6600 From: ppp Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: anumodana. Hi, Khun Nina: Thank you very much for you warm reply. Yes, it is very nice indeed to get a benefit of the technology, so that we can discuss Dhamma again. As for your memory of Allen, I have the same idea. I would never never have been able to understand Dhamma without his help. He taugt me how to interpret your book (Bhuddhism in Daily Life), Khun Sujin's various talks/comments, and, more importantly how to understand (the essence of) the Budha's Teaching. As an academic, I've encounterd many many scholars, including Noam Chomsky, but I still think that Allen was the brightest guy I've ever met in my life (which, of course, doesn't mean, as we all know, that he was the nicest person I've met). Due to conferencing/publication, I've visited Holland three times for the last few years. And Holland, especially, Amsterdam is my FAVOURITE place. Once I step out of the Amsterdam Central Station, I feel "freedom", since it is such a toleratnt society. At any rate, I've negelcted Dhamma for a long long time, and there are so many things I have to learn from you. Best Wished, tadao 6601 From: ppp Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sanskrit and Pali grammars Hi, Derek: A small word, indeed. Sorry, I do not know your Sanskrit professor. (In average, I develop a course a term so that I can learn something new all the time. And as I mentioned previously, I hardly knew Sanskrit until a couple of months ago.) tadao 6602 From: ppp Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:54am Subject: Re: Dhammapada/Narada [DhammaStudyGroup] (was Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) Hi, Mike: Thank you very much for the information on the Taiwanese Web-site on Dhammapada. I will check it later. tadao 6603 From: gayan Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:44am Subject: Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah dear tadao, Everybody who thinks that what buddha taught has some essense, respects him and his words. Achan chah was giving a simile., which is inline with similes found in dhammapada. [links to A chahs's works can be found in www.accesstoinsight.org] rgds --- ppp wrote: > Dear all: > With respect to Aachaan Chah's comment, > if we know that "chiken shit" can be used as > fertilizer to nurish plants (i.e. right understanding) > we eventually eat to survive, it is nothing wrong > with collecting it. Many people, in fact, avoid > eggs under the assumption that they > contain too much bad colesterol, which > is the main underlying cause of the > hear-attack (i.e. wrong practice). > Sorry, I do not know who Aachaan Chah is, but > it is dengerous to practice Dhamma without > paying respect to Buddha's words. > tadao 6604 From: Ken Howard Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:49am Subject: Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life Dear Bruce, As a lurker of long standing, I am familiar with your views on the study-verses-formal-practice issue. If I remember correctly, it was a number of your earlier posts that I found particularly helpful. They eloquently asked the questions that I was trying to formulate in my own mind. I should point out that I am now a convert to the `other side' -- happy to toe the party line -- but even so, we seem to be seeing the issue from similar perspectives. For example, you are asking why it seems to be OK to listen to the Dhamma with the delusion that there is a self who is listening, but it is not OK to meditate in the same way. For all the excellent material on the overall issue, I haven't noticed any answers to precisely that question. But I have my own theories! I find it helpful to think of the Dhamma as a gift given by the Buddha, specifically to worldlings like us. So at the initial stage of accepting the gift, it is proper and Dhamma-consistent that we do so with the [involuntary] worldling's delusion that there is a self who accepts. The magic of the gift is that, at the moment we `take hold of it', the delusion of self slips away and we have understanding at the level of satipatthana. I'm not sure how far I can go with the gift simile, but perhaps it could be said that, while there is satipatthana, the time may be right for formal practice -- while there is no satipatthana, we are back to where we need to accept the gift (to listen to the Buddha's teaching). I am wondering if formal practice might be intended for the disciple in whom satipatthana is currently arising strongly and consistently (in whom there is, for some considerable time, no notion of self), and who is ready for a catalyst or impetus to push him on to the next stage (e.g. of Stream-entry) (?) Kind regards Ken Howard --- bruce wrote: > > 6605 From: Erik Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:59am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Anders > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders > > > Can you kindly READ ALL THE POSTS OF THIS THREAD INSTEAD OF JUMPING IN > >TO > > > RESCUE YOUR FELLOW MALE AND DANISH AND LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. > > > >Jeez, talk about accusing, Cybele. Your post here not only indicates that > >Erik is a nationalist (possible racist), but also a sexist. As Nietszche > >once said: > >"He who hunts monsters should see to that in the process, he does not > >become > >a monster himself." > > > We are becoming pathetic by now. > I am not hunting anybody. > I found that Erik interferred on a thread without actually following it > because indeed he assumed lots of things about my practice that indeed were > very much in harmony with his approach. > What shows me that he haven't read what I wrote previously. > I felt him very much coming in 'rescue' and I think that you are quite > capable of handling it alone. Cybele, darling, did you have any inkling of just how many chuckles I had writing that post to you? I know you have a deep-seated thing for us Scandinavians (admit it, you LOVE that cool Northern European thing--nothing like that to get you all hot & bothered!). I suspect I know why: that passionate latin blood needs a little (or maybe a LOT of) tempering, and I think that is why you so enjoy teasing us so much (in the same way I enjoy teasing you)! :) 6606 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Sweetheart, I love you!!!!! And a big metta citta to you too (did I get the jargon right there?). Anyway, I send you love, Derek. 6607 From: bruce Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 0:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life ken thanks so much for your input, it's insightful and very helpful....glad that you found past posts/queries of mine helpful, and kind of surprised, as i consider myself a bit fumble-mouthed when it comes to discussing the Dhamma... i still have one foot firmly in each camp (as far as i can tell) and will continue to practice through both sitting and studying until conditions determine otherwise :-) cheers bruce At 02:49 2001/07/20 -0000, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > As a lurker of long standing, I am familiar with your views on the > study-verses-formal-practice issue. If I remember correctly, it was a > number of your earlier posts that I found particularly helpful. They > eloquently asked the questions that I was trying to formulate in my > own mind. > > I should point out that I am now a convert to the `other > side' -- happy to toe the party line -- but even so, we seem to > be seeing the issue from similar perspectives. For example, you are > asking why it seems to be OK to listen to the Dhamma with the > delusion that there is a self who is listening, but it is not OK to > meditate in the same way. For all the excellent material on the > overall issue, I haven't noticed any answers to precisely that > question. But I have my own theories! > > I find it helpful to think of the Dhamma as a gift given by the > Buddha, specifically to worldlings like us. So at the initial stage > of accepting the gift, it is proper and Dhamma-consistent that we do > so with the [involuntary] worldling's delusion that there is a self > who accepts. The magic of the gift is that, at the moment we > `take hold of it', the delusion of self slips away and we > have understanding at the level of satipatthana. > > I'm not sure how far I can go with the gift simile, but perhaps > it could be said that, while there is satipatthana, the time may be > right for formal practice -- while there is no satipatthana, we are > back to where we need to accept the gift (to listen to the > Buddha's > teaching). > > I am wondering if formal practice might be intended for the disciple > in whom satipatthana is currently arising strongly and consistently > (in whom there is, for some considerable time, no notion of self), > and who is ready for a catalyst or impetus to push him on to the next > stage (e.g. of Stream-entry) (?) > > Kind regards > Ken Howard > 6608 From: Binh Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 0:01pm Subject: Dhammapada/Narada (complete version) --- "Jim Anderson" wrote: > > 4. Rev. Narada > http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------- BA: That site stores only the short English translation. The complete electronic version of the book by Ven. Narada (Pali, English, footnotes and associated stories) is stored at: http://www.metta.lk/english/index_author.htm#narada (Warning: it's a huge *.DOC file, about 7 Mb!) Metta, Binh 6609 From: ppp Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 4:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah I am not quite sure whom I am discussing with on Archan Chah's teaching. But my point is that if some Buddhist says that there is no reason/use in reading the actual words of the Buddha, then, he/she is in a denger of losing the sight of the Buddha's teaching. Even if the similes cited by Archan Chah and those uttered by the Buddha were exactly the same, this fact wouldn't gurantee that he and the Buddha are on the same wave-length (as far as the right practice is concerned). tadao 6610 From: Erik Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 0:17pm Subject: Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life > I'm not sure how far I can go with the gift simile, but perhaps > it could be said that, while there is satipatthana, the time may be > right for formal practice -- while there is no satipatthana, we are > back to where we need to accept the gift (to listen to the > Buddha's > teaching). I would agree with this if I understand your meaning correctly. In my case what has been most helpful is working through the incorrect understanding regarding views first and foremost. Basic study of the theory has been the most helpful in my own experience, and served as the springboard for actual meditation. Without knowing WHAT we're meditating on, any meditation automatically degenerates into wrong meditation. > I am wondering if formal practice might be intended for the disciple > in whom satipatthana is currently arising strongly and consistently > (in whom there is, for some considerable time, no notion of self), > and who is ready for a catalyst or impetus to push him on to the next > stage (e.g. of Stream-entry) (?) I think this makes a lot of sense. There's no sense putting the cart before the horse. What was most helpful for me is the Tibetan pedagogy called "trang-gye," which is a contraction meaning to "lead out" (of wrong view) and lead in (to Right View). I will shill a bit for the Tibetan Gelug-pa school's strategy here, which in my totally unbiased opinion (ha!) is incomparable for straightening out wrong views. Nothing else I've seen comes close in terms of detail, explicating very subtle points on what constitutes right vs. wrong view. To give some detail on what this pedagogy entails, it uses what's called the "Four Schools Pedagogy," the four schools representing the Vaibhasika, Sautrantika, Yogacara, and finally, Madhyamika, the final system, the correct system. What this pedagogy works through are the various wring views held and espoused by proponents of the so-called "lower" (non-Madhyamika) schools. These are views held by some proponents (no longer extant) of historical Buddhist interpretations of anatta (or as we call them in the Mahayana system, emptiness). It begins with the Vaibhasikas (Abhidhammists--and no, NOT the kind gentlefolk here--this is a hypothetical school no longer in existence yet was a view held by a certain sub-sect at some point into he distant past). It begins by taking apart the idea of paramattha dhammas as "absolute existents," and demonstrates how this is a fallacious view because it asserts that these paramattha dhammas exist absolutely, "by way of their own entitiness" or svabhava (Sanskrit svabhava, not the Pali sabhava, which to my understanding is somewhat different in interpretation). Using logic, one begins working through how this is a mistaken view. Next, it unpacks the view of the hypothetical school of the Sautrantikas, who held the view that there are such absolutely, "truly existent" entities called "partless particles," which are "zero-point" particles with "true" (read, inherent) existence. This view is refuted, using Master Vasubandhu's reasoning that such "partless particles" could not aggregate to form composed entities because if they lack parts, they lack even relationality in space (North, South, East, West, etc.), and would altogether occupy zero space, thus such a view entails an absurd conclusion. Next, it takes on the Yogacara view, which refutes these lower schools yet still manages to get stuck on the notion that there is something "truly existent," namely, consciousness, (this school is also referred to as the Cittamatra or Mind Only school). The view held by this school is that nothing apart from mind "truly exists" (there are not external objects, only mind--this is a nearly solipsistic view, but somewhat more subtle). This is shown to be in error using the refutations found in the higher school, the Madhyamika school, which refutes this as another logical absurdity. Things brings us to the Madhyamika system, which asserts that no entities exist inherently, apart from production. This is the correct view. Well, almost. There are two subdivisions within the Madhyamika school, the lower and higher. The lower being the Madhyamika- Svatantrika school espoused by Bhavaviveka, which denies the true existence of the personal self, but still somehow manages to assert that there is a difference between the emptiness (anatta) of persons and the emptiness of phenomena. This is taken on by the highest and final system, the Madhyamika- Prasangika school, which makes no distinction between the self of persons and the self of phenomena, which notes that ALL are empty of self-nature in precisely the same way, and uses the logic of negation and prasanga (prasanga means taking a syllogism and drawing it out to its absurd logical conclusion, as in, to follow such a line of reasoning entails the absurd consequence X) to demonstrate this conclusively. The Prasangika system makes no affirming or positivistic assertions about anything. It is purely a deconstrutive approach, as opposed the the Svatantrika school, which uses formalized autonomous syllogisms-- which is an erroneous way of reaching a conclusion since one is making positivistic logical assertions which always erquire the fundation of some unprovable axiom--the complete opposite of the Prasangika system, which is totally destructive of such syllogisms, favoring the deconstructive approach that negates all positivistic assertions, all of which at some level entail a logical absurdity. Within the Prasangika system, then, one uses negation of views (ditthi) to, via non-affirming negastion, to come to correct view of what emptiness (anatta) is. This is a POWERFUL approach. Stunningly so. It also perfectly fits in with what Peter Masefield noted as a critical aspect of the path as found in the Pali Suttas, namely, the so-aclled sysetm of "progressive instruction" the Buddha used to lead hidd disciples out of wriong view and into Right View. I came across Peter's thesis one place (after having gone through this training under one of my lamas) and all I could think was YES! Someone gets it! And Peter uses only the Pali Suttas for his referrences on this. This is how the Buddha led people straightaway to Right View in his sermons, resulting in the attainment of everything from stream-entry to arahat within the span of a single discourse. It may be true that few of us in this part of the sasana have the accumualations (Hui Neng comes to mind as a rare exception) to get it from progressive instruction alone. But in my opinion, this is critical, absolutely necessary, as a precursor for effective meditation. By-the-by, there is nothing in the progerssive pedagogy NOT found in the Pali Suttas. For example, one need only examine the Visuddhimagga beginning with XXI.53 to see where this is discussed. The Tibetan Prasangika system goes even further. The Gelug-pas have blown this out into the very finest detail, and it is truly remarkable as a meditation on emptiness. In addition, the Gelug-pas use all the standard 20 modes of analysis on emptiness found in the Vis. and goes even further using what they call the "Diamond Slivers," which further refine what emptiness is and is not (for example Vis. XX.6 et. al.). While I realize this is not as popular among those who have the accumulations to study the rise and fall, it is nonetheless, in my opinion, a critical point of study, since the arising and passing away of dhamma is implied by the study of anatta, and vice-versa. This INTELLECTUAL meditation can, by itself, if we are to accept what the Suttas say, enough for some to awaken on the spot. For nearly everyone else, though, it must be supplemented by dedicated sitting meditation, jhanas (for those so inclined), etc. But in my opinion, to have established a very clear and strong undersatnding of Right View intellectually first is the most beneficial. Without this we run the danger of having no clue what to look for in meditation. It is very easy to become confused by appearances, mistaking "experiences" for emptiness, which as Arya Nagarjuna has said "is the relinquishing of all views." 6611 From: Erik Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:45pm Subject: Question for Nina (and others) Nina, I have a question expanding somewhat on Herman's question on votthapanna (determinging consciousness), as well as how votthapana, javana, and tadarammana all hang together in terms of how kamma is created. I apologize, but due to space constraints (I moved to BKK with literally one bag on my back!), my copy of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" is now in storage back in NYC, but I do recall I didn't find any clarification on how votthapana, the javana cittas, and tadarramana all relate to one another within the same vithi. Okay, here's my question. Votthapana, as far as I can tell, is what determines the nature of the object such that it becomes known as something kusala or akusala, so when the javana cittas arise, followed by tadarammana, this is where the kammic sankharas are created in the sankharakhanda. Is this correct? Also, is votthapana similar in function to sanna in this sense, or are they just another way of saying the same thing, meaning, does sanna subsume the santirana and votthapana cittas? Is this where the "marking" of the arammana within the vithi occurs, or am I all wet on this? As you can hopefully see, I have quite a bit of confusion on the exact moment when the kusala/akusala/abyakata kamma is "planted" (for lack of a better word) in the sankharakhanda. My original guess has been that tadarammana, which is performing the function of "registering," is necessary for a sankhara to be created, and that this is, again from my limited guesswork, conditioned by the previous javana cittas, meaning, that if the process of javana aborts prior to completing (such as the five javana cittas that occur and then are interrupted near the moment of death), that there is no "registration" of the kusala/akusala/abhyakata kamma at all? In other words, from my faulty recollection from "Abhidhamma in Daily Life," at the moment of death the process is too weak to take it past five javana cittas, and the vithi is interrupted, meaning, that tadarramana never has a chance to "register" the result, meaning there is no kamma created at all if the vithi is aborted prior to the completion of the seven javana cittas PLUS the result being registered by tadarramana. To recap in the simplest terms: is tadarammana necessary to register kamma, or is it the jaavna cittas that perform the function of creating kamma? Thanks, Erik 6612 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:18pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Dear Cybele, --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Buddha attained enlightenment through meditation, sitting crosslegged and > contemplating the four foundations of mindfulness. > This we are taught - whether in Theravada, or Tibetian, or Zen, or Pure land > Schools, even the Nichiren use meditation as a tool in the practice. I am sorry I have been avoiding this direct question, and have been discussing other issues that I thought were important in understanding what Satipathanna really was. I have discussed issues that were easy to demonstrate that they are not part of what the Buddha were teaching as Satipatthana so that I remind myself and perhaps others that not all what we hear, even from respected source, are the teachings of the Buddha. The questions that you directly ask is obviously more tenuous as now I would have to explain what I understand Satipathanna to be and to justify why one would do something seeminly not in line with what the Buddha said. (Wouldn't you agree that it is easier to dispute what is not than to prove what is?) I was hoping to hear you explain what Satipathana and insights really were (and hence, the question of what is formal/not formal, and what is/isn't) and see how close we are in understandings (so that the message doesn't have to be this long and perhaps dry and boring). Given that I didn't succeed to nail down what you understood, I now am writing this message which maybe longer than what I originally plan to do on the topic. Let me first make a comment that I am not (or am not currently!) against samatha meditation of any kind. I will be using the words Samatha meditation and satipathana from here. For their differences (and meanings?), see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL 20POST%20LINKS under Samatha & Vipssana Bhavana. I found this (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/941 ) to be very concise and clear explanation. What I understand Satipathanna to be is this: to be free from this birth- death cycle, one must know the realities as they are, as impermanent, dukkha, and anatta. This appears to be the absolute requirement, most likely indisputable, of any suttas we come across when talking about attainment or people who have attained. The logics and the observations (which could be wrong) are the followings: 1) As Roberts has pointed out, there are people mentioned to attain not in sitting position. Englightenment is not exclusive to sitting position. I think you and I agree on this point. 2) It is not obvious either that people who attained developed Jhana to at least the first rupa jhana. For those people not explicitly mentioned in the commentary, we can only conclude that they either don't, or the information is omitted. 3) There are people who attained based on hearing the teachings of the Buddha alone. Although it is often unclear what their background in developing samatha meditation in that life is, one thing is usually clear, they realize some characteristics of realities as they truly are. The sutta that I have read mentioned the impermanence of realities. 4) The commentaries mentioned people who became englightened without the attainment of Jhana. 5) If we read other suttas that implied the development of the path, it seems like there are many paths, many practices that you can choose from for the development of wisdom. Yet, in the Satipatthana, it is mentioned to be (perhaps ambiguously for some people) the only path. These two observations are obviously in contradiction. For example, take a look at Annapanasati sutta (at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html). The Buddha appeared to categorize the attending bikkhus into 7 (exclusive) categories. There are 4 that have attained, 2 types that appear to be explicitly developing the path, and 1 type that perhaps can be implied to be developing the path. Only one of those types explicitly developed the path through annapanasati (the breathing meditation/awareness). Are these 2 different approaches in developing the path? Yet the path is one? Now, if you have looked at Robert's explanation, and all Nina's materials, you will undoubtedly come to the same conclusion what they are trying to explain. The absolute requirement, regardless of one's disposition to develop other levels of wholesome qualities or accumulation, is to know realities as they truly are (now). Without this knowledge (not just conceptual thoughts), one does not attain, regardless of one's other "practices" in that life or other accumulations. I will be just parroting what have been said many times by some members of this group. Knowing the realities as they are means knowing them now. One doesn't have to be doing anything in particular (except for sleeping) for this to occur. One does not have to sit, does not have to stand, does not have to walk, one can even be dying when this occurs. Why then, one might ask, did the Buddha explain about sitting crossed- legged in Maha-Satipatthana sutta? If you remember, I asked you if Maha- satipatthana is a step-by-step manual, i.e., one has to complete all the steps to complete the practice. If the teachings I heard from the meditation schools are the same that you have heard, the answer is no. (I didn't see any corpses or bones in these retreats) The question I have is, why skip the other ones? What did the Buddha say to have us do one and skip the others? What do you mean one path? I can choose one object but not the others: that seems like more than paths to me... Now if you take what some people said that the Buddhas often teach the dhammas appropriate to the accumulation and liking of the people attending his talk, and that Satipatthana is nothing (figuratively only; Satipatthana is profound and subtle, self-reachable by only 2 kinds of Buddhas) more than knowing the realities as they are. The answer is clear (to me). People at the Buddha's time are highly attuned to doing samatha meditations *already*, even before hearing the Buddha's teachings, including annapanasati (observing the breath) and asubha bhavana (contemplating corpses and bones). Buddha is mentioning to them that even then, when developing Samatha bhavana, there are realities that are suitable objects of Satipatthana. The point that I am concluding (wrongly or rightly) is this, one needs to sit to develop samatha meditation, definitely for Jhana level, and most likely for access (Upacara) level. One does not need to sit to know realities as they truly are. I think this is the reason why some people in this group doesn't think that one has to be sitting cross-legged to develop satipatthana. Is Samatha bhavana (sitting meditation) necessary for one to reach the path? I suspect that one needs to have enough accumulation of this type to attain the path, either in this life or in prior lives. However, this is not the only kinds of Kusala that is not satipatthana that is needed to attain the path. It is said that one need to fully accumulate the 10 paramis (see http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of 20insight.htm) including: Giving (dana), Virtue (sila), Renunciation (nekhamma), Wisdom (panna), Energy (viriya), Patience (Khanti), Truthfulness (sacca), Determination (adthithana), Loving-kindness (metta), and Equanimity (upekkha). It seems to me that one has to have accumulated more than the awareness of the current realities in order to reach the path (eventually). One of these is mentioned to be Jhana (Nekkhama). Have any of us accumulated enough of each parami to reach the path? Unknown: maybe, or maybe not. Should we develop all kinds of kusala whenever possible? Absolutely. What is it that maybe unique in this life but not the next? The development of Satipatthana. It is possible to be developing other kinds of kusala in a life without the buddha. Why do I not practice samatha bhavana (which I equate to when one has to sit down, cross-legged) to the level of access and jhana concentration? I have alluded to this in one of the messages I responded to you. I am not confident that the meditation teachers that I have met understood the differences between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana sufficiently. One may be developing miccha samathi but is deluded to be developing samatha bhavana, and worse yet, vipassana bhavana. There are many warnings about Micha samathi and samma samathi. Based on my own experience, these differences are hard to know (to me). I clearly prefer the teachers who sticks as closely with the text as possible. Why is that? I have never ever run into a single other person in my life that explains what I know as me in such amazingly detailed description, and yet these descriptions appear to be true in every single way despite all the infinite subtleties. Not only this person penetrate all these realities thoroughly, but also he is able to explain them such that I too can understand. Truly marvelous. Why should my confidence of other teachings be higher than this person's? > is only studying the texts and conceptual thought. I am not convinced that Nina and Roberts, despite their lucidity in dhamma explanation, only study texts and conceptual thoughts. I am not implying that you suggest this, of course, but I think this is a generalization that doesn't hold true to everybody, or unless you are pointing out to me that I may be such a person. > dismantle this possiblity and reafirm your convictions. It is true that I only pointed out the discrepancies I saw. I was hoping to understand what you understood as Vipassana and "formal" meditation before I dove into such a message. Failing to understand what you meant, I didn't say anything else that might be useful or revealing to you. > I paid attention to your viewpoint, I am studying Abhidhamma and considering > the teachings, I am including such directions in my practice of daily Thank you for being so open and anumoddha for your investigation. > Otherwise as you are very keen on texts - you show me a text were this is > disclaimed. Although I am probably to the point of of being dogmatic sometimes about sticking to the texts, I do this (sometimes) because of the highest respect for the person saying those words. The ironic part of this is, I understand the teachings from the people whom I think adhere to this noble tradition (of explaining the true meanings, of verifying other teachings, including their own, against the teaching of this person, of not inventing their own ideas and conceptual thoughts), and just start looking through the texts myself. It's going to take me another lifetime before I can quote you the texts that support all my understandings above. kom 6613 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:28pm Subject: Dhammapada/Narada [DhammaStudyGroup] (was Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) Dear Mike, Thanks a bunch! kom --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom and Tadao, > > If you don't already know about it, there's a > wonderful site in Taiwan with the Dhammapada in Pali > and English with analysis and with sound files for > individual words and whole sentences--a really great > site: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading.htm > > The sound files work best if you right-click on them > and select 'Save As' to put them on your hard drive, > them open them for play-back. > > mike > > --- ppp wrote: > > Hi, Kom: > > As for Dhamapada books, the book I like most is the > > following: > > Dhammapada: A Practical Guide to Right Living > > (Tesxt and Translation) by Venerable Aacharya > > Buddharakkhita Thera. Published by Buddha Vacana > > Trust, Maha Bodhi Society, Bangalore-9. > > I do not where I've got my copy, but it is very > > inexpensive, handy (light weight), and, most > > importantly, it contains orginal Pali texts (so > > that you can learn by heart any orignal > > Pali verses which you like). tadao > 6614 From: Erik Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:52pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Erik > > >--- "cybele chiodi" > >wrote: > > > > > The button you pushed is just this self confidence of yours that > >ggrrrrr I see as a hindrance to observe reality as it is because can be a > >shield of defensiveness. > > > >Then that is some negative conditioning you'll just have to overcome, > >Cybele. Misplaced confidence may be a hindrance, but can you possibly > >be the judge of such a thing in another? I think not. Best work on > >your own bhavana. > > Dear Erik very curious that YOU are the one who make this remark considering > how you get carried away by your own moods and beliefs quite often and I > have an apology letter of yours to prove it. I do indeed get carried away by my moods at times, being a moody person by accumulation, and you managed to catch me at literally the most difficult point in my life when my ability to consider the impact of my speech wasn't functioning very well at all. Not to make excuses for lapsing in tempering my words (I accept full responsibility for my speech). I recognize my typical character trait of bluntness can rankle at times, and seek to correct myself the moment I'm aware I've erred in any way. Then again, you need to meet me halfway and not get your dander up the moment I don't phrase things the way your ego would prefer to hear it. > Do you think that your approach with me is less harsh? > It is very unkind what you said Erik. Gah, Cybele, so quick to read hostility when nothing could be further from the truth! You love directness if I am to judge from your own communications to me, and I have no problem responding to you in kind, since samsara is infinitely more unpleasant than a couple of unvarnished words and entirely BENEFICIAL (as in connected with the goal) from your buddy Erik. If you take what I said as motivated by anything other than the very deepest concern for your well-being, then you have errred in your judgment severely about my intentions as your friend. As the Buddha said, the very best friends are those who rebuke us when necessary, even if that means having to do it in a way the ego gets upset with. In fact, if the ego gets upset abuot such a rebuke, then it demonstrates conclusively the message hit the mark. Now, as to your taking offense at what was to me quite a lighthearted ribbing really isn't anything I can help. That is solely your own projection machine revving up to full speed and imputing a motivation to me that had nothing to do with the sorts of cittas arising within my own mental continuum, which were (and I KNOW this) solely spoken with the deepest love for you and your well-being. You had damn well better know by now know I have nothing but the greatest respect and care for you dearest Cybele. But if you can't handle a little directness in the spirit of genuine friendship from time-to-time, then it's apparent you need to grow something like a much thicker skin. And folks who speak directly are your very best friends in this regard. Do not take this as patronization. You've pointed out to me areas I need to improve in as well and many deep bows to you for this. That is what true friendship int the Dhamma are all about, isn't it? > Your tone is very much incisive. By habit. I am a decisive person, and that is reflected in my speech and attitude. Sometimes I can be more direct than I should be, I confess, and that is definitely an area for improvement. I am SLOWLY growing more politic as time goes on, but if you think I'nm going to toss the baby out with the bathwater and become some mealy-mouthed terrified-to-offend milksop just to suit you (or anyone), think again. > I am not judging him, I am discussing without playing roles in all earnest. > Sharing and clarifying is already bhavana for me if you don't mind. > He doesn't need your virile friendship to support him; he is very clever and > quite stable. > No need to come out and defend your fellow danish. > Erik it seems that you cannot cope with my intensity but you are very > intense as well. And I accept you. I can cope with your intensity quite easily when you don't deny me the right to respond in kind, and I feel it is extremely unfair of you to deny me the same form of communication you engage in yourself (let's not mince words, you are as direct as anyone I've ever known, and I LOVE it!). To act one way yourself and deny another that same mode of interaction is, shall we say, a tad hypocritical. > You are going to meet me in Bkk if you care to, obviously and you will > verify that I am not different in real life than I am here. > What I declare I am - there is very little distinctions or incongruences. I don't doubt you are the same in real life as here. Indeed you're irrepressible. And I love it! :) > >Thank you, Anders. And I'm not agreeing with you because you're a > >fellow Dane, either, but because this statement is dead-on. If there > >is one thing understand about the Dharma it is this one point. > >Recognizing this fact is the critical antidote to the very dogmatism > >and ditthi that DIRECTLY acts as a bar awakening. This point cannot > >be underscored enough times. The dharma is all about skill-in-means > >(upaya), no more, no less. It has never been more than expedient > >means, never more than a raft. > > You are being dogmatic affirming this. No dear. I am telling it exactly like it is. If you don't like it, tough noogies, as they say. It is a fact, and a fact anyone serious about the Dharma had better learn pronto if the aim is to do anything more than slap a label Buddhist on oneself and pretend to be a follower of the Buddha's instructions. Was the Buddha dogmatic in affirming the Dharma is no more than a raft for crossing over? That is about as anti-dogmatic as it gets, the ONLY reason I label myself a Buddhist today, if you must know. And that is the precise sentiment I am repeating. And I'm repeating it because it's entirely borne out by direct experience. For me this isn't dogma, in the same way for me the existence of Bangkok isn't dogma. It's fact. I'm here. I can see it right outside my window. Bangkok exists. Period. Is making an entirely factual statement and kind of dogma? Hardly. > >Sorry Cybele, but we can and MUST aim, and aim high--as high as > >possible. Aspiration is the foundation of the path. Without the > >highest aspiration possible we don't stand a snowballs's chance in > >one of the hot hells of getting out of this mess. > > Erik, you misread me completely. > It's not about aspirations. It damn well IS about aspirations, Cybele. Show me anyone who lacks aspiration and you'll show me an aimless drifter with one foot in the grave. Suh a person is no follower of the ariyan Dhamma, which is ALL ABOUT the aspiration to reach supreme enlightenment. There is no alternative other than endless rounds of rebirth and suffering. > The point on not 'aiming' is don't becoming attached to the goal, but just > walk the path. Of COURSE we shouldn't become ATTACHED to the goal (or to progress). On the other hand, we can and should DESIRE (in the chanda, not tanha sense) to attain supremem enlightenment IN THIS VERY LIFETIME. As I see it, the dangers of ignoring aspiration are infinitely greater than any danger of becoming attached to the goal. High aspirations will naturally lead us to the teachers and teachings that help us avoid the very attachements many people seem to be so terrified of. Without high aspirations, we will sit ansd spin on the wheel of samasara endlessly, becasue we'll never bother to engage the needee practices to awaken. That is the only point I am making here, and it is a CRITICAL one. > And is so curious because I would say that by now my 'faith' and love for > Dhamma are so evident and you make such frivolous observations in my case. > And I am sorry Erik but in my school the goal is the path. This is, pardon me, a bunch of newage (rhyme with sewage) garbage, because this approach it is nowhere confirmed in any sutta I've ever come across. As if practice itself IS equivalent to enlightenment. No way! If that's all it is, then a frog sitting on a lilypad is just as enlightehed as a Buddha. Okay, I know this goal=path can be an expedient means for some who are really uptight about practice, and far be it from me to denigrate that which works for even one Dhamma practioner, but as a general rule, did you ever hear the Buddha teach the path is the goal? Find me that Sutta and I'll recant on the spot. > >Penetrating the > >charateristics of dhammas takes enormous effort and perserverance, > >and it is the aspiration to reach supreme enlightenment that is the > >fodder for the sort of pratice necessary to awaken. That means we > >need to practice at least as much as a musician practicing for a > >Carnegie Hall recital. Serious, day-in, day out, consistent, every- > >waking-second-focused-on-the-aim practice. If we don't have the > >aspiration to replicate the Buddha's awakening, then we'll never > >engage the practices necessary to do so, or we'll become discouraged > >at the first obstacle that comes our way and give up. We have to not > >only aim high, but also to have the confidence we can achieve that > >aim as well. > > Why have you chosen me to make such statements Erik. > I am a very serious practitioner. I know for sure you are dead-serious. Why are so so quick to assume this was directed at Cybele? Taking things personally isn't at all helpful (in fact it's just another expression of deeply-entrenched of self-cherishing). Thre was nothing specifically directed at you in this; it was more a general comment which happened to conveniently fit into the post I made. No more, no less. Dukkha is when we relate everything back to ME ME ME!!! It appears my reply to you has created a little dukkha, even though it was spone a a more general observation not directed specifically at you. > ERIK by now I am shouting my brains out. Ah, I do so love that passionate latin blood! > What are you talking about? I am talking about what is necessary for us to awakening to the Dhamma taught by Lord Buddha. No more, no less. > Can you kindly READ ALL THE POSTS OF THIS THREAD INSTEAD OF JUMPING IN TO > RESCUE YOUR FELLOW MALE AND DANISH AND LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. No. > I have set all my life to study and practice Dhamma, how can you be so > insensitive declaring this? Oh, that terrible, boorish Erik up to his old tricks again! It's obvious I need to go to sensitivity training courses to make sure I don't dare offend anyone's precious litle ego. Wouldn't want to do that, now would we? After all, ego, taking things personally, is the critical component of the path. Clinging to notions like "he abused me, he wronged me" is certain in accord with the Dhamma as the Buddha taught in the Dhammapada, no? :) > I am very much keen in practicing, you MISREAD ME, you got all wrong Erik. > Read all the thread and afterwards, we can discuss because you are indeed > JUDGING ME and spitting out sentences. Of course I'm judging your intepretation of practice (but NOT YOU PERSONALLY). If your ego takes offense at that, whoes problem is that? > You are not my teacher, my teacher is the path. Wow, Cybele, I'm a sorry but I didn't realize you'd already attained Buddhahood, so I guess I should shut up now, eh? I happen to consider everyone my teacher, from the lowliest worm to the Tathagatas, knowing just how much I have yet to learn. But I can see you have transcended all inorance, so there's obviousy nothing mroe for me to say to someone fully enlighetnhed like your conventional self. > We are really mirrors for each other. You are indeed a wonderful mirror for me Cybele, and I bow many times in your direction for your immense kindness in demonstrating where and when I err. I hope someday you'll come to appreciate my gift of friendship in doing the same for you. Love, Erik 6615 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom --- Anders Honore wrote: > --- "cybele chiodi" > wrote: > > > > Dear Anders > > > > > > Hope so. I already can visualize you dancing a samba naked in > the snow. > > > > Hehehehehehehehehehehehe! ;-) > > > > Invite me for the performance. > > > > > >Well, I should have more than enough time to practise, since snow > isn't due > > >to come for another five months. :-) > > > > Really? > > In England, there is already an awful climate, windy, rainy, cold > and > > depressive inducing. > > I think that I should come to visist you! ;-) > > You can dance even in the carpet, it's ok. > > Actually, the weather is starting to improve over hear. We've had > some awful weather as well for a while, but in the past few days, > things have begun to turn around. so can we expect a performance? Robert E. ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 6616 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:34pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana anihilation? (was Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Final round! --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > The Theravada do say that nibbana is an object of citta > > (consciousness). It is the object of magga-citta and > > Phala-citta. This is said in total ignorance, but: is it possible that nibbana is the object of consciousness in terms of focus in advanced practice, but that it is not actually cognized, identified, or perceived by that consciousness? This would allow nibbana to remain non-objective while still being a focus for attainment. At the realization of nibbana, the focus upon it would be abolished [even though it has never been seen] and nibbana would be realized as the cognizer rather than the object of cognition. This would in a sense mean that nibbana remains an idea of a sort, even for advanced practice right up until the time of actual attainment when all idea-images are dissolved in the realization of being the source rather than the receiver of consciousness. Is this off the wall? Robert E. ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 6617 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:42pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Extra time! --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Derek Cameron > > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 11:47 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Extra time! > > > --- "Anders Honoré" > wrote: > > But since Nibbana is an object cognised by the sixth > > sense (or so Kom claims. I don't find this to be true), or an object > > discerned by any conditioned dhamma how is it possible to discern > any > > Nibbana after Parinibbana? > > Anders, > > >With all these stream-enterers around I have to be careful what I > >say ;-) but I think of nibbana as an event, not as an object. > >Before nibbana -- chop wood, carry water. > >After nibbana -- chop wood, carry water. > >After parinibbana -- no more chopping wood, no more carrying water :-) > > I'll buy that one. :-) Now, should I go and chop wood one way or the > other... only if you're building a fire. robert e. ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 6618 From: Erik Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:57pm Subject: Re: Nibbana anihilation? (was Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Final round! --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > > The Theravada do say that nibbana is an object of citta > > > (consciousness). It is the object of magga-citta and > > > Phala-citta. > > This is said in total ignorance, but: is it possible that nibbana is the object > of consciousness in terms of focus in advanced practice, but that it is not > actually cognized, identified, or perceived by that consciousness? Your contention dones't sound at all ignorant to me. Nor to acharyas like Master Vasubandhu, who also questioned how Nibbana, lacking all marks, can possibly be "cognized" by citta, which by definition has sanna as a component among the sabba-citta-sadharana cetasikas. How can sanna perform its function when there is nothing to mark, Nibbana being unconditioned? I haev yet to see any satisfactory explanation of this, and yet if we read what Khun Sujin says: "Cakkhu-vinnana-citta does not arise with lobha, dosa, moha or any other sobhana-cetasika. Cakkhu-vinnana-citta arises with only seven cetasika, namely phassa-cetasika, vedana-cetasika, sanna-cetasika, cetana-cetasika, ekaggata-cetasika, jivitindriya-cetasika and manasikara-cetasika. These seven cetasika are the sabba-citta- sadharana-cetasika, the cetasika that arises with all citta. The citta cannot arise without these seven cetasika. No matter which kind of citta, akusala-, kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, lokuttara-citta or any citta whatever, would have to arise concurrently with these seven cetasika. These sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika are the annasamana-cetasika, or cetasika that conform with whatever they arise with. Concurring with akusala-citta, the seven sabba-citta- sadharana-cetasika are akusala; with kusala-citta, they are kusala etc." To recap the key point here: "No matter which kind of citta, akusala- , kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, ***lokuttara-citta*** or ***any citta whatever***, would have to arise concurrently with these seven cetasika." Very clearly lokuttara cittas have sanna using this definition from the Abhidhamma. What I'd like to understand is how the Abhidhamma can possibly support this contention, because by reason alone it entails the absdurd consequence that Nibbana is somehow conditioned! How could it be otherwise if sanna is a part of the mix? Sanna by definition requires someTHING to mark, and the act of "marking" immediately creates a this/that, subject/object (Nibbana as object, citta as subject) dichotomy. And nowhere is there any "mark" (other than anatta) that applies to Nibbana, and how can one possibly perceiev the existence of a mere absence of greed, hatred, and delusion? Given there are NO, as in, zero, zip, nada, nil, kein, nichivo conventional marks that pertain to Nibbana, how can sanna possibly perform any function of "marking" the Nibbaba as arammana without any samutti aspect there to mark? Can sanna possibly mark what doesn't even exist conventionally? > This would allow nibbana to remain non-objective while still being a focus for > attainment. At the realization of nibbana, the focus upon it would be abolished > [even though it has never been seen] and nibbana would be realized as the cognizer > rather than the object of cognition. I really like your probing this issue. It's something I've always questioned in terms of the notion that lokuttara cittas somehow "cognize" Nibbana. > This would in a sense mean that nibbana remains an idea of a sort, even for > advanced practice right up until the time of actual attainment when all > idea-images are dissolved in the realization of being the source rather than the > receiver of consciousness. > > Is this off the wall? Robert, you have elucidated what is an extremely subtle point here, and I thank you for bringing it up. Cheers, Erik 6619 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:55pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:17 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life > This is taken on by the highest and final system, the Madhyamika- > Prasangika school, which makes no distinction between the self of > persons and the self of phenomena, which notes that ALL are empty of > self-nature in precisely the same way, and uses the logic of negation > and prasanga (prasanga means taking a syllogism and drawing it out to > its absurd logical conclusion, as in, to follow such a line of > reasoning entails the absurd consequence X) to demonstrate this > conclusively. > > The Prasangika system makes no affirming or positivistic assertions > about anything. It is purely a deconstrutive approach, as opposed the > the Svatantrika school, which uses formalized autonomous syllogisms-- > which is an erroneous way of reaching a conclusion since one is > making positivistic logical assertions which always erquire the > fundation of some unprovable axiom--the complete opposite of the > Prasangika system, which is totally destructive of such syllogisms, > favoring the deconstructive approach that negates all positivistic > assertions, all of which at some level entail a logical absurdity. > > Within the Prasangika system, then, one uses negation of views > (ditthi) to, via non-affirming negastion, to come to correct view of > what emptiness (anatta) is. > > This is a POWERFUL approach. Stunningly so. It also perfectly fits in > with what Peter Masefield noted as a critical aspect of the path as > found in the Pali Suttas, namely, the so-aclled sysetm > of "progressive instruction" the Buddha used to lead hidd disciples > out of wriong view and into Right View. > > I came across Peter's thesis one place (after having gone through > this training under one of my lamas) and all I could think was YES! > Someone gets it! And Peter uses only the Pali Suttas for his > referrences on this. This is how the Buddha led people straightaway > to Right View in his sermons, resulting in the attainment of > everything from stream-entry to arahat within the span of a single > discourse. > > It may be true that few of us in this part of the sasana have the > accumualations (Hui Neng comes to mind as a rare exception) to get it > from progressive instruction alone. But in my opinion, this is > critical, absolutely necessary, as a precursor for effective > meditation. > > By-the-by, there is nothing in the progerssive pedagogy NOT found in > the Pali Suttas. For example, one need only examine the Visuddhimagga > beginning with XXI.53 to see where this is discussed. The Tibetan > Prasangika system goes even further. The Gelug-pas have blown this > out into the very finest detail, and it is truly remarkable as a > meditation on emptiness. In addition, the Gelug-pas use all the > standard 20 modes of analysis on emptiness found in the Vis. and goes > even further using what they call the "Diamond Slivers," which > further refine what emptiness is and is not (for example Vis. XX.6 > et. al.). > > While I realize this is not as popular among those who have the > accumulations to study the rise and fall, it is nonetheless, in my > opinion, a critical point of study, since the arising and passing > away of dhamma is implied by the study of anatta, and vice-versa. > > This INTELLECTUAL meditation can, by itself, if we are to accept what > the Suttas say, enough for some to awaken on the spot. For nearly > everyone else, though, it must be supplemented by dedicated sitting > meditation, jhanas (for those so inclined), etc. But in my opinion, > to have established a very clear and strong undersatnding of Right > View intellectually first is the most beneficial. Without this we run > the danger of having no clue what to look for in meditation. It is > very easy to become confused by appearances, mistaking "experiences" > for emptiness, which as Arya Nagarjuna has said "is the relinquishing > of all views." Ah, Nagarjuna. A great chap really. He took emptiness to its absolute limit to destroy the fallacious views flourishing in the various schools and then he put it down and never touched upon the subject again. His writings on the path as such are actually quite clear and thorough though. Perhaps it would interest you to know (I know I've said this before) that he actually said that the Buddha did teach self, for those who understood the derived implication of the word. Regards, Anders Honore ************************************************* Leaves from the Buddha's Grove: http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/ ************************************************* 6620 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:57pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah ----- Original Message ----- From: ppp Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah > I am not quite sure whom I am discussing with on > Archan Chah's teaching. But my point is that > if some Buddhist says that there is no reason/use > in reading the actual words of the Buddha, then, > he/she is in a denger of losing the sight of the > Buddha's teaching. Even if the similes cited by > Archan Chah and those uttered by the Buddha were > exactly the same, this fact wouldn't > gurantee that he and the Buddha are on the same > wave-length (as far as the right practice is > concerned). > tadao Nonetheless, the difference between a real-life teacher and the Buddha is that the real-life teacher can adapt to the present circumstances, which the suttas can't. 6621 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 4:00pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Practice and Ajahn Chah ----- Original Message ----- From: ppp Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 2:42 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Practice and Ajahn Chah > Dear all: > With respect to Aachaan Chah's comment, > if we know that "chiken shit" can be used as > fertilizer to nurish plants (i.e. right understanding) > we eventually eat to survive, it is nothing wrong > with collecting it. Many people, in fact, avoid > eggs under the assumption that they > contain too much bad colesterol, which > is the main underlying cause of the > hear-attack (i.e. wrong practice). > Sorry, I do not know who Aachaan Chah is, but > it is dengerous to practice Dhamma without > paying respect to Buddha's words. Ajahn Chah was, at least as I see it, probably the greatest Thai Theravadan teacher of the 20th century. You should read some of his stuff. It's great. I have lots of teachings from him available at my website. Anders Honore ************************************************* Leaves from the Buddha's Grove: http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/ ************************************************* 6622 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 4:02pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting in the 'AgathaChristie ' village in West Sussex ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 1:49 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting in the 'AgathaChristie ' village in West Sussex >No, Anders, but I fully intend to market the sacred molars I am yet to manufacture in my little shed out the back. This will hopefully allow me to do away with the dana my employer so graciously extends to me :-) LOL! --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > And who was Osho's dentist? > > > > (rhetorical question only, no reply required, or merited ) > > Herman, are you trying to tell us that YOU KNEW Osho's dentist!?! 6623 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 4:03pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Epstein Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom > > --- Anders Honore wrote: > > --- "cybele chiodi" > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Anders > > > > > > > > Hope so. I already can visualize you dancing a samba naked in > > the snow. > > > > > Hehehehehehehehehehehehe! ;-) > > > > > Invite me for the performance. > > > > > > > >Well, I should have more than enough time to practise, since snow > > isn't due > > > >to come for another five months. :-) > > > > > > Really? > > > In England, there is already an awful climate, windy, rainy, cold > > and > > > depressive inducing. > > > I think that I should come to visist you! ;-) > > > You can dance even in the carpet, it's ok. > > > > Actually, the weather is starting to improve over hear. We've had > > some awful weather as well for a while, but in the past few days, > > things have begun to turn around. > > so can we expect a performance? Haha, well I learned a funk-dance routine much faster than anticipated during rehearsal for a play, so I might just make it in time! :-) 6624 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Dear Tadao Very surprised you don't know Ajahn Chah; he is considered in the Theravada world one of the most eminent monks and teachers. Like Buddhadasa in importance without being a scholar. He was for the active practice with a lot of enhancement on meditation. And regarding 'losing sight of the Buddha's of the Budddha's teachings', his 'order' of Forest Monks is one of the most strict on Vinaya rules for example. Most of the greatest teachers have always been humorous and without pomposity. Wisdom it is not always solemn. Metta Cybele > >I am not quite sure whom I am discussing with on >Archan Chah's teaching. But my point is that >if some Buddhist says that there is no reason/use >in reading the actual words of the Buddha, then, >he/she is in a denger of losing the sight of the >Buddha's teaching. Even if the similes cited by >Archan Chah and those uttered by the Buddha were >exactly the same, this fact wouldn't >gurantee that he and the Buddha are on the same >wave-length (as far as the right practice is >concerned). >tadao > 6625 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders Dear Anders > > >"He who hunts monsters should see to that in the process, he does >not > > >become > > >a monster himself." > > > > > > We are becoming pathetic by now. > > I am not hunting anybody. > > I found that Erik interferred on a thread without actually >following it because indeed he assumed lots of things about my practice >that indeed were very much in harmony with his approach. > > What shows me that he haven't read what I wrote previously. > > I felt him very much coming in 'rescue' and I think that you are >quite capable of handling it alone. >Yup. But Nietszche's words are certainly worth noting. Everything is worth noting for me Anders. And is curious you quotate Nietszche on a remark against my assumed attack on 'nationalism'. Cybele 6626 From: Tori Korshak Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhist path and meditation - sharing with Tori and everybody > Dear Cybele, Dhamma is uplifting, kalyana, Meditation is mind training, enabling awareness, a determining factor, a conditon. Studying provides the knowledge, meditation provides the experience, like the blind man carrying the cripple. Together they help each other. Metta, Victoria >Dhamma is lively, I don't let myself be fooled by rigidity >and narrowmindness, Dhamma is wide enough to embrace everybody and >everything, is heartwarming and a source of strenght, it's fullness, openess >because is empty of self and can contain everything without oppression: >dhamma is about freedom, be still and feel the refreshing breeze in this hot >afternoon. :-) >Just practicing for it's own sake, I don't demand nothing, I don't expect >nothing just being present, awake to this very moment. > >Love > >CYbele > > 6627 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:36pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah > > Dear Tadao > > Very surprised you don't know Ajahn Chah; he is considered in the Theravada > world one of the most eminent monks and teachers. > Like Buddhadasa in importance without being a scholar. > He was for the active practice with a lot of enhancement on meditation. > And regarding 'losing sight of the Buddha's of the Budddha's teachings', his > 'order' of Forest Monks is one of the most strict on Vinaya rules for > example. > Most of the greatest teachers have always been humorous and without > pomposity. > Wisdom it is not always solemn. A friend of mine actually emailed a story about him just yesterday. It goes like this: One time, a lady who was an expert at Abhidhamma and a teacher of Abhidhamma came to see Ajahn Chah. She told him how studying the Abhidhamma helped her understanding. Ajahn Chah smiled. Then she told him how the books of Abhidhamma helped her students grasp the teachings. Ajahn Chah smiled and agreed. Then she asked him if he encouraged his students to study Abidhamma too. He said he did. Then she asked "what books?" Ajahn Chan pointed to his heart and said, "Only here. Only here." 6628 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:33pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders > >Yup. But Nietszche's words are certainly worth noting. > > Everything is worth noting for me Anders. > And is curious you quotate Nietszche on a remark against my assumed attack > on 'nationalism'. Yes, isn't it? Nonetheless, the test of those words lies in your own use of them, not some German philosopher's. 6629 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:37pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Extra time! ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Epstein Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Extra time! > > I'll buy that one. :-) Now, should I go and chop wood one way or the > > other... > > only if you're building a fire. Aah, I'll just go carry the water instead then. 6630 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:45pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana anihilation? (was Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Final round! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:57 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana anihilation? (was Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Final round! >Your contention dones't sound at all ignorant to me. Nor to acharyas like Master Vasubandhu, who also questioned how Nibbana, lacking all marks, can possibly be "cognized" by citta, which by definition has sanna as a component among the sabba-citta-sadharana cetasikas. How can sanna perform its function when there is nothing to mark, Nibbana being unconditioned? I haev yet to see any satisfactory explanation of this, and yet if we read what Khun Sujin says: >"Cakkhu-vinnana-citta does not arise with lobha, dosa, moha or any other sobhana-cetasika. Cakkhu-vinnana-citta arises with only seven cetasika, namely phassa-cetasika, vedana-cetasika, sanna-cetasika, cetana-cetasika, ekaggata-cetasika, jivitindriya-cetasika and manasikara-cetasika. These seven cetasika are the sabba-citta- sadharana-cetasika, the cetasika that arises with all citta. The citta cannot arise without these seven cetasika. No matter which kind of citta, akusala-, kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, lokuttara-citta or any citta whatever, would have to arise concurrently with these seven cetasika. These sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika are the annasamana-cetasika, or cetasika that conform with whatever they arise with. Concurring with akusala-citta, the seven sabba-citta- sadharana-cetasika are akusala; with kusala-citta, they are kusala etc." >To recap the key point here: "No matter which kind of citta, akusala- , kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, ***lokuttara-citta*** or ***any citta whatever***, would have to arise concurrently with these seven cetasika." >Very clearly lokuttara cittas have sanna using this definition from the Abhidhamma. What I'd like to understand is how the Abhidhamma can possibly support this contention, because by reason alone it entails the absdurd consequence that Nibbana is somehow conditioned! How could it be otherwise if sanna is a part of the mix? Sanna by definition requires someTHING to mark, and the act of "marking" immediately creates a this/that, subject/object (Nibbana as object, citta as subject) dichotomy. And nowhere is there any "mark" (other than anatta) that applies to Nibbana, and how can one possibly perceiev the existence of a mere absence of greed, hatred, and delusion? Given there are NO, as in, zero, zip, nada, nil, kein, nichivo conventional marks that pertain to Nibbana, how can sanna possibly perform any function of "marking" the Nibbaba as arammana without any samutti aspect there to mark? Can sanna possibly mark what doesn't even exist conventionally? >I really like your probing this issue. It's something I've always >questioned in terms of the notion that lokuttara cittas >somehow "cognize" Nibbana. I have to say that the Mahayanist scriptures are a lot more clear on this subject than the Pali Canon (I guess that's why they wrote them). I thought the subject was settled with the sutta quotation I provided about consciousness without feature and end, being unconditioned, but that wasn't really accepted since unestablished consciousness as Nibbana is mentioned only in two suttas. Well, I have let my view of all this be known and this is the last participation that I will make on this subject. 6631 From: Ong Teng Kee <165071178165221135048061175168240089018102139234061113> Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 7:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]bhavangacitta(Jim) Dear Jim, I think this email by Nina is a good reply for your question about bhavanga .If we try to know the bhavanga object through mind door ,it will follow by 7 kusala or akusala javana which is still not the resultant bhavanga citta.The other 5 doors won't work as well. ----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:15:25 +0200 To: <114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013098114113048091051010099190191156009204035181> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]bhavangacitta > op 17-07-2001 06:02 schreef Robert Kirkpatrick op > Robert: > > > Dear Howard, > > A very good question. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall > > according to their nature. However, they arise and fall in > > processes. In between each process there are bhavanga cittas > > (the same cittas that arise and fall continually during deep > > sleep). In a sense they are the cushioning area between > > processes. > > I just heard on a tape someoone say to Acharn sujin that only > > the buddha and wise disciple like sariputta could really know > > bhavanga citta but Sujin said that even developed insight now > > can understand it (to some degree).The gist of what she was > > saying is that other wise it would seem like seeing and hearing, > > for example, blended into each other (because there is no gap > > between cittas) but panna (insight) sees that this is not so. > > Also upon awakening from deep sleep if sati arises the > > difference between bhavanga and the sense door and minddoor > > processes can be known. "We" could never see these matters but > > it is the function of panna to do its duty and understand. > > Dear friends, I am very glad Robert wrote about the tape on bhavanga. I > would like to add a few things. I was present there and I remarked to Acharn > that I was so surprised that bhavangacitta could be object of awareness. > Acharn answerd: cannot be experienced.> When I asked: can the object of bhavangacitta be > known, the answer was: no. She explained about bhavangacitta: there is > nothing appearing and then an object appears when there are cittas arising > in a process that experience one of the objects through six doors. In other > words, there is nothing, meaning, no object impinges on one of the doorways > so that it can appear. Thus, we should not exclude bhavangacitta from the > objects of awareness. > Bhavangacitta is a difficult subject and I have heard that some people > translate it as subconsciousness, but this creates misunderstandings. It is > a citta that arises and falls away, there is a succession of them in between > the processes of cittas (vithicittas). They are citta, experiencing an > object and accompanied by feeling. What object, what feeling? Just before > death of the previous life kamma conditioned the last javana cittas, that > are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. If kusala kamma will produce a happy > rebirth, it conditions kusala javanacittas experiencing a desirable object, > and, as Acharn Sujin explained, it can be an object experienced through any > of the six doors. The rebirth-consciousness is not kusala citta, it is > kusala vipakacitta, thus of the jati (nature) of vipaka, result. There are > different types and of different degrees (for details, see Abhidhamma in > Daily Life, Ch 11). They can be with or without panna, they can be > accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. They experience an > object, but not an object that is impinging on one of the six doors, like > the cittas, arising in processes. They experience the same object as the > object experienced by the last javanacittas of the previous life. The > succeeding bhavangacitta and all the bhavangacittas are the same type of > vipakacitta as the rebirth-consciousness, and they experience the same > object, and they are accompanied by the same feeling, pleasant or > indifferent. > If akusala kamma will produce an unhappy rebirth, it conditions akusala > javanacittas just before death and these experience an undesirable object, > such as a symbol or sign of the akusala kamma one performed, or an image of > one's nextdestiny. The rebirthconsciousness that is akusala vipaka > experiences the same undesirable object, and it is accompanied by > indifferent feeling. It is actually the same type of citta as > santiranacitta, investigating consciousness, but here it does not arise in a > process, it is "doorfreed" (dvara vimutta) and performs the function of > rebirth. It is ahetuka (rootless) akusala vipakacitta. Thus, although the > last javanacittas that were akusala cittas could be dosamulacittas > accompanied by unpleasant feeling, the vipakacitta that is > rebirth-consciousness conditioned by the akusala kamma conditioning those > javanacittas, cannot be accompanied by unpleasant feeling, it is ahetuka > vipakacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling only. The following > bhavangacittas are the same type of citta, experiencing the same undesirable > object, accompanied by the same feeling. > > Jonothan touched on another important point: can we find details on the > processes of cittas in the scriptures, or is there just the nucleus of them? > I have mentioned this in my preface to "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", > because I thought people would like to know about this. Yes, we find > important material on this subject in the "Path of Discrimination", > Patisambhidamagga, of the Khuddaka Nikaya, Treatise on Knowledge, Ch XVII, > Behaviour, Cariya. And also in the Conditional Relations, Patthana, Feeling > Triplet, Investigation Chapter, under Proximity and Repetition, where also > the process of enlightenment is dealt with. But we have to know that the > cittas arising in processes are referred to as mind-element (including > adverting-consciousness and receiving-consciousness) and > mind-consciousness-element (all cittas other than those included in > mind-element and the sense-cognitions of seeing, etc.). I shall not quote > now, that takes too much time. The commentaries have worked out more > details, but they are based on very old sources of the Theravada tradition. > Buddhagosa did not put in his own ideas. > Nina. > 6632 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:30pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Anders Dear Anders > > >Yup. But Nietszche's words are certainly worth noting. > > > > Everything is worth noting for me Anders. > > And is curious you quotate Nietszche on a remark against my assumed >attack > > on 'nationalism'. > >Yes, isn't it? Nonetheless, the test of those words lies in your own use of >them, not some German philosopher's. Yes but you cannot dismiss the fact that quotating the philosopher you burden the message of a particular indeniable significance 'connected'. Difficult noting without considering the cultural/social aspect in this case for me. Cultural conditionings are extremely hard to uproot. Cybele 6633 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:40pm Subject: Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Tadao, I went through a phase 8 or 9 years ago when I read "A Still Forest Pool: The Insight Meditation of Achaan Chah" repeatedly. It certainly helped me to suffer less. I went to the temple in Thailand where his remains are kept purely out of respect for him, to express my gratitude for his teachings. Derek. 6634 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhist path and meditation - sharing with Tori and everybody Dear Tori > >Dear Cybele, > > Dhamma is uplifting, kalyana, Meditation is mind training, enabling >awareness, a determining factor, a conditon. Studying provides the >knowledge, meditation provides the experience, like the blind man carrying >the cripple. Together they help each other. > >Metta, >Victoria > Sadhu x 3 dear friend. What is the true meditation? It is to make everything: coughing, swallowing, waving the arms, actions, the evil and the good, prosperity and shame, gain and loss, right and wrong, into one single koan. Hakuin Love Cybele 6635 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Dear Derek > >Tadao, I went through a phase 8 or 9 years ago when I read "A Still >Forest Pool: The Insight Meditation of Achaan Chah" repeatedly. It >certainly helped me to suffer less. I went to the temple in Thailand >where his remains are kept purely out of respect for him, to express >my gratitude for his teachings. > >Derek. I share your admiration and reverence for Ajahn Chah. When I read his books there is a disclosure inside me, compassion arises and understanding of Dhamma becomes experience. I was attracted to Theravada teachings because of a wonderful book of his disciple Ajahn Sumeddho - 'The mind and the way'. 'A Still Forest Pool' is a very inspiring book indeed. He was a great teacher and a great human being. I bow to his memory. Cybele 6636 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Dear Gayan >oh..easy for me.. >just 70+ miles from where i live. > Lucky guy!!! You live in paradise. Serendipy Island! ;-) I love Sri Lanka Gayan, I lived in Kandy and I spent plenty of time in Nilambe high up among tea plantations near Galaha. There I took the refuges and precepts with Ven. Dhammika. Have you ever been there? Did you meet Godwin Samaratne? Love Cybele 6637 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:54pm Subject: A Path with heart it was Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Dear Anders Dear everybody > > Most of the greatest teachers have always been humorous and without > > pomposity. > > Wisdom it is not always solemn. Anders: >A friend of mine actually emailed a story about him just yesterday. It goes >like this: > >One time, a lady who was an expert at Abhidhamma and a teacher of >Abhidhamma came to see Ajahn Chah. She told him how studying the >Abhidhamma helped her understanding. Ajahn Chah smiled. Then she told >him how the books of Abhidhamma helped her students grasp the >teachings. Ajahn Chah smiled and agreed. Then she asked him if he >encouraged his students to study Abidhamma too. He said he did. Then >she >asked "what books?" Ajahn Chan pointed to his heart and said, "Only >here. Only here." Thank you very much for this. Very soothing. I am also a firm believer of a path with heart: there is no wisdom without compassion and when compassion arises it is because there is already a clear comprehension. This is also my personal journey and has been unfolding like this since I have memory of it. I was indeed reflecting, pondering this morning that I am far too anarchyc for the imprinting of this list. Here the members are for the analytical approach of Dhamma, very logical, methodic, rational, abstract, concentrated; sticking faithfully to the texts and not considering different perspectives that could be a distraction or misleading for their studies. I am ardent, passionate, intuitive, misruled, never abstract, always referring to actual experience, very openminded to different sources of knowledge. Sometimes communication just doesn't occur, the right conditions are not there and my skills are limited by my own conditionings and I feel quite frustrated, powerless. I get impatient. I try to 'listen' to others and not only to my self just seeking reassurance on my 'beliefs'. But often I don't feel 'exchange', there is a kind of impermeability. Whether no one is listening or I am totally unable to communicate in a intelligible language for this list. Or both. Perhaps I should consider the Zen saying: Say one word with your mouth shut! And as Erik say mind 'my own bhavana' instead of struggling to communicate. Anyway whatever I have to express is certainly not so important uttering. Or listening. Metta Cybele 6638 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Fwd: [Women-in-Buddhism] 20 Difficulties For Humans, smile :) >The Buddha said : > >"There are twenty difficult things which are hard for human beings: > >1. It is hard to practice charity when one is poor. >2. It is hard to study the Way when occupying a position of great >authority. >3. It is hard to surrender life at the approach of inevitable death. >4. It is hard to get an opportunity to read the sutras. >5. It is hard to be born directly into a Buddhist environment. >6. It is hard to bear lust and desire without yielding to them. >7. It is hard to see something attractive without desiring it. > >*8. It is hard to bear insult without making an angry reply [smile :)] > >9. It is hard to have power and not pay regard to it. >10. It is hard to come in contact with things and yet remain >unaffected by them. >11. It is hard to study widely and investigate everything thoroughly. >12. It is hard to overcome selfishness and sloth. >13. It is hard to avoid making light without having studied the Way >enough. >14. It is hard to keep the mind evenly balanced. >15. It is hard to refrain from defining things as being something or >not being something. >16. It is hard to come into contact with clear perception of the Way. >17. It is hard to perceive one's own nature and through such >perception to study the Way. > >*18. It is hard to help others towards Enlightenment according to >their various needs. [keep smiling :) regularly] > >19. It is hard to see the end of the Way without being moved. >20. It is hard to discard successfully the shackles that bind us to >the wheel of life and death as opportunities present themselves." > >(From: The Sutra of 42 Sections, Kinh Tu+' Tha^.p Nhi. Chu+o+ng) > > >Metta > >Cybele > 6639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:15pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity Anders Thanks for your comments. > > Just one aspect of your post I would like to comment on. You said- > > > > > Panna arises when one observes cause and effect. But it is quite > > > difficult > > > to observe it properly, if you are being dragged around by it, > through > > > clinging. I would say that equanimity helps you cease clinging to > it, in > > > order to observe it. > > > > The object of panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana must be a > > reality appearing at that moment. I am not sure how the observance of > > cause and effect fits into this. > > Well, cause and effect is just my 'western label' for dependent > co-origination. OK. I thought perhaps you were referring to kamma and vipaka. But my comment still applies. I was trying to make the point that understanding 'cause and effect' is not the same as understanding the characteristic of a reality presently appearing. Vipassana involves the latter. It is only this that leads eventually to the eradication of defilements. Our task in this life is to develop understanding at the level of vipassana to the degree possible. To what extent there is understanding of dependent origination is another matter. > > Would you not > > consider the clinging to be a possible possible object for panna? > > Ooh, yes definitely. good point! Any mental factor is an applicable > object Glad you agree, Anders! As I'm sure you know, applicable objects include rupas as well as mental factors and consciousness, something that people sometimes overlook. Everyone wants to know the mind, but no-one seems interested in boring old visible object, sound etc. In fact, we have exactly the same misconceptions (ie. wrong view) about these objects when they appear as we do about mental objects -- we take them for self (not always 'our' self, but self nonetheless), so they need to be known as they are, too. > (personally, I found observing clinging to be very hard to discern > directly > initially though. Don't know how that's like for others). It's there all the time, if only we knew how to recognise it. Again, I think there is often a tendency, for obvious reasons, to want to see the realities that are kusala rather than those that are akusala (eg, the equanimity rather than the clinging). In fact, there is so much of the latter but so little of the former. Having the idea that certain realities are more desirable or more worth knowing about than others can be an obstacle to the arising of awareness of a reality appearing at the present moment. Jon 6640 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Determining consciousness Hi, Herman --- Herman wrote: > Hi all, > > I have scoured the net, and have found very little regarding > votthapana, determining consciousness. Google gave me 40 hits , with > at least a quarter being in languages I did not comprehend. All the > references I read amounted to less than an A4 page of information. > > There are millions of pages on kamma, with myriads of interesting, > sometimes amusing, often conflicting views. Likewise kusala and > akusala. > > But very little on votthapana. This citta is not determined by kamma. > And this citta determines whether what follows is kusala or akusala. > It is the crux of the biscuit, how things are determined. This is > where right view and wrong view arise. What determines the result of > a votthapana-citta? > > If anyone can assist in my quest for freedom, and tell me more about > determining consciousness, I would be grateful. I like your vivid description "the crux of the biscuit". Before you get too frustrated with the apparent lack of information about how to get on top of this chap, let me mention a point that I have just come across in looking for references. Apparently the votthapana citta arises only in cognative processes through one of the 5 sense doors. It does not arise in a cognative process occurring in the mind door independently of the physical senses. This leaves a whole lot of mind door processes that are without this particular citta, but which are still kusala or akusala. So votthapana citta might not be the key to everything after all! Jon. 6641 From: Tori Korshak Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Dear Derek and Cybele, Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu. I too share your admiration and reverence for Ajahn Chah. Metta, Victoria >Dear Derek > > > > >Tadao, I went through a phase 8 or 9 years ago when I read "A Still > >Forest Pool: The Insight Meditation of Achaan Chah" repeatedly. It > >certainly helped me to suffer less. I went to the temple in Thailand > >where his remains are kept purely out of respect for him, to express > >my gratitude for his teachings. > > > >Derek. > >I share your admiration and reverence for Ajahn Chah. >When I read his books there is a disclosure inside me, compassion arises and >understanding of Dhamma becomes experience. >I was attracted to Theravada teachings because of a wonderful book of his >disciple Ajahn Sumeddho - 'The mind and the way'. >'A Still Forest Pool' is a very inspiring book indeed. >He was a great teacher and a great human being. >I bow to his memory. > >Cybele > 6642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Determining consciousness op 19-07-2001 13:35 schreef Herman op Herman: > > I have scoured the net, and have found very little regarding > votthapana, determining consciousness. This citta is not determined by kamma. > And this citta determines whether what follows is kusala or akusala. > It is the crux of the biscuit, how things are determined. This is > where right view and wrong view arise. What determines the result of > a votthapana-citta? Dear Herman, the accumulated kusala or akusala condition the cittas succeeding the votthapanacitta, determining consciousness. This citta is neither cause nor result, it is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta. It is ahetuka, without beautiful roots or unwholesome roots. It is actually the same type of citta as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, but in a sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana, determining. After, for example, seeing-consciousnes, the vipakacitta, citta that is result of kamma, experiences a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, the receiving-consciousness (sampaticchanacitta) that is also vipaka follows in its train, then investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) that is also vipaka, "investigates" the object just for one extremely short moment, and after that votthapanacitta arises, that determines the object just for one extremely short moment, it determines whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas will follow, but that citta itself is kiriyacitta. There is a fixed order of the cittas arising in a process, it is all so fast. It takes its course according to different conditions. If there is wise attention to the object, be it pleasant (desirable) or unpleasant (undesirable), kusala cittas will follow the votthapanacitta. If there is unwise attention, akusala cittas will follow, and this is according to conditions. The same happens in a mind-door process, then the mind-door adverting-consciousness is followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas, depending on accumulated conditions. We have accumulated both akusala and kusala, but there are certain factors that can condition whether kusala citta or akusala citta arises, such as good or bad friends, the surroundings where one lives, the possibility to hear Dhamma, or the absence of this possibility, the development of satipatthana, etc. There is no person who can induce the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta, it all depends on conditions, and the different cittas arise and fall away extremely rapidly. Nina. 6643 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:43am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Yet, in the Satipatthana, it is > mentioned to be (perhaps ambiguously for some people) the only path. Kom, The idea that the Mahasatipa.t.thaana Sutta claims its practices to be the "only" path is based on mistranslating the Pali word ekaayano. Derek. 6644 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:48am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Typo: should be ekayaano, not ekaayano. Derek. 6645 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 3:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Dear Derek Very tricky, you remark on the fact that there was a mistranslation of the pali word and doesn't explain the actual meaning. Very cryptical. :-) Ekayano maggo more than the sole and only way is translated as 'the DIRECT or STRAIGHT path'. A designation of Satipatthana indeed. LOve Cybele >From: "Derek Cameron" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom >Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:43:47 -0000 > >--- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > > Yet, in the Satipatthana, it is > > mentioned to be (perhaps ambiguously for some people) the only path. > >Kom, > >The idea that the Mahasatipa.t.thaana Sutta claims its practices to >be the "only" path is based on mistranslating the Pali word ekaayano. > >Derek. > > 6646 From: Num Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Determining consciousness Dear Nina, I am kind of pretty busy because my vacation is coming. I have to finish couple of things before taking off. Anyway, it's hard to be a lurker. I am not good at that at all. <> Let me ask you about "desirable and undesirable" objects. What's the criteria or definitions of being "desirable and undesirable". Let me give you some examples, I enjoy listen to the music while driving. When I am working or reading, I cannot stand listening to the same song even at the lowest volume. When it's hot, I love the rain to come but when I play tennis outdoor, I do not want it to rain. Umm, let say when I see something attractive, as Cybele post about 20 difficulties for humans, it's hard not to desire or give in. At times, I wish I am not seeing them because lobha is so fast, quick and sticky in grasping the objects. About the blood, some will faint when they see even a drop of blood, I do not really like to see it but when I see it, the blood is the blood. I do not feel it desirable or undesirable. Some people love to see flowering trees in spring, some prefer to see a colorful fall. I feel suffocated wearing tight shirt, some people really like to wear it. So are "desirable and undesirable" quality are objects of individual affection? Is there a neutral object as well? Since all vipaka citta and cetasika as well as all rupa are abyakata dhamma. Desirable or undesirable quality seems to be as part kusala or akusula. I am not clear about this. From my thinking visual object is visual object, like or dislike depends on one's accumulation. Anumodhana in your dedication. Num 6647 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:07am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Dear Derek > Very tricky, you remark on the fact that there was a mistranslation of the > pali word and doesn't explain the actual meaning. > Very cryptical. :-) Cybele, you're teasing me! :-) I was being purposefully brief because I thought we'd already discussed this issue ... but maybe that was on another list? Anyway, ekayaano maggo "one-going path" is a path that goes to only one place -- a path sure to lead to that one place. In the other example of this word in the Pali Canon, it's used to describe a physical path that leads to a pit of burning coals ... in other words, a path that's sure to lead you directly to that one place. I think someone said that it's the commentary on the MN that misleads people into translating it as "only," but I'm not sure about that point, since I don't stay up late a nights reading the commentaries! Derek. 6648 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:13am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Dear Derek, Thanks for pointing that out. The new traslation in the Wisdom Publication comments on this multiplicity as well. kom --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Typo: should be ekayaano, not ekaayano. > > Derek. 6649 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:55am Subject: Meeting Scandinavians Re: Meeting in the 'AgathaChristie ' village ... Dear Herman >> >Cybele, > >Why eat meat before abstaining (carnivale)? The theory of carnivale >is one thing. It has to do with preparation for fasting and >contemplation. > >The practise of carnivale is another thing. Anytime I've been close >enough to see, it has been pure, unadulterated debauchery. Have you ever been in Brazil? If not you cannot understand the meaning of carnival and just dismiss it as 'debauchery', too simplicistic a view labelling it as excessive indulgence on sensual pleasures. Carnival doesn't belong to many cultures, difficult to analyse what is so unfamiliar to you and the show staged for tourists you watch in tv is not the real celebration. Moralistic suppression is not going to sublimate your instincts anyway. I always observed that more somebody try and repress more strong opposition and resistance arise. It's a very simple principle of physics - a force exerted in opposition to an applied force. Politically as ethically I still prefer being an anarchic than a reactionary. > >Which aspect were you hoping to share with the Scandinavians? :-) Well Herman, it depends on their gender actually. I would have interesting sharings with the male gender but then you don't indulge yourself. Too bad... :-)))) Cybele > > >Herman > > >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > > > > > > AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! > > > > I told I am 'openminded' not SILLY! ;-) > > > > > >Never been part of any UFO-sects or anything like that? > > > > Yes and they assigned me the mission of diffuse my Latin blood all >over the > > place and infect everybody with carnival fever particularly >scandinavians. > > ;-) > > > > Cybele > > > 6650 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sanskrit and Pali grammars Hi, Derek: Good luck with your trip to Bangkok. My suggestion regarding your plan to visit to Wat Mahaataat is that there are a fair number of monesteris which Westerns frequent (e.g., Wat Bown), so try these places, too. tadao 6651 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:30am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah From the viewpoint of paramatta dhamma, there is no difference in so-called enverionment between in past and at present. The (past) diciples of the Buddha faced with the same realities which we have been facing at this moment. The most important thing to understand is whether we have a decent understanding that we are sorouned by what we have to verify for 24 hours a day. tadao 6652 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Hi, Cybele: Plese forgive my ignorance of not knowing who he was. (Thailand have prduced many fine meditation monks. At my era in Thailand, it was Archan Maha Boa.) The point I want to make is that if a teacher says that we need not read/listen to the Buddha's words, then, there is a fundamental problem with his teaching. tadao 6653 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Hi, Derek: As I am repeatedly saying, I am not evaluating his entire practice. I am commenting on his comment (from one source) that reading/listening to Buddha's words does not have any siginicance. If his method has helped you have less suffering, that is great. However, then, you have to think by your self very seriously whether you can confidently regard it as the way to eliminate all of your sufferings in a complete manner or not. You CANNOT CURE your headaches just by taking aspirines. Assited by your doctor, you have to find what the real cause of your headaches is, and have to find a medical treatment which can eradicate the underlying cause of the headache. There are a lot of people who are happy with having less headache without finding its cause. However, there are also people who would like to understand the real cause of the headache despite the fact that he/she may continuously suffer from the headache. If one combines both approaches, then, it would be nice. If, however, one think that by taking aspirines every day, one CAN eventually cure one's headache, then, he is fooling himself. tadao 6654 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 3:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sanskrit and Pali grammars Hi, Derek: It shouldn't be the goal of your (possible) ordination. But a good thing with spending a life as a monk is that you will have a lot of your own time. No more (waste of) time for shopping or cooking. You can spend your own time for your meditation or for your Pali study. In realities, monks' life is not devoid of various chores. But, as a foreiger, you will be in a better position of not involving with various monesteric activities which Thai monks are obliged to perform. Besides Pali, you will possible be required to study Thai, learning of which is rather essential if you would like to travel. Do not expect that many Thais speak (decent) English (especially in rural areas). Once you are able to find suitable place(s) and to be sorrounded by entheatic/devoted Buddhists, your life as a monk would be rewardring. But I will warn you that these two conditions are rather hard to come by. tadao 6655 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:16am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana anihilation? (was Consciousness vs. Nibbbana - Final round! Anders and Erik Sorry to be coming in late (just when you’re ready to drop the subject, Anders). Having briefly checked the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (Bh. Bodhi translation – CMA), I think there may be some confusion between the question of whether Nibbana is a reality and therefore capable of being experienced, and its attribute as the ‘signless’. To summarise what I found on this issue— 1. Nibbana is classified as one of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). Ultimate realities are distinguished from concepts in that they exist by reason of their own intrinsic nature (sabhava). 2. Nibbana is the object of each of the 8 supramundane cittas (ie. the path and fruition cittas of the 4 stages of enlightenment) 3. Nibbana has one intrinsic nature (sabhava), which is that of being the unconditioned deathless element totally transcendent to the conditioned world. 4. Nibbana has 3 different aspects-- 4.1 It is called the void (sunnata) because it is devoid of greed, hatred, and delusion, and because it is devoid of all that is conditioned. 4.2 It is called signless (animitta) because it is free from the signs of greed, etc., and free from the signs of all conditioned things. 4.3 It is called desireless (appanihita) because it is free from the hankering of greed, etc., and because it is not desired by craving. 5. Nibbana is excluded from the category of the 5 aggregates because it lacks differentiation (such as past, present , future). [References: CMA Ch I, #2, #26-28; Ch VI, #31; Ch VII, #40] I think this represents the orthodox Theravadin doctrine. Jon --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 9:57 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana anihilation? (was Consciousness > vs. > Nibbbana - Final round! > >Your contention dones't sound at all ignorant to me. Nor to acharyas > like Master Vasubandhu, who also questioned how Nibbana, lacking all > marks, can possibly be "cognized" by citta, which by definition has > sanna as a component among the sabba-citta-sadharana cetasikas. How > can sanna perform its function when there is nothing to mark, Nibbana > being unconditioned? I haev yet to see any satisfactory explanation > of this, and yet if we read what Khun Sujin says: > >"Cakkhu-vinnana-citta does not arise with lobha, dosa, moha or any > other sobhana-cetasika. Cakkhu-vinnana-citta arises with only seven > cetasika, namely phassa-cetasika, vedana-cetasika, sanna-cetasika, > cetana-cetasika, ekaggata-cetasika, jivitindriya-cetasika and > manasikara-cetasika. These seven cetasika are the sabba-citta- > sadharana-cetasika, the cetasika that arises with all citta. The > citta cannot arise without these seven cetasika. No matter which > kind of citta, akusala-, kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, lokuttara-citta > or any citta whatever, would have to arise concurrently with these > seven cetasika. These sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika are the > annasamana-cetasika, or cetasika that conform with whatever they > arise with. Concurring with akusala-citta, the seven sabba-citta- > sadharana-cetasika are akusala; with kusala-citta, they are kusala > etc." > >To recap the key point here: "No matter which kind of citta, akusala- > , kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, ***lokuttara-citta*** or ***any citta > whatever***, would have to arise concurrently with these seven > cetasika." > >Very clearly lokuttara cittas have sanna using this definition from > the Abhidhamma. What I'd like to understand is how the Abhidhamma can > possibly support this contention, because by reason alone it entails > the absdurd consequence that Nibbana is somehow conditioned! How > could it be otherwise if sanna is a part of the mix? Sanna by > definition requires someTHING to mark, and the act of "marking" > immediately creates a this/that, subject/object (Nibbana as object, > citta as subject) dichotomy. And nowhere is there any "mark" (other > than anatta) that applies to Nibbana, and how can one possibly > perceiev the existence of a mere absence of greed, hatred, and > delusion? Given there are NO, as in, zero, zip, nada, nil, kein, > nichivo conventional marks that pertain to Nibbana, how can sanna > possibly perform any function of "marking" the Nibbaba as arammana > without any samutti aspect there to mark? Can sanna possibly mark > what doesn't even exist conventionally? > >I really like your probing this issue. It's something I've always > >questioned in terms of the notion that lokuttara cittas > >somehow "cognize" Nibbana. > > I have to say that the Mahayanist scriptures are a lot more clear on > this > subject than the Pali Canon (I guess that's why they wrote them). I > thought > the subject was settled with the sutta quotation I provided about > consciousness without feature and end, being unconditioned, but that > wasn't > really accepted since unestablished consciousness as Nibbana is > mentioned > only in two suttas. Well, I have let my view of all this be known and > this > is the last participation that I will make on this subject. > > 6656 From: gayan Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:34am Subject: Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah dear cybele, > You live in paradise. Serendipy Island! ;-) Yeah, true to some point, only realised it after i started globetrotting.. > I love Sri Lanka Gayan, I lived in Kandy and I spent plenty of time in > Nilambe high up among tea plantations near Galaha. > There I took the refuges and precepts with Ven. Dhammika. What a great experience! You surely must have gathered much momentum for the "slow upward spiral"( as robert beautifully put , if i remember correctly) You are one lucky 'sacca gavesi'(truth seeker) > Have you ever been there? Sadly no, :0( , so close yet so far But most of my friends have been there, and they always explain the beauty and calmness there. >Did you meet Godwin Samaratne? Again, unfortunately ,no. But him as a kalyana mitta and his efforts are inspirations to many. I wish i had found refuge in the dhamma much earlier in my life, so I would have had the drive to meet the people I admire. But as we undertand , these things are uncontrollable. wish you a happy journey in dhamma rgds 6657 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] note to jon and nina Bruce --- bruce wrote: > thanks for this reply jon -- yes, this does help, especially your > wrap-it-up description of my "condsideration" albatross...i hope to ask > khun sujin for further clarification if i get the chance.... > > *intending* to have awareness is not, er, intentional, at least in my > daily > sitting and noticing throughout the day...it's probably there but in > that > pesky realm everyone refers to as "subtle"..."intention" is the seed for > a > whole new series of questions...if it's been discussed before, though, > perhaps you or someone else could give me message #s or dates or subject > titles to search? I have just had a quick look in the 'Useful Posts' section of our website (link copied below) but could not see anything under 'intention'. However, you may want to try one or two of the posts mentioned there. Otherwise we look forward to your report or any discussion on this subject with Khun Sujin! Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POST%20LINKS 6658 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:17pm Subject: Re: Sanskrit and Pali grammars Dear Tadao, Thank you for your kind words. "Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers" --- William Wordsworth Derek. 6659 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 1:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity Mike Thanks for this sutta reference - very apposite, as usual. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > I'd like to thank the contributors to the equanimity > thread, especially Kom--I had no idea how many > different connotations 'upekkha' has in the texts and > always just sort of took them all in in a sort of > vague, general sense (as I usually do). > > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > I think we have to be careful here. The so-called > > practice of developing equanimity may in fact not be > > kusala of any kind at all. If it stems from a > > desire to have less lobha and dosa (whether > > because of the belief that lobha and dosa are > > antithetical to the development of understanding or > > for any other reason), it is bound to be akusala. > > It is just an aspect of the desire for more > > kusala/understanding or less akusala. I am not > > saying this is so in your case, but I mention it > > because one often finds references which seem to > > suggest that this is part of the way of practice > > taught by the Buddha. > > I did want to add one more citation: > > "'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be > pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in > reference to what was it said? When one knows of a > feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, > unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful > mental qualities decline,' that sort of equanimity is > not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of > equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful > mental qualities decline, and skillful mental > qualities increase,' that sort of equanimity is to be > pursued. And this sort of equanimity may be > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free > of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the > latter is the more refined. 'Equanimity is of two > sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' > Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it > said." > > Digha Nikaya 21 > Sakka-pañha Sutta > Sakka's Questions > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn21.html > > mike Yes, if only we were able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala by knowing the characteristic of each, rather than only being able to guess at it by thinking in terms of the situation (eg 'I'm studying dhamma, so it must be kusala'). Thanks again, Mike. Jon 6660 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah - Tadao Dear Tadao > >Hi, Cybele: >Plese forgive my ignorance of not knowing who he was. >(Thailand have produced many fine meditation monks. >At my era in Thailand, it was Archan Maha Boa.) Ajahn Chan is well known and venerated in Thailand since long, long time I can assure you. The Forest Tradition is not a novelty. Obviously for who cares to know about it. >The point I want to make is that if a teacher says that >we need not read/listen to the Buddha's words, then, >there is a fundamental problem with his teaching. >tadao Tadao, that you judge all the teaching of Ajahn Chan for a short story you read about him it doesn't seems to me very penetrative observation of reality. However he never stated that you don't need to read/listen to the Buddha's words; you failed the interpretation of the story, what he meant is not conceptual thought but LISTENING WITH YOUR HEART. There is a fundamental problem with studying Buddha's teachings and being judgemental and heedless in your thought and speech. That any person express so lightly an opinion about somebody they know nothing is quite UNREALISTIC and unmindful. Why we have to be so rigid about the path? There are many approaches for different personalities, temperaments and this is being faithful to Buddha's teachings the same. Articulate words is so simple, don't tell me, I've lived on it but being mindful before we spit sentences is another issue. I know it as well, being of impulsive nature. Rigidity lead to things like Taliban. And what I am declaring is not out of antipathy for you but fruit of my right or wrong understanding on this subject. Metta Cybele 6661 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 5:22pm Subject: thailand/west --- ppp wrote: . Do not expect that many Thais speak > (decent) English (especially in rural areas). Once you are > able to find suitable place(s) and to be sorrounded > by entheatic/devoted Buddhists, your life as > a monk would be rewardring. ______ Thanks Tadao, Your presence on this group is so valuable. I was never a monk but can certainly verify the truth of the enthusiam and genuine understanding of many Thai's. I know of the wrongviews by a few; however, it seems I meet so many who have keen insight. Thai's who see the advantage of learning the deep aspects of Dhamma can well see that there is really no one. So when discussing Dhamma with them there are always questions and comments that aim to wipe away further the idea of self. It seems rarer to find this in the west; often even the most basic understanding of anatta is disputed; and so the same aspects have to be repeated again and again. This made me think of Bruce's recent comment on how the discussions on dsg are confusing and how he is looking forward to Thailand; and this is one of the conditions the Buddha gave for right view (residing in a suitable place where true Dhamma can be heard). It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma there are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this moment conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and practice are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held self-view. WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - not realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that any moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while no moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if there is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', they think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their own heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is arising now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. As this is gradually known a profound detachment - from taking any moment as mine- develops. (detachment from sense objects comes later) I guess i've visited thailand almost thirty times, and every time I'm humbled by the degree of confidence (saddha) and wisdom(panna) so many Thai's. robert 6662 From: Herman Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:13pm Subject: Re: Determining consciousness Dear Nina and Jon, ( no intention to exclude others I am unaware of) Thank you sincerely for the time and effort taken to answer the question. I often feel that I lack time. There are so many things which beg for attention, and the days consist of choosing this, rejecting that as objects for further consideration. Thank you again. Herman --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 19-07-2001 13:35 Herman wrote: > > > > > > I have scoured the net, and have found very little regarding > > votthapana, determining consciousness. This citta is not determined by kamma. > > And this citta determines whether what follows is kusala or akusala. > > It is the crux of the biscuit, how things are determined. This is > > where right view and wrong view arise. What determines the result of > > a votthapana-citta? > > Dear Herman, the accumulated kusala or akusala condition the cittas > succeeding the votthapanacitta, determining consciousness. This citta is > neither cause nor result, it is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta. It is > ahetuka, without beautiful roots or unwholesome roots. It is actually the > same type of citta as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, but in a > sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana, determining. > After, for example, seeing-consciousnes, the vipakacitta, citta that is > result of kamma, experiences a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, the > receiving-consciousness (sampaticchanacitta) that is also vipaka follows in > its train, then investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) that is also > vipaka, "investigates" the object just for one extremely short moment, and > after that votthapanacitta arises, that determines the object just for one > extremely short moment, it determines whether kusala cittas or akusala > cittas will follow, but that citta itself is kiriyacitta. There is a fixed > order of the cittas arising in a process, it is all so fast. It takes its > course according to different conditions. If there is wise attention to the > object, be it pleasant (desirable) or unpleasant (undesirable), kusala > cittas will follow the votthapanacitta. If there is unwise attention, > akusala cittas will follow, and this is according to conditions. The same > happens in a mind-door process, then the mind-door adverting- consciousness > is followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas, depending on accumulated > conditions. We have accumulated both akusala and kusala, but there are > certain factors that can condition whether kusala citta or akusala citta > arises, such as good or bad friends, the surroundings where one lives, the > possibility to hear Dhamma, or the absence of this possibility, the > development of satipatthana, etc. > There is no person who can induce the arising of kusala citta or akusala > citta, it all depends on conditions, and the different cittas arise and fall > away extremely rapidly. > Nina. 6663 From: Herman Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:38pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Kom, sorry if I emberrass you, but you are a legend Herman 6664 From: bruce Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Determining consciousness nina this is so clearly explained! many thanks... bruce At 19:39 2001/07/20 +0200, you wrote: > op 19-07-2001 13:35 schreef Herman op > Herman: > > > > > > I have scoured the net, and have found very little regarding > > votthapana, determining consciousness. This citta is not determined by kamma. > > And this citta determines whether what follows is kusala or akusala. > > It is the crux of the biscuit, how things are determined. This is > > where right view and wrong view arise. What determines the result of > > a votthapana-citta? > > Dear Herman, the accumulated kusala or akusala condition the cittas > succeeding the votthapanacitta, determining consciousness. This citta is > neither cause nor result, it is kiriyacitta, inoperative citta. It is > ahetuka, without beautiful roots or unwholesome roots. It is actually the > same type of citta as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, but in a > sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana, determining. > After, for example, seeing-consciousnes, the vipakacitta, citta that is > result of kamma, experiences a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, the > receiving-consciousness (sampaticchanacitta) that is also vipaka follows in > its train, then investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) that is also > vipaka, "investigates" the object just for one extremely short moment, and > after that votthapanacitta arises, that determines the object just for one > extremely short moment, it determines whether kusala cittas or akusala > cittas will follow, but that citta itself is kiriyacitta. There is a fixed > order of the cittas arising in a process, it is all so fast. It takes its > course according to different conditions. If there is wise attention to the > object, be it pleasant (desirable) or unpleasant (undesirable), kusala > cittas will follow the votthapanacitta. If there is unwise attention, > akusala cittas will follow, and this is according to conditions. The same > happens in a mind-door process, then the mind-door adverting-consciousness > is followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas, depending on accumulated > conditions. We have accumulated both akusala and kusala, but there are > certain factors that can condition whether kusala citta or akusala citta > arises, such as good or bad friends, the surroundings where one lives, the > possibility to hear Dhamma, or the absence of this possibility, the > development of satipatthana, etc. > There is no person who can induce the arising of kusala citta or akusala > citta, it all depends on conditions, and the different cittas arise and fall > away extremely rapidly. > Nina. > 6666 From: bruce Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Considering hi nina thanks also for this very appropriate quotation, although i must admit that i'm stumped by the exhortation at the end to "apply" and "be aware", as though there were a choice in the matter.... bruce At 19:15 2001/07/19 +0200, you wrote: > op 18-07-2001 18:42 schreef bruce op <>: > > > hi jon and nina > > > > apologies for not following up on your responses to my "listening to and > > considering" query a long way back there (before you left, actually > > jon)...conditions didn't allow a good response (iow: i was incredibly > > busy!) though i have been lurking all along... > > > > i have to admit i still don't undertand what "considering" the Dhamma > > entails....i understand (only conceptually of course) that there is no one > > doing the considering....does this mean that the considering just arises > > and is beyond our control? is it a paramattha dhamma? or is it just > > papanca?...or can it be both at different times? is considering the Dhamma > > simply another way of saying "noting realities as they ppear at the six > > doors"? > > > > for that matter, is "listening to the Dhamma" something we can do > > willingly? "listening" seems to bespeak willing and control....perhaps a > > better word would be "hearing", which arises, as opposed to listening, > > which seems forced....reminds me of a Sayadaw here in japan who liked to > > remind me: "no listening -- just hearing"....he would also say the same > > with looking/seeing, which made me wonder if the idea of a controlling self > > wasn't something that required prepositions for those verbs, ie looking > > *at*, listening *to*....all makes me think that we can neither decide to > > listen to the Dhamma, nor consider the Dhamma.... > > Dear Bruce, let me quote from Alan Driver: > right way as much as conditions will allow. There will be studying of Dhamma > in the right wat as much as conditions will allow, no more. It is not self. > Heraing now is not self. Studying is not self. Right attention is not self. > So, if we think that"we" can study and "we" can listen, we are misleading > ourselves. We can be aware while studying and listening, in order to learn > that such moments are not self. The more we listen in the right way, if > there are condiitons for it, the more will we understand the difference > between just thinking and being aware. We will understand the difference > between trying to control realities and just letting awareness arise > naturally and being aware of what appears for one brief moment. Right > understanding develops only little by little.... Through listening to the > Dhamma and studying it, considering it carefully, intellectual understanding > is being accumulated. In this way conditions are being built up for the > arising of right awareness of one reality at a time. We cannot induce the > arising of right awareness, it all depends on the understanding which has > been accumulated. At the moment of awareness of a nama or rupa understanding > of its true characteristic can gradually be developed. This is a kind of > study, not the study of the level of intellectual understanding, but study > of realities while there is awareness... Sudying and listening is an > essential condition for awareness. One should consider what one hears and > apply it, and be aware.> > End quote. Maybe this answers your questions. You could call it listening or > hearing, it does not matter. Nina. > 6667 From: Herman Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:23pm Subject: Meeting Scandinavians Re: Meeting in the 'AgathaChristie ' village ... Dear Cybele, I have never been to Brazil. In Holland, where I was born, the catholic south of the country like to kick their heels up before Lent. It normally consists of getting extremely drunk ,and the behaviours that follow on from being mindless. Carnival is a roman catholic ritual. There are many catholic cultures around the world. I do not marvel at any of their combined wisdoms. Cybele's fourth law of thermodynamics may not get the same acceptance as Newtons first three. Keep trying, anyway :-) Why limit yourself to males? Is this some sort of moralistic repression? :-) Herman --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Herman > > >> > >Cybele, > > > >Why eat meat before abstaining (carnivale)? The theory of carnivale > >is one thing. It has to do with preparation for fasting and > >contemplation. > > > >The practise of carnivale is another thing. Anytime I've been close > >enough to see, it has been pure, unadulterated debauchery. > > Have you ever been in Brazil? > If not you cannot understand the meaning of carnival and just dismiss it as > 'debauchery', too simplicistic a view labelling it as excessive indulgence > on sensual pleasures. > Carnival doesn't belong to many cultures, difficult to analyse what is so > unfamiliar to you and the show staged for tourists you watch in tv is not > the real celebration. > Moralistic suppression is not going to sublimate your instincts anyway. > I always observed that more somebody try and repress more strong opposition > and resistance arise. > It's a very simple principle of physics - a force exerted in opposition to > an applied force. > Politically as ethically I still prefer being an anarchic than a > reactionary. > > > > >Which aspect were you hoping to share with the Scandinavians? :-) > > Well Herman, it depends on their gender actually. > I would have interesting sharings with the male gender but then you don't > indulge yourself. Too bad... :-)))) > > Cybele > > > > > >Herman > > > > 6668 From: Erik Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:25pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Anyway, ekayaano maggo "one-going path" is a path that > goes to only one place -- a path sure to lead to that one place. In > the other example of this word in the Pali Canon, it's used to > describe a physical path that leads to a pit of burning coals ... in > other words, a path that's sure to lead you directly to that one > place. I think someone said that it's the commentary on the MN that > misleads people into translating it as "only," but I'm not sure about > that point, since I don't stay up late a nights reading the > commentaries! Derek, this is something I find VERY interesting. When I first joined DSG I heard it stated that satipatthana--the way described in the Satipatthana Sutta--is the ONLY way to awakening, to the point it sounded very nearly like a dogma to these ears. Not that I was in the mood to dispute it since that's pretty much the same training I've had (from a slightly different angle, but the same nonetheless). Yet anytime I hear "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY" regarding any aspect of the path I only recall the last of the Four Bonds that wrongly believes "This alone is truth..." I'm not disputing the necessity of insight, and yet, I wonder if it really IS the only way. Perhaps there are other ways as well. I mean, the Buddha NEVER went further in his own statements (to my limited knowledge at least) than saying other teachers' systems and teachings may not (MAY, not dogmatically WON'T)) to lead to the same result as the Buddha's way. And that leaves things somewhat open, as I see it. I think of, for example, Mahavira (Jain), and from my very cursory readings of Jainism it almost, to my very uneducated (on Jainism) ear on this that sounds almost as if he attained a status equal to that of arahat. Then we have some Hindu sects (I can hear the stakes being rough-hewn and the kindling being collected even now), who have some awfully similar-sounding teachings to what you find in Buddhism (neti neti, anyone?). If you read the Jewish sage Maimonides' teachings on the Kabbalistic Ayin Sof (Infinite Emptiness), you see he says explicitly that the moer nergations, the nearer one is to G-d. And forget Taoism, "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao" is nothing if not a direc teaching on relinquishing of all views, at least as I interpret that very first verse of the Tao te Ching. Know well this question comes from someone whose own (Gelug) lineage had an unfortunate track-record of literally burning down the monasteries of any sects in Tibet who dared even hint at something akin to "mind" as some truly existent thing when speaking of emptiness/anatta. The further I read into other traditions, the less certain I am the Buddhists are the only ones who've nailed it, given the vagaries of language and the total impossibility of transmitting the essence of Nibbana using names & terms. Even in Zen, for example, you hear talk of one's "Original Face" (which I think fits in with some f what Ansders has been talking about if I read his points as he intended them) and even, Indra forbid, Self! Even though all Zennists adamantly deny self-existence and remain in perfect accord on this point with all other systems of Dharma (this so-called "Self" in this case has nothing to do with atta, not being "truly" or "inherently" existent). Does anyone else here have any thoughts on this? If so, I'd be quite curious to hear other interpretations. 6669 From: Erik Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:36pm Subject: Meeting Scandinavians Re: Meeting in the 'AgathaChristie ' village ... --- Herman wrote: > Dear Cybele, > > I have never been to Brazil. In Holland, where I was born, the > catholic south of the country like to kick their heels up before > Lent. It normally consists of getting extremely drunk ,and the > behaviours that follow on from being mindless. > > Carnival is a roman catholic ritual. As far as I know, Carnaval is a pagan ritual co-opted by Catholics in the same way Christians borrowwed a paagn ritual for Christmas. Regardless, I find such traditions quite refreshing. I particularly like the spirit of Purim, the Jewish holiday where all roles are reversed and one is enjoined to make fun of the most solemn aspects of the tradition. Then again, we Buddhists are way ahead of the game, and need no special occasions for such tomfoolery. Which reminds me of an amusing little story. I recall one time my lama, Khen Rinpoche (abbot of Tibet's Sera Mey monastery and as far as I know the highest-ranking Gelugpa lama in North America), on his way into the shrine room with one of those little battery-powered laugh-boxes creating a horrible tinny little cackle. I could not figure out what the commotion was from afar because I couldn't hear what was going on, but I could see everyone nearly falling all over themselves in spastic laughter as he ambled slowly by (with the sea-captain's gait of a seventy-eight-year-old meditator), until he came near enough for me to get an earful. I just about peed my pants. To this day I still can't suppress a giggle thinking of that incident. 6670 From: Herman Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: thailand/west Dear Robert, The only things I know about Thailand are the things I perceive in the transit lounge, and the things I read in the press. I do not doubt that in the circles you move you find the things as you describe in your post. My understanding of some of the prevalent conditions in Thailand is, and I fully accept that this could be entirely flawed, that in order to score drugs or watch pornography, you go to a temple. And the justice system summarily executes people. Buddhist nations have no spectacular place in world history. I think to some extent the notion of anatta allows such phenomena as the killing fields of Cambodia and the annexation of Tibet. I know that in some Buddhist quarters, Ghandi is ridiculed because he acted. Why act, when it is all impermanent, without self? Anyway, for me a verifiable reality each moment is that this body acts to preserve and enhance itself. Breath in , breath out. Eat, drink, drive car very precisely in the middle of the lane so as not to kill this body. The concepts that fly around between the ears soon cease when an idiot doesn't give way to you at the roundabout. With metta Herman --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > --- ppp wrote: > . Do not expect that many Thais speak > > (decent) English (especially in rural areas). Once you are > > able to find suitable place(s) and to be sorrounded > > by entheatic/devoted Buddhists, your life as > > a monk would be rewardring. > ______ > Thanks Tadao, > Your presence on this group is so valuable. > I was never a monk but can certainly verify the truth of the > enthusiam and genuine understanding of many Thai's. I know of > the wrongviews by a few; however, it seems I meet so many who > have keen insight. > Thai's who see the advantage of learning the deep aspects of > Dhamma can well see that there is really no one. So when > discussing Dhamma with them there are always questions and > comments that aim to wipe away further the idea of self. It > seems rarer to find this in the west; often even the most basic > understanding of anatta is disputed; and so the same aspects > have to be repeated again and again. > This made me think of Bruce's recent comment on how the > discussions on dsg are confusing and how he is looking forward > to Thailand; and this is one of the conditions the Buddha gave > for right view (residing in a suitable place where true Dhamma > can be heard). > It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma there > are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this moment > conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and practice > are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held self-view. > WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - not > realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that any > moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while no > moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if there > is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', they > think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their own > heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is arising > now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is > really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. As this > is gradually known a profound detachment - from taking any > moment as mine- develops. (detachment from sense objects comes > later) > I guess i've visited thailand almost thirty times, and every > time I'm humbled by the degree of confidence (saddha) and > wisdom(panna) so many Thai's. > robert > 6671 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 8:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear herman, All good points as usual. I was being a little provacative with my somewhat nationalistic post. Comments below: --- Herman wrote: > Dear Robert, > > The only things I know about Thailand are the things I > perceive in > the transit lounge, and the things I read in the press. I do > not > doubt that in the circles you move you find the things as you > describe in your post. ------ Actually I think this is it. I am lucky enough to have some rather fine friends in Thailand - and somehow or other most of the things that happen tend to be rather pleasant.(and I do see things through rose-tinted glasses at times) > My understanding of some of the prevalent conditions in > Thailand is, > and I fully accept that this could be entirely flawed, that in > order > to score drugs or watch pornography, you go to a temple. And > the > justice system summarily executes people. ______ Ha ha. I haven't heard about the drugs or porno in temples yet but I suppose that will come. Executions actually take years before they are carried out (firing squad, i think or maybe machine gun) and are often rescinded on the Kings orders > > Buddhist nations have no spectacular place in world history. I > think > to some extent the notion of anatta allows such phenomena as > the > killing fields of Cambodia and the annexation of Tibet. _______ This I am not sure of: Pol pot went to France and inbibed some heavy Marxist doctrine before coming back to cambodia. And wasn't Tibet China? Or do you mean anatta lets people do as they please with one? I know > that > in some Buddhist quarters, Ghandi is ridiculed because he > acted. Why > act, when it is all impermanent, without self? ______ I think we act as much as ever - (I still do) act up, that is_ > > Anyway, for me a verifiable reality each moment is that this > body > acts to preserve and enhance itself. Breath in , breath out. > Eat, > drink, drive car very precisely in the middle of the lane so > as not > to kill this body. The concepts that fly around between the > ears soon > cease when an idiot doesn't give way to you at the roundabout. ------- Yes, I think considering anatta doesn't make one more careless though. Anatta is about insight into conditionality and so one will still realise that getting run over by a truck is a condition for pain and worse. You make a great point though - anatta can be misinterpreted as license to do nothing. best wishes robert > > Herman > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > --- ppp wrote: > > . Do not expect that many Thais speak > > > (decent) English (especially in rural areas). Once you are > > > able to find suitable place(s) and to be sorrounded > > > by entheatic/devoted Buddhists, your life as > > > a monk would be rewardring. > > ______ > > Thanks Tadao, > > Your presence on this group is so valuable. > > I was never a monk but can certainly verify the truth of the > > enthusiam and genuine understanding of many Thai's. I know > of > > the wrongviews by a few; however, it seems I meet so many > who > > have keen insight. > > Thai's who see the advantage of learning the deep aspects of > > Dhamma can well see that there is really no one. So when > > discussing Dhamma with them there are always questions and > > comments that aim to wipe away further the idea of self. It > > seems rarer to find this in the west; often even the most > basic > > understanding of anatta is disputed; and so the same aspects > > have to be repeated again and again. > > This made me think of Bruce's recent comment on how the > > discussions on dsg are confusing and how he is looking > forward > > to Thailand; and this is one of the conditions the Buddha > gave > > for right view (residing in a suitable place where true > Dhamma > > can be heard). > > It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma > there > > are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this > moment > > conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and > practice > > are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held > self-view. > > WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - > not > > realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that > any > > moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while > no > > moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if > there > > is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', > they > > think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their > own > > heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is > arising > > now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is > > really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. As > this > > is gradually known a profound detachment - from taking any > > moment as mine- develops. (detachment from sense objects > comes > > later) > > I guess i've visited thailand almost thirty times, and every > > time I'm humbled by the degree of confidence (saddha) and > > wisdom(panna) so many Thai's. > > robert > > > 6672 From: bruce Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 8:39pm Subject: Ajaan Chaa hi cybele and tadao pardon me for butting in you two, but i really think you're *both* missing the point of that Ajaan Chaa quotation... we must listen to/hear the Dhamma, *and* consider it for awareness to arise...this is where his theatrics with the heart/mind come in...i don't think he was dismissing the scriptures per se, but was rather criticising a purely text-based study without studying the present moment.... my problem w/the Ven Chaa is that he's just a bit too prone to pithy maxims...maybe there's something lost in his translation into english, but so much of what he says sounds completely zenny and precious, like haiku in english (they *never* work!)...a lot of westerners seem to like both (engl haiku and Ajaan Chaa) so i guess there's no accounting for taste/accumulations... btw, tadao, he was a student of Ajaan Mun Buridat, same as Ajaan Maha Bua...he attracted a *big* devotional following, including a lot of the westerners who are now teaching "vipassana" in the west.... bruce ps: wonder who the Abidhamma woman in the story was? a little too close to home, anyone? 6673 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajaan Chaa Hi Bruce > >hi cybele and tadao > >pardon me for butting in you two, but i really think you're *both* missing >the point of that Ajaan Chaa quotation... > >we must listen to/hear the Dhamma, *and* consider it for awareness to >arise...this is where his theatrics with the heart/mind come in...i don't >think he was dismissing the scriptures per se, but was rather criticising > >purely text-based study without studying the present moment.... Well Bruce sorry but this was most evident and a bit of common sense can figure it out. Indeed this I was trying to explain Tadao; he was never against the tests but on how you interpret them, if you indeed 'LISTENING' or purely conceptualizing. What else can you infer apart this? > >my problem w/the Ven Chaa is that he's just a bit too prone to pithy >maxims...maybe there's something lost in his translation into english, but >so much of what he says sounds completely zenny and precious, like haiku in >english (they *never* work!)...a lot of westerners seem to like both >(englhaiku and Ajaan Chaa) so i guess there's no accounting for >taste/accumulations... Well what I appreciate is his simplicity and straighforwardeness. Love Cybele 6674 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting Scandinavians Re: Meeting in the 'AgathaChristie ' village ... Dear Herman >>Dear Cybele, > >I have never been to Brazil. In Holland, where I was born, the >catholic south of the country like to kick their heels up before >Lent. It normally consists of getting extremely drunk ,and the >behaviours that follow on from being mindless. We are mindless as well in Brazil but the ritual has a psychological and ritual relevance very connected with our culture where catholic religion ineherited from the missionaries is merged with animism and tribal beliefs from the African slaves. It's a cathartic ritual. > >Carnival is a roman catholic ritual. There are many catholic cultures >around the world. I do not marvel at any of their combined wisdoms. Good, openmindness is very much 'kusala'. :-) > >Cybele's fourth law of thermodynamics may not get the same acceptance >as Newtons first three. Keep trying, anyway :-) Translate sweetheart, my knowledge of Newton is only worse than my cooking and I can tell you my cooking is cathastrofic. > >Why limit yourself to males? Is this some sort of moralistic >repression? :-) Why? Because I am heterosexual but no prejudices. Now you should ask me why I am so sure of being heterosexual considering mostly I base my knowledge on actual experience... ;-) Love Cybele 6675 From: Tori Korshak Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west At 05:28 AM 7/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >Dear herman, > >I know > > that > > in some Buddhist quarters, Ghandi is ridiculed because he > > acted. Why > > act, when it is all impermanent, without self? >______ >I think we act as much as ever - (I still do) act up, that is_ > > > > >------- >Yes, I think considering anatta doesn't make one more careless >though. Anatta is about insight into conditionality and so one >will still realise that getting run over by a truck is a >condition for pain and worse. Thank you! This makes sense-not waxing so mystical here! >You make a great point though - anatta can be misinterpreted as >license to do nothing. But Robert, can you do nothing? >best wishes >robert >Metta, Victoria > 6676 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:22pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Erik Hi, Erik, Yes, this is an interesting issue. I think there are two distinct questions. Question 1: Is the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta the only way? Firstly, as I said, ekaayano maggo (the claim it makes for itself) doesn't really mean only way. But secondly, it's obviously not even the only way taught in the Pali Canon. The way the Buddha himself practiced included concentration meditation (samaadhi), following which he directed his purified and concentrated mind to knowledge of three things -- (i) his past lives, (ii) the passing away and reappearance of beings, and (iii) the destruction of the aasava-s. That was his method. How many people today even mention that that was how he practiced, let alone follow it? Even the most basic statement of the Buddha's prescription for practice, the Noble Eightfold Path, includes sammaa samaadhi (right concentration) as well as sammaa sati (right mindfulness). Question 2: Is Theravaada Buddhism the only way? On that one, it seems that for me personally Theravaada Buddhism is the best way, the one that's most suited to me. But I wouldn't say it was the only way for everyone everywhere. I've found wise sayings of Jesus, and in the Bhagavad Giitaa, and so on. And in real life I've come across some wonderful teachers, not all of whom have been Buddhists. Derek. 6677 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Dear Kom By the way I am going to reply you mail but as is quite loooonnnng and articulated I need time to observe properly this reality of your mail. And energy to write a reply. Have been a bit in 'could not be bothered' low mood. This applies to Rob and Erik (the wicked)as well. LOve Cybele >From: Herman >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom >Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:38:13 -0000 > >Kom, sorry if I embarrass you, but you are a legend > > >Herman > > 6678 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Tori, Thanks for the insightful question. Let me try below. --- Tori Korshak wrote: > > >------- > >Yes, I think considering anatta doesn't make one more > careless > >though. Anatta is about insight into conditionality and so > one > >will still realise that getting run over by a truck is a > >condition for pain and worse. > > Thank you! This makes sense-not waxing so mystical here! > > >You make a great point though - anatta can be misinterpreted > as > >license to do nothing. > > But Robert, can you do nothing? > _________ Right. So we act in various ways depending on different factors. Even we try to do nothing - it is still an action. I think knowing about conditions and having understanding doesn't make one so different in some ways . We can look at the texts and see sotapanna who had wives, loved high living, cried and so on. Even they had no view about self but still they couldn't control to stop lust or anger arising at times. Some were even still soldiers - except that they couldn't kill ( they could act very martial though). On the other hand we see lay sotapannas who lived very simple celibate lives too. I think everyone has unique accumulations and so only gradually can we find out the lifestyle really suited to us. For some a very meditative, austere life, detached from other people is highly beneficial. But this may not suit all. I guess I fit somewhere out on the hedonistic fringes (for a sincere buddhist). What I think (could be wrong) is that it is best not to make rules but rather to find out for ourselves what fits. And while figuring out what is right we can be learning more about conditions. > best wishes robert 6679 From: bruce Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] note to jon and nina i'll try to do a search before i go to see if anything hs been written on intention...may give up halfway, though, as these yahoo archive searches can take forever to yield nothing.... bruce At 13:11 2001/07/21 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > --- bruce wrote: > thanks for this reply jon > -- yes, this does help, especially your > > wrap-it-up description of my "condsideration" albatross...i hope to ask > > khun sujin for further clarification if i get the chance.... > > > > *intending* to have awareness is not, er, intentional, at least in my > > daily > > sitting and noticing throughout the day...it's probably there but in > > that > > pesky realm everyone refers to as "subtle"..."intention" is the seed for > > a > > whole new series of questions...if it's been discussed before, though, > > perhaps you or someone else could give me message #s or dates or subject > > titles to search? > > I have just had a quick look in the 'Useful Posts' section of our website > (link copied below) but could not see anything under 'intention'. > However, you may want to try one or two of the posts mentioned there. > Otherwise we look forward to your report or any discussion on this subject > with Khun Sujin! > > Jon > 6680 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Dear Cybele, Then, my response probably will yet be longer!. By the time we settle with this thread, it will take each of us weeks to respond... I guess the electronic forum is really helpful, but is really no match to discuss in person. I hope you find peace in writing the response. kom --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Kom > > By the way I am going to reply you mail but as is quite loooonnnng and > articulated I need time to observe properly this reality of your mail. > And energy to write a reply. > Have been a bit in 'could not be bothered' low mood. > This applies to Rob and Erik (the wicked)as well. > > LOve > > Cybele 6681 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] thailand/west Dear Rob My goodness your image of Thailand is pretty idyllic. I wish you could show me all this picturesque Thailand and mostly introduce me to all this insightful people you met there. And is curious that you consider Buddhist countries suitable to the knowledge of Dhamma. Thailand is one of the most corrupted countries in Southeast Asia, drugs, prostitution, bribery and the population buddhists by birth, worship Buddha as a God, DO NOT meditate, Abhidhamma they have no idea of what you are talking about and mix up nature cults with buddhist faith, rely on amulets rather than right understanding and just care about making merits supporting the Sangha (read monks). Sri Lanka has been sustaining a 'sacred', discriminatory war for more than 20 years against hindu-tamils. Imagine that as we have a Ministery of Culture, they have the Ministery of Buddhasasana but it was the 'buddhist memebers' of the government who made the constitution that outcasted the hindus as ethinic minority provocating the reaction leading to the war that is consumming the finances of a country that is already poor. The new generation could not care less about Buddhism and just parrot the west. Their dream is going to India and meet the movie stars of Bollywood. Burma/Myamar is under military repression, slavery like system, social, political and economical injustice THAT I HAVE OBSERVED right in front of my eyes with a policeman beating up a civil a bit drunk on the road - the Dhamma is preserved by monastics and laypeople BUT very old fashioned and meditation compulsive-obssessive till your legs drop dead by lack of circulation and you achieve a 'no cushion' flat bum. I love Southeast Asia Rob and I lived happily in all this countries but I see reality as it is - you are wearing rose tinted glasses sweetheart. Where is this wonderful country, wonderful people of yours, they are too good to be real. Personally I firmly believe that the future of Dhamma is actually in WEST. I apologise for my straightforwardeness with the Thais, Sri Lankans and Myamar members of the list, I enjoy both your countries as your people for different reasons than Rob but it doesn't prevent me from acknowledging reality. Love Cybele ______ >Thanks Tadao, >Your presence on this group is so valuable. >I was never a monk but can certainly verify the truth of the >enthusiam and genuine understanding of many Thai's. I know of >the wrongviews by a few; however, it seems I meet so many who >have keen insight. >Thai's who see the advantage of learning the deep aspects of >Dhamma can well see that there is really no one. So when >discussing Dhamma with them there are always questions and >comments that aim to wipe away further the idea of self. It >seems rarer to find this in the west; often even the most basic >understanding of anatta is disputed; and so the same aspects >have to be repeated again and again. >This made me think of Bruce's recent comment on how the >discussions on dsg are confusing and how he is looking forward >to Thailand; and this is one of the conditions the Buddha gave >for right view (residing in a suitable place where true Dhamma >can be heard). >It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma there >are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this moment >conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and practice >are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held self-view. >WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - not >realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that any >moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while no >moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if there >is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', they >think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their own >heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is arising >now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is >really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. As this >is gradually known a profound detachment - from taking any >moment as mine- develops. (detachment from sense objects comes >later) >I guess i've visited thailand almost thirty times, and every >time I'm humbled by the degree of confidence (saddha) and >wisdom(panna) so many Thai's. >robert > 6682 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom Dear Kom > >Dear Cybele, > >Then, my response probably will yet be longer!. By the time we settle >with this thread, it will take each of us weeks to respond... No promise, that's why I want to take my time to reply in a mindful way but synthetic! ;-) > >I guess the electronic forum is really helpful, but is really no match to >discuss in person. True Kom, if you could see my smile you would realize that I am very cool despite the intensity that comes from my post, strange but true! >I hope you find peace in writing the response. Kom I just want to 'find' right understanding. :-)))))) Thank you for being so eloquent - I appreciate. Love Cybele 6683 From: bruce Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:28pm Subject: intention i happened to just now find an answer to the question i haven't asked yet, re: intention, in alan driver's (Ven Dhammadharo's) Be Here Now, from http://www.abhidhamma.org/be%20here%20now.htm ===== Q: But can't awareness be directed without introducing a self? Bhikkhu: By whom, by what? Why bother? If it arises, isn't that good enough? Why do we have to ahe any idea of somebody or something taking it and putting it there? Q: Is it because we have the intention of being aware of certain things? Bhikkhu: Why not be aware without intention because in fact, you cannot be aware, nor can you do anything, just by intention. Intention is anatta, not self. The condition for the arising of awareness is not an intention to be aware, but the right understanding. If we would like to change conditions, we can do so in our thinking, but in reality, we can't. If it seems to us that we have awareness when we intend to have it, then that is our thinking. And that is another subject - a very fit one - for awareness to realize that it is not self who is thinking wrongly at the moment either. Just another reality. There is no intention in the eightfold Path, none whatsoever. Intention is not among the eight factors of the eightfold path. ===== The rest of the essay is worth reading too, imho. bruce 6684 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:46pm Subject: Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Dear Mike, Robert, Gayan How are you? I think I have found a Suttam quite relevant to anihilation (vibhava). Although this Suttam is different from the one you remember, it explicitly describes anihilation of five aggregates. So the statement is even more stronger than anihilation of dukkha. You know what I mean! The Suttam is Section 55 Udana Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, Khandha Samyuttam, Khandha Vaggo, Samyuttanikayo. The sample lines come like these below. "rupam vibhavisatiti yathabhutam pajanatia .... "viññanam vibhavisatiti yathabhutam pajanatia." It also has the noun forms such as " rupassa vibhava ..." I hope this message satisfies your Dhamma Wish to some degree! With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Gayan and Robert, > > So do I--unfortunately, I'm unable to find it so far > (as usual of late). I'll post it if I can find it. > > mike > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > > --- <> wrote: > > > > > Thanks Gayan, > > I think I have a vague memory of this too! > > robert > > > > dear robert, > > > > > > I vaguely remember a phrase from a sutta where > > buddha says > > > something > > > like this, > > > "monks, some may accuse me of preaching about > > annihilation.To > > > that I > > > say this, yes,I preach you about > > annihilation,annihilation of > > > dukkha > > > that is, and nothing else." > > > > > > (pardon for the vagueness) > > > rgds > 6685 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 0:51am Subject: Sañña Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana PART (1) Re: Nibbana anihilation? Dear Erik, Robert Epstein, And Anders Honoré How are you? According to Gotama the Buddha, Sañña does participate when consciousness is taking nibbana as its stimulus. I will provide Suttams references for this. First things, first. There is the Suttam support for Abhidhamma which confirms that sañña is inserapable from every consciousness- (a sabbacittasadharana cetasika). The Suttam is Section 53, Upaya Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, within Khandha Samyuttam, Khandha Vaggo, Samyutta Nikayo. The paragraph is as follows. "Yo, bhikkhave, evam vadeyya– `ahamaññatra rupam aññatra vedanaya aññatra saññaya aññatra sankharehi viññanassa agatim va gatim va cutim va upapattim va vuddhim va virulhim va vepullam va paññapessami'ti, netam thanam vijjati. "Monks, whoever might thus talk about consciousness's happenings without matter, without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, that talk does not make sense." Apology for a shortened translation of the above paragraph! Please kindly go to a suitable book of translation done by someone such as Bhikkhu Bodhi by using the references. Now the main point is, Gotama the Buddha taught that,without memory (sañña) no consciousness happens. By the way, it is now 2.44 AM in Canberra, so I am very sleepy. I will post the next part of this message tomorrow - how Sañña behaves when consciousness deals with imageless nibbana - with references, of course. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- <> wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > > > > The Theravada do say that nibbana is an object of citta > > > > (consciousness). It is the object of magga-citta and > > > > Phala-citta. > > > > This is said in total ignorance, but: is it possible that nibbana > is the object > > of consciousness in terms of focus in advanced practice, but that > it is not > > actually cognized, identified, or perceived by that consciousness? > > Your contention dones't sound at all ignorant to me. Nor to acharyas > like Master Vasubandhu, who also questioned how Nibbana, lacking all > marks, can possibly be "cognized" by citta, which by definition has > sanna as a component among the sabba-citta-sadharana cetasikas. How > can sanna perform its function when there is nothing to mark, Nibbana > being unconditioned? I haev yet to see any satisfactory explanation > of this, and yet if we read what Khun Sujin says: > > "Cakkhu-vinnana-citta does not arise with lobha, dosa, moha or any > other sobhana-cetasika. Cakkhu-vinnana-citta arises with only seven > cetasika, namely phassa-cetasika, vedana-cetasika, sanna-cetasika, > cetana-cetasika, ekaggata-cetasika, jivitindriya-cetasika and > manasikara-cetasika. These seven cetasika are the sabba-citta- > sadharana-cetasika, the cetasika that arises with all citta. The > citta cannot arise without these seven cetasika. No matter which > kind of citta, akusala-, kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, lokuttara-citta > or any citta whatever, would have to arise concurrently with these > seven cetasika. These sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika are the > annasamana-cetasika, or cetasika that conform with whatever they > arise with. Concurring with akusala-citta, the seven sabba-citta- > sadharana-cetasika are akusala; with kusala-citta, they are kusala > etc." > > To recap the key point here: "No matter which kind of citta, akusala- > , kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, ***lokuttara-citta*** or ***any citta > whatever***, would have to arise concurrently with these seven > cetasika." > > Very clearly lokuttara cittas have sanna using this definition from > the Abhidhamma. What I'd like to understand is how the Abhidhamma can > possibly support this contention, because by reason alone it entails > the absdurd consequence that Nibbana is somehow conditioned! How > could it be otherwise if sanna is a part of the mix? Sanna by > definition requires someTHING to mark, and the act of "marking" > immediately creates a this/that, subject/object (Nibbana as object, > citta as subject) dichotomy. And nowhere is there any "mark" (other > than anatta) that applies to Nibbana, and how can one possibly > perceiev the existence of a mere absence of greed, hatred, and > delusion? Given there are NO, as in, zero, zip, nada, nil, kein, > nichivo conventional marks that pertain to Nibbana, how can sanna > possibly perform any function of "marking" the Nibbaba as arammana > without any samutti aspect there to mark? Can sanna possibly mark > what doesn't even exist conventionally? > > > This would allow nibbana to remain non-objective while still being > a focus for > > attainment. At the realization of nibbana, the focus upon it would > be abolished > > [even though it has never been seen] and nibbana would be realized > as the cognizer > > rather than the object of cognition. > > I really like your probing this issue. It's something I've always > questioned in terms of the notion that lokuttara cittas > somehow "cognize" Nibbana. > > > This would in a sense mean that nibbana remains an idea of a sort, > even for > > advanced practice right up until the time of actual attainment when > all > > idea-images are dissolved in the realization of being the source > rather than the > > receiver of consciousness. > > > > Is this off the wall? > > Robert, you have elucidated what is an extremely subtle point here, > and I thank you for bringing it up. > > Cheers, > Erik 6686 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:08am Subject: Re: Satipatthana, the only way? (was Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) Dear Erik, You may find the following suttas pertinent to the discussion: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-175.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn011.html kom --- <> wrote: > --- "Derek Cameron" > wrote: > > > Anyway, ekayaano maggo "one-going path" is a path that > > goes to only one place -- a path sure to lead to that one place. In > > the other example of this word in the Pali Canon, it's used to > > describe a physical path that leads to a pit of burning coals ... > in > > other words, a path that's sure to lead you directly to that one > > place. I think someone said that it's the commentary on the MN that > > misleads people into translating it as "only," but I'm not sure > about > > that point, since I don't stay up late a nights reading the > > commentaries! > > I think of, for example, Mahavira (Jain), and from my very cursory > readings of Jainism it almost, to my very uneducated (on Jainism) ear > on this that sounds almost as if he attained a status equal to that > of arahat. Then we have some Hindu sects (I can hear the stakes being > rough-hewn and the kindling being collected even now), who have some > awfully similar-sounding teachings to what you find in Buddhism (neti > neti, anyone?). If you read the Jewish sage Maimonides' teachings on > the Kabbalistic Ayin Sof (Infinite Emptiness), you see he says > explicitly that the moer nergations, the nearer one is to G-d. And > forget Taoism, "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao" is > nothing if not a direc teaching on relinquishing of all views, at > least as I interpret that very first verse of the Tao te Ching. > 6687 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:34am Subject: Re: Satipatthana, the only way? (was Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) Dear Erik, This is a passage from Sanpasadaniya Sutta (Serene Faith), in AN 28: 'Lord, if I were asked: " Well now, friend Sariputta, have there ever been in the past any ascetics and Brahmins more exalted in englightenment than the Blessed Lord?" I should say: "No." If asked: "Will there by any such in the future?" I should say: "No." If asked: "Is there any such at present?" I should say: "No." Again, if I were asked "have there been any such in the past eaual in englightenment to the Blseed Lord?" I should say: "Yes." If asked: "Will there be any such in the future?" I should say: "Yes." But if I were asked: "Are there any such at present equal in englightenment to the Blseed Lord?" I should say: "No." And if I were then asked: "Verenerable Sariputta, why do you accord this highest recognition to one and not the other?" I should say: "I have heard and received it from the Blessed Lord's own lips: "There have been in the past, and there will be in the future, Arahant Buddhas equal in enlightenment to myself.' I have also heard and received it from the Blessed Lord's own lips that it is not possible, it cannot be that in one and the same world-system, two Arahant supreme Buddhas should arise simultaneously. No such situation can exist." [End Quote] Some people have identified "Niganta Nattaputta", mentioned in the tipitakas, as the founder of the Jains. The Jains themselves (I have a few I know) do not know the founder by that name. Some encyclopedia attribute the founder of the Jain to be named "Mahavira" or "Nattaputta". kom > > I think of, for example, Mahavira (Jain), and from my very cursory > > readings of Jainism it almost, to my very uneducated (on Jainism) ear > > on this that sounds almost as if he attained a status equal to that > > of arahat. Then we have some Hindu sects (I can hear the stakes being > > rough-hewn and the kindling being collected even now), who have some > > awfully similar-sounding teachings to what you find in Buddhism (neti > > neti, anyone?). If you read the Jewish sage Maimonides' teachings on > > the Kabbalistic Ayin Sof (Infinite Emptiness), you see he says > > explicitly that the moer nergations, the nearer one is to G-d. And > > forget Taoism, "the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao" is > > nothing if not a direc teaching on relinquishing of all views, at > > least as I interpret that very first verse of the Tao te Ching. 6688 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 9:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sanskrit and Pali grammars Hi, Derek: I love Thailand and Thai people. Prior to encountering the Buddhism, I studied Thai cultures as part of my (first) BA in socialogy. I learnt many important things from Thai people. The most important thing I learnt from them is, besides the Buddhhism, generocity. They are probably the most generous people in the world. (Khun Amara and her mother very much exemplify their generous nature.) Once you decide to stay longer there, you will see lots of nice qualiteis Thai people have, which the other peoples do not. (I am saying that they are void of many shortcomings.) At any rate, good luck with your trip. tadao 6689 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Hi, Herman and Robert: Nobody is perfect; no nation is perfect. Thailand has many prblems/flawa, but it is a country where the basic ethics of the Buddhim is well regarded by many Thais. Majority of them may have rather shallow understinding of the Dhamma. However, you can also find many many learned people, (I would like to say), such as Khun Sujin, from whom you can learn so much. As Robert rightly pointed out, and as cited in the Mangala Sutta, living in a "suitable place" is probably one of the most important factor, if not the most important factor, to develop the Dhamma. I have been finding that living in the Canadian society is not really "inducing", since the most of us are so preoccupied with material gains here. I am finding that chatting on the Dhamma on this Net so refreshing, despite the fact we may not agree with each other on various points. tadao 6690 From: ppp Date: Sat Jul 21, 2001 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] thailand/west Hi, Rob and Cyble: With respect to Thailand and Thai people, I have the same feeling as Rob does. Before going to South-east Asia, I studied their politics, cultures, etc. as an undergraduate in Japan. Eventually I lived in Thailand for five years, Sri Lanka for two and a half, and Indonesia for half a year. Once you live in these countries long enough to be able to observe thier real life, you, of coure, start seeing various shortcomings of the social systems, peoples's natures, etc. The important thing is, however, that your observation and findings do not correspond to things which you hear from the mass media. You will have more first hand understanding of these things, and start seeing that, desptie various shortcomings, these people are endowed with various qualities which we do not have. (i.e., You start seeing things not from the top-dwon fashion, but from the bottom-up fashion.) And in my case, I have developed very positive outlook of these peoples in Asia. Also, I think, it is rather dangerous to apply our own ideology to others' ways of life. They may be "terrible" from the Western democratic vewpoint, but, they have their own systems some of which work far better than the Western system. (Also, the Westeners often think that they "invented" democracy. However, the democraty which they invented was the" democracy of exclusion", which excludes the human rights of the poor, those of women, those of gay people, and those of minorities, etc.) It would be wise if one does not see or judge others' cultures based on one's own view/ideology, but see things as they are, while trying to find the postive aspects of the people involved. (Kun Nina may have something to say about the issue in hand becaue she lived in a rather different environment as I did: at that time, her husband was the Dutch ambasseder to Thailand). tadao 6691 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:27am Subject: Re: thailand/west Dear Tadao, Rob, and Cybele, I was listening to one of the (Thai) tape of TA Sujin the other day, and one of the audience made remarks about how Thais are nicer than Westerners when it comes to considerations to others and such. TA Sujin responded to the tune that everyone, unless they are an ariyan, still have the same basic greed, anger, and ignorance. [One is not better than the other from the standpoint that as long as one does not attain, one still have the opportunity to be monstrously bad in the future]. She often reminds us that it is a wise person who sees the good in others and the faults in oneself [so that one may correct it]. [This is how one grows one's kusala]. When one thinks of the faults of others, it is more than likely that akusala is rising. kom --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Rob and Cyble: > With respect to Thailand and Thai people, I have the same feeling as > Rob does. Before going to South-east Asia, I studied their politics, > cultures, etc. as an undergraduate in Japan. Eventually I lived in > Thailand for five years, Sri Lanka for two and a half, and Indonesia for > half a year. Once you live in these countries long enough to be able > to observe thier real life, you, of coure, start seeing various > shortcomings of the social systems, peoples's natures, etc. The > important thing is, however, that your observation and findings > do not correspond to things which you hear from the mass media. > You will have more first hand understanding of these things, > and start seeing that, desptie various shortcomings, these people > are endowed with various qualities which we do not have. > (i.e., You start seeing things not from the top-dwon fashion, but > from the bottom-up fashion.) And in my case, I have developed > very positive outlook of these peoples in Asia. > Also, I think, it is rather dangerous to apply our own ideology > to others' ways of life. They may be "terrible" from the Western > democratic vewpoint, but, they have their own systems some of which > work far better than the Western system. (Also, the Westeners often > think that they "invented" democracy. However, the democraty which > they invented was the" democracy of exclusion", which excludes > the human rights of the poor, those of women, those of gay people, > and those of minorities, etc.) It would be wise if one does not see > or judge others' cultures based on one's own view/ideology, but > see things as they are, while trying to find the postive aspects of > the people involved. (Kun Nina may have something to say about > the issue in hand becaue she lived in a rather different environment > as I did: at that time, her husband was the Dutch ambasseder to > Thailand). tadao 6692 From: Christine Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 8:22am Subject: Re: Ajaan Chaa Hi All, Thank you Cybele, Tadao, Bruce for your discussion of the relative merits of the style and content of the teachings of Ajahn Chah. I benefit immensely from all the posts on this list, though I lack the ability to join in the debates. Even unpopular or unsupported views teach me a lot, because I spend much time with Google seeking out further information to help me understand. This time I found a link which may be familiar to all of you, but which may be helpful to any others like myself still struggling across the misty flats with the mountain ahead yet to be climbed! http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm Three or four complete books here by Ajahn Chah, as well as others. metta, Christine --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Hi Bruce > >hi cybele and tadao > >pardon me for butting in you two, but i really think you're *both* missing > >the point of that Ajaan Chaa quotation... > >my problem w/the Ven Chaa is that he's just a bit too prone to pithy > >maxims...maybe there's something lost in his translation into english, but > > > Well what I appreciate is his simplicity and straighforwardeness. 6693 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 8:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] thailand/west Dear Tadao > >Hi, Rob and Cybele: >With respect to Thailand and Thai people, I have the same feeling as >Rob does. Before going to South-east Asia, I studied their politics, >cultures, etc. as an undergraduate in Japan. Please Tadao with respect for your values that is most evident I am not very much attuned with, don't start putting me off with your titles that are not guarantee of actual knowledge of anything for me; this namarupa from Brazil is not enough for you, do you need a bit of reassuring titles to consider me capable of discernment; well I am graduated in Philosophy. And I have also studied Sanskrit. Content now? And my job for years was as an air hostess all over the world and afterwards as a tourist guide in Europe and...Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Malaysia.... Direct observation of reality not theory. >Eventually I lived in >Thailand for five years, Sri Lanka for two and a half, and Indonesia for >half a year. Once you live in these countries long enough to be able >to observe thier real life, you, of coure, start seeing various >shortcomings of the social systems, peoples's natures, etc. Indeed Tadao, I lived in India, in Sri Lanka, in Burma, in Thailand, in Malaysia and I am very keen on observing cultures and integrating inside them without struggle; I am a nomadic by character. If you were a monk in Thailand or in any of the other places, first thing to consider is that your lifestyle was quite peculiar and 'sheltered'. Don't know how much of actual reality you got the chance to SEE. I am perfectly at ease in Southeast Asia Tadao, I get along better with a thai than with an anglosaxon, apart my English friend John that is a kind of patient, sweet and understanding human being that is literally impossible don't get along with him but for me is much simpler to cope with an Asian. Even my own people I can hardly stand with all their beach, football, carnival, political alienation... Must be my past accumulations... >The important thing is, however, that your observation and findings >do not correspond to things which you hear from the mass media. Naturally this discourse you can do perhaps with Herman for his political considerations but not with me. Herman seems to me a kind of knight in shining armour, a brave paladin sometimes and is rather sweet. And apart manipulative information in the media, not everything is to be dismissed so lightly. >You will have more first hand understanding of these things, >and start seeing that, desptie various shortcomings, these people >are endowed with various qualities which we do not have. >(i.e., You start seeing things not from the top-dwon fashion, but >from the bottom-up fashion.) I never disclaimed my sympathy and profound interest for eastern culture, that's exactly why I prefer living there than in West. But this doesn't prevent me from seeing reality as it is. And I am not talking about 'people' but on social and political context Tadao. I have many friends in all this places. Brazilian people is warm, communicative and cheerful, like in the stereotypes but brazilian government is corrupted and evil in the very core of their 'non beings' and the life, culture and mentality of this people is influenced by all this conditions, and eventually they end up being opportunists, immoral and dishonests - drugs, prostitution, robbery, sexual perversion. So what? That's it. And denial is certainly not going to change the situation. >And in my case, I have developed >very positive outlook of these peoples in Asia. Meaning that everybody should follow your positive outlook because you know better? >Also, I think, it is rather dangerous to apply our own ideology >to others' ways of life. They may be "terrible" from the Western >democratic vewpoint, but, they have their own systems some of which >work far better than the Western system. Lord Buddha, I agree and applaude; I am the in the front line to figure out an original formula for the third world countries rather than parrot the ridiculous mistakes that we have dome in West with appalling consequences. >(Also, the Westeners often >think that they "invented" democracy. However, the democraty which >they invented was the" democracy of exclusion", which excludes >the human rights of the poor, those of women, those of gay people, >and those of minorities, etc.) Please Tadao give me a break, your analysis of western as eastern culture lack of proper elements and sheer common sense. Injustice and corruption exists either in West or East - if you suffered discrimination where you live for being an eastern it's not anybody's personal fault. It's social and cultural conditions, that's my point. In Thailand, Bangkok, in touristic places they treat westerners with contempt and I don't blame them as these westerners have no respect at all for their values and traditions and want to impose their mentality, what is certainly not my case. I speak a crap thai and this doesn't prevent communication - I go around smiling (what it's totally natural on me because despite my assertiveness I am a sunny person) and clarifying I am buddhist, what indeed I am, meaning actual convertion, refuges, precepts and all that jazz and immediately people welcomes me. This is not the place to discuss such subject but if you are keen we can expand this issue in a proper site. Personally I am neither European nor American and all this discourse of cultural arrogance doesn't belongs to me at all. Wrong target my friend. I am a liberal and anarchic. I don't believe in 'white superiority', I am not colonialist nor paternalist. I just see reality as it is and not through rose tinted glasses. >It would be wise if one does not see >or judge others' cultures based on one's own view/ideology, but >see things as they are, while trying to find the postive aspects of >the people involved. Well you judged Ajahn Chan from a single story forwarded on a list. And suddenly there you are combacting heedlessness. I am not judging, I am refering FACTS, dear Tadao. Have you ever been on a Thai prison? I have been and I talked with the prisoners. Then please before you defend a country for the sake of the friends you admire and respect, try and find the real aspects of the people, the culture and the society involved. >(Kun Nina may have something to say about >the issue in hand becaue she lived in a rather different environment >as I did: at that time, her husband was the Dutch ambasseder to >Thailand). tadao I can imagine Khun Nina lived in a very realistic, diplomatic envinroment but Thailand is not all the Dutch Embassy unfortunetly my friend. Tadao a country is just 'a country', a conditioned phenomena as anything else and people is only 'people' non self, non abiding entity, just nama rupa, how it comes that you are so indignant? I like the fact that I am the passionate one but I cannot perceive all this so called japanese detachment. I am the one supposed to lose sight of anatta and get passionately identified with situations and people. You are stealing my role dhamma brother! :-) Referring to the texts is a good deal but applying that principles on real life is quite a challenge to our conditionings. Prejudices arises, aversion arises, personal interests and preferences, our pride, our nationalism, our desires and ideals, our cultural background. Where is actual reality in all this mental chaos? Don't misconstrue me Tadao, too semplicistic saying I am an ignorant of eastern culture only because I am western and non compliant. I have spent most of my life travelling in Asia, most probably a lot more than you, despite being an Asian yourself. And I have never conduced a sheltered life. I have been on the road far too long to wear rose tinted glasses. And the fact is reality is not always that alluring. And I am too honest to deny what I see. But I appreciate the beauty and goodness of all this countries. One thing doesn't spoil or prevent the other. Metta Cybele 6694 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Hi, Kom: I appreciate the point you raised. tadao 6695 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] thailand/west Hi, Cebyle: Obviously, you have had a lot of interesting experiences in Asia, seeing a lot of things I've never seen. tadao 6696 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 8:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajaan Chaa - Christine Dear Christine Much appreciation. You are always very helpful with your links. And regarding your feeling of inadequacy to join the discussions, please don't wait to be fluent in Pali to come over. Dhamma is the ral issue and if you are seeker, you are MOST WELCOME. Don't feel intimidate with the erudition here, they don't bite I can assure you. We need a bit of equilibrium here, too much masculine vision, too much Yang, we need to temper it with a bit of feminine Yin. Please just come in and share with us your practice and your perplexities. I know you are brave enough. Jump aboard. By the way, very interesting the discussions on Buddhism and depression but as you can see I have been a bit engrossed lately. ;-) Love Cybele >>Hi All, > >Thank you Cybele, Tadao, Bruce for your discussion of the relative >merits of the style and content of the teachings of Ajahn Chah. I >benefit immensely from all the posts on this list, though I lack the >ability to join in the debates. Even unpopular or unsupported views >teach me a lot, because I spend much time with Google seeking out >further information to help me understand. >This time I found a link which may be familiar to all of you, but >which may be helpful to any others like myself still struggling >across the misty flats with the mountain ahead yet to be climbed! > >http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm > >Three or four complete books here by Ajahn Chah, as well as others. > >metta, > >Christine >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > Hi Bruce > > >hi cybele and tadao > > >pardon me for butting in you two, but i really think you're *both* >missing > > >the point of that Ajaan Chaa quotation... > > >my problem w/the Ven Chaa is that he's just a bit too prone to >pithy > > >maxims...maybe there's something lost in his translation into >english, but > > > > > Well what I appreciate is his simplicity and straighforwardeness. > > > 6697 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Hi, Suan Lua and Jim: What kind of ending is 'pajana"tia"? I need your help. tadao 6698 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Satipatthana, the only way? (was Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) Hi, Erick and Kom: What langauge is used for the Jain texts? Is it Prakrit? If so, can those who know Pali read the texts wihtout much problem? tadao 6699 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Kom > >Dear Tadao, Rob, and Cybele, > >I was listening to one of the (Thai) tape of TA Sujin the other day, and >one of the audience made remarks about how Thais are nicer than >Westerners when it comes to considerations to others and such. TA Sujin >responded to the tune that everyone, unless they are an ariyan, still have >the same basic greed, anger, and ignorance. [One is not better than the >other from the standpoint that as long as one does not attain, one still >have the opportunity to be monstrously bad in the future]. I entirely agree. We are all a 'mess'. But from the stanpoint of mess also the other way round is valid, from akusala can arise kusala. Everything is conditioned phenomena, every dhamma is impermanent, things are interdependent and neither Buddha, nor Tipitaka, or Abhidhamma are Gods to worship. Or Khun Sujin for that matter. > >She often reminds us that it is a wise person who sees the good in others >and the faults in oneself [so that one may correct it]. [This is how one >grows one's kusala]. When one thinks of the faults of others, it is more >than likely that akusala is rising. > >kom > I can appreciate her viewpoint but reality is reality dear Kom and if we have to observe reality as it is we cannot DENY this very same reality. And if what I observe can be delusion, as well it is either in something to flatter as something to blame. And if somebody wants to integrate in a place he should know what is the actual situation one has to cope with. Or let's continue living in an 'ivory tower'? Self deceit. Saying that westerners are 'evil' as sweetheart Prime Minister Mahathir from Malaysia declares is a radical, deceptive position specially considering that he is an acknowledged bastard. But saying that all Thais are insightful and have a natural confidence and familiarity with Dhamma is not very acurate as they are raised up in that envinroment, I bet you is easier for them to understand, where is the great kusala? Being born there? Great kamma. Then why all Asians, buddhist and non do acrobacies to finish in this Western Hell? Delusion indeed, survival or greed? And why the ordinary people not the instructed, priviledged ones believe in 'gods' and superstitions of every kind in Thailand and don't study Dhamma or meditate but just accomplish rituals and bows to Buddha images? I am looking only at the dark side or this is reality? You know what is curious Kom, that here seems that only 'the others' are deluded - Robert, Sarah, Jon are in the path to enlightenment and we 'the others' are ignorants that you veterans magnanimously tollerate and patronize when is necessary. But sometimes it occurs to any of you that perhaps indeed can happens that we talk sense? Just a question I pose to myself, no need to answer. Metta Cybele 6700 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 9:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] thailand/west Hi Tadao > >Hi, Cebyle: >Obviously, you have had a lot of interesting experiences in Asia, >seeing a lot of things I've never seen. tadao > Cybele: Indeed so it seems Tadao and you experienced things that I didn't being a layperson. But let's don't assume that only one of us has the right view. What I wish to enhance is that there are always too sides in a coin and you cannot admire only one because it is much more appealing to our sense. You don't have to 'like me' necessarily to accept and consider my opinion and I don't need to 'like you' to do the same. It's not a question of preferences but what is fair: you have been honest in your sharing, fair enough; from my side I have been honest too accordingly with my experience. Much metta Cybele 6701 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear 'knight in shinning armour' Herman >>My understanding of some of the prevalent conditions in Thailand is, >and I fully accept that this could be entirely flawed, that in order >to score drugs or watch pornography, you go to a temple. No true, there is corruption but not at this extent. Unless an isolated case has been reported. >And the >justice system summarily executes people. True and the conditions in the prisons is appalling. There are many westerners locked up for drugs and even a small ammount of hashish means 30 to 40 years. Unless you have enough money to bribe your freedom. > >Buddhist nations have no spectacular place in world history. I think >to some extent the notion of anatta allows such phenomena as the >killing fields of Cambodia and the annexation of Tibet. I know that >in some Buddhist quarters, Ghandi is ridiculed because he acted. Why >act, when it is all impermanent, without self? Ahhh, must admit that your considerations are quite interesting. I am in agreement with you about their motivations based on buddhist principles. But for example in Burma, Myamar mostly the reason is non violence. However the repression is so diffused that the risks in fighting out the government are immense not barely for you but for your family and friends. People is enduring and are very brave. > >Anyway, for me a verifiable reality each moment is that this body >acts to preserve and enhance itself. Breath in , breath out. Eat, >drink, drive car very precisely in the middle of the lane so as not >to kill this body. The concepts that fly around between the ears soon >cease when an idiot doesn't give way to you at the roundabout. Very smart Herman; sadhu x 3. ;-)))) Love Cybele 6702 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:18am Subject: Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Suan Lua and Jim: > What kind of ending is 'pajana"tia"? > I need your help. tadao Tadao, I think that final "a" must be a typo. Ruupa.m vibhavissatiiti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati "He understands as it is: 'Form will cease to exist'" Derek. 6703 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Hi, Derek: Thank you very much for your help for the Pali passage. Your interpretation/reading makes sense. tadao 6704 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 11:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sañña_Is_Okay_With_Imageless_Nibbana__PART_(1)_Re:_Nibbana_anihilation?_ Dear Suan, Thanks for your accurate input, a great help . Erik the sanna (perception) is not mixed with nibbana. But Nibbana is the object. Even now when visible object (colours) is cognised by seeing consciousness the sanna that arises at the same time does not mix in with the visible object. The very first stage of vipassana nana sees the distinction between nama and rupa. robert --- Suan Lu Zaw wrote: > > > > Dear Erik, Robert Epstein, And Anders Honoré > > > How are you? > > According to Gotama the Buddha, Sañña does participate > when consciousness is taking nibbana as its stimulus. I > will provide Suttams references for this. > > First things, first. > > There is the Suttam support for Abhidhamma which confirms > that sañña is inserapable from every consciousness- (a > sabbacittasadharana cetasika). > > The Suttam is > > Section 53, Upaya Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, within Khandha > Samyuttam, > Khandha Vaggo, Samyutta Nikayo. > > The paragraph is as follows. > > "Yo, bhikkhave, evam vadeyya– `ahamaññatra > rupam > aññatra vedanaya aññatra saññaya aññatra > sankharehi > viññanassa agatim va gatim va cutim va upapattim > va > vuddhim va virulhim va vepullam va paññapessami'ti, netam > thanam vijjati. > > "Monks, whoever might thus talk about consciousness's > happenings > without matter, without feeling, without memory, and without > other > mental components, that talk does not make sense." > > Apology for a shortened translation of the above paragraph! > Please > kindly go to a suitable book of translation done by someone > such as > Bhikkhu Bodhi by using the references. > > Now the main point is, Gotama the Buddha taught that,without > memory > (sañña) no consciousness happens. > > By the way, it is now 2.44 AM in Canberra, so I am very > sleepy. > > I will post the next part of this message tomorrow - how Sañña > > behaves when consciousness deals with imageless nibbana - with > > references, of course. > > > > With regards > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > 6705 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 5:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajaan Chaa Hi, Bruce: With respect to Aarchan Chah, I see your point. tadao 6706 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] thailand/west Dear Robert, Can I deduce from what you have written below, that when someone seperates the pariyatti from the actual practice thinking that the former is a tool for the latter at another time and place, being a situation created by the mind, we are infact chasing our own projections? Sukin > It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma there > are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this moment > conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and practice > are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held self-view. > WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - not > realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that any > moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while no > moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if there > is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', they > think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their own > heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is arising > now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is > really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. As this > is gradually known a profound detachment - from taking any > moment as mine- develops. (detachment from sense objects comes > later) > I guess i've visited thailand almost thirty times, and every > time I'm humbled by the degree of confidence (saddha) and > wisdom(panna) so many Thai's. > robert > 6707 From: Erik Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 2:05pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana, the only way? (was Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Erick and Kom: > What langauge is used for the Jain texts? Is it Prakrit? If so, > can those who know Pali read the texts wihtout much problem? I have no idea what language the Jain texts are written in. To be honest, I've only read a very tiny bit of Jain theory, and what caught me at first was what sounded like some very striking similarities between the desirelessness there and the Buddha's message on same. Frankly, though, when I dug a bit deeper, all the emphasis on what I see as overscrupulousness put me off rightaway, and in my present opinion, while I respect all systems of religion from Mormonism to Jainism as expedient means for those with the accumulations to make use of them at that point in their development, I do not consider them final. In other words, I do not see them concisely teaching how to permanently cut the fetters binding us to the wheel of samsara the way the Buddha's Dhamma does. For example, the Jaina teachings in general left me with a queasy feeling in my stomach, and yet, I wonder if perhaps, like Paccekabuddhas, the founder did get it somehow, but failed to articulate that understanding in such a way it would liberate others, leaving us with a system that focuses on all the wrong things and confuses overscrupulousness (one of the Buddha's failed experiments from previous lives, as I recall) with something that liberates. In other words, silabbataparamasa. What is definite accoerding to the Buddhist scriptures that there are many who have rightly self-awakened without hearing the Buddha's teachings in that particular lifetime, and this has always given me pause for consideration. While I have no interest at all in parcticing anything other than the Buddhadhamma, at the same time, I wonder, wonder wonder... Another consideration that comes to mind is that given anicca, dukkha, anatta are FACTS of existence, it stands to reason that someone with the appropriate accumulations could quite well awaken to this perfectly (it IS the natural condition of all sankhara dhammas after all), yet turn around and phrase their teachings in a way that sounds quite different from the teachings we associate with Shakyamuni Buddha. After all, it is said that the mode of teaching for devas is quite different from the sorts of sermons the Buddha propounded. I think (please someone correct me if I am mistaken here) that in some planes of existence the Dhamma is expounded only through various symbols and gestures or somesuch, and even here on the human plane is trasmitted often simply mind-to-mind (or a "direct pointing at the heart", as in Zen and in some forms of Tibetan Buddhism), withouth much reference to textual tradition. My opinion is that if one comes to understanding through any one of the three aspects (emptiness/anatta, anicca, dukkha), then all other modes of understanding are instantaneously established, though I have to say, there are so many ways of phrasing this pedagogically that the more I learn about and study the textual Dhamma, the less inclined I am to believe the Buddhists are the only ones who have arrived at these truths. Perhaps the nearest example I see fitting the Buddha's Dhamma is Taoism (or rather, the verses of the Tao te Ching). This is a question I am likely never to resolve in this lifetime if I fail in the aspiration of full Buddhahood this go-round, and will have to await until this collection of heaps attains supreme enlightenment and perfect omniscience to know for sure. Until then, this shall remain for me an open, but provocative, question. 6708 From: bruce Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 2:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Satipatthana, the only way? (was Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) erik wrote: > After all, it is said that the mode of teaching for devas is quite > different from the sorts of sermons the Buddha propounded. right! i can't help but remember that, when the Buddha first expounded the Abhidhamma, it wasn't to humans.... b 6709 From: Erik Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 2:39pm Subject: Re: thailand/west --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Herman and Robert: > Nobody is perfect; no nation is perfect. Thailand has many > prblems/flawa, but it is a country where the basic ethics of the > Buddhim is well regarded by many Thais. Majority of them may have > rather shallow understinding of the Dhamma. However, you can also > find many many learned people, (I would like to say), such as > Khun Sujin, from whom you can learn so much. To go way off-topic here... One reason I was so keen to return to Thailand to live (among the countless reasons--at least ten FOR Thailand for every one reason to remain in the USA) is the emphasis here on good manners. I have grown extremely weary of the shocking barbarianism of the USA, and relish a place where concepts like greng-jai still obtain--at least to some degree, though I have to say I hope to see some backlash against the "appearances" thing with the highly-visible latest-model cell- phones and flashing gold business that reminds me so much of the 80's US excess. I was raised with very strict Danish manners (though those are today, unfortunately, mostly history, as my mother has often lamented upon return from visits there), and whether or not such social graces are often superficial, whether or not I am seen as a walking ATM machine as a farang, I still VASTLY prefer to live among people who give decent manners proper due. While Americans may lack the smile-with- subterfuge one often finds in the Land of Smiles and are far more direct (I do appreciate straightforwardness), I still find the general boorishness and myopia of most Americans oppressive. The only places I've ever really felt comfortable, for this reason, are Denmark and Thailand (The Netherlands are great too IMO, though not so much Germany, where I was stationed for two years as an enlistee in the Army, which I found wasn't much better than the US in my opinion). > As Robert rightly > pointed out, and as cited in the Mangala Sutta, living in a > "suitable place" is probably one of the most important factor, > if not the most important factor, to develop the Dhamma. I recall when my plane first landed here earlier this year, my gut instinct was to run out and kiss the ground in sheer joy at the idea of setting foot on the soil of a land where the Buddha's Dhamma is held in such high regard, where instead of seeing only monuments to greed, power, and money as I did out of my apartment window in Manhattan, I see here, side-by-side with the same symbols of commerce (in the form of wats & chedis), symbols of the Buddha's supreme enlightenment. What could possibly be more exciting than that for someone who's felt as if they were born in the wrong hemishpere and lived their entire life feeling like some sort of alien? I feel, in many ways, as if I've just arrived home. And the all the myriad social problems aside, I much prefer this to what I was living with for the past so many years, though we'll see how long this sentiment lasts once I've had time to really settle in and the rose-colored glasses come off. :) I have > been finding that living in the Canadian society is not really > "inducing", since the most of us are so preoccupied with material > gains here. I am finding that chatting on the Dhamma on this Net > so refreshing, despite the fact we may not agree with each > other on various points. I have to say I do like Canada, and Canada's (Vancouver, actually) one place I'd consider living again in North America. 6710 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:53am Subject: Yahoo Groups Mail Hi, all - As happened once before, I have noted that for the last day or so I have received almost no mail from Yahoo groups, whereas many e-mails are available to be read at the web site. Is anyone else in the same boat? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 6711 From: bruce Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west hi erik thoroughly enjoyed your post about thailand, as so much of what you say rings true with my experience in n america and asia...manners! what a wonderful thing! i can say they definitely make living in japan pleasant, even if the Dhamma here is for the most part fossilized into cultural heritage sites... cheers bruce 6712 From: Herman Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:31pm Subject: Re: thailand/west Hi Tadao, I certainly never intended to be critical of other cultures. Being a first generation emigrant, I find myself to be rootless ie I do not have a country I call home (nor do I feel this to be a lack). I do enjoy living in regional Australia, but I find wherever I go, and I have lived in many places, I am confronted by the behemoth known as self (he seems to accompany this body :-). I fully accept that there are places better suited than others for individuals. The following question is unrelated to your post, but perhaps you or someone else could shed light on why the dana/merit cycle still works in the East to maintain the Sangha, but why not in the West? Thank you for all your posts, Tadao Herman --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Herman and Robert: > Nobody is perfect; no nation is perfect. Thailand has many > prblems/flawa, but it is a country where the basic ethics of the > Buddhim is well regarded by many Thais. Majority of them may have > rather shallow understinding of the Dhamma. However, you can also > find many many learned people, (I would like to say), such as > Khun Sujin, from whom you can learn so much. As Robert rightly > pointed out, and as cited in the Mangala Sutta, living in a > "suitable place" is probably one of the most important factor, > if not the most important factor, to develop the Dhamma. I have > been finding that living in the Canadian society is not really > "inducing", since the most of us are so preoccupied with material > gains here. I am finding that chatting on the Dhamma on this Net > so refreshing, despite the fact we may not agree with each > other on various points. > tadao 6713 From: Herman Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:55pm Subject: Male/female perception (was Re: Ajaan Chaa - Christine Hi all, I have no doubt that generally speaking, men and women, perceive, process call it what you prefer, reality in a different way. Of course it doesn't apply in all cases, but there is the right brain/left brain tendencies of the sexes. Statistically, girls seem to be better at languages and the humanities, and have a feeling, intuitive approach to daily life, while boys tend to be better at mathematics and physics, and have an analytical approach to reality. There is a gnostic gospel of St Thomas (sorry , I am going off memory here) which has a text along the lines of the male has to include the female, and the female has to include the male for the kingdom to be attained. Any Buddhist or other comments? Metta Herman --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Christine > > Much appreciation. You are always very helpful with your links. > And regarding your feeling of inadequacy to join the discussions, please > don't wait to be fluent in Pali to come over. > Dhamma is the ral issue and if you are seeker, you are MOST WELCOME. > Don't feel intimidate with the erudition here, they don't bite I can assure > you. > We need a bit of equilibrium here, too much masculine vision, too much Yang, > we need to temper it with a bit of feminine Yin. > Please just come in and share with us your practice and your perplexities. > I know you are brave enough. Jump aboard. > By the way, very interesting the discussions on Buddhism and depression but > as you can see I have been a bit engrossed lately. ;-) > > Love > > Cybele > > > >>Hi All, > > > >Thank you Cybele, Tadao, Bruce for your discussion of the relative > >merits of the style and content of the teachings of Ajahn Chah. I > >benefit immensely from all the posts on this list, though I lack the > >ability to join in the debates. Even unpopular or unsupported views > >teach me a lot, because I spend much time with Google seeking out > >further information to help me understand. > >This time I found a link which may be familiar to all of you, but > >which may be helpful to any others like myself still struggling > >across the misty flats with the mountain ahead yet to be climbed! > > > >http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm > > > >Three or four complete books here by Ajahn Chah, as well as others. > > > >metta, > > > >Christine > >--- "cybele chiodi" > >wrote: > > > Hi Bruce > > > >hi cybele and tadao > > > >pardon me for butting in you two, but i really think you're *both* > >missing > > > >the point of that Ajaan Chaa quotation... > > > >my problem w/the Ven Chaa is that he's just a bit too prone to > >pithy > > > >maxims...maybe there's something lost in his translation into > >english, but > > > > > > > Well what I appreciate is his simplicity and straighforwardeness. > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > 6714 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 5:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Satipatthana, the only way? (was Theravada and Satipathana - Kom) Dear Bruce >>erik wrote: > > > After all, it is said that the mode of teaching for devas is quite > > different from the sorts of sermons the Buddha propounded. > >right! i can't help but remember that, when the Buddha first expounded the >Abhidhamma, it wasn't to humans.... > >b Must say...that was very smart! ;-))) Love Cybele 6715 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Study/Practice Dear Sukin, I wrote: > It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma > there > > are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this > moment > > conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and > practice > > are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held > self-view. > > WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - > not > > realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that > any > > moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while > no > > moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if > there > > is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', > they > > think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their > own > > heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is > arising > > now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is > > really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. As > this _________ And you replied: Dear Robert, > Can I deduce from what you have written , that when > someone > seperates the pariyatti from the actual practice thinking that > the former > is a tool for the latter at another time and place, being a > situation created > > by the mind, we are infact chasing our own projections? > Sukin ____________ This is part of what I meant. While it is true that listening to Abhidhamma is a condition for future direct insight, it is also true that it is pointing to this moment. When we are listening to Dhamma or discussing or reading the texts what cittas are present? Isn't there seeing and visible object, sound and hearing, bhavanga cittas.... It all points to understand the anattaness of dhammas that are arsing now. These dhammas are arising right while listening or considering - now is the time to understand. However, if we listen without knowing that the whole Abhidhamma has one flavour- that of anatta- one can still believe "I am listening" or "the real understanding will come later when I do this or that" (whatever one thinks the real practice is). No rule that insight should arise now and yet if there is careful listening and right consideration then wisdom of some level must arise - couldn't stop it. I was in a car with Sarah and Jon and Sujin discussing Dhamma . Jon said he was a little tired to listen . Howver, I was keen and so (rudely) carried on the discussion. He had to listen and soon came in with some comments anyway. I think it all becomes seamless - listening, considering, any time because by habit it becomes natural to learn , investiate study,. And this is such a slow process though. Too, it is not a mathematical rule that we need so many moments of sati. It is view that is the danger. If understanding is developed by listening and considering then when there are moments of direct awareness the insight can go deeper . One can only know for oneself if there is more understanding than say a year ago. But it is sometimes hard to know the conditions that caused this. Do we listen with respect? In the attahsalini (translated as expositor p14)"the Bhikkhus who study the Abhidhamma experience infinite rapturous joy in reflecting..'The Teacher taught things mental and material, dividing them into various parts- things subtel and abstruse such as the aggregates sense organs, elements, controlling faculties, kamma and its results; and the distinction between mind and matter'The Thera Mahagatigamiyatissa ...was on the upper deck of a boat he looked at the great ocean...He thought to himslef which is more extraordinary - the ocean..or the basis of the method in the Patthana (last book of abhidhamma)The limits of the ocean became apparent but the limits of the universal patthana are not apparent. Abundant rapture arose in him as he reflected on the abstruse and subtle Dhamma and increasing insight he ..became established in arahantship"Endquote When we read this we should know that there was direct insight into nama and rupa happening even during the time he was reflecting. We might think we have to get "my mind calm first" before understanding can come. But even the idea of a mind is a delusion let alone My mind. The theory shows one that nothing lasts even for a moment. here I am talikng about vipassana,. For sila, samatha or giving one can still have such self-view and perform these good deeds - but not for vipassana. The theory gives enough undertanding so that all states can be dissected. Dissected even while they are happening. All the khandas (aggregates), all the time are in a flux; there is nothing good about them. They are, as the Patisambhidhimagga says, a disease and alien, not self. Do we think calmness is good, better than agitation? They are both merely conditioned phenomena, they pass away instantly. The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant average man" as: "owing to the absense of access to the Scriptures, and of the higher attainment of the path and fruition. For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by heart and deduction therefrom regarding the khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus) sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the absense of such access and such attainment should be known as ignorant" In the Netti-Pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. These are the perception of seeing the ugly as beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - ugly, dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana -long, long time development) is investigating and learning the characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of paramattha dhammas as they are. Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are we not sure what type of citta experienced it? Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing feeling? Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these strong vipallasa but there are more subtle aspects of vipallasa. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas -but not by clinging . There is no self - that is the illusion formed by the rapid change and the different elements doing their functions. It is like a movie - merely different frames joined together and giving the appearance of life.And yet, like a movie we get so engrossed in the 'story of my life'. None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. There are levels of understanding both at the theoretical and experiential level. The theory assists undertsanding at the practical level and the practical makes the the theory clearer. Even when we are thinking there can be moments of direct understanding of the characteristics of different realities. Also when we are studying a Dhamma book there can be many moments when there is direct study of realities. This is an important question because we have to learn how to study realities directly otherwise our Dhamma study is merely theoretical. Sometimes we might think "there is no self" but still have no understanding. Thus even when we are reflecting or contemplating or whatever we call it we need to develop the ability to see below the surface and see the realities that are conditioning the thinking. It can be done and discussions like these perhaps help to encourage. And are we grateful for the understanding we have now? Whatever level is there only because of the compassion of the Buddha who developed the parami over 100,000 aeons and 4 unthinkably long periods of time. And too the sangha that kept the teachings pristine for these thousands of years - in Sri lanka, thailand, Burma, Cambodia. robert 6716 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Desirable and undesirable objects op 20-07-2001 21:43 schreef Num op Num: > < unpleasant (undesirable), kusalacittas will follow the votthapanacitta. If > there is unwise attention,akusala cittas will follow, and this is according > to conditions. The samehappens in a mind-door process, then the mind-door > adverting-consciousnessis followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas, > depending on accumulatedconditions.>> > > Let me ask you about "desirable and undesirable" objects. What's the > criteria or definitions of being "desirable and undesirable". Let me give > you some examples, I enjoy listen to the music while driving. When I am > working or reading, I cannot stand listening to the same song even at the > lowest volume. When it's hot, I love the rain to come but when I play tennis > outdoor, I do not want it to rain. Umm, let say when I see something > attractive, as Cybele post about 20 difficulties for humans, it's hard not to > desire or give in. At times, I wish I am not seeing them because lobha is so > fast, quick and sticky in grasping the objects. > About the blood, some will faint when they see even a drop of blood, I do not > really like to see it but when I see it, the blood is the blood. I do not > feel it desirable or undesirable. Some people love to see flowering trees > in spring, some prefer to see a colorful fall. I feel suffocated wearing > tight shirt, some people really like to wear it. So are "desirable and > undesirable" quality are objects of individual affection? Is there a neutral > object as well? > > Since all vipaka citta and cetasika as well as all rupa are abyakata dhamma. > Desirable or undesirable quality seems to be as part kusala or akusula. I am > not clear about this. From my thinking visual object is visual object, like > or dislike depends on one's accumulation. Dear Num, Objects can be pleasant or unpleasant, and the experience of them is vipaka, result of kamma, but our like and dislike of them depend on our accumulated inclinations. As Ven. Narada remarks in A Manual of Abhidhamma, under Objects, that the sight of the Buddha is repulsive to a heretic. However, seeing a Buddha is kusala vipaka, but the dislike is akusala citta. You give examples of situations, but to know what object is experienced through which door we have to be more precise. There are countless moments of hearing different sounds, and who knows when hearing is kusala vipaka and when akusala vipaka? The thinking about it afterwards is not vipaka, it thinks of concepts. When it is said, a pleasant object or unpleasant object it refers to realities. The Atthasalini, under derived rupas, gives examples of pleasant and unpleasant objects: pleasant odour is desirable smell, unpleasant odour is undesirable smell. Nice is desirable taste, nauseous is undesirable taste. Someone wears a nice but heavy chain, through eyes a pleasant object, but through the bodysense an unpleasant object. What about the different objects experienced in hell planes and in heavenly planes? In the human plane there are both pleasant and unpleasant objects, we cannot always find out: vipakacitta passes so rapidly, and when we think about it, our personal inclinations come in. I find it already difficult enough to know what visible object is, that what appears through the eyes. it is not a concept of it I am bound to think of after the seeing. If someone shouts at you the sound is an unpleasant object, since it is produced by akusala citta, but you may be patient and have understanding of realities. Not necessary to dislike it. I heard such a good reminder on tape of Acharn Sujin: if we want to accumulate the perfection of patience, we should seize every opportunity to cultivate it, in our immediate surroundings. I hope you have a nice vacation in Canada, Nina. 6717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]tadarammana, registering, and kamma. op 20-07-2001 07:45 schreef Erik op Erik: > I have a question expanding somewhat on Herman's question on > votthapanna (determinging consciousness), as well as how votthapana, > javana, and tadarammana all hang together in terms of how kamma is > created. > I do recall I didn't find any > clarification on how votthapana, the javana cittas, and tadarammana > all relate to one another within the same vithi. >Nina: In this case the preceding citta conditions the following one by way of anantara paccaya, proximity condition. > Okay, here's my question. Votthapana, as far as I can tell, is what > determines the nature of the object such that it becomes known as > something kusala or akusala, so when the javana cittas arise, > followed by tadarammana, this is where the kammic sankharas are > created in the sankharakhanda. Is this correct? Nina: As I explained to Hermann, vothapanacitta is ahetuka kiriyacitta, it is neither kusala nor akusala, nor vipaka. It determines the object, just for a moment and then passes immediately, it is different from kamma. Because of conditions akusala javana cittas or kusala javana cittas follow in that sense-door process. Then in a following mind-door process there are again akusala cittas or kusala cittas, depending on conditions. During javanacittas we accumulate inclinations to kusala or akusala, and when there are conditions there can be the performing of kusala kamma or akusala kamma at the moments of javana. Kamma produces vipaka later on. As to tadarammana cittas, arising after the javanacittas, these are just two more moments of vipaka, produced by the kamma that also produced the sense-cognition in that process. It can arise only in the sensuous planes of existence, and only with regard to cittas which are not jhånacittas but cittas experiencing sense objects. This has to do with being involved with sense objects, and thus, there are conditions for kamma to produce tadarammana cittas, vipakacittas that "hang on" to the sense object experienced in that process. , no, this is not so precise. Sankharakkhandha are all cetasikas, except feeling and remembrance. Kom summarized the different meanings of sankara in different contexts: sankharakkhandha, sankhara dhamma and abhisankhara in the Dependent Origination. It is difficult for all of us, we can so easily mix up different categories. Do you have this post, if not, do ask again. Eric: Also, is votthapana > similar in function to sanna in this sense, or are they just another > way of saying the same thing, meaning, does sanna subsume the > santirana and votthapana cittas? Is this where the "marking" of the > arammana within the vithi occurs, or am I all wet on this? Nina: no, votthapanacitta is not similar to sanna as to function. Sanna accompanies each citta, it marks or remembers the object. Eric: As you can hopefully see, I have quite a bit of confusion on the > exact moment when the kusala/akusala/abyakata kamma is "planted" (for > lack of a better word) in the sankharakhanda. My original guess has > been that tadarammana, which is performing the function > of "registering," is necessary for a sankhara to be created, > and that this is, again from my limited guesswork, conditioned by the > previous javana cittas, meaning, that if the process of javana aborts > prior to completing (such as the five javana cittas that occur and > then are interrupted near the moment of death), that there is > no "registration" of the kusala/akusala/abhyakata kamma at all? Nina: Just before death there may or may not be tadarammanacitta. When you use , you probably mean, wholesome or unwholesome qualities that have been accumulated. Eric: In other words, from my faulty recollection from "Abhidhamma in Daily > Life," at the moment of death the process is too weak to take it > past five javana cittas, and the vithi is interrupted, meaning, that > tadarramana never has a chance to "register" the result, meaning > there is no kamma created at all if the vithi is aborted prior to the > completion of the seven javana cittas PLUS the result being > registered by tadarramana. Nina: These five javana cittas before death are weak, but they are conditioned by the kamma that will produce the next rebirth. As I said, they may or may not be followed by tadarammanacittas. It seems you assume these cittas to perform a function they do not have. Eric: To recap in the simplest terms: is tadarammana necessary to register > kamma, or is it the jaavna cittas that perform the function of > creating kamma? Nina: No, tadarammanacitta does not register kamma, it is just vipaka, experiencing for two more moments the sense object that was experienced in that same process. When kamma is performed through body, speech or mind it is at the moment of javana, but I cannot pinpoint in which process. Have a fruitful stay in Bangkok with good discussions. Hoping to hear about your discussions with Khun Sujin, Nina. 6718 From: Victor Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 11:41pm Subject: Re: Study/Practice Hi all, > There is no self - that is the illusion formed by the rapid > change and the different elements doing their > functions. If interested, you might want to refer to Ananda Sutta, To Ananda http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html Metta, Victor 6719 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Dear Tadao, This would have been a good recap of the 'Samatha vs. Vipassana' thread. I think it's a good metaphor. Actually it reminds me a lot of Ajahn Chah's style of instruction. Ajahn Chah's way of speaking was very informal and conventional most of the time. Taken out of context his comments often sound contradictory and/or even adhamma. Still I personally think he was a great monk (for what my opinion's worth). I do understand that you're evaluating one comment and not his entire practice. Thanks again for all your really excellent posts. mike --- ppp wrote: > You CANNOT > CURE your headaches > just by taking aspirines. Assited by your doctor, > you have to find > what the real cause of your headaches is, and have > to find a medical > treatment which can eradicate the underlying cause > of the headache. > There are a lot of people who are happy with having > less > headache without finding its cause. However, there > are also > people who would like to understand the real cause > of the headache > despite the fact that he/she may continuously suffer > from the > headache. If one combines both approaches, then, it > would be > nice. If, however, one think that by taking > aspirines every day, > one CAN eventually cure one's headache, then, he is > fooling himself. > tadao 6720 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 1:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity Dear Jon, For sure, I think discernment is the key here. Is it really kusala, or does it just feel good? How could anyone know without having heard and understood the Dhamma? Lobha (even for kusala) especially can be accompanied by the most blissful feelings. Easy (and tempting!) to mistake these for kusala. mike --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Yes, if only we were able to tell the difference > between kusala and > akusala by knowing the characteristic of each, > rather than only being able > to guess at it by thinking in terms of the situation > (eg 'I'm studying > dhamma, so it must be kusala'). 6721 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 1:23am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Erik, Robert Epstein, And Anders Honoré How are you? According to Gotama the Buddha, Sañña does participate when consciousness is taking nibbana as its stimulus. I will provide Suttams references for this. First things, first. There is the Suttam support for Abhidhamma which confirms that sañña is inserapable from every consciousness- (a sabbacittasadharana cetasika). The Suttam is Section 53, Upaya Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, within Khandha Samyuttam, Khandha Vaggo, Samyutta Nikayo. The paragraph is as follows. "Yo, bhikkhave, evam vadeyya– `ahamaññatra rupam aññatra vedanaya aññatra saññaya aññatra sankharehi viññanassa agatim va gatim va cutim va upapattim va vuddhim va virulhim va vepullam va paññapessami'ti, netam thanam vijjati. Shortened Translation "Monks, whoever might thus talk about consciousness's happenings without matter, without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, that talk does not make sense." Full Translation "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." (Last night, due to my sleepiness, I provided a shortened translation of the quoted Pali. Tonight, I included a full translation. But do not throw away the shortened translation yet! Some readers may find the full translation to be a bit challenging. They could first read the shortened version. With that understanding, they could find the full version eaiser to read.) Now the main point is, Gotama the Buddha taught that,without memory (sañña) no consciousness happens. Erik asked: " How can sanna perform its function when there is nothing to mark, Nibbana being unconditioned? I haev yet to see any satisfactory explanation of this,..." I will try to answer Erik's questions with some Suttam references. My explanation may or may not be satisfactory to Erik, but my main purpose is not to satisfy anyone, but to provide orthodox Theravada texual evidences on the matter. Let us assume that a living awakener such as an Arahant is taking imageless or signless nibbana as a stimulus with one of resultant transworldly consciousnesses (lokuttara vipaka cittani). Even though nibbna is the primary stimulus, he or she, being in a waking state, is, at least, aware of his or her own body. His consciousness is exposed to perceptual stimuli as well as nibbana. In short, his memory does not go redundant when dealing nibbana. As visual consciousness deals with sights, mental consciousness (mano viññana) deals with dhammaramana (concepts). Here, I use the term 'concept' to mean both real phenomena (paramattha dhamma) and conventions or labels (samuti dhamma). Now, as nibbana is a signless concept, conceptual memory (dhammasañña) dealing with it does not have to mark the unavailable signs. But, nothing should prevent memory to note the very fact of nibbana having no signs. Otherwise, how would the Buddha be able to tell us about the singless nibbana. Suttam for the term 'dhammasañña' is Section 56, Upadanaprivattana Suttam, Upaya vaggo, Khanddha Samyuttam, Khanddha Vaggo, Samyutta Nikayo. In short, Gotama the historical Buddha taught that memory does process signless nibbana. So the answer to Erik's question is that memory performs the function of noting the fact of nibbana having no signs. Erik wrote: "What I'd like to understand is how the Abhidhamma can possibly support this contention, because by reason alone it entails the absdurd consequence that Nibbana is somehow conditioned! How could it be otherwise if sanna is a part of the mix? Sanna by definition requires someTHING to mark, and the act of "marking" immediately creates a this/that, subject/object (Nibbana as object, citta as subject) dichotomy. And nowhere is there any "mark" (other than anatta) that applies to Nibbana, and how can one possibly perceiev the existence of a mere absence of greed, hatred, and delusion?" When memory (sañña) processes a face, for example, only memory is conditioned or changed by the face, not the other way round. Memory is changed in the sense that it now carries the image of the face. But the face does not carry memory, so it does not have to change on account of being processed by memory. Similarly, when memory processes singless nibbana, only memory is changed or conditioned by nibbana because it now carries the signlessness of nibbna. Nibbana carries nothing. Memory is variable while nibbana remains constant. If memory creates a dichotomy by distinguishing between nibbana and citta, or nibbana and samsara, or signs and signlessness, what is wrong with that? Now, Suttam evidences for the nature of memory conditioned by the signlesss mind concentration (animittam cetosamadhim paticca ekattam) can be found in Sections 182 and 183 of Culasuññata Suttam, Suññata Vaggo, Upripannasa Pali, Majjimanikayo. According to Culasuññata Suttam, memory at this level is empty of worries based on lower level memories, but it carries only worries related to the physical body. So sañña is okay with signless mind or signless nibbana. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- <> wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > > > > The Theravada do say that nibbana is an object of citta > > > > (consciousness). It is the object of magga-citta and > > > > Phala-citta. > > > > This is said in total ignorance, but: is it possible that nibbana > is the object > > of consciousness in terms of focus in advanced practice, but that > it is not > > actually cognized, identified, or perceived by that consciousness? > > Your contention dones't sound at all ignorant to me. Nor to acharyas > like Master Vasubandhu, who also questioned how Nibbana, lacking all > marks, can possibly be "cognized" by citta, which by definition has > sanna as a component among the sabba-citta-sadharana cetasikas. How > can sanna perform its function when there is nothing to mark, Nibbana > being unconditioned? I haev yet to see any satisfactory explanation > of this, and yet if we read what Khun Sujin says: > > "Cakkhu-vinnana-citta does not arise with lobha, dosa, moha or any > other sobhana-cetasika. Cakkhu-vinnana-citta arises with only seven > cetasika, namely phassa-cetasika, vedana-cetasika, sanna-cetasika, > cetana-cetasika, ekaggata-cetasika, jivitindriya-cetasika and > manasikara-cetasika. These seven cetasika are the sabba-citta- > sadharana-cetasika, the cetasika that arises with all citta. The > citta cannot arise without these seven cetasika. No matter which > kind of citta, akusala-, kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, lokuttara-citta > or any citta whatever, would have to arise concurrently with these > seven cetasika. These sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika are the > annasamana-cetasika, or cetasika that conform with whatever they > arise with. Concurring with akusala-citta, the seven sabba-citta- > sadharana-cetasika are akusala; with kusala-citta, they are kusala > etc." > > To recap the key point here: "No matter which kind of citta, akusala- > , kusala-, vipaka-, kiriya-, ***lokuttara-citta*** or ***any citta > whatever***, would have to arise concurrently with these seven > cetasika." > > Very clearly lokuttara cittas have sanna using this definition from > the Abhidhamma. What I'd like to understand is how the Abhidhamma can > possibly support this contention, because by reason alone it entails > the absdurd consequence that Nibbana is somehow conditioned! How > could it be otherwise if sanna is a part of the mix? Sanna by > definition requires someTHING to mark, and the act of "marking" > immediately creates a this/that, subject/object (Nibbana as object, > citta as subject) dichotomy. And nowhere is there any "mark" (other > than anatta) that applies to Nibbana, and how can one possibly > perceiev the existence of a mere absence of greed, hatred, and > delusion? Given there are NO, as in, zero, zip, nada, nil, kein, > nichivo conventional marks that pertain to Nibbana, how can sanna > possibly perform any function of "marking" the Nibbaba as arammana > without any samutti aspect there to mark? Can sanna possibly mark > what doesn't even exist conventionally? > > > This would allow nibbana to remain non-objective while still being > a focus for > > attainment. At the realization of nibbana, the focus upon it would > be abolished > > [even though it has never been seen] and nibbana would be realized > as the cognizer > > rather than the object of cognition. > > I really like your probing this issue. It's something I've always > questioned in terms of the notion that lokuttara cittas > somehow "cognize" Nibbana. > > > This would in a sense mean that nibbana remains an idea of a sort, > even for > > advanced practice right up until the time of actual attainment when > all > > idea-images are dissolved in the realization of being the source > rather than the > > receiver of consciousness. > > > > Is this off the wall? > > Robert, you have elucidated what is an extremely subtle point here, > and I thank you for bringing it up. > > Cheers, > Erik 6722 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 1:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Dear Suan, I'm afraid I don't have a translation of the Udana and though I might be able to sort it out eventually, the Pali's over my head--any chance of an English translation? Many thanks, as always, sir. mike --- Suan Lu Zaw wrote: > > > Dear Mike, Robert, Gayan > > How are you? > > I think I have found a Suttam quite relevant to > anihilation > (vibhava). Although this Suttam is different from > the one you > remember, it explicitly describes anihilation of > five aggregates. > > So the statement is even more stronger than > anihilation of > dukkha. You know what I mean! > > The Suttam is > > Section 55 Udana Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, Khandha > Samyuttam, Khandha > Vaggo, Samyuttanikayo. > > The sample lines come like these below. > > "rupam vibhavisatiti yathabhutam pajanatia .... > "viññanam vibhavisatiti yathabhutam pajanatia." > > It also has the noun forms such as " rupassa vibhava > ..." > > I hope this message satisfies your Dhamma Wish to > some degree! > > > With regards > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > 6723 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 1:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Dear Suan, Sorry--I was reading too quickly. I see you referred to the Samyutta Nikaya (please excuse the Pali!) which I do have in English (PTS). Unfortunatlely the books and chapters are in English only--can you please help me to locate this? Thanks again... mike --- Suan Lu Zaw wrote: > The Suttam is > > Section 55 Udana Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, Khandha > Samyuttam, Khandha > Vaggo, Samyuttanikayo. 6724 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Kom, Hear, hear! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: She often reminds us that it is a wise person who sees the good in others and the faults in oneself [so that one may correct it]. [This is how one grows one's kusala]. When one thinks of the faults of others, it is more than likely that akusala is rising. 6725 From: Derek Cameron Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:27am Subject: Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? --- "m. nease" wrote: > I do have in English (PTS). Unfortunatlely the books > and chapters are in English only--can you please help > me to locate this? Hello again, Mike, I have the Bhikkhu Bodhi/Wisdom translation. The Samyutta Nikaya is divided into 56 samyuttas, which are grouped together into 5 major sections. This one is in overall samyutta number 22, which is the first samyutta within the third major section. Within that samyutta, it's the 55th sutta. Clear as mud? Derek. 6726 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:37am Subject: Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Dear Mike, The entire sutta is long, so I will only put B. Bodhi's translation of the = section (I think) here: From SN, Kandhavagga, Khandhasamyutta, Section 55: "Bikkhu, though someone might say: 'Apart from form, aprt from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known = the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion' - that is impossible. [endquote] There is no comment associated with this section's translation. kom --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Suan, > > I'm afraid I don't have a translation of the Udana and > though I might be able to sort it out eventually, the > Pali's over my head--any chance of an English > translation? > > Many thanks, as always, sir. > > mike > 6727 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:51am Subject: Cybele's Cyber Carnival Dear Cybele & friends, I'm back to noise, crowds, heat, humidity and A COMPUTER ;-))) I'm catching up on posts in the middle of the night......another set of stories and concepts about situations and yet the realities (read those tedious namas and rupas ) are just the same:-)) I'm glad to catch up with all your input on dsg and in particular this thread with Kom about meditation and practice...this really is the crux of the matter. In my jet-lagged stupor, I doubt I'll be able to add anything, but let's see: --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > All the point can simply be reduced to one - > > Buddha attained enlightenment through meditation, sitting crosslegged and > contemplating the four foundations of mindfulness. > This we are taught - whether in Theravada, or Tibetian, or Zen, or Pure land > Schools, even the Nichiren use meditation as a tool in the practice. > Now how do you assume that you can dismiss meditation and realize whatever > is only studying the texts and conceptual thought. > This is my issue and it seems to me that I am pretty straightforward to ask > it clearly. Yes your point here and your comments about how you understand the Satipatthana Sutta are very clear. As you also suggest, your views are shared by the majority of Buddhists (and dsg too, I'm sure) and it seems we must be very arrogant to read/interpret/understand in any other way! There has been a lot of discussion about bhavana (translated as meditation) and about vipassana and samatha bhavana. I won't repeat this here and won't start quoting as I know this isn't what you want to hear. Let me just repeat that for me, whatever I read of the Buddha's teachings, I have confidence that he is talking about the development of satipatthana and about the realities (discussed in such detail in the abhidhamma) to be understood at the present moment. So when I read the sutta about going, standing, stitting, lying down, breathing, I understand him to be saying 'while going, standing etc develop awareness of all those namas and rupas..' If he were talking to me, he might say 'now Sarah, while hiking in the snow, entertaining in Sussex, listening for hours to your aunts, semi-sleeping huddled up on the long flight, visiting your father's grave on the Isle of Wight, develop awareness of seeing, hearing, aversion, mental and bodlily feelings, hardness, softness and so on..' In other words, it's not the 'situation' that counts, but the awareness of realities in what we take for being the situation. So often we get lost in the story about Thailand, the long flight, Sussex, the confrontation with a friend or wife or whatever and forget it's just a story. As i understand it, anytime we take the stituation for being something or real, it shows the wrong view of self again; no understanding of the distinction between concepts and realities. This doesn't mean 'don't think about stories', but while thinking, develop awareness. I think Howard raised some good points about the difference between conventional and absolute truths. the more understanding there is of the latter, the clearer the former become for what they are. Bruce will comment that when we read or hear 'develop awareness' it sounds like there is a self that can do something. All this means when I write it is 'by reading this, hopefully there will be conditions for understanding and awareness to arise and know reality more clearly'. It is a subtle point I know. Everyone knows here that hey can disagree or ask for clarifications i know! Cybele, as you may have gathered, I like to have my life pretty organised....and conventionally speaking, I'm quite disciplined. So I have a time each day for Tai Chi and for yoga and for spending with Jonothan, reading posts, eating lunch, work, teaching etc (having to get up very early to fit them all in :-)) ) so I certainly understand why some people like to sit quietly and contemplate or meditate for a fixed time in a day. However, I don't have any idea that any of my activities are more conducive for sati at any given time (not even my dhamma reading) and I don't undertake any of them for that purpose. I also find that sati nearly always arises at unexpected times such as when I'm listening to a boring aunt and there is aversion or when I'm half asleep on the plane with a baby crying behind me. If there is any idea of limiting the time or thinking a certain time is more conducive to sati, to my mind it shows an aspect of clinging to self again. Sometimes we mix the cause and result. We think it was the situation (meditation in Sri Lanka or the Indian trip with Khun Sujin) that conditioned the awareness now. In fact it must have been the wise considering and awareness at those times and other times that have made it possible for awareness to arise now. I agree with you that studying theory and detail just for the sake of studying is quite useless...one could be studying any subject. But if we read a little about nama and rupa and reflect on the clinging to self and wrong view of self at this moment, it can help to intellectually break down those wrong views. Slowly awareness develops which is aware of seeing and visible objects and other realities at any moment with no idea of a story or situation. Cybele, for me, this is 'freedom' and the true meaning of 'solitude' or silence'..learning to live alone with one reality and realising that life exists in just this moment. Whether we sit to meditate or read ADL, it is conditioned at that moment. It's true that you may sit to meditate and there may be sati or you may open ADL and have aversion;-), who knows? Either way there are realities arising that can be known and they are very unpredictable, don't you find? This is the way, fo me, that meditation or practice or bhavana makes life easier and simpler without any rules at all. And so the more awareness develops, the less it matters what country one is in, what one's job or routine is or how others are acting. Let's see if these reminders to myself as much as to you or anyone else condition any sleep.....;-)) Thanks again for your smiles, hugs and kind words...I so enjoyed our time together and do hope this doesn't sound arrogant , condescending or 'I know it all' at all...it's not meant to, I promise! love, Sarah p.s Bruce et al, well I do remember taking a lunch for A.Sumedho and A.Chah in Hampstead, London and having a discussion.....I also remember Sumedho telling him that I studied abhidhamma with Nina and K.Sujin and I led a regular dhamma discusion group at my house (tho' I certainly wouldn't have called myself an abhidhamma teacher). The conversation sounded like one we could well have had.....;-)) Actually what I remember most from the visit was my dismay when A.Chah mixed the apple crumble and custard I prepared for desert in with the curry that I had spent the morning cooking. He assured me (through Sumedho's translation) that the combination was delicious....but I don't remember slaving over a cooker since (as Jonothan will confirm!!). And yes...there were lots of nice smiles that day too, Cybele.... 6728 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 3:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Dear Erik, I haven't forgotten this reply to me, though my response now (3a.m!!) maybe outdated or foggy!! --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > Erik, when we are concerned to get rid of 'dukkha' doesn't this > show the > > clinging? > > To follow the same logic, when the Buddha taught a path for > eradicating dukkha that he was promoting clinging. Good point! Perhaps it depends on what we mean by 'getting rid of dukkha'. As I understand the Buddha, he was talking about the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities not worthy of being clung to and to thus to be understood and eventually eradicated. I don't have your earlier post, but if I remember, you were talking about getting rid of what is unpleasant in life. I may be remembering (over a thousand posts ago) incorrectly. Anyway it suggested a clinging to the pleasant and aversion (wanting to get rid of) the unpleasant..Very natural, but not the way of understanding. > > In an absolute sense all realities are unsatisfactory (dukkha), even > > the blissful ones, and for this reason we need to know and develop > detachment > > not just from those we find unpleasant but from whatever is > conditioned now. > > Of course. However you miss one important point. When akusala arises > to such a strong degree it wipes out all your lofty aspirations, what > then? Unless we are arahants, there will be dukka, very much so in > the conventional sense. How do we deal with this? This was the excellent question i wanted to come back to.....not easy at all! The question really is, do we have a choice?? As I just mentioned to Cybele, it seems we can make a choice whether to meditate or pick up ADL. In fact, the realities (including the efforts and intentions) are conditioned already. You may have planned to take an LSD trip and then found yourself on quite another trip to Bkk instead!! Do we know what the reality will be at the next moment, let alone in one hour's time or one week's time? However beautifully we lay our plans, can we avoid dukkha (in the sense you mean of that which is unpleasant in life?). We cannot control or help the vipaka which is conditioned and though we may see the danger of aversion occasionally, it is bound to arise because of the deep-seated ignorance and attachment which we care a lot less about. It seems when life is tough that WE need to do something and to have a strategy ready to deal with it. Conventionally, this is fine....some sit on a cushion, some go on a trip or whatever kind, some take a hike or listen to a dhamma tape. In reality, no self, no control, no strategy, no trip...just realities to be known even at these times, however/whatever/wherever conditions lead us. > > There have to be ways of dealing with dukkha *right now* that let you > simply cope until the strength to overcome them fully through > insight. This (to my way of thinking of course) is the idea of self again that can DO something!! It's not a matter of doing something with wrong view and then later developing insight. Instead, whatever 'doing' is happening anyway, insight has to begin to develop from the very beginning.... >And insight will never have cause to arise when the mind is > constantly overwhelmed by the hindrances. Impossible! I disagree. As Cybele learnt recently, even in a big depression that seems to last a long time, there can be moments of awareness...the hindrances are realities that must be known too...but this has been discussed at length. Erik, please don't underestimate the power of sati as that will be a condition for it not to arise. Of course it is very brief and nothing to get excited about at all imho! > > "Drugs" is an awfully broad category, Sarah. ........ > Furthermore, it becomes possible to expose deep layers of > psychological holding and release them through this practice, which > is how I have used them the past twenty years or so. In the case of > MDMA, I consider this a perfect adjunct to practice, because it is so > versatile. I've enjoyed all the discussion on this topic. 2 quick comments only I promise: 1. As Dan and others have suggested, like 'sitting meditation' in order to develop more sati, this suggests the idea of a 'situation' as being more conducive rather than understanding reality conditioned now already.. 2. If akusala already is seen to arise to such a strong degree, why would one want to 'expose' any 'deeper layers of psychological holding'...? How hard does one have to knock one's head to know it's painful? I'm also thinking of Tom A's difficult experiences with TM and trying to work out what went wrong. Why not just accept that what has happened has been by conditions (including vipaka) and accumulated wrong view and defilements and just 'let go' or understand the thinking and other realities conditioned now? > > For example, if you know what you're doing you can use this as a very > nice way to spend several hours meditating on the Bhrahma viharas, > streaming tears of gratitude for your teachers and sending tidal > waves of metta to everyone around you just a quickie....no tears in metta or karuna as you know Erik....tears are with dosa, though some may disagree! Metta and karuna never arise with unpleasant feeling. --and if that isn't > extraordinarily high kusala I don't know what is. Those effects carry > over long beyond the session itself, and can leave one with something > like a "benchmark" for what really super-powerful metta feels like. > That practice was one of the practices that helped me get rid of > scads of ragged, nasty karma and even more anger I'd been carryng for > years (therapists were using MDMD to help patients get past painful > emotional blockages until it was made illegal in the '80s to further > the revolting War on Some Drugs), I don't doubt the possible therapeutic uses and find it interesting. But as I mentioned to Cybele, in terms of developing any bhavana, one needs to be clear on cause and result....but others have discussed this a lot more eloquently than I could now... Erik, I'm looking forward to meeting you in Bangkok very much indeed. I find your posts and studies and deep study to be very inspiring and extremely unusual. I also have a lot of confidence that you have the sincerity in your practice and appreciation of abhidhamma to really develop a lot of wisdom in daily life. I know Khun Sujin will enjoy discussing all these areas with you and you'll be a great asset to the group in Bkk as you are to us on dsg. Best wishes for your stay... Sarah > 6729 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 9:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Hi, Herman: Thank you for sharing your feeling of "being rootless" with us. I have the exactly same feeling as you do. I've been away from Japan for the last 30 years. In whichever countries I lived (Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc.), I have been very well taken of, and having nice/pleasant lives (Yes, Canada, Victoria is a very nice plase to live. You can ask Derek about Vancouver.) But regradless of the place I have lived (including my native country, Japan), I have never refrained myself from having a feeling that I do not really belong to this place/ society/country. In reality, we may not belong to any particular place. As the Buddha says, the world we live is full of fires, where we shouldn't feel cosy or "being settled". tadao 6730 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 9:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Male/female perception (was Re: Ajaan Chaa - Christine Hi, Herman: With respect to cerebral laterality, as we know that the left and right brains have different functions. As you rightly pointed out, the left brain is good at analytical processing, whereas the right brain is good at gestaltic processing. About for 95% of the population, the language processing faculty is (to a large extent) housed in the left brain. As for the differece in brain betwen males' and females', it hasn't been a well studied subject, the main reason being that the issue is too "political. One psychological study I am aware of involves a matrix and incidental memomry recall. You create a matrix where in some of the slots you place simple charcters, such as "a", "g", "p", "q", etc., randamly. After showing the matrix for a brief duration of time, you will ask your subjects about the characters and the locations of these characters they have seen on thu matrix. Interstingly, the female subjects have a better recall of the characters themselves, while the male subjects have better recall of the "locations" of these characters. The indication is that females are better at linguistic processing, while males are better at visual/spacial processing. One reason why females are good at language processing may be attributed to the fact that, unlike males', their brain function is less lateralized so that they can use both left and right brain in language processing. This fact can be supported by the another fact that males have much higher ratio than females in developing aphasia. Locailized cerebral lesions may easily affect language capability if they take places in so-called Broca's and Wernicke's areas. And in the case of males, having a lesion in such vital area necessarily leads to the dvelopment of aphasia, whereas it is not necessarily the case with female patients. This finding, as mentioned above, suggests that lateralization of felame brain is less dominant than that of the male brain. In sum, if you say that male and female brains differ from each other, I think, it is the right statement. But we really do not know yet to what extent those two types of brain differ from each other. (I am very sorry for discussing something which is not really related to the Dhamma.) tadao 6731 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Practice and Ajahn Chah Hi, Mike: I agree with what you are saying concerning Archan Chah. tadao 6732 From: ppp Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Kom and Mike: In this real society we live (especially, if one lives outside the so-called Buddhist countries), there aren't many opportunities of having kusala cittas. Any opportunity of having kusal cittas is precious. tadao 6733 From: ppp Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Hi, Sarah: Thank you for your very clear argumentation in responding to Eric's practice/feeling/etc. tadao P.S. My sleep has been improving. (Besides the weight-loss, mouth-taping, I've been finding that St. John wart is a very promising herbal remedy. Since taking it regulary, I've started feeling more refreshed in the morning.) 6734 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Yahoo Groups Mail My inbox runneth over, Howard (that is, I'm not having that problem at the moment). I did have a problem with an internet worm virus for the last couple days (Code Red)--maybe it affected Yahoo's servers somehow (though I think that's a long shot). Best wishes, sir... mike --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > As happened once before, I have noted that > for the last day or so I > have received almost no mail from Yahoo groups, > whereas many e-mails are > available to be read at the web site. Is anyone else > in the same boat? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > 6735 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Thanks, Derek--I think I can get there from here! mike --- Derek Cameron wrote: > --- "m. nease" > wrote: > > I do have in English (PTS). Unfortunatlely the > books > > and chapters are in English only--can you please > help > > me to locate this? > > Hello again, Mike, > > I have the Bhikkhu Bodhi/Wisdom translation. The > Samyutta Nikaya is > divided into 56 samyuttas, which are grouped > together into 5 major > sections. This one is in overall samyutta number 22, > which is the > first samyutta within the third major section. > Within that samyutta, > it's the 55th sutta. > > Clear as mud? > > Derek. > > 6736 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Suttam For Anihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Re: Nibbana anihilation? Excellent, Kom--thanks! mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Mike, > > The entire sutta is long, so I will only put B. > Bodhi's translation of the = > > section (I think) here: From SN, Kandhavagga, > Khandhasamyutta, Section > 55: > > "Bikkhu, though someone might say: 'Apart from form, > aprt from feeling, > apart from perception, apart from volitional > formations, I will make known = > > the coming and going of consciousness, its passing > away and rebirth, its > growth, increase, and expansion' - that is > impossible. [endquote] > > There is no comment associated with this section's > translation. > > kom > > --- "m. nease" > wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > > > I'm afraid I don't have a translation of the Udana > and > > though I might be able to sort it out eventually, > the > > Pali's over my head--any chance of an English > > translation? > > > > Many thanks, as always, sir. > > > > mike > > > > --- 243181214009248125169154072026132253136158139046209 wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Mike, Robert, Gayan > > > > > > How are you? > > > > > > I think I have found a Suttam quite relevant to > > > anihilation > > > (vibhava). Although this Suttam is different > from > > > the one you > > > remember, it explicitly describes anihilation of > > > five aggregates. > > > > > > So the statement is even more stronger than > > > anihilation of > > > dukkha. You know what I mean! > > > > > > The Suttam is > > > > > > Section 55 Udana Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, Khandha > > > Samyuttam, Khandha > > > Vaggo, Samyuttanikayo. > > > > > > The sample lines come like these below. > > > > > > "rupam vibhavisatiti yathabhutam pajanatia .... > > > "viññanam vibhavisatiti yathabhutam pajanatia." > > > > > > It also has the noun forms such as " rupassa > vibhava > > > ..." > > > > > > I hope this message satisfies your Dhamma Wish > to > > > some degree! > > > > > > > > > With regards > > > > > > > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > > > > > > 6737 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Determining consciousness Herman --- Herman wrote: > Dear Nina and Jon, ( no intention to exclude others I am unaware of) > > Thank you sincerely for the time and effort taken to answer the > question. I often feel that I lack time. There are so many things > which beg for attention, and the days consist of choosing this, > rejecting that as objects for further consideration. Yes, this is life. But even the 'choosing' is just another moment of intention conditioned by our previous accumulations (and other factors). So there is no more control over this moment (ie. to express it in convventional terms, over 'what we choose') than over the fact that, say, we like one flavour but not another. Also, at times when we our lives are 'busy' it is an opportunity to see whether the realities that arise from moment to moment are in truth any different from the realities that arise at other times, or whether it is just our perception that this is so. Jon 6738 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Considering Bruce --- bruce wrote: > hi nina > > thanks also for this very appropriate quotation, although i must admit > that > i'm stumped by the exhortation at the end to "apply" and "be aware", as > though there were a choice in the matter.... Yes, it does appear that way to us, and conventional language of course is couched in terms that reflect this. But we are told that the reality is that there is not in fact any choice. So we can consider in our daily life whether such a state is consistent with our moment to moment experiences (but we should not expect an immediate resolution to the question). There is more likely to be consideration or useful reflection (=application?) if we have the benefit of a reminder to that effect. Reminders can come in any shape or form, from others or from ourself. A person wishing to give a reminder to someone may use conventional language for the purpose, because that after all is how we are accustomed to expressing ourselves, even when referring to absolute realities. Jon 6739 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:47am Subject: Choice (wasRe: Determining consciousness --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Also, at times when we our lives are 'busy' it is an > opportunity to see > whether the realities that arise from moment to moment are in > truth any > different from the realities that arise at other times, or > whether it is > just our perception that this is so. > > ______ Thanks for this Jon. This is what I wanted to say in several posts - except I didn't have the right words to express it. robert 6740 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Derek An interesting (and provocative) post. I hope you don't mind me coming in. I would like to raise one or two questions. --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Hi, Erik, > > Yes, this is an interesting issue. I think there are two distinct > questions. > > Question 1: Is the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta the only way? > > Firstly, as I said, ekaayano maggo (the claim it makes for itself) > doesn't really mean only way. > > But secondly, it's obviously not even the only way taught in the Pali > Canon. > > The way the Buddha himself practiced included concentration > meditation (samaadhi), following which he directed his purified and > concentrated mind to knowledge of three things -- (i) his past lives, > (ii) the passing away and reappearance of beings, and (iii) the > destruction of the aasava-s. That was his method. How many people > today even mention that that was how he practiced, let alone follow > it? When you say 'that was his method', do you mean that (i) and (ii) are necessary for enlightenment? To put it another way, in his teaching of the path, does he teach that these are necessary for enlightenment? I think we need to separate the narrative of the Buddha's personal journey from his teaching as to what is essential for development of the path. (The same applies as regards the fact that the Buddha was sitting cross-legged at the time he attained enlightenment.) We should also remember that the goal he taught was enlightenment, not supreme Buddhahood - there is a considerable difference between the two, wouldn't you agree? > Even the most basic statement of the Buddha's prescription for > practice, the Noble Eightfold Path, includes sammaa samaadhi (right > concentration) as well as sammaa sati (right mindfulness). Yes. So the question is, how is samma samadhi of the eightfold path to be developed, according to the texts? Without looking into this, we can't draw any conclusion. Jon 6741 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Searches of the list --- bruce wrote: > i'll try to do a search before i go to see if anything hs been written > on > intention...may give up halfway, though, as these yahoo archive searches > can take forever to yield nothing.... Bruce, you might find it easier to do your searches on the eGroups archive (but bear in mind that posts there go back only to February of this year). Jon. eGroups archives: http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup Userid: dsgarchives Password: metta 6742 From: bruce Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Considering thanks jon, for the reminder! bruce At 10:40 2001/07/23 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > --- bruce wrote: > hi nina > > > > thanks also for this very appropriate quotation, although i must admit > > that > > i'm stumped by the exhortation at the end to "apply" and "be aware", as > > though there were a choice in the matter.... > > Yes, it does appear that way to us, and conventional language of course is > couched in terms that reflect this. But we are told that the reality is > that there is not in fact any choice. So we can consider in our daily > life whether such a state is consistent with our moment to moment > experiences (but we should not expect an immediate resolution to the > question). > > There is more likely to be consideration or useful reflection > (=application?) if we have the benefit of a reminder to that effect. > Reminders can come in any shape or form, from others or from ourself. > > A person wishing to give a reminder to someone may use conventional > language for the purpose, because that after all is how we are accustomed > to expressing ourselves, even when referring to absolute realities. > > Jon > > 6743 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajaan Chaa - Christine Christine (and Cybele) Christine, I'd like to 'second' everything Cybele says (well, almost everything ...) and encourage you to come in with any comments or questions whatsoever, and not to be intimidated by any perception that your ability or knowledge is in any sense lacking. We all stand to benefit from sincere posts of any perspective. Cybele, thanks for giving encouragement to others. Jon --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Christine > > Much appreciation. You are always very helpful with your links. > And regarding your feeling of inadequacy to join the discussions, please > > don't wait to be fluent in Pali to come over. > Dhamma is the ral issue and if you are seeker, you are MOST WELCOME. > Don't feel intimidate with the erudition here, they don't bite I can > assure > you. > We need a bit of equilibrium here, too much masculine vision, too much > Yang, > we need to temper it with a bit of feminine Yin. > Please just come in and share with us your practice and your > perplexities. > I know you are brave enough. Jump aboard. > By the way, very interesting the discussions on Buddhism and depression > but > as you can see I have been a bit engrossed lately. ;-) > > Love > > Cybele > > > >>Hi All, > > > >Thank you Cybele, Tadao, Bruce for your discussion of the relative > >merits of the style and content of the teachings of Ajahn Chah. I > >benefit immensely from all the posts on this list, though I lack the > >ability to join in the debates. Even unpopular or unsupported views > >teach me a lot, because I spend much time with Google seeking out > >further information to help me understand. > >This time I found a link which may be familiar to all of you, but > >which may be helpful to any others like myself still struggling > >across the misty flats with the mountain ahead yet to be climbed! > > > >http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm > > > >Three or four complete books here by Ajahn Chah, as well as others. > > > >metta, > > > >Christine 6744 From: ppp Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study/Practice Robert and Skin: Thank you very much for the great discussion on satipatthana. Hi, Robert, I liked your quotation from Netti-Pakarana. Unfortunately, our (ignorant) minds/societies do not want to see things in their true forms. Thanks, again, for the good conversation/reminder. tadao 6745 From: Erik Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:21pm Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > I don't have your earlier post, but if I remember, you were talking about > getting rid of what is unpleasant in life. Right, which is dukkha. The entire point of the path. > I may be remembering (over a > thousand posts ago) incorrectly. Anyway it suggested a clinging to the pleasant > and aversion (wanting to get rid of) the unpleasant..Very natural, but not the > way of understanding. Okay, I'm gonna dive in on a point I've been meaning to raise here for some time. We talk about "self" and no controlling, so on, so forth. But CONVENTIONALLY we have to talk at this level. I see so much semantic contortionism here on DSG in HOW things are spoken of, that to even speak of something a certain way conventionally implies a view of self, etc. NO NO NO!!! Language is the problem here, I think, Sarah, and getting hung up on language is to miss the point entirely--it's actually getting caught in names & terms--views, again! Really. I consider this point a vital one. We can easily (and indeed must) at some level speak about conventional self, dukkha at the conventional level, practice at the conventional level: that to do this is to get that. When this arises, that arises; when this ceases, that ceases. There is no other way to even discuss practice using language, and while it is vital to understand WHAT is "self" and what is clung to as self, there can be a degree of overkill on semantics (which I have so often observed here) that makes communication very difficult if too much emphasis is given to the way things are phrased rather than their deeper meaning. Language is just another fabrication! We must let even language go! > > In an absolute sense all realities are unsatisfactory (dukkha), Not ALL realities, Sarah. All CONDITIONED realities. :) > > Of course. However you miss one important point. When akusala arises > > to such a strong degree it wipes out all your lofty aspirations, what > > then? Unless we are arahants, there will be dukka, very much so in > > the conventional sense. How do we deal with this? > > This was the excellent question i wanted to come back to.....not easy at all! > The question really is, do we have a choice?? As I just mentioned to Cybele, it > seems we can make a choice whether to meditate or pick up ADL. In fact, the > realities (including the efforts and intentions) are conditioned already. You > may have planned to take an LSD trip and then found yourself on quite another > trip to Bkk instead!! Do we know what the reality will be at the next moment, > let alone in one hour's time or one week's time? However beautifully we lay our > plans, can we avoid dukkha (in the sense you mean of that which is unpleasant > in life?). We cannot control or help the vipaka which is conditioned and though > we may see the danger of aversion occasionally, it is bound to arise because of > the deep-seated ignorance and attachment which we care a lot less about. What I was driving at here is that we need strategies for effectively dealing with dukkha in its many aspects, and Right View is simply one tool among many. What is certain is that insight alone is not enough to get rid of dukkha until arahata magga. If anyone believes otherwise they are in for one very rude and nasty shock! The Sabbasava Sutta for this reason details many other methods the Buddha expounded for terminating the asavas. > It seems when life is tough that WE need to do something and to have a > strategy ready to deal with it. Conventionally, this is fine....some sit on a > cushion, some go on a trip or whatever kind, some take a hike or listen to a > dhamma tape. > > In reality, no self, no control, no strategy, no trip...just realities to be > known even at these times, however/whatever/wherever conditions lead us. I see we're coming into accord now--at least I think... let's continue... > > There have to be ways of dealing with dukkha *right now* that let you > > simply cope until the strength to overcome them fully through > > insight. > > This (to my way of thinking of course) is the idea of self again that can DO > something!! Sarah, S-E-M-A-N-T-I-C-S again!!! :) :) :) There is no need to think of "self" other than conventionally when talking about cetana, yet, there is a conventional self that acts volitionally. While there are no sentient beings, never have been, never will be, there is no Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, there are conventionally composed entities that suffer, there are conventionally composed entities that serve as a valid basis for the label Buddha to expound that way out of suffering, there are conventionally composed doctrines that demonstrate the way out of suffering, there are conventionally composed entites that have eradicated sakkayaditthi, vicikicca, silabbataparamasa, etc. etc., and yet none of these fabrications have ever truly existed in the first place! :) > >And insight will never have cause to arise when the mind is > > constantly overwhelmed by the hindrances. Impossible! > > I disagree. As Cybele learnt recently, even in a big depression that seems to > last a long time, there can be moments of awareness...the hindrances are > realities that must be known too... Okay, that was a tad dogmatic-sounding. I meant this more generally, that when we're overwhelemed by suffering we're ususually too wrapped up in notions of "self" and pain to think of much else. I look into my own mind for this, nowhere else. And of course we can have moments of insight arising when overwhelmed by dukkha, in fact, that is one reason I have used psychedelics in the past--to expose deeply-held psychological garbage, extraordinarily painful garbage, so I could work with it more directly. That is why at least 50% of my "trips" were what many people consider "bad" trips, and I deliberately sought them out because this is where the heavy work of releasing that holding happens (and boy has it ever been effective in helping identify and terminate various hindrances, etc.). > > "Drugs" is an awfully broad category, Sarah. > ........ > > Furthermore, it becomes possible to expose deep layers of > > psychological holding and release them through this practice, which > > is how I have used them the past twenty years or so. In the case of > > MDMA, I consider this a perfect adjunct to practice, because it is so > > versatile. > > I've enjoyed all the discussion on this topic. 2 quick comments only I promise: > 1. As Dan and others have suggested, like 'sitting meditation' in order to > develop more sati, this suggests the idea of a 'situation' as being more > conducive rather than understanding reality conditioned now already.. But some situations ARE more conducive to insight. Please, Sarah, think carefully about what you're saying here. What you say sounds so fatalistic, as if there is no reason at all to seek out favorable conditions for practice! Whoa!!! Why then, is there emphasis on finding a queit place for meditation, why is there so much emphasis in the Visuddhimagga, for example, on establishing the appropriate external conditions conducive to meditation? Please explain your position to me in light of what the Vis. III.28 speaks of regarding conditions for meditation. Are these or are these not "situations?" Further, your reasoning here and elsewhere suonds dangerously close to the very serious wrong view rejected by the Buddha that there is no possibility of controlling our mind in the present via cetana. This was explicitly refuted by Lord Buddha as a deadly view held by some teachers, that we are 100% the product of all past actions and have no volitional control. Volition is EVERYTHING. Please show me a Sutta that says otherwise. In fact, our volitional "free will" is the only tool we have to get out of here. Otherwise we may as well toss up our hands and forget practice altogether, because nothing "we" do will ever make a difference. While it is agreed we can't control vipaka, we can (and MUST, if we're serious about the path) strive to purify the mind with directed practice, even practices that will by definition partake of notions of "self"--until at least sotapatti-magga-nana. That is the entire point of bhavana. We need heaps of merit to even get rid of self-view in the first place, and I believe in placing the horse before the cart here and will simply restate the stock formula of dana, sila, bhavana, in order, one laying the foundation for the next, knowing that "self view" at some level is ALWAYS present until bhavana is developed to the degree sakkayaditthi is finally terminated. > 2. If akusala already is seen to arise to such a strong degree, why would one > want to 'expose' any 'deeper layers of psychological holding'...? How hard does > one have to knock one's head to know it's painful? There is a lot more to this, Sarah. One thing I found most helpful was that psychedelics stripped away the more conventional layers of ideation and exposed the roots of particular afflictions more readily by granting access to layers of the subconscious normally hidden from view--like drawing back a curtain on the inner workings of the conceptualization-machine we call the mind. I think of, for example, my arch-nemesis kukuccha, which through a number of sessions I was able to pinpoint at the root, so that now, I can catch it (mostly, still not always) while it is still tiny, before it snowballs into something that drags me into the muck for minutes, hours, or longer. Do you realize what a coup this has been in my own practice? That whiny little bugger (kukuccha) has been the source of more trouble in my practice than nearly any other hindrance, because I'm moody and broody by accumulation, and that brooding has interfered with practice to a very high degree. So to be able to spot this hindrance in its lair has enabled me to terminate it with extreme prejudice where it lives moer often than not now. > I'm also thinking of Tom A's > difficult experiences with TM and trying to work out what went wrong. Why not > just accept that what has happened has been by conditions (including vipaka) > and accumulated wrong view and defilements and just 'let go' or understand the > thinking and other realities conditioned now? Because that's only one way among many to effect the same aim, and not necessarily the best approach for everyone. > > For example, if you know what you're doing you can use this as a very > > nice way to spend several hours meditating on the Bhrahma viharas, > > streaming tears of gratitude for your teachers and sending tidal > > waves of metta to everyone around you > > just a quickie....no tears in metta or karuna as you know Erik....tears are > with dosa, though some may disagree! Metta and karuna never arise with > unpleasant feeling. I was speaking of tears of gratitude for my teachers and the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and the kindness of all my "mothers" (the Tibetans have such a sweet practice of seeing all beings as having been your mother in a previous existence as a way of recalling their kindness and terminating aversion to even those we consider enemies, by recalling their kindness in raising us, taking care of us, etc.-- which matches the Suttas where the Buddha said there are few beings in all samsara who hafe not at some time been our mother, father, brother, sister, etc.). If you believe tears of gratitude and love are a form of dosa, then I can only say I hope you sometime have the experience of knowing what such tears of love and joy feel like. There are few pracftices which are ther equal of meditation on the Bhramaviharas. And why, I must ask, is there practicelly NO emphasis here given to this indispensible practice? It's not like it's even controversial from the Theravada perspective, and all I can do is encourage people study the Visuddhimagga IX and meditate, meditate, meditate on the Four Immeasurables until such tears of joy and gratitude have the conditions to arise. > Erik, I'm looking forward to meeting you in Bangkok very much indeed. I find > your posts and studies and deep study to be very inspiring and extremely > unusual. "Extremely unusual." Heh. Not from my perspective, which is that the Dhamma is no more than a raft, meaning, that anything that may have benefit, even if it falls outside what most people are familiar with, are to me worthy of exploration, because I refuse to take anyone's word on anything unless I can verify it for myself through experimentation and careful testing, like testing gold--"burning, cutting, grinding." This proclivity to experiment is, I think, a function of nearly- insatiable curiosity, and I'm willing to try anything that may be of benefit (read conencted with the Goal in some way), even tangentially, as a way of getting to the bottom of things, the whys and wherefores, in other words. This is the very reason I'm studying the Abhidhamma, because I see it as a way to "reverse-engineer" many aspects and experiences of the Dhamma that have arisen in the course of my own practice, as well as wishing to have a technical way to unpack, in detail, how and why certain practices perform the functions they do, and how they all hang together. One of the monks in my bikkhu-sangha once called me the "mad scientist" because of my love of this sort of experimentation. It has held me in good stead so far, and I see no reason to stop playing, since there is so much yet for me to learn. > I also have a lot of confidence that you have the sincerity in your > practice and appreciation of abhidhamma to really develop a lot of wisdom in > daily life. I know Khun Sujin will enjoy discussing all these areas with you > and you'll be a great asset to the group in Bkk as you are to us on dsg. I truly look forward to meeting you too Sarah, and Jon, and Robert, and of course Khun Sujim. My best wishes to all, and let the debates continue!!! ... :) :) :) 6746 From: Erik Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]tadarammana, registering, and kamma. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Eric: To recap in the simplest terms: is tadarammana necessary to register > > kamma, or is it the jaavna cittas that perform the function of > > creating kamma? > Nina: No, tadarammanacitta does not register kamma, it is just vipaka, > experiencing for two more moments the sense object that was experienced in > that same process. When kamma is performed through body, speech or mind it > is at the moment of javana, but I cannot pinpoint in which process. > Have a fruitful stay in Bangkok with good discussions. Hoping to hear about > your discussions with Khun Sujin, Nina. Nina, thank you so much for clarifying this point to me. I got caught one time having to try to explain the exact point at which kamma was created and I fumbled the ball and assumed that the 'registration" function of tadarammana was they key to "registering" kamma. So then it IS javana. Great! >Sankharakkhandha are all cetasikas, except feeling and remembrance. >Kom summarized the different meanings of sankara in different >contexts: >sankharakkhandha, sankhara dhamma and abhisankhara in the Dependent >Origination. It is difficult for all of us, we can so easily mix up >different categories. Do you have this post, if not, do ask again. I would very much like to find this post from Kom. Does anyone have the post #? Again, so many thanks for your clarification. 6747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity Mike Yes indeed. Pleasant feeling is perhaps the least reliable of guides here! What I also find interesting is that, although this knowledge (ie. knowledge by direct experience of the characteristic of kusala vs. akusala mind states) comes to us as part of the Dhamma, it is in fact knowledge that remains extant during periods when the Dhamma is no longer alive. It is this that is the basis for the development of samatha. Only when this knowledge has been developed to a certain degree can the training of 'taking a meditation subject' comes into play, as far as I understand it. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > For sure, I think discernment is the key here. Is it > really kusala, or does it just feel good? How could > anyone know without having heard and understood the > Dhamma? Lobha (even for kusala) especially can be > accompanied by the most blissful feelings. Easy (and > tempting!) to mistake these for kusala. > > mike > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Yes, if only we were able to tell the difference > > between kusala and > > akusala by knowing the characteristic of each, > > rather than only being able > > to guess at it by thinking in terms of the situation > > (eg 'I'm studying > > dhamma, so it must be kusala'). 6748 From: Erik Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:42pm Subject: Sañña Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana PART (1) Re: Nibbana anihilation? --- <> wrote: > Dear Erik, Robert Epstein, And Anders Honoré > > How are you? Speaking of my conventional self, great, and even moreso thanks to your amazingly lucid reply. What you have just managed to do is to clarify for me (in a way I hadn't expected at all) something I have been churning through for about three years now. I wish I could express my gratitude in words, but words fail. In short, I can only say, "WOW!" Thank you thank you thank you!!!! :) :) :) 6749 From: Erik Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:58pm Subject: Re: Considering --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Bruce > > --- bruce wrote: > hi nina > > > > thanks also for this very appropriate quotation, although i must admit > > that > > i'm stumped by the exhortation at the end to "apply" and "be aware", as > > though there were a choice in the matter.... > > Yes, it does appear that way to us, and conventional language of course is > couched in terms that reflect this. But we are told that the reality is > that there is not in fact any choice. In whose reality, Jon? The reality of those sectarianis the Buddha explicitly refuted this view in the Tittha Sutta? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-062.html "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that...whatever a person experiences...is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that...whatever a person experiences...is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief...unchaste...a liar...a divisive speaker...a harsh speaker...an idle chatterer...greedy...malicious...a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views." 6750 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 1:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study/Practice Thanks Tadao, I just reread it. The quotes from the texts are ones that I find useful too. I think I got a bit long-winded, and with a fair dose of the missionary coming out too! I wrote a paragraph and then cut and pasted some old posts -hence the lenghth. robert --- ppp wrote: > Robert and Skin: > Thank you very much for the great discussion on satipatthana. > Hi, Robert, I liked your quotation from Netti-Pakarana. > Unfortunately, > our (ignorant) minds/societies do not want to see things in > their true > forms. Thanks, again, for the good conversation/reminder. > tadao > 6751 From: Derek Cameron Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:15pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Dear Jon, Please do join in. I'm glad I'm not the only one on the planet who's interested in the sutta-s! On the question of what is necessary for enlightenment ... when the Buddha gave talks, he didn't, as far as I know, say: "Practice X is the *only* way to nibbaana." What he did say was: "A monk does practice X, and nibbaana follows." So, no exclusivism, and no mention of necessity. Now, while the path of a Buddha is different from that of an arahant, the Buddha does *not* talk about acquiring the three knowledges as being only for himself. In some places, he describes the monk's path as including the acquisition of the three knowledges (e.g., in the Saamaññaphala Sutta, DN 2). In fact, in other places the monk's path includes the development of even more supernormal powers, including the ability to walk on water and fly through space (e.g. SN 51.11). Mahaa Kassapa had developed these powers, apparently with the Buddha's approval (SN 16.9). They are all the result of concentration practices (Iddhipaada-sa.myutta, SN 51). In other places, however, it is the cultivation of the 4 brahmavihaara-s that is given as the intervening step between the Noble Eightfold Path and nibbaana (e.g., The Simile of the Cloth, MN 7). And in other places, the Noble Eightfold Path is presented in a bare- bones form, without any additional attainments (e.g. MN 141). And, as we all know, in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta (MN 10) the Buddha says that its methods alone (formal and informal sati practice) are enough to bring one to nibbaana -- apparently without a concentration practice. This omission of concentration seems to represent a later stage in the Buddha's teachings. Elsewhere, he says that lack of respect for concentration meditation is one of the five factors that will lead to loss of knowledge of the true Dhamma (SN 16.13), a deterioration which was apparently happening even during the Buddha's own lifetime. > how is samma samadhi of the eightfold path to be > developed, according to the texts? Right concentration is always defined as the 4 jhaana-s. Except, of course, in those places where it's defined as the 8 jhaana-s! Derek. 6752 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 3:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]tadarammana, registering, and kamma. Dear Erik, --- Erik wrote: > I would very much like to find this post from Kom. Does anyone have > the post #? It wasn't a post from me, but Num. Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6384 kom 6753 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: The meaning of Equanimity Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > What I also find interesting is that, although this knowledge (ie. > knowledge by direct experience of the characteristic of kusala vs. akusala > mind states) comes to us as part of the Dhamma, it is in fact knowledge > that remains extant during periods when the Dhamma is no longer I am quite interested in hearing this part. You sound as if the development of tranquil meditation up to the Jhana level is no longer possible. How do I reach this conclusion? > alive. It > is this that is the basis for the development of samatha. Only when this > knowledge has been developed to a certain degree can the training of > 'taking a meditation subject' comes into play, as far as I understand it. > I am somehow got caught in the loop that developing Satipathanna must be enormously harder than developing Samatha vipassana because of the all the conditions involved (and developing Satipathana is still possible nowadays). There are still ascetics out there who don't care much about the 5 sensualities. What would prevent them from developing such practices? kom 6754 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 3:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (wasRe: Determining consciousness Rob Thanks for your comment. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > Also, at times when we our lives are 'busy' it is > an > > opportunity to see > > whether the realities that arise from moment to > moment are in > > truth any > > different from the realities that arise at other > times, or > > whether it is > > just our perception that this is so. > > > > ______ > > Thanks for this Jon. This is what I wanted to say in > several > posts - except I didn't have the right words to > express it. > robert If I may take the opportunity to expand a little further. This is something I find I need frequent reminding of myself, since much of my working life is spent rushing to get an item done in time, and suffering one setback after another in the process. When we are busy or flustered (and dosa of various kinds is predominant), it seems that any sort of useful reflection must be the last thing possible, but i have learnt that with constant study one can come to see at a thinking level at least level that the realities at those moments are really nothing more than the usual suspects in a slightly different guise (ie. combination), including good old seeing and visible object, hearing and sound etc. Jon 6755 From: Ken Howard Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:28pm Subject: Re: Hello dsg --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Ken, > Dear Sarah, Thank you for your kind welcome. Its very nice to be saying hello to you after reading your messages for so long. I live in coastal south Queensland where my days are occupied with Dhamma study, surfing and housework. The surf here is excellent on its good days so I needed to find dsg to accommodate my other great love to the same degree (better as it turned out). As for housework; since my wife does the bread-winning, thats OK as well. I must say, taking part is more stressful than lurking. I have the accumulations of a shy recluse and writing on the most difficult of subjects -- for mass scrutiny -- is outside the job description. Kind regards Ken Howard 6756 From: Christine Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:35pm Subject: Re: 'Ajaan Chaa - Christine' Cybele Dear Cybele, Thank you for your warm and welcoming encouragement. I'll take your advice and contribute when I can, and keep learning from all of you. I have enjoyed the Buddhism depression list too - thankfully they are a quiet group - I think dhammastudygroup must have the busiest member/post ratio on Buddhism on the net! metta, Christine --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Christine > > Much appreciation. You are always very helpful with your links. > And regarding your feeling of inadequacy to join the discussions, please > don't wait to be fluent in Pali to come over. > Dhamma is the ral issue and if you are seeker, you are MOST WELCOME. > Don't feel intimidate with the erudition here, they don't bite I can assure > you. > We need a bit of equilibrium here, too much masculine vision, too much Yang, > we need to temper it with a bit of feminine Yin. > Please just come in and share with us your practice and your perplexities. > I know you are brave enough. Jump aboard. > By the way, very interesting the discussions on Buddhism and depression but > as you can see I have been a bit engrossed lately. ;-) > > Love > > Cybele 6757 From: Christine Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: 'Ajaan Chaa - Christine' Jon Dear Jon, Many thanks - this is a very supportive list and I have noticed that even the occasional disagreements are generally resolved peacefully,- this makes it a safe place to 'take a risk.' Thank you to you Jon and Sarah (and many others) for making it so. metta, Christine --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Christine (and Cybele) > > Christine, I'd like to 'second' everything Cybele says (well, almost > everything ...) and encourage you to come in with any comments or > questions whatsoever, and not to be intimidated by any perception that > your ability or knowledge is in any sense lacking. We all stand to > benefit from sincere posts of any perspective. > > Cybele, thanks for giving encouragement to others. > > Jon 6758 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 4:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello dsg Dear Ken, --- Ken Howard wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thank you for your kind welcome. Its very nice to be saying hello to > you after reading your messages for so long. Good to have you and so encouraging to know there are lurkers out there like you (not that we'll let you lurk anymore.;-)) > > I live in coastal south Queensland where my days are occupied with > Dhamma study, surfing and housework. The surf here is excellent on > its good days so I needed to find dsg to accommodate my other great > love to the same degree (better as it turned out). As for housework; > since my wife does the bread-winning, thats OK as well. Wait til Jon reads this..he'll be green with envy..you have his dream lifestyle worked out!! Gold Coast? > > I must say, taking part is more stressful than lurking. I have the > accumulations of a shy recluse and writing on the most difficult of > subjects -- for mass scrutiny -- is outside the job description. An interesting topic in itself.... my problem is usually lack of time...when I write, I'm mainly considering the person(s) I'm writing to and forget the mass scrutiny..... you certainly write very well and are obviously very articulate and have considered A LOT! Look f/w to plenty more... (and we many just come and test out your surf one day;-)) I think Christine lives in Brisbane (right Christine?)..yr closest dsg-er to date....Herman is somewhere in NSW and anthony B (lost for now) in Syd. Best rgds, Sarah p.s. Herman..best wishes to you and 'your' Tori for the Sept wedding....does she have any interest in dsg? Enjoying yr posts, btw. A 6759 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele's Cyber Carnival Dear Sarah Terrific post! Glad to know that despite your certainties and assertiveness about the practice you are open to a frank dialogue without feeling I am just trying to 'challenge' or provocate for the sake of it or that I am a meditation compulsive-obssessive what I am not: while I highly appreciate the value of it in my inner research - simply could be my past accumulations... ;-) I am just trying to clarify the issue what for me seems legitimate and if I were not seriously interested in Abhidhamma or considering various approaches and the viewpoint and experience of others I would not waste time and energy struggling to communicate and stabilish a honest interaction. For me this is an object to investigate as another. Some consider me quite wild and aggressive in my straightforwardeness but I keep my mind very open and my attitude is unbiased as much as possible. And I am not 'one-sided' or prejudiced in my discussions whether I 'like' or 'dislike' my interloctor. My 'beliefs or convictions' are very much permeable and the intention is pretty much going beyond and expanding my possibilities of understand. And as it showed many times I don't have 'preferences' whether discussing with people I am fond of or others I am not so attuned; for the sake of objectivity. Hope you and the group can understand my position. This list for me is a device for awareness and I value my participation. My dhamma friends are the only 'family' I have and I am not sentimental about it but sincere. I will reply when I manage to Sarah because I have a bit of mails responses delayed - I don't want to hurry up but ponder carefully. Welcome back to full activity and many smiles for you. :-))))))))) LOve Cybele > >Dear Cybele & friends, > >I'm back to noise, crowds, heat, humidity and A COMPUTER ;-))) >I'm catching up on posts in the middle of the night......another set of >stories >and concepts about situations and yet the realities (read those tedious >namas >and rupas ) are just the same:-)) > 6760 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Ajaan Chaa - Christine' Jon Dear Jon > > > > Christine, I'd like to 'second' everything Cybele says (well, almost > > everything ...) and encourage you to come in... What, what 'ALMOST everything'???!!! My brainwashing program must be faulty somewhere, my hidden agenda is converting everybody to my inclinations and become a sort of professional 'guru' selling very expensive 'enlightenment workshops'! heheheheheheheheheheh!!!! LOve Cybele with any comments or > > questions whatsoever, and not to be intimidated by any perception >that > > your ability or knowledge is in any sense lacking. We all stand to > > benefit from sincere posts of any perspective. > > > > Cybele, thanks for giving encouragement to others. > > > > Jon > > > 6761 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Ajaan Chaa - Christine' Cybele Dear Christine Glad to know you decided to jumb aboard and 'navigate' together in this cybersamsaric ocean. We all learn through sharing our views and feelings and the contributions of everybody is valuable. Looking forward to your share of knowledge/experience and please don't be shy. Love Cybele > >Dear Cybele, > >Thank you for your warm and welcoming encouragement. I'll take your >advice and contribute when I can, and keep learning from all of you. >I have enjoyed the Buddhism depression list too - thankfully they are >a quiet group >- I think dhammastudygroup must have the busiest member/post ratio on >Buddhism on the net! >metta, >Christine > > >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > > Dear Christine > > > > Much appreciation. You are always very helpful with your links. > > And regarding your feeling of inadequacy to join the discussions, >please > > don't wait to be fluent in Pali to come over. > > Dhamma is the real issue and if you are seeker, you are MOST WELCOME. > > Don't feel intimidate with the erudition here, they don't bite I >can assure > > you. > > We need a bit of equilibrium here, too much masculine vision, too >much Yang, > > we need to temper it with a bit of feminine Yin. > > Please just come in and share with us your practice and your >perplexities. > > I know you are brave enough. Jump aboard. > > By the way, very interesting the discussions on Buddhism and >depression but > > as you can see I have been a bit engrossed lately. ;-) > > > > Love > > > > Cybele > > > 6762 From: Christine Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:37pm Subject: Re: Hello dsg - Ken Hi Ken, May I also welcome your 'beginning to post'. I, too, am mostly a lurker but with Cybele, Jon and Sarahs' encouragement I am feeling more confident. I live and work south of Brisbane in the Beaudesert Shire - bush not beach - I live on ten acres. We seem to share some of the same accumulations. :-)) Look forward to more of your posts...... Cheers, Christine --- <> wrote: > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Dear Ken, > > > > Dear Sarah, > Thank you for your kind welcome. Its very nice to be saying hello to > you after reading your messages for so long. > > I live in coastal south Queensland where my days are occupied with > Dhamma study, surfing and housework. The surf here is excellent on > its good days so I needed to find dsg to accommodate my other great > love to the same degree (better as it turned out). As for housework; > since my wife does the bread-winning, thats OK as well. > > I must say, taking part is more stressful than lurking. I have the > accumulations of a shy recluse and writing on the most difficult of > subjects -- for mass scrutiny -- is outside the job description. > > Kind regards > Ken Howard 6763 From: Erik Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:28pm Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Elsewhere, he says that lack of respect for concentration meditation > is one of the five factors that will lead to loss of knowledge of the > true Dhamma (SN 16.13), a deterioration which was apparently > happening even during the Buddha's own lifetime. Oooh, Derek, you're a man after my own heart. :) > > how is samma samadhi of the eightfold path to be > > developed, according to the texts? > > Right concentration is always defined as the 4 jhaana-s. Except, of > course, in those places where it's defined as the 8 jhaana-s! But we still have to admit a bit of wiggle-room for those khanika jhanas, no? It is still a fact that many have awakened outside of formal sitting meditation practice. This cannot be denied. Then again, I suspect there are some who use this as justification for avoiding the very practices demonstrated unequivocally to lead to awakening, and as such run the very real risk of squandering this precious and extremely rare human birth of leisure and fortune--a birth even rarer for the fact that we also have the best of all of conditions to have met with the teachings (and teachers) of the Way. 6764 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Suan Lu Zaw wrote: >>So the answer to Erik's question is that memory performs the function of noting the fact of nibbana having no signs.<< Dear Suan, Please correct me if I'm wrong [and I mean that literally, not as an expression], but it seems to me that what you are saying is that Nibbana 'itself' [which also makes it sound like an object rather than an awakened state] is not actually the object of consciousness, but the concept of it is the object of consciousness both before and after it has been experienced. Nibbana itself being signless, would have no way itself of being apprehended, even while being 'experienced' as one's own state. But memory forming a concept in order to mark and communicate the presence of Nibbana, would refer to the concept as a pointer towards Nibbana itself. It also seems to me that every experience is exactly like this in truth, because no experience actually is apprehended as an object while being experienced, and ultimately all experiences are likewise 'signless'. Only objects have something to apprehend, and even this is only done by maintaining the concept of the object for a duration of more than a moment and turning it into a remembered or known object beyond the immediate experience. Thus, if I am not missing something which I hope you'll point out to me, this would be a proof that all experiences actually partake of the same signlessness and primordial reality of Nibbana, and that Nibbana is not only our very and only actual nature, outside of concepts of one kind or another including memories, but it is also the very and only signless reality of all existence. Robert E. 6765 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:26pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drinking (was: Re: To Kom (and also Robert)1) --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Epstein > > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 8:08 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drinking (was: Re: To Kom (and also > Robert)1) > > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for all of your helpful and interesting responses. I am not too > familiar > > yet with Theravadin terminology, but I take it that a sotapanna is an > enlightened > > person of 'stream entrant' level? And that anagami or arahant denotes > someone who > > has destroyed even the subtler seeds of self? > > If I remember, an anagami is a non-returner (will be reborn in the some > heavenly abode and there attain Parinibbana), whereas an arahant (Arhat) has > eradicated all the fetters and will enter Parinibbana, upon the death of > their physical bodies. thanks, Robert E. ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 6766 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drinking (was: Re: To Kom (and also Robert)1) Dear Robert, Thank you for your helpful and concise explanations [I may study conciseness from you], and for the link site. I appreciate the information. Robert E. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- > > > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for all of your helpful and interesting responses. I > > am not too familiar > > yet with Theravadin terminology, but I take it that a > > sotapanna is an enlightened > > person of 'stream entrant' level? And that anagami or arahant > > denotes someone who > > has destroyed even the subtler seeds of self? > > > > I think it is interesting that the sotapanna could still have > > attachment, although > > a positive, sort of pure attachment, in the form of love for > > her husband, and that > > the arahant would have transcended even this positive relation > > to others, and be, > > I suppose, 'completely free' of either positive or negative > > attachments or > > aversions. > > > > If you could say a bit more about the conditions of these > > different attainments, > > it would be of great interest to me. If this is too redundant > > for the group, I > > would be happy to be referred to an appropriate passage on the > > web. > > > > Nice again to be in your company! > > > > ____________________ > Dear Robert E. > Thanks for the questions. > > Just to reiterate, Nibbana is not consciousness, it is the > object of mind. When vipassana wisdom is highly developed, the > mind of the ordinary person changes to the mind of the Noble > One. This change is called path moment. It is followed > immediately by path fruition. Both have nibbana as their object. > The four paths to enlightenment are stream-winner, once > returner, non-returner, and fully-enlightened or Perfect One > (the Arahant). There are ten fetters keeping us from full > enlightenment: > > 1) Wrong view of self > > 2) Doubt about the Buddha's teaching > > 3) Clinging to rules and rituals > > 4) Sensual desire > > 5) Hatred > > 6) Desire for fine material existence > > 7) Desire for immaterial existence > > (Fine material existence is an existence where there is still > body. Immaterial existence is where there is only nama. So both > of these fetters (6 and 7) refer to craving for types of > heavenly existence.) > > 8) Pride > > 9) Restlessness > > 10) Ignorance > > The First Path, the stream-winner path-moment erases the first > three fetters; for the Second Path, the once-returner > path-moment weakens the next two fetters; for the Third Path, > the non-returner path-moment erases the two weakened fetters; > and for the Fourth Path, the arahatta path moment erases the > five remaining fetters. > > The first path also eradicates all stinginess; the sotapanna is > naturally generous. > > The sotapanna's attachment to husband of wife can be just as > impure as ours. What they don't have anymore is attachment to > selfview, they cannot see any dhamma as self . > The wisdom developed to see dhammas as they are is gradual, over > lifetimes; the one who attains to nibbana will have no doubt > about this matter according to the teaching. It is deep wisdom > that penetrates to nibbana. > This book mark will take you to a list of websites highly > recommended by the moderators of dhammastudygroup > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > best wishes > robert > > ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 6767 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:36pm Subject: Sorry About Extra "a" : Suttam For Annihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Dear Tadao And Derek How are you? I mistyped "pajanati" as "pajana"tia". Apology for this extra "a" after "pajanati". Derek Thank you for correcting the spelling mistake for Tadao and all of us. Sincerely, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > --- ppp wrote: > > Hi, Suan Lua and Jim: > > What kind of ending is 'pajana"tia"? > > I need your help. tadao > > Tadao, > > I think that final "a" must be a typo. > > Ruupa.m vibhavissatiiti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati > > "He understands as it is: 'Form will cease to exist'" > > Derek. 6768 From: Tori Korshak Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! >Dear Sarah and Erik, (Sarah-glad you made it home safely and what a relief >it must be to have your computer) Thank you for this exchange which I find relevant at the moment. >Okay, I'm gonna dive in on a point I've been meaning to raise here >for some time. We talk about "self" and no controlling, so on, so >forth. But CONVENTIONALLY we have to talk at this level. I see so >much semantic contortionism here on DSG in HOW things are spoken of, >that to even speak of something a certain way conventionally implies >a view of self, etc. NO NO NO!!! Language is the problem here, I >think, Sarah, and getting hung up on language is to miss the point >entirely--it's actually getting caught in names & terms--views, >again! Really. I consider this point a vital one. > >We can easily (and indeed must) at some level speak about >conventional self, dukkha at the conventional level, practice at the >conventional level: that to do this is to get that. When this arises, >that arises; when this ceases, that ceases. Yes! >There is no other way to even discuss practice using language, and >while it is vital to understand WHAT is "self" and what is clung to >as self, there can be a degree of overkill on semantics (which I have >so often observed here) that makes communication very difficult if >too much emphasis is given to the way things are phrased rather than >their deeper meaning. Language is just another fabrication! We must >let even language go! And more yes! >Further, your reasoning here and elsewhere suonds dangerously close >to the very serious wrong view rejected by the Buddha that there is >no possibility of controlling our mind in the present via cetana. >This was explicitly refuted by Lord Buddha as a deadly view held by >some teachers, that we are 100% the product of all past actions and >have no volitional control. > >Volition is EVERYTHING. Please show me a Sutta that says otherwise. >In fact, our volitional "free will" is the only tool we have to get >out of here. Otherwise we may as well toss up our hands and forget >practice altogether, because nothing "we" do will ever make a >difference. In The Wings to Awakening Thanissaro Bhikku writes: The fact that the kammic process relies on input from the present moment means that it is not totally deterministic. Input from the past may place restrictions on what can be done and known in any particular moment , but the allowance for new input from the present provides some room for free will. It seems that in fact everything we can consciously choose to do must be within the scope of this present kamma-how we choose to practice and how we live our lives (obviously not excluding conditions we have no control over). This does not negate teachings on anatta, but paradoxically is the means by which we can come to realise the teaching. ...And what , monks, is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech or with the intellect. This is called new kamma... And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path...this is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. S.XXXV.145 Thanissaro continues: The teaching of dependent origination helps to provide more detailed instructions on this point, showing precisely where the cycle of kamma provides openings for more skillful present input. '. >While it is agreed we can't control vipaka, we can (and MUST, if >we're serious about the path) strive to purify the mind with directed >practice, even practices that will by definition partake of notions >of "self"--until at least sotapatti-magga-nana. That is the entire >point of bhavana. We need heaps of merit to even get rid of self-view >in the first place, and I believe in placing the horse before the >cart here and will simply restate the stock formula of dana, sila, >bhavana, in order, one laying the foundation for the next, knowing >that "self view" at some level is ALWAYS present until bhavana is >developed to the degree sakkayaditthi is finally terminated. > >I think of, for example, my arch-nemesis kukuccha, which through a >number of sessions I was able to pinpoint at the root, so that now, I >can catch it (mostly, still not always) while it is still tiny, >before it snowballs into something that drags me into the muck for >minutes, hours, or longer. Do you realize what a coup this has been >in my own practice? Many congratulations on this kusala accomplishment. I think it is good practice to recognise these achievements when they occur as it increases saddha and viriya for you as well as for others. Of course self-delusion is something we always have to be aware of, but with mindfulness, we can catch this as well. >There are few pracftices which are ther equal of meditation on the >Bhramaviharas. Sadhu X 3 Erik for this reminder. >This proclivity to experiment is, I think, a function of nearly- >insatiable curiosity, 'If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We suspend our beliefs and and just observe, just notice.' > and I'm willing to try anything that may be of >benefit (read conencted with the Goal in some way), even >tangentially, as a way of getting to the bottom of things, the whys >and wherefores, in other words. This is the very reason I'm studying >the Abhidhamma, because I see it as a way to "reverse-engineer" many >aspects and experiences of the Dhamma that have arisen in the course >of my own practice, as well as wishing to have a technical way to >unpack, in detail, how and why certain practices perform the >functions they do, and how they all hang together. One of the monks >in my bikkhu-sangha once called me the "mad scientist" because of my >love of this sort of experimentation. It has held me in good stead so >far, and I see no reason to stop playing, since there is so much yet >for me to learn. Thanks for the interesting discussion. Metta, Victoria 6769 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 0:12am Subject: Sañña Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana : To Erik Re: Nibbana annihilation? Dear Erik How are you? Me again. You are very welcome, and I am glad to know that my efforts help. The Buddha's teachings are to help us to become clearer and clearer about reality principles (Dhamma). If my way of presenting them gave you some eye-opening, I as well as you make some progress along the noble way (samma patipada). Due to these meritorious deeds, we could even meet up in Deva Loka before our final awakening and liberation. By the way, your reply came from "Sañña Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana PART (1)". I hope you have already read "Sañña Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana Full Message" as well. Thank you for your kind response to my message. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Erik wrote: > --- 243181214009248125169154072026132253136158139046209 wrote: > > > Dear Erik, Robert Epstein, And Anders Honoré > > > > How are you? > > Speaking of my conventional self, great, and even moreso thanks to > your amazingly lucid reply. What you have just managed to do is to > clarify for me (in a way I hadn't expected at all) something I have > been churning through for about three years now. I wish I could > express my gratitude in words, but words fail. In short, I can only > say, "WOW!" Thank you thank you thank you!!!! :) :) :) 6770 From: bruce Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 0:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello dsg - Ken greetings ken welcome aboard...i understand where you're coming from re: your post below; i go into pure-lurking mode rather often -- but i find that the best way to start participating is just to ask questions about things that are unclear and then try to learn from the responses....there are a lot of people who are willing to share what they know/have learned -- and amazingly for one of these lists, pretty much no one who tries to share what they merely pretend to know :-) .....i'm content having more questions than answers, so this seems to work out well for me.... looking forward to your contributions... mettacittena bruce > > I must say, taking part is more stressful than lurking. I have the > > accumulations of a shy recluse and writing on the most difficult of > > subjects -- for mass scrutiny -- is outside the job description. > > > > Kind regards > > Ken Howard > 6771 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 0:54am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message: To Robert Epstein Dear Robert Epstein How are you? You wrote: "Please correct me if I'm wrong [and I mean that literally, not as an expression],but it seems to me that what you are saying is that Nibbana 'itself' [which also makes it sound like an object rather than an awakened state] is not actually the object of consciousness, but the concept of it is the object of consciousness both before and after it has been experienced." My answer follows. In general, nibbana is the object of consciousness for awakeners at the moment of transworldly resultant consciousness, for example, while they (outside that moment) as well as the non-awakeners may take the idea or concept of nibbana as a stimulus. You wrote: "Nibbana itself being signless, would have no way itself of being apprehended, even while being 'experienced' as one's own state." What do you mean by the phrase " as one's own state"? If you meant that nibbana is a state of one's consciousness, then the Pali texts do not support it. I have refuted Professor David Kalupahana on this point in my research article "Three Abhidhamma Methods Under Bodhiology" on the bodhiology website. Please go there and check it out. You wrote: " But memory forming a concept in order to mark and communicate the presence of Nibbana, would refer to the concept as a pointer towards Nibbana itself." I agree with the above statement. I will discuss your other statements at a later date. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Robert Epstein wrote: > --- 243181214009248125169154072026132253136158139046209 wrote: > > >>So the answer to Erik's question is that memory performs the function > of noting the fact of nibbana having no signs.<< > > Dear Suan, > Please correct me if I'm wrong [and I mean that literally, not as an expression], > but it seems to me that what you are saying is that Nibbana 'itself' [which also > makes it sound like an object rather than an awakened state] is not actually the > object of consciousness, but the concept of it is the object of consciousness both > before and after it has been experienced. > > Nibbana itself being signless, would have no way itself of being apprehended, even > while being 'experienced' as one's own state. But memory forming a concept in > order to mark and communicate the presence of Nibbana, would refer to the concept > as a pointer towards Nibbana itself. > > It also seems to me that every experience is exactly like this in truth, because > no experience actually is apprehended as an object while being experienced, and > ultimately all experiences are likewise 'signless'. Only objects have something > to apprehend, and even this is only done by maintaining the concept of the object > for a duration of more than a moment and turning it into a remembered or known > object beyond the immediate experience. > > Thus, if I am not missing something which I hope you'll point out to me, this > would be a proof that all experiences actually partake of the same signlessness > and primordial reality of Nibbana, and that Nibbana is not only our very and only > actual nature, outside of concepts of one kind or another including memories, but > it is also the very and only signless reality of all existence. > > Robert E. > > 6772 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 1:56am Subject: Re: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana --- Suan wrote: > I have refuted Professor David Kalupahana on this > point in my research article "Three Abhidhamma Methods Under > Bodhiology" on the bodhiology website. Please go there and check it > out. Hi, Suan, I tried to go to your site but couldn't see where to click to view your paper? Derek. 6773 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 2:26am Subject: Re: thailand/west --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > I haven't heard about the drugs or porno in temples yet > but I suppose that will come. Unfortunately so. One official estimated that 10% of monks have sought rehab for drug problems. See Bangkok Post, March 27, 2001 at http://scoop.bangkokpost.co.th/bangkokpostnews/bp20010327/270301_news0 4.html (you'll probably have to cut and paste that link, I think it's too long to create the correct hyperlink). Derek. 6774 From: ppp Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sorry About Extra "a" : Suttam For Annihilation: To Mike, Bob, Gayan Hi, Suan Lua: Don't worry about the type. Derek kindly corrected it for us. Udaana is one of the oldest Pali texts, which tend to have archaic endings. So I thought that what I saw previously was one of those. Thak you for your citation, tadao 6775 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 4:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Derik >> >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > I haven't heard about the drugs or porno in temples yet > > but I suppose that will come. > >Unfortunately so. One official estimated that 10% of monks have >sought rehab for drug problems. See Bangkok Post, March 27, 2001 at >http://scoop.bangkokpost.co.th/bangkokpostnews/bp20010327/270301_news0 >4.html (you'll probably have to cut and paste that link, I think it's >too long to create the correct hyperlink). > >Derek. > Glad to know that your eyes are wide open and you don't need to beautify reality in order to cope. Love Cybele 6776 From: Ken Howard Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 4:40am Subject: Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life --- Erik wrote: > > I'm not sure how far I can go with the gift simile, but perhaps > > it could be said that, while there is satipatthana, the time may be > > right for formal practice -- while there is no satipatthana, we > are > > back to where we need to accept the gift (to listen to the > > Buddha's > > teaching). > > I would agree with this if I understand your meaning correctly. In I can see that by itself, it sounds correct but I can't take credit for that. Those lines were a part of some theorising which I now think was leading nowhere. > > I am wondering if formal practice might be intended for the > disciple > > in whom satipatthana is currently arising strongly and consistently > > (in whom there is, for some considerable time, no notion of self), > > and who is ready for a catalyst or impetus to push him on to the > next > > stage (e.g. of Stream-entry) (?) > >I think this makes a lot of sense. There's no sense putting the cart before the horse. What was most helpful for me is the Tibetan pedagogy called "trang-gye," which is a contraction meaning to "lead out" (of wrong view) and lead in (to Right View). Thank you for the informative explanation which followed this paragraph. But I think we may be talking about two different things. What I had in mind was a technique attributed to the Buddha for shocking his disciples into Stream Entry. For example in the Fire Sermon, the fire metaphor was reputedly chosen to shock a group of monks who had, until they heard the Dhamma, worshipped fire. Their highly developed minds had grasped the Dhamma with right understanding but they needed this little push. And sure enough, they attained even while the Buddha was speaking. So might not such practices as the cemetery contemplations be designed for the same purpose? It is hard to see how they could have been intended for the development of satipatthana; Wouldn't the sight and smell of all those corpses have only akusala reactions in anyone who was not already firmly established in right view? Even jhana meditation, when followed by the insight, `this state too is anicca,dukkha and anatta,' might spark the required disenchantment in someone who had spent countless lifetimes cultivating jhanna. Kind regards Ken 6777 From: Erik Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:13am Subject: Re: thailand/west --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > I haven't heard about the drugs or porno in temples yet > > but I suppose that will come. > > Unfortunately so. One official estimated that 10% of monks have > sought rehab for drug problems. See Bangkok Post, March 27, 2001 at Not just in Thailand, either--in our bikkhu-sangha at least one monk has "gone out" and come back again with exactly such problems ("hard" drugs in other words). I was addicted to alcohol at one point in my life as well, and fought a mean battle against it before defeating it- -which was ONLY possible because of the teachings of the Holy Dhamma and the blessings of my lama. That this sort of thing happens should not be surprising--we all have our kilesas and our battles to fight with these nasty, brutal, and deadly enemies. And we are all addicted at some level, whether to notions of self, views, anger, aversion, etc. I still smoke cigarettes, for example, and based on much experience quitting (I love Mark Twain's quite: "quitting smoking is easy, I've quit hundredds of times!"), I figure the only way I'll ever be able to give it up at this point is anagami-magga-nana, and I've just given up worrying about it much these days. Fortunately I've never found smoking to interfere in the least with Dhamma practice (and actually helps stabilize my wacky brain chemistry and makes meditation a bit easier vis-a-vis the uddhacca thing). And to rationalize (love that addictive thinking! :) :) :), I still have far bigger fish to fry in terms of overcoming the deadliest poison of all: dosa, given I exhibit characteristics the Visuddhimagga associates with "hating temperament." Anyway, to rationalize my lobha, I figure smoking can only kill you once; anger will kill me again and again and again, and my Tibetan "lojong slogans" emphasizes attacking the biggest problems first. Which only makes sense to me--in the 80/20 rule and Pareto analysis (to drag in modern biz-speak into the Dhamma). I recall reading somewhere that something like 75% of the Thai bikkhu- sangha smokes, and I often see a figure of this revered old monk (whose name I asked one shopkeeper but can no longer recall) around BKK here, squatting, holding a big fat cigar. Does anyone recall his name? I found it amusing to see this revered monk smoking en flagrante this way--so shockingly un-PC for many Westerners, who can't comperhend the idea that one can be both a smoker and a sincere spiritual practitioner! :) 6778 From: Christine Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:20am Subject: Re: thailand/west-Derek/slightly related.... Hi Derek and Everyone, Please bear with me through this explanatory paragraph. :-) I didn't make the link you quoted below - not proficient enough with the computer to cut and paste. But I put http://www.bangkokpost.net/ into Google and arrived at the home page. Then clicked on 'Xtra'and then on 'Current Issues', then to 'Dhammakaya Temple' - realised it wasn't what you were alluding to - so, clicked on 'related links' then to 'dhammakaya.org' and somehow got sidetracked into clicking on 'concentration.org(English)', thence to meditation(beginners). (This is a bit like my monkey-mind in meditation - except the computer won't go back to the breath!) My point is that though I never did find the story you were referring to - I ended up being fascinated by 18 Astral bodies etc..... I settled on Theravada as seeming to me to be the least altered since the Buddhas' time. But (as has been explained to me elsewhere, and I am coming to realise), my tendency is to want a certainty that maybe doesn't exist about what are absolute tenets of Buddhism. Dhammakaya is Theravadin isn't it, so, if one is a meditator, is this worthwhile to try? metta, Christine --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > I haven't heard about the drugs or porno in temples yet > > but I suppose that will come. > > Unfortunately so. One official estimated that 10% of monks have > sought rehab for drug problems. See Bangkok Post, March 27, 2001 at > http://scoop.bangkokpost.co.th/bangkokpostnews/bp20010327/270301_news0 > 4.html (you'll probably have to cut and paste that link, I think it's > too long to create the correct hyperlink). > > Derek. 6779 From: Erik Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:36am Subject: Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life --- <> wrote: > --- Erik wrote: > >I think this makes a lot of sense. There's no sense putting the cart > before the horse. What was most helpful for me is the Tibetan > pedagogy called "trang-gye," which is a contraction meaning to "lead > out" (of wrong view) and lead in (to Right View). > > > > Thank you for the informative explanation which followed this > paragraph. But I think we may be talking about two different things. I don't think we are--I think they're a part of the same continuum. > What I had in mind was a technique attributed to the Buddha for > shocking his disciples into Stream Entry. Yes, I am so glad to hear you mention "shocking" someone into stream- entry. This is really a very important idea to understand about awakening. The great Tibetan Mahasiddha Tilopa whacked (the great Mahasiddha) Naropa on the head with his sandal the moment Naropa was ripe, precipitating his awakening on the spot. In Rinzai Zen training they use the "enlightenment stick" (kyosaku) to "whack" you into awakening--this is a standard feature of this system. And then there's koan practice, meant to annihilate discursiveness, to snap the grip of the ratiocination machine that keeps us bound to views and concepts. Countless aspirants have awakened this way, being shocked out of their conceptualization by the totally irrational nature of a koan, for example. Awakening is instantaneous (post-awakening cultivation is gradual, though, just to short-circuit a long debate on subitism vs. gradualism on this one at the moment), and for one with the appropriate accumulations, sometimes all it takes is a really powerful "whack" and BANG! That can happen in many ways, but there often seems to be a real component of "shock" involved someplace in the process, because it is impossible to gradually get rid of sakkayaditthi; it happens suddenly. The fruit ripens gradually on the tree, but drops all at once when you shake the tree, in other words. Great post, Ken! 6780 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:42am Subject: Re: thailand/west --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Glad to know that your eyes are wide open and you don't need to beautify > reality in order to cope. Cybele, You flatter me! But carry on ... I like it! :-)) Actually, I was pretty shocked when I heard about the drugs in the temples. But then I got to reflecting on how I've never heard of anyone who had perfect conditions for practice. In Tibet it was the cold and a diet of salted yak-butter tea. For those old-time forest monks it was tigers and malaria. And now it's traffic fumes and drug-crazed temple boys. So you think the future of the dhamma is in the West? It's possible. Most of my instruction has come from monks, but from reading Tricycle magazine I get the impression that most Westerners prefer lay teachers rather than monks, and retreat centers rather monasteries. I just wonder if the whole thing won't eventually become very shallow, diluted, watered-down. What do you think? Derek. 6781 From: ppp Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 3:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Ripka21 (Sorry, I cannot indentify your name) and Derek: When we discuss how corrupted the Thai Sangha is, we have to regard that the Thai Sangha is not only a religous intitution but a socio-economic intitution, whose funcions include various non-relgious activities. We may get a far better understading of the Sangha if we view it from Anthopological/Sociological perspectives. We may then understand why there are many (or could be majority of the) monks who stay in the Sangha without much religiouis motivation. What is interesting with the Thai Sangha is, however, that despite various problems it has been faceing, it is still well supported by the people and well respected. And the Thai think that without the Sangha, they would not be able to hand their religion from one generation to the next. It is said that what the Dutch do not toleratnce is "intolerance", probably, so do the Thai. (Being less judgmental in nature,) their tolerance level must be much much higher than ours. (Probably, if they can find just a single pious monk among 10 or so monks in average, then, they may come to their satisfactory generalization that the Sangha is functioning well.) tadao 6782 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Derek I hope you’ll excuse a rather brief and non-textual reply, since I have limited time during the week to dig into texts (i am happy to provide support for any view expressed later). --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Please do join in. I'm glad I'm not the only one on the planet who's > interested in the sutta-s! > > On the question of what is necessary for enlightenment ... when the > Buddha gave talks, he didn't, as far as I know, say: "Practice X is > the *only* way to nibbaana." What he did say was: "A monk does > practice X, and nibbaana follows." So, no exclusivism, and no mention > of necessity. But as I am sure you will agree, *only* the development of vipassana leads to enlightenment. And the development of vipassana is the same for all, monk or layperson – ie. the understanding by direct experience of the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment. > Now, while the path of a Buddha is different from that of an arahant, > the Buddha does *not* talk about acquiring the three knowledges as > being only for himself. In some places, he describes the monk's path > as including the acquisition of the three knowledges (e.g., in the > Saamaññaphala Sutta, DN 2). I of course agree that the Buddha encouraged the development of all kinds of kusala, but I think he should be understood as doing so in the context of the development of satipatthana/vipassana, since the development of kusala other than of those levels does not lead to release from samsara. All these forms of kusala you mention here and below, if developed without understanding at the level of vipassana, only add further fuel to continued round of existence. > In fact, in other places the monk's path includes the development of > even more supernormal powers, including the ability to walk on water > and fly through space (e.g. SN 51.11). Mahaa Kassapa had developed > these powers, apparently with the Buddha's approval (SN 16.9). They > are all the result of concentration practices (Iddhipaada-sa.myutta, > SN 51). > > In other places, however, it is the cultivation of the 4 > brahmavihaara-s that is given as the intervening step between the > Noble Eightfold Path and nibbaana (e.g., The Simile of the Cloth, MN > 7). > > And in other places, the Noble Eightfold Path is presented in a bare- > bones form, without any additional attainments (e.g. MN 141). > > And, as we all know, in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta (MN 10) the Buddha > says that its methods alone (formal and informal sati practice) are > enough to bring one to nibbaana -- apparently without a concentration > practice. > > This omission of concentration seems to represent a later stage in > the Buddha's teachings. I’m not sure what you mean by this, or what you base this on. Perhaps you could elaborate? > Elsewhere, he says that lack of respect for concentration meditation > is one of the five factors that will lead to loss of knowledge of the > true Dhamma (SN 16.13), a deterioration which was apparently > happening even during the Buddha's own lifetime. I understand this to mean that the lack of respect for samatha development is indicative of a decline of interest in the teachings. > > how is samma samadhi of the eightfold path to be > > developed, according to the texts? > > Right concentration is always defined as the 4 jhaana-s. Except, of > course, in those places where it's defined as the 8 jhaana-s! You are referring I think to right concentration of the Eightfold Path. In my view, the classic statement of the Eightfold Path is descriptive of a moment of path consciousness – it describes the mental factors (cetsikas) that accompany such moments. The factors are not given in a prescriptive way for individual development, to be a condition for the arising of a moment of path consciousness. Satipatthana is the key to the development of the various path factors. Derek, sorry for the rushed reply, but I look forward to further discussion on this topic. Jon 6783 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:54am Subject: Re: thailand/west Erik, --- Erik wrote: > I still smoke cigarettes, for example Me too! Derek. 6784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The meaning of Equanimity Hi, Kom You are wondering if I am suggesting or implying that the development of samatha up to jhana levels is no longer possible. The answer is, I am not (at least, not intentionally!). But since I'm not sure how that question arises from my earlier post, Kom, it might be better if I re-state the points I was trying to make. 1. The understanding by direct experience of the characteristic of kusala and akusala moments of consciousness is panna of the level of samatha. (This understanding is qualitatively different from the understanding that, for example, if there is unpleasant feeling it is dosa and so must be akusala.) 2. The development of samatha begins with the development of this understanding. It seems to me that only when this understanding has been developed to some considerable degree can the question of a particular meditation subject be considered, since without that developed discrimination it is not possible to know whether the moments of concentration on the chosen subject are kusala or akusala. 3. Knowledge about the development of samatha to the level of jhana existed before the Buddha’s enlightenment, and is not regarded as knowledge exclusive to a Buddha. I hope this clarifies your query --please say if not. Jon --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Jon, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Mike > > > > What I also find interesting is that, although this knowledge (ie. > > knowledge by direct experience of the characteristic of kusala vs. > akusala > > mind states) comes to us as part of the Dhamma, it is in fact > knowledge > > that remains extant during periods when the Dhamma is no longer > > I am quite interested in hearing this part. You sound as if the > development of tranquil meditation up to the Jhana level is no longer > possible. How do I reach this conclusion? > > > alive. It > > is this that is the basis for the development of samatha. Only when > this > > knowledge has been developed to a certain degree can the training of > > 'taking a meditation subject' comes into play, as far as I understand > it. > > > > I am somehow got caught in the loop that developing Satipathanna must > be enormously harder than developing Samatha vipassana because of the > all the conditions involved (and developing Satipathana is still > possible > nowadays). There are still ascetics out there who don't care much about > > the 5 sensualities. What would prevent them from developing such > practices? > > kom 6785 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Considering Erik Thanks for raising this point. My statement that in reality there is no choice was perhaps somewhat cryptic. It was intended to be read in the context of my post shortly before that to Herman, where I said-- "Yes, this is life. But even the 'choosing' is just another moment of intention conditioned by our previous accumulations (and other factors). So there is no more control over this moment (ie. to express it in conventional terms, over 'what we choose') than over the fact that, say, we like one flavour but not another." In other words, there is no paramattha dhamma called 'choice'. The reality we take for choice is really the intention cetasika that we have been discussing lately. Intention is a conditioned dhamma; it is by nature conditioned, just as are our likes and dislikes. But intention is susceptible to conditioning by factors such as hearing dhamma, the company we keep, etc. I don't know if this clarifies my earlier post, Erik? In the sutta you have quoted, the views being refuted are views that deny the efficacy of kamma (deeds) [see also NDB p. 61, GS I p.157]. I of course did not mean to suggest that at all. Jon --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Bruce > > > > --- bruce wrote: > hi nina > > > > > > thanks also for this very appropriate quotation, although i must > admit > > > that > > > i'm stumped by the exhortation at the end to "apply" and "be > aware", as > > > though there were a choice in the matter.... > > > > Yes, it does appear that way to us, and conventional language of > course is > > couched in terms that reflect this. But we are told that the > reality is > > that there is not in fact any choice. > > In whose reality, Jon? The reality of those sectarianis the Buddha > explicitly refuted this view in the Tittha Sutta? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-062.html > > "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold > that...whatever a person experiences...is all caused by what was done > in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold > that...whatever a person experiences...is all caused by what was done > in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to > them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings > because of what was done in the past. A person is a > thief...unchaste...a liar...a divisive speaker...a harsh speaker...an > idle chatterer...greedy...malicious...a holder of wrong views because > of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done > in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort > [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When > one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be > done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously > refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous > refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such > teachings, such views." 6786 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bruce's question (Ken) Ken Thanks for articulating (below) so clearly and succinctly this concern, which I now recall has been expressed before. It is indeed a good one. In addition to your own helpful thoughts, I would like to add my own. --- Ken Howard wrote: > Dear Bruce, > I should point out that I am now a convert to the `other > side' -- happy to toe the party line -- but even so, we seem to > be seeing the issue from similar perspectives. For example, you are > asking why it seems to be OK to listen to the Dhamma with the > delusion that there is a self who is listening, but it is not OK to > meditate in the same way. Actually, neither is OK, if you are talking about moments of actual wrong view, and perhaps no-one has said exactly that. What might have been said is one or other of the following (or something close to it)— 1. Listening to or studying the dhamma is a necessary condition for the development of awareness/understanding, while meditating is not. 2. Listening to or studying the dhamma is likely to help us to have more understanding about the false idea of self and about why that notion is not in accordance with reality, while meditating is not likely to be conducive to that. Nonetheless, the question still arises, why the difference? I don’t expect my answer to be convincing, since my own understanding of what is at play here is only tenuous, let alone trying to explain it to another. The best way I can answer is to say that practice of any kind that is undertaken with the specific intention of developing awareness or understanding, or of eradicating the idea of self, simply by virtue of that practice, would not be conducive to the development of the path, since there must be an idea of self involved (‘if I do this correctly, awareness/understanding may arise’). By ‘any kind of practice’ I would include so-called ‘daily life’ practice as well as formal/seated practice. And yes, I would even include listening to/reading the Dhamma for that matter, if done with the same idea about the arising of awareness. It is not so much that one action is OK while the other is not. It is rather a matter of the idea or view with which the action is done. But in the case of, say, a meditation practice, if the whole rationale of undertaking the practice is to give rise to awareness or understanding, or to reduce the idea of self, then it is almost inevitable that there will be a view of self bound up with that practice. So despite the otherwise sincere intentions of the meditator, the effort is misdirected and the result will be other than intended. I should perhaps elaborate on how listening to or studying the dhamma may differ from this, but I'm afraid i'm out of time for this session and must leave it for a later post. Ken, I don’t know if you think this addresses the question you have identified. I do know it's bound to be controversial! Jon > For all the excellent material on the > overall issue, I haven't noticed any answers to precisely that > question. But I have my own theories! > > I find it helpful to think of the Dhamma as a gift given by the > Buddha, specifically to worldlings like us. So at the initial stage > of accepting the gift, it is proper and Dhamma-consistent that we do > so with the [involuntary] worldling's delusion that there is a self > who accepts. The magic of the gift is that, at the moment we > `take hold of it', the delusion of self slips away and we > have understanding at the level of satipatthana. > > I'm not sure how far I can go with the gift simile, but perhaps > it could be said that, while there is satipatthana, the time may be > right for formal practice -- while there is no satipatthana, we are > back to where we need to accept the gift (to listen to the > Buddha's > teaching). > > I am wondering if formal practice might be intended for the disciple > in whom satipatthana is currently arising strongly and consistently > (in whom there is, for some considerable time, no notion of self), > and who is ready for a catalyst or impetus to push him on to the next > stage (e.g. of Stream-entry) (?) > > Kind regards > Ken Howard 6787 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: thailand/west-Derek/slightly related.... Christine, Yes, those long URLs don't come out well here. Here's another way to find it, if you're still interested (it's only a short article). 1. Go to http://www.bangkokpost.com/ 2. Click on SEARCH Complete Archives somewhere down on the leftmost column 3. In the Find the Story box, type in the name of the official, which is Polparin 4. It comes up with 1 document, with a clickable link Sorry to have to say this, but if you type in dhammakaya as your search term, you'll get some idea of the scandals about that one too. Derek. 6788 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: The meaning of Equanimity Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Kom > > You are wondering if I am suggesting or implying that the development of > samatha up to jhana levels is no longer possible. The answer is, I am not > (at least, not intentionally!). But since I'm not sure how that question > arises from my earlier post, Kom, it might be better if I re-state the > points I was trying to make. OK. I looked at that message one more time. I think I was just mis- interpreting what you said and hence, came the wrong conclusion. Thanks for answering. > 1. The understanding by direct experience of the characteristic of kusala > and akusala moments of consciousness is panna of the level of samatha. > (This understanding is qualitatively different from the understanding > that, for example, if there is unpleasant feeling it is dosa and so must > be akusala.) > > 2. The development of samatha begins with the development of this > understanding. It seems to me that only when this understanding has been > developed to some considerable degree can the question of a particular > meditation subject be considered, since without that developed > discrimination it is not possible to know whether the moments of > concentration on the chosen subject are kusala or akusala. > > 3. Knowledge about the development of samatha to the level of jhana > existed before the Buddha's enlightenment, and is not regarded as > knowledge exclusive to a Buddha. > > I hope this clarifies your query --please say if not. > This clarifies what you said. I still have other questions related to this area. If you will be with the India trip, maybe I will get an opportunity to ask.. kom 6789 From: ppp Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 3:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life To Ken(?): About "Shocks": (Since I deleted the oritinal mail, I cannot be quire sure whom I am addressing.) I do not recall even a single sutta, where the Buddha gives a talk in order to create dosa/akusala among his listerns. So if he is shocking his listerns, the shock he is giving cannot be akusala but kusala (no restlessness, no aversion involved). You may have said that looking at corpuses with their various states of decay must be quite shocking. In reality it is not, it is rather poplar oppostie. Seeing corpuses induce you a calming effect, which may be best described by the term "serinity". During my Bagkok era, in a semi-regular base, a buch of foreign monks at Wat Bown used to go to Mahidon Medical University to obeserve corpuses with verious states of disembodyment (?spelling?). Besides the feeling of respect to the individuals who passed away, we always experienced a king of "serinity", knowing that one day we will be in the same state. So, if one has the right frame of mind, any so-called shocking scences can be perceived as the opportunity to develop kusala, not akusala. tadao 6790 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Erik Dear Derek > >Erik, > >--- Erik wrote: > > I still smoke cigarettes, for example > >Me too! > >Derek. > Bleah, disgusting! I give up any intention of kissing any of you! Please quit very soon. heheheheheh ;-))) Sorry but I can't resist Sarah....:-) LOve Cybele 6791 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:28am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Hi, Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > But as I am sure you will agree, *only* the development of vipassana leads > to enlightenment. And I am sure you will agree that there is NO step in the Noble Eightfold Path called Right Vipassanaa! :-) Derek. 6792 From: Erik Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:36am Subject: Re: thailand/west --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Erik > Dear Derek > > > > >Erik, > > > >--- Erik wrote: > > > I still smoke cigarettes, for example > > > >Me too! > > > >Derek. > > > > Bleah, disgusting! > I give up any intention of kissing any of you! Forget what I said before about not quitting, I finally have some real incentive to give it up now, Cybele!!! > Please quit very soon. heheheheheh ;-))) > > Sorry but I can't resist Sarah....:-) (this one is going to keep me giggling all day :) :) :) 6793 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > This omission of concentration seems to represent a later stage in > > the Buddha's teachings. > I'm not sure what you mean by this, or what you base this on. Perhaps you > could elaborate? This is my take on the problem of the stratification of the nikaaya- s. But perhaps this issue would be too academic for most people ... no? Derek. 6794 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:48am Subject: Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life --- ppp wrote: > knowing that one day we > will be in the same state. Tadao, I think you're exactly right there. The Buddha says: "If [a monk] were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body: 'This body, too; such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'." Derek. 6795 From: Erik Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:49am Subject: Re: Considering --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > Thanks for raising this point. > > My statement that in reality there is no choice was perhaps somewhat > cryptic. It was intended to be read in the context of my post shortly > before that to Herman, where I said-- > > "Yes, this is life. But even the 'choosing' is just another moment of > intention conditioned by our previous accumulations (and other factors). > So there is no more control over this moment (ie. to express it in > conventional terms, over 'what we choose') than over the fact that, say, > we like one flavour but not another." I hear what you're saying Jonothan, but I just want to emphasize this idea that we're conditioned by the past can be taken too far, to the point it engenders a deadly form of fatalism. I do not disagree even a tiny bit that we are conditioned by our accumulations. Anyone who's tried giving up a bad habit knows just how difficult it is to undo that conditioning. But that is not the point. The point is we have a choice right here and now. We CAN undo that conditioning, because we have volition. It can be bruitally difficult to do so, but again, even though those accumulated tendencies may be deeply entrenched and very difficult to overcome, the point is we can (and MUST) use our volition to progress on the path. I was only responding to what I perceived as possibly taking this consideration of accumulated tendencies too far, to the point of fatalism. > In other words, there is no paramattha dhamma called 'choice'. The > reality we take for choice is really the intention cetasika that we have > been discussing lately. Intention is a conditioned dhamma; it is by > nature conditioned, just as are our likes and dislikes. But intention is > susceptible to conditioning by factors such as hearing dhamma, the company > we keep, etc. Right, and this is merely what I was wishing to emphasize boldly, because this is where the rubber meets the road in terms of practice. That volition is our tiny window of opportunity out of this mess. It may be heavily conditioned; old habits may seem intractable and perhaps even appear insurmountable, yet, that tiny sliver of volition exists, and that is our ticket out of here. I much prefer to emphasize this aspect rather than the fact we're so heavily conditioned. That is obvious to anyone who's ever tried to make deep and lasting changes. What may not be so obvious, as a result of this, is that we CAN change. Consider my raising issue this merely a minor rudder adjustment, Jon. :) > I don't know if this clarifies my earlier post, Erik? In the sutta you > have quoted, the views being refuted are views that deny the efficacy of > kamma (deeds) [see also NDB p. 61, GS I p.157]. I of course did not mean > to suggest that at all. I didn't think you were suggsting that, but the way you put it, it could easily be read that way, and I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page on this point, and also that no one else would become confused by misintepreting your intent. 6796 From: Christine Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:57am Subject: Re: thailand/west-Derek/slightly related.... Derek, Thanks. Found the article, and also checked out dhammakaya. Don't think I'll pursue any contact there. metta, Christine --- "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Christine, > > Yes, those long URLs don't come out well here. Here's another way to > find it, if you're still interested (it's only a short article). > 1. Go to http://www.bangkokpost.com/ > 2. Click on SEARCH Complete Archives somewhere down on the leftmost > column > 3. In the Find the Story box, type in the name of the official, which > is Polparin > 4. It comes up with 1 document, with a clickable link > > Sorry to have to say this, but if you type in dhammakaya as your > search term, you'll get some idea of the scandals about that one too. > > Derek. 6797 From: ppp Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life Hi, Derek: It's very interesting, isn't it? Usually we think that we would be disgusted with seeing dead bodies. Somehow we wouldn't. (I had hard time living in Sri Lanka, encoutering snakes regulary. I HATE snakes. They caused me a real Shock more than a few times. tadao 6798 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 0:22pm Subject: Re: note to jon and nina + re: cybelle's sharing abhidhamma in daily life --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Derek: > It's very interesting, isn't it? Usually we think that we would be > disgusted with seeing dead bodies. Somehow we wouldn't. > (I had hard time living in Sri Lanka, encoutering snakes regulary. > I HATE snakes. They caused me a real Shock more than a few times. tadao Hi, Tadao, Yes. I think it's partly cultural. In Western cultures (and maybe Japan too? I don't know) we don't see that many dead bodies. But if you'd lived on the banks of the Ganges all your life, you'd probably see dead bodies almost every day. Luangphor Viriyang Sirintharo (also a disciple of Ajahn Mun, of the Thai forest tradition) asks the rhetorical question: "Why don't undertakers all get enlightened?" I'm sure everyone on this list can supply their own answers to that one! Derek. 6799 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Hi, Derek (and Jon) - In a message dated 7/23/01 11:29:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Derek writes: > Hi, Jon, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > But as I am sure you will agree, *only* the development of > vipassana leads > > to enlightenment. > > And I am sure you will agree that there is NO step in the Noble > Eightfold Path called Right Vipassanaa! :-) > > > Derek. > ============================ I think you make a rather good point, Derek! [Not that it contradicts Jon's point, inasmuch as it *is* the development of insight (resulting, of course, from the practicing of the 8-fold path) which leads to the paths and fruits.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)