5400 From: Num Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem Hi Robert, Your mail caught my attention, so I did open Visuddhimagga, PTS 1971 by Pe Maung Tin, and read only part of chapter VIII, Mindfulness as to the Body. The intention of mindfulness of the body is clearly said at the beginning, ...conduces greatly to benefit, conduces greatly to peace from bondage, conduces greatly to mindfulness and comprehension, conduces to the attainment of knowledge and discernment, conduces to comfort in present life, conduces to realization of wisdom, emancipation and fruition. Which one is that state? Mindfulness as to the body. I am pretty impressed with the way it written. And this book was written around 500 AD. It's written in a very anatomical oriented manner, not physiological or function oriented. I am impressed that it's very in detail and somewhat deep and accurate. I guess that the information was obtained by studying may be dissecting a corpse. Divided into 32 parts, from top to bottom. I did not see anything about hadaya vatthu in the heart nor the brain section. May be it's in Atthakatta. The writer added in some comment such as, "the liver of those sluggish intellect is single and large. Those who are possessed lot of wisdom have two or more or three small livers". I don't think I agree with that. But the point of this is as it mentioned at the beginning is to help in being mindful and detached from idea of body as being a whole or body as myself. Come back to the heart. This is my personal opinion, OK. Because we can always sense something at the heart when our emotion change. Pounding with panic or anxiety, broken with sadness and disappointment, enlarge with rapture and elation. So we trend to make a link between the heart and the mind. The brain itself cannot even feel the pain if it were cut and it does not change with changing state of emotion. I cannot make any comment on connection between the mind and the brain or where is hadaya vatthu. My gut feeling is in Buddhism, the way of categorization is not anatomical or physiological oriented. As you said, Chakku-pasada is not the eye but it's something exists only a short moment as a base for contact between color and perception then falls away, happened to be occurred in the eyes. Rupa exists on a very short basis and falls away and then a new set occurs and falls away again. Alright, have to go. Robert, thanks for an interesting topic. Num 5401 From: Purnomo . Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, be happier, be better every day metta, Purnomo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic >question: what is the Abhidhamma. >She wrote: > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here. > >Dear Dhamma friend, > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be >like >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. >The >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect. >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own >inclination to what extent you want to study them. >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when >there >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it >is >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma. >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We >tend >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because >we >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. >We >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of >them. It can help us in daily life. >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you >not >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someonešs efforts who >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of >the Abhidhamma. > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. >Hardness >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on >Robertšs >Web ). >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more >interesting. >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujinšs Survey >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less >complicated than you thought at first. > >With metta, Nina. > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study >of >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like >Jaran's >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and >this is for all of us. > 5402 From: Purnomo . Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _ Dear Loke, you should understand who you are and who your friends. Thera are deep different what principal of Buddhism and other. So, if you explain from your-side never meet to point and may be will be debate which nothing used. But, if they always force you , I suggest you read "Beyond Belief" by Da Silva. You could search in site buddhism. be happier, be better everyday metta, purnomo >From: Paul Bail >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number >434 _ >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:03:19 EDT > >Dear Loke, > >If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing >of >Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early >Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church >Fathers" >believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates. >Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was >later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered >one >of the Church fathers. Also the Hassidic Jews believe in >reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of >Jesus's >period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know. In >India, >where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established belief. >However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that >because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life >process. So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment >process to your friends. > >From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of >no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life. Unless >everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently. >No >rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment. >This >is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God. Of course, >they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point. > >I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they >are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you >a >hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things. If >they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion >onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality, >etc.)? >If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful. > >Paul Bail > > From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" >Subject: RE: Digest Number 434 > >Dear Pau Bail, > > Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly >however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how >then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians >don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the >doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process >till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and >workings.... ? > >rgds, >Loke CL > 5403 From: Herman Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:14pm Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / Dear Purnomo. I think there are many levels of understanding, and that any understanding cannot be a bad thing. Sila, samadhi, panna. These are all worthwhile and wholesome seeds, and so would be their fruits.. No need to seek for just one, or avoid another. Twelve (dependant origination), Four (noble truths), Eight (fold path), who do we appreciate? It all leads to the same goal. Metta Herman --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > I'm not agree what you said. > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy > life. May Those used to you and all. > Thank, be happier, be better every day > metta, > > Purnomo > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > >She wrote: > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here. > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be > >like > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. > >The > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect. > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when > >there > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it > >is > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma. > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We > >tend > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because > >we > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. > >We > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of > >them. It can help us in daily life. > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you > >not > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someonešs efforts who > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of > >the Abhidhamma. > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. > >Hardness > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on > >Robertšs > >Web ). > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > >interesting. > >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujinšs Survey > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study > >of > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like > >Jaran's > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and > >this is for all of us. > > 5404 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1) Dear Dan, --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost despairing > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. I just try to share any comments according to my very limited understanding. I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition despair and aversion. Just as when we are enjoying a buffet (a Hong Kong past-time) everyone selects different dishes. As we know, dosa will always find an object! I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the cittas and the intentions when we speak that count as we've discussed and of course we all misunderstand others' points of view sometimes. For me, like Antony, I never find these exchanges or discussions discouraging at all, even if they are my mistakes or misunderstandings that are revealed. I realise that it is different for other people though. You've also pointed out how people like myself (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in or otherwise how is anyone to know? Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address these other points first. Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments. Sarah 5405 From: Antony Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / hello Purnomo. coud you please elaborate in this: > > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve > your holy > > life. Do you know of any reference to that in the discourses of Buddha. I must say I'm no big Abhidhammist myself, but in my limited knowledge I can see some relationship between the technology of abhidhamma and the 4 noble truths. I see many of our friends here using the abhidhmamma system to observe their suffering, to see that they are suffering to recognise that sufferng has it's causes to investigate the causes of this suffering and to practice stopping the feeding of their suffering. I don't disagree with you that the intellectual abstraction of Buddhas teaching may reduce it's effectiveness and may for many perhaps even prevent its effecctive implementation. Thanks for your time antony brennan > > > > Purnomo > > > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very > basic > > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > > >She wrote: > > > Abhidhamma > > > subject.What's > > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer > it here. > > > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and > again you > > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound > to be > > >like > > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is > generosity. > > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of > Abhidhamma. > > >The > > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it > shows the > > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and > effect. > > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning > would be > > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained > by these > > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on > your own > > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse > it, > > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at > different > > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that > when > > >there > > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, > they arise > > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We > use in > > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something > lasting. > > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a > reality, it > > >is > > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences > sound, it > > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is > dhamma. > > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are > mental > > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not > experience > > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are > physical > > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or > names to > > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of > Abhidhamma. We > > >tend > > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? > Because > > >we > > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views > of them. > > >We > > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that > today. > > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more > understanding of > > >them. It can help us in daily life. > > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you > act like > > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or > are you > > >not > > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there > are moments > > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of > cittas > > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or > are they > > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of > citta > > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someonešs > efforts who > > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the > Abhidhamma > > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your > life. Should > > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the > study of > > >the Abhidhamma. > > > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental > phenomena, nama. > > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for > everyone, no > > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another > nama, is > > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a > beggar. > > >Hardness > > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of > the table > > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult > terms of > > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that > our life is > > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the > Dhamma > > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his > on > > >Robertšs > > >Web ). > > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very > gradually > > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa > are > > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > > >interesting. > > >I could also recommend from Acharn > Sujinšs Survey > > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma > Vipassana. > > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about > her study > > >of > > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and > abstract but > > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also > like > > >Jaran's > > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just > now. Hallo > > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some > people may > > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any > question > > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not > studied much > > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never > enough, and > > >this is for all of us. > > > 5406 From: Antony Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:52pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Hey Dan after reading Sarahs post I just realised you might be reffering to people posting here as CAW. I guess sometimes they can just be a bunch of old CAWS. Will you be posting "Discouraging (1.2)" for us? In light of the lurking issue I think your first post is intersting to discuss. I don't know that there is any responsibility for the big CAWS to encourage and teach, although certainly that would be useful and potentialy beneficial. I don't think we should have to high of an expectation about what we will gain on the list. (If CAW aren't list based just ignore me) Having said that I refer back to my other post were I would hope being a member of this sangha of a kind is useful for as many people as possible, I am sure that is the spirit in which Jon and Sarah, Amara and Robert made there first posts. Anyway I still think your first post is intersting to discuss and it's good that you raised the issue in the comprehensive way that you did, do you condider yourself a CAW, I'm more HAABOWHATL myself, thats a Hoping to Absorb Abhidhamma By Osmosis Whilst Hanging Around This List person :) So lets here more, hopefully many can benefit. antony brennan LLL --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Dan, > > --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost > despairing > > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. > > I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. I just > try to share any comments according to my very limited understanding. > > I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa > conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say > accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition > lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition > despair and aversion. Just as when we are enjoying a buffet (a Hong Kong past-time) everyone > selects different dishes. As we know, dosa will always find an object! > > I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways > to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the > cittas and the intentions when we speak that count as we've discussed and of course we all > misunderstand others' points of view sometimes. For me, like Antony, I never find these exchanges > or discussions discouraging at all, even if they are my mistakes or misunderstandings that are > revealed. I realise that it is different for other people though. You've also pointed out how > people like myself (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our > posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. > > However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and > saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in > or otherwise how is anyone to know? > > Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address > these other points first. > > Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments. > > Sarah > 5407 From: robert Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:35pm Subject: Fwd: knowing the moment --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: I was re-reading your comments in Post 19521 "Re: Euthanasia." You mentioned; <<. If the moment is known then doubt about what is kusala and what is akusala fades. The more akusala -even subtle clinging to calmness or the idea of control - is seen as akusala the more that a turning away from akusala occurs. One doesn't have to make resolutions then.>> I wonder, could you help me out by expanding a little on how you are using the term "knowing the moment"? And are you indicating that right action could unfold in some spontaneous way from knowing the moment? ___________ Dear Paul, I like the way you home in on delicate point even with the merest hint. I was indeed suggesting that right action comes about from knowing the moment correctly. let me elaborate: Most of us when we first learn about Dhamma rearrange our lives to reflect Dhammic principles. This is all well and good except that for a lot of us there is a degree of tension and exertion that is perhaps driven as much by an idea of control(i.e.self) as it is by right view. There are different ways to keep sila - because one thinks one should, because one thinks it somehow leads to nibbana, because one is afraid of the consequences if one doesn't, one doesn't want other to think badly of one....the list goes on. However, none of these are particulary rooted in wisdom. Satipatthana, though, is the true resort for Bhikkhus and all disciples of the Buddha. If there is more insight of the moment there can't be the same degree of obsession with things as before. While satipattha is sometimes misunderstood as being a simple type of knowing it is actually a profound way of seeing that dispells avijja(ignorance). By the development of satipatthana the difference between concept and reality is known and this must influence behaviour. For example, one sees a BMW car; for many in the world this would be a source of envy and jealousy, or perhaps after seeing it one has so much desire that they do all sorts of evil - working at wrong liveilihood - to get the money to buy one. On the other hand if colour is known as colour at the moment it arises desire just doesn't arise. Of course, satipatthana cannot arise just by will so often colour is not known and desire does arise for different objects - but even glimpses of satipatthan have an impact on behaviour. And this in a very natural, no-stress way. When we were children we played with sandcastles and loved them but now we feel nothing if we see the waves destroy one. We don't have to tell ourselves "Oh sandcastles are impermanent we shouldn't cry..." and in the same way the development of satipatthana leads (ever so slowly) into detachment from the khandas (the five aggregates). Another example; someone insults us. Now being good buddhists we might think to ourselves "OH, I shouldn't get angry" and reason our way to calmness; or we might sit and watch our breath until we cool down; or recite metta suttas.. All this is fine. But if there is direct insight into sound at the moment it arises then it is only sound and thus anger cannot arise; then one doesn't have to try and stop it or anything. Satipatthana brings sila, samadhi and panna (morality and concentration and wisdom )into being at the same moment. As I said it is the true home of the Bhikkhu and the disciple of the Buddha. robert --- End forwarded message --- 5408 From: Howard Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / Hi, Purnomo - In a message dated 5/31/01 12:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Purnomo writes: > I'm not agree what you said. > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your > holy > life. May Those used to you and all. > Thank, be happier, be better every day > metta, > > Purnomo > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > >She wrote: > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here. > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be > >like > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. > >The > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect. > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when > >there > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it > >is > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma. > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We > >tend > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because > >we > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. > >We > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of > >them. It can help us in daily life. > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you > >not > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someonešs efforts who > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of > >the Abhidhamma. > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. > >Hardness > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on > >Robertšs > >Web ). > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > >interesting. > >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujinšs Survey > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study > >of > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like > >Jaran's > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and > >this is for all of us. > =============================== I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see it, Abhidhamma is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller were to confuse the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be deranged. Yet, there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for what it refers to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is concept, and, as any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate realities. However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in the apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The Abhidhamma seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a wonderful source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes one more instance of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The intellect, and intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve as helpful guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, and especially so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my perspective. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5409 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / Thank you Howard. Exactly so. robert > =============================== > I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see > it, Abhidhamma > is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller > were to confuse > the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be > deranged. Yet, > there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for > what it refers > to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is > concept, and, as > any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate > realities. > However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in > the > apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The > Abhidhamma > seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a > wonderful > source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes > one more instance > of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The > intellect, and > intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve > as helpful > guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, > and especially > so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my > perspective. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 5410 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem Dear Gayan, Num and Antony, Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart: Robert, > > Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here is the > physical organ that is being spoken about? Could it not be that "heart" is > referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that citta includes > both mind and emotion? > _______________________________ Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena) and so is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this in the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our world). In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as hadaya (heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often given. It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for citta) have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our world) this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty), whereas cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye, ear, nose tongue body etc)are all indriya. The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is not contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or weakness of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana). This is contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter in the eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the same for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be even more subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base. robert 5411 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:32pm Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / Dear Howard, Thanks for the useful comparison. Another comparison is, for those drawn to the 4th-grade science teaching, the model (theory) and the realities. The model tells us what the realities might be and it may even tell us what to look for, not to look for, but we would never know the realities as= they truly are just by studying the theory alone. kom --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Purnomo - > > In a message dated 5/31/01 12:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Purnomo writes: > > > > I'm not agree what you said. > > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The > > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. > > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your > > holy > > life. May Those used to you and all. > > Thank, be happier, be better every day > > metta, > > > > Purnomo > > > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic > > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > > >She wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it h= ere. > > > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you > > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be > > >like > > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. > > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. > > >The > > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the > > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effec= t. > > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be > > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by = these > > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own > > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, > > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different > > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when > > >there > > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise > > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in > > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. > > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it > > >is > > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it > > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma= . > > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental > > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience > > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical > > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to > > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We > > >tend > > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because > > >we > > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. > > >We > > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. > > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of > > >them. It can help us in daily life. > > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like > > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you > > >not > > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments > > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas > > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they > > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta > > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someonešs efforts who > > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma > > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should > > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of > > >the Abhidhamma. > > > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. > > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no > > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is > > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. > > >Hardness > > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table > > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of > > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is > > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma > > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on > > >Robertšs > > >Web ). > > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually > > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are > > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > > >interesting. > > >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujin šs Survey > > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. > > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study > > >of > > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract = but > > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like > > >Jaran's > > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. = Hallo > > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may > > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question > > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much > > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and > > >this is for all of us. > > > =============================== > I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see it, Abhidham= ma > is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller were to confuse > the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be deranged. Yet, > there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for what it refers > to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is concept, and, as > any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate realities. > However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in the > apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The Abhidhamma > seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a wonderful > source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes one more instance > of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The intellect, and > intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve as helpful > guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, and especial= ly > so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my perspective. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a= > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) = 5412 From: selamat Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Dear rikpa21. Anumodana for your great effort. May you ever grow in the Dhamma. selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:38 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project > > Hi all, > > As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am presently > creating a computerized model of key elements and their relations > (paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance, along > with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes this > unique, I think. > > My feeling, from preliminary systems analysis, is that this is > feasible, and will yield interesting results in terms of analysis of > dhammas using the Abhidhamma as a canonical reference. > > The current data model is broken out as follows: all terms in this > model are "atoms," or the smallest meaning-units we can work with, > for example, the term "avijja." > > For example, an entry with attributes, using "avijja" as an example, > looks like: > > Entry: "avijja": > > 1. definitions (multi-language support) > a. Pali > I. literal term: avijja > b. English > I. literal term: ignorance > II. Ignorance that conceives of self-essence > > (note: all definitions have volume and paragraph references as well: > ex. "MN.118" or "Vis. XX.10", meaning that all definitions will have > a hyperlink to the source of the definition for reference if > available). > > 2. synonyms > a. moha > > 3. relations (paccaya) > a. root condition for sankhara > b. prenascence condition for sankhara > > 4. categories (any number of arbitrary categories) > a. paticca samuppada > > 5. groups > a. akusala > > As this entry shows, the term "avijja" contains attributes like > "definitions," which can be in any language, "synonyms," for > thesaurus-like lookups, and most important, "relations": how "avijja" > is related to other conceptual "atoms" (not in the Vaisesika sense!) > via relations. > > Modeling these relations programatically means it should be possible > to "surf" from one relation to the next, much as one navigates the > Web, through hyperlinking. The idea is to create a hyperlinked > reference of key terms from the Dhammasangani and Patthana. I have > already constructed a quick and dirty prototype of this in CSharp > (the new MS programming language), but found that it came up short. I > have chosen to implement the protptype using generic Common LISP--an > artifial intelligence programming language designed for managing > lists and categories, which is very portable across computing > architectures and has a simple, powerful, and very flexible > grammar (lambda functions for dynamic rule execution, example). > > One aim is to allow the user of this application to create custom > queries (natural language would be a nice goal, and is well-supported > in LISP) that navigate from one connection to the next using > specific "rules," such as "show me all atoms that belong to the > akusala group." Or, "show me all the parallel factors associate with > viriyindriya." > > Another goal is to be able to take these data structures and > represent them visually, for example, displaying a tree of the > primary Abhidhamma categories. Down the road, if time permits, a > three-dimensional "hyperbrowser" for Abhidhamma concepts may be > possible. > > As I have been considering this project, a number of goals have > presented themselves: > > 1. THE DHAMMA MUST BE FREE. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO MACCARIYA, EVER, with > regard to sharing the Dhamma, as some organizations do (which is > incomprehensible to me). It must also be universally accessible, via > the Web, to allow anyone to browse Abhidhamma/Dhamma categories and > definitions and relations from the comfort of their own homes. > > 2. It must allow for collaboration. The job of inputting definitions > is tedious, and no one person in one lifetime can ever do this > justice. Collaborators MUST be able to edit the database from the > Web, to submit or modify entries, etc. Another important reason for > this is that its aim is to provide multi-language support. Language- > specific editors need to be able to create references to source texts > in a given language, as well as add definitions. There is no limit on > the number of languages this will support. Each "atom" can have > definitions if Sanskrit, English, French, etc. > > 3. It should be able to support concept-spaces across Canons, e.g. > the terms & concepts in the Tipitaka Abhidhamma should be tied to > terms and references from the Abhidharmakosa. This would allow for > cross-referencing between versions and definitions as they appear. > This will GREATLY facilitate the process of translation, both of the > Tibetan Kanjur & Tenjur as well as any remaining untranslated > components of the Abhidhamma. This was my original motivation: to > provide a concordance and reference, with term hyperlinking. This is > something I began to explore when working on the Asian Classics Input > Project (http://www.asianclassics.org/), which was begun by Geshe > Michael Roach to digitally input all the key texts from the Tibetan > Canon (see: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.08/dharma_pr.html). > > 4. The structural relations will allow for MUCH interesting > processing, perhaps even a "meditation advisor" expoert system, which > like the simple Artifial Intelligence (AI) program Eliza, could ask a > series of questions and provide feedback from the Abhidhamma, using > things like relations (paccaya) that show the necessity of certain > path-factors to meditation, and how to counteract nivaranas one seems > to have present (based on the advisor's questions). This is just one > possibility--perhaps a bit hokey--but the potential of computational > analysis on relations among "atoms" shuold hopefully be clear. > > Areas I need some help in: > > I am posting this here in hopes that some here can take a look at > the "atom" definition and see if I'm missing anything. I think a > combination of attributes and relations hould be enough to define > an "atom." > > Also, at present, given I only have the Visuddimagga as a guide, the > list of relations there simply won't cut it given the scope of the > Patthana, for example. To that end, does anyone here have a copy of > the BUDSIR (from Manidol U.) of ALL the Pali Tipitaka digitized I > could download? I know it's big (70+M), but I have DSL. I need a core > reference so I can begin inputting some core definitions from the > Patthana, if possible. > > Comments, suggestions, or digital copies of the Canon in Pali and > English would all be greatly appreciated. If there is a digital > version of even the Visuddhimagga and a Pali dictionary it would be a > great start. > 5413 From: Antony Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 6:15am Subject: Re: Heart problem In the book I mentioned the premise is that the phyisical organ, the heart, would appear to think, to motivate us and to communicate with OUR head snd other hearts. In the book they talke about electromagnetic experiments where someone enters a room without the subject in the room knowing but the subjects heart responds the way it does when people knowingly meet. The book claims that the eloctromagnetic pulese between people seem to occur in such a way as to intimate that they are pulsing back and forth to each other. The author goes so far as to say that our hearts are sending messages out to the world. It's abit lke the way dolphins and wales communicate but instead of sound it is electromagnetic pulses. Ther eis a lot of study abut the chemico-electric activity in the brain and how that can be shown to be related to our behaviour and thinking, the book gived evidence to support the claim that there is MORE electromagnetic phenomena occuring in the heart than in the brain. I remember the Native American quote that after having dealt with white people for some time one cheif said something like We know these people are crazy because they think that we are living in our heads, when we KNOW we are living in our heart. INteresting anyway antony brennan --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Gayan, Num and Antony, > Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always > Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart: > Robert, > > > > Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here > is the > > physical organ that is being spoken about? Could it not be > that "heart" is > > referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that > citta > includes > > both mind and emotion? > > > _______________________________ > Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena) > and so > is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this > in > the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our > world). > In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as > hadaya > (heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They > specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often > given. > > It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for > citta) > have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our > world) > this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty), > whereas > cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye, > ear, > nose tongue body etc)are all indriya. > The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is > not > contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or > weakness > of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana). > This is > contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter > in the > eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the > same > for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be > even more > subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base. > robert > 5414 From: Herman Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:23pm Subject: Alzheimers Hi everyone, Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of us, being less distracted by memories? Knowing the moment, does it require the past? Can there be panna without sanna? I'm asking because I do not know. Regards Herman 5415 From: Antony Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: Alzheimers hey there Herman the answer is no they do not. People with alzheimers lead a life tortured by there inability to remember anything. Eventually their brains aren't working much at all and they would die like a newborn child would die with no-one to feed them and care for them. As things spiral toward the bitter end they suffer, I believe first a great disorientation as the past seems as if it is here. A friend of mines father thinks that his wife is not hos wife and that he is not in his own home and that his "girl" the woman his wife was years ago is waiting somewhere for him and he longs to go and be with her. Packs his bags and all. He will eventually forget al his family and forget to do anything, he will not be able to dress or eat or go to the toilet. (he'll begin to do that in his pants. It is as you can imagine an awful process which is very, very disturbing for the victim and the family. Terrifying for all. nice thought though about not being distracted by thoughts. Unfortunatley I have known two friends who's family members have suffered this fate and it is awful. I don't know about panna without sanna. but there's some really good old CAWs here he do --- Herman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of us, > being less distracted by memories? > > Knowing the moment, does it require the past? > > Can there be panna without sanna? > > I'm asking because I do not know. > > Regards > > Herman 5416 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alzheimers Dear Herman, I like these questions as I've wondered the same thing myself. As Antony pointed out Alzheimers is no fun. Still I would give some other thoughts. --- Herman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of > us, > being less distracted by memories? ______________ it is not the memories really, that distract but the attachment or aversion to them.`Memories are just thinking taking a concept; and thus insight into: thinking or sanna, or the underlying lobha or dosa or avijja that occurs at these moments can occur. > > Knowing the moment, does it require the past? ___________________ I would say perhaps not. If there have been accumulations of genuine satipatthana at a level beyond the conceptual understanding of anatta; and if satipatthana has become habitual then why should it not continue even if memory has deteriorated. One could wonder though if someone who had this degree of insight would suffer the profound loss of memory that Antony detailed- this I don't know. > > Can there be panna without sanna? ___________ Sanna arise with every citta thus even if there is the complete loss of conventional memory sanna is arising. I know what you mean though. Can panna arise if there is no memory of the Dhamma? My answer is above > > I'm asking because I do not know. ______ So I don't know either. Just my speculation above. robert 5417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Dear Erik, I always wondered what a boy from salt-lake city would be like if he had right view. I'm always impressed by the energy and sincerity of the Christians I meet from those parts. Well, now I know. You're a real inspiration. I feel overwhelmed already with work but if I see a way to help I'll try. robert --- Erik wrote: > > Hi all, > > As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am > presently > creating a computerized model of key elements and their > relations > (paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance, > along > with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes > this > 5418 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:15pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [antony] Dear Antony, Thanks for your refreshing and thoughtful post. I enjoy hearing your insights. I do want to respond (or echo?) some of your points directly as well. Antony: "In my own limited understanding it seems like these things are a matter of degree. Of course in the beginning the obstacles seem great but the more you learn by observation of them and implementing the precepts and the eightfold path the lesser of an obstacle they become due to the skillfulness you develop in knowing them, recognising them, developing a better way of being that stops feeding them, seeing into what they are and developing ways that they have less capacity to control." Dan: This sounds about right. The obstacles (nivarana) are indeed great in the beginning. They remain great for some time. Indeed, viewed from another angle, the same cetasikas that arise as "nivarana" are fetters (samyojana). Sceptical doubt remains a fetter and obstacle until the stage of sotapanna is reached. Sense desire and ill-will remain fetters and obstacles until the stage of anagami, while restlessness&worry and sloth&torpor remain until arahatship. Antony: "I think discouragement is a significant factor in developing Dhamma Practice." Dan: This is also true to a certain extent. Discouragement is a flavor of dosa, which is a fetter and obstacle. I find this particular flavor of dosa to be much less of a problem for me than some of the other flavors. But for other people, discouragement-flavored dosa may well be more of an object. Antony: "Funny thing is that I am usually a little elated to find I have had some wrong view or understanding. I feel like I must be developing toward a better understanding if I have to deconstruct something I have been hanging on to." Dan: It certainly is refreshing to discover, pinpoint, understand, realize, see some wrong view or understanding that is pointed out and abandoned! This must be so because wrong view is the root of so much suffering. 5419 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:17pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)[Antony] Hi Antony, You crack me up! > Hey Dan after reading Sarahs post I just realised you might be > reffering to people posting here as CAW. I guess sometimes they can > just be a bunch of old CAWS. > > Will you be posting "Discouraging (1.2)" for us? If I don't, it will be because I am too sick or too far behind in my work to get it done. It won't be because I'm lurking. (For the most part, when I read, I post too). > I don't know that there is any responsibility for the big CAWS to > encourage and teach, although certainly that would be useful and > potentialy beneficial. I don't think we should have to high of an > expectation about what we will gain on the list. (If CAW aren't list > based just ignore me) Having said that I refer back to my other post > were I would hope being a member of this sangha of a kind is useful > for as many people as possible, I am sure that is the spirit in which > Jon and Sarah, Amara and Robert made there first posts. "Big CAW's"? Hmmmm... This is starting to get into finer distinctions than I'M comfortable with! But when it comes to defining responsibilities for the nebulous categories that we come up, that is, shall we say, not my responsibility! > Anyway I still think your first post is intersting to discuss and > it's good that you raised the issue in the comprehensive way that you > did, do you condider yourself a CAW, I'm more HAABOWHATL myself, > thats a Hoping to Absorb Abhidhamma By Osmosis Whilst Hanging Around > This List person :) Being a teacher, I'm not a big proponent of the "learning by osmosis" theory. Instead: study, study, study, and practice, practice, practice. > So lets here more, hopefully many can benefit. Amen! (or is it Saadhu!) Dan 5420 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:16pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your warm and compassionate post. I appreciate your kindness and always-readiness to help. I do want to respond to some of your comments directly, though. > I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. "CAW" is certainly a lofty title, and I really do believe that you do not aspire to be one, and that you don't aspire to not to be one. You are much more interested in learning what you can and helping whenever you have the opportunity. This is commendable. > I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa > conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say > accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition > lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition > despair and aversion. This is most certainly true. > I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways > to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the > cittas and the intentions when we speak that count... It may well be true that it is the cetana that counts, and that good intentions have good results. However, the true intention is so easily cloaked in lobha, dosa, or moha that it is not enough to just think about the intention and to rest easy because we think we have good intentions. Where is the dosa, lobha, moha? Did they root enough of the cittas to make the overall effect of the speech or thought or action akusala? > You've also pointed out how > people like myself (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our > posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. I must be missing something because I don't see anything that you've done that needs an apology. As you've said, you are just trying to help people think about and understand Dhamma. I believe you. > However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and > saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in > or otherwise how is anyone to know? Hmmm.... Here's where there is a confusion between "being discouraged" and finding someone's writing discouraging. I'm not feeling discouraged at all. But I can see how someone who has studied Dhamma for decades and has an intricate knowledge of the suttas, a good working knowledge of Abhidhamma, a well-developed meditation practice, is interested in learning Dhamma, discussing Dhamma, understanding Dhamma might find something that obscures Dhamma and contradicts Dhamma in the name of Dhamma discouraging. Would they be discouraged? Yes, if they take Dhamma as not-Dhamma or not-Dhamma as Dhamma. But when there is understanding of Dhamma, Dhamma is encouraging, while not-Dhamma does not give rise to discouragement even though the sound of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa). > Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address > these other points first. > > Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments. Thanks for you encouragement. I'm only in limited action now because I've had a fever for over a week (usually mild but always present). I am appreciating greatly even this limited action because there is always the immediate possibility of an extended out-of-action time. I do hope to get to "Discouraging (1.2)" soon! Dan 5421 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:19pm Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project Hi Erik, Great project idea! Best wishes to you. You will certainly learn a lot, and hopefully you will be able to help others learn just as much. Thanks. Dan 5422 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:38pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Dear Erik, This sounds like a very interesting project!! It wouldbe really great to see Eliza answering someone's Dhamma questions. Sometime back I did some research on this Eliza, and theres a way to upload the data into Eliza so the questions and answers can be customized.(from the standard queries that eliza normally handles ) One suggestion is -> XML would be a great support for the hyperdhammabrowser[ the UI for the system ], as a good dhammaXML schema would provide easy interpretation of the results generated. Way to go Erik! Regards. 5423 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:30pm Subject: A Name for Your Digital Abhidhamma Project Hi, Erik - Yours is an amazing project! I wish you great success with it. It occurs to me that with all the interconnections involved among the various concepts, an apt name for your system might be 'Indra's Net'. This would have the double advantage of reflecting the nature of the system and also setting the teeth of us Theravadins on edge! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5424 From: Num Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Hi Erik, First of all, thanks for your input in cetasika question. Appriciate. I thought about responding to the issue of using MDMA, PCP, LSD ect. as well, but my time restraint is my limit. I can say that I not agree with it. Anomodhana in your project. I have CD Tipitaka by Mahidol Univ but it's in Thai not a Ramanized Pali. I don't think you can read Thai. If you can let me know. Num 5425 From: Num Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alzheimers Hi Herman, Quick response. Alzheimer disease is characterized not only by memory problem. There a lot more requirements to Dx this disease, memory problem alone is not Alzheimer. There also need further higher cognitive impairments such as aphasia(language impairment), apraxia (motor impairment), agnosia (recognition impairment) and impairment in executive function i.e planning, organizing, sequencing or abstracting. Their ability to focus or concentrate is severely affected as well. So I don't think that is better. Mind and citta are very complicated phenomena. Best wishes, Num 5426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:18am Subject: Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / Purnomo wrote: I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, be happier, be better every day metta, Purnomo Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep. You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond our daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the essence of the Buddhašs teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to people so that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble Truths? The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We see and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit bad deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that people could develop understanding of their life. We think of and other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa. You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. The Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors. We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends on the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of the Buddha. Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha, suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. Seeing arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible object and hearing sound; seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this moment. This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of direct understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of the four noble Truths. The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the Dependant Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana, can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but this is a long process. If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of questioning. With metta, Nina van Gorkom. 5427 From: Num Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Hi Nina, I read your mail during my lunch. Hard not to respond. I really appreciate reading your response in the mail. Just reading it made me feel really good. Hope seeing you more. Anumodhana. Num 5428 From: Tori Korshak Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Dear Nina, Thank you for this very clear explanation. Metta, Victoria At 07:18 PM 6/1/01 +0200, you wrote: > Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / > Purnomo wrote: > >I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help >your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most >important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not >important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, >be happier, be better every day metta, >Purnomo > >Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep. >You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond our >daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the >essence of the Buddhašs teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to people so >that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble >Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble >Truths? >The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright >understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We see >and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account >of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise >already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit bad >deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is >Abhidhamma. >Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us >off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that >people could develop understanding of their life. We think of and >other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The >Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no >self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been >cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there >are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears, >nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who >experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just >sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past >kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant >object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala >kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma >teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life >arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been >developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only >elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa. >You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. The >Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words >adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the >truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and >the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors. >We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic >understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to >read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends on >the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is >Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the >monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The >Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of >the Buddha. >Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha, >suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away >of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is >dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other >realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a >time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long >process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. Seeing >arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible object >and hearing sound; seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the >earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different >conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the >teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the >Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of >understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this moment. >This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The >practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of >satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of direct >understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of >the four noble Truths. >The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the >condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the Dependant >Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our >going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We >cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the >four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana, >can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but >this is a long process. >If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of questioning. >With metta, Nina van Gorkom. > 5429 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:31am Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Dear Dan, --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa). > You may mean "dukkha" needs not give rise to dosa. Domanassa always arise with dosa and they mutually supports each other. kom 5430 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 8:06am Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Kom] Oops! Thanks, Kom. You are of course right. So what's the Pali word for "bad news"? Unpleasant bodily feeling (dukkha) is defined as unpleasant according to what the regular, everyday person would think it is. What, then, of news that the regular, everyday person would think of as bad? E.g., the untimely death by violence of one's child or parent or teacher. Like unpleasant bodily sensation, this need not be met with dosa. Hearing of the death, the violence, etc., the unliberated mind forms concepts of "loved one", "death", "violence" Dosa then arises because the news is "bad." But defining "pleasant" and "unpleasant" MENTAL sensation in terms of what the common wordling would think of as "unpleasant", then "untimely death of a loved one by violence" would be unpleasant mental sensation like hitting the thumb with a hammer would be unpleasant bodily sensation. But "domanassa" doesn't apply. What does? Dan > --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > > of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa). > > > > You may mean "dukkha" needs not give rise to dosa. Domanassa > always arise with dosa and they mutually supports each other. > > kom 5431 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1) Dan Thanks for your post on the hindrances. My apologies for being slow in giving my comments. Actually I think we are a lot closer on this subject than might at first sight appear. For example, I'm sure you would agree that -- - The hindrances are kinds of akusala that are particular obstacles to the development of the jhanas - They are temporarily suppressed/suspended by one who enters the first jhana. - They are eradicated only on the attainment of the various stages of enlightenment - the hindrance of doubt is eradicated on the attainment of sotapanna-ship and the final hindrances of sloth & torpor and restlessness at arahatship. Where we differ, I think, is the extent to which they should be regarded as particular obstacles to the development of insight, in the way that they are particular obstacles to the development of jhana. I would like to re-post something from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and commentary which I mentioned in a post to Howard recently. This is from Chapter VII of the Ven. Narada/Bhikkhu Bodhi translation "#8: Six hindrances: the hindrances of (1) sensual desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4) restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance. Guide to #8: The hindrances are so called because they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to the attainment of Nibbana. According to the commentary the hindrances are mental factors which prevent unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do not allow arisen wholesome states to endure. The first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the major obstacle to the arising of wisdom." [ends] As Howard pointed out, the passage says that the (usual) 5 hindrances are the *major* obstacle to the jhanas, while ignorance is the *major* obstacle to the arising of wisdom. This doesn't mean that the 5 hindrances are of no consequence in the development of satipatthana. It is said in a number of suttas that they 'weaken' insight. It is I suppose a question of emphasis. Take for example the reference from the Visuddhimagga quoted in your post. That is part of a reference beginning at XXII 32 dealing with the ‘States Associated with the Path’. One group of such states are ‘the kinds of states that ought to be abandoned’, and these are set out at par. 47 of the same chapter. They comprise ‘the states called fetters, defilements, wrongnesses, worldly states, kinds of avarice, perversions, ties, bad ways, cankers, floods, bonds, *hindrances*, adherences, clingings, inherent tendencies, stains, unprofitable courses of action, and unprofitable thought-arisings’. Of course, there is a considerable amount of overlap among these various categories of akusala dhammas, but the point is that the hindrances are one among many when it comes to vipassana. But whatever interpretation on this point is the correct one, there is a far more crucial issue, and that is the relevance of all this to the development of the path. We may find there is somewhat less agreement between us on this question! Antony in his useful and perceptive post mentioned the need to stop ‘feeding’ the hindrances. I happened to come across a sutta dealing with this very point (AN X, 61 & 62). It gives a series of 10 good and 10 bad factors each of which is the nutriment for one of the other factors (‘nutriment’ here is the translation of ‘ahaara’ = 'food', although its true meaning is given as ‘strong support’ in this context). First, there is the series of factors that are responsible for our entrenched craving for becoming. It goes like this (I paraphrase slightly, from the Wisdom Publications version of the AN selection)-- - Craving for becoming has ignorance as its nutriment - Ignorance has the 5 hindrances as its nutriment - The 5 hindrances have the 3 ways of wrong conduct as their nutriment - The 3 ways of wrong conduct have lack of sense restraint as their nutriment - Lack of sense restraint has lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension as its nutriment - Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension has improper attention as its nutriment - Improper attention has lack of faith as its nutriment - Lack of faith has listening to wrong teachings as its nutriment - Listening to wrong teachings has association with bad people as its nutriment The second series gives the factors leading to liberation by supreme knowledge. These are the factors that are the opposites, or countervailing measures, to those in the first series. It goes like this— - Liberation by supreme knowledge has the 7 factors of enlightenment as its nutriment - The 7 factors of enlightenment have the 4 foundations of mindfulness as their nutriment - The 4 foundations of mindfulness have the 3 ways of good conduct as their nutriment - The 3 ways of good conduct have restraint of the senses as their nutriment - Restraint of the senses has mindfulness and clear comprehension as its nutriment - Mindfulness and clear comprehension has proper attention as its nutriment - Proper attention has faith as its nutriment - Faith has listening to true Dhamma as its nutriment - Listening to true Dhamma has association with superior people as its nutriment. Knowing which are the qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome. Dan, I do hope the pneumonia is under control and that you are making a good recovery. Looking forward to more discussion on this and/or Discouraging 2 Jon --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost despairing > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. At > the time, I thought each of his twelve points was a sharp observation > about the tone of some familiar, contemporary Abhidhamma writers' > (CAW) comments and views. He has since stopped posting to the list. I > don't know exactly what his comments were about, but I do know they > are very similar to the thoughts I have when reading CAW's and very > different from the uplifting, encouraging thoughts I have from > reading Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma). Since our friend's > famous post, several comments from CAW's have seemed to miss the mark > about why someone would find their writing discouraging. From my > memory, some of the comments have been things like: "Oh, no, Dhamma > is uplifting, but it takes courage to face it." The comments seem to > betray a confusion between "being discouraged" and "finding someone's > writing discouraging", and between "a CAW's writing" and "Buddha's > Dhamma." I never find the suttas or Abhidhamma discouraging, but I > can't say the same for CAW's. What is the difference? I think April's > despairing post from our friend outlined the points very clearly. I'd > like to take his outline and expand on it with my own examples. > Please note that my examples may well have nothing to do with what > our friend was thinking when he wrote his post and only represent my > understanding. > > But first, what exactly is a CAW? I'm going to leave the term > undefined for now because the comments I will quote will be > recognizable to most, and I do not want to prejudice those who don't > recognize the comments. > > Discouraging 1.1: "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > about the Dhamma is completely wrong." An early lesson in Dhamma is > that sensual desire (kamacchanda), ill-will (byapada), sloth and > torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca), > and sceptical doubt (vicikiccha) are hindrances (nivarana) to > spiritual development, both calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana). > The suttas and Abhidhamma often refer to the nivarana as obstacles to > overcome to attain jhana, and I don't think there would be a CAW in > disagreement there. But they are also obstacles to insight, as is > clear from both reason and practice. But is that clarity simply > micchaditthi (wrong view)? > > Some CAW's hold this view: "The nivarana that must be overcome in > order to attain jhana should not be regarded as the same nivarana > that need to be overcome in order to attain enlightenment. The > attainments/goals of the 2 kinds of development are quite different, > and so the conditions for that development and the obstacles to it > are also quite different. The overcoming of the nivarana in the > attainment of jhana is not necessarily a condition for their being > overcome in the context of insight." Does this really say that the > nivarana are not obstacles to insight? Another CAW chimes in: "The > only hindrance [to satipatthana] is the last one, ignorance. The > other hindrances are to the development of samatha only." > > This certainly goes against my experience, understanding, and > impression of my study and practice. How does it square with the > Buddha's Dhamma? After reading, contemplation, reflection, the CAW's > views do appear to be in contradiction. > > First, from Vissudhimagga (XXII, 57, Nyanamoli trans.): "The > hindrances are the five, namely lust [ill-will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt], in the sense of > obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from > consciousness." This sure makes it sound like the nivarana are > obstacles and hindrances to satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom > because satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom require clear vision of > reality and the hindrances block that clear vision. > > Was Buddhagosa just overreaching here, putting his own corrupt view > on the matter? I don't think so because everything else I've read of > his is such a reliable reflection of Buddha's Dhamma that I can't > help but think he's right here too. In any case, let's move on to the > suttas for confirmation. > > AN 5:51: [Referring to the five nivarana]: "There are five > impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify > insight….Without having overcome these five, it is impossible for a > monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to know his own > true good, the good of others, and the bood of both; nor will he be > capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive > achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of > sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and > hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, then > it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own > true good…" This is pretty unambiguous: The familiar five nivarana > are impediments and hindrances to strong insight. > > In fact, Vibhanga appears to go even a step further: In the context > of attaining jhana, Vibhanaga (508, U Thittila trans.) > states: "Abandoning these five hindrances (that are) mental > corruptions and attenuation of wisdom, he, aloof from sense > pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in the first > jhana…" As for the nivarana being the "attenuation of wisdom," > Vibhanga continues (563): "'Attenuation of wisdom' means: Because of > these five hindrances wisdom that has not arisen does not arise, also > wisdom that has arisen ceases. Therefore this is called `attenuation > of wisdom'." This seems to say that by that very attenuation of > wisdom, the nivarana prevent the establishment of jhana. > > In this case, the CAW's statements that the nivarana are not > obstacles to insight seem to be very much at odds with Buddha's > Dhamma as expressed in the suttas, commentaries, and abhidhamma. > > Is it any wonder that after reading CAW's someone might get the idea > that "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma > is completely wrong"? > > This is just one example that might be interesting to discuss. I will > write about more examples soon, health permitting (the pneumonia has > returned). > 5432 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Hi Jon, I have very little time right now, so I'll limit myself to a few quick comments. The question about the extent to which the hindrances are obstacles to insight is a crucial one, so it is important to get it right. Your post was very helpful in this regard, especially your summaries of AN X, 61 & 62. That they are particular obstacles to insight is fairly clear, both in the sense of weakening insight [granted] and "...in the sense of obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from consciousness" [Vism. XXII, 57]. As you stated, the question now is how to proceed. You have anticipated my "Discouraging 1.2" [not "Discouraging 2", though, which will deal with our friends second point instead of a second example of his first point]. You wrote: "Knowing which are the qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome." How to know them? Yes, of course we can read about them and think about them, but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', three weeks', four weeks' retreat, or at the level of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhana, this is an effective way to temporarily overcome the hindrances to a degree necessary for insight to arise. Of course, I think we can agree that the temporary suppression of the hindrances does not mean that insight NECESSARILY arises, only that it can enhance conditions for its arising. I don't see how your quote from BB's CMA is relevant. It does not address the issue of whether or how or to what extent the hindrances are obstacles to insight. Also, that "ignorance is the major obstacle to wisdom" is virtually a tautology--not all that helpful. > Dan, I do hope the pneumonia is under control and that you are making a good > recovery. I do too, but it will be some time before we know. I have run completely out of time. See you! Dan 5433 From: Herman Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 6:59pm Subject: Re: Alzheimers Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al, I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing. I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those things, but accepting they are there, from memory. We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana? Can all of these be grasped in a single moment? (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-)) With Metta Herman --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Herman, > I like these questions as I've wondered the same thing myself. > As Antony pointed out Alzheimers is no fun. > > Still I would give some other thoughts. > --- Herman wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of > > us, > > being less distracted by memories? > ______________ > it is not the memories really, that distract but the attachment > or aversion to them.`Memories are just thinking taking a > concept; and thus insight into: thinking or sanna, or the > underlying lobha or dosa or avijja that occurs at these moments > can occur. > > > > > > > Knowing the moment, does it require the past? > > > ___________________ > I would say perhaps not. If there have been accumulations of > genuine satipatthana at a level beyond the conceptual > understanding of anatta; and if satipatthana has become habitual > then why should it not continue even if memory has deteriorated. > > One could wonder though if someone who had this degree of > insight would suffer the profound loss of memory that Antony > detailed- this I don't know. > > > > > Can there be panna without sanna? > > ___________ > > Sanna arise with every citta thus even if there is the complete > loss of conventional memory sanna is arising. > > I know what you mean though. Can panna arise if there is no > memory of the Dhamma? My answer is above > > > > I'm asking because I do not know. > ______ > > So I don't know either. Just my speculation above. > robert > 5434 From: Antony Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: Alzheimers > (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a > discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every > reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-)) > > Herman you are so wise I agree with both these hypothesis. Of coursse evrything is composed of everything else, and all of them are empty. P.S. I didn't think you were making light of Alzheimers. I just raved on to show what an ugly thing it is. 5435 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) Dan --- Dan wrote: > Hi Jon, > I have very little time right now, so I'll limit myself to a few > quick comments. The question about the extent to which the hindrances > are obstacles to insight is a crucial one, so it is important to get > it right. Your post was very helpful in this regard, especially your > summaries of AN X, 61 & 62. Thanks for taking the trouble to get back with your comments. I too find the AN passage very useful. > That they are particular obstacles to insight is fairly clear, both > in the sense of weakening insight [granted] and "...in the sense of > obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from consciousness" > [Vism. XXII, 57]. Impeccable authority here. I can't argue with that. > You wrote: "Knowing which are the > qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more > craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome." How > to know them? Yes, of course we can read about them and think about > them, but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even > moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting > can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is > samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', > three weeks', four weeks' retreat, or at the level of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, > 4th jhana, this is an effective way to temporarily overcome the > hindrances to a degree necessary for insight to arise. A point for you to consider, Dan. The akusala that is a hindrance must be known or recognised as a moment of akusala if it is to be suppressed by the development of samatha. But in being so known, it is no longer "obstructing and hindering and concealing (reality) from consciousness". There is a difference here between those who have heard and understood the teaching in the present lifetime and those who have not. For the latter, the akusala nature of the moment can be known but not the intrinsic nature of the reality, so the highest level of development that can occur is the development of samatha. However, for one who is fortunate enough to have heard and understood the dhamma in this lifetime, there can be the awareness of a characteristic of the reality that appears or the studying of its true nature, and this of course is satipatthana. > You have > anticipated my "Discouraging 1.2" [not "Discouraging 2", though, > which will deal with our friends second point instead of a second > example of his first point]. Wasn't meaning to rush you! Looking forward to more on this point. Jon 5436 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Awareness of Hindrances Dear Jonothan, I like your post on the hindrances, especially where you stressed the relevance of the study of the hindrances to the development of the eightfold Path. In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by Santi Phantakeong : < If there is the firm understanding that the hindrances are dhammas which are reality, there are conditions for the arising of satipatthana which can be aware of the characteristic of a particular hindrance according to conditions. Then the akusala that is a hindrance is the object of panna which knows the truth and in that way the clinging to the view that akusala is self can be abandoned.> I would like to add that if there is no mindfulness, the hindrances, ignorance included, can weaken insight. But at the moment of mindfulness of whatever appears, be it wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala, insight can grow. There are many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness, but these moments are conditioned, because they arose also in the past, life after life. Can we notice them during the day? There is a difference between forgetfulness of realities and mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, there is no notion of my hand touching the table, but only one nama or rupa appearing through one of the six doors. Just hardness may appear through the bodysense. After that there are bound to be many moments of being absorbed in concepts such as table or hand. It is not easy to learn the difference between forgetfulness and ignorance of realities, and mindfulness of just one reality at a time. Very gradually we can begin to know the difference. More understanding of the fact that whatever arises, be it kusala or akusala, is conditioned, will help us to gradually let go of the concept that it is my akusala. I would like to quote from the "Kindred Sayings" (V, Mahavagga, Book I, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Ch VIII, the Flood) where it has been repeated with regard to all the different groups of defilements that they have to be fully comprehended. We read about the Hindrances: < Monks, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of sensual desire, the hindrance of malevolence, the hindrance of sloth and torpor, the hindrance of excitement and flurry, the hindrance of doubt and wavering. These are the five hindrances. It is for the full comprehension, realization, wearing down and abandoning that the ariyan eightfold Way must be cultivated.> In this text the hindrances are classified as fivefold, and then ignorance is not among them, but in different texts they are classified in different ways. However, there is ignorance with every kind of akusala. In the same sutta ignorance is mentioned among the five higher fetters which must be abandoned by full comprehension. With metta, Nina van Gorkom. 5437 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Alzheimers Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/3/01 7:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman writes: > Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al, > > I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think > that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience > with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old > grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing. > > I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without > memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary > for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the > conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those > things, but accepting they are there, from memory. > > We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't > quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include > Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana? Can all of these be > grasped in a single moment? > > (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a > discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every > reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-)) > > With Metta > > > Herman > =============================== You write: "We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana? Can all of these be grasped in a single moment? (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-))" You might enjoy reading some of the Theravadin academic David Kalupahana, I think. He also is suspicious of the strictly momentary view of experience, quoting William James in describing our moments as more like "saddle points" or what I would call fuzzy intervals. He also doesn't believe that a ksanavada (sp?) view is expressed by the Buddha in the suttas. In any case, it seems to me that there is no adequate grasping of objects without sa~n~na, which involves memory, and certainly there is no adequate grasping of relations without the function of memory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5438 From: celia walter Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 11:20pm Subject: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead Dear Dhamma Friends Thank you for answering my question about the transfer of merit. I have had a look at the sources you recommended. I find the explanation a bit difficult to get my "head" around as I still have a very Western mind set.BTW I am sorry I took so long to say "Thanks". Metta Celia 5439 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 1:42pm Subject: Japanese translation Dear Nina and group, I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to the wider community and five of my students have got together and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. I may put in some money towards getting it published. I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have ethical implications they really get excited. robert 5440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 2:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead Dear Celia, It would be interesting to hear more about exactly which aspect you find difficult. I found Kom's explanation to be very clear. i find it's very helpful and uplifting to rejoice in others' good deeds. When it comes to sharing one's good deeds however, it can sound like 'boasting' to my English-trained ears and I'm aware of very mixed motives if I tell anyone about a good deed. When I'm in Thailand, I find K.Sujin never talks about her good deeds, but others talk about theirs a lot and I do sometimes question the motives, but these are probably just my akusala cittas (unwholesome states) at work when they should be rejoicing!! Hope to hear more from you! Sarah --- celia walter wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends > > Thank you for answering my question about the transfer of merit. I have had > a look at the sources you recommended. I find the explanation a bit > difficult to get my "head" around as I still have a very Western mind > set.BTW I am sorry I took so long to say "Thanks". > > Metta > Celia > 5441 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 2:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Alzheimers Dear Herman, I've found this discussion interesting. This is a subject close to my heart too. I also watched a grandmother suffer from this disease. Every morning she'd get dressed in her 'Sunday best' with hat and gloves ready for church and be so disappointed when we sent her upstairs to change! All the relationships were very mixed up too and so was everything else! Recently two of my mother's closest, brightest and most deep-thinking friends have gone the same route and I just heard from a friend in Germany, Gabi, who cares for her mother with A.D., but no longer considers her as a mother and her mother seldom recognises her. As Rob pointed out, even when there seems to be no memory, there is sanna at each moment marking its object. However the samutti sacca (conventional truths) are forgotten and the sanna and thinking about the concepts are all mixed up. There are still many memories (in my grandma's case they were all early childhood ones which were amazingly clear). Whether there is any less chance of this happening to someone who has developed satipatthana, I wouldn't like to speculate. i think that anything can happen and we never know what conditions will have what effect at any given time. However, I do think that, especially in the earlier stages, there can be moments of awareness in between the other moments. There isn't forgetfulness or disease at every moment. We may forget who our family are, what our job was, how famous we were or any other worldly gains and yet there can still be moments of sati. Any disease or sickness is an excellent reminder to me to see the urgency of developing more understanding now while we have the opportunity. This will be the best 'insurance' for whatever conditions have in store for us. Best wishes, Sarah --- Herman wrote: > Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al, > > I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think > that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience > with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old > grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing. > > I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without > memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary > for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the > conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those > things, but accepting they are there, from memory. > 5442 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:10pm Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala) Dear Rob, Wyn and Jim, Apologies for raising this topic again after a long break!(originally raised by Wyn). Just to re-cap earlier posts: Wyn said:> > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: > > > > > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] > > and > > > unskilful > > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, > > skilful > > > ta.nhaa is for > > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of > > samsaric > > > activities].' [87] > Sarah said: > Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following > other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and > describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think > that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha > is for abandoning by skilful states. > For the Netthi passage above, I tried looking at the pali com. which Jim supplied but it was hopeless as my pali is very limited. So instead, I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make. She stressed that tanha is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha can be a condition for kusala. Rob pointed this out in the quote from him below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except nibbana. She mentioned, as Rob does, that attachment to kusala or for learning or dhamma is not as bad as craving for sensuous objects even though it's still not wholesome at that moment. The difference is in the degrees as a result of the object . In summary, tanha is always akusala, but the first kind may be a condition for kusala, but the second kind will not. Of course it would be better to read a pali comm supporting this explanation, but I'll have to leave that to Jim & Nina for now. Best regards, Sarah Rob said: The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I checked the pali and the English translation looks right. ............................................. We know that the vital conditions for the path are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying it. Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > Dear Wyn, > > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for > > kusala and > > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for > > pretty well > > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the > > operative word) > > preferable to have tanha towards things related to > > Dhamma > > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For > > instance, I > > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or > > Thailand to > > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with > > tanha ( some is > > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and > > this > > conditions some detachment and understanding(no > > tanha at those > > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for > > wisdom. > > --- wynn wrote: > > > Is all tanha unskilful? > Sarah said:> I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest > it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of > craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and > Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any > suggestion to the contrary. > > One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that > tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala: > 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the > Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as > condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion, > gladness and equanimity. Owing to the fulfilment of > the meditative development he is reborn in the > Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) > > Still, the tanha is akusala. > > 5443 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:13pm Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala) Dear Rob, Wyn and Jim, Apologies for raising this topic again after a long break!(originally raised by Wyn). Just to re-cap earlier posts: Wyn said:> > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: > > > > > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] > > and > > > unskilful > > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, > > skilful > > > ta.nhaa is for > > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of > > samsaric > > > activities].' [87] > Sarah said: > Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following > other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and > describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think > that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha > is for abandoning by skilful states. > For the Netthi passage above, I tried looking at the pali com. which Jim supplied but it was hopeless as my pali is very limited. So instead, I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make. She stressed that tanha is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha can be a condition for kusala. Rob pointed this out in the quote from him below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except nibbana. She mentioned, as Rob does, that attachment to kusala or for learning or dhamma is not as bad as craving for sensuous objects even though it's still not wholesome at that moment. The difference is in the degrees as a result of the object . In summary, tanha is always akusala, but the first kind may be a condition for kusala, but the second kind will not. Of course it would be better to read a pali comm supporting this explanation, but I'll have to leave that to Jim & Nina for now. Best regards, Sarah Rob said: The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I checked the pali and the English translation looks right. ............................................. We know that the vital conditions for the path are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying it. Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > Dear Wyn, > > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for > > kusala and > > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for > > pretty well > > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the > > operative word) > > preferable to have tanha towards things related to > > Dhamma > > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For > > instance, I > > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or > > Thailand to > > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with > > tanha ( some is > > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and > > this > > conditions some detachment and understanding(no > > tanha at those > > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for > > wisdom. > > --- wynn wrote: > > > Is all tanha unskilful? > Sarah said:> I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest > it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of > craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and > Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any > suggestion to the contrary. > > One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that > tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala: > 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the > Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as > condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion, > gladness and equanimity. Owing to the fulfilment of > the meditative development he is reborn in the > Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) > > Still, the tanha is akusala. > > 5444 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1)-Sarah Dear Dan, Thanks for your kind comments. This thread is fathering quite a bit of traffic and I'm still on 1.1 too! Just a couple more points: --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > It may well be true that it is the cetana that counts, and that good > intentions have good results. However, the true intention is so easily > cloaked in lobha, dosa, or moha that it is not enough to just think > about the intention and to rest easy because we think we have good > intentions. Where is the dosa, lobha, moha? Did they root enough of > the cittas to make the overall effect of the speech or thought or > action akusala? I agree with this. There is so much dosa, lobha and moha mixed in with the moments of kusala when we speak or act. Those 'cheating' dhammas trick us over and over again. With the growth of understanding more layers of the plaintain tree are shed and more akusala cittas and view of self are revealed! Another point is that even if they seem to be mostly pretty good intentions at our beginner level, it maybe that the time or manner is not appropriate for the listener. This can be especially difficult on a list. If we think too much about it, nothing will get posted! > > Hmmm.... Here's where there is a confusion between "being discouraged" > and finding someone's writing discouraging. I'm not feeling > discouraged at all. But I can see how someone who has studied Dhamma > for decades and has an intricate knowledge of the suttas, a good > working knowledge of Abhidhamma, a well-developed meditation practice, > is interested in learning Dhamma, discussing Dhamma, understanding > Dhamma might find something that obscures Dhamma and contradicts > Dhamma in the name of Dhamma discouraging. Would they be discouraged? If we hear what seems to be inaccurate or wrong view by a CAW or even one of those pesky HAABOWHATLs, why do we find it discouraging? Why not turn away or give a useful reminder or correction? Actually, doesn't this happen all the time, especially on a list? We hear many different views. To end up with the view that 'Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma is completely wrong' would not be because one thought one was reading wrong views. Surely it's because what one reads makes so much sense that one's 'own' understanding is being questioned and some of those layers of wrong view and ignorance are being revealed. As we discussed with Antony, it would depend on conditions and tendencies as to whether this new 'revelation' would condition dosa, lobha or whatever. > Yes, if they take Dhamma as not-Dhamma or not-Dhamma as Dhamma. But > when there is understanding of Dhamma, Dhamma is encouraging, while > not-Dhamma does not give rise to discouragement even though the sound > of it is discouraging .... Exactly so. It depends on the understanding. We can study for decades or lifetimes with wrong view of self. We can read all the suttas (or even the abhidhamma) with an idea of self, even if we talk about anatta. Of course sound is only sound. The hearing which hears the sound is kusala or akusala vipaka resulting from previous kamma. There is nothing discouraging in the sound. It is the thinking and the stories about what has been heard, accompanied by the dosa and domanassa that are discouraging......or 'bad news'. Dan, i've run out of time, but will be happy to follow on later if you wish... Hope you're doing O.K. Sarah 5445 From: Erik Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only list I have at present is here: http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been able to find, and I know there are many more. On that note, the classification process of dhammas and categories has been quite straightforward so far. The Abhidhamma's categories saves me from perhaps the biggest headache in creating any KR (Knowledge Representation) system: definitng a useful taxonomy of phenomena and their inter-dependencies. Fortunately, this has already been done by the Abhidhamma compilers to such a high degree it is only monkey-work for me to type this in at this point. Last, if anyone knows of a place willing to donate web server space and CPU power to run the application (WinNT/Linux/FreeBSD), I'd also greatly appreciate this. Nothing is ready at the moment, so there's no immediate need. Thanks again, Erik 5446 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 8:12pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions Hi C.L., I wrote to you earlier too, but was having computer probs which seemed to result in another post going out twice and yours getting lost!! . the key word here > is SLOWLY... sigh... I think might not be able to achieve in convincing that > Dhamma is the way .. in such a short while.. Dhamma advises on showing the > way by setting an example for oneself.... guess there is no other way huh ? That's about it! > I agree with you that to develop own understanding for our own good .... but > somehow I am sure with the worldly life's attachments... all of us wants the > best for our loved ones even religion wise even they don't see the > benefits.... what do you think ? Different moments! In other words, sometimes we genuinely act and speak for the other's benefit, but so often it is attachment speaking.....do we really want to face up to the truth and understand the different mental states and other realities for what they are?? Sometimes we're very concerned about the others' beliefs and views and wrong ideas and intentions, but there's no understanding of 'our own' thinking, seeing hearing, attachment or whatever is 'real' at that moment! Keep teling us what you think, Sarah 5447 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation Rob --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Nina and group, > I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to > the wider community and five of my students have got together > and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have > finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. A very worthwhile project. Let's hope they do see it through. I immediately thought of Tadao Miyamoto (ex-monk Jetananda) who is very familiar with the subject matter and is also somehing of a Pali scholar (or was). If you think it would be useful to have your students' work looked over, Tadao would be a likely candidate. (He may even have started dong some translation work many years ago - long since forgotten I'm sure.) Jon I may > put in some money towards getting it published. > I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly > get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often > western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have > ethical implications they really get excited. > robert 5448 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation Jon, thanks. Could you look into this further later.Perhaps you could write Tadao and ask if he has done anything and whether he would help. They expect to finish it around december. robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > Dear > Nina and group, > > I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open > to > > the wider community and five of my students have got > together > > and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have > > finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. > > A very worthwhile project. Let's hope they do see it through. > > I immediately thought of Tadao Miyamoto (ex-monk Jetananda) > who is very > familiar with the subject matter and is also somehing of a > Pali scholar > (or was). If you think it would be useful to have your > students' work > looked over, Tadao would be a likely candidate. (He may even > have started > dong some translation work many years ago - long since > forgotten I'm > sure.) > > Jon > > I may > > put in some money towards getting it published. > > I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they > quickly > > get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often > > western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions > have > > ethical implications they really get excited. > > robert > 5449 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project Erik I thought your project sounded very worthwhile, if I understand it correctly, not being particularly computer-savvy myself. A sort of concise database summary of the Abhidhamma with hotlinks? Quite a task you have set yourself (so many different conditions and combinations possible for each reality), but I wish you the best with it. Jon PS What are the categories and matrices you refer to below - if you could elaborate a bit I'd be pleased to help if i can. --- Erik wrote: > > Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need > some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can > find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall > reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to > find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only > list I have at present is here: > http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm > > If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma > categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really > the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this > I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been > able to find, and I know there are many more. > > On that note, the classification process of dhammas and categories > has been quite straightforward so far. The Abhidhamma's categories > saves me from perhaps the biggest headache in creating any KR > (Knowledge Representation) system: definitng a useful taxonomy of > phenomena and their inter-dependencies. Fortunately, this has already > been done by the Abhidhamma compilers to such a high degree it is > only monkey-work for me to type this in at this point. > > Last, if anyone knows of a place willing to donate web server space > and CPU power to run the application (WinNT/Linux/FreeBSD), I'd also > greatly appreciate this. Nothing is ready at the moment, so there's > no immediate need. > > Thanks again, > Erik 5450 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Jon, thanks. > Could you look into this further later.Perhaps you could write > Tadao and ask if he has done anything and whether he would help. > They expect to finish it around december. > robert I'd be happy to. I'll let you know what happens, and will follow up off-list. J > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob > > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > Dear > > Nina and group, > > > I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open > > to > > > the wider community and five of my students have got > > together > > > and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have > > > finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. > > > > A very worthwhile project. Let's hope they do see it through. > > > > I immediately thought of Tadao Miyamoto (ex-monk Jetananda) > > who is very > > familiar with the subject matter and is also somehing of a > > Pali scholar > > (or was). If you think it would be useful to have your > > students' work > > looked over, Tadao would be a likely candidate. (He may even > > have started > > dong some translation work many years ago - long since > > forgotten I'm > > sure.) > > > > Jon > > > > I may > > > put in some money towards getting it published. > > > I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they > > quickly > > > get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often > > > western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions > > have > > > ethical implications they really get excited. > > > robert > > 5451 From: Paul Bail Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:02pm Subject: Subject: Awareness of Hindrances (Lexicon) Nina wrote: "In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by Santi Phantakeong " Question: Is this Lexicon available only in Thai? If not, is it currently available somewhere? Thanks Paul Bail, lurker 5452 From: Paul Bail Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:02pm Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala) Sarah wrote: >>I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make.She stressed that tanha is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha can be a conditionfor kusala. Rob pointed this out in the quote from him below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except nibbana. Question: Since one can wish for, aspire to, or desire (one's concept of) nibbana, why can nibbana not be an oject of attachment? Thanks Paul Bail 5453 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 10:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala) Dear Paul, the concept of nibbana can be, and for Buddhists often is, a object for attachment. But the actual dhamma that is nibbana cannot be. robert --- Paul Bail wrote: > Sarah wrote: > >>I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun > sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make.She > stressed that tanha > is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if > there are the > proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), > then the tanha > can be a conditionfor kusala. Rob pointed this out in the > quote from him > below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except > nibbana. > > Question: > Since one can wish for, aspire to, or desire (one's concept > of) nibbana, why > can nibbana not be an oject of attachment? > > Thanks > Paul Bail > 5454 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 10:58pm Subject: Re: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead (boasting/dhana?) Dear Sarah, This aspect of dhana is pretty interesting and delicate. 1) I found myself sometimes wondering about the motives of persons telling me about their good deeds. On the other hand, we know that this doubt is most certainly the hearer's akusala, and that there *must* be kusala for the giver at the moment of the actual dhana. So speculating about other people's motive at the time of the telling is somewhat moot as we can almost never be certain (unless the person really does it excessively?). 2) I have listened to some tape made by T.A. Sujin talking about some people who takes the dana up to a finer level: the person would explain the details about the dana and sometimes actually showing the other person the dana objects for the other to have the opportunity to have even stronger (somannassa and piti) anumoddhana! 3) There are many suttas about people in the suttas "raising their flag" just because of one good quality/achievement they have. We know that mana can be the motive of such deed. 4) It is almost as effective to tell of others' kusalas giving the opportunities for others to rejoice. I personally found the teller's motive to be more often purer (not always!), and the hearer's rejoicing to come easier. Of course, there is always the problem with the attachment to the associations of certain people (telling of only my friend's good deeds but not others). 5) For just observing her for the time that we spent with her, she hardly needs to say what good deeds she has done as they come across without being told! Seeing it has much higher quality for rejoicing than hearing about it. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > When I'm in Thailand, I find K.Sujin never talks about her good deeds, but others talk about > theirs a lot and I do sometimes question the motives, but these are probably just my akusala > cittas (unwholesome states) at work when they should be rejoicing!! > > Hope to hear more from you! > > Sarah 5455 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)-Sarah Hi Sarah, A few quick comments-- You wrote: > Actually, doesn't this happen all the time, especially on a list? We hear many different views. To > end up with the view that 'Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma is > completely wrong' would not be because one thought one was reading wrong views. Surely it's > because what one reads makes so much sense that one's 'own' understanding is being questioned and > some of those layers of wrong view and ignorance are being revealed. I'm not sure what our friend was thinking when he wrote those comments, and I'm not going to speculate about it. For me, the points 2-12 are very interesting because they are so absurd yet so much resemble CAW's comments that I wanted to discuss them further. Dan 5456 From: Erik Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 11:36pm Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > I thought your project sounded very worthwhile, if I understand it > correctly, not being particularly computer-savvy myself. A sort of > concise database summary of the Abhidhamma with hotlinks? Quite a task > you have set yourself (so many different conditions and combinations > possible for each reality), but I wish you the best with it. I know the Thai recension of the Patthana is some 6,000 pages of relations, so I realize the size of the task, if the aim is to capture ALL the Abhidhamma. That is not within the scope of my abilities or time; if this is going to happen it will have to be collaborative. I am more concerned with getting the core categories and relations added for now. That will make it useful ennpough, I think, for the project to gain the sort of critical mass it wil need for others to consider donating time to fill out the database. More dhammas, categories, and relations can be added piecemeal with a web-based ontology editor, which will allow for the creation of new categories and relations by various contributors. This sort of thing is already being done, and I'm basing this on software that provides both a web-based browser for all these categories and relations as well as an ontology editor--all through the web. > PS What are the categories and matrices you refer to below - if you could > elaborate a bit I'd be pleased to help if i can. As far as I have been able to discern, there are 122 major categories in the Abhidhamma. This would include the 89/212 cittas, 52 cetasikas, PLUS, all the categories they fall into (for example virati-cetasikas). Example classification hierarchy: cetasikas: sobhana sadharana appamanna karunaa muditaa virati sammaa-vaca sammaa-kammanta sammaa-ajiva Presumably there are also tables listing all the Dukas and Tikas I can work from. Basically, any information with canonical categories and relations will be most helpful. Thanks again, Erik 5457 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 0:15am Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] > A point for you to consider, Dan. The akusala that is a hindrance must be > known or recognised as a moment of akusala if it is to be suppressed by > the development of samatha. But in being so known, it is no longer > "obstructing and hindering and concealing (reality) from consciousness". Yes, but it doesn't take a Buddha to notice that the hindrances are hindrances. If knowing were simply a yes-no thing, then why all this talk about "attenuation" and "weakening" of insight? > There is a difference here between those who have heard and understood the > teaching in the present lifetime and those who have not. For the latter, > the akusala nature of the moment can be known but not the intrinsic nature > of the reality, so the highest level of development that can occur is the > development of samatha. Don't underrate the development of samatha! If a Buddhist develops samatha by observing the hindrances while sitting quietly, legs crossed, eyes closed, this opens the door for insight (but of course, it doesn't mean that insight necessarily arises). Dan 5458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Subject: Awareness of Hindrances (Lexicon) op 04-06-2001 16:02 schreef Paul Bail op Paul Bail: > Nina wrote: "In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon > explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by > Santi Phantakeong " > > Question: Is this Lexicon available only in Thai? If not, is it currently > available somewhere? > Dear Paul, the Lexicon is only in Thai, and it is not printed in bookform. I am glad you are interested, I shall quote more often. Santi is a wonderful teacher and Pali scholar, and has deep understanding of the Dhamma. He does not speak English yet. In India I shall approach him with a lot of Dhamma questions again. He gives an explanation of the deep meaning of Pali terms and he always keeps in mind the goal of learning: understanding of the realities which appear. He is a great assistant to Acharn Sujin. By the way, Paul, one may believe to be attached to the unconditioned reality nibbana, but in fact one is only attached to a concept, pa`n`natti, which is not a reality, not a paramattha dhamma. Just a product of thinking. Nibbana is the end of attachment. Nina. 5459 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project Erik, >Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need >some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can >find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall >reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to >find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only >list I have at present is here: >http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm > >If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma >categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really >the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this >I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been >able to find, and I know there are many more. Perhaps you are thinking of the categories in the maatikaa. The 122 categories agrees with the total of 22 triplets + 100 couplets. The primary source for these are found in the matikaa at the beginning of the Dhammasangani: tikamaatikaa: 22 triplets beginning with the kusala triplet. dukamaatikaa: abhidhammadukamaatikaa: 100 couplets beginning with the hetu group suttantikadukamaatikaa: 42 couplets The Dhammasangani explains them all but only goes into full detail with the first triplet. My Indian edition of the Patthana takes up 6 volumes of about 400 pp. each. It poses approximately 400 billion questions but a great many of them are not valid ones and consequently left unanswered. Best wishes to your project, Jim 5460 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 5:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] intro and appeal Dear Tori Dear group I was very surprised and gratified by the compassionate gesture of Tori writing an appeal to the list on my benefit. She has been lately witnessing my struggles and trials here in London and has helped me both emotionally and materially in various opportunities even if we met vis a vis only a short time ago. Thank you for the concern of the few members who have contacted me off list. Much appreciated your support. I was quite wary of disclosing such confidential facts of my life in a list but Tori and Amara had persuaded me to share. Well here I am stripping myself psychologically; sorry if the vision offends your modesty. Since long I have been suffering from clinical depression but I managed to cope with Vipassana meditation, the strenght of Dhamma plus my quite volitive character but now I am under a very severe depressive crisis and went to search proper medical assistance here in London while experiencing an upsetting nervous breakdown and where I am presently stuck having come from Southeast Asia on a job assignment. The psychiatrist diagnosed recurrent depression and prescribed antidepressants plus advised resorting to cognitive therapy (that I cannot afford but I joined some self help groups of sufferers here in London as well a discussion list on Buddhism and depression) but so far I did not perceive any effect and is more than five weeks I have been taking the drugs increasing the dosage. I am completely disempowered and unable to work and I don't have savings, therefore my situation is pretty gloomy. Depression is a very complex mood disorder extremely painful and overwhelming; it crushes you down, it's a malignant sadness. I was amazed with Victoria and her public appeal (all her initiative and concern) but as I could have guessed very few people contacted me for any kind of support whether emotional or material. Compassion is a such an uplifting concept but achieving it is another story made of right effort and warm hearts. Well here am I trying my best to cope dear dhamma friends but as I don't have any family to help me (I am originally from Brazil for those who doesn't know me and orphan) I am staying with friends here and there (pissing them off I suppose being intrusive in their privacy) as I cannot afford a lodge in this expensive country and I am feeling too fragile and vulnerable to move away. I am searching for homeless centers and buddhist shelters because I cannot depend on this friends and their generosity; I don't want to become a burden to anybody but I am ill and must give the priority to healing and all this material mess is aggravating my mental struggles but that is my reality right now. I always relied on my inner resources to lead my life as kamma has heavily challenged me on the material plane but now I simply cannot work to earn my living and therefore I am broken: natural equation but still I confide in Dhamma to sort out it in the most beneficial way. I particularly ask the interest and support from the British members of the list as they could give me precious information about Buddhist centers in London or elsewhere in England that could help me either for the lodge issue as for the search of any particular center that deals with Buddhism and depression and have an specific healing program. I am focusing (for what I manage to achieve in concentration) on developing acceptance of my predicament, of my heartache and saying 'good morning heartache'! Please send me metta dhamma friends and never, never minimize or be condescending about depression: this devastating melancholy is like a cancer spreading inside you. I am like bleeding inside and cannot do anything but accept it, all the pain and the grief. I believe that depression is never only due to chemical imbalance but is a sinergy of many factors: brain chemistry and psychological issues as past kammic accumulations. Love and respect Cybele >From: Tori Korshak >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] intro and appeal >Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:59:58 +0100 > > >Dear Group, > >I am a lurker here attempting the transition to occasional contributor. I >live in London with my husband and two grown children who still live at >home although both are gainfully employed. They are not Buddhists although >they know a lot of Dhamma from having to live with me, so at least it's not >like a foreign language. > >I gain a lot from this list. In particular, the practical application of >Abhidhamma has changed my practice. Many people seem to find Abhidhamma >very dry, enumerative, and abstract, but with your help, I find this is >less and less true for me, for example Robert's post on Kamma-Vatta from 25 >May. Robert and Sarah have tried to coax me out of my seclusion, but until >now I haven't been up to it. For me, all theory must be useful and grounded >in real life experience, stepping out of the merely intellectual (or >solipisistic) into the world we live in, otherwise what's it all for? > >Many thanks to all. >Metta, >Victoria > >P.S. I am concerned about the plight of Cybele who is ill and about to be >made homeless. I know some members have generously helped her already. If >there are any others who would like to make even the smallest contribution >I know it would be much appreciated and carefully used. >Feel free to write me off list if you prefer or write to Cybele directly. > 5461 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 8:45am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > Different moments! In other words, sometimes we genuinely act and speak > for the other's benefit, > but so often it is attachment speaking.....do we really want to face up to > the truth and > understand the different mental states and other realities for what they > are?? Sometimes we're > very concerned about the others' beliefs and views and wrong ideas and > intentions, but there's no > understanding of 'our own' thinking, seeing hearing, attachment or > whatever is 'real' at that > moment! > > Keep teling us what you think, > > Sarah > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] sarah.... the last few lines is not making any sense for me.. either it is first early working morning day thing or I am truly blur.. please help to elaborate..... thanks Loke 5462 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 8:51am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation robert you raised an interesting question.. took the words right out of my mouth.. "How do Western people get past doubts about past and future lives ?" loke > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert] > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 1:42 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation > > Dear Nina and group, > I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to > the wider community and five of my students have got together > and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have > finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. I may > put in some money towards getting it published. > I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly > get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often > western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have > ethical implications they really get excited. > robert > 5463 From: Purnomo . Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Thank for your detail. May I ask once again ? I mean that however we be smart about Abhidhamma, but we don't approach Samadhi(meditation) so we be smart for theory only. My point is practice not theory. I know, Abhidhamma is important but you have to know that abhidhamma born from pracrice/experience. Don't you change, theory then practice. And it's most important that The Buddha Sakyamuni have found dhamma on his effort and experince. So, we could find that what all The Buddha told are based on his experince. So, we can find dhamma not from theory(Abhidhamma) but from your effort by meditation. And we must know, every body have got experience theirself. Remember, we have the same of goal, but we have different way to achieve it. These sentences macth what The Buddha said. Be happier, be better everyday Metta, Purnomo >From: Nina van Gorkom >>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths >Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:18:27 +0200 > > Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / > Purnomo wrote: > >I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help >your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most >important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not >important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, >be happier, be better every day metta, >Purnomo > >Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep. >You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond >our >daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the >essence of the Buddhašs teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to people so >that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble >Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble >Truths? >The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright >understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We >see >and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account >of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise >already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit >bad >deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is >Abhidhamma. >Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us >off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that >people could develop understanding of their life. We think of and >other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The >Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no >self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been >cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there >are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears, >nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who >experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just >sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past >kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant >object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala >kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma >teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life >arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been >developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only >elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa. >You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. >The >Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words >adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the >truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and >the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six >doors. >We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic >understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to >read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends >on >the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is >Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the >monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The >Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of >the Buddha. >Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha, >suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away >of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is >dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other >realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a >time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long >process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. >Seeing >arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible >object >and hearing sound; seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the >earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different >conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the >teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the >Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of >understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this >moment. >This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The >practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of >satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of >direct >understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of >the four noble Truths. >The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the >condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the >Dependant >Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our >going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We >cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the >four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana, >can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but >this is a long process. >If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of >questioning. >With metta, Nina van Gorkom. > > > > > > > 5464 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:41pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions Dear C.L., I'll try!! --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > > > Different moments! In other words, sometimes we genuinely act and speak > > for the other's benefit, > > but so often it is attachment speaking.....do we really want to face up to > > the truth and > > understand the different mental states and other realities for what they > > are?? Sometimes we're > > very concerned about the others' beliefs and views and wrong ideas and > > intentions, but there's no > > understanding of 'our own' thinking, seeing hearing, attachment or > > whatever is 'real' at that > > moment! [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] sarah.... the last few lines is not > making any sense for me.. either it is first early working morning day thing > or I am truly blur.. please help to elaborate..... We talk about the love we have for our family , our close friends and loved ones. We would like them to be happy, healthy, successful and wise. We consider it a problem when they're not and in the particular case you're discussing, when a loved one doesn't appreciate the Buddha's teachings as we do. There are two points I was trying to make: 1. Are we just concerned because it is 'our' loved one that we care so much about? Would we mind if it were someone else we met? The minding and disappointment if we're not able to 'persuade' them of the 'true path' gives an indication of the strong attachment which is apparent at that time. When there is genuine care and concern or metta, there is no expectation at that time, no minding or disappointment about the other's reaction. Of course it's very natural to have lots of attachment to these people, but isn't it better to begin to recognise it? 2. We are very used to thinking of problems in life as being connected to other people. 'If only they would understand as we do' or 'appreciate where I'm at' or 'get over their wrong views' or 'just be different from how they are'. In our studies and practice of the dhamma. we learn to understand what really is being experienced at these and other moments. When we think like this, the reality is thinking, which thinks about so many different stories, accompanied (usually) by lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance). In between these thoughts there is seeing, hearing and many other phenomena. The extraordinary fact is that, with the aid of the dhamma, it is possible for panna (wisdom) to get to know these realites, the mental and physical phenomena that make up or lives. We begin to know what the real problems in life are. However, it's not easy to 'face up to the truth', i.e to be aware of realities, to get to know them as not self and to see how often it is the attachment rather than the other person's view that is the problem. What I meant earlier was that as this understanding deepens, it'll be easier to help others with our words and hopefully, with our example. Sometimes it takes a lot of patience where a loved one is concerned, however! Best wishes and I hope this makes a little more sense. Sarah 5465 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 3:00pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions Sarah thank you for your detail explanation..... I have some replies below.... > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott [SMTP:Sarah ] > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 2:41 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > > Dear C.L., > > I'll try!! > > There are two points I was trying to make: > > 1. Are we just concerned because it is 'our' loved one that we care so > much about? Would we mind > if it were someone else we met? The minding and disappointment if we're > not able to 'persuade' > them of the 'true path' gives an indication of the strong attachment which > is apparent at that > time. When there is genuine care and concern or metta, there is no > expectation at that time, no > minding or disappointment about the other's reaction. Of course it's very > natural to have lots of > attachment to these people, but isn't it better to begin to recognise it? > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] I get your point but I have a further question... say someone I care is not the same faith or rather not seeing what we are seeing... and doing some practise that are not in accordance to the precepts.... and knowing the Dhamma we can know the implications of this action's kamma be it good or bad.... usually it is the bad that gets us worried and troubled.... I know this is attachment to one thing or the other...... I know that this is the attachment of wanting our spouse to have better kamma... maybe better planes of existence... or maybe a better ripening of good kamma.. ( I hope I didn't confuse you as I try to avoid too much of Pali words.. I have no reference at the moment ) > 2. We are very used to thinking of problems in life as being connected to > other people. 'If only > they would understand as we do' or 'appreciate where I'm at' or 'get over > their wrong views' or > 'just be different from how they are'. In our studies and practice of the > dhamma. we learn to > understand what really is being experienced at these and other moments. > When we think like this, > the reality is thinking, which thinks about so many different stories, > accompanied (usually) by > lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance). In between these > thoughts there is > seeing, hearing and many other phenomena. > > The extraordinary fact is that, with the aid of the dhamma, it is possible > for panna (wisdom) to > get to know these realites, the mental and physical phenomena that make up > or lives. We begin to > know what the real problems in life are. However, it's not easy to 'face > up to the truth', i.e to > be aware of realities, to get to know them as not self and to see how > often it is the attachment > rather than the other person's view that is the problem. > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] I am still confuse at this face up to the truth.. you mean me ? what truth ? Is it about mental phenomena of seeing hearing etc etc.... ? > What I meant earlier was that as this understanding deepens, it'll be > easier to help others with > our words and hopefully, with our example. Sometimes it takes a lot of > patience where a loved one > is concerned, however! > > Best wishes and I hope this makes a little more sense. > > Sarah > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] thank you for answering my questions...... rgds, Loke CL 5466 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 3:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana Dear Num, > Regarding ekaggata and manasikra, I still cannot grasp the difference that > clear. Like dosa and dommanassa, each pair of those cetasika always arise > together amd share some similarities. Erik added some helpful comments about these cetasikas (mental factors). I'll just add a little more. As you say, they're both 'universal cetasikas' arise with every citta (moment of consciousness). This is very important to understand as so often we have the idea that there's no concentration (ekaggata) or attention(manasikara) at certain times of the day, whereas these particular realities arise at each moment, even when there seems to be no memory conventionally or when we're in a real daze! With regard to manasikara (attention) cetasika, of course it can be kusala, akusala , vipaka or kiriya as all universal cetasikas can. The Atthasalini (1.1V,ch1,133) says: 'that which regulates the object is called attention because it makes (the object) in the mind. It has the characteristic of driving associated states to the object, the manifestation of facing the object. It is included in the aggregate of mental coefficients, and should be regarded as the charioteer of associated states because it regulates the object'. I was checking a different point in the Vibhanga the other day and came across this definition of ayonisomanasikara (unwise attention), Analysis of Small Items, par936: 'Therein what is 'improper attention'? There is improper attention thus, 'In impermanence there is permanence'; therre is improper attention thus, 'In pain there is pleasure';...'In absence of soul there is a soul';...,'In absence of beauty there is beasuty'; or, turning of the mind, repeated turning, cognition, advertence, attention to what is contrary to truth. This is called improper attention.' >I agree with Nina's very insightful > response to my question that awareness and thinking or calling the name of > the reality is a totally different thing. But to me, personally, if I > cannot call what I feel, I think I do not really know what I am feeling or > thinking about. Long way to go. Sometimes it seems th at if we can't work it all out intellectually or put a label on what is being experienced that awareness cannot grow. However, sometimes when we're trying to 'grasp the difference' and lost in the world of concepts, there can be awareness of thinking at that moment too. A moment of awareness now is more precious than the 'working it out' with no awareness at all. As we've discussed and can see on the list, we all have such different interests. You and Kom, for example, have a very keen interest in hearing a lot of details and find this helpful. For others it's the opposite. I've never read any of the abhidhamma texts from cover to cover and have also gone very slowly on the details. I don't think there is a rule. > > I ask myself at time, should I ask this kind of question. I do ask myself a > whole lot more of questions!!!! I know! I'm sure we only hear a small percentage of them! Actually, I used to have a lot of questions and I remember once when I lived in England, k.Sujin visited me and told me 'K.Sarah, you think too much!' It took many years before I fully appreciated what she meant. Thinking is a reality which can be known and of course it's not a matter of not thinking or even thinking less. But if we have the idea that we can 'work out' the answers or 'get it' by thinking, we forget about awareness of the reality which is conditioned already. Last Thursday I was in a very good mood when some workmen came in to do a job in my flat efficiently and tidily. Of course I didn't complain about the work or my lobha. The next day some other workmen came in to erect scaffolding and change an air-conditioner. There were all sorts of problems. They had brought the wrong parts, they damaged a wooden floor and some paintwork. I complained loudly not only about the work but the stress I was being caused! There was lots of dosa and domanassa and some awareness of it and useful reflection in between. We know (in theory) that domanassa only feels (unpleasant) and is different from dosa but of course it's very difficult to be aware of which is which. This doesn't mean that there cannot be awareness of the 'unpleasantness being experienced' at a given moment because it can't be labelled. Listening, reading, thinking and > understanding is totally different reality. There are couple more pairs of > cetasika, that I still have a doubt. Well, we have the next group raised by Erik of vitakka, vicara and adhimokka when we have the time and energy too!! Num, no one replied about 'Cetasikas', Nina's book, so I wonder if it's out of print? Never mind, another opportunity for patience! > Thank you and always appreciate your response. Always appreciate hearing from you too! Sarah p.s Did you read those complicated kammajarupa related posts I sent you? Did they make any sense I wonder? (Not that I'd be able to elaborate!!) 5467 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 7:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project dear eric, I am thinking since you are not familiar with abhdhammapitaka .How can you do a project like this?it seems you do not know even the basic.it may be confusing to many people.Just let the book and tran. speak even the text give wrong reading.i am sorry if this is unpolite. -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Anderson" Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:55:04 -0400 To: Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project > Erik, > > >Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need > >some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can > >find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall > >reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to > >find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only > >list I have at present is here: > >http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm > > > >If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma > >categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really > >the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this > >I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been > >able to find, and I know there are many more. > > Perhaps you are thinking of the categories in the maatikaa. The 122 > categories agrees with the total of 22 triplets + 100 couplets. The primary > source for these are found in the matikaa at the beginning of the > Dhammasangani: > > tikamaatikaa: 22 triplets beginning with the kusala triplet. > dukamaatikaa: > abhidhammadukamaatikaa: 100 couplets beginning with the hetu group > suttantikadukamaatikaa: 42 couplets > > The Dhammasangani explains them all but only goes into full detail with the > first triplet. My Indian edition of the Patthana takes up 6 volumes of about > 400 pp. each. It poses approximately 400 billion questions but a great many > of them are not valid ones and consequently left unanswered. > > Best wishes to your project, > Jim > 5468 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 1:26am Subject: attention and concentration Dear Num, Some time ago you wrote that you were wondering about the Dear Num, some time ago you wrote that you were wondering about the difference between the cetasikas concentration and attention. They seem to be very close. Concentration (ekaggata cetasika or samadhi) and attention (manasikara) belong to the group of cetasikas which are the seven , accompanying each and every citta. Concentration and attention accompany each citta, but they have each a different characteristic and different function. Concentration focusses or concentrates on the object, it is the condition for the citta to experience only one object at a time. When seeing arises, the citta experiences only visible object, it cannot experiences sound or a concept or idea at the same time. Attention turns the citta and accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) towards the object, it joins them to the object. It has its own task while it assists the citta in cognizing the object. It is attention to whatever object presents itself through one of the six doors. When we read the definitions of the different cetasikas we may have doubts about the difference between them, but one thing is clear, each citta needs several cetasikas which assist it to cognize an object. Similes are used in commentaries and subcommentaries. Attention, manasikara, is compared to a charioteer who sits with close attention on two well-trained horses(mind and object) as regards their rhythmitical movements... (Manual of Abhidhamma, Ven. Narada, and see also the Thai edition, book 2, of the commentary to the Abhidhammatta Sangaha and the Appendix containing subcommentarial material, edited and translated by Acharn Somporn and others). When we read, there are many types of citta accompanied by different cetasikas, among them concentration and attention performing each their own function. There is seeing, a citta experiencing visible object through the eyes. Concentration and attention assist the citta, each in their own way, so that it cognizes visible object. There is not only seeing, there are cittas which think of the letters, their meaning, cittas which associate meanings. Thinking is done by either kusala citta or akusala citta. Kusala cittas think of the meaning of what is read when we study the Dhamma in order to have more understanding. They are accompanied by concentration and attention, and by other cetasikas, each performing their functions. There are bound to be many moments of akusala cittas which think: there may be attachment to visible object, even before we know what it is that is seen, and there may be attachment to seeing, we like to see. All such moments are accompanied by concentration and attention, performing their functions. When reading the definitions of cetasikas such as attention and concentration we are bound to wonder what their characteristics are. Is it necessary to study all those details, will it help us in our daily life? The Buddha penetrated thoroughly the characteristics of all dhammas, and their functions, and he knew the characteristics of each of these dhammas separately, he taught them in detail. It depends on the inclinations of the individual what he will study and what he can understand. There is no rule about this. Acharn Sujin stressed that some people study little but develop deep understanding of realities which appear, whereas others read and study a great deal but do not develop understanding of the present reality. When we read about the characteristics and functions of the different cetasikas we can be reminded of the intricacy of citta which cognizes an object and needs the assistance of several cetasikas. Attention and concentration belong to the , the cetasikas which accompany each citta. They accompany kusala (wholesome) citta, akusala (unwholesome) citta, citta which is result,vipakacitta and inoperative citta kiriyacitta. As the universals accompany such a variety of cittas they are in each case of an entirely different quality. Attention accompanying seeing is only vipaka, result, and attention with attachment is akusala, thus, entirely different. We can have more understanding of the fact that citta is conditioned by cetasikas and that cetasikas are conditioned by citta. The dhammas which arise are dependent on conditions, they are beyond control. The study can be a condition to develop more understanding of the truth of non-self, anatta. It is important to know that concentration accompanies each citta. It can also accompany unwholesome citta, akusala citta. In that case it is wrong concentration. If we do not know this we may believe that just concentration on any object, even without panna, is the development of samatha. Concentration in samatha has to be accompanied by understanding (panna), and it concentrates on the meditation subject with steadfastness. Concentration in vipassana is different again: it accompanies panna and mindfulness (sati) and it focusses on one object: either nama or rupa, just one at a time. Concentration is one among several other cetasikas performing its function and then it is gone, another concentration arises. If we understand this it can keep us from trying to concentrate on particular objects of awareness. Then we delude ourselves and this is counteractive to the development of understanding. Thus, even if we find the definitions of realities in the Abhidhamma difficult and we cannot grasp everything, the study of the Abhidhamma can really help us to correct our misunderstandings about realities. They are more complex than we thought at first, but it is a gain to realize this (no reason for discouragement!). The commentary to the (in the Thai edition) deals with the difference between thinking (vitakka), volition (cetana) and attention (manasikara). This passage contains a warning not to practise in an unnatural way (in Thai: phid pokketi) as to those dhammas. One should not go astray and get absorbed in a foolish way. Acharn Sujin warned us again and again not to go beyond the limits of what we can understand, we should know our own limits. We should not forget the purpose of the study: more understanding of the dhammas which appear now. I shall quote something from the book containing Acharn Sujinšs lectures in Cambodia: < Realities are present all the time, also now at this moment. When we study the Dhamma we study actually realities, but we develop only theoretical knowledge of them. Dhammas are real, but if the Exalted One, the Buddha, had not attained enlightenment, nobody would know that what one is used to taking for self, the world and different things are in reality only different dhammas> I would like to add something about concepts. You find that they are deceptive. It depends on the citta which thinks of them. Concept, pa~n~natti, can stand for: term or word, and also for the idea conveyed by a term. The terms nama and rupa are concepts but they make known realities. But if we do not develop understanding we shall keep on thinking of the words nama and rupa, without realizing the true nature of the realities they represent. I have to correct something I wrote to Paul about attachment to the concept of nibbana, mentioning that concept is a product of our thinking. As I just said, concept can be a term or it can be an idea conveyed by a term. The terms for nibbana used in the teachings are right: an unconditioned reality, the end of all defilements. But there can be wrong thinking of the concept of nibbana, for example if one thinks of it as a special place where one can go to, if one speculates about it. There can also be thinking with understanding of the concept nibbana, as an unconditioned reality.When understanding of conditioned realities has been thoroughly developed, supramundane citta, lokuttara citta, can arise, which experiences directly nibbana, the unconditioned reality. With metta, Nina. 5469 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 2:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] intro and appeal Dear Cybele and Group, I am very sorry to hear that your situation is still so difficult and you remain very depressed. -- cybele chiodi wrote: > > I am focusing (for what I manage to achieve in concentration) on developing > acceptance of my predicament, of my heartache and saying 'good morning > heartache'! Yes, I believe too we just have to accept whatever comes our way. We don't know what illness or anguish will come at any given time. Conditions are so complex. We have little choice but to develop more patience and detachment to whatever is experienced now. > I am like bleeding inside and cannot do anything but accept it, all the pain > and the grief. > I believe that depression is never only due to chemical imbalance but is a > sinergy of many factors: brain chemistry and psychological issues as past > kammic accumulations. As you say, there are a combination of factors and conditions which make this moment and the experience as it is now just like that. It cannot be any other way just as a soup cannot be any different given the ingredients and the cooking! Just hoping your soup tastes better tomorrow! Fortunately you have heard about the dhamma and have some idea about cause and effect. You also realise that when we talk about being depressed for a day, a week or a month that there are so many different experiences and they're not all bad! ;-)) I've been reflecting on the 8 worldly conditions which we are all so susceptible to. In the Ang.Nik. (Gradual Sayings), Bk of 8s,1,5: 'Monks, these eight worldly conditions obsess the world; the world revolves around these eight wordly conditions. What eight? Gain and loss, fame and obscurity, blame and praise, contentment and pain...' isn't it so true that while we live in ignorance we are overwhelmed by the 'woldly conditions'. At moments of understanding there is a glimmer of light which helps us to see the danger of being caught or obsessed with them. > I particularly ask the interest and support from the British members of the > list as they could give me precious information about Buddhist centers in > London or elsewhere in England that could help me either for the lodge issue > as for the search of any particular center that deals with Buddhism and > depression and have an specific healing program. Cybele, I hope that the centre I wrote about to you (the Majushri Institute) works out or somewhere else. When I suggested that it may be wise not to say too much about your condition in advance unless they asked, you thought this could be deceitful. This is an interesting area for discussion which is why I'm raising it again on dsg as other people may have other ideas. To my way otf thinking, it can complicate situations and sometimes cause unnecessary concern if we feel we should mention all our problems in advance in a situation like this. I would just be inclined to say I were recovering from an illness and on arrival give the key details to someone in charge only. Sometimes we don't know what will happen. We think we willl be incapacitated and unable to work but in new circumstances it can be very different. I'm sure there's nor rule about what we say ' when' and to 'who', though. There is also an aspect of consideration. Over the years when I've been teaching, there have been many, many occasions when I've been in considerable pain, but have smiled and carried on, excusing myself for a few minutes if I need to have a break. I try not to trouble my students about my problems and often find the distraction helps me too. Even at times of mental anguish - I once got a long distance ph call about a close friend's death (Alan Driver's) in the middle of a class - I try to continue smiling and only after class let the facade down. It may sound deceitful, but I think it's always helpful to consider the others. As I say, other people may have other ideas. Cybele, I know it won't be easy for you, but I also know you have a lot of resources and you'll get through this difficult period. With love, Sarah 5470 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 2:16pm Subject: Re: Heart problem --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Robert, your original comments are placed between lines of > "***" for > clarity. > > ************************************************************ > The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart > basis): > they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart > "there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a > pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support > the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur." > Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu > NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the > Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis > occurs with this blood as its support". > ************************************************************ > Ranjith: > I have read this part of the Visuddimagga written in Sinhala. > Sinhala > version used the word "patha" in place of "pastata". In > Sinhala, > the 'patha' > is a measure for liquid which accounts for about 100 mili > liters. Therefore, > half a 'patha' could be about 50 ml. My belief is the human > heart contains > much more quantity of blood in it at any given time. If we > want > to take it > as it is probably, we can assume that the 'Vinnana' can > resides > in the > hadaya-vatthu' as long as there is half a patha of blood in > there. > > ************************************************************ > You see the actual hadaya-vatthu is incredibly sublime - in > scientific measure it wouldn't even amount to a tiny fraction > of > a gram. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by > scientific instruments. > ************************************************************ > > > > In this statement what do you refer to by the word of > hadaya-vatthu? > > > > ************************************************************ > > Dear Ranjith, > What is essential to realise is that hadaya-vatthu (heart > base) > is not the heart nor is it the blood in the heart that we can > see. It is a special type of rupa that is conditioned only by > kamma and it arises in association with some of the blood in > the > heart. In the space of a flash of lightning more than a > billion > moments of hadaya-vatthu have arisen and fallen away. If we > think of heart in conventional terms (and mistake this for > hadaya-vatthu) we are lost in the world of concept- and will > not > understand the deep meaning in the Visuddhimagga. > ______________________________________________________________ > > However, I still can not understand what answers I have for > following > questions. > > If the seat of the Vinnana is the hadaya-vatthu; > > 1. What would happen to the Vinnana during the time of an open > heart surgery > where the heart is inactive for the function of pumping blood? > > 2. Does the Vinnana get changed from one heart tissue to > another > in case of > the heart transplant? > > 3. Where does Vinnana reside during the period of tissue > transition (several > hours)? > > 4. In case of using an artificial heart, we can assume that > engineers do not > make any provision for the tiny heart hole' as they are not > aware of the > requirement. But we know the person who carry the 'heart pump' > live > normally. In this case what happens to the Vinnana? > _______________________________________________ > > None of this can be surprising if we understand hadaya-vatthu. > That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the > suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood > substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the body > inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or > anywhere > suitable. Vinnana lasts even a shorter time than the heart > base > so there is no question of it going anywhere . Actually Melvin > made an error recently when he said the vinnana passes over to > the next life. Vinnana has no time to go anywhere- it can't > change from tissue to anywhere. It arises, performs its > function > (depending on the type of vinnana) and immediatley falls away. > But it conditions the next vinnana to arise. It is this > continuity that deceives us into believing that things can > last. > Even if we think something lasts only for a split second we > are > still caught up in vipallasa of permanence. It is all much > more > ephemeral than that and so only vipassana that insights (not > us) > can understand the difference between nama and rupa and so > overcome doubt on these matters. > > ____________________ > Robert:This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada > rupa). The > Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term > pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we > think > an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)The actual sensitive > matter in the eye and ear is very refined. If someone dies > then > the ear-sense and eye sense (sotapasada and cakkhu-pasada ) > are > immediately no longer produced (they are produced by kamma > only) > yet one would not notice much outward change looking at the > eye > and ear(at least for the first few minutes before > decomposition > sets in). The same applies to the heart - the blood in the > heart > would have the same volume after death and yet the > hadaya-vatthu > is no longer present. > > ************************************************************ > > > Ranjith:Yes, the 'pasada-rupa' is not the organ itself. But I > think it is the name > given to the ability of the 'rupa' (organ) to receive an > 'arammana' in a > specific form and translate that into another form of 'rupa' > to > send the > message to 'Vinnana'(consciousness) which is constantly > monitoring the 'six > sens doors' for inputs. I have shown this process clearly in > the > diagram I > have posted sometimes ago. > ________________ > > Robert: I'm not sure what you mean. The pasada rupa doesn't > translate into anything. It arises and performs its function > which is to be the base and meeting point for cakkhu-vinnana > to > arise and contact the rupa which is visible object. It is so > anatta- so uncontrollable. the pasada is conditioned, the > cakkhu > vinnana is conditioned by different conditions, the rupa which > is visible object (vanayatana or rupayatana) is conditioned by > different conditions again. All of them so ephemeral and yet > they all arise and meet. That is all life is- through > different > doors. > Because of deep ignorance we imagine that we can control this > process. Seeing into this process is understanding > paticcasamupada. It is so deep and yet sadly these days we > have > people who can think about anatta or have unusual experiences > while meditating and believe this means they have had insight. > Very hard to help. > _________________ > Ranjith:When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die > immediately. But they > don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor > the sense > doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after > the > death. That > is the reason for me to use the words "permanent separation of > the Mind from > the Matter" to describe the death. However, the ability of > some > of those > sense organs to function normally remain intact for sometime. > That is how > the surgeons use the Eye tissue of a dead person to transplant > into another > person, giving the vision to the second one. Removal of the > eye > tissue can > take place even an hour after the death. I am aware of a > situations where a > medical team has recovered eyes of a dead man few hours after > his death as > the man died at home and relatives did not call the nearest > Eye > Bank for > hours. > > _________________ > This is mixing conventional thinking with Dhamma and so > confusions occur. > You write "When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die > immediately. But they > don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor > the sense > doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after > the > death." > No. Immediately after cuticitta (death consciousness) arises > (not even a split second delay)there are no more of any of the > sense bases. They are all produced by kamma and already > patisandicitta has arisen in a new existence - maybe in > another > world and another plane far from here. > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the > pasada > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma. > That > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and > the > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging > that there is to concept and story. I'll leave the rest of > your > post for now. > > robert > 5471 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 3:04pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions- C.L. Dear C.L., I'm enjoying your keen interest and questions. Sorry i'm sometimes slow in replying. wrote: > I get your point but I have a further > question... say someone I care is not the same faith or rather not seeing > what we are seeing... and doing some practise that are not in accordance to > the precepts.... and knowing the Dhamma we can know the implications of this > action's kamma be it good or bad.... usually it is the bad that gets us > worried and troubled.... I know this is attachment to one thing or the > other...... I know that this is the attachment of wanting our spouse to have > better kamma... maybe better planes of existence... or maybe a better > ripening of good kamma.. ( I hope I didn't confuse you as I try to avoid too > much of Pali words.. I have no reference at the moment ) I understand your concerns. As we know, only a sotapanna will keep the precepts perfectly without wavering under any circumstances. Unless there is understanding of the danger of unwholesome actions, there won't be any real change. I don't think the reason for abstaining from unwholesomeness should be the concern about future results so much as knowing how destructive 'our' unwholesome mental states and deeds are at this moment. Perhaps it would be more helpful to encourage your wife's (?) wholesome deeds and actions and to appreciate these rather than having aversion or worry about the unwholesome ones. This may be more encouraging to her. What do you think? In the end, we can only develop our own understanding and help others as best we can. I remember one of Khun Sujin's sisters used to have very little interest in dhamma and used to swat mosquitoes and other insects in her home. Later after her husband died, she began to listen to her sister talking about the dhamma a lot and I noticed she no longer hurt the poor little insects! We cannot force another to share our interest and sometimes our attachment is a real obstacle to their interest. > I am still confuse at this face up to > the truth.. you mean me ? what truth ? Is it about mental phenomena of > seeing hearing etc etc.... ? So, C.L., what is the truth at this moment? We cling to our home, spouse, job and so many, many stories about what we see, hear, taste, touch and smell. What can really be known now? Does the home and wife exist? What is it that can be known? Maybe you'd let us know your ideas first. Is it interesting or worthwhile to know these things? Why? Look f/w to hearing from you and others!! Sarah > 5472 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 3:31pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of slowly bringing one around. There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _ these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years. Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a pacceka buddha. We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an unpopular job. When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion or slow our efforts to explain. I have consistently found that even when someone strongly disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana. robert _____________________ > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] I get your point but I have a > further > question... say someone I care is not the same faith or rather > not seeing > what we are seeing... and doing some practise that are not in > accordance to > the precepts.... and knowing the Dhamma we can know the > implications of this > action's kamma be it good or bad.... usually it is the bad > that gets us > worried and troubled.... I know this is attachment to one > thing or the > other...... I know that this is the attachment of wanting our > spouse to have > better kamma... maybe better planes of existence... or maybe a > better > ripening of good kamma.. ( I hope I didn't confuse you as I > try to avoid too > much of Pali words.. I have no reference at the moment ) > > > 2. We are very used to thinking of problems in life as being > connected to > > other people. 'If only > > they would understand as we do' or 'appreciate where I'm at' > or 'get over > > their wrong views' or > > 'just be different from how they are'. In our studies and > practice of the > > dhamma. we learn to > > understand what really is being experienced at these and > other moments. > > When we think like this, > > the reality is thinking, which thinks about so many > different stories, > > accompanied (usually) by > > lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance). In > between these > > thoughts there is > > seeing, hearing and many other phenomena. > > > > The extraordinary fact is that, with the aid of the dhamma, > it is possible > > for panna (wisdom) to > > get to know these realites, the mental and physical > phenomena that make up > > or lives. We begin to > > know what the real problems in life are. However, it's not > easy to 'face > > up to the truth', i.e to > > be aware of realities, to get to know them as not self and > to see how > > often it is the attachment > > rather than the other person's view that is the problem. > > > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] I am still confuse at this face > up to > the truth.. you mean me ? what truth ? Is it about mental > phenomena of > seeing hearing etc etc.... ? > > > What I meant earlier was that as this understanding deepens, > it'll be > > easier to help others with > > our words and hopefully, with our example. Sometimes it > takes a lot of > > patience where a loved one > > is concerned, however! > > > > Best wishes and I hope this makes a little more sense. > > > > Sarah > > > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] thank you for answering my > questions...... > > rgds, > Loke CL 5473 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 3:38pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions- C.L. & Beyond Belief recom mendation by Selamat Dear Sarah please refer to the reply below marked by [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] > Perhaps it would be more helpful to encourage your wife's (?) wholesome > deeds > and actions and to appreciate these rather than having aversion or worry > about > the unwholesome ones. This may be more encouraging to her. What do you > think? > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] actually I am not married... Do I seems to be someone married :) I understand your point.... however I still needs to work on it...sometimes the bad seems too glaring... I will try .. and I get the idea.. situation similiar to the below passage > In the end, we can only develop our own understanding and help others as > best > we can. I remember one of Khun Sujin's sisters used to have very little > interest in dhamma and used to swat mosquitoes and other insects in her > home. > Later after her husband died, she began to listen to her sister talking > about > the dhamma a lot and I noticed she no longer hurt the poor little insects! > We > cannot force another to share our interest and sometimes our attachment is > a > real obstacle to their interest. > > So, C.L., what is the truth at this moment? We cling to our home, spouse, > job > and so many, many stories about what we see, hear, taste, touch and > smell. > What can really be known now? Does the home and wife exist? What is it > that can > be known? Maybe you'd let us know your ideas first. Is it interesting or > worthwhile to know these things? Why? > > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] Now I see what you mean by facing up of clinging.. I agree that it is so... but I somehow lack the wisdom and most probably the courage to face.. however this is one thing that I need to do for myself... in the current world.. job home etc etc.. seems to be the norm.... we can just abandon our responsibilites, job , home etc.... the question does the home and wife exist... I know for sure in anatta... there is none... but the now well ... let's put it this way.. I don't see it that drastic way or should I say I don't want to see it that way... thanks for all your emails I have just finished reading "Beyond Belief" sent to me by Selamat... I must say.. it is quite "piercing" into Christianity... very sharp indeed.... any christian will defend till the end ... with that tone.... however ths book did point out very interesting thing about the Bible..... Rgds, Loke CL 5474 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 5:30pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert] > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > > Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of > slowly bringing one around. > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _ > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years. > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a > pacceka buddha. > > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an > unpopular job. > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion > or slow our efforts to explain. > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana. > robert > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] robert I agree with your views ... and I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give example of the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince the wrong viewed party ?thank you in advance Loke CL 5475 From: Erik Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 8:11pm Subject: Re: intro and appeal --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Cybele, I hope that the centre I wrote about to you (the Majushri Institute) > works out or somewhere else. I'll state some reservations I have about this particular center. The NKT has a history of actively picketing the Dalai Lama and their leader, Kelsang Gyatso, has made some ugly statements about the Dalai Lama as well. That sort of behavior does not reflect the spirit of the Buddha's Dharma in any way, at least not the Dharma I've learned so far. When I suggested that it may be wise not to say > too much about your condition in advance unless they asked, you thought this > could be deceitful. This is an interesting area for discussion which is why I'm > raising it again on dsg as other people may have other ideas. This is an interesting point. The question that jumps out at me in all this is, what business is it of theirs anyway? If someone is presently in a more fragile emotional state due to a heavy life situation, that simply isn't possible on the path (or as a result of the path), now is it? The Dhamma means that within a few months we become shiny happy people, all our problems solved, all kilesas terminated. Seriously. Isn't that the reason for practice, the reason centers like this exist: to give people the chance to overcome dukkha? This sort of intense difficulty is most auspicious. It is an indication that a practice is firing on all cylinders. If there are not more disasters ripening than one thinks bearable, then practice hasn't even truly begun. So this situation is precisely the one where most progress becomes possible. Liminal zones like this, "bardos," (in-between places) are where all transformation from old to new takes place, and these moments, these "dark nights of the soul," always presage the most important and lasting changes. This is a part of the path, this rawness. This can happen when the layers of emotional armoring are stripped off, leaving one something like a hermit crab that's outgrown its old home--totally exposed and vulnerable for a period, sometimes a very long period. This often goes hand-in-hand with activation of the subtle enrgies in the body, which can lead to difficult conditions in the nervous system (extremely heightened sensitivity, etc.). It is a process that takes time and patience and favorable conditions to work through. > To my way otf thinking, it can complicate situations and sometimes cause > unnecessary concern if we feel we should mention all our problems in advance in > a situation like this. Agreed. > I would just be inclined to say I were recovering from an illness and on arrival give the key details to someone in charge only. Or not even that. Again, whose business is it? 5476 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 8:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal Dear Erik and Sarah, --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > wrote: > > > > > When I suggested that it may be wise not to say > > too much about your condition in advance unless they asked, > you > thought this > > could be deceitful. This is an interesting area for > discussion > which is why I'm > > raising it again on dsg as other people may have other > ideas. > > This is an interesting point. The question that jumps out at > me in > all this is, what business is it of theirs anyway? > > To my way otf thinking, it can complicate situations and > sometimes > cause > > unnecessary concern if we feel we should mention all our > problems > in advance in > > a situation like this. > > Agreed. > > > I would just be inclined to say I were recovering from an > illness > and on arrival give the key details to someone in charge only. > > Or not even that. Again, whose business is it? > ______________________ I agree. No need to tell anyone our problems or weaknesses - unless we have some good reason to do so. This doesn't mean we pretend to be other than we are; it means be a little circumspect before giving personal details to others. Now when I went for my interview at the university I could have told them all sorts of revealing things. I could have said "I masturbate twice a week< I thought you should you should know that" (This is hypothetical). In fact, I put my best side forward - without lying though. robert 5477 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 8:49pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth Fwd: questions Dear CL. It depends on the view people hold. If it is a materialist view then it is often held by well-educated people. They get much support from the dominant scientific ideas of our age and tend to identify it with high rationality; and see any other view as superstitious. What is necessary to show is that materialism cannot explain fundamental questions. It can't explain why you were born in malayasia - why not thailand. Why weren't you born as a cockroach instead of a human? This sort of approach at least lets them realise the limitations of their viewpoint. One can point our the various conditions explained in buddhism - that there is no self but that because of certain conditions this arises and that because of others that arises. If they hear about this they will know that Buddhism is logical and even more concerned with cause and effect than science. One can talk about craving and how it is a powerful energy - perhaps they will see that if they can't stop craving now why should they imagine it will stop simply because of physical death. This is just a start. robert --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > [SMTP:robert] > > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > > > > Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make > > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of > > slowly bringing one around. > > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci > hell _ > > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding > a > > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are > rated > > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks > life > > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One > who > > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also > strong > > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the > > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years. > > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however > he > > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a > > pacceka buddha. > > > > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed > in > > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview > > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting > heroically > > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an > > unpopular job. > > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those > that > > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem > > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the > > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do > > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but > we > > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our > compassion > > or slow our efforts to explain. > > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly > > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough > detailed > > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough > to > > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not > only > > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any > > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana. > > robert > > > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] robert I agree with your views > ... and > I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give > example of > the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince > the wrong > viewed party ?thank you in advance > > Loke CL 5478 From: Paul Bail Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 5:31pm Subject: Re: Fwd: questions Dear Robert, As you have indicated, if an explanation is given in a dispassionate manner, with loving-kindness and equanimity, to one who is asking a question, it definitely plants a seed that will ripen under the right conditions. However, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to become polemical, which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, particularly outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other people sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of controversy gets rolling whose results are unpredictable. Paul Bail << I have consistently found that even when someone strongly disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. >> 5479 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: questions Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of these forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna cannot arise simultaneously - so great to see this. In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of cittas are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then there is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to have always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they are afraid of their own reactions. Most times, as you perhaps indicate, a gentle response is needed but sometimes we may write or speak polemically as a rhetorical device, knowing that it will bring a sharp response - but also knowing that only by bringing people into a conversatation directly do they get fully involved. I wrote my response to CL on dsg because the members here are conversant with fairly deep Dhamma and so kamma and rebirth is not disputed. On d-l I probably wouldn't put things so directly taking account that many members are new to Dhamma. Discussing religion with Mormons is great because they are always calm - even when they disagree. They are good models for dhamma discussions. One to one or in small groups is often more productive because one can get past certain obstacles and carry on. robert --- Paul Bail wrote: > Dear Robert, > > As you have indicated, if an explanation is given in a > dispassionate manner, > with loving-kindness and equanimity, to one who is asking a > question, it > definitely plants a seed that will ripen under the right > conditions. > > However, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to > become polemical, > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, > particularly > outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other > people > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of > controversy > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable. > > Paul Bail > > << I have consistently found that even when someone strongly > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough > detailed > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. >> 5480 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:15pm Subject: Re: intro and appeal Dear Cybele, Here's the Buddha's criteria when determining what to speak: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn058.html#criteria. I think it would be decietful if one is asked a question, and one avoids or represents the truths. However, there is no need to speak about our miseries to others unless the persons consents to listen or asks to hear about them. kom 5481 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:27pm Subject: Pali-English Dhammapada Link If anyone's interested, Wynn's been kind enough to forward a link to this very interesting (and fun) site: Hi, I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in Pali and English and it shows how it is translated, it teaches grammar and give the vocabulary for each word. It also give the commentary. And also sentence pronunciation and word pronunciation. http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/ Wynn 5482 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali-English Dhammapada Link Thanks Mike (and Wyn) --- "m. nease" wrote: > If anyone's interested, Wynn's been kind enough to > forward a link to this very interesting (and fun) > site: > > Hi, > > I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in > Pali and English and it shows how it is translated, it > teaches grammar and give the vocabulary for each word. > It also give the commentary. And also sentence > pronunciation and word pronunciation. > > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/ > > Wynn > 5483 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dan --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Don't underrate the development of samatha! If a Buddhist develops > samatha by observing the hindrances while sitting quietly, legs > crossed, eyes closed, this opens the door for insight (but of course, > it doesn't mean that insight necessarily arises). I agree that the development of samatha is not to be underrated (and neither, for that matter, is its difficulty – but that is a whole subject in itself). Samatha is indeed kusala of an extremely high degree. But no matter how developed our samatha might be, lobha and dosa (aka the hindrances) will continue to arise in everyday life. If a person has correct understanding of the development of awareness, there can be awareness at some level of any dhamma, even these akusala ones, and at such moments, the akusala dhammas are not "obstructing, hindering or concealing reality from consciousness". We should also not underestimate the role of awareness in conditioning the arising of insight. As AN X 61, 62 points out, a moment of awareness of a dhamma (the 4 foundations of mindfulness) is the nutriment for the development of the 7 factors of enlightenment. The sutta gives this summary of the "nutriment of that liberation by supreme knowledge"— When association with superior people prevails, listening to the true Dhamma will prevail. When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will prevail. When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear comprehension will prevail. When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, restraint of the senses will prevail. When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of good conduct will prevail. When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 foundations of mindfulness will prevail. When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 factors of enlightenment will prevail. When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, liberation by supreme knowledge will prevail. Jon 5484 From: Dan Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Jon, You wrote: > If a person has correct understanding of the development of awareness, > there can be awareness at some level of any dhamma, even these akusala > ones, and at such moments, the akusala dhammas are not "obstructing, > hindering or concealing reality from consciousness". There is more to it than that. If there is weakly developed awareness or awareness at an intellectual level or an unclear awareness, then the hindrances are still "obstructing, hindering or concealing reality from consciousness". Samtha can help strengthen awareness, and that is why the hindrances are said to attenuate wisdom. > We should also not underestimate the role of awareness in conditioning the > arising of insight. That's for sure! Awareness is the name of the game (satipatthana). Dan 5485 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 0:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Jon, Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books). mike --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: When association with superior people prevails, listening to the true Dhamma will prevail. When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will prevail. When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear comprehension will prevail. When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, restraint of the senses will prevail. When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of good conduct will prevail. When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 foundations of mindfulness will prevail. When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 factors of enlightenment will prevail. When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, liberation by supreme knowledge will prevail. 5486 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: [palitrans] Pali Sure does, John--thanks. mn --- John Kelly wrote: > Thank you very much, Wynn. What a goldmine for a > Pali student! > I recommend using the link below instead of the one > you cited. It then > becomes easier to navigate. > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading.htm > Hi, > > I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in > Pali and English and it > shows how it is translated, it teaches grammar and > give the vocabulary for > each word. It also give the commentary. And also > sentence pronunciation and > word pronunciation. > > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/ > > Wynn 5487 From: Dan Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 7:55am Subject: Re: attention and concentration [Nina] Dear Nina, Thanks for your gentle and thoughtful posts. What great contributions to the list! I do have a few questions, though… You wrote: > Concentration (ekaggata cetasika or samadhi) and attention (manasikara) > belong to the group of cetasikas which are the seven , accompanying > each and every citta. I agree that as a universal cetasika, ekaggata essentially means that the citta experiences only one object at a time, but "samadhi" means something different from than this. In his "Manual…", Narada writes: "When it is developed and cultivated, [ekaggata] is designated Samadhi." (ch. 2, sec. 9, note 6). This implies that the "concentration" that is universal in all cittas is not samadhi, that the word "samadhi" is reserved for a special kind of concentration. How does Ven. Narada's comment squares with your knowledge of these terms? You wrote: > Concentration in samatha has to be accompanied by understanding (panna), and > it concentrates on the meditation subject with steadfastness. This is surely true to a certain degree. Obviously, the hindrances must be recognized as hindrances. What is the nature of the panya that must accompany samatha (at jhana, access, and preparatory levels)? For example, concentration in samatha need not be associated with wisdom regarding or even knowledge about the four noble truths or lakhana or paticca-sammupada or yoniso-manasikara. After all, samatha is common to many traditions that do not teach these objects of panna. Ven. Bodhi writes (CMA, ch. II, sec.8): "Panya is wisdom, or knowing things as they really are. ...Wisdom has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yathasabhavapativedha)." Does jhana or even less sublimely developed samatha require penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature? If so, in what way? Dan 5488 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:34am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth Fwd: questions Robert, thank you for the explanation.. to be honest it even very technical and dry trying to imagine the contents of these areas... I think to explain these things you stated below would prove quite diffcult for a non believer.. any short cut ? I know there aren't many in Buddhism and Dhama.... hahaha.. thank you for your views and advice... But I really appreciate it if there is another simpler and more chewable chunks of info to pass onto Loke CL > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert] > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:49 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth Fwd: questions > > Dear CL. > It depends on the view people hold. If it is a materialist view > then it is often held by well-educated people. They get much > support from the dominant scientific ideas of our age and tend > to identify it with high rationality; and see any other view as > superstitious. > What is necessary to show is that materialism cannot explain > fundamental questions. It can't explain why you were born in > malayasia - why not thailand. Why weren't you born as a > cockroach instead of a human? This sort of approach at least > lets them realise the limitations of their viewpoint. > One can point our the various conditions explained in buddhism - > that there is no self but that because of certain conditions > this arises and that because of others that arises. If they hear > about this they will know that Buddhism is logical and even more > concerned with cause and effect than science. > One can talk about craving and how it is a powerful energy - > perhaps they will see that if they can't stop craving now why > should they imagine it will stop simply because of physical > death. > This is just a start. > robert > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > [SMTP:robert] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > > > > > > Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make > > > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of > > > slowly bringing one around. > > > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci > > hell _ > > > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding > > a > > > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are > > rated > > > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks > > life > > > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One > > who > > > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also > > strong > > > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the > > > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years. > > > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however > > he > > > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a > > > pacceka buddha. > > > > > > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed > > in > > > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview > > > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting > > heroically > > > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an > > > unpopular job. > > > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those > > that > > > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem > > > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the > > > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do > > > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but > > we > > > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our > > compassion > > > or slow our efforts to explain. > > > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly > > > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough > > detailed > > > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough > > to > > > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not > > only > > > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any > > > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana. > > > robert > > > > > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] robert I agree with your views > > ... and > > I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give > > example of > > the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince > > the wrong > > viewed party ?thank you in advance > > > > Loke CL > > 5489 From: robert Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 11:47am Subject: Fwd: The Buddha's language - Magadha --- Binh wrote: G'day Amara, Robert K., et al I have come across para 25 and 30, Chapt 14, of the Visuddhi Magga, English trans., in which Bhante Bhuddhaghosa wrote that: 1) the Magadhan language is considered to be "the language of law (dhamma)" [Vis, XIV, 25], and 2) there were 101 dialects of which Magadha was one. [Vis. XIV, 30] In addition, in the "Introduction", Bhikkhu Nanamoli also wrote that: "... The Pali language, 'the text language', which the commentators call Magadhan...". For your interest and information. Metta, Binh 5490 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 0:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Mike The 2 are presented as 1 in the Wisdom version ('Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'), so I'll have to check my PTS version when I get home. Delighted to see you back. We've missed you (both ways). Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN > X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books). > > mike > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > When association with superior people prevails, > listening to the true > Dhamma will prevail. > When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will > > prevail. > When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. > When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear > comprehension will > prevail. > When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, > restraint of the senses > will prevail. > When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of > good conduct will > prevail. > When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 > foundations of mindfulness > will prevail. > When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 > factors of > enlightenment will prevail. > When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, > liberation by supreme > knowledge will prevail. > 5491 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 8:07pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Jon, It does come from AN X, 61 in the PTS version. Woodward's translation is quite different though I don't think the meaning's changed much--who translated the Wisdom version? (I definitely prefer it). Here's the PTS for comparison: "Release by knowledge, monks, I declare has its nutriment , it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment of release by knowledge? "The seven limbs of wisdom" should be the reply. The seven limbs of wisdom, I declare, have their nutriment. What? "The four arisings of mindfulness" should be the reply. They too have their nutriment, the three ways of right practice. And they, control of the faculties of sense. The nutriment of these is mindfulness and self-posession. Their nutriment is thorough work of mind. Of that the nutriment is faith. The nutriment of faith is listening to true dhamma. And what is the nutriment of listening to true dhamma? "Following afer the very man" should be the reply. "Thus, monks, following after the very man, when complete, completes listening to true dhamma; listening to true dhamma completes faith; faith completes thorough work of mind; and that, mindfulness and self- posession; that, control of the sense-faculties; that, the three right ways of practice; that, the four arisings of mindfulness; and that, the seven limbs of wisdom; while the seven limbs of wisdom, when complete, complete release by knowledge." --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > The 2 are presented as 1 in the Wisdom version ('Numerical > Discourses of the Buddha'), so I'll have to check my PTS version > when I get home. > --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN > > X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books). > > > > mike > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > When association with superior people prevails, > > listening to the true > > Dhamma will prevail. > > When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will > > > > prevail. > > When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. > > When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear > > comprehension will > > prevail. > > When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, > > restraint of the senses > > will prevail. > > When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of > > good conduct will > > prevail. > > When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 > > foundations of mindfulness > > will prevail. > > When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 > > factors of > > enlightenment will prevail. > > When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, > > liberation by supreme > > knowledge will prevail. 5492 From: selamat Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali-English Dhammapada Link anumodana. ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: Dhamma Study Group Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 9:27 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali-English Dhammapada Link > If anyone's interested, Wynn's been kind enough to > forward a link to this very interesting (and fun) > site: > > Hi, > > I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in > Pali and English and it shows how it is translated, it > teaches grammar and give the vocabulary for each word. > It also give the commentary. And also sentence > pronunciation and word pronunciation. > > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/ > > Wynn > 5493 From: Alex Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: Pali-English Dhammapada Link Dear Mike, Thank you. It's good to hear from you again. Respectfully, Alex 5494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and practice op 05-06-2001 08:13 schreef Purnomo . op Purnomo: > Thank for your detail. > May I ask once again ? > I mean that however we be smart about Abhidhamma, but we don't approach > Samadhi(meditation) so we be smart for theory only. My point is practice not > theory. >I know, Abhidhamma is important but you have to know that abhidhamma > born from pracrice/experience. Don't you change, theory then practice. And > it's most important that The Buddha Sakyamuni have found dhamma on his > effort and experince. So, we could find that what all The Buddha told are > based on his experince. So, we can find dhamma not from theory(Abhidhamma) > but from your effort by meditation. And we must know, every body have got > experience theirself. Remember, we have the same of goal, but we have > different way to achieve it. These sentences macth what The Buddha said. > Be happier, be better everyday N: Dear Purnomo, can wu practice without listening first to the teachings? Is the beginning of the development of understanding not listening and considering? We are not like the Buddha who found the Truth all by himself. We need to listen first. That is: learning, considering, verifying in our own life what we hear. As you say, everybody has to experience the truth himself. If we just sit in mmeditation but do not know our own cittas, how can we be sure that we practise in the right way? For example, we may wish to develop the meditation subject of metta, lovingkindness, but if we do not know the different moments of citta we may confuse attachment to a person and unselfish love. As the Visuddhimagga explains, attachment is the near enemy of metta. This is just an example to show that there cannot be the right meditation without learning what the Buddha taught about the different cittas and other phenomena of our life. What is our goal? The Buddha taught that only right understanding of realities can eradicate ignorance and the other defilements. First clinging to self has to be eradicated. We can learn that whatever arises is just a conditioned reality, non-self. You say that we have different ways to achieve the goal. It is very useful to remember that whatever we do is only a conditioned reality. Suppose someone likes to sit in meditation and believes that he can develop a calm state of mind. Why is that? Because it is his accumulated inclination, he has done this before. If this is so, let him than realize that it is not self who is doing this, only a conditioned nama. He could also consider what his purpose is and what he comes to know by sitting. Is there a subtle attachment to calm? Does he come to know his own citta? Whatever you do, develop more understanding of your own citta, that is the Abhidhamma in the practice. We have to be very sincere and find out when we are clinging to the self. Not only when sitting but also when working, talking or eating. Thank you for your good wish to become better everyday. How? only by understanding more my own citta. And evenso, there are ups and downs all the way, don't you find that? Many religions teach: do good, do good. Only the Buddha taught the way: understanding of realities. No matter he spoke about sila, the development of calm, or vipassana, the development of understanding of realities was always implied in his teachings. From beginning to end. Only the Buddha could teach the true nature of realities, only the Buddha could teach that realities are non-self. With metta, Nina. 5495 From: Paul Bail Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:41pm Subject: Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Robert, I agree with your analysis. However, I think one of the most difficult situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as "representing" Dharma. For example, we are working at some Dharma function and some new person catches us with our defilements showing. Or a relative is aware that we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or self-righteous or whatever they may make some comment to the effect that "Buddhism can't be so good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your disposition." Maybe they are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine they are thinking that. I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a situation, even though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient being, and in no way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma. Paul Bail ----------------------------------- Robert K: <> ------------------------------------------ Paul B: ,, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to become polemical, which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, particularly outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other people sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of controversy gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>> 5496 From: Paul Bail Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: intro and appeal Dear List: I find this list very uplifting, with a nice balance of theoretical and practical discussion. The nobility, seriousness and commitment reflected in the posts is very nourishing. Just felt moved to say that. . . Paul B., Lurker and Occasional Poster --------------- Sarah wrote: <> 5497 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 2:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pali-English Dhammapada Link Dear Alex, Always a pleasure, Ma'am. mn --- Alex wrote: > Dear Mike, > Thank you. It's good to hear from you again. > Respectfully, > Alex 5498 From: Lim Tai Eng. Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:26am Subject: In Perth Organised by: Teoh at 019-3568879, Doris Choong at 016-2746447 Oct 12, 2001 – Friday 06:00am Assemble at KLIA for check in formalities 07:40am Depart for Perth-Western Australia 14:30pm Arrive Perth, transfer to hotel 17:00pm Dinner at restaurant 18:00pm Transfer to Dhammaloka Buddhist Centre 22:00pm Transfer back to hotel October 13, 2001 – Saturday 07:00am Breakfast at restaurant 08:00am Transfer to Dhammasara Nun’s Monastery for activities 14:00pm Transfer to Dhammaloka Buddhist Centre 22:00pm Transfer back to hotel October 14, 2001 – Sunday 07:00am Breakfast at restaurant 08:00am Transfer to Bodhinyana Monastery for activities 15:00pm Transfer back to Perth Free at leisure Dinner at restaurant Night activities October 15, 2001 – Monday 07:00am Breakfast at restaurant Perth city tour - Swan river cruise - Millionaire’s row - Lake Monger - Kings Park - Fremantle - Monument Hill - Roundhouse - Fisherman’s Harbour Lunch/Dinner at restaurant October 16, 2! 001 – Tuesday 07:00am Breakfast at hotel Sightseeing tour - Caversham wildlife park - Swan valley - Tumbulgum Farm Show - Fruit Orchard Lunch/Dinner at restaurant October 17, 2001 – Wednesday 05:00am Breakfast at restaurant 06:00am Transfer to airport for flight 08:50am Depart for Kuala Lumpur 16:10pm Arrive KLIA Limited Seats Only Booking on First Come First Served Basis AdultChild with bedChild without bedTour Fare2,250. 5499 From: Binh Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 9:04am Subject: Re: In PerthOrganised by: Thanks for posting this announcement. I look forward to seeing you and other Malaysian-Singaporean Buddhist friends in October (Kathina - Ceremony of Robe Offering) in Perth. :-) Metta, Binh Anson (Perth, Western Australia) 5500 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 9:13am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions) Paul, You speak my mind and predicament.... I have been caught too many times in these situations... but what I try to explain is this... though we may indirectly break precepts be intentional or unintentional or even circumstantial.... (but let's not get into that) the thing is .... we try to keep the precepts as humanly pure as possible... we try to practise the Dhamma as humans with its faults... and sometimes this is being viewed as " see ... you are not a good example " even in Dhamma... but somehow to the outsider this is so.... though we may know that there are conditions and being merely humans.... (sort of not practising what you preach type of scenario.... it is so frustrating sometimes... I know that Buddhism that allows for this human fault (or should I say imperfect being) which I feel Christianity is lacking... the human factor.... Loke CL > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Bail [SMTP:Paul Bail] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 1:41 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: > Fwd: Questions) > > Dear Robert, > > I agree with your analysis. However, I think one of the most difficult > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as > "representing" > Dharma. For example, we are working at some Dharma function and some new > person catches us with our defilements showing. Or a relative is aware > that > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or self-righteous or > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that "Buddhism can't be > so > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your disposition." Maybe > they > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine they are > thinking > that. I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a situation, even > > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient being, and in > no > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma. > > Paul Bail > > > ----------------------------------- > Robert K: > < forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to > our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not > understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna cannot > arise simultaneously - so great to see this. > In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of cittas > are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some > other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then there > is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to have > always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but > unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their > defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they > are afraid of their own reactions.>> > ------------------------------------------ > Paul B: > ,, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to become polemical, > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, particularly > > outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other people > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of controversy > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>> > > > > 5501 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:40am Subject: Fw: ScanMail Message: To Sender, virus found and action taken. ScanMail Message: To Sender, virus found and action taken.Dear Friends and family, It seems that my McAfee virus protection did not detect a virus that must have been sent to me and that I had unknowingly passed on. If you received a message from me with the description below, please delete immediately. If I have unwittingly infected your computer system, please forgive me for this terrible inconvenience. Sincerely, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: System Attendant To: 'Bongkojpriya Yugala' Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:04 AM Subject: ScanMail Message: To Sender, virus found and action taken. ScanMail for Microsoft Exchange has detected virus-infected attachments. Place = Sender = Bongkojpriya Yugala Subject = against Ayuthaya. King Delivery Time = June 08, 2001 (Friday) 22:03:55 Actions on virus found: "PE_Magistr.A" virus was found in the attachment "MSOOBE.EXE", ScanMail has cleaned this virus. The attachment can now be safely used. Message from recipient's administrator: Warning to sender. ScanMail detected a virus in an email attachment you sent. 5502 From: robert Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 0:49pm Subject: Fwd: Re: egoless being, estimating someone's progress --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Paul, I was just looking up the info. on Mahanama for you(haven't found yet) when I saw this in the Dhammapada-athakatha and thought it might be on interest. It is in Book 1, 13 (trans. burlingame PTS edition p.242. It is about the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana. She was already a sakagami (her father was only a sotapanna) but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. Anathapindika visited her and she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha. "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" endquote. Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. the Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna . Naturally anathapindika was relieved knowing that his daughter was thus now reborn in a better world etc. Perhaps what is interesting here is that a sotapanna did not even know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. If we judge people from their behaviour we can say "he looks always calm " But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness. Sometimes someone may be quite agitated and yet still be acumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality. And we cannot tell by looking at someone whether this is occuring. In the visuddhimagga they give an example of the type of monk who has tendencies towards lobha (desire, attachment). This type of monk walks very carefully and studiously. He moves beautifully and his robe is always kept properly and so on. It says (III92) "One of greedy temperament acts skilfully, gently, carefully and evenly". As I read it this monk has all the outer appearance that we might expect of an arahant. We can see that we can't really know about people by outer behaviour. We can only know ourselves- and in the beginning the moments of sati may be so few and so weak that it is not clear even to ourselves. If we haven't heard details of the Dhamma and considered it and applied it properly we can delude ourself and think we have few defilements. Pleasant feeling and neutral feeling arise with awareness- they also arise with subtle craving. What is true is that if we are genuinely gaining insight we can detect more and more subtle levels of wrong view - by discussion and listening or reading what people say. We can see who understands the path. Perhaps we find that some of the teachers we were in awe of in early days now seem stuck in subtle, or not so subtle, wrong practice. robert --- End forwarded message --- 5503 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 2:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Paul, Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were running very late and sarah was showing some agitation. These friends then said that "this shows how much more understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only got her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no concern at all. Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said was "they don't understand the path". You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they appear. I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the original one". I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members. Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However, to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree, they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana). In the Brahmajala sutta (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata. And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle chatter.. no meals after midday....etc. As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this. They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling. If they discussed much with you they would know more about your insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe they would think it is natural - if they understood the conditioned nature of dhammas. robert --- Paul Bail wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I agree with your analysis. However, I think one of the most > difficult > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as > "representing" > Dharma. For example, we are working at some Dharma function > and some new > person catches us with our defilements showing. Or a relative > is aware that > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or > self-righteous or > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that > "Buddhism can't be so > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your > disposition." Maybe they > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine > they are thinking > that. I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a > situation, even > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient > being, and in no > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma. > > Paul Bail > > > ----------------------------------- > Robert K: > < these > forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to > our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not > understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna > cannot > arise simultaneously - so great to see this. > In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of > cittas > are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some > other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then > there > is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to > have > always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but > unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their > defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they > are afraid of their own reactions.>> > ------------------------------------------ > Paul B: > ,, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to become > polemical, > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, > particularly > outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other > people > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of > controversy > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>> > 5504 From: robert Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 3:24pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Commentaries? was: Visakha --- Robert wrote: Great to hear you say this Binh. the commentaries are later in that they were edited by dhammapala and buddhaghosa in the form we have now. But large sections of them were in existence in the buddha's time and were passed along with the suttas. So in the Udana commentary introduction Dhammapala(p2 masefield0 says "since the teacher's teaching together with it's commentary still survives and the interpretaion thereof of those lions, the former acariyas, still stands; I shall therefore, having plunged in hanging onto same, adhering to the method of the ancient commentary [poranatthakatha]as well as the five nikayas". In the conclusion (p1125masefield) dhammapala says "reliant on the method of its Ancient commentary, so as to make its meaning manifest, has reached accomplishment". I recommend any translations(PTS) by Peter masefield (an australian compatriot of yours)as he takes real care and often gives the pali as well. Also Bhikkhu Bodhi's books such as 'The all embracing net of views" and "The Discourse on the fruits of recluseship". Burlingames translation of the Dhammapada commentary is very easy to read. Lot's of others too. Milindapanha-trans. by horner for example. We are still missing so many commentaries in English though - it is a hindrance and I am greatly envious of Thai, Sri lankan and Burmese friends who have these almost complete in their native tongue. --- Binh wrote: > G'day Robert, > > Thanks for detailed information from the Commentary. Now, I understand > that Visakha's sorrow and grief were expanded only in later > Commentaries, not in the Sutta. > > Perhaps I should start saving money to purchase the English > translation of the Commentaries as well... Any suggestion? > > Metta, > Binh > 5505 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 3:51pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions) Can anyone tell me who this Khun Sujin person is ? Male or Female? Nationality ? Theravadan or other etc etc... just breif one will do thank you Loke CL > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 2:28 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was > Re: Fwd: Questions) > > Dear Paul, > Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in > Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to > the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were > running very late and sarah was showing some agitation. > These friends then said that "this shows how much more > understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same > thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only got > her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no > concern at all. > Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said > was "they don't understand the path". > > You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they > appear. > I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises > (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is > sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there > are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to > happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and > felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the > original one". > I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members. > Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so > they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious > (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not > really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious > feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they > don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However, > to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree, > they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to > view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana). > In the Brahmajala sutta (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of > views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant > matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a > wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata. > And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere > moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not > killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle > chatter.. no meals after midday....etc. > > As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your > outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this. > They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger > forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust > and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no > insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might > appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling. > If they discussed much with you they would know more about your > insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the > buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then > they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe > they would think it is natural - if they understood the > conditioned nature of dhammas. > robert > > --- Paul Bail wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > I agree with your analysis. However, I think one of the most > > difficult > > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as > > "representing" > > Dharma. For example, we are working at some Dharma function > > and some new > > person catches us with our defilements showing. Or a relative > > is aware that > > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or > > self-righteous or > > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that > > "Buddhism can't be so > > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your > > disposition." Maybe they > > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine > > they are thinking > > that. I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a > > situation, even > > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient > > being, and in no > > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma. > > > > Paul Bail > > > > > > ----------------------------------- > > Robert K: > > < > these > > forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to > > our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not > > understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna > > cannot > > arise simultaneously - so great to see this. > > In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of > > cittas > > are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some > > other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then > > there > > is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to > > have > > always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but > > unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their > > defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they > > are afraid of their own reactions.>> > > ------------------------------------------ > > Paul B: > > ,, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to become > > polemical, > > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, > > particularly > > outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other > > people > > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of > > controversy > > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>> > > 5506 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dan You make some good points. We are in danger of being in more-or-less substantial agreement here! --- Dan wrote: > There is more to it than that. If there is weakly developed awareness > or awareness at an intellectual level or an unclear awareness, then > the hindrances are still "obstructing, hindering or concealing > reality from consciousness". Quite so. At least, they are when they arise. Although our days may be ‘full of akusala’ in the conventional sense, there are still many, many moments of actual sense-door experience that are neither kusala or akusala (they are vipaka), and likewise the objects of those moments (which of course are rupas). So there are plenty of moments of consciousness in a day with no ‘hindrance effect’. Actually, since you mention awareness that is for the most part "weakly developed, unclear, at an intellectual level", that sounds pretty much like me. But the task is the same for the beginner as for the person of more developed awareness – the study of the characteristic of the reality appearing at the present moment. After all, weak awareness + correct understanding of the development of awareness = opportunity for more moments of weak awareness. Samtha can help strengthen awareness, > and that is why the hindrances are said to attenuate wisdom. Even so, Dan, a formal samatha practice can only account for so much time in a day. For the rest of the day (23 or so hours out of the 24) realities continue to present themselves through different doorways, and these are potential objects of weak awareness - as long as we don’t rule that possibility out. > > We should also not underestimate the role of awareness in > conditioning the > > arising of insight. > > That's for sure! Awareness is the name of the game (satipatthana). Yes! That’s awareness of the present reality, of course. Jon 5507 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:11pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions) CL She is the Thai lady referred to in the description page of this group. Aged about 75 years, living in Bangkok. Jon --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Can anyone tell me who this Khun Sujin person is ? Male or Female? > Nationality ? Theravadan or other etc etc... just breif one will do > > thank you > > Loke CL > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert] > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 2:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was > > Re: Fwd: Questions) > > > > Dear Paul, > > Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in > > Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to > > the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were > > running very late and sarah was showing some agitation. > > These friends then said that "this shows how much more > > understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same > > thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only got > > her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no > > concern at all. > > Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said > > was "they don't understand the path". > > > > You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they > > appear. > > I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises > > (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is > > sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there > > are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to > > happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and > > felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the > > original one". > > I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members. > > Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so > > they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious > > (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not > > really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious > > feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they > > don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However, > > to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree, > > they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to > > view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana). > > In the Brahmajala sutta (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of > > views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant > > matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a > > wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata. > > And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere > > moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not > > killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle > > chatter.. no meals after midday....etc. > > > > As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your > > outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this. > > They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger > > forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust > > and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no > > insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might > > appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling. > > If they discussed much with you they would know more about your > > insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the > > buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then > > they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe > > they would think it is natural - if they understood the > > conditioned nature of dhammas. > > robert > > > > --- Paul Bail wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > > > > > I agree with your analysis. However, I think one of the most > > > difficult > > > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as > > > "representing" > > > Dharma. For example, we are working at some Dharma function > > > and some new > > > person catches us with our defilements showing. Or a relative > > > is aware that > > > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or > > > self-righteous or > > > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that > > > "Buddhism can't be so > > > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your > > > disposition." Maybe they > > > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine > > > they are thinking > > > that. I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a > > > situation, even > > > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient > > > being, and in no > > > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma. > > > > > > Paul Bail > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------- > > > Robert K: > > > < > > these > > > forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to > > > our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not > > > understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna > > > cannot > > > arise simultaneously - so great to see this. > > > In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of > > > cittas > > > are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some > > > other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then > > > there > > > is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to > > > have > > > always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but > > > unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their > > > defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they > > > are afraid of their own reactions.>> > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > Paul B: > > > ,, I have sometimes found in myself a tendency to become > > > polemical, > > > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, > > > particularly > > > outside of a one-to-one situation. In group situations other > > > people > > > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of > > > controversy > > > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>> > > > > > > 5508 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:15pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions) thanks for the reply jon.... anyway anybody read "Beyond Belief" by S. DHAMMIKA ? Do tell me what do you think ... rgds, Loke CL > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [SMTP:Jon] > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 4:12 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was > Re: Fwd : Questions) > > CL > She is the Thai lady referred to in the description page of this group. > Aged about 75 years, living in Bangkok. > Jon > > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > > Can anyone tell me who this Khun Sujin person is ? Male or Female? > > Nationality ? Theravadan or other etc etc... just breif one will do > > > > thank you > > > > Loke CL > > 5509 From: Purnomo . Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and practice thank a lot be happier, be better everyday bye :) metta, purnomo >From: Nina van Gorkom >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and practice >Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:26:46 +0200 > >op 05-06-2001 08:13 schreef Purnomo . op Purnomo: > > > Thank for your detail. > > May I ask once again ? > > I mean that however we be smart about Abhidhamma, but we don't approach > > Samadhi(meditation) so we be smart for theory only. My point is practice >not > > theory. > > >I know, Abhidhamma is important but you have to know that abhidhamma > > born from pracrice/experience. Don't you change, theory then practice. >And > > it's most important that The Buddha Sakyamuni have found dhamma on his > > effort and experince. So, we could find that what all The Buddha told >are > > based on his experince. So, we can find dhamma not from >theory(Abhidhamma) > > but from your effort by meditation. And we must know, every body have >got > > experience theirself. Remember, we have the same of goal, but we have > > different way to achieve it. These sentences macth what The Buddha said. > > Be happier, be better everyday > > N: Dear Purnomo, can we practice without listening first to the >teachings? >Is the beginning of the development of understanding not listening and >considering? We are not like the Buddha who found the Truth all by himself. >We need to listen first. That is: learning, considering, verifying in our >own life what we hear. As you say, everybody has to experience the truth >himself. If we just sit in mmeditation but do not know our own cittas, how >can we be sure that we practise in the right way? For example, we may wish >to develop the meditation subject of metta, lovingkindness, but if we do >not >know the different moments of citta we may confuse attachment to a person >and unselfish love. As the Visuddhimagga explains, attachment is the near >enemy of metta. This is just an example to show that there cannot be the >right meditation without learning what the Buddha taught about the >different >cittas and other phenomena of our life. >What is our goal? The Buddha taught that only right understanding of >realities can eradicate ignorance and the other defilements. First clinging >to self has to be eradicated. We can learn that whatever arises is just a >conditioned reality, non-self. You say that we have different ways to >achieve the goal. It is very useful to remember that whatever we do is only >a conditioned reality. Suppose someone likes to sit in meditation and >believes that he can develop a calm state of mind. Why is that? Because it >is his accumulated inclination, he has done this before. If this is so, let >him than realize that it is not self who is doing this, only a conditioned >nama. He could also consider what his purpose is and what he comes to know >by sitting. Is there a subtle attachment to calm? Does he come to know his >own citta? Whatever you do, develop more understanding of your own citta, >that is the Abhidhamma in the practice. We have to be very sincere and find >out when we are clinging to the self. Not only when sitting but also when >working, talking or eating. >Thank you for your good wish to become better everyday. How? only by >understanding more my own citta. And evenso, there are ups and downs all >the >way, don't you find that? >Many religions teach: do good, do good. Only the Buddha taught the way: >understanding of realities. No matter he spoke about sila, the development >of calm, or vipassana, the development of understanding of realities was >always implied in his teachings. From beginning to end. Only the Buddha >could teach the true nature of realities, only the Buddha could teach that >realities are non-self. >With metta, Nina. > 5510 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Mike --- m. nease wrote: > Jon, > > It does come from AN X, 61 in the PTS version. Woodward's > translation is quite different though I don't think the meaning's > changed much--who translated the Wisdom version? (I definitely prefer > it). Thanks for pointing out (off-list) my mistake here. For the benefit of all, the translation 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' is published by AltaMira and is a translation by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera (for BPS, many years ago) revised and supplemented by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Although it contains only a small selection of the Anguttara Nikaya suttas, is is a useful book to have. Here's the PTS for comparison: > > "Release by knowledge, monks, I declare has its nutriment , it is not > without nutriment. And what is the nutriment of release by > knowledge? "The seven limbs of wisdom" should be the reply. The > seven limbs of wisdom, I declare, have their nutriment. What? "The > four arisings of mindfulness" should be the reply. They too have > their nutriment, the three ways of right practice. And they, control > of the faculties of sense. The nutriment of these is mindfulness and > self-posession. Their nutriment is thorough work of mind. Of that > the nutriment is faith. The nutriment of faith is listening to true > dhamma. And what is the nutriment of listening to true > dhamma? "Following afer the very man" should be the reply. > > "Thus, monks, following after the very man, when complete, completes > listening to true dhamma; listening to true dhamma completes faith; > faith completes thorough work of mind; and that, mindfulness and self- > posession; that, control of the sense-faculties; that, the three > right ways of practice; that, the four arisings of mindfulness; and > that, the seven limbs of wisdom; while the seven limbs of wisdom, > when complete, complete release by knowledge." Thanks for quoting this. I think I agree with you about the preferred version. Bh. Bodhi's translations are more accessible than most of the earlier ones. Jon > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > The 2 are presented as 1 in the Wisdom version ('Numerical > > Discourses of the Buddha'), so I'll have to check my PTS version > > when I get home. > > > --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > > Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN > > > X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books). > > > > > > mike > > > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > When association with superior people prevails, > > > listening to the true > > > Dhamma will prevail. > > > When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will > > > > > > prevail. > > > When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. > > > When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear > > > comprehension will > > > prevail. > > > When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, > > > restraint of the senses > > > will prevail. > > > When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of > > > good conduct will > > > prevail. > > > When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 > > > foundations of mindfulness > > > will prevail. > > > When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 > > > factors of > > > enlightenment will prevail. > > > When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, > > > liberation by supreme > > > knowledge will prevail. > 5511 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 3:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Hi, Robert (and Paul) - In a message dated 6/9/01 2:29:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > Dear Paul, > Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in > Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to > the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were > running very late and sarah was showing some agitation. > These friends then said that "this shows how much more > understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same > thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only got > her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no > concern at all. > Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said > was "they don't understand the path". > > You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they > appear. > I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises > (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is > sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there > are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to > happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and > felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the > original one". > I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members. > Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so > they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious > (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not > really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious > feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they > don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However, > to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree, > they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to > view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana). > In the Brahmajala sutta (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of > views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant > matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a > wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata. > And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere > moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not > killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle > chatter.. no meals after midday....etc. > > As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your > outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this. > They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger > forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust > and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no > insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might > appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling. > If they discussed much with you they would know more about your > insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the > buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then > they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe > they would think it is natural - if they understood the > conditioned nature of dhammas. > robert > > ================================== Thank you for this and the previous post to Paul. They are both so clear (as usual) and so informative. I think that part of the reason that many Buddhists act in a certain fashion, appearing calm etc when they are not so may be an unrealized confusion between the fruits of the path and the walking of the path, a confusion which leads to repressing various reactions and even unconsciously playing at enlightenment. Instead of adopting the attitude that all that arises should be attended to nonjudgementally, without adding further reaction, we may, instead, try to forcefully repress afflictive reactions and even fool ourselves into not accepting their existence. As you point out with the example of anger, various defilements remain until certain stages are reached, and all the repression and play acting in the world won't change that. The thing is, as I see it, as a consequence of wanting to *do* something about afflictions, probably all of us at one time or another, fall victim to the confusion between what's required to walk the path, on the one hand, which preeminently includes unrelenting attention to, and mindfulness of, whatever arises, and, on the other hand, the simulating of the fruits of the path by repression, ignoring, and play acting. One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to deny the importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An important function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination to react at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, see the inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting it build and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the opposite. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5512 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:13pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] > You make some good points. We are in danger of being in more-or- less > substantial agreement here! Uh oh! > Even so, Dan, a formal samatha practice can only account for so much time > in a day. For the rest of the day (23 or so hours out of the 24) > realities continue to present themselves through different doorways, and > these are potential objects of weak awareness - as long as we don't rule > that possibility out. Right. Dan 5513 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Howard, Thanks for understanding exactly what I meant. Sometimes there is a reaction against this type of post because someone thinks I am essentially saying "anger is fine, sila is nothing, samatha is a waste of energy"- (I am not) . As you say, guarding the senses is part and parcel of the path. It is such a fine line between supression at one extreme and indulgence at another. The middle path is one of acceptance and investigation without the idea of control. Part of the inspiration for those posts came about after the gentleman, on the recent "masturbation" issue (d-l), admitted (honestly and bravely!) that he masturbates BUT that he is traumatised by guilt whenever he does. He is trying to live an ideal Buddhist life but without understanding. All of us have such unique accumulations of merit (pubekata punatta ) and demerit (the asava etc.)- they can't be brought to a halt or rapidly increased simply by deciding that something is right or wrong. Truly the path is gradual and it is insight that removes wrong view that should be of uppermost concern. Vedana is one important object and also there should be understanding of the moments of seeing(nama) and colour(rupa)etc. robert --- Howard wrote: > > Thank you for this and the previous post to Paul. They > are both so > clear (as usual) and so informative. > I think that part of the reason that many Buddhists act > in a certain > fashion, appearing calm etc when they are not so may be an > unrealized > confusion between the fruits of the path and the walking of > the path, a > confusion which leads to repressing various reactions and even > unconsciously > playing at enlightenment. Instead of adopting the attitude > that all that > arises should be attended to nonjudgementally, without adding > further > reaction, we may, instead, try to forcefully repress > afflictive reactions and > even fool ourselves into not accepting their existence. As > you point out > with the example of anger, various defilements remain until > certain stages > are reached, and all the repression and play acting in the > world won't change > that. The thing is, as I see it, as a consequence of wanting > to *do* > something about afflictions, probably all of us at one time or > another, fall > victim to the confusion between what's required to walk the > path, on the one > hand, which preeminently includes unrelenting attention to, > and mindfulness > of, whatever arises, and, on the other hand, the simulating of > the fruits of > the path by repression, ignoring, and play acting. > One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding > is to deny the > importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. > An important > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the > inclination to react > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of > vedana, see the > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to > letting it build > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the > opposite. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 5514 From: Erik Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:33pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Even so, Dan, a formal samatha practice can only account for so much time > in a day. For the rest of the day (23 or so hours out of the 24) > realities continue to present themselves through different doorways, and > these are potential objects of weak awareness - as long as we don't rule > that possibility out. Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The hindrances may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions because of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot more than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that one is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise. One of the things I am sensing in this dialogue is resistance to the practice of shamatha. I am curious as to why there seems to be this resistance to a practice heavily encuoraged by the Buddha. The question I have is, does anyone really believe that cultivating samatha isn't important or necessary? Even those stalking the elusive khanika-samadhi won't have the conditions to experience absorption with hindrances present. I guess I am trying to understand what, specifically, is the objection to samatha as a necessary component of the path? Again, I think of the Yugganaddah, the conjoined pair of samatha & vipassana. Why are these a "conjoined" pair if not because they are mutuality conditions for the arising of insight? Here's my reasoning on the matter. We need to stack the deck in our favor in every conceivable way if we have any true desire to awaken. That is because it is so difficult and unpredictable in the best of circumstances. While it is impossible to "force" awakening, there are certain conditions that must obtain across-the-board. And if any of these conditions is missing, even the tiniest one, then the conditions for lokuttara panna do not exist, and thus, lacking conditions, lokuttara panna CANNOT arise. And a person wouldn't even be aware that they were missing one or more of these essential factors! What I am saying is that this is the only shot we have at getting out of this madhouse, as far as we can know. There is no "future life" (or if this is a consideration, then renunciation has not gone nearly deep enough, because true renunciation means giving up even on happy future lives and dedicating all activities for the greatest benefit of self & other here & now, as if this were one's only life--because for all intents and purposes it is). None of these things was clear to me before I recieved the Tibetan Lam Rim ("Stages on the Path") teachings that teach Renunciation, Bodhicitta, and Right View as the three essential components of the path. One must look at this to understand why these three steps together can be so effective. Renunciation serves as the foundation for Bodhicitta (mind of enlightenment--the wish to achieve Buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings conventionally, and emptiness ultimately). Renunciation works from two angles (approaches found in the Vis.): meditating on the sufferings of samsara, that suffering here is without end; and meditating on a precious human rebirth (the turtle and wooden yoke) that unless one dedicates all one's resources to getting off NOW, the odds of having such an incredible opportunity again are in question. When this renunciation is fully developed, one will have completely given up on getting anything from this world, and then be willing to put into practice anything one suspects may demonstrate benefit. There is no better support for the viriya needed to complete the course than renunciation, because it helps reduce everything to the most essential. To me, it would be exceedingly foolish to never attempt a meditation strategy as central as samatha because one believes it unimportant. The fact is it's impossible to go wrong cultivating samatha, even as an experiment. The worst that can happen is that one will discover that it doesn't work. But what if it DOES work? If there's a chance it can help at all, anyone with wisdom would at least give it a fair shake, given its emphasis in the suttas. Again, we need the deck stacked in our favor every which way to realize the fruits of the Dhamma in this body. 5515 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 9:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Erik, there are different types of meditation. In the Udana P75 trans. Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an object and on account of meditating on a characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana while the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is true that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads out of samsara because even one masters the first they must eventually learn to study the characteristics of even jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned nature of this phenomena. I know it is believed by many that if one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to then study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do accept that all kusala is supportive to some degree). . If one can attain high states of genuine samatha easily it is because they have accumulations from past lives towards this. It is supposed that in these times there are relatively few people who do have such accumulations. Even if one doesn't have those accumulations they can be developed; the only thing I could say against this is that direct satipatthana is even more profitable, not that trying to develop samatha is wrong. You say there is no danger in trying to develop samatha. Well that depends - it takes much time- and one can get fixated on it to the exclusion of vipassana. If one doesn't understand samatha one can mistake miccha-samadhi for the real thing. I could tell you tales of people who have gone badly astray because of miccha-samadhi. We should let these things be known - if one really has the wish to develop samatha to a high degree then fine but they can benefit from learning about the difference between samatha and vipassana. Sometimes the buddha explained different types of samadhi: Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta Firstly, is the usual type of samatha we see in the texts: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now." endquote ----------------------------------- Here is another type - that of satipatthana: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. " endquote ------------------- And this type is the type that arises in advanced stages of vipassana (following satipatthana): "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' robert 5516 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:18pm Subject: Keeping the sila (was Re: Fwd : Questions) Dear ChaiLiang, This topic may have been discussed to your satisfaction already, but I would like to contribute for the sake of reminding myself. When we feel bad thinking about "we" breaking the sila, there is no awareness and understading at the moment that because there is no shame and fear of faults that the infraction becomes possible. When we often think I am this, I am that, it shows that the memory, the familiarity and association, and the knowledge about the non-self are weak and unstable. Wholesome citta, such as sila, arises because there are conditions for it to arises; unwholesome citta, such as breaking the sila, arises because there are conditions for it to arise. Unless we permanently eradicate the conditions for breaking the sila, breaking the sila is bound to occur. Of course, this is not saying that there shouldn't be a development of all wholesome states whenever possible. On the other hand, we should remember that as long as there are conditions for an unwholesome citta to arise, it is bound to arise. There can be studying of the characteristics of such citta at such moment, and we can find out for ourself why unwholesome mental states are not too nice, and eventually why it occurs. kom --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Paul, > You speak my mind and predicament.... I have been caught too many > times in these situations... but what I try to explain is this... though we > may indirectly break precepts be intentional or unintentional or even > circumstantial.... (but let's not get into that) the thing is .... we try to > keep the precepts as humanly pure as possible... we try to practise the > Dhamma as humans with its faults... and sometimes this is being viewed as " > see ... you are not a good example " even in Dhamma... but somehow to the > outsider this is so.... though we may know that there are conditions and > being merely humans.... (sort of not practising what you preach type of > scenario.... it is so frustrating sometimes... I know that Buddhism that > allows for this human fault (or should I say imperfect being) which I feel > Christianity is lacking... the human factor.... > > Loke CL > > > -----Original Message----- > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: > > Fwd: Questions) > > > > Dear Robert, > > > > I agree with your analysis. However, I think one of the most difficult > > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as > > "representing" > > Dharma. For example, we are working at some Dharma function and some new > > person catches us with our defilements showing. Or a relative is aware > > that > > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or self- righteous or > > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that "Buddhism can't be > > so > > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your disposition." Maybe > > they > > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine they are > > thinking > > that. I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a situation, even > > > > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient being, and in > > no > > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma. > > > > Paul Bail > > > > > > 5517 From: Erik Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:27pm Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Erik, > there are different types of meditation. Hi Robert, No disagreement from me on this. > In the Udana P75 trans. > Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative > grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an > object and on account of meditating on a > characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises > at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana while > the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is true > that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads out > of samsara because even one masters the first they must > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned > nature of this phenomena. I know it is believed by many that if > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to then > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do accept > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). There is again no disagreement on the fact that only vipassana leads out of samsara. However, what are the conditions for true vipassana to arise? I really believe this is the central point of this debate, that there is some disagreement on the importance of suppressing the hindrances as a prerequisite for insight. My point with samatha is that it does quell mental disturbances and "tightens" concentration and mindfulness, which can only be of benefit for any sort of vipassana. It's a "stacking the deck" issue again. If there are too many disturbances in the mind, there is no way even khanika-samadhi can arise. How many here have khanika-samadhi all the time? I know I don't (in fact one of the big reasons I went to Thailand was for instructions on this particular type of practice, as it is totally nonexistent in Tibetan Buddhism). I have also been practicing this type of insight outside of seated meditation for years, investigating the characteristics of dhammas. I have found for myself the different between having samatha as a component vs. lacking samatha as a component is like night and day. Vipassana is SO much easier for me to cultivate when the hindrances are suppressed. This leaves mne to concentrate on the arammana, not on fighting mental disturbances. It's a matter of freeing up energy, I think. If there is too many hindrances present, mental energy is consumed by them, leaving nothing left over to penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas. Samatha, to me, is like a magnifying glass, which takes the light of insight and uses it to focus on arammana with enough force to completely penetrate the lakkhana. This requires enormous concentration, and any diffusion of energies at this point will prevent the deeper levels of vipassana-nana from arising. > If one can attain high states of genuine samatha easily it is > because they have accumulations from past lives towards this. It > is supposed that in these times there are relatively few people > who do have such accumulations. I also find this questionable, given the number of practitioners who do this exclusively (and I include all Mahayana), so I am not at all certain the basis for this view. The numbers of those with the accumulations for samatha says otherwise. > Even if one doesn't have those > accumulations they can be developed; Exactly. > the only thing I could say > against this is that direct satipatthana is even more > profitable, not that trying to develop samatha is wrong. "More profitable." Yes, but one must have satipatthana in the first place! How can satipatthana arise when the mind is afflicted by the hindrances? How many here have true satipatthana? Again, my point is, if one can honestly say that all this practice has not led to the insight penetrating the characteristics of dhammas, then there is obviously some set of conditions missing that must be addressed. It is simply impossible to understand how effective samatha is at suppressing the nivaranas unless one has had some success with it. It is a really big deal to be free from these afflictions, because only in that narrow window of freedom from the hindrances can true insight arise. > You say > there is no danger in trying to develop samatha. Well that > depends - it takes much time- and one can get fixated on it to > the exclusion of vipassana. I agree. However, when is it time to pursue vipassana? Before one has studied the Dharma in some depth? Before one knows what one is supposed to be looking for? It is possible to become fixated on samatha. But look, if one is under the guidance of an experienced teacher, is this really much of a danger? What about the "danger" of investigating dhammas without the appropriate understanding? It is easy to think one has insight when one does not. That is why the ten corruptions of insight are listed at all. Most beginners are started on samatha in my tradition. This provides the foundation for deeper levels of awareness to arise. We have to look at this dispassionately, mechanistically, in terms of cause-and- effect. The fact is the presence of the hindrances WILL block insight, as Dan noted in earlier posts. This is not in dispute. > If one doesn't understand samatha > one can mistake miccha-samadhi for the real thing. I could tell > you tales of people who have gone badly astray because of > miccha-samadhi. I know, I've had experience of developing miccha-samadhi myself, and that is a nasty habit to break. That is why the instructions of noting mental scattering and mental sinking are so important, and correcting for these problems as they arise in the course of meditation. The greatest enemy for me has been "subtle laxity," a sort of dullness that mistakes dull attention to an object for appana. This is why all sorts of prescriptive practices exist, to counteract these tendencies. Anyone pursuing jhana meditaion must be trained in this anyway. > We should let these things be known - if one > really has the wish to develop samatha to a high degree then > fine but they can benefit from learning about the difference > between samatha and vipassana. I think we are doing a good job of clearly distinguishing between the two here. Robert, as always, enjoy your great stuff, and look forward to more. 5518 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Howard, --- Howard wrote: > An important > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch > the inclination to react > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the > arising of vedana, see the > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as > opposed to letting it build > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is > just the opposite. I agree (with all the preceding too) and very well said. A couple of minor points: I think that our conventional sense of the experience described above is 'something like, 'Since I recognize this (akusala) for what it is, I'll let it go, rather than acting on it further (mentally, verbally or physically)'--when what's happening ultimately is that awareness, cognition, understanding and so on have already arisen and subsided many times before these thoughts have arisen, and the akusala has already been supplanted by these and many other subsequent activities (often including bliss e.g.). The danger of this (in my case) is that it's easy to fall into the habit (back to speaking conventionally) of supplanting akusala-with-displeasure with akusala-with-delight; mistaking the latter for kusala; and, of course, taking them all three for my doing', strengthening self-view, conceit and so on. This is a huge problem for a great many Buddhists I've known (myself included). Though the driving out of akusala even by real kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in the sense that it has no (or rather infinitesimally little)effect on the underlying habitual tendency. I think this is key to understanding the otherwise inexplicably obdurate nature of what we perceive as personality (I believe this agrees with what you said above). On a personal and very conventional note, 'I'm' habituated to a lot of kusala reflections just because some akusala is overtly painful and they make for a much more 'pleasant abiding here and now'. It's a kind of misuse, really, but I'm not about to stop (or maybe not until real understanding replaces them). Finally, to repeat what you said, 'None of the preceding is to deny the importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort'. Personally I think it's very valuable, without discounting the conventional view (as this is the way the Buddha usually taught), to distinguish carefully between the conventional and the ultimate, most especially where self-view is concerned. mike 5519 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 2:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal Thank you Kom, much appreciated. For this and everything else; I am grateful. Metta Cybele >From: "Kom Tukovinit" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal >Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 14:15:34 -0000 > >Dear Cybele, > >Here's the Buddha's criteria when determining what to speak: >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn058.html#criteria. > >I think it would be decietful if one is asked a question, and one avoids or >represents the truths. However, there is no need to speak about our >miseries to others unless the persons consents to listen or asks to hear >about them. > >kom > 5520 From: Dan Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:20am Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Rob: > > In the Udana P75 trans. > > Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative > > grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an > > object and on account of meditating on a > > characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises > > at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana while > > the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is true > > that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads out > > of samsara because even one masters the first they must > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned > > nature of this phenomena. Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that arises at the present moment"? Rob: > >I know it is believed by many that if > > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to then > > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do accept > > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). There is no need to have any doubts about this. Suppressing the hindrances is necessary for clear insight to arise. If a mind that has suppressed the hindrances is bent toward understanding, the conditions for sharp, clear insight are greatly enhanced in a way that just doesn't happen when samadhi is not as strong. This is not to say that samadhi necessarily leads to insight, but it can strengthen it. Erik: > component is like night and day. Vipassana is SO much easier for me > to cultivate when the hindrances are suppressed. This leaves mne to > concentrate on the arammana, not on fighting mental disturbances. > It's a matter of freeing up energy, I think. If there is too many > hindrances present, mental energy is consumed by them, leaving > nothing left over to penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas. I find that the hindrances obscure reality, marring the vision, attenuating insight. Rob: > > the only thing I could say > > against this is that direct satipatthana is even more > > profitable, not that trying to develop samatha is wrong. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. It depends on the state of mind at a given time. Erik: > place! How can satipatthana arise when the mind is afflicted by the > hindrances? Surely, a weak, attenuated insight can arise, but a sharp, penetrating insight cannot. Rob: > > You say > > there is no danger in trying to develop samatha. Well that > > depends - it takes much time- and one can get fixated on it to > > the exclusion of vipassana. Practice vipassana. When samadhi is weak, recognize it and cultivate samadhi. Dan 5521 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] --- Dan wrote: > Rob: > > > In the Udana P75 trans. > > > Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative > > > grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on > an > > > object and on account of meditating on a > > > characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that > arises > > > at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana > while > > > the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is > true > > > that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads > out > > > of samsara because even one masters the first they must > > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even > > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned > > > nature of this phenomena. > >DAN: Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that arises at > the > present moment"? Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate? ___________ > > Rob: > > >I know it is believed by many that if > > > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to > then > > > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do > accept > > > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). > > There is no need to have any doubts about this. Suppressing > the > hindrances is necessary for clear insight to arise. If a mind > that > has suppressed the hindrances is bent toward understanding, > the > conditions for sharp, clear insight are greatly enhanced in a > way > that just doesn't happen when samadhi is not as strong. This > is not > to say that samadhi necessarily leads to insight, but it can > strengthen it. > ______________________ Could you explain what samadhi is as you see it and how you get it. What object do you use? robert 5522 From: Paul Bail Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 2:07pm Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Mike, What you have written is an interesting response to an interesting thread. Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean in the following: "Personally I think it's very valuable, without discounting the conventional view (as this is the way the Buddhausually taught), to distinguish carefully between the conventional and the ultimate, most especially where self-view is concerned." Also, you said: "Though the driving out of akusala even by real kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in the sense that it has no (or rather infinitesimally little)effect on the underlying habitual tendency." So, in your understanding, what is it that roots out the habitual tendency? Looking forward to reading your reply, Paul Bail --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Dear Howard, > > --- Howard wrote: > > > An important > > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch > > the inclination to react > > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the > > arising of vedana, see the > > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as > > opposed to letting it build > > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is > > just the opposite. > > I agree (with all the preceding too) and very well > said. A couple of minor points: > > I think that our conventional sense of the experience > described above is 'something like, 'Since I recognize > this (akusala) for what it is, I'll let it go, rather > than acting on it further (mentally, verbally or > physically)'--when what's happening ultimately is that > awareness, cognition, understanding and so on have > already arisen and subsided many times before these > thoughts have arisen, and the akusala has already been > supplanted by these and many other subsequent > activities (often including bliss e.g.). The danger > of this (in my case) is that it's easy to fall into > the habit (back to speaking conventionally) of > supplanting akusala-with-displeasure with > akusala-with-delight; mistaking the latter for kusala; > and, of course, taking them all three for my doing', > strengthening self-view, conceit and so on. This is a > huge problem for a great many Buddhists I've known > (myself included). > > Though the driving out of akusala even by real kusala > isn't repression, it is still suppression in the sense > that it has no (or rather infinitesimally > little)effect on the underlying habitual tendency. I > think this is key to understanding the otherwise > inexplicably obdurate nature of what we perceive as > personality (I believe this agrees with what you said > above). > > On a personal and very conventional note, 'I'm' > habituated to a lot of kusala reflections just because > some akusala is overtly painful and they make for a > much more 'pleasant abiding here and now'. It's a > kind of misuse, really, but I'm not about to stop (or > maybe not until real understanding replaces them). > > Finally, to repeat what you said, 'None of the > preceding is to deny the importance of guarding the > senses and exercising right effort'. Personally I > think it's very valuable, without discounting the > conventional view (as this is the way the Buddha > usually taught), to distinguish carefully between the > conventional and the ultimate, most especially where > self-view is concerned. > > mike > 5523 From: Erik Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:09pm Subject: Request for Books Hello kind dsg denizens, To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries (but especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase them myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd give anyone who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to give the gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home. The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in my bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now becoming dog- eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of Dharma will not be collecting dust. Erik 5524 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:24pm Subject: New Book Dear Group, I've just, with the great help of david, put chapters 1-6 The perfections leading to Enlightenment on the web . i'll put the remaining chapters on later . it still has some formatting and typos to correct. http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm robert 5525 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness of Hindrances Nina Many thanks for your comments on this subject and especially for the reminder from the Samyutta Nikaya that the hindrances must (like all other realities) be known. Only by being comprehended can they be finally eradicated. I have just come across the following, no doubt well-known, passage from the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) which seems to confirm that the devlopment of awareness of the reality of the present moment is the same whether the reality of that moment is one of the hindrances or not. "Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances. And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances? Here, there being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual desire in me'; or there being no sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no sensual desire in me' … There being ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is ill-will in me'; or there being no ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no ill-will in me' … There being sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'; or there being no sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'; …" Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jonothan, I like your post on the hindrances, especially where you > stressed the relevance of the study of the hindrances to the development > of > the eightfold Path. In this respect I would like to quote from the > Lexicon > explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written > by > Santi Phantakeong : > < If there is the firm understanding that the hindrances are dhammas > which > are reality, there are conditions for the arising of satipatthana which > can > be aware of the characteristic of a particular hindrance according to > conditions. Then the akusala that is a hindrance is the object of panna > which knows the truth and in that way the clinging to the view that > akusala > is self can be abandoned.> > I would like to add that if there is no mindfulness, the hindrances, > ignorance included, can weaken insight. But at the moment of mindfulness > of > whatever appears, be it wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala, > insight > can grow. There are many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness, but > these > moments are conditioned, because they arose also in the past, life after > life. Can we notice them during the day? There is a difference between > forgetfulness of realities and mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, > there > is no notion of my hand touching the table, but only one nama or rupa > appearing through one of the six doors. Just hardness may appear through > the > bodysense. After that there are bound to be many moments of being > absorbed > in concepts such as table or hand. It is not easy to learn the > difference > between forgetfulness and ignorance of realities, and mindfulness of > just > one reality at a time. Very gradually we can begin to know the > difference. > More understanding of the fact that whatever arises, be it kusala or > akusala, is conditioned, will help us to gradually let go of the concept > that it is my akusala. I would like to quote from the "Kindred Sayings" > (V, > Mahavagga, Book I, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Ch VIII, the Flood) where > it > has been repeated with regard to all the different groups of defilements > that they have to be fully comprehended. We read about the Hindrances: > < Monks, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of > sensual desire, the hindrance of malevolence, the hindrance of sloth and > torpor, the hindrance of excitement and flurry, the hindrance of doubt > and > wavering. These are the five hindrances. It is for the full > comprehension, > realization, wearing down and abandoning that the ariyan eightfold Way > must > be cultivated.> > In this text the hindrances are classified as fivefold, and then > ignorance is not among them, but in different texts they are classified > in > different ways. However, there is ignorance with every kind of akusala. > In > the same sutta ignorance is mentioned among the five higher fetters > which > must be abandoned by full comprehension. > With metta, Nina van Gorkom. 5526 From: Dan Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:56pm Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Robert: > > > > of samsara because even one masters [samadhi] they must > > > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even > > > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned > > > > nature of this phenomena. > > > >DAN: Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that arises > at > > the > > present moment"? > ROBERT: > Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate? How can studying the characteristics of jhana after leaving it be awareness of an object that arises at the present moment? After all, haven't the characteristics of jhana passed away with the passing away of jhana? > > Rob: > > > >I know it is believed by many that if > > > > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to > > then > > > > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do > > accept > > > > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). DAN: > > There is no need to have any doubts about this. Suppressing > > the > > hindrances is necessary for clear insight to arise. If a mind > > that > > has suppressed the hindrances is bent toward understanding, > > the > > conditions for sharp, clear insight are greatly enhanced in a > > way > > that just doesn't happen when samadhi is not as strong. This > > is not > > to say that samadhi necessarily leads to insight, but it can > > strengthen it. > > ROBERT: > Could you explain what samadhi is as you see it and how you get > it. What object do you use? So many good questions! I am thinking of samadhi as steadfast, calm concentration on some "object". It is accompanied by tranquility and pliancy of mind. Well-developed samadhi is "right concentration" of the eightfold path, which is jhana, but the development needn't be that refined to warrant the term "samadhi". How to get it...I don't really understand your question. Do you mean how do I get it, personally? Or how does it arise? Or how does one go about getting it in general? Or what conditions are conducive to its cultivation? Are you asking about the mechanical, physical, external, material trappings that serve as support for its arising? Or in the mental processes associated with its arising? Or the relationship between the material trappings and the mental processes? The object...Are you asking about my personal habits and practices and experiences? Or about what objects can be used to help cultivate samadhi? Dan 5527 From: Dan Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: Awareness of Hindrances Dear Jon, Your passage from MN 10 is wonderful, but could you explain how this confirms the view that development of awareness of the reality of the present moment is the same whether the reality of that moment is one of the hindrances or not? I just don't see any comparisons being made between awareness of hindrances and awareness of other dhammas, much less how the development of awareness is "the same" regardless of object. Dan 5528 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] --- Dan wrote: > Robert: > > > > > of samsara because even one masters [samadhi] they > must > > > > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even > > > > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the > conditioned > > > > > nature of this phenomena. > > > > > >DAN: Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that > arises > > at > > > the > > > present moment"? > > > ROBERT: > > Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate? > > How can studying the characteristics of jhana after leaving it > be > awareness of an object that arises at the present moment? > After all, > haven't the characteristics of jhana passed away with the > passing > away of jhana? ___________________ Awareness of conventional jhana is not possible while the jhana exists. For those who have mastery of jhana, if they also have the understanding and accumulations for vipassana, there may arise awareness immediately after the processes where jhana is completed. This happens so quickly - considering that in a flash of lightning already billions of mind processes have fallen away. We still talk about awareness of the present moment. No one could control the arising of such awareness but if the conditions are right it may occur. > . > > > > > ROBERT: > > Could you explain what samadhi is as you see it and how you > get > > it. What object do you use? > > So many good questions! I am thinking of samadhi as steadfast, > calm > concentration on some "object". It is accompanied by > tranquility and > pliancy of mind. Well-developed samadhi is "right > concentration" of > the eightfold path, which is jhana, but the development > needn't be > that refined to warrant the term "samadhi". ________________________________________ What are the objects that are possible? Samma-samadhi is used in different ways in the suttas. Is it always of the eightfold path? In the brahmajala sutta the Buddha notes some of the reasons for Miccha-ditthi (wrong view)"There are bhikkhus some recluses and bramins who are eternalists and who on 4 grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal. In the first case some reculse or brahmin ..attains to some degree of mental concentartion that with his mind thus concentrated (purified, unblemished devoid of corruptions) he recollects his numerous past lives...He speaks thus the world and self are eternal... It then lists two other cases where in each jhana has been attained but is a basis for wrong view. ____________ > > How to get it...I don't really understand your question. Do > you mean > how do I get it, personally? Or how does it arise? Or how does > one go > about getting it in general? Or what conditions are conducive > to its > cultivation? Are you asking about the mechanical, physical, > external, > material trappings that serve as support for its arising? Or > in the > mental processes associated with its arising? Or the > relationship > between the material trappings and the mental processes? > > The object...Are you asking about my personal habits and > practices > and experiences? Or about what objects can be used to help > cultivate > samadhi? __________________ As you are a practioner of samatha I was wondering what object or objects you find beneficial. Do you need to be in a special posture, or place? robert 5529 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Paul, --- Paul Bail wrote: > Dear Mike, > > What you have written is an interesting response to > an interesting > thread. Could you elaborate and clarify what you > mean in the > following: > > "Personally I think it's very valuable, without > discounting the > conventional view (as this is the way the > Buddhausually taught), to > distinguish carefully between the conventional and > the ultimate, most > especially where self-view is concerned." The Buddha spoke in most of the discourses in conventional terms, as if the monks and householders and so on whom he was addressing were 'selves' with the power to think, speak and act. Ultimately he was uniquely aware that this was not the case. So it seems clear (to me) that his conventional (personal) speech was meant to condition the arising of the various (impersonal) wholesome states leading to insight, understanding and liberation. > Also, you said: "Though the driving out of akusala > even by real > kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in > the sense > that it has no (or rather infinitesimally > little)effect on the > underlying habitual tendency." > So, in your understanding, what is it that roots out > the habitual > tendency? It is paņņaa (wisdom; knowledge; insight). As I understand it, the latent tendencies can't really be rooted out. They are eradicated in very small increments by very weak or shallow moments of insight into the four foundations; or potentially in much larger increments by much stronger or profound moments. "What is the accomplishment of wisdom? "Herein a householder is wise: he is endowed with wisdom that understands the arising and cessation (of the five aggregates of existence); he is possessed of the noble penetrating insight that leads to the destruction of suffering. This is called the accomplishment of wisdom." Anguttara Nikaya VIII.54 Vyagghapajja Sutta (Dighajanu Sutta) Conditions of Welfare http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html Paul, I'm NO scholar and have only a flawed, sketchy and elementary knowledge of all of this theory, which I accept as a working hypothesis. There are many others on the list with far more detailed and accurate understanding. Nice meeting you. mike 5530 From: Dan Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 5:44am Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Robert, > Awareness of conventional jhana is not possible while the jhana > exists. For those who have mastery of jhana, if they also have > the understanding and accumulations for vipassana, there may > arise awareness immediately after the processes where jhana is > completed. This happens so quickly - considering that in a flash > of lightning already billions of mind processes have fallen > away. We still talk about awareness of the present moment. Yes, we can talk of it that way, but it really isn't that way. Does Buddha talk about this reflection and review of past states of consciousness as "awareness of the present moment"? Or does he talk about it as understanding the conditioned and unsatisfactoriness of jhana AFTER emerging from jhana. I just don't see why we should talk about something past as something present. > What are the objects that are possible? Vissudhimagga gives 40 suggestions. Is that all that are possible? I would think not. Does Vism. or anyone else say these are the ONLY 40? > Samma-samadhi is used in different ways in the suttas. Is it > always of the eightfold path? > In the brahmajala sutta the Buddha notes some of the reasons > for Miccha-ditthi (wrong view)"There are bhikkhus some recluses > and bramins who are eternalists and who on 4 grounds proclaim > the self and the world to be eternal. In the first case some > reculse or brahmin ..attains to some degree of mental > concentartion that with his mind thus concentrated (purified, > unblemished devoid of corruptions) he recollects his numerous > past lives...He speaks thus the world and self are eternal... > It then lists two other cases where in each jhana has been > attained but is a basis for wrong view. The samma-samadhi of the eightfold path is defined as jhana. And jhana is kusala. If wrong view arises in one who misinterprets jhana, can jhana be said to be a BASIS for wrong view, or is it the misinterpretation, the unwise attention to the consciousness that has passed? The latter would point to ignorance as the basis for wrong view, not jhana itself. > As you are a practioner of samatha I was wondering what object > or objects you find beneficial. Do you need to be in a special > posture, or place? Now, this is interesting... I've never thought of myself as a practitioner of samatha, and I don't recall ever saying that I do this or that samatha practice. I'm wondering how you would know that I am a samatha practitioner? Is it because I come to the defense of samatha? Is it because I argue that samatha can be beneficial by sharpening insight should conditions for insight arise? Just curious... Dan 5531 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Mike Great to have your well-thought out posts back again, and I look forward to more of the same. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Paul, > > --- Paul Bail wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > > > What you have written is an interesting response to > > an interesting > > thread. Could you elaborate and clarify what you > > mean in the > > following: > > > > "Personally I think it's very valuable, without > > discounting the > > conventional view (as this is the way the > > Buddhausually taught), to > > distinguish carefully between the conventional and > > the ultimate, most > > especially where self-view is concerned." > > The Buddha spoke in most of the discourses in > conventional terms, as if the monks and householders > and so on whom he was addressing were 'selves' with > the power to think, speak and act. Ultimately he was > uniquely aware that this was not the case. So it > seems clear (to me) that his conventional (personal) > speech was meant to condition the arising of the > various (impersonal) wholesome states leading to > insight, understanding and liberation. Yes, and he also uniquely knew the (mostly highly-developed) accumulations of his listeners, including the extent to which they were capable of seeing beyond the merely conventional. > > Also, you said: "Though the driving out of akusala > > even by real > > kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in > > the sense > > that it has no (or rather infinitesimally > > little)effect on the > > underlying habitual tendency." > > So, in your understanding, what is it that roots out > > the habitual > > tendency? > > It is paņņaa (wisdom; knowledge; insight). As I > understand it, the latent tendencies can't really be > rooted out. They are eradicated in very small > increments by very weak or shallow moments of insight > into the four foundations; or potentially in much > larger increments by much stronger or profound > moments. Yes, this is my understanding of the teaching also. And thanks for the sutta reference that follows. Jon > "What is the accomplishment of wisdom? > > "Herein a householder is wise: he is endowed with > wisdom that understands the arising and cessation (of > the five aggregates of existence); he is possessed of > the noble penetrating insight that leads to the > destruction of suffering. This is called the > accomplishment of wisdom." > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.54 > Vyagghapajja Sutta > (Dighajanu Sutta) > Conditions of Welfare > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html > > Paul, I'm NO scholar and have only a flawed, sketchy > and elementary knowledge of all of this theory, which > I accept as a working hypothesis. There are many > others on the list with far more detailed and accurate > understanding. > > > Nice meeting you. > > mike > 5532 From: wynn Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 3:19pm Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies1 Hi, Johannes Bronkhorst, in his book, The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India list dowm a number of contradictions/inconsistencies. Can you solve this? 1. The Mahaparinirvãna Sütra, in its various recensions, records a discussion of the Buddha with someone called Putkasa (in Sanskrit) or Pukkusa (in Pãli). The Buddha here boasts that once, in a violent thunderstorm when lightning killed two farmers and four oxen nearby him, he did not notice it. It is known that abilities of this kind were sought after by certain non-Buddhists. Another Buddhist Sutra (the Indriyabhãvana Sutta of the Pãli canon and its parallel in Chinese translation), on the other hand, ridicules such 'cultivation of the senses' which leads to their non-functioning; the Buddha is here reported to say that if this is cultivation of the senses, the blind and deaf would be cultivators of the senses. The passages here mentioned may not logically contradict each other, yet they come about as close to that as one could hope for in this type of texts: on one occasion the Buddha disapproves of the practice that aims at the complete suppression of all sense-activities, on another he boasts about his attainments in this direction. This situation calls for a solution. One solution would be to think that the Buddha changed his mind about this practice. A more plausible explanation is that a practice that was respected among non-Buddhists came to be ascribed to the Buddha, either before or after his death. This latter explanation implies that the practice concerned is not authentically Buddhist. 5533 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request for Books dear eric, Why you didn't check the catalog first.We do not have com tran on patthana(text unfinished)dhatukatha,puggalapannati.yamaka com (text untranslated). i am sorry i cannot help because i cannot even donate some money for ordering cambodia tipitaka -----Original Message----- From: Erik Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:09:00 -0000 Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request for Books > > Hello kind dsg denizens, > > To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English > translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries (but > especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, > Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase them > myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd give anyone > who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to give the > gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home. > > The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in my > bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now becoming dog- > eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of Dharma > will not be collecting dust. > > Erik > 5534 From: Erik Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: Request for Books --- "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > dear eric, > Why you didn't check the catalog first.We do not have com tran on patthana(text unfinished)dhatukatha,puggalapannati.yamaka com (text untranslated). > i am sorry i cannot help because i cannot even donate some money for ordering cambodia tipitaka Once again, Ong, I appreciate your kind assistance and encouragement. You are a true friend in the Dhamma. 5535 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1 Dear Wynn, First, unless you believe that the Buddha was not enlightened, then do you believe that it was possible for him to 'boast' in the light of the definition below? Main Entry: boast Date: 14th century intransitive senses 1 : to puff oneself up in speech : speak vaingloriously 2 archaic : GLORY, EXULT transitive senses 1 : to speak of or assert with excessive pride As I understand it, it was not possible that pride could have arisen in the Buddha as the conditions allowing its arising had been destroyed. Main Entry: ridˇiˇcule Pronunciation: 'ri-d&-"kyü(&)l Function: noun Etymology: French or Latin; French, from Latin ridiculum jest Date: 1690 : the act of exposing to laughter : DERISION, MOCKERY To infer in the Buddha the arising of a motivation to expose anything to laughter is speculative, I think, and maybe a little reckless. In the Mahaparinibbna sutta, the Buddha describes his deep absorption to inspire confidence in Pukkusa according to Pukkusa's abilities. "'I was here, brother.' 'Yet, Lord, did you not see it?' 'I did not see it, brother.' 'But the noise, Lord, you surely heard?' 'I did not hear it, brother.' Then that man asked me: 'Then, Lord, perhaps you slept?' 'No, brother, I was not sleeping.' 'Then, Lord, you were conscious?' 'I was, brother.' Then that man said: 'Then, Lord, while conscious and awake, in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, you neither saw it nor heard the noise?' And I answered him, saying: 'I did not, brother.' 42. "And to that man, Pukkusa, came the thought: 'Marvellous it is, most wonderful indeed it is, the state of calmness wherein abide those who have gone forth from the world!' And there arose in him great faith in me, and he respectfully saluted me, and keeping his right side towards me, he went his way." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html In the Indriya-Bhavana sutta he uses blindness and deafness to illustrate the flaw in Parasiri's teaching, i.e. the uselessness of absorption without insight, and to inspire lack of confidence in that teaching in Uttara (also according to his abilities). He then continues to explain to Ananda the correct cultivation of the indriyas (controlling principals; faculties--not 'senses' in this case) in the discipline of a noble one, for a person in training, then in a noble one with developed faculties: As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Uttara, does the brahman Parasiri teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "Yes, master Gotama, he does." "And how does he teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties." "That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear." ...When this was said, the young brahman Uttara sat silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. The Blessed One -- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words -- said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one is something else entirely." "...Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, for the Blessed One to teach the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or having opened them, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to forms cognizable by the eye. "Furthermore, when hearing...smelling...tasting...touching...cognizing [etc.]" 5536 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1 ...so the inconsistency lies not in the Buddha's teaching, but in degrees of ability of his audience to understand. mike 5537 From: wynn Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1 Hi M. Nease, The passage was quoted from that particular book I mentioned. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for your reply. 5538 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:57pm Subject: Re: Request for Books Hi Erik, I think you'll have trouble locating an English translation of Yamaka and Patthana. Ven. Narada translated the first two volumes of Patthana, but no one has taken up the next three yet. I don't think there is a published Yamaka in English at all. I know of two English Dhammasangani's--the PTS Rhys Davids 1902 translation (not too good), and a new one out of Burma that is in very limited circulation and hard to find, but it is a better translation than Rhys Davids'. Check with Desmond Chiong for availability (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114056066213193116227102046026176090006098204051043041114242049205015143149). I find libraries very useful. The Atthasalini (commentary on Dhammasangani) is available under the two volume title "The Expositor." Vibhanga commentary is available in two volumes "Dispeller of Delusion." I don't know of any translations for commentaries on the rest of Abhidhamma pitaka, but Ven. Narada has a "guide" to the Patthana that I haven't looked at. Usually, though, his writing is good, so I'd guess that his "guide" is good too. Dan > To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English > translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries (but > especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, > Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase them > myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd give anyone > who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to give the > gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home. > > The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in my > bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now becoming dog- > eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of Dharma > will not be collecting dust. > > Erik 5539 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1 Dear Wynn, No apologies necessary. mike --- wynn wrote: > Hi M. Nease, > > The passage was quoted from that particular book I > mentioned. > Sorry for the misunderstanding. > > Thanks for your reply. > 5540 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Dan, --- Dan wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > Awareness of conventional jhana is not possible while the > jhana > > exists. For those who have mastery of jhana, if they also > have > > the understanding and accumulations for vipassana, there may > > > arise awareness immediately after the processes where jhana > is > > completed. This happens so quickly - considering that in a > flash > > of lightning already billions of mind processes have fallen > > away. We still talk about awareness of the present moment. > > Yes, we can talk of it that way, but it really isn't that way. > Does > Buddha talk about this reflection and review of past states of > > consciousness as "awareness of the present moment"? Or does he > talk > about it as understanding the conditioned and > unsatisfactoriness of > jhana AFTER emerging from jhana. I just don't see why we > should talk > about something past as something present. __________ Dear dan, In my first post I wrote "there are different types of meditation. In the Udana P75 trans. Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an object and on account of meditating on a characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises at the present moment ____ This was a little grammatically careless as it does look like I was referring to both types of meditation here. When I said "studying any object that arises in the present moment" I should have made it clear that I was referring only to the second type (lakkhana). My reply to you totally confused things by adding in the present moment when I should have left it out. It is good you brought this up. How would you describe "reflection and review"? > _____________ > > What are the objects that are possible? > > Vissudhimagga gives 40 suggestions. Is that all that are > possible? I > would think not. Does Vism. or anyone else say these are the > ONLY 40? _________ I think it is usually thought that there are only 40. They are quite wide in scope - such as Dhammanusati, which can encompase any consideration of the Dhamma done with wise attention. There are cases in the suttanta though that are hard to fit within the forty - such as when the Buddha created a beautiful flower (I think) for a monk who had been a goldsmith in 500 past lives and then let it fade in front of him. he attained. It could be that this was perception of anicca . I don't know. ____ > > > > As you are a practioner of samatha I was wondering what > object > > or objects you find beneficial. Do you need to be in a > special > > posture, or place? > > Now, this is interesting... I've never thought of myself as a > practitioner of samatha, and I don't recall ever saying that I > do > this or that samatha practice. I'm wondering how you would > know that > I am a samatha practitioner? Is it because I come to the > defense of > samatha? Is it because I argue that samatha can be beneficial > by > sharpening insight should conditions for insight arise? Just > curious... _________ You have said you like the mahasi and Goenka methods and recently you wrote " but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', three weeks', four weeks' retreat, " I was assuming this reflected an interpretation of personal experience. I also wondered if you found other ways of samatha useful . For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority - and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I wrote an earlier post where I said maranasati(mindfulness of death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . It is not an essential but it leans the mind in the direction of impermanence and gives urgency, it has been like my best friend over many years. Also all vipassana afficionados must develop Dhammanusati to some degree as this IS an essential prequisite. Khun Sujin has written a book about Metta- (a type of samatha and also a perfection). There are others that we can do too. What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects, according to the texts. This object does need special conditions - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; thus when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as bhavana. Yet those other samatha objects that I mentioned above can all be developed in daily life in any posture- (true though that more strigent conditions are needed if one wants to take them to the most advanced levels) People sometimes ask me politely "how are you?" but really I am fine for the past 10 years or so since realising what the objects for vipassana are. How can one feel bad - knowing that bad feeling is an object for vipassaan (of course I feel bad sometimes but these are times that I try to cherish as opportunities to understand that feeling or dosa or the conditions for dosa) In Buddhism "even the bad times feel good". Knowing that akusala- that desire or aversion etc are objects for awareness, that they are simply paramattha dhamma - if that understanding is firm - means that one can't be frightened by any of them. They appear more as they really are. Knowing that- as the texts say- dhammas are changing so fast, one knows that even if one is in great fear ,for example, that fear is simply a conditioned dhamma and can't last even for an instant. It is because of nicca vippalasa- the perversion of view, that thinks it(the hindrance ) lasts, and so one is distracted by it and believes it has to be got rid of before insight can arise. Yet it has already gone even before one knows it is there - and then one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance) does - clouds seeing these things. And one knows too that there are different processes such as seeing occuring that can't come with unpleasant feeling. These things can be seen for oneself - and so the teachings are being gradually tested and their truths seen. In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are also being understood - at different levels. And this leads gradually to a turning away from those conditions. Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of permanance and self and control. This is the first stage - that of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . Understanding them is another way. However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings- and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati, one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather looking for understanding). And strong akusala can arise even if understanding is firm- see the examples I gave recently about visakha and anathapindika. Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present: ""There can be just unawareness, no wrong practice. But if one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."endquote Nevertheless Khun Sujin does admit that satipatthana is not always going to occur. She often speaks about other ways of kusala. She writes in Deeds of merit "This is another level of kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila, morality. S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. W. : Before going to sleep we praise the excellent qualities of the Buddha by reciting the words: Itipi so bhagavaa: -araha~n, sammaasambuddho, vijjaa cara~nasampanno, sugato, lokaviduu, anuttaro purisadamma-saarathi, satthaa devamanussaana~n, buddho, bhagavaa tii. This means: That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with (clear) vision and (virtuous) conduct, sublime, the knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed. Is this a way of mental development which is calm? S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that for those who have the accumulations to understand these that this is the rarest teaching. When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). It took alot of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid confrontations and many other things (and still could never get things quite right.) I still like to get away to quiet places and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there is not the pressure of thinking I MUST be in such situations. It seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. robert 5541 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books Dear Erik, I'm tempted to send you one of my books, however stinginess has won out and I can't bear to part, at least for now. Dan, the Guide to Conditions by Narada is first rate a real boon to have. Note that this Narada is the Burmese one not the sri lankan Narada who translated the Abhidhammamatthasangaha robert --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Hi Erik, > I think you'll have trouble locating an English translation of > Yamaka > and Patthana. Ven. Narada translated the first two volumes of > Patthana, but no one has taken up the next three yet. I don't > think > there is a published Yamaka in English at all. I know of two > English > Dhammasangani's--the PTS Rhys Davids 1902 translation (not too > good), > and a new one out of Burma that is in very limited circulation > and > hard to find, but it is a better translation than Rhys > Davids'. Check > with Desmond Chiong for availability > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114056066213193116227102046026176090006098204051043041114242049205015143149). > > I find libraries very useful. The Atthasalini (commentary on > Dhammasangani) is available under the two volume title "The > Expositor." Vibhanga commentary is available in two volumes > "Dispeller > of Delusion." I don't know of any translations for > commentaries on the > rest of Abhidhamma pitaka, but Ven. Narada has a "guide" to > the > Patthana that I haven't looked at. Usually, though, his > writing is > good, so I'd guess that his "guide" is good too. > > Dan > > > To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English > > translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries > (but > > especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, > Dhatukatha, > > Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase > them > > myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd > give > anyone > > who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to > give the > > gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home. > > > > The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in > my > > bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now > becoming dog- > > eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of > Dharma > > will not be collecting dust. > > > > Erik 5542 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1 Very interesting post Mike. I wouldn't have known where to look for those suttas. thanks robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Wynn, > > . He discerns that 'This > agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable > thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen > in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently > co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, > i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable > thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable > thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as > a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open > them; or having opened them, might close them, that is > how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what > it refers to, the arisen agreeable > thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable > thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the > discipline of a noble one, this is called the > unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to > forms cognizable by the eye. > > "Furthermore, when > hearing...smelling...tasting...touching...cognizing [etc.]" > 5543 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Thanks, Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Yes, and he also uniquely knew the (mostly > highly-developed) accumulations > of his listeners, including the extent to which they > were capable of > seeing beyond the merely conventional. Sure--or incapable, in some cases. > > > Also, you said: "Though the driving out of > akusala > > > even by real > > > kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression > in > > > the sense > > > that it has no (or rather infinitesimally > > > little)effect on the > > > underlying habitual tendency." > > > So, in your understanding, what is it that roots > out > > > the habitual > > > tendency? > > > > It is paņņaa (wisdom; knowledge; insight). As I > > understand it, the latent tendencies can't really > be > > rooted out. They are eradicated in very small > > increments by very weak or shallow moments of > insight > > into the four foundations; or potentially in much > > larger increments by much stronger or profound > > moments. > > Yes, this is my understanding of the teaching also. > And thanks for the > sutta reference that follows. My pleasure Jon. mike 5544 From: Erik Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:37am Subject: Re: Request for Books --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Erik, > I'm tempted to send you one of my books, however stinginess has > won out and I can't bear to part, at least for now. > Dan, the Guide to Conditions by Narada is first rate a real boon > to have. Note that this Narada is the Burmese one not the sri > lankan Narada who translated the Abhidhammamatthasangaha Heh. Thanks Robert, Dan. So far my only high-level guide to the categories has been from the Abhidhammata-sangaha. Robert, I doubt it's macciriya that's behind all of this. I'd never part with any texts I'm actively using. For example, if you want my copy of the Visuddhimagga, you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :) I was hoping to find even pieces in translation from the Yamaka and Patthana, but it looks like I have no choice but to learn Pali (something I have no time for at present unfortunately as a #$@#! upsaka without any of the appropriate conditions for this sort of endeavour, grrr!). Dan: "Ven. Narada has a "guide" to the Patthana that I haven't looked at." Now I have something worth tracking down. This sort of text is exactly what I have been hoping to locate. 5545 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:38am Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] > I think it is usually thought that there are only 40. They are > quite wide in scope - such as Dhammanusati, which can encompase > any consideration of the Dhamma done with wise attention. If it's Dhamma with a capital 'D', then it's samatha; If its dhamma with a small 'd', then it's vipassana? Hmmm... It makes sense to me! > You have said you like the mahasi and Goenka methods I said that? If so, I really must be more careful! I wonder what I could have meant... > recently you wrote " but since [the hindrances] conceal reality from > consciousness, even > moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal > sitting can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. > Whether it is > samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two > weeks', > three weeks', four weeks' retreat, " > I was assuming this reflected an interpretation of personal > experience. I also wondered if you found other ways of samatha > useful. It is helpful to think of some differences between "samatha" and "vipassana" as technical terms, because it is critical to understand that eradicating defilements comes about through insight, not samadhi. However, I don't see that Buddha taught anything like: "Do this if you want to practice samatha; Do this other thing if you want to practice vipassana." E.g., the Anapanasati sutta is filled with references to cultivation of sati and observing reality as it is, while Satipatthana sutta is filled with references to fixing the mind on an object and calming the mind and so forth. Although other teachers of his day taught more of a samatha, Buddha taught more of a samatha-vipassana than a samatha and a vipassana. Moments of samatha and moments of vipassana are different, and moments of practicing samatha and moments of practicing vipassana are different; but by emphasizing a strong distinction between the two, especially if a preference for "vipassana" over samatha is expressed or implied or indicated or hinted at, we run the risk of sneering at mundane kusala or appearing to sneer at mundane kusala or fearing to sit quietly in a corner, eyes closed, concentrating on the sensation of the breath striking the above the upper lip because it often results in a very calm and peaceful state of mind---"Yikes! By cultivating samatha I run the risk of experiencing lots of pleasant sensations and generating lobha. And since samatha is distinct from vipassana, and vipassana is better, It's better not to sit because it's too risky." This may (or may not) be useful for helping a beginning meditator to understand the distinction between calm and insight. For a serious student, emphasizing the distinctions probably tends to be more helpful than harmful, because a serious student will eventually be able to overcome the fear of and sneer toward samatha. For a casual student, the fruits of concentration are oh-so-pleasant and can be somewhat reliably prompted by a teacher to his or her students as a gift of Dhamma, while a casual student may not so easily taste the fruits of insight. Now, as a casual student evolves into a serious student, the distinction can be made more clear: "Such and such is vipassana; such and such, samatha." But in my reading, Buddha taught samatha-vipassana as a pair. One of the big dangers for meditators is confusing the fruits of concentration with the fruits of insight. This is especially true at the beginning because the fruits of concentration begin to arise fairly soon and are quite pleasant and seemingly very profound, while the fruits of insight aren't as noticeable at the beginning. Goenka and Mahasi-style retreats for beginning meditators are filled with talk of Vipassana and observing dhammas as they arise and pass away, but in my personal experience most of the practice at the beginning is samatha and most of the fruit is from samadhi. From talking with others, I think this is experience is quite common. Gradually, though, the fruits of insight become more and more visible, more and more distinct, while the fruits of concentration become more and more clearly "fruits of concentration" rather than of insight. But it is not possible to label the practice "samatha" or "vipassana" because sometimes cultivation of samadhi predominates, sometimes the arising of sati predominates. But even at the very beginning, when a new student goes on a Goenka or Mahasi-style retreat and develops even a little bit of samadhi, it is helpful, especially when some of the Dhamma message about anicca, anatta, and dukka is heard, considered, and integrated in some small way into the formal practice and into everyday living. > For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority - > and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I > wrote an earlier post where I said maranasati(mindfulness of > death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . Exactly. Are you then a vipassana practitioner or a samatha practitioner? The question doesn't make sense unless you are strictly a samatha practitioner (e.g. a TM afficionado). > What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these > days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects, > according to the texts. This object does need special conditions > - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; I don't doubt that mastery of anapanasati is quite difficult and requires special conditions. However, even kindergarten level anapanasati can rapidly bring about fairly well-developed samadhi at preliminary concentration or access concentration levels (jhana is obviously more difficult...). This samatha can be a support for sharpening insight. Is this what you doubt? > when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps > seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as > bhavana. Yet those other samatha objects that I mentioned above > can all be developed in daily life in any posture- (true though > that more strigent conditions are needed if one wants to take > them to the most advanced levels) I find that when I am more disciplined about my formal practice (morning and evening daily), samatha-vipassana is more frequent and more strongly developed during the day. Thus, the formal practice tend to bear good fruit, even on those days when my lazy cittas must be forcefully overcome by conventional will-power to get my butt on the cushion in the morning. > People sometimes ask me politely "how are you?" but really I am > fine for the past 10 years or so since realising what the > objects for vipassana are. How can one feel bad - knowing that > bad feeling is an object for vipassaan "Knowing" is not enough. It requires awareness at that moment. When "feeling bad" arises, there is no awareness. I'm sorry, Robert, I just realized how long your post is! I read through the rest of it, and it's very interesting. I do want to continue the conversation, but it will have to wait until later! Dan > one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new > conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance) > does - clouds seeing these things. And one knows too that there > are different processes such as seeing occuring that can't come > with unpleasant feeling. These things can be seen for oneself - > and so the teachings are being gradually tested and their truths > seen. > In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for > some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the > hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are > also being understood - at different levels. And this leads > gradually to a turning away from those conditions. > Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of > permanance and self and control. This is the first stage - that > of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense > pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances > except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview > that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying > to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . > Understanding them is another way. > > However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop > up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of > the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings- > and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati, > one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may > not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in > this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather > looking for understanding). > > > > And strong akusala can arise even if understanding is firm- see > the examples I gave recently about visakha and anathapindika. > > Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the > present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for > kusala and that shifts one away from the present: > > ""There can be just unawareness, no wrong practice. But if one > thinks that one should rather have objects other than the > present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will > never study the object which appears now. And how can one know > their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? > So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is > more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire > can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's > desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no > understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One > has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha > which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is > lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one > does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from > developing right understanding of the present object."endquote > > > Nevertheless Khun Sujin does admit that satipatthana is not > always going to occur. She often speaks about other ways of > kusala. She writes in Deeds of merit "This is another level of > kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila, > morality. > > S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a > long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have > calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. > Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The > Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be > applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of > subduing defilements. > > W. : What are these four meditation subjects? > > S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the > development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of > repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. > > W. : Before going to sleep we praise the excellent qualities of > the Buddha by reciting the words: Itipi so bhagavaa: -araha~n, > sammaasambuddho, vijjaa cara~nasampanno, sugato, lokaviduu, > anuttaro purisadamma-saarathi, satthaa devamanussaana~n, buddho, > bhagavaa tii. This means: That Blessed One is such since he is > accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with (clear) vision and > (virtuous) conduct, sublime, the knower of the worlds, the > incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and > men, enlightened and blessed. Is this a way of mental > development which is calm? > > S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is > the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious > action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed > through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the > level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, > but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the > excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote > She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. > > I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places > most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that > for those who have the accumulations to understand these that > this is the rarest teaching. > > When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an > object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). It took alot > of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my > life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid > confrontations and many other things (and still could never get > things quite right.) I still like to get away to quiet places > and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there > is not the pressure of thinking I MUST be in such situations. It > seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. > robert > 5546 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can > be an object for insight I was elated (not > discouraged). It took a lot of stress away. I know what you mean. It is an oddly liberating reflection that there's no one responsible for these unwholesome tendencies and that they can't be changed overnight (as a rule). With the added bonus that they really are the 'fuel' for insight, it really is elating. Looking at it in this way also relieves a lot of the pressure to act in any particular way or to go around suppressing kilesa in order to look like a 'good Buddhist'. mike 5547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:28am Subject: samadhi Dear Dan, I am answering in this format, since my Email accounts got lost. You mentioned that samadhi is different from ekaggata cetasika, that Ven. Narada writes that ekaggata cetasika which is developed is called samadhi. He is right, but there is more to it. There is right concentration with kusala citta and wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, with akusala citta. I shall quote Santi Phantakeong who writes in his Lexicon (to Acharn Sujinšs Survey of paramattha dhammas) about momentary concentration, khanika samadhi: < This is samadhi which occurs each moment, and this refers to ekaggata cetasika accompanying the citta of people everywhere, and which normally arises. For example, when one normally sees, hears, smells, tastes, experiences an object through the bodysense or thinks, when one stands, walks, sits or lies down,khanika samadhi accompanies the citta. Ekaggata cetasika or the dhamma which is samadhi arises with each citta. However, if one develops the citta so that it acquires more power to attain calm and to become free from defilements, ekaggata cetasika which arises together with panna is called access concentration, upacara samadhi. Ekaggata cetasika which accompanies jhanacitta is called attainment concentration, appana samadhi.> Now I quote what Santi states about samatha: < Samatha (calm) bhavana (to make become develop). The development of calm, refers to the development of citta to the degree of being free from defilements. This is the development of right concentration, samma samadhi, and this is called arammanupanijjha jhana, focussing or concentration on the object, namely one of the forty meditation subjects of samatha. A person who develops samatha must have sati sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), that is, he must know the difference between the citta which is calm and the citta which is not calm. Then he can develop more and more calm of citta. Samadhi can develop from khanika samadhi to access concentration and to attainment concentration which is jhanacitta, and then higher stages of jhana can be reached successively. A person who is not born with a rebirth-consciousness accompanied by pa~n~naa (thus not with three sobhana hetus) cannot develop calm to the degree of jhanacitta.> You write: samatha need not be associated with pa~n~naa which knows the characteristics of realities or with wise attention, yoniso manasikara. As to wise attention, this means: when in a process of cittas experiencing an object kusala cittas arise, there is wise attention to the object.This refers not merely to samatha. If akusala cittas arise there is unwise attention. The Buddha explained that jhana alone is not enough. His teaching is different from other teachers. One should not take jhana for self and one should know the true characteristics of realities. There should not only be arammanupanijjha jhana but also lakkhanupanijjha jhana, knowledge of the nature of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, also of jhanacitta. Even when satippatthana is not always expressively mentioned, it is always implied, because it is the specific teaching of the Buddha. His teaching is unique, not to be compared to what other teachers before him had also taught. When he spoke to the monks about developing jhana, he knew their accumulations, he knew whether they had cultivated jhana before and had acquired great skill. Those who had great skill in jhana could be mindful of the jhanacitta, or of the jhana factors, or of any other reality appearing after the jhanacitta had fallen away. But they must have attained the ŗmasteries˛ (vasiis) in jhana, such as entering jhana or emerging from it whenever they wished (Visuddhimagga (IV,131). Only then jhanacitta was so natural to them that it could be the object of satipatthana. Nina. 5548 From: Erik Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:40am Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Dear Robert, > Looking at it in this way also relieves a lot of the > pressure to act in any particular way or to go around > suppressing kilesa in order to look like a 'good > Buddhist'. And Mike, the fact is, anyone who's a "good Buddhist" wouldn't dare dream of hiding his or her faults. Or at least that's my interpretation of how to avoid musavada--posing as something we aren't. And I agree with Robert's notes on this, on not attempting to avoid painful situations. This is an area of growing specialty in my own practice, I think--learning to deal with intense, unavoidable akusala vipaka. There are few better ways to focus attention on overcoming afflictions than when you're stuck having to either face them directly and neutralize them with wisdom, or suffer horribly and perpetuate them trying to either resist them or run away from them. It has taken me a long time, a lot of trial-and-error (and mucho dukkha providing the fodder) to figure out this oh-so simple equation of non-avoidance. And this strategy has made all the difference bearing up under dukkha when it can't be dodged--and ALL of us, at some point or another, will meet dukkha we can't avoid to save our lives. If there's no way out, there no alternative to deal with pain than learning to tolerating it, by coming to understand its essential nature as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. I found the Sabbasava Sutta also outlines many of the techniques for dealing with the asavas in this way. As is said (Master Shantideva), "there is no evil equal to hatred, and no austerity equal to forbearance." Learning forbearance may test one's patience, but there also isn't any other way, at least not as I can see at present. So there's actually reason to rejoice when akusala vipaka ripens, because it provides the fodder to overcome our afflictions, which could not be overcome in any other way (though I will add at the moment I would not prefer any more such "blessings" as my cup runneth way over, and I'd prefer an opportunity to address the somanassa-sahagatam lobha-mula-cittas for a little while for the sake of a little variety :)). 5549 From: Paul Bail Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:04am Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Mike, Thank you for going into more detail. I understand your point now. Paul Bail > > Dear Mike, > > > > What you have written is an interesting response to > > an interesting > > thread. Could you elaborate and clarify what you > > mean in the > > following: > > > > "Personally I think it's very valuable, without > > discounting the > > conventional view (as this is the way the > > Buddhausually taught), to > > distinguish carefully between the conventional and > > the ultimate, most > > especially where self-view is concerned." > > The Buddha spoke in most of the discourses in > conventional terms, as if the monks and householders > and so on whom he was addressing were 'selves' with > the power to think, speak and act. Ultimately he was > uniquely aware that this was not the case. So it > seems clear (to me) that his conventional (personal) > speech was meant to condition the arising of the > various (impersonal) wholesome states leading to > insight, understanding and liberation. > 5550 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:42am Subject: In my opinion Dear all contributors and lurkers, Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism... and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something came into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert back to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse than avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on my part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many reasons that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the damage... Please give opinion Sarah, I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me off list.. Rgds, Loke CL 5551 From: wynn Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:40am Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies5 Hi, How about this? Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: (he listed 5 contradictions) 5. The Buddhist texts are not of one mind concerning the time when liberation is reached. A great number of passages emphatically states that liberation is reached in this life, i.e., well before death. This is hardly surprising, for the Buddha himself is agreed to have passed many years teaching after his moment of liberation. Yet other passages speak about liberation as taking place at death. As in all the preceding cases, there is here a contradiction in the texts. Various solutions are conceivable, such as "the Buddha didn't know", "he expressed himself variously", "he changed his mind", "some are liberated at death, others in life", etc. Indeed, anyone with some imagination can add to this list of possibilities almost indefinitely. However, we know that among many non-Buddhists liberation took place at death, and that many Buddhist texts emphatically hold the opposite opinion. It is no doubt superfluous to add that an intrusion of foreign ideas seems to me most plausible here, too 5552 From: Howard Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5 Hi, Wynn - In a message dated 6/11/01 11:53:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Wynn writes: > Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: > (he listed 5 contradictions) > > > 5. The Buddhist texts are not of one mind concerning the time when > liberation is reached. A great number of passages emphatically states that > liberation is reached in this life, i.e., well before death. This is hardly > surprising, for the Buddha himself is agreed to have passed many years > teaching after his moment of liberation. Yet other passages speak about > liberation as taking place at death. As in all the preceding cases, there is > here a contradiction in the texts. Various solutions are conceivable, such > as "the Buddha didn't know", "he expressed himself variously", "he changed > his mind", "some are liberated at death, others in life", etc. Indeed, > anyone with some imagination can add to this list of possibilities almost > indefinitely. However, we know that among many non-Buddhists liberation took > place at death, and that many Buddhist texts emphatically hold the opposite > opinion. It is no doubt superfluous to add that an intrusion of foreign > ideas seems to me most plausible here, too > > ============================ Frankly, I'm starting to consider this Bronkhorst to be slightly idiotic. It sems to me that he felt he needed to publish *something*; so he tried the "contradictory Buddha scenario" in hopes that it would sell! Clearly in the suttas there are cases of people becoming liberated before death and cases of other people becoming liberated at death. So what? Different people, different occurrences! This strikes me as a major non-issue! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5553 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion Dear C.L., --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Dear all contributors and lurkers, > > Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism... > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something came > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert back > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse than > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on my > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many reasons > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the > damage... Please give opinion > > Sarah, > > I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me > off list.. > In my opinion, your concern is unnecessary. All your questions and comments are very appropriate and I don't think you need to worry at all! The reason we post on a discussion forum is so that everyone can enjoy and benefit from the questions and comments. Sarah 5554 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 5:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding > the > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism > and revert back > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka > in worse than > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will > arise on my > part... Tell me what do you think ? ___________ dear CL, If you convert me to Christianity you deserve Avici hell (don't worry so much, no worse hell than that). Seriously, Buddhism is well able to hold its own in any discussion with memebers of other faiths; It becomes more convincing the more one learns. I think if we discuss in detail it is more likely that the conversion will go towards the Buddhist side. It is great that you are concerned about such matters and shows that you will be careful in what you write. robert 5555 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 6:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last week I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views that deny kamma and rebirth come under this. Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while christains have wrong view in that they believe in the saving grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works lead to heaven: thus mother theresa. It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how serious the view is. robert 5556 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:25pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion i agree ... however..if the resultants of me bringing up the discussion that someone were to revert back to wrong views practices.. don't that me reap what I have sowed.. causing wrong views to arise.... that's what I have been thinking... what do you think ? Rgds, Loke CL > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott [SMTP:Sarah ] > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion > > Dear C.L., > > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > > Dear > all contributors and lurkers, > > > > Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism... > > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something > came > > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the > > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert > back > > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse > than > > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on > my > > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many > reasons > > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the > > damage... Please give opinion > > > > Sarah, > > > > I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me > > off list.. > > > > In my opinion, your concern is unnecessary. All your questions and > comments > are very appropriate and I don't think you need to worry at all! The > reason we > post on a discussion forum is so that everyone can enjoy and benefit from > the > questions and comments. > > Sarah 5557 From: Herman Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:10pm Subject: Re: In my opinion Dear CL, I believe you need not worry. If it were possible to cause wrong view to arise then it would also be posible to cause right view to arise, in which case you would have done that a long time ago! Question: If that were really possible, would everyone be Buddhist? Answer: Is Buddha Buddhist? Metta Herman --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Dear all contributors and lurkers, > > Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism... > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something came > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert back > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse than > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on my > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many reasons > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the > damage... Please give opinion > > Sarah, > > I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me > off list.. > > Rgds, > > Loke CL 5558 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:24pm Subject: Mindfulness of Breathing Dear Group, Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context? "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will pass consciously,not unconsciously". Someone on another list had quoted it. Sukin. 5559 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5 Dear Wynn, I agree with Howard--the author seems to be trying to stir up controversy and to fabricate inconsistencies where there are none (my apologies if this seems an uncharitable construction). If this is true then profit of some kind seems a likely motive for him. May I ask, what is your motive in pursuing these questions? Do you really find them compelling? Just curious... mike --- Howard wrote: > ============================ > Frankly, I'm starting to consider this > Bronkhorst to be slightly > idiotic. It sems to me that he felt he needed to > publish *something*; so he > tried the "contradictory Buddha scenario" in hopes > that it would sell! > Clearly in the suttas there are cases of > people becoming liberated > before death and cases of other people becoming > liberated at death. So what? > Different people, different occurrences! This > strikes me as a major non-issue! > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > 5560 From: Herman Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:22pm Subject: Re: Contradictions/Inconsistencies5 Dear Wynn, I have no doubt at all that the Pali canon is littered with the sort of issues that Mr Bronkhorst raises. I no longer feel the urge to make everything ever written about or attributed to the Buddha internally consistent and contradiction free. What is it but clinging, this insistence on an external truth that is unambigious, uninterpreted, unchanging. This craving for a bedrock is the placenta for the self. Keep posting those contradictions if you wish, they are giving me a wonderful opportunity to stand on my soap box :-) Metta Herman --- wynn wrote: > Hi, > > How about this? > > Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: > (he listed 5 contradictions) > > > 5. The Buddhist texts are not of one mind concerning the time when > liberation is reached. A great number of passages emphatically states that > liberation is reached in this life, i.e., well before death. This is hardly > surprising, for the Buddha himself is agreed to have passed many years > teaching after his moment of liberation. Yet other passages speak about > liberation as taking place at death. As in all the preceding cases, there is > here a contradiction in the texts. Various solutions are conceivable, such > as "the Buddha didn't know", "he expressed himself variously", "he changed > his mind", "some are liberated at death, others in life", etc. Indeed, > anyone with some imagination can add to this list of possibilities almost > indefinitely. However, we know that among many non-Buddhists liberation took > place at death, and that many Buddhist texts emphatically hold the opposite > opinion. It is no doubt superfluous to add that an intrusion of foreign > ideas seems to me most plausible here, too 5561 From: wynn Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:28pm Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies2 Hi, How about this? Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: (he listed 5 contradictions) 2. A Sütra of the Majjhima Nikãya (the Cüladukkhakkhandha Sutta) as well as its parallels in Chinese translation describe and criticize the Jainas as practising 'annihilation of former actions by asceticism' and 'non­performing of new actions'. This can be accepted as an accurate description of the practices of the Jainas. But several other Sütras of the Buddhist caņon put almost the same words in the mouth of the Buddha, who here approves of these practices (see note 8 to chapter 2, below). Did the Buddha first hold one opinion, then to change his mind ? Or did he not know how to describe his experiences ? Obviously it is far more plausible that, again, practices that were widely accepted outside the Buddhist fold, but not inside it, found their way in. The argument here summarized is again presented, in a but slightly different form, by no one else than Ruegg, apparently without realizing it, in the very same book in which he dismisses my arguments. This situation is extraordinary enough to warrant quoting the passage concerned at length (Ruegg, 1989: 142-143): Now, in some old Buddhist canonical texts also there are in fact found certain references to the idea that liberation from ill (duhkha) results from, and consists in, the non-production of any future karman at all and from the ending, often through austerities (tapas), of any existing bad karman. This idea is there usually ascribed to the Nigantha Nätaputta (Nirgrantha Jnãtrputra), in other words to Mahävira and the Jainas. We also read that immobility of body and renunciation of speech bring Ease (sukha). Moreover, in a couple of Buddhist canonical texts the idea that no new karman at all should be generated, and that any existing karman should be ended, has even been connected with the Buddha himself in a sermon he once addressed to a Nirgrantha and in another one he addressed to Vappa, a disciple of the Nirgranthas. The connection of such a teaching with the Buddha himself seems nevertheless to be rare. When it does occur, it is evidently to be explained by the fact that his auditor was a Nirgrantha and that the teaching was thus intended as an introductory salvific device, a circumstance that would lend support to Kamalasila's statement denying that such relinquishement of all activity was the Buddha's own teaching. In the majority of other places where it has been mentioned in the PäIi canon, this doctrine has in fact been severely criticized. It is patently inconsistent with such basic principles of Buddhist doctrine as the four correct efforts (sammappadhana / samyakprahãna).. It is not a little surprising to see how Ruegg, who rejects my arguments, arrives here at my conclusions, using my arguments and basing himself on the inconsistencies whose very existence he had attributed to my ill-founded presuppositions. In the situation it is no doubt kindest to Professor Ruegg to assume that he dismissed my book without having read it. ====== Note 8 to chapter 2 8. These words are again ascribed to Niganha Nathaputta and his followers at AN I. 220-21; MN 11.214; cf. SAC p. 147c8f.; MACP. 442c2f. It is noteworthy that almost the same words are placed in the mouth of the Buddha at AN 1.221, 11.197-98 (cf. MAC p. 434b23; SAC p.147c27): so navan ca kammam na karoti, puranam kammam phussa phussa vyantikaroti; the effects of activities are now said to wear out with death (AN II. 198-99; MAC p. 434c5f.). At Ud 21, similarly, we are confronted with a monk "in a cross-legged position, with body erect, mindful and conscious, and bearing without a murmur, acute, piercing and terrible pains, the result of deeds done in the past" (pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya puranakammavipakajam dukkham tippam kharam katukam vedanam adhivasento sato sampajano avihaņņamano; tr. Strong, 1902: 27). At AN V.292, 294, 297, 298 (cf. MAC p. 437b26f.) the Buddha is made to declare "that of intentional deeds done and accumulated there can be no wiping out without experiencing the result thereof, and that too whenever arising, either in this same visible state or in some other state hereafter" (naham bhikkhave sancetanikanam kammanam katanam upacitanam appatisamviditva vyantibhavam vadami, tan ca kho ditthe va dhamme upapajjam va apare va pariyaye; tr. Woodward, 1936: 189, 191). 5562 From: wynn Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5 I am wondering whether his argument is right, meaning the Tipitaka have some contradictions/inconsistencies. ===== Anyway,...... The Buddha describe two types of nibbana: the Unbinding property with fuel remaining, and the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining. If one is still alive after attaining nibbana they have attained the first type. This is a widely know teaching of the Buddha, and again there is no contradiction here. The link answers this question clearly. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti2.html#44 ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5 > Dear Wynn, > > I agree with Howard--the author seems to be trying to > stir up controversy and to fabricate inconsistencies > where there are none (my apologies if this seems an > uncharitable construction). If this is true then > profit of some kind seems a likely motive for him. > May I ask, what is your motive in pursuing these > questions? Do you really find them compelling? Just > curious... > > mike > 5563 From: wynn Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:36pm Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies4 Hi, How about this? 4. Four states of meditation are often enumerated in the Buddhist Sütras in varying contexts, but almost always together. They are: 1) the Stage of Infinity of Space; 2) the Stage of Infinity of Perception; 3) the Stage of Nothingness; 4) the Stage of neither Ideation nor Non-Ideation. The texts say little by way of explanation of these stages, but the names make clear that they together form a list of graded exercises aimed at the cessation of all ideations. This aim conforms very well with the aims we have to ascribe to the early Jainas and those of similar convictions. Moreover, the Jaina scriptures describe 'reflection on infinity' as one of the accompaniments of 'pure meditation'. These stages are denounced elsewhere in the Buddhist canon, be it indirectly: The Buddha is said to have had two teachers before his enlightenment: Arãda Kãlãma and Udraka the son of Rãma. From the former he learned the Stage of Nothingness, from the latter the Stage of neither Ideation nor Non-Ideation. However, the Buddha left these teachers, because he came to believe that these Stages would not lead him to his goal. Here the question seems justified: do these stages lead to the goal or do they not ? Various answers can be imagined, such as, "they do to some extent, but not all the way", "the Buddha had second thoughts about the usefulness of these stages", etc. But I insist that there is a problem here that demands an answer, and not just a manifestation of my "unexplicated or unexamined (and anything but self-evident) presuppositions about 'contradictions' in the tradition", as Ruegg would have it. Criticism of this kind, which refuses to study arguments, is not only counter-productive, it constitutes one of the greatest enemies of scholarship which, as Gombrich rightly points out, should at least try to progress by argument. Returning to the Stage of Nothingness and the Stage of neither Ideation nor NonIdeation, it will hardly be necessary to add that in my opinion they comply with the criterion of foreign intrusion into the Buddhist texts formulated above. The conclusion that the above four meditational Stages were not accepted in earliest Buddhism finds support in an altogether unexpected quarter; for a detailed presentation of the argument I must refer the reader to BSOAS 48, 1985, pp. 305 f.4 Among the early (Abhidharmic) matrkas, one seems to have been considered particularly important. It occurs a number of times in the early texts, but not always in exactly the same form; to an original enumeration of merely mental characteristics, meditational states came to be added. But initially the meditational states thus added did not contain the four Stages discussed above, even though these Stages, collectively known as 'the Formless States', are very prominent in the Buddhist scriptures as we have them. The most plausible explanation is again that the Formless States were not accepted during the earliest period of Buddhism. 5564 From: wynn Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:35pm Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies3 Hi, How about this? Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: (he listed 5 contradictions) 3. The Vitakkasanthana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya and its parallels in Chinese translation recommend the praetising monk to 'restrain his thought with his mind, to coerce and torment it'. Exactly the same words are used elsewhere in the Pãli canon (in the Mahãsaccaka Sutta, Bodhirãjakumãra Sutta and Sangarava Sutta) in order to describe the futile attempts of the Buddha before his enlightenment to reach liberation after the manner of the Jainas. Once again it is hard to see a better explanation than that these Jaina practices had come to be accepted by at least some Buddhists. 5565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Howard > One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to deny > the > importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An > important > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination to > react > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, see > the > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting it > build > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the opposite. I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution. Could there be the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala? The function of awareness is to be aware of (=study) by direct experience the reality that appears at the present moment, so that the reality can be seen for what it is. Awareness is not a means by which we can 'catch' akusala inclinations at an early stage, since it cannot be directed to any particular object. If we have the expectation of some immediate or direct result in terms of the level of akusala experienced in our lives, this is probably no less an intervention of 'self' than is the idea that the akusala can be suppressed. Jon 5566 From: Dan Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: Contradictions/Inconsistencies4 Hi Wynn, The four states of meditation mentioned are called the immaterial jhana. They result from highly refined concentration. Buddha taught that these exalted forms of concentration are not necessary for enlightenment nor do they lead to enlightenment. They are mentioned with praise in the sutras because they are wholesome, exalted states of consciousness. Mistaking them for the final goal or even as directly contributing to progress on the path would be to mistake what is path with what is non-path. Enlightenment is via insight, not concentration. Dan > 4. Four states of meditation are often enumerated in the Buddhist Sütras in > varying contexts, but almost always together. They are: 1) the Stage of > Infinity of Space; 2) the Stage of Infinity of Perception; 3) the Stage of > Nothingness; 4) the Stage of neither Ideation nor Non-Ideation. The texts > say little by way of explanation of these stages, but the names make clear > that they together form a list of graded exercises aimed at the cessation of > all ideations. This aim conforms very well with the aims we have to ascribe > to the early Jainas and those of similar convictions. Moreover, the Jaina > scriptures describe 'reflection on infinity' as one of the accompaniments of > 'pure meditation'. These stages are denounced elsewhere in the Buddhist > canon, be it indirectly: The Buddha is said to have had two teachers before > his enlightenment: Arãda Kãlãma and Udraka the son of Rãma. From the former > he learned the Stage of Nothingness, from the latter the Stage of neither > Ideation nor Non-Ideation. However, the Buddha left these teachers, because > he came to believe that these Stages would not lead him to his goal. > > Here the question seems justified: do these stages lead to the goal or do > they not ? Various answers can be imagined, such as, "they do to some > extent, but not all the way", "the Buddha had second thoughts about the > usefulness of these stages", etc. But I insist that there is a problem here > that demands an answer, and not just a manifestation of my "unexplicated or > unexamined (and anything but self-evident) presuppositions about > 'contradictions' in the tradition", as Ruegg would have it. Criticism of > this kind, which refuses to study arguments, is not only counter- productive, > it constitutes one of the greatest enemies of scholarship which, as Gombrich > rightly points out, should at least try to progress by argument. Returning > to the Stage of Nothingness and the Stage of neither Ideation nor > NonIdeation, it will hardly be necessary to add that in my opinion they > comply with the criterion of foreign intrusion into the Buddhist texts > formulated above. > The conclusion that the above four meditational Stages were not accepted in > earliest Buddhism finds support in an altogether unexpected quarter; for a > detailed presentation of the argument I must refer the reader to BSOAS 48, > 1985, pp. 305 f.4 Among the early (Abhidharmic) matrkas, one seems to have > been considered particularly important. It occurs a number of times in the > early texts, but not always in exactly the same form; to an original > enumeration of merely mental characteristics, meditational states came to be > added. But initially the meditational states thus added did not contain the > four Stages discussed above, even though these Stages, collectively known as > 'the Formless States', are very prominent in the Buddhist scriptures as we > have them. The most plausible explanation is again that the Formless States > were not accepted during the earliest period of Buddhism. 5567 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Erik Thanks for your comments. I'm not able to reply to all the points you make, but would like to pick up one or two. --- Erik wrote: > Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does > samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry > over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The hindrances > may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & > jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue > during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions because > of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains > more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot more > than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because > kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that one > is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise. You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha and the arising of moments of insight. If I understand correctly, that connection is supported by the following reasoning: - the hindrances 'weaken' insight - the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of samatha - therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, (and not otherwise,??) insight can arise. While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 propositions, the 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however is not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read. I realise this is a matter of interpretation, but I believe the reasoning given confuses the 2 kinds of bhavana. The fact that we still have the anusaya surely does not preclude the arising of awareness of a present reality? > One of the things I am sensing in this dialogue is resistance to the > practice of shamatha. I am curious as to why there seems to be this > resistance to a practice heavily encuoraged by the Buddha. The > question I have is, does anyone really believe that cultivating > samatha isn't important or necessary? Even those stalking the elusive > khanika-samadhi won't have the conditions to experience absorption > with hindrances present. I guess I am trying to understand what, > specifically, is the objection to samatha as a necessary component of > the path? Again, I think of the Yugganaddah, the conjoined pair of > samatha & vipassana. Why are these a "conjoined" pair if not because > they are mutuality conditions for the arising of insight? Speaking for myself, there is no resistance whatsoever to the development of samatha. But my own views as to what that development is, and the role that samatha plays, may differ markedly from your own, Erik. I do perhaps disagree with many of the claims that are made regarding samatha, but am happy to discuss the subject any time. Your mention of the Yugganaddah Sutta reminds me that I have not yet responded to an earlier post of yours where you mention this and other suttas. I mean to do so soon. But just to make a general comment, the Buddha's audience was often monks who had developed or were developing high levels of samatha, so suttas directed to those monks will naturally deal with the development of insight in that context. Jon 5568 From: Dan Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:41pm Subject: Re: Contradictions/Inconsistencies3 Some of the meditation techniques of the jains are just fine, but to think they lead to liberation is mistaken. Dan > 3. The Vitakkasanthana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya and its parallels in > Chinese translation recommend the praetising monk to 'restrain his thought > with his mind, to coerce and torment it'. Exactly the same words are used > elsewhere in the Pãli canon (in the Mahãsaccaka Sutta, Bodhirãjakumãra Sutta > and Sangarava Sutta) in order to describe the futile attempts of the Buddha > before his enlightenment to reach liberation after the manner of the Jainas. > Once again it is hard to see a better explanation than that these Jaina > practices had come to be accepted by at least some Buddhists. 5569 From: Dan Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:53pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Jon Erik: > > Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does > > samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry > > over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The hindrances > > may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & > > jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue > > during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions because > > of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains > > more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot more > > than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because > > kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that one > > is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise. Jon: > You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha and the > arising of moments of insight. If I understand correctly, that connection > is supported by the following reasoning: > - the hindrances 'weaken' insight > - the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of > samatha > - therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, (and > not otherwise,??) insight can arise. > > While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 propositions, the > 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however is > not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read. I don't think this is what Erik is saying at all. Insight does not arise BY samatha and suppressing the hindrances. However, samatha and suppressing the hindrances can condition a STRENTGTHENING of insight by allowing a clearer view to realities. To emphasize the first point: Even when samatha lifts a fog, sati and vipassana might still keep their eyes closed. When the fog is lifted, the landscape can be viewed with wisdom or not. Jon: > Speaking for myself, there is no resistance whatsoever to the development > of samatha. But my own views as to what that development is, and the role > that samatha plays, may differ markedly from your own, Erik. I do perhaps > disagree with many of the claims that are made regarding samatha, but am > happy to discuss the subject any time. You are right to disagree with many claims made about samatha, but are your assumptions about what Erik is saying and what I am saying are just what you think we are saying? Dan 5570 From: Num Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Hi K.Sukin, I tried a search on http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm. It's in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai Tipitaka. Kom gave me this link. I found it's easier to search on this site than on my CD rom. I haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my cdrom yet. I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta pitaka, majhima-nikaya, vol.13/45. (146), anapanasati-bhavana, maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before chula-malungayabutta sutta. Regards, Num 5571 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Thanks, Num, Sukin, here's an English translation (with Pali at the same site): "Rahula, when mindfulness of in breaths and out breaths are developed and made much in this manner, even the last breath leaves with your knowledge." http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha-rahulovada-e1.htm --- Num wrote: > Hi K.Sukin, > > I tried a search on > http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm. > It's > in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai > Tipitaka. Kom gave me this > link. I found it's easier to search on this site > than on my CD rom. I > haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my > cdrom yet. > > I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta > pitaka, majhima-nikaya, > vol.13/45. (146), anapanasati-bhavana, > maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before > chula-malungayabutta sutta. > > Regards, > > Num 5572 From: Howard Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/12/01 9:44:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard > > > One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to deny > > the > > importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An > > important > > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination to > > react > > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, see > > the > > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting it > > build > > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the opposite. > > I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution. Could there be > the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala? > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't follow you, Jon. There's no subtle idea involved here. To be watchful, to be on the lookout for the commencing of reacting to vedana, requires a constant vigilant exercise of mindfulness. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The function of awareness is to be aware of (=study) by direct experience > the reality that appears at the present moment, so that the reality can be > seen for what it is. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Remembering to stay present, so that clear comprehension can come into play. (I assume that when you write 'awareness', that is your translation for 'sati'.) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Awareness is not a means by which we can 'catch' akusala inclinations at an early stage, since it cannot be directed to any particular object. If we have the expectation of some immediate or direct result in terms of the level of akusala experienced in our lives, this is probably no less an intervention of 'self' than is the idea that the akusala can be suppressed. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry. I don't get you here at all. I'm talking about staying mindful and observing with clear comprehension. The more microscopically and clearly we can see what actually arises, the more opportunity we have for exercising right effort. When we are not mindful, then reactions are automatic and inevitable. There is no question of expectations here or of instant fixes. What is involved here is the development of a habituated practice of stopping and looking as an alternative to going through life asleep. By stopping and seeing what really is happening, there is the opportunity for both the exercise of right effort (and also for the arising of wisdom). We have one primary choice: to be awake or to be asleep. To emphasize my main point, let me give here an excerpt abtained from the Access to Insight site: Abandoning the wrong factors of the path > "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: > This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve > & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness... > "One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech > : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong > action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right > mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & > remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness..." > >> -- MN 117 > -------------------------------------------------------- Jon =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5573 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 7:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Jon and Erik, Just an aside (I think): --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha and the arising of moments of insight. If I understand correctly, that connection is supported by the following reasoning: - the hindrances 'weaken' insight - the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of samatha - therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, (and not otherwise,??) insight can arise. While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 propositions, the 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however is not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read. I realise this is a matter of interpretation, but I believe the reasoning given confuses the 2 kinds of bhavana. The fact that we still have the anusaya surely does not preclude the arising of awareness of a present reality? --------------------------------------- I'm not arguing with either of you here, but Jon's last question made me wonder if I've misunderstood something. As I (thought I) understood it, the medium and coarse defilements (mental, verbal and physical), not the anusaya, are supressed by samatha...? Mental kamma isn't considered latent, is it? Thanks in advance, mike 5574 From: Dan Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 8:21am Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Jon: > I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution. Could there be > the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala? I'd argue non-subtly and even explicitly that awareness is a great means of dealing with akusala and that Abhidhamma concurs. For example, in the Sammappadhanavibhanga (Analysis of Right Striving, Vibh. 8): "The four right strivings--Herein a bhikkhu engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non- arising of evil bad states that have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have arisen;..." How to do so? Via the direct path for the purification of beings, viz. satipatthana, which is establishment of awareness. Dan 5575 From: Dan Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:17am Subject: Re: In my opinion > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how > serious the view is. I think about it just the opposite way! The concept of "grace of God" or "salvation by faith" is a crude version of anatta. This is sure to raise a lot of hackles, but try to understand my point before letting it condition too much dosa! Christian faith is all about putting the ego aside and letting actions be guided by the Holy Spirit. Any action -- even one that superficially looks very good -- that is guided by the personal will is at best non-effectual in salvation. Instead, Christian faith demands that the ego be put aside and faith in God be developed. If faith is strong enough, good works are done incessantly, cheerfully and without any nudging from the ego or the will or the atta. The view is not "anatta" per se but only that any activity governed by atta rather than God is necessarily akusala. What is "God"? Well, I'd say that it is a crutch that Christians use for understanding anatta. It can be reasonably effective in attenuating people's clinging to self, and as far as that goes it is helpful. Ultimately, though, liberation does require dropping that crutch. As for doing good works, I'm sure both Mother Theresa and Buddha would disagree that "good works" per se is the vehicle for salvation or enlightenment. Mother Theresa would say that faith is key: If faith is strong, the good works will naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from the will. Buddha would say that wisdom is key: If wisdom is strong, the good works will naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from any atta. Neither puts much stock in external good works. Both put much stock in purification of the mind. This is a very important point. Buddha did not have any prescription: "Do this and you will move toward enlightenment." He did not say: "Sit on a cushion and direct attention to the sensation of the breath on the area above the upper lip as that breath enters and leaves the nose. If you do so, you will be enlightened." Instead, he talked a lot about wisdom and gave lots of example of wise people doing this and lots of "good works", but it is the wisdom and not the work that is important. Bramajala sutta has a wonderful discussion of this point. Buddha talks about how superficial people praise him for his good works, but those who have a deeper understanding recognize that the good works flow from his wisdom rather than the other way around, and that it is his wisdom that is most deserving of praise. "The Bondage of the Will" is a wonderful book that Martin Luther wrote about the Christian conception that any activity directed by the will is not only ineffectual for attaining salvation, it is downright sinful because it demonstrates a lack of faith in God--- shades of "sakaya ditthi is akusala" and "liberation by insight, not by ritual meditation or chanting or reading". Dan 5576 From: Darren Goh Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:20am Subject: Re: In my opinion Loke, There's really nothing wrong about being "converted" back to Christian. If one thinks that's the spiritual path he/she would take to find happiness, then he/she should do that. If the conditions are there, then it'll happen. You were simply presenting a topic for discussion, we all have to make our own interpretation, and come to our own understanding. Ultimately, whether we are Christians or Buddhists, Dhamma still be true, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Hopefully even with a little understanding of Dhamma, a bodhi seed would be planted and florish eventually. Sincerely, Darren --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Dear all contributors and lurkers, > > Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism... > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something came > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert back > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse than > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on my > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many reasons > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the > damage... Please give opinion > > Sarah, > > I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me > off list.. > > Rgds, > > Loke CL 5577 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Hi K. Num, Thanks for your help. It is the the sutta I was looking for. Also thanks for the Thai Tipitaka link, eventhough I don't read good thai now, it might be useful in the future. Metta, Sukin. Num wrote: > Hi K.Sukin, > > I tried a search on http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm. It's > in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai Tipitaka. Kom gave me this > link. I found it's easier to search on this site than on my CD rom. I > haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my cdrom yet. > > I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta pitaka, majhima-nikaya, > vol.13/45. (146), anapanasati-bhavana, maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before > chula-malungayabutta sutta. > > Regards, > > Num > > > > 5578 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:29pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion actually Darren, I mean when converting I should mentioning specifically about practising wrong views and practises.. hences an akusala... vipaka of raising an issue that cause the reaction towards wrong views..... Loke > -----Original Message----- > From: Darren Goh > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:20 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion > > Loke, > > There's really nothing wrong about being "converted" back to > Christian. If one thinks that's the spiritual path he/she would take > to find happiness, then he/she should do that. If the conditions are > there, then it'll happen. You were simply presenting a topic for > discussion, we all have to make our own interpretation, and come to > our own understanding. Ultimately, whether we are Christians or > Buddhists, Dhamma still be true, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Hopefully > even with a little understanding of Dhamma, a bodhi seed would be > planted and florish eventually. > > Sincerely, > Darren > > > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > wrote: > > Dear all contributors and lurkers, > > > > Recently I have spoken about Christianity and > Buddhism... > > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, > something came > > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the > > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and > revert back > > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in > worse than > > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise > on my > > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many > reasons > > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise > the > > damage... Please give opinion > > > > Sarah, > > > > I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to > reply me > > off list.. > > > > Rgds, > > > > Loke CL > 5579 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Thankyou very much Mike, I did expect you to be the one if any to find it for me. Also very happy to hear you again after such a long gap, always enjoy reading your posts. Metta, Sukin "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks, Num, > > Sukin, here's an English translation (with Pali at the > same site): > > "Rahula, when mindfulness of in breaths and out > breaths are developed and made much in this manner, > even the last breath leaves with your knowledge." > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha-rahulovada-e1.htm > > --- Num wrote: > > > Hi K.Sukin, > > > > I tried a search on > > http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm. > > It's > > in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai > > Tipitaka. Kom gave me this > > link. I found it's easier to search on this site > > than on my CD rom. I > > haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my > > cdrom yet. > > > > I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta > > pitaka, majhima-nikaya, > > vol.13/45. (146), anapanasati-bhavana, > > maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before > > chula-malungayabutta sutta. > > > > Regards, > > > > Num > 5580 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:44pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion Herman.. you raised very interesting question.. Is Buddha a Buddhists ??? how should this question to be answered correctly and clearly... I am a bit confused also... thanks for your help... > -----Original Message----- > From: Herman [SMTP:Herman] > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:11 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion > > Dear CL, > > I believe you need not worry. If it were possible to cause wrong view > to arise then it would also be posible to cause right view to arise, > in which case you would have done that a long time ago! > > Question: If that were really possible, would everyone be Buddhist? > > Answer: Is Buddha Buddhist? > > > Metta > > > Herman > > > > > > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > wrote: > > Dear all contributors and lurkers, > > > > Recently I have spoken about Christianity and > Buddhism... > > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, > something came > > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the > > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and > revert back > > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in > worse than > > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise > on my > > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many > reasons > > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise > the > > damage... Please give opinion > > > > Sarah, > > > > I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to > reply me > > off list.. > > > > Rgds, > > > > Loke CL 5581 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Awareness of Hindrances Dan --- Dan wrote: > Dear Jon, > Your passage from MN 10 is wonderful, but could you explain how this > confirms the view that development of awareness of the reality of the > present moment is the same whether the reality of that moment is one > of the hindrances or not? I just don't see any comparisons being made > between awareness of hindrances and awareness of other dhammas, much > less how the development of awareness is "the same" regardless of > object. I see your point. My comments were somewhat cryptic (or pithy, as I would prefer to describe them!). My reading of the passage is that whether the reality of the present moment is a hindrance or is a reality other than a hindrance, the development of mindfulness/awareness is the same, namely mindfulness of, or understanding of, that present moment as it really is. Interestingly, the passage on the seven enlightenment factors is in exactly the same terms-- "Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the seven enlightenment factors. And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the seven enlightenment factors? Here, there being the mindfulness enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is the mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; or there being no mindfulness enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'…" [and similarly for the other 6 enlightenment factors]. Jon Original passage-- "Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances. And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances? Here, there being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual desire in me'; or there being no sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no sensual desire in me' … There being ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is ill-will in me'; or there being no ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no ill-will in me' … There being sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'; or there being no sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'…" 5582 From: Erik Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] --- Dan wrote: > Jon: > > You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha > and the > > arising of moments of insight. If I understand correctly, that > connection > > is supported by the following reasoning: > > - the hindrances 'weaken' insight > > - the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of > > samatha > > - therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, > (and > > not otherwise,??) insight can arise. > > > > While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 > propositions, the > > 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however > is > > not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read. > > I don't think this is what Erik is saying at all. Insight does not > arise BY samatha and suppressing the hindrances. However, samatha and > suppressing the hindrances can condition a STRENTGTHENING of insight > by allowing a clearer view to realities. To emphasize the first > point: Even when samatha lifts a fog, sati and vipassana might still > keep their eyes closed. When the fog is lifted, the landscape can be > viewed with wisdom or not. Right Dan. All I was getting at here is the following: If the hindrances are present, insight cannot arise. Is insight alone sufficient to suppress the hindrances? For some, perhaps. But I have to say from my own experience that I need samatha, that insight practice alone does not work for me, because my mind remains unworkable, unpliant without it. For me the difference between samatha and no samatha is like night & day. Others' mileage may of course vary, but this is my own observation, for whatever it's worth. 5583 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Howard Thanks for your comments and the references below. You mention towards the end of your post the opportunity for exercising right effort. As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to be developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at moments of true satipatthana. At such moments, and at such moments only, the path leading out of samsara is being developed. When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their particular 'path-factor' function. In the case of right effort, that function is the four-fold one so often encountered, and referred to in one of Dan's recent posts as the 4 right strivings-- "The four right strivings--Herein a bhikkhu engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad states that have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have arisen;..." The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional kind, because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though our aim may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather the effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana. This of course puts a whole different gloss on the development of the path, because it means that at moments of satipatthana all the necessary factors are being developed, without the need for them to be developed individually, as it were. Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards the senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises. Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 6/12/01 9:44:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jonothan Abbott writes: > > > > Howard > > > > > One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to > deny > > > the > > > importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An > > > important > > > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination > to > > > react > > > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, > see > > > the > > > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting > it > > > build > > > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the > opposite. > > > > I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution. Could > there be > > the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't follow you, Jon. There's no subtle idea involved here. To > be > watchful, to be on the lookout for the commencing of reacting to vedana, > > requires a constant vigilant exercise of mindfulness. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The function of awareness is to be aware of (=study) by direct > experience > > the reality that appears at the present moment, so that the reality > can be > > seen for what it is. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. Remembering to stay present, so that clear comprehension can > come > into play. (I assume that when you write 'awareness', that is your > translation for 'sati'.) > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Awareness is not a means by which we can 'catch' > akusala inclinations at an early stage, since it cannot be directed to > any > particular object. If we have the expectation of some immediate or > direct > result in terms of the level of akusala experienced in our lives, this > is > probably no less an intervention of 'self' than is the idea that the > akusala can be suppressed. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sorry. I don't get you here at all. I'm talking about staying > mindful > and observing with clear comprehension. The more microscopically and > clearly > we can see what actually arises, the more opportunity we have for > exercising > right effort. When we are not mindful, then reactions are automatic and > inevitable. There is no question of expectations here or of instant > fixes. > What is involved here is the development of a habituated practice of > stopping > and looking as an alternative to going through life asleep. By stopping > and > seeing what really is happening, there is the opportunity for both the > exercise of right effort (and also for the arising of wisdom). We have > one > primary choice: to be awake or to be asleep. To emphasize my main point, > let > me give here an excerpt abtained from the Access to Insight site: > Abandoning the wrong factors of the path > > > > "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html">right > view: > > This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong > resolve > > & to enter & remain in HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-sankappo.html">right > resolve: This is one's right mindfulness... > > "One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vaca.html">right > speech > > : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong > > action & to enter & remain in HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-kammanto.html">right > action: This is one's right > > mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter > & > > remain in HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ajivo.html">right > livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness..." > > >> -- HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html">MN > 117 > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jon > =========================== > With metta, > Howard 5584 From: Dan Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:32pm Subject: Re: Awareness of Hindrances > My reading of the passage is that whether the reality of the present > moment is a hindrance or is a reality other than a hindrance, the > development of mindfulness/awareness is the same, namely mindfulness of, > or understanding of, that present moment as it really is. Dogs and turtles are not the same even though they both breathe and have four legs. > Interestingly, the passage on the seven enlightenment factors is in > exactly the same terms-- > > "Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as > mind-objects in terms of the seven enlightenment factors. And how does a > bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the > seven enlightenment factors? Here, there being the mindfulness > enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is the > mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; or there being no mindfulness > enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no > mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'…" [and similarly for the other 6 > enlightenment factors]. > > Jon > > Original passage-- > "Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms > of the five hindrances. And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating > mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances? Here, there > being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is sensual > desire in me'; or there being no sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu > understands: 'There is no sensual desire in me' … > There being ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is ill- will in > me'; or there being no ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is > no ill-will in me' … > There being sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a > bhikkhu understands: 'There is sloth and torpor, restlessness and > remorse, doubt in me'; or there being no sloth and torpor, restlessness > and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands: 'There is no sloth and > torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'…" > 5585 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Mike Thanks for raising this question, and I don't think you've misunderstood anything. What you say about the manifestation of defilements, but not the latent tendencies, being suppressed by jhana is quite correct according to my understanding also. The problem perhaps lies in my choice of the term anusaya in the passage below to mean our accumulated tendency for kilesa in general including those that are classed as the hindrances (when they manifest - at other times they are latent). It would have been better if I had spelt out exactly what I meant. I hope I have understood your point correctly and that this has cleared it up - if not, please say. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Jon and Erik, > > Just an aside (I think): > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > You make a very direct connection between the practice > > of samatha and the arising of moments of insight. If > I understand correctly, that connection is supported > by the following reasoning: > - the hindrances 'weaken' insight > - the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the > development of > samatha > - therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the > > hindrances, (and not otherwise,??) insight can arise. > > While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first > > 2 propositions, the 3rd is one of those persuasively > 'logical' conclusions that however is > not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read. I > realise this is a matter of interpretation, but I > believe the reasoning given confuses the 2 kinds of > bhavana. The fact that we still have the anusaya > surely does not preclude the arising of awareness of a > present reality? > --------------------------------------- > I'm not arguing with either of you here, but Jon's > last question made me wonder if I've misunderstood > something. As I (thought I) understood it, the medium > and coarse defilements (mental, verbal and physical), > not the anusaya, are supressed by samatha...? Mental > kamma isn't considered latent, is it? > > Thanks in advance, > > mike > 5586 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:04am Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dear Jon, Again, we are not so far apart. You wrote: > As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to be > developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at moments of > true satipatthana. At such moments, and at such moments only, the path > leading out of samsara is being developed. > When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their > particular 'path-factor' function. The conventional, everyday notions of "trying hard", "arousing energy", "making wish", "strives for the non-arising of [akusala]" etc. is indeed closely linked to atta or sakaya ditthi. But understanding of right striving can only come about when the veil of ignorance about the nature of conventional, everyday striving is lifted. By just talking about the imperfections of conventional striving we run the risk of dismissing or rejecting those conventional notions before understanding has grown strong enough to replace the conventional notions with the right ones in practice and everyday living. The result could too easily be a Jack Kerouac, Timothy Leary, Beat, superficial understanding of the concept with a feeling of relief that there's no one responsible for the kusala and akusala. It would not be beneficial to replace the conventional understanding of "engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad states that have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have arisen;..." with its conventional counterpart "does not engender wish, cannot arouse right energy, does not exert the mind, should not strive for the non-arising of evil bad states..." This miccha ditthi would be more along the lines of "...no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world...", which is so often and so easily more serious than the sakaya ditthi of conventional understanding of "striving". This miccha ditthi breeds a sense of complacency and a weakening of a sense of responsibility (ahiri and anottapa) that are not conducive to development of insight ["Oh, it is such a relief to know there is no one responsible for kusala and akusala".] This reminds of an encounter with my first meditation teacher in Thailand. When I was an undergraduate college student, I found classes pretty easy and I always tried to do just well enough to get an A-, which really wasn't difficult most of the time. After graduating, I went immediately to graduate school in pure math. Although I went to a fancy school for my undergraduate degree and a second tier graduate school, the quality of work expected in graduate school was so much higher than that expected in undergraduate school that I had tremendous difficulty keeping up because I never learned how to work when I was an undergraduate. Near the end of the first year, I was struggling to pass one of my classes and getting quite stressed about it. I then reflected briefly (and wrongly!) on some "Buddhist" and "Taoist" notions of "striving is unwholesome; not- striving is wholesome". The answer was then oh-so-clear: Just skip the final! What a great sense of relief! I couldn't expect to pass the class, then, but the idea of caring about passing a class is just evidence of ego and clinging, so why should I care about the class?! Just forget about it instead! I was proud of this insight and told my monk teacher the story. He said [paraphrase]: "When are you going to learn to deal with difficult situations responsibly?" Oh my! How right he was! The idea is to remove the self from the striving, not to remove the striving, i.e. to make the striving "right striving" not by abandoning striving but by abandoning the wrongness of the striving. This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful use of language and why "path" means so much more than any single moment of consciousness and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to interpret the words in a conventional sense (good in the beginning), in a deeper philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in the deepest, liberating sense (good in the end). It is extraordinarily helpful to present these ideas in language that is so rich and has so much depth that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who are willing to listen, those who understand it all at just the conventional level and those who understand it at the deepest levels. This highlights one of our differences. You wrote: > The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional kind, > because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though our aim > may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather the > effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana. I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a master of language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful in his thinking that his statements can be interpreted on a number of different levels and they make sense on a number of different levels, depending on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd agree that the meaning of "effort" you are referring to is certainly a part of the teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich enough to make sense on a conventional level as well? If not, then why would he make such extensive use of conventional language without giving us an explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did not mean what they seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, intended solely for those who could understand the concepts at their deepest level? If so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it seems to me, but from my experience, any of my guesses about the depth of the teaching always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate to accept that the language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant to be taken on one level. Dan 5587 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Jon, That does clarify the point--thanks. mike --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I hope I have understood your point correctly and > that this has cleared it > up - if not, please say. 5588 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:07am Subject: Re: In my opinion [Rob] Dear Robert, You wrote: > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how > serious the view is. Isn't kamma more about the volition than the works? (AN iii, 415). Isn't it a path of purification rather than a prescriptive path of "do this good work" and "do that good work"? Dan 5589 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:15am Subject: testing Hi all, this is a very boring message I'm posting just to see if everything is working o.k. About 5 minutes ago I finished writing a message that took over an hour to write, posted it, and it hasn't showed up yet. I'm just checking to see if the server is working right. 5590 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Got it, Dan--thanks... mike --- Dan wrote: ["Oh, it is such a relief to know there is no one responsible for kusala and akusala". 5591 From: Howard Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Hi, Dan (and Jon) - Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/13/01 1:43:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dan writes in the second part of his post: > This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful use of language and > why "path" means so much more than any single moment of consciousness > and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to interpret the > words in a conventional sense (good in the beginning), in a deeper > philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in the deepest, > liberating sense (good in the end). It is extraordinarily helpful to > present these ideas in language that is so rich and has so much depth > that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who are willing to > listen, those who understand it all at just the conventional level > and those who understand it at the deepest levels. > > This highlights one of our differences. You wrote: > > The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional > kind, > > because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though > our aim > > may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather > the > > effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana. > > I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a master of > language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful in his thinking > that his statements can be interpreted on a number of different > levels and they make sense on a number of different levels, depending > on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd agree that the > meaning of "effort" you are referring to is certainly a part of the > teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich enough to make > sense on a conventional level as well? If not, then why would he make > such extensive use of conventional language without giving us an > explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did not mean what they > seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, intended solely for > those who could understand the concepts at their deepest level? If > so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it seems to me, but > from my experience, any of my guesses about the depth of the teaching > always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate to accept that the > language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant to be taken on one > level. > > Dan > =============================== I very much agree with you, Dan. The Buddha taught worldlings for the most part, some stream enterers, and far fewer higher attainers. Any people he taught had to commence their practice from where they were, not from the level of an arahant. The effort they had to put forward was, for the most part, conventional effort. Most of them came to practice with a well established sense of self and even a strong *belief* in self. But as they practiced, with the development of calm and insight, they came to glimpse the impersonality, insubstantiality, unsatisfactoriness, and impermanence of all the dhammas they observed, and slowly, the nature of their practice changed. We begin where we are. Our world is a world of convention for a long, long time. If it needed to be otherwise for practice to proceed, then there would never be arahants in the world. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5592 From: Howard Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Awareness of Hindrances Hi, Dan (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/13/01 1:52:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dan writes: > > My reading of the passage is that whether the reality of the present > > moment is a hindrance or is a reality other than a hindrance, the > > development of mindfulness/awareness is the same, namely > mindfulness of, > > or understanding of, that present moment as it really is. > > Dogs and turtles are not the same even though they both breathe and > have four legs. > > =============================== I'm missing your point, Dan. Here the dogs and turtles are hindrances and non-hindrances. They are the dhammas that are objects of ones attention. I agree that they do condition that attention, but only in the sense that attending to one thing is not attending to another. Clear comprehension of exactly what is being observed, however, is the same whenever it exists - it is just clear comprehension. The development of mindfulness of whatever is arising is precisely that: developing the presence of mind needed to clearly comprehend, with equanimity, whatever it is that arises at any given time, regardless of what that might be. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5593 From: Howard Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Hi, all - In a message dated 6/13/01 2:20:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > Hi, Dan (and Jon) - > > ============================== Apologies for the double salutation! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5594 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/13/01 5:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard > > Thanks for your comments and the references below. > > You mention towards the end of your post the opportunity for exercising > right effort. > > As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to be > developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at moments of > true satipatthana. At such moments, and at such moments only, the path > leading out of samsara is being developed. > > When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their > particular 'path-factor' function. In the case of right effort, that > function is the four-fold one so often encountered, and referred to in one > of Dan's recent posts as the 4 right strivings-- > > "The four right strivings--Herein a bhikkhu engenders wish, makes effort, > arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad > states that have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, > exerts the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have > arisen;..." > > The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional kind, > because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though our aim > may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather the > effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana. > > This of course puts a whole different gloss on the development of the > path, because it means that at moments of satipatthana all the necessary > factors are being developed, without the need for them to be developed > individually, as it were. Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards > the senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises. > > Jon > ============================= I understand what you are saying, but I believe that there are (at least) two senses of the (noble 8-fold) path, the higher being the supermundane path, and the lower being the mundane path. We start on the mundane path. We begin where we are, else there is no beginning, and hence no ending. The cultivation of all the factors of mindfulness starts on the mundane path. You write "Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards the senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises." But this arising of mindfulness is not a random occurrence - nothing comes from nothing, but results from practice, and that practice includes persistent mundane effort. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5595 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Thank you again, Howard. mn --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Dan (and Jon) - > > Hi, Dan - > > In a message dated 6/13/01 1:43:22 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > Dan writes in the second part > of his post: > > > > This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful > use of language and > > why "path" means so much more than any single > moment of consciousness > > and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to > interpret the > > words in a conventional sense (good in the > beginning), in a deeper > > philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in > the deepest, > > liberating sense (good in the end). It is > extraordinarily helpful to > > present these ideas in language that is so rich > and has so much depth > > that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who > are willing to > > listen, those who understand it all at just the > conventional level > > and those who understand it at the deepest levels. > > > > This highlights one of our differences. You wrote: > > > The effort being referred to here is not effort > of the conventional > > kind, > > > because that inevitably involves the idea of a > self (even though > > our aim > > > may be the development of the path as we > understand it) but rather > > the > > > effort that accompanies a moment of > satipatthana. > > > > I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a > master of > > language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful > in his thinking > > that his statements can be interpreted on a number > of different > > levels and they make sense on a number of > different levels, depending > > on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd > agree that the > > meaning of "effort" you are referring to is > certainly a part of the > > teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich > enough to make > > sense on a conventional level as well? If not, > then why would he make > > such extensive use of conventional language > without giving us an > > explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did > not mean what they > > seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, > intended solely for > > those who could understand the concepts at their > deepest level? If > > so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it > seems to me, but > > from my experience, any of my guesses about the > depth of the teaching > > always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate > to accept that the > > language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant > to be taken on one > > level. > > > > Dan > > > =============================== > I very much agree with you, Dan. The Buddha > taught worldlings for the > most part, some stream enterers, and far fewer > higher attainers. Any people > he taught had to commence their practice from where > they were, not from the > level of an arahant. The effort they had to put > forward was, for the most > part, conventional effort. Most of them came to > practice with a well > established sense of self and even a strong *belief* > in self. But as they > practiced, with the development of calm and insight, > they came to glimpse the > impersonality, insubstantiality, unsatisfactoriness, > and impermanence of all > the dhammas they observed, and slowly, the nature of > their practice changed. > We begin where we are. Our world is a world > of convention for a long, > long time. If it needed to be otherwise for practice > to proceed, then there > would never be arahants in the world. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > 5596 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Hi, Jon (and Mike, and all) - In a message dated 6/13/01 5:22:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > The cultivation of all the factors of mindfulness starts on the mundane > ========================== This was an error. I meant to write "factors of enlightenment". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5597 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Dear Sukin, It's good to see you on list! Any particular interest in this passage? --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Dear Group, > Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context? > > "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and > regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will > pass consciously,not unconsciously". You wrote to me off-list and I wrote a reply which got lost, so if you don't mind I'll add one or two short comments on list as I'm very rushed this week... ********************************************************************* Sarah wrote:> Everytime we meet you in Bkk we're so impressed by your keen interest and > ability to listen very carefully (which is unusual). Sukin wrote: 'Keen interest' maybe; but 'ability to listen very carefully', I don't know. I find that my mind is perpetually clouded, something like thick rain clouds across the sky. I feel like there is only moha, moha, moha everywhere,......" *************************************************************************** Join the club! I think that beginning to realise that there really is moha at every turn is a big step in the right direction! Usually we're just interested in the dosa because it's so unpleasant but what about all the lobha and moha that we're seldom interested in? I find it so encouraging that sati really can arise at any time and know any reality. So even when the mind seems so clouded there are realities to be known. They may not be the ones we'd choose if we could, but they are what are conditioned at that moment and are ripe for sati to be aware of. When we begin to realise that even when listening to dhamma, there are so many different moments of kusala and akusala and of course seeing, hearing and the other sense door processes in between, it shows there is a beginning of understanding of the Buddha's teachings. ******************************* Sukin said "and sometimes I feel like there is perpetual anger." ********************************* As I mentioned to Cybele, it may seem that we've had a day, a week or a month of unpleasantness and dosa. Of course we are most concerned about it because it is unpleasant. Probably at any given time, everyone on the list is experiencing some conventional difficulties- financial, health, family or whatever- but of course, really the problem is the moha and lack of understanding at any given time. **************************************************************************** Sukin said "I know that I am not taking into consideration, moments when there are more kusala cittas. But when I come across posts of different members on this and another list, by comparision I feel not only stupid, but also 'defiled'." *************************************************************************** The comparison is conceit, mana, is it not? It's so common and I'm sure many of us have similar thoughts from time to time, but it is just thinking about these useless stories! In reality, no self but yes, lots of akusala citttas! **************************************************************************** Sukin said "Therefore much of the time I don't feel that I have anything useful to add to the discussions, though I do interpret what I read and tell myself that I understand and that I am able to keep up with the group. At other times I doubt the level of understanding but do not know exactly where I'm at." **************************************************************************** I don't think we have to try to work this out! Moments of doubt and worrying are just that...they can also be known. At a moment of awareness (at any level) and understanding, there is no doubt or thinking in this way. So glad you're keeping up too! ********************************************************************************Sukin said " I think your understading and mine are widely different, I have a long way to go." ************************************************ We all have a long way to go..just one step at a time... In fact I was going to say to Paul and others on the topic of 'having one's kilesa on show as an example of Buddhism'....I don't try to defend the unwholesome speech/acts, but say 'yes, I'm just a beginner,,,' Look forward to hearing more! Very best wishes, Sarah p.s. thanks for letting me reply on list to yr comments here 5598 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead (boasting/dhana?) Dear Kom, I've been busy...my last week of teaching for the school year. We'll be going off to Europe at the end of next week. Hence, lots of delays to posts! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > This aspect of dhana is pretty interesting and delicate. I agree and also with all your points below. > > 1) I found myself sometimes wondering about the motives of persons > telling me about their good deeds. On the other hand, we know that > this doubt is most certainly the hearer's akusala, and that there > *must* be kusala for the giver at the moment of the actual dhana. So > speculating about other people's motive at the time of the telling is > somewhat moot as we can almost never be certain (unless the person > really does it excessively?). > > 2) I have listened to some tape made by T.A. Sujin talking about some > people who takes the dana up to a finer level: the person would > explain the details about the dana and sometimes actually showing the > other person the dana objects for the other to have the opportunity > to have even stronger (somannassa and piti) anumoddhana! yes and wise reflection on dana (any dana, one's own or the other's) can give rise to moments of samatha and to the development of samatha in daily life. > > 3) There are many suttas about people in the suttas "raising their > flag" just because of one good quality/achievement they have. We > know that mana can be the motive of such deed. > > 4) It is almost as effective to tell of others' kusalas giving the > opportunities for others to rejoice. I personally found the teller's > motive to be more often purer (not always!), and the hearer's > rejoicing to come easier. Of course, there is always the problem > with the attachment to the associations of certain people (telling of > only my friend's good deeds but not others). Both good points and I agree! > > 5) For just observing her for the time that we spent with her, she > hardly needs to say what good deeds she has done as they come across > without being told! Seeing it has much higher quality for rejoicing > than hearing about it. Exactly! We've been considering this area in a very similar manner and i appreciated your post. Sarah 5599 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Dear Sarah, Thanks for taking time to reply and remind me of the essentials. Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Any particular interest in this passage? > > Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context? > > > > "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and > > regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will > > pass consciously,not unconsciously". I was thinking why Buddha gave such importance to mindfulness of breath that he even talked about the last breath at the time of death. But after reading the sutta, what I understood was that he mentioned it at the very end to show that if the meditation is done regularly in the correct manner, even the last breath, at the time of death, can be known. > Join the club! I think that beginning to realise that there really is moha at > every turn is a big step in the right direction! Usually we're just interested > in the dosa because it's so unpleasant but what about all the lobha and moha > that we're seldom interested in? I was thinking also in terms of not being clear enough to put into words the prevailing state of mind and consequently feeling discouraged and then loosing interest. > I find it so encouraging that sati really can arise at any time and know any > reality. So even when the mind seems so clouded there are realities to be > known. They may not be the ones we'd choose if we could, but they are what are > conditioned at that moment and are ripe for sati to be aware of. When we begin > to realise that even when listening to dhamma, there are so many different > moments of kusala and akusala and of course seeing, hearing and the other sense > door processes in between, it shows there is a beginning of understanding of > the Buddha's teachings. This kind of understanding happens very rarely to me. > As I mentioned to Cybele, it may seem that we've had a day, a week or a month > of unpleasantness and dosa. Of course we are most concerned about it because it > is unpleasant. Probably at any given time, everyone on the list is experiencing > some conventional difficulties- financial, health, family or whatever- but of > course, really the problem is the moha and lack of understanding at any given > time. Sometimes I think that it is silly to complain about anything, but such moments a rare. > The comparison is conceit, mana, is it not? It's so common and I'm sure many of > us have similar thoughts from time to time, but it is just thinking about these > useless stories! In reality, no self but yes, lots of akusala citttas! Yes, and also to think that anything can be done to change the course of events. But very very hard to see this. > I don't think we have to try to work this out! Moments of doubt and worrying > are just that...they can also be known. At a moment of awareness (at any level) > and understanding, there is no doubt or thinking in this way. I wish I can remember this more often.( the wish is not without lobha). > In fact I was going to say to Paul and others on the topic of 'having one's > kilesa on show as an example of Buddhism'....I don't try to defend the > unwholesome speech/acts, but say 'yes, I'm just a beginner,,,' If you can say that, then why can't I. > Look forward to hearing more! Thanks for the encouragement. > Very best wishes, > Sarah > Best wishes to you, Sukin. ps. I was wondering this morning. What was the future Buddha doing, right up until the last moment before he attained enlightenment? I mean particularly, when he decided on the last day, not to arise from his seat until he arived at an understanding.