11400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:01am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 3 India Ch 3, no. 3 In India I had a conversation about concepts with Acharn Sujin: Nina: We forget to develop understanding of realities when we read the newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events that occur such as wars. Sujin: We take the stories for reality but actually they are contained in one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding of realities, no matter where we are, whatever event occurs. Nina: We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of realities. Sujin: We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it and develop more understanding. On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have on account of the truth of non-self: Sujin: The world appears dark and lonely without people. There are no family, no friends. There is nobody in this room. Nina: Where is the gladness on account of the Dhamma? Sujin: There can be gladness on account of paññå that knows the truth. You cannot change the characteristics of realities that make up the world. They are only elements. One should be very sincere as to one¹s own development of understanding. When someone is frightened it shows that paññå has not sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, he should be courageous to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is deeply rooted. She also reminded me: ³There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world of thinking, thinking of Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When seeing, we are alone, there is just citta that sees. We are alone because there is no self. Seeing arises and then thinking of the world of concepts and this hides the reality of seeing, visible object and the other realities.² Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of next one, this is one of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, contiguity condition. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise we could not stay alive. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see only what appears through the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately know that this or that person is there, this or that thing, and that we also at the same time have like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are countless moments of cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many impressions seem to occur all at the same time shows that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another extremely fast. Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in between, and therefore, good and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, can be accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to the next life. Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or understanding can be accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again and again. Three akusala cetasikas are roots, hetus, and these are: attachment, lobha, aversion or hate, dosa, and ignorance, moha. Akusala cittas can be rooted in attachment, in aversion or in ignorance, but the hetu that is ignorance accompanies each akusala citta. Thus, ignorance of realities conditions all akusala that arises. Besides the three akusala hetus, several other akusala cetasikas may accompany akusala citta such as wrong view, stinginess or conceit. There are three beautiful roots, sobhana hetus: non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion, adosa and wisdom or paññå. Alobha and adosa accompany each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany kusala citta. Besides the three sobhana hetus several other sobhana cetasikas accompany kusala citta, such as confidence in wholesomeness and mindfulness. 11401 From: azita gill Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 3, no. 3 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > India Ch 3, no. 3 > > In India I had a conversation about concepts with > Acharn Sujin: > > Nina: We forget to develop understanding of > realities when we read the > newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events > that occur such as wars. > > Sujin: We take the stories for reality but actually > they are contained in > one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding > of realities, no matter > where we are, whatever event occurs. > Nina: We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of > realities. > Sujin: We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it > and develop more > understanding. > > On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have > on account of the truth > of non-self: > > Sujin: The world appears dark and lonely without > people. There are no > family, no friends. There is nobody in this room. > Nina: Where is the gladness on account of the > Dhamma? > Sujin: There can be gladness on account of paññå > that knows the truth. You > cannot change the characteristics of realities that > make up the world. They > are only elements. One should be very sincere as to > one¹s own development of > understanding. When someone is frightened it shows > that paññå has not > sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, > he should be courageous > to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is > deeply rooted. > > She also reminded me: > ³There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world > of thinking, thinking of > Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When > seeing, we are alone, there > is just citta that sees. We are alone because there > is no self. Seeing > arises and then thinking of the world of concepts > and this hides the reality > of seeing, visible object and the other realities.² > > Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of > next one, this is one > of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, > contiguity condition. > Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise > we could not stay alive. > Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see > only what appears through > the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately > know that this or that > person is there, this or that thing, and that we > also at the same time have > like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are > countless moments of > cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many > impressions seem to occur > all at the same time shows that cittas arise and > fall away, succeeding one > another extremely fast. > Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in > between, and therefore, good > and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala > cetasikas, can be > accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to > the next life. > Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or > understanding can be accumulated so > that there are conditions for their arising again > and again. > Three akusala cetasikas are roots, hetus, and these > are: attachment, lobha, > aversion or hate, dosa, and ignorance, moha. Akusala > cittas can be rooted in > attachment, in aversion or in ignorance, but the > hetu that is ignorance > accompanies each akusala citta. Thus, ignorance of > realities conditions all > akusala that arises. Besides the three akusala > hetus, several other akusala > cetasikas may accompany akusala citta such as wrong > view, stinginess or > conceit. There are three beautiful roots, sobhana > hetus: non-attachment, > alobha, non-aversion, adosa and wisdom or paññå. > Alobha and adosa accompany > each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany > kusala citta. Besides > the three sobhana hetus several other sobhana > cetasikas accompany kusala > citta, such as confidence in wholesomeness and > mindfulness. > dearest Nina and others, > I chose to delete non of the above because I believe that this is the crux of Buddha's teaching. For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for your excellant writings. A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. > > 11402 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, /Michael. Hi Michael, Sorry, I don't have any contact address for Bhikkhu Bodhi ..... he is one of my favourite writers though. Thank you for your interesting post. I enjoyed reading about your past Dhamma connections, and I'm so glad you are finding your way back in touch again. I don't think we ever lose the true parts of our life - sometimes we just wander away for a while, and get distracted by other things. But eventually we come back to our "hearts' home" and find the beauty is still the same and wonder how we ever could have stopped noticing it........ Hope to see more of your posts on this list, Michael.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "michael newton" wrote: > Hello!Christine; > Could you send me Bhikkhu Bodhi's email address(if you've got it) > I was a monk ordained by his teacher by Ven,Ananda Maitreya,his > teacher,at Balangoda,but now I'm disrobed.I always admired Bhikkhu > Bodhi,his depth of practice and knowledge.Thank's to this dhamma study > group,I'm reconnecting with my past that was so rich and rewarding and > now feel it's always there,but just hadn't seen it lately.Thank's to the > world wide web,I've met others i used to know.Khun Sujin,Nina,and Sarah. > I've recently connected with Ven.Sravista Dhammika,Australian monk,now > living in Singapore,but travels to India,Sri Lanka,and Euope most > recently.Downloaded some of his online PDF FILES.He's most recent work > is"Good Questions,Good Answers".His email address is pitijoy@y... > MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY,YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON > > > >From: "christine_forsyth" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. > >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:38 -0000 > > > >Hi Num, > > > >Thanks for your post .... time to settle down again, and use the > >energy more constructively :-) > >I'm starting to study the Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of > >Views - Bhikkhu Bodhi. That should keep me quiet for a while .... a > >considerable while, by the looks. (All I ask is - please don't let me > >find that I hold ALL of the erroneous views ....) > > > >metta, > >Christine > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "srnsk" wrote: > > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I > >really > > > smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya > > > (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends > >(kalayanamitta) > > > is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. > > > > > > As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in > >all > > > parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can > >go > > > completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. > > > > > > Anumodhana. > > > > > > Num > > 11403 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hi Victor, All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, what we are doing now are just plain attachment. Kind regards Ken O --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, > would > > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that > is how > > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they > are. Is > > it the same as what you have said below. > > > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also > said "this > > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is > not an > > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:22:19 -0500 > > From: "Victor Yu" > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > > > > Hello Ken, > > > > These five aggregates are not what I am. > > > > Regards, > > Victor 11404 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computers and dhammas --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > I can see you are giving some careful thought to this. It is not easy to > grasp, but very worthwhile persevering with. Thanks, Jon. And thanks for your efforts at clarification. Best, Robert Ep. 11405 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: There can be useful reflection about the dhamma > and its relation to the present moment at any time, even as one reads > posts. And asking pertinent questions (which is something you excel at) > is also given in the texts as being a key asset. thanks, jon, and thanks for your good answers. Robert Ep. 11406 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Howard, I've been appreciating your discussion with Jon and I'm sure there are many people here who share your understanding of Sat Sutta, 8fold path and so on and will be glad if you continue to clarify your points. I think it's very helpful for us all to discuss these areas and finetune. Anyway, that wasn't my purpose here;-) I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could kindly check it..sorry for the delay. Sarah ====== --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, > the > renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. > He > lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" > the > doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing > that > all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for > short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from > Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having > goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of > the > seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise > from > being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of > kamma....If > any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations > - be > they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... > I can > say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." > I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the > connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being > the > victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to > the > effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings > which > have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent > beings." I > have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own > deductions. 11407 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) Hi Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > > 5.. > Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the > conversation > > would > > > steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are > more > > > loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! Pls add more. There are a lot of discussions here about anatta, control, intention and rt effort. There's no hurry at all (I know you're really trying to keep away until March), but sometime if you would write a little more on this general area with your refreshingly different style, I think it would be helpful for us all;-) You also have the advantage (which Christine is rapidly losing;-) of not being seen to toe the party line -quite..... You never know either, but your ol' pal Erik might also be persuaded to surface for a little while when you raise these topics;-) I hope Lisa is finding a few posts comprehensible enough to consider and thank you again for your 'skilful' comments and refs which I'll check out very soon. Sarah ======================== 11408 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Dear Smallchap, --- small chap wrote: > > I am a male Chinese Singaporean. Have been practising > meditation irregularly for about 20 years and still > learning. You'll meet a few other (always travelling) Singaporeans or adopted Singaporeans here. Jon and I live in Hong Kong. We're all still learning here too....(and will probably continue for many, many lifetimes;-)) We often discuss meditation and practise and the different understandings of these terms, so we'll always be glad to hear from you too. Best wishes and thanks for your reply. Sarah ============================ 11409 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminosity yet again! Hi Ken O, Enjoying your chat w/Victor;-) --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Actually I asked this question out of curiousity. Since beings in hell > and other realms all have0bhavanga cittas, hence luminious is applied to > them too. Actually what I was told exactly was that they are luminous in all planes (inc. hell realms) because "no other objects appear". In other words, the sense door and mind door objects don't appear and the bhavanga citta is unaffected by these. >I don't think my position is about an external pure mind > essence, I dont think I have disagree with what is said in AA. What > fathoms me is that why bavanga citta is used initially in the commentary > to explain luminious citta then change to kusala cittas for development > of > the mind. To me as in my previous mail, it is not consistent. > Nevertheless, till then, I do accept the commentary position. Like we read about the parent-child analogy in the commentary, the reason I understand for mentioning and considering the bhavanga citta (as luminous) is to show the effect of the kusala and akusala (wholesome and unwholesome)mental factors and how they influence the citta in contrast to the bhavanga cittas (life-continuum consciousness). This is after all what the sutta is about, i.e. the development of kusala and the danger of akusala . > I not on holiday now, I am trying to be a lurker (he he :)). But > sometimes the topic just too much for me not to say something. Glad to hear you're lurking anyway and perhaps you can occasionally say something (or that other little request) for us out of consideration.....;-) >Hmm got > to > be more mindful of my tanha. Yes, well tanha (attachment) does sneek in everywhere..... Thanks Ken O, Sarah ============================= P.S. Newbies, this is a very old theme on dsg. You may wish to refer to a Pali glossary from time to time on the homepage at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary For more detailed posts on this thread, pls also refer to "Luminous Mind' heading at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 11410 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Hello all > In observing realities, am I right to think that what one sees generally > is > more the khandhas than the individual citta, etc.? It seems to me that > what > I take to be "citta" is actually a very complex manifestation of > innumerable cittas - more on the lines of "aggregates" (khandas) than as > single realities. Even isolating rupa from concept of rupa seems almost > impossible to my mind - what I notice as "hardness", etc. is already > elaborated into something quite different from plain hardness - it's > more > like "hardness" + sanna + vedana + vinnana, +/- recollection of & > comparison with other experiences of "hardness" and even expectations of > "hardness" becoming softer and warmer...instead of looking at one door, > I'm > looking at a whole building plus the surrounding gardens, parks and > streets... What you are describing is I think a fairly common experience, namely, that a practice of 'observing realities' does not result in a breaking down of the present moment experience into its component realities. To put it another way, it does not seem possible by such a practice to 'deconstruct' the ongoing present moment experience into the various parts that are described in the teachings. The reason this is so (at least, according to my understanding of the teachings) is that the underlying realities that constitute the present moment can only be directly observed as they are by awareness and insight, and the conditions for the the happening of these particular factors do not include the intentional observation of realities. Let me hasten to add here, since I am likely to be misunderstood on that last point, that I am not saying that the intention to observe realities is either a positive or a negative factor. I am saying it is not given in the texts as one of the *necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development of insight. I presume this is because, when you think about it, kusala of any kind canand does occur both with and without the 'assistance' of volitional intention, and presumably the stronger one's kusala tendencies the more likely those tendencies are to manifest without the 'prompting' of a self-administered reminder. To answer your question, then, I think that what one sees when trying to observe realities is neither individual cittas not khandhas. Anything we try to 'see' in this way has actually gone before we 'see' it. My understanding is that what we see at those times is not different *qualitatively* (in the terms we are discussing here -- awareness, panna or other kinds of kusala) from what we see at any other time, although it is no doubt different in the sense that we do not normally turn our attention to those particular matters. > So, I wonder, does the practice of satipatthana lead to discriminating > individual realities? What's the process by which the aggregates > disaggregate and an individual citta or rupa becomes manifest? I suppose the short answer to the first of these questions is found in the Satipatthana Sutta itself, where it says in the section on mind-objects (which I quoted in a recent post to Howard), that 'contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects' means in fact 'knowing as they really are' those mind-objects. In other words, it's not that there is a practice of satipatthana that *leads to* the discriminating of individual realities, but satipatthana itself *is* the discriminating of individual realities. If individual realities are not being discriminated, then it's not satipatthana; only by satipatthana can individual realities be discriminated. As to individual cittas or rupas becoming manifest, it depends on what you mean by 'individual' here. True, awareness knows *only one reality at a time*, but this does not mean that it knows *a single moment of that reality*, followed by a single moment of some other reality (only great minds such as those of a Buddha can know realities to that level of detail). As I understand it, there may be several moments of awareness of the same particular reality, and in this way the individual reality becomes discriminated for a brief period. What is the process by which this happens? According to the texts, it cannot happen without a thorough grasp of the theory of the present moment, otherwise one will be trying to see things that are not there to be seen. Nor can it happen without an appreciation that it cannot be made to happen, but can only come about (but nevertheless will surely come about) if the right conditions for its happening are developed. Some consider this to be mere randomness, but properly understood it just means that if the right environment is provided, awareness will sprout in due course (can anyone *make* a tree grow??). And awareness needs the most delicate of nurturing! > Or is this a stupid question? No question on this subject is a stupid one, as far as I 'm concerned. The texts encourage us to ask questions about things that need to be understood. I hope this is helpful. Jon 11411 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:15am Subject: The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Dhamma Friends The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind. I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta½ sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– "paº¹ara½ parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya½ labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki½ pana cittassa vaººo n±ma atth²"ti? Itaro ar³pat±ya "natth²"ti paµikkhipitv± pariy±yakath± aya½ t±disassa cittassa parisuddhabh±van±d²pan±y±ti dassento "n²l±d²nan"ti-±dim±ha." To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets as follows. "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- aadimaaha." If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the chore became rather time-consumming. As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because I wanted to save time. Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here on this list. Happy downloading! Suan THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a figurative speech. I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as the life-cause consciousness (bhavańga cittam). As both the commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I provided new information on the matter. Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause consciousness here. The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the original Suttam statement in two ways. Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern fields of sciences. What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a bit longer. What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior arising from the same mental chain"? The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern general readers. Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of spelling out the implications of their readings of the original Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the function of the successors? The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following link. http://www.bodhiology.org/ On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw 11412 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Sarah - I'll check "Buddhadhamma" again, which is where the reference came from, and I'll also check the Dhammapada as well. Perhaps Ven Payutto made an error. As I recall, somebody quoted a similar piece involving Sivaka from an entirely different source. (I think I may have commented on this at the time as an "oddity".) If I fail to get back to you on this soon (I'm a drop busy at the moment), please do remind me about it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/22/02 1:58:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I've been appreciating your discussion with Jon and I'm sure there are > many people here who share your understanding of Sat Sutta, 8fold path and > so on and will be glad if you continue to clarify your points. I think > it's very helpful for us all to discuss these areas and finetune. > > Anyway, that wasn't my purpose here;-) > > I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was > curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which > is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could > kindly check it..sorry for the delay. > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11413 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 4 India Ch 3, no. 4 Cittas such as seeing or hearing arise within a series or process of cittas. When seeing experiences visible object, it arises in a process of cittas experiencing visible object through the eye-door, they are eye-door process cittas. Seeing does not like or dislike, it is not wholesome, kusala, nor unwholesome, akusala; it is citta that is result of kamma, of a wholesome or unwholesome deed performed in the past. Seeing is vipakacitta, citta that is result. Thus, seeing arises when the right conditions are present, and the rúpas which condition it are eyesense and colour or visible object. What occurs at this moment? Shouldn't we verify realities at this moment? There is seeing now, but no self who sees. Can we make seeing arise? It has arisen already because of conditions. Do we really consider and investigate this? We have to see, we have to hear, because there are conditions, no ³I² who can cause their arising. If we do not consider this again and again we cannot understand the meaning of anattå. Seeing is not the only citta arising in the eye-door process, there are other cittas that also experience visible object but perform each their own function. After seeing has fallen away, there are several more types of cittas and then kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise experiencing visible object in a wholesome or unwholesome way. When the sense-door process has ended a mind-door process of cittas arise that experience visible object. After that there may be other mind-door processes of cittas thinking of concepts. When we experience a sense object through one of the sense-doors we often react with attachment, lobha, when the object is pleasant, and with aversion, dosa, when the object is unpleasant. Let us consider our daily life. When we experience a disgusting odour, aversion can arise even before it is known what kind of odour it is. When a delicious morsel of food is on the tongue, attachment can arise even before knowing what kind of flavour it is. When we are sitting on a soft chair, the rupa that is softness may appear through the bodysense and attachment arises already, but we may not even realize that there is attachment. This may happen just now while we are sitting. Many moments of akusala cittas arise but we do not even notice them. Cittas arise extremely fast, it seems that many impressions occur all at the same time. But there are different realities each with their own characteristic. We should verify this so that we can understand, at least in theory, the rapidity of the cittas arising and falling away in processes, cittas which have no owner and cannot be controlled. They have the characteristic of non-self, anattå. We don't have to do anything special to cause the arising of lobha or dosa, they arise already because of their own conditions. After odour or flavour is experienced during the sense-door process it is experienced through the mind-door, and again there can be aversion or attachment. It is still not known what kind of odour or flavour it is. That is known afterwards in other mind-door processes which experience concepts. We can think of concepts with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but usually we think with akusala citta. When the objective of the cittas that think is not generosity, dåna, morality, síla or mental development, bhåvanå, they are akusala cittas. There is no person who is good or bad, wholesomeness and unwholesomeness are particular cetasikas arising because of conditions that perform their functions in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. When we act, speak and think we can gradually find out that usually akusala cittas motivate deeds, speech and thinking. When we are stretching out our hands to take hold of things, when we walk or speak, cittas with attachment, lobha, are bound to arise. We like to speak, we speak with attachment or conceit. There are many degrees of akusala, they can be coarse or more subtle. also when we do not hurt others there may be akusala cittas, but we do not notice them. Even when we consider the Dhamma, there can be clinging to the idea of self who wishes to make progress in understanding. The Buddha spoke to the monks about síla, morality, under the aspect of restraint of the sense faculties (indriya samvara síla) by mindfulness of realities that are experienced through the six doors. At such moments one is not overwhelmed by defilements that may arise on account of what one experiences. The ³Visuddhimagga² (I, 42) quotes from the ³Middle Length Sayings (I, 27, Lesser Discourse on the Elephant¹s Footprint), explaining the virtue of restraint of the sense faculties as follows: ... On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the sign (nimitta) nor the particulars (anubyañjana) through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odour with the nose... On tasting a flavour with the tongue... On touching a tangible object with the body... On cognizing a mental object with the mind, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the mind faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the mind faculty, undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty... We read in the ŒVisuddhimagga² (I, 54): ³Apprehends neither the signs²: he does not apprehend the sign (nimitta) of woman or man, or any sign that is a basis for defilement such as the sign of beauty, etc.: he stops at what is merely seen. ³Nor the particulars² (anubyañjana): he does not apprehend any aspect classed as hand, foot, smile, laughter, talk, looking ahead, lookind aside, etc., which has acquired the name ³particular² because of its particularizing defilements, because of its making them manifest themselves. He only apprehends what is really there... Further on the ³Visuddhimagga² (I,56) explains: ³He enters upon the way of its restraint: he enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness.² Understanding of realities should be naturally developed, we should not force ourselves to ignore concepts and try to know realities such as seeing or hearing. When we are listening to music we may try to know the reality that is just sound, different from the concept of a whole, of a melody, but this is not the way to develop right understanding naturally. Then there would be attachment that obstructs the development of paññå. Direct understanding of a characteristic of a reality is already developed paññå, and how can we expect to have developed paññå in the beginning? ********* 11414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: sad experiences Dear Christine, I am just as greedy as Sarah, she wrote exactly what I thought: we could all benefit if you would tell in what way the discussions helped in a difficult time. When we do not have sad experiences today, we sure will have them tomorrow, we cannot escape troubles, sickness and death. How I appreciate your determination and energy to make the long trip to Bgk. Do not hurry with your answer but I always appreciate what you write. Best wishes from Nina. 11415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Dear Betty, all those crowds in Varanasi, lots of hawkers, no rest. I was so impressed the first time I was there many years ago, with Phra Dhammadharo. He exclaimed with enthusiasm: exactly like the Buddha's time, nothing has changed. I found it all overwhelming. We can be reminded of dukkha: where are all those people going, where are we all going: to rebirth, and then, death again. You probably did not go to the holy places, because there it is quiet, no vendors there, it is forbidden. It is helpful to go with friends you can discuss dhamma with.This time I did not go around in Varanasi, but we had a lot of Dhamma talks with A. Sujin in the hotel. Lodewijk and I also had aversion when people were pushing so much near the buses, rather frightening, but all that is quickly forgotten. A. Sujin once explained: when you have dosa because of being pushed by a beggar girl, it is conditioned by conceit: how can she treat me like that? She is pushing me. Akusala arises because it is conditioned, but we should not take it too much to heart or find it too important. It arises and is then gone immediately. Sarah and I used to talk about it that we better not dwell too long on what is gone and create big stories out of it. Then we make the aversion worse. There are very few tourists nowadays and when poor people see buses or cars they come at once. Not all of them push or behave badly. Lodewijk bought souvenirs and had some nice conversation with them, they made him laugh. At all the holy sites we were sitting very quietly, having dhamma discussions, walking around. Savatthi is so peaceful, you can walk around quietly. It all depends where you are in India. Lodewijk and I always wish to return there, feel nostalgic about it. We talk about India almost every day, just like Jaran's father who also loves India. I do wish you will enjoy India next time. Best wishes from Nina. 11416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] four right efforts Dear Num, yes, when the four right efforts are lokiya they are not as strong as when they are lokuttara, but one thing is important: they are samma-padhanas when they accompany citta developing the Path, that is, satipatthana. When there is viriya with dana, it is not samma-padhana, this was discussed in India. Jon also asked whether all four of them perform their functions at the same time when the citta is not lokuttara, and A. Sujin answered , yes they do but they have not reached fulfillment as is the case when lokuttara citta arises. We have to consider ourselves: when there is awareness of a nama or rupa, is it not so that akusala is avoided, and overcome, that kusala is developed and maintained? These are four aspects, and the first and second seem so close, but there must be a reason that four samma padhanas are mentioned, not three. Take the first aspect: there are moments of kusala citta when you study and listen to the Dhamma, and then akusala citta has for that short while no opportunity, it is avoided. Then something happens, an unpleasant person enters the room, you are on the verge of losing your patience. But you remember that there are only nama and rupa arising because of conditions, there can be awareness of an unpleasant object and then akusala is overcome. How about this? op 21-02-2002 17:58 schreef srnsk op srnsk@a...: > << the > accompanying viriya is one or other of the 4 endeavours, depending on > the > circumstances giving rise to the citta, while at moment of supramundane > path consciousness the accompanying viriya performs the function f all 4 > endeavours.>>> > > Ahha, it makes more sense to me now, when you put in the mundane > and supramundane levels. Like in Sotapatimagga-citta moment, the > panna at that level completely eradicates (discards) micchaditthi and > viccikicca, so at that moment all four aspects of samma-viriya are in > there. Those two will not arise again (1), completely discard (2), moral > that has never arisen has arisen (3), and there can be only samma-ditthi > arises again and again (4), (my own version of interpretation). This will > be an ongoing thing until the moment of the last magga-citta. > > I also think that I can apply this to lokiya kusala. To me, even in lokiya > kusala moment, the viriya cetasika performs these four functions but in > a weaker intensity and degree. At kusala moment, akusla at least > momentary discards and somewhat temporary not arises. Kusala is > developed and it will be a condition for the future kusala. I mean not in > same intensity as in magga-citta. >The goal of listening and >reading are not just to memorize, but to see and understand the truth, >the 4 noble truths. To me, I see pariyatti and patipatti as the same >thing, not completely separated. Again, as I see it, understanding is the >key, not a wish or clinging to get a result. I find out that the tipitaka is >pretty much talking about the reality and truths in our bodies, here and >now. Nina: pariyatti , intellectual understanding, and patipatti, practice of satipatthana, are of different levels. I agree with what you wish to convey: the practice is necessary to really understand what is in the Tipitaka. Otherwise we are, as you said before, like a parrot. We could just say aloud the different texts, but no understanding. With appreciation of all your study, Nina. 11417 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Suan, The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over and over again. Any ideas? Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > On The White Radiant Mind. > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > as follows. > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > aadimaaha." > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > chore became rather time-consumming. > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > I wanted to save time. > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > on this list. > > Happy downloading! > > Suan > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > figurative speech. > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > provided new information on the matter. > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > consciousness here. > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > fields of sciences. > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > bit longer. > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > arising from the same mental chain"? > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > general readers. > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > function of the successors? > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > link. > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > 11418 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Robert Ep, I was able to access the bodhiology home page but it has a script error. However, the links were working and after being led from one link to another I finally came to the main body of the sub-subcommentary. Perhaps you can access it directly by clicking on the following link: http://www.bodhiology.org/journal/Main%20Body%20Of%20Anutika.htm Because it is a long address you may have to cut and paste it together. My machine doesn't have the particular Pali font needed to read the special Pali characters so I think most of us will not be able to properly see the Pali but at least the English part can be read. Best wishes, Jim Anderson > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11419 From: Mike Brotherton Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Robert, You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing happen to me. It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. Mindful lurker, Mike B. Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======= > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > as follows. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > aadimaaha." > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > I wanted to save time. > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > on this list. > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > figurative speech. > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > consciousness here. > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > fields of sciences. > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > bit longer. > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > general readers. > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > link. > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11420 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:31pm Subject: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Dear All, Sarah and Nina asked me to write a little about the tragic events that occurred before I went to Bangkok, and something on a number of other questions triggered by my own and others reactions to those events, and what I am learning as a result......I think it will take a couple of posts......where I was a couple of weeks ago, is not where I am now. Interesting how pain concentrates the mind, and energises a search for easing the suffering (good old Crisis Theory)..........and it is daunting to expose how little or how inaccurate is my understanding.......so, anyone with anything to add, please do so, your comments will be most welcome and needed ....... The Events: Event 1. My daughter was very distressed at the ending of a close friendship with a young man for whom she cared deeply and thought would always be in her life. She thought her life was over, the colour had gone out of it. Three days later, she decided not to attend a birthday party for another friend, as she couldn't celebrate when she was feeling so miserable within herself. Many of her cohort from her old high school were at that party, including A......, the boy who took her to her first High-School Formal in her first long dress with her hair 'up', and H....... her best male friend. Both boys had been her friends and class-mates since they were all eleven years old in Primary School. ..... Though they were all now at different Universities or working, they all kept close contact. In the week before the party, H....... visited my daughter and they talked about their growing-up years, their friendship that never quite became anything more. They laughed and hugged, and said they would always love each other as friends. H........ said friendship was best, it would last their whole lives long and they would always be part of each others lives. He asked my daughter to help him write and 'perform' his speech at his 21st birthday next month, as they had known the same friends for the last ten years, half their life- times. And, he wanted to introduce her to his new girlfriend whom he thought would be "the keeper". (i.e. the one to marry). ------------------------ Event 2. At 3 a.m. in the morning after this Party that my daughter didn't attend, six of them were coming home in an overloaded car when another car smashed into them at speed, running a red light. A...... and a girl were killed instantly. H...... died three hours later, his parents said there was not a visible injury on him. One friend went to Intensive Care in a critical condition, and another had a fractured pelvis. Only H.......s' cousin was uninjured...physically, that is. He was driving. There were no witnesses. All were 20 years old. ----------------------------------- My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there security? where is there meaning? Not just safety for myself and my family physically, but it occurred to me how vulnerable I was also - if anything should happen to any of them....... -------------------------------------- I was corresponding with a dhamma friend about other matters and mentioned what had happened. The friend was kind and helpful, and mentioned some instances in their own life and how they had handled things, and also mentioned suffering/attachment and detachment. I printed the Useful Posts on attachment (lobha) from dsg and read them on the plane to Bangkok. I took Ninas' books "Cetasikas" and "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" to read about Lobha. I found an article by Ven. K.S. Dhammananda called "Is Death really frightening?" which was suitable for my daughter. I also read "Death: A Buddhist Perspective" by Malcolm Huxter and I dug out a book I owned "Living in the Light of Death" by Larry Rosenberg. A book by a Samatha-Vipassana meditation teacher, teaching Death Awareness. A mixed bag - just what seemed pertinent and came easily to hand. Many of the writers valued Death-Contemplation ....... it certainly brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. I searched for other teachings.....anything relevant.....anything that might help my daughter (and myself). Having been a Christian until a few years ago, I had conscientously brought both my son and daughter up to be Christians.......Church, Sunday School, Church Youth Groups, Confimation, Communion, Christian Schools. (So much energy expended going the wrong way....) I now had a different perspective on the events than I would have had as a Christian, but as yet was unable to articulate it convincingly even to myself. I wanted to find a bridge between my world view and that of my daughter..... I knew from my own experiences in Critical Incident, Trauma, and Grief Counselling that she would need immediate emotional first-aid, and then most support in the weeks and months following the funeral - when everyone had gone back to their own lives, and the boys seemed forgotten...... ------------------------------------ Now this is probably kid-stuff to most on this list, who have years and years of experience in Buddhism. And, no doubt, I also had read about attachment many times before - but it didn't mean very much to me until now....(How could I have not noticed that the whole world is pervaded with tanha, lobha, raga and any of its other names?) I think it was in coming to Buddhism from a religion where 'God is Love' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself' and the greatest virtue was 'to love', and the greatest crime was 'not to love' ........and then living in a world that revolves around acquisition of things and people, it is hard to quickly come to an understanding about Attachment. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be bland tasteless unsalted porridge? Looking up the meaning in "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by Nyanatiloka Mahathera, I found the main meaning was listed under Tanha (craving or thirst) - so MANY kinds of tanha, (the 8th link in the paticcasamuppada) and with other meanings under Lobha (attachment), Raga (lust or greed) and abhijjha (covetousness). Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to possessions...... Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from detection........ ------------- On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of grieving parents where there are still-born or neo-natal baby deaths. (indeed, the Emergency Response Mental Health Team would have quickly attended to any young mother carrying a dead child from house to house in my area, wanting to borrow mustard seeds and asking who had died in the house. She would have legally regulated, medicated and hospitalised with some diagnosis - perhaps depression). Possibly even charged by police with 'interfering with a dead body'.......... And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, indifference? Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ This is probably how I was up until I arrived in Bangkok, full of strong emotions and questions, to people who would view all of this from a wider perspective, and who would speak the truth to me........ Hope to add more of what I learned and came to understand soon........ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Chris, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by the > > moderators? > > I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to take > > a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was unexpectedly > > admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. > > I sincerely hope he's OK....you've certainly been having a few tests > lately.... I'm just reflecting on K.Sujin's reminders about thinking > about/helping the others with kusala (no translation;-) instead of > dwelling on one's own unpleasant feelings as can happen so easily..... > > Please don't you or anyone ever feel any hurry or need at all to reply to > anything I say here... > > > I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening in > > clusters........ > > I think it comes back to those complex conditions that kom explained so > well..remember his weather analogy? Remember too, that the 'things' are > just momentary vipaka (results of kamma) followed by kusala and akusala > accumulations..... > > The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation > > people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things come > > in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I > > suppose...... > > In any language, i hope you get a good rest and break this weekend and > that your brother and other family members do too. > > metta, > Sarah > ======== 11421 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind You were right. I got there with no problem. Thanks much. Best, Robert Ep. =========== --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert Ep, > > I was able to access the bodhiology home page but it has a script error. > However, the links were working and after being led from one link to another > I finally came to the main body of the sub-subcommentary. Perhaps you can > access it directly by clicking on the following link: > > http://www.bodhiology.org/journal/Main%20Body%20Of%20Anutika.htm > > Because it is a long address you may have to cut and paste it together. My > machine doesn't have the particular Pali font needed to read the special > Pali characters so I think most of us will not be able to properly see the > Pali but at least the English part can be read. > > Best wishes, > Jim Anderson > > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a > second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This > happens over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11422 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Hi Jon, you wrote: "necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development of insight I was curious, what are the necessary and indispensable factors in the development of insight? thanks, Larry 11423 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Christine, I look forward to your answers to the provocative questions you raised. My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in any literal sense is a myth. metta, Larry 11424 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:05pm Subject: a taste of nibbana? Greetings DSG, What do you think? Can a taste of nibbana be found in any cessation, such as the cessation of a "round" of breath, in and out, or the cessation of a feeling, a thought, an impulse, or a sensory sensation? just curious, Larry 11425 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Christine and all, From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) We may think of death as aberrant and prefer not to think about it. However, the Buddha explained that because of birth then decay and death, sorrow, lamentation and pain all arise. And is this not the truth; we are born into this strange world, and live our short or long, pleasant or painful lives and then die. For every moment that arises intricate conditions are needed. In the sutta above we read "On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises". This aspect of the Paticcasamuppada is happening now while looking at the computer screen but we tend to take it for granted. Yet the eye-base (cakkhupasada) is a special type of matter conditioned by kamma of the past. If that kamma should cease or be obstructed then this type of matter cannot arise and thus there would be no seeing. Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result of good kamma. If the words are properly contemplated now we make new good kamma - and this is another link, sankhara, in the wheel of Paticcasamuppada. These links are evanescent and happening so fast: The Sammohavinodani (by Buddhaghosa- translated as The Dispeller of Delusion, Pali Text society)p244 "and now, because this structure of conditions exists not only in a plurality of consciousnesses but also in a single consciousness, he said avijjapaccaya sankharo (with ignorance as condition, a formation arises) and so on thus setting forth the shedule in order to teach, as to its various aspects, the structure of conditions of a single conscious moment"endquote. There are about 19 pages explaining how the whole paticcasamupada can be seen in such a short time. Knowing more about these fragile moments, I feel that it is a little miracle each time I wake up in the morning, or remember someone's name or experience colour or sound. It seems certain, and not so far away, that one day this life must cease. Sadness too seems very normal, another conditioned dhamma, that must arise because of attachment. Perhaps, as good Buddhists, knowing that sorrow and attachment are akusala (unwholesome), we become concerned to stop aversion, including sorrow. And it is true that if there is understanding at any link of the wheel - for example, if seeing is known as seeing then attachment and sorrow cannot arise. However, all of us have accumulated much attachment over such a long time that it must be expected that it occurs sometimes. Even Anathapindika , a leading lay disiple and sotapanna, had sorrow. Book 1, 13 of the Dhammapada-athakatha (trans. Burlingame PTS edition p.242.)In this the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana died. She was already a sakagami but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. While Anathapindika was at her bed she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha: "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. Said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. The Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna and that she had been reborn in a deva world. Now both Sumana and Anathapindika had attained stages of enlightenment and had thus penetrated the Paticcasamuppada to the degree that they had completely eliminated the three types of upadana (clinging) based on wrong view. However, they hadn't yet eradicted the sensuous clinging and so attachment and sorrow kept arising. It is also interesting that a sotapanna did not know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. So hard is it to know who is truly wise: If we judge people from their behaviour we can say 'he looks always calm' But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness. Then again sometimes someone may be agitated and yet still be accumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality, some aspect of Paticcasamupada. robert 11426 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Larry, This is an interesting comment.......I understand you to mean 'truly graspable' in the sense that nothing can be controlled, kept as it is, owned and stopped from changing - whether a relationship or an object. Hope I've taken your meaning correctly.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in > any literal sense is a myth. > > metta, Larry 11427 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, ... > My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in > any literal sense is a myth. I think you've put your finger on a crucial point here, Larry. As I understand the Buddha's teaching, all dhammas (realities) are impermanent and so intrinsically not worth grasping at. However, because we do not see dhammas as they really are (= avijja/ignorance), we find them 'grasp-worthy'. The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not grasp-worthy) (= vipassana). With the development of this insight, attachment is eradicated in stages beginning at the time of stream entry; prior to that, however, attachment will continue to find all kinds of dhammas grasp-worthy in all ways. Because only developed insight can eradicate kilesa, any attempts at 'dealing with' kilesa will have only a palliative effect and then just for the short term. However, with confidence in the power of panna/insight to eradicate akusala in due course, one is not tempted to pursue shorter term solutions. Jon 11428 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Ken, What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for references. Regards, Victor Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 Bhikkhu Sutta The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute." "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief?" "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "If one stays obsessed with feeling... "If one stays obsessed with perception... "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. [3] "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said in brief." "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "If one stays obsessed with feeling... "If one stays obsessed with perception... "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be seen." Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Notes 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] 3. See MN 72 [Go back] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.' "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > Hi Victor, > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > Hi Victor > > > > > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, > > would > > > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that > > is how > > > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they > > are. Is > > > it the same as what you have said below. > > > > > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also > > said "this > > > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > > > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is > > not an > > > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken O 11429 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Epstein Dear Robert How are you? After having read your message regarding the problem with the bodhiology website, I checked it just now. It seems to be working, though. But, you may also be right. The bodhiology website I saw just now is on the servers in Canberra, in Australia. I have transferred this website to new servers in the US about ten days ago. Currently, the new servers are sufferring Denial of Service Attack, according to the US technicians. Therefore, I cannot receive the domain e-mails currently. As I still have the service of the Canberra servers (expire in late March), I discovered that the Search Engines still let me see the old website despite domain delegation and domain propagation being already performed. While I am writing this message, I was clicking every link on the website. I found that all are working. So, my guess is that the "Cannot find the website" message you received might be to do with some peak activities in your Dial-up ISP. Thank you for reporting the problems with the website. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======= > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub- subcommentary > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub- subcommentary. > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > as follows. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > aadimaaha." > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > I wanted to save time. > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > on this list. > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > figurative speech. > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > consciousness here. > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > fields of sciences. > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > bit longer. > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > general readers. > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > link. > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > > > > > 11430 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary : Dear Suan, I have just had the pleasure of reading your articles about luminous mind at your website. Finally, thanks to your comments about children/parents etc I understand what the Tika and commentaries were getting at with this simile. One point: where you say that lower realms bhavanga can't be considered luminous because it is akusala vipaka citta. I can see that this might be so , but since vipaka is only of one jati- whether kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, and I ask only out of shear curiosity . best wishes robert 11431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:20am Subject: India Ch 4, no 1 India Ch 4, n. 1 A Long Way to go Paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, are all that appears now. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, and the other sense-cognitions that experience sense objects appear in our daily life, also at this moment. They each have their own characteristic that is unchangeable and that is true for everybody. We can verify this when they appear and this is what the Buddha taught time and again. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Salåyatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Ch 5, §152, Is there a method) that the Buddha said: ³Is there, monks, any method by following which a monk, apart from belief, apart from inclination, apart from hearsay, apart from argument as to method, apart from reflection on reasons, apart from delight in speculation, could affirm insight thus: ³Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter¹?² ³For us, lord, things have their root in the Exalted One... Hearing it from him the monks will remember it.² ³There is indeed a method, monks, by following which a monk...could affirm insight... And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and illusion, thus: ŒI have lust (råga), malice (dosa) and illusion (moha),¹ or thus: ŒI have not lust, malice and illusion.¹ Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?² ³Surely not, lord.² ³Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?² ³Surely lord.² ³Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief... a brother could affirm insight thus: ŒEnded is birth... for life in these conditions there is no hereafter.¹ Again, as to hearing a sound with the ear... smelling a scent with the nose, tasting a savour with the tongue... contacting a tangible with the body... cognizing a mental object with the mind.... is that recognition to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation? Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?² ³Surely lord.² ³Then, monks, this is the method by following which a monk, apart from belief... affirm insight.² Insight refers here to arahatship, according to the Commentary, the ³Såratthappakåsiní². One can attain arahatship with this method, that is, developing understanding of realities appearing through the senses and the mind-door. In all the holy sites we visited Acharn Sujin explained about the way to develop understanding of the realities that appear at this moment. She stressed the difference between thinking of terms and words denoting realities and the direct awareness of nåma and rúpa, the development of satipatthåna. She reminded us that we need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider it and to develop right understanding of realities. We have a long way to go in order to see realities as they are. On the basis of her explanations and our discussions I would like to deal with some points stressed by Acharn Sujin and often raised by others. We may know in theory that seeing sees what is visible, visible object, but it seems that we see people all the time. We usually think of concepts with ignorance and clinging, we are totally absorbed in them. Only through the development of direct awareness of realities can we prove that what the Buddha taught about the phenomena of our life is the truth. However, we need a firm foundation knowledge of paramattha dhammas so that we can verify the truth of these phenomena. Acharn Sujin stressed many times that there are three levels of the understanding of the Dhamma: the level of study, pariyatti, the level of practice, patipatti and the level of direct realization of the truth, pativedha. Pariyatti is the firm foundation knowledge that can be a condition for patipatti, the practice or development of direct understanding. If we only think about it that citta, cetasika and rúpa are impermanent and that they arise and fall away, it is theoretical understanding that stems from listening to the teachings. Through the development of satipatthåna, which is the practice, can the truth of what the Buddha taught be directly realized. The aim of the study of the teachings should be direct understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. 11432 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo Dear Azita, thank you for your encouragement. You may know that on Robert K's Web (abhidhamma vipassana) are Phra Dhammadaro's talks in Adelaid I received in handwriting and then typed and edited. In these his voice still rings out clear and loud. Best wishes from Nina. op 22-02-2002 01:02 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's > talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed > nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His > name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad > and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his > wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met > K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad > to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for > your excellant writings. > A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. 11433 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Christine, Yes, by "not truly graspable" I meant physically nothing is really attached to anything else, nothing grasps with a hand or a heart anything else, and also concepts, emotions, and relationships don't actually grasp or encompass anything. So what is attachment but a phantom gasping? Just an idle thought, best regards, Larry ------------------ Christine wrote: Hi Larry, This is an interesting comment.......I understand you to mean 'truly graspable' in the sense that nothing can be controlled, kept as it is, owned and stopped from changing - whether a relationship or an object. Hope I've taken your meaning correctly.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Christine, My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in any literal sense is a myth. metta, Larry 11434 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Jon, you wrote: "The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not grasp-worthy) (= vipassana)." I agree, but this is an intricate and delicate process. As Christine asked in so many words, who wants to abandon all their values? The point I was going for was something I picked up in abhidhamma studies. How do you grasp or attach-to a citta or even a rupa? Impossible. Coincidentally I had been looking for desire in all the wrong places, i.e. any kind of unpleasant reaction. It was rather amazing that I found it there, and finding desire in suffering seemed to unravel the dense compoundedness of the "suffering", actually very trivial. Further research is necessary, but I think this is relevant to "attachment". How do you say "best wishes" in Chinese? Larry 11435 From: michael newton Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:20:00 +0100 >Dear Nina; Just received a email from the Ven.Srivasti Dhammika(Australian monk)who was on Sri Lanka at the time you and Khun Sujin gave your talks.He was a close friend of Phra Dhammadaro,and the 3 of us had many dhammic discussions together.Dhammika told me in his email,last week,that after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees near Laotian border and was travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both dieing instantly,is this correct,or am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most inspiring monks,that opened my eyes to many things,as I remember him,on on your Dhamma Study Group website-there is a excerpt of a question and answer session there.It's good.Trying to get Ven.Dhammika and Akasa Levy my Dharma friends from the 70's in Sri Lanka to join this group.Let me at least give you the email addresses.For Ven.Dhammika-it's pitijoy@y...(website is www.buddhanet.net-where Ven.Dhammika's books are written in the form of pdf files that might take a little while to download) The Ven.Punyavaro is the webmaster of www.buddhanet.com.and he can be contacted as well.It's a down under-Australian buddhist website-pretty impressive.Well put together.Akasa Levi is at akasalevi@m... and is involved in leading buddhist group in the Los Angeles area.Just wanted to share my thoughts with you.Can't stop thinking about Phra Dhamadaro(formerly)YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL(ALOKANANDA formally) >Dear Azita, thank you for your encouragement. You may know that now> on Robert K's Web (abhidhamma vipassana) are Phra Dhammadaro's talks >in >Adelaid I received in handwriting and then typed and edited. In these his >voice still rings out clear and loud. >Best wishes from Nina. > >op 22-02-2002 01:02 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > > > For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's > > talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed > > nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His > > name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad > > and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his > > wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met > > K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad > > to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for > > your excellant writings. > > A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. > > > > 11436 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 7:59pm Subject: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Dear All, Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher morality)? I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are all responsible somehow........ I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of progressing).......... Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation of kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu - water-element? I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old (jara). metta, Christine 11437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed with. To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider the difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and *observation of realities/dhammas*. By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed attention or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what is happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is mind with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed to a particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might be directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that such directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It seems to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of self etc. Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the teachings on not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to seeing them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would have to disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. And unless we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of kusala and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be sure. I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume or infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general circumstances of the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the mind is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and pervasive nature of akusala. Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but perhaps I've said enough controversial things for one post! I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. Jon PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed to you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your posts! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - .... > > In my previous reply to this post I pointed out how in the > Satipatthana > > Sutta the Noble Eightfold Path is given as a ‘mind-object’ to be > known as > > it really is. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand mind-objects to include thoughts, ideas, and > concepts (as > well as emotions, dispositions, etc) > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Specifically, as regards the Four Noble Truths, the sutta says: > > ‘A monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect > of > > the Four Noble Truths. > > How does he do so? > > Here, a monk knows as it really is: “This is sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the origin of sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the cessation of sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the way of practice leading to > the > > cessation of suffering.â€? > > > > The last of these (the 4th Noble Truth) is of course the Noble > Eightfold > > Path. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is an idea, and it is contemplated as such, or so it seems to > me. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I believe you see the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of separately > > occurring factors to be developed individually (now right effort, now > > right concentration, now right view etc). It's not clear to me how, > under > > such a scenario, the *path-as-comprising-all-8-factors* could ever be > a > > ‘mind-object’, that is to say, the object of a single moment of > > consciousness, capable of being ‘known as it really is’. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Where in this sutta, or in any other, does it say anything about > the > path being contemplated in a single mind-moment? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > (It could of> > > course be an object of thinking, as a concept â€" but concepts have no > > quality (sabhava) by which they can be known as they really are). > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The key word was 'contemplate', as in "contemplating > mind-objects". To > contemplate is to think about, mull over, analyze with the mind. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > If, on the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path is understood to be a > > moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) comprising all > 8 > > factors arising together, then that moment (or a moment of mundane > insight > > comprising 5 of the same factors) can clearly be ‘known as it really > is’. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand it so. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > My point is, then, that the inclusion of the Noble Eightfold Path as > one > > of the mind-objects of satipatthana supports the interpretation of the > > Path as describing a single moment of consciousness, rather than as > > separately occurring factors to be developed individually. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not as I see it. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Such a moment can accurately be described in terms of the description > of > > the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path contained in the passage from > the > > sutta (your post below). > > > > Jon > > > ================================== > With metta, > Howard 11438 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Geez, Christine, What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope you're having fun, you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you really, really just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and not on the path is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of imperfect 'stuff' they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, primed for progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are seeing so far is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, without reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, but by then you'll probably be an arahat. Love, Robert Ep. ==================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > morality)? > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > all responsible somehow........ > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > progressing).......... > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > of > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > - > water-element? > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > (jara). > > metta, > Christine 11439 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Yes, by "not truly graspable" I meant physically nothing is really > attached to anything else, nothing grasps with a hand or a heart > anything else, and also concepts, emotions, and relationships don't > actually grasp or encompass anything. So what is attachment but a > phantom gasping? Or is it more like an actual grasping at a phantom object? 11440 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Epstein Dear Suan, hmmnnn....well, the denial of service idea makes sense to me, because I would see the website loaded for a moment, and then it would be taken away and transferred to a 'not available' page. maybe it's fixed now. best, Robert Ep. ====== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Robert > > How are you? > > After having read your message regarding the problem with the > bodhiology website, I checked it just now. It seems to be working, > though. > > But, you may also be right. > > The bodhiology website I saw just now is on the servers in Canberra, > in Australia. > > I have transferred this website to new servers in the US about ten > days ago. Currently, the new servers are sufferring Denial of Service > Attack, according to the US technicians. Therefore, I cannot receive > the domain e-mails currently. > > As I still have the service of the Canberra servers (expire in late > March), I discovered that the Search Engines still let me see the old > website despite domain delegation and domain propagation being > already performed. > > While I am writing this message, I was clicking every link on the > website. I found that all are working. > > So, my guess is that the "Cannot find the website" message you > received might be to do with some peak activities in your Dial-up ISP. > > Thank you for reporting the problems with the website. > > With regards, > > Suan > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it > for a second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. > This happens over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======= > > > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub- > subcommentary > > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub- > subcommentary. > > > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers > to > > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by > the > > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. > Ten±ha– > > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma > vaººadh±tuya* > > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the > funny > > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English > alphabets > > > as follows. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa > vanno > > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti > patikkhipitvaa > > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > > aadimaaha." > > > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, > the > > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 > with > > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali > fonts, I > > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups > because > > > I wanted to save time. > > > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted > here > > > on this list. > > > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the > Suttam > > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > > figurative speech. > > > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' > as > > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this > definition, I > > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. > I > > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > > consciousness here. > > > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. > This > > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator > to > > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received > their > > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > > fields of sciences. > > > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the > need to > > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different > type of > > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern > general > > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression > a > > > bit longer. > > > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the > behavior > > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided > by > > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further > exploration > > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for > modern > > > general readers. > > > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors > the > > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the > following > > > link. > > > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11441 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Dear Victor, I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on the subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is there a true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely states that 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to function in enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one who is liberated. I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* to the question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the question of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a delusion. If the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question of self is no longer a problem, is it? I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has never arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with either the eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution of 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being that is given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. Best, he who is called Robert Ep. [at least around here] =============== --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Ken, > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > references. > > Regards, > Victor > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > Bhikkhu Sutta > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > defined. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > resolute." > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said > in brief?" > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. [3] > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said > in brief." > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be > seen." > > Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got > up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, > keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, > secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained > in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here > & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became > another one of the arahants. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Notes > 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of > resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the > obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] > > 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] > > 3. See MN 72 [Go back] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > Samanupassana Sutta > Assumptions > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or > priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five > clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case > where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble > ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard > for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- > assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or > form as in the self, or the self as in form. > "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or > feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. > > "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, > or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. > > "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing > fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in > fabrications. > > "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing > consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in > consciousness. > > "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And > so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the > appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the > senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). > > "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is > the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, > touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the > thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient > nor non-percipient.' > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives > rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of > clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall > not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be > percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be > neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > > > > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > > > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: 11442 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Dear Christine, I'm working my way backwards through posts, and was just shocked to read about the tragic events in your and your daughter's life. I'm sorry you had to go through that. It is true this life is full of sufferings, and we have all had our share, but none of what you talked about seemed like 'kid stuff' to me. I think your balance in the midst of all this is admirable and shows some real steadiness in your understanding of the teachings you have been working so hard with. By a strange coincidence, a friend from Australia just sent me a CD with lectures by Ajahn Bhramavamso on Theravada and meditation. He told one story which some here may be familiar with about the Buddha and a woman who came to him. I thought it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our lives can sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma. He spoke of a woman who had had the worst possible tragedies befall her all at once during the time of the Buddha. Her husband had been killed and she was trying to go visit her father with her two children. A terrible storm wound up killing both children and on the road she received news that her father had also died in the storm. She went totally mad and wandered around naked from her own encounter with the flood for days. Eventually by karmic conditions she wandered in this state into the grove where the Buddha was teaching his disciples. Those guarding the periphery wanted to keep her out, but the Buddha saw what was happening and told them to let her in. He gave her a cloak to cover herself with and gave her a place to sit and receive the teachings. With nothing left of her former life, within a short period of time she reached full enlightenment and became an arahat. I just thought that at this particular moment when I have been thinking about this story, that you might want to hear about it. I'm very sorry for you having to have gone through the current circumstances, and also wish your daughter the very best. Best, Robert Ep. ======================================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Sarah and Nina asked me to write a little about the tragic events > that occurred before I went to Bangkok, and something on a number of > other questions triggered by my own and others reactions to those > events, and what I am learning as a result......I think it will take > a couple of posts......where I was a couple of weeks ago, is not > where I am now. Interesting how pain concentrates the mind, and > energises a search for easing the suffering (good old Crisis > Theory)..........and it is daunting to expose how little or how > inaccurate is my understanding.......so, anyone with anything to add, > please do so, your comments will be most welcome and needed ....... > > The Events: > Event 1. My daughter was very distressed at the ending of a close > friendship with a young man for whom she cared deeply and thought > would always be in her life. She thought her life was over, the > colour had gone out of it. > > Three days later, she decided not to attend a birthday party for > another friend, as she couldn't celebrate when she was feeling so > miserable within herself. Many of her cohort from her old high > school were at that party, including A......, the boy who took her > to her first High-School Formal in her first long dress with her > hair 'up', and H....... her best male friend. Both boys had been her > friends and class-mates since they were all eleven years old in > Primary School. ..... Though they were all now at different > Universities or working, they all kept close contact. In the week > before the party, H....... visited my daughter and they talked about > their growing-up years, their friendship that never quite became > anything more. They laughed and hugged, and said they would always > love each other as friends. H........ said friendship was best, it > would last their whole lives long and they would always be part of > each others lives. He asked my daughter to help him write > and 'perform' his speech at his 21st birthday next month, as they had > known the same friends for the last ten years, half their life- > times. And, he wanted to introduce her to his new girlfriend whom > he thought would be "the keeper". (i.e. the one to marry). > ------------------------ > Event 2. At 3 a.m. in the morning after this Party that my daughter > didn't attend, six of them were coming home in an overloaded car > when another car smashed into them at speed, running a red light. > A...... and a girl were killed instantly. H...... died three hours > later, his parents said there was not a visible injury on him. One > friend went to Intensive Care in a critical condition, and another > had a fractured pelvis. Only H.......s' cousin was > uninjured...physically, that is. He was driving. There were no > witnesses. All were 20 years old. > ----------------------------------- > My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel > the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still > continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can > never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I > should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. > > So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had > done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the > Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma > and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling > miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she > would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and > A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there > security? where is there meaning? Not just safety for myself and my > family physically, but it occurred to me how vulnerable I was also - > if anything should happen to any of them....... > -------------------------------------- > I was corresponding with a dhamma friend about other matters and > mentioned what had happened. The friend was kind and helpful, and > mentioned some instances in their own life and how they had handled > things, and also mentioned suffering/attachment and detachment. I > printed the Useful Posts on attachment (lobha) from dsg and read > them on the plane to Bangkok. I took Ninas' books "Cetasikas" > and "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" to read about Lobha. I found an > article by Ven. K.S. Dhammananda called "Is Death really > frightening?" which was suitable for my daughter. > I also read "Death: A Buddhist Perspective" by Malcolm Huxter and I > dug out a book I owned "Living in the Light of Death" by Larry > Rosenberg. A book by a Samatha-Vipassana meditation teacher, teaching > Death Awareness. > A mixed bag - just what seemed pertinent and came easily to hand. > Many of the writers valued Death-Contemplation ....... it certainly > brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and > also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant > (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. > I searched for other teachings.....anything > relevant.....anything that might help my daughter (and myself). > Having been a Christian until a few years ago, I had conscientously > brought both my son and daughter up to be Christians.......Church, > Sunday School, Church Youth Groups, Confimation, Communion, Christian > Schools. (So much energy expended going the wrong way....) > I now had a different perspective on the events than I would have had > as a Christian, but as yet was unable to articulate it convincingly > even to myself. I wanted to find a bridge between my world view and > that of my daughter..... I knew from my own experiences in Critical > Incident, Trauma, and Grief Counselling that she would need > immediate emotional first-aid, and then most support in the weeks and > months following the funeral - when everyone had gone back to their > own lives, and the boys seemed forgotten...... > ------------------------------------ > Now this is probably kid-stuff to most on this list, who have years > and years of experience in Buddhism. And, no doubt, I also had read > about attachment many times before - but it didn't mean very much to > me until now....(How could I have not noticed that the whole world is > pervaded with tanha, lobha, raga and any of its other names?) I > think it was in coming to Buddhism from a religion where 'God is > Love' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself' and the greatest virtue > was 'to love', and the greatest crime was 'not to love' ........and > then living in a world that revolves around acquisition of things and > people, it is hard to quickly come to an understanding about > Attachment. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, > excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be > bland tasteless unsalted porridge? > > Looking up the meaning in "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by > Nyanatiloka Mahathera, I found the main meaning was listed under > Tanha (craving or thirst) - so MANY kinds of tanha, (the 8th link in > the paticcasamuppada) and with other meanings under Lobha > (attachment), Raga (lust or greed) and abhijjha (covetousness). > > Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the > statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all > its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up > attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to > possessions...... > Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, > and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." > > So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins > to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more > powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from > detection........ > ------------- > On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the > scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory > where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; > I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my > ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha > auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, > well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not > gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of > Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of > grieving parents where there are still-born or neo-natal baby > deaths. (indeed, the Emergency Response Mental Health Team would have > quickly attended to any young mother carrying a dead child from house > to house in my area, wanting to borrow mustard seeds and asking who > had died in the house. She would have legally regulated, medicated > and hospitalised with some diagnosis - perhaps depression). Possibly > even charged by police with 'interfering with a dead body'.......... > > And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of > your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best > for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? > And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof > from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, > indifference? > Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ > > This is probably how I was up until I arrived in Bangkok, full of > strong emotions and questions, to people who would view all of this > from a wider perspective, and who would speak the truth to > me........ Hope to add more of what I learned and came to understand > soon........ > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Chris, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > > > Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by > the > > > moderators? > > > I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to > take > > > a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was > unexpectedly > > > admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. > > > > I sincerely hope he's OK....you've certainly been having a few tests > > lately.... I'm just reflecting on K.Sujin's reminders about thinking > > about/helping the others with kusala (no translation;-) instead of > > dwelling on one's own unpleasant feelings as can happen so > easily..... > > > > Please don't you or anyone ever feel any hurry or need at all to > reply to > > anything I say here... > > > > > I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening > in > > > clusters........ > > > > I think it comes back to those complex conditions that kom > explained so > > well..remember his weather analogy? Remember too, that the 'things' > are > > just momentary vipaka (results of kamma) followed by kusala and > akusala > > accumulations..... > > > > The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation > > > people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things > come > > > in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I > > > suppose...... > > > > In any language, i hope you get a good rest and break this weekend > and > > that your brother and other family members do too. > > > > metta, > > Sarah > > ======== 11443 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Thank you Mike. That is indeed the case! Best, Robert Ep. ==== --- Mike Brotherton wrote: > Robert, > You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing happen to > me. > It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. > > Mindful lurker, > Mike B. > > > Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens > over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======= > > > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > > as follows. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > > aadimaaha." > > > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > > I wanted to save time. > > > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > > on this list. > > > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > > figurative speech. > > > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > > consciousness here. > > > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > > fields of sciences. > > > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > > bit longer. > > > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > > general readers. > > > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > > link. > > > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11444 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Dear Nina, Your description of Varanasi brought back fond memories of the craziness there. We were led for what seemed like hours by a boy to a private session with silk merchants, and I thought the whole trip I was going to be killed and robbed in that order. Well it was just a pleasant sales pitch with a cup of tea, and managed to eventually get back to the street -- only after ordering $200 worth of silk clothing which turned out not to fit correctly. I also fondly recall being stuffed on a bus with no bathroom breaks for most of 9 hours bouncing to the North of India in a seat with no knee room and three members of an Indian family shoved in next to me, my knees up in my throat. I thought I would require hospitalization but I turned out to be fine. There were also a few goats on the bus. Well, thanks for activating my 'India File' in my brain. And thanks for sharing! Best, Robert Ep. =================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Betty, all those crowds in Varanasi, lots of hawkers, no rest. I was so > impressed the first time I was there many years ago, with Phra Dhammadharo. > He exclaimed with enthusiasm: exactly like the Buddha's time, nothing has > changed. I found it all overwhelming. We can be reminded of dukkha: where > are all those people going, where are we all going: to rebirth, and then, > death again. You probably did not go to the holy places, because there it is > quiet, no vendors there, it is forbidden. It is helpful to go with friends > you can discuss dhamma with.This time I did not go around in Varanasi, but > we had a lot of Dhamma talks with A. Sujin in the hotel. > Lodewijk and I also had aversion when people were pushing so much near the > buses, rather frightening, but all that is quickly forgotten. A. Sujin once > explained: when you have dosa because of being pushed by a beggar girl, it > is conditioned by conceit: how can she treat me like that? She is pushing > me. Akusala arises because it is conditioned, but we should not take it too > much to heart or find it too important. It arises and is then gone > immediately. Sarah and I used to talk about it that we better not dwell too > long on what is gone and create big stories out of it. Then we make the > aversion worse. > There are very few tourists nowadays and when poor people see buses or cars > they come at once. Not all of them push or behave badly. Lodewijk bought > souvenirs and had some nice conversation with them, they made him laugh. At > all the holy sites we were sitting very quietly, having dhamma discussions, > walking around. Savatthi is so peaceful, you can walk around quietly. It all > depends where you are in India. Lodewijk and I always wish to return there, > feel nostalgic about it. We talk about India almost every day, just like > Jaran's father who also loves India. I do wish you will enjoy India next > time. Best wishes from Nina. > > > 11445 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice, beings and contact Dear Jon, If I haven't already answered this, thank you for the clarification on what you were saying the 'pronouncements' were not useful for, that is, telling whether or not someone was actually enlightened. I have to ask, though: don't we all have to draw such conclusions in order to choose to listen to a 'wise friend well versed in the Dhamma'? And how can we know whether that person is a good advisor or not, if we do not have either a useful tradition to rely on, or a trustworthy instinct to rely on? I believe that both are viable, while it is clear to me that you believe that akusala can subtly pervade all areas of life and that our 'feelings' about whether something is headed in the right direction or not are inherently deceptive. A view I respect, by the way, and have been caused to pause and think about. I have felt strongly that the Mahayana tradition has great authenticity and wisdom in its living lineage, as I also feel about the Theravadan tradition. I have some trust in the lineage holders of both traditions. Plus, I have allowed myself to trust in teachers just based on their apparent depth and wisdom to me. I do however understand your view about such things. So I will just repeat my question, which is meant respectfully and with curiosity: how can you be sure that your interpretation of the suttas, and the advice you get from 'wise friends' is kusala and heading one in the right direction, if you do not believe in using either tradition or instinct to make that determination? Thanks, In Dhamma, Robert Ep. ======================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > I don't know enough about the teachings of other traditions to > > comment, > > > but with respect Rob, I don't think the pronouncements you mention > > should > > > carry any weight in coming to a conclusion (if one felt the need to do > > > so). > > > > Hi Jon. > > The only conclusion I guess one would want to come to is 'how to > > practice or put > > into practice' the Buddha's teachings in order to reach the end of > > suffering. > > > > Anyway, thanks for at least trying to answer my questions. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > I may not have been clear in my answer. What I meant was that > pronouncements of self-enlightenment do not carry any weight as far as > coming to a conclusion on whether the person has indeed attained > enlightenment, assuming we felt the need to come to any conclusion on that > score at all anyway (the implication being that I can see no benefit in > trying to come to a conclusion on that question -- I happen not to believe > that someone can know this about another, absent special powers, perhaps). > > Sorry that you felt that my answers were not useful (not my intention). > Please follow up if you wish, as I am always happy to explain my position > better. > > Jon 11446 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of rocks, namas and rupas -ANDERS --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > R:> And what > > is the characteristic of nibbana as an object? I have always thought of > > nibbana > > as a state in which ignorance has been removed, not an object. I don't > > quite > > understand what kind of object it is meant to be, and why it is an > > object rather > > than a state. > ..... > Hmm...as object, I think we can only say it is the unconditioned > ‘deathless’ reality...the opposite to what is usually experienced. At any > moment of panna, there is no ignorance and there is a glimpse of a > reality. Ignorance is a mental factor that either arises or doesn’t with > each citta. I won't go on for long about Nibbana -- I understand that it may be a distraction and not considered useful. But since it is the endpoint of a very long journey, I'd like to at least understand what is meant by it. I find it hard to understand the value of a reality which is 'glimpsed' but remains distant and is never 'entered into' as an actual experience. I also don't understand what kind of 'object' it would be, as an unconditioned reality. Saying that 'it' is deathless makes it sound like it has an independent existence in some other realm that we are not a part of, but which we glimpse. If this is the case, it leaves me even more confused, which is why I will drop it if no one has a simple answer that will quiet my mind for the time being. Thank you, Sarah, for you answer in any case. It makes it a bit more clear to me what is meant by the experience of Nibbana for the arahat. I guess I'll probably have to wait until I glimpse it myself, and I'm not holding my breath [no yoga puns intended]. > R:> I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that > it > > was from > > you and not from Jon. > ..... > Am I beginning to sound like Jon I wonder???Is that good or bad??? Ha ha, it may just be my lack of discernment. I still > haven’t detected any meanness in this or any post of yours. Oh, thank you, well I'm very glad. Good points > and questions and I realize that though nibbana and parinibbana don’t seem > very useful as topics to study for some of us, for others like yourself, > the understanding of these areas affects the consideration of all other > dhammas. Yes, I appreciate your seeing that. This is a very good description of how it feels to me, and though I understand that it shouldn't be necessary in a sense, I personally find it very hard to feel clear about the path and move forward unless I have at least a temporary concept of what the destination is about. Perhaps this is because of the different dhamma backgrounds we > all come from. Probably that, and also different types of temperament. I am very mystical in nature, and have little patience with the mechanics of things unless I feel that they are connected to something transcendent. This may be a conceit of mine that will be dropped one day, but my personality seems wired that way at present. > Hope I’ve clarified the points a little as I understand them and thanks > for all your other posts. Hope you've caught up by now:-) I'm afraid I will never catch up with dsg. But at least I've made some progress and am a bit in the swing of it again. I'll do my best, and thanks as always for your responses. I know Jon says I can't know for sure, but I feel your messages are always very kusala to me. : ) [Actually Jon's too......] Best, Robert Ep. 11447 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from Bkk and Rob Ep's 'brusque' post --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > Sorry about the 'busque' heading which should of course be a 'brusque' > heading.....(hope my students aren't reading;-) > > S. ha ha. well busque is fine with me, but thanks for the correction. I've added the 'r' above, for those with spelling clingings. : ) Thanks, Robert Ep. 11448 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from Bkk and Rob Ep's 'busque' post Hi Sarah. I'm working my way backwards through posts, so my comments are out of order too. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your message here, and your report on Jon's response too. Yes, my interpretation is a bit sexist, he's right. For me that's a bit refreshing, since I always fancy myself a feminist. It makes me feel so 'human'. : ) I'd better quit before I get even more jovial and self-satisfied and call down more kamma on my head. I'm not sure why I'm in such a giddy mood at the moment. Best, Robert Ep. ================== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep & friends, > > We’re back in Hong Kong and Christine is back in Oz (not the Wizard’s) > after an action-packed dhamma discussion weekend, both at the Foundation > w/ K.Sujin and other friends including Sukin and Jaran and light-hearted > dhamma-related ‘chats’ together in the garden of our hotel...We got back > midday yesterday and Jon had a quick change and straight into the office > to catch up on legal drafts waiting for him. Meanwhile I was straight into > teaching some teenage boys and the more down to earth language of what > ‘sucks’and doesn’t ‘suck’ and what is still ‘cool’ or no longer ‘cool’ > rather than the niceties of definitions of ‘kusala’ and ‘akusala’. > > I know Christine was meanwhile going to be straight off her flight in > Brisbane (after a very long trip and change of flights in Sydney) and into > the hospital where she works, but she'll be adding her own far wittier > account and maybe Jaran will add his, if he managed to get the stand-by > flight back to Singapore. > > Different stories, different concepts, but the same realities and > different moments of vipaka (result of kamma) followed by likes, dislikes > and thinking. We discussed a lot about what is taken for being a good > result, such as a holiday on the beach in Samui or pleasant surroundings, > or bad result, such as an accident or worse, which are really only very > brief experiences through different doorways such as the eye or > body-sense, followed by the story. Each brief moment of vipaka is > conditioned by kamma (with so many other complex conditions at play as Rob > K has pointed out), that there’s really nothing to be envious of at all. > Hence more understanding of realities and conditions leads to less envy > and less taking the ‘world’ for selves or beings. The sotapanna has no > more wrong view of self and issa (envy) has been totally eradicated. > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Apologies in advance for being kind of brusque in this post. > > Explanation at the > > end. : ) > > I’m going to leave the meat for later as I have some office work I need to > attend to first;-( > > Believe me, meanwhile, that your idea of ‘brusque’ or ‘harsh’ is always > very polite and considerate from my point of view. I prefer and > appreciate the “I strongly disagree because of a) b) c)..” response to the > “thankyou for trying to answer my questions > ” or “ I’ve read your response and no comment ” > replies;-) > > > I'm sorry I sound kind of mean in this post. I realized midway that it > > was from > > you and not from Jon. We've been tough with each other lately > > [male thing > > ], but I have a tendency to want to be a little nicer with you. > > Jon feels this is a little sexist ....meanwhile, as I mentioned, my > students are pretty tough with me, (especially after a long holiday when > I’ve set them lots of ‘sucks’ homework and have to face the > consequences;-) ), so be as tough or nice as you like... > > > Although I suspect that you are actually just as tough. > > It's just my delusion as usual. : ) > > I appreciate the good intentions. > > Best wishes for now...will catch up w/ the meat from your post, Dan’s and > any others later. > > Sarah > > p.s a computer that works - my definition of 'bliss' for today;-) > ===================================== 11449 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Hi Rob K., Working my way backwards and catching up [or down].... I appreciate your good description below. I assume you would think that one's 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also be something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then really, it is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better or worse? Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Rob, > From another angle: > One of the descriptions of the khandas given in the > Patisambhidhimagga is that they are alien, not us. What discerment > discerns is the utter anattaness of all dhammas. If we have the idea > of me doing something to get somewhere this is being caught in the > whirl of view. But dhammas arise because of conditions, there is not > even a hint of self who could make them arise. > Now you are studying Dhamma and there is right effort arising > together with right concentration that supports right view that can > understand this. This is at the theoretical level but these factors > can develop to much higher degrees. Usually people want high levels > of concentration because this feels different from normal life - it > is calmer- and so one perceives progress. But the progress of > vipassana is about wearing away wrong view - and any concentration > that arises with vipassana is always associated with right insight. > > You perhaps find it a little worrying that there is no self who can > decide to do this or that to make sure he is going in the right > direction. But seeing this leads to detachment from the idea of self > and that is the beginning of insight. > I think you don't feel concerend that, for instance, there is seeing > whenever the eyes are open - no one can stop it occuring. But all > dhammas , all realities are the same: they arise by conditions and > cease when those conditions are not present. Understanding must > comprehend whatever dhammas - whether kusala or akusala or vipaka or > kiriya - arise as being essentially the same; that is they are > anatta, dukkha and anicca. Then one doesn't turn away from whatever > arises and > there is right effort that assists investigation. > best wishes > robert > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > Give the clarifications below, which I read as you saying that > there basically is > > no practice, there is only the arising of discernment or > understanding, brought on > > by the concordance of factors, what is the practitioner given to do > or understand > > in order to accord with or bring about those conditions? Or does > it in fact have > > nothing to do with the practitioner and there is basically nothing > to do. If one > > studies the suttas, that is because the conditions have arisen to > cause this, and > > one cannot decide to study them, or refrain from studying them. > The conditions > > will make the decision. Or is there something that we are in fact > called upon to > > do in order to create the proper environment for these conditions > to arise? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ==================== > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob Ep > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > > I still don't understand how our limitations in discerning > dictates > > > > against > > > > practice. Whether or not we are able to presently discern the > reality > > > > of each > > > > moment from moment to moment, the attempt to do so will lead to > greater > > > > ability. > > > > I know that you don't believe this from what you have said, but > still > > > > don't > > > > understand your reasoning very well. > > > > > > I think you are saying that- > > > a. The path taught by the Buddha involves seeing clearly each > > > moment-to-moment reality as it arises; and > > > b. The way this seeing clearly is developed is by concentrating > on the > > > present moment. > > > > > > I believe that (a) above is not what we are taught as the path. > I think > > > what we are told is that our ignorance and wrong view about > realities has > > > to be dispelled. This implies *sufficiently* knowing realites so > that > > > there is no longer any room for doubt about the matter. > > > > > > As to (b), I can only repeat the comments in my post of a minute > ago. > > > Concentrating on the present moment is concentrating with existing > > > misconceptions and preconceptions. Awareness does not arise just > because > > > we have sat down to concentrate on things. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a > moment to > > > > moment > > > > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can > be > > > > described as a > > > > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique > to do > > > > the same, > > > > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however > awkward, is > > > > exactly what > > > > is called for. If meditating is something I do, it becomes > part of > > > > daily living, > > > > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any > other daily > > > > activity. > > > > > > As I said in an earlier post to you-- > > > > > > >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe > there are > > > >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the > suttas and > > > >> 'discerning the present moment'. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > > > > > ====================== > > > > > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 11450 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) Dear Jon, Thanks for the clarification below. I think you are being truly consistent in what you say here. If such is the case, then there is no practice. I assume, as I asked Rob K. in my last post, that you would then feel that there is nothing to be done by these kandhas including 'consciousness' making a decision or exercising will, and that in fact the kandhas are on 'automatic pilot' being buffetted completely by conditions in one or another direction. When it is time for panna to arise, it surely will, if the conditions dictate that more painful kamma will be created, nothing to be done. It seems to me that with this understanding that there is predestination and complete determinism. There is no moment in which the 'sentient' quality of consciousness has any effect that has not been strictly caused by a mechanical arising condition. So fate is determined in advance by the causes that will come from prior causes and we need do nothing but wait? I paint this seemingly stark picture because I want to know if this is in fact the case from your standpoint, or is there another way in which the human desire to follow the path and know the Dhamma plays some sort of active role? I am not saying, by the way, that either version is right or wrong. I am just trying to sort things out. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Continuing (with apologies for the jumble at the end of the previous post) > > > Is it really enough to understand that consciousness is a moment to > > moment > > phenomena? *Any* attempt to apply the suttas to daily life can be > > described as a > > 'technique', just as meditating may be described as a technique to do > > the same, > > and it seems to me that some sort of application, however awkward, is > > exactly what > > is called for. > > I pretty much agree with this observation. As I said in an earlier post > to you-- > > >> As far as 'specific practices' are concerned, I don't believe there are > >> any given by the Buddha, and I include here studying the suttas and > >> 'discerning the present moment'. > > It's nice to know we can find something to agree on! > > > If meditating is something I do, it becomes part of > > daily living, > > and is therefore at least as eligible for discernment as any other daily > > activity. > > No-one is telling anyone they shouldn't meditate. The discussion is about > how the Buddha's teaching is to be correctly read/interpreted. > > Jon 11451 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Compassion and Detachment Dear All, I find a little confusion between what I thought were universally accepted meanings for qualities to be encouraged, and the different interpretation that I think buddhism seems to place upon them. Compassion is one of those qualities. I began considering 'compassion' initially as a result of looking at 'attachment' (saraga) and 'detachment' (viveka, and viraga), in relation to the reactions of myself and others after the deaths of the young friends. [Start anywhere in buddhism and everything leads to everything else (Just as attachment has led to kilesas, vedana, anicca, anatta, dukkha, kamma, conditions and roots - Nothing can be compartmentalised or seen in isolation).] But, how can we be 'compassionate' and 'detached' at the same time? Compassion seems to carry with it overtones of warmth and love; detachment seems to carry coldness, unfeeling. Or, can we only be compassionate if we are detached? Wouldn't non-attached be a more appropriate choice of word, given that detached can be a derogatory term, meaning uninvolved, callous, indifferent (or even mentally unbalanced)? And doesn't compassion need action, to differentiate it from common pity, or emotional self-indulgence? the definition in Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7):(taken from dsg post 3774) "Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering in others. Its function is not being able to bear others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering. it succeeds when it causes cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces sorrow." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: 'cruelty'/'non-cruelty' ...... in oneself, or in others? Is any physically helpful action implied here, or just introspection? What about tragic happenings? Are they included in the term 'cruelty'? Probably not, because they cannot be controlled and 'caused to subside'....... So, this is probably about introspection/contemplation.......not 'action'.... 'Promoting the removal of suffering in others' - Yes, I see now that this is probably what the Buddha was doing in sending Kisagotami around from house to house? But what about the story of Sirima? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dictionary Meanings of Compassion: From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn) Compassion - a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering; the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Detachment - avoiding emotional involvement [wyn: {withdrawal}] In the Manual of buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Nyanatiloka Mahathera Compassion is listed as Karuna Karuna is listed as Compassion Detachment - 1. viveka: detachment, seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; (2) mental detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous things; (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi- viveka). - 2. virága: fading away, detachment; absence of lust, dispassionateness. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: I have read the Useful Post on 'compassion': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 and I am having a little difficulty with the following paragraphs in that post: "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this moment are merely these different mental and physical phenomena, so we know from this experience that this is how it must be for others too, even though we don't directly experience the other's compassion, for example." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Are you saying: 'There is no-one here or there anyway.......so, why bother...'? --------------------------------------------------------------------- metta, Christine 11452 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/23/02 11:00:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear All, > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > morality)? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you need to put that book down! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > all responsible somehow........ > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We know we're on the right track when things don't all seem wonderful. We know we've slipped into a ditch on the side of that track when things all look terrible! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > progressing).......... > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Impossible. The capacity is there. But don't worry about making progress; just pay attention to what's going on, wherever and however we are. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > of > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > - > water-element? > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > (jara). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching intently, waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment. -------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11453 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/24/02 12:08:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed > with. > > To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider the > difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and > *observation of realities/dhammas*. > > By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed attention > or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what is > happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is mind > with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed to a > particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might be > directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. > > Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that such > directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It seems > to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of self > etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there be a strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the teachings on > not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to seeing > them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would have to > disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. Mere intellectual understanding of these teachings is not nearly enough, though it is a help and an important beginning. ----------------------------------------------------- And unless> > we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of kusala > and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the > consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be sure. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No disagreement on this. (I'm waiting now for the punchline which will make me want to withdraw all the ready agreement I've been giving!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > > I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume or > infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general circumstances of > the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the mind > is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by > tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and > pervasive nature of akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think this is so. I don't presume that many of my mind-moments are kusala. In fact, I suspect that almost all of them are flawed. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but perhaps > I've said enough controversial things for one post! > > I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I'm afraid you must be mightily disappointed with those I have provided herein! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed to > you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your posts! =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11454 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 11:57pm Subject: Re: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death,/RobEp Dear Rob, I found your post very moving and comforting. My daughter Sarah is doing well, though a little tired from supporting others, working, and going to University. But tired is a good thing at the moment. And she has house guests - another exchange student from New York, female this time, and a friends' cousin from New Zealand. Half a dozen of H..... and A....... mates come around most evenings, and many old friendships have been renewed. One is not doing so well - the boy that held everyone else up before and during the funeral, and who gave the Eulogy for both his best friends, but she is keeping a watch and he won't be left alone to deal with this over the coming year. Thank you for Ajahn Brams' story. You say: " I thought it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our lives can sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma." Exactly so, Rob, I found this event, which didn't affect me directly, caused a reconsidering of just what is/is not worthwhile in life, and, among other things, made me thankful that the Dhamma is still available relatively unchanged and all of us have further time to study it. I think Ajahn Brams is talking about the Lady Patacara. She became a Nun and eventually, an Arahat. http://www.buddhanet.net/28lbud.htm Thanks again Rob, I'll show (my) Sarah your Post, she will also be touched by it, Metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > I'm working my way backwards through posts, and was just shocked to read about the > tragic events in your and your daughter's life. I'm sorry you had to go through > that. > > It is true this life is full of sufferings, and we have all had our share, but > none of what you talked about seemed like 'kid stuff' to me. I think your balance > in the midst of all this is admirable and shows some real steadiness in your > understanding of the teachings you have been working so hard with. > > By a strange coincidence, a friend from Australia just sent me a CD with lectures > by Ajahn Bhramavamso on Theravada and meditation. He told one story which some > here may be familiar with about the Buddha and a woman who came to him. I thought > it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our lives can > sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma. > > He spoke of a woman who had had the worst possible tragedies befall her all at > once during the time of the Buddha. Her husband had been killed and she was > trying to go visit her father with her two children. A terrible storm wound up > killing both children and on the road she received news that her father had also > died in the storm. She went totally mad and wandered around naked from her own > encounter with the flood for days. Eventually by karmic conditions she wandered > in this state into the grove where the Buddha was teaching his disciples. Those > guarding the periphery wanted to keep her out, but the Buddha saw what was > happening and told them to let her in. He gave her a cloak to cover herself with > and gave her a place to sit and receive the teachings. With nothing left of her > former life, within a short period of time she reached full enlightenment and > became an arahat. > > I just thought that at this particular moment when I have been thinking about this > story, that you might want to hear about it. > > I'm very sorry for you having to have gone through the current circumstances, and > also wish your daughter the very best. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11455 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... O.K. Howard - once I put the book down.... get up out of the ditch..... and hop onto the lily pad....... Hang on! How was I holding the book, or was that before the transmogrification? Howard, are you working too hard, my friend? <<<<<<"Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching intently, waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment.">>>>>> Something vaguely Zen about this, is that allowed??? "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? I'm quite impressed that one can just lie in wait for enlightenment and zap it as it passes by....... I think you have something here, Howard .....We just have to find a 'bait' to entice it by......... Hmmmm, May I be the agent for your Speaking Tour? We could plan Workshops, Retreats, Support Groups for the "I was THIS close brigade", and ........... I just had to erase about ten lines that even I thought was over-doing it........ :-) ( And you know I'm on 'sensitive' ground with the Moderators.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/23/02 11:00:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > morality)? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think you need to put that book down! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > > all responsible somehow........ > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We know we're on the right track when things don't all seem wonderful. > We know we've slipped into a ditch on the side of that track when things all > look terrible! > ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > progressing).......... > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Impossible. The capacity is there. But don't worry about making > progress; just pay attention to what's going on, wherever and however we are. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > of > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > - > > water-element? > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > (jara). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching intently, > waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard 11456 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:32am Subject: To Sarah F from Sarah A Chris, pls share this note with your Sarah just if you think it’s appropriate..if not, at least you may enjoy a Pali break;-)) Dear Sarah F, Firstly, I was so very sorry to hear about the terrible accident and the loss of your dear friends. I’m sure this is a very difficult time for you, other friends and especially for the families of those who died. Often when we hear of such tragic events, life seems very unfair. Whether or not we believe in God or think that what happens in life is a result of kamma, these young people didn’t ‘deserve’ to have this accident and it’s very natural to feel angry about it. Sometimes, however, I think we just have to accept that such tragedies happen and it’s quite useless to try to work out all the reasons why which are, in any case, beyond our comprehension. We can perhaps just say that what happened must have done so for reasons we cannot know and then move on and be grateful we have the chance today to still consider what is really worthwhile in life. I’ve been particularly impressed by your example of consideration and helpfulness to others at this time. Instead of wallowing in self pity, which would have been quite natural, you’ve been helping to give support to other friends, visiting parents, preparing a photo album, I believe, and helping with the Eulogy and taking care of house guests all the while. I know you’re also working and going to Uni. I doubt I would have shown such maturity and noble qualities and may I say how inspiring this example is. I also know that your mum’s first reaction after the crash was to cancel her trip to Bangkok and to stay and give you support. Again out of consideration, you encouraged her to join us and we’re very grateful for this. It’s such a joy to spend time with her and to discuss life’s priorities. Because she was still reflecting a lot on death, we discussed how in many ways it is not so different from what we’re experiencing now. We have an idea that our fun and good feelings will last, but actually we can see that nothing lasts at all. In this way we can say there is death all the time followed by new experiences. I know you have been brought up as a Christian, as I was, but I don’t think we have to mind about being called Christian, Buddhist or anything else. We can just learn a little more about life as it is. We may think that your friends suffered in a horrific way, but in Bangkok we discussed how really at any time, including the end of life, there are just different experiences and feelings as there are now. We don’t even know that your friends experienced any particular unpleasantness, as events may have happened too fast. We would say, from a Buddhist point of view, that life will be continuing in one form or other just like it is for us now. We also discussed how when we feel so sad or unhappy how really we’re just thinking of ourselves and our own loss of pleasant experience. When we help our friends or the families as you’ve been doing, at these times there’s no sadness or ‘loss’. We discussed 4 particular qualities, often stressed by Buddhists, which are loving-kindness, compassion, joy in others’ good fortune and detachment. What these qualities really refer to are again the ability to put others’ needs, suffering, good fortune or difficulties before our own. When we think with these qualities, we feel ‘light’ and not bogged down in sorrow. Sometimes people think that ‘detachment’ sounds a little cold, but if we think of it as acceptance and ‘letting go’ of our expectations and grief for a little while, perhaps we can see its value too. I must say I always find your mum is a real inspiration when it comes to considering others’ needs too. Of course, we’re all human and there will be tough times ahead as in any grieving process. Sometimes it can even be a kindness to ask others for help and let them have a chance to show these qualities. I also learn a lot from your mum’s great sense of humour and we also laughed together . We may not feel very humourous when the going is so tough, but I think it can help if we don’t take ourselves too seriously. It’s natural to have some fun as well;-) We can also use the tough times to reflect on all our values. What may have seemed so important a couple of weeks ago, may seem less important now. We’re always going to have ups and downs, good and bad experiences, happiness and sadness in life. We have the idea that we can fix life to a certain extent through our careers, relationships, material goods and so on, but as you’ve seen, anything can happen at any time however well fixed or managed our lives may seem. Perhaps this is why your mum so wisely gives so much priority to really trying to understand life a little better. Sarah, I know you’re very busy and thank you if you’ve patiently found time to read my note (sorry, it's got rather long;-)). We heard that you may visit Hong Kong in May and we’d love to meet you if you are not too busy. Please don’t feel any need to respond before then, but of course you’re very welcome if you’d like to ask any questions or make any comments. Thank you again for your generosity in sparing your mum for her trip and for your inspiring example to your friends. Best wishes, Sarah A. ====================================================== 11457 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:40am Subject: welcome Mike B Dear Mike B, Thanks for indicating your presence and giving yourself the 'B' without being asked;-) Yes, the Mikes are rapidly catching up with the Robs.... though there's no sign of the original Mike just now.....;-(( If I can encourage you to say a few words about yourself, your mindful lurking or interest here, I know everyone would be very glad. Thanks again for 'breaking the ice', Sarah p.s I used Jim's hyperlink to read Suan's article ========================================== --- Mike Brotherton wrote: > Robert, > You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing > happen to me. > It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. > > Mindful lurker, > Mike B. 11458 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:07am Subject: Re: To Sarah F from Sarah A Dear Sarah A, Thank you for your wise and caring words and your kindness in thinking of my daughter. It is a long time since I have felt so deeply moved by a letter. I had been thinking of trying to put down in writing what we had all talked about (formally and informally) in Bangkok, but you, Sarah, writing from the heart to my daughter, have included a far better precis than any feeble attempt on my part. I will certainly forward it to her and I am sure she will wish to respond to you as soon as possible. You and Jon, and all others on this list whom I have already met, or whom I am yet to meet, can truthfully be described as kalyána-mitta (Admirable Friends). [As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues is actually the whole of the holy life."} Gratitude to all of you have given support, both on and off list. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Chris, pls share this note with your Sarah just if you think it's > appropriate..if not, at least you may enjoy a Pali break;-)) > > Dear Sarah F, > > Firstly, I was so very sorry to hear about the terrible accident and the > loss of your dear friends. I'm sure this is a very difficult time for you, > other friends and especially for the families of those who died. > > Often when we hear of such tragic events, life seems very unfair. Whether > or not we believe in God or think that what happens in life is a result of > kamma, these young people didn't `deserve' to have this accident and it's > very natural to feel angry about it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11459 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah F from Sarah A Dear Christine, Thank you for your kind words too...... I hope the note may be a condition for some useful discussion in Queensland too. Chris, I was just prompted after I read your follow-up note to Rob Ep about your Sarah, but really wasn't intending or wishing to pre-empt your own reflections from Bkk which I'm sure will be in your usual witty and moving style, so please continue with these in your own good time;-) Enjoying your other posts too, Sarah ======================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah A, > > Thank you for your wise and caring words and your kindness in > thinking of my daughter. It is a long time since I have felt so > deeply moved by a letter. I had been thinking of trying to put down > in writing what we had all talked about (formally and informally) in > Bangkok, but you, Sarah, writing from the heart to my daughter, have > included a far better precis than any feeble attempt on my part. I > will certainly forward it to her and I am sure she will wish to > respond to you as soon as possible. > > You and Jon, and all others on this list whom I have already met, or > whom I am yet to meet, can truthfully be described as kalyána-mitta > (Admirable Friends). > [As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This > is half of the holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends, > companions, & colleagues." > "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having admirable people as > friends, companions, & colleagues is actually the whole of the holy > life."} > > Gratitude to all of you have given support, both on and off list. > > metta, > Christine 11460 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:41am Subject: Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's/RobEp....... Dear RobEp, My first sensible reply to your really much appreciated post seems to have vanished into cyberspace. So, because of that this happens, if that hadn't happened neither would this ....... is there a faint echo of something there? :-) - just one further question..... You say: "When you see each detail just as it is, without reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, but by then you'll probably be an arahat." How can I work that bit into the 'tongue-zap' enlightenment program? Would you like to be a guest lecturer, I feel you'd go really well with the Support Group......... :-) I think I need to have a glass of hot milk and retire for the night. Sunday night here, MondayMania already....... much metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Geez, Christine, > What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope you're having fun, > you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. > > As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you really, really > just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say > congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and not on the path > is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of imperfect 'stuff' > they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, primed for > progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are seeing so far > is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, without > reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, > but by then you'll probably be an arahat. > > Love, > Robert Ep. > > ==================== > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > morality)? > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > > all responsible somehow........ > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > progressing).......... > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > of > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > - > > water-element? > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > (jara). > > > > metta, > > Christine 11461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:20am Subject: India Ch 4, no. 2 India Ch 4, no. 2 We should understand what satipatthåna is and what the objects of satipatthana are. Satipatthåna is the development of insight, vipassanå, the direct understanding of all realities of our life, of citta, cetasika (mental factors arising with the citta) and rúpa. Only one citta at a time arises and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the same time, but when visible object is experienced, sound cannot be experienced at the same time. Acharn Sujin explained about the development of satipatthåna when we were sitting on the ground in the Jeta Grove, near the place where once the Buddha stayed. In the Jeta Grove he taught the Dhamma to the monks and to the layfollowers who visited him daily. Acharn Sujin said: ³Dhamma is what is real, it has no owner. There are two kinds of dhammas: nåma and rúpa. Hearing and sound arise and fall away very rapidly, can we slow them down? Sati can arise and be aware of them. In the beginning there cannot be awareness of all realities that can be experienced through the six doors, because understanding has to be developed. Sati can arise and paññå can begin to understand realities, there is no other way. Thinking arises in between moments of awareness and there is bound to be doubt about realities, because doubt has not been eradicated. When sati arises, pañña must arise together with it. We should have understanding of the characteristics of realities and of satipatthåna and this can condition the arising of sati and pañña that directly understands nåma and rúpa. This is not intellectual understanding, but it is paññå of another level that penetrates thoroughly the characteristics of realities, that realizes them as only elements, dhåtus.² How do we experience the body? We think of our whole body but what we take for our body consists of different groups of rúpas. The rúpas that are the four Great Elements arise in each group of rúpas no matter whether they are of the body or rúpas outside, and these are: the Element of Earth or solidity, the Element of Water or cohesion, the Element of Fire or heat and the Element of Wind or motion. In addition to these four there are other rúpas arising together with them in different combinations. Through touch three of these Great Elements can be directly experienced, one at a time, and these are: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, heat appearing as heat or cold, and motion appearing as motion or pressure. Cohesion cannot be experienced through touch, it can only be known through the mind-door. Hardness or heat are characteristics of rúpa, and these cannot be changed, no matter how we name them. We can experience the characteristics that appear without the need to think of them. In this way we can begin to consider in our own life what the Abhidhamma teaches. The Abhidhamma is not a dry subject that concerns theoretical knowledge, it deals with our life. We learn about nåma and rúpa through the study of the Abhidhamma, but this relates to daily life. Do characteristics of rúpa such as hardness, softness, heat or cold not appear all the time whenever we touch things? The purpose of the enumeration of different nåmas and rúpas is not merely to memorize them or to think of them, but to realize their true nature by the development of satipatthåna. Apart from the three rúpas of solidity, heat and motion that can be directly experienced in daily life, there are in addition four rúpas that appear all the time: visible object or colour, sound, odour and flavour. Also these rúpas arise in a group together with the four Great Elements and other rúpas. Thus, there are seven rúpas that appear time and again in daily life, they have characteristics that can be directly experienced without the need to name them or to think about them. We do not have to think of sound or odour in order to experience them, they appear just for a moment and then they disappear. We cannot cause their arising, they arise when there are the right conditions and then they disappear. We cannot prevent them from disappearing, and they are beyond control, non-self. Development of right understanding leads gradually, from the very beginning, to detachment until the ultimate stage, when arahatship is reached. First there will be detachment from the wrong view of self and later on other defilements will be abandoned, but this is a long way. We have accumulated ignorance for aeons and therefore there cannot be right understanding immediately. 11462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] tragedy and death Dear Christine, please tell your daughter that I sympathize with her loss. It was lovely of her to think immediately of you and that she insisted that you would go to Bgk. She also proved to have learnt from this experience; you never know the future, you cannot plan anything. Use every opportunity to learn. This reminds me of a very helpful post Num wrote to Purnomo after he lost his grandmother. Make your loss into a learning experience. op 23-02-2002 01:31 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: Ch: My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel > the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still > continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can > never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I > should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. > > So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had > done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the > Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma > and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling > miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she > would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and > A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there > security? where is there meaning? it certainly > brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and > also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant > (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, > excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be > bland tasteless unsalted porridge? N: The Buddha did not teach to try giving up attachment, that is forced, unnatural. Only the non-returner, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment has no more conditions for attachment to sense objects and no more aversion or sadness. When we are attached or sad we should not try not to have lobha or dosa, but we can have more understanding of their conditions, even though this is only intellectual understanding. When your daughter was thinking of your wellbeing there were mettå and compassion, at that moment no attachment, no sorrow. Then there is seeing, no sorrow, then hearing, no sorrow, then thinking of the tragedy, sorrow again. It helps to know that our life consists of various moments, and each of these have their own conditions. Thus, there is not a long lasting moment of sorrow, it comes and goes. This can help to a certain extent. There may be more moments that she thinks of others, such as the parents of the children, and then she does not think of her own sorrow. There is also a bitter truth: when we are sad because of the loss of a dear one, we cling to our own pleasant feeling we had in his/her company. Not everyone will be ready to accept this, it depends on the moment. Why was your daughter not in the car? It was not her time yet. It is conditioned, kamma and vipaka, but not everyone is ready to see this. Whatever happens is conditioned and nobody in the world can alter this. If we really understand this, it can be even conforting, taking away anxiety about things that may or may not happen. Ch: Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the > statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all > its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up > attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to > possessions...... > Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, > and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." N: As Robert K. pointed out in his explanation of the Dependent Origination, so long as there is ignorance there must be birth, old age, sickness and death. We just have to accept this. I was reading Ven. Bodhi's translation of the definition of patience; he translated adhivasana, endurance, as acceptance. At first I was surprised, but when thinking it over, it is good. When we accept the facts of life there is patience. He also had his share of dukkha: he was convinced that he should develop mindfulness of breath, this was very important to him, but he could not continue because of his sinus condition. But I am sure he learnt from this experience. > Ch: So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins > to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more > powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from > detection........ Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory > where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; > I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my > ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha > auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, > well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not > gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of > Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of > grieving parents. N: We should place the story of Sirima in the right context. The Buddha had compassion for her, preached to her and then she became a sotapanna. The Buddha wanted to give a lustful monk a pointed reminded of the transience of beauty and the lustful monk became an araht after his discourse, is that not compassion? We read about Sirima's cremation, attended by the Buddha and many monks, in the "Stories of the Mansions". Sirima who had been reborn a deva appeared with her retinue. And Kisagotami: this is just a reminder that suffering and death are part and parcel of life. Every family comes into close contact with loss. Is it true that attachment becomes less attractive? It depends on the moment, one moment less, at another moment it is attractive. A. Sujin always reminds us: we have to be sincere as to ourselves. She would also ask: do you see the disadvantage of lobha on the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, or on the level of patipatti, the practice? Ch: And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of > your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best > for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? > And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof > from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, > indifference? > Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ N: Immediate support and kindness are most valuable, did the Buddha not encourage metta and karuna, compassion? Detachment : this means detachment from self. This also implies, not being self seeking. Quite different from being indifferent or aloof. The first goal of the development of understanding is having less wrong view of self. It is not the eradication of attachment to people and things, that will take place, as you know, at the third stage of enlightenment. That is indeed very far away, maybe aeons. The Dhamma is not a fast working medicine curing all sorrow immediately. How fortunate you were in Bgk, I am sure it really helped you. Best wishes from Nina. 11463 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Robert, Thank you for responding. From reading the discourses, I have not found that the Buddha answered the question "is there a self?" "is there no self?" or "what is self?" "what am I?" and I also have not found the Buddha claimed if there is a self or not, or what self is. As I understand it, these questions and views lead to dukkha and do not lead to cessation of dukkha. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Epstein" To: Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > Dear Victor, > I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on the > subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. > > I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is there a > true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely states that > 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to function in > enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one who > is liberated. > > I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* to the > question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the question > of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a delusion. If > the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question of self > is no longer a problem, is it? > > I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has never > arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with either the > eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution of > 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being that is > given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. > > Best, > he who is called Robert Ep. > [at least around here] > > =============== > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > > Hello Ken, > > > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with > > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > > references. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > > Bhikkhu Sutta > > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the > > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because > > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, > > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into > > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't > > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > > defined. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from > > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > > resolute." > > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one > > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said > > in brief?" > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. [3] > > > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said > > in brief." > > > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > classified. > > > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be > > seen." > > > > Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got > > up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, > > keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, > > secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained > > in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here > > & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > > There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became > > another one of the arahants. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > > > Notes > > 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of > > resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the > > obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the > > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] > > > > 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] > > > > 3. See MN 72 [Go back] > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > > Samanupassana Sutta > > Assumptions > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or > > priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five > > clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case > > where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble > > ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard > > for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- > > assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or > > form as in the self, or the self as in form. > > "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or > > feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. > > > > "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, > > or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. > > > > "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing > > fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in > > fabrications. > > > > "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing > > consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in > > consciousness. > > > > "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And > > so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the > > appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the > > senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). > > > > "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is > > the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, > > touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the > > thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be > > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient > > nor non-percipient.' > > > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them > > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives > > rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of > > clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall > > not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be > > percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be > > neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > > > > > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > > > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > > > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > > > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > > > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, 11464 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:06am Subject: Re: The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Kirkpatrick Dear Robert How are you? You wrote: "...since vipaka is only of one jati- whether kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, and I ask only out of shear curiosity." I think you are referring to Section 370 in the Dhammasangani and Page 140 in Atthasalini regarding the term 'pandharam'. It is true that Buddhaghosa explained pre-emptively in Atthasalini why unhealthy mind (akusala cittam) is still called "luminous" in Section 370 by saying that even the akusala mind can be described as being "white/luminous" for reason of coming out of bhavanga mind (which goes by the name of the white luminous mind ). But, in Section 556 in Atthasalini, after having been reborn in the four types of rebirths (apaaya) lower than the human one, the akusala bhavanga is described as having unpleasant undesirable objects or stimuli (anittha and anitthamajjattaaramana). So the rebirth and the stimuli for the akusala bhavanga minds are unpleasant and undesirable. As such, even if we considered these akusala bhavanga minds to be luminous, they are luminous only in name, not in reality. Not only that, the context of the Section 49 in Ekakanipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya, and that of Section 370 in Dhammasangani and Page 140 in Atthasalini are also different. The context in the Section 49 is how the Buddha described the luminous bhavanga mind as being tarnished by akusala minds, which amounted to blaming the former for being the starting point for dirty javana minds. In short, the Buddha did not described akusala javana minds as "white luminous (pandharam)" in the context of Section 49. He called them blots. Therefore, in line with the context of the Section 49 of the Suttam,the commentary, and the subcommentary, I wrote in my sub- subcommentary that "only the bhavañga cittas of the human beings and the sensuous gods have the natural absence of blots that can also tarnish them from time to time." I hope my explanation helps. If you still need further discussion on this matter or have more points for me to resolve, please let me know. For now, it is already 3 a.m in Canberra, and I become very sleepy. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Suan, > I have just had the pleasure of reading your articles about luminous > mind at your website. Finally, thanks to your comments about > children/parents etc I understand what the Tika and commentaries were > getting at with this simile. > One point: where you say that lower realms bhavanga can't be > considered luminous because it is akusala vipaka citta. I can see > that this might be so , but since vipaka is only of one jati- whether > kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all > realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, > and I ask only out of shear curiosity . > best wishes > robert 11465 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > O.K. Howard - once I put the book down.... get up out of the > ditch..... and hop onto the lily pad....... Hang on! How was I > holding the book, or was that before the transmogrification? Howard, > are you working too hard, my friend? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > <<<<<<"Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching > intently, > waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment.">>>>>> > Something vaguely Zen about this, --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Had that in mind! ;-) --------------------------------------------------- is that allowed??? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'd strongly doubt that! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an arahant who had visited the naga realm. --------------------------------------------------------- > I'm quite impressed that one can just lie in wait for enlightenment > and zap it as it passes by....... > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm! But the waiting must be without expectation or anticipation. --------------------------------------------------------- > I think you have something here, Howard .....We just have to find > a 'bait' to entice it by......... Hmmmm, May I be the agent for your > Speaking Tour? We could plan Workshops, Retreats, Support Groups for > the "I was THIS close brigade", and ........... > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have every expectation of collecting many followers! -------------------------------------------------------- I just had to erase > > about ten lines that even I thought was over-doing it........ :-) > ( And you know I'm on 'sensitive' ground with the Moderators.) > > metta, > Christine =================================== With amphibian metta, Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > > > > In a message dated 2/23/02 11:00:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any > self- > > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in > Nyanatilokas' > > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) > AND > > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > > morality)? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I think you need to put that book down! ;-)) > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I > was > > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you > are > > > all responsible somehow........ > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > We know we're on the right track when things don't all seem > wonderful. > > We know we've slipped into a ditch on the side of that track when > things all > > look terrible! > > ;-)) > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > > progressing).......... > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Impossible. The capacity is there. But don't worry about > making > > progress; just pay attention to what's going on, wherever and > however we are. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > > of > > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in > future, > > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I > feel > > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to > look at > > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > > - > > > water-element? > > > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > > (jara). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Two old frogs, sitting motionless on a lily pad, watching > intently, > > waiting .. to tongue-zap enlightenment. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine > > > > > > > > ========================== > > With metta, > > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11466 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/24/02 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Mike B, > > Thanks for indicating your presence and giving yourself the 'B' without > being asked;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My welcome, as well, Mike B, from another list member. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, the Mikes are rapidly catching up with the Robs....> > though there's no sign of the original Mike just now.....;-(( ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: In that regard, Sarah, I wrote Mike N a few days ago to see how things are going, but I have not as yet rec'd a reply. Do you think you can reach him somehow? ------------------------------------------------------ > > If I can encourage you to say a few words about yourself, your mindful > lurking or interest here, I know everyone would be very glad. > > Thanks again for 'breaking the ice', > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11467 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:57pm Subject: frog Dear Christine, Thanks for sharing part of your life and family with us. Let me share with you, your daughter and the families that lost their loved ones about the untimely and unexpected loss. I have also learned from your story. Reminded me of Milindapanha. Ven. Nagasena said that the wise king always erects the city wall and digs the canal around the city long before the enemy is coming close. Jara and morana are always near by. You mentioned about asuba, I think this word has a very deep meaning, things are not that as pretty as we perceived b/c they are arisen and completely fallen away. Morananusati is when we (sati) see realities as the way they are, arise and fall away completely all the time, khanika-morana. Your story also reminded me of my mom. When I was very young, my mom went to her friend's kid funeral and when she came back, she said to all of us that one thing in her life she wished for is; she will not ever have to go to her own kid's funeral. I can imagine that it's very hard to deal with. ……………………… "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) ………………………. Have you read this article, 38 misleading realities? Metta and karuna are mentioned 4-5 times in this article. They can be confused with some fine akusala moments. It's on dhammastudy website. http://www.dhammastudy.com/vancaka.html I hope I can learn from you again this time from your analysis about karuna. When I first read that even pleasant feeling (sukha-vedana) is dukkha, I was pretty surprised. I also felt the same after I read piyajatika sutta, ………………. << "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is -- for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." >> << "But lord, who would ever think that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." >> So the householder, not delighting in the Blessed One's words, rejecting the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and left. ……………….. I have to admit that I still agree with the householder, but at the same time, I lean an ear listens to the Buddha. I really appreciate Nina's input about the Buddha's limitless kindness, compassion and wisdom in cases of Sirima and Kisagotami. I also appreciate your energy (viriya) in learning Pali. I do not know much about Pali but if you ask me about how many kinds frog, butterfly or bug around my house (in Thailand), for sure I can tell you a lot more. Watching the life cycle and a metamorphosis of a frog is fascinating. Tree frog is very pretty and it lays its eggs on a branch of a tree, waits for the rain to wash hundreds of tadpoles down to the pond below. A jumping frog is very hard to catch but becomes completely froze with a direct bright light from a torch and then it is very easily to catch it. BTW, frog en Pali is "manduka". Could you also please give your daughter my regard. Best wishes. Num 11468 From: Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 2:18pm Subject: Meeting archive, to Nina. Dear Nina, This is what I discussed with my aunt this weekend. It's from indriyavibanga, page 167 PTS. << Seven controlling faculties have no objects. Four controlling faculties should not be said to have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati). Controlling faculty of initial enlightenment (anannatannassamitindriya) does not have path as its object; (sometimes)* has path as its cause; sometimes has path as it dominating factor; sometimes should not be said to have, (path as its cause)* or path as it dominating factor. Controlling faculty of intermediate enlightenment (annindriya) does not have path as its object; sometimes has path as its cause, sometimes has path as its dominating factor; sometimes should not be said to have, path as its cause or path as its dominating factor. Nine controlling faculties sometimes have path as their object; sometimes have path as their cause; sometimes have path as their dominating factor; sometimes should not be said to have either, path as their object; path as their cause or path as their dominating factor. >> We talked about the definitions of maggarammana, maggahetuka and maggadhipati. I got stuck there at the 4 indriyas are "should not be said to have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati)." The meaning is very subtle and intricate but I think it is important to test myself of how much do I really understand what I think I understand. We also talked about adhipatipaccaya. Pariyatti is fun but not that easy. Luckily, I take it as something fun and fascinating to learn. I am really appreciated when someone bailed me out from a pitch of doubts. Thanks you (and Jon) again for definition and examples of sammapadha. That was very helpful. If I not get stuck too often, hope I will get to that part of Vibanga soon. I also told her that I plan to read Jatakas to my nieces and nephews when I get back home. I have to read it first and then will pick some jatakas, which I think appropriate for kids. I think some of the Jatakas needed to be censured!!, I just scanned through it very briefly. One of the jakata is pretty graphic. Hmmm, same dhamma is not good for everyone:) I relayed your message to my aunt rgd telling K.Kanchana about the translation. Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another one was about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting factor? My aunt told me that there will be an archive of lecturer meeting printed out in Thai for free distribution on this Maghapuja day. She will ask whether someone can send you a word.doc document to you. I think I can ask K.Amara for that, I would like to read it too. I will keep you post. Appreciate. Num 11469 From: mikebrotherto Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 2/24/02 4:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > > Dear Mike B, > > > > Thanks for indicating your presence and giving yourself the 'B' without > > being asked;-) > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > My welcome, as well, Mike B, from another list member. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Yes, the Mikes are rapidly catching up with the Robs....> > > though there's no sign of the original Mike just now.....;-(( > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > In that regard, Sarah, I wrote Mike N a few days ago to see how things > are going, but I have not as yet rec'd a reply. Do you think you can reach > him somehow? > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > If I can encourage you to say a few words about yourself, your mindful > > lurking or interest here, I know everyone would be very glad. > > > > Thanks again for 'breaking the ice', > > Sarah > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) Greetings! May this find you all well and at peace. Since I am from Memphis, Tennessee (Southern USA), we would usually say 'may this find ya'll well and at peace,' but I won't. I honor this group for its determination to penetrate the truth of realities through the path of knowledge. Traces of now still remain of the last 30 years in which meditation has arisen and fallen in this body/mind. Most of those moments were spent, however, ignorantly toying with energy - acheiving transcendental states, carelessly playing with kundalini ("thinking" it was spiritual). I naively, but sincerely, devoted myself to Swami Rama, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now remarketed as Osho for you kids), and Da Free John (all of whom wrote ass-kicking dhamma but had a slight problem with that darn sex precept). Frank (I mean Da Free John) truly transmits incredible insight and I will always cherish that. Amazing - but during all that time I never understood that Buddhism was the foundation of it all. How strange! To make a short story shorter, conditions arose where I opened the eyes and found myself in Sangha here in Memphis of all places - the home of Elvis! I didn't have to go to Fiji to visit Frank (I mean Da Free John) after all. I take refuge in Sangha like a drowning mouse in a hurricane. We have a wonderful group here and practice has been fruitful. We spent a Day of Mindfulness yesterday in silent sitting / walking meditation.(It only took me about five hours for the mind to concede and find myself squatting in the grass looking at a pile of dogshit with all of these beautiful baby flies scooting about with gleeful abandon. There was such rapture, I wept. Truly an enlightened moment, which, seem to arise more and more frequently. I have finally remembered what I had been missing all these years - a virtuous life. I forgot after millions of births that it is simply a prerequisite. I had been putting effort into concentration without balancing it with insight. I now understand the absolute necessity of balancing the 8 fold path to remain accessible to panna. Right view and right effort are so slippery. But yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, all there is - is now. What is one to do but sit? I will have the honor of being in retreat with Bhante Gunaratana next week in St. Louis, Missouri. In May, another 10 day retreat with Matthew Flickstein.I vow to remain present as much as possible in this lifetime. Who knows? I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never going to heal'. Nina, especially, your work has been such an influence in creating appropriate conditions for mindfulness. I am learning Pali by studying your teaching and can follow you guys most of the time. May all y'all realize nibbana in this lifetime. With metta, Mike Brotherton 11470 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion and Detachment Dear Christine, Good question. How do compassion and detachment accord with each other? Are they not a contradiction? I'm not very good with dictionaries so I'll just give you my own thoughts and definitions that I've chewed on over the years. Compassion: Caring about someone enough to try to remove their suffering. Detachment: The self as we think of it does not exist. People are just collections of conditional factors that cause suffering. How can we remove the suffering of someone who doesn't exist? Compassion: Even though beings are only conditional and there is no 'self' to be found within, suffering exists for the consciousness that suffers. Therefore, ending suffering is two-fold: 1/ Reducing conditional sufferings by acts of metta: kindness, compassion, empathy, helping: feed the hungry, heal the sick, etc. 2/ Help end the delusion of self, so that sufferings no longer have a root. The latter is a long way off, suffering will continue for a long time; meanwhile - do what you can while trying to understand and communicate the dhamma. Robert ===================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > I find a little confusion between what I thought were universally > accepted meanings for qualities to be encouraged, and the different > interpretation that I think buddhism seems to place upon them. > Compassion is one of those qualities. I began > considering 'compassion' initially as a result of looking > at 'attachment' (saraga) and 'detachment' (viveka, and viraga), in > relation to the reactions of myself and others after the deaths of > the young friends. [Start anywhere in buddhism and everything leads > to everything else (Just as attachment has led to kilesas, vedana, > anicca, anatta, dukkha, kamma, conditions and roots - Nothing can be > compartmentalised or seen in isolation).] > > But, how can we be 'compassionate' and 'detached' at the same time? > Compassion seems to carry with it overtones of warmth and love; > detachment seems to carry coldness, unfeeling. Or, can we only be > compassionate if we are detached? Wouldn't non-attached be a more > appropriate choice of word, given that detached can be a derogatory > term, meaning uninvolved, callous, indifferent (or even mentally > unbalanced)? And doesn't compassion need action, to differentiate it > from common pity, or emotional self-indulgence? > > > the definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7):(taken from dsg post 3774) > "Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffering. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: 'cruelty'/'non-cruelty' ...... in oneself, or in others? > Is any physically helpful action implied here, or just introspection? > What about tragic happenings? Are they included in the > term 'cruelty'? Probably not, because they cannot be controlled > and 'caused to subside'....... So, this is probably about > introspection/contemplation.......not 'action'.... > 'Promoting the removal of suffering in others' - Yes, I see now that > this is probably what the Buddha was doing in sending Kisagotami > around from house to house? But what about the story of Sirima? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dictionary Meanings of Compassion: > From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn) > Compassion - a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's > suffering; the humane quality of understanding the suffering of > others and wanting TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. > Detachment - avoiding emotional involvement [wyn: {withdrawal}] > In the Manual of buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Nyanatiloka Mahathera > Compassion is listed as Karuna > Karuna is listed as Compassion > Detachment - 1. viveka: detachment, seclusion, is according to > Niddesa, of 3 kinds: (1) bodily detachment (káya-viveka), i.e. > abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects; (2) mental > detachment (citta-viveka), i.e. the inner detachment from sensuous > things; (3) detachment from the substrata of existence (upadhi- > viveka). > - 2. virága: fading away, detachment; absence of lust, > dispassionateness. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christine: I have read the Useful Post on 'compassion': > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 > and I am having a little difficulty with the following paragraphs in > that post: > > "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so > mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion > doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? > 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, > in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another > misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And > compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Are you saying: 'There is no-one here or there > anyway.......so, why bother...'? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine 11471 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Beauty and the Beast Dear Frank, Num and Christine, Num wrote: >You mentioned about asuba, I > > think this word has a very deep meaning, things are not that as pretty > as we > perceived b/c they are arisen and completely fallen away. We discussed a little more about vipallasas in Bangkok and your pertinent comment reminded me that Frank was asking some time ago about subha (beautiful) and asubha (foul) (I don’t think anyone replied directly, solet me do a cut and paste job here): Frank: > Now, I happen to be one of the big proponents of the > contemplation of impurities, and seeing the body as > loathsome. I think it's a big mistake for modern > westerners to neglect this aspect of practice because > it doesn't accord with their more delicate > sensibilities. However, I don't think that 4th > vipallasa belongs in the company of the other 3. Just as a reminder (Num or Kom, let me know if I slip up anytime here): The vipallasas are of 3 kinds, i.e sanna-vipallasa (perversion of perception), citta-vipallasa (perversion of consciousness) and ditthi-vipallasa (perversion of view). Of these, the first two arise now with every akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness) while the third (ditthi vipallasa) arises whenever there is wrong view and is eradicated by the sotapanna. The 4 perversions themselves (i.e. 4x3 categories) are a) regarding impermanent as permanent, b) painful as pleasant, c) non-self as self, d) foul as beautiful. (see Kom’s clearer grid and details at the end of the post). With regard to the last one (foul as beautiful), the wrong view about it has been eradicated by the sotapanna, but the sanna and citta-vipallasas which cling to the beautiful in the foul are only eradicated by the anagami (3rd stage of enlightenment). As I understand, sometimes when we read about asubha and asubha sanna, it is referring to the parts of the body as in the cemetery contemplations, when the foulness of the body is used as object of samatha (asubha-kammatthana) as Frank discussed. However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the meaning is not confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at the computer and think it’s a nice colour or preferable to the colour of the wall, there is clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in the foul. Hence, sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is asubha (foul) for subha (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along with the attachment to sense pleasures . Frank, I hope this helps. Attachment to sense objects is so pernicious. The anagami has no more of this kind of attachment but still has (very subtle) attachment for other objects such as bhava (becoming), kusala citta or samadhi. The only perversions the anagami still has are sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to finding pleasure in the painful (i.e. finding sukkha in dukkha) which is only eradicated by the arahat. (Vism XX11,68). Let me finish with a quote from B.Bodhi’s translation of ‘Distortions of Perception, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how ‘mentally deranged’ we are: “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - Such folk resort to distorted views, mentally deranged, subject to illusions. Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, They are still far from the secure state. Such beings wander through the painful round And go repeatedly from birth to death. But when the Buddhas appear in the world, The makers of light in a mass of darkness, They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, That leads to the end of suffering. When people with wisdom listen to them, They at last regain their sanity. They see the impermanent as impermanent, And they see suffering just as suffering. They see the selfless as void of self, And in the foul they see the foul. By this acceptance of right view, They overcome all suffering.” ********** May right view be developed to ‘overcome all suffering’. Sarah =========================================== From Kom’s earlier post: As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu cetasikkas) cittas. The objects of the vipalassa are four: 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance 2) Seeing dukha as sukha 3) Seeing anatta as atta 4) Seeing asubha as subha The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as followed: ...... ........Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X SagatakamiX X X S C X X X X S C X Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D ********** 11472 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:51pm Subject: Where in the world........ Dear Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > Howard: > In that regard, Sarah, I wrote Mike N a few days ago to see how > things > are going, but I have not as yet rec'd a reply. Do you think you can > reach > him somehow? > ------------------------------------------------------ Hmm......I think we're all up against the same problem in this regard...He returned to Seattle, as I understand, about a month ago now and was expecting a tough time finding work and so on after his other plans didn't work out as expected (do they ever?). Hopefully, when he's 'settled' again, we'll all be hearing good reminders from him here again. I'm only too aware of the attachment, expectations, concern (read worry and other dosa) and other unwholesome mental states as I write about a dear friend;-) Sarah ============================================== 11473 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death,/RobEp Dear Christine, Thanks for the reference on the Lady Patacara. I am glad you found some comfort in the story and my message. It may not make sense, but I believe that we can feel compassion for others, and offer metta in the difficult times in each others' lives, while still firmly pursuing the truth of anatta. If we were not compassionate, why would we want to save ourselves and others from the suffering of false notions of self? If it were only selfish to want to end this suffering, how could this selfishness possibly lead to abandonment of self? There must be something in compassion that is both detached from self and yet not detached from suffering. That seems to me to be the middle way between clinging to self and others and clinging to anatta. Best, Robert Ep. ========================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Rob, I found your post very moving and comforting. My daughter > Sarah is doing well, though a little tired from supporting others, > working, and going to University. But tired is a good thing at the > moment. And she has house guests - another exchange student from New > York, female this time, and a friends' cousin from New Zealand. Half > a dozen of H..... and A....... mates come around most evenings, and > many old friendships have been renewed. One is not doing so well - > the boy that held everyone else up before and during the funeral, and > who gave the Eulogy for both his best friends, but she is keeping a > watch and he won't be left alone to deal with this over the coming > year. > > Thank you for Ajahn Brams' story. > You say: " I thought it pointed out beautifully that the most > desperate events in our lives can sometimes strengthen our > involvement with the Dhamma." Exactly so, Rob, I found this event, > which didn't affect me directly, caused a reconsidering of just what > is/is not worthwhile in life, and, among other things, made me > thankful that the Dhamma is still available relatively unchanged and > all of us have further time to study it. > > I think Ajahn Brams is talking about the Lady Patacara. She became > a Nun and eventually, an Arahat. > http://www.buddhanet.net/28lbud.htm > > Thanks again Rob, > I'll show (my) Sarah your Post, she will also be touched by it, > > Metta, > Chris > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > I'm working my way backwards through posts, and was just shocked to > read about the > > tragic events in your and your daughter's life. I'm sorry you had > to go through > > that. > > > > It is true this life is full of sufferings, and we have all had our > share, but > > none of what you talked about seemed like 'kid stuff' to me. I > think your balance > > in the midst of all this is admirable and shows some real > steadiness in your > > understanding of the teachings you have been working so hard with. > > > > By a strange coincidence, a friend from Australia just sent me a CD > with lectures > > by Ajahn Bhramavamso on Theravada and meditation. He told one > story which some > > here may be familiar with about the Buddha and a woman who came to > him. I thought > > it pointed out beautifully that the most desperate events in our > lives can > > sometimes strengthen our involvement with the Dhamma. > > > > He spoke of a woman who had had the worst possible tragedies befall > her all at > > once during the time of the Buddha. Her husband had been killed > and she was > > trying to go visit her father with her two children. A terrible > storm wound up > > killing both children and on the road she received news that her > father had also > > died in the storm. She went totally mad and wandered around naked > from her own > > encounter with the flood for days. Eventually by karmic conditions > she wandered > > in this state into the grove where the Buddha was teaching his > disciples. Those > > guarding the periphery wanted to keep her out, but the Buddha saw > what was > > happening and told them to let her in. He gave her a cloak to > cover herself with > > and gave her a place to sit and receive the teachings. With > nothing left of her > > former life, within a short period of time she reached full > enlightenment and > > became an arahat. > > > > I just thought that at this particular moment when I have been > thinking about this > > story, that you might want to hear about it. > > > > I'm very sorry for you having to have gone through the current > circumstances, and > > also wish your daughter the very best. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11474 From: smallchap Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Re: Meeting archive, to Nina. Hi Sum > This is what I discussed with my aunt this weekend. Would be very grateful if you could give a brief introduction of your aunt. Is she a Dhamma/Meditation teacher? Is she a nun? If you find it inconvenient to disclose her background, I would understand. > Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another one was about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting factor? What is palasamapatti? What is jhanna-sampatti? Pardon my poor grasp of the pali. Most appreciated for your reply. smallchap 11475 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's/RobEp....... Hi Christine, First of all, I have complete respect for Howard's integrity, but I think that there is some room for misinterpretation of the 'tongue-zap' enlightenment out on the road, among less enlightened audiences. I suggest to you and Howard that you consider an alternative amphibian whose way of waiting for enlightenment to approach is with a less controversial body part. Perhaps you could have a crocodile who waits patiently in the swamp of samsara to snap its jaws shut on the tasty feast of enlightenment when it ventures by, or something like that. Second of all, I'd be happy to have you work my comment about seeing each moment without secondary judgments into your act, as long as you respect the copyright, mention my name whenever you mention the phrase, and pay an appropriate percentage of any royalties that may accrue to you and Howard in the performance of this part of your routine. I think Howard, as a mathematician, should be in an ideal position to calculate the exact percentage of your seminar that is based in my idea of "How You Can Tell When You're Finally An Arahat", and calculate the proper amount of payment, taking into account the rate of inflation and all other relevant or possibly relevant factors. It's all for the sake of the Dhamma however, and any profits I realize from this venture will be funneled back into contemplating anatta in each moment, as my television schedule allows of course. Best Regards, Robert Ep. ================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear RobEp, > > My first sensible reply to your really much appreciated post seems to > have vanished into cyberspace. So, because of that this happens, if > that hadn't happened neither would this ....... is there a faint echo > of something there? :-) > > - just one further question..... > > You say: "When you see each detail just as it is, without > reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even > better shape, > but by then you'll probably be an arahat." > > How can I work that bit into the 'tongue-zap' enlightenment program? > Would you like to be a guest lecturer, I feel you'd go really well > with the Support Group......... :-) > > I think I need to have a glass of hot milk and retire for the night. > Sunday night here, MondayMania already....... > > much metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Geez, Christine, > > What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope > you're having fun, > > you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. > > > > As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you > really, really > > just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say > > congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and > not on the path > > is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of > imperfect 'stuff' > > they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, > primed for > > progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are > seeing so far > > is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, > without > > reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even > better shape, > > but by then you'll probably be an arahat. > > > > Love, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ==================== > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any > self- > > > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > > > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > > > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in > Nyanatilokas' > > > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > > > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) > AND > > > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > > > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > > > morality)? > > > > > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I > was > > > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you > are > > > all responsible somehow........ > > > > > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > > > progressing).......... > > > > > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > > > of > > > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in > future, > > > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > > > > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I > feel > > > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to > look at > > > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > > > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > > > - > > > water-element? > > > > > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > > > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > > > (jara). > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine 11476 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Robert, > > Thank you for responding. From reading the discourses, I have not found > that the Buddha answered the question "is there a self?" "is there no self?" > or "what is self?" "what am I?" and I also have not found the Buddha > claimed if there is a self or not, or what self is. As I understand it, > these questions and views lead to dukkha and do not lead to cessation of > dukkha. > > Regards, > Victor That's what I was thinking. It occurred to me that only someone enamoured of a 'self' would be concerned with such questions, so why ask them? Maybe I'm losing my 'mind'. Robert Ep. ===================== > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Epstein" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:22 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > > > > Dear Victor, > > I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on > the > > subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. > > > > I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is > there a > > true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely > states that > > 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to > function in > > enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to > one who > > is liberated. > > > > I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* > to the > > question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the > question > > of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a > delusion. If > > the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question > of self > > is no longer a problem, is it? > > > > I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has > never > > arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with > either the > > eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution > of > > 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being > that is > > given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. > > > > Best, > > he who is called Robert Ep. > > [at least around here] > > > > =============== > > > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > > > Hello Ken, > > > > > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself > with > > > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > > > references. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > > > Bhikkhu Sutta > > > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > > For free distribution only. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on > the > > > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that > because > > > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an > impermanent, > > > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed > into > > > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we > don't > > > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > > > defined. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on > arrival, > > > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he > said > > > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > > > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma > from > > > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > > > resolute." > > > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured > by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > > > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever > one > > > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > > > > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > > > > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have > said > > > in brief?" > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured > by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one > is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. [3] > > > > > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have > said > > > in brief." > > > > > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > > > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured > by. > > > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > > > > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one > is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > > > > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > > > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > > > classified. > > > > > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be > > > seen." > > > > > > Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, > got > > > up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, > > > keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling > alone, > > > secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & > remained > > > in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth > > > from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the > here > > > & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. > > > There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became > > > another one of the arahants. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > Notes > > > 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession > of > > > resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the > > > obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the > > > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] > > > > > > 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] > > > > > > 3. See MN 72 [Go back] > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > > > Samanupassana Sutta > > > Assumptions > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > > For free distribution only. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives > or > > > priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the > five > > > clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the > case > > > where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for > noble > > > ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no > regard > > > for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their > Dhamma -- > > > assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, > or > > > form as in the self, or the self as in form. > > > "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, > or > > > feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. > > > > > > "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing > perception, > > > or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. > > > > > > "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as > possessing > > > fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in > > > fabrications. > > > > > > "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing > > > consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in > > > consciousness. > > > > > > "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. > And > > > so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the > > > appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the > > > senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). > > > > > > "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there > is > > > the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, > > > touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the > > > thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall > be > > > possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient > > > (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither > percipient > > > nor non-percipient.' > > > > > > "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to > them > > > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and > gives > > > rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising > of > > > clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I > shall > > > not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall > be > > > percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be > > > neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ---- > > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > > > > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even > in a > > > > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still > we > > > > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to > release > > > > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just > views, > > > > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, 11477 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Rob K, Like everyone else, i’ve been appreciating your paticcasamuppada series. Just one small point which I happened to raise in Bkk as I’d had a doubt about a point someone else had made with regard to the inherent kusala vs akusala nature of particular moments of seeing consciousness, so it's rather fresher than usual in my mind: --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > ..... Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the > object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result > of > good kamma. > I’m not sure we can say this necessarily. I don’t think it is the content of the book which we can say determines the sense door vipaka at that moment. For example, if the visible object is an old, dusty book impinging on the eye door, the eye consciousness may well be akusala vipaka. When I asked K.Sujin the question about any inherent kusala vs akusala nature, she replied that we can never know whether any given visible object at any time is kusala or akusala vipaka with one exception; 'seeing the live Buddha'. ********** Let me remind everyone to make use of all the excellent materials which you now have on your website at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ There is also a very useful (and easily accessible) Buddhist search engine on it which I sometimes use. The other day, I downloaded a simplified (and imaginative rendering) of a Jataka story called “Mr Monkey and Sir Crocodile” from Jataka 57 I read the story to some young students, asked them to write a summary and then determine what they thought was the moral of the story. This was interesting. Two thought the moral was not to harm or kill others (which worked well from the story), another thought the moral was not to speak out without thinking wisely first (another good choice), but the one given in the simplified story was “the moral is: a good loser is a true gentleman” reflecting how Sir Crocodile congratulates Mr Monkey on out-smarting him. I decided to check the original Jataka (in which Mr Monkey was the Buddha and Sir Croc was Devadatta). Here the moral is given in this verse: “Whoso, O monkey-king, like you, combines Truth, foresight, fixed resolve, and fearlessness, shall see his routed foemen turn and flee.” Anyway, thanks to the simplified story (which my students greatly enjoyed), I got to pulling out my old, dusty Jataka texts and regardless of the vipaka, there were conditions for many moments of useful reflection;-) Thanks Rob for all your work on the website. I see 'Cetasikas' can now be found here too. Sarah ========== 11478 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an arahant who > had visited the naga realm. > --------------------------------------------------------- Didn't realize they had frogs there. Best, Robert Ep. 11479 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: >. > > Just one small point which I happened to raise in Bkk as I'd had a doubt > about a point someone else had made with regard to the inherent kusala vs > akusala nature of particular moments of seeing consciousness, so it's > rather fresher than usual in my mind: > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > ..... Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the > > object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result\of good kamma. > > > I'm not sure we can say this necessarily. I don't think it is the content > of the book which we can say determines the sense door vipaka at that > moment. For example, if the visible object is an old, dusty book impinging > on the eye door, the eye consciousness may well be akusala vipaka. When I > asked K.Sujin the question about any inherent kusala vs akusala nature, > she replied that we can never know whether any given visible object at any > time is kusala or akusala vipaka with one exception; 'seeing the live > Buddha'. >========================== Dear Sarah, Yes, it is true that we can't always be sure that any given citta is kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. For instance, I mentioned a while back the case of holding a warm soft dogshit in the hand and how most people think this is akusala. However, the Patthana commentary noted that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because warm and soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing. In my example above I do not think it is wrong to say that there is kusala vipaka when reading Dhamma, otherwise we have to be so detailed and specific and point out intricate matters that can distract from the main point. We can see many examples from the texts where the Buddha spoke generally without doing this. In the case above it is certainly true that while reading the message there would have been many moments of akusala vipaka that passed unnoticed but as I was writing in order to simplify a complex topic I think it is appropriate to ignore this. People already complain about Abhidhmamma on d-l where I started this series; they find it scholarly. If I bring in too many points it can turn people off. best wishes robert 11480 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion and Detachment Dear Christine, S:As I’m running out of time, let me just clarify the questions you raise from an earlier post of mine (actually I didn’t know it was from one of mine til I checked;-) ..... --- christine_forsyth wrote: S:> the definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7):(taken from dsg post 3774) > "Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffering. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: 'cruelty'/'non-cruelty' ...... in oneself, or in others? > Is any physically helpful action implied here, or just introspection? ..... S:I’m now looking at the PTS translation of the Atthasalini (p259) in which we read about the same passage:- ..... “Pity has the characteristic of evolving the mode of removing pain; the manifestation of kindness; the proximate cause of seeing the need of those ovecome by pain. Its consummation is the quieting of cruelty; its failure is the production of sorrow.” ..... S:Chris, the compassion (or other brahma viharas we read about) always refer to one’s ‘own’ mental states regardless of whether we are merely thinking about the other or physically nursing wounds so to speak. When there is kindness prompted by seeing (or reflecting on) the other’s pain or suffering, there is no harshness or cruelty at that moment. The near enemy of compassion, however, is ‘sorrow’. As soon as we feel sad for the other, it’s no longer compassion. ..... C:> What about tragic happenings? Are they included in the > term 'cruelty'? Probably not, because they cannot be controlled > and 'caused to subside'....... So, this is probably about > introspection/contemplation.......not 'action'.... ..... S:I’ve forgotten what the pali term is for cruelty (also used in the Vism), but this is the far enemy of compassion. When one is cruel, there cannot be compassion. Maybe you can think about the way children play with insects as an example of this. Again it’s the mind-state being referred to which also cannot be ‘controlled’.. However, by reflecting on the value of compassion and the harm of sorrow and grief, this will be a condition for the unwholesome qualities to ‘subside’. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christine: I have read the Useful Post on 'compassion': > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 > and I am having a little difficulty with the following paragraphs in > that post: > S:> "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so > mixed with other feelings that the part that is pure compassion > doesn't last for even the tiniest part of a moment? > 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we encouraged to promote karuna, > in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is this another > misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And > compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:All realities are inherently unsatisfactory including those like compassion that we’re used to thinking of as being very satisfactory. So we are encouraged to see the value of wholesome states including the Brahama Viharas, but not to cling to having these same certain states. If we are concerned to be the wise or compassionate person or even just tohave more compassion right now, it shows the attachment again. When there’s attachment, there’s no wisdom or compassion. When there’s compassion, it’s always concerned about the other,. As you say, like metta or the other brahma viharas, it’s never self-directed. It’s not easy I know to see the difference between understanding the value of certain mental factors and the harm of clinging to these same factors. Let me know if this still isn’t clear as I also find it helpful to reflect on. ..... Sarah:> Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Christine: Are you saying: 'There is no-one here or there > anyway.......so, why bother...'? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:I think I was saying that the more we understand about different realties and the more we understand about anatta, the more we realise that for others, there are just the same realities, also mistakenly taken for a self. We can never directly experience someone else’s anger or compassion, but by understanding the qualities of these mental states when they arise (for us) more and more precisely, we know that these same states which arise for others are also anatta. When we say ‘why bother’ or ‘in that case it’s all pre-determined’ as another thread is discussing, it’s just thinking rather than any understanding of the realities appearing now. There can be awareness of thinking at that moment, however, and then the question is answered for that instant;-) Please ask anything further that I haven’t clarified. Thanks for taking the trouble to read the posts and consider so carefully. You raise many really helpful points in your post and I'm also appreciating everyone else's comments on them. Sarah =========== 11481 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 11:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Hi Rob, Understood. Many thanks and yes, the 'warm dogshit' was a good example;-) Sarah --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > Yes, it is true that we can't always be sure that any given citta is > kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. For instance, I mentioned a while > back the case of holding a warm soft dogshit in the hand and how most > people think this is akusala. However, the Patthana commentary noted > that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because warm > and soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for > obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate > many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing. > > In my example above I do not think it is wrong to say that there is > kusala vipaka when reading Dhamma, otherwise we have to be so > detailed and specific and point out intricate matters that can > distract from the main point. We can see many examples from the texts > where the Buddha spoke generally without doing this. > In the case above it is certainly true that while reading the > message there would have been many moments of akusala vipaka that > passed unnoticed but as I was writing in order to simplify a complex > topic I think it is appropriate to ignore this. People already > complain about Abhidhmamma on d-l where I started this series; they > find it scholarly. If I bring in too many points it can turn people > off. > best wishes > robert > 11482 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Hello Mike B, Welcome and thank you for telling us a little about yourself. You've certainly been travelling a long and winding road, but it's great that you eventually found the way home. :-) How fortunate to be able to have the opportunity to learn from Matthew Flickstein And Bhante Gunaratana ...... there are some disadvantages to living in the basement of the world down here - like distance from Teachers. Have you read Matthews' book "Swallowing the River Ganges"? If so, I'd be interested in your opinion and review. Look forward to any posts you care to write, Metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "mikebrotherto" wrote: > Greetings! > May this find you all well and at peace. Since I am from Memphis, > Tennessee (Southern USA), we would usually say 'may this find ya'll > well and at peace,' but I won't. > I honor this group for its determination to penetrate the truth of > realities through the path of knowledge. Traces of now still remain of > the last 30 years in which meditation has arisen and fallen in this > body/mind. Most of those moments were spent, however, ignorantly > toying with energy - acheiving transcendental states, carelessly > playing with kundalini ("thinking" it was spiritual). I naively, but > sincerely, devoted myself to Swami Rama, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now > remarketed as Osho for you kids), and Da Free John (all of whom wrote > ass-kicking dhamma but had a slight problem with that darn sex > precept). Frank (I mean Da Free John) truly transmits incredible > insight and I will always cherish that. Amazing - but during all that > time I never understood that Buddhism was the foundation of it all. > > How strange! > > To make a short story shorter, conditions arose where I opened the > eyes and found myself in Sangha here in Memphis of all places - the > home of Elvis! I didn't have to go to Fiji to visit Frank (I mean Da > Free John) after all. I take refuge in Sangha like a drowning mouse in > a hurricane. We have a wonderful group here and practice has been > fruitful. We spent a Day of Mindfulness yesterday in silent sitting / > walking meditation.(It only took me about five hours for the mind to > concede and find myself squatting in the grass looking at a pile of > dogshit with all of these beautiful baby flies scooting about with > gleeful abandon. There was such rapture, I wept. Truly an enlightened > moment, which, seem to arise more and more frequently. I have finally > remembered what I had been missing all these years - a virtuous life. > I forgot after millions of births that it is simply a prerequisite. I > had been putting effort into concentration without balancing it with > insight. I now understand the absolute necessity of balancing the 8 > fold path to remain accessible to panna. Right view and right effort > are so slippery. But yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, all > there is - is now. What is one to do but sit? > I will have the honor of being in retreat with Bhante Gunaratana next > week in St. Louis, Missouri. In May, another 10 day retreat with > Matthew Flickstein.I vow to remain present as much as possible in this > lifetime. Who knows? > > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful > presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I > wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it > be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never > going to heal'. > Nina, especially, your work has been such an influence in creating > appropriate conditions for mindfulness. I am learning Pali by studying > your teaching and can follow you guys most of the time. May all y'all > realize nibbana in this lifetime. > > With metta, > Mike Brotherton 11483 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 2:45am Subject: Re: frog Dear Num and All, Thank you, Num, for telling me about Ven. Nagasena and also about your mothers' words after attending the funeral of a friends' child. If we are still attached to others and feel grief and sorrow (as I am and do), the most difficult grief to cope with is the death of ones' own child - a death out of time, a death of the 'planned future'. May none of us ever have to face that in the times ahead.....(I have shown your post to my daughter, and passed on your regards, for which she thanks you.) No, I hadn't read the 'Vancana sabhavo - 38 Misleading Realities' before - This article is a real 'eye-opener' to me! It makes me wonder how can we be confident of anything we feel or of any motive or intention we think we have? How can we tell 'true realities' from 'mistaken realities'? Is there a sequel to this anywhere, perhaps suggesting a test that can be applied to sort the true from the false? I have to say I feel a little shaken by this article (which is good)...... While looking for where it mentions Metta and Karuna - I also found Uddhacca/viiriyaarambha, and kukkucca/sikkhaakaamataa (below), which makes me wonder about my wanting to know and learn more and more about dhamma. Is my feeling genuine?..... or is it really only mental agitation and worry? How can I tell one from the other? And how can one be changed to the other? 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. Uddhacca (mental agitation) could be mistaken for viiriyaarambha (perseverance in studying the dhamma) 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati. Kukkucca (worries) could be mistaken for sikkhaakaamataa (thirst for knowledge) Thanks for linking me to this thought provoking article, Num. It is good not to become complacent, - though sometime or other I hope to get to a tranquil plateau for a while :-) :-) Frogs are one of my favourite little animals (amphibians?). I have one that lives in the guttering around my roof and croaks beautifully before rain (which means he is a male, lady frogs don't croak) :-) For years frogs 'vanished' from the bush around my area - mainly due to their sensitivity to pesticides sprayed by the local authorities to control introduced plant species. But in recent years frogs are making a comeback, though threatened by introduced Cane toads and, now, Fire Ants. The Tree Frogs seem to be surviving the best though, as Cane toads can't climb. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thanks for sharing part of your life and family with us. Let me share with > you, your daughter and the families that lost their loved ones about the > untimely and unexpected loss. I have also learned from your story. Reminded > me of Milindapanha. Ven. Nagasena said that the wise king always erects the > city wall and digs the canal around the city long before the enemy is coming > close. Jara and morana are always near by. You mentioned about asuba, I > think this word has a very deep meaning, things are not that as pretty as we > perceived b/c they are arisen and completely fallen away. Morananusati is > when we (sati) see realities as the way they are, arise and fall away > completely all the time, khanika-morana. Your story also reminded me of my > mom. When I was very young, my mom went to her friend's kid funeral and when > she came back, she said to all of us that one thing in her life she wished > for is; she will not ever have to go to her own kid's funeral. I can imagine > that it's very hard to deal with. > ……………………… > "No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental > state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory > (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a > more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. > Christine: Is this because of anatta, or because compassion is so mixed with > other feelings that the part that is pure compassion doesn't last for even > the tiniest part of a moment? 'Not worth clinging to' - but aren't we > encouraged to promote karuna, in the practice of the Brahma Viharas? Or is > this another misunderstanding of mine - like the metta episode........And > compassion is also not to be self-directed? :-) > ………………………. > > Have you read this article, 38 misleading realities? Metta and karuna are > mentioned 4-5 times in this article. They can be confused with some fine > akusala moments. It's on dhammastudy website. > http://www.dhammastudy.com/vancaka.html > I hope I can learn from you again this time from your analysis about karuna. > > When I first read that even pleasant feeling (sukha-vedana) is dukkha, I was > pretty surprised. I also felt the same after I read piyajatika sutta, > ………………. > << "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is -- for sorrow, > lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come > springing from one who is dear." >> > << "But lord, who would ever think that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? > Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is > dear." >> So the householder, not delighting in the Blessed One's words, > rejecting the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and left. > ……………….. > > I have to admit that I still agree with the householder, but at the same > time, I lean an ear listens to the Buddha. I really appreciate Nina's input > about the Buddha's limitless kindness, compassion and wisdom in cases of > Sirima and Kisagotami. > > I also appreciate your energy (viriya) in learning Pali. I do not know much > about Pali but if you ask me about how many kinds frog, butterfly or bug > around my house (in Thailand), for sure I can tell you a lot more. Watching > the life cycle and a metamorphosis of a frog is fascinating. Tree frog is > very pretty and it lays its eggs on a branch of a tree, waits for the rain to > wash hundreds of tadpoles down to the pond below. A jumping frog is very hard > to catch but becomes completely froze with a direct bright light from a torch > and then it is very easily to catch it. BTW, frog en Pali is "manduka". > > Could you also please give your daughter my regard. > > Best wishes. > > Num 11484 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Dear Howard and Rob, In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day limit as is being mooted on 'another list', I have decided to amalgamate my response to you two dear gentlemen. (How would you survive Rob on three posts a day? How would many of us survive? The third post would have to be "Sorry ..... .... you weren't drawn out of the hat today, better luck tomorrow"). Howard, are you sure all frogs are amphibians - what about tree- frogs? And desert frogs? Rob - I'm not so sure about your suggestion of a crocodile as an alternative....all very well for you, but I'm the one who is supposed to get on the lily-pad with him! And is a crocodile an amphibian? I DO like "the swamp of samsara" though, nearly as memorable as MikeB and his 'drowning mouse in a hurricane'...(what was it doing out of a pantry or a linen cupboard and in that weather?) I've actually turned off the idea of promoting Howards' Speaking Tour - he seems to be developing Delusions of Grandeur about "collecting many followers", and Rob....such a Mercenary Spirit - percentages and royalties ....I'll have to find two other role models, now that I've found out about your feet of clay...... I absolutely, positively refuse to enter into any further correspondence on any of the above, because I've forgotten how it all started.... :-) :-) Cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > > > > In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an arahant who > > had visited the naga realm. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Didn't realize they had frogs there. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > 11485 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:04am Subject: automatic?Rob.E Dear Robert K, I assume you would think that one's 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also be something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then really, it is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better or worse? Rob E. _______________ Dear Rob. E., This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it so I just give some hints. Your comment about determinism/freewill to Jon is the question that haunts all aspects of philosophy and always will. Even the Chrsitians used to argue it; cf. the debates betwen Erasmus and Luther that Dan pointed out to me.. To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about letting go: only words. As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to assist insight. Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising in the present, but built on past ones. Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard delusion to see through. In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But when volition, along with other dhammas, is properly understood (a long process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a palliative to the symptoms. I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study directly of dhammas for any real insight - but, and I think this is what Jon is showing, this type of study is only real if it is done without desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching. I think people with a zen background like you and Ken O get this point fairly readily. While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed. Also it is not that being in quiet places isn't helpful. In fact it can be very useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' will be distorted by view. There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the Satipatthana sutta commentary: "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor(wisdom): Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote robert 11486 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > you wrote: "necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development > of insight > > I was curious, what are the necessary and indispensable factors in the > development of insight? > > thanks, Larry Good question, Larry. No doubt there's more than 1 answer that could be found in the suttas, but the one I find most useful is the 4 'factors for stream entry', which are also given as factors for obtaining (and increasing) wisdom. These factors are- - association with superior persons, - hearing the true Dhamma, - careful attention, - practice in accordance with the Dhamma. (We might have expected that the factors to be some method or technique. However, the truths taught by the Buddha are described as being subtle and difficult to grasp, so we should consider carefully the Buddha's choice of factors.) It is perhaps easy to overlook the great importance of the first 2 of these factors. The 'superior person' is the one who is our 'good friend' in encouraging our interest in the dhamma and who is able to explain the dhamma to us in the way we need to hear it. It includes anyone who at any time helps us to understand some aspect of the teachings (i.e., it is not necessary a teacher figure). Only by associating with such persons can we get to 'hear the true Dhamma' (the 2nd factor), since mere access to the texts on its own is not sufficient to open us to a correct understanding of their meaning. And having heard once, we need to hear again and again, which is why the association of the first factor has to be ongoing, as indeed must all factors. The 3rd factor, careful attention (presumably 'yoniso manasikara'), is both useful reflection on the true dhamma one has heard and also the awareness of realities as they appear that constitutes the guarding of the sense-doors. The development of the first 3 factors is necessary for, and at the same time leads naturally to, the 4th factor, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. This is the development of insight. I have pasted copies of the suttas (in truncated form) below. The second extract brings out the importance of all 4 factors as ongoing requirements, even for one who has already attained to the lower stages of enlightenment. Jon SN 55, 5. What is a factor for stream-entry? Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. What is the stream? This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. What is a stream-enterer? One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan. SN 55, 55-61 Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … of arahantship. 11487 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] three rounds and a glimpse of nibbana Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jonothan, this is most helpful. I think that we first have to > understand intellectually that everything is dhamma, that is, non-self, > before dhammas can be understood as impermanent and thus dukkha? The > word > dukkha is not used in: everything is dhamma. What do you think? It must > amount to the same , but it is not quite clear. > Nina. Yes, I think this must be right. The understanding that everything is dhammas presumably would include an understanding of the nature of those dhammas. In fact there was some further discussion that may have touched on this point, but my notes are very brief. I will let you know of anything further when I have listened to the tapes. Jon > > I thought you might be interested in these brief (and rough) > recollections > > from the discussions last weekend on the meaning of sacca-nana and > > kicca-nana as 'rounds' of the Four Noble Truths (raised by Jaran, as I > > recall). > > > > Sacca-nana: > > Of the first Noble Truth, is firm intellectual understanding of the > fact > > that everything is dhammas, namas and rupas; appreciation of the > > importance of this fact. > > > > Of the 2nd Noble Truth, means that attachment is seen as the cause of > > suffering. Attachment here includes attachment to wrong practice, > since > > while there is the wrong idea about practice the natural development > of > > understanding is not possible. > > > > Of the 3rd Noble Truth, means understanding that everything must have > an > > end, that there is the possibility of extinction, since otherwise it > would > > not be possible for ignorance to be eradicated. > > > > Of the 4th Noble Truth, means firm understanding that this only is the > > path, firm understanding of the difference between right view and > wrong > > view, and of the first 3 Noble Truths. > > > > Kicca-nana: > > Any direct awareness of a nama or rupa is kicca-nana of all 4 Noble > > Truths. > > 11488 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update Herman I think you have concluded (below) that Rob K's comments and mine are made in different contexts, since he is talking about the factors that condition the arising of a reality whereas I am taking about the characteristics of a reality. Thanks for bringing up the quote for discussion anyway, and my apologies for getting the context wrong. Jon --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Jon, ... >H: > > > Something I've been pondering lately. "The appreciation of > wholeness > > > comes only through acceptance, for to analyze means to break down > or > > > separate out. The attempt to understand totality by breaking it > down > > > is clearly the characteristically contradictory approach of the > ego > > > to everything". > > > J: > > The goal is to understand reality, not totality. The problem is > lack of > > discernment of reality (not lack of discernment of totality). > > > > My two cents. > > If I have understood him correctly, then Robert K has recently been > emphasising the reality that nothing has a single cause. There is > multiplicity of causes and effects at all times. A single step of the > paticcasma..... (well you know what I mean) in isolation is > meaningless. Any one of the four noble truths in isolation is > useless. One division of the noble eightfold path leads nowhere. > > Still, I accept what you are saying to be so. And I believe totality > to be equivalent to reality. An understanding of components is by > necessity conceptual and atta in nature. (IMHO) > > All the best > > Herman 11489 From: Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Hi, Chris (and Rob) - In a message dated 2/25/02 6:33:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Howard and Rob, > > In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day > limit as is being mooted on 'another list', I have decided to > amalgamate my response to you two dear gentlemen. (How would you > survive Rob on three posts a day? How would many of us survive? The > third post would have to be "Sorry ..... .... you > weren't drawn out of the hat today, better luck tomorrow"). > Howard, are you sure all frogs are amphibians - what about tree- > frogs? And desert frogs? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: From the World Book Encyclopedia: Frog is a small, tailless animal with bulging eyes. Almost all frogs also have long back legs. The strong hind legs enable a frog to leap distances far greater than the length of its body. Frogs live on every continent except Antarctica, but tropical regions have the greatest number of species. Frogs are classified as amphibians. Most amphibians, including most frogs, spend part of their life as a water animal and part as a land animal. Frogs are related to toads but differ from them in several ways. --------------------------------------------- > Rob - I'm not so sure about your suggestion of a crocodile as an > alternative....all very well for you, but I'm the one who is supposed > to get on the lily-pad with him! And is a crocodile an amphibian? I > DO like "the swamp of samsara" though, nearly as memorable as MikeB > and his 'drowning mouse in a hurricane'...(what was it doing out of a > pantry or a linen cupboard and in that weather?) > I've actually turned off the idea of promoting Howards' Speaking > Tour - he seems to be developing Delusions of Grandeur > about "collecting many followers" > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: ---------------------------------------------------- , and Rob....such a Mercenary > > Spirit - percentages and royalties ....I'll have to find two > other role models, now that I've found out about your feet of > clay...... > I absolutely, positively refuse to enter into any further > correspondence on any of the above, because I've forgotten how it all > started.... :-) :-) > > Cheers, > Chris > ============================= With mad metta, Howard P.S. This is fun, but we just might be attracting the moderators' attentions! ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] who is the right person? op 24-02-2002 06:43 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > Your description of Varanasi brought back fond memories of the craziness > there. There were also a few goats on the bus. > > Well, thanks for activating my 'India File' in my brain. Dear Rob Ep, I had a good laugh about your description. But now some more serious matter. You had an interesting discussion with Jon about how we can know who is the right person who can explain the Dhamma in the right way. (I threw away the post, but I kept it in memory, perhaps this is not literal what you wrote?) These are questions that naturally come up. There is no clearcut answer, you can only find out for yourself, check yourself: is it true that lobha is like this, that dosa is like that? Is this true that this is kusala, that pleasant feeling with kusala is different from pleasant feeling with lobha? I do not quote now the Kesaputtiya sutta (people call it Kalama sutta, this is not right, it was spoken to the Kalamas of Kesaputta). A. Sujin herself had a teacher who taught her Abhidhamma, A. Neb. But she found out herself that satipatthana should be developed naturally in daily life: no forcing, no trying, not focussing on a specific reality. As for me, I listened in India to all her explanations about the underlying idea of self, when listening to Dhamma, when understanding, when thinking, and about the clinging to the importance of self, conceit. I found that I could check these things for myself. When we listen to tapes, we hear this again and again, but what formerly was heard but not completely understood makes much more sense now. I think Kom and others will have the same experience. It takes time, what we hear has to sink in. We may here many times: there is the self who wishes to develop satipatthana, the self who wishes to listen to the Dhamma, but we may not have considered this before. We can verify for ourselves: does it make sense to develop awareness naturally, in daily life? There is no need to convince others, because everyone can only find out for himself. These are just a few thoughts that came up after reading your post. Best wishes from Nina. 11491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Ch 4, no. 3 India, Ch 4, no. 3 We are attached to the idea of my body, but, as Acharn Sujin explained, what is it that appears? When hardness impinges on the bodysense its characteristic can be experienced. Hardness appears and then falls away immediately. We know through remembrance (saññå) that we have arms, legs, and all the other body-parts, but these cannot be experienced, they are concepts that are remembered. When we truly consider that only one characteristic of rúpa is experienced at a time when it impinges on the rúpa that is the body-sense, and that it falls away immediately, we can understand, at least in theory, that our whole body we find so important does not exist in the ultimate sense. We think of who is sitting, we are attached to the idea of a sitting posture. In the ultimate sense rúpa does not sit. A posture is a conglomeration of rúpas we can think of, but it is not real in the ultimate sense. We cling to the idea of my body that is sick or healthy, but the rúpas of which the body consists arise and then fall away immediately, and they do not return. We can begin to consider rúpas such as hardness, sound or visible object as they appear in daily life, but thinking, even in the right way, is not satipatìthåna, the development of direct awareness and understanding. It is a foundation for satipatthåna. Acharn Sujin explained: ³When we touch something, hardness appears. The thinking of a concept follows instantly. Understanding develops if we know that hardness only appears at the point where it touches. The whole body does not appear, we just think of the whole body. What we take for our whole body is not my body, only hardness appears through touch. When one touches hardness one thinks that it is there all the time, but when hardness appears it must have arisen because of conditions. Whatever is real has conditions to arise; the rúpa that has arisen and appears can be the object of understanding. Paññå should be developed so that one will understand that at each moment there is no person there. Realities are not what we think them to be, we think of concepts on account of what is experienced. Understanding should be developed so that the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, conditions the level of paìipatti, the practice, and that again the level of paìivedha, the penetration of the true nature of realities. ³ Some people believe that they should just practise, that study is not necessary, but it is necessary to know what sati and paññå are, what the object of satipatthåna is, and what the conditions are for their arising. As we have seen, the object of satipatthåna is a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality, that appears, not a concept. We should not forget that sati of satipatthåna is a cetasika that arises when there are the appropriate conditions, that it is not self. It is non-forgetful, mindful of the reality that appears, so that right understanding of that reality can be developed at that moment. Sati can be of different levels of kusala, it accompanies each kusala citta, it is non-forgetful of kusala: it arises with dåna, generosity, with síla, morality, with samatha and with the development of satipatthåna. Only through satipatthåna the wrong view of self can be eradicated. When we perform dåna, sati accompanies the kusala citta that is non-forgetful of kusala, but when sati is not of the level of satipatthåna, we are bound to take dåna for ³our dåna², for self. It is the same in the case of síla and samatha, if satipatthåna is not developed, one is bound to take these ways of kusala for self. Paññå is a cetasika that arises when there are the appropriate conditions, it is non-self. It may arise with dåna and síla, but it does not always accompany these ways of kusala. Paññå always accompanies mental development, including samatha and vipassanå. When we study the teachings and we acquire intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa, sati and paññå accompany the kusala citta. However, thinking of paramattha dhammas is not the same as direct awareness and understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, and this is satipatthåna. 11492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo op 24-02-2002 02:41 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: .Dhammika told me in his > email,last week,that > after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees near > Laotian border and was > travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both dieing > instantly,is this correct,or > am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most > inspiring monks,that > opened my eyes to many things. Dear Michael, the story is a bit different. He worked for some time for the refugees. His mother and her friend came over for a vacation, and they went with A. Sujin to Ayuthya, to the home of a friend's mother. There Alan (former Phra Dh) listened intently and very relaxed to a Dhamma talk, and afterwards he and his mother went in a car with two friends, one of them on the wheel, but A. Sujin was not with them. Another car coming from the opposite direction went on the wrong side of the road and collided with them. He and his mother died. Jon and Sarah came over for the cremation and Jon gave the eulogy. (I did not see the text, is it available, Jon?)His ashes were taken into a boat and put into the river together with a portrait of him. I understand that you still find this difficult to take, you only heard it recently. Now I quote something Sarah wrote to Christine because of the tragedy of her daughter's friends: > We may think that your friends suffered in a horrific > way, but in Bangkok we discussed how really at any time, including the end > of life, there are just different experiences and feelings as there are > now. We don’t even know that your friends experienced any particular > unpleasantness, as events may have happened too fast. We would say, from a > Buddhist point of view, that life will be continuing in one form or other > just like it is for us now. end quote. A. Sujin said, the five khandhas go on and on in a next life, we do not know on which plane it is. Surely, all his accumulated understanding is not lost, it will somehow bring a good result. And even now, think of all the people he has helped to have more understanding and can develop understanding now. Also this goes on and on. I also wrote a letter about him, it may appear later on on a web. The last time Lodewijk and I saw him was in Rathbury where he went with A. Sujin to explain Dhamma to a group. He often went with her to the provinces. At lunch there we discussed visible object and thinking of a concept. He said, when you look at the floor you see what is visible but you do not pay attention to a special thing. When you are looking for a pin you notice that there is a pin lying there, you pay attention to a concept, and that is different from just seeing visible object. We took leave and then he was smiling very gently while waving and waving to us. That was the last time. Best wishes from Nina. > 11493 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow --- Dear sarah, Actually my reply was rather abrupt; we're marking exams at he moment and I slip out for quick breaks. A couple of people have asked me to turn the series into an article which I may do if I ever have time and in that case I will reword the part you mentioned or add a footnote. thanks robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Understood. > > Many thanks and yes, the 'warm dogshit' was a good example;-) > > Sarah > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > Yes, it is true that we can't always be sure that any given citta is > > kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. For instance, I mentioned a while > > back the case of holding a warm soft dogshit in the hand and how most > > people think this is akusala. However, the Patthana commentary noted > > that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because warm > > and soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for > > obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate > > many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing. > > > > In my example above I do not think it is wrong to say that there is > > kusala vipaka when reading Dhamma, otherwise we have to be so > > detailed and specific and point out intricate matters that can > > distract from the main point. We can see many examples from the texts > > where the Buddha spoke generally without doing this. > > In the case above it is certainly true that while reading the > > message there would have been many moments of akusala vipaka that > > passed unnoticed but as I was writing in order to simplify a complex > > topic I think it is appropriate to ignore this. People already > > complain about Abhidhmamma on d-l where I started this series; they > > find it scholarly. If I bring in too many points it can turn people > > off. > > best wishes > > robert > > > > > 11494 From: Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samapatti (smallchap) Dear Smallchap, Let me say hi to you first. My name is Num. Nice meeting you. < > No nothing is inconvenient but pretty much I know about my aunt is that she is my aunt. No she is not a nun, she is a lay person who is very interested in studying dhamma as well as helping other to understand dhamma. She has been going to the foundation and listening to A.Sujin for many years. I do not know exactly what does she do at the foundation. I have never been there, myself. I have heard that she has been giving some talks over there with other speakers/lecturers. I started listening to A.Sujin by being a second hand listener (smoker) b/c I stayed at my aunt's house for a year when I first moved to Bangkok for my high school. I am now living in the US, so I sometimes ask her to send me some dhamma books to read. I just started talking with her about some dhamma not long ago. As far as I can tell, she knows a whole lot more than me and she is fun to discuss dhamma with. She has never told me to do any particular practices. As I understand, she kind of told me to keep listening and reading until I do not want to do or practice any particular rites !!!! As Christine said, I consider kalayanamitta (good, benevolent friend) highly. <> I have to say the same thing to you, pls pardon about my Pali. All Pali I know are pretty much what we use in Thai literature. I have no direct experiences with any of the samapatti. This is completely beyond my scope. Since you have asked, I can tell you from what I have read. So this is completely book knowledge, ok. 3 samapatti (means enriching arrival or reaching): 1.jhanasamapatti: (jhanna means absorption) this is mundane reaching of jhana. 2.palasamapatti: (pala means result) this is supramundane reaching of pala-citta. 3.nirodhasamapatti: (nirodha mean ceasing) this is neither mundane nor supramundane. Citta is temporary ceased during this samapatti. This one needs both jhanasamapatti and at least the 3rd level of the palasamapatti as its base. It's said that once one reaches the stage of samapatti, the citta in 1 or 2 can keep arising and falling away consecutively without other citta intervening as long as one wants (or stage of no citta in 3). As far as I can get from reading, those 3 stages are the ultimate bliss. Source: abhidhammatthasangaha, pc 4:samapatti-vithi. Hope I do not turn you off with more confusing Pali terms. Studying has different levels. I think learning about names of realities may not even be necessary or sufficient. Let me say this, dhamma is here and now,:seeing, hearing, ….., thinking or recognizing name is all dhamma (reality). Let me change back from a parrot into a human form, OK. Best wishes. Num PS. May I also ask for your introduction as well. 11495 From: Date: Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas and realities Thanks Jon, I never understood the stream-entry metaphor. This is very enlightening and exciting! I thought crossing the stream was navigating through the turmoils of life, but this makes me think it is navigating through the turmoils of a dhamma commitment. Larry ----------------------------- SN 55, 5. What is a factor for stream-entry? Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. What is the stream? This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, fright mindfulness, right concentration. What is a stream-enterer? One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan. SN 55, 55-61 Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … of arahantship. 11496 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas and realities --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks Jon, > > I never understood the stream-entry metaphor. This is very enlightening > and exciting! I thought crossing the stream was navigating through the > turmoils of life, but this makes me think it is navigating through the > turmoils of a dhamma commitment. > > Larry Very briefly, Larry, in the suttas-- - the stream is a metaphor for the path of one bound for final enlightenment - stream-entry is the first experience of this path, which is the 1st stage of enlightenment; once this stage has been reached the person is bound to attain final enlightenment in due course - one who has entered the stream is a stream-enterer (sotapanna) - one who has entered the stream is also called a 'trainer' (sevaka); one who has yet to enter the stream is called a worldling, while one who has attained to final enlightenment is called 'beyond training' (asevaka). I think the above is fairly generally agreed. What is not so well recognised, but which this sutta clearly confirms, is that the Noble Eightfold Path in the strict sense of that term means the same thing as the stream, ie. the path from initial to final enlightenment. The 8 factors of the Path arise together for the first time at the first stage of enlightenment, and not before. A person in whom the 8 factors arise 'possesses' the path. Hope this helps clarify these references. The allusion is not so much to crossing the stream as to being borne along by the current of the stream (I think - corrections welcome!) Jon > ----------------------------- > SN 55, 5. > What is a factor for stream-entry? > Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing > the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a > factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a > factor for stream-entry. > What is the stream? > This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right > intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > fright mindfulness, right concentration. > What is a stream-enterer? > One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this > venerable one of such a name and clan. > > SN 55, 55-61 > Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the > obtaining of wisdom, … to the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion > of wisdom, … to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … to > the realization of the fruit of arahantship. > What four? > Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful > attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, > when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, … to > the growth of wisdom, … to the expansion of wisdom, … to the > realization of the fruit of stream-entry, … of arahantship. > 11497 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: Nina's India Ch 4, no. 3, Robert K's Paticcasamuppada 3 etc. Hi Nina, Robert K, Kom, Num, Jon, Sarah and all, You all don't see me on the list very often. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate all useful discussions and recollections from trips. They are very good reminders not only of the Buddha's teaching, the right understanding and how it develops, but also things that are 'closer' to us such as deaths and suffering mentioned in recent posts. Nina, I enjoy all your posts. Jon and Sarah, thanks for being so active and patient in keeping us together. Robert K, I like how you talked about the death-conciousness in your paticcasamuppada 3. Now, I can see that it is just another citta just like 'my' seeing-conciousness. And I also can see that we are 'dead' at every moment! In stead of feeling frightened, I feel that there NO reasons for us to cling to anything around us even 'our life'. I hope that's what you meant. I have nothing to add to the posts. I just wanted to reiterate my appreciation to all of you. Please keep up good work, and may it condition the right understanding to rise upon you all. Regards, jaran 11498 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: Nina's India Ch 4, no. 3, Robert K's Paticcasamuppada 3 etc. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "jaranoh" wrote: > Hi Nina, Robert K, Kom, Num, Jon, Sarah and all, > > > Robert K, I like how you talked about the death-conciousness in your > paticcasamuppada 3. Now, I can see that it is just another citta just > like 'my' seeing-conciousness. And I also can see that we are 'dead' > at every moment! In stead of feeling frightened, I feel that there NO > reasons for us to cling to anything around us even 'our life'. I hope > that's what you meant. >______________ Dear Jaran, It sure makes me a lot more relaxed when thinking about death. Hope to meet you in bangkok sometime during the next year. robert 11499 From: smallchap Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:49am Subject: Re: samapatti (smallchap) Dear Num, >Let me say hi to you first. My name is Num. Nice meeting you. Nice meeting you too. I am a male chinese Singaporean living in Singapore. I started leaning Theravada Buddhism since I was 26. I have been practising Theravada Buddhist meditation on and off for about 20 years. > No nothing is inconvenient but pretty much I know about my aunt is that she > is my aunt. No she is not a nun, she is a lay person who is very interested > in studying dhamma as well as helping other to understand dhamma. She has > been going to the foundation and listening to A.Sujin for many years. I do > not know exactly what does she do at the foundation. I have never been there, > myself. I have heard that she has been giving some talks over there with > other speakers/lecturers. I started listening to A.Sujin by being a second > hand listener (smoker) b/c I stayed at my aunt's house for a year when I > first moved to Bangkok for my high school. I am now living in the US, so I > sometimes ask her to send me some dhamma books to read. I just started > talking with her about some dhamma not long ago. As far as I can tell, she > knows a whole lot more than me and she is fun to discuss dhamma with. She has > never told me to do any particular practices. As I understand, she kind of > told me to keep listening and reading until I do not want to do or practice > any particular rites !!!! As Christine said, I consider kalayanamitta (good, > benevolent friend) highly. Thank you very much for introducing your aunt. She is indeed a kalayanamitta (now I learn a new Pali word). It is extraordonary for a lay person to devote her whole life to the learning and propagating (do I use the right word?) the Buddha Dhamma. >I have no direct experiences with any of the samapatti. This is completely beyond my scope. Since you have asked, I can tell you from what I have read. So this is completely book knowledge, ok. > > 3 samapatti (means enriching arrival or reaching): > 1.jhanasamapatti: (jhanna means absorption) this is mundane reaching of jhana. > 2.palasamapatti: (pala means result) this is supramundane reaching of pala-citta. > 3.nirodhasamapatti: (nirodha mean ceasing) this is neither mundane nor supramundane. Citta is temporary ceased during this samapatti. This one > needs both jhanasamapatti and at least the 3rd level of the palasamapatti as > its base. > > It's said that once one reaches the stage of samapatti, the citta in 1 or 2 > can keep arising and falling away consecutively without other citta > intervening as long as one wants (or stage of no citta in 3). As far as I can > get from reading, those 3 stages are the ultimate bliss. And thank you for explaining jhanasammapatti, palasammapatti and nirodhasammapatti to me. It is certainly beyond my scope too. Is there now an enlightened being on earth who can attain nirodhasammapatti? Once again, thank you very much. You are my kalayatanamitta too. smallchap 11500 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:14am Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Hi Sarah, Thanks for your post. It did shed some new insight for me. However, I still stubbornly maintain that the 4th vipallasa (seeing the foul as the beautiful) does not belong in the exalted company of the first 3 vipallasas/perversions. Why? Even if we take the broader definition and application of subha/asubha extending beyond perceiving/cognizing/viewing foul humans as beautiful to all sensory objects, there are still two problems that I see. 1) this 4th vipallasa to me seems like a very distant derivative of dukkha,anicca,anatta rather than something so primary that it belongs in their company deserving individual recognition. 2) the 4th vipallasa is not well expressed to begin with. Foul vs. beautiful already has connotations of craving and aversion. Seeing beautiful in the non beautiful is a problem, but seeing it as foul is also a problem. If one really were free of erroneous perception/cognition/views, then one would not see something as EITHER foul or beautiful, but rather as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. I don't mean to sound Mahayanist, but I think nondiscrimination, or non-misperception, non-wrong-view would be a more fitting term for a 4th Vipallasa, if a 4th vipallasa is even warranted. Again, I think that anicca,dukkha,anatta more than sufficiently covers the nature of reality. I also have a problem with the chart which tries to make super clean delineations between vipallasa/perversion/distortion at the level of views, perception, and consciousness among the various stages of enlightenment. Obviously, there has to be different magnitudes and granularities of misperceptions of reality among different stages of cultivation, but it seems too clean and implausible that these different magnitudes can be characterized by views, perception, and consciousness as if they were completely independent entities. For example, a view is nothing more than a complex conglomeration of various aggregates of volition, perception, consciousness. How can a view suddenly be purified/unperverted/un-vipallasa'd without the constituent parts not been purified? Makes no sense to me. I see the purification of the vipallasas as a continuous spectrum with no clear delineations or discrete stages that we can definitively pin down. Perception and consciousnes and aggregates in general are not mathematically independent entities that we can treat separately. The chart makes one think that the vipallasa at the level of perception could somehow be purified while the consciousness aggregate is not. Show me a perception that arises apart from consciousness. How can they be treated as independent entities? Perhaps the whole attempt to break down the process of cultivation and enlightenment into discrete clean stages is a bigger vipallasa, kind of like how we take the non-self to be the self. I nominate a 5th vipallasa :-) I'm not trying to be controversial or heretical. I do think there is value is trying to analyze and understand how delusion is attenuated, but I am completely unconvinced that it happens in such a clean discrete way. -fk --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Frank, Num and Christine, > > Num wrote: > > >You mentioned about asuba, I > > > > think this word has a very deep meaning, things > are not that as pretty > > as we > > perceived b/c they are arisen and completely > fallen away. > > > We discussed a little more about vipallasas in > Bangkok and your pertinent > comment reminded me that Frank was asking some time > ago about subha > (beautiful) and asubha (foul) (I don’t think anyone > replied directly, > solet me do a cut and paste job here): > > Frank: > > Now, I happen to be one of the big proponents of > the > > contemplation of impurities, and seeing the body > as > > loathsome. I think it's a big mistake for modern > > westerners to neglect this aspect of practice > because > > it doesn't accord with their more delicate > > sensibilities. However, I don't think that 4th > > vipallasa belongs in the company of the other 3. > > Just as a reminder (Num or Kom, let me know if I > slip up anytime here): > > The vipallasas are of 3 kinds, i.e sanna-vipallasa > (perversion of > perception), citta-vipallasa (perversion of > consciousness) and > ditthi-vipallasa (perversion of view). Of these, the > first two arise now > with every akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness) > while the third > (ditthi vipallasa) arises whenever there is wrong > view and is eradicated > by the sotapanna. > > The 4 perversions themselves (i.e. 4x3 categories) > are a) regarding > impermanent as permanent, b) painful as pleasant, c) > non-self as self, d) > foul as beautiful. (see Kom’s clearer grid and > details at the end of the > post). > > With regard to the last one (foul as beautiful), the > wrong view about it > has been eradicated by the sotapanna, but the sanna > and citta-vipallasas > which cling to the beautiful in the foul are only > eradicated by the > anagami (3rd stage of enlightenment). > > As I understand, sometimes when we read about asubha > and asubha sanna, it > is referring to the parts of the body as in the > cemetery contemplations, > when the foulness of the body is used as object of > samatha > (asubha-kammatthana) as Frank discussed. > > However, when we are discussing the vipallasas, the > meaning is not > confined to parts of the body at all. If we look at > the computer and think > it’s a nice colour or preferable to the colour of > the wall, there is > clinging (with or without wrong view) to beauty in > the foul. Hence, sanna > and citta vipallasa with regard to taking what is > asubha (foul) for subha > (beautiful) is only eradicated by the anagami along > with the attachment to > sense pleasures . > > Frank, I hope this helps. Attachment to sense > objects is so pernicious. > The anagami has no more of this kind of attachment > but still has (very > subtle) attachment for other objects such as bhava > (becoming), kusala > citta or samadhi. The only perversions the anagami > still has are sanna and > citta vipallasa with regard to finding pleasure in > the painful (i.e. > finding sukkha in dukkha) which is only eradicated > by the arahat. (Vism > XX11,68). > > Let me finish with a quote from B.Bodhi’s > translation of ‘Distortions of > Perception, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how > ‘mentally deranged’ we > are: > > “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, > Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, > And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - > Such folk resort to distorted views, > mentally deranged, subject to illusions. > Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, > They are still far from the secure state. > Such beings wander through the painful round > And go repeatedly from birth to death. > But when the Buddhas appear in the world, > The makers of light in a mass of darkness, > They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, > That leads to the end of suffering. > When people with wisdom listen to them, > They at last regain their sanity. > They see the impermanent as impermanent, > And they see suffering just as suffering. > They see the selfless as void of self, > And in the foul they see the foul. > By this acceptance of right view, > They overcome all suffering.” > ********** > > May right view be developed to ‘overcome all > suffering’. > > Sarah > =========================================== > > From Kom’s earlier post: > > As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: > 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) > 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) > 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) > > Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only > with the > 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) > with > micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and > citta > vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some > ariyans > exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in > sobhana > (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu > cetasikkas) cittas. > > The objects of the vipalassa are four: > 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance > 2) Seeing dukha as sukha > 3) Seeing anatta as atta > 4) Seeing asubha as subha > > The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one > becomes > an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are > as > followed: > > ...... ........Impermanence Dukha Anatta > Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > SagatakamiX X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > ********** 11501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:08am Subject: India Ch 4, No. 4 India Ch 4, no. 4 The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. The right condition is the firm foundation knowledge of the teachings. Thus, study of realities of our life and considering them as they appear in our life. It depends on the individual¹s inclinations to what extent he will study the details about citta, cetasika and rúpa and the different processes of cittas, but a basic knowledge of realities is necessary. Each person is unique, there are no rules with regard to the development of understanding. But at the present time it has to be a development that takes a long time (cira kala bhavana). Acharn Supee Thumthong who teaches Påli in Bangkok remarked that when he studies realities he keeps firmly in mind that the results become apparent only when the conditions are fulfilled. If paññå does not arise to realize the dhammas that appear, it means that one's understanding about the dhammas at tthe paññatti level is not firm enough. He said that if one truly understands this, one will not struggle and strive for results. In other words, one will develop understanding naturally and not force oneself, trying to reach a level one is not yet ready for. Acharn Sujin reminded us that people living at the time of a previous Buddha, the Buddha Dípaòkara, were very patient. We read in the ³Khuddhaka Nikåya², ³Chronicle of the Buddhas² (II A, Account of Sumedha, vs. 71-75) that devas and men rejoiced when they heard that the Buddha Dípankara proclaimed Sumedha to be the future Buddha. We read that they said: If we should fail of the Dispensation (teachings) of this protector of the world, in the distant future we will be face to face with this one. As men, crossing a river but, failing of the ford to the bank opposite, taking a ford lower down cross over the great river, even so, all of us, if we miss (the words of) this Conqueror, in the distant future will be face to face with this one 1. They realized that the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that it takes aeons. The Bodhisatta had to listen to twentyfour Buddhas before he could attain Buddhahood in his last life. We can still study his teachings, but time will come that these disappear. There will be a future Buddha, Ariya Metteyya, and if we do not attain enlightenment in this Buddha era, we may have an opportunity to listen to his teachings. When Acharn Sujin spoke of the gladness and patience of people at the time of Sumedha, I said that I found it difficult to be glad about the prospect of having to wait for many aeons until paññå is developed. But Acharn Sujin reminded us to have courage and gladness while developing right understanding. It is true, when paññå arises there cannot be anxiety at the same time. Paññå can be developed at the present moment and we should not think of the future and how long the road is; what counts is only the present moment. There is no self who can do anything and thus, it is of no use to think of an idea of ³my progress². Listening to the Dhamma, studying it and considering it are the right conditions for satipatthåna. We had Dhamma conversations in different places: apart from the holy sites, we discussed the Dhamma in hotel halls when waiting for the bus, in dining rooms and also in a teashop along the road when the drivers had to rest. I quote from a discussion in a teashop where we sat at a long table, drinking Indian tea. Acharn Sujin said: ³We say, everything is dhamma, but are these just words? How can we understand the characteristics of nåma and rúpa if there is no direct awareness of them? We are talking about seeing and hardness, but there may not be direct awareness of a characteristic, just one at a time. There is seeing now, but no awareness of it. When awareness arises we are beginning to understand seeing right now. There is no need to think about it whether there is awareness of this citta that sees or a past moment of citta that sees, that is thinking. There can be awareness of any reality that sees now. However, we should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rúpa are, so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it is wrong. Seeing sees all the time but there is no development of understanding of seeing, we are only thinking about seeing. Seeing appears, and this means that seeing at that moment is the object of satipatthåna, and only in this way right understanding of it can develop. Paññå begins to grow by understanding the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and the characteristic of sati. The development of satipatthåna should be very natural, if it is not natural one is on the wrong way. Someone is on the wrong way if he clings to an idea of self who can act in a particular way to make sati arise, instead of just understanding reality. Paññå can understand any reality that has arisen because of its own conditions. We cannot know of what object sati will be aware, this is beyond expectation.² By study, listening and considering the Dhamma there can each time be just a little more understanding and we should be grateful for that. It should be enough for the moment, because, as Acharn Sujin often said, paññå works it way. It is accumulated little by little. ***** Footnote 1. They will be face to face with the Buddha Gotamma, who was previously the Bodhisatta Sumedha. ******* 11502 From: Lee Dillion Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 Nina van Gorkom wrote: In your post, you note the following: > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. and > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > it takes aeons. Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? -- Lee Dillion 11503 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Dear Christine, I respect your decision. For everyone's mental health, I think it's for the best. Now, please excuse me, I must go reflect on metta. With sincere regards, Robert Ep. "disappointed but not defeated" ================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Howard and Rob, > > In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day > limit as is being mooted on 'another list', I have decided to > amalgamate my response to you two dear gentlemen. (How would you > survive Rob on three posts a day? How would many of us survive? The > third post would have to be "Sorry ..... .... you > weren't drawn out of the hat today, better luck tomorrow"). > Howard, are you sure all frogs are amphibians - what about tree- > frogs? And desert frogs? > Rob - I'm not so sure about your suggestion of a crocodile as an > alternative....all very well for you, but I'm the one who is supposed > to get on the lily-pad with him! And is a crocodile an amphibian? I > DO like "the swamp of samsara" though, nearly as memorable as MikeB > and his 'drowning mouse in a hurricane'...(what was it doing out of a > pantry or a linen cupboard and in that weather?) > I've actually turned off the idea of promoting Howards' Speaking > Tour - he seems to be developing Delusions of Grandeur > about "collecting many followers", and Rob....such a Mercenary > Spirit - percentages and royalties ....I'll have to find two > other role models, now that I've found out about your feet of > clay...... > I absolutely, positively refuse to enter into any further > correspondence on any of the above, because I've forgotten how it all > started.... :-) :-) > > Cheers, > Chris > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hi, Christine - > > > > > > In a message dated 2/24/02 3:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > "Tongue-zap enlightenment" ...... Is this a Buddhist Doctrine? > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > It first appeared in a sub-, sub-, sub-commentary by an > arahant who > > > had visited the naga realm. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Didn't realize they had frogs there. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11504 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] automatic?Rob.E Dear Rob K., Wonderful post, Rob, and I thank you. Without going into the details, I really appreciated all that you laid out here. I think it's very helpful. I will say more after I have a chance to absorb what you've writting and see if I have anything worthwhile to add. But I thought it was a remarkably clear post. Beyond that, I would only say that I was intrigued by the admonition in the sutta to smear your floor with mud to keep it clean. Best, Robert Ep. =========== --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Robert K, > I assume you would think that one's > 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also > be > something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then > really, it > is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better > or > worse? > Rob E. > _______________ > > Dear Rob. E., > This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it > so I just give some hints. Your comment about determinism/freewill to Jon > is the question that haunts all aspects of philosophy and always will. > Even the Chrsitians used to argue it; cf. the debates betwen Erasmus and > Luther that Dan pointed out to me.. > > To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because > one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about > letting go: only words. > > As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, > right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends > the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight > depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his > disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are > other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to > assist insight. Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions > that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions > from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of > vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one > understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata > (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there > should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to > more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear > more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising > in the present, but built on past ones. > Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so > fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the > Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained > Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But > he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed > ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs > (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The > commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a > ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't > overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in > conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had > volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that > ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard > delusion to see through. > > In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But > when volition, along with other dhammas, is properly understood (a long > process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. > Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly > apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. > However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those > conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought > they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a > palliative to the symptoms. > > I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all > dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by > anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they > are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, > simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study > directly of dhammas for any real insight - but, and I think this is what > Jon is showing, this type of study is only real if it is done without > desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort > needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching. I think > people with a zen background like you and Ken O get this point fairly > readily. > > While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along > with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is > arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still > arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya > (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago > when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those > past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so > other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed. > > Also it is not that being in quiet places isn't helpful. In fact it can > be very useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote > oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to > the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' > will be distorted by view. > There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the > Satipatthana sutta commentary: > "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor(wisdom): > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis > (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting > evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the > ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference > of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), > sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the > development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental > objects. > > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of > the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling > faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, > the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for > explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas > with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. > > Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, > and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a > lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick > splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil > and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So > it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental > qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to > be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is > apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this > enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. > > Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the > head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt > of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired > when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one > lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be > secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics > and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing > and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way > external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and > dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and > the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to > keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote > robert > > > 11505 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:33pm Subject: correction automatic?Rob.E --- Thanks Rob. I just tried to find the part in the commentary where it says Sunnakhata lived 500 consecutive lives as dog duty ascetic and can't find it. I think I made a mistake and he had many lives as a dog duty ascetic but NOT consecutive. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Rob K., > Wonderful post, Rob, and I thank you. > > Without going into the details, I really appreciated all that you laid out here. > I think it's very helpful. I will say more after I have a chance to absorb what > you've writting and see if I have anything worthwhile to add. But I thought it > was a remarkably clear post. > > Beyond that, I would only say that I was intrigued by the admonition in the sutta > to smear your floor with mud to keep it clean. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > =========== > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Robert K, > > I assume you would think that one's > > 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also > > be > > something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then > > really, it > > is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better > > or > > worse? > > Rob E. > > _______________ > > > > Dear Rob. E., > > This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it > > so I just give some hints. Your comment about determinism/freewill to Jon > > is the question that haunts all aspects of philosophy and always will. > > Even the Chrsitians used to argue it; cf. the debates betwen Erasmus and > > Luther that Dan pointed out to me.. > > > > To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because > > one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about > > letting go: only words. > > > > As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma- ditthi, > > right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends > > the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight > > depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his > > disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are > > other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to > > assist insight. Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions > > that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions > > from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of > > vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one > > understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata > > (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there > > should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to > > more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear > > more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising > > in the present, but built on past ones. > > Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so > > fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the > > Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained > > Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But > > he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed > > ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs > > (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The > > commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a > > ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't > > overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in > > conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had > > volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that > > ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard > > delusion to see through. > > > > In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But > > when volition, along with other dhammas, is properly understood (a long > > process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. > > Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly > > apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. > > However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those > > conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought > > they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a > > palliative to the symptoms. > > > > I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all > > dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by > > anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they > > are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, > > simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study > > directly of dhammas for any real insight - but, and I think this is what > > Jon is showing, this type of study is only real if it is done without > > desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort > > needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching. I think > > people with a zen background like you and Ken O get this point fairly > > readily. > > > > While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along > > with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is > > arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still > > arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya > > (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago > > when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those > > past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so > > other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed. > > > > Also it is not that being in quiet places isn't helpful. In fact it can > > be very useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote > > oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to > > the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' > > will be distorted by view. > > There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the > > Satipatthana sutta commentary: > > "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor (wisdom): > > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis > > (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting > > evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the > > ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference > > of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), > > sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the > > development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental > > objects. > > > > Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of > > the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling > > faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, > > the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for > > explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas > > with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. > > > > Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, > > and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a > > lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick > > splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil > > and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So > > it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental > > qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to > > be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is > > apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this > > enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. > > > > Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the > > head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt > > of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired > > when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one > > lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be > > secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics > > and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing > > and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way > > external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and > > dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and > > the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to > > keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote > > robert 11506 From: Victor Yu Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:49pm Subject: Kamma Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.145 Kamma Sutta Action Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak. "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma. "And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- See also: "Kamma & the Ending of Kamma" from the book Wings to Awakening. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html Udana III.1 Kamma Sutta Action Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. The Blessed One saw him sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: For the monk who has left all kamma behind, shaking off the dust of the past, steady, without longing, Such*: there's no point in telling anyone else. (*tadi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-01.html 11507 From: michael newton Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:13:54 +0100 >Hello!Nina; Thank you,for clarifying what happened to Alan(phra Dammadaro)still very trajic,I believe that Alan,is in the beyond,next world,in a good situation,because he was true to the teachings and was a very helpful and giving person.I will forward your email to Ven.Dhammika.Tahnk you.ANICCA,DHUKKHA,ANATTA, MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY.MICHAEL >op 24-02-2002 02:41 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: > >.Dhammika told me in his > > email,last week,that > > after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees >near > > Laotian border and was > > travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both >dieing > > instantly,is this correct,or > > am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most > > inspiring monks,that > > opened my eyes to many things. > >Dear Michael, the story is a bit different. He worked for some time for the >refugees. His mother and her friend came over for a vacation, and they went >with A. Sujin to Ayuthya, to the home of a friend's mother. There Alan >(former Phra Dh) listened intently and very relaxed to a Dhamma talk, and >afterwards he and his mother went in a car with two friends, one of them on >the wheel, but A. Sujin was not with them. Another car coming from the >opposite direction went on the wrong side of the road and collided with >them. He and his mother died. Jon and Sarah came over for the cremation and >Jon gave the eulogy. (I did not see the text, is it available, Jon?)His >ashes were taken into a boat and put into the river together with a >portrait >of him. I understand that you still find this difficult to take, you only >heard it recently. Now I quote something Sarah wrote to Christine because >of >the tragedy of her daughter's friends: > > We may think that your friends suffered in a horrific > > way, but in Bangkok we discussed how really at any time, including the >end > > of life, there are just different experiences and feelings as there are > > now. We don’t even know that your friends experienced any particular > > unpleasantness, as events may have happened too fast. We would say, from >a > > Buddhist point of view, that life will be continuing in one form or >other > > just like it is for us now. end quote. > >A. Sujin said, the five khandhas go on and on in a next life, we do not >know >on which plane it is. Surely, all his accumulated understanding is not >lost, >it will somehow bring a good result. And even now, think of all the people >he has helped to have more understanding and can develop understanding now. >Also this goes on and on. >I also wrote a letter about him, it may appear later on on a web. The last >time Lodewijk and I saw him was in Rathbury where he went with A. Sujin to >explain Dhamma to a group. He often went with her to the provinces. At >lunch >there we discussed visible object and thinking of a concept. He said, when >you look at the floor you see what is visible but you do not pay attention >to a special thing. When you are looking for a pin you notice that there is >a pin lying there, you pay attention to a concept, and that is different >from just seeing visible object. We took leave and then he was smiling very >gently while waving and waving to us. That was the last time. Best wishes >from Nina. > > > > > > 11508 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] who is the right person? Dear Nina, Great note, and very personalized for my thoughts and inquiries. It is much appreciated. I happen to have been ruminating about this subject myself today, and so I feel that we are slightly coordinated at the moment, which is nice [and feeds my fantasies about the synchronous nature of the universe]. What sometimes seems a bit stark to me in Jon's formulation of how far we are from being able to trust our instincts or feelings about what is kusala or akusala, is that I didn't have a strong sense of the gradual building up of that capability which your post addresses. Of course, there is also something very positive in Jon's formulation, is that it forces one to confront the unyielding reality that we are not as capable as our ego-sense would glibly like to assert. That's a hard one for me, and I've been taking stock of how far there is to go on the path. There's something positive about that too: it explains a lot. When recurrent akusala sufferings keep arising even after they've been intellectually understood and 'worked on' there's a tendency to think: well, why haven't these things gone away by now? But when you understand how long and hard the path is, then it's easier to take a deep breath and just pay attention to this phase of the journey, even if it's kindergarten. That's just the way it is! Good for me to acknowledge insights when they pop up, but also very important to take stock and have some realistic understanding of how far away real understanding is. But then something else 'good' happens in doing that: I've gotten a kind of glimpse of how 'real' discernment might develop, and your description is very supportive in this understanding. It is not that one's understanding and intuition are unimportant. It is that we have to move carefully and not take for granted that our perceptions are real. We have to inspect everything and be open to finding new things in it. What you say about the pleasant feeling that is kusala vs. the pleasant feeling that is akusala and gradually coming to be able to tell the difference, is very hopeful. It means we actually can look for ourselves and 'taste' those different flavors until we get a more discriminating tongue. And one day we will be able to say with certainty: 'Well that tastes good, but I can tell it's unhealthy'. Or: 'That tastes horrible, but I can tell it's medicine.' At least if that capability is potentially there, then there's every reason to be hopeful and keep allowing things to gradually fall into place. What you say about how you assess the teachings of both, I presume, the suttas, and the 'spiritual friend' is also very good. You have to go to the trouble of remembering what they've actually said, and then go compare that to your experience, one thing at a time, step by step. Then you can actually say with certainty at some point: 'Well, she told me all of these things, and an awful lot of them checked out.' Then you can settle in and keep receiving the teachings. I now understand what Jon was trying to say, and didn't quite pick up through my own conceptual smoke: that these faculties and capabilities can be developed, but that we should be very cautious before assuming at each step and at each level, that what we get on our radar screen is the true reflection of what's taking place. And that's a very good admonition. Somewhere the Buddha said that the simple virtue of patience was the most difficult and most important of the virtues. It seems true that taking the time to look and understand slowly and thoroughly is hard, but very fruitful. And having the perserverence to settle in for a journey that is very long but that has a certainty of success if followed steadily, is hard, but well worth it. Here's to developing those capabilities. Thank you very much for your note! Best, Robert Ep. ========================= --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 24-02-2002 06:43 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > Your description of Varanasi brought back fond memories of the craziness > > there. > There were also a few goats on the bus. > > > > Well, thanks for activating my 'India File' in my brain. > > Dear Rob Ep, I had a good laugh about your description. But now some more > serious matter. You had an interesting discussion with Jon about how we can > know who is the right person who can explain the Dhamma in the right way. (I > threw away the post, but I kept it in memory, perhaps this is not literal > what you wrote?) These are questions that naturally come up. > There is no clearcut answer, you can only find out for yourself, check > yourself: is it true that lobha is like this, that dosa is like that? Is > this true that this is kusala, that pleasant feeling with kusala is > different from pleasant feeling with lobha? I do not quote now the > Kesaputtiya sutta (people call it Kalama sutta, this is not right, it was > spoken to the Kalamas of Kesaputta). > A. Sujin herself had a teacher who taught her Abhidhamma, A. Neb. But she > found out herself that satipatthana should be developed naturally in daily > life: no forcing, no trying, not focussing on a specific reality. > As for me, I listened in India to all her explanations about the underlying > idea of self, when listening to Dhamma, when understanding, when thinking, > and about the clinging to the importance of self, conceit. I found that I > could check these things for myself. When we listen to tapes, we hear this > again and again, but what formerly was heard but not completely understood > makes much more sense now. I think Kom and others will have the same > experience. It takes time, what we hear has to sink in. We may here many > times: there is the self who wishes to develop satipatthana, the self who > wishes to listen to the Dhamma, but we may not have considered this before. > We can verify for ourselves: does it make sense to develop awareness > naturally, in daily life? There is no need to convince others, because > everyone can only find out for himself. These are just a few thoughts that > came up after reading your post. > Best wishes from Nina. 11509 From: Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandhas and realities Jon wrote in reference to a comment on stream-entry: "The allusion is not so much to crossing the stream as to being borne along by the current of the stream" -------------- I guess is depends on where you want to go, the other shore or the ocean. Larry 11510 From: Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:44pm Subject: sati Greetings dsg, Is the sati that recognizes not-self just a matter of objectivity? Larry 11511 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I wonder what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- Victor Yu wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.145 > Kamma Sutta > Action > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > "Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the > path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close > attention. I will speak. > "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The > tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & > willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. > > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with > speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. > > "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes > from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is > called the cessation of kamma. > > "And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just > this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right > action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation > of kamma. > > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > See also: "Kamma & the Ending of Kamma" from the book Wings to Awakening. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html > > > > > > Udana III.1 > Kamma Sutta > Action > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, > in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain monk > was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held > erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old > kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. The Blessed One saw him sitting > not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, > piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, > without suffering. > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > > For the monk who has left > all kamma > behind, > shaking off the dust of the past, > steady, without longing, > Such*: > there's no point in telling > anyone else. > (*tadi) 11512 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:55pm Subject: RE: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Dear Frank, This sutta might be relevant to the question of how one thing may be completely eradicated, but the others are not (even though they all co-arise). I don't think there are disputes that all the things must be attenuated when panna arises: it is just that not all of them are eradicated permanently at the same time. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html Regarding to the 4 vipalassa at the same levels, there appear to be some suttas (or suttas with parallel structure) in SN [can't find them at the moment]. I remember them as being the Buddha's words. Even if we don't understand why the categorization, I think we should be study the texts carefully before making a decision that one shouldn't be in the same group as the other. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: frank kuan [mailto:fcckuan@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Cc: nsbb > Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] > Beauty and the Beast > > > 2) the 4th vipallasa is not well expressed to begin > with. Foul vs. beautiful already has connotations of > craving and aversion. Seeing beautiful in the non > beautiful is a problem, but seeing it as foul is also > a problem. If one really were free of erroneous > perception/cognition/views, then one would not see > something as EITHER foul or beautiful, but rather as > impermanent, dukkha, anatta. I don't mean to sound > Mahayanist, but I think nondiscrimination, or > non-misperception, non-wrong-view would be a more > fitting term for a 4th Vipallasa, if a 4th vipallasa > is even warranted. Again, I think that > anicca,dukkha,anatta more than sufficiently covers the > nature of reality. > I also have a problem with the chart which tries to > make super clean delineations between > vipallasa/perversion/distortion at the level of views, > perception, and consciousness among the various stages > of enlightenment. Obviously, there has to be different > magnitudes and granularities of misperceptions of > reality among different stages of cultivation, but it > seems too clean and implausible that these different > magnitudes can be characterized by views, perception, > and consciousness as if they were completely > independent entities. For example, a view is nothing > more than a complex conglomeration of various > aggregates of volition, perception, consciousness. How > can a view suddenly be > purified/unperverted/un-vipallasa'd without the > constituent parts not been purified? Makes no sense to > me. I see the purification of the vipallasas as a > continuous spectrum with no clear delineations or > discrete stages that we can definitively pin down. > Perception and consciousnes and aggregates in general > are not mathematically independent entities that we > can treat separately. The chart makes one think that > the vipallasa at the level of perception could somehow > be purified while the consciousness aggregate is not. > Show me a perception that arises apart from > consciousness. How can they be treated as independent > entities? 11513 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] automatic?Rob.E Dear Robert E, > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 4:04 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com; > dhammastudy@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] automatic?Rob.E > > > Dear Robert K, > I assume you would think that one's > 'not turning away' from anything based on greater > understanding would also > be > something that happens non-volitionally based on > conditions? So then > really, it > is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do > to influence it for better > or > worse? > Rob E. > _______________ > I also would like to get my 2 cents into this discussion (inspired by the Robert K's comprehensive answer). The 4 factors of Sotapanna (as mentioned by Jon in some other posts) are being associated with a wise person, listen to the correct dhamma from the wise person, consider wisely the dhamma already heard, and practice [study the dhamma?] the dhamma appropriate to the dhammas. OK. I think it is "easy" for most of us to understand how the first two work. How about the last two? How does one go about considering wisely the dhamma already heard and how does one practice? Some people may come up with such a practice: since I need to consider wisely the dhamma, then I will make efforts to put things into dhamma perspectives to fulfil this factor. Likewise, since I need to practice, then I need to do special things, or to be at a special place, or in a special time, or with special situations, or make efforts to attend to (to watch) the dhamma that is arising. Guess what? Even if we don't make conscious (conventional) efforts to consider the dhamma as it applies to daily life, the consideration is bound to happen if we spend enough time trying to understand the dhamma (while hearing and when you while not hearing). Considering the dhamma situation is somewhat like thinking about work situation for me. When I spend enough time on either, thinking about either is bound to happen, even when I don't make efforts for it to happen (or even when I don't want it to happen). When you read DSG posts, or write to DSG, you are already considering the dhammas. So, some of these considerations will be wise, some wouldn't be, but they happen naturally and effortlessly (conventional). There would be less of a self (tanha, mana, and dithi), when considering wisely, applying oneself to doing certain tasks believing that one will get specific results because of that application. One understands that when the intricate conditions completely culminates, then the dhamma arises. One understands that one cannot control ANY of the condition as each condition is complexly conditioned by more than a few other dhammas. Pratice (pati-pati, well-rounded comprehension of the dhamma) works in similar ways. No conventional effort is required. When there is enough of other levels of panna, then panna at the pati-pati level rises effortlessly, without the self (tanha, mana, and dithi) directing one to do things to achieve specific results. I really appreciated Num's post about what his aunt told him recently, that he should continue studying the texts, and considering (hopefully wisely!) the dhamma until he has no more inclination to do special (big or small) things to practice. This is so relevant to me: she might as well tell me this directly! Tanha, mana, dithi (the self) by the way, is pa-panca dhammas, dhammas that hinder (slow) wisdom development. kom 11514 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Dear Frank, As usual, I’m impressed by your careful consideration of topics that are not easy to understand and with your challenging comments and questions. I think that the classification of vipallasas helps us to understand (in theory of course) when different kilesa (defilements) are eradicated. This doesn’t mean there should be any focus on particular kilesa or any idea of ‘order’ in terms of developing awareness. Perhaps we can say that attachment to (and wrong view about) sense objects is so great, that any reminders about the ‘foul’ can be helpful. Nina writes in her Book on Rupas: http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html “The element of earth appears as hardness or softness, the element of fire as heat or cold and the element of wind as motion or pressure. Time and again rupas such as hardness or heat impinge on the bodysense but we are forgetful of what things really are. We let ourselves be deceived by the outer appearance of things. The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 100) states that the four Great Elements are “deceivers”: 'And just as the great creatures known as female spirits (yakkhini) conceal their own fearfulness with a pleasing colour, shape and gesture to deceive beings, so too, these elements conceal each their own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc., by means of a pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc., and pleasing shapes of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes and eyebrows, and they deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual essences to be seen....' The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 98) states that the four Great Elements are like the great creatures of a magician who “turns water that is not crystal into crystal, and turns a clod that is not gold into gold....” We are attached to crystal and gold, we are deceived by the outward appearance of things. There is no crystal or gold in the ultimate sense, only rupas which arise and then fall away. " Frank, you ask: >How can a view suddenly be > purified/unperverted/un-vipallasa'd without the > constituent parts not been purified? Makes no sense to > me. I think the answer is that there can be ignorance without wrong view such as at this moment. There may be ignorance of the rupas appearing now, but not necessarily any wrong view that they are self or permanent at this moment. So wrong views (for example of rupas being self or being inherently satisfactory or beautiful) are all eradicated by the sotapanna, while at the same time, the clinging to ‘satisfactoriness’, or ‘beautiful’ remains. Dicussing the vipallasas can help us to understand the distinctions. In the same way, while the anagami has eradicated the ‘seeing the foul in the beautiful’ and all attachment to sense pleasures, other subtle attachments remain. There may still be clinging to life or to jhana experience or to other wholesome states. We can understand how very pervasive and pernicious attachment is. > The chart makes one think that > the vipallasa at the level of perception could somehow > be purified while the consciousness aggregate is not. > Show me a perception that arises apart from > consciousness. How can they be treated as independent > entities? No, I agree, they are not independent at all. When there is citta vipallasa, there must be sanna vipallasa too.The sotapanna has eradicated all ditthi vipallasa and also sanna and citta vipallasas with regard to self and permanence. I recently quoted passages from B.Bodhi's translation of the the Mulapariya Sutta and commentaries which discusses the vipallasas with helpful examples too. > Perhaps the whole attempt to break down the process > of cultivation and enlightenment into discrete clean > stages is a bigger vipallasa, kind of like how we take > the non-self to be the self. I nominate a 5th > vipallasa :-) I'm not trying to be controversial or > heretical. I do think there is value is trying to > analyze and understand how delusion is attenuated, but > I am completely unconvinced that it happens in such a > clean discrete way. I think that here we come to the meaning of cessation, nibbana and the 8fold path. we know that at different stages of enlightenment, different kilesa are eradicated for good. Finally, Frank, I’m not meaning to avoid answering your other points, but I can’t resist adding these verses from the Vism (ch X1) section on ‘Perception of Repulsiveness in Nutriment’23, knowing that you’ll appreciate the earthy reminders;-): “..Hence the Ancients said: ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- Go in all by a single door, But by nine doors come oozing out. ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- Men like to eat in company, But to excrete in secrecy. ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- These a man eats with high delight, And then excretes with dumb disgust. ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- A single night will be enough To bring them to putridity’. ********* Apologies to those who haven’t eaten yet;-) Frank, I’m glad to see (but haven’t read yet) that Kom has also replied on this thread. Pls let us know which of your many good, tricky points have not been answered yet. Sarah ============================ 11515 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Rob K, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear sarah, > Actually my reply was rather abrupt; we're marking exams at he moment > and I slip out for quick breaks. A couple of people have asked me to > turn the series into an article which I may do if I ever have time > and in that case I will reword the part you mentioned or add a > footnote. > thanks Never a prob.....I'll look f/w to reading the article in due course too. When I was college teaching, there were two areas that used to really test my patience. One was exam marking and the other was meetings.... Your long break will come in no time... Sarah =========== 11516 From: Sarah Date: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help! Lost - Howard/RobEp Dear Chris, (Howard and Rob Ep), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Howard and Rob, > > In the interests of staving off the imposition of a three-post-a-day > limit .. Maybe for any (amphibian?) friends who're able to jump so simply and fearlessly from the 'A's' of a Pali text to a lily pad and then to start zapping enlightenment, we should consider imposing a MINIMUM three-post-a-day limit..... Look forward to hearing all your secret remedies and expecially to the review of the 'B's' and 'C's', ... Sarah ===================== 11517 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Dear Mike B, Many thanks for all your fascinating background details. we look forward to any sharing from all your experiences and study. You raise a lot of interesting points, but I'll just skip to the end for now if you don't mind: --- mikebrotherto wrote: > > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful > presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I > wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it > be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never > going to heal'. This is quite amusing and I'm not sure how (on my behalf, let alone anyone else's;-)) to answer the question. Perhaps I should ask what it means to 'be still' and 'let it be' first..... Can we determine the 'being still' by the 'activity', I question? > Nina, especially, your work has been such an influence in creating > appropriate conditions for mindfulness. I am learning Pali by studying > your teaching and can follow you guys most of the time. May all y'all > realize nibbana in this lifetime. I know Nina will be glad to hear your comments. Sometimes I have trouble following 'us guys', so I may be asking you for the odd explanation too;-) Thanks for joining us and telling us more about yourself too (and for the nibbana good wishes;-)) Sarah p.s hope you've just had or are having a good retreat ========================================= 11518 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 - and welcome Lee Dear Lee, I'll also look forward to Nina's or anyone else's reply to you on the useful questions you've raised below. (Of course, when re read the Jatakas, for example, we read about the many, many lives the arahats developed noble qualities. For example, we hear that Sariputta became a sotapanna after hearing the first two lines of a stanza spoken by Assaji, but forget about all the previous lives. Sariputta is of course identified with different characters in dozens of Jatakas.) Anyway, this is just an excuse to also welcome you to dsg. I'll look forward to more of your helpful comments and questions. If you would care to follow Mike B's good example and share anything else about yourself or interest in dhamma, we'd be glad to hear. Best wishes, Sarah ========== --- Lee Dillion wrote: > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > In your post, you note the following: > > > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there > have to > > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of > satipatthåna. > > and > > > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > > it takes aeons. > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana > takes, > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I > am > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process > comes > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea > come > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? > > -- > Lee Dillion 11519 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: llumination of nibbana -Rob Ep Dear Rob Ep, Actually I think the discussion about nibbana and nirodha (cessation) is also very relevant to the other discussions on the 3 rounds and the vipallasas, so I’m going to at this point hand over to the texts I was just reading: --- Robert Epstein wrote: > >... Saying that 'it' is > deathless > makes it sound like it has an independent existence in some other realm > that we > are not a part of, but which we glimpse. If this is the case, it leaves > me even > more confused.........> I’d like to quote from the Sammohavinodani, (Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma commentary), classification of the Truths,532: ********** "Asesaviraaganirodho (“fading away without remainder and cesation”) and so on are all merely synonyms for nibbana. For on coming to nibbana, craving fades away without remainder and ceases, therefore it is called “the fading away without remainder” and cessation of that same craving. And on coming to nibbana, craving is given up, relinquished, let go of, is not adhered to, therefore nibbana is called caago pa.tinissaggo mutti anaalayo (“giving up, relinquishment, letting go, non-adherence”). 'For nibbana is only one. But the names for it are merely so many synonyms for nibbana as names which are all the opposite of the names of formed things, that is to say, fading away without remainder and cessation, giving up, relinquishment, letting go, non-adherence, destruction of greed, destruction of hate, destruction of delusion, destruction of craving, non-arising, non-process, the signless, the desireless, the effortless, non-rebirth, non-appearance, no-destiny, the unborn, the unageing, the unaliling, the deathless, the sorrowless, non-lamentation, non-woe, the undefiled, and so on. 'Now when craving is cut off by the path and has also reached non-occurrence on coming to nibbana, in order to show its absence in those same bases where its arising had been shown he said saa kho pan’esaa (“but this”) and so on. 'Herein, just as a man, on seeing a bitter gourd creeper growing in a fiels, would seek for its root, starting from the tip, and would cut it off, and it would gradually wither and come to non-occurrence, and after that it might be said that the bitter gourd had been made to cease and was abandoned in that field, so indeed like the bitter gourd in the field is craving in the eye, etc. On having its root cut by the Noble Path it would go to non-occurrence on coming to Nibbana. and being thus gone, like the bitter gourd in the field, it would not reappear in those bases..........................Hence, showing its cessation just there , he said...”the eye is dear and agreeable in the world; it is here that that craving is abandoned when it is so, ceases when it does so”...." ********** By understanding the ‘formed’ and the attachment to the formed, slowly the panna will develop which eventually realizes the ‘unformed’ and craving is uprooted. A little later we read more about the 8fold Path factors: ********** "(542). Accordingly right view is taught first among these eight states by the Blessed One because of its great helpfulness to the meditator (yogin) who is practising for the attainment of nibbana. For this is called the light of understanding and the weapon of understanding. Therefore by means of this Right View (which is) called in the prior stage insight knowledge, by destroying the darkness of ignorance and slaying the robbers which are the defilements, the meditator reaches nibbana in safety. .." ********** Rob, you were also asking in another post about how we might know if someone is speaking the true dhamma if we cannot trust our own ‘views’ or ‘intuition’. Let me quote from “Introduction to Buddhist Scriptures’ by Nina available on: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Nina writes: ********** "In the "Discourse on the Sixfold Cleansing"(Middle Length Sayings III, 112) the Buddha speaks about a monk who declares "profound knowledge", who states that he has reached the end of birth, thus, that he is an arahat. The Buddha said that he might be questioned about his understanding so that one knows whether he speaks the truth. In this sutta we read about all realities appearing through the six doors which are the objects of right understanding, no matter whether someone is a beginner on the Path or an arahat. 'We read that the Buddha said to the monks that one may ask the monk who states that he is an arahat the following question: "Your reverence, these four modes of statement have been rightly pointed out by that Lord who knows and sees, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One. What four? That which when seen is spoken of as seen, that which when heard is spoken of as heard, that which when sensed is spoken of as sensed, that which when cognised is spoken of as cognised . 'The Buddha said that the monk might be questioned as to what he knows and sees in respect to these "four modes of statement", so that he can say that he is freed from the "cankers" with no grasping remaining. We read that that monk would be in accordance with dhamma were he to say: "I, your reverences, not feeling attracted to things seen... heard... sensed... cognised, not feeling repelled by them, independent, not infatuated, freed, released, dwell with a mind that is unconfined. So, your reverences, as I know thus, see thus in repect of these four modes of statement, I can say that my mind is freed from the cankers with no grasping (remaining)." 'The Buddha said that the monks should rejoice in that monk's words and approve of them. Then a further question might be asked and this concerns his knowledge of the five khandhas or aggregates, here referred to as the "groups of grasping". We read that that monk would be in accordance with dhamma were he to say: "I, your reverences, having known that material shape (rupa)... feeling... perception(sanna) ... the habitual tendencies (sankharakkhandha, all cetasikas other than feeling and perception) ... consciousness, is of little strength, fading away, comfortless; by the destruction, fading away, stopping, giving up and casting out of grasping after and hankering after material shape... feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies... consciousness which are mental dogmas, biases and tendencies, I comprehend that my mind is freed...." 'We then read that the person who declares himself to be an arahat might be questioned about the six elements of extension (or solidity), cohesion, radiation (temperature, appearing as heat or cold), motion , space and consciousness . Further on we read that the monk who declares himself to be an arahat might be questioned about his understanding of the twelve ayatanas, sense-fields. After that we read that he might be questioned about the tendency to pride. Pride or conceit is eradicated at the attainment of the fourth stage of enlightenment, the stage of the arahat. It cannot be eradicated at the attainment of the first three stages of enlightenment. 'We then read about the monk's life of non-violence and fewness of wishes, and of his observance of purity of sila, his moral conduct in speech and deeds. We read about his "guarding of the six doors" through mindfulness: 'If I saw visible object with the eye I was not entranced by the general appearance, I was not entranced by the detail. If I dwelt with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil unskilled states, might flow in. So I fared along controlling it, I guarded the organ of sight, I achieved control over it... 'The same is said with regard to the other doorways. There is no self who can control the sense-doors, but at the moment of awareness there is no akusala citta on account of the objects presenting themselves. Further on we read about the monk's mindfulness in any situation, no matter what he is doing or what his posture is: walking, standing, sitting or lying down. We read, "I was one who comported myself properly", and this refers to mindfulness and right understanding of realities which appear. We then read about his attainment of the "four meditations", namely the four stages of rupa- jhana, fine-material absorption. Only the person who has accumulations for the attainment of jhana can attain it, but he should not take his attainment for self, he should not cling to jhana. The attainment of jhana is not a necessary condition for the development of vipassana and enlightenment. Further on we read that the monk said: "Thus with the mind composed, quite purified, quite clarified, without blemish, without defilement, grown soft and workable, stable, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. I understood as it really is: This is dukkha... this the arising of dukkha... this the stopping of dukkha... this the course leading to the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the cankers... this is the arising of the cankers... this the stopping of the cankers... this the course leading to the stopping of the cankers. When I knew and saw this thus, my mind was freed from the canker of the sense-pleasures and my mind was freed from the canker of becoming and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge came to be that I was freed and I comprehended: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so. So, your reverences, as I know thus, see thus, in respect of this consciousness-informed body and all external phenomena, I can say that my tendency to pride that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' has been properly extirpated".... 'This sutta reminds us of the conditions which are necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. The objects of which right understanding is to be developed are so near: the five khandhas, the "sense-fields" or ayatanas, the elements, all the objects which impinge time and again on the six doors, but we have accumulated such an amount of ignorance. It is a long road, but even a short moment of awareness and understanding are worth while because then there are conditions for having less ignorance. " ********** Sorry, I had trouble snipping here, but I hope you’ll find the quotes useful for further consideration. Sarah ================ 11520 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Lee Dillion wrote: > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > In your post, you note the following: > > > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to > > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. > > and > > > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > > it takes aeons. > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? Well, in the spirit of "evam me suttam," all I can add is: "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return." So this should make pretty clear, from the words attributed to the Buddha (in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta), how long Satipatthana takes to develop for those whio diligently put the teachings into direct and unremitting daily practice. As volitional beings, we are of course free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, or that satipatthana takes aeons to develop. Which is an idea I can't help but think rings of lack of saddha, or lack of confidence in the Buddha's teachings--to these ears anyway. The alternative to this would to me is to place enough confidence in the teachings of the Buddha on Satipatthana to actually put the four foundations (all four, not one, or a subset of one, or a personal interpretation of a subset of one) into direct practice, without any excuses or eel-wriggling on what the practices and training actually entail, given they're spelled out in sufficient detail to begin a plan of action under the guidance of a kalyanamitrata who's gone that way before (simply consider the case of Angulimala). So, at least according to the most reliable record we have of what the Blessed One taught, if the instructions are practiced rightly, they can indeed serve as the conditions to bring wisdom to fruition very quickly. And this has been historically true for many, not just for a few. The alternative (believing it's too dificult or "out of reach") is too unpleasant to entertain, simply considering the Buddha's observations that all the tears we've cried throughout our countless lifetimes up until now would be benough to fill all the world's oceans, or the bones of the corpses we've left behind are greater in height and girth than Mount Meru, or that the odds of ever finding a precious human birh in which we have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma is so rare that to let this life pass without doing the utmost to break free HERE AND NOW, IN THIS LIFETIME, is just too ugly to contemplate. For me, anyway. 11521 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 - and welcome Lee --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Lee, > > I'll also look forward to Nina's or anyone else's reply to you on the > useful questions you've raised below. Hi Sarah, Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) Erik, (enjoying, without too much lobha, I hope, to a whole lotta somanassa vedana at the moment :) 11522 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:37am Subject: Rahula - the fetter Dear All, Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what eventually became of him? metta, Christine 11523 From: Lee Dillion Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 - and welcome Lee Sarah wrote: > Anyway, this is just an excuse to also welcome you to dsg. I'll look > forward to more of your helpful comments and questions. If you would care > to follow Mike B's good example and share anything else about yourself or > interest in dhamma, we'd be glad to hear. I apologize for the lack of introduction - I thought I was posting to dhamma-list. Oops. Anyway, not much to say at this point, but will share more as the opportunity arises. Thanks for the welcome. -- Lee Dillion 11524 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:38am Subject: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I wonder > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? >++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Rob E. I was impressed with your post to Nina today. Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little explication. The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i 118 (MN 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and vipassanaa". "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 (there's a bit more just before this) Jim: >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find >> that it does not >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both >> samatha and >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a >> better translation than >> 'Practice jhana'. "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. In the PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will find two entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to burn, to be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and vipassanaa" in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that helps to clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -- MA i 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. ----------- When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote best wishes robert 11525 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 5:41am Subject: Self Dhammapada XII Self Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- 157*: If you hold yourself dear then guard, guard yourself well. The wise person would stay awake nursing himself in any of the three watches of the night, the three stages of life. 158: First he'd settle himself in what is correct, only then teach others. He wouldn't stain his name : he is wise. 159: If you'd mold yourself the way you teach others, then, well-trained, go ahead & tame -- for, as they say, what's hard to tame is you yourself. 160: Your own self is your own mainstay, for who else could your mainstay be? With you yourself well-trained you obtain the mainstay hard to obtain. 161: The evil he himself has done -- self-born, self-created -- grinds down the dullard, as a diamond, a precious stone. 162*: When overspread by extreme vice -- like a sal tree by a vine -- you do to yourself what an enemy would wish. 163: They're easy to do -- things of no good & no use to yourself. What's truly useful & good is truly harder than hard to do. 164*: The teaching of those who live the Dhamma, worthy ones, noble: whoever maligns it -- a dullard, inspired by evil view -- bears fruit for his own destruction, like the fruiting of the bamboo. 165*: Evil is done by oneself by oneself is one defiled. Evil is left undone by oneself by oneself is one cleansed. Purity & impurity are one's own doing. No one purifies another. No other purifies one. 166*: Don't sacrifice your own welfare for that of another, no matter how great. Realizing your own true welfare, be intent on just that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/12.html 11526 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 6:21am Subject: Erik's full moon postcard Hi Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) I know..why not throw out the vinaya, the abhidhamma, the commentaries and any discussion lists while we're at it?;-) In fact, why not throw out the Khuddaka-nikaya (inc. Jatakas and Theri-Theragatha) and just read specific Suttas??....or just specific lines such as those which Sariputta listened to?? :) :) > Erik, thanks for the sign- off on this post too;-) > (enjoying, without too much lobha, I hope, to a whole lotta > somanassa vedana at the moment :) Translation for the unenlightened: this is Erik's cyber-postcard from 'a pretty nice location'.... Good luck to enjoying those golden beaches, full moon without blue cheese, palm trees in the breeze, tasty Thai dishes, forever smiling company...all without too much lobha;-)) Seriously, I'm glad it's going well... Thanks for checking in and I hope someone responds to your other post.... hang around for when Dan makes his March appearance and we can all sit back and enjoy any eel-wriggling then;-) Sarah p.s. thought of you and yr family (in Salt Lake City) when the Winter Olympics ended peacefully;-) ========================================= 11527 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:31am Subject: automatic --- Dear Group, Sorry for some more cross-posting. I posted the letter I wrote to Rob. E. to another list and someone replied. Howard gave such a profound reply to this that I thought you'd like to read it. >Dear Robert, I try to condense in some words: > (correct me if I am wrong) >Whatever happens right now > is the result of past << conditions >> >Man has no volition, intention, > free will, initiative at all ! > What appear as volition (cetana) intention, free will, initiative are also already << conditioned >> > by past conditions ! > ______________ In dhamma-list@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, ... No, there IS volition. And it is "free", unless what one means by 'free' is being uncaused. Of course we do act volitionally all the time. But that volition is formed (sankhata) by numerous conditions, among which are our predispositions accumulated over many lifetimes. Our volition expresses our inclinations. In fact that is what makes our volition seem personal, what makes it "our" volition. Would you feel "freer" if volition were random? (Of course, nothing is random, and, also, it is an error to truly think of volition as personal even though it is conditioned by our predispositions, because "our" predispositions are also impersonal.) It's a funny business how we think about willing. On the one hand we want it to be completely free, which really means we don't want it to be the result of conditions, but on the other hand we want it to be "our" volition, for otherwise we feel that we lack free will and are helpless slaves. We want our cake and to eat it as well. But the way things are is as they are. We need to forget about what we would *like* things to be, and, instead, come to see clearly how they actually are. With metta, Howard 11528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study Dear Num, I found it very interesting to hear about your life and Dhamma interest, from your youth, when you in your aunt's house could not help listening to A. Sujin's radio programs. By conditions you came to your aunt's house, the result of kusala kamma. Gradually an interest in Dhamma developed, from moment to moment, by conditions. What consideration, kindness and delicate feeling of your aunt never to intrude or force Dhamma on you. She let it all depend on your interest. How did your interest develop further? Does it have to do with your medical study? And now you help many in your sympathetic and unpretending way. When in Thailand you could ask your aunt for a small card with all the radio stations and times on it of A. Sujin's programs, very convenient. Again, she is unlikely to suggest this herself to you, not wanting to force anything. From early morning on you can just tune in. And very good in the evening, when one is too tired to read. I always like it when in Thailand, so does Jonothan. Speaking of listening, the India tapes are very good, but maybe you can get them from a Web. You could also ask her to send you A. Sujin's book on the paramis, but maybe you have plenty to read. op 25-02-2002 04:18 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > We talked about the definitions of maggarammana, maggahetuka and > maggadhipati. I got stuck there at the 4 indriyas are "should not be said to > have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause > (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati)." The meaning > is very subtle and intricate but I think it is important to test myself of > how much do I really understand what I think I understand. We also talked > about adhipatipaccaya. Nina: Such lists are really difficult. It is helpful to read next to the Vibhanga its commentary, Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani, and here, Ch 5, classification of the faculties (indriyas). But not all is explained. As Jaran said before, we should just study what we can understand. I leave all those lists, sometimes they are useful to check something, so that we do not make mistakes when writing about a subject. Num: > I also told her that I plan to read Jatakas to my nieces and nephews when I > get back home. Nina: that is very kind and thoughtful of you, to take time off doing this. Jatakas are not as easy as they may look, but they are good for understanding the application of kusala in daily life. How old are the children? Like you they may gradually develop more interest, it happens almost unknowingly. Num: Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another one was > about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting > factor? My aunt told me that there will be an archive of lecturer meeting > printed out in Thai for free distribution on this Maghapuja day. She will ask > whether someone can send you a word.doc document to you. Nina: a word doc may not be useful because of my mac computer. But K. Duangduen had said she would send it to me by post, I hope she will do this, because I am very keen about these subjects. Especially ayatanas. With best wishes and appreciation, Nina. 11529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:04am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 1 India Ch 5, no. 1 The True Refuge. We read in the ³Mahå Parinibbåna Sutta² (Dígha Nikåya 16, The Book of the Great Decease, 100-101) 1 that the Buddha spoke to Ånanda about his old age, being in his eightieth year, and that he said that his life was spent: Therefore, Ånanda, be an island to yourself, a refuge to yourself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. And how, Ånanda, is a monk an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge? When he dwells contemplating body in the body... feeling in the feelings, mind in the mind, and mental objects in the mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge. Those monks of mine, Ånanda, who now, or after I am gone, abide as an island to themselves, as a refuge to themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge; it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn. When we were sitting near the Bodhi Tree for a Dhamma discussion, Acharn Sujin said that we are an island to ourselves when we develop understanding ourselves. We listen in order to have more understanding and we consider what we heard. It has to be our own understanding, nobody else can develop it for us. We read in this Sutta about the four Applications of Mindfulness: physical phenomena, feelings, cittas, and dhammas, that is, cetasikas and other realities under different aspects not included in the other three Applications of Mindfulness. Acharn Sujin explained that when we read about these four Applications of Mindfulness, we should not merely think of their names. They should remind us to be aware of the reality that appears now. When someone reads in the section on the Application of Mindfulness of the Body about mindfulness of breath or the cemetery meditations, he may wonder in what way he should apply this. People have different accumulated inclinations: some people have accumulated skill to develop high degrees of calm, whereas others do not have such inclinations. Some people may develop calm with meditation subjects such as the foulness of the body, or mindfulness of breathing, and they may even attain calm to the degree of jhåna, absorption. There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter what one¹s inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears because of conditions is impermanent and non-self. After each section of the Applications of Mindfulness, it has been repeatedly stated that one should contemplate the origination and dissolution of realities. This understanding can only be acquired by the development of insight, right understanding of the reality that appears now. Also the citta that develops mindfulness on breathing as a meditation subject of samatha is impermanent and non-self. We should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness include all the common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant feeling, hearing, tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of satipatthåna. We have ignorance and wrong view of all realities, we see all the pleasant things of life as a true refuge. We do not realize that all conditioned dhammas are susceptible to change and decay. We should listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right friend in Dhamma. In India Acharn Sujin proved again and again to be our right friend in Dhamma. We should consider carefully what we learnt through her and apply it by the development of right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Gradually the characteristics of nåma and rúpa can be understood as they really are and they can be seen as impermanent, dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) and anattå, non-self. In this way we shall realize that Dhamma is our true refuge, that there is no external refuge. 11530 From: michael newton Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:04:16 +0100 >Hello!Nina; I see at the end of this email you wrote that you have a MAC.So do I,I have a MACIBOOK,and I truly love it, I like PC's to but feel better with my Mac,but this isn't why,I'm sending this,and I don't mean to change the subject matter of these inspiring emails.I'm having a small problem.I have 2 email accounts.One is this one,at Hotmail,and the other is my yahoo acoount(which is Garberville83712). What is happening is that I'm getting exactly the same messages from your group on my Yahoo account-that I'm getting on my hotmail account-seem's like this is unnessessary.Can I drop out of your group from Hotmail-while keeping your dhammastudygroup connection on my Yahoo.account?Think,if I could do this-it would make my life a little easier.Don't know,Nina,whether you or Sarah,know anything of this,but since many members,will see this-maybe there is a member of this group,who is knowlegible,that could guide me.Tried to do it on my own,no sucess.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL >Dear Num, I found it very interesting to hear about your life and Dhamma >interest, from your youth, when you in your aunt's house could not help >listening to A. Sujin's radio programs. By conditions you came to your >aunt's house, the result of kusala kamma. Gradually an interest in Dhamma >developed, from moment to moment, by conditions. What consideration, >kindness and delicate feeling of your aunt never to intrude or force Dhamma >on you. She let it all depend on your interest. How did your interest >develop further? Does it have to do with your medical study? And now you >help many in your sympathetic and unpretending way. >When in Thailand you could ask your aunt for a small card with all the >radio >stations and times on it of A. Sujin's programs, very convenient. Again, >she >is unlikely to suggest this herself to you, not wanting to force anything. >From early morning on you can just tune in. And very good in the evening, >when one is too tired to read. I always like it when in Thailand, so does >Jonothan. Speaking of listening, the India tapes are very good, but maybe >you can get them from a Web. You could also ask her to send you A. Sujin's >book on the paramis, but maybe you have plenty to read. > >op 25-02-2002 04:18 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > > > We talked about the definitions of maggarammana, maggahetuka and > > maggadhipati. I got stuck there at the 4 indriyas are "should not be >said to > > have either, path as their objects (maggarammana); path as their cause > > (maggahetuka) or path as their dominating factor (maggadhipati)." The >meaning > > is very subtle and intricate but I think it is important to test myself >of > > how much do I really understand what I think I understand. We also >talked > > about adhipatipaccaya. > >Nina: Such lists are really difficult. It is helpful to read next to the >Vibhanga its commentary, Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani, and here, >Ch 5, classification of the faculties (indriyas). But not all is explained. >As Jaran said before, we should just study what we can understand. I leave >all those lists, sometimes they are useful to check something, so that we >do >not make mistakes when writing about a subject. > >Num: > I also told her that I plan to read Jatakas to my nieces and nephews >when I > > get back home. >Nina: that is very kind and thoughtful of you, to take time off doing this. >Jatakas are not as easy as they may look, but they are good for >understanding the application of kusala in daily life. How old are the >children? Like you they may gradually develop more interest, it happens >almost unknowingly. > >Num: Topic in lecturer meeting this week was about ayatana and the another >one was > > about does entering palasamapatti need jhana-sampatti as a preexisting > > factor? My aunt told me that there will be an archive of lecturer >meeting > > printed out in Thai for free distribution on this Maghapuja day. She >will ask > > whether someone can send you a word.doc document to you. > >Nina: a word doc may not be useful because of my mac computer. But K. >Duangduen had said she would send it to me by post, I hope she will do >this, >because I am very keen about these subjects. Especially ayatanas. >With best wishes and appreciation, Nina. > > > 11531 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Michael - technical problems Dear Michael, It would be better to write off-list to Jon or I with any technical or list problems and if we can't help, we'll forward them to someone more knowledgable. Actually, Nina and I are probably the last people on the list to be able to help with this, but hopefully Kom or Jon or someone else will write to you (off-list). Hope you get it sorted out and good to see your interest in dhamma. Sarah p.s please remember to trim posts and just keep the part you need for your reply. --- michael newton wrote: > >Hello!Nina; > I see at the end of this email you wrote that you have a MAC.So do I,I > have > a MACIBOOK,and I truly love it, > I like PC's to but feel better with my Mac,but this isn't why,I'm > sending > this,and I don't mean to change the > subject matter of these inspiring emails.I'm having a small problem 11532 From: Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re:Gradual vs. abrupt process. Dear Lee, Sarah, Nina and everyone; Sorry for a long post. Not a lot of my own writing. I pretty much cut and pasted from various sources. Let me share what I have noted from sutta. Some have talked about next life and aeon. The last vagga of salayatanavagga, samyuttanikaya, there are series of sutta about will beings reborn or not reborn. King Pasentikosala,Vacchagotta and wanderers asked Khematheri, Ven.Anurudha, Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Mogallana and also the Buddha about this dilemma. This is my rough translation: Being when dies, will be reborn? Being when dies, will not be reborn? Being when dies, will some be reborn, and some not be reborn? Being when dies, not to be said to be reborn and not be said to be not reborn? They said that if people still cling on their eyes, ears, noses, tongues, bodies and minds or still clings on rupa-, vedana-, sanna-, sankara- and vinnakhandha as self, they would keep clinging to that idea. But if one has no avijja or tanha, there will be no clinging to such idea. For each question asked, the Buddha and his disciples answered with the same words, "the Budhha does not answer this question (abyakata)!!! Then Ven.Ananda asked the Buddha why he did not answer Vacchagotta those questions. Anandasutta.Salayatanavagga, samyuttanikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html …"Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" "Ananda, if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" My idea is thinking about how long samsara will be or when we will be attaining nibbana is just a concept. As far as I can get, from Robert's explanation about paticcasamuppada, if there is no more avijja and no more tanha. The cycle is then ended. Come back to gradual vs. abrupt process. Let me put in 3 examples from tipitaka, one is abrupt and other 2 are gradual. 1) Abrupt Vinaya, mahavagga rgd Ven Sariputta entered the stream. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html#saristream …Then Sariputta the wanderer spoke thus to the Ven. Assaji: Speak a little or a lot, but tell me just the gist. The gist is what I want. What use is a lot of rhetoric? Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. …. 2) Gradual process sutta: 2.1)Uposatha. Vinaya, cullavagga. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-05.html#gradual "The eight amazing and astounding facts about the ocean" …"[1] The ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch. The fact that the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch: This is the first amazing and astounding fact about the ocean that, as they see it again and again, has the Asuras greatly pleased with the ocean. …….(2….-8) then the Buddha explained: "[1] Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch. The fact that this Doctrine and Discipline has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch: This is the first amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline that, as they see it again and again, has the monks greatly pleased with the Doctrine and Discipline. …. 2.2) Navasutta. Khandhavaravagga, samyuttanikaya. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html …"Just as when a carpenter or carpenter's apprentice sees the marks of his fingers or thumb on the handle of his adze but does not know, 'Today my adze handle wore down this much, or yesterday it wore down that much, or the day before yesterday it wore down this much,' still he knows it is worn through when it is worn through. In the same way, when a monk dwells devoting himself to development, he does not know, 'Today my effluents wore down this much, or yesterday they wore down that much, or the day before yesterday they wore down this much,' still he knows they are worn through when they are worn through. …. And last, my interest in Buddhism has been building up very slowly. Nina, I usually liked to listen to A.Sujin program in the morning when I was driving to my school (college). You know, the traffic in Bangkok during rush hour is painful. I thought it's better to do something useful than to fuss about the traffic all the way to the hospital. Mainly, I keep reading and listening to dhamma b/c I see some benefit from it. Just understanding what is kusala and what is not is a big and significant step for me, I am still working on it ;). Sarah, for me one post a day is probably my capability. Num 11533 From: mikebrotherto Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Mike B, > > Many thanks for all your fascinating background details. we look forward > to any sharing from all your experiences and study. You raise a lot of > interesting points, but I'll just skip to the end for now if you don't > mind: > > --- mikebrotherto wrote: > > > > > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of mindful > > presence. Although, I must admit, with utmost respect to all, that I > > wonder when some of you find the time to actually be still and let it > > be. Like my mama used to say 'you keep picking at that scab it's never > > going to heal'. > > This is quite amusing and I'm not sure how (on my behalf, let alone anyone > else's;-)) to answer the question. Perhaps I should ask what it means to > 'be still' and 'let it be' first..... Can we determine the 'being still' > by the 'activity', I question? Dear Sarah, Thank you for responding so kindly. I can only speak for myself here but I imagine there are many who mindfully read Dhammastudygroup's posts but do not participate. For me, it is a bit intimidating because of the scholarly detail of most posts - the dissection of Pali, etc. It's hard to participate because the jist of the discussions are so cognitive and foreign to me at this time. In my first post, I was insinuating that the "top ten or so" posters of Dhammastudygroup must spend a lot of their day, well, posting. That, of course, is presumptuous on my part and apologize if there was any offense. My sense is that there are a number of you who are academics and do this for a livelihood. What a wonderful place to work with colleagues! Although I obtained a degree in Philopsophy of Religion many years ago, I have always 'hung around' those who practice "awareness" more than those who study the different connotations of a particular word. Nina's last post India Ch 4, no. 4, is probably the most appropriate response to my current point of view. ...Acharn Sujin"...However, we should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rupa are, so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it is wrong." That pretty much sums up it up. I infer that if one only remains aware, one will not be able to recognize dhamma when it arises, because one doesn't know what one should be aware of. My point was that it seems like there is a tremendous amount of "study" clock-time on the site. When does one have time to sit and just be aware if one is studying all the time? I am sure that is not the case, though. I find the cultural differences of approaching Buddhism quite intriguing. Many of us in the U.S. who are "lay" usually get some watered down outline of the teachings and then are instructed in how to sit and meditate. The teachers that I know are concerned that no one will participate if the cognitive part of understanding is pressed to the level found in dhammastudygroup. Personally, I love it and study diligently. Most of my dhamma friends do not. Anyway, if there ever is an opportunity for me to participate meaningfully, I shall. With Metta, Mike B 11534 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:56pm Subject: To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Mrs. Abbott, I've asked Mum to send this to you. Thank-you very much for your beautiful letter, it isn't too long, it is just right. I printed your letter to keep and read again. Sometimes I wish Hamish and Ashley are in Heaven, and we will all be together again one day. But mostly I wish it was a month ago and I was still laughing, and hugging Hamish my friend. And I could send him a text message on his mobile and he would always reply. And it would be good to know that Ashley will tease me as usual at the next party. but they won't ever be at the next party, and we' will never laugh together or hug each other again. I never felt angry that they were ' taken '. I only felt disappointment that these wonderful people who I felt had so much more ahead of them had an early end to this life. However at the same time, I was so happy that they had always taken every opportunity to see people and enjoy everything they encountered, and when they passed on, I took this lesson of life from them. Most people, especially my other close friends kept asking why and if only......I did for awhile but then I realised it was going to happen no matter how the circumstances were different. I don't think saying someone is a buddhist or a christian has any point. a good person or a bad person can be any religion or nationality. I'm not sure what I believe. It would be good to know for certain that God has a plan. and that there is a point to everything. People say 'God needed Hamish and Ashley more than we do' and 'only the good die young' and 'they had learned all the lessons they came to learn,' sometimes I wonder if we have got things wrong about heaven and hell, sometimes I think this is hell. It is hell for Lachlan, Hamishs' cousin and flatmate, he was driving. The main thing that I found awful was even those that were close to Lachlan were blaming him for the accident although he was not at fault. All I could think of was that that poor boy had lost his best friend, cousin and girlfriend. It is hell for Michael (who gave the eulogy) they are his two best friends who he saw every day. and it is hell for the parents. I hope that the crash happened too quickly for some of them to feel pain like you say. maybe Ashley and Jodie, but Hamish took three hours to die and I didn't even feel that it was happening to him. There is no use in feeling sorry for myself. I am not the one hurting the most. Like my Nana says "what can't be cured, must be endured. I would really like to meet you, and Mr. Abbott too, in May, if my brother Luke and I come to Hong Kong to see Dad. We think it is definite, but things always change, so I'll let you know when it comes closer. Thank you for the nice things you have said about me and Mum. I tell her she is my best friend. I felt that the best thing I could do and that could assist me in my mourning process was to help everyone around me, and for me Mum going to Bangkok and for her to come back and tell me how much she enjoyed herself and what she learned and talked about, was a great assistance in changing my mood for that week. If she had not gone I think I would of continued to feel depressed, feeling that I had somehow held her back. We are both strong people and I knew I could spare her for a few days. :) Not a usual word - Loving-kindness. It is the feeling which came out of your letter. I can see why my Mum likes you so much. Yours sincerely, Sarah Forsyth 11535 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:59pm Subject: Sarah F. to Mrs van Gorkom, Mr Epstein, and Dr. Num Dear Mrs. van Gorkom, Mr. Epstein and Dr. Num, Mum forwarded all your letters to me to read and I wanted to reply and say that I think it is lovely that people who don't even know me, and who live so far away, have sent me their good wishes. it's very nice. Mrs. van Gorkom, when you say "make your loss into a learning experience' you sound just like my Mum. When I was a little one, she used to say 'and what have you learned from this Sarah?', usually after I'd been in trouble! She only calls me Sarah when I'm in trouble. What I've learned now is that you should love people and be gentle and not judge them, because anything can happen to anyone, anytime. As my Mum says 'Don't let the sun go down on an argument' and I think that means the same thing. Mr. Epstein, your story of the lady who lost her whole family one after the other, is a bit like Ashleys' father - a couple of days before Ashley was killed, his Dad flew from Sydney to Brisbane to visit him; after going back, the Police had to call on him and tell him what had happened. Ashleys' Mum was killed eight years ago in an identical car accident (someone running a red light), and his Dad brought up Ashley and his sister alone. Once there were four in the family, now it's down to two. Life sucks. People say it was good they were together in the last couple of days. But I say, he is still just as dead. Dr. Num, Mum says she has already passed on my thanks to you for thinking of me. It was kind of you. Yours sincerely, Sarah Forsyth 11536 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: Erik's full moon postcard --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > --- rikpa21 wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) > > I know..why not throw out the vinaya, the abhidhamma, the commentaries and > any discussion lists while we're at it?;-) That was not the point at all Sarah, and I think you know that :) Because I have a bias toward the Sutta and Vinayana Pitakas as the most authoritative sources of the Blessed One's instructions, for my own edification I seek out FIRST the words of the Suttas, and if I need any commentarial gloss, seek further cl;arification from these secondary sources. The point is, and I think we can most of us agree, that the Suttas represent the heart-essence of the Buddha's instrutions, some pithy and difficult to interpret as they are. Nevertheless, when his teachings are plainly spoken, spoken in a way that leaves little room for further interpretation, such as the time necessary for the cultivation of sati and jhana to the point of awakening, then I feel it best to accept these as definitive, and see no need for recourse to additional layers of hermeneutical gloss. > In fact, why not throw out the > Khuddaka-nikaya (inc. Jatakas and Theri-Theragatha) and just read specific > Suttas?? This has worked for many historically, so, indeed, why not allow the the Dhamma and Vinaya (and to the best of my recollection comenatrial literature never made its appearance until the second council--and that includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, no matter its fabled origins a la so many Mahayan Sutras) to serve as the guide? Unless of course we find it helpful to consider tales like the jatakas (I do) for their instructive (in the allegorical if not literal) sense, much as Aesop's fables; or secondary sources like the Abhidhamma and its commentaries and sub-commentaries to help on points of difficulty. But in my opnion, if these are seen as anything moer than potentially helpful adjuncts to the reputedly spoken utterances of the Blessed One, then I believe there is a danger in reading too much into the commentary while eschewing the mostly simple and direct teachings of the Buddha. I would never wish to see the commentaries done away with, merely that they are placed in the appropriate context, as a way to clarify and serve as aids to those point which need further interpretation, and not as replacements for those points which stand planly by themselves. As the Buddha advised in the Neyyattha Sutta: "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." The Buddha makes the explicit statement (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) on the appropriate development of the Four Frames of Reference: "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." Hermeneutically speaking, this is jes' folks, plain talk. Though you are free of course to disagree, I see nothing in these words that indicates they demans further interpretation. I believe he meant exactly what he said on this point, and that any commentarial gloss on this points adds nothing if it is interpreted in a way they leads to discouragement, to laziness, to the wrong view that liberation in this lifetime is out of reach. To me any interpretation that does not lend itself to aroused persistence, to dispassion not to entanglement, to shedding, not to accumulating, to relinquishment, letting go, and above all the confidence in the sage advice I find in the well-spoken words the Buddha, I do not accept as Dhamma, Vinaya, or the Teacher's instruction. (cf. the Gotami Sutta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html ....or just specific lines such as those which Sariputta listened > to?? :) :) > > > Erik, > > thanks for the sign- off on this post too;-) > > > (enjoying, without too much lobha, I hope, to a whole lotta > > somanassa vedana at the moment :) > > Translation for the unenlightened: this is Erik's cyber-postcard from 'a > pretty nice location'.... Good luck to enjoying those golden beaches, full > moon without blue cheese, palm trees in the breeze, tasty Thai dishes, > forever smiling company...all without too much lobha;-)) Heh heh heh. Especially after last night's Full Moon Party on Ko Pha Ngan (never thought I'd actually go to rave with all its attendant Bacchanalian madness, but did, and found it quite the once-is-enough- for-this-lifetime experience, so pardon my recent howling. :) Talk about lunacy. In the very most literal sense of the word! :) > Thanks for checking in and I hope someone responds to your other post.... > hang around for when Dan makes his March appearance and we can all sit > back and enjoy any eel-wriggling then;-) The spoon is in the pot Sarah, no worries! And I hope you like hot chilis in your soup! :) > p.s. thought of you and yr family (in Salt Lake City) when the Winter > Olympics ended peacefully;-) Oh yeah, the Olympics. I pretty much forgot about that. The only salient things that sticks in my mind about it is that the US army delpoyed more troops to my parents' hometown than were present for the so-called "Afghan invasion." I truly worry for the future of that land and especially its people. 11537 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what > eventually became of him? > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental permission. Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the Theragatha. I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay on a bed". Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. Sarah ============================ 11538 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47am Subject: Re: India Ch 5, no. 1 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, > calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter what one¹s > inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears because > of conditions is impermanent and non-self. Hello Nina, I just to add that I find some points of question on this when you say there is no need to develop samatha "to a high degree." To my understanding, samatha exists as a means to pacify the hindrances, and is a necessary prerequisite for liberative insight, individual accumulations notwithstanding. So long as the mind is overly distracted by factors like kukucca, kamachanda, vyapada, etc., the type of highly developed insight associated with the lokuttara panna lacks the appropriate conditions to arise. If the mind is beset by sensuous desire, by ill-will, by skeptical doubt and worry, sloth and torpor, by restlessness and excitement, it is impossible to cultivate any meaningful degree of equanimity-- upekkha--one of the seven enlightenment factors. Likewise, when the mind is beset by these hindrances dhamma-vicaya is extremely difficult as the mind is preoccupied with unskillful thoughts and elaborations (ayoniso manasikara). How can we truly investigate the characteristics of dhammas as they are, if the mind is worrying about the credit card balance, yesterdaty's argument with the boss, tomorrow's vacation plans? Or if the mind is unstable and scattered to the ten directions due to resetlessness and excitement or sunk into the pit of laziness? Or perhaps most debilitating of all, caught in the belief that awakening is impossible, not in this lifetime, something for others, not for these khandas, which could easily be the enemy of moha masqeurading as false humility? According to my understanding and reading of the Suttas, the Buddha spoke plainly in the Satipatthana Sutta that the "monk trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrications, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrications." Samatha, in other words. And this as a prelimuinary exercise the leads the mind to tranquility and pleasant abiding here and now, engendering piti, one of the seven enlightenment factors. This is part and parcel with the development of jhana to the degree liberative insight has the conditions for arising (samadhi is after all another of the bojjhangas), as well as viriya, and so on. The six pairs (yuggalas) also factor heavily into this, as these engender the lightness and pliancy of mind neeeded to remain focused appropriately on the body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in & of themselves, without bias, detached, leading to equanimity as regards formations and ultimately to change-of-lineage and the insight that cuts the knot of grasping at the root, if only for a short while at first, and finally at the moment or arahata-magga-nana. According the the Buddha's instructions in many Suttas, including the Parinibbana Sutta, it is the seven factors of enlightenment, when brought to culmination, that lead to clear knowing and release here and now. Only when these factors are present are the approriate conditions present for the wisdom to arise that permanently severs the fetters binding us to the wheel of samsaric existence. > We > should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness include all the > common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant feeling, hearing, > tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of satipatthåna. Indeed, and we should likewise not avoid the training needed for true sati to remain steadfast throughout our daily activities of standing, sitting, walking, and lying. But the type of sati that remains steadfast and mindful, clearly comprehending, is, for all but the rarest spiritual savant, a product of consistent and diligent training, typically under the guidance of accomplished kalyanamitratas (those who we have confidence enough in to believe their understanding of the Dhamma is the product of direct knowledge and not theory). In other words, while I completely agree that we can (and eventually must) take any object as an object of sati, even (and especially) concepts, true sati (I am unsure of what is meant by "Satipatthana" here in DSG apart from its meaning "foundation of mindfulness", and I prefer to use the word samma sati when speaking of Right Mindfulness) is developed over time and with concerted, consistent application of the trainings laid out by the Buddha in all spheres of activity, beginning with the body, and when the mind is appropriately trained in this foundation to move on to vedana, then citta, then dhammas (which also embody conceptual categories such as the Four Noble Truths and so on and its attendant meditations on the origins and cessations of sufferings as they arise through the six doorways, as well as the path, including the indispensible factor of Right Concentration, that leads to the permanent cessation of suffering). 11539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] the long process of development op 26-02-2002 23:22 schreef Lee Dillion op leedillion@c...: > >> The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to >> be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna.> > and >> the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that >> it takes aeons. > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? Nina: Dear Lee, here is one sutta I quoted from A. Sujin's Dhamma in Cambodia: As has been explained by the Buddha, the knife handle will wear out as someone holds it, but he does not know how much has been worn away each day. Evenso a person does not know how much of the defilements has been worn away each day. In the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhå-vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch 5, §101, Adze-handle) the Buddha explained that the åsavas (defilements) can only be destroyed if one realizes the true nature of the five khandhas, their arising and falling away. But this cannot be achieved if one merely wishes for the eradication but is neglectful in the development of the factors of enlightenment. If one is attentive to the development of these factors the åsavas will wear away. We read that the Buddha said 3 : Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter¹s apprentice looks upon his adze-handle and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger-marks he does not thereby know: ³Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times.² But he knows the wearing away of it just by its wearing away. Evenso, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training has not this knowledge: ²Thus and thus much of the åsavas has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, and thus much at other times.² But he knows the wearing away of them just by their wearing away.... Try to hold a knife handle, it takes long for it to wear away. The handle may be made from metal, not wood. And also, we may find out whether there is already during our life now some wearing away of ignorance of seeing or of hearing now, of clinging to the concept of self, of stinginess, envy, conceit, etc. Is there still self who sees or is seeing just dhamma, not self but the seeing that sees? And I do not mean understanding of this on the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, but on the level of patipatti, direct understanding without naming, without using words. That makes us think of how long the development of understanding is going to take. Then in the Therigatha (P.T.S.) we read in Canto XII (and something similar is repeated time and again for the different Theris) : "She too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in this and that rebirth, was, when Vipassi was Buddha, reborn in a clansman"s family. Come to years of discretion, because of the promise that was in her, she waxed anxious at the prospect of rebirth. And, going to the Bhikkhunís, heard the Dhamma, believed, and entered the Order. Perfect in virtue, and learning the Three Pitakas, she became very learned in the Dhamma and a teacher of it. The same destiny befell her under the five succeeding Buddhas-Sikkhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, and Kassapa. But because of her tendency to pride she was unable to root out the defilements. So it came to pass, through the kamma of her pride, that, in this Buddha era, she was reborn at Savatthi, in the household of Anathapindika, the Treasurer, of a domestic slave. She became a sotapanna after hearing the Discourse of the Lion's Roar.... We read that she later on attained arahatship. See, she was even a Dhamma teacher, and that also during the time of five succeeding Buddhas. All over the scriptures we find stories about former lives of disciples, and we read that it took aeons before the goal was reached. During the time of the Buddha there were more people who could attain enlightenment quickly even when hearing a few words, or after some more explanation, and at this time this does not happen anymore. No need for discouragement, we can still hear the teachings and develop understanding. But there is clinging to self if we think of my progress, or if we wonder: how much progress did I make. Eric does not like the idea of development during a long time. He mentioned the tortoise and yoke with one hole ( M.III, no 129, and K.S. V, 457). However, this is a different subject: the Buddha exhorted people not to waste time being neglectful. Satipatthana may not arise often, but we can go on considering and studying the teachings, applying what we learnt in daily life, and developing dana, sila and bhavana. In India A. Sujin asked Kom to speak about this sutta, in order to remind us all about this. When we have confidence in the teachings there is no need to be afraid of an unhappy rebirth. As to Eric's quote of the Satipatthana sutta, we have to keep in mind to whom it was spoken. As I said, at that time there were still people who could attain enlightenment quickly. When we consider the amount of ignorance and wrong view we still have, there is no reason to be over optimistic. But, on the other hand, no reason either to be discouraged. We should just be grateful to have the possibility to listen and to develop understanding. And this is also what Rob Ep wrote to me, I quote: end quote. This is realistic. This is how it is. Best wishes from Nina. 11540 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana op 27-02-2002 05:46 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I > wonder > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > Nina: Dear Rob Ep, thank you for your well formulated answer to me. You mention very good points. I join Robert K. in his answer about the different meanings of jhana. Here is also a text about jhaana: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi Contemplate. Contemplate the thirtyeight > objects (of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. contemplate the characteristics beginning with impermanence (dukkha, anatta) of the khandhas, the ayatanas, etc. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha. Develop samatha and vipassana, it was said. Do not be forgetful. > Thus, there are two kinds of upanijjhana, contemplation (or meditation): in samatha, attained with the 38 meditation subjects, and also in vipassana with regard to the three characteristics, that are penetrated only by vipassana. There are more distinctions as to jhana, mundane and supramundane, as Jon has written in excellent posts. I kept part of them and quote now: Jon CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 [Jon's notes:] 5. There are 4 important differences between jhana citta and the path citta – 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana. 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta eradicates kilesa. 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death. 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths. --------------------------------------- > CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31 > > "All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics of > impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they differ among > themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they reach the > path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit > which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching > the path... > > "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so > considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they > possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their > counterparts in the mundane jhanas." [4] > [ends] > =================================== > > Jon's notes: > 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics of > reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of the > path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta). > 2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus development of > concentration to the level of mundane jhana. > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration accompanying > the moment of path citta *`corresponds to'* the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to `correspond to' > jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with same full > absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. End quote from Jon's post. Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. XII, 8: It is important to take note of this warning. Best wishes, from Nina. 11541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:03am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 2 India Ch 5, no 2 We should know what can be the object of sati and paññå when satipatthåna is developed: one reality at a time as it appears through one of the sense-doors or the mind-door. When we taste a flavour we usually are forgetful of realities and we think of the concept of the flavour, such as an apple or a sweet. When we have studied the Dhamma there may be conditions for the arising of sati that is non-forgetful of the reality that appears. It can be mindful of the flavour and then understanding can develop of its true nature so that it can be realized as a rúpa appearing through the tongue. Flavour has a characteristic that can be known directly, without the need to think about it or to name it flavour. We can change the name flavour, but its characteristic is unalterable. Thus, characteristics of realities can be directly understood when they appear one at a time, without the need to think about them. Satipatthåna is at first very slight, we hardly know what it is. But when it arises more often we know. It is followed by thinking, but we can realize that it is thinking. Acharn Sujin said: ²The theory of satipatthåna is not too difficult, but there may not be enough conditions for the arising of right awareness. One is not used to the characteristic of awareness. If there can be thinking of nåma and rúpa, why can¹t there be awareness of them? Right now there is the test of one¹s understanding of seeing, hearing or thinking. While one is listening all realities arise and fall away because of the appropriate conditions... Paññå can know at which moment there is satipaììhåna and at which moment there is not. Sati of satipatthåna arises and falls away very rapidly and one thinks about satipatthåna and the object of satipatthåna. Later on the difference between such moments can be known. Paññå should be keen enough to see the difference. The eightfold Path is difficult because it has to be developed with detachment. Having the intention or the wish to develop it is not the Path; if one wishes to know a reality even if that reality seems to be clear, it is wrong, and paññå should be very keen to realize this. The Path cannot be developed by the intention to know realities. The wrong practice can only be eradicated by the path-consciousness (magga-citta) of the sotåpanna, the person who attains the first stage of enlightenment.² Satipatthåna is not concentration or trying to focus on a specific reality. There are so many pittfalls by which we mistake for satipatthåna what is not satipatthåna. For example, we experience for a moment just sound, no other reality and then we believe that this is satipatthåna. However, akusala citta with attachment can also experience the paramattha dhamma that is sound. Acharn Sujin spoke about hardness that can be experienced by different types of citta. She said that we all notice when something hard impinges on the bodysense, that also a child can notice this. Body-consciousness experiences hardness, it is vipåkacitta, result of kamma, and this citta is not accompanied by awareness. After vipåkacitta has fallen away, akusala cittas may arise. One may fix one¹s attention on a paramattha dhamma such as hardness with lobha, but that is not satipatthåna. Or there may be a moment of sati and then quickly after that there is again lobha trying to hold on to the object. Cittas arise and pass away so fast. Paññå must be very keen to discern all those different moments. We are likely to have many misconceptions of what sati is. We forget that sati falls away in splitseconds, just like all other conditioned realities. Do we believe that sati does not fall away and, while it is lasting, that it can be aware now of this reality and then of that reality? We may have intellectual understanding of the fact that sati falls away immediately, but, unknowingly, we may still tend to hold on to sati as if it could last. We take sati for self and that is a hindrance to its arising. 11542 From: Lee Dillion Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] the long process of development Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Nina: Thank you for your thoughtful response. My comments are below in context. > >> The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to > >> be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna.> > > and > >> the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > >> it takes aeons. > > > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of satipatthana takes, > > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, but I am > > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual process comes > > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this idea come > > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? > > Nina: Dear Lee, here is one sutta I quoted from A. Sujin's Dhamma in > Cambodia: > > As has been explained by the Buddha, the knife handle will wear out as > someone holds it, but he does not know how much has been worn away each day. > Evenso a person does not know how much of the defilements has been worn away > each day. In the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhå-vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch 5, > §101, Adze-handle) the Buddha explained that the åsavas (defilements) can > only be destroyed if one realizes the true nature of the five khandhas, > their arising and falling away. But this cannot be achieved if one merely > wishes for the eradication but is neglectful in the development of the > factors of enlightenment. If one is attentive to the development of these > factors the åsavas will wear away. This makes sense from my own experience. > We read that the Buddha said 3 : > Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter¹s apprentice looks upon his > adze-handle and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger-marks he does not > thereby know: ³Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away > today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times.² But he knows the > wearing away of it just by its wearing away. > Evenso, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training has not this > knowledge: ²Thus and thus much of the åsavas has been worn away today, thus > much yesterday, and thus much at other times.² But he knows the wearing away > of them just by their wearing away.... Again, this is sensible and consistent with my own experience. > Try to hold a knife handle, it takes long for it to wear away. The handle > may be made from metal, not wood. And also, we may find out whether there is > already during our life now some wearing away of ignorance of seeing or of > hearing now, of clinging to the concept of self, of stinginess, envy, > conceit, etc. Is there still self who sees or is seeing just dhamma, not > self but the seeing that sees? And I do not mean understanding of this on > the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, but on the level of > patipatti, direct understanding without naming, without using words. That > makes us think of how long the development of understanding is going to > take. Focusing on the length of time to wear away the adze is not what I took away from this sutta, though I agree it is one of the possible lessons. Instead of the length of time, I came away with the idea that we should not try to determine "Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times." Instead, we should abandon the process of mere wishing and be confident that by focusing on the development of "The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path" that our "fetters easily wither & rot away." It is a sutta that assures us that there is an end to the effluents and that we should get to our practice. The full sutta is at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > Then in the Therigatha (P.T.S.) we read in Canto XII (and something similar > is repeated time and again for the different Theris) : "She too, having made > her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring > efficacy in this and that rebirth, was, when Vipassi was Buddha, reborn in a > clansman"s family. Come to years of discretion, because of the promise that > was in her, she waxed anxious at the prospect of rebirth. And, going to the > Bhikkhunís, heard the Dhamma, believed, and entered the Order. Perfect in > virtue, and learning the Three Pitakas, she became very learned in the > Dhamma and a teacher of it. The same destiny befell her under the five > succeeding Buddhas-Sikkhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, and Kassapa. > But because of her tendency to pride she was unable to root out the > defilements. So it came to pass, through the kamma of her pride, that, in > this Buddha era, she was reborn at Savatthi, in the household of > Anathapindika, the Treasurer, of a domestic slave. She became a sotapanna > after hearing the Discourse of the Lion's Roar.... > > We read that she later on attained arahatship. See, she was even a Dhamma > teacher, and that also during the time of five succeeding Buddhas. All over > the scriptures we find stories about former lives of disciples, and we read > that it took aeons before the goal was reached. We also read of people who spent eons and eons of acting in unskillful ways but in an instant were awakened. So I am not sure that the point is that it takes eons of practice, but rather that we will remain in eons of rebirths until we open up to the teachings of the dhamma. > During the time of the Buddha there were more people who could attain > enlightenment quickly even when hearing a few words, or after some more > explanation, and at this time this does not happen anymore. This is one of those statements that I am also curious about. I have never found such a claim in the suttas and the logic of it never has been apparent to me. In any event, I suppose the issue isn't overly important since, as the sutta we commented on above notes, if we devote ourselves to development our fetters will rot away. That I make progress is more important than speculating about the time for awakening. > No need for > discouragement, we can still hear the teachings and develop understanding. > But there is clinging to self if we think of my progress, or if we wonder: > how much progress did I make. I agree fully. > Eric does not like the idea of development during a long time. He mentioned > the tortoise and yoke with one hole ( M.III, no 129, and K.S. V, 457). > However, this is a different subject: the Buddha exhorted people not to > waste time being neglectful. Satipatthana may not arise often, but we can go > on considering and studying the teachings, applying what we learnt in daily > life, and developing dana, sila and bhavana. In India A. Sujin asked Kom to > speak about this sutta, in order to remind us all about this. When we have > confidence in the teachings there is no need to be afraid of an unhappy > rebirth. As to Eric's quote of the Satipatthana sutta, we have to keep in > mind to whom it was spoken. As I said, at that time there were still people > who could attain enlightenment quickly. Quickly, slowly, I don't know. To my simple way of seeing things, if the issue was that important, then the Buddha would have spoken clearly to the issue. For me personally, I see a repeated focus on two more important points. First, that I should not be overly concerned about the amount of progress I make at any one point in time and focus instead on the fact that any practice is a step in the right direction. Second, that I can either waste my time by wishing and hoping while my house burns down or I can get to doing something about my situation. This life or next or in a thousand lifetimes seems like useless speculation. > When we consider the amount of > ignorance and wrong view we still have, there is no reason to be over > optimistic. But, on the other hand, no reason either to be discouraged. We > should just be grateful to have the possibility to listen and to develop > understanding. I agree. > Best wishes from Nina. Thank you. You too. -- Lee Dillion 11543 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm back! Dear all I'm back home now and slowly starting to catch up with past messages. Lots to read, will take me some time, the "other" list was very active : ) If I owe any of you a reply, please bear with me. I'm working my way backwards and eventually will get there...or not! Much to read...much to read.... Best wishes Lucy. 11544 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Sarah F and Christine I just read about your terrible ordeal, I'm so sorry for the tragedy that you both had to experience. Also impressed on how strong and wise you both are in the face of it all, thanks for sharing, it's a powerful teaching. As I have "M" leanings, I hope you don't mind if a candle is lit and some incense burnt on my home shrine for your departed friends. With much sympathy Lucy 11545 From: Lucy Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Hello Mike B Welcome! I'm so glad you joined - being also a relatively new-to-the-list-er myself. > I must say that the posts of this group keep me in a state of > mindful presence Well put. That's how I feel too... but stay on, there's a lot that can be applied here & now, you'll see. Don't let the scholarly detail deter you, just pick what is clear for you now and test it - at least that's how I cope. You can always go back to read the rest in the archives later. And don't be shy about asking questions - it also benefits many of us (the non-scholarly majority) to read answers to newcomers' questions. >. Many of us in the U.S. who are "lay" usually get some > watered down outline of the teachings and then are instructed in how > to sit and meditate. Not only in the US! That's my experience too (in the UK) - isn't cyberworld wonderful? Best wishes Lucy (working her way backwards through a few hundreds of messages) 11546 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah and all, Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, and I have never been like that before. And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no grief -- so how fear?] I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and isn't....... And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what > > eventually became of him? > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the > Theragatha. > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay > on a bed". > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. > > Sarah > ============================ > > > > 11547 From: tikmok Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah, Adding possibly more inaccurate accounts ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:43 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. I thought Buddha's father protested not because of Rahula but because of Buddha's half brother (???), Nanda, whom Buddha also pressed to become a Bikkhu. All three (Buddha, Rahula, and Nanda) are said to be fully adorned (and quite beautiful) with 32 Mahapurisa lakhana for if they hadn't become Bikhhus, each would have become a king of all kings. Rahula was known to: 1) be attached to his beautiful characteristics: there is a sutta (with explanation in the commentary) the Buddha encouraged him to see that form is impermanent. 2) develop anapana-sati 3) reached arahatship after he was ordained a Bikkhu, more than 13 years after he became a novice 4) have developed parami for over 100,000 kappas, just as Buddha's parents (to become his son, and his parents). 5) Taught by the Buddha when he was a novice to refrain from lying even when it is for entertainment (joking, teasing, etc.) kom --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the > Theragatha. > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay > on a bed". > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. > 11548 From: wangchuk37 Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:47pm Subject: March update to the Buddhist bibliography the March update to the Buddhist bibliography is now online at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddbib.html enjoy your reading ! Roger 11549 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:16pm Subject: RE: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Hi Kom, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > That is a great sutta. And it also supports my point. Notice how stages of enlightenment are described qualitatively, not shrink wrapped into perfectly delineated independent factors of aggregates that confirm stages. > Even if we don't > understand why > the categorization, I think we should be study the > texts > carefully before making a decision that one > shouldn't be in > the same group as the other. No need for anyone to get upset. I'm not proposing we revise the tipitaka and make it the 3 vipallasas. All I'm saying is the 4th vipallasa is a derivative of the other 3, and doesn't really seem to belong in the group. For example, in the list: 1) coconut 2) soy bean 3) cilantro 4) coconut curried tofu and rice Which item seems out of place? If the commentators had come up with a list of second order vipallasas, separate from the primary 3, then that would make more sense to me. -fk 11550 From: Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, I'm back! Welcome back, Lucy! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/28/02 3:15:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, selene@c... writes: > Dear all > > I'm back home now and slowly starting to catch up with past messages. Lots > to read, will take me some time, the "other" list was very active : ) > > If I owe any of you a reply, please bear with me. I'm working my way > backwards and eventually will get there...or not! > > Much to read...much to read.... > > Best wishes > Lucy. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11551 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:35pm Subject: Partial credit? Re: The Foul and the Beautful Hi Sarah, Just want to clarify that I do find immense value in the vipallasa of "seeing the foul as beautiful".It's something I could use a lot of work on. I'm really quite adept at seeing "the foul in the foul". Do I get half credit for that? In fact, in this world, with it's maras, brahmas, humans, I see no being whose skill at seeing the negative aspects of every situation surpasses mine. I can find fault with anyone, any situation, anything. This is one of two superpowers that I have. The other superpower involves being able to eat tremendous amounts of food and clog up any toilet, or at the very least requiring a double flush. Unfortunately, these two super powers do not lead to the proper elimination of dukkha I'm looking for. I would gladly trade them for the superpower of knowledge of destruction of the taints. Apologies for my obnoxious insights. I find that near full moon days I tend to be even more obnoxious than usual. No wonder the term, lunatics. -fk p.s. I love this passage from Vsm you quoted: > the Vism (ch > X1) section on > ‘Perception of Repulsiveness in Nutriment’23, > knowing that you’ll > appreciate the earthy reminders;-): > > “..Hence the Ancients said: > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > Go in all by a single door, > But by nine doors come oozing out. > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > Men like to eat in company, > But to excrete in secrecy. > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > These a man eats with high delight, > And then excretes with dumb disgust. > > ‘The food and drink so greatly prized- > The crisp to chew, the soft to suck- > A single night will be enough > To bring them to putridity’. 11552 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Lucy, Thanks for your kind thoughts, words and actions. All very welcome and appreciated. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Sarah F and Christine > > I just read about your terrible ordeal, I'm so sorry for the tragedy that > you both had to experience. Also impressed on how strong and wise you both > are in the face of it all, thanks for sharing, it's a powerful teaching. As > I have "M" leanings, I hope you don't mind if a candle is lit and some > incense burnt on my home shrine for your departed friends. > > With much sympathy > > Lucy 11553 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Dear Mike B, --- mikebrotherto wrote:> Dear Sarah, > Thank you for responding so kindly. I can only speak for myself here > but I imagine there are many who mindfully read Dhammastudygroup's > posts but do not participate. I’m quite sure this is right (and know of a few of them). I’m also quite sure that many will be sharing your same impressions and appreciating your comments below: >For me, it is a bit intimidating > because > of the scholarly detail of most posts - the dissection of Pali, etc. > It's hard to participate because the jist of the discussions are so > cognitive and foreign to me at this time. Understood and I think Lucy made some very helpful comments in this respect.... it’s probably better to just go slowly and not try to follow every thread in the beginning. >In my first post, I was > insinuating that the "top ten or so" posters of Dhammastudygroup must > spend a lot of their day, well, posting. That, of course, is > presumptuous on my part and apologize if there was any offense. I don’t think this is presumptuous or offensive at all. I think it’s right that for some (like myself), dsg has become an integral part of daily life and a wonderful opportunity to consider the dhamma more with friends (old and new) with respect and consideration for different viewpoints. >My > sense is that there are a number of you who are academics and do this > for a livelihood. What a wonderful place to work with colleagues! Yes, it would be quite nice if this were one’s livelihood too.. ....the reality, however, is that I’m pretty sure that none of the ‘top ten posters’ do this for any kind of livelihood and we mostly have very busy lives and demanding other livelihoods to take care of;-) > Although I obtained a degree in Philopsophy of Religion many years > ago, I have always 'hung around' those who practice "awareness" more > than those who study the different connotations of a particular word. It may surprise you to know that I think we’re all in the same camp here. I don’t think anyone here is very interested in ‘different connotations of a particular word’ just for the sake of it or for an academic exercise. Take the Pali word ‘jhayanti’ that was being discussed by a few people yesterday; it makes quite a difference to how one’s ‘practice’ is understood if one thinks one is being told to develop jhana, to meditate (i.e. ‘sit) or to develop understanding of samatha and vipasana. So a few ‘key’ words will be considered in more detail. > Nina's last post India Ch 4, no. 4, is probably the most appropriate > response to my current point of view. ...Acharn Sujin"...However, we > should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rupa are, > so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone > says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without > study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it > is wrong." > That pretty much sums up it up. I infer that if one only remains > aware, one will not be able to recognize dhamma when it arises, > because one doesn't know what one should be aware of. Exactly so. We hear many people talking about being aware, but if there is no understanding as to what the nature of awareness really is, what the objects of awareness are, or if it’s all being taken for ‘my awareness’, it may have little or no reference to the development of satipatthana. When A.Sujin encourages ‘study’, she is not just talking about book study, but the beginning to understand realities (directly) while reading, writing, sitting or working. >My point was > that it seems like there is a tremendous amount of "study" clock-time > on the site. When does one have time to sit and just be aware if one > is studying all the time? Hmm..Now we’re both clocking up some “study” on the site. Does this mean there cannot be any awareness now I wonder? Does it mean that we have to wait until we are no longer writing, reading, considering, seeing sights, hearing sounds? Does it mean there would be more awareness if we were sitting in another position, in another location, focussing on different objects? I think that only sati(awareness) and panna (understanding) can know... > I am sure that is not the case, though. > I find the cultural differences of approaching Buddhism quite > intriguing. Many of us in the U.S. who are "lay" usually get some > watered down outline of the teachings and then are instructed in how > to sit and meditate. The teachers that I know are concerned that no > one will participate if the cognitive part of understanding is > pressed > to the level found in dhammastudygroup. Personally, I love it and > study diligently. Most of my dhamma friends do not. I think we all have very different lifestyles, inclinations and interests. Sometimes I find I need a ‘break’ from dhamma texts, my livelihood work and other ‘cognitive’ processes. So I’ll go off for a walk or do some exercise but often find myself considering or even having a little awareness of dhammas even at these times. Sometimes it may just be considering a word or a phrase such as ‘ayatana’ (sense-field), but I find it more helpful than thinking about other subjects or concentrating on any particular object. You’ll find many different viewpoints here, but for a few of us, we consider any ‘practice’ should be very natural and not forced at all. >Anyway, if there > ever is an opportunity for me to participate meaningfully, I shall. You are already and it will be much appreciated by many. Glad you found us, Mike. I appreciate your comments and sincere interest here. Please feel very free to ask anything else;-) Sarah ========================================== 11554 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Erik's full moon postcard Dear Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote: > > > Why not just read what the Suttas say on it instead? :) > > > > I know..why not throw out the vinaya, the abhidhamma, the > commentaries and > > any discussion lists while we're at it?;-) > > That was not the point at all Sarah, and I think you know that :) ..... My apologies..it’s hard with all ‘my’ kilesa (defilements) not to tease you just a little;-) ..... > Because I have a bias toward the Sutta and Vinayana Pitakas as the > most authoritative sources of the Blessed One's instructions, for my > own edification I seek out FIRST the words of the Suttas, and if I > need any commentarial gloss, seek further cl;arification from these > secondary sources. > > The point is, and I think we can most of us agree, that the Suttas > represent the heart-essence of the Buddha's instrutions, some pithy > and difficult to interpret as they are. Nevertheless, when his > teachings are plainly spoken, spoken in a way that leaves little > room for further interpretation, such as the time necessary for the > cultivation of sati and jhana to the point of awakening, then I feel > it best to accept these as definitive, and see no need for recourse > to additional layers of hermeneutical gloss. ..... For others of us, however, the ‘commentarial gloss’ and the abhidhamma are all essential primary sources;-) For example, I referred to the lines which Sariputta heard (and which Num has kindly supplied): ********** "Vinaya, mahavagga rgd Ven Sariputta entered the stream. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/mv1-23-5.html#saristream Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer: Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of Tathagata, the Great Contemplative. Then to Sariputta the Wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. " ********** We may read these lines and say it’s obvious that whatever arises, falls away, but this is just thinking. To actually understand the conditioned nature of phenomena, the arising and falling away of these phenomena and the truth about cessation (nirodha) requires considerable study of all kinds, consideration, and development of sati and panna tot he highest levels. ..... > > In fact, why not throw out the > > Khuddaka-nikaya (inc. Jatakas and Theri-Theragatha) and just read > specific > > Suttas?? > > This has worked for many historically, so, indeed, why not allow the > the Dhamma and Vinaya (and to the best of my recollection > comenatrial literature never made its appearance until the second > council--and that includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, no matter its > fabled origins a la so many Mahayan Sutras) to serve as the guide? ..... I may have to continue with the series I was writing which showed (to my understanding) clearly that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and Khuddaka Nikaya were rehearsed at the first council and also much of the origin of the commentaries..but I’ll leave it for now, having taken note of your other comments;-) ..... > The Buddha makes the explicit statement (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) on > the appropriate development of the Four Frames of Reference: > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two > years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... > three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits > can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if > there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames > of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be > any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the > overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & > distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the > realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of > reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." ..... Nina and Num have already added their (useful) comments. I think we always have to consider the audience the Buddha was speaking to. When he addressed Rahula, what was spoken was different from when he addressed the people of Kalama. When he addressed the Kuru people with the Satipatthana Sutta, we have to consider whether we are like these exceptional people who had already attained very high levels of wholesomeness and didn’t listen to a Buddha by coincidence: ********** (from the Satipatthana Sutta commentary): “The inhabitants of the Kuru country -- bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upasakas, upasikas -- by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate, and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions, were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings. Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places. For even as a man, having got a golden basket should fill it with divers flowers, or indeed having got a golden casket should fill it with precious jewels of the seven kinds, the Blessed One, having got a following of the Kuru-land people, dispensed, it is said, deep doctrine. Likewise, on that very account, there, in the Kurus, the Blessed One, taught other deep teachings: the Maha-nidana Sutta, Maha-satipatthana Sutta, Saropama Sutta, Rukkhupama Sutta, Ratthapala Sutta, Magandiya Sutta, and the Aneñjasappaya Sutta. “ ********** Questions: 1.Are we always ‘healthy in body and in mind’? 2.Do we really have the ‘power of knowledge’ and ‘capable of receiving deep teachings’? 3.Do we have the ‘ability to appreciate this profound instruction’? ********** “Further, in that territory of the Kuru people,[5] the four classes -- bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika -- generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." ********** Further Questions: 1.Are we ‘generally by nature’ ‘earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness’ in ‘daily life’? 2.Do we speak ‘with mindfulness’ in our work? 3. Do we urge our friends, colleagues and neighbours in the ‘Arousing of Mindfulness’? ..... Well, our friends, colleagues and neighbours may not wish to be 'urged', but I think the point is that this was the general climate in which the Kurus lived. Like Nina said, there’s no need to be discouraged, but I think we have to be honest about our true accumulations and tendencies and as Lee expressed more clearly, to see the value of developing understanding now without thinking or minding about long or short time-frames. After all, isn’t there a difference between seeing the value in developing awareness now and thinking/wishing/hoping to become enlightened in this lifetime? ..... > To me any interpretation that does not lend itself to aroused > persistence, to dispassion not to entanglement, to shedding, not to > accumulating, to relinquishment, letting go, and above all the > confidence in the sage advice I find in the well-spoken words the > Buddha, I do not accept as Dhamma, Vinaya, or the Teacher's > instruction. (cf. the Gotami Sutta): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html ..... I think we agree here. ..... > Heh heh heh. Especially after last night's Full Moon Party on Ko Pha > Ngan (never thought I'd actually go to rave with all its attendant > Bacchanalian madness, but did, and found it quite the once-is-enough- > for-this-lifetime experience, so pardon my recent howling. :) Talk > about lunacy. In the very most literal sense of the word! :) I see you’ve moved from Koh Samui and with all our accumulated kilesa (defilements), we’d better never say ‘never’....Perhaps it’s encouraged you to to value our friendship by way of light relief;-) ..... > The spoon is in the pot Sarah, no worries! And I hope you like hot > chilis in your soup! :) ..... Oh no.....when Erik starts adding chilis, I’m really likely to come out in a big sweat;-) Glad to hear from you as (nearly) always;-) Sarah ====================================================== 11555 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 4, No. 4 Thank you Erik. Your focus on the goal is inspiring. Robert --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Lee Dillion wrote: > > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > In your post, you note the following: > > > > > The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because > there have to > > > be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of > satipatthåna. > > > > and > > > > > the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that > > > it takes aeons. > > > > Personally, I have no firm idea of how long development of > satipatthana takes, > > nor is it an overly important issue as long as I sense progress, > but I am > > curious where this idea of satipatthana as a long and gradual > process comes > > from. Is it expressly stated to be so in the suttas or does this > idea come > > from the commentaries or the Abhidhamma? > > Well, in the spirit of "evam me suttam," all I can add is: > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two > years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... > three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits > can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if > there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames > of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be > any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return." > > So this should make pretty clear, from the words attributed to the > Buddha (in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta), how long Satipatthana takes > to develop for those whio diligently put the teachings into direct > and unremitting daily practice. > > As volitional beings, we are of course free to believe that the moon > is made of green cheese, or that satipatthana takes aeons to > develop. Which is an idea I can't help but think rings of lack of > saddha, or lack of confidence in the Buddha's teachings--to these > ears anyway. > > The alternative to this would to me is to place enough confidence in > the teachings of the Buddha on Satipatthana to actually put the four > foundations (all four, not one, or a subset of one, or a personal > interpretation of a subset of one) into direct practice, without any > excuses or eel-wriggling on what the practices and training actually > entail, given they're spelled out in sufficient detail to begin a > plan of action under the guidance of a kalyanamitrata who's gone > that way before (simply consider the case of Angulimala). > > So, at least according to the most reliable record we have of what > the Blessed One taught, if the instructions are practiced rightly, > they can indeed serve as the conditions to bring wisdom to fruition > very quickly. And this has been historically true for many, not just > for a few. > > The alternative (believing it's too dificult or "out of reach") is > too unpleasant to entertain, simply considering the Buddha's > observations that all the tears we've cried throughout our countless > lifetimes up until now would be benough to fill all the world's > oceans, or the bones of the corpses we've left behind are greater in > height and girth than Mount Meru, or that the odds of ever finding a > precious human birh in which we have the opportunity to hear the > Dhamma is so rare that to let this life pass without doing the > utmost to break free HERE AND NOW, IN THIS LIFETIME, is just too > ugly to contemplate. For me, anyway. 11556 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Robert K., If anyone ever doubted your scholarliness, this post should put an end to any hesitation. I am very impressed by the understanding of both philosophy and Pali you display, quite a bit beyond my ability to really coherently take in. Yet, I get some of your points, particularly on the variety of translations that are possible. I am a little confused on where the reference to developing both 'samatha and vipassana' comes in; and to the variety of possibilities for translating "Jhaayatha", as meditating, practicing jhanas, contemplating various objects including Suttas?, etc. Is there a generally accepted translation for Jhaayatha, or is it really this open to interpretation? Are there any references in the Pali canon that *explicitly* refer to the Jhanas, Dhyana, Samadhis, Samatha and Vipassana, in a direct enough way that there is no doubt with regard to the Buddha's meaning and how to translate the Pali terms? Woudl be interesting to know. Meanwhile, I will wait until the rest of what you said stops spinning around in my head, and hope that something that resembles understanding eventually forms there. Best, Robert Ep. ================================== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. > Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is > unnecessary, I wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > >++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Rob E. > I was impressed with your post to Nina today. > Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the > Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little > explication. > The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i > 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > Jim: > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > >> that it does not > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both > >> samatha and > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > >> better translation than > >> 'Practice jhana'. > > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. > In the > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will > find two > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, > contemplate, > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to > burn, to > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa" > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that > helps to > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according > to > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -- > MA i > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. > ----------- > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > know that there are two types. > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > best wishes > robert > 11557 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] automatic Hi, A few thoughts on Rob's and Howard's posts on volition: 1/ There is clearly some kind of volition, as we are not rocks. 2/ It's clear to me that volition acts within and based on conditions and events that are codependently originated. There is no escape from cause and effect. Someone famous once said: "Freedom is not freedom from conditions; freedom is freedom towards conditions." In other words, based on all that has occurred and within the influences of what has occurred, one still makes a choice. 3/ What makes something volition or not is whether, even within arising conditions, there is any choice to be made, or whether it is *all* determined by conditions, down to the last hangnail, or split end of reality. Or does the factor of awareness or mindfulness, the ability that humans have to reflect and take things into account, have any space beyond pure domino-like causation. Rob K. tried to explain the complexity of this mechanism, and I will say quite happily that it is beyond me to even imagine how there can be true volition unless there is some sort of factor that is uncaused making choices. This sounds like a form of atta, or else it is an uncaused principle totally beyond any personal volition, and so is impersonal volition. What that might mean is also beyond my comprehension at the moment. So there you go! My conclusion is that this is the most complicated topic, because even defining volition is prolematic, in the absence of a concept of a defineable self living within and amidst the kandhas. Since we admit of no such self -- and it is pretty clear to me at least intellecutally that there isn't one -- it is even harder to imagine where the volition, if any, would reside. And yet, there is a quality in human experience that seems to me to be volitional and not merely reflection of pure cause and effect. Maybe just another illusion. Maybe not. Best, Robert Ep. =========================== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Group, > Sorry for some more cross-posting. I posted the letter I wrote to > Rob. E. to another list and someone replied. Howard gave such a > profound reply to this that I thought you'd like to read it. > > >Dear Robert, > I try to condense in some words: > > (correct me if I am wrong) > >Whatever happens right now > > is the result of past << conditions >> > >Man has no volition, intention, > > free will, initiative at all ! > > What appear as volition (cetana) intention, free will, initiative > are also already << conditioned >> > > by past conditions ! > > ______________ > In dhamma-list@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, ... > No, there IS volition. And it is "free", unless what one means by > 'free' is being uncaused. Of course we do act volitionally all the > time. But > that volition is formed (sankhata) by numerous conditions, among > which are > our predispositions accumulated over many lifetimes. Our volition > expresses > our inclinations. In fact that is what makes our volition seem > personal, what > makes it "our" volition. Would you feel "freer" if volition were > random? (Of > course, nothing is random, and, also, it is an error to truly think > of > volition as personal even though it is conditioned by our > predispositions, > because "our" predispositions are also impersonal.) > It's a funny business how we think about willing. On the one > hand we > want it to be completely free, which really means we don't want it to > be the > result of conditions, but on the other hand we want it to be "our" > volition, > for otherwise we feel that we lack free will and are helpless slaves. > We want > our cake and to eat it as well. But the way things are is as they > are. We > need to forget about what we would *like* things to be, and, instead, > come to > see clearly how they actually are. With metta, > Howard > > 11558 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:50pm Subject: Ayatanas revisited Dear Nina, Num and Rob K, You’ve inspired me to consider a little more on ayatanas and i've been following some of your references. (Details can be found for others in Visuddhimagga, ch XV: The Bases and Elements ) ********** (Vis 1)“The bases are the twelve bases, that is to say, the eye-base, visible-data base, ear base, sound base, nose base, odour base, tongue base, flavour base, body base, tangible-data bae, mind base, mental-data base.” (5)“Furthermore, ‘base, (ayatana) should be understood in the sense of abode, store (mine), meeting-place, locality of birth, and cause.’”(Vism XV,5) ********** When we read about ayatanas, I understand it is the importance of the meeting point of the various phenomena that is being stressed. Hence when there is the meeting of visible object, eye base and seeing consciousness, they are actuated (aayananti) and so on. I think they help us to understand that this moment is conditioned in a split-second and then passes away. We learn more about the conditioned nature of all realities: ********** (15) “As to how to be seen: here all formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. for they do not come from anywhere prior to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence , and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery (being exercisable over them) since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between past and the future. Hence they should be regarded a having no provenance and no destination. ‘Likewise they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. for it does not occur to the eye and the visible datum, etc, ‘Ah, that consciousness might arise from our concurrence’. And as door, physical basis, and object, they have no curiosity about, or interest in, arousing consciousness. On the contrary, it is the absolute rule that the eye-consciousness, etc, come into being with the union of the eye with visible datum, and so on. So they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. ‘Furthermore, the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure, and self; and the external ones ass village-raiding robbers (S.iv,175) because they raid the internal ones. and this is said: ‘Bhikkhus, the eye is harassed by agreeable and disagreeable visible objects’ (S.iv,175). Furthermore, the internal ones should be regarded as like the six creatures (S.iv, 198-99) and the external ones as like their resorts....’“ ********** These same quotes are given in the Dispeller of Delusion. However, Frank will find it of interest, that in the Dispeller translation it says ‘the internal bases should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, beauty, pleasure and self...’ (note the inclusion of beauty). ..... I was interested to read the Sam Nikaya references which I think Christine will appreciate(1V, 238 The Vipers). ********** We read about a man’s adventure facing four deadly vipers, five murderous enemies,an even more scary sixth murderer, village-attacking dacoits and a great expanse of water to be crossed with no ferry or boat: “’The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom’: this is a designation for the four great elements...... ‘The five murderous enemies’: this is a desgnation for the five aggregates ubject to clinging...... ‘The sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword’: this is a desgnation for delight and lust. ‘The empty village’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If bhikkhus, a wise, competent, intelligent person examines them by way of the eye, they appear to be void, hollow, empty....by way of the ear....by way of the mind.... ‘Village-attacking dacoits’: this is a designation for the six external sense bases. The eye, bhikkhus, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms, the ear..The nose...The tongue...The body..The mind is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena. ‘The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods; the flood of sensulality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance. ‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity. ‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The raft': this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view....right concentration. ‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a desgnation for the arousing of energy. ‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.” ********** I asked about a few points when we were in Bangkok that you’d all been discussing. As I recollect, the ayatanas help us understand how this moment is conditioned ‘in a split second’ and passes away.. We cannot say that ayatanas are another way of classifying namas and rupas. Mind base refers to all cittas, including lokuttara and all bhavanga cittas strictly speaking. However, manayatana ‘doesn’t usually refer to bhavanga cittas because ‘who knows these?’’ Cetasikas are classified as external mind objects (dhammayatana), but not pannatti (concepts) which of course are not real. We can only talk about eyebase (cakkayatana) at this moment of seeing (cakkhuvinnana) and other experiences through this doorway.It is only at this meeting (as we read in the Vism quote above) that eye sense and visible object have sabhava. Num, most of the detail on ayatana in the Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani) is included in the Visuddhimagga. This includes the paragraph which I think you asked to be quoted in full. It can be found (identical, from a quick look) at Vism XV, 14 and includes these two sentences: ********** “...And the mind base, when classified according to profitable, unprofitable, resultant, and functional consciousness, is of eighty-nine inds or of one hundred and twenty-one kinds, but it is of infinite variety when classified according to physical basis, progress, and so on. The visible data, sound, odour and flavour bases are of infinite variety when classified according to sissimilarity, condition, and so on....” ********** This really reminds me of the complexity of conditions and the infinite variety of resulting phenomena. Categories and numbers are only used to help us understand these phenomena better, I think. Let me add one more quote: ********** Sam Nik 1V, 19 Delight “Bhikkhus, one who seeks delight in the eye seks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is not free from suffering. One who seeks delight in the ear..in the nose..in the tongue..in the body...in the mind eeks delight in suffering. One who seeks delight in suffering, I say, is not freed from suffering. One who does not seek delight in the eye...in the mind does not seek delight in suffering. One who does not seek delight in suffering, I say, is freed from suffering.” 20 Delight 2 (The same for the six external sense bases). ********** Thanks for the chance to consider a little more. Sarah ========================================= 11559 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:13am Subject: Division into two of Anatta - Useful Posts Dear All, I am really benefiting from the Anatta Useful Posts being divided into Anatta(not self) and Anatta - No Control? Thank you to those who put the effort into this task. Much appreciated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts metta, Christine 11560 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome Mike B Mike B Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for your comments. Just a thought to take with you on your retreat. --- mikebrotherto wrote: > I will have the honor of being in retreat with Bhante Gunaratana next > week in St. Louis, Missouri. In May, another 10 day retreat with > Matthew Flickstein.I vow to remain present as much as possible in this > lifetime. Who knows? The Buddha’s description of ‘remaining present’ involves, as appears in the passage quoted recently by Nina, the *awareness or understanding of a present dhamma*. This should not be taken as precluding the *thinking about* the past or the future, to my understanding. Such thinking is the ‘present dhamma’ of the moment it occurs and can be the object of awareness or understanding. I believe that even the arahant conceptualises about the past and the future, and must do so constantly in order to relate to the world at large. But he/she does so without, in the words of the passage, ‘following after’ the past or ‘desiring’ the future. Even for us worldlings, there can be momentary absence of such following after or desiring whenever there is awareness or understanding of a present dhamma. Jon Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakaògiya “The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it.” 11561 From: egberdina Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 4:13am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured tradition. The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup institution. And what fruit does this bear? Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. > Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is > unnecessary, I wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > >++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Rob E. > I was impressed with your post to Nina today. > Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the > Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little > explication. > The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i > 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > Jim: > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > >> that it does not > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both > >> samatha and > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > >> better translation than > >> 'Practice jhana'. > > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. > In the > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the - ti > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will > find two > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, > contemplate, > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to > burn, to > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa" > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that > helps to > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according > to > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." - - > MA i > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. > ----------- > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > know that there are two types. > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > best wishes > robert 11562 From: Yulia Klimov Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine Thank you for this post from the bottom of my heart. This is exactly what I am feeling today, thank you for putting it in such easy words. Love, Yulia -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah and all, Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, and I have never been like that before. And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no grief -- so how fear?] I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and isn't....... And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and what > > eventually became of him? > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first time > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the Buddha > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > permission. > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was declared > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also features > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses in the > Theragatha. > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't remember > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and the > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he never lay > on a bed". > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details to add. > > Sarah > ============================ 11563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 3 India Ch 5, no 3 Listening to the Dhamma and considering what we heard can condition the arising of sati. It depends on someone¹s accumulated inclinations how deeply he will consider what he hears. Nobody can control the arising of mindfulness, it all depends on the accumulated conditions for it. Nobody can control the object of mindfulness either. As we were often reminded: nobody can choose to see, nobody can choose to hear, nobody can choose to have sati, these realities arise when there are the right conditions. We may try to have conditions as a support for paññå but this is motivated by clinging to the concept of self. Acharn Sujin stressed that we need more understanding of the truth of non-self as a firm foundation that can condition the arising of right awareness. She said: ³When a characteristic of a reality appears, do we just remember the name of that reality, or is there sati arising because of its own conditions? A reality such as seeing may appear, but it appears for a very short time, and then it falls away. Sati arises for a very short moment and then it falls away. Sati that is aware without trying to focus on a reality is right awareness. But the clinging to the concept of self comes in between all the time. It is very difficult to become detached from it. Gradually we can become familiar with the different characteristics that appear.² Acharn Sujin explained many times how important it is to be sincere as to one's own development. We should realize when there is satipatthåna and when there is not, we should realize what we understand already and what not yet. She stressed that it is the task of sati to be mindful of realities, not our task. If we deeply consider this, we shall be less inclined to think of sati with attachment, or to try to induce sati. By listening to the Dhamma and considering what we hear, right understanding of the way to develop satipatthåna grows, and thus, conditions are gradually accumulated for the arising of sati of satipatthåna. When sati of satipatthåna arises and is aware of a characteristic, paññå can understand what sati is and in this way the difference can be discerned between the moment that there is sati and the moment that there is forgetfulness of realities. When sati is mindful of a reality, paññå, understanding of that characteristic, can gradually develop. Acharn Sujin reminded us many times that we should have no expectations with regard to the arising of sati and paññå: ³One can live happily with regard to the development of understanding, and this can be very natural. If there is very little paññå, one sees one¹s own accumulations and one knows that one cannot have what has not been accumulated. Someone may dislike his accumulations, but if there is more understanding he can take life easy. When paññå arises there are no expectations, the function of paññå is detachment. If there is not enough understanding and there is desire for sati and paññå, they cannot arise. We should know, if there is interest to listen, that it is not self who has an interest, but that it arises because of conditions.² 11564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Num's life and study op 27-02-2002 20:17 schreef michael newton op newtonmichael@h...: >> Hello!Nina; > I see at the end of this email you wrote that you have a MAC.So do I,I have > a MACIBOOK,and I truly love it, > .Can I drop out of your > group from Hotmail-while keeping > your dhammastudygroup connection on my Yahoo.account?Think,if I could do > this-it would make my life > a little easier.Don't know,Nina,whether you or Sarah,know anything of > this,but since many members,will > see this-maybe there is a member of this group,who is knowlegible,that could > guide me.Tried to do it > on my own,no sucess. Dear Michael, I am so bad at technical things, sorry I would not know. You could ask the help desk of your provider. Nina 11565 From: tikmok Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 10:39am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... Let me forwarn: long, like usual. > -----Original Message----- > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > tradition. > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > Herman Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have tons of words that help us understand the different realities that are rising now. It's mind boggling to see how many different ways the tipitaka describes the word panna (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a question of how many words there are: it is the question of why we read/listen to the words for, and why we use those many words. Words are two-sided blades: they cut either way. I am not sure if I am right to assume that you latter statement (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. However, it does seem to me that his discussion is along the line of the former statement (Discussing jhana...). Regarding to the sentiment that dissuading people from the practice of Jhana is a DSG instituition, let me offer an explanation from someone who have asked a similar question. Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to disuade people from Jhana: 1) Satipathana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibanna. Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point as far as I know. 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already overwhelming to some of us. 3) Beyond studying realities and satipathana, it is important to develop all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly falls within this parameter. 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people with the right accumulations can develop this. 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intiricacies of Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing this. 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana b) Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. b) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking / exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick you kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. b) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. kom 11566 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:29am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Hello Kom and all, I am interested to know how people understand the following discourse. Regards, Victor Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 Suda Sutta The Cook Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He does not take note of (lit: pick up on the theme of) his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook does not pick up on the theme of his own master. "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements [Comm: the five Hindrances] are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact (does not pick up on that theme). He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk does not take note of his own mind (does not pick up on the theme of his own mind). "Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, skillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & gifts. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook picks up on the theme of his own master. "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, experienced, skillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact. As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, together with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of his own mind." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-008.html --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... Let me forwarn: long, > like usual. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma > > > > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > > tradition. > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > Herman > > Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have tons of words that help > us understand the different realities that are rising now. It's mind > boggling to see how many different ways the tipitaka describes the word > ----- (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a question of how many > words there are: it is the question of why we read/listen to the words > for, and why we use those many words. Words are two-sided blades: > they cut either way. > > I am not sure if I am right to assume that you latter statement > (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. However, it does seem to me > that his discussion is along the line of the former statement (Discussing > jhana...). > > Regarding to the sentiment that dissuading people from the practice of > Jhana is a DSG instituition, let me offer an explanation from someone > who have asked a similar question. > > Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to disuade people from > Jhana: > > 1) Satipathana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibanna. > Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to > reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point > as far as I know. > > 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it > is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what > Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already > overwhelming to some of us. > > 3) Beyond studying realities and satipathana, it is important to develop > all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing > that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I > believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) > are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly > falls within this parameter. > > 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for > everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take > (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning > about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life > as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before > learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after > seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? > > 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained > just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that > gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). > Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people > with the right accumulations can develop this. > > 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as > learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many > people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intiricacies of > Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of > (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing > this. > > 7) The texts say this about Jhana: > a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for > satipathana > b) Extremely hard to maintain > c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly > see faults in the 5 sensualities. > > 8) Getting more controversial: > a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to > overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 > sensualities. > b) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over > from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have > seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw > a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual > relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less > and less. > c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to > attenuate, very substantially, the seeking / exposures to the 5 > sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? > d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the > mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely > to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism > at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with > nibbana being the highest peace. > > 9) Really controversial: > a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing > Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala > states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take > anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you > are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala > or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana > through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development > through compassion (karuna). Pick you kid. When you do something for > your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment > you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. > Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you > equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the > same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell > the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this > to the level of total absorption. > b) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The > tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. > c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing > this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. > Some people think that ----- at the patti-patti (practice) level can only > become sharper because there are development of ----- (about > realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain > via tranquil meditation. > > 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: > Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to > the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total > absorption). > > I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a > institutional discouragement only because: > I) Priority of learning > II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. > III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. > > kom 11567 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:38am Subject: Concentration Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 Samadhi Sutta Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Tue 18 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html 11568 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:42am Subject: Prerequisites Samyutta Nikaya XII.23 Upanisa Sutta Prerequisites Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way. "The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance, it should be said. "Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite. "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big lakes are full, they fill the little rivers. When the little rivers are full, they fill the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean. In the same way: "Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html 11569 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 11:45am Subject: An Analysis of the Path Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Path Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks." "Yes, lord," the monks responded to him. The Blessed One said, "I will teach & analyze for you the Noble Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded to him. The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual intercourse: This, monks, is called right action. "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood. "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness. "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45.8.html 11570 From: Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Hi Christine, Kom and Sarah I cut and pasted from the suttas that are available on the web. I read them in Thai before, the discourse is pretty uplifting. I have never read about what happened to Rahula at the end. This part is from Vinayapitaka. Mahavagga, mahakhandhaka. This happened during the Buddha visiting his father in Kapilavatsu. (Kom, I think the Buddha's father asked Buddha to lay down a rule not to accept anyone into ordination without parental permission b/c of ordination of Rahula.) I think the Buddha gave Rahula the best thing he can give, an ariya-asset. I cut and pasted this from http://metta.lk/tipitaka/. (Sorry, I cannot just put the hyperlink here, b/c it will come up with the whole vagga, that's very long.) << -- And in the forenoon the Blessed One, having put on His robes, took His alms-bowl and with His civara on went to the residence of the Sakka Suddhodana (His father). Having gone there, He sat down on a seat laid out for Him. Then the princess, who was the mother of Ràhula said to young Ràhula: `This is your father, Ràhula; go and ask Him for your inheritance.' Then young Ràhula went to the place where the Blessed One was; having approached Him, he stationed himself before the Blessed One (and said): your shadow, samaõa, is a place of bliss.' Then the Blessed One rose from His seat and went away, and young Ràhula followed the Blessed One from behind and said: `Give me my inheritance, samana; give me my inheritance, samana.' Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Sàriputta: `Well, Sàriputta, confer the pabbajjà ordination on young Ràhula.' ---- ---Then the Sakka Suddhodana went to the place where the Blessed One ---- --- Lord, when the Blessed One gave up the world, it was a great pain to me; so it was when Nanda did the same; my pain was excessive when Ràhula too did so. The love for a son, Lord, cuts into the skin; having cut into the skin, it cuts into the hide; having cut into the hide, it cuts into the flesh . . . the ligaments . . . the bones; having cut into the bones, it reaches the marrow and dwells in the marrow. Pray, Lord, let their reverences not confer the pabbajjà ordination on a son without his father's and mother's permission.' `Let no son, O bhikkhus, receive the pabbajjà ordination without his father's and mother's permission. He who confers the pabbajjà ordination (on a son without that permission), is guilty of a dukkaña offence.-- >> Later on (I do not know how long) the Buddha taught his son, Rahula, with his metta, patience and his kindness. The teaching is very in detail about 3 gateways of kamma: bodily, verbal and mental conduct. (Not to do any lying is in here) http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/061-amba latthika-rahulovada-e1.htm <<-- Rahula, what is the purpose of a mirror?' 'Venerable sir, for the purpose of reflection.' 'Rahula in the same manner reflecting you should do bodily actions, reflecting you should do verbal actions, reflecting you should do mental actions-- >> Later, the Buddha taught Ven. Rahula about 4 ariyascca and satiatthana by teaching 5 khandhas, 5 dhatu (4 great elements and space element), practicing according to 5 dhatu, barhmaviraha 4, asubha, aniccasanna(to discard conceit), anapanasati http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha -rahulovada-e1.htm <<--Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of your mind and stay. Rahula on the earth is dumped, the pure and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, the earth does not loathe those, in the same manner develop a mind similar to earth. When you develop a mind similar to earth, arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of the mind and stay-->> The enlightenment of Rahula. : The Buddha knew that it's time for Rahula to become an arahat. He asked Rahula to go to the dark forest with him. The Buddha again taught Rahula about 4 ariyasacca, 5 khandha and 18 dhatu. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/147-cula rahulovada-e.htm Best wishes, Num 11571 From: Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi, Victor - In a message dated 3/1/02 2:42:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, victoryu@s... writes: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as > they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is > present? > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > as they actually are present." > > > =========================== Without a doubt concentration supports mindfulness, clear comprehension, and the arising of insight. The question is whether insight can arise without more than a modicum of concentration. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta seems to indicate in the affirmative. I think concentration is of major importance. But it is a very specific question that is being looked at. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11572 From: Victor Yu Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 1:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hello Howard, Yes, I have been thinking about the relation between mindfulness and concentration since this afternoon as I was reading the messages on d-l and dsg. Regards, Victor > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 > > Samadhi Sutta > > Concentration > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as > > they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is > > present? > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > > inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > > inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > > dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > > inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > > inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > > in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > > as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > > as they actually are present." > > > > > > > =========================== > Without a doubt concentration supports mindfulness, clear > comprehension, and the arising of insight. The question is whether insight > can arise without more than a modicum of concentration. The Mahasatipatthana > Sutta seems to indicate in the affirmative. > I think concentration is of major importance. But it is a very > specific question that is being looked at. > > With metta, > Howard 11573 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 5:56pm Subject: right concentration, jhana Re: [dsg] An Analysis of the Path And notice right concentration is defined as the 4 jhanas, to tie into the other thread on jhana vs. meditation. -fk --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 > Magga-vibhanga Sutta > An Analysis of the Path > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was > staying in Savatthi > at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. > There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks." > > "Yes, lord," the monks responded to him. > > The Blessed One said, "I will teach & analyze for > you the Noble > Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." > > "As you say, lord," the monks responded to him. > > The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble > Eightfold Path? > Right view, right resolve, right speech, right > action, right > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration. > > "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with > regard to stress, > knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, > knowledge with > regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with > regard to the way of > practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, > monks, is called > right view. > > "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on > renunciation, on > freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is > called right resolve. > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, > abstaining from > divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, > abstaining from idle > chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. > > "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from > taking life, > abstaining from stealing, abstaining from sexual > intercourse: This, > monks, is called right action. > > "And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the > case where a > disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned > dishonest livelihood, > keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, > monks, is called > right livelihood. > > "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the > case where a monk > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts > his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He > generates desire, > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his intent for the > sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > qualities that have > arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He > generates desire, > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his intent for the > maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This, monks, is > called right effort. > > "And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is > the case where a > monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- > ardent, aware, & > mindful -- putting away greed & distress with > reference to the world. > (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of > themselves -- ardent, > aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & distress > with reference to > the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & > of itself -- > ardent, aware, & mindful -- putting away greed & > distress with > reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on > mental qualities > in & of themselves -- ardent, aware, & mindful -- > putting away greed > & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, > is called right > mindfulness. > > "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There > is the case where > a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, > withdrawn from > unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in > the first jhana: > rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by directed > thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of > directed thought & > evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: > rapture & > pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of > awareness free > from directed thought & evaluation -- internal > assurance. (iii) With > the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, > mindful & fully > aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in > the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With > the abandoning of > pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance > of elation & > distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: > purity of > equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. > This, monks, is > called right concentration." > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the > monks delighted at > his words. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45.8.html 11574 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Kom and all, > > I am interested to know how people understand the > following discourse. > > Regards, > Victor I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus concentration is not focused, and the practice is unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by that particular hindrance(s). -fk > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 > Suda Sutta > The Cook > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > "Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, > unskillful cook who > has presented a king or a king's minister with > various kinds of > curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, > mainly sweet, > alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He > does not take note > of (lit: pick up on the theme of) his master, > thinking, 'Today my > master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that > curry, or he > takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. > Today my master > likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes > mainly bitter > curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet > curry... alkaline > curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today > my master likes > non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty > curry, or he takes a > lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty > curry.' As a result, > he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. > Why is that? > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook > does not pick up > on the theme of his own master. > "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, > inexperienced, > unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of > itself -- ardent, > alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress > with reference to > the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in > & of itself, his > mind does not become concentrated, his defilements > [Comm: the five > Hindrances] are not abandoned. He does not take note > of that fact > (does not pick up on that theme). He remains focused > on feelings in & > of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > qualities in & of > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside greed & > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > thus focused on > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does > not become > concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He > does not take > note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded > with a pleasant > abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & > alertness. Why is that? > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk > does not take > note of his own mind (does not pick up on the theme > of his own mind). > > "Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, > skillful cook who has > presented a king or a king's minister with various > kinds of curry: > mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly > sweet, alkaline or > non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of > his master, > thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he > reaches out for > that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he > praises that curry. > Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my > master likes > mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... > mainly sweet curry... > alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty > curry... Today my > master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for > non-salty curry, > or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises > non-salty curry.' > As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & > gifts. Why is > that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook > picks up on the > theme of his own master. > > "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, > experienced, skillful > monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... > feelings in & of > themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > qualities in & of > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside greed & > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > thus focused on > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind > becomes concentrated, > his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that > fact. As a > result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here > & now, together > with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because > the wise, > experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of > his own mind." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-008.html > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" > wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > > > Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... > Let me forwarn: > long, > > like usual. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " > wasKamma > > > > > > > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words > about a wordless > state. > > > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana > is a time honoured > > > tradition. > > > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits > of the > contemplative > > > life. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is > a > dhammastudygroup > > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > > > Herman > > > > Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have > tons of words that > help > > us understand the different realities that are > rising now. It's > mind > > boggling to see how many different ways the > tipitaka describes the > word > > ----- (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a > question of how > many > > words there are: it is the question of why we > read/listen to the > words > > for, and why we use those many words. Words are > two-sided blades: > > they cut either way. > > > > I am not sure if I am right to assume that you > latter statement > > (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. > However, it does seem > to me > > that his discussion is along the line of the > former statement > === message truncated === 11575 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> One of the things I admire about you Herman is that you call a spade a spade, you don't say anything just to court popularity, and no-one need ever fear that you will express different opinions away from them than you would to their face....True blue. I was going to send you some John Williamson lyrics (when I thought you were too busy to post), - always a risk - one either loves him or hates him - 'don't say you've gone, say you've knocked off for a smoko and you'll be back later on....' Just a personal comment (i.e. read 'not a scrap of scholarship in it' - I'll leave that to others): When I came to this List, I became conscious for the first time that buddhists didn't come with a 'one size fits all' practice system. I knew they mostly held to the same truth and that they simply expressed this belief in different ways. But I thought Meditation and the form that meditation practice took was a universally agreed 'common sense'. ( Actually, I didn't even think about it - it just 'was' - hadn't it been done this way for centuries and by vast majorities?... uh-oh...) I could cope quite well with differing views when 'those who were different' were any part of the rich Mahayana tradition, but found it unsettling when they were Theravadins - and conservative Theravadins at that. I realised I had fallen in with a group where there were some who didn't agree that what I thought (and had been taught) was the only way to practise, was so. I am curious by nature (accumulations?), but do not necessarily have a well-ordered or disciplined mind, tending more to ride the raft of my feelings. I am well aware that not having a disciplined mind initially makes me an easy victim of commonly held views and confidently presented methods of practice. But, like most Australians, an innate cynicism (accumulations?) makes me take a second and third look. So - like playing poker, I sat in for a few hands to size up these people, confident that I'd pick the flaw in their game(reasoning and method), and come out a winner. Haven't quite managed to pick the flaw, yet, but don't feel I'm losing.... What all that rambling is meant to say is that rather than there being even a mild form of dissuasion from practice of jhana on this list, there is, on the contrary, an acceptance of difference not seen on the other Theravadin lists, and the reasoned discussion of, and respect for, all views. This doesn't have to mean agreement. As a novice buddhist, I have not experienced any attempt to dissuade me from, or persuade me towards, any form of practice by members of this dsg list. I feel warmly held and supported, but not constrained...... Encouragement is different to persuasion......I have simply been given encouragement to keep considering, reflecting and studying. I have been encouraged to keep questioning anything stated by any list member, and to check everything against the Buddhas' teachings...even in Bangkok....and to be gentle with myself and not to desire instant results. And most important for me, no-one has ever made feel that any question is too stupid to be asked (though I would perfectly understand if there was a certain mild exasperation evident when I request repetitive answers.) Indeed, on other lists I have been horrified to see professed buddhists use the full armoury of exclusion, sarcasm, malicious, derisive humour, personal denigration, unremitting harrassment, verbal gang attack by real and virtual identities against individuals who simply hold and express different views on what practice should be. I have unbounded admiration for the courage and faith of those who can tolerate and not be beaten down by such sustained attacks.(and I have 'another' sort of unbounded emotion for the attackers.) But it was these vocal 'attackers' - the majority - so frequently, hypocritically and self-righteously trumpeting their own virtues, commitment and good motives, denying any ill-will, and congratulating those who were 'like' them, who filled me with such revulsion, that if their behaviour was the fruit of promoting formal sitting meditation and practise of jhana, then I wanted to take a look at every (ANY other) point of view. I know that just writing the above paragraph reveals so much about my own kilesas, and 'expectations' has had a round or two of its own recently as well. Lucky you all knew about my defilements anyway... :-). Herman, I feel no concern that anything other than tolerance and respect regarding sincerely held beliefs will be met with on this list. Discussion, giving and receiving teaching and courteous respectful debate are part of the joys I find here. Goodness! This was going to be just one paragraph. Hope you've made it this far....... metta, Christine -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > tradition. > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > wrote: > > > . ""Over there are the roots of trees; over > > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. > > Don't > > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you.""" > > > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is > > unnecessary, I wonder > > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > >++++++++++++++++++++ > > Dear Rob E. > > I was impressed with your post to Nina today. > > Glad you brought this sutta up, as there are several like it in the > > Tipitaka. I think it is one of those phrases that need a little > > explication. > > The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical phrase: > > > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino > > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i > > 118 (MN > > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. > > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and > > vipassanaa". > > > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii > 195 > > (there's a bit more just before this) > > Jim: > > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > > >> that it does not > > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both > > >> samatha and > > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > > >> better translation than > > >> 'Practice jhana'. > > > > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha > ending. > > In the > > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the - > ti > > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will > > find two > > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, > > contemplate, > > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to > > burn, to > > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the > > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and > > vipassanaa" > > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that > > helps to > > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate > > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation > > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. > according > > to > > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." - > - > > MA i > > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson. > > ----------- > > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > > know that there are two types. > > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." > (same > > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above. > > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > > meditative absorptions" > > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > > three characteristics'"endquote > > > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > > actual > > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > > best wishes > > robert 11576 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abandoning our values (was: Pre-Bangkok, etc...) Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > you wrote: "The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to > develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not > grasp-worthy) (= vipassana)." > > I agree, but this is an intricate and delicate process. As Christine > asked in so many words, who wants to abandon all their values? I don't think the Buddha is suggesting we should abandon our values or indeed anything, at least not in the sense I take you to mean (it is impossible to abandon something that is still clung to). What the teachings point out, on my reading, is that the attachment/clinging to values or whatever can be eradicated, and this is effected in stages by the development of insight. As each stage of clinging is eradicated the clung-to things are abandoned in the sense that, since they are no longer clung to, they fall away naturally. As you can see, this does not call for any act of giving up/abandonment as such. > The point > I was going for was something I picked up in abhidhamma studies. How do > you grasp or attach-to a citta or even a rupa? Impossible. Not sure I'm with you here, Larry. Would you like to expand on this? As I understand it, attachment is of the nature to grasp or cling to things, whether real or imagined, just as aversion is of the nature to repel. > Coincidentally I had been looking for desire in all the wrong places, > i.e. any kind of unpleasant reaction. It was rather amazing that I found > it there, and finding desire in suffering seemed to unravel the dense > compoundedness of the "suffering", actually very trivial. Further > research is necessary, but I think this is relevant to "attachment". Finding attachment in suffering? I'd be interested to hear more. > How do you say "best wishes" in Chinese? In the context of closing a letter, I have no idea, since my written Chinese is almost non-existent. However, in colloquial Cantonese I guess it would be something like 'hoi-sum dii' (lit. be happy) (corrections from our Chinese speaking members welcome). Thanks anyway, and 'hoi-sum dii' to you, Larry. Jon 11577 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Good friend in dhamma (was: Practice, beings and contact) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > If I haven't already answered this, thank you for the clarification on > what you > were saying the 'pronouncements' were not useful for, that is, telling > whether or > not someone was actually enlightened. > > I have to ask, though: don't we all have to draw such conclusions in > order to > choose to listen to a 'wise friend well versed in the Dhamma'? And how > can we > know whether that person is a good advisor or not, if we do not have > either a > useful tradition to rely on, or a trustworthy instinct to rely on? A fairly straightforward answer to this last question is given in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (DN 16). There the Buddha said that the person's words and expressions 'should be carefully noted and compared with the suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they … on such comparison and review are found to conform to the suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this [person]."' The crux of it, I think, is that we should never take anything we are told at face value, or evaluate it against our own instincts or intuition, but should always check it out against the teachings as recorded in the ancient texts. Of course, the more familiar one is with the texts, the easier this is. As a direct corollary of this, I would think that any person whose understanding is true to the 'suttas or the discipline' (i.e., the texts) would be likely to encourage others to check against the same source for themselves, and would be happy to discuss points of dhamma by reference to the texts (rather than, for example, in terms of their own experience or things not found in the texts). I should add that it's not simply matter of being able to cite a single text that appears to support a proposition, it's a matter of having a comprehensive knowledge of the teachings as a whole. Definite turn-offs (danger signs) to me would be anyone claiming (directly or indirectly) to have powers or levels of understanding (or allowing others to encourage that idea), claiming to be in possession of aspects of the teaching that are not recorded in the texts (but, for example, handed down person to person), telling me not to consider, discuss or analyse but just to do, or telling me that study of or discussion about the teachings was of no or little benefit. In my own case, almost everything I have come to understand about the teachings was contrary to my intuition at the time I first heard it. But since I could find no fault in it in terms of the texts, I felt I should hang around and listen some more. > I believe that both are viable, while it is clear to me that you believe > that > akusala can subtly pervade all areas of life and that our 'feelings' > about whether > something is headed in the right direction or not are inherently > deceptive. A > view I respect, by the way, and have been caused to pause and think > about. > > I have felt strongly that the Mahayana tradition has great authenticity > and wisdom > in its living lineage, as I also feel about the Theravadan tradition. I > have some > trust in the lineage holders of both traditions. Plus, I have allowed > myself to > trust in teachers just based on their apparent depth and wisdom to me. > I do > however understand your view about such things. > > So I will just repeat my question, which is meant respectfully and with > curiosity: > how can you be sure that your interpretation of the suttas, and the > advice you > get from 'wise friends' is kusala and heading one in the right > direction, if you > do not believe in using either tradition or instinct to make that > determination? For reasons I've already given, I don't think anyway that it's necessary to make any assumptions about another person's level of understanding. One listens to what the person has to say and then considers it by reference to the body of teachings, making due allowance for one's own 'instincts' (I prefer to think of them as prejudices, in my own case). Both tradition and instinct are specifically disclaimed by the Buddha in the Kalamas sutta as a proper basis for judging whether something is the true dhamma. Jon 11578 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Howard Aha. Gotcha! No, seriously, there is no trap being laid here. I just thought it better to go step by step. So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other important ingredient in the mix, Howard). Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they really are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object of the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And if the person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object would in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be *conceptualising about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is bound up with akusala. I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect moments of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of kusala, particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 2/24/02 12:08:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > Howard > > > > Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed > > with. > > > > To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider > the > > difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and > > *observation of realities/dhammas*. > > > > By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed > attention > > or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what > is > > happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is > mind > > with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed > to a > > particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might > be > > directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. > > > > Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that > such > > directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It > seems > > to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of > self > > etc. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there be > a > strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the > teachings on > > not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to > seeing > > them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would > have to > > disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Indeed. Mere intellectual understanding of these teachings is not > > nearly enough, though it is a help and an important beginning. > ----------------------------------------------------- > And unless> > > we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of > kusala > > and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the > > consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be > sure. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No disagreement on this. (I'm waiting now for the punchline which > will > make me want to withdraw all the ready agreement I've been giving!! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume > or > > infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general > circumstances of > > the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the > mind > > is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by > > tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and > > pervasive nature of akusala. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I think this is so. I don't presume that many of my mind-moments > are > kusala. In fact, I suspect that almost all of them are flawed. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but > perhaps > > I've said enough controversial things for one post! > > > > I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, I'm afraid you must be mightily disappointed with those I > have > provided herein! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Jon > > > > PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed > to > > you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your > posts! > =========================== > With metta, > Howard 11579 From: tikmok Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:45pm Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long > enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment > <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a > dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> Very happy to hear such an inspiring note. You are a real catch! kom 11580 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Doing nothing, doing something (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.)) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > If such is the case, then there is no practice. I assume, as I asked > Rob K. in my > last post, that you would then feel that there is nothing to be done by > these > kandhas including 'consciousness' making a decision or exercising will, > and that > in fact the kandhas are on 'automatic pilot' being buffetted completely > by > conditions in one or another direction. When it is time for panna to > arise, it > surely will, if the conditions dictate that more painful kamma will be > created, > nothing to be done. > > It seems to me that with this understanding that there is predestination > and > complete determinism. There is no moment in which the 'sentient' > quality of > consciousness has any effect that has not been strictly caused by a > mechanical > arising condition. So fate is determined in advance by the causes that > will come > from prior causes and we need do nothing but wait? Let me ask you, Rob. Would you consider that taking part in these and other discussions, asking questions, considering answers is 'doing nothing but wait'? Is reading the suttas purely out of interest in what they have to say (i.e., not because you think you're going to have any more awareness then or later) doing nothing? Is reflecting on what you've read or heard by reference to the present moment doing nothing? These may not be what you think of as 'doing something', but I suggest they are all volitional acts. > I paint this seemingly stark picture because I want to know if this is > in fact the > case from your standpoint, or is there another way in which the human > desire to > follow the path and know the Dhamma plays some sort of active role? Another of the conditions for hearing the true dhamma, if we are already associating with the right people, is exchanging ideas about the teachings and considering what we hear against our experience at the present moment. That's why it's useful to talk about such mundane realities as visible object and sound, because they can be the object of some reflection at the very time of talking or reading about them. For example, how does the seeing consciousness or visible object appearing at the present moment differ from what we conventionally designate as the 'computer screen' that is now 'being looked at'. > I am not saying, by the way, that either version is right or wrong. I > am just > trying to sort things out. Right. I hope I have been able to help do that. Jon 11581 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > As for meditation, what I am doing at the moment is regarding the > nama/rupa distinction as a distinction between truth and illusion. Truth > being rupa and illusion being nama. This is a casual way of speaking; > you could also say nama is defilement and rupa is non-defilement, or > something like that. The basic point is to take everything one thinks > and emotionally feels as illusory and fundamentally wrong. I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are saying, but some people consider that rupas are 'more real' than namas. While it is easy to see where this idea comes from, it is not something that finds any supoprt in the teachings, as far as I know. It was the Buddha's great achievement to be able to see by direct knowledge what is real and what is not, and to perceive that all realities are possessed of the same 3 characteristics (anicca, dhkkhhu and anatta), although at the same time each has its own particular 'individual essence' (sabhava) that distinguishes it from all other realities. > Technically speaking all this thinking and feeling could be analyzed > into ultimate realities, but the experience of it is suffering. For a > crude ordinary person like myself, the experience of rupa is not > suffering. That is a very interesting finding, and warrants further > looking into. Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, because it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as either nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual grasp of what the teachings have to say on this. The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in number. Jon 11582 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Group, There are said to be numerous routes to nibbana. Sometimes the commentaries expand these into the thousands but they are grouped under three main types: 1. Those who use insight preceeded by samatha. They are masters of jhana and develop insight based on Jhana. 2. Those who develop insight in conjunction with samatha. 3. Those who develop insight alone . (But at the moment of attaining nibbana they of course attain supermundane jhana). They thus also have samatha finally. I think the Suda sutta (samyutta nikaya mahavagga p1634 Bodhi)can be referring to any of these in that it says "While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign.." Corruptions abandoned is enlightenment and the sign can be either that of concentration of insight. The commentary to this phrase is explained in Bodhi's note to the sutta. He refers to 'Cittasa nimmittan gahessati' (pick up the sign) that this is explained by the commentary to ANIII 423 13 'cittassa nimittan ti samadhi vipassanacittasa nimittam, samadhivipassanakaram': sign of the mind; sign of concentration OR insight, the mode of concentration OR insight. Anyaway it is good to keep in mind the various ways of development as some suttas stress samadhi and others stress insight. I think the satipatthana sutta covers all. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Hello Kom and all, > > > > I am interested to know how people understand the > > following discourse. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is > ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, > he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is > preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus > concentration is not focused, and the practice is > unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as > meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of > the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not > apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness > fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by > that particular hindrance(s). > > > -fk > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 > > Suda Sutta > > The Cook > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---------- > > "Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, > > unskillful cook who > > has presented a king or a king's minister with > > various kinds of > > curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, > > mainly sweet, > > alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He > > does not take note > > of (lit: pick up on the theme of) his master, > > thinking, 'Today my > > master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that > > curry, or he > > takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. > > Today my master > > likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes > > mainly bitter > > curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet > > curry... alkaline > > curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today > > my master likes > > non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty > > curry, or he takes a > > lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty > > curry.' As a result, > > he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. > > Why is that? > > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook > > does not pick up > > on the theme of his own master. > > "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, > > inexperienced, > > unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of > > itself -- ardent, > > alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress > > with reference to > > the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in > > & of itself, his > > mind does not become concentrated, his defilements > > [Comm: the five > > Hindrances] are not abandoned. He does not take note > > of that fact > > (does not pick up on that theme). He remains focused > > on feelings in & > > of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > > qualities in & of > > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > > aside greed & > > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > > thus focused on > > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does > > not become > > concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He > > does not take > > note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded > > with a pleasant > > abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & > > alertness. Why is that? > > Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk > > does not take > > note of his own mind (does not pick up on the theme > > of his own mind). > > > > "Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, > > skillful cook who has > > presented a king or a king's minister with various > > kinds of curry: > > mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly > > sweet, alkaline or > > non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of > > his master, > > thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he > > reaches out for > > that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he > > praises that curry. > > Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my > > master likes > > mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... > > mainly sweet curry... > > alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty > > curry... Today my > > master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for > > non-salty curry, > > or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises > > non-salty curry.' > > As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & > > gifts. Why is > > that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook > > picks up on the > > theme of his own master. > > > > "In the same way, there are cases where a wise, > > experienced, skillful > > monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... > > feelings in & of > > themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental > > qualities in & of > > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > > aside greed & > > distress with reference to the world. As he remains > > thus focused on > > mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind > > becomes concentrated, > > his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that > > fact. As a > > result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here > > & now, together > > with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because > > the wise, > > experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of > > his own mind." > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---------- > > Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-008.html > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" > > wrote: > > > Dear Herman, > > > > > > Please allow me to contribute my opinion here... > > Let me forwarn: > > long, > > > like usual. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: egberdina [mailto:hhofman@d...] > > > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:14 AM > > > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > > > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " > > wasKamma > > > > > > > > > > > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words > > about a wordless > > state. > > > > > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana > > is a time honoured > > > > tradition. > > > > > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits > > of the > > contemplative > > > > life. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is > > a > > dhammastudygroup > > > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > > > > > Herman > > > > > > Words can be very helpful. The tipitakas have > > tons of words that > > help > > > us understand the different realities that are > > rising now. It's > > mind > > > boggling to see how many different ways the > > tipitaka describes the > > word > > > ----- (wisdom), also a wordless state. It's not a > > question of how > > many > > > words there are: it is the question of why we > > read/listen to the > > words > > > for, and why we use those many words. Words are > > two-sided blades: > > > they cut either way. > > > > > > I am not sure if I am right to assume that you > > latter statement > > > (Dissuading...) refers to Robert K's post. > > However, it does seem > > to me > > > that his discussion is along the line of the > > former statement > > > === message truncated === 11583 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a taste of nibbana? Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings DSG, > > What do you think? Can a taste of nibbana be found in any cessation, > such as the cessation of a "round" of breath, in and out, or the > cessation of a feeling, a thought, an impulse, or a sensory sensation? Hmm, interesting. (Of course I believe the best way to try to answer this is by reference to the texts.) Nibbana is said to be cessation (extinction) in 2 respects: (1) at the moment of attainment, it is the cessation of all defilements, and (2) at the death of the arahant, it is the cessation of the 5 khandhas. In (1) above, cessation seems to be the equivalent of eradication, while in (2) it seems to mean that the last falling away is not followed by any subsequent arising, as is normally the case. I'm not sure that experiencing the mundane kinds of 'cessation' you mention would give any taste of these rather special modes of cessation. (Sorry is that's discouraging!) My best try. Jon From Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_n.htm "Nibbána, (Sanskrit nirvána): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). ... The 2 aspects of Nibbána are: (1) The full extinction of defilements (kilesa-parinibbána), also called sa-upádi-sesa-nibbána, i.e. 'Nibbána with the groups of existence still remaining'. This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect holiness. (2) The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha-parinibbána), also called an-upádi-sesa-nibbána, i.e. 'Nibbána without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat." 11584 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they really > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object of > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And if the > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object would > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be *conceptualising > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is bound > up with akusala. > > ____________ Dear Jon, I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced not as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). best wishes robert 11585 From: Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/1/02 9:43:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Aha. Gotcha! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Uh, oh! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > No, seriously, there is no trap being laid here. I just thought it better > to go step by step. > > So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly > with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other > important ingredient in the mix, Howard). > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I said was the following, Jon: "I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there be a strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved." Now, Jon, saying that there *could* be a strong sense of self and there *could* also be strong craving involved, is a far cry from saying "whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an idea of self or craving." In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an ongoing concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively free of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. In fact, this is, as I see it, the purpose of Right Concentration, which is defined again and again in the suttas as the attaining of the first four jhanas. In any case, Jon, the Buddha never taught anyone to just wait until *somehow* conditions arose for wisdom to appear. The Buddha taught the conscious, deliberate, and determined practice of right behavior, right meditation (including both the cultivation of calm and insight), and wisdom (at the intellectual level, by study of the dhamma, and at the ultimate level as a consequence of all the rest). ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they really > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The sense of self disappears only with the attainment of complete enlightenment. But dhammas can come to be known as they are, that is by wisdom, as a consequence of a combination of right behavior, meditation, and right understanding, and mindfulness can be developed while one is still a worldling. If that were not so, there would be no escape from samsara, and the Buddha's teaching would be a fraud. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object of > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My *experience* is that this is just not so. When concentration, calm, and mindfulness are made very strong by extended practice, one *can* see dhammas directly, and not through the mediation of concept, and their impermanence and insubstantiality become clear. In fact, it is amazing at times that things in reality are not at all what they seem to be through the mediation of concepts. It is definitely possible to see that "our world" is one big conceptual magic show. It *is* possible to see through the trickery! (But not by just waiting for conditions to "somehow" arise, and not by just *reading* about the way things really are.) -------------------------------------------------------------- And if the> > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object would > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be *conceptualising > about dhammas*. > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And you know this pessimistic "fact" how? ------------------------------------------------------------- All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala> > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is bound > up with akusala. > > I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect moments > of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of kusala, > particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. > > I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. > > Jon > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11586 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 1:15am Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast -Dear Frank, The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the Patisambhidhimagga (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of this sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 Catukkanipata -Rohitassavaggo (9)Hallucinations Brethren there are these four hallucination of perception, of thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, to say that there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to say that there is happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of peraception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul in soullessness is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to say that there is purity in impurity is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, brethren, are.the four hallucinations. Brethren, there are also these four kinds of clear-sight in perception, thiniking and views. What are the four?Brethren, to say that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: in sorrow, no soul in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are the four kinds of clearsight in perception, thinking and views. They who in change discern the permanent, And bliss in what is woe, and see the self In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- They wander on the path of wrongful view. Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* Back to the round of birth and death they go. But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see The transient as transient, and woe As being woe, and what is selfless see As selfless, as impure what is impure- Thus they have woe transcended by Right View best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > Hi Kom, > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > That is a great sutta. And it also supports my > point. Notice how stages of enlightenment are > described qualitatively, not shrink wrapped into > perfectly delineated independent factors of aggregates > that confirm stages. > > > Even if we don't > > understand why > > the categorization, I think we should be study the > > texts > > carefully before making a decision that one > > shouldn't be in > > the same group as the other. > > No need for anyone to get upset. I'm not proposing > we revise the tipitaka and make it the 3 vipallasas. > All I'm saying is the 4th vipallasa is a derivative of > the other 3, and doesn't really seem to belong in the > group. For example, in the list: > > 1) coconut > 2) soy bean > 3) cilantro > 4) coconut curried tofu and rice > > Which item seems out of place? > > If the commentators had come up with a list of second > order vipallasas, separate from the primary 3, then > that would make more sense to me. > > -fk > > 11587 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 3:09am Subject: Contemplating death Dear All, Hope this doesn't seem too morbid, I have found it strangely comforting over the last week or so, helped get things in perspective. Unfortunately I don't have all the references. If anyone does, I'd appreciate being told. metta, Christine CONTEMPLATING DEATH Nowadays, according to a world record, about 200,000 people die, on average, every day. Apparently about 70 million people die every year. We are not used to contemplate death or come to terms with it. What we usually do is to avoid it and live as if we were never going to die. As long as there is fear of death, life itself is not being lived to its fullest and at its best. So one of the very fundamental reasons for contemplating death, for making this reality fully conscious, is that of overcoming fear. The contemplation of death is not for making us depressed or morbid; it is rather for the purpose of helping to free ourselves from fear. Contemplation of death will change the way we live and our attitudes towards life. The values that we have in life will change quite drastically once we stop living as if we are going to live forever, and we will start living in a quite different way. (Buddhanet.net) Seeing with wisdom the end of life in others and comparing this life to a lamp kept in a windy place, one should meditate on death. Just as the world beings who once enjoyed great prosperity will die, even so one day will I die too. Death will indeed come to me. This death has come along with birth. Therefore, like an executioner, death always seeks an opportunity to destroy. Life, without halting for a moment, and ever keen on moving, runs like the sun that hastens to set after its rise. This life comes to an end like a streak of lightening, a bubble of water, a dew drop on a leaf, or a line drawn on water. Like an enemy intent on killing, death can never be avoided. If death could come in an instant to the Buddhas endowed with great glory, prowess, merits, supernormal powers and wisdom, what could be said of me? Dying every instant, at one point I shall die in the blink of an eye, for want of food, or through internal ailments or through external injuries. Uncertain is my life Certain is my death Inevitable is death for me my life has death as its end my life is indeed unsure my death is sure Not long alas this body on the earth will lie rejected, void of consiousness useless like a rotten log All beings have died are dying will die In the same way I too will die not for me of this there doubt All formations are transient when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity All formations are suffering when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity All phenomena are non-self when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity Dhammapada: 286 "Here shall I dwell in the season of rains, and here in winter and summer"; thus thinks the fool, but he does not think of death. 287 For death carries away the man whose mind is self-satisfied with his children and his flocks, even as a torrent carries away a sleeping village. 288 Neither father, sons nor one's relations can stop the King of Death. When he comes with all his power, a man's relations cannot save him. 289 A man who is virtuous and wise understands the meaning of this, and swiftly strives with all his might to clear a path to Nirvana. Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57 "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.'... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.'... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.'... "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'... "These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. May this realization spur me on to put aside useless regrets, and live each day with compassion for myself and others, with kindness towards myself and others, with joy in the achievements of myself and others, and with even-mindedness in all things 11588 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 3:11am Subject: correction "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma ---Where I said "Corruptions abandoned is enlightenment" I may have been too narrow (not sure) as the commentary seems to be indicating either mundane or supramundane jhana here. robert h dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Group, > There are said to be numerous routes to nibbana. Sometimes the > commentaries expand these into the thousands but they are grouped > under three main types: > 1. Those who use insight preceeded by samatha. They are masters of > jhana and develop insight based on Jhana. > 2. Those who develop insight in conjunction with samatha. > 3. Those who develop insight alone . (But at the moment of attaining > nibbana they of course attain supermundane jhana). They thus also > have samatha finally. > > I think the Suda sutta (samyutta nikaya mahavagga p1634 Bodhi)can be > referring to any of these in that it says "While he dwells > contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become > concentrated, his corruptions are not abandoned, he does not pick up > that sign.." > Corruptions abandoned is enlightenment and the sign can be either > that of concentration of insight. > The commentary to this phrase is explained in Bodhi's note to the > sutta. He refers to 'Cittasa nimmittan gahessati' (pick up the sign) > that this is explained by the commentary to ANIII 423 13 'cittassa > nimittan ti samadhi vipassanacittasa nimittam, > samadhivipassanakaram': sign of the mind; sign of concentration OR > insight, the mode of concentration OR insight. > > > Anyaway it is good to keep in mind the various ways of development as > some suttas stress samadhi and others stress insight. I think the > satipatthana sutta covers all. > best wishes > robert > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > > Hello Kom and all, > > > > > > I am interested to know how people understand the > > > following discourse. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is > > ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, > > he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is > > preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus > > concentration is not focused, and the practice is > > unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as > > meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of > > the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not > > apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness > > fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by > > that particular hindrance(s). > > > > > > -fk > > > > > > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 11589 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 4:05am Subject: Kilesas (Defilements) Dear All, After reading a little on this topic, maybe I've misunderstood the seriousness of kilesas. They seem to be a little more dangerous than an individual idiosyncracy, or bad habit...a little more than a harmless tendency to react in a certain way. The description "baneful influence" certainly catches the attention..... Christine "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are just tacked onto oneself somehow. They are extremely important and are very deep in the heart. It is just these kilesas that cause all the trouble in the world - nothing else. Atomic bombs don't let themselves off, they require people to do so; bullets are not fired from guns without people behind them; and what is behind each person is his own kilesas all the time. So the whole trouble in the world springs from these kilesas, which are quite subtle, extremely resourceful and ever-present. They are resourceful because they dwell there in each person's own heart (or citta), which they usurp. They use its inherent cleverness to further their own ends. The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any one time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so they are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person is almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are there and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under the baneful influence of kilesas." http://www.abm.ndirect.co.uk/fsn/36/wisdom.html 11590 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Hi Frank, Thank you for responding. It helps me understand the discourse better. Regards, Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Hello Kom and all, > > > > I am interested to know how people understand the > > following discourse. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > I interpret it as even though the unsuccessful monk is > ardent, intent on becoming concentrated and mindful, > he is not mindful of the particular hindrance that is > preventing his mindfulness from being alert, and thus > concentration is not focused, and the practice is > unsuccessful. The analogy with the cook I see as > meaning the meditator does not recognize the flavor of > the day, or the hindrance of the moment, and does not > apply the proper antidote, and instead mindfulness > fails to prevent the mind from being dragged along by > that particular hindrance(s). > > > -fk > > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.8 > > Suda Sutta [snip] 11591 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Jon, Is nama permanent or impermanent? Regards, Victor > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, because > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as either > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual grasp > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in number. > > Jon 11592 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 5, no. 3 Hi Nina, What are the accumulated conditions for the arising of mindfulness? What are the right conditions for the realities to arise? Regards, Victor India Ch 5, no 3 Listening to the Dhamma and considering what we heard can condition the arising of sati. It depends on someone¹s accumulated inclinations how deeply he will consider what he hears. Nobody can control the arising of mindfulness, it all depends on the accumulated conditions for it. Nobody can control the object of mindfulness either. As we were often reminded: nobody can choose to see, nobody can choose to hear, nobody can choose to have sati, these realities arise when there are the right conditions. We may try to have conditions as a support for paññå but this is motivated by clinging to the concept of self. Acharn Sujin stressed that we need more understanding of the truth of non-self as a firm foundation that can condition the arising of right awareness. She said: ³When a characteristic of a reality appears, do we just remember the name of that reality, or is there sati arising because of its own conditions? A reality such as seeing may appear, but it appears for a very short time, and then it falls away. Sati arises for a very short moment and then it falls away. Sati that is aware without trying to focus on a reality is right awareness. But the clinging to the concept of self comes in between all the time. It is very difficult to become detached from it. Gradually we can become familiar with the different characteristics that appear.² Acharn Sujin explained many times how important it is to be sincere as to one's own development. We should realize when there is satipatthåna and when there is not, we should realize what we understand already and what not yet. She stressed that it is the task of sati to be mindful of realities, not our task. If we deeply consider this, we shall be less inclined to think of sati with attachment, or to try to induce sati. By listening to the Dhamma and considering what we hear, right understanding of the way to develop satipatthåna grows, and thus, conditions are gradually accumulated for the arising of sati of satipatthåna. When sati of satipatthåna arises and is aware of a characteristic, paññå can understand what sati is and in this way the difference can be discerned between the moment that there is sati and the moment that there is forgetfulness of realities. When sati is mindful of a reality, paññå, understanding of that characteristic, can gradually develop. Acharn Sujin reminded us many times that we should have no expectations with regard to the arising of sati and paññå: ³One can live happily with regard to the development of understanding, and this can be very natural. If there is very little paññå, one sees one¹s own accumulations and one knows that one cannot have what has not been accumulated. Someone may dislike his accumulations, but if there is more understanding he can take life easy. When paññå arises there are no expectations, the function of paññå is detachment. If there is not enough understanding and there is desire for sati and paññå, they cannot arise. We should know, if there is interest to listen, that it is not self who has an interest, but that it arises because of conditions.² 11593 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Christine There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the URL handy, but follow this: Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan teachings. Examples below: " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body will lie upon the ground. " "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " etc. (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) Best wishes Lucy 11594 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 9:18am Subject: Re: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara is more of a synopsis. -fk --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -Dear Frank, > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > Patisambhidhimagga > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > this sutta in > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > Catukkanipata > -Rohitassavaggo > (9)Hallucinations > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > perception, of > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > to say that > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > hallucination of > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > say that there is > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > peraception, of thinking > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > in soullessness > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > views. Brethren, > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > hallucination of > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > brethren, are.the > four hallucinations. > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > clear-sight in > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > four?Brethren, to say > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > in sorrow, no soul > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > the four kinds of > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > The transient as transient, and woe > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > best wishes > robert > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > wrote: > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > > > > That is a great sutta. And it also supports my > > point. Notice how stages of enlightenment are > > described qualitatively, not shrink wrapped into > > perfectly delineated independent factors of > aggregates > > that confirm stages. > > > > > Even if we don't > > > understand why > > > the categorization, I think we should be study > the > > > texts > > > carefully before making a decision that one > > > shouldn't be in > > > the same group as the other. > > > > No need for anyone to get upset. I'm not > proposing > > we revise the tipitaka and make it the 3 > vipallasas. > > All I'm saying is the 4th vipallasa is a > derivative of > > the other 3, and doesn't really seem to belong in > the > > group. For example, in the list: > > > > 1) coconut > > 2) soy bean > > 3) cilantro > > 4) coconut curried tofu and rice > > > > Which item seems out of place? > > > > If the commentators had come up with a list of > second > > order vipallasas, separate from the primary 3, > then > > that would make more sense to me. > > > > -fk > > > > 11595 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Dear Jon and Larry (beginner's corner questions) From: "Jonothan Abbott" > I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are saying, but some people > consider that rupas are 'more real' than namas. > OK, what then do you have to say to some people who consider that namas are the only 'real' thing (meaning : perceived rupa is citta) ? Not meaning that there is no rupa, but meaning that what I see etc. as rupa is not rupa. > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, because > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. This is a good point Jon. I wonder about superimposing concepts on experience "because it is something described in the texts" - wouldn't the product be self-suggestion rather than realization? Best wishes Lucy 11596 From: Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Great Stuff Lucy! 11597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ayatanas revisited Dear Sarah, I appreciated very much your post on ayatanas, especially the reminders that they should be understood just now when there is the meeting of visible object, eyesense and seeing, sound, earsense and hearing, etc. We tend to count how many cittas are manayatana, mind-base, we want to understand all intellectually, and forget what is most important. I pasted below your reminders, thank you very much. Nina. op 01-03-2002 08:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > When we read about ayatanas, I understand it is the importance of the > meeting point of the various phenomena that is being stressed. Hence when > there is the meeting of visible object, eye base and seeing consciousness, > they are actuated (aayananti) and so on. I think they help us to > understand that this moment is conditioned in a split-second and then > passes away. We learn more about the conditioned nature of all realities > > I asked about a few points when we were in Bangkok that you’d all been > discussing. As I recollect, the ayatanas help us understand how this > moment is conditioned ‘in a split second’ and passes away.. We cannot say > that ayatanas are another way of classifying namas and rupas. Mind base > refers to all cittas, including lokuttara and all bhavanga cittas strictly > speaking. However, manayatana ‘doesn’t usually refer to bhavanga cittas > because ‘who knows these?’’ Cetasikas are classified as external mind > objects (dhammayatana), but not pannatti (concepts) which of course are > not real. > > We can only talk about eyebase (cakkayatana) at this moment of seeing > (cakkhuvinnana) and other experiences through this doorway.It is only at > this meeting (as we read in the Vism quote above) that eye sense and > visible object have sabhava. > > ********** > “...And the mind base, when classified according to profitable, > unprofitable, resultant, and functional consciousness, is of eighty-nine > inds or of one hundred and twenty-one kinds, but it is of infinite variety > when classified according to physical basis, progress, and so on. The > visible data, sound, odour and flavour bases are of infinite variety when > classified according to similarity, condition, and so on.. > ********** > This really reminds me of the complexity of conditions and the infinite > variety of resulting phenomena. Categories and numbers are only used to > help us understand these phenomena better, I think. > 11598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 0:25pm Subject: India Ch 5, no 4 India Ch 5, no 4 When we were in Sarnath, the Head Monk, the Ven. Kahawatte Sri Sumedha, showed us great kindness and hospitality, inviting us to use his office for Dhamma discussions, and later on arranging for a ³high tea² to be offered to us. While we were sitting at a long table in his office we heard every now and then the call of a bird that was kept there. When we hear sound, almost immediately we think of a concept. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts, thinking arises naturally and it is also a kind of nåma. When we hear a bird¹s call or the voices of people it is natural to think of concepts, of mental images we have of animals and people. However, we do not think all the time, there are also other realities such as hearing, seeing or experiencing hardness. They arise and fall away in splitseconds, but we do not realize this and we remember concepts on account of what was perceived. Nåma and rúpa are not concepts, they are not imaginary, but they are dhammas each with their own characteristic. When a characteristic of nåma or rúpa appears, sati can be aware of them without thinking of their names. During our journey Acharn Sujin stressed often that no names or words are needed when there is awareness of characteristics of realities. This is a reminder for us, since we are so used to think in words about realities instead of being directly aware of them. She explained: ³Awareness should be natural; it just follows the moment of experiencing an object by ³studying² it with awareness, so that there is a beginning of understanding, instead of just thinking in words. Without thinking in words there can be right awareness of a reality, and awareness falls away. There should be no expectation of other moments of awareness.² Listening to Acharn Sujin¹s explanations is a condition for more understanding of paramattha dhammas, such as hearing and sound. Intellectual understanding of them is a foundation for the arising of direct awareness, provided we do not obstruct the arising of satipatthåna by wishing to have sati. When sound appears there must be the nåma which hears that sound, but paññå has to be developed so that it clearly understands nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. Acharn Sujin explained: ³ Rúpa cannot experience anything and nåma is quite different from rúpa. When sati of satipatthåna arises it is aware of only one characteristic at a time, for example of sound. There is nobody who hears, there is nothing else but sound and hearing that hears the sound. There is nobody at all, nowhere. If there is an idea of somewhere, there is thinking of some place, memory of place and people, of me, of the whole body. When understanding of sound is developed, it is just sound. People try to focus, to concentrate with the idea of self. Sound is appearing and citta experiences it, there are only these realities. There is nobody in this room. This can be directly experienced by gradually developing right understanding and this is the right Path.² 11599 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Lucy, Enjoyed your quotes and the article. Death is death, and usually doesn't come in a serene or beautiful form. The blood-curdling verses don't have as much impact on me personally as do your last two verses. (Though many would find it the other way around.) And I think with contemplation, the seed words have to hold the attention. The modern and efficient hospitals with strong mind-numbing palliative drugs, and the modern efficient funeral processes tend to take the power out of the old explicit descriptions and make them seem a little like Grimms fairy tales or tales round the camp-fire; Sanitary modern life hides the power and relentless inevitability of death, and almost hides the actual fact that death is occurring everywhere, every moment. As a result of the whole world being so death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people. (If they have time for a thought, it's usually along the lines of 'Can't be me, not just yet! Another few months.....I haven't finished everything yet'.....) But I found the last two verses you quote captivating .......and you end with etc! Can you provide a link, or other direction please? And perhaps tell me what the 'three levels' and the 'three worlds' are? A simplistic heaven, earth, hell model of existence perhaps? I'm not yet familiar with Tibetan teachings, always seemed too difficult to start........ Maybe it's because we have been experiencing a few storms lately, but I loved "In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death". AND "The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space." (This makes 'my' life seem so brief, unimportant, ephemeral, and forgetable.) Thanks, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine > > There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" > (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the > URL handy, but follow this: > Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel > > Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to > all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the > opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you > want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan > teachings. Examples below: > > " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming > staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly > forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. > Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We > shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be > able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in > saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " > > "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, > and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and > right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of > crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body > will lie upon the ground. " > > "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° > In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. > Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons > Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " > > "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. > The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. > The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. > Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, > As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " > > etc. > > (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) > > Best wishes > Lucy