12400 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/3/02 7:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > If we > > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and > rupas, and no > > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one > of the > > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there > was seen to > > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because > it was > > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > > +++++++++++++ > > Dear Howard, > In the situation you describe above which namas would be present? > Wouldn't there be citta rooted in dosa (anger or hatred). And that > level of dosamula citta - a reality - is of the degree that can > result in rebirth in a plane where all vipaka (momentary namas) are > unpleasant and undesirable (hell in conventional terms). > Instead of making one think that no harm could be done by killing > distinguishing reality from concept, the more it is known, makes one > realise that even the slightest illdeed is dangerous. > best wishes > robert > ============================== But I'm not thinking about the harm done to oneself. I'm thinking about the harm done to the person who has been murdered. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12401 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Howard, When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking that object, the concept of a person who is somehow obstructive to "us", another concept, that anger develops. That anger might develop to the extent that one 'puts a sword through the person'. The Buddha said that one protects others by protecting ourself. I think we cannot control what others do but by understanding concept and reality we are leaning towards the insight that Bahiya gained when he knew 'In the seen is merely what is seen; in the heard is merely what is heard; in the sensed is merely what is sensed; in the cognized is merely what is cognized'. best wishes robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 7:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > If we > > > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and > > rupas, and no > > > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one > > of the > > > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there > > was seen to > > > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because > > it was > > > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > > > +++++++++++++ > > > > Dear Howard, > > In the situation you describe above which namas would be present? > > Wouldn't there be citta rooted in dosa (anger or hatred). And that > > level of dosamula citta - a reality - is of the degree that can > > result in rebirth in a plane where all vipaka (momentary namas) are > > unpleasant and undesirable (hell in conventional terms). > > Instead of making one think that no harm could be done by killing > > distinguishing reality from concept, the more it is known, makes one > > realise that even the slightest illdeed is dangerous. > > best wishes > > robert > > > ============================== > But I'm not thinking about the harm done to oneself. I'm thinking > about the harm done to the person who has been murdered. > > With metta, > Howard 12402 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 6:08am Subject: Definition of Buddhism Dear Dhamma Study Group members, Would you kindly help me out. A well-known author needs a concise definition (a paragraph-3-4 sentences) of Buddhism for a book she is writing. The definition should be clear and written for an audience totally ignorant of Buddhism and Pali, etc. While many good definitions exist in many sources I thought that you would be the best qualified to write such a defintion. However, I have been trying and found it quite difficult to express my understanding of dhamma in terms that would not confuse or misguide someone having little or no knowledge of it. Anumodhana for taking the time to help my friend out with this. Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 12403 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) --- Dear Howard, Your concerns about seeing everything as nama and rupa and how this might lead to moral decay have been addressed somewhat in the texts. If one focuses on nama and rupa as simply objects and is not aware of their conditioned and conditioning nature then it is possible to go to an extreme. The visuddh: xvii, 313 The production of only formations ect and no others with ignornace as the respective reasons [ie, only namas and rupas] is called the method of ineluctable regularity. One who sees this rightly abandons the no-cause view and the moral-inefficacy -of-action view by understanding how fruit accords with condition.One who sees it wrongly..clings to no cause view and to the doctrine of fatalism" best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Howard, > When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did > that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking > that object, the concept of a person who is somehow obstructive > to "us", another concept, that anger develops. That anger might > develop to the extent that one 'puts a sword through the person'. > > The Buddha said that one protects others by protecting ourself. I > think we cannot control what others do but by understanding concept > and reality we are leaning towards the insight that Bahiya gained > when he knew 'In the seen is merely what is seen; in the heard is > merely what is heard; in the sensed is merely what is sensed; in the > cognized is merely what is cognized'. > best wishes > robert > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 4/3/02 7:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: 12404 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Howard, I think I will add some random information here, not addressing your concern (as Robert may have done that). 1) I think it is important to clearly separate concept from realities from the standpoint that I believe that only realities can be objects of satipatthana. I can keep thinking by conventional observation (non-satipathana) that "feeling is impermanent". Although this thinking of conceptual thought may be kusala, it doesn't ultimately lead to nibbana until there is sati and panna rising to realize the actual chararacteristics of feeling (and eventually, the impermanence of feeling). From the detailed explanation of the different suttas given by the abhiddhamma, separating the two is one of the most essential fundamental first step because of the reason above. A person who doesn't understand the separation between the two doesn't usually understand why someone would say that there is no person and there is no being (with all the caveats that Robert has given). The person also cannot develop satipatthana as they do not know what is/what isn't satipatthana (as one cannot develop jhana if one doesn't know the actual differences between kusala and akusala). 2) If you notice, the brahmavihara---metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha [loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and non-biased toward akusala]---all have concepts as their objects. Clearly, concepts have more values than providing frameworks to communicate and being shortcuts to talking about realities. Some kusala cannot be develop without them. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:37 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > Hi, Kom (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 2:19:57 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > tikmok0@f... writes: > > > > Just a little addendum... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:tikmok0@f...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:18 PM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > > > > > > > > > > Some rupas are quite independent of the > cittas. A corpse > > > (or a rock!) exists independently of the cittas. > > > > > > > But nothing appears (is known) without cittas! > > > > kom > > > ============================= > Also - how can a corpse or rock exist > independently of cittas when a > corpse or rock is just a *concept*? (Right Sarah? ;-) > While we're on that topic, it would seem > that people in the Middle > East are being wounded and killed at this very > moment by concepts, namely > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being > wounded - it's only > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes > creating other concepts, corpses! A > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not > really a tragedy, right? (Note: > Please see my disclaimer about this paragraph at > the end of this post.) > Or is that not right? It seems to me that > it is not right. It seems to > me that the analysis of dhammas into so-called > "realities" and "concepts" > with nothing further said is simplistic to the > extent of being misleading and > hiding what is true. Well grounded concepts are > thoughts and thought patterns > which serve as shortcuts, as mental abbreviations > into which huge amounts of > genuine information is packed. When such a > concept is correctly superimposed > via sa~n~na on our direct experience, it provides > knowledge of conditionality > .. in the form of "When this is experienced, that > will be experienced", such > as "When the experience expressed as 'being hit > by a sharp object' occurs, > the experience of severe pain follows." Our > conceptual knowledge is an > abbreviation for large amounts of direct > experiential knowledge, but is > "translatable" into direct, experiential terms > only with great difficulty. > Packed into a piece of conceptual knowledge are a > multitude of direct > experiences and observed relations holding among > them, and that packing > allows for a predictive capability which would be > absent without it. If we > are *overcome* by the realization that there are > only namas and rupas, and no > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an > error similar to one of the > then-existing philosophies criticized by the > Buddha wherein there was seen to > be no real harm done when putting a sword through > a person, because it was > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > In my second paragraph of this post, I > write in an extreme Jonathan > Swift manner to make a point. That point is that > we should be careful not to > get carried away by our very own concepts of > "concept" and "reality" to the > extent of losing sight of and even denying > conventional reality, for yes, > that is a kind of "reality" as well, and > deprecating that reality *beyond a > certain degree* can lead to error. At least > that's how I see it. > > With metta, > Howard 12405 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/3/02 10:12:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Dear Howard, > Your concerns about seeing everything as nama and rupa and how this > might lead to moral decay have been addressed somewhat in the texts. > If one focuses on nama and rupa as simply objects and is not aware of > their conditioned and conditioning nature then it is possible to go > to an extreme. The visuddh: xvii, 313 The production of only > formations ect and no others with ignornace as the respective reasons > [ie, only namas and rupas] is called the method of ineluctable > regularity. One who sees this rightly abandons the no-cause view and > the moral-inefficacy -of-action view by understanding how fruit > accords with condition.One who sees it wrongly..clings to no cause > view and to the doctrine of fatalism" > > best wishes > robert > ======================== No disagreement here. That all there is, ultimately, is a flow of conditioned, impersonal, and impermanent phenomena is, from my perspective, exactly so. My only point, and you grasp it properly, is that there is a danger in the development of a fatalistic view, and worse, of an incompassionate view. (This, perhaps, is one reason why Mahayana "harps" on the need for a balance of wisdom and compassion. However, from my perspective, a wisdom that excludes compassion wouldn't be a true or complete wisdom to begin with.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12406 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) It is exactly the idea that there is 'real whole' rock or corpse, which would constitute an entity, that the idea of rupa is there to combat. When a rupa is seen directly, there is no 'corpse' or 'rock', there may be an experience of sighted flesh, smelled rotting, hardness [for rock], etc. Each of these experiences is a rupa; when one says: 'Hmmmm, I smell rotting, must be a corpse', you have jumped from rupa to concept and the rupa is absolutely lost. I think Buddha's stand was that one should not make a determination whether there is or is not a 'real rock out there' [a waste of time and makes people crazy] but rather use concepts of rock and corpse for conventional activity, use rupa and nama distinguished clearly for enlightenment. Robert Ep. ========= --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Kom (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 2:19:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > tikmok0@f... writes: > > > > Just a little addendum... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:tikmok0@f...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:18 PM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > > > > > > > > > > Some rupas are quite independent of the cittas. A corpse > > > (or a rock!) exists independently of the cittas. > > > > > > > But nothing appears (is known) without cittas! > > > > kom > > > ============================= > Also - how can a corpse or rock exist independently of cittas when a > corpse or rock is just a *concept*? (Right Sarah? ;-) > While we're on that topic, it would seem that people in the Middle > East are being wounded and killed at this very moment by concepts, namely > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being wounded - it's only > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes creating other concepts, corpses! A > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not really a tragedy, right? (Note: > Please see my disclaimer about this paragraph at the end of this post.) > Or is that not right? It seems to me that it is not right. It seems to > me that the analysis of dhammas into so-called "realities" and "concepts" > with nothing further said is simplistic to the extent of being misleading and > hiding what is true. Well grounded concepts are thoughts and thought patterns > which serve as shortcuts, as mental abbreviations into which huge amounts of > genuine information is packed. When such a concept is correctly superimposed > via sa~n~na on our direct experience, it provides knowledge of conditionality > .. in the form of "When this is experienced, that will be experienced", such > as "When the experience expressed as 'being hit by a sharp object' occurs, > the experience of severe pain follows." Our conceptual knowledge is an > abbreviation for large amounts of direct experiential knowledge, but is > "translatable" into direct, experiential terms only with great difficulty. > Packed into a piece of conceptual knowledge are a multitude of direct > experiences and observed relations holding among them, and that packing > allows for a predictive capability which would be absent without it. If we > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and rupas, and no > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one of the > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there was seen to > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because it was > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > In my second paragraph of this post, I write in an extreme Jonathan > Swift manner to make a point. That point is that we should be careful not to > get carried away by our very own concepts of "concept" and "reality" to the > extent of losing sight of and even denying conventional reality, for yes, > that is a kind of "reality" as well, and deprecating that reality *beyond a > certain degree* can lead to error. At least that's how I see it. > > With metta, > Howard 12407 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 It seems clear from this that many situations are not the results of kamma but merely of arisen conditions that affect physical situations. however, is it not true that one finding themselves in the country when they are used to the desert would itself be caused by kammic causes? Robert Ep. == --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2: > > Co. Siivakasutta, Part 2. (I am sure to have made mistakes) > > saamampi kho etanti ta.m ta.m pittavikaara.m disvaa attanaapi eta.m > veditabba.m. saccasammatanti bhuutasammata.m. > > N: < Also by one1s own experience indeed this (can be known)>, meaning: when > he has seen this change of the bile he should also know this by his own > experience. , meaning: it is accepted as what has > happened. > > lokopi hissa sariire sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m disvaa ``pittamassa > kupita''nti jaanaati. > > N: Also people in the world, when they have noticed in the body a change in > appearance of the bile that has an outburst, etc. they know, disturbed.> > > tasmaati yasmaa saama~nca vidita.m lokassa ca saccasammata.m atidhaavanti, > tasmaa. semhasamu.t.thaanaadiisupi eseva nayo. > > N: , in as far as it is known by one1s own experience and as it > is agreed upon in the world, therefore, they go too far. The same method > goes for feelings arisen because of phlegm, and so on. > > ettha pana sannipaatikaaniiti ti.n.nampi pittaadiina.m kopena > samu.t.thitaani. utupari.naamajaaniiti visabhaagaututo jaataani. > > N: Here again, as to the words < arisen because of the union of bodily > humours>, also with reference to the (other of the) three factors of bile, > etc. , they have originated from anger. As to the words, < arisen because of > change of climate>, they have arisen because of climate that is not > ordinary. > > ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati, > anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi > utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama. > > N: For those who live in the desert a climate that is not ordinary (to them) > arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the > countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in > the desert or also at a seashore with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises > from change of climate originates from (all ) that. > > visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya > carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani. > > N: , by carrying a heavy load or by > pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time, > who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on, that > means, arisen because of adverse behaviour. > > ****** > > 12408 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Dear Christine, As far as 'actual' social issues [in the conventional sense, as opposed to list photo issues -- not that that is not important, I know it is!!!! -- didn't we get your permission before posting your photo? I thought we did......] I practice the following: 1/ treat social issues with as much compassion as possible; give clothes or food or money to the poor, protest injustice, eg, the occupation of Tibet in my view; and be kind to others, practicing metta as much as possible; this is conventional action that feels correct for me; 2/ practice seeing all things, including the social actions I practice myself, as empty of entity and ultimate meaning. That paradox is what a spiritual person has to live with while on this planet. I can't imagine that anyone here would hit someone, thinking that they are striking 'nothingness' anymore than they would walk past a crying child and refuse to pick it up. But while picking up the child, it is probably correct practice, at least from my view, to see the child as a divine illusion. When I interact with my child, I do not try to stop all of the wonderful human responses that I have in relation to her. It would be horrendous to do so. But I also have to distinguish what I can consider to be my daughter's reality, which is 'momentary', and the illusion, which is all the images I have attached to that momentary reality. The lucky fact is that the true momentary reality is far more beautiful than my concepts and images, and relating to her that way is real relating. The other way is fantasy. Robert ============ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Hint for Moderators: n.b. - the dhamma related focus in the following > post is wise attention, realities, the present moment, desire, > clinging, no-control, anatta, kamma-vipaka, papanca, dukkha, vedana, > compassion, ignorance -(must be in there somewhere, it's in > everything else), probably wrong view, + I'm sure that the > paticcasamupadda could have been worked into this but unfortunately > I had too little time........ > This is a serious issue and I hope you will all give it your earnest > attention and consideration. > I'm wondering what others think of Social Justice issues, > particularly Inequity and Imbalance of Power, within this list. > Far be it from me to hark back to old issues - there is nothing > worse than someone who 'clings' to past occurrences, exaggerates them > out of all proportion, maybe even ornaments the truth and fabricates > (papanca-izes?) additional variations. > However, the reality is that 'Some of Us' were (or at least > representations of us were) posted to the Photos section by Others > (no-control), and, 'Others of Us' willingly exposed ourselves to the > gaze of 'Who knows Whom' - [perhaps 'why this is so' is a Ph. D. > thesis in itself with an Appendix 1 exploring issues > surrounding "Whether the list of all members names should be made > available to other members"?] > I seem to spend half my life reading and 'inwardly digesting' > contributions on dsg (is this still papanca or have I moved on > through exaggeration to delusion?) - I feel it would add to the > ambience at this 'mealtime' if I could visualise each of the > contributors as they really are. (I'm sure this involves nama and > rupa). > And what is my point exactly,I hear you ask? Well, whether you did > or not, I'll tell you....... > Azita, , Bhante D., Jaran, KenH , KKT, KenO, Larry, LaymanJohn, Lucy, > Manji., Mike B, Michael N, Purnomo, Ranil, Stigan, Suan, Yulia and > other posters who may have momentarily escaped my notice, and ALL > lurkers........inserting passionate and possibly irrelevant appeal---- > ->> How can you let 'Some of Us' and 'Others of Us' carry All the > Burden of being "Viewed"? Isn't there something in the buddhist idea > of compassionately sharing the tribulations of life? Do you want to > be 'continually admonished' (nicer word than nagged) about this? > Remember Submission is the ultimate virtue {oops! I'm wandering off > onto a different spiritual path here}. > > I hope you don't feel I'm harassing, intimidating or embarrassing > you, because as I've recently been learning, Ultimately "there is no- > one to be harassed, intimidated or embarrassed; and there is no-one > who does the harassing, intimidating or embarrassing." > > metta, > Christine 12409 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/3/02 12:26:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > It is exactly the idea that there is 'real whole' rock or corpse, which > would > constitute an entity, that the idea of rupa is there to combat. When a > rupa is > seen directly, there is no 'corpse' or 'rock', there may be an experience > of > sighted flesh, smelled rotting, hardness [for rock], etc. Each of these > experiences is a rupa; when one says: 'Hmmmm, I smell rotting, must be a > corpse', > you have jumped from rupa to concept and the rupa is absolutely lost. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. I understand that and agree with it. ------------------------------------------- > > I think Buddha's stand was that one should not make a determination whether > there > is or is not a 'real rock out there' [a waste of time and makes people > crazy] but > rather use concepts of rock and corpse for conventional activity, use rupa > and > nama distinguished clearly for enlightenment. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly. But with regard to conventional activity, part of that activity consists of recognizing that those apparent ever-changing, ever-flowing heaps of phenomena that we call "people" surely correspond to nama-rupic flows, just as "we" do, and that pain and heartache occur there too. If I had to choose between wisdom and compassion, a false choice, I would surely choose compassion. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Robert Ep. > > ========= > ================================ With metta, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Kom (and Sarah) - > > > > In a message dated 4/3/02 2:19:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > tikmok0@f... writes: > > > > > > > Just a little addendum... > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:tikmok0@f...] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:18 PM > > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some rupas are quite independent of the cittas. A corpse > > > > (or a rock!) exists independently of the cittas. > > > > > > > > > > But nothing appears (is known) without cittas! > > > > > > kom > > > > > ============================= > > Also - how can a corpse or rock exist independently of cittas when > a > > corpse or rock is just a *concept*? (Right Sarah? ;-) > > While we're on that topic, it would seem that people in the Middle > > > East are being wounded and killed at this very moment by concepts, namely > > > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being wounded - it's only > > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes creating other concepts, > corpses! A > > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not really a tragedy, right? > (Note: > > Please see my disclaimer about this paragraph at the end of this post.) > > Or is that not right? It seems to me that it is not right. It > seems to > > me that the analysis of dhammas into so-called "realities" and "concepts" > > > with nothing further said is simplistic to the extent of being misleading > and > > hiding what is true. Well grounded concepts are thoughts and thought > patterns > > which serve as shortcuts, as mental abbreviations into which huge amounts > of > > genuine information is packed. When such a concept is correctly > superimposed > > via sa~n~na on our direct experience, it provides knowledge of > conditionality > > .. in the form of "When this is experienced, that will be experienced", > such > > as "When the experience expressed as 'being hit by a sharp object' > occurs, > > the experience of severe pain follows." Our conceptual knowledge is an > > abbreviation for large amounts of direct experiential knowledge, but is > > "translatable" into direct, experiential terms only with great > difficulty. > > Packed into a piece of conceptual knowledge are a multitude of direct > > experiences and observed relations holding among them, and that packing > > allows for a predictive capability which would be absent without it. If > we > > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and rupas, > and no > > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one of > the > > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there was > seen to > > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because it > was > > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > > In my second paragraph of this post, I write in an extreme > Jonathan > > Swift manner to make a point. That point is that we should be careful not > to > > get carried away by our very own concepts of "concept" and "reality" to > the > > extent of losing sight of and even denying conventional reality, for yes, > > > that is a kind of "reality" as well, and deprecating that reality *beyond > a > > certain degree* can lead to error. At least that's how I see it. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12410 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/3/02 12:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > It seems clear from this that many situations are not the results of kamma > but > merely of arisen conditions that affect physical situations. however, is > it not > true that one finding themselves in the country when they are used to the > desert > would itself be caused by kammic causes? > > Robert Ep. > ========================== Most likely at least in part, and surely with regard to the *realm* of existence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12411 From: rsoonline Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 0:54pm Subject: Religious Singles Online Religious Singles Online WWW.RELIGIOUSSINGLESONLINE.COM Officially Launched Religious Singles, Inc. is pleased to announce that religioussinglesonline.com is open for business. Religious Singles Online is inaugurating its service by offering 2,000 free one-month memberships to the first 2,000 individual who sign-up. RSO's focus is that segment of the Internet that defines itself as religious in orientation. Historically, one of the most important features of the Internet has been the growth of personal communication options between individuals. The purpose of geographically-based chat rooms and subject-based chat rooms are to meet new people. The purpose of Religious Singles Online is to provide a safe and secure option for Religious singles to meet or search for others without the sometimes ugly or vulgar aspects of unregulated chat rooms. Religious Singles Online is a subscription-based service and offers its users: Profile-based search capabilities Secure system messaging Photo up-load capabilities Come visit us today at www.religioussinglesonline.com 12412 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (1-6) Khandhas (sabhava) Hi Sarah & dsg, I wonder if the pts edition has any more footnote info on this (sabhava). B. Nyanamoli's note is to Vsm VIII 246: "'Dhammas' [means] individual essenses." (refering to a line in a verse) Larry 12413 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Thanks Nina for this reply. A. Sujin's explanation adds some precision but I don't know if it changes my mind. My point was that attachment (for example) is a kind of glue that attaches two concepts, "me" and "something else", coffee for example. If we take the concepts away, what reality does attachment have? Whether or not the glue itself is in any way conceptual, I don't know; but I will have a question about that when we get to sanna. best wishes, Larry 12414 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- > From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > > > Dear Howard, > When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did > that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking Are you saying that only concepts are objects of angers? kom 12415 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Hi Rob Ep (& Christine), --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > As far as 'actual' social issues [in the conventional sense, as opposed > to list > photo issues -- not that that is not important, I know it is!!!! -- > didn't we get > your permission before posting your photo? I thought we did......] I think Christine's message and permission-about-photo and so on was all very tongue-in-cheek (Aussie tongue-in-cheek;-))) and very witty. Now as Album keeper, Rob, you should be encouraging her Public Relations efforts of support. I certainly do. Christine, without getting personal (anatta as you've pointed out), there are always certain members (list below) who don't listen to the mods (no control again) and hopefully they may listen to you instead;-))) Many thanks for your fine wit, Chris and Rob, thanks for your comments too. Hopefully this'll lead to a 'Soring burst' of pix to join Rob K's nice one in Nepal on the 2nd page of the album. (Newbies, on the homepage left side, click on photos) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup Sarah =========== > > And what is my point exactly,I hear you ask? Well, whether you did > > or not, I'll tell you....... > > Azita, , Bhante D., Jaran, KenH , KKT, KenO, Larry, LaymanJohn, Lucy, > > Manji., Mike B, Michael N, Purnomo, Ranil, Stigan, Suan, Yulia and > > other posters who may have momentarily escaped my notice, and ALL > > lurkers........inserting passionate and possibly irrelevant appeal---- > > ->> How can you let 'Some of Us' and 'Others of Us' carry All the > > Burden of being "Viewed"? Isn't there something in the buddhist idea > > of compassionately sharing the tribulations of life? Do you want to > > be 'continually admonished' (nicer word than nagged) about this? > > Remember Submission is the ultimate virtue {oops! I'm wandering off > > onto a different spiritual path here}. > > > > I hope you don't feel I'm harassing, intimidating or embarrassing > > you, because as I've recently been learning, Ultimately "there is no- > > one to be harassed, intimidated or embarrassed; and there is no-one > > who does the harassing, intimidating or embarrassing." 12416 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Nina, I just realized my error. These concepts that are bound-up with lobha,dosa,moha are ditthi (views, a cetasika) and as such are realities. What about alobha, adosa, amoha? I would think they would need some sort of conceptual reference point also. Would that still be wrong view because they are concepts? Larry ----------------- Larry wrote: Thanks Nina for this reply. A. Sujin's explanation adds some precision but I don't know if it changes my mind. My point was that attachment (for example) is a kind of glue that attaches two concepts, "me" and "something else", coffee for example. If we take the concepts away, what reality does attachment have? Whether or not the glue itself is in any way conceptual, I don't know; but I will have a question about that when we get to sanna. best wishes, Larry ----------------- Nina wrote: Dear Larry, you were wonderin whether akusala citta can be a concept. Paramattha dhamma is difficult to understand for all of us. We know in theory: akusala citta is citta paramattha, dosa is cetasika paramattha, but when it appears how is our understanding? I heard recently again on tape about this subject and it was stressed by A. Sujin that we cannot alter paramattha dhammas, we cannot change their characteristics. When we have aversion, the characteristic of aversion cannot be changed into attachment or into something else. Aversion is always aversion, that is its nature, its characteristic. When it appears it manifests its characteristic, we do not doubt about it. The same about hearing. There is hearing now, it cannot be changed into seeing. You do not have to name it, you do not have to think about it, it presents itself already. When touching something, hardness may appear, and it cannot be changed into heat. We can call it the Element of Earth or the rupa that is solidity, but when it presents itself it manifests its own characteristic. We can change the name of a paramattha dhamma but not its charactyeristic. I do not know whether this approach helps you. When we merely think and wonder whether we think about a reality or a concept, or, when we think about a reality whether the paramattha dhamma changes into a concept, we will continue to have doubts. It is helpful to consider what presents itself at this moment. Best wishes from Nina. 12417 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Ooops > too. Hopefully this'll lead to a 'Soring burst' of pix in case anyone's wondering what I was writing in the dark, it was meant to be another Spring burst....... S. 12418 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Ranil, May I clarify your question? If this is wrong please correct me. 1. Why is akusala vipaka citta rootless (without the akusala roots lobha, dosa, moha)? 2. Kusala vipaka citta is either with roots (alobha, adosa, amoha) or without roots. Why is that? Btw a good discussion of this can be found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" published by Buddhist Publication Society. also interested in these answers, Larry ----------------- Ranil wrote: Dear Nina, I think I am having a question in the same line. Big help... *** I have not gone throuh this whole discussion you are having right now. so please forgive me if I am asking an already answered question.*** Anyway... here it goes, in kusal there are two kinds of Vipaka citas. 1. Sa + Hetu = Sahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) 2. A + Hetu = Ahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) Here "Hetu" means loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. and "Sa" means - including "A" means - excluding. So we are having, 8 vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha and 8 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. Buuuuuuuuuutttttttttt, In akusal Only 7 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha are present. That means 7 "A"+Hetu means 7 Ahethuka vipaka citas for Akusal. Now my doubt is, Why Akusal dont have vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. What happend to that part? Thank you so much..... ~with meththa Ranil 12419 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 6:37pm Subject: Citta and continuity --- Hi group, Just a little conversation with Howard and others that relates to Paticcasamuppada. In dhamma-list@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: --- In dhamma-list@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert) - Dear Howard > In a message dated 4/3/02 9:29:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: >> I think it is hard to accept -but nevertheless true - that there is > > nothing at all in this samsara that does not vanish . What is more it > > vanishes as soon as it appears, faster than we could imagine. > > However, because phenomena including 'knowing' (citta,vinnnana, mano > > consciousness)are immediately replaced with no gap between it seems > > that the knowing does not fall away. Citta is the chief in knowing . > > > > > ========================= > Howard: Just one point: Under the assumption that there are, indeed, no gaps, > there is a *sense* in which it could be validly said that the function of > consciousness is continuous - changing, but continuous. For what would > 'continuous' mean other than there being no gaps? (Just a point.) > > With metta, > Howard ________> Ha ha. Yes in that sense consciousness is continuous. But it is always a different consciousness, formed by different , although sometimes similar, conditions. The Buddha compared consciousness to fire: the fire that burned dependent on sticks, the one that burned dependent on dried dung, the one that burned dependent on oil,.. Different fires but still having the same characteristic of fire; in the same way he said seeing-consciousness is different from hearing consciosness is different from smelling .....But still all having the same charactersitic of knowing. It is because of continuity and because the different consciousness's have the same general nature that we take it as lasting and 'mine'. The Visuddhimagga(XV3) "The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention it is concealed by continuity"..However when continuity is disrupted by discerning rise and fall the characterisitic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature" The aspect of anatta is also hard: As you know I've been considering Paticcasamuppada recently: in the Mahanidana sutta atthakatha it says that this is such a deep matter: "Its depth of penetration should be understood ..Deep is the meaning of consciousness as emptiness, abscence of an agent.." The tika continues: "Consciousness's meaning of emptiness is deep because consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self. As it is said "for a long time the uninstructed worldling has been attached to this, appropriated it, and misapprehended it thus; 'This is mine this I am , this is self'"(samyutta XII 61 ii94)(bodhi p66) kind regards robert --- End forwarded message --- 12420 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did > > that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking > > Are you saying that only concepts are objects of angers? > > kom great question, Kom. I'll be interested to see what Howard or Robert says, but here's my answer: Why would anger arise without a concept of a 'self' that had been wronged? If one is 'angry' because a mosquito stings, it is because of the sense of one being wronged, one's body being a possession that has been wounded. It's all ego. So I would say that anger doesn't arise without concept of self and other. Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra, if I can quote Mahayana for my one Mahayana quote per month, that when the Rajah of Kalinga mutilated his body, hacking off one limb at a time while he was still alive, no anger arose within him, because he was already free of the concept of a self, being or entity. I think that's a pretty good example. But, in the moment of expressing anger, or being angry, that moment is a 'real' moment of an emotional experience, with no dependency on concept. The cause is conceptual, the effect is momentary and real. Robert Ep. 12421 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Religious Singles Online oh yippee! oh to be single and religious again..... rob ep ==================== --- rsoonline wrote: > Religious Singles Online > > > WWW.RELIGIOUSSINGLESONLINE.COM Officially Launched > > > Religious Singles, Inc. is pleased to announce that > religioussinglesonline.com is open for business. Religious Singles > Online is inaugurating its service by offering 2,000 free one-month > memberships to the first 2,000 individual who sign-up. > > RSO's focus is that segment of the Internet that defines itself as > religious in orientation. > > Historically, one of the most important features of the Internet has > been the growth of personal communication options between > individuals. The purpose of geographically-based chat rooms and > subject-based chat rooms are to meet new people. > > The purpose of Religious Singles Online is to provide a safe and > secure option for Religious singles to meet or search for others > without the sometimes ugly or vulgar aspects of unregulated chat > rooms. > > Religious Singles Online is a subscription-based service and offers > its users: > Profile-based search capabilities > Secure system messaging > Photo up-load capabilities > > Come visit us today at www.religioussinglesonline.com 12422 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 12:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > It seems clear from this that many situations are not the results of kamma > > but > > merely of arisen conditions that affect physical situations. however, is > > it not > > true that one finding themselves in the country when they are used to the > > desert > > would itself be caused by kammic causes? > > > > Robert Ep. > > > ========================== > Most likely at least in part, and surely with regard to the *realm* of > existence. yep, that's what i would think. and this is supposed to be one of the *better* realms. gee whiz. tired and cranky robert ep. 12423 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 12:26:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > > > It is exactly the idea that there is 'real whole' rock or corpse, which > > would > > constitute an entity, that the idea of rupa is there to combat. When a > > rupa is > > seen directly, there is no 'corpse' or 'rock', there may be an experience > > of > > sighted flesh, smelled rotting, hardness [for rock], etc. Each of these > > experiences is a rupa; when one says: 'Hmmmm, I smell rotting, must be a > > corpse', > > you have jumped from rupa to concept and the rupa is absolutely lost. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course. I understand that and agree with it. > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > I think Buddha's stand was that one should not make a determination whether > > there > > is or is not a 'real rock out there' [a waste of time and makes people > > crazy] but > > rather use concepts of rock and corpse for conventional activity, use rupa > > and > > nama distinguished clearly for enlightenment. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Exactly. But with regard to conventional activity, part of that > activity consists of recognizing that those apparent ever-changing, > ever-flowing heaps of phenomena that we call "people" surely correspond to > nama-rupic flows, just as "we" do, and that pain and heartache occur there > too. If I had to choose between wisdom and compassion, a false choice, I > would surely choose compassion. > ------------------------------------------------------------ dear Howard, In my current mood, I'd rather choose wisdom. But of course you are right, and given the choice, I'd go for the heart too. What is wisdom without metta? Robert Ep. 12424 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of Buddhism Hi Betty. Here's my stab at it: Buddhism is a spiritual philosophy that deals with the causes of human suffering, and the way in which suffering and ignorance can be eliminated through deep understanding. Buddhism has three concepts that it uniquely highlights, known in the Indian languages as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Anatta translates to the lack of a self or being, and it is Buddhism's unique stand that living beings are only mechanical structures with certain given tendencies, and do not really have personal existence. On close inspection, there would be no 'person' found within the body or mind, to either enjoy life or suffer ill effects, and the discovery of this is seen to be liberating for an individual. Anicca means that everything that seems solid and fixed is really impermanent and constantly changing. Dukkha denotes that life, being unstable and changeable, is ultimately unsatisfying and frustrating. One who lets go of this life and self, and realizes the true nature of reality, reaches Nibbana, or absolute freedom from all conditions, the highest goal of Buddhism. Robert Ep. ==================================== --- "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Study Group members, > Would you kindly help me out. A well-known author needs a concise definition (a > paragraph-3-4 sentences) of Buddhism for a book she is writing. The definition > should be clear and written for an audience totally ignorant of Buddhism and > Pali, etc. While many good definitions exist in many sources I thought that you > would be the best qualified to write such a defintion. However, I have been > trying and found it quite difficult to express my understanding of dhamma in > terms that would not confuse or misguide someone having little or no knowledge > of it. > > Anumodhana for taking the time to help my friend out with this. > > Betty > _______________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > e-mail: beyugala@k... > > > 12425 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Sarah, Actually I'm just jealous of Christine's unmitigated zeal. I feel I've been surpassed and now have no purpose in life. I will skulk on however, in hopes of NIbbana. Robert ep. ================= --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep (& Christine), > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > > As far as 'actual' social issues [in the conventional sense, as opposed > > to list > > photo issues -- not that that is not important, I know it is!!!! -- > > didn't we get > > your permission before posting your photo? I thought we did......] > > I think Christine's message and permission-about-photo and so on was all > very tongue-in-cheek (Aussie tongue-in-cheek;-))) and very witty. > > Now as Album keeper, Rob, you should be encouraging her Public Relations > efforts of support. I certainly do. Christine, without getting personal > (anatta as you've pointed out), there are always certain members (list > below) who don't listen to the mods (no control again) and hopefully they > may listen to you instead;-))) > > Many thanks for your fine wit, Chris and Rob, thanks for your comments > too. Hopefully this'll lead to a 'Soring burst' of pix to join Rob K's > nice one in Nepal on the 2nd page of the album. > > (Newbies, on the homepage left side, click on photos) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > > Sarah > =========== > > > > And what is my point exactly,I hear you ask? Well, whether you did > > > or not, I'll tell you....... > > > Azita, , Bhante D., Jaran, KenH , KKT, KenO, Larry, LaymanJohn, Lucy, > > > Manji., Mike B, Michael N, Purnomo, Ranil, Stigan, Suan, Yulia and > > > other posters who may have momentarily escaped my notice, and ALL > > > lurkers........inserting passionate and possibly irrelevant appeal---- > > > ->> How can you let 'Some of Us' and 'Others of Us' carry All the > > > Burden of being "Viewed"? Isn't there something in the buddhist idea > > > of compassionately sharing the tribulations of life? Do you want to > > > be 'continually admonished' (nicer word than nagged) about this? > > > Remember Submission is the ultimate virtue {oops! I'm wandering off > > > onto a different spiritual path here}. > > > > > > I hope you don't feel I'm harassing, intimidating or embarrassing > > > you, because as I've recently been learning, Ultimately "there is no- > > > one to be harassed, intimidated or embarrassed; and there is no-one > > > who does the harassing, intimidating or embarrassing." 12426 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:19pm Subject: ADL ch. 2 (18-20) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 2 paragraphs 18 - 20 18. Sannakkhandha (perception) is real; it can be experienced whenever we remember something. There is sanna with every moment of citta. Each citta which arises experiences an object and sanna which arises with the citta remembers and 'marks' that object so that it can be recognized. Even when there is a moment that one does not recognize something citta still experiences an object at that moment and sanna which arises with the citta 'marks' that object. Sanna arises and falls away with the citta; sanna is impermanent. As long as we do not see sanna as it really is: only a mental phenomenon which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we will take sanna for self. 19. Sankharakkhandha (the fifty cetasikas which are not vedana or sanna) is real; it can be experienced. When there are beautiful mental factors (sobhana cetasikas) such as generosity and compassion, or when there are unwholesome mental factors such as anger and stinginess, we can experience sankharakkhandha. All these phenomena arise and fall away: sankharakkhandha is impermanent. 20. Vinnanakkhandha (citta) is real; we can experience it when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, receiving impressions through the body-sense or thinking. Vinnanakkhandha arises and falls away; it is impermanent. All sankhara dhammas (conditioned phenomenal), that is, the five khandhas, are impermanent. 12427 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (12-17) Thanks Sarah, this link has been giving me the busy signal all day but it finally came thru. Looks good. Good work. Larry 12428 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of Buddhism Good one Robert. I would put anatta after dukkha because anicca and dukkha sort of ease one into the idea of anatta. I don't know about the last sentence, but who does? Larry ------------------ Robert Epstein wrote: Hi Betty. Here's my stab at it: Buddhism is a spiritual philosophy that deals with the causes of human suffering, and the way in which suffering and ignorance can be eliminated through deep understanding. Buddhism has three concepts that it uniquely highlights, known in the Indian languages as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Anatta translates to the lack of a self or being, and it is Buddhism's unique stand that living beings are only mechanical structures with certain given tendencies, and do not really have personal existence. On close inspection, there would be no 'person' found within the body or mind, to either enjoy life or suffer ill effects, and the discovery of this is seen to be liberating for an individual. Anicca means that everything that seems solid and fixed is really impermanent and constantly changing. Dukkha denotes that life, being unstable and changeable, is ultimately unsatisfying and frustrating. One who lets go of this life and self, and realizes the true nature of reality, reaches Nibbana, or absolute freedom from all conditions, the highest goal of Buddhism. Robert Ep. 12429 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (12-17) Larry, We should be thanking Binh for all the time and trouble that he (and the other webmasters) put into making these texts available. I've no idea how they do it, but I am quite sure a lot of work is involved. I'm sure it's helpful for Rob, Amara and others that the mistakes are coming to light. Sarah ====== --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks Sarah, this link has been giving me the busy signal all day but > it finally came thru. Looks good. Good work. > > Larry > 12430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:00pm Subject: a correction Dear friends a correction: the ariyan who contemplates the Triple Gem cannot reach jhana, as I wrote, but access concentration, because of the profundity of the special qualities of the Triple Gem. Nina. 12431 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Dear Christine, if you can navigate this link, it's me. I don't know how to get it into dsg album. The teenage son of a friend of mine managed to get it into this group, but it was a struggle. Larry 12432 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Oops: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/files/Larry.jpg -------------------- Larry wrote: Dear Christine, if you can navigate this link, it's me. I don't know how to get it into dsg album. The teenage son of a friend of mine managed to get it into this group, but it was a struggle. Larry 12433 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) Dear group, I wonder if the mark that sanna makes is the birth of concept. If not, where does concept come from? Larry -------------------- 18. Sannakkhandha (perception) is real; it can be experienced whenever we remember something. There is sanna with every moment of citta. Each citta which arises experiences an object and sanna which arises with the citta remembers and 'marks' that object so that it can be recognized. Even when there is a moment that one does not recognize something citta still experiences an object at that moment and sanna which arises with the citta 'marks' that object. Sanna arises and falls away with the citta; sanna is impermanent. As long as we do not see sanna as it really is: only a mental phenomenon which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we will take sanna for self 12434 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (12-17) Dear Sarah, I agree. We should also thank Nina _profusely_. Thank you Nina, thank you Robert, thank you Amara, thank you Binh, Thank you Num. (I just threw that last one in because I had an extra.) thanks, Larry --------------------- Sarah wrote: Larry, We should be thanking Binh for all the time and trouble that he (and the other webmasters) put into making these texts available. I've no idea how they do it, but I am quite sure a lot of work is involved. I'm sure it's helpful for Rob, Amara and others that the mistakes are coming to light. Sarah 12435 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/3/02 11:01:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > dear Howard, > In my current mood, I'd rather choose wisdom. But of course you are right, > and > given the choice, I'd go for the heart too. > ======================= Sorry about that curent mood. May you be well, and may you be happy. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12436 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 10:50pm Subject: sense bases-Ken H Dear Ken H (& Rob K) --- kenhowardau wrote: > There is something else you may be able to help me with; you wrote to > Howard (message# 12131): > "We're so very used to thinking in terms of conventional or > scientific eyes, ears, and hearts that it's not easy to even > intellectually understand the impermanent eye-sense or eye-base and > so on as rupas and not `things'." > ---------- > Yes, and the problems I'm having with the examples you have given, > tell me I have a long way to go yet. .......... Same for us all.....it’s called ‘lack of panna’ I believe;-) .......... > I have read Robert K and Nina on previous occasions, explaining how > the various sense bases are situated within the sense organs. I know > the problem lies with me and not with them, but I have to say I find > it somewhat contradictory to tie a rupa so very closely to a > concept. Now you have quoted the Atthasalini, which I assume, is > yet another very reliable source, and it says the same thing: > > > As to the "sentient eye" or eyesense, this is to be found, > according to the "Atthasalini", in the middle of the black circle, > surrounded by white circles, and it permeates the ocular > membranes "as sprinkled oil permeates seven cotton wicks." < > > I would have thought that, while there is a close correlation between > ultimate, conditioned reality and conceptual reality, the two are > literally worlds apart. But here we see a rupa so closely identified > with the eye organ, we can almost measure it (smaller than the black > circle) and almost attribute shape to it (in that it permeates the > ocular membranes). > > I'm sorry I don't have a definite question to put to you on this, I > was just wondering if you could see where I'm going wrong. .......... I understand exactly and any point of yours is always a very fine one . In Rob K’s follow up post with references to others, he says: “This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada rupa). The Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we think an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)”. Yet, I think your point is (with which I fully sympathise) that many of the descriptions given from the texts, such as the one I gave above, seem to lead to more identifying, rather than less with the conceptual idea of eye, organ, scientific terminology and so on. Funnily enough, even as I typed that example, the same thought occurred to me. Again, we know this is because of wrong understanding and how these phrases are interpreted, but evenso, it’s a good point to consider. Personally, when I consider cakkhu pasada (eye-sense/base) or any of the bases, I don’t find it very helpful to think about the organs, circles, locations at all. What we’re attempting to understand (even intellectually) in the case of cakkhu pasada, is the rupa which arises and falls away momentarily-- when the eyes are open--and if this occurrence is ‘impacted’ by visible object (another momentarily arising rupa) and they condition seeing (momentarily arising nama) to arise, then there is the experiencing of visible object through the eye sense. I don’t think it’s necessary to think about or try to locate just where eye sense or other senses are, because it is bound to be a long conceptual story as you say. Perhaps it just depends on whether it helps to break down the idea of organs and other concepts or builds them up further, as perhaps it does for us. I found the discussions on ayatanas and the ‘meeting place’ on the needle point very helpful for considering the precise conditions required for a moment of seeing now. Rob, many thanks for your excellent references and comments on this topic.....mostly under ‘rupas’ in U.Posts, I believe. Sarah ========== p.s. > > Sarah, thanks for the good oil on Yahoo and Hotmail. Yahoo bring me > dsg, so, if they want me to use their email service, that's what I'll > do (have done). Now I'd better unsubscribe under the old address - > something I thought I'd never do. Actually, it would be better to ignore anything I say remotely technical. Just after I sent this ‘consiracy theory’, I saw some from others like the ‘tanka’ post Rob Ep also delayed by several days with yahoo servers. If you have any other tech probs, it may be worth asking Kom off-list who understands the enormity of yahoo’s task with these lists. .......... 12437 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Dear Larry, The things we do..... What a very interesting site - at the moment I am only a 'Pending Member' and have yet to be approved by the Moderator. Unless I am approved to join, the site won't allow me into the Photos section, only the Messages and Bookmarks Sections. The Moderator could impose a request for a Letter of Reference, so who knows what is to happen. Meanwhile, I am having a fascinating time in the messages and bookmarks. I'll let you know how I go... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Oops: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/files/Larry.jpg > -------------------- > Larry wrote: > Dear Christine, if you can navigate this link, it's me. I don't know how > to get it into dsg album. The teenage son of a friend of mine managed to > get it into this group, but it was a struggle. > Larry 12438 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Howard, Christine & All, Christine asked in a post sometime ago: “But, how can we be 'compassionate' and 'detached' at the same time? Compassion seems to carry with it overtones of warmth and love; detachment seems to carry coldness, unfeeling. Or, can we only be compassionate if we are detached? Wouldn't non-attached be a more appropriate choice of word, given that detached can be a derogatory term, meaning uninvolved, callous, indifferent (or even mentally unbalanced)? And doesn't compassion need action, to differentiate it from common pity, or emotional self-indulgence?” ********** I was reminded of this question (which remained in my ‘in tray’ ) when Howard wrote in his post yesterday: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > While we're on that topic, it would seem that people in the > Middle > East are being wounded and killed at this very moment by concepts, > namely > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being wounded - it's only > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes creating other concepts, > corpses! A > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not really a tragedy, right? .......... Naturally, any development of wisdom should lead to greater appreciation and development of other fine qualities, rather than the reverse. As others -- and Howard himself-- have pointed out, if an understanding of mental and physical phenomena lead one to an attitude or excuse that the actions don’t matter or ‘we’re living in a world of concepts anyway’, then this is an indication of ignorance, not of wisdom. I’d like to refer to Nina’s discussion and quotes on ‘The Perfections’ because I find it very helpful to understand how these various noble mental states have to develop and support each other and how the last perfection, equanimity (upekkhaa), is “indispensable to the practice of the other perfections”.: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm .......... QUOTE “The commentary states that because of equanimity towards the vicissitudes of life the Bodhisatta’s mind becomes completely unshakable in his determination to fulfil the practices he has undertaken. The vicissitudes of life are gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, bodily ease and misery. These worldly conditions change all the time but one can face them with equanimity. If we really understand that the different si-tuations in our life are conditioned, that they are beyond con-trol, we do not prefer a particular situation to another one, we do not prefer anything else to the development of understanding of the present object. In that way the perfection of determi-nation can develop, it can eventually become unshakable.” ********** Later Nina quotes from the texts on Compassion. We are not able to control ‘the world’, but by developing more wisdom, compassion and other noble qualities, we may help others according to our ability and means: .......... QUOTE “We read about the “Great Compassion” of the Buddha in the “Path of Discrimination” (Patisambhidàmagga, Part I, Ch 71). First all the dangers and disadvantages of the cycle of birth and death which are seen by the Buddhas are summed up, such as: Worldly life moves on. Worldly life is on the wrong road... The world has no lastingness and is 1ed on. The world has no shelter and no protector. The world has nothing of its own, it has to leave all and pass on. The world is incomplete, insatiate, and the slave of craving. Worldly life is without shelter. Worldly life is without shield. Worldly life is without refuge... Worldly life is no refuge... The world is agitated and disturbed... Worldly life is wounded by darts, pierced by many darts; there is none other than myself to draw out the darts... We then read about numerous other disadvantages of Worldly life. Only a Buddha can by his omniscience fully see the extent of the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death. This arouses his compassion so that he is determined to help other beings to attain freedom from the cycle. Further on we read: Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus, “I have crossed over and the world has not crossed over; I am liberated and the world is not liberated; I am controlled and the world is uncontrolled; I am at peace and the world is not at peace; I am comforted and the world is comfortless; I am extinguished and the world is unextinguished; I, having cros-sed over, can bring across; I, being liberated, can liberate; I, being controlled, can teach control; I, being at peace, can pacify; I, being comforted, can comfort; I, being extin-guished, can teach extinguishment,” there descends the Great Compassion. This is the Perfect Ones knowledge of the attainment of the Great Compassion.” ********** Wisdom has to be developed together with the other perfections and any time is an opportunity for these qualities to develop. Equanimity helps us face worldly conditions and news about tragedies and wars without being so disturbed about them. Equanimity and wisdom support compassion and help us to appreciate its quality which is so very different from the ‘worldly’ compassion we always assumed. As Rob Ep discussed, it doesn’t mean we don’t lift up the crying baby or help others in need when we have the chance. On the contrary, we help with a little more discrimination,sincerity and wisdom. Someone asked what it would be like to understand rupas as they really are. What I’d suggest is that with a little more understanding, life goes on as it always has. The outward appearances don’t change (or need to change), but there is a little less dust in the eyes and a little more appreciation of what is really worthwhile in life. In Nina’s recent India series, I appreciated these lines: .......... “The five khandhas are the heavy load, The seizing of the load is man. Holding it is dukkha, Laying down the load is bliss (sukha). laying down this heavy load, And no other taking up, By uprooting al desire, hunger is stilled, nibbana is gained.” (KS 3, khandha-vagga, 1st 50,3-22) ********** Hope this helps a little, Sarah =================== 12439 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:14am Subject: choice and suicide Dear All, Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it is believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within the thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical or emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about Channa, but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts on this matter? metta, Christine 12440 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:26am Subject: Re: choice and suicide --- Dear Christine, There were a large number of monks who killed themselves after developing loathsomeness of the body - a type of samatha (anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi). The commentary says that this was because these monks had done some killing in a past life - they had been hunters and a portion of this kamma gained the opportunity to bring about their deaths. While suicide is certainly new kamma - because there is deliberate intention, this intention is also conditioned by kamma done in the past - although not as directly as if it were vipaka. . The commentary notes that the buddha knew that their time was near and gave them the subject of loathsomeness of the body so that they would become fearless and be reborn in heaven. It might seem strange that a suicide could be born in heaven but although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can happen that other kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as happened in this case. . There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who also killed themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting their throats realised their status, developed satipatthana and went through the stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. > Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it is > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within the > thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical or > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about Channa, > but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts > on this matter? > > metta, > Christine 12441 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Larry, You said: >May I clarify your question? Yes, I am relieved... >1. Why is akusala vipaka citta rootless (without the akusala roots >lobha, dosa, moha)? Yes this is my first question :) >2. Kusala vipaka citta is either with roots (alobha, adosa, amoha) or >without roots. Why is that? Yes... yes... this is my next question... >Btw a good discussion of this can be found in "A Comprehensive Manual >Abhidhamma" published by Buddhist Publication Society. more relieved... is this book online. If so do you know the URL? Thank you very much, You have made we first know what my question is :) Now is the next part - the answer... ~with much meththa ranil 12442 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: choice and suicide Dear Robert, Thanks for this post. I still find this a troublesome issue. I read the anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi that you quoted. The descriptions of trained Monks from 25 centuries ago doesn't match the desperately hurt, confused mental state of distressed people whom I come across. The Monks decision seems not to have come out of suffering, but out of calculated choice to do what they regarded as another step on their spiritual path. The fact that "they sought for an assailant" would seem to mean they involved another person causing him to be a multiple murderer. I have read the notes 299-303, which has other explanations. I'll think about it some more. Another point I have been considering is whether the actions of children are said to bear the same level of consequence as those of adults. For instance, the sixth ranking cause of death for children between 5 years and 14 years (according to Compassionate Friends stats) in the USA is suicide. It could be higher. People find the idea of young children killing themselves as repellent and unbelievable and prefer to label it accidental. In this country, which is likely to have similar statistics, a child is not legally responsible for their actions until 7 years of age - based on the belief that they are not capable until that age of making responsible choices because of the psychological stages of development. ----------------------------------------------------------- RK:"It might seem strange that a suicide could be born in heaven but although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can happen that other kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as happened in this case. . There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who also killed themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting their throats realised their status, developed satipatthana and went through the stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant." ------------------------------------------------------------ strange but comforting. After discussing the terrible result of unexpected fruition of kamma for Mahamogallanna, to have unexpectedly 'not so severe' results occur makes me realise it's all not worth ruminating over. It can't be known by thinking about it, there are just too many influences and factors stretching back forever. I wonder if the Buddha ever commented on childrens' actions (any sort) and responsibility. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > There were a large number of monks who killed themselves after > developing loathsomeness of the body - a type of samatha > (anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi). > The commentary says that this was because these monks had done some > killing in a past life - they had been hunters and a portion of this > kamma gained the opportunity to bring about their deaths. While > suicide is certainly new kamma - because there is deliberate > intention, this intention is also conditioned by kamma done in the > past - although not as directly as if it were vipaka. . The > commentary notes that the buddha knew that their time was near and > gave them the subject of loathsomeness of the body so that they would > become fearless and be reborn in heaven. > It might seem strange that a suicide could be born in heaven but > although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can happen that other > kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as happened in this > case. . > There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who also killed > themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting their throats > realised their status, developed satipatthana and went through the > stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant. > best wishes > robert > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. > > Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a > > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives > > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it > is > > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within > the > > thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are > > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical > or > > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about > Channa, > > but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts > > on this matter? > > > > metta, > > Christine 12443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala vipaka is ahetuka. op 03-04-2002 12:19 schreef ranil gunawardena op dearranil@h...: > in kusal there are two kinds of Vipaka citas. > > 1. Sa + Hetu = Sahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) > 2. A + Hetu = Ahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) > > Here "Hetu" means loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. > > and "Sa" means - including > "A" means - excluding. > > So we are having, > 8 vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha and > 8 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. > Dear Ranil, as to vipakacittas, only those who are the results of kusala kamma, thus, kusala vipakacittas, can be accompanied by the beautiful roots of alobha, adosa and amoha or panna. Akusala vipakacittas can never be accompanied by akusala roots. Lobha, dosa and moha arise only with akusala cittas. R: Buuuuuuuuuutttttttttt, > > In akusal > > Only > 7 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha are > present. > > That means 7 "A"+Hetu means 7 Ahethuka vipaka citas for Akusal. N:That is right. In your other mail you asked, why there are 7 ahetuka vipakacittas that are akusala vipaka and 8 ahetuka vipakacittas that are kusala vipaka. This is because there are two types of santiranacitta, investigating consciousness that are ahetuka kusala vipaka: one type accompanied by indifferent feeling and one type accompanied by pleasant feeling. The latter arises when the object is extraordinarily pleasant. (See ADL Ch 9, the study corner will come to that later on). > R: Now my doubt is, > Why Akusal dont have > vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. What > happend to that part? As you will see in Ch 10, the rebirth-consciousness (and thus also bhavangacitta and cuticitta) that is kusala vipakacitta, can be accompanied by alobha and adosa, and by panna as well. In that case it is sahetuka kusala vipakacitta. The kusala vipakacitta that is rebirth-consciousness can also be ahetuka, in the case of those handicapped from the first moment of life, and then it is a very poor vipaka. When rebirth-consciousness arises in a woeful plane, it is also ahetuka vipakacitta and in that case it is akusala vipakacitta. As I said, akusala vipakacitta could never be accompanied by lobha, dosa and moha, these can only accompany akusala cittas, the active cittas, not cittas that are only results. You also mentioned in your other mail kusala kiriya cittas, that is not possible. The kiriyacitta of the arahat is accompanied by beautiful roots, sobhana hetus. We use the word sobhana here, because sobhana cetasikas can accompany kusala cittas, vipakacittas and kiriyacittas. Best wishes, Nina. 12444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] samatha and vipassana op 03-04-2002 09:22 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > I wonder if there is a special reason why Abhidhamma followers seem to > emphasize > the 'dry insight' approach. Am I mistaken about this? Is it because it is > believed that those capable of the other approaches are no longer present in > this > age? Or is it more that the emphasis on suttas and contemplation of the truth > of > the Dhamma is more in line with the style and temperament of Abhidhamma? > Dear Rob Ep, I would not see myself as an Abhidhamma follower, I value the whole Tipitaka, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma most highly. It is difficult to answer your questions, because I cannot speak for other people. As for myself, my lifestyle is incompatible with jhana and I have no inclinations to it. In the Buddha's time monks who had accumulations for jhana could cultivate it, they could lead a secluded life, no noise. Noise is an ennemy to jhana. Jhana is extremely difficult, as Kom has explained before in a former post, many conditions have to be fulfilled and great panna is necessary, panna that knows very precisely when the citta is kusala, and when there is some subtle clinging, or expecting something. Moreover, those who cultivate jhana also have to develop insight so that clinging to the self and all defilements can be eradicated. The development of insight is difficult, but it can be developed now, in daily life. Why should I also develop jhana that may take many lives before there can be a result, if any. Is it not enough to develop insight together with the ten perfections? You said that your daily life is not compatible with jhana. BTW I liked what you wrote about taking good care of your three year old daughter, you must be a very good father. This is your daily life. Best wishes, Nina. 12445 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 0:15pm Subject: Larry - phot Dear Larry, Have a look at number 17 - Is this you?: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it back! :-) metta, Christine "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." 12446 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:05pm Subject: Re: Larry - phot L, Ooops - I meant no. 27 C. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Larry, > > Have a look at number 17 - Is this you?: > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a > problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it > back! :-) > > metta, > Christine > "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." 12447 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:08pm Subject: Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths Translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera. For free distribution only. From The Book of Protection, translated by Piyadassi Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1999). Copyright ©1999 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Thus have I heard: On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Saints) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the monks saying: "O Monks." "Venerable Sir," replied those monks in assent to the Blessed One. Thereupon he said: "The matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata,[1] the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana or Deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them. "Of what four: It was a proclamation of the Noble Truth of suffering (dukkha), by way of teaching... (as before) and elucidating it; of the Noble Truth of the arising (cause) of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. This matchless Wheel of Dhamma, monks, set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse... or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them. "Monks, follow Sariputta and Moggallana; associate with Sariputta and Moggallana. Wise monks do help (materially and spiritually) those who live the holy life. Monks, Sariputta is like unto a mother, Moggallana is like unto a foster-mother to a child. Sariputta, monks, trains (beings) in the path[2] of stream-attainment. Moggallana in the highest goal (arahantship).[3] Sariputta, monks, is able to proclaim, teach, lay down, establish, open up, analyze, and elucidate the Four Noble Truths." This the Blessed One said, and having said so, the Welcome Being (sugata)[4] rose from his seat and entered (his) abode. Not long after the Blessed One had departed, the Venerable Sariputta addressed the monks, saying: "Reverend friends." "Your reverence," the monks replied the Venerable Sariputta in assent. This the Venerable Sariputta said: "Your reverence, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park, at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana... (as before) in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them. "Of what four? It was a proclamation of the Noble Truth of suffering (dukkha) by way of teaching... elucidating it; of the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. "What, your reverence, is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; aging is suffering; death is suffering; grief, lamentation, bodily pain, mental pain and despair are suffering; not getting what one desires, that too is suffering: In brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering. "What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth. "What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging. "What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death. "What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. "What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. "What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. "What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. "What is meant by not getting what one desires, that too is suffering? To beings subject to birth there comes desire: 'O might we not be subject to birth, and birth not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by mere desiring. So not getting what one desires, that too, is suffering. To beings subject to aging there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to aging, and aging not come to us...' (as before). To beings subject to disease there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to disease and disease not come to us...' To beings subject to death there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to death and death not come to us...' To beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair, and sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by merely desiring. So not getting what one desires that too is suffering. "What, in brief, are the five aggregates subject to grasping that are suffering? These are the aggregate of matter subject to grasping, the aggregate of feeling..., the aggregate of perception..., the aggregate of mental (volitional) formations..., the aggregate of consciousness subject to grasping. These are called, in brief, the five aggregates subject to grasping that are suffering. This is called the Noble Truth of suffering. "What is the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering? It is this craving which produces re-becoming (re-birth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding delight now here now there, namely the craving for sense pleasures, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation). This is called the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering. "What is the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering? It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it. This is called the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering. "And what is the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering? It is this Noble Eightfold Path itself, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "What is right understanding? It is this knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the arising of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of suffering -- this is called right understanding. "What is right thought? Thought of renunciation, thought of goodwill, thought of not harming -- this is called right thought. "What is right speech? Abstention from false speech, abstention from tale-bearing, abstention from harsh (abusive) speech, abstention from idle chatter (gossip), this is called right speech. "What is right action? Abstention from killing, abstention from stealing, abstention from illicit sexual indulgence, this is called right action. "What is right livelihood? Herein (in this dispensation) the ariyan disciple avoiding wrong livelihood, makes his living by right livelihood, this is called right livelihood. "What is right effort? Herein a monk puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to prevent the arising of evil, of unwholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; puts forth will... (as before) to banish the evil, unwholesome thoughts that have already arisen; puts forth will... to develop wholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; and puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to maintain, to preserve, increase, to bring them to maturity, development, and to complete the wholesome thoughts that have arisen. This is called right effort. "What is right mindfulness? Herein a monk lives practicing body contemplation on the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it), having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of the body). "He lives practicing feeling-contemplation on the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of feelings). "He lives practicing mind-contemplation on the mind, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of the mind). "He lives practicing mind-object contemplation on the mind objects, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of mental objects). This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? Herein a monk aloof from sense desires, aloof from unwholesome thoughts, attains to and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana) which is detachment-born and accompanied by applied thought, sustained thought, joy, and bliss. "By allaying applied and sustained thought he attains to, and abides in the second jhana which is inner tranquillity, which is unification (of the mind), devoid of applied and sustained thought, and which has joy and bliss. "By detachment from joy he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and with clear comprehension and enjoys bliss in body, and attains to and abides in the third jhana which the noble ones (ariyas) call: 'Dwelling in equanimity, mindfulness, and bliss.' "By giving up of bliss and suffering, by the disappearance already of joy and sorrow, he attains to, and abides in the fourth jhana, which is neither suffering nor bliss, and which is the purity of equanimity- mindfulness. This is called right concentration. "This is called the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. "Your reverence, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consumate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park, at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana or deva or Brahma or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them." This the Venerable Sariputta said. Those monks glad at heart rejoiced at the words of the Venerable Sariputta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Notes 1. For a very comprehensive account of the Four Noble Truths read The Buddha's Ancient Path, Piyadassi Thera, Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka (Ceylon). [Go back] 2. Literally "fruit", "sotapatti phale." [Go back] 3. To train in the path of stream-attainment is more difficult than to train in the path of arahantship for the reason that in the former case one has to deal with undeveloped beings, and in the latter case with those who are already developed, and who are, by virtue of their development, not destined to fall back. [Go back] 4. This is another epithet of the Buddha. [Go back] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Fri 21 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn141.html 12448 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:16pm Subject: Sariputta Sutta Udana III.4 Sariputta Sutta About Sariputta Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Ven. Sariputta was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, having mindfulness established to the fore. The Blessed One saw Ven. Sariputta sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, having mindfulness established to the fore. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Just as a mountain of rock, is unwavering, well-settled, so the monk whose delusion is ended, like a mountain, is undisturbed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-04.html 12449 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:24pm Subject: Total Unbinding Udana VIII.1 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (1) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).[1] This, just this, is the end of stress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Note 1. See SN XXII.53. [Go back] See also: Ud VIII.2; Ud VIII.3; Ud VIII.4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Sun 14 October 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-01.html Udana VIII.2 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (2) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: Ud VIII.1; Ud VIII.3; Ud VIII.4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-02.html Udana VIII.3 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (3) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: Ud VIII.1; Ud VIII.2; Ud VIII.4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03.html Udana VIII.4 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (4) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: Ud VIII.1; Ud VIII.2; Ud VIII.3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-04.html 12450 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 Dear Nina, Nina, I have some notes. They are just a layman opinion, OK. ---------------------------------------------------------- ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati, anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama. N: For those who live in the desert a climate that is not ordinary (to them) arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in the desert or also at a seashore with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises from change of climate originates from (all) that. ________________________________________________________________ Num : The British borrowed the word jungle from India, jangala = jungle. Well, an English wood is not a jungle. Here are some history of the word I got from Oxford & Webster websites: ****************************** In India, originally, as a native word, Waste or uncultivated ground (= 'forest' in the original sense); then, such land overgrown with brushwood, long grass, etc.; hence, in Anglo-Indian use, a. Land overgrown with underwood, long grass, or tangled vegetation; also, the luxuriant and often almost impenetrable growth of vegetation covering such a tract. b. with a and pl. A particular tract or piece of land so covered; esp. as the dwelling-place of wild beasts. [Oxford] [Ultimately from Sanskrit ja galam, desert, wasteland, uncultivated area, from ja gala-, desert, waste.] \Jun"gle\, n. [Hind. jangal desert, forest, jungle; Skr. ja?gala desert.] A dense growth of brushwood, grasses, reeds, vines, etc.; an almost impenetrable thicket of trees, canes, and reedy vegetation, as in India, Africa, Australia, and Brazil. [Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary]. ************************** I am not sure whether it means a desert or not. Esp. when it also mentions < malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi> samuda can mean just any bodies of water. There are some believes about the miasmas can cause cholera, malaria and yellow fever. It just knew pretty recently that those diseases caused from some microorganisms. A lot of the French died during Panama Canal construction from yellow fever until someone (I forgot his name) drained all the swamps and eliminated most of the mosquitoes then the yellow was under control. In India Malaria is very endemic, my personal gut feeling is it refers to some tropical milieu. I do not know exactly what anu-padesa really refers to. --------------------------------------------- visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani. N: , by carrying a heavy load or by pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time ,who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on, that means, arisen because of adverse behaviour. Num: I guess comes from Vi + Sama + Parihara. Vi = not, Sama = equal, even, impartial, holistic or altogether and Parihara = attend, foster or keep. In Thai it translated to inattentive caring of one's own body. Just my personal opinion. Appreciated. Num 12451 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (7-11) Dear Larry, << Also what is happening with that sutta you and Nina were discussing about the various illnesses? I thought the Buddha was saying don't be concerned with what you cannot know (or something like that). Seems like it would be relevant to this subject.>> I am studying the sutta and its commentary. I agree with you that there are something we should not worry too much to know, but there are also something we can see and prove in daily life, here and now. << N:"Only through the body sense, that the accompanied feeling is pleasant or unpleasant. For other doorways sense cittas (eye, ear, nose, tongue), the accompanied feeling is neutral for both kusala-vipaka and akusala-vipaka." The resultant eye consciosness would be neutral? Could you give an example. Also what about resultant mind consciousness? >> Let me quote from Nina's Cetasika. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Bodily feelings arise because of impingement of "a pleasant or unpleasant object on the bodysense. The kaya-vinnana cognizes the pleasant or unpleasant object which impinges on the bodysense, phassa 'contacts' the object and vedana experiences the "taste" of the object. The feeling which accompanies kaya-vinnana is either pleasant feeling or painful feeling, it cannot be indifferent feeling. In the case of the other panca-vinnanas (the five pairs of sense-cognitions, seeing, hearing, etc). One of each pair is kusala vipaka and one akusala vipaka. which are seeing, hearing smelling and tasting, the accompanying feeling is always indifferent feeling, no matter whether the vipakacitta which experiences the object is kusaIa vipakacitta or akusala vipakacitta. The Paramattha Manjusa, a commentary to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, note 56) explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow '; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense. Tangible objects which are experienced through the rupa which is the bodysense are the following rupas: soIidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure. By way of a simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible object on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The 'impact' of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysense. We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this is not so. The moment of body-consciousness (kaya-vinnana) is extremely short; it is only one moment of vipaka and after it has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. Body-consciousness Is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arise shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different from bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy feeling or indifferent feeling. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- As I understand it. Only through the body sense that the 4 great elements (4 mahabhutarupa) can impinge directly on pasada-rupa, which is a kind of rupas derived and depended on the four-great-element (upada-rupa). The other doorway senses the upada-rupas impinge on pasada-rupas, which are also upada-rupa as well. It said that b/c the coarseness of the 4-great-element; the feeling through the body sense then can be pleasant and unpleasant. The contact between upada-rupa and upada-rupa is gentler, so the feeling from that contacts are always neutral in the other doorways. There can be some resultant cittas occur in mind conscious pathway and also at the moment of death, rebirth and also as life continuum citta. There will be some more detail in the future chapters in ADL. <> Anumodana in your kusala vipaka, Larry :-) Best wishes, Num 12452 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Robert and Christine, Robert, is the quote you mentioned from the origin of the 3rd parajika ? I was too surprised that after the Buddha gave a discourse about asupa, he then went into a secluded place for half a month and a lot of monks completed suicide or asked another person to kill them. Good to hear more from the Co. Christine; I do not work much with children but as I remember, for persons 15-25 years of age, the three most common causes of death in the States are accident, homicide and then suicide. Girls make more attempts than boys, but boy completed more than girl. The prevalence and means of suicide completion are different from country to country, 70% of cases in the US use firearms, only 6% in England and 5% in Thailand use firearms. In Thailand 40% of completed suicide are from hanging. There are 2 peaks of the incidence, 15-25 years of age and another peak is between age of 55-70. The very common risk facors in adult are alcohol dependence, previous history of suicidal attempt, male, psychiatric disease(well, I also call alc. dependence a psychiatric disease), recent loss and loss of physical health. My crude recall, ok. Best wishes. Num 12453 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide -- Dear Num, yes that is right . I quoted the sutta from the samyutta nikaya but it is also in the vinaya pitaka. In the vinaya the monk who did some of the killing was a 'sham recluse' - he wasn't among those who went to heaven. best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Robert and Christine, > > Robert, is the quote you mentioned from the origin of the 3rd parajika ? I > was too surprised that after the Buddha gave a discourse about asupa, he then > went into a secluded place for half a month and a lot of monks completed > suicide or asked another person to kill them. Good to hear more from the Co. > > 12454 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry - phot Yes Christine, it's me. Good job moving it over. You're so smart!!! Larry ------------ Christine wrote: Dear Larry, Have a look at number 17 - Is this you?: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it back! :-) metta, Christine "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." 12455 From: onco111 Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "unpleasant words" -DAN Hi Sarah, Just a few quick comments on the note you directed me to... You write: > doubts. Sometimes, I think we can generalise and speak more conventionally > too. For example, if someone is angry and shouts, perhaps it's fair to > mention the akusala vipaka of those that hear the sounds? Maybe not ? I'd > be glad to hear any more of your considerations on this topic. What akusala vipaka? The domanassa that doesn't like the words? Or the implication of the tones? Those are dosa-mula-citta, not akusala vipaka. To say that there is akusala vipaka is utter speculation, but the akusala kamma is easy to see. It just confuses the issue to speak of the akusala vipaka of hearing unpleasant words. Instead, I like the "akusala kamma of seeing words as unpleasant"--entirely different meaning and implications, yet much more accurate. > On the otherhand, your comments about whether we say `seeing > sees/experiences visible object' or `there is the experience of seeing (of > visible object)' seemed to be something of a quibble to me. Immediately jumping to my mind is a story about a young squirrel who asks a wise owl: "How much does a snowflake weigh?" The wise owl replies: "Nothing at all." "Then I just saw a branch break under the weight of a whole lot of nothing." The distinction between "citta experiences" and "there is (mere) experiencing" is so critical that I don't think it's an understatement at all to say that without clear understanding of the distinction, there is no understanding abhidhamma. Whenever I see "citta experiences," it gives me pause. I know it appears occasionally in the commentaries, especially when the terms are defined. But the English gives a definite sense of reification that I believe is lacking in the Pali. Instead of, say, "It is called citta because it cittizes," it makes more sense to say, "Citta is so- named because there is cittizing." I haven't looked up the Pali yet, but I'd bet there is no explicit "it" in what might be translated as "it cittizes"--just a verb, albeit with inflection but no separate "it" I'll warrant. [Sorry I don't have time to find a precise Pali phrase and translation for you here]. My impression is that the reification of citta in the commentaries is not common (esp. outside the definitions) and that the apparent reifications do not have the force in Pali grammar that they do in English. Dan 12456 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Hi Ranil, yes there is an online version of "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" here: http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm However, this is such a difficult subject I think you will want the book. I'm sure you can find someplace online that sells it. The book has a different commentary, very good but still difficult. What have you been using so far? Since no one has answered your questions I guess I will throw something out and see what happens. 1. Why is akusala vipaka citta rootless (without the akusala roots lobha, dosa, moha)? 2. Kusala vipaka citta is either with roots (alobha, adosa, amoha) or without roots. Why is that? Kusala and akusala citta motivate the activity of kamma. This teaching is based on the ancient brahmanic ethical equation, good deeds produce good fortune *in the next life time*. So this is all about values (feelings). In a nut shell, akusala citta _may_motivate kamma activity which will produce body pain in another life. All body pain in this life is the result (vipaka citta) of akusala citta in a previous life.This body pain (vipaka citta) is rootless (without lobha,dosa,moha). One aspect of vipaka citta is that it cannot motivate kamma activity (not strong enough?). Kusala citta _may_ motivate kamma activity which will produce body pleasure or investigating consciousness joy in another life. All body pleasure and investigating consciousness joy in this life time is the result (vipaka citta) of kusala citta in a previous life. This body pleasure and investigating joy is rootless (without alobha, adosa, amoha). Or kusala citta may motivate kamma which will result in alobha + adosa or alobha + adosa + amoha citta. This is kusala vipaka _with_ roots (with alobha, adosa, amoha). As with akusala vipaka, neither kind of kusala vipaka can motivate kamma activity. Also there could be other vipaka citta from sense consciousnesses, receiving consciousnesses, and other investigating consciousnesses, but these have a neutral feeling and can be distinguished between kusala and akusala only on the basis of whether the object is mentally (?) pleasant or unpleasant. In this life, all these vipaka are results of kusala or akusala in previous life times; and because they are vipaka they cannot motivate further kamma. The general idea is that whatever pleasure or pain or goodness we experience in this life is the result of virtue or non-virtue in a previous life. One can either reject this on reason or accept it on faith. One thing to consider is if we accept it on faith and it turns out we were wrong, we still will have accomplished much good by cultivating kusala citta and not worrying about results in this life time. You might also want to follow the conversation between Sahah and Dan (onco111). They are discussing the same thing. good luck :-)) Larry 12457 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:53pm Subject: ADL ch 2. (21-24) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 2, paragraphs 21 - 24 21. Sometimes the khandhas are called the 'groups of grasping' (in Pali: upadanakkhandha). The upadanakkhandhas are the khandhas which are the objects of clinging. Those who are not arahats still cling to the khandhas. We take the body for self; thus we cling to rupakkhandha. We take mentality for self; thus we cling to vedanakkhandha, to sannakkhandha, to sankharakkhandha and to vinnanakkhandha. If we cling to the khandhas and if we do not see them as they are, we will have sorrow. As long as the khandhas are still 'objects of clinging' (upadanakkhandha) for us, we are like people afflicted by sickness. 22. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (III, Khandha-vagga, the First Fifty, par. I, Nakulapitar) that the housefather Nakulapitar, who was an old, sick man, came to see the Buddha at Crocodile Haunt in the Deerpark. The Buddha said to him that he should train himself thus: 'Though my body is sick, my mind shall not be sick. ' Later on Sariputta gave him a further explanation of the Buddha's words: Herein, housefather, the untaught many-folk... who are unskilled in the worthy doctrine, untrained in the worthy doctrine - - these regard body as the self, they regard the self as having body, body as being in the self, the self as being in the body. 'I am the body', they say, 'body is mine', and are possessed by this idea; and so, possessed by this idea, when body alters and changes, owing to the unstable and changeful nature of the body, then sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair arise in them. They regard feeling (vedana) as the self... They regard perception (sanna) as the self... They regard the activities (sankharakkhandha) as the self... They regard consciousness (vinana) as the self... That, housefather, is how body is sick and mind is sick too. And how is body sick, but mind not sick? Herein, housefather, the well taught ariyan disciple... regards not body as the self... He regards not feeling (vedana) as the self... He regards not perception (sanna) as the self... He regards not the activities (sankharakkhandha) as the self... He regards not consciousness (vinnana) as the self... As he is not so possessed, when consciousness alters and changes owing to the unstable and changeful nature of consciousness, sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair do not arise in him. Thus, housefather, body is sick, but mind is not sick. 23. As long as we are still clinging to the khandhas we are like sick people, but we can be cured of our sickness if we see the khandhas as they are. The khandhas are impermanent and thus they are dukkha (unsatisfactory). We read in the 'Kindred Savings' (III, Khandha-vagga, Last Fifty, par. 104, Suffering) that the Buddha taught the 'Four Noble Truths' to the monks. He said: Monks, I will teach You dukkha, the arising of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha, the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha. Do you listen to it. (In the English translation 'dukkha' is sometimes translated as 'suffering', sometimes as 'ill'. Here the English text has the word 'suffering'.) And what, monks, is dukkha? It is to be called the five khandhas of grasping. What five? The rupakkhandha of grasping, the vedanakkhandha of grasping, the sannakkhandha of grasping, the sankharakkhandha of grasping, the vinnanakkhandha of grasping. This, monks, is called dukkha. And what, monks, is the arising of dukkha? It is that craving... that leads downward to rebirth... the craving for feeling, for rebirth, for no rebirth... This, monks, is called the arising of dukkha. And what, monks, is the ceasing of dukkha? It is the utter passionless ceasing, the giving up, the abandonment of, the release from, the freedom from attachment to that craving... This, monks, is called the ceasing of dukkha. And what, monks, is the way going to the ceasing of dukkha? It is this Ariyan Eightfold Path... This, monks, is the way going to the ceasing of dukkha. 24. As long as there is still clinging to the khandhas there will be the arising of the khandhas in rebirth, and this means sorrow. If we develop the Eightfold Path we will learn to see what the khandhas really are. Then we are on the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha, which means: no more birth, old age, sickness and death. Those who have attained the last stage of enlightenment, the stage of the arahat, will be, after their life-span is over, free from the khandhas. -ooOoo- Questions 1. Which paramattha dhammas are nama? 2. Which paramattha dhammas are sankhara dhammas (conditioned realities)? 3. Which paramattha dhamma is visankhara dhamma (unconditioned reality)? 4. Which sankhara dhammas (conditioned realities) are nama? 5. Are all cetasikas sankharakkhandha? 6. Is vedana cetasika (feeling) a khandha? 7. Is sanna cetasika (perception) a khandha? 8. Is bodily painful feeling vipaka? 9. Is mental unpleasant feeling vipaka? 10. Which khandhas are nama? 11. Is seeing-consciousness a khandha? 12. Is the concept 'human being' a khandha? 13. Is sound a khandha? 14. Which paramattha dhammas are khandhas? 12458 From: goglerr Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 11:36pm Subject: Re: ADL ch 2. (21-24) Answers to questions. Questions 1. Which paramattha dhammas are nama? Nibbana, cetasika & citta 2. Which paramattha dhammas are sankhara dhammas (conditioned realities)? Cetasika, citta & rupa 3. Which paramattha dhamma is visankhara dhamma (unconditioned reality)? Nibbana 4. Which sankhara dhammas (conditioned realities) are nama? Cetasika & citta 5. Are all cetasikas sankharakkhandha? Yes 6. Is vedana cetasika (feeling) a khandha? Yes 7. Is sanna cetasika (perception) a khandha? Yes 8. Is bodily painful feeling vipaka? Yes 9. Is mental unpleasant feeling vipaka? Yes 10. Which khandhas are nama? Vedana, sanna, sankhara & citta 11. Is seeing-consciousness a khandha? Yes, under cittakhandha 12. Is the concept 'human being' a khandha? No. 13. Is sound a khandha? Yes, under rupakhandha. 14. Which paramattha dhammas are khandhas? Cetasika, Citta & Rupa > Questions > > 1. Which paramattha dhammas are nama? > 2. Which paramattha dhammas are sankhara dhammas (conditioned > realities)? > 3. Which paramattha dhamma is visankhara dhamma (unconditioned reality)? > 4. Which sankhara dhammas (conditioned realities) are nama? > 5. Are all cetasikas sankharakkhandha? > 6. Is vedana cetasika (feeling) a khandha? > 7. Is sanna cetasika (perception) a khandha? > 8. Is bodily painful feeling vipaka? > 9. Is mental unpleasant feeling vipaka? > 10. Which khandhas are nama? > 11. Is seeing-consciousness a khandha? > 12. Is the concept 'human being' a khandha? > 13. Is sound a khandha? > 14. Which paramattha dhammas are khandhas? 12459 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: sense bases-Ken H Dear Sarah and Robert K Thank you both for your replies which combine beautifully to show me where I was going wrong. As you say, the texts are trying to dismiss any identification of an absolute reality with its conceptual counterpart. Knowing this, why should I quibble over the choice of words -- worrying that they don't suit the current form of my mere, intellectual understanding. I often remember Nina's words to the effect that, `unlike any other teacher before or since, the Buddha taught satipatthana and we should view everything he said in the light of satipatthana.' With this in mind, it seems to me that the Tipitaka is not so much the Dhamma itself, as a collection of truths (or descriptions), that can condition the Dhamma (satipatthana). So for the time being, and hopefully in the future, I will concern myself less with the style, and more with the substance. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > In > Rob K's follow up post with references to others, he says: > > "This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada rupa). The > Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term > pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we think > an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)". > > Yet, I think your point is (with which I fully sympathise) that many of > the descriptions given from the texts, such as the one I gave above, seem > to lead to more identifying, rather than less with the conceptual idea of > eye, organ, scientific terminology and so on. Funnily enough, even as I > typed that example, the same thought occurred to me. Again, we know this > is because of wrong understanding and how these phrases are interpreted, > but evenso, it's a good point to consider. > > Personally, when I consider cakkhu pasada (eye-sense/base) or any of the > bases, I don't find it very helpful to think about the organs, circles, > locations at all. What we're attempting to understand (even > intellectually) in the case of cakkhu pasada, is the rupa which arises and > falls away momentarily-- when the eyes are open--and if this occurrence is > `impacted' by visible object (another momentarily arising rupa) and they > condition seeing (momentarily arising nama) to arise, then there is the > experiencing of visible object through the eye sense. I don't think it's > necessary to think about or try to locate just where eye sense or other > senses are, because it is bound to be a long conceptual story as you say. > Perhaps it just depends on whether it helps to break down the idea of > organs and other concepts or builds them up further, as perhaps it does > for us. I found the discussions on ayatanas and the `meeting place' on the > needle point very helpful for considering the precise conditions required > for a moment of seeing now. > > Rob, many thanks for your excellent references and comments on this > topic.....mostly under `rupas' in U.Posts, I believe. > > Sarah > 12460 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sariputta Sutta Victor It's good to see your interest in and study of the Suttas. I think you have posted this and the other suttas because you find them relevant to a particular thread or threads. May I suggest that, instead of posting whole suttas without comment, it would be more helpful to identify the thread and say why you find the sutta relevant (quoting just the relevant part of the sutta - or else giving a link to the on-line version). Thanks. Keep up the good work. Jon --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Majjhima Nikaya 141 > Saccavibhanga Sutta > Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths > Translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera. > For free distribution only. > From The Book of Protection, translated by Piyadassi Thera (Kandy: > Buddhist Publication Society, 1999). Copyright ©1999 Buddhist > Publication Society. Used with permission. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn141.html 12461 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 0:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch 2. (21-24) Dear goglerr, > -----Original Message----- > From: goglerr [mailto:goglerr@y...] > > Answers to questions. > > Questions > > 5. Are all cetasikas sankharakkhandha? > Yes Sankharakkhandha has a different meaning from sankhara-dhamma. What are sankharakkhandha? Are all the cetasikas sankharakkhandha? > 8. Is bodily painful feeling vipaka? > Yes > 9. Is mental unpleasant feeling vipaka? > Yes Why is bodily painful feeling vipaka? Why do you say mental unpleasant feeling is vipaka? What does unpleasant mental feeling arise with? kom 12462 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry - phot Dear All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Larry, > I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a > problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it > back! :-) Larry, welcome to the dsg ‘Hall of Fame’. Christine, a great Search & Rescue mission from ‘Nonduality Salon’ group where I now understand Larry’s pic was inadvertently dropped en route to dsg. Hope you learned something useful from their archives and bookmarks whilst on mission. Btw, I note you have a new signature: > "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." ;-)) ********** All, let me properly introduce you to the lineup Photo Album Crack Team: Rob Ep: Keeper and Role Model Chris: P.R./Search & Rescue Extraordinnaire Kom: Long Suffering Elements of Technical Sanity Sarah: Busybody .......... Let me add that no mission or set of obstacles is too great for us. To give just a few examples of pitfalls we’ve overcome along the way: 1. “Bad hair day” - (Chris) 2. “I’m always the photographer” (Num) 3. “I don’t have any photos” (Kom) 4. “Not into material possessions” (Frank) 5. “Dropped by son’s friend in the wrong group” (Larry) .......... So anyone else, give us your excuse and we’ll work on it;-) Meanwhile, Herman’s youngest son still looks like he’ll be winning the prize for the biggest smile with Num and his companion, Mr Hippo as joint runners-up. Sarah =========== 12463 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 2:05am Subject: Re: Larry - phot Dear Sarah, Larry, and All, Sarah, thanks for making me smile - 'The Photo Album Crack Team' ...... I would love to see every one else on the list, but do appreciate some people may be very private individuals and promise to bring the subject up again - only occasionally. :) A bonus from my adventure to find Larrys' photo, (Larry I simply cloned you, the original photo is still on the Nonduality Salon site) - was the absorbing time I had in reading the site while waiting to be approved by the Moderators. ..... ground of our being .....universal awareness/consciousness....... I can remember being quite affected by Kierkegaard during my teenage years. ...... From a Buddhist perspective, an interesting article on Non-duality from Bhikkhu Bodhi is found in "Dhamma and non-duality": http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/lib/bps/news/essay27. html Seriously: Speaking of cloning - if 'cloning' is taken as being 'a group of genetically identical cells or organisms derived from a single cell or individual by some kind of asexual reproduction' - how does that relate to the buddhist doctrine of 'rebirth'? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Larry, > > I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a > > problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it > > back! :-) > > Larry, welcome to the dsg `Hall of Fame'. > Christine, a great Search & Rescue mission from `Nonduality Salon' group > where I now understand Larry's pic was inadvertently dropped en route to > dsg. Hope you learned something useful from their archives and bookmarks > whilst on mission. Btw, I note you have a new signature: > > "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." > ;-)) > ********** > All, let me properly introduce you to the lineup Photo Album Crack Team: > > Rob Ep: Keeper and Role Model > Chris: P.R./Search & Rescue Extraordinnaire > Kom: Long Suffering Elements of Technical Sanity > Sarah: Busybody > .......... > Let me add that no mission or set of obstacles is too great for us. To > give just a few examples of pitfalls we've overcome along the way: > > 1. "Bad hair day" - (Chris) > 2. "I'm always the photographer" (Num) > 3. "I don't have any photos" (Kom) > 4. "Not into material possessions" (Frank) > 5. "Dropped by son's friend in the wrong group" (Larry) > .......... > > So anyone else, give us your excuse and we'll work on it;-) > Meanwhile, Herman's youngest son still looks like he'll be winning the > prize for the biggest smile with Num and his companion, Mr Hippo as joint > runners-up. > > Sarah 12464 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 2:14am Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi "Dhamma and non-duality" A simpler link for Bhikkhu Bodhi "Dhamma and non-duality" is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html -Chris- 12465 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep Rob Ep Thanks for this post. I can see you have put a lot of thought into it. The question of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path is a somewhat perplexing one, one that only becomes clear after a lot of consideration and study (in my opinion). I notice that in a subsequent post to Rob K you acknowledge the possibility of enlightenment without the prior attainment of mundane jhana (the sukkha-vipassaka). This of course has a direct bearing on our discussion concerneing the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. If we are right about the sukkha-vipassaka, then Right Concentration cannot possibly mean mundane jhana attained prior to enlightenment (since it would not accommodate that case). I would like to share some thoughts below on an alternative view of the path factors (but my apologies in advance for mostly repeating things said already in earlier posts). --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > With great respect and continued interest in this subject [don't you hate it when > someone says that before they're about to disagree with you?] I don't see the > great value in outlining a path that is so unified in nature that all the elements > must spontaneously arise together whether one has done any work on any of them or > not. Why not just call it the Noble Onefold Path and talk about the factors that > lead to its arising, if it is so unified as one 'Eightfold' event? Your point here, I think, is that the Noble Eightfold Path is a path in the sense that it is a progression through/along the 8 factors. With the utmost respect, Rob [you'll find it hard to out-platitude a lawyer trained in the British system], I don't think this is correct. A path is a means of getting from one point to another. In the case of the Noble Eightfold Path, the path is the path that leads from stream-entry through the 4 stages of enlightenment to final enlightenment as an arahant. When the suttas talk about the development of the Noble Eightfold Path, the reference is to the development from stream-entry to arahantship. As against this interpretation, it might be argued that once stream-entry has been attained and final enlightenment is assured, little more in the way of development is needed, and I think that relative to our position that would be a fair comment. However, the suttas make it clear that the stream enterer and attainers of the next 2 levels still need to strive, and that only for the arahant is there no more work to be done. The *Noble Eightfold Path*, then, is the sutta term for the progression through the 4 stages of enlightenment, and more specifically for the 4 moments of consciousness at which those stages of enlightenment occur (path-consciousness/magga citta). The *8 factors* of the path (Right View etc) are 8 cetasikas that accompany each moment of magga citta. The *descriptions of the path factors* given in the suttas are descriptions in conventional [sutta] language of the particular characteristic or function of each of those cetasikas at the path moment. It is 'noble' because it relates exclusively to supramundane consciousness and enlightenment, 'eightfold' because it comprises 8 simultaneously occurring factors, and a 'path' for the reason discussed above. > If the Eight Factors which make up the Eightfold Path are not to be cultivated as > individual factors which are amenable to a kind of benign effort, then they are in > fact not the factors that lead to Enlightenment, but merely its first fruit. To > me, this seems to greatly put the cart before the horse in terms of the way the > Buddha talks in the limited readings which I can confess to. He talks > extensively, does he not?, of each factor in turn, describing what it consists of > and how it is to be cultivated. How can this kind of progressive and > element-specific talk about each factor be ignored in favor of a vision which > leaves the arising of the Eightfold factors completely out of the hands of the > practitioner? You see the descriptions of the individual path factors given in the suttas as directions for how the factors are to be cultivated. I think that this is a matter of interpretation (and is obviously crucial to this discussion we are having). The suttas don’t actually say that in as many words -- it is an inference that some choose to draw. Now if you look at the descriptions of the path factors in the suttas, you'll find they are fairly bare. As a 'how to cultivate' guide, there is much more we might expect to find: where does one start, in what order are the factors to be developed, and in what manner, how is the relative development of each to be gauged, how much is enough for one before moving on to another, is only the 1st jhana required or must it be 4th (and if 1st is sufficient, why go on to mention the others), why should right effort be necessary in addition to the actual right view and right concentration etc, why is it necessary to mention livelihood in addition to speech and action, are some factors more important than others, and so on. You also say that the 8 path factors are truly the *factors that lead to enlightenment *, and that if the cultivation of these factors is not necessary, then it seems there's nothing to be done I am not aware of any passage in the suttas or commentaries that describes the individual path factors as 'factors that lead to enlightenment'. I am however aware of other factors that are given that description or one close to it. 2 examples would be: - The 4 sotapattiyanga ('factors for stream entry'), namely, association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. - The 7 sets of factors commonly referred to as the 37 bodhi-pakkhiya dhamma ('factors pertaining to enlightenment'). As you will know, 1 of the 7 sets of factors (the last) is the Noble Eightfold Path itself. Your interpretation does not seem to leave room for any significance in the other 6 sets of factors. > In the description that makes sense to me, the factors have a dual nature, prior > to enlightenment and during the cultivation of enlightened stages. It is > progressive. One cultivates the eight separate factors and develops skill in > their practice. … > … one is able to apprehend impermanence and non-ego to a decent extent. > At this point, one becomes a stream-entrant and the eight factors solidify into a > person who becomes the expression of the Eightfold Path. It then becomes the > Noble Eightfold Path and becomes the journey of one who has basic realization of > reality, and is cultivating it into the higher stages in a more or less natural or > spontaneous way, since the eight factors are no longer a mystery to this person, > or a struggle, but are somewhat reflexive. I agree that the path factors of the Noble Eightfold Path can be seen as having both a mundane (non-enlightenment) and supramundane (enlightenment) aspect, but in a perhaps a different way than you do ;-)) . Every moment of vipassana is a moment of mundane path consciousness, and at such moments the path factors are being developed in their mundane form(but only 5 or sometimes 6 of them, not all 8 at once). At such moments also, each factor performs its path function, but not with the same intensity or breadth as at a moment of supramundane (8-fold) path consciousness. So there is the development of the 8 path factors before enlightenment, but it happens by the development of satipatthana and vipassana, not by singling out the individual path factors for 'practice'. As I commented in a post to Howard while you were in your last lurk mode, according to the 'individual factors to be separately practised' interpretation, any person who develops jhana or makes an effort to have kusala or who believes in kamma/vipaka (that being one of the descriptions of right view), would be developing factors of the 'Noble Eightfold Path', regardless of whether they have never heard the dhamma and even if they follow a teaching that declares the existence of a self or soul or god. Surely this is not right? Always enjoy our discussions, Rob. Jon 12466 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 2:47am Subject: clone --- Dear Christine, I wrote a letter about this just after dolly the sheep came about . That was around 5 years ago so is a bit dated but might have something of interest: http://www.zolag.co.uk/clone.html best . robert ammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" 12467 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 2:59am Subject: Re: clone Thanks Robert :) Your letter on Zolag answered all of the questions that had been occurring to me. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I wrote a letter about this just after dolly the sheep came about . > That was around 5 years ago so is a bit dated but might have > something of interest: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/clone.html > best . > robert > > > ammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" 12468 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, .... > If Abhidhamma has any seeming prejudice [and I would contend that every single > system, including every system of Buddhism does, including my own 'favorites'] it > is the idea that discernment of realities alone is really of utmost value, and > that other efforts or practices are either distracting or ineffectual. For > instance, there have been discussions lately about Right Concentration and whether > it is constituted of the jhanas. Although the Buddha seems to explicitly state > that it is constituted by the jhanas, this is interpreted in an indirect way to > mean something else, because cultivation would take the factor out of the > exclusive realm of the stages of enlightenment. It is also pointed out that the > difficulty of attaining the jhanas is beyond the capability of most people, > enormously difficult. But I would say that the discernment of namas and rupas is > equally hard, and so why not cultivate the former as well as the latter? However > many lifetimes it may take, if we are to follow the Buddha's advice, we should be > cultivating all that he advises, and let the process begin at the stage that we're at. It's true that the abhidhamma does not support the view of *mundane jhana as a necessary prerequisite* for the arising of magga citta (enlightenment consciousness). It does, however, support the description of Right Concentration as being *concentration of an intensity equivalent to that of mundane jhana* arising at moments of path consciousness (enlightenment). To suggest that this indicates a prejudice against samatha is I think to prejudge the issue (no pun intended!). It all depends on the view you take of the sutta passages, which is the very issue we are discussing here. As I said in an earlier message, the sutta description of the 8 path factors is far from clearly being a 'how to cultivate' guide. You might be interested to know that the abhidhamma contains extremely detailed descriptions of the different realities involved at the different levels of jhana. One would almost say there was a disproportionately large amount of such detail. Also, as you may have noticed, the suttas themselves contain relatively little about *how to cultivate* samatha/the jhanas (typically the references in the suttas either allude to someone who is developing or is already adept at this practice, or they describe the role of samadhi (concentration) in various attainments including but not exclusively insight). The greatest detail on the 'how to' of samatha/concentration is to be found in that reputedly "abhidhammic" commentary the Visuddhimagga (in my copy, pages 85 to 434 deal with concentration, vs. pages 435 to 740 for understanding) and there is also quite a lot of detail in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha . So I don't think there's any 'anti-samatha' bias in the abhidhamma . ;-)) In another post (to Nina) you say: I wonder if there is a special reason why Abhidhamma followers seem to emphasize the 'dry insight' approach. I think any apparent emphasis is simply the appreciation that, if the development of vipassana is something that can take place independently of the development of samatha (even though both may also be developed in parallel), then the priority should be to find out as much as possible about the former in the limited time available. This does not mean ignoring samatha, any more than it means ignoring other forms of kusala, but it means appreciating the rarity of this opportunity of having the essence of the dhamma available (there will be plenty of lifetimes in the future when there will be no dhamma, only teachings on other forms of kusala, including the jhanas). Nor does it mean that those who understand the subtlety of the Buddha's teaching on this point have no personal interest in the development of samatha. But, to paraphrase Howard, if there was time for the study of only one or the other, is there any doubt as to what the choice should be? Jon 12469 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Larry, Nina and friends, Thank you so much for your great help. I had confused the vipaka citas with vipaka of a wrong deed too. That was one main point of confusion. Larry: in your mail you said, >In this life, all these vipaka are results of kusala or >akusala in previous life times; This may or may not be the case as vipaka comes in 4 stages. This life, next life, whenever until nibbana and Ahosi or written off. Thank you again, ~with meththa ranil 12470 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "unpleasant words" -DAN Dear Dan, A quick reply before you disappear;-) ..... --- onco111 wrote: > Hi Sarah, S:>>Sometimes, I think we can generalise and speak more > conventionally > > too. For example, if someone is angry and shouts, perhaps it's fair > to > > mention the akusala vipaka of those that hear the sounds? Maybe > not ? I'd > > be glad to hear any more of your considerations on this topic. > D:> What akusala vipaka? ..... I was referring to the sounds only. Of course, as soon as there is any idea of harshness, words or dosa, it is not the vipaka citta of hearing. I don’t think there’s any dispute about this. ..... D:>The domanassa that doesn't like the words? Or > the implication of the tones? Those are dosa-mula-citta, not akusala > vipaka. To say that there is akusala vipaka is utter speculation, but > the akusala kamma is easy to see. It just confuses the issue to speak > of the akusala vipaka of hearing unpleasant words. ..... These weren’t my words, so I’ll leave that thread;-) I agree that when there is the hearing of any sound (we can call it loud or soft perhaps), it is speculation only when we refer to it as akusala vipaka. To give another example which doesn’t relate to another’s akusala cittas or kamma, the other night we had a lot of thunder and I kept waking up. I would speculate that the hearing of the loud sound was akusala vipaka, but who knows? You’ve raised an interesting question about whether it’s of any value to say it is. The seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting is accompanied by neutral feeling and it helps to reflect on this. The bodysense experiencing is accompanied by pleasant or painful bodily feeling and so it’s more accurate to say it’s akusala vipaka when the experience is accompanied by painful bodily feeling, but then again, how quickly this can be confused with the subsequent unpleasant mental feeling.. ..... D:>Instead, I like > the "akusala kamma of seeing words as unpleasant"--entirely different > meaning and implications, yet much more accurate. ..... I’d refer here to the subsequent akusala cittas accompanied by dosa, but this isn’t what I was referring to. ..... S:> > On the otherhand, your comments about whether we say `seeing > > sees/experiences visible object' or `there is the experience of > seeing (of > > visible object)' seemed to be something of a quibble to me. > D:> Immediately jumping to my mind is a story about a young squirrel who > asks a wise owl: "How much does a snowflake weigh?" The wise owl > replies: "Nothing at all." "Then I just saw a branch break under the > weight of a whole lot of nothing." ..... ;-) ..... D:> The distinction between "citta experiences" and "there is (mere) > experiencing" is so critical that I don't think it's an > understatement at all to say that without clear understanding of the > distinction, there is no understanding abhidhamma. > > Whenever I see "citta experiences," it gives me pause. I know it > appears occasionally in the commentaries, especially when the terms > are defined. But the English gives a definite sense of reification > that I believe is lacking in the Pali. ..... I understand your point and I understand the difficulty of translating the Pali. However, with respect, I have met and read the works by many Pali scholars who are very familiar with the Pali Tipitaka (far, far more familiar than I’ll ever be) but who read even the Abhidhamma with an idea of self and control. ..... D;>Instead of, say, "It is called > citta because it cittizes," it makes more sense to say, "Citta is so- > named because there is cittizing." I haven't looked up the Pali yet, > but I'd bet there is no explicit "it" in what might be translated > as "it cittizes"--just a verb, albeit with inflection but no > separate "it" I'll warrant. [Sorry I don't have time to find a > precise Pali phrase and translation for you here]. My impression is > that the reification of citta in the commentaries is not common (esp. > outside the definitions) and that the apparent reifications do not > have the force in Pali grammar that they do in English. ..... Well, I hope no one introduces ‘cittizes’ or ‘cittizing’ (ouch!) but I do appreciate the points. However, when there is the tendency to reify, it will reify regardless, I believe and vice versa. I used to read some of the early PTS translations and be very off-put by the translator’s own understanding which would creep in. Now I’m so used to it, I read between the lines. Here are two examples from the Dhammasangani transl: “What on that occasion is thought (cittam)? The thought which on that occasion is ideation, mind, heart, that which is clear, ideation as the sphere of mind, the faculty of mind, intellection, the skandha of intellection, the appropriate element of representative intellection - this is the thought that there then is.” “What on that occasion is self-collectedness (citass’ekaggata)? the stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought ...” ..... My point is just that when we’re ‘put-off’ it really is just an indication of dosa. Nowadays I read the best translations I can find, but really appreciate the incredible amount of work that went into making these texts available and accessible and follow them as best I can according to any understanding *I* have developed through my own good fortune to have heard the explanations I have. Always glad to hear your comments and hope all your family are doing well. Sarah ================== 12471 From: Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "unpleasant words" -DAN Hi, Dan (and Sarah) - Dan, I consider this post of yours to be very important. As I see it, an analysis of the type you make here is essential for salvaging the Abhidhamma from rejection by many devoted Buddhists. In a message dated 4/4/02 9:21:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, dalthorp@o... writes: > > Hi Sarah, Just a few quick comments on the note you directed me to... > > You write: > > doubts. Sometimes, I think we can generalise and speak more > conventionally > > too. For example, if someone is angry and shouts, perhaps it's fair > to > > mention the akusala vipaka of those that hear the sounds? Maybe > not ? I'd > > be glad to hear any more of your considerations on this topic. > > What akusala vipaka? The domanassa that doesn't like the words? Or > the implication of the tones? Those are dosa-mula-citta, not akusala > vipaka. To say that there is akusala vipaka is utter speculation, but > the akusala kamma is easy to see. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I sure do agree! ("Utter speculation" is dead on!) -------------------------------------------------- It just confuses the issue to speak > of the akusala vipaka of hearing > unpleasant words. Instead, I like > the "akusala kamma of seeing words as unpleasant"--entirely different > meaning and implications, yet much more accurate. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think the distinction you make here is excellent and important. One disclaimer: I think that 'vipaka' may still make more sense here than 'kamma'. As I see it, agreeing with you, it is typically unknowable whether or not the mere hearing of unpleasant words, and having those words directed at one, is kamma vipaka. It might be; it might not. However, it is a certainty, I would think, that the experiencing of them as unpleasant (which is really to say the experiencing of unpleasant feeling resulting from the hearing) is the fruition of kamma. Words that we hear, in and of themselves, would typically result in only neutral sensation, but the cognitive evaluation to follow, based on ones kammic predispositions, could lead to unpleasant or pleasant sensation. That would be kamma vipaka. Then, a *subsequent* reaction of aversion or grasping would, as I see it, constitute new kamma. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > On the otherhand, your comments about whether we say `seeing > > sees/experiences visible object' or `there is the experience of > seeing (of > > visible object)' seemed to be something of a quibble to me. > > Immediately jumping to my mind is a story about a young squirrel who > asks a wise owl: "How much does a snowflake weigh?" The wise owl > replies: "Nothing at all." "Then I just saw a branch break under the > weight of a whole lot of nothing." > > The distinction between "citta experiences" and "there is (mere) > experiencing" is so critical that I don't think it's an > understatement at all to say that without clear understanding of the > distinction, there is no understanding abhidhamma. > > Whenever I see "citta experiences," it gives me pause. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And me as well! That type of locution is, to me, a form of I-making, of agency- creation, and leads one away from impersonalism. -------------------------------------------------------- I know it > > appears occasionally in the commentaries, especially when the terms > are defined. But the English gives a definite sense of reification > that I believe is lacking in the Pali. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I can't comment on the Pali sense, but I completely concur with respect to the English. ------------------------------------------------------ Instead of, say, "It is called > > citta because it cittizes," it makes more sense to say, "Citta is so- > named because there is cittizing." I haven't looked up the Pali yet, > but I'd bet there is no explicit "it" in what might be translated > as "it cittizes"--just a verb, albeit with inflection but no > separate "it" I'll warrant. [Sorry I don't have time to find a > precise Pali phrase and translation for you here]. My impression is > that the reification of citta in the commentaries is not common (esp. > outside the definitions) and that the apparent reifications do not > have the force in Pali grammar that they do in English. > > Dan > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12472 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 9:02am Subject: Re: [dsg]realities and concepts op 04-04-2002 01:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I just realized my error. These concepts that are bound-up > with lobha,dosa,moha are ditthi (views, a cetasika) and as such are > realities. What about alobha, adosa, amoha? I would think they would > need some sort of conceptual reference point also. Would that still be > wrong view because they are concepts? > ----------------- > Larry wrote: Thanks Nina for this reply. A. Sujin's explanation adds > some precision but I don't know if it changes my mind. My point was that > attachment (for example) is a kind of glue that attaches two concepts, > "me" and "something else", coffee for example. If we take the concepts > away, what reality does attachment have? Whether or not the glue itself > is in any way conceptual, I don't know; but I will have a question about > that when we get to sanna. Dear Larry, I do not quite understand your question. What if we leave out the concepts for a while, and only speak about realities? Attachment itself likes certain objects, such as flavour. Attachment is not a person, it is a reality. The comparison with glue may be confusing. I know the simile of the monkey lime has been used, but should we not rather say, attachment glues itself to objects, any object, be it reality or concept? I do not see that there has to be wrong view because of a concept. Not necessarily. Another point: there can be adosa towards a reality, such as heat. There can be aversion towards a reality such as heat. In a sense-door process, because of accumulations,there can be the arising of aversion or attachment, before knowing what sometyhing is in conventional sense. Sorry I cannot answer your question very well. I noticed the word sense cittas, but I prefer sense-cognitions, I took from Ven. Bodhi. Is it in one of my old prints? The one that people adapted to the Thai edition? Best wishes from Nina. 12473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 9:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2, Num's corrections op 05-04-2002 00:14 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > > > Num : The British borrowed the word jungle from India, jangala = jungle. > Well, an English wood is not a jungle. Here are some history of the word I > got from Oxford & Webster websites: > > ****************************** > In India, originally, as a native word, Waste or uncultivated ground (= > 'forest' in the original sense); then, such land overgrown with brushwood, > long grass, etc.; hence, in Anglo-Indian use, a. Land overgrown with > underwood, long grass, or tangled vegetation; also, the luxuriant and often > almost impenetrable growth of vegetation covering such a tract. b. with a > and pl. A particular tract or piece of land so covered; esp. as the > dwelling-place of wild beasts. [Oxford] > > [Ultimately from Sanskrit ja galam, desert, wasteland, uncultivated area, > from ja gala-, desert, waste.] \Jun"gle\, n. [Hind. jangal desert, forest, > jungle; Skr. ja?gala desert.] A dense growth of brushwood, grasses, reeds, > vines, etc.; an almost impenetrable thicket of trees, canes, and reedy > vegetation, as in India, Africa, Australia, and Brazil. > [Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary]. > > ************************** > > I am not sure whether it means a desert or not. Esp. when it also mentions < > malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi> samuda can mean just any bodies of water. > There are some believes about the miasmas can cause cholera, malaria and > yellow fever. It just knew pretty recently that those diseases caused from --------------- > > Num: I guess > comes from Vi + Sama + Parihara. Vi = not, Sama = equal, even, impartial, > holistic or altogether and Parihara = attend, foster or keep. In Thai it > translated to inattentive caring of one's own body. Dear Num, you helped me a lot. I found in the dict. desert, but wasteland can cover more, and body of water the same. Adverse behaviour I took from Ven. Nyanaponoka, but agreed, inattentive care is better. I also liked your explanation of bile, very clear, and the psychical implications. Thank you very much, enjoying the teamwork on this text, Nina. 12474 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 9:02am Subject: corrected part of part 2 Co to Sivaka sutta and part 3. ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati, anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama. N: For those who live in a waste land a climate that is not ordinary (to them) arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in a wasteland or also at the shore of a body of water with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises from change of climate originates from (all ) that. visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani. N: , by carrying a heavy load or by pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time, who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on, that means arisen because of inattentive care of the body. Part 3: opakkamikaaniiti ``aya.m coro vaa paaradaariko vaa''ti gahetvaa ja.n.nukakapparamuggaraadiihi nippothanaupakkama.m paccaya.m katvaa uppannaani. N: , meaning, arisen, when people have arrested someone of whom they believe that he is a bandit or an adulterer, and when they injure him by means of beating him with knees, elbows or a club, and so on. eta.m bahi upakkama.m labhitvaa koci vuttanayeneva kusala.m karoti, koci akusala.m, koci adhivaasento nipajjati. N: As to those who have received such outward injury, some people, as in the aforesaid manner, perform kusala , some people commit akusala and some people lie down enduring it patiently. kammavipaakajaaniiti kevala.m kammavipaakato, jaataani. tesupi hi uppannesu vuttanayeneva koci kusala.m karoti, koci akusala.m, koci adhivaasento nipajjati. eva.m sabbavaaresu tividhaava vedanaa honti. N: , meaning, entirely arisen because it is the result of kamma. Also with reference to these feelings that have arisen, as in the aforesaid manner, some people perform kusala, some people commit akusala and some people lie down enduring it patiently. There is indeed in all the occasions threefold feeling. tattha purimehi sattahi kaara.nehi uppannaa saariirikaa vedanaa sakkaa pa.tibaahitu.m, kammavipaakajaana.m pana sabbabhesajjaanipi sabbaparittaanipi naala.m pa.tighaataaya. imasmi.m sutte lokavohaaro naama kathitoti. N: Here, with reference to the feelings arisen from the seven causes mentioned before, feelings connected with the body can be warded off, but as to the feelings that are the results of kamma, all medicines and all ways of protection are not suitable for warding them off. In this sutta conventional language has been used. My remarks: kaya-vi~n~naa.na, body-consciousness is always vipaka, it cannot be changed into something else. But in this commentary, the term saariirikaa vedanaa is used in the last para. Saariira means body, thus, I translated, connected with the body. That means all those instances of sickness, accidents, injury etc. It is said that conventional language is used in this sutta. When we consider feelings arising with kusala citta, akusala citta and maha-kiriyacitta (of the arahat) we understand that not all feelings are vipaka, results of kamma. The fact whether kamma will produce vipaka is also dependent on other factors that can be favorable for kusala kamma to produce kusala vipaka, or to prevent akusala kamma from producing akusala vipaka; or there can be unfavorable factors, preventing kusala kamma from producing kusala vipaka and conditioning akusala kamma to produce akusala vipaka. Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, mentions four factors that can be favorable or unfavorable (Tathagata's Powers,439, 440): 1: gati, destiny (plane where one is born). 2: Upadhi, substratum, meaning one may be born as a superior person or an inferior person. A beautiful person though born as a slave, may not be required to do dirty work. 3: kala, time, the time when one is born. 4: payoga, means. This can include one's conduct. For details, one can read those paras. I came across another sutta where I found in the footnote a reference to the Sivaka Sutta: Gradual Sayings Book of the Fours, Ch IX, §7, Kinds of Recluses, I quoted recently for Rob Ep, about the equisite recluse, who is the Buddha himself: ...Now, monks, if rightly speaking one would speak of the recluse exquisite among recluses, it is just of me that he would rightly use the words. For I, monks, when invited enjoy a plentiful supply of robes, but get little if uninvited; likewise as regards almsfood and the rest. With whatsoever fellows in the holy life I dwell, their behaviour (towards me) in action of body, speech and thought is generally pleasing, rarely displeasing. Again, as to those afflictions which originate from bile, phlegm, wind, from the union of bodily humours, from changes of seasons, from stress of circumstances, from personal assaults, or from ripeness of one's kamma, such do not trouble me much. I am free from sickness. As to the four jhanas, which belong to the higher thought (adhicitta)... I am a winner of them at will. By destroying the asavas I reach the heart's release... and abide therein. So monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse exquisite among recluses, it is just of me that he would rightly speak... Footnote to stress of circumstances: visama-parihaarajaani, here, from sitting or standing too long, and a reference to the Sivaka sutta: untoward happenings. But with Num I think better would be: inattentive care of the body. Parihaara means protection or care. Nina. 12475 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 1:09pm Subject: Concentration Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 Samadhi Sutta Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Tue 18 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html 12476 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samatha and vipassana As for myself, my lifestyle is incompatible with jhana and I have no > inclinations to it. In the Buddha's time monks who had accumulations for > jhana could cultivate it, they could lead a secluded life, no noise. Noise > is an ennemy to jhana. Jhana is extremely difficult, as Kom has explained > before in a former post, many conditions have to be fulfilled and great > panna is necessary, panna that knows very precisely when the citta is > kusala, and when there is some subtle clinging, or expecting something. Nina, I think that instead of seeing one's own lifestyle is incompatible with jhana, it would be more beneficial to see that right concentration is a skillful quality that is yet to be developed. As I see it, it would be skillful for one to generate desire, to endeavor, to activate persistence, to uphold & exert one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html Regards, Victor 12477 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch 2. (21-24) Dear Goglerr, --- goglerr wrote: > Answers to questions. I appreciate your careful consideration of abhidhamma and hope you're finding the ADL corner discussions useful too. I see Kom has added some comments for further consideration on these points. May I also welcome you on dsg and look f/w to hearing more comments or responses from you. If you'd like to add anything else about your interest in dhamma (and abhidhamma) we'd all be glad to hear. Best wishes, Sarah ========= > > Questions > > 1. Which paramattha dhammas are nama? > Nibbana, cetasika & citta > 2. Which paramattha dhammas are sankhara dhammas (conditioned > realities)? > Cetasika, citta & rupa > 3. Which paramattha dhamma is visankhara dhamma (unconditioned > reality)? > Nibbana > 4. Which sankhara dhammas (conditioned realities) are nama? > Cetasika & citta > 5. Are all cetasikas sankharakkhandha? > Yes > 6. Is vedana cetasika (feeling) a khandha? > Yes > 7. Is sanna cetasika (perception) a khandha? > Yes > 8. Is bodily painful feeling vipaka? > Yes > 9. Is mental unpleasant feeling vipaka? > Yes > 10. Which khandhas are nama? > Vedana, sanna, sankhara & citta > 11. Is seeing-consciousness a khandha? > Yes, under cittakhandha > 12. Is the concept 'human being' a khandha? > No. > 13. Is sound a khandha? > Yes, under rupakhandha. > 14. Which paramattha dhammas are khandhas? > Cetasika, Citta & Rupa 12478 From: goglerr Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 9:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ADL ch 2. (21-24) Question: Sankharakkhandha has a different meaning from sankhara- dhamma. What are sankharakkhandha? Sankhara – mental activities/formation. Khandha –aggregate or group. Cetasika – mental factor. Sankharakkhandha is the aggregate of mental activities such as the activities of anger, greed, concentration, mindfulness, non-greed, non-delusion and so forth. Feeling (vedana) is also a form of sankhara, so too with perception (sanna – loosely translated). Feeling and perception, due their grossness and prominence, they formed or enmassed into their respective aggregates. In this contact, we refer sankhara as the dynamics of the mind, multiple mind processes, which are interrelated to one another and usually dominated by intention. Question: Are all the cetasikas sankharakkhandha? Yes. When we refer to cetasika, they are mental factors which, so to speak, which color the mind. They are (also same above) such as greed, aversion, concentration, also feeling and perception and so forth. All together there are 52 types of mental factors (50 plus feeling and perception = 52). When we refer to cetasika, we are referring to its particular individual essence per se, i.e. the characteristics, function, manifestation. It is just like we are talking about the various dynamics of an engine and the various individual parts/components of an engine (each part having a different characteristic, performing different function etc.). Question: Why is bodily painful feeling vipaka? Why do you say mental unpleasant feeling is vipaka? Due to sense contact, feeling arises. Therefore 6 sense-contacts are the causes and feelings are the effect (vipaka). When the objects (the striker) impinge on their respective sense doors (eye door, ear, nose…..& mind – the receiver), respective consciousness arises (the ignition). When the striker, the receiver and the ignition are interconnected, by natural cause or automatically, various feeling arises. If the objects are unpleasant, feelings are unpleasant. In the practical manner, these careful direct observances, NOT through deep reflection or deep pondering, but through mindfulness practice these above phenomena can be directly experience first hand. Question: What does unpleasant mental feeling arise with? Unpleasant mental feeeling arises with aversion (the root cause) > > Questions > > > > 5. Are all cetasikas sankharakkhandha? > > Yes > > Sankharakkhandha has a different meaning from > sankhara-dhamma. What are sankharakkhandha? Are all the > cetasikas sankharakkhandha? > > > 8. Is bodily painful feeling vipaka? > > Yes > > 9. Is mental unpleasant feeling vipaka? > > Yes > > Why is bodily painful feeling vipaka? Why do you say mental > unpleasant feeling is vipaka? What does unpleasant mental > feeling arise with? > > kom 12479 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 11:21pm Subject: Sri Lanka corner Dear All, A small group of us from dsg will be going on a short trip to Sri Lanka soon (early June) with a large group from Thailand. We’ll be visiting most the Buddhist holy places and I’m currently re-reading the Mahavamsa, the Great (Ancient) Chronicle of Ceylon (Sri Lanka) written by Mahanama. Originally it only came down to the arrival of Mahinda in Sri lanka but was added to later to continue until the 4th century. It was one of the commentary texts preserved by the monks of the Mahavihara in Anuradhapura which Buddhaghosa bases his Introduction to the Vinaya (Bahiranidana) on. I believe, the PaliTipitaka is only accessible to us today, as complete as it, due to the theras in Sri Lanka over the last two centuries. .......... I’d like to post a few extracts when I have time (maybe once a week ‘til we go) which may be of interest to others in the group and to some like Michael & Tadao who have spent many years in Sri lanka. I’ll be very glad to hear any comments, corrections or elaborations from Gayan, Ranil, Sumane or anyone else too. (Actually, it's also an excuse to encourage me to finish reading and consider the text in advance as I'm sure I never read it to the end before;-)) .......... The Mahavamsa contains some of the oldest accounts of the 3 Councils and I referred to the Mahavamsa’s account of the 1st council when I was writing about the authenticity of the Abhidhamma and commentaries in the accounts from the Bahiranidana before. ..... The Second council took place 100 years after the Buddha’s death in 383 B.C (approx) on account of the ‘relaxing of monastic discipline’.In the Mahavmsa after the description of events, we read “And thus did the great theras refute the teaching of those ten thousand heretical bhikkhus who maintained ten points.” ..... The Third council took place, about 130 years later, during the reign of King Asoka in 247 B.C.and lasted for 9 months. From Geiger’s introduction to the Mahavamsa, I’m reading: “At the time of the Third council the canonical literature of the dhamma and Vinaya, as we no have it in the Pali recension, was evidently completed in essentials. ......” This includes the complete Abhidhamma Pitaka including th Kathavatthu (The Points of controversy I was quoting from the other day). We read in the Mahavamsa (V,278): “Out of the great number of the brotherhood of bhikkhus the thera chose a thousand learned bhikkhus, endowed with the six supernormal powers, knowing the three pitakas and versed in the special sciences, to make a compilation of the true doctrine. Together with them did he, in the Asokarama, make a compilation of the true dhamma. Even as the thera Mahakassapa and the thera Yasa had held a council so did the thera Tissa. In the midst of this council the thera Tissa set forth the Kathavatthuppakarana, refuting the other doctrines. Thus was this council under the protection of king Asoka ended by the thousand bhikkhus in nine months. In the seventeenth year of the king’s reign the wise (thera) who was seventy-two years old, closed the council with a great pavarana-ceremony. And, as if to shout applause to the reestablishment of doctrine, the great earth shook at the close of the council.” Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 11:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch 2. (21-24) Dear goglerr, Thank you for your excellent and detailed explanation of the relationship between the 3 kandhas and the cetasikas. Some additions, if you don't mind... > -----Original Message----- > From: goglerr [mailto:goglerr@y...] > > Question: Sankharakkhandha has a different > meaning from sankhara- > dhamma. What are sankharakkhandha? Sankhara (formed) dhammas include all the conditioned dhammas: all 5 kandhas. They are formed by conditions, and they fall alway immediately. Sankhara dhamma are further explained to be sankhata-dhammas. I think this explicity shows that not only that the 5 kandhas are formed, but they must fall away also. The Buddhas explains his teachings in intricate details so that we don't have misunderstandings about formed dhammas. > Khandha –aggregate or group. > Cetasika – mental factor. > > Sankharakkhandha is the aggregate of mental > activities such as the > activities of anger, greed, concentration, > mindfulness, non-greed, > non-delusion and so forth. > Feeling (vedana) is > also a form of > sankhara, so too with perception (sanna – loosely > translated). > Feeling and perception, due their grossness and > prominence, they > formed or enmassed into their respective > aggregates. > In this contact [context?], > we refer sankhara as the dynamics of the mind, > multiple mind > processes, which are interrelated to one another > and usually > dominated by intention. > > Question: Are all the cetasikas sankharakkhandha? There are 52 cetasikas, which are categorized into the 3 kandhas. As you mentioned (and explained briefly why it is so), the vedana cetasika is the vedana kandha, the sanna cetasika is the sanna kandha, but only 50 cetasikas are considered sankhara-kandhas. All sankhara kandhas are sankhara dhammas, but not all sankahara dhammas are sankhara kandhas. All the cetasikas are sankhara-dhamma, but not all the cetasikas (excluding vedana and sanna) are sankhara-kandhas. Although this is a minor detail (incomparable to the understanding of the realities itself), I thinking it is helpful to know this so we don't get confused when studying the teachings further. > Yes. When we refer to cetasika, they are mental > factors which, so to > speak, which color the mind. They are (also same > above) such as > greed, aversion, concentration, also feeling and > perception and so > forth. All together there are 52 types of mental > factors (50 plus > feeling and perception = 52). When we refer to > cetasika, we are > referring to its particular individual essence > per se, i.e. the > characteristics, function, manifestation. Excellent. Looking forward to hearing more explanations about kandhas from you. > It is > just like we are > talking about the various dynamics of an engine > and the various > individual parts/components of an engine (each > part having a > different characteristic, performing different > function etc.). > > Question: Why is bodily painful feeling vipaka? > Why do you say mental > unpleasant feeling is vipaka? > Due to sense contact, feeling arises. Therefore 6 > sense-contacts are > the causes and feelings are the effect (vipaka). Thank you for explaining that without contact, feeling cannot arise. Contact conditions feeling to arise: contact is the conditioning dhamma (pacaya-dhamma), and feeling is the conditioned dhamma (pacayu-panna dhamma) in this context. However, not all the conditioned dhamma (effect) is called vipaka. I believe vipaka dhammas are those resulted from kamma done in the past. The bodily feelings (painful or pleasant) are of the vipaka jati (birth) only, as they arise with kaya-vinanna citta (bodily conciousness, experincing hardness, softness, cold, heat, and tactile objects), a vipaka citta. Therefore, we can say that pleasant or unpleasant bodily feelings are necessarily results of past kamma. > Question: What does unpleasant mental feeling arise with? > Unpleasant mental feeeling arises with aversion > (the root cause) On the other hand, as you also points out, unpleasant mental feeling co-arises with aversion (the root cause) only. All the akusala root causes---lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion), and moha (delusion)---are by nature of akusala jati: they are not vipaka, not results of kamma. Because of the akusala jati, the intention co-arising with aversion and unpleasant mental feeling can cause vipaka consciosness in the future. When we have unpleasant mental feeling, we should understand that deeds, words, and thoughts due to the co-arising intention can result in future unpleasant effects. Bodily unpleasant feeling is a result, mental unpleasant feeling co-arises with a cause. > When the objects > (the striker) impinge on their respective sense > doors (eye door, ear, > nose…..& mind – the receiver), respective consciousness > arises (the ignition). When the striker, the > receiver and the > ignition are interconnected, by natural cause or > automatically, > various feeling arises. If the objects are > unpleasant, feelings are > unpleasant. Many thanks for explaining the conditionality of all these dhammas. > > In the practical manner, these careful direct > observances, NOT > through deep reflection or deep pondering, but > through mindfulness > practice these above phenomena can be directly > experience first hand. There are some in this group who says that deep reflections and deep ponderings are the conditioning factors for the "careful, direct" observances (satipathanna) to arise. Without the more mundane understanding of the dhamma at the hearing and the considering level, the direct and *correct* observances cannot arise. Thank you for your considerate and detailed answer. kom 12481 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 11:54pm Subject: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear All, In my life so far as a Buddhist - initially lassoo-ed by Dukkha - I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to have insight into Anatta, knowing that it was the unique teaching of Buddhism. It certainly was the most emphatically different teaching to those I had known in Christianity. Intellectual acceptance is one thing, 'knowing' it is another. But of the three universal characteristics of phenomena (anicca, dukkha, anatta), it has been Anicca (Impermanence/change) that has received the least of my attention. Dukkha overwhelms and forces its way into awareness; Anatta is initially so alien and frightening (no soul, no God, No Control) that it too claims attention. But Anicca - well, everyone knows things change...nothing earth shattering in that idea....... I think we see what we expect to see, what fits in with how we already view things, when reading and discussing. Studying ADL I have been concentrating on anatta, especially no-control, and so didn't really focus on how it would also present anicca. Last week I read an article by Ven. Bodhi that mentioned that Impermanence - Aniccata - is the root characteristic of the Buddha's teaching, the most fundamental characteristic, "which forms the basis for the other two." Another article said that of the three characteristics common to all sentient existence, the most important in the practice of Vipassana is anicca, and that the Buddha had said "that the comprehending of anicca leads automatically to a grasp of anatta and dukkha." Perhaps everyone else knew that, but somehow I had failed to take it in..... So, Anicca is not only important, but of crucial importance. I have found two suttas that apply - Loka sutta SN XXXV.82 and Anicca Sutta SN XXXVI.9. Bhikkhu Bodhi gives a succinct teaching on 'the three stages of becoming' - his eloquent turn of phrase helped me to see a little more clearly the three stages of momentary happenings. "The stable entities that we see are really bundles of events, "packages" of momentary flashings strung together by laws of conditionality." and "The body is made up of minute groups of material phenomena which are themselves actually streams of events arising and passing away with incredible speed. The change takes so fast that the eye and the mind cannot register it. If we twirl a glowing stick in the dark, the eye fuses the moving points of light into the shape of a circle, so it appears to be a solid circle of light. In the same way all material form is fused together into the appearance of a solid body, but the solid body is only a mental representation and not a reality." I found the phrase 'bundles of events' quite helpful. http://wwww.lanka.com/dhamma/dhamma/threeStages.htm It would seem also, that this anicca will have a surface explanation, fairly easily understood intellectually, but, like anatta, will also have depths of meaning to be gained by experience and insight. metta, Christine 12482 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 5:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] samatha and vipassana Dear Victor, Hope you don't mind me making a comment here. You said: I think that instead of seeing one's own lifestyle is incompatible with jhana, it would be more beneficial to see that right concentration is a skillful quality that is yet to be developed. As I see it, it would be skillful for one to generate desire, to endeavor, to activate persistence, to uphold & exert one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. Personally I don't think that seeing "one's lifestyle as incompatible with jhana" is necessarily a negative viewpoint, nor to see that "right concentration is a skillful quality that is yet to be developed" is a beneficial one. On the one hand is the acceptance of one's limitation and not being too concerned about it, on the other is following a projection that 'self' can choose to develop certain skills and doing whatever is necessary to achieve it. My opinion is that if the practice of jhana is a natural part of our daily activity, perhaps as a way to achieve temporary peace of mind, then it would make sense to explore it a little more deeply and find out how one can do it more correctly. As with any other activity that we do in the convetional world. But I do not think this is the case with most, if not all the people living in this day and age. But someone might believe that the deliberate training in concentration IS a teaching of the Buddha. Let me show why I do not believe this to be so.( Sorry I cannot argue on the basis of what is documented in the tipitaka, I am almost completely unknowledgable here.) One thing I've come to appreciate (much influenced by your own sutta references) since I was introduced to dsg and K.Sujin, is the fact about anatta and conditions. That dhammas rise and fall only because of conditions, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta,(hope I've understood this correctly) all uncontrollable. On the one hand there is the danger that one does not believe in kamma/ vipaka and so do not see kilesa as a threat, so one just follows the dictate of one's kilesa without knowing it. On the other hand one sees that because kilesas are an obstacle, one can purify one's cetana and hence believing and doing everything that seem to suggest that following it would lead to that goal. The dhammas arise and fall so fast, not only when we think we are aware of cetana but kilesa has already done it's job. The middle way is not something we can 'decide' to follow, it is when we are on the path. In the mean time, one admits one's shortcomings, not as a one time conclusion and then working from it, but being aware now. Seeing the arising and falling of dhamma or recognising the world of concept for what it is, is the recogniotion that nothing can be done, except to keep on listening and learning. Studying with lobha as a means to 'gain' can be known, studying with chanda with an acceptance that one does not really know and that there is much that one can learn from the teachings of the Buddha can also be known. In daily everyday life, I live in the conventional world of people, things, and events. Here I cannot help but 'do' things in order to gain or get rid of things. This is the world of avijja. But when studying and considering the dhamma there is an increasing appreciation of not having to do anything but only to keep on learning and observing. I hope I have not been too incoherent, when I read the above it looks more like a cut and paste job. Actually I was distracted a few times while writing this. And also there is the sanna that I meant to write more, but no recall of what that was. Best wishes, Sukin. 12483 From: egberdina Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 4:50am Subject: Re: sense bases-Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: Dear Sarah, I have been finding it a little difficult to take you seriously lately. What about this to renew my confidence? Take a conceptually sharp pencil (both the sharpness and the pencil), stab it repeatedly into both your conceptual eyes for about 5 minutes (it doesn't matter whether you take a wet or dry approach at this time), and then share with us the precise conditions required for seeing now. For the less advanced, don't try this unless you have survived on air sandwiches for more than two months. Herman > > Personally, when I consider cakkhu pasada (eye-sense/base) or any of the > bases, I don't find it very helpful to think about the organs, circles, > locations at all. What we're attempting to understand (even > intellectually) in the case of cakkhu pasada, is the rupa which arises and > falls away momentarily-- when the eyes are open--and if this occurrence is > `impacted' by visible object (another momentarily arising rupa) and they > condition seeing (momentarily arising nama) to arise, then there is the > experiencing of visible object through the eye sense. I don't think it's > necessary to think about or try to locate just where eye sense or other > senses are, because it is bound to be a long conceptual story as you say. > Perhaps it just depends on whether it helps to break down the idea of > organs and other concepts or builds them up further, as perhaps it does > for us. I found the discussions on ayatanas and the `meeting place' on the > needle point very helpful for considering the precise conditions required > for a moment of seeing now. 12484 From: manji Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 7:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Christine, Anatta is very much present in Christianity, it is called kenosis. There is much writing on it by monks and priests that are very solid in prayer. A text that helped bring about much auspicious insight is the Philokalia, which is a collection of letters between the ascetic monks and priests of the Orthodox Christian tradition. While most of the words convey a stronger element to them, this is understandable considering the era that these men wrote from. It is most amazing the way that they write about God, as there seems to be strong elements of emptiness. However, just as there may be Hindu aspects to some Buddhist schools, so perhaps there are the old testament aspects to the new testament. Need not say more on this issue. I find it interesting that they write about a suffering when God is "lost" from the heart, and perhaps this is similar with "There is suffering". To truly read their writings almost requires a very solid understanding as well as living kenosis. It may be difficult because, just like in Buddhism, there can be "taking for self". As regards anicca, the question a brother from the Christian tradition could ask is, "Is liberation permanent?" This question is just as valid as "Is God permanent?" If God is this emptiness we could ask "Is emptiness permanent?" And in Buddhism, direct perception of emptiness is an event, however brief or long. Yet there still is the path. Just as Buddhism has parinibanna, perhaps our brothers writing from the Christian monasteries of many years past or present have a parinibanna of their own. Of course, then again, a god, just as emptiness, can just be rupa, and thus be subject to anicca. Anyways, could write more, but its time to go. ;) -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:54 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) > > Dear All, > > In my life so far as a Buddhist - initially lassoo-ed by Dukkha - I > have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to have insight into > Anatta, knowing that it was the unique teaching of Buddhism. It > certainly was the most emphatically different teaching to those I had > known in Christianity. Intellectual acceptance is one > thing, 'knowing' it is another. > But of the three universal characteristics of phenomena (anicca, > dukkha, anatta), it has been Anicca (Impermanence/change) that has > received the least of my attention. Dukkha overwhelms and forces its > way into awareness; Anatta is initially so alien and frightening (no > soul, no God, No Control) that it too claims attention. But Anicca - > well, everyone knows things change...nothing earth shattering in that > idea....... I think we see what we expect to see, what fits in with > how we already view things, when reading and discussing. Studying > ADL I have been concentrating on anatta, especially no-control, and > so didn't really focus on how it would also present anicca. > Last week I read an article by Ven. Bodhi that mentioned that > Impermanence - Aniccata - is the root characteristic of the Buddha's > teaching, the most fundamental characteristic, "which forms the basis > for the other two." Another article said that of the three > characteristics common to all sentient existence, the most important > in the practice of Vipassana is anicca, and that the Buddha had > said "that the comprehending of anicca leads automatically to a grasp > of anatta and dukkha." > Perhaps everyone else knew that, but somehow I had failed to take it > in..... So, Anicca is not only important, but of crucial importance. > I have found two suttas that apply - Loka sutta SN XXXV.82 and Anicca > Sutta SN XXXVI.9. > Bhikkhu Bodhi gives a succinct teaching on 'the three stages of > becoming' - his eloquent turn of phrase helped me to see a little > more clearly the three stages of momentary happenings. "The stable > entities that we see are really bundles of events, "packages" of > momentary flashings strung together by laws of conditionality." > and "The body is made up of minute groups of material phenomena which > are themselves actually streams of events arising and passing away > with incredible speed. The change takes so fast that the eye and the > mind cannot register it. If we twirl a glowing stick in the dark, > the eye fuses the moving points of light into the shape of a circle, > so it appears to be a solid circle of light. In the same way all > material form is fused together into the appearance of a solid body, > but the solid body is only a mental representation and not a > reality." I found the phrase 'bundles of events' quite helpful. > http://wwww.lanka.com/dhamma/dhamma/threeStages.htm > It would seem also, that this anicca will have a surface explanation, > fairly easily understood intellectually, but, like anatta, will also > have depths of meaning to be gained by experience and insight. > > metta, > Christine 12485 From: Michael Newton Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > Dear Num, > yes that is right . I quoted the sutta from the > samyutta nikaya but > it is also in the vinaya pitaka. > In the vinaya the monk who did some of the killing > was a 'sham > recluse' - he wasn't among those who went to heaven. > best wishes > robert > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > > Dear Robert and Christine, > > > > Robert, is the quote you mentioned from the origin > of the 3rd > parajika ? I > > was too surprised that after the Buddha gave a > discourse about > asupa, he then > > went into a secluded place for half a month and a > lot of monks > completed > > suicide or asked another person to kill them. Good > to hear more > from the Co. > > > > > Hello!Robert; Have you heared of the Ven.Nanavira?He came to Sri Lanka with Ven.Nanamoli from England.They were Onford scholars.They ordained in Sri Lanka at the Island Hermitage under Ven.Nanatiloka. Ven.Nanamoli wrote or translated the Vishuddhi Magga.Ven.Nanavira,wrote a book called"Notes on Dhamma"that didn't really get finished cause Ven,Nanavira,took his own life,back in 1964.He was in poor health and lived in a remote part of Sri Lanka called Bundala.Ven.Nanavira's suicide created a controversy on the island.He was thought to be close to englightenment,but according to some-taking one's own life as a monk was questionable.Does anyone in this group know about this situation or have any comments on this situation.I'm a little divided within my own self over this.There is a website connected to Nanavira and tells the whole complete story.Very few people know about this. Thank you.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA WITH METTA, MICHAEL 12486 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Dear group, Considering this formulation of the 4 noble truths (below), it seems to me that suffering and the cause of suffering are the same. Dukkha = upadanakkhandha [upadana = lobha (imo), cause of dukkha = desire, lobha = desire (imo). Therefore dukkha and cause of dukkha are the same. Vipaka doesn't figure into the equation. Suffering, in this sense, is desire itself. comments? Larry ------------------ "Monks, I will teach You dukkha, the arising of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha, the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha. Do you listen to it. (In the English translation 'dukkha' is sometimes translated as 'suffering', sometimes as 'ill'. Here the English text has the word 'suffering'.) And what, monks, is dukkha? It is to be called the five khandhas of grasping. What five? The rupakkhandha of grasping, the vedanakkhandha of grasping, the sannakkhandha of grasping, the sankharakkhandha of grasping, the vinnanakkhandha of grasping. This, monks, is called dukkha. And what, monks, is the arising of dukkha? It is that craving... that leads downward to rebirth... the craving for feeling, for rebirth, for no rebirth... This, monks, is called the arising of dukkha. And what, monks, is the ceasing of dukkha? It is the utter passionless ceasing, the giving up, the abandonment of, the release from, the freedom from attachment to that craving... This, monks, is called the ceasing of dukkha. And what, monks, is the way going to the ceasing of dukkha? It is this Ariyan Eightfold Path... This, monks, is the way going to the ceasing of dukkha." 12487 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg]realities and concepts Dear Nina, maybe you are right. Maybe desire can arise without concepts. I will observe my desires and report back. regards, Larry ------------------------- Nina wrote: Dear Larry, I do not quite understand your question. What if we leave out the concepts for a while, and only speak about realities? Attachment itself likes certain objects, such as flavour. Attachment is not a person, it is a reality. The comparison with glue may be confusing. I know the simile of the monkey lime has been used, but should we not rather say, attachment glues itself to objects, any object, be it reality or concept? I do not see that there has to be wrong view because of a concept. Not necessarily. Another point: there can be adosa towards a reality, such as heat. There can be aversion towards a reality such as heat. In a sense-door process, because of accumulations,there can be the arising of aversion or attachment, before knowing what sometyhing is in conventional sense. Sorry I cannot answer your question very well. I noticed the word sense cittas, but I prefer sense-cognitions, I took from Ven. Bodhi. Is it in one of my old prints? The one that people adapted to the Thai edition? Best wishes from Nina. 12488 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 0:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Sorry, I left out the last point: desire causes desire. L ------------------------ Dear group, Considering this formulation of the 4 noble truths (below), it seems to me that suffering and the cause of suffering are the same. Dukkha = upadanakkhandha [upadana = lobha (imo), cause of dukkha = desire, lobha = desire (imo). Therefore dukkha and cause of dukkha are the same. Vipaka doesn't figure into the equation. Suffering, in this sense, is desire itself. comments? Larry 12489 From: Michael Newton Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > There were a large number of monks who killed > themselves after > developing loathsomeness of the body - a type of > samatha > (anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi). > The commentary says that this was because these > monks had done some > killing in a past life - they had been hunters and a > portion of this > kamma gained the opportunity to bring about their > deaths. While > suicide is certainly new kamma - because there is > deliberate > intention, this intention is also conditioned by > kamma done in the > past - although not as directly as if it were > vipaka. . The > commentary notes that the buddha knew that their > time was near and > gave them the subject of loathsomeness of the body > so that they would > become fearless and be reborn in heaven. > It might seem strange that a suicide could be born > in heaven but > although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can > happen that other > kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as > happened in this > case. . > There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who > also killed > themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting > their throats > realised their status, developed satipatthana and > went through the > stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant. > best wishes > robert > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion > of an action. > > Where does suicide fit into this definition? > Choice implies that a > > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look > at alternatives > > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide > happens when it > is > > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted > -- when within > the > > thinking processes of the suffering person no > other choices are > > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven > by pain (physical > or > > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading > something about > Channa, > > but does anyone have other buddhist > references/information/thoughts > > on this matter? > > > > metta, > > Christine > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in the group; I commented on this subject to Robert in a previous email to the group about the suicide of the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this is all tactfully discussed.Here it is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so maybe members of this group could go to this site and read it.Think his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL 12490 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 1:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Hello Michael, I was just reading your first post when the second arrived! It is very early sunday morning here in Brisbane ...... Thanks for posting the link. I have read some of Nanavira Theras writings previously, and will try to look at the website later today. (Though I wonder if he is considered to be a 'mainstream' theravada (even though a Bhikkhu? There does seem to be rather a 'silence' about his teachings, don't you think?) metta, christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Michael Newton wrote: > > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in the > group; > I commented on this subject to Robert in a previous > email to the group about the suicide of > the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have > found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this > is all tactfully discussed.Here it > is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so maybe members of > this group could go to this site and read it.Think > his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA > WITH METTA,MICHAEL 12491 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) <> Hi Larry, I am not sure I understand your point. Lobha also has a nature of dukkha, but not all dukkha are upadhana(lobha). All five khandhas are dukkha, but upadana refers to only lobha cetasika (grasping, craving or attachment). The word vipaka refers to resultant cittas and their accompanied cetasikas. Cittas and cetasikas are parts of 5 khandhas, so they are dukkha as well. In the sutta you quoted, lobha cetasika always co-arises with cetana cetasika. Cetana is kamma. When there is kamma, there will be a result. The sutta also says that <> Rebirth refers to rebirth citta, which is also a vipaka citta. Sorry, I am not sure I really understand your statement. It's nice to be able to match your name and your face. That's a nice pic. What are you doing in the pic? Whose hand is that? Have to go shopping and then will go running. Nice meeting you and best wishes. Num 12492 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 4:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- Dear Michael, Thanks for bringing this up. I read "Clearing the path" a few years ago, which explains Nanavira's ideas on Dhamma. I thought he understood and explained some aspects very well indeed but misunderstood some others. He was quite young when he died, about 44, my age. kind regards robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Michael Newton wrote: > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > -- > > Dear Num, > > yes that is right . I quoted the sutta from the > > samyutta nikaya but > > it is also in the vinaya pitaka. > > In the vinaya the monk who did some of the killing > > was a 'sham > > recluse' - he wasn't among those who went to heaven. > > best wishes > > robert > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > > > Dear Robert and Christine, > > > > > > Robert, is the quote you mentioned from the origin > > of the 3rd > > parajika ? I > > > was too surprised that after the Buddha gave a > > discourse about > > asupa, he then > > > went into a secluded place for half a month and a > > lot of monks > > completed > > > suicide or asked another person to kill them. Good > > to hear more > > from the Co. > > > > > > > > Hello!Robert; > Have you heared of the Ven.Nanavira?He came to > Sri Lanka with Ven.Nanamoli from England.They > were Onford scholars.They ordained in Sri Lanka > at the Island Hermitage under Ven.Nanatiloka. > Ven.Nanamoli wrote or translated the Vishuddhi > Magga.Ven.Nanavira,wrote a book called"Notes > on Dhamma"that didn't really get finished cause > Ven,Nanavira,took his own life,back in 1964.He was in > poor health and lived in a remote part of Sri > Lanka called Bundala.Ven.Nanavira's suicide > created a controversy on the island.He was thought to > be close to englightenment,but > according to some-taking one's own life as a > monk was questionable.Does anyone in this > group know about this situation or have any > comments on this situation.I'm a little divided > within my own self over this.There is a website > connected to Nanavira and tells the whole > complete story.Very few people know about this. > Thank you.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA WITH METTA, > MICHAEL > > 12493 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/6/02 3:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Dear group, > > Considering this formulation of the 4 noble truths (below), it seems to > me that suffering and the cause of suffering are the same. Dukkha = > upadanakkhandha [upadana = lobha (imo), cause of dukkha = desire, lobha > = desire (imo). Therefore dukkha and cause of dukkha are the same. > Vipaka doesn't figure into the equation. Suffering, in this sense, is > desire itself. > > comments? > Larry > ========================= This is exactly the way I think of it. As I see it, suffering is craving - either craving per se, which is the wanting (more than mere chanda) for things to be a certain way, or aversion, which is the wanting for things to be different from the way they are. In short, suffering is emotional dissatisfaction with things as they are, either because of a perceived unsatisfactory absence or because of a perceived unsatisfactory presence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12494 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Hi, Num (and Larry) - In a message dated 4/6/02 6:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, srnsk@a... writes: > All five khandhas are dukkha, but upadana > refers to only lobha cetasika (grasping, craving or attachment). ========================= The Buddha, while alive, "had" all five khandhas, but the Buddha was beyond suffering. So it cannot be the khandhas per se, that are dukkha, but the five khandhas affected by clinging. That's as I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12495 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 5:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Hi Num, how was the run? My point was that akusala vipaka is without roots while upadanakkhandha is _with_ roots. So the dukkha that is talked about in the 4 noble truths isn't vipaka. It is both cause and effect, at least in this sutta. Do you know of any commentaries or anything on paccaya in the second truth? (or maybe we should wait until we get to that in ADL) Also, what do you know about amoebiasis re: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/nanavira.htm ? Larry 12496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Hi Michael (Robert and Num) and All, I couldn't open the link you gave but used another link that seems to have brought me to the same place. "The Nanavira Thera Dhamma Page - An Alternative Approach to the Buddha's teaching." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/ Quote: "It cannot be expected that this material, which poses a clear challenge to the mainstream version of Buddhism, will gain any great popularity among the majority of Buddhists -- Eastern or Western -- but at least it can suggest an alternative approach to the Buddha's original Teaching, and perhaps serve as a useful eye-opener for those seeking an understanding of its more fundamental principles." I think I would prefer not to wander alone here as, in his letters 3, 79, and 83, Nanavira Thera is quite explicit in his consistently negative and sceptical view of the validity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. He calls it a kanha dhamma, a 'dark teaching'. However, regarding his suicide - It was his third (and finally successful) attempt at suicide. He contracted Typhoid and subsequently had been suffering for many years from the painful digestive condition of Amoebiasis. This, combined with medicine he was prescribed, had caused nervous damage/problems that resulted in him suffering as well from Satyriasis, (intolerable for anyone, but perhaps, more so for a monk) which made his meditation practice virtually impossible. He was a Jhana practitioner, and would have, no doubt, been able to suppress the hindrance of lust, except the physical pain of the amoebiasis made attaining Access Concentration almost impossible for him. As he seems to have become, or been convinced that he had become, a Sotapanna, I suppose he considered that there was no point to continuing - nothing further to gain. He used ethyl chloride and a polythene mask to achieve his purpose. He has been quite open in his intentions to suicide at some point after finishing a draft of his writings, and believed there would be no kammic fruit following from this act. 'Suicide and the Dhamma' - a compilation of some letters by Nanavira Thera http://www.lanka.net/bcc/nachap11.html This does raise once again the question of whether Buddhism condones or is ambivalent about suicide in some instances. Is there one rule for the arahat and one rule for the rest of us? (This logic does not seem to be appled to stealing, lying, sexual misconduct etc. but seems to be implied by some where taking ones own life is concerned.). metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Michael Newton wrote: > > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in the > group; > I commented on this subject to Robert in a previous > email to the group about the suicide of > the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have > found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this > is all tactfully discussed.Here it > is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so maybe members of > this group could go to this site and read it.Think > his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA > WITH METTA,MICHAEL 12497 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Hi Michael, interesting guy, worthy of further study. Thanks, Larry 12498 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Hi Howard, this is an interesting point of controversy (below). I think there are places where the Buddha says the khandhas (without the emphasis of "upadana") are dukkha. The way I am understanding this (at this point) is that the khandhas are pervaded by upadana and it isn't necessary to add "upadana"; so I think nibbana, even in this life, is somehow *other*. Not real sure... Larry --------------------- Howard wrote: The Buddha, while alive, "had" all five khandhas, but the Buddha was beyond suffering. So it cannot be the khandhas per se, that are dukkha, but the five khandhas affected by clinging. That's as I see it. 12499 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 7:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- Dear Christine, Nanavira rejected the ancient commentaries as well as the Abhidhamma. He says Channa was an arahant when he committed suicide; However, the commentary explains that channa was not even a sotapanna when he cut his throat but that he was able to insight the pain and quickly develop the stages of vipassana and attain arahantship in the few minutes before he died. I had to look up 'satyriasis'; Websters: abnormal sexual craving in the male. Suicide is perhaps not quite the same as breaking the precept against killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life of another who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Michael (Robert and Num) and All, > > I couldn't open the link you gave but used another link that seems to > have brought me to the same place. > "The Nanavira Thera Dhamma Page - An Alternative Approach to the > Buddha's teaching." > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/ > Quote: "It cannot be expected that this material, which poses a clear > challenge to the mainstream version of Buddhism, will gain any great > popularity among the majority of Buddhists -- Eastern or Western -- > but at least it can suggest an alternative approach to the Buddha's > original Teaching, and perhaps serve as a useful eye-opener for those > seeking an understanding of its more fundamental principles." > > I think I would prefer not to wander alone here as, in his letters 3, > 79, and 83, Nanavira Thera is quite explicit in his consistently > negative and sceptical view of the validity of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. He calls it a kanha dhamma, a 'dark teaching'. > > However, regarding his suicide - > It was his third (and finally successful) attempt at suicide. He > contracted Typhoid and subsequently had been suffering for many years > from the painful digestive condition of Amoebiasis. This, combined > with medicine he was prescribed, had caused nervous damage/problems > that resulted in him suffering as well from Satyriasis, (intolerable > for anyone, but perhaps, more so for a monk) which made his > meditation practice virtually impossible. He was a Jhana > practitioner, and would have, no doubt, been able to suppress the > hindrance of lust, except the physical pain of the amoebiasis made > attaining Access Concentration almost impossible for him. As he > seems to have become, or been convinced that he had become, a > Sotapanna, I suppose he considered that there was no point to > continuing - nothing further to gain. He used ethyl chloride and a > polythene mask to achieve his purpose. > He has been quite open in his intentions to suicide at some point > after finishing a draft of his writings, and believed there would be > no kammic fruit following from this act. > 'Suicide and the Dhamma' - a compilation of some letters by Nanavira > Thera > http://www.lanka.net/bcc/nachap11.html > > This does raise once again the question of whether Buddhism condones > or is ambivalent about suicide in some instances. Is there one rule > for the arahat and one rule for the rest of us? (This logic does not > seem to be appled to stealing, lying, sexual misconduct etc. but > seems to be implied by some where taking ones own life is concerned.). > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Michael Newton > wrote: > > > > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in the > > group; > > I commented on this subject to Robert in a previous > > email to the group about the suicide of > > the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have > > found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this > > is all tactfully discussed.Here it > > is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so maybe members of > > this group could go to this site and read it.Think > > his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE DHAMMA > > WITH METTA,MICHAEL 12500 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 7:37pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Sabhava and Abhidhamma --- In dhamma-list@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: ---Dear , Karunadasa seems to put the Theravada position correctly on this matter.I don't know if I have anything useful to add, but you might like to read this note I wrote to a mahayana monk while back: Dear Venerable ..., Thank you for the information comparing the vinayas – so many similarities. You referred to my comment: "In another > sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- > there were only moments of > changing phenomena." And you said : "This sounds like it could have come right out of one > of the Mahayana > Prajna-Paramita Sutras. However, the Prajna Sutras > would also say even > cittas, cetasikas and rupas cannot be got at. > > Sincerely, in Dharma, H" Glad you could understand what I meant - it might seem a bit strange to some. Now a few words on the nature of dhammas (cittas, cetasikas and rupas- he five aggregates). The word dhamma is often translated as reality. But the word reality in English has connotations of something substantial whereas dhammas , are too evanescent to imagine. As I said recently on this list. Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. Take a moment of seeing: For seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma. But it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the theravada is not quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as the Prajna- parimita sutta, it does nevertheless demolish any ideas of substantiality. I think this needs consideration as we(I mean Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of mind, and so on. However what we mean by moments is rather open to interpretation. However from the Patthana - the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that "moments" are extraordinarily complex instants in time with influences from past and present factors. The dhammas themselevs are not different from the quality they posses. In fact the atthasalini says that "there is no other thing than the quality born by it" . And no moment is identical with another-It is true that such dhammas as sanna(perception) or vedana (feeling) or vinnana (consciouness) are classified under the same heading but the actual quality is influenced by so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of feeling is exactly the same. I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atom (This is sort of how I saw things in my early days) is not correct. best wishes robert p.s.: Here is a section from the Mulapariyaya sutta (bodhi p38-39): The Exposition of the Root of all dhammas (sabbadhammamulapariyaya): The Majjhimanikaya-atthakatha (commentary) explains dhammas "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." Now this quote from the commentary may make you wonder if the characteristics are something different from the actual dhammas but of course this is not the case. The majjhimanikaya-tika says "these dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And though there is no real distinction (between these dhammas and their characteristics), still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device (upacaramatta)." In dhamma-list@y... wrote: > Hi all: > > I will be out the rest of the night with family, but thought you might like to > read more from Karunadasa on the Theravada understanding of sabhava and > dhammas. The following is an excerpt from his excellent book "Dhamma Theory" > which is now available for free online at > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha227.htm > > Hope you enjoy, and see you tomorrow. > > ------- > > Another doctrinal controversy that has left its mark on the Theravada version > of the dhamma theory is the one concerning the theory of tri- temporal > existence (sarvamastivada). What is revolutionary about this theory, advanced > by the Sarvastivadins, is that it introduced a metaphysical dimension to the > doctrine of dhammas and thus paved the way for the erosion of its empirical > foundation. For this theory makes an empirically unverifiable distinction > between the actual being of the dhammas as phenomena and their ideal being as > noumena. It assumes that the substances of all dhammas persist in all the > three divisions of time -- past, present, and future -- while their > manifestations as phenomena are impermanent and subject to change. > Accordingly, a dhamma actualizes itself only in the present moment of time, > but "in essence" it continues to subsist in all the three temporal periods. As > is well known, this resulted in the transformation of the dhamma theory into a > svabhavavada, "the doctrine of own-nature." It also paved the way for a veiled > recognition, if not for a categorical assumption, of the distinction between > substance and quality. What interests us here is the fact that although the > Theravadins rejected this metaphysical theory of tri-temporal existence, > including its qualified version as accepted by the Kasyapiyas,23 it was not > without its influence on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory. > > This influence is to be seen in the post-canonical exegetical literature of > Sri Lanka where, for the first time, the term sabhava (Skt svabhava) came to > be used as a synonym for dhamma. Hence the recurrent definition: "Dhammas are > so called because they bear their own nature" (attano sabhavat dharenti ti > dhamma).24 Now the question that arises here is whether the Theravadins used > the term sabhava in the same sense as the Sarvastivadins did. Did the > Theravadins assume the metaphysical view that the substance of a dhamma > persists throughout the three phases of time? In other words, does this amount > to the admission that there is a duality between the dhamma and its sabhava, > between the bearer and the borne, a dichotomy which goes against the grain of > the Buddhist doctrine of anatta? > > This situation has to be considered in the context of the logical apparatus > used by the Abhidhammikas in defining the dhammas. This involves three main > kinds of definition. The first is called agency definition (kattu- sadhana) > because it attributes agency to the thing to be defined. Such, for example, is > the definition of citta (consciousness) as "that which thinks" (cinteti ti > cittat).25 The second is called instrumental definition (karana- sadhana) > because it attributes instrumentality to the thing to be defined. Such, for > example, is the definition of citta as "that through which one thinks" > (cinteti ti etena cittat).26 The third is called definition by nature > (bhava-sadhana) whereby the abstract nature of the thing to be defined is > brought into focus. Such, for example, is the definition," The mere act of > thinking itself is citta (cintanamattam eva cittat)." 27 > > The first two kinds of definition, it is maintained, are provisional and as > such are not valid from an ultimate point of view.28 This is because the > attribution of agency and instrumentality invests a dhamma with a duality when > it is actually a unitary and unique phenomenon. Such attribution also leads to > the wrong assumption that a given dhamma is a substance with inherent > qualities or an agent which performs some kind of action. Such definitions are > said to be based on tentative attribution (samaropana)29 and thus are not > ultimately valid.30 It is as a matter of convention (vohara), and for the sole > purpose of facilitating the grasp of the idea to be conveyed,31 that a duality > is assumed by the mind in defining the dhamma, which is actually devoid of > such duality.32 Thus both agency and instrumental definitions are resorted to > for the convenience of description, and as such they are not to be understood > in their direct literal sense. On the other hand, what is called definition by > nature (bhavasadhana) is the one that is admissible in an ultimate sense.33 > This is because this type of definition brings into focus the real nature of a > given dhamma without attributing agency or instrumentality to it, an > attribution which creates the false notion that there is a duality within a > unitary dhamma. > > It is in the context of these implications that the definition of dhamma as > that which bears its own nature has to be understood. Clearly, this is a > definition according to agency (kattu-sadhana), and hence its validity is > provisional. From this definition, therefore, one cannot conclude that a given > dhamma is a substantial bearer of its qualities or "own-nature." The duality > between dhamma and sabhava is only an attribution made for the convenience of > definition. For in actual fact both terms denote the same actuality. Hence it > is categorically stated that apart from sabhava there is no distinct entity > called a dhamma,34 and that the term sabhava signifies the mere fact of being > a dhamma.35 > > If the dhamma has no function distinct from its sabhava,36 and if dhamma and > sabhava denote the same thing,37 why is the dhamma invested with the function > of bearing its own-nature? For this implies the recognition of an agency > distinct from the dhamma. This, it is observed, is done not only to conform > with the inclinations of those who are to be instructed,38 but also to impress > upon us the fact that there is no agent behind the dhamma.39 The point being > emphasized is that the dynamic world of sensory experience is not due to > causes other than the self-same dhammas into which it is finally reduced. It > is the inter-connection of the dhammas through causal relations that explains > the variety and diversity of contingent existence and not some kind of > transempirical reality which serves as their metaphysical ground. Nor is it > due to the fiat of a Creator God40 because there is no Divine Creator over and > above the flow of mental and material phenomena.41 > > Stated otherwise, the definition of dhamma as that which bears its own-nature > means that any dhamma represents a distinct fact of empirical existence which > is not shared by other dhammas. Hence sabhava is also defined as that which is > not held in common by others (anaññasadharana),42 as the nature peculiar to > each dhamma (avenika-sabhava),43 and as the own-nature is not predicable of > other dhammas (asadharana-sabhava).44 It is also observed that if the dhammas > are said to have own-nature (saka-bhava = sabhava), this is only a tentative > device to drive home the point that there is no other-nature (para- bhava) from > which they emerge and to which they finally lapse.45 > > Now this commentarial definition of dhamma as sabhava poses an important > problem, for it seems to go against an earlier Theravada tradition recorded in > the Patisambhidamagga. This canonical text specifically states that the five > aggregates are devoid of own-nature (sabhavena-suññat).46 Since the dhammas > are the elementary constituents of the five aggregates, this should mean that > the dhammas, too, are devoid of own-nature. What is more, does not the very > use of the term sabhava, despite all the qualifications under which it is > used, give the impression that a given dhamma exists in its own right? And > does this not amount to the admission that a dhamma is some kind of substance? > > The commentators were not unaware of these implications and they therefore > took the necessary steps to forestall such a conclusion. This they sought to > do by supplementing the former definition with another which actually > nullifies the conclusion that the dhammas might be quasi- substances. This > additional definition states that a dhamma is not that which bears its > own-nature, but that which is borne by its own conditions (paccayehi > dhariyanti ti dhamma).47 Whereas the earlier definition is agent- denotation > (kattusadhana) because it attributes an active role to the dhamma, elevating > it to the position of an agent, the new definition is object- denotation > (kamma-sadhana) because it attributes a passive role to the dhamma and thereby > downgrades it to the position of an object. What is radical about this new > definition is that it reverses the whole process which otherwise might > culminate in the conception of dhammas as substances or bearers of their > own-nature. What it seeks to show is that, far from being a bearer, a dhamma > is being borne by its own conditions. > > Consonant with this situation, it is also maintained that there is no other > thing called a dhamma than the "quality" of being borne by conditions.48 The > same idea is expressed in the oft-recurrent statement that what is called a > dhamma is the mere fact of occurrence due to appropriate conditions.49 In > point of fact, in commenting upon the Patisambhidamagga statement that the > five aggregates -- and, by implication, the dhammas -- are devoid of sabhava, > the commentator observes that since the aggregates have no self- nature, they > are devoid of own-nature.50 It will thus be seen that although the term > sabhava is used as a synonym for dhamma, it is interpreted in such a way that > it means the very absence of sabhava in any sense that implies a substantial > mode of being. > > -- > --- End forwarded message --- 12501 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 8:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Robert, I found Nanavira Theras' openness about his condition admirable and, at the same time, heart wrenching. His attempts to overcome medically and by seclusion what must have been a particularly humiliating condition, deserve compassionate understanding. To have a disability which 30 or 40 years ago would caused an even greater stigma than today (but who can tell) and to be transparent and honest about it, speaks to me of the sterling calibre of the man. As to not regarding the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries as the teachings of the Buddha - I have heard active members of this list express the same opinion. Letters to Mr. Ananda Pereira http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/lett7a.htm So - you say suicide is not 'quite the same as breaking the precept against killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life of another who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide.' This is interesting..... Could you expand on this please, and perhaps give some Sutta references? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > Nanavira rejected the ancient commentaries as well as the Abhidhamma. > He says Channa was an arahant when he committed suicide; However, the > commentary explains that channa was not even a sotapanna when he cut > his throat but that he was able to insight the pain and quickly > develop the stages of vipassana and attain arahantship in the few > minutes before he died. > I had to look up 'satyriasis'; Websters: abnormal sexual craving in > the male. > Suicide is perhaps not quite the same as breaking the precept against > killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life of another > who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide. > best wishes > robert 12502 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 8:43pm Subject: khandha books hi all, here are some books on the khandhas by modern scholars I can recommend: "Identity and Experience, The Constitution of the Human Being According to Early Buddhism" by Sue Hamilton 1996 "The Khandha Passages in the Vinayapitaka and the four main Nikayas" by Tilman Vetter 2000 * "The Five Aggregates, Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology" by Mathieu Boisvert 1995 ----------- *this book by Vetter might be difficult to get. It is in english but published by an austrian academic publisher. I got it thru a really good book store but it can also be ordered online if you speak german: http://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/ it is mostly a listing of all the passages, in english and pali, that have the word "khandha" but it also has a concise but thorough discussion of definitions and meanings 12503 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & realities Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Dear Jon > > This is still rather obscure to me: > > "They [conventional realities] are products of mental construction > (parikappanaa), not >realities existing by reason of their own nature." > > What does "own nature" mean here? I can't find sabhaava in Nyanantiloka's > Dictionary. Just to supplement the useful replies already given by Larry and Sarah (and others?). As best I understand it, 'own nature' (sabhaava) seems to mean or imply having a nature that is 'fixed' in the sense that it does not change from one instance of that dhamma to the next, and is the same for anyone experiencing that same dhamma. Take sound for example. It is something that manifests with the same characteristic to everyone who has the hearing faculty. Likewise anger, feeling, hardness etc. Nothing more than that, I think. A concept (e.g., 'tree') lacks this same 'fixed' quality. We each have our own idea of what a tree is, an idea that is built up out of our experiences of various sabhaava dhammas. In a later post (to Larry) you said: > You may be right - but I still can't figure out what "own nature" in this > context could be. I'm more used to the idea of everything lacking an "own > nature" or "essence" since everything in samsara is the consequence of > something else (this being, this comes to be, etc.). The fact that all the dhammas that make up this existence are conditioned (arise dependent on other factors) does not mean that those same dhammas must be lacking an own nature. There seems to be an area of doubt (and confusion?) over the term 'self-existent' as applied to dhammas. Personally I find this term better avoided unless clearly defined, since it can be taken in different ways. > At first I thought > sabhava (own nature) was anicca, dukkha & anatta - but these are laksana > (characteristics) and somewhere I read that laksana and sabhava aren't the > same thing... One reason why sabhaava and the 3 lakkhana (characteristics) cannot be the same is that the 3 characteristics are characteristics that all conditioned dhammas share in common, whereas the sabhaava is somehow related (I'm not sure exactly how) to the fact that the individual dhamma has a single unique characteristic by which it is distinguished from all other dhammas. Also of interest here is something called visesa lakkhana ('distinguishing characteristic') which is the characteristic peculiar to each dhamma; I'm not sure how this and sabhaava are related/differentiated > Yes. I'm still trying to distinguish rupa from nama ... the current limits > of my experience are utterly LIMITED ... . > But... .... .... .... I'm curious !!! It's the same for everyone of course. We realise there's so much to be known, but that our capabilities are only so much. But we also know (have confidence) that, properly nurtured, insight accrues incrementally over time. Jon 12504 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: ……… > yes, I figured this is the correct view, which is why I put *appears* in there in > cyber-italics. I appreciate your further clarification, which I think is true. > It is in letting go of volition that both samatha and vipassana probably find room > to operate, rather than in willfully trying to effort into them. > > in any case, there is no peace while view of self is straining to see itself as > real and justify its seeming existence with acts of volition. > > Jon I hope will be happy to hear me thinking along these lines. > > Robert Ep. Indeed I am, Rob ;-)) . Kusala needs the right volition, but that volition is not the same as what we understand as willpower. In everyday usage volition and willpower can be used synonymously, but in the dhamma right effort is a very specific, purely kusala factor. What we understand as willpower is not a single specific dhamma but refers to moments of thinking, neither intrinsically wholesome or unwholesome (although to my understanding likely in practice to be akusala of one form or another, yes, even if it's the willpower to develop wholesome qualities, I'm afraid -- not wishing to sound discouraging/pessimistic, but just trying to call it as it really is ;-)) ). While I am happy to see that you are open to another view of things, let's not forget that coming to a decision one way or the other here is useful at a certain level but no further. As Erik likes to point out, the proof of the pudding must be in the eating; the correctness or otherwise of one's intellectual understanding of the texts can be tested against one's practical experience. So I would be even happier to hear you thinking that it is possible to know something about the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment (or possible at least to be developing the conditions for that knowledge to arise) without the need for anything further -- 'other-ness' of time, place, mental condition or circumstances of any kind. This after all is the only way we can ever come to know for ourselves whether awareness or understanding needs willpower or whether in fact it can arise absent any intention that it should do so. Jon 12505 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Howard I had put this interesting post of yours aside to consider, and have only now got around to looking at it. Apologies for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi all - > > A brief question: It is said that no condition arises from a single > condition, but from the coming together of conditions. A technical question > would then be "What is it that constitutes the 'coming together' of > conditions?" From the Abhidhammic perspective, at any point there is the > discernment of a single object together with a variety of accompanying > functions, all associated with that same object. Does this mean, then, that > from the Abhidhammic perspective, of the conditions which come together, only > one act of discernment of an object is included, with the other conditions > being the cetasikas? Or, is it multiple mindstates, involving the discernment > of several objects, which are the conditions that "come together", resulting > in the arising of a new condition? This latter proposition seems to me to be > more in step with the Dhamma as a whole. In which case, what restrictions on > mindstates, what interrelationships among them in time, proximity, and > content, are required to consider that they "come together". > > With metta, > Howard I think the issue you highlight here is insight into the conditioning factors of dhammas (as distinct from insight into dhammas themselves). According to my limited understanding of this difficult area, the conditioning factors at play at each moment of consciousness are not directly experienced by awareness or insight in the same manner as are the dhammas that make up that moment. Knowing the characteristic of a dhamma does not imply knowing anything specific about the conditions that give rise to that dhamma at that moment, although this knowledge is, I believe, built up over time along with the insight into the characteristics of dhammas. At the risk of over-generalising, I would say that the stages of development of insight are discussed in the texts more in terms of levels of understanding of the characteristic and nature of dhammas than of these conditioning relationships. However, knowledge about these conditioning relationships is certainly an essential aspect of the development of insight. It's just that it comes as a corollary to the development of insight into the characteristic of dhammas. My two cents' worth, anyway. Hope it's to the point of your discussion. Jon 12506 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 9:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I found Nanavira Theras' openness about his condition admirable and, > at the same time, heart wrenching. His attempts to overcome > medically and by seclusion what must have been a particularly > humiliating condition, deserve compassionate understanding. To have a > disability which 30 or 40 years ago would caused an even greater > stigma than today (but who can tell) and to be transparent and honest > about it, speaks to me of the sterling calibre of the man. ______ Yes, indeed. ------- As to not > regarding the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries as the teachings of > the Buddha - I have heard active members of this list express the > same opinion. __ Yes. I am not sure of your point? ----------- > Letters to Mr. Ananda Pereira > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/lett7a.htm > > So - you say suicide is not 'quite the same as breaking the precept > against killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life of > another who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide.' > This is interesting..... Could you expand on this please, and > perhaps give some Sutta references? ________ This is just my opinion. There are examples like Mahanama who was a sakagami who attempted suicide though. He was a king and defeated in battle. He would not bow down to the defeating king (his grandson)and knew that his cruel grandson would then kill him. He decided "it is better to die by my own hand" and dived into a river. (he was saved). Dhammapada 47 (book 4 story 3). But when it comes to killing another the commentaries say that a sotapanna could never even kill an ant even if a man was standing over them with a sword and if they refused their head would be chopped off. best wishes robert > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Christine, > > Nanavira rejected the ancient commentaries as well as the > Abhidhamma. > > He says Channa was an arahant when he committed suicide; However, > the > > commentary explains that channa was not even a sotapanna when he > cut > > his throat but that he was able to insight the pain and quickly > > develop the stages of vipassana and attain arahantship in the few > > minutes before he died. > > I had to look up 'satyriasis'; Websters: abnormal sexual craving in > > the male. > > Suicide is perhaps not quite the same as breaking the precept > against > > killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life of another > > who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide. > > best wishes > > robert 12507 From: Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/7/02 12:09:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > I had put this interesting post of yours aside to consider, and have only > now got > around to looking at it. Apologies for the delay. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. No problem! ---------------------------------------------------------- > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi all - > > > > A brief question: It is said that no condition arises from a > single > > condition, but from the coming together of conditions. A technical > question > > would then be "What is it that constitutes the 'coming together' of > > conditions?" From the Abhidhammic perspective, at any point there is the > > discernment of a single object together with a variety of accompanying > > functions, all associated with that same object. Does this mean, then, > that > > from the Abhidhammic perspective, of the conditions which come together, > only > > one act of discernment of an object is included, with the other > conditions > > being the cetasikas? Or, is it multiple mindstates, involving the > discernment > > of several objects, which are the conditions that "come together", > resulting > > in the arising of a new condition? This latter proposition seems to me to > be > > more in step with the Dhamma as a whole. In which case, what restrictions > on > > mindstates, what interrelationships among them in time, proximity, and > > content, are required to consider that they "come together". > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > I think the issue you highlight here is insight into the conditioning > factors of > dhammas (as distinct from insight into dhammas themselves). > > According to my limited understanding of this difficult area, the > conditioning > factors at play at each moment of consciousness are not directly > experienced by > awareness or insight in the same manner as are the dhammas that make up > that moment. > > Knowing the characteristic of a dhamma does not imply knowing anything > specific > about the conditions that give rise to that dhamma at that moment, although > this > knowledge is, I believe, built up over time along with the insight into the > characteristics of dhammas. > > At the risk of over-generalising, I would say that the stages of > development of > insight are discussed in the texts more in terms of levels of understanding > of the > characteristic and nature of dhammas than of these conditioning > relationships. > > However, knowledge about these conditioning relationships is certainly an > essential > aspect of the development of insight. It's just that it comes as a > corollary to the > development of insight into the characteristic of dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How does it follow? By deduction, by inference? I kind of doubt that. I think that arriving at the *notions* of inter-dhammic relations, and, most specifically, the *notion* of dependent arising, is via inference, but it is inference from the direct seeing of relations and instances of conditionality. It has been my understanding that, for the most part, Abhidhamma is intended to be a detailed codification of what is to be known directly, with insight/wisdom. And included in Abhidhamma is paticcasamupada and the analysis of relations (in the Patthana). So I would expect that conditionality can be seen directly, with wisdom. The direct apprehension, with wisdom, of the dependent arising of conditioned dhammas is the means of directly seeing their impermanence, impersonality, and insubstantiality, leading to a turning away from them, a distaste and loss of desire for them, and, finally, a stepping out to the unconditioned. -------------------------------------------------------- > > My two cents' worth, anyway. Hope it's to the point of your discussion. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Very much to the point. I'm glad you brought up the topic again. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12508 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 10:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Thanks for your reply Robert, I'm not sure of my point either, other than I had hastily misread your post and came to a ludicrous conclusion that somehow you combined his rejection of the Abhidhamma with being inflicted with satyriasis. ( I think I need a week away from work and Sunday afternoon sleep.) And as regards suicide - it seems a disappointing that there is so little ethical guidance in the ancient teachings regarding what is one of the most damaging scourges of modern life. It surely must have occurred then, or perhaps there were many more dangers in daily life, easier to disguise suicide as accidental snake bite etc.(like some of the single vehicle car accidents today). Or maybe, it's just my still holding views about some feelings sadness, hurt (which lead to suicide), as being 'better' emotions than anger, hatred (which lead to murder)........ As well, I guess I feel a sort of confusion about 'murder of an other' being worse than 'murder of self', similar to what I felt about metta being able to be radiated to others but not to oneself. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > I found Nanavira Theras' openness about his condition admirable > and, > > at the same time, heart wrenching. His attempts to overcome > > medically and by seclusion what must have been a particularly > > humiliating condition, deserve compassionate understanding. To have > a > > disability which 30 or 40 years ago would caused an even greater > > stigma than today (but who can tell) and to be transparent and > honest > > about it, speaks to me of the sterling calibre of the man. > > ______ > Yes, indeed. > ------- > As to not > > regarding the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries as the teachings > of > > the Buddha - I have heard active members of this list express the > > same opinion. > > __ > Yes. I am not sure of your point? > ----------- > > > > Letters to Mr. Ananda Pereira > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/lett7a.htm > > > > So - you say suicide is not 'quite the same as breaking the precept > > against killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life > of > > another who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide.' > > This is interesting..... Could you expand on this please, and > > perhaps give some Sutta references? > ________ > > This is just my opinion. There are examples like Mahanama who was a > sakagami who attempted suicide though. He was a king and defeated in > battle. He would not bow down to the defeating king (his grandson) and > knew that his cruel grandson would then kill him. He decided "it is > better to die by my own hand" and dived into a river. (he was saved). > Dhammapada 47 (book 4 story 3). > But when it comes to killing another the commentaries say that a > sotapanna could never even kill an ant even if a man was standing > over them with a sword and if they refused their head would be > chopped off. > best wishes > robert > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > --- > > > Dear Christine, > > > Nanavira rejected the ancient commentaries as well as the > > Abhidhamma. > > > He says Channa was an arahant when he committed suicide; However, > > the > > > commentary explains that channa was not even a sotapanna when he > > cut > > > his throat but that he was able to insight the pain and quickly > > > develop the stages of vipassana and attain arahantship in the few > > > minutes before he died. > > > I had to look up 'satyriasis'; Websters: abnormal sexual craving > in > > > the male. > > > Suicide is perhaps not quite the same as breaking the precept > > against > > > killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life of > another > > > who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide. > > > best wishes > > > robert 12509 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas Dear Jon, I think in a sense that one has to toggle back and forth between intentions and letting go. If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or vipassana, you'll be in a conceptual construct removed from the moment. But I don't think it's bad, I think it's good, to have the correct conditions in mind, knowing that they can't be forced into existence. And then go back to seeing the moment without trying to revise it in any way. I don't see why it should be either/or. Robert Ep. ============= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > ……… > > yes, I figured this is the correct view, which is why I put *appears* in there > in > > cyber-italics. I appreciate your further clarification, which I think is > true. > > It is in letting go of volition that both samatha and vipassana probably find > room > > to operate, rather than in willfully trying to effort into them. > > > > in any case, there is no peace while view of self is straining to see itself > as > > real and justify its seeming existence with acts of volition. > > > > Jon I hope will be happy to hear me thinking along these lines. > > > > Robert Ep. > > Indeed I am, Rob ;-)) . Kusala needs the right volition, but that volition is > not > the same as what we understand as willpower. In everyday usage volition and > willpower can be used synonymously, but in the dhamma right effort is a very > specific, purely kusala factor. What we understand as willpower is not a single > specific dhamma but refers to moments of thinking, neither intrinsically > wholesome > or unwholesome (although to my understanding likely in practice to be akusala of > one > form or another, yes, even if it's the willpower to develop wholesome qualities, > I'm > afraid -- not wishing to sound discouraging/pessimistic, but just trying to call > it > as it really is ;-)) ). > > While I am happy to see that you are open to another view of things, let's not > forget that coming to a decision one way or the other here is useful at a > certain > level but no further. As Erik likes to point out, the proof of the pudding must > be > in the eating; the correctness or otherwise of one's intellectual understanding > of > the texts can be tested against one's practical experience. So I would be even > happier to hear you thinking that it is possible to know something about the > characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment (or possible at > least to > be developing the conditions for that knowledge to arise) without the need for > anything further -- 'other-ness' of time, place, mental condition or > circumstances > of any kind. This after all is the only way we can ever come to know for > ourselves > whether awareness or understanding needs willpower or whether in fact it can > arise > absent any intention that it should do so. > > Jon 12510 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 10:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide ---Dear Christine, In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks for your reply Robert, I'm not sure of my point either, other > than I had hastily misread your post and came to a ludicrous > conclusion that somehow you combined his rejection of the Abhidhamma > with being inflicted with satyriasis. ( ++++++ Ha, actually my post wasn't up too its usual high standards when it comes to clear idea separation. I should have put the dictionary note as a p.s or something. I added it mainly because I remebered something about this matter when I read the book years back - but probably never had a dictionary handy. I thought others might wonder what it meant too. ------------------------- I think I need a week > away from work and Sunday afternoon sleep.) > > And as regards suicide - it seems a disappointing that there is so > little ethical guidance in the ancient teachings regarding what is > one of the most damaging scourges of modern life. It surely must have > occurred then, or perhaps there were many more dangers in daily life, > easier to disguise suicide as accidental snake bite etc.(like some of > the single vehicle car accidents today). --------- The vinaya proscribes suicide . It is dukkata (the least serious offense)for monks to commit or attempt suicide. The commentaries say that one should not kill oneself even by starvation, and the texts stress on the value of human life - especially at a time when the Dhamma is available. But I remember they also say that if one is dying of an illness and near to death that it is acceptable for one to decide to stop eating even though this may hasten the process. (But euthanasia -assisting another to die is definitely frowned on). Anyway you seem to be reflecting wisely on all this Christine. I think we can't judge easily the citta of someone. Some might think "oh, he/she commited suicide" and perhaps have a feeling 'we' are a little wiser in our approach to life. But we don't know their destiny or how they or we will fare in future lives. kind regards robert Or maybe, it's just my still > holding views about some feelings sadness, hurt (which lead to > suicide), as being 'better' emotions than anger, hatred (which lead > to murder)........ > As well, I guess I feel a sort of confusion about 'murder of an > other' being worse than 'murder of self', similar to what I felt > about metta being able to be radiated to others but not to oneself. > metta, > Christine ======= > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > Dear Robert, > > > > > > I found Nanavira Theras' openness about his condition admirable > > and, > > > at the same time, heart wrenching. His attempts to overcome > > > medically and by seclusion what must have been a particularly > > > humiliating condition, deserve compassionate understanding. To > have > > a > > > disability which 30 or 40 years ago would caused an even greater > > > stigma than today (but who can tell) and to be transparent and > > honest > > > about it, speaks to me of the sterling calibre of the man. > > > > ______ > > Yes, indeed. > > ------- > > As to not > > > regarding the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries as the > teachings > > of > > > the Buddha - I have heard active members of this list express the > > > same opinion. > > > > __ > > Yes. I am not sure of your point? > > ----------- > > > > > > > Letters to Mr. Ananda Pereira > > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/lett7a.htm > > > > > > So - you say suicide is not 'quite the same as breaking the > precept > > > against killing. When murder is committed one is taking the life > > of > > > another who doesn't want to die, slightly different from suicide.' > > > This is interesting..... Could you expand on this please, and > > > perhaps give some Sutta references? > > ________ > > > > This is just my opinion. There are examples like Mahanama who was a > > sakagami who attempted suicide though. He was a king and defeated > in > > battle. He would not bow down to the defeating king (his grandson) > and > > knew that his cruel grandson would then kill him. He decided "it is > > better to die by my own hand" and dived into a river. (he was > saved). > > Dhammapada 47 (book 4 story 3). > > But when it comes to killing another the commentaries say that a > > sotapanna could never even kill an ant even if a man was standing > > over them with a sword and if they refused their head would be > > chopped off. > > best wishes > > robert > > > > > metta, > > > Christine > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 12511 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > In my life so far as a Buddhist - initially lassoo-ed by Dukkha - I > have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to have insight into > Anatta, knowing that it was the unique teaching of Buddhism. It > certainly was the most emphatically different teaching to those I had > known in Christianity. Intellectual acceptance is one > thing, 'knowing' it is another. > But of the three universal characteristics of phenomena (anicca, > dukkha, anatta), it has been Anicca (Impermanence/change) that has > received the least of my attention. Dukkha overwhelms and forces its > way into awareness; Anatta is initially so alien and frightening (no > soul, no God, No Control) that it too claims attention. But Anicca - > well, everyone knows things change...nothing earth shattering in that > idea....... I think we see what we expect to see, what fits in with > how we already view things, when reading and discussing. Studying > ADL I have been concentrating on anatta, especially no-control, and > so didn't really focus on how it would also present anicca. > Last week I read an article by Ven. Bodhi that mentioned that > Impermanence - Aniccata - is the root characteristic of the Buddha's > teaching, the most fundamental characteristic, "which forms the basis > for the other two." Another article said that of the three > characteristics common to all sentient existence, the most important > in the practice of Vipassana is anicca, and that the Buddha had > said "that the comprehending of anicca leads automatically to a grasp > of anatta and dukkha." > Perhaps everyone else knew that, but somehow I had failed to take it > in..... So, Anicca is not only important, but of crucial importance. > I have found two suttas that apply - Loka sutta SN XXXV.82 and Anicca > Sutta SN XXXVI.9. > Bhikkhu Bodhi gives a succinct teaching on 'the three stages of > becoming' - his eloquent turn of phrase helped me to see a little > more clearly the three stages of momentary happenings. "The stable > entities that we see are really bundles of events, "packages" of > momentary flashings strung together by laws of conditionality." > and "The body is made up of minute groups of material phenomena which > are themselves actually streams of events arising and passing away > with incredible speed. The change takes so fast that the eye and the > mind cannot register it. If we twirl a glowing stick in the dark, > the eye fuses the moving points of light into the shape of a circle, > so it appears to be a solid circle of light. In the same way all > material form is fused together into the appearance of a solid body, > but the solid body is only a mental representation and not a > reality." I found the phrase 'bundles of events' quite helpful. > http://wwww.lanka.com/dhamma/dhamma/threeStages.htm > It would seem also, that this anicca will have a surface explanation, > fairly easily understood intellectually, but, like anatta, will also > have depths of meaning to be gained by experience and insight. Dear Christine, I think that anatta is the pivotal understanding upon which all the other ones rotate. Without it, they also disappear. Having no central, immutable or permanent 'self' that can be found within, is the reason why anicca is so -- there is no permanent self, so all self and other definitions are temporary and relative; and why dukkha exists: there is no permanent or defineable internal self, and therefore all phenomena are inherently unsatisfying. If we had a true self to find, it would not be unsatisfying and would not be impermanent. So, non-self: anicca and dukkha exist; self: anicca and dukkha disappear. In mystical Hinduism, one finds the atman, the 'inner self' and it is the only thing that is permanent in the world. In buddhism, there is no inner self. To me that is the only substantial difference between the two traditions, because both speak about the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of all worldly phenomena. Best, Robert Ep. 12512 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 0:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Robert, Michael and All, Isn't it strange how you never come across information that would have been useful during a discussion, - at the beginning of the discussion.... There must be a Pali word to describe this phenomena....... Anyway, I've found an article called "Suicide in Buddhism - Post- Canonical Deflections" by Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari, which I find very satisfying and interesting, and which has alayed much of the concern I felt at the 'suicide-shaped blank' in the Theravada information available....... http://www.metta.lk/english/suicide.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > ---Dear Christine, > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Thanks for your reply Robert, I'm not sure of my point either, > other > > than I had hastily misread your post and came to a ludicrous > > conclusion that somehow you combined his rejection of the > Abhidhamma > > with being inflicted with satyriasis. ( > ++++++ > Ha, actually my post wasn't up too its usual high standards when it > comes to clear idea separation. I should have put the dictionary note > as a p.s or something. I added it mainly because I remebered > something about this matter when I read the book years back - but > probably never had a dictionary handy. I thought others might wonder > what it meant too. > ------------------------- > I think I need a week > > away from work and Sunday afternoon sleep.) > > > > And as regards suicide - it seems a disappointing that there is so > > little ethical guidance in the ancient teachings regarding what is > > one of the most damaging scourges of modern life. It surely must > have > > occurred then, or perhaps there were many more dangers in daily > life, > > easier to disguise suicide as accidental snake bite etc.(like some > of > > the single vehicle car accidents today). > --------- > The vinaya proscribes suicide . It is dukkata (the least serious > offense)for monks to commit or attempt suicide. The commentaries say > that one should not kill oneself even by starvation, and the texts > stress on the value of human life - especially at a time when the > Dhamma is available. > But I remember they also say that if one is dying of an illness and > near to death that it is acceptable for one to decide to stop eating > even though this may hasten the process. (But euthanasia -assisting > another to die is definitely frowned on). Anyway you seem to be > reflecting wisely on all this Christine. I think we can't judge > easily the citta of someone. Some might think "oh, he/she commited > suicide" and perhaps have a feeling 'we' are a little wiser in our > approach to life. But we don't know their destiny or how they or we > will fare in future lives. > kind regards > robert > Or maybe, it's just my still > > holding views about some feelings sadness, hurt (which lead to > > suicide), as being 'better' emotions than anger, hatred (which lead > > to murder)........ > > As well, I guess I feel a sort of confusion about 'murder of an > > other' being worse than 'murder of self', similar to what I felt > > about metta being able to be radiated to others but not to oneself. > > metta, > > Christine > ======= > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" 12513 From: goglerr Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 0:34am Subject: Re: Concepts & realities Dear Lucy and Jon, Distinguishing of nama and rupa through reflection and thinking is praiseworthy (although theory is one of the precursor), but not enough to develop penetrating wisdom. Through the development of the 4 foundation of mindfulness, calm and insight (on the whole, the 37 factors of enlightenment), the nature of body and mind, become distinctive. For example the nature of wind element (motion), which is the one of the elements the body, becomes clear by knowing it directly, without thinking but bare attention. The wind element appears in many a different forms to the to an attentive and ardent observer. The knowing of the of the element is mind. Sometimes it is appeared as motion, slow, fast, winding, circling, zigzag, tension, stiffness etc. The appearances are what is called sabhava lakkhana in Pali. Sabhava = distinguished/unique. Lakkhana = characteristic. Sabhava lakkhana is the unique characteristics of a certain mind or body phenomena. Later when mental development takes place or nurtured, the triple characteristics (sankhata lakkhana) will arise. You say anicca, dukkha, anatta? No, not that yet!! Any mind or body phenomena will have these sankhata lakkhana, i.e. the arising/beginning, the presence/middle, and the end/passing away. So an ardent observer will see these phenomena of mind and body as arising and passing away. Next, these triple stages of beginning, middle and end after being known, the universal characteristic (samanna lakkhana – the double n in the word samanna has the curls on the top) of the mind and body appears clearly to an ardent observer. Now the anicca, dukkha and anatta become apparent. At one particular moment, sometimes anicca is more apparent than the other two characteristics, sometimes dukkha is more apparent and sometimes anatta. [On a bigger picture – say from zero to total liberation – the path that wisdom arises will on the course of anicca, dukkha, then anatta]. Only by seeing and investigating throughly the nature of sabhava lakkhana, the real nature of of aniccca, dukkha and anatta (samanna lakkhana) will arise. These perception of anicca, dukkha, anatta are what we called wisdom, in other word insight. And because awareness has becomes sharp and clear too, where the power of mindfulness and concentration are also developed. And now segregation the mind and body occurs, just like an executioner chopped off the head of a man, to become two entities. And we also by chopping the delusion, temporary, find that there are only two entities of mind and body, without a soul or self, just arising and passing away. Briefly, as we develop more and more the power of energy, mindfulness and concentration, to dispel the thick delusion in us, to see deeper and subtle nature of anicca, dukkha and anatta in every aspects of mind and body. And when the progress of wisdom or insight reaches it maturity, anicca, dukkha and anatta becomes the key and gateway to liberation, where the mind leaps into non-arising or non-occurance i.e. the total cessation of mind and matter, the eye of the Dhamma, Nibbana. And with this liberation too, certain defilement are uprooted forever. And with the uprooting of defilement, the exit of samsara is ASSURED. goglerr p.s 1. - sabhava lakkhana is synonymous with visesa lakkhana. p.s 2. - samanna lakkhana is also synonymous with tilakkhana __________________________________________________________________ Lucy wrote: At first I thought sabhava (own nature) was anicca, dukkha & anatta - but these are laksana(characteristics) and somewhere I read that laksana and sabhava aren't the same thing... Jon wrote: > One reason why sabhaava and the 3 lakkhana (characteristics) cannot be the same is that the 3 characteristics are characteristics that all conditioned dhammas share in common, whereas the sabhaava is somehow related (I'm not sure exactly how) to the fact that the individual dhamma has a single unique characteristic by which it is distinguished from all other dhammas. Also of interest here is something called visesa lakkhana ('distinguishing characteristic') which is the characteristic peculiar to each dhamma; I'm not sure how this and sabhaava are related/differentiated Lucy wrote: Yes. I'm still trying to distinguish rupa from nama ... the current limits of my experience are utterly LIMITED ... . But.. .... .... .... I'm curious !!! Jon wrote: It's the same for everyone of course. We realise there's so much to be known, but that our capabilities are only so much. But we also know (have confidence) that,properly nurtured, insight accrues incrementally over time. Jon 12514 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts & realities Dear Goglerr Thank you very much for your inspiring message. I was just about to write a reply to other people's kind explanations on sabhava, and why and how and where from...reading your message reminded me that I haven't "dipped into it" yet, so how can I discuss its flavour? He-he-he. I often forget that the reading is the "field guide" and then get lost analysing the grammar, the punctuation and all the little tricks of the language...So I need reminders to be posted very often: the field guide is to be used in the field ! It sounds like you've been along that road too? But you've gone a lot way further and know the road well : ) With deep appreciation Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "goglerr" To: Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:34 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts & realities Dear Lucy and Jon, Distinguishing of nama and rupa through reflection and thinking is praiseworthy (although theory is one of the precursor), but not enough to develop penetrating wisdom. Through the development of the 4 foundation of mindfulness, calm and insight (on the whole, the 37 factors of enlightenment), the nature of body and mind, become distinctive. For example the nature of wind element (motion), which is the one of the elements the body, becomes clear by knowing it directly, without thinking but bare attention. The wind element appears in many a different forms to the to an attentive and ardent observer. The knowing of the of the element is mind. Sometimes it is appeared as motion, slow, fast, winding, circling, zigzag, tension, stiffness etc. The appearances are what is called sabhava lakkhana in Pali. Sabhava = distinguished/unique. Lakkhana = characteristic. Sabhava lakkhana is the unique characteristics of a certain mind or body phenomena. Later when mental development takes place or nurtured, the triple characteristics (sankhata lakkhana) will arise. You say anicca, dukkha, anatta? No, not that yet!! Any mind or body phenomena will have these sankhata lakkhana, i.e. the arising/beginning, the presence/middle, and the end/passing away. So an ardent observer will see these phenomena of mind and body as arising and passing away. Next, these triple stages of beginning, middle and end after being known, the universal characteristic (samanna lakkhana - the double n in the word samanna has the curls on the top) of the mind and body appears clearly to an ardent observer. Now the anicca, dukkha and anatta become apparent. At one particular moment, sometimes anicca is more apparent than the other two characteristics, sometimes dukkha is more apparent and sometimes anatta. [On a bigger picture - say from zero to total liberation - the path that wisdom arises will on the course of anicca, dukkha, then anatta]. Only by seeing and investigating throughly the nature of sabhava lakkhana, the real nature of of aniccca, dukkha and anatta (samanna lakkhana) will arise. These perception of anicca, dukkha, anatta are what we called wisdom, in other word insight. And because awareness has becomes sharp and clear too, where the power of mindfulness and concentration are also developed. And now segregation the mind and body occurs, just like an executioner chopped off the head of a man, to become two entities. And we also by chopping the delusion, temporary, find that there are only two entities of mind and body, without a soul or self, just arising and passing away. Briefly, as we develop more and more the power of energy, mindfulness and concentration, to dispel the thick delusion in us, to see deeper and subtle nature of anicca, dukkha and anatta in every aspects of mind and body. And when the progress of wisdom or insight reaches it maturity, anicca, dukkha and anatta becomes the key and gateway to liberation, where the mind leaps into non-arising or non-occurance i.e. the total cessation of mind and matter, the eye of the Dhamma, Nibbana. And with this liberation too, certain defilement are uprooted forever. And with the uprooting of defilement, the exit of samsara is ASSURED. goglerr p.s 1. - sabhava lakkhana is synonymous with visesa lakkhana. p.s 2. - samanna lakkhana is also synonymous with tilakkhana __________________________________________________________________ Lucy wrote: At first I thought sabhava (own nature) was anicca, dukkha & anatta - but these are laksana(characteristics) and somewhere I read that laksana and sabhava aren't the same thing... Jon wrote: > One reason why sabhaava and the 3 lakkhana (characteristics) cannot be the same is that the 3 characteristics are characteristics that all conditioned dhammas share in common, whereas the sabhaava is somehow related (I'm not sure exactly how) to the fact that the individual dhamma has a single unique characteristic by which it is distinguished from all other dhammas. Also of interest here is something called visesa lakkhana ('distinguishing characteristic') which is the characteristic peculiar to each dhamma; I'm not sure how this and sabhaava are related/differentiated Lucy wrote: Yes. I'm still trying to distinguish rupa from nama ... the current limits of my experience are utterly LIMITED ... . But.. .... .... .... I'm curious !!! Jon wrote: It's the same for everyone of course. We realise there's so much to be known, but that our capabilities are only so much. But we also know (have confidence) that,properly nurtured, insight accrues incrementally over time. Jon 12515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] development of concentration op 06-04-2002 00:59 schreef yuzhonghao op victoryu@s...: > > I think that instead of seeing one's own lifestyle is incompatible > with jhana, it would be more beneficial to see that right > concentration is a skillful quality that is yet to be developed. > > As I see it, it would be skillful for one to generate desire, to > endeavor, to activate persistence, to uphold & exert one's intent for > the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet > arisen. Dear Victor, I quite agree that the four right efforts are important. They are non-self, and they naturally develop together with satipatthana. Now, as regards jhana, you quoted: Develop concentration, who is concentrated sees things as they really are. The Visuddhimagga also refers to this text we find in the "Book of the Tens", Ch I, profit, §1. I would like to see the above quoted saying in the context of the sutta and then compare it with the commentary. We read that when the Buddha was dwelling near Savatthi in the Jeta Grove, Ananda asked him: what is the object (fruit), what the profit of good conduct (sila), and that the Buddha answered freedom from remorse. Ananda then asked what the fruit and the profit is of freedom from remorse and the Buddha answered joy, and thus the conversation continued, where one factor was the condition for a subsequent factor: joy for rapture (piti), rapture for calm (passaddhi), calm for happiness (sukha), happiness for concentration (samadhi). We then read that Ananda said: "But pray, sir, what is the object, what is the profit of concentration?" "Knowing and seeing things as they really are (yaata bhuuta ~naa.na dassana), Ananda, is the object and profit of concentration" "What is the object, sir, what is the profit of knowing and seeing things as they really are?" "Revulsion (nibbida) and fading of interest (viraga), Ananda, is the object and the profit of knowing and seeing things as they really are." "Pray, sir, what is the object and profit of revulsion and fading of interest?" "Release by knowing and seeing, Ananda, is the object and the profit of revulsion and fading of interest. So you see, Ananda, good conduct has freedom from remorse as object and profit...revulsion and fading of interest have release by knowing and seeing (vimutti ~naa.na dassana) as their object and profit. So you see, Ananda, good conduct leads gradually up to the summit." The Commentary: it does not explain anything about samadhi, but it states: knowing and seeing things as they really are, yaata bhuuta ~naa.na dassana, is taru.na vipassanaa, tender insight. (N: these are the first three stages: discerning the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa, until: realizing the arising and passing away of nama and rupa, that is maha-vipassana, principal insight.) Revulsion, nibbida, is vipassana ~naa.na that is powerful (N: it is a bala, power, it can arise at any time, at any place). Fading of interest, viraga, is magga (the Path-consciousness). Release, vimutti, is the term for arahatta phala, fruition-consciousness of the arahat. As to ~naa.na dassana (N: here in connection wit vimutti, release): reviewing knowledge, paccavekha.na ~naa.na. (N: arising after the fruition consciousness, and in the case of the arahat: reviewing the defilements that have been eradicated, the utter release, reviewing nibbana.) The last sentence: they lead up to completion in arahatship. My own remarks: here is again the development of the ideal Recluse at the Buddha's time, the monk who has arahatship as his aim. Actually, the monk who observes Vinaya lives like the arahat. By the way of living one should not see any difference between the monk who is not yet an arahat and who is an arahat. He has parisuddhi sila, fourfold purification of sila: restraint of the Patimokkha (he sees danger in the slightests faults), restraint of the sense faculties (many levels, also mindfulness of nama and rupa by means of which the sense-doors are guarded), purity of livelihood, and the use of the requisites purified by mindful reflection. Also in the observance of sila satipatthana is implied, just as it is implied in whatever subject of the teachings of the Buddha. As to purity of sila, sila visuddhi, this cannot occur without satipatthana. Actually, in the Visuddhimagga also the highest sila is included in the division of sila: the four stages of enlightenment up to arahatship. Now we come to concentration: the ideal recluse who has perfect sila and develops jhana can use jhana as a base for insight. However, as I said before, only if he has the "masteries of jhana" (vasis): entering into and emerging from jhana wherever and whenever he wishes. Then jhana arises naturally for him and it can be object of mindfulness. Jhana is then proximate cause and basis for seeing things as they really are, for insight. He can be aware of the jhanafactors as impermanent, dukkha, non-self. He can develop insight until he reaches arahatship. Thus, also when the Buddha speaks about jhanas, satipatthana is implied, how could it be otherwise, since only Buddhas teach satipatthana. If someone tries to develop concentration for an hour a day or during a limited time, can he ever attain jhana? Then it is not the right concentration of the jhana the Buddha spoke of in the suttas, that can be the proximate cause for insight. Concentration less than jhana is not the proximate cause for insight. What would then be the purpose of trying to develop it? And again in the context of this sutta the Buddha speaks about the monk who develops the conditions for arahatship. In this sense, I believe, we should understand all the passages where the jhanas are mentioned under right concentration. We should also consider the following: who is today in this world an ideal recluse endowed with skills for the attainment of jhana and who can attain arahatship? Jon has carefully explained that as to right concentration as a Path factor it is not possible to develop right concentration separately, isolated from the other Path factors. When there is awareness and right understanding of nama or rupa right concentration accompanies the citta and performs its function. You spoke about right effort. I just heard something valuable connected with right effort on a tape: A. Sujin said, when akusala citta arises people are not mindful of it, they merely wish to perform kusala. Also thinking of wishing to perform kusala is a paramattha dhamma. If this is realized, there is no more the idea of self who has akusala or who performs kusala. One understands that everything that appears is just dhamma, non-self. Are there at such moments not the four right efforts? I like to repeat what Rob K. quoted from the Netti: The Netti-pakarana p168 "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Sukin stated very clearly what I myself also feel about what is most valuable in my life, and I shall quote part of his post: End quote. Nina. 12516 From: Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/7/02 2:32:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Dear Jon, > I think in a sense that one has to toggle back and forth between intentions > and > letting go. If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or vipassana, > you'll be > in a conceptual construct removed from the moment. But I don't think it's > bad, I > think it's good, to have the correct conditions in mind, knowing that they > can't > be forced into existence. And then go back to seeing the moment without > trying to > revise it in any way. I don't see why it should be either/or. > > Robert Ep. > =========================== With regard to "If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or vipassana, you'll be in a conceptual construct removed from the moment.," I think that trying to *will'* samatha or vipassana at all is already going too far, in the sense that it is a useless endeavor. I know that this sounds like Jon's no-control perspective, but it is not quite that. Let me explain: We can will all we want that the mind should be calm/concentrated or that it should see clearly with wisdom, but I don't believe there is a direct causal link between volition and these events. These events arise as the result of certain conditions, which, in turn result from others - so, there is a chain of conditions leading to samatha and vipassana. I *do* believe that volition can, at certain points in that chain, have a salutary effect, but mere willing for the end results will not. For example, when the mind has a modicum of happiness and peace in place, which happens from time to time, acting on the volition to sit (or walk) for focussed meditation is likely to lead to an increase in concentration and calm, even to absorptive or near-obsorptive states, and these may then be used for the exercise of mindfulness and mindful investigation, another point at which volition may be effective. Likewise, the repeated effort (volition) to *remember* to attend to whatever is occurring in and through oneself will cultivate the habit of ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses. So, as I see it, volition can be effective, but only when it is used as a tool that takes advantage of "the way things work", of causal patterns, and not as a mere willing of results. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12517 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 0:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Time for Kom Dear Sarah, I appreciate your taking the time to find the references for the answer. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:59 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Time for Kom 12518 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 0:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Dear Larry, This sutta may be relevant: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-001.html In this sutta, the Buddha V. Sariputta differentiated two sort of people: 1) People who are afflicted by both the body and the mind 2) People who are afflicted by the body, but not the mind. The buddha and the arahat who has not reached pari-nibbana still suffers in the body from the continuing arising and falling away of the 5 kandhas, but because they no longer has updadana to the 5 kandhas, they are not afflicted in the mind. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 5:51 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) > > > Hi Howard, this is an interesting point of > controversy (below). I think > there are places where the Buddha says the > khandhas (without the > emphasis of "upadana") are dukkha. The way I am > understanding this (at > this point) is that the khandhas are pervaded by > upadana and it isn't > necessary to add "upadana"; so I think nibbana, > even in this life, is > somehow *other*. Not real sure... > > Larry > --------------------- > Howard wrote: > The Buddha, while alive, "had" all five khandhas, > but the Buddha was > beyond suffering. So it cannot be the khandhas > per se, that are dukkha, > but the five khandhas affected by clinging. > That's as I see it. 12519 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 1:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) > from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 2, paragraphs 21 - 24 > 24. As long as there is still clinging to the khandhas there will be the > arising of the khandhas in rebirth, and this means sorrow. If we develop > the Eightfold Path we will learn to see what the khandhas really are. > Then we are on the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha, which means: no > more birth, old age, sickness and death. > Those who have attained the last stage of enlightenment, the stage of > the arahat, will be, after their life-span is over, free from the > khandhas. > Hi Larry and all There's an interesting follow up to this in the Khemaka Sutta, Samyutta Nikaya XXII.89. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html Best wishes Lucy QUOTE Then Ven. Khemaka, leaning on his staff, went to the elder monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the elder monks said to him, "Friend Khemaka, this 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'? Do you say, 'I am form,' or do you say, 'I am something other than form'? Do you say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' or do you say, 'I am something other than consciousness''? This 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?" "Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.' "It's just like the scent of a blue, red, or white lotus: If someone were to call it the scent of a petal or the scent of the color or the scent of a filament, would he be speaking correctly?" "No, friend." "Then how would he describe it if he were describing it correctly?" "As the scent of the flower: That's how he would describe it if he were describing it correctly." "In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.' "Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated. "Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated. "In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated." END QUOTE 12520 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay Help ! 1) Does anyone know why the word vinnana is used for a khandha and the word citta for paramattha dhamma??? 2) And how does "mano" relate to the two ? 3) If Vinnanakkhandha / citta arises and falls away and there is nothing "stored" anywhere ... does this mean that ALL the potential force of ALL the kamma by an infinite number of rebirths in ALL realms of samsara since beginningless time is picked up by every citta that arises and is passed on to the next citta when the first one falls away ??? Lucy > from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 2 paragraphs 18 - 20 > > > 20. Vinnanakkhandha (citta) is real; we can experience it when there is > seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, receiving impressions through the > body-sense or thinking. Vinnanakkhandha arises and falls away; it is > impermanent. All sankhara dhammas (conditioned phenomenal), that is, the > five khandhas, are impermanent. > 12521 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] development of concentration Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply to Victor, and thanks to Victor for eliciting it. I find it clear and valuable. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 06-04-2002 00:59 schreef yuzhonghao op victoryu@s...: > > > > I think that instead of seeing one's own lifestyle is incompatible > > with jhana, it would be more beneficial to see that right > > concentration is a skillful quality that is yet to be developed. > > > > As I see it, it would be skillful for one to generate desire, to > > endeavor, to activate persistence, to uphold & exert one's intent for > > the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet > > arisen. > > Dear Victor, I quite agree that the four right efforts are important. They > are non-self, and they naturally develop together with satipatthana. > Now, as regards jhana, you quoted: Develop concentration, who is > concentrated sees things as they really are. The Visuddhimagga also refers > to this text we find in the "Book of the Tens", Ch I, profit, §1. I would > like to see the above quoted saying in the context of the sutta and then > compare it with the commentary. > We read that when the Buddha was dwelling near Savatthi in the Jeta Grove, > Ananda asked him: what is the object (fruit), what the profit of good > conduct (sila), and that the Buddha answered freedom from remorse. Ananda > then asked what the fruit and the profit is of freedom from remorse and the > Buddha answered joy, and thus the conversation continued, where one factor > was the condition for a subsequent factor: joy for rapture (piti), rapture > for calm (passaddhi), calm for happiness (sukha), happiness for > concentration (samadhi). We then read that Ananda said: > "But pray, sir, what is the object, what is the profit of concentration?" > "Knowing and seeing things as they really are (yaata bhuuta ~naa.na > dassana), Ananda, is the object and profit of concentration" > "What is the object, sir, what is the profit of knowing and seeing things as > they really are?" > "Revulsion (nibbida) and fading of interest (viraga), Ananda, is the object > and the profit of knowing and seeing things as they really are." > "Pray, sir, what is the object and profit of revulsion and fading of > interest?" > "Release by knowing and seeing, Ananda, is the object and the profit of > revulsion and fading of interest. So you see, Ananda, good conduct has > freedom from remorse as object and profit...revulsion and fading of interest > have release by knowing and seeing (vimutti ~naa.na dassana) as their object > and profit. So you see, Ananda, good conduct leads gradually up to the > summit." > > The Commentary: it does not explain anything about samadhi, but it states: > knowing and seeing things as they really are, yaata bhuuta ~naa.na dassana, > is taru.na vipassanaa, tender insight. (N: these are the first three stages: > discerning the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa, > until: realizing the arising and passing away of nama and rupa, that is > maha-vipassana, principal insight.) Revulsion, nibbida, is vipassana ~naa.na > that is powerful (N: it is a bala, power, it can arise at any time, at any > place). Fading of interest, viraga, is magga (the Path- consciousness). > Release, vimutti, is the term for arahatta phala, fruition- consciousness of > the arahat. As to ~naa.na dassana (N: here in connection wit vimutti, > release): reviewing knowledge, paccavekha.na ~naa.na. (N: arising after the > fruition consciousness, and in the case of the arahat: reviewing the > defilements that have been eradicated, the utter release, reviewing > nibbana.) The last sentence: they lead up to completion in arahatship. > > My own remarks: here is again the development of the ideal Recluse at the > Buddha's time, the monk who has arahatship as his aim. Actually, the monk > who observes Vinaya lives like the arahat. By the way of living one should > not see any difference between the monk who is not yet an arahat and who is > an arahat. He has parisuddhi sila, fourfold purification of sila: restraint > of the Patimokkha (he sees danger in the slightests faults), restraint of > the sense faculties (many levels, also mindfulness of nama and rupa by means > of which the sense-doors are guarded), purity of livelihood, and the use of > the requisites purified by mindful reflection. Also in the observance of > sila satipatthana is implied, just as it is implied in whatever subject of > the teachings of the Buddha. As to purity of sila, sila visuddhi, this > cannot occur without satipatthana. Actually, in the Visuddhimagga also the > highest sila is included in the division of sila: the four stages of > enlightenment up to arahatship. > Now we come to concentration: the ideal recluse who has perfect sila and > develops jhana can use jhana as a base for insight. However, as I said > before, only if he has the "masteries of jhana" (vasis): entering into and > emerging from jhana wherever and whenever he wishes. Then jhana arises > naturally for him and it can be object of mindfulness. Jhana is then > proximate cause and basis for seeing things as they really are, for insight. > He can be aware of the jhanafactors as impermanent, dukkha, non- self. He can > develop insight until he reaches arahatship. Thus, also when the Buddha > speaks about jhanas, satipatthana is implied, how could it be otherwise, > since only Buddhas teach satipatthana. > If someone tries to develop concentration for an hour a day or during a > limited time, can he ever attain jhana? Then it is not the right > concentration of the jhana the Buddha spoke of in the suttas, that can be > the proximate cause for insight. Concentration less than jhana is not the > proximate cause for insight. What would then be the purpose of trying to > develop it? And again in the context of this sutta the Buddha speaks about > the monk who develops the conditions for arahatship. In this sense, I > believe, we should understand all the passages where the jhanas are > mentioned under right concentration. > We should also consider the following: who is today in this world an ideal > recluse endowed with skills for the attainment of jhana and who can attain > arahatship? > Jon has carefully explained that as to right concentration as a Path factor > it is not possible to develop right concentration separately, isolated from > the other Path factors. When there is awareness and right understanding of > nama or rupa right concentration accompanies the citta and performs its > function. > You spoke about right effort. I just heard something valuable connected with > right effort on a tape: A. Sujin said, when akusala citta arises people are > not mindful of it, they merely wish to perform kusala. Also thinking of > wishing to perform kusala is a paramattha dhamma. If this is realized, there > is no more the idea of self who has akusala or who performs kusala. One > understands that everything that appears is just dhamma, non-self. Are there > at such moments not the four right efforts? > I like to repeat what Rob K. quoted from the Netti: > > The Netti-pakarana p168 > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava > vipassanam upadassati. > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt > faculties. > > Sukin stated very clearly what I myself also feel about what is most > valuable in my life, and I shall quote part of his post: > > IS a teaching of the Buddha. Let me show why I do not believe this to be > so.( Sorry I cannot argue on the basis of what is documented in the > tipitaka, I am almost completely unknowledgable here.) > One thing I've come to appreciate (much influenced by your own sutta > references) since I was introduced to dsg and K.Sujin, is the fact about > anatta and conditions. That dhammas rise and fall only because of > conditions, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta,(hope I've understood > this correctly) all uncontrollable. > On the one hand there is the danger that one does not believe in kamma/ > vipaka and so do not see kilesa as a threat, so one just follows the dictate > of one's kilesa without knowing it. On the other hand one sees that because > kilesas are an obstacle, one can purify one's cetana and hence believing > and doing everything that seem to suggest that following it would lead to > that goal. The dhammas arise and fall so fast, not only when we think we > are aware of cetana but kilesa has already done it's job. > The middle way is not something we can 'decide' to follow, it is when we > are on the path. In the mean time, one admits one's shortcomings, not > as a one time conclusion and then working from it, but being aware now. > Seeing the arising and falling of dhamma or recognising the world of concept > for what it is, is the recognition that nothing can be done, except to keep > on > listening and learning. Studying with lobha as a means to 'gain' can be > known, > studying with chanda with an acceptance that one does not really know and > that there is much that one can learn from the teachings of the Buddha can > also be known. > In daily everyday life, I live in the conventional world of people, things, > and events. Here I cannot help but 'do' things in order to gain or get rid > of things. > This is the world of avijja. But when studying and considering the dhamma > there > is an increasing appreciation of not having to do anything but only to keep > on > learning and observing.> > End quote. > > Nina. 12522 From: Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 4:14pm Subject: ADL ch. 3 (1-6) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 3, paragraphs 1 - 6 1. The Buddha spoke about everything which is real. What he taught can be proved by our own experience. However, we do not really know the most common realities of daily life: the mental phenomena and physical phenomena which appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. It seems that we are mostly interested in the past or the future. However, we will find out what life really is if we know more about the realities of the present moment, and if we are aware of them when they appear. 2. The Buddha explained that citta (consciousness) is a reality. We may doubt whether cittas are real. How can we prove that there are cittas? Could it be that there are only physical phenomena and not mental phenomena? There are many things in our life we take for granted such as our homes, meals. clothes, or the tools we use every day. These things do not arise by themselves. They are brought about by a thinking mind, by citta. Citta is a mental phenomenon; it knows or experiences something. Citta is not like a physical phenomenon which does not experience anything. We listen to music which was written by a composer. It was citta which had the idea for the music; it was citta which made the composer's hand move in order to write down the notes. His hand could not have moved without citta. 3. Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the 'Atthasalini'; (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: How is consciousness (i.e.mind ) capable of producing a variety or diversity of effects in action? There is no art in the world more variegated than the art of painting. In painting, the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest of his pictures. An artistic design occurs to the painters of masterpieces that such and such pictures should be drawn in such and such a way. Through this artistic design there arise operations of the mind (or artistic operations) accomplishing such things as sketching the outline, putting on the paint, touching up, and embellishing... Thus all classes of arts in the world, specific or generic, are achieved by the mind. And owing to its capacity thus to produce a variety or diversity of effects in action, the mind, which achieves all these arts, is itself artistic like the arts themselves. Nay, it is even more artistic than the art itself, because the latter cannot execute every design perfectly. For that reason the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.' 4. We then read about the many different things which are accomplished by citta: good deeds such as deeds of generosity and bad deeds such as deeds of cruelty and deceit are accomplished by citta and these deeds produce different results. There is not just one type of citta, but many different types of cittas. 5. Different people react differently to what they experience, thus, different types of citta arise. What one person likes, another dislikes. We can also notice how different people are when they make or produce something. Even when two people plan to make the same thing the result is quite different. For example, when two people make a painting of the same tree, the paintings are not at all the same. People have different talents and capacities; some people have no difficulty with their studies, whereas others are incapable of study. Cittas are beyond control; they have each their own conditions for their arising. 6. Why are people so different from one another? The reason is that they have different experiences in life and thus they accumulate different inclinations. When a child has been taught from his youth to be generous he accumulates generosity. People who are angry very often accumulate a great deal of anger. We all have accumulated different inclinations, tastes and skills. 12523 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] development of concentration I really love this group ... Thanks ..... metta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] development of concentration > op 06-04-2002 00:59 schreef yuzhonghao op victoryu@s...: > > > > I think that instead of seeing one's own lifestyle is incompatible > > with jhana, it would be more beneficial to see that right > > concentration is a skillful quality that is yet to be developed. > > > > As I see it, it would be skillful for one to generate desire, to > > endeavor, to activate persistence, to uphold & exert one's intent for > > the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet > > arisen. > > Dear Victor, I quite agree that the four right efforts are important. They > are non-self, and they naturally develop together with satipatthana. > Now, as regards jhana, you quoted: Develop concentration, who is > concentrated sees things as they really are. The Visuddhimagga also refers > to this text we find in the "Book of the Tens", Ch I, profit, §1. I would > like to see the above quoted saying in the context of the sutta and then > compare it with the commentary. > We read that when the Buddha was dwelling near Savatthi in the Jeta Grove, > Ananda asked him: what is the object (fruit), what the profit of good > conduct (sila), and that the Buddha answered freedom from remorse. Ananda > then asked what the fruit and the profit is of freedom from remorse and the > Buddha answered joy, and thus the conversation continued, where one factor > was the condition for a subsequent factor: joy for rapture (piti), rapture > for calm (passaddhi), calm for happiness (sukha), happiness for > concentration (samadhi). We then read that Ananda said: > "But pray, sir, what is the object, what is the profit of concentration?" > "Knowing and seeing things as they really are (yaata bhuuta ~naa.na > dassana), Ananda, is the object and profit of concentration" > "What is the object, sir, what is the profit of knowing and seeing things as > they really are?" > "Revulsion (nibbida) and fading of interest (viraga), Ananda, is the object > and the profit of knowing and seeing things as they really are." > "Pray, sir, what is the object and profit of revulsion and fading of > interest?" > "Release by knowing and seeing, Ananda, is the object and the profit of > revulsion and fading of interest. So you see, Ananda, good conduct has > freedom from remorse as object and profit...revulsion and fading of interest > have release by knowing and seeing (vimutti ~naa.na dassana) as their object > and profit. So you see, Ananda, good conduct leads gradually up to the > summit." > > The Commentary: it does not explain anything about samadhi, but it states: > knowing and seeing things as they really are, yaata bhuuta ~naa.na dassana, > is taru.na vipassanaa, tender insight. (N: these are the first three stages: > discerning the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa, > until: realizing the arising and passing away of nama and rupa, that is > maha-vipassana, principal insight.) Revulsion, nibbida, is vipassana ~naa.na > that is powerful (N: it is a bala, power, it can arise at any time, at any > place). Fading of interest, viraga, is magga (the Path-consciousness). > Release, vimutti, is the term for arahatta phala, fruition-consciousness of > the arahat. As to ~naa.na dassana (N: here in connection wit vimutti, > release): reviewing knowledge, paccavekha.na ~naa.na. (N: arising after the > fruition consciousness, and in the case of the arahat: reviewing the > defilements that have been eradicated, the utter release, reviewing > nibbana.) The last sentence: they lead up to completion in arahatship. > > My own remarks: here is again the development of the ideal Recluse at the > Buddha's time, the monk who has arahatship as his aim. Actually, the monk > who observes Vinaya lives like the arahat. By the way of living one should > not see any difference between the monk who is not yet an arahat and who is > an arahat. He has parisuddhi sila, fourfold purification of sila: restraint > of the Patimokkha (he sees danger in the slightests faults), restraint of > the sense faculties (many levels, also mindfulness of nama and rupa by means > of which the sense-doors are guarded), purity of livelihood, and the use of > the requisites purified by mindful reflection. Also in the observance of > sila satipatthana is implied, just as it is implied in whatever subject of > the teachings of the Buddha. As to purity of sila, sila visuddhi, this > cannot occur without satipatthana. Actually, in the Visuddhimagga also the > highest sila is included in the division of sila: the four stages of > enlightenment up to arahatship. > Now we come to concentration: the ideal recluse who has perfect sila and > develops jhana can use jhana as a base for insight. However, as I said > before, only if he has the "masteries of jhana" (vasis): entering into and > emerging from jhana wherever and whenever he wishes. Then jhana arises > naturally for him and it can be object of mindfulness. Jhana is then > proximate cause and basis for seeing things as they really are, for insight. > He can be aware of the jhanafactors as impermanent, dukkha, non-self. He can > develop insight until he reaches arahatship. Thus, also when the Buddha > speaks about jhanas, satipatthana is implied, how could it be otherwise, > since only Buddhas teach satipatthana. > If someone tries to develop concentration for an hour a day or during a > limited time, can he ever attain jhana? Then it is not the right > concentration of the jhana the Buddha spoke of in the suttas, that can be > the proximate cause for insight. Concentration less than jhana is not the > proximate cause for insight. What would then be the purpose of trying to > develop it? And again in the context of this sutta the Buddha speaks about > the monk who develops the conditions for arahatship. In this sense, I > believe, we should understand all the passages where the jhanas are > mentioned under right concentration. > We should also consider the following: who is today in this world an ideal > recluse endowed with skills for the attainment of jhana and who can attain > arahatship? > Jon has carefully explained that as to right concentration as a Path factor > it is not possible to develop right concentration separately, isolated from > the other Path factors. When there is awareness and right understanding of > nama or rupa right concentration accompanies the citta and performs its > function. > You spoke about right effort. I just heard something valuable connected with > right effort on a tape: A. Sujin said, when akusala citta arises people are > not mindful of it, they merely wish to perform kusala. Also thinking of > wishing to perform kusala is a paramattha dhamma. If this is realized, there > is no more the idea of self who has akusala or who performs kusala. One > understands that everything that appears is just dhamma, non-self. Are there > at such moments not the four right efforts? > I like to repeat what Rob K. quoted from the Netti: > > The Netti-pakarana p168 > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava > vipassanam upadassati. > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt > faculties. > > Sukin stated very clearly what I myself also feel about what is most > valuable in my life, and I shall quote part of his post: > > IS a teaching of the Buddha. Let me show why I do not believe this to be > so.( Sorry I cannot argue on the basis of what is documented in the > tipitaka, I am almost completely unknowledgable here.) > One thing I've come to appreciate (much influenced by your own sutta > references) since I was introduced to dsg and K.Sujin, is the fact about > anatta and conditions. That dhammas rise and fall only because of > conditions, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta,(hope I've understood > this correctly) all uncontrollable. > On the one hand there is the danger that one does not believe in kamma/ > vipaka and so do not see kilesa as a threat, so one just follows the dictate > of one's kilesa without knowing it. On the other hand one sees that because > kilesas are an obstacle, one can purify one's cetana and hence believing > and doing everything that seem to suggest that following it would lead to > that goal. The dhammas arise and fall so fast, not only when we think we > are aware of cetana but kilesa has already done it's job. > The middle way is not something we can 'decide' to follow, it is when we > are on the path. In the mean time, one admits one's shortcomings, not > as a one time conclusion and then working from it, but being aware now. > Seeing the arising and falling of dhamma or recognising the world of concept > for what it is, is the recognition that nothing can be done, except to keep > on > listening and learning. Studying with lobha as a means to 'gain' can be > known, > studying with chanda with an acceptance that one does not really know and > that there is much that one can learn from the teachings of the Buddha can > also be known. > In daily everyday life, I live in the conventional world of people, things, > and events. Here I cannot help but 'do' things in order to gain or get rid > of things. > This is the world of avijja. But when studying and considering the dhamma > there > is an increasing appreciation of not having to do anything but only to keep > on > learning and observing.> > End quote. > > Nina. 12524 From: Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 6:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Thanks Kom, I think that point was made in the last chapter of ADL. I had a further thought regarding this question that relates to "seeing things as they are". Does this mean seeing the khandhas as delusion? seeing reality as delusion? thanks, Larry -------------------------- Kom wrote: Dear Larry, This sutta may be relevant: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-001.html In this sutta, the Buddha V. Sariputta differentiated two sort of people: 1) People who are afflicted by both the body and the mind 2) People who are afflicted by the body, but not the mind. The buddha and the arahat who has not reached pari-nibbana still suffers in the body from the continuing arising and falling away of the 5 kandhas, but because they no longer has updadana to the 5 kandhas, they are not afflicted in the mind. kom 12525 From: Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Thanks Lucy, good quote, especially this part: "But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated." Larry 12526 From: Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) <<<<<<< Considering this formulation of the 4 noble truths (below), it seems to > me that suffering and the cause of suffering are the same. Dukkha = > upadanakkhandha [upadana = lobha (imo), cause of dukkha = desire, lobha > = desire (imo). Therefore dukkha and cause of dukkha are the same. > Vipaka doesn't figure into the equation. Suffering, in this sense, is > desire itself. > > comments? > Larry > ========================= This is exactly the way I think of it. As I see it, suffering is craving - either craving per se, which is the wanting (more than mere chanda) for things to be a certain way, or aversion, which is the wanting for things to be different from the way they are. In short, suffering is emotional dissatisfaction with things as they are, either because of a perceived unsatisfactory absence or because of a perceived unsatisfactory presence. Hi Howard, this is an interesting point of controversy (below). I think there are places where the Buddha says the khandhas (without the emphasis of "upadana") are dukkha. The way I am understanding this (at this point) is that the khandhas are pervaded by upadana and it isn't necessary to add "upadana"; so I think nibbana, even in this life, is somehow *other*. Not real sure... -------------------- Howard wrote: The Buddha, while alive, "had" all five khandhas, but the Buddha was beyond suffering. So it cannot be the khandhas per se, that are dukkha, but the five khandhas affected by clinging. That's as I see it. >>>>>>> Hi Larry, Lucy, Kom, Howard and ADL group. Hmm, let me say some more detail about dukkha. What is dukkha (suffering or unsatisfactory of conditional realities) in the 4 noble truths (dukkha, samudaya, nirodha and magga)? From suttas: 1) birth (jati) is suffering; 2) aging (jara) is suffering; 3) death (morana) is suffering; 4 sorrow (soka); 5) lamentation; 6) pain (dukkhadukkha); 7) mental pain (domanassa); 8) despair is suffering; 9) association with the dislike is suffering; 10) separation from the liked is suffering; 11) not getting what one wants is suffering; and 12) in brief the five khandhas as the objects of attachments are suffering. Birth, aging and death (jati, jara and morana); there are 2 main kinds of this truth: 1) manifesting (pakata) birth, aging and death and 2) non-manifesting or non-revealing (apakata) birth, aging and death. Revealing jati, jara and morana are what we call birth, aging and death in conventional sense. Because of birth, then comes aging and then death. But if we refer to single moment of citta, there are also jati, jara and morana in single moment of citta or rupa as well. So there is dukkha is even a single moment of citta. We discussed about samanna lakkhana, (annicca, dukkha and anatta) of paramattha-dhamma couple weeks ago. All 5 khandhas are conditional dhamma. All conditional dhammas have dukkha as their characteristic. This is called sankara-dukkha. The reason they called sankara-dukkha b/c they arise and then fallen away by conditions. The things we call animals or beings are a temporary aggregation of 5 khandhas. We have some conventional understanding of what is birth, aging and death but the subtle or non-revealing jati, jara and morana are really hard to see. Wisdom (panna) has character of penetrating. It's the wisdom in a level nnana that can clearly see the tilakkhana of sakkara. Pain (dukkhadukkha) is also dukkha. It's a painful feeling (dukkha vedana). it also has a characteristic of dukkha of tilakkhana. What's about bodily pleasant feeling (sukkhavedana). We like it. It's pleasurable, no pain here but even the pleasant feeling is still also has a characteristic of dukkha as well. Sorrow, lamentation, mental pain, despair, association with the dislike, separation from the liked, not getting what one wants, these are mental suffering, occurs only in citta rooted in anger, dosa-mula-citta. The Buddha and the arahat are still subjected to bodily pain (vipaka) but they completely eradicate the mental suffering. All khandhas which formed into beings, animals, human or the Buddha in conventional sense are still have dukkha-lakkhana or sankara-dukkha. Upadanakhandha (translated as khandhas as the objects of attachments), all khandhas has potential to be a subject of attachment. Without wisdom (panna), tilakkhanas cannot be vividly appreciated. We do not see the reality of khandhas, we grasp them as something permanent. Lobha can attach to any khandhas. It said that only 2 things are not subjected to lobha(upadana): nibbana and lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. You may say that lokuttara cittas are part of vinnakhandha. But lokuttara cittas are not part of the first noble truth (dukkha). Why? Because this kind of cittas will lead to the end of samsara. Other akusalacitta, kusalaciita or even jhana-kusalacitta cannot lead anybody out of samsara. So nibbana and lokuttara citta are not upadanakhandha (khandhas as the objects of attachments). Lobha is a second noble truth which called samudaya(mean cause or origin). The person who can completely eradicate lobha is an arahat. If there is lobha, there will be birth. When there is a birth, then again comes jara, morana, pain, sorrow, lamentation, mental pain and despair. That's why lobha is called samudaya (cause of suffering). <<< My point was that akusala vipaka is without roots while upadanakkhandha is _with_ roots. So the dukkha that is talked about in the 4 noble truths isn't vipaka. It is both cause and effect, at least in this sutta. Do you know of any commentaries or anything on paccaya in the second truth? (or maybe we should wait until we get to that in ADL) >>> Larry, I think lobha can attach to any khandha. Rupa-khandha, vedana-khandha and sannakhadha are all not roots. Yes, there is no root is vipaka-citta but it still can be object of clinging, for example, we like pleasant feeling in bodily sensation when it's not too hot or too cold. Lobha can also attach to kusala citta, jhana citta, even to wisdom (mundane panna). Thanks for the sutta, Kom. Sorry if this is too long. Hope it makes some sense. The 4 ariya-sacca is hard for me to understand too. Feedback and comment are appreciated. Best wishes. Num 12527 From: Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Hi Num, good response. Actually, both views make sense to me: khandhas are dukkha - or - _attachment_ to khandhas cause dukkha. Maybe there is not much difference. My main qualm is that by saying attachment to khandhas causes suffering I tend to hope there could be some khandhas I could enjoy after I let go of the attachment. That seems to be a suspect logic I find in myself. I hope the others will have something to say about this. It's an old debate and I doubt if we will settle it. Larry 12528 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense bases-Ken H Dear Ken H and Herman, Thank you for both replying to the same post of mine on cakkhu pasada (eye-sense). You both quoted the same extract and made the following comments: .......... --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Sarah and Robert K > > Thank you both for your replies which combine beautifully to show me > where I was going wrong. As you say, the texts are trying to dismiss > any identification of an absolute reality with its conceptual > counterpart. Knowing this, why should I quibble over the choice of > words -- worrying that they don't suit the current form of my mere, > intellectual understanding. > ********** --- egberdina wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > I have been finding it a little difficult to take you seriously > lately. > > What about this to renew my confidence? Take a conceptually sharp > pencil (both the sharpness and the pencil)... > For the less advanced, don't try this unless you have survived on air > sandwiches for more than two months. ********** Thankyou both for the opportunity to reflect on praise and blame;-)) From AN, (Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) “ ... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are. Gain, loss and so forth take possession of their minds and hold sway there. they welcome the gain which has arisen; they rebel against obscurity. They welcome the praise which has arisen; they rebel against blame. They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. Thus given over to compliance and hostility, they are not freed from birth, old age, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, miseries and tribulations. I say such folk are not free from ill. “ *********** I find dsg proves an excellent opportunity to reflect on the worldly conditions. It’s so very easy to take the praise and blame ‘personally’ and for conceit and other kilesa to arise on account of the visible objects (when we read messages) and so very rapidly too.Of course these are merely different sankhara dhammas and not self and whenever any of them arise, there are good opportunities for them to be the objects of sati (awareness) too. If there were no seeing of objects at this moment, there would be no conditions for these kilesa to arise on their account. As we know, each moment of seeing only occurs if there are conditions for kamma to bring its result right now. Conventionally we correctly say that if there were no body, there would be no experiencing of temperature and other objects experienced through the body. In the same way, we say, if there were no eyes (or if they weren’t open) there would be no objects seen (Herman’s point, I think). Still, in terms of awareness of the paramattha dhammas experienced, we can be a little more precise. We can begin to see that body and eyes are concepts and the rupas referred to as eye-sense and body-sense are very different from the what we take for eyes and body. Herman,. I like talking to you about kids, because we both spend a lot of our time with them. I’m sure you have the experience of calling them for a meal when they are absorbed in a game. Sometimes it seems they just don’t hear one. I also had the experience the other day when I was absorbed in writing to dsg and didn’t seem to hear someone at the door for the longest time .When we walk into walls (or wells in some cases), it seems that we just didn’t see in front of us. My point is simply that our eyes and ears may be ‘open’, but seeing and hearing --like all other cittas--arise and fall away very fast and although it seems otherwise, do not arise all the time. The vipaka cittas depend on the previous kamma and many other conditions, expecially the contacting of the eye-sense or ear-sense by the object, in order to arise. As we know, at times of strong concentration or jhana, there are no conditions for sense-door experience. ..... Sense-bases are a very tricky area for me to understand as well. I can see why it can sound like so many ‘air sandwiches’ and I apologise if you’ve been getting hungrier and hungrier on this diet. I’d be happy if you shouted sooner next time you’d like different ones. I believe I was responding to a request from Ken H for the ‘air’ type, but there are many different tastes here and it’s good to be reminded. I’m not sure if I’ve helped or hindered, but would be glad to hear in either regard. Ken H, I also appreciated your reminder about reading all these descriptions in the light of satipatthana. For me, that is the crux and the value of the texts. Sarah p.s Herman, Still hoping you and Vicki will be able to get away for a weekend of Noosa sea-breeze and your own choice of sandwiches. Ken H and I’ll even promise not to mention cakkhu pasada (eye-base) or the commentaries if that helps;-)) ================================================ 12529 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 0:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24): seeing the kandhas as delusion Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Thanks Kom, > > I think that point was made in the last chapter > of ADL. I had a further > thought regarding this question that relates to > "seeing things as they > are". Does this mean seeing the khandhas as > delusion? seeing reality as > delusion? I think it is more like seeing the realities as they truly are (aren't we going in circles?): as element, as rupa, as nama, as non-self, as conditioned nama or rupa, as impermanence, as something that cannot endure, as something that must fall away, etc. The realities has their own characteristics. We should learn what those characteristics are. Hardness and coldness have different characteristics. Hardness and feelings have different characteristics. That's why we are learning in details what the different characteristics are, so this will condition wisdom to arise to cognize realities as they truly are. If we understand what truly exists (paramatha dhamma) and what doesn't exist at all (concept), then we can understand why some of our attachments / aversions toward concepts are truly silly (it doesn't even exist!). If we also understand that even that truly exists (except nibbana) falls away immediately, then we can understand why holding on to them as self, or as belonging to self is also silly (how could anything belong to you if it is no longer there???). We become less delusional about realities and concepts: we learn about the truths of nature, about ourselves, and about the Buddha's teachings. I think we strive to become less deluded about all the thing that happens around and within us. kom 12530 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Christine, Michael and Rob K, Just a few more thoughts on suicide and death. Rob and Christine, I’ve appreciated your references from the texts. I tend to think there’s a difference between the act motivated by the (wrong) idea that it will bring about the end of being and suffering (annihilationist view) and the dosa that just cannot bear ‘the pain’ anymore without necessarily any wrong idea. As we also know, any attachment in life, including attachment to spiritual progress or experience, brings more suffering. What I really learn when I hear about ‘untimely deaths’ is how death can come at anytime to any of us. We really have no idea (unless we’re anagamis or arahants with no attachment to sense experiences) under what circumstnaces we might perform such a deed. Num gave the medical examples of those who turn mad from certain diseases and we’ve all read stories of people who live in misery from severe physical and mental suffering. As Chris suggested, they deserve our geatest sympathy and compassion I think. .......... In the Vusuddhimagga we read about the Eight ways of Recollecting Death that can condition samatha in daily life and your posts have been a condition for me to reflect on these. In brief (ch V111): 1. “As having the appearance of a murderer” We read how ‘this death, which comes along with birth, is like a murderer with poised sword.’. We don’t know when the murderer will come. Reflecting on it can be a condition for dosa or it can be a condition for calm at this moment. 2.”As the ruin of success”. Death is the ‘final ruining of life’s success’. It spares none. 3. “By Comparision”. Just as ‘those of great fame’,’of great merit’, ‘of great strength’, ‘of great supernatural power’ , ‘of great unerstanding’, ‘paccekabuddhas’, ‘ fully enlightened Buddhas’ die and cannot escape, neither can we. 4. “As to the sharing of the body with many” Death can come from any number of causes at any time because the body is shared by so many families of worms, internal diseases ‘as well as by such external causes of death as snakes, scorpions, and what not’. 5. “As to the frailty of life” This is a favourite reflection on death for me. Life depends on the short in and out breaths now, on the temperature and elements and nutriment. If there is not any breath now, or if one is overcome by temperature or if the elements are disturbed and so on, there is no life. 6. “As signless” The lifespan, the time, the occasion and the destiny are unknown for all. There is no sign at all. This is interesting because the unpredictable nature of life is usually a condition for fear. Reflected on wisely, however, it can be a condition for calm instead. 7.”As to the limitedness of the extent”. Life is short and reflecting wisely should be a condition for good deeds and wholesome mental states. ‘So short in fact is the extent of life that it is not certain even for as long as it takes to chew and swallow four or five mouthfuls’. 8. “as to the shortness of the moment”. ‘In the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment....” In other words, life is just at this very moment, this very citta. “When the consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased” and as we’ve read so many times: “ “Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is ) not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; the highest sense this concept will allow” “ (Nd1,42) ********** Reflecting on death in these ways, naturally now, may be a condition for samatha(calm) and if there is clear understanding of the moments when the citta is calm-- unlike when there is attachment or aversion for example-- it may be a condition for more moments of samatha in future without any special wishing or trying. These are just a few example of how I find it helpful to reflect when I hear about ‘timely’ or ‘untimely’ deaths. Many thanks again for your comments and helpful reminders. Sarah ========================== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > --------- > The vinaya proscribes suicide . It is dukkata (the least serious > offense)for monks to commit or attempt suicide. The commentaries say > that one should not kill oneself even by starvation, and the texts > stress on the value of human life - especially at a time when the > Dhamma is available. > But I remember they also say that if one is dying of an illness and > near to death that it is acceptable for one to decide to stop eating > even though this may hasten the process. (But euthanasia -assisting > another to die is definitely frowned on). Anyway you seem to be > reflecting wisely on all this Christine. I think we can't judge > easily the citta of someone. Some might think "oh, he/she commited > suicide" and perhaps have a feeling 'we' are a little wiser in our > approach to life. But we don't know their destiny or how they or we > will fare in future lives. > kind regards > robert 12531 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 0:51am Subject: Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka Dear Sarah and Sukin, :-) Recently, I've been reading 'Association with the Wise' (Bodhi) and a number of suttas about Admirable Friends Of course, you both (plus many others on this List) meet the key criteria in this regard.....:- ) I wondered if we may consider adding a 'special dsg clause' to the well-known definition? :-) "An admirable friend will always divulge (long before people are irrevocably committed to a course of action) what *All* the opportunities and all the risks are." :-) :-) I've talked a lot about the value of Dhamma discussions, supportive friendships, and listening to the Teachings being explained - and know well the contentment and delight your company brings - so how do I reconcile my high opinion with the fact that I heard nothing from either of you - not a word - not one whisper - not even a hint - about the 93 (Ninety Three) varieties of Snakes in Sri Lanka. It took my non-buddhist non-believing workmates to draw this to my attention......they are currently offering to take up a collection for 'gaiters' and/or 'a wake'. I have occasional encounters with goannas, red bellied black snakes and rough scaled snakes and have a tree snake who is a resident of the roof with everything else - but ninety three varieties!! ( it'll probably be O.K., they are telling me, only five varieties can kill you - they're not sure which five though...) I'm sure this was just an oversight? :-) metta, Chris Sarah - I appreciated your post on Sri Lanka and look forward to seeing more.:-) 12532 From: egberdina Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 4:51am Subject: Re: sense bases-Ken H Dear Sarah, There is no seeing without eyes. There is no dsg without Internet. You share about parramattha dhammas, I see you in my mind's eye, those dexterous digits typing, typing and typing, but not before you have turned your computer on, and launched your browser or mail software. Jon walks past, and gives you a hug, (Do Buddhists hug ? just in case we ever meet, so I'll know what is OK) you stand, and walk to the bookshelf, and reach for that commentary that will back up your point. The mobile rings, as the doorbell goes, what to do? You need not censor yourself in any way shape or form on my account, and I promise that I won't do it either :-) Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Ken H and Herman, > > Thank you for both replying to the same post of mine on cakkhu pasada > (eye-sense). You both quoted the same extract and made the following > comments: > .......... > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Sarah and > Robert K > > > > Thank you both for your replies which combine beautifully to show me > > where I was going wrong. As you say, the texts are trying to dismiss > > any identification of an absolute reality with its conceptual > > counterpart. Knowing this, why should I quibble over the choice of > > words -- worrying that they don't suit the current form of my mere, > > intellectual understanding. > > > ********** > --- egberdina wrote: > --- In > dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > I have been finding it a little difficult to take you seriously > > lately. > > > > What about this to renew my confidence? Take a conceptually sharp > > pencil (both the sharpness and the pencil)... > > > > > For the less advanced, don't try this unless you have survived on air > > sandwiches for more than two months. > ********** > > Thankyou both for the opportunity to reflect on praise and blame;-)) > > From AN, (Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) > " ... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who > reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and > subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... > fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They > reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor > do they know these conditions as they really are. Gain, loss and so forth > take possession of their minds and hold sway there. they welcome the gain > which has arisen; they rebel against obscurity. They welcome the praise > which has arisen; they rebel against blame. They welcome the contentment > which has arisen; they rebel against pain. Thus given over to compliance > and hostility, they are not freed from birth, old age, death, sorrows, > lamentations, pains, miseries and tribulations. I say such folk are not > free from ill. " > *********** > > I find dsg proves an excellent opportunity to reflect on the worldly > conditions. It's so very easy to take the praise and blame `personally' > and for conceit and other kilesa to arise on account of the visible > objects (when we read messages) and so very rapidly too.Of course these > are merely different sankhara dhammas and not self and whenever any of > them arise, there are good opportunities for them to be the objects of > sati (awareness) too. > > If there were no seeing of objects at this moment, there would be no > conditions for these kilesa to arise on their account. As we know, each > moment of seeing only occurs if there are conditions for kamma to bring > its result right now. Conventionally we correctly say that if there were > no body, there would be no experiencing of temperature and other objects > experienced through the body. In the same way, we say, if there were no > eyes (or if they weren't open) there would be no objects seen (Herman's > point, I think). > > Still, in terms of awareness of the paramattha dhammas experienced, we > can be a little more precise. We can begin to see that body and eyes are > concepts and the rupas referred to as eye-sense and body-sense are very > different from the what we take for eyes and body. > > Herman,. I like talking to you about kids, because we both spend a lot of > our time with them. I'm sure you have the experience of calling them for > a meal when they are absorbed in a game. Sometimes it seems they just > don't hear one. I also had the experience the other day when I was > absorbed in writing to dsg and didn't seem to hear someone at the door for > the longest time .When we walk into walls (or wells in some cases), it > seems that we just didn't see in front of us. My point is simply that our > eyes and ears may be `open', but seeing and hearing --like all other > cittas--arise and fall away very fast and although it seems otherwise, do > not arise all the time. The vipaka cittas depend on the previous kamma and > many other conditions, expecially the contacting of the eye-sense or > ear-sense by the object, in order to arise. As we know, at times of strong > concentration or jhana, there are no conditions for sense-door experience. > > ..... > Sense-bases are a very tricky area for me to understand as well. I can see > why it can sound like so many `air sandwiches' and I apologise if you've > been getting hungrier and hungrier on this diet. I'd be happy if you > shouted sooner next time you'd like different ones. I believe I was > responding to a request from Ken H for the `air' type, but there are many > different tastes here and it's good to be reminded. > > I'm not sure if I've helped or hindered, but would be glad to hear in > either regard. Ken H, I also appreciated your reminder about reading all > these descriptions in the light of satipatthana. For me, that is the crux > and the value of the texts. > > Sarah > > p.s Herman, Still hoping you and Vicki will be able to get away for a > weekend of Noosa sea-breeze and your own choice of sandwiches. Ken H and > I'll even promise not to mention cakkhu pasada (eye-base) or the > commentaries if that helps;-)) > ================================================ 12533 From: egberdina Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 5:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Sarah, And what is death in a parramattha dhamma sense? Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, Michael and Rob K, > > Just a few more thoughts on suicide and death. Rob and Christine, I've > appreciated your references from the texts. I tend to think there's a > difference between the act motivated by the (wrong) idea that it will > bring about the end of being and suffering (annihilationist view) and the > dosa that just cannot bear `the pain' anymore without necessarily any > wrong idea. As we also know, any attachment in life, including attachment > to spiritual progress or experience, brings more suffering. > > What I really learn when I hear about `untimely deaths' is how death can > come at anytime to any of us. We really have no idea (unless we're > anagamis or arahants with no attachment to sense experiences) under what > circumstnaces we might perform such a deed. Num gave the medical examples > of those who turn mad from certain diseases and we've all read stories of > people who live in misery from severe physical and mental suffering. As > Chris suggested, they deserve our geatest sympathy and compassion I think. > .......... > > In the Vusuddhimagga we read about the Eight ways of Recollecting Death > that can condition samatha in daily life and your posts have been a > condition for me to reflect on these. In brief (ch V111): > > 1. "As having the appearance of a murderer" > We read how `this death, which comes along with birth, is like a murderer > with poised sword.'. We don't know when the murderer will come. Reflecting > on it can be a condition for dosa or it can be a condition for calm at > this moment. > > 2."As the ruin of success". > Death is the `final ruining of life's success'. It spares none. > > 3. "By Comparision". > Just as `those of great fame','of great merit', `of great strength', `of > great supernatural power' , `of > great unerstanding', `paccekabuddhas', ` fully enlightened Buddhas' die > and cannot escape, neither can we. > > 4. "As to the sharing of the body with many" > Death can come from any number of causes at any time because the body is > shared by so many families of worms, internal diseases `as well as by such > external causes of death as snakes, scorpions, and what not'. > > 5. "As to the frailty of life" > This is a favourite reflection on death for me. Life depends on the short > in and out breaths now, on the temperature and elements and nutriment. If > there is not any breath now, or if one is overcome by temperature or if > the elements are disturbed and so on, there is no life. > > 6. "As signless" > The lifespan, the time, the occasion and the destiny are unknown for all. > There is no sign at all. This is interesting because the unpredictable > nature of life is usually a condition for fear. Reflected on wisely, > however, it can be a condition for calm instead. > > 7."As to the limitedness of the extent". > Life is short and reflecting wisely should be a condition for good deeds > and wholesome mental states. `So short in fact is the extent of life that > it is not certain even for as long as it takes to chew and swallow four or > five mouthfuls'. > > 8. "as to the shortness of the moment". > `In the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely > short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious > moment...." In other words, life is just at this very moment, this very > citta. "When the consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have > ceased" and as we've read so many times: > > " "Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is ) not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; > the highest sense this concept will allow" " (Nd1,42) > > ********** > > Reflecting on death in these ways, naturally now, may be a condition for > samatha(calm) and if there is clear understanding of the moments when the > citta is calm-- unlike when there is attachment or aversion for example-- > it may be a condition for more moments of samatha in future without any > special wishing or trying. > > These are just a few example of how I find it helpful to reflect when I > hear about `timely' or `untimely' deaths. > > Many thanks again for your comments and helpful reminders. > > Sarah 12534 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense bases-Ken H Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > > You need not censor yourself in any way shape or form on my account, > and I promise that I won't do it either :-) > Well If you'd told me the pencil-stabbing post was the censored version, I'd be worried about what the uncensored one was like...so I'm relieved to hear that.....;-) with cyber hugs, Sarah p.s did you tell your youngest that he looks likely to win the album Big Smile prize???? (I'll have to consult with the Album Crack Team as to what that may be..hmmm.....you may have to join us in Qld just to pick it up as he may not appreciate a Dhammapada verse;-)) ================================================== 12535 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > And what is death in a parramattha dhamma sense? > In the ultimate sense it is there is death of consciousness at each moment and what we call conventional death is ultimately like this moment, i.e the arising and falling away of yet another moment of consciousness. In other words, the last reflection I mentioned below is with regard to the death in the paramattha sense. I'd be happy to discuss this further. Herman, the understanding of paramattha dhammas is very deep and I appreciate your comments and objections. I'd like to find a way of discussing this area further that doesn't make it sound like we're on different planets. Sarah ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > 8. "as to the shortness of the moment". > > `In the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely > > short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious > > moment...." In other words, life is just at this very moment, this > very > > citta. "When the consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have > > ceased" and as we've read so many times: > > > > " "Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > > Are all alike, gone never to return. > > No (world is) born if (consciousness is ) not > > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; > > the highest sense this concept will allow" " (Nd1,42) > > > > ********** 12536 From: Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Hi Robert, Sarah, Christine, Larry and everyone; Sarah, hope you don't mind me saying something about suicide and depression on dsg. The single most common cause of suicide is depressive disorder. The disease that got most misunderstanding and left untreated is depression. Depression causes tremendous of lost to society, friends and families. According to WHO, depressive disorder is the 4th burden disability globally, second only to respiratory tract infection, diarrhea and perinatal disorders. Well, the causes of depressive disorder are unclear. Genetic, biological background and psychosocial issue are always interacted. A lot of medical disorders can cause or present with depression including for example thyroid disorders, some infectious disease, AIDS, cancer and stroke. Alcohol and drug abuse have a lot of role here. Some prescribed medications can induce depression. Genetic plays a big role in depression as well. Most of mood disorders run in family. Psycho-social issues always play a big parts in initiating and maintaining of depression. Body and mind are always interacted. To me when someone attempts suicide, it's a cry for help from the inner pain, not a cry for intention. When depression comes, one sees only the negative side of the world, see no way out of the situation. It can be serious to the point of being obsessive with negative thought, self-depreciation, delusional and even fatal-suicidal. The good news is depression is a treatable disease. There are different levels of approach of treatment. I prefer not to discuss about Ven.Nanariya's life. He seemed to be in a great pain. He deserved great sympathy and compassion. Being a monk is big devotion and determination. I always have a great respect and admiration to anyone who chooses that path. Well, all I want to say is depression is an illness, not a weakness. Depression as a disease is not the same as the sadness when we left our families or friends. Depressive disorder is a fatal disease. With metta and karuna. Best wishes, Num 12537 From: Lucy Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Hi Kom, Num, Larry Larry wrote: > Hi Num, good response. Actually, both views make sense to me: khandhas > are dukkha - or - _attachment_ to khandhas cause dukkha. Maybe there is > not much difference. My main qualm is that by saying attachment to > khandhas causes suffering I tend to hope there could be some khandhas I > could enjoy after I let go of the attachment. That seems to be a suspect > logic I find in myself. > > I hope the others will have something to say about this. It's an old > debate and I doubt if we will settle it. > This may be pertinent to your point, Larry: from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-022.html (also worth reading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's note on the same URL --- I won't include it here or we'll all be back into concepts again !!!) Lucy ========================================= Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 Bhara Sutta (The Burden) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- At Savatthi. "Monks, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the casting off of the burden. [1] Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. "And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. This is called the taking up of the burden. "And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. This is called the casting off of the burden." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-gone, the Teacher, said further: A burden indeed are the five aggregates, and the carrier of the burden is the person. Taking up the burden in the world is stressful. Casting off the burden is bliss. Having cast off the heavy burden and not taking on another, pulling up craving, along with its root, one is free from hunger, totally unbound. 12538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep [re-post] [This is a re-post of a message that I sent 2 days ago but hasn't shown up on the list. Apologies if it turns out to be a repeat] Rob Ep Thanks for the sporting invitation to come back with an equal and opposite reaction. But actually, I just want to make some general observations about samatha bhavana (so can I take a rain check on the strong reply?). Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated with kusala citta accompanied by panna. 'Tranquillity' here is a specific cetasika (passadhi). Concentration comes into the picture because at the higher levels of samatha, as the panna becomes more developed, the particular kammathana (meditation subject) remains the object of the consciousness for longer and longer periods. The sequence of this is important. The concentration on a single object, as I understand it, is something that follows naturally from the development of kusala and its associated tranquillity. Thus: Kusala (with panna) --> tranquillity --> concentration. It seems to be the generally held view nowadays, and the sense I get from your post (below), that the development of samatha *begins by concentrating on a selected object* (e.g. the breath) until the mind settles down and eventually 'true calm' arises, at which stage it becomes kusala and in due course (somehow) kusala with panna. This suggests to me an entirely different sequence to the one I have outlined above, a sequence that looks like this: Concentration --> tranquillity --> kusala (--> kusala with panna). As I have mentioned before, concentration itself is not intrinsically wholesome or unwholesome. It's true that concentration is mentioned in the suttas in the context of high mental attainments including insight, but these references must be understood as being the concentration that *results from the development of samatha/tranquillity* and, in some contexts, from the development of insight itself. So concentration (which is a necessary ingredient of non-wholesome skills also) cannot itself condition any form of kusala. As you will have gathered by now, I happen to think that samatha bhavana is a pretty much misunderstood subject. It's not that I am not interested in it -- I am, but as with vipassana I believe it has to be properly understood first. There seems to be a particularly prevalent idea of samatha as something that if practised or further developed will allow us to have more direct knowledge of realities. If you think about it for a moment, this view works against acceptance of the idea that such direct knowledge, or the groundwork for it, can be nurtured at this very moment. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > ... ... ... > I agree with you. In fact one can focus on the breath in a way that explicitly > causes more tension, pain and delusion. The breath in and of itself is no > guarantee of anything. > > However, the breath is a worthy object for calming the body and mind, because when > it is slowed, relaxed and extended, there is a physiological mechanism which > induces calm and peacefulness through the autonomic nervous system with which the > breath is associated. Beyond this, the concentration of the mind *in a relaxed > and released manner* tends to slow down thoughts, enhance perception and create a > mind and nervous system that is more available for discernment and intelligent > reflection. > > This in itself is not enlightenment, is not even insight. It is just setting up > positive conditions. Can we know whether the state thus achieved is kusala or > akusala? This is one of the arguments we have had before. You say that we can be > misled into thinking it's a kusala state because it's calm. I say that's no > reason not to do it, as we will get more skillful and more discerning if our > intention is to keep looking into the matter and become more skillful at it. > Because it is like any other skill. Eventually, one can tell that it either works > or doesn't work. If we are not cultivating true peacefulness, we may suppress a > lot of junk for a while and think it is true peacefulness, but the human feedback > system is such that those things don't stay down for long. They will spring up > with an expression of negativity and give us a sign that we are on the wrong > track. Accompanied by suttas, spiritual friends and continued self-questioning to > look at what the state is really like, I see no reason why a person would not make > gradual progress. > > The idea that one would follow the Buddha's teachings, seek spiritual advice, do > concentrated breathing meditation with the intention to reach a state of peace > where greater insight becomes possible, because a lot of errant thoughts and > feelings have been gotten out of one's face for a while, allowing us to > concentrate better, and in a less restless and reactive state of mind, and that > with all this one could consistently still be going down the wrong path and in > fact cultivating akusala states, seems unnecessarily pessimistic. And I don't see > why the gradual cultivation of another path, namely reading suttas and discerning > the present reality in everyday life, is going to have any greater chance of > success, if akusala is *that* devious that we have no hope of discerning it, even > with repeated efforts. > > So it seems like a false argument that somehow the breath is not a worthy object > for achieving samatha because if used wrongly it may *not* lead to a kusala state. > That's true of everything. > > That's all for now. I will be interested to hear back from you. I know I was > pretty direct, so I'm braced for an 'equal and opposite reaction', as someone once > said. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 12539 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 4:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (7-11) Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > From: srnsk@a... [mailto:srnsk@a...] > > As I understand it. Only through the body sense that the 4 great > elements (4 > mahabhutarupa) can impinge directly on pasada-rupa, which is a > kind of rupas Sort of lost track of who said this statement. I think what should have been said is that only 3 of the mahabhuta-rupa can impinge directly on pasada-rupa. The remaining element, the water element, can only be known by the mind door. kom 12540 From: azita gill Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions for Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 06-04-2002 00:59 schreef yuzhonghao op > victoryu@s...: > > Dear Nina. IN this post you Quoted something from Sukin about daily life and I unfortunately cannot remember it all, however my queries are: I understand 'one' can do nothing to hasten the dev. of sati,etc. and I do a reasonable amount of reading plus reading many of these posts on dsg. and I think theoretically I understand about nama and rupa, so why does it make me feel [often] so sad and teary when I read these - wht I consider - most profound teachings? I read your 'perfections' and just the first one on resolution/determination had me in tears. Now, to me this is very strange - I expected to perhaps, feel a little calmer, hardly sad or depressed to read such profundity. It seems many of the things I really enjoyed doing, don't feel like much 'fun'anymore? i I know there are many,many different moments in all of this , but I do feel I need some support here; I kind of know what you are going to say, and yet, well tell me anyway. q Nina, I appreciate greatly your wonderful writings and your precious quotes from K. Sujin. l Metta, Azita. 12541 From: Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 0:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (7-11) Hi Kom, I am about to leave my office. <> <> Oh-oh, you got me ;-) You are right. I meant to say just mahabhutarupa but "4" automatically came along. I am more impulsive than compulsive. Thanks and appreciated your attention. Please do not hesitate to correct even in slightest minor points. Anumodana. Enchanted. :-) Num 12542 From: azita gill Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Azita - back to Christine --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Azita, > > > dear Christine, I can't keep up with al the posts on dsg. so have only just discovered this one. My No. is 40550579. love to hear from you and looking forward to meeting you in May. z may all beings be happy, > Azita. > > > > 12543 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep Rob Ep Thanks for the sporting invitation to come back with an equal and opposite reaction. But actually, I just want to make some general observations about samatha bhavana (so can I take a rain check on the strong reply?). Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated with kusala citta accompanied by panna. 'Tranquillity' here is a specific cetasika (passadhi). Concentration comes into the picture because at the higher levels of samatha, as the panna becomes more developed, the particular kammathana (meditation subject) remains the object of the consciousness for longer and longer periods. The sequence of this is important. As I understand it, the concentration of the mind on a single object for successive moments is something that follows naturally from the development of kusala and its associated tranquillity. Thus: Kusala (with panna) --> tranquillity --> concentration. It seems to be the generally held view nowadays, and the sense I get from your post (below), that the development of samatha *begins by concentrating on a selected object* (e.g. the breath) until the mind settles down and eventually 'true calm' arises, at which stage it becomes kusala and in due course (somehow) kusala with panna. This suggests to me an entirely different sequence to the one I have outlined above, a sequence that looks like this: Concentration --> tranquillity --> kusala (--> kusala with panna). As I have mentioned before, concentration itself is not intrinsically wholesome or unwholesome. It's true that concentration is mentioned in the suttas in the context of high mental attainments including insight, but these references must be understood as being the concentration that *results from the development of samatha/tranquillity* and, in some contexts, from the development of insight itself. So concentration (which is a necessary ingredient of non-wholesome skills also) cannot itself condition any form of kusala. As you will have gathered by now, I happen to think that samatha bhavana is a pretty much misunderstood subject. It's not that I am not interested in it -- I am, but as with vipassana I believe it has to be properly understood first. There seems to be a particularly prevalent idea of samatha as something that if practised or further developed will allow us to have more direct knowledge of realities. If you think about it for a moment, this view works against acceptance of the idea that such direct knowledge, or the groundwork for it, can be nurtured at this very moment. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > .... > I agree with you. In fact one can focus on the breath in a way that explicitly > causes more tension, pain and delusion. The breath in and of itself is no > guarantee of anything. > > However, the breath is a worthy object for calming the body and mind, because when > it is slowed, relaxed and extended, there is a physiological mechanism which > induces calm and peacefulness through the autonomic nervous system with which the > breath is associated. Beyond this, the concentration of the mind *in a relaxed > and released manner* tends to slow down thoughts, enhance perception and create a > mind and nervous system that is more available for discernment and intelligent > reflection. > > This in itself is not enlightenment, is not even insight. It is just setting up > positive conditions. Can we know whether the state thus achieved is kusala or > akusala? This is one of the arguments we have had before. You say that we can be > misled into thinking it's a kusala state because it's calm. I say that's no > reason not to do it, as we will get more skillful and more discerning if our > intention is to keep looking into the matter and become more skillful at it. > Because it is like any other skill. Eventually, one can tell that it either works > or doesn't work. If we are not cultivating true peacefulness, we may suppress a > lot of junk for a while and think it is true peacefulness, but the human feedback > system is such that those things don't stay down for long. They will spring up > with an expression of negativity and give us a sign that we are on the wrong > track. Accompanied by suttas, spiritual friends and continued self-questioning to > look at what the state is really like, I see no reason why a person would not make > gradual progress. > > The idea that one would follow the Buddha's teachings, seek spiritual advice, do > concentrated breathing meditation with the intention to reach a state of peace > where greater insight becomes possible, because a lot of errant thoughts and > feelings have been gotten out of one's face for a while, allowing us to > concentrate better, and in a less restless and reactive state of mind, and that > with all this one could consistently still be going down the wrong path and in > fact cultivating akusala states, seems unnecessarily pessimistic. And I don't see > why the gradual cultivation of another path, namely reading suttas and discerning > the present reality in everyday life, is going to have any greater chance of > success, if akusala is *that* devious that we have no hope of discerning it, even > with repeated efforts. > > So it seems like a false argument that somehow the breath is not a worthy object > for achieving samatha because if used wrongly it may *not* lead to a kusala state. > That's true of everything. > > That's all for now. I will be interested to hear back from you. I know I was > pretty direct, so I'm braced for an 'equal and opposite reaction', as someone once > said. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 12544 From: Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:27pm Subject: ADL ch. 3 (7-11) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 3, paragraphs 7 - 11 7. Each citta which arises falls away completely and is succeeded by the next citta. How then can there be accumulations of experiences in life, accumulations of good and bad inclinations? The reason is that each citta which falls away is succeeded by the next citta. Our life is an uninterrupted series of cittas and each citta conditions the next citta and this again the next, and thus the past can condition the present. It is a fact that our good cittas and bad cittas in the past condition our inclinations today. Thus, good and bad inclinations are accumulated. 8. We all have accumulated many impure inclinations and defilements (in Pali:kilesa). Kilesa is for instance greed (lobha), anger (dosa) and ignorance (moha). There are different degrees of defilements: there are subtle defilements or latent tendencies, medium defilements and gross defilements. Subtle defilements do not appear with the citta, but they are latent tendencies which are accumulated in the citta. At the time we are asleep and not dreaming there are no akusala cittas but there are unwholesome latent tendencies. When we wake up akusala cittas arise again. How could they appear if there were not in each citta accumulated unwholesome latent tendencies? Even when the citta is not akusala there are unwholesome latent tendencies so long as they have not been eradicated by wisdom. Medium defilement is different from subtle defilement since it arises with the citta. Medium defilement arises with cittas rooted in lobha, dosa and moha. Medium defilement is, for example, attachment to what one sees, or ears or experiences through the body-sense, or aversion towards the objects one experiences. Medium defilement does not condition ill deeds. Gross defilement conditons unwholesome actions (akusala kamma) through body, speech and mind, such as killing, slandering or the desire to take away other people's possessions. Kamma (intention) is a mental phenomenon and thus it can be accumulated. People accumulate different defilements and different kammas. 9. Different accumulations of kamma are the condition for different results in life. This is the law of kamma and vipaka, of cause and result. We see that people are born into different circumstances. Some people live in agreeable surroundings and they have many pleasant experiences in their lives. Other people may often have disagreeable experiences; they are poor or they suffer from ill health. When we hear about children who suffer from malnutrition, we wonder why they have to suffer while other children receive everything they need. The Buddha taught that everyone receives the result of his own deeds. A deed or kamma of the past can bring its result later on, because akusala kamma and kusala kamma are accumulated. When there are the right conditions the result can be brought about in the form of vipaka. When the word 'result' is used, people may think of the consequences of their deeds for other people, but 'result' in the sense of vipaka has a different meaning. Vipakacitta is a citta which experiences something unpleasant or something pleasant and this citta is the result of a deed we did ourselves. We are used to thinking of a self which experiences unpleasant and pleasant things. However, there is no self; there are only cittas which experience different objects. Some cittas are cause; they can motivate good deeds or bad deeds which are capable of bringing about their appropriate results. Some cittas are result or vipaka. When we see something unpleasant, it is not self which sees; it is a citta, seeing-consciousness, which is the result of an unwholesome deed (akusala kamma) we performed either in this life or in a past life. This kind of citta is akusala vipaka. When we see something pleasant, it is a citta which is kusala vipaka the result of a wholesome deed we performed. Every time we experience an unpleasant. object through one of the five senses, there is akusala vipaka Every time we experience a pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka. 10. lf one is being hit by someone else, the pain one feel is not the vipaka (result) of the deed performed by the other person. The person who is being hit receives the result of a bad deed he performed himself; for him there is akusala vipaka through the body-sense. The other person's action is only the proximate cause of his pain. As regards the other person who performs the bad deed, it is his akusala citta which motivates that deed. Sooner or later he will receive the result of his own bad deed. When we have more understanding of kamma and vipaka we will see many events of our life more clearly. 11. The 'Atthasalini' (Book I, Analysis of Terms, Part II, 65) explains that kamma of different people causes different results at birth and all through life. Even bodily features are the rest of kamma. We read: ...ln dependence on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the destiny of beings without legs with two legs, four legs, many legs, vegetative, spiritual. with perception, without perception, with neither perception nor without perception. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the births of beings, high and low, base and exalted, happy and miserable. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the individual features of beings as beautiful or ugly, high-born or low-born, well-built or deformed. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the worldly conditions of beings as gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, happiness and misery. Further on we read: By kamma the world moves, by kamma men Live, and by kamma are all beings bound As by its pin the rolling chariot wheel. 12545 From: Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (7-11) Dear group, I'm wondering if proximate cause works the same as kamma. Is intention necessary, is citta necessary, does vipaka have the same qualifications. Kamma doesn't seem to be an object of satipatthana, presumably proximate cause can be, correct? Larry --------------------- "10. lf one is being hit by someone else, the pain one feel is not the vipaka (result) of the deed performed by the other person. The person who is being hit receives the result of a bad deed he performed himself; for him there is akusala vipaka through the body-sense. The other person's action is only the proximate cause of his pain." 12546 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts & realities Goglerr Hi and welcome to the list from me. Thanks for coming in on this thread. --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Lucy and Jon, > > Distinguishing of nama and rupa through reflection and thinking is > praiseworthy (although theory is one of the precursor), but not > enough to develop penetrating wisdom. A useful reminder, one which cannot be heard too often. As you say, correct theoretical understanding of the difference between nama and rupa is a prerequisite to the arising of the knowledge/insight that knows this difference directly. I found interesting the rest of your post in which you discuss the development of insight by reference to the different kinds of lakkhana (briefly, if I have understood you correctly, awareness of a dhamma leads to the seeing of it’s individual essence or characteristic, then to its nature of arising and falling, then to the perception of anicca, dukkha and anatta in relation to the dhamma). I would agree that the 3 characteristics are not fully penetrated until enlightenment is attained (I think this is clearly stated in the Visuddhimagga). I would just like to add the suggestion that the development of the understanding of these characteristics, and of the other characteristics you mention, actually begins with the development of awareness and proceeds gradually as insight is accumulated. But perhaps what you have said was not intended to suggest otherwise. Also, we should add into your progressive description somewhere the knowledge of the distinction between nama and rupa discussed above. To my understanding, it belongs at the very beginning, before even the knowledge of the individual essence or characteristic. Would you agree with this? Finally, I note that in your ‘PS 1’ you equate ‘sabhaava’ with ‘visesa lakkhana’. Could you expand a little on this for us? I would be particularly interested in any textual references you may have. Many thanks. Jon > Through the development of the > 4 foundation of mindfulness, calm and insight (on the whole, the 37 > factors of enlightenment), the nature of body and mind, become > distinctive. For example the nature of wind element (motion), which > is the one of the elements the body, becomes clear by knowing it > directly, without thinking but bare attention. The wind element > appears in many a different forms to the to an attentive and ardent > observer. The knowing of the of the element is mind. Sometimes it is > appeared as motion, slow, fast, winding, circling, zigzag, tension, > stiffness etc. The appearances are what is called sabhava lakkhana in > Pali. Sabhava = distinguished/unique. Lakkhana = characteristic. > Sabhava lakkhana is the unique characteristics of a certain mind or > body phenomena. > > Later when mental development takes place or nurtured, the triple > characteristics (sankhata lakkhana) will arise. You say anicca, > dukkha, anatta? No, not that yet!! Any mind or body phenomena will > have these sankhata lakkhana, i.e. the arising/beginning, the > presence/middle, and the end/passing away. So an ardent observer will > see these phenomena of mind and body as arising and passing away. > > Next, these triple stages of beginning, middle and end after being > known, the universal characteristic (samanna lakkhana – the > double n in the word samanna has the curls on the top) of the mind > and body appears clearly to an ardent observer. Now the anicca, > dukkha and anatta become apparent. At one particular moment, > sometimes anicca is more apparent than the other two characteristics, > sometimes dukkha is more apparent and sometimes anatta. [On a bigger > picture – say from zero to total liberation – the path that wisdom > arises will on the course of anicca, dukkha, then anatta]. Only by > seeing and investigating throughly the nature of sabhava lakkhana, > the real nature of of aniccca, dukkha and anatta (samanna lakkhana) > will arise. These perception of anicca, dukkha, anatta are what we > called wisdom, in other word insight. And because awareness has > becomes sharp and clear too, where the power of mindfulness and > concentration are also developed. And now segregation the mind and > body occurs, just like an executioner chopped off the head of a man, > to become two entities. And we also by chopping the delusion, > temporary, find that there are only two entities of mind and body, > without a soul or self, just arising and passing away. > > Briefly, as we develop more and more the power of energy, mindfulness > and concentration, to dispel the thick delusion in us, to see deeper > and subtle nature of anicca, dukkha and anatta in every aspects of > mind and body. And when the progress of wisdom or insight reaches it > maturity, anicca, dukkha and anatta becomes the key and gateway to > liberation, where the mind leaps into non-arising or non-occurance > i.e. the total cessation of mind and matter, the eye of the Dhamma, > Nibbana. And with this liberation too, certain defilement are > uprooted forever. And with the uprooting of defilement, the exit of > samsara is ASSURED. > > goglerr > > p.s 1. - sabhava lakkhana is synonymous with visesa lakkhana. > p.s 2. - samanna lakkhana is also synonymous with tilakkhana 12547 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah and Sukin, :-) > > Recently, I've been reading 'Association with the Wise' (Bodhi) and > a number of suttas about Admirable Friends Of course, you both (plus > many others on this List) meet the key criteria in this regard.....:- > ) I wondered if we may consider adding a 'special dsg clause' to the > well-known definition? :-) > "An admirable friend will always divulge (long before people are > irrevocably committed to a course of action) what *All* the > opportunities and all the risks are." :-) ..... Ah, this assumes the ‘admirable friend’ knows the *All* which is pretty unlikely I’d have thought;-) ..... > :-) I've talked a lot about the value of Dhamma discussions, > supportive friendships, and listening to the Teachings being > explained - and know well the contentment and delight your company > brings - so how do I reconcile my high opinion with the fact that I > heard nothing from either of you - not a word - not one whisper - not > even a hint - about the 93 (Ninety Three) varieties of Snakes in Sri > Lanka. ..... Now, Chris, not all friends interested in the Dhamma are also experts on Snakes in Sri Lanka;-))...... However in the good ‘ol days when I was an earnest meditator living in a forest temple in Sri Lanka I did have a little first-hand experience if that helps???. In my tiny kuti (room/cell), I’d sit cross-legged on the plank which trebled as my bed, seat and table, focussing a la Mahasi instructions as any number of creatures would scurry or crawl or wind their way across the open rafters above my head. Of course, I would keep my eyes closed and not be disturbed by all these ‘Admirable Friends’. However, I do remember one day in particular, failing to keep to the ‘rules’. There was a particularly noisy scurry and gulping sound with other screeching and hissing sound effects. I opened one eye just in time to see one of your 93 varieties swallow a rat above just my head;-) ..... >It took my non-buddhist non-believing workmates to draw this > to my attention......they are currently offering to take up a > collection for 'gaiters' and/or 'a wake'. I have occasional > encounters with goannas, red bellied black snakes and rough scaled > snakes and have a tree snake who is a resident of the roof with > everything else - but ninety three varieties!! ( it'll probably be > O.K., they are telling me, only five varieties can kill you - they're > not sure which five though...) > > I'm sure this was just an oversight? :-) ..... Sometimes it takes our ‘non-buddhist non-believing workmates’ to remind us of a few practicalities and essential concepts (as Herman would point out). Glad to see you doing your own preparation which many may find more colourful than the Mahavamsa study . I’m sure they’ll look forward to more of your alternative preparations and anecdotes when hopefuly you return alive. ..... > Sarah - I appreciated your post on Sri Lanka and look forward to > seeing more.:-) ..... I’m glad you added this afterthought:-) With two sentences of encouragement (one off-list), I’ll look forward to reading and writing more when I have time :-) Sarah p.s I don’t believe we’ll be sleeping on bare planks in remote jungles btw;-) ===================================================== 12548 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Rob Ep (and Christine), I agree your comments below about the pivotal understanding of anatta and appreciate the way you’ve described it. I also liked the summary you wrote for Betty, emphasising the importance of anatta again.Many thanks Rob for your articulate and helpful words. Christine, I was also glad to follow the link you gave to B.Bodhi’s explanations on anicca and ‘three stages’ and was most impressed at how user-friendly some of these sites are now. Thank you for all the links you give. Sarah p.s re bks you’re waiting for from S.L. as mentioned in another post....There may be time to slip into the BPS bkshop in Kandy when we’re there and hopefully a chance to visit B.Bodhi. ========================================= --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Christine, > I think that anatta is the pivotal understanding upon which all the > other ones > rotate. Without it, they also disappear. Having no central, immutable > or > permanent 'self' that can be found within, is the reason why anicca is > so -- there > is no permanent self, so all self and other definitions are temporary > and > relative; and why dukkha exists: there is no permanent or defineable > internal > self, and therefore all phenomena are inherently unsatisfying. > > If we had a true self to find, it would not be unsatisfying and would > not be > impermanent. So, non-self: anicca and dukkha exist; self: anicca and > dukkha > disappear. > > In mystical Hinduism, one finds the atman, the 'inner self' and it is > the only > thing that is permanent in the world. In buddhism, there is no inner > self. To me > that is the only substantial difference between the two traditions, > because both > speak about the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of all worldly > phenomena. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > **************************************************************** 12549 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) Dear Larry, Great questions and comments in your many posts;-) In an earlier one you asked about "what cohesion is as in the water element? Is that fluidity?" This is a difficult point to understand. I didn't see an answer,so I'll just pick it up briefly here before I forget. As Kom just reminded us , this primary element can only be experienced (along with many other rupas) through the mind-door and so it is not as easy to understand as temperature, solidity and motion which are experienced through the body-sense. Let me just quote from Abhid Sangaha (p.238 BB trans)on apodhatu (water element): "The water element, or fluidity, is the material factor that makes different particles of matter cohere, thereby preventing them from being scattered about. Its characteristic is trickling or oozing, its function is to intensify the coexisting material states, and it is manifested as the holding together or cohesion of material phenomena. Its proximate cause is the other three great essentials. the water element cannot be physically sensed but must be known inferentially from the cohesion of observed matter." ***** You asked what characteristics of rupa are experienced by the mind. Initially, it may be just the characteristic of 'rupaness' as opposed to 'namaness' that is known. When It comes to water element, it can be difficult to even understand its nature intellectually, I think. ***** More recently you ask: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, I wonder if the mark that sanna makes is the birth of > concept. If not, where does concept come from? I think this is correct. Without sanna, there would certainly be no concepts at all. Sanna plays a very key role and the marking at each moment, combined with many, many other factors such as manasikara (attention) phassa (contact),vitakka(thinking) and vicara(applied thinking). You may wish to review the posts on sanna in Useful Posts, but I understand this may be difficult for your computer censor. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts In appreciation of your entusiasm and hard work in the ADL corner, Sarah ========== > -------------------- > 18. Sannakkhandha (perception) is real; it can be experienced whenever > we remember something. There is sanna with every moment of citta. Each > citta which arises experiences an object and sanna which arises with the > citta remembers and 'marks' that object so that it can be recognized. > Even when there is a moment that one does not recognize something citta > still experiences an object at that moment and sanna which arises with > the citta 'marks' that object. Sanna arises and falls away with the > citta; sanna is impermanent. As long as we do not see sanna as it really > is: only a mental phenomenon which falls away as soon as it has arisen, > we will take sanna for self ************ 12550 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 0:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > "The water element, or fluidity, is the material > factor that makes > different particles of matter cohere, thereby > preventing them from being > scattered about. Its characteristic is trickling > or oozing, its function > is to intensify the coexisting material states, > and it is manifested as > the holding together or cohesion of material > phenomena. Its proximate > cause is the other three great essentials. the > water element cannot be > physically sensed but must be known inferentially > from the cohesion of > observed matter." > ***** Did the text expand what being known inferentially means? As I understand, one "easy" way to explain paramatha dhamma is that it is a reality that can be directly known without thinking. However, being inferntial (in the conventional sense) brings us closer to thinking. I wonder if the text would describe other forms of rupas (besides the 7) as can be known inferentially. kom 12551 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 1:01am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote > > cause is the other three great essentials. the > > water element cannot be > > physically sensed but must be known inferentially > > from the cohesion of > > observed matter." > > ***** > > Did the text expand what being known inferentially means? > As I understand, one "easy" way to explain paramatha dhamma > is that it is a reality that can be directly known without > thinking. However, being inferntial (in the conventional > sense) brings us closer to thinking. I wonder if the text > would describe other forms of rupas (besides the 7) as can > be known inferentially. I've got students about to arrive, so I'll consider later.....I also wondered what this meant. At a quick glance, I can't see 'inferentially' used with regard to any other subtle rupas for example. Perhaps it means it is the characteristic of cohesion is only known inferentially from experiences through the bodysense (which doesn't mean it isn't known as a paramattha dhamma through the mind door). that's my best on the run;-) Glad to see your other good answers to the ADL corner questions and appreciate your keeping a close eye on Num and the rest of us;-)) Sarah ========= 12552 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka Dear Sarah, and All, Sarah said: "p.s re bks you're waiting for from S.L. as mentioned in another post....There may be time to slip into the BPS bkshop in Kandy when we're there and hopefully a chance to visit B.Bodhi." ---------------------------- Chris: - you wouldn't joke about the possibility of meeting Bhikkhu Bodhi (however slim) would you, Sarah? It would be so wonderful, a wish come true.....though I realise the chance would only be very slight.....such a highly respected and very busy man with lots of people wanting to meet him, and many other important calls on his time......as you know, I have a great admiration for him and his writings...... :-) ----------------------------- Sarah said:"However, I do remember one day in particular, failing to keep to the `rules'. There was a particularly noisy scurry and gulping sound with other screeching and hissing sound effects. I opened one eye just in time to see one of your 93 varieties swallow a rat above just my head;-)" ------------------------------ Chris: - Keeping on your good side after the mention of B.Bodhi, I won't mention any scepticism about snakes making a 'gulping' sound. If you say it did Sarah, then it did! This brings up a Dhamma focus question (seriously) - Is there a Buddhist scripture relating to "not saving" - this is pertinent for me, having rescued a small lizard caught up in a spider web. I'm not sure if the lizard was grateful, But the spider was furious...no dinner, and having to repair his home... So - was it a good thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing....depriving a being of sustenance, and damaging his living area? Should we let whatever is happening to another being (human or otherwise) happen? If we intervene, are we just delaying the fruits of their kamma?....Or were we meant to save them? --------------------------------- Sarah said: "p.s I don't believe we'll be sleeping on bare planks in remote jungles btw;-)" --------------------------------- Chris - A nicely padded plank in the Colombo Hilton will do.... :-) metta Christine 12553 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 6:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Larry, > > This sutta may be relevant: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-001.html > > In this sutta, the Buddha V. Sariputta differentiated two > sort of people: > 1) People who are afflicted by both the body and the mind > 2) People who are afflicted by the body, but not the mind. > > The buddha and the arahat who has not reached pari-nibbana > still suffers in the body from the continuing arising and > falling away of the 5 kandhas, but because they no longer > has updadana to the 5 kandhas, they are not afflicted in the > mind. Good points and a good sutta. One reason I particularly like this sutta is because it's a good example of how --for some people like Nakulapita-- the Buddha's words in person were not enough and how they needed to have the words explained in more detail by others such as Sariputta (even though they may not have realised this whilst listening to the Buddha). 2000 years later, we rely on book translations of suttas which are not adressed to us in particular. It may seem that they are sufficient for clear understanding, but in most cases I believe we need extra assistance from the abhidhamma and commentaries. Just a few thoughts... thanks Kom, Sarah ========= 12554 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] development of concentration Dear Leonardo, It's always good to hear you're still around;-))) Very best wishes, Sarah ======= --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > I really love this group ... > > Thanks ..... > metta, > Leonardo > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nina van Gorkom" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:36 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] development of concentration 12555 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay Dear Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > Help ! > > 1) Does anyone know why the word vinnana is used for a khandha and the > word > citta for paramattha dhamma??? > > 2) And how does "mano" relate to the two ? .......... I'm sure Nina and some of the pali experts will know more. There is some detail in the Atthasalini (PTS p185-7). I can't quote it all but let me give a couple of short quotes: "In the exposition of consciousness (Dhs6), consciousness (citta) is so called because of its variegated (citta) nature. "Mind' (mano) is so called because it knows the measure of an object..." "Vinnana is cognizing. vinnana khandha is consciousness as an aggregate...................... 'Tajjaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu' means the element of mindconsciousness suitable to states such as 'contact' etc. In this expression a single moment of consciousness is called by three names: mano (mind), in the sense of measuring; vinnana (consciousness), in the sense of discrimination; dhatu (element) in the philosophical sense of ultimate reality, or of absence of a living entity....." My own thought is that just as classifications are used to help us understand phenomena from different aspects or angles and thus understand the characteristics more precisely, so different terms are used in these different classifications to again emphasise different functions or natures of the paramattha dhammas. Sorry, I can't explain the Pali etymology but someone else may add more. .......... > > 3) If Vinnanakkhandha / citta arises and falls away and there is > nothing > "stored" anywhere ... does this mean that ALL the potential force of ALL > the kamma by an infinite number of rebirths in ALL realms of samsara > since > beginningless time is picked up by every citta that arises and is passed > on > to the next citta when the first one falls away ??? .......... I think you're getting the idea;-)) Sarah ======================== 12556 From: Michael Newton Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Michael, > > I was just reading your first post when the second > arrived! It is > very early sunday morning here in Brisbane ...... > Thanks for posting > the link. I have read some of Nanavira Theras > writings previously, > and will try to look at the website later today. > (Though I wonder if > he is considered to be a 'mainstream' theravada > (even though a > Bhikkhu? There does seem to be rather a 'silence' > about his > teachings, don't you think?) > > metta, > christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Michael Newton > > wrote: > > > > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in > the > > group; > > I commented on this subject to Robert in a > previous > > email to the group about the suicide of > > the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have > > found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this > > is all tactfully discussed.Here it > > is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so maybe members of > > this group could go to this site and read it.Think > > his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE > DHAMMA > > WITH METTA,MICHAEL > > Hello,Christine; Yes,there is,as you say,a great silence,around the Ven.Nanaviras death.Here in California,I've seen nothing written about this anywhere here, nor do many Buddhists here know anything about this.I'm glad some members of this group are sharing some of their comments,which was just what I was hoping for.Even the Ven.Nanaviras published work"NOTES ON DHAMMA"is out of print.Very few copies available.Wonder if anyone knows about this book and whether this book ever got republished.YOURS IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL 12557 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 10:37am Subject: how arhats experience painful and pleasant feelings RE: [dsg] ADL ch 2. (21-24) The painful bodily feeling is unavoidable for all, but I always wonder about what types of mental feeling arhats experience. From the pali suttas, these are the types of mental feelings that I can infer: 1) pleasant mental feelings: a) from jhana b) delighting in well spoken dhamma c) enjoying seclusion, forests, nature 2) unpleasant mental feelings: a) buddha being impatient with dull people b) buddha being physically tired and asking a disciple to lecture instead b) mahakassapa being annoyed with Ananda I wonder exactly where physical unpleasant feeling begins and where mental unpleasant feeling begins for the enlightened. Or is there NEVER mental unpleasant feeling at all, as the sutta below implies? -fk --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Kom, > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > Larry, > > > > This sutta may be relevant: > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-001.html > > > > In this sutta, the Buddha V. Sariputta > differentiated two > > sort of people: > > 1) People who are afflicted by both the body and > the mind > > 2) People who are afflicted by the body, but not > the mind. > > > > The buddha and the arahat who has not reached > pari-nibbana > > still suffers in the body from the continuing > arising and > > falling away of the 5 kandhas, but because they no > longer > > has updadana to the 5 kandhas, they are not > afflicted in the > > mind. > > Good points and a good sutta. One reason I > particularly like this sutta is > because it's a good example of how --for some people > like Nakulapita-- the > Buddha's words in person were not enough and how > they needed to have the > words explained in more detail by others such as > Sariputta (even though > they may not have realised this whilst listening to > the Buddha). > > 2000 years later, we rely on book translations of > suttas which are not > adressed to us in particular. It may seem that they > are sufficient for > clear understanding, but in most cases I believe we > need extra assistance > from the abhidhamma and commentaries. > > Just a few thoughts... > > thanks Kom, > Sarah > ========= > > > 12558 From: Lucy Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Newton" > Yes,there is,as you say,a great silence,around > the Ven.Nanaviras death.Here in California,I've > seen nothing written about this anywhere here, > nor do many Buddhists here know anything about > this.I'm glad some members of this group are > sharing some of their comments,which was just > what I was hoping for.Even the Ven.Nanaviras > published work"NOTES ON DHAMMA"is out of > print.Very few copies available.Wonder if anyone > knows about this book and whether this book > ever got republished.YOURS IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL Hello Michael "Notes on Dhamma" by Ven. Nanavira, as well as his letters, are available at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/ctp-cont.htm#letters Best wishes Lucy 12559 From: Lucy Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay (I sent this earlier but it didn't show up. Sorry if you receive it twice!) Dear Sarah Thanks. It's starting to look like the Atthasalini would be a very useful book to have. I wasn't really wondering about the Pali but about the function of the different terms - and the passage you quote seems to be answering precisely that question. I can see myself visiting the PTS or Wisdom Books web sites very soon... With respect to etymology, I also wonder if there's a relation between "mano" (mind) and "manas" (conceit) ...the words seem much too similar for it to be a coincidence. Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay > Dear Lucy, > > --- Lucy wrote: > Help ! > > > > 1) Does anyone know why the word vinnana is used for a khandha and the > > word > > citta for paramattha dhamma??? > > > > 2) And how does "mano" relate to the two ? > .......... > I'm sure Nina and some of the pali experts will know more. There is some > detail in the Atthasalini (PTS p185-7). I can't quote it all but let me > give a couple of short quotes: > > "In the exposition of consciousness (Dhs6), consciousness (citta) is so > called because of its variegated (citta) nature. "Mind' (mano) is so > called because it knows the measure of an object..." > > "Vinnana is cognizing. vinnana khandha is consciousness as an > aggregate...................... 'Tajjaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu' means the > element of mindconsciousness suitable to states such as 'contact' etc. In > this expression a single moment of consciousness is called by three names: > mano (mind), in the sense of measuring; vinnana (consciousness), in the > sense of discrimination; dhatu (element) in the philosophical sense of > ultimate reality, or of absence of a living entity....." > > My own thought is that just as classifications are used to help us > understand phenomena from different aspects or angles and thus understand > the characteristics more precisely, so different terms are used in these > different classifications to again emphasise different functions or > natures of the paramattha dhammas. > > Sorry, I can't explain the Pali etymology but someone else may add more. > .......... > > > 3) If Vinnanakkhandha / citta arises and falls away and there is > > nothing > > "stored" anywhere ... does this mean that ALL the potential force of ALL > > the kamma by an infinite number of rebirths in ALL realms of samsara > > since > > beginningless time is picked up by every citta that arises and is passed > > on > > to the next citta when the first one falls away ??? > .......... > > I think you're getting the idea;-)) > > Sarah 12560 From: Lucy Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay Dear Sarah Thanks. It's starting to look like the Atthasalini would be a very useful book to have. I wasn't really wondering about the Pali but about the function of the different terms - and the passage you quote seems to be answering precisely that question. I can see myself visiting the PTS or Wisdom Books web sites very soon... With respect to etymology, I also wonder if there's a relation between "mano" (mind) and "manas" (conceit) ...the words seem much too similar for it to be a coincidence. Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay > Dear Lucy, > > --- Lucy wrote: > Help ! > > > > 1) Does anyone know why the word vinnana is used for a khandha and the > > word > > citta for paramattha dhamma??? > > > > 2) And how does "mano" relate to the two ? > .......... > I'm sure Nina and some of the pali experts will know more. There is some > detail in the Atthasalini (PTS p185-7). I can't quote it all but let me > give a couple of short quotes: > > "In the exposition of consciousness (Dhs6), consciousness (citta) is so > called because of its variegated (citta) nature. "Mind' (mano) is so > called because it knows the measure of an object..." > > "Vinnana is cognizing. vinnana khandha is consciousness as an > aggregate...................... 'Tajjaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu' means the > element of mindconsciousness suitable to states such as 'contact' etc. In > this expression a single moment of consciousness is called by three names: > mano (mind), in the sense of measuring; vinnana (consciousness), in the > sense of discrimination; dhatu (element) in the philosophical sense of > ultimate reality, or of absence of a living entity....." > > My own thought is that just as classifications are used to help us > understand phenomena from different aspects or angles and thus understand > the characteristics more precisely, so different terms are used in these > different classifications to again emphasise different functions or > natures of the paramattha dhammas. > > Sorry, I can't explain the Pali etymology but someone else may add more. > .......... > > > 3) If Vinnanakkhandha / citta arises and falls away and there is > > nothing > > "stored" anywhere ... does this mean that ALL the potential force of ALL > > the kamma by an infinite number of rebirths in ALL realms of samsara > > since > > beginningless time is picked up by every citta that arises and is passed > > on > > to the next citta when the first one falls away ??? > .......... > > I think you're getting the idea;-)) > > Sarah 12561 From: Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) Sarah, thanks for these very interesting answers, particularly the one on water element. It almost sounds like gravity or magnetism. I wonder if the water element is responsible for the elusive 'wholeness'? Regarding sanna, if sanna conceptualizes does that mean that absolutely every citta arises with a conceptual aspect to it? ta, Larry 12562 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 6:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions for Nina --- Dear Azita, Here is a quote you might like: 'As the teacher related this jataka, detailing his own deed in a previous state of existence, his hearers shed floods of tears, and by reason of the softeness of their hearts allowed their ears to droop (were ready to listen I guess). Thus(then) did the exalted one proclaim the truths and preach the law. At the conclusion the Brahman together with his sons and daughters was established in the fruit of conversion (sotapatti).' Dhammapada 23 (3) p205 Burlingame If you have problems with too much list mail the best way is to read it all on the yahoogroups webpage. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., azita gill wrote: > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op > 06-04-2002 00:59 schreef yuzhonghao op > > victoryu@s...: > > > > Dear Nina. IN this post you Quoted > something from Sukin about daily life and I > unfortunately cannot remember it all, however my > queries are: I understand 'one' can do nothing to > hasten the dev. of sati,etc. and I do a reasonable > amount of reading plus reading many of these posts on > dsg. and I think theoretically I understand about nama > and rupa, so why does it make me feel [often] so sad > and teary when I read these - wht I consider - most > profound teachings? I read your 'perfections' and > just the first one on resolution/determination had me > in tears. Now, to me this is very strange - I > expected to perhaps, feel a little calmer, hardly sad > or depressed to read such profundity. It seems > many of the things I really enjoyed doing, don't feel > like much 'fun'anymore? > i I know there are many,many different > moments in all of this , but I do feel I need some > support here; I kind of know what you are going to > say, and yet, well tell me anyway. > q Nina, I appreciate greatly your wonderful > writings and your precious quotes from K. Sujin. > l Metta, Azita. > 12563 From: azita gill Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 7:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions for Nina - to Robert --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Azita, > Here is a quote you might like: > 'As the teacher related this jataka, detailing his > own deed in a > previous state of existence, his hearers shed floods > of tears, and by > reason of the softeness of their hearts allowed > their ears to droop > (were ready to listen I guess). Thus(then) did the > exalted one > proclaim the truths and preach the law. At the > conclusion the Brahman > together with his sons and daughters was established > in the fruit of > conversion (sotapatti).' Dhammapada 23 (3) p205 > Burlingame > > > dear Robert, y thank you, I do like the above, it actually made me smile! tell me tho., do you ever feel sad at times when you realise how amazing these teachings are. A friend, who was a monk in Thailand and Sri Lanka and who knew Ven. Dhammadharo very well, often say to each other how fortunate we are to have met the people we did and heard the Buddha's teachings. Conditions were right at the time ,I guess. > > may conditions always be right, > Azita > > > 12564 From: Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 8:08pm Subject: ADL ch. 3 (12-15) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 3, paragraphs 12 - 15 12. The Buddha taught that everything arises because of conditions; it is not by chance that people are so different in bodily features and characters, and that they live in such different circumstances. Even the difference in bodily features of animals is due to different kamma. Animals have cittas too; they may behave badly or they may behave well. Thus they accumulate different kammas which produce different results. lf we understand that each kamma brings about its own result, we will know that there is no reason to be proud if we are born into a rich family or if we receive praise, honour or other pleasant things. When we have to suffer we will understand that suffering is due to our own deeds. Thus we will be less inclined to blame other people for our unhappiness or to be jealous when others receive pleasant things. When we understand reality we know that it is not self who receiver something pleasant or who has to suffer; it is only vipaka a citta which arises because of conditions and which falls away immediately. 13. We see that people who are born into the same circumstances still behave differently. For example, among people who are born into rich families, some are stingy, others are not. The fact that one is born into a rich family is the result of kamma. Stinginess is conditioned by one's accumulated defilements. There are many different types of conditions which play their parts in the life of each person. Kamma causes one to be born into certain circumstances and one's accumulated tendencies condition one's character. 14. One may have doubts about past lives and future lives, since one only experiences the present life. However, in the present life we notice that different people experience different results. These results must have their causes in the past. The past conditions the present and the deeds we perform now will bring about their results in the future. In understanding the present we will be able to know more about the past and the future. 15.Past, present and future lives are an unbroken series of cittas. Each citta which arises falls away immediately to be succeeded by the next citta. Cittas do not last, but there isn't any moment without citta. If there were moments without citta the body would be a dead body. Even when we are sound asleep there is citta. Each citta which arises falls away but it conditions the next citta and even so the last citta of this life conditions the first citta of the next life, the rebirth- consciousness. Thus we see that life goes on and on. We are moving in a cycle, the cycle of birth and death. 12565 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka Hi Chris, It is nice to read your discussion. And it is nice to see how much preparation you do. Sarah is now reading Mahawansa which I have to confess that I have not read it yet. it is so nice. I am looking forward to meeting you. Sarah: Yes, I live close to colombo. So I can make it for the discussin in Colombo. But unfortunately I cannot make it for your trip to Kandy. Taking leave problem... And chirs, >So - was it a good >thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing.... Chirs, only one action or thought can be performed at a time. Either you saved the being or you broke the spiders nest. If your "chethana" was to save the being then it is a good deed. and so on.... "cheethanahang Bhikkawe Khangmang Vadami" Sarah: I will post one of my photos - as soon as I get one scanned :) Take care ~with meththa ranil 12566 From: manji Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 9:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide With regards to dhamma and the Raja Sutta... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud2-02.html There is depression... there is suffering. Can we discuss the paramattha dhammas of dosa? And how does this relate to renunciation? Does renunciation bring out "dosa", bring it out to work on? How are dosa and renunciation different? metta, manji 12567 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 11:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka Dear Chris, I echoed Ranil explanation about the spider/lizard example: it depends on the cetana when rescuing the lizard. Are we rerscuing the lizard out of kindness, or are we unhappy about how the spider is treating the lizard? Dhamma is infinitely subtle, and we need to know them as they truly are. The following story comes to mind (from memory) that might be related. Just before the Buddha finally ceased, he was travelling with V. Anada toward Kusinara. On the way, he became thirsty and asked V. Ananda to fetch water from a water source nearby. V. Ananda refused up to 3 times for the reason that the water was spoiled because a large herd of animals (cows?) just crossed the water. The Buddha insisted, and when V. Ananda arrived at the water (for the 4th time?), the water was clear. It was explained (somewhere) that in previous life, the Buddha committed a kamma of chasing away his herds (cows?) when they wanted to drink water. He chased the animals away out of good intention: the water was spoiled. However, while chasing the animal aways, he became at times angry (alternating with the good intention). The bad vipaka are results of the akusala dhamma that was conditioned by kusala dhamma. I think this shows you the intricacies of the Dhamma. Without wisdom (direct experience) to realize the dhammas as they truly are, we are truly at loss as regard to the dhammas (and to our own deeds). kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:06 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka > > > Dear Sarah, and All, > > Sarah said: "p.s re bks you're waiting for from > S.L. as mentioned > in > another > post....There may be time to slip into the BPS > bkshop in Kandy when > we're > there and hopefully a chance to visit B.Bodhi." > ---------------------------- > Chris: - you wouldn't joke about the > possibility of meeting > Bhikkhu Bodhi (however slim) would you, Sarah? > It would be so > wonderful, a wish come true.....though I realise > the chance would > only be very slight.....such a highly respected > and very busy man > with lots of people wanting to meet him, and many > other important > calls on his time......as you know, I have a > great admiration for > him and his writings...... :-) > ----------------------------- > Sarah said:"However, I do remember one day in > particular, failing to > keep to the > `rules'. There was a particularly noisy scurry and gulping > sound with > other screeching and hissing sound effects. I > opened one eye just in > time > to see one of your 93 varieties swallow a rat > above just my head;-)" > ------------------------------ > Chris: - Keeping on your good side after the > mention of B.Bodhi, I > won't mention any scepticism about snakes making > a 'gulping' sound. > If you say it did Sarah, then it did! > This brings up a Dhamma focus question > (seriously) - Is there a > Buddhist scripture relating to "not saving" - > this is pertinent for > me, having rescued a small lizard caught up in a > spider web. I'm not > sure if the lizard was grateful, But the spider > was furious...no > dinner, and having to repair his home... So - was > it a good > thing...saving another being? or was it a bad > thing....depriving a > being of sustenance, and damaging his living > area? Should we let > whatever is happening to another being (human or > otherwise) happen? > If we intervene, are we just delaying the fruits of their > kamma?....Or were we meant to save them? > --------------------------------- > Sarah said: "p.s I don't believe we'll be > sleeping on bare > planks in > remote jungles > btw;-)" > --------------------------------- > Chris - A nicely padded plank in the Colombo > Hilton will do.... :-) > > metta > Christine 12568 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 11:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide --- Good topic, Manji. I look forward to the discussion. be robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > With regards to dhamma and the Raja Sutta... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud2-02.html > > There is depression... there is suffering. > > Can we discuss the paramattha dhammas of dosa? And how does this relate > to renunciation? Does renunciation bring out "dosa", bring it out to > work on? > > How are dosa and renunciation different? > > metta, > manji 12569 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions for Nina - to Robert --- Dear Azita, I sometimes feel great emotion when considering the teachings. There is probably some sadness but also it brings extra strength so I feel my life should be given up to the Buddhas of the past and future. I have so much gratitude and good fortune in this life. kind regards robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., azita gill wrote: > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > --- > > Dear Azita, > > Here is a quote you might like: > > 'As the teacher related this jataka, detailing his > > own deed in a > > previous state of existence, his hearers shed floods > > of tears, and by > > reason of the softeness of their hearts allowed > > their ears to droop > > (were ready to listen I guess). Thus(then) did the > > exalted one > > proclaim the truths and preach the law. At the > > conclusion the Brahman > > together with his sons and daughters was established > > in the fruit of > > conversion (sotapatti).' Dhammapada 23 (3) p205 > > Burlingame > > > > > dear Robert, > y thank you, I do like the above, it actually > made me smile! tell me tho., do you ever feel > sad at times when you realise how amazing these > teachings are. A friend, who was a monk in > Thailand and > Sri Lanka and who knew Ven. Dhammadharo very well, > often say to each other how fortunate we are to have > met the people we did and heard the Buddha's > teachings. Conditions were right at the time ,I > guess. > > > may conditions always be right, > > Azita 12570 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] questions for Nina Dear Azita,(and RobertK), Thank you both for sharing your feelings, and how the Dhamma affects you. It is a good thing for me to hear that people are not 'cardboard cutouts', (I know they aren't :-)) and that there is more to us all than 'just thinking'. Azita, first of all, a big cyber-hug. Providing other things in your life are not causing undue suffering, ( just everyday ordinary dukkha :-) ), and your physical health is O.K. (according to your local medico), I wouldn't be too perturbed about feeling teary. Tears come for many reasons. Sometimes from emotional or physical pain, sometimes from spiritual pain, but equally often tears come from recognising Truth and Beauty. Some emotions can't be labelled, and the closest word we have is sadness....but it is not quite sadness, it is a mixture of many things tenderness, yearning, recognition, sadness....... It seems from your email that you feel the tears are related to your spiritual life. A glimpse of an inexpressible or profound truth, triggered by someones words (Nina) or Dhamma, can touch on something you didn't even realise you felt or thought, can cause a feeling so overpowering that one is reduced to tears. At other times, because of a beauty or truth that is only half understood, a feeling can also arise, that you can't quite put your finger on - pointing to a feeling of restlessness or 'lack of something'. This can often be an encouragement to revitalise our spiritual journey, and so is really a good thing. Coming to Buddhism well into adult life after marriage and having a family and divorce, I can still remember the almost incredulous joy, gratitude and relief when I first heard the Teachings...that such a truth could exist...it was like recognising the familiar path to home and safety after a dangerous journey.....but that came after a long arid time of spiritual despair. And brought tears with it. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., azita gill wrote: > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op > 06-04-2002 00:59 schreef yuzhonghao op > > victoryu@s...: > > > > Dear Nina. IN this post you Quoted > something from Sukin about daily life and I > unfortunately cannot remember it all, however my > queries are: I understand 'one' can do nothing to > hasten the dev. of sati,etc. and I do a reasonable > amount of reading plus reading many of these posts on > dsg. and I think theoretically I understand about nama > and rupa, so why does it make me feel [often] so sad > and teary when I read these - wht I consider - most > profound teachings? I read your 'perfections' and > just the first one on resolution/determination had me > in tears. Now, to me this is very strange - I > expected to perhaps, feel a little calmer, hardly sad > or depressed to read such profundity. It seems > many of the things I really enjoyed doing, don't feel > like much 'fun'anymore? > i I know there are many,many different > moments in all of this , but I do feel I need some > support here; I kind of know what you are going to > say, and yet, well tell me anyway. > q Nina, I appreciate greatly your wonderful > writings and your precious quotes from K. Sujin. > l Metta, Azita. > 12571 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, Sukin, Sri Lanka Hi Ranil and Kom, Thanks for your replies. I look forward to meeting you also Ranil. :- ) Thanks for the reminder about 'intention' - it is much more complicated than I thought..... Kom said: "I echoed Ranil's explanation about the spider/lizard example: it depends on the cetana when rescuing the lizard. Are we rescuing the lizard out of kindness, or are we unhappy about how the spider is treating the lizard? Dhamma is infinitely subtle, and we need to know them as they truly are." My first reaction was 'Of course I acted out of kindness' but perhaps I'm fooling myself. This particular lizard is the ordinary household sort - small, inquisitive, soft and shiny with large brown eyes, frightened, and with no weapons to defend itself against the spider. The spider was quite large, unpleasant looking (to me) and never kills its prey 'humanely', quickly, cleanly....and would have been only mildly venomous to me, but lethal (slowly and eventually) to the lizard. I quite like lizards, I don't like spiders. I saw it as the 'innocent' and the 'aggressor'. And yet a spider cannot be anything but a spider. He has to kill to survive. He can't eat flowers. He was being what he had to be. (Life could be quite exhausting with these internal ethical debates in every moment.....). So, is it possible in retrospect to really know exactly what ones intention was at a time in the past? Almost immediately the memory of the intention seems to be righteously 'polluted' or 'improved'. To be aware at the moment things are happening is a goal I hardly ever manage to achieve. . Thanks for the 'cow' story Kom - they really do foul the water. Hint: never go camping down stream from a dairy farm. :-) Kom said: "I think this shows you the intricacies of the Dhamma. Without wisdom (direct experience) to realize the dhammas as they truly are, we are truly at loss as regard to the dhammas (and to our own deeds)." So I begin to see......Something to think about - thanks to you both. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ranil gunawardena" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > It is nice to read your discussion. And it is nice to see how much > preparation you do. Sarah is now reading Mahawansa which I have to confess > that I have not read it yet. it is so nice. I am looking forward to meeting > you. > > Sarah: Yes, I live close to colombo. So I can make it for the discussin in > Colombo. But unfortunately I cannot make it for your trip to Kandy. Taking > leave problem... > > And chirs, > > >So - was it a good > >thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing.... > > Chirs, only one action or thought can be performed at a time. Either you > saved the being or you broke the spiders nest. If your "chethana" was to > save the being then it is a good deed. and so on.... "cheethanahang Bhikkawe > Khangmang Vadami" > > Sarah: I will post one of my photos - as soon as I get one scanned :) > > Take care > ~with meththa > ranil 12572 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Num (& Frank), This may be a somewhat delicate question but it is intended with respect. I’m wondering how you relate what you write from a medical point of view on depression (in the much abbreviated QUOTE1) with what you write from a dhamma point of view at the end (extract in QUOTE 2). ..... Frank, as Num explains so well (in QUOTE 2), unpleasant mental feelings, annoyance and impatience are all associated with dosa-mula cittas and have been completely eradicated by anagamis and arahats. When we read suttas about the Buddha or MahaKassapa which sugget impatience or annoyance, we know it cannot be anything other than wholesome states and NEVER with mental unpleasant feeling therefore. Sarah ====== --- srnsk@a... wrote: QUOTE1 > Well, the causes of depressive disorder are unclear. Genetic, biological > > background and psychosocial issue are always interacted. >. Psycho-social issues always play a big parts in > > initiating and maintaining of depression. Body and mind are always > interacted. > To me when someone attempts suicide, it's a cry for help from the inner > pain, > not a cry for intention. When depression comes, one sees only the > negative > side of the world, see no way out of the situation. It can be serious to > the > point of being obsessive with negative thought, self-depreciation, > delusional > and even fatal-suicidal. > The good news is depression is a treatable disease. There are different > levels of approach of treatment. > > Well, all I want to say is depression is an illness, not a weakness. > Depression as a disease is not the same as the sadness when we left our > families or friends. Depressive disorder is a fatal disease. *********** QUOTE2 > Pain (dukkhadukkha) is also dukkha. It's a painful feeling (dukkha > vedana). > it also has a characteristic of dukkha of tilakkhana. What's about > bodily > pleasant feeling (sukkhavedana). We like it. It's pleasurable, no pain > here > but even the pleasant feeling is still also has a characteristic of > dukkha as > well. > > Sorrow, lamentation, mental pain, despair, association with the dislike, > > separation from the liked, not getting what one wants, these are mental > suffering, occurs only in citta rooted in anger, dosa-mula-citta. > > The Buddha and the arahat are still subjected to bodily pain (vipaka) > but > they completely eradicate the mental suffering. All khandhas which > formed > into beings, animals, human or the Buddha in conventional sense are > still > have dukkha-lakkhana or sankara-dukkha. > > Upadanakhandha (translated as khandhas as the objects of attachments), > all > khandhas has potential to be a subject of attachment. Without wisdom > (panna), tilakkhanas cannot be vividly appreciated. We do not see the > reality > of khandhas, we grasp them as something permanent. > > Lobha can attach to any khandhas.> ********** 12573 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) mano / citta / vinnana & kamma relay Dear Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > > Thanks. It's starting to look like the Atthasalini would be a very > useful > book to have. Yes, very useful and easy to read (relatively speaking;-)) If you join the PTS you get a discount on book orders and a free book once a year. >I wasn't really wondering about the Pali but about the > function of the different terms - and the passage you quote seems to be > answering precisely that question. I'm glad to hear it. Others may add more detail. >I can see myself visiting the PTS or > Wisdom Books web sites very soon... > > With respect to etymology, I also wonder if there's a relation between > "mano" (mind) and "manas" (conceit) ...the words seem much too similar > for > it to be a coincidence. 'Mano' (mind) "is minding, that is, it discerns (cognizes)" (Atth) Orig. from 'ma~n~nati' 'Maana' (conceit, has a long vowel sound) Orig. from 'man' (short vowel sound;-)) referring to high opinions, hence pride. I just checked more on the etymology in my lge pali dict but it's far too complicated for me. As Nina would say, it's all beyond my limit;-) Sarah ===== 12574 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - … > > However, knowledge about these conditioning relationships is certainly an > > essential > > aspect of the development of insight. It's just that it comes as a > > corollary to the > > development of insight into the characteristic of dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > How does it follow? By deduction, by inference? I kind of doubt that. > I think that arriving at the *notions* of inter-dhammic relations, and, most > specifically, the *notion* of dependent arising, is via inference, but it is > inference from the direct seeing of relations and instances of > conditionality. > It has been my understanding that, for the most part, Abhidhamma is > intended to be a detailed codification of what is to be known directly, with > insight/wisdom. And included in Abhidhamma is paticcasamupada and the > analysis of relations (in the Patthana). So I would expect that > conditionality can be seen directly, with wisdom. The direct apprehension, > with wisdom, of the dependent arising of conditioned dhammas is the means of > directly seeing their impermanence, impersonality, and insubstantiality, > leading to a turning away from them, a distaste and loss of desire for them, > and, finally, a stepping out to the unconditioned. > -------------------------------------------------------- More useful points to discuss here, Howard! 1. The Abhidhamma as a detailed codification of what is to be known. The Abhidhamma is a codification of all phenomena that constitute samsara and nibbana, and of anything about those phenomena that is of relevance to the attainment of enlightenment. But that is not to say that everything in the Abhidhamma needs to be known. Enlightenment is attained when dhammas are known to the extent that their characteristics are penetrated and their true nature is seen. 2. Conditionality as a general aspect of dhammas vs. paticca-samuppada. As I see it, there is a clear difference between *seeing the conditioned nature of dhammas* and a *detailed knowledge of various cnditioning factors at play at diferenct moments*. The former is required for enlightenment, the latter is the realm of great minds like the Buddha's. Understanding conditionality as being the general nature of things does not imply a knowledge of the number and kind of conditioning factors that may pertain at a given moment, although of course a degree of knowledge about different kinds of conditioning factors is necessary. If I am not mistaken, the paticca-samuppada is one of the aspects of the dhamma that was contemplated by the Buddha in the weeks following his enlightenment (i.e., rather than being something the realisation of which contributed to his enlightenment). 3. The 3 characteristics and the conditioned nature of dhammas. There is no doubt a close connection here, but I think that knowledge of these things is developed by directly experiencing and understanding dhammas themselves as they truly are, and not by 'studying' paticca-samuppada or the 3 characteristics. In the development of satipatthana and the Noble Eightfold Path, it is dhammas that are the object of insight. The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not generally reckoned as including knowledge of paticca-samuppada as such, as far as I am aware. At least, that's the way I understand it. ;-)) Jon 12575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] stimulating talk, to Azita op 09-04-2002 01:37 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > Dear Nina. IN this post you Quoted > something from Sukin about daily life and I > unfortunately cannot remember it all, however my > queries are: I understand 'one' can do nothing to > hasten the dev. of sati,etc. and I do a reasonable > amount of reading plus reading many of these posts on > dsg. and I think theoretically I understand about nama > and rupa, so why does it make me feel [often] so sad > and teary when I read these - wht I consider - most > profound teachings? I read your 'perfections' and > just the first one on resolution/determination had me > in tears. Now, to me this is very strange - I > expected to perhaps, feel a little calmer, hardly sad > or depressed to read such profundity. It seems > many of the things I really enjoyed doing, don't feel > like much 'fun'anymore? > i I know there are many,many different > moments in all of this , but I do feel I need some > support here; I kind of know what you are going to > say, and yet, well tell me anyway. > Nina, I appreciate greatly your wonderful > writings and your precious quotes from K. Sujin. > l Dear Azita, we all need stimulating talk at times. In the Co. to the satipatthana sutta, translated by Ven. Soma, we read about conditions for the enlightenment factors, and we read under the enlightenment factor of concentration about the gladdening of the mind: These reflecions can instill a sense of urgency. I now quote again Sukin¹s post. Sukin makes me laugh, because he says that he is very sleepy, distracted by someone else, etc. but meanwhile he says very good things. End quote. I like to highlight again: and also: I hope Sukin will write more often, even when half asleep. Sukin develops the perfections, because, while he is helping others, he does not expect anything for himself. He helps in many ways behind the screens, but does not speak about this. It was Sukin who started the thread on courage and cheerfulness of Dhamma and this was a condition for me to ask A. Sujin about this, and therefore, when we were in India, she spoke each day about cheerfulness of Dhamma and courage. I quote from my India impressions: I am glad you appreciate Khun Sujin¹s reminders and are reading the Perfections. You were reading about the long way and that our life consists of beginning again and again. I quote: Lodewijk said to A. Sujin that he becomes so downhearted when he hears the Dhamma, he seems to be so far off from the goal. A. Sujin answered that this shows progress. I know why: knowing the goal and our shortcomings is better than not knowing at all. We are born as a human and have the opportunity to hear Dhamma, and we should be grateful. You wrote to Larry before: we want result now, and explained very clearly why this is of no use. But of course there can be conditions for being downhearted. I hope you do not become more downhearted by more stimulating talk, also that is possible, by conditions. This morning I heard on tape: With metta, Nina. 12576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL , how to make corrections op 09-04-2002 04:27 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 3, paragraphs 7 - 11 Dear Larry, I appreciate the trouble you took. I did not quite understand how to go about corrections of spelling. To whom should they be mentioned? The mistakes will not hinder people too much and I am not very keen to go over them. The scanner makes such mistakes. But if it is useful I shall mention them. I can mention some typos here: §8: ears, conditions. § 9: dots missing, a self who (not which, but this is my own correction),§ 10: one feels, § 11: rest should be result, spiritual, men live , as by its. I highlighted them by making spaces around the word, is this a good idea? Nina. Medium defilement is, for > example, attachment to what one sees, or ears or experiences through the > body-sense, or aversion towards the objects one experiences. Medium > defilement does not condition ill deeds. Gross defilement conditons > > 9. Different accumulations of kamma are the condition for different > results in life. This is the law of kamma and vipaka, of cause and > result. We see that people are born into different circumstances. Some > people live in agreeable surroundings and they have many pleasant > experiences in their lives. Other people may often have disagreeable > experiences; they are poor or they suffer from ill health. When we hear > about children who suffer from malnutrition, we wonder why they have to > suffer while other children receive everything they need. The Buddha > taught that everyone receives the result of his own deeds. A deed or > kamma of the past can bring its result later on, because akusala kamma > and kusala kamma are accumulated. When there are the right conditions > the result can be brought about in the form of vipaka. When the word > 'result' is used, people may think of the consequences of their deeds > for other people, but 'result' in the sense of vipaka has a different > meaning. Vipakacitta is a citta which experiences something unpleasant > or something pleasant and this citta is the result of a deed we did > ourselves. We are used to thinking of a self which experiences > unpleasant > and pleasant things. However, there is no self; there are only cittas > which experience different objects. Some cittas are cause; they can > motivate good deeds or bad deeds which are capable of bringing about > their appropriate results. Some cittas are result or vipaka. When we see > something unpleasant, it is not self which sees; it is a citta, > seeing-consciousness, which is the result of an unwholesome deed > (akusala kamma) we performed either in this life or in a past life. This > kind of citta is akusala vipaka. When we see something pleasant, it is a > citta which is kusala vipaka the result of a wholesome deed we > performed. Every time we experience an unpleasant . object through one of > the five senses, there is akusala vipaka Every time we experience a > pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka. > > 10. lf one is being hit by someone else, the pain one feel is not the > vipaka (result) of the deed performed by the other person. The person > who is being hit receives the result of a bad deed he performed himself; > for him there is akusala vipaka through the body-sense. The other > person's action is only the proximate cause of his pain. As regards the > other person who performs the bad deed, it is his akusala citta which > motivates that deed. Sooner or later he will receive the result of his > own bad deed. When we have more understanding of kamma and vipaka we > will see many events of our life more clearly. > > 11. The 'Atthasalini' (Book I, Analysis of Terms, Part II, 65) explains > that kamma of different people causes different results at birth and all > through life. Even bodily features are the rest of kamma. We read: > > ...ln dependence on the difference in kamma appears the difference in > the destiny of beings without legs with two legs, four legs, many legs, > vegetative, spiritual . with perception, without perception, with neither > perception nor without perception. Depending on the difference in kamma > appears the difference in the births of beings, high and low, base and > exalted, happy and miserable. Depending on the difference in kamma > appears the difference in the individual features of beings as beautiful > or ugly, high-born or low-born, well-built or deformed. Depending on the > difference in kamma appears the difference in the worldly conditions of > beings > as gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, happiness and > misery. > > Further on we read: > > By kamma the world moves, by kamma men Live, and by kamma are all beings > bound As by its pin the rolling chariot wheel. 12577 From: Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide <<>> Dear Sarah; Hmm, you always come up with excellent questions. This is a very hard one. I ask myself the same thing. And the best answer, I can come with is, I don't know :-). A whole lot more to investigate and find out. Conditional relations are something really intricate. Well, I like the stanza that Ven.Assaji gave to Ven.Sariputta when he was still a wanderer "Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation." When there are appropriate conditions, phenomena arise. And with conditions they cease. I like jataka stories a lot. In the past, when I read about some stories, I think how can a good guy commit such a terrible thing. I was kind of bold, this will not happen to me, who will do such a silly thing. Now, I have studied and discussed more with all my kalayanamitras and sappurisas. My view completely turned up side down. With appropriate conditions kusala and akusala citta arise. I do not know all the conditions. The Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is very broad. My understanding is as long as wisdom (panna) is not perfected to the level of anagami, dosa cetasika still has not been completely eradicated. Anusaya is so dormant. Jataka is an extremely good reminder that it is still a long way to go. Discussing about dosa, you remind me of the Akkosa sutta, when a guest comes to our houses, we give him food and drink, then if the guest does not take any snacks. It all belongs back to the house owners. Dosa is very unwholesome; its effect also turns inwardly to the owner. Akkosa Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn07-002.html There is a big gap between the quote #1 and #2. For me, if it were not beyond my limit, I would really love to find it out. Again you remind me of Malunkayaputta sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html If a poison-arrow is right in my chest, I think it's better to let the surgeon pull it out right away (I also prefer to put under sleep during the procedure. I am mellow ;-)) than to wait to find out who made the arrow or what direction it shot from. (Actually, I am pretty curious and like to know that, but I should better be smart.) Appreciated that you brought this up. Sorry, no clear answer. There are a lot more that I do not know and understand. Enchanter :-) Num 12578 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 2:51pm Subject: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Hi Manji, I am not clear on the point you are making in the first part of your post......The Raja sutta refers to not engaging in frivolous talk, and only engaging in Dhamma-talk or else keeping noble silence......do you perhaps feel there has been inappropriate or frivolous discussion on dsg? I meant to thank you for your post on anatta/kenosis in Christianity. You certainly have a breadth of knowledge of spiritual traditions, both Buddhist and non-Buddhist. I would be very interested to hear your understanding of the paramattha dhamma of dosa, and how it relates to or is different from renunciation. My understanding is limited to little more than the dictionary definitions (added below), and I don't recall coming across the term 'nekkhamma' before. So I will be looking forward to reading your posts on this topic. ["nekkhamma: 'freedom from sensual lust', renunciation. Though apparently from nir + Ö kram, 'to go forth (into the homeless state of a monk)', this term is in the Páli texts nevertheless used as if it were derived from káma, lust, and always as an antonym to káma. It is one of the perfections (s. páramí). N. sankappa, thought free from lust, or thought of renunciation, is one of the 3 kinds of right thought (sammá-sankappa), the 2nd link of the Noble Eightfold Path (s. magga, 2), its antonym being kámasankappa, lustful thought. dosa: 'hatred', anger, is one of the 3 unwholesome, roots (múla, q.v.). - d. citta: hate consciousness; s. Tab. I (30, 31). dosa-mula-citta: citta(consciousness) rooted in aversion paramattha dhamma: truth in the absolute sense: mental and physical phenomena, each with their own characteristic."] metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > With regards to dhamma and the Raja Sutta... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud2-02.html > > There is depression... there is suffering. > > Can we discuss the paramattha dhammas of dosa? And how does this relate > to renunciation? Does renunciation bring out "dosa", bring it out to > work on? > > How are dosa and renunciation different? > > metta, > manji 12579 From: Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL , how to make corrections Dear Nina, I don't exactly know what to do about making corrections either. Maybe it's not necessary to do anything. If you think it would be worth while, simply noting the corrections in a response to a posting would at least enter them in the archives. Then if someone wanted to make a corrected version, they could. Or not. Little typos don't bother me at all. Larry btw, thank you very much for letting us use this precious teaching. I'm learning more than I can really express. L. 12580 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > If I am not mistaken, the paticca-samuppada is one of the aspects of the dhamma > that was contemplated by the Buddha in the weeks following his enlightenment > (i.e., rather than being something the realisation of which contributed to his > enlightenment). > >==========hk Dear Jon, Just a minor point. : On the eve just before full enlightenment in the first watch the Buddha (to be) based on anapanasati realised pubbenivasanussati-abhinna, (knowledge of lives), in the middle watch, dibbacakkhu abhinna, (special vision) and finally he insighted paticcasamuppada . This final stage of seeing into paticcasamuppada happened just before dawn and upon its completion he became Buddha. In later weeks,in the vicinity of the Bodhi tree , he contempated in detail the Patthana , the 24 conditions. This area is marked by a marble plaque which you have probably seen at the site in Bodhgaya. best wishes robert 12581 From: Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:50pm Subject: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 3, paragraphs 16 - 18 16. The next citta cannot arise until the previous citta has passed away. There can be only one citta at a time, but cittas arise and fall away so rapidly that one has the impression that there can be more than one citta at a time. We may think that we can see and hear at the same time, but in reality each of these cittas arises at a different moment. We can verify through our own experience that seeing is a type of citta which is different from hearing; these cittas arise because of different conditions and experience different objects. 17. A citta is that which experiences something; it experiences an object. Each citta must experience an object, there cannot be any citta without on object. Cittas experience different objects through the six doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. Seeing is a citta experiencing that which appears through the eyes. We can use the word 'visible object' for the object which is seen but it is not necessary to name it 'visible object'. When visible object contacts the eye-sense there are conditions for seeing. Seeing is different from thinking about what we see ; the latter is a type of citta which experiences something through the mind-door. Hearing is a citta which is different from seeing; it has different conditions and it experiences a different object. When sound contacts the ear-sense, there are conditions for a citta which experiences sound. There have to be the right conditions for the arising of each citta. We cannot smell through the ears and taste with the eyes. A citta which smells experiences odour through the nose. A citta which tastes experiences flavour through the tongue. A citta which experiences a bodily impression experiences this through the body-sense. Through the mind-door citta can experience all kinds of objects. There can be only one citta at a time and citta can experience only one object at a time. 18. We may understand in theory that a citta which sees has a characteristic which is different from a citta which hears, and that citta is different from a physical phenomenon which does not experience anything. Knowing this may seem quite simple to us, but theoretical knowledge is different from knowing the truth by one's own experience. Theoretical knowledge is not very deep; it cannot eradicate the concept of self. Only in being aware of phenomena as they appear through the six doors, will we know the truth by our own experience. This kind of understanding can eradicate the concept of self. 12582 From: Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear dsg, I'm still not undersanding how citta works. When dosa arises is dosa an object of mind consciousness? Both dosa and mind consciousness are cittas. What object does dosa experience? Do dosa and mind consciousness arise at the same time? thanks, Larry 12583 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 8:12pm Subject: Dependent Origination Dear All, After becoming interested in Paticcasamuppada from RobK's series of posts (hopefully more to come), and hearing a little about the three rounds in the 'anatta and kamma' thread, I decided to study B.Bodhi's "Great Discourse on Causation - Mahanidana Sutta". The best laid plans....... there is quite a long wait after ordering the book. So, I'm reading from the Net on Dependent Origination (writings of Ven. Payutto), while awaiting delivery. The approach he takes is, that though acknowledging this reality applies to all things from the natural environment, which is an external physical condition, to the events of human society, ethical principles, life events, and the happiness and suffering which manifest in our own minds - that this system of causal relationship needs to be understood first on the inner level before we are in a position to see the connections between these inner factors and the causal relationships in society and the natural environment - which is probably the orthodox position? Which means it is not just me, mind and matter, but the whole world, the whole universe and everything living (or not) that it encompasses, that is subject to D.O..... This broadens the whole perspective - and shows it to be so much more of a intricate teaching. I am really grateful for Ananda when he speaks of D.O. On first looking at Dependent Origination, though having heard of its difficulty, I thought (like Ananda), well that's fairly clear, doesn't seem so hard to understand..... - as Ananda said, it "appears to me to be so simple!" :-) "When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. (S.II.28,65) The response by the Buddha certainly focuses the attention; He rarely corrects Ananda (perhaps only over Admirable Friends, as well): "Say not so, Ananda, say not so. This principle of Dependent Origination is a profound teaching, hard to see. It is through not knowing, not understanding and not thoroughly realizing this teaching that beings are confused lika tangled thread, thrown together like bundles of threads, caught as in a net, and cannot escape hell, the nether worlds and the wheel of samsara." (S.II.92) And, as well, "Whoever sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination. (M.I. 191) So, not so simple, and vitally important to understand. metta, Christine 12584 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL , how to make corrections Dear Nina & Larry. I rec'd a note from Binh in which he asked me to mention to you: B:> - I'm more than happy to correct those errors in the version I stored > at the BuddhaSasana website. Please send me a comprehensive list so > that I can do the correction at once (as soon as I have time). My own suggestion: Maybe Nina (or anyone else), you can just keep a note of the typos or scan errors and at the end of the book or in intervals send them to Binh. As small errors don't bother any of us, I'd suggest that maybe you can just collect them off-list or follow Larry's suggestions. Binh's add is: "Binh Anson" Sarah ====== --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Nina, I don't exactly know what to do about making corrections > either. Maybe it's not necessary to do anything. If you think it would > be worth while, simply noting the corrections in a response to a posting > would at least enter them in the archives. Then if someone wanted to > make a corrected version, they could. Or not. Little typos don't bother > me at all. 12585 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka corner2 Dear All. Last time I wrote: > So Mahinda, four other theras, Sumana (Samghamitta’s son, “the > miraculously gifted samanera Sumana mighty in the six supernatural > powers”) and “lay-disciple Bhanduka (an anagami and cousin of Mahinda), > “rose up in the air” and left for Sri Lanka. ********** King Devanampiyatissa (of Lanka) was on a hunt with forty thousand men. Mahinda thought that if he saw too many monks he’d be afraid and so he let the king see him alone until the king had put his bow and arrow aside. Then Mahinda caused his companions to become visible. Mahinda explained how they’d come from India as disciples of the Buddha out of compassion. The king asked if there were other monks in India like the ones just made visible and Mahinda replied: ..... “Jambudipa is gleaming with yellow robes; and great is the number there of arahants learned in the three vedas, gifted with miraculous powers, skilled in reading the thoughts of others, possessing the heavenly ear: the disciples of the Buddha”. The king asked how they had arrived and was told: “ ‘Neither by land nor by water are we come’, he understood that they had come through the air.” ..... Mahinda then taught the Culahatthipadupama sutta and by the end, the king and his forty thousand men “came unto the (three) refuges”.(became sotapannas??) Later the monks rose again by air and arrived in Anuradhapura. The first cetiya was later built on the spot.We then start to read how many men and devas listened to various suttas and became enlightened. When the queen visited with 500 women, Mahinda taught the Petavatthu and Vimanavatthu and they all became sotapannas and soon after sakadagamis. Another thousand women became enlightened when he taught the Balapandita sutta.The queen and these women wished to ordain but Mahinda explained he couldn’t help. So it was arranged for his sister Samghamitta to plan to come to Sri Lanka with other female arahants and to bring a branch of the Bodhi tree. She would “confer the pabbajja upon these women”. Meanwhile the king established a vihara and gave the Mahamegha park (in Anuradhapura) to the Sangha. The first of many earth quakes took place “because the doctrine is founded in the island”.The spot where the Bodhi tree branch is later planted is said to be the spot where it was planted in the ages of the 3 previous Buddhas as well. Boundaries were established for the sites and holy places and by the end of seven days, 8500 people had become enlightened. Buildings and bathing tanks were established and we’ll be visiting the ruins of many of these in June. (I know many of the holy sites are now guarded after recent fighting near Anuradhapura.) The king planned to build a stupa and Mahinda suggested they obtain some of the Buddha’s relics. Sumana is sent to Sakka, king of the gods to ask for the relics of the tooth and right collar bone already intended for Lanka it seems. Various extraordinary miracles take place after the relics arrive, illuminating the whole of Lanka. At one point the collar bone relic rises in the air to a height of ‘seven talas’ and ‘it wrought the miracle of the double appearances” (yamaka.m paat.tihaariya.m). this is the miracle performed by the Buddha to refute heretical teachers and consists of the appearance of opposite phenomena in pairs such as the streaming forth of fire and water. We read further that as the collar-bone was “laid in the cetiya a wondrous great earthquake came to pass, causing a thrill (of awe). Thus are the Buddhas incmprehensible, and incomprehensible is the nature of the Buddhas, and incomprehensible is the reward of those who have faith in the incomprehensible”. By now there were thirty thousand bhikkhus and next time I’ll continue with the arrival of Samghamitta and the Bodhi tree. ********** Much of this sounds like something out of 'Harry Potter' I know. I believe that when I started to read the Mahavamsa before (over 20yrs ago), I couldn’t accept the various powers and miracles or at least these seemed to be a kind of blind faith. With greater confidence now in the Teachings and in the power of very refined wholesome mental states, it no longer seems unbelievable but more a condition for great gratitude when I read about them. Like Azita, Chris and Rob K have shared, I often feel quite overcome and teary when I read of the compassion,wisdom and confidence of early arahants, such as those at the 3 Councils or Mahinda in this account. Usually, the tears show when there is a lack of equanimity and some clinging to self and momentary dosa in between the appreciation, gratitude and reflections on wholesome states. This is why, for me, these times can be quite unsettling. Sometimes I’ll be reading a particularly meaningful post or quote to Jon and have to stop because I’ve become too emotional;-) ..... Whatever the reaction - boredom, tears, disbelief, humour or gratitude, I hope there is something of interest and of course the reaction is conditioned just as it is at this moment and can be the object of awareness. As we read in the quote from K.Sujin, “when the nama or rupa which appears is seen as only a reality, there is a lessening of the clinging to self....”. metta, Sarah ====================================================== 12586 From: sukinderpal Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:03am Subject: Re: stimulating talk, to Azita Dear Nina, > I hope Sukin will write more often, even when half asleep. Thankyou for your encouragement, I hope I do not get too carried away. But I will write something even if I wish that I could quote the Tpitaka rather than use my own experiences to express my limited understanding. By quoting the Tipitaka, I would at least be stating a truth that is never misleading. Ofcourse members of this group are all very well informed and there is no danger that they will be mislead by me. But I want to say here how I feel the importance of simple staightforward expressions such as those of your own writings are. They are clearly without lobha and dosa. You feel no need to choose words which will create the best affect. I used to be impressed and get carried away by writings of western meditation teachers and Mahayana teachings, but gradually realized how much there was an attempt to dramatize. But the biggest danger as I later understood was the wrong view expressed. They all seem to feel a need to do something directly or implied, about their accumulated kilesas. They do not realize that it is the lobha and dosa *now* which they are in ignorance of and are instead attached to a memory of dhamma which was conditioned to arise and has already fallen away. Thinking that some dhamma is a hinderance to understanding would condition a turning away from that dhamma when it arises in daily life and hence an impossibility of understanding it. Related to this I want to mention how effective right view, even if it is only on the intellectual level is. Knowing for eg. that cittas arise only to fall in a split second and that no feeling of sadness or gladness really lasts, has encouraged me to realize that study of realities can be done regardless of where and in what state of mind one is in. I used to think that feelings will last, and that a particular time and situation is not suitable for the study of dhamma. Now I know that this view is not true. But I also understand that wrong view has been much accumulated and when the conditions are present I can surely fall back into believing the Mahayanist position or even believing in a creator god. Knowing this, the one wish I have in this life, is that I continue to associate with superior persons such as you, K. Sujin and other members of this list till the end of this life. I feel very fortunate to be here. I will not bore you with this over use of 'I' even if it is still the 'I' that thinks this way:-). Please convey my regards to Lodewijk. Best wishes, Sukin. ] 12587 From: Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/10/02 9:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > … > > > However, knowledge about these conditioning relationships is certainly > an > > > essential > > > aspect of the development of insight. It's just that it comes as a > > > corollary to the > > > development of insight into the characteristic of dhammas. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > How does it follow? By deduction, by inference? I kind of doubt > that. > > I think that arriving at the *notions* of inter-dhammic relations, and, > most > > specifically, the *notion* of dependent arising, is via inference, but it > is > > inference from the direct seeing of relations and instances of > > conditionality. > > It has been my understanding that, for the most part, Abhidhamma > is > > intended to be a detailed codification of what is to be known directly, > with > > insight/wisdom. And included in Abhidhamma is paticcasamupada and the > > analysis of relations (in the Patthana). So I would expect that > > conditionality can be seen directly, with wisdom. The direct > apprehension, > > with wisdom, of the dependent arising of conditioned dhammas is the means > of > > directly seeing their impermanence, impersonality, and insubstantiality, > > leading to a turning away from them, a distaste and loss of desire for > them, > > and, finally, a stepping out to the unconditioned. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > More useful points to discuss here, Howard! > > 1. The Abhidhamma as a detailed codification of what is to be known. > The Abhidhamma is a codification of all phenomena that constitute samsara > and > nibbana, and of anything about those phenomena that is of relevance to the > attainment of enlightenment. But that is not to say that everything in the > Abhidhamma needs to be known. Enlightenment is attained when dhammas are > known > to the extent that their characteristics are penetrated and their true > nature > is seen. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Their true nature is relational, wherin lies their emptiness, their being anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > 2. Conditionality as a general aspect of dhammas vs. paticca-samuppada. > As I see it, there is a clear difference between *seeing the conditioned > nature > of dhammas* and a *detailed knowledge of various cnditioning factors at > play at > diferenct moments*. The former is required for enlightenment, the latter > is > the realm of great minds like the Buddha's. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with that. But the conditionality, to be truly known, must be known directly, not just inferentially. Paticcasamupada, as traditionally presented, begins with the general statement of conditionality, and then specializes it to the conditionlity leading to the arising of unsatisfactoriness. -------------------------------------------------- > Understanding conditionality as being the general nature of things does not > imply a knowledge of the number and kind of conditioning factors that may > pertain at a given moment, although of course a degree of knowledge about > different kinds of conditioning factors is necessary. > If I am not mistaken, the paticca-samuppada is one of the aspects of the > dhamma > that was contemplated by the Buddha in the weeks following his > enlightenment > (i.e., rather than being something the realisation of which contributed to > his > enlightenment). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That may not be so. I believe Robert commented on this. ------------------------------------------------------- > > 3. The 3 characteristics and the conditioned nature of dhammas. > There is no doubt a close connection here, but I think that knowledge of > these > things is developed by directly experiencing and understanding dhammas > themselves as they truly are, and not by 'studying' paticca-samuppada or > the 3 > characteristics. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This suggests that dhammas are static, separate things that are individually directly observable, that there do somehow exist relations among these separate things, but that the relations are only inferable by using reason to compare the separate things, and not directly observable with wisdom. This reminds me of the old billiard ball physics that used to be in vogue, but I don't think it adequately expresses the Dhammic view of dhammas, which seems to me to be more like that of things-in-relation, with the relations at least as important as the "things" related. To truly see that conditioned dhammas are dependently arisen, that seeing must be a direct seeing, with wisdom, and not just an inference made on the basis of comparisons of separate objects, or so it seems to me. -------------------------------------------------------------- > In the development of satipatthana and the Noble Eightfold Path, it is > dhammas > that are the object of insight. The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path > are > not generally reckoned as including knowledge of paticca-samuppada as such, > as > far as I am aware. > > At least, that's the way I understand it. ;-)) > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12588 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Larry, I probably repeat some of the things that you may know already... 1) Citta is a nama: nama cognizes an object. Rupa doesn't cognize. 2) Although cetasikas are also nama, but citta is the chief in cognizing its object. The visesa lakkhana of citta is cognition, whereas cetasikas' visesa lakkhanas vary. Although there are 89 classifications of citta, its visesa lakkhana are alike: cognizing objects. The example of cetasikas is like when you see the difference between red and blue, the difference between the two must be cognized between the cittas. 3) Citta rises together with its conascent cetasikas, falls aways together with its conascent cetasikas, and cognizes the same object as the conascent cetasikas. Furthermore, in the world where conditioned nama must arise depending on a rupa, citta and cetasikas must rise at the same rupa. 4) When dosa arises, it is conascent with its citta (dosa-mula citta) with all the properties as in 3. Dosa is a cetasika, not a citta. Dosa conditions other conascent citta and cetasikas. Although the visesa lakkhana of the citta is cognition, the cognition varies in a citta without dosa and another citta with dosa. 5) A conditioned nama doesn't cognize itself or its conascent states. When a citta and cetasikas cognizes dosa, for example, they cognize dosa that has fallen away (past), not the dosa that is present. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:59 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) > > > Dear dsg, > > I'm still not undersanding how citta works. When > dosa arises is dosa an > object of mind consciousness? Both dosa and mind > consciousness are > cittas. What object does dosa experience? Do dosa > and mind consciousness > arise at the same time? > > thanks, Larry > > 12589 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:10am Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Christine, I am not sure if somebody has mentioned this resource on nekkhama: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.h tm#Chapter%204 Nekkhama is not just leaving the household life into the homeless life. TA. Sujin mentioned that in daily life, it means when you have enough of something. Do we stop eating when we are full, and not continue just for the taste? Do we stop shopping if we have enough of what we need (clothing, etc.)? Do we see the faults of akusala (especially lobha) and the benefits of kusala? Leading by panna (knowing that nekkhama eventually leads to englightenment, etc.), nekhama is one of the 10 perfection that must be develop in order for us to cross the flood. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:51 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: > choice and suicide > > > Hi Manji, > > I am not clear on the point you are making in the > first part of your > post......The Raja sutta refers to not engaging > in frivolous talk, > and only engaging in Dhamma-talk or else keeping noble > silence......do you perhaps feel there has been > inappropriate or > frivolous discussion on dsg? > I meant to thank you for your post on anatta/kenosis in > Christianity. You certainly have a breadth of > knowledge of spiritual > traditions, both Buddhist and non-Buddhist. > > I would be very interested to hear your > understanding of the > paramattha dhamma of dosa, and how it relates to > or is different from > renunciation. My understanding is limited to > little more than the > dictionary definitions (added below), and I don't > recall coming > across the term 'nekkhamma' before. So I will be > looking forward to > reading your posts on this topic. > > ["nekkhamma: 'freedom from sensual lust', > renunciation. Though > apparently from nir + Ö kram, 'to go forth (into > the homeless > state > of a monk)', this term is in the Páli texts > nevertheless used as > if > it were derived from káma, lust, and always as an > antonym to > káma. It > is one of the perfections (s. páramí). N. > sankappa, thought > free from > lust, or thought of renunciation, is one of the 3 > kinds of right > thought (sammá-sankappa), the 2nd link of the > Noble Eightfold Path > (s. magga, 2), its antonym being kámasankappa, > lustful thought. > > dosa: 'hatred', anger, is one of the 3 > unwholesome, roots (múla, > q.v.). - d. citta: hate consciousness; s. Tab. I (30, 31). > > dosa-mula-citta: citta(consciousness) rooted in aversion > > paramattha dhamma: truth in the absolute sense: > mental and physical > phenomena, each with their own characteristic."] > > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > > With regards to dhamma and the Raja Sutta... > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udan a/ud2-02.html > > There is depression... there is suffering. > > Can we discuss the paramattha dhammas of dosa? And how does this relate > to renunciation? Does renunciation bring out "dosa", bring it out to > work on? > > How are dosa and renunciation different? > > metta, > manji 12590 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 1:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka corner2 Enjoyed the post and look forward to more. I'm quite comfortable with the psychic powers, even in this day forms of healing, forms of telepathy and predictions of the future are not rare among ordinary people..... but the 'numbers' mentioned in Buddhist stories and histories always give me pause. Hunting with forty thousand men? No doubt they weren't all on foot either...... One would wonder if whatever it was they were hunting had no sense of smell and was deaf and blind as well.....and even then, as long as it was alive, it would have been able to feel the pounding vibrations of all those moving men and animals on the earth.... Thank you for reminding and clarifying from an abhidhamma point of view just what is happening with tears and other reactions. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear All. > > Last time I wrote: > > > So Mahinda, four other theras, Sumana (Samghamitta's son, "the > > miraculously gifted samanera Sumana mighty in the six supernatural > > powers") and "lay-disciple Bhanduka (an anagami and cousin of Mahinda), > > "rose up in the air" and left for Sri Lanka. > ********** > King Devanampiyatissa (of Lanka) was on a hunt with forty thousand men. > ********** > > Much of this sounds like something out of 'Harry Potter' I know. I believe > that when I started to read the Mahavamsa before (over 20yrs ago), I > couldn't accept the various powers and miracles or at least these seemed > to be a kind of blind faith. With greater confidence now in the Teachings > and in the power of very refined wholesome mental states, it no longer > seems unbelievable but more a condition for great gratitude when I read > about them. > > Like Azita, Chris and Rob K have shared, I often feel quite overcome and > teary when I read of the compassion,wisdom and confidence of early > arahants, such as those at the 3 Councils or Mahinda in this account. > Usually, the tears show when there is a lack of equanimity and some > clinging to self and momentary dosa in between the appreciation, gratitude > and reflections on wholesome states. This is why, for me, these times can > be quite unsettling. Sometimes I'll be reading a particularly meaningful > post or quote to Jon and have to stop because I've become too emotional;-) > ..... > Whatever the reaction - boredom, tears, disbelief, humour or gratitude, I > hope there is something of interest and of course the reaction is > conditioned just as it is at this moment and can be the object of > awareness. As we read in the quote from K.Sujin, "when the nama or rupa > which appears is seen as only a reality, there is a lessening of the > clinging to self....". > > metta, > > Sarah > 12591 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 1:35pm Subject: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Kom, thank you for this link - I can remember looking for this book a long time ago, and ending up with Acariya Dhammapala's 'A Treatise on the Paramis'(B.Bodhi), which was worthwhile, but not what I wanted at the time.... I appreciate your assistance, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I am not sure if somebody has mentioned this resource on > nekkhama: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.h > tm#Chapter%204 > > Nekkhama is not just leaving the household life into the > homeless life. TA. Sujin mentioned that in daily life, it > means when you have enough of something. Do we stop eating > when we are full, and not continue just for the taste? Do > we stop shopping if we have enough of what we need > (clothing, etc.)? Do we see the faults of akusala > (especially lobha) and the benefits of kusala? Leading by > panna (knowing that nekkhama eventually leads to > englightenment, etc.), nekhama is one of the 10 perfection > that must be develop in order for us to cross the flood. > > kom 12592 From: manji Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:22pm Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Kom, Nekkhamma (renunciation) perhaps is a function derived from sati. As with sati, it is clear that there is a difference between sati and dosa. So dosa does not arise with renunciation, and just as dosa does not arise, there can be no lobha. For example "I should not do", there can be dosa arising at the mistake, lobha arising with the satisfaction and pleasant feeling arising with noting the "mistake", and perhaps even conceit. A big mess of dukkha. ========= "In the train to Bodhgaya Bhante Dhammadhara read to us the "Silavimamsa-Jãtaka" (no. 330). It is said that a hawk seized a piece of meat and was pecked at by other birds who also wanted it, until he let go of it. Then another bird seized it who was harassed in his turn until he let go of it, and then the same happened to other birds who seized that piece of meat. Whoever let go of it was left in peace. The Bodhisatta said: "These desires of ours are like pieces of meat. To those that grasp at them is sorrow, and to those that let go is peace. ========= Then there is guarding the senses, and this too is a function of sati. There are vipaka cittas, and also kiriya cittas. So there "is" vipaka cittas and kiriya cittas, and there is dukkha. Another from the text by Nina Van Gorkom, a quote from... ========= "...We read in the commentary to the Cariyapitaka [1] the following definition of renunciation: "Renunciation has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency is its proximate cause. ========= In Japan and China there is this word "nin", and the kanji has a character for sword over the radical for mind. Living under the sword. A friend from Canada says there is no time to waste, and Guatama Buddha talks about this sense of urgency. Anyways, it is time to move on... >From Cula-sihanada Sutta: 9. "Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clinging. What four? Clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self. This process of liberation, there are the ten thousand joys and ten thousand sorrows, great moments of pleasant feeling and happiness may arise abundantly. Knowing these moments as they truly are. So perhaps there is "without attachment" not because there "is an abundance of pleasant feeling, so no need to go scrounging for pleasant feeling" and not because there "is an an absence of pleasant feeling, it is not worth suffering about", but because ultimately there is just "without attachment" and knowing of the dhamma. There is nekkhamma. Bye bye, ;) -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:kom@a...] > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide > > Dear Christine, > > I am not sure if somebody has mentioned this resource on > nekkhama: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.h > tm#Chapter%204 > > Nekkhama is not just leaving the household life into the > homeless life. TA. Sujin mentioned that in daily life, it > means when you have enough of something. Do we stop eating > when we are full, and not continue just for the taste? Do > we stop shopping if we have enough of what we need > (clothing, etc.)? Do we see the faults of akusala > (especially lobha) and the benefits of kusala? Leading by > panna (knowing that nekkhama eventually leads to > englightenment, etc.), nekhama is one of the 10 perfection > that must be develop in order for us to cross the flood. > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:51 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: > > choice and suicide > > > > > > Hi Manji, > > > > I am not clear on the point you are making in the > > first part of your > > post......The Raja sutta refers to not engaging > > in frivolous talk, > > and only engaging in Dhamma-talk or else keeping noble > > silence......do you perhaps feel there has been > > inappropriate or > > frivolous discussion on dsg? > > I meant to thank you for your post on anatta/kenosis in > > Christianity. You certainly have a breadth of > > knowledge of spiritual > > traditions, both Buddhist and non-Buddhist. > > > > I would be very interested to hear your > > understanding of the > > paramattha dhamma of dosa, and how it relates to > > or is different from > > renunciation. My understanding is limited to > > little more than the > > dictionary definitions (added below), and I don't > > recall coming > > across the term 'nekkhamma' before. So I will be > > looking forward to > > reading your posts on this topic. > > > > ["nekkhamma: 'freedom from sensual lust', > > renunciation. Though > > apparently from nir + Ö kram, 'to go forth (into > > the homeless > > state > > of a monk)', this term is in the Páli texts > > nevertheless used as > > if > > it were derived from káma, lust, and always as an > > antonym to > > káma. It > > is one of the perfections (s. páramí). N. > > sankappa, thought > > free from > > lust, or thought of renunciation, is one of the 3 > > kinds of right > > thought (sammá-sankappa), the 2nd link of the > > Noble Eightfold Path > > (s. magga, 2), its antonym being kámasankappa, > > lustful thought. > > > > dosa: 'hatred', anger, is one of the 3 > > unwholesome, roots (múla, > > q.v.). - d. citta: hate consciousness; s. Tab. I (30, 31). > > > > dosa-mula-citta: citta(consciousness) rooted in aversion > > > > paramattha dhamma: truth in the absolute sense: > > mental and physical > > phenomena, each with their own characteristic."] > > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > > > With regards to dhamma and the Raja Sutta... > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udan > a/ud2-02.html > > > > There is depression... there is suffering. > > > > Can we discuss the paramattha dhammas of dosa? And how > does this > relate > > to renunciation? Does renunciation bring out "dosa", bring > it out to > > work on? > > > > How are dosa and renunciation different? > > > > metta, > > manji 12593 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:08pm Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Manji, Beautifully written. Thanks. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: manji [mailto:manji@s...] > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 3:22 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide > > > Kom, > > Nekkhamma (renunciation) perhaps is a function derived from sati. As > with sati, it is clear that there is a difference between sati and dosa. > So dosa does not arise with renunciation, and just as dosa does not > arise, there can be no lobha. For example "I should not do", there can > be dosa arising at the mistake, lobha arising with the satisfaction and > pleasant feeling arising with noting the "mistake", and perhaps even > conceit. A big mess of dukkha. > 12594 From: Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Kom, I think I may be getting tangled up in mind door (manodvara), mind base (manayatana), and mind object base (dhammayatana). Mind door seems to have something to do with bhavanga cittas but I don't know what. As for the rest, this may clarify a little: from "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" p. 287 'The mind base, however, has a wider range than the mind door. It is identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental-object base does not completely coincide with mental objects (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases, the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since the notion of base (ayatana) extends only to ultimate realities, i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhava), and does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors, the sixteen kids of subtle matter, and Nibbana.' L: So would it be correct to say the object of dosa mula citta is dosa cetasika? Also, when you said 'When a citta and cetasikas cognizes dosa, for example, they cognize dosa that has fallen away (past), not the dosa that is present.' does this refer to a memory? Is a memory a cetasika (sati?)? This is all pretty confusing Kom. I don't understand the relationship between citta and cetasika, and I don't understand the nature of cetasika. Larry 12595 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 7:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Larry, 1) The mind-door (mano-dvara), the door by which the mind-door cittas arise, is the bhavanga citta itself. 2) The mind-base / mental-base (manayatana) include all 89 cittas (vinnana khandha) 3) The mind-object-base (dhammayatana) includes 16 refined rupa, all 52 cetasikas, and nibbana. 4) The mental objects (dhammaramana), objects that can be known only through the mind-door process, includes all dhammayatana, 5 sense rupa (sense door), all manayatana, and pannati. > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > from "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" p. 287 > > 'The mind base, however, has a wider range than the mind door. It is > identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its totality, > comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental-object base does > not completely coincide with mental objects (dhammarammana), but > includes only those entities not found among the other bases. Thus it You notice the additions of dhammaramana from dhammayatna: 5 sense rupa, all cittas, and pannatti. > L: So would it be correct to say the object of dosa mula citta is dosa > cetasika? Dosa (that has alrady fallen away) can be an object of dosa-mula citta (that is still present, along with its dosa cetasika, which is also present). On the other hand, all other things can be objects of dosa-mula cittas (rupa, cittas, cetasikas, concepts, excluding nibbana). Don't forget that a citta has only one object. The same dosa-mula citta cannot more than one object. > Also, when you said > > 'When a citta and cetasikas cognizes dosa, for example, they cognize > dosa that has fallen away (past), not the dosa that is present.' > > does this refer to a memory? Is a memory a cetasika (sati?)? Memory in our usage is more like sanna (but I have seen people translate sati as remembrance). So, Sati is mindfulness, awareness Sanna is marking, recalling. > This is all pretty confusing Kom. I don't understand the relationship > between citta and cetasika, and I don't understand the nature of > cetasika. Do you feel pleasant when eating good food? Feeling pleasant is vedana (probably a mixture of both sukha and somanassa). It conditions the citta. If you look at goglerr explanation: cetasikas color the mind. Do you feel "attached" to things that are pleasant? That's the chracteristic of lobha (attachment). Do you feel repelled by an object (like ugly things, your enemy, the fortunes of your adversary)? That's the function of dosa. I think we all learn a bit at a time about the dhamma. By the explanations that have already been given, what are the differences between cittas and cetasikas (in your understanding?). kom 12596 From: Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 8:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Kom, thanks for your detailed reply. Could you answer one more question. How does dosa mula citta experience rupa, for example? It isn't a 5 sense consciousness and one citta can't experience another citta. Is it the memory or mark that sanna makes when 5 sense conscousness experiences rupa that is the object of dosa mula citta? thanks, Larry 12597 From: Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:04pm Subject: ADL ch. 3 (19-21) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 3, paragraphs 19 - 21 19. The objects which we experience are the world in which we live. At the moment we see, the world is visible object. The world of visible object does not last, it falls away immediately. When we hear, the world is sound, but it falls away again. We are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects we experience through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind-door, but not one of these objects lasts. What is impermanent should not be taken for self. 20. In the 'Gradual Savings' (Book of the Fours, Ch.V,par. 5, Rohitassa) we read that Rohitassa, a deva, asked the Buddha about reaching the world's end. He said to the Buddha: 'Pray, lord, is it possible for us, by going, to know, to see, to reach world's end, where there is no more being born or growing old, no more dying, no more falling (from one existence) and rising up (in another)?' 'Your reverence, where there is no more being born or growing old, no more dying, no more falling from one existence and rising up in another, I declare that that end of the world is not by going to be known, seen or reached.' 'It is wonderful, lord! It is marvellous, lord, how well it is said by the Exalted One: "Where there is no more being born... that end of the world is not by going to be known, seen or reached!" ' 'Formerly, lord, I was the hermit called Rohitassa, Bhoja's son, one of psychic power, a sky-walker... The extent of my stride was as the distance between the eastern and the western oceans. To me, lord, possessed of such speed and of such a stride, there came a longing thus: I will reach world's end by going.' 'But, lord, not to speak of (the time spent over) food and drink, eating, tasting and calls of nature, not to speak of struggles to banish sleep and weariness, though my life-span was a hundred years, though I lived a hundred years, though I travelled a hundred years, yet I reached not world's end but died ere that. Wonderful indeed, lord! Marvellous it is, lord, how well it has been said by the Exalted One: "Your reverence, where there is no more being born... that end of the world is not by going to be known, seen or reached." ' 'But, your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of ill without reaching world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending of the world. Not to be reached by going is world's end. Yet there is no release for man from ill. Unless he reach world's end -Then let a man Become world-knower, wise, world-ender, Let him be one who lives the holy life. Knowing the world's end by becoming calmed. He longs not for this world or another';. (In Pali: Brahmacariya.) 21. The Buddha taught people about the 'world' and the way to reach the end of the world, that is, the end of suffering. The way to realize this is knowing the world, that is, knowing 'this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts', knowing oneself. -ooOoo- Questions 1. People are born in different circumstances: some are born rich, others are born poor. What is the cause of this? 2. People behave differently: some are stingy, others are generous. By what is this conditioned? 3. Each citta which arises falls away completely. How is it possible that defilements (kilesa) can be accumulated? 12598 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20)- Kom Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > > > "The water element, or fluidity, is the material > > factor that makes > > different particles of matter cohere, thereby > > preventing them from being > > scattered about. Its characteristic is trickling > > or oozing, its function > > is to intensify the coexisting material states, > > and it is manifested as > > the holding together or cohesion of material > > phenomena. Its proximate > > cause is the other three great essentials. the > > water element cannot be > > physically sensed but must be known inferentially > > from the cohesion of > > observed matter." > > ***** > > Did the text expand what being known inferentially means? > As I understand, one "easy" way to explain paramatha dhamma > is that it is a reality that can be directly known without > thinking. However, being inferntial (in the conventional > sense) brings us closer to thinking. I wonder if the text > would describe other forms of rupas (besides the 7) as can > be known inferentially. Kom, I’ve had another look at BB’s translation and also the other one by Narada on line. This sentence you refer to may be a little misleading. I think it is merely stressing that apodhatu (water element) cannot be experienced through the bodysense. Of course, as we know, apodhatu is one of the 18 nipphannaruupa (concretely produced matter), so-called “since they possess intrinsic natures and are thus suitable for contemplation and comprehension by insight.” Under the section #3 In detail: Concretely Produced Matter, we read about these rupas (inc. many like apodhatu which can only be experienced through the mind-door): “Thus these eighteen kinds of material phenomena are grouped together as: matter possessing intrinsic nature (sabhaavaruupam), matter possessing real characteristics (salakkha.naruupam), concretely produced matter (nipphannaruupam), material matter (ruuparuupam), and matter to be comprehended by insight." Hope that clarifies, Sarah ============== 12599 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20)- Larry Larry, You wrote: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, thanks for these very interesting answers, particularly the one > on water element. It almost sounds like gravity or magnetism. I wonder > if the water element is responsible for the elusive 'wholeness'? > Regarding sanna, if sanna conceptualizes does that mean that absolutely > every citta arises with a conceptual aspect to it? ********** Sanna merely ‘marks’ but doesn’t think. When there is seeing, hearing or touching, citta is cognizing, sanna is marking, but there is no conceptualizing or thinking at these moments for example. ,,,,,,,,,, I just copied these descriptions about apodhatu from the Narada translation on line. http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm You’ll see that apodhatu is one of the 8 inseperable rupas found in each kalapa (smallest unit) of rupa. The combination of different rupas give rise to the “elusive ‘wholeness’ “ and certainly water element or cohesion plays an integral role as we read below: ********** “Ápo is the element of cohesion. Unlike pathavi it is intangible. It is this element that makes scattered particles of matter cohere, and gives rise to the idea of 'body'. When solid bodies are melted, this element becomes more prominent in the resulting fluid. This element is found even in minute particles when solid bodies are reduced to powder. The elements of extension and cohesion are so closely interrelated that when cohesion ceases extension disappears.” ...... “Ápo-dhátu - lit., the fluid element . Ápo is derived from Ö ap, to arrive, or from á + Ö páy, to grow, to increase. It is 'the element of cohesion . According to Buddhism it is this element that makes different particles of matter cohere, and thus prevents them from being scattered about. Both fluidity and contraction are the properties of this element. It should be understood that cold is not a characteristic of this element.” “These four elements coexist and are inseparable, but one may preponderate over another as, for instance, pathavi in earth, ápo in water, tejo in fire, and váyo in air. They are also called Mahábhútas, or Great Essentials because they are invariably found in all material substances ranging from the infinitesimally small cell to the most massive object. Dependent on them are the four subsidiary material qualities of colour (vanna), smell (gandha), taste (rasa), and nutritive essence (ojá). These eight coexisting forces and qualities constitute one material group called 'suddhatthaka rúpa kalápa - pure-octad material group'.” ********** It’s not easy and your questions are good ones. i’ll pass on the gravity and magnetism;-) Sarah ==========