutta to see how the line fits in with the context. Best wishes, Jim A. 3175 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 0:58pm Subject: meditate at the foot of trees:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Jim, Great, exactly what I wanted. I am getting very attached to your help Jim. I will send this to Nina too - she really likes to know about the difficult points and what the commentaries say. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > >I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I think > >the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta > >152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). > > You're right. I was quoting from the wrong sutta as I couldn't > find the > passage with Ananda. > > >............................................... > > Sace àkaïkhati: pañikkålaü ca appañikkålaü ca > >tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvà upekkhako vihareyyaü sato > >sampajàno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato > >sampajàno. Evaü kho ànanda, ariyo hoti bhàvitindriyo. > > However, this is not the passage. A few lines up from the > bottom you will > see this line: > > "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha > ..." -- M iii 302 > > With the exception of the name Ananda instead of Cunda, the > rest of the line > is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the commentarial > interpretation > at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason why this > did not come > up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the > possibility of a vowel > coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only looking > for jhaayatha > and that is why I only found two instances instead of three. > > >..................................................... > >Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I > >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses > >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! > > I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find that it > does not > quite agree with the commentary which includes both samatha > and > vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a better > translation than > 'Practice jhana'. > > Thanks for mentioning the MN 152 passage. I should say that I > have only > zeroed in on that particular line and have not tried reading > the whole sutta > to see how the line fits in with the context. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3176 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 1:04pm Subject: accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pañña Dear group, I am trying to stay away! can't control myself;) (what is worse I've picked up the habit of making smiling faces when I write) I started thinking about how different the eight-factored path is from any other type of kusala. I've been reading over the atthasalini a little recently. Thought you might like some references: I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth" It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of mundane Jhanas. The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on lokuttara (transendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momenatry flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of jhana]" Of course none of this means don't do kusala. It does indicate the profundity of satipatthana though- the path that leads to breaking up the wall. Robert 3177 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 1:55pm Subject: Re: accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pañña Dear Robert and all, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: >> Dear group, > >I am trying to stay away! can't control myself;) (what is worse > >I've picked up the habit of making smiling faces when I write) :-) :-) :-) Pardon me, Robert, because I cannot help not to tease you a little. >> Of course none of this means don't do kusala. It does indicate >> the profundity of satipatthana though- the path that leads to >> breaking up the wall. Indeed, the Teaching is deep, and difficult to realize. We can perform kusala deeds, but if we don't understand Realities, and mix them up with the Concepts, more conditions for staying in the samsara are built up. Thank you, Alex 3178 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 5:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] breath and nimitta Dear Bruce, i know very little about anapanasati. just a couple of comments though. The writer of this article quotes from the vimuttimagga This is not listed as one of the commentaries and tikas in burma, thailand or sri lanka. I think it was a book found only this century. This is not to say it is wrong but he is stepping outside the theravada tradition by saying it should be given more weight than the Visuddhimagga. He writes that the patisambhidhimagga dates 200 years after the Buddha died- not according to the theravada which includes it as part of the tipitika from the first council. Robert --- bruce wrote: > hi all > > kom wrote: > > After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath become > nimita? I > > don't think anybody has answered this question yet, although > I don't > > need an answer anyway) > > i probably don't need one, but curiousity compels me to look > for one; and > since you asked that question, i'll ask this one: *does* the > breath even > become nimitta? i found this rather interesting article on the > topic: > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm > > bruce 3179 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 6:07pm Subject: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha > ..." -- M iii 302 > > With the exception of the name Ananda instead of > Cunda, the rest of the line > is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the > commentarial interpretation > at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. Many thanks Jim, we were both on the right track but managed to slip a little! (You get an idea of how pathetic my pali is! I was very mystified at my quote because I couldn't match it to the English text and now I know why!) > >..................................................... > >Would you kindly check for me and give any > comments. I > >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses > >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! > > I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > that it does not > quite agree with the commentary which includes both > samatha and > vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > better translation than > 'Practice jhana'. Yes this is very interesting. I can't find jhaayatha in my big dictionary and would be interested to know any more about its meaning. When I read the sutta, it's clear to me that the Buddha is encouraging Ananda in the development of both samatha and vipassana (i.e. both kinds of bhavana) and so I asked the qu. as this was clear (to me). When people read the word 'meditate' it has too many different connotations to us all, according to our understanding of the teachings. Probably I'd prefer something like 'develop calm and insight, Ananda' with a footnote to the commentary note! > Thanks again and I hope we're not disturbing your own translation projects TOO much. Sarah 3180 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Usually, as you say, this is simply akusala. > However, there can > still be many types of kusala with a subtle idea of > self. Thanks for making this distinction. I remember reading now (in AIDL) that jhana-bhavana is highly kusala--assuming of course that jhana really IS being cultivated. > What > there can't be (and I know this is exactly what you > are saying) > is the development of the eightfold path. Though this was the general idea, I hadn't made the precise distinction--thanks again. By the way, I thought I'd post a few links to references in the suttas to 'formal meditation'. There are a lot more where these came from--these were just a few I could find on-line. The context of each is different, of course, and I'm not taking them out of context to suggest a kind of endorsement. I think they do make it clear, though, that the Buddha did teach 'formal meditation' (as well as 'going forth--they seem closely connected), in case anyone were in doubt. It also seems clear to me that, in these citations, he is not referring to either 'seclusion' or 'bhikkhus' in a figurative or metaphoric sense. One of these was actually addressed by the Buddha to a layman--but still referred to monks. ______________________________________________________ After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. Digha Nikaya 2 Samaññaphala Sutta The Fruits of the Contemplative Life http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html _______________________________________________________ "Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He chooses a remote lodging in the forest...or on a heap of straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the meal, he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him... Majjhima Nikaya 125 Dantabhumi Sutta The Discourse on the "Tamed Stage" Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn125.html _______________________________________________________ "...he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. Digha Nikaya 11 Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta To Kevatta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html _______________________________________________________ Here, Rahula, one goes into the forest, to the roots of a tree, or to an empty room, sits down cross-legged and holds the body upright, keeping mindfulness present. Maha Rahulovada Sutta translated by Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox http://www.wwzc.org/translations/mahaRahulovada.htm _______________________________________________________ Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. Kamma Sutta (Ud III.1) http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3.html _______________________________________________________ Now at that time Ven. Revata the Doubter was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, reflecting on [his] purification through the overcoming of doubt. Udana V.7 Revata Sutta About Revata http://www.vipassana.com/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-7.html _______________________________________________________ "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html _______________________________________________________ "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. Majjhima Nikaya 119 Kayagata-sati Sutta Mindfulness Immersed in the Body http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html Hope you're enjoying your holiday! mike 3181 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Bruce, Thanks for reposting this--I nearly missed it. Bing, indeed! mike --- bruce wrote: > robert: this is the most succinct restatement of > paticcasamupada i think i've ever read, re: > > > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the > fuel is craving > > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the > khandas). Once > > that fuel is no longer being added (upon > attainment of arahant) > > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). > > it's suddenly so obvious: > it's the craving after nama and rupa > which conditions their arising. > > cut the craving after nama and rupa, > cut ignorance of why they are not > worth craving... > > **and they don't arise** > > **bing!!** > > many thanks! > > bruce > 3182 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 9:15am Subject: Intro Hello, I am new to the group, my name is Mark Rasmus. I am doing some research into the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on elements in particular. Can anyone give me any insight into how the elements of Wind, fire, water and earth fit into the Buddhist scheme of things. Any links to any info on the net about this topic would be greatfully received. Warm regards...Mark 3183 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: Intro --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > Hello, > I am new to the group, my name is Mark Rasmus. > I am doing some research into the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on > elements in particular. Can anyone give me any insight into how the > elements of Wind, fire, water and earth fit into the Buddhist scheme > of things. > Any links to any info on the net about this topic would be greatfully > received. > Warm regards...Mark Dear Mark, Welcome! The following is an excerpt form the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part I in which might be of some interest to you. Others on the list might be able to provide other sources, Rupa-paramattha Rupa-paramattha is the reality that does not experience any arammana ; caused by conditions, it arises and falls away like the citta and cetasika. There are 28 kinds of rupa-paramattha and the meaning is not the same as the conventional rupa: a table being a rupa, a chair another, a book still another, for example. Among the 28 kinds of rupa, there is only one the citta experiences through the eye; it sees only one rupa: the object which appears to the eyes only. The other 27 rupa cannot be seen by citta but can be experienced elsewhere according to the type of the specific rupa, for example, sound can be experienced through the ears. Even though citta and cetasika cannot be seen with the eyes, like the 27 invisible rupa, but citta and cetasika are not rupa because they are paramattha-dhamma that experience arammana, while rupa is a paramattha-dhamma that does not experience arammana. Rupa-paramattha is a sankhara-dhamma (conditioned reality) that arises because of conditions. One rupa depends on another rupa to arise, therefore there can never be just one rupa arising alone, but a small group of rupa that arise together interdependently, impossible to separate or divide, called in Pali kalapa. Rupa is the infinitesimally tiny reality that arises and falls away rapidly at all times. A kalapa of rupa that arises lasts the amount of time 17 citta take to arise and fall away consecutively, which is very rapidly. The seeing and the hearing citta that appear as though they were simultaneous actually arise and fall away more than 17 moments of citta apart, therefore, the rupa that arises simultaneously with the seeing consciousness falls away before the citta that hears can arise. Each rupa is infinitesimal but when a group of rupa that arises and falls away together is divided minutely until it can no longer be separated. In the infinitesimal, indivisible group of rupa, there are at least 8 rupa together. These are call the eight avinibhoga-rupa: The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension The four mahabhuta-rupa arise interdependently and, therefore, are indivisible. They are the conditions or the basis on which another four rupa [upadaya-rupa] arise together with the mahabhuta-rupa and in the same kalapa: 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise These eight rupa cannot be separated. They form the smallest group of rupa that arises and falls away together very rapidly. The four mahabhuta-rupa alone, without the four upadaya-rupa (the rupa that are dependent on the mahabhuta-rupa to arise), cannot exist. The four mahabhuta-rupa are conditions for, by serving as base of, the upadaya-rupa that arise together with them in the same kalapa. But while the upadaya-rupa arise simultaneously in the same kalapa with the mahabhuta-rupa, the upadaya-rupa are not the conditions for the mahabhuta-rupa to arise. Therefore, the four mahabhuta-rupa arise together with the upadaya-rupa by having the mahabhuta-rupa as conditions, as base of the upadaya-rupa, while the latter arise simultaneously with the mahabhuta-rupa, dependent on the mahabhuta-rupa to arise, but are not the conditions for the mahabhuta-rupa to arise. There are altogether 28 rupa, 4 being mahabhuta-rupa, 24 upadaya-rupa. When the 4 mahabhuta-rupa do not arise, there can be none of the 24 upadaya-rupa. The 24 rupa can be explained from several perspectives. The present explanation is from the perspective of their interrelationship, to facilitate comprehension and memorization. When each group of rupa or kalapa arises, it does not fall away at once. Sabhava-rupa lasts as long as 17 instants of citta. 1. Upacaya-rupa is the rupa when it first arises. 2. Santati-rupa is the rupa at the moment it develops. 3. Jarata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it declines. 4. Aniccata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it falls away. Altogether they constitute the 4 lakkhana-rupa. These four lakkhana-rupa are asabhava-rupa. They are rupa without their own separate, distinct reality. But each of the four sabhava-rupa has four distinct characteristics, namely the moment it arises is not the moment it develops, and the moment of its deterioration is not the same as the moment of its development. In other words, upacaya-rupa and santati-rupa are rupa that have arisen but not yet fallen away, while the jarata-rupa and aniccata-rupa are rupa near, and at the moment of, falling away. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa = 12 rupa. Besides these there are: Pariccheda-rupa or akasa-rupa, which is between each kalapa, separating them. No matter how small or how large a rupa appears, it should be known that there is akasa-rupa between each kalapa punctiliously, allowing each kalapa to be separate from one another. If there were no pariccheda-rupa between each kalapa, all rupa would be connected, indivisible, non-dispersible. That even the rupa that appears large can be divided infinitesimally is because there is akasa-dhatu, or pariccheda-rupa, between each single kalapa. Therefore, the paricchedarupa is another asabhava-rupa without its own characteristics that arises separately; it arises between different kalapa that arise simultaneously. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa = 13 rupa. No matter where or in which plane the rupa arises, whether with or without life, it cannot be without these 13 rupa. For the rupa with life such as those of diverse entities or people in the planes of the five khandha, there are pasada-rupa that originates from kamma (volition or deeds resulting thereof) comprising: 1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa; the rupa with which visual object can come into contact 2. Sotappasada-rupa, the rupa with which sound can come into contact 3. Ghanappasada-rupa; the rupa with which smell can come into contact 4. Jivhappasada-rupa; the rupa with which taste can come into contact 5. Kayappasada-rupa; the rupa with which cold or heat (fire element), softness or hardness (earth element), tension and motion (wind element) can come into contact The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa = 18 rupa. As to the rupa with life, which arises together with citta, each citta must arise at the appropriate rupa according to the respective type of citta; the cakkhu-vinnana sees, it arises at the cakkhuppasada-rupa; sota-vinnana hears, it arises at the sotappasada-rupa; ghana-vinnana smells, it arises at the ghanappasada-rupa, jivha-vinnana tastes, it arises at the jivhappasada-rupa; kaya-vinnana experiences photthabba through the bodysense (the elements of earth, fire and wind), it arises at the kayappasada-rupa. Other citta besides these arise at a rupa called hadayarupa (the rupa where the citta arises). The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa = 19 rupa. Every kalapa of the rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, must be accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa. Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the other rupa accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa. Therefore the rupa of entities and people with life differ from those who are without. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa = 20 rupa. Entities and people differ generally as women and men because of two bhava-rupa: Itthibhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the feminine sex. Purisabhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the masculine sex. Each person would have one bhava-rupa or the other, namely itthibhava-rupa or purisabhava-rupa only, and some people have none, such as the brahma in the Brahma world, and those sexually deviant. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 Pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa = 22 rupa. For the rupa of entities and people to move, because of the citta arising with it, there must a rupa conditioned by the citta also, if there were only rupa arising from kamma, there can be no movement or function for the rupa. For the rupa of the body to move and function, there must be three vikara-rupa as follows: Lahuta-rupa is the state of lightness, non-heaviness of the rupa such as the physical conditions of the people without illness. Muduta-rupa is the state of malleability, non-stiffness of the rupa as in well-tanned leather. Kammannata-rupa is the state of task worthiness of the rupa as in well molten gold. The three vikara-rupa are asabhava-rupa, without their own separate, distinct reality. They constitute the special adaptable qualities of the mahabhuta-rupa, which is light, malleable and task worthy. The three vikara-rupa are rupa that arise in entities and people only. Rupa without life cannot have the three vikara-rupa. The three vikara-rupa are inseparable: in whichever kalapa there is lahuta-rupa, there must also be muduta-rupa and kammannata-rupa. Besides, when the citta wants to move any part of the body, that part must have vikara-rupa that arise from utu (equanimity of the element of cold and heat) as condition and also have rupa that arise from ojarupa (nutrition) as condition. Otherwise even if citta desires movement, the rupa cannot move, as in people with paralysis, luxation or weaknesses. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa = 25 rupa. When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals according to the citta's cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, or special state of the rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or the demeanor. For example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and prohibitively. If the citta does not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would not arise. Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, or emitting sounds in order to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to arise and come into contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can be no sonic emissions. Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that arise fall away with the citta. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa +1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa + 2 vinnatti-rupa = 27 rupa. Some sources group the three vikara-rupa and two vinnatti-rupa as the 5 vikara-rupa. Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa which comes into contact with the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, radio and television sounds. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa + 2 vinnatti-rupa + sadda-rupa = 28 rupa. The number of rupa differs in some sources, such as the Atthasalini Rupakandha, Pakinnakakatha, where there are 25 rupa, grouping the elements of earth, fire and wind together as photthabbayatana (the rupa that comes into contact with the Kayappasada-rupa), plus one hadaya-rupa equals 26 rupa. When a rupa arises, it arises simultaneously with a number of rupa to form a kalapa. Thus [the rupa] differs according to its type; also there are several classifications of the 28 rupa which will be discussed further in the appendix. (End quote) If you would like to discuss or comment on the above we would love to hear from you, Amara 3184 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 0:40pm Subject: Re: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Sarah, Jim: >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find >> that it does not >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both >> samatha and >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a >> better translation than >> 'Practice jhana'. Sarah: >Yes this is very interesting. I can't find jhaayatha >in my big dictionary and would be interested to know >any more about its meaning. 'Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. In the PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will find two entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to burn, to be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and vipassanaa" in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that helps to clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -- MA i 195. >When I read the sutta, it's clear to me that the >Buddha is encouraging Ananda in the development of >both samatha and vipassana (i.e. both kinds of >bhavana) and so I asked the qu. as this was clear (to >me). When people read the word 'meditate' it has too >many different connotations to us all, according to >our understanding of the teachings. Probably I'd >prefer something like 'develop calm and insight, >Ananda' with a footnote to the commentary note! >> >Thanks again and I hope we're not disturbing your own >translation projects TOO much. I have put the project of translating the first part of the Patthana commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too much of my spare time reading and responding to email messages. I'm also occupied with studying the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of 2000 Sanskrit roots, and wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali online. Best wishes, Jim A. 3185 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 1:02pm Subject: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña > I have put the project of translating the first part of the Patthana > commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too much of my spare time > reading and responding to email messages. I'm also occupied with studying > the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of 2000 Sanskrit roots, and > wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali online. Dear Jim, That sounds like quite a load, but I must say I really regret the Patthana part, I really looked forward to that! Wishing there were more hours in a day, and that you succeed in all your endeavors, Amara 3186 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 1:48pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Sarah, Thanks for many useful comments in your reply. > -----Original Message----- > There must be plenty of right intellectual > understanding first. In other words, if we have never > heard the Buddha's teachings, there will be no > condition for the development of Satipatthana. There > will be no awareness of realities as anatta. Even if > we have read some of the Tipitaka or listened to a > Buddhist teacher, if there has been no skilful > considering of realities as nama(mental phenomena) and > rupa (physical phenomena which don't experience), the > same applies. Can there be no Satipathanna without hearing Buddha's teaching? I don't mean the "development" of Satipatthana, but just one brief moment of Satipatthana without knowing what it is? I can't see how you can "develop" Satipatthana without knowing what Sati is or what its benefits are (and for that, you definitely need to hear Buddha's teachings). But can there not be moments of Satipatthana for someone who haven't heard Buddha's teachings? > When we have the idea of 'situations' there is no > understanding at that time because these are concepts. I have no doubt that to reach maggha, one will need to have satipatthana arising frequently in most, if not all, the different situations in their lives. However, aren't there "situations" that condition Satipathanna to arise, even if the "situations" may vary from one person to another (not uniform as might have been suggested by some). I distinctively remember some member in this group mentioning that considering dhamma, and posting to this list are conditions for the person for Satipatthana to arise. > Regardless of whether one is in 'formal practice', the > cinema or the Californian surf, there are realities > which have to be understood correctly intellectually > and then directly as they appear, one at a time. Again, when one's memory about everything real just being a dhatu is still not firm and prevelent, isn't it possible that the conditions causing the arising of such memories (such as reading about dhammas) be indirect conditions of satipatthana? > Consideration of dhamma is essential. Listening or > reading (as we're doing here) in order to consider is > essential. All kinds of kusala can be a support > condition. However, it depends on different > accumulations how generous someone is and whether, for > example, any samatha has been developed. We know that > some in the Buddha's time attained jhanas and some > didn't. Some people were generous and some were > stingy, but they could all develop satipatthana if > they had heard about realities and saw the value in > developing satipatthana. You are saying here that the conditions for Satipatthan that I am asking about would vary from one person or another. There is no fixed answer that applies to everybody that says, "doing this, satipatthana is more likely to arise". Is this what you are saying? > > Akusala (unwholesomeness) of any kind cannot be a > direct condition for satipatthana. Akusala Would you explain in more details about "direct" and "indirect" conditions? > When there is awareness of an akusala citta or > cetasika(mental factor), there is no akusala at that > moment. Desire leads to more desire regardless of the > object. Desire for sati is definitely a hindrance even > though the desire can be the object of sati at another > moment. It totally makes sense to me why desire leads to more desire, or why dana leads to more dana. When something arises, it also accumulates as anusaya. The more accumulation, the more likely it can be easily agitated and arises. The one argument that I still don't fully understand, although repeated to me many times by serveral people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance for sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no sati, but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, the desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can be a indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire for sati to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija believing something is sati while it is not. On the other hand, if there is a firm understanding as well as a firm direct panna of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a direct hindrance to sati to arise? I can certainly understand how frequent satipatthana can be a condition for less desire for sati to arise. This is because when it becomes firmer that all realities are conditioned, and that desire for sati can only be a weaker condition for satipatthana (object-predominance, aramana, as you have mentioned), unlike kusala dhammas which can be much stronger conditions, that the desire wouldn't arise so often. > Avijja > (ignorance) is very tricky however, as Robert has > discussed. It's so easy to have just a teeny hankering > for that sati and to be trying to direct it rather > than just being aware of whatever nama or rupa appears > without minding what or when. I can see this point how Avijja could fool somebody into believing that they are having sati while they are not. Desire for sati certainly are very strong condition for Avijja. kom 3187 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 2:47pm Subject: Re: Intro Hello Amara, I found the info very interesting, the parts that where in English that is. Where can I get some translation on some of these words like rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. I have studied universal laws through the western traditions for most of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of the elements which as everyone would know are the building blocks of creation and the underlying structure of penetrating into the universal laws. This was one of the first things I was taught when I entered the path of light. Since there is only one true universal law, we are looking at the same thing through a different cultural perpective. I am very drawn to the Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers the cultivator. From what I have seen on my current level of understanding, it is a very pure path. Most of the western traditions that I have looked at have lost there purity due to cultural saturation into the systems. This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the last 13 years. Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? regards.....Mark > The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising > 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is > soft or hard > 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, > saturates or coheres > 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is > hot or cold > 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion > or tension > > If you would like to discuss or comment on the above we would love to > hear from you, > > Amara 3188 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 2:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Intro mark you might find this handy for quick pali reference http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html and in-depth articles beginning here may also help http://www.dhammastudy.com/engindex.html the writings are graded, so if what you're reading seems too technical, you can always drop back a level...i know i'm constantly going back to the "beginner" section... bruce At 06:47 2001/02/04 -0000, you wrote: > Hello Amara, > I found the info very interesting, the parts that where in English > that is. Where can I get some translation on some of these words like > rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. > I have studied universal laws through the western traditions for most > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of the elements which > as everyone would know are the building blocks of creation and the > underlying structure of penetrating into the universal laws. This was > one of the first things I was taught when I entered the path of light. > Since there is only one true universal law, we are looking at the same > thing through a different cultural perpective. I am very drawn to the > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers the cultivator. > From what I have seen on my current level of understanding, it is a > very pure path. Most of the western traditions that I have looked at > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation into the systems. > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the last 13 years. > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? > regards.....Mark > > > The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising > > 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is > > soft or hard > > 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that > soaks, > > saturates or coheres > > 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that > is > > hot or cold > > 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion > > or tension > > > > > If you would like to discuss or comment on the above we would love > to > > hear from you, > > > > Amara > 3189 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:09pm Subject: Re: Intro > I found the info very interesting, the parts that where in English > that is. Where can I get some translation on some of these words like > rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. Dear Mark, The same book I mentioned before also explained the terms a little earlier in the chapter from which I quoted the passage I sent you, in this section: The Four Paramattha-dhamma Citta is the reality preeminent in experiencing that which appears such as seeing and hearing. There are altogether 89 types of citta or 121 in specifics. Cetasika is another kind of reality that arises concurrently with a citta experiences the same object, falls away at the same instant, and arises at the same location. Each cetasika has distinct characteristics and functions according to its type. There are altogether 52 types of cetasika. Rupa is the reality that is not consciousness such as colors, sounds, smells and tastes. There are altogether 28 types of rupa. Nibbana is the reality that eradicates defilements and ends sufferings. There are no conditions for Nibbana it, therefore, does not arise or fall away. (End quote.) This book is rather long and contains another section on the rupa, in the Appendix: Rupa, chapter also to be found in the same website, advanced section, 'Summary...' Anumodana in your studies, and hope you find what you are looking for, Amara 3190 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:12pm Subject: Re: Intro > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? > regards.....Mark Dear Mark, I just saw that I had missed another question, but I'm not sure what do you mean by this? Amara 3191 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Mike This is a very interesting post. You have raised questions here that we all need to consider. --- "m. nease" wrote: > By the way, I thought I'd post a few links to > references in the suttas to 'formal meditation'. > There are a lot more where these came from--these > were > just a few I could find on-line. The context of > each > is different, of course, and I'm not taking them out > of context to suggest a kind of endorsement. I > think > they do make it clear, though, that the Buddha did > teach 'formal meditation' (as well as 'going > forth--they seem closely connected), in case anyone > were in doubt. It also seems clear to me that, in > these citations, he is not referring to either > 'seclusion' or 'bhikkhus' in a figurative or > metaphoric sense. One of these was actually > addressed > by the Buddha to a layman--but still referred to > monks. Just a quick preliminary comment on the passages you have helpfully given. Apart from the context of the particular occasion and audience (as you have mentioned), there is also the context of the whole body of suttas to consider, not to mention of course the abhidhamma also. The suttas contain many shades of exhortation, admonition and advice by the Buddha. When reading a particular sutta it is important to figure out whether the Buddha is saying, for example, one or other of the following- I exhort you to do X Doing X will be for your benefit Doing X will lead to enlightenment If X is done, Y will be the result The conditions for achieving X are Y More if X will lead to more of Y When doing X, then ... [eg. ... if Y is done then Z will be the result or something else again. At a brief glance, I think that most of the excerpts you have given fall into the first limb of the last-mentioned category (ie. when a person is doing/has done X). The actual ‘meat’ of the piece will be found in what follows. In other words, the Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these passages that we should all be doing X. Much may depend on the translator’s perspective of the dhamma. Those convinced of the need for a formal practice are much more likely to translate passages such as these in a way consistent with that view. It is sometimes necessary to go back to the original Pali to get the true meaning. Like every aspect of the Dhamma, reading the suttas is not as straight forward as at first sight it appears. The subtleties are easy to misinterpret (one reason for this would no doubt be the difference in levels of understanding of the Buddha’s audience then as compared to us now – at least in my view!). Looking forward to others’ comments on these passages. Jon ______________________________________________________ > After his meal, returning from his alms round, he > sits > down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and > brings mindfulness to the fore. > > Digha Nikaya 2 > Samaññaphala Sutta > The Fruits of the Contemplative Life > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html > _______________________________________________________ > > "Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a > forest, > at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a > wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest > haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He > chooses > a remote lodging in the forest...or on a heap of > straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the > meal, > he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, > having made mindfulness rise up in front of him... > > Majjhima Nikaya 125 > Dantabhumi Sutta > The Discourse on the "Tamed Stage" > Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn125.html > _______________________________________________________ > "...he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the > shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside > cave, > a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a > heap > of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms > round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his > body > erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. > > Digha Nikaya 11 > Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta > To Kevatta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html > _______________________________________________________ > Here, Rahula, one goes into the forest, to the roots > of a tree, or to an empty room, sits down > cross-legged > and holds the body upright, keeping mindfulness > present. > > Maha Rahulovada Sutta > > translated by Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei > and Tory Cox > > http://www.wwzc.org/translations/mahaRahulovada.htm > _______________________________________________________ > Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far > from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body > held > erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that > were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, > without suffering. > > Kamma Sutta (Ud III.1) > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3.html > _______________________________________________________ > Now at that time Ven. Revata the Doubter was sitting > not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his > body held erect, reflecting on [his] purification > through the overcoming of doubt. > > Udana V.7 > Revata Sutta > About Revata > > http://www.vipassana.com/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-7.html > _______________________________________________________ > "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the > wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty > building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, > holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to > the > fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he > breathes out. > > Majjhima Nikaya 118 > Anapanasati Sutta > Mindfulness of Breathing > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > _______________________________________________________ > "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to > the > wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty > building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, > holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to > the > fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he > breathes out. > > Majjhima Nikaya 119 > Kayagata-sati Sutta > Mindfulness Immersed in the Body > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html 3192 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dan I have enjoyed your recent posts and the discussion that has ensued. Just a couple of comments for further discussion. --- wrote: > Formal practice, if done correctly, can be > enormously helpful. In my > reading of the Suttas, it is essential for > liberation. After all, I > don't think Buddha included "right concentration" in > the eightfold > path without good reason! Are you not equating samatha with formal practice? I do not find any support for the ides of a ‘formal practice’ in the passages you have quoted or referred us to. > What does "right concentration" mean? According to > Samyutta Nikaya > (XLV.8): "There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities -- enters & > remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born > from withdrawal, > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With > the stilling of > directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains > in the second > jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of awareness > free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal > assurance. With > the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, > mindful, & fully > alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in > the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the > abandoning of > pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance > of elation & > distress -- he enters & remains in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither pleasure nor > pain. This is called right concentration." The question is, is the Buddha saying here that the practice of samatha is a precondition for developing understanding? Or is he addressing a particular audience who has attained, or has the potential for attaining in this lifetime, a high level of samatha? > Does this mean that jhana is requisite to > enlightenment? Well, from my > reading of Abhidhammatha sangaha, supramundane > absorption occurs only > with concentration at the first jhana level or > beyond. > However, the Mahanidana sutta (and other scripture) > supports the > notion of the dry insight worker, but magga and > phala still appear to > require 1st jhana (at least for a moment). How can > this level of > concentration be developed without "formal > practice"? Yes, magga and phala citta are accompanied by concentration equivalent to the level of jhana (there is explanation of this in Visuddhimagga that is worth looking at). But it is a big leap to say that this means there must be a formal practice or even the development of samatha as something separate and distinct from satipatthana. Should we not be asking instead the question, how does one begin to develop the understanding that leads eventually to magga citta (or, if jhana rather than magga citta is the goal, to jhana citta)? Jon 3193 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Intro Dear Mark, Yes, you've come to the right place to ask questions and look forward to talking to you later when I have a little more time. In addition to Amara's and Bruce's suggestions, I also highly recommend you look at 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina Van Gorkom which luckily (for you) Amara and colleagues have recently adding to the same website Bruce refers you to. I think it will answer many of your questions, but not overnight!!! Please tell us anything more you care to about your research project and yourself. Thanks, Sarah --- bruce wrote: > mark you might find this handy for quick pali > reference > http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html > > and in-depth articles beginning here may also help > http://www.dhammastudy.com/engindex.html > > the writings are graded, so if what you're reading > seems too technical, you > can always drop back a level...i know i'm constantly > going back to the > "beginner" section... > > bruce > > > At 06:47 2001/02/04 -0000, you wrote: > > Hello Amara, > > I found the info very interesting, the parts that > where in English > > that is. Where can I get some translation on some > of these words like > > rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. > > I have studied universal laws through the western > traditions for most > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge > of the elements which > > as everyone would know are the building blocks of > creation and the > > underlying structure of penetrating into the > universal laws. This was > > one of the first things I was taught when I > entered the path of light. > > Since there is only one true universal law, we are > looking at the same > > thing through a different cultural perpective. I > am very drawn to the > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it > offers the cultivator. > > From what I have seen on my current level of > understanding, it is a > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions > that I have looked at > > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation > into the systems. > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the > last 13 years. > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these > base energies? > > regards.....Mark > > > > > The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, > presiding rupa) comprising > > > 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : > the rupa which is > > > soft or hard > > > 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): > the rupa that > > soaks, > > > saturates or coheres > > > 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): > the rupa that > > is > > > hot or cold > > > 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): > the rupa of motion > > > or tension > > > > > > > > If you would like to discuss or comment on the > above we would love > > to > > > hear from you, > > > > > > Amara > > 3194 From: Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 7:01pm Subject: Re: Nirodha yes thanks for posting this Robert i have heard that the principles, qualities and processes of fire was seen as of critical importance to vedic people. Buddha was aware of this as he was born and lived as a member of that community. I have an interest in his use of the way Buddha used the language and religious and spiritual practices of the times to communicate the Dharma. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > --- <> wrote: > > My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term > Nirvana > where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of > describing > qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these > terms > they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was > > brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of > the Vedic tradition at > the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that > flame was > produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these > metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them. > Nirodha > also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am > interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was > imparting > to them in using this term.>>>>>>> > > Dear Antony, > The metaphor of fire is a very good one to help us of today-not > just those ancient ones- understand nibbana. > There are only 4 types of paramattha dhamma (Fundamental > elements ). These are citta cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The > first three can be classified in different ways- such as the > khandas- aggregates, dhatus- elements, ayatanas-sensefields, Or > as simply nama and rupa. These fundamental phenomena are in us > and around us- there is nothing else. They arise and pass away > so fast that we have the illusion that "we' exist, that there > are things that last such as cars and computers. This is a deep > perversion of perception that is so hard to overcome. > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). > Robert > 3195 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:34am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom and Sarah, Between the two of you I'm totally out of my depth, but something Kom asked about was something I've thought about too: --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > The one argument that I still don't fully > understand, although repeated to me many times by > serveral > people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance > for > sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no > sati, > but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, > the > desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can > be a > indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire > for sati > to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija > believing > something is sati while it is not. On the other > hand, if > there is a firm understanding as well as a firm > direct panna > of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a > direct > hindrance to sati to arise? Could the problem be that we're using 'desire' to refer to more than one cetasika? e.g.: "Just as, monks, the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the sun, so possession of desire (chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the ariyan eightfold way." SN5.45.4.2.3, From 'Cetasikas', p 116. Chanda was also mentioned in one of the suttas recently posted by Kom (thanks for both of those and for your comments, Khun Kom): "...There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire [chanda] arises..." Majjhima Nikaya 95 Canki Sutta With Canki http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn95.html Does this have any bearing? mike 3196 From: <> Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana Thanks for the comments, Jon. Sometimes it seems like many comments on the board discourage people from meditating. This seems contrary to so much that I have read in the suttas (misinterpreted?), learned from meditation teachers (heretics?), and experience (deluded?), that I can't fathom why anyone in this group would discourage meditators. It must be accidental and the tone really isn't intended. Or maybe it's just that I am hearing wrong and the tone isn't really one of discouragement. Or perhaps my practice has not brought me enough bitter fruits yet to realize how wrong it is to practice meditation. Didn't Buddha encourage people to meditate? Is there anything in the suttas that says something like: "Don't meditate. It is no better than going to shows because satipatthana can arise at any time. Besides, there's nothing you can do to walk on the path. If you are destined to follow the path, then you will. Otherwise, you won't. Go ahead and read about the Dhamma instead of meditating. Maybe in some future birth your destiny might change. Good luck (because that's really all there is too it)! And try not to get depressed!" I haven't read anything like that in the suttas, but I have only read the Majjhima Nikaya, Udana, Itivuttaka, Dhammapada, and half of Digha Nikaya (and a few assorted other things). Maybe I'm just missing something, but more likely the tone of the anti-meditation posts is getting warped from the translation from posters' brains, to board, to my brain. Why not meditate? 3197 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > The suttas contain many shades of exhortation, > admonition and advice by the Buddha. When reading a > particular sutta it is important to figure out > whether > the Buddha is saying, for example, one or other of > the > following- > > I exhort you to do X > Doing X will be for your benefit > Doing X will lead to enlightenment > If X is done, Y will be the result > The conditions for achieving X are Y > More if X will lead to more of Y > When doing X, then ... [eg. ... if Y is done then Z > will be the result > > or something else again. Very good--you're right, of course. > At a brief glance, I think that most of the excerpts > you have given fall into the first limb of the > last-mentioned category (ie. when a person is > doing/has done X). The actual ‘meat’ of the piece > will be found in what follows. In other words, the > Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these > passages > that we should all be doing X. Not at all. These audiences (as I think Khun Kom pointed out) have some specifics in common. > Much may depend on the translator’s perspective of > the > dhamma. Those convinced of the need for a formal > practice are much more likely to translate passages > such as these in a way consistent with that view. > It > is sometimes necessary to go back to the original > Pali > to get the true meaning. So do you think that the idea that 'formal meditation' existed in the Buddha's day may be entirely the result of mistranslations? Or that the 'formal meditation' mentioned was always and exclusively samatha bhavana, and that passages suggesting otherwise are mistranslations? > Like every aspect of the Dhamma, reading the suttas > is > not as straight forward as at first sight it > appears. True--'deep, subtle, hard to grasp', etc... > The subtleties are easy to misinterpret (one reason > for this would no doubt be the difference in levels > of > understanding of the Buddha’s audience then as > compared to us now – at least in my view!). Maybe so... Thanks for your comments... mike 3198 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 7:13am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Mike, Thanks for the pointing out the possible misinterpretation of the word desire. When I say "desire" in my message, I strictly meant "lobha", which can be only akusala. (Chanda, on the other hand, can be kusala, akusala, or neither. While there is lobha, Chanda also arises with it. When there is sati, chanda also arises with it.) kom > -----Original Message----- > > The one argument that I still don't fully > > understand, although repeated to me many times by > > serveral > > people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance > > for > > sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no > > sati, > > but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, > > the > > desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can > > be a > > indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire > > for sati > > to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija > > believing > > something is sati while it is not. On the other > > hand, if > > there is a firm understanding as well as a firm > > direct panna > > of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a > > direct > > hindrance to sati to arise? > 3199 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 8:21am Subject: Re:Intro > >Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 07:12:29 -0000 > From: "Amara" >Subject: Re: Intro > > > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? > > regards.....Mark > > >Dear Mark, > >I just saw that I had missed another question, but I'm not sure what >do you mean by this? > >Amara > > Hello Amara, Most systems of enlightenment have methods of manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and earth. Manifesting the fire principle for instance increases heat in the body as well as strengthening the will power. It is also good for learning to detach from emotions ruled by this element. Each element has its span of control within the emotional self. Manifesting and mastering each element leads to detachment of those related emotions. There are also many metaphysical tricks that come as a byproduct of this training which are considered traps for those without pure intention so they cannot develop further if they become to attached to these metaphysical tricks or miracles as some people put them. But they are not miracles, just mind working in unison with universal laws. Warm regards.......Mark