5000 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Dear Mike and howard, Thanks for telling us your feelings to date, Howard. I too don't limit myself to Abhidhamma. There are a lot of teachings in the Tipitaka and it is good to take a balanced approach. I'll just comment on mikes post: --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Howard, > > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > about the Dhamma is completely wrong. I don't think so Mike. There may`have been some important misunderstandings but not everything. > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > enlightenment. there are other types of kusala kamma that are not directly part of the eightfold path. > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > certain authors). Not exactly. You say passively but what about viriya(energy). Viriya arises to listen , to contemplate, to be patient, to be aware. It is not "our" viriya though. The hearing must be applied. Even at times when there is no Buddhasasana (and thus no deep teaching leading to enligtenment) there can be the accumulation of other parami - patience, generosity, metta..... These all support panna. They are needed too. > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. What about ariyadukkha -sacca (truth of suffering) and samudaya-sacca (truth of cause of suffering). these are present whether one knows of them or not. > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or > incomprehensible. Effort is either kusala or akusala. there may be kusala effort arising now that assists the other mental factors that are contemplating this. When there is a moment of sati that knows (even in a vague way) dhammas there is kusala viriya. It may be hard to know whether the viriya is kusala or akusala though. > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > referring to them are obsolete. 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the > Eightfold Path. We can do many types of kusala and still have an idea of self. This has to be carefully explained. > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto > akusala and micchaditthi. I think there are different levels of understanding. We can't expect to have no idea of self at all from the word GO. But hearing the Dhamma and seeing just how much self there is means that the idea of self is seen as a type of clinging. > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > akusala and micchaditthi. 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. No. It is so gradual. It is more of a mixed bag. There may be some awareness now of dhammas even if they are not clearly perceived as nama or rupa. Robert 5001 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cessation The very last section of the Visuddhimagga goes into this Erik. I asked nina similar questions many years back. There is a type of cessation that only those arahants and anagami who have mastery of jhana and whose path was that of samatha and insight (not sukkavipassaka) can attain. --- Erik wrote: > > Okay, here's an issue I've been somewhat onclear on for some > time > now. Cessation. Not nirodha as in kilesa-nirodha, but > "cessation" as > applies to anagamis who have arrived there via negating the > fourth > arupa-jahana as for example found in the Cula Sunnata Sutta. > > Is this "cessation" (other than the physiological activity of > being > in "suspended animation") synonymous with the actual realizion > of > nibbana? If this is the case it seems this would be through > phala > cittas; there would be no magga-cittas associated with this. > Is this > correct? If this is so then there would seem to be no > advantage to > cessation, given the phala cittas don't terminate kilesas. No BIG advantage as you say. But a damm good rest! They say that giving dana to one who has just arisen from this bears very high fruit. > > Because of this, I am curious what the stated purpose of > teachings > on "cessation" are. It is inessential to liberation from my > understanding, and the only argument I can see for it at > present is > that it is, like the jhanas, taught by the Buddha because it > is > conducive to well-being here and now (though jhanas are also > necessary in the case of non-sukkhavipassaka practitioners). Completeness of teaching. There were those who had the accumulations to attain this and so it should be taught. Not so important for us to think much about it. I > > suppose one could use it to make money pulling stunts like > getting > buried alive for a few weeks and living to tell about it. > > That reminds me, is there an equivalent term for > sukkhavipassakas for > jhana practitioners? I have seen these two approaches rendered > as > vipassana-yanika and samatha-yanika, but I have also seen the > use of > these two terms challenged on the basis of their not really > reflecting the way things are, given vipassana is a necessary > in all > cases. The term you use is correct and I think there is another term too. robert 5002 From: Num Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 6:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi Mike, Sound like you are given up. At time I felt like that as well. Hope you don't mind if I try to say something, just want to cheer you up. Come on, I am still floating in the big ocean, see no sign of land around, just want to say that "keep swimming." Our minds can trick us, if we give up, for sure we will be floating up and down in samsara ocean forever. I will be a little tricky in this reply, OK. > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > about the Dhamma is completely wrong. This may be a right understanding. Right understanding can see the difference between what is right and what is wrong. > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > enlightenment. > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > certain authors). > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or > incomprehensible. I total disagree with this, the trip around the world always starts with first footstep. Viriya is itti (power), never underestimate power of viriya. The Buddha never said that the path is a easy path. It's the path that is less taken, most people enjoy other paths. But the path is exist, it needs a traveler to complete the task though. > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > referring to them are obsolete. > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the > Eightfold Path. Even akusula can be paccaya or condition following kusula. Nobody born with purely kusula life or enlightenment. I think we need to know both kusula and akusula to develop right understanding. > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto > akusala and micchaditthi. > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > akusala and micchaditthi. This is impossible, I could not imagine to see a person with only akusula citta or vipaka. Hmmm, I don't think so. I might be wrong, both kusula and akusula are arised and ceased by causes and conditions. > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a > delusion. There is no path to the cessation of > suffering except for those on its very threshold. > Again, I personally believe there is the path. I am not sure that there is a traveler who dares to take it. Look around, you will not feel lonely. There are a lot of swimmers, at least on this list. Num 5004 From: Herman Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 3:29pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Dear Mike, (Sorry Howard, I am using your post to reply to Mike, can't find the original) The light is in your self. The truth is in your self. The Dhamma is in your self. It's nice to have cyber buddies but I never accept directions from someone who is pointing me down their own path. They don't understand yet ...... With lovingkindness (Don't you think the English has a ring to it:-) Herman --- Howard wrote: > Dear Mike - > > My heart really goes out to you. I have no doubt that that you are > quite mistaken and that you have NOT wasted thirty years. For some reason, > you have been driven to what I see as extreme conclusions. Please remember > that the Buddha's path is a *middle* path. Please don't take the view that > progress must either be total or nil. You CAN get there from here! With the > right, fortunate experiences, it is possible to gain GREAT confidence. With > appropriate samatha training, it IS possible to reach jhanic states. (I KNOW > this for a fact.) With appropriate vipassana training, it IS possible to > glimpse the unreality of self in the person and in "things" and to gain > enormous confidence in the Buddha's way. (I know THAT for a fact as well.) > Please don't despair. There is really so much of value here - so much that > really IS possible. Try sometime a Goenka retreat - I found that that gave me > enormous confidence in the Dhamma. I only went to one, but it was wonderful. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 4/27/01 1:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > "m. nease" writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > You're so much better informed than I am, and so much > > better-spoken. My heart really goes out to you with > > this post, and it inspires me to post several > > tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions I've > > painfully and gradually come to myself. I hope you > > don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more > > thoughtful post. > > > > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > > about the Dhamma is completely wrong. > > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > > enlightenment. > > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > > certain authors). > > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. > > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or > > incomprehensible. > > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > > referring to them are obsolete. > > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until > > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the > > Eightfold Path. > > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except > > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto > > akusala and micchaditthi. > > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > > akusala and micchaditthi. > > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the > > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala > > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. > > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a > > delusion. There is no path to the cessation of > > suffering except for those on its very threshold. > > > > Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few > > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time, > > off the top of my head. > > > > mike > > 5005 From: J.L. Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 6:27pm Subject: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate Mr Amara Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what on earth is going on with Metta J.L. PS I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these chappies so Bad --- "Amara" wrote: > > > Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma- > > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not > > classify > > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma > > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time > > now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest Thai > > Forest Buddhist Masters. > > Dear Marlon, > > I have never studied any other teachings but those of the Tipitaka, > and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not they are not mine if > they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in any way. > > > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe > > because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They spent a > > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in > > understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the Buddha > > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure > > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions of > > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences > which > > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before someone > > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth. > > The Buddha did not live in the forest all the time, he lived in > mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself photographs of in > your website, in the vicinity of the great cities where he taught > kings and princes as well as leprous beggars. He did it was true that > he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his main purpose was, after > his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very well teach where > there are no people. He spent most of the time, as one sees in the > Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting alms and teaching, > not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude as some people > might have us think. Those who do that and claim to have led the > Buddha's life and experienced the same thing should indeed study the > Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their mouth they would > know it instead of thinking others do without realizing the truth in > the Tipitaka. > > People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing > what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he > taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I > saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving > S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they > gain the same insight. > > On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta and cetasika, that > panna or right understanding of things as they really are is the only > thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root of all kilesa, and > that panna like all other things except nibbana has to be conditioned > to arise, and how to condition panna with satipatthana, one could live > anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to the heavenly planes > to teach. One could be a king and attain high levels of wisdom, or be > a slave and do the same. One does not have to become a forest monk > and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha discounting what he did > after he became enlightened. Indeed those who imitated the wrong > parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme before his attainment > would be doing something he forbade others to do as futile exercise. > > > Your quote:--- > > "". I know that I am the reason why I have > > not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be > > able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would > > then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is > > 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do > something > > without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather > > the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking > refuge > > in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a > > long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and > 'bon > > voyage'!-----Amara > > > > My Reply to you:--- > > Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches fundamental > > Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to seek > > Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to > you > > all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are different. > > Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment will > > allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult to > > accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, data > > too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant it > > in a totally different context. > > I do not expect anyone to accept anything, there are zillions of > beings who are not Buddhists. But this is what the Buddha taught in > the Tipitaka, if anyone cared to study it. The sukkhavipassaka attain > nibbana through panna alone and not through jhana. If you do not > believe the Tipitaka that is your problem, you and your forest > dwellers could perhaps start a new religion, perhaps the forest > dwelling sect or something. Actually a lot of the bhikkhus in the > Buddha's time were forest dwellers, but they had the accumulations > which, after the basics have been learnt, could develop satipatthana > along with other kusala. Nowadays people make a big thing about such > life which was common back then, besides the fact that there are fewer > forests now. And most could not tell when they are attached to the > subtle lobha for sitting and expecting unusual things to happen which > they immediately cling to as something good ordinary people don't get > to see. But is there any real knowledge of things as they really are > at that time? Of sight as sight, of seeing as seeing, of sound as > sound, not color, of hearing at that moment? Is there knowledge of > nama as nama or rupa as rupa? After that can they tell without > uncertainty what is the manodvara like? If not, others than > experiencing some strange and ultimately useless things, and even > harmful ones if one clings to it and develop even more lobha without > being conscious of it, what knowledge is gained in the least? What > kusala citta? > > Those who developed jhana in the old days before the Buddha taught > them how to do it with vipassana, at least knew what kusala citta were > and how to develop it. Nowadays just about anyone can imitate the > gestures and postures, but few could attain the same panna even if > only at the jhana level. I don't care what a person says, if he > doesn't agree with the Tipitaka, or who he is or was, after all, > Devadata who was perhaps foremost in wrong view, was also a bhikkhu in > the Buddhist order, as I said in a previous post. > > Amara > > > Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey home > to > > the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'" > > "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of > > Nirvana had this to say? > > ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is > difficult > > to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only > > suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana is > > beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus > > Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no boundary, > > no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- Ven > S > > Dhammika 5006 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- Erik wrote: > --- "Amara" wrote: > > I'm quite impressed with > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with > your > > methods of acquisition. > > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. > Comparing systems, for example? Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain a kind of musavada. 5007 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:04pm Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate --- J.L. wrote: > Mr Amara > Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong > group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I > hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I > dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what on > earth is going on > with Metta > J.L. > PS > I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to > Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these > chappies so Bad Johnluke, If you're here to discuss the dhamma, you're in the right place. I am not a Buddhisht monk, and I do not represent this group. The list owners and moderators are not responsible for my posts which are my views alone. The post you have below was in answer to someone else's post which you might have agreed with, which is your prerogative, as it is mine to disagree, and yours not to agree with me. There is no rule here that we should all agree. I have the highest respect for monks who teach the dhamma and practice it. But there are also monks who do neither, so I do discriminate. I believe the heart of the Buddha's teachings is panna or right understanding, and forest or city monks who teach or accumulate that have my highest respect. What are you learning about Buddhism, may I ask, as one student to another? Anumodana to all those who study, Amara > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > > Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma- > > > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not > > > > classify > > > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters > Dhamma > > > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long > time > > > now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest > Thai > > > Forest Buddhist Masters. > > > > Dear Marlon, > > > > I have never studied any other teachings but those of the Tipitaka, > > and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not they are not mine > if > > they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in any way. > > > > > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe > > > because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They > spent a > > > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in > > > understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the > Buddha > > > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure > > > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions > of > > > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences > > which > > > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before > someone > > > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth. > > > > The Buddha did not live in the forest all the time, he lived in > > mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself photographs of in > > your website, in the vicinity of the great cities where he taught > > kings and princes as well as leprous beggars. He did it was true > that > > he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his main purpose was, > after > > his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very well teach where > > there are no people. He spent most of the time, as one sees in the > > Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting alms and > teaching, > > not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude as some people > > might have us think. Those who do that and claim to have led the > > Buddha's life and experienced the same thing should indeed study > the > > Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their mouth they would > > know it instead of thinking others do without realizing the truth > in > > the Tipitaka. > > > > People who think they experience what the Buddha did without > knowing > > what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he > > taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I > > saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people > moving > > S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose > they > > gain the same insight. > > > > On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta and cetasika, that > > panna or right understanding of things as they really are is the > only > > thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root of all kilesa, > and > > that panna like all other things except nibbana has to be > conditioned > > to arise, and how to condition panna with satipatthana, one could > live > > anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to the heavenly > planes > > to teach. One could be a king and attain high levels of wisdom, or > be > > a slave and do the same. One does not have to become a forest monk > > and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha discounting what he > did > > after he became enlightened. Indeed those who imitated the wrong > > parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme before his attainment > > would be doing something he forbade others to do as futile exercise. > > > > > Your quote:--- > > > "". I know that I am the reason why I have > > > not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be > > > able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would > > > then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is > > > 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do > > something > > > without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, > rather > > > the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking > > refuge > > > in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone > taking a > > > long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and > > 'bon > > > voyage'!-----Amara > > > > > > My Reply to you:--- > > > Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches > fundamental > > > Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to > seek > > > Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to > > you > > > all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are > different. > > > Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment > will > > > allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult > to > > > accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, > data > > > too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant > it > > > in a totally different context. > > > > I do not expect anyone to accept anything, there are zillions of > > beings who are not Buddhists. But this is what the Buddha taught > in > > the Tipitaka, if anyone cared to study it. The sukkhavipassaka > attain > > nibbana through panna alone and not through jhana. If you do not > > believe the Tipitaka that is your problem, you and your forest > > dwellers could perhaps start a new religion, perhaps the forest > > dwelling sect or something. Actually a lot of the bhikkhus in the > > Buddha's time were forest dwellers, but they had the accumulations > > which, after the basics have been learnt, could develop > satipatthana > > along with other kusala. Nowadays people make a big thing about > such > > life which was common back then, besides the fact that there are > fewer > > forests now. And most could not tell when they are attached to the > > subtle lobha for sitting and expecting unusual things to happen > which > > they immediately cling to as something good ordinary people don't > get > > to see. But is there any real knowledge of things as they really > are > > at that time? Of sight as sight, of seeing as seeing, of sound as > > sound, not color, of hearing at that moment? Is there knowledge of > > nama as nama or rupa as rupa? After that can they tell without > > uncertainty what is the manodvara like? If not, others than > > experiencing some strange and ultimately useless things, and even > > harmful ones if one clings to it and develop even more lobha > without > > being conscious of it, what knowledge is gained in the least? What > > kusala citta? > > > > Those who developed jhana in the old days before the Buddha taught > > them how to do it with vipassana, at least knew what kusala citta > were > > and how to develop it. Nowadays just about anyone can imitate the > > gestures and postures, but few could attain the same panna even if > > only at the jhana level. I don't care what a person says, if he > > doesn't agree with the Tipitaka, or who he is or was, after all, > > Devadata who was perhaps foremost in wrong view, was also a bhikkhu > in > > the Buddhist order, as I said in a previous post. > > > > Amara > > > > > Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey > home > > to > > > the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'" > > > "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of > > > Nirvana had this to say? > > > ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is > > difficult > > > to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only > > > suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana > is > > > beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus > > > Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no > boundary, > > > no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- > Ven > > S > > > Dhammika 5008 From: Erik Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:08pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- "Amara" wrote: > --- Erik wrote: > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > I'm quite impressed with > > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with > > your > > > methods of acquisition. > > > > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. > > Comparing systems, for example? > > > Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain a > kind of musavada. Can kindly point me to a single instance where you feel I have made a false accusation? I find this suggestion I have spoken falsely quite surprising. That's a serious accusation in itself, Amara, especially when you accuse another Dharma practitioner. This is not something you want to be wrong about. I find what you've said here especially suprising given I haven't observed any deeds motivated through that particular akusala-kamma-patha in some years now. 5009 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:52pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- Erik wrote: > --- "Amara" wrote: > > --- Erik wrote: > > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > I'm quite impressed with > > > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree > with > > > your > > > > methods of acquisition. > > > > > > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. > > > Comparing systems, for example? > > > > > > Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain > a > > kind of musavada. > > Can kindly point me to a single instance where you feel I have made a > false accusation? I find this suggestion I have spoken falsely quite > surprising. That's a serious accusation in itself, Amara, especially > when you accuse another Dharma practitioner. This is not something > you want to be wrong about. I find what you've said here especially > suprising given I haven't observed any deeds motivated through that > particular akusala-kamma-patha in some years now. Anumodana, then, if it were true, which only you would know. I would suggest you reread message 4102. Of course that's past and over with, but as it is I am not obliged to answer any of your messages, and will not any further if I think it is full of false accusations, I am here to study the dhamma and not put up with petty bickering, so you can write anything you wish from now on and if I don't think it condones to kusala and panna I will not reply, which is my privilege. I had hoped your studies could lead you to kusala and panna and it seems I could do nothing to help, only condition more kusala, so our correspondence should end here. Whether you reply to this or not will have the same effect, I myself will try to accumulate more right understanding and kusala and I am sure you will do the same. 5010 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:58pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice > It's nice to have cyber buddies but I never accept directions from > someone who is pointing me down their own path. They don't understand > yet ...... > > > With lovingkindness > (Don't you think the English has a ring to it:-) > > > Herman Dear Herman, I agree with you entirely, no one should ever be a copycat. The only one whose path I would even examine the directions to is the Buddha. And he always taught us never to believe even his own teachings without careful consideration. Amara > --- Howard wrote: > > Dear Mike - > > > > My heart really goes out to you. I have no doubt that that > you are > > quite mistaken and that you have NOT wasted thirty years. For some > reason, > > you have been driven to what I see as extreme conclusions. Please > remember > > that the Buddha's path is a *middle* path. Please don't take the > view that > > progress must either be total or nil. You CAN get there from here! > With the > > right, fortunate experiences, it is possible to gain GREAT > confidence. With > > appropriate samatha training, it IS possible to reach jhanic > states. (I KNOW > > this for a fact.) With appropriate vipassana training, it IS > possible to > > glimpse the unreality of self in the person and in "things" and to > gain > > enormous confidence in the Buddha's way. (I know THAT for a fact as > well.) > > Please don't despair. There is really so much of value here - so > much that > > really IS possible. Try sometime a Goenka retreat - I found that > that gave me > > enormous confidence in the Dhamma. I only went to one, but it was > wonderful. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > In a message dated 4/27/01 1:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > "m. nease" writes: > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > > > You're so much better informed than I am, and so much > > > better-spoken. My heart really goes out to you with > > > this post, and it inspires me to post several > > > tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions I've > > > painfully and gradually come to myself. I hope you > > > don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more > > > thoughtful post. > > > > > > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > > > about the Dhamma is completely wrong. > > > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > > > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > > > enlightenment. > > > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > > > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > > > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > > > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > > > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > > > certain authors). > > > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > > > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > > > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > > > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. > > > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or > > > incomprehensible. > > > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > > > referring to them are obsolete. > > > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until > > > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > > > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > > > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > > > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the > > > Eightfold Path. > > > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except > > > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > > > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto > > > akusala and micchaditthi. > > > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > > > akusala and micchaditthi. > > > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > > > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the > > > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala > > > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > > > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. > > > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a > > > delusion. There is no path to the cessation of > > > suffering except for those on its very threshold. > > > > > > Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few > > > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time, > > > off the top of my head. > > > > > > mike > > > 5011 From: craig garner Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate To the Sangha, Love wisdom ,love compasion and may compasion always be with wisdom as siamese twins are. best wishes Craig 5012 From: <> Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 4:48am Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) There is an apparent contradiction in Narada's commentary on A.S. He writes, "Where there are Thina and Middha there is no viriya." In part, this is what I was basing my comment on. But A.S. lists viriya as a "fixed adjunct" that invariably arises in its assigned types of consciousness (viz., the akusala and kusala cittas). Apparently, this means that viriya arises in every kusala and akusala citta, contrary to what I wrote in my previous few messages. In that case, THANKS Sarah and Robert for straightening me out! This brings up an interesting question, though, about why Narada would write his comment. He was a wise and learned bhikkhu, and I don't think he would make such a silly error unless there's more to it than meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of A.S.) writes: "Viriya is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its proximate cause is a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to vigorous action." Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency just doesn't seem to apply to any kusala or akusala citta, in particular those with thina and middha. Is this because viriya means different things in different contexts? What is the more canonical take on "fixed adjunct"? Is this discussed in Dhammasangani? Or even Atthasalini? > > In particular, [viriya] doesn't arise with thina and middha. This, > > though, > > is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't > > have a > > citation for you, but it certainly makes sense. > > I think it has yet to be decided whether it arises with all > akusala including thina and middha. 5013 From: Herman Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:51am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die Erik, What is the word for self-righteousness in Pali? I don't really want to know, it is a rhetorical question, designed, if possible, to trigger some reflection. Who , what are you in defense off? And how is it that this who/what you are in defense off requires this defense? Is friend Amara any less than friend Erik? With lovingkindness (the state of mind, not the word) Herman --- Erik wrote: > --- "Amara" wrote: > > --- Erik wrote: > > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > I'm quite impressed with > > > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree > with > > > your > > > > methods of acquisition. > > > > > > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. > > > Comparing systems, for example? > > > > > > Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain > a > > kind of musavada. > > Can kindly point me to a single instance where you feel I have made a > false accusation? I find this suggestion I have spoken falsely quite > surprising. That's a serious accusation in itself, Amara, especially > when you accuse another Dharma practitioner. This is not something > you want to be wrong about. I find what you've said here especially > suprising given I haven't observed any deeds motivated through that > particular akusala-kamma-patha in some years now. 5014 From: Herman Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:00am Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate John Luke, You show some insight. Yes, you may indeed have joined the wrong group :-). The dislike wasn't in Amara's post. It was all in yourself. The solution will not come from Amara. It will come from yourself, or not at all. By the way, it is very unladylike to introduce yourself with a right hook and a swift kick to the gonads. What did you say your name was, mate? Herman --- J.L. wrote: > Mr Amara > Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong > group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I > hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I > dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what on > earth is going on > with Metta > J.L. > PS > I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to > Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these > chappies so Bad > 5015 From: robert Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 10:02am Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Dan, Thanks for looking this up.Comments below. --- Dan wrote: > There is an apparent contradiction in Narada's commentary on A.S. He > writes, "Where there are Thina and Middha there is no viriya." In > part, this is what I was basing my comment on. But A.S. lists viriya > as a "fixed adjunct" that invariably arises in its assigned types of > consciousness (viz., the akusala and kusala cittas). Apparently, this > means that viriya arises in every kusala and akusala citta, contrary > to what I wrote in my previous few messages. In that case, THANKS > Sarah and Robert for straightening me out! > > This brings up an interesting question, though, about why Narada would > write his comment. He was a wise and learned bhikkhu, and I don't > think he would make such a silly error unless there's more to it than > meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of A.S.) writes: "Viriya > is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its proximate cause is > a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to vigorous action." > Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency just doesn't seem to > apply to any kusala or akusala citta, in particular those with thina > and middha. Is this because viriya means different things in different > contexts? What is the more canonical take on "fixed adjunct"? Is this > discussed in Dhammasangani? Or even Atthasalini? I haven't looked up what it said in the Abhidhammatthasangaha so will just make some tentative observations based on the discussion so far. Fixed adjunct will mean just that: that it arises will all those type of cittas. As I said earlier, in the atthasalini when they refer to viriya most often they are referring to viriya which accompanies kusala citta so we get such phrases as "from its overcoming idleness it is a controlling factor in the sense of predominace"p158. This phrase supports the idea that it could not arise with sloth; BUT note that it is in the chapter "MORAL(kusala) consciousness in the worlds of sense" thus kusala viriya is assumed here. Perhaps Narada based his thoughts on these type of references. I have found, and you may too, that even respected scholars and practioners can make errors. One example, I found ledi sayadaw excellent on many aspects of Dhamma but later found that occasionally he would depart from the very ancient commentaries. I think these are the times when even laypeople have to investigate and consider and discuss difficult Dhamma themselves. It is not that we simply believe it if it is said by an important teacher. Acharn Sujin is famous now in Thailand but I notice when they have the meetings in the big hall that subtle questions are openly discussed by a panel, and the audience too has input. When it comes to very subtle points on practice they especially look to Sujin but on an interpretation of a pali term other members are often consulted. Even this is no guarantee. Nor is it that even if we find a reference in the ancient commentary that that is the end of the matter. It has to be considered in relation to the Tipitaka and also to this moment. It probably seems strange to think of feeling drowsy with energy (viriya) present. Then again consider when sleeping and some very active dream is occurring - we can see that viriya is present then. When we read the lists in the Dhammasaangani or abhidhammatthasangaha we might get the impression that say viriya is some fixed 'ingredient' that is just added in with other cetasikas. However, from the Patthana - the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that "moments" are highly dynamic with influences from past and present factors. And no moment is identical with another. It is true that such dhammas as viriya or vedana are classified under the same heading but the actual quality is influenced by so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of feeling (or viriya)is exactly the same. When feeling drowsy viriya is likely not of the same degree as when one is very intent and interested in something. When viriya is an indriya, controlling faculty, it becomes powerful and predominant. These are just some considerations, not the end of the matter. I am sure in Thailand this would have been thoroughly explained - it is all much easier there I find. One can meet so many knowledgeable and helpful friends. robert 5016 From: Bill Sims Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 1:13pm Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate Ladies and Gentleman Something has gone dreadfully wrong here. I only sense anger and unskilled thoughts from everyone. The display of anger is contrary to Buddhist practice of Dhamma. Buddhism does not teach us to display anger when faced with adversity of views. How can we call ourselves true Buddhists when we display such outwardly unskilled behavior. We must all analyze our ongoing behavior for our own good and the furtherance of Buddhism. Bill Sims --- Herman wrote: > John Luke, > > You show some insight. Yes, you may indeed have joined the wrong > group :-). > > The dislike wasn't in Amara's post. It was all in yourself. The > solution will not come from Amara. It will come from yourself, or not > at all. > > By the way, it is very unladylike to introduce yourself with a right > hook and a swift kick to the gonads. > > What did you say your name was, mate? > > Herman > > --- J.L. wrote: > > Mr Amara > > Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong > > group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I > > hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I > > dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what > on > > earth is going on > > with Metta > > J.L. > > PS > > I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to > > Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these > > chappies so Bad > > 5017 From: Bill Sims Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 4:45pm Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate HERMAN You sound like a puny little runt that runs around barking into neighbors gardens. Come teatime you will be curled up into a little ball and asleep at someones feet. Leave adult conversation to adults, I didn't see your name mentioned you in any way, you runt. BS --- Herman wrote: > John Luke, > > You show some insight. Yes, you may indeed have joined the wrong > group :-). > > The dislike wasn't in Amara's post. It was all in yourself. The > solution will not come from Amara. It will come from yourself, or not > at all. > > By the way, it is very unladylike to introduce yourself with a right > hook and a swift kick to the gonads. > > What did you say your name was, mate? > > Herman > 5019 From: Bill Sims Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 5:22pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die-amara Hey Amara do you think you are a Arahant yet, you are trying to sound like one, or do you want to make people think that maybe you are one. I think you are a pimp. BS --- "Amara" wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > Panna is not wisdom to know things as they really are for nothing. > The arahanta would know they have reached that stage, although that > stage without kilesa is also without mana that makes them distinguish > their nama and rupa from the rest of nama and rupa. After each level > of attainment there is a nana that goes revues all the kilesa > eradicated and all that is left, so none of the ariya puggala could > ever mistake the level they are at and what there is left to > eradicate. > > Amara > > > Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters > they > > are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer know > > an Arahant? > > > > I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that > the > > concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable) > > (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable). > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > > > 5020 From: Herman Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 7:37pm Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate-Hermsn Dear Bill, I just want to acknowledge that I have read your post. I am choosing not to reply to it's content. Hope this finds you well. Kind Regards Herman --- Bill Sims wrote: > HERMAN > You sound like a puny little runt that runs around barking into > neighbors gardens. Come teatime you will be curled up into a little > ball and asleep at someones feet. Leave adult conversation to adults, > I didn't see your name mentioned you in any way, you runt. > > BS > 5021 From: Moderators Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:15pm Subject: Moderator Warning Please note that any members who write abusive posts will have their messages moderated without notice. We apologise to all other members for any offence that may have been caused recently. DSG Moderators 5022 From: Joe Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:46pm Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom Jon Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Joe --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Joe > > > Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, > > you are dealing > > with theoretical constructs, at least as I > > understand the meaning > > of 'theory'. > > We may need to define terms here. Any teaching > purporting to be a declaration of absolute truths > which have been realised, and are realisable, by > direct experience would not fall within my > understanding of the term 'theoretical construct'. > (The inclusion of the factor of direct experience is > crucial in this regard.) > > Any of the Four Noble Truths, for > > example, like Newton's > > theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis > > that can be tested. > > If you accept any statement in the pitakas without > > testing it, it is > > unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then > > it's a confirmed > > theory (until another theory proves otherwise). > > I agree that the teachings can only be confirmed to > the extent that one's developed panna allows, and that > beyond that they can only be a working hypothesis > (thanks, Mike). HOwever, to the extent that they are > confirmed, they are realised in a sense that, say, > Newton's laws could never be (they being concepts). > > > I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" > > side clear. I > > was referring in particular to the post that said > > something like 'to > > hell with the written word,' which to me meant that > > view valued > > personal experience over scripture. Not that I > > sympathise with that > > point of view. > > Understood. Actually, Erik later clarified that > remark, to make it clear that it was not intended the > way we all took it. > > > Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can > > point to one > > interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the > > correct one." But > > there are DSG posters on this list who have implied > > that one > > particular interpretation they are acquainted with > > (or have > > discovered) is the correct one. > > You are right to point out the dangers of dogmatic > assertion. > > > > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, > > as > > > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the > > > question slightly differently -- whether the > > pitakas > > > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. > > > > Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip > > out of the question > > so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the > > Buddha" is > > infallible? > > It is the *truths* taught by the Buddha that are said > to be infallible, and verifiable by any person for > themselves. I think there is danger in attaching the > label 'infallible' to a person's *words*, since words > are simply the medium by which the (purported) truths > are conveyed. > > How's that for slipping out of a question? > > > >Can there be > > > > an independent > > > > judge of the fruits of your practice? > > > > > > I don't believe so. > > > > Not even your reading of the Tipitaka? > > No. There is nothing independent about a person's > interpretation of someone else's words, especially > when those words are the basis for the person's > practice in the first place. > > > > My own approach is to test any expression of view > > > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential > > > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong > > > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most > > > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't > > > feel the need to make any apology for this > > approach > > > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the > > fact > > > is, the teaching on any particular point can be > > > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and > > > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary. > > > > And how do you know you're understanding the texts > correctly? > > I think it is difficult to ever assert the one has > understood a text correctly. That's why the study of > the texts, and the application of the understanding > arising from that study, is a never-ending task. > > > > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an > > actual > > > example from the archives of anyone on this list > > > making a similar claim! > > > > Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? > > And I think I > > could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like > > to take it that > > far. > > Joe, thanks for ignoring my provocation. I am > probably one of the worst offenders in this regard! > > > > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners > > might > > > > place unwritten > > > > dharma transmission -- person to person > > > > transmission, as in Tibetan > > > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins > > > > (those who follow > > > > this or that living teacher) -- above written > > > > transmission, > > > > especially when the latter can be complicated by > > > > differing > > > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' > > > > sutras, Sanskrit vs > > > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage > > of > > > > undefined Pali > > > > terms, etc. > > > > > > That would imply, I suppose, that those people > > must > > > regard unwritten transmission as being more > > reliable > > > than written transmission? > > > > Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example. > > I suppose the question of whether a written or an oral > tradition is more reliable is an open question, and so > not worth pursuing here. > > > > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- > > on > > > > written or > > > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one > > > > could argue that one > > > > is not receiving dharma directly from the > > Buddha, > > > > but from > > > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > > > > tactical conundrum > > > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > > > > argue that the > > > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > > > > have the only > > > > correct interpretation of it. > > > > > > The approach taken by most people in my experience > > is > > > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority > > of > > > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's > > > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry > > and > > > discussion. I agree that there are times when > > > different views are robustly expressed, but this > > does > > > === message truncated === > > Saved by the truncation! If this has allowed me to > duck anything that I shouln't, please feel free to > draw my attention to it. > > Jon > > Ps Sorry to have missed you in Bangkok. Looking > forward to that pleasure on some future occasion. > > 5023 From: Howard Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 4:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die-amara Hi, Bill - I just read the following three posts from you: #1 Ladies and Gentleman Something has gone dreadfully wrong here. I only sense anger and unskilled thoughts from everyone. The display of anger is contrary to Buddhist practice of Dhamma. Buddhism does not teach us to display anger when faced with adversity of views. How can we call ourselves true Buddhists when we display such outwardly unskilled behavior. We must all analyze our ongoing behavior for our own good and the furtherance of Buddhism. Bill Sims #2 HERMAN You sound like a puny little runt that runs around barking into neighbors gardens. Come teatime you will be curled up into a little ball and asleep at someones feet. Leave adult conversation to adults, I didn't see your name mentioned you in any way, you #3 Hey Amara do you think you are a Arahant yet, you are trying to sound like one, or do you want to make people think that maybe you are one. I think you are a pimp. BS ============================== Are numbers 2 and 3 really from you? If yes, would you please explain what you are trying to do here? Is this an attempt at humor or irony? This is not the list for this sort of posting. You might try the newsgroups instead. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5024 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from a new member Hi Wafik, I wrote a message to you a couple of days ago to welcome you to the list, but I think it got lost somewhere in cyberspace (happens to me too,Amara!!) I'm so glad you're enjoying the messages on theravada. Pls let us know if you have any questions or comments. I've sorry, but I can't help you with your question below, but I'd be interested to hear anything you care to share about your background and interest in Buddhism. May I ask where you are from, too?? Best rgds, Sarah --- Wafik wrote: > Hello everybody in this Group, > > I really appreciate all the messages posted and the > wide knowledge of > Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages. > > For about a year now I've been reading a lot about > Theravada Buddhism > and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a > meditation retreat in > Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably > you can give me > some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a > Myanmar embassy via e- > mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so > far. > > with metta > > Wafik > 5025 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Mike I was sorry to read about your discouragement. I am sure it is unfounded. I don't propose to go through your points, because I think in your frustration you have deliberately overstated your conclusions! I would, however, like to encourage you to keep considering the points made in posts and to test anything said here against the texts of the Tipitaka, a source which you are more familiar with than just about anyone else on the list. Mike, it is not unnatural to have doubt about the teachings, and also self-doubt and other unpleasant mental states. As long as we are not enlightened we will continue to do so. I am sure your sentiments are shared by others on the list too from time to time. Also, as long as we continue to study the teachings there will be times when we come to realise that our understanding is not correct in some respect or other - this after all is how progress is made along the path. To look on the positive side, any realisation of our own inadequacies can, as Num has pointed out, be a sign of maturity of understanding. I do hope nothing I have said has contributed unnecessarily to your confusion. Please feel free to say if that is so. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Howard, > > You're so much better informed than I am, and so > much > better-spoken. My heart really goes out to you with > this post, and it inspires me to post several > tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions > I've > painfully and gradually come to myself. I hope you > don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more > thoughtful post. > > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > about the Dhamma is completely wrong. > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > enlightenment. > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > certain authors). > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala > or > incomprehensible. > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > referring to them are obsolete. > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated > until > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to > the > Eightfold Path. > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection > except > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso > facto > akusala and micchaditthi. > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > akusala and micchaditthi. > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by > the > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily > akusala > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a > delusion. There is no path to the cessation of > suffering except for those on its very threshold. > > Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time, > off the top of my head. > > mike 5026 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mr Amara -explain yourself mate Dear John, I'm sure that if you are sincerely wishing to study more about Buddhism then this is certainly the right place to be and we will all do our best to help you. As with any teaching, religion, philosophy or way of life, there are bound to be different understandings, views and interpretations. I believe it's very useful to discuss these and to help each other learn more. Indeed this is the very purpose of this group here. I re-read the message you referred to by Amara, a Thai lady and good friend of mine. As anyone who follows this list knows, we usually agree, but sometimes disagree on points of dhamma and are not afraid to point this out! In this case, although some of her comments to Marlon may have been considered by some as being too direct, I fail to see how they could be perceived in quite the way you describe, but that doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong!! Anyway, I hope you enjoy other messages on the list and feel free to ask any questions. Please would you tell us a little about your background and interest in Buddhism and where you live too. Best rgds, Sarah --- J.L. wrote: > Mr Amara > Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have > joined the wrong > group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous > speach before, I > hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning > Buddhism and I > dont like what I read in your post. could you please > explain what on > earth is going on > with Metta > J.L. > PS > I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks > from Insite to > Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you > treating these > chappies so Bad > > --- "Amara" > wrote: > > > > > Contarary to what you feel about all my past > statements on Dhamma- > > > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up > views. I do not > > > > classify > > > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to > the masters > Dhamma > > > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest > potential. For a long > time > > > now I have been using the views from some of > your/our Greatest > Thai > > > Forest Buddhist Masters. > > > > Dear Marlon, > > > > I have never studied any other teachings but those > of the Tipitaka, > > and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not > they are not mine > if > > they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in > any way. > > > > > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe > > > because most of you find them not worthy to be > studied. They > spent a > > > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they > succeeded in > > > understanding it perfectly, because they had to > live like the > Buddha > > > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not > like some pleasure > > > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out > their own renditions > of > > > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their > own experiences > > which > > > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record > straight before > someone > > > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth. > > > > The Buddha did not live in the forest all the > time, he lived in > > mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself > photographs of in > > your website, in the vicinity of the great cities > where he taught > > kings and princes as well as leprous beggars. He > did it was true > that > > he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his > main purpose was, > after > > his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very > well teach where > > there are no people. He spent most of the time, > as one sees in the > > Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting > alms and > teaching, > > not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude > as some people > > might have us think. Those who do that and claim > to have led the > > Buddha's life and experienced the same thing > should indeed study > the > > Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their > mouth they would > > know it instead of thinking others do without > realizing the truth > in > > the Tipitaka. > > > > People who think they experience what the Buddha > did without > knowing > > what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning > the dhamma as he > > taught even through the oral tradition would be > like some monkeys I > > saw near some meditation centers where they see > all the people > moving > > S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the > same. I suppose > they > > gain the same insight. > > > > On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta > and cetasika, that > > panna or right understanding of things as they > really are is the > only > > thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root > of all kilesa, > and > > that panna like all other things except nibbana > has to be > conditioned > > to arise, and how to condition panna with > satipatthana, one could > live > > anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to > the heavenly > planes > > to teach. One could be a king and attain high > levels of wisdom, or > be > > a slave and do the same. One does not have to > become a forest monk > > and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha > discounting what he > did > > after he became enlightened. Indeed those who > imitated the wrong > > parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme > before his attainment > > would be doing something he forbade others to do > as futile exercise. 5027 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:30pm Subject: p.s. Dear Dan, Rob, Howard, Num, Kom,Erik and everyone else, have you all in mind and I note there are lots of good meaty posts to catch up on (hopefully tomorrow)....we've had some really super discussions in Bkk (live ones) w/ Khun Sujin and friends and hope to get back with some appetisers tomorrow..... Hope the list is back to 'normal' by then too!! Sarah 5028 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 2:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Erik Thanks for your detailed explanation. It helps me to understand where some of our members are coming from. My immediate reaction is, to return to an earlier thread raised by you, that this is an area of definite departure between the Mahayana and the Therevada traditions. The concept of 'black deeds [being] transformed by panna into the purest and most indestructible substance known to man' would seem to contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. Likewise, the concept of a source or kind of kusala outside those enumerated in the suttas would also be contradictory. To particlarise, if tantric bliss is kusala, what kind of kusala citta is it and what is its object? =============== Erik: Anyway, I hope you find this of some use. It will hopefully better help you and I continue our conversations (and debates!) as well. ================= Yes, I'm sure it will. Funny thing about our debates though, Erik. They usually die at an early stage, with me waiting for an answer from you. The latest example of this was my recent request for your explanation of the term 'vipassana' as used in the context of a statement you made. I seem to recall other examples (eg. the meaning of the Eightfold Path as found in the Mahayana texts). Jon --- Erik wrote: > Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Erik > > > > > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited > that > > > temptation for > > > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having > been > > > well-established in > > > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be > > > "vajrayanic." It is > > > either what you are (physiologically) or it is > not. > > > You can't choose > > > it; it chooses you. > > > > I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before. > > Would you mind giving a short explanation? > Thanks. > > Vajrayana literally means 'diamond vehicle,' the > appellation applied > to the form of Buddhism that arose in India and was > well-represented > (fairly dominant even I beleive) from the 8th > century on in various > monasteries like Nalanada (the Mahasiddha Naropa is > the root lineage- > holder of the Tibetan Kagyu and Geluk and Sakya > schools, and Naropa > was abbot of Nalanda). These teachings in particular > include that > various tantras. It seems all these practices arose > in a real > hothouse environment of the time in India. I am not > even close to > being a historian though, so please take this with a > grain of salt, > as it's to the best of my recollection. > > The etymology: Vajra is Sanskrit for 'diamond' as I > assume many here > are aware. Vajra also has many many deeper meanings > in Tibetan, where > it is known as Do-rJe (dorje), which literally means > 'Lord of > Stones'. > > One thing this symbolizes is the "adamantine wisdom" > of ongoing > realization. The Vajra is also symbolizes the > thunderbolt, which > represents the flash of insight that arises with > realization of > anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The dorje is also the > implement of Indra > (as well as the Tibetan version of Indra, > Vajrapani). Another meaning > I devised for this from my own painful experience is > fact that > there's only one known way to make a diamond, and > that's enormous > heat and pressure applied for a VERY long time. This > is very true in > tantra. When Kundalini (prana/chi) is activated > either through > natural ripening or forced with tantric energy > yogas, it's like being > tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where > akusala kamma is > consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna > into the purest > and most indestructible substance known to man. > > Since you asked, perhaps it would be helpful to > explain a bit about > tantric theory, since it a source of great confusion > for many people. > I have debated a LOT internally about the > justification and need for > tantra given the Buddha did not explicitly teach it > in the suttas. > And, the fact is, there is not a hair of difference > between the > understanding of the Four Noble Truths and anicca, > dukkha, and anatta > in the Tibetan Buddhadharma between what is taught > in the Theravada. > The agreement on this between systems--and I can say > this having > received correct teachings from teachers in both > lineages--is 100%, > even though presentations of the same thing differ > markedly, the > Tibetan relying largely on Nagarjuna's "Root > Treatise on the Middle > Way" (Mulamadhyamakakarika) for its presentation of > anatta, in this > case described as emptiness. > > I came to the conclusion that tantra is essential > for some people, > simply because of physiological makeup. If the > Kundalini starts > functioning you HAVE to deal with it. There is > simply no choice, > beacuse it can precipitate all sorts of really nasty > side-effects if > one is not prepared for it. So it's not even a > matter of preference > for many people, but a real necessity. Failing to > properly harness > and control activated Kundalini can lead to serious > psychological and > even physical problems, the worst recorded examples > being insanity > and death. (One reason tantra is called "walking the > razor's edge"). > > Tantric theory derives from the function of the > "prana" or life > energy that circulates in the body, the same thing > as taught in both > Traditional Chinese Medicine and Indian Ayurvedic > medicine, and > central to this physiological understanding are the > "chakras." Indian > tantrikas, both Buddhist and Hindu, discovered that > through certain > types of hatha yoga emphasizing breath control and > visualzation, one > can engender states of "inconceivable" bliss. Bliss > that has one very > interesting property: it somehow does NOT act as a > condition for > lobha. In other words, there is no clinging to this > type of bliss > generated in the practice of tantra. Another > interesting property of > this bliss is that it thoroughly pacifies the > nivaranas and acts as a > foundation for directly realizing emptiness (anatta) > when it arises > in meditation. > > The aim of tantric Buddhism is to harness this > capacity for bliss > built into this fathom-long body to open the door to > liberation. This > bliss is considered akin to nulclear fusion energy > as well, because > after a certain point it becomes self-sustaining in > terms of > engendering unstoppable bliss that supports acts of > virtue and > enables one to accumulate vast reserves of kusala > kamma, which is > taught to be necessary for attaining Buddhahood in > this lifetime. > When the Kundalini is fully activated this way, > there is the free > flow of prana throughout the body, but most > important through > the "heart chakra." Kundalini "bliss" effects are > all lokiya, and as > such are not confused with lokuttara realizations. > > This condition of fully awakened Kundalini is known > as a "tantric > paradise" or "pure land" and this is attained IN > THIS BODY. > This "tantric paradise" then serves as the > foundation for attaining > Buddhahood in the same lifetime. This tantric > paradise means that one > is inhabiting a state of perpetual > bliss-consciousness in this body. > This is supposed to be a very nice place to work out > one's final > liberation, because dukkha is strongly pacified > (though not > terminated, which is as always only via lokuttara > nana) by this > attainment. > > And just a note: Buddhahood is NOT "coming back > again and again" or > in direct contradiction to anything taught in the > Tripitaka about > final realization. It is still the blowing out of > the defilements, > though through a somewhat different strategy. The > final result is > still lokuttara, in other words--no god-realms, > atman, or any of that > some folks believe. I have been saddened by some of > the distortions > I've seen from people who should be much more > thorough in > investigating things they wish to criticize. I see > basic === message truncated === 5029 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 2:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Dan & Rob, Thanks for all your comments and considerations.... Yes, after I wrote my original post, I checked it out pretty carefully before posting, but after the comments about the 'dry' list, I was trying to keep it from being too academic! I don't have any texts w/me of course, but I think (as I mentioned to Num when we were talking about sanna)the problem is that we have a conventional idea about energy or laziness, to give 2 examples, and furthermore we're very used to taking them for self as well. Viriya energizes or 'cheers on' (o.k. I'll drop cheerleader) the citta to cognize or be conscious of its object and the other cetasikas to perform their functions regardless of whether they are kusala or akusala, and regardless, in conventional language, as to whether they seem to be energetic or lazy ones...As we have discussed, the nture of the viriya is different at each moment, depending on the other 'ingredients' it is combined with, but I don't see that we can say it is stronger or weaker depending on whether it is accompanied by sati or acompanied by thina and middha (sloth & torpor) for example. --- Dan wrote: > There is an apparent contradiction in Narada's > commentary on A.S. He > writes, "Where there are Thina and Middha there is > no viriya." In > part, this is what I was basing my comment on. But > A.S. lists viriya > as a "fixed adjunct" that invariably arises in its > assigned types of > consciousness (viz., the akusala and kusala cittas). yes > Apparently, this > means that viriya arises in every kusala and akusala > citta, contrary > to what I wrote in my previous few messages. In that > case, THANKS > Sarah and Robert for straightening me out! We're all here to keep straightening each other out...nothing easy about it!! Your careful consideration helps a lot! > > This brings up an interesting question, though, > about why Narada would > write his comment. He was a wise and learned > bhikkhu, and I don't > think he would make such a silly error unless > there's more to it than > meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of > A.S.) writes: "Viriya > is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its > proximate cause is > a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to > vigorous action." > Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency > just doesn't seem to > apply to any kusala or akusala citta, in particular > those with thina > and middha. For me, this is a little misleading, or perhaps that depends on how one u'stands action. Flat out, unable to move with dosa, say, and yet there is a sense of urgency which stirs, not one, but the citta to be fixed on the object at that moment too. Is this because viriya means different > things in different > contexts? Although the exact characteristic of all cetasikas (and any other realitye) is different at each moment,generally speaking, the function, nature, proximate cause etc are the same. Dan, I always enjoy reading your posts, and look f/w to hearing more. Btw, they tell me it's hot, very hot in Bangkok, but I haven't noticed it yet....I swim early in the morning, dive into air-conditoned rooms like this in the middle of the day and avoid any unnecessary 'running around'....Even today (Rob may be shocked to hear) we've given up a trip with Khun Sujin to relax quietly under the palm trees and catch up with you guys! I like to have time to consider what I've heard and we have one more 'party' tomorrow with her. Speak soon, Sarah 5030 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi Howard, This was interesting too... --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all (especially Amara) - > > I've been looking over the "Summary" again, > particularly the articles > on Samatha and Vipassana. .............................................. > I suspect that this post may be disappointing > to a number of you, and, > for that, I am most regretful. Please do understand > that I have come to learn > more about Abhidhamma and to have greater repect for > it than ever, since > being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue > a serious study of it, > and I would very much like to continue to > participate in discussions of it > and other matters on the list. I hope you don't mind that I've 'truncated' all the meat out of your neat message. Just a couple (actually, no idea how many as yet) of brief comments: 1. I doubt anyone would be disappointed to hear that you find this book is not such easy reading!! 2. It's certainly not compulsory reading for these discussions! 3. There are no rules about what Buddhist books or texts we all read, how we read them or in what order. 4. Unlike Num & Rob and the other bright larks that have the capacity and accumulations to read abhidhamma and other texts from cover to cover, I'm more like a slug or snail that takes its time.....I dip in here and there (actually, maybe I'm more a woodpecker, Num), go forwards, backwards and sideways...What I have always been able to do, however, is to consider pretty carefully what I read or hear. 5. At one of the discussions with Khun Sujin and also under the palm trees by the pool, I've been dipping into Nina's translation of the same book (can be downloaded from Zolag or abhidhamm.org websites). This is not such a literal translation and she also adds a lot of very helpful notes. You may find it easier reading. One problem, though, is that the original Thai book was written from lectures and so it is very difficult to translate and quite an undetrtaking by both Amara and Nina. 6. Even when we were looking at it together with Khun Sujin (thanks Betty), we were skipping over the intro, jumping to Ch3 and then reading a little and discussing what we'd read....abhidhamma is here and now, not just in the text. K.S. kept reminding us that we should remember the purpose when we study or read or discuss the details: it should be to understand more about the realities appearing in our lives right now!! So, Howard, enjoy reading whatever you find useful and interesting and share anything you like! Maybe time for another dip in the pool...After all it is a holiday (thanks to today being Buddha's birthday in Hong Kong although it's not 'til next week in Bkk). Sarah 5032 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:21pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die Dear all, I'm sorry I forgot to give the source of the information in the reply below, which is in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' the chapter on vipassana in the advanced section of from which I quote: Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana After the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta would arise in continuation after which the mano-dvara-vithi-citta would arise and examine the reality that has just been fully realized process by process, one examining the instant of magga-citta, another the phala-citta, another the kilesa that has been eradicated, still another the remaining kilesa and finally nibbana. For those who attain arahanta-magga and arahata-phala, there is no examination of the rest of the kilesa because the arahanta-magga-citta eradicates all the kilesa completely, without any remnants. (End quote) It is normal to have doubts or uncertainties when this nana has not arisen, to know things exactly. But even after any level of attainment, it is forbidden for the person to declare their achievement although they realize the truth fully. That only the Buddha could do for anyone. This is in the vinaya. The Dhamma can be taught or discussed by anyone, while the pacceka Buddha might not teach at all, although he is an arahanta. There are several instances where the teachers who taught the dhamma according to the Buddha's teachings and caused many people to attain arahantship when they themselves had not reached any stage of enlightenment. But the Buddha had, as has been quoted before in this list, taught all we need to know about the path 'holding nothing back'. Everything we need is in the Tipitaka, in the Dhamma which he left as teacher in his place, and as long as the dhamma is there, he is still with us. I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings, Amara > > Dear Herman, > > Panna is not wisdom to know things as they really are for nothing. > The arahanta would know they have reached that stage, although that > stage without kilesa is also without mana that makes them distinguish > their nama and rupa from the rest of nama and rupa. After each level > of attainment there is a nana that goes revues all the kilesa > eradicated and all that is left, so none of the ariya puggala could > ever mistake the level they are at and what there is left to > eradicate. > > Amara > > > Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters > they > > are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer know > > an Arahant? > > > > I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that > the > > concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable) > > (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable). > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > > > 5033 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Erik, I'm torn between that pool dip and a not to you...maybe just a quick one for now! Just to say I appreciated all your trouble in sharing this background....you can really play a very important role here....and I rather enjoy any of the debates with you! I have a dear friend who is always talking to me about 'Pure Land' and now I understand a little better where this comes from. I have practised yoga and pranayama for a very long time and also studied Chinese healing systems etc. However I have no idea at all of any of these having anything to do with Buddhism or what the Buddha taught. For similar reasons, I have misgivings about whether tantra and the other practices you mention can really be considered 'Buddhist' in this sense and how they help develop any understanding or kusala at this moment. I'm getting distracted and I know this is not an adequate response, but it'll probably have to wait til I'm home for more! Perhaps others will debate better! Sarah --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Erik > > > > > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited > that > > > temptation for > > > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having > been > > > well-established in > > > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be > > > "vajrayanic." It is > > > either what you are (physiologically) or it is > not. > > > You can't choose > > > it; it chooses you. > > > > I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before. > > Would you mind giving a short explanation? > Thanks. > > Vajrayana literally means 'diamond vehicle,' the > appellation applied > to the form of Buddhism that arose in India and was > well-represented > (fairly dominant even I beleive) from the 8th > century on in various > monasteries like Nalanada (the Mahasiddha Naropa is > the root lineage- > holder of the Tibetan Kagyu and Geluk and Sakya > schools, and Naropa > was abbot of Nalanda). These teachings in particular > include that > various tantras. It seems all these practices arose > in a real > hothouse environment of the time in India. I am not > even close to > being a historian though, so please take this with a > grain of salt, > as it's to the best of my recollection. > > The etymology: Vajra is Sanskrit for 'diamond' as I > assume many here > are aware. Vajra also has many many deeper meanings > in Tibetan, where > it is known as Do-rJe (dorje), which literally means > 'Lord of > Stones'. > > One thing this symbolizes is the "adamantine wisdom" > of ongoing > realization. The Vajra is also symbolizes the > thunderbolt, which > represents the flash of insight that arises with > realization of > anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The dorje is also the > implement of Indra > (as well as the Tibetan version of Indra, > Vajrapani). Another meaning > I devised for this from my own painful experience is > fact that > there's only one known way to make a diamond, and > that's enormous > heat and pressure applied for a VERY long time. This > is very true in > tantra. When Kundalini (prana/chi) is activated > either through > natural ripening or forced with tantric energy > yogas, it's like being > tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where > akusala kamma is > consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna > into the purest > and most indestructible substance known to man. > > Since you asked, perhaps it would be helpful to > explain a bit about > tantric theory, since it a source of great confusion > for many people. > I have debated a LOT internally about the > justification and need for > tantra given the Buddha did not explicitly teach it > in the suttas. > And, the fact is, there is not a hair of difference > between the > understanding of the Four Noble Truths and anicca, > dukkha, and anatta > in the Tibetan Buddhadharma between what is taught > in the Theravada. > The agreement on this between systems--and I can say > this having > received correct teachings from teachers in both > lineages--is 100%, > even though presentations of the same thing differ > markedly, the > Tibetan relying largely on Nagarjuna's "Root > Treatise on the Middle > Way" (Mulamadhyamakakarika) for its presentation of > anatta, in this > case described as emptiness. > > I came to the conclusion that tantra is essential > for some people, > simply because of physiological makeup. If the > Kundalini starts > functioning you HAVE to deal with it. There is > simply no choice, > beacuse it can precipitate all sorts of really nasty > side-effects if > one is not prepared for it. So it's not even a > matter of preference > for many people, but a real necessity. Failing to > properly harness > and control activated Kundalini can lead to serious > psychological and > even physical problems, the worst recorded examples > being insanity > and death. (One reason tantra is called "walking the > razor's edge"). > > Tantric theory derives from the function of the > "prana" or life > energy that circulates in the body, the same thing > as taught in both > Traditional Chinese Medicine and Indian Ayurvedic > medicine, and > central to this physiological understanding are the > "chakras." Indian > tantrikas, both Buddhist and Hindu, discovered that > through certain > types of hatha yoga emphasizing breath control and > visualzation, one > can engender states of "inconceivable" bliss. Bliss > that has one very > interesting property: it somehow does NOT act as a > condition for > lobha. In other words, there is no clinging to this > type of bliss > generated in the practice of tantra. Another > interesting property of > this bliss is that it thoroughly pacifies the > nivaranas and acts as a > foundation for directly realizing emptiness (anatta) > when it arises > in meditation. > > The aim of tantric Buddhism is to harness this > capacity for bliss > built into this fathom-long body to open the door to > liberation. This > bliss is considered akin to nulclear fusion energy > as well, because > after a certain point it becomes self-sustaining in > terms of > engendering unstoppable bliss that supports acts of > virtue and > enables one to accumulate vast reserves of kusala > kamma, which is > taught to be necessary for attaining Buddhahood in > this lifetime. > When the Kundalini is fully activated this way, > there is the free > flow of prana throughout the body, but most > important through > the "heart chakra." Kundalini "bliss" effects are > all lokiya, and as > such are not confused with lokuttara realizations. > > This condition of fully awakened Kundalini is known > as a "tantric > paradise" or "pure land" and this is attained IN > THIS BODY. > This "tantric paradise" then serves as the > foundation for attaining > Buddhahood in the same lifetime. This tantric > paradise means that one > is inhabiting a state of perpetual > bliss-consciousness in this body. > This is supposed to be a very nice place to work out > one's final > liberation, because dukkha is strongly pacified > (though not > terminated, which is as always only via lokuttara > nana) by this > attainment. > > And just a note: Buddhahood is NOT "coming back > again and again" or > in direct contradiction to anything taught in the > Tripitaka about > final realization. It is still the blowing out of > the defilements, > though through a somewhat different strategy. The > final result is > still lokuttara, in other words--no god-realms, > atman, or any of that > some folks believe. I have been saddened by some of > the distortions > I've seen from people who should be much more > thorough in > investigating things they wish to criticize. I see > basic distortions > and misunderstanding on very basic points, for > example, attributing > Advaita Vedanta views like "non-duality" to it. One > particularly > serious misrepresentation of the Mahayana is this > one: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html > > This is like someone saying that the Abhidhamma is > anariyan Dhamma > because it asserts inherently existent realities. > That notion of > course IS wrong, but it isn't the Abhidhamma's > fault; it would be > based solely on a misunderstanding of paramattha > dhammas, someone > else's ideas I took at face-value without carefully > investigating > what the proponents of the Abhidhamma are actually > teaching. > > Anyway, I hope you find this of some use. It will > hopefully better > help you and I continue our conversations (and > debates!) as well. > 5034 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 5:50pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Dear mike, The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a poignant summary of the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. What a contrast to the Tipitaka! Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern writers, I think their differences with the original teachings lie mostly in the pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, discouraging, almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) is a striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, uplifting style of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? Dan 5035 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:08pm Subject: The corruptions of insight At the early stages of meditation practice, it is very easy to confuse the fruits of concentration with the fruits of insight and to confuse minor insights with major insights. Although such confusion is bound to arise to some degree or another, some of the sting of the confusion may be reduced by reviewing the "corruptions of insight" from time to time. The Ten Corruptions of Insight (Ven. Mahasi's summary) When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is able to keep exclusively to the present body-and-mind process, without looking back to past processes or ahead to future ones, then, as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a brilliant light will appear to him. To one it will appear like the light of a lamp, to others like a flash of lightning, or like the radiance of the moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for just one moment, with others it may last longer. There will also arise in him strong mindfulness pertaining to insight. As a result, all the successive arisings of bodily and mental processes will present themselves to the consciousness engaged in noticing, as if coming to it of themselves; and mindfulness too seems as if alighting on the processes of itself. Therefore the meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind prcess in which mindfulness fails to engage." His knowledge consisting in insight, here called "noticing," will be likewise keen, strong, and lucid. Consequently, he will discern clearly and in separate forms all the bodily and mental processes noticed, as if cutting to pieces a bamboo sprout with a well-sharpened knife. Therefore the meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind process that cannot be noticed." When examining the characteristics of impermanence, etc., or other aspects of reality, he understands everything quite clearly and at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge derived from direct experience. Further, strong faith pertaining to insight arises in him. Under its influence, the meditator's mind, when engaged in noticing or thinking, is serene and without any disturbance; and when he is engaged in recollecting the virtues of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, his mind quite easily gives itself over to them. There arise in him the wish to proclaim the Buddha's Teaching, joyous confidence in the virtues of those engaged in meditation, the desire to advise dear friends and relatives to practise meditation, grateful remembrance of the help received from his meditation master, his spiritual mentor, etc. These and many other similar mental processes will occur. There arises also rapture in its five grades, beginning with minor rapture. When purification of mind is gained, that rapture begins to appear by causing "goose-flesh," tremor in the limbs, etc.; and now it produces a sublime feeling of happiness and exhilaration, filling the whole body with an exceedingly sweet and subtle thrill. Under its influence, he feels as if the whole body had risen up and remained in the air without touching the ground, or as if it were seated on an air cushion, or as if it were floating up and down. There arises tranquillity of mind with the characteristic of quietening the disturbances of consciousness and its mental concomitants; and along with it appear mental agility, etc. When walking, standing, sitting, or reclining there is, under the influence of these mental qualities, no disturbance of consciousness and its mental concomitants, nor heaviness, rigidity, unwieldiness, sickness, or crookedness. Rather, his consciousness and its mental concomitants are tranquil through having reached the supreme relief in non-action. They are agile in always functioning swiftly; they are pliant in being able to attend to any object desired; they are wieldy, in being able to attend to an object for any length of time desired; they are quite lucid through their proficiency, that is, through the ease with which insight penetrates the object; they are also straight through being directed, inclined, and turned only towards wholesome activities. There also arises a very sublime feeling of happiness suffusing all his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly joyous and he believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now, indeed, I have found happiness never felt before," and he wants to tell others of his extraordinary experience. With reference to that rapture and happiness, which are aided by the factors of tranquillity, etc., it was said: Superhuman is the bliss of a monk Who, with mind at peace, Having entered a secluded place, Wins insight into Dhamma. When he fully comprehends The five groups' rise and fall, He wins to rapture and to joy -- The Deathless this, for those who understand. Dhammapada vv. 373-374 There arises in him energy that is neither too lax nor too tense but is vigorous and acts evenly. For formerly his energy was sometimes lax, and so he was overpowered by sloth and torpor; hence he could not notice keenly and continuously the objects as they became evident, and his understanding, too, was not clear. And at other times his energy was too tense, and so he was overpowered by agitation, with the same result of being unable to notice keenly, etc. But now his energy is neither too lax nor too tense, but is vigorous and acts evenly; and so, overcoming these shortcomings of sloth, torpor, and agitation, he is able to notice the objects present keenly and continuously, and his understanding is quite clear, too. There also arises in him strong equanimity associated with insight, which is neutral towards all formations. Under its influence he regards with neutrality even his examination of the nature of these formations with respect to their being impermanent, etc.; and he is able to notice keenly and continuously the bodily and mental processes arising at the time. Then his activity of noticing is carried on without effort, and proceeds, as it were, of itself. Also in adverting to the objects, there arises in him strong equanimity, by virtue of which his mind enters, as it were, quickly into the objects of advertence. There arises further a subtle attachment of a calm nature that enjoys the insight graced with the "brilliant light" and the other qualities here described. The meditator, however, is not able to discern it as a corruption but believes it to be just the very bliss of meditation. So meditators speak in praise of it thus: "Only now do I find full delight in meditation!" Having felt such rapture and happiness accompanied by the "brilliant light" and enjoying the very act of perfect noticing, which is ably functioning with ease and rapidity, the meditator now believes: "Surely I must have attained to the supramundane path and fruition![33] Now I have finished the task of meditation." This is mistaking what is not the path for the path, and it is a corruption of insight which usually takes place in the manner just described. But even if the meditator does not take the "brilliant light" and the other corruptions as an indication of the path and fruition, still he feels delight in them. This is likewise a corruption of insight. Therefore, the knowledge consisting in noticing, even if quick in its functioning, is called "the early stage of (or 'weak') knowledge of arising and passing away," if it is beset and corrupted by those corruptions. For the same reason the meditator is at that time not in a position to discern quite distinctly the arising and passing away of bodily and mental processes. 5036 From: Herman Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:09pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Dear Dan, If I may say, you have expressed in a very constructive and edifying manner some of the misgivings I have been dealing with for some time. Thank you. I have a srong Calvinistic background, and still feel an urgent sense of relief that I have somehow managed to escape from the bondage of the doctrines of predestination and double predestination. Briefly, the first doctrine holds that God has elected, from before time, only a small number of people to salvation, and that God purposefully intervenes in the lives of these elect to achieve this goal. Double predestination holds the same, with the added bonus that all those not elected to salvation, were actually elected by God to eternal damnation, and that God actively works in those lives to achieve that damnation. Don't laugh, this is a world view for millions of people around the globe. I find some of the teachings I encounter around these parts to be equally deterministic. In my view, determinism / fatalism renders the effort required to breathe futile. If I am not perfect now, I never will be. Kind Regards Herman --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > Dear mike, > The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a poignant summary of > the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. What a contrast to > the Tipitaka! > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern writers, I > think their differences with the original teachings lie mostly in the > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, discouraging, > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) is a > striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, uplifting style > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? > > Dan 5037 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:38pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Hi Herman, I've read some Sproul, which I found fascinating. There really is some similarity between the protestant doctrine of predestination and anatta. The Christian path to salvation is to develop faith (i.e. let the ego subside enough to let God guide your life). Christianity is much more vague about just HOW to do it though, and the Calvinists in particular tend to say "faith is a gift of the H.S.--you either have it or you don't". The Buddhist path is expounded in detail in the Tipitaka, and the development of wisdom (which is akin to the Christian notion of "faith") CAN be undertaken. Dan 5038 From: Erik Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > I have practised yoga and pranayama for a very long > time and also studied Chinese healing systems etc. > However I have no idea at all of any of these having > anything to do with Buddhism or what the Buddha > taught. For similar reasons, I have misgivings about > whether tantra and the other practices you mention can > really be considered 'Buddhist' in this sense and how > they help develop any understanding or kusala at this > moment. What is a satisfactory yardstick for developing kusala (and forget "at this moment"--that is a sukkhavipassaka strategy; jhanas and the union of samatha & vipassana are the primary practices in Tibetan Buddhism, recall), such that one can determine what is "Buddhist" from what is not? Where does one draw the line? Only what is found in the Tipitaka (this seems to be the prevalent view here)? This seems far too limiting to me. Every major Zen and Tibetan school teaches ariyan Dhamma, but no debate can settle this; only direct application and experience of the fruits can. The proof in the pudding is always in the tasting. To mix metaphors, there a saying: if the book on ducks says one thing about their behavior, but you observe the ducks acting differently in the wild, believe the ducks, not the books. Even according to the Buddha what is found in the Tipitaka only addresses a handful worth of the leaves found in the entire forest, so this is not suprising. There are two very general currents of thought I have observed regarding the Dhamma, trends that generalize even more broadly in society into orthodoxy and heterodoxy. The orthodox version says the Dhamma is a static entity; the heterodox version that accepts the Dhamma as a dynamic process transforming moment-to-moment, necessarily, because there are no static entites to be found anywhere. I am, and must be, of the heterodox category. I have seen too many different approaches work to pass judgment on any of them. I have seen the fruits both in my own life and in those of others. For me this is not a matter for doubt. Each approach has its advantages, each has its disadvantages. I have seen no indication of the relative superiority or inferiority of any of them. I have seen the relative helpfulness or unhelpfulness of traditions for those of specific accumulations, though. In general terms, those who actually practice and sincerely try to embody the teachings of a given school always seem to come out as friends to be associate with who are worthy of emulation. To me, anyway. 5039 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Dear dan, Is that R.C. Sproul , the american Christian writer? If so I found him a fine philosopher. His book Not a Chance : The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology is excellent . robert --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Hi Herman, > I've read some Sproul, which I found fascinating. There really > is some > similarity between the protestant doctrine of predestination > and > anatta. The Christian path to salvation is to develop faith > (i.e. let > the ego subside enough to let God guide your life). > Christianity is > much more vague about just HOW to do it though, and the > Calvinists in > particular tend to say "faith is a gift of the H.S.--you > either have > it or you don't". The Buddhist path is expounded in detail in > the > Tipitaka, and the development of wisdom (which is akin to the > Christian notion of "faith") CAN be undertaken. > > Dan > 5040 From: Erik Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > Thanks for your detailed explanation. It helps me to > understand where some of our members are coming from. > > My immediate reaction is, to return to an earlier > thread raised by you, that this is an area of definite > departure between the Mahayana and the Therevada > traditions. There are real departures. At the moment the biggest ones are how the fruits are categorized (ten vs. four in Tipitaka) AND the difference in ultimate aim and the definition of a "Buddha." These are the main areas I'm trying to understand, areas in which I have doubt (and will continue to have until such is resolved directly). I have found when texts disagree on a point, there is often a very rich vein to be mined by exploring that difference. I find exploring these differences very revealing of underlying theory as well. > The concept of 'black deeds [being] > transformed by panna into the purest and most > indestructible substance known to man' would seem to > contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. Would SEEM to, that is the key. Seem to. There is no "transformation" of akusala sankharas into kusala sankharas, if that's what you mean. It is a transmuation of all the base characteristics of the personality, via panna, into strenghts. Hatred is transmuted into compassion, for example, through the process or "reversals," a powerful way of dealing with akusala, given it effects transformation not only at the level of restraining bad behavior, but by helping one rewire one's categories to see the world in a different way due to an _epistemological_ reorganization of reality. For example, there is the practice of "pure vision" where one visualizes all beings as already perfected Buddhas. This plays into the teaching found in "Mind Training in Eight Verses" where "when someone whom I have helped and in whome I have placed great hope harms me with great injustice, may I see that one as a sacred friend, for they are rarely met." This takes a typical human problem--people treating us badly--and provides a new lens to view the "problem" through. In this case the tormenter is acting in the capacity of "sacred friend," providing opportunity to practice forbearance and restrain anger. In this way this being of "bad disposition" is actually a greater friend than any other, because this friend is providing the opportunity to overcome mental afflictions. Through their kindness we can terminate the causes to see this happen again through mindfulness at the moment we'd normally respond with anger. I have used this whenever the opportunity arises (and I'm mindful enough to recall it at that moment) because it works so well. Indeed it's the only thing that's kept me sane given some of the vipaka that's been ripening on me the past few years. Without this my presence as a Dhamma practitioner in the first place would be in question. It has literally saved my life. This also really shows in the behavior of those who practice it. It is the most powerful antidote to vyapada and patigha I have ever tried, and for someone with a very big accumulation of these two, I should know whereof I speak. Extrapolate this practice now, to everyone. To see everyone as a "sacred friend." How will that change how you interact with people if you suspect they are all holy beings here as your sacred friend, here to ripen you? That is, very generrally, the process of transformating "bad" into "good." > Likewise, the concept of a source or kind of kusala > outside those enumerated in the suttas would also be > contradictory. Contradictory to what, specifically? The only "contradiction" that matters is if it contradicts that which leads to abandoning akusala, cultivating kusala, and developing the mind with the panna that realizes the lokuttara nana the permanently abandons the samyojanas. Can you point to a case where the practices I outlined do NOT fall into these three categories, and why, specifically, they can't? > To particlarise, if tantric bliss is > kusala, what kind of kusala citta is it and what is > its object? I have no idea. My best guess at the moment is it _could_ be a jhanacitta with the factor of piti energized by viriya to an extraordinarily high degree. Someone raised this question with me in a private email and it's a very intersting idea, one I hadn't considered before. I think you raise a very interesting (and important) question, one I am now inclined to research: how do the Tibetans categorize the cittas arising in this process? I have not seen any documentation on this, but given the thoroughness of the Tibetan scholars I can't imagine no one else has addressed this in the past thousand years. I'll research this point and get back to you, because now I really want to know as well. > Yes, I'm sure it will. Funny thing about our debates > though, Erik. They usually die at an early stage, > with me waiting for an answer from you. The latest > example of this was my recent request for your > explanation of the term 'vipassana' as used in the > context of a statement you made. The definition for vipassana in Tibetan perfectly matches that in the Tipitaka. No point in further defining that on which we agree. That includes all the levels of vipassana-nana enumerated in the Abhidhamma. > I seem to recall > other examples (eg. the meaning of the Eightfold Path > as found in the Mahayana texts). Taught identically in Tibetan Buddhism. Jon, if in doubt always remember this: the Tibetans accept the Tipitaka as the word of the Buddha AS IS. 5041 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 9:27pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) I believe it is the same R.C. Sproul, but I'm not familiar with "Not a chance..." I read "Willing to Believe", which is a historical survey of Christian doctrines about the power of free will to develop faith. > Dear dan, > Is that R.C. Sproul , the american Christian writer? If so I > found him a fine philosopher. His book > Not a Chance : The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and > Cosmology > is excellent . > > robert > > > > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > I've read some Sproul, which I found fascinating. There really > > is some > > similarity between the protestant doctrine of predestination > > and > > anatta. The Christian path to salvation is to develop faith > > (i.e. let > > the ego subside enough to let God guide your life). > > Christianity is > > much more vague about just HOW to do it though, and the > > Calvinists in > > particular tend to say "faith is a gift of the H.S.--you > > either have > > it or you don't". The Buddhist path is expounded in detail in > > the > > Tipitaka, and the development of wisdom (which is akin to the > > Christian notion of "faith") CAN be undertaken. > > > > Dan > > 5042 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:13pm Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)] Hi, Sarah (and all) - > Viriya energizes or 'cheers on' (o.k. I'll drop > cheerleader) the citta to cognize or be conscious of > its object and the other cetasikas to perform their > functions regardless of whether they are kusala or > akusala, and regardless, in conventional language, as > to whether they seem to be energetic or lazy ones...As > we have discussed, the nture of the viriya is > different at each moment, depending on the other > 'ingredients' it is combined with, but I don't see > that we can say it is stronger or weaker depending on > whether it is accompanied by sati or acompanied by > thina and middha (sloth & torpor) for example. > =============================== With regard to viriya, what do you understand to be the difference between it and jivitindriya (sp?), the latter of which I think of as an "enlivening" or "life-giving" or "energizing" faculty? (I'm trying to get a conceptual grasp of some of the cetasikas, and their differences.) One more point: There are certain universal factors which occur in any act of discernment/consciousness such as phassa (contact), viriya (energy), and sa~n~na (marking/recognizing). It almost seems that the co-occurrence of such universal factors, as a group, constitutes by itself, the citta/vi~n~nana. Most specifically, what I wonder about here is what can be the difference between phassa and vi~n~nana; there hardly seems a be a hair's difference betwen the two. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5043 From: Erik Date: Tue May 1, 2001 0:42am Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)] --- Howard wrote: > It almost seems that the co-occurrence of > such universal factors, as a group, constitutes by itself, the > citta/vi~n~nana. Most specifically, what I wonder about here is what can be > the difference between phassa and vi~n~nana; there hardly seems a be a hair's > difference betwen the two. I came across an interesting notion once long ago and more recently, one I've been trying to get more information on. It's called ekacittakkhanika-paticca-samupptada, meaning dependent origination within a single moment of citta. Just speculating on what the Abhidhamma says on this, but it seems that this is how one would distinguish between vinnana and phassa in a way that answers your question. 5044 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) - In a message dated 4/30/01 2:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes to Erik: > The concept of 'black deeds [being] > transformed by panna into the purest and most > indestructible substance known to man' would seem to > contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. > ================================== It seems to me that in the material of Erik's which I quote below, the intention is metaphorical, so that it is not that the black deeds themselves are literally transformed into wisdom and liberation, but that a powerful mix of right mindfulness, concentration, and effort serves to uproot defilements which are the kammic traces of akusala intentions and actions (the black deeds), leading to diamond-like wisdom and liberation. Incidentally, when Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes it as a process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive dispositions/inclinations (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very deepest ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - not so very different, I think, except for the use of metaphorical, poetic language vs more straightforward language, so that the "consuming" of akusala kamma by a purificatory alchemical fire becomes, in more pedestrian speech, the uprooting of kammic traces and the destruction of defilements in the oven of mindfulness (and other insight factors). What Erik wrote was: > ... tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where > akusala kamma is > consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna > into the purest > and most indestructible substance known to man. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5045 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue May 1, 2001 0:54am Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dan wrote: > > This brings up an interesting question, though, > > about why Narada would > > write his comment. He was a wise and learned > > bhikkhu, and I don't > > think he would make such a silly error unless > > there's more to it than > > meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of > > A.S.) writes: "Viriya > > is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its > > proximate cause is > > a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to > > vigorous action." > > Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency > > just doesn't seem to > > apply to just ANY ol' kusala or akusala citta, in particular > > those with thina > > and middha. Sarah: > For me, this is a little misleading, or perhaps that > depends on how one u'stands action. Flat out, unable > to move with dosa, say, and yet there is a sense of > urgency which stirs, not one, but the citta to be > fixed on the object at that moment too. Dan: I don't have any texts with me, but B. Bodhi's use of "urgency" and "vigorous" match closely the idea I have of "viriya" as presented in Vibhanga. Some actions and cittas are vigorous, some are not. In those that are more vigorous, viriya is more prominent. When viriya is subtle, as when thina and middha are strong, it seems to merge with jivitindriya, or maybe it's that your description of viriya is closer to my understanding of jivitindriya. How do you think about jivitindriya and how does it differ from viriya? 5046 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue May 1, 2001 0:57am Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)] > I came across an interesting notion once long ago and more recently, > one I've been trying to get more information on. It's called > ekacittakkhanika-paticca-samupptada, meaning dependent origination > within a single moment of citta. Is it WITHIN a single citta or between cittas? Vibhanga has a nice (but dry and opaque) description of this. A better, but very brief discussion can be found in Nyanaponika's "Abhidhamma Studies" (a very nice book). 5047 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, Sarah - > Hi Howard, > > This was interesting too... > > --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all (especially > Amara) - > > > > I've been looking over the "Summary" again, > > particularly the articles > > on Samatha and Vipassana. > .............................................. > > I suspect that this post may be disappointing > > to a number of you, and, > > for that, I am most regretful. Please do understand > > that I have come to learn > > more about Abhidhamma and to have greater repect for > > it than ever, since > > being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue > > a serious study of it, > > and I would very much like to continue to > > participate in discussions of it > > and other matters on the list. > > I hope you don't mind that I've 'truncated' all the > meat out of your neat message. > > Just a couple (actually, no idea how many as yet) of > brief comments: > > > 1. I doubt anyone would be disappointed to hear that > you find this book is not such easy reading!! > > 2. It's certainly not compulsory reading for these > discussions! > > 3. There are no rules about what Buddhist books or > texts we all read, how we read them or in what order. > > 4. Unlike Num & Rob and the other bright larks that > have the capacity and accumulations to read abhidhamma > and other texts from cover to cover, I'm more like a > slug or snail that takes its time.....I dip in here > and there (actually, maybe I'm more a woodpecker, > Num), go forwards, backwards and sideways...What I > have always been able to do, however, is to consider > pretty carefully what I read or hear. > > 5. At one of the discussions with Khun Sujin and also > under the palm trees by the pool, I've been dipping > into Nina's translation of the same book (can be > downloaded from Zolag or abhidhamm.org websites). This > is not such a literal translation and she also adds a > lot of very helpful notes. You may find it easier > reading. One problem, though, is that the original > Thai book was written from lectures and so it is very > difficult to translate and quite an undetrtaking by > both Amara and Nina. > > 6. Even when we were looking at it together with Khun > Sujin (thanks Betty), we were skipping over the intro, > jumping to Ch3 and then reading a little and > discussing what we'd read....abhidhamma is here and > now, not just in the text. > > K.S. kept reminding us that we should remember the > purpose when we study or read or discuss the details: > it should be to understand more about the realities > appearing in our lives right now!! > > So, Howard, enjoy reading whatever you find useful and > interesting and share anything you like! > > Maybe time for another dip in the pool...After all it > is a holiday (thanks to today being Buddha's birthday > in Hong Kong although it's not 'til next week in Bkk). > > Sarah > ================================== Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly going through Bhikkhu Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put forward questions about the material there to you folks from time to time. (In fact, I already sent off a couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a little while ago.) This is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my pariyatti is concerned. I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number by concentrating on what seem to be the more interesting ones. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5048 From: Erik Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:05am Subject: Problems with dependent origination Speaking of paticca samuppada, there's one thing I have always found bothersome about its ordering I hope some here may help provide insight into. Specifically, the issues I have are with the following: sankhara paccaya vińńana, vińńana paccaya nama-rupa, nama-rupa paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya phassa. This implies the vińńana arises in sole dependence on sankhara, but this leads to a question: how can one meaningfully speak of consciousness (citta) without arammana? To me there is no such thing, because consciousness is _defined_ by its relationship to aramanna, _unless_ by this forumlation the Buddha is saying something else about the nature of awareness, that it does _not_ depend on a subject, which to me defies all reason. How can vińńana possibly perform the function of being aware if there is no phassa at this point? I continue to find the entire formulation of paticca samuppada suspect because of this sequence, and given the comprehensiveness of Buddhist thinkers I can't imagine my concerns have gone unaddressed, given the centrality of paticca samuppada. 5049 From: Erik Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:09am Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)] --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > Is it WITHIN a single citta or between cittas? Vibhanga has a nice > (but dry and opaque) description of this. A better, but very brief > discussion can be found in Nyanaponika's "Abhidhamma Studies" (a very > nice book). All Nanaponika Thera did was whet my appetite for this without providing any supporting detail other than the fact that this is formulated differently depending on the type of citta. And it IS within a single moment of citta, as far as I know, from avijja through jara-marana within not a vithi but the citta itself (ekacittakkhanika, and all that). 5050 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Hi, Dan (and Mike, and all) - In a message dated 4/30/01 5:50:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Dan writes: > Dear mike, > The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a poignant summary of > the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. What a contrast to > the Tipitaka! > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern writers, I > think their differences with the original teachings lie mostly in the > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, discouraging, > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) is a > striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, uplifting style > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? > > Dan > =================================== Thank you for this post. I have observed streams of thought within Theravada (and Mahayana, though I an less knowkedgeable there), both ancient and modern, that are uplifting, encouraging, and right-in-line with the Buddhadhamma as I read it in the Tipitaka (mainly from the Sutta Pitaka in my case). But I have also encountered backwaters that tend to depression, fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the impossibility of "getting there from here", and others of which are contrary to middle-way and anattata aspects of the Dhamma. I think that each of us has to be careful, and has to remember that that which is conducive to well being and to moving towards freedom is what we should treat as Sat-Dhamma, and that which leads us away the goal should be avoided as wrong view. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5051 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:41am Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination Hi Sam! You wrote: > This implies the vińńana arises in sole dependence on sankhara SOLE dependence? Are you sure? 5052 From: Erik Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:56am Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > You wrote: > > This implies the vińńana arises in sole dependence on sankhara > SOLE dependence? Are you sure? Dan, I read what I wrote at fiurst, and then very consciously deleted that word. Then I though about it a bit more, and then very consciously put it back in before hitting "Send." You tell me why. :) 5053 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:15am Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination > > > This implies the vińńana arises in sole dependence on sankhara > > SOLE dependence? Are you sure? > > Dan, I read what I wrote at fiurst, and then very consciously deleted > that word. Then I though about it a bit more, and then very > consciously put it back in before hitting "Send." You tell me why. :) Here's a guess. You wrote "soul" dependence the first time. It didn't look right, so you changed it to "sole." That looked better! No, no, that can't be right. How about: You know darn well that it is not "sole" dependence because nothing in paticca-sammuppada is "sole" dependence, but you wanted to test us! No, that can't be it either. You weren't sure whether the dependence was "sole" or not and thought you'd better ask. No, that doesn't seem quite right. Or maybe you were clinging to unpleasant mental sensations of doubt and honest-to-goodness dosa ["This silly Theravada crap doesn't make any sense!" ;) ], and your clinging obscured the truth from you. No, that doesn't seem right either. Hmmm... Maybe you realized that if the word "sole" was not in there, your question would be answered, but you still wanted to pose your original question. Is that closer? If so, then the question is, why would you still want to pose a question that you already knew the answer to? A guess: You felt like you owned the question and didn't want to let it go? Good ideas nirodha, silly posts nirodha. Or is it good-ideas-nirodha paccaya silly posts? You tell me. :) 5054 From: Erik Date: Tue May 1, 2001 6:03am Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination --- Dan wrote: > Hmmm... Maybe you realized that if the word "sole" was not in there, > your question would be answered, but you still wanted to pose your > original question. Is that closer? How about just, "why not?" I don't always have a rational explanation for everything I do. Just going by the Suttas I've read I haven't seen any satisfactory explanation of paticca samuppada that talks about the conditions pertaining to each nidana. My reference up to now has been the Maha-Nidana Sutta (and to a more limited extent the Visuddhimagga): "21. "I have said: `Consciousness conditions mind-and-body.' . . . If consciousness were not to come into the mother's womb, would mind-and- body develop there?" "No, Lord." "Or if consciousness, having entered the mother's womb, were to be deflected, would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?" "No, Lord." "And if the consciousness of such a tender young being, boy or girl, were thus cut off, would mind-and-body grow, develop and mature?" "No, Lord." "Therefore, Ananda, just this, namely consciousness, is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of mind-and-body. 22. "I have said: `Mind-and-body conditions consciousness.' . . . If consciousness did not find a resting-place in mind-and-body, would there subsequently be an arising and coming-to-be of birth, ageing, death and suffering?" "No, Lord." "Therefore, Ananda, just this, namely mind-and-body, is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of consciousness. Thus far the cause, the origin, the condition of consciousness. Thus far then, Ananda, we can trace birth and decay, death and falling into other states and being reborn, thus far extends the way of designation, of concepts, thus far is the sphere of understanding, thus far the round goes as far as can be discerned in this life, namely to mind-and-body together with consciousness." The Buddha here is saying that nama-rupa and vinnana condition each other. Yet everywhere else I've seen the nidanas treated as sequential states with the most common formulation being X paccaya Y in what looks to me like a time-linear sequence. Unless dependent origination can be viewed apart from temporal linearity, with these elements arising together as mutual or concomitant conditions, in the way that cetasikas arise as the concomitants of their respective cittas. Speaking of linear sequence, if one considers that vipaka from sankharas is consciousness in the form of vipakacitta, I can see this relationship working more clearly. However, consciousness still requires an object and phassa, so the placement still doesn't make too much sense if these are time-linear. Also, the Buddha notes that after birth, nama-rupa and vinnana serve as mutual conditions for one another. This would imply to me that I would have to chuck my present linear conception of paticca samuppada for this to make more sense. Any thoughts? > Good ideas nirodha, silly posts nirodha. Or is it good-ideas- nirodha > paccaya silly posts? > > You tell me. :) Good posts paccaya good posts. The vipaka just hasn't manifested yet. :) 5055 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Dear Howard and Dan, > > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern > writers, I > > think their differences with the original teachings lie > mostly in the > > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, > discouraging, > > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) > is a > > striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, > uplifting style > > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? > > > > Dan > > > =================================== > I have also encountered backwaters that tend to > depression, > fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the > impossibility of > "getting there from here", and others of which are contrary to > middle-way and > anattata aspects of the Dhamma. _________ Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by lottery, the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on my posts since I am asking. thanks robert 5056 From: robert Date: Tue May 1, 2001 8:09am Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) - > when > Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes it as a > process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive dispositions/inclinations > (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very deepest > ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - ____________ Could you explain this more Howard. I haven't seen vipassana described in this way in the Tipitaka. Robertr 5057 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Problems with dependent origination Hi, Erik - In a message dated 4/30/01 1:07:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Erik writes: > Speaking of paticca samuppada, there's one thing I have always found > bothersome about its ordering I hope some here may help provide > insight into. > > Specifically, the issues I have are with the following: > > sankhara paccaya vińńana, vińńana paccaya nama-rupa, nama-rupa > paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya phassa. > > This implies the vińńana arises in sole dependence on sankhara, but > this leads to a question: how can one meaningfully speak of > consciousness (citta) without arammana? To me there is no such thing, > because consciousness is _defined_ by its relationship to aramanna, > _unless_ by this forumlation the Buddha is saying something else > about the nature of awareness, that it does _not_ depend on a > subject, which to me defies all reason. How can vińńana possibly > perform the function of being aware if there is no phassa at this > point? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, I don't think that in the presenting of the 12-link wheel of dependent origination it is implied that link i+1 has link i as the *only* condition for its arising. In fact, elsewhere I believe that it is implied that *several* conditions coming together are what typically serve as cause for the arising of a new condition. Also, in certain formulations of paticca samupadda, vi~n~nana and namarupa are explicity said to be mutually directly dependent, like two bundles of straw each supporting the other, so that were either bundle to fall, so would the other. Moreover, since the wheel of dependent origination, both in the 3-lifetime interpretation of Buddhaghosa and in the moment-to-moment interpretation of, for example, Budhhadasa, is, indeed, a *wheel*, every instance of a link in that wheel, indirectly, has previous instances of all the other links, and even instances of the same link, as conditions for its arising, so that, for example, one moment of vi~n~nana is conditioned by previous moments of vi~n~nana. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > I continue to find the entire formulation of paticca samuppada > suspect because of this sequence, and given the comprehensiveness of > Buddhist thinkers I can't imagine my concerns have gone unaddressed, > given the centrality of paticca samuppada. ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5058 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/30/01 1:07:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > (In fact, I already sent off a > ======================== I was in error here. My questions were actually directed yo *you*! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5059 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/30/01 7:44:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > Dear Howard and Dan, > > > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern > > writers, I > > > think their differences with the original teachings lie > > mostly in the > > > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, > > discouraging, > > > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) > > is a > > > striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, > > uplifting style > > > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? > > > > > > Dan > > > > > =================================== > > I have also encountered backwaters that tend to > > depression, > > fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the > > impossibility of > > "getting there from here", and others of which are contrary to > > middle-way and > > anattata aspects of the Dhamma. > > _________ > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting > fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by lottery, > the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is > "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on my > posts since I am asking. > thanks > robert > ============================ Why would you think that I have found such promotion of fatalism etc in the writings on this list, and particularly within your writings? In fact, I have not. I certainly have never interpreted anything you have written as fatalistic, discouraging, or depressing - quite the contrary, in fact. But I do, from time to time, come across sentiments, in various places (other than here) which suggest such things as the time for the Buddha's dispensation being past (and thus all practice being basically hopeless), and for example that no one can attain the jhanas any longer. I also have come across other mistatements of basic elements of the Dhamma such as interpreting the sabhava of paramattha dhammas as contradicting their emptiness, a doctrine which the knowledgeable members of this list, including yourself, have refuted when i inquired about it. So, while I can't speak for anyone else, I can tell you truly that what I wrote has no relationship to anything you or others have written on this list. I hope this clarifies matters for you on this issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5060 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:02am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting > fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by lottery, It's not so much writers promoting these things as readers being left with these impressions--two very different things. I've written about this on the list and off-list several times before, as have many other dsg dabblers. I'd be glad to write about it again but it will have to wait a few days... > the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is > "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on my > posts since I am asking. These are Howard's words and go a step beyond mine, so perhaps he could explain this better. Dan 5061 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 6:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/30/01 8:15:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) - > > when > > Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes > it as a > > process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive > dispositions/inclinations > > (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very > deepest > > ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - > ____________ > Could you explain this more Howard. I haven't seen vipassana > described in this way in the Tipitaka. > Robertr > ============================= Sure, I'll be happy to. I don't have the time to do so right now, because I will want to quote from a "Goenka-authorized" book, but I will say more about this soon. Perhaps I haven't represented Goenka's position faithfully, because when I read it, it seemed at the time to be rather standard. His meditation technique sure does seem to be effective, but that doesn't necessarily imply that he actually understands correctly how it works. In any case, I will write some more about this soon, and iIlook forward to discussing it with you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5062 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:22am Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination > > Hmmm... Maybe you realized that if the word "sole" was not in > there, > > your question would be answered, but you still wanted to pose your > > original question. Is that closer? > > How about just, "why not?" Sounds good to me! It was fun taking you up on your invitation to speculate, though... >My reference up to > now has been the Maha-Nidana Sutta (and to a more limited extent the > Visuddhimagga): The Mahanidana sutta has a slightly different formulation than elsewhere in Tipitaka. Have you read B. Bodhi's introduction to this sutta in his translation (with commentaries)? It's been quite awhile since I've ploughed through it, but it is good (although I do not remember much detail). > The Buddha here is saying that nama-rupa and vinnana condition each > other. Yet everywhere else I've seen the nidanas treated as > sequential states with the most common formulation being X paccaya Y > in what looks to me like a time-linear sequence. "Paccaya" doesn't imply a time-linear sequence. After all, doesn't the round occur WITHIN each moment of consciousness? (see Vibhanga) Nor does it imply that each condition is the sole condition. Nor does it imply that if one of the conditions is present, the next necessarily arises (in particular, vedana paccaya tanha, but vedana does not IMPLY tanha automatically follows). Unless dependent > origination can be viewed apart from temporal linearity, with these > elements arising together as mutual or concomitant conditions, in the > way that cetasikas arise as the concomitants of their respective > cittas. > Speaking of linear sequence, if one considers that vipaka from > sankharas is consciousness in the form of vipakacitta, I can see this > relationship working more clearly. However, consciousness still > requires an object and phassa, so the placement still doesn't make > too much sense if these are time-linear. Also, the Buddha notes that > after birth, nama-rupa and vinnana serve as mutual conditions for one > another. This would imply to me that I would have to chuck my present > linear conception of paticca samuppada for this to make more sense. > > Any thoughts? The teaching is deep. One meaning of this is that the paticca- sammupada can be looked at from many different angles--one of which is "time-linear", but that's not necessary. > > Good ideas nirodha, silly posts nirodha. Or is it good-ideas- > nirodha > > paccaya silly posts? > > > > You tell me. :) > > Good posts paccaya good posts. The vipaka just hasn't manifested > yet. :) Good point... 5063 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:32am Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' Dear Robert and Howard et al., Howard wrote: > > > when > > > Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes > > it as a > > > process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive > > dispositions/inclinations > > > (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very > > deepest > > > ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - Robert wrote: > > Could you explain this more Howard. I haven't seen vipassana > > described in this way in the Tipitaka. This is how I hear Goenka too. SOMEWHERE in Vissudhimagga it says this is NOT how things work (Goenka: "eliminate the old stock of sankhara" by establishing equanimity--the old sankharas bubble up to the surface and pass away when you stop generating new ones in the contemplation of sankharuppekka-nyana. When the old ones are all gone, voila!, liberation. It's been many years since my last Goenka retreat, so my memory may be a bit sketchy. Maybe Howard can help us more...). On the other hand, Vism. does discuss the gross, medium, and subtle kilesa and the methods of dealing with them (pardon me for using such an offending phrase, Jon!). 5064 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Ah! Sorry Howard, I must have been feeling sensitive. Thanks for this. Just to add. I think on this list some of us, including me, do suggest that the path is profound and takes much investigation and circumspection; whereas sometimes, in some quarters of buddhism, it is presented as a relatively straightforward process. This emphasis on preliminaries may seem discouraging if one thinks that the main factors are a lot of effort and a quiet place to sit. However, for the brave this should only increase their determination to give up the clinging to self. The more one understands anatta and conditionality the more any moment in life can be seen. The theory is very supportive of right practice; and too the more 'life' is broken into only a moment of nama or rupa the better the theory is comprehended. We are human and we have heard the sublime Dhamma of a Sammasambuddha. He has explained the Dhamma in manifold ways, he has explained all types of kusala. There are so many opportunties in a day to develop different types of kusala. We pick an insect out of the toilet bowl - kusala. We think kindly of someone we pass in the street- kusala. We are patient when someone is abrubt at work- kusala. We are patient with a headache- kusala. Consider Dhamma -kusala. And so much more. And this isn't even mentioning satipatthana. All kusala becomes easier to develop the more it is known that it is anatta. Then we feel "let anything happen": illness, accident, loss of livelihood, even death. Let it come because it is conditioned . The realities are only namas and rupas - they are insignificant, not us. Then one can even reflect when some great pain or loss strikes that it is not my body or my mind or my feeling. Understanding is at so many different levels - if we can't do that yet one shouldn't feel discouraged- but this is where it does lead. Then too one doesn't mind if citta is not calm - it is not "our" citta. This is the type of detachment that is worth striving for. robert I have also encountered backwaters that tend to > > > depression, > > > fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the > > > impossibility of > > > "getting there from here", and others of which are > contrary to > > > middle-way and > > > anattata aspects of the Dhamma. > > > > _________ > > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting > > fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by > lottery, > > the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is > > "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on > my > > posts since I am asking. > > thanks > > robert > > > ============================ > Why would you think that I have found such promotion of > fatalism etc > in the writings on this list, and particularly within your > writings? In fact, > I have not. I certainly have never interpreted anything you > have written as > fatalistic, discouraging, or depressing - quite the contrary, > in fact. But I > do, from time to time, come across sentiments, in various > places (other than > here) which suggest such things as the time for the Buddha's > dispensation > being past (and thus all practice being basically hopeless), > and for example > that no one can attain the jhanas any longer. I also have come > across other > mistatements of basic elements of the Dhamma such as > interpreting the sabhava > of paramattha dhammas as contradicting their emptiness, a > doctrine which the > knowledgeable members of this list, including yourself, have > refuted when i > inquired about it. So, while I can't speak for anyone else, I > can tell you > truly that what I wrote has no relationship to anything you or > others have > written on this list. I hope this clarifies matters for you on > this issue. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 5065 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) --- Dan wrote: > > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting > > fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by > lottery, > It's not so much writers promoting these things as readers > being left > with these impressions--two very different things. I've > written about > this on the list and off-list several times before, as have > many > other dsg dabblers. I'd be glad to write about it again but it > will > have to wait a few days... > Well as I just wrote to Howard I may have been oversensitive here. What I got from your earlier post is that you feel some dsg(and perhaps Nina's writings?) are correctly portraying the Dhamma BUT don't put enough emphasis on effort and some other factors of the path? Perhaps too much stress on anatta and theoretical understanding? In other words, as you indicated, a difference in pedagogy rather than content? Anyway look forward to further discussion. Robert 5066 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 8:54am Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Hi, Robert - Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may shed some light on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the original): *********************************************************** Pain exists, misery exists. Crying will not free anyone of misery. How is one to come out of it? How is one to live with it? A doctor treating a sick person must know what the sickness is, and what the fundamental cause of the sickness is. If there is a cause, then there must be a way out, by removing the cause. Once the cause is removed, the sickness will automatically be removed. Tberefore steps must be taken to eradicate the cause. First one must accept the fact of suffering. Everywhere suffering exists; this is a universal truth. But it becomes a noble truth when one starts observing it without reacting, because anyone who does so is bound to become a noble, saintly person. When one starts observing the First Noble Truth, the truth of suffering, then very quickly the cause of suffering becomes clear, and one starts observing it also; this is the Second Noble Truth. If the cause is eradicated, then suffering is eradicated; this is the Third Noble Truth--the eradication of suffering. To achieve its eradication one must take steps; this is the Fourth Noble Truth--the way to end suffering by eradicating its cause. One begins by learning to observe without reacting. Examine the pain that you experience objectively, as if it is someone else's pain. Inspect it like a scientist who observes an experiment in his laboratory. When you fail, try again. Keep trying, and you will find that gradually you are coming out of suffering. Every living being suffers. Life starts with crying; birth is a great suffering. And anyone who has been born is bound to encounter the sufferings of sickness and old age. But no matter how miserable one's life may be, nobody wants to die, because death is a great suffering. Throughout life, one encounters things that one does not like, and is separated from things that one likes. Unwanted things happen, wanted things do not happen, and one feels miserable. Simply understanding this reality at the intellectual level will not liberate anyone. It can only give inspiration to look within oneself, in order to experience truth and to find the way out of misery. This is what Siddhattha Gotama did to become a Buddha: he started observing reality within the framework of his body like a research scientist, moving from gross, apparent truth to subtler truth, to the subtlest truth. He found that whenever one develops craving, whether to keep a pleasant sensation or to get rid of an unpleasant one, and that craving is not fulfilled, then one starts suffering. And going further, at the subtlest level, he found that when seen with a fully collected mind, it is clear that attachment to the five aggregates is suffering. Intellectually one may understand that the material aggregate, the body, is not "I", not "mine", but merely an impersonal, changing phenomenon which is beyond one's control; actually, however, one identifies with the body, and develops tremendous attachment to it. Similarly one develops attachment to the four mental aggregates of consciousness, perception, sensation, reaction, and clings to them as "I", "mine" despite their constantly changing nature. For conventional purposes one must use the words "I" and "mine", but when one develops attachment to the five aggregates, one creates suffering for oneself. Wherever there is attachment, there is bound to be misery, and the greater the attachment, the greater the misery. There are four types of attachment that one keeps developing in life. The first is attachment to one's desires, to the habit of craving. Whenever craving arises in the mind, it is accompanied by a physical sensation. Although at a deep level a storm of agitation has begun, at a superficial level one likes the sensation and wishes it to continue. This can be compared with scratching a sore: doing so will only aggravate it, and yet one enjoys the sensation of scratching. In the same way, as soon as a desire is fulfilled, the sensation that accompanied the desire is also gone, and so one generates a fresh desire in order that the sensation may continue. One becomes addicted to craving and multiplies one's misery. Another attachment is the clinging to "I", "mine", without knowing what this 'I' really is. One cannot bear any criticism of one's "I" or any harm to it. And the attachment spreads to include whatever belongs to "I", whatever is "mine". This attachment would not bring misery if whatever is "mine" could continue eternally, and the "I" also could remain to enjoy it eternally, but the law of nature is that sooner or later one or the other must pass away. Attachment to what is impermanent is bound to bring misery. Similarly, one develops attachment to one's views and beliefs, and cannot bear any criticism of them, or even accept that others may have differing views. One does not understand that everyone wears coloured glasses, a different colour for each person. By removing the glasses, one can see reality as it is, untinted, but instead one remains attached to the colour of one's glasses, to one's own preconceptions and beliefs. Yet another attachment is the clinging to one's rites, rituals, and religious practices. One fails to understand that these are all merely outward shows, that they do not contain the essence of truth. If someone is shown the way to experience truth directly within himself but continues to cling to empty external forms, this attachment produces a tug-of-war in such a person, resulting in misery. All the sufferings of life, if examined closely, will be seen to arise from one or another of these four attachments. In his search for truth, this is what Siddhattha Gotamna found. Yet he continued investigating within himself to discover the deepest cause of suffering, to understand how the entire phenomenon works, to trace it to its source. Obviously the sufferings of life--disease, old age, death, physical and mental pain--are inevitable consequences of being bom. Then what is the reason for birth? Of course the immediate cause is the physical union of parents, but in a broader perspective, birth occurs because of the endless process of becoming in which the entire universe is involved. Even at the time of death the process does not stop: the body continues decaying, disintegrating, while the consciousness becomes connected with another material structure, and continues flowing, becoming. And why this process of becoming? It was clear to him that the cause is the attachment that one develops. Out of attachment one generates strong reactions, sankhara, which make a deep impression on the mind. At the end of life, one of these will arise in the mind and will give a push to the flow of consciousness to continue. Now what is the cause of this attachment? He found that it arises because of the momentary reactions of liking and disliking. Liking develops into great craving; disliking into great aversion, the mirror image of craving, and both turn into attachment. And why these momentary reactions of liking and disliking? Anyone who observes himself will find that they occur because of bodily sensations. Whenever a pleasant sensation arises, one likes it and wants to retain and multiply it. Whenever an unpleasant sensation arises, one dislikes it and wants to get rid of it. Then why these sensations? Clearly they occur because of the contact between any of the senses and an object of that particular sense: contact of the eye with a vision, of the ear with a sound, of the nose with an odour, of the tongue with a taste, of the body with something tangible, of the mind with a thought or an imagination. As soon as there is a contact, a sensation is bound to arise, pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. And what is the reason for contact? Obviously, the entire universe is full of sense objects. So long as the six senses--the five physical ones, together with the mind--are functioning, they are bound to encounter their respective objects. And why do these sense organs exist? It is clear that they are inseparable parts of the flow of mind and matter; they arise as soon as life begins. And why does the life flow, the flow of mind and matter, occur? Because of the flow of consciousness, from moment to moment, from one life to the next. And why this flow of consciousness? He found that it arises because of the sakhara, the mental reactions. Every reaction gives a push to the flow of consciousness; the flow continues because of the impetus given to it by reactions. And why do reactions occur? He saw that they arise because of ignorance. One does not know what one is doing, does not know how one is reacting, and therefore one keeps generating sakhara. So long as there is ignorance, suffering will remain. The source of the process of suffering, the deepest cause, is ignorance. From ignorance starts the chain of events by which one generates mountains of misery for oneself. If ignorance can be eradicated, suffering will be eradicated. How can one accomplish this? How can one break the chain? The flow of life, of mind and matter, has already begun. Committing suicide will not solve the problem; it will only create fresh misery. Nor can one destroy the senses without destroying oneself. So long as the senses exist, contact is bound to occur with their respective objects, and whenever there is a contact, a sensation is bound to arise within the body. Now here, at the link of sensation, one can break the chain. Previously, every sensation gave rise to a reaction of liking or disliking, which developed into great craving or aversion, great misery. But now, instead of reacting to sensation, you are learning just to observe equanimously, understanding,--"This will also change." In this way sensation gives rise only to wisdom, to the understanding of anicca. One stops the turning of the wheel of suffering and starts rotating it in the opposite direction, towards liberation. Any moment in which one does not generate a new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of the mind, and along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one remains equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in its place. One continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the old sakhara continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of ignorance one reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, multiplies one's misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to sensations, then one after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is eradicated. The entire path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will find that you stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically untied. Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all sankhara leading to new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been eradicated: the stage of total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is not necessary that one should first believe in past lives and future lives. In practising Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present life, one keeps generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and now one must break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you practice, certainly a day will come when you will be able to say that you have eradicated all the old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have freed yourself from all suffering. =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5067 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Howard > > Sarah > > > ================================== > Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly > going through Bhikkhu > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put > forward questions about the > material there to you folks from time to time. (In > fact, I already sent off a > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a > little while ago.) This > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my > pariyatti is concerned. > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number > by concentrating on what > seem to be the more interesting ones. > > With metta, > Howard Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from you and others to which I have not managed to respond. My apologies to all for this. There are, I'm afraid, not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always manage to keep up with reading the posts). Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered posts (by on- or off-list message). Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very interesting reference text, and would like to join in these discussions. Do you have references to your earlier posts handy? Jon 5068 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) Dan Thanks to you, Howard and Erik for this and other posts in a bumper crop today (great birthday reading for Sarah, with hopefully some dhamma discussion this afternoon with Bangkok listies and Khun Sujin). --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear mike, > The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a > poignant summary of > the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. > What a contrast to > the Tipitaka! > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the > modern writers, I > think their differences with the original teachings > lie mostly in the > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, > discouraging, > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by > lottery) is a > striking contrast to the active, rousing, > encouraging, uplifting style > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present > moment? > > Dan Would be interested to see one or two examples of what you mean by the old and the new styles. Any references? Jon 5069 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The corruptions of insight Dan Interesting reading. Are the Ten Corruptions found in the texts? I would be interested to follow up. Thanks. Jon --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > At the early stages of meditation practice, it is > very easy to confuse > the fruits of concentration with the fruits of > insight and to confuse > minor insights with major insights. Although such > confusion is bound > to arise to some degree or another, some of the > sting of the > confusion may be reduced by reviewing the > "corruptions of insight" > from time to time. > > > > The Ten Corruptions of Insight (Ven. Mahasi's > summary) > > When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is > able to keep > exclusively to the present body-and-mind process, > without looking back > to past processes or ahead to future ones, then, > as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a > brilliant light will > appear to him. To one it will appear like the light > of a lamp, to > others like a flash of lightning, or like the > radiance of the > moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for > just one moment, > with others it may last longer. > > There will also arise in him strong mindfulness > pertaining to insight. > As a result, all the successive arisings of bodily > and mental > processes will present themselves to the > consciousness > engaged in noticing, as if coming to it of > themselves; and mindfulness > too seems as if alighting on the processes of > itself. Therefore the > meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind > process in which mindfulness fails to engage." > > His knowledge consisting in insight, here called > "noticing," will be > likewise keen, strong, and lucid. Consequently, he > will discern > clearly and in separate forms all the bodily and > mental > processes noticed, as if cutting to pieces a bamboo > sprout with a > well-sharpened knife. Therefore the meditator then > believes: "There is > no body-and-mind process that cannot be > noticed." When examining the characteristics of > impermanence, etc., or > other aspects of reality, he understands everything > quite clearly and > at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge > derived from direct experience. > > Further, strong faith pertaining to insight arises > in him. Under its > influence, the meditator's mind, when engaged in > noticing or thinking, > is serene and without any disturbance; and when he > is engaged in recollecting the virtues of the > Buddha, the Dhamma, and > the Sangha, his mind quite easily gives itself over > to them. There > arise in him the wish to proclaim the Buddha's > Teaching, joyous confidence in the virtues of those > engaged in > meditation, the desire to advise dear friends and > relatives to > practise meditation, grateful remembrance of the > help received > from his meditation master, his spiritual mentor, > etc. These and many > other similar mental processes will occur. > > There arises also rapture in its five grades, > beginning with minor > rapture. When purification of mind is gained, that > rapture begins to > appear by causing "goose-flesh," tremor in the > limbs, etc.; and now it produces a sublime feeling > of happiness and > exhilaration, filling the whole body with an > exceedingly sweet and > subtle thrill. Under its influence, he feels as if > the > whole body had risen up and remained in the air > without touching the > ground, or as if it were seated on an air cushion, > or as if it were > floating up and down. > > There arises tranquillity of mind with the > characteristic of > quietening the disturbances of consciousness and its > mental > concomitants; and along with it appear mental > agility, etc. When > walking, standing, sitting, or reclining there is, > under the influence > of these mental qualities, no disturbance of > consciousness and its > mental concomitants, nor heaviness, rigidity, > unwieldiness, sickness, or crookedness. Rather, his > consciousness and > its mental concomitants are tranquil through having > reached the > supreme relief in non-action. They are agile > in always functioning swiftly; they are pliant in > being able to attend > to any object desired; they are wieldy, in being > able to attend to an > object for any length of time desired; they are > quite > lucid through their proficiency, that is, through > the ease with which > insight penetrates the object; they are also > straight through being > directed, inclined, and turned only towards > wholesome > activities. > > There also arises a very sublime feeling of > happiness suffusing all > his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly > joyous and he > believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now, > indeed, I have found happiness never felt before," > and he wants to > tell others of his extraordinary experience. With > reference to that > rapture and happiness, which are aided by the > factors > of tranquillity, etc., it was said: > > Superhuman is the bliss of a monk > Who, with mind at peace, > Having entered a secluded place, > Wins insight into Dhamma. > When he fully comprehends > The five groups' rise and fall, > He wins to rapture and to joy -- > The Deathless this, for those who understand. > > > > > Dhammapada vv. 373-374 > > There arises in him energy that is neither too lax > nor too tense but > is vigorous and acts evenly. For formerly his energy > was sometimes > lax, and so he was overpowered by sloth and > torpor; hence he could not notice keenly and > continuously the objects > as they became evident, and his understanding, too, > was not clear. And > at other times his energy was too tense, and > so he was overpowered by agitation, with the same > result of being > unable to notice keenly, etc. But now his energy is > neither too lax > nor too tense, but is vigorous and acts evenly; and > so, > overcoming these shortcomings of sloth, torpor, and > agitation, he is > able to notice the objects present keenly and > continuously, and his > understanding is quite clear, too. > > There also arises in him strong equanimity > associated with insight, > which is neutral towards all formations. Under its > influence he > regards with neutrality even his examination of the > nature > of these formations with respect to their being > impermanent, etc.; and > he is able to notice keenly and continuously the > bodily and mental > processes arising at the time. Then his activity of > noticing is carried on without effort, and proceeds, > as it were, of > itself. Also in adverting to the objects, there > arises in him strong > equanimity, by virtue of which his mind enters, as > it were, > quickly into the objects of advertence. > > There arises further a subtle attachment of a calm > nature that enjoys > the insight graced with the "brilliant light" and > the === message truncated === 5070 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 1, 2001 2:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) - > ================================== > It seems to me that in the material of Erik's > which I quote below, the > intention is metaphorical, so that it is not that > the black deeds themselves > are literally transformed into wisdom and > liberation, but that a powerful mix > of right mindfulness, concentration, and effort > serves to uproot defilements > which are the kammic traces of akusala intentions > and actions (the black > deeds), leading to diamond-like wisdom and > liberation. Incidentally, when > Goenka describes the progress of vipassana > meditation, he describes it as a > process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive > dispositions/inclinations > (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the > uprooting of the very deepest > ones, followed by the attainment of insight and > liberation - not so very > different, I think, except for the use of > metaphorical, poetic language vs > more straightforward language, so that the > "consuming" of akusala kamma by a > purificatory alchemical fire becomes, in more > pedestrian speech, the > uprooting of kammic traces and the destruction of > defilements in the oven of > mindfulness (and other insight factors). What Erik > wrote was: > > > ... tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire > where > > akusala kamma is > > consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna > > into the purest > > and most indestructible substance known to man. > > With metta, > Howard Howard Thanks for these useful comments. Something can sound appealing when expressed in poetic or metaphorical terms, but sometimes one needs to consider it in suttanta or abhidhamma terms in order to properly evaluate it. Certainly, panna of the satipatthana kind when developed will lead to the uprooting of defilements. But the panna arising with samatha can never do more than temproarily subdue kilesa. There is much textual/commentarial support for the latter proposition, i believe. So it is necessary to understand exactly what is supposed to be going on in Erik's model. [Hasty disclaimer here: I have nothing against samatha!! Or any other kind of kusala!] Jon 5071 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 1, 2001 2:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dan wrote: > I don't have any texts with me, but B. Bodhi's use > of "urgency" and > "vigorous" match closely the idea I have of "viriya" > as presented in > Vibhanga. Some actions and cittas are vigorous, some > are not. In those > that are more vigorous, viriya is more prominent. > When viriya is > subtle, as when thina and middha are strong, it > seems to merge with > jivitindriya, or maybe it's that your description of > viriya is closer > to my understanding of jivitindriya. How do you > think about > jivitindriya and how does it differ from viriya? Dan When convenient, it would be interesteing to have the reference. Thanks. Jon 5072 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may > shed some light > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the > original): > > *********************************************************** > Pain exists, misery exists. Crying will not free anyone of > misery. How is one > to come out of it? How is one to live with it? A doctor > treating a sick > person must know what the sickness is, and what the > fundamental cause of the > sickness is. If there is a cause, then there must be a way > out, by removing > the cause. Once the cause is removed, the sickness will > automatically be > removed. Tberefore steps must be taken to eradicate the cause. > First one must > accept the fact of suffering. Everywhere suffering exists; > this is a > universal truth. But it becomes a noble truth when one starts > observing it > without reacting, because anyone who does so is bound to > become a noble, > saintly person. When one starts observing the First Noble > Truth, the truth of > suffering, then very quickly the cause of suffering becomes > clear, and one > starts observing it also; this is the Second Noble Truth. If > the cause is > eradicated, then suffering is eradicated; this is the Third > Noble Truth--the > eradication of suffering. To achieve its eradication one must > take steps; > this is the Fourth Noble Truth--the way to end suffering by > eradicating its > cause. One begins by learning to observe without reacting. > Examine the pain > that you experience objectively, as if it is someone else's > pain. Inspect it > like a scientist who observes an experiment in his laboratory. > When you fail, > try again. Keep trying, and you will find that gradually you > are coming out > of suffering. Every living being suffers. Life starts with > crying; birth is a > great suffering. And anyone who has been born is bound to > encounter the > sufferings of sickness and old age. But no matter how > miserable one's life > may be, nobody wants to die, because death is a great > suffering. Throughout > life, one encounters things that one does not like, and is > separated from > things that one likes. Unwanted things happen, wanted things > do not happen, > and one feels miserable. Simply understanding this reality at > the > intellectual level will not liberate anyone. It can only give > inspiration to > look within oneself, in order to experience truth and to find > the way out of > misery. This is what Siddhattha Gotama did to become a Buddha: > he started > observing reality within the framework of his body like a > research scientist, > moving from gross, apparent truth to subtler truth, to the > subtlest truth. He > found that whenever one develops craving, whether to keep a > pleasant > sensation or to get rid of an unpleasant one, and that craving > is not > fulfilled, then one starts suffering. And going further, at > the subtlest > level, he found that when seen with a fully collected mind, it > is clear that > attachment to the five aggregates is suffering. Intellectually > one may > understand that the material aggregate, the body, is not "I", > not "mine", but > merely an impersonal, changing phenomenon which is beyond > one's control; > actually, however, one identifies with the body, and develops > tremendous > attachment to it. Similarly one develops attachment to the > four mental > aggregates of consciousness, perception, sensation, reaction, > and clings to > them as "I", "mine" despite their constantly changing nature. > For > conventional purposes one must use the words "I" and "mine", > but when one > develops attachment to the five aggregates, one creates > suffering for > oneself. Wherever there is attachment, there is bound to be > misery, and the > greater the attachment, the greater the misery. There are four > types of > attachment that one keeps developing in life. The first is > attachment to > one's desires, to the habit of craving. Whenever craving > arises in the mind, > it is accompanied by a physical sensation. Although at a deep > level a storm > of agitation has begun, at a superficial level one likes the > sensation and > wishes it to continue. This can be compared with scratching a > sore: doing so > will only aggravate it, and yet one enjoys the sensation of > scratching. In > the same way, as soon as a desire is fulfilled, the sensation > that > accompanied the desire is also gone, and so one generates a > fresh desire in > order that the sensation may continue. One becomes addicted to > craving and > multiplies one's misery. Another attachment is the clinging to > "I", "mine", > without knowing what this 'I' really is. One cannot bear any > criticism of > one's "I" or any harm to it. And the attachment spreads to > include whatever > belongs to "I", whatever is "mine". This attachment would not > bring misery if > whatever is "mine" could continue eternally, and the "I" also > could remain to > enjoy it eternally, but the law of nature is that sooner or > later one or the > other must pass away. Attachment to what is impermanent is > bound to bring > misery. Similarly, one develops attachment to one's views and > beliefs, and > cannot bear any criticism of them, or even accept that others > may have > differing views. One does not understand that everyone wears > coloured > glasses, a different colour for each person. By removing the > glasses, one can > see reality as it is, untinted, but instead one remains > attached to the > colour of one's glasses, to one's own preconceptions and > beliefs. Yet another > attachment is the clinging to one's rites, rituals, and > religious practices. > One fails to understand that these are all merely outward > shows, that they do > not contain the essence of truth. If someone is shown the way > to experience > truth directly within himself but continues to cling to empty > external forms, > this attachment produces a tug-of-war in such a person, > resulting in misery. > All the sufferings of life, if examined closely, will be seen > to arise from > one or another of these four attachments. In his search for > truth, this is > what Siddhattha Gotamna found. Yet he continued investigating > within himself > to discover the deepest cause of suffering, to understand how > the entire > phenomenon works, to trace it to its source. Obviously the > sufferings of > life--disease, old age, death, physical and mental pain--are > inevitable > consequences of being bom. Then what is the reason for birth? > Of course the > immediate cause is the physical union of parents, but in a > broader > perspective, birth occurs because of the endless process of > becoming in which > the entire universe is involved. Even at the time of death the > process does > not stop: the body continues decaying, disintegrating, while > the > consciousness becomes connected with another material > structure, and > continues flowing, becoming. And why this process of becoming? > It was clear > to him that the cause is the attachment that one develops. Out > of attachment > one generates strong reactions, sankhara, which make a deep > impression on the > mind. At the end of life, one of these will arise in the mind > and will give a > push to the flow of consciousness to continue. Now what is the > cause of this > attachment? He found that it arises because of the momentary > reactions of > liking and disliking. Liking develops into great craving; > disliking into > great aversion, the mirror image of craving, and both turn > into attachment. > And why these momentary reactions of liking and disliking? > Anyone who > observes himself will find that they occur because of bodily > sensations. > Whenever a pleasant sensation arises, one likes it and wants > to retain and > multiply it. Whenever an unpleasant sensation arises, one > dislikes it and > wants to get rid of it. Then why these sensations? Clearly > they occur because > of the contact between any of the senses and an object of that > particular > sense: contact of the eye with a vision, of the ear with a > sound, of the nose > with an odour, of the tongue with a taste, of the body with > something > tangible, of the mind with a thought or an imagination. As > soon as there is a > contact, a sensation is bound to arise, pleasant, unpleasant, > or neutral. And > what is the reason for contact? Obviously, the entire universe > is full of > sense objects. So long as the six senses--the five physical > ones, together > with the mind--are functioning, they are bound to encounter > their respective > objects. And why do these sense organs exist? It is clear that > they are > inseparable parts of the flow of mind and matter; they arise > as soon as life > begins. And why does the life flow, the flow of mind and > matter, occur? > Because of the flow of consciousness, from moment to moment, > from one life to > the next. And why this flow of consciousness? He found that it > arises because > of the sakhara, the mental reactions. Every reaction gives a > push to the flow > of consciousness; the flow continues because of the impetus > given to it by > reactions. And why do reactions occur? He saw that they arise > because of > ignorance. One does not know what one is doing, does not know > how one is > reacting, and therefore one keeps generating sakhara. So long > as there is > ignorance, suffering will remain. The source of the process of > suffering, the > deepest cause, is ignorance. From ignorance starts the chain > of events by > which one generates mountains of misery for oneself. If > ignorance can be > eradicated, suffering will be eradicated. How can one > accomplish this? How > can one break the chain? The flow of life, of mind and matter, > has already > begun. Committing suicide will not solve the problem; it will > only create > fresh misery. Nor can one destroy the senses without > destroying oneself. So > long as the senses exist, contact is bound to occur with their > respective > objects, and whenever there is a contact, a sensation is bound > to arise > within the body. Now here, at the link of sensation, one can > break the chain. > Previously, every sensation gave rise to a reaction of liking > or disliking, > which developed into great craving or aversion, great misery. > But now, > instead of reacting to sensation, you are learning just to > observe > equanimously, understanding,--"This will also change." In this > way sensation > gives rise only to wisdom, to the understanding of anicca. One > stops the > turning of the wheel of suffering and starts rotating it in > the opposite > direction, towards liberation. Any moment in which one does > not generate a > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of > the mind, and > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one > remains > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in > its place. One > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the > old sakhara > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of > ignorance one > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, > multiplies one's > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to > sensations, then one > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is > eradicated. The entire > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will > find that you > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically > untied. > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all > sankhara leading to > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been > eradicated: the stage of > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is > not necessary > that one should first believe in past lives and future lives. > In practising > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present > life, one keeps > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and > now one must > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you > practice, certainly a > day will come when you will be able to say that you have > eradicated all the > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have > freed yourself > from all suffering. > =============================== > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 5073 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 1, 2001 6:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] --- Howard wrote: Dear Howard, Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist Dhamma. However, this point: Hi, Robert - > > Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may > shed some light > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the > original): > "Any moment in which one does > not generate a > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of > the mind, and > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one > remains > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in > its place. One > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the > old sakhara > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of > ignorance one > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, > multiplies one's > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to > sensations, then one > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is > eradicated. The entire > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will > find that you > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically > untied. > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all > sankhara leading to > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been > eradicated: the stage of > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is > not necessary > that one should first believe in past lives and future lives. > In practising > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present > life, one keeps > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and > now one must > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you > practice, certainly a > day will come when you will be able to say that you have > eradicated all the > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have > freed yourself > from all suffering. " > =============================== I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka. Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to mean kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life. There must be an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. As Dan said, I think this idea is denied somewhere in the commentaries. robert 5074 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:49pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike) > Would be interested to see one or two examples of what > you mean by the old and the new styles. Any > references? Plenty, but it will take me a few days to free up enough time to look them up. Please send me an e-mail reminder because I am going to have to go off-list for awhile. Things should slow down a bit after May 20 or so, so I won't have to abruptly cut off interesting discussions so much. 5075 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 1, 2001 8:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old > "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka. Should be: I think the idea that one could eradicate all old sankhara is not something we would find in the Tipitaka. 5077 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:46pm Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) > > I don't have any texts with me, but B. Bodhi's use > > of "urgency" and > > "vigorous" match closely the idea I have of "viriya" > > as presented in > > Vibhanga. Some actions and cittas are vigorous, some > > are not. In those > > that are more vigorous, viriya is more prominent. > > When viriya is > > subtle, as when thina and middha are strong, it > > seems to merge with > > jivitindriya, or maybe it's that your description of > > viriya is closer > > to my understanding of jivitindriya. How do you > > think about > > jivitindriya and how does it differ from viriya? > > Dan > When convenient, it would be interesteing to have the > reference. Thanks. > Jon I don't have the book with me now, but I am thinking of BB's CMA, chapter 2, guide through the list of cetasikas. Also, Vibhanga's discussion of viriya and "right striving" make for some lively reading. 5078 From: Erik Date: Tue May 1, 2001 9:48pm Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Certainly, panna of the satipatthana kind when > developed will lead to the uprooting of defilements. > But the panna arising with samatha can never do more > than temproarily subdue kilesa. Jonothan, What you said needs to be qualified. Samatha ALONE sans vipassana can't uproot the kilesas. Samatha COMBINED with vipassana (which is the orthodox Tibetan approach) can and does. This is through the union of samatha & vipassana alternating with rupajhana appana. One enters and abides in one of the rupajhanas until very stable and one has very strong and "bright" samatha, and then exits temporarily and applies vipassana to negate with one's understanding of emptiness/anatta whatever one sees arising as "I" or "self" among the khandas, then one returns to jhana, alternating. In this way one the jhanas and samatha & vipassana act as mutual support conditions for one another, and provide the conditions for lokuttara nana through repeated application of the antidotes to "inherent existence." > There is much > textual/commentarial support for the latter > proposition, i believe. So it is necessary to > understand exactly what is supposed to be going on in > Erik's model. [Hasty disclaimer here: I have nothing > against samatha!! Or any other kind of kusala!] 5079 From: Dan Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: The corruptions of insight > Interesting reading. Are the Ten Corruptions found in > the texts? I would be interested to follow up. > Thanks. Visudhimagga in the chapter on vipassana-nyana > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > At the > early stages of meditation practice, it is > > very easy to confuse > > the fruits of concentration with the fruits of > > insight and to confuse > > minor insights with major insights. Although such > > confusion is bound > > to arise to some degree or another, some of the > > sting of the > > confusion may be reduced by reviewing the > > "corruptions of insight" > > from time to time. > > > > > > > > The Ten Corruptions of Insight (Ven. Mahasi's > > summary) > > > > When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is > > able to keep > > exclusively to the present body-and-mind process, > > without looking back > > to past processes or ahead to future ones, then, > > as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a > > brilliant light will > > appear to him. To one it will appear like the light > > of a lamp, to > > others like a flash of lightning, or like the > > radiance of the > > moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for > > just one moment, > > with others it may last longer. > > > > There will also arise in him strong mindfulness > > pertaining to insight. > > As a result, all the successive arisings of bodily > > and mental > > processes will present themselves to the > > consciousness > > engaged in noticing, as if coming to it of > > themselves; and mindfulness > > too seems as if alighting on the processes of > > itself. Therefore the > > meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind > > process in which mindfulness fails to engage." > > > > His knowledge consisting in insight, here called > > "noticing," will be > > likewise keen, strong, and lucid. Consequently, he > > will discern > > clearly and in separate forms all the bodily and > > mental > > processes noticed, as if cutting to pieces a bamboo > > sprout with a > > well-sharpened knife. Therefore the meditator then > > believes: "There is > > no body-and-mind process that cannot be > > noticed." When examining the characteristics of > > impermanence, etc., or > > other aspects of reality, he understands everything > > quite clearly and > > at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge > > derived from direct experience. > > > > Further, strong faith pertaining to insight arises > > in him. Under its > > influence, the meditator's mind, when engaged in > > noticing or thinking, > > is serene and without any disturbance; and when he > > is engaged in recollecting the virtues of the > > Buddha, the Dhamma, and > > the Sangha, his mind quite easily gives itself over > > to them. There > > arise in him the wish to proclaim the Buddha's > > Teaching, joyous confidence in the virtues of those > > engaged in > > meditation, the desire to advise dear friends and > > relatives to > > practise meditation, grateful remembrance of the > > help received > > from his meditation master, his spiritual mentor, > > etc. These and many > > other similar mental processes will occur. > > > > There arises also rapture in its five grades, > > beginning with minor > > rapture. When purification of mind is gained, that > > rapture begins to > > appear by causing "goose-flesh," tremor in the > > limbs, etc.; and now it produces a sublime feeling > > of happiness and > > exhilaration, filling the whole body with an > > exceedingly sweet and > > subtle thrill. Under its influence, he feels as if > > the > > whole body had risen up and remained in the air > > without touching the > > ground, or as if it were seated on an air cushion, > > or as if it were > > floating up and down. > > > > There arises tranquillity of mind with the > > characteristic of > > quietening the disturbances of consciousness and its > > mental > > concomitants; and along with it appear mental > > agility, etc. When > > walking, standing, sitting, or reclining there is, > > under the influence > > of these mental qualities, no disturbance of > > consciousness and its > > mental concomitants, nor heaviness, rigidity, > > unwieldiness, sickness, or crookedness. Rather, his > > consciousness and > > its mental concomitants are tranquil through having > > reached the > > supreme relief in non-action. They are agile > > in always functioning swiftly; they are pliant in > > being able to attend > > to any object desired; they are wieldy, in being > > able to attend to an > > object for any length of time desired; they are > > quite > > lucid through their proficiency, that is, through > > the ease with which > > insight penetrates the object; they are also > > straight through being > > directed, inclined, and turned only towards > > wholesome > > activities. > > > > There also arises a very sublime feeling of > > happiness suffusing all > > his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly > > joyous and he > > believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now, > > indeed, I have found happiness never felt before," > > and he wants to > > tell others of his extraordinary experience. With > > reference to that > > rapture and happiness, which are aided by the > > factors > > of tranquillity, etc., it was said: > > > > Superhuman is the bliss of a monk > > Who, with mind at peace, > > Having entered a secluded place, > > Wins insight into Dhamma. > > When he fully comprehends > > The five groups' rise and fall, > > He wins to rapture and to joy -- > > The Deathless this, for those who understand. > > > > > > > > > > Dhammapada vv. 373-374 > > > > There arises in him energy that is neither too lax > > nor too tense but > > is vigorous and acts evenly. For formerly his energy > > was sometimes > > lax, and so he was overpowered by sloth and > > torpor; hence he could not notice keenly and > > continuously the objects > > as they became evident, and his understanding, too, > > was not clear. And > > at other times his energy was too tense, and > > so he was overpowered by agitation, with the same > > result of being > > unable to notice keenly, etc. But now his energy is > > neither too lax > > nor too tense, but is vigorous and acts evenly; and > > so, > > overcoming these shortcomings of sloth, torpor, and > > agitation, he is > > able to notice the objects present keenly and > > continuously, and his > > understanding is quite clear, too. > > > > There also arises in him strong equanimity > > associated with insight, > > which is neutral towards all formations. Under its > > influence he > > regards with neutrality even his examination of the > > nature > > of these formations with respect to their being > > impermanent, etc.; and > > he is able to notice keenly and continuously the > > bodily and mental > > processes arising at the time. Then his activity of > > noticing is carried on without effort, and proceeds, > > as it were, of > > itself. Also in adverting to the objects, there > > arises in him strong > > equanimity, by virtue of which his mind enters, as > > it were, > > quickly into the objects of advertence. > > > > There arises further a subtle attachment of a calm > > nature that enjoys > > the insight graced with the "brilliant light" and > > the > === message truncated === 5080 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/1/01 1:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard > > > > Sarah > > > > > ================================== > > Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly > > going through Bhikkhu > > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put > > forward questions about the > > material there to you folks from time to time. (In > > fact, I already sent off a > > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a > > little while ago.) This > > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my > > pariyatti is concerned. > > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number > > by concentrating on what > > seem to be the more interesting ones. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from > you and others to which I have not managed to respond. > My apologies to all for this. There are, I'm afraid, > not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up > with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always > manage to keep up with reading the posts). > > Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered > posts (by on- or off-list message). > > Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very > interesting reference text, and would like to join in > these discussions. > > Do you have references to your earlier posts handy? > > Jon > ================================ Thanks very much. Actually you have nothing at all to apologize for. I was in error. The post that I told Sarah was directed to you was actually directed to sarah, herself. However, I would welcome a reply to it from any of you knowledgeable folks. I was merely referring to the post I just wrote yesterday presenting two questions: (1) What the difference is between jivitindriya and viriya, and (2) whether or not a vi~n~nana/citta is nothing more than the package of "accompanying" cetasikas, universal and occasional. I particularly ask this because it doesn't seem that there is much of a difference between vi~n~nana (discernment/consciousness) and phassa (contact). It is certainly stated, explicitly in the Abhidhamma and implicitly in the suttas, that vi~n~nana is distinct from all the cetasikas, including phassa; I simply would like to get a clear understanding of exactly what that difference amounts to. I understand vi~n~nana to consist of the bare apprehension of an object, nothing more. How, exactly, is phassa different? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5081 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 9:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/1/01 1:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard > > > > Sarah > > > > > ================================== > > Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly > > going through Bhikkhu > > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put > > forward questions about the > > material there to you folks from time to time. (In > > fact, I already sent off a > > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a > > little while ago.) This > > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my > > pariyatti is concerned. > > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number > > by concentrating on what > > seem to be the more interesting ones. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from > you and others to which I have not managed to respond. > My apologies to all for this. There are, I'm afraid, > not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up > with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always > manage to keep up with reading the posts). > > Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered > posts (by on- or off-list message). > > Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very > interesting reference text, and would like to join in > these discussions. > > Do you have references to your earlier posts handy? > > Jon > ===================================== Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking about it a bit, myself. Here area few thoughts I have: Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed along from mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of lifetimes. These occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of which are the fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I suppose that what Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial kamma, by the production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to feelings, will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable the release of kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), eventually enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during a moment of path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* kammic traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released for awakening to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it does not quite seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of insight" such as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't contradict it; it is just different. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5082 From: Howard Date: Tue May 1, 2001 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] unsubscribe Hi, Des - If you are trying to unsubscribe, I believe that what you need to do is send any message (even empty) with any title (even empty) to the address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=224071066182093233025061186085130141132058196034197079250238105121092186228020180222126088029225086019038017241139121246244045240043 With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5083 From: Num Date: Wed May 2, 2001 1:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viri... Hi Howard, I am too, trying to understand the subtle different meaning between each cetasika. At time when I read from one book, it seems to be clear and straight forward to grasp but when I think about some mental phenomena or try to put citta and cetasika together, I feel like I miss the big picture. Awareness and thinking about Dhamma is different, but careful listening and studying, I believe, can condition right understanding. I will try to share with you what I understand so far. I like your question, it's kind of helping me thinking in different angles. > With regard to viriya, what do you understand to be the difference > between it and jivitindriya (sp?), the latter of which I think of as an > "enlivening" or "life-giving" or "energizing" faculty? (I'm trying to get a > from dhammastudy.com <<>> My understanding is Jivitindriya-cetasika supports, nourishes and maintains life of citta and cetasika which coarise with at that moment. Jivitindriya-cetasika coarises with every citta, and supports both citta and all cetasikas which coarise at that moment. It's one of the seven universal cetasika. There is also, rupa-jivitindriya. << (quote from dhammastudy.com) -- Rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, must be accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa. Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the other rupa accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa. >> So jivitindriya has two kinds, nama-jivitindriya which is cetasika, and rupa-jivitindriya. While viriya, (energy, effort, viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that relentlessly perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma). Viriya cetasika coarises with every lobha-mula-citta. Thina and middha cetasika arise mainly in lobha-mula-citta. So viriya still do it's job in lobha-mula-citta. I think, when we are drowsy, there are some level of lobha there, which need to have viriya in attaching to something. Viriya is one of predominant factors, adhipati-paccaya. It's a predominant factor in accomplishment a task, both good and bad. So to me jivitindriya-cetasika kind of support and maintain. Viriya is an effort or energy direct into something. Well, that my version of my understanding. I am not sure that it makes anything clearer. Num 5087 From: Howard Date: Wed May 2, 2001 9:16am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, all - I'm reading the following msg of mine from the web site, because,for some reason, certain posts aren't getting to me. This particular post of mine (below)is all mixed up. My reply at the end should NOT be directed toJon, but to robert, and it should be in reply to a different post (of robert's not Jon's). I suggest you all simply pay no attention to this post (below). With metta, Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 5/1/01 1:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Howard > > > > > > Sarah > > > > > > > ================================== > > > Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly > > > going through Bhikkhu > > > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put > > > forward questions about the > > > material there to you folks from time to time. (In > > > fact, I already sent off a > > > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a > > > little while ago.) This > > > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my > > > pariyatti is concerned. > > > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number > > > by concentrating on what > > > seem to be the more interesting ones. > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from > > you and others to which I have not managed to respond. > > My apologies to all for this. There are, I'm afraid, > > not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up > > with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always > > manage to keep up with reading the posts). > > > > Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered > > posts (by on- or off-list message). > > > > Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very > > interesting reference text, and would like to join in > > these discussions. > > > > Do you have references to your earlier posts handy? > > > > Jon > > > ===================================== > Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking about it > a bit, myself. Here area few thoughts I have: > Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed along from > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of lifetimes. These > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of which are the > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I suppose that what > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial kamma, by the > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to feelings, > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable the release of > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), eventually > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during a moment of > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* kammic > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released for awakening > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it does not quite > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of insight" such > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't contradict it; > it is just different. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 5088 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 2, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Dear Howard, It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of paticasamupada. This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha. We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring them that this gradually erases kamma from the past. The whole idea is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka. I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had to do this first? robert Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking about it a bit, myself. Here area few thoughts I have: Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed along from mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of lifetimes. These occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of which are the fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I suppose that what Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial kamma, by the production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to feelings, will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable the release of kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), eventually enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during a moment of path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* kammic traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released for awakening to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it does not quite seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of insight" such as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't contradict it; it is just different. With metta, Howard In a message dated 5/1/01 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > --- Howard wrote: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist > Dhamma. However, this point: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may > > shed some light > > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the > > original): > > > "Any moment in which one does > > not generate a > > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of > > the mind, and > > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one > > remains > > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in > > its place. One > > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the > > old sakhara > > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of > > ignorance one > > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, > > multiplies one's > > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to > > sensations, then one > > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is > > eradicated. The entire > > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will > > find that you > > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically > > untied. > > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all > > sankhara leading to > > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been > > eradicated: the stage of > > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is > > not necessary > > that one should first believe in past lives and future lives. > > In practising > > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present > > life, one keeps > > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and > > now one must > > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you > > practice, certainly a > > day will come when you will be able to say that you have > > eradicated all the > > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have > > freed yourself > > from all suffering. " > > =============================== > > > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old > "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka. > Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to mean > kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred > thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life. > There must be an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many > "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. > As Dan said, I think this idea is denied somewhere in the > commentaries. > robert > ================================ Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking about it a bit, myself. Here area few thoughts I have: Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed along from mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of lifetimes. These occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of which are the fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I suppose that what Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial kamma, by the production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to feelings, will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable the release of kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), eventually enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during a moment of path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* kammic traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released for awakening to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it does not quite seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of insight" such as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't contradict it; it is just different. With metta, Howard 5089 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:01pm Subject: Beginning Nina wrote to me as I mentioned some people feel discouraged: "Each level of kusala is valuable, we should not despise kusala such as anumodana dana, or helping, even without pa~n~naa. And without the Buddha we would not know about these kusala, we should be grateful and happy. WE should not forget that there are three levels of knowing the Truths: sacca~naa.na, kicca-~naa.na and kata ~naa.na. This is in the commentary to Kindred Sayings V, Book XII, Ch II, setting rolling the wheel of Dhamma. Khun Sujin said about the first one:<< this is the firm foundation of the understanding of the noble Truths, before there can be any development of them. Understanding that dukkha is this moment, do not move away from it. Pariyatti is not just reading, it is also understanding of what one has read.>> We have to develop the perfection of sacca, truthfulness, sincerity, and that means, not only knowing our akusala but also knowing our kusala. There are many moments of self, but there are also kusala cittas. There is not wrong view every moment.The fact that one is disheartened is also a conditioned nama, it will not stay. Listening thirty years is short, we all know. But we have confidence, we are beginning on the Path. Sarah said, we are in nursery school, and I like that very much. We should be grateful to be beginners. There must be a beginning and once it will lead to the goal, we do not know when. We have to accept that there are ups and downs along the Path. In the Commentary to the Salekkhasutta, Middle Length Sayings, the Papa~ncasuudanii, we are reminded of the importance of taking the three refuges, that is, having confidence in the Path. It is explained that gifts given to those who have taken the three refuges are much more fruitful than those given to people outside Buddhism. And there is a quotation from the M. III, no. 142, where it is said that a gift given to someone faring along for the realisation of the fruit of stream attainment yields what is incalculable and immeasurable. Even someone with the three refuges is counted as faring for realising the fruit of sotaapatti. We are a beginner on the way, we have to listen, and we should not think that that is enough already. Then one can become bahussutaa, one who has heard much. The same Commentary states that this is explained as: having understood the word of the Buddha, even one stanza, and there is the proper practice (anuruupapa.tipada.m)." 5090 From: Amara Date: Wed May 2, 2001 10:56am Subject: Yellow card Dear all, It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, and the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the following message: >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott >Subject: Yellow card >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > >Amara, > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content >for this list. > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your >posts without further notice. > >Jon & Sarah Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them the trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as it is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it can be for all concerned. Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions we have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of you. And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you will all be of great benefit to many others in the future. Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book is finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me your address, I will be very happy to send it to you. And those who are interested of course, if any. May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in teaching it, Amara 5091 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Erik > > The concept of 'black deeds [being] > > transformed by panna into the purest and most > > indestructible substance known to man' would seem > to > > contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. > > Would SEEM to, that is the key. Seem to. There is no > "transformation" > of akusala sankharas into kusala sankharas, if > that's what you mean. > It is a transmuation of all the base characteristics > of the > personality, via panna, into strenghts. Hatred is > transmuted into > compassion, for example, through the process or > "reversals," a > powerful way of dealing with akusala, given it > effects transformation > not only at the level of restraining bad behavior, > but by helping one > rewire one's categories to see the world in a > different way due to an > _epistemological_ reorganization of reality. Apologies if I misunderstood your earlier message. This is all new and radical stuff to me. It seems to me you are saying here one of 2 things. Either you are saying that accumulated kilesa (anusaya) are 'transmuted' into kusala so that, for exammple, one's accumulated dosa becomes accumulated compassion. Or you are saying that kilesa are transmuted as and when they arise and manifest so that, for example, dosa arising is 'caught' and transmuted into compassion. In either case my question would be, what is the cetasika that performs this miraculous transmutation, and at what stage of the sense- or mind-door process does it arise? > For example, there is the practice of "pure vision" > where one > visualizes all beings as already perfected Buddhas. > This plays into > the teaching found in "Mind Training in Eight > Verses" where "when > someone whom I have helped and in whome I have > placed great hope > harms me with great injustice, may I see that one as > a sacred friend, > for they are rarely met." > > This takes a typical human problem--people treating > us badly--and > provides a new lens to view the "problem" through. > In this case the > tormenter is acting in the capacity of "sacred > friend," providing > opportunity to practice forbearance and restrain > anger. In this way > this being of "bad disposition" is actually a > greater friend than any > other, because this friend is providing the > opportunity to overcome > mental afflictions. Through their kindness we can > terminate the > causes to see this happen again through mindfulness > at the moment > we'd normally respond with anger. If you can 'deal with' dosa in this manner (which i of course would not agree with), what's wrong with a dose of good old-fashioned metta or uppekkha? > I have used this whenever the opportunity arises > (and I'm mindful > enough to recall it at that moment) because it works > so well. Indeed > it's the only thing that's kept me sane given some > of the vipaka > that's been ripening on me the past few years. > Without this my > presence as a Dhamma practitioner in the first place > would be in > question. It has literally saved my life. This also > really shows in > the behavior of those who practice it. It is the > most powerful > antidote to vyapada and patigha I have ever tried, > and for someone > with a very big accumulation of these two, I should > know whereof I > speak. With all respect, Erik, I would not be prepared to accept someone's word for it. It must be supportable in terms of the pitakas and commentaries, otherwise it is not dhamma. Or do you not agree with this proposition? > Extrapolate this practice now, to everyone. To see > everyone as > a "sacred friend." How will that change how you > interact with people > if you suspect they are all holy beings here as your > sacred friend, > here to ripen you? That is, very generrally, the > process of > transformating "bad" into "good." It sounds like any other form of suppression to me! > > Likewise, the concept of a source or kind of > kusala > > outside those enumerated in the suttas would also > be > > contradictory. > > Contradictory to what, specifically? The only > "contradiction" that > matters is if it contradicts that which leads to > abandoning akusala, > cultivating kusala, and developing the mind with the > panna that > realizes the lokuttara nana the permanently abandons > the samyojanas. > Can you point to a case where the practices I > outlined do NOT fall > into these three categories, and why, specifically, > they can't? I would need ask how whaat you have said above has anything to do with the panna that eradicates kilesa. This is why it is important to clarify what is meant by the term vipassana. Simply to assert that it 'perfectly matches' does not take us any further forward. That, after all, is what is the subject of this whole debate (your choice of topic). To make discussion simpler, may I suggest that vipassana refers to a moment of citta accompanied by panna that understands the true nature of the object of the citta at that moment. Do you have any comments on this as a basis for further discussion? > > To particlarise, if tantric bliss is > > kusala, what kind of kusala citta is it and what > is > > its object? > > I have no idea. My best guess at the moment is it > _could_ be a > jhanacitta with the factor of piti energized by > viriya to an > extraordinarily high degree. Someone raised this > question with me in > a private email and it's a very intersting idea, one > I hadn't > considered before. > > I think you raise a very interesting (and important) > question, one I > am now inclined to research: how do the Tibetans > categorize the > cittas arising in this process? I have not seen any > documentation on > this, but given the thoroughness of the Tibetan > scholars I can't > imagine no one else has addressed this in the past > thousand years. > I'll research this point and get back to you, > because now I really > want to know as well. I look forward to the ersults of your research. > > Yes, I'm sure it will. Funny thing about our > debates > > though, Erik. They usually die at an early stage, > > with me waiting for an answer from you. The > latest > > example of this was my recent request for your > > explanation of the term 'vipassana' as used in the > > context of a statement you made. > > The definition for vipassana in Tibetan perfectly > matches that in the > Tipitaka. No point in further defining that on which > we agree. That > includes all the levels of vipassana-nana enumerated > in the > Abhidhamma. > > > I seem to recall > > other examples (eg. the meaning of the Eightfold > Path > > as found in the Mahayana texts). > > Taught identically in Tibetan Buddhism. Jon, if in > doubt always > remember this: the Tibetans accept the Tipitaka as > the word of the > Buddha AS IS. Eightfold path is a whole topic on its own. I may reply seeparately on this. Jon 5093 From: Howard Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:10pm Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viri... > This is a resend. I sent the first one about 2 hrs ago. If you get a > duplicate, pls pardon me. ============================== I'm reading this from the web site. I wonder whether Yahoo groups is having trouble sending out the messages!! With metta, Howard 5094 From: Herman Date: Wed May 2, 2001 6:34pm Subject: Re: Yellow card Dear Amara, This is not my first reply. But the previous one hasn't arrived yet. In it I asked you to reconsider your decision. I further stated that I didn't think Erik or Marlon would benefit from your departure. Then I said something along the lines of: Regardless of whether you are on the list or not, we all remain in a position where we are verifying the Dhamma, escape isn't possible :-) I appreciate your kindnesses, Amara. Neither this nor that nor not-this nor not-that can be a threat to parramattha dhamma. That is real, the rest is pretty well imagined. With lovingkindness Herman --- "Amara" wrote: > > Dear all, > > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, and > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the > following message: > > > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > >Subject: Yellow card > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > > > >Amara, > > > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content > >for this list. > > > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your > >posts without further notice. > > > >Jon & Sarah > > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them the > trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as it > is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it can > be for all concerned. > > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions we > have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of > you. And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you will > all be of great benefit to many others in the future. > > Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book is > finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me your > address, I will be very happy to send it to you. And those who are > interested of course, if any. > > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in > teaching it, > > Amara 5096 From: Howard Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:17pm Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Hi, Robert - --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Howard, > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of > paticasamupada. > > This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha. > We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice > for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea > that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring > them that this gradually erases kamma from the past. > The whole idea is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka. > I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but > managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with > his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had > to do this first? > robert ==================================== Yes, I agree with you. It is by means of following the entire 8- fold path that eventually the enlightenment factors develop, led by mindfulness, with eventually the direct insight into the tilakhana leading to dispassion, disenchantment, and finally to the experience of nibbana. I agree that Goenka's analysis is questionable, though his method is quite effective. With metta, Howard 5097 From: Howard Date: Wed May 2, 2001 6:27pm Subject: Testing for My Messages Hi, all - Sorry to bother anyone.I haven't been getting my own messages echoed back to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5099 From: Erik Date: Wed May 2, 2001 7:46pm Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Either you are saying that accumulated kilesa > (anusaya) are 'transmuted' into kusala so that, for > exammple, one's accumulated dosa becomes accumulated > compassion. Or you are saying that kilesa are > transmuted as and when they arise and manifest so > that, for example, dosa arising is 'caught' and > transmuted into compassion. > > In either case my question would be, what is the > cetasika that performs this miraculous transmutation, > and at what stage of the sense- or mind-door process > does it arise? I am not suggesting this, have never suggested this, and I thought this had been clarified twice already, both by myself, and Howard, as a poetic description. Jon, I know you feel the need to verify that something matches the nitty gritty of the Abhidhamma, and I am also very keen on this for my own knowledge--especially since the claim of the Tibetans is that has a basis in the Suttas someplace (and I want to test that out, and have so far been pleasantly surprised--"generation stage" of tantra as "Recollection of the Deities" for example, emptiness, vipassana, etc. etc.). I'd also like to offer a suggestion to help communication. That it may be very helpful to allow for the open and poetic expression of the Dhamma without taking something metaphorical and attempting to render it into concise technical terms. Trying to analyze a metaphor literally is like trying to analyze a joke. Something is always lost in the translation. To take an extreme example, I have no problem with metaphorical versions of emptiness that use "space" as an analogy, simply because I know that certain individuals need to have things presented that way lest a misunderstanding of emptiness produce terror or some other worse miccha-ditthi in them at that point in their developmnent. > > For example, there is the practice of "pure vision" > > where one > > visualizes all beings as already perfected Buddhas. > If you can 'deal with' dosa in this manner (which i of > course would not agree with), what's wrong with a dose > of good old-fashioned metta or uppekkha? Jon, when you're placed in a situation that conditions a habitual akusala reaction (returning anger with anger, for example), and you restrain it at that moment you typically respond in anger, what is the result? More akusala or more kusala? If furthermore you've halted a habitual reaction, then that reaction will have fewer causes to arise again. If we respond with love to anger repeatedly, for example, what is the result? A net increase in kusala or a net increase in akusala? Which is preferable when one is challenged by a situation that engenders anger? To apply this antidote or simply unconsciously react? That is the stark choice we have. As for how "pure vision" (or metta-bhavana for that matter) eradicates kilesas. I have never ever heard a Theravadin or Tibetan suggest that this type of practice can eradicate kilesas. I thought I was unambiguous on the approach of samatha & vipassana & jhanas I've been taught and practice as the central practice for insight. There should be no room for ambiguity. > With all respect, Erik, I would not be prepared to > accept someone's word for it. It must be supportable > in terms of the pitakas and commentaries, otherwise it > is not dhamma. Or do you not agree with this > proposition? I accept no one's word on anything, and test everything out for myself. I am ruthless about this. That means tantra, that means the teachings of the Tipitaka. I have also seen that they harmonize (in often suprising ways) on the things that matter most. To me, the Dhamma is that which brings one most effectively to supramundane wisdom. To me this is the final word on a teaching. If it does not do this, it is the Buddha's Dhamma only inasmuch as it helps one abandon akusala, take up kusala, and purify the mind (I include the Tipitaka here). > To make discussion simpler, may I suggest that > vipassana refers to a moment of citta accompanied by > panna that understands the true nature of the object > of the citta at that moment. Do you have any comments > on this as a basis for further discussion? That is certainly one valid way of describing it. In the same way one can describe the feeling of being "in love" as a systemic change brought about by increases in phenylethylamine, dopamine, and a number of other neurotransmitters and hormones, accompanied by restlessness and excitement and irrational ideation. Or, if one were a Bard one could put it like this: "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate: Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, And summer's lease hath all too short a date; "Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, And often is his gold complexion dimm'd; And every fair from fair sometime declines, By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimm'd. "But thy eternal summer shall not fade, Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest; Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade, When in eternal lines to time thou growest:— "So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this gives life to thee." In the end how the Dhamma is rendered is a matter of what is beneficial for the listener, as has always been true. In the end it is saying the same thing in a different language (and just how different has become very clear to me since joining dsg). 5100 From: Num Date: Wed May 2, 2001 8:25pm Subject: Re: Yellow card <<<>>>> Hi K. Amara, I feel like I need to respond to your mail this time. “Yellow card”, in football it means “a card that the referee holds in the air to indicate that a player has been cautioned.”, so I hope when said yellow card, you mean yellow card, not a red card, which means “a card, colored red, that the referee holds in the air to indicate that a player has been ejected.” And I think it’s improper for a player to give him/herself a card, both yellow or red :) ……………………………………………………………………………………………… >>>>>>>>> >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott >Subject: Yellow card >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > >Amara, > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content >for this list. > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your >posts without further notice. > >Jon & Sarah Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to savethem the trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busyenough as it is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficialas it can be for all concerned. >>>>>>>>> May I disagree with you on this point? I think I read almost all the messages in dsg. And I did not feel like you did anything frankly inappropriate or off the topic. Everybody has his/her own style of communication, approach, debate and standard. Some are pretty tangential, some are provocative, some are quite diplomatic, and some are quite straightforward. But as a human being, none of us can be infallible. I think you are pretty straightforward. Well, I do believe in free speech, as long as it's not obscene or indecency. I do respect your and moderator's thought and opinion, which does not mean I agree with all of you guys said. I always feel that you mean well and want to help and share with the group. To me cetana is the most important. I can be pretty stupid in doing something, and at time bad thing happens because of my stupidity. No matter what other people said, I know in my heart what did I do or what am I doing. ……………………………………………………………………………………………… <<<>>> I hope you did not mean to say good-bye. Well, I think I am pretty straightforward and pathologically honest, I think you have been very helpful to dsg and esp.to me. I have learned a lot. You work hard. You always try to come back with answer, no matter how difficult or complicated it is. You spend a lot of time and energy in studying dhamma, which I can only admire and somewhat envy. ……………………………………………………………………………………………… <<<>>>> I hope to see you back and share with us your wisdom and kindness. No matter what you decide, I always respect your input, thought and opinion. I do not mean to encourage or try to psycho in this mail. I just want to speak of the truth and nothing else only but the truth. Num 5101 From: Howard Date: Wed May 2, 2001 11:13pm Subject: Re: Yellow card Hi, Herman (and Amara) - I concur with your post below. Amara, please don't be precipitous, but remain on the list. (BTW, with regard to your not having seen your first post yet, I've been seeing NONE of mine and very few of anyone else's.I'm replying to your post from the web site. Something seems to be wrong with Yahoo groups, at least at my end.) Amara, please stick around! With metta, Howard --- Herman wrote: > Dear Amara, > > This is not my first reply. But the previous one hasn't arrived yet. > > In it I asked you to reconsider your decision. I further stated that > I didn't think Erik or Marlon would benefit from your departure. > > Then I said something along the lines of: Regardless of whether you > are on the list or not, we all remain in a position where we are > verifying the Dhamma, escape isn't possible :-) > > I appreciate your kindnesses, Amara. > > Neither this nor that nor not-this nor not-that can be a threat to > parramattha dhamma. That is real, the rest is pretty well imagined. > > With lovingkindness > > > Herman > > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, > and > > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the > > following message: > > > > > > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > > >Subject: Yellow card > > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > > > > > >Amara, > > > > > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon > > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content > > >for this list. > > > > > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any > > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your > > >posts without further notice. > > > > > >Jon & Sarah > > > > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them > the > > trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as > it > > is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it > can > > be for all concerned. > > > > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions > we > > have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of > > you. And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you > will > > all be of great benefit to many others in the future. > > > > Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book > is > > finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me > your > > address, I will be very happy to send it to you. And those who are > > interested of course, if any. > > > > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in > > teaching it, > > > > Amara 5102 From: Erik Date: Wed May 2, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: Yellow card --- "Amara" wrote: > > Dear all, > > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, and > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the > following message: > > > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > >Subject: Yellow card > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > > > >Amara, > > > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content > >for this list. > > > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your > >posts without further notice. > > > >Jon & Sarah > > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them the > trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as it > is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it can > be for all concerned. Amara, this is nonsense. You are a precious treasure. I have learned more from your posts on the subleties of the Abhidhamma than from nearly anyone else. I think if you leave you will be depriving many of your insights. So I sincerely request you to remain here for the benefit of all of us. I also do not take our little tiffs personally, and am a lot less bothered about it that our list moderators. My suspicious is that you have fundamental disagreements with the Tibetan Dharma, and this is a cause of difficulty communicating. This is only a GUESS mind you. I could well be wrong, and I only mention it because it is a prevalent view I've encountered among Theravadins, that the Mahayana/Tibetan Dharma is a corruption somehow. 5103 From: Alex Date: Wed May 2, 2001 9:09pm Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Howard, > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of > paticasamupada. ... snip excellent writing ... > > With metta, > Howard > Dear Robert and Howard, I must say that I had to smile here. You signed your post as Howard. ... It's cute! Howard, I hope you don't mind that someone else changes his name. Alex 5104 From: Alex Date: Wed May 2, 2001 9:13pm Subject: Re: Yellow card Dear Amara, Amara, please don't go away ... Anumodana to your effort, Alex 5105 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu May 3, 2001 4:51am Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Dear Howard, May I ask how it is effective for you? As a tool to verify? As a tool to progress in knowledge? Other comments? kom --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of > > paticasamupada. > > > > This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha. > > We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice > > for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea > > that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring > > them that this gradually erases kamma from the past. > > The whole idea is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka. > > I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but > > managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with > > his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had > > to do this first? > > robert > ==================================== > Yes, I agree with you. It is by means of following the entire 8- > fold path that eventually the enlightenment factors develop, led by > mindfulness, with eventually the direct insight into the tilakhana > leading to dispassion, disenchantment, and finally to the experience > of nibbana. I agree that Goenka's analysis is questionable, though > his method is quite effective. > > With metta, > Howard 5106 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Thu May 3, 2001 5:27am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Yellow card Dear Amara, It would be for the benefit of all DSG users(including yourself)if you remain in the group. Regards. Gayan 5107 From: Num Date: Wed May 2, 2001 11:00pm Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages Hi Howard and all, Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me. The mail that I sent out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me. And I get sporadic fwd mails from the yahoogroup. I don't know where is the proble, my aol or yahoo, or both. It took for 4 hours for my message to show up at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me. Strange. Num 5108 From: Antony Date: Thu May 3, 2001 8:54am Subject: Re: Yellow card My Dear Amara My life is so short and I have so much to learn. Your posts have been an encyclopedia of learning for me. Your answers to my questions have always been thoughtful, detailed and clear. agreement or disagreement is not an issue for me, but learning I am interested in. I am not a fool to think that I don't need more learning and practice. I am sure it is the Buddha who has said that a fool is one who, when admonished or instructed, does not reflect on this information and learn from it. I hope I am not that fool and I have read all your detailed informative posts as if they were meant for my instruction. I would be happy to be able to continue to reflect on issues atht are discussed here with your assistance. Our friends the moderators are only doing there job as good moderators should. we cannot hope that they should treat us any differently than someone else. When there has been untoward interaction using the List all parties need reminded of the instruction of moderation. I would expect that you are not the only one to have received the infamous 'yellow card' on this occasion. As you can see there are many on this list who would hope that you do not quit the discussions. But that is a decision you must make. I truly hope that you make the right decision and one that you are satisfied with. (as much as anyone can be.) I felt I had to add my 'bit' to the call for your backflip. And I would think that there will be a cyber-cheer go out when you announce it. I would also like to add for the benefit of all reading this that I support the Moderators in the job that they have set themselves to do. It is not so easy as one might think, and what is currently occuring is an example of that. antony sydney australia 5109 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 3, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Dear Alex, Thanks but have a look again. This is my full text. Howards comes after: Dear Howard, It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of paticasamupada. This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha. We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring them that this gradually erases kamma from the past. The whole idea is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka. I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had to do this first? robert --- Alex wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel > of > > paticasamupada. > ... snip excellent writing ... > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > Dear Robert and Howard, > > I must say that I had to smile here. You signed your post > as > Howard. ... It's cute! Howard, I hope you don't mind that > someone > else changes his name. > > Alex > 5110 From: Howard Date: Thu May 3, 2001 9:59am Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages Hi, Num - --- Num wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me. The mail that I sent > out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me. And I get sporadic > fwd mails from the yahoogroup. I don't know where is the proble, my > aol or yahoo, or both. It took for 4 hours for my message to show up > at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me. Strange. > > > Num ================================= Thank you for this confirmation. I feel better - maybe because "misery loves company"? ;-)) I doubt that the problem is with aol - I do get non-yahoo posts,even from other lists. With metta, Howard 5111 From: Moderators Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:21am Subject: Delays in posts Dear All Just to confirm that any delays you may be experiencing in messages getting to the list or back to you is to do with the system (no, your moderators have not gone trigger-happy!). As to whether the problem lies with Yahoo or elsewhere, I am inclined to think the former, but I have not been able to verify this. On the subject of glitches, our eScribe archive site stopped receiving messages for most of April, so there is no eScribe archive for that period. I expect the present problems will get sorted out soon, so I suggest we all just continue to post in the normal manner in the meantime. Jon & Sarah 5112 From: robert Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:29am Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages same problems with me. It seems to be the same on d-l list too. I hope this is just a temporary problem. robert--- Num wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me. The mail that I sent > out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me. And I get sporadic > fwd mails from the yahoogroup. I don't know where is the proble, my > aol or yahoo, or both. It took for 4 hours for my message to show up > at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me. Strange. > > > Num 5113 From: Howard Date: Thu May 3, 2001 0:45pm Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages Hi, Robert - --- Robert wrote: > same problems with me. It seems to be the same on d-l list too. I > hope this is just a temporary problem. > robert--- > > > Num wrote: > > Hi Howard and all, > > > > Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me. The mail that I sent > > out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me. And I get sporadic > > fwd mails from the yahoogroup. I don't know where is the proble, > my > > aol or yahoo, or both. It took for 4 hours for my message to show > up > > at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me. Strange. > > > > > > Num ==================================== Robert, since your e-mail address is not an aol one, that would suggest that the problem lies with Yahoo. I also hope they straighten it out soon. I'm on several of the Yahoo lists,and I'm having the same problem with all of them,though not with the one or two non- Yahoo lists I'm on. With metta, Howard 5114 From: robert Date: Thu May 3, 2001 1:08pm Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Dear Robert and Howard, I must say that I had to smile here. You signed your post as Howard. ... It's cute! Howard, I hope you don't mind that someone else changes his name. Alex ____________________________ Dear Alex: here is the complete message, this time with the sections by Howard and by me properly distinguished. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: >ROBERT: Dear Howard, > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of > paticasamupada. > > This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha. > We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice > for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea > that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring > them that this gradually erases kamma from the past. > The whole idea is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka. > I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but > managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with > his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had > to do this first? > robert >____________________________________________________________________ > > > >HOWARD: Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking > about it a > bit, > myself. Here area few thoughts I have: > Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed > along > from > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of > lifetimes. > These > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of > which are > the > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I > suppose that > what > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial > kamma, > by the > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to > feelings, > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable > the > release of > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), > eventually > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during > a > moment of > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* > kammic > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released > for > awakening > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it > does not > quite > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of > insight" > such > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't > contradict it; > it is just different. > > With metta, > Howard > > > In a message dated 5/1/01 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Robert writes: > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > > > Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist > > Dhamma. However, this point: > > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may > > > shed some light > > > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the > > > original): > > > > > "Any moment in which one does > > > not generate a > > > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface > of > > > the mind, and > > > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one > > > remains > > > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises > in > > > its place. One > > > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and > the > > > old sakhara > > > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out > of > > > ignorance one > > > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, > > > multiplies one's > > > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to > > > sensations, then one > > > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is > > > eradicated. The entire > > > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will > > > find that you > > > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are > automatically > > > untied. > > > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all > > > sankhara leading to > > > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been > > > eradicated: the stage of > > > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it > is > > > not necessary > > > that one should first believe in past lives and future > lives. > > > In practising > > > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the > present > > > life, one keeps > > > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here > and > > > now one must > > > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you > > > practice, certainly a > > > day will come when you will be able to say that you have > > > eradicated all the > > > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so > have > > > freed yourself > > > from all suffering. " > > > =============================== > > > > > > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old > > "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka. > > Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to > mean > > kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred > > thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life. > > There must be an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many > > "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. > > As Dan said, I think this idea is denied somewhere in the > > commentaries. > > robert > > > > > > ================================ > Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking > about it a > bit, > myself. Here area few thoughts I have: > Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed > along > from > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of > lifetimes. > These > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of > which are > the > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I > suppose that > what > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial > kamma, > by the > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to > feelings, > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable > the > release of > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), > eventually > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during > a > moment of > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* > kammic > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released > for > awakening > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it > does not > quite > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of > insight" > such > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't > contradict it; > it is just different. > > With metta, > Howard > > 5115 From: Marlon McCall Date: Thu May 3, 2001 1:26pm Subject: Jon and Sarah, Amara and fellow Buddhists Dear Fellow Buddhists I was informed today by a fellow Buddhist, the events that have occurred. I was also shown the copy of the posts that caused fellow Buddhist Amara to leave. I respect the judgment of the Jon and Sarah for it is theirs alone to make. I have rejoined the group for a short period. I would like to state that no wrong was ever done to me by Buddhist Amara or any other fellow Buddhist. Comments directed at me are merely personal opinions and it carries no weight whatsoever. Ego is the only thing that gets hurt in situations like this, never the person. Buddhism is supposed to teach us to remove every bit of this most dreaded shortcoming of our human form.-EGO. If we all learn to remove EGO there will be no "cause and effect", does this sound familiar ? This is one of the fundamentals of Buddhism. Lets get this straight first before we study the intricacy and complexities of Dhamma.. Dhamma is already perfect-we are not, so lets get our house in order first before we proceed to analyze the already perfect Dhamma. We cannot see past our nose with Ego present in our hearts (Buddhist meaning for mind),. If we claim vision, it is only Ego in a different form we are seeing, not the truth. Worse, if we are preaching or interpreting Dhamma with EGO still inside us, detrimental effects will occur to the receivers in the long run. Old Buddhist doctrine forbade anyone other than Monks to pass on the Dhamma. There was a reason for the Lord Buddha's ruling. It was because of the minimal presence of EGO that allowed the monk to pass the Dhamma on, without, adding a little of his own to the Dhamma. Human EGO is responsible in Diluting and corrupting the original Dhamma. Now-adays self-styled unordained monks are busy, playing Buddha for their own gratification. This must cease. I am saddened when I read the pleas, members of this group have sent to fellow Buddhist Amara. I personally would like Fellow Buddhist Amara to return to this group, but for a different reason. Members must realize that attachments to fellow Buddhists are counter productive in your advancement in Buddhism. Buddhism teaches you to remove these personal bonds and chains that imprison you in the house of Samsara. We must apply, what we have learnt, otherwise we are wasting this life as a human, and wasting our time studding Buddhism. With Utmost Respect Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCAll . 5116 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 3, 2001 2:40pm Subject: Only monks may teach Dhamma? Marlon Dear marlon, thanks for kindly coming back and encouraging Amara to stay. Just one point. You write: --- Marlon McCall wrote: > > > Old Buddhist doctrine forbade anyone other than Monks to pass > on the > Dhamma. There was a reason for the Lord Buddha's ruling. It > was > because of the minimal presence of EGO that allowed the monk > to pass > the Dhamma on, without, adding a little of his own to the > Dhamma. There is one sutta (if anyone can find the reference) where the Buddha said he "will not pass away until monks, nuns , wise laymen and laywoman are able to proclaim this Dhamma correctly and refute any erroneous notions about Dhamma that arise" or words to that effect. One example from the suttas of a layman preaching to monks The Samyutta Nikaya the layman Citta is speaking to some senior monks: "Venerable Sirs, it is just as if a black ox and a white were joined together with a single collar or yoke. If someone were to say, 'The black ox is the fetter of the white ox, the white ox is the fetter of the black' -- speaking in this way, would he be speaking right?" And the elder monks reply: "No, householder, the black ox is not the fetter of the white ox, nor is the white ox the fetter of the black. The single collar or yoke by which they are joined -- that is the fetter there." And Citta replies: "In the same way, friend, the eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire and passion arises in dependence on the two of them -- that is the fetter there. [The same is said for the ear, nose, tongue, body and mind] The mind is not the fetter of ideas. Nor are ideas the fetter of the mind. Whatever desire or passion arises in dependence on the two of them -- that is the fetter there." Citta the householder was praised by the Buddha both as a role-model for the lay disciples and as an expounder of Dhamma . Your words about the danger of ego, especially in any Dhamma undertaking, are well put. Whether we can say that a monk has less ego because he wears the robe is open to question. monks carry the banner of the Dhamma and they have grave obligations because of this. But we laypeople should not abdicate our reponsibilty to learn and pass on Dhamma, thinking that all this is the duty of the Bhikkhus. robert 5117 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 3, 2001 2:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Erik Some general comments on the use of poetic or metaphorical language to express the dhamma. There is indeed much of poetic language in the Tipitaka, especially, but not limited to, passages such as the Dhammapada and the Thera- and Therigatha. Elsewhere, metaphors and similes abound. So there can be no question of not allowing it. But in the dhamma, precision is everything, and poeteic/mataphoric language as you know usually leaves room for different interpretations according to the listener's understanding/wrong view on the matter. All dhamma is capable of explanation in terms of absolute or moment-to-moment realities. This is the purpose and function of the commentaries and abhidhamma pitaka, without which even the suttas would be opaque to us today because of our limited understanding compared to those listening to the Buddha during his lifetime. Far from losing anything in the translation, such analysis helps us extract the true meaning ffor the texts and keeps us from taking things at their most superficial and mundane level. Erik, I would not wish to discourage you from expressing yourself as best you feel suits, but I hope you won't mind if I sometimes ask for verification according to the nitty-gritty of the abhidahmma where I think this might be useful. --- Erik wrote: > Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > Either you are saying that accumulated kilesa > > (anusaya) are 'transmuted' into kusala so that, > for > > exammple, one's accumulated dosa becomes > accumulated > > compassion. Or you are saying that kilesa are > > transmuted as and when they arise and manifest so > > that, for example, dosa arising is 'caught' and > > transmuted into compassion. > > > > In either case my question would be, what is the > > cetasika that performs this miraculous > transmutation, > > and at what stage of the sense- or mind-door > process > > does it arise? > > I am not suggesting this, have never suggested this, > and I thought > this had been clarified twice already, both by > myself, and Howard, as > a poetic description. My apologies once again. I did not mean to put words into your mouth. Consider this as simply a request for an explanation at a more prosaic level. ... > > With all respect, Erik, I would not be prepared to > > accept someone's word for it. It must be > supportable > > in terms of the pitakas and commentaries, > otherwise it > > is not dhamma. Or do you not agree with this > > proposition? > > I accept no one's word on anything, and test > everything out for > myself. I am ruthless about this. That means tantra, > that means the > teachings of the Tipitaka. I have also seen that > they harmonize (in > often suprising ways) on the things that matter > most. > > To me, the Dhamma is that which brings one most > effectively to > supramundane wisdom. To me this is the final word on > a teaching. If > it does not do this, it is the Buddha's Dhamma only > inasmuch as it > helps one abandon akusala, take up kusala, and > purify the mind (I > include the Tipitaka here). Yes, but for those of us whose understanding is far, far from the supramundane level the Tipitaka, rather than our own 'experience' (conditioned as it must be by wrong view etc) remains the only true touchstone. Jon 5118 From: wynn Date: Thu May 3, 2001 4:26pm Subject: Tanha Is all tanha unskilful? Someone wrote: "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature, but if one looks at bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one cannot but involve oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is understood in an essentially pejorative sense. For example, if bhava-ta.nhaa is essentially akusala, then making merit for a better rebirth would be essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist spiritual life begin!" In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati; A.ii.146] Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] and unskilful [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, skilful ta.nhaa is for abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of samsaric activities].' [87] Please seet this also. http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html 5119 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 3, 2001 4:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha Dear Wyn, Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala and thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for pretty well everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the operative word) preferable to have tanha towards things related to Dhamma because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For instance, I am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or Thailand to listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with tanha ( some is conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and this conditions some detachment and understanding(no tanha at those moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for wisdom. This is a great topic BTW. robert --- wynn wrote: > Is all tanha unskilful? > > Someone wrote: > > "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature, but if one > looks at > bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one cannot but > involve > oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is understood in an > essentially pejorative sense. For example, if bhava-ta.nhaa > is > essentially akusala, then making merit for a better rebirth > would be > essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist spiritual > life begin!" > > In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons ta.nhaa by > means of > ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati; A.ii.146] > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] and > unskilful > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, skilful > ta.nhaa is for > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of samsaric > activities].' [87] > > Please seet this also. > http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html > 5120 From: Marlon McCall Date: Thu May 3, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: Only monks may teach Dhamma? Marlon to Robert Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert It is most kind of you to welcome me back to the group, I assure you I will only be here for a short period, so please bare with me for just a little while. I am sure the present predicament is because of my manner of approach to things. I have a very blunt and seemingly uncompassionate approach to people., but I assure you this is the furthest from the truth. I have been taught Dhamma Vinaya from Indian Buddhist Masters. I know of no other way to express Buddhist Doctrine. I was taught that Dhamma is Serious doctrin and not for the faint harted. I am sorry if this seems harsh this is also how I preceive Dhamma. Pertaining to the teaching of Dhamma the doctrine requires very strict requirement that must be adhered to before even a single word of Dhamma may be uttered from any ones lips for the process of teaching. This is self explanatory :- and pertains to ordained monks, no dispensation was given to laypersons by Lord Buddha. Part Three: The 16 Dealing with Teaching Dhamma 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a training to be observed. 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his knees and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not ill: a training to be observed. 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. The Patimokkha The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five? "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step- by-step.' "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.' "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.' "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without disparaging myself or others.' "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching." Anguttara Nikaya V.159 ,Udayi Sutta ,About Udayin With Utmost Respect Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall 5121 From: robert Date: Thu May 3, 2001 6:53pm Subject: Re: Only monks may teach Dhamma? Marlon to Robert Dear Marlon, All of this is very useful and helpful to reflect on. Thank you. robert Marlon McCall wrote: > Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert > > It is most kind of you to welcome me back to the group, I assure you > I will only be here for a short period, so please bare with me for > just a little while. I am sure the present predicament is because of > my manner of approach to things. I have a very blunt and seemingly > uncompassionate approach to people., but I assure you this is the > furthest from the truth. I have been taught Dhamma Vinaya from Indian > Buddhist Masters. I know of no other way to express Buddhist Doctrine. > I was taught that Dhamma is Serious doctrin and not for the faint > harted. I am sorry if this seems harsh this is also how I preceive > Dhamma. > > Pertaining to the teaching of Dhamma the doctrine requires very > strict requirement that must be adhered to before even a single word > of Dhamma may be uttered from any ones lips for the process of > teaching. This is self explanatory :- and pertains to ordained monks, > no dispensation was given to laypersons by Lord Buddha. > > > Part Three: The 16 Dealing with Teaching Dhamma > 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand and > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather > [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a > training to be observed. > 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his knees > and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with a > robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not > ill: a training to be observed. > 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking ahead > who is not ill: a training to be observed. > 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person > walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. > > The Patimokkha The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > > > "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma > should be taught to others only when five qualities are established > within the person teaching. Which five? > "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step- > by-step.' > "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak > explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' > "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out > of compassion.' > "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not > for the purpose of material reward.' > "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak > without disparaging myself or others.' > "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma > should be taught to others only when these five qualities are > established within the person teaching." > > Anguttara Nikaya V.159 ,Udayi Sutta ,About Udayin > > > With Utmost Respect Always > BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA > Marlon McCall 5122 From: Alex Date: Thu May 3, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Dear Robert, Yes, you're right. When reading that message, the top part somehow rolled off the screen. It gave me a wrong vision. Thank you for showing me the correct post. Respectfully, Alex --- Robert wrote: > > Dear Robert and Howard, > > I must say that I had to smile here. You signed your post as > Howard. ... It's cute! Howard, I hope you don't mind that someone > else changes his name. > > Alex > ____________________________ > Dear Alex: here is the complete message, this time with the sections > by Howard and by me properly distinguished. > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > >ROBERT: Dear Howard, > > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of > > paticasamupada. > > > > This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha. > > We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice > > for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea > > that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring > > them that this gradually erases kamma from the past. > > The whole idea is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka. > > I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but > > managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with > > his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had > > to do this first? > > robert > >____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >HOWARD: Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking > > about it a > > bit, > > myself. Here area few thoughts I have: > > Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed > > along > > from > > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of > > lifetimes. > > These > > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of > > which are > > the > > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I > > suppose that > > what > > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial > > kamma, > > by the > > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to > > feelings, > > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable > > the > > release of > > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), > > eventually > > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during > > a > > moment of > > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* > > kammic > > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released > > for > > awakening > > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it > > does not > > quite > > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of > > insight" > > such > > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't > > contradict it; > > it is just different. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > > > In a message dated 5/1/01 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Robert writes: > > > > > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > > > Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist > > > Dhamma. However, this point: > > > > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > > > Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may > > > > shed some light > > > > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the > > > > original): > > > > > > > "Any moment in which one does > > > > not generate a > > > > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface > > of > > > > the mind, and > > > > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one > > > > remains > > > > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises > > in > > > > its place. One > > > > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and > > the > > > > old sakhara > > > > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out > > of > > > > ignorance one > > > > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, > > > > multiplies one's > > > > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to > > > > sensations, then one > > > > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is > > > > eradicated. The entire > > > > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will > > > > find that you > > > > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are > > automatically > > > > untied. > > > > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all > > > > sankhara leading to > > > > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been > > > > eradicated: the stage of > > > > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it > > is > > > > not necessary > > > > that one should first believe in past lives and future > > lives. > > > > In practising > > > > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the > > present > > > > life, one keeps > > > > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here > > and > > > > now one must > > > > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you > > > > practice, certainly a > > > > day will come when you will be able to say that you have > > > > eradicated all the > > > > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so > > have > > > > freed yourself > > > > from all suffering. " > > > > =============================== > > > > > > > > > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old > > > "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka. > > > Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to > > mean > > > kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred > > > thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life. > > > There must be an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many > > > "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. > > > As Dan said, I think this idea is denied somewhere in the > > > commentaries. > > > robert > > > > > > > > > > > ================================ > > Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking > > about it a > > bit, > > myself. Here area few thoughts I have: > > Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed > > along > > from > > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of > > lifetimes. > > These > > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of > > which are > > the > > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I > > suppose that > > what > > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial > > kamma, > > by the > > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to > > feelings, > > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable > > the > > release of > > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), > > eventually > > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during > > a > > moment of > > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* > > kammic > > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released > > for > > awakening > > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it > > does not > > quite > > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of > > insight" > > such > > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't > > contradict it; > > it is just different. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > 5123 From: Erik Date: Thu May 3, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > Some general comments on the use of poetic or > metaphorical language to express the dhamma. > > There is indeed much of poetic language in the > Tipitaka, especially, but not limited to, passages > such as the Dhammapada and the Thera- and Therigatha. > Elsewhere, metaphors and similes abound. So there can > be no question of not allowing it. But in the dhamma, > precision is everything, and poeteic/mataphoric > language as you know usually leaves room for different > interpretations according to the listener's > understanding/wrong view on the matter. > > All dhamma is capable of explanation in terms of > absolute or moment-to-moment realities. This is the > purpose and function of the commentaries and > abhidhamma pitaka, without which even the suttas would > be opaque to us today because of our limited > understanding compared to those listening to the > Buddha during his lifetime. Far from losing anything > in the translation, such analysis helps us extract the > true meaning ffor the texts and keeps us from taking > things at their most superficial and mundane level. I agree completely, which is why I'm doing this investigation at all. I just don't want to completely chuck metaphorical language though, and would like a little leeway there. So you know my intention is to validate my own understanding from the perspective of the Tripitaka, and it looks like thanks to the probing of folks like yourself, major progress. On doing a little more digging (I didn't even have to ask my lama on this one), I turned up this very interesting essay on meditation from the Tibetan perspective you may find interesting, which may clarify a lot of things. It sure did for me. It appears that indeed tantra is nothing but another variation on samatha & vipassana practice, with a shift in emphasis. What this means is I've been looking at the problem the wrong way THE ENTIRE TIME, thinking tantra is its own thing somehow. Not only is it now terribly demystified (I am almost sad in my happiness at this fact!), it is now quite apparent what's going on, been going on with it, and I was too dumb (or didn't look deeply enough) to catch this. It certainly isn't presented this way to students, I can say this with total assurance. Jon, perhaps you may be interested in perusing this linki. I think it clarifies a lot of things--at least it certainly has for me: http://www.nalandabodhi.org/tranquility.html > Erik, I would not wish to discourage you from > expressing yourself as best you feel suits, but I hope > you won't mind if I sometimes ask for verification > according to the nitty-gritty of the abhidahmma where > I think this might be useful. Jon, I think you can see how much I appreciate and am indebted to you for your probing in this manner, because through this you've forced me into a line of research that just totally terminated any issues I was having with tantra. This is one of the big reasons I've been doing this research at all, because I am intent on getting this 100% right, no errors, and so long as there appear to be discrepancies I am going to dig until I get resolution somehow. I can't afford to be wrong. Neither can you, or any of us. Many many deep bows and thank-yous, Jonothan, because this would not have been possible without your expert's eye and probing on the issues I was unable to see owing to my own lack of knowledge. Erik 5124 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 3, 2001 9:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana) Erik > > Certainly, panna of the satipatthana kind when > > developed will lead to the uprooting of > defilements. > > But the panna arising with samatha can never do > more > > than temproarily subdue kilesa. > > Jonothan, > > What you said needs to be qualified. Samatha ALONE > sans vipassana > can't uproot the kilesas. Samatha COMBINED with > vipassana (which is > the orthodox Tibetan approach) can and does. This is > through the > union of samatha & vipassana alternating with > rupajhana appana. One > enters and abides in one of the rupajhanas until > very stable and one > has very strong and "bright" samatha, and then exits > temporarily and > applies vipassana to negate with one's understanding > of > emptiness/anatta whatever one sees arising as "I" or > "self" among the > khandas, then one returns to jhana, alternating. In > this way one the > jhanas and samatha & vipassana act as mutual support > conditions for > one another, and provide the conditions for > lokuttara nana through > repeated application of the antidotes to "inherent > existence." But as I read you here (and apologies in advance if again I misread you again!), it is the panna arising at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the kilesa. The object of the citta at that moment would be a reality, whereas the object of the citta at the [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept (the nimitta of the kammatthana). That being so, in what sense can it be said that the samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and different object entirely (not to mention different function)? And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity of vipassana alone uprooting kilesa? Jon 5125 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Erik Two snips from your post (which i find contains many points for discussion) REDUCING AKUSALA > > > For example, there is the practice of "pure > vision" > > > where one > > > visualizes all beings as already perfected > Buddhas. > > > If you can 'deal with' dosa in this manner (which > i of > > course would not agree with), what's wrong with a > dose > > of good old-fashioned metta or uppekkha? > > Jon, when you're placed in a situation that > conditions a habitual > akusala reaction (returning anger with anger, for > example), and you > restrain it at that moment you typically respond in > anger, what is > the result? More akusala or more kusala? If > furthermore you've halted > a habitual reaction, then that reaction will have > fewer causes to > arise again. If we respond with love to anger > repeatedly, for > example, what is the result? A net increase in > kusala or a net > increase in akusala? Which is preferable when one is > challenged by a > situation that engenders anger? To apply this > antidote or simply > unconsciously react? That is the stark choice we > have. We can not of course assume that the akusala in question is wholly 'replaced' (or however you conceive of it) by kusala. The motivation could be, for example, fear of criticism or concern about our image in the eyes of others. It might even be desire for progress on the path, especially if we regard the presence or absence of akusala as some kind of measure of our progress. Or we might just not like the akusala - and so dosa. Even with the 'best' of motives, there are bound to be akusala moments arising along with the kusala. There is nothing wrong with this, since we all have the accumulated akusala (anusaya). But it is better to see the moments for what they truly are than to kid ourselves that they are wholly kusala. To the extent that kusala does arise in the kind of situation you have described, it would not be vipassana, anyway. Or do you see it differently? This leads on to ... THE MEANING OF 'VIPASSANA' > > To make discussion simpler, may I suggest that > > vipassana refers to a moment of citta accompanied > by > > panna that understands the true nature of the > object > > of the citta at that moment. Do you have any > comments > > on this as a basis for further discussion? > > That is certainly one valid way of describing it. In > the same way one > can describe the feeling of being "in love" as a > systemic change > brought about by increases in phenylethylamine, > dopamine, and a > number of other neurotransmitters and hormones, > accompanied by > restlessness and excitement and irrational ideation. > > Or, if one were a Bard one could put it like this: > > "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? > Thou art more lovely and more temperate: > Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, > And summer's lease hath all too short a date; > > "Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, > And often is his gold complexion dimm'd; > And every fair from fair sometime declines, > By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimm'd. > > > "But thy eternal summer shall not fade, > Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest; > Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade, > When in eternal lines to time thou growest:— > > "So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see, > So long lives this, and this gives life to thee." > > In the end how the Dhamma is rendered is a matter of > what is > beneficial for the listener, as has always been > true. This is no doubt true. In the end it > is saying the same thing in a different language > (and just how > different has become very clear to me since joining > dsg). But how can one know that the 2 people are talking about the same thing? Is there a methodology for figuring this out? I am not trying to be pedantic here, simply to show the difficulty of coming to a conclusion one way or the other unless one of the 2 is able to confirm the fact in terms of the other's language (ie. in the present case, either you accept my difintion or I accept yours - or else we look for common ground in another formulation) Jon 5126 From: Erik Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:24pm Subject: Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > But as I read you here (and apologies in advance if > again I misread you again!), it is the panna arising > at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the kilesa. > The object of the citta at that moment would be a > reality, whereas the object of the citta at the > [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept (the > nimitta of the kammatthana). > > That being so, in what sense can it be said that the > samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and > different object entirely (not to mention different > function)? > > And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity of > vipassana alone uprooting kilesa? Jon, I think you and I and all the Theravadins and Tibetans agree on the point that there is no hope of lokuttara-nana withouth vipassana. The link I gave you earlier from Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche states this explictly: "Insight or vipashyana (lhatong) is extremely important because it can eradicate the mental afflictions, whereas tranquillity (shamatha) alone cannot. That is why one wants to be able to practice them in a unified manner. The unified practice of tranquillity and insight has three steps. First one has to practice tranquillity; then one has to practice insight; and then one brings the two together. Doing this will eradicate the cause of samsara (which is mental afflictions), thereby eradicating the result of samsara (which is suffering). For that reason, it is improper to become too attached to the delight or pleasure or tranquillity, because tranquillity alone is not enough. "As was said by Lord Milarepa in a song, Shiné ge zing la ma shen par Lhatong ge metok trung par shok (Not being attached to the pool of tranquillity May I generate the flower of insight)." Jestun Milarepa, in case you don't know, is one of the most famous yogis of Tibet, who is revered as a key lineage-holder for the Kagyu, Sakya, and Geluk-pa (the one I practice in as well as the lineage of the Dalai Lama) lineages. Dzogchen Rinpoche continues: "In these two lines, tranquillity is compared to a pool of water, and insight to a lotus flower which grows up out of that pool and beautifies the pool. If one is content just with the pool of water, which exists in order that the flower can grow, and one does not actually grow the flower, it is not beautified. If however one attempts to grow the flower without the pool, it cannot arise (lotuses can only grow out of a body of water); and even if it could arise, it would dry up." This should make is diamond-clear that vipassana is taught as an ironclad-prerequisite to lokuttara nana in Tibetan Buddhiam. This is the same for all other Mahayana schools. I want to add one comment though. The essay on meditation I posted a link to mentions a "lower" level of vipassana-nana the Tibetans associate with "hinayana" (though no such term exists in the Tibetan, and is a mistranslation that does NOT suggest Theravada, to be clear, and never has in the Tibetan forumlation). What is taught is that there is a level of "subtle impermanence" (I think it's possibly the same thing as bhanganupassana nana) that arises before actual lokuttara-nana, and this is seeing things passing away. It is a lower, mundane vipassana-nana, though. This is a source of some confusion, actually, because I took this to mean earlier that sukkhavipassaka practitioners don't gain true supramundane insight, which is something I took away from what I've been taught. This is obviously a misconception the kind people here have clarified for me though the process of "momentary" jhanas. 5127 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri May 4, 2001 0:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Hi Erik, I'm rather behind which doesn't make for good debating I know! Back to juggling household chores, errands, teaching and income tax returns ;-) --- Erik wrote: > > What is a satisfactory yardstick for developing > kusala (and > forget "at this moment"--that is a sukkhavipassaka > strategy; jhanas > and the union of samatha & vipassana are the primary > practices in > Tibetan Buddhism, recall), such that one can > determine what > is "Buddhist" from what is not? Where does one draw > the line? For me, the ONLY yardstick for developing kusala (wholesomeness) is 'at this moment'. What other moment is there? Am I being dense and missing your point I wonder? If there is no kusala citta (consciousness) at the sila, dana, samatha or vipassana level right now, any other concern about its development is academic as far as I know. I wouldn't call it a sukkhavipassaka strategy or any other strategy, but the way it is. If there is no recognition or understanding of a moment of samatha now, how can it possibly be developed at any other time? I fully agree that Buddhism does not have a monopoly on kusala and its development. Indeed the term or label is not what is important. However, for any kind of kusala to develop, there has to be the understanding of moments of kusala when they arise as distinct from moments of akusala. Furthermore, without hearing the Buddha's teachings, any development of kusala will be taken for self or 'my kusala'. Only > what is found in the Tipitaka (this seems to be the > prevalent view > here)? This seems far too limiting to me. Every > major Zen and Tibetan > school teaches ariyan Dhamma, but no debate can > settle this; only > direct application and experience of the fruits can. > The proof in the > pudding is always in the tasting. To mix metaphors, > there a saying: > if the book on ducks says one thing about their > behavior, but you > observe the ducks acting differently in the wild, > believe the ducks, > not the books. agreed. So lets see how those ducks are behaving now! The more we've heard, considered and begun to 'observe' them, the more likely it is that they'll be observed correctly in the wild. Even according to the Buddha what is > found in the > Tipitaka only addresses a handful worth of the > leaves found in the > entire forest, so this is not suprising. I think that handful can keep us busy for a few aeons! > There are two very general currents of thought I > have observed > regarding the Dhamma, trends that generalize even > more broadly in > society into orthodoxy and heterodoxy. The orthodox > version says the > Dhamma is a static entity; the heterodox version > that accepts the > Dhamma as a dynamic process transforming > moment-to-moment, > necessarily, because there are no static entites to > be found > anywhere. I am, and must be, of the heterodox > category. I have seen > too many different approaches work to pass judgment > on any of them. I > have seen the fruits both in my own life and in > those of others. For > me this is not a matter for doubt. I'm more interested in the dhammas as realities which are dynamically different at each moment. If any approach helps me to understand more about what is being experienced now, that is what I consider fruitful. > > Each approach has its advantages, each has its > disadvantages. I have > seen no indication of the relative superiority or > inferiority of any > of them. I have seen the relative helpfulness or > unhelpfulness of > traditions for those of specific accumulations, > though. In general > terms, those who actually practice and sincerely try > to embody the > teachings of a given school always seem to come out > as friends to be > associate with who are worthy of emulation. To me, > anyway. Again, I'd say, that regardless of the different accumulations, any teaching that helps us to know the worlds as they are at this moment is of great value. I don't think the label or school is what matters. The Tipitaka just happens to be a very taasty pudding! Look forward to hearing more from you as always, Erik, Sarah 5128 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri May 4, 2001 0:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] another possible duplication! Dear Amara, --- Amara wrote > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group > to save them the > trouble of any more work than necessary, we're all > quite busy as it is > and I would like the discussions here to be as > beneficial as it can be > for all concerned. When we started dsg we knew very well that it would not always be easy and there would be many occasions when members would not agree with our decisions, but we're very greatful to have the chance to do our best. As we've said to you, most your posts are extremely beneficial and we'd be very sorry if you were to leave the list when you can help us all so much. > > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very > interesting discussions we > have had, I really appreciated all that I have > learned from all of > you. And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I > am sure you will > all be of great benefit to many others in the > future. Dsg is really like a family in so many ways; we don't always agree and we may not always choose our words appropriately, but we have each others' best interests at heart ;-) > > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he > intended in > teaching it, > Let's continue helping and supporting each other in this endeavour. metta, Sarah p.s thanks too for your participation in all the super discussions while we were in Bkk too. 5129 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri May 4, 2001 1:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viri... Dear Num, Howard & Dan, --- Num wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > I am too, trying to understand the subtle different > meaning between each > cetasika. At time when I read from one book, it > seems to be clear and > straight forward to grasp but when I think about > some mental phenomena or try > to put citta and cetasika together, I feel like I > miss the big picture. > Awareness and thinking about Dhamma is different, > but careful listening and > studying, I believe, can condition right > understanding. I will try to > share with you what I understand so far. I like > your question, it's kind of > helping me thinking in different angles. yes, it is only thinking, but it can be helpful to consider; for one thing it shows up what is taken for self so often. It doesn't mean that we need to pinpoint or label the reality appearing now. > > My understanding is Jivitindriya-cetasika supports, > nourishes and maintains > life of citta and cetasika which coarise with at > that moment. > Jivitindriya-cetasika coarises with every citta, and > supports both citta and > all cetasikas which coarise at that moment. It's one > of the seven universal > cetasika. Yes this is how I understand it. It's significant that it arises at every moment with every citta, giving life to citta at this very moment regardless of whether it's seeing or thinking or whatever. > While viriya, (energy, effort, viriya-cetasika is > the cetasika that > relentlessly perseveres to support its > sahajati-kamma). Viriya cetasika > coarises with every lobha-mula-citta. Yes, it arises with every kusala and akusala citta..it can be right or wrong effort. It can be of different degrees (whether kusala or akusala) and is an indriya and factor of the 8fold path when developed with panna (wisdom). Thina and > middha cetasika arise mainly > in lobha-mula-citta. So viriya still do it's job in > lobha-mula-citta. They also arise with some cittas with dosa. At all these moments with thina middha (sloth & torpor) the viriya is lazy to perform kusala of any kind. They don't just arise when we feel sleepy. The proximate cause is unwise attention (ayoniso manisakara) to the object. Only the arahat has no more thina and middha, moments when there is no 'energy' for dana, sila or bhavana. Even now while we're considering dhamma, there can be moments of boredom and distraction accompanied by these states and akusala viriya. I > think, when we are drowsy, there are some level of > lobha there, which need to > have viriya in attaching to something. Viriya is > one of predominant > factors, adhipati-paccaya. It's a predominant > factor in accomplishment a > task, both good and bad. yes, this is helpful. When we're drowsy, I think it can be with lobha or dosa. What do you think? When thina and middha are accompanied by lobha, they can also be accompanied by wrong view or not. > > > So to me jivitindriya-cetasika kind of support and > maintain. Viriya is an > effort or energy direct into something. > > > Well, that my version of my understanding. I am not > sure that it makes > anything clearer. I think this is all very helpful, Num Someone also asked about the vinnana in this big picture as distinct from the mental factors accompanying it. So, for example, at this moment of seeing, the seeing is vinnana or citta (same realitY) which is the chief in experiencing the visible object. the citta is accompanied by jivitindriya and the other universal mental factors which arise with every citta (i.e. phassa (contact), vedana (feeling), sanna(perception), cetana (volition), ekaggata (concentration0 and manisakara (attention). Seeing just sees the object while the cetasikas have their own distinct characteristics and functions, but they all depend on each other to perform their tasks. At a moment of thinking, the citta again is chief in cognizing the object (concept) and viriya and lobha and thina and middha may all perform their supporting functions quite distinct again from the chief cognizing. Some of these realities like jivitindriya or phassa are very difficult indeed to know and although it's helpful to consider the details, we shouldn't try to 'catch' them or be concerned about what the object of awareness is! Actually, perhaps I should say they're all difficult to know, but some are pretty well impossible! I don't find this discouraging at all but I know some people may. There may have been other points raised or points here that need further clarification, in which case I'm apprciating the chance to consider all these realities. Best rgds for now and thanks again for the quotes from the website, Num. Sarah 5130 From: Howard Date: Fri May 4, 2001 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] another possible duplication! Hi, Amara - I saw from Howard's message that messages get all mixed up at this > moment, so am sending this in again, hoping at least one gets through > to say farewell and thanks to all of you! > > A. > > Dear all, > > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, and > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the > following message: > > > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > >Subject: Yellow card > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > > > >Amara, > > > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content > >for this list. > > > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your > >posts without further notice. > > > >Jon & Sarah > > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them the > trouble of any more work than necessary, we're all quite busy as it is > and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it can be > for all concerned. > > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions we > have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of > you. And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you will > all be of great benefit to many others in the future. > > Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book is > finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me your > address, I will be very happy to send it to you. And those who are > interested of course, if any. > > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in > teaching it, > > Amara > ================================ I don't know whether or not you have seen the number of posts expressing the hope that you will remain on the list. I urge you to reconsider. Thank you for the repeated offer of sending me a copy of the book. I will indeed appreciate your sending it when the time has come. I won't bother you with my address now, but will wait until you announce the readiness. Once again, Amara, I do very much urge you to remain on the list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5131 From: DeBenedictis/Dhammapiyo Date: Fri May 4, 2001 6:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Yellow card Dear Amara, Please stay with DSG! Metta cittena, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo 5132 From: Erik Date: Fri May 4, 2001 7:30am Subject: Re: Yellow card --- "DeBenedictis/Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Please stay with DSG! > > Metta cittena, > > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Hey Bikkhu D. Did you get my message about hooking up while you're in the USA? My other email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=194176211115158057024218046024249223134102091046167121181053161034046249121176170 than this one. 5133 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri May 4, 2001 8:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Yellow card Amara, Take a big breath and an hot shower ! I've really learnt a lot from you. Metta from the the big old silent brazilian member ! :-) Leonardo > Dear Amara, > > Please reconsider. We are all human, and I am sure that Erik and > Marlon would find no benefit in your departure. > > We are all part of the synod that verifies the Dhamma every day. > > Escape is not possible, unfortunately :-) > > I for one am grateful for your kindnesses. > > > Herman > > > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, > and > > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the > > following message: > > > > > > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > > >Subject: Yellow card > > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST) > > > > > >Amara, > > > > > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon > > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content > > >for this list. > > > > > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any > > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your > > >posts without further notice. > > > > > >Jon & Sarah > > > > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them > the > > trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as > it > > is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it > can > > be for all concerned. > > > > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions > we > > have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of > > you. And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you > will > > all be of great benefit to many others in the future. > > > > Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book > is > > finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me > your > > address, I will be very happy to send it to you. And those who are > > interested of course, if any. > > > > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in > > teaching it, > > > > Amara 5134 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 4, 2001 10:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana) Erik Thanks for your extensive comments about the connection between panna/nana of vipassana and the eradication of defilements. As you say, on this point there is substantial agreement. However, the focus of my post to you was the role of samatha in the eradication of defilements. Would I be summarising the Tibetan texts correctly if I said- 1. It is at a moment of vipassana, not samatha, that defilements can be eradicated. 2. However, the necessary nana only arises if the moment of vipasana is preceded by a moment of samatha. (My apologies if this is too literal an interpretation of your earlier post; please modify this proposition accordingly). Just trying to understand exactly how samatha fits into the picture, according to your texts. I fully understand what you have said about Tibetan orthodoxy - I am looking for the scriptural basis for that approach. Jon --- Erik wrote: > Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Erik > > > But as I read you here (and apologies in advance > if > > again I misread you again!), it is the panna > arising > > at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the > kilesa. > > The object of the citta at that moment would be a > > reality, whereas the object of the citta at the > > [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept > (the > > nimitta of the kammatthana). > > > > That being so, in what sense can it be said that > the > > samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and > > different object entirely (not to mention > different > > function)? > > > > And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity > of > > vipassana alone uprooting kilesa? > > Jon, I think you and I and all the Theravadins and > Tibetans agree on > the point that there is no hope of lokuttara-nana > withouth vipassana. > The link I gave you earlier from Dzogchen Ponlop > Rinpoche states this > explictly: > > "Insight or vipashyana (lhatong) is extremely > important because it > can eradicate the mental afflictions, whereas > tranquillity (shamatha) > alone cannot. That is why one wants to be able to > practice them in a > unified manner. The unified practice of > tranquillity and insight has > three steps. First one has to practice > tranquillity; then one has to > practice insight; and then one brings the two > together. Doing this > will eradicate the cause of samsara (which is mental > afflictions), > thereby eradicating the result of samsara (which is > suffering). For > that reason, it is improper to become too attached > to the delight or > pleasure or tranquillity, because tranquillity alone > is not enough. > > "As was said by Lord Milarepa in a song, > Shiné ge zing la ma shen par > Lhatong ge metok trung par shok > > (Not being attached to the pool of tranquillity > May I generate the flower of insight)." > > Jestun Milarepa, in case you don't know, is one of > the most famous > yogis of Tibet, who is revered as a key > lineage-holder for the Kagyu, > Sakya, and Geluk-pa (the one I practice in as well > as the lineage of > the Dalai Lama) lineages. > > Dzogchen Rinpoche continues: > > "In these two lines, tranquillity is compared to a > pool of water, and > insight to a lotus flower which grows up out of that > pool and > beautifies the pool. If one is content just with > the pool of water, > which exists in order that the flower can grow, and > one does not > actually grow the flower, it is not beautified. If > however one > attempts to grow the flower without the pool, it > cannot arise > (lotuses can only grow out of a body of water); and > even if it could > arise, it would dry up." > > This should make is diamond-clear that vipassana is > taught as an > ironclad-prerequisite to lokuttara nana in Tibetan > Buddhiam. This is > the same for all other Mahayana schools. > > I want to add one comment though. The essay on > meditation I posted a > link to mentions a "lower" level of vipassana-nana > the Tibetans > associate with "hinayana" (though no such term > exists in the Tibetan, > and is a mistranslation that does NOT suggest > Theravada, to be clear, > and never has in the Tibetan forumlation). What is > taught is that > there is a level of "subtle impermanence" (I think > it's possibly the > same thing as bhanganupassana nana) that arises > before actual > lokuttara-nana, and this is seeing things passing > away. It is a > lower, mundane vipassana-nana, though. This is a > source of some > confusion, actually, because I took this to mean > earlier that > sukkhavipassaka practitioners don't gain true > supramundane insight, > which is something I took away from what I've been > taught. This is > obviously a misconception the kind people here have > clarified for me > though the process of "momentary" jhanas. > 5135 From: Marlon McCall Date: Fri May 4, 2001 10:39am Subject: Attention Amara this is Marlon Dear Fellow Buddhist Amara I have re-subscribed to this list on a temporary basis, that is just until you return in full force, after which I will take my leave. Lets put things into perspective here :- It is very obvious to me that you care about spreading Buddhism, as shown by your long involvement in this group. The fact that you referred to Jon and Sarah as your good friends, indicate that love for them still exists in your heart (Buddhist-Mind) The only thing standing in your way is your feelings that were hurt, by what Jon and Sarah wrote to you. For this you have two options: - One is to rid yourself of self-pity, and return to the group a better person for yourself (Self-pity will feed on you, like a festering sore filled with maggots) The other is to stay wallowing in self-pity and that will consume you totally. If you return, I will give you the pleasure of telling me off on how arrogant and rude I am, I am actually looking forward to your next post- Believe-it-or-not. Love Always Marlon McCall Ps: Amara you noticed I used Self-pity and not Ego (you see I've changed a little towards you) 5136 From: Antony Date: Fri May 4, 2001 4:35pm Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa? Derar Erik and Jon this is a really interesting discussion you are having in my experience the practice of tranquility is developed in order to lead to insight. But does the insight itself remove kilesa or is it the condition of mind developed that does not pre dispose itself to the arousal of the kilesas? antony (if that makes any sense) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > Thanks for your extensive comments about the > connection between panna/nana of vipassana and the > eradication of defilements. As you say, on this point > there is substantial agreement. > > However, the focus of my post to you was the role of > samatha in the eradication of defilements. > > Would I be summarising the Tibetan texts correctly if > I said- > 1. It is at a moment of vipassana, not samatha, that > defilements can be eradicated. > 2. However, the necessary nana only arises if the > moment of vipasana is preceded by a moment of samatha. > (My apologies if this is too literal an > interpretation of your earlier post; please modify > this proposition accordingly). > > Just trying to understand exactly how samatha fits > into the picture, according to your texts. I fully > understand what you have said about Tibetan orthodoxy > - I am looking for the scriptural basis for that > approach. > > Jon > > --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott > > wrote: > > > Erik > > > > > But as I read you here (and apologies in advance > > if > > > again I misread you again!), it is the panna > > arising > > > at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the > > kilesa. > > > The object of the citta at that moment would be a > > > reality, whereas the object of the citta at the > > > [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept > > (the > > > nimitta of the kammatthana). > > > > > > That being so, in what sense can it be said that > > the > > > samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and > > > different object entirely (not to mention > > different > > > function)? > > > > > > And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity > > of > > > vipassana alone uprooting kilesa? > > > > Jon, I think you and I and all the Theravadins and > > Tibetans agree on > > the point that there is no hope of lokuttara-nana > > withouth vipassana. > > The link I gave you earlier from Dzogchen Ponlop > > Rinpoche states this > > explictly: > > > > "Insight or vipashyana (lhatong) is extremely > > important because it > > can eradicate the mental afflictions, whereas > > tranquillity (shamatha) > > alone cannot. That is why one wants to be able to > > practice them in a > > unified manner. The unified practice of > > tranquillity and insight has > > three steps. First one has to practice > > tranquillity; then one has to > > practice insight; and then one brings the two > > together. Doing this > > will eradicate the cause of samsara (which is mental > > afflictions), > > thereby eradicating the result of samsara (which is > > suffering). For > > that reason, it is improper to become too attached > > to the delight or > > pleasure or tranquillity, because tranquillity alone > > is not enough. > > > > "As was said by Lord Milarepa in a song, > > Shiné ge zing la ma shen par > > Lhatong ge metok trung par shok > > > > (Not being attached to the pool of tranquillity > > May I generate the flower of insight)." > > > > Jestun Milarepa, in case you don't know, is one of > > the most famous > > yogis of Tibet, who is revered as a key > > lineage-holder for the Kagyu, > > Sakya, and Geluk-pa (the one I practice in as well > > as the lineage of > > the Dalai Lama) lineages. > > > > Dzogchen Rinpoche continues: > > > > "In these two lines, tranquillity is compared to a > > pool of water, and > > insight to a lotus flower which grows up out of that > > pool and > > beautifies the pool. If one is content just with > > the pool of water, > > which exists in order that the flower can grow, and > > one does not > > actually grow the flower, it is not beautified. If > > however one > > attempts to grow the flower without the pool, it > > cannot arise > > (lotuses can only grow out of a body of water); and > > even if it could > > arise, it would dry up." > > > > This should make is diamond-clear that vipassana is > > taught as an > > ironclad-prerequisite to lokuttara nana in Tibetan > > Buddhiam. This is > > the same for all other Mahayana schools. > > > > I want to add one comment though. The essay on > > meditation I posted a > > link to mentions a "lower" level of vipassana-nana > > the Tibetans > > associate with "hinayana" (though no such term > > exists in the Tibetan, > > and is a mistranslation that does NOT suggest > > Theravada, to be clear, > > and never has in the Tibetan forumlation). What is > > taught is that > > there is a level of "subtle impermanence" (I think > > it's possibly the > > same thing as bhanganupassana nana) that arises > > before actual > > lokuttara-nana, and this is seeing things passing > > away. It is a > > lower, mundane vipassana-nana, though. This is a > > source of some > > confusion, actually, because I took this to mean > > earlier that > > sukkhavipassaka practitioners don't gain true > > supramundane insight, > > which is something I took away from what I've been > > taught. This is > > obviously a misconception the kind people here have > > clarified for me > > though the process of "momentary" jhanas. > > 5137 From: Marlon McCall Date: Fri May 4, 2001 4:20pm Subject: Whats in a Name Fellow Buddhists (copy of post to D-L) It would be acceptable if the only thing changed was the Name Buddhism, but unfortunately it is only a very small facet of the monumental changes that took place. After reading Below can you tell me what do you perceive as the original and true Dhamma in your opinion only- Theravada Buddhism – First Buddhist Council -1 year after Lord Buddha's Death - Buddhism splits into 4 factions 10 yrs after Lord Buddha's Death- Buddhism has split into 16 factions Third Buddhist Council - Convened by King Ashoka and held at Pataliputra to remove Hindu beliefs and rituals from Buddhism Fourth Buddhist Council (100 CE) - Buddhism had split into 500 factions. Ultimately, 18 schools were left, each with their own interpretations of various issues, and spread all over India and Southeast Asia. Today, only the school stemming from the Sri Lankan Theravadan survives Mahayana Buddhism- People were used to gods and heroes. So, the Trikaya (three bodies) doctrine came into being: Not only was Buddha a man who became enlightened, he was also represented by various god-like Buddhas in various appealing heavens, as well as by the Dharma itself, or Shunyata (emptiness), or Buddha-Mind 800 CE----A religious struggle in Tibet with local nature religion called Bonism which claimed the gods were angry with the acceptance of Buddhism, by the Tibetans. Buddhism countered by installing local Tibetan deities as guardian to Buddha and Bodhisattvas and by accepting indigenous rituals). New scriptures invented, Prajńaparamita, Suddharma-pundarika, Avalokiteshwara, Vimalakirti-nirdesha, Shurangama-samadhi, Sukhavati- vyuha, etc With Utmost Respect Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall 5138 From: Erik Date: Sat May 5, 2001 1:21am Subject: Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > Thanks for your extensive comments about the > connection between panna/nana of vipassana and the > eradication of defilements. As you say, on this point > there is substantial agreement. > > However, the focus of my post to you was the role of > samatha in the eradication of defilements. > > Would I be summarising the Tibetan texts correctly if > I said- > 1. It is at a moment of vipassana, not samatha, that > defilements can be eradicated. > 2. However, the necessary nana only arises if the > moment of vipasana is preceded by a moment of samatha. > (My apologies if this is too literal an > interpretation of your earlier post; please modify > this proposition accordingly). > > Just trying to understand exactly how samatha fits > into the picture, according to your texts. I fully > understand what you have said about Tibetan orthodoxy > - I am looking for the scriptural basis for that > approach. No problemo. Without reference to any texts I can say that I can't imagine the jhanas without very bright, stable samatha being present. Using the texts as references, it is said that one must first have samatha before vipassana, that without samatha no vipassana. Master Shantideva (author of the important "Guide to the Bodhisatva's Way of Life," which is a core text in the Tibetan curriculum, notes: "Having understood that the afflictive emotions Are overcome through special insight, Thoroughly endowed with calm abiding, One should first seek calm abiding. "Commentary: Without samatha, the mere thorough analysis of phenomena is not capable of overcoming afflictive emotions. To cut something with a knife, we need a steady hand; without it we cannot cut anything well. Similarly, although the main cause of overcoming afflictive emotions is panna, the mere factor of panna without the factor of stability--calm abiding--cannot overcome afflictive emotions. For example, to chop a piece of wood we cannot chop here and there; we have to keep chopping in the same place. Similarly, it is not suitable to analyze a little here and there; we need the factor of stability. If we analyze within a very firm factor of stability, we will be able to overcome the afflictive emotions. If the wisdom that penetrates the mode of being is conjoined with an unfluctuating calm abiding, that sharp weapon of the wisdom of the Middle Way free from the two extremes can destroy every wrong conception. Therefore, we should initially seek calm abiding.) "First debate: "Objection: That without the attainment of samatha there is no attainment of vipassana contradicts Asanga's statement in the "Compendium of Manifest Knowledge": "Some have attained special insight but have not attained calm abiding; in dependence on special insight they make effort at calm abiding." (author's commentary: if this statement is taken literally, then it indeed contradicts our system. It needs to be interpreted). "Answer: it is not contradictory because the thought of this passage is that, in dependence upon special insight which directly realizes the four truths and is included within the preparations for the first jhana, one achieves samatha, included within an actual first jhana that directly realizes the Four Noble Truths. "Commentary: Although in general we must achieve calm abiding forst and then achieve special insight, there are cases of achieving a type of special insight first and then a type of calm abiding. For example, there is a calm abiding, included within the Path of Seeing (Note: same as sotapatti) that is an effect of a special insight at the time of the Path of Preparation (note:: which refers to the stage directly preceding sotapatti where the higher levels of lokiya vipassana-nana arise, such as "subtle impermanence" of seeing dhammas passing away, and frightfulness, etc). "Preparations and actual concentrations are necessary in a relationship of cause and effect. The preparations for the first jhana must precede the actual first jhana. What is being referred to here is a special insight directly realizing emptiness and the four truths and included within a preparation for the first jhana. If that special insight serves as the cause, then the effect could be calm abiding included within an actual first jhana, that calm abiding being a consciousness directly realizing emptiness and the four truths." Jonothan, there is more to this which I can post if you're interested in diving deeper. This should provide some grist for debate if there is any dispute on any of these points, because this is as close to definitive as it gets in terms of my own school's presentation of same. Comments from the perspective of the Tripitaka? 5139 From: Howard Date: Sat May 5, 2001 2:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Yellow care (possible duplication!) Hi, Amara - In a message dated 5/4/01 1:37:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > I sent this out some time ago as well as a message to unsubscribe, > using Howard's convenient link, but it never got through, or perhaps I > am already moderated, contrary to what the moderators told me! > > ============================ Your accumulations simply require that you remain on the list, Amara! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5140 From: Howard Date: Sat May 5, 2001 10:04am Subject: Re: Attention Amara this is Marlon Hi, Marlon - If you will permit me the presumptuousness, I wish to tell you that I think this is a very lovely post of yours! With metta, Howard --- Marlon McCall wrote: > Dear Fellow Buddhist Amara > > I have re-subscribed to this list on a temporary basis, that is just > until you return in full force, after which I will take my leave. > Lets put things into perspective here :- > > It is very obvious to me that you care about spreading Buddhism, as > shown by your long involvement in this group. > > The fact that you referred to Jon and Sarah as your good friends, > indicate that love for them still exists in your heart (Buddhist- Mind) > > The only thing standing in your way is your feelings that were hurt, > by what Jon and Sarah wrote to you. > > For this you have two options: - > > One is to rid yourself of self-pity, and return to the group a better > person for yourself (Self-pity will feed on you, like a festering > sore filled with maggots) > > The other is to stay wallowing in self-pity and that will consume you > totally. > > If you return, I will give you the pleasure of telling me off on how > arrogant and rude I am, I am actually looking forward to your next > post- Believe-it-or-not. > > Love Always Marlon McCall > > Ps: Amara you noticed I used Self-pity and not Ego (you see I've > changed a little towards you) 5141 From: Howard Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Hi, Jon (and Erik) - In a message dated 5/4/01 10:36:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Erik > > Some general comments on the use of poetic or > metaphorical language to express the dhamma. > > There is indeed much of poetic language in the > Tipitaka, especially, but not limited to, passages > such as the Dhammapada and the Thera- and Therigatha. > Elsewhere, metaphors and similes abound. So there can > be no question of not allowing it. But in the dhamma, > precision is everything, and poeteic/mataphoric > language as you know usually leaves room for different > interpretations according to the listener's > understanding/wrong view on the matter. > > All dhamma is capable of explanation in terms of > absolute or moment-to-moment realities. This is the > purpose and function of the commentaries and > abhidhamma pitaka, without which even the suttas would > be opaque to us today because of our limited > understanding compared to those listening to the > Buddha during his lifetime. Far from losing anything > in the translation, such analysis helps us extract the > true meaning ffor the texts and keeps us from taking > things at their most superficial and mundane level. > > Erik, I would not wish to discourage you from > expressing yourself as best you feel suits, but I hope > you won't mind if I sometimes ask for verification > according to the nitty-gritty of the abhidahmma where > I think this might be useful. > ============================ I think your position here is quite balanced, though listing slightly away from the metaphorical side. I think that both forms of language are important, and I think that there can be benefits and dangers to be found in each. The benefit in precise and literal language is its objectivity and its appeal to the intellect. Its danger is in its potential for dryness and sterility, appealing only to the intellect. A danger in metaphorical/poetic language is, as you rightly point out, its non-objectivity and openness to misinterpretation. A benefit that can be found in it is its ability to appeal directly to the heart and to direct, wordless intuition, bypassing concept and intellect. My position is also basically balanced, though I tend to list somewhat towards the metaphorical. The Buddha used both types of language in the suttas.The examples of literal speech are more than plentiful, but so are examples of the use of metaphor, such as in talking about "crossing the flood", attaining "the far shore", and so on and so forth. As I see it, whatever speech is used - so long as it is true, useful to be spoken, and appropriate in time and context, is for the good. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5142 From: Darren Goh Date: Sat May 5, 2001 2:52pm Subject: Internet Dhamma Messageboard is great! I want to thank all of you for providing this great Dhamma training ground! I couldn't find a better training place than this virtual community. All new list members, you have come to the right place. I think I am addicted, so much to learn here, and full of entertainment value too! It's better than soap opera. *laugh* A few words to make your reading worthwhile: "What we have to understand in working with anger and ill will is true of all the difficulties in our practice: that they are our strongest teachers. This became very clear in the spiritual community that G. I. Gurdjieff led in France. One old man who lived there was a personification of these qualities - irritable, messy, fighting with everyone, and unwilling to clean up or help at all. No one got along with him. Finally, after many frustrating months of trying to stay with the group, the old man left for Paris. Gurdjieff followed him and tried to convince him to return, but it had been too hard, and the man said no. At last Gurdjieff offered the man a very big monthly stipend if he return. How could he refuse ? When he returned, everyone was aghast, and on hearing that he was being paid (while othet were being charged a lot to be there), the community was up in arms. Gurdjieff called them together and after hearing their complaints laugned and explained: "This man is like yearst for bread." He said, "Without him here you would never really learn about anger, irritability, patience, and compassion. That's why you pay me, and why I hire him." - Seeking the Heart of Wisdom, Joseph Goldstein & Jack Kornfield. pg 48. PS: Marlon, I am in no way implying that you are the old man. :) Please know that I have the upmost respect for you. You protective spirit of Dhamma is very admirable. Especially after reading this book: http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob.htm Sincerely, Darren (a lurker) 5143 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat May 5, 2001 4:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Internet Dhamma Messageboard is great! Dear darren, thanks for your post, which made me laugh too. It IS like a saop opera sometimes - and we all act our parts in character. (And when we act out of character that adds special interest). I am sure it is a good learning place for active and lurking members. Best wishes robert p.s.Gurdjieff knew alot about human nature alright. --- Darren Goh wrote: > I want to thank all of you for providing this great Dhamma > training > ground! I couldn't find a better training place than this > virtual > community. All new list members, you have come to the right > place. I > think I am addicted, so much to learn here, and full of > entertainment > value too! It's better than soap opera. *laugh* > > A few words to make your reading worthwhile: > > "What we have to understand in working with anger and ill will > is > true of all the difficulties in our practice: that they are > our > strongest teachers. This became very clear in the spiritual > community > that G. I. Gurdjieff led in France. One old man who lived > there was a > personification of these qualities - irritable, messy, > fighting with > everyone, and unwilling to clean up or help at all. No one got > along > with him. Finally, after many frustrating months of trying to > stay > with the group, the old man left for Paris. Gurdjieff followed > him > and tried to convince him to return, but it had been too hard, > and > the man said no. At last Gurdjieff offered the man a very big > monthly > stipend if he return. How could he refuse ? When he returned, > everyone was aghast, and on hearing that he was being paid > (while > othet were being charged a lot to be there), the community was > up in > arms. Gurdjieff called them together and after hearing their > complaints laugned and explained: "This man is like yearst for > > bread." He said, "Without him here you would never really > learn about > anger, irritability, patience, and compassion. That's why you > pay me, > and why I hire him." - Seeking the Heart of Wisdom, Joseph > Goldstein > & Jack Kornfield. pg 48. > > PS: Marlon, I am in no way implying that you are the old man. > :) > Please know that I have the upmost respect for you. You > protective > spirit of Dhamma is very admirable. Especially after reading > this > book: http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob.htm > > > Sincerely, > Darren (a lurker) > 5144 From: Herman Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: Whats in a Name Marlon, You are a marvel!!!! I have read this post and your posts to friend Amara asking her to return to the list, and I am plagued by one question: Are you the same Marlon who is not very fond of Jains? (Serious question)If you understand the huge diversity of "heresies" that have arisen over time, and you understand the political and social nature of the seedbed in which these teachings were born, why the special attachment to the loathing of Jains, whatever they may be. Surely there are different views within the Jain community as well? I am not being critical of you , I wish to understand. Kind Regards Herman --- Marlon McCall wrote: > Fellow Buddhists (copy of post to D-L) > > It would be acceptable if the only thing changed was the Name > Buddhism, but unfortunately it is only a very small facet of the > monumental changes that took place. > After reading Below can you tell me what do you perceive as the > original and true Dhamma in your opinion only- > > Theravada Buddhism – > > First Buddhist Council -1 year after Lord Buddha's Death - Buddhism > splits into 4 factions > 10 yrs after Lord Buddha's Death- Buddhism has split into 16 factions > Third Buddhist Council - Convened by King Ashoka and held at > Pataliputra to remove Hindu beliefs and rituals from Buddhism > Fourth Buddhist Council (100 CE) - Buddhism had split into 500 > factions. > Ultimately, 18 schools were left, each with their own interpretations > of various issues, and spread all over India and Southeast Asia. > Today, only the school stemming from the Sri Lankan Theravadan > survives > > > Mahayana Buddhism- > > People were used to gods and heroes. So, the Trikaya (three bodies) > doctrine came into being: Not only was Buddha a man who became > enlightened, he was also represented by various god-like Buddhas in > various appealing heavens, as well as by the Dharma itself, or > Shunyata (emptiness), or Buddha-Mind > > 800 CE----A religious struggle in Tibet with local nature religion > called Bonism which claimed the gods were angry with the acceptance > of Buddhism, by the Tibetans. Buddhism countered by installing local > Tibetan deities as guardian to Buddha and Bodhisattvas and by > accepting indigenous rituals). > > New scriptures invented, Prajńaparamita, Suddharma-pundarika, > Avalokiteshwara, Vimalakirti-nirdesha, Shurangama-samadhi, Sukhavati- > vyuha, etc > > With Utmost Respect Always > BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA > Marlon McCall 5145 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Beginning- discouraged, depressed Dear Rob & friends, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Nina wrote to me as I mentioned some people feel > discouraged: > > "Each level of kusala is valuable, we should not > despise kusala > such as > anumodana dana, or helping, even without pa~n~naa. > And without > the > Buddha we > would not know about these kusala, we should be > grateful and > happy. Rob, I'm glad you raised this topic as quite a few people tell me they feel discouraged and depressed at times. We may think we've studied the dhamma for quite a long time and that there should be more awareness and understanding or that we should always be friendly and helpful with our 'sunny' personalities apparent. When we have any idea that 'we' should be any other way, it shows the clinging to self at that moment. At those times we forget about the opportunity for metta or dana or for knowing more about whatever reality is presenting itself. We can become obsessed with ourselves. I've always found this verse from the Udana rather poignant: "I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another." S. i, 75; Ud. 47 (I copied out some interesting notes from the commentary to this, but I seem to have lost them when my students arrived a little early!!...will happily do so again if anyone is interested.) >The fact that one is > disheartened is > also a > conditioned nama, it will not stay. > Listening thirty years is short, we all know. But we > have > confidence, we are beginning on the Path. Sarah > said, > we > are in nursery school, and I like that very much. We > should be > grateful > to > be beginners. There must be a beginning and once it > will lead to > the > goal, > we do not know when. We have to accept that there > are ups and > downs > along > the Path. When we have expectations about the progress or development of skilful states, again there is no detachment from what is conditioned already. We cling to being a better person instead of appreciating just a moment of kusala (wholesomeness of any kind) at this moment. Yesterday before my class, I planned to write a couple of posts here, but I felt so tired, I had to lie down. There was some dosa (aversion) and 'resistance' to feeling tired but as I lay down drowsily, there were conditions to reflect on thina and middha as being lazy for kusala (sloth & torpor), a little awareness of the dosa being experienced and then moments of calm as there were conditions to reflect on some kindness I'd had the opportunity to show to some waiters in the morning. Any moments of kusala are so valuable and I'm so grateful I know just a very little about the difference between kusala and akusala states from listening and considering the dhamma. Finally, I am just reminded (prompted by recent discussions with K.Sujin) that while we study and consider and practice, we should remember the purpose of the Teachings, even as we read and listen now so that we can 'practice' both for our own benefit and that of others : "These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." Anguttara Nikaya IV.96 Raga-vinaya Sutta The Subduing of Passion "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own. The one who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others. The one who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others. "Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre -- burning at both ends, covered with excrement in the middle -- is used as fuel neither in a village nor in the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own is the higher & more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is, of these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost -- in the same way, of these four, the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of other is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. "These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." Anguttara Nikaya IV.95 Chavalata Sutta The Firebrand http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-95.html Best wishes and my hope that those who feel discouraged or despondent at times may feel a little more encouraged even if all we can do is to express a little metta. Sarah (Mike, thanks for yr help in locating the suttas) 5146 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Internet Dhamma Messageboard is great! Darren, This is a very funny story....!!! Someone should do a study on 'coming out' posts....we have some grand entrances! Glad you're having such a good time....just a little while someone commented it was all too 'dry'...so you've timed your arrival better. Hope to hear some more about you and your comments, so no more lurking! Sarah --- Darren Goh wrote: > I want to thank all of you for providing this great > Dhamma training > ground! I couldn't find a better training place than > this virtual > community. All new list members, you have come to > the right place. I > think I am addicted, so much to learn here, and full > of entertainment > value too! It's better than soap opera. *laugh* > > A few words to make your reading worthwhile: > > "What we have to understand in working with anger > and ill will is > true of all the difficulties in our practice: that > they are our > strongest teachers. This became very clear in the > spiritual community > that G. I. Gurdjieff led in France. One old man who > lived there was a > personification of these qualities - irritable, > messy, fighting with > everyone, and unwilling to clean up or help at all. > No one got along > with him. Finally, after many frustrating months of > trying to stay > with the group, the old man left for Paris. > Gurdjieff followed him > and tried to convince him to return, but it had been > too hard, and > the man said no. At last Gurdjieff offered the man a > very big monthly > stipend if he return. How could he refuse ? When he > returned, > everyone was aghast, and on hearing that he was > being paid (while > othet were being charged a lot to be there), the > community was up in > arms. Gurdjieff called them together and after > hearing their > complaints laugned and explained: "This man is like > yearst for > bread." He said, "Without him here you would never > really learn about > anger, irritability, patience, and compassion. > That's why you pay me, > and why I hire him." - Seeking the Heart of Wisdom, > Joseph Goldstein > & Jack Kornfield. pg 48. > > PS: Marlon, I am in no way implying that you are the > old man. :) > Please know that I have the upmost respect for you. > You protective > spirit of Dhamma is very admirable. Especially after > reading this > book: http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob.htm > > > Sincerely, > Darren (a lurker) 5147 From: Herman Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:21pm Subject: Laundry Hi all, I am sorry if the issue I am raising is considered provocative or out of line, it is something I have been thinking about, and I simply would like to canvas other thoughts on this matter. Social interaction can be difficult. It can be the most difficult thing there is. The things that other people say and do, how they expose the little veils of protection we carry around to help us avoid the reality that we all share. Even when people are ostensibly heading in the same direction, they still require a manual on how to interact, a Vinaya. Even when we are not meeting face to face, but restrict ourself to typing english language sentences (with a bit of Pali thrown in) to each other over the Internet, we come across anger, aversion regarding the other view, clinging to the own view etc in ourselves. This is absolutely not a criticism of myself or any else. It is simply an observation of myself, and a projection that it may be the same elsewhere. But really, these feelings that arise as part of this Internet interaction are not a problem. They are there, and an acknowledgement that this is what is happening right now is a good response, I reckon. (I am finally getting to the gist of this post) I have been thinking that there may be a whole lot of off-list posting going on, in a well-intentioned effort to sanitise the appearance of the list . If this off-list posting falls completely outside of the terms of reference of the list than that is nothing to to with the list, no issue there. (I have received a very small number of off-list posts, and this post is absolutely, unequivocally not prompted by any of them) But if the off-list posting is connected with things that are being discussed on the list, then there is a chance that a separate , private bubble arises, a separate private sangha arises. (I am starting to have misgivings about this post, but I have been typing and editing for a fair while , and I do think my intentions are OK , so I'll keep going.) To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with our laundry being aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection of a current state of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, edit , revise, till we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and discuss it privately with someone we feel comfortable with in our laundry, not really knowing whether it is clean or dirty? With lovingkindness Herman 5148 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: uprooting your kilesa? Antony --- Antony wrote: > Derar Erik and Jon > > this is a really interesting discussion you are > having > > in my experience the practice of tranquility is > developed in order to > lead to insight. But does the insight itself remove > kilesa or is it > the condition of mind developed that does not pre > dispose itself to > the arousal of the kilesas? A good question. Your question neatly brings into focus some of the differences between samatha bhavana (the development of tranquillity) and vipassana bhavana (the development of insight, or understanding). The development of samatha is all about developing wholesome states of mind. In order to achieve this to its highest degree, the mind is trained to the extent that the kilesas do not arise or, as you have so neatly put it, the mind is not disposed to the arousal of the kilesas. This is achieved by attaining one pointedness of mind on one of the 40 meditation objects (kammatthana). Only those 40 objects are suitable for the development of samatha. Vipassana, or insight, is the development of awareness of a characteristic of a reality as appearing at that moment which, when developed, leads to the understanding of the true nature of the characteristics of that reality and of all realities. There are no particular 'objects' that are suitable for awareness or understanding - any reality that appears at a given moment can be the object of awareness if awareness arises at that moment. Coming to your question, while kilesas are subdued in the development of samatha at its higher levels, they are not actually eradicated. This means they will arise again in the future, given the right conditions. Only the panna (understanding) developed by vipassana can eradicate kilesa finally. Whether the development of tranquillity is in fact necessary for the development of insight is a matter of some debate. My own view is that it is not (but that is a whole other subject for debate!). Antony, as a dhamma practitioner of some considerable experience, you no doubt have some views of your own on this subject. Do share them! Jon 5149 From: robert Date: Sat May 5, 2001 11:52pm Subject: Re: Laundry Nice one Herman,--- Herman wrote: > > To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with our laundry being > aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection of a current state > of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, edit , revise, till > we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and discuss it privately > with someone we feel comfortable with in our laundry, not really > knowing whether it is clean or dirty? I think we do what we do. This being a Dhamma list some of it is kusala (wholesome)- possibly more so than in most interactions. For myself even when I write something that looks kusala there is quite often a hint or more of akusala. If it sounds good (or I think so) for sure that is mana(conceit). If I want others to like it that is clinging. These factors are sometimes stronger if I spend time and labour over it than with a quick reply. Nevertheless there are outward ways of interacting with people. The monks have their vinaya which help to remind them also of the cittas that condition behaviour. We are writing on a forum where kindness, rightview, compassion, patience and other wholesome qualities are revered. This tends to modify our writing so that it conforms to some degree with these beneficial characteristics - even if often our innermost motives are tainted. Sometimes it is the right time to be very direct in a reply, while other times more subtlety helps one to listen better, I think. I find writing on this list affects my speech and thinking also in other arenas. It becomes a little more clear whenever I'm tempted into harsh speech or speech about trivial matters. This is just my feeling. Good to see your comments which I hope others add to. robert 5150 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 6, 2001 4:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana) Erik Thanks for going to the trouble of giving this detail. I would be happy to make some comments. A general observation first. I am not sure how 'close' to the Tibetan suttas, commentaries and abhidhamma the writing of Master Shantideva is. Does he cite textual references for his statements? I would also be interested to know in approximately what era he is writing. I accept, however, for the purpose of this discussion that he represents the Tibetan position or at least one school of it. Some of the references in the quoted passage are puzzling to a Theravadin. (I leave aside for the moment the statement that vipassana cannot be developed without samatha -- this is the subject of much debate in the Theravadin tradition also). I am wondering if you could clarify them for me. (1) "The afflictive emotions are overcome through special insight thoroughly endowed with calm abiding", and "The wisdom that penetrates the mode of being is conjoined with an unfluctuating calm abiding" Does 'calm abiding' here refer to moments of samatha and, if so, when does the samatha occur in relation to the citta that is moment of insight (vipassana)? In the Theravadin tradition, samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are separate and distinct forms of kusala, so the concept of vipassana 'endowed with' or 'conjoined with' samatha at the moment of eradication of defilements is not found. If on the other hand it is a reference to a series of cittas, the samatha preceding the arising of vipassana or something like that, then this presents a somewhat different picture, and I would be interested to know the proximity of the 2 and the textual basis for it. (2) "One achieves samatha, included within an actual first jhana that directly realizes the Four Noble Truths" and "Calm abiding being a consciousness directly realizing emptiness and the four truths" The apparent departures here are - (a) In the Theravadin tradition, only a moment of vipassana can realize one of the lakkhana (characteristics) of reality or the four noble truths (which are of course truths about realities, not concepts). Such truths cannot be realized at a moment of samatha. (b) In the Theravadin tradition, jhana refers to cittas which are one-pointed in an object to the point of absorption, and is an attainment resulting from the development of samatha to an extremely high degree. To talk about 'samatha included within a first jhana' seems to imply a different relationship between the 2 terms. (3) "A special insight directly realizing emptiness and the four truths and included within a preparation for the first jhana". Since samatha and vipassana are different in function, objective and result, the realization of a characteristic of reality cannot be the outcome of the development of samatha (I am assuming here that 'preparation for the first jhana' is a reference to samatha bhavana). Erik, these are my comments from the perspective of the Tipitaka. I hope I have managed to make my queries clear. Jon --- Erik wrote: > . . . > No problemo. Without reference to any texts I can > say that I can't > imagine the jhanas without very bright, stable > samatha being present. > > Using the texts as references, it is said that one > must first have > samatha before vipassana, that without samatha no > vipassana. > > Master Shantideva (author of the important "Guide to > the Bodhisatva's > Way of Life," which is a core text in the Tibetan > curriculum, notes: > > "Having understood that the afflictive emotions > Are overcome through special insight, > Thoroughly endowed with calm abiding, > One should first seek calm abiding. > > "Commentary: Without samatha, the mere thorough > analysis of phenomena > is not capable of overcoming afflictive emotions. To > cut something > with a knife, we need a steady hand; without it we > cannot cut > anything well. Similarly, although the main cause of > overcoming > afflictive emotions is panna, the mere factor of > panna without the > factor of stability--calm abiding--cannot overcome > afflictive > emotions. For example, to chop a piece of wood we > cannot chop here > and there; we have to keep chopping in the same > place. Similarly, it > is not suitable to analyze a little here and there; > we need the > factor of stability. If we analyze within a very > firm factor of > stability, we will be able to overcome the > afflictive emotions. If > the wisdom that penetrates the mode of being is > conjoined with an > unfluctuating calm abiding, that sharp weapon of the > wisdom of the > Middle Way free from the two extremes can destroy > every wrong > conception. Therefore, we should initially seek calm > abiding.) > > "First debate: > > "Objection: That without the attainment of samatha > there is no > attainment of vipassana contradicts Asanga's > statement in > the "Compendium of Manifest Knowledge": > > "Some have attained special insight but have not > attained calm > abiding; in dependence on special insight they make > effort at calm > abiding." (author's commentary: if this statement is > taken literally, > then it indeed contradicts our system. It needs to > be interpreted). > > "Answer: it is not contradictory because the thought > of this passage > is that, in dependence upon special insight which > directly realizes > the four truths and is included within the > preparations for the first > jhana, one achieves samatha, included within an > actual first jhana > that directly realizes the Four Noble Truths. > > "Commentary: Although in general we must achieve > calm abiding forst > and then achieve special insight, there are cases of > achieving a type > of special insight first and then a type of calm > abiding. For > example, there is a calm abiding, included within > the Path of Seeing > (Note: same as sotapatti) that is an effect of a > special insight at > the time of the Path of Preparation (note:: which > refers to the stage > directly preceding sotapatti where the higher levels > of lokiya > vipassana-nana arise, such as "subtle impermanence" > of seeing dhammas > passing away, and frightfulness, etc). > > "Preparations and actual concentrations are > necessary in a > relationship of cause and effect. The preparations > for the first > jhana must precede the actual first jhana. What is > being referred to > here is a special insight directly realizing > emptiness and the four > truths and included within a preparation for the > first jhana. If that > special insight serves as the cause, then the effect > could be calm > abiding included within an actual first jhana, that > calm abiding > being a consciousness directly realizing emptiness > and the four > truths." > > Jonothan, there is more to this which I can post if > you're interested > in diving deeper. This should provide some grist for > debate if there > is any dispute on any of these points, because this > is as close to > definitive as it gets in terms of my own school's > presentation of > same. > > Comments from the perspective of the Tripitaka? 5151 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 6, 2001 4:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Metaphorical v. literal (was 'Vajrayana') Howard > I think your position here is quite balanced, > though listing slightly > away from the metaphorical side. Many would think that 'slightly' was putting it mildly, I'm sure! I think that both > forms of language are > important, and I think that there can be benefits > and dangers to be found in > each. The benefit in precise and literal language is > its objectivity and its > appeal to the intellect. Its danger is in its > potential for dryness and > sterility, appealing only to the intellect. A danger > in metaphorical/poetic > language is, as you rightly point out, its > non-objectivity and openness to > misinterpretation. A benefit that can be found in it > is its ability to appeal > directly to the heart and to direct, wordless > intuition, bypassing concept > and intellect. My position is also basically > balanced, though I tend to list > somewhat towards the metaphorical. The Buddha used > both types of language in > the suttas.The examples of literal speech are more > than plentiful, but so are > examples of the use of metaphor, such as in talking > about "crossing the > flood", attaining "the far shore", and so on and so > forth. As I see it, > whatever speech is used - so long as it is true, > useful to be spoken, and > appropriate in time and context, is for the good. > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for this useful summary. Reading what you have said, though, I would have no hesitation in judging the dangers of metaphorical language to be the greater of the two; but that is no doubt just a reflection of my own bias. I do however see a significant difference between the Buddha's use of poetic/metaphorical language and ours. The Buddha knew perfectly of what he spoke, and the level of understanding of his audience was so much higher than is ours today. There was literally no room for misinterpretation. I am sure that metaphorical language has a role. However, when it comes to trying to understand the differences between, say, samatha and vipassana or viriya and jivitindriya, literalness and precision are very useful. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Does anyone know of any sutta references that bear on this question? Jon 5152 From: Marlon McCall Date: Sun May 6, 2001 4:03pm Subject: Compliment to Herman and Robert Dear Fellow Buddhist Herman and Robert Herman, please permit me to compliment you on "The Most" Inspiring "Original" Post I have ever read (Post No 5147 – Laundry) You Sir have the ability to see through walls, and eventually all dimensions (spheres), I am sure. Robert please permit me to also compliment you on "The Most" inspiring "Thread" Post I have ever read (Post No 5149 – Laundry) You Sir have the ability to absorb and emit words directly from within you. This Noble ability is a rare achievement in anyone's lifetime. As these two gentleman have so eloquently expounded, this is the reason alone that constricts our ability to speak our mind(truth), so we end up behaving like hypocrites to ourselves and the Dhamma which we profess to claim to follow so earnestly. I Sir, have the rare privilege of being able to compliment anyone I so wish, and to reproach anyone I so chose, as I do not have this obligation of close bonds of friendship, which most of you have. Though this may be desirable to almost all of you, it is to me a hindrance. Lord Buddha put it "Rahula/fetter". For me friendship is a fetter. Acquaintanceship is not a fetter. As such I only have an obligation to be honest and true only. Incidentally, Herman with reference to your (Post No 5144) I would like to say that at No time did I say I hated Jains, just because I didn't say I loved Jains, doesn't mean I hate them. Herman I am not implying this to you but this was a general presumption by most. Our untrained mind forms preconceived ideas of what it thinks is true. (simple terms-most of us have one track minds). I only asked the Jains to stay away from Buddhist websites, as there was no legitimate reason for them to be there in the first place, unless they wanted to find out more about Buddhism and convert. This was not the reason though, because they went around to many other Buddhist web sites to get Buddhists over to them. I wanted them to stop their Cyber campaign, which they finally did because I hounded them around Cyber land, curtailing all their plans. Some of you are blind and unaware of the world outside DSG. Concerning my validity in the preservation of Lord Buddha's Dhamma, I am answerable only to the Dhamma's influencing values in me, and certainly not to any preconceived notions of Dhamma, you "enlightened" fellow Buddhists concoct and perceive on a daily basis, please refer ( para 3) applies.This was originally meant as a complimentary Post, but I could not pass the chance to take a swipe at every one else on their "strange" practices. With Utmost Respect Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall ------------------------------------------------ Post No 5147 From: Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:21pm Subject: Laundry ((The things that other people say and do, how they expose the little veils of protection we carry around to help us avoid the reality that we all share)) ((They are there, and an acknowledgement that this is what is happening right now is a good response, I reckon.)) ((To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with our laundry being aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection of a current state of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, edit , revise, till we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and discuss it privately with someone we feel comfortable with in our laundry, not really knowing whether it is clean or dirty?)) With lovingkindness Herman ------------------------------------------------ Post No 5149 From: Date: Sat May 5, 2001 11:52pm Subject: Re: Laundry ((We are writing on a forum where kindness, rightview, compassion, patience and other wholesome qualities are revered. This tends to modify our writing so that it conforms to some degree with these beneficial characteristics - even if often our innermost motives are tainted. Sometimes it is the right time to be very direct in a reply, while other times more subtlety helps one to listen better, I think. I find writing on this list affects my speech and thinking also in other arenas. It becomes a little more clear whenever I'm tempted into harsh speech or speech about trivial matters.)) Robert --------------------------------------- Post No 5144 From: Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: Whats in a Name Are you the same Marlon who is not very fond of Jains? (Serious question)If you understand the huge diversity of "heresies" that have arisen over time, and you understand the political and social nature of the seedbed in which these teachings were born, why the special attachment to the loathing of Jains, whatever they may be. Surely there are different views within the Jain community as well? I am not being critical of you , I wish to understand. Kind Regards Herman 5153 From: robert Date: Sun May 6, 2001 7:02pm Subject: Re: Compliment to Herman and Robert Dear Marlon, Thanks for your kind words. Perhaps we can persuade you to prolong your stay on dsg. best wishes robert Marlon McCall wrote: > > Dear Fellow Buddhist Herman and Robert > > Herman, please permit me to compliment you on "The Most" > Inspiring "Original" Post I have ever read (Post No 5147 – Laundry) > You Sir have the ability to see through walls, and eventually all > dimensions (spheres), I am sure. > 5154 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun May 6, 2001 6:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha Dear Wyn & Rob, I agree that this is a very interesting topic and I am somewhat perplexed by the Netthi passage below. I'm really thinking out loud, rather than suggesting I have all the answers here (or any of them!). I aplogise in advance for what is likely to be a rather lengthy post. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Wyn, > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for > kusala and > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for > pretty well > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the > operative word) > preferable to have tanha towards things related to > Dhamma > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For > instance, I > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or > Thailand to > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with > tanha ( some is > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and > this > conditions some detachment and understanding(no > tanha at those > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for > wisdom. I'm not at all sure we can say that tanha for dhamma is possibly preferable to tanha for other objects..;-) Reminds me of a discussion in Bkk last week when one of jon's former colleagues was saying that she knows there is tanha when she is meditating but she feels that tanha to the peace and quiet and dhamma at that time is better than tanha to sensuous objects now....I would just suggest tanha is tanha, of whatever degree, irrespective of the object and never conducive to well-being...interesting and good for further discussion, though. > --- wynn wrote: > > Is all tanha unskilful? I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any suggestion to the contrary. One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala: 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion, gladness and equanimity. Owing to the fulfilment of the meditative development he is reborn in the Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) Still, the tanha is akusala. Another misunderstanding could be because as we know, unless one has become an arahant, the anusaya (latent tendency) of tanha is present even at moments of kusala. > > > > Someone wrote: > > > > "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature, > but if one > > looks at > > bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one > cannot but > > involve > > oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is > understood in an > > essentially pejorative sense. For example, if > bhava-ta.nhaa > > is > > essentially akusala, then making merit for a > better rebirth > > would be > > essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist > spiritual > > life begin!" I would agree that at moments of bhava-ta.nhaa, the citta is akusala. There are bound to be so many skilful and unskilful cittas involved that only the development of awareness will be aware of which are which. There can still be moments of generosity or reflection on wholesome qualities or metta at these times which are kusala. > > > > In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons > ta.nhaa by > > means of > > ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati; > A.ii.146] I think (and I'm no Pali scholar) that this can be translated as 'though dependent on craving, he abandons craving'. It is clear to me, in the following (PTS translation, same ref.), that it is wisdom and not craving that abandons: 'Sister, as to the saying: "This body has come into being through craving, is dependent on craving; craving must be abandoned,"- it was said in this connexion. Herein, sister, a monk hears it said: "They say that such and such a monk, by destroying the asavas, himself in this very life thoroughly comprehending it, realizes the heart's release, the release by wisdom, that is free from the asavas, and having attained it abides therein." then some time later, though dependent on craving, he abandons craving. As to the saying, sister, that body has come into being through craving, is dependent on craving, craving must be abandoned, - whatever was said thus was said in this connexion.' > > > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: > > > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] > and > > unskilful > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, > skilful > > ta.nhaa is for > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of > samsaric > > activities].' [87] Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha is for abandoning by skilful states. Jim mentioned to me that in the Sangiti Sutta (DN XXX111) there is mentioned a 'nirodha-ta.nhaa' which at first he thought was kusala "but the commentary (in Pali) implies a definite 'no' by connecting it with 'uccheda-di.t.thi'." The point I suppose I'm trying to make is that sometimes we can read a few lines in the Tipitaka which don't seem to 'fit', but often there is a problem with the translation or lack of commentary notes. I could be wrong here! Wyn, I appreciate this area for consideration. I haven't had a chance to follow your other link so far, but will do so when I have time. Pls let us know what you think. Best rgds, Sarah 5155 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun May 6, 2001 10:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah) Dear Sarah and Jim, The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I checked the pali and the English translation looks right. There are other examples scattered throughout the texts: A'nguttara Nikaaya : 'he abandons ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa' And the commentary says "Based on the present craving [ta.nhaa] (i. e., desire for becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was the root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth. Now (it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship) is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? — It is unwholesome. — Should it be pursued or not? — It SHOULD be pursued [sevitabbaa]. — Does it drag one into rebirth [pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? — It does not drag one into rebirth." end quote Nina wrote to me about Ang II,146, is only thinking, paravitakka. I will not try to translate here, it is better if a Pali expert continues a little more, what the bhikkhuni is thinking. There is also a paralel: though dependent on food he abnadons food, this body (mental body) is dependent on pride, pride must be abandoned... " And she also said: "sevitabba," this can also be translated as , not necessarily an imperative, it must be pursued, ask Jim. The monk is ripe for arahataship, and it is natural that there is such a thought of, O, that I may attain it. In the K. IV, 231, One hundred and eight, feelings are classified and among the thirty-six there are feelings connected with worldly life and feelings connected with nekkhamma, giving up, even akusala feelings[thus even these akusala feelings are related to nekkhamma].endquote Anything you can give us on the commentary would be much appreciated Jim. We know that the vital conditions for the path are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying it. Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Wyn & Rob, > > I agree that this is a very interesting topic and I am > somewhat perplexed by the Netthi passage below. I'm > really thinking out loud, rather than suggesting I > have all the answers here (or any of them!). I > aplogise in advance for what is likely to be a rather > lengthy post. > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > Dear Wyn, > > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for > > kusala and > > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for > > pretty well > > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the > > operative word) > > preferable to have tanha towards things related to > > Dhamma > > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For > > instance, I > > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or > > Thailand to > > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with > > tanha ( some is > > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and > > this > > conditions some detachment and understanding(no > > tanha at those > > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for > > wisdom. > > I'm not at all sure we can say that tanha for dhamma > is possibly preferable to tanha for other > objects..;-) > Reminds me of a discussion in Bkk last week when one > of jon's former colleagues was saying that she knows > there is tanha when she is meditating but she feels > that tanha to the peace and quiet and dhamma at that > time is better than tanha to sensuous objects now....I > would just suggest tanha is tanha, of whatever degree, > irrespective of the object and never conducive to > well-being...interesting and good for further > discussion, though. > > > --- wynn wrote: > > > Is all tanha unskilful? > > I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest > it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of > craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and > Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any > suggestion to the contrary. > > One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that > tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala: > 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the > Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as > condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion, > gladness and equanimity. Owing to the fulfilment of > the meditative development he is reborn in the > Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) > > Still, the tanha is akusala. > > Another misunderstanding could be because as we know, > unless one has become an arahant, the anusaya (latent > tendency) of tanha is present even at moments of > kusala. > > > > > > Someone wrote: > > > > > > "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature, > > but if one > > > looks at > > > bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one > > cannot but > > > involve > > > oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is > > understood in an > > > essentially pejorative sense. For example, if > > bhava-ta.nhaa > > > is > > > essentially akusala, then making merit for a > > better rebirth > > > would be > > > essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist > > spiritual > > > life begin!" > > I would agree that at moments of bhava-ta.nhaa, the > citta is akusala. There are bound to be so many > skilful and unskilful cittas involved that only the > development of awareness will be aware of which are > which. There can still be moments of generosity or > reflection on wholesome qualities or metta at these > times which are kusala. > > > > > > In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons > > ta.nhaa by > > > means of > > > ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati; > > A.ii.146] > > I think (and I'm no Pali scholar) that this can be > translated as 'though dependent on craving, he > abandons craving'. > > It is clear to me, in the following (PTS translation, > same ref.), that it is wisdom and not craving that > abandons: > > 'Sister, as to the saying: "This body has come into > being through craving, is dependent on craving; > craving must be abandoned,"- it was said in this > connexion. > > Herein, sister, a monk hears it said: "They say that > such and such a monk, by destroying the asavas, > himself in this very life thoroughly comprehending it, > realizes the heart's release, the release by wisdom, > that is free from the asavas, and having attained it > abides therein." then some time later, though > dependent on craving, he abandons craving. As to the > saying, sister, that body has come into being through > craving, is dependent on craving, craving must be > abandoned, - whatever was said thus was said in this > connexion.' > > > > > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: > > > > > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] > > and > > > unskilful > > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, > > skilful > > > ta.nhaa is for > > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of > > samsaric > > > activities].' [87] > > Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following > other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and > describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think > that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha > is for abandoning by skilful states. > > Jim mentioned to me that in the Sangiti Sutta (DN > XXX111) there is mentioned a 'nirodha-ta.nhaa' which > at first he thought was kusala "but the commentary (in > Pali) implies a definite 'no' by connecting it with > 'uccheda-di.t.thi'." > > The point I suppose I'm trying to make is that > sometimes we can read a few lines in the Tipitaka > which don't seem to 'fit', but often there is a > problem with the translation or lack of commentary > notes. I could be wrong here! > > Wyn, I appreciate this area for consideration. I > haven't had a chance to follow your other link so far, > but will do so when I have time. Pls let us know what > you think. > > Best rgds, > Sarah 5156 From: Erik Date: Sun May 6, 2001 10:38pm Subject: Samatha and Vipassana Jonothan, this is a GREAT debate! This is some great stuff, and I once again thank you for providing really useful grist for debate. Jonothan: A general observation first. I am not sure how 'close' to the Tibetan suttas, commentaries and abhidhamma the writing of Master Shantideva is. Does he cite textual references for his statements? I would also be interested to know in approximately what era he is writing. I accept, however, for the purpose of this discussion that he represents the Tibetan position or at least one school of it." Erik: Master Shantideva is one of the most oft-quoted panditas in the Tibetan tradition. He lived from 695-743 AD. His key work "A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life" (Bodhicaryavatara) is a profound treatise on developing the qualities of metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha, as well as patience and Right View. Jonothan: In the Theravadin tradition, samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are separate and distinct forms of kusala, so the concept of vipassana 'endowed with' or 'conjoined with' samatha at the moment of eradication of defilements is not found. Erik: I beg to differ. So, it appears, do the Suttas: Yuganaddha Sutta "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." This provides support for sukkhavipassaka meditation, in the same way the revered Indian commentator Master Asanga gives sukkhavipassaka practice wiggle-room in the "debate" on this in my previous post. Asanga also noted that there can be samatha arising after an instant of insight. But nowhere is there any support for vipassana alone leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly right here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the suttas, because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that the Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha, given they are always treated as a conjoined pair. Also, Jonothan, why are they listed as the "yuganaddha" in the Dammasangani if they can be separated? There is no monad of "vipassana" or "samatha" there, but the "joined pair." To me this leaves little doubt the two together are necessary. Going by the Yuganaddha Sutta, it appears that samatha can act as a prenascent, conascent, mutuality condition for vipassana. It also appears that vipassana can act as a prenascent and mutuality condition for samatha. But for the arising of lokuttara-panna, it appears they are mutuality conditions. Indeed even the title of the Sutta suggests that at some point these two come together when all the path factors are fully developed, and that the two together are mutuality conditions for lokuttara panna. There are some more passages from the Suttas: Kimsuka Sutta "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." *** Akankha Sutta "If a monk would wish, 'May I -- with the ending of mental fermentations -- remain in the fermentation-free release of awareness & release of discernment, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, WHO DOES NOT NEGLECT JHANA, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings." Jonothan, again, this sutta makes it quite explicit that there is no avoiding jhana in the practice of insight. This means that any practice of insight not involving the jhanas will never yield the fruits of the Noble Eightfoled Path. Lord Buddha is not saying "who can skip jhana if they don't feel they have the capacity for it." Lord Buddha is very clearly saying jhana is indispensible. Are there any compelling counterarguments on this point you can present from the Suttas? Going by how explicit the Suttas are on this I'm going to need so very serious convincing to see exactly how the sort of meditation practice you suggest can bring about release--if you are indeed suggesting one can attain lokuttara-nana without samatha. This is quite obviously a life-or-death point, not something to be even the slightest bit wrong about, because it means the difference between liberation and ceaseless rounds in cyclic existence. There is a Zen saying: "to miss by as much as a hair is to miss by the distance of Heaven and Earth." But forget Zen, because the Buddha is explicitly saying this right in the Sutta Pitaka, the teachings every practicing Buddhist, Theravadin, Zen, and Tibetan, accepts as canonical! The Samadhi Sutta adds: "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness...and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment." Jonothan: The apparent departures here are - (a) In the Theravadin tradition, only a moment of vipassana can realize one of the lakkhana (characteristics) of reality or the four noble truths (which are of course truths about realities, not concepts). Such truths cannot be realized at a moment of samatha. Erik: There is no contradiction. Nowhere does what I quoted suggest that anything other than vipassana can bring about direct insight into the characteristics of dhammas. I thought this was clear to the point of leaving no ambiguity. Jonothan: (b) In the Theravadin tradition, jhana refers to cittas which are one-pointed in an object to the point of absorption, and is an attainment resulting from the development of samatha to an extremely high degree. To talk about 'samatha included within a first jhana' seems to imply a different relationship between the 2 terms. Erik: Samatha is either a prenascent or mutuality condition for attaining the jhanas, so there is no contradiction. One cannot speak of jhana apart from samatha. Jonothan: Since samatha and vipassana are different in function, objective and result, the realization of a characteristic of reality cannot be the outcome of the development of samatha (I am assuming here that 'preparation for the first jhana' is a reference to samatha bhavana). Erik: No disagreement. The development of samatha ALONE cannot overcome afflictions. Likewise, the development if vipassana ALONE cannot overcome afflictions if one merely reads what tLord Buddha said in the Suttas. When the two are brought together--as a yuganaddha--then this creates the conditions for lokuttara panna. There can be no lokuttara panna without the union of these two, according again to the Suttas. Erik: So it seems the upshot of this debate to me is that if you assert one can come to lokuttara panna through vipassana alone then there is no support in the Suttas. Again, this is obviously one of THE life-or-death issues regarding samma samadhi and the development of all the relevant path-factors necessary for lokuttara panna. It would seem to me that now the shoe is on the other foot. Meaning, that I believe I have clearly demonstrated, using the sources we both accept as canonical, that there is no vipassana withouth samatha, that the system of meditation I've been trained in more cloesely represents the actual teachings of the Buddha found in the Sutta Pitaka, whereas what I'm interpreting from your statements finds no basis at all in the Suttas: "In the Theravadin tradition, samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are separate and distinct forms of kusala, so the concept of vipassana 'endowed with' or 'conjoined with' samatha at the moment of eradication of defilements is not found." You say you there is no support in the Suttas, yet the passages I quoted directly contradict this and in fact support my contention explicitly. Is there anything in the Suttas you can find that might change how these Suttas are interpreted, such that they will agree with your assertion rather than mine or the teachings of Master Shantideva or Asanga? I look forward to your spirited defense of your tradition! :) :) :) 5157 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun May 6, 2001 10:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana Dear Erik, You write: --- Erik wrote: > nowhere is there any support for vipassana > alone > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly > right > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the > suttas, > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that > the > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha, > given > they are always treated as a conjoined pair. > > ______________________ Venerable gunaratana (sri lanka ) writes: >>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779). Textual evidence that there can be arahats lacking mundane jhana is provided by the Susima Sutta (S.ii, 199-23) together with is commentaries. When the monks in the sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they reply: "We are liberated by wisdom" (pannavimutta kho mayam). The commentary glosses this reply thus: "We are contemplatives, dry-insight meditators, liberated by wisdom alone" (Mayam nijjhanaka sukkhavipassaka pannamatten'eva vimutta ti, SA.ii,117). The commentary also states that the Buddha gave his long disquisition on insight in the sutta "to show the arising of knowledge even without concentration" (vina pi samadhimevam nanuppattidassanattham, SA.ii,117). The subcommentary establishes the point by explaining "even without concentration" to mean "even without concentration previously accomplished reaching the mark of serenity" (samathalakkhanappattam purimasiddhamvina pi samadhin ti), adding that this is said in reference to one who makes insight his vehicle (ST.ii,125). >>>>endquote While the texts are clear that there is always concentration as a path factor they also make it clear that in the case of the sukkhavipassaka this can be khanika samadhi- momentary samadhi. The objects for this type of concentration are the five khandas, the ayatanas and the elements; not the 40 objects leading to normal samatha. At the path moment a special jhana equal in strength to first jhana is attained. robert 5158 From: Howard Date: Sun May 6, 2001 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Metaphorical v. literal (was 'Vajrayana') Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/6/01 4:40:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > I do however see a significant difference between the > Buddha's use of poetic/metaphorical language and ours. > The Buddha knew perfectly of what he spoke, and the > level of understanding of his audience was so much > higher than is ours today. There was literally no > room for misinterpretation. > > I am sure that metaphorical language has a role. > However, when it comes to trying to understand the > differences between, say, samatha and vipassana or > viriya and jivitindriya, literalness and precision are > very useful. > ============================ Definitely. However, just as there was a different audience for the Buddha's metaphors at his time, so is it true for the trechnical language of Abhidhamma. For most readers of Abhidhamma, what is seen is only ungrounded concept put forth with highly technical language. For such a modern, relatively unpracticed and limited audience, a bit of metaphor and poetry can be enlivening and enlightening - at least that is how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5159 From: Erik Date: Mon May 7, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: Samatha and Vipassana --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Erik, > You write: > --- Erik wrote: > > > nowhere is there any support for vipassana > > alone > > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right > > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly > > right > > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the > > suttas, > > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that > > the > > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha, > > given > > they are always treated as a conjoined pair. > > > > ______________________ > Venerable gunaratana (sri lanka ) writes: > > >>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of > attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between > the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in > one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for > insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779). Robert, thanks for the quotes. And I just want to be clear nothing in my post was denying this. In fact, I even included the Tibetan interpretation that allows for samatha to arise AFTER insight (but also conjoined, since insight in this case is a prenascent condition if one goes by the Sutta). What the Visuddhimagga notes is the same as what MAster Asanga notes, namely, that samatha can arise after insight. However, the one point I return to is that even with this momentary jhana (khanika samadhi) that samatha is at least a mutuality condition when all the path-factors are fully developed. > While the texts are clear that there is always concentration as > a path factor they also make it clear that in the case of the > sukkhavipassaka this can be khanika samadhi- momentary samadhi. > The objects for this type of concentration are the five khandas, > the ayatanas and the elements; not the 40 objects leading to > normal samatha. At the path moment a special jhana equal in > strength to first jhana is attained. I am not in disagreement with this. What I am in disagreement with is the idea that vipassana alone, without samatha as a component either before or immediately after insight, brings about magga-nana. The Suttas insdicate that vipassana and samatha have to be conjoined for both vipassana-yanikas and samatha-yanikas--whether or not vipassana serves as the prenascent and support condition for vipassana or vipassana serves as a prenascent and support condition for samatha, still, both are concomitants when all the path-factors are developed to the point of the arising of lokuttara panna. In sum what I see is that the joined pair of samatha & vipassana are the proximate and decisive support conditions for lokuttara panna. 5160 From: Dan Date: Mon May 7, 2001 5:22am Subject: paticca-samuppada [Erik] From Narada's "Manual of Abhidhamma": "According to paticca-samuppada, too, contact conditions feeling. But strictly speaking, there is no reason for the sequence because all these mental states are coexistent. The Atthasalini states--'For of states, arisen in one conscious moment, it is not valid to say that "this" arises first, "that" afterwards. The reason is not because contact is a strong support. Contact is just mentioned first in the order of teaching, but it was also permissable to bring it in thus:--There are feeling and contact, perception and contact, volition and contact,; ther are consciousness and contacct, feeling, perception, volition, inital application of mind. In the first order of teaching, however, contact is mentioned first. Nor is the sequence of words among the remaining states of any special significance.'" 5161 From: selamat Date: Mon May 7, 2001 6:52pm Subject: Visakha puja Dear All, Visakha Puja Greetings, May you ever grow in the Dhamma. with metta, selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor 5162 From: Erik Date: Mon May 7, 2001 7:41pm Subject: Re: paticca-samuppada [Erik] --- Dan wrote: > From Narada's "Manual of Abhidhamma": Thanks, Dan. I had actually looked at the conditionality relationships in the Visuddhimagga for paticca samuppada and didn't get this from my reading, but this is, as you say, a deep topic. 5163 From: robert Date: Mon May 7, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: Visakha puja --- "selamat" wrote: > Dear All, > Visakha Puja Greetings, > May you ever grow in the Dhamma. > > with metta, > selamat rodjali > dhamma study group bogor Thank you Selamat and kindest regards to Dhamma study Group in Indonesia. robert 5164 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 7, 2001 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana Erik --- Erik wrote: > > Jonothan, this is a GREAT debate! This is some great > stuff, and I > once again thank you for providing really useful > grist for debate. I'm glad you're finding it useful, Erik, as I am too. Before I respond on your sutta quotes, a couple of points to clarify. In commenting on the Yuganaddha Sutta you say - > This provides support for sukkhavipassaka > meditation . . . But nowhere is there any > support for vipassana alone > leading to true insight. First, a small nit to pick. 'Sukkhavipassaka', as I have seen it used, is not a form of meditation. It is a term used to describe one who has attained one of the stages of enlightenment without first having attained jhana. Neither this term nor the term samatha-yanika ('one who has tranquillity as vehicle') is intended to import that there is any choice in the matter. No-one can know when or in what circumstances enlightenment can come (nor do I recall any such suggestion in any of the Thera- or Therigathas). Now to my main query. To my understanding, the whole point of the mention of the sukkhavipassaka in the texts (although not always by that name, of course) is to confirm that the path can be attained by the development of insight (vipassana) alone. I'm not sure exactly where our point of departure is here. Any thoughts? > Yuganaddha Sutta > > "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun > -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all > do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? > "There is the case where a monk has developed > insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by > tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are > abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed > tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity > preceded by insight, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As > he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- > his fetters are > abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed > tranquillity in > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in > tandem with > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, pursues > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies > abolished. > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of > insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows > steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In > him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. > As he follows > the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are abandoned, > his latent tendencies abolished. > > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment > of arahantship in > my presence, they all do it by means of one or > another of these four > paths." > > This provides support for sukkhavipassaka > meditation, in the same way > the revered Indian commentator Master Asanga gives > sukkhavipassaka > practice wiggle-room in the "debate" on this in my > previous post. > Asanga also noted that there can be samatha arising > after an instant > of insight. But nowhere is there any support for > vipassana alone > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking > the right > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten > it exatly right > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says > in the suttas, > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages > is that the > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth > samatha, given > they are always treated as a conjoined pair. My other query concerns the following passage - > Also, Jonothan, why are they listed as the > "yuganaddha" in the > Dammasangani if they can be separated? There is no > monad > of "vipassana" or "samatha" there, but the "joined > pair." To me this > leaves little doubt the two together are necessary. > Going by the > Yuganaddha Sutta, it appears that samatha can act as > a prenascent, > conascent, mutuality condition for vipassana. It > also appears that > vipassana can act as a prenascent and mutuality > condition for > samatha. But for the arising of lokuttara-panna, it > appears they are > mutuality conditions. Indeed even the title of the > Sutta suggests > that at some point these two come together when all > the path factors > are fully developed, and that the two together are > mutuality > conditions for lokuttara panna. I would be interested to know your understanding of the 'joined pair'. Does it, for example, refer to samatha and vipassana arising together at the same moment? Or alternately for a period? Are you suggeseting samatha and vipassana cannot be separated? I have noticed previous references in your posts to 'samatha and vipassana' practice, and am wondering how it is conceived. Thanks. Jon 5165 From: Marlon McCall Date: Tue May 8, 2001 3:21am Subject: Visakha Puja – Amara, and Fellow Buddhists Visakha Puja – Amara, and Fellow Buddhists Quote from Phra Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo (1907-1961) Wat Asokaram on May 24, 1956 ""The Buddha is like our father, while the Dhamma is like our mother - - in that it's what gives birth to our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings. At present our father has passed away, leaving only our mother still alive. Both of them have been protecting us, looking after us, so that we've been able to stay free and happy up to the present. We're thus greatly in their debt and should find a way of showing our gratitude in keeping with the fact that we are their children. Ordinarily, when people's parents die, they have to cry and lament, wear black, etc., as a way of showing their mourning. On Visakha Puja -- which is the anniversary of the day on which our father, the Buddha, passed away -- we show our mourning too, but we do it in a different way. Instead of crying, we chant the passages reflecting on the virtues of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Instead of dressing up in black, we take off our pretty jewels, go without perfume and cologne, and dress very simply. As for the comfortable beds and mattresses on which we normally lie, we abstain from them. Instead of eating three or four times a day, as we normally like to do, we cut back to only two times or one. We have to give up our habitual pleasures if we're going to show our mourning for the Buddha -- our father -- in a sincere and genuine way. "" Quote from Phra Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo (1907-1961) A talk at Wat Asokaram on May 24, 1956 Dear Amara, I do hope that this Day will cause you to return to this group. Amara I sincerely hope that you would reconsider your decision. Your decision Amara, was one made in conditions not conducive for the process of decision making, especially when it effects the lives and destiny of Buddhists who have reached such a critical level in their Dhamma studies. You really have no option but to continue with this Dhamma Study Group, it is your Destiny, Duty and your Kamma (karma). Should you fail to listen to your inner voice you will be doing great harm to your own kamma. You will have different views on how I interpret cause an effects of Kamma and almost all events in relation to Dhamma (out of wack ) , but both paths lead to ultimate realization, one of approaching Dhamma Academically, and the other realization by meditation,. You made your path the first way. I made my choice decades ago for the latter. I take no offence in your views about my Buddhist practices, How could a person of your learning have such ice cold views about a fellow Buddhists Meditational approach, I am very puzzled about your approach to Buddhism – Please return and explain yourself to this group. You owe it to all your Dhamma followers. Stop hiding yourself Amara come out and face yourself. I will stay with this group for 1 week from today and if I do not here from you I will delist and take whatever you have said about Dhamma as rubbish from your lips. Amara my friend you have 7 days to reconsider. I beg you return for your own good. Love Always Marlon McCall Ps. I am in NY now and it is still Visakha Puja 3pm, will return to Singapore on the 12 May, Any Buddhist NYorkers for Coffee e-mail me. 5166 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue May 8, 2001 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah) Dear Robert, While checking several versions of the commentary on A ii 146 I noticed a possible error in the following translated section: >Now >(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship) >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? — It is >unwholesome. The answer - unwholesome (akusalaa) is supported by the PTS and the Burmese CSCD versions but not by the Thai Budsir version which has 'kusalaa' as the answer. The footnote in the PTS edition notes that a Mandalay ms. and the Siamese ed. of 1920 reads 'kusalaa'. This is quite interesting as it is a discrepancy that can easily go unnoticed. My gut feeling is that 'kusalaa' is the correct answer. It is contrary to dhamma to state that the unwholesome is to be pursued (sevitabba) as in the reading of the PTS ed. (AA iii 136). We also know that 'ta.nhaa' can be either wholesome or unwholesome from the Nettippakara.na passage (p. 87). I suppose that most of us had been thinking that 'ta.nhaa' is 'lobha' in the paramattha terminology but could it be something else -- 'chanda'?? I also glanced through three layers of commentary on the Nettippakara.na passage regarding the twofold ta.nhaa which have quite a lot to say about it. I didn't study them as there is just too much to take in (1 or 2 pages altogether) without spending a lot of time. This is just to let you know that the comments are there. Best wishes, Jim >Dear Sarah and Jim, >The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I >checked the pali and the English translation looks right. >There are other examples scattered throughout the texts: >A'nguttara Nikaaya : 'he abandons >ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa' >And the commentary says "Based on the present craving [ta.nhaa] >(i. e., desire for >becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was the >root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth. Now >(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship) >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? — It is >unwholesome. — Should it be pursued or not? — It SHOULD be >pursued [sevitabbaa]. — Does it drag one into rebirth >[pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? — It does not drag one into >rebirth." end quote > > >Nina wrote to me about Ang II,146, > > is > only thinking, paravitakka. I will not try to translate here, >it is better if a Pali expert continues a little more, what the >bhikkhuni is thinking. There is also a paralel: though dependent >on food he abnadons food, this body (mental body) is dependent >on pride, pride must be abandoned... " > >And she also said: "sevitabba," this can also be translated as >be >pursued>, not necessarily an imperative, it must be pursued, ask >Jim. >The >monk is ripe for arahataship, and it is natural that there is >such a thought of, O, that I may attain it. >In the K. IV, 231, One hundred and eight, feelings are >classified and among the thirty-six there are feelings connected >with worldly life and feelings connected with nekkhamma, giving >up, even akusala feelings[thus even these akusala feelings are >related to nekkhamma].endquote > >Anything you can give us on the commentary would be much >appreciated Jim. > >We know that the vital conditions for the path >are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying >it. >Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the >moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. >robert 5167 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Tue May 8, 2001 10:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana Dear Jonathan, We must know that in this yuganaddha sutta we have two sukkhavipasaka and two samathayanika.The other sukkhavipsaka is the one who practise jhana and insight until he think he was attaining ariya phala but actually not so-he is doing dhammaupassana which he will finally do it with insight follow by mundane jhana while the other will do citta aupassana.The first is good prove that some sukkhavipassaka will have jhana practice and attainment. It is a thing that have to do with our parami--craving or viewing types.Samathayanika must emerge from jhana due to he have too much nivarana which will defile his clear vision while sukhavipassaka is lacking in insight --emerge from jhana which have to do with doing insight on nama will not help.They need to do insight on rupa. Besides this sukkavipasaka will also mean samathayanika when the com use it to mean sasana later period will not have tevijja,chalabhinna patisambhida monk,some emerge from jhana but have no iddhi will still be consider as sukkhavipassaka. From Teng Kee -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:15:37 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana > Erik > > --- Erik wrote: > > > Jonothan, this is a GREAT debate! This is some great > > stuff, and I > > once again thank you for providing really useful > > grist for debate. > > I'm glad you're finding it useful, Erik, as I am too. > > Before I respond on your sutta quotes, a couple of > points to clarify. > > In commenting on the Yuganaddha Sutta you say - > > > This provides support for sukkhavipassaka > > meditation . . . But nowhere is there any > > support for vipassana alone > > leading to true insight. > > First, a small nit to pick. 'Sukkhavipassaka', as I > have seen it used, is not a form of meditation. It is > a term used to describe one who has attained one of > the stages of enlightenment without first having > attained jhana. Neither this term nor the term > samatha-yanika ('one who has tranquillity as vehicle') > is intended to import that there is any choice in the > matter. No-one can know when or in what circumstances > enlightenment can come (nor do I recall any such > suggestion in any of the Thera- or Therigathas). > > Now to my main query. To my understanding, the whole > point of the mention of the sukkhavipassaka in the > texts (although not always by that name, of course) is > to confirm that the path can be attained by the > development of insight (vipassana) alone. > > I'm not sure exactly where our point of departure is > here. Any thoughts? > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun > > -- declares the > > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all > > do it by means of > > one or another of four paths. Which four? > > "There is the case where a monk has developed > > insight preceded by > > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by > > tranquillity, the > > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > > pursues it. As he > > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > > fetters are > > abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > > > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed > > tranquillity > > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity > > preceded by insight, > > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > > pursues it. As > > he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- > > his fetters are > > abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > > > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed > > tranquillity in > > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in > > tandem with > > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, > > develops it, pursues > > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > > it -- his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies > > abolished. > > > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > > restlessness > > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of > > insight] well under > > control. There comes a time when his mind grows > > steady inwardly, > > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In > > him the path is > > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. > > As he follows > > the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > > are abandoned, > > his latent tendencies abolished. > > > > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment > > of arahantship in > > my presence, they all do it by means of one or > > another of these four > > paths." > > > > This provides support for sukkhavipassaka > > meditation, in the same way > > the revered Indian commentator Master Asanga gives > > sukkhavipassaka > > practice wiggle-room in the "debate" on this in my > > previous post. > > Asanga also noted that there can be samatha arising > > after an instant > > of insight. But nowhere is there any support for > > vipassana alone > > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking > > the right > > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten > > it exatly right > > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says > > in the suttas, > > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages > > is that the > > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth > > samatha, given > > they are always treated as a conjoined pair. > > My other query concerns the following passage - > > > Also, Jonothan, why are they listed as the > > "yuganaddha" in the > > Dammasangani if they can be separated? There is no > > monad > > of "vipassana" or "samatha" there, but the "joined > > pair." To me this > > leaves little doubt the two together are necessary. > > Going by the > > Yuganaddha Sutta, it appears that samatha can act as > > a prenascent, > > conascent, mutuality condition for vipassana. It > > also appears that > > vipassana can act as a prenascent and mutuality > > condition for > > samatha. But for the arising of lokuttara-panna, it > > appears they are > > mutuality conditions. Indeed even the title of the > > Sutta suggests > > that at some point these two come together when all > > the path factors > > are fully developed, and that the two together are > > mutuality > > conditions for lokuttara panna. > > I would be interested to know your understanding of > the 'joined pair'. Does it, for example, refer to > samatha and vipassana arising together at the same > moment? Or alternately for a period? Are you > suggeseting samatha and vipassana cannot be separated? > > > I have noticed previous references in your posts to > 'samatha and vipassana' practice, and am wondering how > it is conceived. Thanks. > > Jon > 5168 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue May 8, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Laundry Dear Herman & Rob --- robert wrote: > Nice one Herman,--- > > Herman wrote: > > > > To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with > our laundry being > > aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection > of a current > state > > of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, > edit , revise, > till > > we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and > discuss it privately > > with someone we feel comfortable with in our > laundry, not really > > knowing whether it is clean or dirty? > > I think we do what we do. This being a Dhamma list > some of it is > kusala (wholesome)- possibly more so than in most > interactions. > For myself even when I write something that looks > kusala there is > quite often a hint or more of akusala. If it sounds > good (or I think > so) for sure that is mana(conceit). If I want others > to like it that > is clinging. These factors are sometimes stronger if > I spend time and > labour over it than with a quick reply. > Nevertheless there are outward ways of interacting > with people. The > monks have their vinaya which help to remind them > also of the cittas > that condition behaviour. We are writing on a forum > where kindness, > rightview, compassion, patience and other wholesome > qualities are > revered. This tends to modify our writing so that it > conforms to some > degree with these beneficial characteristics - even > if often our > innermost motives are tainted. > Sometimes it is the right time to be very direct in > a reply, while > other times more subtlety helps one to listen > better, I think. > I find writing on this list affects my speech and > thinking also in > other arenas. It becomes a little more clear > whenever I'm tempted > into harsh speech or speech about trivial matters. I agree with Marlon: this was a very helpful response, Rob. I don't have much to add. As we know, in 'live' discussions too, someone can say something which is meant kindly, but it can be taken badly and vice versa. In my experience different laundries have different standards and rules. An Australian laundry is run differently from a Chinese laundry and very differently from an Indian laundry with regard to rules, prices, standards, speed and purity (my best experiences are with the Indian ones ;-)) Like Rob says, there are always different intentions involved when we speak and it is the job of awareness to learn to be a little more aware of the differences. Here we have a wonderful opportunity to learn more about the state of mind or 'citta' at different moments, including when we keep quiet. There are so many good reminders in the texts as to what constitutes useful speech. For most of us we 'slip' in this regard many times a day, but as Rob has said, reminders here can encourage a little more care during the rest of the day. This morning I was about to share a piece of gossip with a friend at my gym when there were conditions to reflect on the following sutta and to show some restraint just in time: "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will. "A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people." Anguttara Nikaya V.198 Vaca Sutta A Statement Look forward to any other comments, Sarah p.s Herman, I'm just catching up on an earlier post in which you said (following the Calvinistic background comments), "I find some of the teachings I encounter around these parts to be equally deterministic. In my view, determinism/fatalism renders the effort required to breathe futile". I'm not sure if 'these parts' refers to dsg, but in any case would appreciate it if you'd elaborate as it may lead to some useful discussion for us all. Thanks for your useful contributions ;-)) 5169 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Tue May 8, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha and Vipassana Dear Erik and Robert, You are right although you didn't study enough theravada com and sub com.I have to mention first that Ven Gunaratana wrote in that book the he can't understand for sure about sukkhavipasaka which he said samathayanika should be a easier and smoother way ,why there is a sukkahvipasaka etc.In Visuddhimagga --the path arise in a sukkahavipsaka means the mundane jhana will appear after completing those insight(citta auppasana) while the other one who have jhana but didn't use it as a basic is the sukkhavipassaka who do insight on dhamma follow by insight.This is good enough to answer Ven .Gunaratana.In Susima sutta those arahant said they were free by insight alone can be a few meanings-they maybe those two kinds of sukkhavipassaka -some do insight on citta while some on dhamma which they do have jhana but not reaching any tevijja level etc.But I think they are just the citta anupassana sukkhavipassaka (inferior). People like Nyanamoli change his mind about sukkahvipassaka when he wrote Kuddakapatha com. translation compare to his earlier work in visuddhimagga. It is a very broad topic to talk in here,i will do in my translation of text for pts. Teng Kee -----Original Message----- From: Erik Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 16:03:35 -0000 Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha and Vipassana > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Erik, > > You write: > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > > nowhere is there any support for vipassana > > > alone > > > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right > > > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly > > > right > > > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the > > > suttas, > > > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that > > > the > > > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha, > > > given > > > they are always treated as a conjoined pair. > > > > > > ______________________ > > Venerable gunaratana (sri lanka ) writes: > > > > >>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of > > attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between > > the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in > > one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for > > insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779). > > Robert, thanks for the quotes. And I just want to be clear nothing in > my post was denying this. In fact, I even included the Tibetan > interpretation that allows for samatha to arise AFTER insight (but > also conjoined, since insight in this case is a prenascent condition > if one goes by the Sutta). What the Visuddhimagga notes is the same > as what MAster Asanga notes, namely, that samatha can arise after > insight. However, the one point I return to is that even with this > momentary jhana (khanika samadhi) that samatha is at least a > mutuality condition when all the path-factors are fully developed. > > > While the texts are clear that there is always concentration as > > a path factor they also make it clear that in the case of the > > sukkhavipassaka this can be khanika samadhi- momentary samadhi. > > The objects for this type of concentration are the five khandas, > > the ayatanas and the elements; not the 40 objects leading to > > normal samatha. At the path moment a special jhana equal in > > strength to first jhana is attained. > > I am not in disagreement with this. What I am in disagreement with is > the idea that vipassana alone, without samatha as a component either > before or immediately after insight, brings about magga-nana. > > The Suttas insdicate that vipassana and samatha have to be conjoined > for both vipassana-yanikas and samatha-yanikas--whether or not > vipassana serves as the prenascent and support condition for > vipassana or vipassana serves as a prenascent and support condition > for samatha, still, both are concomitants when all the path-factors > are developed to the point of the arising of lokuttara panna. In sum > what I see is that the joined pair of samatha & vipassana are the > proximate and decisive support conditions for lokuttara panna. > 5170 From: Antony Date: Wed May 9, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa? It always seems to me that Buddha taught many different people different things. I am always interested in the things that Buddha taught laypeople. I am not a monk so the "lay way" is important to me as a basis or foundation for practice. There are sutras that detail practice for Layites i.e. Gihi Sutta here's the link for those interested: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html It might be the case that as you say that tranquility is not neccesary. I would think that could be true. It seems to be that the Buddha used it though. That says to me that it must be useful to a high degree. So to dismiss it because of what we hear or read would be to border on the foolish. There are people who try as they might they cannot reach states of tranquility. (I'm not saying that about you Jon) There are teachings of Buddha where he details the recollections, Buddhagosa uses the sutras in the Vissudhimagga. He says how recollecting develops states of calm etc. But again I think that Buddha taught many ways because many people are moving toward and into the stream. Being the Awakened one he was Buddha knew that whilst one person would dive in from the rocks there would be others wwho needed to paddle first, those who would move inslowly becasue they found the water cold. All roads don't lead to Rome, you have to turn left and right a few times till you find one that does, antony > > the condition of mind developed that does not pre > > dispose itself to > > the arousal of the kilesas? > > A good question. Your question neatly brings into > focus some of the differences between samatha bhavana > (the development of tranquillity) and vipassana > bhavana (the development of insight, or > understanding). > > The development of samatha is all about developing > wholesome states of mind. In order to achieve this to > its highest degree, the mind is trained to the extent > that the kilesas do not arise or, as you have so > neatly put it, the mind is not disposed to the arousal > of the kilesas. This is achieved by attaining one > pointedness of mind on one of the 40 meditation > objects (kammatthana). Only those 40 objects are > suitable for the development of samatha. > > Vipassana, or insight, is the development of awareness > of a characteristic of a reality as appearing at that > moment which, when developed, leads to the > understanding of the true nature of the > characteristics of that reality and of all realities. > There are no particular 'objects' that are suitable > for awareness or understanding - any reality that > appears at a given moment can be the object of > awareness if awareness arises at that moment. > > Coming to your question, while kilesas are subdued in > the development of samatha at its higher levels, they > are not actually eradicated. This means they will > arise again in the future, given the right conditions. > Only the panna (understanding) developed by vipassana > can eradicate kilesa finally. > > Whether the development of tranquillity is in fact > necessary for the development of insight is a matter > of some debate. My own view is that it is not (but > that is a whole other subject for debate!). > > Antony, as a dhamma practitioner of some considerable > experience, you no doubt have some views of your own > on this subject. Do share them! > > Jon 5171 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 9, 2001 2:20pm Subject: notes from Bkk Dear Rob (and Nina), You asked me to share any points that were raised from our recent discussions with Khun Sujin. I didn't make any notes and haven't listened to the tapes, so these will be very brief and some areas I've already touched on. I'm happy to elaborate (according to my understanding). For others, many of these areas resulted from discussions in the fairly recent past on dsg. For anyone new to the list or new to Pali, these notes will be very confusing, but of course you're most welcome to ask for any explanation. Just as a reminder, some Pali terms can be found in the glossary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm 1. The PURPOSE of reading and study of dhamma should be to develop ALL kinds of kusala at this moment, otherwise it's just book study. We discussed at length the importance of understanding cittas now, whether they are kusala or akusala. 2. SAMATHA development. The importance of knowing the difference between a moment of samatha and the development of samatha. Samatha is not developed because of an intention to have it or wish to have it develop by, for example, going to view a corpse. It is now if we understand the difference between kusala and akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we open a sutta about metta with the intention to have metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the understanding is always the key, so there can be understanding of metta when it arises naturally by conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed, not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object like breath for development. There was also a lot more discussion about breath as object of samatha. 3. HINDRANCE to development of satipatthana. The only hindrance is the last one, ignorance. The other hindrances are to the development of samatha only. 4. FEELINGS The following disorders in the Sivaka Sutta (re-quoted here) are indirect conditions or causes for kamma to result in bodily feelings... 'Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by change of climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmins." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." 'end quote 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa is a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these be explained when kamma can cause only the kammaja-rupa? KS's answer was that these fall under cakkhuppasada rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja rupa. Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa. 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own'). Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take them for being something as wrong view has not been eradicated. 7. DECLINE of Buddhism. Teng raised the last sutta in SamNik, Kassapa section, in which the 5th reason for decline is the lack of achievement of jhanas. KS said that this would be an indication/cause of decline because it would show a lack of wholesome states being developed. (It sounds descriptive rather than prescriptive to me). 8. SABHAVA. Most realities have sabhava (essence) but some rupas are abhava. The highly developed panna can know the different stages of rupa: the first moment, the succession, the decline and the death. These lakhana (characteristics) are abhava. Also some discussion about the trilakhana which are different characterisitcs of the same reality. As an example of why one characterisitic is noticed and not another, we looked at a glass half-filled with pink juice. One could either look at the liquid or the top clear part depending on conditions. 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why not?" 10. VIPAKA now. We can't really say it's better or not better to experience vipaka now, but what is being experienced or what vipaka cittas arise now will depend on conditions. 11. VIRIYA with akusala cittas..there can be very strong viriya with these cittas too, for example with lobha. Cittas which viriya arises with as discussed including at moments of sloth and torpor. 12. MEDITATION. Again it is imporatant to understand the cittas and the purpose. is there an idea to select an object or to develop kusala with lobha? 13. SURVEY OF PARAMATHA DHAMMAS, translated by Nina VG http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Jon read parts out loud and these led to useful discussions. KS has asked Jon to make a recording of the whole book with discussions between us at the end of each section!! Yet another project for retirement! Perhaps others who were present (Jon, Betty, Ivan, Sukin) may add to these notes. Sarah 5172 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 9, 2001 3:04pm Subject: Abhidammatha Sangaha (Manual of Abhid) Dear Howard & Dan, The quiet spell is giving me a chance to return to some of your earlier posts. Howard, you said you were working through Bodhi's AS (Manual of Abhidhamma) and that you'd like to ask questions. Please go ahead and no need to restrict them. I hasten to add that you can probably give the answers as well as anyone (certainly as well as me in most cases), but I'm sure they'll open up useful discussions. Dan, you mentioned an apparent contradiction in Narada's comm. on AS when he writes 'where there are thina and middha (sloth & torpor) there is no viriya.' As we now all agree, there is viriya accompanying these cetasikas (mental factors), but in the Bodhi translation (p84) it says they are 'opposed to energy (viriya)'. Perhaps this is what he is referring to. I take this viriya to be kusala viriya, how about you? 'Sloth is identified as sickness of consciousness (cittagelanna), torpor as sickness of the mental factors (kayagelanna).' Btw I do agree with what you said about some cittas and actions being more 'vigorous'and viriya being more prominent at these times. 'Just as a strong reinforcement enables the king's army to defeat the enemy, so energy upholds and supports all the associated states and does not allow them to recede'.(p82) Sarah Howard, I think I responded on the jivitindriya and viriya question (?adequately)..just seen the phassa one, which'll have to be next time. 5173 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 9, 2001 3:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana'] Hi Howard & friends, you quoted from Goenka's website here: > > "Any moment in which one does > > not generate a > > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the > surface of > > the mind, and > > along with it a sensation will start within the > body. If one > > remains > > equanimous, it passes away and another old > reaction arises in > > its place. One > > continues to remain equanimous to physical > sensations and the > > old sakhara > > continue to arise and pass away, one after > another. If out of > > ignorance one > > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the > sankhara, > > multiplies one's > > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not > react to > > sensations, then one > > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery > is > > eradicated. The entire > > path is a way to come out of misery. By > practising, you will > > find that you > > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are > automatically > > untied. > > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in > which all > > sankhara leading to > > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have > been > > eradicated: the stage of > > total liberation, full enlightenment. In addition to the points Rob raised and Kom's question, I'd also like to know what the purpose of attending just to one doorway is when the Buddha repeatedly taught us about 6 doorways? Is this a kind of selection, with an idea of a 'self' that can select and determine to be equanimous to particular realities at this moment? Actually I talked to Goenka himself about these very questions 25yrs ago and his response at that time was something like it being too difficult for beginners to be aware of all realities in daily life when they start, so that this is the way (i.e. focusing on sensations) to get started so that later there can be awareness of any reality in daily life. The difficulty is, as I see it of course, that whatever reality through whatever doorway is appearing now is conditioned already and cannot be selected. the practice is to begin to understand and be aware of one reality at a time without selecting place, time and object. As I see it, this is the practice in the beginning, middle and end. Look forward to any further comments or disagreements! I hasten to add that I think there may be many other benefits, for example health benefits, from the practice Mr Goenka teaches. Best rgds, Sarah 5174 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 9, 2001 5:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah) dear Jim. Thanks for all this. As usual very helpful. But it still hasn't resolved the question totally. Wyn posted this question on another forum and a knowledgeable memeber said that he thought that tanha in this case might not have the precise meaning that it does in the abhidhamma and could mean effort or chanda. Could be. I would love to know what the commenatry and tika that you mentioned to the netti say.(but don't feel compelled to look into it - already you help much) thanks robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert, > > While checking several versions of the commentary on A ii 146 > I noticed a > possible error in the following translated section: > > >Now > >(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for > Arahantship) > >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? — It is > >unwholesome. > > The answer - unwholesome (akusalaa) is supported by the PTS > and the > Burmese CSCD versions but not by the Thai Budsir version which > has > 'kusalaa' as the answer. The footnote in the PTS edition notes > that a > Mandalay ms. and the Siamese ed. of 1920 reads 'kusalaa'. This > is quite > interesting as it is a discrepancy that can easily go > unnoticed. My gut > feeling is that 'kusalaa' is the correct answer. It is > contrary to dhamma to > state that the unwholesome is to be pursued (sevitabba) as in > the reading of > the PTS ed. (AA iii 136). We also know that 'ta.nhaa' can be > either > wholesome or unwholesome from the Nettippakara.na passage (p. > 87). > > I suppose that most of us had been thinking that 'ta.nhaa' is > 'lobha' in the > paramattha terminology but could it be something else -- > 'chanda'?? > > I also glanced through three layers of commentary on the > Nettippakara.na > passage regarding the twofold ta.nhaa which have quite a lot > to say about > it. I didn't study them as there is just too much to take in > (1 or 2 pages > altogether) without spending a lot of time. This is just to > let you know > that the comments are there. > > Best wishes, > > Jim > > >Dear Sarah and Jim, > >The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I > >checked the pali and the English translation looks right. > >There are other examples scattered throughout the texts: > >A'nguttara Nikaaya : 'he abandons > >ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa' > >And the commentary says "Based on the present craving > [ta.nhaa] > >(i. e., desire for > >becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was > the > >root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth. > Now > >(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for > Arahantship) > >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? — It is > >unwholesome. — Should it be pursued or not? — It SHOULD be > >pursued [sevitabbaa]. — Does it drag one into rebirth > >[pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? — It does not drag one > into > >rebirth." end quote > > > > > >Nina wrote to me about Ang II,146, > > > > is > > only thinking, paravitakka. I will not try to translate > here, > >it is better if a Pali expert continues a little more, what > the > >bhikkhuni is thinking. There is also a paralel: though > dependent > >on food he abnadons food, this body (mental body) is > dependent > >on pride, pride must be abandoned... " > > > >And she also said: "sevitabba," this can also be translated > as > > >be > >pursued>, not necessarily an imperative, it must be pursued, > ask > >Jim. > >The > >monk is ripe for arahataship, and it is natural that there is > >such a thought of, O, that I may attain it. > >In the K. IV, 231, One hundred and eight, feelings are > >classified and among the thirty-six there are feelings > connected > >with worldly life and feelings connected with nekkhamma, > giving > >up, even akusala feelings[thus even these akusala feelings > are > >related to nekkhamma].endquote > > > >Anything you can give us on the commentary would be much > >appreciated Jim. > > > >We know that the vital conditions for the path > >are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying > >it. > >Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but > the > >moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. > >robert 5175 From: Erik Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:22pm Subject: Kusala etc. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: Sarah, thanks for this post. I always appreciate these clarifications. And, a couple of nits to pick (since that seems to be the thing to do around here :) > 2. SAMATHA development. The importance of knowing the > difference between a moment of samatha and the > development of samatha. Samatha is not developed > because of an intention to have it or wish to have it > develop by, for example, going to view a corpse. It is > now if we understand the difference between kusala and > akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we > open a sutta about metta with the intention to have > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the > understanding is always the key, so there can be > understanding of metta when it arises naturally by > conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed, > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object > like breath for development. There was also a lot > more discussion about breath as object of samatha. I have to disagree with this. Mere attention to the breath is sufficient to engender samatha--if one can maintain that attention properly. All one needs to do is remain concentrated on the breath long enough, without too much tension, gently bringing the mind back again and again if it wanders, and it just works (assuming one has pacified really coarse junk through sila prior to this). Eventually things settle, and awareness becomes concentrated. This serves as the foundation for the jhanas. Once samatha is established this way then upcara is nearly automatic, because the mind "unifies" in concentration. It is "as easy as falling off a log" (to quote a Tibetan commentator) if done this way. > 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by > 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This > refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own'). > Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take > them for being something as wrong view has not been > eradicated. I asssume this is referring to the line in the Satipatthana Sutta where it says: "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself." If this is so, you may also be interested in Ven U Silananda's take on "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness," where he notes that the "externally" part refers to noticing this same characteristics when the yogi is contemplating the bodies of others. This doesn't disagree with what you said, but I think clarifies it some. I've seen this same interpretation Ven. U Silananda used in more than one place. What I got from this is that the point is to see all dhammas as anatta by investigating all their characteristics, whether in what one typically associates with a "self" as well as apparently external phenomena one associates with "other," to come to see that both internal and external partake of the same nature of being empty of own-being. > 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta > cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why > not?" I can think of a reason. The very act of cognizing is conditioned, because there is always subject and object. Being conditioned, there is no way citta can apprehend something without marks, like Nibbana. The very act of "marking" it brings it into the realm of the conditioned. Just an observation, and am curious if there are any explanations or any commentaries that address this point. I haven't seen it addressed, and it's been bugging me for a long time now. > 10. VIPAKA now. We can't really say it's better or not > better to experience vipaka now, but what is being > experienced or what vipaka cittas arise now will > depend on conditions. I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala vipaka as quickly as possible, because it vipaka grows in power (and conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it remains untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if left uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very diligently to purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its arising. Lama Atisha, the great Indian pandita and revered lineage master in my school, used to carry around a small stupa, and each time he let go of mindfulness or inadvertently damaged a precept, he would unpack his little stupa no matter where he was, travelling, whatever, and do many prostrations for purification on the spot. In this way when even the smallest thought of anger or grasping or wrong view arises, it should be purified on the spot in whatever way one finds most suitable. If it is allowed to remain unpurified, then it grows in strenght and serves as the condition for the arising of many more similar akusala states. Speaking of Kusala, much has been said here about kusala, but I would like to add one thought here. Kusala should be just as big a priority as lokuttara panna, for a number of reasons. Without sila, there is no concentration, for example. Too many nivaranas present. Also, another thing to consider. The kusala and akusala cittas are mutually exclusive. Menaing, one cannot simultaneously have both kusala and akusala citta arising at the same moment. It's a truly all-or-nothing reality. Another fact is that kusala is much more difficult to have than akusala. These is Khun Sujim's own words. Therefore, the odds of us having kusala cittas at any moment are slim to none. What does this mean? Theat most of the cittas arising in a vithi are akusala. This is NO GOOD! Ceratinly no good for the arising of supramundane wisdom, which requires enormous stocks of merit (or at least to be free from all the hindrances to a very highly polished degree). My opinion would be that worrying a lot about lokuttarra panna--if there is not skill enough for at least upcara samadhi--is a waste of time other than for getting rid of the grossest intellectual flavors of miccha-ditthi (which of course is always beneficial). To do emphasize wisdom at the expanse of merit (or vice versa) is like trying to fly with a broken wing. The Buddha's formualation, in order, consists of dana, sila, samadhi, panna. Until the sila part is well-established, there is no hope of samadhi. Likewise, without samadhi, there is no hope of concentrating the mind enough to thoroughly penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas. Thoughts, comments? As always, appreciate the wonderful dialogues here. 5176 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 9, 2001 8:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc. --- Erik wrote: > > > 10. VIPAKA now. We can't really say it's better or not > > better to experience vipaka now, but what is being > > experienced or what vipaka cittas arise now will > > depend on conditions. > > I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala > vipaka > as quickly as possible, because it vipaka grows in power (and > conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it > remains > untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if > left > uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very > diligently to > purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its > arising. > > Lama Atisha, the great Indian pandita and revered lineage > master in > my school, used to carry around a small stupa, and each time > he let > go of mindfulness or inadvertently damaged a precept, he would > unpack > his little stupa no matter where he was, travelling, whatever, > and do > many prostrations for purification on the spot. In this way > when even > the smallest thought of anger or grasping or wrong view > arises, it > should be purified on the spot in whatever way one finds most > suitable. If it is allowed to remain unpurified, then it grows > in > strenght and serves as the condition for the arising of many > more > similar akusala states. > > Speaking of Kusala, much has been said here about kusala, but > I would > like to add one thought here. Kusala should be just as big a > priority > as lokuttara panna, for a number of reasons. Without sila, > there is > no concentration, for example. Too many nivaranas present. > Also, > another thing to consider. The kusala and akusala cittas are > mutually > exclusive. Menaing, one cannot simultaneously have both kusala > and > akusala citta arising at the same moment. It's a truly > all-or-nothing > reality. > > Another fact is that kusala is much more difficult to have > than > akusala. These is Khun Sujim's own words. Therefore, the odds > of us > having kusala cittas at any moment are slim to none. What does > this > mean? Theat most of the cittas arising in a vithi are akusala. > This > is NO GOOD! Ceratinly no good for the arising of supramundane > wisdom, > which requires enormous stocks of merit (or at least to be > free from > all the hindrances to a very highly polished degree). > > My opinion would be that worrying a lot about lokuttarra > panna--if > there is not skill enough for at least upcara samadhi--is a > waste of > time other than for getting rid of the grossest intellectual > flavors > of miccha-ditthi (which of course is always beneficial). To do > > emphasize wisdom at the expanse of merit (or vice versa) is > like > trying to fly with a broken wing. The Buddha's formualation, > in > order, consists of dana, sila, samadhi, panna. Until the sila > part is > well-established, there is no hope of samadhi. Likewise, > without > samadhi, there is no hope of concentrating the mind enough to > thoroughly penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas. > > ___________________ Firstly Erik, you seem to be mistaking vipaka (the result of kamma) for kamma. Vipaka is not of the jati of kusala or akusala(although we talk about akusala and kusala results). Akusala or kusala is only perfomed in later moments after vipaka arises. Leaving that aside, do you know the phrase silabata-upadana? This is clinging to rule and ritual and is a form of wrong view. it can be gross or very subtle. In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha recounts that many of those who have excellent sila and can attain even the sublime arupa jhanas have wrong view. Even one of his first teachers could attain and master all eight mundane jhanas and believed(and stated ) that he was enlightened - but wasn't. When in thailand I used to put my hands together whenever we passed a temple, and in thailand that is every 2 minutes. Khun duang duen(secreatry of the foundation) asked me why and I said because it serves as a reminder of the merit of the buddha etc. And in fact this is true. However, it all depends on the understanding at the moment as to the degree of kusala. For one it can be simply respect but without any understanding of the qualities of the Buddha - (They think of buddha in a superstitious way). For another they think of the qualities so the kusala is more refined. Another is aware of feeling or seeing or thinking even while paying respects- and this is satipatthana, the real resort of followers of buddha. No one can know by looking at someone, what cittas are arising at such moments - and even the person doing so may not be aware of subtle clinging such as hoping for good results or slight lobha for awareness. Or conceit about ones 'merit'. Does this mean don't do it? No but I use it to demonstrate why satipatthana is helpful in all situations; helpful because it reduces self, and that is the way out of samsara. We can purify sila or samatha to the nth degree but it will still be tainted by wrongview if satipatthana is not developed in conjunction with it. In the samyutta nikaya(which I don't have handy) there are several suttas where it says that one should understand the six bases. One can focus on breathing but I would suggest they also learn to understand seeing and colour if they have time off from their concentration exercises. robert 5177 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 9, 2001 8:52pm Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa? Antony --- Antony wrote: > It always seems to me that Buddha taught many different people > different things. I'm sure this is exactly right. And it is often not apparent from a casual reading of a sutta who the listeners were or what their particular circumstances might have been. Yet this is all necessary stuff if we are to understand the sutta properly. For example, if a sutta about samatha was addressed to monks who were already well established in samatha, or in mindfulness (or both), that would have a bearing on how we 'read' that teaching. That is why an fairly extensive knowledge of the suttas (and the other pitakas) is necessary in order to understand any part of the teachings. > It might be the case that as you say that tranquility is not > neccesary. I would think that could be true. It seems to be that the > Buddha used it though. That says to me that it must be useful to a > high degree. That is indeed true. Samatha (tranquillity) is kusala of a very high degree, and is of course to be encouraged. But it should not be confused with satipatthana or vipassana. And like satipatthana and vipassana, it is not easy to understand and therefore not easy to develop. Samatha cannot be developed without a precise understanding of whether the citta (moment of consciousness) is kusala or akusala. One who develops satipatthana will also be able to develop samatha. > There are teachings of Buddha where he details the recollections, > Buddhagosa uses the sutras in the Vissudhimagga. In the introductory part of Visuddhimagga there is an interesting passage which shows just how necessary it is to have a proper command of the whole teachings in order to see clearly the message that the Buddha was trying to deliver, and how easy it would be to misconstrue what is being said. At Vis.I,6 it says - "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, according as it is said: `Formations are all impermanent: `When he sees thus with understanding `And turns away from what is ill, `That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277). And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said: `He is near unto nibbana `In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it is said: `By deeds, vision and righteousness, `By virtue, the sublimest life – `By these are mortals purified, `And not by lineage and wealth' (M.iii,262) And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: `He who is possessed of constant virtue, `Has understanding, and is concentrated, `Is strenuous and diligent as well, `Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i, 53). And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the right efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two." [ends] It would be easy, taking any one of those quotes on its own, to come away with a wrong idea of the teaching. Nothing is as straightforward as it seems! Jon PS Would like to discuss your Gihi Sutta al 5178 From: Howard Date: Wed May 9, 2001 5:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/9/01 2:21:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > 3. HINDRANCE to development of satipatthana. The only > hindrance is the last one, ignorance. The other > hindrances are to the development of samatha only. > > > 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta > cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why > not?" > ================================== The above two strike me as less than optimal answers. # 9 simply offers no explanation. Without some detailed clarification, # 3 appears to be simply false. Sorry to be a nay-sayer, but this is how I see these. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5179 From: Joyce Short Date: Wed May 9, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc. >> I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala >> vipaka >> as quickly as possible, Who? is unloading akusala vipaka as quickly as possible? >> because it vipaka grows in power (and >> conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it >> remains >> untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if >> left >> uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very >> diligently to >> purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its >> arising. Who? is working diligently, becoming aware of its arising etc. And what is arising whatever surely just arises, endures and then dissolves on its own accord? Who is placing a value judgment on any arising and when is this judgment noted. Surely all this is occurring after the event? Is this noted? How is one noting "conceptuality" without clinging? One Tibetan Rinpoche pointed out to me that all arisings when recognized,(moment of contact) are an expression of intrinsic nature - its energy, purity and intelligence. In this recognition, then there cannot be any duality, any "I" and "mine", the essential akusala. Is there something apart from consciousness? (awareness) Mind can create an object or structure called meditator who then notes other objects -but any objects noted are the energetic expression of consciousness noted by knowing and not other than the meditator construct. Sorry, not a scholar, don't know Pali or Sanskrit. Metta, Joyce 5180 From: Erik Date: Wed May 9, 2001 10:24pm Subject: Re: Kusala etc. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Firstly Erik, you seem to be mistaking vipaka (the result of > kamma) for kamma. Vipaka is not of the jati of kusala or > akusala(although we talk about akusala and kusala results). > Akusala or kusala is only perfomed in later moments after vipaka > arises. Hi Robert, I may be an Abhidhamma beginner, but cut me a little slack! I have at least learned this basic distinction! :) It seems difficult to make such a mistake if one knows the definition of a vipakacitta. Anyway, what I was trying to convey here is that visuddhi is a necessary for awakening. > Leaving that aside, do you know the phrase silabata-upadana? > This is clinging to rule and ritual and is a form of wrong view. > it can be gross or very subtle. My understanding of silabattaparamasa is that it is abandoned through clear knowing of the activities that lead to release. At this point one discards the precepts because they've become thoroughly established in one's own being. Sila at this point becomes spontaneous and effortless, and there isn't even the thought of violating at minimum the panca-sila. There is also no thought of following some codified set of precepts, because those precepts are thoroughly embodied. That is what it means to have this fetter terminated as I understand it. > In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha recounts that many of those > who have excellent sila and can attain even the sublime arupa > jhanas have wrong view. Of course. This has never been a point of contention. The point of contention is the degree of emphasis placed on kusala. I would say (and this is also what I've been learned in my own studies) that the two--sila & panna--have to work in tandem, like "two wings on a bird." Also, it is important to know the appropriate order for bhavana. One doesn't just jump into insight (unless one is a true spiritual savant with strong accumulations of panna from before). One first cultivates sila. There is no other way, because without sila, no pacification of the hindrances. No pacification, no concentration. No concentration, no insight. No insight, no release. This progression is quite straightforward. Also, again, unless there is conscious development of kusala, it simply won't have occasion to arise. Given the only alternative to this is the arising of akusala, which is preferable? Are a 1,000,000,000 moments of akusala preferable to 999,000,000 akusala and 1,000,000 kusala? Which reminds me, what is the specific meditation practice you presently do in this regard? I think this may help clarify some. Does it involve sitting meditation, focusing on the body in & of itself, for example? I am trying to understand the "other side" so to speak, because I am not clear on the meditation practices being taught here other than checking the arising and passing of Dhammas in daily life, without any sitting meditation at all. > Even one of his first teachers could > attain and master all eight mundane jhanas and believed(and > stated ) that he was enlightened - but wasn't. > When in thailand I used to put my hands together whenever we > passed a temple, and in thailand that is every 2 minutes. Khun > duang duen(secreatry of the foundation) asked me why and I said > because it serves as a reminder of the merit of the buddha etc. > And in fact this is true. However, it all depends on the > understanding at the moment as to the degree of kusala. For one > it can be simply respect but without any understanding of the > qualities of the Buddha - (They think of buddha in a > superstitious way). For another they think of the qualities so > the kusala is more refined. Another is aware of feeling or > seeing or thinking even while paying respects- and this is > satipatthana, the real resort of followers of buddha. No one can > know by looking at someone, what cittas are arising at such > moments - and even the person doing so may not be aware of > subtle clinging such as hoping for good results or slight lobha > for awareness. Or conceit about ones 'merit'. > Does this mean don't do it? No but I use it to demonstrate why > satipatthana is helpful in all situations; helpful because it > reduces self, and that is the way out of samsara. We can purify > sila or samatha to the nth degree but it will still be tainted > by wrongview if satipatthana is not developed in conjunction > with it. > In the samyutta nikaya(which I don't have handy) there are > several suttas where it says that one should understand the six > bases. One can focus on breathing but I would suggest they also > learn to understand seeing and colour if they have time off from > their concentration exercises. Robert, I agree with everything you say here, and I accept it in light of the need to always maintain the balance of the Middle Way, to avoid going to extremes. For this reason I appreciate these reminders. On the other hand, if one reads these reminders about motivation and then thinks one can'd possibly practice kusala well or one can do away with cultivating kusala and just focus on insight, then I see a very big problem. At least it's a big problem if the intention is getting out of samsara. I just want to be clear and say that I am responding to what I perceive as a lack of emphasis here in dsg on the indispensible practice of developing kusala states of mind (and samatha and jhanas, for that matter). I know this has been covered before, and I know no one is denying kusala is important. This is more a matter of emphasis, as I see it. This is one of the problems I have had with Zen as well. I have seen the fruits of this emphasis in the disturbing statements of certain Japanase Zen masters. Brian Victoria's "Zen at War" shows just how perilous the extreme of "wisdom" can be when divorced from sila, and especially from metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha. Great stuff, look forward to more! E. 5181 From: Erik Date: Wed May 9, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: Kusala etc. --- "Joyce Short" wrote: > Who? is working diligently, becoming aware of its arising etc. Who indeed? And yet, there is the experience of dukkha. > And what is > arising whatever surely just arises, endures and then dissolves on its own > accord? Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha. > Who is placing a value judgment on any arising and when is this > judgment noted. Surely all this is occurring after the event? Is this > noted? How is one noting "conceptuality" without clinging? Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha. > One Tibetan Rinpoche pointed out to me that all arisings when > recognized,(moment of contact) are an expression of intrinsic nature - its > energy, purity and intelligence. Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha. > In this recognition, then there cannot be > any duality, any "I" and "mine", the essential akusala. Indeed. In Nibbana there is no duality (how can duality exist even as a CONCEPT in that which lacks conditions?), nor dukkha. And then there is duality and dukkha all over again, a few mind-moments later (unless this represents the attainment of the fruit of an arahat). > Is there something > apart from consciousness? (awareness) Mind can create an object or structure > called meditator who then notes other objects -but any objects noted are the > energetic expression of consciousness noted by knowing and not other than > the meditator construct. Someone trained in the Madhyamika-Prasangika system would say that nothing arises apart from its parts, causes, or the mind labeling it. Joyce, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, no matter which tradition we deal with, we have to cultivate kusala. There is no alternative to this. No amount of "self liberating through recognizing" can do away with the fact that to even get to this point requires big stocks of merit. That is why there are practices like ngondro (Tibetan dhutanga) to perform, either 100,000 prostrations, or whatever, to prepare the mind to bring about the sort of recognition of the essential nature of dhammas you mention. 5182 From: Num Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk Hi Sarah, I really appreciate your mail. Thank you for always has a follow-up answer and explanation. I probably have to think about it more and more, but I will try to respond and clarify something which is still not clear to me. <<< "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by change of climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmins." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." >>> So you mean not every bodily phenomenon is a result of kamma. Anyhow, every pasada-rupa is a kammaja-rupa. So kamma has somewhat indirect role that it conditions the pasada-rupa to continuously arise. <<<< 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa is a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin color etc, good-looking appearance..how can these be explained when kamma can cause only the kammaja-rupa? KS's answer was that these fall under cakkhuppasada rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja rupa. Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa. >>>> I am not clear particularly about this one. I can imagine that cakkhu-pasada as well as other pasada-rupa are a result of kamma. Cakku-pasada-rupa mean a visual sense organ not a outside visible object, though. <<<< 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own'). Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take them for being something as wrong view has not been eradicated. >>>> So it does not mean anohet's another person's citta or thought and feeling. It still means our own mental processes which think of external object?? What is the internal object? I haven't looked up for a search for Cheto-pariya-nanna, ability to know and read another person's mind. I just got my notebook back, so I can search it on my Thai Tipitaka CDrom. 5183 From: Howard Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. Hi, Erik (and Joyce) - In a message dated 5/9/01 10:50:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Erik writes: > Someone trained in the Madhyamika-Prasangika system would say that > nothing arises apart from its parts, causes, or the mind labeling it. > ================================ As I understand it, all samsaric experience originates at the vortex of vi~n~nana/namarupa, wherein there is the discerning of objects. So even when there is no labelling (yet), no naming or conceptualizing - no sa~n~na, there is no object of discernment without the citta which discerns it - without the action of discerning. Thus all things which can be considered as objects are objects of discernment (at least conditionally in the sense that "when this is discerned then that is - or will be - discerned"). I am not disagreeing with your third item; I'm just questioning the emphasis on labelling there. As far as dependence on parts, that, of course, goes all the way back to the chariot example, and constitutes another instance of the faithfulness of your school to the original teachings. Obviously, dependence on causes is basic as well. Likewise for dependence on mind, as can be seen, for example, in the Dhammapada. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5184 From: Joyce Short Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. > Joyce, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, no matter which > tradition we deal with, we have to cultivate kusala. No dis-agreement here - although perhaps it is wisdom to ask who is cultivating wisdom at the same time cultivation occurs, otherwise there is just continuing "akusala" (identification) not noted -(smile). I have met practitioners who have done their 100,000's and still remain quite attached to their accomplishment and the notion that there was someone "doing" the practice -having forgotten about "absolute" bodhicitta in the relative, to say nothing of the fact that during the practice no mindfulness was at all present. And those vipassana meditators who for a time, fiercely maintain separate "objectivity" through noting and labelling separate "objects". I have been basically a vipassana practitioner - with some Tibetan practice - and so I appreciate your kind response on what is essentially a "dhamma" list. I guess it comes down to "view". I think it is more like, liberation of hearing in hearing, liberation of seeing in seeing etc -ie. "in hearing there is only hearing, in seeing there is only seeing, in thinking there is only thinking" - not-two -not "I" think, "I" see...and so forth - meditation occurs....sometimes in spite of the 'meditator' (smile) In all recognition - there is recognition of not-self, impermanence and suffering ( from grasping mind) - all though one can also note energy, clarity and intrinsic wisdom or intelligence in non-grasping. Metta, Joyce There is no > alternative to this. No amount of "self liberating through > recognizing" can do away with the fact that to even get to this point > requires big stocks of merit. That is why there are practices like > ngondro (Tibetan dhutanga) to perform, either 100,000 prostrations, > or whatever, to prepare the mind to bring about the sort of > recognition of the essential nature of dhammas you mention. > 5185 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. --- Erik wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > Firstly Erik, you seem to be mistaking vipaka (the result of > > kamma) for kamma. Vipaka is not of the jati of kusala or > > akusala(although we talk about akusala and kusala results). > > Akusala or kusala is only perfomed in later moments after > vipaka > > arises. > > Hi Robert, > > I may be an Abhidhamma beginner, but cut me a little slack! I > have at > least learned this basic distinction! :) It seems difficult to > make > such a mistake if one knows the definition of a vipakacitta. > Anyway, > what I was trying to convey here is that visuddhi is a > necessary for > awakening. This is what you wrote, Erik. >ERIK: I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala > vipaka > as quickly as possible, because it vipaka grows in power (and > conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it > remains > untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if > left > uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very > diligently to > purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its > arising. > Lama Atisha, the great Indian pandita and revered lineage > master in > my school, used to carry around a small stupa, and each time > he let > go of mindfulness or inadvertently damaged a precept, he would > unpack > his little stupa no matter where he was, travelling, whatever, > and do > many prostrations for purification on the spot. _______________________________________ How does vipaka condition more of the same type? How can you treat vipaka? we don't even know which life the kamma that conditioned the vipaka was - or what it was. You refer to lama atisha but surely what he is doing is related to akusala citta or kusala citta - not vipaka citta? he sees that moments with akusala arise so he tries to remind himself of kusala. I don't see where 'treating vipaka' comes in? _____________ > > > Leaving that aside, do you know the phrase silabata-upadana? > > This is clinging to rule and ritual and is a form of wrong > view. > > it can be gross or very subtle. > > My understanding of silabattaparamasa is that it is abandoned > through > clear knowing of the activities that lead to release. At this > point > one discards the precepts because they've become thoroughly > established in one's own being. Sila at this point becomes > spontaneous and effortless, and there isn't even the thought > of > violating at minimum the panca-sila. There is also no thought > of > following some codified set of precepts, because those > precepts are > thoroughly embodied. That is what it means to have this fetter > > terminated as I understand it. ________________ I don't know if one discards the precepts but certainly they become established so that they can't ever be broken. this is at that late stage, but the path is gradual. This clinging to sila must be seen otherwise it will be mistaken as the right path. And that is wrong view. __ > > > In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha recounts that many of > those > > who have excellent sila and can attain even the sublime > arupa > > jhanas have wrong view. > > Of course. This has never been a point of contention. The > point of > contention is the degree of emphasis placed on kusala. I would > say > (and this is also what I've been learned in my own studies) > that the > two--sila & panna--have to work in tandem, like "two wings on > a > bird." Also, it is important to know the appropriate order for > > bhavana. One doesn't just jump into insight (unless one is a > true > spiritual savant with strong accumulations of panna from > before). One > first cultivates sila. There is no other way, because without > sila, > no pacification of the hindrances. No pacification, no > concentration. > No concentration, no insight. No insight, no release. This > progression is quite straightforward. ______________________ I think this is a mistake and a common one. there is a commentary somewhere that says that the four great efforts all come together whenever there is understanding of the moment. There is sila at that moment, there is samadhi and there is panna. When there is insight into say colour, and that can be just a little, even now for us, there is a degree of detachment. One can know the difference of moments without awareness of this type. If a beautiful girl is the object of seeing then if there is no awareness this object conditions desire. but when there is awreness of colour (for instance) there is not desire. If one doesn't know how to study the present moment yet this may seem hard to do . But it can be done. One can try to perfect sila first . For example, refuse to go anywhere where one might see beautiful woman. This is fine, it is kusala. But why not learn to have the type of kusala that includes sila,samaadhi and panna at the same time? if there is satipatthana at the moment of seeing one doesn't have to try to stop lust because one doesn't lust just for colour. Rather the mental processes work to form up a concept (woman), it happens so fast; this is the wheel of paticcasamupada (dependent origination)- but moments of insight interrupt that process. ________________ > > Also, again, unless there is conscious development of kusala, > it > simply won't have occasion to arise. Given the only > alternative to > this is the arising of akusala, which is preferable? Are a > 1,000,000,000 moments of akusala preferable to 999,000,000 > akusala > and 1,000,000 kusala? ___________________ When is there a time when the Buddha said "don't have satipatthana." ? I see many moments when sati doesn't arise but also many times when it arises in less than calm or ideal situations. As a beginner I find that stressful situations can even condition more awareness because they are like a redflag saying "sati is wanted here". Khun sujin said this is still clinging though and one should learn to have awareness even in the most pleasant situations. ______________ > > Which reminds me, what is the specific meditation practice you > > presently do in this regard? I think this may help clarify > some. Does > it involve sitting meditation, focusing on the body in & of > itself, > for example? I am trying to understand the "other side" so to > speak, > because I am not clear on the meditation practices being > taught here > other than checking the arising and passing of Dhammas in > daily life, > without any sitting meditation at all. ______________________ Mostly my meditation practice involves the investigation of the dhammas at the six doors. It also includes much reflection on Dhamma (Dhammanusati) and this is at the level of samatha. Marananusati (reflection on death) used to be a very common reflection but is more intermittant now. Sometimes there are periods where there is none of the above- I don't feel guilty when there is no kusala because these moments should be understood too. WE can get very stressed if we have the idea that WE must do this or do that. I take a pretty relaxed approach and that has its obvious dangers but I do think we need to find our own balance, not be making rules about how an ideal buddhist should live. When I sit that is the time I do the above. And when I walk and talk and lie down and go shopping. The Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about recollection of the virtues of the Buddha, and recollection of the Dhamma and several other types of sammattha that: “` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children” In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: “as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerened with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days.” _ ________________________ > > > Even one of his first teachers could > > attain and master all eight mundane jhanas and believed(and > > stated ) that he was enlightened - but wasn't. > > When in thailand I used to put my hands together whenever we > > passed a temple, and in thailand that is every 2 minutes. > Khun > > duang duen(secreatry of the foundation) asked me why and I > said > > because it serves as a reminder of the merit of the buddha > etc. > > And in fact this is true. However, it all depends on the > > understanding at the moment as to the degree of kusala. For > one > > it can be simply respect but without any understanding of > the > > qualities of the Buddha - (They think of buddha in a > > superstitious way). For another they think of the qualities > so > > the kusala is more refined. Another is aware of feeling or > > seeing or thinking even while paying respects- and this is > > satipatthana, the real resort of followers of buddha. No one > can > > know by looking at someone, what cittas are arising at such > > moments - and even the person doing so may not be aware of > > subtle clinging such as hoping for good results or slight > lobha > > for awareness. Or conceit about ones 'merit'. > > Does this mean don't do it? No but I use it to demonstrate > why > > satipatthana is helpful in all situations; helpful because > it > > reduces self, and that is the way out of samsara. We can > purify > > sila or samatha to the nth degree but it will still be > tainted > > by wrongview if satipatthana is not developed in conjunction > > with it. > > In the samyutta nikaya(which I don't have handy) there are > > several suttas where it says that one should understand the > six > > bases. One can focus on breathing but I would suggest they > also > > learn to understand seeing and colour if they have time off > from > > their concentration exercises. _________________________________ > > Robert, I agree with everything you say here, and I accept it > in > light of the need to always maintain the balance of the Middle > Way, > to avoid going to extremes. For this reason I appreciate these > > reminders. On the other hand, if one reads these reminders > about > motivation and then thinks one can'd possibly practice kusala > well or > one can do away with cultivating kusala and just focus on > insight, > then I see a very big problem. At least it's a big problem if > the > intention is getting out of samsara. ___________________ I think what I find is that all different types of kusala become gradually easier (a little) through study and practise of satipatthana. if one sees that this or that treasured object is simply colour and smell and touch then there is not the same degree of attachment. Much easier to be generous. I love to read the Jataka and even just studying it is kusala at some level. So many moral pointers in there - it helps one in daily life. Whenever I see a full moon I see the rabbit etched on it - it reminds me of the bodhisatta.(just one example) As you perhaps indicate one can be fooling onself if one thinks "hey I am developing insight, no need for the lower stuff". One might be just developing nothing. It is all so profound. We have to do it all ourself, see it for ourself. robert > > I just want to be clear and say that I am responding to what I > > perceive as a lack of emphasis here in dsg on the > indispensible > practice of developing kusala states of mind (and samatha and > jhanas, > for that matter). I know this has been covered before, and I > know no > one is denying kusala is important. This is more a matter of > emphasis, as I see it. This is one of the problems I have had > with > Zen as well. I have seen the fruits of this emphasis in the > disturbing statements of certain Japanase Zen masters. Brian > Victoria's "Zen at War" shows just how perilous the extreme > of "wisdom" can be when divorced from sila, and especially > from > metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha. > > Great stuff, look forward to more! > > E. 5186 From: Howard Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidammatha Sangaha (Manual of Abhid) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/9/01 3:05:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > Howard, you said you were working through Bodhi's AS > (Manual of Abhidhamma) and that you'd like to ask > questions. Please go ahead and no need to restrict > them. I hasten to add that you can probably give the > answers as well as anyone (certainly as well as me in > most cases), but I'm sure they'll open up useful > discussions. > > ========================== Thanks, Sarah. No additional questions right now. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5187 From: Joyce Short Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:35pm Subject: Re: Kusala etc. Hi Howard, Ive found you gain - Im not going to be able to offer anything useful to this list - after many, many years of practice, all I can honestly say is that I don't know anything at all. But, the Dhammapada is good to read.... "Wanting nothing with all your heart Stop the stream. When the world dissolves Everything becomes clear. Go beyond this way or that way, To the farther shore Where the world dissolves And everything becomes clear. Beyond this shore And the farther shore beyond the beyond, Where there there is no beginning, No end. Without fear, go. Metta, Joyce > >> Someone trained in the Madhyamika-Prasangika system would say that >> nothing arises apart from its parts, causes, or the mind labeling it. >> > ================================ > As I understand it, all samsaric experience originates at the vortex > of vi~n~nana/namarupa, wherein there is the discerning of objects. So even > when there is no labelling (yet), no naming or conceptualizing - no sa~n~na, > there is no object of discernment without the citta which discerns it - > without the action of discerning. Thus all things which can be considered as > objects are objects of discernment (at least conditionally in the sense that > "when this is discerned then that is - or will be - discerned"). > I am not disagreeing with your third item; I'm just questioning the > emphasis on labelling there. As far as dependence on parts, that, of course, > goes all the way back to the chariot example, and constitutes another > instance of the faithfulness of your school to the original teachings. > Obviously, dependence on causes is basic as well. Likewise for dependence on > mind, as can be seen, for example, in the Dhammapada. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5188 From: Howard Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. Hi, Joyce - In a message dated 5/9/01 11:38:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Joyce Short writes: > Hi Howard, > > Ive found you gain - > > Im not going to be able to offer anything useful to this list - after many, > many years of practice, all I can honestly say is that I don't know anything > at all. But, the Dhammapada is good to read.... > > "Wanting nothing > with all your heart > Stop the stream. > > When the world dissolves > Everything becomes clear. > > Go beyond this way or that way, > To the farther shore > Where the world dissolves > And everything becomes clear. > > Beyond this shore > And the farther shore > beyond the beyond, > Where there there is no beginning, > No end. > > Without fear, go. > > Metta, > > Joyce > > > > ================================== You wrote: "... all I can honestly say is that I don't know anything at all." In that case, I'd say you've made great progress!! BTW, what's the source of the poem you quote? It's lovely. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5189 From: Joyce Short Date: Thu May 10, 2001 0:07am Subject: Re: Kusala etc. (mine or yours) BTW, what's the source of the poem you quote? It's lovely. Yes, of course, perfectly lovely -it's from the Dhammapada. "He does not linger With those who have a home Nor with those who stray, Wanting nothing, He travels on alone. Whatever is not his He refuses, Good or bad, great or small." Quite "homeless" in this "not-knowing" -quite bankrupt, all "homes" re-possessed. Nothing is mine. What a relief, Im not responsible for the upkeep. J. 5190 From: Erik Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:41pm Subject: Re: Kusala etc. --- "Joyce Short" wrote: > > > > Joyce, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, no matter which > > tradition we deal with, we have to cultivate kusala. > > No dis-agreement here - although perhaps it is wisdom to ask who is > cultivating wisdom at the same time cultivation occurs, otherwise there is > just continuing "akusala" (identification) not noted -(smile). I have met > practitioners who have done their 100,000's and still remain quite attached > to their accomplishment and the notion that there was someone "doing" the > practice -having forgotten about "absolute" bodhicitta in the relative, to > say nothing of the fact that during the practice no mindfulness was at all > present. And those vipassana meditators who for a time, fiercely maintain > separate "objectivity" through noting and labelling separate "objects". Hi Joyce, You bring up the idea that Robert mentioned, the notion that it is quite possible to become attached to kusala. I think it is very important to be aware of what both yourself and Robert mention, namely, not getting attached to a "doer" behind it. Of course this is exactly the logic behind any activity from the perspective of Prajnaparamita, and I do not disagree with you een a little bit on this point. What I have been addressing, mainly, is not putting the cart before the horse. There has to be kusala in place, first, before panna is even remotely possible. It really is a requirement. That people can become attached to kusala, to me, represents a far less risky proposition than going full-bore into the wisdom teachings and trying to skip the dualistic realities of the Dhamma that distinguishes between conventional phenomena based on their caharacteristics. It is what I perceive as a lack of balance that I am questioning. And really, what's the worst that can happen if you diligently strive to cultivate kusala states of mind and fail in awakening to supramundane insight in this lifetime? I think the result is far better than failing at BOTH kusala AND insight! At least if there is a large stock of merit, then the conditions will certainly arise to come into contact with the Dharma later on, and one will additionally encounter toall the conditions necessary to practice the wisdom aspect of the Dhamma to bring it to fruition. 5191 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 10, 2001 0:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. --- Howard wrote: > > Joyce Short writes: > > > the Dhammapada is good to read.... > > ============ > You wrote: "... all I can honestly say is that I don't > know anything > at all.[joyce]" In that case, I'd say you've made great progress!! I'd like to second that. Some very good points you've made tonight in your posts tonight, Joyce . welcome back robert 5192 From: Joyce Short Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: Kusala etc. > > You bring up the idea that Robert mentioned, the notion that it is > quite possible to become attached to kusala. I think it is very > important to be aware of what both yourself and Robert mention, > namely, not getting attached to a "doer" behind it. Of course this is > exactly the logic behind any activity from the perspective of > Prajnaparamita, and I do not disagree with you een a little bit on > this point. > > What I have been addressing, mainly, is not putting the cart before > the horse. Joyce:I realize that I have probably leaped into the middle of the conversation. >There has to be kusala in place, first, before panna is > even remotely possible. It really is a requirement. Joyce: I can only speak from limited experience, which at the moment is functioning memory. So some thoughts that appear.... "Kusala" for a beginning practitioner of Buddhism is already present because this precious human body has been obtained and then our encounter with Dharma. And anyone new to Buddhism shouldnt go off thinking, "O she said I didnt have to address unwholesome mind" -as there would still be someone reacting this way which is the essential existential situation still unaddressed. (smile) It is good to investigate and SEE if there is a "doer" - we don't take it forgranted that there isn't. Major instruction! We don;t even take the idea of "ignorance" as more than a given. In those moments of our life when we are total in any moment with anything -and we all have known this -there is no "ignorance". Here in this moment of awareness, ignorance isn't. So -in the beginning, of course one builds the foundation of the house of practice, the meaningful life through an application of the basic teachings which is basic sanity. What we call wholesome, is a way of living harmoniously and interdependently -thus mind is not in a fret and one has the calm and maturity needed to have a deeper look into what one calls life. Important in the understanding of "kusala" is "motivation", why are we doing what we are doing? When one first encounters suffering, one can see that it arises out of dualism, somehow -me, mine, yours, etc. A lot of suffering comes out of the mistaken identification that it, and every object, belongs to some object called "me", and this then is easily misunderstood to mean that "I" am bad, somehow "my" life is not wholesome (actually generating negative mindstate). And, Im unhappy because Im unwhoesome but when Im wholesome then Ill be happy. So -Im not saying that it is not important to cultivate wholesome states, but to recognize that these are states -and then to continually look into the relationship between these states, (even the "good" ones are impermanent) and see if they belong to anyone. A human can be engaged in very wholesome activities and still be a suffering being. "Wholesomeness" has the same characteristics as any other state. "My life is wholesome" is still delusional and partial. Striving to diligentily attain wholesome states can arise out of the unwholesome states of hatred, greed and delusion. Aversion to what is unwholesome ( an idea/concept/fiction/fabrication of what is unwholesome) is still cultivating aversion. Greed for wholesomeness or some enlighted state to be attained in some future time is still greed (and delusion). The only purity possible is in this very moment, where there is no state, and no personality grasping at it. And no one present to catagorize any appearance as wholesome or otherwise. I suspect that a lot of thinking about wholesomeness, or this or that, is a pleasant diversion from being totally present now. I have myself experienced terror here, and have often divereted -until could totally and completely allow terror and the knowing of terror, which turns out to be the same as everything else. joke on "me". All that being said, within the relativity of our usual patterns, we cultivate that which is wholesome and compassionate -may all sentient beings be free, may they be happy and free from the causes of suffering. If one kept this one thought in mind only, then this would be enough to lead one home to the actual reality where all sentient beings ARE free. One would follow this thought into the present spaciousness of its origination -but any thought would do. So, drop the "s" off the word sentient "being" -and chose freedom for all that arises -since it arises anyway, impersonal and uncontrollable. Looked at this way, one might see hate, greed, delusion etc, as sentient being. But, one does not permit acting out on others from these state -so what to do? Purify? Well, the more one sees, the more welcoming there is to anything arising, since it will arise anyway, sees that what arises is uncontrollable and impersonal, the more purification just naturally happens, as there is less clinging. This becomes effortless. All the noting is always after the fact, so, its already happened, rather too late to purify. Still, one can see the appearance and the knowing of it arising together and dissolving together into silence -and thats all there is. Knowing dissolves into Knowing. Now - if one sees Buddhist thought as a rather large house, one can look out and see the View from many windows. One of the Views in Tibetan Buddhism looks out upon the environment of body-mind continuum and sees even unwholesome states such as anger, as the arising of intrinsic nature as its expression. Left alone, just seen, this "liberates" just goes naturally, everything does. Just observation. This is rather fine because it gives one an inkling that enlightenment -or the experience of being the Whole and not just one of its parts, is not so far away. As in mindfulness, one steps back from identifying with anything and practices another way of seeing and encountering any appearance -as simply the expression of energy, consciousness and is not "Mine" or "me". And sees the contraction of identification when it occurs and those momoments of selflessness expansion when it occurs, kind of like the flow of the tides. This brings the same relief and peace as insight - and the relaxation coming from insight frees the tight fisted contraction of ego that lives as object separate from other objects. Thus, one is compassionate towards all appearances as they are welcomed and not judged. The mirror of knowing just reflects whatever appears. I think the approach is that all sentient beings are to be free, not reformed. But, all this is general, send me something "unwholesome" and we could examine this. Im pretty simpled minded and need small examples and simple language. I have heard that simply maintaining the aspiration to enlightenment in mind at all times and places is also brings find results - dropping the craving for results also is fine we are always only one thought away from "home." Things like "supramundane" are mental tricks, as are all conceptualizations. Nothing mundane here. It's all super - (smile) All thought now rapidly dissolving back into haven't a clue. Many thanks if you have waded patiently through all this. It was just a guess. Metta, Joyce That people can > become attached to kusala, to me, represents a far less risky > proposition than going full-bore into the wisdom teachings and trying > to skip the dualistic realities of the Dhamma that distinguishes > between conventional phenomena based on their caharacteristics. > > It is what I perceive as a lack of balance that I am questioning. And > really, what's the worst that can happen if you diligently strive to > cultivate kusala states of mind and fail in awakening to supramundane > insight in this lifetime? I think the result is far better than > failing at BOTH kusala AND insight! At least if there is a large > stock of merit, then the conditions will certainly arise to come into > contact with the Dharma later on, and one will additionally encounter > toall the conditions necessary to practice the wisdom aspect of the > Dhamma to bring it to fruition. 5193 From: Howard Date: Thu May 10, 2001 5:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. (mine or yours) Hi, Joyce - In a message dated 5/9/01 3:19:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joyce Short writes: > BTW, what's the source of the poem you quote? It's lovely. > > Yes, of course, perfectly lovely -it's from the Dhammapada. > > ========================= Hah! ;-)) That would, of course, be appropriate given what we had been discussing. I just don't recall it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5194 From: Paul Bail Date: Thu May 10, 2001 6:20am Subject: Introduction and a question from a new person Hello dear list members, By way of introduction I am a 54 year old male, living on the East Coast of the United States, interested in Buddhdharma. In the past year I ahve become aware of some of the resources on the Internet, including the wonderful world of lists. I am a newcomer to this particular list, having recently stumbled across it due to a comment someone made on another list. A few years ago I read one of Nina van Gorkom's books. But it is only in the past couple of months that an interest has begun in actually studying Abdhidamma. Lacking the education to use the correct technical terms, I will have to phrase my question in everyday language. I have long been confused about the role of intention and effort given the fact of selflessness. I can appreciate the teaching that ther is no "self" that can control one's progress on the path of truth. Finding the path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of the teachings, deepening one's study, and adhering to the path all depend upon conditions and are not in the direct control of a self that can "make" one do any of the above. Still, it seems that effort and intention play a role in the process. The Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and its cessation as the gateway to the path. Therefore one begins with an intention to end one's suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a desire, but unlike ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as one glimpses the truth that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering. So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a little confused. Perhaps this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one. Hopefully someone can clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about metta with the intention to have metta, it shows the clinging to self again." What is meant by this? If one starts with the desire to end suffering, as the Buddha suggests, and realizes that the path includes the accumulation of wisom *and* merit, including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind such as metta, then wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to promote the arising of metta? One could think that reading the sutta, contemplating it, etc. could provide conditions favorable to the arising of metta? Of course, one cannot *make* metta arise by doing this. Also it could (at times) be unskillful to turn to sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an unpleasant state of mind that is arising. Or to take another example--dana. One engages in the physical act of giving but becomes aware that a mental state of generosity may not be arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by second-thoughts, regrets, etc. One sees the selflessness of this process. One cannot *make* generosity arise. Nevertheless, the act of giving is preferable to non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate generosity still seems to have some place in the process of the path, does it not? I would presume that the point is not to forego sutta reading, or acts of generosity. Do you feel sutta reading is a good activity if done with correct understanding, not expecting it to be like putting a coin in a machine and getting a candy in return? Paul Bail ---------------- Sarah wrote: > now if we understand the difference between kusala and > akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we > open a sutta about metta with the intention to have > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the > understanding is always the key, so there can be > understanding of metta when it arises naturally by > conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed, > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object > like breath for development. There was also a lot > more discussion about breath as object of samatha. 5195 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 10, 2001 11:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person Dear Paul, welcome to the group. I hope you'll be a regular contributor. --- Paul Bail wrote: > Hello dear list members, > > I have long been confused about the role of intention and > effort given > the fact of selflessness. I can appreciate the teaching that > ther is no > "self" that can control one's progress on the path of truth. > Finding the > path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of the > teachings, deepening > one's study, and adhering to the path all depend upon > conditions and are not > in the direct control of a self that can "make" one do any of > the above. > Still, it seems that effort and intention play a role in > the process. The > Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and its > cessation as the > gateway to the path. Therefore one begins with an intention > to end one's > suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a desire, > but unlike > ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as one > glimpses the truth > that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering. ____________ It is true that in the begiining we are drenched in wrongview and desire. And if the deconstruction, as you call it, happens then this is pared away. However, I would say many buddhists do not get to see the right path. And this is because they do not come to see that the heart of the Dhamma is conditionality and anatta. The path - the eightfold path- really begins as investigation into the conditioned nature of phenomena happens. _________ > So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a little > confused. Perhaps > this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one. > Hopefully someone can > clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about metta with > the intention to > have metta, it shows the clinging to self again." What is > meant by this? > If one starts with the desire to end suffering, as the > Buddha suggests, > and realizes that the path includes the accumulation of wisom > *and* merit, > including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind such as > metta, then > wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to promote the > arising of metta? > One could think that reading the sutta, contemplating it, etc. > could provide > conditions favorable to the arising of metta? Of course, one > cannot *make* > metta arise by doing this. Also it could (at times) be > unskillful to turn to > sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an unpleasant > state of mind > that is arising. > Or to take another example--dana. One engages in the > physical act of > giving but becomes aware that a mental state of generosity may > not be > arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by > second-thoughts, > regrets, etc. One sees the selflessness of this process. One > cannot *make* > generosity arise. Nevertheless, the act of giving is > preferable to > non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate generosity > still seems to > have some place in the process of the path, does it not? > I would presume that the point is not to forego sutta > reading, or acts of > generosity. Do you feel sutta reading is a good activity if > done with > correct understanding, not expecting it to be like putting a > coin in a > machine and getting a candy in return? ___________________________________________ Well, what you say is the sort of careful considring that is directly supportive of direct wisdom Paul. Of course sutta study and acts of generosity are encouraged here. In fact there is a whole book by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (who sarah presumably got this comment from) called METTA. And in thailand there are detailed sets of tapes by her about the development of metta. These are well worth listening to. The point is, perhaps, that a lot of people have intention and effort but still don't get to see. Some study much, listen to khun sujin's radio program for years, but still don't really understand the actual characteristic of metta. If we listen just a little but then learn to distingusih metta from attachment it can be developed more and more, even if we don't read the suttas. And this is what is most crucial - knowing metta as it is. Understanding anatta is like a shortcut to developing metta because then when someone does something damaging automatically there can arise consideration of dhammas - as simply evanescent khandas. NOT 'me' being hurt; and nobody doing bad either. Thus metta for the concept of a person arises without trouble. There is so much to say about all this but I can see you are thinking well already and will be an asset here. robert > > Paul Bail > > ---------------- > Sarah wrote: > > now if we understand the difference between kusala and > > akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we > > open a sutta about metta with the intention to have > > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the > > understanding is always the key, so there can be > > understanding of metta when it arises naturally by > > conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed, > > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object > > like breath for development. There was also a lot > > more discussion about breath as object of samatha. 5196 From: Num Date: Thu May 10, 2001 8:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person Hi Paul, My name is Num, I just logged on to check my mail real quick. Welcome to the dsg. <> My understanding, as a layman, is Metta will happen with right causes and conditions. Usually intention to have more Metta is accompanied by subtle form of clinging, wanting or attachment. I can say that I would like to have metta all day and night tomorrow, I can write down my plan in a resolution. Intention alone is not a right condition for Metta to arise. As Robert said, if we have right understanding, less attachment and clinging, Metta will happen because of ripen condition. Not my metta, no regret of why we did not do that. Nothing wrong with desire to end suffering, but the bottom line is we cannot end suffering with clinging/wanting/desiring or denying suffering. Wisdom/Panna/right understanding is the harbinger of the path, not desire. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on the list. They can give you better explanation. Be patient, sutta reading is not a candy machine :) Num 5197 From: Num Date: Thu May 10, 2001 8:34am Subject: another cetasika question Hi Sarah and all, This a follow-up for cetasika question. What is the difference between ekaggata and manasikara cetasika?? You mentioned about phassa cetasika, I don't know where to look for a detailed explanation. ........................ In Milinda-panha book II, page 92 R.Davids 1925 Reverend Sir, what is the distinguishing characteristic of contact (phassa)? Touch, O king. But give me an illustration. It is as when two rams are butting together, O king. The eye should be regarded as one of those two, the form (object) as the other, and the contact as the union of the two. Give me further explanation It is as when the two cymbals are clashed together. The one is as the eye, the other as the object, and the junction of the two is like contact. Very good Nagasena. ....................................... Phassa is also listed as a ahara-paccaya, phassahara b/c without phassa, both citta and other cetasika cannot experience any object. So there cannot be citta without phassa. Have to go back to finish my work. Appreciate, Num 5198 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:24pm Subject: Re: notes from Bkk Dear Sarah, Anumoddhana for your efforts to take notes! --- Sarah Procter Abbott > 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa is > a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin > colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these be > explained when kamma can cause only the kammaja-rupa? > KS's answer was that these fall under cakkhuppasada > rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja rupa. > Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa. What I have heard before is that cakkhuppasada rupa only rises in t the middle (which middle?) of your eyes. The hair definitely has no Cakkhupasada. On the other hands, there are plenty of Kayapasada rupa everywhere, except, of course, for those Kalapa that is not Kayapasda kalapa (Cakkhupasada kalapa doesn't have kayapasda rupa, and neither do other rupas rising from other Samuthana). I would appreciate it if you clarify... kom 5199 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: notes from Bkk Dear Num & Kom, Thanks very much for picking this up....I've made a mistake which I need to re-think. Cakkhuppasada rupa is eyebase and not visible object for a start (we had another long chat about cakkhuppasada rupa and I got them mixed up.) I'm too busy to give this and all the other good pts and qus and comments attention now...but am very happy that the notes have triggered off so many interesting discussions!! pls be patient and we'll see if between us we can 'figure this out' better! It certainly needs clarification (read serious correction) and I'll do my best having got into some hot water here! Thanks again, Sarah --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Anumoddhana for your efforts to take notes! > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > > 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa > is > > a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin > > colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these > be > > explained when kamma can cause only the > kammaja-rupa? > > KS's answer was that these fall under > cakkhuppasada > > rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja > rupa. > > Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa. > > What I have heard before is that cakkhuppasada rupa > only rises in t the > middle (which middle?) of your eyes. The hair > definitely has no > Cakkhupasada. On the other hands, there are plenty > of Kayapasada rupa > everywhere, except, of course, for those Kalapa that > is not Kayapasda > kalapa (Cakkhupasada kalapa doesn't have kayapasda > rupa, and neither > do other rupas rising from other Samuthana). > > I would appreciate it if you clarify... > > kom