7000 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 5:22pm Subject: A late welcome Dear Asterix 7 (sorry, i don't know how else to address you), I think you quietly slipped in without my noticing or without any fanfare or welcome:-) I gather that, like Gayan, you live in Sri Lanka;-) I spent quite a long time there (living in a temple) and then later joining Khun Sujin, Nina and many friends from this list in the 70s, so it's rather a special place (read object of a lot of lobha) for me. I'm sure everyone would love to hear a little more about your background and interest in dhamma. You suggest you did not 'take refuge in the dhamma'- at a young age..were you brought up in Sri lanka? Where do you live? Hope to hear more form you and to visit Sri lanka again. Thank you for joining us here. Sarah p.s Do you know Gayan (one of our long-standing members now)? I notice you both sign off in the same way:-) -- Asterix 7 wrote: > dear cybele, > > > You live in paradise. Serendipy Island! ;-) > > Yeah, true to some point, only realised it after i started > globetrotting.. > ........... > > I wish i had found refuge in the dhamma much earlier in my life, so I > would have had the drive to meet the people I admire. > But as we undertand , these things are uncontrollable. > > wish you a happy journey in dhamma > > rgds 7001 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 5:59pm Subject: toeing the party line....;-) Dear Ken, We followed up this point with Bruce in Bkk and this reminded me of your post here: --- Ken wrote: > Dear Bruce, > As a lurker of long standing, I am familiar with your views on the > study-verses-formal-practice issue. If I remember correctly, it was a > number of your earlier posts that I found particularly helpful. They > eloquently asked the questions that I was trying to formulate in my > own mind. Yes, he has a knack for this! > > I should point out that I am now a convert to the `other > side' -- happy to toe the party line -- but even so, we seem to > be seeing the issue from similar perspectives. For example, you are > asking why it seems to be OK to listen to the Dhamma with the > delusion that there is a self who is listening, but it is not OK to > meditate in the same way. For all the excellent material on the > overall issue, I haven't noticed any answers to precisely that > question. I'm sure there have been other repsonses by now, but let me add a little more as I see it. Anytime there is the delusion of self, it is wrong view and not OK in the sense that wrong view is never OK. Of course, there can be wrong view right now while we're reading dhamma, just as there can be wrong view whilst meditating, hiking in Switzerland or any other time. There can be an idea of being able to control life or realities at any of these times and the truth is totally hidden. Again it's the citta and accompanying cetasikas at any given moment that counts rather than the 'situation', the story which we take for being the reality. In the same way, panna (wisdom) and awareness can arise whenever there are the conditions for them to arise which may be at any of these times if there has been sufficient intellectual understanding and considering about the paramattha dhammas (realities) which are to be known. A moment of sati is very short. it doesn't wait for a special time and place. >>But I have my own theories! good! > > I find it helpful to think of the Dhamma as a gift given by the > Buddha, specifically to worldlings like us. So at the initial stage > of accepting the gift, it is proper and Dhamma-consistent that we do > so with the [involuntary] worldling's delusion that there is a self > who accepts. I would say that at any moments of ignorance or wrong view, there is no accepting of the gift....only at moments of wholesomeness (kusala) and specifically at moment s with panna (wisdom) and sati (awareness). The magic of the gift is that, at the moment we > `take hold of it', the delusion of self slips away and we > have understanding at the level of satipatthana. OK > > I'm not sure how far I can go with the gift simile, but perhaps > it could be said that, while there is satipatthana, the time may be > right for formal practice -- I would say that at moments of satipatthana, when sati is aware of paramattha dhamma, there is no idea of formal or any other practice. >while there is no satipatthana, we are > back to where we need to accept the gift (to listen to the > Buddha's > teaching). Moments of satipatthana can slip in while listening or at any other time...no rules at all...but it's true that unless we listen and consider a lot about realities and understand well in theory, there won't be conditions for the 'slipping in'. > > I am wondering if formal practice might be intended for the disciple > in whom satipatthana is currently arising strongly and consistently > (in whom there is, for some considerable time, no notion of self), > and who is ready for a catalyst or impetus to push him on to the next > stage (e.g. of Stream-entry) (?) The development of satipatthana doesn't change at different stages or levels. It's always only the present reality which can be the object of awareness. The understanding grows deeper and more penetrating, but this doesn't mean it ever persists or needs a particular 'formal practice'. As wisdom grows it sees the more subtle aspects of wrong view and there are fewer and fewer conditions for these wrong views to arise. Thus, there are fewer conditions to have any idea of certain places or times or postions as being more favourable as it becomes clearer that it 's wrong view and ignorance that are blinding 'us', not Vancouver, being a layperson, too busy at work or whatever other story seems to be the 'block'. Not sure if this helps or confuses more! I'm actually hoping Bruce will get back on this to you with one of his 'colourful posts', but Erik will have to give him a nudge first (and I know he is very busy in Bkk for now). Thanks for your thoughtful posts always, Sarah p.s Cybele and friends, there's no party-line to toe here....;-))) What would there be to discuss if we all agreed on every point? 7002 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:48pm Subject: From Bangkok Dear Group, Just finished lunch with Acharn sujin, Amara and her mother, Betty, Sukin, Bruce, Ivan, Erik, Shin, my chidren, and others. We were at the Royal Bangkok Sports Cub (as the guests of Amara's mother). There was delicious food and pleasnt conversation. That was the story. We discussed the nature of the moment. In truth there was no luncheon, no sports club, no robert, too. Usuallly we live in this world of concepts and stories about life, thinking we are doing this or that. But what is there is only these insignificant dhammas . Understanding them means there is a breaking down of the 'whole'. There was a small tropical storm that we could see outside the room where we later discussed some more. In truth no storm but only seeing arising conditioned by visible object and then thinking processes that form up concepts. Panna can see the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts and panna comes always associated with a level of detachment. Even when we discuss the dhamma we may have attachment to some idea -and if it is not seen as attachment (a dhamma that obscures) one will accumulate more attachment to that idea. Acharn Sujin noted how the understanding must be very firm so that all namas (mental phenomena) are known as simply nama (not self). There is not my dosa or my lobha or my wisdom or my seeing- they are all simply nama dhamma. Panna can understand too that moments of vipaka (result of past kamma) seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling are different from moments during which thinking, attachemnt, understanding, or ignorance etc, arise. We spoke about how no one can stop the next moment arising. No one can decide that the next moment should be sound or colour, seeing or hearing , or feeling, or thinking. we might worry what the next life will be, or we might have attachment to an idea of being born in a good place. However,now there is dukkha, again and again we are opressed by these different objects. It is by seeing dukkha that is occuring now that next life can be understood. And the more this is known the more there is detachemnt from the idea of a self who is reborn. There is only this moment and it can become habitual to investigate it. Hard to do so though without the idea of self. We have to see for ourselves whether it can be done. The dfference between understanding at levels of thiking and at levels of direct understanding can be known too. It is not a fast process I think. Better to go in the right direction slowly though than the wrong one quickly. robert Ps, Very nice to meet everyone and thanks for the party on saturday Erik. ert 7005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 9:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bruce's question (Ken) Ken Thanks for your post and my apologies for being slow in replying. I am behind on the messages from last week, and am just starting to catch up. --- Ken wrote: > Jon > I really would like to know the correct approach to the > Buddhadhamma. I want to know exactly what those disciples in the > suttas meant when they exclaimed, "I take refuge in the Dhamma > from this day until life's end!" Yes, wouldn't we all! But as Kom's reply to you made clear, it's the same path for everyone and there's no short cut. We on this list are very fortunate to have this goal in common and so hopefully can be of support to each other in this endeavour. > On many occasions, when I have > been reading messages posted by you and other members of this list, > the penny has dropped.There are lucid moment when everything seems to > fall into place. I wish I could hold on to those moments but they go > and I find myself making the same mistakes -- thinking I can control > things. > > I only hope that you will not get tired of giving these > explanations. I need to see them time and time again. Thanks for your kind and encouraging words. There is I hope no chance of ever getting tired of going over the same ground, since if there is one thing I have come to realise it is that one never gets beyond needing to be reminded again and again of the same basic truths -- that it is the reality appearing at the present moment that is to be known, that reality and nothing else. Jon 7006 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 10:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Erik --- <> wrote: > > To my reading of the > > texts, the statement of the Eightfold Path is given to describe the > > consciousness at that moment, to tell us *what is happening* at the > level > > of the citta, rather than to tell us *how to develop* towards > achievement > > of that path moment. It is a snapshot of the instant, rather than a > > roadmap to the destination. > > I see them as representing both ways--the N8FP can be read and > understood at many levels, lokiya as well as lokuttara, in terms of > path-factors as well as guidelines for bhavana. This as an important, even crucial, issue. It is intimately involved with the whole question of the development of the path generally and role of samatha in that development in particular. Just to restate, I am suggesting that references in the suttas to the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are references to the mental factors arising at a moment of path consciousness. On this reading, the Noble Eightfold Path is a path in the sense that moments of such path consciousness lead inexorably to nibbana; it is not a 'path of practice' for the worldling in the sense that each factor is to be developed separately. This path is also known as the stream that is entered at the first of the 4 stages of insight. Only the stream-winner and above are said to be on the noble eightfold path. (Note: there are, however, mundane path moments -- moments of vipassana -- which are moments of consciousness accompanied by 5 of the 8 path factors.) This interpretation is supported by my reading of the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. I find there references to treatment of the factors of the N8FP as cetasikas that accompany path-moments, but so far not to the path factors as 'guidelines for bhavana'. Here are some examples. In the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation CMA VII, #24-#38, it says-- "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path. In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths." The Visuddhimagga in its discussion of the 4 Noble Truths [XVI, 75 - 83] says that the different factors of the eightfold path "occur in a single moment on the occasion of the path". It explains how at such moments each factor performs its own function. Right concentration, for example, arises conditioned by (among other things) the right mindfulness that arises together with it-- "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." Right concentration of the Eightfold Path is explained here as the concentration that arises with right view and right mindfulness and abolishes wrong concentration. As we know from the suttas, it is concentration that is of the level of jhana, but this need only be so for the actual moment of eightfold path consciousness. I may be wrong, but I suspect that the idea of the Eightfold Path as a guideline for bhavana is an approach that has developed in relatively recent times. Jon 7007 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 1:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 529 Dear Robert, How beautifully you described the day today. . .and any day or any moment. Thank you for all the wonderful insights you share with us, which become conditions for insight to arise within for us (conventional us) as well. Anomodhana, Betty 7008 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 2:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Hi, Jon (and Erik) - In a message dated 7/31/01 10:10:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > > Erik > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > To my reading of the > > > texts, the statement of the Eightfold Path is given to describe the > > > consciousness at that moment, to tell us *what is happening* at the > > level > > > of the citta, rather than to tell us *how to develop* towards > > achievement > > > of that path moment. It is a snapshot of the instant, rather than a > > > roadmap to the destination. > > > > I see them as representing both ways--the N8FP can be read and > > understood at many levels, lokiya as well as lokuttara, in terms of > > path-factors as well as guidelines for bhavana. > > This as an important, even crucial, issue. It is intimately involved with > the whole question of the development of the path generally and role of > samatha in that development in particular. > > Just to restate, I am suggesting that references in the suttas to the > factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are references to the mental factors > arising at a moment of path consciousness. On this reading, the Noble > Eightfold Path is a path in the sense that moments of such path > consciousness lead inexorably to nibbana; it is not a 'path of practice' > for the worldling in the sense that each factor is to be developed > separately. This path is also known as the stream that is entered at the > first of the 4 stages of insight. Only the stream-winner and above are > said to be on the noble eightfold path. (Note: there are, however, > mundane path moments -- moments of vipassana -- which are moments of > consciousness accompanied by 5 of the 8 path factors.) > > This interpretation is supported by my reading of the Visuddhimagga and > the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. I find there references to treatment of the > factors of the N8FP as cetasikas that accompany path-moments, but so far > not to the path factors as 'guidelines for bhavana'. Here are some > examples. > > In the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation CMA VII, #24-#38, it says-- > > "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble > Eightfold Path. In the teaching of the four truths, this is the > collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors > arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths." > > The Visuddhimagga in its discussion of the 4 Noble Truths [XVI, 75 - 83] > says that the different factors of the eightfold path "occur in a single > moment on the occasion of the path". It explains how at such moments each > factor performs its own function. Right concentration, for example, > arises conditioned by (among other things) the right mindfulness that > arises together with it-- > > "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the > unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes > wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the > characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is > manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." > > Right concentration of the Eightfold Path is explained here as the > concentration that arises with right view and right mindfulness and > abolishes wrong concentration. As we know from the suttas, it is > concentration that is of the level of jhana, but this need only be so for > the actual moment of eightfold path consciousness. > > I may be wrong, but I suspect that the idea of the Eightfold Path as a > guideline for bhavana is an approach that has developed in relatively > recent times. > > Jon > ============================== I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about Right Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And what of all the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the suttas? These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma understanding, then it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are further apart than i had realized. Perhaps I am totally missing what you are saying. Please lead me out of my confusion! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7009 From: ppp Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 1:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] From Bangkok Hi, Erick: Thank you for reporting us on your convestion with Khun Sujin. An excellent reminder, indeed. tadao 7010 From: Erik Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 8:46am Subject: Noble Eightfold Path - Jonothan --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: Jonothan, what, can't go a day without spoiling for a good debate? The only people worse in this regard than lawyers are Gelug- pas! :) :) :) > > [Erik] the N8FP can be read and > > understood at many levels, lokiya as well as lokuttara, in terms of > > path-factors as well as guidelines for bhavana. > > This as an important, even crucial, issue. You bet it is! > Just to restate, I am suggesting that references in the suttas to the > factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are references to the mental factors > arising at a moment of path consciousness. Rather than offer your own interpretation or that of commentators, why not examine the very words we both accept as canonical, the words the Buddha was reputed to have spoken in the Magga-Vibhanga Sutta (Analysis of the Path): Evam me suttam, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html Nowhere in this Sutta does the Buddha mention anything about the Eightfold path referring to abstract "mental factors" at the arising of path consciosuness. If he did, please point it out to me, because these eyes can't see a single reference to the maggangas as fitting your interpretation. Let's begin at the beginning, as it were. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view." Note here, just for starters, the Buddha says NOTHING about recognizing the present moment. I just had to toss that out there for all those who seem to keep clinging to the IDEA about the recognizing realities in the present moment while totally neglecting the less glamorous conventional of practice the Buddha spent so much time harping on, if we go by how much the Buddha spoke a the conventional level, as in this sutta, vs. how much he spoke about the loftier aspects of the path, as he does in far fewer place, if one merely performs a quick scan of the suttas for their content. In other words, the Buddha understands this reality about us, and as a result teaches at a conventional level most of the time. In other words, what is suffering? What is its origination? And what is the way leading to its cessation? Or stated another way, what is the problem (First Noble Truth)? Where does this problem originate (Second Noble Truth)? How do we terminate the problem, now that we know where it lives (the Eightfold Path)? "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech." Certainly when there is kusala citta one will be abstaining from all of these activities, since these are all motivated through the akusala-kamma-pathas of the speech-door. But he doesn't put it in those terms here. No, the Buddha explicitly speaks again at the most conventional of levels. There is no need to be a sotapanna to understand the meaning of this, is there? Any child with a basic grasp of these terms can understand this simple message. And put it into practice it, for that matter. I learned these basic teachings from my precious parents before I was five years old! "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual intercourse: This, monks, is called right action." Again, when kusala cittas are present none of these activities will have condition to arise because they lack cause (following the infallible law of cause-and-effect, that all things depend on conditions for their arising), as before. But he isn't talking about some abstract supramundane path-factor here, as should be apparent to anyone reading this without a mind filled with preconceptions about what is and is not the path. These activities are not even reputed to be possible by sotapannas! So how on earth could the Buddha be talking about anything supramundane here at all? This is obviously a lokiya teaching. To suggest otherwise would entail the absurd consequence that the Buddha was preaching to those who had already terminated the conditions for the arising of these activities! Why would the Buddha waste precious time pedantically lecturing stream-winners on such points? And where here is there ANY mention of again, abstract notions of cittas and cetasikas and magga- nana here? But enough on that. And Howard has already mentioned Right Livelihood, etc. Let's get to one REALLY IMPORTANT ONE for DSG (because many of the responses I've seen here on intention and volition and effort indicate seriously wrong understanding about the notion of samma- vayama, Right Effort): "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." What about this reads like "path consciousness" in the magga-nana sense? Any kindergartener with a basic understanding of the terms used here can easily grasp this utterly simple message, and what the intent of these very simple and direct words regarding effort is. The meaning's plain as the noonday sun! > On this reading, the Noble > Eightfold Path is a path in the sense that moments of such path > consciousness lead inexorably to nibbana; it is not a 'path of practice' > for the worldling in the sense that each factor is to be developed > separately. I believe I have shown otherwise. Now you show me where my interpretation is the tiniest bit at variance with what Lord Buddha ACTUALLY taught in the Suttas ALL schools of Buddhism accept as the words of the Tathagata, the rightly self-awakened one. "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness. We all appear to agree that this aspect of practice is necessary, being vipassana and all. This is what I have been taught by my teachers and is what is taught in all systems one would associate with the label Buddha-dhamma. > This path is also known as the stream that is entered at the > first of the 4 stages of insight. Only the stream-winner and above are > said to be on the noble eightfold path. Sorry, but I could not disagree more. Sotapannas and "above" (as if there is something like "levels" rather than the termination of unwholesome qualities via absence) may have actualized certain aspects of the Eightfold path and be practicing it for the first time with Right View, but there is no need to be a sotapanna to practice ANY of the limbs of the Noble Eightfold Path. Must one be a sotapanna to practice Right Concentration, for example? How is one to realize the fruits of the Dhamma without this indispensable component being THOROUGHLY established in the first place? "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." I just want to point out a key phrase here: "enters and remains in" as perhaps providing a clue as to the Buddha's meaning of what sort of jhana meditation to cultivate here. Where in these very simple words is there room for the notion of "khanika jhanas" that many use to avoid doing the specifically directed practices (Right Effort) of concentrating and unifying the mind? Where is there the slightest talk about "present moments"? Note I am not denying that awakening can and does often occur outside of seated meditation, but it would take a pretty liberal interpretation of this definition, repeated over and over again by Lord Buddha in so many places throughout his teaching career, to think that the Buddha was suggesting one could simply dispense with "entering AND REMAINING" in these states of highly-concentrated awareness for extended periods of time! And the reason for this is that concentration--true ekagatta in the jhana sense--is so hard to come by in the first place, that we need a whole slew of favorable conditions for its arising at all. And to forgo this type of directed meditation specifically aimed at cultivating concentration for extended periods of time, such that one attains mastery in concentration, is a recipe for further rounds in the wheel of samsara. Note I am not suggesting this necessarily be done in seated meditation, nor by following the breath. Only that it be done to the point master is attained to the point one can easily "enter and REMAIN" in this state of concentrated awareness at will, for extended periods of time. That may be accomplished by a number of means, but it is a requirement all he same. If it weren't you would not see this definition of Right Concentration repeated by the Buddha in so many places throughout the suttas. > (Note: there are, however, > mundane path moments -- moments of vipassana -- which are moments of > consciousness accompanied by 5 of the 8 path factors.) All these are mere abstract concepts, leading nowhere but to further rounds on the wheel of samsara, Jonothan. > This interpretation is supported by my reading of the Visuddhimagga and > the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. I find there references to treatment of the > factors of the N8FP as cetasikas that accompany path-moments, but so far > not to the path factors as 'guidelines for bhavana'. Here are some > examples. Set aside the Visuddhimagga! Set aside the Abhidhammata-Sangaha! In fact, take the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka, its commentaries and sub- commentaries, and set the WHOLE THING aside, until the essential points above are grasped in their entirety, because it is apparent the confusion engendered by these volumes of abstract categories and classifications and interpretations of interpretations of interpretations are directly occluding the actual (and so incredibly simple and direct) meaning of the very words Lord Buddha spoke to his disciples, which are so simple even a child can grasp them! > The Visuddhimagga in its discussion of the 4 Noble Truths [XVI, 75 - 83] > says that the different factors of the eightfold path "occur in a single > moment on the occasion of the path". It explains how at such moments each > factor performs its own function. Right concentration, for example, > arises conditioned by (among other things) the right mindfulness that > arises together with it-- Just to note, for the record, counsel, that you're saying the Visuddhimagga supports the notion that Right Concentration arises from conditions, that is has conditions as support. > "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the > unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes > wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the > characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is > manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." Do you have direct experience if this type of concentration arising from the method of practice you've been taught? No need to answer, this is merely a question to reflect very carefully on, because it is in the most literal sense a matter of life and death. And the opportunities to encounter a human birth (let alone the holy Dharma during a Buddha-sasana) are so rare as to be nearly unfathomable: "Suppose a man threw into the ocean a yoke with one hole in it, and then the east wind blew it west and the west wind blew it east and the north wind blew it south and the south wind blew it north; and suppose there were a blind turtle that came up to the surface once at the end of each century. How do you conceive this, bikkhus, would that blind turtle eventually put his head through that yoke with the one hole in it? "He might, Lord, at the end of a long period. "Bikkhus, the blind turtle would sooner put his head through that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to perdition, would find his way back to the human state." If this iosn't an exhortation to first rightly comprehend the intent of the Buddha's teachings, and then DILIGENTLY put those teachigns into practice with great effort, then I don't know what is. As I said to Robert yesterday, the methods on Right Concentration and the rest of the Noble Eightfold Path, as detailed in the Magga- Vibhanga Sutta by the Buddha above, the very one my teachers have taught, are known in no uncertain terms to have resulted in the fruits of the noble path. The EMPHASIS, specifically, found in other pedagogical modes of instruction, are not so certain to this collection of khandas. Not that I'm dismissing them outright, but I am awaiting serious evidence they actually yielded the fruits of the noble path. And that is where the rubber meets the road in the entire discussion of the Dharma. That is the entire point of the path, as discussed in Sunday's round-table with Khun Sujin. Points on which we both, by the way, totally agreed: that the entire reason for study and practice is to create the appropriate conditions for the arising of the path- consciousness, because ONLY through the moments of path-consciousness are the mental afflictions permanently terminated, and the round of suffering on the wheel of samsara brought to complete and total cessation. > I may be wrong, but I suspect that the idea of the Eightfold Path as a > guideline for bhavana is an approach that has developed in relatively > recent times. I seriously doubt that one, simply based on what the Buddha is reputed to have actually spoken during his forty-plus years helping suffering sentient beings terminate that suffering once and for all. As always, it's a pleasure, my friend in the Dhamma, Jonothan! :) :) :) (and now that you've seen my intensity firsthand you know where all this viriya comes from! -- plus, it's just such a great joy to be here in BKK sharing Dhamma with all my friends here--I find no activity more delightful than fully immmersing this body, speech, and mind in the Holy Dhamma!) :) :) :) 7011 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 10:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Howard Thanks for coming in with these queries which I am sure are shared by many (most?) on this list. Howard, I have not forgotten your earlier post where you quoted the standard sutta description of Right Concentration (as has Erik more recently) and also your previous comments on Right Effort as the 4 strivings. I do intend to refer to these in my next post which will follow on from the last one. Whether it will resolve confusion or add to it remains to be seen! But certainly, I am not questioning the sutta references for one moment -- it is a matter of how they are to be understood. As Erik so aptly put it, the tripitaka is to be read holistically; this means that each pitaka must be read in the light of the other 2 pitakas. Just briefly on the path factors that are the 3 abstinences (right speech, action and livelihood), yes, these too are cetasikas arising at the supramundane path moment (moment of enlightenment). At mundane path moments (moments of vipassana), however, these 3 cetasikas are absent and only the remaining 5 path-factor cetasikas arise. Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Erik) - > > In a message dated 7/31/01 10:10:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jonothan Abbott writes: > > > > > > Erik > > > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > > > To my reading of the > > > > texts, the statement of the Eightfold Path is given to describe > the > > > > consciousness at that moment, to tell us *what is happening* at > the > > > level > > > > of the citta, rather than to tell us *how to develop* towards > > > achievement > > > > of that path moment. It is a snapshot of the instant, rather than > a > > > > roadmap to the destination. > > > > > > I see them as representing both ways--the N8FP can be read and > > > understood at many levels, lokiya as well as lokuttara, in terms of > > > path-factors as well as guidelines for bhavana. > > > > This as an important, even crucial, issue. It is intimately involved > with > > the whole question of the development of the path generally and role > of > > samatha in that development in particular. > > > > Just to restate, I am suggesting that references in the suttas to the > > factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are references to the mental > factors > > arising at a moment of path consciousness. On this reading, the Noble > > Eightfold Path is a path in the sense that moments of such path > > consciousness lead inexorably to nibbana; it is not a 'path of > practice' > > for the worldling in the sense that each factor is to be developed > > separately. This path is also known as the stream that is entered at > the > > first of the 4 stages of insight. Only the stream-winner and above > are > > said to be on the noble eightfold path. (Note: there are, however, > > mundane path moments -- moments of vipassana -- which are moments of > > consciousness accompanied by 5 of the 8 path factors.) > > > > This interpretation is supported by my reading of the Visuddhimagga > and > > the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. I find there references to treatment of > the > > factors of the N8FP as cetasikas that accompany path-moments, but so > far > > not to the path factors as 'guidelines for bhavana'. Here are some > > examples. > > > > In the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha translation CMA VII, #24-#38, it says-- > > > > "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble > > Eightfold Path. In the teaching of the four truths, this is the > > collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors > > arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths." > > > > The Visuddhimagga in its discussion of the 4 Noble Truths [XVI, 75 - > 83] > > says that the different factors of the eightfold path "occur in a > single > > moment on the occasion of the path". It explains how at such moments > each > > factor performs its own function. Right concentration, for example, > > arises conditioned by (among other things) the right mindfulness that > > arises together with it-- > > > > "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the > > unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, > abolishes > > wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has > the > > characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. > It is > > manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." > > > > Right concentration of the Eightfold Path is explained here as the > > concentration that arises with right view and right mindfulness and > > abolishes wrong concentration. As we know from the suttas, it is > > concentration that is of the level of jhana, but this need only be so > for > > the actual moment of eightfold path consciousness. > > > > I may be wrong, but I suspect that the idea of the Eightfold Path as a > > guideline for bhavana is an approach that has developed in relatively > > recent times. > > > > Jon > > > ============================== > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about Right > > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And what of > all > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the > suttas? > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma understanding, > then > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are > further > apart than i had realized. > Perhaps I am totally missing what you are saying. Please lead me > out > of my confusion! > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, > a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 7012 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 10:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting DSG friends in Bkk Good gracious!!! I am appalled, what happens with all this anglosaxons and one disguised scandinavian, they lost all composure!!1 All this lobha and overexcitement, they are flying high, no moderation at all! I am frankly shocked with your latin-like passionate behaviour. So disgraceful! Hope you all return to your habitual coldbloodedness otherwise I will feel overwhelmed by all this enthusiasm, lust for life and Dhamma. Really I am deeply concerned about this sangha; luckily I was not there to join in all this unrestrained behaviour so unlike my nature... ;-) Promise you make me feel a model of temperance. Please stop it otherwise I will lose my role in this list. ;-) My judicious regards Cybele >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Meeting DSG friends in Bkk >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:10:02 +0800 (CST) > > Hi Erik, > >It's great to see and hear what a good start you've got off to in Bkk and >how >hospitable everyone is to you (and would be to anyone else from here)! > >..and of course you're so appreciative that it makes it a pleasure for >everyone.... > > > > Well, Sarah, you may or may not know this but I literally DID work ON > > the trading floor at one point on Wall St. (actually, the World > > Financial Center--but not the "trading pits" with all the shouting > > and hand-waving like the NYSE--these are computerized trading desks, > > but still an extremely intense environment where people burn out > > faster than Roman candles). > 7013 From: ppp Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 3:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Noble Eightfold Path - Jonothan Hi, Erick: Here is just a short comment of mine with respect to your discussion on the Noble Eightfold Path with Khun Jonothan. What I would like say is that we are not wise enough to understand the essence of the Dhamma just picking up a sutta or severl suttas (regardless how important these suttas are). We have to cast our eyes rather widely and read as many discourses as possible. Based on such background knowldge of the discoures and favourably based on (some) understanding of the Abhidhamma and based on what other people have been arguing about the true nature of the Dhamma, we have to draw our (tentative) conclusion on what the Dhamma is all about. (Please do not think that I am saying that you are not a learned man.) There are so many formulaic(?spelling?) definitions of various Buddhist concepts. And I think it is rather dangerous to accept these formulaic definitions LITERALLY. (They are almost like a doctor's prescriptions; unless one has been trained in medicine/pharmacology, these are not understandable.) When we read the Sutta-Pitakas, there are hundred and hundered of discoures where the Buddha repeately describes that seeing is impermanent/non-self/suffering etc. By way of appreciating the signifiance of the Buddha repeating on the true nature of these phenomena, we can slowly work on the formulaic definitions of the Buddhist concepts (It takes time to apprecipate/understand the true meanings of these formulaic expresions. If these expressions were something which could be understood literally, Gotam Buddha's immeidate sucessors wouldn't have put so much effort to establish the pradigm which now we call "Theravada Buddhism".) tadao 7014 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 10:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] From Bangkok Dear Robert >Dear Group, >Just finished lunch with Acharn sujin, Amara and her mother, Betty, >Sukin, Bruce, Ivan, Erik, Shin, my chidren, and others. We were at >the Royal Bangkok Sports Cub (as the guests of Amara's mother). >There was delicious food and pleasnt conversation. >That was the story. > > We discussed the nature of the moment. In truth there was no >luncheon, no sports club, no robert, too. Usuallly we live in this >world of concepts and stories about life, thinking we are doing this >or that. But what is there is only these insignificant dhammas . From the deepest of my heart, there is no intention of merely provoking or teasing you but are you sure that you were LIVING THE PRESENT MOMENT in that occasion you described? You seem very much engrossed in ponder and elaborate the experience; analyzing obssessively. Could I suggest you to put aside Dhamma books for a while and read Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis. Life and Dhamma are in your mind and your guts and you are far too much focussed in your mind but then what could I know - I am no expert in Abhidhamma nevertheless my mind is sharp and my heart is wideopen. I plead you to consider my suggestion. Don't lose your beginners mind, don't lose your heart. And don't scrutinize my mail as well! ;-) Above all don't lose your composure like your naughty friends, they are all overexcited - disgraceful! Love Cybele 7015 From: ppp Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 3:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] From Bangkok Sorry Robert: I didn't realize that it's you who has sent us such a nice reminder on sati from Bangkok. Thank you, tadao 7016 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 11:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bruce's question (Ken) Ken Just to elaborate on (perhaps 'elucidate' would be more apt) my earlier post ... --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Ken > --- Ken wrote: > Jon > > I really would like to know the correct approach to the > > Buddhadhamma. I want to know exactly what those disciples in the > > suttas meant when they exclaimed, "I take refuge in the Dhamma > > from this day until life's end!" > > Yes, wouldn't we all! But as Kom's reply to you made clear, it's the > same > path for everyone and there's no short cut. We on this list are very > fortunate to have this goal in common and so hopefully can be of support > to each other in this endeavour. ... those disciples who took refuge on hearing the Buddha were the ones that could 'get it'. Because of accumulated wisdom, they understood the Buddha's words at a level that we today can only wish for. They were, relativley speaking, on the brink of enlightenment. So when in the suttas the buddha asked, for example, 'Is seeing permanent or impermanent?', their answer 'Impermanent' would have been given from an understanding based on direct experience of the reality at that moment. It is unlikely that we in this life will ever reach such a level of understanding (speaking for myself, at least), but it remains of course our aspiration for attainment at the appropriate time. Jon > > On many occasions, when I have > > been reading messages posted by you and other members of this list, > > the penny has dropped.There are lucid moment when everything seems to > > fall into place. I wish I could hold on to those moments but they go > > and I find myself making the same mistakes -- thinking I can control > > things. > > > > I only hope that you will not get tired of giving these > > explanations. I need to see them time and time again. > > Thanks for your kind and encouraging words. There is I hope no chance > of > ever getting tired of going over the same ground, since if there is one > thing I have come to realise it is that one never gets beyond needing to > be reminded again and again of the same basic truths -- that it is the > reality appearing at the present moment that is to be known, that > reality > and nothing else. > > Jon 7017 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 0:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Noble Eightfold Path - Jonothan Erik Thanks for the comprehensive and forceful response to my post. I intend to come back as soon as possible. --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Jonothan, what, can't go a day without spoiling for a good debate? > The only people worse in this regard than lawyers are Gelug- > pas! :) :) :) I am honoured by the comparison (I think). > (and now that you've seen my intensity firsthand you know where all > this viriya comes from! Not intensity, Erik, but good old-fashioned earnestness. It was a delight meeting you and sharing the week-end. -- plus, it's just such a great joy to be > here in BKK sharing Dhamma with all my friends here--I find no > activity more delightful than fully immmersing this body, speech, and > mind in the Holy Dhamma!) :) :) :) I am truly envious!! Jon 7018 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 0:18pm Subject: Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) --- Howard wrote: > > > > ============================== > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about Right > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And what of all > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the suttas? > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma understanding, then > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are further > apart than i had realized. > Perhaps I am totally missing what you are saying. Please lead me out > of my confusion! > > With metta, > Howard ________________ Dear Howard and Ji\on, The following quote may be relevant here. From the atthasalini, p204 where they talk about the fivefold path: "For althogh the pAth is eightfold, yet, in the wordly consciousness the tthree abstinces are not obtained at one and the same instant. hence it is said to be fivefold only. BUT it may be objected, there is this scripture;'The path by which one came is a phrase for the eightfold ariyan path'(samyutta 1v 195)In this sutta the path of insight preceeding the transcendental path is eightfold. now since the mundane path as implied by the term 'path by which they came'is eightfold, should it not be eightfold here also?' Nay, it should not be. the suttanta teaching is carried out by expounding. In this way he said, for instance, 'verily his bodily acts, vocal acts and life were quite pure'(majhhimma 111 289). BUT this abhidhamma teaching is bare teaching without exposition. in the worldly consciousness the three abstinces are not obtained at one and the same instant and therefore the Path is fivefold"ENDQUOTE. It helps us to read the texts if we know that satipatthana and the eighfold (fivefold) path are identical. A moment of satipatthana is a moment of the fivefold path. it is the beginning of insight into paramattha dhamma. These things gradually become clearer to me over the years. robert 7019 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 0:41pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [OffList] A late welcome - Second welcome! --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Hi Gayan, > > Well it does explain why you both sign off in the same way with rgds and no > name!!! Thanks for clearing this up.....and yes you do know each other!! I > expect others worked this out, but I'm a bit slow with this kind of thing! > > Interested to hear you're working in Boston now...sometime let us know what > you're doing there ;-)) > > Thanks Gayan and perhaps we can persuade you to put a name at the end as > you're > using different addresses..;-)) > > Sarah > > p.s Always glad to hear from you when you chip in on threads btw such as the > nibbana one. > > --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > oops , oops, > > 1000 apologies sarah! _/\_ > > > > asterix7 is my account, but when I respond from the site(groups.yahoo.com) > > it only registers the email address(since I havent entered the name there). > > > > i was just replying cybele, about what i think of SL's serendipity. > > and mumbling about how less stressful it would have been for me if the > > refuge was meaningful to me even earlier. > > > > sorry for the confusion, > > and it also states that no-one here can slip away from you :o) > > > > anyway another welcome is quite OK for me. > > > > regards > > gayan > > > > PS: currently I am working in Boston, another reason why I have to use > > several email accounts. 7020 From: Erik Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 1:57pm Subject: Re: Noble Eightfold Path - Jonothan --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Erick: > Here is just a short comment of mine with respect to your discussion > on the Noble Eightfold Path with Khun Jonothan. What I would like say > is that we are not wise enough to understand the essence of the > Dhamma just picking up a sutta or severl suttas (regardless how > important these suttas are). We have to begin someplace, Tadao. If beginning where we are RIGHT NOW were not possible, the Buddha would never have taught this Holy Dharma. If even those with seriously stubborn attachments to wrong views like Yamaka can learn to see things as they are and terminate the effluents--with the Buddha strategically guiding Yamaka out of wrong view and into Right View using only a bit of basic reasoning-- what about those with even milder affectations? (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-085.html) Certainly, if were not possible to distinguish between wholesome and unwholesome qualities and activities, then the Buddha would never have assented to Brahma's request to teach the Holy Dharma at all, let alone instruct the "run-of-the-mill" persons, such as the Kalamas, thus-wise: "Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when undertaken & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' -- then you should abandon them." Again, we must begin where we are, and over time, reflecting thusly: "When [we] know for [ourselves] that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when undertaken & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' -- then [we] should abandon them." Likewise, "When [we] know for [ourselves] that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when undertaken & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' -- then [we] should enter & remain in them." This teaching is something basic enough, again, for even a child to grasp and put into practice. And this very method will, practiced diligently, persistently, mindfully, over time, create the very conditions necessary for Right View to arise--which is the fruit of the ariyan path. Indeed, Lord Buddha begins his exposition on Right View at precisely this point: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > We have to cast our eyes rather widely > and read as many discourses as possible. Based on such background > knowledge of the discourse and favourably based on (some) understanding > of the Abhidhamma and based on what other people have been arguing > about the true nature of the Dhamma, we have to draw our > (tentative) conclusion on what the Dhamma is all about. At least until we come to DIRECTLY know that reality, when all speculation is terminated and the meaning and intent of the Dhamma ceases to be a matter of doubt. At this point it also ceases to be possible to misinterpret the meaning & intent of the Buddha or the Dharma, since the goal, Nibbana (which is ultimately the absence of all fabrications and elaborations and clinging), has been experienced directly. > (Please do not think that I am saying that you are not a learned man.) > There are so many formulaic(?spelling?) definitions of various Buddhist > concepts. And I think it is rather dangerous to accept these formulaic > definitions LITERALLY. I really do not believe the Dhamma is at all complicated. I believe people tend to make it a WHOLE LOT more complicated than it really is. Indeed, if the Dharma is about relinquishing views, suppositions, fabrications, then simply letting go of all our clinging to views, suppositions, and fabrications by seeing how all composed things are ultimately suffering due to their impermanent nature, and that they do not belong to self, is sufficient to bring about direct knowledge of the ariyan path. It need not be any more complicated than this-- except we always want to make it a whole more complicated than this. This was rightly expounded by Anathapindika, the householder: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an10-093.html > (They are almost like a doctor's prescriptions; > unless one has been trained in medicine/pharmacology, these are not > understandable.) I could not disagree more if what you are suggesting is that one needs to know medical theory to be cured by taking the appropriately prescribed medicine at the appropriate time--which is exactly what it sounds like you're saying here! Most definitely the DOCTOR needs to know the precise remedy to prescribe the patient based on understanding the patient's specific ailment. But does it require a degree in medicine to take a tablet and wash it down with a glass of water? Hardly. And yet that medicine, taken according to such a very simple prescription (if the doctor is in fact knowledgeable in treating that particular ailment and has prescribed the appropriate remedy) will cure that patient whether or not the patient knows the first thing about medical theory, whether or not the patient even WANTS to be cured or not! > When we read the Sutta-Pitakas, there are > hundred and hindered of discourses where the Buddha repeatedly describes > that seeing is impermanent/non-self/suffering etc. Agreed. However, we are talking about beginning someplace, and the context of this specific debate was the contention that the Noble Eightfold Path can't be understood or practiced at the conventional, or so-called mundane, level. That is very clearly not the case if one reads the Buddha's most direct discourse on the Analysis of the Path. In many cases where the Buddha speaks plainly, as he does very much so in the Magga-Vibhanga Sutta, a literal interpretation is simply "good enough" to begin working with right away. The teachings enumerated in that particular Sutta are not at all difficult to grasp for one of even modest intellect, let alone the sorts of minds populating DSG! Again, why the need to complicate what is so simple, so nearer-than-near? More generally it is extremely problematic to wrongly believe that we can't practice the Dharma effectively unless we're trying to be aware of "paramattha dhammas" all the time, to the point of unhealthy clinging to the VIEW of "realities arising at present." Any practice can be taken to extremes, including the notions of being aware of the present moment, and this is especially pernicious when this is used as an excuse to neglect the more so-called "mundane" aspects of the path: dana, sila, the practice of accumulating merit and general kusala, for example. It is even worse when there is the wrong understanding that arises that wrongly believes the path to be unattainable in this very lifetime. To wrongly believe this way is to sign our own death warrant, because it will, MOST DEFINITELY, destroy the very aspiration and wholesome desire--not to mention directly undermine the persistence required--to actualize the fruits of the Holy Life IN THIS VERY LIFETIME, which is, if we lack direct knowledge of past and future lives, the ONLY ONE WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN WE WILL HAVE in which we have contact with the Holy Dharma and the ALL the appropriate conditions to bring this path to fruition, RIGHT HERE AND NOW. > By way of appreciating > the significance of the Buddha repeating on the true nature of these phenomena, > we can slowly work on the formulaic definitions of the Buddhist concepts > (It takes time to appreciate/understand the true meanings of these > formulaic expressions. If these expressions were something which could > be understood literally, Gotam Buddha's immediate successors wouldn't > have put so much effort to establish the paradigm which now we call > "Theravada Buddhism".) Again, Tadao, I think you're making this a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be. Is it not possible to take what the Buddha stated so very simply at face-value for starters, and work from there? Does it have to be run through layer after layer of cognitive filters to understand that when the Buddha talks about "wrong speech," for example, it can be comprehended and applied immediately in its simplest sense, even if Right View is not yet fully developed? Can one begin by attempting to refrain from making false speech, for example, without understanding anatta? Can one not place oneself in the position of another sentient being and consider that by taking their property without it being given would likely create grief, lamentation, despair for that being? Or diddling another's spouse? Does it require a through-going penetration of anicca, dukkha, and anatta to begin working with these oh-so-basic factors of the path right here and now? Again, we have to begin where we are. And that will mean there is wrong view until Right View has the appropriate conditions to arise. But the conditions for Right View to arise will never be established unless we actually begin at the beginning, by learning to discern what is and what is not wholesome--something again, possible even for a run-of-the-mill person who's received instruction in this most basic of practices. 7021 From: Erik Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 2:22pm Subject: Re: Noble Eightfold Path - Jonothan --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > Thanks for the comprehensive and forceful response to my post. I intend > to come back as soon as possible. Just to be clear, I didn't mean to be THAT forceful, on careful re- examination of my post to you. It's just that being here amongst all these fabulous friends in the Dhamma has gotten me more fired up than I've been in a long time, plus the relief from a lot of really intense dukkha of the past few years has released enormous stores of energy I haven't known in as long, and I'm not used to it at the moment, and have to restart formal samatha & concentration practice to work more skillfully with it. > > (and now that you've seen my intensity firsthand you know where all > > this viriya comes from! > > Not intensity, Erik, but good old-fashioned earnestness. It was a delight > meeting you and sharing the week-end. Likewise, likewise, my friend! :) 7022 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 2:56pm Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Robert E, Thanks for taking the time reply. I will be augmenting what you said only and won't be arguing because the scope of the topic is beyond my knowledge. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Well, let's say this: even though seen objects are not conditioned by seeing > consciousness, Whew! At least we agree on this point! > the seen objects are limited insofar as they are taken in by seeing > consciousness via the form of the seeing consciousness. You are saying here that the inherent characteristic of what is seen is not conditioned by the seeing consciousness. On the other hand, the characteristic as seen by the seeing consciousness is conditioned because the seeing consciousness itself is conditioned. Although I haven't seen this point explicitly mentioned in the text, it is certainly logical. Each individiual, depending on the eyesights, definitely sees differently. > If a conditioned [limited and particularly structured] consciousness is able to > apprehend Nibbana, it will likewise be apprehending Nibbana according to its form > and limitations, ie, its conditioning. Therefore, while Nibbana may be an object > for this conditioned consciousness, the view of Nibbana that the limited > consciousness apprehends will be a limited [untrue] version of Nibbana, not > Nibbana itself. On the other hand, then none of the true nature of the dhammas (besides nibbana) can ever be penetrated (except maybe at some special moment), as it is always conditioned. By this logic, even the Buddha (unless you take his consciousness as being nibbana and is not conditioned) cannot penetrate the true nature of the dhamma fully. > > Since Nibbana is the only unlimited, unconditioned state, only Nibbana itself can > apprehend Nibbana as it truly is, but if it were to theoretically split itself in > order to be able to apprehend itself, it would instantly decline into a limited, > divided consciousness of subject-object, with a limited, conditioned version of > Nibbana apprehending itself as a limited, objectified version of itself. I certainly only have heard about this explanation for the first time! > This is the logic by which I feel that Nibbana cannot possibly be apprehended by > consciousness without objectifying, limiting and dividing it into a conditioned > object or concept, which is to say, not Nibbana itself, but an apprehendable > version of itself. > I don't see how this logic can be refuted, but I'm sure if it has been refuted in > the suttas themselves, then there is good reason why I am not understanding the > dynamic of the advanced consciousnesses and their relation to Nibbana. This is > very possible, since my education in Buddhism is somewhat limited itself. Thanks again for the explanation. I think the logics is workable. I haven't seen any texts (except commentaries) that explicitly refutes or supports this explanation. > But in the case of thinking of concepts, I don't see how the form of the thinking > consciousness would not condition the concepts, since thoughts, unlike outer > objects, are influenced by consciousness. If my consciousness is unable to > understand the color red, the concept of the color red will not show up as the > color red for that consciousness. Now maybe once again I am not understanding the > use of 'consciousness' here. If it is merely a passive recorder of whatever > concepts/objects happen to land on it, then your formulation would make sense to > me, and objects and concepts would have the same status, in conditioning the > consciousness that apprehends them, while not being conditioned by it themselves. The explanation that I have heard is that since concepts don't have actual characteristics. They don't rise, don't fall, and therefore, has no condition. I personally don't understand this explanation fully, as you have pointed, that it seems to be against logics... kom 7023 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 4:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) Rob Thanks very much for this passage from the Atthasalini, which is directly on point (more so perhaps than anything I have been able to find myself). --- Erik wrote: > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > > > ============================== > > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about > Right > > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And > what of all > > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the > suttas? > > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma > understanding, then > > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are > further > > apart than i had realized. > > Perhaps I am totally missing what you are saying. Please lead > me > out > > of my confusion! > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ________________ > Dear Howard and Ji\on, > The following quote may be relevant here. > From the atthasalini, p204 where they talk about the fivefold > path: > "For althogh the pAth is eightfold, yet, in the wordly > consciousness the tthree abstinces are not obtained at one and > the same instant. hence it is said to be fivefold only. BUT it > may be objected, there is this scripture;'The path by which one > came is a phrase for the eightfold ariyan path'(samyutta 1v > 195)In this sutta the path of insight preceeding the > transcendental path is eightfold. now since the mundane path as > implied by the term 'path by which they came'is eightfold, > should it not be eightfold here also?' > Nay, it should not be. the suttanta teaching is carried out by > expounding. In this way he said, for instance, 'verily his > bodily acts, vocal acts and life were quite pure'(majhhimma 111 > 289). BUT this abhidhamma teaching is bare teaching without > exposition. in the worldly consciousness the three abstinces are > not obtained at one and the same instant and therefore the Path > is fivefold"ENDQUOTE. > > It helps us to read the texts if we know that satipatthana and > the eighfold (fivefold) path are identical. A moment of > satipatthana is a moment of the fivefold path. it is the > beginning of insight into paramattha dhamma. > These things gradually become clearer to me over the years. > robert If I may expand a little for the sake of the other members interested in this thread. The passage confirms, as I read it, that only at supramundane moments do all 8 path factors arise together, while at mundane moments 5 path factors arise. I of course agree, as I think Rob is suggesting, that references in the suttas to 8-fold path moments (moments which must necessarily be supramundane) can be read as referring also to the mundane 5-fold version(ie. moments of satipatthana) in appropriate contexts. The point is though that we are talking about a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by the path-factors, and this makes it a moment of a quality quite different to that of any other kusala moment (such as, for example, a moment of jhana), since kusala moments that are not of the level of satipatthana (ie. are not path-factor moments) do not lead away from samsara but to continuation in the round of existence. This is why the emphasis of the Buddha's teaching should be seen in terms of the development of satipatthana rather than of other forms of kusala, although we do not for one moment neglect the latter since without them the opportunity for continued development of satipatthana (ie. continued rebirth in planes where the dhamma is alive) will not be there. Jon 7024 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 6:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/1/01 12:20:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > > > ============================== > > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about Right > > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And > what of all > > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the > suttas? > > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma > understanding, then > > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are > further > > apart than i had realized. > > Perhaps I am totally missing what you are saying. Please lead me > out > > of my confusion! > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ________________ > Dear Howard and Ji\on, > The following quote may be relevant here. > From the atthasalini, p204 where they talk about the fivefold > path: > "For althogh the pAth is eightfold, yet, in the wordly > consciousness the tthree abstinces are not obtained at one and > the same instant. hence it is said to be fivefold only. BUT it > may be objected, there is this scripture;'The path by which one > came is a phrase for the eightfold ariyan path'(samyutta 1v > 195)In this sutta the path of insight preceeding the > transcendental path is eightfold. now since the mundane path as > implied by the term 'path by which they came'is eightfold, > should it not be eightfold here also?' > Nay, it should not be. the suttanta teaching is carried out by > expounding. In this way he said, for instance, 'verily his > bodily acts, vocal acts and life were quite pure'(majhhimma 111 > 289). BUT this abhidhamma teaching is bare teaching without > exposition. in the worldly consciousness the three abstinces are > not obtained at one and the same instant and therefore the Path > is fivefold"ENDQUOTE. > > It helps us to read the texts if we know that satipatthana and > the eighfold (fivefold) path are identical. A moment of > satipatthana is a moment of the fivefold path. it is the > beginning of insight into paramattha dhamma. > These things gradually become clearer to me over the years. > robert > =============================== Wow! What a to-the-point post!! Very helpful. Thank you, Robert!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7025 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 3:06am Subject: Offline Hi, folks, I've used up all my ISP time package so I'll be offline till around Aug 8 or 9. Derek. 7026 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 4:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Offline Hi derek, if u r in either US or Canada , u can use netZero. rgds gayan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Cameron" Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Offline > Hi, folks, > > I've used up all my ISP time package so I'll be offline till around > Aug 8 or 9. > > Derek. > 7027 From: ppp Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) Hi, Rob and Jonothan: With respect to the Five/Eight-fold Path. I do not understand why sila is exluced. In my understanding, even in a very very very mudane moment of having a sati, at that moment, (in conventional terms,) one is on a solid ground of sila (vaca, kammanta, ajiva); without sila, one wouldn't otherwise experience the right kind of sati which experiences a reality. It is then not clear at all for me why these sila factors are excluded (when they disucss such far far higher levels of Path factors. In other words, I do not understand WHY Attha-salini supports the Five-Fold Path argument. tadao 7028 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 0:09pm Subject: Re: Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Rob and Jonothan: > With respect to the Five/Eight-fold Path. I do not understand > why sila is exluced. In my understanding, even in a very very > very mudane moment of having a sati, at that moment, (in > conventional terms,) one is on a solid ground of sila > (vaca, kammanta, ajiva); without sila, one wouldn't otherwise > experience the right kind of sati which experiences > a reality. It is then not clear at all for me why these sila > factors are excluded (when they disucss such far far higher > levels of Path factors. In other words, I do not understand > WHY Attha-salini supports the Five-Fold Path argument. > tadao ____________ Dear Tadao, At any moment of satipatthana there is no breaking of sila. There is guarding of the doors. However, there is not necessarily those specific types of cetasikas of "right livelihood etc.' Nevertheless, although the atthasalini talks only about the fivfold path it can also be sixfold if one of those type of cetasikas are present at moments of the fivefold path. However all 8factors are only present at the actual moments nibbana is experienced. Because we cling to concepts and stories we tend to think that there is sila all day if we are not doing anything obviously wrong. However, true sila only arises at moments of kusala citta (some). robert 7029 From: Erik Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 0:24pm Subject: Re: Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Rob and Jonothan: > With respect to the Five/Eight-fold Path. I do not understand > why sila is exluced. In my understanding, even in a very very > very mudane moment of having a sati, at that moment, (in > conventional terms,) one is on a solid ground of sila > (vaca, kammanta, ajiva); without sila, one wouldn't otherwise > experience the right kind of sati which experiences > a reality. It is then not clear at all for me why these sila > factors are excluded (when they disucss such far far higher > levels of Path factors. In other words, I do not understand > WHY Attha-salini supports the Five-Fold Path argument. > tadao Tadoa, I agree. For me, this is a "like, duh" sorta thing! How could we NOT be experincing sila these moments? And Jonothan, I hope you're not reply ony due to time constraints. I'm concerned the strength of my replies has made communicating difficult (kif so, I apologize profusely). If that is the case it is a cause for serious regret. Because I am definitely not looking to "win" ANY debate, but keep the discussion going until we both feel our collective understanding has been clarified--the entire point of Buddhist debate. That goes likewise for anyone, because the purpose of formal Buddhist debate (at least the Tibetan version) as I've been taught, is to help lead ALL the parcitipants (and spectators!) to understanding. In fact, DIRECT understanding (because Tibetan debate involves specifically debating emptiness and depencent origination--and there are some who have had had such strong moments of stipatthana arise in the courses of debate on emptiness they have realized the emptiness DURIGN the process of debate or shortly thereafter, as I recall reading happened to Lama Yeshe as he told Lama Zopa, both of whom whom Sarah has had the astonishing karma to have met). The entire point is to get to Right View. So there are no losers in this, nor can there be when the spirit of such debate is properly understood and practiced. Just wanted to add that for those who may not know about this incredible tradition of learning the Dharma, and one very relevant to forums such as these. It is my favorite form of Dharma interaction, due to accumulations. 7030 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 0:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Noble Eightfold Path - Jonothan Dear Erik, Thanks for your posts with excellent Theravada sutta citations.. --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Set aside the Visuddhimagga! Set aside the Abhidhammata-Sangaha! In > fact, take the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka, its commentaries and sub- > commentaries, and set the WHOLE THING aside, until the essential > points above are grasped in their entirety, You wouldn't be moving the goalposts now, would you, Erik???;-)) What's happened to that very well-worn book you even read on flights and were using in support of your arguments to me (on dsg) just a week ago..? > > Do you have direct experience if this type of concentration arising > from the method of practice you've been taught? Erik, at any moment of rt understanding of a reality, there is always rt concentration accompanying it . At these moments samma-samadhi focuses on the object of the citta in the appropriate or 'right' way. When the citta falls away, so do the rt understanding, rt concentration and other cetasikas accompanying it. When (read IF) lokuttara citta arises, the samma-samadhi accompanying it is then lokuttara and focuses on nibbana. At this moment, samma-samadhi and the other cetasikas being discussed are factors of the supramundane N8FP. Again, as the lokuttara citta falls away, so do the samma-samadhi and the rest. So, rt concentration always accompanies rt understanding from the very beginning (by conditions) and performs its function without any need to focus or 'attend' to special objects. Indeed, due to the anattaness of all these conditioned realities, there is no self that can determine the experiencing of any object or direct any citta. If it were so simple, we'd all have been arahats long ago! Glad to see you having such fun on and off-list! Sarah 7031 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 0:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Thanks for your response, Kom. The summary of my thinking about Nibbana being apprehended by an advanced consciousness is just that until the moment of entering Nibbana, Nibbana must remain as a concept. I don't see how it can be truly apprehended by a conditioned consciousness. That does not mean Nibbana is unattainable, just that in the moment of attaining Nibbana, one's condition would go beyond Nibbana being apprehended as a separate object of consciousness and Nibbana would simply become one's reality. I would love to hear any other responses to this, more learned than mine. Robert ------------------------------- --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert E, > > Thanks for taking the time reply. I will be augmenting what you said only > and won't be arguing because the scope of the topic is beyond my > knowledge. =============== 7032 From: Erik Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 0:47pm Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks for your response, Kom. > > The summary of my thinking about Nibbana being apprehended by an advanced > consciousness is just that until the moment of entering Nibbana, Nibbana must > remain as a concept. I don't see how it can be truly apprehended by a conditioned > consciousness. That does not mean Nibbana is unattainable, just that in the > moment of attaining Nibbana, one's condition would go beyond Nibbana being > apprehended as a separate object of consciousness and Nibbana would simply become > one's reality. > > I would love to hear any other responses to this, more learned than mine. You just succinctly stated the position I have taken on all of this, far better that I ever have! Thank you! 7033 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 0:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Erik wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Thanks for your response, Kom. > > > > The summary of my thinking about Nibbana being apprehended by an > advanced > > consciousness is just that until the moment of entering Nibbana, > Nibbana must > > remain as a concept. I don't see how it can be truly apprehended by > a conditioned > > consciousness. That does not mean Nibbana is unattainable, just > that in the > > moment of attaining Nibbana, one's condition would go beyond > Nibbana being > > apprehended as a separate object of consciousness and Nibbana would > simply become > > one's reality. > > > > I would love to hear any other responses to this, more learned than > mine. > > You just succinctly stated the position I have taken on all of this, > far better that I ever have! Thank you! I am glad to hear it, since I feel I am slightly shooting in the dark! Regards, Robert E. 7034 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 1:18pm Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks for your response, Kom. > > The summary of my thinking about Nibbana being apprehended by an advanced > consciousness is just that until the moment of entering Nibbana, Nibbana must > remain as a concept. I don't see how it can be truly apprehended by a conditioned > consciousness. That does not mean Nibbana is unattainable, just that in the > moment of attaining Nibbana, one's condition would go beyond Nibbana being > apprehended as a separate object of consciousness and Nibbana would simply become > one's reality. > I think the statement that the actual characteristics of nibbana cannot be experienced until the englightenment would be agreed on by many (if not all?) members in this list. Nibbana as a concept can be experienced by anybody. On the other hand, as discussed earliers, there are hypothesis (for me, and perhaps actuality for others) that what experience nibbana are the lokuttara cittas and mental factors (including the N8FP factors) which are conditioned realities. This hypothesis is, of course, in contrary to the logics that you have already discussed, that the true characteristics of nibbana, as unconditioned realities, cannot be fully experienced by a conditioned consciousness. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and unconditioned) can be fully experienced. kom 7035 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 1:42pm Subject: Erik's debating skills OK Erik, --- Erik wrote: > It is my favorite form of > Dharma interaction, due to accumulations. > > Let's see if i'm getting the idea..(feel free to correct;-)) 1. Overwhelm your 'friend' with volume and sheer intensity 2. Move the goalposts to suit the debate in hand 3. Never concede but instead use your friend's arguments to debate with other friends elsewhere (eg on other lists) 4. If you don't have a ready answer, smile ;-)) and say nothing 5. Come back instantly to ensure your friend has no time to check references or do any mundane work 6. Get as far away from Head office as possible so that one really can devote all day to debates without anyone looking over one's shoulder. Preferably, dismiss all household and other mundane chores too 7. Learn that the more objections and the more one's name is mentioned specifically, the better case one is presenting and the more fun your friend is having 8. Learn that this is really the way to your friend's heart;-)) How's that? Just know, Erik, that we always enjoy discussions with you and any lack of response or tardiness is only because we haven't quite mastered all the points and in particular, point 6!! Give a little lee-way to beginners.... Sarah 7036 From: Erik Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 2:41pm Subject: Re: Erik's debating skills --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > OK Erik, > > --- Erik wrote: > > > It is my favorite form of > > Dharma interaction, due to accumulations. > > > > > Let's see if i'm getting the idea..(feel free to correct;-)) > > 1. Overwhelm your 'friend' with volume and sheer intensity This is standard mode of "challenger" in Tibetan debate, actually. The point of this is deliberately to get the "defender" "off their game" and test direct understanding here & now. Khun Sujin and the rest of this tough group really nailed me on a few occasions there! This is as it should be. This happens very quickly in real-time in the monastic debating courtyards every Gleug-pa monastery has specifically for this purpose. What happens here on DSG is SLOW by comparison, and it was refreshing to have to try to reply in real- time to this group of VERY tough customers. Makes me realize I have to get this Theravada presentation down COLD. Incidentally, at some point, if there is any interest, I will post here my lama's foreward to Daniel Perdue's tome "Debate in Tibetan Buddhism" (page 9 for those interested). It was translated by my teacher Artemus Engle (my lama's senior student along with Geshe Michael Roach), who is considered by other Tibetan scholars like Robert Thurman and others to be THE expert in Abhidharma in the West, having translated the 'kosa from Sanskrit. In fact, it was Art who gave me enough of a basis in Abhidharma so that I could come here and not get totally creamed by this group. As one of my sangha back in NY asked me the other day, why did you come all the way to to Thailand when you have the BEST right here, and he's already your teacher? I told her that in the same way it was Art translating the 'kosa (plus three years of one-on-one instruction from my lama in Abhidharma) that is WHY he's considered the expert, that to study and do a comparative analysis of these two systems of the Tripitaka's Abhidhamma vs. the Abhidharmakosa (and working out a computerized model of the categories and relations) would be my way of relly learning this amazing system thoroughly. > 2. Move the goalposts to suit the debate in hand Not at all. One essential aspect of Buddhist debate in specific is using ONLY those texts or arguments both debaters agree on completely. In other words, if one takes a line of reasoning, even if CORRECT reasoning, that one's "opponent" doesn't accept, then that is considered to be an error. Why? Because the purpose is to come to DIRECT understanding, to lead out of wrong views into Right View, and if someone doesn't accept a specific thesis, then that purpose has been blown. Knowledge will not arise if one refuses to accept a basic premise, and as such is considered an "error" because it does not help sentient beings out of confusion and into wisdom. Consider the Yamaka Sutta for an example of how the Buddha skillfully used basic logic to lead Yamaka out of his annihilation view. To think the purpose of Buddhist debate means anything else is to have entirely missed the point, which is for ALL to gain Right Understanding. So returning to the Suttas, which Jon and I both accept as canonical, and accept as primary material, really is correct method according to this principle. I don't necessarily accept the commentaries as-is without analysis, and if I have any questions I'm much more interested in seeing first what the Buddha actually is reputed to have said, and then reading the commentaries in that light. In fact, if I have any doubt about at all, on any point (Tibetan, Zen, Theravadin), I always feel it imperative to go back to the most primary material availble, the Suttas reputed to have been heard as the direct words of the Buddha. For example, do you see me tossing "Mahayana" Sutras out here? Only in the rarest cases--ex. Nagarjuna, and then in light of what the Pali texts themselves say, as a way of clarifying that position. Why? Because I know not everyone HERE accepts them as canonical (though if I am debating Gelug-pas I can use ALL my training, inc. Nagarjuna, the Tibetan masters like Je Tonsgkhapa, etc.). This is why if there's any dout about an interpretation within a later text NOT reputed to have been spoken by Lord Buddha verbally and recorded as such, I cannot debate from that perspective here, because I don't accept it at that point. So this is not "moving the goalposts," but actually toeing the Buddhist-debate line perfectly. > 3. Never concede but instead use your friend's arguments to debate with other > friends elsewhere (eg on other lists) I have conceded many many times! For example, Robert forced me to concede on what I believe is a very imporatnt point, through his careful argumentation and pointing me at various references I came to accept as correct, namely, that it is possible that there are such things as sukkhavipassika practitioners. This is no mean feat! And I have mentioned this to Robert with extreme thankfulness on many occasions. Anyway, the point is not to "concede" or not, but again, to come to correct understanding of the INNER meaning and INTENT of the Buddha's teachings. Without undersatnding truth from fabrication, liberation is imopssible. > 4. If you don't have a ready answer, smile ;-)) and say nothing In real-life, there could be many reasons for that, not always beacuse I lack a ready "answer." If I don't know something, from your experience of me here and in person, am I the sort to say pretend to know something if I don't? I certainly hope not. In fact, I think I admit early and often that I have MUCH yet to learn, and hardly pretend to know everything, and furthermore, that I consider all beings as my teachers, and listen carefully to advice from any and all, because I have had, for some reason, the karma to hear that advice spoken, and as such it gives me something to ponder and reflect on carefully. That does not mean to say I always accept that advice as correct after careful condsideration. Nevertheless, there is not a being in the triple-realm I don't have something to learn something from. Ergo, everyone is in this regard my teacher. > 5. Come back instantly to ensure your friend has no time to check references or > do any mundane work Again, given the ruthless grilling I was given both Saturday and Sunday that should work both ways! :) I was given NO breathing room at all to consider any answers and got hammered consistently from ten sides simultaneously, all taking one position, and Erik the lonely defender of an entirely different system of teaching, having to hold up against such withering (and entirely relished) challenge! It was exhausting, frankly. But what a great mode of instruction for me! It made me feel like I'm starting all over again! It also erally inspired me to go to my "home" monastery Sera Mey and practice formal debate there with the monks at lenght. I expect to do so somethime this next year. > 6. Get as far away from Head office as possible so that one really can devote > all day to debates without anyone looking over one's shoulder. Preferably, > dismiss all household and other mundane chores too Sarah, dear, if you know just how much "mundane" work I've been doing since arriving here you'd have no cause to say that! I've been working harder here, now, than I EVER did back in NY. Trust me! > 7. Learn that the more objections and the more one's name is mentioned > specifically, the better case one is presenting and the more fun your friend is > having I sure hope so! :) > 8. Learn that this is really the way to your friend's heart;-)) And I sure hope that as well! > How's that? Just know, Erik, that we always enjoy discussions with you and any > lack of response or tardiness is only because we haven't quite mastered all the > points and in particular, point 6!! Give a little lee-way to beginners.... Phhhbbbbttt!!!! I love and deeply admire and respect you both, as you know. So let's keep it coming! :) :) And, I must say, Sarah, I'm impressed. You seem to have gotten that "challenger" thing going here pretty well yourself (although Sat. & Sun. was I ever in the "defender's" hotseat! Talking about making me WORK for my Dhamma! Phew!) I wound up sleeping nearly tweleve hours Sun. night from the sheer intensity of this past weekend and yours (and others) ruthless (in the very kindest sense of the word) grilling! I look forward to much much more of this! 7037 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 2:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Five-fold path (Howard and Jon) Erik (and Howard, Herman and others) Just coming in here to assure you my silence is due solely to time constraints and nothing else. My apologies for not getting back promptly, but other commitments sometimes make this difficult for a few days or so. (And I have never been one for instant replies anyway.) Jon --- Erik wrote: > And Jonothan, I hope you're not reply ony due to time constraints. > I'm concerned the strength of my replies has made communicating > difficult (kif so, I apologize profusely). > > If that is the case it is a cause for serious regret. Because I am > definitely not looking to "win" ANY debate, but keep the discussion > going until we both feel our collective understanding has been > clarified--the entire point of Buddhist debate. > > That goes likewise for anyone, because the purpose of formal Buddhist > debate (at least the Tibetan version) as I've been taught, is to help > lead ALL the parcitipants (and spectators!) to understanding. In > fact, DIRECT understanding (because Tibetan debate involves > specifically debating emptiness and depencent origination--and there > are some who have had had such strong moments of stipatthana arise in > the courses of debate on emptiness they have realized the emptiness > DURIGN the process of debate or shortly thereafter, as I recall > reading happened to Lama Yeshe as he told Lama Zopa, both of whom > whom Sarah has had the astonishing karma to have met). > > The entire point is to get to Right View. So there are no losers in > this, nor can there be when the spirit of such debate is properly > understood and practiced. Just wanted to add that for those who may > not know about this incredible tradition of learning the Dharma, and > one very relevant to forums such as these. It is my favorite form of > Dharma interaction, due to accumulations. 7038 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 4:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Tadao, It's really great to be in touch again and to share dhamma reminders....Some of your posts have been very helpful indeed. However, I just can't understand this one: --- ppp wrote: > Dear Kom and Mike: > In this real society we live (especially, if one lives outside > the so-called Buddhist countries), there aren't many opportunities > of having kusala cittas. Any opportunity of having kusal cittas > is precious. tadao > What about now, Tadao, wherever we live? Aren't there opportunities for kusala cittas? Aren't there opportunities to consider others, to have metta, to refrain from ill speech and most of all to have sati at the level of satipatthana, having read and heard so much (in your case in Pali as well as Thai and English) about seeing, visible object and all the rest? I fail to see why there are fewer opportunities in Canada than Thailand even if our kilesa mean that there is in fact far less kusala in a day than we'd like. I'd also like to add that rt view is the most important aspect; so even if one has been away from dhamma books and discussions for a long time, if rt view has been accumulated, this is more valuable than having studied and practised for these years with wrong view. In other words, don't feel that all your time in Canada has been wasted or less useful than if you'd been elsewhere as this is just thinking with dosa and regrets, isn't it? I'm sure there have been many moments of kusala at different levels according to your accumulations each day. Best wishes, Sarah p.s glad to hear your health is getting better....I'm sure all the dhamma consideration will be helping. By the way, one of the links here (the www.metta link)is to some of the Tipitaka in Pali, but you've probably seen it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links 7039 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 5:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the moment in between Dear Loke, --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Dear all, > > I was lurking a while because I couldn't really make head or tail > what are all of you are discussing... however I have a question.. do feel free to 'chip' in and ask anyone for clarification (or else just ignore the posts that are too confusing and come in with your own thread as you've done here;-) > > in between the arising and falling of a resultant kamma, is there > 1) a moment where no resultant kamma arise (be it bad or good) > > ex... say a resultant kamma having a cycle of 10 days, will the next > resultant kamma follow immediately after the dissipation of the first > resultant kammic energy ?... or > > 2) will there be a reprieve of a few minutes or days or event > moments... where nothing happens... sort of like waiting for the next > resultant kamma to happen kind of thing...??? > > I hope you get what I am trying to say.... To be quite frank, I don't get it actually (and I suspect this may be why others haven't replied either!) I wonder if by resultant kamma you mean vipaka, the result of kamma? So, for example, seeing now is vipaka, the result of kamma and so is hearing, smeeling, tasting, touching and there are many other vipaka cittas (moments of consciousness). We have no idea when the kamma (the cetana , intention) action was performed to bring about this result of seeing or hearing now. Some kamma will have been done in this life and some in previous lives, but it doesn't help to try and speculate about what and when, I think. There are no fixed time spans for when vipaka will arise. When there aren't moments of vipaka arising, then there are other kinds of citta (consciousness).There is never a moment (for us) when there is no consciousness arising. I've tried to put this simply, but actually the subject is complex. I think you have a few confusions and I highly recommend 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina Van Gorkom which is on some of the websites (on Amara's Dhamma Study website I know) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links There's also a good paper on Kamma by Khun Sujin on this website. You may also find it useful to read some of the past posts on 'Useful Posts' under subject headings such as kamma, vipaka, rounds of existence at:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POST%20LINKS If you have questions about any of these books or letters, please let us know. > May you all be well and happy... you too .... Sarah p.s.(dui m joh, ngoh yiga ho mong, soh yi m ji ching choh ne) 7040 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 5:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Animals - Nivarana/Jhananga Dear Christine, I understand your concern and wish to help animals around you to have a happier rebirth. --- Christine wrote: > Dear All, > So, with regard to the Hindrances - perhaps one can help by having a > well-trained and disciplined animal,who is prevented(?) from doing > too much wrong in order to assist it in having a better likelihood of > a more favourable rebirth? It's an interesting idea! Truly we have no idea what deeds from the past will bring what rebirth. As Erik pointed out with the apt turtle sutta, being born as a human with the chance to develop wholesomeness of any kind with wisdom of any level is a very precious gift. I don't think we can prevent another being (human, animal or other) from having hindrances or other unwholesome states of mind. All we can do is show kindness in anyway and as with a child, this can include training and discipline, which can give the animal an easier life perhaps. When there is attachment to another being, of course there is also attachment to a happy outcome or rebirth for that being. But, we're beginning to see that conditions are so very complex and so very out of 'our' control. An animal birth is considered an unhappy rebirth, it's akusala vipaka, partly because there is not the opportunity to develop wisdom of any kind (let alone highly developed jhanas or vipassana). Being born a human is kusala vipaka, however ghastly the circumstances may seem. Even if we, as humans, perform many, many good deeds in this life and develop some wisdom along the way, there's no way of knowing what the next rebirth will be and no self to help it. However, as we read in the example of the bats which Rob gave, we never know what conditions may have some beneficial effect. Some of the mental states you mention such as ekaggata, vitakka and vicara arise for all beings (kusala and akusala) and some like ekaggata at each moment......but not as jhananga. Christine, thanks for your comments which i don't think I've done justice to. Others may be able to help further;-) Wishing your pets well in the meantime! Sarah 7041 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 6:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Sarah Must endorse your post fully this time. Dear Tadao Aversion is very much evident in your remarks about living in a western country but if you cannot adapt why you indulged staying there for 20 years? Buddhism is a legacy of humanity not of so-called 'buddhist countries'. This is only prejudice out of your own discomfort. To practice you don't need to be in Thailand or Japan, it's a question of INNER GEOGRAPHY. Having 'a mind' is the only condition to thread the path. Metta Cybele > Dear Tadao, > >It's really great to be in touch again and to share dhamma >reminders....Some of >your posts have been very helpful indeed. > >However, I just can't understand this one: > >--- ppp wrote: > Dear Kom and Mike: > > In this real society we live (especially, if one lives outside > > the so-called Buddhist countries), there aren't many opportunities > > of having kusala cittas. Any opportunity of having kusal cittas > > is precious. tadao > > > >What about now, Tadao, wherever we live? Aren't there opportunities for >kusala >cittas? Aren't there opportunities to consider others, to have metta, to >refrain from ill speech and most of all to have sati at the level of >satipatthana, having read and heard so much (in your case in Pali as well >as >Thai and English) about seeing, visible object and all the rest? I fail to >see >why there are fewer opportunities in Canada than Thailand even if our >kilesa >mean that there is in fact far less kusala in a day than we'd like. > >I'd also like to add that rt view is the most important aspect; so even if >one >has been away from dhamma books and discussions for a long time, if rt view >has >been accumulated, this is more valuable than having studied and practised >for >these years with wrong view. In other words, don't feel that all your time >in >Canada has been wasted or less useful than if you'd been elsewhere as this >is >just thinking with dosa and regrets, isn't it? I'm sure there have been >many >moments of kusala at different levels according to your accumulations each >day. > >Best wishes, >Sarah > >p.s glad to hear your health is getting better....I'm sure all the dhamma >consideration will be helping. By the way, one of the links here (the >www.metta >link)is to some of the Tipitaka in Pali, but you've probably seen it. > 7042 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 7:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity Anders Thanks for your comments. > > As I'm sure you know, applicable objects > include > > rupas as well as mental factors and consciousness, something that > people > > sometimes overlook. Everyone wants to know the mind, but no-one seems > > interested in boring old visible object, sound etc. > > When you stare at them long enough, your fingers are actually quite > visually > interesting. :-) Yes, I think I know what you mean. Here's a question for you, Anders. What in your view/experience is happening at such moments, when the fingers become 'visually interesting'. Is this because of what is happening in the eye-door process, or in the mind-door process, (assuming it's not changes in the finger!)? Is it kusala of some kind (understanding, perhaps) or is it akusala? > > In fact, we have > > exactly the same misconceptions (ie. wrong view) about these objects > when > > they appear as we do about mental objects -- we take them for self > (not > > always 'our' self, but self nonetheless), so they need to be known as > they > > are, too. > > Yup. It's always 'I' am thinking, but that 'I' is another mental > construct. > A clever one at that, but if the path were easy... But not only that. We also take the seen and the heard for being 'self', in the sense that it has existence in a manner similar to ourself. In whatever terms we perceive ourself, we are likely to 'project' to other 'objects'. Jon 7043 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Derek Thanks for the interesting and, to me, new perspective on the suttas. I am not really in a position to comment for the most part since I have never looked into this aspect. However, I have snomething to say on your 4th point-- > (4) Absence of concentration meditation as part of the path. The > Noble Eightfold Path is a core, early teaching -- it occurs almost > everywhere. But in DN 22 we have sati without samaadhi. Since the > early teachings and the Buddha's own practice included samaadhi, and > this one doesn't, we can infer that DN 22 is late rather than early. This seems to assume that the Noble Eightfold Path and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta are talking about the development of the path from the same point of view. As you may have noticed from another thread going on at the moment, this is something I would not agree with. The description of the N8FP makes it clear what factors are present at moments of path-consciousness, while DN 22 tells us how that path is to be developed. To my understanding, there is no inconsistency between the 2, so I would not wish to accept any conclusion based on an assumption that there was. Jon --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Hi, Jon, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Why don't you give it a try! > > Okay, here goes. > > There's various clues you can use to differentiate between earlier > and later material. Tadao mentioned one a few days ago -- namely, the > use of archaic word-forms in early material. I won't list all > possible tools used to stratify the nikaaya-s. Instead I'll just > refer to those that are relevant to our discussion of the > Mahasatipa.t.thaana Sutta (DN 22). > > (1) Over time, ordinary words become used in specialized, technical > meanings. Look at the word dhamma. In the early materials, it just > means teaching. But later on it comes to have the specifically > Buddhist meaning of mind-object. And in DN 22 we can already see the > word used in this later sense. The fourth section of DN 22, the > section on dhammaanupassanaa uses the word dhamma not only for > teachings, but also for mind-objects such as the five hindrances. So, > this is an indication of the lateness of the material. > > (2) Literary form. The early material consists of simple statements > and propositions. Later materials take the form of explanations, > analysis and commentary. Now, look at the presentation of the Four > Noble Truths toward the end of DN 22. We have the usual statement > that birth is suffering, old age is suffering, etc. But THEN in DN 22 > we have analysis of each of these terms -- what is birth? what is old > age? Each of these terms is commented upon within the sutta itself. > The use of the commentarial formal is again an indication of relative > lateness. > > (3) Elaboration of simple ideas comes after the simple ideas > themselves. The early material presents sati (mindfulness) without > much in the way of elaboration. But here we have a whole discourse on > what just this one point means. Again, this suggests it is later than > the simple proposition of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > (4) Absence of concentration meditation as part of the path. The > Noble Eightfold Path is a core, early teaching -- it occurs almost > everywhere. But in DN 22 we have sati without samaadhi. Since the > early teachings and the Buddha's own practice included samaadhi, and > this one doesn't, we can infer that DN 22 is late rather than early. > > Derek. 7044 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Teachings Then / Now Herman As usual, Herman, a challenging question. --- Herman wrote: > [Jon:] > > I can't really see where this is leading, but you are welcome to > > relate it to the teachings if possible. > > > > Do you believe it is possible and necessary to fit all experience > into the idiom of the teachings? Let me comment on what follows first. > For example: > > I think that not many people today would actively use the periodic > table of the elements as expounded in the Abhidhamma, to describe > physical realities (rupas). This is not ascribing a deficiency to the > Abhidhamma roadmap of rupas, it was sufficient for its time, and way > beyond it in insight. > > But these days the equipment used to investigate physical realities > has a far greater resolution than the sense bases, and consequently > different depths of the same realities are being observed and > described. Hence the periodic table of elements containing things > such as Na , Cl, H , O is in use. And it's use has significant > consequences for humanity today. Anyone who has ever taken medicine > has benefitted from the efforts of those who have sought to > investigate realities beyond what was accepted as final in their time. Different kinds of knowledge lead to different goals. The knowledge that leads to breakthroughs in the sciences, is not the same knowledge that. leads to escape from the kind of existence we have been born. The 'physical realities' that are represented by the scientific terms 'elements' or 'matter' are not the same physical realities that are represented by the term 'rupas'. There is absolutely no common ground between the 2 frames of reference/idioms, as far as I can see. I remember that in an earlier post you said you were interested in pursuing knowledge about reality (I hope I've got that right, Herman). I suppose it depends on how 'reality' is defined, but we need to have a working definition of 'reality' otherwise we may find ourselves pursuing the wrong goal. In explaining what are the realities to be studied and understood, the Buddha was pointing us in a certain direction. Even in his time there would have been an equivalent of 'modern technology', but he explained why that frame of reference would not lead to the goal that he had realised. On the other hand, the realities about which he spoke are exactly the same now as then. There are the same objects appearing through the same sense-doors, to be studied and known as and when they appear. The seeing and visible object appearing now are exactly the same in nature for you and for me and for people through all the ages. > The reality at this moment is that we are all using 21st century > technology to communicate at a very impersonal level with each other. That is 'reality' at a conventional level, of course. It is not 'absolute' in any sense. It could equally be described as a marvel that has made an entirely new form of communication available -- it all depends on the perspective of the speaker. Paramattha dhammas are not like that. They are realities that are the same for everyone. But without the explanation given by the Buddha they would not be apparent us as they really are. > Apparently it is very useful to be more discriminating than to have > just two types of reality, absolute and conventional. I'm not sure I understand this comment, but to answer your opening question, Herman, if the Buddha's teaching is what it claims to be, then it is as appropriate an 'idiom' today as it was in his time. > Regards > > > Herman Jon 7045 From: Anders Honoré Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 11:45pm Subject: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Before I proceed with this question, I just wanna make sure that we're in agreement on the presuppositions the question is based, mainly that the experience of Nibbana remains after Parinibbana (not necessarily in the subject/object way, or any *way* for that matter). Otherwise, how would it be possible to know it it's there? Just to underline this: ----------------------- This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: Monks, there are these two forms of the Nibbana property. Which two? The Nibbana property with fuel remaining, and the Nibbana property with no fuel remaining. And what is the Nibbana property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is a worthy one devoid of mental effluents, who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the bonds of becoming, and is released through right knowing. His five sense faculties still remain, and owing to their being intact, he is cognisant of the pleasant & the unpleasant, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. That which is the passing away of passion, aversion, & delusion in him is termed the Nibbana property with fuel remaining. And what is the Nibbana property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is a worthy one...released through right knowing. All that is sensed by him, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Nibbana property with no fuel remaining. These two Nibbana properties proclaimed by the one with vision the one independent the one who is Such: one property, here in this life with fuel remaining from the ending of craving, the guide to becoming and that with no fuel remaining after this life in which all becoming completely stops. Those who know this state uncompounded their minds released through the ending of craving, the guide to becoming, they, attaining the Teaching's core, delighting in the ending of craving, have abandoned all becoming: they, the Such. Iti 44 -------------------------------------- What I am wondering is how can this possibly be discerned, since the arising of Nibbana (just to speak of 'arising' and 'dependent' in relation to Nibbana seems absurd to my mind) is dependent on the formation of consciousness (which ceases upon Parinibbana)? Basically, what I am reading from the 'experience of Nibbana is dependent on the formation of consciousness' doctrine is annihilation, because with the cessation of consciousness, there would be no way to know about the existence of Nibbana after Parinibbana, and so it would be ridiculous for the Buddha to speak of Nibbana after Parinibbana, since there would be no way to know or experience this with the cessation of consciousness. What this theory seems to propose to me is that cessation of all things, leaving nothingness behind (thus affirming the doctrine of annihilation). Anyone care to clarify this point for me? 7046 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:33am Subject: re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Bruce's question (Ken) ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Epstein Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Bruce's question (Ken) > Now imagine having a teenage girl and saying to her: 'How do you really feel when > you're with this person? Have you ever really paid attention and seen what he's > up to? Do you think he really likes you? How do you think you'll feel if you go > through with this plan? Do you think you're ready? Why don't you try touching, > holding hands, talking, and see how that feels. Are you really together, is there > a mutual acknowledgment? Are you aware of who you are and how you feel when > you're with him? Please pay attention and see what is real when you are with this > person. Don't turn sex into something you *have* to do or *have to* not do. > Where's your freedom here?' And then we have someone like U.G. Krishnamurti, who commented on a situation when J. Krishnamurti asked a young couple "why don't you just hold hands?" U.G.'s response: "Bah, he probably said that because he used to have premature ejaculation himself and can't stand the thoughts of others having it." 7047 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:41am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:31 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > Yup, me too. I'm glad to find that I am not alone in that regard. BTW, could > you provide some sutta reference for that point? >I can't recall the specific Sutta unfortunately, but I do recall >clearly the intent. I guess you'll just have to trust me on this >one :) When you do find the source, be sure to let me know. It would really mean a lot to me. 7048 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:56am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders > He has another pseudonym as well - "Tom Bombadil". I believe 'Tom' is > his true given name. Tom used to be on several Buddhist groups that I and > others here were also on. He is a brilliant "troublemaker" with whom I became > rather much of a cyber-friend despite his tendency to walk (and often cross > over) the thin line between right and wrong speech. Please tell him Howard > says "hello" in case you correspond with him. Nah, from what he has told me, he uses Tom Bombadil simply because Tom Bombadil is his favourite character in the "Lord of the Rings" series. It's a small world though. But then again, DT is some of the closest you can come to a 'Usenet celebrity'. I'm not sure if I would say that me and DT are friends as such, because we've never conversed via email or anything like that, but we certainly have friendly discussions from time to time. 7049 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:57am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 4:32 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders > --- Howard wrote: > > He has another pseudonym as well - "Tom Bombadil". I > believe 'Tom' is > > his true given name. > > I thought his real name was Gary McCullough? You know him too? Haha, what a small world! 7050 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:58am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 5:06 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Anders - > > > > In a message dated 7/26/01 3:58:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Anders: > > > > > > > And to totally destroy the views of the opposition, mighty Anders > strikes a > > > telling blow, by convincing Nagarjuna to join forces with him! > > > Sorry, I just read a post on another newsgroup from a guy named > Dharmatroll, > > > who likes to write stuff like that :-) > > > > > ======================== > > He has another pseudonym as well - "Tom Bombadil". I > believe 'Tom' is > > his true given name. Tom used to be on several Buddhist groups that > I and > > others here were also on. > > Do you include in this talk.religion.buddhism on Usenet? If so, ever > read the writings of Professor Richard Hayes of Montreal's McGill > University (aka Mubul aka Dayamati Dharmachari)? I consider him among > Buddhism's greatest living scholar/practitioners (though he would > never accept such fawning)--the rarest of the rare, a truly precious > treasure, and absolutely one of my greatest gurus. A true Buddhist > Master in ever sense of the word. Yeah, I've talked with Richard P. Hayes from time to time myself too. A great guy. I always enjoyed his posts, although I think he has been offline (at least not frequenting Usenet) for quite some time now. 7051 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:00am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Epstein Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Kom > > --- <> wrote: > > Hi Anders, > > > > --- "Anders Honoré" > > wrote: > > [snip] > > > To tell you the truth, I have yet to find support in the Pali canon > > for the > > > belief that there is no self. > > > > If interested, you might want to refer to > > Ananda Sutta, To Ananda > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > I went and read the excerpt you referred to in the Sutta, and I cannot see it as > refuting the existence of a self, only refuting wrong views of self. According to > Sutta, Buddha is confirming that: > > 1/ there is no permanent, unchanging soul [that does not mean there is no self] > 2/ that consciousness is not annihilated with the death of the body [certainly > doesn't mean that there is no self] > 3/ that all phenomena are not-self [this would mean that a self would have to be > outside of phenomena] > 4/ that it is wrong to assert that there is no self [since it would lead to the > idea that one's previous self no longer existed] > > Based on the above, the only possible self that could be accepted by the Buddha > would be a self that was ouside of conditioned phenomena. The only existent > beyond phenomena is Nirvana, and so the true self would have to be Nirvana and > nothing else. > > This is, I believe, Anders' contention, that the true self is neither a soul nor > an existent phenomena, and that it is not personal, but is Nirvana itself, and > that Nirvana is the true identity of all beings. > > Anders, I may have overspoken. If you're around, please correct. Well, 'identity' is not exactly a word I'd use, but that pretty much sums it up yes. 7052 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:04am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Cameron Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 > Yes. I think there's an approach to Christian theology called > the "via negativa" where they come to understand God by removing > false attributes rather than by adding positive ones. Yup. More specifically, I think it was Dionysius the Areopagite who came up with that (although he also laid out a "via positivia" approach) in his "Mystical Theology". You can read the teaching on this on my website: http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/zen-writings/mystical-theology.htm > I also see parallels between early Buddhism and the "neti, neti" > method of the Upanisads. > > One of my observations from reading the texts is that early Buddhism > was essentialy a practice. But somehow it transitioned (at least in > the literature) into a philosophical endeavor. Yes, I think that's a very sharp observation which I agree with 100%. 7053 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:06am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Gayan Karunaratne Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 > Dear anders, > But whenever buddha used to describe this 'sabbe..' triplet he always said, > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' dukkha > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' aniccha > sabbe 'dhamma' anatta > > sabbe dhamma means all phenomena (conditioned and unconditioned) > sabbe samkhara means all conditioned phenomena. That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out, 'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context. 7054 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:09am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Cameron Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:52 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 --- Anders Honoré wrote: > In the Buddha's second sermon (SN XXII.59) that he held after his > awakening to the Unconditioned, it is even implied that Nibbana is > the self Hi, Anders, >I still think that talking about nibbaana as though it were an object is what linguistic philosophers call a "category error." You can construct sentences that make grammatical sense, but semantically they're meaningless. Definitely. I agree with this very much. I kinda noticed the paradox myself a few days after. I write a long post about self and Nibbana only to conclude that my suggestion for the wisest approach would be to have no position on that matter at all. So what's the point? Duh. >From the way the word is used, it's clear that it's a state, or the event that begins that state. It often comes at the end of one of those lists of near-synonyms: "the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbaana." (That one's from MN 26.) As I read, since it is the end of such things, it would seem closer to a 'non-state' (although this might imply nihilism). 7055 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:05am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! ----- Original Message ----- From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > The Dhamma will not be obscured, but people will do a fine job obscuring it. Nice one, although I did sense some contempt in your post as a whole. Or was that just me? As Nietszche said: "He who hunts monsters should see to that in the process, he does not become a monster himself." Be careful, that when speaking of other people obscuring the Dhamma, that you do not obscure the Dhamma yourself." Regards Anders 7056 From: Anders Honoré Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 11:22pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! > Difficult to grasp, I know. I dont' pretend to understand, but simply > quote this as the accepted orthodox teaching on this point. It's funny don't you think? I'm not pointing any fingers or anything, but try and imagine this sequence in an elementary school: Pupil: "I don't really understand this text." Teacher: "Doesn't matter. Now I'd like you to reformulate, expand comment and clarify the text. And when you're done with that, I want you to translate it into another language and make sure it's comprehensible there as well." I guess there aren't enough people around truly qualified to "reformulate, expand, comment and clarify." 7057 From: Anders Honoré Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 11:06pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity > > When you stare at them long enough, your fingers are actually quite > > visually > > interesting. :-) > > Yes, I think I know what you mean. Here's a question for you, Anders. > What in your view/experience is happening at such moments, when the > fingers become 'visually interesting'. Is this because of what is > happening in the eye-door process, or in the mind-door process, (assuming > it's not changes in the finger!)? Is it kusala of some kind > (understanding, perhaps) or is it akusala? Hmmm, good question. I don't think it's related much to understanding really. I think it's a combination of eye and mind response. Generally, when your eyes loose focus or remain in focus on one object for an extended period of time, they tend to relax (at least for me) and I think this may result in visual sensations that are not normally experienced (since the eyes rarely relax in that way) and thus the mind responds to this *new* change, usually with fascination (the again, I can only speak for myself). I'd say that from a Samatha perspective, it's kusala (not much, but a little), but from the perspective of Vipassana, it's akusula. > > Yup. It's always 'I' am thinking, but that 'I' is another mental > > construct. > > A clever one at that, but if the path were easy... > > But not only that. We also take the seen and the heard for being 'self', > in the sense that it has existence in a manner similar to ourself. In > whatever terms we perceive ourself, we are likely to 'project' to other > 'objects'. Yes, that's true. It's often not just *I am feeling* but *I am that feeling*. 7058 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:10am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:42 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! > I personally don't understand some of the members' position that > something that is cognizable by conditioned realities must necessarily be > conditioned itself. Maybe you would explain this to me? For me, it's simple causation. This arises because of that, and without this, that won't arise. Basically, what this theory tells me is that Nibbana 'is' dependent' on something, which of course is absurd (but perhaps it's my own lack of discernment that causes this conclusion). Or to speak in other words: Conditioned causes leads to conditioned effects, and not unconditioned effects. Otherwise, it would follow that Nibbana interacts (responds - starting a cause and effect) with Samsara, which is quite impossible since Nibbana is unconditioned. 7059 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:02am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Epstein Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! > It would need an unconditioned, transcendent consciousness to grasp an object or > state with a totally transcendent characteristic. If that consciousness is indeed > transcendent and unconditioned, it seems to me that this is a redundant statement > of the definition of Nibbana itself. Therefore the proposition is reduced to > Nibbana experiencing Nibbana. But this separates Nibbana into subject and object, > whereas there is no subject-object separation in Nibbana, and Nibbana is one not > two. > > If anyone can respond to this, I will be happy to remove the clouds from my mind. Tricky one. Anyway, assuming that Nibbana is self (and I do for the sake of relevance in this case), the Buddha refuted that view by saying: "This wrong view arises inappropriately.... It is exactly because of self that I perceive self." Perhaps it all has to do with the presupposition that if Nibbana is released consciousness, then there must automatically an object of it. In Mahayana, Nibbana is defined as "non-dwelling, unconditioned released consciousness." If it's not dwelling, how can there be an object (even Nibbana) to dwell on? This is something that defies normal comprehension, but my guess would be that there is no experiencing Nibbana: Nibbana just *is*. Just joy, permanence and all those other attributes that I can never remember correctly. No one experiencing that, because the "Nibbana-consciousness in itself *is* that joy and permanence etc. 7060 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:28am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: Emptiness is a mode of perception ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 4:40 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: Emptiness is a mode of perception > And of course those stories and world-views (pannati) are > NOT "realities," are NOT seeing things as they are, but mere > conceptual fabrication, papanca. See Bikkhu Bodhi's essay on this: > This representation of the so-called "non-dualism" of the emptiness > teachings is a very serious distortion of actual Mahayana teachings > on both emptiness and its so-called "non-dualism." > > It is apparent Bikkhu Bodhi has never studied under a qualified > teacher of so-called "Mahayana" Buddhism nor Buddhist tantra (as if > there were actually more than a single yana to begin with), or if he > has, never comprehended it as intended, beacuse there could NEVER be > cause for falling into the very serious error of denigrating the > actual Ariyan Dharma as he has done here, which all extant lineages I > am familiar with, Tibetan and Zen, most DEFINITELY are. To speak in > such a way about what is the Ariyan Dharma is to disgrace the Three > Jewels. I have read Bikkhu Bodhi's essay on nonduality before and I thought it was poorly made too. I think Nargajuna's list of negations pretty much puts it clear the Mahayana perspective on Oneness and all that: Not Many (Manyness) Not Two (duality) Not One (Oneness) This pretty much accords with Buddha's answers in the Cosmologist Sutta. As for the thing about nonduality, I'll just quote the Vimalakirti Nirdesha Sutra when it goes on to list various kinds of dualities that people erroneously fall into: "It is dualistic to speak of duality and non-duality." 7061 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:51am Subject: looking for good Pali translation I am thinking about buying the complete translations of the Samyutta Nikaya (because of its diversity of subjects) and the Digha Nikaya (because of its detail). Anyone here who can recommend a good (complete) translation, as well as where I can buy it? I'm looking for a translation that is *not* adapted for ease of readability and generally tries to stay as true to the original texts as possible. Derek, you seem pretty well-versed in all of that. Perhaps you can help (or anyone else for that matter)? Or would it be better for me to ask this question on that Pali Group that I have seen mentioned by some people here? Also, anyone who has some alternative suggestions besides the Digha and Samyutta Nikayas (I'll only be buying two Nikayas this time around), coupled with some good reasons as to why I should buy anything else? Regards Anders PS: I am sorry that I have been so late to reply to some of the posts directed at me, but I have been offline on vacation in Holland the past week, and have only returned online today. 7062 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:55am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Anders, I don't believe you have answered this question (I think Robert E has) fully, or what you said doesn't help me with what you are trying to explain. --- "Anders Honoré" > > I personally don't understand some of the members' position that > > something that is cognizable by conditioned realities must necessarily be > > conditioned itself. Maybe you would explain this to me? > > For me, it's simple causation. This arises because of that, and without > this, that won't arise. Basically, what this theory tells me is that Nibbana > 'is' dependent' on something, which of course is absurd (but perhaps it's my > own lack of discernment that causes this conclusion). If you look back at that post, there is nothing that suggested that nibbana is conditioned. I don't think it anyway suggested that nibbana rises or falls, and that its inherent characteristics are dependent on conditioned realities. > > Or to speak in other words: Conditioned causes leads to conditioned effects, > and not unconditioned effects. There are no conditioned cause that lead to unconditioned effects. Hence, this is true in all cases. > Otherwise, it would follow that Nibbana > interacts (responds - starting a cause and effect) with Samsara, which is > quite impossible since Nibbana is unconditioned. You are just repeating that nibbana cannot be cognized by conditioned realities, but have not explained (to me) why that is. kom 7063 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 2:28am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" > What I am wondering is how can this possibly be discerned, since the > arising > of Nibbana (just to speak of 'arising' and 'dependent' in relation to > Nibbana seems absurd to my mind) is dependent on the formation of > consciousness (which ceases upon Parinibbana)? I read your question to be: if nibbana is cognized by conditioned realities, and since there are no more conditioned realities (the 5 kandhas) associated with the person after pari-nibbana, how can the person prove that nibbana existed after all the 5 kandhas (associated with the person) have no more conditions to rise? My speculation is that since nibanna is unconditioned realities, its characteristics are sufficiently different from the conditioned realities that it is obvious that it doesn't rise and it doesn't fall. So even when = the ariyan is not experiencing nibbana (and I hope you agree that they are not experiencing nibbana all the time when they are still alive!), they= know with direct knowledge (of having experienced nibbana) that its characteristic continue, without rising or falling, even if there are no condition at the time for them to experience it. > Basically, what I am reading from the 'experience of Nibbana is dependent on > the formation of consciousness' doctrine is annihilation, because with the > cessation of consciousness, I think we (you, Roberts, and I) have discussed the Sutta related to annihilation on-and-off. Since you didn't add other points to the topics (= I only remember that you said you disagreed, but didn't give explict reasons), our discussion here may not any more points to this topics. The sutta that you raised on this topics the last time concerns V. Sariputta's answers to the question what happend to the Tathagatha after his death. I think Roberts had explained sufficiently why the answer cannot be that there is no longer Tathagatha after his death. This is because there is never Tathagatha at the first place since the Buddha was a stream of conditioned realities that arise consequentially and continuously as long as there are conditions for the realities to arise. At the points of his death, there are no more conditions for the stream of conditioned realities to continue. > there would be no way to know about the > existence of Nibbana after Parinibbana, and so it would be ridiculous for > the Buddha to speak of Nibbana after Parinibbana, since there would be no > way to know or experience this with the cessation of consciousness. You can know by inference. > What > this theory seems to propose to me is that cessation of all things, leaving > nothingness behind (thus affirming the doctrine of annihilation). Anyone > care to clarify this point for me? I think you may want to clarify what your understanding of "annihilation" is. In SN, it is phrased as "is the one doing the deed different from the = one receiving the results?" The annihilationist view, as I understand the = scriptures to refer to, is that the consciousness rising a moment ago has nothing to do with the consciousness arising now---and hence, the doer of the deed is different from the receiver of the results. There is also view (I know some people today) who believe that their existence will cease at death---they don't know that the continuity of the 5-khandhas are assured as long as there are conditions for them to continue rising. I don't think the idea that when a condition for things to arise ceases to = exist, then its result cannot be is annihilationism in the view of the scriptures. This idea of eliminating the cause so that the effects cannot arise are repeated over and over in the explanation of dependent origination. kom 7064 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:57am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:28 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" > What I am wondering is how can this possibly be discerned, since the > arising > of Nibbana (just to speak of 'arising' and 'dependent' in relation to > Nibbana seems absurd to my mind) is dependent on the formation of > consciousness (which ceases upon Parinibbana)? >I read your question to be: if nibbana is cognized by conditioned >realities, and since there are no more conditioned realities (the 5 >kandhas) associated with the person after pari-nibbana, how can the >person prove that nibbana existed after all the 5 kandhas (associated >with the person) have no more conditions to rise? Yup. >My speculation is that since nibanna is unconditioned realities, its >characteristics are sufficiently different from the conditioned realities >that it is obvious that it doesn't rise and it doesn't fall. So even when = >the ariyan is not experiencing nibbana (and I hope you agree that they >are not experiencing nibbana all the time when they are still alive!), they= > know with direct knowledge (of having experienced nibbana) that its >characteristic continue, without rising or falling, even if there are no >condition at the time for them to experience it. Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. >> Basically, what I am reading from the 'experience of Nibbana is >>dependent on >> the formation of consciousness' doctrine is annihilation, because with >>the >> cessation of consciousness, >I think we (you, Roberts, and I) have discussed the Sutta related to annihilation on-and-off. Since you didn't add other points to the topics (= I only remember that you said you disagreed, but didn't give explict reasons), our discussion here may not any more points to this topics. Don't think so either.... >The sutta that you raised on this topics the last time concerns V. Sariputta's answers to the question what happend to the Tathagatha after his death. I think Roberts had explained sufficiently why the answer cannot be that there is no longer Tathagatha after his death. Yup. I disagreed, but I don't think either view can be properly refuted, so I decided to leave it at that. >This is because there is never Tathagatha at the first place since the Buddha was a stream of conditioned realities that arise consequentially and continuously as long as there are conditions for the realities to arise. At the points of his death, there are no more conditions for the stream of conditioned realities to continue. Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could find the source if you want to)? >I think you may want to clarify what your understanding of "annihilation" is. Plain simply: As I see it, a non-annihilationist Buddhadhamma, is one where an "escape" from impermanent Samsara to permanent Nibbana is possible. A path where the actually is a real meaning to the practise other than to practise for the eventual non-existence of the kandhas. But that doesn't seem to be the case according to you. Hence, I see it as leaning towards nihilism/annihilation. 7065 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:58am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:55 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Anders, >I don't believe you have answered this question (I think Robert E has) fully, or what you said doesn't help me with what you are trying to explain. Well, if Robert has (who, I'll grant, as much more adept at explaining such things clearly than I), should I too? 7066 From: Brian Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:21am Subject: Hello Hello, Having just subscribed to dhammastudygroup, I thought I should introduce myself. My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old American man, married to one of the world's most wonderful women. We're childless by choice and we have a cat named Sammy. My daily practice is focused on mindfulness of breathing as described in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). In addition to this group, I also subscribe to the dhamma-list. It's likely that I'll be silently following the discussions in this group, but I wanted to surface at least once to say hello and wish everyone well. Metta, Brian 7067 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 dear anders, > That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out, > 'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm > still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context. > yes its so generic that nothing is more generic in pali. according to tipitaka, nibbana is a paramattha dhamma. rgds gayan 7068 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello dear brian, welcome and wish you well for your dhamma journey . regards gayan ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 6:21 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello > Hello, > > Having just subscribed to dhammastudygroup, I thought I should > introduce myself. > > My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old American man, married to > one of the world's most wonderful women. We're childless by > choice and we have a cat named Sammy. > > My daily practice is focused on mindfulness of breathing as > described in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). In addition to this > group, I also subscribe to the dhamma-list. > > It's likely that I'll be silently following the discussions in this > group, but I wanted to surface at least once to say hello and wish > everyone well. > > Metta, > Brian > > > 7069 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:36am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Gayan Karunaratne Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 > > dear anders, > > > That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out, > > 'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm > > still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context. > > > > yes its so generic that nothing is more generic in pali. > according to tipitaka, nibbana is a paramattha dhamma. But could there be another reason why he changes it to 'dhamma' in the third? 7070 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:37am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:21 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello > Hello, > > Having just subscribed to dhammastudygroup, I thought I should > introduce myself. > > My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old American man, married to > one of the world's most wonderful women. We're childless by > choice and we have a cat named Sammy. > > My daily practice is focused on mindfulness of breathing as > described in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). In addition to this > group, I also subscribe to the dhamma-list. > > It's likely that I'll be silently following the discussions in this > group, but I wanted to surface at least once to say hello and wish > everyone well. Welcome. I haven't been around long myself, but it's certainly an interesting group. I hope you'll enjoy yourself. 7071 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:36am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" > >My speculation is that since nibanna is unconditioned realities, its > >characteristics are sufficiently different from the conditioned realitie= s > >that it is obvious that it doesn't rise and it doesn't fall. So even wh= en > = > >the ariyan is not experiencing nibbana (and I hope you agree that they > >are not experiencing nibbana all the time when they are still alive!), > they= > > know with direct knowledge (of having experienced nibbana) that its > >characteristic continue, without rising or falling, even if there are no= > >condition at the time for them to experience it. > > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. If you remember the dependent origination's last 2 links, i.e, if there is = birth, there is suffering, aging, and death. Without birth, there is no more suffering, aging, and death. If you look at the "birth" link, some people interpret it to be the coming-about of the khandha (at every single moment, not just at the conventional birth and death). Hence, the cessation of birth (no more re-appearance of kandha) by definition eliminates all other sufferings. > >This is because there is never Tathagatha at the first place since the > Buddha was a stream of conditioned realities that arise consequentially > and continuously as long as there are conditions for the realities to > arise. At the points of his death, there are no more conditions for the > stream of conditioned realities to continue. > > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > find the source if you want to)? Of course, the Tathagata is not being in the kandhas. The "tathagata" in that sutta context denotes a being, a self, and there is no way that any disciples would acknoledge that there is Tathagata in the kandha: they would only say in the kandha, there is only the kandha, a conditioned reality that does not last. > >I think you may want to clarify what your understanding of "annihilation" > is. > > Plain simply: As I see it, a non-annihilationist Buddhadhamma, is one where > an "escape" from impermanent Samsara to permanent Nibbana is possible. A > path where the actually is a real meaning to the practise other than to > practise for the eventual non-existence of the kandhas. But that doesn't > seem to be the case according to you. Hence, I see it as leaning towards > nihilism/annihilation. Although I don't agree with your definition of annihilation (and that it agrees with the scripture) and the interpretation of the cessation of suffering, I will leave this view to be supported or refuted by other members... kom 7072 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:37am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:55 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full > Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! > > > Dear Anders, > > >I don't believe you have answered this question (I think Robert E has) > fully, or what you said doesn't help me with what you are trying to > explain. > > Well, if Robert has (who, I'll grant, as much more adept at explaining such > things clearly than I), should I too? If your understanding is different from Robert E's or if you have any meaningful points that can be added to his logics, then I think you should.= kom 7073 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:39am Subject: Re: Hello Dear Brian, Welcome to the list and thanks for introducing yourself. I am happy you made it here. I am located in San Jose, CA. Are you by any chance in the Western part of the US? kom --- Brian wrote: > Hello, > > Having just subscribed to dhammastudygroup, I thought I should > introduce myself. > 7074 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 8:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 dear anders, > > But could there be another reason why he changes it to 'dhamma' in the > third? > hmm,.... can't prolify about any other reason at the moment..... rgds gayan 7075 From: Brian Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 8:18am Subject: Re: Hello --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Brian, > > Welcome to the list and thanks for introducing yourself. I am happy you > made it here. I am located in San Jose, CA. Are you by any chance in > the Western part of the US? > > kom Dear Kom, I reside in upstate New York, out in the country. Unfortunately there are no Buddhist temples in my area, but the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, MA, is only about 3 hours away. I'm going to be attending my second vipassana retreat there starting next Friday. Metta, Brian 7076 From: ppp Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 2:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik's debating skills Hi, Sarah (and Erick): With respect to your list of points which Erick should pay attension to, I think some of these are bit too harsh. I am self very much enjoy his comments/auguments (despite the fact that I cannot respond to these immediately). Each person has a different accumuation (as Khun Sujin says time and again). If we were all very much the same, the world would indeed be a boring boring place. (Please remember how "peculiar" Khun Allen was. And as you know, we all (still) owe him a lot.) Three Cheers to Erick!!! tadao 7077 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 9:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation Anders Very nice to see your interest in the Tipitaka texts. Anumodana. --- Anders Honoré wrote: > I am thinking about buying the complete translations of the Samyutta > Nikaya > (because of its diversity of subjects) and the Digha Nikaya (because of > its > detail). > > Anyone here who can recommend a good (complete) translation, as well as > where I can buy it? I'm looking for a translation that is *not* adapted > for > ease of readability and generally tries to stay as true to the original > texts as possible. Derek, you seem pretty well-versed in all of that. > Perhaps you can help (or anyone else for that matter)? Or would it be > better > for me to ask this question on that Pali Group that I have seen > mentioned by > some people here? > > Also, anyone who has some alternative suggestions besides the Digha and > Samyutta Nikayas (I'll only be buying two Nikayas this time around), > coupled > with some good reasons as to why I should buy anything else? > > Regards > Anders There is a new and very useful translation of the Samyutta Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi published by Wisdom Books under the title 'Connected Discourses of the Buddha'. It comes with extensive translation of passages from the Commentaries, comprehensive indices and glossaries and Bh Bodhi's own thoughts on a number of topics. Whil I find Ven. Bodhi's comments have a slant that I am not fully in agreemnt with, his scholarship of the texts is beyond question as far as I am able to judge. This particular publication is very user-friendly and browsable. It comes in 2 volumes and is well worth the price (almost USD 100, I believe). Available from Amazon.com or the Wisdom online store. From the same publisher and vendor there is also a trasnlation of the Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walsh ('Long Discourses of the Buddha'). While this translation is considerably earlier than the Samyutta's (and so not able to benefit from the much recent scholarship on the texts generally), it is published with the same useful supplemenetray materials. Recommended. As for other Nikaya-s, I would recommend a partial translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, also by Bhikkhu Bodhi (originally translations by Ven Nyanaponika), under the title 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha', published by AltaMera (I think) and available from Amazon.com. Well presented and with extensive notes from the Commentaries. Hope this helps, and happy reading! Jon 7078 From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 9:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! Hi Anders, Namaste! There was no contempt in the post. Actually, I find the contempt coming from those who are challenged in their apathy, complacency, and use of the Dhamma to hide and escape from painful part of the tough world we live in and face. When something becomes overwhelming it is not unusual for people ho claim to be Dhamma practitioners to conveniently chalk it up to "anicca" --- how convenient. I wonder how people who are disenfranchised and "4th World" would accept such a reason? Thank you for the advice. Did I obscure the Dhamma? Metta, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anders Honoré" Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:05 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:09 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > > The Dhamma will not be obscured, but people will do a fine job obscuring > it. > > Nice one, although I did sense some contempt in your post as a whole. Or was > that just me? > > As Nietszche said: "He who hunts monsters should see to that in the process, > he does not become a monster himself." > > Be careful, that when speaking of other people obscuring the Dhamma, that > you do not obscure the Dhamma yourself." > > Regards > Anders 7079 From: ppp Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 2:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation Hi, Anders and Jonothan: About books, as Jonothan infered Wisdom Books must be the biggest distributer of Buddhist books in North America. They used also to be a sole distributer of all the publications of the Pali Text Society. However, about a few months ago, another book seller [pariyatti.com] overtook the distribution of all the PTS books. So it is not bad idea to check their Web site, too. tadao 7080 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Welcome Brian! We are chasing each other in these lists. Hope you enjoy the discussions and don't feel intimidated to participate. I will 'defend' you, don't be afraid. ;-) I am joking Brian, I know you are brave. Love Cybele >From: Brian >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello >Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 22:21:23 -0000 > >Hello, > >Having just subscribed to dhammastudygroup, I thought I should >introduce myself. > >My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old American man, married to >one of the world's most wonderful women. We're childless by >choice and we have a cat named Sammy. > >My daily practice is focused on mindfulness of breathing as >described in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). In addition to this >group, I also subscribe to the dhamma-list. > >It's likely that I'll be silently following the discussions in this >group, but I wanted to surface at least once to say hello and wish >everyone well. > >Metta, >Brian > 7081 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Brian > >I reside in upstate New York, out in the country. Unfortunately >there are no Buddhist temples in my area, but the Insight >Meditation Society in Barre, MA, is only about 3 hours away. I'm >going to be attending my second vipassana retreat there starting >next Friday. > >Metta, >Brian Another 'meditator' in this group!!!! ;-) The heretic club is increasing, wow!!! Again best wishes for your retreat and please don't lose your beginner's mind, you are so fresh Brian that I thought you were a lot younger. That's good, the freshness...take care to don't become a stale practitioner full of certainties and spiritual arrogance. Remember I 'demand' the detailed report. Let's check if they will instruct you as we were discussing in the list, using the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Welcome again. LOve Cybele 7082 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:37am Subject: Neti, Neti it was : No-Self - Anders Part 2 Dear Derek Dear Anders >>> > > I also see parallels between early Buddhism and the "neti, neti" > > method of the Upanisads. > > > > One of my observations from reading the texts is that early Buddhism > > was essentialy a practice. But somehow it transitioned (at least in > > the literature) into a philosophical endeavor. > >Yes, I think that's a very sharp observation which I agree with 100%. > YES I endorse fully, not that my opinion here has any weight but I can't waste a chance to nosy in... And Anders you must explain what is 'neti, neti' here they are Pali addicted not Sanskrit addicted sweetheart. Neti, Neti: Skt., lit. "Not this, not this" These frequently cited words from the Brihadaranyayaka-Upanishad reject the appearances of the entire universe as mere superimpositions upon Brahman and stabilish that Brahman alone exists and nothing else. This application of the knowledge that the ultimate reality is 'not this, not this' to all manifestations represents in Advaita-Vedanta a process of negative discrimination that constitutes the intellectual path of the 'jnani' Love Cybele 7083 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:45am Subject: Nibbana talk it was Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 Dear Anders Dear Derek >Hi, Anders, > > >I still think that talking about nibbaana as though it were an object >is what linguistic philosophers call a "category error." You can >construct sentences that make grammatical sense, but semantically >they're meaningless. > >Definitely. I agree with this very much. I kinda noticed the paradox myself >a few days after. I write a long post about self and Nibbana only to >conclude that my suggestion for the wisest approach would be to have no >position on that matter at all. So what's the point? Duh. > WONDERFUL!!!!! So happy that after so much mumbo-jumbo both of you have agreed that discussing Nibbana is pointless. I always thought so. But if you conclude is a waste of time and energy PLEASE WHY DON'T YOU JUST STOP, I BEG YOU!!! :-))))) Be merciful, can't stand anymore this Nibbana talk and after people says I am obssessed with meditation. Two bright intelligent guys squandering their talents in this nihilist subject. Please give me a break, be compassionate.. ;-) By the way Derek, in the sharings about meditation I would most appreciate if you could forward some of your posts in d-l. Would you? Love Cybele 7084 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:50am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! hi Anders You and Nietszche are 'haunting me'. And if you 'don't take care', your preaching tone with Bhante will bear kammic results very soon. I can already smell the vipaka fruits in the air. :-)))) Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? Just to know, I am curious Anders... ;-) Love Cybele > > The Dhamma will not be obscured, but people will do a fine job obscuring >it. > >Nice one, although I did sense some contempt in your post as a whole. Or >was >that just me? > >As Nietszche said: "He who hunts monsters should see to that in the >process, >he does not become a monster himself." > >Be careful, that when speaking of other people obscuring the Dhamma, that >you do not obscure the Dhamma yourself." > >Regards >Anders > 7085 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:57am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 Dear Gayan > > Dear anders, > > But whenever buddha used to describe this 'sabbe..' triplet he always >said, > > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' dukkha > > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' aniccha > > sabbe 'dhamma' anatta > > > > sabbe dhamma means all phenomena (conditioned and unconditioned) > > sabbe samkhara means all conditioned phenomena. This is not fair, you are kammically advantadged with Pali being Sri Lankan; your language already has many pali related/derivated terms and you live in a Buddhist country. Let's do an exchange for a while? You come to cloudy LOndon and I move in to Serendipy Island. ;-) BTW have you already booked the place for our meeting; I am dying to send a daily report to the list. Love Cybele > >That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out, >'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm >still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context. > 7086 From: ppp Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Hi, Sarah: (i) Yes, Dhamma must be one of the best medicines for our health. (ii) Yes, I know, in reality there is no "Canada" no "Thailand", but just nama or rupa. (iii) But, as Erick and Mike mentioned, living in a Buddhist country, such as Thailand, is one of the 'mangalaani uttamaani' (highest happinesses) tadao 7087 From: Erik Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:08pm Subject: Re: Lumbini In Danger! --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > hi Anders > > You and Nietszche are 'haunting me'. > And if you 'don't take care', your preaching tone with Bhante will bear > kammic results very soon. I can already smell the vipaka fruits in the air. > :-)))) > Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? I assume Anders did! And I can see that very kusala vipaka coming Anders' way even now! 7088 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: thailand/west Dear Tadao >Hi, Sarah: >(i) Yes, Dhamma must be one of the best medicines for our health. >(ii) Yes, I know, in reality there is no "Canada" no "Thailand", > but just nama or rupa. >(iii) But, as Erick and Mike mentioned, living in a Buddhist > country, such as Thailand, is one of the 'mangalaani uttamaani' > (highest happinesses) tadao You were born in a buddhist country though non theravada and you lived in a buddhist country such as Thailand. Why then if you believe is the 'highest happiness you persist in living in Canada? Legitimate question after your remarks... Metta Cybele 7089 From: Jon & Sarah Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:13pm Subject: Re: Lumbini In Danger! Anders (and others) I know you've been away from the list, so you may not have seen our earlier post declaring this thread off-topic. Please do not post any further replies on this thread. Thanks for your cooperation. (Any comments or queries, off-list, please) Jon & Sarah --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:09 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > > The Dhamma will not be obscured, but people will do a fine job obscuring > it. > > Nice one, although I did sense some contempt in your post as a whole. Or was > that just me? > > As Nietszche said: "He who hunts monsters should see to that in the process, > he does not become a monster himself." > > Be careful, that when speaking of other people obscuring the Dhamma, that > you do not obscure the Dhamma yourself." > > Regards > Anders 7090 From: Erik Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:17pm Subject: Re: No-Self - Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:31 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders > > > --- "Anders Honoré" > wrote: > > Yup, me too. I'm glad to find that I am not alone in that regard. > BTW, could > > you provide some sutta reference for that point? > > >I can't recall the specific Sutta unfortunately, but I do recall > >clearly the intent. I guess you'll just have to trust me on this > >one :) > > When you do find the source, be sure to let me know. It would really mean a > lot to me. Okay, I WILL try, but it was a while ago I caught this. I'll make a strong mental note of this, because it is not a trivial issue [namely, my reply was that the Buddha did NOT dogmatically or categorically say that "NO OTHER PATHS CAN EVER LEAD TO CESSATION OF DUKKHA," and my reply had been recalling someplace in a Sutta where the Buddha had only stated that he was uncertain about other teachers or methods, but aagin, never went so far as to totally and categorically or dogmatically reject all other methods as definitely wrong]. 7091 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! Hi Erik >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > > hi Anders > > > > You and Nietszche are 'haunting me'. > > And if you 'don't take care', your preaching tone with Bhante will >bear > > kammic results very soon. I can already smell the vipaka fruits in >the air. > > :-)))) > > Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? > >I assume Anders did! And I can see that very kusala vipaka coming >Anders' way even now! > Naughty, naughty scandinavians!!!! All of you in the heretic club; by the way we count on organizing a meeting very soon. ;-) Nice to hear from you , drop a line when you manage.# LOve Cybele 7092 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik's debating skills Dear Tadao, I think you may have misunderstood for which I apologise - --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Erick): > With respect to your list of points which Erick should > pay attension to, I think some of these are bit too harsh. These weren't points for Erik to pay attention to at all - it was meant as a (humourous) list of what I'm learning from his debating style...certainly not meant as criticism of Erik or his style in the slightest..... > I am self very much enjoy his comments/auguments (despite the > fact that I cannot respond to these immediately). Erik knows how much I do too. Each person > has a different accumuation (as Khun Sujin says time and again). > If we were all very much the same, the world would indeed be a > boring boring place. I think I've made this point on several occasions too. Again, my apologies if (unknowingly) I caused offence to you or anyone else. Erik, thanks for the added comments and 'instruction' too - sorry, no chance to reply in full. Best, Sarah 7093 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Dear Brian, Another welcome here and thanks so much for introducing yourself without more ado.....(a good example to any other lurkers out there!!) --- Brian wrote: > Hello, > > Having just subscribed to dhammastudygroup, I thought I should > introduce myself. > > My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old American man, married to > one of the world's most wonderful women. We're childless by > choice and we have a cat named Sammy. > > My daily practice is focused on mindfulness of breathing as > described in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). In addition to this > group, I also subscribe to the dhamma-list. > > It's likely that I'll be silently following the discussions in this > group, but I wanted to surface at least once to say hello and wish > everyone well. I see you're based in NY state - like Howard and Sotajanna (in lurk mode) and the famous or infamous Erik (now in Bangkok)...others I'm sure too. As Cybele so nicely encourages newcomers from d-l, pls chip in anytime - hopefully we don't bite! Best wishes, Sarah 7094 From: Herman Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:37pm Subject: The only way? Hi all, Recently there has been good discussion about the methods/paths to nibbana. One of the, so far unanswered, questions was whether there was a path presribed that was THE ONLY WAY. In my general browsing I chanced upon the following. Sorry for quoting the whole section, but it shows how in a particular instance multiple views were allowed without admonition or correction. Kalama Sutta: (The Four Solaces) 17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate- free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now. "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him. "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found." "So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found. "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him. "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate- free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found. With Metta Herman 7095 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:32pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello > Dear Brian, > > Another welcome here and thanks so much for introducing yourself without more > ado.....(a good example to any other lurkers out there!!) Was that a pun, Sarah? :o) 7096 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:39pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma There, changed the name of the thread, because I think it has developed into an on-topic now. ----- Original Message ----- From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:53 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > Hi Anders, Namaste! > > There was no contempt in the post. Actually, I find the contempt coming from > those who are challenged in their apathy, complacency, and use of the Dhamma > to hide and escape from painful part of the tough world we live in and face. > > When something becomes overwhelming it is not unusual for people ho claim to > be Dhamma practitioners to conveniently chalk it up to "anicca" --- how > convenient. I wonder how people who are disenfranchised and "4th World" > would accept such a reason? In that case I apologise for my lack of discernment. The written word cannot always convey feelings as accurately as might be wanted. > Thank you for the advice. Did I obscure the Dhamma? Certainly not, then! 7097 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:41pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana talk it was Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:45 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana talk it was Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 > > Dear Anders > Dear Derek > > >Hi, Anders, > > > > >I still think that talking about nibbaana as though it were an object > >is what linguistic philosophers call a "category error." You can > >construct sentences that make grammatical sense, but semantically > >they're meaningless. > > > >Definitely. I agree with this very much. I kinda noticed the paradox myself > >a few days after. I write a long post about self and Nibbana only to > >conclude that my suggestion for the wisest approach would be to have no > >position on that matter at all. So what's the point? Duh. > > > > WONDERFUL!!!!! So happy that after so much mumbo-jumbo both of you have > agreed that discussing Nibbana is pointless. > I always thought so. > But if you conclude is a waste of time and energy PLEASE WHY DON'T YOU JUST > STOP, I BEG YOU!!! :-))))) > Be merciful, can't stand anymore this Nibbana talk and after people says I > am obssessed with meditation. > Two bright intelligent guys squandering their talents in this nihilist > subject. > Please give me a break, be compassionate.. ;-) > By the way Derek, in the sharings about meditation I would most appreciate > if you could forward some of your posts in d-l. Would you? And just because you said that, I'm gonna continue with it, Cybele! Actually, the reason I started that other thread about Nibbana and annihilation is not to dig deeper into "the true nature of Nibbana" or anything like that, but rather, people's motivation for the path. What are they ultimately practising for? That's all. 7098 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma Changed the name of the thread, to make it on-topic. ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:50 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > > hi Anders > > You and Nietszche are 'haunting me'. We certainly are! Honestly, you must be able to see the wisdom in those words, Cybele. Don't you? > And if you 'don't take care', your preaching tone with Bhante will bear > kammic results very soon. I can already smell the vipaka fruits in the air. > :-)))) Hey, I'm just pointing! There was nothing wrong with the principle I laid out, so I can allow myself to be 'preaching' there, as you say. I was wrong about his underlying intent of the letter, and I certainly hope there was no preaching tone there from me. > Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? > Just to know, I am curious Anders... ;-) Yup. Actually, something dawned on me a few weeks ago. As many others, I used to perceive monks as being much more advanced than lay people because they devote their lives to the Dhamma and all. But then it occurred to me that monks aren't necessarily more advanced than lay people - They're just more desperate (or willing - insert any loaded word here. My intention was not to load the word, but I can't find one) to end suffering! Still, I intend to become a monk myself someday (have to finish school first and all). 7099 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:49pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:08 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > --- "cybele chiodi" > wrote: > > Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? > > I assume Anders did! And I can see that very kusala vipaka coming > Anders' way even now! Haha! 7100 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:50pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:17 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > >I can't recall the specific Sutta unfortunately, but I do recall > >clearly the intent. I guess you'll just have to trust me on this > >one :) > > When you do find the source, be sure to let me know. It would really mean a > lot to me. >Okay, I WILL try, but it was a while ago I caught this. I'll make a strong mental note of this, because it is not a trivial issue >[namely, my reply was that the Buddha did NOT dogmatically or categorically say that "NO OTHER PATHS CAN EVER LEAD TO CESSATION OF DUKKHA," and my reply had been recalling someplace in a Sutta where the Buddha had only stated that he was uncertain about other teachers or methods, but aagin, never went so far as to totally and categorically or dogmatically reject all other methods as definitely wrong]. Thanks 7101 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:52pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:31 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Lumbini In Danger! > > > Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? > > > >I assume Anders did! And I can see that very kusala vipaka coming > >Anders' way even now! > > Naughty, naughty scandinavians!!!! Haha, it's all part of the Grand Conspiracy, you know.... One day we are gonna rule the earth! And it all starts by conspiring against the latins in small groups on the internet! > All of you in the heretic club; by the way we count on organizing a meeting > very soon. ;-) > Nice to hear from you , drop a line when you manage.# I need to join that club sometime... 7102 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:54pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Neti, Neti it was : No-Self - Anders Part 2 ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:37 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Neti, Neti it was : No-Self - Anders Part 2 > > > One of my observations from reading the texts is that early Buddhism > > > was essentialy a practice. But somehow it transitioned (at least in > > > the literature) into a philosophical endeavor. > > > >Yes, I think that's a very sharp observation which I agree with 100%. > > YES I endorse fully, not that my opinion here has any weight but I can't > waste a chance to nosy in... > > And Anders you must explain what is 'neti, neti' here they are Pali addicted > not Sanskrit addicted sweetheart. > > Neti, Neti: Skt., lit. "Not this, not this" > These frequently cited words from the Brihadaranyayaka-Upanishad reject the > appearances of the entire universe as mere superimpositions upon Brahman and > stabilish that Brahman alone exists and nothing else. > This application of the knowledge that the ultimate reality is 'not this, > not this' to all manifestations represents in Advaita-Vedanta a process of > negative discrimination that constitutes the intellectual path of the > 'jnani' Shouldn't I hand over this job to Nagarjuna? If anyone ever explained what's Neti Neti, he would have to be the one. 7103 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 6:52pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation ----- Original Message ----- From: ppp Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:44 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation > Hi, Anders and Jonothan: > About books, as Jonothan infered Wisdom Books must be > the biggest distributer of Buddhist books in North > America. They used also to be a sole distributer of all > the publications of the Pali Text Society. However, > about a few months ago, another book seller [pariyatti.com] > overtook the distribution of all the PTS books. So it is not > bad idea to check their Web site, too. tadao Thanks 7104 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:01pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation > Anders > > Very nice to see your interest in the Tipitaka texts. Anumodana. I've always had a great interest in the scriptures and I do find them beneficial to practise. I just got a VISA card the other day, so now I can actually start buying books via the internet. I figure I'll buy those two Nikayas and some stuff buy Nagarjuna as well. > There is a new and very useful translation of the Samyutta Nikaya by > Bhikkhu Bodhi published by Wisdom Books under the title 'Connected > Discourses of the Buddha'. It comes with extensive translation of > passages from the Commentaries, comprehensive indices and glossaries and > Bh Bodhi's own thoughts on a number of topics. Whil I find Ven. Bodhi's > comments have a slant that I am not fully in agreemnt with, his > scholarship of the texts is beyond question as far as I am able to judge. Well, personally I have my reservations about Bikkhu Bodhi's views and I don't think I would buy a book just for that, but his contributions to the western understanding of Theravada is immense, and for that he deserves much praise. But if his translations are good, then I'll certainly consider it. > This particular publication is very user-friendly and browsable. It comes > in 2 volumes and is well worth the price (almost USD 100, I believe). > Available from Amazon.com or the Wisdom online store. Phew. I think it is worth the price anyway too though. > From the same publisher and vendor there is also a trasnlation of the > Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walsh ('Long Discourses of the Buddha'). While > this translation is considerably earlier than the Samyutta's (and so not > able to benefit from the much recent scholarship on the texts generally), > it is published with the same useful supplemenetray materials. > Recommended. Sounds good. > As for other Nikaya-s, I would recommend a partial translation of the > Anguttara Nikaya, also by Bhikkhu Bodhi (originally translations by Ven > Nyanaponika), under the title 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha', > published by AltaMera (I think) and available from Amazon.com. Well > presented and with extensive notes from the Commentaries. > > Hope this helps, and happy reading! It does very much. Thank you! 7105 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:02pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! > Well, if Robert has (who, I'll grant, as much more adept at explaining such > things clearly than I), should I too? >If your understanding is different from Robert E's or if you have any meaningful points that can be added to his logics, then I think you should.= I think me and Robert are pretty much in agreement. And any points I might have to add would surely only confuse the matter even more! 7106 From: Anders Honoré Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:26pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:36 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- "Anders Honoré" > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. >If you remember the dependent origination's last 2 links, i.e, if there is = >birth, there is suffering, aging, and death. Without birth, there is no more suffering, aging, and death. If you look at the "birth" link, some people interpret it to be the coming-about of the khandha (at every single moment, not just at the conventional birth and death). Hence, the cessation of birth (no more re-appearance of kandha) by definition eliminates all other sufferings. Yeah, but you didn't answer my question? What's the point? Why are you practising? To end suffering through nothingness after Parinibbana? Personally, I'm practising for the eternal bliss and joy of Nibbana after Parinibbana, and that is what I'm trying to show that, as I read the Pali Canon, the Buddha pointed to the same thing. > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > find the source if you want to)? >Of course, the Tathagata is not being in the kandhas. The "tathagata" in that sutta context denotes a being, a self, and there is no way that any disciples would acknoledge that there is Tathagata in the kandha: they would only say in the kandha, there is only the kandha, a conditioned reality that does not last. The sutta also says "do you construe the Tathagata as being elsewhere than the five kandhas?" to which he truthfully answers no. It concludes: Sariputta: And so, my friend Yamaka -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Master, a monk with no more mental effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'? Yamaka: Previously, friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Teaching, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and the Teaching has become clear. ---------------- I must admit I still don't see how you are *not* saying that the Tathagata doesn't exist after death. Another one, makes it clear that there *is* an entity labeled Tathagata : "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard-to-fathom, like the sea. "Reappears" doesn't apply. "Does not reappear" doesn't apply. "Both does & does not reappear" doesn't apply. "Neither reappears nor does not reappear" doesn't apply. 'Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental process... 'Any act of consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned....Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard-to-fathom, like the sea.' " M 72 Doesn't say that the Tathagata is merely a construct of the five kandhas, but rather indicates that there is a Tathagata, but that he has transcended the kandhas. Come to think of it, doesn't Robert K's (wouldn't be eaiser to just call him Kirk or something?) explanation about "the Buddha doesn't perish because there never was a Buddha to begin with. Just the kandhas which are not-self," doesn't it contradict that. and doesn't that explanation fall under the fallacious view "the Buddha neither exists nor does not exist adter death"? 7107 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek hi, It is totally wrong to say that satipatthanasuuta in DN22 is without samadhi jhana.We have anapanasati attainment to 4 jhana in this sutta.And also in the last subject of 4 noble truth ,we have 8 noble path completely, Note that com .said kaya and vedana are for samathayanika while the other two for vipassanayanika.Do not simply give comment until we have read enough texts. Teng Kee >From: Jonothan Abbott >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:42:45 +0800 (CST) > >Derek > >Thanks for the interesting and, to me, new perspective on the suttas. I >am not really in a position to comment for the most part since I have >never looked into this aspect. > >However, I have snomething to say on your 4th point-- > > > (4) Absence of concentration meditation as part of the path. The > > Noble Eightfold Path is a core, early teaching -- it occurs almost > > everywhere. But in DN 22 we have sati without samaadhi. Since the > > early teachings and the Buddha's own practice included samaadhi, and > > this one doesn't, we can infer that DN 22 is late rather than early. > >This seems to assume that the Noble Eightfold Path and the >Mahasatipatthana Sutta are talking about the development of the path from >the same point of view. As you may have noticed from another thread going >on at the moment, this is something I would not agree with. The >description of the N8FP makes it clear what factors are present at moments >of path-consciousness, while DN 22 tells us how that path is to be >developed. > >To my understanding, there is no inconsistency between the 2, so I would >not wish to accept any conclusion based on an assumption that there was. > >Jon > > > --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Hi, Jon, > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Why don't you give it a try! > > > > Okay, here goes. > > > > There's various clues you can use to differentiate between earlier > > and later material. Tadao mentioned one a few days ago -- namely, the > > use of archaic word-forms in early material. I won't list all > > possible tools used to stratify the nikaaya-s. Instead I'll just > > refer to those that are relevant to our discussion of the > > Mahasatipa.t.thaana Sutta (DN 22). > > > > (1) Over time, ordinary words become used in specialized, technical > > meanings. Look at the word dhamma. In the early materials, it just > > means teaching. But later on it comes to have the specifically > > Buddhist meaning of mind-object. And in DN 22 we can already see the > > word used in this later sense. The fourth section of DN 22, the > > section on dhammaanupassanaa uses the word dhamma not only for > > teachings, but also for mind-objects such as the five hindrances. So, > > this is an indication of the lateness of the material. > > > > (2) Literary form. The early material consists of simple statements > > and propositions. Later materials take the form of explanations, > > analysis and commentary. Now, look at the presentation of the Four > > Noble Truths toward the end of DN 22. We have the usual statement > > that birth is suffering, old age is suffering, etc. But THEN in DN 22 > > we have analysis of each of these terms -- what is birth? what is old > > age? Each of these terms is commented upon within the sutta itself. > > The use of the commentarial formal is again an indication of relative > > lateness. > > > > (3) Elaboration of simple ideas comes after the simple ideas > > themselves. The early material presents sati (mindfulness) without > > much in the way of elaboration. But here we have a whole discourse on > > what just this one point means. Again, this suggests it is later than > > the simple proposition of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > > > (4) Absence of concentration meditation as part of the path. The > > Noble Eightfold Path is a core, early teaching -- it occurs almost > > everywhere. But in DN 22 we have sati without samaadhi. Since the > > early teachings and the Buddha's own practice included samaadhi, and > > this one doesn't, we can infer that DN 22 is late rather than early. > > > > Derek. > 7108 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2 dear cybele, > This is not fair, you are kammically advantadged with Pali being Sri Lankan; > your language already has many pali related/derivated terms and you live in > a Buddhist country. yeah, have both advantages and disadvantages. for example the pali term 'uddhacca' - the intended pali meaning is the restlessness(non-one-pointedness) of the mind (?hope I am correct) Theres a sinhala version of uddhacca which means 'unnecessarily proud'. And the word dukkha , the pali meaning is an array of characteristics - unsatisfactoriness,frustration,grief,sorrow But the sinhala word duka means (or implies) just 'suffering'. ( as in the case with initial english translations of 'dukkha') > Let's do an exchange for a while? why not, I do like changing places , never settling down, never home sick. > You come to cloudy LOndon and I move in to Serendipy Island. ;-) Like to go to london, have never been to england. But FYI , a terrorist attack just blew up serendib dhamma deepa's international air-port, 5 airbuses. Insurance premiums, air-fares hiking now. But SL ppl are now really war-adjusted, "today a bomb exploded-tomorrow we go for work" thats the tolerance spirit. > BTW have you already booked the place for our meeting; I am dying to send a > daily report to the list. Of course!, I am waiting until I go back to SL after finishing my project here in Boston. Daily report is a bad idea though :o) rgds gayan 7109 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 dear anders and derek, In the mulapariyaya sutta buddha explains how a person prolifies (mannana) about pathavi(earth-matter),.....,jhana,.........nibbana....etc. And it goes on to describe as how enlightened ones 'handle' above cases. a translation can be found at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html rgds gayan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anders Honoré" Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 1:09 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Derek Cameron > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:52 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2 > > > --- Anders Honoré > wrote: > > In the Buddha's second sermon (SN XXII.59) that he held after his > > awakening to the Unconditioned, it is even implied that Nibbana is > > the self > > Hi, Anders, > > >I still think that talking about nibbaana as though it were an object > is what linguistic philosophers call a "category error." You can > construct sentences that make grammatical sense, but semantically > they're meaningless. > > Definitely. I agree with this very much. I kinda noticed the paradox myself > a few days after. I write a long post about self and Nibbana only to > conclude that my suggestion for the wisest approach would be to have no > position on that matter at all. So what's the point? Duh. > > >From the way the word is used, it's clear that it's a state, or the > event that begins that state. It often comes at the end of one of > those lists of near-synonyms: "the stilling of all formations, the > relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, > dispassion, cessation, nibbaana." (That one's from MN 26.) > > As I read, since it is the end of such things, it would seem closer to a > 'non-state' (although this might imply nihilism). > > > 7110 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Neti, Neti it was : No-Self - Anders Part 2 Hi, Cybele (and Anders) - In a message dated 8/3/01 7:54:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cybele chiodi writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cybele chiodi > > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:37 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Neti, Neti it was : No-Self - Anders Part 2 > > > > One of my observations from reading the texts is that early Buddhism > > > > was essentialy a practice. But somehow it transitioned (at least in > > > > the literature) into a philosophical endeavor. > > > > > >Yes, I think that's a very sharp observation which I agree with 100%. > > > > YES I endorse fully, not that my opinion here has any weight but I can't > > waste a chance to nosy in... > > > > And Anders you must explain what is 'neti, neti' here they are Pali > addicted > > not Sanskrit addicted sweetheart. > > > > Neti, Neti: Skt., lit. "Not this, not this" > > These frequently cited words from the Brihadaranyayaka-Upanishad reject > the > > appearances of the entire universe as mere superimpositions upon Brahman > and > > stabilish that Brahman alone exists and nothing else. > > This application of the knowledge that the ultimate reality is 'not this, > > not this' to all manifestations represents in Advaita-Vedanta a process of > > negative discrimination that constitutes the intellectual path of the > > 'jnani' > > Shouldn't I hand over this job to Nagarjuna? If anyone ever explained what's > Neti Neti, he would have to be the one. > > ============================= The "neti, neti", or "neither this nor that" of the upanishads and Shankara's advaita vedanta, describing Brahman, suggests, perhaps, that Brahman and Nibbana, are one and the same. I'd just like to point out that, while there are similarities, there are also essential differences. Brahman = Atman. It is considered to be a Self, with *essence*, indeed having sat (being) as a characteristic. Moreover, as you point out, Cybele, it is considered to be the one and only reality, with all conditioned dharmas being actually nothing at all, mere illusion superimposed (somehow!!) on the reality of Brahman - products of Maya. Nibbana, however, is anatta (not self). Nibbana is not "being", nor is it nothingness. It is middle-way empty, "existing" in mutual dependence with all conditioned dhammas, which also are neither essential existents nor complete nullities, but are middle-way empty. As I understand it, advaita vedanta, despite the term 'advaita' (nondual), is actually a complete monism, because Brahman is considered to be all there really is, all else being mere illusion. But the Buddhadhamma has a more sophisticated perspective. It adopts the middle-way between monism and pluralism, namely the perspective of emptiness/relativity. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7111 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 11:31pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Anders Honoré How are you? If you like the idea of reading translations done by the collective group of intellectuals made up of experts in languages, and experts in Dhamma, there are such translations in Myanmar. Translations are the final results of consultations among different experts made up of both monks and laypeople before writing down a single word. They also come with explanations of words or sticky points as notes right after the paragraphs in which those words occur. Sound good? Where to get them? The Myanmar embassy in your city or nearest to your city could help you out. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > I am thinking about buying the complete translations of the Samyutta Nikaya > (because of its diversity of subjects) and the Digha Nikaya (because of its > detail). > > Anyone here who can recommend a good (complete) translation, as well as > where I can buy it? I'm looking for a translation that is *not* adapted for > ease of readability and generally tries to stay as true to the original > texts as possible. Derek, you seem pretty well-versed in all of that. > Perhaps you can help (or anyone else for that matter)? Or would it be better > for me to ask this question on that Pali Group that I have seen mentioned by > some people here? > > Also, anyone who has some alternative suggestions besides the Digha and > Samyutta Nikayas (I'll only be buying two Nikayas this time around), coupled > with some good reasons as to why I should buy anything else? > > Regards > Anders > > PS: I am sorry that I have been so late to reply to some of the posts > directed at me, but I have been offline on vacation in Holland the past > week, and have only returned online today. 7112 From: Erik Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 11:50pm Subject: Re: Erik's debating skills --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Tadao, > > I think you may have misunderstood for which I apologise - > > --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Erick): > > With respect to your list of points which Erick should > > pay attension to, I think some of these are bit too harsh. > > These weren't points for Erik to pay attention to at all - it was meant as a > (humourous) list of what I'm learning from his debating style...certainly not > meant as criticism of Erik or his style in the slightest..... That was entirely in the spirit they were taken, too Sarah--as I hope you garnered from my reply! I think this misinterpration is a living demonstration of how easy it is (particularly in this medium, where things like vocal inflection abnd gesture are entirely absent) to project our own accumulated tendencies onto the words of others. But this is true in every aspect of life. 7113 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 0:14am Subject: Re: Nietszche and Dhamma Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" > Yup. Actually, something dawned on me a few weeks ago. As many others, I > used to perceive monks as being much more advanced than lay people because > they devote their lives to the Dhamma and all. But then it occurred to me > that monks aren't necessarily more advanced than lay people - They're just > more desperate (or willing - insert any loaded word here. My intention was > not to load the word, but I can't find one) to end suffering! > Still, I intend to become a monk myself someday (have to finish school first > and all). I realize you are kidding, but just in case, here's are words that were oft= en used for the motivation of the monks mentioned in the scripture: "Household life is confinement, a path of dust, going forth is like the ope= n air. It is not easy for one living at home to lead the perfectly complete,= perfectly purified holy life, which is like polished conch." I wouldn't term this even close to desperate, willing, but appreciative of = the purity and the wholesome states. kom 7114 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 0:29am Subject: Re: Hello --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Brian, > > My name is Brian, I'm a 34 year old American man, married to > > one of the world's most wonderful women. We're childless by > > choice and we have a cat named Sammy. Welcome Brian! I love your cat's name! My first cat's name, who my parents got me when I was five years old, I also named "Sam!" :) He was a yellow striped tabby. He was my first pet! I loved him dearly. > > My daily practice is focused on mindfulness of breathing as > > described in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). How nice to have another on this list who has the accumulations for anapanasati, the topic of today's discussion with Khun Sujin! (though I think that intense Tibetan debating style got the better of these khandas today--though the intensity was solely in defense of this amazing practice as a condition leading directly to Satipatthana and terminating the fetters, which was taught specifically by Lord Buddha, in the Anapanasati Sutta. :) Have to grab a quote from it for the benefit of those here who have not been taught this practice the Buddha praised so highly, a practice he said he was totally "content at heart with": "Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full- moon night of the Pavarana ceremony -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, I am content with this practice. I am content at heart with this practice. So arouse even more intense persistence for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet- unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized." [...] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. The seven factors of awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." If there are any practices leading to Right View endorsed more highly than anapanasati by Lord Buddha, I have yet to see them. The entire Sutta is expounded here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html I have heard a few rumors floating around that anapanasati is "too difficult" and so on. I know this isn't true, but some may have doubt about its efficacy as a practice that leading to clear knowing and release, and those in doubt should take careful note of how not only the Buddha practiced it but praised it unequivocally as leading to Satipatthana (Four Frames of Reference) which, as we all here agree are vital, which, as the Buddha said DIRECTLY, when developed and pursued, lead to the culmination of the Seven Factors of Awakening which, when developed and pursued lead to clear knowing and release. In that very cause-and-effect, "this conditions that," order: So again, so very pleased you had the fortuitous opportunity to drop by just now, given the topic of today's dicussion with Khun Sujin: the proponents of anapanasati "vs." the proponents of the "paramattha dhamma/present moment" forrms of strategic pedagogy! :) :) :) 7115 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kamma and vipaka Dear Loke, Sarah explained about vipaka and I can add a few more points. > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: >> >> in between the arising and falling of a resultant kamma, is there >> 1) a moment where no resultant kamma arise (be it bad or good) >> >> ex... say a resultant kamma having a cycle of 10 days, will the next >> resultant kamma follow immediately after the dissipation of the first >> resultant kammic energy ?... or >> >> 2) will there be a reprieve of a few minutes or days or event >> moments... where nothing happens... sort of like waiting for the next >> resultant kamma to happen kind of thing...??? Sarah: > I wonder if by resultant kamma you mean vipaka, the result of kamma? > So, for example, seeing now is vipaka, the result of kamma and so is hearing, > smeeling, tasting, touching and there are many other vipaka cittas (moments of > consciousness). We have no idea when the kamma (the cetana , intention) action > was performed to bring about this result of seeing or hearing now. Some kamma > will have been done in this life and some in previous lives, but it doesn't > help to try and speculate about what and when, I think. > > There are no fixed time spans for when vipaka will arise. When there aren't > moments of vipaka arising, then there are other kinds of citta > (consciousness).There is never a moment (for us) when there is no > consciousness > arising. > >Sarah: I've tried to put this simply, but actually the subject is complex. I think > you > have a few confusions and I highly recommend 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by > Nina > Van Gorkom which is on some of the websites (on Amara's Dhamma Study website I > know) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > > There's also a good paper on Kamma by Khun Sujin on this website. Nina:You could have a look at Abh in Daily Life, Ch 5 and 6. But it is a complex subject and it cannot be clear all at once. As Sarah explained, seeing and hearing now are the results of kamma, and they arise time and again, thus, you do not have to wait for the arising of a result of kamma. Seeing either sees a pleasant object or an unpleasant object depending on the kamma that produces it. However, we may not realize at all whether seeing or hearing is the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma, whether a pleasant object or an unpleasant object is experienced. Seeing and hearing are extremely short moments, they arise and then fall away immediately. There are countless moments of them within a splitsecond. Afterwards we may think about this ugly thing or that beautiful thing we perceived, but that is thinking, accompanied by like or dislike. It is not result of kamma, but thinking occurs at the moment of javanacittas (impulsion) in the process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the six doors. Javanacittas are, in the case of non-arahats, either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Some people believe that the result of kamma is experienced only when they receive a very pleasant object or when they have an accident and suffer pain. But also now while seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the result of kamma is experienced. Knowledge of which kamma produces which vipaka and when it produces vipaka is exclusively the domain of Buddhas, we cannot fathom this. In past lives we committed many kinds of kamma and one of these countless kammas produced our rebirth. We do not know which of the countless kammas, also of past lives, will produce the next rebirth. As Sarah explained, kamma is intention or volition, thus it is mental. Therefore it can be accumulated from moment to moment, from life to life, and produce the appropriate result when it is the right time. Kamma also produces rupas, such as the sense organs and the heartbase, throughout our life. The physical result is not called vipaka, this term designates only the mental result of kamma. Thus, at the moment of birth kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness, and also throughout life kamma produces result in the form of seeing and the other sense impressions. Moreover, the life-continuum, bhavangacitta, arising in between the processes of citta, is produced by kamma. As Robert K. wrote in his post from Bangkok, the difference between the moments of vipakacittas such as seeing or hearing, and thinking about them with attachment or aversion should be discerned. I quote: Nobody can prevent the next moment from arising, there are so many factors that can condition that moment. Who knows what kamma has in store for us, the next moment may be hard to bear. And then, how do we react to it? If patience has been accumulated, there may be conditions to face an unpleasant moment with patience, thus, with kusala citta. Intellectual understanding of the different realities is not the same as mindfulness of what appears now, these are different levels of understanding. Seeing is dukkha, that means, it arises and falls away. What is impermanent is not happiness, sukha. Some people may believe that the Truth of dukkha does not relate to our daily life now, but it occurs right now. Only, right understanding has to be developed so that first the difference between nama and rupa can be realized. When panna is further developed it can realize their arising and falling away and then there will be more understanding of the fact that seeing or hearing now is dukkha, that whatever arises and falls away is dukkha. Each moment of citta arises and falls away and then it conditions the next moment. So also the last moment of life falls away, but it is succeeded by the next moment, the rebirth-consciousness. Best wishes, Nina. 7116 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:35am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > >If you remember the dependent origination's last 2 links, i.e, if there = is > = > >birth, there is suffering, aging, and death. Without birth, there is no= > more suffering, aging, and death. If you look at the "birth" link, some > people interpret it to be the coming-about of the khandha (at every > single moment, not just at the conventional birth and death). Hence, > the cessation of birth (no more re-appearance of kandha) by definition > eliminates all other sufferings. > > Yeah, but you didn't answer my question? What's the point? Why are you > practising? I think the goal of Buddhism is the end of suffering. In our cases, we understand the meaning of the end differently. In your case, you think it = is some part of your consciousness (but no-self) that lives on endlessly and being conscious of definitely nibbana, and perhaps other kandhas (without the "established"/"grasping" consciousness) . In my case, it is the cessation of the conditioned realities, as their conditions have been permanently eradicated. We have already established the differences between our understadings of nibbana and annihilationism. Unless you have any more points, I think we can close off the discussion about annihilation as well. > To end suffering through nothingness after Parinibbana? > Personally, I'm practising for the eternal bliss and joy of Nibbana after= > Parinibbana, and that is what I'm trying to show that, as I read the Pali= > Canon, the Buddha pointed to the same thing. Eternal bliss is definitely not I have in mind when I think of the end of suffering! > > > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to > which > > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > > find the source if you want to)? > > >Of course, the Tathagata is not being in the kandhas. The "tathagata" in > that sutta context denotes a being, a self, and there is no way that any > disciples would acknoledge that there is Tathagata in the kandha: they > would only say in the kandha, there is only the kandha, a conditioned > reality that does not last. > > The sutta also says "do you construe the Tathagata as being elsewhere than > the five kandhas?" to which he truthfully answers no. > > It concludes: > Sariputta: And so, my friend Yamaka -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata > as a truth or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to= > declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Master, a monk with > no more mental effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, > perishes, & does not exist after death'? > Yamaka: Previously, friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil > supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Teaching, I have > abandoned that evil supposition, and the Teaching has become clear. > ---------------- > I must admit I still don't see how you are *not* saying that the Tathagata > doesn't exist after death. > > Another one, makes it clear that there *is* an entity labeled Tathagata : > "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata > would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, > like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not > destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, > the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard-to-fathom, like the sea. "Reappears" > doesn't apply. "Does not reappear" doesn't apply. "Both does & does not > reappear" doesn't apply. "Neither reappears nor does not reappear" doesn't > apply. > 'Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental process... > 'Any act of consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would > describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned....Freed from the > classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, > hard-to-fathom, like the sea.' " > M 72 > > Doesn't say that the Tathagata is merely a construct of the five kandhas, > but rather indicates that there is a Tathagata, but that he has transcended > the kandhas. > > Come to think of it, doesn't Robert K's (wouldn't be eaiser to just call = him > Kirk or something?) explanation about "the Buddha doesn't perish because > there never was a Buddha to begin with. Just the kandhas which are > not-self," doesn't it contradict that. and doesn't that explanation fall > under the fallacious view "the Buddha neither exists nor does not exist > adter death"? You are mixing up suttas which are explained to different set of people. You have to remember that we believe that the Buddha dispensed the dhamma to suit each person's accumulation. For those who believe in eternalism or annihilationism, he denied both extremes. For those who understand (not directly know) the conditioned realities and impermanence, he is more conventional in his usage of the language. I think I can sufficiently explain your view about what annihilationism is = and how it could be used to explain logically what you believe nibbana to be. I think it would be benefiical for both of us if you could explain wha= t my point of view (and perhaps Robert's, if they are similar) what our view of annihilationism is and why it makes sense in the sutta context that you mentioned? After all, we are not here to convince, only to explain why things are so and see why other people think differently... kom 7117 From: Brian Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:07am Subject: Re: Hello Hello again, everyone, Many thanks for the warm welcome. Cybele, thank you for the offer of protection. :-) The level of discourse in this group does seem formidable. Dear rikpa21 (I'm sorry I don't know your name -- how should I address you?) When I first began studying and practicing a few years ago, I was drawn to the Anapanasati Sutta for the very reasons you describe below. A method that was both practiced and praised by the Buddha would seem to be one worth developing and pursuing. You mentioned that some people may think that anapanasati is too difficult. I find this very surprising. Why might some people think this? Metta, Brian --- Erik wrote: > How nice to have another on this list who has the accumulations for > anapanasati, the topic of today's discussion with Khun Sujin! (though > I think that intense Tibetan debating style got the better of these > khandas today--though the intensity was solely in defense of this > amazing practice as a condition leading directly to Satipatthana and > terminating the fetters, which was taught specifically by Lord > Buddha, in the Anapanasati Sutta. :) > > Have to grab a quote from it for the benefit of those here who have > not been taught this practice the Buddha praised so highly, a > practice he said he was totally "content at heart with": > > "Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full- > moon night of the Pavarana ceremony -- the Blessed One was seated in > the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the > silent community of monks, he addressed them: > > "Monks, I am content with this practice. I am content at heart with > this practice. So arouse even more intense persistence for the > attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet- > unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized." > > [...] > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors of awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear > knowing & release to their culmination." > > If there are any practices leading to Right View endorsed more highly > than anapanasati by Lord Buddha, I have yet to see them. > > The entire Sutta is expounded here: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > I have heard a few rumors floating around that anapanasati is "too > difficult" and so on. I know this isn't true, but some may have doubt > about its efficacy as a practice that leading to clear knowing and > release, and those in doubt should take careful note of how not only > the Buddha practiced it but praised it unequivocally as leading to > Satipatthana (Four Frames of Reference) which, as we all here agree > are vital, which, as the Buddha said DIRECTLY, when developed and > pursued, lead to the culmination of the Seven Factors of Awakening > which, when developed and pursued lead to clear knowing and release. > In that very cause-and-effect, "this conditions that," order: > > So again, so very pleased you had the fortuitous opportunity to drop > by just now, given the topic of today's dicussion with Khun Sujin: > the proponents of anapanasati "vs." the proponents of > the "paramattha dhamma/present moment" forrms of strategic > pedagogy! :) :) :) 7118 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:36am Subject: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath (was: Hello) --- Brian wrote: > Dear rikpa21 (I'm sorry I don't know your name -- how should I > address you?) How do mental fabrications like names help us recognize that there is only the arising and passing away of conditioned realities? (sorry, couldn't resist that one! :) > When I first began studying and practicing a few years ago, I was > drawn to the Anapanasati Sutta for the very reasons you describe > below. A method that was both practiced and praised by the > Buddha would seem to be one worth developing and pursuing. It would certainly seem that way, wouldn't it? > You mentioned that some people may think that anapanasati is > too difficult. I find this very surprising. Why might some people > think this? That question has interested me for some time as well! In fact, I would be VERY curious to see any passage from any sutta where the Buddha explicitly told his disciples that anapanasati was "too difficult" a practice. Perhaps someone here with greater knowledge of the suttas than you or I can help us out a little here, because I know there are many here with far more expertise in the suttas than I have (for example, though I know nothing about your degree of expertise in these holy words of the Buddha). And I do not believe that any commentaries will suffice on such an important issue, because as explained in the Anapanasati Sutta, it cuts directly to the chase, as it were. > Metta, > Brian Back atcha, my friend! :) Erik 7119 From: ppp Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Erik's debating skills Hi, Erick: Some psychologits belive that when we converse, over 60% of information is transmitted non-verbally (by such a medium as gesture). When such non-verbal information is not present, it is hard to understand the true intent of the converstion. NOW, ERICK. The above argument applies to all the discoureses documented in the Sutta-Pitake. We cannot see the Buddha's eyes, his hand movements, bodily movements. All the important informational aids have been lost in the words kept in the Sutta-Pitake, indicating it would be a dengerous endevour if we read/interpred the suttas LITERALLY. (Just as easily as I was misled by Sarah's words, you may be misled by the Buddha's words.) tadao 7120 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 5:38am Subject: Some Thoughts on the Role of the Jhanas on the Path Hi, all - I was thinking today about the jhanas. In several places in the suttas, it is the the jhanas, especially the first four (with the remaining four being modifications of the 4th jhana), that are described as Right Concentration. Clearly, since concentration is a condition for the arising of insight, this makes the jhanas important. But another thought occurred to me with regard to the importance of the jhanas which I would like to put forward for your consideration. It is the following: The jhanas, first through eighth, form an ascending chain of increasing relative emptiness. As the mind ascends from jhana to jhana, more and more is let go of. It occurs to me that gaining familiarity with, or mastery of, these states of relative emptiness can serve as a kind of preparation of the mind for the nibbanic experience of ultimate emptiness. Perhaps this is the reason that there were numerous cases in the suttas of people who had mastered the jhanas easily attaining enlightenment, for example by just hearing a sutta spoken by the Buddha, or after just a brief period of practice. Any thoughts? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7121 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 9:42am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma Dear Anders >> > > > Did you realize you were 'preaching' a monk? > > > > > >I assume Anders did! And I can see that very kusala vipaka coming > > >Anders' way even now! > > > > Naughty, naughty scandinavians!!!! > >Haha, it's all part of the Grand Conspiracy, you know.... One day we are >gonna rule the earth! And it all starts by conspiring against the latins in >small groups on the internet! Oh please make me your slave. But I have a few conditions - I wish to be only a doll like object, no worries about earning a living, good food and entertainment and time to time vacations in the tropics naturally! > > > All of you in the heretic club; by the way we count on organizing a >meeting > > very soon. ;-) > > Nice to hear from you , drop a line when you manage.# > >I need to join that club sometime... Sweetheart you are invited and welcome in full right. Love Cybele 7122 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 9:44am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation Hi Anders I live just beside Wisdom Books in UK. If you need any help but you should reconsider your plan of conspiration against latins.... ;-) Cybele >> >----- Original Message ----- >From: ppp >>Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:44 AM >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation > > > > Hi, Anders and Jonothan: > > About books, as Jonothan infered Wisdom Books must be > > the biggest distributer of Buddhist books in North > > America. They used also to be a sole distributer of all > > the publications of the Pali Text Society. However, > > about a few months ago, another book seller [pariyatti.com] > > overtook the distribution of all the PTS books. So it is not > > bad idea to check their Web site, too. tadao > >Thanks 7123 From: Brian Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 10:54am Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Erik wrote: > > You mentioned that some people may think that anapanasati is > > too difficult. I find this very surprising. Why might some people > > think this? > > That question has interested me for some time as well! In fact, I > would be VERY curious to see any passage from any sutta where the > Buddha explicitly told his disciples that anapanasati was "too > difficult" a practice. Dear Erik, One possible reason someone might consider anapanasati "too difficult" is that when the body and the breath become calm, the sensations of the breath can become so subtle that they seem almost to disappear. A remedy for this is to cup a handful of warm water and snuffle the water up into the nose and then blow it out. Doing this a few times for each nostril leaves the nasal linings very sensitive, and the breath sensations become much more vivid. Metta, Brian 7124 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Dear Friends, There are a fair number of discussion about Anapanasati and samatha bhavana (tranquil meditation) previously discussed in this group which may shed insights to why some members think Anapanasati is a difficult meditation practice. Follow the following link (you may have to cut-and-past if this is split into multiple lines): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL 20POST%20LINKS And look under: Anapanasati Samadhi Samatha and Vipassana bhavana. kom --- Brian wrote: > --- Erik wrote: > > > > You mentioned that some people may think that anapanasati > is > > > too difficult. I find this very surprising. Why might some > people > > > think this? > > > > That question has interested me for some time as well! In fact, > I > > would be VERY curious to see any passage from any sutta > where the > > Buddha explicitly told his disciples that anapanasati was "too > > difficult" a practice. > > Dear Erik, > > One possible reason someone might consider anapanasati "too > difficult" is that when the body and the breath become calm, the > sensations of the breath can become so subtle that they seem > almost to disappear. > > A remedy for this is to cup a handful of warm water and snuffle > the water up into the nose and then blow it out. Doing this a few > times for each nostril leaves the nasal linings very sensitive, and > the breath sensations become much more vivid. > > Metta, > Brian 7125 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Understanding Realities at Many Levels --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Erick: > Some psychologits belive that when we converse, over 60% of > information is transmitted non-verbally (by such a medium as > gesture). When such non-verbal information is not present, it is > hard to understand the true intent of the converstion. NOW, ERICK. > The above argument applies to all the discoureses documented in the > Sutta-Pitake. We cannot see the Buddha's eyes, his hand movements, > bodily movements. All the important informational aids have been lost > in the words kept in the Sutta-Pitake, indicating it would be > a dengerous endevour if we read/interpred the suttas LITERALLY. > (Just as easily as I was misled by Sarah's words, > you may be misled by the Buddha's words.) Just a consideration. You are sounding, to these ears, just a tad too overcautious here, my friend. Sometimes you can accept things to mean say exactly what they say, particularly when the language is so direct. Say, for example, you're a "farang" (foreign) visitor arriving in Thailand for the first time. If I tell you "it's "considered a VERY bad idea in general to denigrate the Buddha-dharma in this country," does that require a whole lot of interpretation? In other words, sometimes things really ARE that simple. And in most cases the Suttas- -as one would expect of any totally masterful teaching arising from the omniscient mind of a Tathagata--can be understood AND APPLIED at so many levels. Often times, the very simplest understanding of what is has been so plainly-spoken by Lord Buddha will suffice for us RIGHT HERE AND NOW. In other words, there's no need for a Ph.D. to figure out the Suttas or find a USEFUL, SKILLFUL, HELPFUL interpretation of their meaning for us RIGHT HERE AND NOW, no matter our present level of development or accumulated wisdom. And yet I agree completely that a literal reading, if that's something one becomes hung up on is an example of clinging to views. One example would be getting hung up on the most literal interpretation of the precepts and their execution, which to these khandas represents a perfect example of silabattaparamasa, or "clinging to rites and rituals", one of the three fetters terminated at the moment of stream-entry. This "wrong practice" (arising from wrong understanding) is yet another extreme to be avoided. To give one controversial example, the idea that one could not EVER use "drugs"--even the most dangerous drug of all, alcohol--and that even a glass of, say, wine, MUST be INHERENTLY wrong in terms of keeping the precept to abstain from intoxicants. None of this represents in the slightest the intent of the Buddha's teachings on avoiding intoxicants (which is that some drugs like alcohol--especially alcohol--condition ahirika and anotappa and serve as excellent supporting conditions for breaking the other four panca-sila: killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct). That sort of wrong understanding would also ignore the intention, skillfulness, and understanding of the person taking them (as medicine, for example, which as Robert noted here before when asking Khun Sujin about someone taking morphine if they're in serious pain, if that is a form of violating the precept against intoxicants, to which Robert noted she replied that to believe would be an example of an extreme view). In fact, as I saw it, during yesterday's discussion, Khun Sujin entirely agreed that the notion of using even alcohol skillfully (as a medicine for example) would NOT be a violation of the precept to refrain from intoxicants, with my addition to that to think that to merely abstain in terms of "outward behavior" has nothing to do with the precept, and is in fact a form of silabbataparamasa itself! And Robert further noted that the leader of the Taliban abstains from alcohol (we assume, if he follows Islamic law), and yet, is that mere abstention the same as correctly understanding the Buddha's intent of the precept to refrain from intoxicants (knowing nothing of the man's cittas, I cannot make any assumptions, he may well be an "emanation" here simply to demonstrate for us the law of anicca, impermanence, by havcing the statues of the Buddas destroyed, solely to help us overcome our fixation and clinging to mere appearances--WHO REALLY KNOWS??? :) :) :) )? Furthermore, Khun Sujin noted that we can be aware of the present moment with Right Mindfulness AT ANY TIME, with or without "drugs" (such an incredibly broad category) in the system, for example. By the way, I mention this only because this had been a point of some contention here before, and I also wish to be clear I would NEVER endorse anything that would lead to ANY type of unskillful behavior, but am merely using this as an example of how we can come, through Right View, to see the deeper meaning and intent of the precepts, and how over time Right View may be developed--perhaps first by simple total abstention from acting through any of the five akusala-kamma- pathas leading to killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct, and taking intoxicants to the point of heedlessness, withouth any real "Right Uderstanding" of realities in the present. In fact, that was noted to be motivated through the coarses of the afflictions (kilesa), the vitikkakama (see Khun Sujin's explanation on these three types of kilesa here: http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat8.html). The broader point is that we can read the Suttas and understand them at many levels, like any good metaphor and analogy, beginning perhaps with the more literal interpretation and then, as our undersatnding of realities deepens, their and deeper deeper meaning and then, when the characteristics of all things are penetrated directly, at the most correct level (which is why it is said that stream-entry entails the termination of silabattaparamasa, the fetter of clinging to wrong views regarding "rites, rituals, and precepts," for example). So again, we will all begin understanding at the level we're presently at, because there's simply no other way. It's where we are RIGHT NOW, and no amount of willing (following the law of anatta that is "non-controlling") it to be otherwies will ever change this very simple truth. And that should be nothing for undue worry or concern. It is a very basic reality, a statement of the barest fact. Lord Buddha taught us in such a way that even beginners, even those without the deeper knowledges of vipassana-nana for example, or even supramundane wisdom, can begin applying the Buddha's often very simple formualic remedies at the most basic level, beginning where we are, RIGHT HERE AND NOW. Because in the final analysis, there simply is no choice for us, no other way than to begin where we are. And that beginning, at the most basic level, of learning to discern what is wholesome and skillful from what is unwholesome and unskillful will, over time, allow us to grow in wisdom to the point where we come to know directly "what is to be put down, and what is to be taken up" in such a way it will lead us to the right teachers and teachings on Right View, the only teachings which will help us PERMANENTLY terminate the round of suffering we associate with samasara. Yours in the Dhamma, Erik 7126 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:42pm Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on the Role of the Jhanas on the Path --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > I was thinking today about the jhanas. In several places in the > suttas, it is the the jhanas, especially the first four (with the remaining > four being modifications of the 4th jhana), that are described as Right > Concentration. Clearly, since concentration is a condition for the arising of > insight, this makes the jhanas important. But another thought occurred to me > with regard to the importance of the jhanas which I would like to put forward > for your consideration. It is the following: > The jhanas, first through eighth, form an ascending chain of > increasing relative emptiness. As the mind ascends from jhana to jhana, more > and more is let go of. It occurs to me that gaining familiarity with, or > mastery of, these states of relative emptiness can serve as a kind of > preparation of the mind for the nibbanic experience of ultimate emptiness. > Perhaps this is the reason that there were numerous cases in the suttas of > people who had mastered the jhanas easily attaining enlightenment, for > example by just hearing a sutta spoken by the Buddha, or after just a brief > period of practice. What a wonderul way of putting thins, as per usual, Howard. > Any thoughts? I sure hope not! :) :) :) 7127 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:47pm Subject: Re: Nietszche and Dhamma --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > Oh please make me your slave. > But I have a few conditions - I wish to be only a doll like object, Is this to this Sandinavian as well? (please? please?) no > worries about earning a living, good food and entertainment and time to time > vacations in the tropics naturally! Aaaah, vacations to the tropics! When you arrive here in Thailand aagin, we shall have to head South a bit and spend a little time hanging out on Ko Pha-Ngan for a bit! :) :) :) There is a sub-species of a certain type of mushroom that grows natively there in the soil of the Land of Lord Buddha I'm quite curious to sample! :) 7128 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:50pm Subject: Re: Nietszche and Dhamma --- Erik wrote: > --- "cybele chiodi" > wrote: BTW, I just want to say, apropos of this thread's title, that it was the combination of Neitzsche (specifically "Beyond Good and Evil") and LSD that enabled me to totally break the conditioning of my strict Mormon upbringing (not that I ever really believed it at any pojnt growing up, just that that sort of immersive social conditioning can take quite a bit of power to snap totally). 7129 From: Erik Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 1:59pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > There are a fair number of discussion about Anapanasati and samatha > bhavana (tranquil meditation) previously discussed in this group which > may shed insights to why some members think Anapanasati is a difficult > meditation practice. > > Follow the following link (you may have to cut-and-past if this is split into > multiple lines): > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL > 20POST%20LINKS > > And look under: > Anapanasati > Samadhi > Samatha and Vipassana bhavana. Thank you Kom, for the various discussions amongst the group members here on their various views, suppositions, notions, and ideas regarding anapanasati and its so-called "difficulty". Anumodhana to your efforts, but that, again, was specifically NOT my request on this specific point. Again, I was hoping someone here might be able to provide us all with a CANONICAL reference we can ALL agree on as being the spoken words of the historical Siddhartha Gotama, and for the sake of this specific discussion I do no accept the canonicity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In other words, I will ONLY accept what is reputed to have been DIRECTLY spoken and heard (as in the Evam me suttam) sense, as Lord Buddha's DIRECT instruction to his disciples on this point. 7130 From: Herman Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 7:25pm Subject: Re: Nietszche and Dhamma Hi all, I perceive monks to be people who have taken particular vows. Whether they keep them or not is between them and their not-selves :-) I know that in certain cultures being a monk can be about having a particular kind of social status, and being a means for lay people to think they are acquiring merit. The dana/merit thing is, in my opinion, a blight on Buddhist culture. Compare/contrast with this old catholic practise: The selling of indulgences by monks was a practise in the middle ages to fund the building of St Peters in the Vatican, and other 'worthwhile" projects. People were told, and believed, that by buying indulgences they would shorten their stay in purgatory, a waiting room between heaven and hell. Since the reformation, the Occident has moved on. Dana has become socially entrenched through taxation. You participate in the social welfare network whether you like it or not. Merit doesn't come in to it, but it is a result nonetheless. Noone dies of hunger. Everyone can spend more time than they are able to watching their breath, dwelling in the jhanas, cessation, whatever, to ensure they are not born again. All that is required is a 40 hour a week alms round. Obsequious behaviour to those who call themselves monks and teachers does not result in merit. It is simply a practise that consigns both giver and receiver to endless repetitions of the same dishonesty. If not everyone and everything is a teacher, than we might as well all go home. (I don't know where that is :-) Herman --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > Changed the name of the thread, to make it on-topic. > > Yup. Actually, something dawned on me a few weeks ago. As many others, I > used to perceive monks as being much more advanced than lay people because > they devote their lives to the Dhamma and all. But then it occurred to me > that monks aren't necessarily more advanced than lay people - They're just > more desperate (or willing - insert any loaded word here. My intention was > not to load the word, but I can't find one) to end suffering! > Still, I intend to become a monk myself someday (have to finish school first > and all). 7131 From: Herman Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 8:03pm Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on the Role of the Jhanas on the Path Hi Howard, Just to let you know I always get something from your posts. You always have a very precise, clear message. And then it is always topped off with the quote from the Diamond Sutra. Hard to beat, that one. I think the combination of your post on the jhanas and the bubble in the stream reminder is especially good. Awareness , too, is b(ull)s(hit) Herman --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > I was thinking today about the jhanas. In several places in the > suttas, it is the the jhanas, especially the first four (with the remaining > four being modifications of the 4th jhana), that are described as Right > Concentration. Clearly, since concentration is a condition for the arising of > insight, this makes the jhanas important. But another thought occurred to me > with regard to the importance of the jhanas which I would like to put forward > for your consideration. It is the following: > The jhanas, first through eighth, form an ascending chain of > increasing relative emptiness. As the mind ascends from jhana to jhana, more > and more is let go of. It occurs to me that gaining familiarity with, or > mastery of, these states of relative emptiness can serve as a kind of > preparation of the mind for the nibbanic experience of ultimate emptiness. > Perhaps this is the reason that there were numerous cases in the suttas of > people who had mastered the jhanas easily attaining enlightenment, for > example by just hearing a sutta spoken by the Buddha, or after just a brief > period of practice. Any thoughts? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 7132 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 9:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Howard, Erik and others --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Erik) - > > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about Right > > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And what of > all > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the > suttas? > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma understanding, > then > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are > further > apart than i had realized. Below are a few extracts I have collected from the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis, PTS), Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification, BPS) and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, BPS). I present these for what they are -- I realise they are not conclusive, but they do throw light on how the certain aspects of the teachings were understood by the ancient commentators. Any questions or comments are of course welcome. Jon EXTRACTS FROM THE ABHIDHAMMATTHA-SANGAHA TRANSLATION (CMA) VII, Guide to #38 [The Four Noble Truths] "The noble truth of the way to the cessation of suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path. In the teaching of the four truths, this is the collection of eight cetasikas corresponding to the eight path factors arisen in the cittas of the four supramundane paths. It should be noted that while in the section on the requisites of enlightenment, the eight path factors may be either mundane or supramundane, in the teaching of the Four Noble Truths they are exclusively supramundane." VII, Compendium of Requisites of Enlightenment (bodhipakkhiyasangaha) Guide to #30 (Eight Path Factors) "Of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, right view is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths. Right intention is the cetasika of initial application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, and harmlessness. Path-factors (3)-(5) are identical with the three abstinences. Right effort is the same as the four supreme efforts. Right mindfulness is the same as the four foundations of mindfulness. Right concentration is defined in terms of the four jhanas of the Suttanta system (see D.22/ii,313)" Guide to #25 (Four Supreme Efforts) "Four supreme efforts (sammapphadhaanaa): Here one mental factor, energy, performs four separate functions. This fourfold effort is identical with right effort, the sixth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path." IX, Guide to #34 "The path consciousness (magga citta) simultaneously performs four functions, one with respect to each of the four truths. These four functions, mentioned here, are-- the full understanding (parinna) of suffering; the abandoning (pahana) of craving, its origin: the realization (sacchikiriya) of Nibbana, its cessation; and the development (bhavana) of the Noble Eightfold Path." EXTRACTS FROM THE VISUDDHIMAGGA XVI, 13-31 B. Description Of The Truths "19. Because the fourth truth goes (leads) to the cessation of suffering since it confronts that cessation as its object, and being the way to attain cessation of suffering, it is called dukkha- nirodha-gaaminii pa.tipadaa the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "23. … The truth of the path has the characteristic of an outlet. Its function is to abandon defilements. It is manifested as emergence." XVI, 75 - 83 'The Truth Of The Way' "75. In the description of the way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given. Though they have, of course, already been explained as to meaning in the Description of the Aggregates, still we shall deal with them here in order to remain aware of the difference between them when they occur in a single moment on the occasion of the path. "76. Briefly, when a meditator is progressing towards the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with nibbana as its object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance. [and so on through factors 2-6 of the Eightfold Path] "82. When he exerts himself thus, the non-forgetfulness in his mind, which is associated with that right view, shakes off wrong mindfulness, and that is called right mindfulness. It has the characteristic of establishing. Its function is not to forget. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong mindfulness. "83. When his mind is thus guarded by supreme mindfulness, the unification of mind, which is associated with that right view, abolishes wrong concentration, and that is called right concentration. It has the characteristic of non-distraction. Its function is to concentrate. It is manifested as the abandoning of wrong concentration." … "102. In addition all the truths are of one kind because they are not unreal, or because they must be directly-known. They are of two kinds as (i and ii) mundane or (iii and iv) supramundane… "104. … And the last two are similar since they are hard to grasp because profound, since they are supramundane, and since they are free from cankers. … And the first and fourth as similar in being formed. They are dissimilar in being mundane and supramundane." SUMMARY FROM VIBHANGA Ch 4 Analysis Of Truth Summary from par. 206 Right view is wisdom, understanding right thought is mentation, thinking right speech, action and livelihood are avoiding etc the 4 verbal wrong actions, 3 wrong bodily actions and wrong livelihood respectively right effort is the arousing of mental energy right mindfulness is mindfulness right concentration is stability of consciousness, steadfastness Summary from par. 217-218 The truth of the path-- - has immeasurable object - has path as its cause - has external object - is mental concomitants - accompanies consciousness - tends to release 7133 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 6:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/4/01 9:19:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard, Erik and others > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Erik) - > > > > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about Right > > > > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And what of > > all > > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the > > suttas? > > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma understanding, > > then > > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are > > further > > apart than i had realized. > > > Below are a few extracts I have collected from the Vibhanga (Book of > Analysis, PTS), Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification, BPS) and > Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, BPS). > > I present these for what they are -- I realise they are not conclusive, > but they do throw light on how the certain aspects of the teachings were > understood by the ancient commentators. > > Any questions or comments are of course welcome. > > Jon > ============================== Thank you for the effort you had to exert to provide these extracts. I will spend some time on them! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7134 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 11:37pm Subject: Jhanas Are Within Our Reach Dear Dhammastudy Friends The following message is my answers to Sakula's questions on Jhana on dhamma-list (message 22041). --------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sakula How are you? The answer is Yes to your question: " is it important to know that one is in the first or second (or whatever) Jhana and if so why?" Reason? A simple reason is that one thing leads to another. As you might have read this phenomenon in Visuddhimagga, when we become quite skillful in a practice, we kind of get bored! We want to try out something slightly different and difficult, don't we? Mental cultivation practices are very addictive (the only case of good addiction?) because they are our very minds in progress, literally. Once you are hooked, you want to go further and further. So if you ever get to the stage of pre-jhanic concentration (upaca samadhi), you won't stop at there. You would go for the First Jhana in due course. And you know what you don't like at the present level, and you would make every effort to get rid of it or them. As a result, you would end up at the next higher level of jhana. You also wrote: "Having asked that let me also add that I do not think (perhaps hope) that Jhana practice is not out of reach for anyone with diligent persistence and a very good teacher as guide. What do you think?" I agree with you. The most important keyword to remember to make jhana within our reach is the phrase ".. only by keeping away from sensuous preoccupations (kamesu vivicceva)". Once you understand this keyword and like the idea of it, you are on your way to jhana. Nothing can stop you. Jhana is within reach of anyone who could turn their back on sensuous preoccupations. As simple as that (in theory, of course)! Hope this message answered your questions. Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ 7135 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 0:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nietszche and Dhamma Dear Erik Sweetheart >>--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > Oh please make me your slave. > > But I have a few conditions - I wish to be only a doll like object, > >Is this to this Scandinavian as well? (please? please?) YES, sure! Actually you are the most suitable 'master' for me. Anders I have to raise up first... ;-) > >no > > worries about earning a living, good food and entertainment and >time to time > > vacations in the tropics naturally! > >Aaaah, vacations to the tropics! When you arrive here in Thailand >aagin, we shall have to head South a bit and spend a little time >hanging out on Ko Pha-Ngan for a bit! :) :) :) Wow this is too much appealing, I know a wonderful place to stay in Ko Pha Ngan 'master' - I am a very efficient slave when it comes to travelling! :-)))) > >There is a sub-species of a certain type of mushroom that grows >natively there in the soil of the Land of Lord Buddha I'm quite >curious to sample! :) > And you have chosen this Brazilian mad slave to share the experience of Moksha? ;-) Love and respectful bows to the master Cybele 7136 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 2:46am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nietszche and Dhamma ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:14 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nietszche and Dhamma --- "Anders Honoré" > Yup. Actually, something dawned on me a few weeks ago. As many others, I > used to perceive monks as being much more advanced than lay people because > they devote their lives to the Dhamma and all. But then it occurred to me > that monks aren't necessarily more advanced than lay people - They're just > more desperate (or willing - insert any loaded word here. My intention was > not to load the word, but I can't find one) to end suffering! > Still, I intend to become a monk myself someday (have to finish school first > and all). >I realize you are kidding, About what? Me becoming a monk or the other? > but just in case, here's are words that were often used for the motivation of the monks mentioned in the scripture: "Household life is confinement, a path of dust, going forth is like the open air. It is not easy for one living at home to lead the perfectly complete,= perfectly purified holy life, which is like polished conch." I wouldn't term this even close to desperate, willing, but appreciative of = the purity and the wholesome states. .... 7137 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 2:47am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 3:42 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nietszche and Dhamma > Oh please make me your slave. Haha, you gotta love those words coming from a woman :-) > But I have a few conditions - I wish to be only a doll like object, no > worries about earning a living, good food and entertainment and time to time > vacations in the tropics naturally! Oh sure! > >I need to join that club sometime... > > Sweetheart you are invited and welcome in full right. Sounds great! Where do I sign? 7138 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 2:48am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 3:44 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] looking for good Pali translation > > Hi Anders > > I live just beside Wisdom Books in UK. Lucky you. Buddhist books are hard to find in Denmark (simply because there sin't much translated). > If you need any help but you should reconsider your plan of conspiration > against latins.... ;-) Oh well, that's out of the question then :-) 7139 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 2:50am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nietszche and Dhamma ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nietszche and Dhamma > YES, sure! > Actually you are the most suitable 'master' for me. > Anders I have to raise up first... ;-) Hey! 7140 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 3:05am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:35 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > Yeah, but you didn't answer my question? What's the point? Why are you > practising? >I think the goal of Buddhism is the end of suffering. In our cases, we understand the meaning of the end differently. In your case, you think it = >is some part of your consciousness (but no-self) that lives on endlessly and being conscious of definitely nibbana, and perhaps other kandhas (without the "established"/"grasping" consciousness) . In my case, it is the cessation of the conditioned realities, as their conditions have been permanently eradicated. No, you misunderstand me. I'm not driving at eternalism in that sense. But no matter. >We have already established the differences between our understadings >of nibbana and annihilationism. Unless you have any more points, I >think we can close off the discussion about annihilation as well. Yup. Eternal bliss is definitely not I have in mind when I think of the end of suffering! Well, isn't that what characterises Nibbana? >You are mixing up suttas which are explained to different set of people. >You have to remember that we believe that the Buddha dispensed the >dhamma to suit each person's accumulation. For those who believe in >eternalism or annihilationism, he denied both extremes. For those who >understand (not directly know) the conditioned realities and >impermanence, he is more conventional in his usage of the language. >I think I can sufficiently explain your view about what annihilationism is = >and how it could be used to explain logically what you believe nibbana to >be. I think it would be benefiical for both of us if you could explain wha= >t my point of view (and perhaps Robert's, if they are similar) what our >view of annihilationism is and why it makes sense in the sutta context >that you mentioned? After all, we are not here to convince, only to >explain why things are so and see why other people think differently... I'm not sure I understand your question..... 7141 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 3:07am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy >Dear Anders Honoré >How are you? Quite well, thank you. The same goes for you I hope? >If you like the idea of reading translations done by the >collective group of intellectuals made up of experts in >languages, and experts in Dhamma, there are such translations in >Myanmar. >Translations are the final results of consultations among different >experts made up of both monks and laypeople before writing down a >single word. They also come with explanations of words or sticky >points as notes right after the paragraphs in which those words occur. >Sound good? Where to get them? The Myanmar embassy in your city or >nearest to your city could help you out. It actually sounds very interesting. I'm not sure if there's a Myanmar embassy to be found in Denmark though..... Could there be an alternative way of getting them? 7142 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 3:36am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" > >You are mixing up suttas which are explained to different set of people.= > >You have to remember that we believe that the Buddha dispensed the > >dhamma to suit each person's accumulation. For those who believe in > >eternalism or annihilationism, he denied both extremes. For those who > >understand (not directly know) the conditioned realities and > >impermanence, he is more conventional in his usage of the language. > >I think I can sufficiently explain your view about what annihilationism = is > = > >and how it could be used to explain logically what you believe nibbana to > >be. I think it would be benefiical for both of us if you could explain > wha= > >t my point of view (and perhaps Robert's, if they are similar) what our > >view of annihilationism is and why it makes sense in the sutta context > >that you mentioned? After all, we are not here to convince, only to > >explain why things are so and see why other people think differently... > > I'm not sure I understand your question..... I am requesting that you explain the Sutta (about the tathagatha not having ceased after the Buddha's death) using Robert's or my point of view to the best of your ability (we have discussed this quite a bit, I thi= nk you probably have learned a point or two) as if you are explaining to a third party why Robert and I have such views. kom 7143 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 6:16am Subject: Fwd: [d-l] Scholars and Meditators Hi group Thought of forwarding this very pertinent text. >From the book "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha – An Anthology of >Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya" >translated by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi: > >125. Scholars and Meditators > >. . . "friends, you should train yourselves thus: `Though we >ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are >meditators.' And why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have >personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbana). > And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: `Though we >ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are >Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the >world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." > (VI, 46) Metta Cybele 7144 From: ppp Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 11:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Understanding Realities at Many Levels Hi, Erick: Basically we are not disagreeing each other. I totally agree with you that one can find verious (numerous) levels of the Dhamma in the Tipitaka, and everybody can benefit it from reading any of the suttas (to a certain extent). However, the point I would like to emphasize is that when one, for instance, reads the Maha-sati-patthana sutta LITERALLY and applies it to one's practice, one would end up with treading the totally wrong path. (And 99% of us in fact has done the so-called (two-week) Vipassana medition, where we had to slow down all our activies to catch seeming realities = TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE.) Unless one has a keen keen keen panna, one cannot penerate the true meaning of what sati is just by reading the sutta. You must agree with my point! tadao 7145 From: ppp Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 11:30pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Hi, Abhidammika: Do you not think it would be much easier for Anders to study Pali than to study Burmese (At least she would have more resources/helps). tadao P.S. Thank you very much for the information on the presence of such a translation in Burmese. (As my next language to learn, I have to think about Burmese (which belongs to the Tibeto-Burman language family, which, in turn, is a subgroup of the Sino-Tibetan language family.) 7146 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 6:41am Subject: Idiotic meditation it was Understanding Realities at Many Levels Dear Tadao >However, the point I would like to emphasize is that when one, for > >instance, reads the Maha-sati-patthana sutta LITERALLY and applies >it to one's practice, one would end up with treading the >totally wrong path. (And 99% of us in fact has done >the so-called (two-week) Vipassana medition, where we >had to slow down all our activies to catch seeming >realities = TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE.) I can really appreciate that the many years of monastic practice led you to a skilful level of right speech indeed: if in your view that obviously you don't EVEN consider that could be fruit of simple DELUSION you feel entitled to affirm that Vipassana meditation is a 'TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE' I would like to remind you that many of us in this group and in all the buddhist world value and practice MEDITATION and practically you are extending your remarks about the practice to the practitioners, assuming that we are IDIOTS. realities = TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE.) Very interesting viewpoint. I would most appreciate discussing it with you. You seem very assertive, you must know all about it. I would beg you to pour out your wisdom to rescue this 'idiot' here from her delusion. Thanks. MetTa regards Cybele 7147 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 6:44am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao >P.S. Thank you very much for the information on >the presence of such a translation in Burmese. >(As my next language to learn, I have to think about >Burmese (which belongs to the Tibeto-Burman language family, >which, in turn, is a subgroup of the Sino-Tibetan language >family.) > I thought that would be extremely skilful and most beneficial if all of us could manage to learn the language of kindness to communicate with each other. Metta Cybele 7148 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 6:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath - Erik Dear Erik Dear group >Again, I was hoping someone here might be able to provide us all with >a CANONICAL reference we can ALL agree on as being the spoken words >of the historical Siddhartha Gotama, and for the sake of this >specific discussion I do no accept the canonicity of the Abhidhamma >Pitaka. In other words, I will ONLY accept what is reputed to have >been DIRECTLY spoken and heard (as in the Evam me suttam) sense, as >Lord Buddha's DIRECT instruction to his disciples on this point. "Originally, in the Agamas/Nikayas, the word Abhidhamma denoted not any particular type or style of composition but simply what pertained to, or was connnected with, the Buddha's Teaching. This usage is illustrated by a passage in the Mahagosinga-sutta of the Majjhima-Nikaya where the elder monks are said to have an Abhidhamma-katham, meaning a talk or discussion about the Dharma. Carried beyond a certain point, however, all discussion inevitably becomes technical. For this reason, unmistakeable as its initial spiritual emphasis might have been, every higher religious tradition sooner or later gives birth to a scholasticism..... By the time of King Asoka, in the middle of the 3rd century BCE, the Abhidhamma had reached practically its apogee (peak) of development and crystallized into a more or less self-contained and independent system of what we call the Abhidhamma-Pitaka." .... Sangharakshita Thought it might interest you. See your 'slave' is trying to be helpful! ;-) Love Cybele 7149 From: ppp Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 11:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Erik's debating skills Hi, Erick: Could you please explain (in simple/basic terms) how the Abhidhammic systems you are familiar with differ from the Pali Abhidamma? (Are they very much the same or differ greatly?) Thank you in advance, tadao 7150 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 7:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Idiotic meditation it was Understanding Realities at Many Levels Dear Cybele, Take it a little easy.....they were strong words, but I'm quite sure there was no implication of you or anyone else being an idiot! Perhaps you could tell us what the purpose is in your practice of trying to slow down activities, whether you think this is a way to catch realities and how this fits into the Buddha's Teachings. Let's keep it pleasant with your smiles;-))) Sarah p.s Could you and your Scandinavian tropical island friends TRY not to send messages which JUST consist of non-dhamma chit-chat! Thanks and take care, Cybele - we all appreciate your insights here. >cybele chiodi wrote: > > I can really appreciate that the many years of monastic practice led you to > a skilful level of right speech indeed: > if in your view that obviously you don't EVEN consider that could be fruit > of simple DELUSION you feel entitled to affirm that Vipassana meditation is > a 'TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE' I would like to remind you that many of us in > this group and in all the buddhist world value and practice MEDITATION and > practically you are extending your remarks about the practice to the > practitioners, assuming that we are IDIOTS. > realities = TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE.) > Very interesting viewpoint. > I would most appreciate discussing it with you. > You seem very assertive, you must know all about it. > I would beg you to pour out your wisdom to rescue this 'idiot' here from her > delusion. > Thanks. > > MetTa regards > > Cybele 7151 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 7:25am Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Dear Erik, --- Erik wrote: > Thank you Kom, for the various discussions amongst the group members > here on their various views, suppositions, notions, and ideas > regarding anapanasati and its so-called "difficulty". Anumodhana to > your efforts, but that, again, was specifically NOT my request on > this specific point. > > Again, I was hoping someone here might be able to provide us all with > a CANONICAL reference we can ALL agree on as being the spoken words > of the historical Siddhartha Gotama, and for the sake of this > specific discussion I do no accept the canonicity of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. In other words, I will ONLY accept what is reputed to have > been DIRECTLY spoken and heard (as in the Evam me suttam) sense, as > Lord Buddha's DIRECT instruction to his disciples on this point. You an in an enviable position. I think the best person (perhaps) to ask this question is TA Sujin. She has been studying the tipitakas over 50 years and also are associated with people who are pali scholars. If you decide to go this path, I would really appreciate it if you would report your findings (what she says and what you think). Or maybe if you can wait (to ask her) until October when I will be in BKK, then I will get to listen to this conversation myself. ;-) BTW, I have heard rumors that you are residing very close to where I will be in BKK; perhaps, we will get a chance to meet yet. It would be great if you can come to India with us too (so I get to listen to your conversation some more...)... kom 7152 From: ppp Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 0:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Hi, Erick (and Kom): Majority of the suttas start with "evam me suttam" (thus, by me, heard (an impersonal passive)). It is 'generally' possible to date which Nakaayas are older than the others or which groups of suttas may be older than other sets of suttas. But I do not think that in any future we have a scholar who can atually identify the suttas which are direct words of the Buddha and those which are not. It may wise for us to take the whole Tipitaka (and commentaries) as the precious aid for understanding the significance of: sabba papassa akaranam kusalassa upasampada sacitta pariyopanam etam Buddhana sasanam (ingnore mispellings, it's just out of my memory). tadao 7153 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 9:06am Subject: Non idiotic communication Dear Sarah I am the first who most appreciate the policy of 'don't worry, be happy' and 'take it easy'. It actually belongs to my character being relaxed and non apprehensive. But we cannot be always light-hearted when the situation requires an assertive response as 'assertive' and dismissive of others sensitivity it was the declaration. It's not the first time that Tadao implies severe judgements upon various issues. He is perfectly entitled to be 'rigid' on his positions but he cannot discredit people and practices that many of us, you included have dedicated not '2 weeks' of our lives but years, energy, devotion and sincere efforts. If we were deluded or not is certainly not his concern. Excuse moi but whatever merits Tadao has and I reckon he should have many - everything here is disputable as nobody is enlightemned but the choice of the adjective IDIOTIC written in this very fashion was quite unskilful. Now because he partake with Khun Sujin honorable clan, this doesn't exclude him or anybody else from mindful communication. He is the one who HAS TO TAKE IT EASY and I really wonder why the remark comes to me and not to both of us? In your viewpoint this should be equanimous from a moderator? I am not taking it personally, could not care less Sarah - I discuss in another list in front of 500 hundred 'non selves' and the thing that doen't worries me in least is 'losing face' or prestige. I am mercilessly sincere and honest with myself first thing. But I have a very keen sense of justice and I battle for what I believe as I am ready to disclaim it when I aware that is not valid or meaningful anymore. I am not merely attached to principles but don't ask me to cool down my fervour for Dhamma. I observed people here in unconcealed 'indignation' because I persisted on the subject of meditation and don't think I have been offensive with whom I was discussing it like Kom, Robert or Anders. If I were not GENUINELY interested in Abhidhamma study I would simple drop the question. Tadao has fully right to express his opinion but he must improve his communications means. Love Cybele P.S.: Can you again remind people to TRIM the messages as they continue with 'congratulations and I agree' keeping the full tails messages to refer unecessarily. Thanks. Our chit chat takes 1 k their messages takes 20 k. Perhaps a bit of lightheartedness would be preferable even if frivolous that being UNKIND with each other. > >Dear Cybele, > >Take it a little easy.....they were strong words, but I'm quite sure there >was >no implication of you or anyone else being an idiot! > >Perhaps you could tell us what the purpose is in your practice of trying to >slow down activities, whether you think this is a way to catch realities >and >how this fits into the Buddha's Teachings. > >Let's keep it pleasant with your smiles;-))) > >Sarah > >p.s Could you and your Scandinavian tropical island friends TRY not to send >messages which JUST consist of non-dhamma chit-chat! Thanks and take care, >Cybele - we all appreciate your insights here. > > > >cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > I can really appreciate that the many years of monastic practice led you >to > > a skilful level of right speech indeed: > > if in your view that obviously you don't EVEN consider that could be >fruit > > of simple DELUSION you feel entitled to affirm that Vipassana meditation >is > > a 'TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE' I would like to remind you that many of us >in > > this group and in all the buddhist world value and practice MEDITATION >and > > practically you are extending your remarks about the practice to the > > practitioners, assuming that we are IDIOTS. > > realities = TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE.) > > Very interesting viewpoint. > > I would most appreciate discussing it with you. > > You seem very assertive, you must know all about it. > > I would beg you to pour out your wisdom to rescue this 'idiot' here from >her > > delusion. > > Thanks. > > > > MetTa regards > > > > Cybele > > 7154 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 9:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath - kom Dear Kom > >Or maybe if you can wait (to ask her) until October when I will be in BKK, >then I will get to listen to this conversation myself. ;-) BTW, I have >heard >rumors that you are residing very close to where I will be in BKK; perhaps, >we will get a chance to meet yet. It would be great if you can come to >India with us too (so I get to listen to your conversation some more...)... > >kom What is this India business? How it comes I have not been informed you are going to my beloved India? :-( I am most indignant... ;-) What is this Indian meeting about or only the privileged ones are invited? LOve Cybele 7155 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:49am Subject: Samatha-Vipassana Buddhist Meditation by Francis Story (The Anagarika Sugatananda) The root-cause of rebirth and suffering is avijja conjoined with and reacting upon tanha. These two causes form a vicious circle; on the one hand, concepts, the result of ignorance, and on the other hand, desire arising from concepts. The world of phenomena has no meaning beyond the meaning given to it by our own interpretation. When that interpretation is conditioned by avijja, we are subject to the state known as vipallasa, or hallucination. Sañña-vipallasa, hallucination of perception; citta-vipallasa, hallucination of consciousness, and ditthi-vipallasa, hallucination of views, cause us to regard that which is impermanent (anicca) as permanent, that which is painful (dukkha) as a source of pleasure, and that which is unreal (anatta), or literally without any self existence, as being a real, self-existing entity. Consequently, we place a false interpretation on all the sensory experiences we gain through the six channels of cognition, that is, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, sense of touch and mind cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya and mano (ayatana). Physics, by showing that the realm of phenomena we know through these channels of cognition does not really correspond to the physical world known to science, has confirmed this Buddhist truth. We are deluded by our own senses. Pursuing what we imagine to be desirable, an object of pleasure, we are in reality only following a shadow, trying to grasp a mirage. It is anicca, dukkha, anatta - impermanent, associated with suffering, an insubstantial. Being so, it can only be the cause of impermanence, suffering and insubstantiality, since like begets like; and we ourselves, who chase the illusion, are also impermanent, subject to suffering and without any persistent ego-principle. It is a case of a shadow pursuing a shadow. The purpose of Buddhist meditation, therefore, is to gain more than an intellectual understanding of this truth, to liberate ourselves from the delusion and thereby put an end to both ignorance and craving. If the meditation does not produce results tending to this consummation - results which are observable in the character and the whole attitude to life - it is clear that there is something wrong either with the system or with the method of employing it. It is not enough to see lights, to have visions or to experience ecstasy. These phenomena are too common to be impressive to the Buddhist who really understands the purpose of Buddhist meditation. There are actual dangers in them which are apparent to one who is also a student of psychopathology. In the Buddha's great discourse on the practice of mindfulness, the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta, both the object and the means of attaining it are clearly set forth. Attentiveness to the movements of the body, to the ever-changing states of the mind, is to be cultivated in order that their real nature should be known. Instead of identifying these physical and mental phenomena with the false concept of "self," we are to see them as they really are: movements of a physical body, an aggregate of the four elements, (mahabhutas) subject to physical laws of causality on the one hand, and on the other, a flux of successive phases of consciousness arising and passing away in response to external stimuli. They are to be viewed objectively, as though they were processes not associated with ourselves but belonging to another order of phenomena. From what can selfishness and egotism proceed if not from the concept of "self" (sakkayaditthi)? If the practice of any form of meditation leaves selfishness or egotism unabated, it has not been successful. A tree is judged by its fruits and a man by his actions; there is no other criterion. Particularly is this true in Buddhist psychology, because the man is his actions. In the truest sense they, or the continuity of kamma and vipaka which they represent, are the only claim he can make to any persistent identity, not only through the different phases of this life but also from one life to another. Attentiveness with regard to body and mind serves to break down the illusion of self; and not only that, it also cuts off craving and attachment to external objects, so that ultimately there is neither the "self" that craves nor any object of craving. It is a long and arduous discipline, and one that can only be undertaken in retirement from the world and its cares. Yet even a temporary retirement, a temporary course of this discipline, can bear good results in that it establishes an attitude of mind which can be applied to some degree in the ordinary situations of life. Detachment, objectivity, is an invaluable aid to clear thinking; it enables a man to sum up a given situation without bias, personal or otherwise, and to act in that situation with courage and discretion. Another gift it bestows is that of concentration - the ability to focus the mind and keep it steadily fixed on a single point (ekaggata, or one-pointedness), and this is the great secret of success in any undertaking. The mind is hard to tame; it roams here and there restlessly as the wind, or like an untamed horse, but when it is fully under control, it is the most powerful instrument in the whole universe. He who has mastered his own mind is indeed master of the Three Worlds. In the first place he is without fear. Fear arises because we associate mind and body (nama-rupa) with "self"; consequently any harm to either is considered to be harm done to oneself. But he who has broken down this illusion by realizing that the five khandha process is merely the manifestation of cause and effect, does not fear death or misfortune. He remains equable alike in success and failure, unaffected by praise or blame. The only thing he fears is demeritorious action, because he knows that no thing or person in the world can harm him except himself, and as his detachment increases, he becomes less and less liable to demeritorious deeds. Unwholesome action comes of an unwholesome mind, and as the mind becomes purified, healed of its disorders, bad kamma ceases to accumulate. He comes to have a horror of wrong action and to take greater and greater delight in those deeds that are rooted in alobha, adosa, and amoha - generosity, benevolence and wisdom. Anapana Sati One of the most universally-applicable methods of cultivating mental concentration is anapanasati, attentiveness on the in-going and out-going breath. This, unlike the Yogic systems, does not call for any interference with the normal breathing, the breath being merely used as a point on which to fix the attention, at the tip of the nostrils. The attention must not wander, even to follow the breath, but must be kept rigidly on the selected spot. In the initial stages it is advisable to mark the respiration by counting, but as soon as it is possible to keep the mind fixed without this artificial aid, it should be discontinued and only used when it is necessary to recall the attention. As the state of mental quiescence (samatha) is approached, the breath appears to become fainter and fainter, until it is hardly discernible. It is at this stage that certain psychic phenomena appear, which may at first be disconcerting. A stage is reached when the actual bodily dukkha, the sensation of arising and passing away of the physical elements in the body, is felt. This is experienced as a disturbance, but it must be remembered that it is an agitation that is always present in the body but we are unaware of it until the mind becomes stabilized. It is the first direct experience of the dukkha (suffering) which is inherent in all phenomena - the realization within oneself of the first of the Four Noble Truths, Dukkha Ariya Sacca. When that is passed there follows the sensation of piti, rapturous joy associated with the physical body. The teacher of vipassana, however, is careful never to describe to his pupil beforehand what he is likely to experience, for if he does so, there is a strong possibility that the power of suggestion will produce a false reaction, particularly in those cases where the pupil is very suggestible and greatly under the influence of the teacher. Devices in Meditation In kammattana, it is permissible to use certain devices, such as the earth or colour kasina, as focal points for the attention. A candle flame, a hole in the wall, or some metal object can also be used, and the method of using them is found in the Pali texts and the Visuddhi-magga. In the texts themselves it is to be noted that the Buddha gave objects of meditation to disciples in accordance with their individual characteristics, and his unerring knowledge of the right technique for each came from his insight into their previous births. Similarly with recursive meditation, a subject would be given which was easily comprehensible to the pupil, or which served to counteract some strong, unwholesome tendency in his nature. Thus, to one attracted by sensual indulgence, the Buddha would recommend meditation on the impurity of the body, or the "cemetery meditation." Here the object is to counterbalance attraction by repulsion, but it is only a "skillful means" to reach the final state, in which attraction and repulsion both cease to exist. In the Arahant there is neither liking nor disliking: he regards all things with perfect equanimity, as did Thera Maha Moggallana when he accepted a handful of rice from a leper. Beads The use of the rosary in Buddhism is often misunderstood. If it is used for the mechanical repetition of a set formula, the repeating of so many phrases as an act of piety, as in other religions, its value is negligible. When it is used as means of holding the attention and purifying the mind, however, it can be a great help. One of the best ways of employing it, because it calls for undivided attention, is to repeat the Pali formula of the qualities of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, beginning "Iti'pi so Bhagava - " with the first bead, starting again with the second and continuing to the next quality: "Iti'pi so Bhagava, Arahan - " and so on until with the last bead the entire formula is repeated from beginning to end. This cannot be carried out successfully unless the mind is entirely concentrated on what is being done. At the same time the recalling of the noble qualities of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha lifts the mind to a lofty plane, since the words carry with them a meaning the impresses itself on the pattern of the thought-moments as they arise and pass away. The value of this in terms of Abhidhamma psychology lies in the wholesome nature of the cittakkhana, or "consciousness-moment" in its uppada (arising), thiti (static) and bhanga (disappearing) phases. Each of these wholesome cittakkhana contributes to the improvement of the sankhara; or aggregate of tendencies; in other words, it directs the subsequent thought-moments into a higher realm and tends to establish the character on that level. Samatha Bhavana Samatha bhavana, the development of mental tranquillity with concentration, is accompanied by three benefits; it gives happiness in the present life, a favorable rebirth, and the freedom from mental defilements which is a prerequisite for attainment of insight. In samatha the mind becomes like a still, clear pool completely free from disturbance and agitation, and ready to mirror on its surface the nature of things as they really are, the aspect of them which is hidden from ordinary knowledge by the restlessness of craving. It is the peace and fulfillment which is depicted on the features of the Buddha, investing his images with a significance that impresses even those who have no knowledge of what it means. Such an image of the Buddha can itself be a very suitable object of meditation, and is, in fact, the one that most Buddhists instinctively use. The very sight of the tranquil image can calm and pacify a mind distraught with worldly hopes and fears. It is the certain and visible assurance of Nibbana. Vipassana Bhavana Vipassana bhavana is realization of the three signs of being, anicca, dukkha, and anatta, by direct insight. These three characteristics, impermanence, suffering and non-self, can be grasped intellectually, as scientific and philosophical truth, but this is not in itself sufficient to rid the mind of egoism and craving. The final objective lies on a higher level of awareness, the direct "intuitional" plane, where it is actually experienced as psychological fact. Until this personal confirmation is obtained, the sphere of sense perception (ayatana) and sensory-responses remain stronger than the intellectual conviction; the two function side by side on different levels of consciousness, but it is usually the sphere dominated by avijja which continues to determine the course of life by volitional action. The philosopher who fails to live according to his philosophy is the most familiar example of this incompatibility between theory and practice. When the direct perception is obtained, however, what was at its highest intellectual level still merely a theory becomes actual knowledge, in precisely the same way that we "know" when we are hot or cold hungry or thirsty. The mind that has attained it is established in the Dhamma, and pañña, wisdom, has taken the place of delusion. Discursive meditation, such as that practiced in Christian devotion, is entirely on the mental level, and can be undertaken by anyone at any time. It calls for no special preparation or conditions. For the more advanced exercises of samatha and vipassana, however, the strictest observance of sila, the basic moral rules, becomes necessary. These techniques are best followed in seclusion, away from the impurities of worldly life and under the guidance of an accomplished master. Many people have done themselves psychic harm by embarking on them without due care in this respect. It is not advisable for anyone to experiment on his own; those who are unable to place themselves under a trustworthy teacher will do best to confine themselves to discursive meditation. It cannot take them to enlightenment but will benefit them morally and prepare them for the next stage. 7156 From: Erik Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: Samatha-Vipassana --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: Cybele, I just wanted to say SADHU! SADHU! SADHU! for posting that EXCELLENT Dhamma-teaching! I am saving up a post in this very vein regarding a visit to Wat Mahatat Section 5 yesterday. I will be returning there again and again for further instruction in 100% dead-on Satipatthana meditation, is all I will say at this point! :) :) :) (p.s. Sarah, regarding your moderator's comments to the Scandinavian contingent here: are the expressions of a bit of levity, lightness, and humor and the Dhamma mutually exclusive? :) :) :). 7157 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 4:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Non idiotic communication Dear Cybele, If I've upset you further rather than helping, I'm sorry! I fully agree that we should all respect each others' practices and viewpoints, even those we disagree with. It wasn't a very skilful use of words and I wasn't defending them at all. Certainly those of us who've had the good fortune (in my opinion!) to study with K.Sujin should be as mindful if not more mindful in this regard (as I mentioned to another friend in Bkk last weekend). Cybele, they were meant to be friendly words from a friend as I considered you were a little upset. As I said, we look forward to more of your comments and references on meditation (a term which means many things to many people). Even if there are different opinions, i don't think there's been any suggestion that your comments have been offensive at any time. I think your reminders on kindness are also v.useful. Sarah P.S. Pls TRY to remember to TRIM posts.......thanks Cybele! 7158 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- Anders Honoré wrote: > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. I've been following your discussion with Kom and I think this is a very valid question! I think the reason we understand so little about nibbana conceptually is because there is so little understanding now of namas (mental phenomena) and rupas (physical phenomena that don't experience an object). Cessation of phenomena is not appealing to us now because we see life and the namas and rupas as being satisfactory and there is no understanding of the impermanence of these realities, however much we say everything is anicca and conceptually understand that nothing lasts. At this moment of lobha (attachment) is there any knowledge of unsatisfactoriness at all? Not at that moment. If awareness begins to be aware of the characteristic of lobha, it begins to be aware of lobha as an unwholesome reality that doesn't belong to anyone for an instant only. Awareness and understanding have to grow gradually to know many, many realities as they are as just namas and rupas until the first stage of insight arises which very clearly (and with no doubt at all) knows the difference between namas and rupas as they appear (not in theory). The higher stages of understanding the conditioned nature, the impermanence (and thus unsatisfactoriness) and the fearfulness of these realities come later. If we're honest with ourselves, are we really interested in giving up attachment now? Very seldom (except in theory again!). This is why it's a long and gradual path and why now we would rather have an idea of nibbana as 'eternal bliss' than as cessation of kilesa and parinibbana as cessation of the khandhas (aggregates of existence). > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > find the source if you want to)? Thanks, you provided the source in another post. In reality it is only (and has ever only been) the khandhas that exist - no Tathagata, no Anders or any other being in them. I think Kom has explained this. This is why we need some understanding of abhidhamma or of different realities in order to read the suttas with right understanding of the meaning. > Anders, I'm sending this off in my usual hurry. I haven't got your other post with the sutta extracts in front of me, but am happy to discuss these in detail if Kom hasn't clarified the points to your satisfaction (not that I'm likely to do any better!) Best wishes and my usual appreciation for your study and sincere interest in the dhamma. Sarah p.s In addition to the translations Jon mentioned, we also enjoy using B.Bodhi's translation of Maj Nik (1 vol) w/comm. notes (also Wisdom). Personally, I much prefer these to the PTS ones and really appreciate the notes. 7159 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:26pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Understanding Realities at Many Levels ----- Original Message ----- From: ppp Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Understanding Realities at Many Levels > Hi, Erick: > Basically we are not disagreeing each other. > I totally agree with you that one can find verious > (numerous) levels of the Dhamma in the Tipitaka, and > everybody can benefit it from reading any of > the suttas (to a certain extent). However, the point > I would like to emphasize is that when one, for instance, > reads the Maha-sati-patthana sutta LITERALLY and applies > it to one's practice, one would end up with treading the > totally wrong path. (And 99% of us in fact has done > the so-called (two-week) Vipassana medition, where we > had to slow down all our activies to catch seeming > realities = TOTALLY IDIOTIC PRACTICE.) > Unless one has a keen keen keen panna, one cannot > penerate the true meaning of what sati is just > by reading the sutta. You must agree with my point! > tadao Actually, the sutta also tells you to abandon the Five hindrances (and thus attain Jhana) before sitting (meaning it does have Samatha). That's probably why there ain't many who have attained non-return after seven days of it. They weren't sticking to the recipe. 7160 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:28pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy ----- Original Message ----- From: ppp Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy > Hi, Abhidammika: > Do you not think it would be much easier for Anders to > study Pali than to study Burmese Haven't thought of that, really. Thanks for pointing it out. >(At least she would > have more resources/helps). Haha, "she"? 7161 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:31pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath ----- Original Message ----- From: ppp Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath > Hi, Erick (and Kom): > Majority of the suttas start with "evam me suttam" (thus, by me, heard > (an impersonal passive)). It is 'generally' possible to date which Nakaayas > are older than the others or which groups of suttas may be older than > other sets of suttas. But I do not think that in any future we have a > scholar who can atually identify the suttas which are direct words of the > Buddha and those which are not. It may wise for us to take the whole Tipitaka > (and commentaries) as the precious aid for understanding the significance > of: sabba papassa akaranam Maybe I am being ignorant because I have never studied the Abhidhamma myself, but I would personally trust the sutta pitaka over the abhidhamma pitaka. 7162 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:41pm Subject: Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana SATIPATTHANA THE FOURFOLD FOCUS OF MINDFULNESS By Ajahn Brahmavamso ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- More has been said about the practice of Satipatthana than about any other meditation practice by Buddhist teachers of today... except by this monk! So in this Dhamma article I will keep up with the trend by presenting some practical observations on this most misunderstood of Lord Buddha's Teachings. Those of you who have been "sitting around" Buddhist Centres for a while have probably heard some teachers claim that the fourfold "Focus of Mindfulness" (my translation of "Satipatthana") is the "one and only way" to the goal of full Enlightenment! Although this is an impressive sales pitch for the teaching, it is neither a true translation of the original text nor consistent with what the Lord Buddha said elsewhere. The very phrase ("Ekayana Magga") which is mistranslated as "one and only way" occurs again in the l2th Sutta (discourse) of the Majjhima collection where it unmistakably means a "path with only one possible destination". Many different paths can share a common destination. In fact, the "one and only path" is the Lord Buddha's description, not of Satipatthana, but of the Noble Eightfold Path: "Of all Ways, the Noble Eightfold Path is the best. This is the only way, there is none other for the purity of insight" Dhammapada verses 273 and 274 (abridged) Thus, the "only way" to Enlightenment, as all Buddhists should know anyway, is the Noble Eightfold Path. The fourfold Focus of Mindfulness constitutes only a part of this Path, the 7th factor. Jhanas are the 8th factor and there is also Right View, Right Intention, Right Effort and the three factors of Right Virtue. Each of these eight factors are necessary to achieve the goal of full Enlightenment. lf any were redundant, then the Lord Buddha would have taught a 7-fold path, or a 6-fold path etc. So, in your practice of Buddhism, please keep in mind that all eight factors of the noble Eightfold Path should be cultivated as the "one and only way". Now the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness method as taught by the Lord Buddha, is a very advanced practice. So advanced that the Lord Buddha said that if anyone should develop them in the way He described for only seven days, then they would achieve full Enlightenment or the state of non-returner. Many meditators reading this may have gone on such a retreat for nine days or even more and not yet fulfilled this most lofty of the Lord Buddha's promises. Why not? Because, I suggest, you were not following the Lord Buddha's instructions. If you want to practise the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness in the way that the Lord Buddha said leads so rapidly to Enlightenment, then certain things are required before you begin. The essential preparations are in short, full cultivation of the other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. Or, as the Lord Budda said in the Anguttara collection ('Nines', Suttas 63 and 64), one should maintain the five Precepts (the longer the better), abandon the five Hindrances and then practise Satipatthana. These vital prerequisites are actually stated by the Lord Buddha in His two discourses on the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness, as "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam" (please forgive me quoting Pali. It is the only way I can make this important point). This phrase is usually translated as "having put away covetousness and grief for the world", or something similar. Such translations mean so little to meditators that they ignore this instruction altogether, and thereby miss the bus! In the time of the Lord Buddha, the monks, nuns and lay disciples would have understood the phrase to mean "after having abandoned the five Hindrances"! The authoritative commentaries to the two Satipatthana Suttas taught by the Lord Buddha both clearly state that "Abhijjha-Domanassam" (sorry for the Pali again!) refer precisely to the five Hindrances. Elsewhere in the recorded Teachings of the Lord Buddha, "Abhijjha" is a synonym for the first Hindrance, "Domanassam" is a synonym for the second Hindrance, and together they stand, in Pali idiom, as an abbreviation for all five. This then means that the five Hindrances must be abandoned first before beginning any of the Focus of Mindfulness practices. It is, in my not-so-humble opinion, precisely because meditators attempt to practise the Satipatthana method with some of the Hindrances still remaining that they achieve no great or lasting result. It is the function of Jhana practice, the ultimate factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, to abandon all of the five Hindrances long enough to gain BIG Insight. For example, in the 68th Sutta of the Majjhima collection ("Nalakapanna"), the Lord Buddha stated that for the meditator who does not attain to Jhana, the five Hindrances together with discontent and weariness invade the mind and remain. Only when one does attain to Jhana do the five Hindrances together with discontent and weariness not invade one's mind and remain the way the Lord Buddha said it is. Any meditator who has experienced the powerful Jhanas would know through that experience, and what happens after, what a mind without any Hindrances is truly like. The meditator who hasn't known Jhanas does not realise the many subtle forms Hindrances can take. They may think that the hindrances are abandoned but, the truth is, they just don't see them and so do not get great results in their meditation. This is why Samatha practice which cultivates Jhana is part of the Satipatthana teaching and why it is misinformation to call Satipatthana "pure Vipassana". Even my teacher, Ajahn Chah, said over and over again that Samatha and Vipassana, "calm and insight", go together and are inseparable as the two faces of a coin. Having patiently completed the necessary preparations, the meditator sustains their mindfulness on one of the four focuses: their own body, the pleasure and pain associated with each sense, the mind consciousness and, fourthly, the objects of mind. When the Hindrances are gone and one can sustain one's powerful and penetrating attention on these four objects, only then is it possible to realise that deep in our psyche, far deeper than the veil of intelligent thinking, we have been assuming a Self. We have been assuming that this body is "me" or "mine", that pleasure or pain has something to do with me, that the mind which looks on is our Soul or something close, and that the objects of mind such as thought or volition (the 'chooser') is a Self, me, or mine. In short, the purpose of the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness is to instruct one what to do when one has emerged from a Jhana, to uncover the deeply disguised delusion of a Soul and then see what the Lord Buddha saw, the Truth of Anatta. This is not an easy thing to do, but it can be done, and it can take only seven days. That is if one follows the Lord Buddha's instructions, follows them and takes no short cuts. Ajahn Brahm (From: Newsletter, July-October 1997, Buddhist Society of Western Australia, Perth, Australia) 7163 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:37pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:49 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana > As the state of mental quiescence (samatha) is approached, the breath > appears to become fainter and fainter, until it is hardly discernible. It is > at this stage that certain psychic phenomena appear, which may at first be > disconcerting. That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my body calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath because of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes extremely faint after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and hence my attention wanders. Anyone got any advice? 7164 From: Erik Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 6:33pm Subject: Re: Samatha-Vipassana --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cybele chiodi > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:49 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana > > As the state of mental quiescence (samatha) is approached, the breath > > appears to become fainter and fainter, until it is hardly discernible. It > is > > at this stage that certain psychic phenomena appear, which may at first be > > disconcerting. > > That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my body > calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath because > of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes extremely faint > after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and hence my > attention wanders. > > Anyone got any advice? After the instructions I received from the incredibly kind Ajarn at Wat Mahatat, Section 5 yesterday, yes. You may wish to carefully examine and test out in your own practice the other aspects of Meditation on the Body as found in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html): For starters, "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it." Of course it is even more beneficial to have a teacher who will be able explain this, to ensure the practice is properly tuned to one's accumulations. And those who have the incredible fortune to have enough Dhamma-theory AND reside nearby qualified teachers of applied meditation such as places like Wat Mahatat, Section 5, would be very wise, I would think, to go and ask for intruction in this excellent form of meditation taught by Lord Buddha directly in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. 7165 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even > > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana > > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. > > I've been following your discussion with Kom and I think this is a very valid > question! Thank you for joining in on the discussion. I think Kom and I could use some fresh perspective. > If we're honest with ourselves, are we really interested in giving up > attachment now? Very seldom (except in theory again!). This is why it's a long > and gradual path and why now we would rather have an idea of nibbana as > 'eternal bliss' than as cessation of kilesa and parinibbana as cessation of the > khandhas (aggregates of existence). As I see it, Parinibbana is very much the cessation of the kandhas. But don't you think there's a reason that the death of an Arahant is called Parinibbana, if not to pass into Nibbana (or become Nibbana, whatever)? > > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which > > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > > find the source if you want to)? > > Thanks, you provided the source in another post. In reality it is only (and has > ever only been) the khandhas that exist - no Tathagata, no Anders or any other > being in them. I think Kom has explained this. This is why we need some > understanding of abhidhamma or of different realities in order to read the > suttas with right understanding of the meaning. Hmm, as I've said before, I am biased in my reading of the Sutta Pitaka, in the sense that I also draw from Mahayana, but what I'm trying to say is not new in Theravada either. Basically, I'm just trying to say that there's a True Mind (to use a Mahayana term) as opposed to the conditioned Samasaric mind of the kandhas and that mind *is* Nibbana, that mind is unconditioned. You can call it self or not, but I would say that there is still something there. There's a sutta which says: "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is defiled by incoming defilements. "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is free'd from incoming defilements." That seems to be a mind pretty much unconditioned conditioned factors, as it retains its luminousity in spite of conditioned circumstances (and this pretty much accords with the Tathagatagarbha doctrine: That Nirvana is always present in us, Regardless of it is realised or not). I thought it was pretty much settled with this quote: "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas (and so on through a list of the various levels of godhood to) the allness of the All." (M 49) Which pretty much spells Nibbana, but Kom pointed out that the translation as this being consciousness was dubious, although I get the impression that this was primarily because Nibbana as consciousness like this is mentioned very few places in the Pali Canon (correct me if I'm wrong here, Kom). But as I said, I'm not the first to say something like this. Quote Ajahn Chah: "But really this mind of ours is already unmoving and peaceful... really peaceful! Just like a leaf which is still as long as no wind blows. If a wind comes up the leaf flutters. The fluttering is due to the wind -- the "fluttering" is due to those sense impressions; the mind follows them. If it doesn't follow them, it doesn't "flutter." If we know fully the true nature of sense impressions we will be unmoved. Our practice is simply to see the Original Mind. So we must train the mind to know those sense impressions, and not get lost in them. To make it peaceful. Just this is the aim of all this difficult practice we put ourselves through. " ........................... "This Nature is not born, it does not age nor sicken. This Nature does not die. This Nature is neither happy nor sad, neither big nor small, heavy nor light; neither short nor long, black nor white. There's nothing you can compare it to. No convention can reach it. This is why we say Nirvana has no colour. All colors are merely conventions. The state which is beyond the world is beyond the reach of worldly conventions." His own teacher Ajahn Mun makes an even clearer statement in his "Ballad of Liberation from the Kandhas": Once we see through inconstancy, the mind-source stops creating issues. All that remains is the primal mind, true & unchanging. Knowing the mind-source brings release from all worry & error. If you go out to the mind-ends, you're immediately wrong. A final passage: Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness, Vahuna. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form... feeling... perception... processes... consciousness... birth... aging... death... stress*... defilement, he dwells with unrestricted awareness. Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81) What he is saying here, is that when totally freed (unbound), even from consciousness, there is still this this "unrestricted awareness" left. > Anders, I'm sending this off in my usual hurry. I haven't got your other post > with the sutta extracts in front of me, but am happy to discuss these in detail > if Kom hasn't clarified the points to your satisfaction (not that I'm likely to > do any better!) Haha, go ahead and give it your best shot! > Best wishes and my usual appreciation for your study and sincere interest in > the dhamma. Thank you. > p.s In addition to the translations Jon mentioned, we also enjoy using > B.Bodhi's translation of Maj Nik (1 vol) w/comm. notes (also Wisdom). > Personally, I much prefer these to the PTS ones and really appreciate the notes. Yes, I wish I had them myself. But feel free to supplement with them. 7166 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 7:50pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 9:36 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation >I am requesting that you explain the Sutta (about the tathagatha not >having ceased after the Buddha's death) using Robert's or my point of >view to the best of your ability (we have discussed this quite a bit, I think >you probably have learned a point or two) as if you are explaining to a >third party why Robert and I have such views. Hmm, as I see it, aren't you saying that there reason that the views of the Tathatgata living on after death and not living on after death is because there never was a Tathagata in the first place, that it was all illusionary? 7167 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 7:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Dear Erik, Hope you're having more useful discussions/debates in Bkk and lot of sleep to recover!! it's really great to hear what you've been discussing....pls keep this up! Thanks for your notes back on the debate style....I now understand more about 'challenger' and 'defender' roles......How about 'counter-challenge'? --- Erik wrote: > > Again, I was hoping someone here might be able to provide us all with > a CANONICAL reference we can ALL agree on as being the spoken words > of the historical Siddhartha Gotama, and for the sake of this > specific discussion I do no accept the canonicity of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. In other words, I will ONLY accept what is reputed to have > been DIRECTLY spoken and heard (as in the Evam me suttam) sense, as > Lord Buddha's DIRECT instruction to his disciples on this point. > Here, you were asking for a sutta reference in which the Buddha says anapanasati is too difficult for most, or something like that. First, may I ask you for a sutta reference in which the Buddha says it isn't too difficult for most? Also may I have a sutta reference in which the Buddha suggests any part of the path, or for that matter the development of any kind of kusala isn't difficult? Why isn't anapanasati encouraged for all? As I was browsing through MN, I was noticing in how few suttas there is any reference to it. Can you give me, btw, any sutta references where laypeople realise jhanas with anapanasati? Do you have any sutta references in which the Buddha says that those who haven't already realised this particular kind of jhana practice should do so in order to develop vipassana? Is there any sutta reference where the Buddha says it isn't essential to understand the difference between moments of kusala citta (wholesome consciousness) and akusala (unwholesome consciousness) from the very beginning of samatha development? Erik, for many of us here (Kom and myself included), without studying the commentaries and abhidhamma (whether from the book or from a teacher), it's really impossible to comprehend the true meaning of many suttas, so for our purposes here, I don't think we agree to ignore them for any discussion! I'd like to quote from a post of Mike's (Mike, hope you don't mind;-): ***************************************************** Mike: For nearly thirty years I've wandered around in various schools of Buddhism, the last ten or so in the Theravada. I was very glad when this meandering led me to the sutta-pitaka. I bought the PTS edition and read all of it, some more than once or even twice. Why I appreciate having had the great good fortune of discovering this group (and with it abhidhamma): MANY ideas I had developed individually, intellectually and intuitively and with the help of others, good monks among them, were simply mistaken. So much was clarified in such a short time! And all of it from the same suttas I'd read and contemplated and embraced. Maybe, if I'd had the time, I would've figured out the inconsistencies in my own understanding eventually, but I don't think so. The way this information has been carefully gleaned from the suttas and laid out, cross-referenced and so on, is incredibly helpful. So, from my point of view, why re-invent the eight-spoked wheel? I can always measure my own intuition and reasoning against the abhidhamma and the suttas and frankly, it's always the former, not the suttas or the abhidhamma (which always agree), that come up short. (end quote) ************************************************************ I'd also like to remind you of the excellent sutta which Rob posted on the subject of the complexity of the Teachings: ************************************************************ Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation The Peg --------------------------------------------- Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1] "In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering. "In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- will come about. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." The commentary notes that this means deep teachings such as those dealing with emptiness(sunnatapatisamyutta), explaining mere phenomena devoid of a being (sattasunnata-dhammamattam eva pakasaka) ************************************************************* Best wishes as always, Erik. Sarah p.s Finally, one more counter-challenge!!;-)) You wrote: >(p.s. Sarah, .....are the expressions of a bit of levity, lightness, >and humor and the Dhamma mutually exclusive? :) :) :). Give me the Sutta reference first! 7168 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 8:09pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath > Finally, one more counter-challenge!!;-)) > > You wrote: > >(p.s. Sarah, .....are the expressions of a bit of levity, lightness, > >and humor and the Dhamma mutually exclusive? :) :) :). > > Give me the Sutta reference first! Hey, I wanna know too! I'm also Scandinavian, you know :-) :-) 7169 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 8:32pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > Hmm, as I see it, aren't you saying that there reason that the views of the > Tathatgata living on after death and not living on after death is because= > there never was a Tathagata in the first place, that it was all illusiona= ry? Thank you for explaining the (not yours) view point. Why do we say the tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What doesn't exist? kom 7170 From: Erik Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: Tusinde tak igen! Jeg er nok særlig indtrykt! Hvor kommer du fra? (Min mor, mor-mor og mor-far er aller fra Odense... og tilgive min forfærdelig Dansk--jeg har glemmt næsten all, og behøver mere anvende! ;) I think in Pali that might go something like "SADHU! SADHU! SADHU!" 7171 From: Anders Honoré Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 11:52pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:01 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > Tusinde tak igen! Jeg er nok særlig indtrykt! Hvor kommer du fra? Jeg er født og opvokset i Helsingør (rent faktisk Espergærde, en lille naboby som jeg ikke tror du kender). Jeg spekulerede på om du nu var dansk, da du nævnte at du var skandinavisk..... >(Min mor, mor-mor og mor-far er aller fra Odense... og tilgive min >forfærdelig Dansk--jeg har glemmt næsten all, og behøver >mere anvende! ;) Jeg har det efterhånden sådan at jeg foretrækker at tænke på engelsk fordi ordforrådet er meget bredere på det sprog, og tankesporene kommer mere naturligt. Pudsigt.... > I think in Pali that might go something like "SADHU! SADHU! SADHU!" Glad you liked my post :-) Am I the only one who thinks it strange that the Theravada (or at least as it is represented here) and Mahayana view of Nibbana could be so fundamentally different? PS. Vi må nok hellere holde os til det engelske fremover, af hensyn til de andre her i dsg.... 7172 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 11:58pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao How are you? The translations in my message refer to those in English. So, Anders would not need to worry about learning Pali or Burmese. Having said that, the Chatthasangiti Tipitaka Burmese Translations do exist. And these translations are also the results of collective literary minds. They are as terse and clear-cut as the original Pali. With regards Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Abhidammika: > Do you not think it would be much easier for Anders to > study Pali than to study Burmese (At least she would > have more resources/helps). > tadao > P.S. Thank you very much for the information on > the presence of such a translation in Burmese. > (As my next language to learn, I have to think about > Burmese (which belongs to the Tibeto-Burman language family, > which, in turn, is a subgroup of the Sino-Tibetan language > family.) 7173 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 0:05am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Cybele How are you? Thank you for your generous description of Burmese language. With regards Suan --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Tadao > > >P.S. Thank you very much for the information on > >the presence of such a translation in Burmese. > >(As my next language to learn, I have to think about > >Burmese (which belongs to the Tibeto-Burman language family, > >which, in turn, is a subgroup of the Sino-Tibetan language > >family.) > > > > I thought that would be extremely skilful and most beneficial if all of us > could manage to learn the language of kindness to communicate with each > other. > > Metta > > Cybele > 7174 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 0:12am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Anders Honore How are you? If you do not have an easy access to a Myanmar Embassy, please try the following link: http://www.myanmarbook.com/ They might be able to get them for you. With regards Suan --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <> > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:31 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try > Myanmar Embassy > >Dear Anders Honoré > >How are you? > > Quite well, thank you. The same goes for you I hope? > > >If you like the idea of reading translations done by the > >collective group of intellectuals made up of experts in > >languages, and experts in Dhamma, there are such translations in > >Myanmar. > > >Translations are the final results of consultations among different > >experts made up of both monks and laypeople before writing down a > >single word. They also come with explanations of words or sticky > >points as notes right after the paragraphs in which those words occur. > > >Sound good? Where to get them? The Myanmar embassy in your city or > >nearest to your city could help you out. > > It actually sounds very interesting. I'm not sure if there's a Myanmar > embassy to be found in Denmark though..... Could there be an alternative way > of getting them? 7175 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 0:15am Subject: Re: Jhanas Are Within Our Reach: Correction of Citation Dear Dhamma friends I made a citation mistake in my message 7134. Could you please change the Pali "kamesu vivicceva" into "vivicceva kamehi". Sorry about this mistake. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Suan Lu Zaw wrote: > > > > > Dear Dhammastudy Friends > > The following message is my answers to Sakula's questions on > Jhana on dhamma-list (message 22041). > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dear Sakula > > How are you? > > The answer is Yes to your question: > > " is it important to know that one is in the first or second (or > whatever) Jhana and if so why?" > > Reason? A simple reason is that one thing leads to another. As you > might have read this phenomenon in Visuddhimagga, when we become > quite skillful in a practice, we kind of get bored! We want to try > out something slightly different and difficult, don't we? > > Mental cultivation practices are very addictive (the only case of > good addiction?) because they are our very minds in progress, > literally. Once you are hooked, you want to go further and further. > So if you ever get to the stage of pre-jhanic concentration (upaca > samadhi), you won't stop at there. You would go for the First Jhana > in due course. And you know what you don't like at the present level, > and you would make every effort to get rid of it or them. As a > result, you would end up at the next higher level of jhana. > > You also wrote: > > "Having asked that let me also add that I do not think (perhaps hope) > that Jhana practice is not out of reach for anyone with diligent > persistence and a very good teacher as guide. What do you think?" > > I agree with you. The most important keyword to remember to make > jhana within our reach is the phrase ".. only by keeping away from > sensuous preoccupations (kamesu vivicceva)". Once you understand this > keyword and like the idea of it, you are on your way to jhana. > Nothing can stop you. Jhana is within reach of anyone who could turn > their back on sensuous preoccupations. As simple as that (in theory, > of course)! > > Hope this message answered your questions. > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ 7176 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 8:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana Hi, Anders - In a message dated 8/5/01 5:53:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cybele chiodi writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cybele chiodi > > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:49 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana > > As the state of mental quiescence (samatha) is approached, the breath > > appears to become fainter and fainter, until it is hardly discernible. It > is > > at this stage that certain psychic phenomena appear, which may at first be > > disconcerting. > > That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my body > calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath because > of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes extremely faint > after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and hence my > attention wanders. > > Anyone got any advice? > > ============================== The fact that the breath becomes faint and subtle *is* a problem, but also a great opportunity. As the breath sensation fades, there must be a corresponding strengthening of energy, mindfulness, and concentration (directed by will) in order to "stay in touch", and this will take the mind to a deeper and stronger levels. This becomes easier to carry out the longer and more consistently one practices. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7177 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:07am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana > Hi, Anders - > > That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my body > > calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath because > > of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes extremely faint > > after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and hence my > > attention wanders. > > > > Anyone got any advice? > ============================== > The fact that the breath becomes faint and subtle *is* a problem, but > also a great opportunity. As the breath sensation fades, there must be a > corresponding strengthening of energy, mindfulness, and concentration > (directed by will) in order to "stay in touch", and this will take the mind > to a deeper and stronger levels. This becomes easier to carry out the longer > and more consistently one practices. Wow, thanks a lot. Just that change of perspective is something I find quite illuminating. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) That part is readily understandable, but how much do you make of the Sutra in its entirety? 7178 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:07am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation >Thank you for explaining the (not yours) view point. Why do we say the tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What doesn't exist? Nibbana? 7179 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:09am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:12 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy >Dear Anders Honore >If you do not have an easy access to a Myanmar Embassy, >please try the following link: > >http://www.myanmarbook.com/ > >They might be able to get them for you. Thank you. I am as yet undecided as to which version I'll go for.... 7180 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:10am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 5:58 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy > Dear Tadao > > How are you? > > The translations in my message refer to those in English. > So, Anders would not need to worry about learning Pali or Burmese. > > Having said that, the Chatthasangiti Tipitaka Burmese Translations > do exist. And these translations are also the results of collective > literary minds. They are as terse and clear-cut as the original Pali. Do you know how much time was spent translating from Pali to Burmese? 7181 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:13am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana > Anyone got any advice? >After the instructions I received from the incredibly kind Ajarn at >Wat Mahatat, Section 5 yesterday, yes. You may wish to carefully >examine and test out in your own practice the other aspects of >Meditation on the Body as found in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html): For starters, >"Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. >When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he >discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is >lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns >it." Yeah, I do that in my daily life. But it doesn't help my seated practise much in terms of one-pointedness (at least not directly - I'm sure it's working wonders indirectly) >Of course it is even more beneficial to have a teacher who will be >able explain this, to ensure the practice is properly tuned to one's >accumulations. And those who have the incredible fortune to have >enough Dhamma-theory AND reside nearby qualified teachers of applied >meditation such as places like Wat Mahatat, Section 5, would be very >wise, I would think, to go and ask for intruction in this excellent >form of meditation taught by Lord Buddha directly in the Four >Foundations of Mindfulness. Unfortunately, there are no monasteries anywhere near where I live. 7182 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana Dear Erik I am filled up with mudita for your appreciation because that is basically my practice. And I used to frequent Wat Mahathat as well because they have the instructions in English; please go to their library Erik; they do translations from the texts and they have an excellent material to consult - if they lived up their own standards. I would recommend you to visist Wat Bornovives as well. There are two western monks living there, one English, one American and they will be pleased if you wish to talk about Dhamma with them. Really content of your appreciation: if you are really interested I have plenty of material on the 'idiotic practice of Vipassana' and I would send it off line to you. Anumodana in your efforts Love Cybele >> >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > >Cybele, I just wanted to say SADHU! SADHU! SADHU! for posting that >EXCELLENT Dhamma-teaching! > >I am saving up a post in this very vein regarding a visit to Wat >Mahatat Section 5 yesterday. I will be returning there again and >again for further instruction in 100% dead-on Satipatthana >meditation, is all I will say at this point! :) :) :) > >(p.s. Sarah, regarding your moderator's comments to the Scandinavian >contingent here: are the expressions of a bit of levity, lightness, >and humor and the Dhamma mutually exclusive? :) :) :). > > > 7183 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:34am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders Hi Anders > > > As the state of mental quiescence (samatha) is approached, the breath > > appears to become fainter and fainter, until it is hardly discernible. >It >is > > at this stage that certain psychic phenomena appear, which may at first >be > > disconcerting. > >That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my body >calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath >because >of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes extremely faint >after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and hence my >attention wanders. > >Anyone got any advice? I would advise you to shift from the nostrils or upperlip to the abdominal movement and be aware also of the sensation of body-contact with the cushion or the floor. This should give you enough support to focus your attention. However if you are experiencing any kind of visual phenomena (nimittas)it's normal slipping in a kind of trance, that's why I use the Four Foundations of Mindfulness rather than Anapanasati in my meditation. Widening the field of my attention promotes the sense of being present inside many realities without wandering, only shifting the attention on a different subject. Love Cybele 7184 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:45am Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Thanks for your notes back on the debate style....I now understand > more about 'challenger' and 'defender' roles......How about > 'counter-challenge'? As the boxing announcer Michael Buffer might intone... "Let's get ready to RUUUUMBUUUUUUULE!!!! TWEEELVE rounds (beginning with avijja, sankahara, etc...) in the SUPRA-MIDDLE-WAY DIVISION!!! "First, in the Theravada corner, wearing the saffron blouse, the challenger, Sarah; and in the Tibetan corner, wearing the burgundy shirt with the Wheel of Law and the Dorje, the defender, Erik..." > --- Erik wrote: > > > > Again, I was hoping someone here might be able to provide us all with > > a CANONICAL reference we can ALL agree on as being the spoken words > > of the historical Siddhartha Gotama, and for the sake of this > > specific discussion I do no accept the canonicity of the Abhidhamma > > Pitaka. In other words, I will ONLY accept what is reputed to have > > been DIRECTLY spoken and heard (as in the Evam me suttam) sense, as > > Lord Buddha's DIRECT instruction to his disciples on this point. > > > Here, you were asking for a sutta reference in which the Buddha says > anapanasati is too difficult for most, or something like that. > > First, may I ask you for a sutta reference in which the Buddha says it isn't > too difficult for most? Ma drup! (is not established!). Meaning, the question's invalid, given the original challenge was to provide the citation from the Suttas for the statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the rarest of disciples," which I reject in this debate as NOT being established as what the Buddha actually said anyplace in the Suttas. In other words, if you make the claim, you have to back it with either air-tight reasoning OR cite the direct words of the Buddha (or accepted references ALL participants agree are correct Dharma, which by implication would all be "word of the Buddha" if there is such agreement). So Sarah, you can't turn the tables here. You have to defend THAT assertion first, since "you" (or whomever) made this positive assertion. Tibetan-style Buddhist logic, Prasanga, accepts the ONLY negation to establish valid reasoning, meaning you can use logic ONLY to deny logically falsifiable views, not to establish new views-- which just leads to another wilderness and thicket of conceptual elaborations--NOT the point, in other words! This is a VERY important point to keep firmly in mind about the purpose of this style of debate. Again, Prasanga as a technique arose SOLELY as a means to terminating wrong views and rejects, for example, the so-called "Svatantrika" approach of "autonomous syllogisms"--meaning, Prasanga rejects ANY positivistic reasoning used to establish a thesis, because such a thesis will ALWAYS be founded upon some sort of supposition or view (unless it is the direct word of the Buddha and all agree on the canonicity of the reference). The point of Prasanga is to terminate wrong views decisively by demonstrating how such views entail absurd consequences. It is explicitly NOT used to create yet more conceptual elaborations-- papanca--which would entirely defeat the point of it all! :) It is all about direct knowing. According to Master Dharmakirti, "Direct knowledge here means neither mental construction nor illusion." > Why isn't anapanasati encouraged for all? As I was browsing through MN, I was > noticing in how few suttas there is any reference to it. You mean, like the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta? I'm not saying it's absolutely necessary; what I did say was that no one has been able to show me ANY Suttas where the Buddha said it's "too difficult" a practice for "most" of his disciples. I mean, crikey, the Buddha BEGINS the teaching on mindfulness with mindfulness of the breath! Do you suppose he begins with mindfulness of the breath because it's the hardest practice of them all? That just doesn't seem all that sensible for a doctor interested in in helping people terminate their suffering in the quickest possible way. Why would he begin with something only the rarest of his disciples could work with in his Great Discourse on Mindfulness, which, as we all agree, is an essential factor for awakening? "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication." That seems pretty clear to me. Remove "monk" and insert "21st Century layperson living in NYC," for example (across from a noisy piano bar in the noisiest part of Greenwich Village), because it works equally well for those who have never donned any robes who live in the so- called "real world." Trust me. > Can you give me, btw, any sutta references where laypeople realise jhanas with > anapanasati? I can give you Erik. Does that suffice? It really isn't that big a deal to sit down cross-legged and cultivate concentration on the breath (which conveniently also happens to help with cultivating tranquility), once you've received appropriate instructions on it from a teacher who has been trained in and mastered this form of meditation. And such teachers certainly exist. > Do you have any sutta references in which the Buddha says that those who > haven't already realised this particular kind of jhana practice should do so in > order to develop vipassana? I think there have been numerous suttas detailing that detail how Right Concentration entails cultivating concentration to the point of the jhanas, that in Right Concentration includes the jhanas (Magga- Vibhanga Sutta again). Speaking from experience, I can say that for these accumulations that vipassana would have been nearly impossible without such directed effort and the tranquility provided by samatha meditation as a foundation. Do you have any experience that runs counter to this you would feel comfortable sharing? I would also be most interested in hearing what, specifically, is your present practice, and how it has led you to Right Mindfulness, and in particular, how your practice of Right Mindfulness has helped you establish Right Concentration to the degree you can sustain concentration on your favorite object of meditation for a period of longer than one second, ten seconds, twenty seconds, thirty seconds, one minute, etc. etc. Because in the final analysis there is either Right Mindfulness or there is wrong mindfulness. There is Right concentration or there is wrong concentration. Based on your present practice, can you honestly say that it has assisted you to establish either of these to the degree the conditions for insight have arisen at any of the levels of insight- knowledge? There is no need to reply; only to consider this VERY carefully. > Is there any sutta reference where the Buddha says it isn't essential to > understand the difference between moments of kusala citta (wholesome > consciousness) and akusala (unwholesome consciousness) from the very beginning > of samatha development? I am not familiar with any suttas where the Buddha talks about kusala citta and akusala citta. I am familiar with suttas where the Buddha praises skillful activity and criticizes unskillful activity, though. Rather than talk about abstract notions like cittas (and until you have had DIRECT experience of a citta, please don't come back to me with this "paramattha dhammas" business--cittas are WAY too abstract an concept before such direct experience of them; who but a Buddha or nearly a Buddha directly discern the billionth of a second of awareness each citta represents? I think perhaps it would help to simplify things a bit. Perhaps a LOT. For example, when I requested instruction yesterday at Wat mahatat, Section 5, my extremely kind (he simply radiated metta) and amazing Ajarn in Mindfulness of the Body using eating as an example, there was no mention of "cittas" or "cetasikas." There was mention of observing: "lifting lifting lifting" or "touching touching touching" or "tasting tasting tasting." He said that Right Mindfulness in this particular practice would mean eating a dinner should take two hours, according to HIS teacher. When I tried to diligently apply this last evening (how could I NOT apply these instructions with my VERY best efforts given these precious teachings I was given, which I had actively sought last time I was here and failed to connect with at the time?), difficult as it was, I came to see within 1 hour and forty-five minutes into my dinner (when I had to stop after getting only halfway through) that he was not bullshitting on this method of meditation. Not at all. It does indeed lead to Right Mindfulness when applied with diligent effort. And I honestly find this particular method more difficult for these accumulations than watching the breath, beacuse you're moving, not sitting still. Perhaps that's just because I'm a beginner at this form of meditation, concentrating while moving like this. Nevertheless, this teaching was MOST instructive, and bore fruits in the form of clearly and discernibly increased mindfulness in under a couple of hours (not terribly strong sati for this beginner, mind you, but strong enough to notice the difference)! How about your practice? Has it worked for you in a similar fashion? If so, I heartily encourage and applaud your diligence and efforts. If not, this may be something for serious consideration. > Erik, for many of us here (Kom and myself included), without studying the > commentaries and abhidhamma (whether from the book or from a teacher), it's > really impossible to comprehend the true meaning of many suttas, so for our > purposes here, I don't think we agree to ignore them for any discussion! It IS possible to comprehend the meaning of the Suttas if you're pointed in the right direction by those who have terminated their misunderstanding of the Suttas, however. That is, if you are willing to pay careful attention to their advice. If not, there's always samsara. 7185 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana Erik I am really delighted! I have been practicing Vipassana since my first contact with Theravada Buddhism and for me it was a kind of revelation after years of Zen. I am really happy that a dear friend of mine, is so keen in exploring this insight meditation. Indeed when with Robert or Kom we were discussing meditation I would be surprised on their idea of the practice as it was radically different from my experience with Vipassana. But is something that you have to experience rather than conceptualize and I am fully gratified that a brain cruncher like you is enthusiastic of it. Great! Love Cybele > >After the instructions I received from the incredibly kind Ajarn at >Wat Mahatat, Section 5 yesterday, yes. You may wish to carefully >examine and test out in your own practice the other aspects of >Meditation on the Body as found in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta: > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html): > >For starters, > >"Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. >When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he >discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is >lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns >it." > >Of course it is even more beneficial to have a teacher who will be >able explain this, to ensure the practice is properly tuned to one's >accumulations. And those who have the incredible fortune to have >enough Dhamma-theory AND reside nearby qualified teachers of applied >meditation such as places like Wat Mahatat, Section 5, would be very >wise, I would think, to go and ask for intruction in this excellent >form of meditation taught by Lord Buddha directly in the Four >Foundations of Mindfulness. > > 7186 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:49am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > Glad you liked my post :-) Am I the only one who thinks it strange that the > Theravada (or at least as it is represented here) and Mahayana view of > Nibbana could be so fundamentally different? I see no difference whatsoever. I see only strategic pedagogy for differing accumulations. For some the "mind is luminous" and for others, there is only anatta. These are mere rafts; they can never convey direct knowledge of Nibbana, which is entirely beyond the scope of concepts like "mind" or "not mind" and of COURSE is NOT annihilation! 7187 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Good gracious My eyes are whirling with all this consonants clashing together. I bet that both of you can learn Pali after this stuff any language is 'a piece of cake'.... :-) Love Cybele >> >Tusinde tak igen! Jeg er nok særlig indtrykt! Hvor kommer du fra? >(Min mor, mor-mor og mor-far er aller fra Odense... og tilgive min >forfærdelig Dansk--jeg har glemmt næsten all, og behøver >mere >anvende! ;) > >I think in Pali that might go something like "SADHU! SADHU! SADHU!" > 7188 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Suan > >Dear Cybele > >How are you? > >Thank you for your generous description of Burmese language. Why, do you reckon that only Burmese language can be 'kind'? Loving kindness is a universal language and can fits any ethnology, grammar and phonetics - no discrimination. Actually I have been in Burma and for the sake of truth, they are gentle people, obviously I exclude the government from my remark. Regards Metta Cybele >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > > > Dear Tadao > > > > >P.S. Thank you very much for the information on > > >the presence of such a translation in Burmese. > > >(As my next language to learn, I have to think about > > >Burmese (which belongs to the Tibeto-Burman language family, > > >which, in turn, is a subgroup of the Sino-Tibetan language > > >family.) > > > > > > > I thought that would be extremely skilful and most beneficial if >all of us > > could manage to learn the language of kindness to communicate with >each > > other. > > > > Metta > > > > Cybele 7189 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:29am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders Dear Anders >For starters, > > >"Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. > >When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he > >discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is > >lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns > >it." > >Yeah, I do that in my daily life. But it doesn't help my seated practise >much in terms of one-pointedness (at least not directly - I'm sure it's >working wonders indirectly) Anders, you have to describe realistically your practice and we could help you if you are indeed interested in commiting on the practice. I have done so many retreats in my life that I finished to assist the teachers, translating dhamma-talks and being present at all personal interviews. Then you have to rely on what the 'convents pass' so to speak. If you trust a Brazilian wild woman teaching you Vipassana here I am. Sure you have posture problems Anders that's why your attention is not focussed. If you remind breath and touching most surely with a good deal of training (therefore LAZYNESS is not contemplated) you can remain 'down to earth' and in the present moment. The position of your back must be upright to improve alertness. If your legs are not enough elastic for a balanced half lotus you must shift to 'easy posture', cross legged but not overimposing one leg. Use a cushion to sustain you back and incline you forward - your knees will touch the floor and give you a good equilibrium and stability. Meditation is a very refined art Anders and you cannot practice without a solid inner attitude. For example use the muscular and joints pain to keep you present to the moment. Your mind doesn't wanders if you are conscious of pain - observe it and I bet it will grab your attention. But do not cling to mortification or a kind of challenge with yourself. > >Of course it is even more beneficial to have a teacher who will be > >able explain this, to ensure the practice is properly tuned to one's > >accumulations. And those who have the incredible fortune to have > >enough Dhamma-theory AND reside nearby qualified teachers of applied > >meditation such as places like Wat Mahatat, Section 5, would be very > >wise, I would think, to go and ask for intruction in this excellent > >form of meditation taught by Lord Buddha directly in the Four > >Foundations of Mindfulness. > >Unfortunately, there are no monasteries anywhere near where I live. > But you do have us if you trust our help. This is subject I can feel quite confident about mister viking. ;-) Let's say for my services I would request a vacation in Scandinavia guest of your mum. Is she a good cooker? :-)))) love Cybele 7190 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:44am Subject: Mindfulness and Insight - Sati and Vipassana Dear group Thought you could apprecaite this simple text by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana extrated from 'Mindfulness in plain English'. It's very basic, essential, minimalist nonetheless insightful. >Mindfulness (Sati) and Insight (Vipassana) Meditation > >Mindfulness is the center of Vipassana Meditation and the key to the whole >process. it is both the goal of this meditation and the means to that end. >You reach Mindfulness by being ever more mindful. One other Pali word that >is translated into English as Mindfulness is Appamada, which means >non-negligence or an absence of madness. One who attends constantly to what >is really going on in one's mind achieves the state of ultimate sanity. > >The Pali term Sati also bears the connotation of remembering. It is not >memory in the sense of ideas and pictures from the past, but rather clear, >direct, wordless knowing of what is and what is not, of what is correct and >what is incorrect, of what we are doing and how we should go about it. >Mindfulness reminds the meditator to apply his attention to the proper >object at the proper time and to exert precisely the amount of energy >needed to do the job. When this energy is properly applied, the meditator >stays constantly in a state of calm and alertness. As long as this >condition is maintained, those mind-states call 'hindrances' or 'psychic >irritants' cannot arise - there is no greed, no hatred, no lust or >laziness. But we all are human and we do err. Most of us are very human and >we err repeatedly. Despite honest effort, the meditator lets his >Mindfulness slip now and then and he finds himself stuck in some >regrettable, but normal, human failure. It is Mindfulness that notices that >change. And it is Mindfulness that reminds him to apply the energy required >to pull himself out. These slips happen over and over, but their frequency >decreases with practice. Once Mindfulness has pushed these mental >defilements aside, more wholesome states of mind can take their place. >Hatred makes way for loving kindness, lust is replaced by detachment. It is >Mindfulness which notices this change, too, and which reminds the Vipassana >meditator to maintain that extra little mental sharpness needed to keep >these more desirable states of mind. mindfulness makes possible the growth >of wisdom and compassion. Without Mindfulness they cannot develop to full >maturity. > >Deeply buried in the mind, there lies a mental mechanism which accepts what >the mind perceives as beautiful and pleasant experiences and rejects those >experiences which are perceived as ugly and painful. This mechanism gives >rise to those states of mind which we are training ourselves to avoid - >things like greed, lust, hatred, aversion, and jealousy. We choose to avoid >these hindrances, not because they are evil in the normal sense of the >word, but because they are compulsive; because they take the mind over and >capture the attention completely; because they keep going round and round >in tight little circles of thought; and because they seal us off from >living reality. > >These hindrances cannot arise when Mindfulness is present. Mindfulness is >attention to present time reality, and therefore, directly antithetical to >the dazed state of mind which characterizes impediments. As meditators, it >is only when we let our Mindfulness slip that the deep mechanisms of our >mind take over - grasping, clinging and rejecting. Then resistance emerges >and obscures our awareness. We do not notice that the change is taking >place - we are too busy with a thought of revenge, or greed, whatever it >may be. While an untrained person will continue in this state indefinitely, >a trained meditator will soon realize what is happening. It is Mindfulness >that notices the change. It is Mindfulness that remembers the training >received and that focuses our attention so that the confusion fades away. >And it is Mindfulness that then attempts to maintain itself indefinitely so >that the resistance cannot arise again. Thus, Mindfulness is the specific >antidote for hindrances. It is both the cure and the preventive measure. > >Fully developed Mindfulness is a state of total non-attachment and utter >absence of clinging to anything in the world. If we can maintain this >state, no other means or device is needed to keep ourselves free of >obstructions, to achieve liberation from our human weaknesses. Mindfulness >is non-superficial awareness. It sees things deeply, down below the level >of concepts and opinions. This sort of deep observation leads to total >certainty, and complete absence of confusion. It manifests itself primarily >as a constant and unwavering attention which never flags and never turns >away. > >This pure and unstained investigative awareness not only holds mental >hindrances at bay, it lays bare their very mechanism and destroys them. >Mindfulness neutralizes defilements in the mind. The result is a mind which >remains unstained and invulnerable, completely unaffected by the ups and >downs of life. > > > >Metta >Cybele > 7191 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 3:22am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > Anders, you have to describe realistically your practice and we could help > you if you are indeed interested in commiting on the practice. Daily practise or what? Non-dwelling, as taught in the Diamond Sutra. My preferred meditation subjects (when sitting that is) are Metta and non-dwelling. I shift between the two depending on my moods (plus, I've found that in the past few weeks my desire to sit has increased again. It really went down the around winter). > I have done so many retreats in my life that I finished to assist the > teachers, translating dhamma-talks and being present at all personal > interviews. You may have got a head start in years, but you know I'll beat you to the finish line ;-) > Then you have to rely on what the 'convents pass' so to speak. > If you trust a Brazilian wild woman teaching you Vipassana here I am. uhhhh........... > Sure you have posture problems Anders that's why your attention is not > focussed. I'm telling you, I really don't. I used to, of course. My bag wasn't properly upright, it hurt to have it upright, my legs were killing me, I'd break into a sweat and all, but in half-lotus, it's virtually perfect. I do a thorough check of my posture initially and just before moving to get up. Nothing to point fingers at there. My legs are perfectly assembled in half-lotus without pain. My back becomes naturally and effortlessly erect and I don't sway. I don't think about my posture either anymore, because it doesn't bother me. The only time I ever feel any pain is when I come out of the half-lotus (of course, in full lotus I can hardly walk afterwards). > If you remind breath and touching most surely with a good deal of training > (therefore LAZYNESS is not contemplated) you can remain 'down to earth' and > in the present moment. > The position of your back must be upright to improve alertness. Perfectly upright! > If your legs are not enough elastic for a balanced half lotus you must shift > to 'easy posture', cross legged but not overimposing one leg. I used to be able to sit in full lotus with only minor pains, but you really need to keep it up consistently to get that. But half-lotus is like a second nature to me. It feels so natural. It funny, but it seems like my body was built to sit in meditation, even though my mind isn't so inclined. In terms of physical endurance, I can easily sit for half an hour (sat an hour once, with two minor breaks). > Use a cushion to sustain you back and incline you forward - your knees will > touch the floor and give you a good equilibrium and stability. Yup, do that too! > Meditation is a very refined art Anders and you cannot practice without a > solid inner attitude. > For example use the muscular and joints pain to keep you present to the > moment. But I don't have any pain in half lotus. I always sit in full lotus when I do "pain meditation", and once you direct your awareness to the pain there, it can be excrusiating! > Your mind doesn't wanders if you are conscious of pain - observe it and I > bet it will grab your attention. Yup!!! > But do not cling to mortification or a kind of challenge with yourself. Nah, don't do that either. > But you do have us if you trust our help. uhhhh........ :-) :-) :-) Seriously, I'd love it! > This is subject I can feel quite confident about mister viking. ;-) Hang on, while I consume poisinous mushrooms and prepare to raid the British Isles! > Let's say for my services I would request a vacation in Scandinavia guest of > your mum. Is she a good cooker? :-)))) Not the best to tell you the truth (she's okay). My stepmom is a better cook really. Anyway, I thought the Dhamma was free!!!!! :-) 7192 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:01am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:49 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > Glad you liked my post :-) Am I the only one who thinks it strange that the > Theravada (or at least as it is represented here) and Mahayana view of > Nibbana could be so fundamentally different? >I see no difference whatsoever. I see only strategic pedagogy for differing accumulations. For some the "mind is luminous" and for others, there is only anatta. These are mere rafts; they can never convey direct knowledge of Nibbana, which is entirely beyond the scope of concepts like "mind" or "not mind" and of COURSE is NOT annihilation! My point! 7193 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:03am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders > Hi Anders Hello there, Cybele :-) > >Anyone got any advice? > > I would advise you to shift from the nostrils or upperlip to the abdominal > movement and be aware also of the sensation of body-contact with the cushion > or the floor. Thanks. > This should give you enough support to focus your attention. > However if you are experiencing any kind of visual phenomena (nimittas)it's > normal slipping in a kind of trance, that's why I use the Four Foundations > of Mindfulness rather than Anapanasati in my meditation. Nope, none of that kind. > Widening the field of my attention promotes the sense of being present > inside many realities without wandering, only shifting the attention on a > different subject. You should try non-dwelling then..... 7194 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:00am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > > Good gracious > > My eyes are whirling with all this consonants clashing together. > I bet that both of you can learn Pali after this stuff any language is 'a > piece of cake'.... :-) Bah, you should try and learn Chzeck. There's a language that likes to use consonants. > >Tusinde tak igen! Jeg er nok særlig indtrykt! Hvor kommer du fra? > >(Min mor, mor-mor og mor-far er aller fra Odense... og tilgive min > >forfærdelig Dansk--jeg har glemmt næsten all, og behøver > >mere > >anvende! ;) > > > >I think in Pali that might go something like "SADHU! SADHU! SADHU!" 7195 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:05am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana > > Erik > > I am really delighted! > I have been practicing Vipassana since my first contact with Theravada > Buddhism and for me it was a kind of revelation after years of Zen. What Zen did you fancy? My Zen was primarily the Chinese one from the T'ang dynasty. I never fancied koans much. 7196 From: Cybele Chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:29am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders Dear Anders Cy: > > Widening the field of my attention promotes the > sense of being present > > inside many realities without wandering, only > shifting the attention on a > > different subject. Anders: > You should try non-dwelling then..... > Preacher, I will call you the preacher from now on! ;-) Anders all the practcice if the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is BASED on noticing upadana - clinging - in order to don't get attached or reject any of the objects of meditation. Smack,smack Cybele 7197 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:57am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Cybele Chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 10:29 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders > Dear Anders > Anders: > > You should try non-dwelling then..... > > > > Preacher, I will call you the preacher from now on! > ;-) Yes! I'll that to my impressive resumé which includes: Keeper of the Sceptre of Us (ask at alt.philosophy.taoism), Keeper of Snakes, BWZ [Bastardized Western Zen] Messiah (from alt.philosophy.zen) and more. Can I get something extra added to that title to make it more fancy? This preacher thing seems to be a big deal to you, Cybele. :-) > Anders all the practice if the Four Foundations of > Mindfulness is BASED on noticing upadana - clinging - > in order to don't get attached or reject any of the > objects of meditation. > > Smack,smack I'm talking about no object of meditation at all! Have you read the Diamond Sutra? "This is why, Subhuti, the Bodhisattva should be free of all images when engendering the supremely unexcelled bodhicitta. He should not dwell in forms when giving rise to that mind. He should not dwell in sounds, odours, tastes, tactile sensations, or ideas when giving rise to that mind. He should dwell nowhere when giving rise to that mind. If in that mind he has an abode, then it would be the non-abode." 7198 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:02am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders Sweetheart > > Anders, you have to describe realistically your practice and we could >help > > you if you are indeed interested in commiting on the practice. > >Daily practise or what? Non-dwelling, as taught in the Diamond Sutra. My >preferred meditation subjects (when sitting that is) are Metta and >non-dwelling. I shift between the two depending on my moods (plus, I've >found that in the past few weeks my desire to sit has increased again. It >really went down the around winter). What a cocktail Anders, you are a free spirit or you are a bit dispersive? Anyway if you want my support on Vipassana meditation exclusively I can be helpful. BUT I practice the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and do not add much more burden to it. > > > I have done so many retreats in my life that I finished to assist the > > teachers, translating dhamma-talks and being present at all personal > > interviews. > >You may have got a head start in years, but you know I'll beat you to the >finish line ;-) Honey, I am not in a Nibbana contest. The spirit of competition I leave to the scandinavians. I am Brazilian, I take it easy. :-))))) > > Then you have to rely on what the 'convents pass' so to speak. > > If you trust a Brazilian wild woman teaching you Vipassana here I am. > >uhhhh........... Don't you dare viking, do any comment and the sword of justice will fall on your head!!!! :-) >>> > > If your legs are not enough elastic for a balanced half lotus you must >shift to 'easy posture', cross legged but not overimposing one leg. >I used to be able to sit in full lotus with only minor pains, but you >really >need to keep it up consistently to get that. But half-lotus is like a >second >nature to me. It feels so natural. It funny, but it seems like my body was >built to sit in meditation, even though my mind isn't so inclined. In terms >of physical endurance, I can easily sit for half an hour (sat an hour once, >with two minor breaks). Sweeetieeee! So tender... Anders a body build to sit in meditation has a lot more to endure. In a retreat of intensive practice you keep going alternating sitting and walking meditation from dawn till late evening. A minumum duration of a sitting session is one hour followed by one hour walking. In the strict ones like in Burma I arrived to sit in one time 3 hours and half. And my body is really not built to sit in meditation, I am very tall and well built, large bones and buxom. Therefore come down to earth, don't start with your manic high flights of sotopanna. :-) > > > Meditation is a very refined art Anders and you cannot practice without >a > > solid inner attitude. >> > > Your mind doesn't wanders if you are conscious of pain - observe it and >I > > bet it will grab your attention. > >Yup!!! > > > But do not cling to mortification or a kind of challenge with yourself. > >Nah, don't do that either. > > > But you do have us if you trust our help. > >uhhhh........ :-) :-) :-) > >Seriously, I'd love it! Ok the deal is done. Great I can boss you around!!!! ;-);-);-) > > > This is subject I can feel quite confident about mister viking. ;-) > >Hang on, while I consume poisinous mushrooms and prepare to raid the >British >Isles! What is this stuff of 'poisonous myshrooms'? > > > Let's say for my services I would request a vacation in Scandinavia >guest of your mum. Is she a good cooker? :-)))) > >Not the best to tell you the truth (she's okay). My stepmom is a better >cook >really. Anyway, I thought the Dhamma was free!!!!! :-) What this is capitalism sweetheart, let's face reality as it is! However if you really fancy it, contact me off line and I give you the clues. FREEEEEE don't worry! I must accumulate merits for all my 'sins'. ;-))))) Love Cybele 7199 From: ppp Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Hi, Suan: So are you saying that if one just drop into a Burmese embassy and pays a certain amount of fee, one can get an English translation of the whole Tipitaka (and that, if one wish, one can get a Burmese version, too)? (I know that the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script is the most authoritative/most beatifully edited Tipitaka.) tadao