4400 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik Dear Erik >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > And in the Tibetan path plus Abhidhamma you found the sinergy of >factors for > > it. > >For the record, the Abhidharma is an integral part of the Tibetan >canon, and is studied by all schools. Perhaps studying the Tipitaka's >version as well as the Tibetan Abhidharmakosa is somewhat unorthodox, >but then again, this sort of comparative analysis hasn't been this >easy until now, either (I am lucky enough to have one of three extant >translations of the Tibetan recension of the Abhidharmakosa in >English). To me this presents an unusual opportunity I have found >difficult to pass up. Good for you being openminded and interested in a comparative study of Tipitaka's version and the Tibetan Adhidharmakosa. You are 'breaking the rules' with your unorthodox approach!!! ;-) Notice the smile Erik, even in this media we can reinforce as soften up words with a virtual smile. > > > I never, ever attempted to criticize the Tibetan path or in the >least was > > trying to 'knock' anything of your convictions but again only get >you to > >share about your practice and not only discuss theory. > >Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of the Tibetan path here; I was >referring to scholasticism as a practice in and of itself, which >includes all the discussions on Dhamma going on here. It's a very >powerful practice, so long as the concepts don't become stand-ins for >what they're pointing at. Discussing theory IS practice if approached >the right way, if we're not attached to the words, but are instead >concerned with what the words point at (I think I've been >unmistakably clear this is my approach). Likewise, ANY practice can >become poison if approached the wrong way, study, "dynamic >meditation," etc. The Middle Way is not so easy. Is there anything EASY Erik? We all strive in this Middle Way as in the radical ways for that matter. We strive anyway and it's called dukkha. Indeed what I was trying to point out was exactly this very common attitude of shielding ourselves behind words and concepts and attaching to them defending extrenuously our positions, getting stuck in erudition instead of learning the fresh, invigorating lesson of the present moment. When you affirm things about your convictions chosing words like 'unmistakable' I wonder Erik; what can we be so secure about our beliefs and our skills of living in coeherence with them? And above all our capacity of communicating them in a clear, nitid, 'unmistakable' way? I change mind every second as you as everybody else, therefore all this perpetual values do not exist for me. Nothing can ever be 'unmistakable' unless we are enlightened. I 'awake' day after day to another reality and 'study it' and learn from it getting my fresh insights. The journey is so long and tiring my dhamma brother and grasping to our 'convictions' doesn't make it easier at all. The only thing that soothes our burning pain is loving kindness and compassion. Love and respect Cybele 4401 From: Erik Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 6:01am Subject: Re: Concepts - nature of --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I am not familiar with this idea of a concept `taking > on the characteristic' of what it's pointing to. If > one thinks of, for example, a number (say, 9), exactly > what `characteristic' does that thought `take on'? It takes on a characteristic that distinguishes 9 from 10, for example. Perhaps a quote from Khun Sujim would clarify, because it's the closest I can find to what I've been trying to say: "Even though [pannatti] are not paramattha-dhamma, they are arammana of the cittuppada by their signs or the shadow of meanings (the parallel of paramattha) designated in such a manner because it parallels or compares by making known [with language] the sign or features so that people can say, understand one another, call, make known the meanings." > > Even if we speak > > of pannatti in relation paramattha > > dhammas--especially in relation to > > paramattha dhammas. How can a pannatti lack a > > distinguishing > > characteristic and still perform the function of > > "pointing to" the > > arammana? > > This is another aspect of pannatti that I have not > come across before. Could you give an example of how > pannatti `points to an arammana'? Perhaps "points to" is a poor choice of words. "Represents" is better, I think. See above on this, anyway. Jon, thanks for your other comments on the "tree falling in the forest" question. I see it another way at the moment, namely, that even if there is rupa in theory that rises and falls, since it isn't happening now as direct experience, it hardly matters; the question's academic. Or, more to the point, there's nothing "real" apart from what's being cognized at any given instant, so the question doesn't even apply. 4402 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: cognize nibbana Dear Des, I sent this out sometime ago but it didn't seem to show in the list messages, so please ignore if there is duplication: While you are waiting for Robert's book you might want to take a look at the chapter on pannatti in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhama' in the advanced section of , Amara 4404 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Howard, Thanks for your comments. I should reread the whole thread on "cognizing nibbbana". It has thrown up interesting perspectives. Speaking of which, how would the concept of "should" or "must" (as in a moral imperative) be translated into the syntax of not-self? I often wonder what is meant when it is written, for example : "you should study the dhamma" . Who or what is being addressed? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Howard Date: Wednesday, 28 March 2001 3:40 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana >Hi, Herman - > >In a message dated 3/27/01 2:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, >Herman H writes: > > >> Kom, >> >> I know the question was not directed to me, but I couldn't resist the >> temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-) >> >> >> There is no tree and there is no forest without nama/rupa. There is rupa >> without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself or anything else for that >> matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling over all over the place all >> the time, but the forms this takes, and the qualities this has, are shaped >> by nama/rupa. What something would be without it being known is ......... >> unknowable. >> >> Kind Regards >> >> >> Herman >> 4405 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mana :pride and esteem Dear Erik, Num & Howard, Erik, I thought all your additional comments on this subject below were 'spot on'. Thankyou. You've obviously read and considered a lot about mana. I'll add just one more quote that Nina VG refers to in 'Cetasikas'*: Nina writes: 'So long as conceit has not been eradicated there are many opportunities for its arising. It arises more often than we would think. The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga,Ch 17, 832) gives a very reveling list of the objects on account of which pride and conceit can aise: "Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority; pride of being (a regular) alms collector; accomplishment; pride of popularity; pride of being moral; pride of jhana; pride of dexterity; pride of being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection..." 'end quotes As Erik reminds us, it can be any comparing with another- superior, inferior or equal with regard to these prides above. Hmm.... I've just checked the reference in the Vibhanga and there's a lot more detail. it discusses just this point above and further conceits included with 'thinking associated with sympathy for others; thinking associated with gain, being honoured, fame; thinking associated with being not despised'. Really almost any thinking about ourselves or others can be accompanied by mana! Howard & Erik, following on yr discussion on theory and practice, for me this kind of study and consideration is a very useful condition for reminders and moments of awareness to occur during my rather hectic daily life. During the last year, the list in particular, has meant I've done a lot more writing, considering and pulling out of texts than usual. This has all been invaluable to my 'dynamic meditation' (thanks Cybele) in daily life. Even as I sit here writing about mana, there are moments when mana is apparent! Thanks again, Erik. regards, Sarah * Howard, You mentioned in another post about interactions of cetasikas without the tables and dry lists...you'll really appreciate Nina VG's 'Cetasikas' when you get a copy or when it goes on line. --- Erik wrote: > There is actually another side to mana, and that's > false modesty. So > I think the dustrag analogy is also mana if taken > the wrong way, > though this form is subtler and certainly not as > offensive to others! > In all cases mana, at root, is based on comparing > self & other, no > matter how innocuous that comparison may appear. > > Here's are some other categories of mana I'm > familiar with: > > Pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking that one > is superior > to lower persons > > Excessive pride--a puffing up of the mind, thinking > that one > is superior to equal persons > > Pride beyond pride--a puffing up of the mind, > thinking that > one is greatly superior even to persons who are > superior to > others > > Pride of thinking I--a puffing up of the mind, > observing the > appropriated aggregates of mind and body and > thinking, 'I' > > Pride of conceit--a puffing up of the mind, thinking > that one > has attained what has not been attained, such as > clairvoyance > or meditative stabilization > > Pride of slight inferiority--a puffing up of the > mind, thinking > that one is just a little lower than others who are > actually > greatly superior > > Wrongful pride--a puffing up the mind, thinking that > one has > attained auspicious qualities when one has actually > deviated > from the path, such as claiming high attainments > when one > has actually been carried away by a spirit. > > On that note, I find it interesting that the > Polynesian languages > have the word "Mana" (pride, power) as well, and > it's wide enough to > connote the meaning of the Pali term. > 4406 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back To Observing Consciousness Dear Alex & Des, Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm not quite sure what you mean by observing consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at the start). Do you just mean 'citta'? --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > Observing consciousness does not work. > It is worked on. > Every time a conciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] > happens, the observing > consciousness is awakened. Now if Alex means a 'citta', I'm even more confused here. Citta can either experience an object (through sense and mind doors) or be experienced (through the mind door). Your definition to include citta, cetasika and rupa must be something quite different. Do you mean paramattha dhamma? Sorry, I'm lost. > In ordinary language, we say observing > consciousness, as though it is a > subject. Actually it is an object. Pls explain. > It is always very tricky to use the ordinary > language to describe extra > ordinary events. > All our understanding may all be the same, at a > certain advanced level. ..or it may be very different! We can only know if we discuss and clarify. > But to use ordinary language to agree that we > understand the same may not be > that easy. > The best way two people understand one another is > when they sit side by side > and one understand the other with no talking. I'm not so sure that we'd get very far....unless we have mind-reading abilities! > Just like when Buddha held a flower, Mahakasapa > smiled. Well, there is no doubt about their abilities, but I sugggest we have a way to go, Des! Thanks for your interesting and stimulating contributions! best regards, Sarah p.s. I just saw yr address brifely..did I note that you were in California? (maybe my sanna's playing tricks with old age..) If so, hope you get to visit Kom one day in S.F. 4407 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View :metta and secret Dear Num, (& Rob at the end) Num said: > Hmmmm. When I said that to Cybele I meant adosa > cetasika has it's immediate > action as well as it's consequence in kusula-vipaka > to the one who had done > the action with adosa cetasika. So the fruit is > not only outward effect to > the entities or people as but also give both > immediate and future effects to > a person who had done any actions with metta. > Anyway, you made me > think. At times I am mad or angry at myself, or > really give myself a hard > time. At times I can aware of my sense of self and > just that moment of > awareness gave me sense of calm and peace, feeling > of friendliness even to > myself. Can I call that metta? May be just call it > adosa moment. Hmm.... Sounds like some useful reflection anyway at those times, probably with adosa as you say, but not metta. There are many kinds and degrees of alobha. Metta (loving kindness) is only directed to (other) living beings. Adosa (non aversion) can even be directed to an object such as when there is patience with bodily poin such as when we have a toothache or any other unpleasant sense-door experience. I do agree with you about the beneficial results of metta to others and oneself, but of course at moments of concern about the benefits to oneself, there is no metta! Hope this clarifies, though I think you know this already! Sorry for the delays, it's really hard for me to keep up with your running pace! metta (at least a few moments anyway!), Sarah > > < learn from animals and trees??!??>> > > :) there is no secret, Sarah. What I've learned is > they are the same as > other dhamma, just a aggregation of rupa or rupa and > nama. The frogs with > fast life cycles egg, tadpole,..., adult. They lay > eggs and die. Rob, you said in this context: 'About contemplating the external mental objects. i assume this is a type of inferential contemplation. Any ideas?" Yes, this is how I understand it and have also read it..was just looking for a com. note i came across recently in Maj Nik on just this oint, but have lost 'my marker'..but it said just this. 4408 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman Dear Amara, I've appreciated all your posts to Cybele and I think it's very helpful to point out the different shades of dosa (aversion). You may just wish to re-do this paragraph below because I think in your haste you mixed up dosa (aversion) with dukkha vedana (unpleasant bodily feeling). For others, they are both nama (mental phenomena), but they arise at different moments and under different conditions. Dukkha vedana is vipakka (result of kamma) while dosa is akusala (unwholesome). Sarah --- Amara wrote: > > Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be > very subtle, as in > each time the body sense is in contact with > something that is not > causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can > only be lobha or > dosa as vedana, and no upekkha. Or it can be very > strong aversion to > something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest > form, a thundering > anger. 4409 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - Erik/Herman > You may just wish to re-do this paragraph below > because I think in your haste you mixed up dosa > (aversion) with dukkha vedana (unpleasant bodily > feeling). > > For others, they are both nama (mental phenomena), but > they arise at different moments and under different > conditions. Dukkha vedana is vipakka (result of kamma) > while dosa is akusala (unwholesome). > Sarah Dear Sarah, You're right, of course, they are totally different and one does not entail the other (though most of the time they do), absolutely my mistake, thanks for pointing that out! Amara > > Dosa however is a very common cetasika that can be > > very subtle, as in > > each time the body sense is in contact with > > something that is not > > causing lobha, since through the bodysense there can > > only be lobha or > > dosa as vedana, and no upekkha. Or it can be very > > strong aversion to > > something, as you are feeling now, or, the crudest > > form, a thundering > > anger. > > 4410 From: Herman Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Dogma or experience? Hi all, I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to mind) Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without references to whoever experienced this)? It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the same time, given that there is only ever one citta? Any insights would be appreciated. Kind Regards Herman 4411 From: teng kee ong Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Robert, I know about this .For a long time I can't be sure that 5 kinds vijjamanapannatti(besides that asankhata pannatti) for khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya pannatti,the words is another thing from the sabhava paramattha dhamma that been referred to-the word is concept only?.I think this apply only to avijjamanapannatti but not to vijjamana pannatti.This is why we must use two different english words for both kinds plus third kind for those two been combine into.Modern Myanamar think that there are two uncondition -one is nibbana ,the second is all pannatti.But there are a special pannatti named asankhata pannatti like nirodha ,nibbana etc which will not occur if all pannatti is uncondition.No reason to think like that because I think the vijjamana pannatti is the word used and taught by Buddha sasana only but not for other religion. I will come out with more notes based on kathavathu . From Teng Kee -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:58:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > dear teng, > I am not sure if I follow you on this matter. > the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six > kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti > "1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what > is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or > sanna (perception) 10. > > 2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what > is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts > do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which > are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the > absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti > dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be > Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a > reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is > not Thai or foreign. > > 3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the > non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the > person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but > person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real > and for what is not real. > > 4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the > existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression > "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real. > > 5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is > real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana > (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the > cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or > visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, > namely the reality which experiences. > > 6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what > is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression > "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are > sammutti dhammas, conventional realities"" > ___ > > > Note that #1 vijamma pannati refers to concepts about elements > that are real. The words used to decribe them are of course > concepts and are thus classified as pannatti but the actual > paramattha dhammas refered to such as the khandas, ayatanas and > dhatus - which have sabhava- are not themselves pannatti. > > > robert > > > > --- teng kee ong wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Kom Tukovinit" > > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:57:26 -0800 > > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > > Dear Kom, > > There should be two english translation (or for other > > languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana pannatti(sabhava-with > > individual essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and > > asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the avijjamana > > pannatti (asabhava-without individual essence)as concept.But I > > still can't decide which should the word be used for both > > kinds combine like tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of > > avijjamana and vijjamanapannatti). > > Nyanamoli used the word produce for nipphanna and positively > > produce for parinipphanna.I think it is good enough.From this > > you can see our text book didn't put the > > avijjamanapannatti(concept) as uncondition because it is still > > positively produce besides anipphanna.Asankhata > > pannatti(nibbana,nirodha etc)is anipphanna and aparinipphanna. > > I can't do anything if the other members in this list for > > still having the wrong view that pannatti are all without > > individual essence.See puggala pannatti text for > > khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti etc. > > From Teng Kee > > > > > > > > Dear Teng Kee, > > > > > > Given Roberts' suggestions, I am not sure if you want to > > > discuss this further (until you have a copy of the mentined > > > book). Since I don't have a copy of Visuddhamagga (in > > > English), here's a relevent comment from the book Roberts > > > mentioned: > > > > > > The Abhidhammattha Vibhåvaní (Book 8) distinguishes > > > between six kinds of concepts that are names, nåma-paññatti > > > (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). > > > > > > 1. Vijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known > > > what is real, for example the words rúpa, nåma, vedanå > > > (feeling), or saññå (perception)10 . > > > > > > 2. Avijjamåna paññattis, concepts which make known > > > what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. > > > These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta > > > and cetasika which are nåma, and rúpa. Thai or for-eigner > > > are not real in the absolute sense, they are con-ventional > > > realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala > > > citta 11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? > > > Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a > > > dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai > > > or foreign. > > > > > > 3...6 skipped here. (http://www.zolag.co.uk/cone.pdf) > > > 4412 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:48pm Subject: Re: Dogma or experience? Dear Herman, Does being 'experienced' by a Buddha count? Because he also said that there were countless other worlds over 2500 years before men were able to build telescopes powerful enough to 'see' other planets than those in our solar system. Amara > I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one > after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has > been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as > experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the > locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if > any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas > arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where > one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to > mind) > > > Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer > than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been > experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without > references to whoever experienced this)? > > It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can > it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , > whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the > same time, given that there is only ever one citta? > > Any insights would be appreciated. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 4413 From: Num Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mana :pride and esteem Thanks always Sarah for your detailed and careful response. <<<< I've just checked the reference in the Vibhanga and there's a lot more detail. it discusses just this point above and further conceits included with 'thinking associated with sympathy for others; thinking associated with gain, being honoured, fame; thinking associated with being not despised'. Really almost any thinking about ourselves or others can be accompanied by mana! >> I have Vibhanga by PTS with me. I could not find where is the above quote in the book. If you have time, could you tell me what par. no. is it in. Thanks in advance. I totally agree with you that mana occur very very often, at times hard to see b/c it arises with lobha and satisfaction. But it can cause dosa to arise later. Mana cannot arise with adosa cetasika or metta. We compare ourselves with other or even with ourselves quite often. Have to run to my tennis lesson before go into work. You caught me Sarah, I am the runner :) Until later. Appreciate, Num 4414 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mana :pride and esteem Hi Num, --- Num wrote: > Thanks always Sarah for your detailed and careful > response. > > <<<< > I've just checked the reference in the Vibhanga and > there's a lot more detail. it discusses just this > point above and further conceits included with > 'thinking associated with sympathy for others; > thinking associated with gain, being honoured, > fame; > thinking associated with being not despised'. > > Really almost any thinking about ourselves or > others > can be accompanied by mana! >> > > I have Vibhanga by PTS with me. I could not find > where is the above quote in > the book. If you have time, could you tell me what > par. no. is it in. Thanks > in advance. same ref as for the earlier quote, except now para 346. PTS copy, p.452, very bottom of the page...I left out some, just the last few examples... S. 4415 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:59pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana dear Teng, I sent Realities and Concepts today to both you and Des. It is somewhat terse so doesn't give all the details we would like but still clarifies a great deal. Pannatti can be a condition - there is no doubt about this, but there are differences in the way it conditions (compared to paramattha dhamma). The Patthana has something about this too. I have discussed this at times with Acharn Sujin and find her explanations very helpful and directly related to how we experience dhammas now. And of course I look forward very much to any writing and translation you do on the topic. robert --- teng kee ong wrote: > Dear Robert, > I know about this .For a long time I can't be sure that 5 > kinds vijjamanapannatti(besides that asankhata pannatti) for > khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya pannatti,the words is > another thing from the sabhava paramattha dhamma that been > referred to-the word is concept only?.I think this apply only > to avijjamanapannatti but not to vijjamana pannatti.This is > why we must use two different english words for both kinds > plus third kind for those two been combine into.Modern > Myanamar think that there are two uncondition -one is nibbana > ,the second is all pannatti.But there are a special pannatti > named asankhata pannatti like nirodha ,nibbana etc which will > not occur if all pannatti is uncondition.No reason to think > like that because I think the vijjamana pannatti is the word > used and taught by Buddha sasana only but not for other > religion. > I will come out with more notes based on kathavathu . > From Teng Kee > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:58:28 -0800 (PST) > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > > > > dear teng, > > I am not sure if I follow you on this matter. > > the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between > six > > kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti > > "1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known > what > > is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), > or > > sanna (perception) 10. > > > > 2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known > what > > is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These > concepts > > do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika > which > > are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the > > absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti > > dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) > be > > Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a > > reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, > it is > > not Thai or foreign. > > > > 3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of > the > > non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression > "the > > person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real > but > > person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is > real > > and for what is not real. > > > > 4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of > the > > existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression > > "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not > real. > > > > 5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of > what is > > real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana > > (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the > > cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour > or > > visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a > reality, > > namely the reality which experiences. > > > > 6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of > what > > is not real based on what is not real. There is the > expression > > "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are > > sammutti dhammas, conventional realities"" > > ___ > > > > > > Note that #1 vijamma pannati refers to concepts about > elements > > that are real. The words used to decribe them are of course > > concepts and are thus classified as pannatti but the actual > > paramattha dhammas refered to such as the khandas, ayatanas > and > > dhatus - which have sabhava- are not themselves pannatti. > > > > > > robert > > 4416 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - sarah and venerable D. dear venerable, I'm a bit worried to hear of your health problems - please take good care. I wish a speedy recovery. dear sarah, great comments below. However, I also felt venerable Dhammapiyo came in with his post in a timely manner when I too wondered if it was starting to get a little heated between Erik and Cybele. It may have been just the reminder we all need - we are not here to debate but to learn and help. Since then I have much appreciated the excellent exchange between cybele and Erik. robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Ven Dhammapiyo, > > May I also say how sorry I was to hear about the > passing away of your friend, but how fortunate it was > that he was able to appreciate the dhamma until the > end. > > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > wrote: > > > > > I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. > > On one hand there is > > great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing > > of deep Dhamma but on > > the other hand, where is the practical application? > > On the other hand, I thought the dialogue you refer to > was rather a useful (but difficult) one and that there > was a lot of 'practical application'. Both Erik and > Cybele were very sincere and honest with their > comments, I thought, and were genuinely trying to > share their different undrstandings of the Teachings. > > > There is something of a > > kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. > > Something seems to be > > missing. > > May I ask what you mean by dukkha? > > > > Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study". > > > > But how about a bit more practice like there was > > only 5 minutes or less left > > for each of us to be alive? > > May I also know what you mean by practice? Can we tell > when another is practising? > > > > Something is not right here. There is a lot of > > clinging and grasping I see > > in the writing. > > > > Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply > > this Dhamma and not just > > relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others > > (including non-sentient > > beings) then what is the point? > > Isn't there a lot of clinging and grasping for us all, > all day long anyway? Is the aim really to 'relieve > dukkha'? Perhaps I should also ask what you mean by > 'apply Dhamma' and how we release ourselves and > OTHERS? > > Ven Sir, I'm just trying to understand your comments > which are a little perplexing to me. I would > appreciate a brief elaboration. > > With Regards, > > Sarah > 4417 From: Howard Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 3/28/01 6:36:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, Herman writes: > Hi all, > > I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one > after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has > been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as > experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the > locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if > any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas > arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where > one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to > mind) > > > Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer > than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been > experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without > references to whoever experienced this)? > > It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can > it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , > whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the > same time, given that there is only ever one citta? > > Any insights would be appreciated. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ================================= I think these are very important questions. I particularly am interested by your pointing out that there must be either experiencing or counting, and there is also the whole matter of one citta at a time, each lasting for "moment". The whole ksanavada (sp?) theory of moments, originated by the Sautrantikas, I believe, strikes me as problematical, and as possibly leading to a form of annihilationism. This is an issue addressed by Kalupahana in his book NAGARJUNA. In this same regard, a thought which comes to mind (to *my* mind! ;-), is a thought-model introduced in artificial intelligence in which the "basic unit' of time is not a point, but, instead, is a fuzzy interval. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4418 From: Num Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View :metta and secret Hi again Sarah, > Rob, you said in this context: 'About contemplating > the external mental objects. i assume this is a type > of inferential contemplation. Any ideas?" > > Yes, this is how I understand it and have also read > it..was just looking for a com. note i came across > recently in Maj Nik on just this oint, but have lost > 'my marker'..but it said just this. > I'd like to see what the comment says as well. From my understanding, we cannot read a person's mind. The thing we do all the time is reading by interpreting facial expression, verbal, paraverbal and nonverbal language. I think they are all rupa that can come to contact with nama and then I use my past and personal experience to interprete the meaning as well as the hidden meaning of the expression. There are some limitation in this process, culture. Different culture at time has different meaning of the same expression. I've read that Pra. Anuruddha could read the moment of lord Buddha in mahaparinibhana sutta. I don't know how to call that ability. And the point that Pannatti come in is that we need to have an inference for communication. I have read 2 books a while ago, Mind Blindness by Simon Baron-Cohen, et al, I think he's from Denmark Hill. This book is talking about autistic kid and how to develop early screening instrument for Autism for prompt and early treatment and rehab. As you know, autistic kid has severe impairment both in verbal and nonverbal communication. In this book, it mentions some interesting theory of how man communicates and shows that how much we base our communication in nonverbal clue. The second one is, The Symbolic Species : The Co-Evolution of Language and the Brain by Terrence W. Deacon. He's from Harvard. This one is a little bit hard to read. But as I can recall, he said that we cannot read another person's mind. Definitely, he talked about concept and symbols which we use in communication. These two books are similar in the way that they are very evidence based writing. Well, that my personal opinion and background. To me awareness is very individual experience. Rupa and nama arise and fall away extremely fast. A lot of things I think I know are actually and speculation and assumption. Well, that why the Buddha called the ultimate truth, Abhidhamma. What do you think? Num 4419 From: Howard Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dogma or experience? Hi, Amara - In a message dated 3/28/01 6:49:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Amara writes: > Dear Herman, > > Does being 'experienced' by a Buddha count? Because he also said that > there were countless other worlds over 2500 years before men were able > to build telescopes powerful enough to 'see' other planets than those > in our solar system. > > Amara > > > > I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, > one > > after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has > > been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as > > experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the > > locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if > > any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas > > arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where > > one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to > > mind) > > > > > > Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer > > than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been > > experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without > > references to whoever experienced this)? > > > > It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How > can > > it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , > > whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at > the > > same time, given that there is only ever one citta? > > > > Any insights would be appreciated. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > Herman > > ================================== A few points: (1) Certainly in the suttas the Buddha said that mind changes far more rapidly than matter. Did he give such exact values there? Or were they only given in the books of the Abhidhamma? Or were they only given in the commentaries? I think it was in the Abhidhamma. But there isn't strong evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha in the same sense that the other two pitaka did. (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of a matter solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru being at the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be accepted as true? (3) Do you really think that folks developed telescopes "because" the Buddha spoke of other worlds? I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on authority and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a program for release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for ourselves. The more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our confidence increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4420 From: Alex T Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:25am Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Alex & Des, > > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm > not quite sure what you mean by observing > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'? Dear Sarah, Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally: ---------- Dear friends, From: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says: "When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness' whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was momentary." The part that interests me the most is the last two statements. What does the author mean by "observing consciousness"? Thank you, Alex Tran --------- Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same question in DSG. Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he said "consciousness". The problem is that each citta has its own object. That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta. Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same. If we say that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part of it, which are the common conditions between the two. The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in this world: observe the common conditions. Gradually, with more panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta. I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my question clearly. With Metta, Alex Tran 4422 From: Erik Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:42am Subject: Re: Dogma or experience? --- Howard wrote: > But there isn't strong > evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha in the same sense that the > other two pitaka did. I don't subscribe to the idea the historical Shakyamuni Buddha uttered the words found in the Abhidhamma based on what I've read of its history, though it has become quite clear to me that nearly everything in the Abhidhamma has a direct support from the suttas. On that note, I have no idea if the historical Shakyamuni actually spoke the words in the Suttas. The only "proof" to me is in their ability to help bring about liberation from suffering. So to me it hardly matters if the historical Shakyamuni actually taught Abhidhamma. What matters to me is how beneficial understanding these things is to the goal. It has obviously served many people well and will continue to do so. Certainly in terms of a system for clearly explaining the Dhamma, Abhidhamma is hard to beat. > (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of a matter > solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru being at > the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be accepted as > true? The way I see it is it's "true enough." In other words, I see it as a helpful myth, like the Jataka tales. I imagine it was very useful to those steeped in the Indian cosmology of the Buddha's day. It may be less useful to those raised with telescopes and quantum physics, though perhaps not. It is also possible to view this description of the universe in allegorical terms, and that's how I see it these days, as a 3-D representation NOT of cosmological space/time, but as a helpful way to visualize the various realms of existence. > I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on authority > and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a program for > release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for ourselves. I think emphasizing the letter of texts at the expense unpacking their inmost meaning chokes the Buddhadhamma, and turns it from a dynamic system of liberation into another set of sterile and unbeneficial dogmas having nothing to do with freedom. The one thing I love most about the Dhamma is it's truly ehipassika. That, and the fact it is a "raft," were the two most important characteristics of the Dhamma when I began exploring it, and are what made it stand (head & shoulders) above other sysems of thought I'd investigated. Another impressive feature of the Dhamma is how it's managed to evolve to suit the various accumulations of its adherents. Few systems could appear more dissimilar on surface than certain flavors of Buddhism, and yet all contain the identical essence. That this problem can be solved from so many different perspectives is, to me, a testament to the accuracy of the Buddha's central insight into suffering, its origins, its cessation, and the path leading to its cessation. What I have seen is that it all holds true, no matter how you slice it. What really amazes me is the integrity of this essence (4NT, tilakkhana, the need for lokuttara nana to abandon the kilesas, for example) across superficially dissimilar schools widely separated by both geography and time. > The > more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our confidence > increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to liberation. I could not have said it any better myself. Thank you once again for your insights, Howard. 4423 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:49am Subject: Re: Dogma or experience? > > Dear Herman, > > > > Does being 'experienced' by a Buddha count? Because he also said that > > there were countless other worlds over 2500 years before men were able > > to build telescopes powerful enough to 'see' other planets than those > > in our solar system. > ================================== > A few points: > > (1) Certainly in the suttas the Buddha said that mind changes far more > rapidly than matter. Did he give such exact values there? Or were they only > given in the books of the Abhidhamma? Or were they only given in the > commentaries? I think it was in the Abhidhamma. But there isn't strong > evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha in the same sense that the > other two pitaka did. Dear Howard, I'm glad I caught this message just as I was signing off, tomorrow I am off on another trip and won't be back til very late if at all. But I will get the exact reference for you when I get back. About the Abhidhamma's authenticity if you searched our group's achives you will find some discussions on that also. > (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of a matter > solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru being at > the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be accepted as > true? He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a 'Sineru' if I remember correctly. But if you looked at a galaxy from the side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill shaped? Of course he never said to believe even what he taught without proving it first, which is the crux for us, did what he teach about seeing and visible object true at this moment? Hearing and sound? Bodysense and 'hardness' or 'motion' at the tip of our fingers? He also said there are things experienced only through the mind, for example the subtle rupa. And things one should not ponder because it could never bring wisdom in the Buddhist sense and preoccupation with it without awareness of the present does not condone to bhavana. But I personally have never seen anyone able to prove anything he taught was wrong, allowing for mistranslation and such, of course. > (3) Do you really think that folks developed telescopes "because" the > Buddha spoke of other worlds? Did I say that? Although according to some sources people like Einstein said, if there is a religion that goes with science it is Buddhism. I simply meant to say that he KNEW even without teliscopes that there are other planetary systems all through the universe. > > I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on authority > and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a program for > release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for ourselves. The > more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our confidence > increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to liberation. I agree entirely. But the more you realize how deep the dhamma is, how exact and true it is, one is more and more amazed at his wisdom and the more confidence one has that the rest must be true too, unlike any other sciences where a theory is continually being revised, annotated and corrected and even annulled by more recent ones. Nothing like that has happened to his teachings for over 2500+ years, and doesn't look likely to happen, especially the parts he teaches us about ourselves. Amara 4424 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness When a moment of consciousness [17 cittas] arises out of interactions of [nama + rupa] or [citta + cetasika + rupa], (as a result of impingement of a stimulus on any of the five sense organs), the mind sense is stimulated or impinged as the fifth order of citta [1st= past bhavanga, 2nd= vibrating bhavanga, 3rd= arresting bhavanga, 4th sense door citta]in the normal sequence of 17 cittas. Once the mind sense is stimulated, the mind then becomes the subject as the observing consciousness, for an extremely short period of time, if one's mind is concentrated or one has the vipassana nana. I don't know how to say it more in words. Wishing you the best in your practice. with metta, des >From: Alex T >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness >Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:25:09 -0000 > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott >wrote: > > Dear Alex & Des, > > > > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm > > not quite sure what you mean by observing > > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at > > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'? > >Dear Sarah, > > Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally: >---------- >Dear friends, > > From: >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm > >in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says: > >"When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye >consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness' >whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen >after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed >away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing >consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye >consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was >momentary." > >The part that interests me the most is the last two statements. What >does the author mean by "observing consciousness"? > >Thank you, >Alex Tran >--------- > Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same >question in DSG. > > Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he >said "consciousness". The problem is that each citta has its own >object. That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta. >Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the >previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same. If we say >that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part >of it, which are the common conditions between the two. > > The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is >that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in >this world: observe the common conditions. Gradually, with more >panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta. > > I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my >question clearly. > >With Metta, >Alex Tran > 4425 From: Alex T Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:02am Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness Dear Des, Once again, thank you for your compassionate answer. With Metta, Alex Tran 4426 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator - sarah and venerable D. Dear Rob >However, I also felt venerable Dhammapiyo came in with his post >in a timely manner when I too wondered if it was starting to get >a little heated between Erik and Cybele. It may have been just >the reminder we all need - we are not here to debate but to >learn and help. >Since then I have much appreciated the excellent exchange >between cybele and Erik. >robert Well Robert Just to clarify, all my posts to Erik have been written and delivered before bhante intervention that nevertheless I very much appreciated. Love and respect Cybele >--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear Ven Dhammapiyo, > > > > May I also say how sorry I was to hear about the > > passing away of your friend, but how fortunate it was > > that he was able to appreciate the dhamma until the > > end. > > > > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > > wrote: > > > > > > > I am really having a bit of a paradoxical time here. > > > On one hand there is > > > great scholarship going on so much wonderful sharing > > > of deep Dhamma but on > > > the other hand, where is the practical application? > > > > On the other hand, I thought the dialogue you refer to > > was rather a useful (but difficult) one and that there > > was a lot of 'practical application'. Both Erik and > > Cybele were very sincere and honest with their > > comments, I thought, and were genuinely trying to > > share their different undrstandings of the Teachings. > > > > > There is something of a > > > kind of dukkha here that I think is unnecessary. > > > Something seems to be > > > missing. > > > > May I ask what you mean by dukkha? > > > > > > Yes, "real life". Yes, "study, study, study". > > > > > > But how about a bit more practice like there was > > > only 5 minutes or less left > > > for each of us to be alive? > > > > May I also know what you mean by practice? Can we tell > > when another is practising? > > > > > > Something is not right here. There is a lot of > > > clinging and grasping I see > > > in the writing. > > > > > > Life is too short and precious. If we cannot apply > > > this Dhamma and not just > > > relieve dukkha but release ourselves and others > > > (including non-sentient > > > beings) then what is the point? > > > > Isn't there a lot of clinging and grasping for us all, > > all day long anyway? Is the aim really to 'relieve > > dukkha'? Perhaps I should also ask what you mean by > > 'apply Dhamma' and how we release ourselves and > > OTHERS? > > > > Ven Sir, I'm just trying to understand your comments > > which are a little perplexing to me. I would > > appreciate a brief elaboration. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Sarah > > > 4427 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thank you Dear Ven Dhammapiyo, Please have a good trip to the States and may I wish you well with your health problems. Best regards, Sarah 4428 From: Howard Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness Hi Alex, Des, Sarah, and all - In a message dated 3/28/01 1:27:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, Alex T writes: > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Dear Alex & Des, > > > > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm > > not quite sure what you mean by observing > > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at > > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'? > > Dear Sarah, > > Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally: > ---------- > Dear friends, > > From: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm > > in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says: > > "When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye > consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness' > whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen > after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed > away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing > consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye > consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was > momentary." > > The part that interests me the most is the last two statements. What > does the author mean by "observing consciousness"? > > Thank you, > Alex Tran > --------- > Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same > question in DSG. > > Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he > said "consciousness". The problem is that each citta has its own > object. That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta. > Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the > previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same. If we say > that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part > of it, which are the common conditions between the two. > > The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is > that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in > this world: observe the common conditions. Gradually, with more > panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta. > > I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my > question clearly. > > With Metta, > Alex Tran > > ================================ I suppose that what might be going on is a rapid succession of cittas, first a visual discernment (vi~n~nana), second a subsequent visual (or other than visual) discernment, and then a third, mental discernment which recalls the previous two discernments and recognizes that object of the second discernment is different from the object of the first. Does this make any sense? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4429 From: Howard Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 6:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dogma or experience? Hi, Amara - In a message dated 3/28/01 1:59:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, Amara writes: > Dear Howard, > > I'm glad I caught this message just as I was signing off, tomorrow I > am off on another trip and won't be back til very late if at all. But > I will get the exact reference for you when I get back. About the > Abhidhamma's authenticity if you searched our group's achives you will > find some discussions on that also. > > > > (2) Didn't the Buddha himself say not to assume the truth of > a matter > > solely on the basis of authority? The Buddha also spoke of Mt. Meru > being at > > the center of the universe. The Buddha said that. So, it is to be > accepted as > > true? > > He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a > 'Sineru' if I remember correctly. But if you looked at a galaxy from > the side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill > shaped? Of course he never said to believe even what he taught > without proving it first, which is the crux for us, did what he teach > about seeing and visible object true at this moment? Hearing and > sound? Bodysense and 'hardness' or 'motion' at the tip of our > fingers? He also said there are things experienced only through the > mind, for example the subtle rupa. And things one should not ponder > because it could never bring wisdom in the Buddhist sense and > preoccupation with it without awareness of the present does not > condone to bhavana. But I personally have never seen anyone able to > prove anything he taught was wrong, allowing for mistranslation and > such, of course. > > > > (3) Do you really think that folks developed telescopes > "because" the > > Buddha spoke of other worlds? > > > Did I say that? Although according to some sources people like > Einstein said, if there is a religion that goes with science it is > Buddhism. I simply meant to say that he KNEW even without teliscopes > that there are other planetary systems all through the universe. > > > > > I do think that it is possible to rely a bit too strongly on > authority > > and scripture. The Buddha never said to *believe*. He presented a > program for > > release from suffering, and he invited us to check it out for > ourselves. The > > more we follow that program, I believe, the greater will our > confidence > > increase that, indeed, the Buddhamagga truly is the way to > liberation. > > > I agree entirely. But the more you realize how deep the dhamma is, > how exact and true it is, one is more and more amazed at his wisdom > and the more confidence one has that the rest must be true too, unlike > any other sciences where a theory is continually being revised, > annotated and corrected and even annulled by more recent ones. > Nothing like that has happened to his teachings for over 2500+ years, > and doesn't look likely to happen, especially the parts he teaches us > about ourselves. > > Amara > ================================== This is a really good reply, fair and balanced, to a post of mine that was a bit of a challenge to you. Excellent! I particularly think that your pointing out "He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a 'Sineru' if I remember correctly. But if you looked at a galaxy from the side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill shaped? " is neat!! It may be a bit of a stretch - I don't know - but it is *very* clever and very interesting! Definitely food for thought! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4430 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:14am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Thanks a lot Robert. metta, des >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana >Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:59:36 -0800 (PST) > >dear Teng, >I sent Realities and Concepts today to both you and Des. >It is somewhat terse so doesn't give all the details we would >like but still clarifies a great deal. Pannatti can be a >condition - there is no doubt about this, but there are >differences in the way it conditions (compared to paramattha >dhamma). The Patthana has something about this too. >I have discussed this at times with Acharn Sujin and find her >explanations very helpful and directly related to how we >experience dhammas now. >And of course I look forward very much to any writing and >translation you do on the topic. >robert 4431 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness Dear Alex, Howard, Des, Mike and all the others who've been participating in this long thread, Alex, I was aware that somehow we were all missing something in our attempts to give detailed responses to you and Mike (with details of sense and mind door processes which you are already familiar with) and think this was partly because we didn't have the original quote you were referring to, which is part and parcel of the question..yes/no? Anyway, now the questions seem clearer to me, but I think I need to look at the passage in this case first. Now I know nothing about the writer or rest of the chapter. My comments are just based on the extract and your questions only. Because we've been in a few circles here, I hope no one will take any offence if I'm rather direct this time: --- Alex T wrote: > > From: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm > > in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a > paragraph that says: > > "When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' > there arises 'eye > consciousness'. all agreed Yogis are advised to observe the > 'eye consciousness' > whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. This sounds like thinking with an idea of self that can observe > It will be seen > after observation that the same eye consciousness > has already passed > away or disappeared when it was observed by the > observing > consciousness. This is thinking, not sati (awareness). It will be obvious to the observer > that the eye > consciousness was no more to be found because its > arising was > momentary." It's only obvious at a conceptual level and then of course there is no observer. Sati is aware and panna understands. > > The part that interests me the most is the last two > statements. What > does the author mean by "observing consciousness"? The writer might wish it to mean panna, but it sounds just like thinking to me. > > Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he > > said "consciousness". The problem is that each > citta has its own > object. That's why I don't know how we can have an > observing citta. You're right. > Of course, the subsequent citta has some common > conditions with the > previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the > same. If we say > that we can observe the previous one, then we only > can observe part > of it, which are the common conditions between the > two. yes, this is just thinking...no we to observe or do anything. > > The only more or less confusing answer I can give > to myself is > that since we are living in the world of concepts, > do your best in > this world: observe the common conditions. > Gradually, with more > panna developed, we may advance to more subtle > aspects of citta. Alex, may I say that I think the quote is somewhat confusing and there seems to be an idea of self doing the observing. It's true that we live in the world of concepts, but it's the task of panna to understand the realities and to know that while thinking is real, the concepts thought about are not. It's not a matter of thinking and thinking about the arising and falling away of seeing (eye consciousness) or thinking about the common conditions, but more a matter of developing understanding (or rather ofunderstanding developing) to know the characteristic or nature or sabhava of seeing at this moment. If there is no understanding of seeing, of sati or of panna, how can there be deeper and higher levels of understanding? Ther has been a lot of discussion recently about whether it's useful to study and consider the details. The danger of not considering the details at all, is that it is easy to imagine that the observer is attaining levels of realization when really it may all just be thinking. Alex, it seems to me that your inital concerns about what was said were well-founded. I sincerely apologise if unwittingly I have stepped on any toes here. I haven't followed the link and my response is based just on what I read here. Very best wishes, Sarah 4432 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:52pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana My pleasure Des and thanks for the interest, robert --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > Thanks a lot Robert. > > metta, > des > > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > >> > > >dear Teng, > >I sent Realities and Concepts today to both you and Des. > >It is somewhat terse so doesn't give all the details we would > >like but still clarifies a great deal 4433 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:38pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana All, before I start, a simple glossary is now on the files page to give a little quick relief to the Pali challenged (many thanks, Kom): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm Dear Teng, Kom & Rob, --- teng kee ong wrote: > > There should be two english translation (or for > other languages too)for pannatti.The vijjamana > pannatti(sabhava-with individual > essence-khandha,sacca,dhatu,ayatana,indriya and > asankhata pannatti)as appellation while the > avijjamana pannatti (asabhava-without individual > essence)as concept.But I still can't decide which > should the word be used for both kinds combine like > tevijja,chalabhinna etc(a combination of avijjamana > and vijjamanapannatti). Teng Kee, I agree that one word concept hardly gives justice to pannatti and certainly doesn't give any indication without more detail of the complexities and varieties of concepts that are used ...this is the same problem we have with most translations of pali terms however (eg citta, sanna) and it is only the development of panna (understanding) that can ppreciate the true meanings. Even pali speakers in the Buddha's time could not understand the meaning without panna. > I can't do anything if the other members in this > list for still having the wrong view that pannatti > are all without individual essence.See puggala > pannatti text for khandhapannatti ,sacca pannatti > etc. > From Teng Kee > Well if we have wrong views, we look forward to having them corrected! Now I read through Puggala pannatti (Human Types) without finding anything of relevance. Teng, your references are rather confusing, if I may say so!!! (I'm still waiting for that one in the Soma Satipatthana Sutta which I couldn't find!;-)). Anway, while I was looking for another reference, I did find Nanamoli's commentary and his own notes on pannatti in Vis, ch V111, note 11 which are very detailed and helpful. Many of the references are to notes from the COMMENTARY to Puggala Pannatti, so now I know where I went wrong anyway - it's like a jigsaw puzzle! All the different kinds of pannatti which Kom and Rob referred to are mentioned here in detail and the kinds you have referred to as well, i.e concepts of the 'existent and non-existent' and all the shades between. In fact there is a lot more detail here and it's really very interesting in itself. As we have discussed, many kinds refer to paramattha dhammas and tajja-pannatti even refers 'to the individual essence of a given dhamma e.g. 'earth', 'fire', 'hardness', 'heat'.' Some refer to the 'formed' (sankhata-pannatti) and asankhata-pannatti (concept of the unformed) refers to nibbana. It makes the 'unformed dhamma known' and in this sense is referred to as an 'existent concept'. 'All this shows that the word pannatti carries the meanings of either appellation or concept or both together, and that no English word quite corresponds.' However, a concept is 'a dhamma without individual essence (asabhava -dhamma)' note 12. I think the confusion lies in the fact that in pali concepts perhaps can be referred to as sabhava or asabhava pannatti or sankhata or asankhata pannatti. However, it is not the concepts themselves that are with/without essence or are conditioned/unconditioned, but the 'objects' they are pointing at. This may be a language issue, Teng, I'm not sure. When you talk about 'uncondition and condition pannatti' or even about pannatti with sabhava, maybe we misunderstand you to be referring to the concept itself rather than what it represents. Does this clarify at all? Teng, are you going to join us in Bkk? You certainly provide the MOST challenging posts on the list!! Regards, Sarah 4434 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dogma or experience? Dear Erik and Howard, You raise some good points. Erik, you may not know that Robert had an interesting discussion on this topic which is contained in a single post in the 'useful posts' under 'abhidhamma.....': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm The proof of the Teachings is in the testing and understanding, but these doubts about the origins can be a sticking point for some, I know. Sarah --- Erik wrote: > --- Howard wrote: > > But there isn't strong > > evidence that the Abhidhamma came from the Buddha > in the same sense > that the > > other two pitaka did. > > I don't subscribe to the idea the historical > Shakyamuni Buddha > uttered the words found in the Abhidhamma based on > what I've read of > its history, though it has become quite clear to me > that nearly > everything in the Abhidhamma has a direct support > from the suttas. On > that note, I have no idea if the historical > Shakyamuni actually spoke > the words in the Suttas. The only "proof" to me is > in their ability > to help bring about liberation from suffering. > > So to me it hardly matters if the historical > Shakyamuni actually > taught Abhidhamma. What matters to me is how > beneficial understanding > these things is to the goal. It has obviously served > many people well > and will continue to do so. Certainly in terms of a > system for > clearly explaining the Dhamma, Abhidhamma is hard to > beat. 4435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana Dear Herman, I'm very impressed by your keen interest and consideration of dhamma and particularly of abhidhamma, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Howard, > > Speaking of which, how would the concept of "should" > or "must" (as in a > moral imperative) be translated into the syntax of > not-self? > > I often wonder what is meant when it is written, for > example : "you should > study the dhamma" . Who or what is being addressed? Herman, sometimes we may say to a child 'share your sweets' or 'don't touch the cooker' when really we mean 'generosity is kusala and I'd like to encourage you to share in order to develop good qualities' or 'please realise that the cooker is hot and if you touch it you'll burn yourself which will be a condition for akusala vipaka'..yes? So when we say 'you should study the dhamma' it will depend on the speaker's understanding what is meant. What I understand the Buddha to mean here would be 'hear, read, consider what I have said in order for right understanding and the other factors of the eightfold path to do their jobs. Furthermore, realise there are 2 kinds of study- intellectual and direct study of characteristics. I'm not talking about book study here, but the kind of study that leads to the eradication of defilements. Remember it's not self!' If the Buddha says 'You must strive' or 'You should make an effort' or 'You should be mindful', we need to understand these comments (or translations) in the light of the understanding gained from the abhidhamma too. Listeners in the Buddha's time understood that all relities are not self, that there is no self to strive and that effort is a conditioned mental factor arising under the right conditions. So the meaning depends on the understanding with which the Teachings are read. Rob made the point that he recently re-read the whole of the Visuddhimagga and how different it was from when he read it more than 10yrs ago. What the Buddha said hadn't changed. This is rather 'wordy' Herman, but I thought it was a good question. I forget how it relates to the 'cognizing nibbana' thread you referred to, but you're welcome to remind me of course! Keep up your useful contributions, Sarah > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard > Date: Wednesday, 28 March 2001 3:40 > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > > > >Hi, Herman - > > > >In a message dated 3/27/01 2:16:23 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > >Herman H writes: > > > > > >> Kom, > >> > >> I know the question was not directed to me, but I > couldn't resist the > >> temptation to put in my two bits worth. :-) > >> > >> > >> There is no tree and there is no forest without > nama/rupa. There is rupa > >> without nama/rupa. but rupa does not know itself > or anything else for > that > >> matter ( :-) ). I am sure there is rupa falling > over all over the place > all > >> the time, but the forms this takes, and the > qualities this has, are > shaped > >> by nama/rupa. What something would be without it > being known is ......... > >> unknowable. > >> > >> Kind Regards > >> > >> > >> Herman > >> > >================================ > >This is almost exactly my position as well. Your > last sentence, "What > >something would be without it being known is > ......... unknowable.," is > >quintessential phenomenalism! > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > > >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: > A star at dawn, a bubble > >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer > cloud, a flickering lamp, a > >phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > 4436 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Human State Hi, Wyn, I think the problem here is that it is just thinking about a 'story'. If there are conditions to have a child now, it will happen anyway. What we learn about from the Buddha's Teachings is what life consists of at this moment. Is there a living being near us in need? Is there compassion when we try to relieve the suffering? Does compassion last or just appear for a moment only, to be replaced by ignorance and sadness? Compassion is a mental state that arises just for a moment. What we consider to be an act of compassion consists of many different realities, good and bad with moments of seeing and hearing in between. I'm not at all sure we can talk about compassion for a being that doesn't exist. I'm not sure if this helps, Wyn! Please let me know what you think about this thinking and why you raised the question. Sorry for the delay. Best regards, Sarah - <> wrote: > Hi, > > > The Buddha said that the human state is the best (os > is it ONLY??) > state for achieving enlightenment (do you have the > Sutta reference > handy?) > > No sex, no babies, no human state. In this sense, > isn't having > children an act of compassion to all living beings? 4437 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:12pm Subject: Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, sukin, ..? Venerable Dhammapiyo has very kindly offered to distribute copies of realities and concepts on his tour of the states. I am almost out of stock and was wondering if anyone could send a package (about 40?) . I forget the email address of the person at the foundation who handles posting of books now. BTW i received the tapes - thank you sarah. Kom - if they have a big supply at the teemple in san francisco maybe they could be sent from there. Seamail is Ok as ven. D. will be there for several months. I have his contact address in America so just write to me off line and I will send it. robert 4438 From: teng kee ong Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:31pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cognize nibbana > > Well if we have wrong views, we look forward to having > them corrected! Now I read through Puggala pannatti > (Human Types) without finding anything of relevance. > Teng, your references are rather confusing, if I may > say so!!! (I'm still waiting for that one in the Soma > Satipatthana Sutta which I couldn't find!;-)). > > Anway, while I was looking for another reference, I > did find Nanamoli's commentary and his own notes on > pannatti in Vis, ch V111, note 11 which are very > detailed and helpful. Many of the references are to > notes from the COMMENTARY to Puggala Pannatti, so now > I know where I went wrong anyway - it's like a jigsaw > puzzle! > > All the different kinds of pannatti which Kom and Rob > referred to are mentioned here in detail and the kinds > you have referred to as well, i.e concepts of the > 'existent and non-existent' and all the shades > between. In fact there is a lot more detail here and > it's really very interesting in itself. As we have > discussed, many kinds refer to paramattha dhammas and > tajja-pannatti even refers 'to the individual essence > of a given dhamma e.g. 'earth', 'fire', 'hardness', > 'heat'.' Some refer to the 'formed' > (sankhata-pannatti) and asankhata-pannatti (concept of > the unformed) refers to nibbana. It makes the > 'unformed dhamma known' and in this sense is referred > to as an 'existent concept'. 'All this shows that the > word pannatti carries the meanings of either > appellation or concept or both together, and that no > English word quite corresponds.' > > However, a concept is 'a dhamma without individual > essence (asabhava -dhamma)' note 12. > > I think the confusion lies in the fact that in pali > concepts perhaps can be referred to as sabhava or > asabhava pannatti or sankhata or asankhata pannatti. > However, it is not the concepts themselves that are > with/without essence or are conditioned/unconditioned, > but the 'objects' they are pointing at. This may be a > language issue, Teng, I'm not sure. When you talk > about 'uncondition and condition pannatti' or even > about pannatti with sabhava, maybe we misunderstand > you to be referring to the concept itself rather than > what it represents. > > Does this clarify at all? > > Teng, are you going to join us in Bkk? > > You certainly provide the MOST challenging posts on > the list!! > > Regards, > Sarah > Dear Sarah, What edition of soma translation of satipatthana sutta you are having?Maybe you are having an edtion simply without com. and sub com but only plain text.Try again read the complete text in accesstoinsight.org--nidana part.It is only in com and sub com but not in text at all. I am not going to have dhamma talk with anyone because I find that I cannot help anyone and no one can help too.I am only pray that I can find a chance to read those lost texts like anguttara old tika ,suttanipata tika,theragatha-therigatha tika,visuddhimagga ganthipada etc during my trip to Laos and chieng Mai. Best Wishes From Teng Kee > > > -- 4439 From: Alex T Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: Back To Observing Consciousness --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Alex, Howard, Des, Mike and all the others who've > been participating in this long thread, > > Alex, I was aware that somehow we were all missing > something in our attempts to give detailed responses > to you and Mike (with details of sense and mind door > processes which you are already familiar with) and > think this was partly because we didn't have the > original quote you were referring to, which is part > and parcel of the question..yes/no? Dear Sarah, I see how important the quote is. I'll be more considerate in the future. Thank you for your answer. With appreciation, Alex 4440 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, sukin, ..? And just a note to add to Robert's kind message: I would be glad if anyone who is willing to donate any other Dhamma books would do so. Ask Robert for the contact address off list, please. Also, if you know of organizations beside the one in Taiwan who distribute books, please let me know! I am carrying a lot back with me, but there are many people who have requested books. Also, I would like to distribute books for youth centers for troubled youths, and there is a great need for them in prisons. Please help if you can! Metta, Bhante D. P.S. If anyone is interested in helping with any of Buddhadharma International Foundation's projects or would like us to help you with something you would like to do, please let me know. Back up email addresses are: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031171056164024114164134058066051209171188199 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031171056164024114187078230211009053176152006048067 I also use their messengers and ICQ (8863950). When I get to the US and Canada, anyone can contact me quickly that way or via the Foundation (http://www.buddhadharma.org/) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 2:42 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, sukin, ..? > > Venerable Dhammapiyo has very kindly offered to distribute > copies of realities and concepts on his tour of the states. I am > almost out of stock and was wondering if anyone could send a > package (about 40?) . I forget the email address of the person > at the foundation who handles posting of books now. BTW i > received the tapes - thank you sarah. > Kom - if they have a big supply at the teemple in san francisco > maybe they could be sent from there. > Seamail is Ok as ven. D. will be there for several months. > I have his contact address in America so just write to me off > line and I will send it. > robert > > > 4441 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness "A truly great man never puts away the simplicity of a child. " Chinese Proverb with metta, des >From: Alex T >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness >Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:25:09 -0000 > >--- Sarah Procter Abbott >wrote: > > Dear Alex & Des, > > > > Alex, I have to say that after all the discussion, I'm > > not quite sure what you mean by observing > > consciousness. (I probably missed something vital at > > the start). Do you just mean 'citta'? > >Dear Sarah, > > Last week, I posted the below message in another list originally: >---------- >Dear friends, > > From: >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tdaing1.htm > >in Chapter 3 (Khanda Paticcasamuppada), there's a paragraph that says: > >"When there is impact of 'eye' and 'visible object' there arises 'eye >consciousness'. Yogis are advised to observe the 'eye consciousness' >whether it still remains, passes away, or vanishes. It will be seen >after observation that the same eye consciousness has already passed >away or disappeared when it was observed by the observing >consciousness. It will be obvious to the observer that the eye >consciousness was no more to be found because its arising was >momentary." > >The part that interests me the most is the last two statements. What >does the author mean by "observing consciousness"? > >Thank you, >Alex Tran >--------- > Then, one of our friends here encouraged me to ask the same >question in DSG. > > Like you, I guess the authors meant citta when he >said "consciousness". The problem is that each citta has its own >object. That's why I don't know how we can have an observing citta. >Of course, the subsequent citta has some common conditions with the >previous one, but still, the two cittas are not the same. If we say >that we can observe the previous one, then we only can observe part >of it, which are the common conditions between the two. > > The only more or less confusing answer I can give to myself is >that since we are living in the world of concepts, do your best in >this world: observe the common conditions. Gradually, with more >panna developed, we may advance to more subtle aspects of citta. > > I understand that I'm not doing a very good job in stating my >question clearly. > >With Metta, >Alex Tran > > > > > 4442 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: Dogma or experience? > I particularly think that your > pointing out "He not only said that but he also said that each universe had a > 'Sineru' if I remember correctly. But if you looked at a galaxy from the > side doesn't it look like it has a bulge in the middle, maybe hill shaped? " > is neat!! It may be a bit of a stretch - I don't know - but it is *very* > clever and very interesting! Definitely food for thought! :-) Dear Howard, Bon appetit, then, the Tipitaka is full of treats like this!!! I should still keep in mind that the main course is the study of the present realities as they truly are, the real 'food' for panna, though! Happy studying, Anumodana, Amara 4443 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 0:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience? In Buddhism: One studies >>>>> practices >>>>> understands. To say that a virus does not exist just because one can't see with the naked eyes does not mean that one is correct. What is said in the dharma can't be seen readily, but can be experienced or understood, only if one practices. Short of practice, we can only say till we turn blue. A moment of consciousness [citta + cetasika + rupa] occurs in one trillionth of a second [1/ 10 to the power of 12]. That it why, practically speaking, we don't and can't live in the present. What we think of as present is already past. In the same way, what we speak of as the truth now, can no longer be true later [ as the conditions change ]. Therefore the best way to "see" the truth is to experience it at that moment as it happens, but not to say it. [Buddha says: he who sees dharma, sees me. ] I have always said it as a joke that, once I stop saying, then I will know, I am enlightened. May we all be enlightened. metta, des >From: Herman >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience? >Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:34:32 -0000 > >Hi all, > >I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise in sequence, one >after the other. I wonder whether this is being said because it has >been experienced, or whether it has been read and recycled as >experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in sequence, what is the >locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the locus of Nama, if >any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? How many cittas >arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent case in UK where >one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the other comes to >mind) > > >Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last 17 times longer >than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it because it has been >experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate reality (without >references to whoever experienced this)? > >It seems to me that either there is counting or experiencing. How can >it be a quality of a citta that it is x times longer, shorter , >whatever , than another citta which cannot be being referenced at the >same time, given that there is only ever one citta? > >Any insights would be appreciated. > >Kind Regards > > >Herman > > 4444 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:47am Subject: Re: Books for USA - kom, amara, shin, *Please ignore any duplication of this message.* > I would be glad if anyone who is willing to donate any other Dhamma books > would do so. Ask Robert for the contact address off list, please. Also, if > you know of organizations beside the one in Taiwan who distribute books, > please let me know! > > I am carrying a lot back with me, but there are many people who have > requested books. Also, I would like to distribute books for youth centers > for troubled youths, and there is a great need for them in prisons. Please > help if you can! Venerable sir, Anumodana in your great kusala cetana to perform this greatest of dana, dhamma dana, I am sure many of us will join in, I will ask the Sat. EDG to help select some books tomorrow to send you. Unfortunately the English selection is not so large, and some books are too technical for the general audience, but there is at least one that is suitable for all audiences and available in large quantity, Nina's recently published 'Letters from Nina' which would be good for readers of any level of understanding. You can find the same book in the website, intermediate section. Our sponsor at the website is putting together a package for you and will send it probably on Monday. May I ask when you are leaving so that they may mail it in time? Perhaps you could send me the address also, on or off list, thank you very much in advance. Again, anumodana, Amara 4446 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 3:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness Des, > "A truly great man never puts away the simplicity of > a child. " > Chinese Proverb Interesting. But do you see this as having any truth to it? In Dhamma terms, the 'truly great' are those who have understood the teachings at the deepest level and penetrated the true characteristic of reality, tasks which the Buddha described as being exceedingly difficult. Jon 4447 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:07pm Subject: Quiz Dear friends, We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked about the khandha, among other things. As we know, nama and rupa are classified into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma that we can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa. These can be divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned realities that arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), sanna (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief of which is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and vinnana (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of clinging or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: What khandha are not objects of clinging? Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone find the answer, OK? We will have to find something for a prize to the correct answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? Happy pondering, all! Amara 4448 From: Erik Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:21pm Subject: Re: Quiz --- "Amara" wrote: > What khandha are not objects of clinging? I have no idea what the Tipitaka says on this, but I'd guess that since arahats have eradicated clinging that "their" khandas are not objects of clinging. 4449 From: selamat Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz Dear Amara, Khandha-VIMUTTI is not the object of clinging and we can experience in samsara if we realize for the first moment as a Sotapana. metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Amara Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:07 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz > Dear friends, > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked about the > khandha, among other things. As we know, nama and rupa are classified > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma that we > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa. These can be > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned realities that > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), sanna > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief of which > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and vinnana > (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of clinging > or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone find the > answer, OK? We will have to find something for a prize to the correct > answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? > > Happy pondering, all! > > Amara > 4450 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:44pm Subject: Re: Quiz --- Erik wrote: > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > I have no idea what the Tipitaka says on this, but I'd guess that > since arahats have eradicated clinging that "their" khandas are not > objects of clinging. Dear Erik, Absolutely! But we are talking about those who have not experienced nibbana, here... Great reasoning, though!!! Amara 4451 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 10:49pm Subject: Re: Quiz Dear Selamat, You are certainly right, of course, but what about before we reach that point? Which Khandha are not objects of clinging even now? Have fun, Amara > Dear Amara, > > Khandha-VIMUTTI is not the object of clinging and we can experience in > samsara if we realize for the first moment as a Sotapana. > > metta, > selamat rodjali > 4452 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz Ok, I'll take a punt. Could it be khanda that we have no experience of? Example: the khanda of some being, somewhere that I don't know of (e.g. an insect somewhere in Africa). --- Amara wrote: > Dear friends, > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked > about the > khandha, among other things. As we know, nama and rupa are > classified > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma > that we > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa. These > can be > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned > realities that > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), > sanna > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief > of which > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and > vinnana > (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of > clinging > or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone > find the > answer, OK? We will have to find something for a prize to the > correct > answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? > > Happy pondering, all! > > Amara > 4453 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:21pm Subject: Re: Quiz Dear Rob, Bravo!!! The idea is quite accurate; any khandha, not really the rupa since all the seven rupa of the respective dvara can be objects of clinging, but generally all the cetasika and citta that had never arisen, such as the citta of the brahma bhumi or any citta we have never experienced cannot be objects of lobha. It must be admitted we thought it was a trick question until KS gave the answer, the whole almost 20 of us today! Great brainwork, Rob!!! Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Ok, I'll take a punt. Could it be khanda that we have no > experience of? Example: the khanda of some being, somewhere that > I don't know of (e.g. an insect somewhere in Africa). > --- Amara wrote: > > Dear friends, > > > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked > > about the > > khandha, among other things. As we know, nama and rupa are > > classified > > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma > > that we > > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa. These > > can be > > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned > > realities that > > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), > > sanna > > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief > > of which > > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and > > vinnana > > (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of > > clinging > > or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: > > > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone > > find the > > answer, OK? We will have to find something for a prize to the > > correct > > answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? > > > > Happy pondering, all! > > > > Amara > > 4454 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Thanks Amara, What about the khandas of people we see everyday: my children or students? Since I don't experience directly the cittas or cetasikas that they experience I suppose those are not objects of clinging too? robert --- Amara wrote: > > Dear Rob, > > Bravo!!! The idea is quite accurate; any khandha, not really > the rupa > since all the seven rupa of the respective dvara can be > objects of > clinging, but generally all the cetasika and citta that had > never > arisen, such as the citta of the brahma bhumi or any citta we > have > never experienced cannot be objects of lobha. > > It must be admitted we thought it was a trick question until > KS gave > the answer, the whole almost 20 of us today! Great brainwork, > Rob!!! > > Amara > 4455 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:48pm Subject: Re: Quiz Dear Rob, Which 'Khandha' of the five do you see? Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Thanks Amara, > What about the khandas of people we see everyday: my children or > students? Since I don't experience directly the cittas or > cetasikas that they experience I suppose those are not objects > of clinging too? > > robert > --- Amara wrote: > > > > Dear Rob, > > > > Bravo!!! The idea is quite accurate; any khandha, not really > > the rupa > > since all the seven rupa of the respective dvara can be > > objects of > > clinging, but generally all the cetasika and citta that had > > never > > arisen, such as the citta of the brahma bhumi or any citta we > > have > > never experienced cannot be objects of lobha. > > > > It must be admitted we thought it was a trick question until > > KS gave > > the answer, the whole almost 20 of us today! Great brainwork, > > Rob!!! > > > > Amara > > > > 4456 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 2:23am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz How about dosa? Can dosa-related namas be objects of lobha? kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:07 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz > > > Dear friends, > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where > we talked about the > khandha, among other things. As we know, nama > and rupa are classified > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three > paramatthadhamma that we > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and > rupa. These can be > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are > conditioned realities that > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana > (emotions), sanna > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 > cetasika, the chief of which > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana > cetasika), and vinnana > (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' > or object of clinging > or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and > helping anyone find the > answer, OK? We will have to find something for a > prize to the correct > answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? > > Happy pondering, all! > > Amara > 4457 From: Erik Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 5:20am Subject: Lamps Unto Ourselves? Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine: "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more. But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is very important. Any help is most welcome." Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? Thanks, Erik 4458 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 9:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves? Dear Erik, The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents two etymologically distinct words. One has the meaning of 'lamp' (Skt. diipa) and the other one has the meaning of 'island' (Skt. dviipa). The commentary (a.t.thakathaa) confirms 'island' while 'lamp' is simply a mistranslation in the passage. The commentary reading is: attadiipaa ti mahaasamuddagata.m diipa.m viya attaana.m diipa.m pati.t.tha.m katvaa viharatha. 'attadiipa': after making yourself an island (as) support like an island situated in the great ocean, abide. (a rough literal translation) 'Island' is a metaphor for 'support' (pati.t.thaa). I'm not familiar with what type of compound 'attadiipaa' really is and it looks quite peculiar to me. The word seems to be referring to the individuals addressed and is hard to translate literally. The subcommentary (.tiikaa) also seems to be interpreting 'atta' (?oneself) in a way not familiar to me. There is a shift from atta to dhamma in the second phrasing (dhammadiipa . . .) as if atta and dhamma were interchangeable (it's all very unclear to me). Best wishes, Jim >Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here >might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine: > >"My question is about the translation of a phrase from the >Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp >of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says >that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa >viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making >yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and >not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more. >But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is >very important. Any help is most welcome." > >Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended >meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as >far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? > >Thanks, >Erik 4459 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 9:47am Subject: Re: Quiz What do you think? Can anything that one has experienced not be the object of lobha, except perhaps moha, since I don't believe anyone could ever want to be stupid or to not know... Otherwise, haven't you ever met people who liked to pick quarrels, grumble all the time or talk only about malicious gossip, never of mudita? Amara --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > How about dosa? Can dosa-related namas be objects of lobha? > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amara > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:07 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where > > we talked about the > > khandha, among other things. As we know, nama > > and rupa are classified > > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three > > paramatthadhamma that we > > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and > > rupa. These can be > > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are > > conditioned realities that > > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana > > (emotions), sanna > > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 > > cetasika, the chief of which > > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana > > cetasika), and vinnana > > (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' > > or object of clinging > > or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: > > > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and > > helping anyone find the > > answer, OK? We will have to find something for a > > prize to the correct > > answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? > > > > Happy pondering, all! > > > > Amara > > 4460 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 9:55am Subject: Re: Lamps Unto Ourselves? --- "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Erik, > > The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents two > etymologically distinct words. One has the meaning of 'lamp' (Skt. diipa) > and the other one has the meaning of 'island' (Skt. dviipa). The commentary > (a.t.thakathaa) confirms 'island' while 'lamp' is simply a mistranslation in > the passage. The commentary reading is: > > attadiipaa ti mahaasamuddagata.m diipa.m viya attaana.m diipa.m pati.t.tha.m > katvaa viharatha. > > 'attadiipa': after making yourself an island (as) support like an island > situated in the great ocean, abide. (a rough literal translation) > > 'Island' is a metaphor for 'support' (pati.t.thaa). I'm not familiar with > what type of compound 'attadiipaa' really is and it looks quite peculiar to > me. The word seems to be referring to the individuals addressed and is hard > to translate literally. The subcommentary (.tiikaa) also seems to be > interpreting 'atta' (?oneself) in a way not familiar to me. There is a shift > from atta to dhamma in the second phrasing (dhammadiipa . . .) as if atta > and dhamma were interchangeable (it's all very unclear to me). > > Best wishes, > Jim Dear Jim and Erik, Jim, it's great to see you on the list! I am about to have difficulty contributing from Monday on, myself, through the entire month, but will try to check in from time to time. About the translation may I suggest that he was telling us to rely on ourselves and the dhamma he had established instead of some teacher after he is gone? Just a suggestion, Amara > >Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here > >might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine: > > > >"My question is about the translation of a phrase from the > >Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp > >of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says > >that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa > >viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making > >yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and > >not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more. > >But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is > >very important. Any help is most welcome." > > > >Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended > >meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as > >far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? > > > >Thanks, > >Erik 4461 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 10:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves? dear Erik, B. Bodhi translates this phrase where it is duplicated in the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) as "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge, dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, with no other refuge" As Amara noted this is a encouragement not to take other teachers but to rely on the Dhamma as laid out by the Buddha. It carries on: "And how Ananda does a bhikkhu dwell with himself as an island..with no other refuge, dwell with the Dhamma as an island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge. Here Ananda a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body..feelings in feelings..mind in mind...phenomena in phenomena" Thus a summary of satipatthana. robert --- Erik wrote: > > Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around > here > might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine: > > "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the > Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a > lamp > of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola > Rahula says > that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa > viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell > making > yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge > and > not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much > more. > But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it > is > very important. Any help is most welcome." > > Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the > intended > meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this > mean as > far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? > > Thanks, > Erik > 4462 From: Num Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 5:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz Hi Kom, I think some people like to be angry. Some people learn that if they express their anger at time they can get what they want and can get it their ways easier. Not everyone see the negative consequences of dosa, I think. Hi K.Amara, So I think Rob has already had a jackpot for a quiz show. What's a relief for me :) Thanks Rob. RGD Moha, I think one can have lobha in moha as well, like lobha in a wrong view. Thanks for a brainy exercise. Num 4463 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:13am Subject: Re: Quiz RGD Moha, I think one can have lobha in moha as well, > like lobha in a wrong view. Dear K. Num I think we must distinguish between moha annd ditthi, the former being ignorance and the latter wrong view. Do you really think people could enjoy being stupid?!? That's a little beyond me! Amara 4464 From: Num Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 6:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Hi K.Amara, Thanks for your point and clarification. I am looking at Kom's cetasika table. Dhiti cetasika always arises with lobha and moha cetasika. 4 lobha-mula-citta-dhiti-vippayutta have only moha and lobha cetasika. I don't know, can someone enjoy being stupid? Good question, may be not. I have to think about it more. Another brainy exercise :) My pleasure to learn and study dhamma. A plus tard, Num 4465 From: selamat Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 1:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear Amara, It's ok. None. metta, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: Amara Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:49 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz > > Dear Selamat, > > You are certainly right, of course, but what about before we reach > that point? Which Khandha are not objects of clinging even now? > > Have fun, > > Amara > > > > Dear Amara, > > > > Khandha-VIMUTTI is not the object of clinging and we can experience > in > > samsara if we realize for the first moment as a Sotapana. > > > > metta, > > selamat rodjali > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Amara > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 9:07 PM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Quiz > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > We had a fun session at the Sat ED today, where we talked about > the > > > khandha, among other things. As we know, nama and rupa are > classified > > > into the four paramatthadhamma, and the three paramatthadhamma > that we > > > can experience in samsara are citta, cetasika and rupa. These can > be > > > divided into 5 groups of khandha that are conditioned realities > that > > > arise and fall away at each instant: rupa, vedana (emotions), > sanna > > > (memory), sankhara (the rest of the 52-2 cetasika, the chief of > which > > > is the 'abhisankhara' which intends the cetana cetasika), and > vinnana > > > (citta). All five khandha are 'upadana khandha' or object of > clinging > > > or lobha. After detailed explanation KS asked us: > > > > > > What khandha are not objects of clinging? > > > > > > Betty, Sukin, Shin and Ivan, no favoritism and helping anyone find > the > > > answer, OK? We will have to find something for a prize to the > correct > > > answer!!! K. Num, what do you think? > > > > > > Happy pondering, all! > > > > > > Amara > > > 4466 From: selamat Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves? Dear Erik, We depend on our actions in the Path. If we practise the Path we will be protected by our wholesome actions, not the Buddhas (as persons), not the Dhamma (as teachings) and the Sangha (as persons). metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 4:20 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves? > > Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around here > might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine: > > "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the > Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a lamp > of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola Rahula says > that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa > viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell making > yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge and > not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much more. > But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it is > very important. Any help is most welcome." > > Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the intended > meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this mean as > far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? > > Thanks, > Erik > 4467 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 2:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear K. Amara and Num, It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have lobha towards dosa. I always thought that "liking" to be angry is more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa) rather than lobha. I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta. It's unclear to me if this is equivalent to what we have been discussing or not. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 5:48 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz > > > > What do you think? Can anything that one has > experienced not be the > object of lobha, except perhaps moha, since I > don't believe anyone > could ever want to be stupid or to not know... > Otherwise, haven't you > ever met people who liked to pick quarrels, > grumble all the time or > talk only about malicious gossip, never of mudita? > > Amara > > > --- "Kom Tukovinit" > wrote: > > How about dosa? Can dosa-related namas be > objects of lobha? > > > > kom > > 4468 From: Erik Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 3:52pm Subject: Re: Lamps Unto Ourselves? --- "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Erik, > > The source of the confusion is the homonym 'diipa' which represents two > etymologically distinct words. [...] Just wanted to say thank you for that great response, and thanks to all the other relies as well. 4469 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Silaa, Daana & Bhaavanaa (& Diññhujukamma) Mike I don't recall having seen a reply to this query (apologies for the repetition is there has been) > (1) reminding me of the 10 kusala kammapatha (by the > way, does anyone know if this list occurs explicitly > in the Suttanta or the Vinaya?); I believe these factors can be found at - A. X, 28, 176 M. 9 M. 114 Jon 4470 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Erik Thanks for these further comments. > > I am not familiar with this idea of a concept > `taking > > on the characteristic' of what it's pointing to. …. > Perhaps a quote from Khun Sujim would > clarify, because it's > the closest I can find to what I've been trying to > say: > > "Even though [pannatti] are not paramattha-dhamma, > they are arammana > of the cittuppada by their signs or the shadow of > meanings (the > parallel of paramattha) designated in such a manner > because it > parallels or compares by making known [with > language] the sign or > features so that people can say, understand one > another, call, make > known the meanings." This passage seems to me to be explaining how it is that concept can be object of citta (moment of consciousness), and how concept is used to make things known. I don’t read this as suggesting that concept ‘takes on the characteristic’ of what it’s pointing at. > Jon, thanks for your other comments on the "tree > falling in the > forest" question. I see it another way at the > moment, namely, that > even if there is rupa in theory that rises and > falls, since it isn't > happening now as direct experience, it hardly > matters; the question's > academic. Or, more to the point, there's nothing > "real" apart from > what's being cognized at any given instant, so the > question doesn't > even apply. Erik, I am always happy when a discussion is brought back to what is real at the present moment. But I don’t think you and Howard can be let off so easily on this one (you are both suggesting we drop the subject, on the grounds that the issue is of no relevance to the present moment!). It matters, and is relevant, to this extent. Rupas, like all other realities (except nibbana), are conditioned. This means not only that the necessary conditioning factors must be present in order for them to arise, but also that as long as those conditioning factors continue to be present the rupas must continue to arise. If rupas arise only at the moments they are experienced by citta (consciousness), what does that say about their conditioning factors? In this important respect, rupas and other realities are distinguished from concepts, which do indeed arise only with the moment of consciousness of which the concept is object. Come to think of it, perhaps that is why these 2 topics (concepts, rupas not being experienced) tend to come up together – I was struggling to make the connection until just now. Jon 4471 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:21am Subject: Re: Quiz > Dear K. Amara and Num, > > It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have lobha > towards dosa. I always thought that "liking" to be angry is > more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa) rather than > lobha. > > I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an > aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta. It's unclear to me > if this is equivalent to what we have been discussing or > not. Dear friends, From your comments I will try to find out all the implications of the arguments: 1. Is upadana a form of lobha? Since there are four upadana, are all of them different kinds of lobha? 2. Can all khandha be their object? 3. What are the khandha that can't ever be the objects of upadana even when they have arisen? (4. What are the khandha that can't be the objects of lobha, in case they turn out to be different, which I doubt.) If dosa can't be the object of lobha, I must have missed out on the third answer that any citta or cetasika that has not arisen can't be the object of upadana, which should include dosa and moha in the answer, in which case would it imply that we do not take dosa or moha for the self? Which would seem impossible for people who have not attained any level of enlightenment. Or would it simply mean we do not want to have lobha for dosa and moha? (As K. Kom suggested.) It could very well be the case, and I will need to make an amendment soon. I will check this and report, but as I explained earlier, I will be able to participate less often in the discussions this month, so it might take a while. The study of paccaya is indeed relevant to this question, and I think that all 5 citta, comprising the 2 moha mula citta, the 2 dosa mula citta and the bodily dukha vedana cannot be an aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta, you are right. This should accord completely with the object of upadana, as well as clarify it. Looks like the amendment will be in order, thanks for the precision, K. Kom. (again!) Will verify and see if any more should be added to the list of non upadana objects, Amara 4472 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:27am Subject: Q&A10 Dear friends, We have just finished uploading the latest Q&A to that section in , compiled from several answers to questions about sampajanna, Enjoy, Amara 4473 From: Howard Date: Sun Apr 1, 2001 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/1/01 11:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Erik, I am always happy when a discussion is brought > back to what is real at the present moment. But I > don’t think you and Howard can be let off so easily on > this one (you are both suggesting we drop the subject, > on the grounds that the issue is of no relevance to > the present moment!). > > ========================== I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any subject. Of course, I do turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4474 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 0:49am Subject: More on Subject-Dropping Hi, Jon - I had written: In a message dated 4/1/01 11:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Erik, I am always happy when a discussion is brought > back to what is real at the present moment. But I > don’t think you and Howard can be let off so easily on > this one (you are both suggesting we drop the subject, > on the grounds that the issue is of no relevance to > the present moment!). > > ==========================     I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any subject. Of course, I do turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! ;-)) With metta, Howard XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX The foregoing was with regard to the ongoing discussion of what exactly concepts are, what their ontological status is, whether or not they have characteristics (inherited from referents or otherwise), and whether to 'exist" requires being observed or not. I'm writing here to back up my claim that I have not suggested dropping this or any related subjects, by writing out the core content of what I have written on this matter. It includes five posts written on March 26 and 27. Thus, my last post was written 5 days ago, and, I think that if one examines these posts, all that will be seen is a discussion of the issues giving my current, tentative positions on them, and nowhere will any sort of dismissal be found. Actually, I think you may have misinterpreted something that I said about doing a bit less posting to the list. I will say a bit more about that at the end of this post. Meanwhile my combined comments on concepts follow. If there is no interest in rereading them please skip past them. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> I think what may be going on here is that the term 'pannatti' / 'concept' is being used here to stand for what I am used to thinking as the *referent* of a concept. To me, a concept is a thought. There are concepts such as 'color' which have as reference what are here called paramattha dhammas, and there are concepts such as 'car' which seem to reference things, but those "things" are not dhamma / phenomena that are direct elements of experience. Without the concept of 'color', we can still detect colors (though we may not so characterize them). Colors, as objects, do not exist independent of being observed, but they *can* exist independent of the *concept* of 'color'. On the other hand, while it *seems* that we experience a car, we actually only experience a spatial and temporal pattern of paramattha dhammas; our mind then produces the thought / concept of 'car' to refer to this experiential pattern. Since the car per se is not to be found independent of the concept of car, it is empty and without characteristic. In a *sense*, it doesn't even exist! This is how I see this matter. ******************************************************************* Even in the case of a concept such as 'color', the reference is without characteristic. While particular colors of particular objects are directly observed phenomena, the referent of the concept 'color' is intended to be something we might call "color-in-general", an alleged "thing" which has never been observed, and which certainly is without characteristic. Thus, *every* concept, from 'color' to 'car' is similar in this respect. ******************************************************************* I may be mistaken, but, as I wrote in my posts on this topic, I believe that where you and I are using 'pannatti' / 'concept' to refer to a thought/idea which subsumes a number of direct experiences that share common or related features, others are using the term to refer to the intended *referent* of the concept, i.e. the *category* subsumed. As I see it, that category-referent is not only never observed, but is, in fact, not observable. It is *merely* conceptual in the sense of being the *conventional* referent of the concept/thought. The individual instances subsumed by the concept/thought, and their common features, are observable, at least if the concept is grounded, and not like the proverbial "child of a barren woman", and the thought/concept itself is a mental element of experience, but not the "category" which is the intended referent of the concept. (In some cases, even the the apparent individual instances subsumed by a grounded thought/concept are not directly observable, because they are *themselves* actually only thoughts/concepts subsuming a collection of co-occurring experiences such as 'the car presently parked in my driveway', though it *seems* that they are directly observed objects.)     I believe that it is the abstract "category" that others here are referring to when they speak of 'pannatti'. The pannatti, itself, *in the sense* of the thought or concept is, indeed, conditioned by the experiences it subsumes, their common features, and the relations among them, and it thereby has characteristics. This is my take on the matter. ***************************************************************     I think I should clarify my position a bit. The position that "To exist is to be observed" is an idealist position that goes beyond mine. Mine is a kind of phenomenalist position that is closer to "To exist is to be observable" in the sense that if certain experiences are made to occur, then certain other experiences will also occur. So, when I say "The sky is blue", for example, what I mean is something along the following lines (still with heavily packed shorthand involved): "Should someone with functionally unimpaired vision look at the sky, he/she will see the color blue"; i.e., Should this occur, then that will occur; When this arises, then that arises (but all in experiential terms rather than existential terms).     I haven't put this very well. i hope you get my drift. ************************************************************* This last question isn't dissimilar to the blue sky question. The main point, as I see it, is: What does it mean that "a tree falls in the forest"? The more standard point is: What does it mean to make sound? Is it (potential) experience, or is it something independent of experience? With regard to either point, as I see it, this is an experiential matter, either actual or conditional. [Relatedly, but somewhat as a side issue, there is an orderliness to the world of experience, and it is a shared world, an intersubjective world. What occurs within one "beings" 's experience is related to what occurs within another's. It all hangs together, which is what supports the impression of an objective, external "reality", independent of even the possibility of observation.] I think the main point of the question is actually: If an event occurs, but no sentient being observes it, does it really occur? As I see it, one has to ask what is meant at the very outset by "the event occurring". To me that has to mean that "it" was either observed by at least one sentient being or, more generally, if certain steps had been taken, then it *would* have been so observed; i.e., due to previous experiential events, a certain conditionality was established.     This is about the best I can do. I'm not a philosopher. All that I can add is my general sense of the world being *like* a dream, in fact, like a brilliantly engineered lucid dream.     I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a bit off-topic for the list, and probably should only be continued privately. Whether matters are the way I see them or not is not critical to the Buddha's path to liberation. Some say his approach was that of phenomenalism, and others disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and the escape from suffering. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Just for the record, I consider this subject-matter to be fascinating! So much so, that I could spend hours on it. But such intellectual stimulation, just like sensual stimulation, can overcome one. One can become obsessed. I have, indeed, said that I feel the need for some renunciation in that regard. That is absolutely the case. But it is not a matter of dropping a subject due to alleged inapplicability. It is just a matter of bringing things more into balance (for myself). I need to increase my direct seeing of matters via meditation, moment-to-moment mindfulness, and vigilant guarding of the senses, and decrease my involvement with intellectual analysis. This is what I need at the moment. Erik, on the other hand, takes exactly the opposite position. He is quite pleased with the balance of things for him at the moment. As Marx said, "To each according to his need!" ;-)) P.S., I'm no Marxist! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4475 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 6:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi, Howard, --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ========================== > I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any > subject. Of course, I do > turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! > ;-)) > I don't think you need to worry about your mind just yet! It seems to be functioning pretty well. March was a really hectic month on dsg (especially the second half) and it's hard to remember who said what sometimes... I've really appreciated all your contributions. We'll probably also be easing off significantly this month too because we'll be travelling for most of it (Sydney & Bangkok), leaving in a couple of days and relying on quick visits to internet cafes without our dhamma texts...(Erik, sources may have to wait unless Rob & Kom help me out!). Best wishes, Sarah p.s. Jon turns 56 this month, close behind you, but I turn only 48, a mere babe! 4476 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/1/01 6:16:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > Jon turns 56 this month, close behind you, but I > turn only 48, a mere babe! > > ============================ Hmph! Mere children, both of you! I think this list should "card" its members!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4477 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 9:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi all, I am still in the womb at 42!!!!!! :-) Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Howard Date: Monday, 2 April 2001 9:21 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of >Hi, Sarah - > >In a message dated 4/1/01 6:16:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >Sarah writes: > > >> Jon turns 56 this month, close behind you, but I >> turn only 48, a mere babe! >> >> >============================ >Hmph! Mere children, both of you! I think this list should "card" its >members!! ;-)) > >With metta, >Howard > > >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a >phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 4478 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 6:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/1/01 8:13:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman H writes: > Hi all, > > I am still in the womb at 42!!!!!! :-) > > > Regards > > > Herman > ============================== Heh, heh, heh! ;-)) And the irony of all this age business is that every one of us has been non-existing since the very no-beginning of time!! With ancient metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4479 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 2:12pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear Kom, Amara, Num, Yes, dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) and akusala vipakacitta (body consciousness) cannot be arammanapacaya (object condition) or arammanupanissaya (strong dependence of object condition) for lobha because they are not 'desirable' objects, but I am pretty sure they can be pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependence of natural condition) which is very broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg when one steals). Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition for lobha: "What is intended here is but Resultant pleasant feeling; hence 'Tis a condition in one way for all this craving's occurrence. In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support condition only. Or alternatively: A man in pain for pleasure longs, And finding pleasure, longs for more; The peace of equanimity is counted pleasure too; therefore The Greatest Sage announced the law 'With feeling as condition, craving', Since all three feelings thus can be conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11, 238) With regard to the upadanas (clingings), 'there are these four kinds of clinging here, namely, sense-desire clinging, (false)view clinging, rite and ritual clinging, and self doctrine clinging'.....'Clinging (upadana) is firm grasping; for here the prefix upa has the sense of firmness...' (241) It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons of ignorance and wrong view? Pausing for reflection, Sarah p.s Howard, nonetheless, I promise to pay you due respect in future ;-)) =================================================== --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear K. Amara and Num, > > It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have > lobha > towards dosa. I always thought that "liking" to be > angry is > more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa) > rather than > lobha. > > I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an > aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta. It's unclear > to me > if this is equivalent to what we have been > discussing or > not. > > kom 4480 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 2:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Back To Observing Consciousness Dear Des, After Teng Kee's, your posts are the greatest challenge to me! You've obviously studied the abhidhamma, but because we use some different terminology, I have some difficulty in understanding your meaning sometimes. However I really appreciate your effort to explain. Apologies if I'm slow to catch your meaning. --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > When a moment of consciousness [17 cittas] arises > out of interactions of > [nama + rupa] or [citta + cetasika + rupa], (as a > result of impingement of a > stimulus on any of the five sense organs), the mind > sense is stimulated or > impinged as the fifth order of citta [1st= past > bhavanga, 2nd= vibrating > bhavanga, 3rd= arresting bhavanga, 4th sense door > citta]in the normal > sequence of 17 cittas. O.k., sticking to the normal sequence for now (which is what we're really interested in after all), this '4th sense door citta' is the dvipancavinnana citta (pairs of sense cognition which are kusala or akusala vipaka), i.e. seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. > > Once the mind sense is stimulated, the mind then > becomes the subject as the > observing consciousness,... O.K. after the seeing-consciousness, the object (in this case visible object) is experienced by the other cittas, including the javana cittas in the sense door process, before being experienced by a similar series through the mind-door. So it seems that it is the latter series, including the mind-door javana cittas which you are referring to as 'observing consciousness' >... for an extremely short period of time, if one's >mind is concentrated or one has the vipassana nana. Well, I agree that all the cittas last a very short time, not just under these circumstances. This makes me wonder if by observing consciousness, you (and the writer of the quote given before) are not referring to panna which at the moments of the first vipassana nana, for example, clearly understands namas and rupas distinctly. Of course concentration (ekaggata cetasika) arises with all cittas, but you are probably referring only to right concentration arising with right understanding. Perhaps you would clarify if this is correct and I apologise in advance if I am still misunderstanding you! Thanks and best wishes, Sarah 4481 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Hi Num, i'm still trying to catch up with you, but you 'run' a little too fast for me..hence the delay! --- Num wrote: > Hi K.Amara, > > Well, after a long discussion with Kom, I still > cannot come to the clear > definition and character of sanna, (as well as > manasikara, vitakka and > vicara). > > So far, I understand that sanna marks or registers > arammana as well as > performs a function of recallection in memory > retrival process. I mentioned > that memory basically has three characters, > registration, retention and > recall. You also said the power of sanna varies > from citta to citta and > also by other paccaya. I'm just wondering if one problem isn't that you're trying to 'equate' sanna and other cetasikas with your conventional understanding of memory, thinking etc as we study them in psychology and psychiatry or in other 'worldly' ways. I just mention this as I have always found it to be a real stumbling block if I try to apply my 'conventional' knowledge from psychological and psycholinguistic studies, for example, to abhidhamma. I just treat the first a (usually) useful set of concepts to work with and the latter as an extraordinary analysis of realities to be known at this moment. Just an idea, let me know what you think. keep running! Sarah 4482 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:32pm Subject: still stuck with sanna Dear Howard & Num, Just a little more and i'm not trying to suggest this is an easy object for awareness! Howard, you said (and i don't THINK anyone replied further): =================================== > I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na, > but I had thought there > was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a > role in the formation of > percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular > features of current experience, > driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking" > them as a kind of mental > package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual > unit. I suspect that my > understanding here is only partially correct, and I > would appreciate > clarification. ----------------------------------------------------- I think this is pretty good and close to my undestanding of sanna. Perhaps what I find most helpful is to remember that sanna arises with every single citta, marking each object in turn. So it's not the same as any of our conventional terms of perception, memory or recognition exactly. I also find it helpful to remembe that the proximate cause is the object. This object can be either a paramattha dhamma (reality) or a pannatti (concept), depending on what the citta it accompanies is experiencing. Thirdly, it's useful to remember that it is affected and conditioned by the citta and other cetasikas (mental factors) which it is accompanying and so as I've mentioned before, it can be wholesome or unwholesome, right or wrong, stong or subtle. Just a few more reflections...and catching up! Sarah 4483 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dogma or experience? Hi Herman, you have a lot of excellent questions below. May I highly recommend 'Abhidhamma in Daily life' by Nina Van Gorkom. this book will answer most your questions much better than I could do and you can find it on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links go to dhammastudy.com Just in very brief as i have a group of teenagers arriving any moment here: 1. a citta is a kind of nama 2. Siamese twins, however attached or non-atached, have their own sets of cittas independent of the others (but of course lots of cross-conditioning) 3. all the details were understood and taught by the Buddha. We can test out at this moment whether there is one citta after another, say seeing then thinking, or lobha then dosa, and the more confidence that grows with understanding (even at a beginning level), the more we will be inclined to accept other aspects that are not directly realised. (That's what I find anyway!) Have a look at ADL and ask anything that is not cleared up easily or which you still have doubts about. Sorry for a bit of a 'cop-out' here.. Really appreciating your keen interest.... Take care, kid! In a couple of days we'll be in dingoblueland too! Sarah p.s that's how my older students refer to younger ones! --- Herman wrote: > Hi all, > > I have read on numerous occasions, that cittas arise > in sequence, one > after the other. I wonder whether this is being said > because it has > been experienced, or whether it has been read and > recycled as > experience. And if cittas arise singularly, in > sequence, what is the > locus of a citta, if any? Nama? And what is the > locus of Nama, if > any? Is there one Nama per citta? One Nama per Rupa? > How many cittas > arise simultaneously in siamese twins? (The recent > case in UK where > one half was sacrificed to maintain the life of the > other comes to > mind) > > > Similarly, I have read many a time that rupas last > 17 times longer > than a cita. Again, when this is written, is it > because it has been > experienced, or read about and rebadged as ultimate > reality (without > references to whoever experienced this)? > > It seems to me that either there is counting or > experiencing. How can > it be a quality of a citta that it is x times > longer, shorter , > whatever , than another citta which cannot be being > referenced at the > same time, given that there is only ever one citta? > > Any insights would be appreciated. 4484 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Howard Oops! > I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any > subject. Of course, I do > turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! > ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard My apologies. I'm sure it is my mind that is slipping. I must make sure I check my references more carefully in future. Best wishes for your 61st. What date? Jon 4485 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 5:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] More on Subject-Dropping Howard Yes, an interesting subject. Thanks for consolidating your posts. I would like to read through them and get back to you later to continue the discussion. BTW, here is the passage i had in mind when i made my comment on subject-dropping. But on a re-reading i agree my post put the words into your mouth. Apologies again. Jon I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a bit off-topic for the list, and probably should only be continued privately. Whether matters are the way I see them or not is not critical to the Buddha's path to liberation. Some say his approach was that of phenomenalism, and others disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and the escape from suffering 4486 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 6:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] still stuck with sanna Hi, Sarah - Thank you for the information in the following post! With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/2/01 3:33:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > Dear Howard & Num, > > Just a little more and i'm not trying to suggest this > is an easy object for awareness! > > Howard, you said (and i don't THINK anyone replied > further): > > =================================== > > I do understand the memory aspect of sa~n~na, > > but I had thought there > > was a bit more to it. I thought that it also has a > > role in the formation of > > percepts/concepts by zeroing in on particular > > features of current experience, > > driven by interest, culling these out, and "marking" > > them as a kind of mental > > package for future recall as a perceptual/conceptual > > unit. I suspect that my > > understanding here is only partially correct, and I > > would appreciate > > clarification. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > I think this is pretty good and close to my > undestanding of sanna. > > Perhaps what I find most helpful is to remember that > sanna arises with every single citta, marking each > object in turn. So it's not the same as any of our > conventional terms of perception, memory or > recognition exactly. I also find it helpful to remembe > that the proximate cause is the object. This object > can be either a paramattha dhamma (reality) or a > pannatti (concept), depending on what the citta it > accompanies is experiencing. Thirdly, it's useful to > remember that it is affected and conditioned by the > citta and other cetasikas (mental factors) which it is > accompanying and so as I've mentioned before, it can > be wholesome or unwholesome, right or wrong, stong or > subtle. > > Just a few more reflections...and catching up! > Sarah > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4487 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves? taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? [what does it mean?] > Taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, means: - to have Buddha as the goal or destination, - to use Dharma as the road map for direction, - to associate with Sangha, people of same goal and aspiration. Furthermore, just like seeking refuge in the United States, seeking refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, offers you protection, a safe haven, and a sanctuary against harm and hardship. Repeating in one's mind: "Buudham sarranam gichsami, Dharman sarranam gichsami, Sanghan sarranam gichsami", offers one the best protection from harm. . He says that Attadipa >viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell >making >yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge >and >not anyone else as your refuge." The above, in my opinium means: Search the answer for the truth [dharma] within your own fathom long body. The Buddha, Dharma, and the Sangha can be found within one's fathom long body. He who sees and understands his body >>>>> sees Dharma; He who sees Dharma >>>>> sees Buddha He who understand his body [him/her self], understands Dharma; He who understands Dharma, understands Buddhia [buddhism] Here >Ananda a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the >body..feelings in feelings..mind in mind...phenomena in >phenomena" Thus a summary of satipatthana. To dwell contemplating body in the body, feelings in the feelings, mind in mind, phenomena in phenomena means: to use your observing mind to see body in the [mundane] body; to see feelings in the [mundane] feelings; to see mind in the [mundane] mind; to see phenomena in the [mundane] phenomena. Hope the above explanations are of help. In medicine, the above explanation is called the applied anatomy or practical anatomy [anatomy that is used clinically, like in surgery, for use to treat patients] vs. pure anatomy [anatomy that one learns from the cadaver] The latter is exact [amen] The former is practical [buddha] Thanks, metta, des >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lamps Unto Ourselves? >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:32:20 -0800 (PST) > >dear Erik, >B. Bodhi translates this phrase where it is duplicated in the >Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) as >"Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge, >dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your >refuge, with no other refuge" As Amara noted this is a >encouragement not to take other teachers but to rely on the >Dhamma as laid out by the Buddha. >It carries on: "And how Ananda does a bhikkhu dwell with himself >as an island..with no other refuge, dwell with the Dhamma as an >island, with the Dhamma as a refuge, with no other refuge. Here >Ananda a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the >body..feelings in feelings..mind in mind...phenomena in >phenomena" Thus a summary of satipatthana. >robert >--- Erik wrote: > > > > Hi all, I was hoping some of the erudite Pali scholars around > > here > > might be able to clarify a question for a friend of mine: > > > > "My question is about the translation of a phrase from the > > Mahaparinibbana sutta. I have read that the Buddha said make a > > lamp > > of yourself. In his book, What The Buddha Taught, Walpola > > Rahula says > > that this in not what the phase means. He says that Attadipa > > viharatha, attasarana anannasarana, translates as "Dwell > > making > > yourselves your island (support) making yourselves your refuge > > and > > not anyone else as your refuge." He goes on the explain much > > more. > > But I am confussed and wonder what the difference is and if it > > is > > very important. Any help is most welcome." > > > > Can anyone shed light on this particular passage, and the > > intended > > meaning? One question that occurred to me is, what does this > > mean as > > far as taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha? > > > > Thanks, > > Erik > > > > 4488 From: Num Date: Mon Apr 2, 2001 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna Hi Sarah, <> Better to be late, than never. I really appreciate your input, Sarah:) <> Hmm, well. This is not my goal but I think the reason I did that is b/c I am used to the term. My real intention is to understand the reality but at the beginning I really want to be clear of the term or definition of what we are referring to or talking about. I still need to use concept and term in studying, communicating as well as a condition for right understanding. So I think concept is very critical for conditioning right understanding. But I also agree with you that it's not real. To me psychiatry, medicine and science share some of their parts with dhamma study in the way that they try to deal and understand reality, by different approaches. Definitely the goal is different but they both give benefit to mankind in different level. From my opinion at this point, I told my self it's better to be good at both world. Advance in science gives a lot of new insight or makes us see thing in totally different way. Yeap, I have to tell and ask myself what is real and what is concept. Well, come back to the point. I don't know even in Thai, the term in conventional use can be totally different form Tipitaka definition, like the term "vitaka" or "vasana" or even "sanna" itself. So I think it's better to be precise and clear in what we refer to. I am still struggle at the level term and definition, but my main aim is to understand the reality here and now. I wish I can get over it someday. So be patient with me, OK. Always appreciate your concern and responses. Num 4489 From: Howard Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/2/01 5:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Howard > > Oops! > > > I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any > > subject. Of course, I do > > turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! > > ;-)) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > My apologies. I'm sure it is my mind that is > slipping. I must make sure I check my references more > carefully in future. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No big deal .. at all! Actually, as I mentioned in a follow-up post on this, I had said something to the effect of wanting to ease up a bit on the extent of my posting, and you might easily have misinterpreted what I meant by that. --------------------------------------------------------- > Best wishes for your 61st. What date? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The 25th. BTW, throughout my life my personal definition of (the beginning of) "old" was 60. So what's one more year? (OLD + 1 = OLD is the relevant arithmetic!!) ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4490 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 10:35am Subject: Re: Concepts - nature of hello dear Taurus, of course --- if I follow the math implicit here --- old does not mean infinitely old (I think, last time I counted, so to speak). :>) April 25 is one day away from the birthday of a dear friend, and now it is the day of an old friend (double entendre?), happy upcoming birthday, jinavamsa --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 4/2/01 5:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > Howard > > > > Oops! > > > > > I don't recall suggesting the dropping of any > > > subject. Of course, I do > > > turn 61 this month, and my mind might be slipping! > > > ;-)) > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > My apologies. I'm sure it is my mind that is > > slipping. I must make sure I check my references more > > carefully in future. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No big deal .. at all! Actually, as I mentioned in a follow-up post on > this, I had said something to the effect of wanting to ease up a bit on the > extent of my posting, and you might easily have misinterpreted what I meant > by that. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > Best wishes for your 61st. What date? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The 25th. BTW, throughout my life my personal definition of (the > beginning of) "old" was 60. So what's one more year? (OLD + 1 = OLD is the > relevant arithmetic!!) > ;-)) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Jon > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4491 From: Howard Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] More on Subject-Dropping Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/2/01 5:53:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Howard > > Yes, an interesting subject. Thanks for consolidating > your posts. I would like to read through them and get > back to you later to continue the discussion. > > BTW, here is the passage i had in mind when i made my > comment on subject-dropping. But on a re-reading i > agree my post put the words into your mouth. > Apologies again. > > Jon > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahhh ... yes I see. What I was really referring to in the following was the discussion of the phenomenalist take on "external objects", and my thought was that this might be slightly orthogonal to the mainstream issues of Dhamma [though my personal prejudice is that the Buddha was both a pragmatist and a phenomenalist], and that continuing too long along these lines on-list might violate expectations for staying "on-topic". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I should add one thing more: I think this matter is a > bit off-topic > for the list, and probably should only be continued > privately. Whether > matters are the way I see them or not is not critical > to the Buddha's path to > liberation. Some say his approach was that of > phenomenalism, and others > disagree. But all he taught at core was suffering and > the escape from > suffering > > ==================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4492 From: Howard Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts - nature of Hi, Jina - In a message dated 4/2/01 10:37:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jinavamsa writes: > hello dear Taurus, > of course --- if I follow the math implicit here --- old does > not mean infinitely old (I think, last time I counted, so to > speak). :>) > April 25 is one day away from the birthday of a dear friend, > and now it is the day of an old friend (double entendre?), > happy upcoming birthday, > jinavamsa > ============================== Thanks for the kind wishes, Jina!! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4493 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:54pm Subject: Re: Quiz --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Kom, Amara, Num, > > Yes, dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) and akusala > vipakacitta (body consciousness) cannot be > arammanapacaya (object condition) or arammanupanissaya > (strong dependence of object condition) for lobha > because they are not 'desirable' objects, but I am > pretty sure they can be pakatupanissaya paccaya > (strong dependence of natural condition) which is very > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg > when one steals). > > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition > for lobha: > > "What is intended here is but > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence > 'Tis a condition in one way > for all this craving's occurrence. > > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support > condition only. Or alternatively: > > A man in pain for pleasure longs, > And finding pleasure, longs for more; > The peace of equanimity > is counted pleasure too; therefore > The Greatest Sage announced the law > 'With feeling as condition, craving', > Since all three feelings thus can be > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11, > 238) > > With regard to the upadanas (clingings), 'there are > these four kinds of clinging here, namely, > sense-desire clinging, (false)view clinging, rite and > ritual clinging, and self doctrine > clinging'.....'Clinging (upadana) is firm grasping; > for here the prefix upa has the sense of firmness...' > (241) > > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons > of ignorance and wrong view? > > Pausing for reflection, > Sarah > > p.s Howard, nonetheless, I promise to pay you due > respect in future ;-)) > =================================================== > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear K. > Amara and Num, > > > > It doesn't appear to me that someone actually have > > lobha > > towards dosa. I always thought that "liking" to be > > angry is > > more of a chanda (which always arises with dosa) > > rather than > > lobha. > > > > I believe in the pacaya studying, dosa cannot be an > > aramanupanissaya for lobha-mula citta. It's unclear > > to me > > if this is equivalent to what we have been > > discussing or > > not. > > > > kom Dear Sarah, Thanks for the details, I guess an amendment is not in order then, K. Kom? BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans! And thank you all, here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like a kid again! (52 here!) Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in samsara!!! Amara 4494 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 9:59pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear K. Amara, I haven't read Sarah's explanation thoroughly yet, but it sounds very plausible to me on the first pass. I think I will be quite happy with her explanation... Anumoddhana, kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 5:54 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz > > > --- Sarah Procter > Abbott > wrote: > > Dear Kom, Amara, Num, > > > > Yes, dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) and akusala > > vipakacitta (body consciousness) cannot be > > arammanapacaya (object condition) or arammanupanissaya > > (strong dependence of object condition) for lobha > > because they are not 'desirable' objects, but I am > > pretty sure they can be pakatupanissaya paccaya > > (strong dependence of natural condition) which is very > > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a > > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa > > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to > > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg > > when one steals). > > > > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition > > for lobha: > > > > "What is intended here is but > > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence > > 'Tis a condition in one way > > for all this craving's occurrence. > > > > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support > > condition only. Or alternatively: > > > > A man in pain for pleasure longs, > > And finding pleasure, longs for more; > > The peace of equanimity > > is counted pleasure too; therefore > > The Greatest Sage announced the law > > 'With feeling as condition, craving', > > Since all three feelings thus can be > > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11, > > 238) > > > > With regard to the upadanas (clingings), 'there are > > these four kinds of clinging here, namely, > > sense-desire clinging, (false)view clinging, rite and > > ritual clinging, and self doctrine > > clinging'.....'Clinging (upadana) is firm grasping; > > for here the prefix upa has the sense of firmness...' > > (241) > > > > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but > > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how > > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons > > of ignorance and wrong view? > > > > Pausing for reflection, > > Sarah > > > > p.s Howard, nonetheless, I promise to pay you due > > respect in future ;-)) 4495 From: Howard Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Hi, Amara - In a message dated 4/3/01 8:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans! And thank you all, > here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like a kid > again! (52 here!) Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in > samsara!!! > ============================ Thank you on behalf of all the bullheaded folks on the list! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4496 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 0:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group. Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. Jina - you didn't say your age? Me - 43 And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice between say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing wisdom, of course. robert --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Amara - > > In a message dated 4/3/01 8:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Amara writes:> > > > BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans! And thank > you all, > > here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like > a kid > > again! (52 here!) Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in > > > samsara!!! > > > ============================ > Thank you on behalf of all the bullheaded folks on the list! > ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 4497 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 1:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Age and Wisdom Dear Robert, Khun Jack read it from somewhere to me (tipitika?) once that >= 50 is the age of wisdom. Guess you still have a few more years to go, eh? On this topics, wouldn't this wisdom be based on accumulation rather than age? For example, Gotama Buddha became englightened when he is in his 30's, because of his past kamma resulting in his spending 6 years in following extreme asceticism. Some buddhas may spend hundreds/thousands of years (because of their life expetencies?) before they reach enlightenment. I don't know about the wisdom reaching its maturity at 50's, but the Buddha flatly refuted that old age brings on the arising of less panna and sati. kom --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group. > Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. > Jina - you didn't say your age? > Me - 43 > And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice between > say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing wisdom, of > course. > robert 4498 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 1:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Age and Wisdom Totally agree Kom about wisdom and age (I hope you are right). But I think the buddha spent 6 years doing ascetic practice because of bad kamma he had done in past life (I forget what). He was unusual in this regard. I think I read in the commentaries that most(but not all of course) Buddhas to be in their last life become Buddha within a few days of leaving home. On the other hand he was one where panna (wisdom)was predominant and thus he went the short way compared to other bodhisattas (some go with effort or other factors predominant). All of them have all factors, of course, and even the short way is 4 unimaginably long periods of time plus a hundred thousand aeons. (not counting all the time it took to get to the stage where they can receive a prediction from another Buddha). Makes the seven years until I reach fifty seem pretty brief. robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Khun Jack read it from somewhere to me (tipitika?) once that > >= 50 is > the age of wisdom. Guess you still have a few more years to > go, eh? > > On this topics, wouldn't this wisdom be based on accumulation > rather > than age? For example, Gotama Buddha became englightened when > he is in > his 30's, because of his past kamma resulting in his spending > 6 years > in following extreme asceticism. Some buddhas may spend > hundreds/thousands of years (because of their life > expetencies?) before > they reach enlightenment. > > I don't know about the wisdom reaching its maturity at 50's, > but the > Buddha flatly refuted that old age brings on the arising of > less panna > and sati. > > kom > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group. > > Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. > > Jina - you didn't say your age? > > Me - 43 > > And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice > between > > say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing > wisdom, of > > course. > > robert > 4499 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 8:16am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear Kom & Amara, I just saw yesterday that Rob has put the Visuddhimagga on abhidhamma.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links (sorry- I haven't saved direct links yet) so you may find it interesting to read the whole chapter on lobha and upadana. All- he is also in the process of putting Concepts & Realities (much discussed here) on the same site. So there's a lot of good Easter reading there and on dhammastudy.com & Zolag. Kom, you never know, you may find a few lurking nits...! Thanks in advance for your consideration. Sarah --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear K. Amara, > > I haven't read Sarah's explanation thoroughly yet, > but it > sounds very plausible to me on the first pass. I > think I > will be quite happy with her explanation... > > Anumoddhana, > > kom 4500 From: jinavamsa Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:42am Subject: Re: Quiz hi Robert, and all, you write: > Jina - you didn't say your age? I suppose that that's a question. I do not remember if I did. And to the next question, 59. Further, there's a photo (from Sept. a year and a half ago) at: http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/introwithphoto-127.html and others at: http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/Intro_with_cat.html :>) with metta and a meow, jinavamsa --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Kind regards to the senior, venerated members of the group. > Especially Howard on his upcoming birthday. > Jina - you didn't say your age? > Me - 43 > And just wondering- what differences does anyone notice between > say 40 and 50 (and 60). Apart from greatly increasing wisdom, of > course. > robert > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Amara - > > > > In a message dated 4/3/01 8:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Amara writes: > > > > > > > BTW happy birthday in advance to all Taureans! And thank > > you all, > > > here I was feeling middle aged and you all made me feel like > > a kid > > > again! (52 here!) Isn't it great to have dhamma friends in > > > > > samsara!!! > > > > > ============================ > > Thank you on behalf of all the bullheaded folks on the list! > > ;-)) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > > dawn, a bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > > flickering lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > 4501 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:43am Subject: Visuddhimagga on-line Dear sarah, So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting others on gradually http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Kom & Amara, > > I just saw yesterday that Rob has put the > Visuddhimagga on abhidhamma.com > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > > (sorry- I haven't saved direct links yet) > > so you may find it interesting to read the whole > chapter on lobha and upadana. > > All- > he is also in the process of putting Concepts & > Realities (much discussed here) on the same site. > > So there's a lot of good Easter reading there and on > dhammastudy.com & Zolag. > > Kom, > > you never know, you may find a few lurking nits...! > Thanks in advance for your consideration. > > Sarah > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear K. > Amara, > > > > I haven't read Sarah's explanation thoroughly yet, > > but it > > sounds very plausible to me on the first pass. I > > think I > > will be quite happy with her explanation... > > > > Anumoddhana, > > > > kom > > 4502 From: teng kee ong Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 7:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line Dear Robert, I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper compare to US dollar from somewhere else. Teng Kee -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line > Dear sarah, > So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting > others on gradually > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm > robert > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear Kom & Amara, > > > > I just saw yesterday that Rob has put the > > Visuddhimagga on abhidhamma.com > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > > > > (sorry- I haven't saved direct links yet) > > > > so you may find it interesting to read the whole > > chapter on lobha and upadana. > > > > All- > > he is also in the process of putting Concepts & > > Realities (much discussed here) on the same site. > > > > So there's a lot of good Easter reading there and on > > dhammastudy.com & Zolag. > > > > Kom, > > > > you never know, you may find a few lurking nits...! > > Thanks in advance for your consideration. > > > > Sarah > > 4503 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 8:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Well, actually Teng I didn't ask. A good topic to look at, though. It was already placed by her on d-l on the internet and I simply asked if I could put it on my site. If anyone complains I'll take it off. I have 2 print copies myself but it is convenient having it on-line for searching. As far as BPS goes: Nina van gorkom asked Bhikkhu Bodhi(chief editor) if it was OK to put her articles that BPS had published on the net and B. Bodhi said no one can copyright Dhamma. Another website -buddhasasana - is also soon to put the Visuddhimagga on their site. I plan to notify BPS once I get hold of the whole copy- but it all takes time. Step by step. It is all a tricky business - Dhamma and copyright and internet. As you see I ask people to purchase a print copy. Really if anyone reads it on the net they should see its value and purchase it- ideally this will improve print sales. That is my hope anyway. So far it seems PTS don't allow internet copies of their works but this may change as people are making their own translations- but heavily based on the PTS originals- and putting them out there. Is it good to have it all on the web? Well, the oldtimers out there will remember the days when they had to journey to Asia to find true Dhamma. Or at least join PTS and feel the buoyancy in their wallet. Now people can get it in their living room in between the News and movie of the week. It makes it a little blase? Still it takes much, much effort to study and comprehend it and sift the wheat from the chaff. I don't know. Is it a good thing to promote it the way many are doing? Do we make it too easy? I remember when I found a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life in a secondhand bookstore in Sri lanka- that alone justified my trip. Perhaps not quite the same feeling if one comes across it after a 20 minute websurf? Or perhaps it is? In the jatakas there was a king who was willing to surrender his life just to hear one sentence of Dhamma - he valued it so highly. Do we devalue it by giving it so easily? On the other hand the Buddha occasionally spoke so that his voice could be heard throughout the 10,000 fold world systems and further - it beats even satellite. And moggallana spoke to the denizens of hell. I think the final answer may be that the internet makes easy distribution inevitable and that Dhamma is there to be given to people. Just musing to myself but look forward to comments. robert --- teng kee ong wrote: > Dear Robert, > I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition > of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society > or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to > recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version > after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book > from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper > compare to US dollar from somewhere else. > Teng Kee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line > > > > Dear sarah, > > So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be > putting > > others on gradually > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm > > robert > > > > 4504 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear Sarah, Anumoddhana for this post. I didn't find any nit to pick, but will ask for some clarifications and add a few comments. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah] > > Dear Kom, Amara, Num, > > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice versa > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead to > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha (eg > when one steals). So you are saying here that dosa cannot be aramana of lobha-mula cittas (you wouldn't cling to the dosa as aramana). However, dosa can condition dosa to rise anyway through some other means. The pakatu-nissaya paccaya explanation makes sense intellectually. The example I can think off how this might happen is when I feel gratified when my adversaries are sufferring. Would you say this is a fair example of dosa conditioning lobha? > > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a condition > for lobha: > > "What is intended here is but > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence > 'Tis a condition in one way > for all this craving's occurrence. Would you post the surrounding text for this quote? I am having some difficulty comprehending. > > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support > condition only. Or alternatively: > > A man in pain for pleasure longs, > And finding pleasure, longs for more; > The peace of equanimity > is counted pleasure too; therefore > The Greatest Sage announced the law > 'With feeling as condition, craving', > Since all three feelings thus can be > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, XV11, > 238) Ah, yes, another example. When I feel unpleasant, I often look for something pleasant to be engaged in. Dosa leading to lobha, although in some even more complex manner other than being the aramana. > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, but > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting how > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the aeons > of ignorance and wrong view? Clinging to the wrong views seems to be very natural to me. I observe in myself, and speculate in others. For myself, it also leads to mana (pride), etc., that I came up with this idea, or have found an idea that works. Unfortunately, not at all stupid or hard to occur, even while studying dhamma. kom 4505 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 10:49pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Dear All, It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of the person who first taught it. Think of what the Buddha did in order to acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it. If memory serves he spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning and afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night the deva and such, for forty five years. A friend of mine always stressed that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma too much or not. The times have changed, and certainly not for the better. I hope I will always do my best to present the correct dhamma as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as long as I am able. Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and may we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips, Amara wrote: > Well, actually Teng I didn't ask. A good topic to look at, > though. It was already placed by her on d-l on the internet and > I simply asked if I could put it on my site. If anyone complains > I'll take it off. I have 2 print copies myself but it is > convenient having it on-line for searching. > As far as BPS goes: Nina van gorkom asked Bhikkhu Bodhi(chief > editor) if it was OK to put her articles that BPS had published > on the net and B. Bodhi said no one can copyright Dhamma. > Another website -buddhasasana - is also soon to put the > Visuddhimagga on their site. > I plan to notify BPS once I get hold of the whole copy- but it > all takes time. Step by step. > > It is all a tricky business - Dhamma and copyright and internet. > As you see I ask people to purchase a print copy. Really if > anyone reads it on the net they should see its value and > purchase it- ideally this will improve print sales. That is my > hope anyway. > So far it seems PTS don't allow internet copies of their works > but this may change as people are making their own translations- > but heavily based on the PTS originals- and putting them out > there. > Is it good to have it all on the web? > Well, the oldtimers out there will remember the days when they > had to journey to Asia to find true Dhamma. Or at least join PTS > and feel the buoyancy in their wallet. Now people can get it in > their living room in between the News and movie of the week. It > makes it a little blase? > Still it takes much, much effort to study and comprehend it and > sift the wheat from the chaff. > I don't know. Is it a good thing to promote it the way many are > doing? Do we make it too easy? I remember when I found a copy of > Abhidhamma in Daily Life in a secondhand bookstore in Sri lanka- > that alone justified my trip. Perhaps not quite the same feeling > if one comes across it after a 20 minute websurf? Or perhaps it > is? > In the jatakas there was a king who was willing to surrender his > life just to hear one sentence of Dhamma - he valued it so > highly. Do we devalue it by giving it so easily? On the other > hand the Buddha occasionally spoke so that his voice could be > heard throughout the 10,000 fold world systems and further - it > beats even satellite. And moggallana spoke to the denizens of > hell. > > I think the final answer may be that the internet makes easy > distribution inevitable and that Dhamma is there to be given to > people. Just musing to myself but look forward to comments. > robert > > --- teng kee ong wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition > > of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society > > or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to > > recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version > > after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book > > from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper > > compare to US dollar from somewhere else. > > Teng Kee > > > > > > 4506 From: Alex T Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 11:14pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Dear Robert and all, I think that we may propagate Dhamma as hard as we can, but it's up to the accumulations of the readers to get as much out of it as possible. Thank you for the effort. I appreciate the materials in the Net very much. Anumodana, Alex Tran 4507 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Dear group, A member who hasn't posted on dsg yet sent me this and said I could post it. Robert, > > > > Many thanks for your reply. As someone whose principle > > exposure to Dhamma > > is via the internet, I must say how grateful I am to the many > > people who so > > generously have shared their time, knowledge, texts etc. so as > > to make it > > available to those who are ready but might not otherwise have > > had access. A > > trip to Asia has not been possible for me (although I hope to > > go in the > > next year or two- The > > scary thought is that without the internet I might have > > remained even more > > entangled in samsara. Therefore, as you see, I am a big > > supporter of the > > more the better. I can't help but feel that Dhamma is too > > valuable to be a > > commodity, although I certainly don't begrudge writers or > > publishers > > earning money so that they can carry on doing more. > > > > It was on the internet that I first read the Four Noble > > Truths. I then went > > to classes and learned of the Noble Eightfold Path from a > > practicing > > Buddhist Sri Lankan professor (taught free). I now go to > > meditation class > > at which free Dhamma books from Amaravati are regularly > > distributed. > > > > I have good friends in Hong Kong who keep asking me to visit, > > so maybe I > > will be coming that way sometime. > > > > Many thanks for your thoughts. > > Metta, > > Victoria > > 4508 From: wynn Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 2:56pm Subject: 7 days to be enlighten Why does it take at least 7 days to be enlighten? Why 7? Digha Nikaya 22 Maha-Satipatthana Sutta "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. 4509 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line Teng, I am confused by your question. What are you asking? What is the point you are trying to get across? Is it about copyright? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: teng kee ong Date: Wednesday, 4 April 2001 21:08 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line >Dear Robert, >I am wandering is that kind lady who type in Nyanamoli edition of visuddhimagga have permit from buddhist publication society or not.I hope you did and have another person behind her to recheck her typing.also there should be zip download version after it is completed.I want to add that to order this book from buddhist cultural central in lanka rupee will be cheaper compare to US dollar from somewhere else. >Teng Kee > 4510 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Dear Robert, Victoria, Just a couple of real quickies as a break from packing and last minute office and domestic chores before I head off for the airport. (Jon is already in Adelaide). I fully agree with Victoria. It's a wonderful way of sharing dhamma for those who might not otherwise have contact or access. Even for people like myself who have had access for a long time, this is really an enjoyable and useful way to study and share. I wish (not helpful I know!) I'd had these resources a long time ago! Victoria, thank you for allowing Rob to post your letter. Please do let us know more about yourself and interest in dhamma and how you came to explore this topic on the net. Of course, you must let us know when you come to Hong Kong and we'll be delighted to take you out for a 'dhamma' lunch! Are you in England now? London? Best regards and welcome to the list. Sarah p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma resources on the net, I also think it's important to respect copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can only continue to support translation work and produce books if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet will encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no idea about this. I think we have to just respect any decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to dipping into texts, but I can see the next generation will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With the severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would have some immediate advantages!~ 4511 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line Teng, Herman's message just reminds me, in your earlier post you mentioned about the lost commentaries. I would just like to send you my very best wishes in your search for these. Please let us know if you ever have any success in this. Sarah 4512 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 3:38pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear Kom, No time to start opening texts. In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependence of natural condition) rather than as arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave, there is dosa because one has no money, this is a natural support condition for the lobha which motivates the stealing of some money. If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for example when one takes delight in someone's suffering, the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight in the sound and visible object experienced directly as arammana (object) condition, for example. I'd like to follow this further, but must REALLY RUN at Num's speed now. Sorry this is so brief. I'd also like to follow along the lobha, mana and wrong view thread too, but it'll all have to wait (unless you and others like Rob get it sorted out in my absence!) Thanks, Sarah --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Anumoddhana for this post. I didn't find any nit to > pick, > but will ask for some clarifications and add a few > comments. > > > > > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a > > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice > versa > > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead > to > > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha > (eg > > when one steals). > > So you are saying here that dosa cannot be aramana > of > lobha-mula cittas (you wouldn't cling to the dosa as > aramana). However, dosa can condition dosa to rise > anyway > through some other means. The pakatu-nissaya > paccaya > explanation makes sense intellectually. The example > I can > think off how this might happen is when I feel > gratified > when my adversaries are sufferring. Would you say > this is a > fair example of dosa conditioning lobha? > > > > > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a > condition > > for lobha: > > > > "What is intended here is but > > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence > > 'Tis a condition in one way > > for all this craving's occurrence. > > Would you post the surrounding text for this quote? > I am > having some difficulty comprehending. > > > > > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support > > condition only. Or alternatively: > > > > A man in pain for pleasure longs, > > And finding pleasure, longs for more; > > The peace of equanimity > > is counted pleasure too; therefore > > The Greatest Sage announced the law > > 'With feeling as condition, craving', > > Since all three feelings thus can be > > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, > XV11, > > 238) > > Ah, yes, another example. When I feel unpleasant, I > often > look for something pleasant to be engaged in. Dosa > leading > to lobha, although in some even more complex manner > other > than being the aramana. > > > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, > but > > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting > how > > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the > aeons > > of ignorance and wrong view? > > Clinging to the wrong views seems to be very natural > to me. > I observe in myself, and speculate in others. For > myself, > it also leads to mana (pride), etc., that I came up > with > this idea, or have found an idea that works. > Unfortunately, > not at all stupid or hard to occur, even while > studying > dhamma. > > kom 4513 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 4:28pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha(Re: Quiz Dear sarah, I don't have time to look up texts. Briefly dosa cannot be arammana-Upanissaya-paccaya (object-decisive support condition) or arammana-adhipatti-paccaya (object-predominace condition). However, apart from the examples you mention I think it it can be a condition in other ways for either kusala or akusala. For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya for insight to arise. Or it can be arammana-paccaya for lobha if we want it to stop - and in that case the lobha is also immediately likely to condition more dosa - a vicious circle. I also assume dosa can be arammana paccaya for lobha for some who think anger is good. Check on this. I haven't looked at the Patthana for a long time. robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Kom, > > No time to start opening texts. > > In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as > object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa > being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a > condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong > dependence of natural condition) rather than as > arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached > to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave, > there is dosa because one has no money, this is a > natural support condition for the lobha which > motivates the stealing of some money. > > If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for > example when one takes delight in someone's suffering, > the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight > in the sound and visible object experienced directly > as arammana (object) condition, for example. > > I'd like to follow this further, but must REALLY RUN > at Num's speed now. Sorry this is so brief. I'd also > like to follow along the lobha, mana and wrong view > thread too, but it'll all have to wait (unless you and > others like Rob get it sorted out in my absence!) > > Thanks, > Sarah > > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > Sarah, > > > > Anumoddhana for this post. I didn't find any nit to > > pick, > > but will ask for some clarifications and add a few > > comments. > > > > > > > > broad. As we know, kusala (wholesomeness) can be a > > > condition for akusala (unwholesomeness) and vice > > versa > > > under this condition. Lobha (attachment) can lead > > to > > > dosa (eg when one kills) or dosa can lead to lobha > > (eg > > > when one steals). > > > > So you are saying here that dosa cannot be aramana > > of > > lobha-mula cittas (you wouldn't cling to the dosa as > > aramana). However, dosa can condition dosa to rise > > anyway > > through some other means. The pakatu-nissaya > > paccaya > > explanation makes sense intellectually. The example > > I can > > think off how this might happen is when I feel > > gratified > > when my adversaries are sufferring. Would you say > > this is a > > fair example of dosa conditioning lobha? > > > > > > > > Similarly, all kinds of feelings can be a > > condition > > > for lobha: > > > > > > "What is intended here is but > > > Resultant pleasant feeling; hence > > > 'Tis a condition in one way > > > for all this craving's occurrence. > > > > Would you post the surrounding text for this quote? > > I am > > having some difficulty comprehending. > > > > > > > > In one way: it is a condition as decisive-support > > > condition only. Or alternatively: > > > > > > A man in pain for pleasure longs, > > > And finding pleasure, longs for more; > > > The peace of equanimity > > > is counted pleasure too; therefore > > > The Greatest Sage announced the law > > > 'With feeling as condition, craving', > > > Since all three feelings thus can be > > > conditions for all kinds of craving.....'(Vis, > > XV11, > > > 238) > > > > Ah, yes, another example. When I feel unpleasant, I > > often > > look for something pleasant to be engaged in. Dosa > > leading > > to lobha, although in some even more complex manner > > other > > than being the aramana. > > > > > It may seem pretty stupid to cling to wrong views, > > but > > > isn't that why we're all still here, forgetting > > how > > > little time our 40 or 50 or 60 years are in the > > aeons > > > of ignorance and wrong view? > > > > Clinging to the wrong views seems to be very natural > > to me. > > I observe in myself, and speculate in others. For > > myself, > > it also leads to mana (pride), etc., that I came up > > with > > this idea, or have found an idea that works. > > Unfortunately, > > not at all stupid or hard to occur, even while > > studying > > dhamma. > > > > kom > > > 4514 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 4:47pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz Well i decided to look up some texts. I can't find anywhere where it says dosa can be arammana-paccaya for lobha, so maybe what I said was wrong. maybe it is by pakatupanissaya -paccaya only. I wrote the following based on Nina van Gorkoms "conditions: We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome habits over the course of this infinite samsara. By pakatupanissaya paccaya the unwholesome accumulations condition akusala citta (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy to see. However, also akusala(unwholesome) can condition kusala(wholesome) .One might regret the akusala one did and this conditions kusala. The “Patthhana” (Faultless triplet Vii 423, ): "After having killed, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the precept,fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhana, develops insight, develops Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it." The same is said about other bad deeds, they can be a condition for kusala. When we directly understand any akusala (hate, fear, desire etc) as it is, a mere paramattha dhamma, there is awareness that had as one of its conditions that akusala. Also kusala citta can condition akusala citta. The “Patthana” (, 423, II b):“Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence-condition.” For instance one may listen to Dhamma from a teacher and develop saddha (confidence ) in Buddhism. But then follow the teacher even when they teach some aspects of the Dhamma wrongly. Because of that one develops wrong view and wrong practice. Or one may study the Abhidhamma and because of that develop conceit about ones knowledge. robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sarah, > I don't have time to look up texts. Briefly > dosa cannot be arammana-Upanissaya-paccaya (object-decisive > support condition) or arammana-adhipatti-paccaya > (object-predominace condition). However, apart from the > examples > you mention I think it it can be a condition in other ways for > either kusala or akusala. > For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya > for > insight to arise. Or it can be arammana-paccaya for lobha if > we > want it to stop - and in that case the lobha is also > immediately > likely to condition more dosa - a vicious circle. I also > assume > dosa can be arammana paccaya for lobha for some who think > anger > is good. > Check on this. I haven't looked at the Patthana for a long > time. > robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > No time to start opening texts. > > > > In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as > > object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa > > being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a > > condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong > > dependence of natural condition) rather than as > > arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached > > to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave, > > there is dosa because one has no money, this is a > > natural support condition for the lobha which > > motivates the stealing of some money. > > > > If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for > > example when one takes delight in someone's suffering, > > the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight > > in the sound and visible object experienced directly > > as arammana (object) condition, for example. > > > > I'd like to follow this further, but must REALLY RUN > > at Num's speed now. Sorry this is so brief. I'd also > > like to follow along the lobha, mana and wrong view > > thread too, but it'll all have to wait (unless you and > > others like Rob get it sorted out in my absence!) > > > > Thanks, > > Sarah > > > > > > 4515 From: teng kee ong Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 7:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line dear herman and robert, I am just care about how Buddhist publication society in sri lanka can survive if all their books can be put online.I agree with as many as their books should be put online if the books are without typing error.Since bhikkhu bodhi said no copyright for his dhamma,someone in this list can start typing in Bodhi's books from BPS--bramajala,sammanaphala,mahanidana,sammaditthi sutta plus his abhidhammatthasanghaha.As far as i know only one book from bps which are not Wheel /bodhi series -Narada abhidhamatthasangaha is put online. i am sure someone have time to do this. from Teng Kee -----Original Message----- From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:58:57 +1000 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line > Teng, > > I am confused by your question. What are you asking? What is the point you > are trying to get across? > > Is it about copyright? > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > 4516 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line --- teng kee ong wrote: > dear herman and robert, > I am just care about how Buddhist publication society in sri > lanka can survive if all their books can be put online.I agree > with as many as their books should be put online if the books > are without typing error.Since bhikkhu bodhi said no > copyright for his dhamma,someone in this list can start typing > in Bodhi's books from > BPS--bramajala,sammanaphala,mahanidana,sammaditthi sutta plus > his abhidhammatthasanghaha. Actually he was replying to a question from Nina as to whether her books (published by BPS) could go on-line. I was quoting second hand here too. I am going to ask him directly on this matter in the future when I have more time and have thought more about the whole internet/copyright/Dhamma issue. As you and sarah have indicated both BPS and PTS need book sales to continue their operations; I have reservations about putting all their stuff on the web. I was glad you brought up the Visuddhimagga as I certainly would not like to be a cause for less book sales. The one thing about Visuddhimagga, though - how many people want to read a 900 page book on the web or print it out. I think anyone who had the money would prefer the book version. Robert > -----Original Message----- > From: "Herman Hofman" > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:58:57 +1000 > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line > > > > Teng, > > > > I am confused by your question. What are you asking? What is > the point you > > are trying to get across? > > > > Is it about copyright? > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > > > Herman > > 4517 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 8:25pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah] > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:38 AM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Quiz > > > Dear Kom, > > In brief, when there was the discussion about dosa as > object of lobha, I thought it was 'one's own' dosa It was one own's dosa I was referring to. I think having other's dosa as aramana is speculation (that others have dosa) at best, whereas one's own dosa can be paramatha even without satipatthana. > being referred to. This would be as I mentioned a > condition by pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong > dependence of natural condition) rather than as > arammana (object) because lobha can only be attached > to the 'desirable' object. So in the example I gave, > there is dosa because one has no money, this is a > natural support condition for the lobha which > motivates the stealing of some money. > > If you're talking about the 'other's' dosa, for > example when one takes delight in someone's suffering, > the case is different, isn't it? There may be delight > in the sound and visible object experienced directly > as arammana (object) condition, for example. When I referred to "when one takes delights in one's adversary's suffering", what I meant was the followings. When I think of someone as an adversary, then there bounds to be some anger associated with it. The anger conditions indirectly the arising of lobha (satisfaction) of seeing the adversary's suffering. Thanks for replying. kom 4518 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 11:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line Dear Robert, May you be the first to get enlightened [if not already], for your efforts. with metta, des >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear sarah, >So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting >others on gradually >http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm >robert > 4519 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 9:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line Well thank you very much Des. And may I wish the same to you. Of course, it isn't too difficult putting someone's translation on a website. The one who typed it worked hard, though. Doing a translation- now that is really HARD work (I am sure). And comprehending the Dhamma is much harder again. Still there are many benefits on the way to full comprehension. And when there is kusala nothing seems onerous anyway. looking forward to your posts Des robert --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > Dear Robert, > > May you be the first to get enlightened [if not already], for > your efforts. > > with metta, > des > > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Visuddhimagga on-line > >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Dear sarah, > >So far only the the first chapter is on-line. I'll be putting > >others on gradually > >http://www.abhidhamma.org/Visuddhimagga%20front.htm > >robert > > 4520 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 1:27am Subject: Re: dhamma online: a wonderful opportunity Dear Robert, I very heartily endorse Visudhimagga and other texts being placed online, including discussion groups and any other ways in which dhamma can be transmitted to people. The more access there is to dhamma, the more people will become interested in it, depending, of course, on their accumulations. But at least this way, more and more people can be exposed to it, and through studyof the various texts, which may be available only online for many, the conditions can be developed for satipatthana to arise. It is through the dsg that I was able to connect with Jack, O, and Amara and "find" Achaan Suchin. I am eternally grateful to the "miracle" of internet. Anomodhana to all of you who make it possible for dhamma to be spread to so many people and places, Betty __________________________ 4521 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 2:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Dear Robert, dear Victoria, dear group I am still in London and I get the chance to greet everybody and comment on this mail because I have been corresponding with Victoria off list and she has been most supportive and kind to me; she has just returned from a trip and hopefully we are going to meet soon before I depart. I welcome her to the list and send my best regards to this nice dhamma sister that as it happens I first met through the internet brotherhood for which I am grateful as well. Love and respect Cybele >>Dear group, >A member who hasn't posted on dsg yet sent me this and said I >could post it. >Robert, > > > > > > Many thanks for your reply. As someone whose principle > > > exposure to Dhamma > > > is via the internet, I must say how grateful I am to the >many > > > people who so > > > generously have shared their time, knowledge, texts etc. so >as > > > to make it > > > available to those who are ready but might not otherwise >have > > > had access. A > > > trip to Asia has not been possible for me (although I hope >to > > > go in the > > > next year or two- >The > > > scary thought is that without the internet I might have > > > remained even more > > > entangled in samsara. Therefore, as you see, I am a big > > > supporter of the > > > more the better. I can't help but feel that Dhamma is too > > > valuable to be a > > > commodity, although I certainly don't begrudge writers or > > > publishers > > > earning money so that they can carry on doing more. > > > > > > It was on the internet that I first read the Four Noble > > > Truths. I then went > > > to classes and learned of the Noble Eightfold Path from a > > > practicing > > > Buddhist Sri Lankan professor (taught free). I now go to > > > meditation class > > > at which free Dhamma books from Amaravati are regularly > > > distributed. > > > > > > I have good friends in Hong Kong who keep asking me to >visit, > > > so maybe I > > > will be coming that way sometime. > > > > > > Many thanks for your thoughts. > > > Metta, > > > Victoria > > > > 4522 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:31am Subject: Dosa-lobha(Re: Quiz Dear Rob, You wrote: > For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya for > insight to arise. Are you sure? 4523 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:36am Subject: Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz Dear Rob, You wrote: > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van Gorkoms > "conditions: > We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome habits over > the course of this infinite samsara. By pakatupanissaya paccaya > the unwholesome accumulations condition akusala citta > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy to see. > However, also akusala(unwholesome) can condition > kusala(wholesome) . What is "habit"? 4524 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:42am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Isn't BPS organized quite differently from PTS? After all, what salary do you suppose Bhikkhu Bodhi gets? And what royalties does Nanamoli get for his translation work? Is BPS a non-profit? I know their books seem expensive (but not compared to PTS!), but does the cost cover much more than the cost of typesetting, printing, and shipping books with small distributions? > p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma resources > on the net, I also think it's important to respect > copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can only > continue to support translation work and produce books > if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet will > encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no idea > about this. I think we have to just respect any > decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to > dipping into texts, but I can see the next generation > will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With the > severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would have > some immediate advantages!~ > > > 4525 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 7:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz Dear Dan, I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or unholsome habitual actions. Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four karmas that determine the quality of our next existence. [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate action [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual actions [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that can not be included in the above three. Hope that clarifies your question a little. metta, des --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Rob, > You wrote: > > > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van > Gorkoms > > "conditions: > > We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome > habits over > > the course of this infinite samsara. By > pakatupanissaya paccaya > > the unwholesome accumulations condition akusala > citta > > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy > to see. > > However, also akusala(unwholesome) can > condition > > kusala(wholesome) . > > What is "habit"? > 4526 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:56am Subject: Can dosa be a condition for insight? --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Rob, > You wrote: > > For instance if there is dosa now it can be arammana-paccaya > for > > insight to arise. > Are you sure? > dear Dan, I think it can. Dosa (aversion) is part of sankhara-khanda (aggregate of formations) and thus it is a paramattha dhamma. It should be comprehended as it is a daily reality (as fear, anger, boredom, irritation, slight discomfort of mind....). It is also part of the ayatanas - it is dhammayatanam. And a dhatu - dhammadhatu. The khandas, ayatanas and dhatus (aggregates, senses fields and elements) are the ways of classifying paramattha dhammas and they are the objects for insight. From the commentary to the Satipatthana sutta: "Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time amongst the mental objects of another's mind. Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood. ""(endquote) I had a conversation about this with a good friend sometime back: You wondered “if a mind filled with hatred” would be conducive to insight and awareness. First let us remember that mind is a concept. There are only namas and rupas. And namas are arising and passing away ceaselessly. I guess what you mean by a mind filled with hatred is either when we are very angry with someone or perhaps the case of a person who is often overwhelmed by hatred, who dwells hating others. There is much in the texts about the dangers of hatred and all of us – who are interested in Dhamma- have no problem in seeing the danger of it. Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I would like to examine our attitude to it and to the Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our attitude one that only wants to have “good” dhammas? If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool, equanimous, compassionate, insightful person. Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to perfecting this Dhamma idol. Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no matter what? If so then remember that hatred is another dhamma that arises and should be investigated. When hatred arises it is the asavas, the tendencies showing themselves. Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should accept it and study it? If we investigate we see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as “HE did that to ME” and “HE is bad”. In other words one of the co-conditions of hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha) that is lost in the world of concepts(pannati) (of “he” and “me” and “they”) . If one can investigate in this way one is learning much about the way things work; and that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one thinks in other ways such as “but in reality there is no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those aggregates that arose even one second ago have completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the air?” that there cannot be hatred at the exact same moments. And then we might think again, forgetting Dhamma, “but HE did that to ME” and see how again hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very simple example but perhaps it conditions some reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if we want to. There are so many other moments such as seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that arise too, that can be understood. This is understanding at the level of thinking only but it is still helpful. Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems, fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati? Then there are other namas arising. Their characteristic can’t be changed. ---------------- I wrote "we must remember that > hatred > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > investigated." > > .You replied "Yes, but I have some problems in facing > that. Sometimes it is easy to me, > but in another circumstances, I find myself lost in > the mud ...." This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage and search for ways other than the direct understanding of paramattha dhammas. The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is the real one, cannot make our life more difficult. I would say be glad when things get hard, when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when adhittha (determination) parami and patience parami can arise. They can support panna and then you may be able to see that akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be understood. This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.) If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we should know that this is suppression, to some degree . Even if we succeed we have missed the chance to really understand them. The other ways- even correct development of samatha- can only suppress at best. (Of course, samatha can be a very beneficial too- there is no rule that direct insight is the only type of kusala that should be developed- all types are to be encouraged) Vis XV163 “The perfect ones behave like lions. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the cessation of suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause.” In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the Bodhisatta thought “why do I always dwell expecting fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread while keeping the same posture that I am in when it comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had subdued that fear and dread…While I lay down that fear and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor sat down til I had subdued that fear and dread” Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not “my anger, my hate”. Satipatthana protects – it shows us the difference between concept and reality. It is because we take concepts such as people for real things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha dhamma. The path is simple and direct – the understanding of whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden attachment to self that thinks “I am understanding, this is my understanding’: easy not to see this. And hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to understand. Robert 4527 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Dan & others I'm wondering if there could be a sila aspect here. The skill and labour involved in translating/writing and arranging something for publication is something that is not given away unconditionally when the work is published. It seems to me appropriate to seek approval before publishing another's work on a website. Jon --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Isn't BPS organized quite differently from PTS? > After all, what salary > do you suppose Bhikkhu Bodhi gets? And what > royalties does Nanamoli > get for his translation work? Is BPS a non-profit? I > know their books > seem expensive (but not compared to PTS!), but does > the cost cover > much more than the cost of typesetting, printing, > and shipping books > with small distributions? > > > p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma > resources > > on the net, I also think it's important to respect > > copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can > only > > continue to support translation work and produce > books > > if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet > will > > encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no > idea > > about this. I think we have to just respect any > > decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to > > dipping into texts, but I can see the next > generation > > will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With > the > > severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would > have > > some immediate advantages!~ > > > > > > 4528 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 11:00am Subject: Copyright Hi all, I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which revolved around copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be the ownership of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies on the notion of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I accept that under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, and that no state would hesitate to use all means available to it to enforce compliance with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is wrong view. How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the notion of ownership. And what a tangled web is copyright. Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to those who have truly renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. Herman 4529 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dosa-lobha paccaya(Re: Quiz Des > I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or > unholsome habitual actions. > Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four > karmas that determine the quality of our next > existence. > [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action > [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate > action > [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual actions > [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that can > not be included in the above three. I think that Rob was talking in his post about habitual accumulations/tendencies, not habitual actions, when he said: > We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome habits over > the course of this infinite samsara. By pakatupanissaya paccaya > the unwholesome accumulations condition akusala citta > (unwholesome mindstate) now. As Rob said, it is these unwholesome accumulated tendencies (anusaya) that condition unwholesome citta (mental consciousness). The mental factor of cetana (intention) that accompanies such citta may be of the level of unwholesome kamma, or it may not. Jon 4530 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:14am Subject: Accumulations, habits Thank you Des. Another word for habit or accumulation is vassana (spelling?). Even arahants still have these. So there is the example of I think mahakaccana who used to jump over puddles in an unbecoming manner because he had many past lives as a monkey. Or another arahant who uses to address everyone as 'servant' because for so many lives he had been a highclass Brahmin. He had no bad intention, of course. Another word for wholesome accumulations from the past is pubbekata punaatta. The texts often mention accumulations: from the therigatha-atthakatha Theri Anopama (p178 of transltion by Pruitt) "she too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good in various lives as basis for release" (this phrase is repeated for many of the Nuns in the therigatha.) robert --- Chiong Desmond wrote: > Dear Dan, > I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or > unholsome habitual actions. > Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four > karmas that determine the quality of our next > existence. > [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action > [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate action > [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual actions > [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that can > not be included in the above three. > > Hope that clarifies your question a little. > > metta, > des > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > Dear Rob, > > You wrote: > > > > > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van > > Gorkoms > > > "conditions: > > > We have accumulated both wholesome and unwholesome > > habits over > > > the course of this infinite samsara. By > > pakatupanissaya paccaya > > > the unwholesome accumulations condition akusala > > citta > > > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly easy > > to see. > > > However, also akusala(unwholesome) can > > condition > > > kusala(wholesome) . > > > > What is "habit"? > > 4531 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright Complicated indeed is copyright when it comes to Dhamma, Herman. However, Buddhism does recognise ownership of material possesions. Monks are expelled from the order for taking even something worth a dollar or so. robert --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which > revolved around > copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be > the ownership > of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies > on the notion > of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I > accept that > under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, > and that no > state would hesitate to use all means available to it to > enforce compliance > with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. > > My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is > wrong view. > How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the > notion of > ownership. > And what a tangled web is copyright. > > Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. > Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to those who have > truly > renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. > > > Herman > 4532 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 0:35pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism Dear Herman, > -----Original Message----- > From: Herman Hofman > > Hi all, > > I have been pondering some of the recent > discussions which revolved around > copyright. In very broad terms, I understand > copyright to be the ownership > of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of > copyright relies on the notion > of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion > of self. I accept that > under the laws of most countries these ideas are > held sacred, and that no > state would hesitate to use all means available > to it to enforce compliance > with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. > > My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion > of self is wrong view. > How compounded then is the wrong view that > entertains the notion of > ownership. > And what a tangled web is copyright. > > Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. > Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to > those who have truly > renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. > > > Herman Indeed, if you perform such an analysis, there is no person, no possession, and therefore, performing any kind of deed toward that person or their posessions has no results since they don't exist. An obvious wrong view. I think the answer is in the cetana. If the cetana is akusala, and its strength conditions actual deed/speeches, then the results will be akusala-vipaka. Killing, stealing, committing adultery, bad speeches all obviously conditioned by akusala cetana, and hence will give bad results. kom 4533 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 1:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright Robert, Thank you for the reply and the information. Are monks allowed to have any material possessions? Somewhere in the back of my head I have this idea that they are allowed the bare minimum only. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Friday, 6 April 2001 11:55 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright >Complicated indeed is copyright when it comes to Dhamma, Herman. >However, Buddhism does recognise ownership of material >possesions. Monks are expelled from the order for taking even >something worth a dollar or so. >robert >--- Herman Hofman wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which >> revolved around >> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be >> the ownership >> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies >> on the notion >> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I >> accept that >> under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, >> and that no >> state would hesitate to use all means available to it to >> enforce compliance >> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. >> >> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is >> wrong view. >> How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the >> notion of >> ownership. >> And what a tangled web is copyright. >> >> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. >> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to those who have >> truly >> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. >> >> >> Herman >> >> 4534 From: Num Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits Hi Rob, I think you mean Ven.Sariputta, who liked to jump across the canal instead of using a bridge when he led monks on alms round. He also liked to hang his umbrella at the top of the tree not at the ground level. Some people asked the Buddha, was Ven.Sariputta really an arahant with those peculiar habits. The Buddha confirmed that he was but b/c he had taken many lifetimes as a monkey in the past so some engrained habits were still there. Regarding habits, I still cannot come up with clear answer. As I read Nina's writing on Paccaya, she mentioned Chanda cetasika in (sahajata)-adhipathi-paccaya, she said that "lobha is attached to the object it experiences, but it cannot accomplish it enterprise, it's is not a predominant factor. Chanda, zeal or wish to do, which accompanies lobha-mula-citta can be predominant factor in accomplishment of one's undertaking, " Chanda and viriya can be predominant in the accomplishment both in wholesome and unwholesome way. Then she talked about arammanadhipati-paccaya, she said that 2 dosa-mula-citta, 2 moha-mula-citta and dhkkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati b/c they are not desirable realities. I have to go to bed. I think anantarupanissaya-paccaya and pakatupanissaya-paccaya can also explain some part of accumulation and habit by paccaya explanation. If I have time I will look in Patthana for more detail. I think Kom is pretty good at explanation and cross-examination. Hope he will give me some input. A lot more to learn for me. Until later, Num 4535 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 2:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism Kom, I readily accept what you are saying. I always wonder what the world would like if everyone observed the precept to not take what is not given. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Friday, 6 April 2001 14:07 Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism >Dear Herman, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Herman Hofman >> >> Hi all, >> >> I have been pondering some of the recent >> discussions which revolved around >> copyright. In very broad terms, I understand >> copyright to be the ownership >> of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of >> copyright relies on the notion >> of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion >> of self. I accept that >> under the laws of most countries these ideas are >> held sacred, and that no >> state would hesitate to use all means available >> to it to enforce compliance >> with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. >> >> My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion >> of self is wrong view. >> How compounded then is the wrong view that >> entertains the notion of >> ownership. >> And what a tangled web is copyright. >> >> Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. >> Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to >> those who have truly >> renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. >> >> >> Herman > >Indeed, if you perform such an analysis, there is no person, >no possession, and therefore, performing any kind of deed >toward that person or their posessions has no results since >they don't exist. An obvious wrong view. > >I think the answer is in the cetana. If the cetana is >akusala, and its strength conditions actual deed/speeches, >then the results will be akusala-vipaka. Killing, stealing, >committing adultery, bad speeches all obviously conditioned >by akusala cetana, and hence will give bad results. > >kom > 4536 From: Howard Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Copyright Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/5/01 10:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman H writes: > Hi all, > > I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which revolved around > copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be the ownership > of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies on the notion > of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I accept that > under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, and that no > state would hesitate to use all means available to it to enforce compliance > with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. > > My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is wrong view. > How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the notion of > ownership. > And what a tangled web is copyright. > > Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. > Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to those who have truly > renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. > > > Herman > > ============================== So there's no self, and there's no ownership. Nonetheless, there is a precept against stealing, and theft presupposes ownership. In fact there *is* such a thing as ownership, not in an absolute sense, but in a conventional and relative one. When you or I work, producing something, it is *wrong* for another to take it from us on the grounds that we don't "really" own it, and, in fact, "you" and "I" are mere concepts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4537 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 1:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism Dear Herman, > -----Original Message----- > From: Herman Hofman > > I always wonder what the world would like if > everyone observed the precept > to not take what is not given. I think the Tipitaka/Commentaries mentioned such a world where people perfectly observe the five precepts. There is nothing to be taken because there is no ownership in the world: everybody can take anything they want. However, I believe Buddhas aren't born in that world, and are not inclined (???) to spread dhamma to such a world (why???). kom 4538 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 3:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits Thank you num. I have never have been good at names. rob --- Num wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I think you mean Ven.Sariputta, who liked to jump across the > canal instead of > using a bridge when he led monks on alms round. He also liked > to hang his > umbrella at the top of the tree not at the ground level. Some > people asked > the Buddha, was Ven.Sariputta really an arahant with those > peculiar habits. > The Buddha confirmed that he was but b/c he had taken many > lifetimes as a > monkey in the past so some engrained habits were still there. > > Regarding habits, I still cannot come up with clear answer. > As I read Nina's > writing on Paccaya, she mentioned Chanda cetasika in > (sahajata)-adhipathi-paccaya, she said that "lobha is attached > to the object > it experiences, but it cannot accomplish it enterprise, it's > is not a > predominant factor. Chanda, zeal or wish to do, which > accompanies > lobha-mula-citta can be predominant factor in accomplishment > of one's > undertaking, " Chanda and viriya can be predominant in the > accomplishment > both in wholesome and unwholesome way. Then she talked about > arammanadhipati-paccaya, she said that 2 dosa-mula-citta, 2 > moha-mula-citta > and dhkkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati b/c they are > not desirable > realities. > > 4539 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 6:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Very nice that you are meeting. Makes the internet a warmer place too. robert --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Robert, dear Victoria, dear group > > I am still in London and I get the chance to greet everybody > and comment on > this mail because I have been corresponding with Victoria off > list and she > has been most supportive and kind to me; she has just returned > from a trip > and hopefully we are going to meet soon before I depart. > I welcome her to the list and send my best regards to this > nice dhamma > sister that as it happens I first met through the internet > brotherhood for > which I am grateful as well. > > Love and respect > Cybele 4540 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 8:17pm Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Thanks, Robert. I was confusing "succession" of mental states with "conditioning" of mental states. Such a gem of a post! I feel terrible that I can't afford the time to give a proper reply, but I do want to make a few comments. You write: > Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I > would like to examine our attitude to it and to the > Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our > attitude one that only wants to have "good" dhammas? > If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think > weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool, > equanimous, compassionate, insightful person. > Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to > perfecting this Dhamma idol. The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger, say, the best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you described. Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to remember to be mindful. At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an absolute fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let him have graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I can't stand it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an unpleasant sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the sound. You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm hearing a sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound after it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears." Mark screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his dinner equanimously and peacefully. If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can be helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly rooted dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the dosa with something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else fails, suppressing is better than expressing. There is some danger in that though, because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it is not dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing. > Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no > matter what? Not me! > If so then remember that hatred > is another dhamma that arises and should be > investigated. > When hatred arises it is the asavas, the > tendencies showing themselves. Do you mean anusaya? I think of asava more as "moral intoxicant"--things that are more attractive and pernicious than hatred; things like lust and clinging to views that seem so "fun" but muddle the thinking so much (like alcohol). > Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should > accept it and study it? If we investigate we > see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as "HE > did that to ME" and "HE is bad". In other words one of > the co-conditions of hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha) > that is lost in the world of concepts(pannati) (of "he" and > "me" and "they") . If one can investigate in this way > one is learning much about the way things work; and > that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one > thinks in other ways such as "but in reality there is > no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those > aggregates that arose even one second ago have > completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the > air?" that there cannot be hatred at the exact same > moments. And then we might think again, forgetting > Dhamma, "but HE did that to ME" and see how again > hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very > simple example but perhaps it conditions some > reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if > we want to. There are so many other moments such as > seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that > arise too, that can be understood. Of course. > Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm > feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems, > fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good > or bad is all only nama and rupa. Of course. > can support panna and then you may be able to see that > akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely > dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be > understood. Of course. > This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be > crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful > emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas > they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them > with insight they become our friends. I think of sati, saddha, panya, samadhi, viriya more as "friends" and hatred (anger, etc.) as hindrances. In properly dealing with hindrances by cultivating friends, it is the FRIENDS that are the friends, not the hindrances. Dan 4541 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 8:22pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line : a good thing? Absolutely. That's why we have copyright laws, and that's why Napster is being shut down. > Dan & others > > I'm wondering if there could be a sila aspect here. > The skill and labour involved in translating/writing > and arranging something for publication is something > that is not given away unconditionally when the work > is published. It seems to me appropriate to seek > approval before publishing another's work on a > website. > > Jon > > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Isn't BPS > organized quite differently from PTS? > > After all, what salary > > do you suppose Bhikkhu Bodhi gets? And what > > royalties does Nanamoli > > get for his translation work? Is BPS a non-profit? I > > know their books > > seem expensive (but not compared to PTS!), but does > > the cost cover > > much more than the cost of typesetting, printing, > > and shipping books > > with small distributions? > > > > > p.s Although I really appreciate all dhamma > > resources > > > on the net, I also think it's important to respect > > > copyright laws. Organisations like the PTS can > > only > > > continue to support translation work and produce > > books > > > if copies are sold. It maybe that the internet > > will > > > encourage sales and give a boost, but I have no > > idea > > > about this. I think we have to just respect any > > > decisions publishers make on this. I'm so used to > > > dipping into texts, but I can see the next > > generation > > > will be a lot more used to dipping on line. With > > the > > > severe shortage of space in Hong Kong, this would > > have > > > some immediate advantages!~ > > > > > > 4542 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 9:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Dan, Really enjoyed your examples. Comments below. --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Thanks, Robert. I was confusing "succession" of mental states > with > "conditioning" of mental states. > > Such a gem of a post! I feel terrible that I can't afford the > time to > give a proper reply, but I do want to make a few comments. > > The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When > consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger, > say, the > best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you > described. > Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to > remember > to be mindful. > > At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an > absolute > fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let > him have > graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were > advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His > > five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I > can't stand > it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an > unpleasant > sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the > sound. > You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm > hearing a > sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound > after > it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears." > Mark > screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his > dinner > equanimously and peacefully. Wow- teaching a five-year old the rudiments of satipatthana! I'm still learning those lessons myself. Thanks. - I have tried similar with my children. It really does have a good effect but I find they need to be reminded again and again and again- just like me. (and just as you said the hard part is remembering to be mindful). This actually reminds me of when my eldest daughter Mei-ling (now 12)was a baby. I tell you it was a shock to the system in the first few months. In those days I had been used to a quiet, introspective life and the demands of a VERY vocal being was unsettling. That is until I realied that sound was only sound. Then she became my meditation master and I really appreciated her reminders. > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can > be > helpful. I fully agree. I think we shouldn't make rules on this matter. We have to learn to be flexible and understand our accumulations. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly > rooted > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the > dosa with > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). For sure! If all else fails, > suppressing > is better than expressing. There is some danger in that > though, > because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it > is not > dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing. Right. > > > Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no > > matter what? > Not me! Hey, isn't modesty a virtue of high order in Buddhism. > > > If so then remember that hatred > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > investigated. > > When hatred arises it is the asavas, the > > tendencies showing themselves. > > Do you mean anusaya? I think of asava more as "moral > intoxicant"--things that are more attractive and pernicious > than > hatred; things like lust and clinging to views that seem so > "fun" but > muddle the thinking so much (like alcohol). You're right, I should have said anusaya. While we're on this topic: The asava (intoxicants)are kamasava (sensuous desire), bhavasava(becoming) ditthasva(wrong view) ignorance(avijjasava).. At the stage of sotapanna ditthasava is eradicated, but the other 3 remain. The anusaya (latent tendencies)are: kamaraganusaya (desire for sensual pleasure) patighanusaya(aversion), mananusaya(conceit), dittanusaya(wrong view), vicikicchanusaya(doubt) bhava-raga anusaya(desire for becoming), avijjaanusaya(ignorance). A sotapanna has eliminated wrong view and doubt among this set of defilements. The visuddhimagga (xxii60)- "it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies(anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desire etc. again and again...' Nina van Gorkom in Cetasikas writes "the latent tendencies are inveterate, that is they are firmly established for a long time, obstinate, hard to eradicate." Robert 4543 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ownership & Buddhism Dear Herman and Kom, >> From: Herman Hofman >> >> I always wonder what the world would like if >> everyone observed the precept >> to not take what is not given. I think this would be a world where the average human life span is 80,000+ years (more below). >I think the Tipitaka/Commentaries mentioned such a world >where people perfectly observe the five precepts. There is >nothing to be taken because there is no ownership in the >world: everybody can take anything they want. However, I >believe Buddhas aren't born in that world, and are not >inclined (???) to spread dhamma to such a world (why???). There is a table in I.B. Horner's translation of the Buddhava.msa, _Chronicle of Buddha_, p. xxxii that gives the normal life span of humans then extant when each of the 25 Buddhas from Diipankara to Gotama arose. I give just a summary as follows: 9 buddhas - 100,000 year human life spans 8 buddhas - 90,000 1 buddha - 80,000 1 buddha - 70,000 2 buddhas - 60,000 1 buddha - 40,000 1 buddha - 30,000 1 buddha - 20,000 1 buddha - 80-100 (Gotama) According to DN XXVI, Cakkavatti-siihanaada-sutta, stealing first arose when the normal life span of humans was 80,000 years or less. So that means at least 17 of the last 25 buddhas arose in a world where stealing was unknown. The sutta suggests that the next Buddha, Metteyya, will appear in a world when the normal human lifespan will be 80,000 years. It takes an intermediate period (antarakappa) for the human lifespan to decline from 100,000+ years down to 10 and back. 20 such periods make up 1 great aeon. I think it's generally understood that the current human condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main contributor to the decline of the human lifespan. Best wishes, Jim A. 4544 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 6, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim) Hi Jim, I enjoyed your post on lifespans and whatnot! I do have a question, though. You wrote: "I think it's generally understood that the current human condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main contributor to the decline of the human lifespan." It sure seems like we are in a state of moral decline (esp. in the West), but it seems even clearer that human lifespans are increasing. Which of these perverted perceptions is the more wrong? Or is it just that there is some variation in the correlation? Or are we missing some important explanatory variables? Dan 4545 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:10am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? (Robert) Boy, that bhava-raga anusaya is a difficult one. A number of years ago, I didn't think it was quite the problem it is for THIS confluence of aggregates. Most of the time it just arises and causes problems, but sometimes it is recognized more clearly. How's that for a cryptic post? 4546 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:14am Subject: D-L paccaya(Re: Quiz)[Jon] I can see "bad habits" as anusaya, but what about "good habits"? I'm just trying to understand what "habits" and "accumulations" are... > As Rob said, it is these unwholesome accumulated > tendencies (anusaya) that condition unwholesome citta > (mental consciousness). The mental factor of cetana > (intention) that accompanies such citta may be of the > level of unwholesome kamma, or it may not. > > Jon 4547 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:23am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Time Scale Dear Jim, On the topics of timescale, do you have a table of what the timescale in the Tipitaka equate to in human years: kappa: antarakappa: asankaya (sp?): I heard from A. Santi the following definitions: kappa: if you have a marble the size of 7 cubic kilometers (1 cubic yoja), use a thin silk rag, wipe the marble every 100 years. When the marble all disappears, that's 1 kappa. asankaya: (10^100) 10 to the 100 years. I believe when you and Roberts say "aeon", it means asankaya. It this correct? kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Anderson [mailto:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045176014237146202025149066101130125071026057192] > The sutta suggests that the next Buddha, > Metteyya, will appear in a world > when the normal human lifespan will be 80,000 > years. It takes an > intermediate period (antarakappa) for the human > lifespan to decline from > 100,000+ years down to 10 and back. 20 such > periods make up 1 great aeon. I > think it's generally understood that the current > human condition is in a > state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main > contributor to the decline > of the human lifespan. > 4548 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 0:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim) I loved the post too, thanks jim. On dan's question I think 2500 years(since the Buddha died) is a brief moment in terms of an aeon and so there hasn't been enough time for the decline to show up much yet. As a statistics pundit, Dan, you probably lecture your students on how dips and upsurges can obscure a longer trend. Even so there was a monk in the Buddhas day who lived to be 160 - so the further limits of human life might already be lower. NOTE: this is all my PURE speculation. It may be/probably is misleading. robert --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Hi Jim, > I enjoyed your post on lifespans and whatnot! I do have a > question, > though. > > You wrote: "I think it's generally understood that the current > human > condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the > main > contributor to the decline of the human lifespan." > It sure seems like we are in a state of moral decline (esp. in > the > West), but it seems even clearer that human lifespans are > increasing. > Which of these perverted perceptions is the more wrong? Or is > it just > that there is some variation in the correlation? Or are we > missing > some important explanatory variables? > > Dan > 4549 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 4:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Time Scale Dear Kom, >On the topics of timescale, do you have a table of what the >timescale in the Tipitaka equate to in human years: > >kappa: >antarakappa: >asankaya (sp?): The last one should be asankheyya or asankhyeyya (an incalculable period). >I heard from A. Santi the following definitions: >kappa: if you have a marble the size of 7 cubic kilometers >(1 cubic yoja), use a thin silk rag, wipe the marble every >100 years. When the marble all disappears, that's 1 kappa. >asankaya: (10^100) 10 to the 100 years. This is similar to the Pabbata-sutta (SN XV.5) but in this sutta it is rubbing a mountain a yojana in height once every 100 years with a Kasi cloth. The first 10 suttas of the Anamatagga-samyutta (SN XV) illustrate the span of a mahaa-kappa which is still longer. My favourite is the next sutta, the Saasapa-sutta, which takes a container a cubic yojana in capacity filled to the brim with mustard seeds. A man removes 1 seed every 100 years. The container would be empty before an aeon runs out. The nice thing about this sutta is that you could actually calculate in human years how long it would take to empty the container. You calculate how many mustards fill a litre by counting the seeds in a level quarter teaspoon (1 tsp = 5ml). Then figure out how many seeds fill a cubic yojana (1 yojana = 16 kms) based on it and mutilpy this by a 100. Does anyone have some mustard seeds in their kitchen cupboard and a quarter teaspoon? I generally understand the kappa to be the same as a mahaa-kappa. I don't have anything to go on to figure out how many mahaa-kappas are in an asankheyya but I have been thinking that the number must very high. The mahaa-kappa is divided into 4 shorter periods: sa.mva.t.ta, sa.mva.t.ta..t.thaayii, viva.t.ta, viva.t.ta..t.thaayii (see A ii 142, Vism XIII.29ff). The Buddha calls them the four incalculables (asankheyya-s) of a kappa. These incalculables are not the same incalculables as in the phrase that runs like 'four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons'. On page 236 of Narada's Manual of Abhidhamma it is stated that there are 3 kinds of kappas: antarakappa, asankheyyakappa, mahaakappa. "The interim period when the age-limit of human beings rises from 10 to an indefinite limit then falls to ten again is known as an antara kappa. Such twenty antara kappas equal one asankheyya kappa . . .". In my previous post I mentioned that 20 antarakappas = 1 mahaakappa which is incorrect. Also, I started from the 100,000+ years down to 10 and back which is going in the opposite direction to the Manual's note on the kappas. So an average length (in human years) of an antarakappa could be calculated by dividing the number of mustard seeds in the container by 80 and then mutiplying the result by 100. >I believe when you and Roberts say "aeon", it means >asankaya. It this correct? I don't know about Robert, but I generally think of a mahaakappa when just the word 'kappa' is spoken. And when you say 'asankheyya' I take it that you mean one of the four periods of a mahaakappa. Best wishes, Jim A. 4550 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Apr 7, 2001 5:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim) Dear Dan, >You wrote: "I think it's generally understood that the current human >condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main >contributor to the decline of the human lifespan." >It sure seems like we are in a state of moral decline (esp. in the >West), but it seems even clearer that human lifespans are increasing. >Which of these perverted perceptions is the more wrong? According to the sutta (DN XXVI) the human lifespan has been decreasing for a very long time. It's possible that we've already passed the low point and are back on the upswing but personally I think this is unlikely and the low point is still ahead of us. If we were on the upswing wouldn't there be more optimism about the world's future and a sense that the world is becoming less and less polluted? I'm not convinced that human lifespans are increasing over the long run. As Robert pointed out there was a bhikkhu in the Buddha's time that lived to be a 160. The commentaries contain information about a number of other monks living long lifespans of well over 100. I think the illusion of increasing lifespans in modern times is partly due to the progress of medical science. There's lots of money to be made by making people live longer & healthier lives. I would have to say that the perception of an increasing human lifespan during the present time is the one that is likely to be perverted if we go by what it says in the sutta. The perception of moral decline along with the decline of the human lifespan is supported by the sutta. The increase in morality along with an increasing lifespan is also supported. Moral decline along with increasing lifespan is not supported. >Or is it just that there is some variation in the correlation? >Or are we missing some important explanatory variables? Sorry, I don't understand these two questions. Are these statistical questions? Best wishes, Jim A. 4551 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sun Apr 8, 2001 8:29am Subject: Re: Ownership & Buddhism (Jim) > >Or is it just that there is some variation in the correlation? Overall, the trend is for human lifespan to decrease as moral decay progresses, but are there still some short periods where lifespan increases? Is it like the overall trend of the stock market in the U.S. which has been up, up, up over the past 80 years, but some days it goes down and even some years it goes down. > >Or are we missing some important explanatory variables? Perhaps other factors go into human lifespan (like advances in medicine or improved food supply or better sanitation or better prenatal care or technology easing the demands of 14 hour back breaking labor etc.) that counteract the effects of moral decay... 4552 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 7:46am Subject: surfing, statistics and sasana Dear friends, We're enjoying catching up in a Sydney internet cafe...I was reflecting in the surf this morning (the sea variety) that MAYBE with all the web activity we can at least help there to be a little upswing or a minor correction in that very long downward trend of interest and understanding of the Buddha's teachings...(even if when viewed as an aeon, it wouldn't register at all.... Anyway, all we can do is our best to develop more understanding and help others do the same and not think or worry too much about the long-term trends and statistics which we have no control over. Best wishes and thanks for all the good messages, Sarah p.s. Please remember when replying to messages on dsg to cut off parts which are not relevant. Most of us forget sometimes, I know. ANTONY- pls send me yr tel no OFF-LIST to contact re meet-up 4553 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 9:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] surfing, statistics and sasana Sarah, You were in the surf this morning? Ever heard of unpleasant bodily feeling :-) ??? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:17 Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] surfing, statistics and sasana > >Dear friends, > >We're enjoying catching up in a Sydney internet >cafe...I was reflecting in the surf this morning (the >sea variety) that MAYBE with all the web activity we >can at least help there to be a little upswing or a >minor correction in that very long downward trend of >interest and understanding of the Buddha's >teachings...(even if when viewed as an aeon, it >wouldn't register at all.... > 4554 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 3:29pm Subject: The Monthly Harvest Free Buddhist E-Zine We Cordially invite all to subscribe to The Weekly Harvest Free Buddhist E-Zine ! The Monthly Harvest E-Zine is a Buddhist inspired free international e-zine hosted by Singapore's Panna Youth Centre- A Buddhist Based Youth Organisation. We attempt to provide a montly dosage of Buddha-dhamma with inspirational stories, scripture quotations and other buddhist news, and it is Absoultely Free of Charge! Don't just believe, subscribe to us today and share this Good News with your friends and relatives as an effort to spread the Buddha-dhamma ! To subscribe, simply send an e-mail to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=197212113058078031217232228085229241039102083189013098114113048091051010099190191156009204035181 Your support is our Greatest Strength ! May you be well & happy.......... The Monthly Harvest is a Evangelistic Outreach Programme brought to you by Singapore'a Panna Youth Centre's Cyber Ministry ! Please forward this mail to others and let the Grace of Lord Buddha touch their Lives today ! Buddha says "He who sees the Truth sees me" - Thus said 3:91 Visit http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/prajna today ! 4555 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] surfing, statistics and sasana Herman, different moments....actually there were more than a few of the unpleasant ones when I first 'took the plunge' and this is interesting because as we have discussed recently, these cannot be direct object for lobha and yet the lobha kept me in the water.....so there were pleasant ones in between and also of course so many visible objects, sounds, smells and so many, many concepts to conditon lobha, so that by the time I came out, I'd forgotten about the unpleasant bodily feeling. But this afternoon, on the otherhand, it had turned really cool, which was no deterrent to Jon's lobha, but was enough to let the story about unpleasant bodily feeling win out in my case.... Thanks for the concern! ;-) Sarah --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Sarah, > > You were in the surf this morning? Ever heard of > unpleasant bodily feeling > :-) ??? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 4556 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] D-L paccaya(Re: Quiz)[Dan] Dan --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > I can see "bad habits" as anusaya, but what about > "good habits"? I'm > just trying to understand what "habits" and > "accumulations" are... A good question. A 'habit' is something that we habitually do, but the reason we do it habitually is because we have the tendency to do it, ie. we have 'accumulated' that tendency. For example, the reason why someone, say, loses their temper easily over a particular situation, and as a result uses harsh language, must lie in the habits of the past and the fact that the mental factors which accompanied those 'habits' have been accumulated in the citta (moment of consciousness). It is not only habits of action in the usually understood sense that are accumulated. Preferences as to taste, colour etc are also a manifestation of the accumulation of past likes and dislikes that, when not manifest (ie. most of the time), lie dormant in the citta - hence the term 'latent' tendency. 'Good habits' are similarly accumulated and lying dormant unless there are conditions for their manifestation. They are not, however, called 'anusaya' (I'm not aware of any particlar term for them). 'Habits' and 'accumulations' can be seen as slightly different aspects of the same phenomenom. Jon 4557 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:29pm Subject: Visuddhimagga update Dear Teng and Group, I received this letter from venerable Bodhi today. ""Dear Mr. Kirkpatrick, Thank you for your e-mail. General BPS policy is to allow other websites to put Wheels and Bodhi Leaves on the Web (with our informed permission), but not full-size books. You may use a few pages of "Path of Purification" for your Website"" He then goes on to say that putting several chapters on the web would go against their policy. I readily accept this and have already modified the Visuddhimagga page on abhidhamma.org . I also much appreciate Teng bringing up the issue, which lead to me contacting ven. Bodhi earlier than I had intended on this matter. I am still greatly indebted to the kind typist who worked so long and hard and who allowed me to put it on my site. I hope this doesn't cause her any embarrassment. Robert 4558 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:39pm Subject: past wholesome accumulations --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: . > > 'Good habits' are similarly accumulated and lying > dormant unless there are conditions for their > manifestation. They are not, however, called > 'anusaya' (I'm not aware of any particlar term for > them). > > Jon, one of the pali terms for past wholesome accumulations is 'pubbekata punnata'. I don't know if this is a blanket term covering all wholesome accumulations but it is often used to indicate meritorious deeds done in the past. robert 4559 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 8:54pm Subject: Re: Copyright --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 4/5/01 10:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Herman writes: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have been pondering some of the recent discussions which revolved around > > copyright. In very broad terms, I understand copyright to be the ownership > > of an idea. If this is so, then the notion of copyright relies on the notion > > of ownership, which in turn relies on the notion of self. I accept that > > under the laws of most countries these ideas are held sacred, and that no > > state would hesitate to use all means available to it to enforce compliance > > with the ideas of copyright, ownership, self. > > > > My understanding of the Dhamma is that the notion of self is wrong view. > > How compounded then is the wrong view that entertains the notion of > > ownership. > > And what a tangled web is copyright. > > > > Anumodana to those who spread Dhamma. > > Double Anumodana with Anumodana on top :-) to those who have truly > > renounced and spread Dhamma without strings attached. > > > > > > Herman > > > > > ============================== > So there's no self, and there's no ownership. Nonetheless, there is a > precept against stealing, and theft presupposes ownership. In fact there *is* > such a thing as ownership, not in an absolute sense, but in a conventional > and relative one. When you or I work, producing something, it is *wrong* for > another to take it from us on the grounds that we don't "really" own it, and, > in fact, "you" and "I" are mere concepts. > > With metta, > Howard) Dear all, I think Kom is right in pointing out the abhisankhara, namely cetana, which is chief of all citasika except for vedana and sanna. In relation to ownership and copyright, what is the cetana in conventional and paramattha terms? I think it is a complicated and lengthy matter, but my opinion is that in most cases of stealing or copyright violation is when in conventional terms one wants to possess something that belongs to someone else. The implication is that the owner had acquired it without violating the precepts which allows a certain society to function smoothly. Strong lobha could lead to theft, and without the self there could be no lobha. Which is why in certain societies where the precepts are perfectly kept there would be no need for any rules. But then only the sotapanna and upwards keep the five precepts naturally and permanently, and they are assured of nibbana in the relatively 'near' future. In fact who owns the copyright to the dhamma? By rights it seems to belong to the Buddha and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to all those who study it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would desire knowledge. Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, prove it for oneself and those with panna will be able to experience it', or something to that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- Please excuse my inadequate Pali)? The only reason that the publishers might want to worry about copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that whomever wanted to distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to the misunderstanding of the texts. Otherwise those who wish to make any material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, even power of control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the dhamma, is, as the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. There seems to be clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is certainly no one's or group's personal property since even by convention the original owner certainly took pains to distribute it indiscriminately. No matter how I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, to proclaim copyright or ownership for this material in particular,unlike songs and books or other intellectual treasure, except in order to check that the contents are exactly as the writer of the explanation intended, if not the original teacher intended. From personal experience, people who see the value of the teachings will come forward and help with the distribution and expenses necessary without anyone asking them to. Our website for example is sponsored by someone who has never asked to be mentioned or to advertise the several companies affiliated, (though we might be giving them a 'link to the sponsor' soon). I have confidence that the dhamma will be reached given the right conditions, and we should try to help as many people to benefit from it as we have as best we can. This does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help with the costs of book printing as they are able. If the publishers wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to contribute to the printing of free books it should be their prerogative. On the other hand a free book should really be freely distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana again, also especially with Nina who has never had a thought about copyright gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still witness. The rest, as Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations and the times we live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other factors come into consideration even in matters of the dhamma. Just some thoughts, Amara 4560 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 9:20pm Subject: Re: Copyright > On the other hand a free book should really be freely > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana again, also > especially with Nina who has never had a thought about copyright > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still witness. I'm sorry I should have also mentioned Alan and his Zolag; who published Nina's beautiful hardcover and other books one can order at I am sure lower than cost prices in England, as well as presented the first dhamma website with Nina's and the foundation's books. He also kindly helped DhammaStudy.com get started, despite his very busy schedule, anumodana in your great kusala, Alan! Amara 4561 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 10:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations Dear Robert, Thank you very much for the book: reality and concepts by SB. I truly appreciate your kindness and generosity. metta, des 4562 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Yes. metta, des --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Dan, > Really enjoyed your examples. Comments below. > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > Thanks, Robert. I was confusing "succession" of > mental states > > with > > "conditioning" of mental states. > > > > Such a gem of a post! I feel terrible that I can't > afford the > > time to > > give a proper reply, but I do want to make a few > comments. > > > > The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. > When > > consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as > in anger, > > say, the > > best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as > you > > described. > > Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard > part is to > > remember > > to be mindful. > > > > At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was > having an > > absolute > > fit, screaming and screaming because his parents > wouldn't let > > him have > > graham crackers before eating some real food (the > g.c.'s were > > advertised as containing "Less sugar than most > cookies!"). His > > > > five-year-old brother started getting pretty > irritated: "I > > can't stand > > it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There > is an > > unpleasant > > sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you > react to the > > sound. > > You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say > 'Hmmm. I'm > > hearing a > > sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens > to that sound > > after > > it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes > my ears." > > Mark > > screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt > continued his > > dinner > > equanimously and peacefully. > > Wow- teaching a five-year old the rudiments of > satipatthana! I'm > still learning those lessons myself. Thanks. > - I have tried similar with my children. It really > does have a > good effect but I find they need to be reminded > again and again > and again- just like me. (and just as you said the > hard part is > remembering to be mindful). > This actually reminds me of when my eldest daughter > Mei-ling > (now 12)was a baby. I tell you it was a shock to the > system in > the first few months. In those days I had been used > to a quiet, > introspective life and the demands of a VERY vocal > being was > unsettling. That is until I realied that sound was > only sound. > Then she became my meditation master and I really > appreciated > her reminders. > > > > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then > diversion can > > be > > helpful. > > I fully agree. I think we shouldn't make rules on > this matter. > We have to learn to be flexible and understand our > accumulations. > > Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly > > rooted > > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to > replace the > > dosa with > > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). > > For sure! > > If all else fails, > > suppressing > > is better than expressing. There is some danger in > that > > though, > > because suppressing can give added strength to the > dosa if it > > is not > > dealt with with insight after the initial act of > suppressing. > > Right. > > > > > > > Are we keen enough that we will learn about > Dhamma no > > > matter what? > > > Not me! > > Hey, isn't modesty a virtue of high order in > Buddhism. > > > > > > If so then remember that hatred > > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > > investigated. > > > When hatred arises it is the asavas, the > > > tendencies showing themselves. > > > > Do you mean anusaya? I think of asava more as > "moral > > intoxicant"--things that are more attractive and > pernicious > > than > > hatred; things like lust and clinging to views > that seem so > > "fun" but > > muddle the thinking so much (like alcohol). > > You're right, I should have said anusaya. While > we're on this > topic: > The asava (intoxicants)are kamasava (sensuous > desire), > bhavasava(becoming) ditthasva(wrong view) > ignorance(avijjasava).. At the stage of sotapanna > ditthasava is > eradicated, but the other 3 remain. > > The anusaya (latent tendencies)are: kamaraganusaya > (desire for > sensual pleasure) patighanusaya(aversion), > mananusaya(conceit), > dittanusaya(wrong view), vicikicchanusaya(doubt) > bhava-raga > anusaya(desire for becoming), > avijjaanusaya(ignorance). > A sotapanna has eliminated wrong view and doubt > among this set > of defilements. The visuddhimagga (xxii60)- "it is > owing to > their inveteracy that they are called inherent > tendencies(anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as > cause for > the arising of greed for sense desire etc. again and > again...' > Nina van Gorkom in Cetasikas writes "the latent > tendencies are > inveterate, that is they are firmly established for > a long time, > obstinate, hard to eradicate." > > Robert > 4563 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits Thanks Robert. I have a weakness with Pali, and sometimes English too. metta, des --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Thank you Des. > Another word for habit or accumulation is vassana > (spelling?). > Even arahants still have these. So there is the > example of I > think mahakaccana who used to jump over puddles in > an unbecoming > manner because he had many past lives as a monkey. > Or another > arahant who uses to address everyone as 'servant' > because for so > many lives he had been a highclass Brahmin. He had > no bad > intention, of course. > Another word for wholesome accumulations from the > past is > pubbekata punaatta. > The texts often mention accumulations: > from the therigatha-atthakatha > Theri Anopama (p178 of transltion by Pruitt) > "she too performed meritorious deeds under previous > Buddhas and > accumulated good in various lives as basis for > release" (this > phrase is repeated for many of the Nuns in the > therigatha.) > robert > > --- Chiong Desmond wrote: > > Dear Dan, > > I guess it means wholsome habitual actions or > > unholsome habitual actions. > > Remeber "acinna" karma, which is one of the four > > karmas that determine the quality of our next > > existence. > > [1] Garuka karma - karma due to a weighty action > > [2] Asanna karma - karma due to death proximate > action > > [3] Acinna karma - karma due to the habitual > actions > > [4]Kattata karma - karma which embraces all that > can > > not be included in the above three. > > > > Hope that clarifies your question a little. > > > > metta, > > des > > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > > Dear Rob, > > > You wrote: > > > > > > > only. I wrote the following based on Nina van > > > Gorkoms > > > > "conditions: > > > > We have accumulated both wholesome and > unwholesome > > > habits over > > > > the course of this infinite samsara. By > > > pakatupanissaya paccaya > > > > the unwholesome accumulations condition > akusala > > > citta > > > > (unwholesome mindstate) now. This is fairly > easy > > > to see. > > > > However, also akusala(unwholesome) can > > > condition > > > > kusala(wholesome) . > > > > > > What is "habit"? > > > 4564 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Hi, Amara - In a message dated 4/9/01 10:51:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > Dear all, > > I think Kom is right in pointing out the abhisankhara, namely cetana, > which is chief of all citasika except for vedana and sanna. In > relation to ownership and copyright, what is the cetana in > conventional and paramattha terms? I think it is a complicated and > lengthy matter, but my opinion is that in most cases of stealing or > copyright violation is when in conventional terms one wants to possess > something that belongs to someone else. The implication is that the > owner had acquired it without violating the precepts which allows a > certain society to function smoothly. Strong lobha could lead to > theft, and without the self there could be no lobha. Which is why in > certain societies where the precepts are perfectly kept there would be > no need for any rules. But then only the sotapanna and upwards keep > the five precepts naturally and permanently, and they are assured of > nibbana in the relatively 'near' future. In fact who owns the > copyright to the dhamma? By rights it seems to belong to the Buddha > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to all those who study > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would desire knowledge. > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, prove it for oneself > and those with panna will be able to experience it', or something to > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- > Please excuse my inadequate Pali)? > > The only reason that the publishers might want to worry about > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that whomever wanted to > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to the > misunderstanding of the texts. Otherwise those who wish to make any > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, even power of > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the dhamma, is, as > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. There seems to be > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is certainly no one's or > group's personal property since even by convention the original owner > certainly took pains to distribute it indiscriminately. No matter how > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, to proclaim > copyright or ownership for this material in particular,unlike songs > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in order to check > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the explanation > intended, if not the original teacher intended. > > From personal experience, people who see the value of the teachings > will come forward and help with the distribution and expenses > necessary without anyone asking them to. Our website for example is > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be mentioned or to > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though we might be giving > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon). I have confidence that the dhamma > will be reached given the right conditions, and we should try to help > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best we can. This > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and > such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help > with the costs of book printing as they are able. If the publishers > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to > contribute to the printing of free books it should be their > prerogative. On the other hand a free book should really be freely > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana again, also > especially with Nina who has never had a thought about copyright > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still witness. The rest, as > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations and the times we > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other factors come into > consideration even in matters of the dhamma. > > Just some thoughts, > > Amara > ================================= The Dhamma is "free" in two senses: (1) The Buddha gave it freely, and (2) It is available for all to discover if they "merely" take the appropriate steps. However, in another sense, nothing produced by human effort is free because it requires that effort for its production, and that very effort is the price. The Dhamma can be made available to people only through human effort. Often that price is paid as dana by those who do the distributing, and frequently, even in the case of not-for-profit companies such as Wisdom Publications, the Pali Text Society, and the Buddhist Publication Society, the cost/price is shared among the providers and the recipients. If such companies didn't have the copyright laws to depend on, there is some likelihood that they would have to cut back on their services even to the extent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me that when an individual or company provides a delivery mechanism for some of the Dhamma (e.g., a book, with all the paper, covers, and binding expenses, as well as the advertising to make its existence known and the making of it available via direct order or through bookstores), value is being created *at a price*, and without legal protection for that product, the production of such value is seriously endangered. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4565 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 11:54pm Subject: Re: Copyright > > This > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help > > with the costs of book printing as they are able. If the publishers > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to > > contribute to the printing of free books it should be their > > prerogative. > ================================= > The Dhamma is "free" in two senses: (1) The Buddha gave it freely, and > (2) It is available for all to discover if they "merely" take the appropriate > steps. However, in another sense, nothing produced by human effort is free > because it requires that effort for its production, and that very effort is > the price. The Dhamma can be made available to people only through human > effort. Often that price is paid as dana by those who do the distributing, > and frequently, even in the case of not-for-profit companies such as Wisdom > Publications, the Pali Text Society, and the Buddhist Publication Society, > the cost/price is shared among the providers and the recipients. If such > companies didn't have the copyright laws to depend on, there is some > likelihood that they would have to cut back on their services even to the > extent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me that > when an individual or company provides a delivery mechanism for some of the > Dhamma (e.g., a book, with all the paper, covers, and binding expenses, as > well as the advertising to make its existence known and the making of it > available via direct order or through bookstores), value is being created *at > a price*, and without legal protection for that product, the production of > such value is seriously endangered. Dear Howard, I think we agree for the most part, as you will have seen rereading the excerpt from my message above yours, sorry if I did not convey the thought as clearly as I should have, as you did. I agree with the book printing part but not copyrighting on the web, which is almost impossible to control anyway, and I do think it is good exposure for the book especially long ones like for example the 'Summary' (550pp.) which no one had ever heard of until we put it on the website after which several people asked how they might obtain the book. I believe several people are like me, though I see the infinite usefulness of the web I prefer to have the book form especially if I refer to it often. We differ where I think that if people see how useful the dhamma is they will help to keep the production of books as well as other forms of distribution going, what is the use of legal protection if no one is interested in or even know about the material? Again I think the copyright law has its uses in keeping the printed versions as correct and true to the original as possible, too. Amara 4566 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:34am Subject: Dhammasangani Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there anywhere? The C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest... 4567 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:02am Subject: Re: Copyright > We differ where I think that if people see how useful the > dhamma is they will help to keep the production of books as well as > other forms of distribution going, what is the use of legal protection > if no one is interested in or even know about the material? Again I > think the copyright law has its uses in keeping the printed versions > as correct and true to the original as possible, too. Dear all, I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is the main kamma for those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for whatever akusala reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma knowledge in anyway. And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone also. We can never really tell except for our own citta and do the best we can in any given situation. After which it also depends on the vipaka of the individual whether, when and where, as well as how they find the Buddha's teachings. Amara 4568 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Hi, Amara - You have my apology! I went too quickly through your post, and that last paragraph didn't properly register. You are correct when you say that we are not so far apart on this issue. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/9/01 11:56:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > > > This > > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more material > > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in book form and > > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they should not help > > > with the costs of book printing as they are able. If the > publishers > > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers would like to > > > contribute to the printing of free books it should be their > > > prerogative. > > ================================= > > The Dhamma is "free" in two senses: (1) The Buddha gave it > freely, and > > (2) It is available for all to discover if they "merely" take the > appropriate > > steps. However, in another sense, nothing produced by human effort > is free > > because it requires that effort for its production, and that very > effort is > > the price. The Dhamma can be made available to people only through > human > > effort. Often that price is paid as dana by those who do the > distributing, > > and frequently, even in the case of not-for-profit companies such as > Wisdom > > Publications, the Pali Text Society, and the Buddhist Publication > Society, > > the cost/price is shared among the providers and the recipients. If > such > > companies didn't have the copyright laws to depend on, there is some > > likelihood that they would have to cut back on their services even > to the > > extent of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It seems to me > that > > when an individual or company provides a delivery mechanism for some > of the > > Dhamma (e.g., a book, with all the paper, covers, and binding > expenses, as > > well as the advertising to make its existence known and the making > of it > > available via direct order or through bookstores), value is being > created *at > > a price*, and without legal protection for that product, the > production of > > such value is seriously endangered. > > Dear Howard, > > I think we agree for the most part, as you will have seen rereading > the excerpt from my message above yours, sorry if I did not convey the > thought as clearly as I should have, as you did. I agree with the > book printing part but not copyrighting on the web, which is almost > impossible to control anyway, and I do think it is good exposure for > the book especially long ones like for example the 'Summary' (550pp.) > which no one had ever heard of until we put it on the website after > which several people asked how they might obtain the book. I believe > several people are like me, though I see the infinite usefulness of > the web I prefer to have the book form especially if I refer to it > often. We differ where I think that if people see how useful the > dhamma is they will help to keep the production of books as well as > other forms of distribution going, what is the use of legal protection > if no one is interested in or even know about the material? Again I > think the copyright law has its uses in keeping the printed versions > as correct and true to the original as possible, too. > > Amara > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4569 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:43am Subject: Re: Copyright Dear Howard, It's quite all right, happens to me all the time! I'm glad we agree on some things, although arguments can be kind of fun, too, Amara Signing off for a few more days- bye for now, A. 4570 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits Dear Rob, I thought it might interest you. Ten kinds of Vipassana nana: 1- Sammasana nana: Realization of Annicca, dukkha, annata in mind and matter 2- Udayabbhaya nana: Realization of the beginning and end of Arammana 3- Bhanga nana: After being aware of the disappearance of an arammana, second mind is aware of the disappearnace of the first mind [I call this the 2nd mind observing back the 1st mind; and some people have qusetioned my nana on this; I will explain at some later time] 4- Baya nana: becoming frightful from the realization that both the knowing mind and the sense objects are all passing away 5- Adinava nana: Realization that everything in nature is faulty and defective, because they all dissolve so rapidly 6- Nibbida nana: Increasing awareness of the unattractiveness and boringness of the things of nature 7- Muncitukamyata nana: Increasing awareness of looking forward to escape from the sufferings of the nature 8- Ptisankha nana: a cautious contemplation is made with utmost anxiousness for escape from suffering with an increased re-realization of anicca, dukkha and annata 9- Sankuharupekkha nana: the prior contemplation [8] becomes strengthened, automatic, and proceeds on its own like a machine; it proceeds with equanimity 10- Anuloma nana: while such realization is going on automaticlly with equanimity, the speed at which the new knowledge is gained goes on fast and active and the new knowledge advances with a big rush towards a noble path known as " Vutthana-magga"; the whole process is called, "Vutthana'gamini vipassana nana" This special knowledge that appears with the realization that physical and mental phenomena which occurs at the six sense-doors momentarily are impermanent, suffering and not self [annatta]. Th eknowledge that arises at the last moment is "Anuloma nana" which consists of three javanas, impulse moments, called: - parikamma [preparation] - upacara [aaproach] - anuloma [adaptation Anuloma nana transforms mind to become qualified to enter the threshold of Nirvana. Anumordana, metta, des >From: Fierke >Subject: Re: [Triplegem] Re: kinds of wisdom! >Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:09:25 -0400 > >Please do. >Thank you and kindest regards. > >Chiong Desmond wrote: > > > Thanks for the information. > > > > A successful vipassana meditation can lead one to > > attain ten kinds of wisdom called vipassana nana. > > I can expand on the ten kinds of wisdom if anyone is > > interested. > > > > metta, > > des > > --- Soe wrote: > > > Dear Des, > > > > > > There are two kinds of wisdom and two kinds of > > > meditations. For > > > samatha meditation it is for worldly wisdom and > > > knowledge. When we > > > study, if we read the books again and again(in some > > > case, with the > > > outside help), we will understand the worldly > > > knowledge and worldly > > > wisdom. The basic need is concentration. > > > > > > For vipassana meditation, it is for liberation and > > > for wisdom of > > > liberation. It is not the same as samatha meditation > > > or worldly > > > wisdom. The basic need is mindfulness. > > > > > > With the samatha concentration, we can get worldy > > > knowledge. It will > > > always be followed by science. But, new and more > > > advanced experiment > > > will shape the old scientific findings and we will > > > become more > > > accurate about the things we study. > > > > > > For the vipassana mindfulness, I don't know details > > > that much. But, > > > its wisdom is for liberation. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Soe K. Thu. > > > >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations, habits >Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:38:02 -0700 (PDT) > >Thank you num. I have never have been good at names. >rob >--- Num wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > I think you mean Ven.Sariputta, who liked to jump across the > > canal instead of > > using a bridge when he led monks on alms round. He also liked > > to hang his > > umbrella at the top of the tree not at the ground level. Some > > people asked > > the Buddha, was Ven.Sariputta really an arahant with those > > peculiar habits. > > The Buddha confirmed that he was but b/c he had taken many > > lifetimes as a > > monkey in the past so some engrained habits were still there. > > > > Regarding habits, I still cannot come up with clear answer. > > As I read Nina's > > writing on Paccaya, she mentioned Chanda cetasika in > > (sahajata)-adhipathi-paccaya, she said that "lobha is attached > > to the object > > it experiences, but it cannot accomplish it enterprise, it's > > is not a > > predominant factor. Chanda, zeal or wish to do, which > > accompanies > > lobha-mula-citta can be predominant factor in accomplishment > > of one's > > undertaking, " Chanda and viriya can be predominant in the > > accomplishment > > both in wholesome and unwholesome way. Then she talked about > > arammanadhipati-paccaya, she said that 2 dosa-mula-citta, 2 > > moha-mula-citta > > and dhkkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati b/c they are > > not desirable > > realities. > > > > > > 4571 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 3:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Hope you will forgive for disagreeing. My humble apologies. metta, des --- Amara wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > It's quite all right, happens to me all the time! > > I'm glad we agree on some things, although arguments > can be kind of > fun, too, > > Amara > > Signing off for a few more days- bye for now, > > A. > 4572 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammasangani Dear dan, There is a burmese one which I have been thinking of ordering . I'll try to find details in the next few days. robert --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there > anywhere? The > C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest... > 4573 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:36am Subject: Re: Dhammasangani I must say, Robert, that my Pali is MUCH better than my Burmese! If you are talking about a good translation into English, by all means let me know some details. Thanks. Dan > Dear dan, > There is a burmese one which I have been thinking of ordering . > I'll try to find details in the next few days. > robert > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there > > anywhere? The > > C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest... > > 4574 From: Antony Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:56am Subject: Meeting the members Hello list I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They are here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and sounding. I met them infront of Sydney Town Hall. A very popular meeting spot, usually, but today the steps, normally crowded with people, were taped off due to some event occuring inside. It was probably a good thing because I was the only one standing around so I was easy to meet. We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the strange behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list, particularly ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are much stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our discussion. You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with Dharma sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal of things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the things that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others who are clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma. Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I say this so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more likely your perception than the intended reality. I am sure I am more capable of offending you. If you like to test me see me off line... only joking. I took J and S to my favourite bookshop, not far from the coffee shop we were at. This is the Adyar bookshop. It is owned by the Theosophical Society and have a fairly good Buddhist section. I have bought some good books there. I showed them the next item on my plan which is the Conze translation of the Larger MahaprajnaParamita sutra. Both S and J agreed it would be good for me to post large tracts from this sutra for the enjoyment of everyone here. Only joking those of you who are shaking in your philosophical booties. But I might mention it when appropriate. You know it is thought by some to be the first sutra committed to writing. possibly before the end of the millenium that Buddha lived in. That means BC or BCE to you and me. That's pretty amazing if it's true. Anyone know when the Asokan Pillars were erected? I think that was BC and they had the words of the Buddha chiselled into them didn't they? Anyway I know I am bordering on the unpostable and off topicness with this post But I thought it would at least be interesting to some. And I asked a question or two and mentioned the Dharma in an appropriate way so as to fall at least with a foot or a leg within the rules of posting. I haven't posted for a while but I read everyone elses posts regularly. After meeting Sarah and Jonathon I felt inspired to post something, so here I am posting it. May this post find you well, in your breathing in and in your breathing out. Antony Sydney Australia 4575 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhammasangani Dan, I'm disappointed, no Burmese language skills! Fortunately the book is in English: I just checked on Barnes and Noble It is translated by U kyaw Kine - 2volumes- at $96, available from their 'hard to get' store. But I think a cheaper set will be around somewhere (I'm sure not buying at that price). I haven't seen the translation so don't how much of an improvement it is over Davids work. Robert --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > I must say, Robert, that my Pali is MUCH better than my > Burmese! If > you are talking about a good translation into English, by all > means > let me know some details. > > Thanks. > > Dan > > > > Dear dan, > > There is a burmese one which I have been thinking of > ordering . > > I'll try to find details in the next few days. > > robert > > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > > Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there > > > anywhere? The > > > C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest... > > > > > > 4576 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Dear Antony, Your post made me laugh. Glad to hear you found Sarah and jon normal enough. I think so too. The asoka pillars were erected about 240 years after the buddhas death i.e two and a half centuries before christ. They are archaeological evidence for the veracity of the pali texts we have today. It was a surprise to oriental researchers when they deciphered some of the pillars and found that the quotes which claimed to come from the Tipitaka were word for word the same as those sections on the palm leaves in sri lanka that other researchers were translating. The pillars are wonderful to look at - I saw some on my india trip. robert --- Antony wrote: > > > Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and > sounding. . > We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the > strange > behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list, > particularly > ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are > much > stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our > discussion. > > You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with > Dharma > sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal > of > things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the > things > that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others > who are > clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma. > > Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not > untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I > say this > so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more > likely > your perception than the intended reality. 4577 From: Herman Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:13pm Subject: Re: Meeting the members Hi all, Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the national competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta. Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to speak Pali :-) Herman --- Antony wrote: > Hello list > > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They are > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. > 4578 From: mike nease Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:05pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten Hello, Wynn, --- wynn wrote: > Why does it take at least 7 days to be enlighten? > Why 7? You like interesting questions--here are a few for you: What's the difference between seven days and enlightenment? Aren't these both just ideas in your head? Liking and disliking, even of enlightenment and delusion--aren't these unskilled states, obstacles to enlightenment? When do unskilled states and enlightenment occur? Isn't it only in the present moment? What leads to the going down of unskilled states already arisen, the non-arising of unskilled states as yet unarisen, the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen and the continuation, development and perfection of skilled states already arisen ('enlightenment')? Isn't it just understanding? What leads to the arising of understanding? Isn't it (1) hearing the truth as taught by a Buddha, and (2) insight into the present moment? If you can perfectly understand what's arising and subsiding in the present moment, do you even have to wait seven days? If you don't understand what's arising and subsiding in the present moment, will seven billion aeons be enough? Hope you find these questions useful. mike 4579 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammasangani Yes ther is a Dhammasangani by U Kyaw Khine. I will send the book to you, and bill you[with 10% discount], if you like. Visit the web: www.dbcbuddhistbookstore.com/ if you are interested in looking for more. metta, des p.s.[Lidia -cc- is my secretary who can take care of the shipping for you] >From: "Dan Dalthorp" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammasangani >Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:34:39 -0000 > >Is there a good translation of Dhammasangani out there anywhere? The >C.A.F. Rhys Davids translation is not the greatest... > 4580 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members That is interesting. I wonder where it came from. You know the commentaries claim that Pali- or a dialect of it- is the oldest language in the world. In maori they have the word mana- which means pride. It has a positive connotation. robert --- Herman wrote: > Hi all, > > Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the > national > competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta. > > Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to > speak > Pali :-) > > Herman > > --- Antony wrote: > > Hello list > > > > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. > They > are > > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live > here. > > 4581 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations Dear des, Thank you also for your posts. And nice to see your Buddhist Bookstore. robert --- Chiong Desmond wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thank you very much for the book: reality and concepts > by SB. > I truly appreciate your kindness and generosity. > > metta, > des > --- 4582 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations Dear Robert, Please give me your address, and email to I will send you the book "Dhammasangani" by U Kyaw Khine [in English], free of charge. metta, des >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:17:31 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear des, >Thank you also for your posts. And nice to see your Buddhist >Bookstore. >robert >--- Chiong Desmond wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > Thank you very much for the book: reality and concepts > > by SB. > > I truly appreciate your kindness and generosity. > > > > metta, > > des > > --- 4583 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations Des, What can I say. This is a most sublime gift- the first book of the Abhidhamma. Of course I accept with great pleasure. Thank you so much Robert --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Please give me your address, and email to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=125128020150082031015199065056124253239105139218183041> > > I will send you the book "Dhammasangani" by U Kyaw Khine [in > English], > > free of charge. > > metta, > des > > 4584 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations Dear Rob, You are welcome. Don't forget to send the address to Lidia. metta, des >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] past wholesome accumulations >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) > >Des, >What can I say. This is a most sublime gift- the first book of >the Abhidhamma. Of course I accept with great pleasure. >Thank you so much >Robert > >--- Desmond Chiong wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > Please give me your address, and email to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=125128020150082031015199065056124253239105139218183041> > > > > I will send you the book "Dhammasangani" by U Kyaw Khine [in > > English], > > > > free of charge. > > > > metta, > > des > > 4585 From: Alex T Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:47am Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten Dear Mike, It's good to see you back. Anumodana, Alex Tran 4586 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Dear Alex, It always good to know you are around "watching". Let me share with you a saying from TAO. TAO says: When one speaks the truth or something good: 1/3 of the people appreciate it 1/3 of the people just don't care one way or another 1/3 of the people roll on the floor and laugh their heads off While we are serious in pursuing the truth, let's not be blinded by some humor. metta, des >From: Alex T >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:47:31 -0000 > >Dear Mike, > > It's good to see you back. > >Anumodana, >Alex Tran > 4587 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members Robert, Apparently, Parramatta is an aboriginal word meaning "place where the eels lie" or "head of the river" Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 22:35 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members >That is interesting. I wonder where it came from. You know the >commentaries claim that Pali- or a dialect of it- is the oldest >language in the world. In maori they have the word mana- which >means pride. It has a positive connotation. >robert >--- Herman wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the >> national >> competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta. >> >> Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to >> speak >> Pali :-) >> >> Herman >> >> --- Antony wrote: >> > Hello list >> > >> > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. >> They >> are >> > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live >> here. >> > 4588 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Hello list too, I suppose there is much worse than 'normal loking and sounding'...Antony had been given all sorts of warnings from friends about meeting 'internet friends' and it had been suggested to him that we should meet in a VERY PUBLIC place....so probably we had to seem pretty normal after that! We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go which made it all easy....(Actually, Rob, when I first rang him, he rather reminded me of you!) Enjoyed chatting about dhamma at the present moment, different accumulations, meditation, TNH and other religions, the good quality of this list (and Antony is obviously a list expert), work and colleagues and dhamma and books, to name some areas covered. There was much more agreement than disagreement. And yes, it's a super bookstore with quite a few Tipitaka translations (3 different translations of Digha Nikaya for a start!). Antony had bought his copy of Visuddhimagga here at an unbelievable reasonable price. Look f/w to seeing you next time, Antony, and please post all those drafts! We like hearing from you and now we have a face to go with them. Back to the surf today! Back to Hong Kong on Sunday. Best regards, Sarah p.s. Antony- I think your interest, study and consideration of dhamma and religions in general is very OUT OF the normal. Thank you for sharing it with us. Herman, p'haps you can come down to join us next time! Azita, it would be super to see you again too. --- Antony wrote: > Hello list > > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and > Jonathon. They are > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I > live here. > > Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking > and sounding. 4589 From: Alex T Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 6:35pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > Dear Alex, Dear Des, > It always good to know you are around "watching". I'm operated in the lurking mode for now! It's good to read you posts in this Group and others, too. > Let me share with you a saying from TAO. You have my total attention. > TAO says: > > When one speaks the truth or something good: > 1/3 of the people appreciate it > 1/3 of the people just don't care one way or another > 1/3 of the people roll on the floor and laugh their heads off I appreciate this saying very much. Hopefully, I belong to the first 1/3. Thank you. > While we are serious in pursuing the truth, let's not be blinded by > some humor. Thank you. I've always enjoyed your thoughtful and compassionate posts. I've learned a lot from yours and others'. It makes me appreciates the internet more and more. > metta, > des With Metta and Appreciation, Alex 4590 From: Jain History Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:07pm Subject: Bhagwan Mahavira and Goutam Buddha Dear Friends, Jai Jinendra! This is 2600th year of birth of Bhagwan Mahavir. Both Mahavira and Goutam Buddha were from Shramn tradition of ancient India. There mission was of same type, i.e.to open the doors of religion to everybody and to protest the vedic invansion to protest animal sacrifice in the name of religion, . Both of them lived in same period i.e. 6th century BCE and in same area i.e. Magadh, Bihar in India. One or two of their Chaturmas ( 4months of the rainy season) were at same town. But they did not meet each other.Why? Or we do not know about it? If you know anything about conections between Mahavir and Goutam Buddh, jains and buddhists etc. please let me know. Please send me the details on following address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045166020185042132090057065148100165094145149034234099031150166091061 Please also visit my website at: http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/ Thanks! Mahavir Sanglikar 4591 From: wynn Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:14pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten Hi Mike, Thanks for your answer and I agree with you but the Satipatthana Sutta says 7. This is what I don't understand? Thank you. 4592 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Dear Wyn, Do you know the 4 types of individual: ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta, mogallana, Khema and Bahiya who can attain even before a short discourse has finished. (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more details and it takes longer to attain. Both of the above types of individuals no longer exist. Anyone for the last thousand years(or there abouts) is either (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and could attain during this life, perhaps, if they practise correctly in accordance with the satipatthana sutta. (4) A Padaparama : Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen to many details and apply themselves correctly and diligently make the conditions for release in the next life or some future life after that. The commentary to the Satipatthana sutta notes (about the seven days): "But concerning the person of keen intelligence it was stated as follows: Instructed in the morning, he will attain in the evening; instructed in the evening, he will attain in the morning. " Robert > > Thanks for your answer and I agree with you but the > Satipatthana Sutta says > 7. > This is what I don't understand? > > Thank you. > 4593 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Hello Again, Wynn, "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. ... "If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return." If I understand it correctly, the sutta doesn't say that it takes 'at least' seven days--here I think the Buddha just uses 'seven days' (vs. seven years) somewhat arbitrarily to emphasize the efficacy of satipatthana vipassana bhavana. Does he also mean, in the first line cited above, that it takes 'at the most', seven years? I don't think so... In fact, though I can't cite one off the top of my head, I believe there are many instances of ordained and laypeople attaining various stages of enlightenment immediately on hearing the Buddha speak--also due to insight--with no 'seven-day waiting period'... Of course this all begs the question of all these people's attainments in prior existences to the one in which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes, days, years or aeons, don't you think? In fact, it does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate accumulated defilements. How much time has already been spent in the past? Not something we puthujanas can know, is it? Are you familiar with the simile of the adze handle? "Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle wore down this much, or yesterday it wore down that much, or the day before yesterday it wore down this much,' still he knows it is worn through when it is worn through. In the same way, when a monk dwells devoting himself to development, he does not know, 'Today my effluents wore down this much, or yesterday they wore down that much, or the day before yesterday they wore down this much,' still he knows they are worn through when they are worn through." Samyutta Nikaya XXII.101 Nava Sutta The Ship http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html mike --- wynn wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for your answer and I agree with you but the > Satipatthana Sutta says > 7. > This is what I don't understand? > > Thank you. > 4594 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members Ok - well 'where the eels lie' is a bit of a stretch if there is any pali basis for any aboriginal words. Head of river? I guess not also . robert --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Robert, > > Apparently, Parramatta is an aboriginal word meaning "place > where the eels > lie" or "head of the river" > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Date: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 22:35 > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting the members > > > >That is interesting. I wonder where it came from. You know > the > >commentaries claim that Pali- or a dialect of it- is the > oldest > >language in the world. In maori they have the word mana- > which > >means pride. It has a positive connotation. > >robert > >--- Herman wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Believe it or not , there is a football team playing in the > >> national > >> competition in Australia called ...... Parramatta. > >> > >> Maybe you don't have to be on the path (in the stream) to > >> speak > >> Pali :-) > >> > >> Herman > >> > >> --- Antony wrote: > >> > Hello list > >> > > >> > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and > Jonathon. > >> They > >> are > >> > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live > >> here. > >> > 4595 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Thank you Mike, Always much appreciate your input. --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > > If I understand it correctly, the sutta doesn't say > that it takes 'at least' seven days--here I think the > Buddha just uses 'seven days' (vs. seven years) > somewhat arbitrarily to emphasize the efficacy of > satipatthana vipassana bhavana. Does he also mean, in > the first line cited above, that it takes 'at the > most', seven years? I don't think so... > > In fact, though I can't cite one off the top of my > head, I believe there are many instances of ordained > and laypeople attaining various stages of > enlightenment immediately on hearing the Buddha > speak--also due to insight--with no 'seven-day waiting > period'... > > Of course this all begs the question of all these > people's attainments in prior existences to the one in > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes, > days, years or aeons, don't you think? In fact, it > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate > accumulated defilements. How much time has already > been spent in the past? Not something we puthujanas > can know, is it? > > Are you familiar with the simile of the adze handle? > > "Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice > sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle > of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle > 4596 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:54pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Dear Roberts, > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta, > mogallana, Khema and > Bahiya who can attain even before a short discourse has > finished. > > (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more > details and it takes > longer to attain. > > Both of the above types of individuals no longer exist. > Anyone for the last thousand years(or there > abouts) is either > > (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and > could attain > during this life, perhaps, if they practise correctly in > accordance with the satipatthana sutta. > > (4) A Padaparama : > Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen > to many details > and apply themselves correctly and diligently make the > conditions for release in the next life or some > future life > after that. Do you know what the source that mentioned the thousand year limitation? kom 4597 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 10:22pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten According to Ledi Sayadaw: 1- there are those that attain enlightenment by hearing the dharma directly form the buddha 2- those that attain enlightenment that hear the dharma from someone else 3- those that attain enlightenment through practice after hearing or learning the dharma 4- and those that will accumulate the good karma during this life time for hearing, learning and practising the dharma. metta, des --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Roberts, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta, > > mogallana, Khema and > > Bahiya who can attain even before a short > discourse has > > finished. > > > > (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more > > details and it takes > > longer to attain. > > > > Both of the above types of individuals no longer > exist. > > Anyone for the last thousand years(or there > > abouts) is either > > > > (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and > > could attain > > during this life, perhaps, if they practise > correctly in > > accordance with the satipatthana sutta. > > > > (4) A Padaparama : > > Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen > > to many details > > and apply themselves correctly and diligently make > the > > conditions for release in the next life or some > > future life > > after that. > > Do you know what the source that mentioned the > thousand year > limitation? > > kom > 4598 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 10:59pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, dear Kom, Very hard to find references to this. It might be even more than a thousand years since the first two types died out. The following are somewaht related. In the commentary to the vinaya under the Chullavagga, they predict about 1,000 years for each of the following (this is where the Buddha said because woman were admitted to the order it will last only 500 years - but by setting the 8 special rules this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the commentary explains): (a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have special powers) b) Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e) Sotapanna. The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly different way of classification. So these predictions are fairly approximate but they give us some indication of what to expect. This is a very short sasana (because of the extreme briefness of human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go on for much longer. robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Roberts, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > ) A Ugghatitannu : Ones like Sariputta, > > mogallana, Khema and > > Bahiya who can attain even before a short discourse has > > finished. > > > > (2) A Vipancitannu: These need to hear more > > details and it takes > > longer to attain. > > > > Both of the above types of individuals no longer exist. > > Anyone for the last thousand years(or there > > abouts) is either > > > > (3) A Neyya : These must hear many details and > > could attain > > during this life, perhaps, if they practise correctly in > > accordance with the satipatthana sutta. > > > > (4) A Padaparama : > > Cannot attain in this life . But if they listen > > to many details > > and apply themselves correctly and diligently make the > > conditions for release in the next life or some > > future life > > after that. > > Do you know what the source that mentioned the thousand year > limitation? > > kom > 4599 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:29pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, Dear Roberts, Thanks for looking this up. I have heard the story about the possible level of attainment of Patisambhida arahants, Sukkhavipassaka arahants, Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna before (approximately 1000 years each after the Buddha). According to this approximation, Anagami attainment is still possible in our (Buddha) millenium. I have also heard the debate why this seems to be at odd with the other saying that attainment will always be possible as long as the magga is still practiced. I only heard from you the first time that there is no longer Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu and was hoping that there are more to this story. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > [mailto:Robert Kirkpatrick] > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:00 AM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, > > > dear Kom, > Very hard to find references to this. It might be > even more than > a thousand years since the first two types died out. The > following are somewaht related. > > In the commentary to the vinaya under the > Chullavagga, they > predict about 1,000 years for each of the > following (this is > where the Buddha said because woman were admitted > to the order > it will last only 500 years - but by setting the > 8 special rules > this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the > commentary > explains): > (a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have > special powers) b) > Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e) > Sotapanna. > The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly > different way of classification. > > So these predictions are fairly approximate but > they give us > some indication of what to expect. > This is a very short sasana (because of the > extreme briefness of > human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go > on for much > longer. > robert