4200 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah) Dan, --- Dan wrote: > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly > cheerful. Glad to hear it. I would have said, 'mindfulness keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no one 'noting''--does this agree with your understanding? > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I > just take up the > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat. > When the > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion > starts arising more > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before > sleep. These unusual > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca, > and by tomorrow or > the next day, they are bound to subside for some > time. Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I THINK). I find this makes illness much more bearable, too. Do you think this kind of reflection is practice of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or paññati? (This is not a rhetorical question). If it is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both, (seemingly) intermingled? I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi meditation. Thanks and good health to you (and all of us), mike 4201 From: Dan Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:31am Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah) Hi Mike, I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. And I must admit, I do have a preference for the current physical conditions--just a little more evidence that I am not an arahat. Then again, even Buddha had preferences for certain physical conditions. There's one interesting story along these lines from the Vinaya, I believe. [I might look it up later, but not just yet]. A gathering of bhikkhu's was getting a bit boisterous. Buddha decided to leave the gathering to meditate in the forest, away from all the hubbub. I've always wondered about this because without the fetters of craving and aversion, where does this preference come from? Apparently, even for Buddha's and arahats, there is still preference for certain physical conditions. The difference is that if those conditions are not available for them, it's no big deal. If those conditions aren't available for us, then we can get a little whiny about it. Dan: > > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly > > cheerful. Mike: > Glad to hear it. I would have said, 'mindfulness > keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no > one 'noting''--does this agree with your > understanding? Tee hee! I don't see any problem whatsoever using everyday language in conversation and don't see much point in "overriding normal usage." > > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I > > just take up the > > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat. > > When the > > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion > > starts arising more > > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before > > sleep. These unusual > > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca, > > and by tomorrow or > > the next day, they are bound to subside for some > > time. > > Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I > THINK). I find this makes illness much more bearable, > too. Do you think this kind of reflection is practice > of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or > paññati? Great question, Mike. The reflections are clearly paññati. The noting that the sickness is not going to last is just a diversionary tactic to keep from whining. Such diversionary tactics, although certainly not the BEST way to do things, do help. In the Vitakka-santhana sutta (MN 20) Buddha discusses techniques of removing undesirable evil thoughts. The first one is to replace the evil thoughts by their desirable and beneficial opposites. In this case, the evil whininess that can be so tempting during sickness is in no small measure due to identifying with the unpleasant sensations and wrongly understanding them to be permanent. Reflection that they are not helps to remove the Self from the sensations. It helps! [NOTE: MN 20 is nominally about removing distracting thoughts when trying to attain jhana. But the same tactics seem to make sense for more everyday experiences too, don't they? Another example of the "depth of teaching" (Mahanidana sutta commentary)] What helps even more is bare observation of less abstract things (practice of insight). For example, the suffering associated with chills (which are fairly unpleasant things!) can be tremendously reduced by establishing mindfulness of the body: "The body is shivering;" on the vedana: "Unpleasant sensations;" On the mental contents: "Aversion." How is mindfulness established if there is no 'who' to direct the establishing? First, chanda incites sankappa and viriya, which bring consciousness to the vicinity of the "four foundations." Then, samma ditthi checks the attention. Wise attention is allowed to reproduce, and unwise attention is not. In this way, moments of wise attention expand to the capacity allowed by the degree to which samma ditthi and samma samadhi and samma vayama that have been developed. > If it > is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both, > (seemingly) intermingled? Partly it is a defensive mechanism, but it is a defense against aversion. So, if it is opposed to aversion, does that not make it rooted in non-aversion? It seems so, but it is not so clear. > I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various > kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi > meditation. …and very good thing to do at that. Keep us posted. Dan 4202 From: Num Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:45am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] : Sanna Hi all, Since someone has already brought up the issue on memory, sanna. Let me ask and share with the group the definition, manifestation, character and may be function of sanna. Just my curiosity. I have read that sanna is limitless, means sanna can recognize anything, paramattha, nibbana, pannatti, jhana, etc. As I asked before about arammana of sanna in bhavanga citta, vinnana-citta, pathisandhi-citta or cuti-citta. Let me throw in my worldly knowledge, two basic kinds of memory, procedural implicit (procedural) memory and explicit memory. Briefly, explicit memory involves conscious recollection; implicit memory involves the cognitive use of previous experiences without conscious recognition. We have to think about a friend's phone number but we do not have to think how to drive a car, one we can do it we can just do it. I have read about 24-paccaya during my vaccation, (thanks for an updating K.Amara.) When I read about upanissaya-paccaya, it sounds like a kind of skill or memory. How can we explain or approach upanissaya-paccaya by sanna term or vice versa? Let me cut and paste from dhammastudy.com, Summary of the 24 Paccaya : <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 5. Upanissaya-paccaya Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for other realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is paccaya by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise concurrently with it. There are three upanissaya-paccaya: 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that is arising in the present. When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and attachment in the wrong view as strong arammana the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a strong base by being the arammana. For example, in the instant there is pleasure and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person regards as right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in the wrong view. The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi. The last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or bhavanga to arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is a strong birthplace for daily, habitually performed or accumulated realities. When the lobha-mula-citta has arisen and fallen away, the realities that had arisen with the citta would accumulate in the subsequent citta. Having thought and done something, there would be accumulated strength to make the same kind of lobha-mula-citta arise again. Besides the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta, or the lobha-mula-citta arising with wrong view, one could see from real life that each person takes pleasure in or has different habits concerning what is seen through the eyes, sound that is heard through the ears, different smells, tastes, clothing, objects, utensils, stories or even fun and games. This is because there has been that satisfaction before, accumulated liking for such things, and having done them, they would be pakatupanissaya-paccaya: the usual strong birthplace for what has been done and accumulated. The Buddha manifested the Jataka or stories from the past when such and such events took place and the accumulations of the persons in the long time past. Not only do each of us think, say, do, like or dislike certain things in this lifetime; but we must have done, thought, said, liked and disliked in that way before in the past. Therefore it became paccaya to think, say or do the same things once more, no matter with any kind of kusala or akusala citta. This is because the accumulations of past deeds are pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya. In the Commentaries, Mahanipata, the 5th Mahosathajataka, Mahosatha said to King Videharaja: Bad people see this world as normal, not the next world. A brief statement but daily life to all those who have lobha or want something in daily life for they see only the importance of this lifetime. They desire praise, fame and fortune, and benefits, but can these follow them to the next world? The desired praise, fame and fortune of the present could never follow you to the next life. The attachment to praise, fame and fortune rises because bad people see this world as normal, or think only of this existing world, which enables them to perform dishonest deeds with lobha, dosa or moha, since they do not see the next world as normal. Each instant of akusala that arises and falls away is pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya for that kind of akusala-citta in the future. Even one instant of lobha-mula-citta could be upanissaya-paccaya for future lobha-mula-citta. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And one more question. Memory loss, like in head trauma or injury, stroke and Alzheimer disease. Something are paccaya for memory, when there are not enough conditions the memory is gone or unretrievable. Sanna cetasika arises with every citta as a part of a 7-sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika, but we can lose our memory by different causes. What is the question :), is memory a part of sanna or what is memory. Hope I am not digressive, I think it's still part of dhamma-study? Num 4203 From: Num Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah) Hi Dan, Hope you get well soon. Aroka parama arpa. Num 4204 From: Alex T Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:36am Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah) --- Dan wrote: > Hi Mike, > I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was > 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. Hi Dan, I hope that you're going to get better soon. I didn't know you're sick until now. Best wishes, Alex Tran 4205 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:07am Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > Another argument, albeit a bit of a stretch, that one could make in > favor of the discerning of a citta actually being a clear memory of that > citta is the base meaning of 'sati', namely 'remembering', 'recollecting', > 'not forgetting', or 'keeping in mind'. This argument may be nonsense, of course. It's just a thought. Dear Howard, More like a brilliant proliferation! I would add that it is a different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies the present object, even if that object is a memory from the past. Sati of course arises uniquely with kusala citta, whereas sanna is a 'universal' cetasika, and they are both imperceptible in their 'automatic' functions. Anumodana in your studies, Amara 4206 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:11am Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > Quick questions? > > What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti, > in bhavanga citta?? Dear Num, Quick reply? Whatever arammana (object of the citta) kamma produced as vipaka for the marana sanna vithi!!! See you soon! Amara 4207 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:17am Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah) > Pneumonia. I have antibiotics and supposedly all will be fine in a few > days. Dear Dan, Get well soon! And don't let that 'second arrow' through the mano dvara get you! Glad you're constantly thinking of the dhamma, what a wise use of time. Do keep us posted about that virus, please. All the best, Amara 4208 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:19am Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah) Sir Mike, thanks for everything, Amara > Dan, > > --- Dan wrote: > > > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly > > cheerful. > > Glad to hear it. I would have said, 'mindfulness > keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no > one 'noting''--does this agree with your > understanding? > > > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I > > just take up the > > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat. > > When the > > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion > > starts arising more > > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before > > sleep. These unusual > > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca, > > and by tomorrow or > > the next day, they are bound to subside for some > > time. > > Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I > THINK). I find this makes illness much more bearable, > too. Do you think this kind of reflection is practice > of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or > paññati? (This is not a rhetorical question). If it > is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both, > (seemingly) intermingled? > > I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various > kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi > meditation. > > Thanks and good health to you (and all of us), > > mike > 4209 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:25am Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah) Dear Dan, You do sound a lot better! (And not just the arahanta part!) Take care and chin up! Amara > Hi Mike, > I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was > 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. And I must admit, I do have a > preference for the current physical conditions--just a little more > evidence that I am not an arahat. Then again, even Buddha had > preferences for certain physical conditions. There's one interesting > story along these lines from the Vinaya, I believe. [I might look it > up later, but not just yet]. A gathering of bhikkhu's was getting a > bit boisterous. Buddha decided to leave the gathering to meditate in > the forest, away from all the hubbub. I've always wondered about this > because without the fetters of craving and aversion, where does this > preference come from? Apparently, even for Buddha's and arahats, there > is still preference for certain physical conditions. The difference is > that if those conditions are not available for them, it's no big deal. > If those conditions aren't available for us, then we can get a little > whiny about it. > > Dan: > > > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly > > > cheerful. > Mike: > > Glad to hear it. I would have said, 'mindfulness > > keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no > > one 'noting''--does this agree with your > > understanding? > Tee hee! I don't see any problem whatsoever using everyday language in > conversation and don't see much point in "overriding normal usage." > > > > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I > > > just take up the > > > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat. > > > When the > > > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion > > > starts arising more > > > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before > > > sleep. These unusual > > > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca, > > > and by tomorrow or > > > the next day, they are bound to subside for some > > > time. > > > > Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I > > THINK). I find this makes illness much more bearable, > > too. Do you think this kind of reflection is practice > > of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or > > paññati? > Great question, Mike. The reflections are clearly paññati. The noting > that the sickness is not going to last is just a diversionary tactic > to keep from whining. Such diversionary tactics, although certainly > not the BEST way to do things, do help. In the Vitakka-santhana sutta > (MN 20) Buddha discusses techniques of removing undesirable evil > thoughts. The first one is to replace the evil thoughts by their > desirable and beneficial opposites. In this case, the evil whininess > that can be so tempting during sickness is in no small measure due to > identifying with the unpleasant sensations and wrongly understanding > them to be permanent. Reflection that they are not helps to remove the > Self from the sensations. It helps! [NOTE: MN 20 is nominally about > removing distracting thoughts when trying to attain jhana. But the > same tactics seem to make sense for more everyday experiences too, > don't they? Another example of the "depth of teaching" (Mahanidana > sutta commentary)] > > What helps even more is bare observation of less abstract things > (practice of insight). For example, the suffering associated with > chills (which are fairly unpleasant things!) can be tremendously > reduced by establishing mindfulness of the body: "The body is > shivering;" on the vedana: "Unpleasant sensations;" On the mental > contents: "Aversion." How is mindfulness established if there is no > 'who' to direct the establishing? First, chanda incites sankappa and > viriya, which bring consciousness to the vicinity of the "four > foundations." Then, samma ditthi checks the attention. Wise attention > is allowed to reproduce, and unwise attention is not. In this way, > moments of wise attention expand to the capacity allowed by the degree > to which samma ditthi and samma samadhi and samma vayama that have > been developed. > > > If it > > is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both, > > (seemingly) intermingled? > Partly it is a defensive mechanism, but it is a defense against > aversion. So, if it is opposed to aversion, does that not make it > rooted in non-aversion? It seems so, but it is not so clear. > > > I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various > > kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi > > meditation. > > …and very good thing to do at that. Keep us posted. > > Dan 4210 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Sarah >>Dear Cybele, > >I hope you're getting on well in London. Well I have good friends here but no one is English actually, I don't mean offense but that's is the truth. Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-) But not coldblooded please! >Cybele, back to all your nice posts back to me and >others. Sorry for the delay, but I think we've all >been distracted by Erik's tasty brains. (I hope he >responds to your note to him, btw). I told you that my brains were not palatable for the mental set up of this group. ;-) You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but don't worry I understand you are far too much busy. And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far and I don't count on any response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of coffee as I am Brazilian. >If you don't mind, >I'll just pick up a couple of points only. > >1. PASSION >You asked if I find it 'totally incompatible with >appreciation of dhamma?' >Cybele, when we talk about passion, we're usually >referring to (strong) lobha (attachment). Any reality, >including this one, can be the object of understanding >and in this way it is not incompatible at all. What we >can say, is that at the moments of passion themselves, >there is no appreciation of dhamma. So they arise at >different moments. We all have a lot of lobha or >passion. It's good to recognize it rather than try to >suppress it as I know you realize, but we shouldn't >kid ourselves that it's anything other than lobha. What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop mindfulness about it as regarding everything else. Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed my viewpoint, therefore difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the very concept of 'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non commitment in interactions of any kind. > >2. CULTIVATION >Let me quote you: '..I mean knowledge, awareness are >also a skill therefore you can develop it, being >always conscious of the ephemeral nature of everything >and therefore you have these little awakenings and you >fall asleep again for sure but it is like planting >seeds without being eager to collect the fruits but we >need 'cultivating' isn't it'. > >Cybele, awareness (sati) arises just for a brief >moment to be aware on a reality such as seeing or >passion. When we have the idea of 'being conscious of >the ephemeral nature of everything', isn't this just >thinking? No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply 'understand ' - this comment is just a further elaboration to explain it but is not the awareness of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it intellectually a posteriori. How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already passed, is just a memory, is not present anymore. And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta and dukkha invites somehow the right mental conditions for this understanding to arise in my experience but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on many different factors. Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool and never improved genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not, how could we understanding anything at all? >It doesn't mean it's not wise thinking, but >it's not the same as understanding the seeing or the >passion now. If there isn't this direct understanding >or awareness there will continue to be the idea of >someone who is conscious or watching or observing or >noting realities because the namas (realities which >are experiencing an object) are being taken for a >self. Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you call self or what we can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of thought, emotions, sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this understanding. Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far as I am aware or nama rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is mindfulness. The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be uprooted so easily - this is just thinking a wise conception of non self but you can experience it directly only when the right conditions arises. Therefore understanding will be there and drop by drop will fill up the mental container of wisdom but it's a very long process eradicating ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of awakening can happen anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement in that very moment are overcome by awareness. > >The moments of awareness and understanding can and >have to be cultivated, but WE can't do it.... We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant wishful thinking right now Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial but we are seeking for it DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in craving for results. But we have to focuse our minds on it so far. > >Cybele, like you, I appreciate (and am very attached >to) my dhamma friends. Hopefully we'll all be around >for a good long while to help each other. Please let >us know anytime the going gets tough if we can help. >Never mind how 'frugal' the meals. I like you too Sarah. It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so to speak - I am not ok but that's ok. I can only endure. > >Actually, I know this is a very frugal mouthful. When >I went through your delightful posts, there were so >many enjoyable and good comments, that there is little >for me to bite into! I am sure you are not starving around here... > >I hope your friends are doing well and Cybele, thank >you for your kind comments too about being >'warm-hearted', even though 'Anglo-saxon'. Sorry, >about the last bit (Anglo-saxon), maybe that will be >improved in another life! You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse oblige teasing 'gringos'. ;-) > >With best wishes and respect, >Sarah > >p.s. what did you think of 'hard-core dhamma'? No? O.K >let's stick to dynamic meditators...it has a certain >'ring' to it..... > Best Wishes to you too pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong Kong otherwise I could have met you. And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators. LOve CYbele 4211 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:48am Subject: Re: : Sanna > Since someone has already brought up the issue on memory, sanna. Let me ask > and share with the group the definition, manifestation, character and may be > function of sanna. Just my curiosity. > > I have read that sanna is limitless, means sanna can recognize anything, > paramattha, nibbana, pannatti, jhana, etc. As I asked before about arammana > of sanna in bhavanga citta, vinnana-citta, pathisandhi-citta or cuti-citta. > > Let me throw in my worldly knowledge, two basic kinds of memory, procedural > implicit (procedural) memory and explicit memory. Briefly, explicit memory > involves conscious recollection; implicit memory involves the cognitive use > of previous experiences without conscious recognition. We have to think about > a friend's phone number but we do not have to think how to drive a car, one > we can do it we can just do it. > > I have read about 24-paccaya during my vaccation, (thanks for an updating > K.Amara.) When I read about upanissaya-paccaya, it sounds like a kind of > skill or memory. How can we explain or approach upanissaya-paccaya by sanna > term or vice versa? Let me cut and paste from dhammastudy.com, Summary of > the 24 Paccaya : > Dear K. Num, Fantastic questions, first may I thank you for making me consider the matter again in detail and attempt to explain if from my own understandings, an excellent exercise I don't bother to do for myself very much. Which is why the following is my personal view of the matter, not found in any book or explanations I have ever come across; therefore any errors are my responsibility alone. Here goes: Logically it would have to be the memory at the base of any skill or attachments, wouldn't it, even to the self. If for example there is experience through the senses but no memory of it would we think there is an 'us'? Would we want to experience the same things again? Memory plays a vital role in our lives which is why in the categorization of the 5 khandha, it is one of the 2 cetasika accorded its own classification: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. This is the classification of the paramattha dhamma we experience daily which is to say citta, cetsika and rupa, exempting nibbana. Nama and rupa covers everything, of course. One sees that of the 52 cetasika, two are accorded exceptional importance, while the others are lumped together as sankhara. Vedana is precisely the emotions derived from specific experiences, and sanna the exact and indelible memory thereof. The attachment (degrees of lobha) they form lead to cetana, the intention to do something in order to repeat and possibly intensify the desired effects, which is a major paccaya: kamma paccaya. Kamma paccaya in its turn can be categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya paccaya, and here are the analogies I invented to try to explain my personal understanding: From KS's references to fun and games below I would like to be more specific, for example when people who have never seen any games, are exposed to them, try them out, and even become very addicted to them, whether children's hide and seek or your tennis or horseback riding, or even video games. This would be something like a pyramidal domino that could spread out or not depending on conditions, like the arammanupanissaya-paccaya. The anantarupanissaya-paccaya would be like an endless line of single dominoes, except that each one that falls sets up the next one as it falls as well, so that the line is in fact infinite. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya would be like the memory of how to set up the dominoes in the future, when there's a chance of playing again, not just domino but just about any game in life (and OF life.) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > 5. Upanissaya-paccaya > > Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for other > realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is paccaya > by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise concurrently > with it. There are three upanissaya-paccaya: > > 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya > > 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya > > 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya > > As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is > the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that is arising > in the present. When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and > attachment in the > wrong view as strong arammana the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta > would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a strong > base by being the arammana. For example, in the instant there is pleasure > and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person regards as > right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in the > wrong view. > > The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last > lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next > lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi. The last > lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or bhavanga to > arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya. > > Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is a strong birthplace for daily, habitually > performed or accumulated realities. When the lobha-mula-citta has arisen and > fallen away, the realities that had arisen with the citta would accumulate in > the subsequent citta. Having thought and done something, there would be > accumulated strength to make the same kind of lobha-mula-citta arise again. > > Besides the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta, or the lobha-mula-citta > arising with wrong view, one could see from real life that each person takes > pleasure in or has different habits concerning what is seen through the eyes, > sound that is heard through the ears, different smells, tastes, clothing, > objects, utensils, stories or even fun and games. This is because there has > been that satisfaction before, accumulated liking for such things, and having > done them, they would be pakatupanissaya-paccaya: the usual strong birthplace > for what has been done and accumulated. The Buddha manifested the Jataka or > stories from the past when such and such events took place and the > accumulations of the persons in the long time past. > > Not only do each of us think, say, do, like or dislike certain things in this > lifetime; but we must have done, thought, said, liked and disliked in that > way before in the past. Therefore it became paccaya to think, say or do the > same things once more, no matter with any kind of kusala or akusala citta. > This is because the accumulations of past deeds are pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya. > > In the Commentaries, Mahanipata, the 5th Mahosathajataka, Mahosatha said to > King Videharaja: Bad people see this world as normal, not the next world. A > brief statement but daily life to all those who have lobha or want something > in daily life for they see only the importance of this lifetime. They desire > praise, fame and fortune, and benefits, but can these follow them to the next > world? The desired praise, fame and fortune of the present could never > follow you to the next life. The attachment to praise, fame and fortune > rises > because bad people see this world as normal, or think only of this existing > world, which enables them to perform dishonest deeds with lobha, dosa or > moha, since they do not see the next world as normal. > > Each instant of akusala that arises and falls away is > pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya for that kind of akusala-citta in the future. Even > one instant of lobha-mula-citta could be upanissaya-paccaya for future > lobha-mula-citta. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > And one more question. Memory loss, like in head trauma or injury, stroke > and Alzheimer disease. Something are paccaya for memory, when there are not > enough conditions the memory is gone or unretrievable. Sanna cetasika arises > with every citta as a part of a 7-sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika, but we > can lose our memory by different causes. What is the question :), is memory > a part of sanna or what is memory. Memory is definitely sanna and is a nama, and as such do not depend much on rupa but kamma to arise, though for most beings (i.e. not the 'arupa' ones) they don't arise outside the appropriate rupa. Memory loss can also occur from emotional blockage in a 'normal' brain, couldn't it, doctor? Or in other cases, such as this accident victim whose skull was pierced through with an iron rod or something and suffered no major damage, from what I remember having seen on TV. There is also the case study of the community of very elderly nuns (average age over 80, in fact around 90 if I remember correctly) in the States who apparently had perfect memory. When one died, I think a year or two ago, they discovered that her brain also showed signs of Alzheimer deterioration to the surprise of the researchers. If it were not one's vipaka would any accidents or diseases happen? There's no God up there we can conveniently blame for sending down minor cuts for some and major epidemics for millions of others. > Hope I am not digressive, I think it's still part of dhamma-study? Absolutely, in fact to me almost anything is!!! But I personally enjoyed your questions very much, Bis, encore, et merci infiniment! Amara 4212 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:07pm Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator Hello, Cybele, Say hi to Big Ben for me! Amara > Dear Sarah > > > >>Dear Cybele, > > > >I hope you're getting on well in London. > 4213 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Amara I am freezing my back side here, it's VERY COLD!! Now I understand why they are 'coldblodeed'... ;-) I will refer your regards to the Big Ben. A hug Cybele >From: "Amara" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator >Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:07:32 -0000 > >Hello, Cybele, > >Say hi to Big Ben for me! > >Amara > 4214 From: Num Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator Hi Cybele, No matter how cold it is, I know that you always keep your heart warm, right? The sun is never tired of giving his warmness to the earth. Hope you are always sunny :) Don't let poikilothermic people make you down, give them your kindness and passion. <> I think you got a right idea, know yourself as the way it is. Like somebody said, the first step to solve the problem is to recognize that we have a problem. Everything has it own causes and conditions and it changes also by causes and conditions not b/c of atta, sense of self or even an intention. <> I don't understand why you put detachment and frozen emotion together. We can detach or attach to our emotion, e.g., anger. Frozen-emotion person can still attach to their expressive style. Spring is coming. Keep yourself warm. Hope you enjoy your stay in London. Is the air still pretty polluted there? Num 4215 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Num > >Hi Cybele, > >No matter how cold it is, I know that you always keep your heart warm, >right? RIGHT NUM! Glad to know you understand me! :-) > The sun is never tired of giving his warmness to the earth. Hope you are >always sunny :) >Don't let poikilothermic people make you down, give them your kindness and >passion. Always Num, fear not. ;-) I have got a big heart and down as I am I do not refuse warmth to anybody. > ><nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past >accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop >mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.>> > >I think you got a right idea, know yourself as the way it is. Like somebody >said, the first step to solve the problem is to recognize that we have a >problem. Everything has it own causes and conditions and it changes also by >causes and conditions not b/c of atta, sense of self or even an intention. I don't see it as a problem actually, perhaps this is the problem! ;-) I am teasing Num but however I just feel that this intensity could be yes canalized but is the that subtle, petulant meaning of control that puts me off... > ><'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non >commitment in interactions of any kind.>> > >I don't understand why you put detachment and frozen emotion together. I am not the one who mixed it up, but many so called budhhist or 'spiritual seekers' do it. They confound dismissiveness and suppression with detachment. They freeze their feelings and emotions and justify their fear of investigate it as detachment. >We can >detach or attach to our emotion, e.g., anger. Frozen-emotion person can >still attach to their expressive style. That's what I meant, justifying with 'detachment' you are really attached to your fear or anger, therefore is not craving but aversion, what doesn't change the fact that we are clinging to... > >Spring is coming. Keep yourself warm. Hope you enjoy your stay in London. >Is >the air still pretty polluted there? > >Num No London smog anymore Num, you are outdated! :-)))) Thanks for the warmth, much appreciated. Cybele 4216 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear Num, Just contributing my (possibly wrong) understandings. > -----Original Message----- > From: Num [mailto:Num] > > Quick questions? > > What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 > vinna-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti, > in bhavanga citta?? Since you have already looked up "the definition, manifestation, character and may be function of sanna", I assume that you also know that sanna "marks" what it cognizes as the function. Being able to remember (what happened in the past, and perhaps as what Howard has suggested recently, the act of cognizing already-fallen paramatha dhamma whose characteristics are already gone) is the manifestation of (past) sanna (that was there cognizing the object that the current citta and current sanna is cognizing). If we follow that train of thought, then the question "What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti, in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each sanna arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same object as the citta. Hence: When the seeing citta sees, the co-arising sanna cognizes color When the hearing citta hears, the co-arising sanna cognizes sound When the smelling citta smells, the co-arising sanna cognizes smell etc. Patisandhi, cuti, and bhavanga citta of this life cognizes the same aramana as the last vithi (???) of the last life. I cannot think of a way to map the system of "Implicit" and "Explicit" memory to paramatha dhamma. I think when we say we "remember" (not marking) something, it means that the act of remembering is occuring in Javana. The appearance of how hard we have to think about it I think depends on how "skilled" the vitaka cetasikas is in applying to the desired aramanas. A friend's phone number can become a second nature after we have been calling for a while. I still remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even though I am not using it anymore. I still remember (the Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was when I just learned how to drive. I think the act of remembering seems to be a function of vitakka more than a function of sanna (but namas are so mutually co-dependent that this is probably not very accurate to say). The fact that the current Vitakka is applying on the aramana of the past implies (is a manifestation of) the existence/function of the past sanna. All in all though, it appears that we (or at least I) tend to remember kusala more than akusala. Khun Num, how about giving me an explanation? kom 4217 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:08pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > More like a brilliant proliferation! I would add > that it is a > different cetasika from sanna, though, and only > studies the present > object, even if that object is a memory from the > past. Sati of course I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently fallen"... :-) kom 4218 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:16pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently fallen"... > :-) > > kom Dear K Kom, I don't think so, I meant the awareness of 'thinking' (about the characteristics of the former citta, such as how the ugly vedana was). Does that work for you? Amara 4219 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:33pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara Earlier quote: > I would add that it [sati] is a > different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies the present > object, even if that object is a memory from the past. Earlier reply: > > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the > > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently > fallen"... > > :-) > > > > kom > Later quote: > Dear K Kom, > > I don't think so, I meant the awareness of > 'thinking' (about the > characteristics of the former citta, such as how > the ugly vedana was). > Does that work for you? > > Amara Don't you think we are leading back to the original question that Howard raises? Sati at the present can be cognizing two different types of object: 1) Nama: the nama [except nibanna] that the sati (as in Satipatthana) cognizes has to have fallen. Sati doesn't arise to cognize nama that is still there [except maybe in the supernatural citta], that hasn't fallen yet. 2) Rupa: the rupa that the sati (as in Satipatthana) cognizes may still be around (through the 5 dvaras) if the sati is also within the 5 dvara-vith but must have fallen if the sati is in within the mano-vithi. The "thinking" (one of) cittas/cetasikas that the current sati cognizes surely would have fallen before the current sati arises. Do I miss something? kom 4220 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:35pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > I cannot think of a way to map the system of "Implicit" and > "Explicit" memory to paramatha dhamma. I think when we say > we "remember" (not marking) something, it means that the act > of remembering is occuring in Javana. The appearance of how > hard we have to think about it I think depends on how > "skilled" the vitaka cetasikas is in applying to the desired > aramanas. A friend's phone number can become a second > nature after we have been calling for a while. I still > remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even > though I am not using it anymore. I still remember (the > Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was > when I just learned how to drive. > > I think the act of remembering seems to be a function of > vitakka more than a function of sanna (but namas are so > mutually co-dependent that this is probably not very > accurate to say). The fact that the current Vitakka is > applying on the aramana of the past implies (is a > manifestation of) the existence/function of the past sanna. Dear K.Kom, I beg to differ here, vitaka is often used with vicara, meaning to think and to sustain or support that thinking, as in the ch. on cetasika in the 'Summary' in the advanced section of from which this excerpt: 1. Vitakka-cetasika is the cetasika that approaches or applies itself to the arammana that the phassa-cetasika is in contact with. The vitakka-cetasika arises with 55 cetasika: 44 kamavacara-citta and 11 pathamajjhana-citta, exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the dutiyajjhana, tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana. The vitakka-cetasika would approach or applies itself to the arammana according to the state of the citta and cetasika it arises with. The vitakka-cetasika that approaches the arammana is like the feet of the world because it makes the world move forward (with the citta arising and evolving) according to the specific vitakka-cetasika. 2. Vicara-cetasika is the cetasika that supports and follows vitakka. No matter what the vitakka approaches, the vicara would support and follow. The Vicara-cetasika arises with 66 citta comprising 44 kamavacara-citta, 11 pathamajjhana-citta and 11 dutiyajjhana, exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana. Any citta with vitakka-cetasika arising concurrently would also have vicara-cetasika arising with it exempting 11 citta which have only vicara-cetasika without vitakka-cetasika arising concurrently, namely the 11 dutiyajjhana-citta. While for sanna which is definitely remembering and after that recalling, the explanation is: 3. Sanna-cetasika is the cetasika that remembers (cognizes) the arammana. The sanna-cetasika remembers all arammana that appear as continuous events, entities, people. It remembers the feelings of happiness, unhappiness, gladness, sorrow or indifference for the arammana. It is an important paccaya that enhances attachment and clinging to life in the same way as vedana-cetasika, which upon feeling happy or glad, for example, would thereby be mistakenly attached to and desire the distinct feeling continuously. Therefore the vedana-cetasika constitutes the vedanakkhandha by itself and sanna-cetasika the sanna- khandha. While the 50 other cetasika compose the citta according to the characteristics of the respective cetasika and form the sankharakkhandha. (End quotes) Of course one can alternately be the object of the other also. Amara > All in all though, it appears that we (or at least I) tend > to remember kusala more than akusala. Khun Num, how about > giving me an explanation? > > kom 4221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:41pm Subject: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, I'm giving myself an ambitious task to pick up several threads at the same time....Hmmmmm!! Let's start with Erik's question to me: ************************************************* "How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your explanation of this." ************************************************* Can we all agree that seeing is a mental phenemenon which experiences visible object and that visible object is that which is seen through the eye-sense? We can call it visible object or colour or that which appears through the eyes. It is not a computer, text or a thing. Can we further agree that if we close our eyes, there is no seeing? Seeing is a nama, the 'reality' which experiences the object, no being or thing in it. It is also a citta accompanied by its attendants, the cetasikas. Can we say that it only experiences visible object through the eye-door and arises because of many different conditions? Can we also agree that there isn't just one citta experiencing an object but a series of cittas? The visible object which is experienced through the eye door is also experienced by cittas through the mind door. Alex and Mike, is this clear enough? Of course, the conditions by which any citta arises at any given time are very complex. At each moment seeing experiences visible object (and the subsequent cittas experience it through the mind door), sanna cetasika (perception, memory) marks or recognizes the object and is a proximate cause for sati (awareness) to be aware of the visible object. Right, Des? Sanna can be skilful or unskilful, it can mark correctly or wrongly, with or without sati. Even for a stroke patient or alzheimer's patient, sanna is marking at each moment, Num, even when conventionally we'd say there's no memory. So what we take for atta (self) in the case of seeing is actually the moment of experiencing that which is seen followed by thinking and conceptualizing about it. When we think of memory or mindfulness conventionally or in psychological terms, it has very little to do with the precise characteristics of these realities as explained clearly by the Buddha. Being mindful of eating or walking or remembering the time are not examples of sati and sanna. They are concepts based on a number of different realities and concepts. So far, so good? The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact moment of seeing or immediately following it in the mind-door process is not very important. What is important is to understand its nature when it appears. I can hear Erik ready to object! So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence? Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it would not arise and would not perform its function. There was some discussion awhile back (between Jon and Howard I believe) about the individual essence or sabhava. Howard, you amy wish to refer back to this, but now rather than hunting back, let me quote from the Visuddhimagga which has many notes about sabhava (individual essence). I'm looking at ChX1V, (the start of the section on vipassana),3-7, which discusses panna (understanding) and also sanna (perception): '....It is understanding (panna) in the sense of act of understanding (pajanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (janana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sanjanana) and cognizing (vijanana). For though the state of knowing (janana-bhava) is equally present in perception (sanna), in consciousness (vinnana) and in understanding (panna), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the (supramundane) path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics, and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path.................Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states*. Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words "One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly (A.v.3), its proximate cause is concentration...' *' 'A phenomenon's own essence (sako bhavo) or existing essence (samano va bhava) is its individual essence (sabhava). Cf Ch V111, note 68 where Pm gives the definition from saha-bhava (with essence). At the last reference we find the definition of sabhava is narrower than dhamma and is similar to dhatu (element)...'dhamma without individual essence (asabhava-dhamma) include the attainment of cessation and some concepts such as space and time.....Of nibbana..which has its own individual essence, the Mula Tia says: 'Nibbana is not like othe dhammas; because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of consciousness (alambitum) by one who has not realized it. That is why it has to be realized by change-of-lineage. It has profundity surpassing any individual essence belonging to the three periods of time.'.. There is a lot more detail on sabhava in the Vism. As I have mentioned, there has to be awareness of the characteristic of 'essence' or nature of seeing over and over and over again. Direct understanding has to know its nature as being not-self and quite different from visible object, sanna and thinking. When there is so little understanding now, I wonder rather what is the use of thinking much about nibbana when really there can be so little comprehension of what its profundity means. When we consider different realities, sometimes we may consider them in terms of dependent origination, sometimes as khandhas, sometimes as nama and rupa, sometimes in tems of kamma and vipaka. Whatever classification or terminology is being used, the purpose is to help remind us about different realities appearing right now which can be known as anatta. Dan, I hope you're recovering well from the pneumonia. When you're lying in bed with a fever, is there seeing? Can we call it 'meditation' at this moment of being aware of seeing? Best regards to you all and thanks for listening to a long post. Sarah 4222 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:50pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > Earlier quote: > > I would add that it [sati] is a > > different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies > the present > > object, even if that object is a memory from the past. > > Earlier reply: > > > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the > > > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently > > fallen"... > > > :-) > > > > > > kom > > > > Later quote: > > Dear K Kom, > > > > I don't think so, I meant the awareness of > > 'thinking' (about the > > characteristics of the former citta, such as how > > the ugly vedana was). > > Does that work for you? > > > > Amara > > Don't you think we are leading back to the original question > that Howard raises? Sati at the present can be cognizing > two different types of object: > 1) Nama: the nama [except nibanna] that the sati (as in > Satipatthana) cognizes has to have fallen. Sati doesn't > arise to cognize nama that is still there [except maybe in > the supernatural citta], that hasn't fallen yet. > 2) Rupa: the rupa that the sati (as in Satipatthana) > cognizes may still be around (through the 5 dvaras) if the > sati is also within the 5 dvara-vith but must have fallen if > the sati is in within the mano-vithi. > > The "thinking" (one of) cittas/cetasikas that the current > sati cognizes surely would have fallen before the current > sati arises. I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part, As to the nama, we have to make the distinction: First, sati arises automatically with all kusala citta, do you agree? Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its characteristics, but it is there, which is why kusala condones to the arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped in akusala would hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even occur at its weakest level. However, in a person who has developed some sati to a certain degree, when there are conditions for it to arise sati would do so even when there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a flood. At the split seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta, as bhavana as sati arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka and sanna applying to the the realities that has just fallen away, but it cannot be the nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for kusala citta which can simultaneous study of the present kusala citta. Does this make any sense? Amara 4223 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al. : speech Num, I really appreciated your very well-selected and timely quotes. I found them to be full of useful reminders and had actually just been reflecting on this topic when I received your posts. I am surprised when I read someone writes or speaks with just compassion or good intentions. For me, even at the best of times, there are many more moments of akusala (unwholesomeness) than kusala (wholesomeness) when I speak. For example, it can be wrong speech at the moments when there is a lack of consideration for the other's feelings and even when we don't speak out at all, if we keep quiet with dosa (avesion), it is not kusala that avoids wrong speech. Thank you, Num. I think we all need many of these reminders (at least I do)! Sorry, must run!!:-) Sarah --- Num wrote: > Hi all, > > I am going to make 3 posts rgd good speech, anger, > the way and how to examine > dhamma. I will pretty much cut and paste the > sutta from accesstoinsight. > Pardon me if you guys have already read all of > these. Dhamma is deep, so > read it carefully and attentively, OK. > > Good speech: > > Every fool who is born > has an axe within his mouth > with which he cuts himself > when he uses wrong speech. > > One should utter only words > which do no harm to oneself > and cause no harm for others: > that is truly beautiful speech. > > Speak kind words, words > rejoiced at and welcomed, > words that bear ill-will to none; > always speak kindly to others. > > The worse of the two is he > who, when abused, retaliates. > One who does not retaliate > wins a battle hard to win. > > The fool thinks he has won a battle > when he bullies with harsh speech, > but knowing how to be forbearing > alone makes one victorious. > > When the recluse speaks much > it is only to speak about the goal. > Knowingly he teaches the Dhamma, > knowingly he speaks much. > > If one addresses those who wish > to learn, without wavering, imparting > understanding, opening up and not > obscuring the teaching. > > Speaking without hesitation nor > getting angry when asked a question, > a monk like this is worthy > to proclaim the teachings. > > If he does not speak up, others know > him not; he is just a wise man mixed > up with fools. But if he speaks about > and teaches the Deathless, others will > know him. So let him light up the Dhamma, > let him lift the sage's banner high. > > The Buddha speaks words that lead > to the winning of security, the ending > of sorrow and the attaining of Nibbana. > Truly, this is the speech supreme. > > > I got this from Gemstones of the Good Dhamma > (Saddhamma-maniratana), > Vacavagga. 4224 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part, Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in dispute? Curious mind wants to know! > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala > citta, do you agree? 100% > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its > characteristics, but it is there, which is why > kusala condones to the > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped > in akusala would > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even > occur at its weakest > level. Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc... > > However, in a person who has developed some sati > to a certain degree, > when there are conditions for it to arise sati > would do so even when > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a > flood. At the split > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta, But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)? I don't believe it cognizes itself. If sati is cognizing sati, then it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing. Isn't this true? > as bhavana as sati > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka > and sanna applying > to the the realities that has just fallen away, > but it cannot be the > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for > kusala citta which can > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta. > Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)? If you are, I would ask for a recount! I would appreciate it if you ask Tan A. Sujin on this issue.. kom 4225 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:16pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Dear Sarah, In your passage to Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, and Num, does "essence" refer to sabhava, functions, infinitely small existence, etc., or strictly sabhava? Anumoddhana. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah] > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 11:42 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] > sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia > > > Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, > 4226 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:56pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear K. Amara, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amara > > > > I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part, > > Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in > dispute? Curious mind wants to know! > > > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala > > citta, do you agree? > > 100% > > > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its > > characteristics, but it is there, which is why > > kusala condones to the > > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped > > in akusala would > > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even > > occur at its weakest > > level. > > Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc... > > > > > However, in a person who has developed some sati > > to a certain degree, > > when there are conditions for it to arise sati > > would do so even when > > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a > > flood. At the split > > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta, > > But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma > that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)? I don't > believe it cognizes itself. If sati is cognizing sati, then > it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing. > Isn't this true? Dear K. Kom, Not at all, it is not the study of something past, UNIQUELY WHAT IS APPEARING AT THAT MOMENT CAN SHOW ITS TRUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT CLEARLY. Please reread the 'Summary' chapter of vipassana, from which this is an extract: For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly are. The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. ...Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves.... Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects? The same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense contact. Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way to practice to develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is kayanupassana-satipatthana. 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is vedananupassana-satipatthana. 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is cittanupassana-satipatthana. 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is dhammanupassana-satipatthana. ...All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya or when the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. Those who develop panna are straightforward. When satipatthana arises they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati. When satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The perseverance that arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. (End quote) Everthing has to be as the paramatthadhamma is experienced, never after it has fallen away. Otherwise they are just moments of thoughts unless the thoughts are objects of awareness at that moment too. > > as bhavana as sati > > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka > > and sanna applying > > to the the realities that has just fallen away, > > but it cannot be the > > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for > > kusala citta which can > > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta. > > > > Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't > already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)? If you are, > I would ask for a recount! I would appreciate it if you ask > Tan A. Sujin on this issue.. > That is precisely what happens when sati does its duty, Nibbana included, at the level of attainment. Not having nibbana as arammana, how can the citta have the steadfastness of the jhana at that moment? I will call Tan A right now, and you might do the same too, to make sure. A. 4227 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata" --- dear venerable Dhammapiyo, The commentary and tika to the Brahmajala sutta give an extensive (14 pages in Bhikhu Bodhi's translation) definitions of Tathagata.pp331-334 of The all-embracing net of views. robert 4228 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:50pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear all, MAJOR RETRACTION! Sorry for misleading anyone, K. Kom, you are RIGHT, everything happens at such an amazing speed, 17 the speed of the fastest rupa, therefore although it is regarded as the same moment, down to the individual citta even the tiny instant of sati arises in alternation with the other citta. At the level of the individual citta therefore the citta that sees, hears, etc., being there to receive vipaka, have the fewest cetasika accompanying them, just the seven minimal universals, so sati could never arise there. During the subsequent 7 instants of javana I think it can, but I had better ask K. Kom to take over the explanations as KS said she would explain the details on Saturday. Thanks K. Kom, that was a HUGE REVISION, I had forgotten some of the details, and learned something new as well!!! I'm glad you guys are there who will not let something of this magnitude pass and correct my misunderstanding before I mislead too many others. Sorry to those I did so far, by the way, it was an 'honest' mistake, I didn't mean to give the wrong information! Glad to be corrected when I am really wrong, and to be learning something new, K. Kom, do explain how it really is! Amara > > Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in > > dispute? Curious mind wants to know! > > > > > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala > > > citta, do you agree? > > > > 100% > > > > > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its > > > characteristics, but it is there, which is why > > > kusala condones to the > > > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped > > > in akusala would > > > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even > > > occur at its weakest > > > level. > > > > Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc... > > > > > > > > However, in a person who has developed some sati > > > to a certain degree, > > > when there are conditions for it to arise sati > > > would do so even when > > > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a > > > flood. At the split > > > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta, > > > > But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma > > that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)? I don't > > believe it cognizes itself. If sati is cognizing sati, then > > it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing. > > Isn't this true? > > > Dear K. Kom, > > Not at all, it is not the study of something past, UNIQUELY WHAT IS > APPEARING AT THAT MOMENT CAN SHOW ITS TRUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT > CLEARLY. Please reread the 'Summary' chapter of vipassana, from which > this is an extract: > > For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of > realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from > the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the > truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through > the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. > It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the > true characteristics of realities as they truly are. The Buddha > manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant > in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and > samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one would not > endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that > fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they > truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. > > ...Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and > rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine > arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they > are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves.... > > Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, > entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects? The > same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense > contact. > > Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very > rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way to practice to > develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only > one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely > samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), > samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta > (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), > samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) > samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). > > At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path > (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 > virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) > would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that > sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either > nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently > with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and > know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma > little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear > knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. > > Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense > and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to > be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as > > 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of > the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is > kayanupassana-satipatthana. > > 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful > of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is > vedananupassana-satipatthana. > > 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of > the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is > cittanupassana-satipatthana. > > 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of > the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is > dhammanupassana-satipatthana. > > ...All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, > are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya or when the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there > would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, > noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing > through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. > > Those who develop panna are straightforward. When satipatthana arises > they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati. When > satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the > characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The perseverance that > arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note > and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that > appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): > sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. > > (End quote) > > > Everthing has to be as the paramatthadhamma is experienced, never > after it has fallen away. Otherwise they are just moments of thoughts > unless the thoughts are objects of awareness at that moment too. > > > > > as bhavana as sati > > > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka > > > and sanna applying > > > to the the realities that has just fallen away, > > > but it cannot be the > > > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for > > > kusala citta which can > > > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta. > > > > > > > Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't > > already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)? If you are, > > I would ask for a recount! I would appreciate it if you ask > > Tan A. Sujin on this issue.. > > > > > That is precisely what happens when sati does its duty, Nibbana > included, at the level of attainment. Not having nibbana as arammana, > how can the citta have the steadfastness of the jhana at that moment? > > I will call Tan A right now, and you might do the same too, to make > sure. > > A. 4229 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata" Thank you, Robert. Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata" > > --- dear venerable Dhammapiyo, > The commentary and tika to the Brahmajala sutta give an > extensive (14 pages in Bhikhu Bodhi's translation) definitions > of Tathagata.pp331-334 of The all-embracing net of views. > robert 4230 From: Erik Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:10pm Subject: Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, > > I'm giving myself an ambitious task to pick up several > threads at the same time....Hmmmmm!! And doing a marvelous job of it, I should say. This is exactly the sort of stuff I was hoping to learn here. > Let's start with Erik's question to me: > ************************************************* > "How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your > explanation of this." > ************************************************* > Right, Des? Sanna can be skilful or unskilful, it can > mark correctly or wrongly, with or without sati. This is interesting. I never knew this. I had assumed that sanna was a neutral in terms of kusala/akusala. Or do you not mean kusala, but rather "mistaken" and "non-mistaken?" > The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by > being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears > at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact > moment of seeing or immediately following it in the > mind-door process is not very important. What is > important is to understand its nature when it appears. > I can hear Erik ready to object! No, you won't, because this make perfect sense to me. :) > So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence? > Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it > would not arise and would not perform its function. I am glad you added "essence" here is merely ascribed in relation to the object's performing a certain function. > When we consider different realities, sometimes we may > consider them in terms of dependent origination, > sometimes as khandhas, sometimes as nama and rupa, > sometimes in tems of kamma and vipaka. Whatever > classification or terminology is being used, the > purpose is to help remind us about different realities > appearing right now which can be known as anatta. I agree with this 100%, just so you know. Thank you again for your thoughtful reply, Sarah. I am learning exactly the sort of things I was hoping to. 4231 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Can we also agree that there isn't just one citta > experiencing an object but a series of cittas? This seems self-evident. Assuming the great brevity of cittas and cetasikas, without these long series of processes no impingement could last long enough to condtion much of anything conscious. > The > visible object which is experienced through the eye > door is also experienced by cittas through the mind > door. Alex and Mike, is this clear enough? I know this theoretically (from having read it) but am not clear on how it is that the a rupa appears at the mind door AFTER having been taken as an object through one of the sense doors. Thanks in advance. mike 4232 From: Dan Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:09pm Subject: Holiday (of sorts) Once the illness passes, I'm going to find myself far behind in my work, so once again I will take a holiday from the dsg for some time. Thanks Amara, Mike, Alex, Howard, Num, des (et al.) for you warm thoughts. Sarah and Jon, I'm sorry to fall behind on responses to your great posts. Your posts always require me to think--something that I haven't been too good at lately. I do hope to get on board to respond before I go back to work [hopefully Friday afternoon :) ]. Sarah, yes we can certainly call it 'meditation' and 'practice.' But these aren't the kinds of physical conditions I prefer. 4233 From: Alex T Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:29pm Subject: Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, Dear Sarah, Thank you for the detailed post. I'll re-read pp 32-34 of A Manual of Abhidhamma by Thera Narada and the Vism. carefully. I'll be back, :-))) Alex 4234 From: Howard Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi, Sarah - I comment here on just a small section of your post. In a message dated 3/22/01 2:43:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sarah writes: > The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by > being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears > at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact > moment of seeing or immediately following it in the > mind-door process is not very important. What is > important is to understand its nature when it appears. > I can hear Erik ready to object! > > So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence? > Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it > would not arise and would not perform its function. > > There was some discussion awhile back (between Jon and > Howard I believe) about the individual essence or > sabhava. Howard, you amy wish to refer back to this, > but now rather than hunting back, let me quote from > the Visuddhimagga which has many notes about sabhava > (individual essence). I'm looking at ChX1V, (the start > of the section on vipassana),3-7, which discusses > panna (understanding) and also sanna (perception): > > ================================== It seems that you are using 'essence' here to mean little more than lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have characteristics. But I don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the same meaning as 'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. Essence or own-being or self-nature or sabhava is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by virtue of their being impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. At the same time, they have characteristics, being conditioned. The unconditioned dhamma has no essence, being an absence - the absence of all conditions, but, being empty of all conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also without characteristic. This is the way it seems to me. If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having of a characteristic feature, the only problem I have is that I think that is an odd usage for the term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the having of a feature in an essential, unconditional manner, then I have a bigger problem with it. For example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But that non-fluidity is due to various factors including crystalline stucture, temperature, and lack of compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes in conditions, the characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which point *we* no longer use the word/concept 'ice'). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4235 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:45am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > During the subsequent 7 > instants of javana I > think it can, but I had better ask K. Kom to take > over the > explanations as KS said she would explain the > details on Saturday. Saturday is tomorrow for you. I don't think we have to wait that long to hear from Tan A. Sujin! My explanation [waiting for correction from K. Amara/KS] from memory is that: 1) The 5-dvara vithi cittas (vipaka, kiriya, kusala or akusala) all experience paramatha dhamma [1 of the 7 rupas] that is still there (but rises before the vithi cittas themselves). 2) The cittas of the same 5-dvara vithi (14, discounting bavangha) cognizes the same aramana. The aramana doesn't change within the vithi. 3) The javana cittas rising in the same 5-dvara vithi, if rising with Sati (satipatthana), can only cognizes 1 of the 7 rupas. 4) The cittas of the same mano-dvara vithi (10 or 8 some time and some bhumi discounting the last 2) also cognizes only 1 aramana for the entire vithi, with the exception of the magga vithi where more than one aramanas are experienced in the vithi. 5) The mano-dvara vithi rising after the 5-dvara vithi, after the bhavanga, also cognizes the same aramana [1 of 7 rupas] as the 5-dvara vithi. Although still cognizing paramatha aramana, the aramana in fact has already fallen (at least two citta-moments ago, counting the two necessary bhavangha). This is the jist of the question that Howard brought up. How could the aramana be paramatha unless something unless we are seeing a manifestation of sanna. Note that all the cittas within the mano-dvara vithi ALL rise with Vittaka (discounting some of the jhana cittas). 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with the 5-dvara vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana. If it is paramattha [one of the namas, since we already discount the rupas], the aramana again has alrady fallen at least 2 citta-moments ago. The aramana in such a vithi cannot be the namas rising in the same vithi (since the entire vithi cognizes the same aramana); therefore, the aramana in such a vithi must rise in a vithi preceding it. Hence, except for nibhanna, citta can only cognizes nama that is no longer there. The chracteristic experienced is still considered paramattha even if it is no longer there. K. Amara, I would also love to hear Tan A. Sujin's explanations of sanna and vittaka also. I keep hearing from different dhama conversations something like this: when we "don't remember" something that we want to remember, it means Vitaka is not applying on the desired aramana. There is sanna arising at every moment, but the rising sanna only marks the same aramana of the entire vithi even when we are not remembering. That's why the conjecture about sanna marks, but vitakka remembers. Note also that I make some differentiation between "marking" and "remembering", hopefully consistently across all the messages. kom 4236 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:05am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Observing Consciousness Dear K. Amara et Al. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > > Dear Khun Amara, > 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with > the 5-dvara > vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may > cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana. If it is > paramattha [one of the namas, since we already > discount the > rupas], Looks like my counting is defective, like usual. There are still other 21 rupas left that can be only experienced through the mano-vithi. For each of these other 21 rupas, I am uncertain of when it rises and falls in relative to the "observing" citta. kom 4237 From: Num Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Hi Kom and K.Amara, What's a great post.!! Thanks for sharing your learning, your sharp and keen wisdom with the dsg. I am elated. :-) Last night I was so tired from a tennis match, so I could not follow what you guys had discussed. So let me approach this issue by telling you what is my understanding as well as asking some questions at the same time. Please do correct me if I am wrong. 1. During the 17 moments of citta, the rupa which has arisen still not yet fallen away. 2. Only dvi-panca-vinnana-citta has rupa as a direct arammana in all 17 moments?? (2a) Dvi-panca-vinnana-citta, has the seven minimal universal cetasika. What does cetana cetasika, which is kamma-paccaya, do in all vipaka citta?? (2b) what is an arammana for the first bhavanga-citta, atita-bhavaga?? 3. Sati can have kusula or akusula as an arammana. Sati cannot arise at the same moment with akusula but always with all kusula citta as a 19 universal sobhana-cetasika. Akusula citta can be an arammana for kusula citta as a arammana-paccaya but sati is able to be aware of akusula citta as an arammana of citta that sati coarises. I think sati can be aware of only the present moment of current citta that sati coarises with??? Am I making sense, or just talking in circle?? Have to run again, Num 4238 From: Num Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Hi again Kom and K.Amara, Kom, what do you mean by "mark" the object. Could you explain a little more? You mean recognition/perception? In Chakku-vinnana-citta phassa-cetasika contacts visual object but recognition or perception is at later citta not at a vinnana-citta moment. <> Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not so clear what is the arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta. In deep sleep we don't remember, (may be better say recall) anything but sanna still does it's function. <> Could u tell me what the different between anantarupanissaya-paccaya and asevana-paccaya? <> From what I have learned, emotion can both block or enhance specific memory. Like a person who was a victim in severe disastrous situation like a war, earthquake, bombing the building, some of them always get flashback or startle response when something remind them of their previous experience e.g. watching battle movie. Another thing called false memory, in some people they have never had the experience or in the situation but if someone keep telling or suggesting them what might happen in the past, they then making up a false memory. Thanks for your input. <<. A friend's phone number can become a second nature after we have been calling for a while. I still remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even though I am not using it anymore. I still remember (the Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was when I just learned how to drive.>> This is a very complicated matter. Hard for me to cut. Explicit is so explicit and procedural (implicit) is kind of second nature. And when you put vitakka and vicara cetasika plus manasikara cetasika together, make me have to really think what exactly the function of each cetasika. Could you give me an explanation and/or analogy? When we think, definitely sanna is a requirement. We thinking with word, vocabulary. Thinking is very automatic, we think all the time. When we try to recall something, I think that is an intention, so cetana is also involved in that process. Are also vitakka-vicara with the intention to recall something? I tried to look up the paccaya for thing like a tree. Mango seed always gives a mango tree. Kamma has nothing to do with plant but genetic factor does contribute to the similarity and inheritance of tree. I think I have read this somewhere in Tipitaka, and I could not come up the term. As Kom mention not every phenomena is a result of kamma. Like in case of diseases, not all of them are b/c previous kamma, I think. Well, kamma is one of an acintita (unconjecturable) anyway. <> Enchante. Num 4239 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:26am Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > Saturday is tomorrow for you. I don't think we have to wait > that long to hear from Tan A. Sujin! > > My explanation [waiting for correction from K. Amara/KS] > from memory is that: Dear K. Kom, This is great, I hope you don't mind my asking a few question in preparation for tomorrow: > 1) The 5-dvara vithi cittas (vipaka, kiriya, kusala or > akusala) all experience paramatha dhamma [1 of the 7 rupas] > that is still there (but rises before the vithi cittas > themselves). > > 2) The cittas of the same 5-dvara vithi (14, discounting > bavangha) cognizes the same aramana. The aramana doesn't > change within the vithi. > > 3) The javana cittas rising in the same 5-dvara vithi, if > rising with Sati (satipatthana), can only cognizes 1 of the > 7 rupas. So the 7 (or less in specific cases) javana of the 5-dvara is where sati arises within the vithi, and since they are identical within the vithi except for their strength, each would have sati arising with it as well as have the same object which must still be extant at the time of their arising, am I right? > 4) The cittas of the same mano-dvara vithi (10 or 8 some > time and some bhumi discounting the last 2) also cognizes > only 1 aramana for the entire vithi, with the exception of > the magga vithi where more than one aramanas are experienced > in the vithi. > > 5) The mano-dvara vithi rising after the 5-dvara vithi, > after the bhavanga, also cognizes the same aramana [1 of 7 > rupas] as the 5-dvara vithi. Although still cognizing > paramatha aramana, the aramana in fact has already fallen > (at least two citta-moments ago, counting the two necessary > bhavangha). This is the jist of the question that Howard > brought up. How could the aramana be paramatha unless > something unless we are seeing a manifestation of sanna. > Note that all the cittas within the mano-dvara vithi ALL > rise with Vittaka (discounting some of the jhana cittas). Therefore all mano dvara cita are thoughts (and memory since sanna arises with all citta, which is not the case of vittaka), is this what you are saying? (In fact it makes things clearer to me.) And of course thoughts can have anything as object, even pannatti. Is that why the ongoing arising of the present arammana still considered the 'present' arammana? Because as it is happening right now before our eyes as we sit in front of the computer it also arises and falls away each fraction of the speed of light and we still see it as a continuous picture, even when there is thinking and bhavanga etc. interposing in countless numbers. Only in theory and in the moments of nana would their true complete separation arise, first as separation of the sense and mind dvara in the first vipassana nana. Which forms the basis of further studies, leading to the experience of the arising and falling away of the arammana in the next levels of nana, as I see it. > 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with the 5-dvara > vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may > cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana. If it is > paramattha [one of the namas, since we already discount the > rupas], the aramana again has alrady fallen at least 2 > citta-moments ago. The aramana in such a vithi cannot be > the namas rising in the same vithi (since the entire vithi > cognizes the same aramana); therefore, the aramana in such a > vithi must rise in a vithi preceding it. Hence, except for > nibhanna, citta can only cognizes nama that is no longer > there. The chracteristic experienced is still considered > paramattha even if it is no longer there. Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even within the vithi citta it cannot have fallen away during the process, could it? And as it is not a rupa it could only arise through the mind, of course. When you say 'The chracteristic experienced is still considered paramattha even if it is no longer there.' I would also think the speed of the arising and falling away is such that normally we do not see the 'no longer there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily life, which is why it is still 'considered paramattha', is that right? Thanks, K. Kom, this enhances the fact that the speed at which it all happens makes us all live in a world of thoughts, of memory, at 17 times the speed of light at least who can stop a citta from arising or 'change' anything that has conditions to arise? And who could ever fathom what it is all about and teach us about it but the Buddha and all the Buddha of the past? Which is why the Dhamma merits careful consideration and respect and I thank all who teach me anything about it very much indeed. Thanks especially for the explanations, will check with Tan A. and report if there are any differences. > K. Amara, I would also love to hear Tan A. Sujin's > explanations of sanna and vittaka also. I keep hearing from > different dhama conversations something like this: when we > "don't remember" something that we want to remember, it > means Vitaka is not applying on the desired aramana. There > is sanna arising at every moment, but the rising sanna only > marks the same aramana of the entire vithi even when we are > not remembering. That's why the conjecture about sanna > marks, but vitakka remembers. Note also that I make some > differentiation between "marking" and "remembering", > hopefully consistently across all the messages. I will ask her about it, but as I see it and in my experience, the sanna is there but I have a very difficult time when it does not arise spontaneously (in a timely fashion) but when viriya arises with strength to think of the sanna, sometimes I can remember (names, numbers etc.). By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises with all mano dvara citta as well, doesn't it. I'll try to remember to ask her tomorrow and report! Thanks again, Amara 4240 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:30am Subject: Re: Observing Consciousness --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear K. Amara et Al. > > 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with > > the 5-dvara > > vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may > > cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana. If it is > > paramattha [one of the namas, since we already > > discount the > > rupas], > > Looks like my counting is defective, like usual. There are > still other 21 rupas left that can be only experienced > through the mano-vithi. For each of these other 21 rupas, I > am uncertain of when it rises and falls in relative to the > "observing" citta. Will add it to the list of questions for tomorrow! I think this reminds me never to speculate in matters of the citta, no one could be as precise and thorough as the Buddha and one should always check the sources otherwise there will always be glitches in the picture as a whole. It is an extremely difficult and intricate subject and one can see why it rarely is taught in samsara and will always be the first dhamma to disappear of all Buddhist teachings. But it sure shows how things could never be controled, doesn't it!!! I'm glad we still have the chance to learn it, and thanks to anyone who can teach me, Anumodana to all who study, Amara 4241 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:38am Subject: Re: : Sanna > Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not so clear what is the > arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta. In deep sleep we don't > remember, (may be better say recall) anything but sanna still does it's > function. Cher M. Num, Apparently 'Citta is able to recognize in itself,' but at a different 'khana', in its extreme speed. The sanna of the bhavanga recalls the arammana of the past life's marana sanna vithi, which never appears through any of the present life's six dvara, which is why when one is comatose or in a deep sleep one can't remember anything, it doesn't appear even through the mind dvara, (except in the rare cases of those who have the jhana to recall past lives). > Could u tell me what the different between anantarupanissaya-paccaya and > asevana-paccaya? Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to arise somewhere in the future. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for the same kind of citta to arise with the exact same arammana within the same vithi or process, I think. Right, K. Kom? A bientot! Amara 4242 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 0:56pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear K. Num, > -----Original Message----- > From: Num [mailto:Num] > 1. During the 17 moments of citta, the rupa which > has arisen still not yet > fallen away. If you mean the rupa aramana of which each of the vithi (14 out of 17) is cognizing... > > 2. Only dvi-panca-vinnana-citta has rupa as a > direct arammana in all 17 > moments?? No, all cittas in the vithi have paramatha rupa as an aramana. The observation here is that not only the citta cognizes paramatha dhamma, the dhamma has not yet fallen away, unlike some cases. > > (2a) Dvi-panca-vinnana-citta, has the seven > minimal universal cetasika. What > does > cetana cetasika, which is kamma-paccaya, do in > all vipaka citta?? If you read NVG's Conditions: http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf, you will see that Cetana is a pacaya (conditioning) dhamma for many (paccayapunna?) conditioned dhammas while it is there. The most distinctive pacaya of cetana, kamma pacaya, works in two different ways: a) is saha-jata-kamma paccaya to all the co-arising namas; it conditions by "telling" all other namas to complete its functions. b) is nana-kanika-kamma paccaya to future dhamma(s?); it causes Vipaka dhammas to rise. > (2b) what is an arammana for the first > bhavanga-citta, atita-bhavaga?? The same aramana as the last life's marana-vithi cittas (Khun Amara said this)! > > 3. Sati can have kusula or akusula as an > arammana. Sati cannot arise at the > same moment with akusula but always with all > kusula citta as a 19 universal > sobhana-cetasika. Akusula citta can be an > arammana for kusula citta as a > arammana-paccaya but sati is able to be aware of > akusula citta as an > arammana of citta that sati coarises. we agree so far. > I think > sati can be aware of only the > present moment of current citta that sati > coarises with??? If the sati is cognizing a nama, the nama cannot be any of the namma that the sati is co-arising with: it can be only namas that have already fallen. kom 4243 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:26pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi, Kom, It's great to see you so active on the list..you're doing a great job! I was using essence and sabhava interchangeably (I think), also for this we can use 'nature' or even 'characteristic' perhaps.....the function would be closely related as this would be an aspect but not quite the same....infinitely small existence sounds like a concept to me..yes? no? But p'haps when there is understanding of the rise and fall of seeing we could talk about knowledge of this, I'm not sure. What do you think? I have to confess that the term 'sabhava' is a very new one for me and one that I'm only now becoming a little more familiar with....so I'm on a learning curve here. I've never discussed it with KS but will doublecheck when we get to Bkk over the May 1st long w'end hopefully. (Rob, Teng, any chance of joining then?) Let me add a little more from that Vism ref I gave yest. and then let me know if there are any good nits to pick! Jim may have further comments too (here or off-list if he prefers) and Jim, pls excuse my abuse of Pali in the post..mixing sabhava and pneumonia and not attempting to show diacritic symbols..;-( sabhava...'..it is narrower than dhamma. It often roughly corresponds to dhatu (element) and lakkhana(characteristic), but less nearly to the vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature), or to rasa(function). The Athasalani observes: 'it is the individual essence, or the generality, of such and such dhammas that is called their characteristic' (DhsA.63); on which the Mula Tika comments: 'The individual essence consisting in, say, hardness as that of earth, or touching as that of contact, is not common to all dhammas....' Actually there's a lot of detail here and following and if I had time I'd follow the cross refs too. There is a note at the end that says the Sanskrit equivalent, sabhava, had a 'great vogue and chequered history in philosophical discusions on the Indian mainland'. To my understanding, they couldn't poosibly have the same meaning because Pali sabhava, essence is inherently reflecting the anatta characteristic of the reality whereas the Sanskrit one would be reflecting a thing, a self, atta.... As I said, Kom, I'm just learning as I write. Best rgds, Sarah p.s. in the list of names at the top, Des was meant to be included too! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > In your passage to Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, > and Num, > does "essence" refer to sabhava, functions, > infinitely small > existence, etc., or strictly sabhava? > > Anumoddhana. > > kom > 4244 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi Howard, let's see if we can get this sorted out- --- Howard wrote: > ================================== > It seems that you are using 'essence' here to > mean little more than > lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have > characteristics. But I > don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the > same meaning as > 'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. Did the last quote from the Vism help? Sabhava, essence, characteristic I'd use pretty interchangeably and Vism says 'roughly corresponds to'.. Essence or own-being > or self-nature or sabhava > is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by > virtue of their being > impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. You are equating essence with self-nature which I'm not. I fully u'stand where you come from on this and it's not easy. i'm also aware that other (later?) texts seem to conflict with the use of sabhava in the early commentaries and Malindapanha. I think you could just consider its use her as being close to characteristic or lakkhana if that helps. >At > the same time, they have > characteristics, being conditioned. The > unconditioned dhamma has no essence, > being an absence - the absence of all conditions, > but, being empty of all > conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also > without characteristic. This > is the way it seems to me. When it comes to nibbana, I fully u'stand what you're saying, but I start getting out of my depth, so I think I'll pass to other more enlightened beings here....just to repeat from the Vism..'Of nibbana, which has its own individual essence, the mula Tika says: 'Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of consciousness alambitum) by one who has not realized it...' > If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having > of a characteristic > feature, the only problem I have is that I think > that is an odd usage for the > term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the > having of a feature in an > essential, unconditional manner, then I have a > bigger problem with it. I would say it means having an essential, conditioned manner with very specific characteristics for an instant and then gone. For > example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But > that non-fluidity is due > to various factors including crystalline stucture, > temperature, and lack of > compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes > in conditions, the > characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which > point *we* no longer use > the word/concept 'ice'). I'd say, what we take for being the ice are a collection of different rupas, each changing rapidly, each consisting of an essenceor nature with characteristics (eg temperature) for a miniscule moment and then gone. As a result of eye base, seeing, visible object, sanna, vitakka and many, many conditions, the rupas appearing in the visible object are taken for an ice, a thing, a substance.... Not sure this quite answers you.... but after sorting out compassion, I'm sure we can tackle this one..! My busy w'end is approaching fast, so pls excuse delays for any replies....It's been great having so much contact recently with you and Dan again....I wonder what's happened to Bruce??? Rob, wasn't it April that michael J said he might return?! pls keep challenging me, Howard, as you really know how to!!! Sarah 4245 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:13pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > So the 7 (or less in specific cases) javana of > the 5-dvara is where > sati arises within the vithi, and since they are > identical within the > vithi except for their strength, each would have > sati arising with it > as well as have the same object which must still > be extant at the time > of their arising, am I right? Yes, that would fit my understandings. > Therefore all mano dvara cita are thoughts (and They are not thoughts from the standpoint that some cognize paramatha dhammas (nama or rupas), and when they cognize paramattha dhamma, some (all except in magga-vithi?) cognize paramattha dhammas that have already fallen away. This is the interesting part: a citta can cognize a paramatha characteristic of a dhamma even when the cognized dhamma has already fallen away (is not extant when the cognizing dhamma is arising). When I think of thoughts, I think of the namas cognizing a pannatti aramana. I am not sure if this convention is commonly used. > memory since sanna > arises with all citta, which is not the case of > vittaka), is this what > you are saying? (In fact it makes things clearer > to me.) There are also cittas in the 5-dvara vithi that rise with vittaka, but these cittas clearly cognize extant paramatha dhammas and can't be considered as thoughts (by my definitions). I can't really guess at how the cittas can cognize the paramatha characteristic of a dhamma after it has fallen. Using the memory theory works in some cases, but not in the others. ANALYSIS ======== Hypothesis: H1) All co-arising namas cognize the same aramana H2) Sanna marks (remembers its present aramana), and doesn't really remember (recall past aramanas). Working case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already-fallen rupa [1 of 7, also experienced through the 5-dvara vithi.] How it works: While each of 5-dvara vithi citta is arising, sanna is co-arising with the citta cognizing the paramatha rupa. The mano-dvara citta rising subsequently cognize the paramatha dhamma as a result of the paramatha characteristics being carried over from one nama to the next as a result of having sanna. Non-Working Case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already fallen namas (a) in the previous vithi. Why doesn't it work: 1) While (a) is rising, its co-arising sanna is not cognizing the co-arising namas; it is cognizing what the citta is cognizing, which is not the co-arising namas. The sanna is not marking the co-arising namas. 2) If sanna doesn't mark, how does the paramatha characteristic of (a) be carried over to be experienced by the subsequently rising namas? The analysis' weakest point is my understading of how sanna works (H2). If I have to guess at why the namas can cognize paramatha characteristic of something that is no longer there, I would guess the ability to cognize is a function of the combined (complex) pacayas leading to the cognition, and not just the function fo the sanna alone. Of course, I can use this explanation to cover all risings/fallings of all dhammas (except for nibhanna!). Not very specific, maybe not very helpful. > And of > course thoughts can have anything as object, even > pannatti. Is that > why the ongoing arising of the present arammana > still considered the > 'present' arammana? I think it is "present" because the citta still cognizes the paramatha characteristic of a dhamma, even if the dhamma has already fallen away. > Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even > within the vithi citta it > cannot have fallen away during the process, could > it? No, it could not. > And as it is > not a rupa it could only arise through the mind, > of course. I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind. I think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize nibbhana. > When you > say 'The chracteristic experienced is still > considered paramattha even > if it is no longer there.' I would also think the > speed of the arising > and falling away is such that normally we do not > see the 'no longer > there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily > life, Yes, probably why we have such strong atta tendencies. And which is why penetrating the falling of dhamma is a high-level vipassana nana. > which is why it > is still 'considered paramattha', is that right? I am still unsure about this part. If I haven't covey this already: I am not sure explicitly how the paramatha characteristics are carried over to be experienced by later namas. > this enhances the fact that the > speed at which it all > happens makes us all live in a world of thoughts, > of memory, at 17 > times the speed of light at least who can stop a > citta from arising or > 'change' anything that has conditions to arise? > And who could ever > fathom what it is all about and teach us about it > but the Buddha and > all the Buddha of the past? Which is why the > Dhamma merits careful > consideration and respect and I thank all who > teach me anything about > it very much indeed. Thanks especially for the > explanations, will > check with Tan A. and report if there are any > differences. Anumoddhana. > By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises > with all mano dvara > citta as well, doesn't it. This is from http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html 4. Viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that relentlessly perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma. It arises with 73 citta exempting 16 ahetuka-citta comprising 1 panca-dvaravajjana-citta, the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, 2 sampaticchanna-citta, and santirana-citta because these 16 citta perform their function without viriya-cetasika as paccaya If you remember, the 3 Santirana-citta also functions as Tatalampana citta, which also rises in the mano-dvara vithi. So the last two (if applicable) cittas in the mano-dvara vithi rises without viriya. kom 4246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Hi Num, Have you got Nina VG's 'Cetasikas'? you'll find it very helpful if not. Here she quotes from the Atthasalani (1, Part 1V, Ch1): 'perception has the characteristic of perceiving by an act of general inclusion, and the function of making marks as a condition for repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering), as when woodcutters 'perceive' logs and so forth. Its manifestation is the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, as in the case of blind persons who 'see' an elephant. Or, it has briefness as manifestation, like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate the object. Its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared, like tyhe perception which arises in young deer mistaking scarecrows for men.' Scarecrows are pretty old then! So sanna 'marks' and recognizes the object. As discussed, it is a universal cetasika and arises with every citta, Erik, (including kusala and akusala according to the citta). As I mentioned, even if we are being 'forgetful', there is still sanna marking the object, depending on conditions what is marked. Num, I expect this has been answered by now as I'm rather behind with my reading...the object of patisandhi citta, cuti citta and bhavanga citta is the same as the object experienced by javana cittas before the last cuti citta of the previous life. Num, vitakka and vicara don't arise with the dvipancavinnanas and have different characteristics from sanna, but what we conventionally called recognition or memory would involve plenty of both and a lot else besides! In very brief, vitakka has the characteristic of 'directing the mind onto an object (mounting the mind on its object) (Vism.). Again Nina VG refers to the Atthasalani (Bk1, part 1V, Ch1, 114): 'This commentary uses a simile of someone who wants to 'ascend' the king's palace and depends on a relative or friend dear to the king to chieve this. In the same way the citta which is accompanied by vitakka depends on the latter in order to 'ascend' to the object, to be directed to the object. Vitakka leads the citta to the object so that citta can cognize it.' Num, hope this helps. Apologies if Kom or Amara have already given you these details. Must run!!;-) Sarah --- Num wrote: > Hi again Kom and K.Amara, > > Kom, what do you mean by "mark" the object. Could > you explain a little more? > You mean recognition/perception? In > Chakku-vinnana-citta phassa-cetasika > contacts visual object but recognition or perception > is at later citta not at > a vinnana-citta moment. > > < in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each > sanna > arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same > object as > the citta.>> > > Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not > so clear what is the > arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta. In > deep sleep we don't > remember, (may be better say recall) anything but > sanna still does it's > function. > > < to cetana, the intention > to do something in order to repeat and possibly > intensify the desired > effects, which is a > major paccaya: kamma paccaya. Kamma paccaya in its > turn can be > categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya > paccaya>> > > Could u tell me what the different between > anantarupanissaya-paccaya and > asevana-paccaya? > > < in a 'normal' brain, > couldn't it,>> > > From what I have learned, emotion can both block or > enhance specific memory. > Like a person who was a victim in severe disastrous > situation like a war, > earthquake, bombing the building, some of them > always get flashback or > startle response when something remind them of their > previous experience e.g. > watching battle movie. > > Another thing called false memory, in some people > they have never had the > experience or in the situation but if someone keep > telling or suggesting them > what might happen in the past, they then making up a > false memory. > Thanks for your input. > > <<. A friend's phone number can become a second > nature after we have been calling for a while. I > still > remember some phone number from some 10 years ago > even > though I am not using it anymore. I still remember > (the > Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of > driving was > when I just learned how to drive.>> > > This is a very complicated matter. Hard for me to > cut. Explicit is so > explicit and procedural (implicit) is kind of second > nature. And when you > put vitakka and vicara cetasika plus manasikara > cetasika together, make me > have to really think what exactly the function of > each cetasika. Could you > give me an explanation and/or analogy? When we > think, definitely sanna is a > requirement. We thinking with word, vocabulary. > Thinking is very automatic, > we think all the time. When we try to recall > something, I think that is an > intention, so cetana is also involved in that > process. Are also > vitakka-vicara with the intention to recall > something? > > I tried to look up the paccaya for thing like a > tree. Mango seed always gives > a mango tree. Kamma has nothing to do with plant > but genetic factor does > contribute to the similarity and inheritance of > tree. I think I have read > this somewhere in Tipitaka, and I could not come up > the term. As Kom > mention not every phenomena is a result of kamma. > Like in case of diseases, > not all of them are b/c previous kamma, I think. > Well, kamma is one of an > acintita (unconjecturable) anyway. > > > <> > > Enchante. > > Num > 4247 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > Well I have good friends here but no one is English > actually, I don't mean > offense but that's is the truth. > Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-) > But not coldblooded please! All my friends are warm-blooded, especially the ones on this list (INCLUDING Rob!!). Seriously, I'll try to give you a few English contacts later off-list so you can see for yourself! > > I told you that my brains were not palatable for the > mental set up of this > group. ;-) Your brains are very palatable and we need a good mixture of dishes...Yours provide the delicacies that Kom's and Erik's lack...;-) (hope that's not provocative!) > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but > don't worry I understand > you are far too much busy. > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far > and I don't count on any > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of > coffee as I am Brazilian. You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a response..) > > What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I > cannot neither suppress > nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs > altogether to my past > accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and > try to develop > mindfulness about it as regarding everything else. > Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed > my viewpoint, therefore > difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the > very concept of > 'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying > frozen emotions and non > commitment in interactions of any kind. You've got some good points here, Cybele! > > No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply > 'understand ' - this > comment is just a further elaboration to explain it > but is not the awareness > of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it > intellectually a > posteriori. > How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already > passed, is just a memory, > is not present anymore. > And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta > and dukkha invites somehow > the right mental conditions for this understanding > to arise in my experience > but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on > many different factors. > Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool > and never improved > genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not, > how could we > understanding anything at all? Yes, what's gone is gone and it is only the present understanding that is of any importance. I think I'll pass on the strategies for now;-) I do agree though, some tasty brains can be a good condition for mindfulness... yum! > > Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you > call self or what we > can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of > thought, emotions, > sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this > understanding. > Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far > as I am aware or nama > rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is > mindfulness. > The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be > uprooted so easily - this is > just thinking a wise conception of non self but you > can experience it > directly only when the right conditions arises. True, no easy up-rooting...and so easy to take thinking for understanding. May I just add, PANNA or rt understanding can experience it when the conditions arise.. > Therefore understanding will be there and drop by > drop will fill up the > mental container of wisdom but it's a very long > process eradicating > ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of > awakening can happen > anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement > in that very moment are > overcome by awareness. Excellent!;-) > > We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant > wishful thinking right now > Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial > but we are seeking for it > DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in > craving for results. > But we have to focuse our minds on it so far. Hmmmm.......;-( > I like you too Sarah. > It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so > to speak - I am not ok > but that's ok. I can only endure. I hope we can help on the list, Cybele and my warm-hearted friends in London can too... > > I am sure you are not starving around here... No, these days, I'm very full and bloated most the time! In fact my eyes are definitely bigger than my mouth! > You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse > oblige teasing 'gringos'. > ;-) Keep it up, it does us all good! > Best Wishes to you too > pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong > Kong otherwise I could > have met you. Pls come again soon and I'd love to spend time with you! I even have a friend who wants Italian lessons here. > And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators. Me too, though I thought Erik's 'bullshit filters' was rather good, but a little impolite for a respectable list, don't you think? Take good care of yourself, Cybele, and thank you for the light relief after sabhavas and sannas! Pls do ignore any of the brains that are too technical for your taste-buds (including mine at times)! Sarah 4248 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:03pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness > When I think of thoughts, I think of the namas cognizing a > pannatti aramana. I am not sure if this convention is > commonly used. Dear K. Kom, We differ here also, then, because to me it is when the citta thinks of anything at all whether pannatti or paramattha. > > memory since sanna > > arises with all citta, which is not the case of > > vittaka), is this what > > you are saying? (In fact it makes things clearer > > to me.) > > There are also cittas in the 5-dvara vithi that rise with > vittaka, but these cittas clearly cognize extant paramatha > dhammas and can't be considered as thoughts (by my > definitions). > > I can't really guess at how the cittas can cognize the > paramatha characteristic of a dhamma after it has fallen. > Using the memory theory works in some cases, but not in the > others. > > ANALYSIS > ======== > > Hypothesis: > H1) All co-arising namas cognize the same aramana > H2) Sanna marks (remembers its present aramana), and doesn't > really remember (recall past aramanas). Another disagreement, it has to be able to recall past memory of things that it had marked otherwise it would not recognize it again, and we would never be able to tell what things are from past experiences. > Working case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already-fallen rupa > [1 of 7, also experienced through the 5-dvara vithi.] > > How it works: > While each of 5-dvara vithi citta is arising, sanna is > co-arising with the citta cognizing the paramatha rupa. The > mano-dvara citta rising subsequently cognize the paramatha > dhamma as a result of the paramatha characteristics being > carried over from one nama to the next as a result of having > sanna. > > Non-Working Case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already fallen > namas (a) in the previous vithi. > Why doesn't it work: > 1) While (a) is rising, its co-arising sanna is not > cognizing the co-arising namas; it is cognizing what the > citta is cognizing, which is not the co-arising namas. The > sanna is not marking the co-arising namas. > 2) If sanna doesn't mark, how does the paramatha > characteristic of (a) be carried over to be experienced by > the subsequently rising namas? > > The analysis' weakest point is my understading of how sanna > works (H2). To my mind it does both, it marks something which is 'new' to it and recognizes what it has already marked before. > If I have to guess at why the namas can cognize paramatha > characteristic of something that is no longer there, I would > guess the ability to cognize is a function of the combined > (complex) pacayas leading to the cognition, and not just the > function fo the sanna alone. Of course, I can use this > explanation to cover all risings/fallings of all dhammas > (except for nibhanna!). Not very specific, maybe not very > helpful. Again here I believe that 'what is no longer there' has to still be arising and falling as the citta arise to experience it, either 'parallel' or simultaneously to the citta in the case of the rupa, or alternately in the case of the nama to be experienced by sati. For example the rupa that had fallen away three days ago would count only as memory, while the seeing or visible object would still be paramattha arammana of the present citta althogh in the case of the mano dvara the 'real' arammana has to have fallen away already, which still appears not to have since it has also arisen again and fallen away again in such rapid succession. > > And of > > course thoughts can have anything as object, even > > pannatti. Is that > > why the ongoing arising of the present arammana > > still considered the > > 'present' arammana? > > I think it is "present" because the citta still cognizes the > paramatha characteristic of a dhamma, even if the dhamma has > already fallen away. > > > Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even > > within the vithi citta it > > cannot have fallen away during the process, could > > it? > > No, it could not. > > > And as it is > > not a rupa it could only arise through the mind, > > of course. > > I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind. I > think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize > nibbhana. Absolutely, my mistake, nibbana doesn't arise or fall away, and can be experienced only through the mano dvara. > > When you > > say 'The chracteristic experienced is still > > considered paramattha even > > if it is no longer there.' I would also think the > > speed of the arising > > and falling away is such that normally we do not > > see the 'no longer > > there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily > > life, > > Yes, probably why we have such strong atta tendencies. And > which is why penetrating the falling of dhamma is a > high-level vipassana nana. > > > which is why it > > is still 'considered paramattha', is that right? > > I am still unsure about this part. If I haven't covey this > already: I am not sure explicitly how the paramatha > characteristics are carried over to be experienced by later > namas. Will see if we can clarufy this tomorrow > > By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises > > with all mano dvara > > citta as well, doesn't it. > > This is from http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html > > 4. Viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that relentlessly > perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma. It arises with 73 > citta exempting 16 ahetuka-citta comprising 1 > panca-dvaravajjana-citta, the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, 2 > sampaticchanna-citta, and santirana-citta because these 16 > citta perform their function without viriya-cetasika as > paccaya > > If you remember, the 3 Santirana-citta also functions as > Tatalampana citta, which also rises in the mano-dvara vithi. > So the last two (if applicable) cittas in the mano-dvara > vithi rises without viriya. Thanks for the explanations, anumodana, Amara 4249 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata" Dear Mettajon, Your very occasional posts and details are always very helpful and well-researched. Hope to hear more! Sarah --- Metta Jon wrote: > A friend of mine e-mailed me a few weeks ago, about > Venerable > Dhammapiyo...it seems that he was asking for people > to offer > their definitions of the word "Tathagata". > > When i am translating texts, or reading them to > others, i usually > substitute the word "Buddha" for "Tathagata", as i > consider them > to be virtually interchangeable. But, if asked to > define the word, > that requires some thought. > > Traditionally, it has been translated as "the One > who has thus gone" > or "the One who has thus come". I take the former > to mean "one who > has gone beyone suffering" or "one who has gone to > the Other Shore > (Nibbana/Nirvana)." I take the latter tradition to > mean "one who has > come to realization of Dhamma". > > Some other translations i have seen are "Wayfarer" > (which sounds odd > to me), and "the Perfect One" which would sound > egotistical to many > ears....although one might define "Tathagatha" as > "one who has thus > come to perfection" (ie, one who has practiced the > "Perfections"-- > the Paramis) and who has arrived at the culmination > of that practice: > namely, Buddhahood). > > Just a few thoughts, for whatever they're worth. > > Sukhita hotha, > > Metta Jon > 4250 From: Erik Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:23pm Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but > > don't worry I understand > > you are far too much busy. > > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far > > and I don't count on any > > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of > > coffee as I am Brazilian. > > You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a > little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a > response..) Whoa! Sorry about that one, both of you. I meant to reply but got bogged down. I can't keep up with 50% of what I'd like to and have to pick & choose. I prefer coffee to tea anyway. But, Cybele, I am no good at talking the language of experience except in specific situations, like X, Y, Z happened. I do not like using my own homegrown language for the Dharma, and prefer to stick to "by the book" interpretations and explanations. This is one reason I think it's very useful to study Abhidhamma. It gives a very precise context in which to put things. > Me too, though I thought Erik's 'bullshit filters' was > rather good, but a little impolite for a respectable > list, don't you think? Impolite? I thought I was paying quite the compliment to everyone's respectability with that one! 4251 From: Erik Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: Kom, > I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind. I > think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize > nibbhana. A question that's bothered me some. How does the Abhidhamma account for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can "cognize" nibbana? Erik 4252 From: Howard Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi, Sarah - Thanks for this post. The main thing I gain from it is the Theravadin commentarial sense of 'sabbhava' as being closer to 'lakkhana' than to essence or own-being. This pleases me! The Mahayanist use of the Sanskrit 'svabhava' is to mean own-being/essence/self-nature, and is definitely substantialist in sense. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/23/01 1:05:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sarah writes: > Hi Howard, > > let's see if we can get this sorted out- > > --- Howard wrote: > > ================================== > > It seems that you are using 'essence' here to > > mean little more than > > lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have > > characteristics. But I > > don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the > > same meaning as > > 'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. > > Did the last quote from the Vism help? Sabhava, > essence, characteristic I'd use pretty interchangeably > and Vism says 'roughly corresponds to'.. > > Essence or own-being > > or self-nature or sabhava > > is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by > > virtue of their being > > impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. > > You are equating essence with self-nature which I'm > not. I fully u'stand where you come from on this and > it's not easy. i'm also aware that other (later?) > texts seem to conflict with the use of sabhava in the > early commentaries and Malindapanha. I think you could > just consider its use her as being close to > characteristic or lakkhana if that helps. > >At > > the same time, they have > > characteristics, being conditioned. The > > unconditioned dhamma has no essence, > > being an absence - the absence of all conditions, > > but, being empty of all > > conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also > > without characteristic. This > > is the way it seems to me. > > When it comes to nibbana, I fully u'stand what you're > saying, but I start getting out of my depth, so I > think I'll pass to other more enlightened beings > here....just to repeat from the Vism..'Of nibbana, > which has its own individual essence, the mula Tika > says: 'Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of > its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of > consciousness alambitum) by one who has not realized > it...' > > > If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having > > of a characteristic > > feature, the only problem I have is that I think > > that is an odd usage for the > > term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the > > having of a feature in an > > essential, unconditional manner, then I have a > > bigger problem with it. > > I would say it means having an essential, conditioned > manner with very specific characteristics for an > instant and then gone. > > For > > example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But > > that non-fluidity is due > > to various factors including crystalline stucture, > > temperature, and lack of > > compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes > > in conditions, the > > characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which > > point *we* no longer use > > the word/concept 'ice'). > > I'd say, what we take for being the ice are a > collection of different rupas, each changing rapidly, > each consisting of an essenceor nature with > characteristics (eg temperature) for a miniscule > moment and then gone. As a result of eye base, seeing, > visible object, sanna, vitakka and many, many > conditions, the rupas appearing in the visible object > are taken for an ice, a thing, a substance.... > > Not sure this quite answers you.... but after sorting > out compassion, I'm sure we can tackle this one..! > > My busy w'end is approaching fast, so pls excuse > delays for any replies....It's been great having so > much contact recently with you and Dan again....I > wonder what's happened to Bruce??? > > Rob, wasn't it April that michael J said he might > return?! > > pls keep challenging me, Howard, as you really know > how to!!! > > Sarah > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4253 From: Howard Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness Hi, Erik (and Kom) - In a message dated 3/23/01 7:45:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, Erik writes: > --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > > Kom, > > > I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind. I > > think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize > > nibbhana. > > A question that's bothered me some. How does the Abhidhamma account > for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can "cognize" nibbana? > > Erik > =============================== In an excellent book (whose title escapes me, and I can't check at the moment), Peter Harvey gives considerable evidence from the Pali suttas to identify nibbana with "unmanifestive discernment (vi~n~nana)", that discernment likened to a radiance going all around, going on forever, without encountering an object (aramana). It is the unconditioned mode of awareness that is the absence of objects. If this is valid, then "cognizing" of nibbana is really more of *becoming* of nibbana, by letting go of objects. Entry to, or cognizing of, nibbana would be a transition from presence of objects to absence of objects. (But not discerning objects would not be the same as unconsciousness either.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4254 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Dear howard, the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the change of dhammas. robert --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Thanks for this post. The main thing I gain from it is > the Theravadin > commentarial sense of 'sabbhava' as being closer to 'lakkhana' > than to > essence or own-being. This pleases me! The Mahayanist use of > the Sanskrit > 'svabhava' is to mean own-being/essence/self-nature, and is > definitely > substantialist in sense. > > With metta, > Howard > 4255 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 6:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Erik How it comes that you confront the subject about my IGNORED mail to you eluding it again? Reply in the context: >--- Sarah Procter Abbott >wrote: CYBELE WROTE: > > > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but > > > don't worry I understand > > > you are far too much busy. > > > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far > > > and I don't count on any > > > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of > > > coffee as I am Brazilian. SARAH REPLIED: > > You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a > > little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a > > response..) ERIC RESPONSE: >Whoa! Sorry about that one, both of you. I meant to reply but got >bogged down. I can't keep up with 50% of what I'd like to and have to >pick & choose. I prefer coffee to tea anyway. Then I suppose I was right dear Erik, you have chosen to IGNORE ME. It means that I am not your 'cup of coffee' anyway it seems. And means also that you are not so compassionate, don't you think that you are being discriminative with me? > >But, Cybele, I am no good at talking the language of experience >except in specific situations, like X, Y, Z happened. I do not like >using my own homegrown language for the Dharma, and prefer to stick >to "by the book" interpretations and explanations. This is one reason >I think it's very useful to study Abhidhamma. It gives a very precise >context in which to put things. Yes Erik but if you do not apply this precious teachings in your everyday opportunities of building up right understanding, what is the purpose of studying Dhamma? The 'precise context' is real life, the present moment, here and now! I am interested and commited with Dhamma to improve my knowledge and my knowledge can have significance only when there is foundation in REAL experience, otherwise we are only indulging in a vigorous intellectual exercize. Intellectual fun, dialetic pleasure. A very subtle, refined delusion but nevertheless delusion as my so-called, so-condemned passionate feelings. What changes? Without experience in my viewpoint there is no genuine UNDERSTANDING, only brain twisting and intellectual enjoyment. Practically we are just masturbating with life if you allow me the term. Personally I prefer the real thing. In Dhamma as in private issues. It's like tasting good Brazilian coffee and a surrogate. I rather enjoy the 'original' taste of Dhamma: practice. Therefore if you want to reconsider and take a mouthful of Brazilian coffee I am not running away. ;-) Cybele 4256 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Sarah > >Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > > Well I have good friends here but no one is English > > actually, I don't mean > > offense but that's is the truth. > > Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-) > > But not coldblooded please! > >All my friends are warm-blooded, especially the ones >on this list (INCLUDING Rob!!). I don't know about others friends in the list but I am very fond of Robert and I entirely agree that he is not the cold, aloof anglosaxon that is a role that he very much likes to play sometimes. ;-))) >Seriously, I'll try to >give you a few English contacts later off-list so you >can see for yourself! Thank you I got your mail off list; but do you think that this people is not going to be perplexed when I call, out of nowhere jumping inside their lives? I am in a 'bed WITHOUT breakfast' and the owner is an English man so aloof that we don't talk with each other but leave written messages to communicate...I am joking, we have completely different 'schedules'; however his fridge is warmer than him. :-) > > > > I told you that my brains were not palatable for the > > mental set up of this > > group. ;-) > >Your brains are very palatable and we need a good >mixture of dishes...Yours provide the delicacies that >Kom's and Erik's lack...;-) (hope that's not >provocative!) I HOPE IT IS provocative!!!!! > > > You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but > > don't worry I understand > > you are far too much busy. > > And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far > > and I don't count on any > > response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of > > coffee as I am Brazilian. > >You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a >little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a >response..) Well the response was that he intend to ignore my message anyway. > > > > What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I > > cannot neither suppress > > nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs > > altogether to my past > > accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and > > try to develop > > mindfulness about it as regarding everything else. > > Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed > > my viewpoint, therefore > > difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the > > very concept of > > 'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying > > frozen emotions and non > > commitment in interactions of any kind. > >You've got some good points here, Cybele! YESSS, dear Sarah we can bet I got! > > > > No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply > > 'understand ' - this > > comment is just a further elaboration to explain it > > but is not the awareness > > of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it > > intellectually a > > posteriori. > > How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already > > passed, is just a memory, > > is not present anymore. > > And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta > > and dukkha invites somehow > > the right mental conditions for this understanding > > to arise in my experience > > but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on > > many different factors. > > Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool > > and never improved > > genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not, > > how could we > > understanding anything at all? > >Yes, what's gone is gone and it is only the present >understanding that is of any importance. I think I'll >pass on the strategies for now;-) I do agree though, >some tasty brains can be a good condition for >mindfulness... yum! I like your brains but your heart is much more tasty for me! > > > > Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you > > call self or what we > > can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of > > thought, emotions, > > sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this > > understanding. > > Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far > > as I am aware or nama > > rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is > > mindfulness. > > The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be > > uprooted so easily - this is > > just thinking a wise conception of non self but you > > can experience it > > directly only when the right conditions arises. > >True, no easy up-rooting...and so easy to take >thinking for understanding. May I just add, PANNA or >rt understanding can experience it when the conditions >arise.. Ok I surrender to Panna and is reminds me something tasty as well; panna in Italian is whipped cream....lobha, lobha, hhmmm! Can we have 'lust' for right understanding? ;-) > > > Therefore understanding will be there and drop by > > drop will fill up the > > mental container of wisdom but it's a very long > > process eradicating > > ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of > > awakening can happen > > anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement > > in that very moment are > > overcome by awareness. > >Excellent!;-) I am glad my brains are still functioning even with 'disgraceful passions' entangling my mind! ;-) > > > > We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant > > wishful thinking right now > > Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial > > but we are seeking for it > > DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in > > craving for results. > > But we have to focuse our minds on it so far. > >Hmmmm.......;-( > > > I like you too Sarah. > > It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so > > to speak - I am not ok > > but that's ok. I can only endure. > >I hope we can help on the list, Cybele and my >warm-hearted friends in London can too... You and Rob and Bhante are helping me a lot and Num is very nice with me. I do not complain my 'list-kamma'. I don't care about quantity but quality! > > > > I am sure you are not starving around here... > >No, these days, I'm very full and bloated most the >time! In fact my eyes are definitely bigger than my >mouth! Don't get a brain congestion! > > > You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse > > oblige teasing 'gringos'. > > ;-) > >Keep it up, it does us all good! Glad that you can be humorous about it. > > > Best Wishes to you too > > pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong > > Kong otherwise I could > > have met you. > >Pls come again soon and I'd love to spend time with >you! I even have a friend who wants Italian lessons >here. Hope the right conditions arises and I can return there soon. And start a classe of Italian/Brazilian language to warm up all the expatriates! Better a classe of samba or lambada, promise if that doesn't warm them up I am going to feel an utter failure! > > And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators. > >Me too, though I thought Erik's 'bullshit filters' was >rather good, but a little impolite for a respectable >list, don't you think? Well we could read it as 'mind purification' in another key! > >Take good care of yourself, Cybele, and thank you for >the light relief after sabhavas and sannas! Pls do >ignore any of the brains that are too technical for >your taste-buds (including mine at times)! > >Sarah > Yes I do ignore them Sarah, don't worry and what resonates inside me I appreciate as well. Cybele 4257 From: Howard Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/23/01 12:03:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Dear howard, > the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following > to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. > It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own > characteristics, thus they are dhammas." > The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas > devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose > of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures > devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities > as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere > misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be > discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas > (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas > are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, > the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical > device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , > acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" > > It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the > change of dhammas. > robert > ====================================== Excellent, Robert! Thank you for this. I particularly perked up at "And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. ... " This lack of real distinction between dhammas and their lakkhanas is one of the points made by by Nagarjuna! Small world, huh? At least the world of Buddhist ideas is smaller than might seems at first glance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4258 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 2:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia I thought this might help, Howard. As Erik mentioned a common criticism of Abhidhamma is that it posits little self-existing entities but as we see this is not the case. Even though some people study abhidhamma and may slant towards this idea the actual Theravada position is more sublime. We talk about 'moments'; and this is useful to explain some aspects but if we have an idea of a moment in an 'atomic model' sense this is wrong. It is like when we study chemistry - the teacher explains about atoms and it sounds like they are solid tiny balls - but not so in fact. I think of all the Abhidhamma the last book- the Patthana is the most important - because it details the varieties of conditions that work in complex ways for even one 'moment' to arise. It is very hard to study yet when we relate it to daily life- i.e. to namas and rupas arising now - it can be seen that this is the way things are. Even the level of considering and seeing this at a basic level - well before vipassana-nana - has quite an effect on the clinging to self. And more than that if it is done with a clear view of purpose - to condition more understanding of the present moment- then it should lead to gradual direct insight. (Or so it seems to me) robert --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > > In a message dated 3/23/01 12:03:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > > > > Dear howard, > > the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the > following > > to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. > > It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their > own > > characteristics, thus they are dhammas." > > The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no > dhammas > > devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the > purpose > > of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific > natures > > devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such > entities > > as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere > > misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be > > discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas > > (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these > dhammas > > are discovered as actually real actualties. And although > there > > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > > characteristics, still, in order to facilitate > understanding, > > the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical > > device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , > > acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" > > > > It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence > etc. > > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to > the > > change of dhammas. > > robert > > > ====================================== > Excellent, Robert! Thank you for this. I particularly > perked up at > "And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these > dhammas and their > characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, > the exposition > makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. ... " This > lack of real > distinction between dhammas and their lakkhanas is one of the > points made by > by Nagarjuna! Small world, huh? At least the world of > Buddhist ideas is > smaller than might seems at first glance. > > With metta, > Howard > > 4259 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 5:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah) Mike, and Dan Dan: Sounds like it's been a very uncomfortable few days. Hope you're feeling much better now. [My comments below are not meant as a reflection on Dan's original post - simply on Mike's remarks] > I would have said, 'mindfulness > keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no > one 'noting''--does this agree with your > understanding? You are exactly right about past-cultivated conditions. Mindfulness cannot arise because we decide to focus on realities or a characteristec of realities. Only mindfulness established to a very high degree can keep arising. This is apparent from the references in the suttas to those who attain enlightenment - they are often described in the period prior to their attainment as being one for whom mindfulness is well established. Nowadays it is not uncommon to hear or read about this degree of mindfulness in terms that suggest it is within reach for those who have the determination. This ignores the role of past-cultivated conditions. > Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I > THINK). I find this makes illness much more > bearable, > too. Do you think this kind of reflection is > practice > of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or > paññati? (This is not a rhetorical question). If > it > is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both, > (seemingly) intermingled? This is a perceptive observation. Even though reflection on, say, the impermanence of things may bring 'insights', it is still only a kind of thinking, and not necessarily kusala. I say not necesarily kusala because this cannot be assumed simply from the subject matter of the thinking. Even the person him or her-self will only know the answer if he or she has developed panna of the level that knows kusala from akusala. jon 4260 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:02:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Dear Robert, I just like to add that in mahayana every dhamma is without sabhava including nibbana.They started since nagajurna theory --since every things is condition ,it must be without sabhava of their own...... From Teng Kee > Dear howard, > the majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following > to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. > It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own > characteristics, thus they are dhammas." > The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas > devoid of their own characteristics this is said fro the purpose > of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures > devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities > as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere > misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be > discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas > (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas > are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, > the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical > device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , > acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" > > It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the > change of dhammas. > robert > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > > > Thanks for this post. The main thing I gain from it is > > the Theravadin > > commentarial sense of 'sabbhava' as being closer to 'lakkhana' > > than to > > essence or own-being. This pleases me! The Mahayanist use of > > the Sanskrit > > 'svabhava' is to mean own-being/essence/self-nature, and is > > definitely > > substantialist in sense. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > 4261 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:42pm Subject: Sat. ED. report Dear K. Kom et al. The arammana of the citta is as we discussed, one of the seven that has not fallen away, through the five dvara, and past arammana that is still continuing to arise and fall away and appearing as the present moment, such as visible object and seeing at this instant. As Sukin remarked today, we are learning that in fact there is only the past. And at at least 17 times the speed of light, how could there be anything else, more importantly, how could anything, including the citta, be 'controled' once there are conditions for it to happen? The only way is to accumulate conditions for the right things to arise. About sanna, it is memory, it both memorizes and recalls what it has marked. Vitakka is not only thought, however, as it arises with all citta except the 10 dvi panca vinnana (5 senses, kusala and akusala citta) and the jhana citta higher than the first jhana citta. Depending on the strength of the vitakka cetasika, it could just 'touch' or deeply 'examine' the object of the citta, as in 'applied thinking'. Sanna marks what it does not know for further recognition afterwards. It arises with all citta as imperceptible as well as strong sanna. (K. Num, one interesting example is the 'subconscious' which is used in witness examination, such as some years ago in Israel when there was a bombing on a bus. The police used hypnotism on the witnesses who came up with the exact description of the perpetrators they could not remember from emotional stress. Shows how much we all live in a world of thoughts, don't you think?) TA. Sujin remarks that the cetasika arise together and perform different functions depending on the kind of citta and the strength of the cetasika at each instant. For example without the phassa nothing at all can be experienced. But as I understood it the cetana that arises with the ahetuka citta only helps the citta do its duty, unlike when it is strong enough to be kusala or akusala and function as kamma paccaya. Vitakka that arises with all other citta than the mano dvara would probably not count as 'thought' as K. Kom already pointed out. But as the reality that touches and examines the object it is indeed thought, and even 'applied thought' as in some translations. Sanna at its weakest would be imperceptible, in its strongest would be able to remember or recall the most 'difficult' objects. One important point she stressed is that to study the cetasikas, one must see what kinds of citta (jati and type of citta) they arise with also, to see the function they perform more clearly. One must also check the book study with the present citta as much as one is able. For example at present there is lobha arising to be attached to various objects, must there be miccha ditthi arising as well? Whereas while there is performance of akusala, can there be samma ditthi? One will read several definitions of the same cetasika, but one must understand what it arises to do what function, to be able to understand its true nature. Or something to that effect. Perhaps Sukin and Betty could add something I forgot or clarify something further? Thanks in advance, Amara 4262 From: <> Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:50pm Subject: Re: Human State Hi, The Buddha said that the human state is the best (os is it ONLY??) state for achieving enlightenment (do you have the Sutta reference handy?) No sex, no babies, no human state. In this sense, isn't having children an act of compassion to all living beings? 4263 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:54pm Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report Dear all, A little additional precision: The sati could never know the citta it arises with, I think a good analogy (adapted from Sukin's) would be the tip of your index finger, which could touch anything but itself. Also the following: > The arammana of the citta is as we discussed, one of the seven that > has not fallen away, through the five dvara, and past arammana that is > still continuing to arise and fall away and appearing as the present > moment, such as visible object and seeing at this instant. should read, +...through the mano dvara. As Sukin > remarked today, we are learning that in fact there is only the past. +...through the mano dvara. Have fun with all this, Amara 4264 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:00pm Subject: Re: Human State > The Buddha said that the human state is the best (os is it ONLY??) > state for achieving enlightenment (do you have the Sutta reference > handy?) > > No sex, no babies, no human state. In this sense, isn't having > children an act of compassion to all living beings? Still stuck in this level, are you? Have you reached enlightenment? Can you guarantee that the children you will produce, say even without sex, by cloning millions of yourself would be able to gain any level of Buddhist wisdom? Why don't you start by attaining enlightened so you could help yourself first before being so 'compassioate'?!? 4265 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:19am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to > arise somewhere in the > future. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for > the same kind of > citta to arise with the exact same arammana > within the same vithi or > process, I think. > This is from Nina's conditions: Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to nåma, namely to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas. Javana-cittas are kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With regard to cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven javana-cittas in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti, kusala, akusala or kiriya. The first javana-citta conditions the second javana-citta by repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, thus, the first javana-citta is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After that the second javana-citta which is in its turn the conditioning dhamma, conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh javana-citta which does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it is the last javana-citta. Note that Asevana paccaya dhamma must be javana. This restriction would restrict tatalamppana from being asevana even though the next citta may be tatalamppana (the same type, but not javana). kom 4266 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:29am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana Dear Erik, > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik > > A question that's bothered me some. How does the > Abhidhamma account > for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can > "cognize" nibbana? > > Erik > I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara) cognizes Nibanna (asankhara). However, I note that Citta also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all, which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall). kom 4267 From: Howard Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/24/01 1:23:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > I thought this might help, Howard. As Erik mentioned a common > criticism of Abhidhamma is that it posits little self-existing > entities but as we see this is not the case. Even though some > people study abhidhamma and may slant towards this idea the > actual Theravada position is more sublime. We talk about > 'moments'; and this is useful to explain some aspects but if we > have an idea of a moment in an 'atomic model' sense this is > wrong. It is like when we study chemistry - the teacher explains > about atoms and it sounds like they are solid tiny balls - but > not so in fact. > > I think of all the Abhidhamma the last book- the Patthana is the > most important - because it details the varieties of conditions > that work in complex ways for even one 'moment' to arise. It is > very hard to study yet when we relate it to daily life- i.e. to > namas and rupas arising now - it can be seen that this is the > way things are. Even the level of considering and seeing this at > a basic level - well before vipassana-nana - has quite an effect > on the clinging to self. And more than that if it is done with a > clear view of purpose - to condition more understanding of the > present moment- then it should lead to gradual direct insight. > (Or so it seems to me) > robert > ========================== Again I thank you! You do, indeed, know how to discuss Abhidhamma with a "ringer" (as Erik half-jokes) such as me! ;-)) BTW, Ven Nyanaponika also made much of the Patthana in emphasizing that the Abhidhamma Pitaka, itself, is not substantialist. Kalupahana also defends the Abhidhamma Pitaka, though not all the commentaries, against the charge of substantialism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4268 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:44am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Dear Erik, > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik > This is interesting. I never knew this. I had > assumed that sanna was > a neutral in terms of kusala/akusala. Sanna is counted among the "annasamana" cetasikas. Annasamana cetasikas have the same jati (kusala, akusala, kiriya, and vipaka) as the co-arising citta (and cetasikas). If the citta is kusala, then sanna (and other annasamana cetasikas) must be kusala. So the categories of cetasikas are: 1) Annasamana (13) (7 rising with all kinds of cittas) 2) Akusala (14) (rising with 12 kinds of cittas only) 3) Sobhana (25) (kusala vipaka, kiriya, and kusala) kom 4269 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:53am Subject: Re: : Sanna Dear K. Kom, Thanks for another correction, yes, asevaba has to be the in the same vithi and not including the tadalambana. So in fact K. Num is right, where is the difference? Amara > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amara > > > > Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to > > arise somewhere in the > > future. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for > > the same kind of > > citta to arise with the exact same arammana > > within the same vithi or > > process, I think. > > > This is from Nina's conditions: > > Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to > nåma, namely > to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas. > Javana-cittas are > kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With > regard to cittas of > the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven > javana-cittas > in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti, > kusala, > akusala or kiriya. The first javana-citta conditions the > second javana-citta > by repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, thus, the first > javana-citta > is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second > one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After > that > the second javana-citta which is in its turn the > conditioning dhamma, > conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh > javana-citta which > does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it > is the last > javana-citta. > > Note that Asevana paccaya dhamma must be javana. This > restriction would restrict tatalamppana from being asevana > even though the next citta may be tatalamppana (the same > type, but not javana). > > kom 4270 From: Howard Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sat. ED. report Hi, Amara - In a message dated 3/24/01 7:50:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Amara writes: > About sanna, it is memory, it both memorizes and recalls what it has > marked. > . . . > > Sanna marks what it does not know for further recognition afterwards. > It arises with all citta as imperceptible as well as strong sanna. > > =================================== I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na, but I had thought there was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a role in the formation of percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular features of current experience, driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking" them as a kind of mental package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual unit. I suspect that my understanding here is only partially correct, and I would appreciate clarification. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4271 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:03am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia Dear Sarah, Thanks for clearing this up. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah] > > Hi, Kom, > > ....infinitely small existence sounds > like a concept to me..yes? no? But p'haps when there > is understanding of the rise and fall of seeing we > could talk about knowledge of this, I'm not sure. What > do you think? My model basically says each dhamma has other characteristics (and functions) beyond what we experience. We may be experiencing one of the tri-lakkhanas (not me!), say dukkha, but on the other hand, we could have been experiencing the anatta characteristic of the "same" dhamma. In this sense, a dhamma existence is beyond the characteristic that we experience. The fact (or the misguided facts?) that each dhamma has infinitely small existence is totally conceptual to me. I do not experience the dhamma rising nor falling, but am inclined to think so. kom 4272 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:06am Subject: Re: : Sanna --- "Amara" wrote: > Dear K. Kom, > > Thanks for another correction, yes, asevaba has to be the in the same > vithi and not including the tadalambana. > > So in fact K. Num is right, where is the difference? > > Amara Dear K. Kom, Sorry for the confusion, is it in the correct order of the next citta to arise, isn't it? This would be where the tadalambana would follow the javana as well? A. > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Amara > > > > > > Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to > > > arise somewhere in the > > > future. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for > > > the same kind of > > > citta to arise with the exact same arammana > > > within the same vithi or > > > process, I think. > > > > > This is from Nina's conditions: > > > > Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to > > nåma, namely > > to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas. > > Javana-cittas are > > kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With > > regard to cittas of > > the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven > > javana-cittas > > in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti, > > kusala, > > akusala or kiriya. The first javana-citta conditions the > > second javana-citta > > by repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, thus, the first > > javana-citta > > is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second > > one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After > > that > > the second javana-citta which is in its turn the > > conditioning dhamma, > > conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh > > javana-citta which > > does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it > > is the last > > javana-citta. > > > > Note that Asevana paccaya dhamma must be javana. This > > restriction would restrict tatalamppana from being asevana > > even though the next citta may be tatalamppana (the same > > type, but not javana). > > > > kom 4273 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:18am Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report > > About sanna, it is memory, it both memorizes and recalls what it has > > marked. > > > . > . > . > > > > > > Sanna marks what it does not know for further recognition afterwards. > > It arises with all citta as imperceptible as well as strong sanna. > > > > > =================================== > I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na, but I had thought there > was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a role in the formation of > percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular features of current experience, > driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking" them as a kind of mental > package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual unit. I suspect that my > understanding here is only partially correct, and I would appreciate > clarification. > > With metta, > Howard Dear Howard, From what I understand, sanna never arises alone, and normally vitakka plays an important role in recalling by giving some objects of sanna particular importance by thinking of it often, therefore the memory is more easily recalled than those that happen 'automatically' millions of times each hour, where ekaggata, vitakka and vicara does not focus, 'touch/apply thinking' and 'sustain thinking' on it too strongly, for example. Does this help? Amara 4274 From: mike nease Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:30am Subject: Silaa, Daana & Bhavana Dear Friends, Happy Uposatha. I recall that somewhere in AIDL (I think) Nina writes that right speech only occurs with regard to silaa, daana or bhavana. I don't recall running across this in the Suttanta or the Vinaya. Can anyone cite the source of this? Thanks in advance. mike 4275 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:38am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:54 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna > > asevaba has > to be the in the same > vithi and not including the tadalambana. > Asevana has to be in the same Javana vithi. Anantara (and anantarupa-nissaya) doesn't have to be. For example, the last Javana citta within a vithi is NOT asevana pacaya to the tatalamppanna (or bhavanga), but IS ananatara pacaya to the tatalamppanna. In fact, anantara pacaya dhamma and its paccayubanna dhamma doesn't have to be in the same vithi or in the same life. The last talampanna (a vithi citta) is anantara pacaya to the bhavanga (not a vithi citta). I think the other question K. Num has is, if Anantara paccaya and anantarupanissaya pacaya are pretty much the same, why call them differently? I am afraid I will have to pass this one! (On the other hand, we call a kind of paramatha dhamma so many ways, maybe to increase the chance of learning one way while we can't learn in the other?) kom 4276 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:44am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > Sorry for the confusion, is it in the correct > order of the next citta > to arise, isn't it? This would be where the > tadalambana would follow > the javana as well? This would be the other pacaya: samantara paccaya. We note again here that the paccaya dhammas and pacayubanna dhammas for samantara paccaya and anatara paccaya are the same. In A. Santi's explanation, samantara paccaya and anatara are the same kind of pacaya. I am personally not convinced, but I am just passing on what I heard... kom 4277 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:54am Subject: Re: : Sanna Dear K. Kom, Just for the papanca of it, could we say that: Anatara: immediate cause and continuation; Samanantara: immediate cause and continuation in the right order, no skipping around; Samanantarupa: the above, with the same (arammana) vithi + tadalambana Asevana: the above, within the same javana vithi period. How's that, just for fun? Next week I'll try to remember to follow this up. Amara > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amara > > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:54 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna > > > > > asevaba has > > to be the in the same > > vithi and not including the tadalambana. > > > > Asevana has to be in the same Javana vithi. Anantara (and > anantarupa-nissaya) doesn't have to be. For example, the > last Javana citta within a vithi is NOT asevana pacaya to > the tatalamppanna (or bhavanga), but IS ananatara pacaya to > the tatalamppanna. In fact, anantara pacaya dhamma and its > paccayubanna dhamma doesn't have to be in the same vithi or > in the same life. The last talampanna (a vithi citta) is > anantara pacaya to > the bhavanga (not a vithi citta). > > I think the other question K. Num has is, if Anantara > paccaya and anantarupanissaya pacaya are pretty much the > same, why call them differently? I am afraid I will have to > pass this one! (On the other hand, we call a kind of > paramatha dhamma so many ways, maybe to increase the chance > of learning one way while we can't learn in the other?) > > kom 4278 From: Howard Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 8:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sat. ED. report Hi, Amara - In a message dated 3/24/01 12:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Amara writes: > Dear Howard, > > From what I understand, sanna never arises alone, and normally vitakka > plays an important role in recalling by giving some objects of sanna > particular importance by thinking of it often, therefore the memory is > more easily recalled than those that happen 'automatically' millions > of times each hour, where ekaggata, vitakka and vicara does not focus, > 'touch/apply thinking' and 'sustain thinking' on it too strongly, for > example. > > Does this help? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: A bit. ;-) Thanks. ------------------------------------------- > Amara > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4279 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:04am Subject: Re: : Sanna > > Sorry for the confusion, is it in the correct > > order of the next citta > > to arise, isn't it? This would be where the > > tadalambana would follow > > the javana as well? > > This would be the other pacaya: samantara paccaya. We note > again here that the paccaya dhammas and pacayubanna dhammas > for samantara paccaya and anatara paccaya are the same. In > A. Santi's explanation, samantara paccaya and anatara are > the same kind of pacaya. I am personally not convinced, but > I am just passing on what I heard... Dear K. Kom, Checking it against the 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya', and if I remmber K. Sujin's explanations, they apply to the same realities, but from different angles, the first being immediate cause and the second the order, but in the analysis above the anantarupa would be with the same arammana as well, whereas the asevana is uniquely in the same javana, don't you think that's possible? Sorry I'm very bad with names and numbers! But I think there must be a valid reason for this precise classification. A. Amara 4280 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:06am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > Just for the papanca of it, could we say that: Yes, pannatti indeed. I think papanca is supposed to hinder, I am not sure if the understanding of pacaya dhamma hinders (yet!). Maybe trying too much to understand is! > Anatara: immediate cause and continuation; > > Samanantara: immediate cause and continuation in > the right order, no > skipping around; > > Samanantarupa: the above, with the same > (arammana) vithi + tadalambana This one (Samananatarupa) I haven't heard about yet. No opinion here. > > Asevana: the above, within the same javana vithi period. > kom 4281 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:29am Subject: Re: : Sanna > > Samanantarupa: the above, with the same > > (arammana) vithi + tadalambana > > This one (Samananatarupa) I haven't heard about yet. No > opinion here. Dear K. Kom, I don't think I can get too too serious about this, especially since it is said to be one of the 'imponderables', a good excuse! So for me probably just papanca, proliferation in all directions. Pannatti too, obviously, because we are using language to communicate. Sorry about the spelling of anantarupanissaya-paccaya, I added the S inadvertantly. You know anantarupanissaya-paccaya of course: (quote from '24 paccaya'): The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi. The last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or bhavanga to arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya. (end quote) Signing off for now, til tomorrow, my friends, Amara 4282 From: Alex T Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 3:36am Subject: Back To Observing Consciousness Dear friends, After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to understand how the observing consciousness works. Thank you. Anumodana, Alex Tran 4283 From: Herman Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:12am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik --- lots of people wrote lots of things: Hi this is Herman. I have trouble forwarding my emails from work to home, so I have acessed the list via other means, and this will come from a different place then normal, and I have no idea what name it will appear under. Anyway, it's from Herman. Sorry to those people that I have not replied to. I try and get to the list as often as I can. If I do not reply or am not involved for a while it is because I am otherwise occupied. Cybele, your post to and re Erik prompted the following thoughts: A man sat on the beach. He drew a line in the sand. He shouted "Eureka" and spoke loudly and at length to himself about his inspiration. The world was obviously divided into left and right world. All things on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to the right was on his left hand were inherently different to all things that were on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to the left was on his right hand. And so on. A hot-blooded, passionate, and cheeky person :-), seated nearby, noted there was no line. The rising sea had erased the line long ago. There are no real lines, no real divisions. The semblance arises by investment, identification. All line-drawing, all discursive thought is craving for self. Each moment reflecting the non-real is a moment lost. There is bliss and tranquility. Enjoy ! :-) Herman 4284 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Herman I am for non boundaries and no divisions and I agree that our compulsive need to create this fake orderliness is an attempt to control what by intrinsec nature cannot be controlled. And I am glad that you caught the point I was trying to enhance, that all this analyzing life is wasting life; life is not to be rationalized but to be experienced as much mindfully as we can manage to in that precise moment. All this energy canalized in thinking life and while we are lost in our thoughts, life is passing away and we are not aware of it. Present moment, wonderful moment. Well there is bliss and tranquility...yes it happens sometimes but there is pain and grief and restlessness and also this is part of life and is not to be denied or rejected. Yesterday very late returning my cheap room in London suburbia, tranquil and relaxed, enjoying an energetic walk and a nice, invigorating song in my walkman and feeling not blissful but somewhat good considering that I have been quite troubled lately I was assaulted by a man on the desert streets and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a knife and attempting sexual abuse with violence. I had to plead him to let me go with tearful eyes and desperation in my voice and I don't know why, Avalokteswara, my kamma or his compassion, he was moved and contented himself just to scare me dead but set me free overwhelmed yet without harm. Well now I am recollecting and analyzing this past moment and I need my discursive thought to understand and accept what happened. And this is what I call 'dynamic meditation' and doing a deliberate effort to develop right understanding. Therefore what I am trying to communicate you and everybody is that for me everything that compounds our mind set thoughts, emotions, sensations, mental contents are to be observed and respected and one is not to be despised or preferred for another; that is our misconstruction of reality - as for me is natural being hotblooded I am prone to reject the sterile logic of intellectual reasoning that gets on my nerves but even that is necessary yet associated with everything that arises and this INCLUDES emotions. But one doesn't PRECLUDES the other, it should be a sinergy of many factors creating the right conditions to stabilish awareness. Actually being emotional I have a very logical mind but I do not rationalize freezing reality to take charge and feel secure. As you can see even a simple walk in a street can be upsetting. And that is reality not always blissful Herman not always sorrowful. I have to cope and this is part of the game taht I am invited to play. I did not set the rules but I have no choice but accept them and try to understand. That is what I was trying to communicate to Erik, life is here and now and you have to face it without denial or shielding yourself in eloquent intellectual reasonings. They are not going to PROTECT YOU anyway; and we all are exposed and vulnerable. Dhamma should be in my viewpoint our real strenght and not merely for mental delight. Sensual or intellectual, pleasure is pleasure, delusion is delusion. Glad to share with you. Love and respect Cybele >Cybele, your post to and re Erik prompted the following thoughts: > >A man sat on the beach. He drew a line in the sand. He >shouted "Eureka" and spoke loudly and at length to himself about his >inspiration. The world was obviously divided into left and right >world. All things on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to >the right was on his left hand were inherently different to all >things that were on the side of the line where the thumb pointing to >the left was on his right hand. And so on. > >A hot-blooded, passionate, and cheeky person :-), seated nearby, >noted there was no line. The rising sea had erased the line long ago. > >There are no real lines, no real divisions. The semblance arises by >investment, identification. All line-drawing, all discursive thought >is craving for self. Each moment reflecting the non-real is a moment >lost. > >There is bliss and tranquility. > >Enjoy ! :-) > > >Herman 4285 From: jinavamsa Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 9:07am Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness hello Alex, We look to see what is most prominent or obvious in the moment. We notice that. Then we look to see what is most obvious in the (next) moment; we notice that. And so on. jinavamsa --- Alex wrote: > Dear friends, > > After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to > understand how the observing consciousness works. > > Thank you. > > Anumodana, > Alex Tran 4286 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 10:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhavana I think we have to examine the cittas involved in speech and other activities to see this directly. Also the 10 types of kusala kammapatha: "giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation of someone elses kusala, which are ways of dana, generosity, abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who deserve it and helping, which are ways of siila, the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and explaining it, and the development of right understanding, which are ways of bhaavanaa, mental development. There is another meritorious action which can go together with all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones views. Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is one way of correction of ones views, but there are many degrees of it," (from deeds of merit by sujin boriharnwanaket). All kusala can be divided into sila, dana or bhavana. robert --- mike nease wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Happy Uposatha. I recall that somewhere in AIDL (I think) > Nina > writes that right speech only occurs with regard to silaa, > daana or > bhavana. I don't recall running across this in the Suttanta > or the > Vinaya. Can anyone cite the source of this? > > Thanks in advance. > > mike > 4287 From: Num Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Hi Cybele, Good to hear that you are safe and come back in one piece. I don't know it's kamma or not but be cautious OK. I am a little mad (at the guy) hearing this. I agree, it's better to be optimistic and trust other but you have to be realistic as well, girl. Be careful and take good care of your self. Warm regard from St.Louis, Num 4288 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 0:03pm Subject: threatened and robbed Dear Cybele, I was worried to hear of your terrible expereince yesterday. I guess you must be feeling bad now since it happend just hours ago. I was robbed in the Phillipines once. Not so bad as yours as they only menaced me and took my money; no knives and they weren't after my virtue. But still I was stunned. For me the thinking went: "I hope they rot in hell for this deed etc. etc." Thus the thinking was initially rooted in strong anger. Then later I felt very vulnerable: thinking rooted in fear (another type of dosa). Later on I just thought I was lucky they didn't cut my throat while they were at it. These are the patterns of thinking that arose - in my case- because of past accumulations and deep tendencies. While this was going on there was also a level of investigation that studied the thinking and the underlying roots. One sees that only while we are thinking about the incident is there fear or anger. If we don't think about it what then? However, thinking is conditioned and will arise - anatta. The thinking strongly conditions the roots that arise at the same time and so too the roots (dosa, ignorance, craving and non-dosa wisdom , detachment)condition the thinking. We cannot just think as we wish to: if we could there would be no truth of anatta. It is completely natural to be upset about such a savage incident. The reason being that we cling deeply to self. When we study about kamma/vipaka this can help us let go a little of this clinging as that understanding supports insight of nama and rupa. Even a sakadagami can have fear at such times - but an anagami can't because they have less ignorance. I wrote a while back about how khun sujin said to someone about a murderer: that there is no killer, no gun, no bullet and no self. This is so hard to see and can only be known by breaking down - each by themself- the concepts and clinging we have about self and situation into moments of nama and rupa, into moments of vipaka (result), moments of kamma(intention) etc. etc. I certainly don't say I can do this but I have an idea of how it can be done and the advantages of doing so are clear. Thanks for telling us about this awful incident Cybele and know that we are all wishing you well. robert --- cybele chiodi wrote: . > Yesterday very late returning my cheap room in London > suburbia, tranquil and > relaxed, enjoying an energetic walk and a nice, invigorating > song in my > walkman and feeling not blissful but somewhat good considering > that I have > been quite troubled lately I was assaulted by a man on the > desert streets > and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a knife and > attempting > sexual abuse with violence. > I had to plead him to let me go with tearful eyes and > desperation in my > voice and I don't know why, Avalokteswara, my kamma or his > compassion, he > was moved and contented himself just to scare me dead but set > me free > overwhelmed yet without harm. > Well now I am recollecting and analyzing this past moment and > I need my > discursive thought to understand and accept what happened. > And this is what I call 'dynamic meditation' and doing a > deliberate effort > to develop right understanding. > Therefore what I am trying to communicate you and everybody is > that for me > everything that compounds our mind set thoughts, emotions, > sensations, > mental contents are to be observed and respected and one is > not to be > despised or preferred for another; that is our misconstruction > of reality - 4289 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:10pm Subject: passing away of a friend Dear group, I just heard on another discussion forum (d-l) that a longtime member - Bill wolf- died while resting on his porch. He had many health problems but kept up his interest in Dhamma and wrote many fine letters that helped the community of friends (over 450 on d-l) on the forum. He was a good friend of venerable Dhammapiyo and others on this list as well. He will be sadly missed but his contributions and humour are an inspiration. robert 4290 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:29pm Subject: Re: : Sanna Dear All, I didn't mean to make light of the study of the basics of paccaya, it is always good to know that for a single moment of seeing there has to be over 50 paccapa at play in combination, therefore any thought of control or modification would be quite useless since when the conditions are there there's no stopping anything from arising. But to try to find out the exact paccaya of each moment that happens is acintaya, 'imponderable', also. Second try at explaining the differences: From the perspective of the citta having fallen away being cause for the next one to arise, this is called anantara paccaya. That there must be a certain order as to what citta follows which is called samanantara. From the perspective of the citta having experienced something and causes other citta to do the same kinds of things is upnissaya paccaya, and to arise to do so in a certain order is anantarupanissaya pacaya. Asevana remains within the same javana vithi. Any corrections? Sorry I must have been a bit tired last night! Amara > Dear K. Kom, > > Just for the papanca of it, could we say that: > > Anatara: immediate cause and continuation; > > Samanantara: immediate cause and continuation in the right order, no > skipping around; > > Samanantarupa: the above, with the same (arammana) vithi + tadalambana > > Asevana: the above, within the same javana vithi period. > > How's that, just for fun? Next week I'll try to remember to follow > this up. > > Amara > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Amara > > > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 8:54 AM > > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna > > > > > > > > asevaba has > > > to be the in the same > > > vithi and not including the tadalambana. > > > > > > > Asevana has to be in the same Javana vithi. Anantara (and > > anantarupa-nissaya) doesn't have to be. For example, the > > last Javana citta within a vithi is NOT asevana pacaya to > > the tatalamppanna (or bhavanga), but IS ananatara pacaya to > > the tatalamppanna. In fact, anantara pacaya dhamma and its > > paccayubanna dhamma doesn't have to be in the same vithi or > > in the same life. The last talampanna (a vithi citta) is > > anantara pacaya to > > the bhavanga (not a vithi citta). > > > > I think the other question K. Num has is, if Anantara > > paccaya and anantarupanissaya pacaya are pretty much the > > same, why call them differently? I am afraid I will have to > > pass this one! (On the other hand, we call a kind of > > paramatha dhamma so many ways, maybe to increase the chance > > of learning one way while we can't learn in the other?) > > > > kom 4291 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report Dear Howard, I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of , and on other cetasika as well, Enjoy, =^_^= Amara > > Dear Howard, > > > > From what I understand, sanna never arises alone, and normally vitakka > > plays an important role in recalling by giving some objects of sanna > > particular importance by thinking of it often, therefore the memory is > > more easily recalled than those that happen 'automatically' millions > > of times each hour, where ekaggata, vitakka and vicara does not focus, > > 'touch/apply thinking' and 'sustain thinking' on it too strongly, for > > example. > > > > Does this help? > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > A bit. ;-) Thanks. > ------------------------------------------- > > > Amara > > > ======================== > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4292 From: teng kee ong Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:40pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana -----Original Message----- From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:29:46 -0800 Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana > Dear Erik, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Erik > > > > A question that's bothered me some. How does the > > Abhidhamma account > > for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can > > "cognize" nibbana? > > > > Erik > > > > I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara) > cognizes Nibanna (asankhara). However, I note that Citta > also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all, > which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no > conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall). > > kom > Dear Kom, I think you are wrong to say pannatti dosen't rise and fall and have no conditions.This is the view by Modern Myanmar monk who think that there are two uncondition (another is niibana)but this is not the view of our theravada text book.If the pannatti is uncondition ,there will not be a kind of pannatti name asankhata pannatti.Pannatti is only half uncondition ,we can use this word.See Vibhanga com or just look at last few pages of Visuddhimagga by nyanamoli in nirodha samapatti part. Our lokiya citta couldn't percieve the nibbana until we are a arahant. from Teng Kee 4293 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:00pm Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness > After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to > understand how the observing consciousness works. Dear Alex, As we know, all citta must have an object, otherwise it cannot arise. It and its accompanying cetasika must have the same object, and as humans, we can only experience anything at all through the six dvara. The five sense dvara have very specific arammana unique to the dvara, they cannot be exchanged: the eye cannot hear sound, etc. The body sense has more than one rupa as arammana, unlike the other four sense dvara; the body sense has three rupa as possible arammana, therefore the five senses have altogether 7 rupa as possible arammana. The senses experience the rupa through the process of citta or vithi citta, the details of which you can read in the 'Summary', Citta chapter 4. from which this excerpt is taken: There are 7 vithi-citta through the panca-dvara. 1. Avajjana-vithi, which is the panca-dvaravajjana-vithi-citta. 2. One of the dvi-pancavinnana-citta, namely the cakkhu-, sota-, ghana-, jivha-, or kaya-vinnana. 3. Sampaticchanna-citta, which arises to receive the arammana in continuation from one of the dvi-pancavinnana-citta that had fallen away 4. Santirana-citta, which examines the arammana 5. Votthabbana-citta, which makes way for kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta (only for the arahanta) to ensue 6. Javana-vithi-citta, literally "javana " means dart or run swiftly through arammana, with kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta (uniquely the arahanta) 7. Tadalambana-vithi or tadarammana-vithi. Tadalambana-vithi-citta arises to perform the function of receiving and knowing the arammana from the javana-vithi-citta when the arammana has not yet fallen away since the rupa lasts 17 instants of citta as follows: 1. The instant when rupa arises to impinge on the dvara and comes into contact with the atita-bhavanga. 2. The instant of bhavanga-jalana-citta 3. The instant of bhavangupaccheda-citta 4. The instant of panca-dvaravajjana-citta 5. The instant of dvi-pancavinnana-citta 6. The instant of sampaticchanna-citta 7. The instant of santirana-citta 8. The instant of votthabbana-citta 9. The instant of the first javana-citta 10. The instant of the second javana-citta 11. The instant of the third javana-citta 12. The instant of the fourth javana-citta -- 7 javana-citta 13. The instant of the fifth javana-citta 14. The instant of the sixth javana-citta 15. The instant of the seventh javana-citta Altogether the duration of the rupa, from the atita-bhavanga-citta to the last of the javana-citta, has lasted fifteen instants of citta. The rupa has not yet fallen away. It endures two instants of citta more. Normally for the kamma-puggala, when the javana-citta has run through the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodysense contact but the rupa hasn't fallen away, the accumulations of past kamma, full of attachment to the sight, sound, smell, taste or bodysense contact, would be paccaya for the vipaka-citta to arise as two more tadalambana-vithi-citta to receive and know the arammana afterwards. Tadalambana-vithi-citta which performs the function of knowing the arammana in succession from the javana-vithi is the last citta to arise and perceive arammana through a dvara. After the last vithi-citta of a dvara the bhavanga-citta arise and fall away until the next vithi-citta arises to know arammana through one of the dvara. When there is bhavanga-citta the world does not appear; all memory of happenings, people and occurrences of this world do not appear. When one is deep asleep, there is bhavanga-citta all through. There is no knowledge or memory of this world at all. When the cuti-citta arises to perform the function of leaving this being, the patisandhi-citta succeeds, then the next vithi-citta that arises would concern another world. But while cuti-citta has not yet arisen, even though the bhavanga-citta does not know any arammana of this world, whenever vithi-citta arise, nothing can stop them from knowing arammana of this world, such as sight, sound, smell, taste or bodysense contact and other matters of this world continually. The order of arising of the vithi-citta through the panca-dvara is as follows : 1. Atita-bhavanga 2. Bhavanga-jalana --non-vithi-citta 3. Bhavangupaccheda 4. Panca-dvaravajjana-citta 5. Dvi-pancavinnana-citta 6. Sampaticchanna-citta -- vithi-citta 7. Santirana-citta 8. Votthabbana-citta 9. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 10. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 11. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 12. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta -- the 7 javana-vithi -citta 13. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 14. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 15. Kusala or akusala or kiriya-citta 16. Tadalambana-citta 17. Tadalambana-citta -- the 2 Tadalambana- vithi-citta The duration of the sabhava-rupa [non-conscious reality] equals the arising and falling away of 17 citta. When the vithi-citta arises to know the arammana through one of the panca-dvara, which are the pasada-rupa, and has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta alternately arises in continuation. Then the mano-dvara-vithi-citta, or the citta that is based on the mind (bhavangupaccheda-citta) as the dvara through which the arammana is known, would know the same arammana as the vithi-citta of the panca-dvara that has just fallen away. In each process the vithi-citta that arises to know the the arammana through one of the mano-dvara are fewer than the vithi-citta that arises to know the arammana through the panca-dvara. The mano-dvara process is without the atita-bhavanga because the arammana does not impinge on the cakkhuppasada, for example. However, before the mano-dvaravajjana-citta can reflect upon the arammana that the vithi-citta knows through the panca-dvara and then fall away, the bhavanga-jalana must rise and vibrate with the arammana and then fall away. Then the bhavangupaccheda arises and falls away. After that the mano-dvaravajjana-citta arises as the first mano-dvara-vithi-citta. The citta that performs the avajjana-kicca through the mano-dvara is not the panca-dvaravajjana-citta. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta can only do avajjana-kicca through the panca-dvara. It cannot perform avajjana-kicca through the mind-door. The citta that performs this duty is one time the mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs the function to reflect on the arammana of the mano-dvara or to think of the arammana through the mano-dvara. Each day when we think thoughts, while thinking the citta does not know any arammana through the eye, ear, nose, tongue or the bodysense. The bhavanga-jalana has arisen and fallen away, the bhavangupaccheda arises in sequence and falls away, then the mano-dvaravajjana-citta would arise as the first mano-dvara-vithi-citta. When the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has fallen away, for those who are not the arahanta, kusala or akusala citta, which are javana-vithi-citta, would arise and fall away in a series of the same kind of citta for seven instants. After the kusala- or akusala- javana-vithi-citta has fallen away, if it is a mental arammana that appears clearly, two tadalambana-vithi-citta would arise in continuation. Thus, there are only three vithi-citta that arise to know arammana through the mano-dvara as follows : 1. One instant of mano-dvaravajjana-vithi 2. Seven javana-vithi 3. Two tadalambana-vithi (End quote) What Kom stressed was that the arammana of the citta of the five sense dvara would still be extant when the citta arises through that dvara to have them as objects, whereas for the mano dvara that comes to receive the same arammana in sequence would not have that rupa there anymore since the rupa has fallen away before the mano dvara arises to know it in its turn, always, even though it is regarded as the 'present arammana'. KS explains that it is because both the citta and its arammana arise and fall so fast that it appears continuous now, like someone twirling a lit baton or a ventilator moving, you see it as a continuous line of flame or a flat surface where the individual propeller blades are. Or the spokes of a cycle wheel. Such is the speed of the arising and falling away of the screen before your eyes now that it completely hides the mano dvara that arises in between the seeing, hearing, etc. And such is the speed that the citta cannot really know itself, but can only study the characters of the citta from past citta and cetasika that has just fallen away, just like the tip of the index finger that can touch all other things but not itself. I adapted this analogy from Sukin's, he also remarked that in fact through the mano dvara there is only the past. This is of course at the level of the individual citta, 17 times the speed of any rupa, at least 17 times the speed of light. At the present moment KS said we could never distinguish between what is experienced through the 5 sense dvara from the mano dvara experiencing the immediate memory thereof, it is exactly alike. Sati, which occurs only in the javana, can arise both through the 5 sense vithi and the mano dvara vithi and can study both the paramatthadhamma (the seven rupa) as well as the citta and cetasika through the mano dvara. According to conditions it might be able to experience the 'subtle rupa' through the mano dvara as well, and at the level of the supreme magga citta, to experience nibbana, when the great conditions have been fulfilled. This shows how little we live in the present, doesn't it, and the most important thing is to be able to study the true characteristics of realities as much as we can, indeed the only moment we can really experience arammana that has not fallen away is when one is aware of the five dvara and their arammana as it happens now. The rest are really only thoughts, memory. Anumodana with all those who study, Amara 4294 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:11pm Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Cybele, I'm so glad you escaped relatively unscathed!!! I really felt a lot of dosa from what you related, and mudita that your kusala kept you from worse, do take care and have a safe and pleasant remaining stay in London and trip home! Do keep us posted, Amara 4295 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Re: passing away of a friend Venerable sir, Hearfelt condolences, sir, my mother always said ten persons entering a house is not as deeply felt as one person leaving it. Especially a close dhamma friend, Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I just heard on another discussion forum (d-l) that a longtime > member - Bill wolf- died while resting on his porch. He had many > health problems but kept up his interest in Dhamma and wrote > many fine letters that helped the community of friends (over 450 > on d-l) on the forum. > He was a good friend of venerable Dhammapiyo and others on this > list as well. > He will be sadly missed but his contributions and humour are an > inspiration. > robert > 4296 From: Howard Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sat. ED. report Hi, Amara - Thank you for the reference. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/25/01 6:35:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, Amara writes: > Dear Howard, > > I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the > chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the > advanced section of , and on other > cetasika as well, > > Enjoy, > =^_^= > Amara > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4297 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:22am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Dear K. Amara, Here's an excerpt from NVG's Conditions about Anantarupanissaya pacaya: > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > From the perspective of the citta having > > experienced something and > causes other citta to do the same kinds of things > is upnissaya > paccaya, and to arise to do so in a certain order > is anantarupanissaya > pacaya. The second condition classified under decisive support-condition is proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. This condition is similar to proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, see Ch 4). Both conditions pertain to each preceding citta which conditions the succeeding citta without any interval. However, a distinction between these two conditions has to be made. The teaching of proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya paccaya, stresses the aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force in the relationship between the conditioning reality, the preceding citta, and the conditioned reality, the succeeding citta. We read in the “Visuddhimagga”( XVII, 82) about the difference between the two conditional relations: ... Nevertheless proximity may be understood as the ability to cause the occurrence of an appropriate consciousness arising proximate (next) to itself, and decisive support as the preceding consciousness’ s cogency in the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses.... 4298 From: Howard Date: Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sat. ED. report Hi again, Amara - I've looked over the material, and, indeed, it *is* helpful. The co-occurrence of and interactions among the various cetasikas is quite interesting. I do particularly note the co-arising of vitakkha and manasikara (sp?) with sa~n~na, and it makes the matter clearer to me. It seems to me that if someone were to give a detailed presentation of the Abhidhamma content, and particularly, of the characteristics and interactions of the mental concomitants, in a manner that avoided tables and dry listings, it could be a subject that is absolutely fascinating, especially to "scientific types". Nyanaponika Thera took some steps in this direction, but, in my opinion, he didn't go far enough. Wih metta, Howard In a message dated 3/25/01 11:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > Hi, Amara - > > Thank you for the reference. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 3/25/01 6:35:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Amara writes:> > > > >> Dear Howard, >> >> I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the >> chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the >> advanced section of , and on other >> cetasika as well, >> >> Enjoy, >> =^_^= >> Amara >> > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4299 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:49am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana Dear Teng Kee, > -----Original Message----- > From: teng kee ong > I think you are wrong to say pannatti dosen't > rise and fall and have no conditions.This is the > view by Modern Myanmar monk who think that there > are two uncondition (another is niibana)but this > is not the view of our theravada text book.If the > pannatti is uncondition ,there will not be a kind > of pannatti name asankhata pannatti.Pannatti is > only half uncondition ,we can use this word.See > Vibhanga com or just look at last few pages of > Visuddhimagga by nyanamoli in nirodha samapatti part. Since I don't have Nyanamoli's Visuddhimagga, I can neither confirm or refute what you mentioned. I am wrong often, and this maybe no exception. > Our lokiya citta couldn't percieve the nibbana > until we are a arahant. Which Arahant's lokiya citta perceive nibbana? kom 4300 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:59am Subject: Re: : Sanna Dear K. Kom, Perhaps we should compare it with the passage from KS's 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the advanced section of also, the one I quoted before : 5. Upanissaya-paccaya Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for other realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is paccaya by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise concurrently with it. There are three upanissaya-paccaya: 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that is arising in the present. When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and attachment in the wrong view as strong arammana the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a strong base by being the arammana. For example, in the instant there is pleasure and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person regards as right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in the wrong view. The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi. The last lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or bhavanga to arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya. > Dear K. Amara, > > Here's an excerpt from NVG's Conditions about > Anantarupanissaya pacaya: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amara > > From the perspective of the citta having > > > > experienced something and > > causes other citta to do the same kinds of things > > is upnissaya > > paccaya, and to arise to do so in a certain order > > is anantarupanissaya > > pacaya. > > The second condition classified under decisive > support-condition is proximate decisive support-condition, > anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. This > condition is similar to proximity-condition > (anantara-paccaya, see Ch > 4). Both conditions pertain to each preceding citta which > conditions the > succeeding citta without any interval. However, a > distinction between > these two conditions has to be made. The teaching of > proximate > decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya paccaya, > stresses the > aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force in > the > relationship between the conditioning reality, the preceding > citta, and > the conditioned reality, the succeeding citta. We read in > the > "Visuddhimagga"( XVII, 82) about the difference between the > two > conditional relations: > > ... Nevertheless proximity may be understood as the ability > to cause the > occurrence of an appropriate consciousness arising proximate > (next) to > itself, and decisive support as the preceding consciousness' > s cogency in > the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses.... 4301 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:03am Subject: Re: Sat. ED. report Dear Howard, If you have time do look at the entire (massive!) book, it was the best introduction to the abhidhamma I have ever read, personally. Just start at the beginning and go through it when you have the time. I could never recommend it enough!!! Amara > Hi again, Amara - > > I've looked over the material, and, indeed, it *is* helpful. The > co-occurrence of and interactions among the various cetasikas is quite > interesting. I do particularly note the co-arising of vitakkha and manasikara > (sp?) with sa~n~na, and it makes the matter clearer to me. It seems to me > that if someone were to give a detailed presentation of the Abhidhamma > content, and particularly, of the characteristics and interactions of the > mental concomitants, in a manner that avoided tables and dry listings, it > could be a subject that is absolutely fascinating, especially to "scientific > types". Nyanaponika Thera took some steps in this direction, but, in my > opinion, he didn't go far enough. > > Wih metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 3/25/01 11:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > > > > Hi, Amara - > > > > Thank you for the reference. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > In a message dated 3/25/01 6:35:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > Amara writes: > > > > > > > > >> Dear Howard, > >> > >> I would like to suggest you read about sanna and vitakka in the > >> chapter on cetasika in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the > >> advanced section of , and on other > >> cetasika as well, > >> > >> Enjoy, > >> =^_^= > >> Amara > >> 4302 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:09am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana Dear Teng Kee, --- teng kee ong wrote: > Dear Kom, > Pannatti is only half > uncondition ,we can use this word.See Vibhanga com > or just look at last few pages of Visuddhimagga by > nyanamoli in nirodha samapatti part. Are you referring here to Visuddhimagga XXIII, ([C.) 25? Thank you, sir, mike 4303 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma) Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > I think we have to examine the cittas involved in > speech and > other activities to see this directly. > Also the 10 types of kusala kammapatha: > > "giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation > of someone > elses kusala, which are ways of dana, generosity, > > abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who > deserve it > and helping, which are ways of siila, > > the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and > explaining > it, and the development of right understanding, > which are ways > of bhaavanaa, mental development. > > There is another meritorious action which can go > together with > all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones > views. > Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is > one way of > correction of ones views, but there are many degrees > of it," > (from deeds of merit by sujin boriharnwanaket). > > > All kusala can be divided into sila, dana or > bhavana. Thanks for (1) reminding me of the 10 kusala kammapatha (by the way, does anyone know if this list occurs explicitly in the Suttanta or the Vinaya?); (2) reminding me of this excellent resource (http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html); (3) reminding me of a great new (to me) Paali term found there: "It is the kind of kusala which is correction of ones views, in Paali: diññhujukamma."; and (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are two different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @ http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm) mike 4304 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma) Correction: The URL for Paliwords should have been: http://members.home.net/j-andrew-shaw/pali.htm 4305 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:05am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > Dear K. Kom, > > Perhaps we should compare it with the passage from KS's > 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the advanced > section of also, the one I > quoted before : > You are right. I have looked back at the earlier post you have made: I couldn't find disagreements anywhere between your post, my posts (with Nina's quote), and your post (with A. Sujin's quote). Anumoddhana. kom 4306 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > I was assaulted by a man on the desert streets > and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a > knife and attempting sexual abuse with violence. In recent years both I and a close family member have been victims of criminal violence--my sister's far worse than my own. In each case my first reaction was a strong impulse to hunt down the perpetrator and take revenge. The though of 'scratching this itch' was a very pleasant one, and hard to let go. Given your friendly nature, maybe you'll be able to bypass this stage. Though it might be temoprarily subdued by cultivation of friendliness, compassion, gladness and equanimity, ultimately, the only freedom from this malice-begotten-malice is the arising of genuine understanding toward the 'perpetrator'--as Khun Sujin and Robert pointed out, 'no killer--no gun'. I'm very glad you've come away physically unharmed. As Num said, do be careful. This world is ruled by craving, malice and ignorance--any of us might be a victim at any time. Thank you for this reminder of the actions that can result from passion and sensuality carried to their extremes. A very sobering lesson on the importance of understanding the nature of the unwholesome roots. mike 4307 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Num Thank you for you support and care, I really appreciate. To tell you the truth I am having a kind of retroactive response to it. And I am feeling quite insecure going around, looking at people that comes close to me with big eyes and apprehension; considering that normally I am very bold is weird for me to react like that. Yesterday I asked a friend to keep me company on the way back home as he lives nearby and Saturday evening in London lots of people have fun getting drunk to loosen up tensions and I was not feeling very confortable. Then don't worry I am being careful and watching out but however we cannot control such situations; we have our individual kamma and a collective kamma as well to cope with. I suppose I was too relaxed as living for one year in Thailand I have never been harrassed by a man. Good to know that you care. A hug Cybele >From: Num >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - >Erik/Herman >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:02:27 EST > >Hi Cybele, > >Good to hear that you are safe and come back in one piece. I don't know >it's kamma or not but be cautious OK. I am a little mad (at the guy) >hearing this. I agree, it's better to be optimistic and trust other but >you >have to be realistic as well, girl. > >Be careful and take good care of your self. > >Warm regard from St.Louis, > >Num > 4308 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Amara Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of delayed reaction I suppose. I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am feeling depressed. Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that the survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode. But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I felt to share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my emotions. Thank you for your care and good wishes. Love Cybele >Dear Cybele, > >I'm so glad you escaped relatively unscathed!!! > >I really felt a lot of dosa from what you related, and mudita that >your kusala kept you from worse, do take care and have a safe and >pleasant remaining stay in London and trip home! > >Do keep us posted, > >Amara > 4309 From: mike nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:38am Subject: Re: Samma-Vayama Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a > reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions of > the path factors in that same context must be read > accordingly. > > Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors instead > of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the > suttas, as far as I know. This is the development of > satipatthana. I ran across this great discourse by chance this morning, and it seems to me to address what I was aiming at when I mistakenly referred to the 'mundane eightfold path'. "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." Majjhima Nikaya 117 Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta The Great Forty http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html This goes on to describe the other path factors in the same way--with asavas and (Noble) without asavas. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." Am I mistaken in reading into this that there is a Noble Eightfold path for the Ariyapuggala and a (non-Noble) ('five-fold') path for the puthujjana? > But again, the description of the path factors is > descriptive of the functions of the relevant cetasikas > that arise at that moment, rather than being a > direction to the listener to develop each of those > factors individually. Further on, he says of each of the first five path factors that 'right view, right effort and right mindfulness run and circle around' it, and that 'this is one's right mindfulness'. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right speech. "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right action. "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right livelihood. Interestingly, it stops here--right effort and right mindfulness are present only by 'running and circling around' the first five factors and there is no mention at all of (non-Noble) right concentration. I take these to be the five factors of the mundane path you mention above? So it seems that all of the first five path factors, 'run and circled around by right view, right effort and right mindfulness' ARE right mindfulness AND right effort (as opposed to Noble Right Mindfulness and Noble Right Effort). This would seem to support your statement above that, "Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors instead of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the suttas, as far as I know. This is the development of satipatthana." Is this what you were referring to? This seems to stress a very specific emphasis on and relationship between right view, right effort and right mindfulness that I don't recall seeing elsewhere in the Suttanta or the Vinaya. I still haven't sorted out all the implications of this. It does seem to me at least to place some importance on mundane right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood and right effort to the puthujjana. Does this make sense to your reading? Thanks in advance. mike 4310 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed Dear Robert > >Dear Cybele, >I was worried to hear of your terrible expereince yesterday. >I guess you must be feeling bad now since it happend just hours >ago. Well short after I felt relieved and grateful to be unharmed but now my mood is flattened and I am feeling sad, deprived of energy. And since then my mind just keep focusing on it trying to understand, to 'digest', to find a logical pattern. >I was robbed in the Phillipines once. Not so bad as yours as >they only menaced me and took my money; no knives and they >weren't after my virtue. But still I was stunned. I know you meant well and you do really care about me Rob but you see this word 'virtue' is almost mocking the way a woman feel when she is sexually threatened. A male never, ever will be able to understand the extent of the devastation that a woman feel even being only touched or handled against her will. You feel powerless, crushed down, without any defense, a perfect fool, a total nonentity. It's one of the most disgusting, overwhelming, hurtful sensations a male will never have to be forced to experience. It's awful. I went back home and scrubbed myself till I was sore. >For me the thinking went: "I hope they rot in hell for this deed >etc. etc." Thus the thinking was initially rooted in strong >anger. I was not angry then, I was scared and feeling so stupid for my carelessness, blaming myself actually. Fear and disgust for the violence that brings a man to behave like that and a woman to submit to this brutality. >Then later I felt very vulnerable: thinking rooted in >fear (another type of dosa). This is like I am feeling now, I am flattened down, feeling insecure, watching out and recognizing that I will be powerless the same if it happens again but I cannot lock myself inside a house. You walk down the street and you hear steps behind you and your heartbeat accelerates. Yes I feel vulnerable. >Later on I just thought I was lucky >they didn't cut my throat while they were at it. I felt grateful at the very moment he released me and kept repeating inside me like a reassuring mantra that I was safe, thanks, thanks to god, or my kamma, or buddha, just thanks he did not rape me. And at the same time I blamed myself to don't realizing the danger. I felt a fool. After so many years travelling around letting myself be caught defenceless like that. >These are the patterns of thinking that arose - in my case- >because of past accumulations and deep tendencies. While this >was going on there was also a level of investigation that >studied the thinking and the underlying roots. It's difficult to believe but while was happening my mind kept investigating it; thinking why, what drives his mind and emotions to inflict me this pain? I just managed to keep telling him, please don't, don't I trust you are not going to harm me, I trust you, I trust you and incredible he looked at me while handling me harsh and he was startled, something in my voice, in my eyes touched him. >One sees that only while we are thinking about the incident is >there fear or anger. If we don't think about it what then? >However, thinking is conditioned and will arise - anatta. Yes Robert but evil can be quite consistent and it hurts. What goes on in the mental processes of a person that resorts to violence? In his brutality he was not totally unmindful as he released me. > >The thinking strongly conditions the roots that arise at the >same time and so too the roots (dosa, ignorance, craving and >non-dosa wisdom , detachment)condition the thinking. We cannot >just think as we wish to: if we could there would be no truth of >anatta. > It is completely natural to be upset about such a savage >incident. The reason being that we cling deeply to self. When we >study about kamma/vipaka this can help us let go a little of >this clinging as that understanding supports insight of nama and >rupa. Even a sakadagami can have fear at such times - but an >anagami can't because they have less ignorance. >I wrote a while back about how khun sujin said to someone about >a murderer: that there is no killer, no gun, no bullet and no >self. This is so hard to see and can only be known by breaking >down - each by themself- the concepts and clinging we have about >self and situation into moments of nama and rupa, into moments >of vipaka (result), moments of kamma(intention) etc. etc. >I certainly don't say I can do this but I have an idea of how it >can be done and the advantages of doing so are clear. I would like to further discuss this but now they are closing this internet center. Later I will continue. > >Thanks for telling us about this awful incident Cybele and know >that we are all wishing you well. >robert > Thank you Rob, I appreciate your concern. I just felt like sharing because for me Dhamma is real, burning life and not sterile theory. Love Cybele 4311 From: Erik Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 6:10am Subject: Re: cognize nibbana --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara) > cognizes Nibanna (asankhara). However, I note that Citta > also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all, > which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no > conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall). Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti meaning "concept"-- MUST be a sankhara dhamma, because it comes into being based on causes and conditions, even though it is an "unchanging phenomenon". This simply means it lacks the property of disintegratedness--such as the FACT of "roundness of the earth" lacks disintegratedness, meaning the CONCEPT "roundness" doesn't disintegrate, though it ceases to function once the object it's applied to disintegrates, such as the earth blowing up. Because a pannatti applies to a sankhara dhamma it depends by definition; in other words, it's still a sankhara dhamma because it depends on a basis of designation, such as "earth." So I think we may have different understanding of pannatti if you say it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify if I'm messing up the definition of it, and what you mean by lacking characteristics. To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to have enough of a characteristic to perform the function of characterizing what it's referring to. That would be the "characteristic" of that given pannatti to my understanding. 4312 From: Erik Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 6:49am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Then I suppose I was right dear Erik, you have chosen to IGNORE ME. You found me out! I have to confess, I have specifically chosen to ignore YOU. It's all about ignoring "Cybele, the dynamic meditator." It's been hard, I admit, but there you have it. > It means that I am not your 'cup of coffee' anyway it seems. > And means also that you are not so compassionate, don't you think that you > are being discriminative with me? You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give you an idea of just who you're dealing with here. 4313 From: Num Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Hi again Cybele, It's sad to hear that you are feeling down and discourage. Give your self some time to recover, you just have been through the most terrible experience in your life. It's normal to feel disgusted, scared, doubtful, to blame yourself or to be angry. I hope you use this experience as a great lesson for knowing yourself and dhamma and I hope it will never happen again. One is more than enough, I know. I like the idiom, our loss is our gain, mean we can see thing in different angle and perspective and we can make best out of everything. We can learn from our best and worst moment, as you said life is so real. Flashback and startled response usually happen for a while. Sound like you are not that angry with the man at this point. As you probably know, emotion and feeling are conditional dhamma. They arise, sustain and fall away by causes and conditions. We love ourselves as does everybody else. Again be careful, I think it's a very smart idea to have a company esp. when you are in this stage of feeling and emotion. Tell me you learn something from it and will let go and move on. Give yourself some time for recovery. I appreciate your kindness and thanks for sharing your experience and your "life" with us. Hope you get well very soon and again share with us a sunny radiant attitude. Num 4314 From: Erik Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:03am Subject: Re: : Sanna --- "Amara" wrote: > > Dear K. Kom, > > "Just for the papanca of it"... I am keeping that one, Amara! I love it! :) 4315 From: Num Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Hi K.Amara, Well, after a long discussion with Kom, I still cannot come to the clear definition and character of sanna, (as well as manasikara, vitakka and vicara). So far, I understand that sanna marks or registers arammana as well as performs a function of recallection in memory retrival process. I mentioned that memory basically has three characters, registration, retention and recall. You also said the power of sanna varies from citta to citta and also by other paccaya. Rgding Anantarupanissaya-paccaya and Anantara paccaya, I think Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is kind of subset of anantara paccaya and overlaps with anatara paccaya in a sense that it causes the immediate subsequent-citta the same kind of citta but anatara can cause any kinds of citta arise immediately afterward. Dhamma is deep, glad that I have to share and study with you. I need to study more, mean more questions to come :) Num 4316 From: Howard Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Hi, Cybele - In a message dated 3/25/01 2:59:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cybele writes: > Dear Amara > > Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in > recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of delayed > reaction I suppose. > I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am feeling > depressed. > Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that the > survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode. > But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I felt > to > share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my emotions. > Thank you for your care and good wishes. > > Love > Cybele > ================================= Some psychologists say that depression is sometimes anger misdirected towards oneself. Both anger and depression hurt the one who carries the emotion. Please don't let that dog's action have any more ill effect on you than the event itself directly did - let there be no repercussions. If you have to feel one or the other of anger and depression, choose anger so that at least it is appropriately directed. But, if you possibly can, please try to cultivate compassion, both for yourself and for the poor soul who has sunk so low. I don't think that either anger or depression can survive long in the face of compassion. Be well, and feel safe and secure. I have the sense, that, in a certain way, whatever should befall us, we are ultimately "safe". May you feel the same. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4318 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 338 Dear Jon, Just returned from Turkey and so am quite far behind in catching up with the various digests and letters from the group. But just having read your description of right view in digest 338, I would like to ask you how right view would then differ from sati and right understanding (panna), according to your description? While right understanding on an initial level must be pariyati (intellectual understanding), it does, as Dan noted, later become a higher level of understanding when, given the conditions to have arisen, satipatthana occurs, i.e., when sati, sampajjana and panna have arisen. With metta, Betty Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 338 > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:05:25 +0800 (CST) > From: Jonothan Abbott > Subject: Re: On Right View > > In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the factors of > the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, it occurs with > each moment of true awareness of reality. > Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental factor > of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana. > Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the > characteristic of a reality experienced by citta > (moment of consciousness) at that moment. > > Only at such moments of such awareness can we say that > there is right view. So in suttanta or abhidhamma > terms, right view does not refer to a view that > someone holds about the world or about dhamma > generally. > > Jon > ________________________________________________________________________ > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:36:06 -0000 > From: "Dan Dalthorp" > Subject: Re: On Right View > > Jon, > Your view of right view is very narrow compared to what I read in the > suttas. Mundane right view begins with intellectual acceptance of > kamma/vipaka. From there, it is developed into intellectual > understanding and acceptance of the four noble truths. It is further > developed and developed, and gradually the right view becomes right > view based on direct experience. > > This is indeed an interesting and important subject. Time permitting, > I will find some references to chew on soon. > > Dan > > 4319 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Erik (with apologies for getting your name wrong in my previous posts) Whether or not concepts (pannatti) are conditioned realities (sankhara dhammas) must as you say depend to some extent on one's definition of the terms, but as far as the Pali canon is concerned I think the position is quite clear. This is that there is a clear distinction between 'ultimate realities' (paramattha dhammas), which are 'with individual essence' (sabhava), on the one hand, and concepts (pannatti), which are 'without individual essence' (abhava) on the other. The question of what exactly is meant by 'with/without individual essence' here also depends on one's definition. Pannatti are entirely a creation of the mind, and therefore have no substance whatsoever. I am not aware of any reference in the Pali literature to the 'property of disintegratedness' test which you refer to. This distinction is of great practical importance because the panna that that is to be developed at a moment of satipatthana/vipassana has the function of knowing the characteristic of a paramattha dhamma but not that of a concept. Knowledge of concepts does not lead towards the lifting of the veil of ignorance. You might be interested to look at some earlier posts on this subject. See messages # 2918, 2932, 3362 (+ 3409) and 3494 in the archives and the other messages listed under Concepts and Realities in the 'Useful Links' document at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files. Jon > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti > meaning "concept"-- > MUST be a sankhara dhamma, because it comes into > being based on > causes and conditions, even though it is an > "unchanging phenomenon". > This simply means it lacks the property of > disintegratedness--such as > the FACT of "roundness of the earth" lacks > disintegratedness, meaning > the CONCEPT "roundness" doesn't disintegrate, though > it ceases to > function once the object it's applied to > disintegrates, such as the > earth blowing up. > > Because a pannatti applies to a sankhara dhamma it > depends by > definition; in other words, it's still a sankhara > dhamma because it > depends on a basis of designation, such as "earth." > > So I think we may have different understanding of > pannatti if you say > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify if > I'm messing up > the definition of it, and what you mean by lacking > characteristics. > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to have > enough of a > characteristic to perform the function of > characterizing what it's > referring to. That would be the "characteristic" of > that given > pannatti to my understanding. > 4320 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma) Dear mike, Could you explain the difference? Robert > (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are two > different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's > excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @ > http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm) > > mike 4321 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:22am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman > Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in > recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of delayed > reaction I suppose. > I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am feeling > depressed. > Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that the > survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode. > But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I felt to > share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my emotions. Dear Cybele, It is indeed wonderful that you think of the dhamma in such a situation, in fact what better time to study realities as they arise, although for us it must be cause for much dosa, as the strong memory arises from conditions now. You in your optimistic attitude and warm nature would probably be more used to lobha than dosa but you might see that what the Buddha taught; that lobha is the cause of dosa, is very true too. One is attached to the happy feeling that is followed by the unpleasant whenever the desired feeling subsides, or happiness does not happen, or when anything one dislikes happens. Yet all are bound to change, that is part of the universal tilakkhana, exempting nibbana. Nibbana, according to KS, is the ultimate peace since it does not change, it does not arise nor fall away, being permanent. Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be very subtle, as in each time the body sense is in contact with something that is not causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can only be lobha or dosa as vedana, and no upekkha. Or it can be very strong aversion to something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest form, a thundering anger. All day the dosa in the subtle forms accompany us, ready to blaze at the right conditions, and it is better to know it as such, a bad accumulation no one is without except the anagami upwards. Meanwhile everything changes, the horrible experience you had is in fact memory at this time, real as it may seem even now. As KS said, even the greatest physical pain could not last 24 hrs a day, since all the other present arammana arise through other dvara, especially the bhavanga. Even when there is physical pain arising, it can't last all of an entire minute, since one can still see, hear, think etc, all through. Which is why a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka was able to study the pain as a tiger ate him from the foot up; and attain arahantship before he died. My point is that whatever dosa or dukkha dukkha vedana one has, the Buddha taught us that the mind is also very important in adding or attenuating the dosa arising from it. As KS said, the initial pain is unavoidable kamma, but the worrying and trouble is our own accumulations at work. I quote from 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' in the advanced section of , While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the first arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No matter how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites. If there were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and trouble to it. To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought that does not help in any way. When there is illness we should take care of it without wasting time worrying about it. (End quote) Of course when there are conditions anything can arise, but the Buddha teaches us to do the best we can in any given situation and be 'brave and cheerful' in the dhamma, and keep studying the present moment which can bring us wisdom in the most horrible situations. With our accumulations it might sound just this side of madness, but you see many situations in the Tipitaka of this happening, therefore it must be possible and worth studying and proving even in real life situations. One thing that is true is that it can't last 24 hrs a day, even if it is our accumulation to think of it over and over, but in fact it is past, dear Cybele, now just a memory, another thought. Luckily it is now over, the tiger didn't really get you, don't let him win now!!! As Num said, it is much better to be cautious and not let it have the conditions to happen again, do be careful and it is wiser to be accompanied in certain neighborhoods, and not give akusala vipaka much condition to arise. When things happen after all the precautions have been taken we can really see that it was meant to be, but most of the time we should do our best not to condone to the wrong conditions as far as one can without worrying about it too much. We must keep our lives in order to study the dhamma, as I once said to some friends, I'm not so afraid of dying or even rebirth, it is the learning process that is so daunting!!! Especially since none can guarantee that we should even hear the dhamma in our next lifetimes. So this is the lifetime we can count on to accumulate as much as we can learn, of this supreme treasure we have found, and the only one we can take with us to wherever we are going next. The realities that appear to be studied might not appeal to your lobha, but might give you knowledge of other strong tendencies, (which might or might not arise again from conditions in the future), arising in alternation with present arammana, through the eyes, ears, etc., even as you read this. Studying it would not only keep akusala thoughts and memories from arising at that citta moment, but also give you that much more knowledge of realities as they really are. Nothing, even the most unpleasant, really last; but as Num said, give yourself time to let go and become your sunny self again, possibly with even more wisdom of things as they really are. May the Buddha's 'bravery and cheerfulness' arise in you, Amara 4322 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mundane Eightfold Path factors Mike Many thanks for bringing up the 'Great Forty' sutta, which as you say seems to be relevant to the subject of the Eightfold Path. I would like to respond after I have had a chance to read the sutta more fully. Just a quick comment at this stage. The 5 factors dealt with in detail in the sutta are not the 5 factors of the mundane Eightfold Path I was referring to, namely the eight Path factors excluding the 3 abstinences (virati) of right speech, action and livelihood. So the mundane path factors as i know them do include right concentration and right mindfulness. Jon --- mike nease wrote: > Jon, > > --- Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a > > reference to the supramundane path, so > descriptions of > > the path factors in that same context must be read > > accordingly. > > > > Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors > instead > > of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in > the > > suttas, as far as I know. This is the development > of > > satipatthana. > > I ran across this great discourse by chance this > morning, and it > seems to me to address what I was aiming at when I > mistakenly > referred to the 'mundane eightfold path'. > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is > of two sorts: > There is right view with fermentations [asava], > siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and > there is noble right > view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor > of the path." > > Majjhima Nikaya 117 > Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta > The Great Forty > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > This goes on to describe the other path factors in > the same way--with > asavas and (Noble) without asavas. > > "And what is the right view that is without > fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, > the faculty of > discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis > of qualities as a > factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view > in one developing > the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is > free from > fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble > path. This is the > right view that is without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of > the path." > > Am I mistaken in reading into this that there is a > Noble Eightfold > path for the Ariyapuggala and a (non-Noble) > ('five-fold') path for > the puthujjana? > > > But again, the description of the path factors is > > descriptive of the functions of the relevant > cetasikas > > that arise at that moment, rather than being a > > direction to the listener to develop each of those > > factors individually. > > Further on, he says of each of the first five path > factors that > 'right view, right effort and right mindfulness run > and circle > around' it, and that 'this is one's right > mindfulness'. > > "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into > right view: This is > one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong > view & to enter & > remain in right view: This is one's right > mindfulness. Thus these > three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right > mindfulness -- > run & circle around right view. > > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into > right resolve: > This is one's right effort. One is mindful to > abandon wrong resolve & > to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's > right mindfulness. > Thus these three qualities -- right view, right > effort, & right > mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. > > "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into > right speech: This > is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon > wrong speech & to > enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right > mindfulness. Thus > these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & > right > mindfulness -- run & circle around right speech. > > "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into > right action: This > is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon > wrong action & to > enter & remain in right action: This is one's right > mindfulness. Thus > these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & > right > mindfulness -- run & circle around right action. > > "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter > into right > livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is > mindful to abandon > wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right > livelihood: This is > one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities > -- right view, > right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle > around right > livelihood. > > Interestingly, it stops here--right effort and right > mindfulness are > present only by 'running and circling around' the > first five factors > and there is no mention at all of (non-Noble) right > concentration. > > I take these to be the five factors of the mundane > path you mention > above? So it seems that all of the first five path > factors, 'run and > circled around by right view, right effort and right > mindfulness' ARE > right mindfulness AND right effort (as opposed to > Noble Right > Mindfulness and Noble Right Effort). This would > seem to support your > statement above that, "Yes, there is indeed a > mundane path (5 factors > instead of 8), but not mentioned as such by that > name in the suttas, > as far as I know. This is the development of > satipatthana." Is this > what you were referring to? > > This seems to stress a very specific emphasis on and > relationship > between right view, right effort and right > mindfulness that I don't > recall seeing elsewhere in the Suttanta or the > Vinaya. > > I still haven't sorted out all the implications of > this. It does > seem to me at least to place some importance on > mundane right view, > right thought, right speech, right action, right > livelihood and right > effort to the puthujjana. Does this make sense to > your reading? > > Thanks in advance. > > mike > 4323 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:25am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Erik, > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik > > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti > meaning "concept"-- > MUST be a sankhara dhamma, Yes, this is a direct disagreement. My understanding of pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are conditioned.) However, because I lack any evidence in the theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful to discuss this. Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further passages where we can discuss this further. > So I think we may have different understanding of > pannatti if you say > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify > if I'm messing up > the definition of it, and what you mean by > lacking characteristics. What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly experienceable paramatha characteristics. You cannot directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color, visible objects, etc). > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to > have enough of a > characteristic to perform the function of > characterizing what it's > referring to. That would be the "characteristic" > of that given > pannatti to my understanding. The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics and functions. The only thing pannatti has is it is an aramana pacaya to the cittas. It doesn't have paramatha characteristics. This brings up the interesting subject of something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to something that "is there". I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow us to reach an amiccable conclusions. kom 4324 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma) Dear Robert, Bhavana: becoming; a dwelling place. Bhaavanaa: cultivation (from Paliwords). mike --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear mike, > Could you explain the difference? > Robert > > (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are > two > > different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's > > excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @ > > http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm) > > > > mike 4325 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Cybele, Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos nas diferentes línguas faladas nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação. Abraços da terrinha, Metta, Leonardo Ps: Friends, sorry for the portuguese ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 12:22 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman > > > > Thank you for your interest and please send me metta to help me in > > recovering, I am feeling quite flattened right now and is a kind of > delayed > > reaction I suppose. > > I did not feel anger strangely but fear and disgust and now I am > feeling > > depressed. > > Like the violence is somehow releasing toxines in my mind now that > the > > survival instinct subsided and I recollect the episode. > > But I need to 'get it out of my system' so to speak and that's why I > felt to > > share in the list as well, to decontract and purify my mind and my > emotions. > > > Dear Cybele, > > It is indeed wonderful that you think of the dhamma in such a > situation, in fact what better time to study realities as they arise, > although for us it must be cause for much dosa, as the strong memory > arises from conditions now. You in your optimistic attitude and warm > nature would probably be more used to lobha than dosa but you might > see that what the Buddha taught; that lobha is the cause of dosa, is > very true too. One is attached to the happy feeling that is followed > by the unpleasant whenever the desired feeling subsides, or happiness > does not happen, or when anything one dislikes happens. Yet all are > bound to change, that is part of the universal tilakkhana, exempting > nibbana. Nibbana, according to KS, is the ultimate peace since it > does not change, it does not arise nor fall away, being permanent. > Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be very subtle, as in > each time the body sense is in contact with something that is not > causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can only be lobha or > dosa as vedana, and no upekkha. Or it can be very strong aversion to > something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest form, a thundering > anger. All day the dosa in the subtle forms accompany us, ready to > blaze at the right conditions, and it is better to know it as such, a > bad accumulation no one is without except the anagami upwards. > > Meanwhile everything changes, the horrible experience you had is in > fact memory at this time, real as it may seem even now. As KS said, > even the greatest physical pain could not last 24 hrs a day, since all > the other present arammana arise through other dvara, especially the > bhavanga. Even when there is physical pain arising, it can't last all > of an entire minute, since one can still see, hear, think etc, all > through. Which is why a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka was able to study the > pain as a tiger ate him from the foot up; and attain arahantship > before he died. My point is that whatever dosa or dukkha dukkha > vedana one has, the Buddha taught us that the mind is also very > important in adding or attenuating the dosa arising from it. As KS > said, the initial pain is unavoidable kamma, but the worrying and > trouble is our own accumulations at work. I quote from 'Birth, Age, > Illness and Death' in the advanced section of > , > > While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could > not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of > the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would > be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the first > arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow > that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No matter > how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since > to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites. If there > were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. > > To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly > see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When > there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and > trouble to it. To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought > that does not help in any way. When there is illness we should take > care of it without wasting time worrying about it. > > (End quote) > > Of course when there are conditions anything can arise, but the Buddha > teaches us to do the best we can in any given situation and be 'brave > and cheerful' in the dhamma, and keep studying the present moment > which can bring us wisdom in the most horrible situations. With our > accumulations it might sound just this side of madness, but you see > many situations in the Tipitaka of this happening, therefore it must > be possible and worth studying and proving even in real life > situations. One thing that is true is that it can't last 24 hrs a > day, even if it is our accumulation to think of it over and over, but > in fact it is past, dear Cybele, now just a memory, another thought. > Luckily it is now over, the tiger didn't really get you, don't let him > win now!!! As Num said, it is much better to be cautious and not let > it have the conditions to happen again, do be careful and it is wiser > to be accompanied in certain neighborhoods, and not give akusala > vipaka much condition to arise. When things happen after all the > precautions have been taken we can really see that it was meant to be, > but most of the time we should do our best not to condone to the wrong > conditions as far as one can without worrying about it too much. > > We must keep our lives in order to study the dhamma, as I once said to > some friends, I'm not so afraid of dying or even rebirth, it is the > learning process that is so daunting!!! Especially since none can > guarantee that we should even hear the dhamma in our next lifetimes. > So this is the lifetime we can count on to accumulate as much as we > can learn, of this supreme treasure we have found, and the only one we > can take with us to wherever we are going next. The realities that > appear to be studied might not appeal to your lobha, but might give > you knowledge of other strong tendencies, (which might or might not > arise again from conditions in the future), arising in alternation > with present arammana, through the eyes, ears, etc., even as you read > this. Studying it would not only keep akusala thoughts and memories > from arising at that citta moment, but also give you that much more > knowledge of realities as they really are. Nothing, even the most > unpleasant, really last; but as Num said, give yourself time to let go > and become your sunny self again, possibly with even more wisdom of > things as they really are. > > May the Buddha's 'bravery and cheerfulness' arise in you, > > Amara > 4326 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:31am Subject: Re: : Sanna > > "Just for the papanca of it"... > I am keeping that one, Amara! I love it! :) Hi, Erik, Loved most of your recent posts! Would also like to recommend you take a look at the chapter of pannatti in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced section of , by the way! Enjoy!!! =^_^= Amara 4327 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mundane Eightfold Path factors Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: read the sutta more fully. > Just a quick comment at this stage. The 5 factors > dealt with in detail in the sutta are not the 5 > factors of the mundane Eightfold Path I was > referring to, namely the eight Path factors > excluding the 3 abstinences (virati) of right > speech, action and livelihood. So the mundane path > factors as i know them do include right > concentration and right mindfulness. A different five--interesting. I look forward to reading more after you've read the Great Forty. mike 4328 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Leonardo --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > > Cybele, > > Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos > nas diferentes línguas faladas > nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação. > > Abraços da terrinha, > > Metta, > Leonardo > > Ps: Friends, sorry for the portuguese ... That's OK, as long as it's dhamma!! Good to hear from one of our 'lurking' members. Jon 4329 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:35am Subject: Cybele, the dynamic meditator Cybele I, too, was very sorry to hear about you unfortunate incident, and hope that you are managing OK now. It must have been an awful experience. Jon. 4330 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:43am Subject: Re: : Sanna > Well, after a long discussion with Kom, I still cannot come to the clear > definition and character of sanna, (as well as manasikara, vitakka and > vicara). > > So far, I understand that sanna marks or registers arammana as well as > performs a function of recallection in memory retrival process. I mentioned > that memory basically has three characters, registration, retention and > recall. You also said the power of sanna varies from citta to citta and > also by other paccaya. Dear K. Num, It's all as intricate as 'we' are, since it forms our 'selves'!!! But I have just been telling Betty how amazing it is to follow your progress in acquiring at least the theoretical knowledge of the dhamma, in so short a time. Anumodana! > Rgding Anantarupanissaya-paccaya and Anantara paccaya, I think > Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is kind of subset of anantara paccaya and overlaps > with anatara paccaya in a sense that it causes the immediate subsequent-citta > the same kind of citta but anatara can cause any kinds of citta arise > immediately afterward. Can we say that anatara is the regarding it from an 'eternal' point of view, from kamma of eternities past that would keep the succession of citta going on into the infinite future? Anantarupa nissaya is more specific in that once the citta has done something like played the video game for the first time, although it must have played an infinite variety of games before through samsara. It would be cause for lobha for the video game in the future, for that kind of citta to arise, (upanissaya paccaya) but arise in the right order as well, not for example having lobha arise before phassa. Another point I would like to mention is that what you call overlapping is to me different perspectives or approaches to the same problem, for example you can study the citta from the angle of its nature (or 'birth', in pali 'jati',); or from the kind of cetasika that arises with it, or from its function, etc. Put together it should still be the same citta, just from different angles, much like the multiple camera system that gives you a 3 dimensional look at an event, remember 'The Matrix'? You will find this in all the 'ancient' analysis of the dhamma!!! But all this to show that there is in fact no self or anything that we can experience that lasts, all arise from conditions and are under no one's control. And still we need to hear more details, always. ...Until the study is finally finished, with arahantship!!! > Dhamma is deep, glad that I have to share and study with you. Loving all of it myself!!! >I need to study more, mean more questions to come :) Love you questions, they make me exercise the gray matter muscles- (…you think it might help keep Alzheimer's at any distance?) =^_^= Amara 4331 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman > Ps: Friends, sorry for the portuguese ... > That's OK, as long as it's dhamma!! Yes, it's portuguese dhamma ! :-)) > Good to hear from one of our 'lurking' members. Metta, Leonardo one of the lurking dhamma friends :-) 4332 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma) Thanks mike, just to clarify. whenever I write bhavana I mean development. Not the first meaning. Bhavana is a common way of writing bhaavanaa. Just as daana is most often written dana. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Bhavana: becoming; a dwelling place. > > Bhaavanaa: cultivation > > (from Paliwords). > > mike > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear mike, > > Could you explain the difference? > > Robert > > > (4) reminding me that bhavana and bhaavanaa are > > two > > > different words...! (thanks also to Andy Shaw's > > > excellent tool, Paliwords, available free @ > > > http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/palwor.htm) > > > > > > mike > > > > > > 4333 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman --- "Leonardo Neves" wrote: > > Cybele, > > Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos nas diferentes línguas faladas > nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação. > > Abraços da terrinha, > > Metta, > Leonardo > > Ps: Friends, sorry for the portuguese ... Dear Leonardo, Your tender metta can be felt through any language curtain... as always, Anumodana, Amara 4334 From: Howard Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, Kom (and Erik, and all) - In a message dated 3/25/01 10:27:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kom writes: > Dear Erik, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Erik > > > > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti > > meaning "concept"-- > > MUST be a sankhara dhamma, > > Yes, this is a direct disagreement. My understanding of > pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and > therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are > conditioned.) However, because I lack any evidence in the > theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful > to discuss this. Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further > passages where we can discuss this further. > > > So I think we may have different understanding of > > pannatti if you say > > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify > > if I'm messing up > > the definition of it, and what you mean by > > lacking characteristics. > > What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas > lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly > experienceable paramatha characteristics. You cannot > directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can > directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color, > visible objects, etc). > > > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to > > have enough of a > > characteristic to perform the function of > > characterizing what it's > > referring to. That would be the "characteristic" > > of that given > > pannatti to my understanding. > > The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics > and functions. The only thing pannatti has is it is an > aramana pacaya to the cittas. It doesn't have paramatha > characteristics. This brings up the interesting subject of > something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to > something that "is there". > > I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow > us to reach an amiccable conclusions. > > kom > ================================= I think that what may be going on here is that the term 'pannatti' / 'concept' is being used here to stand for what I am used to thinking as the *referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a thought. There are concepts such as 'color' which have as reference what are here called paramattha dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' which seem to reference things, but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena that are direct elements of experience. Without the concept of 'color', we can still detect colors (though we may not so characterize them). Colors, as objects, do not exist independent of being observed, but they *can* exist independent of the *concept* of 'color'. On the other hand, while it *seems* that we experience a car, we actually only experience a spatial and temporal pattern of paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the thought / concept of 'car' to refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car per se is not to be found independent of the concept of car, it is empty and without characteristic. In a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I see this matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4335 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Amara, > Your tender metta can be felt through any language curtain... as > always, > Anumodana, > Amara Your lovely words make me feel at home. The thing the most I like, as a compulsive lurker :-), is to listen the profound dhamma in this list - the best I've ever met. Metta, Leonardo 4336 From: Howard Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, all - Let me add a slight addendum as a clarification. In a message dated 3/25/01 11:03:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, Howard writes: > There are concepts > such as 'color' which have as reference what are here called paramattha > dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' which seem to reference > things, > but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena that are direct elements of > =============================== Even in the case of a concept such as 'color', the reference is without characteristic. While particular colors of particular objects are directly observed phenomena, the referent of the concept 'color' is intended to be something we might call "color-in-general", an alleged "thing" which has never been observed, and which certainly is without characteristic. Thus, *every* concept, from 'color' to 'car' is similar in this respect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4337 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:41pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Howard, Thanks for contributing. It is always good to hear a well-thought-out, well-written, in its most nitty-gritty details, even when we disagree. > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard > > I think that what may be going on here is > that the term 'pannatti' / > 'concept' is being used here to stand for what I > am used to thinking as the > *referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a > thought. There are concepts > such as 'color' which have as reference what are > here called paramattha > dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' > which seem to reference things, > but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena > that are direct elements of > experience. Without the concept of 'color', we > can still detect colors > (though we may not so characterize them). Agreed so far. Although I wonder if anybody lives without the concepts? > Colors, > as objects, do not exist > independent of being observed, but they *can* > exist independent of the > *concept* of 'color'. I think we discuss this disagreement in the past (epistemological discussions in messages 3737, 3738, 3740, 3747, and 3750). I think paramatha objects exist independent of being observed, although at that point, a paramatha object wouldn't be an aramana pacaya to the arising of a nama. > On the other hand, while it > *seems* that we experience > a car, we actually only experience a spatial and > temporal pattern of > paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the > thought / concept of 'car' to > refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car > per se is not to be found > independent of the concept of car, it is empty > and without characteristic. In > a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I > see this matter. > I think our views are similar on this point. I say (grossly) it doesn't exist because it has no paramatha characteristics. kom 4338 From: Howard Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, Kom - In a message dated 3/25/01 11:42:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kom writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for contributing. It is always good to hear a > well-thought-out, well-written, in its most nitty-gritty > details, even when we disagree. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the flattering words. Actually, as I read on it seems we disagree only on one aspect here. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Howard > > > > I think that what may be going on here is > > that the term 'pannatti' / > > 'concept' is being used here to stand for what I > > am used to thinking as the > > *referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a > > thought. There are concepts > > such as 'color' which have as reference what are > > here called paramattha > > dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' > > which seem to reference things, > > but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena > > that are direct elements of > > experience. Without the concept of 'color', we > > can still detect colors > > (though we may not so characterize them). > > Agreed so far. Although I wonder if anybody lives without > the concepts? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, definitely not! Concepts are essential for humans to live in this world. We just shouldn't get "caught" by them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Colors, > > as objects, do not exist > > independent of being observed, but they *can* > > exist independent of the > > *concept* of 'color'. > > I think we discuss this disagreement in the past > (epistemological discussions in messages 3737, 3738, 3740, > 3747, and 3750). I think paramatha objects exist > independent of being observed, although at that point, a > paramatha object wouldn't be an aramana pacaya to the > arising of a nama. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a point of disagreement. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > On the other hand, while it > > *seems* that we experience > > a car, we actually only experience a spatial and > > temporal pattern of > > paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the > > thought / concept of 'car' to > > refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car > > per se is not to be found > > independent of the concept of car, it is empty > > and without characteristic. In > > a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I > > see this matter. > > > > I think our views are similar on this point. I say > (grossly) it doesn't exist because it has no paramatha > characteristics. > > kom > ================================== Thanks for writing, Kom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4339 From: moderators Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:27pm Subject: List guidelines-Shin Dear Shin, Please take careful not of the guidelines for this list. Petitions (however worthy the cause) are NOT permitted. Thank you for your support. kind regards, Jon & Sarah 4340 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:12pm Subject: paccaya- conditions Dear Kom & Amara, I've been appreciating all your dynamic correspondence and am usually a couple of days behind. Now I'm only one day behind, so pls read any of my comments in that light!! 1. anantara (proximity) and samanantara (contguity) conditions. Kom, you mentioned that in A.Santi's explanation that these were the same but you were not convinced. Let me convince you!! From U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations: 'There is no difference between these two conditions as regards the states involved and the conditioning forces which bring about the relations. They difer only in terms as stated in Vism. 'The difference here is only in the letter (word), there is none in the meaning.' He goes on to say that for some it is helpful to understand that there is no chance for 'a break in the sequence of mental states b/c it causes a subsequent mental state to arise immediately after' but for others it is more helpful to hear that although the subsequent state arises 'there is no chance for it to arise as it likes but does so in accordance with the fixed order of mental process....' I've heard K.Sujin say just the same. 2. Anantara-upanissaya paccaya (proximity decisive- support condition) I'm quoting from the same book: 'Difference from anantara (proximity). Anantara-upanissaya paccaya is the same as anantara paccaya with respect to the states involved but there is a slight difference in the forces by which they are related. The force which causes the subsequent conditioned states of mentality to arise immediately after the ceasing of the preceding states, the conditioning states, is known as proximity force. But the force which causes the subsequewnt conditioned states of mentality to aise because they are strongly dependent on the ceasing of the preceding states, the conditioning states, is known as anantara upanissaya paccaya.' I'm not sure if that helps at all... To all, I'm sure many on the list will wonder why we would be interested in studying these details at all. I think the value is only in as much as it can help us to know more about the present realities. We can see (in theory) that for any reality to arise at the present moment, there are a number of very complex conditions working together to form up the given reality. It's not just a matter of kamma cause and effect, although kamma is one very important condition. We may wonder why Cybele had her unpleasant experience or why she was spared worse. By knowing just a little about conditions, we can see how impossible it is to ever know why the realities experienced now are just the way they are but we learn to have confidence that they could not be any different. Like the ingredients in a cake, given the ingredients and way of cooking, how could it turn out differently? How could there be any self in it? It's not necessary to learn all the details, but some conditions such as arammana (object condition) become more obvious with awareness of realities. We should always keep the purpose of our studies in mind unless we are just out to have fun 'for the sake of papanca'!! Sarah 4341 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:20pm Subject: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book Dear Betty & Tom, The heading is to get Tom's attention. Tom is my 21yr old nephew in England. He's completely new to Buddhism, Betty, but he has joined the list recently and is lurking in the background to see if he can learn anything. Betty, before you went to Turkey (hope you had a good trip btw), you asked for suggestions for a book for raw beginners. There wasn't much (any?) response, probably because it was around the same time Erik made his grand debut. I'm just trying to read Tom's mind a little, to see if this helps give you any clues: 1. He would know no pali words at all 2. he probably knows a little about the life story of the buddha 3. He's probably heard about nibbana, maybe the noble truth of suffering and I doubt much else. 4. He would know something about the Dalai Lama He'd probably like to hear about: 1. What are the 'core' teachings in brief 2. What is different from other religions 3. Why people like his aunt (who he seldom sees) were brought up strictly as Christians and then became Buddhists 4. Whether all kinds of Buddhism are the same 5. How it helps in life, especially when one doesn't have any special problems Maybe others will add their notes or comments. Tom, it would help Betty and the rest of us a lot if you would reply to this and let us know what you are interested to find out. Also pls check out the messages under the heading 'new to the list and new to Buddhism' in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm Betty & Tom, I'm sure others will tell you what their recommended books for beginners are if you ask. Tom, are the beaches and country lanes around your house still banned b/c of the mad cow disease? Hope the job's going well. Best wishes, Sarah 4342 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 0:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Dana & Bhavana Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Thanks mike, > just to clarify. whenever I write bhavana I mean > development. > Not the first meaning. Bhavana is a common way of > writing > bhaavanaa. Just as daana is most often written dana. > robert Right--thanks. mike 4343 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:34pm Subject: Welcome to old friends Dear Steve & Diane, I've just been looking in vain for your message on list to reply to but I'm afraid it's got lost in all the others. Anyway, it's great you've got here and I'd be very interested to hear how you're finding the list so far. It's very busy at the moment, I know. I have fond memories of our dhamma discussions in Hong Kong and with Steve in Jasper, Canada. We're collecting a few Canadians on list: Jim A in Ontario, Ann in Vancouver, Joyce in Ontario (I think) and now you in Edmonton...I'm sure there are others too... It sounds wonderful to have sold your businesses and to have more time for dhamma travels and activities. Please spare us a little with any comments or questions. Best wishes to you both, Sarah p.s. Joyce, hope to hear from you again too! 4344 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mana :pride and esteem Dear Num & Erik, I particularly appreciated this post below, Num, with the account of Sariputta. Several years ago with Khun Sujin in India, I remember there was a lot of discussion about the value of considering oneself as a dustrag. There's a very long way to go (for me)! I just want to add one quote which I like a lot from the Atthasalini (!!, Part 1X, 111.256): '..Herein conceit is fancying (deeming, vain imagining). It has haughtiness as characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self like) a banner as manifestation, greed dissociated from opinionativeness as proximate cause, and should be regarded as (a form of) lunacy.' I'm not sure that 'opinionativeness' exists in English, but I am sure that this 'lunacy' raises its ugly head many, many times in a day. Thank you for the good reminders. Btw to all, mana is indicative of clinging to self but does not necessarily indicate wrong view of self. As we all know, the sotapanna has the former, but not the latter. Num, for an extra treat, I'd like to add an old message from Mike because I thionk it's relevant. The first qualities mentioned should be noted: --- Mike wrote: > Robert asked me to post it > to the group for comments. So, excerpted from Access to Insight at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-30.html, > > Eight Thoughts of a Great Person > > As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Good, > Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts of a > great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who > is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for > one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not > for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is > aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose > mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is > confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one > whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with > discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Now then, > Anuruddha, think the eighth thought of a great person: 'This Dhamma > is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non- > complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > To Anuruddha > --- Num wrote: > Hi all, > > As Erik brought up about mana. I would like to > discuss and get some inputs > about mana cetasika. How many different ways can > mana cetasika manifest? > Pride, esteem, feeling of superiority, inferiority, > equality, etc. > > I have read about Ven. Sariputta who said that he > considered himself as only > a dustrag or a floormat. His humbleness is really > impressed me. I admire his > wisdom, his kindness, his patience and his > humbleness. I asked my self do I > like to feel as a dustrag, definitely not. At time > I thought about how being > ariyan feel like. Like a dustrag!?? V.Sariputta > is the foremost Bhuddha > disciple in wisdom 2nd only to the Buddha. When > his mom invited group of > monk for offering food, she was really mean and > sarcastic to the monks. > V.Sariputta was calm and patient. When he was > wrongly accused by a young > monk, and after the Buddha cleared the accusation he > even asked for a pardon > from the younger monk if he had offended him in any > means. A lot more > incidents rgd V.Sariputta's humbleness. > > Recommended reading: The Life of Sariputta, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html > > > What's the consequence of mana? Most people like to > feel superior, like to > be approved. > > > Num 4345 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed Dear cybele, I'm also sorry to her about your very unpleasant experience. I hadn't read the mails when I wrote to you off-list. We never know what will happen at any given moment or how we will react, do we? I have a friend (also in London as it happens) who is really peace-loving and does lots of yoga for relaxation. She was sitting in her car in Westminster, with the window open outside her son's prestigious school, when 2 guys came up and put their arms through the window to grab her bag. She went totally beserk and started fighting them and ended up very badly hurt.... I think she was more shocked by her reaction than by their actions (and she still lost her bag). In other words, it's all very well talking about how one keeps good sila, for example, but we never know (unless we're a sotapanna) how we'll react given different circumstances. She said that what drove her crazy was the thought that they came to rob her outside her little son's school! I'm so glad you were able to persuade the guy to let you go (I had a very, very similar experience when I was young(er!) in Israel). Take care wandering in quiet streets on your own at night in London. At least in Hong Kong, nowhere is quiet and personal attacks are very, very rare. But still, who knows what vipaka may bring? Lots of warm blood on this list as you can see! xxxSarah 4346 From: teng kee ong Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:35pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana -----Original Message----- From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:25:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Kom, I will give the text here.only one pannatti is uncondition.We have two kinds of pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata pannatti(aparinipphana and anipphana).Avijjhamana pannatti like puggala,king ,son, etc are only anipphana but not aparinipphana .So this kind of pannatti can be called half uncondition.It is a condition dhamma for both kind of concepts except asankhata pannatti.see puggala pannatti text,atthakatha,tika and anutika. from Teng Kee > Dear Erik, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Erik > > > > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti > > meaning "concept"-- > > MUST be a sankhara dhamma, > > Yes, this is a direct disagreement. My understanding of > pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and > therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are > conditioned.) However, because I lack any evidence in the > theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful > to discuss this. Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further > passages where we can discuss this further. > > > So I think we may have different understanding of > > pannatti if you say > > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify > > if I'm messing up > > the definition of it, and what you mean by > > lacking characteristics. > > What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas > lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly > experienceable paramatha characteristics. You cannot > directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can > directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color, > visible objects, etc). > > > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to > > have enough of a > > characteristic to perform the function of > > characterizing what it's > > referring to. That would be the "characteristic" > > of that given > > pannatti to my understanding. > > The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics > and functions. The only thing pannatti has is it is an > aramana pacaya to the cittas. It doesn't have paramatha > characteristics. This brings up the interesting subject of > something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to > something that "is there". > > I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow > us to reach an amiccable conclusions. > > kom > 4347 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:51pm Subject: Re: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book > The heading is to get Tom's attention. Tom is my 21yr > old nephew in England. He's completely new to > Buddhism, Betty, but he has joined the list recently > and is lurking in the background to see if he can > learn anything. Dear Tom, A warm welcome from your aunt's Thai friend! If there are any questions I can help you with I shall be most happy to! > Betty, before you went to Turkey (hope you had a good > trip btw), you asked for suggestions for a book for > raw beginners. There wasn't much (any?) response, > probably because it was around the same time Erik made > his grand debut. Dear Sarah and Betty, I think one other reason no one answered was because Betty was going abroad, and after that we probably got so involved with other issues. I think now is a great time to tackle this, especially since Tom is there now also. Betty has been a much loved teacher to her students (and friends! Are we still roommates for India?) for most of her life, Tom, you're lucky she's on the list! > I'm just trying to read Tom's mind a little, to see if > this helps give you any clues: > > 1. He would know no pali words at all > 2. he probably knows a little about the life story of > the buddha > 3. He's probably heard about nibbana, maybe the noble > truth of suffering and I doubt much else. > 4. He would know something about the Dalai Lama > > He'd probably like to hear about: > > 1. What are the 'core' teachings in brief > 2. What is different from other religions > 3. Why people like his aunt (who he seldom sees) were > brought up strictly as Christians and then became > Buddhists > 4. Whether all kinds of Buddhism are the same > 5. How it helps in life, especially when one doesn't > have any special problems > I would like to ask Betty to begin with 1. the meanings of the word dhamma 2. how it is divided into nama and rupa 3. how that is categorized into the 4 paramatthadhamma for a firm basis first, and work from there. This is how I see the ideal beginner's book starting with! What do you think, Betty? Amara 4348 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:56pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana dear teng, this matter is explained in Realities and Concepts by sujin Boriharnwanaket. If you send me your address off-list I still have a few copies left and will airmail it pronto. robert --- teng kee ong wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Kom Tukovinit" > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:25:07 -0800 > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > Dear Kom, > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is uncondition.We > have two kinds of pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti are those > khandha ,dhatu,ayatana pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and > asankhata pannatti(aparinipphana and anipphana).Avijjhamana > pannatti like puggala,king ,son, etc are only anipphana but > not aparinipphana .So this kind of pannatti can be called half > uncondition.It is a condition dhamma for both kind of > concepts except asankhata pannatti.see puggala pannatti > text,atthakatha,tika and anutika. > from Teng Kee > > > > > > > Dear Erik, > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Erik > > > > > > Pannati--based on my understanding of pannatti > > > meaning "concept"-- > > > MUST be a sankhara dhamma, > > > > Yes, this is a direct disagreement. My understanding of > > pannatti is that it doesn't rise, and it doesn't fall, and > > therefore, is not sankhara (which rises, falls, and are > > conditioned.) However, because I lack any evidence in the > > theravadin sources, I don't think it is going to be fruitful > > to discuss this. Teng Kee/Mike may come up with further > > passages where we can discuss this further. > > > > > So I think we may have different understanding of > > > pannatti if you say > > > it lacks characteristics. Perhaps you can clarify > > > if I'm messing up > > > the definition of it, and what you mean by > > > lacking characteristics. > > > > What I meant is that the aramana (pannatti) of the cittas > > lack its "essence" [thanks, Sarah!], its directly > > experienceable paramatha characteristics. You cannot > > directly experience the charateristics of a car, but you can > > directly experience the characteristics of vanna (color, > > visible objects, etc). > > > > > To my understanding, SOMEHOW a pannatti has to > > > have enough of a > > > characteristic to perform the function of > > > characterizing what it's > > > referring to. That would be the "characteristic" > > > of that given > > > pannatti to my understanding. > > > > The citta cognizing pannatti has paramattha characteristics > > and functions. The only thing pannatti has is it is an > > aramana pacaya to the cittas. It doesn't have paramatha > > characteristics. This brings up the interesting subject of > > something that "isn't there" is a paccaya dhamma to > > something that "is there". > > > > I hope someone else would contribute to this thread to allow > > us to reach an amiccable conclusions. > > > > kom > > 4349 From: Erik Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Re: cognize nibbana --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > (with apologies for getting your name wrong in my > previous posts) No problem. It's only a pannatti! :) And everyone knows to whom it refers, so it's performed its function. Also, I read your suggested posts, and commenting based on that... > Whether or not concepts (pannatti) are conditioned > realities (sankhara dhammas) must as you say depend to > some extent on one's definition of the terms, but as > far as the Pali canon is concerned I think the > position is quite clear. > > This is that there is a clear distinction between > 'ultimate realities' (paramattha dhammas), which are > 'with individual essence' (sabhava), on the one hand, > and concepts (pannatti), which are 'without individual > essence' (abhava) on the other. The question of what > exactly is meant by 'with/without individual essence' > here also depends on one's definition. The way I see this is that pannatti may lack their "own" essence (so do all dhammas) but they must take on the characteristic of what they're pointing to. How could it be otherwise? A pannatti has to "mark" an arammana somehow to distinguish it from another arammana. Otherwise there'd be no way to distinguish arammana A from arammana B, no way to distinguish "red" from "blue." Even if we speak of pannatti in relation paramattha dhammas--especially in relation to paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a distinguishing characteristic and still perform the function of "pointing to" the arammana? Also, to my understanding, pannatti are sammati-sacca, meaning that they are sankhara dhammas as well. > Pannatti are entirely a creation of the mind, and > therefore have no substance whatsoever. What dhamma has substance? Even rupa lacks essence, "substance," because it's anatta & anicca. This does not make pannatti unique in this regard. Also, I am curious to hear what the Abhidhamma position is on what is NOT a creation of the mind apart from nibbana. Would paramattha dhammas even "exist" without a nama there to perceive rupa? The better-known version of this question is, if a tree falls in the forest and there's no sota-vinnana there, is there a sound at all? Other than that, thanks Jon! 4350 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Mike > >Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > I was assaulted by a man on the desert streets > > and he has stolen my money, threatening me with a > > knife and attempting sexual abuse with violence. > >In recent years both I and a close family member have >been victims of criminal violence--my sister's far >worse than my own. More than anything else is the pungent taste of violence that is so bitter. Not the fact of being robbed and threatened but the violence itself that upsets most. You feel perplexed, stunned. > >In each case my first reaction was a strong impulse to >hunt down the perpetrator and take revenge. The >though of 'scratching this itch' was a very pleasant >one, and hard to let go. Given your friendly nature, >maybe you'll be able to bypass this stage. Though it >might be temoprarily subdued by cultivation of >friendliness, compassion, gladness and equanimity, >ultimately, the only freedom from this >malice-begotten-malice is the arising of genuine >understanding toward the 'perpetrator'--as Khun Sujin >and Robert pointed out, 'no killer--no gun'. Honestly I never thought of taking revenge; I was feeling almost sorry for both of us, for me having to submit to such brutality and for him being so poisoned by hatred to resort to violent means. > >I'm very glad you've come away physically unharmed. >As Num said, do be careful. This world is ruled by >craving, malice and ignorance--any of us might be a >victim at any time. Well as I told we have to cope with the actual conditions in this very life and therefore I could not avoid what I experienced because anytime, anyplace it can happens. > >Thank you for this reminder of the actions that can >result from passion and sensuality carried to their >extremes. A very sobering lesson on the importance of >understanding the nature of the unwholesome roots. > >mike I don't see it related with passion and sensuality but with evil and violence Mike. I have a sensual and passionate nature and even when in the most exalted condition I would never act out a similar behaviour. This is not about being unrestrained but about being blinded by hatred and yet he could get a glitter of consciousness because he released me. However thanks for your kindness in being sympathetic. Love Cybele 4351 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed Dear Sarah > >Dear cybele, > >I'm also sorry to her about your very unpleasant >experience. I hadn't read the mails when I wrote to >you off-list. Thanks for your sympathy. > >We never know what will happen at any given moment or >how we will react, do we? I have a friend (also in >London as it happens) who is really peace-loving and >does lots of yoga for relaxation. She was sitting in >her car in Westminster, with the window open outside >her son's prestigious school, when 2 guys came up and >put their arms through the window to grab her bag. She >went totally beserk and started fighting them and >ended up very badly hurt.... I think she was more >shocked by her reaction than by their actions (and she >still lost her bag). In other words, it's all very >well talking about how one keeps good sila, for >example, but we never know (unless we're a sotapanna) >how we'll react given different circumstances. She >said that what drove her crazy was the thought that >they came to rob her outside her little son's school! I don't feel anger like that I feel sadness, powerlessness, vulnerability. I never thought of fighting as would be totally unreasonable due to the situation; I just felt to appeal to his heart, to show him my being without any defense and surrender to his compassion and somehow it worked out. You know how absurd, while he released me and I walked away, quickening my pace, he continued shouting : 'you don't trust anybody, go, go but don't trust anybody!!' I was startled. > >I'm so glad you were able to persuade the guy to let >you go (I had a very, very similar experience when I >was young(er!) in Israel). Take care wandering in >quiet streets on your own at night in London. At least >in Hong Kong, nowhere is quiet and personal attacks >are very, very rare. But still, who knows what vipaka >may bring? > >Lots of warm blood on this list as you can see! > >xxxSarah > Dear Sarah, well I am bit stuck in my perplexities but relieved that no actaul damage was done. But you just feel...too bad. I just need to stay quiet and calm: I just have a reaction of withdrawal perhaps trying to find a confort zone to take a rest. I feel like I need to recharge myself, I can't take it anymore...'give me a break'. :-) But I most appreciate the supportive response. A big hug Cybele 4352 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Jon >Cybele > >I, too, was very sorry to hear about you unfortunate >incident, and hope that you are managing OK now. It >must have been an awful experience. > >Jon. > I am not managing ok, but it's ok. I am 'grieving' and is natural. I will digest also this, I have such a stomach that eventually crunches everything. Thank you for your support. Cybele 4353 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Querido Leonardo Voce me faz sentir saudades da minha gente tao sofrida e tao aberta e calorosa. Muito obrigado pelos seus metta pensamentos e o seu carinho: eu agradeco de coracao. Un abraco forte Cybele >> > >Cybele, > >Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos nas diferentes línguas >faladas >nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação. > >Abraços da terrinha, > >Metta, >Leonardo > >Ps: Friends, sorry for the portuguese ... > 4354 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Cybele & Leonardo, May we have a translation please, when you use Portuguese? looking f/w to sharing, Sarah --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Querido Leonardo > > Voce me faz sentir saudades da minha gente tao > sofrida e tao aberta e > calorosa. > Muito obrigado pelos seus metta pensamentos e o seu > carinho: eu agradeco de > coracao. > > Un abraco forte > > Cybele > > >> > > > >Cybele, > > > >Que vc encontre paz e sabedoria ... Estamos todos > nas diferentes línguas > >faladas > >nesta lista, torcendo pela sua recuperação. > > > >Abraços da terrinha, > > > >Metta, > >Leonardo > > > >Ps: Friends, sorry for the portuguese ... 4355 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Howard >> >Hi, Cybele - I was wondering when my favourite peace maker would drop a line... ;-))) >================================= > Some psychologists say that depression is sometimes anger >misdirected >towards oneself. Both anger and depression hurt the one who carries the >emotion. Please don't let that dog's action have any more ill effect on you >than the event itself directly did - let there be no repercussions. If you >have to feel one or the other of anger and depression, choose anger so that >at least it is appropriately directed. But, if you possibly can, please try >to cultivate compassion, both for yourself and for the poor soul who has >sunk >so low. I don't think that either anger or depression can survive long in >the >face of compassion. Be well, and feel safe and secure. I have the sense, >that, in a certain way, whatever should befall us, we are ultimately >"safe". >May you feel the same. > >With metta, >Howard Howard I am grateful for your support and advice but see I am just grieving and is natural, otherwise would be self denial. I feel flattened, a bit numb and like recovering; I feel sore spots but I am not bleeding. But I acknowledge the wounds. I don't see the point of ignoring them but I confide that paying attention I am healing much more effectively. I feel safe and secure in the Dhamma and I am sure that this inner conviction and faith rescued me from a worse fate. Again I don't feel anger against my aggressor above all because he indeed released me and was somehow moved. I am content I could keep this attitude but I am stunned, numb. Violence is painful, it hurts, it destabilizes - I am just tired, all comes along in a period of great struggles and this is one more drop that makes it 'enough is enough' but seems is never enough. And I continue taking it and dealing with it and that's life. Then or I develop strenght or I develop strenght... ;-) I just need to take it easy, my Brazilian way of coping with emotional pressure. And be confident that I am capable to develop mental and emotional skills to understand the confusing pattern of my own life. Love and respect Cybele 4356 From: Howard Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 5:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, Erik (and Jon, and all) - In a message dated 3/26/01 7:36:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Erik writes: > The way I see this is that pannatti may lack their "own" essence (so > do all dhammas) but they must take on the characteristic of what > they're pointing to. How could it be otherwise? A pannatti has > to "mark" an arammana somehow to distinguish it from another > arammana. Otherwise there'd be no way to distinguish arammana A from > arammana B, no way to distinguish "red" from "blue." Even if we speak > of pannatti in relation paramattha dhammas--especially in relation to > paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a distinguishing > characteristic and still perform the function of "pointing to" the > arammana? Also, to my understanding, pannatti are sammati-sacca, > meaning that they are sankhara dhammas as well. > ================================= I may be mistaken, but, as I wrote in my posts on this topic, I believe that where you and I are using 'pannatti' / 'concept' to refer to a thought/idea which subsumes a number of direct experiences that share common or related features, others are using the term to refer to the intended *referent* of the concept, i.e. the *category* subsumed. As I see it, that category-referent is not only never observed, but is, in fact, not observable. It is *merely* conceptual in the sense of being the *conventional* referent of the concept/thought. The individual instances subsumed by the concept/thought, and their common features, are observable, at least if the concept is grounded, and not like the proverbial "child of a barren woman", and the thought/concept itself is a mental element of experience, but not the "category" which is the intended referent of the concept. (In some cases, even the the apparent individual instances subsumed by a grounded thought/concept are not directly observable, because they are *themselves* actually only thoughts/concepts subsuming a collection of co-occurring experiences such as 'the car presently parked in my driveway', though it *seems* that they are directly observed objects.) I believe that it is the abstract "category" that others here are referring to when they speak of 'pannatti'. The pannatti, itself, *in the sense* of the thought or concept is, indeed, conditioned by the experiences it subsumes, their common features, and the relations among them, and it thereby has characteristics. This is my take on the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4357 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Num, Unfortunetly this was not 'the most terrible experience of my life' but I am straining the same; I am just a bit sore, I will recover. For me Dhamma is life and therefore there is no distinction. And I learn from the daily, fleeting moments os awareness. As I told drop by drop they are filling up this mental container. I just do not want to paly heroic; I need 'to grieve' and I do grieve. That's all, no self deceit. I like it real. And we need rest in real life. I am giving myself time to recharge. But dear Num if there is people like you in this world life can't be so bad after all! :-) It's very encouraging feel your concern and warmth. I really appreciate. And I am grateful. See in the roads of life we have bad encounters as such nice meetings. And we go further on not refusing the first or clinging to the latter. Because we must proceed walking on the Path. The sun is still shining even when the sky is cloudy I know it but what to do...I prefer a sunny day! But this is only my wishful thinking. Reality is there and I am supposed to accept it as it is. And is this is my effort of coping mindfully. Thank you for caring about your crazy dhamma sister. A hug Cybele > >Hi again Cybele, > >It's sad to hear that you are feeling down and discourage. Give your self >some time to recover, you just have been through the most terrible >experience >in your life. >It's normal to feel disgusted, scared, doubtful, to blame >yourself or to be angry. I hope you use this experience as a great lesson >for knowing yourself and dhamma and I hope it will never happen again. One >is more than enough, I know. I like the idiom, our loss is our gain, mean >we >can see thing in different angle and perspective and we can make best out >of >everything. We can learn from our best and worst moment, as you said life >is >so real. > >Flashback and startled response usually happen for a while. Sound like you >are not that angry with the man at this point. As you probably know, >emotion >and feeling are conditional dhamma. They arise, sustain and fall away by >causes and conditions. We love ourselves as does everybody else. Again >be >careful, I think it's a very smart idea to have a company esp. when you are >in this stage of feeling and emotion. > >Tell me you learn something from it and will let go and move on. Give >yourself some time for recovery. > >I appreciate your kindness and thanks for sharing your experience and your >"life" with us. > >Hope you get well very soon and again share with us a sunny radiant >attitude. > >Num > 4358 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Erik > >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > Then I suppose I was right dear Erik, you have chosen to IGNORE ME. > >You found me out! I have to confess, I have specifically chosen to >ignore YOU. It's all about ignoring "Cybele, the dynamic meditator." >It's been hard, I admit, but there you have it. I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of compounded phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to confront REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping confrontation with your practice. Theory is conforting isn't it, we feel secure discussing in such a logical fashion. Life seems almost so coeherent... > > > It means that I am not your 'cup of coffee' anyway it seems. > > And means also that you are not so compassionate, don't you think >that you > > are being discriminative with me? > >You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad >Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient >beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give you >an idea of just who you're dealing with here. Again Erik - thinking of the Tibetan Path you have chosen and the Dalai Lama that is the embodiment of Compassion himself, it doesn't seems logical to me that you defend such paradoxal attitude. Well personally I prefer the 'freedom of non escape' but you are entitled to your own choices. But spiritual skills are not developed with erudition in my humble viewpoint but investigating our own minds and hearts. Hope you soften up towards your fellow sentient beings. Wisdom and Compassion are entwined together. Metta Cybele 4359 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samma-Vayama Mike --- mike nease wrote: > Jon, > I ran across this great discourse by chance this > morning, and it > seems to me to address what I was aiming at when I > mistakenly > referred to the 'mundane eightfold path'. > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is > of two sorts: > There is right view with fermentations [asava], > siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and > there is noble right > view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor > of the path." > > Majjhima Nikaya 117 > Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta > The Great Forty > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > This goes on to describe the other path factors in > the same way--with > asavas and (Noble) without asavas. > > "And what is the right view that is without > fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, > the faculty of > discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis > of qualities as a > factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view > in one developing > the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is > free from > fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble > path. This is the > right view that is without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of > the path." > > Am I mistaken in reading into this that there is a > Noble Eightfold > path for the Ariyapuggala and a (non-Noble) > ('five-fold') path for > the puthujjana? Certainly it is talking about the Noble Eightfold Path which, as I understand it, means the 4 path moments corresponding to the 4 stages of enlightenment. At those moments all 8 supramundane path factors arise together. There is also a mundane version of the path, at which moment 5 path factors (the 8 path factors excluding the 3 abstinences) arise. This is a moment of satipatthana. Although the factors of the mundane path are not of course at the supramundane level, they nevertheless lead in that direction. However, I do not see any specific reference to the mundane path in this sutta. The mundane version of the supramundane path factors mentioned in the sutta are something different again. They are, in layman’s terms, ordinary moments of kusala. They are moments of kusala that are not moments of satipatthana. They differ from the mundane path factors mentioned above in that they lead to rebirth and continued existence rather than in the direction of the supramundane path. That is why, in the first of the passages cited in your message above, mundane right view is described as ‘resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]’. This would not be an appropriate description for a moment of satipatthana (ie. a mundane path moment). > Further on, he says of each of the first five path > factors that > 'right view, right effort and right mindfulness run > and circle > around' it, and that 'this is one's right > mindfulness'. > > "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into > right view: This is > one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong > view & to enter & > remain in right view: This is one's right > mindfulness. Thus these > three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right > mindfulness -- > run & circle around right view. > > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into > right resolve: > This is one's right effort. One is mindful to > abandon wrong resolve & > to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's > right mindfulness. > Thus these three qualities -- right view, right > effort, & right > mindfulness -- run & circle around right resolve. > > "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into > right speech: This > is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon > wrong speech & to > enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right > mindfulness. Thus > these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & > right > mindfulness -- run & circle around right speech. > > "One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into > right action: This > is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon > wrong action & to > enter & remain in right action: This is one's right > mindfulness. Thus > these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & > right > mindfulness -- run & circle around right action. > > "One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter > into right > livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is > mindful to abandon > wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right > livelihood: This is > one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities > -- right view, > right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle > around right > livelihood. > > Interestingly, it stops here--right effort and right > mindfulness are > present only by 'running and circling around' the > first five factors > and there is no mention at all of (non-Noble) right > concentration. The absence of any mention of right concentration could be because the purpose of the sutta is to explain what are the necessary supports for the arising of supramundane right concentration (namely the other seven path factors). > This seems to stress a very specific emphasis on and > relationship > between right view, right effort and right > mindfulness that I don't > recall seeing elsewhere in the Suttanta or the > Vinaya. Yes, these 3 factors seem to be the basis for the arising of all the other factors. > Thanks in advance. > > mike I'm afraid I haven't addressed all your questions, but I hope this is useful. Thanks anyway for the opportunity to look at this rather complex sutta. It is, as you say, a great discourse. Jon 4360 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back To Observing Consciousness Observing consciousness does not work. It is worked on. Every time a conciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] happens, the observing consciousness is awakened. In ordinary language, we say observing consciousness, as though it is a subject. Actually it is an object. It is always very tricky to use the ordinary language to describe extra ordinary events. All our understanding may all be the same, at a certain advanced level. But to use ordinary language to agree that we understand the same may not be that easy. The best way two people understand one another is when they sit side by side and one understand the other with no talking. Just like when Buddha held a flower, Mahakasapa smiled. metta, des >From: Alex T >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back To Observing Consciousness >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:36:09 -0000 > >Dear friends, > > After all of our valuable discussions, please help me to >understand how the observing consciousness works. > > Thank you. > >Anumodana, >Alex Tran > > 4361 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Right view - different kinds of Betty Welcome back, and good to have you on the list again. --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Jon, > Just returned from Turkey and so am quite far behind > in catching up with the > various digests and letters from the group. But just > having read your > description of right view in digest 338, I would > like to ask you how right > view would then differ from sati and right > understanding (panna), according > to your description? While right understanding on an > initial level must be > pariyati (intellectual understanding), it does, as > Dan noted, later become a > higher level of understanding when, given the > conditions to have arisen, > satipatthana occurs, i.e., when sati, sampajjana > and panna have arisen. As I understand it, 'right view' and 'right understanding' are both translations for 'samma-ditthi', which in turn is panna cetasika. Panna cetasika arising at moments that are satipatthana (eg. at moment of samatha) is right view of the [mundane] Eightfold Path. Panna cetasika arising at other (non-satipatthana) moments may be regarded as right view, but not as right view of the Eightfold Path. This would include panna of the kind which understands about kamma and vipaka (and it should be noted that this kind of view is not exclusive to the Buddha’s dispensation). As I am sure you know, panna differs from sati in that whereas sati remembers or is mindful of the reality appearing at the present moment, panna knows or understands something about the characteristic of that reality. Just a point on my earlier message, the one to which Dan replied. That was in response to a question from Erik about similarities or differences in Right View as between the Tibetan and the Pali traditions. I of course took him to be talking about Right View of the Eightfold Path, and my post should be read in that light. Dan is quite right in pointing out that there is mundane right view outside the right view of the Eightfold Path (which also has a mundane aspect). However, I would not consider mere ‘intellectual acceptance’ of kamma/vipaka to be an example of such right view. I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult-to-grasp area. Jon > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:05:25 +0800 (CST) > > From: Jonothan Abbott > > Subject: Re: On Right View > > > In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the > factors of > > the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, it occurs with > > each moment of true awareness of reality. > > Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental > factor > > of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana. > > Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the > > characteristic of a reality experienced by citta > > (moment of consciousness) at that moment. > > > > Only at such moments of such awareness can we say > that > > there is right view. So in suttanta or abhidhamma > > terms, right view does not refer to a view that > > someone holds about the world or about dhamma > > generally. > > > > Jon > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:36:06 -0000 > > From: "Dan Dalthorp" > > Subject: Re: On Right View > > > > Jon, > > Your view of right view is very narrow compared to > what I read in the > > suttas. Mundane right view begins with > intellectual acceptance of > > kamma/vipaka. From there, it is developed into > intellectual > > understanding and acceptance of the four noble > truths. It is further > > developed and developed, and gradually the right > view becomes right > > view based on direct experience. > > > > This is indeed an interesting and important > subject. Time permitting, > > I will find some references to chew on soon. > > > > Dan 4362 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:58pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana Right on Teng Kee. metta, des >From: "teng kee ong" >Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana >Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:40:38 +0800 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Kom Tukovinit" >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:29:46 -0800 >>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] cognize nibbana > > > > Dear Erik, > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Erik > > > > > > A question that's bothered me some. How does the > > > Abhidhamma account > > > for the fact a sankhara dhamma, citta, can > > > "cognize" nibbana? > > > > > > Erik > > > > > > > I don't know of the explicit process of how Citta (sankhara) > > cognizes Nibanna (asankhara). However, I note that Citta > > also cognizes pannatti, which has no characteristics at all, > > which doesn't rise and which doesn't fall, and which has no > > conditions (since it doesn't rise or fall). > > > > kom > > Dear Kom, >I think you are wrong to say pannatti dosen't rise and fall and have no >conditions.This is the view by Modern Myanmar monk who think that there are >two uncondition (another is niibana)but this is not the view of our >theravada text book.If the pannatti is uncondition ,there will not be a >kind of pannatti name asankhata pannatti.Pannatti is only half uncondition >,we can use this word.See Vibhanga com or just look at last few pages of >Visuddhimagga by nyanamoli in nirodha samapatti part. >Our lokiya citta couldn't percieve the nibbana until we are a arahant. >from Teng Kee > 4363 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:57pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Teng Kee, Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined book). Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts mentioned: The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 . 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign. 3...6 skipped here. (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf) > -----Original Message----- > From: teng kee ong > > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is > uncondition.We have two kinds of 6 kinds...according to the book (and maybe Vissudhimagga?) > pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti > are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana > pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata I am sorry for being a bit slow here, but would you give definitions for nipphana and parinipphana? I can't find the definitions anywhere on the internet. (I can guess what nipphana is as there is such thing as "nipphana rupa", but I can't guess at parinipphana). kom 4364 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 0:14am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Erik, Sorry to butt in here a little bit. I only have a few short comments. > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik > > --- Jonothan Abbott > > This is that there is a clear distinction between > > 'ultimate realities' (paramattha dhammas), which are > > 'with individual essence' (sabhava), on the one hand, > > and concepts (pannatti), which are 'without individual > > essence' (abhava) on the other. The question of what > > exactly is meant by 'with/without individual essence' > > here also depends on one's definition. > > The way I see this is that pannatti may lack > their "own" essence (so > do all dhammas) but they must take on the By Jon's (and Sarah's) definition of essence (sabhava), then paramatha dhammas have essence. If you don't like the definition, perhaps we could skip the use of the word and just use "sabhava" altogether. Otherwise, around we go! (Sarah has answered this related question in a past post.) > Also, I am curious to hear what the Abhidhamma > position is on what is > NOT a creation of the mind apart from nibbana. > Would paramattha > dhammas even "exist" without a nama there to > perceive rupa? The > better-known version of this question is, if a > tree falls in the > forest and there's no sota-vinnana there, is > there a sound at all? The position that I hold (not Abhidhamma) is that sound exists even when there is no nama rising to cognize it. The sound simply is not an aramana paccaya to any rising nama. Of course, as Howard has pointed out, how do you absolutely prove that this is true (besides using logical reasoning or believing in Buddha's teachings)? This is also a difference (whether paramatha dhammas that are not cognized exist or not) between Howards and I. kom 4365 From: Num Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 7:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Cybele, Hope you have a peaceful and restful rest then. Wish you always be brave and cheerful in studying dhamma. May the force always be with you :) Num 4366 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Num You are my strenght! :-) Thank you for being close. And count on me - I am a brave heart and yes a cheerful student. The force is Dhamma and as long as I confide in it, the force will be with me. Cybele >From: Num >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - >Erik/Herman >Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:17:41 EST > >Cybele, > > >Hope you have a peaceful and restful rest then. > >Wish you always be brave and cheerful in studying dhamma. > > >May the force always be with you :) > > >Num > 4367 From: Howard Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, Kom - In a message dated 3/26/01 11:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kom writes: > This is also a difference > (whether paramatha dhammas that are not cognized exist or > not) between Howards and I. > =============================== I think I should clarify my position a bit. The position that "To exist is to be observed" is an idealist position that goes beyond mine. Mine is a kind of phenomenalist position that is closer to "To exist is to be observable" in the sense that if certain experiences are made to occur, then certain other experiences will also occur. So, when I say "The sky is blue", for example, what I mean is something along the following lines (still with heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should someone with functionally unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will see the color blue"; i.e., Should this occur, then that will occur; When this arises, then that arises (but all in experiential terms rather than existential terms). I haven't put this very well. i hope you get my drift. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4368 From: Erik Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:59am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of compounded > phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to confront > REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping confrontation with > your practice. I dare say you are making a very presumptuous statement here in attempting to ascertain another's practice. How can you possibly know what goes on in another's mind? Think on this one long and hard and ask yourself if it's reasonable to make assumptions about another's mentality based on no more than a few splotches of light and dark on a computer screen. Also, let me be very clear on one point. I do not discuss meditation experiences with others unless they happen to be my teachers, and it is in the context of explaining what's going on in the interest of getting corrective instruction. There is heart- advice directly against doing so by my lineage's founder, Je Tsongkhapa, who said that "it is wise to keep one's realizations hidden as if guarding precious treasures." > Theory is conforting isn't it, we feel secure discussing in such a logical > fashion. Life seems almost so coeherent... I don't deal with theory by itself, and never have. I deal with the data of experience, and use theory to make sense of it, to put it into proper context, to communicate that experience. What you suggest here is a typical and common misrepresentation/misunderestanding of the Dharma, that it is ALL experiential, that theory is unnecessary. Not true, even a little bit. The fact is we ALL operate through the medium of symbols, and understanding the symbols that represent realities is very important for the sake of benefitting sentient beings. The only time there is no operating through the medium of symbols is during the direct perception of nibbana. Otherwise, ALL experience is mediated by symbols. In other words, it's great to have experiences, but it isn't helpful if your aim is to make that experience work for your own practice, OR communicate that experience in such a way others have a hope of awakening (the only reason to try communicating this sort of thing). There are 108,000 ways to say the same thing about the Dharma, but not each of these "true" descriptions is necessarily the most beneficial. As I see it, it's best to understand the important categories of the Dharma as presented by the Buddha if one has a wish to communicate its essence in a way that others can use that knowledge to get free themselves. To lack this wish to know the Dharma thoroughly, if your aim is to communicate its meaning, would seem to be truly uncompassionate, as if you don't care enough about others to take the time to really learn the ins & outs of how things have been presented historically and been proven to work. So rather than create something half-baked, I think it's exceedingly important to gain a real understanding of why the Buddha chose to communicate reality the way he did. In my opinion (what do I say that isn't?) once this is properly understood, then it's possible to let go of conventionalities, in the same way Picasso trained in art theory and mastered the essentials before creating his own style. To break the rules, you have to know them in the first place. > >You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad > >Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient > >beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give you > >an idea of just who you're dealing with here. > > > Again Erik - thinking of the Tibetan Path you have chosen and the Dalai Lama > that is the embodiment of Compassion himself, it doesn't seems logical to me > that you defend such paradoxal attitude. Whoa! Jumping to conclusions about another's mentality again! Anyway, speaking of the Dalai Lama, when asked how to awaken, the Dalai Lama's emphatic in saying "study! study! study!" What's your reaction to that, my theory-disdaining friend? In fact, the Dalai Lama is stating a very Geluk-pa view. Given I'm in this lineage, it makes sense for me to heed that sort of advice, no? So who are you to judge what's proven to work, in other words? (see, I can ask the tough questions too, Cybele :) ). > Well personally I prefer the 'freedom of non escape' but you are entitled to > your own choices. If you want to talk Pema Choedron style ("The Wisdom of No Escape"), we can do that till the cows come home offline, but not here. I try to keep the Tibetan stuff to a bare minimum here because it isn't universally accepted. > But spiritual skills are not developed with erudition in my humble viewpoint > but investigating our own minds and hearts. How does one even go about investigating the mind and heart without a proper grounding in theory? Let's talk direct experience here for a minute. I began in Zen and made practically no progress in five years. Do you know why? I had NO helpful theory to work with. I had no understanding of things like anatta because the Zen way is very loosey-goosey about these definitions. Koans may work for some people but certainly not for me. Once I was properly trained in my lineage's theory, POW, everything came together in a few months. Months, Cybele, not years. The study of comparative systems and ANALYTICAL MEDITATION BASED ON THEORY like this did more for me, once combined with the standard samatha/vipassana meditation, than any other practice I can name. In other words, don't knock it if you haven't tried it, or if you don't understand how it works. I assure you it works very well for people of a certain mentality. It may not work for you, but you're not practicing in that tradition either, so why worry about someone else's practice? Why not worry about your own awakening instead? That would seem a far more fruitful use of your best efforts. > Hope you soften up towards your fellow sentient beings. > Wisdom and Compassion are entwined together. Hope you stop making assumptions about others' mentalities. Because, Cybele, you took something said in a true spirit of humor and irony the wrong way if you took that in the least bit seriously. I thought it would be very hard to take the "Iced Coffee" thing in all earnestness. I WAS JOKIN' WITH YA, IN OTHER WORDS, though given your recent bad experience I can see how you might not be feeling as light- hearted as you might otherwise, and missed it. On that note, GLAD you made it okay, and I have to say, I had no end of trouble when I lived in London. It's a very dangerous city, no matter where you live or hang out. I had several near-muggings and witnessed some pretty nasty violence when I was there, even in "nice" neighborhoods--like nothing I've ever seen in all the years I've lived in NYC. 4369 From: Erik Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:28am Subject: Re: Mana :pride and esteem --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Num & Erik, > > I particularly appreciated this post below, Num, with > the account of Sariputta. Several years ago with Khun > Sujin in India, I remember there was a lot of > discussion about the value of considering oneself as a > dustrag. There's a very long way to go (for me)! There is actually another side to mana, and that's false modesty. So I think the dustrag analogy is also mana if taken the wrong way, though this form is subtler and certainly not as offensive to others! In all cases mana, at root, is based on comparing self & other, no matter how innocuous that comparison may appear. Here's are some other categories of mana I'm familiar with: Pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one is superior to lower persons Excessive pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one is superior to equal persons Pride beyond pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one is greatly superior even to persons who are superior to others Pride of thinking I--a puffing up of the mind, observing the appropriated aggregates of mind and body and thinking, 'I' Pride of conceit--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one has attained what has not been attained, such as clairvoyance or meditative stabilization Pride of slight inferiority--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one is just a little lower than others who are actually greatly superior Wrongful pride--a puffing up the mind, thinking that one has attained auspicious qualities when one has actually deviated from the path, such as claiming high attainments when one has actually been carried away by a spirit. On that note, I find it interesting that the Polynesian languages have the word "Mana" (pride, power) as well, and it's wide enough to connote the meaning of the Pali term. 4370 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Amara >Dear Cybele, > >It is indeed wonderful that you think of the dhamma in such a >situation, in fact what better time to study realities as they arise, >although for us it must be cause for much dosa, as the strong memory >arises from conditions now. I don't 'think' Dhamma, Amara I simply feel it. And for me the context to investigate Dhamma is real life, here and now whatever comes - aversion, craving or delusion, sorrow, joy, mental clarity, perplexities. >You in your optimistic attitude and warm >nature would probably be more used to lobha than dosa but you might >see that what the Buddha taught; that lobha is the cause of dosa, is >very true too. I am not optimistic Amara - for me warmth is the most realistic attitude I can engender to cope with life demands and suffering. I simply cannot understand life without compassion and loving kindness. >One is attached to the happy feeling that is followed >by the unpleasant whenever the desired feeling subsides, or happiness >does not happen, or when anything one dislikes happens. Yet all are >bound to change, that is part of the universal tilakkhana, exempting >nibbana. Nibbana, according to KS, is the ultimate peace since it >does not change, it does not arise nor fall away, being permanent. >Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be very subtle, as in >each time the body sense is in contact with something that is not >causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can only be lobha or >dosa as vedana, and no upekkha. Or it can be very strong aversion to >something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest form, a thundering >anger. All day the dosa in the subtle forms accompany us, ready to >blaze at the right conditions, and it is better to know it as such, a >bad accumulation no one is without except the anagami upwards. I feel sad, numb and flattened - sadness is aversion? I am not rejecting or fighting out my sadness. I am just accepting the way it is and being patient, taking it easy. All wounds need time to heal. > >Meanwhile everything changes, the horrible experience you had is in >fact memory at this time, real as it may seem even now. As KS said, >even the greatest physical pain could not last 24 hrs a day, since all >the other present arammana arise through other dvara, especially the >bhavanga. Even when there is physical pain arising, it can't last all >of an entire minute, since one can still see, hear, think etc, all >through. Which is why a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka was able to study the >pain as a tiger ate him from the foot up; and attain arahantship >before he died. My point is that whatever dosa or dukkha dukkha >vedana one has, the Buddha taught us that the mind is also very >important in adding or attenuating the dosa arising from it. As KS >said, the initial pain is unavoidable kamma, but the worrying and >trouble is our own accumulations at work. I quote from 'Birth, Age, >Illness and Death' in the advanced section of >, I don't feel numb and sad all the time but is the most imponent feeling right now. I am not worrying or troubling myself unnecessarily but just accepting my state of mind as it is, acnowledging that I need to grieve, to experience all this emotions and do not reject them to play heroic mental equilibrium. > >While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could >not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of >the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would >be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the first >arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow >that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No matter >how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since >to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites. If there >were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. Personally I never worry that much because of physical pain, I am quite strong enduring it and I never take anaesthesia when I go to the dentist for example. I can cope. Physical pain doesn't scares me. But mental suffering is the issue. I was not concerned about my life in that moment but about my mental safety, my mental balance surviving it. As now I don't have bruises or bodily pain but I am 'sore inside'. We cannot be free from mental suffering as well. What about mental illness then? I would not detach the body and the mind like that, they are entwined in one another and influence one another. > >To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly >see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When >there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and >trouble to it. To start with it Amara, I don't see attempt of rape as 'bodily dukkha'; I would straight away put it into psychological devastation if you allow me. Otherwise we are missing totally the point - the aggression, the violence is not against your body is a mental threat in my viewpoint - cause mental suffering more than anything else. >To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought >that does not help in any way. When there is illness we should take >care of it without wasting time worrying about it. I am not ill, I am shocked. I have a wonderful past accumulation about physical health, very rarely I get sick and I don't fuss anyway about it; for me indeed is pointless. I am not anxious or apprehensive by nature, otherwise I couldn't live as I live as bhante would say the 'the sky as roof and the earth as pavement'. And I can lead this life also because I am physically strong. > >Of course when there are conditions anything can arise, but the Buddha >teaches us to do the best we can in any given situation and be 'brave >and cheerful' in the dhamma, and keep studying the present moment >which can bring us wisdom in the most horrible situations. Well Amara I do my best, perhaps is not that much but is what I am capable to do. Life is the real dhamma teacher and I am used to pay attention. >With our >accumulations it might sound just this side of madness, but you see >many situations in the Tipitaka of this happening, therefore it must >be possible and worth studying and proving even in real life >situations. One thing that is true is that it can't last 24 hrs a >day, even if it is our accumulation to think of it over and over, but >in fact it is past, dear Cybele, now just a memory, another thought. yes Amara but it's also true that we cannot deal with overwhelming sensations just convincing ourselves that they are just a memory. I think pain and most of all mental pain is very difficult to uproot. I am not just recollecting and worrying about what is over but trying to accept the very fact of the inflicted violence. Trauma and shock are realities to experience and deal with. I just don't deny my sensations, thoughts and emotions. >Luckily it is now over, the tiger didn't really get you, don't let him >win now!!! As Num said, it is much better to be cautious and not let >it have the conditions to happen again, do be careful and it is wiser >to be accompanied in certain neighborhoods, and not give akusala >vipaka much condition to arise. When things happen after all the >precautions have been taken we can really see that it was meant to be, >but most of the time we should do our best not to condone to the wrong >conditions as far as one can without worrying about it too much. I think that what it was meant to be is that Dhamma protected me. how many times have you heard of a delinquent that changes mind and releases 'the victim'? I will never be overcautious as my nature is adventurous but sure I am watching out after this experience. You can bet, I am not to be imprudent again! I don't have a suspicious nature but better develop a bit of wariness just in case. :-)) > >We must keep our lives in order to study the dhamma, as I once said to >some friends, I'm not so afraid of dying or even rebirth, it is the >learning process that is so daunting!!! Especially since none can >guarantee that we should even hear the dhamma in our next lifetimes. >So this is the lifetime we can count on to accumulate as much as we >can learn, of this supreme treasure we have found, and the only one we >can take with us to wherever we are going next. The realities that >appear to be studied might not appeal to your lobha, but might give >you knowledge of other strong tendencies, (which might or might not >arise again from conditions in the future), arising in alternation >with present arammana, through the eyes, ears, etc., even as you read >this. Studying it would not only keep akusala thoughts and memories >from arising at that citta moment, but also give you that much more >knowledge of realities as they really are. Nothing, even the most >unpleasant, really last; but as Num said, give yourself time to let go >and become your sunny self again, possibly with even more wisdom of >things as they really are. > >May the Buddha's 'bravery and cheerfulness' arise in you, > >Amara Thank you Amara, I never doubted that pain is a harsh but good teacher but sometimes he really 'gets on my nerves', such awful, rude manners, my goodness!! ;-))) Let's say that now I am 'a pale winter sun' but my tropical bright sun will shine again I confide. Thank you for the support and the good wishes. Love and respect Cybele 4371 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Erik At last I succeeded in having an exchange of viewpoints with you! I wrote: > > Hope you soften up towards your fellow sentient beings. > > Wisdom and Compassion are entwined together. > You replied: >Hope you stop making assumptions about others' mentalities. Because, >Cybele, you took something said in a true spirit of humor and irony >the wrong way if you took that in the least bit seriously. I thought >it would be very hard to take the "Iced Coffee" thing in all >earnestness. I WAS JOKIN' WITH YA, IN OTHER WORDS, though given your >recent bad experience I can see how you might not be feeling as light- >hearted as you might otherwise, and missed it. Dear Erik as you can notice a bit a provocation has showed your practice as I was inviting you to discuss it - in real terms and not basing it only on intellectualization. This is real life. I was simply asking you to explore this kind of interaction. Not to judge you or 'measure' your skillfulness but only to actually SHARE authentic Dhamma with you in a prompt, alive interaction. First thing I am not making assumptions about 'others mentalities', it happens that I figured out about yours for your reticence, isolated episode. Clumsly or wrongly it happened with you. Period. Therefore you are 'making assumptions' as well about my interaction with people here and elsewhere. And as an intelligent guy you can easily deduce and indeed I admitted plainly is most evident that I am not exactly in my lighter mood and not so prone to 'joke' but anyway I considered the humour of your remark just I felt to comment on it as anyway you were not willing to discuss Dhamma with me and was not 'very compassionate' of you as also I ironically stung you in my previous mail. You are not taking it that cool as well. > >On that note, GLAD you made it okay, and I have to say, I had no end >of trouble when I lived in London. It's a very dangerous city, no >matter where you live or hang out. I had several near-muggings and >witnessed some pretty nasty violence when I was there, even in "nice" >neighborhoods--like nothing I've ever seen in all the years I've >lived in NYC. Indeed many Londoners or people living here 'reassured me' about it. That there is no way of being careful or prudent, this facts happens in day light, in elegant quarters and with witnesses around. But what shocked me most it was the recognotion of such blatant violence. This is the most unconfirtable fact to accept and cope as anyway I left unharmed. And I have been many times in London before and is the first incident I had. However knowing that is common fact makes me feel less of a fool after all and not blaming myself. thanks. Thank you for your response anyway I will continue replying in another mail, you are prolific you know - I prefer focusing on the various issues separately. Cybele 4372 From: Alex T Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:21am Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness Dear Des and friends, Thank you for your help. You're very compassionate. With Metta and much appreciation, Alex --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > Observing consciousness does not work. > It is worked on. > Every time a conciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] happens, the observing > consciousness is awakened. > In ordinary language, we say observing consciousness, as though it is a > subject. Actually it is an object. > It is always very tricky to use the ordinary language to describe extra > ordinary events. > All our understanding may all be the same, at a certain advanced level. > But to use ordinary language to agree that we understand the same may not be > that easy. > The best way two people understand one another is when they sit side by side > and one understand the other with no talking. > Just like when Buddha held a flower, Mahakasapa smiled. > > metta, > des 4373 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Erik > > Theory is conforting isn't it, we feel secure discussing in such a >logical > > fashion. Life seems almost so coeherent... > >I don't deal with theory by itself, and never have. I deal with the >data of experience, and use theory to make sense of it, to put it >into proper context, to communicate that experience. What you suggest >here is a typical and common misrepresentation/misunderestanding of >the Dharma, that it is ALL experiential, that theory is unnecessary. >Not true, even a little bit. Again you are 'assuming' something that I never affirmed. To clarify your point no need to miscostrue mine. Let's dont misunderstand each other because we have divergences and consent hostility to blind our analysis of the real issue. I would be not here Erik if I were for this kind of individual approach. I did not suggest anything of that kind, you are builting up further the foundations I laid and is not my arquiteture. What is the point of studying Dhamma and accepting it as a path if you don't respect or value the teachings? But I don't think that experience 'misrepresent' Dhamma, I think that disclose our real depth of knowledge that curiously never matches our intellectual arrogance. What I tried to reason with you is that the actual LOGIC of Dhamma is in the present moment, in this dynamic meditation we are engaged in right now. I am not rejecting 'theory', but the proper context of the teachings is here and now, life and practice and I don't mean only about formal meditation. See Erik the point is so CLEAR; we can talk so neatly about anatta but do you reckon that right now we are CLINGING TO OUR SENSE OF SELF like hell? How can you perceive it while you are doing eloquent discurses? No way, now I am listening to my mind and investigating it and I am considering the teachings as you 'to make sense of it' but I am basing my knowledge in this very moment not intellectual abstractions. > >The fact is we ALL operate through the medium of symbols, and >understanding the symbols that represent realities is very important >for the sake of benefitting sentient beings. The only time there is >no operating through the medium of symbols is during the direct >perception of nibbana. Otherwise, ALL experience is mediated by >symbols. Well indeed I am explicating myself with words but words carry pathos with them Erik, they have mental content that goes far beyond what is being said and it's there that we have to concentrate most for me. disclosure of the real significance of it. Intellect can be so delusive Erik as passions. And words are misconceptions the very moment you think them as I was explaining Sarah. How possibly could I communicate 'awareness', is already gone the insight while I am elaborating it but somehow 'the real thing is powerful and digs a pattern in your mind more and more creating that right factors for right understanding to be consolidated. It's the insight that decode the real meaning not our discursive mind. > >In other words, it's great to have experiences, but it isn't helpful >if your aim is to make that experience work for your own practice, OR >communicate that experience in such a way others have a hope of >awakening (the only reason to try communicating this sort of thing). >There are 108,000 ways to say the same thing about the Dharma, but >not each of these "true" descriptions is necessarily the most >beneficial. I simply invited you to try and explore another approach to interact with me. But Erik the most beneficial way is not my approach or your approach: is ONLY the present moment and the insight we manage to get on it. The rest is our wishful thinking, expectations but not reality. Dhamma is about reality, theory is only a tool for us to help in the purpose. I am not that proud and narrowminded to assume that my way is the way and I never try deliberately to adjust the practice to be palatable to my tastes BUT WE ALL DO IT Erik all the time. We call it past accumulations, conditionings, mental/emotional habits - how could I deny it, how can we deceive ourselves that we are not 'manipulating' it for our spiritual comfort? Come on let's get real. Sure we are and that's all the point of investigating our minds, to desentangle it from delusion. Cybele 4374 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik OK folks, let's sip some iced coffee and plop some ice-cream into it! If anyone is cold, there is always hot chocolate and nice ways to enjoy that! I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. On one hand there is great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing of deep Dhamma but on the other hand, where is the practical application? There is something of a kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. Something seems to be missing. Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study". But how about a bit more practice like there was only 5 minutes or less left for each of us to be alive? Something is not right here. There is a lot of clinging and grasping I see in the writing. Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply this Dhamma and not just relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others (including non-sentient beings) then what is the point? As we share the Dhamma here, I also observe this level of tension here that seems to plague the whole planet. Shouldn't we know better and DO better? Would it be asking too much to not just be firm but also slow things down a bit and practice being more gentle? If I am off the beam here, out of line, or mistaken, then I ask for forgiveness. May this find everyone in the community with growing inner peace. May this find all of you well. May all of you be truly well. May all of you be free from suffering. May all of you know happiness and the cause of happiness. With Great Metta, Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Buddhadharma International Foundation http://www.buddhadharma.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 11:29 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik > --- "cybele chiodi" > wrote: > > > I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of > compounded > > phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to > confront > > REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping > confrontation with > > your practice. > > I dare say you are making a very presumptuous statement here in > attempting to ascertain another's practice. How can you possibly know > what goes on in another's mind? 4375 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Erik > >As I see it, it's best to understand the important categories of the >Dharma as presented by the Buddha if one has a wish to communicate >its essence in a way that others can use that knowledge to get free >themselves. To lack this wish to know the Dharma thoroughly, if your >aim is to communicate its meaning, would seem to be truly >uncompassionate, as if you don't care enough about others to take the >time to really learn the ins & outs of how things have been presented >historically and been proven to work. Dear Erik I care a lot about people and I don't lack the wish to know the Dhamma throughly. What do you think I am doing here, showing off my thoughts and emotions to make a fool of myself? We are all fools anyway Erik as we are not enlightened. I am sharing my understanding and developing right conditions for further knowledge. For me Dhamma is real life and my 'wisdom and my compassion' are not in my knowledge of the texts but in what I can sort out in my insights and therefore 'communicate' with my actions. And if you don't mind I don't believe that anybody gets free from suffering learning the categories of the Dhamma but practicing formal as dynamic meditation. I suppose this is not my way but the Budhha's way as far as I know and has been proven to work indeed. And there is something called spiritual independence and there is no text that can 'help' to master your mind or tame your emotions but only awareness of this very moment, now. Only true investigation or actual practice can achieve it, the text is a mean not the goal, we cannot petrify our minds there. Dhamma for me is alive and is there with me, inside me even when I make nasty encounters. > >So rather than create something half-baked, I think it's exceedingly >important to gain a real understanding of why the Buddha chose to >communicate reality the way he did. In my opinion (what do I say that >isn't?) once this is properly understood, then it's possible to let >go of conventionalities, in the same way Picasso trained in art >theory and mastered the essentials before creating his own style. To >break the rules, you have to know them in the first place. Picasso painted while he was learning art. He was totally unruly and I believe Dhamma is creative as well. You speak like we could KNOW Dhamma through the texts. For me we can KNOW Dhamma only thropugh mindfulness. The only rule as far as I understand is no control and being aware of this present moment and pick up right understanding when it arises. As I wrote in another mail is a lifelong meditation. > > > >You are right again. My reputation's in tatters. I am a Big Bad > > >Meanie, totally lacking in any feeling toward my fellow sentient > > >beings. Cold as ice. I even drink Iced Coffee, which should give >you > > >an idea of just who you're dealing with here. > > > > > > Again Erik - thinking of the Tibetan Path you have chosen and the >Dalai Lama > > that is the embodiment of Compassion himself, it doesn't seems >logical to me > > that you defend such paradoxal attitude. > >Whoa! Jumping to conclusions about another's mentality again! Anyway, >speaking of the Dalai Lama, when asked how to awaken, the Dalai >Lama's emphatic in saying "study! study! study!" What's your reaction >to that, my theory-disdaining friend? In fact, the Dalai Lama is >stating a very Geluk-pa view. Given I'm in this lineage, it makes >sense for me to heed that sort of advice, no? So who are you to judge >what's proven to work, in other words? (see, I can ask the tough >questions too, Cybele :) ). Erik I am always jumping as you do as well. You are so DRIVEN by our SELVES that you just cannot refrain from it and we miscostrue all the time. Is the famous monkey/jumping mind! ;-) Also you took me far too serious when I was just stinging you to react. There was no scheme, I am just like this 'probing'. I am not judging you; I was commenting on your remarks. This is an exchange Erik I am not trying to submit you or to manipulate your mind. And you can ask me all the tough questions you wish, I am not intimidated or offended. I am from very frank and honest interactions. No formalities with me. You can get to the point and I am not avoiding it. I am not afraid 'to lose face'. I am competing with you or anybody, I was interested in your experience of all this theory and now I have got it. So glad. > > > Well personally I prefer the 'freedom of non escape' but you are >entitled to > > your own choices. > >If you want to talk Pema Choedron style ("The Wisdom of No Escape"), >we can do that till the cows come home offline, but not here. I try >to keep the Tibetan stuff to a bare minimum here because it isn't >universally accepted. I feel quite attuned with Pema Chodron and even if personally I am not interested in the Tibetan Path it doesn't precludes me appreciation of illuminating books. I was not alluding to her deliberately; I have always this jergon to illustrate the pertinence of non denial - the freedom of non escape. You jumped beyond - see we do it all the time Erik, how could be different, we are not referring to the present moment but we are picking up from our backgrounds yet we can realize it and getting this insights more and more we are weakening our conditionings and purifying our minds. This is Dhamma for me, reckoning it and accepting it. > > > But spiritual skills are not developed with erudition in my humble >viewpoint > > but investigating our own minds and hearts. > >How does one even go about investigating the mind and heart without a >proper grounding in theory? Let's talk direct experience here for a >minute. I began in Zen and made practically no progress in five >years. Do you know why? I had NO helpful theory to work with. I had >no understanding of things like anatta because the Zen way is very >loosey-goosey about these definitions. Koans may work for some people >but certainly not for me. Well I practiced Zen as well and even if that discipline is forceful for my temperament worked wonders on my nature but I went further on when I felt that I was getting stuck. I was not on Rinzai but Soto anyway, that's is so very much alike Vipassana in my opinion. Sure it all depends on our characteristics and past accumulations chosing one path or another and not necessarily it was lacking on anatta foundations but simply perhaps it was not the right moment for that understanding to arise. And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of factors for it. Good for you that you did not kept being stubborn on Zen when you had other alternatives for seeking. > >Once I was properly trained in my lineage's theory, POW, everything >came together in a few months. Months, Cybele, not years. The study >of comparative systems and ANALYTICAL MEDITATION BASED ON THEORY like >this did more for me, once combined with the standard >samatha/vipassana meditation, than any other practice I can name. Excellent Erik, you found the proper path for you, congratulations. I never thought that truth can be revealed in an unique shape or teaching or whatever, I have a very ecletic mind and my heart is very open. I do not discriminate your way and is not necessary to cling to anything anyway, it depends all on awareness and right conditions, who knows tomorrow could be my way as it could never be. Nevertheless I am not SO SURE about anything because my mind is deluding me all the time. And I keep investigating and listening to my heart as well. How can we be so assertive and secure in a world that is continuously evolving, changing, vanishing, rebuking our 'beliefs' and destroying our values'. We are always grasping Erik, trying to prove ourselves a point to feel stability. For me, I repeat for me, lots of theory leads to clinging in misconceptions of reality as well as powerful emotions. We are trying not to understand but to CONTROL reality. We are not in the PRESENT MOMENT but lost in thoughts. There is no real insight in the phenomena. Don't take it as insinuation that you are deluded, how could I possibly know? I only invited you to share your viewpoint and discuss it with me. To investigate together in a different language than intellect but talking about real experience. See you were capable to do it as well after your initial reticence. No need to AGREE or DISAGREE, just to share and clarify Erik. I am not 'converting' you to my religion so to speak, I am just discussing issues together with another practitioner. No hidden intentions, no hostility against you personally, no mental twistings to prove you wrong and me smart. This is all bullshit, I am not studying or practicing to prove anything but only to understand Erik. >In >other words, don't knock it if you haven't tried it, or if you don't >understand how it works. I assure you it works very well for people >of a certain mentality. It may not work for you, but you're not >practicing in that tradition either, so why worry about someone >else's practice? Why not worry about your own awakening instead? That >would seem a far more fruitful use of your best efforts. I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the least was trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get you to share about your practice and not only discuss theory. You are embroidering on the material of my very plain intentions Erik, I am not a manipulative person. And I am not trying to lead you here or there, this are just fears and aversions arising. Indeed I worry about my 'awakening' as I care about your insights otherwise what is the point of discussing in a list? I call it sharing and for me is a fruitful effort. Metta Cybele 4376 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed Carl's Garden Carl was a quiet man. He didn't talk much. He would always greet you with a big smile and a firm handshake. Even after living in our neighborhood for over 50 years, no one could really say they knew him very well. Before his retirement, he took the bus to work each morning. The lone sight of him walking down the street often worried us. He had a slight limp from a bullet wound received in WWII. Watching him, we worried that although he had survived WWII, he may not make it through our changing uptown neighborhood with its ever- increasing random violence, gangs, and drug activity. When he saw the flyer at our local church asking for volunteers for caring for the gardens behind the minister's residence, he responded in his characteristically un-assuming manner. Without fanfare, he just signed up. He was well into his 87th year when the very thing we had always feared finally happened. He was just finishing his watering for the day when three gang members approached him. Ignoring their attempt to intimidate him, he simply asked, "Would you like a drink from the hose?" The tallest and toughest-looking of the three said, "Yeah, sure", with a malevolent little smile. As Carl offered the hose to him, the other two grabbed Carl's arm, throwing him down. As the hose snaked crazily over the ground, dousing everything in its way, Carl's assailants stole his retirement watch and his wallet, and then fled. Carl tried to get himself up, but he had been thrown down on his bad leg. He lay there trying to gather himself as the minister came running to help him. Although the minister had witnessed the attack from his window, he couldn't get there fast enough to stop it. "Carl, are you okay? Are you hurt?" the minister kept asking as he helped Carl to his feet. Carl just passed a hand over his brow and sighed, shaking his head. "Just some punk kids. I hope they'll wise-up someday." His wet clothes clung to his slight frame as he bent to pick up the hose. He adjusted the nozzle again and started to water. Confused and a little concerned, the minister asked, "Carl, what are you doing?" "I've got to finish my watering. It's been very dry lately", came the calm reply. Satisfying himself that Carl really was all right, the minister could only marvel. Carl was a man from a different time and place. A few weeks later the three returned. Just as before their threat was unchallenged. Carl again offered them a drink form his hose. This time they didn't rob him. They wrenched the hose from his hand and drenched him head to foot in the icy water. When they had finished their humiliation of him, they sauntered off down the street, throwing catcalls and curses, falling over one another laughing at the hilarity of what they had just done. Carl just watched them. Then he turned toward the warmth giving sun, picked up his hose, and went on with his watering. The summer was quickly fading into fall. Carl was doing some tilling when he was startled by the sudden approach of someone behind him. He stumbled and fell into some evergreen branches. As he struggled to regain his footing, he turned to see the tall leader of his summer tormentors reaching down for him. He braced himself for the expected attack. "Don't worry old man, I'm not gonna hurt you this time." The young man spoke softly, still offering the tattooed and scarred hand to Carl. As he helped Carl get up, the man pulled a crumpled bag from his pocket and handed it to Carl. "What's this?" Carl asked. "It's your stuff," the man explained. "It's your stuff back. Even the money in your wallet." "I don't understand," Carl said. "Why would you help me now?" The man shifted his feet, seeming embarrassed and ill at ease. "I learned something from you", he said. "I ran with that gang and hurt people like you. We picked you because you were old and we knew we could do it. But every time we came and did something to you, instead of yelling and fighting back, you tried to give us a drink. You didn't hate us for hating you. You kept showing love against our hate." He stopped for a moment. "I couldn't sleep after we stole your stuff, so here it is back." He paused for another awkward moment, not knowing what more there was to say."That bag's my way of saying thanks for straightening me out, I guess." And with that, he walked off down the street. Carl looked down at the sack in his hands and gingerly opened it. He took out his retirement watch and put it back on his wrist. Opening his wallet, he checked for his wedding photo. He gazed for a moment at the young bride that still smiled back at him from all those years ago. He died one cold day after Christmas that winter. Many people attended his funeral in spite of the weather. In particular the minister noticed a tall young man that he didn't know sitting quietly in a distant corner of the church. The minister spoke of Carl's garden as a lesson in life. In a voice made thick with unshed tears, he said, "Do your best and make your garden as beautiful as you can. We will never forget Carl and his garden." The following spring another flyer went up. It read: "Person needed to care for Carl's garden." The flyer went unnoticed by the busy parishioners until one day when a knock was heard at the minister's office door. Opening the door, the minister saw a pair of scarred and tattooed hands holding the flyer. "I believe this is my job, if you'll have me," the young man said. The minister recognized him as the same young man who had returned the stolen watch and wallet to Carl. He knew that Carl's kindness had turned this man's life around. As the minister handed him the keys to the garden shed, he said, "Yes, go take care of Carl's garden and honor him." The man went to work and, over the next several years, he tended the flowers and vegetables just as Carl had done. In that time, he went to college, got married and became a prominent member of the community. But he never forgot his promise to Carl's memory and kept the garden as beautiful as he thought Carl would have kept it. One day he approached the new minister and told him that he couldn't care for the garden any longer. He explained with a shy and happy smile, "My wife just had a baby boy last night, and she's bringing him home on Saturday." "Well, congratulations!" said the minister, as he was handed the garden shed keys. "That's wonderful! What's the baby's name?" It is Carl. ~author unknown 4377 From: Erik Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:25am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Would it be asking too much to not just be firm but also slow things down a > bit and practice being more gentle? This is an excellent reminder, and I thank you for it--and I am sure I will need it again in the very near future. I often forget that this medium can't ever convey the very wide range of feelings behind the words, and it is very easy to believe you're saying one thing and have people read the complete opposite of the intended message. When, for example, directness is tempered in "real life" by a smile or jolly demeanor, that same directness, in this medium, can read very differently. So I shall endeavour to be more mindful of my speech (and try to avoid the stiltedness that engenders--not so easy to find the Middle Way!). 4378 From: Num Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed Thanks Ven. for an uplifting story. I can only wish that I can be that kind, nice, forgiving and patient. Wish the robber learn and can feel radiance of your metta as well. Anumodhana Num 4379 From: Erik Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:51am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of factors for > it. For the record, the Abhidharma is an integral part of the Tibetan canon, and is studied by all schools. Perhaps studying the Tipitaka's version as well as the Tibetan Abhidharmakosa is somewhat unorthodox, but then again, this sort of comparative analysis hasn't been this easy until now, either (I am lucky enough to have one of three extant translations of the Tibetan recension of the Abhidharmakosa in English). To me this presents an unusual opportunity I have found difficult to pass up. > I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the least was > trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get you to > share about your practice and not only discuss theory. Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the Tibetan path here; I was referring to scholasticism as a practice in and of itself, which includes all the discussions on Dhamma going on here. It's a very powerful practice, so long as the concepts don't become stand-ins for what they're pointing at. Discussing theory IS practice if approached the right way, if we're not attached to the words, but are instead concerned with what the words point at (I think I've been unmistakably clear this is my approach). Likewise, ANY practice can become poison if approached the wrong way, study, "dynamic meditation," etc. The Middle Way is not so easy. 4380 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Right view - different kinds of In my haste to post off my message to Betty last night, I failed to spot a blatant error which was a leftover from a different version of this paragraph. > Panna cetasika arising at moments that are > satipatthana (eg. at moment of samatha) is right > view > of the [mundane] Eightfold Path. Samatha is not an aspect of satipatthana, and the reference to 'moment of samatha' is out of place here. Please ignore it. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. 4381 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Thank you for this very timely reminder. Sila, samadhi, panna. Not one without the other. Thank you. Herman -----Original Message----- From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tuesday, 27 March 2001 7:02 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik >OK folks, let's sip some iced coffee and plop some ice-cream into it! If >anyone is cold, there is always hot chocolate and nice ways to enjoy that! > >I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. On one hand there is >great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing of deep Dhamma but on >the other hand, where is the practical application? There is something of a >kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. Something seems to be >missing. > >Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study". > >But how about a bit more practice like there was only 5 minutes or less left >for each of us to be alive? > >Something is not right here. There is a lot of clinging and grasping I see >in the writing. > >Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply this Dhamma and not just >relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others (including non-sentient >beings) then what is the point? > >As we share the Dhamma here, I also observe this level of tension here that >seems to plague the whole planet. Shouldn't we know better and DO better? > >Would it be asking too much to not just be firm but also slow things down a >bit and practice being more gentle? > >If I am off the beam here, out of line, or mistaken, then I ask for >forgiveness. > >May this find everyone in the community with growing inner peace. > >May this find all of you well. >May all of you be truly well. >May all of you be free from suffering. >May all of you know happiness >and the cause of happiness. > >With Great Metta, > >Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > >Buddhadharma International Foundation >http://www.buddhadharma.org/ > 4382 From: Howard Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] threatened and robbed Lovely, Bhante! Thank you so much for this beautiful piece!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4383 From: Howard Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Hi, Erik (and all) - In a message dated 3/26/01 7:53:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Erik writes: > --- "cybele chiodi" > wrote: > > > And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of > factors for > > it. > > For the record, the Abhidharma is an integral part of the Tibetan > canon, and is studied by all schools. Perhaps studying the Tipitaka's > version as well as the Tibetan Abhidharmakosa is somewhat unorthodox, > but then again, this sort of comparative analysis hasn't been this > easy until now, either (I am lucky enough to have one of three extant > translations of the Tibetan recension of the Abhidharmakosa in > English). To me this presents an unusual opportunity I have found > difficult to pass up. > > > I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the > least was > > trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get > you to > > share about your practice and not only discuss theory. > > Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the Tibetan path here; I was > referring to scholasticism as a practice in and of itself, which > includes all the discussions on Dhamma going on here. It's a very > powerful practice, so long as the concepts don't become stand-ins for > what they're pointing at. Discussing theory IS practice if approached > the right way, if we're not attached to the words, but are instead > concerned with what the words point at (I think I've been > unmistakably clear this is my approach). Likewise, ANY practice can > become poison if approached the wrong way, study, "dynamic > meditation," etc. The Middle Way is not so easy. > > > =============================== Study, and the discussion of theory are certainly very important. But in my case, and I do not assume that this is other than idiosyncratic to me, when a *great deal* of study and discussion is engaged in by me, I tend to find other aspects of practice slipping - most specifically sitting meditation and moment-to-moment mindfulness, and I find myself losing ground. When this happens it is a signal to me to move in the opposite direction, to move away from intellectual practice and towards more direct practice of concentration, attention and of the heart. This seems to be the point I am at now, and, accordingly, I plan to "shift gears", which will include a little less active participation on the list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4384 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:24am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman > I feel sad, numb and flattened - sadness is aversion? > I am not rejecting or fighting out my sadness. > I am just accepting the way it is and being patient, taking it easy. > All wounds need time to heal. Dear Cybele, Dosa, 'unpleasant feeling', has many degrees and faces, although even some great translators use 'anger'. Sadness is a kind of dosa, which arises and falls away like anything else, whether one fights or accepts it. When there are conditions it will arise again, but it cannot stay unchanged. > Personally I never worry that much because of physical pain, I am quite > strong enduring it and I never take anaesthesia when I go to the dentist for > example. I can cope. Physical pain doesn't scares me. > But mental suffering is the issue. I was not concerned about my life in that > moment but about my mental safety, my mental balance surviving it. Wow, you must really have a high tolerance to physical pain! My dentist uses as little as possible saying it is bad for the kidneys. I think what the teachings say is that without the body one would not only have no physical pain possible but almost none of the mental dukkha as well. As now I > don't have bruises or bodily pain but I am 'sore inside'. > We cannot be free from mental suffering as well. > What about mental illness then? > I would not detach the body and the mind like that, they are entwined in one > another and influence one another. Can there be mental illness if there were no rupa? Phobia is for the most part fear of harm, coming from dosa against something that might 'hurt you' or touch you; even fear of height includes the fear of falling down and getting hurt. Schizophrenia often involves suspicion that others are talking about one and planning to harm one in some way. In a round about way it still involves the rupa, one's own and other's. In fact most illnesses involve the rupa, enhancing or suppressing the sensations thereof, I think, since they take the 'body' as well as the 'mind' for the 'self'. The Buddha teaches us to know the body as the body that arises and falls away according to conditions as well as the citta, not us at all in the end, whether we want it that way or not. This is the truth we must face and if possible profit from by studying realities that appear, even our own 'bodies' and 'mental states' to see if there is really any 'self' in all this. > I think that what it was meant to be is that Dhamma protected me. > how many times have you heard of a delinquent that changes mind and releases > 'the victim'? > I will never be overcautious as my nature is adventurous but sure I am > watching out after this experience. You can bet, I am not to be imprudent > again! > I don't have a suspicious nature but better develop a bit of wariness just > in case. :-)) > I never doubted that pain is a harsh but good teacher but > sometimes he really 'gets on my nerves', such awful, rude manners, my > goodness!! ;-))) >Let's say that now I am 'a pale winter sun' but my tropical bright sun will shine again I confide. Ø I am happy to hear this, and hope your mental recovery will be rapid and as painless as possible, May the dhamma keep you and continue to protect you, Amara 4385 From: Erik Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:32am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik --- Howard wrote: Hi Howard, > Study, and the discussion of theory are certainly very important. But > in my case, and I do not assume that this is other than idiosyncratic to me, > when a *great deal* of study and discussion is engaged in by me, I tend to > find other aspects of practice slipping - most specifically sitting > meditation and moment-to-moment mindfulness, and I find myself losing ground. > When this happens it is a signal to me to move in the opposite direction, to > move away from intellectual practice and towards more direct practice of > concentration, attention and of the heart. This seems to be the point I am at > now, and, accordingly, I plan to "shift gears", which will include a little > less active participation on the list. For me it's the opposite. The past two years has been dhutanga practice of sorts, meaning I had a lot of things happen that were extremely difficult to work through, took all my energy, and terminated a lot of akusala-kamma. No serious study or formal practice in other words (apart from learning to deal with a lot of my own akusala-vipaka). I find that study totally invigorates everything else for me, particularly "real world" practice. The times my practice is best is when study and meditation are both going full bore, as I have found that one directly supports the other. But that is my idiosyncracy. 4386 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:42am Subject: Re: threatened and robbed Venerable sir, Thank you for the lovely lesson, Amara 4387 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:45pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard > "To exist is to be > observable" in the sense that if certain > experiences are made to occur, then > certain other experiences will also occur. So, > when I say "The sky is blue", > for example, what I mean is something along the > following lines (still with > heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should > someone with functionally > unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will > see the color blue"; i.e., > Should this occur, then that will occur; When > this arises, then that arises > (but all in experiential terms rather than > existential terms). > I haven't put this very well. i hope you > get my drift. > Thanks for the clarification. I think we are closer than I thought we were. How would you answer the question that Erik asked (if a tree falls in the forest and "makes sound" and there is nobody there to observe it, does the sound exist?). kom 4388 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Kom, I know the question was not directed to me, but I couldn't resist the temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-) There is no tree and there is no forest without nama/rupa. There is rupa without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself or anything else for that matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling over all over the place all the time, but the forms this takes, and the qualities this has, are shaped by nama/rupa. What something would be without it being known is ......... unknowable. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tuesday, 27 March 2001 15:24 Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana >Dear Howard, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Howard >> "To exist is to be >> observable" in the sense that if certain >> experiences are made to occur, then >> certain other experiences will also occur. So, >> when I say "The sky is blue", >> for example, what I mean is something along the >> following lines (still with >> heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should >> someone with functionally >> unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will >> see the color blue"; i.e., >> Should this occur, then that will occur; When >> this arises, then that arises >> (but all in experiential terms rather than >> existential terms). >> I haven't put this very well. i hope you >> get my drift. >> > >Thanks for the clarification. I think we are closer than I >thought we were. How would you answer the question that >Erik asked (if a tree falls in the forest and "makes sound" >and there is nobody there to observe it, does the sound >exist?). > >kom > 4389 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:48pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Herman, > -----Original Message----- > From: Herman Hofman > There is no tree and there is no forest without > nama/rupa. There is rupa > without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself > or anything else for that > matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling > over all over the place all > the time, but the forms this takes, and the > qualities this has, are shaped > by nama/rupa. What something would be without it > being known is ......... > unknowable. Thanks for answering. I have no arguments here... kom 4390 From: <> Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:08pm Subject: Archan Sujin's quote on March 24, 2001 English Dhamma Discussion Archan Sujin quote :- I think that we really do not know how much kilesa, one has accumulated, so deeply, so very very deeply rooted. So we think that it is not too difficult to develop understanding, just by reading and coming to have class on abhidhamma and think that one knows it all so well. BUT what about the motives of studying ? Just to know or by knowing one self, that we have lots of akusula that should be completely eradicated. And there is only one way by developing the understanding and see the danger of akusula. Otherwise, we will be careless to do evil things or to have evil thought andnot thinking about eradicating any kind of akusula at all. BUT by seeing the danger of it, and we know that i's impossible to get rid of all defilement, without the development of right understanding to see realities as they are. That is why, we came to know, to study, in order to be able to eradicate all defilement. What are you doing in daily life, can tell you whether you really have the resolution,the Adhitthana Parami which supports you to go on and on studying with reducing your ego and all defilements. BUT if you still like that, it means that you crave for knowing and you do not look at NOW, the danger of just the process of Javana, from moment to moment of akusula, lobha, mana, of everything more and more. Archan Sujin unquoted 4391 From: teng kee ong Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:32pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana -----Original Message----- From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:57:26 -0800 Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Kom, There should be two english translation (or for other languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana pannatti(sabhava-with individual essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the avijjamana pannatti (asabhava-without individual essence)as concept.But I still can't decide which should the word be used for both kinds combine like tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of avijjamana and vijjamanapannatti). Nyanamoli used the word produce for nipphanna and positively produce for parinipphanna.I think it is good enough.From this you can see our text book didn't put the avijjamanapannatti(concept) as uncondition because it is still positively produce besides anipphanna.Asankhata pannatti(nibbana,nirodha etc)is anipphanna and aparinipphanna. I can't do anything if the other members in this list for still having the wrong view that pannatti are all without individual essence.See puggala pannatti text for khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti etc. From Teng Kee Dear Teng Kee, > > Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to > discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined > book). Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in > English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts > mentioned: > > The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes > between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti > (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). > > 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known > what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå > (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 . > > 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known > what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. > These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta > and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner > are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional > realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala > citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? > Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a > dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai > or foreign. > > 3...6 skipped here. (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: teng kee ong > > > > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is > > uncondition.We have two kinds of > > 6 kinds...according to the book (and maybe Vissudhimagga?) > > > pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and > > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti > > are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana > > pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata > > I am sorry for being a bit slow here, but would you give > definitions for nipphana and parinipphana? I can't find the > definitions anywhere on the internet. (I can guess what > nipphana is as there is such thing as "nipphana rupa", but I > can't guess at parinipphana). > > kom > 4392 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 7:58pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana dear teng, I am not sure if I follow you on this matter. the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti "1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or sanna (perception) 10. 2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign. 3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and for what is not real. 4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real. 5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which experiences. 6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities"" ___ Note that #1 vijamma pannati refers to concepts about elements that are real. The words used to decribe them are of course concepts and are thus classified as pannatti but the actual paramattha dhammas refered to such as the khandas, ayatanas and dhatus - which have sabhava- are not themselves pannatti. robert --- teng kee ong wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Kom Tukovinit" > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:57:26 -0800 > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > Dear Kom, > There should be two english translation (or for other > languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana pannatti(sabhava-with > individual essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and > asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the avijjamana > pannatti (asabhava-without individual essence)as concept.But I > still can't decide which should the word be used for both > kinds combine like tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of > avijjamana and vijjamanapannatti). > Nyanamoli used the word produce for nipphanna and positively > produce for parinipphanna.I think it is good enough.From this > you can see our text book didn't put the > avijjamanapannatti(concept) as uncondition because it is still > positively produce besides anipphanna.Asankhata > pannatti(nibbana,nirodha etc)is anipphanna and aparinipphanna. > I can't do anything if the other members in this list for > still having the wrong view that pannatti are all without > individual essence.See puggala pannatti text for > khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti etc. > From Teng Kee > > > > Dear Teng Kee, > > > > Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to > > discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined > > book). Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in > > English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts > > mentioned: > > > > The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes > > between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti > > (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). > > > > 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known > > what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå > > (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 . > > > > 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known > > what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. > > These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta > > and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner > > are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional > > realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala > > citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? > > Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a > > dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai > > or foreign. > > > > 3...6 skipped here. (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: teng kee ong > > > > > > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is > > > uncondition.We have two kinds of > > > > 6 kinds...according to the book (and maybe Vissudhimagga?) > > > > > pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and > > > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti > > > are those khandha ,dhatu,ayatana > > > pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and asankhata > > > > I am sorry for being a bit slow here, but would you give > > definitions for nipphana and parinipphana? I can't find the > > definitions anywhere on the internet. (I can guess what > > nipphana is as there is such thing as "nipphana rupa", but I > > can't guess at parinipphana). > > > > kom 4393 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Ven Dhammapiyo, May I also say how sorry I was to hear about the passing away of your friend, but how fortunate it was that he was able to appreciate the dhamma until the end. --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > > > I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. > On one hand there is > great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing > of deep Dhamma but on > the other hand, where is the practical application? On the other hand, I thought the dialogue you refer to was rather a useful (but difficult) one and that there was a lot of 'practical application'. Both Erik and Cybele were very sincere and honest with their comments, I thought, and were genuinely trying to share their different undrstandings of the Teachings. > There is something of a > kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. > Something seems to be > missing. May I ask what you mean by dukkha? > > Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study". > > But how about a bit more practice like there was > only 5 minutes or less left > for each of us to be alive? May I also know what you mean by practice? Can we tell when another is practising? > > Something is not right here. There is a lot of > clinging and grasping I see > in the writing. > > Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply > this Dhamma and not just > relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others > (including non-sentient > beings) then what is the point? Isn't there a lot of clinging and grasping for us all, all day long anyway? Is the aim really to 'relieve dukkha'? Perhaps I should also ask what you mean by 'apply Dhamma' and how we release ourselves and OTHERS? Ven Sir, I'm just trying to understand your comments which are a little perplexing to me. I would appreciate a brief elaboration. With Regards, Sarah 4394 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:33pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Please send me a copy. Desmond B. Chiong 1455 San Marino Ave., San Marino, CA 91108 USA metta, des >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana >Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:56:30 -0800 (PST) > >dear teng, >this matter is explained in Realities and Concepts by sujin >Boriharnwanaket. If you send me your address off-list I still >have a few copies left and will airmail it pronto. >robert >--- teng kee ong wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Kom Tukovinit" > > Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:25:07 -0800 > > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > > Dear Kom, > > I will give the text here.only one pannatti is uncondition.We > > have two kinds of pannatti-vijjamana pannatti(sabhava)and > > avijjamana pannatti(asabhava).Vijjamana pannatti are those > > khandha ,dhatu,ayatana pannatti(nipphana and parinipphana)and > > asankhata pannatti(aparinipphana and anipphana).Avijjhamana > > pannatti like puggala,king ,son, etc are only anipphana but > > not aparinipphana .So this kind of pannatti can be called half > > uncondition.It is a condition dhamma for both kind of > > concepts except asankhata pannatti.see puggala pannatti > > text,atthakatha,tika and anutika. > > from Teng Kee 4395 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts - nature of Erik I see a number of points of apparent disagreement in our posts, which I would like to follow along. > The way I see this is that pannatti may lack their > "own" essence (so > do all dhammas) but they must take on the > characteristic of what > they're pointing to. How could it be otherwise? I am not familiar with this idea of a concept ‘taking on the characteristic’ of what it’s pointing to. If one thinks of, for example, a number (say, 9), exactly what ‘characteristic’ does that thought ‘take on’? > A pannatti has > to "mark" an arammana somehow to distinguish it from > another > arammana. Otherwise there'd be no way to distinguish > arammana A from > arammana B, no way to distinguish "red" from "blue." This sounds pretty much like a description of the function of the cetasika ‘sanna’. From the Atthasalini: "[Sanna] has the characteristic of noting and the function of recognising what has previously been noted. … [It has] the function of making marks as a condition for repeated perception (for recognising or remembering)" > Even if we speak > of pannatti in relation paramattha > dhammas--especially in relation to > paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a > distinguishing > characteristic and still perform the function of > "pointing to" the > arammana? This is another aspect of pannatti that I have not come across before. Could you give an example of how pannatti ‘points to an arammana’? > Also, to my understanding, pannatti are > sammati-sacca, > meaning that they are sankhara dhammas as well. > > > Pannatti are entirely a creation of the mind, and > > therefore have no substance whatsoever. > > What dhamma has substance? Even rupa lacks essence, > "substance," > because it's anatta & anicca. This does not make > pannatti unique in > this regard. > > Also, I am curious to hear what the Abhidhamma > position is on what is > NOT a creation of the mind apart from nibbana. Would > paramattha > dhammas even "exist" without a nama there to > perceive rupa? The > better-known version of this question is, if a tree > falls in the > forest and there's no sota-vinnana there, is there a > sound at all? More precisely, do rupas (in the example you have given) arise and fall when not being experienced by namas, or do they only arise and fall at the precise moments of being experienced by namas? Forget the tree in the forest for the moment. Take the visible object that you presently take for computer monitor. If you were to close your eyes so that that visible object is no longer being experienced, would it continue to arise and fall away? The answer i believe must be that, as a conditioned dhamma, the visible object will arise and fall awaay if there are the conditions for it to continue to do so. What are those conditions? According to the abhidhamma, all rupas are conditioned by either kamma, consciousness, temperature or nutriment. The rupas that we take for rocks, wind etc are conditioned by temperature alone. Whatever the particular conditioning factor at play, the point is that all these conditioning factors exists independently of our perceiving of the rupa which is the conditioned reality. Erik, thanks for all your points and comments. Jon 4396 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:11am Subject: Thank you Dear Sarah, Thank you for your condolences. Bill was surely one who tasted enlightenment --- of this I have no doubts now. I observed incredible changes because of his complete entrance in the Refuge. He practiced formally and informally. He used every second to practice and sometimes we shared wonderful humor and laughs. His insight was astounding and his rigorous honesty refreshing. These were cause for his ability to gain wisdom and share it. It is a terrible loss not just to me personally but to all of us who could learn from this loving and most compassionate human being. But then, too, perhaps nothing is lost as the inspiration continues. All his efforts before his sudden death were in preparation to support the Dhamma any way he could. I think he did just that right up to the end. I am leaving Nepal for a period of time to travel to the US. There is much work to be done for the Foundation and the hospital project. I am also recovering from viral pericarditis, a liver abscess, and repeated problems from water contamination here that lead to those two other complications, and my physician here is insisting I rest, and I have promised him I will do so...but work at a different pace! (Compromise thing going on there!) My first stop was to visit with my parents and then on to Bill's, where we were going to work together on all kinds of things. If there ever was a lesson to be learned from this, I think it has been a most profound one. Bill and I agreed on something --- and the words are quite poignant and timely advice for us all: Practice like you only have 5 minutes or less to live the rest of your life! Again, thank you. I appreciate your taking the time to write. May this find you well. Metta and Love, Bhante D. 4397 From: Howard Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, Kom - In a message dated 3/27/01 12:53:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kom writes: > Dear Howard, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Howard > > "To exist is to be > > observable" in the sense that if certain > > experiences are made to occur, then > > certain other experiences will also occur. So, > > when I say "The sky is blue", > > for example, what I mean is something along the > > following lines (still with > > heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should > > someone with functionally > > unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will > > see the color blue"; i.e., > > Should this occur, then that will occur; When > > this arises, then that arises > > (but all in experiential terms rather than > > existential terms). > > I haven't put this very well. i hope you > > get my drift. > > > > Thanks for the clarification. I think we are closer than I > thought we were. How would you answer the question that > Erik asked (if a tree falls in the forest and "makes sound" > and there is nobody there to observe it, does the sound > exist?). > > kom > ==================================== This last question isn't dissimilar to the blue sky question. The main point, as I see it, is: What does it mean that "a tree falls in the forest"? The more standard point is: What does it mean to make sound? Is it (potential) experience, or is it something independent of experience? With regard to either point, as I see it, this is an experiential matter, either actual or conditional. [Relatedly, but somewhat as a side issue, there is an orderliness to the world of experience, and it is a shared world, an intersubjective world. What occurs within one "beings" 's experience is related to what occurs within another's. It all hangs together, which is what supports the impression of an objective, external "reality", independent of even the possibility of observation.] I think the main point of the question is actually: If an event occurs, but no sentient being observes it, does it really occur? As I see it, one has to ask what is meant at the very outset by "the event occurring". To me that has to mean that "it" was either observed by at least one sentient being or, more generally, if certain steps had been taken, then it *would* have been so observed; i.e., due to previous experiential events, a certain conditionality was established. This is about the best I can do. I'm not a philosopher. All that I can add is my general sense of the world being *like* a dream, in fact, like a brilliantly engineered lucid dream. I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a bit off-topic for the list, and probably should only be continued privately. Whether matters are the way I see them or not is not critical to the Buddha's path to liberation. Some say his approach was that of phenomenalism, and others disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and the escape from suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4398 From: Howard Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Hi, Herman - In a message dated 3/27/01 2:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, Herman H writes: > Kom, > > I know the question was not directed to me, but I couldn't resist the > temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-) > > > There is no tree and there is no forest without nama/rupa. There is rupa > without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself or anything else for that > matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling over all over the place all > the time, but the forms this takes, and the qualities this has, are shaped > by nama/rupa. What something would be without it being known is ......... > unknowable. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ================================ This is almost exactly my position as well. Your last sentence, "What something would be without it being known is ......... unknowable.," is quintessential phenomenalism! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4399 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:22am Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator Dear Erik, this mail is returned as failed delivery and therefore I am resending it now. From: "cybele chiodi" Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:56:11 -0000 Dear Erik A bit of flare up can enlive and give a bit of spice to 'season' all the 'mind crunching', I am glad you decided eventually to reply: I wrote in response to your affirmation that you deliberately 'ignored me' in the list interaction: >I dare to say Erik that you are not ignoring me or this pile of compounded >phenomena identified and labelled as Cybele but you are ignoring to confront >REAL LIFE and ignoring me is just an attempt of escaping confrontation with your practice. You replied: I dare to say you are making a very presumptuous statement here in attempting to ascertain another's practice. How can you possibly know what goes on in another's mind? Think on this one long and hard and ask yourself if it's reasonable to make assumptions about another's mentality based on no more than a few splotches of light and dark on a computer screen. Also, let me be very clear on one point. I do not discuss meditation experiences with others unless they happen to be my teachers, and it is in the context of explaining what's going on in the interest of getting corrective instruction. There is heart- advice directly against doing so by my lineage's founder, Je Tsongkhapa, who said that "it is wise to keep one's realizations hidden as if guarding precious treasures." My response: I don't know indeed what goes on your mind and I simply invited you to share it in front of this virtual Dhamma brotherhood. What I meant in my 'assumption' it was basically that refusing to expose about your real experience and discussing it only on dialetic terms you and us were wasting an opportunity of disclosure on your actual Dhamma practice that's what's most interesting and nurturing for ourselves and others in this discussions. I was not being pedantic, you miscostrued my approach. If ever we continue interacting you will perceive that I am not at all presumptuos. Perhaps a bit impertinent as bhante well know. ;-) I was not at all intending to be judgemental about your practice Erik, my concern was exclusively to stimulate you to accept discussing on your own terms and not just sticking to the intellectual aspect of Dhamma. And I did not mean you to explicate about your meditation experiences in particular; I was not alluding to it and I respect if you consider them a private issue. But we are together in Dhamma walking our solitary path Erik and sharing real experiences is encouraging and gives us the real dimension of our practice in my opinion, otherwise often we lose ourselves in sterile mental twisting seeking intellectual pleasure and the reassurance of a logical pattern and we grow apart from what Dhamma is about, present moment. Like now just discussing this issues with me and I and you realizing our aversion and delusion and arrogance and misunderstanding. Touching it, experiencing our mind states. This is Dhamma for me, I am investigating my mind right now while I am trying to clarify with you. I am talking with you in all earnest Erik, you might not trust but I am not an ambivalent person and some people here could vow on my sincerity. No need to be defensive with me, I am not attacking you at all in my confrontations - I genuinely want to share not only to enhance my point or prove you wrong. Metta Cybele