9200 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 5:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing Hi Herman Much thanks for the poem. Congrats on your impending marriage and I am married myself with two little kids :). I hope one day I have the privilege and honour to listen to your music as well as Nina or others who have this wonderful and beautiful talent. Kind regards Ken O --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Ken O, > > In between having a new bride, a Brady bunch, working, dsg-ing > playing and listening to Bach and trying to get less sleep, I also > wrote a little poem :-) > > Even as the eye does not see the eye > even as the ear does not hear the ear > even as the nose does not smell the nose > so does the mind not know the mind > > Probably doesn't help at all :-) > > > All the best > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > a. When I read that Vedana feels, I am wondering does vedana > really feel > > or it is the citta that cognize the feel. To me Vedana may be just > like a > > filter or a prism that separate light into seven parts, but it does > not > > feel. To me since citta played the role of knowing I tend to > believe that > > citta is the one that know the feel and not cetasikas. Comment > please. > > > > b. Similiarly, the function of citta, does citta really experience > or it > > is just doing its job and say this is interpret as good and this is > > interpret as bad. Comment please. > > > > c. Third question, kuasala and akuasala are mutually exclusive and > only > > certain beautiful cetasikas follow kusala and vice versa, please > kindly > > quote any commentaries that say that? I am quite curious and > perplex why > > are they mutually exclusive and why certain cetasikas follow certain > > cittas. > > > > > > Sorry for now these are my questions abt Abidhamma. If I got more > time to > > read them, i asked more again. > > > > > > Much thanks > > Ken O > > > > > > 9201 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 5:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard Hi Sarah, S:Realities have no entity in the sense of a self, but they still ‘exist’ and have characteristics which can be known when they arise briefly. I don’t think we can say namas or rupas ‘dwell’ anywhere, and although we can talk about the importance of eye-base or heart-base for seeing or thinking to arise, at the moment of awareness of seeing or thinking, there’s no idea of eye-base or heart-base. We know from our studies however, that without these various bases and doorways and other conditions, there couldn’t be seeing or thinking. In this way, reading about these details (all found in ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’), helps to get rid of wrong views and ideas of self controlling rather than conditions ‘forming up’ realities. k: Just a point abt sense base. To me cittas are not dependent of rupa based to have the six senses. To hear physically or to see physically, I do agree that it is rupa dependent. As you say before, during sleep we do not see as the senses are not working and there is a contiunation of cittas which is bavanga cittas. But i more prefer to think that such latent characteristics of seeing is not cease, it is just not arise as there is no right conditions and causes for it to arise. This is similar to lobha and panna, they do not cease with cittas cease, they are passed to the next arising cittas. Hence there is the reasons I believe we could accumulate. If such pannas or lobha cease together with these cittas, then whatever we accumulate will be back to square one. Such characteristics of passing is definitely annatta similar to the nature of cittas and cetasikas. Kind regards Ken O --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for being so welcoming to my questions. I very much appreciate > your > > thoughtful answers, and it is also a pleasure to converse on these > questions, > > which as you said, are so 'directly related to....realities to be > known now.' > .................... > > S:Thanks Rob. We seem to post at the same time every day (for me, it’s > late > lunch-time, for you it must be about 2am!.....) I’m pretty ‘addicted’ to > your > daily ‘splash’ of posts too;-) > .................... > S:> > I think I can only say to the first 2 questions that this is how > it > > is...and > > > our task is to understand the ‘descriptive’ rather than to reason > > why.....The > > > only other answer I may add is that they must be exactly this way > and > > cannot be > > > any other way because of the complex way conditions (paccaya) cause > them to > > be > > > like this. So the citta now arises sequentially because of anantara > paccaya > > > which means it is conditioned by the preceeding citta to arise > sequentially > > and > > > so many, many other conditions to make it be this citta and no other > citta > > > arising. > > > R:> I do think this is a good explanation of why each present moment is > both > > unique > > and in a sense solitary, even though it is also completely connected > to each > > other > > factor coming before and after, and all those which surround it in the > > present. A > > very clear paradox, but a reality. > .................... > > S:Good..you’ve got the idea I was trying to express. > .................... > > .................... > S:>> Mindfulness “does not allow the floating away of > > moral > > > states” (Atth.) > > > > > > Awareness can be aware of any reality, including awareness (sati). > As we’ve > > > discussed recently, strictly speaking, it is not aware of itself but > of the > > > characteristic of sati which has just fallen away. Sati is not aware > of a > > > process, but just of one reality at these times. It’s thinking which > thinks > > > about a process of consciousness. > > > R:> Very good. I am still trying to imagine in a sense what a 'citta' > is > 'formed > > like' and how the 'cetasikas' interact or support it, and how 'sati' > sort of > > overlooks or opens insight into the whole thing, and how satipathana, > like a > > mature sati, can see into the full nature of the momentary arising, > whereas > > sati > > would only see its more obvious qualities...... > .................... > > S:Did my post with Atthasalani and Visuddhimagga quotes to Ken O help at > all? > Like those ingredients in the curry, all the skilful mental factors have > to > intereact together, perform their own functions and condition each other > and > the citta and vice versa. Of course, if there isn’t precise awareness of > a > reality itself, there cannot be awareness of the ‘momentary arising’ or > ‘ceasing’ or that reality. That’s why there has to be the clear > distinction > between different realities and in particular between namas and rupas > first. As > you suggest, sati has to develop and be aware of these realities more > and more > precisely. > .................... > R:> I'd sort of like a kind of molecular chart of these relationships, > however > > I'm > > sure in a way that would give the wrong impression that these events > are like > > little 'things' that sit there for a second, when in truth they must > be more > > in > > the nature of an open quality of mind and not really occupy any place > or > > space but > > simply co-occur together in spaceless, formless function. > .................... > > S:Yes, we can read all the detail we wish in the abhidhamma texts (with > many > charts), but it’s still possible to ‘work it all out’ and take all these > realities for ‘self’. When awareness is aware of a characteristic of > reality, > it’s not concerned with time or place or even relationship at that > moment, it’s > just aware of what is presenting itself, e.g seeing which sees or > visible > object which is seen at this moment. > .................... > R:> Since they really have no entity, it is hard to imagine how they > arise or > > function > > at all. Unlike the physical realities, which maintain physical forms > that > > sort of > > 'house' them, the cittas and cetasikas and sati have no such place to > dwell. > > So > > in a sense it is hard to see how or where they really occur at all. > > > > It is only in conjunction with physical sense organs and physical > objects, I > > guess > > that they can find the conditions to cohere for a moment within the > > functioning of > > these mechanisms, and so they are associated with sense-door, > mind-door and > > mind > > itself. > .................... > > S:Realities have no entity in the sense of a self, but they still > ‘exist’ and > have characteristics which can be known when they arise briefly. I don’t > think > we can say namas or rupas ‘dwell’ anywhere, and although we can talk > about the > importance of eye-base or heart-base for seeing or thinking to arise, at > the > moment of awareness of seeing or thinking, there’s no idea of eye-base > or > heart-base. We know from our studies however, that without these various > bases > and doorways and other conditions, there couldn’t be seeing or thinking. > In > this way, reading about these details (all found in ‘Abhidhamma in Daily > Life’), helps to get rid of wrong views and ideas of self controlling > rather > than conditions ‘forming up’ realities. > .................... > R:> But it would be nice to have alittle more conceptual clarity, which > I guess > > will > > come in time....and then perhaps obscure their reality even more! > > .................... > > S:Again it depends on the purpose for study, I think, as I mentioned to > Christine, and whether there’s any awareness and understanding while > reading > and considering. If there’s more confusion, there can be awareness of > the > confusion too;-) > .................... > S:>>..... Being aware of these different realities, and understanding > > the > > > difference between them, is the only way to develop detachment from > the > > idea of > > > a self or a lasting consciousness. Sati is very precise and has a > very > > specific > > > function and characteristic. > > > R:> Very good. Thanks for going from my abstract to the clarity of the > concrete > > moment. > ..................... > > S:The Teachings are very ‘concrete’ I find and there is nothing mystical > or > abstract about sati or the objects it is aware of. > .................... > S:> even if I sometimes misunderstand your point, > > > can’t always provide the answers or am rather slow;-). > > > > I wouldn't say so. I think you are sincere and very clear, and I > appreciate > > your > > level-headedness, something that I've been missing most of my life. > .................... > > S:Well, the level-headedness is turning quickly to > big-headedness......Let me > assure you that moments of level-headedness are rare in my day....thanks > anyway. > .................... > R:> Thanks, Sarah. I also find it very enjoyable to dig into the > possibilities > > of > > this present reality. As I said before, I was surprised at my first > exposure > > to > > the commentaries to find them very illuminating and to have a 'warmth' > about > > them. > > They seem to understand the 'luminosity of mind' or at least to > express it, > > even > > if we can't yet get a handle on it ourselves. > > > > These conversations with you are very special, a kind of Dhamma oasis > for me, > > for > > which I give you much thanks. > .................... > > S:Big bow... You bring out the best in us all, Rob...and we’re very > fortunate > to have you around.. > > Sarah 9202 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 5:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friendly Greetings Norman --- nymchan0@n... wrote: > Dear dhamma comrades, > > I've just joined the dhammastudygroup and would like to send a > greeting to all of you. > > Namaste, > Norman :-) Hi, and welcome to the list. Thanks for joining us. I'm sorry I wasn't able to join you, Sarah and Linda for discussion at the Peak Cafe but, as you know, I was away (in India). Please feel free to come in with any comments at any time. Jon 9203 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 6:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rid of impurities... Alex --- axtran@h... wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > It's good to read everyone's posts, here. As always, yours are > thoughtful and full of wisdom. I feel very fortunate that I found > this group. It's a treat to read your answers to my confusing > questions. > > Thank you, > Alex I also feel extremely fortunate to have found this group. Your comments (and questions) are always much appreciated -- do share your thoughts with us from time to time. Jon 9204 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 9:45am Subject: Re: cittas- sequential and sati You can try www.pariyatti.com. They have a wondeful selection of books and an easy-to-order-from website. > I try ordering the Book of Analysis and Dispeller of Delusion which Robert > has kindly introduced to me. I am still waiting for PTS to respond my > email of my ordering, but till date I have no reply. Is there any other > way to buy it, do you know of any good web on line store that sells these > books. I believe they are impt to my studies on Satipatthana and > Abidhamma. > > Thanks once again and at times I feel guilty that you have spend so much > time in explaining Abidhamma terms to me and also to many others that have > assist me in the understanding of Abidhamma. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > > > > --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Ken O, > > > > > > Sarah: > > >.....The only other answer I may add is that they must be exactly this > > > way and cannot be any other way because of the complex way conditions > > > (paccaya) cause them to be like this. So the citta now arises > > sequentially > > > because of anantara paccaya which means it is conditioned by the > > > preceeding citta to arise sequentially and so many, many other > > conditions > > > to make it be this citta and no other citta arising. > > .................... > > > > > k: I was thinking why can't we have many simultanoues arising and > > falling > > > of cittas. Why would one have to fall before another arise? This is > > maybe > > > of our way of thinking due to science that brain works in parallel > > rather > > > than sequential. Would you like to quote a few commentaries or notes > > or > > > links that help us understand more on this sequential process. > > .................... > > > > Sarah: > > I'd like to give some links, but most of the detail in this area that I > > have is > > in texts that are not on-line as yet, so I'll try to quote selectively > > (i.e > > choose the shorter ones;-) Why can't there be seeing and hearing at the > > same > > time? Why do cittas (consciusness) arise as they do? I think these > > questions > > are the imponderables and that it is better to understand that this is > > the way > > it is (because of all those conditions). > > > > One of the most useful commentaries is the Atthasalini (The Expositor), > > available from PTS. It's not a big book and much easier to read, I > > think, than > > the English translation of Dhammasangani (1st book of the > > Abhidhamma)which it > > accompanies. > > > > The following quote is from Atth (63): > > > > `....... is termed `consciousness' , because it arranges itself > > in a > > series (`cintoti', or, its own series or continuity) by way of > > apperception in > > a process of thought. And the resultant is also termed `consciousness' > > because > > it is accumulated (cito) by kamma and corruptions. > > > > Moreover, all (four classes) are > > termed > > `consciousness' because they are variegated (citra) acording to > > circumstance. > > The meaning of consciousness may also be understood from its capacity of > > producing a variety of diversity of effects. > > > > Herein consciousness with lust is one thing, that with hate is > > another..........' > > > > This one comes a little later from the same text at (112). Again citta > > is being > > described: > > > > `.....As to its characteristic, etc., cognizing object is its > > characteristic, > > forerunning is its function, connecting is its manifestation, a mental > > and > > material organism is its proximate cause. There is no such > > thing > > as consciousness in the four planes of existence without the > > characteristic of > > cognizing. All consciousness has it. But when a `door' is reached at > > the > > place where the `object' is evolved, consciousness is the forerunner, > > the > > precursor. A visible object seen by the eye is cognized by > > consciousness > > etc...an idea known by the mind is cognized by > > consciousness.............. > > > > The consciousness which arises next does so immediately after the > > preceding > > consciousness, forming a connected series. Thus it has connection as > > manifestation...' > > > > ******************** > > > > Finally on this question of cittas, let me just refer you also to the > > Visuddhimagga, which many people have already. At XX30, it describes in > > detail > > the 89 kinds of consciousness. At 1V n13, there is a lengthy discussion > > on > > bhavanga and other cittas and also a discussion of the treatment of > > these in > > the Suttas, Abhidhamma and Commentaries and the `inter-connection'. > > > > A shorter passage which I'll quote comes from V11139 addressing the > > question > > you've raised before about the cessation of cittas: > > > > `...As to the shortness of the moment; in the ultimate sense the > > life-moment > > of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the > > occurrence of a > > single conscious moment. Just as the chariot wheel, when it is rolling, > > rolls > > (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference > > of) its > > tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life > > of > > living beings lasts only for a single conscius moment. When that > > consciusness > > has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according it is said: `In > > a past > > conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a > > future > > conscious moment not he did live. not he does live, he will live. In > > the > > present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will > > live. > > > > ` "Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone > > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > > Are all alike, gone never to return. > > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > > produced; when that is present, then it lives; > > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: > > The highest sense this concept will allow' `(Nd.1.42). > > > > This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the > > moment.' > > > > > > ******************** > > Thanks Ken, for giving me an opportunity to reflect on these quotes, > > especially > > the last one which is always a condition for `wise attention' for me.> > > .................... > > > > Sarah: > > > > > Yes, sati (awareness) is a mental factor which sometimes > > accompanies > > > > citta (consciousness). It accompanies all wholesome (kusala) cittas > > and > > > is aware of> the object for those moments only. It can be aware of any > > > reality, but is not necessarily (read very seldom if at all) at the > > level > > > of satipatthana which is aware of a reality as not self. So for > > example, > > > if there is generosity or kindness without ever having heard the > > Buddha's > > > teachings, at the moments these mental states arise with the wholesome > > > cittas, there is sati which is mindful of what is skilful and prevents > > > that which is unskilful, but not necessarily accompanied by wisdom. > > > Mindfulness "does not allow the floating away of moral states" (Atth.) > > > > .................. > > > > > k: Could you give more details on the last quote. Very interesting > > idea > > > that I like to ponder on. Secondly since sati only accompany the > > kusala > > > citta, so do we need to be aware when we are have kusala cetasikas for > > eg > > > metta. Is it due to akusala cittas that might arise due to the > > falling of > > > kusala cetasikas that we need to practise sati. > > .................... > > > > Sarah: > > There are many excellent details about the characteristic of sati > > (mindfulness) > > in Atthasalini again (121f): > > > > `....As the young treasurer of the king, in charge of the tenfold > > treasure, > > both early and late causes the king to take note of and remember the > > royal > > possession, so mindfulness takes note of, remembers a moral act. Hence > > the > > Elder said: `As, your majesty, the king's confidential adviser early and > > late > > makes the universal monarch remember: so many, lord, are your > > elephants, so > > many horses, so many chariots, so much infantry, so much bullion, so > > much gold, > > so much property; let your majesty remember it- even so, your majesty, > > mindfulness does not allow the floating away of moral states, such as > > the four > > applications of mindfulness, the four supreme efforts........... > > And as > > that jewel, the confidential adviser of the universal monarch, knowing > > what is > > diadvantageous and what is advantageous, removes the disadvantageous and > > promotes the advantageous, so mindfulness, searching well the courses of > > advantageous and disadvantageous states;- `these are disadvantageous > > states, > > misconduct in body', etc, removes the disadvantageous states, misconduct > > in > > body.............It should > > be > > regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and > > as a > > door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.' > > > > Ken, I think I've got a bit carried away with the typing of quotes, so > > I'll > > just address the other points in brief with no more quotes;-) > > > > To be accurate, sati accompanies all the sobhana cittas which include > > the > > kusala cittas, vipaka cittas and kiriya cittas (of the arahat). You can > > find > > full details of these in Nina's books on the websites linked here: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > > > > We're not aware of anything (as you know) but sati is aware of any > > reality > > presenting itself, regardless of whether it is metta, unkindness, wise > > consideration, aversion, seeing or visible object. Any selection or > > choice > > shows there is no sati at that moment. The reason sati (of satipatthana) > > needs > > to develop is in order to be mindful of what really is appearing now, > > not what > > we've always taken to be appearing now. By being aware (with > > understading) of > > these realities, it becomes more and more apparent what their > > characteristics > > are and what the meaning of anatta is. However, if we don't hear and > > consider a > > lot of details about metta and compassion for example, we'll think there > > is > > awareness of them when really it is attachment or sorrow that is the > > reality. > > > > I'd just like to stress that `we' don't need to practise anything. > > Understanding is the key, rather than a wrong idea of `self that can do > > or > > prctise'. > > .................... > > > > Sarah: > > > > ...I think it's most useful to consider what are the > > > > > realities being experienced at the present moment. By beginning to > > be > > > > aware (sati being aware) of a nama or rupa (mental or physical > > > phenomena) > > > > now, such as seeing or visible object, feeling or hardness and so > > on, > > > this is the way sati develops. Being aware of these different > > realities, > > > and understanding the difference between them, is the only way to > > develop > > > detachment from the idea of a self or a lasting consciousness. Sati is > > > very precise and has a very specific function and characteristic. > > .................... > > > > > k: In a sense, only kusala cittas helps to developed panna, then why > > do > > > we need to be in sati of akusala cittas as suggeted by Satipatthana. > > Also > > > does all these conditioning due to our memory that there is a self. > > Is > > > memory a universal cetasikas. > > > > .................... > > > > Sarah: > > Panna (rt understanding) and sati need to know and be aware of many, > > many > > different realities without any selection. They can then `see' the > > advantageous > > and disadvantageous as discussed in the quote I gave. The lack of sati > > and > > panna is due to ignorance and wrong view and the lack of `guarding' the > > sense > > doors. Sanna, (perception or memory) is one key universal cetasika but I > > think > > this post has already become too long ;-) > > > > Thanks for your patience and that of others who've read through all the > > quotes. > > Hope this helps;-) > > > > Sarah > > > > > > 9205 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 1:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana A lot of these questions are skirting the issue which at least makes the alternative view possible, which is whether there is a supernatural reality of consciousness which exists independent of the body. Obviously, if consciousness is just a byproduct of being in a psychophysical organism, then there is no question that all experience absolutely ceases at death. If this were the case, there would be no reincarnation of one's 'consciousness and/or karmas' from one lifetime to a new one, which then picks up where the other one left off to keep working off those tendencies. It seems to me that some have suggested this here, in saying that the real meaning of reincarnation is the birth and death of each citta in each moment, which is picked up in essence by a following citta which continues its tendencies along. To me, one who believes that the psychophysical process is the beginning and ending of life and experience, is a materialist. This is not an insult, it just means that they believe that the physical reality of existence predominates in whether we have sentience or not. Without the body, consciousness is not possible. The alterative view is mysticism. That there is something that remains independent of whether physical bodies are created or not. Even one who believes that there are 'bodies' in other dimensions of existence that one can be reborn into, are necessarily 'mystics' in the sense that they believe in the supernatural. IE, they can get hit by a truck and wake up a moment later in another realm of existence where they will still be conscious, as in the etheric or mental body. Mahayana seems to be more directly acknowledging of the mystical or supernatural dimension of experience. It speaks about the Buddha's past lives and what he was doing, etc. There are references to past lives in Theravada too, I believe, however, but it doesn't seem to be a necessary structure for belief. Mahayana talks about 'direct transmission of mind' and things like that, which are not seen in Theravada. There are more mystical categories, especially in Tibetan Buddhism. If one doesn't even believe in the different dimensions that the Buddha talks about in both the Tipitaka and Mahayana, I think that person is denying part of the Buddha's clear speech. But when it comes to Parinibbana, there is still room for controversy. However, it seems to me that those who are relatively certain that there is no awareness, even unmodified pure awareness, after Parinibbana, are tending to think that once the body is gone, experience is eradicated. I wonder if this reflects somewhat the idea that there is no consciousness independent of a physical body, or whether it just reflects the idea that once the kandhas have been laid to rest, there is no condition for the arising of any more cittas? If the latter were the case, I don't see why some arahants would not just stop having any experience or action even while the body was still there. In other words, they could enter a kind of divine catatonia, where the sense organs and mind were still functionally present, but simply refused to respond to any external or internal stimuli, since there was no longer a notion of a self reacting that would need to arise to do anything. This arahant would simply whither, like plant that has been cut off at the root, and eventually the body, being unused, would simply pass away. But this doesn't seem to be the experience of any aranhants of record. What I am mainly trying to clarify is that it seems that there is a basic conflict between those who believe that the Universe represents a kind of life-form in its own right, and those who feel that we are sort of mistaken beings that showed up through a kind of flaw of cause and effect, the rectification of which is the eradication of same. The Universe as a life-form, of course, gets you into the trouble of an ultimate divine entity. The alternate view has the problem of real nullity, or nothingness. I keep trying to find a real middle ground, where there is beingness, but without a being. And that, to me, is the middle path. Best, Robert Ep. =================== --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 11/8/01 1:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > I'll try to get hold of the pali to the sutta and if I do we might be > > able to study it more. I didn't want to comment directly until I do. > > I also wondered if you concurred with the definition given by > > Nyanatiloka; I understand him to be representing the Theravada > > correctly here. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I concur that he is definitely expressing the standard Theravadin > commentarial position here. It is not for me to "agree" with that or not, > because I certainly have no basis for evaluating it - I haven't any actual > knowledge as to the nature of nibbana, let alone parinibbana. I would be very > interested in getting a better understanding, from the tipitaka itself, and > mainly the suttas, what the Buddha had to say. However, the one strong > prejudice that I *do* have in the matter is that even if parinibbana does > mark the complete termination of all the khandhas (which I definitely don't > rule out), it is a termination that, in some fashion (and one not likely > compatible with ordinary samsaric usage), does not constitute making "the > state of the dead arahant" an absolute nullity equivalent to the usual > materialist's notion of death. (Of course, in the foregoing, "the state of > the dead arahant" is misleading language on several counts.) > The sutta we were discussing *might* seem to suggest the following: > (1) The living arahant already sees only anatta in "his/her self" and in all > dhammas, and he/she neither grasps at or pushes away anything, is attached to > nothing, seeing nothing anywhere as substantial or personal or truly > satisfactory, and no longer is (i.e. no longer has the seeming of being) a > "being", and (2) upon death, the functions of sight, hearing, touch, taste, > and smell, their associated mindstates, and their associated objects no > longer arise. (Whether or not, motivated by compassion, these functions can > be reacquired is a separate question. Apparently, Theravada says "no"and > Mahayana says "yes".) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > best wishes > > robert > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9206 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard Thank you Jon. That gives a concrete [nama v. rupa] hook for beginning to discern cittas. Very useful. This can be employed as a very good device whether one believes in the 'single unit citta' theory or not. Even with a continuous consciounsess, one can look at the characteristic of the mental or physical object. Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Robert Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Good material, Jon. > Thanks. And this description of the arising, > > duration and > > ending of a citta is not so complicated really. Like everything else > > within the > > space-time continuum, it has a beginning, a middle and an end, which > > take place > > seemingly in time and in the physical world. This makes the citta > > somewhat > > accessible as an event, even if it happens too fast and subtly for us to > > normally > > be aware of it. > > As far as citta happening 'too fast and subtly for us to normally be aware > of it' is concerned, my understanding is, yes and no. When awareness is > being developed, it is not aware of an individual citta (I suppose only a > Buddha would have that level of understanding), but it can be aware of the > *characteristic* of citta. This can be known because awareness can take > as its object several moments of, for example, the citta that sees or > hears and thus something of the characteristic of that particular citta > can be known. > > The following passage fro the Visuddhimagga (XXIII, 2), which I cited in a > post to Ken O a few minutes ago, bears repeating. It says in effect that > the beginning of mundane development of understanding is the > understanding that knows the difference between nama (ie. citta and > cetasika) and rupa-- > "Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane > development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements > beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the > delimitation of mentality-materiality." > > As to the characteristic of citta, the Explanatory Guide in Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha states (CMA I, Guide to > #3) > "In the case of citta, its characteristic is the knowing of an object > (vijaanana). Its function is to be a "forerunner" (pubbangama) of the > mental factors in that it presides over them and is always accompanied by > them. Its manifestation--the way it appears in the meditator's > experience--is as a continuity of processes (sandhaana). Its proximate > cause is mind-and-matter (naamaruupa) because consciousness cannot arise > alone, in the complete absence of mental factors and material phenomena." > > Jon 9207 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 9:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/9/01 1:12:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > What I find interesting here is that there is discussed only the > remaining of > > the *five* sense organs (until death) and the experience of what is > pleasant > > and unpleasant and of bodily ease and pain coming through them. This > > pleasantness, unpleasantness, and bodily ease and pain experienced via > the > > five senses constitutes the no-longer-relished feelings extinguished at > the > > death of the arahant. Nowhere is anything said of mental function ceasing > > > upon the death of the arahant. > > Hey Howard. > You don't think you can get away with that, do you? [hope you do > of > course]. > > Regards, > Robert Ep. > ================================ Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) No, I didn't expect to get off easily on this, and the fact that no major "fight" on this has erupted yet is frankly getting me quite nervous! I am having nightmares about an entire Abhidhammic arsenal being assembled! (Just kidding, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, et alia ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9208 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 9:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Web-based Distance Learning MA in Buddhist Studies Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/9/01 3:12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear All, > > The University of Sunderland proposes an MA, Postgraduate Diploma, > and Postgraduate Certificate in Distance-Learning, entirely on the > Net. > > The Program is led by Professor Peter Harvey, Professor of Buddhist > Studies, University of Sunderland. Probable start date Sept. 02. > For details: http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/buddhist/ > > metta, > Christine > ============================ Ooooh! Wow! What a great opportunity for those with the time, money (I assume there is a fee), and inclination. Peter Harvey is my favorite Buddhist academician (closely followed by Richard Hayes and David Kalupahana). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9209 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 10:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/9/01 4:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > A lot of these questions are skirting the issue which at least makes the > alternative view possible, which is whether there is a supernatural reality > of > consciousness which exists independent of the body. > > Obviously, if consciousness is just a byproduct of being in a > psychophysical > organism, then there is no question that all experience absolutely ceases > at > death. If this were the case, there would be no reincarnation of one's > 'consciousness and/or karmas' from one lifetime to a new one, which then > picks up > where the other one left off to keep working off those tendencies. > > It seems to me that some have suggested this here, in saying that the real > meaning > of reincarnation is the birth and death of each citta in each moment, which > is > picked up in essence by a following citta which continues its tendencies > along. > > To me, one who believes that the psychophysical process is the beginning > and > ending of life and experience, is a materialist. This is not an insult, it > just > means that they believe that the physical reality of existence predominates > in > whether we have sentience or not. Without the body, consciousness is not > possible. > > The alterative view is mysticism. That there is something that remains > independent of whether physical bodies are created or not. Even one who > believes > that there are 'bodies' in other dimensions of existence that one can be > reborn > into, are necessarily 'mystics' in the sense that they believe in the > supernatural. IE, they can get hit by a truck and wake up a moment later > in > another realm of existence where they will still be conscious, as in the > etheric > or mental body. > > Mahayana seems to be more directly acknowledging of the mystical or > supernatural > dimension of experience. It speaks about the Buddha's past lives and what > he was > doing, etc. There are references to past lives in Theravada too, I > believe, > however, but it doesn't seem to be a necessary structure for belief. > Mahayana > talks about 'direct transmission of mind' and things like that, which are > not seen > in Theravada. There are more mystical categories, especially in Tibetan > Buddhism. > > If one doesn't even believe in the different dimensions that the Buddha > talks > about in both the Tipitaka and Mahayana, I think that person is denying > part of > the Buddha's clear speech. But when it comes to Parinibbana, there is > still room > for controversy. > > However, it seems to me that those who are relatively certain that there is > no > awareness, even unmodified pure awareness, after Parinibbana, are tending > to think > that once the body is gone, experience is eradicated. I wonder if this > reflects > somewhat the idea that there is no consciousness independent of a physical > body, > or whether it just reflects the idea that once the kandhas have been laid > to rest, > there is no condition for the arising of any more cittas? > > If the latter were the case, I don't see why some arahants would not just > stop > having any experience or action even while the body was still there. In > other > words, they could enter a kind of divine catatonia, where the sense organs > and > mind were still functionally present, but simply refused to respond to any > external or internal stimuli, since there was no longer a notion of a self > reacting that would need to arise to do anything. This arahant would > simply > whither, like plant that has been cut off at the root, and eventually the > body, > being unused, would simply pass away. But this doesn't seem to be the > experience > of any aranhants of record. > > What I am mainly trying to clarify is that it seems that there is a basic > conflict > between those who believe that the Universe represents a kind of life-form > in its > own right, and those who feel that we are sort of mistaken beings that > showed up > through a kind of flaw of cause and effect, the rectification of which is > the > eradication of same. The Universe as a life-form, of course, gets you into > the > trouble of an ultimate divine entity. The alternate view has the problem > of real > nullity, or nothingness. I keep trying to find a real middle ground, where > there > is beingness, but without a being. And that, to me, is the middle path. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > ========================== I think that you are correct in making an association between materialism and the the view of parinibbana as a complete cutting of of experience in *every* sense. I also think that that view has helped contribute to the notion of Theravada being nihilist. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9210 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 4:57pm Subject: Re: Nibbana --- Dear Robert Ep., I think if you read Abhidhamma in Daily life(Nina van Gorkom) this will make these matters clearer. You can read it on the internet at several different sites. In the arupa Brahma planes there is no physical base, there is no materialty at all, there are only citta and cetasika. The Buddhas earlier teachers are now in these worlds, they had developed the jhanas that give the result to arise here and they thought that this was nibbana and that they were fully enlightened. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > A lot of these questions are skirting the issue which at least makes the > alternative view possible, which is whether there is a supernatural reality of > consciousness which exists independent of the body. > > Obviously, if consciousness is just a byproduct of being in a psychophysical > organism, then there is no question that all experience absolutely ceases at > death. If this were the case, there would be no reincarnation of one's > 'consciousness and/or karmas' from one lifetime to a new one, which then picks up > where the other one left off to keep working off those tendencies. > > It seems to me that some have suggested this here, in saying that the real meaning > of reincarnation is the birth and death of each citta in each moment, which is > picked up in essence by a following citta which continues its tendencies along. > > To me, one who believes that the psychophysical process is the beginning and > ending of life and experience, is a materialist. This is not an insult, it just > means that they believe that the physical reality of existence predominates in > whether we have sentience or not. Without the body, consciousness is not > possible. > > The alterative view is mysticism. That there is something that remains > independent of whether physical bodies are created or not. Even one who believes > that there are 'bodies' in other dimensions of existence that one can be reborn > into, are necessarily 'mystics' in the sense that they believe in the > supernatural. IE, they can get hit by a truck and wake up a moment later in > another realm of existence where they will still be conscious, as in the etheric > or mental body. > > Mahayana seems to be more directly acknowledging of the mystical or supernatural > dimension of experience. It speaks about the Buddha's past lives and what he was > doing, etc. There are references to past lives in Theravada too, I believe, > however, but it doesn't seem to be a necessary structure for belief. Mahayana > talks about 'direct transmission of mind' and things like that, which are not seen > in Theravada. There are more mystical categories, especially in Tibetan > Buddhism. > > If one doesn't even believe in the different dimensions that the Buddha talks > about in both the Tipitaka and Mahayana, I think that person is denying part of > the Buddha's clear speech. But when it comes to Parinibbana, there is still room > for controversy. > > However, it seems to me that those who are relatively certain that there is no > awareness, even unmodified pure awareness, after Parinibbana, are tending to think > that once the body is gone, experience is eradicated. I wonder if this reflects > somewhat the idea that there is no consciousness independent of a physical body, > or whether it just reflects the idea that once the kandhas have been laid to rest, > there is no condition for the arising of any more cittas? > > If the latter were the case, I don't see why some arahants would not just stop > having any experience or action even while the body was still there. In other > words, they could enter a kind of divine catatonia, where the sense organs and > mind were still functionally present, but simply refused to respond to any > external or internal stimuli, since there was no longer a notion of a self > reacting that would need to arise to do anything. This arahant would simply > whither, like plant that has been cut off at the root, and eventually the body, > being unused, would simply pass away. But this doesn't seem to be the experience > of any aranhants of record. > > What I am mainly trying to clarify is that it seems that there is a basic conflict > between those who believe that the Universe represents a kind of life-form in its > own right, and those who feel that we are sort of mistaken beings that showed up > through a kind of flaw of cause and effect, the rectification of which is the > eradication of same. The Universe as a life-form, of course, gets you into the > trouble of an ultimate divine entity. The alternate view has the problem of real > nullity, or nothingness. I keep trying to find a real middle ground, where there > is beingness, but without a being. And that, to me, is the middle path. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > =================== > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 11/8/01 1:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > > > I'll try to get hold of the pali to the sutta and if I do we might be > > > able to study it more. I didn't want to comment directly until I do. > > > I also wondered if you concurred with the definition given by > > > Nyanatiloka; I understand him to be representing the Theravada > > > correctly here. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I concur that he is definitely expressing the standard Theravadin > > commentarial position here. It is not for me to "agree" with that or not, > > because I certainly have no basis for evaluating it - I haven't any actual > > knowledge as to the nature of nibbana, let alone parinibbana. I would be very > > interested in getting a better understanding, from the tipitaka itself, and > > mainly the suttas, what the Buddha had to say. However, the one strong > > prejudice that I *do* have in the matter is that even if parinibbana does > > mark the complete termination of all the khandhas (which I definitely don't > > rule out), it is a termination that, in some fashion (and one not likely > > compatible with ordinary samsaric usage), does not constitute making "the > > state of the dead arahant" an absolute nullity equivalent to the usual > > materialist's notion of death. (Of course, in the foregoing, "the state of > > the dead arahant" is misleading language on several counts.) > > The sutta we were discussing *might* seem to suggest the following: > > (1) The living arahant already sees only anatta in "his/her self" and in all > > dhammas, and he/she neither grasps at or pushes away anything, is attached to > > nothing, seeing nothing anywhere as substantial or personal or truly > > satisfactory, and no longer is (i.e. no longer has the seeming of being) a > > "being", and (2) upon death, the functions of sight, hearing, touch, taste, > > and smell, their associated mindstates, and their associated objects no > > longer arise. (Whether or not, motivated by compassion, these functions can > > be reacquired is a separate question. Apparently, Theravada says "no"and > > Mahayana says "yes".) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > best wishes > > > robert > > > > > ============================ > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9211 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 5:03pm Subject: Re: Web-based Distance Learning MA in Buddhist Studies Hi Howard, I am not sure about fees - but as it is a course with an academic award, I would imagine the fees could be a hurdle for some people (me). Peter Harvey is also said to be a Meditation Teacher at Samatha Trust. The Samatha Trust has its roots in Thai Theravada Buddhism. It is a lay organization with around 80 teachers, mostly in the UK. It teaches a carefully structured form of mindfulness of breathing, along with a range of other meditations and Pali chanting. It explores a range of texts, Sutta, Abhidhamma and a few Mahayana texts to bring alive their relevance to contemporary practice. Interestingly, it's only Publication to date is "Abhidhamma Papers" ed. by Mark Rowhands http://www.samatha.demon.co.uk/ (click on Publications) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 11/9/01 3:12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > Dear All, > > > > The University of Sunderland proposes an MA, Postgraduate Diploma, > > and Postgraduate Certificate in Distance-Learning, entirely on the > > Net. > > > > The Program is led by Professor Peter Harvey, Professor of Buddhist > > Studies, University of Sunderland. Probable start date Sept. 02. > > For details: http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/buddhist/ > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ============================ > Ooooh! Wow! What a great opportunity for those with the time, money (I > assume there is a fee), and inclination. Peter Harvey is my favorite Buddhist > academician (closely followed by Richard Hayes and David Kalupahana). > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9212 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 5:05pm Subject: (2) The Vietnamese Tipitaka --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > I have no doubt that you and your website play a big role in encouraging the > translation of these excellent texts into Vietnamese and I sincerely hope that > further texts and commentaries will be translated too. --------------------------------------------------------------- BA: :-) Not sure if my humble contribution has played a "big role"! However, I hope that at least, it would create some awareness within our VN Buddhist community (which are largely Mahayana-orientated) - both inside Vietnam and overseas - to have a true appreciation of the Pali Tipitaka and the Theravada tradition. Metta, Binh 9213 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Web-based Distance Learning MA in Buddhist Studies Hi, Christine - Thanks for the info! I've bookmarked the publications page to look over "the Abhidhamma Papers" and in anticipation of more publications being added. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/9/01 8:07:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I am not sure about fees - but as it is a course with an academic > award, I would imagine the fees could be a hurdle for some people > (me). > > Peter Harvey is also said to be a Meditation Teacher at Samatha > Trust. The Samatha Trust has its roots in Thai Theravada Buddhism. > It is a lay organization with around 80 teachers, mostly in the UK. > It teaches a carefully structured form of mindfulness of breathing, > along with a range of other meditations and Pali chanting. It > explores a range of texts, Sutta, Abhidhamma and a few Mahayana texts > to bring alive their relevance to contemporary practice. > > Interestingly, it's only Publication to date is "Abhidhamma Papers" > ed. by Mark Rowhands > http://www.samatha.demon.co.uk/ (click on Publications) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9214 From: Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 9:33pm Subject: Re: A tentative question --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Let me just stress right away, that 'my' kilesa (defilements) lead me into one > trap after another, even as I write about the dhamma. > > Hello Sarah and Christine, Your discussion has impressed upon me that the Dhamma is very much about finding ourselves, however incongruous that sounds. I remember reading about a sutta which used that sort of language, and I am trying to track it down again. Some young noblemen were too busy to listen to the Buddha because they were searching for a thief who had made off with their valuables. The Buddha asked them, `what do you want to do, find your possessions, or find your selves?' I've been immersed in `homework,' over the last couple of weeks, and will be glad to get back into the discussions. Kind regards Ken H. 9215 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 9, 2001 11:39pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Hi All, First of all I like to thank Christine for this wonderful web sites. Another wonderful site to study the Abidhamma. When I read its introduction, I find that maybe I have not a clear picture of cetasikas. This is written in its introduction "The term cetasika (paragraph three) was also discussed, and one major difficulty proved to be finding a suitable translation - as for many terms in abhidhamma. The word comes from the same root as citta, 'cit', which means 'think'. '-ika' means 'belonging to'. Cetasika is that which supports citta. English has no adequate translation for the word. 'Property' of mind has too many connotations of possession to be accurate. In this book we have used the translation 'mental factor'; if rather meaningless, it is at least neutral. But other words can also be used to give the feel of the term, such as the translation 'ingredients' used in the present essay." I hope some of you here would kindly explain more of this term. Quotes from commetary will be very helpful and appreciated. Much thanks Ken O 9216 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 2:00am Subject: Re: A tentative question - Ken Dear Ken, Thank you for sharing that information about the Chinese Sangha method of learning and practice......I have heard of similar instructions being given to westerners when they begin a long retreat (months to years). They are forbidden to read anything. I think it is because we live in our heads too much and can mistake unmindful thinking/reading/discussing for practice. I like what you said about the impossibility of controlling thoughts - that, I've always known - the Mahasi method involves gently mentally noting the thought, sound ,whatever that captures the mind, and the mind then recalls the meditation object.(breath, rising and falling of the abdomen). But, about Sarahs' allusion to 'no control'......I wonder if it covers a much wider field. Thoughts arise and attempting to control/suppress/blank them out is useless. Agreed. But is everything unable to be controlled or shaped to a desired result ? Wouldn't that mean we are just like flotsam on the ocean, washed unwillingly anywhere the tides take us....... metta, Christine "Sarah wrote: The other point I would stress, and I think this is really at the heart of your `quandry', is that really there is no self at all to determine at what time and on what occasions there will be `practice'. If there is an attempt to be aware of a particular object at a particular time, it shows the clinging to self to be a certain way and an idea that it is possible to control. As you've rightly mentioned before, it's not easy at all to give up an idea of self and control. When I was a serious meditator, I was encouraged by teachers and myown wrong views to think I was attaining high levels of insight and indeed I seemed to float around in a permanently calm state. I might still have been floating on Cloud Nine if it weren't for the help of K.Sujin and Nina who helped me see that there wasn't even any awareness of seeing and visible object or the difference between them. My practice which I clung to so dearly wasn't even at Ground Level because it was all undertaken with the idea of self and control." --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > to choose a method to practise is indeed a very difficult choice. This is > I think the most difficult is to start to learn Buddhism that of one > inclinations. My experience of learning is based on the traditional > Chinese Sangha method where one stick to a few suttas for five years. To > stick a few suttas for five years is I think a very difficult thing to do. > Once in a while, I tends to read others but the focus is still the few > suttas basing our practise on these few suttas. Then after the teacher > will suggest us the other suttas to read other the five years discipline > approach. I think mine is very lucky, because the day I pick up a book on > Pure Land, it has been with me for six years. I am still practising now > with more clarity after I read more on Satipatthana and Abidhamma. The > logic given by one Chinese monk is that our mind is full of diverting > thoughts, by focusing on a few, one thoughts is less diverse, more focus. > Secondly, the monk say as one begin the Buddhism way, one will get confuse > easily if one read too many. Thirdly is that the Chinese believe that if > one understand one sutta, the rest of the sutta will be much more clearar. > > > Furthermore on the point of controlling, I think when I start the path, I > was also thinking of controlling my thoughts which I realise is also > incorrect bc thoughts cannot be control. They got to be let go or to be > investigate. To control something that was come from nowhere and goes to > nowhere to me is quite futile. > > These are just my personal experience which I like to share with you. To > me your keeness in learning the way is indeed much to be rejoice and > commendable. No matter what, we hope we could assist you in your path as > you have assisted us. Together let us strive with vigour. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 9217 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A tentative question - Ken Hi Christine But, about Sarahs' allusion to 'no control'......I wonder if it > covers a much wider field. Thoughts arise and attempting to > control/suppress/blank them out is useless. Agreed. But is > everything unable to be controlled or shaped to a desired > result ? Wouldn't that mean we are just like flotsam on the ocean, > washed unwillingly anywhere the tides take us....... This is a million dollar question. Are we willingly surrender our clinging so as to be in the "flotsam", is indeed a very difficult choice. Whether we should follow such a "flotsum" in a sense losing what we use to think as a self, losing our self control and do not know where the tide will bring us, I think for me, I would choose this path even though I do not know in the end where this tide will bring me to. Kind regards Ken O 9218 From: Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 7:40am Subject: Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body Dear Robert Epstein How are you? You wrote: "To me, one who believes that the psychophysical process is the beginning and ending of life and experience, is a materialist. This is not an insult, it just means that they believe that the physical reality of existence predominates in whether we have sentience or not. Without the body, consciousness is not possible." I think you are describing Gotama the Buddha and his Theravada disciples as materialists. The Buddha taught the Five Psychophysical Components of Existence (Pancakkhandhaa), one of them is, of course, physical reality. If you would recall, I have posted "Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation?!" (Message 6721, Sun Jul 22, 2001 5:23 pm) I produced the following quote: Section 53, Upaya Suttam, Upaya Vaggo, within Khandha Samyuttam, Khandha Vaggo, Samyutta Nikayo. The paragraph is as follows. "Yo, bhikkhave, evam vadeyya– `ahamaññatra rupam aññatra vedanaya aññatra saññaya aññatra sankharehi viññanassa agatim va gatim va cutim va upapattim va vuddhim va virulhim va vepullam va paññapessami'ti, netam thanam vijjati. Full Translation "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." The above discourse clearly states that "without the body, consciousness is not possible.(as you wrote in your post)" With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > A lot of these questions are skirting the issue which at least makes the > alternative view possible, which is whether there is a supernatural reality of > consciousness which exists independent of the body. > > Obviously, if consciousness is just a byproduct of being in a psychophysical > organism, then there is no question that all experience absolutely ceases at > death. If this were the case, there would be no reincarnation of one's > 'consciousness and/or karmas' from one lifetime to a new one, which then picks up > where the other one left off to keep working off those tendencies. > > It seems to me that some have suggested this here, in saying that the real meaning > of reincarnation is the birth and death of each citta in each moment, which is > picked up in essence by a following citta which continues its tendencies along. > > To me, one who believes that the psychophysical process is the beginning and > ending of life and experience, is a materialist. This is not an insult, it just > means that they believe that the physical reality of existence predominates in > whether we have sentience or not. Without the body, consciousness is not > possible. > > The alterative view is mysticism. That there is something that remains > independent of whether physical bodies are created or not. Even one who believes > that there are 'bodies' in other dimensions of existence that one can be reborn > into, are necessarily 'mystics' in the sense that they believe in the > supernatural. IE, they can get hit by a truck and wake up a moment later in > another realm of existence where they will still be conscious, as in the etheric > or mental body. > > Mahayana seems to be more directly acknowledging of the mystical or supernatural > dimension of experience. It speaks about the Buddha's past lives and what he was > doing, etc. There are references to past lives in Theravada too, I believe, > however, but it doesn't seem to be a necessary structure for belief. Mahayana > talks about 'direct transmission of mind' and things like that, which are not seen > in Theravada. There are more mystical categories, especially in Tibetan > Buddhism. > > If one doesn't even believe in the different dimensions that the Buddha talks > about in both the Tipitaka and Mahayana, I think that person is denying part of > the Buddha's clear speech. But when it comes to Parinibbana, there is still room > for controversy. > > However, it seems to me that those who are relatively certain that there is no > awareness, even unmodified pure awareness, after Parinibbana, are tending to think > that once the body is gone, experience is eradicated. I wonder if this reflects > somewhat the idea that there is no consciousness independent of a physical body, > or whether it just reflects the idea that once the kandhas have been laid to rest, > there is no condition for the arising of any more cittas? > > If the latter were the case, I don't see why some arahants would not just stop > having any experience or action even while the body was still there. In other > words, they could enter a kind of divine catatonia, where the sense organs and > mind were still functionally present, but simply refused to respond to any > external or internal stimuli, since there was no longer a notion of a self > reacting that would need to arise to do anything. This arahant would simply > whither, like plant that has been cut off at the root, and eventually the body, > being unused, would simply pass away. But this doesn't seem to be the experience > of any aranhants of record. > > What I am mainly trying to clarify is that it seems that there is a basic conflict > between those who believe that the Universe represents a kind of life-form in its > own right, and those who feel that we are sort of mistaken beings that showed up > through a kind of flaw of cause and effect, the rectification of which is the > eradication of same. The Universe as a life-form, of course, gets you into the > trouble of an ultimate divine entity. The alternate view has the problem of real > nullity, or nothingness. I keep trying to find a real middle ground, where there > is beingness, but without a being. And that, to me, is the middle path. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > =================== > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 11/8/01 1:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > > > I'll try to get hold of the pali to the sutta and if I do we might be > > > able to study it more. I didn't want to comment directly until I do. > > > I also wondered if you concurred with the definition given by > > > Nyanatiloka; I understand him to be representing the Theravada > > > correctly here. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I concur that he is definitely expressing the standard Theravadin > > commentarial position here. It is not for me to "agree" with that or not, > > because I certainly have no basis for evaluating it - I haven't any actual > > knowledge as to the nature of nibbana, let alone parinibbana. I would be very > > interested in getting a better understanding, from the tipitaka itself, and > > mainly the suttas, what the Buddha had to say. However, the one strong > > prejudice that I *do* have in the matter is that even if parinibbana does > > mark the complete termination of all the khandhas (which I definitely don't > > rule out), it is a termination that, in some fashion (and one not likely > > compatible with ordinary samsaric usage), does not constitute making "the > > state of the dead arahant" an absolute nullity equivalent to the usual > > materialist's notion of death. (Of course, in the foregoing, "the state of > > the dead arahant" is misleading language on several counts.) > > The sutta we were discussing *might* seem to suggest the following: > > (1) The living arahant already sees only anatta in "his/her self" and in all > > dhammas, and he/she neither grasps at or pushes away anything, is attached to > > nothing, seeing nothing anywhere as substantial or personal or truly > > satisfactory, and no longer is (i.e. no longer has the seeming of being) a > > "being", and (2) upon death, the functions of sight, hearing, touch, taste, > > and smell, their associated mindstates, and their associated objects no > > longer arise. (Whether or not, motivated by compassion, these functions can > > be reacquired is a separate question. Apparently, Theravada says "no"and > > Mahayana says "yes".) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > best wishes > > > robert > > > > > ============================ > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9219 From: Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body Hi, Suan (and Robert) - In a message dated 11/10/01 10:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, abhidhammika@y... writes: > "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would > declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being > born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, > without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, > the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." > > The above discourse clearly states that "without the body, > consciousness is not possible.(as you wrote in your post)" > > =========================== There are two comments I would make with regard to these. The more specific one is that supposedly the Buddha did speak of realms where there is vi~n~nana but not rupa. The more general comment is that exactly what is meant by 'rupa' is quite important here. One view is that rupa is material substance, existing "out there" quite independently of being able to be observed, and, somehow, observable by mind. (Whether or not that "mind" is an epiphenomenon of such externally existing matter when organized properly is a separate question). But another view is that rupa is merely the objective pole of subject-object discernment (with "mind" being the subjective pole), not existing as an independent, self-existing principle, but existing only as an aspect of the discernment operation, artificially isolated by the reification tendency of worldling (just as the "mind" is so isolated). In this view, consciousness of rupa does not imply an independent, se;f-existing rupa. To be aware of the two aspects, subjective and objective, of the discernment process without reifying either is, I think, a bit of wisdom. Getting back to the main point: The quoted material above seems to merely say that there is no discernment unless it is discernment of matter, feeling, memory, or other. There is no question that whatever is discerned are aspects of the five khandhas. but that doesn't imply that there is ruled out states in which discernment of memories, concepts, thoughts, mental feelings, emotions, etc occurs without any visual, auditory, gustatory, or olfactory discernment occurring. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a0 phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9220 From: Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body Hi, all - I forgot tactile discernment in the following. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/10/01 12:01:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Getting back to the main point: The quoted material above seems to > merely say that there is no discernment unless it is discernment of matter, > > feeling, memory, or other. There is no question that whatever is discerned > are aspects of the five khandhas. but that doesn't imply that there is > ruled > out states in which discernment of memories, concepts, thoughts, mental > feelings, emotions, etc occurs without any visual, auditory, gustatory, or > olfactory discernment occurring. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9221 From: Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Hi Ken, If you have time, check out Nina's book, Cetasika, esp. on the introduction page. Her book is online at http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas2.html Nina put an analogy of the king and his retinues (from Atthasalini) as for the relation between citta and cetasika. This is an excellent book. You also reminded me of a conversation in Milindapanha. Hence said the reverend Nagasena : "A difficult thing, sire, has been done by the Blessed One. What difficult thing reverend Nagasena has been done by the Blessed One? A difficult thing, sire, has done by Blessed One when he declared the determination of these immaterial states, mind and its coefficients, which have arisen in one object, saying, this is contact, this is feeling, this is perception, this is volition, this is mind." The more I read and study, the more I know how little I know. Best wishes and anumodhana in your study. Num 9222 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body Hi Suan and Robert Ep How does one explain the immaterial-sphere plane as against to the idea that conscious need rupa to be in existence? Kind regards Ken O 9223 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Hi Num, I have read a few chapters of the book. I wish to have a more thorough understanding of this term (just this term only :)). I think commentary will be of great help when I ask Sarah why cittas must be sequential and I ask Amara in DL list abt Sanna. the commentaries they quoted indeed help me to understand the intracies of such meaning of pali words. As i do not understand pali, hence a thorough definition of this term will be very meaning to me. I have also read cetasikas defintion from the book by Bhikkhu Bodhi. But I feel there is a lack of thorough presentation to this term which I feel of paramount importance to our development as panna is a cetasika. As I do not have the commentaries, a few quotes to me will be indeed very appreciative. Kind regards Ken O --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Hi Ken, > > If you have time, check out Nina's book, Cetasika, esp. on the > introduction > page. > Her book is online at http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas2.html > > Nina put an analogy of the king and his retinues (from Atthasalini) as > for > the relation between citta and cetasika. This is an excellent book. > > You also reminded me of a conversation in Milindapanha. > > Hence said the reverend Nagasena : > > "A difficult thing, sire, has been done by the Blessed One. > > What difficult thing reverend Nagasena has been done by the Blessed One? > > A difficult thing, sire, has done by Blessed One when he declared the > determination of these immaterial states, mind and its coefficients, > which > have arisen in one object, saying, this is contact, this is feeling, > this is > perception, this is volition, this is mind." > > > The more I read and study, the more I know how little I know. > > Best wishes and anumodhana in your study. > > > Num 9224 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:21pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas Dear Ken, I hesitate to offer yet another link....:-) but I operate on the belief that if the same things are said in two or three different ways, sometimes there is a "Eureka!" response and understanding can occur. There is a set of five lessons on Introduction to Abhidhamma Studies at "The Learning Site" in Cyberspace. The Lessons are: Lesson 1 Introduction Lesson 2 The Compendium of Consciousness Lesson 3 The Compenium of Mental Factors (cetasikas) Lesson 4 Continuation of Lesson 3 Lesson 5 Rounding up of Lessons 1 - 4 Link to Summary The lessons are at the very bottom of the Homepage....just above the picture of the elephant in the river at sunset in Sri Lanka. metta, Christine a bit about 'where the study group is coming from': "Since we are a Study Group in the Theravada Buddhist tradition, most of the material herein presented will be from the "inside" as it is upheld by the Theravada Orthodoxy. The textbook we will use is the Abhidhammatta Sangraha, an introductory manual for new students and monks alike. The text is ascribed to Acarya Anuruddha but details of his time and whereabouts are not known for certain although it became a most influential textbook. Recent(well known) translations of the text were made by the late Ven. Mahathera Narada. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and Ven. U Rewata Dhamma of Burma in 1993; 2000. Although this class is based on the Theravada Orthodoxy, there is consideration of Modern Critical Scholarship in dialogue with it as well as interpolated opinions of other schools. For instance, Bhikkhu Dhammajoti translated Skandhila's Abhidharmavatara entitled "Entrance into the Supreme Doctrine" (which is extant only in Chinese) which has many very useful points and will therefore be consider at the appropriate time." http://skybusiness.com/buddh/ --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Num, > > I have read a few chapters of the book. I wish to have a more thorough > understanding of this term (just this term only :)). I think commentary > will be of great help when I ask Sarah why cittas must be sequential and I > ask Amara in DL list abt Sanna. the commentaries they quoted indeed help > me to understand the intracies of such meaning of pali words. As i do not > understand pali, hence a thorough definition of this term will be very > meaning to me. I have also read cetasikas defintion from the book by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. But I feel there is a lack of thorough presentation to > this term which I feel of paramount importance to our development as panna > is a cetasika. As I do not have the commentaries, a few quotes to me will > be indeed very appreciative. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 9225 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 10:51pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhammavicaya IV --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > k: When the verse imply that is no sufferer - to me it would imply that > we have understand reality. Then where is suffering to be found. On one > hand we are talking abt anatta (no sufferer), on the other we are not > viewing suffering as anatta (suffering exist). To me this is an incorrect > perspective. Both are anatta. Dear Kenneth, To me if you see suffering as 'only anatta', you are in an annihilationist mode. If you see suffering as a 'real existing event' then you are in the mode of asserting that a dharma exists as an actual entity. Both are wrong. If you see that suffering has no real permanent being [anatta/anicca] but that the experience of suffering is still a real *experience* which cannot be denied, then, to me, you are in the middle way. You deny the ultimate reality of the suffering, but you acknowledge the present pain that it causes, and you help the sufferer both ultimately, but also provisionally right now. Regards, Robert Ep. 9226 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 11:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard Dear Sarah, I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your points here, once again. I have been enjoying being engaged with these micro-topics within the discernment of realities, and I appreciate all of your interesting insights. I am a little slower lately in picking up threads and responding. Unfortunately I have gotten a little overwhelmed and I may lose my reputation for being voluminous [a great relief to all!]. But I am still following as best I can, and I really enjoy our cyber-colloquies. Thanks for your kind remarks as well. It's strange that so much dhamma friendship can exist over the internet, but it just shows that the means of understanding and communication are not dependent on any particular physical conditions. The little look I've been getting at the reality of cittas and cetasikas is pretty fascinating. I'll look foward to continuing these exchanges. More comments below: ============================ --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for being so welcoming to my questions. I very much appreciate your > > thoughtful answers, and it is also a pleasure to converse on these questions, > > which as you said, are so 'directly related to....realities to be known now.' > .................... > > S:Thanks Rob. We seem to post at the same time every day (for me, it’s late > lunch-time, for you it must be about 2am!.....) I’m pretty ‘addicted’ to your > daily ‘splash’ of posts too;-) > .................... Thanks. I'm sorry for being a little less present lately. My life has caught up with me!! Help! > S: Like those ingredients in the curry, all the skilful mental factors have to > intereact together, perform their own functions and condition each other and > the citta and vice versa. This is a good metaphor and is helpful. I like the idea of the 'flavors' of the different factors affecting each other and interacting. This makes a lot of sense. Let me ask one question: would you say that the citta is like a window, a sort of open door of awareness, through which the cetasikas perform more specific acts? I am getting the feeling that the real intelligence is carried by the cetasikas, that they do the work, and the citta is more of a passive opening of awareness through which they function. ......... Of course, if there isn’t precise awareness of a > reality itself, there cannot be awareness of the ‘momentary arising’ or > ‘ceasing’ or that reality. That’s why there has to be the clear distinction > between different realities and in particular between namas and rupas first. As > you suggest, sati has to develop and be aware of these realities more and more > precisely. I still appreciate that basic idea you expressed about this the other day: that the first thing to look at is the distinction between namas and rupas in a general way. If you are having several moments of an experience you can keep looking at what it is and try to distinguish its basic area of reality. This is confusing enough and a good place to start. Then i guess you can try to get a sense of the types of qualities or functions that are present. ........ > S:Realities have no entity in the sense of a self, but they still ‘exist’ and > have characteristics which can be known when they arise briefly. I don’t think > we can say namas or rupas ‘dwell’ anywhere, and although we can talk about the > importance of eye-base or heart-base for seeing or thinking to arise, at the > moment of awareness of seeing or thinking, there’s no idea of eye-base or > heart-base. We know from our studies however, that without these various bases > and doorways and other conditions, there couldn’t be seeing or thinking. In > this way, reading about these details (all found in ‘Abhidhamma in Daily > Life’), helps to get rid of wrong views and ideas of self controlling rather > than conditions ‘forming up’ realities. So it is more for the view than for the detail that these mechanics are important. One can see that on various levels, anicca and anatta are the functional principles? ......... > S:Big bow... You bring out the best in us all, Rob...and we’re very fortunate > to have you around.. That is so very kind. I feel very lucky to have these exchanges. It's a pleasure to be here! Best, Robert Ep. 9227 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- > Dear Robert Ep., > I think if you read Abhidhamma in Daily life(Nina van Gorkom) this > will make these matters clearer. You can read it on the internet at > several different sites. > In the arupa Brahma planes there is no physical base, there is no > materialty at all, there are only citta and cetasika. The Buddhas > earlier teachers are now in these worlds, they had developed the > jhanas that give the result to arise here and they thought that this > was nibbana and that they were fully enlightened. > robert Thanks, Rob. This is a helpful clarification. So the philosophy does include the idea of supernatural planes of existence. They just aren't seen as the 'real deal' and still contain seeds of future suffering. Best, Robert Ep. 9228 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A tentative question - Ken --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Ken, > > Thank you for sharing that information about the Chinese Sangha > method of learning and practice......I have heard of similar > instructions being given to westerners when they begin a long retreat > (months to years). They are forbidden to read anything. I think it is > because we live in our heads too much and can mistake unmindful > thinking/reading/discussing for practice. > > I like what you said about the impossibility of controlling thoughts - > that, I've always known - the Mahasi method involves gently mentally > noting the thought, sound ,whatever that captures the mind, and the > mind then recalls the meditation object.(breath, rising and > falling of the abdomen). > > But, about Sarahs' allusion to 'no control'......I wonder if it > covers a much wider field. Thoughts arise and attempting to > control/suppress/blank them out is useless. Agreed. But is > everything unable to be controlled or shaped to a desired > result ? Wouldn't that mean we are just like flotsam on the ocean, > washed unwillingly anywhere the tides take us....... I think that's the implication, Christine. We are not entities who have the control we think we do, but we experience events and react to them according to a variety of factors to which we are passive. Some of Buddhist philosophies are divided on to what extent, or whether, there is actual volition in the human being. The point of view that I believe exists in Abhidhamma is that since there is no 'self' to have a will or intent of its own and exercise it through volitional acts, the idea of exerting control is an illusion of mind. If I am wrong, I am sure I will be corrected by those who are more expert here. Best, Robert Ep. 9229 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body --- abhidhammika@y... wrote: > "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would > declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being > born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, > without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, > the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." > > The above discourse clearly states that "without the body, > consciousness is not possible.(as you wrote in your post)" Dear Suan, Where does this leave the existence of the other non-physical planes of existence, and the Buddha's various discussions of reincarnation? Best Regards, Robert Ep. 9230 From: Binh Anson Date: Sat Nov 10, 2001 11:58pm Subject: A new mirror site for BuddhaSasana web page G'day, The Buddhasasana web page has an additional mirror site at: ==> http://buddhanet.net/budsas Please come and have a look. Let me know if you have any problem. To date, BuddhaSasana web site is stored at 3 separate locations: Main site: http://www.budsas.org Mirror site 1: http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom Mirror site 2: http://buddhanet.net/budsas I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Bhante Pannyavaro and David Bassin of the BuddhaNet host for generous assistance. Metta, ===== Binh ANSON - Perth, Western Australia http://www.budsas.org & http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom 9231 From: Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 0:22am Subject: Re: Nibbana --- Dear Rob. E., Yes: except that supernatural is not a good term. These planes are entirely natural, just different from our plane. As you say they are still dukkha, still anicca. After 1000's of aeons the beings here die and are reborn in other planes. In fact, in the long samsara all of us must have been lived in these rarified existences at least a few times. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > > --- > > Dear Robert Ep., > > I think if you read Abhidhamma in Daily life(Nina van Gorkom) this > > will make these matters clearer. You can read it on the internet at > > several different sites. > > In the arupa Brahma planes there is no physical base, there is no > > materialty at all, there are only citta and cetasika. The Buddhas > > earlier teachers are now in these worlds, they had developed the > > jhanas that give the result to arise here and they thought that this > > was nibbana and that they were fully enlightened. > > robert > > Thanks, Rob. > This is a helpful clarification. So the philosophy does include the idea of > supernatural planes of existence. They just aren't seen as the 'real deal' and > still contain seeds of future suffering. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 9232 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 1:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A tentative question Dear Christine, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Sorry, I wasn't clear - it means "not feeling able to > compare favourably to, in the expression of knowledge or skill" the > other members of this List. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Thanks for replying back and considering my comments so carefully. (Actually, you were clear and I was just showing my ignorance and not being 'up to speed') It seems to me that your posts are much appreciated by us all. If I find myself thinking and comparing like in your quote, it’s usually our old friend (or rather foe) of mana (conceit) popping up again I find... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: I appreciate your explanation of the two traps - > 'meditation' and 'abhidhamma'. But I wonder if it is almost a > necessary stage to pass through - spending some time in the trap > before one recognises the constriction and steps out? > .......Is it a trap - or is it a temporary raft? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I see moments of wise consideration and reflection and any awareness or other wholesome states as being very beneficial and productive, regardless of whether we are or were ‘meditating’, ‘studying abhidhamma’ or ‘playing tennis’ when they arose. On the contrary, any unskilful states (including moments of wrong view and ignorance) in these ‘situations’ merely ensnare ‘us’ further. Mike wrote a helpful post, I thought, a while back (2458), saved under ‘Anatta’ in Useful Posts which I’ll quote from below: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ‘Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises, whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated, whether dhammas are investigated or not, or buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE in the arising, or the cultivation, or the investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be, or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or the other depending on how much of each has accumulated. I think that's why right effort is defined by its outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to: the going down of unskilled states already arisen; the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen; the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and the continuation, development and perfection of skilled states already arisen. (sorry I can't cite the source of this translation) No one choosing or intending in any of these--just cause, and effect. So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions, internal and external, allow us to do, and not otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just wisdom at work--not 'us'. ‘ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: May I ask if your first Buddhist teacher Munindra is the > same Munindra who was the teacher of Joseph Goldstein and Lama Surya > Das? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Yes, that would be right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: I don't think it was 'structure in our day' so much > as 'structure in my learning and practice'. There is so much > information and opinion on the Internet. As a beginner, it is > difficult initially to find a way of knowing what is worthwhile to > study and what is not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Again, I think it’s not so much a matter of choices and dilemmas, but of developing understanding. As your quote and detail about panna suggests (appreciated but snipped for now), what is important is to develop understanding of realities. At any moment of direct understanding, there isn’t any concern about what is right or wrong to be ‘doing’ at this moment, because it just understands the characteristic appearing. We’re really all beginners and what each of us may study (in a book sense) or not will depend on so many conditions. I understand your concern from a conventional point of view, however. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: I am familiar with the terms Impermanence, Suffering and > Not-Self - but No Control is not so familiar. Could you quote some > references please? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I think it’s a matter of interpretation and understanding when we read (the same) suttas. When I read about realities or about not-self, I understand them to be about ‘No control’. For example, I've just been reading from The Life of the Buddha by B.Nanamoli: ‘The discourse on the Not-Self characteristic’ ‘Bhikkhus, material form is not self. If material form were self, this material form would not lead to affliction, and it could be had of material form: Let my material form be thus; let my material form be not thus. And it is because material form is not self that it leads to affliction, and that it cannot be had of material form: Let my material form be thus: let my material form be not thus... ‘Feeling is not self... ‘Perception is not self... ‘Formations are not self... Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to affliction and it could be had of consciousness: let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness be not thus. And it is because consciousness is not self that it therefore leads to affliction, and that it cannot be had of consciousness: Let my consciousnes be thus; let my consciousness be not thus...........’ (Vin, Mv. Kh; cf S.X11,59) The following paragraph and Visuddhimagga quote are from a post of Rob K’s saved under ‘Anatta’:(5265) which you may find it useful to review as well: ‘XX47 talks about sankhara khanda (the agrregate of formations) this includes all cetasikas except feeling and sanna. It includes sati, intention, effort, metta, dosa etc. "they are void of the possibilty of any power being exercised over them, they are therefore not-self beacuse void, because owner less, because unsusceptible to the weilding of power, and because of precluding a self". This last quote may disturb some because if nothing is controllable then "what the hell can we do?!!!" This sort of reaction is rooted in "we" - it comes from an assumption of self and control. Now for the good news: vis.xvi "there IS a path but no goer". This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it is itself conditioned. What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Much of what I am learning is from contact with people on > the List, whether directly or as the stimulus to search further. > > The benefits of having admirable people as friends - > "When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and > colleagues, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, > easily and without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and > conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on having few > wants, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing > persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, > and on the knowledge and vision of release. > "When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and > colleagues, it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence > aroused for abandoning unskillful qualities, and for taking on > skillful qualities -- steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking > his duties with regard to skillful qualities. > "When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, and > colleagues, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed > with discernment of arising and passing away -- noble, penetrating, > leading to the right ending of stress." > > -- Ud IV.1 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Thanks for this wonderful sutta. I think we’re all ‘here’ because at some level and for some parts of the day, we appreciate the value of having ‘admirable people as friends’. I really learn a lot from everyone here and writing is a condition for more useful consideration too. We’re all fortunate nowadays to have this internet access. You’ve mentioned once or twice about living in rather isolated surroundings in terms of othe dhamma students or practitioners. Of course, the Buddha encourages us all to really learn to live alone with the objects experienced through the 6 senses: ‘There are, Migajala, sounds cognizable by the ear..odours cognizable by the nose..tastes cognizable by the tongue..tactile objects cognizable by the body..mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them..he is called alone dweller. ‘Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and felmale lay follower, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore his is called a lone dweller.” (SN, Bk of 6 Sense Bases.63, B.Bodhi trans) May we all continue with the help of ‘admirable friends’ to learn to truly live ‘alone’. Christine, I think these are all really useful areas for discussion and I look forward to hearing your further thoughts. Best wishes, Sarah 9233 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 5:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > Is there a particular area in the commentaries that is translated, that > shows how > the scheme you have explained below is derived from the Suttas on the 4 > Noble > Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path? > > I would like to see how this interpretation of the Path was conceived. Rob, I appreciate your wanting to trace this interpretation back to a particular passage or passages in the suttas. However, I don't think this can be done, in the sense that you are asking about. This is not to say that the commentaries are purely a product of the compiler's mind. Rather, the commentaries represent an explanation of the sutta text pitched at a level that is comprehensible to those whose understanding is not of the same level as that of the Buddha's original audience. I will try to explain what I mean by this. A person who is able to fully understand a complex and highly detailed scientific principle may, in order to make the principle intelligible to lay-people, explain it using a kind of language and detail that on the face of it differs from that used by the scientist who discovered the principle and expounded it to the scientific community. This does not make the explanation in layman's terms any less the principle as expounded by its discoverer. Similarly, as I understand it, the commentaries are merely an exposition in more detailed form of what was actually said by the Buddha, given by those who have fully grasped the teaching. There are several passages in the commentaries that assume or directly support the interpretation I have given. Indeed, I believe this interpretation has been the accepted one until comparatively recent times. The current day notion of the Noble Eightfold Path as being a prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path factors is to be developed separately and individually, somehow culminating in supramundane consciousness, is not as far as I know found in any of the ancient commentaries. I think also that there are a number of contextual 'clues' in the suttas that point to the interpretation I have given. I have mentioned some of these before, but perhaps this would be a good time to recap. 1. The Noble Eightfold Path is given as one of the Four Noble Truths. The significance of this is perhaps not always appreciated. The Four Noble Truths are *understandings to be realised*, and this applies as much to the 4th truth (the Noble Eightfold Path) as it does the other 3 truths. As such (ie. a truth to be realised) it is descriptive of a moment of attainment rather than a way of practice leading to that attainment. (Likewise, the Four Noble Truths are given as one of the ‘mental objects’ of the development of satipatthana in the Satipatthana Sutta. This again shows their nature as ‘truths to be realised’ by one who is developing awareness). 2. It is a 'path' in the sense that once this moment has been experienced final enlightenment is inevitable in the fullness of time. Prior to the first of the 4 stages of enlightenment (ie. at the mundane level), attainment to final enlightenment is not assured. The texts refer to one who has attained to stream entry as a *'path-winner'* or 'trainer', whereas one who has not attained to a moment of supramundane experience is referred to as an ‘uninstructed worldling’. So it is not a path in the sense of being a 'path of practice' for the worldling, as the term seems to be understood nowadays. 3. The Four Noble Truths, with the Noble Eightfold Path as the 4th, are given as the culmination of the so-called 'gradual instruction' (anupubbii-kathaa -- see entry from Buddh. Dict. pasted below) found throughout the suttas. As I understand it, the teaching of the gradual instruction was in many cases followed by the enlightenment of the listener, that is to say, without any period of 'practice' between hearing the 4th Noble Truths about the Noble Eightfold Path and the attainment of enlightenment. 5. The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are also given as 'factors for enlightenment' (bodhipakkhiya-dhamma, lit. 'things pertaining to enlightenment', of which there are 37 in 7 groups -- see entry from Buddh. Dict. pasted below). If the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, developed individually and separately, are the path to enlightenment, what is the significance of the other 29 factors? And why is the Noble 8-fold Path given as the last of the 7 groups of factors? 6. Finally, a general comment on the view that the Noble Eightfold Path is a prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path factors are to be developed separately and individually, somehow culminating in supramundane consciousness. If that were so, then it would mean that each of the path factors (except for right view) could be developed, and indeed is presumably even now being developed, by persons who have never heard of the dhamma. I say this because, taking 'right effort' as an example, people who have never heard the dhamma do exert conventional effort to have more kusala. I can see no difference between this person and the dhamma practitioner who likewise exerts conventional effort to have more kusala -- or am I missing something here? > Also, is there a part of the commentaries that explains the discovery of > one citta > arising at a time and passing on its attributes to the next citta, based > on a > particular aspect of parts of the Suttas? I would like to understand > from where > this was derived as well by the Arahats that composed the commentaries. The 'single stream of cittas' concept is I believe found in or derived from the abhidhamma, although it is of course entirely consistent with everything found in the suttas. There may be some passages in the suttas that imply this, but I am not aware of any at the moment. Rob, I don't know if I have addressed the exact point you were interested in -- I do hope I have. Jon From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' ánupubbí-kathá: 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dána), on moral conduct (síla) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhánam sámukkamsiká desaná), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." bodhipakkhiya-dhammá: The 37 'things pertaining to enlightenment', or 'requisites of enlightenment' comprise the entire doctrines of the Buddha. They are: the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.), the 4 right efforts (s. padhána), the 4 roads to power (iddhi-páda, q.v.), the 5 spiritual faculties (indriya; s. bala), the 5 spiritual powers (bala, q.v.), the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), the Noble 8-fold Path (s. magga). 9234 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 5:57am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhammavicaya IV Hi Robert Ep, Conventionally speaking when there is sufferer then there is suffering since the verse which I interpret is talking abt absolute then anatta should be consistently be apply to such a verse. To me by mixing both convention and absolute terms in a verse, then it is going to be confusing. Suffering is also anatta bc no one owns them, nor does it have a self entity on its own. It is experience bc we are still sufferer even if we have mundane right understanding of anatta, until the time we reach arahant. Kind regards Ken O --- Robert Epstein wrote: > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > k: When the verse imply that is no sufferer - to me it would imply > that > > we have understand reality. Then where is suffering to be found. On > one > > hand we are talking abt anatta (no sufferer), on the other we are not > > viewing suffering as anatta (suffering exist). To me this is an > incorrect > > perspective. Both are anatta. > > Dear Kenneth, > To me if you see suffering as 'only anatta', you are in an > annihilationist mode. > If you see suffering as a 'real existing event' then you are in the mode > of > asserting that a dharma exists as an actual entity. Both are wrong. > > If you see that suffering has no real permanent being [anatta/anicca] > but that the > experience of suffering is still a real *experience* which cannot be > denied, then, > to me, you are in the middle way. You deny the ultimate reality of the > suffering, > but you acknowledge the present pain that it causes, and you help the > sufferer > both ultimately, but also provisionally right now. > > Regards, > Robert Ep. 9235 From: manji Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:04am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body This does not limit citta to a body. What it does say is that "whoever might say that the dhamma has ceased, this cannot be so." As to citta arising with non-physical planes of existence, just mere though of existence implies citta. Smushing citta together into "consciousness" might be misleading, there are many citta, arising falling, passing one to the next. Even in daily life, sometimes there is citta at "mind door". I am thinking of saying that sometimes citta is confused with certain cetasika... But that is for later discussion. :) Walk softly, manji -----Original Message----- From: Robert Epstein [mailto:epsteinrob@Y...] Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 2:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body --- abhidhammika@y... wrote: > "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would > declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being > born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, > without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, > the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." > > The above discourse clearly states that "without the body, > consciousness is not possible.(as you wrote in your post)" Dear Suan, Where does this leave the existence of the other non-physical planes of existence, and the Buddha's various discussions of reincarnation? Best Regards, Robert Ep. 9236 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- > Dear Rob. E., > Yes: except that supernatural is not a good term. These planes are > entirely natural, just different from our plane. > As you say they are still dukkha, still anicca. After 1000's of aeons > the beings here die and are reborn in other planes. In fact, in the > long samsara all of us must have been lived in these rarified > existences at least a few times. > best wishes > robert I agree. My question was as to whether Abhidhamma included a belief in 'non-physical' reality, in other words, planes beyond the material world. I used 'supernatural' in worldly terms, because from the materialist standpoint, such planes certainly would be. But I understand and agree that in terms of manifest realities that beings experience there is no inherent difference between a physical plane and an extra-physical one, other than the idea that they may have different laws or durations. Robert Ep [the 'other' Robert - wasn't there a third one here, what happened to him?] 9237 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:21am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhammavicaya IV --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert Ep, > > Conventionally speaking when there is sufferer then there is suffering > since the verse which I interpret is talking abt absolute then anatta > should be consistently be apply to such a verse. To me by mixing both > convention and absolute terms in a verse, then it is going to be > confusing. > > Suffering is also anatta bc no one owns them, nor does it have a self > entity on its own. It is experience bc we are still sufferer even if we > have mundane right understanding of anatta, until the time we reach > arahant. Yes, I would agree that it is the definition of self as sufferer that allows suffering to be experienced as suffering, and particularly as suffering that is happening to 'someone'. On his deathbed, dying of cancer, the great Advaita master Nisargardatta was asked if he was in great pain. He replied: "There is great pain, but it is not mine." Even at the moment of death, he was clear that there was no self to suffer. Regards, Robert 9238 From: Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:29am Subject: Re: Nibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Robert Ep > [the 'other' Robert - wasn't there a third one here, what happened to him?] +++++++++\ Actually I wrote Rob Eddison a private letter a couple of days ago. Hope he is ok; the last time he wrote he mentioned he had been ill. He lives in Iceland I believe. rob k. 9239 From: Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:03am Subject: Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body Dear Robert Epstein, Howard, Kenneth Ong, and Manji How are you, Dhamma friends? Howard wrote: "The more specific one is that supposedly the Buddha did speak of realms where there is vi~n~nana but not rupa." Ken wrote: "How does one explain the immaterial-sphere plane as against to the idea that conscious need rupa to be in existence?" Robert wrote: "Where does this leave the existence of the other non-physical planes of existence, and the Buddha's various discussions of reincarnation?" Manji also wrote along the same lines. Well, friends, I have expected that you would ask the above question. To attain the Aruupa Bhuumi (non-physical planes, or immaterial- sphere plane), one must first start as a human being who, of course, has the body as part of the Five Khandhas. Aruupa bhuumi is merely a rebirth state experienced by an attainer of Aruupa jhaanas. The absence of physical body for an Aruupa god is the result of the kamma power of an Aruupa jhaana. As soon as that kamma power is used up, he was reborn with a physical body. He can't escape from the BONDAGE of physical reality. In a sense, we can think of the absence of physical body in Aruupa bhuumi as merely suspended limbo state which is regarded as nibbana by pre-Buddhist ascetics (including the Buddha's two Aruupa jhaana teachers), but which is regarded by the Buddha as a useless existence because one cannot practise the Noble Eightfold Path without the Five Khandhas with a physical body. Without attaining Aruupa jhaanas in this life from the venue of a human body, no one can be reborn as a bodyless god. The bodyless state in Aruupa bhuumi is merely an exceptional case made possible by obsessive wish of bodylessness through the power of Aruupa jhaanas. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- abhidhammika@y... wrote: > > > "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would > > declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being > > born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, > > without feeling, without memory, and without other mental components, > > the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." > > > > The above discourse clearly states that "without the body, > > consciousness is not possible.(as you wrote in your post)" > > Dear Suan, > Where does this leave the existence of the other non-physical planes of existence, > and the Buddha's various discussions of reincarnation? > > Best Regards, > Robert Ep. > 9240 From: Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 3:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/11/01 8:45:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, you give the best presentation yet for your understanding of the noble path! I think it is very well done and quite interesting. The only part of it I will comment on is the following, because it is the only part easy enough for me to say anything cogent about! ;-)) You write the following: > 6. Finally, a general comment on the view that the Noble Eightfold Path > is a prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path > factors are to be developed separately and individually, somehow > culminating in supramundane consciousness. If that were so, then it would > mean that each of the path factors (except for right view) could be > developed, and indeed is presumably even now being developed, by persons > who have never heard of the dhamma. I say this because, taking 'right > effort' as an example, people who have never heard the dhamma do exert > conventional effort to have more kusala. I can see no difference between > this person and the dhamma practitioner who likewise exerts conventional > effort to have more kusala -- or am I missing something here? > =============================== Actually, what I think may be what is described here is the practice and progress of a person who could eventually become a paccekabuddha. No? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9241 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > > Robert Ep > > [the 'other' Robert - wasn't there a third one here, what happened > to him?] > +++++++++\ > Actually I wrote Rob Eddison a private letter a couple of days ago. > Hope he is ok; the last time he wrote he mentioned he had been ill. > He lives in Iceland I believe. > rob k. I certainly hope he's okay as well. Best, Robert Ep. 9242 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nibbana: No Consciousness Without The Body Dear Suan, Thanks for your good explanation. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- abhidhammika@y... wrote: > > > Dear Robert Epstein, Howard, Kenneth Ong, and Manji > > How are you, Dhamma friends? > > Howard wrote: > > "The more specific one is that supposedly the Buddha did speak of > realms where there is vi~n~nana but not rupa." > > Ken wrote: > > "How does one explain the immaterial-sphere plane as against to the > idea that conscious need rupa to be in existence?" > > Robert wrote: > > "Where does this leave the existence of the other non-physical planes > of existence, and the Buddha's various discussions of reincarnation?" > > Manji also wrote along the same lines. > > Well, friends, I have expected that you would ask the above question. > > To attain the Aruupa Bhuumi (non-physical planes, or immaterial- > sphere plane), one must first start as a human being who, of course, > has the body as part of the Five Khandhas. Aruupa bhuumi is merely a > rebirth state experienced by an attainer of Aruupa jhaanas. The > absence of physical body for an Aruupa god is the result of the kamma > power of an Aruupa jhaana. As soon as that kamma power is used up, he > was reborn with a physical body. He can't escape from the BONDAGE of > physical reality. In a sense, we can think of the absence of physical > body in Aruupa bhuumi as merely suspended limbo state which is > regarded as nibbana by pre-Buddhist ascetics (including the Buddha's > two Aruupa jhaana teachers), but which is regarded by the Buddha as a > useless existence because one cannot practise the Noble Eightfold > Path without the Five Khandhas with a physical body. > > Without attaining Aruupa jhaanas in this life from the venue of a > human body, no one can be reborn as a bodyless god. > > The bodyless state in Aruupa bhuumi is merely an exceptional case > made possible by obsessive wish of bodylessness through the power of > Aruupa jhaanas. > > With regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- abhidhammika@y... wrote: > > > > > "Monks, whoever might thus say that he (I in Pali syntax) would > > > declare consciousness's coming, or going, or dying, or being > > > born, or growth, or development, or expansion, without matter, > > > without feeling, without memory, and without other mental > components, > > > the foundation (for that declaration) does not exist." > > > > > > The above discourse clearly states that "without the body, > > > consciousness is not possible.(as you wrote in your post)" > > > > Dear Suan, > > Where does this leave the existence of the other non-physical > planes of existence, > > and the Buddha's various discussions of reincarnation? > > > > Best Regards, > > Robert Ep. > > > > > > 9243 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa Dear Howard and Jon, This is the portion of Jon's good talk that also interested me quite a bit. I would say that there is a difference between one who attempts to cultivate kusala states without the benefit of Buddhist understandings, and someone who attempts to realize the steps of the Eightfold Path with an understanding of anatta, anicca and dukkha. It is the clarity of these distinctions that gives the context for Buddhist cultivation. This in itself, I don't think, necessitates a view of the 'real' 8-fold path as supramundane, although it doesn't speak against that possibility either. I tend to think that all beings are striving in their own way for liberation. Everyone has a subconscious drive to end delusion and suffering, and reach a place of freedom. And at some point in their journey, they will find the higher principles that will allow them to actually achieve liberation. Is there an inherent difference between Buddhists and non-Buddhists? As 'beings', I would say there isn't. We're all in the same boat. But Buddhism allows one to go beyond the final illusions of a separate or permenant self or entity. Just because all spiritual people are trying to cultivate kusala, to me neither dictates that Buddhists and non-Buddhists are inherently different, or inherently the same. To me, the question remains as to whether there is volition in the path, or whether the Eight-Fold path is a set of factors that occur only in Enlightenment. It seems sensible to me to think that the various mundane cultivations that non-enlightened Buddhists do in order to increase their awareness and see into realities are the necessary steps that lead to reaping the benefits of higher stages, even if these higher stages include a different level of the Eightfold factors, and even if the earlier efforts are not in fact volitional but only seem that way. I apologize for this circuitous discussion that doesn't really reach any conclusion. I also apologize for airing a few half-baked thoughts here which may not be very clear. For me, I would still like to know how the Arahats who wrote the commentaries derived their definition of the Noble Eightfold Path's path-factors at the moment of enlightenment from the Suttas, but it looks like I will have to read the commentaries myself at some point and see for myself, since the connection seems to be implied rather than explicit. Does anyone know how to reach Bikkhu Bodhi? Perhaps I should ask him what he thinks about this. I'm just kidding. Best, Robert Ep. =========================== --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 11/11/01 8:45:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, you give > the best presentation yet for your understanding of the noble path! I think > it is very well done and quite interesting. The only part of it I will > comment on is the following, because it is the only part easy enough for me > to say anything cogent about! ;-)) You write the following: > > > > > 6. Finally, a general comment on the view that the Noble Eightfold Path > > is a prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path > > factors are to be developed separately and individually, somehow > > culminating in supramundane consciousness. If that were so, then it would > > mean that each of the path factors (except for right view) could be > > developed, and indeed is presumably even now being developed, by persons > > who have never heard of the dhamma. I say this because, taking 'right > > effort' as an example, people who have never heard the dhamma do exert > > conventional effort to have more kusala. I can see no difference between > > this person and the dhamma practitioner who likewise exerts conventional > > effort to have more kusala -- or am I missing something here? > > > =============================== > Actually, what I think may be what is described here is the practice > and progress of a person who could eventually become a paccekabuddha. No? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9244 From: Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas <> Hi Ken, Let me reverse the order of things a little bit. I think I have to put in some definitions of citta to compare with cetasika. I am not sure I can really answer your question and not sure exactly what you want to know. This is good for me to review the material on this topic as well. I pretty much cut and paste from various books, ok. Pls pardon me for some Pali terms. Let me start with 1) Panna cetasika. From Nina's book: "The Atthasalini then gives another definition of understanding: Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a lamp; non perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in the forest. The Visuddhimagga (Chapter XIV, 143) gives a similar definition. " As Christine mentioned there are different levels of panna. There can only be direct understanding of realities when there is mindfulness of them. This is my idea, no matter how much we read or discuss, if there is no direct understanding at the moment of mindfulness, it is all pretty much panatti (conventional) level. As I understand the goal of study is not to know the theory or term but the reality. Studying, listening and discussing dhamma can condition understanding. As I mentioned earlier, for me, from the quote from Milindapanha, that it is hard to know the differences between the two. 2) Citta From Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin .."The 4 characteristics of citta are 1. Called "citta" because it experiences arammana clearly. 2. Called "citta" because it accumulates innate tendencies with the efficiency of javana-vithi. 3. Called "citta" because it is a reality where kamma and kilesa accumulate vipaka. 4. Every citta is called "citta" because of its complex and intricate nature according to the efficiency of the sampayutta-dhamma". Sampayutta-dhamma of citta is cetasika. From Atthasalini : "citta ….conizing object(aramana) is its characteristic, forerunning is its function, connecting is its manifestation, a mental(nama) and material(rupa) organism is its proximate cause. …" From Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin. "Citta is eminent and presiding in knowing or experiencing. In the Atthasalini Cittupadakandha there is a passage saying "Citta is the bhumi or place of origin of the sampayutta-dhamma such as happiness. If there were no citta, the happy feeling could not arise because there would be no basis, no point of origin for happiness. Whenever sukha-vedana arises, citta is the bhumi, the basis, the home of that sukha-vedana that arose with that citta. Therefore citta is the bhumi, the home of its sampayutta-dhamma, which are the sukha-vedana and other cetasika." Analogy from Milindapanha V.Nagasena "….. Just, sire, as the town-guard, seated at the cross-roads in middle of the town, would see a man coming from the west, the south, the north: so your majesty, the object seen by the eyes, the sound heard by the ear, the smell smelt by the nose, the taste tasted by the tongue, the tangible touched by the body, the idea cognized by the mind, is cognized by consciousness' (citta)". There for it is said to have the function of forerunning". 3) Cetasika From abhidhammattha sangaha "Cetasika = Ceta + s + ika That which is associated with mind or consciousness is cetasika. (Sanskrit - caitasika or caitti). Definition- Cetasika is (i) that which arises together with consciousness, (ii) that which perishes together with it, (iii) that which has an identical object with it, (iv) that which has a common basis with it." Another analogy from abhidhammattha sangaha, Thai version. In watercolor painting, citta is like water, cetasika is like colors. Only water alone cannot make the painting appear, nor only the color alone. When there are paper, water and color then the painting can appear on the paper or canvas, and of course the view or a model is like the object. (like conscious needs citta&cetasika, material base (vathu) and object(aramana) to arise). Hope I put something relevant to your question. Best wishes, Num 9245 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 4:29pm Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Thanks, Jon, Settled in nicely now, jet-lagged but very glad to be here. Got in on the English discussion Saturday and had the great good luck to have Khun Amara interpret the Thai talk and subsequent Foundation meeting (on anusaya) following. All quite exhilarating. Time on the computer here ties up the foundation phone line, so I limit it strictly. I'll try to get back into correspondence when I've located the local internet cafe. Best Wishes to All, mn --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > Have a good trip, or welcome to Bangkok, as the case > may be. I hope you > settle in well, and find good dhamma (I'm sure you > will). I look forward > to more of your very pertinent comments on the list > from Thailand. > > Jon > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi > Sarah, > > > > Just quickly, I noticed the same peculiarities you > > mentioned below. Also I think I'm beginning to > see a > > bias in Ven. Thanissaro's translations (toward > > breath-centrism) if I'm thinking of the right > guy--of > > course I'm no authority, but very good to compare > > translations. BB's are among the best I think > (most > > rigorous). > > > > Yes, off to BKK tomorrow. I'll post from there > when > > possible. > > > > Cheers, > > > > mn > > > > --- sarahdhhk@y... wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > I'm only now responding to a sutta you quoted on > the > > > 12th Oct, > > > because I've just come across other > translations. > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah and Howard, > > > > > > > Sarah, I may be wrong but I think the sutta > Howard > > > was > > > > referring to was the Samugatta/Nimitta Sutta > at > > > > Anguttara Nikaya III.103. Ven. Thanissaro's > > > > translation is at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-103.html > > > > > > > > I think it will be good if anyone can come up > with > > > any > > > > commentarial material on this sutta. > Intuitively > > > I > > > > can see how it might support Howard's argument > > > (much > > > > to my chagrin). > > > > > > Howard later mentioned (I think) that he hadn't > had > > > this particular > > > sutta in mind but thought it also discussed a > `pure' > > > mind, > > > blemished by defilements. (sorry, Howard if this > is > > > not a correct > > > paraphrase of your words.) > > > > > > The reason I couldn't find another translation > at > > > the time was > > > because as I now see, it is given the reference > of > > > 3-103 above, > > > but in both the PTS translation and in Bhikkhu > > > Bodhi's > > > translation, it is given the pali reference of > > > 3-100. Furthermore, > > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu changes the title of both the > > > Pali and > > > English from Samugatta Sutta: Arising-ness to > > > Nimitta > > > Sutta:Themes. BB titles it in English as `The > > > Refinement of the > > > Mind' and Woodward in the PTS translation as > > > `Gold-refiner'. No > > > wonder we are encourged to study the Pali;-) To > > > confuse matters > > > further, while the BB and PTS translations run > in > > > parallel and > > > follow the same order (presumably following the > Pali > > > order), > > > Thanissaro's order is quite different. It is > > > completely reorganised > > > and maybe this gives a very different emphasis, > I > > > don't know and > > > really can't comment further. I don't thin the > > > other translations > > > are on line as yet. > > > > > > Following BB's translation for now,the sutta > > > discusses the > > > different impurities in the gold. First the > gross > > > impurities have to > > > be removed and so on down to the minute > impurities. > > > Eventually > > > the flaws are finally removed and `whatever > ornament > > > the > > > goldsmith now wishes to make of it...the gold > can > > > now be used > > > for that purpose'. > > > > > > In the same way, `a monk devoted to the training > in > > > the higher > > > mind' abandons first the gross impurities such > as > > > `bad conduct > > > of body, speech and mind', then those of a > moderate > > > degree, > > > `namely, sensual thoughts, thoughts of ill will, > and > > > violent > > > thoughts'. After this, `there are still some > subtle > > > impurities that > > > cling to him, namely, thoughts about his > relatives, > > > his home > > > country and his reputation' and so on and so on > with > > > regard to > > > very fine impurities whilst attaining jhana > levels. > > > It goes on to > > > discuss the six abhi~n~naa (super-knowledges) > > > including the > > > 6th which is aasavakkhaya (destruction of the > > > taints).after > > > mastery of the 4th jhana. > > > > > > I think this sutta relates to the discussion > there's > > > been on dsg > > > about developing more understanding of more > subtle > > > defilements. As some people have mentioned, what > was > > > taken > > > as wholesome before is now seen as unwholesome > with > > > the > > > development of more understanding. Instead of > being > > > cause for > > > sorrow, this should be cause for joy. > > > > > > I don't read or understand any analogy to a pure > > > mind that has > > > been defiled. I just read an analogy to the > > > different layers of > > > defilements which need to be understood and > > > eradicated, step > > > by step. Furthermore, I don't read or understand > any > > > suggestion > > > of a `thing-to-do' or a 1st, 2nd , 3rd order. > The > > > natural way > > > understanding develops is to know the grosser, > more > > > obvious > > > defilements before the very subtle degrees. > Again it > > > is > > > descriptive rather than prescriptive. > > > > > > With regard to the `3 Themes' mentioned at the > start > > > of T's > > > translation, this part is not included at all in > > > BB's translation and > > > comes at the end of the PTS one. From this > > > translation I > > > understand that just as it's necessary to `blow' > on > > > the gold in the > > > crucible, it's also necessary to sprinkle it > with > > > water and examine > > > it closely. `In the same way are these 3 > > > characteristics to be > > > attended to from time to time by a monk who is > > > devoted to > > > developing the higher consciousness..his mind > > > becomes > > > pliable, workable, radiant, not stubborn, but > > > perfectly poised for > > > the destruction of the aasavas; and to whatever > > > branch of > > > special knowledge he may direct his mind for the > > > realization > > > thereof, he attains the power personally to > realize > > > such, whatever > > > be his range.' (reference to > abhi~n~ns, > > > I > > > understand)> > > > > > > Mike, I'm not sure if I've added anything as > there > > > aren't any > > > commentary notes. I sincerely hope that B.Bodhi > > > writes a full AN > > > (Gradual Sayings) collection with com. notes > like > > > the ones he's > > > done for MN and SN at least. > > > > > > Mike, I know you must be very busy getting ready > for > > > your trip to > > > Bangkok. We're thinking of you and wish you good > > > flights with > > > plenty of wise reflection and mindfulness. I'm > sure > > > everyone > > > hear will be very interested to hear any > comments > > > you care to > > > share about your impressions and discussions > after > > > you meet > > > Khun Sujin and friends in Bkk. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Sarah 9246 From: ppp Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:40am Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Hi, Mike: Nice to hear that you've sort of setteled in Bangkok. Good luck! tadao 9247 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 5:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Music Nina Thanks for this note which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina et al, > Dear Hermann, Christine, Sarah and friends, > > That is an expressive Email, I had to laugh. > I had conceit when I read that you pay attention to my music, there it > is > again: I and you. Conceit plays us many tricks. I appreciated the discussion we had in India about conceit. I think this particular form of akusala is much more prevalent than we realise. It is conceit that conditions much of the dosa when we get annoyed because of the way other people behave, especially perhaps in cases where the person’s behaviour has no impact on us personally. Even though there is no conscious comparing between oneself and the other, there is nonetheless an innate concept of ‘me’ and ‘you’. Thanks also for the many useful reminders in your note. Jon 9248 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Hi Num, Much thanks (I hungry for more info on cetasikas, if you have I would be most appreciative), just one simple question that seen to perplex me. Is the cetasikas (Vedana) that feels or it is the Citta that feel? My thinking was that cetasikas are just prism that filter and it is the cittas that knows the feeling and not vedana. For your advise please. Kind regards Ken O --- srnsk@a... wrote: > > < understanding of this term (just this term only :)). I think commentary > will be of great help when I ask Sarah why cittas must be sequential and > I > ask Amara in DL list abt Sanna. the commentaries they quoted indeed > help > me to understand the intracies of such meaning of pali words. As i do > not > understand pali, hence a thorough definition of this term will be very > meaning to me. I have also read cetasikas defintion from the book by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. But I feel there is a lack of thorough presentation to > this term which I feel of paramount importance to our development as > panna > is a cetasika. As I do not have the commentaries, a few quotes to me > will > be indeed very appreciative.>> > > > > Hi Ken, > > Let me reverse the order of things a little bit. I think I have to put > in > some definitions of citta to compare with cetasika. I am not sure I can > > really answer your question and not sure exactly what you want to know. > This > is good for me to review the material on this topic as well. I pretty > much > cut and paste from various books, ok. Pls pardon me for some Pali terms. > > > Let me start with > > 1) Panna cetasika. > > From Nina's book: > "The Atthasalini then gives another definition of understanding: > Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering > penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot > by a > skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a > > lamp; non perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in > the > forest. > The Visuddhimagga (Chapter XIV, 143) gives a similar definition. " > > As Christine mentioned there are different levels of panna. There can > only be > direct understanding of realities when there is mindfulness of them. > This is > my idea, no matter how much we read or discuss, if there is no direct > understanding at the moment of mindfulness, it is all pretty much > panatti > (conventional) level. As I understand the goal of study is not to know > the > theory or term but the reality. Studying, listening and discussing > dhamma can > condition understanding. As I mentioned earlier, for me, from the quote > from > Milindapanha, that it is hard to know the differences between the two. > > > 2) Citta > > From Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin > > .."The 4 characteristics of citta are > 1. Called "citta" because it experiences arammana clearly. > 2. Called "citta" because it accumulates innate tendencies with the > efficiency of javana-vithi. > 3. Called "citta" because it is a reality where kamma and kilesa > accumulate > vipaka. > 4. Every citta is called "citta" because of its complex and intricate > nature > according to the efficiency of the sampayutta-dhamma". > > Sampayutta-dhamma of citta is cetasika. > > From Atthasalini : "citta ….conizing object(aramana) is its > characteristic, > forerunning is its function, connecting is its manifestation, a > mental(nama) > and material(rupa) organism is its proximate cause. …" > > From Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin. "Citta is eminent and > presiding in knowing or experiencing. In the Atthasalini > Cittupadakandha > there is a passage saying "Citta is the bhumi or place of origin of the > sampayutta-dhamma such as happiness. If there were no citta, the happy > feeling could not arise because there would be no basis, no point of > origin > for happiness. Whenever sukha-vedana arises, citta is the bhumi, the > basis, > the home of that sukha-vedana that arose with that citta. Therefore > citta is > the bhumi, the home of its sampayutta-dhamma, which are the sukha-vedana > and > other cetasika." > > Analogy from Milindapanha > V.Nagasena "….. Just, sire, as the town-guard, seated at the > cross-roads in > middle of the town, would see a man coming from the west, the south, the > > north: so your majesty, the object seen by the eyes, the sound heard by > the > ear, the smell smelt by the nose, the taste tasted by the tongue, the > tangible touched by the body, the idea cognized by the mind, is cognized > by > consciousness' (citta)". There for it is said to have the function of > forerunning". > > > 3) Cetasika > > From abhidhammattha sangaha > "Cetasika = Ceta + s + ika > That which is associated with mind or consciousness is cetasika. > (Sanskrit - > caitasika or caitti). > Definition- > Cetasika is > (i) that which arises together with consciousness, > (ii) that which perishes together with it, > (iii) that which has an identical object with it, > (iv) that which has a common basis with it." > > Another analogy from abhidhammattha sangaha, Thai version. In > watercolor > painting, citta is like water, cetasika is like colors. Only water alone > > cannot make the painting appear, nor only the color alone. When there > are > paper, water and color then the painting can appear on the paper or > canvas, > and of course the view or a model is like the object. (like conscious > needs > citta&cetasika, material base (vathu) and object(aramana) to arise). > > > Hope I put something relevant to your question. > > Best wishes, > > Num 9249 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:23pm Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Hi Mike & Tadao, Good to hear from both of you... Mike, sounds like a good start....hope you catch up some sleep and find a nearby internet cafe soon too. Meanwhile, perhaps no one needs to use the tel line early morning and late evening? How was the English discussion on Saturday? I'm pretty excited to hear from you from Bkk...still can't quite believe you're there;-) It'll be great if you're still around end Dec when we visit, hopefully with Ken O and another dsg 'surprise' ..;-) Tadao, good to hear you're still around...I know you've been very busy. It'll be good to hear any (brief OK) 'titbits' from you if you have time/inspiration. Any chance of meeting us in Bkk too???? (..and if it's an extended stay, you get to meet Rob K for the same ticket price;-) Best wishes to you both, Sarah --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Mike: > Nice to hear that you've sort of setteled in Bangkok. > Good luck! tadao > 9250 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] cittas- sequential and sati Hi Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Thanks for your patient in quoting the text. Presently I am trying to > learn the Abidhamma systems of practising. Hence recently I have been > asking Abidhammaic questions which sometimes do off track due to my > previous views. I'm always delighted to read your questions and interest in Abhidhamma. Never mind about whether they are on or off-track....like you say, 'previous views' take us off-track all the time and we're all here to help each other on-track..;-) > > I try ordering the Book of Analysis and Dispeller of Delusion which Robert > has kindly introduced to me. I am still waiting for PTS to respond my > email of my ordering, but till date I have no reply. Is there any other > way to buy it, do you know of any good web on line store that sells these > books. I believe they are impt to my studies on Satipatthana and > Abidhamma. Someone gave you another website for orders....we've always found PTS (direct) quite efficient (tho' sometimes they send the wrong book;-)....If you become a member of PTS, you get a discount and free book...all the details are on their website I expect. I also recommend the Expositor (Atthasalani) to add to the 2 texts above. > > Thanks once again and at times I feel guilty that you have spend so much > time in explaining Abidhamma terms to me and also to many others that have > assist me in the understanding of Abidhamma. Now, Ken O, what kind of cetasika is this 'feel guilty'???? Sounds like a kind of dosa (aversion);-) Seriously, I'm really glad if I can help a little and only sorry (Oops that could be dosa too) that sometimes I can't express myself as well as I'd like or am too busy to add more detail. Thanks again for your keen interest which encourages us all, Sarah 9251 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 1:49am Subject: Commentaries Dear All, I have received a long-awaited copy of "The Discourse on The Fruits of Recluseship - The Samannaphala Sutta and its Commentaries" by Bhikkhu Bodhi.(Sutta + approx. 150 pages of commentary). Is there any 'best' way to study this discourse - just have both together perhaps, and read one section of the Sutta then the relevant part in the commentary , followed by pondering on what has been read? May I post any questions to this List? (I can see why the commentaries grew - ?commentaries on commentaries?) metta, Christine 9252 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 2:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Commentaries Dear Christine, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > I have received a long-awaited copy of "The Discourse on The Fruits > of Recluseship - The Samannaphala Sutta and its Commentaries" by > Bhikkhu Bodhi.(Sutta + approx. 150 pages of commentary). > > Is there any 'best' way to study this discourse - just have both > together perhaps, and read one section of the Sutta then the relevant > part in the commentary , followed by pondering on what has been read? That sounds sensible to me....;-) > > May I post any questions to this List? (I can see why the > commentaries grew - ?commentaries on commentaries?) Please do...I think several people have copies and will be happy to discuss/share understandings. Pls give a page no and....perhaps if you give brief summaries or short quotes for those that don't so anyone can follow, that would be helpful.. Must rush to my Tai Chi class, Sarah 9253 From: Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:13am Subject: List Bulletin Dear Fellow List-Members Some announcements and reminders: a/ Change of subject-tag We have changed the subject tag that appears in messages, from [DhammaStudyGroup] to [dsg]. (Don't forget to re-set any filters you may have for the group's posts.) b/ Opening of list We have made the group's messages 'open', by allowing non-members to browse the messages. This was done on a trial basis initially, and will be continued until further notice. Our main purpose in doing this is to make the dhamma as accessible as possible. It also makes it easier to recommend the list to others who can take a look before deciding whether to join or not. c/ Back-up archives at eScribe All posts are backed-up to an archive site called eScribe. In addition to the security of a duplicate set of posts, eScribe offers a more powerful search function, such as searching for posts by a particular member or by a particular thread. You will need to use the User ID and password given below to access the website. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup Username: dsgarchives Password: metta d/ 'Files' section In the 'Files' section of the dsg homepage there are files containing: - a list of useful posts from the archives, indexed by subject-matter - a glossary of Pali terms - guidelines (do's and don't's) for members - how to change your delivery options (how you receive messages from the list) Here is the link to the Files page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ e/ 'Bookmarks' section In the `Bookmarks' section of the group's homepage there are some links to useful dhamma websites, including Tipitaka sources, publishers and websites with useful materials or links. Here is the link to the Bookmarks page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links If you have any comments or queries on any of these points, please send them OFF-LIST. Jon & Sarah 9254 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:31am Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Mike Thanks for the news, and glad to hear you've settled in already. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks, Jon, > > Settled in nicely now, jet-lagged but very glad to be > here. Got in on the English discussion Saturday and > had the great good luck to have Khun Amara interpret > the Thai talk and subsequent Foundation meeting (on > anusaya) following. All quite exhilarating. > > Time on the computer here ties up the foundation phone > line, so I limit it strictly. I'll try to get back > into correspondence when I've located the local > internet cafe. There is an internet cafe quite close by. Khun Suphee at the Foundation will tell you how to get there (out the back of the Soi, turn right, on the road running parallel with Charoen Nakorn). Please give Khun Suphee my regards (faak kwaam kit tyyng). Best wishes for an enjoyable and rewarding stay in Thailand. Jon 9255 From: Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 0:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Commentaries Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/12/01 5:18:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Must rush to my Tai Chi class ====================== Never rush T'ai Chi, Sarah! ;-)) BTW, what style are you learning, if I may ask? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9256 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:46am Subject: Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Jon: > > I would have to start looking. But I sense from your response, > Howard, > > that you are confident I won't find what I'm looking for (knowing how > > meticulous you are, and rightly so, about sources)!. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > First of all, I'm really not at all meticulous in this. I am the > quintessential non-expert! Not as I see it, Howard. You are extremely well-read, and have given the teachings a lot of mature thought and reflection. More expert than you care to admit, I think! While I would not be surprised to find that a > characterization of parinibbana as a final and complete ending of > the khandas > in every sense does not occur except in the commentaries, I would > hope that > some discussion of parinibbana can be found in the suttas. I would > *like* to > read what the Buddha directly said about it in order to better > understand his > meaning on that subject. I honestly do not know. Yes, it would be an interesting area to explore, but I'm not sure about the relevance or practical benefit. Which brings me to something I have been wondering lately. Why are people (apparently) so fascinated with nibbana and with what 'happens' at parinibbana? I have always considered this whole area as something of little practical significance, of curiosity value only and more or less unrelated to the task of understanding the reality appearing at the present moment. Yet there has been some pretty intense speculation on this list about the ins and outs of parinibbana. So I'm wondering what is the significance/appeal -- or am I missing something? > As I understand it, for an > arahant, the khandas, and all dhammas for that matter, have "ceased" in > the > sense that no separate, independent, self-sufficient dhammas are any > longer > to be observed. I'm not sure what this refers to, Howard. Would you mind giving a reference/explanation? Thanks. >Whether or not, or how, this might change with the death of > an arahant I just don't know. I see it as certainly possible that if no > association is maintained at that point with any realm of experience, > then > the death of an arahant does, indeed, result in a radical change; but it > would be a change that the arahant would be indifferent to in any case, > inasmuch as once full liberation is attained, there is no longer any > sense of > self or independent dhammas anyway, and there no longer is any grasping > at anything, including being and nonbeing. I can *imagine*, however, an > arahant > *choosing*, based on compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an > association with some realm or realms of experience. I think this is somewhat in the realm of speculation, of the kind I was referring to above. Is it productive to consider, would you say? Not trying to change the subject, just to understand. Jon 9257 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas-(Jon) Num Thanks very much for this fascinating information. --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Hi Jon and everyone, > > Jon, this is brief summary from the book. I do not even want to say I > am > parroting, b/c the parrot still has a brain. In Thai we have an idiom, > the > serving spoon never tastes the flavor of a curry. I, feel like I am a > spoon, > cannot absorb a flavor from this book. It's pretty complicated. Yes, I have an English translation (Bhikkhu Bodhi, BPS) and I know what you mean. (By the way, this translation has an extensive history of the work and its place in Buddhist learning.) > Manodvara-vithi which continues the object (aramana) from 5-sense-door > process (panca-dvara-vithi) > > 1.Atitak-kahana-vithi (atita = past, kahana = grasping or forming) > 2.Smuhak-kahana-vithi (smuha = group, mass) > 3.Atthak-kahana-vithi (attha = meaning) > 4.Namak-kahana-vithi (nama = name) > > In Eye-door-process, after eye-door-process, (1) Atitak-kahana-vithi occurs > alternatively and repeatedly with eye-door-process for numerous times. > Then follows by (2) Smuhak-kahana-vithi. It's function is to gather colors > together, again occurs repeatedly many times. Then follows by (3) Attak-kahana-vithi, knows the meaning of what has just been seen and > finally (4) Namak-kahana-vithi functions as recognition of the name of > the objects. (3) & (4) also occur repeatedly many times. > > To sum. up (1) and (2) have paramattha as aramana, (3) & (4) have > pannatti as aramana. > > There is also another type of manodvara-vithi which does not occur after > sense-door-process as well. > > Well, that's my own rough translation from Thai and my poor Pali. Please > check with other sources. > > > Num Much of this I do not recall having seen before, and I have been frantically searching through my translation to try and find it. It doesn't seem to be there. Perhaps it's from the commentary rather than the actual text. Never mind, I'm sure I'll come across it somewhere. Thanks anyway for the glimpse of a new area of detail. Is (4) anything to do with conventional memory, I wonder? Thanks again, Num Jon 9258 From: Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/12/01 8:46:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoa bb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Jon: > > > I would have to start looking. But I sense from your response, > > Howard, > > > that you are confident I won't find what I'm looking for (knowing how > > > meticulous you are, and rightly so, about sources)!. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > First of all, I'm really not at all meticulous in this. I am the > > quintessential non-expert! > > Not as I see it, Howard. You are extremely well-read, and have given the > teachings a lot of mature thought and reflection. More expert than you > care to admit, I think! > > While I would not be surprised to find that a > > characterization of parinibbana as a final and complete ending of > > the khandas > > in every sense does not occur except in the commentaries, I would > > hope that > > some discussion of parinibbana can be found in the suttas. I would > > *like* to > > read what the Buddha directly said about it in order to better > > understand his > > meaning on that subject. I honestly do not know. > > Yes, it would be an interesting area to explore, but I'm not sure about > the relevance or practical benefit. Which brings me to something I have > been wondering lately. Why are people (apparently) so fascinated with > nibbana and with what 'happens' at parinibbana? I have always considered > this whole area as something of little practical significance, of > curiosity value only and more or less unrelated to the task of > understanding the reality appearing at the present moment. Yet there has > been some pretty intense speculation on this list about the ins and outs > of parinibbana. So I'm wondering what is the significance/appeal -- or am > I missing something? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As far as any "practical benefit" to one's practice, I agree with you completely that knowing the details of parinibbana affords none. As far as the *appeal* of it, I suppose this differs from person to person. I *think* my main interest is a matter of wanting to understand (intellectually, of course) what it is that the Buddha actually taught. However, I can certainly see how clinging to "self" can enter into this matter as well, and I am not so foolish as to exempt myself from that. -------------------------------------------------------- > > > As I understand it, for an > > arahant, the khandas, and all dhammas for that matter, have "ceased" in > > the > > sense that no separate, independent, self-sufficient dhammas are any > > longer > > to be observed. > > I'm not sure what this refers to, Howard. Would you mind giving a > reference/explanation? Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am thinking here in terms of an arahant's direct apprehension of patticasamupada as the "middle way". See, for example, the Kaccayangotta Sutta. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Whether or not, or how, this might change with the death of > > an arahant I just don't know. I see it as certainly possible that if no > > association is maintained at that point with any realm of experience, > > then > > the death of an arahant does, indeed, result in a radical change; but it > > would be a change that the arahant would be indifferent to in any case, > > inasmuch as once full liberation is attained, there is no longer any > > sense of > > self or independent dhammas anyway, and there no longer is any grasping > > at anything, including being and nonbeing. I can *imagine*, however, an > > arahant > > *choosing*, based on compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an > > association with some realm or realms of experience. > > I think this is somewhat in the realm of speculation, of the kind I was > referring to above. Is it productive to consider, would you say? Not > trying to change the subject, just to understand. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The *speculation* as to whether "an arahant *choosing*, based on compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an association with some realm or realms of experience" is a possibility is not, in itself, productive. But the *knowledge* of whether or not that is a possibility would be very useful. For example, some Mahayanists have expressed the notion that vowing, prior to being an arahant, to maintain such an association is necessary, and that without having already established, quite strongly, such an intention, it is too late to do so once one is an arahant. As regards myself, just on the off chance ;-)) that, beyond parinibbana, keeping some sort of connection with a samsaric realm is still possible, I have personally vowed (in my own mind) to make such a connection. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas-(Jon) op 12-11-2001 14:47 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Num > > >> Manodvara-vithi which continues the object (aramana) from 5-sense-door >> process (panca-dvara-vithi) >> >> 1.Atitak-kahana-vithi (atita = past, kahana = grasping or forming) >> 2.Smuhak-kahana-vithi (smuha = group, mass) >> 3.Atthak-kahana-vithi (attha = meaning) >> 4.Namak-kahana-vithi (nama = name) >> >> In Eye-door-process, after eye-door-process, > (1) Atitak-kahana-vithi occurs >> alternatively and repeatedly with eye-door-process for numerous times. >> Then follows by > (2) Smuhak-kahana-vithi. It's function is to gather colors >> together, again occurs repeatedly many times. Then follows by > (3) Attak-kahana-vithi, knows the meaning of what has just been seen and >> finally > (4) Namak-kahana-vithi functions as recognition of the name of >> the objects. (3) & (4) also occur repeatedly many times. >> >> To sum. up (1) and (2) have paramattha as aramana, (3) & (4) have >> pannatti as aramana. >> >> There is also another type of manodvara-vithi which does not occur after >> sense-door-process as well. >> > Dear Jonothan, there is another edition of Abhidhammatta Sangaha, translated as Compendium of Buddhist Philosophy. It has an introductory essay with the same info (p. 32,33): atiitaggaha.na, samudaayaggaha.na, atthaggaha.na, naamagggaha.na. (Num's kk become gg). I shall not add more, I lack time. Nina. 9260 From: ppp Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:34am Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Hi, Sarah: I am busy during the summer 2002, but I will think about going to Thailand the summer 2003. I am qurioius about knowing the general atmousphere of the Thai Sangha. tadao 9261 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 2:33pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup --- p Sallakachat wrote: > > > hello i interest in Buddhism for 31 years. last > month i went toIndia with > dhamma group (SUJIN BORIHARNWANAKET).JONOTHAN ABBOTT > gave > me e-mail address to join dhammastudygroup. > > > pirmsombat > 9262 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 6:29pm Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Mike & Tadao, > > Good to hear from both of you... > > Mike, sounds like a good start....hope you catch up > some sleep and find a > nearby internet cafe soon too. There now. > Meanwhile, perhaps no > one needs to use the tel > line early morning and late evening? Some language barrier problems added to multiple passwords (mai mee) and an unstable connection. I'll try to keep in touch from here, though... > How was the English discussion on Saturday? I'm > pretty excited to hear from you > from Bkk...still can't quite believe you're there;-) Outstanding, though the Thai interpreted for my by Khun Amara was much better. Really great abhidhamma. A lotta smart people here I'd never heard of... > It'll be great if you're still around end Dec when > we visit, hopefully with Ken > O and another dsg 'surprise' ..;-) It's looking like a possibility at this point--yang mai naa... > Tadao, good to hear you're still around...I know > you've been very busy. It'll > be good to hear any (brief OK) 'titbits' from you if > you have time/inspiration. > Any chance of meeting us in Bkk too???? (..and if > it's an extended stay, you > get to meet Rob K for the same ticket price;-) > > Best wishes to you both, Back at you all, mike 9263 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 6:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Welcome Pirmsombat! Where are you? mike --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- p Sallakachat wrote: > > > > hello i interest in Buddhism for 31 years. last > > month i went toIndia with > > dhamma group (SUJIN BORIHARNWANAKET).JONOTHAN > ABBOTT > > gave > > me e-mail address to join dhammastudygroup. > > > > > > > pirmsombat 9264 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Daily Words of the Buddha >If you wish to recieve daily words by the Buddha (short stanzas) you >can >do so at the following website. > >http://www.pariyatti.com ~meththa Ranil 9265 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Mor Pirm Welcome to the list. Please feel free to contribute comments or views any time, and share the benefit of your 31 years of dhamma interest. Jon --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- p Sallakachat wrote: > > > > hello i interest in Buddhism for 31 years. last > > month i went toIndia with > > dhamma group (SUJIN BORIHARNWANAKET).JONOTHAN ABBOTT > > gave > > me e-mail address to join dhammastudygroup. > > > > > > pirmsombat 9266 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daily Words of the Buddha --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > >If you wish to recieve daily words by the Buddha (short stanzas) you >can > >do so at the following website. > > > >http://www.pariyatti.com > > ~meththa > Ranil thanks, Ranil. Robert 9267 From: Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike "waddee krap Mike, It's good to hear from someone back home. How come you pick up Thai so quick? It's getting cold back here. But as you know nobody can predict the weather in St.Louis. Nov, in BKK in not too bad. If you can stand the summer here in St.Louis before, BKK is a piece of cake. Well, hope you have a great time there. Anumodhana in your good deed. Hope you get what you want ,and also hope you want what you get. Good to hear you have a good time there. Hope to hear a whole lot more from you. Best wishes, Num 9268 From: Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Waddee krap, Welcome to dsg krap. I am excited. I do not know how to address properly yet. I like studying dhamma a lot as well, but definitely less than 31 yr krap. see you on dsg later krap. I may send you an off-list mail. Num 9269 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 9:29pm Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Hey Mike! When you're settled in, let us know more. Good to hear you've arrived okay. Best, Robert ========= --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks, Jon, > > Settled in nicely now, jet-lagged but very glad to be > here. Got in on the English discussion Saturday and > had the great good luck to have Khun Amara interpret > the Thai talk and subsequent Foundation meeting (on > anusaya) following. All quite exhilarating. 9270 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Hi Ken O, I’m going to reply to two of your messages on ‘Seeing’ here: .................... Post (1)--- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > k: Just a point abt sense base. To me cittas are not dependent of rupa > based to have the six senses. To hear physically or to see physically, I > do agree that it is rupa dependent. As you say before, during sleep we do > not see as the senses are not working and there is a contiunation of > cittas which is bavanga cittas. While we’re fast asleep, But i more prefer to think that such > latent characteristics of seeing is not cease, it is just not arise as > there is no right conditions and causes for it to arise. .................... S: As I understand, in order for seeing (cakkhu vinnana) to take place, there must be a reality (a visible object) which is seen and there must also be eye-base or eye-sense. If kamma doesn’t produce eye-sense, there is no seeing. Furthermore, seeing is the result of kamma, it’s vipaka citta. It’s not the result of will or nutrition or temperature, for example. When we talk about eye-base/sense, it’s not the same as that sense or organ we think about conventionally or scientifically. Here, it’s a rupa (reality which doesn’t experience anything) termed cakkuppasada rupa (eye-base) and it falls away all the time, very rapidly, just as the visible object does. Because we have different ideas of what eye-base/sense is, it’s a little easier to use the Pali term, I think. While we’re fast asleep, the cakkuppasada rupa (eye-base) is not a condition for seeing, even though there is still light. The reason is that there’s no contact between the visible object and the cakkuppasada rupa. One mor point to stress, cakkuppasada rupa doesn’t know that visible objects contact with it and visible objects don’t know they contact with cakkuppasada rupa. They don’t know anything at all. Only namas (mental phenomena) know or experience anything. .................... >...... This is similar > to lobha and panna, they do not cease with cittas cease, they are passed > to the next arising cittas. Hence there is the reasons I believe we could > accumulate. If such pannas or lobha cease together with these cittas, > then whatever we accumulate will be back to square one. Such > characteristics of passing is definitely annatta similar to the nature of > cittas and cetasikas. .................... S: As I just mentioned, seeing is vipaka citta (result of kamma).These cittas are quite different from those which are accompanied by lobha and panna which ‘accumulate’ these tendencies. When seeing sees something pleasant or unpleasant, it is a citta which is the result of a good or bad deed we have performed. Lobha or panna accompany bad or good cittas afterwards and may themselves condition further bad or good deeds. As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or Buddha ‘sees’, there cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas. Like you say, they are all anatta, regardless. .................... ==================== Post (2)- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi All, > > I remember when I asked Sarah that do we need the organ of eye to see, she > say yes. .................... S: Perhaps I should clarify (emphasise) and say that what is needed is eye-base (cakkhuppasada rupa). When we talk about organ or brain, we’re talking about concepts and not the precise realities the Buddha explained. ..................... > The problem is eye consciouness really gone without eye organ. I could be > temporarily blind by venom of a snake and the use of anti venom we could > be seeing again. .................... S: As I mentioned, cakkuppasada rupa arises and falls away like all other rupas. Like when we’re asleep, if there is no contact, there cannot be seeing. The use of the anti-venom would be the condition for contact to take place again, I'd think. Actually, when I’ve taught ‘blind’ children, usually there is some seeing or eye consciousness taking place, but because of various conditions (i.e including the nature of the cakkuppasada rupa and contact and kamma produced seeing at those moments), it is not as ‘clear’ as for others. .................... >Hence if eye conscious is really gone, we could not be > seeing again. Could it be latent in the cittas just like lobha, dosa and > moha (cetasiaks), just that the causes and conditions are not there for it > to arise as what I always suspect. .................... S: As discussed above. .................... > I believe the sharacteristics of such sense conscoiuness of one citta is > pass to the next time cittas, just like the three poison which we > accumulates. It will not cease even when cittas ceased. If these > characteristics or function cease with each citta, then it will be > impossible to accumulate, panna or cetana or sanna, because each citta > will be bring us back to ground zero in accumulations. .................... S: It really helps to clearly understand the difference between kusala, akusala and vipaka cittas. This has very direct relevance in our daily life which I’d be happy to discuss further. .................... > To me this there is a sense a constant passing of accumulations between > cittas. It sounds like a some kind of "self" in these passing of > accumulations which will not cease even if cittas cease. > > > For your kind comments please .................... S: It only sounds like a ‘self’ passing in the accumulations if there is no awareness of their characteristics. The momentary cessation of cittas and cetasikas does not mean that as a result of many conditions, these tendencies cannot be ‘accumulated’. However, I don’t want to complicate further an already complicated post ;-). Thanks for helping me to consider seeing and eye-sense more carefully, Ken O. I appreciate your interest a lot and hope I’ve got my facts right. Please let me know if anything isn't clear in this post. Sarah ==================== 9271 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A tentative question Dear Ken H, --- khow14@h... wrote: > > Hello Sarah and Christine, > > Your discussion has impressed upon me that the Dhamma is very > much about finding ourselves, however incongruous that sounds. > > I remember reading about a sutta which used that sort of language, > and I am trying to track it down again. Some young noblemen > were too busy to listen to the Buddha because they were searching > for a thief who had made off with their valuables. The Buddha > asked them, `what do you want to do, find your possessions, or find > your selves?' I'll look forward to the reference when you find it. It's a good reminder abouty the priorities we set in a day or even at this moment. I had a long swim this morning and was reflecting towards the end on how most the thinking that had been taking place whilst I was swimming was quite useless with very few moments of useful reflection, let alone sati. Still, at least I reflected on and composed my response on 'Seeing' to Ken O and this was helpful;-) We take the seeing for granted, but it just arises for a moment depending on many different conditions. When it's the object of awareness, there's no concern or thought about self and no confusion with what is seen. Just a nama experiencing for a moment and then gone. > I've been immersed in `homework,' over the last couple of weeks, > and will be glad to get back into the discussions. Now you've reminded me about kids' homework and housework Always glad to hear from you Ken H. Sarah 9272 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 11:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > > death of the arahant. Nowhere is anything said of mental function ceasing > > > > > > upon the death of the arahant. > > > > Hey Howard. > > You don't think you can get away with that, do you? [hope you do > > of > > course]. > > > > Regards, > > Robert Ep. > > > ================================ > Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) > No, I didn't expect to get off easily on this, and the fact that no > major "fight" on this has erupted yet is frankly getting me quite nervous! I > am having nightmares about an entire Abhidhammic arsenal being assembled! > (Just kidding, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, et alia ;-) Hey, Howard, I wouldn't like to play any part in giving you nightmares, so I'm taking a 'nibbana-leave' for now and leaving it to others....;-) On the more peaceful question of Tai Chi, I always forget what 'system' it is I do (sorry, hopeless with names). It's the 'long' one that is 'standard' in Hong Kong. I liked your reminder about rushing to class;-) It's the story of my life - I rush around like mad and then wonder why it takes me the first half of the session to 'get my bearings' and 'focus' on the steps;-) It also doubles up as my Cantonese class as my teacher doesn't speak a word of English, so there's plenty of detail that goes over my head, I'm sure. To add a 'dhamma' comment, some others may think that the Tai Chi (performed very slowly) is like slow walking meditation. Perhaps, but again it depends on the view and attitude. If one has the idea that this is THE time or place for developing awareness (as opposed to the frantic bustle getting there on time in my case) and if one has the idea that the slow movements themselves are the condition for sati, I wouldn't agree at all. Seeing and other realities are just as real in the frantic bustle and can be known at any time. Still, I highly recommend Tai Chi as a kind of exercise in terms of promoting flexibility, eneregising 'chi' (energy) and for many other benefits such as a real 'cut off' from teaching and students;-) Howard, I'm sure meanwhile you'll have no problems coping with the 'Abhidhammic arsenal' with your usual equanimity (and you can usually call on Rob Ep for a bit of extra support;-) ) Sarah 9273 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 11:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Music Dear Herman, --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I love your ability to express yourself so clearly, gently and > profoundly at the same time. > > I guess I still express myself harshly at times, but I think the > bulldozer is shrinking :-) Many thanks and another big bow.... I assure you that I'm only too aware of how often the bulldozer gets into my speech in a day too....I should get my students to put you right on this score;-) I found Jon's reminder about conceit helpful and actually I hope he or Nina will add more details from their discussions in India. We feel indignant or even outraged when someone makes a comment on an issue which may not even be directed to us. Isn't there an aspect of conceit in the indignation and ruffled feathers we feel? I'd like to explore this further and would be interested in your comments. >Please accept that there is no malice in > anything I write, sometimes I can't resist what seems to be a nice > turn of phrase. It is good that anyone can discuss whatever Theradava > related topic they want, and that anyone can feel free to join in or > not. Herman, I know you wish us all well and (like I said to Erik), your bark is worse than your bite on the rare occasions recently that we hear it at all. It's very natural that some posts and topics are more appealing to us than others, don't you think? (,,,,and Erik, hoping the wedding celebrations went well last week - we thought of you many times during the day;-) > With regards to all the activities that fill the day, I am reading > some stuff re lucid dreaming / awareness during sleep (it seems such > a waste to be "out of it" for eight hours every day). > > Are there any Theradava sources re sleeping with awareness? I don't think so;-) So often when we feel 'exhausted' though, isn't it exhausted from our defilements? Maybe with more kusala in a day, we need less sleep and then there is less 'wastage'. Also, the arahat doesn't dream, you know. That's the best I can do on that question;-) Like Rob Ep, may I just add a note to say that I also sympathised with past 'hardships' and wish you, Tori and the boys many happy years together. iIalso know there are others on the list who've also experienced great personal losses and hope we can all help each other to reflect wisely and develop more understanding. Sarah 9274 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Hi Sarah What kamma decides our sense faculty is only physically base (sense organs and sense bases) that resulted us able to physically to see and hear. To me it is the cittas that cognize the seeing and it is the eye base with eye organs that facilites or support the physically seeing. My view is that it is in the function of the cittas that cognize/knowing the seeing as such physical seeing is not manifested0if the right kamma and the right conditions are not there. But I like to stress that I am not talking abt an outter ego here. Hence even when we have an out of body experience, we are able to see bc of the function of cittas to cognize. "As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or Buddha ‘sees’, there cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas." As each successive cittas conditioned the next, there is still the ability to cognize even when one is Buddha just the Buddha could cognize it with perfect clarity and with reality. That does mean that panna is not accompanying the vipaka cittas. I tend to believe that panna is there just that our panna is not strong to be manifested unlike Buddha. Without such panna accompanying, Buddha would not known what is vipaka cittas and how it works and its speed etc.... Kind regards Ken O --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > I’m going to reply to two of your messages on ‘Seeing’ here: > .................... > > Post (1)--- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > k: Just a point abt sense base. To me cittas are not dependent of > rupa > > based to have the six senses. To hear physically or to see > physically, I > > do agree that it is rupa dependent. As you say before, during sleep > we do > > not see as the senses are not working and there is a contiunation of > > cittas which is bavanga cittas. While we’re fast asleep, But i more > prefer > to think that such > > latent characteristics of seeing is not cease, it is just not arise as > > there is no right conditions and causes for it to arise. > > .................... > > S: As I understand, in order for seeing (cakkhu vinnana) to take place, > there > must be a reality (a visible object) which is seen and there must also > be > eye-base or eye-sense. If kamma doesn’t produce eye-sense, there is no > seeing. > Furthermore, seeing is the result of kamma, it’s vipaka citta. It’s not > the > result of will or nutrition or temperature, for example. > > When we talk about eye-base/sense, it’s not the same as that sense or > organ we > think about conventionally or scientifically. Here, it’s a rupa (reality > which > doesn’t experience anything) termed cakkuppasada rupa (eye-base) and it > falls > away all the time, very rapidly, just as the visible object does. > Because we > have different ideas of what eye-base/sense is, it’s a little easier to > use the > Pali term, I think. > > While we’re fast asleep, the cakkuppasada rupa (eye-base) is not a > condition > for seeing, even though there is still light. The reason is that there’s > no > contact between the visible object and the cakkuppasada rupa. > > One mor point to stress, cakkuppasada rupa doesn’t know that visible > objects > contact with it and visible objects don’t know they contact with > cakkuppasada > rupa. They don’t know anything at all. Only namas (mental phenomena) > know or > experience anything. > > .................... > > >...... This is similar > > to lobha and panna, they do not cease with cittas cease, they are > passed > > to the next arising cittas. Hence there is the reasons I believe we > could > > accumulate. If such pannas or lobha cease together with these cittas, > > then whatever we accumulate will be back to square one. Such > > characteristics of passing is definitely annatta similar to the nature > of > > cittas and cetasikas. > > .................... > > S: As I just mentioned, seeing is vipaka citta (result of kamma).These > cittas > are quite different from those which are accompanied by lobha and panna > which > ‘accumulate’ these tendencies. When seeing sees something pleasant or > unpleasant, it is a citta which is the result of a good or bad deed we > have > performed. Lobha or panna accompany bad or good cittas afterwards and > may > themselves condition further bad or good deeds. As I mentioned recently, > even > when the arahat or Buddha ‘sees’, there cannot be panna accompanying > these > vipaka cittas. > > Like you say, they are all anatta, regardless. > > .................... > ==================== > > Post (2)- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I remember when I asked Sarah that do we need the organ of eye to see, > she > > say yes. > > .................... > > S: Perhaps I should clarify (emphasise) and say that what is needed is > eye-base > (cakkhuppasada rupa). When we talk about organ or brain, we’re talking > about > concepts and not the precise realities the Buddha explained. > > ..................... > > > The problem is eye consciouness really gone without eye organ. I could > be > > temporarily blind by venom of a snake and the use of anti venom we > could > > be seeing again. > > .................... > > S: As I mentioned, cakkuppasada rupa arises and falls away like all > other > rupas. Like when we’re asleep, if there is no contact, there cannot be > seeing. > The use of the anti-venom would be the condition for contact to take > place > again, I'd think. Actually, when I’ve taught ‘blind’ children, usually > there is > some seeing or eye consciousness taking place, but because of various > conditions (i.e including the nature of the cakkuppasada rupa and > contact and > kamma produced seeing at those moments), it is not as ‘clear’ as for > others. > > .................... > > >Hence if eye conscious is really gone, we could not be > > seeing again. Could it be latent in the cittas just like lobha, dosa > and > > moha (cetasiaks), just that the causes and conditions are not there > for it > > to arise as what I always suspect. > > .................... > > S: As discussed above. > > .................... > > > I believe the characteristics of such sense conscoiuness of one citta > is > > pass to the next time cittas, just like the three poison which we > > accumulates. It will not cease even when cittas ceased. If these > > characteristics or function cease with each citta, then it will be > > impossible to accumulate, panna or cetana or sanna, because each citta > > will be bring us back to ground zero in accumulations. > > .................... > > S: It really helps to clearly understand the difference between kusala, > akusala > and vipaka cittas. This has very direct relevance in our daily life > which I’d > be happy to discuss further. > > .................... > > > To me this there is a sense a constant passing of accumulations > between > > cittas. It sounds like a some kind of "self" in these passing of > > accumulations which will not cease even if cittas cease. > > > > > > For your kind comments please > > .................... > > S: It only sounds like a ‘self’ passing in the accumulations if there is > no > awareness of their characteristics. The momentary cessation of cittas > and > cetasikas does not mean that as a result of many conditions, these > tendencies > cannot be ‘accumulated’. However, I don’t want to complicate further an > already > complicated post ;-). > > Thanks for helping me to consider seeing and eye-sense more carefully, > Ken O. I > appreciate your interest a lot and hope I’ve got my facts right. Please > let me > know if anything isn't clear in this post. > > Sarah > ==================== 9275 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 2:13am Subject: same old questions/same old views Dear Sarah, Your quotes from the posts on Anatta were interesting - I am starting to explore the 'Useful Posts' in the files section. Because many parts of the Dhamma are so interwoven with other parts, a question or doubt or misunderstanding arising about one part cascades across other areas. And so, my not quite understanding Anatta, can raise questions for me about Kamma..... . So - if no-one is 'responsible'.....why do *I* get hurt, or *I* have loses, or *I* suffer, or in any way inherit the results of past kamma? How do the fruits of kamma get attracted to/inherited by/follow a particular entity/conglomeration throughout time? *Something* seems to stay together......... . Sometimes I seem to understand not-self, but then at other times find myself back at the beginning, holding the same old views - as if it hadn't been explained to me before, and I hadn't felt I understood. Sorry, I know I'm asking the same type of questions that I thought I had sorted out a while ago. Once I had a conversation with some fundamentalist Christians who called at my home to save my soul - and left disappointed. The basic unwritten, unspoken rule for the conversation, was that the discussion had to take place within the boundaries of the texts in the Christian Bible. Any question was settled by "proofs" extracted from the texts "Jehovah God said...." . They were unable to grasp that, for me, this form of discussion 'within a capsule', wasn't a valid way of discovering truth. It sometimes seems to me that some buddhists use similar methods when discussing self only from 'within a set of rules' regarding what can be mentioned about the characteristics of a self. e.g. in the quote . Why does one of the characteristics of a self have to be that it can magically 'will' or 'control' changes to facets of itself......otherwise there is not a self? I read U Silanand's "No Inner Core - Anatta" and could agree with it all as I read it........but what and why is this constant reversion to old ways of thinking? (It is almost as if I cannot store new memories on this one subject only ). Maybe I should drop it for a while........... metta, Christine 9276 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 3:57am Subject: meththa meditation Dear Dhamma friends, Recently I recieved the text below from one of my frineds. I found it very interesting. So I list it here. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most importantly, mettha towards your own self. A lot of young people who are being brought up under the influence of western cultures experience subtle lack of self esteem, subtle self hatred, feelings of worthlessness and thinking they are not good enough. Mettha meditation can play a big role in unravelling this knot. Giving oneself unconditional forgiveness regardless of whatever has happened in the past and thinking ALL your actions are good enough and thinking what you do is just fine and so on helps greatly. This is all compassion towards the self. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also would like to know your ideas on how meththa meditaion, meththa itself is helping our selvs to build self esteem, peace within us...etc. Thank you, ~meththa to all Ranil 9277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 5:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eightfold Path (esp. right effort) Howard and Rob Ep Thanks to you both for taking the trouble to respond to my post (and my apologies for being over wordy). I am glad you have picked this particular point to comment on. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Jon: > > 6. Finally, a general comment on the view that the Noble Eightfold > Path > > is a prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path > > factors are to be developed separately and individually, somehow > > culminating in supramundane consciousness. If that were so, then it > would > > mean that each of the path factors (except for right view) could be > > developed, and indeed is presumably even now being developed, by > persons > > who have never heard of the dhamma. I say this because, taking 'right > > effort' as an example, people who have never heard the dhamma do exert > > conventional effort to have more kusala. I can see no difference > between > > this person and the dhamma practitioner who likewise exerts > conventional > > effort to have more kusala -- or am I missing something here? > > > =============================== Howard: > Actually, what I think may be what is described here is the > practice > and progress of a person who could eventually become a paccekabuddha. > No? I think have not explained myself very well. Let me try to restate. We are discussing the meaning of the references in the texts to the Noble Eightfold Path. In particular, we are looking at what is meant by 'right effort' as one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. In previous discussions on this topic, Howard, you have indicated what I believe to be a fairly widely held view, namely, that right effort means or at least includes the effort that one makes to have kusala when there is no kusala, or not to have more akusala when akusala is present. You have illustrated how this may apply either in normal daily life or during one's 'practice'. My point is this. Since people who are not Buddhists can also strive to have kusala of exactly the same kind (except for right view) in the same way, does this mean that a non-Buddhist who is so making an effort is also developing the path factor of right effort? The question could be stated another way: is there *necessarily* a difference between the striving to have more kusala of someone who has never heard the dhamma, and the striving to have more kusala of someone who has heard the dhamma? It might perhaps be suggested that the fact that someone who has not heard the dhamma has no notion of the teaching of 'not-self' makes a difference. However, I do not think this can truly be said. Both the one who has studied dhamma and the non-Buddhist have an innate view of self, and both can strive without at that moment there being a manifest view of a self who is making effort. So there is not necessarily any difference between the two here. I would be interested to hear your views on this. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > This is the portion of Jon's good talk that also interested me quite a > bit. > > I would say that there is a difference between one who attempts to > cultivate > kusala states without the benefit of Buddhist understandings, and > someone who > attempts to realize the steps of the Eightfold Path with an > understanding of > anatta, anicca and dukkha. > > It is the clarity of these distinctions that gives the context for > Buddhist > cultivation. This in itself, I don't think, necessitates a view of the > 'real' > 8-fold path as supramundane, although it doesn't speak against that > possibility > either. > > I tend to think that all beings are striving in their own way for > liberation. > Everyone has a subconscious drive to end delusion and suffering, and > reach a place > of freedom. And at some point in their journey, they will find the > higher > principles that will allow them to actually achieve liberation. Is > there an > inherent difference between Buddhists and non-Buddhists? As 'beings', I > would say > there isn't. We're all in the same boat. But Buddhism allows one to go > beyond > the final illusions of a separate or permenant self or entity. > > Just because all spiritual people are trying to cultivate kusala, to me > neither > dictates that Buddhists and non-Buddhists are inherently different, or > inherently > the same. > > To me, the question remains as to whether there is volition in the path, > or > whether the Eight-Fold path is a set of factors that occur only in > Enlightenment. > It seems sensible to me to think that the various mundane cultivations > that > non-enlightened Buddhists do in order to increase their awareness and > see into > realities are the necessary steps that lead to reaping the benefits of > higher > stages, even if these higher stages include a different level of the > Eightfold > factors, and even if the earlier efforts are not in fact volitional but > only seem > that way. > > I apologize for this circuitous discussion that doesn't really reach any > conclusion. I also apologize for airing a few half-baked thoughts here > which may > not be very clear. For me, I would still like to know how the Arahats > who wrote > the commentaries derived their definition of the Noble Eightfold Path's > path-factors at the moment of enlightenment from the Suttas, but it > looks like I > will have to read the commentaries myself at some point and see for > myself, since > the connection seems to be implied rather than explicit. > > Does anyone know how to reach Bikkhu Bodhi? Perhaps I should ask him > what he > thinks about this. I'm just kidding. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > 9278 From: Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/13/01 2:26:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hey, Howard, I wouldn't like to play any part in giving you nightmares, so > I'm > taking a 'nibbana-leave' for now and leaving it to others....;-) --------------------------------------------- Whew! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- > > On the more peaceful question of Tai Chi, I always forget what 'system' it > is I > do (sorry, hopeless with names). It's the 'long' one that is 'standard' in > Hong > Kong. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps it's the Yang style? Specifically the Yang "long form" (108 steps). That's what I'm learning. I'm about half-way through at this point. (I previously learned the standard PRC government-issue 24-step form.) ---------------------------------------------------------- I liked your reminder about rushing to class;-) It's the story of my life> > - I rush around like mad and then wonder why it takes me the first half of > the > session to 'get my bearings' and 'focus' on the steps;-) It also doubles > up as > my Cantonese class as my teacher doesn't speak a word of English, so > there's > plenty of detail that goes over my head, I'm sure. > > To add a 'dhamma' comment, some others may think that the Tai Chi > (performed > very slowly) is like slow walking meditation. Perhaps, but again it depends > on > the view and attitude. If one has the idea that this is THE time or place > for > developing awareness (as opposed to the frantic bustle getting there on > time in > my case) and if one has the idea that the slow movements themselves are the > condition for sati, I wouldn't agree at all. Seeing and other realities are > just as real in the frantic bustle and can be known at any time. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that one of the several benefits in going slowly in t'ai chi (and elsewhere) is that it helps one to stay "present" without anticipating what comes up next, a facility which is important in meditation. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Still, I highly recommend Tai Chi as a kind of exercise in terms of > promoting > flexibility, eneregising 'chi' (energy) and for many other benefits such as > a > real 'cut off' from teaching and students;-) > > Howard, I'm sure meanwhile you'll have no problems coping with the > 'Abhidhammic > arsenal' with your usual equanimity (and you can usually call on Rob Ep for > a > bit of extra support;-) ) > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is very comforting having Robert "around"! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > Sarah > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9279 From: Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eightfold Path (esp. right effort) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/13/01 8:03:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > I think have not explained myself very well. Let me try to restate. > > We are discussing the meaning of the references in the texts to the Noble > Eightfold Path. In particular, we are looking at what is meant by 'right > effort' as one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > In previous discussions on this topic, Howard, you have indicated what I > believe to be a fairly widely held view, namely, that right effort means > or at least includes the effort that one makes to have kusala when there > is no kusala, or not to have more akusala when akusala is present. You > have illustrated how this may apply either in normal daily life or during > one's 'practice'. > > My point is this. Since people who are not Buddhists can also strive to > have kusala of exactly the same kind (except for right view) in the same > way, does this mean that a non-Buddhist who is so making an effort is also > developing the path factor of right effort? > > The question could be stated another way: is there *necessarily* a > difference between the striving to have more kusala of someone who has > never heard the dhamma, and the striving to have more kusala of someone > who has heard the dhamma? > > It might perhaps be suggested that the fact that someone who has not heard > the dhamma has no notion of the teaching of 'not-self' makes a difference. > However, I do not think this can truly be said. Both the one who has > studied dhamma and the non-Buddhist have an innate view of self, and both > can strive without at that moment there being a manifest view of a self > who is making effort. So there is not necessarily any difference between > the two here. > > I would be interested to hear your views on this. > > Jon > ============================= I think that one who has never heard a word of Dhamma could still end up practicing the Buddha's path (very unlikely but still possible), and that practice, if it in fact is the full practice, missing nothing, could eventually lead to full enlightenment. Such a person would, indeed, be a paccekabuddha (or, missing all the perfections, a lesser approximation of that). I suspect - quite strongly - that the Buddha's path really is ekayana (in the sense of "the only way", and not just "the direct way"), but that anyone who follows that path even inadvertently, whether having heard the Dhamma or not, is on the path to nibbana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9280 From: Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 5:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas <<>> Hi Ken, Good to see that you have been reflecting about the topic. I am too, it's good for me to consider about the subject as well. I did also read your post to Sarah on Seeing. I do not understand what you referred to as physical seeing. You said that it's citta that cognizes the object, that is my understanding as well. Rupa, material, cannot cognize anything. Seeing conscious needs a lot of conditions to arise, and only stay extremely briefly and then falls away the same as conditions. Again, let me repeat myself that, …<> I think this is very important. Now get back to your question Vedana and citta. May I refer to Nina's chapter 2, Vedana, http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas4.html Her writing can explain your question pretty clearly. My understanding is citta is a leader of the band in cognizing object but citta and cetasika (nama-dhamma: reality which is able to know) are mutually supportive (as characters of cetasika in Abhidhammattha Sangaha). There is no citta without cetasika and vice versa. This is my guess to your question. Because the nature of this two phenomena is so well blended, and the ability of citta that can know different kinds of object including material (rupa), citta, cetasika, nibbana as well as concept/signification/name (pannatti). So cetasika as well as citta can also be an object (arammana) for the later citta to cognize. If Nina have time, I am sure that she can explain this better than me. So previous vedana can be an object for later citta as well. I'd better stop here. This is not easy for me either. I enjoy your good questions. Addendum comment from anyone are appreciated. Num PS. Let me cut from Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin regarding the importance of vedana. << In the Anguttaranikaya Ekanipata Dutiyapannasaka Sanimitta the third vagga, 328, there is a passage saying: Behold, Bhikkhu, dhamma that is sinful akusala arises because there is vedana. Without vedana, it does not arise. By abandoning the vedana the dhamma that is sinful akusala would no longer be. (Other passages are about sanna-cetasika, which is the sanna-khandha, other cetasika that are sankhara-khandha and the citta which are vinnana-khandha.) This shows that the vedana-cetasika, which are feelings, are the basis of tenacious attachments. Since there is no knowledge of the truth about vedana-cetasika, one cannot abandon the feeling that there is oneself. The knowledge of the characteristics of vedana-cetasika would condition and support sati to arise and know the characteristics of vedana. Otherwise one would not realize that every day there is vedana in the same way that each day there are only realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, only because citta arise to know these realities. But imagine if one does not feel anything, when one sees the world there would be no perturbation. If one does not feel any emotion after hearing, one would not feel disturbed either. And the same applies to smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact, there would be no akusala of any kind. But because feelings arise, there is attachment and clinging to the feelings and desiring the objects that make us feel glad and happy, which cause akusala-dhamma to arise frequently without our awareness. All dhamma are anatta and none can prevent vedana-cetasika from arising. Whenever citta arises there must be vedana-cetasika that feels the arammana of the moment. Even now there must be vedana-cetasika of one kind or another being upekkha-vedana, sukha-vedana, dukkha-vedana, somanassa-vedana or domanassa-vedana. The aim of studying dhamma is not merely to know the number or names but the characteristics of the feelings one is having. If sati does not arise to be conscious of the feelings that we are having now, even though that feeling is real: it has arisen and fallen away, since we do not know the true characteristics of that feeling, we would take it for the selves, which are happy, unhappy, glad, sad or indifferent. >> 9281 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 6:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Dear Ranil, --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > Recently I recieved the text below from one of my > frineds. I found it very > interesting. So I list it here. > Most importantly, mettha towards your own self. Is there someone who can will the arising of mettaa or any other cetasika? If mettaa does arise, what are it's characteristics at that moment? Will it last? For how long? Is there attachment to the pleasant feeling attending it? Aversion to its absence or loss? > A > lot of > young people who are being brought up under the > influence of western > cultures experience subtle lack of self esteem, > subtle self hatred, feelings > of worthlessness and thinking they are not good > enough. Aversion is always akusala, no matter what the object--self-image, injustice, Ronald MacDonald, whatever. It's also always accompanied by an upleasant feeling. Adosa (just the absence of aversion) is always kusala and (I think--not certain about this) always accompanied by a pleasant feeling. Unfortunately, lobha is also accompanied by pleasant feeling and is very difficult to distinguish from adosa, not to mention mettaa. So understanding of the characteristics of all these phenomena is so much more important than any reflection that might, for the moment, cause 'us' to 'feel better about 'ourselves''. "Young people who are being brought up under the influence of western cultures" is just an idea, no reality to it at all. If one wants to truly undermine unhappiness, the way is to begin to understand the characteristics of the present moment--at what other moment could understanding arise? As I understand it, this is the only way to even begin to truly eradicate the underlying tendency to aversion of any kind--including 'low self-esteem'. Did western culture create suffering? Didn't people suffer in the Buddha's day too? And from what roots? Just the same as today--ignorance, aversion and desire. Don't "young people who are being brought up under the influence of eastern cultures" suffer too--maybe even from 'low self-esteem'? > Mettha meditation can play a big role in unravelling > this knot. Certainly various kinds of concentration can temporarily suppress the kilesas and the unpleasant feelings which accompany some of them. The key word is 'suppress'--once the samadhi is gone, the underlying tendency for the arising of the kilesas is still in place, if not strengthened--and the kilesa and its attendant feeling is free to arise again, probably also to condition yet more akusala kamma and vipakka--this is endless. > Giving > oneself unconditional forgiveness regardless of > whatever has happened in the > past and thinking ALL your actions are good enough > and thinking what you do > is just fine and so on helps greatly. This is all > compassion towards the > self. Compassion is always kusala, but what conditions its arising? Who is there to give 'oneself' anything? Where is the lasting virtue of all this thinking? It might condition a pleasant feeling for a little while (or it might not--very frustrating!)--but when the conditions that led to it are exhausted it's gone--it was just a temporary distraction from a real and persistent problem, that of dukkha. Mettaa-bhavana and all the other kinds of kusala are fine (if they're real--difficult to know)--except that they all just lead to more samsara. Only the cultivation of understanding will lead (eventually) to the eradication of the defilements and liberation. Offering little distractions to young people isn't doing them a favor, I think--just postponing the real (and by the way, really enjoyable) work of beginning to investigate the realities of the present moment. Please excuse the rant--just my opinions... mike 9282 From: kelvin liew peng chuan Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 6:36pm Subject: hello all! Dear All, May you all be well, happy & peaceful! i was requested by an e-friend to give a short write up to introduce Buddhism in a Christian website. can you all help me? sorry for being silent all this while, i see the pace of discussion's very fast & deep! it's enlightening to read the discussions, though.i hope someone can help me. thanks in advance, saddhu ! saddhu! saddhu! ~ sampuna 9283 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike :o)) Sir Mike the Bird has arrived in the 'Land that was never Conquered'.! Mudita cittena, gayan -----Original Message----- From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@y...] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 8:30 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Bon voyage/Welcome Mike Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Mike & Tadao, > > Good to hear from both of you... > > Mike, sounds like a good start....hope you catch up > some sleep and find a > nearby internet cafe soon too. There now. > Meanwhile, perhaps no > one needs to use the tel > line early morning and late evening? Some language barrier problems added to multiple passwords (mai mee) and an unstable connection. I'll try to keep in touch from here, though... > How was the English discussion on Saturday? I'm > pretty excited to hear from you > from Bkk...still can't quite believe you're there;-) Outstanding, though the Thai interpreted for my by Khun Amara was much better. Really great abhidhamma. A lotta smart people here I'd never heard of... > It'll be great if you're still around end Dec when > we visit, hopefully with Ken > O and another dsg 'surprise' ..;-) It's looking like a possibility at this point--yang mai naa... > Tadao, good to hear you're still around...I know > you've been very busy. It'll > be good to hear any (brief OK) 'titbits' from you if > you have time/inspiration. > Any chance of meeting us in Bkk too???? (..and if > it's an extended stay, you > get to meet Rob K for the same ticket price;-) > > Best wishes to you both, Back at you all, mike 9284 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Commentaries --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > May I post any questions to this List? (I can see why the > > commentaries grew - ?commentaries on commentaries?) > > Please do...I think several people have copies and will be happy to > discuss/share understandings. Pls give a page no and....perhaps if you give > brief summaries or short quotes for those that don't so anyone can follow, > that would be helpful.. or large quotes. I wanna see more commentaries! > Must rush to my Tai Chi class, > > Sarah Are there any types of classes you don't take, Sarah?? Actually, we have a lot in common. I studied Yang Style T'ai Chi, long form for a couple of years, then short form with William Chen in New York and others for several years, and a style that I believe was called K'ung Ping T'ai Chi for a year or two. With my long form teacher, I also studied Taoist standing meditation. I also studied and taught Iyengar style yoga for a couple of decades after that. I'm also a licensed [in New York] massage therapist, studied and practiced deep tissue work, lightwork, cranio-sacral work, etc. I don't know if it's right for the list, but if you want to have a thread on how discernment of realities relates to yoga and t'ai chi practices, that might be fun. Or maybe you don't see them as related. I would certainly be interested. Best Regards, Robert Ep. 9285 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: ...Why are people (apparently) so fascinated with > nibbana and with what 'happens' at parinibbana? I have always considered > this whole area as something of little practical significance, of > curiosity value only and more or less unrelated to the task of > understanding the reality appearing at the present moment. Yet there has > been some pretty intense speculation on this list about the ins and outs > of parinibbana. So I'm wondering what is the significance/appeal -- or am > I missing something? Dear Jon, I think you are right that the 'experience' of nibbana or parinibbana is speculative for us, and is not of practical benefit on a moment-to-moment everyday level on which we must focus in order to develop. However, I think the limited benefit of these topics is simple: If we are committing ourselves to a path, possibly an extremely long one, we want to know at least provisionally that the end goal of that path is something that we at least theoretically understand, and, if it is not too bold, that it is something that we actually want to achieve. I don't think there's anyone who follows Buddhism who does not attempt to some extent to emulate and understand the Buddha, his experience and his reasons for prescribing the path he does. Even to come to understand that the path is a path of discernment, and not one of achievement or self-transformation [in the sense that anatta does not allow for personal ownership of the process] is to focus on both the method or lack thereof, and the goal of the path. So I think that some of us rightly want to know where our long focus should be, where we are headed if we are able to continue on this path, and why it is the way it is. Of course, we won't understand directly until we get there, if and when we get there, but it still seems important to understand the components of the whole system on some level. And then, I would agree with you, at some point we have to put our focus on right where we are and what we need to do now to keep learning. Best, Robert Ep. 9286 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana --- Sarah wrote: > On the more peaceful question of Tai Chi, I always forget what 'system' it is I > do (sorry, hopeless with names). It's the 'long' one that is 'standard' in Hong > Kong. It's got to be either Yang, or Wu, the two major styles from China. Yang is the rounded-arm style, where the line of the arm, wrist fingers are a continuous curve. We has a sharp cutoff at the wrist and the hand is held at almost a 90 degree angle to the wrist. A very different style, but apparently equally effective in its own way. [I always studied Yang Forms]. There is also Kuang Ping, I believe, but that is a more restricted school that isn't present in most places in the world. > Howard, I'm sure meanwhile you'll have no problems coping with the 'Abhidhammic > arsenal' with your usual equanimity (and you can usually call on Rob Ep for a > bit of extra support;-) ) I'm always waiting in the wings, trying to process the day's interaction with my three year old daughter, who has inherited the accumulated will of both her mother and father! But when Howard calls, I am at the ready to log on and agree with him! Best, Robert Ep. 9287 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] same old questions/same old views --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > I read U Silanand's "No Inner Core - Anatta" and could agree with it > all as I read it........but what and why is this constant reversion > to old ways of thinking? (It is almost as if I cannot store new > memories on this one subject only ). Maybe I should drop it for a > while........... Dear Christine, I would recommend being kind and gentle to yourself, and taking these kinds of things slowly. I was deeply interested in Zen for many years without ever looking hard at Anatta. Why? Because our 'sense of self' does not want to encounter this concept and will do almost anything to avoid it. It is the death of the idea of everything that we tend to think we are as human beings. And so I suggest 'sipping' at it gradually, and tasting its content and possibilities -- advice that I am taking myself. I take a different little look at anatta every day, but I don't try to force myself to totally realize that there is not any internal or permanent entity within. I just take this as a concept and allow it to seep in as it will. Since playing with it this way, I have had some interesting flashes of insight. Once or twice I have had these moments when it is clear that there is 'just listening' with no one listening, or something of that sort. Rather than being scary, at the moment of actually encountering this it is liberating, like a clear space where there used to be a heavy mass in consciousness. There is no one to 'save' and so a lot of pressure is off for that moment. And then, as Joseph Conrad once said, 'the return to an eternal rest'. No one can decide when they'll 'get it' that there is no one to get it. It has to be a slow process by its nature, and the biggest requirement is patience, which doesn't come easily to any of us. Best, Robert Ep. 9288 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eightfold Path (esp. right effort) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > It might perhaps be suggested that the fact that someone who has not heard > the dhamma has no notion of the teaching of 'not-self' makes a difference. > However, I do not think this can truly be said. Both the one who has > studied dhamma and the non-Buddhist have an innate view of self, and both > can strive without at that moment there being a manifest view of a self > who is making effort. So there is not necessarily any difference between > the two here. > > I would be interested to hear your views on this. > > Jon Well Jon, for some reason this question is very confusing to me. I kind of enjoy being confused, but I'll see if I can get out of it. I have always thought that the difference between Buddhism and all other teachings, is that the Buddha inherently recognized that the path was one of consciousness and not of changing, altering or somehow fixing up the self. If a Buddhist is doing Buddhism to accumulate kusala, in the sense of 'bettering his self', then he is not really practicing Buddhism at that time. :Perhaps eventually he will see that the self is an illusion in the sense that he normally thinks of it, and then he will be practicing Buddhism. The attempt to see through the ordinary self and see that it is not one's actual identity, and the attempt to see what the nature of consciousness is beyond that, based on that discovery, to me is the Buddhist path. So the person who was trying to accumulate kusala without this understanding may call himself a Buddhist or something else, but he is not rightly on the path the Buddha discovered. The truth of anatta, that the psychophysical being that we find ourselves being in this life, is not a 'self', but a filter for the experience of consciousness, I think in some language or another we can all agree on -- you may not like my wording, or you may disagree on my emphasis on 'consciousness', but we can agree that the ordinary self is really not-self, or an empty concept that we mistake for the being that we think we are. That's what makes it a 'Buddhist' discussion. Beyond this, I see no reason to differentiate between mundane and supra-mundane Right Effort, in the sense that all Effort should be made with the understanding that there is no one at the center of such effort. Does that mean that effort is non-volitional? Does there need to be a self in order to have volition or will? Can consciousness, through focussing on certain factors, increase it's discernment? And is such focussing totally predetermined by kamma and khandas? These questions are open to dispute and might be disagreed about between us. But the basic truth that there is no central self coordinating the action, we would agree upon. And that would be a basic Buddhist perspective. So I see this view as making all the difference, and I don't see the path as being basically about accumulating kusala states, except in so far as this allows for greater discernment. In the past, I have argued for the application of Buddhist principles to the experience of kusala in the affairs of daily life. But this is because I was focussed in those issues on daily life and how to improve it. In truth, being around this list has 'killed' some of that for me. I have realized that fixing daily living is more a property of attachment and aversion than of progressing on the path of discernment. So perhaps I have either made some progress, or fallen into a trap of another kind. Anyway, Right Effort in a Buddhist sense does not exist without a notion of anatta. Without that, it is not Buddhist, and if it has that, it is Buddhist, whether it is on the mundane level or on the supramundane. I will be anxious to hear your comments on this. both Jon and Howard, and others. Best, Robert Ep. 9289 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eightfold Path (esp. right effort) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I think that one who has never heard a word of Dhamma could still end > up practicing the Buddha's path (very unlikely but still possible), and that > practice, if it in fact is the full practice, missing nothing, could > eventually lead to full enlightenment. Such a person would, indeed, be a > paccekabuddha (or, missing all the perfections, a lesser approximation of > that). I suspect - quite strongly - that the Buddha's path really is ekayana > (in the sense of "the only way", and not just "the direct way"), but that > anyone who follows that path even inadvertently, whether having heard the > Dhamma or not, is on the path to nibbana. > > With metta, > Howard Howard, Sorry to agree with you again so soon, but I would enter into evidence the vedantic sages I enjoy mentioning: Ramana Maharshi and Nisargardatta. By their pronouncements, I am personally quite convinced that they were fully enlightened and had no false notion remaining of a separate self or entity. I think they understood and experienced anatta fully without having the benefit of studying Buddhism. Best, Robert Ep. 9290 From: Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] same old questions/same old views --- Well put Rob. E., Anatta is the BIG one and it is not easy to see or accept even at the intellectual level - especially the fact that it means there is no one who can control. However, seeing it properly is not at all scary and does take a weight off. It is always the sense of self that hinders and sucks away our energy, that causes our fears. Knowing more about conditions and kamma - which is intimately tied in with anatta - means that one knows that many of our 'efforts' may be counterproductive. Letting go of these frees up much vitality. But we have to let anatta 'seep in slowly' as you say. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > I read U Silanand's "No Inner Core - Anatta" and could agree with it > > all as I read it........but what and why is this constant reversion > > to old ways of thinking? (It is almost as if I cannot store new > > memories on this one subject only ). Maybe I should drop it for a > > while........... > > Dear Christine, > I would recommend being kind and gentle to yourself, and taking these kinds of > things slowly. I was deeply interested in Zen for many years without ever looking > hard at Anatta. Why? Because our 'sense of self' does not want to encounter this > concept and will do almost anything to avoid it. It is the death of the idea of > everything that we tend to think we are as human beings. And so I suggest > 'sipping' at it gradually, and tasting its content and possibilities -- advice > that I am taking myself. I take a different little look at anatta every day, but > I don't try to force myself to totally realize that there is not any internal or > permanent entity within. I just take this as a concept and allow it to seep in as > it will. > > Since playing with it this way, I have had some interesting flashes of insight. > Once or twice I have had these moments when it is clear that there is 'just > listening' with no one listening, or something of that sort. Rather than being > scary, at the moment of actually encountering this it is liberating, like a clear > space where there used to be a heavy mass in consciousness. There is no one to > 'save' and so a lot of pressure is off for that moment. > > And then, as Joseph Conrad once said, 'the return to an eternal rest'. No one can > decide when they'll 'get it' that there is no one to get it. It has to be a slow > process by its nature, and the biggest requirement is patience, which doesn't come > easily to any of us. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 9291 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] same old questions/same old views Thanks for your response, Robert. Your comments bolster the idea that anatta is ultimately not frightening, but liberating. Regards, Robert Ep. ================= --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- > Well put Rob. E., > Anatta is the BIG one and it is not easy to see or accept even at the > intellectual level - especially the fact that it means there is no > one who can control. > However, seeing it properly is not at all scary and does take a > weight off. It is always the sense of self that hinders and sucks > away our energy, that causes our fears. Knowing more about conditions > and kamma - which is intimately tied in with anatta - means that one > knows that many of our 'efforts' may be counterproductive. Letting go > of these frees up much vitality. But we have to let anatta 'seep in > slowly' as you say. > robert > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > > > I read U Silanand's "No Inner Core - Anatta" and could agree > with it > > > all as I read it........but what and why is this constant > reversion > > > to old ways of thinking? (It is almost as if I cannot store new > > > memories on this one subject only ). Maybe I should drop it > for a > > > while........... > > > > Dear Christine, > > I would recommend being kind and gentle to yourself, and taking > these kinds of > > things slowly. I was deeply interested in Zen for many years > without ever looking > > hard at Anatta. Why? Because our 'sense of self' does not want to > encounter this > > concept and will do almost anything to avoid it. It is the death > of the idea of > > everything that we tend to think we are as human beings. And so I > suggest > > 'sipping' at it gradually, and tasting its content and > possibilities -- advice > > that I am taking myself. I take a different little look at anatta > every day, but > > I don't try to force myself to totally realize that there is not > any internal or > > permanent entity within. I just take this as a concept and allow > it to seep in as > > it will. > > > > Since playing with it this way, I have had some interesting flashes > of insight. > > Once or twice I have had these moments when it is clear that there > is 'just > > listening' with no one listening, or something of that sort. > Rather than being > > scary, at the moment of actually encountering this it is > liberating, like a clear > > space where there used to be a heavy mass in consciousness. There > is no one to > > 'save' and so a lot of pressure is off for that moment. > > > > And then, as Joseph Conrad once said, 'the return to an eternal > rest'. No one can > > decide when they'll 'get it' that there is no one to get it. It > has to be a slow > > process by its nature, and the biggest requirement is patience, > which doesn't come > > easily to any of us. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 9292 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard Dear Rob Ep, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your points here, once again. I > have > been enjoying being engaged with these micro-topics within the discernment of > realities, and I appreciate all of your interesting insights. Me too, and thanks again.... > I am a little slower lately in picking up threads and responding. > Unfortunately I > have gotten a little overwhelmed and I may lose my reputation for being > voluminous > [a great relief to all!]. I’m sure it wouldn’t be any relief to any of us and fortunately (looking ahead) it seems to have only lasted for a day or two;-) > But I am still following as best I can, and I really enjoy our > cyber-colloquies. > Thanks for your kind remarks as well. It's strange that so much dhamma > friendship > can exist over the internet, but it just shows that the means of > understanding and > communication are not dependent on any particular physical conditions. > > The little look I've been getting at the reality of cittas and cetasikas is > pretty > fascinating. I'll look foward to continuing these exchanges. Good, anytime....and I agree about the dhamma friendship;-) > This is a good metaphor and is helpful. I like the idea of the 'flavors' of > the > different factors affecting each other and interacting. This makes a lot of > sense. Let me ask one question: would you say that the citta is like a > window, a > sort of open door of awareness, through which the cetasikas perform more > specific > acts? I am getting the feeling that the real intelligence is carried by the > cetasikas, that they do the work, and the citta is more of a passive opening > of > awareness through which they function. I know that many people here have an idea of citta or consciousness as some kind of awareness which doesn’t ‘fit’ with my understanding of Abhidhamma and Tipitaka. As Num’s quote from the Atthasalani showed, the citta is more like a ‘king’ accompanied by his retune of advisers (cetasikas) who all have their specific tasks and duties. The king is still the leader (if he’s a good king) and not a mere ‘passive opening’. Seeing (as a citta) knows, in the sense of experiences, the visible object, but it needs phassa (contact) to connect, vedana (feeling) to feel, sanna (perception) to mark and so on. It’s true that if awareness and undestanding (which of course are cetasikas) are never developed to be aware of and understand the different namas, as not selves, and distinct from rupas, that these namas will never be comprehended. So we could say, perhaps that they (ie sati and panna) are the real intelligence if you like;-) > I still appreciate that basic idea you expressed about this the other day: > that > the first thing to look at is the distinction between namas and rupas in a > general > way. If you are having several moments of an experience you can keep looking > at > what it is and try to distinguish its basic area of reality. This is > confusing > enough and a good place to start. Then i guess you can try to get a sense of > the > types of qualities or functions that are present. Yes. Of course, this is all on a thinking level and in the end realities won’t be known by mere thinking. However, if the conceptual clarity is not there to quite some extent, then we’re bound to have the wrong idea of what awareness and other realities are, I think. > So it is more for the view than for the detail that these mechanics are > important. > One can see that on various levels, anicca and anatta are the functional > principles? This is a good question. I think the details have value both for the view (ie to eradicate the wrong view of self and control, conceptually, in the beginning) and in order to be a condition for awareness. We read and consider the difference between seeing and visible object and it may seem like academic nit-picking, and then one day, by conditions, awareness is aware of seeing or visible object. When I was writing about eye-base yesterday, I was reflecting on how its characteristic really can be known through the mind-door. It just depends on accumulations as to what reality will be known at what time. One thing for sure, however, is that if we have the idea of eye-base as being a physical organ or 'thing', there wond't be any awareness of these rupas. If we find, however, we’re just thinking and thinking and trying ‘to work it out’, it’s not so helpful. It always comes back to the present moment and reality. There can be awareness of thinking at those times which is more valuable than trying to work out the story. I’m just reminded about how Mike used to have aversion if there were too many Abhidhammic details and now, there he is in Bangkok, waxing lyrical about the Abhidhammic expertise at hand;-) It just depends on time and conditions (such as how it's being explained) as to what will be of interest and appeal to us. I do think, though, as Nina reminded us so well in her ‘Music’ post, that we should remember that Abhidhamma is not anything other than daily life. ......... > That is so very kind. I feel very lucky to have these exchanges. It's a > pleasure > to be here! Likewise, Rob I certainly learn a lot from your open-minded and sincere attitude. Hope you keep ahead of Life so we keep benefiting from your insights. Please let me know anytime if I write anything which isn't clear or which you don't agree with;-. Sarah 9293 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > The *speculation* as to whether "an arahant *choosing*, based on > compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an association with some realm or > realms of experience" is a possibility is not, in itself, productive. But the > *knowledge* of whether or not that is a possibility would be very useful. For > example, some Mahayanists have expressed the notion that vowing, prior to > being an arahant, to maintain such an association is necessary, and that > without having already established, quite strongly, such an intention, it is > too late to do so once one is an arahant. As regards myself, just on the off > chance ;-)) that, beyond parinibbana, keeping some sort of connection with a > samsaric realm is still possible, I have personally vowed (in my own mind) to > make such a connection. Wow. Robert Ep. 9294 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard Hi Howard, > > Hey, Howard, I wouldn't like to play any part in giving you nightmares, so > > I'm > > taking a 'nibbana-leave' for now and leaving it to others....;-) > --------------------------------------------- > Whew! ;-)) > -------------------------------------------- I didn’t think you’d be too upset..... > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Perhaps it's the Yang style? Specifically the Yang "long form" (108 > steps). That's what I'm learning. I'm about half-way through at this point. > (I previously learned the standard PRC government-issue 24-step form.) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Yes, you and Rob Ep know better than I do. I’ve now been through 3times under instruction (and the fast version with lots of circles once), but recently found I was making lots of mistakes in my own practise after a break when I moved house, so have resumed lessons. I’m a pretty slow learner (probably because I tend to still be thinking about students or posts here ;-), but I love it as a kind of exercise and when sufficiently motivated, get up very early to go outside and go through the sequence. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that one of the several benefits in going slowly in t'ai chi > (and elsewhere) is that it helps one to stay "present" without anticipating > what comes up next, a facility which is important in meditation. > --------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm, conventionally, I think this is very true. I’ve always been the rush around type, doing many things at once (like now;-) As a result, I’ve never enjoyed team or competitive sports as they just add more ‘stress’ and ‘rush around’. Yoga , tai chi , swimming and walking are perfect for me and realistically, as we get older and are more prone to injuries, they make more sense too. On the other hand, I don’t have any idea that in terms of sati being aware or ‘present’ or for any other kind of skilful mental states, that these kinds of exercise in themselves have any more benefit than tennis or squash. I know you and Rob Ep (and all my yoga friends) will probably disagree on this. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, it is very comforting having Robert "around"! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------ See, Rob, you manage to be a comfort to us all....quite a skill;-) You know, Howard, we’ve never visited New York. One day we will and we can have dhamma discussion AND Tai Chi together;-) So sorry New York has had yet another ‘blow’...hope you’re all doing OK. Sarah 9295 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Pirmsombat, May I also add my warm welcome to dsg. We forwarded your message from our dsg moderator account. In future you can just reply to anything here by using the 'reply' tag. It sounds as though you all had a wonderful trip to India. Jonothan's (Jon on dsg) been so busy since his return that I 've still only heard a little about the discussions (i.e. what he shares here). If you have any comments to add about the trip or discussions, I'd be delighted to hear them. May I ask if you've been studying with A.Sujin for long and whether we've met? If not, I hope to meet you on our next visit to Bkk. We're rather informal here and tend to drop titles (unless requested otherwise), except for bhikkhus of course. Hope you don't mind and please tell us anything further about your interest and studies in Buddhism. (Btw, I think we have a few doctors here, including Num). From your message, you've already joined dsg, but please let us know if you have any problems. Sarah --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- p Sallakachat wrote: > > > > hello i interest in Buddhism for 31 years. last > > month i went toIndia with > > dhamma group (SUJIN BORIHARNWANAKET).JONOTHAN ABBOTT > > gave > > me e-mail address to join dhammastudygroup. > > > > > > pirmsombat 9296 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 0:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Thanks for the helpful definitions and info! Robert Ep. ===== --- srnsk@a... wrote: > > < understanding of this term (just this term only :)). I think commentary > will be of great help when I ask Sarah why cittas must be sequential and I > ask Amara in DL list abt Sanna. the commentaries they quoted indeed help > me to understand the intracies of such meaning of pali words. As i do not > understand pali, hence a thorough definition of this term will be very > meaning to me. I have also read cetasikas defintion from the book by > Bhikkhu Bodhi. But I feel there is a lack of thorough presentation to > this term which I feel of paramount importance to our development as panna > is a cetasika. As I do not have the commentaries, a few quotes to me will > be indeed very appreciative.>> > > > > Hi Ken, > > Let me reverse the order of things a little bit. I think I have to put in > some definitions of citta to compare with cetasika. I am not sure I can > really answer your question and not sure exactly what you want to know. This > is good for me to review the material on this topic as well. I pretty much > cut and paste from various books, ok. Pls pardon me for some Pali terms. > > > Let me start with > > 1) Panna cetasika. > > From Nina's book: > "The Atthasalini then gives another definition of understanding: > Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering > penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a > skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a > lamp; non perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in the > forest. > The Visuddhimagga (Chapter XIV, 143) gives a similar definition. " > > As Christine mentioned there are different levels of panna. There can only be > direct understanding of realities when there is mindfulness of them. This is > my idea, no matter how much we read or discuss, if there is no direct > understanding at the moment of mindfulness, it is all pretty much panatti > (conventional) level. As I understand the goal of study is not to know the > theory or term but the reality. Studying, listening and discussing dhamma can > condition understanding. As I mentioned earlier, for me, from the quote from > Milindapanha, that it is hard to know the differences between the two. > > > 2) Citta > > From Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin > > .."The 4 characteristics of citta are > 1. Called "citta" because it experiences arammana clearly. > 2. Called "citta" because it accumulates innate tendencies with the > efficiency of javana-vithi. > 3. Called "citta" because it is a reality where kamma and kilesa accumulate > vipaka. > 4. Every citta is called "citta" because of its complex and intricate nature > according to the efficiency of the sampayutta-dhamma". > > Sampayutta-dhamma of citta is cetasika. > > From Atthasalini : "citta â€|.conizing object(aramana) is its characteristic, > forerunning is its function, connecting is its manifestation, a mental(nama) > and material(rupa) organism is its proximate cause. â€|" > > From Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin. "Citta is eminent and > presiding in knowing or experiencing. In the Atthasalini Cittupadakandha > there is a passage saying "Citta is the bhumi or place of origin of the > sampayutta-dhamma such as happiness. If there were no citta, the happy > feeling could not arise because there would be no basis, no point of origin > for happiness. Whenever sukha-vedana arises, citta is the bhumi, the basis, > the home of that sukha-vedana that arose with that citta. Therefore citta is > the bhumi, the home of its sampayutta-dhamma, which are the sukha-vedana and > other cetasika." > > Analogy from Milindapanha > V.Nagasena "â€|.. Just, sire, as the town-guard, seated at the cross-roads in > middle of the town, would see a man coming from the west, the south, the > north: so your majesty, the object seen by the eyes, the sound heard by the > ear, the smell smelt by the nose, the taste tasted by the tongue, the > tangible touched by the body, the idea cognized by the mind, is cognized by > consciousness' (citta)". There for it is said to have the function of > forerunning". > > > 3) Cetasika > > From abhidhammattha sangaha > "Cetasika = Ceta + s + ika > That which is associated with mind or consciousness is cetasika. (Sanskrit - > caitasika or caitti). > Definition- > Cetasika is > (i) that which arises together with consciousness, > (ii) that which perishes together with it, > (iii) that which has an identical object with it, > (iv) that which has a common basis with it." > > Another analogy from abhidhammattha sangaha, Thai version. In watercolor > painting, citta is like water, cetasika is like colors. Only water alone > cannot make the painting appear, nor only the color alone. When there are > paper, water and color then the painting can appear on the paper or canvas, > and of course the view or a model is like the object. (like conscious needs > citta&cetasika, material base (vathu) and object(aramana) to arise). > > > Hope I put something relevant to your question. > > Best wishes, > > Num 9297 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] same old questions/same old views Dear Christine, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Your quotes from the posts on Anatta were interesting - I am > starting to explore the 'Useful Posts' in the files section. .................... S:You may like to look at the ones under ‘Intention’ and ‘Right Effort’ which are also closely related. (The groupings and selections are very arbitrary and subjective). .................... > Because many parts of the Dhamma are so interwoven with other parts, > a question or doubt or misunderstanding arising about one part > cascades across other areas. And so, my not quite understanding > Anatta, can raise questions for me about Kamma..... in the arising, or the cultivation, or the investigation, listening, > ignoring, thinking, speaking or acting. If there is no chooser, how > can there be,or have been a choice>. So - if no-one > is 'responsible'.....why do *I* get hurt, or *I* have loses, or *I* > suffer, or in any way inherit the results of past kamma? How do the > fruits of kamma get attracted to/inherited by/follow a particular > entity/conglomeration throughout time? *Something* seems to stay > together......... .................... S: Excellent questions and comments. As you’re appreciating, the different aspects and topics in the Dhamma are all interwoven. This is why some of us don’t distinguish the meanings found in different baskets or subjects. So, as you say, there’s no chooser or choice. There are however, various mental factors such as intention and effort. However, these mental factors like all others, arise momentarily with a moment of consciousness, perform their tasks and are gone. We certainy have the illusion, as you suggest, that *I* get hurt and so on. What is it, really, that is experienced at these times? Let’s say we hear some bad news (conventionally speaking) and suffer as a result. Do we really hear bad news or aren’t there just moments of hearing sounds, marking, remembering and noting those sounds and then lots of thinking about the ‘bad news’, accompanied by unpleasant feelings and aversion? We think it’s what we hear that has caused the suffering, but in fact the hearing of sounds, (good or bad vipaka, result of kamma), doesn’t ‘hurt’ us at all. If there were no thinking, no story, no aversion, where would the bad news be? When Jon had a tumour a couple of years ago, he experienced no pain at all (ie no unpleasant bodily feelings) and yet as soon as we were told ‘the news’ our lives were turned upside down by the thinking and the stories. We can say conventionally that it is ‘Christine’s’ deed as opposed to ‘Sarah’s’ deed that will bring a result for Christine and on one level it’s true. In reality, however, they are just cittas, cetana (intention) and vipaka and so on that are ‘specific’ but contain no ‘Christine’ or ‘Sarah’ at all. I understand and appreciate your question. I’m not at all sure my answer will help. I think Nina wrote a good post on kamma (look under this title). Let me know if you’d like any of us to try and say more. It's not an easy one .................... > . Sometimes I seem to understand not-self, but then at other times > find myself back at the beginning, holding the same old views - as if > it hadn't been explained to me before, and I hadn't felt I > understood. Sorry, I know I'm asking the same type of questions > that I thought I had sorted out a while ago. .................... S: I think it’s like this for everyone. When I see Khun Sujin, she talks to me about just the same realities she talked to me about 25yrs ago. I’m sure Nina would say the same, but add on even more years. Please keep asking and questioning;-) .................... > Once I had a conversation with some fundamentalist Christians who > called at my home to save my soul - and left disappointed. The > basic unwritten, unspoken rule for the conversation, was that the > discussion had to take place within the boundaries of the texts in > the Christian Bible. Any question was settled by "proofs" extracted > from the texts "Jehovah God said...." quote>. They were unable to grasp that, for me, this form of > discussion 'within a capsule', wasn't a valid way of discovering > truth. > > It sometimes seems to me that some buddhists use similar methods > when discussing self only from 'within a set of rules' regarding > what can be mentioned about the characteristics of a self. e.g. in > the quote exercised over them, they are therefore not-self because void>. > Why does one of the characteristics of a self have to be that it can > magically 'will' or 'control' changes to facets of > itself......otherwise there is not a self? .................... S: I think I understand what you’re saying. I don’t quite agree perhaps. You wondered why some of us (me most recently) had mentioned there is no ‘control’ and asked for references on this from the Tipitaka. To approach ‘anatta’ from another angle, we can just talk about seeing, feeling, hardness and aversion and their characteristics and functions. We don’t have to mention self or non-self at all. However, by understanding these realities more and more precisely, the understanding knows that they are just mental and pysical phenomena, not belonging to or containing anyone in their natures or characteristics and merely conditioning but not controlling other realities. When there is awareness of one of these realities, there is no mention of self or non-self at all. .................... > I read U Silanand's "No Inner Core - Anatta" and could agree with it > all as I read it........but what and why is this constant reversion > to old ways of thinking? (It is almost as if I cannot store new > memories on this one subject only ). Maybe I should drop it for a > while........... .................... S: Don’t feel frustrated! How long have we wandered around in samsara with an idea of self? How long has there been any consideration of anatta? Just the fact that you’re here asking these essential questions, reading very useful articles like the one you referred us to, aware of old and new ways of thinking and so on, shows just how much exmination and questioning there is. The real answer, of course, is that there can be some wise consideration, maybe a little awareness, and then there’s bound to be doubt, wondering, thinking with wrong views and so on. Just like the giant jig-saw puzzle, the pieces will slot into place, but they need a little time and patience;-) Christine, I’d fel very honoured if you come back with anything you don’t like, disagree with or wish to question further in this post (or my last one) to you. It really isn’t an easy path for any of us and your questions and difficulties are helpful for us all. ................... metta to you too, Sarah 9298 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Music Dear Herman, p.s. to my message yesterday, > > With regards to all the activities that fill the day, I am reading > > some stuff re lucid dreaming / awareness during sleep (it seems such > > a waste to be "out of it" for eight hours every day). > > > > Are there any Theradava sources re sleeping with awareness? you might try asking Rob Ep for advice as he seems to survive well by staying up most the night - maybe he's sleeping with awareness while he types at his 'super' speed;-)) S. 9299 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 0:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa Jon, Your explanations are to the point and do a good job of answering the questions. I guess it's just a matter of not trusting any secondary source completely on such a comprehensive interpretation. Since there is not a direct link between the suttas and the commentaries, I will have to rely on my own study to see if the explanations make sense to me over time. I just don't think that one can grant the complete faith, the 'automatic' acceptance, as it were, even to arahants, that one would grant to the Buddha himself and his direct statements. That is not to say that the arahants are not great masters and worthy of taking extremely seriously in conjunction with the suttas. But I would want to know exactly who was writing the commentaries and what their relation was to the direct lineage of the Buddha. As I have said recently, however, I find the glimpses of the commentaries I have seen to be 'warm' and clear. The warmth is a kind of spiritual emanation which I believe is perceptible in the words and presence of great Masters. More than anything else, this convinces me at least to the extent that I have experienced it, that the commentaries are genuine and worthy of deep attention. Another issue remains as well: how we interpret the commentaries. They are not so simple and straightforward in many aspects, and require study and discernment in their own right. So much for a simple, direct path! I guess it's not meant to be that way! But it is very exciting. Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Is there a particular area in the commentaries that is translated, that > > shows how > > the scheme you have explained below is derived from the Suttas on the 4 > > Noble > > Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path? > > > > I would like to see how this interpretation of the Path was conceived. > > Rob, I appreciate your wanting to trace this interpretation back to a > particular passage or passages in the suttas. However, I don't think this > can be done, in the sense that you are asking about. > > This is not to say that the commentaries are purely a product of the > compiler's mind. Rather, the commentaries represent an explanation of the > sutta text pitched at a level that is comprehensible to those whose > understanding is not of the same level as that of the Buddha's original > audience. I will try to explain what I mean by this. > > A person who is able to fully understand a complex and highly detailed > scientific principle may, in order to make the principle intelligible to > lay-people, explain it using a kind of language and detail that on the > face of it differs from that used by the scientist who discovered the > principle and expounded it to the scientific community. This does not > make the explanation in layman's terms any less the principle as expounded > by its discoverer. > > Similarly, as I understand it, the commentaries are merely an exposition > in more detailed form of what was actually said by the Buddha, given by > those who have fully grasped the teaching. > > There are several passages in the commentaries that assume or directly > support the interpretation I have given. Indeed, I believe this > interpretation has been the accepted one until comparatively recent times. > The current day notion of the Noble Eightfold Path as being a > prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path factors > is to be developed separately and individually, somehow culminating in > supramundane consciousness, is not as far as I know found in any of the > ancient commentaries. > > I think also that there are a number of contextual 'clues' in the suttas > that point to the interpretation I have given. I have mentioned some of > these before, but perhaps this would be a good time to recap. > > 1. The Noble Eightfold Path is given as one of the Four Noble Truths. > The significance of this is perhaps not always appreciated. The Four > Noble Truths are *understandings to be realised*, and this applies as much > to the 4th truth (the Noble Eightfold Path) as it does the other 3 truths. > As such (ie. a truth to be realised) it is descriptive of a moment of > attainment rather than a way of practice leading to that attainment. > (Likewise, the Four Noble Truths are given as one of the ‘mental objects’ > of the development of satipatthana in the Satipatthana Sutta. This again > shows their nature as ‘truths to be realised’ by one who is developing > awareness). > > 2. It is a 'path' in the sense that once this moment has been experienced > final enlightenment is inevitable in the fullness of time. Prior to the > first of the 4 stages of enlightenment (ie. at the mundane level), > attainment to final enlightenment is not assured. The texts refer to one > who has attained to stream entry as a *'path-winner'* or 'trainer', > whereas one who has not attained to a moment of supramundane experience is > referred to as an ‘uninstructed worldling’. So it is not a path in the > sense of being a 'path of practice' for the worldling, as the term seems > to be understood nowadays. > > 3. The Four Noble Truths, with the Noble Eightfold Path as the 4th, are > given as the culmination of the so-called 'gradual instruction' > (anupubbii-kathaa -- see entry from Buddh. Dict. pasted below) found > throughout the suttas. As I understand it, the teaching of the gradual > instruction was in many cases followed by the enlightenment of the > listener, that is to say, without any period of 'practice' between hearing > the 4th Noble Truths about the Noble Eightfold Path and the attainment of > enlightenment. > > 5. The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are also given as 'factors for > enlightenment' (bodhipakkhiya-dhamma, lit. 'things pertaining to > enlightenment', of which there are 37 in 7 groups -- see entry from Buddh. > Dict. pasted below). If the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, > developed individually and separately, are the path to enlightenment, what > is the significance of the other 29 factors? And why is the Noble 8-fold > Path given as the last of the 7 groups of factors? > > 6. Finally, a general comment on the view that the Noble Eightfold Path > is a prescription for a method of practice whereby each of the 8 path > factors are to be developed separately and individually, somehow > culminating in supramundane consciousness. If that were so, then it would > mean that each of the path factors (except for right view) could be > developed, and indeed is presumably even now being developed, by persons > who have never heard of the dhamma. I say this because, taking 'right > effort' as an example, people who have never heard the dhamma do exert > conventional effort to have more kusala. I can see no difference between > this person and the dhamma practitioner who likewise exerts conventional > effort to have more kusala -- or am I missing something here? > > > Also, is there a part of the commentaries that explains the discovery of > > one citta > > arising at a time and passing on its attributes to the next citta, based > > on a > > particular aspect of parts of the Suttas? I would like to understand > > from where > > this was derived as well by the Arahats that composed the commentaries. > > The 'single stream of cittas' concept is I believe found in or derived > from the abhidhamma, although it is of course entirely consistent with > everything found in the suttas. There may be some passages in the suttas > that imply this, but I am not aware of any at the moment. > > Rob, I don't know if I have addressed the exact point you were interested > in -- I do hope I have. > > Jon > > From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > > ánupubbí-kathá: > 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the Buddha when it was > necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on > the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths. > The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: > "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he > spoke on liberality ('giving', dána), on moral conduct (síla) and on the > heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of > sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One > perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from > obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted > teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhánam sámukkamsiká desaná), that > is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." > > bodhipakkhiya-dhammá: > The 37 'things pertaining to enlightenment', or 'requisites of > enlightenment' comprise the entire doctrines of the Buddha. They are: > the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.), > the 4 right efforts (s. padhána), > the 4 roads to power (iddhi-páda, q.v.), > the 5 spiritual faculties (indriya; s. bala), > the 5 spiritual powers (bala, q.v.), > the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), > the Noble 8-fold Path (s. magga). > > 9300 From: Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:15am Subject: Re: Seeing Dear Sarah You wrote to Ken O; > S: Perhaps I should clarify (emphasise) and say that what is needed is eye-base (cakkhuppasada rupa). When we talk about organ or brain, we're talking about concepts and not the precise realities the Buddha explained. > --------------------- KH: I have seen this explained so many times, and yet it is still hard to appreciate that there is not only `eye the concept,' there is also `eye the paramattha dhamma.' Perhaps I need to revise my mental image of a rupa. It has been discussed here that it is unhelpful to think of a citta as being like a physical object with cetasikas inside it; equally, a rupa must be something entirely different from any physical object. Changing the subject, I have made some progress in tracking down that odd-sounding phrase, `to find yourselves.' It is in Narada Maha Thera's "The Buddha and His Teachings" Chapter 7. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to give a reference for it. (You may remember I've had this trouble before.) My recollection was basically correct; the young men, who had been robbed by a courtesan, "seeing the Buddha, inquired of him whether he had seen a woman passing that way. "Which do you think, young men, is better; seeking a woman or seeking oneself?" questioned the Buddha. "Seeking oneself is better, O Lord!" replied the young men."" They listened attentively and, "obtained the eye of truth (dhammacakkhu)." I'm not particularly anxious to track this down any further, are you? We can safely assume that it doesn't refer to that eternal self we are all secretly hoping to discover. :-) Kind regards Ken H 9301 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard --- Sarah wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, it is very comforting having Robert "around"! ;-)) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > See, Rob, you manage to be a comfort to us all....quite a skill;-) Well, gee, Sarah, I guess that's making up for all the trouble I cause in person!! Seriously, though, the feeling is mutual, to you and Howard both. > You know, Howard, we’ve never visited New York. One day we will and we can have > dhamma discussion AND Tai Chi together;-) So sorry New York has had yet another > ‘blow’...hope you’re all doing OK. > > Sarah Well, if you all meet in New York, I will be there! I'm a native New Yorker and live just 'around the corner' now, in Washington, D.C. Are you in New York, Howard? Glad to see we're well represented there. Best, Robert Ep. 9302 From: Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:21am Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa Dear Robert Ep. You wrote to Howard and Jon: > Is there an inherent difference between Buddhists and non-Buddhists? As 'beings', I would say there isn't. We're all in the same boat. But Buddhism allows one to go beyond the final illusions of a separate or permanent self or entity > ------------------------------- KH: I would like to agree with, and comment on, the point you are making here. Being without panna of the lokuttara kind, worldling Dhamma-students are, as you say, in the same boat as worldling non-Dhamma-students. Robert K recently explained how, without panna, even the most highly developed kusala can only lead to aeon upon aeon of heavenly existence. In time, the chain of rebirths (samsara), must lead even the greatest worldlings back to lowly realms. For some of us, conditions are such that, in this lifetime, we are able to hear the Dhamma. Those of us who have encountered people like K. Sujin, Nina, and co., are able to have the Dhamma *correctly explained.* Given this opportunity, we should act with the urgency of that proverbial fellow whose turban is on fire. But it is not effort of the conventional kind that is called for. The right effort (samma-vayama), which leads to release from samsara, is an absolute reality; it is brought about, not by illusory beings, but by another absolute reality, right understanding (samma-ditthi). I gather from your message as a whole, that you don't entirely agree with this -- needless to say you may be right. In any case, no harm will be done, provided we worldlings treat all views (ditthi), as descriptive, not prescriptive. Kind regards Ken H. 9303 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Music --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Herman, > > p.s. to my message yesterday, > > > > > With regards to all the activities that fill the day, I am reading > > > some stuff re lucid dreaming / awareness during sleep (it seems such > > > a waste to be "out of it" for eight hours every day). > > > > > > Are there any Theradava sources re sleeping with awareness? > > you might try asking Rob Ep for advice as he seems to survive well by staying > up most the night - maybe he's sleeping with awareness while he types at his > 'super' speed;-)) > > S. ha ha. I hate to admit it, but I'm pretty tired. Still, I'm doing with less sleep than I thought possible and getting *most* things done. Best, Robert Ep. 9304 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa --- khow14@h... wrote: > I gather from your message as a whole, that you don't entirely agree > with this -- needless to say you may be right. In any case, no harm > will be done, provided we worldlings treat all views (ditthi), as > descriptive, not prescriptive. Hi Ken. Rather than saying that I don't agree, I think I would say that I am still in a process of gradual discernment.... Sounds pretty vague, eh? I am just not sure or clear about the question of volition and intention. I believe it is possible for volition and intention to exist without a 'self'. They may be the properties of consciousness just as easily as any other properties that we talk about. So I just don't think that anatta in itself settles the question of whether volition and intention can be exercised on the mundane level and make a difference in the path. As I say, I am mainly 'just not clear' about this yet. I think it needs more reflection on my part. I may then agree that there is no effort other than in the sense that it is usually talked about here -- as a product rather than a cause of understanding. Meanwhile, i don't really 'disagree' either, although this view was not my initial impression. I find the distinctions here provocative and I tend to hold onto them and chew them over slowly. Thanks for your response. I appreciate the dialogue. Best, Robert Ep. 9305 From: Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/14/01 2:44:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > You know, Howard, we’ve never visited New York. One day we will and we can > have > dhamma discussion AND Tai Chi together;-) > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That would be lovely, Sarah! ------------------------------------------------------------- So sorry New York has had yet another> > ‘blow’...hope you’re all doing OK. > > ============================ Thanks. We're all fine, and we don't personally know any people who were affected. BTW, I *believe* I may have heard the explosion of the plane. I live maybe 10 miles from the crash site. Exactly at the time of the crash I heard a very odd "popping" or concussion sound outside the house to which my (internal) reaction was "Oh, no, what's that!", thinking that something terrible might have happened. I looked around outside but there was nothing unusual. On the other hand, I have heard no reports of other people hearing what I heard, so it might have been something else entirely. In any case, there *is* getting to be a bit of a nightmarish quality to life here. Thanks for your kind inquiry, Sarah. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9306 From: Date: Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/14/01 4:18:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Are you in New York, Howard? Glad to see we're well represented there. > ========================= Yep. I live on Long Island, and I teach at Queens College. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9307 From: Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 3:12am Subject: worldling --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > 2. It is a 'path' in the sense that once this moment has been experienced > final enlightenment is inevitable in the fullness of time. Prior to the > first of the 4 stages of enlightenment (ie. at the mundane level), > attainment to final enlightenment is not assured. The texts refer to one > who has attained to stream entry as a *'path-winner'* or 'trainer', > whereas one who has not attained to a moment of supramundane experience is > referred to as an `uninstructed worldling'. So it is not a path in the > sense of being a 'path of practice' for the worldling, as the term seems > to be understood nowadays. > > +++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Jon, The commentaries talk about two types of putthujana (worldling): 1) the uninstructed, foolish one and 2) the kalyana-putthujana (good worldling) who is learning and developing the path. best wishes robert 9308 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 4:09am Subject: Re: Commentaries Dear Robert K., I am so glad you recommended The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, among others. Being at the mercy of the book dealers, it just happened to be the one they had in stock of a number I ordered - I am told that there is now a wait of about four months until the others arrive..... I am looking forward to the 'All Embracing Net of Views: The Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries', as its' main aim apparently is to clear away the conceptual and intellectual distortions that hinder the acquisition of right view - and I have lots of those distortions. I'm only up to page 29 (the end of The More Excellent Fruits of Recluseship) and I have no questions so far that Bhikkhu Bodhi hasn't covered in his translation of the commentary, only the same aversion I always feel when 'faith' is mentioned....left over from my Christian (blind belief) days I suppose.....On p.29 42-43 the first step along the path, is described as the gaining of faith in the Tathagata. "A householder, or a householders son, or one born into some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith.....(leads to going forth into homelessness). I enjoy Bhikku Bodhi's writing style, but one extra bonus is the description of people's backgrounds and the culture of that time. The people and their relatives mentioned in the sutta are much more real. Their personalities are fleshed out. For instance, to know that King Ajatasattu of Magadha (who asks the question on whether there were any fruits of recluseship visible here and now) was a parricide (killed his father King Bimbisara) from a line of parricides with a number of descendents who would commit the same crime, explains his sudden panic attack and suspicion when approaching the Mango Farm to speak with the Buddha. How poignant is his love for his son, who would eventually kill him also. While Ajatasattu's mother was pregnant with him 2500 years ago, she experienced an exotic variety of what many pregnant women go through today - cravings. It is uncommon, but not unknown, for women I see in the Maternity Unit to experience 'pica'. One I knew began eating dirt and clay - the midwives told me it was possibly a sign of calcium and magnesium deficiency. When I mentioned Ajatasattus's mother (though not by name!), they thought it was within the bounds of possibility that she may have had some nutritional (?iron ) deficiency.....the Queen had a craving to drink the kings' blood - which he lovingly provided for her to mix with water. The Astrologers on hearing this, and knowing the family history, not unreasonably predicted "This child in her womb will be the king's enemy. He will kill the king". The Queen was beside herself and tried to procure an abortion, but was prevented, and also stopped from killing him after the birth. (?post-natal depression or psychosis). One wonders how often Ajattasatu heard the story about the prediction that he would kill his father King Bimbisara - self fulfilling prophecy? family tradition? ..... Anyway, I won't ramble on, but the people in the sutta don't seem like cardboard story book characters anymore. Apart from differences in culture and lifestyle, I see them on the T.V. news every night. It's like dressing the actors in a 'period piece' in modern day clothes. keeping on, metta, Christine 9309 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 4:19am Subject: Re: meththa meditation Dear Mike, >Is there someone who can will the arising of mettaa or >any other cetasika? If a person start to do mettha meditaion I thought you can get the feeling of meththa... well may be you can go a little far, say from yourself, your parents...etc. (But also I think even to arise the feeling of mettha towards yourself is difficult). >If mettaa does arise, what are it's characteristics at that moment? Will >it last? For how long? Is there attachment to the pleasant feeling attending it? Aversion to its absence orloss?> A> lot of >young people who are being brought up under the> influence of western >cultures experience subtle lack of self esteem,> subtle self hatred, >feelings of worthlessness and thinking they are not good> enough. Aversion is always akusala, no matter what the object--self-image, injustice, Ronald MacDonald, whatever. It's also always accompanied by an upleasant feeling. Adosa (just the absence of aversion) is always kusala and (I think--not certain about this) always accompanied by a pleasant feeling. Unfortunately, lobha is also accompanied by pleasant feeling and is very difficult to distinguish from adosa, not to mention mettaa. So understanding of the characteristics of all these phenomena is so much more important than any reflection that might, for the moment, cause 'us' to 'feel better about 'ourselves''. Mike; I get your point. the feeling of meththa too is impermanent. But dont you think without it there would be something missing in the path? >If one wants to truly undermine unhappiness, the way is to begin to >understand the characteristics of the present moment--at what other moment could understanding arise? As I understand it, this is the only way to even begin to truly eradicate the underlying tendency to aversion of anykind--including 'low self-esteem'. Yes, but is it to a person who has done a lot of meditation or can a beginer also do it. >Certainly various kinds of concentration can temporarily suppress the kilesas and the unpleasant feelings which accompany some of them. The key word is 'suppress'--once the samadhi is gone, the underlying tendency for the arising of the kilesas is still in place, >>>>>if not strengthened>>>>>>> I dont get you here. Is kilesas strengthened here due to a kind of a strengthened mind due to various kinds of concentration? >Who is there to give 'oneself' anything? Where is the lasting virtue of all this thinking? It might condition a pleasant feeling for a little while (or it might not--very frustrating!)--but when the conditions that led to it are exhausted it's gone--it was just a temporary distraction from a real and persistent problem, that of dukkha. Mettaa-bhavana and all the other kinds of kusala are fine (if they're real--difficult to know)-- >>>>>except that they all just lead to more samsara.>>>>> Mike; but isnt it easy for a person to cultivate understanding (I hope by doing vipassana meditaion) if he has already practissed some kind of meditation? Also, I cant understand how kusala will lead to more samsara. >Only the cultivation of understanding will lead (eventually) to the eradication of the defilements and liberation. Dear Mike; what is the method of cultivating understanding? >>>Please excuse the rant--just my opinions... I am so grateful to you for your comments and thank you for your teachings. ~meththa, Ranil 9310 From: Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 5:20am Subject: Re: Commentaries --- Very glad the book is upholding the promise I made, Christine. I think the surrounding stories give us hints of the deeper reasons for our habits and foibles. Cultures have all sorts of reasons for behaviour and result and our current 'scientific' worldview propounds many reasons why this and that happens. What it can't see is the long history of accumulations and past kamma that is always influencing our paths. This the Buddhist scriptures reveal by the stories they explain. I find this is something I begin to sense personally in a way that is hard to prove but that feels very comforting. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert K., > > I am so glad you recommended The Discourse on the Fruits of > Recluseship, among others. Being at the mercy of the book dealers, > it just happened to be the one they had in stock of a number I > ordered - I am told that there is now a wait of about four months > until the others arrive..... I am looking forward to the 'All > Embracing Net of Views: The Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries', > as its' main aim apparently is to clear away the conceptual and > intellectual distortions that hinder the acquisition of right view - > and I have lots of those distortions. > > I'm only up to page 29 (the end of The More Excellent Fruits of > Recluseship) and I have no questions so far that Bhikkhu Bodhi hasn't > covered in his translation of the commentary, only the same aversion > I always feel when 'faith' is mentioned....left over from my > Christian (blind belief) days I suppose.....On p.29 42-43 the first > step along the path, is described as the gaining of faith in the > Tathagata. "A householder, or a householders son, or one born into > some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he > gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith.....(leads to > going forth into homelessness). > > I enjoy Bhikku Bodhi's writing style, but one extra bonus is the > description of people's backgrounds and the culture of that time. The > people and their relatives mentioned in the sutta are much more real. > Their personalities are fleshed out. > For instance, to know that King Ajatasattu of Magadha (who asks the > question on whether there were any fruits of recluseship visible here > and now) was a parricide (killed his father King Bimbisara) from a > line of parricides with a number of descendents who would commit the > same crime, explains his sudden panic attack and suspicion when > approaching the Mango Farm to speak with the Buddha. How poignant is > his love for his son, who would eventually kill him also. > While Ajatasattu's mother was pregnant with him 2500 years ago, she > experienced an exotic variety of what many pregnant women go through > today - cravings. It is uncommon, but not unknown, for women I see > in the Maternity Unit to experience 'pica'. One I knew began eating > dirt and clay - the midwives told me it was possibly a sign of > calcium and magnesium deficiency. When I mentioned Ajatasattus's > mother (though not by name!), they thought it was within the bounds > of possibility that she may have had some nutritional (?iron ) > deficiency.....the Queen had a craving to drink the kings' blood - > which he lovingly provided for her to mix with water. The > Astrologers on hearing this, and knowing the family history, not > unreasonably predicted "This child in her womb will be the king's > enemy. He will kill the king". The Queen was beside herself and > tried to procure an abortion, but was prevented, and also stopped > from killing him after the birth. (?post-natal depression or > psychosis). One wonders how often Ajattasatu heard the story about > the prediction that he would kill his father King Bimbisara - self > fulfilling prophecy? family tradition? ..... Anyway, I won't ramble > on, but the people in the sutta don't seem like cardboard story book > characters anymore. Apart from differences in culture and lifestyle, > I see them on the T.V. news every night. It's like dressing the > actors in a 'period piece' in modern day clothes. > > keeping on, > metta, > Christine 9311 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Hi Num Come to think abt it. The problem is initially I been diversifying vedana as sought of different entity on its own. Further reading from other sources what is cetasikas, it leads me to view that cetasikas are part of nama like citta. They are classified so that we have a better understanding of nama. Hence to me when we experience vedana, it is vedana that tell citta it is a feeling but it is the citta that actually experience the feeling. Citta needs vedana to feel without it, it cannot know what is feeling and differentiate the feeling. To me they are part and parcel of nama. What I was trying to say abt seeing is that it is the cittas that actually experience the see, it is the eye base and eye sense that facilitates the seeing. Without this eye base and eye sense, that does not mean the ability to see is lost bc it is cittas that knows/cognize the seeing. I think these are two totally different issues here. Thanks on the passage on Vedana by Aj, Sujin. A lot of Buddhist teachers, emphasis on this particular part of the dependent origination bc it is the most noticeable one and that makes it easy for practising sati. Personally in my view it is sanna that condition feeling. To me, through perception and memory, we tends to preceive words that we listen or images that we have seen in a certain way due to past habits, resulting a pleasant or unpleasant feeling to arise to words or images except for bodily causes of feelings. One question, does citta can only cognize one object at a time or a few objects at a time simultaneously during its momentary existence. Kind regards Ken O --- srnsk@a... wrote: > > << the cetasikas (Vedana) that feels or it is the Citta that feel? My > thinking was that cetasikas are just prism that filter and it is the > cittas that knows the feeling and not vedana.>>> > > Hi Ken, > > Good to see that you have been reflecting about the topic. I am too, > it's good for me to consider about the subject as well. I did also read your post to Sarah on Seeing. I do not understand what you referred to as physical seeing. You said that it's citta that cognizes the object, that is my understanding as well. Rupa, material, cannot cognize anything. Seeing conscious needs a lot of conditions to arise, and only stay extremely briefly and then falls away the same as conditions. > > Again, let me repeat myself that, …< understanding of realities when there is mindfulness (sati) of them. This is my idea, no matter how much we read or discuss, if there is no direct understanding at the moment of mindfulness, it is all pretty much panatti (conventional) level. As I understand the goal of study is not to know the theory or term but the reality.>> I think this is very important. > > Now get back to your question Vedana and citta. May I refer to Nina's > chapter > 2, Vedana, http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas4.html Her writing > can > explain your question pretty clearly. My understanding is citta is a > leader > of the band in cognizing object but citta and cetasika (nama-dhamma: > reality > which is able to know) are mutually supportive (as characters of > cetasika in > Abhidhammattha Sangaha). There is no citta without cetasika and vice > versa. > > This is my guess to your question. Because the nature of this two > phenomena > is so well blended, and the ability of citta that can know different > kinds of > object including material (rupa), citta, cetasika, nibbana as well as > concept/signification/name (pannatti). So cetasika as well as citta can > also be an object (arammana) for the later citta to cognize. If Nina have time, I am sure that she can explain this better than me. So previous vedana can be an object for later citta as well. > > I'd better stop here. This is not easy for me either. I enjoy your good > questions. Addendum comment from anyone are appreciated. > > > Num > > > PS. Let me cut from Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin regarding > the importance of vedana. > > << In the Anguttaranikaya Ekanipata Dutiyapannasaka Sanimitta the third > vagga, 328, there is a passage saying: Behold, Bhikkhu, dhamma that is > sinful akusala arises because there is vedana. Without vedana, it does not arise. By abandoning the vedana the dhamma that is sinful akusala would no longer be. > (Other passages are about sanna-cetasika, which is the sanna-khandha, > other cetasika that are sankhara-khandha and the citta which are > vinnana-khandha.) > This shows that the vedana-cetasika, which are feelings, are the basis > of tenacious attachments. Since there is no knowledge of the truth about vedana-cetasika, one cannot abandon the feeling that there is oneself. The knowledge of the characteristics of vedana-cetasika would condition and support sati to arise and know the characteristics of vedana. Otherwise one would not realize that every day there is vedana in the same way that each day there are only realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, only because citta arise to know these realities. > But imagine if one does not feel anything, when one sees the world > there would be no perturbation. If one does not feel any emotion after > hearing, one would not feel disturbed either. And the same applies to smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact, there would be no akusala of any kind. > But because feelings arise, there is attachment and clinging to the > feelings and desiring the objects that make us feel glad and happy, which cause akusala-dhamma to arise frequently without our awareness. All dhamma are anatta and none can prevent vedana-cetasika from arising. Whenever citta arises there must be vedana-cetasika that feels the arammana of the moment. > Even now there must be vedana-cetasika of one kind or another being > upekkha-vedana, sukha-vedana, dukkha-vedana, somanassa-vedana or > domanassa-vedana. The aim of studying dhamma is not merely to know the > number or names but the characteristics of the feelings one is having. > If sati does not arise to be conscious of the feelings that we are havin now, even though that feeling is real: it has arisen and fallen away, since we do not know the true characteristics of that feeling, we would take it for the selves, which are happy, unhappy, glad, sad or indifferent. >> 9312 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetasikas Hi Num, Just like to share something that I have been reflecting on cittas and cetasika. A king has many retinues. During war, a king change hat to a military commander, it has arms, soldiers retinue in time of war. This I call akusala and its cetasikas. In times of peace work, a king has change hat to the development of society charity works etc. This I called kuasala and its cetasikas. During other arise cittas, a king just change hats. But it is still the king that calls the shots, the rest supports what the king is doing. The king still has its retinues just that they are not manifested when the king takes on different roles. Kind regards Ken O --- srnsk@a... wrote: > > << the cetasikas (Vedana) that feels or it is the Citta that feel? My > thinking was that cetasikas are just prism that filter and it is the > cittas that knows the feeling and not vedana.>>> > > Hi Ken, > > Good to see that you have been reflecting about the topic. I am too, > it's > good for me to consider about the subject as well. I did also read your > post > to Sarah on Seeing. I do not understand what you referred to as > physical > seeing. You said that it's citta that cognizes the object, that is my > understanding as well. Rupa, material, cannot cognize anything. Seeing > conscious needs a lot of conditions to arise, and only stay extremely > briefly > and then falls away the same as conditions. > > Again, let me repeat myself that, …< understanding > of realities when there is mindfulness (sati) of them. This is my idea, > no > matter how much we read or discuss, if there is no direct understanding > at > the moment of mindfulness, it is all pretty much panatti (conventional) > level. As I understand the goal of study is not to know the theory or > term > but the reality.>> I think this is very important. > > Now get back to your question Vedana and citta. May I refer to Nina's > chapter > 2, Vedana, http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas4.html Her writing > can > explain your question pretty clearly. My understanding is citta is a > leader > of the band in cognizing object but citta and cetasika (nama-dhamma: > reality > which is able to know) are mutually supportive (as characters of > cetasika in > Abhidhammattha Sangaha). There is no citta without cetasika and vice > versa. > > This is my guess to your question. Because the nature of this two > phenomena > is so well blended, and the ability of citta that can know different > kinds of > object including material (rupa), citta, cetasika, nibbana as well as > concept/signification/name (pannatti). So cetasika as well as citta can > also > be an object (arammana) for the later citta to cognize. If Nina have > time, > I am sure that she can explain this better than me. So previous vedana > can > be an object for later citta as well. > > I'd better stop here. This is not easy for me either. I enjoy your good > questions. Addendum comment from anyone are appreciated. > > > Num > > > PS. Let me cut from Summary of Paramatthadhamma by Aj.Sujin regarding > the > importance of vedana. > > << In the Anguttaranikaya Ekanipata Dutiyapannasaka Sanimitta the third > vagga, 328, there is a passage saying: Behold, Bhikkhu, dhamma that is > sinful > akusala arises because there is vedana. Without vedana, it does not > arise. > By abandoning the vedana the dhamma that is sinful akusala would no > longer > be. > (Other passages are about sanna-cetasika, which is the sanna-khandha, > other > cetasika that are sankhara-khandha and the citta which are > vinnana-khandha.) > This shows that the vedana-cetasika, which are feelings, are the basis > of > tenacious attachments. Since there is no knowledge of the truth about > vedana-cetasika, one cannot abandon the feeling that there is oneself. > The knowledge of the characteristics of vedana-cetasika would condition > and > support sati to arise and know the characteristics of vedana. Otherwise > one > would not realize that every day there is vedana in the same way that > each > day there are only realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind, only because citta arise to know these > realities. > But imagine if one does not feel anything, when one sees the world > there > would be no perturbation. If one does not feel any emotion after > hearing, > one would not feel disturbed either. And the same applies to smelling, > tasting, knowing bodysense contact, there would be no akusala of any > kind. > But because feelings arise, there is attachment and clinging to the > feelings > and desiring the objects that make us feel glad and happy, which cause > akusala-dhamma to arise frequently without our awareness. All dhamma > are > anatta and none can prevent vedana-cetasika from arising. Whenever > citta > arises there must be vedana-cetasika that feels the arammana of the > moment. > Even now there must be vedana-cetasika of one kind or another being > upekkha-vedana, sukha-vedana, dukkha-vedana, somanassa-vedana or > domanassa-vedana. The aim of studying dhamma is not merely to know the > number or names but the characteristics of the feelings one is having. > If > sati does not arise to be conscious of the feelings that we are having > now, > even though that feeling is real: it has arisen and fallen away, since > we do > not know the true characteristics of that feeling, we would take it for > the > selves, which are happy, unhappy, glad, sad or indifferent. >> > 9313 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:32am Subject: Somewhat O/T: New York (was: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 11/14/01 4:18:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > Are you in New York, Howard? Glad to see we're well represented there. > > ========================= > Yep. I live on Long Island, and I teach at Queens College. > > With metta, > Howard Yer kiddin' me. Whaddaya teach? I grew up in Canarsie, Brooklyn, and South Jamaica, Queens. High School in Great Neck, then Massachussetts and settled back in Manhattan for about twenty years, before my wife's work exiled me to Washington, D.C. a few years ago. We visit New York when we can. Perhaps we'll say hello to you next time we're in town! My parents still have an apartment in Chelsea, and they saw the Trade Towers get hit and collapse out of their window, even took home photos. We always used to go on about their great view. [All things are impermanent]. They see the Empire State building out of their other window. My mother still needs psychotherapy after seeing the collapse, and my dad had flashbacks of the buildings blowing up in Germany in World War II. Sarah???? Want some new patients??? Anyway, I know this is all off-topic, so I will desist engaging the coincidences of our khandas and go back to serious talk of anatta. But I can't resist saying [sorry everyone] in line with our New Yawk tawk: "Anatta day, anatta dollar". I am truly sorry about that! Best Regards, Robert Ep. =========================== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 9314 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentaries Dear Christine, I really enjoyed your description of the characters in the Suttas/Commentaries. Any further details you'd like to provide will be of great interest. Best, Robert Ep. ============ --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Robert K., > > I am so glad you recommended The Discourse on the Fruits of > Recluseship, among others. Being at the mercy of the book dealers, > it just happened to be the one they had in stock of a number I > ordered - I am told that there is now a wait of about four months > until the others arrive..... I am looking forward to the 'All > Embracing Net of Views: The Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries', > as its' main aim apparently is to clear away the conceptual and > intellectual distortions that hinder the acquisition of right view - > and I have lots of those distortions. > > I'm only up to page 29 (the end of The More Excellent Fruits of > Recluseship) and I have no questions so far that Bhikkhu Bodhi hasn't > covered in his translation of the commentary, only the same aversion > I always feel when 'faith' is mentioned....left over from my > Christian (blind belief) days I suppose.....On p.29 42-43 the first > step along the path, is described as the gaining of faith in the > Tathagata. "A householder, or a householders son, or one born into > some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he > gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith.....(leads to > going forth into homelessness). > > I enjoy Bhikku Bodhi's writing style, but one extra bonus is the > description of people's backgrounds and the culture of that time. The > people and their relatives mentioned in the sutta are much more real. > Their personalities are fleshed out. > For instance, to know that King Ajatasattu of Magadha (who asks the > question on whether there were any fruits of recluseship visible here > and now) was a parricide (killed his father King Bimbisara) from a > line of parricides with a number of descendents who would commit the > same crime, explains his sudden panic attack and suspicion when > approaching the Mango Farm to speak with the Buddha. How poignant is > his love for his son, who would eventually kill him also. > While Ajatasattu's mother was pregnant with him 2500 years ago, she > experienced an exotic variety of what many pregnant women go through > today - cravings. It is uncommon, but not unknown, for women I see > in the Maternity Unit to experience 'pica'. One I knew began eating > dirt and clay - the midwives told me it was possibly a sign of > calcium and magnesium deficiency. When I mentioned Ajatasattus's > mother (though not by name!), they thought it was within the bounds > of possibility that she may have had some nutritional (?iron ) > deficiency.....the Queen had a craving to drink the kings' blood - > which he lovingly provided for her to mix with water. The > Astrologers on hearing this, and knowing the family history, not > unreasonably predicted "This child in her womb will be the king's > enemy. He will kill the king". The Queen was beside herself and > tried to procure an abortion, but was prevented, and also stopped > from killing him after the birth. (?post-natal depression or > psychosis). One wonders how often Ajattasatu heard the story about > the prediction that he would kill his father King Bimbisara - self > fulfilling prophecy? family tradition? ..... Anyway, I won't ramble > on, but the people in the sutta don't seem like cardboard story book > characters anymore. Apart from differences in culture and lifestyle, > I see them on the T.V. news every night. It's like dressing the > actors in a 'period piece' in modern day clothes. > > keeping on, > metta, > Christine 9315 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentaries You know what's scary, Rob. I'm at the point of awareness where I can see that certain things I do are going to lead to future unpleasant results. Some of these things I'm sure I don't see, but some things are obvious, and I even sometimes experience the direct result of my impatience, anger, fearful actions, etc. When you see yourself doing something, but you can't actually stop, you find yourself watching these things, knowing they will have a negative result and you can almost brace yourself for what will eventually come. I believe that the discernment of these things begins to have a gradual 'braking' effect. I can feel that when some of these things take place, the awareness kicks in, and the action 'starts to stop'. It slows down and holds back a little. I assume that eventually some of the negative actions/reactions will fall away. I can't really 'do' anything, but it's interesting to watch. Best, Robert Ep. ========== --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- > Very glad the book is upholding the promise I made, Christine. > I think the surrounding stories give us hints of the deeper reasons > for our habits and foibles. > Cultures have all sorts of reasons for behaviour and result and our > current 'scientific' worldview propounds many reasons why this and > that happens. What it can't see is the long history of accumulations > and past kamma that is always influencing our paths. This the > Buddhist scriptures reveal by the stories they explain. > I find this is something I begin to sense personally in a way that is > hard to prove but that feels very comforting. > best wishes > robert > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Robert K., > > > > I am so glad you recommended The Discourse on the Fruits of > > Recluseship, among others. Being at the mercy of the book dealers, > > it just happened to be the one they had in stock of a number I > > ordered - I am told that there is now a wait of about four months > > until the others arrive..... I am looking forward to the 'All > > Embracing Net of Views: The Brahmajala Sutta and its Commentaries', > > as its' main aim apparently is to clear away the conceptual and > > intellectual distortions that hinder the acquisition of right view - > > > and I have lots of those distortions. > > > > I'm only up to page 29 (the end of The More Excellent Fruits of > > Recluseship) and I have no questions so far that Bhikkhu Bodhi > hasn't > > covered in his translation of the commentary, only the same > aversion > > I always feel when 'faith' is mentioned....left over from my > > Christian (blind belief) days I suppose.....On p.29 42-43 the first > > step along the path, is described as the gaining of faith in the > > Tathagata. "A householder, or a householders son, or one born into > > some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he > > gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith.....(leads to > > going forth into homelessness). > > > > I enjoy Bhikku Bodhi's writing style, but one extra bonus is the > > description of people's backgrounds and the culture of that time. > The > > people and their relatives mentioned in the sutta are much more > real. > > Their personalities are fleshed out. > > For instance, to know that King Ajatasattu of Magadha (who asks > the > > question on whether there were any fruits of recluseship visible > here > > and now) was a parricide (killed his father King Bimbisara) from a > > line of parricides with a number of descendents who would commit > the > > same crime, explains his sudden panic attack and suspicion when > > approaching the Mango Farm to speak with the Buddha. How poignant > is > > his love for his son, who would eventually kill him also. > > While Ajatasattu's mother was pregnant with him 2500 years ago, she > > experienced an exotic variety of what many pregnant women go > through > > today - cravings. It is uncommon, but not unknown, for women I see > > in the Maternity Unit to experience 'pica'. One I knew began > eating > > dirt and clay - the midwives told me it was possibly a sign of > > calcium and magnesium deficiency. When I mentioned Ajatasattus's > > mother (though not by name!), they thought it was within the bounds > > of possibility that she may have had some nutritional (?iron ) > > deficiency.....the Queen had a craving to drink the kings' blood - > > which he lovingly provided for her to mix with water. The > > Astrologers on hearing this, and knowing the family history, not > > unreasonably predicted "This child in her womb will be the king's > > enemy. He will kill the king". The Queen was beside herself and > > tried to procure an abortion, but was prevented, and also stopped > > from killing him after the birth. (?post-natal depression or > > psychosis). One wonders how often Ajattasatu heard the story > about > > the prediction that he would kill his father King Bimbisara - self > > fulfilling prophecy? family tradition? ..... Anyway, I won't > ramble > > on, but the people in the sutta don't seem like cardboard story > book > > characters anymore. Apart from differences in culture and > lifestyle, > > I see them on the T.V. news every night. It's like dressing the > > actors in a 'period piece' in modern day clothes. > > > > keeping on, > > metta, > > Christine 9316 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 10:02am Subject: Co to Kitagirisutta Dear Jon, Robert K and friends, Recently the Kitagirisutta was quoted, and since I like this sutta I consulted the Co, which I have in Thai. I am using the PTS translation. The translation used yesterday was another one, namely, 23. "And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma he memorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the [mental] body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom." N:We read: he scrutinizes: my P T S text has: he weighs it up. The Pali tuleti means weighing or examining. The Co has: he considers thoroughly :sees impermanence, dukkha, anatta. Having weight it up he strives. The Co: he investigates through vipassana, and by this way of investigation he strives after the Path, magga. The Co. then explains that he realizes the truth of nibbana by the mental body, nama-kaya. He thoroughly penetrates it. He sees it by magga panna which is accompanied by (sampayutta) the nama kaya (the other nama dhammas). Just a few notes, and my translation is coarse. Nina. 9317 From: Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:05pm Subject: Re: Somewhat O/T: New York (was: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard) Hi, Robert - I will reply to this via the group, but I suppose that if we continue this discussion further, it should be off-list. In a message dated 11/14/01 11:34:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > Yep. I live on Long Island, and I teach at Queens College. > With metta,> > > Howard > Yer kiddin' me. Whaddaya teach? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm a prof in the computer science dept teaching courses in the theory of computation and computational complexity. (I'm a theory person, because all my training is in mathematics.) ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I grew up in Canarsie, Brooklyn, and South Jamaica, Queens. High School in > Great > Neck, then Massachussetts and settled back in Manhattan for about twenty > years, > before my wife's work exiled me to Washington, D.C. a few years ago. > We visit > New York when we can. Perhaps we'll say hello to you next time we're in > town! > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That would be great. Please e-mail me if you ever plan to come in. ------------------------------------------------------- > > My parents still have an apartment in Chelsea, and they saw the Trade > Towers get > hit and collapse out of their window, even took home photos. We always > used to go > on about their great view. [All things are impermanent]. They see the > Empire > State building out of their other window. My mother still needs > psychotherapy > after seeing the collapse, and my dad had flashbacks of the buildings > blowing up > in Germany in World War II. Sarah???? Want some new patients??? > > Anyway, I know this is all off-topic, so I will desist engaging the > coincidences > of our khandas and go back to serious talk of anatta. But I can't > resist > saying [sorry everyone] in line with our New Yawk tawk: "Anatta day, > anatta > dollar". > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yo! If ya got anicca, ya gotta scratch it!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > I am truly sorry about that! > > Best Regards, > Robert Ep. > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9318 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meththa meditation Dear Ranil, --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > If a person start to do mettha meditaion I thought > you can get the feeling > of meththa... well may be you can go a little far, > say from yourself, your > parents...etc. (But also I think even to arise the > feeling of mettha towards > yourself is difficult). Not sure what you mean by the feeling of mettaa. If by feeling you refer to the cetasika vedanaa, then I think you mean sukha-vedana--pleasant feeling. Unfortunately this feeling is a highly unreliable indication of kusala--far more akusala than kusala arises with pleasant feelings. So it's good I think to hear as much Dhamma as possible in order to be able to distinguish between kusala and akusala. Does pleasant feeling arise with a sense of attachment? If so, can this be kusala? > Mike; I get your point. the feeling of meththa too > is impermanent. But dont > you think without it there would be something > missing in the path? Leaving aside for the moment what we mean when we talk about the path, is mettaa a path factor? On the other hand, a moment of satipatthaana includes all the (mundane) path factors. This being the case, which is more worthwhile--a moment of mettaa, or a moment of satipatthaana? > The key word > is 'suppress'--once the samadhi is gone, the > underlying tendency for the arising of the kilesas > is > still in place, > > >>>>>if not strengthened>>>>>>> > > I dont get you here. Is kilesas strengthened here > due to a kind of a > strengthened mind due to various kinds of > concentration? If concentration is developed to the point of samadhi, it can be kusala or akusala. Since there are hugely more moments of akusala than kusala (moments conditioned by aversion, desire and/or ignorance), there is a much greater chance that samadhi will strengthen akusala rather than kusala, unless accompanied by strong understanding--conditioned by hearing and reflecting on the Dhamma. > Mettaa-bhavana > and all the other kinds of kusala are fine (if > they're > real--difficult to know)-- > >>>>>except that they all just lead to more > samsara.>>>>> > Mike; but isnt it easy for a person to cultivate > understanding (I hope by > doing vipassana meditaion) if he has already > practissed some kind of > meditation? I don't think so--there were many cases in the Buddha's day of people hearing the Dhamma for the first time and experiencing profound vipassanaa, even to the point of magga-citta--without ever having practiced samadhi meditation. Others can answer this question much better than I can, though. > Also, I cant understand how kusala will > lead to more samsara. All kamma conditions vipakka--kusala kamma conditions kusala vipakka, which still contributes to more and more samsaara. This is why satipatthaana is unique among kusala--only it can (usually very gradually) eradicate the kilesas. > I am so grateful to you for your comments and thank > you for your teachings. Good heavens, Ranil, I'm NO teacher! Just expressing a few of my own half-baked opinions. Always a pleasure to hear from you, sir... mike 9319 From: Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:40am Subject: Re: Music Dear Nina, Thank you for your post. I don't quite know what to do with knowing that something I write is a condition for conceit elsewhere, I'll just do what comes with the least effort :-). For me music is quite different to talking. Talking , whether in the mind or with the tongue, is the means of endless papanca. There is idle chit-chat, idle thought, gossip, lies, expressions of ignorance, ill-will, lust, all these are vaci-kamma and vaci-sankhara. When I listen to a Bach fugue, I do not intend for the hair to rise on the back of my neck, nor can I prevent the flood of well being that fills awareness. And there is this awareness of the perfection of the musical architecture. And so it is with the Dhamma . There is no papanca, no conceit, no I (the biggest conceit). In some Christian sects there is the phenomenon of speaking in tongues. It is making unintelligible sounds, and it switches of that talking mind. And so it is with music, for me. After high school I was apprenticed to a pipe organ builder, working both in Australia and the Netherlands. I did learn to play the organ then, was church organist for some time, as well as teaching a number of pupils. I gave the odd recital, and sometimes my first wife would join in on the flute. With ever changing realities, I ended up tuning pianos for a number of years. I haven't played for a long time, now I just listen, intently (and most of it is Bach. I have over 200 CD's of just JS Bach, and then some more. I consider it my sutta library) Some of my boys are very musical. This may sound like pride, but I understand full well that they are what they are, not much to do with me. The younger one of mine got his first guitar less than two years ago. The band he is in with my older son and some friends just won the NSW Battle of the Bands. It is all conditions, and wise attention. My wife's oldest boy recently received a ranking of 95% in his final exams. His middle brother is a farm hand who loves being with the animals all day. The youngest one watches the Simpsons all day and all night. Everyone is different, and each must find their own way. We differ on a number of issues, Nina, including (I quote from NanaVira) Cittavíthi, 'mental process, cognitive series'. Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV etc. It is, perhaps, not superfluous to remark that this doctrine, of which so much use is made in the Visuddhimagga (and see also the Abhidhammatthasangaha), is a pure scholastic invention and has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's Teaching (or, indeed, with anything else). (I unquote) That we differ in this is not important. I imagine you, Lodewijk and Oscar and the rich harmonics of a well tempered harpsichord, and I imagine it to be "just so". All the best Herman Brady --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina et al, > >> > >> I just read in Sarah's reply to Christine that Nina plays music, and > >> I am so happy!!!!!!!! > > Sarah: about Khun Sujin: She's always stressed to me that the study and > practice should be very natural > > without any rules at all. Again it is the understanding rather than the > > 'appearance' or 'activities' that counts. > > H: I never understood the precept against music, and I was never going > >> to follow it , because as far as I am concerned music and ecstasy are > >> one. When there is music there is no I, just music, and this is the > >> meaning of ecstasy (to stand outside of ). > >> Whether you are playing J.S. Bach or are listening to Bach being > >> played, this is paying wise attention to non-verbal abhidhamma. > > Sarah: For sure there are realities while listening > > to or playing Bach and no reason at all why there can't be wise attention and > > awareness at these times. > > Dear Hermann, Christine, Sarah and friends, > > That is an expressive Email, I had to laugh. > I had conceit when I read that you pay attention to my music, there it is > again: I and you. Conceit plays us many tricks. Playing music is the same as > talking, thus, many different kinds of cittas arise and fall away very fast > and these condition different rupas. Yes, Abidhamma is life, normal, natural > life, even liking music is Abhidhamma. Liking the music, delight, you call > it extasy, this is attachment. We do not have to force ourselves to refrain > from it, it is normal, natural. But it is good to know it. The monk's > lifestyle is different, he should live like the arahat who is without > defilements. Therefore, he should not indulge in sense pleasures, such as > music. > What do you play, and do you teach? > First a little more about our music. Lodewijk and I got to know each other > through the music, 56 years ago, that must be before you were born? We play > music for two pianos, and also recorder and harpsichord. We also play with > my nephews, who play cello and also recorder. On Sunday my hundred year old > father comes to dinner (a four course dinner) with his very intelligent > asylum dog, Oscar (Christine likes this!) and on his request we have to play > something. Oscar especially likes Bach or very quiet music and lays down > between us. If it is less to his liking he walks up and down. Dogs know so > much, Christine. > Liking music does not fall from the blue sky, it ihas been accumulated from > citta to citta, also from the past. Your five boys are all different, with > different likings and talents and this is conditioned, accumulated. It is > interesting to observe their different accumulations. > Cittas arise and fall away very fast and akusala cittas can arise shortly > after kusala cittas. When I am just enjoying music for myself, or when I > play for my father and Oscar in order to give them a good time, is there a > difference? You can prove such things to yourself. Some time ago you said > that you find it difficult to know the difference between kusala and > akusala, and that you like to prove everything yourself. That is right. > However, learning some details about kusala and akusala from the teachings > helps us to consider what is arising in our own life. When we think of our > own enjoyment there is some selfishness, even though we do not harm others, > it is attachment, and when we think of someone else, of his wellbeing, there > is generosity and kindness. We had to play at a funeral ceremony, for my > sister in law who recently died. This is a way of showing sympathy to the > members of the family. But of course, there is also conceit and attachment. > Again, music is just like talking, so many different cittas, and there are > many moments of attachment to the sound. Also when we are talking in > ordinary speech, there is attachment to my voice, or to the words we are > expressing, there is hearing and sound, but mostly we are forgetful of > realities. Did we consider hearing while we are talking ourselves, or are we > just absorbed in what we are saying? We have accumulated forgetfulness and > ignorance for aeons, how can that change immediately? > Thus, when there is no dana, generosity, sila, observance of morality or > mental development, we talk or play music, we act and think with akusala > cittas. You may like to read "Deeds of Merit" by A. Sujin, Amara recently > put on her Web, which is also on the Zolag web. Read it and check it for > yourself, with regard to your own life. > When you consider your own life, and you try to understand it more, it is > kusala. There is sati, but it is of the level of considering, not yet direct > awareness of characteristics appearing through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > body and mind. We should not mind whether direct awareness arises or not > yet, if we mind, it shows clinging to self. This works counteractive. > It is not too difficult to know what is kusala and akusala in theory, but > since many different cittas arise and fall away so quickly and we have so > much ignorance and clinging, it is not easy to know exactly when the citta > is kusala and when akusala. Through satipatthana realities can be known as > they are, but it will take a long time of development, maybe eaons. Never > mind, each little bit of understanding is a gain. > An example of how we can be tricked: we see the usefulness of generosity, > and indeed there can be moments of generosity, but then there can be other > cittas which are attached to the idea of: I am generous, self again. But > panna should know everything, all that arises in daily life. We hear music, > we have to hear, we cannot choose, no self who can select this. Everything > occurs already because there are the approriate conditions. I did not make > my own earsense, it is being produced by kamma again and again. > As Sarah explained, there are realities when playing music, hearing, seeing, > knowing the meaning of the notes you read, hardness, like and dislike. > Sometimes there can be awareness of a characteristic, but this cannot be > forced. Awareness arises when there are conditions for it. > Now Lodewijk is playing the piano. With best wishes, also to your family, > Nina. 9320 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:32am Subject: Re: Commentaries Dear All, Slowly going through the Moral Discipline sections - Samannaphala Sutta 'The Small Section on Moral Discipline' p.31 of The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship - Bhikkhu Bodhi verse 45 'He abstains from accepting uncooked grain, raw meat,women and girls, male and female slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and swine, elephants, cattle, horses and mares.' Hmmmm....a little uncomfortable at coming behind the uncooked grain and raw meat - but at least women were listed ahead of the fowl and swine. :-) Is the Buddha's attitude to pursuing human rights (engaged buddhism?) recorded? Or are the varied situations in life that people find themselves in secondary to learning the way out of Samsara? verse 62 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as: promising gifts to deities in return for favours; fulfilling such promises; demonology; reciting spells after entering an earthen house; inducing virility and impotence; preparing and consecrating sites for a house; giving ceremonial mouthwashes and ceremonial bathing; offering sacrificial fires;' I'm O.K. up to here, - but the next sentences seem to include the practice of Medicine and Surgery in 'wrong means of livelihood'....Is there any other explanation? 'administering emetics, purgatives, expectorants and phlegmagogues; administering ear-medicine, eye-medicine nose-medicine, collyrium, and counter-ointments; 'curing cataracts, practising surgery, practising as a children's doctor; administering medicines to cure bodily diseases and balms to counter their after-effects - he abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased arts. This too pertains to his moral discipline.' The Commentary merely says: 45-62 The Sections on Moral Discipline "For explanations of the training rules observed by the bhikkhu, the commentator refers to the exegesis of the sections on moral discipline included in the commentary to the Brahmajala Sutta. Some of these remarks have been incorporated into the English renderings themselves. For further amplification, see The All-Embracing Net of Views, pp. 118-25)" Which isn't helpful when one doesn't own a copy.... Does anyone? Perhaps there is another interpretation, as many esteemed Bhikkus are medically trained and practice....... Metta, Christine 9321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:01am Subject: Cambodia, Ch 9, (1) Lectures in Cambodia, by A.Sujin. Ch 9, no. 1. Chapter 9 Dhamma Discussion in Hotel Sofitel, Phnom Penh (I) Sujin: When paññå of the degree of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa arises, it arises even against our expectations. We should not think ahead of time that it should arise in a moment, very soon. This is wrong, because the development of pañña must be with detachment. If desire slips in, we are not on the right way and we shall not reach the goal. The right way, the development of paññå, is very intricate, very subtle. As has been appropriately stated in the scriptures: it is difficult to understand the four noble Truths because they are profound. For the development of satipaììhåna, we should not sit and think of getting hold of sati in order to ³use² it. We cannot ³use² pañña, but there should be correct understanding from the beginning, from now on. This understanding is included in the khandha of formations, saòkhårakkhandha, which forms up conditions for the arising of sammåsati that is aware of realities. When one touches things which are hard during the day there is no sati, because one has the notion of touching things such as a table. But when we have listened to the Dhamma we understand that hardness is only a kind of reality. If we often listen and have more understanding, there can be firm saññå, we can remember that everything is dhamma, reality, and this is the first level of understanding. We should not forget that everything is dhamma. If we do not forget this, there are conditions for the arising of sati that is aware of the reality of hardness, odour or other dhammas. It depends on conditions whether sati arises and is aware of realities. When sati arises it can be aware precisely of a characteristic of the dhamma that we used to take for something hard. When there is awareness, paññå can know that this is only a kind of dhamma, and that the element that experiences hardness is not self. However, before we can know that it is an element that experiences, not self, we should develop paññå for a long time until there is no longer the concept of the whole world that we used to have. Then only the element that experiences remains, and this is the characteristic of nåma that is not blended or mixed with rúpa. Nåma dhamma is the reality that can know everything. From birth to death there is nåma dhamma, at every moment. When sati arises we can gradually begin to understand the characteristics of rúpa dhamma and nåma dhamma which we used to know from listening to the Dhamma and from the study of the different texts of the scriptures. When we are aware of the realities that are appearing we shall begin to understand the characteristic of rúpa and the characteristic of nåma. Sati is aware, not because we cause its arising or do something special to induce it. We should understand that each life is citta, cetasika and rúpa. When sati is aware and there is gradually more understanding, little by little, satipaììhåna develops, so that one day insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa, can arise. This kind of paññå can penetrate the true nature of the characteristics of nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma, without there being concepts of people and things blended in. The element that experiences appears through the mind-door. At the moments of insight knowledge nothing else exists but the element that experiences, nåma dhamma, and rúpa dhamma, and these appear one at a time. Insight knowledge is the paññå that realizes the difference between nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma, it realizes their characteristics as distinct from each other, as they appear one at a time through the mind-door. We have heard of sense-door process and mind-door process, and also now a mind-door process is in between the sense-door processes, it follows upon each sense-door process. However, the mind-door process is not evident because it is, as it were, hidden by the sense-door processes. Also when there is thinking of names and concepts on account of sense objects, the mind-door process is not apparent. At such moments the arising and falling away of realities is not evident. Realities have already arisen and disappeared anyway. When concepts hide the truth one does not know paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. However, when pañña has been developed to the degree of insight knowledge, the mind-door process appears and then there is no more doubt about it. At this moment realities appear through the sense-doors, through the eyes or the ears, but while one is thinking, nothing appears through the eyes or the ears. While one is thinking, there is no colour, no sound. We know through the study of the Dhamma and by memorizing what we learnt that there is the mind-door process, but the reality of the mind-door process does not appear. However, the paññå that is insight knowledge knows all realities through the mind-door. Realities appear one at a time through the mind-door. How does one feel about that? Jarurin: Perhaps one is frightened. Sujin: It depends on conditions. It is an experience that never before arose in life, but pañña at that moment is able to know that characteristic as nåma, and that is vipassanå ñåùa. One may be frightened or astonished while thinking why realities appear in this way, because one never thought that the world one is familiar with does, in the ultimate sense, not exist. Usually the whole wide world appears, because one has eyes and ears and thus this world one is familiar with appears. It appears in this way until the time comes when the world appears as empty; then there is only the citta which knows the characteristics of dhammas that appear, and which knows that the realities arise and appear because there are the appropriate conditions. Paññå will clearly realize that rúpa appears through the sense-door and subsequently through the mind-door. This is according to the truth. The saying: ³There is nothing, then there is something and after that there is nothing to be found², is according to the truth. Paññå knows that everything the Buddha taught is the truth that appears and that can be known, from the first level of paññå on, which is knowing the characteristics of nåma and of rúpa. People should not forego any stage of paññå and try to do something else. They should develop paññå so that they know first of all the characteristics of realities that are nåma and rúpa. We cannot know yet as it is lobha-múla-citta, and we cannot know yet whether it is accompanied by wrong view or not. When we study and we have theoretical knowledge of realities, the characteristics of nåma and rúpa do not appear, because we only know the terms. We may say that this type of lobha is accompanied by wrong view and that type by conceit, but this does not mean that we know the realities that arise and appear and then fall away. Realities arise and then fall away, they disappear very rapidly, but we only know the names of dhammas. If one wants to understand the true nature of realities, it is not sufficient to know only terms and concepts of the different dhammas. The purpose of listening to the Dhamma should not merely be theoretical understanding of realities, but it should be the practice, that is the development of paññå according to the method of the Suttanta, of the Abhidhamma and of the Vinaya, the Book of Discipline for the monks. 9322 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Dear Mike & Ranil, I've been appreciating your discussion on metta here..very interesting questions from Ranil and excellent responses from Mike. Like you say, Ranil, we all learn a lot from his 'teaching';-) I'd just like to add a comment on one aspect which you quoted from your friend initially: --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Most importantly, mettha towards your own self. ......... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I understand the nature of metta, it can never be directed towards one's 'own self'. All the brahma viharas must be directed to others, such as now when we're considering and showing friendliness or assistance to each other. There has also been some earlier useful discussion on metta (which you can find on escribe or under 'useful posts'). This is an extract from a post I wrote to Erik who also had (has?) the same idea, like your friend that metta can be directed to oneself: ==================== Sarah:>.................in the Vism. above, it explains that by using > oneself as an example, ''I am happy. Just as I want to be happy and dread pain, > as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too'. Later (1X, 92) it > explains that metta 'comes about with respect to a friend (mitta), or it is > behaviour towards a friend, thus it is lovingkindness (metta). When there is > suffering in OTHERS (my caps) it causes (karoti) good people's hearts to be > moved (kampana), thus it is compassion (karuna).......' > > I know this causes confusion, but all the 4 brahmaviharas should be understood > as directed to other beings. As I mentioned, there can be other kinds of adosa > (non-aversion) which are not to other beings and it's common for metta and > adosa to be mixed up, but i find it helpful to consider these details and > realities a little more precisely, even though it's not the label that is our > concern! > Erik: > > To put it question form: can the designation "other" arise without > > the implicit designation "self"? In other words, is there really any > > fundamental separation between the khandas we designate "me" and the > > khandas we designate "other"? Does this "me" exist in total > > separation from all other things, in a causal vacuum, as it were? > Sarah:> There can be metta with or without right understanding of realities. Those who > have reached stages of enlightenment have no wrong view of self and yet are > more likely to have metta. When there is awareness of realities, there can > still be thinking of beings. Thinking can be with metta or dosa still. > Actually, if there is no idea of it being 'my metta' it will be purer and more > likely to arise I think. ==================== Ranil, please continue with your suggestions and observations and Mike, please don't ever underestimate the value of your helpful comments here;-) Best wishes, Sarah 9323 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] hello all! Dear Kelvin, Good to hear from you after your long break;-) --- kelvin liew peng chuan wrote: > > Dear All, > > May you all be well, happy & peaceful! i was requested by an e-friend to > give a short write up to introduce Buddhism in a Christian website. can you > all help me? I don't think I can help very much, but I remember ago in London, I was asked to give some talks to a Christian group and my approach was to start by stressing areas of similarity with regard to sila, the precepts and the foundations of the Commandments.....i.e qualities such as friendliness, neighbourliness, honesty and so on. Later I talked about what makes Buddhism distinct from other religions and in particular anatta, no being, no God and so on. Just a few ides. Others may help more. > > sorry for being silent all this while, i see the pace of discussion's very > fast & deep! it's enlightening to read the discussions, though.i hope > someone can help me. Glad you're finding the discussions so 'enlightening', Kelvin...perhaps you can help us too;-) > thanks in advance, saddhu ! saddhu! saddhu! One other suggestion would be to read the first chapter of Nina's book 'Buddhism in Daily Life' in which she talks about why she, as a Catholic at that time, became interested in Buddhism: http://www.dhammastudy.com/outlook.html If you wish to share parts of your article here as you write it, others may give you some useful feedback. Sarah 9324 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentaries Dear Christine, i'm enjoying your modern commentary on the commentaries too...pls keep it up ..very amusing and interesting to hear the points that are of special interest. Just a couple of very brief comments (one here and one on your next post): wrote: > I'm only up to page 29 (the end of The More Excellent Fruits of > Recluseship) and I have no questions so far that Bhikkhu Bodhi hasn't > covered in his translation of the commentary, only the same aversion > I always feel when 'faith' is mentioned....left over from my > Christian (blind belief) days I suppose.....On p.29 42-43 the first > step along the path, is described as the gaining of faith in the > Tathagata. "A householder, or a householders son, or one born into > some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he > gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith.....(leads to > going forth into homelessness). I know what you mean, and I'm not keen on 'faith' either...one reason Buddhism has such appeal is that it doesn't rely on any blind faith. I'm sure that here it will be 'saddha' or similar in the pali that is used and perhaps we can think of it more as 'confidence'. This is the confidence that only grows AFTER having heard (as above), considered and begun to develop understanding of the Teachings. Sarah 9325 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentaries (2) Dear Christine, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > I'm O.K. up to here, - but the next sentences seem to include the > practice of Medicine and Surgery in 'wrong means of livelihood'....Is > there any other explanation? > > 'administering emetics, purgatives, expectorants and phlegmagogues; > administering ear-medicine, eye-medicine nose-medicine, collyrium, > and counter-ointments; 'curing cataracts, practising surgery, > practising as a children's doctor; administering medicines to cure > bodily diseases and balms to counter their after-effects - he > abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased > arts. This too pertains to his moral discipline.' > > The Commentary merely says: > 45-62 The Sections on Moral Discipline > "For explanations of the training rules observed by the bhikkhu, the > commentator refers to the exegesis of the sections on moral > discipline included in the commentary to the Brahmajala Sutta. Some > of these remarks have been incorporated into the English renderings > themselves. For further amplification, see The All-Embracing Net of > Views, pp. 118-25)" > Which isn't helpful when one doesn't own a copy.... Does anyone? > Perhaps there is another interpretation, as many esteemed Bhikkus are > medically trained and practice....... I'm a little pressed for time, so i'll see if there's anything special to add from the texts later (or let someone else;-). Just a quick comment, though: as I understand it, the practice of Medicine and Surgery is wrong livelihood for a bhikkhu and this would come under the rules and precepts that the bhikkhu follows. In the same way, teaching subjects other than the dhamma, practising law or anything else not directly related to teaching, studying, practising dhamma would not be included. This doesn't mean a bhikkhu could not help someone in need, such as applying a bandage to a bleeding wound if someone collapsed in front of him. I also understand there are very good reasons for all these rules which are given in the stories behind the laying down of each one. They are all aimed at the preservation of the Sangha in order to preserve the Teachings. Again, I don't have time now to check the Vinaya on these points, but Tadao or Mike or any other vinaya aspect should be able to help with more details and correct me if I've made any mistake. With regard to your question on human rights, I think your observation is correct that the aim of the Teachings is to help us learn 'the way out of Samsara'. Ultimately, the real problems in life are not how many conventional 'rights' we have or don't have, but the latent tendencies of greed, hate and ignorance, wouldn't you say? Sarah 9326 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 11:33pm Subject: discernment or realities- yoga/tai chi --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Are there any types of classes you don't take, Sarah?? Actually, mostly I just do my yoga or Tai Chi on my own;-) we > have a > lot in common. I studied Yang Style T'ai Chi, long form for a couple of > years, > then short form ..... I'm quite a newbie at Tai chi (same forms), but like you, have been doing Iyengar yoga for well over 20yrs. > I don't know if it's right for the list, > but > if you want to have a thread on how discernment of realities relates to yoga > and > t'ai chi practices, that might be fun. Or maybe you don't see them as > related. I > would certainly be interested. You'll see I've changed the heading. I gave Howard my brief comments. Perhaps because I became so interested in Dhamma at a fairly young age, this has always given me my 'perspective' or understanding of realities. I've never felt any conflict, but I think the reason I've followed Iyengar yoga for so long is because of the emphasis on the physical activity and action and detail of the asanas rather than the Hindu philosophy which has never made sense to me. We have quite a few good us teachers passing through here. Recently Ramanand Patel came. I went to all the classes I could except the 'philosophy session' ;-) Maybe one reason, I've stuck at it for so long is because i don't have any expectations of the yoga or the teachers as anything in the slightest 'enlightening' and hence, unlike others, I'm never disappointed about it in this regard. Does that make any sense? Num likes to play tennis and Herman and Nina like to play music....just different accumulations and interests, but ultimately still just visible objects, sounds, attachments and thinking about concepts. I'm sure you and Howard will have different ideas and are bound to 'gang up';-) hope I haven't been too blunt... (I don't put it so bluntly to my yoga friends..) I'm trying to sign off for the busy weekend, Sarah 9327 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co to Kitagirisutta Nina Many thanks for your interesting and useful explanations from the commentary. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Robert K and friends, > Recently the Kitagirisutta was quoted, and since I like this sutta I > consulted the Co, which I have in Thai. I am using the PTS translation. > The > translation used yesterday was another one, namely, > 23. "And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual > practice, > gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; > when > he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, > he > gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; having heard the > Dhamma > he memorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has > memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective > acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective > acceptance > of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, > he > applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having > scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the > [mental] body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with > wisdom." > > N:We read: he scrutinizes: my P T S text has: he weighs it up. The Pali > tuleti means weighing or examining. The Co has: he considers thoroughly > :sees impermanence, dukkha, anatta. This is obviously a reference to an advanced level of panna, as one might perhaps expect given its position in the 'scale' of development discussed here. > Having weight it up he strives. The Co: he investigates through > vipassana, > and by this way of investigation he strives after the Path, magga. Likewise here, I think. > The Co. then explains that he realizes the truth of nibbana by the > mental > body, nama-kaya. He thoroughly penetrates it. He sees it by magga panna > which is accompanied by (sampayutta) the nama kaya (the other nama > dhammas). Reference to citta and cetasika as 'body' takes a little getting used to! However, I am coming to realise it is an established way of referring to citta and cetasika in the context of the attainment of the path. > Just a few notes, and my translation is coarse. Nina. Very helpful, thanks Nina. If only we had these Com. in English! Jon 9328 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodia, Ch 9, (1) Hi Nina Thanks for sharing I think the whether we know when is theoretical understanding is helpful or when it suppose to be not, is a difficult line to draw. It is a difficult decision as we need theoretical basis for practising the dhamma, and from pratising dhamma understand theoreticial basis. It is like a cycle. But when is such theortical basis going to stop benefitting and when to stop getting bottom of certain theories, that is I find the most difficult for me at present. I have stop investigation theoretical understanding for a long while, but since knowing this group abt Abidhamma, the interest of theoreticial understanding is again fire up. Maybe one day, the thirst will quench when there is adequate theoretical understanding but for now, it is a relentless search for answers in this Abidhammic studies and how it relates to my previous school of thoughts and its beneficial support for the development in the liberation of oneself. Kind regards Ken O --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Lectures in Cambodia, by A.Sujin. Ch 9, no. 1. > Chapter 9 > > Dhamma Discussion in Hotel Sofitel, Phnom Penh (I) > > Sujin: When paññå of the degree of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa > arises, > it arises even against our expectations. We should not think ahead of > time > that it should arise in a moment, very soon. This is wrong, because the > development of pañña must be with detachment. If desire slips in, we are > not > on the right way and we shall not reach the goal. The right way, the > development of paññå, is very intricate, very subtle. As has been > appropriately stated in the scriptures: it is difficult to understand > the > four noble Truths because they are profound. For the development of > satipaììhåna, we should not sit and think of getting hold of sati in > order > to ³use² it. We cannot ³use² pañña, but there should be correct > understanding from the beginning, from now on. This understanding is > included in the khandha of formations, saòkhårakkhandha, which forms up > conditions for the arising of sammåsati that is aware of realities. When > one > touches things which are hard during the day there is no sati, because > one > has the notion of touching things such as a table. But when we have > listened > to the Dhamma we understand that hardness is only a kind of reality. If > we > often listen and have more understanding, there can be firm saññå, we > can > remember that everything is dhamma, reality, and this is the first level > of > understanding. We should not forget that everything is dhamma. If we do > not > forget this, there are conditions for the arising of sati that is aware > of > the reality of hardness, odour or other dhammas. It depends on > conditions > whether sati arises and is aware of realities. When sati arises it can > be > aware precisely of a characteristic of the dhamma that we used to take > for > something hard. When there is awareness, paññå can know that this is > only a > kind of dhamma, and that the element that experiences hardness is not > self. > However, before we can know that it is an element that experiences, not > self, we should develop paññå for a long time until there is no longer > the > concept of the whole world that we used to have. Then only the element > that > experiences remains, and this is the characteristic of nåma that is not > blended or mixed with rúpa. Nåma dhamma is the reality that can know > everything. From birth to death there is nåma dhamma, at every moment. > When > sati arises we can gradually begin to understand the characteristics of > rúpa > dhamma and nåma dhamma which we used to know from listening to the > Dhamma > and from the study of the different texts of the scriptures. When we are > aware of the realities that are appearing we shall begin to understand > the > characteristic of rúpa and the characteristic of nåma. Sati is aware, > not > because we cause its arising or do something special to induce it. We > should > understand that each life is citta, cetasika and rúpa. When sati is > aware > and there is gradually more understanding, little by little, > satipaììhåna > develops, so that one day insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa, can arise. > This > kind of paññå can penetrate the true nature of the characteristics of > nåma > dhamma and rúpa dhamma, without there being concepts of people and > things > blended in. The element that experiences appears through the mind-door. > At > the moments of insight knowledge nothing else exists but the element > that > experiences, nåma dhamma, and rúpa dhamma, and these appear one at a > time. > Insight knowledge is the paññå that realizes the difference between nåma > dhamma and rúpa dhamma, it realizes their characteristics as distinct > from > each other, as they appear one at a time through the mind-door. We have > heard of sense-door process and mind-door process, and also now a > mind-door > process is in between the sense-door processes, it follows upon each > sense-door process. However, the mind-door process is not evident > because it > is, as it were, hidden by the sense-door processes. Also when there is > thinking of names and concepts on account of sense objects, the > mind-door > process is not apparent. At such moments the arising and falling away of > realities is not evident. Realities have already arisen and disappeared > anyway. When concepts hide the truth one does not know paramattha > dhammas, > ultimate realities. However, when pañña has been developed to the degree > of > insight knowledge, the mind-door process appears and then there is no > more > doubt about it. At this moment realities appear through the sense-doors, > through the eyes or the ears, but while one is thinking, nothing appears > through the eyes or the ears. While one is thinking, there is no > colour, no > sound. We know through the study of the Dhamma and by memorizing what we > learnt that there is the mind-door process, but the reality of the > mind-door > process does not appear. However, the paññå that is insight knowledge > knows > all realities through the mind-door. Realities appear one at a time > through > the mind-door. How does one feel about that? > > Jarurin: Perhaps one is frightened. > > Sujin: It depends on conditions. It is an experience that never before > arose > in life, but pañña at that moment is able to know that characteristic as > nåma, and that is vipassanå ñåùa. One may be frightened or astonished > while > thinking why realities appear in this way, because one never thought > that > the world one is familiar with does, in the ultimate sense, not exist. > Usually the whole wide world appears, because one has eyes and ears and > thus > this world one is familiar with appears. It appears in this way until > the > time comes when the world appears as empty; then there is only the citta > which knows the characteristics of dhammas that appear, and which knows > that > the realities arise and appear because there are the appropriate > conditions. > Paññå will clearly realize that rúpa appears through the sense-door and > subsequently through the mind-door. This is according to the truth. > > The saying: ³There is nothing, then there is something and after that > there > is nothing to be found², is according to the truth. Paññå knows that > everything the Buddha taught is the truth that appears and that can be > known, from the first level of paññå on, which is knowing the > characteristics of nåma and of rúpa. People should not forego any stage > of > paññå and try to do something else. They should develop paññå so that > they > know first of all the characteristics of realities that are nåma and > rúpa. > We cannot know yet as it is lobha-múla-citta, and we cannot know yet > whether > it is accompanied by wrong view or not. When we study and we have > theoretical knowledge of realities, the characteristics of nåma and rúpa > do > not appear, because we only know the terms. We may say that this type of > lobha is accompanied by wrong view and that type by conceit, but this > does > not mean that we know the realities that arise and appear and then fall > away. Realities arise and then fall away, they disappear very rapidly, > but > we only know the names of dhammas. If one wants to understand the true > nature of realities, it is not sufficient to know only terms and > concepts of > the different dhammas. The purpose of listening to the Dhamma should not > merely be theoretical understanding of realities, but it should be the > practice, that is the development of paññå according to the method of > the > Suttanta, of the Abhidhamma and of the Vinaya, the Book of Discipline > for > the monks. 9329 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:30am Subject: Re: meththa meditation Dear Mike, more questions... :) >>> If concentration is developed to the point of samadhi, it can be kusala or akusala. Since there are hugely more moments of akusala than kusala (moments conditioned by aversion, desire and/or ignorance), there is a much greater chance that samadhi will strengthen akusala rather than kusala, unless accompanied by strong understanding--conditioned by hearing and reflecting on the Dhamma. Dear mike; could you please give me some examples of what akusala feelings would come in samadi. I know Buddha has told that if you want to go to nirwana you should discipline your self in sila, samadi & prangna. >This is why satipatthaana is unique among kusala--only it can (usually very >gradually)eradicate the kilesas. mike; could you please tell me how to do satipatthaana... >Just expressing a few of my own half-baked opinions. Enjoying every bit of it... Also, I want to ask another question... We have a desire within us to be liked by other people. in other words we like if other people like us. Now, is this an akusala? if so how should we think? we do things and avoid things sometimes thinking of this feeling... Say... if I do this he may not like it. So actually I am thinking about me rather than him even though I do something good to him... how should these situations be handled? (well I can think of pages to write here. but want to get your openion...) ~meththa Ranil 9330 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala Hi everyone, Just a few questions on: Restraint of the Sense Faculties verse 64: (p.38) The Discourse on the Fruits of Reclusehip "And how, great king, does the bhikkhu guard the doors of his sense faculties? Herein, great king, having seen a form with the eye, the bhikkhu does not grasp at the sign or the details. Since, if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye, evil unwholesome states such as covetousness and grief might assail him, he practises restraint, guards the faculty of the eye, and achieves restraint over the faculty of the eye." and so on and so forth, for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. 'guard the doors of his sense faculties' - How does one continuously do this? The thing I have noticed about these 'doors' is that they may - (but I don't perceive them to) - open in an orderly fashion one after another so one can deal with what attempts to enter.......... Right now, I can feel my fingers and wrists are on the keyboard, the chair under my thighs and clothes and jewellry on my body, my feet in my shoes on the floor, my eyes are looking at the cursor and printing appearing on the screen - but also can see with my peripheral vision the book shelves above the computer, and the curtains and carpet, whiteboard on the wall - I can hear the humming of the computer, the crickets and frogs outside the windows, smell the wet, earthy scent of garden, grass and eucalypt leaves after rain, and the fragrance of tea in the cup on the side-table, the taste of the last mouthful in my mouth. And there are probably a lot of things that aren't registering, because I'm not that sensitised or practised yet.... To 'not grasp at the sign or details' would surely require that the object be identified and screened in some way for 'wholesomeness' in the first place? How does one survive in the everyday world - fulfil whatever duties are necessary - and not be swamped by incoming sense impressions? Awareness would still require sweeping over the other sense faculties to check out what was happening, or, perhaps, choosing only one sense faculty to concentrate on more fully?...block out some of the others?.......The mind often does that of its own accord anyway, daydreaming and not noticing anything else for some time. Wouldn't it be easier to sit, close the eyes, and watch the breath. Reduces the number of visual objects at least, and fosters/forces concentration..........But that can't be done while going about my daily business, either. "Unwholesome" I can understand, but doesn't it seem a little harsh to say grief is "evil"? Evil in the usual sense of 'wicked, heinous, or sinful' would seem to imply a 'deliberate intention' - no-one would *intend* or *desire* to feel grief.......(maybe cause someone else grief, but not to themselves). Such a small verse, such voluminous questions, I begin to understand how the commentaries grew exponentially. metta, Christine 9331 From: Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 4:51am Subject: Re: hello all! Dear Kelvin, The Buddha and Jesus were very alike in that they both had insight into the nature of reality. The Buddha, whose footsteps I am not worthy to walk in, said : Thus I say, beings are heirs of their kammas. Jesus, of like status, said: You will reap as you sow. The nature of reality is one's intention toward it. This is reality on Mars and Alaska. Temples, churches, rites, rituals, statues and crucifixes, chanting, mantras, bowing, deacons, bhikkus, nuns, priests etc etc if ever these things become things in themselves, and are not axes and blowtorches at the roots of delusional thinking that say "here am I, I will be ", then they are nutrients to the selfsame. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kelvin liew peng chuan" wrote: > > Dear All, > > May you all be well, happy & peaceful! i was requested by an e- friend to > give a short write up to introduce Buddhism in a Christian website. can you > all help me? > > sorry for being silent all this while, i see the pace of discussion's very > fast & deep! it's enlightening to read the discussions, though.i hope > someone can help me. > > thanks in advance, saddhu ! saddhu! saddhu! > > ~ sampuna 9332 From: Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 7:50am Subject: Re: Commentaries Dear Chritstine (and Sarah) How are you? You wrote: "'For explanations of the training rules observed by the bhikkhu, the commentator refers to the exegesis of the sections on moral discipline included in the commentary to the Brahmajala Sutta. Some of these remarks have been incorporated into the English renderings themselves. For further amplification, see The All-Embracing Net of Views, pp. 118-25)' ....... ............................Perhaps there is another interpretation, as many esteemed Bhikkus are medically trained and practice..." The commentary to the Brahmajala Suttam merely explains the names and cures of the diseases and complaints. It does not say why the practice of medicine is the wrong livelihood for the monks. However, the Tiikaa (subcommentary) touched upon the matter briefly as we find the following in Section 27, Brahmajaala Suttam Tiikaa, Siilakkandha Vagga Tiikaa. "Sabbaani cetaani aajiivahetukaaniyeva idhaadhippetaani "micchaajiivena jiivikaam kappentii"ti vuttattaa." "And, here, all those (categories) are meant (should be understood) only as those done for the sake of livelihood because they (certain some monks) are said to make a living by means of wrong livelihood." According to Tiikaa, we could infer that there should not be any problem if a Buddhist monk practised medicine as a hobby or for the sake of science in his spare time. Similarly, the Buddhist monks, without breaking Vinaya rules, could practise any worthwhile hobby such as martial arts, computer science, and the like as long as they do not undertake those hobbies at the expense of the Noble Eightfold Path. I belive that Sarah also wrote the following along the lines of the above Tiikaa: "... as I understand it, the practice of Medicine and Surgery is wrong livelihood for a bhikkhu and this would come under the rules and precepts that the bhikkhu follows. ...This doesn't mean a bhikkhu could not help someone in need, such as applying a bandage to a bleeding wound if someone collapsed in front of him." (Message 9325) With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Slowly going through the Moral Discipline sections - > > Samannaphala Sutta 'The Small Section on Moral Discipline' > p.31 of The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship - Bhikkhu Bodhi > verse 45 > 'He abstains from accepting uncooked grain, raw meat,women and girls, > male and female slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and swine, elephants, > cattle, horses and mares.' > Hmmmm....a little uncomfortable at coming behind the uncooked grain > and raw meat - but at least women were listed ahead of the fowl and > swine. :-) > > Is the Buddha's attitude to pursuing human rights (engaged buddhism?) > recorded? Or are the varied situations in life that people find > themselves in secondary to learning the way out of Samsara? > > verse 62 > 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered > by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by > such debased arts as: promising gifts to deities in return for > favours; fulfilling such promises; demonology; reciting spells after > entering an earthen house; inducing virility and impotence; preparing > and consecrating sites for a house; giving ceremonial mouthwashes and > ceremonial bathing; offering sacrificial fires;' > > I'm O.K. up to here, - but the next sentences seem to include the > practice of Medicine and Surgery in 'wrong means of livelihood'....Is > there any other explanation? > > 'administering emetics, purgatives, expectorants and phlegmagogues; > administering ear-medicine, eye-medicine nose-medicine, collyrium, > and counter-ointments; 'curing cataracts, practising surgery, > practising as a children's doctor; administering medicines to cure > bodily diseases and balms to counter their after-effects - he > abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased > arts. This too pertains to his moral discipline.' > > The Commentary merely says: > 45-62 The Sections on Moral Discipline > "For explanations of the training rules observed by the bhikkhu, the > commentator refers to the exegesis of the sections on moral > discipline included in the commentary to the Brahmajala Sutta. Some > of these remarks have been incorporated into the English renderings > themselves. For further amplification, see The All-Embracing Net of > Views, pp. 118-25)" > Which isn't helpful when one doesn't own a copy.... Does anyone? > Perhaps there is another interpretation, as many esteemed Bhikkus are > medically trained and practice....... > > Metta, > Christine 9333 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 7:52am Subject: Re: Somewhat O/T: New York (was: Re: [dsg] Tai Chi - Howard) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I'm a prof in the computer science dept teaching courses in the theory > of computation and computational complexity. (I'm a theory person, because > all my training is in mathematics.) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- neat. think we can set up a program to predict the likelihood of total annihilation of all experience in parinibbana? Perhaps we'll say hello to you next time we're in > > town! > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be great. Please e-mail me if you ever plan to come in. > ------------------------------------------------------- Well, I definitely will. We'd love to meet you! These guys keep meeting in Thailand and India. Well, we can have a New York contingent. "Anatta day, anatta dollar". > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yo! If ya got anicca, ya gotta scratch it!! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------- oh my God. You notice that no one has dared to respond to these puns. Too painful. Regards, Robert Ep. 9334 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] discernment or realities- yoga/tai chi Dear Sarah, I don't think you were too blunt, Sarah. In a sense, I think it means that you just enjoy the yoga in its own right, as something to 'do' and experience, and that is actually a much more 'enlightened' state, I would say, than doing it with striving and expectation. The strain that we often have on our involvements to somehow elevate us above the flow of life, simply creates more stress and disappointment. But to do something so consistently, because it is something you have a predilection for, can't really be argued against. However, I take it that you perhaps have some 'aversion' to the potential for Hindu philosophy to enter into the scene. I'm sure in 20 years, you've been confronted with some Hindu beliefs accompanying your yoga friends' practice. I have also known several other Buddhists in my Iyengar career and they seemed to be quite accepted and got along nicely with both the system and the people in New York and elsewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong about the above, but I think it might be an interesting issue [or not], how we react to philosophies that are different than our own? I spent many years trying to figure out what the right 'view' is, even now I struggle between aspects of Theravada and Mahayana. But those conflicts have somewhat taken a back burner to the attempt to discern the reality that is present for awareness. And that is kind of a relief. A former associate of mine had an 'enlightening' experience when he was attempting to reconcile different instructions from different strains of Buddhism. One meditation method proposed that you cut all thoughts off at the root. Another method proposed that you allow thoughts to flow and simply observe them as thoughts. He got to a point where he was very upset trying to choose which method was right and which one to use, when he suddenly realized that the conflict he was engaging with was also a thought. In that moment he observed the present thought and the whole conflict just popped like a bubble. Anyway, I'll stop rambling, but I'll be interested to see what you think of this theme. As for the yoga itself, I would tend to think that the attention to breathing and posture that yoga promotes, the fine use of awareness and concentration, could or should lead to a greater ability to discern the present reality. Do you see that as a possibility? Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- Sarah wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > Are there any types of classes you don't take, Sarah?? > > Actually, mostly I just do my yoga or Tai Chi on my own;-) > > we > > have a > > lot in common. I studied Yang Style T'ai Chi, long form for a couple of > > years, > > then short form ..... > > I'm quite a newbie at Tai chi (same forms), but like you, have been doing > Iyengar yoga for well over 20yrs. > > > I don't know if it's right for the list, > > but > > if you want to have a thread on how discernment of realities relates to yoga > > and > > t'ai chi practices, that might be fun. Or maybe you don't see them as > > related. I > > would certainly be interested. > > You'll see I've changed the heading. I gave Howard my brief comments. Perhaps > because I became so interested in Dhamma at a fairly young age, this has always > given me my 'perspective' or understanding of realities. > > I've never felt any conflict, but I think the reason I've followed Iyengar yoga > for so long is because of the emphasis on the physical activity and action and > detail of the asanas rather than the Hindu philosophy which has never made > sense to me. We have quite a few good us teachers passing through here. > Recently Ramanand Patel came. I went to all the classes I could except the > 'philosophy session' ;-) > > Maybe one reason, I've stuck at it for so long is because i don't have any > expectations of the yoga or the teachers as anything in the slightest > 'enlightening' and hence, unlike others, I'm never disappointed about it in > this regard. Does that make any sense? > > Num likes to play tennis and Herman and Nina like to play music....just > different accumulations and interests, but ultimately still just visible > objects, sounds, attachments and thinking about concepts. > > I'm sure you and Howard will have different ideas and are bound to 'gang up';-) > hope I haven't been too blunt... (I don't put it so bluntly to my yoga > friends..) > > I'm trying to sign off for the busy weekend, > > Sarah 9335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:25am Subject: Cambodia ch9, no 2 A. Sujin's Lectures in Cambodia, Ch 9, no. 2. The purpose of listening to the Dhamma should not merely be theoretical understanding of realities, but it should be the practice, that is the development of paññå according to the method of the Suttanta, of the Abhidhamma and of the Vinaya, the Book of Discipline for the monks. Jaran: In which way is the practice according to those three methods different? Sujin: These are different methods of teaching. The Vinaya deals with conduct through body and speech. When we study the Vinaya we know that wholesome conduct through body and speech is developed by kusala citta. An example of this is the case of a monk who entered a house and sat down without having been invited by the owner of the house. When the Buddha heard of this he laid down a rule that only when the owner of a place had invited the monk he could sit down. Thus, when the monk goes to someone¹s house, but the owner has not yet invited him, should he sit down? Even small matters, matters that concern etiquette and manners, such as while one is eating, are all explained in the Vinaya, and everybody can apply these. We do not need to sit down and consider how many more sílas in addition to the five precepts we shall observe. Síla concerns our conduct through body and speech. As to the method of the Suttanta, this is very subtle and detailed, such as the teaching of dukkha-dukkha (intrinsic dukkha, bodily pain and unhappy feeling), vipariùåma-dukkha (dukkha because of change) and saòkhåra-dukkha (dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities) 1. We should study the Suttanta so that we acquire a more detailed understanding of confidence, saddhå, moral shame, hiri, and fear of blame, ottappa 2 . When we listen to the Dhamma there is confidence, sati, hiri and ottappa. We do not realize that there are hiri and ottappa, even though they are there in reality. Whenever kusala citta arises it is accompanied by hiri and ottappa, without the need to think that we are ashamed of akusala. We do not need to think first of moral shame in order that it arises and that we shall listen to the Dhamma. Whenever the reality of moral shame arises there is kusala citta at that moment. Thus, we should have more understanding of realities in detail. With regard to the Abhidhamma method of teaching, this elucidates the true nature of all paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. One should not merely know the concepts nåma and rúpa, but the characteristics of nåma and rúpa that are appearing should be realized. When satipaììhåna arises there is awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities, one at a time. When anger arises, is there anybody who does not know this, even if he does not study the Abhidhamma? When jealousy or stinginess arises, is it necessary to study the Abhidhamma so that one knows it? People know it without study, but they take these realities for self, and they do not know that these are only different dhammas. Through the Abhidhamma method one can come to understand that all realities are non-self. When attachment, aversion or conceit arise, or when we enjoy ourselves, there is no person, no self. When there is the firm remembrance of the truth of anattå, a person will not have misunderstandings about it and believe that he can do whatever he likes because everything is anattå anyway. Then he uses anattå as a trick to excuse his behaviour and he gives his own interpretation of this term. As regards the truth of anattå, does paññå grasp already its meaning? Or do we just repeat that everything is anattå? There is a considerable difference in the understanding of someone who merely studies the theory of the Dhamma and of someone who develops pañña and knows the characteristics of realities as they are. We should understand this correctly: if we know only terms and names of dhammas, we shall remain only at that level, and we shall continue to know only terms. We should develop pañña so that the truth of anattå can be realized, in accordance with the teaching that all dhammas are anattå. Otherwise, to use a simile, we are like the ladle that serves the curry but does not know the taste of it 3. If we study but we do not realize the true nature of realities, how many lives shall we be only at that level, and this means that we study and then forget what we learnt. If we know that we study with the purpose of understanding realities at this very moment, then our understanding will be in accordance with our ability. We can understand, for example, what årammaùa, object, is. It is impossible that citta does not experience an object. Citta is the reality that experiences and thus there must be something that is experienced. That which is experienced can be anything, it can be citta, cetasika, rúpa or nibbåna. A concept, paññatti , is the object of citta that thinks. We can know when the citta knows a concept and when an ultimate reality, paramattha dhamma. Every paramattha dhamma that is the object of citta, has a characteristic, and that characteristic is impermanence; it arises and falls away. When the object is not a paramattha dhamma with its true characteristic, the object is a concept. If we understand this, sati can be aware of the characteristics of paramattha dhammas, because satipaììhåna must know paramattha dhammas. The study can support correct understanding of the way of development of paññå. Everything we learn from the beginning is accumulated as the khandha of formations, saòkhårakkhandha, and this is a condition for the growth of pañña. Question: Is it correct to say that paññå and ñåùa are the same in meaning, but that they are of different levels? Sujin: It depends on the context, on the way it is used. For example, the term is used that is: kusala citta ñåùa sampayutta, kusala citta that is accompanied by paññå cetasika. Question: If someone is at the beginning level of study, he learns terms and concepts. How can he go beyond this level and do without them? Sujin: At the beginning level we learn terms and names, but what do such names designate? As to the term citta, for example, what does it designate? It is a term for a dhamma that is reality, for the element that experiences, the reality that experiences. Therefore, we should not cling to the term citta, we can change the term citta into viññåùa (consciousness) or into mano (mind). But these terms refer to the nature that experiences something, to the reality that experiences. When citta arises it must experience something, it is impossible that it would not experience something. If our understanding is correct, it will become firmer and more established. While we are asleep, is there citta? There is. While we are asleep, does citta experience an object? The nature of citta cannot be altered; it is the reality that experiences and thus, also that citta must be like that. However, while we are asleep, the object of citta does not appear, because it is the object of the bhavanga-citta, life-continuum. The bhavanga-citta succeeds the rebirth-consciousness and experiences the same object, and the rebirth-consciousness has the same object as the cittas that arose shortly before dying in the previous life. All bhavanga-cittas throughout that life experience the same object. Therefore we should know that the bhavanga-citta is not a citta that is depending on the doorways of the eyes, the ears, the nose, the body or the mind. However, it knows an object, because citta is a reality that must experience something. If we understand the true characteristics of realities there is correct understanding. If we cling and in that way interfere with the understanding of realities it is evident that they cannot be seen as they are. Question: Does this mean that when I have understanding of the realities of citta and cetasika, I do not interfere with their functions? Sujin: At this moment realities perform their own functions already, but we do not know that they are citta and cetasika. However, when we study the Dhamma, we know that citta is the leader, it is the chief in knowing an object; it does not remember, it is not angry, it does not love, it does not hate. Its only function is being the leader in knowing an object. Citta is able to experience the characteristic of what appears at this moment. The rúpa that presents itself at this moment through the eyes appears to citta. When sound appears, there are actually many kinds of sounds, but citta is able to experience each kind of sound. Thus, citta is the chief, the leader in cognizing an object, it clearly knows the different characteristics of the objects that present themselves. However, citta is not paññå; paññå is correct understanding that knows realities as non-self. ******* Footnotes. 1. The suttas deal with the teaching and its application in daily life. The Buddha spoke, for example, about dukkha in daily life, about the loss of family and friends through death. He would speak about dukkha because of change, vipariùåma dukkha, when people were ready to understand this. If people had developed more understanding he would speak about the five khandhas that are impermanent and thus dukkha. The purpose of the study of the Suttanta is knowing the characteristics of realities appearing now, the khandhas, dhåtus (elements), åyatanas (sense-fields), thus nåma and rúpa. Also in the Suttanta Abhidhamma is taught. 2. The Buddha taught in the Suttanta the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. When hiri, ottappa and saddhå arise, one sees the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. 3. The ladle that serves the curry is time and again in contact with the curry, but does not know the taste. Evenso, all realities are anattå, but we do not realize this. ****** 9336 From: Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] discernment or realities- yoga/tai chi Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/16/01 11:07:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > A former associate of mine had an 'enlightening' experience when he was > attempting > to reconcile different instructions from different strains of Buddhism. > One > meditation method proposed that you cut all thoughts off at the root. > Another > method proposed that you allow thoughts to flow and simply observe them as > thoughts. He got to a point where he was very upset trying to choose which > method > was right and which one to use, when he suddenly realized that the conflict > he was > engaging with was also a thought. In that moment he observed the present > thought > and the whole conflict just popped like a bubble. > ============================= That's *great*!! In reading this I can almost "feel" the opening up of the mind in this experience of impersonality. Just wonderful! BTW, this scenario seems, itself, to actually integrate different approaches within Buddhism, with the realization of emptiness, the wisdom, arising as the result of mindfulness of thoughts, but energized by something much akin to "Great Doubt" of koan Zen!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9337 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] discernment or realities- yoga/tai chi --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 11/16/01 11:07:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > A former associate of mine had an 'enlightening' experience when he was > > attempting > > to reconcile different instructions from different strains of Buddhism. > > One > > meditation method proposed that you cut all thoughts off at the root. > > Another > > method proposed that you allow thoughts to flow and simply observe them as > > thoughts. He got to a point where he was very upset trying to choose which > > method > > was right and which one to use, when he suddenly realized that the conflict > > he was > > engaging with was also a thought. In that moment he observed the present > > thought > > and the whole conflict just popped like a bubble. > > > ============================= > That's *great*!! In reading this I can almost "feel" the opening up of > the mind in this experience of impersonality. Just wonderful! Dear Howard, Yes, I also found a lot to look at and enjoy in this story. It seemed to summarize a lot of the striving we do to find the truth that is right under our nose. > BTW, this scenario seems, itself, to actually integrate different > approaches within Buddhism, with the realization of emptiness, the wisdom, > arising as the result of mindfulness of thoughts, but energized by something > much akin to "Great Doubt" of koan Zen!! Interesting metaphor in a way too, that all the conflicts between different 'views' or 'efforts' are resolved in seeing what is. Best, Robert Ep. 9338 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:39pm Subject: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi All I have read the useful post in Bhavanga cittas, I like to ask what are objects do Bhavanga citta have during sleep as all the sense door is closed at that momment. Second question, as they are the first three cittas during a thought process, what are their objects also? Kind regards Ken O 9339 From: Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala --- Dear Christine, These questions are ones we all have asked and ask ourselves again and again. If the answers are found then we understand samatha and vipassana and sila and the differences. Comments interpersed: In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hi everyone, > Just a few questions on: > Restraint of the Sense Faculties verse 64: (p.38) The Discourse on > the Fruits of Reclusehip > > "And how, great king, does the bhikkhu guard the doors of his sense > faculties? Herein, great king, having seen a form with the eye, the > bhikkhu does not grasp at the sign or the details. Since, if he were > to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye, evil > unwholesome states such as covetousness and grief might assail him, > he practises restraint, guards the faculty of the eye, and achieves > restraint over the faculty of the eye." and so on and so forth, for > ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. > > 'guard the doors of his sense faculties' - How does one > continuously do this? The thing I have noticed about these 'doors' > is that they may - (but I don't perceive them to) - open in an > orderly fashion one after another so one can deal with what attempts > to enter.......... Right now, I can feel my fingers and wrists are on > the keyboard, the chair under my thighs and clothes and jewellry on > my body, my feet in my shoes on the floor, my eyes are looking at the > cursor and printing appearing on the screen - but also can see with > my peripheral vision the book shelves above the computer, and the > curtains and carpet, whiteboard on the wall - I can hear the humming > of the computer, the crickets and frogs outside the windows, smell > the wet, earthy scent of garden, grass and eucalypt leaves after > rain, and the fragrance of tea in the cup on the side-table, the > taste of the last mouthful in my mouth. And there are probably a lot > of things that aren't registering, because I'm not that sensitised > or practised yet.... > To 'not grasp at the sign or details' would surely require that the > object be identified and screened in some way for 'wholesomeness' in > the first place? > How does one survive in the everyday world - fulfil whatever duties > are necessary - and not be swamped by incoming sense impressions? > Awareness would still require sweeping over the other sense faculties > to check out what was happening, or, perhaps, choosing only one sense > faculty to concentrate on more fully?...block out some of the > others?.......The mind often does that of its own accord anyway, > daydreaming and not noticing anything else for some time. Wouldn't > it be easier to sit, close the eyes, and watch the breath. Reduces > the number of visual objects at least, and fosters/forces > concentration..........But that can't be done while going about my > daily business, either. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The monks went about their daily business and yet they were encouraged to guard the sense doors at all times: whether walking, talking, eating or going to the toilet. If it were impossible the Buddha wouldn't have said so. It is true that normally whenever there are desirable objects contacting the sense doors that desire immediately follows. Wise ones of all ages knew this and so they turned away from the sense doors and developed samatha by concentrating on various objects. If they were skillful they could develop jhana during which no sense objects appear and thus they could be free of defilements during these times. This is one way of guarding the senses. Another way is that of the development of vipassana which understands that actual nature of the elements involved in the sense door process. This type of insight interrupts the usual running after concepts. There is not attention to the concepts but there is attention to the paramattha dhammas. +++++++ > > "Unwholesome" I can understand, but doesn't it seem a little harsh to > say grief is "evil"? Evil in the usual sense of 'wicked, heinous, or > sinful' would seem to imply a 'deliberate intention' - no-one would > *intend* or *desire* to feel grief.......(maybe cause someone else > grief, but not to themselves). ++++++++ In Buddhism ignorance is evil and very hard to uproot. robert 9340 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala Christine You have picked a very pertinent (and advanced) passage here. --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hi everyone, > Just a few questions on: > Restraint of the Sense Faculties verse 64: (p.38) The Discourse on > the Fruits of Reclusehip > > "And how, great king, does the bhikkhu guard the doors of his sense > faculties? Herein, great king, having seen a form with the eye, the > bhikkhu does not grasp at the sign or the details. Since, if he were > to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye, evil > unwholesome states such as covetousness and grief might assail him, > he practises restraint, guards the faculty of the eye, and achieves > restraint over the faculty of the eye." and so on and so forth, for > ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. > Your comments are in 3 parts. 1/ > 'guard the doors of his sense faculties' - How does one > continuously do this? The thing I have noticed about these 'doors' > is that they may - (but I don't perceive them to) - open in an > orderly fashion one after another so one can deal with what attempts > to enter.......... Right now, I can feel my fingers and wrists are on > the keyboard, the chair under my thighs and clothes and jewellry on > my body, my feet in my shoes on the floor, my eyes are looking at the > cursor and printing appearing on the screen - but also can see with > my peripheral vision the book shelves above the computer, and the > curtains and carpet, whiteboard on the wall - I can hear the humming > of the computer, the crickets and frogs outside the windows, smell > the wet, earthy scent of garden, grass and eucalypt leaves after > rain, and the fragrance of tea in the cup on the side-table, the > taste of the last mouthful in my mouth. And there are probably a lot > of things that aren't registering, because I'm not that sensitised > or practised yet.... Christine, I like your description of all the things that are ‘happening’ at the present moment. This is life as it is, so much going on at any one moment. You wonder how there could ever be ‘guarding’ of all this and presumably of the rest that is going on also but which is not apparent to us. Let me say at the outset, because I think this is very important, that no-one is asking us to change, or to try to change, any of what is happening now, naturally. In other words, the teaching is not about ‘slowing down’ the present moment, or contriving to reduce the speed, variety or strength of sense impressions. That would be trying to change the reality of the present moment in some manner, rather than simply understanding it more for what it is. You are interested to know how the sense doors could possibly be guarded continuously. The explanation of what is meant by the *guarding of the sense doors* is in the passage that follows this particular reference. To my understanding (as I will try to indicate below), it refers to momentary awareness (satipatthana) of the present reality. The *continuous* aspect occurs only for one in whom awareness has been highly developed over many lifetimes. For us lot this means that, on the one hand, *continuous* guarding is simply not an option and, on the other hand, nor should its absence be a matter of concern (ie. we are all off the hook here). 2/ > To 'not grasp at the sign or details' would surely require that the > object be identified and screened in some way for 'wholesomeness' in > the first place? > How does one survive in the everyday world - fulfil whatever duties > are necessary - and not be swamped by incoming sense impressions? > Awareness would still require sweeping over the other sense faculties > to check out what was happening, or, perhaps, choosing only one sense > faculty to concentrate on more fully?...block out some of the > others?.......The mind often does that of its own accord anyway, > daydreaming and not noticing anything else for some time. Wouldn't > it be easier to sit, close the eyes, and watch the breath. Reduces > the number of visual objects at least, and fosters/forces > concentration..........But that can't be done while going about my > daily business, either. You are right to point out the impracticability of ‘screening’ incoming sense impressions in some way. This also is not the teaching of the Buddha although, as you mention, if one had this idea one would perhaps be lead into somehow trying to restrict incoming sense impressions. The development of awareness (satipatthana), taught by the Buddha as the way to the development of understanding (vipassana) and eventual attainment of enlightenment, is to be understood as something that applies as much at this very moment as it does at any other. The guarding of the sense doors starts with an understanding that the world as it appears to us is in fact various realities (dhammas) any one of which can be the object of momentary awareness, if the right intellectual understanding, through study of the teachings, has been developed. This in brief is how I understand the passage you have cited. A more detailed discussion would include a close look at the terms ‘sign or details’ and what is meant by ‘grasping’ at these. This is advanced stuff but very interesting. There has been some recent mention of this on our list, which I will perhaps try to summarise in a separate message. 3/ > "Unwholesome" I can understand, but doesn't it seem a little harsh to > say grief is "evil"? Evil in the usual sense of 'wicked, heinous, or > sinful' would seem to imply a 'deliberate intention' - no-one would > *intend* or *desire* to feel grief.......(maybe cause someone else > grief, but not to themselves). > I am not sure what the Pali term would be that has been translated as ‘evil’. However, evil thoughts or intentions are accompanied by either attachment (lobha – covetousness) or aversion (dosa – grief), so I would be inclined to read it in this sense. > Such a small verse, such voluminous questions, I begin to understand > how the commentaries grew exponentially. > metta, > Christine Christine, your questions and comments are very much to the point, and useful for us all to reflect on. Thanks for the chance to discuss. Jon 9341 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello all! Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > Later I talked > about what makes Buddhism > distinct from other religions and in particular > anatta, no being, no God and so > on. No God, really? What about Brahma Sahampatti(sp)? who beseeched the Buddha to teach? Lots of gods, I think--just in different roles from that of the Christian variety. A matter of perspective, perhaps? mike 9342 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Dear Sarah and Ranil, I left something out of my rant:: --- Sarah wrote: > As I understand the nature of metta, it can never be > directed towards one's > 'own self'. All the brahma viharas must be directed > to others, such as now > when we're considering and showing friendliness or > assistance to each other. As I understand it, the brahma viharas aren't 'directed' towards 'oneself' or 'others'. The pre-eminent characteristic of all of them is that they are directed to absolutely all beings without exception in every direction and to the entire cosmos, rather than being directed at someone in particular. For what it's worth, mike 9343 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi All > > I have read the useful post in Bhavanga cittas, I like to ask what are > objects do Bhavanga citta have during sleep as all the sense door is > closed at that momment. Second question, as they are the first three > cittas during a thought process, what are their objects also? > >+++++++++++++++ Dear Ken, very useful to learn the theory about bhavanga cittas. They are occurring all the time and yet we are usually totaly unaware of these dhammas. Nina van Gorkom writes:""Every citta must have an object and thus the bhavanga-citta too has an object. Seeing has what is visible as object; hearing has sound as object, but the bhavanga-citta has an object which is different from the objects presenting themselves through the senses and through the mind-door. The bhavang-acitta which is the same type of citta as the patisandhi-citta also experiences the same object as the patisandhi-citta. As we have seen (Ch. 10) the patisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising shortly before the cuti-citta of the previous life. If akusala kamma is going to produce the patisandhi-citta, akusala cittas arise shortly before the cuti-citta and they experience an unpleasant object. If kusala kamma is going to produce the patisandhi-citta, kusala cittas arise shortly before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. Whatever the object is, the patisandhi-citta of the next life experiences the same object. The patisandhi-citta is succeeded by the first bhavanga-citta of that life and this citta experiences the same object as the patisandhi- citta. Moreover, all bhavanga-cittas of that life experience that object. The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 114) states with regard to the bhavanga- citta: When the patisandhi-citta has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-consciousness it may be, the same kinds, being the result of the same kamma whatever it may be, occur as bhavanga-cittas with that same object; and again those same kinds. And as long as there is no other kind of arising of consciousness to interrupt the continuity they also go on occurring endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a river. The bhavanga-cittas are like the current of a river and this is interrupted when there is an object presenting itself through one of the senses or through the mind-door. When the cittas of the sense- door process or the mind-door process have fallen away, there is again the current of bhavanga-cittas.""endquote http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-12.htm robert 9344 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi Robert K Much thanks. "As we have seen (Ch. 10) the patisandhi-citta experiences the same > object as the akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising shortly before > the cuti-citta of the previous life. If akusala kamma is going to > produce the patisandhi-citta, akusala cittas arise shortly before the > cuti-citta and they experience an unpleasant object. If kusala kamma > is going to produce the patisandhi-citta, kusala cittas arise shortly > before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. Whatever > the object is, the patisandhi-citta of the next life experiences the > same object" k: Let say if before we sleep we have kusala cittas, would that mean that the bhavanga cittas also have such wholesome objects. "The patisandhi-citta is succeeded by the first bhavanga-citta of that > life and this citta experiences the same object as the patisandhi- > citta. Moreover, all bhavanga-cittas of that life experience that > object" k: Does this sentence imply that bhavanga citta object does not change at all in one life time. With thanks Ken O 9345 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:55am Subject: Cambodia Ch 10, no 1 A. Sujin, Lectures in Cambodia. Chapter 10. no. 1 Dhamma Discussions in Hotel Sofitel (Part II) Question: Someone said that he thought of hardness, but this is a term. You said that this kind of thinking is better than thinking of other things. Sujin: Thinking of citta, cetasika and rúpa is better than thinking of other things. Question: That resembles clinging to samådhi, concentration, fixing our attention on one object. Sujin: Nobody can prevent himself from thinking. There are conditions for thinking and thus we think time and again. However, before we listened to the Dhamma we used to think of this or that person, this or that thing. After we have listened to the Dhamma, we think of citta, of cetasika, but we should know that this is only thinking, not awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, paññå should grow and understand realities more deeply. Question: When we cling, we may keep on concentrating on realities, is that not so? Sujin: Therefore, paññå should develop. We should know that at such moments there is no understanding of the characteristics of realities. People may merely think about realities when they experience the characteristic of hardness through touch. At such moments they are inclined to think, this is hardness, or, hardness is rúpa. They think of names, of words. From now on one should understand that when one knows at such moments just words, it is not satipaììhåna. Realities must have characteristics that appear. Hardness is a characteristic of dhamma that is real; hardness arises and falls away, but this can be known by paññå. When paññå does not arise it seems that a reality is present already all the time, but one does not realize the truth. A reality arises so that it can be experienced through contact; thus, it can appear, and then it falls away immediately. If people have listened to the Dhamma, the right cause can bring its appropriate result. When they have realized the truth they know that it must be in the way I just explained. Krayadib: Before I practised, it seemed that I was clinging to the word bhåvanå, mental development. But gradually this inclination disappeared when I asked myself what kind of habit I was accumulating. Now I study the Dhamma and I have refrained already for a long time from clinging in that way. Now I am used to often think about concepts designating realities. I know that this is a dhamma that thinks. Acharn explained this, so that we know that it is a reality that thinks. I worry about it that I seem to merely repeat these words, and I wonder how this will gradually disappear. Jonothan: Acharn says that hardness is a reality that arises and falls away all the time. Sujin: Hardness arises and then it appears; if it does not arise it cannot appear. Is this true or not? Paññå should know the truth of everything. Jonothan: Knowing the characteristic of hardness when it appears and knowing its arising and falling away is not the same. Is that correct? Sujin: There must be different levels of pannå that realizes these matters. The paññå of the beginning level does not penetrate the arising and falling away of realities. In the beginning people have only theoretical knowledge of the elements of nåma and the rúpa, stemming from listening to the Dhamma, but they do not realize the characteristics of nåma and rúpa; they do not realize them as elements, dhåtus. At this moment there are nåma and rúpa, but their characteristics do not appear, they do not appear as elements. There are several levels of insight knowledege, and insight has to be developed stage by stage. It is impossible to realize the arising and falling away of realities immediately, before the preceding stages have been reached. We can know, when someone tries to ³watch² nåma and rúpa in order to realize their arising and falling away, and pretends that he has realized this, that he is on the wrong way. Phannipa: Do some people believe that this is the right development of satipaììhåna? In reality this is wrong understanding. Sujin: Generally people use the term sati, but they do not know the characteristic of sati. They use the word paññå without knowing what paññå is. They say that they want to control paññå, but where is paññå? Phannipa: People who study by themselves erroneously believe that satipaììhåna has arisen already, but that is wrong understanding, different from right understanding based on listening. Sujin: Therefore, people should listen to the Dhamma and consider carefully what they heard so that they will understand it. For example, sati is not samådhi, concentration, but people follow the wrong way because they take samådhi for sati. Samådhi is the reality that concentrates on one object, but sati is not samådhi. Sati is a sobhana sådhåraùa (meaning general, common) cetasika, it accompanies only sobhana cittas, and it accompanies each sobhana citta. Sati accompanies each level of kusala, be it of the level of dåna, síla, samatha or vipassanå. There is satipaììhåna when someone is aware of the characteristics of realities as they are naturally appearing at this moment. This kind of understanding stems from listening to the Dhamma. Before one listened to the Dhamma one could not be aware of the characteristics of realities. When someone has listened and understood what he heard, he can be aware of the characteristics of realities. Gradually he can begin to understand the characteristics of realities which are of two different kinds: nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma. There is, for example, seeing at this moment. Seeing is the reality that experiences, seeing does not have any shape or form; seeing sees what is appearing through the eyes. Seeing is nåma dhamma that is able to see something, this is the function of that kind of element. It is an element that has no shape or form. Paññå can gradually develop and penetrate the nature of nåma dhamma and that is satipaììhåna. When a reality appears, sati can arise and be aware of that reality, and then paññå can begin to gradually develop so that there will be correct understanding of its characteristic. If others say that it is not satipaììhåna at the moment when understanding of what is real and what appears gradually develops, is that true?. Satipaììhåna does not depend on someone else¹s words; it is reality, and at such moments there are dhammas appearing. We are usually forgetful of realities, but when sati arises and is aware, there is gradually more understanding of the characteristics that are real, the characteristics that are appearing. This is satipaììhåna. We have theoretical knowledge of the four applications of mindfulness of body, feeling, citta and dhammas, but we should understand that these are real at this moment. Hardness, for example is a reality that is appearing. When sati arises and is aware just for a few moments, the understanding cannot not be clear yet, but this is like the knife handle that wears away each moment someone holds it. Therefore, each time paññå arises there is a condition for its growth and accomplishment. One must have the firm conviction that paññå can know only the reality that is appearing. Paññå is not able to know something that does not appear, something that has fallen away or that has not yet arisen. Paññå can know what is true at this moment, and in this way we can understand the dependent origination of phenomena, the paticca samuppåda: not knowing the truth is the first link of the dependent origination, which is ignorance, avijjå 1 . Avijjå, ignorance, accompanies citta, it cannot arise with rúpa. Whenever we do not understand the truth of realities there is avijjå. If we study the Dhamma more in detail we shall know when there is akusala citta and when vipåkacitta, citta that is result of kamma. Avijjå cetasika is not conascent with vipåkacitta, but there is the latent tendency of avijjå, avijjånusaya, in each citta so long as avijjå has not been eradicated. More understanding of the details of the Dhamma is a condition for beginning to develop the paññå that realizes the truth, and then there will not be clinging to mere words and concepts. However, we should know that reading, listening and studying a great deal is beneficial, because this is a condition for the growth of understanding. We should study and consider the Dhamma with right understanding and we should see the benefit of this. It is necessary to have patience with regard to the development of paññå, it is bound to take a long time. In the Tipiìaka the expression of ³círa kåla bhåvana² is used, meaning, development that takes a long time. When we study the life stories of those who could attain enlightenment after they had developed paññå for an endlessly long time, we should not worry about it how long we have developed paññå already and how much longer we should develop it. At this moment we can evaluate the paññå we have developed because we can verify whether paññå can understand the paramattha dhamma that appears now. It is not a concept or idea; at each moment there is paramattha dhamma. 9346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodia, theory and practice op 16-11-2001 11:45 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn@y...: > > Thanks for sharing > > I think the whether we know when is theoretical understanding is helpful > or when it suppose to be not, is a difficult line to draw. It is a > difficult decision as we need theoretical basis for practising the dhamma, > and from pratising dhamma understand theoreticial basis. It is like a > cycle. > > Dear Keneth, I do understand your dilemma. But if you read on things may become clearer. A. Sujin speaks a great deal about the purpose of the study in the following chapters I shall post. As you say from the practice the theory will be clearer. It is as A. Sujin explained: as panna grpws through vipassana what you learnt by the texts becomes clearer. Theory and practice are in agreement with each other. Nina. 9347 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Dear Sarah, Ranil, Mike and All, Regarding not directing metta towards oneself..............Let me say up-front that I know I have a warped perspective on the world from daily working with the suffering, angry, excluded and unloved in my area. (Sometimes, it is difficult not to want to throw it all in and become an Interior Decorator or Plant Retailer - carpets, curtains and plants don't do reprehensible things to each other.) However, having said that, it is better to know the truth rather than just what is comforting. And I am sorry to come in very late on this topic......... One way I am using for not becoming emotionally bankrupt (burnt out) is the practice of the Brahma Viharas, in particular Loving Kindness........"I will abide pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with lovingkiness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; So above and below, around and everywhere and to all as to myself. I will abide pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness...abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill-will."(and the same for compassion, gladness, and equanimity.) Found in the lovely English chant of the Brahma Viharas at www.vipassana.com/audio_files/bvra.html I have always felt the essential foundation for being able to offer genuine love to others is that we truly love ourselves. I have read the 'Useful files' on this topic and found them educational but...... Does the Buddha in the Metta Sutta include sotto voce "but not including oneself" after 'all beings' and after 'omitting none': "Wishing: In gladness and in safety, May all beings be at ease. Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born, May all beings be at ease!" In the Visuddhi Magga X 40-43 the text seems to support the radiating of metta "to all as to myself" without discrimination. "Then he should break down the barriers by practising lovingkindness over and over again, accomplishing mental impartiality towards the four persons, that is to say, himself, the dear person, the neutral person and the hosile person." Any comments would be most welcome, but I will understand if there is 'subject fatique'. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah and Ranil, > > I left something out of my rant:: > > --- Sarah wrote: > > > As I understand the nature of metta, it can never be > > directed towards one's > > 'own self'. All the brahma viharas must be directed > > to others, such as now > > when we're considering and showing friendliness or > > assistance to each other. > > As I understand it, the brahma viharas aren't > 'directed' towards 'oneself' or 'others'. The > pre-eminent characteristic of all of them is that they > are directed to absolutely all beings without > exception in every direction and to the entire cosmos, > rather than being directed at someone in particular. > > For what it's worth, > > mike > 9348 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas ---Dear Ken, Comments below: In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert K > > Much thanks. > > "As we have seen (Ch. 10) the patisandhi-citta experiences the same > > object as the akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising shortly before > > the cuti-citta of the previous life. If akusala kamma is going to > > produce the patisandhi-citta, akusala cittas arise shortly before the > > cuti-citta and they experience an unpleasant object. If kusala kamma > > is going to produce the patisandhi-citta, kusala cittas arise shortly > > before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. Whatever > > the object is, the patisandhi-citta of the next life experiences the > > same object" > > k: Let say if before we sleep we have kusala cittas, would that mean that > the bhavanga cittas also have such wholesome objects. ++++++++++++++ The bhavanga cittas always take the same object - that which appeared shortly before death. In the case of humans this object is always a pleasant one (conditioned by good kamma done in the previous life or in some other past life). We can't know what it is, though. ++++++++ > > > "The patisandhi-citta is succeeded by the first bhavanga-citta of that > > life and this citta experiences the same object as the patisandhi- > > citta. Moreover, all bhavanga-cittas of that life experience that > > object" > > k: Does this sentence imply that bhavanga citta object does not change at > all in one life time. > > +++++++++++++++++++++ That is right. The same object is taken again and again . best wishes robert > > > With thanks > Ken O > 9349 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Ranil, Mike and All, > > Regarding not directing metta towards oneself..............Let me say > up-front that I know I have a warped perspective on the world from > daily working with the suffering, angry, excluded and unloved in my > area. (Sometimes, it is difficult not to want to throw it all in and > become an Interior Decorator or Plant Retailer - carpets, curtains > and plants don't do reprehensible things to each other.) > However, having said that, it is better to know the truth rather than > just what is comforting. And I am sorry to come in very late on this > topic......... > One way I am using for not becoming emotionally bankrupt (burnt out) > is the practice of the Brahma Viharas, in particular Loving > Kindness........"I will abide pervading one quarter with a mind > imbued with lovingkiness, likewise the second, likewise the third, > likewise the fourth; So above and below, around and everywhere and > to all as to myself. I will abide pervading the all-encompassing > world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness...abundant, exalted, > immeasurable, without hostility and without ill-will."(and the same > for compassion, gladness, and equanimity.) Found in the lovely > English chant of the Brahma Viharas at > www.vipassana.com/audio_files/bvra.html > I have always felt the essential foundation for being able to offer > genuine love to others is that we truly love ourselves. I have read > the 'Useful files' on this topic and found them educational but...... > Does the Buddha in the Metta Sutta include sotto voce "but not > including oneself" after 'all beings' and after 'omitting none': > "Wishing: In gladness and in safety, > May all beings be at ease. > Whatever living beings there may be; > Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, > The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, > The seen and the unseen, > Those living near and far away, > Those born and to-be-born, > May all beings be at ease!" > > In the Visuddhi Magga X 40-43 the text seems to support the > radiating of metta "to all as to myself" without discrimination. > "Then he should break down the barriers by practising lovingkindness > over and over again, accomplishing mental impartiality towards the > four persons, that is to say, himself, the dear person, the neutral > person and the hosile person." > Any comments would be most welcome, but I will understand if there > is 'subject fatique'. > metta, > Christine > ++++++++++++++++++ Dear Christine, Do we really need to love ourselves anymore? I think if we examine carefully almost everything we do is done out of love for ourself.The quote from the visuddhimagga shows that we should think of others with as much consideration and care as our GREATLY loved self. And do we really feel that to our friends and the people we meet, or are they a tad less important than our own feelings? The visuddhimagga IX10 notes that one should develop it towards ourself by considering that "just as I want to live and dread pain etc. so do other beings" making himself the example then desire for other beings welfare and happiness arise". It is true that if we are very unhappy then metta is hard to arise. However, at those times it may be that other ways of samatha such as Buddhanusati are more appropriate as these cause the arising of pleasant thoughts. In the Cariya-pitaka- athakatha (see bodhi net of views p323) it says "The destruction of self-love and the development of love for others are the means for the accomplishing of the paramis". robert 9350 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Dear Robert, You wrote to Ken re the object of Bhavanga Citta "We can't know what it is, though." I wonder how there could be awareness of a citta with an unknowable object. All the best Herman 9351 From: manji Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] meththa meditation Christine, Please be understanding "there is suffering", first noble truth. Maybe sometimes memories arise and difficulty arises, maybe sometimes "self" concept arises along with moments of aversion or clinging and difficulty arises. Maybe what can help is understanding first noble truth, there is suffering. Really make a sincere effort to see "right now". Mindfulness arises and seeing suffering. Then maybe, compassion arises towards others. Understanding "there is suffering". So even metta is conditioned. Arising and falling. So maybe right now there is conditioning metta. :) So sometimes I am thinking that right now seeing dhamma... Mindfulness... Etc. These are most powerful antidotes to conventional realities of self-hate and low-self esteem etc. Understanding right now dhamma with mindfulness, also understanding that these dhamma are not "self". So even great moments of suffering, not self :) So maybe cultivating a real and living metta, through wisdom and the very process... The path. :) -manji- -----Original Message----- From: Christine Forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 7:44 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Dear Sarah, Ranil, Mike and All, Regarding not directing metta towards oneself..............Let me say up-front that I know I have a warped perspective on the world from daily working with the suffering, angry, excluded and unloved in my area. (Sometimes, it is difficult not to want to throw it all in and become an Interior Decorator or Plant Retailer - carpets, curtains and plants don't do reprehensible things to each other.) However, having said that, it is better to know the truth rather than just what is comforting. And I am sorry to come in very late on this topic......... One way I am using for not becoming emotionally bankrupt (burnt out) is the practice of the Brahma Viharas, in particular Loving Kindness........"I will abide pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with lovingkiness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; So above and below, around and everywhere and to all as to myself. I will abide pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness...abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill-will."(and the same for compassion, gladness, and equanimity.) Found in the lovely English chant of the Brahma Viharas at www.vipassana.com/audio_files/bvra.html I have always felt the essential foundation for being able to offer genuine love to others is that we truly love ourselves. I have read the 'Useful files' on this topic and found them educational but...... Does the Buddha in the Metta Sutta include sotto voce "but not including oneself" after 'all beings' and after 'omitting none': "Wishing: In gladness and in safety, May all beings be at ease. Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born, May all beings be at ease!" In the Visuddhi Magga X 40-43 the text seems to support the radiating of metta "to all as to myself" without discrimination. "Then he should break down the barriers by practising lovingkindness over and over again, accomplishing mental impartiality towards the four persons, that is to say, himself, the dear person, the neutral person and the hosile person." Any comments would be most welcome, but I will understand if there is 'subject fatique'. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah and Ranil, > > I left something out of my rant:: > > --- Sarah wrote: > > > As I understand the nature of metta, it can never be directed > > towards one's 'own self'. All the brahma viharas must be directed > > to others, such as now > > when we're considering and showing friendliness or > > assistance to each other. > > As I understand it, the brahma viharas aren't > 'directed' towards 'oneself' or 'others'. The > pre-eminent characteristic of all of them is that they > are directed to absolutely all beings without > exception in every direction and to the entire cosmos, > rather than being directed at someone in particular. > > For what it's worth, > > mike > 9352 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas --- Dear Herman, Good question. There is a post about this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6585 I wrote: Paramattha dhammas arise and fall > according to their nature. However, they arise and fall in > processes. In between each process there are bhavanga cittas > (the same cittas that arise and fall continually during deep > sleep). In a sense they are the cushioning area between > processes. > I just heard on a tape someoone say to Acharn sujin that only > the buddha and wise disciple like sariputta could really know > bhavanga citta but Sujin said that even developed insight now > can understand it (to some degree).The gist of what she was > saying is that otherwise it would seem like seeing and hearing, > for example, blended into each other (because there is no gap > between cittas) but panna (insight) sees that this is not so. > Also upon awakening from deep sleep if sati arises the > difference between bhavanga and the sense door and minddoor > processes can be known. "We" could never see these matters but > it is the function of panna to do its duty and understand." best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Robert, > > You wrote to Ken re the object of Bhavanga Citta > > "We can't know what it is, though." > > I wonder how there could be awareness of a citta with an unknowable > object. > > All the best > > Herman 9353 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Dear Robert, Thank you for that. I have read the entire post you referred to, and I wonder if the following statement is a correct paraphrase. The bhavanga citta has an unknowable object but a knowable associated feeling with it. So when there is some sort of feeling and no object of awaraness, you're dealing with bhavanga citta Thanks in advance Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- > Dear Herman, > Good question. There is a post about this: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6585 > I wrote: Paramattha dhammas arise and fall > > according to their nature. However, they arise and fall in > > processes. In between each process there are bhavanga cittas > > (the same cittas that arise and fall continually during deep > > sleep). In a sense they are the cushioning area between > > processes. > > I just heard on a tape someoone say to Acharn sujin that only > > the buddha and wise disciple like sariputta could really know > > bhavanga citta but Sujin said that even developed insight now > > can understand it (to some degree).The gist of what she was > > saying is that otherwise it would seem like seeing and hearing, > > for example, blended into each other (because there is no gap > > between cittas) but panna (insight) sees that this is not so. > > Also upon awakening from deep sleep if sati arises the > > difference between bhavanga and the sense door and minddoor > > processes can be known. "We" could never see these matters but > > it is the function of panna to do its duty and understand." > > best wishes > robert > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > You wrote to Ken re the object of Bhavanga Citta > > > > "We can't know what it is, though." > > > > I wonder how there could be awareness of a citta with an unknowable > > object. > > > > All the best > > > > Herman 9354 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thank you for that. > > I have read the entire post you referred to, and I wonder if the > following statement is a correct paraphrase. > > The bhavanga citta has an unknowable object but a knowable associated > feeling with it. So when there is some sort of feeling and no object > of awaraness, you're dealing with bhavanga citta > > Thanks in advance > > > Herman ++++++++++++++ Thanks for considering this difficult topic Herman. Sati and panna can know bhavanga citta and - as you say they can know the feeling associated with it - and when they do know either of these then they are the objects of awareness. Only panna can really know whether there was genuine awareness, or whether it is just thinking about these matters. Sometimes it seems like we know directly and then we find out that thinking had slipped in. I think it is like you say - bhavanga is known because it doesn't appear to have any object (that can be known) unlike the sense door and minddoor processes. best wishes robert > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > > --- > > Dear Herman, > > Good question. There is a post about this: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6585 > > I wrote: Paramattha dhammas arise and fall > > > according to their nature. However, they arise and fall in > > > processes. In between each process there are bhavanga cittas > > > (the same cittas that arise and fall continually during deep > > > sleep). In a sense they are the cushioning area between > > > processes. > > > I just heard on a tape someoone say to Acharn sujin that only > > > the buddha and wise disciple like sariputta could really know > > > bhavanga citta but Sujin said that even developed insight now > > > can understand it (to some degree).The gist of what she was > > > saying is that otherwise it would seem like seeing and hearing, > > > for example, blended into each other (because there is no gap > > > between cittas) but panna (insight) sees that this is not so. > > > Also upon awakening from deep sleep if sati arises the > > > difference between bhavanga and the sense door and minddoor > > > processes can be known. "We" could never see these matters but > > > it is the function of panna to do its duty and understand." > > > > best wishes > > robert > > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > > > > > You wrote to Ken re the object of Bhavanga Citta > > > > > > "We can't know what it is, though." > > > > > > I wonder how there could be awareness of a citta with an > unknowable > > > object. > > > > > > All the best > > > > > > Herman 9355 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Dear Robert, Thanks again. On a slightly different topic, you may be able to help me with an issue that has occupied me for some time. I will write in the conventional format, without trying to keep notions of self out of it. When I sit, something that I do as a little warm-up is to rotate attention to all the senses. When I intend to attend to hearing, there is hearing. When I intend to attend to seeing, there is seeing. When I intend to attend to thinking there is thinking. Now, when there is attention to seeing, there is seeing but it appears that there is no hearing, and when attention is diverted to hearing, there is hearing and there appears to be no seeing. The cittavithi way of looking at things says there is only ever one citta arising at any time. I am tempted to think that there are cittas arising at all the sense doors and mind door all the time, and that attention determines what one is aware of, and that intention is the determining factor in what attention will be paid to at any given time. I think there is a vast ocean of unknown things within "experience" by virtue of the limits of attention. The intention to be aware of certain things will illuminate those things further, but always at the cost of becoming unaware of everything attention is not being paid to. I would be very happy to receive your comments, Robert (any one else's as well, of course) All the very best Herman 9356 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi Robert K, Thanks for the explanation. A bit out of the Buddhism, this sounds like our genetic codes :). With thanks again Ken O --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > ---Dear Ken, > Comments below: > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Robert K > > > > Much thanks. > > > > "As we have seen (Ch. 10) the patisandhi-citta experiences the same > > > object as the akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising shortly > before > > > the cuti-citta of the previous life. If akusala kamma is going to > > > produce the patisandhi-citta, akusala cittas arise shortly before > the > > > cuti-citta and they experience an unpleasant object. If kusala > kamma > > > is going to produce the patisandhi-citta, kusala cittas arise > shortly > > > before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. > Whatever > > > the object is, the patisandhi-citta of the next life experiences > the > > > same object" > > > > k: Let say if before we sleep we have kusala cittas, would that > mean that > > the bhavanga cittas also have such wholesome objects. > ++++++++++++++ > > The bhavanga cittas always take the same object - that which appeared > shortly before death. In the case of humans this object is always a > pleasant one (conditioned by good kamma done in the previous life or > in some other past life). We can't know what it is, though. > ++++++++ > > > > > > > "The patisandhi-citta is succeeded by the first bhavanga-citta of > that > > > life and this citta experiences the same object as the patisandhi- > > > citta. Moreover, all bhavanga-cittas of that life experience that > > > object" > > > > k: Does this sentence imply that bhavanga citta object does not > change at > > all in one life time. > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++ > > > That is right. The same object is taken again and again . > best wishes > robert > > > > > > > With thanks > > Ken O > 9357 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas -- Dear Herman, I think this type of investigation and consideration is most appropriate. If we can do it without trying to get a result but rather to compare it with what we have heard from the Dhamma then it can certainly show us much. As you noted if there is attention to any of the senses then, sure enough, we find that something is happening at whatever sense that may be. You suggest that it could be that this is because there are cittas arising simultaneously at the different doors but that attention can only "take in" one door at a time. This goes against the abhidhamma theory that says only one citta arises at a time in a series. As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a stickler for the reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe the reason for the phenomena you note is the speed of the arising and passing of cittas. So that, in a split second there could have been thousands of processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, touching, tasting, etc. It happens so fast that it seems to blur together. I think the only way to be absolutely sure is to develop enough wisdom to see which theory is right. I believe that this can be done. best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thanks again. On a slightly different topic, you may be able to help > me with an issue that has occupied me for some time. > > I will write in the conventional format, without trying to keep > notions of self out of it. > > When I sit, something that I do as a little warm-up is to rotate > attention to all the senses. When I intend to attend to hearing, > there is hearing. When I intend to attend to seeing, there is seeing. > When I intend to attend to thinking there is thinking. > > Now, when there is attention to seeing, there is seeing but it > appears that there is no hearing, and when attention is diverted to > hearing, there is hearing and there appears to be no seeing. > > The cittavithi way of looking at things says there is only ever one > citta arising at any time. > > I am tempted to think that there are cittas arising at all the sense > doors and mind door all the time, and that attention determines what > one is aware of, and that intention is the determining factor in what > attention will be paid to at any given time. > > I think there is a vast ocean of unknown things within "experience" > by virtue of the limits of attention. The intention to be aware of > certain things will illuminate those things further, but always at > the cost of becoming unaware of everything attention is not being > paid to. > > I would be very happy to receive your comments, Robert (any one > else's as well, of course) > > All the very best > > > Herman 9358 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala Hi Christine, My inclinations it that since when one goes forth to lead the holy life, one's goal is to liberate oneself first and foremost. Hence practises like medicine could distract one holy life goal. To me if one practise medicine, one need a lot of concentration esp surgery. This to me is not the right practise for one that has gone forth to lead the holy life. The above could sound bias but if one leave the layman life, why involved again. Helping others in medicines, or material is only temporary assisting the other, helping others through imparting dhamma and they liberated themselves is a very worthwhile effort. Thus personally my view is that monks objective is to liberate themselves, leave the layman stuff to layman and then along their path of liberation, help others by imparting the dhamma. A second way to look at it, why Buddha exhort effort in liberating oneself before all else for those who lead the holy life. Kind regards Ken O --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hi everyone, > Just a few questions on: > Restraint of the Sense Faculties verse 64: (p.38) The Discourse on > the Fruits of Reclusehip > > "And how, great king, does the bhikkhu guard the doors of his sense > faculties? Herein, great king, having seen a form with the eye, the > bhikkhu does not grasp at the sign or the details. Since, if he were > to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye, evil > unwholesome states such as covetousness and grief might assail him, > he practises restraint, guards the faculty of the eye, and achieves > restraint over the faculty of the eye." and so on and so forth, for > ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. > > 'guard the doors of his sense faculties' - How does one > continuously do this? The thing I have noticed about these 'doors' > is that they may - (but I don't perceive them to) - open in an > orderly fashion one after another so one can deal with what attempts > to enter.......... Right now, I can feel my fingers and wrists are on > the keyboard, the chair under my thighs and clothes and jewellry on > my body, my feet in my shoes on the floor, my eyes are looking at the > cursor and printing appearing on the screen - but also can see with > my peripheral vision the book shelves above the computer, and the > curtains and carpet, whiteboard on the wall - I can hear the humming > of the computer, the crickets and frogs outside the windows, smell > the wet, earthy scent of garden, grass and eucalypt leaves after > rain, and the fragrance of tea in the cup on the side-table, the > taste of the last mouthful in my mouth. And there are probably a lot > of things that aren't registering, because I'm not that sensitised > or practised yet.... > To 'not grasp at the sign or details' would surely require that the > object be identified and screened in some way for 'wholesomeness' in > the first place? > How does one survive in the everyday world - fulfil whatever duties > are necessary - and not be swamped by incoming sense impressions? > Awareness would still require sweeping over the other sense faculties > to check out what was happening, or, perhaps, choosing only one sense > faculty to concentrate on more fully?...block out some of the > others?.......The mind often does that of its own accord anyway, > daydreaming and not noticing anything else for some time. Wouldn't > it be easier to sit, close the eyes, and watch the breath. Reduces > the number of visual objects at least, and fosters/forces > concentration..........But that can't be done while going about my > daily business, either. > > "Unwholesome" I can understand, but doesn't it seem a little harsh to > say grief is "evil"? Evil in the usual sense of 'wicked, heinous, or > sinful' would seem to imply a 'deliberate intention' - no-one would > *intend* or *desire* to feel grief.......(maybe cause someone else > grief, but not to themselves). > > Such a small verse, such voluminous questions, I begin to understand > how the commentaries grew exponentially. > metta, > Christine 9359 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Hi Christine, My time on line is really limited, but I just wanted to say that I think your post is excellent. Personally I'm very cautious with the word/concept 'love' and have never liked' 'loving kindness' for mettaa. Still I agree with the principles you've outlined here, with the exception of 'loving others--loving ourselves'--in this regard I much prefer the 'it is better to know the truth rather than just what is comforting'--fortunately I don't think there's anything so comforting than the truth--aka the Dhamma. Thank you, Ma'am, mike --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, Ranil, Mike and All, > > Regarding not directing metta towards > oneself..............Let me say > up-front that I know I have a warped perspective on > the world from > daily working with the suffering, angry, excluded > and unloved in my > area. (Sometimes, it is difficult not to want to > throw it all in and > become an Interior Decorator or Plant Retailer - > carpets, curtains > and plants don't do reprehensible things to each > other.) > However, having said that, it is better to know the > truth rather than > just what is comforting. And I am sorry to come in > very late on this > topic......... > One way I am using for not becoming emotionally > bankrupt (burnt out) > is the practice of the Brahma Viharas, in particular > Loving > Kindness........"I will abide pervading one quarter > with a mind > imbued with lovingkiness, likewise the second, > likewise the third, > likewise the fourth; So above and below, around and > everywhere and > to all as to myself. I will abide pervading the > all-encompassing > world with a mind imbued with > lovingkindness...abundant, exalted, > immeasurable, without hostility and without > ill-will."(and the same > for compassion, gladness, and equanimity.) Found in > the lovely > English chant of the Brahma Viharas at > www.vipassana.com/audio_files/bvra.html > I have always felt the essential foundation for > being able to offer > genuine love to others is that we truly love > ourselves. I have read > the 'Useful files' on this topic and found them > educational but...... > Does the Buddha in the Metta Sutta include sotto > voce "but not > including oneself" after 'all beings' and after > 'omitting none': > "Wishing: In gladness and in safety, > May all beings be at ease. > Whatever living beings there may be; > Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, > The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, > The seen and the unseen, > Those living near and far away, > Those born and to-be-born, > May all beings be at ease!" > > In the Visuddhi Magga X 40-43 the text seems to > support the > radiating of metta "to all as to myself" without > discrimination. > "Then he should break down the barriers by > practising lovingkindness > over and over again, accomplishing mental > impartiality towards the > four persons, that is to say, himself, the dear > person, the neutral > person and the hosile person." > Any comments would be most welcome, but I will > understand if there > is 'subject fatique'. > metta, > Christine > 9360 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > Dear Christine, > Do we really need to love ourselves anymore? Im not sure, do many of us really love ourselves?.....Is selfishness, self-centredness, which is in all of us to some extent, love? I think that might be the problem...Perhaps lack of common definitions get in the way....What is love? I don't know if it is a common universal value/ideal. Love has numerous meanings in most languages and cultures. Eros, philia, agape, metta........ Don't you think love is, by its very nature, unity? and, if you have feelings of self-loathing, wouldn't those feelings of self-loathing inevitably become part of your relationship with the loved one/s, and therefore contaminate what you radiate during metta practice? Christine > quote from the visuddhimagga shows that we should think of others > with as much consideration and care as our GREATLY loved self. And do > we really feel that to our friends and the people we meet, or are > they a tad less important than our own feelings? The visuddhimagga > IX10 notes that one should develop it towards ourself by considering > that "just as I want to live and dread pain etc. so do other beings" > making himself the example then desire for other beings welfare and > happiness arise". > It is true that if we are very unhappy then metta is hard to arise. > However, at those times it may be that other ways of samatha such as > Buddhanusati are more appropriate as these cause the arising of > pleasant thoughts. > In the Cariya-pitaka- athakatha (see bodhi net of views p323) it > says "The destruction of self-love and the development of love for > others are the means for the accomplishing of the paramis". > robert 9361 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 0:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala/KenO Dear Ken, That's an interesting point. Makes sense to me. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > My inclinations it that since when one goes forth to lead the holy life, > one's goal is to liberate oneself first and foremost. Hence practises > like medicine could distract one holy life goal. To me if one practise > medicine, one need a lot of concentration esp surgery. This to me is not > the right practise for one that has gone forth to lead the holy life. The > above could sound bias but if one leave the layman life, why involved > again. Helping others in medicines, or material is only temporary > assisting the other, helping others through imparting dhamma and they > liberated themselves is a very worthwhile effort. Thus personally my view > is that monks objective is to liberate themselves, leave the layman stuff > to layman and then along their path of liberation, help others by > imparting the dhamma. > > A second way to look at it, why Buddha exhort effort in liberating oneself > before all else for those who lead the holy life. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 9362 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation I agree, Christine. I would think that to love yourself and others would be very different from the kind of self-involvement, self-promotion, etc., that refers only to the ego and its insecurities. That is not love. Love would mean to honor and appreciate one's 'being' or 'awareness', not the temporary entity, but the spiritual quality that is one's real nature. This is the same in self and other, as it is impersonal, and by loving it in ourselves, we recognize it and love it in others. When Jesus said, 'Love your neighbor as yourself', it pointed in the same direction. It means that you see all people as being the recipient of metta, and oneself is included too -- almost as if you were someone other than yourself. Robert Ep. ============================== --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Robert, > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > Do we really need to love ourselves anymore? > > Im not sure, do many of us really love ourselves?.....Is selfishness, > self-centredness, which is in all of us to some extent, love? I think > that might be the problem...Perhaps lack of common definitions get in > the way....What is love? I don't know if it is a common universal > value/ideal. Love has numerous meanings in most languages and > cultures. Eros, philia, agape, metta........ > Don't you think love is, by its very nature, unity? and, if you have > feelings of self-loathing, wouldn't those feelings of self-loathing > inevitably become part of your relationship with the loved one/s, and > therefore contaminate what you radiate during metta practice? > > Christine > > > quote from the visuddhimagga shows that we should think of others > > with as much consideration and care as our GREATLY loved self. And > do > > we really feel that to our friends and the people we meet, or are > > they a tad less important than our own feelings? The visuddhimagga > > IX10 notes that one should develop it towards ourself by > considering > > that "just as I want to live and dread pain etc. so do other > beings" > > making himself the example then desire for other beings welfare and > > happiness arise". > > It is true that if we are very unhappy then metta is hard to arise. > > However, at those times it may be that other ways of samatha such > as > > Buddhanusati are more appropriate as these cause the arising of > > pleasant thoughts. > > In the Cariya-pitaka- athakatha (see bodhi net of views p323) it > > says "The destruction of self-love and the development of love for > > others are the means for the accomplishing of the paramis". > > robert 9363 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala/KenO Hi, Christine and Ken. I prefer to think that different lifestyles are appropriate for different people in different stages. For some becoming a monk or recluse and focussing totally on discernment is the right thing at a particular point. For someone else, this would just be an affectation or a form of increased suffering. To be discerning in the midst of family life or surgery, is ultimately the same thing as leading the 'holy life'. What's more important is that it serves the individual's capacity and predilection so that they are most free to practice mindfulness. Best, Robert Ep. --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Ken, > > That's an interesting point. Makes sense to me. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > My inclinations it that since when one goes forth to lead the holy > life, > > one's goal is to liberate oneself first and foremost. Hence > practises > > like medicine could distract one holy life goal. To me if one > practise > > medicine, one need a lot of concentration esp surgery. This to me > is not > > the right practise for one that has gone forth to lead the holy > life. The > > above could sound bias but if one leave the layman life, why > involved > > again. Helping others in medicines, or material is only temporary > > assisting the other, helping others through imparting dhamma and > they > > liberated themselves is a very worthwhile effort. Thus personally > my view > > is that monks objective is to liberate themselves, leave the layman > stuff > > to layman and then along their path of liberation, help others by > > imparting the dhamma. > > > > A second way to look at it, why Buddha exhort effort in liberating > oneself > > before all else for those who lead the holy life. > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O 9364 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala Dear Ken O, Christine & Suan, I tend to agree with the sentiments in Ken O’s post (at the end). Yeterday I was looking for a particular reference at the back of my mind on this topic of the Bhikkhu’s way of life (which I didn’t find), but came across the following interesting story and reference: This is all taken from Book of Discipline, Part 4, MahavaggaV111 <300>, transl by Miss Horner. The Buddha and Ananda visited some monks and whilst visiting their ‘lodgings’ came across a monk, suffering from dysentery and ‘lying fallen in his own excrements’. The Buddha asks why the other monks don’t ‘tend’ him and he replies that he’s ‘no use to them’. The Buddha tells Ananda to get water and bathe him and then together they put him on a couch. Afterwards the Buddha addresses the monks and says: ‘Monks, you have not a mother, you have not a father who might tend you. If you, monks, do not tend one another, then who is there who will tend you? Whoever, monks, would tend me, he should tend the sick....If he has neither a preceptor nor a teacher nor one who shares a dwelling-place nor a pupil nor a fellow-preceptor nor a fellow-teacher, he should be tended by the Order. If it should not tend him, there is an offence of wrong-doing.’ This is followed by an interesting passage (and reminders for us all) as to what makes a good patient and a difficult patient which I’ll quote separately if anyone wishes. More relevant, however, is the next quote as to when it is appropriate to tend the sick (as told to these monks) which follows a passage of when it is not appropriate: “Endowed with five qualities, monks, is one who tends the sick fit to tend the sick: he comes to be competent to provide the medicine; he knows what is beneficial and what is not beneficial; he takes away what is not beneficial, he brings forward what is beneficial; he tends the sick (from) amity of mind , not in the hope of gain , he does not become one who loathes to remove excrement or urine or sweat or vomit; he comes to be competent to gladden..delight the sick from time to time with dhamma-talk. Endowed with these five qualities, monks, is one who tends the sick fit to tend the sick.” I think the point about ‘not in the hope of gain’ is important, especially for the monk. I’m also not at all sure that it would be ‘appropriate’ for a monk to follow areas of interest outside the Teachings as hobbies but I’m really not versed enough in the Vinaya to say more. Some of the other reminders such as tending the sick with metta and dhamma talk (and without dosa to the ‘messes’) are useful for us all;-) Best regards, Sarah --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > My inclinations it that since when one goes forth to lead the holy life, > one's goal is to liberate oneself first and foremost. Hence practises > like medicine could distract one holy life goal. To me if one practise > medicine, one need a lot of concentration esp surgery. This to me is not > the right practise for one that has gone forth to lead the holy life. The > above could sound bias but if one leave the layman life, why involved > again. Helping others in medicines, or material is only temporary > assisting the other, helping others through imparting dhamma and they > liberated themselves is a very worthwhile effort. Thus personally my view > is that monks objective is to liberate themselves, leave the layman stuff > to layman and then along their path of liberation, help others by > imparting the dhamma. > > A second way to look at it, why Buddha exhort effort in liberating oneself > before all else for those who lead the holy life. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 9365 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Robert, Can't get any straighter than that. I sincerely appreciate your reply. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > -- > > Dear Herman, > I think this type of investigation and consideration is most > appropriate. > If we can do it without trying to get a result but rather to compare > it with what we have heard from the Dhamma then it can certainly show > us much. > > As you noted if there is attention to any of the senses then, sure > enough, we find that something is happening at whatever sense that > may be. You suggest that it could be that this is because there are > cittas arising simultaneously at the different doors but that > attention can only "take in" one door at a time. This goes against > the abhidhamma theory that says only one citta arises at a time in a > series. > As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a stickler for the > reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe the reason for the > phenomena you note is the speed of the arising and passing of cittas. > So that, in a split second there could have been thousands of > processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, touching, tasting, etc. It > happens so fast that it seems to blur together. > I think the only way to be absolutely sure is to develop enough > wisdom to see which theory is right. I believe that this can be done. > best wishes > robert > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > Thanks again. On a slightly different topic, you may be able to > help > > me with an issue that has occupied me for some time. > > > > I will write in the conventional format, without trying to keep > > notions of self out of it. > > > > When I sit, something that I do as a little warm-up is to rotate > > attention to all the senses. When I intend to attend to hearing, > > there is hearing. When I intend to attend to seeing, there is > seeing. > > When I intend to attend to thinking there is thinking. > > > > Now, when there is attention to seeing, there is seeing but it > > appears that there is no hearing, and when attention is diverted to > > hearing, there is hearing and there appears to be no seeing. > > > > The cittavithi way of looking at things says there is only ever one > > citta arising at any time. > > > > I am tempted to think that there are cittas arising at all the > sense > > doors and mind door all the time, and that attention determines > what > > one is aware of, and that intention is the determining factor in > what > > attention will be paid to at any given time. > > > > I think there is a vast ocean of unknown things within "experience" > > by virtue of the limits of attention. The intention to be aware of > > certain things will illuminate those things further, but always at > > the cost of becoming unaware of everything attention is not being > > paid to. > > > > I would be very happy to receive your comments, Robert (any one > > else's as well, of course) > > > > All the very best > > > > > > Herman 9366 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Dear Ken O, I was rather confused by your last comments on seeing, but I think Num has helped with this, so I'll leave it for now. --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah Sarah: > "As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or Buddha ‘sees’, there > cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas." .................... Ken O: > As each successive cittas conditioned the next, there is still the ability > to cognize even when one is Buddha just the Buddha could cognize it with > perfect clarity and with reality. >I tend to believe that panna is there > just that our panna is not strong to be manifested unlike Buddha. Without > such panna accompanying, Buddha would not known what is vipaka cittas and > how it works and its speed etc.... ................... I fully agree that no comparison can be made between any beginnings of panna that we experience and the omniscient panna of the Buddha which understood all realities precisely, including vipaka and so on. Still, to be very precise (as he explained in the Abhidhamma), panna can still only arise with certain cittas and does not last even for the Buddha. To get very precise, there are either 89 or 121 kinds of consciousness (depending on jhana cittas). Wisdom can accompany only 47 or 89 of these kinds. To quote from the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, compendium of Mental Factors, 15: 'Wisdom goes into combination with 47 types of consciousness - namely, the twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with knowledge, and all the 35 sublime and supramundane types of consciousness 912 +35 =47)' ,end quote> There are 18 types of consciousness which don't have root (hetu) and of these 15 are vipaka cittas, including seeing consciousnes x2, hearing consciousness x2 and so on. These ahetuka (non root) cittas are never accompanied by wisdom (or any other 'beautiful' cetasikas), not even for the Buddha. I can make it even more detailed if you like. Others, sorry to sound so mathematical;-) (actually, Howard, the abhidhamma should suit you very well in this regard;-) Let me know if this still isn't clear, Sarah 9367 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] meththa meditation --- Good points, Christine. I think this shows that we need to know what the characteristic of real metta is. Surely self-centeredness is not metta. To me it seems easier to undestand metta when it is present towards neutral people. And when I think how much I wish others to like me then I can feel the same to them. On the question of self-loathing and self-hatred: I've always wondered what this means when people talk about them. I know very well feelings of remorse and shame - but these still seem tied up with self love because I wanted the self to be better. I would like to hear more about this. Many defilements interfere with metta. If one has strong conceit then this will hinder metta, or strong attachment, or stinginess. When dosa arises toward someone this is another time when metta has the opportunity to arise. It can arise because the unpleasant feeling reminds one that dosa is present and that it is ugly, then one can adjust ones thinking so that metta arises instead. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > Do we really need to love ourselves anymore? > > Im not sure, do many of us really love ourselves?.....Is selfishness, > self-centredness, which is in all of us to some extent, love? I think > that might be the problem...Perhaps lack of common definitions get in > the way....What is love? I don't know if it is a common universal > value/ideal. Love has numerous meanings in most languages and > cultures. Eros, philia, agape, metta........ > Don't you think love is, by its very nature, unity? and, if you have > feelings of self-loathing, wouldn't those feelings of self-loathing > inevitably become part of your relationship with the loved one/s, and > therefore contaminate what you radiate during metta practice? > > Christine > > > quote from the visuddhimagga shows that we should think of others > > with as much consideration and care as our GREATLY loved self. And > do > > we really feel that to our friends and the people we meet, or are > > they a tad less important than our own feelings? The visuddhimagga > > IX10 notes that one should develop it towards ourself by > considering > > that "just as I want to live and dread pain etc. so do other > beings" > > making himself the example then desire for other beings welfare and > > happiness arise". > > It is true that if we are very unhappy then metta is hard to arise. > > However, at those times it may be that other ways of samatha such > as > > Buddhanusati are more appropriate as these cause the arising of > > pleasant thoughts. > > In the Cariya-pitaka- athakatha (see bodhi net of views p323) it > > says "The destruction of self-love and the development of love for > > others are the means for the accomplishing of the paramis". > > robert 9368 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Hi all, Just a quick question thrown in here. Ken O says each citta conditions the next one. Does this mean that a vipaka citta is again creating kamma ? (please say no, I couldn't bear the endless hall of mirrors that would otherwise follow :-) No problems with Maths ( I am surprised a girl could be any good at it :-) ) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Ken O, > > I was rather confused by your last comments on seeing, but I think Num has > helped with this, so I'll leave it for now. > > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Sarah: > "As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or Buddha `sees', there > > cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas." > > .................... > > Ken O: > As each successive cittas conditioned the next, there is still the > ability > > to cognize even when one is Buddha just the Buddha could cognize it with > > perfect clarity and with reality. > > >I tend to believe that panna is there > > just that our panna is not strong to be manifested unlike Buddha. Without > > such panna accompanying, Buddha would not known what is vipaka cittas and > > how it works and its speed etc.... > ................... > > I fully agree that no comparison can be made between any beginnings of panna > that we experience and the omniscient panna of the Buddha which understood all > realities precisely, including vipaka and so on. Still, to be very precise (as > he explained in the Abhidhamma), panna can still only arise with certain cittas > and does not last even for the Buddha. > > To get very precise, there are either 89 or 121 kinds of consciousness > (depending on jhana cittas). Wisdom can accompany only 47 or 89 of these > kinds. > To quote from the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, compendium of Mental Factors, 15: > > 'Wisdom goes into combination with 47 types of consciousness - namely, the > twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with knowledge, and all > the 35 sublime and supramundane types of consciousness 912 +35 =47)' ,end > quote> > > There are 18 types of consciousness which don't have root (hetu) and of these > 15 are vipaka cittas, including seeing consciousnes x2, hearing consciousness > x2 and so on. These ahetuka (non root) cittas are never accompanied by wisdom > (or any other 'beautiful' cetasikas), not even for the Buddha. I can make it > even more detailed if you like. > > Others, sorry to sound so mathematical;-) (actually, Howard, the abhidhamma > should suit you very well in this regard;-) > > Let me know if this still isn't clear, > Sarah 9369 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi, Robert - I would like to address myself to one point you make, a point I have seen before and which continues to perplex me. In a message dated 11/18/01 12:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a stickler for the > reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe the reason for the > phenomena you note is the speed of the arising and passing of cittas. > So that, in a split second there could have been thousands of > processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, touching, tasting, etc. It > happens so fast that it seems to blur together. > =========================== It seems to blur together to *whom* or to *what*? In Abhidhamma, that which is doing the knowing are the individual cittas. Each citta knows its object. WHAT can be seeing the "blur". It seems to me that this notion is based on our conventional observation of things such as our observing of a torch being moved in a circle, and "we" see a circle of fire, or our looking at a movie screen and seeing continuity instead of a sequence of frames. But at the level of "abhidhammic reality" each individual citta is seeing a single object, and there IS NO overarching something to be seeing a "blur". Do you follow my problem here? (There seems to be a conflation going on here.) The individual dhamma/citta view just doesn't seem to adequately explain actual experience. And when the theory also posits cittas (the bhavanga cittas), which all have the very same object, but it is an object of awareness not possible to be aware of (!), so that we have unaware moments of awareness ;-), the theory becomes all the more an ad hoc, strained one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9370 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing --- Dear Herman , This question relates to the three rounds of vipaka, kilesa and kamma. There are some posts in the files about this For example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5336 best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., hhofman@d... wrote: > Hi all, > > Just a quick question thrown in here. > > Ken O says each citta conditions the next one. > > Does this mean that a vipaka citta is again creating kamma ? (please > say no, I couldn't bear the endless hall of mirrors that would > otherwise follow :-) > > No problems with Maths ( I am surprised a girl could be any good at > it :-) ) > > All the best > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Ken O, > > > > I was rather confused by your last comments on seeing, but I think > Num has > > helped with this, so I'll leave it for now. > > > > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > > Sarah: > "As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or > Buddha `sees', there > > > cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas." > > > > .................... > > > > Ken O: > As each successive cittas conditioned the next, there is > still the > > ability > > > to cognize even when one is Buddha just the Buddha could cognize > it with > > > perfect clarity and with reality. > > > > >I tend to believe that panna is there > > > just that our panna is not strong to be manifested unlike > Buddha. Without > > > such panna accompanying, Buddha would not known what is vipaka > cittas and > > > how it works and its speed etc.... > > ................... > > > > I fully agree that no comparison can be made between any beginnings > of panna > > that we experience and the omniscient panna of the Buddha which > understood all > > realities precisely, including vipaka and so on. Still, to be very > precise (as > > he explained in the Abhidhamma), panna can still only arise with > certain cittas > > and does not last even for the Buddha. > > > > To get very precise, there are either 89 or 121 kinds of > consciousness > > (depending on jhana cittas). Wisdom can accompany only 47 or 89 > of these > > kinds. > > To quote from the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, compendium of Mental > Factors, 15: > > > > 'Wisdom goes into combination with 47 types of consciousness - > namely, the > > twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with > knowledge, and all > > the 35 sublime and supramundane types of consciousness 912 +35 > =47)' ,end > > quote> > > > > There are 18 types of consciousness which don't have root (hetu) > and of these > > 15 are vipaka cittas, including seeing consciousnes x2, hearing > consciousness > > x2 and so on. These ahetuka (non root) cittas are never accompanied > by wisdom > > (or any other 'beautiful' cetasikas), not even for the Buddha. I > can make it > > even more detailed if you like. > > > > Others, sorry to sound so mathematical;-) (actually, Howard, the > abhidhamma > > should suit you very well in this regard;-) > > > > Let me know if this still isn't clear, > > Sarah 9371 From: Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Hi, Herman - In a message dated 11/18/01 5:05:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@d... writes: > Hi all, > > Just a quick question thrown in here. > > Ken O says each citta conditions the next one. > > Does this mean that a vipaka citta is again creating kamma ? (please > say no, I couldn't bear the endless hall of mirrors that would > otherwise follow :-) > > No problems with Maths ( I am surprised a girl could be any good at > it :-) ) > > All the best > > Herman > ============================ As you may be well aware of, I have considerable reservations about some basic abhidhammic concepts. But I think I can reply to this question (not necessarily correctly, of course ;-) without at the same time "buying into" anything. There *is*, I believe, a valid distinction to be made between conditioning, in general, and kammic conditioning. One mental state/function can be a condition for the arising of and/or the features of a subsequent one, without the first state being an active state of volition, and without the conditioning being kammic in nature. If at one moment, for example, I see a blinding light (which, itself, could well be the fruition of kamma), that will certainly affect the nature of the immediately succeeding act of seeing, but the conditioning involved, the relationship between the two visual events, would, I suspect, not be a matter of *kammic* conditioning. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9372 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Hi Herman My understanding is that this conditioning is abt latent tendecies. If vipaka citta conditions the next citta then it should be the latent tendecies that are operative. Vipaka is a resultant cittas so that is no conditioning for the next kammic actions, but that does not mean that they cannot condition the next citta because of latent tendecies. The latent tendecies are hence carried to the next one. This is what I have understand so far from reading the Abidhammic texts, but maybe I wrong. Others could give you a better answers. Kind regards Ken O --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Hi all, > > Just a quick question thrown in here. > > Ken O says each citta conditions the next one. > > Does this mean that a vipaka citta is again creating kamma ? (please > say no, I couldn't bear the endless hall of mirrors that would > otherwise follow :-) > > No problems with Maths ( I am surprised a girl could be any good at > it :-) ) > > All the best > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Ken O, > > > > I was rather confused by your last comments on seeing, but I think > Num has > > helped with this, so I'll leave it for now. > > > > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > > Sarah: > "As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or > Buddha `sees', there > > > cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas." > > > > .................... > > > > Ken O: > As each successive cittas conditioned the next, there is > still the > > ability > > > to cognize even when one is Buddha just the Buddha could cognize > it with > > > perfect clarity and with reality. > > > > >I tend to believe that panna is there > > > just that our panna is not strong to be manifested unlike > Buddha. Without > > > such panna accompanying, Buddha would not known what is vipaka > cittas and > > > how it works and its speed etc.... > > ................... > > > > I fully agree that no comparison can be made between any beginnings > of panna > > that we experience and the omniscient panna of the Buddha which > understood all > > realities precisely, including vipaka and so on. Still, to be very > precise (as > > he explained in the Abhidhamma), panna can still only arise with > certain cittas > > and does not last even for the Buddha. > > > > To get very precise, there are either 89 or 121 kinds of > consciousness > > (depending on jhana cittas). Wisdom can accompany only 47 or 89 > of these > > kinds. > > To quote from the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, compendium of Mental > Factors, 15: > > > > 'Wisdom goes into combination with 47 types of consciousness - > namely, the > > twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with > knowledge, and all > > the 35 sublime and supramundane types of consciousness 912 +35 > =47)' ,end > > quote> > > > > There are 18 types of consciousness which don't have root (hetu) > and of these > > 15 are vipaka cittas, including seeing consciousnes x2, hearing > consciousness > > x2 and so on. These ahetuka (non root) cittas are never accompanied > by wisdom > > (or any other 'beautiful' cetasikas), not even for the Buddha. I > can make it > > even more detailed if you like. > > > > Others, sorry to sound so mathematical;-) (actually, Howard, the > abhidhamma > > should suit you very well in this regard;-) > > > > Let me know if this still isn't clear, > > Sarah 9373 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentary on Samannaphala/KenO Hi Robert Ep, Definitely everyone could lead the holy life, maybe I should be clearer, I talking abt monks. To me this sutta is geared more towards abt the being a monk rather than a layman perspective. Kind Regards Ken O --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi, Christine and Ken. > I prefer to think that different lifestyles are appropriate for > different people > in different stages. For some becoming a monk or recluse and focussing > totally on > discernment is the right thing at a particular point. For someone else, > this > would just be an affectation or a form of increased suffering. To be > discerning > in the midst of family life or surgery, is ultimately the same thing as > leading > the 'holy life'. What's more important is that it serves the > individual's > capacity and predilection so that they are most free to practice > mindfulness. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > Dear Ken, > > > > That's an interesting point. Makes sense to me. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > Hi Christine, > > > > > > My inclinations it that since when one goes forth to lead the holy > > life, > > > one's goal is to liberate oneself first and foremost. Hence > > practises > > > like medicine could distract one holy life goal. To me if one > > practise > > > medicine, one need a lot of concentration esp surgery. This to me > > is not > > > the right practise for one that has gone forth to lead the holy > > life. The > > > above could sound bias but if one leave the layman life, why > > involved > > > again. Helping others in medicines, or material is only temporary > > > assisting the other, helping others through imparting dhamma and > > they > > > liberated themselves is a very worthwhile effort. Thus personally > > my view > > > is that monks objective is to liberate themselves, leave the layman > > stuff > > > to layman and then along their path of liberation, help others by > > > imparting the dhamma. > > > > > > A second way to look at it, why Buddha exhort effort in liberating > > oneself > > > before all else for those who lead the holy life. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken O 9374 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > I would like to address myself to one point you make, a point I have > seen before and which continues to perplex me. In a message dated 11/18/01 > 12:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a stickler for the > > reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe the reason for the > > phenomena you note is the speed of the arising and passing of cittas. > > So that, in a split second there could have been thousands of > > processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, touching, tasting, etc. It > > happens so fast that it seems to blur together. > > > =========================== > It seems to blur together to *whom* or to *what*? In Abhidhamma, that > which is doing the knowing are the individual cittas. Each citta knows its > object. WHAT can be seeing the "blur". It seems to me that this notion is > based on our conventional observation of things such as our observing of a > torch being moved in a circle, and "we" see a circle of fire, or our looking > at a movie screen and seeing continuity instead of a sequence of frames. But > at the level of "abhidhammic reality" each individual citta is seeing a > single object, and there IS NO overarching something to be seeing a "blur". > Do you follow my problem here? (There seems to be a conflation going on > here.) The individual dhamma/citta view just doesn't seem to adequately > explain actual experience. > And when the theory also posits cittas (the bhavanga cittas), which > all have the very same object, but it is an object of awareness not possible > to be aware of (!), so that we have unaware moments of awareness ;- ), the > theory becomes all the more an ad hoc, strained one. > > With metta, > Howard >++++++++++++++ Dear Howard, Well my reply is that I think the theory explains the actual experience very well. The example of the movie screen is a reasonable analogy to explain how the moments are taken as a whole. Remember the individual moments don't come into existence out of nothing. Each one is conditioned by the previous one and hence there is continuity. The reason we can't see all this clearly is not a mystery it is because of ignorance, a most powerful force and conditioning factor that clouds vision.You ask "what can be seeing the blur"? Well avijja (ignorance) darts among what is unreal (people, beings, self) and does not dart among paramattha dhammas. Avijja is very real and is in a sense the 'overaching something' you ask about. It is only because we hear about these matters that curiosity arises and so there is the beginning of investigation (dhamma-vicaya) into the actual nature of this process. I would guess for one like Sariputta the distinction between cittas is as clear as the lines on my hand. Why? Because of developed wisdom. best wishes robert 9375 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Hi Sarah, Let us quote from Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VIII "Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa. When kilesa has not been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like sediment in the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise. All kilesa would be completely eradicated, never to arise again, when the lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the ariya-sacca-dhamma by experiencing the characteristics of nibbana according to the levels of the magga-citta, which completely eradicates kilesa according to the levels of the specific magga-citta." I was basing my argument on the function of latent tendecies in kilesa. To me panna accumulation is due to this function of latent tendecies. As one reach enlightment, such latent tendicies become Panna as all kilesa element will have been eradicated. That is how a Buddha could study each cittas with perfect clarity. Hence even though citta falls and rise instanteously, there is still latent tendecies of Panna. Since there is kilesa in each rise and fall citta of those who are not enlighted, why can't there be a latent tendecies of Panna that rise and fall, once one is enlighted. Kind regards Ken O --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Ken O, > > I was rather confused by your last comments on seeing, but I think Num > has > helped with this, so I'll leave it for now. > > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Sarah: > "As I mentioned recently, even when the arahat or Buddha > ‘sees’, there > > cannot be panna accompanying these vipaka cittas." > > .................... > > Ken O: > As each successive cittas conditioned the next, there is still > the ability to cognize even when one is Buddha just the Buddha could cognize it with perfect clarity and with reality. > > >I tend to believe that panna is there just that our panna is not strong to be manifested unlike Buddha. Without such panna accompanying, Buddha would not known what is vipaka cittas and how it works and its speed etc.... > ................... > > I fully agree that no comparison can be made between any beginnings of > panna that we experience and the omniscient panna of the Buddha which > understood all realities precisely, including vipaka and so on. Still, to be very precise (as he explained in the Abhidhamma), panna can still only arise with certain cittas and does not last even for the Buddha. > > To get very precise, there are either 89 or 121 kinds of consciousness > (depending on jhana cittas). Wisdom can accompany only 47 or 89 of > these > kinds. > To quote from the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, compendium of Mental Factors, > 15: > > 'Wisdom goes into combination with 47 types of consciousness - namely, > the > twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with knowledge, > and all > the 35 sublime and supramundane types of consciousness 912 +35 =47)' > ,end > quote> > > There are 18 types of consciousness which don't have root (hetu) and of > these > 15 are vipaka cittas, including seeing consciousnes x2, hearing > consciousness > x2 and so on. These ahetuka (non root) cittas are never accompanied by > wisdom > (or any other 'beautiful' cetasikas), not even for the Buddha. I can > make it > even more detailed if you like. > > Others, sorry to sound so mathematical;-) (actually, Howard, the > abhidhamma > should suit you very well in this regard;-) > > Let me know if this still isn't clear, > Sarah 9376 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana Rob (and Howard) Rob, thanks for this very pertinent quote, and my apologies for the delay in responding. I intersperse below, for comparison, the corresponding passage from the P. Masefield translation (PTS 2000). --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Howard and Jon, > From the Itivuttaka (no.38 PTS). > I use Nyanaponika's translation (wheel 251/253) > This was said by the Blessed one, sopken by the holy One , and > thus have I heard: > there are , o monks, two aspects of Nibbana; the Nibbana element > with the groups of existence still remainin > (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) and the Nibbana-element with no > groups remaining (anupadisesa -nibbana dhatu). > What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still > remaing? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is > taint free..but there still remain with him(until death) the > five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through > which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as > well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred > and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the > groups of existence still remaining. PM "On this one's part, it is the destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion that is spoken of as that nibbana-element that is with substrate-remnant." > And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In > that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer > relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. > This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence > remaining. endquote PM "On this one's part, all that is sensed right here, not being rejoiced in, will become cold; it is this that is spoken of as that nibbana-element that is without substrate-remnant." I am not sure if there is anything new here. I simply observe that what is being discussed is the 'nibbana-element', rather than, say, the citta that experiences that element, although obviously is a reference to one and the same moment. The first kind of nibbana-element is equated with the *destruction of lust, hatred and delusion*, the second with the *becoming cold of all that is sensed* after that destruction has occurred. There is a further passage in the PM translation, which I think is of a verse summarising the prose text of the sutta. This reads as follows-- "These two nibbana elements .. ; -- one element -- that with substrate-remnant, in which becoming's lead is totally destroyed -- pertains to these seen conditions here; -- that without substrate-remnant, wherein becomings entirely cease, pertains to the hereafter. Those whose hearts are liberated .. , being those for whom becoming's lead is totally destroyed, delight .. in destruction -- these constant ones abandon all becomings." Howard, I read the passage from Rob's post as confirming what you suggest in your reply to that post, namely the cessation of all sense-door functions and associated mind-door states. It is possible that is is also intended to include other mind-door moments; presumably the commentary would make this clear. The emphasis in the verse passage seems to be on the end of 'becoming' (ie. birth?). I take this to mean that the moment of death (cuti citta) is not followed by a moment of birth (patisandhi citta). As far as I know, the Pali texts take the matter no further than this, but I intend to keep an eye out for further relevant material. Jon 9377 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:43am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhammavicaya IV Ken O --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > > 4/ & 5/ > > I am not sure I see your point here, Ken. The Buddha is affirming the > > existence of suffering/a path but pointing out the non-existence of > any > > person who suffers/travels the path. You are then saying, if there is > > no person how can there be any suffering/path in the first place? > This > > seems to be a semantic argument rather than a substantive one. > Doesn't > it go against your own experience in life? > > > > I'm not sure if I have understood your points. Please let me know. > > > > Jon > > > k: When the verse imply that is no sufferer - to me it would imply that > we have understand reality. Then where is suffering to be found. On > one > hand we are talking abt anatta (no sufferer), on the other we are not > viewing suffering as anatta (suffering exist). To me this is an > incorrect > perspective. Both are anatta. When we say "there is pain but there is no-one who experiences pain", or "there is seeing but no-one who sees", we are saying that-- -- "painful feeling" and "seeing" are realities, they each have a characteristic that distinguishes one from the other (and that can be experienced by awareness/understanding) -- "person", however, is not a reality, it is a concept, and so cannot experience the pain or see; the reality that in fact experiences the pain or that sees is something other than what we take for "person". I am wondering which of these 2 statements you would not agree with, Ken. Jon 9378 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:45am Subject: Re:__[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > I suppose there are many reasons for having an interest in developing > the > > path. But a view as to a specific final goal of the spiritual path is > not > > essential to seeing the disadvantage in living forever in ignorance > and > > suffering. Indeed, if our interest in the dhamma is based on, for > > example, a desire for a happy rebirth, or a goal of attaining nibbana > as > > we conceive it to be, then I am inclined to think that understanding > the > > right path could be a very difficult task. > > Dear Jon, > Well we can agree on this for sure. And it is very hard to let go of > one's view > of what the path and nibbana consist of, no matter what our view may be. > I am > sure I am clinging pretty hard to mine. > > Best, > Robert Ep. Yes, we all cling to those concepts. Even one who does not consciously think of nibbana in terms of a goal would have such concepts and clinging. The job we face is to see those unwholesome realities for what they are, a job not helped by the fact that they remain latent for most of the time (even perhaps for an entire lifetime for some). Awareness of the presently appearing reality and the ensuing understanding has the function of gradually eroding even the most latent of akusala dhammas (unwholesome inherent tendencies). Only at moments of such awareness is this function being performed. Jon 9379 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha (was, Concepts) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks, Jon. I did enjoy those entries. > I would say, from reading those, that the word 'dukkha' is meant to > include all > experiences that have a quality of suffering or a tendency to create or > lead to > suffering in the present or future. So to follow your observation along, Rob, what experiences would you see falling within/outside that criterion? (If you get the feeling this is a test, you could just be right!) Jon > > From Nyanatiloka’s ‘Buddhist Dictionary’ at > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_d.htm > > > > ‘DUKKHA’ > > (1) 'pain', painful feeling, which may be bodily and mental (s. > vedaná). > > (2) 'Suffering', 'ill'. > > As the first of the Four Noble Truths and the second of the three > > characteristics of existence, the term dukkha is not limited to > painful > > experience as under (1), but refers to the unsatisfactory nature and > the > > general insecurity of all conditioned phenomena which, on account of > their > > impermanence, are all liable to suffering, and this includes also > > pleasurable experience. Hence 'unsatisfactoriness' or 'liability to > > suffering' would be more adequate renderings, if not for stylistic > > reasons. > > Hence the first truth does not deny the existence of pleasurable > > experience, as is sometimes wrongly assumed. > > This is illustrated by the following texts: > > "Seeking satisfaction in the world, monks, I had pursued my way. > That > > satisfaction in the world I found. In so far as satisfaction existed > in > > the world, I have well perceived it by wisdom. Seeking for misery in > the > > world, monks, I had pursued my way. That misery in the world I found. > In > > so far as misery existed in the world, I have well perceived it by > wisdom. > > Seeking for the escape from the world, monks, I had pursued my way. > That > > escape from the world I found. In so far as an escape from the world > > existed, I have well perceived it by wisdom" -- (A. 111, 101). > > "If there were no satisfaction to be found in the world, beings > would > > not be attached to the world .... If there were no misery to be found > in > > the world, beings would not be repelled by the world .... If there > were no > > escape from the world, beings could not escape therefrom" -- (A. 111, > > 102). > > > > > > ‘DUKKHATA’ > > (abstr. noun fr. dukkha): 'the state of suffering', painfulness, > > unpleasantness, the unsatisfactoriness of existence. > > "There are three kinds of suffering: > > (1) suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhatá), > > (2) the suffering inherent in the formations (sankhára-dukkhatá), > > (3) the suffering in change (viparináma-dukkhatá)" > > -- (S. XLV, 165; D. 33). > > > > (1) is the bodily or mental feeling of pain as actual]y felt. > > (2) refers to the oppressive nature of all formations of existence > (i.e. > > all conditioned phenomena), due to their continual arising and passing > > away; this includes also experiences associated with neutral feeling. > > (3) refers to bodily and mental pleasant feelings, "because they are > the > > cause for the arising of pain when they change" -- (Vis.M. XIV, 34f). > > > > 9380 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard/Rob Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thank you Jon. > That gives a concrete [nama v. rupa] hook for beginning to discern > cittas. > Very useful. > > This can be employed as a very good device whether one believes in the > 'single > unit citta' theory or not. Even with a continuous consciounsess, one > can look at > the characteristic of the mental or physical object. > > Best, > Robert Ep. According to my understanding, the characteristic of the mentality or materiality reality (nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma) is indeed there to be experienced, but is hidden because of our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. It can be experienced only, if at all, by a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by awareness (sati) of the level of satipatthana. However, again as I understand it, an intention/wish/motivation to experience that characteristic is not a determining factor in the equation. Only repeated listening to the teachings that explain the basis for such awareness, and much reflection on the meaning of those teachings, can condition the arising of that awareness. I agree with your observation, Rob, that one is not required to accept the teaching on 'single unit citta' in order to develop the conditions for the arising of such awareness, although a holding a definite view to the contrary would no doubt be a considerable obstacle to that development. Jon 9381 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention) is controllable? (was kusa Rob Ep (and Howard) Rob, I enjoyed your discussion below. Just one comment, if I may, on your remarks about the person who has an understanding of anicca, anatta and dukkha vs. the person who doesn't. I doubt that we can say that a purely theoretical understanding of anicca, anatta and dukkha could make any difference to the *quality* of a person's kusala mind-states. That person will still retain the idea of a person or thing as having those characteristics, in other words, the same innate views as before hearing about this aspect of the teachings, despite any conscious thought to the contrary, since only the development of satipatthana can expose and erode those views in any meaningful sense. On the other hand, if you are talking about a real level of understanding of those characteristics, this could only have been acquired by a developed understanding of realities as they are, and from seeing those characteristics as an attribute of these realities. This would be, as I understand it, an advanced level of vipassana (although I am aware that many schools of practice these days would consider it to be easily attainable). Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > This is the portion of Jon's good talk that also interested me quite a > bit. > > I would say that there is a difference between one who attempts to > cultivate > kusala states without the benefit of Buddhist understandings, and > someone who > attempts to realize the steps of the Eightfold Path with an > understanding of > anatta, anicca and dukkha. > > It is the clarity of these distinctions that gives the context for > Buddhist > cultivation. This in itself, I don't think, necessitates a view of the > 'real' > 8-fold path as supramundane, although it doesn't speak against that > possibility > either. > > I tend to think that all beings are striving in their own way for > liberation. > Everyone has a subconscious drive to end delusion and suffering, and > reach a place > of freedom. And at some point in their journey, they will find the > higher > principles that will allow them to actually achieve liberation. Is > there an > inherent difference between Buddhists and non-Buddhists? As 'beings', I > would say > there isn't. We're all in the same boat. But Buddhism allows one to go > beyond > the final illusions of a separate or permenant self or entity. > > Just because all spiritual people are trying to cultivate kusala, to me > neither > dictates that Buddhists and non-Buddhists are inherently different, or > inherently > the same. > > To me, the question remains as to whether there is volition in the path, > or > whether the Eight-Fold path is a set of factors that occur only in > Enlightenment. > It seems sensible to me to think that the various mundane cultivations > that > non-enlightened Buddhists do in order to increase their awareness and > see into > realities are the necessary steps that lead to reaping the benefits of > higher > stages, even if these higher stages include a different level of the > Eightfold > factors, and even if the earlier efforts are not in fact volitional but > only seem > that way. > > I apologize for this circuitous discussion that doesn't really reach any > conclusion. I also apologize for airing a few half-baked thoughts here > which may > not be very clear. For me, I would still like to know how the Arahats > who wrote > the commentaries derived their definition of the Noble Eightfold Path's > path-factors at the moment of enlightenment from the Suttas, but it > looks like I > will have to read the commentaries myself at some point and see for > myself, since > the connection seems to be implied rather than explicit. > > Does anyone know how to reach Bikkhu Bodhi? Perhaps I should ask him > what he > thinks about this. I'm just kidding. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 9382 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > As I understand it, for an > > > arahant, the khandas, and all dhammas for that matter, have "ceased" > in > > > the > > > sense that no separate, independent, self-sufficient dhammas are any > > > longer > > > to be observed. > > > > I'm not sure what this refers to, Howard. Would you mind giving a > > reference/explanation? Thanks. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I am thinking here in terms of an arahant's direct apprehension > of > patticasamupada as the "middle way". See, for example, the Kaccayangotta Sutta. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- I'm afraid I could not locate a reference to this sutta. The concept of dhammas that have been seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta as being dhammas that have 'ceased' is a new one for me. If you care to follow it further, I would be interested to hear more. > Howard: > The *speculation* as to whether "an arahant *choosing*, based on > compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an association with some > realm or > realms of experience" is a possibility is not, in itself, productive. > But the > *knowledge* of whether or not that is a possibility would be very > useful. For > example, some Mahayanists have expressed the notion that vowing, prior > to > being an arahant, to maintain such an association is necessary, and that > > without having already established, quite strongly, such an intention, > it is > too late to do so once one is an arahant. As regards myself, just on the > off > chance ;-)) that, beyond parinibbana, keeping some sort of connection > with a > samsaric realm is still possible, I have personally vowed (in my own > mind) to > make such a connection. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- I seem to recall that in the case of the true Bodhisatta vow, this can only be successfully made by one who would have attained enlightenment in that same lifetime, had the vow not been made. In other words, only a person who has developed understanding to the very brink of enlightenment can have any real concept of what it means to forego enlightenment for a higher goal. Would this have any relevance, I wonder, to the kind of vow that I believe the Mahayanist practitioner is encouraged to make? Jon 9383 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard/Rob --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I agree with your observation, Rob, that one is not required to accept the > teaching on 'single unit citta' in order to develop the conditions for the > arising of such awareness, although a holding a definite view to the > contrary would no doubt be a considerable obstacle to that development. > > Jon Perhaps the holding fast to any view would equally impede progress, since the reality itself is bound to be experienced differently than any prior view. Best, Robert Ep. 9384 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:03am Subject: Cambodia Ch 10, no 2 A. Sujin's Lectures in Cambodia. Question: Sati is a sobhana cetasika, it arises with kusala citta. Is it correct to say that sati can be aware of dosa, aversion, or another kind of akusala? Sujin: What is reality is true in every respect. Akusala is reality, but sati cannot be conascent with akusala citta; sati can arise afterwards and be aware of its characteristic. Akusala has arisen, if it had not arisen it could not appear. Akusala arises and falls away, but in a following process there can be kusala cittas accompanied by sati which is aware of the characteristic of that akusala dhamma that arises and falls away very rapidly; processes of kusala cittas accompanied by sati can arise in alternation with processes with akusala cittas. This can go on for several rounds. Question: At this moment I pay attention to it that this is dosa and that lobha. Sujin: This is thinking, and when you know this, thinking will stop. Also when we do not think there are realities. The rúpa that is hardness is present without the need to think of it. Instead of thinking we can begin to be aware of characteristics of realities. We do not have to think of them or name them, but gradually we can pay attention to and understand what is real and appears. It is the same as when we see an orange and know that it is an orange without having to think that there is an orange. Question: A friend of mine wishes to ask something. He used to sit and concentrate on something and afterwards he acquired knowledge such as we have now from the study of Dhamma, but he continues to cling and concentrate on something. When he is troubled by a problem, he sits down in order to concentrate on something and then he feels more confortable. I explained to him that that is clinging, that it is lobha. He likes to concentrate because it makes him feel contented. I said that he may not feel happy each time because this is anattå, and that sometimes he may not succeed in becoming contented. He said that most of the time when he sits down to concentrate he feels more contented and therefore he likes to continue doing this. Would you please help me to give him an answer? Sujin: There are many kinds of Buddhists, some of them do not study the Dhamma, they do not listen and do not understand the Dhamma. Others again study just a little, and what they study is sometimes wrong, sometimes correct. The Dhamma is very difficult, profound and subtle. People should study it carefully and thoroughly. They should know to what purpose they study it, this is most important. Most people go to the temple because it makes them feel contented. When they enter a temple they feel happy already and they find this sufficient. Or when they listen to the Dhamma they feel contented and this is enough for them. They do not think of paññå, they do not consider what the Buddha realized through his enlightenment. The Buddha¹s compassion that motivated him to teach the Dhamma he realized through his enlightenment is immeasurably great. The Dhamma is the truth that is profound and that can eradicate defilements completely. People who just think of being contented do not think of the eradication of defilements, they do not think of understanding. Therefore, they are Buddhists who are just of the level of wanting the means that make them contented. Jonothan: We have different methods of suppressing dosa that arises. People may listen to tapes about the Dhamma or they may sit in order to concentrate. By these ways dosa will decrease, but they cannot prevent dosa from arising again, and it is the same with the other kinds of akusala cittas. Sujin: Therefore, we do not have to think of what other people want to have, no matter they want contentedness or something else. We who are born into this world, have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma, but listening to the Dhamma is not easy, it is most difficult. We can notice this when we look at people in Thailand or all over the world. When we have the opportunity to develop understanding of the truth we should do so. We should use the word truth, because we do not need something that deceives, that is temporary, because that is of no use; it is not the teaching of the Sammåsambuddha. If people only wish to be contented, they do not need to pay respect to the Buddha; they can read any text that conforts them. It is most difficult to know what the truth is at this moment. If a person is not the Sammåsambuddha he cannot teach the truth of the reality of this moment. Therefore, we should study so that we understand the truth. Paññå is saòkhårakkhandha, the khandha of formations, that is accumulated and in that way there can be conditions for its development. Is there anybody at this moment who says that he wants to realize nibbåna or that he wishes to go to nibbåna? At this moment we do not know yet what nibbåna is. Although people do not understand yet the reality at this moment, they think that nibbåna is a place and they hope to go there. They wish to go to nibbåna without knowing what nibbåna is. How will they attain nibbana? When paññå knows and understands the truth of realities, paññå will tend towards nibbåna, and then there is no idea of self who is forcing himself to do so. When one knows and understands the truth it will be a condition to gradually incline to nibbåna. Whether this is a slow or a rapid process depends on the power of defilements and on the power of paññå. There is no self who can force his inclinations he has accumulated for an endlessly long time, hundred thousands of aeons or more. However, the paññå that has been developed will know the truth of dhammas that are non-self, but realities which have been accumulated and arise at this moment. There are conditions that a person is such or such, and therefore nobody can establish any rules with regard to what one should do. People are not identical, each person is unique, and thus each person has his own accumulated inclinations. Therefore nobody can establish any rule that would cause the arising of paññå. The only conditions for paññå to gradually develop are listening to the Dhamma, studying it, investigating the Dhamma and taking part of Dhamma discussions. Some people believe, when they come to listen to the Dhamma, that they have to dress in white, but this is not the right condition for the development of paññå, for correct understanding. ******* Footnote 1. Ignorance is the first link of the Dependent Origination. So long as there is ignorance we continue being in the cycle of birth and death. For the arahat who has eradicated ignorance, there will not be rebirth, for him there is the end to the cycle of birth and death. ****** 9385 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] metta meditation op 17-11-2001 12:46 schreef m. nease op mlnease@y...: > Dear Sarah and Ranil, > > > As I understand it, the brahma viharas aren't > 'directed' towards 'oneself' or 'others'. The > pre-eminent characteristic of all of them is that they > are directed to absolutely all beings without > exception in every direction and to the entire cosmos, > rather than being directed at someone in particular. > Dear Mike, I hope you are happy and well in Bgk, getting on with the Thai. A. Sujin explained that only when jhana has been attained one can direct the brahma viharas to all beings.Thus, for those who do not develop jhana it is different, we have to develop them in daily life as the case demands. If we sit and meditate about them, they are just very nice abstract thoughts, it is easy to love mankind but difficult when someone near you is unreasonable and yells at you. This happens in daily life, and where are the patience and metta or compassion at such momnets? I have to remind myself of this also. As to no exception, yes, metta should not only be directed towards nice people but also to disagreeable people. >Best wishes, Nina. > > 9386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Music op 15-11-2001 11:40 schreef hhofman@d... op hhofman@d...: > > After high school I was apprenticed to a pipe organ builder, working > both in Australia and the Netherlands. I did learn to play the organ > then, was church organist for some time, as well as teaching a number > of pupils. > > Some of my boys are very musical. This may sound like pride, but I > understand full well that they are what they are, not much to do with > me. The younger one of mine got his first guitar less than two years > ago. The band he is in with my older son and some friends just won > the NSW Battle of the Bands. It is all conditions, and wise attention. > > My wife's oldest boy recently received a ranking of 95% in his final > exams. His middle brother is a farm hand who loves being with the > animals all day. The youngest one watches the Simpsons all day and > all night. Everyone is different, and each must find their own way. > > We differ on a number of issues, Nina, including (I quote from > NanaVira) Cittavíthi, 'mental process, cognitive series'. > Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV etc. It is, perhaps, not superfluous to remark > that this doctrine, of which so much use is made in the Visuddhimagga > (and see also the Abhidhammatthasangaha), is a pure scholastic > invention and has nothing at all to do with the Buddha's Teaching > (or, indeed, with anything else). (I unquote) Dear Hermann, I was delighted with your letter, and fascinated to hear about your life, your musical background, the different accumulations of your boys. How it is all conditioned! We have a lot in common in this respect, I also used to play the organ. Now Vis Ch XIV and the mental process. Yes, I understand what you mean, Hermann. A. Sujin said that each person is unique and therefore there are no rules about what someone should do, develop or study. Everybody is very free as to what he wants to study. And Ch XIV is complex, such a lot of material in one chapter. Not only in the Vis. but also in the scriptures the processes have been dealt with: the "Path of Discrimination"(Treatise on Knowledge, Ch XVII, Behaviour, cariya) and the "Conditional Relations" (patthana, feeling Triplet, Investigation Ch, under Proximity and Repetition). But I understand it if you do not want to take up these works. Now, Hermann, what about our own life just now. In this way we can find out more. We see something pleasant and like it. The seeing is something we undergo, it is passive, it is result, vipaka. Then follow our reactions, we like what we see. Javana cittas which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, in this case with clinging, thus akusala cittas. We hear a harsh sound. Hearing is another chapter of our life. Hearing we undergo, we cannot choose it. Our reactions: usually dislike. Then quite another chapter, smelling: we smell an unpleasant odour: smelling and then our reactions. Thus we go on from one sequence to another sequence of cittas that experience objects through six doors. From birth to death, we are in the cycle of birth and death. We have to be born, we have to see, hear, undergo all the sense impressions, whether we like it or not. Seeing is conditioned by visible object and eyesense, hearing by earsense and sound. Entirely different experiences arisen because of different conditions. Thus, part of the sequence of cittas we are able to experience. The Buddha who knew all taught the sequence of cittas in detail, but we should not try to count cittas, to catch them. We cannot choose what type of citta arises, we are not the owner of cittas. We can learn more about cittas as right understanding is developed. I am always amazed at the consistency of Buddhaghosa, he wrote such an enormous amount of commentaries, and never a contradiction. When there are differences in classifications it is usually a matter of what is stressed, of explaining certain aspects. He keeps on stressing vipassana, the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anatta, developing understanding of the khandhas, elements, ayatanas. I collect such texts for Robert K. who likes this so much. But I stop raving about Buddhaghosa now, I am not at the right address here, I feel :) . As to chitchat, yes, I am personally inclined "to say it with music" (today Loeillet and Handel with the nephews, Veracini for Pa and Oscar). Now, we can talk with different types of cittas, we can also speak with real concern for someone, with metta, with generosity, with sympathetic joy, thus with kusala cittas. The same goes for writing E mails, this is a good reminder for me. I used to think that talking about flowers etc is akusala, but A. Sujin taught me differently. We can learn that there are different moments when we talk. I should remind myself again and again that when we do not develop dana, observe sila, develop samatha or satipatthana, we act, speak and think with akusala cittas. Yes, I shall write more about conceit, it is always around the corner, even when we laugh. I appreciate Jon's additional reminder of conceit. I have read so many posts of you and then it is nice to hear about your personal life. With best wishes, Nina. 9387 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhammavicaya IV Hi Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Ken O > > --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > 4/ & 5/ > > > I am not sure I see your point here, Ken. The Buddha is affirming > the existence of suffering/a path but pointing out the non-existence of > > any person who suffers/travels the path. You are then saying, if there > is no person how can there be any suffering/path in the first place? > > This> seems to be a semantic argument rather than a substantive one. > > Doesn't it go against your own experience in life? > > > > > > I'm not sure if I have understood your points. Please let me know. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > k: When the verse imply that is no sufferer - to me it would imply > that we have understand reality. Then where is suffering to be found. On one hand we are talking abt anatta (no sufferer), on the other we are not viewing suffering as anatta (suffering exist). To me this is an > > incorrect perspective. Both are anatta. > > When we say "there is pain but there is no-one who experiences pain", or > "there is seeing but no-one who sees", we are saying that-- > -- "painful feeling" and "seeing" are realities, they each have a > characteristic that distinguishes one from the other (and that can be > experienced by awareness/understanding) > -- "person", however, is not a reality, it is a concept, and so cannot > experience the pain or see; the reality that in fact experiences the > pain > or that sees is something other than what we take for "person". > > I am wondering which of these 2 statements you would not agree with, > Ken. > > Jon > k: Seeing is not an utlimate reality. Seeing is dependent of the combination of four elements that produce an object and the eye sense thought process that enable us to see. Feeling is an ultimate reality though bc of the function of vedana. Furthermore, isn't suffering is also a concept. Suffering is the resultant of our akusala tendecies. It is not an ultimate reality. k: I more incline to think, Buddha was speaking conventionally. Kind regards Ken O 9388 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: cittas- Howard/Rob Hi JOn > I agree with your observation, Rob, that one is not required to accept > the teaching on 'single unit citta' in order to develop the conditions for the arising of such awareness, although a holding a definite view to the contrary would no doubt be a considerable obstacle to that development. > > Jon > k: I do not think Ven Hui Heng study a single unit citta in order to be enlighted. Furthermore, he does not emphasis on this single unit of citta for developement. Instead he urge to study anatta and anicca. His panna could be explain by Abidhamma reasoning, but if I have not forgetten he does not expound Abidhamma teachings. In fact in the history of Chinese Sangha, he is the only person who has a sutta based on his teachings and he has the greatest number of enlighted disciples. There is no doubt that Abidhamma teachings help us to understand reality but that does not meant without understanding them, that is a considerable obstacle to development of satipathana. No where in the sutta if we read conventionally indicates there is a need to study Abidhammic concepts. We could infer Abidhamma concepts into the sutta for clearer understanding of the sutta. But it is still the sutta that urges us to be in sati. We could argue on the basis that we are slow learners but that does not mean that developing satipatthana must be based purely on Abidhamma for understand reality. The last few paragraphs is of great signficance, the sutta says some take 7 years(that indicate slow learners) some take just seven day (that indicate fast learners like Ven Sariputa). Kind regards Ken O 9389 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana Hi Jon This abt vows and PariNibbana is very divergent between Mahayana and Thervada. So a comparision is extremely difficult to make. Sorry I do not wish to make any comparision here as it is not fruitful at all in this list discussion. Kind regards Ken O --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > As I understand it, for an > > > > arahant, the khandas, and all dhammas for that matter, have > "ceased" > > in > > > > the > > > > sense that no separate, independent, self-sufficient dhammas are > any > > > > longer > > > > to be observed. > > > > > > I'm not sure what this refers to, Howard. Would you mind giving a > > > reference/explanation? Thanks. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > I am thinking here in terms of an arahant's direct apprehension > > of > > patticasamupada as the "middle way". See, for example, the > Kaccayangotta > Sutta. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm afraid I could not locate a reference to this sutta. The concept of > dhammas that have been seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta as being > dhammas > that have 'ceased' is a new one for me. If you care to follow it > further, > I would be interested to hear more. > > > Howard: > > The *speculation* as to whether "an arahant *choosing*, based > on > > compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an association with some > > realm or > > realms of experience" is a possibility is not, in itself, productive. > > But the > > *knowledge* of whether or not that is a possibility would be very > > useful. For > > example, some Mahayanists have expressed the notion that vowing, prior > > to > > being an arahant, to maintain such an association is necessary, and > that > > > > without having already established, quite strongly, such an intention, > > it is > > too late to do so once one is an arahant. As regards myself, just on > the > > off > > chance ;-)) that, beyond parinibbana, keeping some sort of connection > > with a > > samsaric realm is still possible, I have personally vowed (in my own > > mind) to > > make such a connection. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > I seem to recall that in the case of the true Bodhisatta vow, this can > only be successfully made by one who would have attained enlightenment > in > that same lifetime, had the vow not been made. In other words, only a > person who has developed understanding to the very brink of > enlightenment > can have any real concept of what it means to forego enlightenment for a > higher goal. > > Would this have any relevance, I wonder, to the kind of vow that I > believe > the Mahayanist practitioner is encouraged to make? > > Jon > 9390 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi Howard, > And when the theory also posits cittas (the bhavanga cittas), > which all have the very same object, but it is an object of awareness not possible to be aware of (!), so that we have unaware moments of awareness ;-), the theory becomes all the more an ad hoc, strained one. k: If I have not forgotten what those Abidhammic books that I have read, Buddha and enlighted disciples like Ven Sariputta is able to be aware of this object in the bhavanga citta. Why it is not explain what kind of objects in those Abidhammic books that I have read, that is I really do not know. Actually I hope someone will explain why this object is not described in detail. Kind regards Ken O --- upasaka@a?.. wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > I would like to address myself to one point you make, a point I > have > seen before and which continues to perplex me. In a message dated > 11/18/01 > 12:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... > writes: > > > > As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a stickler for the > > reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe the reason for the > > phenomena you note is the speed of the arising and passing of cittas. > > So that, in a split second there could have been thousands of > > processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, touching, tasting, etc. It > > happens so fast that it seems to blur together. > > > =========================== > It seems to blur together to *whom* or to *what*? In Abhidhamma, > that > which is doing the knowing are the individual cittas. Each citta knows > its > object. WHAT can be seeing the "blur". It seems to me that this notion > is > based on our conventional observation of things such as our observing of > a > torch being moved in a circle, and "we" see a circle of fire, or our > looking > at a movie screen and seeing continuity instead of a sequence of frames. > But > at the level of "abhidhammic reality" each individual citta is seeing a > single object, and there IS NO overarching something to be seeing a > "blur". > Do you follow my problem here? (There seems to be a conflation going on > here.) The individual dhamma/citta view just doesn't seem to adequately > explain actual experience. > And when the theory also posits cittas (the bhavanga cittas), > which > all have the very same object, but it is an object of awareness not > possible > to be aware of (!), so that we have unaware moments of awareness ;-), > the > theory becomes all the more an ad hoc, strained one. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, > a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9391 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi, Robert - I still find a problem here which I will address in context. In a message dated 11/18/01 6:15:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Dear Howard, Well my reply is that I think the theory explains the actual > > experience very well. The example of the movie screen is a reasonable > analogy to explain how the moments are taken as a whole. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think it is. The frames pass by on the screen, and the watcher, standing back, produces a continuous image as a result of watching them. But when the cittas *are* the frames, they are also the "watchers" - there is no overseer, standing back, confronting those cittas. They, with and without their wisdom and other concomitants, are *it*. ----------------------------------------------------- > Remember the individual moments don't come into existence out of > nothing. Each one is conditioned by the previous one and hence there > is continuity. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Continuity seen by *what*"? Each citta sees what it sees (in a moment - does that have duration?), and then ceases. BTW, did the citta, now *gone*, really exist as a separate paramattha dhamma? Was it a separate thing with sabhava, somehow conditioned by other, earlier separate, self-existing things (as in the collision of billiard balls, or particles in pre-quantum physics), and now annihilated? This seems to me to be, at the very same time, a form of substantialism and annihilationism. -------------------------------------------------- > The reason we can't see all this clearly is not a mystery it is > because of ignorance, a most powerful force and conditioning factor > that clouds vision.You ask "what can be seeing the blur"? Well avijja > (ignorance) darts among what is unreal (people, beings, self) and > does not dart among paramattha dhammas. Avijja is very real and is in > a sense the 'overaching something' you ask about. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: So - avijja is some sort of "super-dhamma" which not only exists, but exists beyond the moment? This makes pa~n~na sound like an eternalistic Christ, and avijja an eternalistic Antichrist! ------------------------------------------------ > It is only because we hear about these matters that curiosity arises > and so there is the beginning of investigation (dhamma-vicaya) into > the actual nature of this process. > I would guess for one like Sariputta the distinction between cittas > is as clear as the lines on my hand. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wouldn't you think, then, that in at least one sutta the Buddha (or Sariputta or another chief disciple) would have talked in Abhidhammic terms about the notion of "cittas", about individual mindstates each of which exists for a moment (as the entirety of experience), has essence, and then being utterly annihilated is followed by a separate, successor mindstate? ---------------------------------------------------- Why? Because of developed wisdom.> > best wishes > robert > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9392 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 11/18/01 7:40:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Rob (and Howard) > > Rob, thanks for this very pertinent quote, and my apologies for the delay > in responding. > > I intersperse below, for comparison, the corresponding passage from the P. > Masefield translation (PTS 2000). > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Howard and Jon, > > From the Itivuttaka (no.38 PTS). > > I use Nyanaponika's translation (wheel 251/253) > > This was said by the Blessed one, sopken by the holy One , and > > thus have I heard: > > there are , o monks, two aspects of Nibbana; the Nibbana element > > with the groups of existence still remainin > > (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) and the Nibbana-element with no > > groups remaining (anupadisesa -nibbana dhatu). > > What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still > > remaing? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is > > taint free..but there still remain with him(until death) the > > five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through > > which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as > > well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred > > and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the > > groups of existence still remaining. > > PM "On this one's part, it is the destruction of lust, the destruction of > hatred, the destruction of delusion that is spoken of as that > nibbana-element that is with substrate-remnant." > > > And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In > > that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer > > relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. > > This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence > > remaining. endquote > > PM "On this one's part, all that is sensed right here, not being rejoiced > in, will become cold; it is this that is spoken of as that nibbana-element > that is without substrate-remnant." > > I am not sure if there is anything new here. I simply observe that what > is being discussed is the 'nibbana-element', rather than, say, the citta > that experiences that element, although obviously is a reference to one > and the same moment. > > The first kind of nibbana-element is equated with the *destruction of > lust, hatred and delusion*, the second with the *becoming cold of all that > is sensed* after that destruction has occurred. > > There is a further passage in the PM translation, which I think is of a > verse summarising the prose text of the sutta. This reads as follows-- > > "These two nibbana elements .. ; > -- one element -- that with substrate-remnant, in which becoming's lead > is totally destroyed -- pertains to these seen conditions here; > -- that without substrate-remnant, wherein becomings entirely cease, > pertains to the hereafter. > Those whose hearts are liberated .. , being those for whom becoming's lead > is totally destroyed, delight .. in destruction -- these constant ones > abandon all becomings." > > Howard, I read the passage from Rob's post as confirming what you suggest > in your reply to that post, namely the cessation of all sense-door > functions and associated mind-door states. It is possible that is is also > intended to include other mind-door moments; presumably the commentary > would make this clear. > > The emphasis in the verse passage seems to be on the end of 'becoming' > (ie. birth?). I take this to mean that the moment of death (cuti citta) > is not followed by a moment of birth (patisandhi citta). > > As far as I know, the Pali texts take the matter no further than this, but > I intend to keep an eye out for further relevant material. > > Jon > > ======================== Thank you for this kind post. With regard to "The emphasis in the verse passage seems to be on the end of 'becoming' (ie. birth?). I take this to mean that the moment of death (cuti citta) is not followed by a moment of birth (patisandhi citta).", I tend to agree with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu on the point that what is important with regard to birth and death is the birth and death of (the sense of) self. [This is not to deny any other senses of birth and death.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9393 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention) is controllable... Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 11/18/01 7:57:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Rob Ep (and Howard) > > Rob, I enjoyed your discussion below. Just one comment, if I may, on your > remarks about the person who has an understanding of anicca, anatta and > dukkha vs. the person who doesn't. > > I doubt that we can say that a purely theoretical understanding of anicca, > anatta and dukkha could make any difference to the *quality* of a person's > kusala mind-states. That person will still retain the idea of a person or > thing as having those characteristics, in other words, the same innate > views as before hearing about this aspect of the teachings, despite any > conscious thought to the contrary, since only the development of > satipatthana can expose and erode those views in any meaningful sense. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree completely, and I think your statement here is one which can't be repeated often enough. ------------------------------------------------------ > > On the other hand, if you are talking about a real level of understanding > of those characteristics, this could only have been acquired by a > developed understanding of realities as they are, and from seeing those > characteristics as an attribute of these realities. This would be, as I > understand it, an advanced level of vipassana (although I am aware that > many schools of practice these days would consider it to be easily > attainable). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I was always pretty good in school. But I always fail schools such as these you refer to! ;-)) [My prejudicial view is that anyone who thinks that advanced levels (or even moderate levels) of insight are easily attainable is deluded.] --------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9394 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: _[DhammaStudyGroup]_Vipassana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/18/01 8:01:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > As I understand it, for an > > > > arahant, the khandas, and all dhammas for that matter, have "ceased" > > in > > > > the > > > > sense that no separate, independent, self-sufficient dhammas are any > > > > longer > > > > to be observed. > > > > > > I'm not sure what this refers to, Howard. Would you mind giving a > > > reference/explanation? Thanks. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > I am thinking here in terms of an arahant's direct apprehension > > of > > patticasamupada as the "middle way". See, for example, the Kaccayangotta > Sutta. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm afraid I could not locate a reference to this sutta. The concept of > dhammas that have been seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta as being dhammas > that have 'ceased' is a new one for me. If you care to follow it further, > I would be interested to hear more. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Here is a reference, Jon: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: > > The *speculation* as to whether "an arahant *choosing*, based on > > compassion for sentient beings, to maintain an association with some > > realm or > > realms of experience" is a possibility is not, in itself, productive. > > But the > > *knowledge* of whether or not that is a possibility would be very > > useful. For > > example, some Mahayanists have expressed the notion that vowing, prior > > to > > being an arahant, to maintain such an association is necessary, and that > > > > without having already established, quite strongly, such an intention, > > it is > > too late to do so once one is an arahant. As regards myself, just on the > > off > > chance ;-)) that, beyond parinibbana, keeping some sort of connection > > with a > > samsaric realm is still possible, I have personally vowed (in my own > > mind) to > > make such a connection. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > I seem to recall that in the case of the true Bodhisatta vow, this can > only be successfully made by one who would have attained enlightenment in > that same lifetime, had the vow not been made. In other words, only a > person who has developed understanding to the very brink of enlightenment > can have any real concept of what it means to forego enlightenment for a > higher goal. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: If what you are saying here is that one must be at the brink of enlightenment to usefully make that vow, then I'm a tad premature!! ;-)) However, taking the vow now, and then again many times in the future, might constitute some helpful seed-planting to guarantee that I do take the vow in that lifetime, a millenium of millenia from now, in which the vow *will* be efficacious. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Would this have any relevance, I wonder, to the kind of vow that I believe > the Mahayanist practitioner is encouraged to make? > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9395 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhammavicaya IV Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/18/01 10:18:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn@y... writes: > k: Seeing is not an utlimate reality. Seeing is dependent of the > combination of four elements that produce an object and the eye sense > thought process that enable us to see. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you. To me, the term 'ultimate reality' is misleading when applied to conditioned dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------- Feeling is an ultimate reality> > though bc of the function of vedana. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree with you here. Feeling is dependent upon contact. ---------------------------------------------------------- Furthermore, isn't suffering is also> > a concept. Suffering is the resultant of our akusala tendecies. It is > not an ultimate reality. > > ============================== Just one cautionary note. Abidhammikas don't use the term 'ultimate reality' in a sense that precludes it from being conditioned. I find that use of the term a bit odd, but so long as it has a consistent meaning in that context, there is no problem. In Abhidhamma, I believe that a paramattha dhamma is any dhamma that is directly observable through a sense door as opposed to being (the referent of a) mere concept. We're headed for misunderstanding when we conflate the Abhidhammic defintion with another. With metta. Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9396 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Dear Robert and Howard, May I add the the 'blur' is conceptual, a construction by avijja (and other conditions) from a very great many moments of consciousness. In other words each moment is quite clear (even if akusala and deluded)--the confusion occurs in the retrospective pa×~n~natti/papa~n~ca. That's the way I see it anyway.. mike .--- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > I would like to address myself to one point > you make, a > point I have > > seen before and which continues to perplex me. In > a message dated > 11/18/01 > > 12:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > > As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a > stickler for the > > > reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe > the reason for the > > > phenomena you note is the speed of the arising > and passing of > cittas. > > > So that, in a split second there could have been > thousands of > > > processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, > touching, tasting, etc. > It > > > happens so fast that it seems to blur together. > > > > > =========================== > > It seems to blur together to *whom* or to > *what*? In > Abhidhamma, that > > which is doing the knowing are the individual > cittas. Each citta > knows its > > object. WHAT can be seeing the "blur". It seems to > me that this > notion is > > based on our conventional observation of things > such as our > observing of a > > torch being moved in a circle, and "we" see a > circle of fire, or > our looking > > at a movie screen and seeing continuity instead of > a sequence of > frames. But > > at the level of "abhidhammic reality" each > individual citta is > seeing a > > single object, and there IS NO overarching > something to be seeing > a "blur". > > Do you follow my problem here? (There seems to be > a conflation > going on > > here.) The individual dhamma/citta view just > doesn't seem to > adequately > > explain actual experience. > > And when the theory also posits cittas (the > bhavanga > cittas), which > > all have the very same object, but it is an object > of awareness not > possible > > to be aware of (!), so that we have unaware > moments of awareness ;- > ), the > > theory becomes all the more an ad hoc, strained > one. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > >++++++++++++++ > > Dear Howard, > Well my reply is that I think the theory explains > the actual > experience very well. The example of the movie > screen is a reasonable > analogy to explain how the moments are taken as a > whole. > Remember the individual moments don't come into > existence out of > nothing. Each one is conditioned by the previous one > and hence there > is continuity. > The reason we can't see all this clearly is not a > mystery it is > because of ignorance, a most powerful force and > conditioning factor > that clouds vision.You ask "what can be seeing the > blur"? Well avijja > (ignorance) darts among what is unreal (people, > beings, self) and > does not dart among paramattha dhammas. Avijja is > very real and is in > a sense the 'overaching something' you ask about. > It is only because we hear about these matters that > curiosity arises > and so there is the beginning of investigation > (dhamma-vicaya) into > the actual nature of this process. > I would guess for one like Sariputta the distinction > between cittas > is as clear as the lines on my hand. Why? Because of > developed wisdom. > best wishes > robert 9397 From: Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Hi, Mike - (Uh, wait a minute. What is your status now? Are you still callable as "Mike"?) In a message dated 11/18/01 9:38:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@y... writes: > > Dear Robert and Howard, > > May I add the the 'blur' is conceptual, a construction > by avijja (and other conditions) from a very great > many moments of consciousness. In other words each > moment is quite clear (even if akusala and > deluded)--the confusion occurs in the retrospective > pa×~n~natti/papa~n~ca. That's the way I see it > anyway.. > > mike > ========================== So at each moment there is no blur, but then, as a kind of conceptual summing up there is a blur? (I seem to find that my mind is becoming a total blur at such thoughts! ;-)) Great to hear from you, Mike! I wish you all the very best!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 9398 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 8:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga Cittas Dear Robert, You seem to be positing avijja as a citta, one that is clouded and apprehends other citta through its ignorant view. I am sure you do not mean that, and I am still wondering how you are positing 'ignorance' as a force which can 'see things' in an imperfect or blurred way. Is ignorance not a state or condition in which deluded cittas arise and condition one another? Or do you mean to say that it is a kind of thing in itself that actually 'darts around' confusing different objects with each other? Best, Robert Ep. ========== --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > I would like to address myself to one point you make, a > point I have > > seen before and which continues to perplex me. In a message dated > 11/18/01 > > 12:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > > As you know I am a bit of (actually, a lot of) a stickler for the > > > reliability of the Theravada texts. I believe the reason for the > > > phenomena you note is the speed of the arising and passing of > cittas. > > > So that, in a split second there could have been thousands of > > > processes of seeing, hearing, thinking, touching, tasting, etc. > It > > > happens so fast that it seems to blur together. > > > > > =========================== > > It seems to blur together to *whom* or to *what*? In > Abhidhamma, that > > which is doing the knowing are the individual cittas. Each citta > knows its > > object. WHAT can be seeing the "blur". It seems to me that this > notion is > > based on our conventional observation of things such as our > observing of a > > torch being moved in a circle, and "we" see a circle of fire, or > our looking > > at a movie screen and seeing continuity instead of a sequence of > frames. But > > at the level of "abhidhammic reality" each individual citta is > seeing a > > single object, and there IS NO overarching something to be seeing > a "blur". > > Do you follow my problem here? (There seems to be a conflation > going on > > here.) The individual dhamma/citta view just doesn't seem to > adequately > > explain actual experience. > > And when the theory also posits cittas (the bhavanga > cittas), which > > all have the very same object, but it is an object of awareness not > possible > > to be aware of (!), so that we have unaware moments of awareness ;- > ), the > > theory becomes all the more an ad hoc, strained one. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > >++++++++++++++ > > Dear Howard, > Well my reply is that I think the theory explains the actual > experience very well. The example of the movie screen is a reasonable > analogy to explain how the moments are taken as a whole. > Remember the individual moments don't come into existence out of > nothing. Each one is conditioned by the previous one and hence there > is continuity. > The reason we can't see all this clearly is not a mystery it is > because of ignorance, a most powerful force and conditioning factor > that clouds vision.You ask "what can be seeing the blur"? Well avijja > (ignorance) darts among what is unreal (people, beings, self) and > does not dart among paramattha dhammas. Avijja is very real and is in > a sense the 'overaching something' you ask about. > It is only because we hear about these matters that curiosity arises > and so there is the beginning of investigation (dhamma-vicaya) into > the actual nature of this process. > I would guess for one like Sariputta the distinction between cittas > is as clear as the lines on my hand. Why? Because of developed wisdom. > best wishes > robert 9399 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 8:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dukkha (was, Concepts) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Thanks, Jon. I did > enjoy those entries. > > I would say, from reading those, that the word 'dukkha' is meant to > > include all > > experiences that have a quality of suffering or a tendency to create or > > lead to > > suffering in the present or future. > > So to follow your observation along, Rob, what experiences would you see > falling within/outside that criterion? (If you get the feeling this is a > test, you could just be right!) > > Jon Well, Jon, if you want me to be 'smart' about it, I could just say the following: (1) suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhatá), > > (2) the suffering inherent in the formations (sankhára-dukkhatá), > > (3) the suffering in change (viparináma-dukkhatá)" But I think the idea is for me to answer in my own words? So here goes: I would say that under this definition, suffering includes any experience that does not include the arising of wisdom [panna]. The reason for this is that the commentary makes clear that *all* life-experiences in the normal course of events either contains or leads to the experience of suffering. Because phenomonal experience is constantly arising and falling away, it is inherently unstable, confusing and dissatisfying. The very nature of experience is extremely insecure and ungraspable and leads to the state we find ourselves in, in which everyone is nearly always in a somewhat bad mood! The only stable force in this wayward universe is the state in which panna arises. From the standpoint of discernment one can account for and see the flow of impermanent events as nothing but what it is, neither grasping it nor trying to get away from it. In this state, the experience of life is accepted and no longer unbalances consciousness. Anyway, that's a stab at it. Did I pass? Robert Ep.