12600 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Larry, Have you ever smelled a pungent odor that you immediately dislike? It is the dosa that replled the object: it has that smell as its aramana. All the conascent states, including the citta along with other cetasikas, also has the smell as the aramana. Domanassa vedena co-arises with dosa-mula citta, the feeling associated with the citta, having the smell as its object, is unpleasant. If you read further on (in ADL), you will see that the cittas arising on the panca-dvara (5 sense door) all have the same object as aramana. Although dosa-mula citta doesn't smell (as that is the function of kana-vinnana citta), it has the smell as its aramana. When dosa-mula citta arises in the panca-dvara vithi, the object of the citta is still present (has not fallen away). When dosa-mula citta arises in the mano-dvara vithi, virtually immediately after the panca-dvara vithi, the dosa-mula cittas have the same rupa (but the rupa has already fallen away) as the aramana. Although logically, the dosa-mula citta is cognizing the memory of the visesa lakkana of the fallen away rupa, I don't think the text exactly says this. How this exactly works is probably very intricate, and may not be very important (because this happens so fast we won't be able to tell the difference anyway). kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:46 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) > > > Dear Kom, thanks for your detailed reply. Could > you answer one more > question. How does dosa mula citta experience > rupa, for example? It > isn't a 5 sense consciousness and one citta can't > experience another > citta. Is it the memory or mark that sanna makes > when 5 sense > conscousness experiences rupa that is the object > of dosa mula citta? > > 12601 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20)- Kom Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > Did the text expand what being known > inferentially means? > > As I understand, one "easy" way to explain > paramatha dhamma > > is that it is a reality that can be directly > known without > > thinking. However, being inferntial (in the > conventional > > sense) brings us closer to thinking. I wonder > if the text > > would describe other forms of rupas (besides > the 7) as can > > be known inferentially. > > > Kom, I’ve had another look at BB’s translation > and also the other one by > Narada on line. > > This sentence you refer to may be a little > misleading. I think it is > merely stressing that apodhatu (water element) > cannot be experienced > through the bodysense. Thanks for looking this up. I definitely didn't mean that the water element cannot be known directly; I am just puzzled by the choice of word "inferential" and was wondering if there is further explanation about what being inferential means. On the other hand, this thought occurs to me. I am obssessed to learn about what "inferential" and what "knowing directly through the mind, but not the sense" is really like. However, the visible object is also known through the mind door right now. If there is panna knowing the difference between knowing through the sense door, and knowing through the mind door (for visible object, and maybe other realities), then knowing other realities at the mind door is probably close enough to answer that question. Thanks for the chance for further reflection. kom 12602 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka corner2 Dear Christine, You really give us all some good laughs.....I still smile when I think about your post-analysis of the spider and lizard conditioned cittas;-))) As an active ‘insect-rescuer’ myself, , I was reflecting on a few hometruths too;-) After you politely challenged my memories of snake noises (which were after all nearly 30yrs ago!!!) and cautioning us whilst camping near dairy cattle, I should have known better than to think I could skip the hunting details from the Mahavamsa. So let me answer a couple of your questions here: ..... --- christine_forsyth wrote: >...... Hunting with forty thousand men? No > doubt they weren't all on foot either...... One would wonder if > whatever it was they were hunting had no sense of smell and was deaf > and blind as well.....and even then, as long as it was alive, it > would have been able to feel the pounding vibrations of all those > moving men and animals on the earth.... ..... Let me quote a little here from Ch X1V “The king Devanampiyatissa who had arranged a water festival for the dwellers in the capital, set forth to enjoy the pleasures of the chase. Attended by forty thousand of his men he went on FOOT to the Missaka mountain.The deva of the mountain who desired to show the theras to him, appeared there in the form of an elk-stag browsing in the thicket. When the king saw him, he thought: “It is unseemly to kill an unheeding (creature)’ and he struck out a sound from his bowstring; the stag fled towards the mountain The king pursued, but the stag in his flight drew near to the thera. when the thera came into the prince’s view the (deva) himself vanished.” ********** It rather reminds me of the recent debates in England over what is ‘seemly’ hunting;-) ..... You wrote at the end: > Thank you for reminding and clarifying from an abhidhamma point of > view just what is happening with tears and other reactions. .......... We don’t have to analyse and ‘try to work it out’, but we can be sure there are many moments of attachment and aversion mixed in with the appreciation and so on, I find. I understood the comments in your own post about “recognising the familiar path to home and safety after a dangerous journey” and ‘spiritual despair’. I’m sure many of us will sympathise with these sentiments. Thankyou , Azita and others for your honest and open-hearted sharing here. metta, Sarah ========= 12603 From: newthings_65 Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 0:02am Subject: dhamma courses Hi there all, I was wondering whether anyone knew of a correspondence course in Dhamma/Buddhist Studies? Are there any on-line courses? Help!!! Metta Jo 12604 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 0:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20)- Kom Dear Kom, > Thanks for looking this up. I definitely didn't mean that > the water element cannot be known directly; I am just > puzzled by the choice of word "inferential" and was > wondering if there is further explanation about what being > inferential means. ..... No more detail (or pali) on this.It’s in the Guide to #3, ch V1. I take it to mean that in terms of being physically experienced, it can only be known by inference from the experience of the other 7 rupas directly experienced through bodysense. Rather confusing, I agree. ..... > On the other hand, this thought occurs to me. I am > obssessed to learn about what "inferential" and what > "knowing directly through the mind, but not the sense" is > really like. ..... Like the subtle rupas and pasada rupas which can only be experienced and known through the mind-door, I think. It may seem that cakkhu pasada (eye-sense, as I was discussing w/Herman) or other rupas in these categories can only ever be thought about, but we don’t know what may be possible. Not easy at all, however and much depends on accumulations and growth of wisdom. ..... >However, the visible object is also known > through the mind door right now. If there is panna knowing > the difference between knowing through the sense door, and > knowing through the mind door (for visible object, and maybe > other realities), then knowing other realities at the mind > door is probably close enough to answer that question. ..... As I understand, visible object is being experienced through eye-door and immediately following mind-door processes sometimes. Awareness can arise in either process, but it’s not necessary ( or possible?) to know which and there’s no use in trying to find out. When there is awareness, it is just aware of its object and not concerned about door-ways. Now, most the time, the doorways are covered up because there is no awareness. When awareness develops they become clearer, not by thinking but by understanding the realities appearing more precisely. It’s clear that apodhatu cannot be experienced by body-sense and so on. I’m pretty sure we’re saying the same thing, so just ignore any repetitions. Always good chatting, Kom Sarah ===== 12605 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma courses Dear Jo, Welcome to dsg! --- newthings_65 wrote: > Hi there all, > > I was wondering whether anyone knew of a correspondence course in > Dhamma/Buddhist Studies? > > Are there any on-line courses? > > Help!!! Maybe you could add a little about your particular interest and I know others will provide links to more formal courses. Meanwhile, if you've just arrived, some of us are studying an introductory abhidhamma text together here as you'll see in the ADL headings. You're most welcome to join in and ask any questions, however basic. You'll find the first sections used for studies posted at this link under 'Beginner's Abhidhamma Corner' or something like that: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ We'd also be glad to hear anything else about you and your interest in Buddhism. (feel free to skip the technical posts for now;-)) Best wishes, Sarah ========== 12606 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:40am Subject: Re: dhamma courses Hi Jo, A couple of different courses from a Theravadin perspective may suit you. metta, Christine Buddhism for Beginners Course http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/bbcourse.htm Lecturers: mainly Theravadin Monks from the UK and USA and some lay persons Weekly Lectures by Emails or Internet New students can join anytime now ----------------------------------------------------------- MEDITATION COURSE ----------------------------------------------------------- http://www.vipassana.com/course/ Our online Meditation Course was established in 1997 and has been experienced by well over a thousand participants (many of whom have taken the course several times). It is ideally suited to those who wish to learn to meditate but are without access to a local meditation teacher or group. The course presents a balanced approach to Buddhist Meditation practice as found in the Theravada tradition. This 'doctrine of the elders' is rooted in the Buddha's teachings as recorded in the earliest Buddhist texts, and is the form of Buddhism nowadays most often found in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. Our 90 day course includes guidance on the traditional practices of Mindfulness of Breathing (anpanasati), the Sublime Abodes (loving- kindness, compassion, appreciative joy and equanimity) and Vipassana (insight) meditation. We look at the difficulties that are often encountered by meditators and at effective strategies for overcoming them. Careful attention is also given to the ethical framework that is necessary for spiritual development to occur. The courses are intensely practical and the emphasis is on enabling participants to develop a fulfilling and sustainable approach to meditation that remains consistent with the Buddha's teachings. ----------------------------------------------------------- FORTHCOMING COURSES ----------------------------------------------------------- The dates for the next two sessions of the Meditation Course have now been confirmed. Both of these courses will be supported by Andrew Quernmore, and each lasts 90 days. Course 1 begins in the week of MAY 12th, 2002 Course 2 begins in the week of DECEMBER 15th, 2002 Registration for both courses is now available on the vipassana.com web site. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "newthings_65" wrote: > Hi there all, > > I was wondering whether anyone knew of a correspondence course in > Dhamma/Buddhist Studies? > > Are there any on-line courses? > > Help!!! > > Metta > > Jo 12607 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 4:10am Subject: All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma Dear Dhamma Friends The following is a slightly edited version of the post I recently wrote to Joyce Short. Hope it stimulates your intellect and facilitates some brain-storming. With best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw --------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- Dear Joyce How are you? You wrote: "I turn up my nose at Abhidhamma, but when I read the clarity of Suan's posts, her (sic) calm, logical, non critical, even handed methods and ways of going about problem solving, this quite takes my breath away in delight and I could easily be seduced in to Abhidhamma study out of admiration for somene who walks the talk-that perhaps I then could be like her (sic). I might even be willing to be taught, a rare thing for me." (her (sic) = his, him. (Joyce thought Suan was a woman.)) Suan replied as follows. Thank you for your kind compliments on my posts. The following is my personal insights into the differentiation between Suttas and Abhidhamma. Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only abhidhamma. In plain English, abhidhamma is the subject of what we can observe, experience, remove, eradicate, cultivate, develop and achieve - in short, the subject of what we can do with our minds or our lives. And as every discourse in the Sutta Pitaka also deals with what we can do with our minds or our lives, every discourse teaches segments of abhidhamma. Now, why then is there the differentiation between Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka? The differentiation is not what they teach, but how they teach. When abhidhamma is spoon-fed to a particular listener, it is called a Sutta. In fact, that particular sutta can even be named after that listener. For example, Joyce Short Suttam. The Joyce Short Suttam would be a segment of abhidhamma tailored to Joyce Short. When a Sutta is explained by drawing out all the possible implications with or without their systemisation and reconstruction, it becomes Abhidhamma. There you have it. Every time you read a Suttam, you are reading a segment or segments of Abhidhamma. And when you come to the stage of feeling the need to know further implications and their links related to the partial teachings in that Suttam, then you are ready for listening to Abhidhamma Pitaka. You also wrote: "Unfortunately, this is not likely as I haven't the capacity" Well, I doubt that you did not have the capacity to learn things important to you, their implications and links fully and systematically. You also wrote: "Its not what we study or practice but how what we do transforms us. To me anyway." It is good to know that transformation is important to you. Transformation of the mind for the highest possible way is all that the Buddha taught, and that is why his teachings are called Abhidhamma. Abhi = extraordinary, extreme, done at the highest level, done in the highest way. Dhamma = teachings. With kind regards, Suan The bearded Aussie Man http://www.bodhiology.org 12608 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] corrected part of part 2 Co to Sivaka sutta and part 3. Dear Nina, Thankyou for your efforts to translate the commentary to the Sivaka Sutta. I wrote before about the references to bile (pitta) in the text (see end of post )and how I believe this needs to be understood from the Ayurveda point of view to be understood. Disorders or disturbances of the pitta type can thus be easily observed. I’ve just come across B.Bodhi’s translation of the sutta and notice he refers to bile disorders, phlegm disorders and wind disorders.and adds a note at the back to say (p1435) “that bile (pitta), phlegm (semha), and wind (vaata) are the three bodily humours (dosa) of Indian Ayurveda medicine.” .......... I’ve found these websites which you may like to have a quick glance at for an idea of the history of ayurveda/more details about pitta and other constitutions: http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/ayurveda.html http://www.ayurveda-herbs.com/Ayurveda-Alternative-Herbs.htm I hope this helps a little. It is not the same as ‘bile’ in a western sense. Sarah =============== This is a note from one of my links above: “The concept of constitution (prakriti) is central to Ayurveda. Individuals are comprised of the 3 forces (Vata, Pitta, Kapha) in unique combinations so that no 2 persons are alike. The constitutional determination provides insight into the deeper workings of an individual. With this it is possible to become aware of the foods, spices, herbal medicines, emotions, thoughts, climates, colours, activities and so on that tend to either balance or unbalance a particular individual and to either improve or aggravate various types of illness.” QUOTE FROM MY EARLIER POST “According to Ayurveda, vata, pitta and kapha are names for these three principles of movement and heat , which combine to determine each person's mind/body type or constitution. I’m just quoting from a book before I get mixed up: “Vata controls all movement in the body such as respiration, circulation, elimination and the flow of nerve impulses to and from the brain. Pitta governs digestion and assimilation of food and liquids throughout the body. Kapha governs protection through the mucus membranes and stability through bone structure.” Anyway, I started on this diversion when I read the Pali below (pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi) for ‘produced by (disorders of the) bile’ and immediately thought of the ayurvedice ‘pitta’ types and disorders. Usually they are firy and easily irritable. ..... ``pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti. saamampi kho eta.m, siivaka, veditabba.m yathaa pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti; lokassapi kho eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m yathaa pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti. "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.” “ ====================================================== 12609 From: Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi, Kom (and Larry) - In a message dated 4/11/02 10:34:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > The mind-door (mano-dvara), the door by which the mind-door cittas arise, > is the bhavanga citta itself. > ======================= I don't understand this in a couple ways ways: First of all, bhavanga citta is supposed to be an act of consciousness whose object is (a repetition of) the object of the last death consciousness. Are you now saying that this very citta also has the additional function of serving as mental gateway? Secondly, it was my understanding that mind in bhavanga-citta mode is likened to a spider sitting in the middle of its web, waiting, and suddenly scurrying out after prey (an object) when the object is sensed. But what the mind adverts to can be of any sort. It could be any rupa or it could be a nama - a feeling, a memory, a thought, and emotion, etc. Why is the bhavanga citta especially the *mind* door? Also, once an adverting citta arises, the bhavanga citta has ceased; isn't that so. So wherein lies the "door" function" Exactly what is the function of being a "door"? Isn't it possible that when there is talk of a "sense door" - the eye door, ear door, body door, nose door, tongue door, and mind door, that this is merely a manner of speaking, for the purpose of describing the nature of a particular act of discernment, so that, for example, when the discernment of sight arises it is *said* that "the discernment arose through the eye door" to merely categorize the discernment as visual, and associate it with the physical eye (which, of course, plays an essential role in human and higher-animal vision), and when the discernment of a thought or feeling or disposition or emotion arises it is *said* that "the discernment arose through the mind door" to merely categorize the discernment as mental. [And in modern times, we would associate the phrase "mental discernment" with the physical brain (which, of course, plays an essential role in human cognition).] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12610 From: goglerr Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 9:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts & realities Dear Jon I was away for few days, sorry for the late reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Dear Lucy and Jon, > > > > Distinguishing of nama and rupa through reflection and thinking is > > praiseworthy (although theory is one of the precursor), but not > > enough to develop penetrating wisdom. > > A useful reminder, one which cannot be heard too often. As you say, correct > theoretical understanding of the difference between nama and rupa is a prerequisite > to the arising of the knowledge/insight that knows this difference directly. > > I found interesting the rest of your post in which you discuss the development of > insight by reference to the different kinds of lakkhana (briefly, if I have > understood you correctly, awareness of a dhamma leads to the seeing of it's > individual essence or characteristic, then to its nature of arising and falling, > then to the perception of anicca, dukkha and anatta in relation to the dhamma). > > I would agree that the 3 characteristics are not fully penetrated until > enlightenment is attained (I think this is clearly stated in the Visuddhimagga). I > would just like to add the suggestion that the development of the understanding of > these characteristics, and of the other characteristics you mention, actually begins > with the development of awareness and proceeds gradually as insight is accumulated. > But perhaps what you have said was not intended to suggest otherwise. G: You're right. Anicca, dukkha, anatta will unfold themselves gradually as the awareness deepens. The more the awareness of the realities of mind and body, the more subtle aspect of anicca, dukkha, anatta will arise i.e. deeper insight knowledge will arise. > Also, we should add into your progressive description somewhere the knowledge of the distinction between nama and rupa discussed above. To my understanding, it belongs at the very beginning, before even the knowledge of the individual essence or characteristic. Would you agree with this? G: If I get u correctly, do you mean that the knowledge of distinction of mind and body arises before seeing the individual essence? If u don't mean that, pls ignore the further explanation. If it is so, I beg to differ at this point. One has to see the individual essence for the insight to arise. Even at that insight knowledge or even any insight knowledge that is being developed, we have to keep searching/investigating for the individual essence (sabbhava) for the tilakkahana to unfold. For example we see the wind element by knowing it through tension, stiffness, movement of the body, or the fire element – heat or cold etc. and see them how they come and how they go and how they change. That means, at all times during practice, we have to see the sabhava. In the actual observation during the practice, once the sabhava lakkahana is being seen, at a particular moment, the other two lakkhanas will arises simultaneously. It only a matter of clear we are. When one (sabhava) we see all three lakkhana. We also do not differentiate them during noting because the mind will loose the momentum of concentration due to a lot of thinking comes in – thinking of `now, what is this lakkhana?', `hmmm, is this the tilakkhana?' and so on. We only see them as they are. Only for the sake of theory that we differentiate them out for clearer and easier understanding. > Finally, I note that in your `PS 1' you equate `sabhaava' with `visesa lakkhana'. > Could you expand a little on this for us? I would be particularly interested in any > textual references you may have. Many thanks. > Jon G: I got the reference that sabhava being synonymous with vivesa in the book `On the Path to Freedom' by Sayadaw U Pandita. I also checked the pali-english dictionary which they explain the meaning, no difference from one to the other. They also gave a lot of references on where they use the words in the Tipitaka and the commentaries. I am using Rhys Davids and Stede dictionary. Perhaps u may have some idea how they are different. Kindly share. Interesting sharing. T-h-a-n-k y-o-u. goglerr 12611 From: Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20)- Larry Thanks for all this great research Sarah [on water element and sanna]. One question, you say sanna marks but does not think. So what thinks? Also, does sanna remember? If so, is it responsible for all memory functions? thanks, Larry 12612 From: Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 4:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi Kom, maybe you are right and it doesn't matter too much, but I was trying to understand the difference between citta and cetasika. The only difference I can think of is that dosa mula citta can (sometimes?) initiate kamma but dosa cetasika cannot. Suppose I touch a hot stove. The touch citta experiences HOT!, along wth it vedana cetasika experiences PAIN!; then with that dosa cetasika experiences aversion (it is unclear whether the object of dosa is hot or pain). Then anger arises due to conceit and ditthi ("I am hurt"). I would say this is dosa mula citta experiencing conceit and ditthi as anger, and this has the potential to create kamma. How would you analyze this? Can a cetasika arise without a citta? Every experience is so complex, it seems like there are many objects and sometimes it seems like several cetasikas are combined (sankhata?) into one and become an object to another citta. Does sanna cetasika take note of all cetasikas? Larry 12613 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma courses http://www.vipassana.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "newthings_65" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:02 AM Subject: [dsg] dhamma courses > Hi there all, > > I was wondering whether anyone knew of a correspondence course in > Dhamma/Buddhist Studies? > > Are there any on-line courses? > > Help!!! > > Metta > > Jo 12614 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma Dear Suan (& Joyce), I liked this explanation below. In appreciation:-)) Sarah ===== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Now, why then is there the differentiation between Sutta Pitaka and > Abhidhamma Pitaka? > > The differentiation is not what they teach, but how they teach. > > When abhidhamma is spoon-fed to a particular listener, it is called a > Sutta. In fact, that particular sutta can even be named after that > listener. For example, Joyce Short Suttam. The Joyce Short Suttam > would be a segment of abhidhamma tailored to Joyce Short. > > When a Sutta is explained by drawing out all the possible > implications with or without their systemisation and reconstruction, > it becomes Abhidhamma. > > There you have it. > > Every time you read a Suttam, you are reading a segment or segments > of Abhidhamma. > > And when you come to the stage of feeling the need to know further > implications and their links related to the partial teachings in that > Suttam, then you are ready for listening to Abhidhamma Pitaka. ===================================================== 12615 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 9:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 4:40 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) > > > Hi Kom, maybe you are right and it doesn't matter too much, but I was > trying to understand the difference between citta and cetasika. The only > difference I can think of is that dosa mula citta can (sometimes?) > initiate kamma but dosa cetasika cannot. I think you are definitely right to say that knowing the difference between cittas and cetasikas are important. What I suggested that may not be as important is to be able to explain exactly and correctly how the citta process manages to know the paramatha dhamma that has already fallen away (you suggested memory, and I logically concurred). When we talking about conascent states, I think they are truly intertwined with one another. Technically, only the cetana cetasika that is conascent with both the dosa-mula citta and dosa cetasikas is kamma, but we know that for that kamma to arise, the citta, the dosa-mula citta, and *all* other conascent states, must condition the kamma. > > Suppose I touch a hot stove. The touch citta experiences HOT!, along wth > it vedana cetasika experiences PAIN!; then with that dosa cetasika > experiences aversion (it is unclear whether the object of dosa is hot or > pain). Then anger arises due to conceit and ditthi ("I am hurt"). I > would say this is dosa mula citta experiencing conceit and ditthi as > anger, and this has the potential to create kamma. How would you analyze > this? Let's say this: 1) When touching of the stove occurs, there is citta, along with the pain (unpleasant bodily feeling), arising to experince HOT. You notice that the citta, along with the painful vedana, along with other conascent states, experience the same object: HOT. 2) After that, but still in the same panca-dvara vithi, dosa-mula citta, along with its conascent states including the mental pain (unpleasant mental feeling), arises to experience still the same object: HOT. 3) After that, in the immediately following mano-dvara vithi, dosa-mula citta still experience the same object, HOT, albeit the HOT in actuallity has already fallen away. 4) It can be only a bit later (not sure when) that there may be other dosa-mula cittas that experience (the already fallen away) the unpleasant bodily feeling in 1), or the unpleasant mental feeling in 2) or 3). 5) When we start thinking more about the combination of stuffs (heat, bodily pain, mental pain), then conceit and ditthi may arise, but as you know conceit and dithi only arises with lobha, and not dosa. 6) You have already demonstrated (which I agree) that this process is truly intricate. Each person can truly know this by wisdom, and not speculation (although it helps to understand that this is truly intricate). 7) My observation is that in our daily life, our attachment and anger are mostly due to the concept (that I am hurt, etc.). Do you notice that when you are angry for while (a few minutes), it is because you are thinking about the situation, although the trigger of that anger is already long gone. When someone cuts in front of me (while I am driving), the unpleasant visible objects only last (conventionally speaking) for a few seconds. But then, I will start fuming about how the other driver is a bad driver, or that I will be late for work, etc. 8) TA Sujin mentioned that anger arising out of realities are usually short (since the conditioned dhamma, the reality itself, doesn't last very long). This is in contrast to anger arising out of concepts (which neither rises or falls, albeit doesn't exist at the paramatha level) lasts for a long time (again, conventionally speaking). This is because concepts don't fall away. We continue to be angry as long as we continue thinking about the things that make us angry. > Can a cetasika arise without a citta? Every experience is so complex, it > seems like there are many objects and sometimes it seems like several > cetasikas are combined (sankhata?) into one and become an object to > another citta. Does sanna cetasika take note of all cetasikas? Cittas always arise with cetasikas, cetasikas always arise with citta. They cannot be separated. Experiences are complex because conditioned nama rises and falls incalculably fast. The co-arising citta and cetasikas cognize only one object at a time. It seems like they are combined because it is so fast. Sanna takes note of whatever is the aramana of both the citta and sanna (and other cetasikas), and nothing else. kom 12616 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Rob K --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > If I am not mistaken, the paticca-samuppada is one of the aspects > of the dhamma > > that was contemplated by the Buddha in the weeks following his > enlightenment > > (i.e., rather than being something the realisation of which > contributed to his > > enlightenment). > > > >==========hk > Dear Jon, > Just a minor point. : On the eve just before full enlightenment in > the first watch the Buddha (to be) based on anapanasati realised > pubbenivasanussati-abhinna, (knowledge of lives), in the middle > watch, dibbacakkhu abhinna, (special vision) and finally he insighted > paticcasamuppada . This final stage of seeing into paticcasamuppada > happened just before dawn and upon its completion he became Buddha. > > In later weeks,in the vicinity of the Bodhi tree , he contempated in > detail the Patthana , the 24 conditions. This area is marked by a > marble plaque which you have probably seen at the site in Bodhgaya. > best wishes > robert Thanks for this correction. (Not such a minor point, perhaps!) BTW, any thoughts of your own on the question Howard and I are discussing, namely how the conditioning relationships that exist as between dhammas, and dependent origination in particular, are to be known would be welcome. Jon 12617 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Howard Thanks very much for your further comments. Here’s how I see it. When dhammas are directly known by panna, they are known by degrees. At first, only their broad characteristic as either nama or rupa is known. As the understanding is developed, they are known in more detail, and at the same time more is known *about* them. Included in the things that are known as insight is developed further is the conditioned nature of the dhammas and the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. We also need to keep in mind that the knowledge being developed by insight is knowledge of individual dhammas, not of the whole mass of dhammas collectively. So when we talk about the conditioned nature of dhammas being seen, we refer in fact to conditionality as a quality of an individual dhamma that is the object of insight, and likewise with the 3 characteristics. Now whether one describes this knowledge as being direct, inferential or whatever is not really of concern. The fact is, it is knowledge of/about dhammas that accrues from the direct experiencing of those dhammas by panna of the level of satipatthana, and not from any other source. This I understand to be the significance of the Satipatthana Sutta being described as the ‘direct way’. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > 1. The Abhidhamma as a detailed codification of what is to be known. > > The Abhidhamma is a codification of all phenomena that constitute samsara > > and nibbana, and of anything about those phenomena that is of relevance to the > > attainment of enlightenment. But that is not to say that everything in the > > Abhidhamma needs to be known. Enlightenment is attained when dhammas are > > known to the extent that their characteristics are penetrated and their true > > nature is seen. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Their true nature is relational, wherin lies their emptiness, their > being anatta. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > 2. Conditionality as a general aspect of dhammas vs. paticca-samuppada. > > As I see it, there is a clear difference between *seeing the conditioned > > nature > > of dhammas* and a *detailed knowledge of various cnditioning factors at > > play at > > diferenct moments*. The former is required for enlightenment, the latter > > is the realm of great minds like the Buddha's. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with that. But the conditionality, to be truly known, must be > known directly, not just inferentially. Paticcasamupada, as traditionally > presented, begins with the general statement of conditionality, and then > specializes it to the conditionlity leading to the arising of > unsatisfactoriness. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > Understanding conditionality as being the general nature of things does not > > imply a knowledge of the number and kind of conditioning factors that may > > pertain at a given moment, although of course a degree of knowledge about > > different kinds of conditioning factors is necessary. > > If I am not mistaken, the paticca-samuppada is one of the aspects of the > > dhamma > > that was contemplated by the Buddha in the weeks following his > > enlightenment > > (i.e., rather than being something the realisation of which contributed to > > his enlightenment). > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That may not be so. I believe Robert commented on this. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 3. The 3 characteristics and the conditioned nature of dhammas. > > There is no doubt a close connection here, but I think that knowledge of > > these > > things is developed by directly experiencing and understanding dhammas > > themselves as they truly are, and not by 'studying' paticca-samuppada or > > the 3 characteristics. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This suggests that dhammas are static, separate things that are > individually directly observable, that there do somehow exist relations among > these separate things, but that the relations are only inferable by using > reason to compare the separate things, and not directly observable with > wisdom. This reminds me of the old billiard ball physics that used to be in > vogue, but I don't think it adequately expresses the Dhammic view of dhammas, > which seems to me to be more like that of things-in-relation, with the > relations at least as important as the "things" related. To truly see that > conditioned dhammas are dependently arisen, that seeing must be a direct > seeing, with wisdom, and not just an inference made on the basis of > comparisons of separate objects, or so it seems to me. > =========================== > With metta, > Howard 12618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts & realities Goglerr --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Jon > > I was away for few days, sorry for the late reply. Not a problem, G. (Anyway, your reply is not late by my standards!) > G: You're right. Anicca, dukkha, anatta will unfold themselves > gradually as the awareness deepens. The more the awareness of the > realities of mind and body, the more subtle aspect of anicca, dukkha, > anatta will arise i.e. deeper insight knowledge will arise. Yes, ‘unfolds’ describes it neatly. It happens in its own good time. Just a minor point. You refer here to ‘the realities of mind and body’. As a translation of ‘nama and rupa’ I think ‘mind and body’ can be misleading, since the realties that comprise the present moment include realities that we don't take for either mind or body, and which also can be (and need to be) the object of awareness. > > Also, we should add into your progressive description somewhere the > knowledge of the distinction between nama and rupa discussed above. > To my understanding, it belongs at the very beginning, before even > the knowledge of the individual essence or characteristic. Would you > agree with this? > > G: If I get u correctly, do you mean that the knowledge of > distinction of mind and body arises before seeing the individual > essence? If u don't mean that, pls ignore the further > explanation. If it is so, I beg to differ at this point. One has to > see the individual essence for the insight to arise. Even at that > insight knowledge or even any insight knowledge that is being > developed, we have to keep searching/investigating for the individual > essence (sabbhava) for the tilakkahana to unfold. For example we see > the wind element by knowing it through tension, stiffness, movement > of the body, or the fire element – heat or cold etc. and see them how > they come and how they go and how they change. That means, at all > times during practice, we have to see the sabhava. In the actual > observation during the practice, once the sabhava lakkahana is being > seen, at a particular moment, the other two lakkhanas will arises > simultaneously. It only a matter of clear we are. When one (sabhava) > we see all three lakkhana. We also do not differentiate them during > noting because the mind will loose the momentum of concentration due > to a lot of thinking comes in – thinking of `now, what is this > lakkhana?', `hmmm, is this the tilakkhana?' and so on. We only see > them as they are. Only for the sake of theory that we differentiate > them out for clearer and easier understanding. Yes, you have read me correctly. ;-) To my understanding, the aspect of nama-ness or rupa-ness is the first thing that is known about any reality, before even its individual essence. I believe this idea is based in part on the fact that the first of the 16 stages of understanding leading to the first stage of enlightenment is given as ‘the knowledge of the defining of nama and rupa’. Perhaps more importantly, I would say that we have no control over what aspect understanding sees when it arises. So it is not a matter of trying to direct attention to nama-ness/rupa-ness or to the sabhava lakkhana in particular. > G: I got the reference that sabhava being synonymous with vivesa in > the book `On the Path to Freedom' by Sayadaw U Pandita. I also > checked the pali-english dictionary which they explain the meaning, > no difference from one to the other. They also gave a lot of > references on where they use the words in the Tipitaka and the > commentaries. I am using Rhys Davids and Stede dictionary. Perhaps u > may have some idea how they are different. Kindly share. Thanks. I will check the PED as soon as I have a chance to do so. Does the Ven author of the other book give any source for his statement? I would be most interested to see it if he does. > Interesting sharing. T-h-a-n-k y-o-u. > > goglerr And thanks to you, too, G. Jon 12619 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 12, 2002 11:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): mind door, sense door Dear Howard, This is a very good question (which means I cannot answer). I hope others will contribute in details. As far as I understand, the 5 senses and bhavanga are said to be doors because they are ways for which the citta process arises (between bhavanga). Without the door way, the citta arising through that particular door cannot arise. This emphasizes the conditionality/relationship between the door, be it rupa or nama, and the cittas and cetasikas. A sense door way (a pasada rupa) serves more than just being the door way: it also serves as as the place from which the vinnana (seeing, hearing, etc.) citta and its associated cittas arise. The bhavanga doesn't have such duty for the cittas and cetasikas that follow it. I know this just contributes unrelated bits and pieces, but hope it is useful anyway. ;=) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:32 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) > > > Hi, Kom (and Larry) - > > In a message dated 4/11/02 10:34:56 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > kom@a... writes: > > > I don't understand this in a couple ways ways: > First of all, bhavanga citta is supposed > to be an act of consciousness > whose object is (a repetition of) the object of ... 12620 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi. Kom (and Larry) - In a message dated 4/13/02 12:53:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Let's say this: > 1) When touching of the stove occurs, there is citta, along with the pain > (unpleasant bodily feeling), arising to experince HOT. You notice that the > citta, along with the painful vedana, along with other conascent states, > experience the same object: HOT. > > 2) After that, but still in the same panca-dvara vithi, dosa-mula citta, > along with its conascent states including the mental pain (unpleasant > mental > feeling), arises to experience still the same object: HOT. > > 3) After that, in the immediately following mano-dvara vithi, dosa-mula > citta still experience the same object, HOT, albeit the HOT in actuallity > has already fallen away. > > 4) It can be only a bit later (not sure when) that there may be other > dosa-mula cittas that experience (the already fallen away) the unpleasant > bodily feeling in 1), or the unpleasant mental feeling in 2) or 3). > > ================================== This looks really good to my uneducated eye. I do have two comments: 1) With regard to your number (2), it does seems to me that the aversion is to the pain, not to the rupa of strong heat, although we do make the association with the heat, since it is from the contact with heat that the pain arises; it is heat-conditioned pain. I say this, because of the contact -> vedana and vedana -> tanha links in paticcasamupada as well as my own understanding. 2) One thing I seem to see missing from your clear analysis is the entry of sa~n~na into the mix. It is after the vedana (whether it be pain, in the case of very strong heat, or a milder sensation in the case of a weaker heat) that one ffrst perceives/recognizes the heat AS HEAT. With contact as condition arises feeling; what one feels, one perceives (cognizes). This is how it is described in the suttas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12621 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/13/02 1:34:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks very much for your further comments. Here’s how I see it. > > When dhammas are directly known by panna, they are known by degrees. At > first, > only their broad characteristic as either nama or rupa is known. As the > understanding is developed, they are known in more detail, and at the same > time > more is known *about* them. > > Included in the things that are known as insight is developed further is > the > conditioned nature of the dhammas and the 3 characteristics of anicca, > dukkha > and anatta. > > We also need to keep in mind that the knowledge being developed by insight > is > knowledge of individual dhammas, not of the whole mass of dhammas > collectively. > So when we talk about the conditioned nature of dhammas being seen, we > refer > in fact to conditionality as a quality of an individual dhamma that is the > object of insight, and likewise with the 3 characteristics. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Conditionality is a relation, Jon, not a property. Dhammas are conditionally arisen. This cannot be seen by staring at individual dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Now whether one describes this knowledge as being direct, inferential or > whatever is not really of concern. The fact is, it is knowledge of/about > dhammas that accrues from the direct experiencing of those dhammas by panna > of > the level of satipatthana, and not from any other source. This I > understand to > be the significance of the Satipatthana Sutta being described as the ‘ > direct > way’. > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12622 From: goglerr Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 7:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts & realities >Does the Ven author of the other book give any source for his statement? I would be most interested to see it if he does. Jon, Unfortunately, he didn't :( G 12623 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 9:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): the discussion of HEAT and vedana Dear Howard, Thanks for your comments. > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:42 AM > > > > Let's say this: > > 1) When touching of the stove occurs, there is > citta, along with the pain > > (unpleasant bodily feeling), arising to > experince HOT. You notice that the > > citta, along with the painful vedana, along > with other conascent states, > > experience the same object: HOT. > > > > 2) After that, but still in the same > panca-dvara vithi, dosa-mula citta, > > along with its conascent states including the > mental pain (unpleasant > > mental > > feeling), arises to experience still the same > object: HOT. > > > > 3) After that, in the immediately following > mano-dvara vithi, dosa-mula > > citta still experience the same object, HOT, > albeit the HOT in actuallity > > has already fallen away. > > > > 4) It can be only a bit later (not sure when) > that there may be other > > dosa-mula cittas that experience (the already > fallen away) the unpleasant > > bodily feeling in 1), or the unpleasant mental > feeling in 2) or 3). > > > > > ================================== > This looks really good to my uneducated > eye. I do have two comments: > 1) With regard to your number (2), it does > seems to me that the > aversion is to the pain, not to the rupa of > strong heat, although we do make > the association with the heat, since it is from > the contact with heat that > the pain arises; it is heat-conditioned pain. I > say this, because of the > contact -> vedana and vedana -> tanha links in > paticcasamupada as well as my > own understanding. In the very precise explanation of the abhidhamma, all the nama in the sense door, including the aversion that we dicuss in (2), must be experiencing the sense object, which in this case is heat. Also on the same token, the aversion that arises in the mind door immediately following (3), also experiences again the same sense object. The model is pretty strict: there can be no other way. The aversion toward the vedana (either the painful bodily feeling, or the unplesant mental feeling [arising with aversion]) can only come later through the mind door (and never the sense door). But again, later here means blindingly fast. There is no other phenomenon that is faster than the rising and falling away of namas. Conventionally speaking, both you and Larry are absolutely right that for us, we will predominantly notice the bodily painful feeling and the unpleasant mental feeling. We are completely driven by vedana, be it pleasant or unpleasant. In the abhidhamma model, any painful bodily feeling results from a contact with one of the three sense object (hardness, heat, or tactile), but when we feel pain, do we notice that sense object? When I have pain in my arm, for example, I would definitely notice the pain, but I certainly don't notice any sense object, but yet intellectually (by abhidhamma explanation), the sense object must be there. > 2) One thing I seem to see missing from > your clear analysis is the > entry of sa~n~na into the mix. It is after the > vedana (whether it be pain, in > the case of very strong heat, or a milder > sensation in the case of a weaker > heat) that one ffrst perceives/recognizes the > heat AS HEAT. With contact as > condition arises feeling; what one feels, one > perceives (cognizes). This is > how it is described in the suttas. > You are absolutely right here. My explanation is simplistic, excluding the sanna and further details on sankhara kandhas. I was hoping that by excluding those, it is more manageable (although may mislead some) to understand. Sanna is very important in the scenario. Because of the sanna (and the blinding speeds of the namas), the ignorant mass (that's me!) don't see the rising and falling away of the dhammas, and mistake them as being us, being ours (our pain, my body, etc.). Sankhara kandhas (dosa, moha, vitakka, etc), especially kamma, are also present. Being angry, we may take this out on somebody else (an unpleasant stare, or word), and this certainly will cause unpleasant vipaka in the future. As Num has been discussing recently: the three cycles here is complete. Vipaka vatta [feeling painful bodily feeling], kilesa vatta [anger], and kamma vatta [stare, or word with anger]. Just one more comment on your comment here "With contact as condition arises feeling; what one feels, one perceives (cognizes)", I have somehow understood here that the perception here is sanna (marking, recalling) instead of cognition. I will need to verify this (unless other people say something first!). kom 12624 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): the discussion of HEAT and vedana Hi, Kom - In a message dated 4/13/02 12:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for your comments. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:42 AM > > > > > > Let's say this: > > > 1) When touching of the stove occurs, there is > > citta, along with the pain > > > (unpleasant bodily feeling), arising to > > experince HOT. You notice that the > > > citta, along with the painful vedana, along > > with other conascent states, > > > experience the same object: HOT. > > > > > > 2) After that, but still in the same > > panca-dvara vithi, dosa-mula citta, > > > along with its conascent states including the > > mental pain (unpleasant > > > mental > > > feeling), arises to experience still the same > > object: HOT. > > > > > > 3) After that, in the immediately following > > mano-dvara vithi, dosa-mula > > > citta still experience the same object, HOT, > > albeit the HOT in actuallity > > > has already fallen away. > > > > > > 4) It can be only a bit later (not sure when) > > that there may be other > > > dosa-mula cittas that experience (the already > > fallen away) the unpleasant > > > bodily feeling in 1), or the unpleasant mental > > feeling in 2) or 3). > > > > > > > > ================================== > > This looks really good to my uneducated > > eye. I do have two comments: > > 1) With regard to your number (2), it does > > seems to me that the > > aversion is to the pain, not to the rupa of > > strong heat, although we do make > > the association with the heat, since it is from > > the contact with heat that > > the pain arises; it is heat-conditioned pain. I > > say this, because of the > > contact -> vedana and vedana -> tanha links in > > paticcasamupada as well as my > > own understanding. > > In the very precise explanation of the abhidhamma, all the > nama in the sense door, including the aversion that we > dicuss in (2), must be experiencing the sense object, which > in this case is heat. Also on the same token, the aversion > that arises in the mind door immediately following (3), also > experiences again the same sense object. The model is > pretty strict: there can be no other way. > > The aversion toward the vedana (either the painful bodily > feeling, or the unplesant mental feeling [arising with > aversion]) can only come later through the mind door (and > never the sense door). But again, later here means > blindingly fast. There is no other phenomenon that is > faster than the rising and falling away of namas. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the point being made, and it may well be correct. But my every intuition and experience, increasingly with mindfulness practice, is that craving and aversion are oriented directly towards vedana (or the fresh memory of vedana), and only indirectly to the object-of-contact that led to the vedana. The opposite view would be one that I would have to take completely on faith. Were I to see that view clearly expressed in the suttas, I would be more inclined to accept it on faith. Do you know of any such suttic support? --------------------------------------------------- > > Conventionally speaking, both you and Larry are absolutely > right that for us, we will predominantly notice the bodily > painful feeling and the unpleasant mental feeling. We are > completely driven by vedana, be it pleasant or unpleasant. > In the abhidhamma model, any painful bodily feeling results > from a contact with one of the three sense object (hardness, > heat, or tactile), but when we feel pain, do we notice that > sense object? When I have pain in my arm, for example, I > would definitely notice the pain, but I certainly don't > notice any sense object, but yet intellectually (by > abhidhamma explanation), the sense object must be there. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: The pain in one's arm occurs *after* the observed assault on the arm, i.e. after the body-door contact, at which time the original contact has already *ceased*, and the reaction of aversion follows after that. So, what "object" can be present at the time of the aversion? If it is a memory, which it surely must be, it is more likely to be the more recent memory of the pain, rather than of the hard touching which preceded the pain. ---------------------------------------------------- > > > 2) One thing I seem to see missing from > > your clear analysis is the > > entry of sa~n~na into the mix. It is after the > > vedana (whether it be pain, in > > the case of very strong heat, or a milder > > sensation in the case of a weaker > > heat) that one ffrst perceives/recognizes the > > heat AS HEAT. With contact as > > condition arises feeling; what one feels, one > > perceives (cognizes). This is > > how it is described in the suttas. > > > > You are absolutely right here. My explanation is > simplistic, excluding the sanna and further details on > sankhara kandhas. I was hoping that by excluding those, it > is more manageable (although may mislead some) to > understand. Sanna is very important in the scenario. > Because of the sanna (and the blinding speeds of the namas), > the ignorant mass (that's me!) don't see the rising and > falling away of the dhammas, and mistake them as being us, > being ours (our pain, my body, etc.). Sankhara kandhas > (dosa, moha, vitakka, etc), especially kamma, are also > present. Being angry, we may take this out on somebody else > (an unpleasant stare, or word), and this certainly will > cause unpleasant vipaka in the future. As Num has been > discussing recently: the three cycles here is complete. > Vipaka vatta [feeling painful bodily feeling], kilesa vatta > [anger], and kamma vatta [stare, or word with anger]. > > Just one more comment on your comment here "With contact as > condition arises feeling; what one feels, one perceives > (cognizes)", I have somehow understood here that the > perception here is sanna (marking, recalling) instead of > cognition. I will need to verify this (unless other people > say something first!). ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I should have said "recognition" rather than "cognition". ---------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12625 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 9:54am Subject: Abhidhamma, to Suan Dear Suan, thank you for your excellent post on Abhidhamma. You explained very clearly that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time. Ultimate realities, as taught in the Abhidhamma, are the objects of the development of right understanding that leads to the eradication of defilements, and only Buddhas teach Abhidhamma. I like the way you explain that in the Suttanta there is spoonfeeding of Abhidhamma, depending on the capacity of understanding of the listeners. Anumodana, Nina. 12626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayurveda Dear Sarah, thank you for your notes on ayurveda, very interesting. In India I bought ayurveda bathpowder, it is excellent. Now, the three of bile. phlegm and winds are again also referred to in the subco I now try to translate. (better for psg only?) In the dictionary it states for pitta: the organ of the bile as well as the fluids. I appreciate your series from the Mahavamsa, what a good preparation of your trip. I hope to hear about all the places you will visit. Kind regards, Nina. op 12-04-2002 15:31 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > I wrote before about the references to bile (pitta) in the text (see end > of post )and how I believe this needs to be understood from the Ayurveda > point of view to be understood. Disorders or disturbances of the pitta > type can thus be easily observed. > > I’ve just come across B.Bodhi’s translation of the sutta and notice he > refers to bile disorders, phlegm disorders and wind disorders.and adds a > note at the back to say (p1435) “that bile (pitta), phlegm (semha), and > wind (vaata) are the three bodily humours (dosa) of Indian Ayurveda > medicine.” > “The concept of constitution (prakriti) is central to Ayurveda. > Individuals are comprised of the 3 forces (Vata, Pitta, Kapha) in unique > combinations so that no 2 persons are alike. > > “Vata controls all movement in the body such as respiration, circulation, > elimination and the flow of nerve impulses to and from the brain. Pitta > governs digestion and assimilation of food and liquids throughout the > body. Kapha governs protection through the mucus membranes and stability > through bone structure.” > 12627 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 7:02am Subject: A Question of Reference Hi, all - Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K and others believe that Abhidhamma Pitaka was, obviously with the exception of works like the Kathavatthu, created by the Buddha. I would be very interested in seeing two categories of things: (1) References to suttas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and (2) References to parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Sutta Pitaka. Are these to be found, and, if so, where? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12628 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 0:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): the discussion of HEAT and vedana Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Howard: > I understand the point being made, and it > may well be correct. But my > every intuition and experience, increasingly with > mindfulness practice, is > that craving and aversion are oriented directly > towards vedana (or the fresh > memory of vedana), and only indirectly to the > object-of-contact that led to > the vedana. The opposite view would be one that I > would have to take > completely on faith. Were I to see that view > clearly expressed in the suttas, > I would be more inclined to accept it on faith. > Do you know of any such > suttic support? > --------------------------------------------------- I think it is good that we try to verify what we hear from the references. But, 1) I don't know of a sutta corresponding to this (my knowledge of the tipitakas is limited). Anyone else know of a sutta? 2) The abhidhamma tipitaka explains the dhammas in much more explicit details than the sutta. I don't think you will find the level of details correspond exactly, but at the end, I believe the dhamma pointed by the references are the same. How one benefits from them obviously are based on accumulations. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The pain in one's arm occurs *after* the > observed assault on the arm, > i.e. after the body-door contact, at which time > the original contact has > already *ceased*, and the reaction of aversion > follows after that. So, what > "object" can be present at the time of the > aversion? If it is a memory, which > it surely must be, it is more likely to be the > more recent memory of the > pain, rather than of the hard touching which > preceded the pain. I was thinking about the pain in my arm when I am typing (because of unhealthy posture). The apparent assault is probably tension (which I didn't figure out in the last email). Thanks again for reminding me about the intricacies/speed of the dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I should have said "recognition" rather > than "cognition". > -------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the correction. kom 12629 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:57pm Subject: 5 aggss is dukkha, 5 aggs of clinging more dukkha --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... The Buddha, while alive, "had" all five > khandhas, but the Buddha was > beyond suffering. So it cannot be the khandhas per > se, that are dukkha, but > the five khandhas affected by clinging. That's as I > see it. I think it really comes down to how suffering is defined. If suffering includes painful feeling, which enlightened beings continue to experience, then I think it's fair to say that before parinibbana, the Buddha still experienced some suffering from 5 mere aggregates. If suffering only means extraneous and unecessary MENTAL suffering created due to failure to correctly perceive reality, and does not include raw physical pain, then I would agree with Howard's statement, which does seem to be the popular view among Buddhists and canonical support, i.e. 3rd noble truth. If cessation of suffering is seen from a broader scope, i.e. the end of infinite cycle of rebirth into samsara, then even physical pain is just a trifling problem and it is fair to say there is cessation of dukkha, with physical pain being negligible compared to the infinite mental and physical pain from cyclic existence. The objection I have with the commonly accepted definition of cessation of dukkha is that it gives the impression that enlightened people feel no physical pain, and walk around with a sublime smile on their face all the time. -fk 12630 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Thanks Kom, very interesting analysis. I didn't know that conceit and ditthi only arise with lobha; maybe I need to look into this and see which cetasikas go with which cittas. Also I'm a little puzzled that sanna only marks aramanas. It seems that we could be aware of everything and thereby remember everything. Also I'm still uncomfortable with the way we are handling concepts; 'thinking' has many aspects which we haven't really explored yet. I'll have to do a little more study before pursuing this. thanks, Larry 12631 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 aggss is dukkha, 5 aggs of clinging more dukkha I've been considering the "5 Khandha's" and the "5 Upadanakhandha's". Sabbe Sankhara Dukkha and the ti-lakkhana-3 characteristics of conditioned Dhamma's being Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta. The 5 Khandha's being conditioned would be Dukkha. It is Dukkha that rises, Dukkha that remains, Dukkha that departs, nothing rises else than Dukkha, and nothing ceases else than Dukkha'(S.i, 135) The material form in what has thus come to be is included in the material form aggregate affected by clinging.The feeling in what has thus come to be is included in the feeling aggregate affected by clinging. The perception in what has thus come to be is included in the perception aggregate affected by clinging. The formations in what has thus come to be is included in the formation aggregate affected by clinging. The consciousness in what has thus come to be is included in the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. Mahahatthipadopama Sutta To my understanding any rupa,vedana,sanna,sankhara or vinnana that has "thus come to be" is to be included in the 5 Upadanakhandha's, because they are "capable of being taken as objects of clinging" (and perhapes as the basis that all clinging arises,ie a condition for clinging (?)) and in the case of a Arahants mundane khandha's they can be taken as objects of clinging by others(see Atthasalini 347). And any rupa,vedana,sanna,sankhara or vinnana that has "thus come to be" is to be considered as Dukkha(sankhara-dukkhata)because they are conditioned Dhamma's There are three kinds of suffering:(1)suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhata ), (2)the suffering inherent in the formations (sankhara- dukkhata ),(3)the suffering in change (viparnama- dukkhata )(S.XLV,165;D.33). Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines by Ven.Nyanatiloka This leads to questions on the 3rd Noble Truth, but I'll wait untill I see any replies to this email, to make sure I am understanding this correctly. with Metta Stigan P.S. I have just returned from a break, so i think there were a few emails to me that I hadn't replied to, I will try to catch up soon. 12632 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi Not really from the Sutta's nor is it in ref. to parts of the Abhidhamma, but a little quote from the Vinaya, where the 3 "baskets" are mentioned together. "If, having asked for leave in regard to Suttana, she asks about Vinaya or Abhidhamma,there is an offence of expiation".:Nun's Pacittiya XCV. With Metta Stigan > --------------------------------------- > Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K and others believe that Abhidhamma Pitaka > > was, obviously with the exception of works like the Kathavatthu, created by > > the Buddha. I would be very interested in seeing two categories of things: > (1) References to suttas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and (2) References to > parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Sutta Pitaka. Are these to be found, > and, if so, where? > > With metta, > Howard > ------------------------------------------ 12633 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) <<<<< 1) The mind-door (mano-dvara), the door by which the mind-door cittas arise, is the bhavanga citta itself. 2) The mind-base / mental-base (manayatana) include all 89 cittas (vinnana khandha) 3) The mind-object-base (dhammayatana) includes 16 refined rupa, all 52 cetasikas, and nibbana. 4) The mental objects (dhammaramana), objects that can be known only through the mind-door process, includes all dhammayatana, 5 sense rupa (sense door), all manayatana, and pannati. >>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Kom, Larry and ADL group; Kom this is a very good summary, very concise. I really like it. I thought about this with help from Nina and Sarah a while back ago. I hope you do not mind me adding some more to make it really clear. Larry, let me throw this on the table first; there are 28 rupas in ultimate sense: 5 sense rupa, 16 refined rupa and 7 vissayarupas (rupas which are objects of 5-senses-conscious (color (vanna), taste (rasa), smell (kandha), sound (sadda), heat/cold (tejo) hardness/softness (pathavi) and tension (vayo)). Panca-dvara-vithi (5-sense-door-process) can know only 7 vissayarupa. The rupa has to be existed at that present moment of the 5 -sense-door process. Mano-dvara-vithi (mind-door-process) can know both dhammaramana and 7 vissayarupas. Kom has already given a very concise definition of dhammaramana. And yes, dhammaramana can be known only through the mind-door-process. The point which is somewhat hidden here is the 7 vissayarupas can also be known through mind-door-process but as a past objects. Dhammaramana as an object in mind-door-process can be past, present, future or even time-independent (refer to panatti and nibbana). Hmm, hope it's not too complicated. And let me quote a line from a book, to lighten up your head a little bit. I think it's still somewhat related to the topic. I like it a lot. "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." (from Le Petit Prince) Best wishes. Num 12634 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): mind door, sense door Howard & Kom, here are a couple of comments from 'A Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidhamma': p.130 'The life continuum is called the mind door': Unlike the first five doors, the mind door (manodvara) is not material but mental (nama), namely, the bhavanga consciousness. When an object is to be cognized by a mind-door process, the cittas belonging to that process gain access to the object solely through the mind door, without immediate dependence on any material sense faculty. Different commentaries express contrary opinions about the precise denotation of the mind door. The 'Vibhavini-Tika' states that the bhavanga citta immediately preceeding the mind-door adverting consciousness, i.e. the arrest bhavanga (bhavanga-upacheda), is the mind door. Other Abhidhamma commentaries identify the mind door as the bhavanga citta together with the mind-door adverting. However, Ledi Sayadaw and the commentary to the 'Vibhanga' both state that the entire bhavanga without distinction is the mind door. Acariya Anuruddha did not make any specifications but simply stated that the bhavanga is called the mind door. p. 152: The six types of cognitive processes are conveniently divided into two groups--the five-door process (pancadvaravithi), which includes the five processes occuring at each of the physical sense doors; and the mind-door process (manodvaravithi), which comprises all processes that occur solely at the mind door. Since the bhavanga is also the channel from which the five-door processes emerge, the latter are sometimes called mixed door processes (missaka-dvaravithi) as they involve both the mind door and a physical sense door. The processes that occur solely at the mind door are then called bare mind-door processes (suddha-manodvaravitthi) since they emerge from the bhavanga alone without the instrumentality of a physical sense door. ------------------- L: In other words all six sense processes interrupt the flow of the bhavanga and metaphorically arise in that channel but the physical sense process is initiated at the physical sense doors while the mental process is initiated at the bhavanga stream and hence called mind door. Another note: apparently what I was calling sanna in our discussion of 'touching hot stove' was actually several citta functions in the citta cognitive process, i.e. investigating, determining, and registration. Not sure how sanna or the other cetasikas fit into this process. Larry 12635 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 9:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi Num, would this be the heart-base (hadayavatthu)??? ;-) Larry ------------ "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." (from Le Petit Prince) 12636 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 6:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi, Stigan - In a message dated 4/13/02 9:08:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bodhi2500@a... writes: > > Hi > Not really from the Sutta's nor is it in ref. to parts of the Abhidhamma, > but > a little quote from the Vinaya, where the 3 "baskets" are mentioned > together. > > "If, having asked for leave in regard to Suttana, she asks about Vinaya or > Abhidhamma,there is an offence of expiation".:Nun's Pacittiya XCV. > > With Metta > Stigan ============================ Thank you. This is very interesting. With metta, Howard > > > --------------------------------------- > > Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K and others believe that Abhidhamma > Pitaka > > > > was, obviously with the exception of works like the Kathavatthu, created > by > > > > the Buddha. I would be very interested in seeing two categories of > things: > > (1) References to suttas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and (2) References to > > parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Sutta Pitaka. Are these to be > found, > > and, if so, where? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12637 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 6:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): mind door, sense door Hi, Larry (and Kom) - Thanks for the following. It has wonderful detail. Your mention of "Other Abhidhamma commentaries identify the mind door as the bhavanga citta together with the mind-door adverting." is what makes most sense to me in all of this. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/13/02 11:53:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard & Kom, > here are a couple of comments from 'A Comprehensive Manual Of > Abhidhamma': > > p.130 'The life continuum is called the mind door': Unlike the first > five doors, the mind door (manodvara) is not material but mental (nama), > namely, the bhavanga consciousness. When an object is to be cognized by > a mind-door process, the cittas belonging to that process gain access to > the object solely through the mind door, without immediate dependence on > any material sense faculty. > > Different commentaries express contrary opinions about the precise > denotation of the mind door. The 'Vibhavini-Tika' states that the > bhavanga citta immediately preceeding the mind-door adverting > consciousness, i.e. the arrest bhavanga (bhavanga-upacheda), is the mind > door. Other Abhidhamma commentaries identify the mind door as the > bhavanga citta together with the mind-door adverting. However, Ledi > Sayadaw and the commentary to the 'Vibhanga' both state that the entire > bhavanga without distinction is the mind door. Acariya Anuruddha did not > make any specifications but simply stated that the bhavanga is called > the mind door. > > p. 152: The six types of cognitive processes are conveniently divided > into two groups--the five-door process (pancadvaravithi), which includes > the five processes occuring at each of the physical sense doors; and the > mind-door process (manodvaravithi), which comprises all processes that > occur solely at the mind door. Since the bhavanga is also the channel > from which the five-door processes emerge, the latter are sometimes > called mixed door processes (missaka-dvaravithi) as they involve both > the mind door and a physical sense door. The processes that occur solely > at the mind door are then called bare mind-door processes > (suddha-manodvaravitthi) since they emerge from the bhavanga alone > without the instrumentality of a physical sense door. > ------------------- > > L: In other words all six sense processes interrupt the flow of the > bhavanga and metaphorically arise in that channel but the physical sense > process is initiated at the physical sense doors while the mental > process is initiated at the bhavanga stream and hence called mind door. > > Another note: apparently what I was calling sanna in our discussion of > 'touching hot stove' was actually several citta functions in the citta > cognitive process, i.e. investigating, determining, and registration. > Not sure how sanna or the other cetasikas fit into this process. > > Larry > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12638 From: Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 7:00pm Subject: Heart Base I have a question for this group. As I understand it, Abhidhamma claims that the physical heart is the base for mind consciousness. (Not the brain.) Does anyone have an explanation for what appears to be a gross error on the part of the Abhidhamma compilers? Thanks for whatever insights you might have. TG 12639 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18): mind door, sense door Dear Larry, Much appreciation for the post. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > > Howard & Kom, > here are a couple of comments from 'A > Comprehensive Manual Of > Abhidhamma': 12640 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Doors - mind door, sense door Larry Thanks for the very apposite quote from CMA. I would just like to quote a little more extensively from the same passage, as it seems to address 1 or 2 specific questions raised in earlier posts. The first of these is, what exactly is meant by the function of being a door? From the passage quoted below it seems that 'door' is to be understood in the metaphorical sense of being the *medium by which the relevant consciousness interacts with the objective world*, or by which *citta and cetasikas go out to meet the object and by which objects enter into range of the citta and cetasikas*. The second one is, how can bhavanga citta be said to perform this function when its 'normal' function is so markedly different? The key here, I think, is the fact that bhavanga citta is said to arise continuously throughout every moment of our lives except when it is interrupted by a sense- or mind-door process (and so there are bhavanga citta arising even now 'in between' the apparently continuous stream of sense- and mind-door processes of which we are conscious). In the case of a sense-door process, this interruption of the bhavanga citta requires the contemporaneous arising of a particular rupa in conjunction with the cittas of the sense-door process (and, significantly, this rupa is conditioned by kamma, so its arising at any given moment cannot be taken for granted). In the mind-door process, however, there is no such rupa and so it is the bhavanga citta itself that is said (metaphorically) to be the 'door'. It is also useful to bear in mind that these ways of classifying dhammas (as doors, as bases, as elements, etc.) are merely different ways of slicing things so that we can see dhammas from different angles. What is helpful for one person may not have any particular appeal to another, but in my experience even if we don’t find something particularly meaningful at first it is usually well worth keeping it in mind and coming back to it from time to time. Jon A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Ch III Compendium of Doors (dvaarasangaha) #12 - Text "In the compendium of doors, there are six doors, namely: eye door, ear door, nose door, tongue door, body door, and mind door. "Therein, the eye itself is the eye door; and so for the ear door and the others. But the life-continuum is called the mind door." #12 - Guide [1/. In what sense 'door'] "The term "door" ('dvaara') is used metaphorically in the Abhidhamma to denote the media through which the mind interacts with the objective world. … Six doors of cognition are recognized: the six sense doors by which the citta and cetasikas go out to meet the object and by which objects enter into range of the citta and cetasikas." [2/. Doors for sense-door processes] "Five of the doors are material phenomena ('ruupa'), namely, the sensitive matter ('pasaadaruupa') in each of the five sense organs. Each of these serves as a door by which the citta and cetasikas occurring in a cognitive process gain access to their object, and by which the object becomes accessible to the cittas and cetasikas. "Eye-sensitivity is the door for the cittas belonging to an eye-door process, enabling them to cognize visible forms through the eye. The same holds for the other sensitivities of the sense organs in relation to their respective processes and objects." [3/. Door for mind-door process] "Unlike the first five doors, the mind door ('manodvaara') is not material but mental ('naama'), namely, the bhavanga consciousness. When an object is to be cognized by a mind-door process, the cittas belonging to that process gain access to the object solely through the mind door, **without immediate dependence on any material sense faculty**." --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Howard & Kom, > here are a couple of comments from 'A Comprehensive Manual Of > Abhidhamma': > > p.130 'The life continuum is called the mind door': Unlike the first > five doors, the mind door (manodvara) is not material but mental (nama), > namely, the bhavanga consciousness. When an object is to be cognized by > a mind-door process, the cittas belonging to that process gain access to > the object solely through the mind door, without immediate dependence on > any material sense faculty. > > Different commentaries express contrary opinions about the precise > denotation of the mind door. The 'Vibhavini-Tika' states that the > bhavanga citta immediately preceeding the mind-door adverting > consciousness, i.e. the arrest bhavanga (bhavanga-upacheda), is the mind > door. Other Abhidhamma commentaries identify the mind door as the > bhavanga citta together with the mind-door adverting. However, Ledi > Sayadaw and the commentary to the 'Vibhanga' both state that the entire > bhavanga without distinction is the mind door. Acariya Anuruddha did not > make any specifications but simply stated that the bhavanga is called > the mind door. > > p. 152: The six types of cognitive processes are conveniently divided > into two groups--the five-door process (pancadvaravithi), which includes > the five processes occuring at each of the physical sense doors; and the > mind-door process (manodvaravithi), which comprises all processes that > occur solely at the mind door. Since the bhavanga is also the channel > from which the five-door processes emerge, the latter are sometimes > called mixed door processes (missaka-dvaravithi) as they involve both > the mind door and a physical sense door. The processes that occur solely > at the mind door are then called bare mind-door processes > (suddha-manodvaravitthi) since they emerge from the bhavanga alone > without the instrumentality of a physical sense door. > ------------------- > > L: In other words all six sense processes interrupt the flow of the > bhavanga and metaphorically arise in that channel but the physical sense > process is initiated at the physical sense doors while the mental > process is initiated at the bhavanga stream and hence called mind door. > > Another note: apparently what I was calling sanna in our discussion of > 'touching hot stove' was actually several citta functions in the citta > cognitive process, i.e. investigating, determining, and registration. > Not sure how sanna or the other cetasikas fit into this process. > > Larry 12641 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 1:09am Subject: Re: Heart Base Hi TG, This is an interesting question, and I hope someone more knowledgeable than I has an answer. In the meantime, here are a few scattered references I managed to locate. Ajahn Brams has an mp3 talk on "Buddhism and Science" in which he quotes an instance of a person with no discernible brain achieving university level results. I have never downloaded this talk, and it is not in text form, but was mentioned on another list in a discussion about anencephalic babies (born with no brain). http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/audio.html Dict. meaning: "hadaya-vatthu: 'heart as physical base' of mental life. The heart, according to the commentaries as well as to the general Buddhist tradition, forms the physical base (vatthu) of consciousness In the canonical texts, however, even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, no such base is ever localized, a fact which seems to have first been discovered by Shwe Zan Aung (Compendium of Philosophy, pp. 277ff.). In the Patth. we find repeatedly only the passage: "That material thing based on which mind-element and mind-consciousness element function" (yam rúpam nissáya manodhátu ca mano-viññána-dhátu ca vattanti, tam rúpam)." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_h.htm "The Mind-base is ordinarily referred to as heart-base (hadaya- vatthu). The Mind-base is clearly stated in the Vibhanga, the second treatise of the Abhidhamma, to be non-material, see the couplet section of Interrogation and Analysis of the Bases (para 171, section 2.)" http://www.palikanon.com/english/intro-abhidhamma/chapter_ii.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have a question for this group. As I understand it, Abhidhamma claims that > the physical heart is the base for mind consciousness. (Not the brain.) > Does anyone have an explanation for what appears to be a gross error on the > part of the Abhidhamma compilers? > > Thanks for whatever insights you might have. > > TG 12642 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > We also need to keep in mind that the knowledge being developed by insight > > is > > knowledge of individual dhammas, not of the whole mass of dhammas > > collectively. > > So when we talk about the conditioned nature of dhammas being seen, we > > refer > > in fact to conditionality as a quality of an individual dhamma that is the > > object of insight, and likewise with the 3 characteristics. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Conditionality is a relation, Jon, not a property. Dhammas are > conditionally arisen. This cannot be seen by staring at individual dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Thanks for this, Howard. I think I can see where some confusion may have crept in. 'Conditionality' can indeed be used to describe a particular relation. However, it can also be used to describe the quality of being formed or conditioned, in the sense of 'sankhara/sankhata'. (See passage from Buddhist Dictionary pasted below.) One of the meanings of 'sankhara dhamma' is dhammas that are formed or conditioned. And the term 'sankhata' has a similar meaning, usually I think used in apposition to the term 'asankhata' as an epithet for nibbana. It is in this sense of 'conditionality' that I said in my earlier post: > when we talk about the conditioned nature of dhammas being seen, we refer > in fact to conditionality as a quality of an individual dhamma that is the > object of insight I don’t know if you would find this proposition easier to accept in the light of these comments. [As for 'staring at dhammas', I'm pleased to see I've had a promotion from being a mere intellectualiser, then ;-)). But I must say I'm puzzled at your choice of phrase here, Howard -- I thought 'staring at dhammas' was what FSM was all about, no? ;-)) ]. Jon Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy) [The **emphasis** is mine] Sankhaara "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished. "(I) To its most frequent usages (see following 1-4) the general term 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the context. This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to **the passive state of 'having been formed'** or to both. … "4. It occurs further in the sense of **anything formed (sankhata) and conditioned**, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhaara aniccaa ... dukkhaa)." Sankhata "The 'formed', i.e. anything **originated or conditioned**, comprises all phenomena of existence." Asankhata "The 'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the **beyond of all becoming and conditionality**." 12643 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K and others believe that Abhidhamma Pitaka > was, obviously with the exception of works like the Kathavatthu, created by > the Buddha. I would be very interested in seeing two categories of things: > (1) References to suttas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and (2) References to > parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Sutta Pitaka. Are these to be found, > and, if so, where? > > With metta, > Howard There are numerous cross-references in the Abhidhamma pitaka to specific passages in the Suttanta pitaka, but not the other way around (as far as I know). However, I would not be too hasty to jump to any 'obvious' conclusion from this. As discussed in previous posts, the suttas themselves include a number of 'abhidhamma' references (i.e., teachings given in terms of paramattha dhammas rather than the more usual conventional language). These references were what was judged appropriate and sufficient for the particular audience at the time. There would have been no point in cross-referring to another body of teachings. In general terms, the abhidhamma pitaka expounds on and amplifies the material contained in the suttas and not vice versa, so you would not expect to find in the suttas elaboration on the abhidhamma. The suttas were delivered to individuals and were tailored to the circumstances of that particular occasion, whereas the abhidhamma was given as a complete body of teaching, more like a source of reference (as far as the human plane is concerned). Just 1 or 2 random thoughts. Jon 12644 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 aggss is dukkha, 5 aggs of clinging more dukkha Frank You make some good points here. --- frank kuan wrote: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... The Buddha, while alive, "had" all five > > khandhas, but the Buddha was > > beyond suffering. So it cannot be the khandhas per > > se, that are dukkha, but > > the five khandhas affected by clinging. That's as I > > see it. > > > I think it really comes down to how suffering is > defined. If suffering includes painful feeling, which > enlightened beings continue to experience, then I > think it's fair to say that before parinibbana, the > Buddha still experienced some suffering from 5 mere > aggregates. > If suffering only means extraneous and unecessary > MENTAL suffering created due to failure to correctly > perceive reality, and does not include raw physical > pain, then I would agree with Howard's statement, > which does seem to be the popular view among Buddhists > and canonical support, i.e. 3rd noble truth. > If cessation of suffering is seen from a broader > scope, i.e. the end of infinite cycle of rebirth into > samsara, then even physical pain is just a trifling > problem and it is fair to say there is cessation of > dukkha, with physical pain being negligible compared > to the infinite mental and physical pain from cyclic > existence. > > The objection I have with the commonly accepted > definition of cessation of dukkha is that it gives the > impression that enlightened people feel no physical > pain, and walk around with a sublime smile on their > face all the time. > > -fk I would just like to add something on khandhas vs. upadhana-khandhas. Upadana-khandhas are often equated with the khandhas of the arahant. I believe this is not quite correct. As far as I understand the texts (and speaking from memory), the upadana-khandhas are those khandhas that are 'subject to clinging'. Now, while it's true that an arahant has no more clinging, his khandhas (or at least some of them) can be the object of clinging -- the clinging of another, of course, not of the arahant himself. The only khandhas that are not capable of being the object of clinging are those associated with nibbana, namely, the lokuttara citta and the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. This is because nibbana and lokuttara citta are beyond the comprehension of one who has not yet attained the first stage of enlightenment. (But there could of course be clinging to a *concept of* nibbana/lokuttara citta). Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Jon 12645 From: Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Hi, Jon - My point is the following: All the dhammas we are mindful of are conditioned dhammas. How do we *see* their being conditioned by examining them? I say that we do *not* see their being conditioned by examining them individually but rather by seeing their arising dependently, which takes one *beyond* looking at individual dhammas. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/14/02 4:49:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > We also need to keep in mind that the knowledge being developed by > insight > > > is > > > knowledge of individual dhammas, not of the whole mass of dhammas > > > collectively. > > > So when we talk about the conditioned nature of dhammas being seen, we > > > refer > > > in fact to conditionality as a quality of an individual dhamma that is > the > > > object of insight, and likewise with the 3 characteristics. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Conditionality is a relation, Jon, not a property. Dhammas are > > conditionally arisen. This cannot be seen by staring at individual > dhammas. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Howard. I think I can see where some confusion may have > crept > in. > > 'Conditionality' can indeed be used to describe a particular relation. > However, it can also be used to describe the quality of being formed or > conditioned, in the sense of 'sankhara/sankhata'. (See passage from > Buddhist > Dictionary pasted below.) > > One of the meanings of 'sankhara dhamma' is dhammas that are formed or > conditioned. And the term 'sankhata' has a similar meaning, usually I > think > used in apposition to the term 'asankhata' as an epithet for nibbana. > > It is in this sense of 'conditionality' that I said in my earlier post: > > when we talk about the conditioned nature of dhammas being seen, we refer > > in fact to conditionality as a quality of an individual dhamma that is > the > > object of insight > > I don’t know if you would find this proposition easier to accept in the > light > of these comments. > > [As for 'staring at dhammas', I'm pleased to see I've had a promotion from > being a mere intellectualiser, then ;-)). But I must say I'm puzzled at > your > choice of phrase here, Howard -- I thought 'staring at dhammas' was what > FSM > was all about, no? ;-)) ]. > > Jon > > Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy) > [The **emphasis** is mine] > > Sankhaara > "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, > which > should be carefully distinguished. > "(I) To its most frequent usages (see following 1-4) the general term > 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the > context. > This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to **the passive state > of > 'having been formed'** or to both. > … > "4. It occurs further in the sense of **anything formed (sankhata) and > conditioned**, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena > of > existence. > This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are > impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhaara aniccaa ... > dukkhaa)." > > Sankhata > "The 'formed', i.e. anything **originated or conditioned**, comprises all > phenomena of existence." > > Asankhata > "The 'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the > **beyond of all becoming and conditionality**." > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12646 From: Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/14/02 4:53:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K and others believe that Abhidhamma > Pitaka > > was, obviously with the exception of works like the Kathavatthu, created > by > > the Buddha. I would be very interested in seeing two categories of > things: > > (1) References to suttas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and (2) References to > > parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Sutta Pitaka. Are these to be > found, > > and, if so, where? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > There are numerous cross-references in the Abhidhamma pitaka to specific > passages in the Suttanta pitaka, but not the other way around (as far as I > know). However, I would not be too hasty to jump to any 'obvious' > conclusion > from this. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I wouldn't want to be hasty either. And I'm not prepared by any means to settle on an absolute conclusion. But I *would* expect to see, among the enormous number of suttas, *some* references to the Abhidhamma Pitaka if that were created by the Buddha. I did find Stigan's mention of a reference to the Abhidhamma in the Vinaya to be quite interesting. Do you (or does anyone here) know the vintage of that Vinaya reference? ------------------------------------------------- > > As discussed in previous posts, the suttas themselves include a number of > 'abhidhamma' references (i.e., teachings given in terms of paramattha > dhammas > rather than the more usual conventional language). These references were > what > was judged appropriate and sufficient for the particular audience at the > time. > There would have been no point in cross-referring to another body of > teachings. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the foregoing expresses a view, a view which already presupposes the very status of the Abhidhamma Pitaka that is being discussed. If the suttas are actually what the Buddha taught, and the Abhidhamma Pitaka is a later development which expands on the detail of the content of the suttas, then it is a kind of "back reference" to call content of the suttas Abhidhammic. In any case, the Buddha taught the Dhamma in the suttas, which is quite good enough. Also, by "Abhidhamma references" in the suttas, I don't mean content similar to content to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I mean references in the suttas to *that basket* called the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or to well definable parts of that basket, especially the two main works of analysis and synthesis. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > In general terms, the abhidhamma pitaka expounds on and amplifies the > material > contained in the suttas and not vice versa, so you would not expect to find > in > the suttas elaboration on the abhidhamma. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not looking for elaboration, merely references - such as " Bhikkhus, finer detail about the influence of dhammas on dhammas can be found in the subtle Patthana teachings which I have given. My lieutenant, Sariputta, will speak of this to those of you for whom this will be useful." ------------------------------------------------------------- > > The suttas were delivered to individuals and were tailored to the > circumstances > of that particular occasion, whereas the abhidhamma was given as a complete > body of teaching, more like a source of reference (as far as the human > plane is > concerned). > > Just 1 or 2 random thoughts. > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12647 From: Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart Base Hi Christine Thanks for all the information on the heart base. I will take a look at those sources. I was under the impression that the heart base was actually referred to in the Abhidhamma Pitaka but apparantly I'm wrong. I've only read the Vibhanga all the way through directly and I wasn't particularly looking for it. Perhaps it is in the commentaries to Dhammasanghini or Vibhanga. I'm pretty sure it does show up in the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha Sangaha. In the latter two cases, I doubt they would have thrown it in unless they had something "canonical" to draw from. Thanks again. TG 12648 From: Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi Howard, just a thought on tipitaka references. There was no tipitaka during the Buddha's life; there probably was a rudimentary vinaya code but no sutta pitaka, so any references to 'tipitaka' had to be added to what was _remembered_. Larry 12649 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:45pm Subject: Re: Heart Base Dear TG, These are some old posts that might have something relevant: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5395 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5410 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5470 best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have a question for this group. As I understand it, Abhidhamma claims that > the physical heart is the base for mind consciousness. (Not the brain.) > Does anyone have an explanation for what appears to be a gross error on the > part of the Abhidhamma compilers? > > Thanks for whatever insights you might have. > > TG > > > 12650 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart Base http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL08.html 12651 From: Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/14/02 10:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, just a thought on tipitaka references. There was no tipitaka > during the Buddha's life; there probably was a rudimentary vinaya code > but no sutta pitaka, so any references to 'tipitaka' had to be added to > what was _remembered_. > > Larry > > ======================== Yes, you're right. No Tipitaka. However, wouldn't there be some references by him, recorded in the suttas, to "more precise" or "more detailed" teaching? If the Abhidhamma teachings were created by the Buddha during his lifetime, would there not have been some mention of them in some of the teachings recorded in the suttas? Moreover, though no Tipitaka, per se, existed during the Buddha's lifetime, surely the sutta teachings of the Buddha were told and retold by Bhikkhus during the 45 years of the Buddha's teaching his Dhamma, and they would have had names to refer to them by. Likewise, the Abhidhammic teachings, supposedly created by the Buddha and later recorded in the Abhidhamma Pitaka would have had to have had names to refer to and for memorization purposes. The point is that it just doesn't seem to make sense that the Abhidhamma was created by the Buddha, himself. Where is the evidence? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12652 From: Date: Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi Howard A few more quotes where the word "Abhidhamma" occur's in the Sutta's "Here friend Sariputta,two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the Abhidhamma and they question each other,and being questioned by the other answers without foundering,and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma.:Mahagosinga sutta,32 Majjhima Nikaya. "While you are training in concord, with mutual appreciation,without disputing,two bhikkhus might differ about the Abhidhamma: Kinti Sutta 103 Majjhima Nikaya "A forest dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the Abhidhamma and the Abhivinaya". Gulissani Sutta,69 Majjhima Nikaya With Metta Stigan 12653 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (Ken H., Eric, Howard) Hi Rob Ep > I agree that the ideal of the jhanas as part of Right Concentration is > to 'burn up' the defilements through the meditative power of the jhanas. I also agree that any form of suppression is not really 'Right Concentration'. In fact I don't think I said that it was, but I can understand how it might seem like I was saying this. If you look at the quote from me that you have copied above, you will not see any reference to 'suppression' being a part of 'Right Concentration' k: Oops I sorry to have misinterpret you. "Etymology of Jhana > The great Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa traces the Pali word "jhana" > (Skt. dhyana) to two verbal forms. One, the etymologically correct derivation,> is the verb jhayati, meaning to think or meditate; the other is a more playful derivation, intended to illuminate its function rather than its verbal source, from the verb jhapeti meaning to burn up. He explains: "It burns up opposing states, thus it is jhana" (Vin.A. i, 116), the purport being that jhana "burns up" or destroys the mental defilements preventing the developing the development of serenity and insight." k: hmm I not comfortable with the word "burn up". Was it the real intention of this word jhana. Could mental defilement be burn up?. These are just my personal doubts. Anywhere, I am not an expert on this, so I could not contribute fruitfully this issue. Kind regards Ken O 12654 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Howard, > > I think I will add some random information here, not > addressing your concern (as Robert may have done that). > > 1) I think it is important to clearly separate concept from > realities from the standpoint that I believe that only > realities can be objects of satipatthana. I can keep > thinking by conventional observation (non-satipathana) that > "feeling is impermanent". Although this thinking of > conceptual thought may be kusala, it doesn't ultimately lead > to nibbana until there is sati and panna rising to realize > the actual chararacteristics of feeling (and eventually, the > impermanence of feeling). > From the detailed explanation of the different suttas given > by the abhiddhamma, separating the two is one of the most > essential fundamental first step because of the reason > above. A person who doesn't understand the separation > between the two doesn't usually understand why someone would > say that there is no person and there is no being (with all > the caveats that Robert has given). The person also cannot > develop satipatthana as they do not know what is/what isn't > satipatthana (as one cannot develop jhana if one doesn't > know the actual differences between kusala and akusala). k: Could u kindly provide commentaries that support that only reality is the object of satipatthana. Kind regards Ken O 12655 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Coming Together of Conditions Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > My point is the following: All the dhammas we are mindful of are > conditioned dhammas. How do we *see* their being conditioned by examining > them? I say that we do *not* see their being conditioned by examining them > individually but rather by seeing their arising dependently, which takes one > *beyond* looking at individual dhammas. > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for this concise summary of your thoughts on this area. Yes, I do understand what you have been saying. I'm just not sure why you feel that the conditioned nature of a dhamma cannot be seen by the panna that has the dhamma as its object. Jon 12656 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base TG Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for bringing up this interesting topic. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have a question for this group. As I understand it, Abhidhamma claims that > > the physical heart is the base for mind consciousness. (Not the brain.) > Does anyone have an explanation for what appears to be a gross error on the > part of the Abhidhamma compilers? > > Thanks for whatever insights you might have. No insights here, but just a question and a comment. You suggest that the brain is the obvious candidate for the base of mind consciousness. I would be interested to know what you base this on -- general scientific knowledge or personal observation/experience? A point to consider along the way. 'Mind consciousness' must include not only 'brain activity' of the thinking type but also the experience of the data that appears at the various sense doors. So, for example, it includes the experiencing of the hardness that appears at the soles of the feet as one walks across the floor. Can we say that the brain is a more likely base for this moment of consciousness than, say, the heart? Jon 12657 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi, Stigan - In a message dated 4/15/02 2:52:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bodhi2500@a... writes: > Hi Howard > A few more quotes where the word "Abhidhamma" occur's in > the > Sutta's > > "Here friend Sariputta,two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the Abhidhamma and > they question each other,and being questioned by the other answers without > foundering,and their talk rolls on in accordance with the > Dhamma.:Mahagosinga > sutta,32 Majjhima Nikaya. > > "While you are training in concord, with mutual appreciation,without > disputing,two bhikkhus might differ about the Abhidhamma: Kinti Sutta 103 > Majjhima Nikaya > > "A forest dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the Abhidhamma and the > Abhivinaya". Gulissani Sutta,69 Majjhima Nikaya > > With Metta > Stigan > > ========================== Once again you have done something marvelous! I looked for these suttas on ATI, and not finding them there I went directly to my copy of "The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha" by Bhikkus ~Nanamoli and Bodhi. All three of your references are there and exactly as you describe them. Moreover, I note two matters of interest: 1) The Mahagosinga and Gulissani Suttas both involve Sariputta in an important way, which is significant inasmuch as Sariputta is traditionally associated with the Abhidhamma, and 2) The Kinti Sutta's mention of Abhidhamma immediately follows, and is alleged to refer to, the LIST (!) of 37 requisites for enlightenment detailed in the previous paragraph. I find this to be direct evidence that Abhidhamma is referred to in the suttas, associated there with Sariputta, and involving detailed lists. This certainly suggests that, at the very least, the seeds of what was to become the Abhidhamma Pitaka were in place during the lifetime of the Buddha. Perhaps much more was already in place. In any case, what you have provided here, Stigan, is certainly important food for thought. With metta, Howard P.S. To Sarah, Jon, and Stigan: There has been some discussion of Abhidhamma, and its origins, on another list. I wish to request that I combine a few of the relevant DSG posts on this, including the body of this current post of mine, into a single post which I will send to that other list. I will remove names of posters other than mine if it is wished. Would this be okay? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12658 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Dear Howard and All, --- upasaka@a... wrote: >........ But I *would* expect to see, among > the > enormous number of suttas, *some* references to the Abhidhamma Pitaka if > that > were created by the Buddha. ========================= I’ve been adding notes here when I’ve had time for the last 2 or 3 days (some of which are also for the benefit of others newer to dsg, so please be patient;-)). In the meantime, I’ve appreciated seeing other comments and sutta references by Stigan. Most my comments in this post will be from the Atthasalini which has a very useful introductory discourse on just the concerns and issues raised by Howard. We read in this discourse that: “The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book was also determined by him. In this way the elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law. Such being the case, was the elder the very first to understand the Abhidhamma? Nay, it was the supreme Buddha who first understood the Abhidhamma....” ***** The Great Book here refers to the Pattana, the last Abhidhamma text. We read in the Atthasalini how “Rays of six colours -indigo, golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling - issued from the Teacher’s body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Law by his omniscience which had found such opportunity” when he “began to contemplate the twenty-four universal causal relations of condition, of presentation, and so on....” ***** Often in the suttas too, we read many references to the Buddha’s Teachings as explained by his key disciples such as in the Nakulipita Sutta (recently discussed on dsg) where the words were elaborated by Sariputta. In the Atthasalini, it gives the following example from DN: “ ‘Bhikkhus, learned is Mahakaccana, profoundly wise is Mahakaccana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have answered exactly as he has done.’ Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole suttanta became the word of the Buddha. And it is the same with the suttas expounded by Ananda and others.” ***** Some time ago, in the Series on the Bahiranidana (commentary to the Vinaya), in posts: 9464, 9495, 9673, 9810, 9961,10143, 10310, (under Vinaya - commentary to) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I tried to show how Buddhagosa traced the Abhidhamma to the 1st Council with many references from the Vinaya itself. He then traced the history of the dhamma-vinaya to the 3 councils and finally to the Vinaya recital in Sri lanka under Mahinda, showing that the Bhikkhus “again rehearsed the entire Dhamma and the Vinaya...even in the same manner as it was rehearsed by the elder Mahakassapa” (Smp, commentary to Vinaya, 38) ***** I mentioned how at the time of the 1st council, the Tipitaka (as we know it) was referred to as Dhamma-Vinaya. I believe in suttas such as the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha instructed the bhikkhus to take the ‘dhamma-vinaya’ as their Teacher after he passed away. In the series, I also wrote about how the Khudakka Nikaya included in the recital includes the Abhidhamma texts. In the Atthasalini, we read: “Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? the whole of the Vinaya-Pitaka, Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and the fifteen divisions.....beginning with Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, all the remaining words of the Buddha, excluding the four Nikayas....” In both the Bahiranidana and the Atthasalini, detail is given of the explanation in detail of how the 84,000 units of dhamma-vinaya text is formed and this includes how: “Thus as rehearsed at the council, the Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification, Veyyakarana by part classification and constitutes two or three thousand untis of text by the classification of textual units” and “In the Abhidhamma each trinal or dual classification, as well as each clasification of conscious intervals, forms one unit of text.” ***** Reference is also made to to these 84,000 units of dhamma in the Vinaya itself. and as I also mentioned, there are also references to the Abhidhamma in the 1st council in the abhidhamma texts themselves(Vibhanga)and in texts of Mahayana schools . Furthermore, from the Atthasalini, we read about references to the Abhidhamma in the Vianaya and Suttanta: “for it has been said by the Buddha (Vin, 1V,344): “If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no offence in him,” (Again, in the Bhikkhuni Vibhanga Vin,1V,344) “Abhikkhuni is guilty of a minor offence) if she questions on the Abhidhamma or Vinaya after getting permission (to question) on the Suttanta, or on the Suttanta or Vinaya after getting permission (to question) on the Abhidhamma, or on the suttanta or Abhidhamma after getting permission (to question) on the Vinaya.”...... The Atthasalini continues: “The Mahagosinga sutta (MN 1, 218) is even stronger authority (to show that the Abhidhamma is the Buddha’s word). for therein when Sariputta, the Generaliisimo of the law, approached the Teacer to inform him of the reciprocal questions and answers that took place between Mahamoggallana and himself, and told how the former had answered (the master said) ‘Brother Sariputta, in the religion the talk of two bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering, is in accord with the Dhamma. Now such a bhikkhu, brother Sariputta, might enhance the beauty of the Gosinga Sala Forest. The Teacher, far from saying that bhikkus, who knew Abhidhamma, were outside his religion, lifted his drum-like neck and filling (with breath) his mouth, fraught as the full-moon with blessings, emitted his godlike voice,congratulating Moggallana thus: ‘Well done, well done, Sariputta! One should answer rightly as Moggallana has done; Moggallana is indeed a preacher of the dhamma.’ “ ***** We read further in the Atthasalini that “tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma”..”He who prohibits (the teaching of ) abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher’s knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be excommunicated, or admonished (see Vin11,7) or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of food”. ***** The most controversial Abhidhamma text of all is the Kathavatthu. In the Atthasalini we read that even the Kathavatthu was envisaged by the Buddha himself. We read “Thus in teaching the seven books, when he came to the Kathavatthu the Buddha laid down the table of contents in the way mentioned above.. In doing so he foresaw that 218 years after his death, Tissa, Moggsali’s son, seated in the midst of 1000 bhikkhus, would elaborate the Kathavatthu as is stated above. And Tisa, Moggali’s son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the teacher. hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha. thus the Abhidhamma consists of seven books inclusive of the Kathavatthu.” ***** We may wonder why the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma in the Tavatimsa realm after contemplating it for 7 days. In the Atthasalini it explains how Ananda, “a disciple of such surpassing mindfulness, intellgence and fortitude would not be able to finish learning in a thousand years the sermons preached by the Teacher in three months” as it was so “infinite and immeasurable” . There are also references to suttas which act as introductions to the Abhidhamma, but this post has become long enough, so I’d better stop but, I’d like to at least recommend (in addition to the Atthasalini): 1. correspondence by Rob K and others in Useful Posts under ‘Abhidhamma, its origins” http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 2. A helpful article by Ven Nyanaponika at entitled “The Evaluation of Abhidhamma and the Question of its Authenticity at: http://www.buddhanet.net/abhidh09.htm 3.An excellent article by Ven Sitagu Sayadaw entitled “Abhidhamma and Vipassana” at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ This is a discussion topic which recurs regularly and I find it very helpful to consider it a little more carefully each time. I’m sure doubts about the authenticity will not be put to rest lightly, but hopefully some of these comments will be of some use. Sarah ============================ 12659 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Thank you for this, Sarah. I will check the web references. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/15/02 10:28:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Dear Howard and All, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >........ But I *would* expect to see, among > > the > > enormous number of suttas, *some* references to the Abhidhamma Pitaka if > > that > > were created by the Buddha. > ========================= > > I’ve been adding notes here when I’ve had time for the last 2 or 3 days > (some of which are also for the benefit of others newer to dsg, so please > be patient;-)). In the meantime, I’ve appreciated seeing other comments > and sutta references by Stigan. Most my comments in this post will be from > the Atthasalini which has a very useful introductory discourse on just the > concerns and issues raised by Howard. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12660 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 7:50am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, to Suan: To Nina And Sarah Dear Nina And Sarah How are you? Thank you for your kind comments on the way I see Abhidhamma. As always, it has its share of dissenters, though. When the people did not make effort to srudy Abhidhamma, they had no chance of comparing it with Suttam Pitaka. Without such comparative reading, they had no chance of recognizing segments of Abhidhamma in each Suttam. So the vicious circle of unawareness goes on and on. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Suan, thank you for your excellent post on Abhidhamma. You explained > very clearly that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time. Ultimate > realities, as taught in the Abhidhamma, are the objects of the development > of right understanding that leads to the eradication of defilements, and > only Buddhas teach Abhidhamma. I like the way you explain that in the > Suttanta there is spoonfeeding of Abhidhamma, depending on the capacity of > understanding of the listeners. Anumodana, > Nina. 12661 From: goglerr Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Dear Jon, TG and all, Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. In the Comp. Manual of Adhm (B. Bodhi) in the third chapter (Compedium of Miscellaneous) under the heading of Compedium of Bases) pg 144-148 especially the chart at pg147 – they detailed out certain consciousness always arise from the heart and other consciousness arise sometimes from the heart and still some may not arise at all from the heart. Interesting!!! In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled…………. Goglerr --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > TG > > Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for bringing up this interesting topic. > > --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have a question for this group. As I > understand it, Abhidhamma claims that > > > > the physical heart is the base for mind consciousness. (Not the brain.) > > Does anyone have an explanation for what appears to be a gross error on the > > part of the Abhidhamma compilers? > > > > Thanks for whatever insights you might have. > > No insights here, but just a question and a comment. > > You suggest that the brain is the obvious candidate for the base of mind > consciousness. I would be interested to know what you base this on -- general > scientific knowledge or personal observation/experience? > > A point to consider along the way. 'Mind consciousness' must include not only > 'brain activity' of the thinking type but also the experience of the data that > appears at the various sense doors. So, for example, it includes the > experiencing of the hardness that appears at the soles of the feet as one walks > across the floor. Can we say that the brain is a more likely base for this > moment of consciousness than, say, the heart? > > Jon > > > 12662 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 7:58am Subject: A Profound Example Of Abhidhamma In A Suttam Dear Dhamma Friends The following is a sequel to Abhidhamma in Suttams. Hope it stimulates your intellect and brain-storming as the first one. With regards, Suan --------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Dear Joyce How are you? You wrote: "....she really writes so clearly (for a woman)...how do you know she is a "she"....shoot...just because there is a "Su" ....blah blah. Laugh." When I read the above line (SMILE), I recalled Cuulavedalla Suttam from Muulapannaasa, in Majjimanikaaya. Do you know why? Cuulavedalla Suttam is the work of Dhammadinnaa, a bhikkhunii (a female monk disciple of the Buddha). And, surprise! surprise! Cuulavedalla SUTTAM is an extremely profound and important example of Abhidhamma. There are important insights in this Suttam for a student of Abhidhamma. Dhammadinnaa taught this Suttam to a lay man called Visaakho. Later, Visaakho met and told the Buddha that Dhammadinnaa had answered his questions through this Suttam. Guess what? The Buddha replied to Visaakho that, if he had asked him those same questions, he, the Buddha, would have given the same answers. In other words, the Buddha regarded Cuulavedalla Suttam as his own teaching. The Buddha approved what has been taught by Dhammadinnaa, which is Abhidhamma, which is Suttam. What I am getting at is that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma in the Suttams. There is no difference between Suttam Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka in the way of subject matter - the same dhammas for achieving the highest transformation, namely, awakening. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 12663 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Hi, Goglerr - In a message dated 4/15/02 11:48:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, goglerr@y... writes: > > Dear Jon, TG and all, > > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. > > In the Comp. Manual of Adhm (B. Bodhi) in the third chapter > (Compedium of Miscellaneous) under the heading of Compedium of Bases) > pg 144-148 especially the chart at pg147 – they detailed out > certain > consciousness always arise from the heart and other consciousness > arise sometimes from the heart and still some may not arise at all > from the heart. Interesting!!! > > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled…………. > > Goglerr > ========================== I have no means of knowing whether or not this heart-base notion has any validity, but, if it does, I would bet that it pertains to what is sometimes called "subtle physiology", referring not to the ordinary physical body, but to a subtle counterpart involving chakras and nadis (to use Skt terminology). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12664 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa): only realities are objects of Satipathanna Dear Ken O, I appreciate your asking. I don't, however, have much access to either English (have more in Thai, but still not that easy) or Thai commentaries. Perhaps other members will oblige. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > > k: Could u kindly provide commentaries that > support that only reality is > the object of satipatthana. > 12665 From: Sukin Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Dear Goglerr, > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. Today I did an experiment. I was reclining on my sofa and felt pressure on my elbow, nothing unsusual. I looked at my arm from where I was, to the area under where the elbow is supposed to be and felt the sensation around there. Then I moved my attention slowly to another part of my arm keeping note of the sensation and I felt as if the sensation originated from that other place. I move up and down to another two locations, it was the same. What I conclude from this, is that rupa contacts another rupa at a specific area, but the citta is not localized. The thinking of consciousness as arising from a certain specific location I think is conceptual. But I may be wrong, not sure.....? > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled..... If i'm not wrong, the heart base that we are talking about, is a rupa which arises and falls perhaps somewhat similar in nature to the other pasada rupas, just a tiny area never lasting more than a moment. Regarding the status of brain, I just asked somebody a few days ago, the answer I got was that it was the center of physical activity of this body. Hope this helps. Best, Sukin. > > Goglerr > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > TG > > > > Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for bringing up this > interesting topic. > > > > --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have a question for this group. As I > > understand it, Abhidhamma claims that > > > > > > the physical heart is the base for mind consciousness. (Not the > brain.) > > > Does anyone have an explanation for what appears to be a gross > error on the > > > part of the Abhidhamma compilers? > > > > > > Thanks for whatever insights you might have. > > > > No insights here, but just a question and a comment. > > > > You suggest that the brain is the obvious candidate for the base of > mind > > consciousness. I would be interested to know what you base this > on -- general > > scientific knowledge or personal observation/experience? > > > > A point to consider along the way. 'Mind consciousness' must > include not only > > 'brain activity' of the thinking type but also the experience of > the data that > > appears at the various sense doors. So, for example, it includes > the > > experiencing of the hardness that appears at the soles of the feet > as one walks > > across the floor. Can we say that the brain is a more likely base > for this > > moment of consciousness than, say, the heart? > > > > Jon 12666 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:58pm Subject: new member Greetings Dear Dhamma Study Group, I am very happy to have found out about your group and look forward to learning from all of you and sharing what I can. My name is Shakti and I live in Montana, USA. I am reading and studying An Introduction to Abhidhamma translated by Silananda Brahmachari and A manual of Abhidhamma by Narada. I am very new at studying the Abhidhamma but have been a practicing Buddhist for many years. I sit daily and try to practice Vipassana in all that I do. I currently returned from a six week trip to Thailand where I was on retreat at Wat Pah Nanachat, a monastery in northeastern Thailand. While in Thailand I also studied with Ajahn Kittiya, my teacher in Bangkok. I would like to comment on heart base, the base for consciousness. My thoughts are that in past generations we were a heart centered people. That we lived a simple and quiet life, that we weren't continually preoccupied with our thinking - our thoughts and stories that the mind would spin. But rather that we were deeply connected to all that we felt. That we were able to feel the feelings even from our thoughts. Some where along the way a shift may have happened that we lost the connection to the heart to our feelings and we came to believe our home was in our heads. Clearly there is a connection between brain activity and emotions. But I wonder if in fact we are not minds that think but in fact feeling bodies that think? My teacher in Bangkok has said that we should view our thoughts and thinking that happen in the head from the heart space. She also said that we should seperate our thinking and feeling. When previously I would sit doing Vipassana I would think that I was perceiving all from inside the head. Since her instructions I have shifted awareness to the heart (a suble shift) and I must say that the difference in my practice is dramatic. I perceive a more spacious and peaceful space when thoughts and / or feelings arise they appear more as a distant whisper. I am more able to feel and know the difference between when I am thinking and when I am feeling. Anyways, I look forward to all of your emails. I am very happy and excited to be part of such a inspiring and interesting group. With metta, Shakti Sukin wrote: Dear Goglerr, > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. Today I did an experiment. I was reclining on my sofa and felt pressure on my elbow, nothing unsusual. I looked at my arm from where I was, to the area under where the elbow is supposed to be and felt the sensation around there. Then I moved my attention slowly to another part of my arm keeping note of the sensation and I felt as if the sensation originated from that other place. I move up and down to another two locations, it was the same. What I conclude from this, is that rupa contacts another rupa at a specific area, but the citta is not localized. The thinking of consciousness as arising from a certain specific location I think is conceptual. But I may be wrong, not sure.....? > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled..... If i'm not wrong, the heart base that we are talking about, is a rupa which arises and falls perhaps somewhat similar in nature to the other pasada rupas, just a tiny area never lasting more than a moment. Regarding the status of brain, I just asked somebody a few days ago, the answer I got was that it was the center of physical activity of this body. Hope this helps. Best, Sukin. > > Goglerr > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > TG > > > > Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for bringing up this > interesting topic. > > > > --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have a question for this group. As I > > understand it, Abhidhamma claims that 12667 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi Howard, personally,I don't think any of the tipitaka was created by the Buddha. Even the suttas are styled in a way suitable for memorization but not likely a close representation of actual speech. Anyway, there's more to 'getting it' than hearing the words straight from the horse's mouth. "Anicca, dukkha, anatta" is probably enough doctrine; now all we have to do is figure out what to do with it. Larry 12668 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 4:29pm Subject: ADL ch. 4 (1-10) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 4, paragraphs 1 - 10 THE CHARACTERISTIC OF LOBHA 1. Cittas are of different kinds. They can be classified as akusala cittas (unwholesome cittas), kusala cittas (wholesome cittas), vipakacittas (cittas which are result) and kiriyacittas (cittas which are neither cause nor result). These kinds of cittas arise in a day, yet we know so little about them. Most of the time we do not know whether the citta is akusala, kusala, vipaka or kiriya. If we learn to classify our mind we will have more understanding of ourselves and of others. 2. We will have more compassion and lovingkindness towards others, even when they behave in a disagreeable way. We do not like the akusala cittas of others; we find it unpleasant when they are stingy or speak harsh words. However, do we realize at which moments we ourselves have akusala cittas? When we dislike other people's harsh words, we ourselves have akusala cittas with aversion at that moment. Instead of paying attention to the akusala cittas of others we should be aware of our own akusala cittas. If one has not studied the Abhidhamma which explains realities in detail, one may not know what is akusala. People may take what is unwholesome for wholesome and thus accumulate unwholesomeness without knowing it. If we know more about different types of citta we can see for ourselves which types arise more often and thus we will know ourselves better. We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. The 'Atthasalini' (Book I, Part I, Ch.1, 38) speaks about the meaning of the word 'kusala'. The word 'kusala' has many meanings; it can mean 'of good health', 'faultless', 'skillful', 'productive of happy results'. 3. When we perform dana (generosity), sila (morality) and bhavana (mental development), the citta is kusala. All different kinds of wholesomeness such as the appreciation of other people's good deeds, helping others, politeness, paying respect, observing the precepts, studying and teaching Dhamma, samatha (tranquil meditation) and vipassana (development of ' insight';), are included in dana, sila or bhavana. Kusala is ' productive of happy results'; each good deed will bring a pleasant result. 4. The 'Atthasalini' (Book I, Part I, Ch.I, 39) states about akusala: 'Akusala' means 'not kusala'. Just as the opposite to friendship is enmity, or the opposite to greed, etc,. is disinterestedness, etc., so 'akusala' is opposed to 'kusala'... 5. Unwholesome deeds will bring unhappy results. Nobody wishes to experience an unhappy result, but many people are ignorant about the cause which brings an unhappy result, about akusala. They do not realize when the citta is unwholesome and they do not always know when they perform unwholesome deeds. 6. When we study the Abhidhamma we learn that there are three groups of akusala cittas. They are: 1. Lobha-mula-cittas, or cittas rooted in attachment (lobha) 2. Dosa-mula-cittas, or cittas rooted in aversion (dosa) 3. Moha-mula-cittas, or cittas rooted in ignorance (moha) 7. Moha (ignorance) arises with every akusala citta. Akusala cittas rooted in lobha (attachment) actually have two roots: moha and lobha. They are named lobha-mula-cittas', since there is not only moha, which arises with every akusala citta, but lobha as well. Lobha-mula-cittas are thus named after the root which is lobha. Akusala cittas rooted in dosa (aversion) have two roots as well: moha and dosa. They are named 'dosa-mula-cittas' after the root which is 'dosa'. There is more than one type of citta in each of the three classes of akusala cittas because there is such a great variety of cittas. 8. As regards lobha-mula-cittas, there are eight different types. When we know more about the characteristic of lobha and realize when it arises we may notice that we have different types of lobha-mula-cittas. Lobha is the paramattha dhamma (absolute reality) which is cetasika (mental factor arising with the citta); it is a reality and thus it can be experienced. 9. Lobha is 'clinging' or 'attachment'. The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 162) states: ....lobha has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lampblack. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. 10. Lobha is sometimes translated as 'greed' or 'craving'; it can be translated by different words, since there are many degrees of lobha. Lobha can be coarse, medium or subtle. Most people can recognize lobha when it is very obvious, but not when it is of a lesser degree. For example, we can recognize lobha when we are inclined to eat too much of a delicious meal, or when we are attached to alcoholic drinks and cigarettes. We are attached to people and we suffer when we lose those who are dear to us through death. Then we can see that attachment brings sorrow. Sometimes attachment is very obvious, but there are many degrees of lobha and often we may not know that we have lobha. Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly and we may not realize it when lobha arises on account of what we experience in daily life through the six doors, especially if the degree of lobha is not as intense as greed or lust. Every time there is a pleasant sight, sound, odour, taste or impression through the body-sense, lobha is likely to arise. It arises countless times a day. 12669 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 1:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base In a message dated 4/15/2002 6:52:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > You suggest that the brain is the obvious candidate for the base of mind > consciousness. I would be interested to know what you base this on -- > general > scientific knowledge or personal observation/experience? > > A point to consider along the way. 'Mind consciousness' must include not > only > 'brain activity' of the thinking type but also the experience of the data > that > appears at the various sense doors. So, for example, it includes the > experiencing of the hardness that appears at the soles of the feet as one > walks > across the floor. Can we say that the brain is a more likely base for this > moment of consciousness than, say, the heart? > > Jon > Hi Jon Regarding the first question, I base it a good deal on scientific knowledge which I am reasonable confident in; in this particular case. Also, when studying hard, or concentrating hard in general, there are pressures/feelings such as lightness or fatigue (or whatever) that correspond to the area that a "my" brain would be. In other words, when engaged in strenuous cognitive activity, it is felt inside the head and the heart does not feel any different whatsoever. However, I suppose an arguement could be made that the heart beats faster in times of fear, excitement, etc. Nevertheless, people who have heart attacks rarely lose mental capacity. People who have strokes often do. As for the second comment. I completely agree regarding the inter-connectivity of sense base, sense object, and mental operations. But there does seem to be an operational center for mind activity and I am quite satisfied that the brain is the answer. TG 12670 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) "do we realize at which moments we ourselves have akusala cittas? When we dislike other people's harsh words, we ourselves have akusala cittas with aversion at that moment" Hi all, in other words, there is no such thing as ritious indignation. This raises an interesting point; can we recognize evil, hateful words and deeds without aversion? Of course, but it doesn't happen very often. Larry 12671 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new member Dear Shakti, It’s great to hear from you and to read your intro with so much helpful information. Many thanks indeed and a big welcome to DSG. ..... --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Greetings Dear Dhamma Study Group, > I am very happy to have found out about your group and look forward to > learning from all of you and sharing what I can. > My name is Shakti and I live in Montana, USA. ..... Dan, one of our occasional abhidhamma bright sparks comes from Montana too, I think. ..... >I am reading and studying > An Introduction to Abhidhamma translated by Silananda Brahmachari and A > manual of Abhidhamma by Narada. I am very new at studying the > Abhidhamma but have been a practicing Buddhist for many years. ..... You may also find it interesting to join in the discussions here led by Larry on Nina Van Gorkom’s Abhidhamma book. (let me know if you need URLs for this) ..... >I sit > daily and try to practice Vipassana in all that I do. I currently > returned from a six week trip to Thailand where I was on retreat at Wat > Pah Nanachat, a monastery in northeastern Thailand. ..... Another member of the list, Mike, talked to me quite a lot about this particular monastery when we met him in Bangkok a couple of months ago. He had lived there some years back and had recently just re-visited it. Your other comments are all very interesting too, as well as everyone’s else’s comments on heart-base. All the really tricky areas (for me, anyway) seem to come up here and I appreciate the group study and research and comments with regard to the relevance in daily life practice. I’ll certainly be looking forward to hearing more from you, Shakti. Many thanks again for your informative first post. Sarah ================================ >While in Thailand I > also studied with Ajahn Kittiya, my teacher in Bangkok. > I would like to comment on heart base, the base for consciousness. > My thoughts are that in past generations we were a heart centered > people. That we lived a simple and quiet life, that we weren't > continually preoccupied with our thinking - our thoughts and stories > that the mind would spin. But rather that we were deeply connected to > all that we felt. That we were able to feel the feelings even from our > thoughts. Some where along the way a shift may have happened that we > lost the connection to the heart to our feelings and we came to believe > our home was in our heads. Clearly there is a connection between brain > activity and emotions. But I wonder if in fact we are not minds that > think but in fact feeling bodies that think? > My teacher in Bangkok has said that we should view our thoughts and > thinking that happen in the head from the heart space. She also said > that we should seperate our thinking and feeling. When previously I > would sit doing Vipassana I would think that I was perceiving all from > inside the head. Since her instructions I have shifted awareness to the > heart (a suble shift) and I must say that the difference in my practice > is dramatic. I perceive a more spacious and peaceful space when > thoughts and / or feelings arise they appear more as a distant whisper. > I am more able to feel and know the difference between when I am > thinking and when I am feeling. > Anyways, I look forward to all of your emails. I am very happy and > excited to be part of such a inspiring and interesting group. > With metta, > Shakti > =================================================== 12672 From: Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) "....lobha has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lampblack. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean." Hi all, what is bondage? Larry 12673 From: dhamma101 Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 10:32pm Subject: Basic question Respected Ms Nina, Ms Betty and other senior members of the group, I am truly delighted to find this group. I felt so good after reading Ms Nina's books on dhammastudy.com. I am grateful to her for her writings. I am a novice and I see this group is for advanced people. I have done some basic reading and have done one Vipassana course, but I am not grounded yet. I read on some website that the group dhamma-list is for beginners, but did not feel comfortable going there after reading a few posts. I would appreciate if you let me know if my questions are too basic for this group by sending me email at dhamma101@y.... Please forgive, and kindly correct, any incorrect use of Pali terminology. If I see pleasant sights (and am aware that they are pleasant sights) but notice that it makes me sad (because I miss my folks when I am (supposed to be) enjoying these sights), is this due to kusala citta followed by akusala citta? How to reflect upon this kind of experience? A part of my mind wants to see the beautiful mountains and flowers (craving?) and a part of my mind thinks it will just make me sad so better not to see (aversion?). Or is this just plain schizophrenia? With regards, DaiWen 12674 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 0:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Basic question Dear Daiwan, Let me first welcome you to DSG. I am sure you will find many excellent friends here. > -----Original Message----- > > I read on some website that the group dhamma-list > is for beginners, > but did not feel comfortable going there after > reading a few posts. > I would appreciate if you let me know if my questions are > too basic for this group by sending me email at > dhamma101@y.... A lot of us are beginners here, and we do ask the same basic questions again and again. The Buddha's teachings are profound, and a lot of us will be grateful to have the opportunity to consider the same teachings again. > > If I see pleasant sights (and am aware that they > are pleasant sights) > but notice that it makes me sad (because I miss > my folks when > I am (supposed to be) enjoying these sights), is this > due to kusala citta followed by akusala citta? What we see is partly a result of kamma done in the past. The kamma conditions the seeing consciousness to arise to cognize visible object, be it pleasant (flowers, mountain, etc.) or unplesant (ugly things). Immediately thereafter, wholesome (non-attachment, non-aversion, wisdom, etcl.) or unwholesome (attachment, aversion, delusion) consciousness rise to cognize the same object, depending on one's accumulation. In this case what you are describing is most likely kusala vipaka (result of kamma), followed by attachment to the beautiful object (attachment), then followed by akusala states (aversion). > How to reflect upon this kind of experience? Hopefully wisely! When we learn more about the dhamma, we are more proned to reflect based on what we have heard and considered in the past. One may reflect that seeing is just a conditioned dhamma: it is not us, it is not ours. One may reflect that what we see surely must fall away, even seeing itself will fall away. One may reflect that without the eyesense and the visible object, there would be no seeing. One may reflect that without seeing, the attachment and the dosa wouldn't have the opportunity to arise (then). The list goes on.. > A part of my mind wants to see the beautiful > mountains and flowers > (craving?) and a part of my mind thinks it will > just make me > sad so better not to see (aversion?). > Or is this just plain schizophrenia? Our consciousness rises and falls away according to its conditions (our accumulations). We should learn to know the realities as they truly are (as dhamma, as materials / mentality). Welcome again! kom 12675 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic question Dear DaiWen, Welcome to DSG and it's good to hear your questions. I'm adding a few more comments between some of yours: --- dhamma101 wrote: > Respected Ms Nina, Ms Betty and other senior members of the group, > I am truly delighted to find this group. I felt so good after > reading Ms Nina's books on dhammastudy.com. I am grateful > to her for her writings. > I am a novice and I see this group is for advanced people. > I have done some basic reading and have done one Vipassana course, > but I am not grounded yet. ..... I expect Nina or Betty will add more detail, but I'm sure they will also agree that none of us are 'advanced'. Sometimes the Pali words help make the meaning a little clearer, but will all appreciate a lot of 'basic' reading. Really, there's no need to compare with others and we're all just happy to share any knowledge and work together here, I think. ..... > Please forgive, and kindly correct, any incorrect use of Pali > terminology. ..... On the other hand, it's helpful for us all to read different styles and we also ask you to be patient with members who find it easier to use pali words and to let us know if you're getting confused. You may find it helpful to print out the simple glossary here and keep it next to you when you read the posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary ..... > If I see pleasant sights (and am aware that they are pleasant sights) > but notice that it makes me sad (because I miss my folks when > I am (supposed to be) enjoying these sights), is this > due to kusala citta followed by akusala citta? > How to reflect upon this kind of experience? > A part of my mind wants to see the beautiful mountains and flowers > (craving?) and a part of my mind thinks it will just make me > sad so better not to see (aversion?). > Or is this just plain schizophrenia? ..... I hope others will add comments. I'm just reflecting on a recent helpful message by Howard who rightly stressed the attachment to feelings. One of the meanings of dukkha (viparinama dukkha) refers to the pursuit of pleasant feelings which never last. So much time in a day is spent following and pursuing these pleasant feelings,such as when we eat or enjoy sights. The pleasant feeling is never enough and never satisfies us. The change or the temporary nature of this pleasant feeling is what this meaning of dukkha refers to. Like you have noticed, it is always followed by aversion and unplesant feeling. It's so helpful to have just a little understanding of different dhammas and at times when there is a little wise reflection or understanding, there are kusala cittas in between the many with ignorance. DaiWan, I hope to hear plenty of your considerations and other responses. Would you also kindly tell us where you live sometime too. Thanks for introducing yourself and please don't feel intimidated by some of the more detailed posts or use of Pali. Best wishes, Sarah ====================================== 12676 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Stigan - ... ... > Once again you have done something marvelous! I looked for these > suttas on ATI, and not finding them there I went directly to my copy of "The > Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha" by Bhikkus ~Nanamoli and Bodhi. All > three of your references are there and exactly as you describe them. > Moreover, I note two matters of interest: 1) The Mahagosinga and Gulissani > Suttas both involve Sariputta in an important way, which is significant > inasmuch as Sariputta is traditionally associated with the Abhidhamma, and 2) > > The Kinti Sutta's mention of Abhidhamma immediately follows, and is alleged > to refer to, the LIST (!) of 37 requisites for enlightenment detailed in the > previous paragraph. > I find this to be direct evidence that Abhidhamma is referred to in > the suttas, associated there with Sariputta, and involving detailed lists. > This certainly suggests that, at the very least, the seeds of what was to > become the Abhidhamma Pitaka were in place during the lifetime of the Buddha. > > Perhaps much more was already in place. In any case, what you have provided > here, Stigan, is certainly important food for thought. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. To Sarah, Jon, and Stigan: There has been some discussion of Abhidhamma, > and its origins, on another list. I wish to request that I combine a few of > the relevant DSG posts on this, including the body of this current post of > mine, into a single post which I will send to that other list. I will remove > names of posters other than mine if it is wished. Would this be okay? Thanks for asking. As far as Sarah and I are concerned, you're most welcome to incorporate material from this list into a post to another list, but we would appreciate acknowledgement of dhammastudygroup as the source (and we would suggest some acknowledgement be given of the member(s) whose work is being referred to). Copying of whole posts to another list is a slightly different case (I know that's not what you have in mind here, though). As we see it, that is more a matter for the author of the post to decide, and we are not in a position to speak for others on this. For ourselves, we have no objection, subject to appropriate acknowledgement as above. Do share your finished work with us too! Jon 12677 From: Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Thanks, Jon. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/16/02 8:00:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Stigan - > ... ... > > Once again you have done something marvelous! I looked for these > > suttas on ATI, and not finding them there I went directly to my copy of > "The > > Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha" by Bhikkus ~Nanamoli and Bodhi. > All > > three of your references are there and exactly as you describe them. > > Moreover, I note two matters of interest: 1) The Mahagosinga and > Gulissani > > Suttas both involve Sariputta in an important way, which is significant > > inasmuch as Sariputta is traditionally associated with the Abhidhamma, > and 2) > > > > The Kinti Sutta's mention of Abhidhamma immediately follows, and is > alleged > > to refer to, the LIST (!) of 37 requisites for enlightenment detailed in > the > > previous paragraph. > > I find this to be direct evidence that Abhidhamma is referred to > in > > the suttas, associated there with Sariputta, and involving detailed > lists. > > This certainly suggests that, at the very least, the seeds of what was to > > > become the Abhidhamma Pitaka were in place during the lifetime of the > Buddha. > > > > Perhaps much more was already in place. In any case, what you have > provided > > here, Stigan, is certainly important food for thought. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > P.S. To Sarah, Jon, and Stigan: There has been some discussion of > Abhidhamma, > > and its origins, on another list. I wish to request that I combine a few > of > > the relevant DSG posts on this, including the body of this current post > of > > mine, into a single post which I will send to that other list. I will > remove > > names of posters other than mine if it is wished. Would this be okay? > > Thanks for asking. > > As far as Sarah and I are concerned, you're most welcome to incorporate > material from this list into a post to another list, but we would > appreciate > acknowledgement of dhammastudygroup as the source (and we would suggest > some > acknowledgement be given of the member(s) whose work is being referred to). > > Copying of whole posts to another list is a slightly different case (I know > that's not what you have in mind here, though). As we see it, that is more > a > matter for the author of the post to decide, and we are not in a position > to > speak for others on this. For ourselves, we have no objection, subject to > appropriate acknowledgement as above. > > Do share your finished work with us too! > > Jon > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12678 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member Dear Sarah, I am very interested in finding out where I can get the book that you are all studying about the Abhidhamma as you listed below. Please let me know - I would appreciate it. ..... You may also find it interesting to join in the discussions here led by Larry on Nina Van Gorkom’s Abhidhamma book. (let me know if you need URLs for this) Thanks, Shakti 12679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] sankhara dhammas and sankhata dhammas. Dear Jon, I would just like to add something from A. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 6, about sankhara dhammas and sankhata dhammas. They refer to the same realities but there is a subtle difference: Sankhara dhamma: the dhamma that depends on other dhammas which condition its arising. Sankhata dhamma: the dhamma that, apart from being conditioned, is the dhamma that arises and falls away. Sankhara is derived from sankharoti, to combine, put together or compose. Sankhata is the past passive participle of sankharoti: what has been put together, composed. I quote: end quote. Nibbana is in the Dhammasangani referred to as asankhata dhatu. Nina. op 14-04-2002 10:47 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > 'Conditionality' can indeed be used to describe a particular relation. > However, it can also be used to describe the quality of being formed or > conditioned, in the sense of 'sankhara/sankhata'. (See passage from Buddhist > Dictionary pasted below.) > > One of the meanings of 'sankhara dhamma' is dhammas that are formed or > conditioned. And the term 'sankhata' has a similar meaning, usually I think > used in apposition to the term 'asankhata' as an epithet for nibbana. > > Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy) > [The **emphasis** is mine] > > Sankhaara > "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which > should be carefully distinguished. > "(I) To its most frequent usages (see following 1-4) the general term > 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the context. > This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to **the passive state of > 'having been formed'** or to both. > … > "4. It occurs further in the sense of **anything formed (sankhata) and > conditioned**, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of > existence. > This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are > impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhaara aniccaa ... dukkhaa)." > > Sankhata > "The 'formed', i.e. anything **originated or conditioned**, comprises all > phenomena of existence." > > Asankhata > "The 'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the > **beyond of all becoming and conditionality**." > > 12680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] : only realities are objects of Satipathanna Dear Ken O, As Suan explained, the Buddha taught ultimate realities, also in the suttas. He taught about the five khandhas, the ayatanas, the elements, and those are nama and rupa classified in different ways. He taught these so that people would develop right understanding of them. You asked also in which commentaries. Time and again Buddhaghosa stresses vipassana panna, and the object of vipassana: the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas. For instance, Kindred Sayings IV, Ch 3, §26, Comprehension: Without fully knowing, without comprehending the all,. monks, without detaching himself from, without abandoning the all, a man is incapable of extinguishing dukkha.... It is by not fully knowing the eye... the tongue... that a man is incapable of extinguishing dukkha.. The Co states that this sutta refers to the three pari~n~nas, which include the stages of vipassana ~naa.na. I do not know how many Co texts you need, but there are countless texts. Nina. >> >> k: Could u kindly provide commentaries that >> support that only reality is >> the object of satipatthana. > > > 12681 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] new member Dear Deanna, Try this HTML link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html or this PDF file: http://www.zolag.co.uk/adlfinal.pdf kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Deanna Shakti Johnson > [mailto:deannajohnsonusa@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:54 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] new member > > > > Dear Sarah, > I am very interested in finding out where I can > get the book that you are all studying about the > Abhidhamma as you listed below. Please let me > know - I would appreciate it. > 12682 From: goglerr Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Sukin, Thanks for your sharing and insight. I appreciate that. G --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukin" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > > > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. > > > Today I did an experiment. I was reclining on my sofa and felt pressure > on my elbow, nothing unsusual. I looked at my arm from where I was, > to the area under where the elbow is supposed to be and felt the sensation > around there. Then I moved my attention slowly to another part of my arm > keeping note of the sensation and I felt as if the sensation originated from > that > other place. I move up and down to another two locations, it was the same. > What I conclude from this, is that rupa contacts another rupa at a specific > area, but the citta is not localized. The thinking of consciousness as > arising > from a certain specific location I think is conceptual. > But I may be wrong, not sure.....? > > > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled..... > > If i'm not wrong, the heart base that we are talking about, is a rupa which > arises > and falls perhaps somewhat similar in nature to the other pasada rupas, just > a > tiny area never lasting more than a moment. > > Regarding the status of brain, I just asked somebody a few days ago, the > answer > I got was that it was the center of physical activity of this body. > Hope this helps. > Best, > Sukin. > > > > Goglerr > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: 12683 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] A Question of Reference Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Some time ago, in the Series on the Bahiranidana (commentary to the > Vinaya), in posts: > 9464, 9495, 9673, 9810, 9961,10143, 10310, > > (under Vinaya - commentary to) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > I just finished the reading all the posts under Vinaya... I really brought much joy and appreciation on the arahant disciples who made possible the study of the dhamma in its present form, and also the appeciation of all those who made this possible. Much appreciation, kom 12684 From: Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi Howard I dont mind at all,go right ahead. I'm glad you found the quotes useful. With Metta Stigan > P.S. To Sarah, Jon, and Stigan: There has been some discussion of > Abhidhamma, > > and its origins, on another list. I wish to request that I combine a few > of > > the relevant DSG posts on this, including the body of this current post > of > > mine, into a single post which I will send to that other list. I will > remove > > names of posters other than mine if it is wished. Would this be okay? > 12685 From: Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:07pm Subject: ADL ch. 4 (11-15) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 4, paragraphs 11 - 15 11. Lobha arises when there are conditions for its arising; It is beyond control. In many suttas the Buddha speaks about lobha points out the dangers of it and the way to overcome lobha. The pleasant objects which can be experienced through the five senses are in several suttas called the 'five strands of sense-pleasures'. We read in the 'Maha-dukkhakkhandha -sutta'; ('Greater Discourse on the Stems of Anguish', Middle Length Saying I, No. 13) that the Buddha, when he was staying near Savatthi, in the Jeta Grove, said to the monks: And what, monks, is the satisfaction in pleasures of these senses? These five, monks, are the strands of sense-pleasures. What five? Material shapes cognisable by the eye, agreeable, pleasant, liked, enticing, connected with sensual pleasures, alluring. Sounds, cognisable by the ear... Smells, cognisable by the nose... . Tastes, cognisable by the tongue... Touches, cognisable by the body, agreeable, pleasant, liked, enticing, connected with sensual pleasures, alluring. These, monks, are the five strands of sense pleasures. Whatever pleasure, whatever happiness arises in consequence of these five strands of sense-pleasures, this is the satisfaction in sense-pleasures. 12. The satisfaction in sense-pleasures is not true happiness. Those who do not know the Buddha's teachings may think that attachment is wholesome, especially when it arises with a pleasant feeling. They may not know the difference between attachment and lovingkindness (metta), phenomena which may both arise with a pleasant feeling. However, a citta accompanied by pleasant feeling is not necessarily kusala citta. When we learn more about akusala cittas and kusala cittas and when we are mindful of their characteristics, we will notice that the pleasant feeling which may arise with lobha-mula-citta (a citta rooted in attachment) is different from the pleasant feeling which may arise with kusala citta. Feeling (vedana) is a cetasika which arises with every citta. When the citta is akusala, the feeling is also akusala, and when the citta is kusala, the feeling is also kusala. We may be able to know the difference between the characteristic of the pleasant feeling arising when we are attached to an agreeable sight or sound, and the characteristic of the pleasant feeling arising when we are generous. 13. The Buddha pointed out that lobha brings sorrow. When we have to part from people who are dear to us or when we lose the things we enjoy, we have sorrow. If we are attached to a comfortable life we may have aversion when we have to endure hardship or when things do not turn out the way we want them to be. We read in the 'Greater Discourse on the Stems of Anguish' which was quoted above, that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the sorrow due to pleasures of the senses: And what, monks, is the peril in sense-pleasures? In this case, monks, a young man of family earns his living by some craft... He is afflicted by the cold, he is afflicted by the heat, suffering from the touch of gadflies, mosquitos, wind, sun, creeping things, dying of hunger and thirst. This, monks, is a peril in pleasures of the senses that is present, a stem of ill.... If, monks, this young man of family rouses himself, exerts himself, strives thus, but if these possessions do not come to his hand, he grieves, mourns, laments, beating his breast and wailing, he falls into disillusionment, and thinks: 'Indeed my exertion is vain, indeed my striving is fruitless.' This too, monks, is a peril in the pleasures of the senses that is present.... And again, monks, when sense-pleasures are the cause... kings dispute with kings, nobles dispute with nobles, brahmans dispute with brahmans, householders dispute with householders, a mother disputes with her son, a son disputes with his mother, a father disputes with his son, a son disputes with his father, a brother disputes with a brother, a brother disputes with a sister, a sister disputes with a brother, a friend disputes with a friend. Those who enter into quarrel, contention, dispute and attack one another with their hands and with stones and with sticks and with weapons, these suffer dying then and pain like unto dying. This too, monks, is a peril in the pleasures of the senses that is present... 14. We then read about many more perils in pleasures of the senses, and about the bad results they will cause in the future. The Buddha also explained about the satisfaction and peril in 'material shapes'. We read: 'And what, monks, is the satisfaction in material shapes? Monks, it is like a girl in a noble's family or a brahman's family or a householder's family who at the age of fifteen or sixteen is not too tall, not too short, not too thin, not too fat, not too dark, not too fair - - is she, monks, at the height of her beauty and loveliness at that time?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, whatever happiness and pleasure arise because of beauty and loveliness, this is satisfaction in material shapes. And what, monks is peril in material shapes? As to this, monks, one might see that same lady after a time, eighty or ninety or a hundred years old, aged, crooked as a rafter, bent, leaning on a stick, going along palsied, miserable, youth gone, teeth broken, hair thinned, skin wrinkled, stumbling along, the limbs discoloured... ....And again, monks, one might see that same lady, her body thrown aside in a cemetery - dead for one, two or three days, swollen, discoloured, decomposing. What would you think, monks? That that which was former beauty and loveliness has vanished, a peril has appeared?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'This too, monks, is a peril in material shapes....' 15. What the Buddha told the monks may sound crude to us, but it is reality. We find it difficult to accept life as it really is: birth, old age, sickness and death. We cannot bear to think of our own body or the body of someone who is dear to us as being a corpse. We accept being born, but we find it difficult to accept the consequences of birth, which are old age, sickness and death. We wish to ignore the impermanence of all conditioned things. When we look into the looking-glass and when we take care of our body we are inclined to take it for something which stays and which belongs to ourselves. However, the body is only rupa, elements which fall away as soon as they have arisen. There is no particle of the body which lasts. 12686 From: goglerr Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Sukin, Thanks for your insight and appreciate that. ...smile. G. ps - saw some of u guys photos....cute! --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukin" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > > > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. > > > Today I did an experiment. I was reclining on my sofa and felt pressure > on my elbow, nothing unsusual. I looked at my arm from where I was, > to the area under where the elbow is supposed to be and felt the sensation > around there. Then I moved my attention slowly to another part of my arm > keeping note of the sensation and I felt as if the sensation originated from > that > other place. I move up and down to another two locations, it was the same. > What I conclude from this, is that rupa contacts another rupa at a specific > area, but the citta is not localized. The thinking of consciousness as > arising > from a certain specific location I think is conceptual. > But I may be wrong, not sure.....? > > > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled..... > > If i'm not wrong, the heart base that we are talking about, is a rupa which > arises > and falls perhaps somewhat similar in nature to the other pasada rupas, just > a > tiny area never lasting more than a moment. > > Regarding the status of brain, I just asked somebody a few days ago, the > answer > I got was that it was the center of physical activity of this body. > Hope this helps. > Best, > Sukin. > > > > Goglerr > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott 12687 From: Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Thanks, Stigan. Jon had suggested that I credit the posters I quote. May I use your name? With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/16/02 8:14:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bodhi2500@a... writes: > Hi Howard > I dont mind at all,go right ahead. I'm glad you found the > quotes useful. > > With > Metta > > > Stigan /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12689 From: Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Hi Howard I think it's a good idea to credit someone for what they write in a post,But because i only quoted translations, perhapes just crediting the Translaters(as i should of done) would be a good idea, the Majjhima quotes were Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The Vinaya quote was Translated by I.B. Horner, though Sara's post had the more complete version of the same quote. But my all means, if you want to use my name, go right ahead. If for any reason you would like the Pali for any of the quotes, just let me know. With Metta Stigan > Thanks, Stigan. Jon had suggested that I credit the posters I quote. May I > use your name? > > With metta, > Howard > 12690 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 aggss is dukkha, 5 aggs of clinging more dukkha Dear Stigan, I'm appreciating your contributions very much. I'm really impressed by the careful study that is going on on the Gold Coast...not just a bunch of surfies;-) I've just read your post below more carefully and really find it an excellent summary of the 5 aggregates of dukkha, "capable of being taken as objects of clinging". As you mention, only the lokuttara cittas cannot be objects of clinging. ..... > This leads to questions on the 3rd Noble Truth, but I'll wait untill I > see > any replies to this email, to make sure I am understanding this > correctly. ..... Very correctly to my eye and greatly look forward to your comments on 3rd NT ..... > P.S. I have just returned from a break, so i think there were a few > emails to > me that I hadn't replied to, I will try to catch up soon. ..... Looks like you're doing a good job. Btw, I wasn't sure about BB's somewhat sceptical note at the back w/regard to the abhidhamma reference in MN. After all, the Atthasalini quotes the passage. There were a few other refs mentioned in the Atth and Bahiranidana (mostly in Vinaya, but one or two suttas) that I've had trouble checking....sometimes it's the numbering system and I'm in too much of a rush and sometimes (like Howard found on ATI, the translations are not complete). Glad to hear further comments and hope you're keeping the SEQld DSG get together at the end of July in mind - Christine is in charge of coordinating ;-) Sarah =========================== --- Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > I've been considering the "5 Khandha's" and the "5 Upadanakhandha's". > > Sabbe Sankhara Dukkha > and the ti-lakkhana-3 characteristics of conditioned Dhamma's being > Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta. > > The 5 Khandha's being conditioned would be Dukkha. > > It is Dukkha that rises, Dukkha that remains, Dukkha that departs, > nothing > rises else than Dukkha, and > nothing ceases else than Dukkha'(S.i, 135) > > The material form in what has thus come to be is included in the > material > form aggregate affected by clinging.The feeling in what has thus come to > be > is included in the feeling aggregate affected by clinging. The > perception in > what has thus come to be is included in the perception aggregate > affected by > clinging. The formations in what has thus come to be is included in the > formation aggregate affected by clinging. The consciousness in what has > thus > come to be is included in the consciousness aggregate affected by > clinging. > Mahahatthipadopama Sutta > > To my understanding any rupa,vedana,sanna,sankhara or vinnana that has > "thus > come to be" is to be included in the 5 Upadanakhandha's, because they > are > "capable of being taken as objects of clinging" (and perhapes as the > basis > that all clinging arises,ie a condition for clinging (?)) and in the > case of > a Arahants mundane khandha's they can be taken as objects of clinging by > > others(see Atthasalini 347). And any rupa,vedana,sanna,sankhara or > vinnana > that has "thus come to be" is to be considered as > Dukkha(sankhara-dukkhata)because they are conditioned Dhamma's > > There are three kinds of > suffering:(1)suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhata ), > (2)the suffering inherent in the formations (sankhara- > dukkhata ),(3)the suffering in change (viparnama- > dukkhata )(S.XLV,165;D.33). Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines by > Ven.Nyanatiloka > ================================================ 12691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions op 16-04-2002 07:32 schreef dhamma101 op dhamma101@y...: > I read on some website that the group dhamma-list is for beginners, > but did not feel comfortable going there after reading a few posts. > I would appreciate if you let me know if my questions are > too basic for this group by sending me email at dhamma101@y.... > > Please forgive, and kindly correct, any incorrect use of Pali > terminology. > Dear DaiWen, your observations and questions are excellent, completely daily life. I try to make a few remarks: D: If I see pleasant sights (and am aware that they are pleasant sights) > but notice that it makes me sad (because I miss my folks when > I am (supposed to be) enjoying these sights), is this > due to kusala citta followed by akusala citta? Nina: Usually when we see pleasant sights we like them, and thus there is attachment, this is not kusala, but akusala. It is very common to be attached, we are time and again. Very natural that there are also moments of sadness, and this is another kind of akusala, it is aversion. Aversion has many degrees, coarse or more subtle. It can be some slight sadness, or uneasiness, or stronger like disgust. D: How to reflect upon this kind of experience? N: We do not have to do anything special, when there are conditions for reflection, you reflect, when there are no conditions for reflection you cannot even reflect, even if you wanted to. Gradually you can learn that whatever arises, be it kusala, akusala, reflection or distraction, does so because of its own condiitons, no self who can regulate or control anything. D: A part of my mind wants to see the beautiful mountains and flowers > (craving?) and a part of my mind thinks it will just make me > sad so better not to see (aversion?). > Or is this just plain schizophrenia? N: Just a natural, normal reaction. You are right that there are craving and aversion alternately. You can see how fast all these moments change, no time to do anything about them. I hope you will write more about your different observations, we can all learn from them, with best wishes for your study and with appreciation, Nina. > 12692 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, to Suan: To Nina And Sarah Dear Suan, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > When the people did not make effort to srudy Abhidhamma, they had no > chance of comparing it with Suttam Pitaka. Without such comparative > reading, they had no chance of recognizing segments of Abhidhamma in > each Suttam. So the vicious circle of unawareness goes on and on. Perhaps the difficulty is that we all read the texts according to our limited understanding. Many people read Suttas but still wish to cling to an idea of self and control. As we know, the Teachings are very profound and difficult to penetrate for us all. Studying the Abhidhamma challenges many of these deep-seated views in more detail and more precisely, which may be the reason that many would prefer not to recognize ‘segments of Abhidhamma in each Suttam’ or accept the Abhidhamma as being the Buddha’s teaching. I think that the more understanding and confidence there is in the paramattha dhammas (ultimte realities) existing at this moment, the less concern or question there is about the validity of the Abhidhamma. It can be tested and proved now and who but a Buddha could have understood all the incredible detail with such omniscient wisdom? In appreciation of your studies and concern to help others, Suan and always glad to hear your comments. Sarah ========== 12693 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 11:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi Num, --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Kom:<<<<<> 1) The mind-door (mano-dvara), the door by which the mind-door cittas > arise, > is the bhavanga citta itself. > 2) The mind-base / mental-base (manayatana) include all 89 cittas > (vinnana > khandha) > 3) The mind-object-base (dhammayatana) includes 16 refined rupa, all 52 > cetasikas, and nibbana. > 4) The mental objects (dhammaramana), objects that can be known only > through > the mind-door process, includes all dhammayatana, 5 sense rupa (sense > door), > all manayatana, and pannati. >>>>> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Num:> Dear Kom, Larry and ADL group; > > Kom this is a very good summary, very concise. I really like it. .......... Like you, I always appreciate Kom's helpful summaries .......... Num:> Mano-dvara-vithi (mind-door-process) can know both dhammaramana and 7 > vissayarupas. Kom has already given a very concise definition of > dhammaramana. And yes, dhammaramana can be known only through the > mind-door-process. The point which is somewhat hidden here is the 7 > vissayarupas can also be known through mind-door-process but as a past > objects. Dhammaramana as an object in mind-door-process can be past, > present, > future or even time-independent (refer to panatti and nibbana). > > Hmm, hope it's not too complicated. .......... Well, life is never simple;-) Strictly speaking, when the vissayarupas (or characteristics of these rupas of temperature, solidity and so on) are known through the mind door, as you say, they have just fallen away. However, I think we still consider them as present objects which to all intents and purposes they are. When you mention the dhammarammana being past, present or future, I think you mean the concepts being presently thought about, relate to any time (past, present or future). Thinking can think about anything, even nibbana. I'm just raising this to clarify my undestanding as we have one or two time-related discussions on standby;-) .......... >And let me quote a line from a > book, to > lighten up your head a little bit. > I think it's still somewhat related to the topic. I like it a lot. > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les > yeux." > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is > > invisible to the eye." > (from Le Petit Prince) .......... You certainly opened a can of worms with this quote, Num. I liked the book but my linguistic skills are a very long way behind yours;-) I'll try to find your other post (to me) on psychiatry/abhidhamma and another can of worms to respond to now as well. Sarah =============== 12694 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Num, We were comparing your QUOTE 1 given from a psychiatric point of view and your QUOTE 2 (at end of post) from a dhamma point of view. Thank you for taking my question on the comparison of the two in such good humour;-) .......... --- srnsk@a... wrote: > > Hmm, you always come up with excellent questions. This is a very hard > one. I > ask myself the same thing. And the best answer, I can come with is, I > don't > know :-). A whole lot more to investigate and find out. .......... I may be stepping on toes here, but as I’ve also considered these areas quite a bit, let me add just a few comments on your quote 1 in context and add quote 2 at the end again as I find it so inspiring;-): QUOTE1 > Well, the causes of depressive disorder are unclear. Genetic, biological > > background and psychosocial issue are always interacted. >. Psycho-social issues always play a big parts in > > initiating and maintaining of depression. Body and mind are always > interacted. .......... I think we can all agree that we can understand a lot more about causes and conditions from our dhamma studies: 1. What we refer to conventionally or medically as a ‘depresive disorder’ consists of many different mental states. 2. We know there are many complex conditions which combine to ‘form up’ any state. Many of these conditions (inc. kamma and accumulations) are not just derived in this lifetime either 3. We are used to thinking of ‘character’ as being partly genetically or biologically determined. In fact, as we know from our dhamma studies, there is no inherent reason why a child’s accumulations or character should be anymore like a parent’s or sibling’s than like a friend’s. I have taught many twins, including identical twins with diametrically opposite traits! 4. When we talk about ‘psycho-social issues’ and ‘body and mind’ interaction, we can all agree conventionally on the relevance of these factors. However, as we’ve discussed with regard to social issues, we need to distinguish between the concepts and realities to really understand causes of dukkha dukkha for example. We also know that mind (citta) is just one --albeit a very important one--condition or cause of body (rupa) to arise. .......... > To me when someone attempts suicide, it's a cry for help from the inner > pain, > not a cry for intention. When depression comes, one sees only the > negative > side of the world, see no way out of the situation. It can be serious to > the > point of being obsessive with negative thought, self-depreciation, > delusional > and even fatal-suicidal. .......... Yes, I think that from a dhamma point of view there’s no disagreement. We’d say that someone is overwhelmed by dukkha dukkha with a lot of dosa and akusala thinking (long stories)with more dosa. It seems when there is no awareness that the unpleasant mental and bodiy feeling lasts a long time. Actually there have to be moments of seeing, hearing and even lobha in between. But when we’re lost ‘in the story’, nothing else is known. .......... > The good news is depression is a treatable disease. There are different > levels of approach of treatment. .......... In the long-run, the only treatment I understand is that of the development of wisdom (see your quote below). However, we have to know what is ‘suitable’ (sappaya sampajanna, I think) which means taking the right medicine, food, exercise or therapy at the time according to the needs. If someone is overwhelmed in this manner, I would certainly encourage conventional help as well as whatever dhamma support the person is able to appreciate. .......... > Well, all I want to say is depression is an illness, not a weakness. > Depression as a disease is not the same as the sadness when we left our > families or friends. Depressive disorder is a fatal disease. .......... I’m sure my comments here will sound very inappropriate to many, but I would say that any moments of akusala (unwholesome states) including all lobha, dosa and moha are a kind of illness and a weakness. The problem is not so much a lack of self esteem and importance but on the contrary the great importance and clinging to self even (and perhaps especially) at these times. Don’t we mind so very much about the pleasant feelings, the pleasant experiences through the senses? Don’t we find ourselves so very important, even when we compare ourselves unfavourably with others? At all these times, there is no concern, consideration or metta for the others. Perhaps when we talk about ‘depression as a disease’ and ‘sadness’, we’re referring to different degrees and intensities of dosa and tendencies to proliferate with negative thinking at these times. I used to work in a psychiatric centre in London and remember only too well some of the desperate cases and a really fine young man, in particular, who took his life. I certainly don’t underestimate the danger and have a lot of compassion (plus many less noble mental states, especially grief) for those who are struggling in this way. We never know when any of us may suffer in the same way, unless we’ve attained to a very high level of wisdom. .......... > > Conditional relations are something really intricate. .......... I know we agree on all the essential aspects, Num and I’m sure we’ll keep touching on these topics. Thanks also for the quotes from Akkosa Sutta and Malunkayaputta Sutta. Please let me also warn you that if i’m ever suffering from ‘depressive disorder’ your kind, understanding and compassionate assistance will be my first port of call;-)) Let me know if I've gone off-track or if you disagree with any points. Sarah P.s. I really like your reminders below, so I’m repeating them for a second time and no guarantees there won’t be a 3rd and a 4th quote;-)) *********** QUOTE2 from NUM > Pain (dukkhadukkha) is also dukkha. It's a painful feeling (dukkha > vedana). > it also has a characteristic of dukkha of tilakkhana. What's about > bodily > pleasant feeling (sukkhavedana). We like it. It's pleasurable, no pain > here > but even the pleasant feeling is still also has a characteristic of > dukkha as > well. > > Sorrow, lamentation, mental pain, despair, association with the dislike, > > separation from the liked, not getting what one wants, these are mental > suffering, occurs only in citta rooted in anger, dosa-mula-citta. > > The Buddha and the arahat are still subjected to bodily pain (vipaka) > but > they completely eradicate the mental suffering. All khandhas which > formed > into beings, animals, human or the Buddha in conventional sense are > still > have dukkha-lakkhana or sankara-dukkha. > > Upadanakhandha (translated as khandhas as the objects of attachments), > all > khandhas has potential to be a subject of attachment. Without wisdom > (panna), tilakkhanas cannot be vividly appreciated. We do not see the > reality > of khandhas, we grasp them as something permanent. > > Lobha can attach to any khandhas.> **********> 12695 From: dhamma101 Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:26am Subject: Sleep as state/sensation Dear all, I had posted a question with the same subject line this morning but it did not appear yet. (Now, I am beginning to doubt whether I really posted it, but the mind tells me that I did. But I have been wrong before so I am posting it "again" (?). If it appears twice please excuse me.) Sometimes when noticing the various dhammas, sleep takes over. What happens here? Is this to be considered the same as any other distraction? For example, I am noticing that I am hearing, listening, feeling, thinking and then the next thing I know the phone rings and I have already picked it up (missing the intermediate noticing steps of - phone is ringing, and i am reaching to pick it up). Not only that, I have already started talking and it is a few moments before I return to noticing - I am now talking on the phone. Is it the same thing when sleep takes over? That next thing I know (after I wake up) is I had fallen asleep and then resume noticing? What about any dreams? Are we aware that we are dreaming? If not, how do we know the next morning that we had dreamt? In advanced stages/states are people aware that they are sleeping (or there is the sensation of sleep, if that is more accurate?) and the same for dreaming? With regards DaiWen 12697 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry (and Lucy at the end), 1.You asked about ‘bondage’ in the quote at the end. Bondage as I undestand means to be ensnared. When we find the visible objects, sounds, tastes or any other objects enjoyable, *we* are ensnared, caught by the lobha that grasps and begs for more of the same. It leads to the ‘states of loss’, following the current of the river in ignorance. At the rare moments of panna, there is no bondage and *we* swim against the current for that instant. 2. In another post you ask about righteous indignation but go on to answer your own question about recognizing “evil, hateful words and deeds without aversion”. Like you say, of course it’s possible “but it doesn’t happen very often”. Recognizing this in itself as you do here, may be a condition for more equanimity and less aversion at these times. Understanding how few of our words are motivated by kusala in a day, perhaps we can appreciate and sympathise with others who experience the same or even less. As Num’s post just reminded me, in the Akkosa sutta we read about how when the guest comes to the house and doesn’t take the food or drink, that it then belongs again to the host. In the same way, we don’t have to ‘accept’ the unwholesome speech and deeds of others (but usually do;-)). 3. You asked in another one about sanna marking and not thinking. “So what thinks?” you asked. Citta is the leader in any experiencing, including thinking or experiencing through the mind-door. Of course other mental factors accompanying it -- in addition to sanna-- such as vitakka and vicara (initial and applied thought) play essential roles. You also ask if sanna remembers and if so whether it is responsible for all memory functions. Perhaps it just depends on what we mean by ‘remembers’. Usually we have an idea of a long story. If we think about the analogy of learning to use the computer keyboard. Each time there is a tap on the keys, there is a ‘marking’ or ‘remembering’ which collects or accumulates. After so many thousand such taps or marks, the idea forms of typing, but can we say which tap or which mark is the remembering? What we can say is that without any one of those taps or marks, the end product and the word we view on the screen would be just a little different. I don’t think we can say any cetasika in isolation is responsible for ‘all memory functions’ or any other function. The cetasikas condition each other and condition the cittas they arise with. At any time there are also may other factors and conditions at work. Still we speak about the ‘functions’ and ‘characteristics’ and ‘proximate causes’ of each. In another post you also ask about sanna only marking arammanas (objects). Remember sanna arises at every single moment and marks every single object, whether reality or concept. Arammanas refer to all these objects. 4. In your next post in front of me (I've got quite a few;-)), you ask about proximate cause and whether it works the ‘same as kamma’. It’s easy to find a connection, yet they have very different meanings. Let’s say at this moment we see a baby crying (conventionally speaking). Seeing of visible object is vipaka (result of kamma). Reflecting with kusala cittas (wholesome consciousness) on the suffering of the baby is the proximate cause of karuna (compassion) to arise. Picking up the baby and caring for it is kusala kamma patha. Cetana (intention) arises at each moment. In this context you ask about these phenomena being objects of satipatthana. The following are realities which can all be objects of satipatthana: seeing, visible object, feeling, compassion and intention. 5. Finally, you raise interesting points about conceit and ditthi (wrong view) arising with lobha (attachment). When we find ourselves important, don’t we ‘enjoy’ it? Attachment is the proximate cause of conceit. Even when we find ourselves inferior in anyway to others, there is attachment to oneself. Similarly, when there is ditthi, there is clinging and bondage to what is taken to be ‘right’. It feels plesant at the time. It’s good to know these points and to see how pernicious these states are. Pleasant feelings can accompany wholesome or unwholesome mental states and hence we cannot judge them by the feeling. ........... Larry, I’ve just done my weekly browse of your unanswered qustions very briefly (for me). Hope you find something of use and many thanks for keeping us all on our toes;-) I’m always really glad to see more detailed answers from Kom, Num and others and am happy to elaborate further or hear any corrections. .......... We didn’t hear from Lucy this weekend, did we? I wonder if you’re going too fast for her or if she’s just enjoying the Spring weather too much;-) Lucy, let us know if you have any concerns we can help with. Best wishes, Sarah p.s I've read this quote below so many times, but am still not quite sure what birdlime (monkeylime) or lampblack (dye) are????? =============== --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "....lobha has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime > (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot > pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lampblack. Its > proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. > Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking > (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the > great ocean." > > Hi all, what is bondage? > > Larry .............................................................................................................................. 12698 From: dhamma101 Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic question --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear DaiWen, > > Welcome to DSG and it's good to hear your questions. Thank you Ms Sarah for the welcome and the explanation. > DaiWan, I hope to hear plenty of your considerations and other responses. > Would you also kindly tell us where you live sometime too. I am living in the San Francisco Bay Area. > Thanks for introducing yourself and please don't feel intimidated by some > of the more detailed posts or use of Pali. OK. Thanks for the encouragement. With regards, DaiWen 12699 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I am very interested in finding out where I can get the book that you > are all studying about the Abhidhamma as you listed below. Please let > me know - I would appreciate it. Kom has already given a couple of websites where the book is avaialbe. The extracts which are being referred to are also being kept in a folder on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ If you or anyone else would like a hard copy of the book (free) please send an email to the addresses in a post under Books...at; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Glad to hear of your interest in abhidhamma and look forward to more discussion. Sarah ============ 12700 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayurveda Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > thank you for your notes on ayurveda, very interesting. In India I > bought > ayurveda bathpowder, it is excellent. .......... Let’s hope it prevents all these conditions;-) .......... >Now, the three of bile. phlegm and > winds are again also referred to in the subco I now try to translate. > (better for psg only?) In the dictionary it states for pitta: the organ > of > the bile as well as the fluids. .......... I certainly don’t know enough Pali to help with any translations. However, maybe it would be more appropriate to refer to the bilious humour being distrubed or bilious nature/condition,disorder. I personally think it’s a little misleading in the context to refer to the organ and fluids. I think we can also refer to noticing a change in the bilious or phlegmatic hue or appearance. Alternatively as with so many pali terms, it may easier to leave it with a footnote. .......... > I appreciate your series from the Mahavamsa, what a good preparation of > your > trip. I hope to hear about all the places you will visit. .......... Thanks Nina. I remember before that you had read the Mahavamsa very thoroughly and referred to it in one of your Sri Lanka reports. It’s taken a long time for me to take an interest in the historical details and see the relevance and importance of them to the growth of panna now. Actually, it’s really thanks to the questioning by many people here about the validity of the commentaries and abhidhamma that has encouraged me to research a little and in the process, like Kom, I’ve found it most inspiring to read about the extraordinary wisdom and compassion of the great arahants. Thanks for the encouragement and I’ll try to add more detail about the places we’ll be visiting. I may check and incorporate some of your own writing too;-) Hopefully, Christine, Betty, Sukin and Jon and anyone else we meet will add comments afterwards as well. Sarah ========================= 12701 From: dhamma101 Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions Dear Ms Nina, thank you for explaining. [...] > D: A part of my mind wants to see the beautiful mountains and flowers > > (craving?) and a part of my mind thinks it will just make me > > sad so better not to see (aversion?). > > Or is this just plain schizophrenia? > N: Just a natural, normal reaction. You are right that there are craving and > aversion alternately. You can see how fast all these moments change, no time > to do anything about them. Yes, I saw that these changes occur pretty rapidly. But sometimes there is a lingering effect. Anything I do later may have this sadness lingering. If different cittas arise from moment to moment, then what I see as "lingering" is the same (or similar) citta arising again and again in succession? Also, the conventional term of "brooding" also gives an impression that the same state of mind continues to exist. Is this due to unwholesome accumulations that we "remember" and give rise to such memories? (I don't know if it is accurate to say we give rise to such "cittas" because my impression is that cittas cannot be regulated.) > I hope you will write more about your different observations, we can all > learn from them, > with best wishes for your study and with appreciation, > Nina. Thank you for you encouragement. I am very honored to be allowed to be here and I appreciate it. On a related note, Ms Sarah mentioned in one of her posts that she felt overcome with emotion when reading some of the suttas. I felt the same way when I read your books. I felt much gratitude. The tears and choking may be due to akusala Citta (or vipaka?), but on this group I am learning how to even analyze that. I am so glad there is no limit on the number questions I can ask because I have too many of them. With regards, DaiWen 12703 From: dhamma101 Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:13am Subject: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Manji, > In Japan and China there is this word "nin", and the kanji has a > character for sword over the radical for mind. Living under the sword. A > friend from Canada says there is no time to waste, and Guatama Buddha > talks about this sense of urgency. I hope it is ok to add some language related information here though it is not directly related to the discussion at hand. The chinese word is ren3. The explantion given for that in the online dictionary is "blade/knife in the heart". As you know in Chinese the character/radical for mind is the same as heart (xin). I was told by some Chinese friends that in China you see this character in Buddhist people's places. It means to endure (although the person who told me the meaning said "patience"). If I may share my favorite online English<-->Chinese dictionary/website, it is http://www.zhongwen.com. I found it to be a very good resource for foreigners to learn Chinese. There are links to Chinese philosophical books and all kinds of dictionaries. I like the living under the sword interpretation better (and more palatable). Knife in the heart seems like death. With regards, DaiWen 12704 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sleep as state/sensation Dear DaiWen, Hope you don't mind some non-expert comment from another beginner, I am sure others will give a more correct analysis anyway. You said: I had posted a question with the same subject line this morning but it did not appear yet. (Now, I am beginning to doubt whether I really posted it, but the mind tells me that I did. But I have been wrong before so I am posting it "again" (?). If it appears twice please excuse me.) To me this shows a very open mind, one which is aware of its limitations and open to the possibility of being deluded. Sometimes when noticing the various dhammas, sleep takes over. What happens here? Is this to be considered the same as any other distraction? I may be over generalizing or I may be totally wrong, but what I have noticed is when we give more importance to certain activities over others then some dhammas seem to be a hinderance or distraction. If we understand that any and every dhamma arises because of conditions, then nothing would seem out of place. Sleep and drowsiness arises because of conditions just like any other dhamma. For example, I am noticing that I am hearing, listening, feeling, thinking and then the next thing I know the phone rings and I have already picked it up (missing the intermediate noticing steps of - phone is ringing, and i am reaching to pick it up). Not only that, I have already started talking and it is a few moments before I return to noticing - I am now talking on the phone. I think, and this would sound controversial in another discussion list, (or maybe even here, since I may be wrong) that once there is an 'I' hearing, feeling, thinking etc., in other words once there is a volition to 'be' mindful of what goes on from moment to moment, there is in actuality no real 'sati'. Why? Because with 'self' one forms concepts and sees only that. Besides it seems to me that one is feeding atta sanna. Is it the same thing when sleep takes over? That next thing I know (after I wake up) is I had fallen asleep and then resume noticing? What about any dreams? Are we aware that we are dreaming? If not, how do we know the next morning that we had dreamt? When during sleep there are no experience through the five sense doors, so there is a difference between sleep and when one wakes up. However when one dreams, it is 'thinking' just like when we get lost in thoughts and don't notice what has happened around us. During any other time, at least for me, we are also only thinking even if we think we are aware of realities. But the experience of realities are also there, but there is no sati and panna arising to be aware of them. In advanced stages/states are people aware that they are sleeping (or there is the sensation of sleep, if that is more accurate?) and the same for dreaming? During sleep there are only bhavanga cittas( except during dream), and the object of these cittas, which is and remains the same throughout life is unknowable(except maybe by a Buddha). About dreaming, I think that high levels of panna must be able to know, but I'm not sure. Hope this has helped in some way at least. Best wishes, Sukin. 12705 From: dhamma101 Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic question --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Daiwan, > > Let me first welcome you to DSG. I am sure you will find > many excellent friends here. Thank you. I feel safe here. :) [...] > Our consciousness rises and falls away according to its > conditions (our accumulations). We should learn to know the > realities as they truly are (as dhamma, as materials / > mentality). I notice too many things and that is part of the problem for me because that evokes the reactions. So the right thing to (try to) do is to notice _everything_ but not react to it, right? And there is no other way but to have to go through this stage of noticing _everything_ or training to notice everything. Thanks DaiWen 12706 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Dear G, Actually I am only now little by little, beginning to see how deeply I live in the world of concepts. I find myself thinking about concepts only to get attached to the new concept formed. Only I also understand that with countless lifetime of accumulated ignorace I cannot expect to have sati soon. Also with reasonable conviction I understand that as long as I have 'good' friends to remind me about what is important, I am on the right path. Best wishes, Sukin. ps. so can we expect to see your photo too? -----Original Message----- From: goglerr [mailto:goglerr@y...] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:48 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Sukin, Thanks for your insight and appreciate that. ...smile. G. ps - saw some of u guys photos....cute! --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukin" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > > > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. > > > Today I did an experiment. I was reclining on my sofa and felt pressure > on my elbow, nothing unsusual. I looked at my arm from where I was, > to the area under where the elbow is supposed to be and felt the sensation > around there. Then I moved my attention slowly to another part of my arm > keeping note of the sensation and I felt as if the sensation originated from > that > other place. I move up and down to another two locations, it was the same. > What I conclude from this, is that rupa contacts another rupa at a specific > area, but the citta is not localized. The thinking of consciousness as > arising > from a certain specific location I think is conceptual. > But I may be wrong, not sure.....? > > > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled..... > > If i'm not wrong, the heart base that we are talking about, is a rupa which > arises > and falls perhaps somewhat similar in nature to the other pasada rupas, just > a > tiny area never lasting more than a moment. > > Regarding the status of brain, I just asked somebody a few days ago, the > answer > I got was that it was the center of physical activity of this body. > Hope this helps. > Best, > Sukin. > > > > Goglerr > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott 12707 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] : only realities are objects of Satipathanna Hi Nina To me, you are infering the meaning from the sutta. When the sutta mention about "without comprehending the all", it could mean the five khandhas in conventional term and not in Abhidhamma terms. I don't think anywhere in Sati Sutta that imply looking at objects is not for the development of Sati. Without doubt that Sati could be developed to such a level as describe in Abhidhamma, thats does not leave us not to be in sati with objects. Even breath is a concept as well as an object :) and sati suttas always starts with the breath. Cheers Kind regards Ken O --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken O, > As Suan explained, the Buddha taught ultimate realities, also in the > suttas. > He taught about the five khandhas, the ayatanas, the elements, and those > are > nama and rupa classified in different ways. He taught these so that > people > would develop right understanding of them. You asked also in which > commentaries. Time and again Buddhaghosa stresses vipassana panna, and > the > object of vipassana: the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas. For > instance, > Kindred Sayings IV, Ch 3, §26, Comprehension: Without fully knowing, > without > comprehending the all,. monks, without detaching himself from, without > abandoning the all, a man is incapable of extinguishing dukkha.... It is > by > not fully knowing the eye... the tongue... that a man is incapable of > extinguishing dukkha.. > The Co states that this sutta refers to the three pari~n~nas, which > include > the stages of vipassana ~naa.na. > I do not know how many Co texts you need, but there are countless texts. > Nina. > >> > >> k: Could u kindly provide commentaries that > >> support that only reality is > >> the object of satipatthana. 12708 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > p.s I've read this quote below so many times, but > am still not quite sure > what birdlime (monkeylime) or lampblack (dye) are????? > =============== > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "....lobha has the > characteristic of > grasping an object, like birdlime > > (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, > like meat put in a hot > > pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like > the dye of lampblack. Its > > proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things > that lead to bondage. > > Swelling with the current of craving, it should > be regarded as taking > > (beings) with it to states of loss, as a > swift-flowing river does to the > > great ocean." > > > > Hi all, what is bondage? > > > > Larry Sarah, I have never seen monkey lime in use either, but I have heard it explained this way. Sticky monkey lime is what one uses to capture a monkey. When a monkey sticks one of its paw to it, it is stuck. Hoping to get free, it uses another paw to help pushing. The other paw also gets stuck. The same goes on with the other two paws. Finally, being desperate, it uses its muzzle to help pushing, which also gets stuck, leaving the desperate monkey free for the monkey hunter to do as he pleases with it (didn't the commentary mention roasting it over a fire?) Hence, when we see attachment, we can reflect on monkey lime. We are stuck to samsara because of it. Ignorant, we do not know how to get free from it. We can reflect on the Buddha's compassion: without his teaching, we are like a monkey trying to get free (from lobha) by doing all the wrong things (by trying to satisfy it). Being stuck, death, illness, ages, mara, sufferings, etc., all have their ways with us. kom 12709 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:57am Subject: Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Dear All, Dependent Arising appears in the texts as both an abstract statement of universal law and as the particular application of that law to the specific problem, the problem of Suffering. The standard description goes from Ignorance, which is described as the primary root of the series, through all the other links to Aging and Death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair .. the 'mass of suffering', and then again back to Ignorance, round and round, from 'beginningless time'. I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, different starting points of the cycle, and some with different wording and additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and ingenious diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using models of three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within one mind moment. Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre of any diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle. (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So many moments of avijja and tanha - accumulating more and more - so much time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let alone over one or many lifetimes....). The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension of feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at the awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply wisdom that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), and dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) possible here. No other way? If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead to joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the development of progressively higher good qualities. So...instead of the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is usual, it continues with Conviction (faith), which proceeds to take the flow from Ignorance into another direction, a skillful one, leading ultimately to Liberation, no longer returning to Ignorance at all. Conviction (faith) is described as a modified or diluted form of Ignorance. Ignorance is no longer the totally blind kind, but is imbued with a grain of understanding, which prods the mind to proceed in a good direction, eventually leading to Knowledge of Things as They Are and Liberation. Feels right to me - at least the part rings true.... But such a slim chance, with human birth so rare, and rarer still to hear the true teachings.... As the Cycle is continuously revolving, and is not just a one time occurrence, how is it possible to condition/'cause to arise' such a skillful sequence when suffering has already arisen? And how is any change possible with no control over what arises? metta, Christine 12710 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:44pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 4 (11-15) Hi Larry, Just wanted to say I'm appreciating your enthusism and dedication in posting the ADL quotes. I had a problem for a while - becoming confused by taking in everything posted (correct or incorrect) and not filtering it. Now I find I leave the chapter until weeks end, go to escibe archive and read the whole thread in one go. This works for me, but doesn't allow for joining in the discussion. Maybe as I become surer in knowledge, I'll go back to reading daily. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 4, paragraphs 11 - 15 > 12711 From: portsofspeech Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:19pm Subject: Mind Hello. I've read Thai Theravada texts, Sri Lankan and Burmese, amd I noticed that in some of the Thai Theravada text (Thai forest tradition) they speak of mind as a eternal thing (primordial awareness, etc.) like they do in Mahayana. While Sri Lankan and Burmese texts talk of it as anatta. Is there a real, concrete difference between the ways that some of the Thai Forest Theravada schools define the mind and the Burmese / Sri Lankan, or is it merely a difference in emphasis or terminology? Thanks! Metta 12712 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 4 (11-15) Hi Christine, I think it is helpful to read the whole chapter _before_ I start posting it in pieces, then read it again several times by the piece. Basically this is the whole story and it is pretty much the same as in 'Abhidhammattha Sangaha' only not as much detail. So I think it is safe to say no one is entirely understanding it, otherwise they would be an arahat and I'm pretty sure arahats don't type. All we can do is go over it again and again; and I'm sure if we do this it will poke some holes in the colander of an assumed self. So I would like to encourage both you and Lucy and everyone else to spill your brains and not try to hold on to a safe image. If this produces aversion (dosa), GOOD, that's in the lesson plan!!! metta, Larry ------------------ Christine wrote: Hi Larry, Just wanted to say I'm appreciating your enthusism and dedication in posting the ADL quotes. I had a problem for a while - becoming confused by taking in everything posted (correct or incorrect) and not filtering it. Now I find I leave the chapter until weeks end, go to escibe archive and read the whole thread in one go. This works for me, but doesn't allow for joining in the discussion. Maybe as I become surer in knowledge, I'll go back to reading daily. metta, Christine 12713 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:18pm Subject: 4 Great Elements Hi Everybody Thanks for you responses on the Heart Base and to Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo for sending the link to Ledi Sayadaw's Manual of Light. I'm trying to clarify what the "Earth element" is. It is often translated as "extention" but that seems very abstract. I was thinking that it is the "solid aspect" of things but Ledi Sayadaw doesn't agree with that idea. He calls it "hardness or softness" of things (Manual of Light) and also translates it as extention, but he says it does not compose even the slightest part of an atom. Despite that, I'm toying with the idea of thinking of it as "matter" or "form." It seems to me that the Four Great Elements need (at minimum) to constitute physical reality. There must be some substance comprising that reality I would think. Extention, cohesion, distention, and heat are characteristics of phenomena but do not indicate what it is, that is extending, coalescing, expanding, or heating. Is it matter and energy? I'm wondering, what is the substance, if any, that is called "extention? I'd appreciate any ideas. Thanks. TG 12714 From: manji Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:42pm Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Hi DaiWen, Yes this kanji can be taken for endurance, and also relates to another kanji, which in Japanese is "gyou". This nin and gyou seem to relate well with renunciation. Lately this entire weekend was on renunciation. So yes, there is dukkha. This may seem quite odd, but it seems that this "there is dukkha" is not that all objects are dukkha, instead it is that there is dukkha arising with all objects. I think this distinction is most important. Some rambling: (I am using renunciate for a being "living renunciation") "There is suffering" is for the renunciate. This would make sense since no thing possesses a permanent, eternal (!) and independent nature. If all things carried dukkha then there could be no ending of it, and considering there are pleasant feeling arising without dukkha, what seems to happen (for the renunciate) is that there is a general "distaste" arising with all rupa, because of knowing/seeing "dependent origination". Specifically I believe that "there is cause" can be understood more conventionally or with respects to the renunciate, there is a cause of this "general" suffering arising with all rupa. In this case what is this one cause? So on the surface it seems that one must endure this dukkha, which only becomes more powerful when knowing "there is cause". However, for the renunciate identification with dukkha is the cause. The lord said "there is suffering", which is quite different than "the world is suffering" or that any rupa is the cause of suffering. Knowing this, knowing cause, for the renunciate seems to sever the ties of "self-identification" and leads to the wisdom of annata. There is cessation, and there is path. Otherwise stated, cessation is arising with the wisdom of anatta, which arises with the path. However, with regards to nibanna and paranibbana, there can be no causation of nibanna as ... (wow, insight) need not say more. So about renunciation, it is most auspicious, and there is sincere effort. With regards to tantra, just being mindful of renunciations, renunciates, and the practice serves to cultivate this renunciation aspect. So for the renunciate it is thus said... "There is suffering". This is most auspicious. All of which seem to reflect the traditions of our Christian brothers as well. > -----Original Message----- > From: dhamma101 [mailto:dhamma101@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:13 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide > > Dear Manji, > > > In Japan and China there is this word "nin", and the kanji has a > > character for sword over the radical for mind. Living under the > sword. A > > friend from Canada says there is no time to waste, and Guatama > Buddha > > talks about this sense of urgency. > > I hope it is ok to add some language related information here > though it is not directly related to the discussion at hand. > The chinese word is ren3. The explantion given for that > in the online dictionary is "blade/knife in the heart". > As you know in Chinese the character/radical for mind > is the same as heart (xin). I was told by some Chinese friends > that in China you see this character in Buddhist people's places. > It means to endure (although the person who told me the > meaning said "patience"). If I may share my favorite > online English<-->Chinese dictionary/website, it is > http://www.zhongwen.com. I found it to be a very good > resource for foreigners to learn Chinese. There are links > to Chinese philosophical books and all kinds of dictionaries. > > I like the living under the sword interpretation better > (and more palatable). Knife in the heart seems like death. > > With regards, > DaiWen > > > > 12715 From: manji Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:56pm Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation (Some Clarification) "There is suffering" is for all being, but this past post in particular is on renunciation and a being living renunciation (monks perhaps could be read here), and living "guarding the doors". -manji- http://www.shugyokai.org > -----Original Message----- > From: manji [mailto:manji@s...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:43 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: Dosa and Renunciation was [dsg] Re: choice and suicide > > Hi DaiWen, > > Yes this kanji can be taken for endurance, and also relates to another > kanji, which in Japanese is "gyou". This nin and gyou seem to relate > well with renunciation. Lately this entire weekend was on renunciation. > So yes, there is dukkha. This may seem quite odd, but it seems that this > "there is dukkha" is not that all objects are dukkha, instead it is that > there is dukkha arising with all objects. I think this distinction is > most important. > > Some rambling: (I am using renunciate for a being "living renunciation") > > "There is suffering" is for the renunciate. 12716 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:13pm Subject: Re: Dependent Arising - a couple of questions --- Dear Christine, Im afraid my comments dont really address your points ... When we think about the length of samsara what is actually happening: What are the cittas rooted in during that time? Does it come with much pleasant feeling and great gratitude to the Buddha that he taught the way out of samsara so perfectly and completely- if so the citta may be kusala. Or does it come with trepidation and worry; if this is the case then it is because of clinging to an idea of "me" who is in samsara (akusala). For the one who is developing insight it matters not in the least whether the first or second scenario occurs as both should be understood. When there is the second reaction, conditioned by atta sanna and clinging, one can understand how the link of upadana (under the section of selfview)in the Paticcasamuppada is completing its function. Then there is a breaking down of the idea of anyone who can do anything. There is the growth of understanding that sees only different phenomena -aspects of the 12 links of the Paticcasamuppadda. We can think about Paticcasamuppada as a whole in a conceptual way but at moments of insight only one dhamma -out of the many that are co-arising- can be taken as object. It could be feeling as you mention below or it could be craving or it could be upadana or it could be one of the six sense bases or .... When we think about breaking the cycle at feeling this is just thinking- but that thinking is part of the cycle and there are dhammas arising at that time that can be known. It is by seeing dhammas as they are , countless times, correctly without desire for result, that the nature of dhammas can be seen. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Dependent Arising appears in the texts as both an abstract statement > of universal law and as the particular application of that law to the > specific problem, the problem of Suffering. > The standard description goes from Ignorance, which is described as > the primary root of the series, through all the other links to Aging > and Death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair .. the 'mass > of suffering', and then again back to Ignorance, round and round, > from 'beginningless time'. > I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, different > starting points of the cycle, and some with different wording and > additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and ingenious > diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using models of > three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within one mind > moment. > Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre of any > diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle. > (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So many > moments of avijja and tanha - accumulating more and more - so much > time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let alone > over one or many lifetimes....). > The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the > ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to > break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" > and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding > to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension of > feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at the > awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply wisdom > that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), and > dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) > possible here. No other way? > > If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a > way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead to > joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the > development of progressively higher good qualities. So...instead of > the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is usual, it continues > with Conviction (faith), which proceeds to take the flow from > Ignorance into another direction, a skillful one, leading ultimately > to Liberation, no longer returning to Ignorance at all. Conviction > (faith) is described as a modified or diluted form of Ignorance. > Ignorance is no longer the totally blind kind, but is imbued with a > grain of understanding, which prods the mind to proceed in a good > direction, eventually leading to Knowledge of Things as They Are and > Liberation. > > Feels right to me - at least the > part rings true.... But such a slim chance, with human birth so > rare, and rarer still to hear the true teachings.... As the Cycle is > continuously revolving, and is not just a one time occurrence, how is > it possible to condition/'cause to arise' such a skillful sequence > when suffering has already arisen? And how is any change possible > with no control over what arises? > > metta, > Christine 12717 From: azita gill Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 Great Elements --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Everybody > dear TG > you asked: > It seems to me that the Four Great Elements need (at > minimum) to constitute > physical reality. There must be some substance > comprising that reality I > would think. Extention, cohesion, distention, and > heat are characteristics > of phenomena but do not indicate what it is, that is > extending, coalescing, > expanding, or heating. Is it matter and energy? > I'm wondering, what is the > substance, if any, that is called "extention? > > I'd appreciate any ideas. Thanks. > > TG Below comes from a Buddhist dictionary, The 4 physical elements[dhatu or maha-bhuta], popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. ----------- "whateveris characterised by hardness [thaddha-lakkkhana] is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion [abandhana] or fluidity, the water-element; by heating [paripacana], the fire or heat-element; by strengtheningor supporting[vitthambhana], the wind or motion-element. All 4 are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If the earthelement predominates, the material object is called solid" I think for the purpose of developing the wisdom to know realities as they really are, awareness is only aware of that which appears e.g. hot or cold, hard or soft, motion or pressure. It is not "what is it that is hot" just "hot". I hope this helps you a little, TG. I liked your question. May all beings be happy, Azita > > 12718 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 4:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry, Kom, Sarah and ADL group; Nina put some more explicit detail about lobha and its analogy in Cetasikas. I really like reading about character and nature of dhamma. It really reminds me how little I really know about my defilement. I feel like it's my long time companioin, being with me since I get up in the morning until I jump into bed. No matter where I go, It goes along with me. It's so well disguised and so deceitful. At the end, I also add some more about lobha (greed) from the section of small items, Vibanga, the book of analysis, PTS 1969 p.470-471, U Thittila. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Dhammasangani (1059), in the section where it deals with lobha as hetu, gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to illustrate its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more subtle such as hoping or expecting. It is a "bondage" because it binds beings in the round of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind (2 See the Atthasalini II, Book II, Chapter II, 362.367.). The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like "monkey lime". Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. In proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. The Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives a similar definition (1 See also Dhammasangani 389). Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. Monkey lime was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Maha-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, 7, The monkey) that a hunter sets a trap of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from "folly and greed" do not get trapped. We read: But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and handles it with one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I'll free my paw, he seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws he seizes them with one foot,. and that too sticks fast. To free both paws and the one foot, he lays hold of them with the other foot, but that too sticks fast. To flee both paws and both feet he lays hold of them with his muzzle: but that too sticks fast. So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, thus fallen on misfortune... In this way the hunter can catch him and roast him over the fire. The Buddha explained to the monks that the monk who is not mindful gets trapped by the "five sensual elements ": visible object, sound, scent, savour and tangible object. When one is taken in by these objects, "Mara gets access" (2 Mara is that which is evil, akusala, and a wider sense: everything which is bound up with dukkha.). Clinging is dangerous, it leads to one's own destruction. Are we at this moment taken in by one of the "five sensual elements"? Then we are in fact "trapped". At the moment of lobha we enjoy the object of clinging and we do not see that lobha makes us enslaved, we do not see the danger of lobha. Therefore it is said that the proximate cause of lobha is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Growing into a river of craving, lobha takes us to the "states of loss". Lobha can motivate unwholesome deeds which are capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. So long as lobha has not been eradicated we are subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Small items, vibhanga: Therein what are 'the three bad roots'? Greed, hatred, dullness. Therein what is greed? That which is lusting, infatuation, seduction, compliance, passion, passionate, lust, infatuation of consciousness, wishing, yearning, clinging, greediness, omniverous greediness, cleaving, slough, allurement, deceit, genetrix, fettering genetrix, sempstress, ensnarer, river, extending, (fishing) line, spreading, urger, consort, hankering, guide to becoming, forest, jungle, intimacy, fondness, (greedy) consideration, kin, want, wanting, state of wanting, wanting visible (object), wanting audible (object), wanting odorous (object), wanting sapid (object), wanting tangible (object), wanting gains, wanting wealth, wanting sons, wanting life, muttering, excessive muttering, act of muttering, state of muttering, self-indulgence, being self-indulgent, state of being self-indulgent, agitation, desire for the nicer, incestuous lust, lawless greed, longing, act of longing, entreating, liking, imploring, craving for sense pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming, craving for form, craving for the formless, craving for cessation, craving for visible (object), craving for audible (object), craving for odorous (object), craving for sapid (object), craving for tangible (object), craving for ideational (object), flood, bond, tie, attachment, obstruction, hindrance, covering, bondage, depravity, latent tendency, usurping, creeper, avarice, root of suffering, source of suffering, origin of suffering, mara's snare, mara's fish-hook, mara's domain, rive of craving, net of craving, leash of craving, ocean of craving, covetousness, the bad root of greed. This is called greed. Therein what is hatred?. . . . . . . . . +++++++++++++++++++++ Best wishes. Num 12719 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:30 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) > > > "....lobha has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime > (lit. 'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot > pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lampblack. Its > proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. > Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking > (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the > great ocean." > > Hi all, what is bondage? > > Larry > >From Num's Post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m8707.html It [lobha] is a "bondage" because it binds beings in the round of births. kom 12720 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Sarah, concerning 'what thinks', I guess my tendency is to assume a self that thinks. Beyond that, I wonder how reason and logic come about. There is certainly a great tendency to be attached to thinking, not only as a self, but also as valuing clarity of mind. Attempting to grasp clarity or insight is futile simply because it is impermanent, but also because there isn't a grasper. More often than not, there's nothing there but bewilderment, moha. Even this bewilderment seems to be based on desire to see or desire to be a self. I guess the trick is to let go of that desire to be someone. just rambling, Larry 12721 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Kom, I haven't had time to read Num's email yet, but here is a quick question for you. What does this mean: "Its [lobha's] proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage." Does all enjoyment lead to bondage? thanks, Larry 12722 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:44pm Subject: ADL ch. 4 (16-21) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 4, paragraphs 16 - 21 16. Taking the body for self is a form of wrong view, in Pali: ditthi. Ditthi is a cetasika which can arise with lobha-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment). There are eight types of lobha-mula-citta and of these types four are accompanied by ditthi. When lobha-mula-citta with ditthi arises there is wrong view at that moment. 17. There are different kinds of ditthi. The belief in a 'self' is one kind of ditthi. When we take mental phenomena or physical phenomena for 'self' there is ditthi. Some people believe that there is a self which exists in this life and which will continue to exist after this lifespan is over. This is the ' eternity-belief'. Others believe in a self which, existing only in this life, will be annihilated after this lifespan is over. This is the 'annihilation- belief'. Another form of ditthi is the belief that there is no kamma which produces vipaka, that deeds do not bring their results. There have always been people in different countries who think that they can be purified of their imperfections merely by ablution in water or by prayers. It is their belief that the results of ill deeds they committed can thus be warded off. They do not know that each deed can bring about its own result. We can only purify ourselves of imperfections if the wisdom is cultivated. If one thinks that deeds do not bring about their appropriate results one may easily be inclined to believe that the cultivation of wholesomeness is useless. This kind of belief may lead to ill deeds and to the corruption of society. 18. Of the eight types of lobha-mula-citta four types arise with wrong view (ditthi); they are called in Pali: ditthigata-sampavutta (sampayutta means: associated with). Four types of lobha-mula-dtta arise without wrong view; they are ditthigata-vippayutta (vippayutta means: dissociated from). 19. As regards the feeling which accompanies the lobha mula-citta, lobha-mula-cittas can arise either with pleasant feeling or with indifferent feeling, never with unpleasant feeling. The lobha is more intense when it arises with pleasant feeling. Of the four types of lobha-mula-citta which are accompanied by ditthi, two types arise with pleasant feeling(somanassa), they are somanassa-sahagata (accompanied by pleasant feeling) ; two types arise with indifferent feeling (upekkha, they are upekkha-sahagata. For example, when one clings to the view that there is a self which will continue to exist, the citta can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Of the four lobha-mula-cittas arising without ditthi, two types are accompanied by pleasant feeling (somanassa-sahagata) and two types are accompanied by indifferent feeling (upekkha-sahagata). Thus, of the eight types of lobha-mula-citta, four types arise with pleasant feeling and four types arise with indifferent feeling. 20. In classifying lobha-mula-cittas there is yet another distinction to be made. Lobha-mula-cittas can be 'asankharika' (unprompted) or 'sasankharika' (prompted). Asankharika is sometimes translated as 'not induced', 'unprompted' or 'spontaneous'; sasankharika is translated as 'induced' or 'prompted'. The 'visuddhimagga' states about lobha-mula-citta that it is sasankharika 'when it is with consciousness which is sluggish and urged on'. The lobha-mula-cittas which are sasankharika can be prompted by the advice or request of someone else, or they arise induced by one's own previous consideration. Even when they are 'prompted' by one's own consideration, they are sasankharika; the cittas are 'sluggish and urged on'. Thus, when lobha is asankharika it is more intense than when it is sasankharika. 21. Of the four lobha-mula-cittas arising with ditthi, two types are asankharika and two types are sasankharika. As regards the lobha-mula-cittas arising without ditthi, two types are asankharika and two types are sasankharika. Thus, of the eight lobha-mula-cittas, four types are asankharika and four types are sasankharika. 12723 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Dear Christine & All, I’d just like to add a few more comments to Rob K's which I thought addressed your main points and concerns beautifully . .......... Chris, We need to know the difference between thinking and understanding. Thinking about avijja and tanha and future lives is not the same as beginning to understand their characteristics now. Whether we classify them in a khandha, an external ayatana, as cetasikas, as 2 or the unwholesome roots or as links in paticca, they can only ever be understood when they arise at this moment. Gradually, as panna develops and there is more confidence in the conditioned nature of these phenomena, any ideas of annihilation or eternalism disappear. The sotapanna has finally eradicated any doubts about self and knows the process must continue as it is now at the end of life. How could it be otherwise? These phenomena are not in anyone’s control and just as there are conditions for them to arise now, so there will be tomorrow, next week, at the end of life as we know it. We may reflect on the shortness of life and the urgency of following the path. However, as Rob suggested, it depends on the present mind states whether this is of any use of not. If they are unwholesome and accompanied by worry, fear of clinging to the phantom self, they are quite useless. A moment of awareness of thinking as a reality is more precious than long stories about lifetimes. Developing awareness now and understanding more about anatta is the only way to really be encouraged and understand the sense of urgency. At these times, there is no clinging to results, no concern about tomorrow or next week or the end of life again. You mention references to “stop at the awareness without going onto craving” and “breaking the cycle’ instead of “yielding to craving” and also “planned striving”. Of course, it’s very appealing to think that we can do something. However, there is a very big difference between being aware of conditioned realities (and yes, awareness like craving arises in the javana process after seeing, hearing and so on contact their respective objects) and being able to stop or yield to what will be arising regardless of any wishes or view of self. We may think that there is no more self-view and that we’re only referring to awareness, intention, wisdom and so on, but the idea of control and selection and the desire for certain phenomena to arise are very, very deep-rooted. Recognising this is a very big step forward as I see it. You mention the slim chance of human rebirth and also wonder about what else you can read to help understand these areas. I’m sure you’ve read all there is about paticca samuppada in texts such as the Visuddhimagga (I know you have this one) and in suttas. I know you’ve also been following Rob’s series. I think it’s not a question of more reading (though I don’t wish to discourage this) but of really considering the applicability at this moment and developing understanding of what is conditioned already, regardless of whether you’re working in the hospital, worrying about your kids, talking to Rusty, your dog or whatever. The aim is not to become an abhidhamma scholar but to really understand (i,e put into practice) what we have heard and read so much about. The test is always now. Chris, I’ve been rather direct but I know you’ll be able to appreciate that I have your welfare at heart(!!) even if it could be expressed more eloquently. Let me leave you with one verse in a short section from Nina’s “Rupas” which I hope will be a real inspiration as it relates to the peace of mind that comes from understanding the uncontrollable nature of phenomena. It is also an example of what we study in the Abhidhamma being clearly shown in the verse: http://www.DhammaStudy.com/Rupas10.html ********** QUOTE >We read in the “Therigatha” (Psalms of the Sisters) about people in the Buddha’s time who were disturbed by problems and could not find mental stability. When they were taught Abhidhamma they could develop right understanding and even attain enlightenment. While one studies the elements, the sense-doors, the objects, in short, all ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), the truth that there is no being or self becomes more evident. We read in Canto 57 about Bhikkhuni (Bhikkhuni means nun or sister.) Vijaya who could not find peace of mind. After she had been taught Abhidhamma she developed right understanding of realities and attained arahatship (The highest stage of enlightenment.). We read: Four times, nay five, I sallied from my cell, And roamed afield to find the peace of mind I lacked, and governance of thoughts I could not bring into captivity. Then to a Bhikkhuni I came and asked Full many a question of my doubts. To me she taught Dhamma: the elements, Organ and object in the life of sense, (And then the factors of the Nobler life:) The Ariyan truths, the Faculties, the Powers, The Eightfold Path, leading to utmost good. I heard her words, her bidding I obeyed. While passed the first watch of the night there rose Long memories of the bygone line of lives. While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye, Purview celestial, I clarified (The Heavenly Eye is the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings.) While passed the last watch of the night, I burst And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. Then, letting joy and blissful ease of mind Suffuse my body, seven days I sat, Ere stretching out cramped limbs I rose again. Was it not rent indeed, that muffling mist?> ********** Christine, please let us know your further thoughts and comments. Be sure that many people here will be having the same doubts and concerns as you and anytime you share these with us, you’ll be doing us all a favour. with metta, Sarah ===================================================== 12724 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:11 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) > > > Hi Kom, I haven't had time to read Num's email > yet, but here is a quick > question for you. What does this mean: "Its > [lobha's] proximate cause is > seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage." > > Does all enjoyment lead to bondage? > The 2nd noble truth, dukkha samutaya, the cause of suffering, is specifically lobha. As long as we still have lobha (to anything), we will certainly be reborn. An anagami is still reborn because he/she still has lobha (conceit, dina mittha, etc.). All enjoyment (lobha) leads to rebirth. An arahat still have pleasant mental feeling and pleasant bodily feeling. However, they are not attached to those feeling, and are free from the bondage. kom 12725 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Num, is lobha mula citta the same as tanha, or does tanha have a wider meaning as regards the second noble truth (cause of dukkha)? thanks, Larry 12726 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Thanks Kom, I guess this leads back to Christine's question about paticcasamuppada. With feeling as condition, craving arises; the proximate cause of attachment is pleasant feeling. Same thing? And the undoing of it is seeing that pleasant feeling is undesirable because impermanent? I'll have to wait until tomorrow for the answer; it's dream time, Larry ------------------ Kom wrote: The 2nd noble truth, dukkha samutaya, the cause of suffering, is specifically lobha. As long as we still have lobha (to anything), we will certainly be reborn. An anagami is still reborn because he/she still has lobha (conceit, dina mittha, etc.). All enjoyment (lobha) leads to rebirth. An arahat still have pleasant mental feeling and pleasant bodily feeling. However, they are not attached to those feeling, and are free from the bondage. kom 12727 From: goglerr Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 4 (16-21) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 4, paragraphs 16 - 21 > > 16. Taking the body for self is a form of wrong view, in Pali: ditthi. > Ditthi is a cetasika which can arise with lobha-mula-cittas (cittas > rooted in attachment). There are eight types of lobha-mula-citta and of > these types four are accompanied by ditthi. When lobha-mula-citta with > ditthi arises there is wrong view at that moment. > > 17. There are different kinds of ditthi. The belief in a 'self' is one > kind of ditthi. When we take mental phenomena or physical phenomena for > 'self' there is ditthi. Some people believe that there is a self which > exists in this life and which will continue to exist after this lifespan > is over. This is the ' eternity-belief'. Others believe in a self which, > existing only in this life, will be annihilated after this lifespan is > over. This is the 'annihilation- belief'. Another form of ditthi is the > belief that there is no kamma which produces vipaka, that deeds do not > bring their results. There have always been people in different > countries who think that they can be purified of their imperfections > merely by ablution in water or by prayers. It is their belief that the > results of ill deeds they committed can thus be warded off. They do not > know that each deed can bring about its own result. We can only purify > ourselves of imperfections if the wisdom is cultivated. If one thinks > that deeds do not bring about their appropriate results one may easily > be inclined to believe that the cultivation of wholesomeness is useless. > This kind of belief may lead to ill deeds and to the corruption of > society. ------------------------------------------------------------- To add, there are 10 other kinds of wrong view found in the suttanta. For e.g in Cullapunnama Sutta (MN. 110 and I'm sure there are other suttas too). These are the following wrong views: 1. There is nothing given (N'atthi dinnam.) 2. There is nothing offered (N'atthi ittham.) 3. There is nothing sacrified (N'atthi hutam.) 4. No fruit or result of good and bad actions. 5. No this world. 6. No other world. 7. No Mother 8. No Father 9. No beings who are reborn spontaneously. 10. No good or virtous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knoewledge and declare this world and the other world. The first 3 are implying that there are no resultant from such an act. No. 5 & 6 means those born here do not accept past existence, and those living here do not accept a future life. No 7 & 8, means there is no effect in anything done to them. Basically, it's the teachings of kamma & its resultant in various forms. Goglerr ------------------------------------------- > 18. Of the eight types of lobha-mula-citta four types arise with wrong > view (ditthi); they are called in Pali: ditthigata-sampavutta > (sampayutta means: associated with). Four types of lobha-mula-dtta arise > without wrong view; they are ditthigata-vippayutta (vippayutta means: > dissociated from). > > 19. As regards the feeling which accompanies the lobha mula-citta, > lobha-mula-cittas can arise either with pleasant feeling or with > indifferent feeling, never with unpleasant feeling. The lobha is more > intense when it arises with pleasant feeling. Of the four types of > lobha-mula-citta which are accompanied by ditthi, two types arise with > pleasant feeling(somanassa), they are somanassa-sahagata (accompanied by > pleasant feeling) ; two types arise with indifferent feeling (upekkha, > they are upekkha-sahagata. For example, when one clings to the view that > there is a self which will continue to exist, the citta can be > accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Of the four > lobha-mula-cittas arising without ditthi, two types are accompanied by > pleasant feeling (somanassa-sahagata) and two types are accompanied by > indifferent feeling (upekkha-sahagata). Thus, of the eight types of > lobha-mula-citta, four types arise with pleasant feeling and four types > arise with indifferent feeling. > > 20. In classifying lobha-mula-cittas there is yet another distinction to > be made. Lobha-mula-cittas can be 'asankharika' (unprompted) or > 'sasankharika' (prompted). Asankharika is sometimes translated as 'not > induced', 'unprompted' or 'spontaneous'; sasankharika is translated as > 'induced' or 'prompted'. The 'visuddhimagga' states about > lobha-mula-citta that it is sasankharika 'when it is with consciousness > which is sluggish and urged on'. The lobha-mula-cittas which are > sasankharika can be prompted by the advice or request of someone else, > or they arise induced by one's own previous consideration. Even when > they are 'prompted' by one's own consideration, they are sasankharika; > the cittas are 'sluggish and urged on'. Thus, when lobha is asankharika > it is more intense than when it is sasankharika. > > 21. Of the four lobha-mula-cittas arising with ditthi, two types are > asankharika and two types are sasankharika. As regards the > lobha-mula-cittas arising without ditthi, two types are asankharika and > two types are sasankharika. Thus, of the eight lobha-mula-cittas, four > types are asankharika and four types are sasankharika. 12728 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > p.s I've read this quote below so many times, but > > am still not quite sure > > what birdlime (monkeylime) or lampblack (dye) are????? > > =============== Thanks for your helpful comments below. They’re such vivid and clear descriptions of lobha, aren’t they? I just checked on google about the terms and in real brief: Birdlime is: “sticky material painted on to twigs to trap small birds.” Of more interest to me is to find it’s the same as mistletoe, which I hadn't appreciated before. There are 2kinds of mistletoe apparently, American and European which is the same as North Asian. I’m very familiar (from English Xmas decorations) with the very sticky mistletoe berries, so I expect these are what are used to trap the poor birds and monkeys. Lampblack: was commonly used as a kind of ink in early writing. “As an organic or inorganic pigment or dye dissolved or suspended in a solvent--essentially ... made from animal or vegetable charcoal (lampblack) mixed with glue. ...” .................................... Under monkeylime in google search, all the references are to Tshirts and other irrelevant red herrings. However it did send me back to two of Nina’s books, but NO other dhamma sources at all...... Anyway, I’m sure it’s the same as birdlime, i.e mistletoe extract. Sarah ======= >> > Sarah, I have never seen monkey lime in use either, but I > have heard it explained this way. Sticky monkey lime is > what one uses to capture a monkey. When a monkey sticks one > of its paw to it, it is stuck. Hoping to get free, it uses > another paw to help pushing. The other paw also gets stuck. > The same goes on with the other two paws. Finally, being > desperate, it uses its muzzle to help pushing, which also > gets stuck, leaving the desperate monkey free for the monkey > hunter to do as he pleases with it (didn't the commentary > mention roasting it over a fire?) > > Hence, when we see attachment, we can reflect on monkey > lime. We are stuck to samsara because of it. Ignorant, we > do not know how to get free from it. We can reflect on the > Buddha's compassion: without his teaching, we are like a > monkey trying to get free (from lobha) by doing all the > wrong things (by trying to satisfy it). Being stuck, death, > illness, ages, mara, sufferings, etc., all have their ways > with us. ========================================= 12729 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Dear Friend, Welcome to DSG. I hope you find it useful here. --- portsofspeech wrote: > Hello. > > I've read Thai Theravada texts, Sri Lankan and Burmese, amd I noticed > that in some of the Thai Theravada text (Thai forest tradition) they > speak of mind as a eternal thing (primordial awareness, etc.) like > they do in Mahayana. While Sri Lankan and Burmese texts talk of it as > anatta. > > Is there a real, concrete difference between the ways that some of > the Thai Forest Theravada schools define the mind and the Burmese / > Sri Lankan, or is it merely a difference in emphasis or terminology? I believe that in the Pali Tipitaka from these countries there is really very little difference of any substance. When these texts are translated into English, there are bound to be some differences according to the translator’s understanding of the words. There are many people on DSG who read the Thai Tipitaka, English Tipitaka and some who read the Pali. I haven’t heard any Tipitaka references to eternal mind or primordial awareness, but you may be referring to more recent interpretations. I think we all interpret what we read and hear according to our understanding. Like you (I think) I read all the Tipitaka as referring to anatta, but really can’t comment on other suggestions. You’re welcome to give a reference or quote. Others may be more knowledgable in this area. Perhaps you could also say more about your concern. Meanwhile, we’d be very glad if you’d also let us what your name is/how you’d like to be addressed and anything else about yourself or your interest in dhamma. (Of course, most of us would prefer everyone on DSG to use their ‘real’ names and also to be sure to sign off with these. Not a rule, just a request;-)) Sarah ============== 12730 From: goglerr Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Num, is lobha mula citta the same as tanha, or does tanha have a > wider meaning as regards the second noble truth (cause of dukkha)? > > thanks, Larry Lobha-mula-citta is a citta (consciousness)and in conjuction with that citta, tanha is appear as a cetasika i.e. lobha cetasika. From Num posting, in daily life these lobha cetasika has many names. As we know that tanha or craving has these 3 kinds - craving for sensual sensual desire, existence and non existence. Craving for sensual desire are involve the five sense bases (longing, wanting, desire, lust etc) whereas craving the views of existence or non- existence (i.e. disregard kamma and its effect, eternity - a view of permanency, soul and creator theory - as a sense of self) are the mind base. Therefore tanha has the wider meaning bcos it arise from all the six sense bases - which create the whole mass or mess of dukkha. Goglerr p.s - although we know in D.O that tanha arises directly from feeling, but above are just gross decription. 12731 From: portsofspeech Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind > > Welcome to DSG. I hope you find it useful here. > Thanks. :) > > I believe that in the Pali Tipitaka from these countries there is really > very little difference of any substance. Right. > When these texts are translated > into English, there are bound to be some differences according to the > translator's understanding of the words. There are many people on DSG who > read the Thai Tipitaka, English Tipitaka and some who read the Pali. I was referring more towards their own native writings, like Goenka, Chah, etc. > I > haven't heard any Tipitaka references to eternal mind or primordial > awareness, but you may be referring to more recent interpretations. > Me neither, but I do see it as present in some of the main-stream Theravada schools and this concerns me. > I think we all interpret what we read and hear according to our > understanding. Like you (I think) I read all the Tipitaka as referring to > anatta, Yes. > but really can't comment on other suggestions. You're welcome to > give a reference or quote. From Ajahn Mun: "So meditators, when they know in this manner, should do away with these counterfeits by analyzing them shrewdly, as explained in the strategies of clear insight, § 9. When they develop the mind to the stage of the primal mind, this will mean that all counterfeits are destroyed, or rather, counterfeit things won't be able to reach into the primal mind, because the bridge making the connection will have been destroyed. Even though the mind may then still have to come into contact with the preoccupations of the world, its contact will be like that of a bead of water rolling over a lotus leaf." "Once we see through inconstancy, the mind-source stops creating issues. All that remains is the primal mind, true & unchanging." And most everyone in his tradition has similar statements. Now, these may be only referring to the mind when it is free from all attachments and released, and not some metaphysical Absolute as some Mahayanists claim. But it may also be a distortion of the True Teaching of Buddha and very dangerous if one truly wants to be freed from rebirth. If one follows those teachings he might only end up being reborn in the sphere of infinite consciousness or space. > Others may be more knowledgable in this area. > Perhaps you could also say more about your concern. Just about every mystical school, from old Christian Gnostics to modern day Advaita and Zen, speak about an infinite, radiant consciousness which is our true Self and veiled behind our attachment and identification with our thoughts. But the Buddha went beyond this and identified these mystical experiences (and the knowledge derived from them) as incomplete (i.e. the arupa-jhanas) and that they do not, ultimately, lead to the end of suffering. He said, on the contrary, there is ultimately nothing that is a self, whether it be a primal consciousness or this frail body. The Theravadin Abhidhammic tradition elaborates on it but does not nullify this teaching as so many of the other Suttic schools did (like the Personalists, Trancendentalists, Realists, etc.), as most all heresy hinged around this 'self'/'not-self' teaching. > > Meanwhile, we'd be very glad if you'd also let us what your name is/how > you'd like to be addressed and anything else about yourself or your > interest in dhamma. > Sorry. You can call me Richard and I've been studying traditional Theravada for about a month now. - Richard 12732 From: dhamma101 Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:24am Subject: Advice needed for practical problem Dear all, I have this dilemma regarding taking action in my work regarding an unpleasant situation. If I had not read any spiritual literature and dhamma, I might not have had much difficulty in executing what I consider is the "right" thing. However, having read and contemplated upon some of the dhamma teachings, I am not sure on the course of action. If it is ok, I would prefer to send my question in a private email. If any of the senior members might be kind ebough to offer guidance I would appreciate it very much. Similarly, if any of you have had experience in applying dhamma in office situations (particularly being in a managerial position requiring to take disciplinary action) I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me an email at dhamma101@y... and hopefully give me some guidance. Thanks much. With regards DaiWen 12733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Advice needed for practical problem DaiWen Hello from me, and welcome to the list. --- dhamma101 wrote: > Dear all, > > I have this dilemma regarding taking action > in my work regarding an unpleasant situation. > If I had not read any spiritual literature > and dhamma, I might not have had much > difficulty in executing what I consider > is the "right" thing. However, having > read and contemplated upon some of the > dhamma teachings, I am not sure on the course > of action. > > If it is ok, I would prefer to send my question > in a private email. If any of the senior > members might be kind ebough to offer guidance > I would appreciate it very much. > Similarly, if any of you have had > experience in applying dhamma in office > situations (particularly being in a > managerial position requiring to take > disciplinary action) I would greatly appreciate > it if you could send me an email at > dhamma101@y... and hopefully give me > some guidance. Actually, there are no 'senior' and 'non-senior' members here. Useful advice can come from any member. Also, it is to the benefit of others that issues like the one you have raised are discussed on the list. Could you perhaps give a situation in general terms, without getting into specific personalities? Chances are some of the members will have had experience of a similar situation, or at least have some thoughts on it. (You might even find it helps clarify the issues in your own mind to go thorough this exercise.) Looking forward to hearing more from you. JOn 12734 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:58am Subject: Re: Advice needed for practical problem Dear Daiwen. Perhaps I can make some general comments. 1. Laypeople are not under the same vinaya as monks. Monks truly renounce all gain, wish for prestige, money, family; they eat food only as medicine, never because they like the taste or because they want to build the body in a nice way etc.; they live a life alone..and on and so. Sometimes we might read the suttas and think that we should copy the monks but the Buddha held out prominent laymen who were said to be examples for laymen to aspire to -and he held out prominent laywomen as examples for laywomen. At times of course we can follow the monks, we may eat food more as medicine than as a beautifying tool or because we like the taste. But this is not a rule for laypeople. What we can say is that breaking the five sila is something that should be avoided for all laypeople If we do break one we should not waste time in prolonged guilt but build resolve not to break it in the future - all the time being aware that conditions may arise so that such bad actions might still be done until wisdom becomes such a strong faculty that the five precepts can never be broken. 2. In Business we are involved in trying to make a living and money. This is tied up with lobha (desire)- you could not be a business man without lobha. However the texts distinguish between sama lobha (normal lobha) and visama lobha (dangerous lobha). The later type leads one to committ evil in order to gain or protect, the other is the type that we all have all the time. 3. A friend in Thailand told me that his business has suffered somewhat since he became firmer in Dhamma. He couldn:t lie about the benefits of his product and so sales dropped. But you know, we have confidence in kamma, and so the the good kamma he makes by abstaining from lieing will bring its sublime benefits in the future. He is not keeping sila because he wants nice rewards but the law of nature is such that all types of advantages will come about. Maybe his business will even improve in the future because of his honesty. 4. In the mahavamsa there are some true stories about kings who defended SRI LANKA from invaders. One king felt terrible about this because it, of course, involved the use of armed force. But he had also done much good and supported the Sangha built temples ect. He went to heaven after death. 5. In some jatakas there are examples of the Bodhisatta beating up evildoers as a lesson to them..This is akusala but there is also moments when he does great kusala in the story. And isnt this true life....moments of kusala and moments of akusala. 6. Even arahants use force at times such as when Mogallana subdued the great Naga or when he forcibly ejected a bad monk from the patimokkha recitation. best wishes robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "dhamma101" wrote: > Dear all, > > I have this dilemma regarding taking action > in my work regarding an unpleasant situation. > If I had not read any spiritual literature > and dhamma, I might not have had much > difficulty in executing what I consider > is the "right" thing. However, having > read and contemplated upon some of the > dhamma teachings, I am not sure on the course > of action. > > If it is ok, I would prefer to send my question > in a private email. If any of the senior > members might be kind ebough to offer guidance > I would appreciate it very much. > Similarly, if any of you have had > experience in applying dhamma in office > situations (particularly being in a > managerial position requiring to take > disciplinary action) I would greatly appreciate > it if you could send me an email at > dhamma101@y... and hopefully give me > some guidance. > > Thanks much. > > With regards > DaiWen 12735 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 3:06am Subject: Re: Mind --Dear Richard, I see from your later post that you have studied Theravada for only a month. It is rather wonderful, then, that you already see that anatta is the heart of the Buddhas teaching - in that all phenomena are empty of self, there is only a stream of conditioned nama(mentality) and rupa(materialty)arising and passing. This is standard Dhamma but as Sarah said in another post:""We may think that there is no more self-view and that we're only referring to awareness, intention, wisdom and so on, but the idea of control and selection and the desire for certain phenomena to arise are very, very deep-rooted. Recognising this is a very big step forward as I see it.""..>> Even when we accept anatta and talk and write and even think about it correctly this is still a long way from seeing it directly. The first stage of direct insight insights the difference between nama and rupa and this occurs not by wishing or trying to focus but only because the right conditions coincide so that penetrating insight arises...It may take a very long time before this first stage occurs and it can never occur if the wrong path is taken. What I found in my fairly brief encounter with Buddhist thought is that the teachers I had at held in much awe later seemed not as helpful as I had first thought. Some of them even looked to be circling around subtle posts of self view. best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "portsofspeech" wrote: > Hello. > > I've read Thai Theravada texts, Sri Lankan and Burmese, amd I noticed > that in some of the Thai Theravada text (Thai forest tradition) they > speak of mind as a eternal thing (primordial awareness, etc.) like > they do in Mahayana. While Sri Lankan and Burmese texts talk of it as > anatta. > > Is there a real, concrete difference between the ways that some of > the Thai Forest Theravada schools define the mind and the Burmese / > Sri Lankan, or is it merely a difference in emphasis or terminology? > > Thanks! > > Metta 12736 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: Advice needed for practical problem --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "dhamma101" wrote: > Dear all, > > I have this dilemma regarding taking action > in my work regarding an unpleasant situation. > If I had not read any spiritual literature > and dhamma, I might not have had much > difficulty in executing what I consider > is the "right" thing. However, having > read and contemplated upon some of the > dhamma teachings, I am not sure on the course > of action. > > If it is ok, I would prefer to send my question > in a private email. If any of the senior > members might be kind ebough to offer guidance > I would appreciate it very much. > Similarly, if any of you have had > experience in applying dhamma in office > situations (particularly being in a > managerial position requiring to take > disciplinary action) I would greatly appreciate > it if you could send me an email at > dhamma101@y... and hopefully give me > some guidance. Hello Dai, There's a book that addresses just this very problem: how to apply the Dharma to work situations, and specifically to the sorts of issues you normally encounter, including what to do if you need to take disiplinary action in situations (I assume) are like yours. The book is called "The Diamond Cutter" by Geshe Michael Roach. Geshe Michael Roach was the first person I'd ever heard the correct explanation of emptiness from, and his teachings were instrumental in my own development as a Buddhist. I'd also highly recommend this book since he cut his teeth in the real business world, where our lama made him work for many years to learn to apply with the Dharma in "real life" (the only place it can ever be [practised), who, based on Dharma principles, managed to build a very large company with hundreds of employees--so he knows whereof he speaks. Amazon has it at the following link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385497903/qid=1019125041/sr=1 -1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4224506-9530249 To all the fellow DSG'ers I haven't said hello to in a while (since I've been dealing with the "dharma of daily life" and dealing with a lot of lobha mula citta action here on Koh Samui :), more than discussing or studying texts, I'd like to say I haven't forgotten my dear friends here. Also, I put up a couple of photos of Eath and myself in the DSG photo gallery last night. Cheers, Erik 12737 From: egberdina Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 6:48am Subject: Re: Daily life Dear Erik, It is very good to hear from you again, and wonderful to see the lovely snapshots. All the best to you and your wife in your daily life. Herman 12738 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daily life Hi, Herman and Erik - In a message dated 4/18/02 10:54:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@d... writes: > Dear Erik, > > It is very good to hear from you again, and wonderful to see the > lovely snapshots. > > All the best to you and your wife in your daily life. > > Herman ======================== Somehow I missed your post with the pix, Erik. Could you please mail it to me? Thanks, and with metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12739 From: manji Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 7:27am Subject: RE: [dsg] Advice needed for practical problem There is doubt (vicikicchà). Perhaps learning about the differences, however sublte, between concepts and reality will help greatly. Acting on concepts is subtly different than acting on paramattha dhamma. Even acting - kamma - is not self. Eventually this acting - kamma making - ceases. So there are courses of action, views and concepts, arising and falling. The mind is striking these appropriately and there is arising doubt (vicikiccha). As Nina Van Gorkom quoted in Cetasikas: "The Atthasålin? (II, Part IX, Chapter III, 259) defines vicikicchå as follows: "... It has shifting about as characteristic, mental wavering as function, indecision or uncertainty in grasp as manifestation, unsystematic thought (unwise attention) as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a danger to attainment. Keep going, -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: dhamma101 [mailto:dhamma101@y...] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:25 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Advice needed for practical problem > > Dear all, > > I have this dilemma regarding taking action > in my work regarding an unpleasant situation. > If I had not read any spiritual literature > and dhamma, I might not have had much > difficulty in executing what I consider > is the "right" thing. However, having > read and contemplated upon some of the > dhamma teachings, I am not sure on the course > of action. > > If it is ok, I would prefer to send my question > in a private email. If any of the senior > members might be kind ebough to offer guidance > I would appreciate it very much. > Similarly, if any of you have had > experience in applying dhamma in office > situations (particularly being in a > managerial position requiring to take > disciplinary action) I would greatly appreciate > it if you could send me an email at > dhamma101@y... and hopefully give me > some guidance. > > Thanks much. > > With regards > DaiWen > > > > 12740 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem: Erik Dear Erik, I agree with Howard. The photo is lovely. I do have some comments, however, that now I know what your wife looks like, but still only have some vague idea of what you look like. You have a larger photo of yourself? BTW, congratulation (really belatedly) on your marriage. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: rikpa21 [mailto:rikpa21@y...] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:29 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem > > 12741 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem: Erik --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Erik, > > I agree with Howard. The photo is lovely. I do have some > comments, however, that now I know what your wife looks > like, but still only have some vague idea of what you look > like. You have a larger photo of yourself? Hi Kom, at your request, I just put up a slightly larger photo, which has a rather interesting story behind it. It was the same image I'd had in a dream at age sixteen (with what looked like the temple Ta Prohm as the backdrop), and I had my friend take it specifically for the reason it matched that dream. That dream-image in my mind became a key focal point of the trip as I was researching my trip to Cambodia and Thailand. Kamma is so strange the way it gently pushes us in certain directions sometimes, and we're not even aware of it at work. Five minutes after that photo was taken I met my lovely new wife Eath, or as she's also known, Ananda, for the first time, 1 1/2 years ago. As I jokingly remarked to Jon and Sarah over breakfast in Bangkok, if I ever saw her again I'd propose on the spot. Two weeks later... For a little history, the temple Ta Prohm at Angkor was the former tantric monastic complex for the entire Angkor era under the Mahayana king Jayavarman VII (considered an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, like the Dalai Lama), and at one time housed about 3,000 monks. It was dedicated by the king to Prajnaparamita-- the "Perfection of Wisdom" and the "mother of all Buddhas," though many guide books say he didicated it to his birth mother. BTW, I now know for certain that the Angkor area at this time was a seat tantric Buddhism (which was flourishing simultaneously in Tibet), though you find few inscriptions hinting at its practice there. In Cambodia's national museum last week I found proof, though: two images from the Jayavarman VII era of Vajrasattva, who is a key tantric representation of the Buddha, and the Hevajra tantra is a very important tantra to all schools of Tibetan Buddhism presently. > BTW, congratulation (really belatedly) on your marriage. Thanks! I came to Thailand not knowing if I'd end up with a set of robes and a begging bowl or what would happen, really. But if I had to do it over again, I'd do the same as I've done--it's really wound up benefitting moer people than I ever thought possible. While I have the highest respect for those who choose this difficult and wonderful endeavour, I have found that, for now, it's not the right thing, that as much can be accomplished in terms of practice by dealing with what life gives us here and now. Note to Howard: since I assume you recieve messages via email, the photos are in the "Photos" section of the DSG site on the left-hand part of the screen under the "Messages" link. I hope all my friends here are doing well, that deeper and deeper insights into the Dhamma are arising for each and every one here, and that all are happy, free from suffering, never separated from joy, and resting in imperturbable equanimity. Erik 12743 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem: Erik Hi, Kom - It was Herman who wrote about how nice the pix are. I'm the one who somehow missed Erik's post with the pix. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/18/02 3:32:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Erik, > > I agree with Howard. The photo is lovely. I do have some > comments, however, that now I know what your wife looks > like, but still only have some vague idea of what you look > like. You have a larger photo of yourself? > > BTW, congratulation (really belatedly) on your marriage. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12744 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10): characteristics of lobha Dear Num, I appreciated very much this post. What really sticks in my mind is the analogy of lobha to the ocean: it is ocean because it can never be satisfied. Very lovely. Anumoddhana. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: srnsk@a... [mailto:srnsk@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:38 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) > > > Dear Larry, Kom, Sarah and ADL group; > > Nina put some more explicit detail about lobha and its analogy in > Cetasikas. > I really like reading about character and nature of dhamma. It > really reminds > me how little I really know about my defilement. I feel like it's my long > time companioin, being with me since I get up in the morning until I jump > into bed. No matter where I go, It goes along with me. It's so > well disguised > and so deceitful. At the end, I also add some more about lobha > (greed) from > the section of small items, Vibanga, the book of analysis, PTS 1969 > p.470-471, U Thittila. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > The Dhammasangani (1059), in the section where it deals with > lobha as > hetu, gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to > illustrate > its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it > strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the > ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more > subtle such as > hoping or expecting. It is a "bondage" because it binds beings in > the round > of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind (2 See the > Atthasalini II, Book II, Chapter II, 362.367.). > The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition > of lobha: > greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like "monkey > lime". Its > function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not > giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. In proximate cause is > seeing enjoyment > in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it > should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a > swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. > The Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives a similar > definition (1 > See also Dhammasangani 389). > Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. > Monkey lime > was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the > Kindred Sayings > (V, Maha-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, 7, The monkey) that a hunter > sets a trap > of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from "folly and greed" > do not get > trapped. We read: > But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and > handles it with > one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I'll free > my paw, he > seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To free > both paws he > seizes them with one foot,. and that too sticks fast. To free > both paws and > the one foot, he lays hold of them with the other foot, but that > too sticks > fast. To flee both paws and both feet he lays hold of them with > his muzzle: > but that too sticks fast. > So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, > thus fallen > on misfortune... > In this way the hunter can catch him and roast him over the fire. > The Buddha > explained to the monks that the monk who is not mindful gets > trapped by the > "five sensual elements ": visible object, sound, scent, savour > and tangible > object. When one is taken in by these objects, "Mara gets access" > (2 Mara is > that which is evil, akusala, and a wider sense: everything which > is bound up > with dukkha.). Clinging is dangerous, it leads to one's own > destruction. Are > we at this moment taken in by one of the "five sensual elements"? > Then we are > in fact "trapped". At the moment of lobha we enjoy the object of > clinging and > we do not see that lobha makes us enslaved, we do not see the danger of > lobha. Therefore it is said that the proximate cause of lobha is seeing > enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Growing into a river of > craving, > lobha takes us to the "states of loss". Lobha can motivate > unwholesome deeds > which are capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. So long as > lobha has not > been eradicated we are subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Small items, vibhanga: > > Therein what are 'the three bad roots'? Greed, hatred, dullness. > > Therein what is greed? That which is lusting, infatuation, seduction, > compliance, passion, passionate, lust, infatuation of > consciousness, wishing, > yearning, clinging, greediness, omniverous greediness, cleaving, slough, > allurement, deceit, genetrix, fettering genetrix, sempstress, ensnarer, > river, extending, (fishing) line, spreading, urger, consort, > hankering, guide > to becoming, forest, jungle, intimacy, fondness, (greedy) > consideration, kin, > want, wanting, state of wanting, wanting visible (object), > wanting audible > (object), wanting odorous (object), wanting sapid (object), > wanting tangible > (object), wanting gains, wanting wealth, wanting sons, wanting life, > muttering, excessive muttering, act of muttering, state of muttering, > self-indulgence, being self-indulgent, state of being self-indulgent, > agitation, desire for the nicer, incestuous lust, lawless greed, > longing, act > of longing, entreating, liking, imploring, craving for sense pleasure, > craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming, craving for form, > craving for > the formless, craving for cessation, craving for visible > (object), craving > for audible (object), craving for odorous (object), craving for sapid > (object), craving for tangible (object), craving for ideational > (object), > flood, bond, tie, attachment, obstruction, hindrance, covering, bondage, > depravity, latent tendency, usurping, creeper, avarice, root of > suffering, > source of suffering, origin of suffering, mara's snare, mara's fish-hook, > mara's domain, rive of craving, net of craving, leash of craving, > ocean of > craving, covetousness, the bad root of greed. This is called greed. > > Therein what is hatred?. . . . . . . . . > > +++++++++++++++++++++ > > > Best wishes. > > Num 12745 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem: Erik Ahh, I see. Thanks, Erik. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/18/02 4:21:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rikpa21@y... writes: > Note to Howard: since I assume you recieve messages via email, the > photos are in the "Photos" section of the DSG site on the left-hand > part of the screen under the "Messages" link. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12746 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem: Erik Dear Howard, Thank you for the correction. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:23 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem: Erik > > > Hi, Kom - > > It was Herman who wrote about how nice the pix are. I'm > the one who > somehow missed Erik's post with the pix. > > With metta, > Howard > 12747 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) I sent this mail out more than 24 hrs ago, but so far it's a "no show." +++++++++++++++++++++++ Hi Sarah, <> Well, yeah, but dhammas are risen and then completely fallen away ;-) <> There are at least 4 different definitions of present (paccupana). 1. paccupana-atdha. This means present lifetime, started at patisandhicitta to juticitta in each one lifetime. 2. paccupana-samaya. This means present time like, today is a present time. 3. paccupana-santati. This means present because the rapid arising and falling away of dhamma and we perceive it as a continuum. Rupas rise and fall away but a chair is still chair!! 4. paccupana-khana. This refers to a single minute khana of citta, upada-thiti-bhanga khana. Thiti-khana is a future for upada-khana but a past for bhanga-khana. The continuum because the rapid alternating of panca-dvara-vithi and mano-dvara-vitthi, called pancupana-santati. Rupas have been completely fallen away with the panca-dvara-vithi. But because it happens so fast and then we perceive it as a continuum. It said that with sharpness of panna, one might able to see that. Jon gave an analogy of water permeating through a 2 thin layers of paper. The water has to pass the first layer first but all we can see is both layers get wet at the same time. <> When I am thinking of nibbana, for me now, nibbana is just a pannatti. As you know, nibbana and concept do not rise and fall away. So both are time-independent (kala-vimutti). The cittas that have nibbana and pannatti as their aramana though, have been risen and then completely fallen away. Not long ago, Kom mentioned that concept of time comes with the fact that dhammas are risen and falenl away. Nibbana is a paramatthadhamma but concept is conventionally called a pannattidhamma. > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." > (from Le Petit Prince) The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of panca-vinnana-citta. <> Well, I am a bug lover, so I do not mind the worm at all (there is no rule without an exception, sorry bloodsucking leech, you are not welcome here)! I know that they will all turn into beautiful bugs sooner or later. One of my dreams when I was younger is to become an entomologist, (not to mention another 101 things I wanted to be or to do, including being at the top of Himalayas :-). Thanks and anumodana in your careful and in-detail consideration. Again, I do not mind cans of worms ;-) It's a "Bug Life":-) (Have you seen the movie? It's lovely, esp. the outtake at the end is so funny.) Best wishes. Num PS. I will respond to your mail, choice and suicide, off-list, OK. 12748 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 4 (16-21) Dear Goglerr, this is very interesting about the wrong views. Does this mean that ditthi only falls into these categories? What about all the limitless other crazy ideas we carry around in our heads? Larry -------------------- Goglerr wrote: To add, there are 10 other kinds of wrong view found in the suttanta. For e.g in Cullapunnama Sutta (MN. 110 and I'm sure there are other suttas too). These are the following wrong views: 1. There is nothing given (N'atthi dinnam.) 2. There is nothing offered (N'atthi ittham.) 3. There is nothing sacrified (N'atthi hutam.) 4. No fruit or result of good and bad actions. 5. No this world. 6. No other world. 7. No Mother 8. No Father 9. No beings who are reborn spontaneously. 10. No good or virtous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knoewledge and declare this world and the other world. The first 3 are implying that there are no resultant from such an act. No. 5 & 6 means those born here do not accept past existence, and those living here do not accept a future life. No 7 & 8, means there is no effect in anything done to them. Basically, it's the teachings of kamma & its resultant in various forms. Goglerr 12749 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of Buddhism --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Good one Robert. I would put anatta after dukkha because anicca and > dukkha sort of ease one into the idea of anatta. I don't know about the > last sentence, but who does? well, I guess that's why so many suttas begin 'thus have I heard'. robert ep. > > Larry > ------------------ > Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Betty. > Here's my stab at it: > Buddhism is a spiritual philosophy that deals with the causes of human > suffering, and the way in which suffering and ignorance can be > eliminated through deep understanding. Buddhism has three concepts that > it uniquely highlights, known in the Indian languages as anatta, anicca > and dukkha. Anatta translates to the lack of a self or being, and it > is Buddhism's unique stand that living beings are only mechanical > structures with certain given tendencies, and do not really have > personal existence. On close inspection, there would be no 'person' > found within the body or mind, to either enjoy life or suffer ill > effects, and the discovery of this is seen to be liberating for an > individual. Anicca means that everything that seems solid and fixed > is really impermanent and constantly changing. Dukkha denotes that > life, being unstable and changeable, is ultimately unsatisfying and > frustrating. One who lets go of this life and self, and realizes the > true nature of reality, reaches Nibbana, or absolute freedom from all > conditions, the highest goal of Buddhism. > Robert Ep. 12750 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 Great Elements It would seem to me that the extension that you write about maybe related to the air element. Is not the nature of air tension and extension? Is not the nature of fire - hot and cold? Even though the nature of water appears to be fluid and cohesive it is interesting to note that it also contains other elements such as fire and earth. While sitting in a very hot bath one can be aware of both hot and cold areas. Water with alot of minerals even smells like earth. I am practicing being aware of the different elements in the body. Is anyone else doing this practice? I find it interesting to note as fire (hot and cold) arises and as air or wind moves. Shakti azita gill wrote: --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Everybody > dear TG > you asked: > It seems to me that the Four Great Elements need (at > minimum) to constitute > physical reality. There must be some substance > comprising that reality I > would think. Extention, cohesion, distention, and > heat are characteristics > of phenomena but do not indicate what it is, that is > extending, coalescing, > expanding, or heating. Is it matter and energy? > I'm wondering, what is the > substance, if any, that is called "extention? > > I'd appreciate any ideas. Thanks. > > TG Below comes from a Buddhist dictionary, The 4 physical elements[dhatu or maha-bhuta], popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. ----------- "whateveris characterised by hardness [thaddha-lakkkhana] is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion [abandhana] or fluidity, the water-element; by heating [paripacana], the fire or heat-element; by strengtheningor supporting[vitthambhana], the wind or motion-element. All 4 are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If the earthelement predominates, the material object is called solid" I think for the purpose of developing the wisdom to know realities as they really are, awareness is only aware of that which appears e.g. hot or cold, hard or soft, motion or pressure. It is not "what is it that is hot" just "hot". I hope this helps you a little, TG. I liked your question. May all beings be happy, Azita > > 12751 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 6:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:41 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) > > > Thanks Kom, I guess this leads back to Christine's question about > paticcasamuppada. With feeling as condition, craving arises; the > proximate cause of attachment is pleasant feeling. Same thing? And the > undoing of it is seeing that pleasant feeling is undesirable because > impermanent? > > I'll have to wait until tomorrow for the answer; it's dream time, Do you think feeling in paticcasamuppada means only pleasant bodily and mental feelings? Attachments can have anything (except the actual nibbana, and the lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) as its object, including aversion. When you are satisified that your adversary is suffering, there may be conditions for attachments to attach to both your-adversary-suffering, and the aversion itself. When you think somebody deserves suffering (like a criminal getting punished, or terrorists getting slaughtered), there again may be conditions for attachments to aversion, especially if you think it is justice (and you don't know that it is the aversion-related states that thinks the thought!) And how about unpleasant feelings that drive your behavior? When we are bored, don't we look for some other objects to be entertained with? When I sit down cross-legged on the floor for a while, I tend to fidget quite a bit. Do you do this? What drives your behavior? I know that pain drives me to want to do something to relieve the pain. Satipatthana on feelings is said to fix the misperception/wrong view of seeing sukha in dukha. So, I think you are right to say that if we see suffering (dukha) even in feelings, that eventually will be the permanent undoing of attachment to feelings. kom 12752 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Hi Erik, Super photos of you both.....many thanks;-)) Best regards to Eath. --- rikpa21 wrote > To all the fellow DSG'ers I haven't said hello to in a while (since > I've been dealing with the "dharma of daily life" and dealing with a > lot of lobha mula citta action here on Koh Samui :), There's always a price to pay (i.e the lobha:-)). Glad you're both doing well and I like your emphasis on dhamma in "real life" below. I see no conflict at all with being a good businessperson and disciplinarian as appropriate and interest/wisdom in dhamma. I've always found any understanding helps rather than hinders in these regards. I'm reminded of your kind reminders to me before about mudita (sympathetic joy) vs the useless issa (envy) that so often arises when we hear of others good news. Erik, I hope you both continue to enjoy your time in Koh Samui and have many happy years together. Thankyou for all your other good wishes for us all. > more than > discussing or studying texts, I'd like to say I haven't forgotten my > dear friends here. i'm sure you'll have been considering carefully and applying or understanding what you've read and heard in daily life. Thanks for thinking of us and it's great to see you and have you pop in;-) metta, Sarah ============== > There's a book that addresses just this very problem: how to apply > the Dharma to work situations, and specifically to the sorts of > issues you normally encounter, including what to do if you need to > take disiplinary action in situations (I assume) are like yours. > > The book is called "The Diamond Cutter" by Geshe Michael Roach. > Geshe Michael Roach was the first person I'd ever heard the > correct explanation of emptiness from, and his teachings were > instrumental in my own development as a Buddhist. I'd also highly > recommend this book since he cut his teeth in the real business > world, where our lama made him work for many years to learn to apply > with the Dharma in "real life" (the only place it can ever be > [practised), who, based on Dharma principles, managed to build a > very large company with hundreds of employees--so he knows whereof > he speaks. ......................................... 12753 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Goglerr, so tanha is craving for sense pleasure plus craving to be a 'self' in either an eternalistic or nihilistic way, but lobha-mula-citta is attachment to sense pleasure only? Also, I was wondering how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises from feeling (vedana). thanks, really enjoying your contributions, Larry ----------------- Goglerr wrote: Lobha-mula-citta is a citta (consciousness)and in conjuction with that citta, tanha is appear as a cetasika i.e. lobha cetasika. From Num posting, in daily life these lobha cetasika has many names. As we know that tanha or craving has these 3 kinds - craving for sensual sensual desire, existence and non existence. Craving for sensual desire are involve the five sense bases (longing, wanting, desire, lust etc) whereas craving the views of existence or non- existence (i.e. disregard kamma and its effect, eternity - a view of permanency, soul and creator theory - as a sense of self) are the mind base. Therefore tanha has the wider meaning bcos it arise from all the six sense bases - which create the whole mass or mess of dukkha. Goglerr p.s - although we know in D.O that tanha arises directly from feeling, but above are just gross decription. 12754 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / sees form?? I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti +++++++++++++++++++++++ > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." > (from Le Petit Prince) The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of panca-vinnana-citta. > Well, I am a bug lover, so I do not mind the worm at all (there is no rule without an exception, sorry bloodsucking leech, you are not welcome here)! I know that they will all turn into beautiful bugs sooner or later. One of my dreams when I was younger is to become an entomologist, (not to mention another 101 things I wanted to be or to do, including being at the top of Himalayas :-). Thanks and anumodana in your careful and in-detail consideration. Again, I do not mind cans of worms ;-) It's a "Bug Life":-) (Have you seen the movie? It's lovely, esp. the outtake at the end is so funny.) Best wishes. Num PS. I will respond to your mail, choice and suicide, off-list, OK. 12755 From: Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 9:09pm Subject: ADL dh. 4 (22-27) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 4, paragraphs 22 - 27 22. It is useful to learn the Pali terms and their meaning, because the English translation does not render the meaning of realities very clearly. 23. The eight types of lobha-mula-citta are: 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam ) 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam) 24. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be asankharika (unprompted) or sasankharika (prompted). The 'Atthasalini' 225 gives an example of lobha-mula-cittas, accompanied by ditthi, which are sasankharika (prompted). A son of a noble family marries a woman who has wrong views and thus he associates with people who have wrong views. Gradually he accepts those wrong views and then they are pleasing to him. 25. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi which are sasankharika arise, for example, when one, though at first not attached to alcoholic drink, takes pleasure in it after someone else persuades one to drink. 26. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, accompanied by pleasant feeling, can arise for example, when we enjoy ourselves when seeing a beautiful colour or hearing an agreeable sound. At such moments we can be attached without taking what we see or hear for 'self'. When we enjoy beautiful clothes, go to the cinema, or laugh and talk with others about pleasurable things there can be many moments of enjoyment without the idea (of self) but there can also be moments with ditthi, moments of clinging to a ' self'. 27. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, accompanied by indifferent feeling may arise, for example, when we like to stand up, or like to take hold of different objects. Since we generally do not have happy feeling with these actions, there may be lobha with indifferent feeling at such moments. Thus we see that lobha often motivates the most common actions of our daily life. -ooOoo- Questions 1. When there is lobha (attachment) is there always somanassa (pleasant feeling) as well? 2. Does ditthi (wrong view) arise only with lobha-mula-citta? 3. How many types of lobha-mula-citta are there? Why is it useful to know this? 12756 From: egberdina Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Deanna, Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more simply, there is seeing. There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / sees form?? > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les > yeux." > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is > invisible to the eye." > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > panca-vinnana-citta. > 12757 From: dhamma101 Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: Advice needed for practical problem --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "dhamma101" wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I have this dilemma regarding taking action > > in my work regarding an unpleasant situation. > > If I had not read any spiritual literature > > and dhamma, I might not have had much > > difficulty in executing what I consider > > is the "right" thing. However, having > > read and contemplated upon some of the > > dhamma teachings, I am not sure on the course > > of action. > > > > If it is ok, I would prefer to send my question > > in a private email. If any of the senior > > members might be kind ebough to offer guidance > > I would appreciate it very much. > > Similarly, if any of you have had > > experience in applying dhamma in office > > situations (particularly being in a > > managerial position requiring to take > > disciplinary action) I would greatly appreciate > > it if you could send me an email at > > dhamma101@y... and hopefully give me > > some guidance. > > Hello Dai, > > There's a book that addresses just this very problem: how to apply > the Dharma to work situations, and specifically to the sorts of > issues you normally encounter, including what to do if you need to > take disiplinary action in situations (I assume) are like yours. > > The book is called "The Diamond Cutter" by Geshe Michael Roach. [...] Hi Erik, thank you very much for this recommendation. I had read about Geshe Michael but I had not read the book. I appreciate you pointing out the right book. With regards DaiWen 12758 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / sees form?? > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > __________ Dear Deana, If there were no colours or only one colour with no shades at all there could there be an idea of form. What "form" is is a contrast of differing shades and colours. best wishes robert 12759 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Dear Richard, Thanks for the name;-) Glad it’s not another Robert;-) --- portsofspeech wrote: > You quoted from A. Mun .......... (in brief) > "Once we see through inconstancy, > the mind-source stops creating issues. > All that remains is the primal mind, > true & unchanging." > > And most everyone in his tradition has similar statements. Now, > these may be only referring to the mind when it is free from all > attachments and released, and not some metaphysical Absolute as some > Mahayanists claim. But it may also be a distortion of the True > Teaching of Buddha and very dangerous if one truly wants to be freed > from rebirth. If one follows those teachings he might only end up > being reborn in the sphere of infinite consciousness or space. .......... Actually we’ve had discussions on these issues on DSG and Anders, I think it was, raised similar quotes which led into the 'luminous mind' discussions. They are also not helpful to me personally and bear little resemblance to what I read and understand in the Tipitaka, so I think we agree here. .......... > Just about every mystical school, from old Christian Gnostics to > modern day Advaita and Zen, speak about an infinite, radiant > consciousness which is our true Self and veiled behind our attachment > and identification with our thoughts. But the Buddha went beyond this > and identified these mystical experiences (and the knowledge derived > from them) as incomplete (i.e. the arupa-jhanas) and that they do > not, ultimately, lead to the end of suffering. He said, on the > contrary, there is ultimately nothing that is a self, whether it be a > primal consciousness or this frail body. The Theravadin Abhidhammic > tradition elaborates on it but does not nullify this teaching as so > many of the other Suttic schools did (like the Personalists, > Trancendentalists, Realists, etc.), as most all heresy hinged around > this 'self'/'not-self' teaching. .......... This is a good summary as I understand it and I’m impressed by your reasoning (though I’m a little lost in the last sentence). I certainly agree -- though many here might not;-)--that when there is the clinging to an idea of primal or any other underlying consciousness that it is an indication of an idea of something lasting, a self or soul or being. You may be hearing from one or two friends here like Rob Ep who will have a different take;-) .......... > Sorry. You can call me Richard and I've been studying traditional > Theravada for about a month now. > .......... At this rate of progress, I'll expect great things;-) I’m glad you’ve found us, Richard and I look forward to more of your summaries and insights. Best wishes, Sarah ================ 12760 From: Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi Sarah, <> Well, yeah, but dhammas are risen and then completely fallen away ;-) <> There are at least 4 different definitions of present (paccupana). 1. paccupana-atdha. This means present lifetime, started at patisandhicitta to juticitta in each one lifetime. 2. paccupana-samaya. This means present time like, today is a present time. 3. paccupana-santati. This means present because the rapid arising and falling away of dhamma and we perceive it as a continuum. Rupas rise and fall away but a chair is still chair!! 4. paccupana-khana. This refers to a single minute khana of citta, upada-thiti-bhanga khana. Thiti-khana is a future for upada-khana but a past for bhanga-khana. The continuum and rapid alternating of panca-dvara-vithi and mano-dvara-vitthi, called pancupana-santati. Rupas have been completely fallen away with the panca-dvara-vithi. But because it happens so fast and then we perceive it as a continuum. It said that with sharpness of panna, one might able to see that. Jon gave an analogy of water permeating through a 2 thin layers of paper. The water has to pass the first layer first but all we can see is both layers get wet at the same time. <> When I am thinking of nibbana, for me now, nibbana is just a pannatti. As you know, nibbana and concept do not rise and fall away. So both are time-independent (kala-vimutti). The cittas that have nibbana and pannatti as their aramana though, have been risen and then completely fallen away. Not long ago, Kom mentioned that concept of time comes with the fact that dhammas are risen and falenl away. Nibbana is a paramatthadhamma but concept is conventionally called a pannattidhamma. > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." > (from Le Petit Prince) The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of panca-vinnana-citta. <> Well, I am a bug lover, so I do not mind the worm at all (there is no rule without an exception, sorry bloodsucking leech, you are not welcome here)! I know that they will all turn into beautiful bugs sooner or later. One of my dreams when I was younger is to become an entomologist, (not to mention another 101 things I wanted to be or to do, including being at the top of Himalayas :-). Thanks and anumodana in your careful and in-detail consideration. Again, I do not mind cans of worms ;-) It's a "Bug Life":-) (Have you seen the movie? It's lovely, esp. the outtake at the end is so funny.) Best wishes. Num PS. I will respond to you mail, choice and suicide, off-list, OK. 12761 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 4:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Herman, Does cakkhu vinnana really experience depth? Or is that the function of thinking? metta, Sukin. Dear Deanna, Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more simply, there is seeing. There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / sees form?? > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les > yeux." > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is > invisible to the eye." > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > panca-vinnana-citta. > 12762 From: goglerr Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 2:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 4 (16-21) Dear Larry, These 10 types of wrong views the Buddha proclaimed could be explained in this manner. During the Buddha's time there were six very famous teachers. They preached their very own exotic doctrine, different from one to another. And also they have very large number of followers. (Just like modern times, different religion have their own followers.) For further reading pls refer to DN2 or The Discourse of Fruit of Recluseship (BPS, trans. B. Bodhi) - fantastic account from the sutta, comm, sub-comm and new sub-comm. Below are names of the teachers and their doctrine in brief. 1) Purana Kassapa - inefficacy of action, it denies volitional action that will produce any result on the future, therefore reject the notion of morality. 2) Makkhali Gosala - all actions are fated or destined. Every soul must go through a certain fixed course before attain liberation from samsara. 3) Ajita Kesambali - materialistic thinking, when this body dies, evrything dies with it, no continuity towards the next life, so no moral consequences. 4) Pakudha Kaccayana - indestructable soul, since the soul cannot be injured, even in killing there is no such thing as a killer or a victim, therefore no basis for morality. 5) Sanjaya Belatthaputta - when asked a question, he kept avoiding to answer the question directly, wriggle out with other counter questions (also called an eel-wriggler in pali). To add, Ven. Sariputta and Moggalana came from that sect before they found the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha also said he is the most deluded among the teachers. 6) Nigantha Nataputta - present day is called Jainism, though he proclaim restained from evil in different ways but the ways of doing them rejected by the Buddha. Pls refer to MN14 & MN101. They hold on so tightly on their notion of 'action or kamma' which think they know. But for a Buddha, with his claivoyance, see beings directly how they rise and passed away their respective destination according to their kamma. His many a disciples also sees them. So he could have proclaimed the 10 wrong views which are related to the notion of action or kamma, not by mere reflection. Of course these are not only the wrong views that the Buddha proclaimed. If u looked at DN1-Brahmajala Sutta, the Buddha mentioned the 62 kinds of 'not-so-right' views. If u like, Larry, u also can look into the 'The discourse on the all embracing net of view. (BPS. tran. B.Bodhi which incl. sutta, comm, sub-comm and new sub-comm). And if we sort of permutate those views, we will have (as you said) 'the limitless other crazy ideas we carry around our heads'. smile.smile. Hope my small contribution helps. Goglerr p.s - Well, I'm still trying to distangle all the entangled crazy ideas in my head. Wish me luck!! --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Goglerr, this is very interesting about the wrong views. Does this > mean that ditthi only falls into these categories? What about all the > limitless other crazy ideas we carry around in our heads? > > Larry > -------------------- > Goglerr wrote: > To add, there are 10 other kinds of wrong view found in the suttanta. > For e.g in Cullapunnama Sutta (MN. 110 and I'm sure there are other > suttas too). These are the following wrong views: > 1. There is nothing given (N'atthi dinnam.) > 2. There is nothing offered (N'atthi ittham.) > 3. There is nothing sacrified (N'atthi hutam.) > 4. No fruit or result of good and bad actions. > 5. No this world. > 6. No other world. > 7. No Mother > 8. No Father > 9. No beings who are reborn spontaneously. > 10. No good or virtous recluses and brahmins in the world who have > realised for themselves by direct knoewledge and declare this world and > the other world. > The first 3 are implying that there are no resultant from such an act. > No. 5 & 6 means those born here do not accept past existence, and those > living here do not accept a future life. No 7 & 8, means there is no > effect in anything done to them. Basically, it's the teachings of kamma > & its resultant in various forms. > Goglerr 12763 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:02am Subject: cultivated people Cool quote from a book I've been reading: Confucious said, "Cultivated people have nine thoughts. When they look, they think of how to see clearly. When they listen, they think of how to hear keenly. In regard to their appearance, they think of how to be warm. In their demeanor, they think of how to be respectful. In their speech, they think of how to be truthful. In their work, they think of how to be serious. When in doubt, they think of how to pose questions. When angry, they think of trouble. When they see gain to be had, they think of justice." 12764 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 8:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Herman, Sorry for the last post. After reading Robert's reply to Deana, I realized I made the wrong assumption that 'form' meant 3D. But it can be 2D I think. metta, Sukin. -----Original Message----- From: Sukinder [mailto:sukin@k...] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 4:15 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Herman, Does cakkhu vinnana really experience depth? Or is that the function of thinking? metta, Sukin. Dear Deanna, Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more simply, there is seeing. There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / sees form?? > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les > yeux." > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is > invisible to the eye." > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > panca-vinnana-citta. > 12765 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Hi, Erik - In a message dated 4/19/02 2:49:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Erik, > > Super photos of you both.....many thanks;-)) Best regards to Eath. > =========================== I concur with Sarah. Eath, it seems, can't take a bad picture! And the picture of you meditating is wonderful!! I'm really glad you posted these pix. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12766 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi, Shakti (and Num) - In a message dated 4/19/02 2:36:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, deannajohnsonusa@y... writes: > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written below. > But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / sees form?? > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary as > there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > =========================== I find this an interesting question. As I pay attention to what I actually see, it seems possible to me that in fact the eye may really only see colors (including differences in brightness/darkness). So then, what are the shapes/forms that we "see". They seem to be patterns of differences in color and brightness/darkness, and I suspect that these patterns are apprehended not by direct visual discernment, but rather by further mental processing. I cannot be sure of this, but that is the way it *seems* to me. With metta, Howard > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les > yeux." > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is essential is > invisible to the eye." > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something clearly or > > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > panca-vinnana-citta. > > > > > Well, I am a bug lover, so I do not mind the worm at all (there is no rule > without an exception, sorry bloodsucking leech, you are not welcome here)! > I > know that they will all turn into beautiful bugs sooner or later. One of my > > dreams when I was younger is to become an entomologist, (not to mention > another 101 things I wanted to be or to do, including being at the top of > Himalayas :-). > > Thanks and anumodana in your careful and in-detail consideration. Again, I > do > not mind cans of worms ;-) It's a "Bug Life":-) (Have you seen the movie? > It's lovely, esp. the outtake at the end is so funny.) > > Best wishes. > > Num > > PS. I will respond to your mail, choice and suicide, off-list, OK. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12767 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 8:54am Subject: Re: Mind: To Richard Dear Richard How are you? Would you care for the Buddha's own statement on mind? "...samkhittena pancupaadaanakkhadhaa dukkhaa." "In short, the five aggregates for obsession are misery." The above statement can be found in Section 1081, Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Mahaavagga Pali, Samyuttanikaayo. The Buddha was explaining the First Noble Truth that is misery. In terms of the five aggregates, mind is the aggregate of consciousness (viññaanakkhandhaa), and is for obsession (upaadaana) as the Buddha put it. And, as the goal of the Fourth Noble Truth that is the Noble Eightfold Path is to eradicate misery, the Buddha views the mind as a phenomenon for final termination - alongside the other four aggregates. Therefore, any view that regards mind or consciousness as something eternal or primodial is not the view of the Buddha, and falls outside the Buddha's teachings. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "portsofspeech" wrote: > Hello. > > I've read Thai Theravada texts, Sri Lankan and Burmese, amd I noticed > that in some of the Thai Theravada text (Thai forest tradition) they > speak of mind as a eternal thing (primordial awareness, etc.) like > they do in Mahayana. While Sri Lankan and Burmese texts talk of it as > anatta. > > Is there a real, concrete difference between the ways that some of > the Thai Forest Theravada schools define the mind and the Burmese / > Sri Lankan, or is it merely a difference in emphasis or terminology? > > Thanks! > > Metta 12768 From: dhamma101 Date: Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:18pm Subject: Sleep as state/sensation Hi all, sorry if this has already been discussed. While trying to notice the various dhammas sometimes sleep takes over. Is this considered the same as not continuing to note other things (such as I am now seeing/hearing), and going about the old reactionary way? For example, I am seeing, I am seeing, I am hearing, I am feeling, and then suddenly I answer the phone (without the intermediate notings - I am hearing the phone ring and I am reaching to answer it) and I am talking on the phone without awareness for some time before I return to noticing again. Is this similar to noting,... noting, falling asleep and waking up and noting or perhaps not noting? In advanced stages is it possible to note that there is the "sensation"(?) of sleep while one is sleeping, and by extension that one is dreaming? With regards, DW 12769 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Erik - > > In a message dated 4/19/02 2:49:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > > Hi Erik, > > > > Super photos of you both.....many thanks;-)) Best regards to Eath. > > > =========================== > I concur with Sarah. Eath, it seems, can't take a bad picture! And the > picture of you meditating is wonderful!! I'm really glad you posted these > pix. Hi Howard, As someone averse to having my photos taken or shown, I overcame my dosa and just did it! And Howard, I'll pass on your kind words to Eath. It was that 1,000-watt smile and the authentic kindness behind it that changed my life the day we met. To be able to remain positive and demonstrate by example the brahma viharas and the dana paramita--in spite of the enormous hardhsips she endured living under the Khmer Rouge and Vietnamese fighting, seeing family and friends lose their lives or limbs to the fighting or landmines, having barely enough of the necessities to live for years (and having to scrounge around in the jungle for the tiniest scraps of edible food, whataver it happened to be, during the bad times), that keeps me asking "how can anyone be so happy in spite of living with such hardship on a daily basis"? It has certainly put all my former worries and my personal feelings of having had a rough life into the proper perspective. Every time I feel the urge to kvetch, I just think of how lucky I am. And I really believe that this has been good all the way around (though not without serious obstacles which were just there as "tests" as I see it) and many people have benefitted so far, including her family. The bride fee bought them legal land (before they were living on illegal land about to be taken by the Apsara company that maintains Angkor) and there was enough leftover to build a house (for eleven family members) and fund a small business for her mom that lets her do much better money-wise than ever before. It has healed so much the enmity between her family that had been going on for years as well, and our last trip to Cambodia a couple of weeks ago was a true occasion for celebration to see formerly estranged family members together happily again. Right now we're filing for the US fiancee/marriage immigration visas and so Howard, maybe we'll see you back in NY within the next few months. Temporarily of course--long enough for her to get her US citizenship and a Dharma education from my lama and a university education in language studies (English & French for now). Cheers, Erik 12770 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Super photos of you both.....many thanks;-)) Best regards to Eath. > > --- rikpa21 wrote > > > To all the fellow DSG'ers I haven't said hello to in a while (since > > I've been dealing with the "dharma of daily life" and dealing with a > > lot of lobha mula citta action here on Koh Samui :), > > There's always a price to pay (i.e the lobha:-)). Hi Sarah, Yes, that damned lobha. I recall complaining a fwe months ago that all I'd been dealing were the dosa-mula-cittas and was ready for something that conditions lobha. Well, I got my wish. If there is one lesson in all of this, nota bene, that our first month in "paradise" was spent in complete misery. No kidding. It was a blinding illustration of the fact that happiness is not found in your surroundings, companions, or anything outside of the mind. What a wonderful lesson. > Glad you're both doing > well and I like your emphasis on dhamma in "real life" below. I see no > conflict at all with being a good businessperson and disciplinarian as > appropriate and interest/wisdom in dhamma. I've always found any > understanding helps rather than hinders in these regards. I agree completely. I met a great guy (American) living next door to us who'd left America for many of the reasons I had (he's a "day trader" and can work using Internet as well). We had many discussions about the role of honesty and ethics in the American workplace, and how difficult those standards are to maintain. His wonderful observation is that so long as you don't buy into the Eight Worldly Concerns, you immunize yourself to the problems of living and working within the greedy and unethical world of corporate capitalism, though it may (and in practical terms does) require giving up attachment to possessions, a fixed home, and all the things most people take for granted in "developed" societies. So his main point was in giving up attachment, and that is how he found his happiness. (For some reason I seem to meet Buddhas in disguise everywhere these days :). > I'm reminded of your kind reminders to me before about mudita (sympathetic > joy) vs the useless issa (envy) that so often arises when we hear of > others good news. Erik, I hope you both continue to enjoy your time in Koh > Samui and have many happy years together. Thankyou for all your other good > wishes for us all. I just want to add one comment. I've discovered there's a big difference between visiting a place like Samui for a few days and living here. We get used to things, begin taking things for granted. If this is as close to a deva realm as I'll find in this world, then I can understand even more why the emphasis should be in getting out of suffering in this lifetime. So even this is dukkha, albeit of a different nature. And I'm not unhappy at all about living what is something of a dream. Nevertheless, what became plain very quickly after moving here (for how long, who knows?) is that even upon acquiring the things we wish for, these are all forms of dukkha, and in time (if we're lucky, sooner rather than later), they all reveal their true nature as cheats--that satisfying the five strands of sensuality does nothing to quench the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion, and, in fact, can serve to increase them. As the great yogi Milarepa said: "If I could give you just one pith instruction for the attainment of lasting peace, abandon the Eight Worldly Concerns!" I hope you and Jon are well, as I wish for all my friends here, that all may be free from suffering in all its forms, and QUICKLY! :) Cheers, Erik 12771 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Hi, Erik - In a message dated 4/19/02 9:37:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rikpa21@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Erik - > > > > In a message dated 4/19/02 2:49:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > > > > > Hi Erik, > > > > > > Super photos of you both.....many thanks;-)) Best regards to > Eath. > > > > > =========================== > > I concur with Sarah. Eath, it seems, can't take a bad > picture! And the > > picture of you meditating is wonderful!! I'm really glad you > posted these > > pix. > > Hi Howard, > > As someone averse to having my photos taken or shown, I overcame my > dosa and just did it! And Howard, I'll pass on your kind words to > Eath. It was that 1,000-watt smile and the authentic kindness behind > it that changed my life the day we met. > > To be able to remain positive and demonstrate by example the brahma > viharas and the dana paramita--in spite of the enormous hardhsips > she endured living under the Khmer Rouge and Vietnamese fighting, > seeing family and friends lose their lives or limbs to the fighting > or landmines, having barely enough of the necessities to live for > years (and having to scrounge around in the jungle for the tiniest > scraps of edible food, whataver it happened to be, during the bad > times), that keeps me asking "how can anyone be so happy in spite of > living with such hardship on a daily basis"? It has certainly put > all my former worries and my personal feelings of having had a rough > life into the proper perspective. Every time I feel the urge to > kvetch, I just think of how lucky I am. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How wonderful! I'm *very* happy for you. (Hmm, you said "kvetch". I see they can't take the "New Yorker" out of you!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > And I really believe that this has been good all the way around > (though not without serious obstacles which were just there > as "tests" as I see it) and many people have benefitted so far, > including her family. The bride fee bought them legal land (before > they were living on illegal land about to be taken by the Apsara > company that maintains Angkor) and there was enough leftover to > build a house (for eleven family members) and fund a small business > for her mom that lets her do much better money-wise than ever > before. It has healed so much the enmity between her family that had > been going on for years as well, and our last trip to Cambodia a > couple of weeks ago was a true occasion for celebration to see > formerly estranged family members together happily again. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Beautiful. ------------------------------------------------- > > Right now we're filing for the US fiancee/marriage immigration visas > and so Howard, maybe we'll see you back in NY within the next few > months. > ------------------------------------------------ That will be great! I would really love to see you again, and also to have the opportunity to meet your lovely, radiant wife. ------------------------------------------------ Temporarily of course--long enough for her to get her US > > citizenship and a Dharma education from my lama and a university > education in language studies (English & French for now). > > Cheers, > Erik > ========================== With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12772 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 3:52pm Subject: Re:Mind A few quotes on Mind from the Pali Sutta's. That which is called"mind"(citta),"mentality"(mano)and"consciousness" (vinnana), arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and night.Samyutta12:61 -------------- Citta. Bhikkhus, I see no other single Thing more susceptible to rapid change as the Mind(citta). It is no easy thing, Bhikkhu's to describe how quickly the Mind changes. Anguttara 1's,48 ------------- Vinnana. A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a perception, a mental formation, a consciousness(Vinnana), which is permanent and stable,eternal and not subject to change, this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing; and I too say that it does not exist.S. XXII. 94 The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness has come to its end.:Dabba Sutta(from ATI) "When there is utterly no consciousness,would name and form be discerned?" No Venerable Sir. "When there is utterly no name and form,no six sense bases,no contact,no feeling,no craving,no clinging,no Bhava,no birth,with the cessation of birth,would ageing and death be discerned?" No Venerable sir Good, good Bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in me about this,Bhikkhus,resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt about this. Just this is the end of Suffering" :Samyutta12:52 ---------- Mano. The mind(mano) is impermanent.What is impermanent is Dukkha. Samyutta 35:1 ---------- The mind is impermanent,changing,becoming otherwise. Mind-consciousness is impermanent,changing becoming other wise. The cause and condition for the arising of mind-consciousness is also impermanent,changing,becoming otherwise. When Bhikkhus mind-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent,how could it be permanent? Samyutta35:93 All Samyutta quotes Translated By Bhikkhu Bodhi With Metta Stigan 12773 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 8:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Kom, I was wondering if abhidhamma has a special way of explaining this link in paticcasamuppada: with feeling as condtion, craving arises. For example, what kind of condition is it? And why does feeling condition craving? Larry 12774 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 8:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Kom, I was wondering if abhidhamma has a special way of explaining > this link in paticcasamuppada: with feeling as condtion, craving arises. > For example, what kind of condition is it? And why does feeling > condition craving? > > Larry __________ Dear Larry, I think this can be seen as it happens. I think we live our life chasing pleasant feeling and trying to avoid unpleasant feeling. best wishes robert 12775 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 8:49pm Subject: dsg - self view? Hi Larry, Perhaps self - view or craving for a self arises from identification with perceived pleasant and unpleasant feelings that arise. For example when love or compassion arises we may think how wonderful WE - SELF is to have such wonderful feelings. When negative mind states and feelings arise we may push them away (aversion) judging that "these states" certainly can't be ME - SELF thereby reinforcing our sense or concept of who we think we are. What do you think? Shakti LBIDD@w... wrote: 12776 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL dh. 4 (22-27) The question as follows is: when there is lobha - attachment is there always pleasant feelings as well? I would have to say no and I will use a personal example. As a parent I have been very attached to my children. There have been times when my daughter wanted more freedom and I tended to cling not only to her but also to ideas that I had. I clearly did not want to let go of her or ideas that I had about how I thought things should be. The more attachment I felt the more I was suffering. It was not a pleasant situation at all. The only way that pleasant feelings began to arise were when I let go. Shakti LBIDD@w... wrote: from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 4, paragraphs 22 - 27 22. It is useful to learn the Pali terms and their meaning, because the English translation does not render the meaning of realities very clearly. 23. The eight types of lobha-mula-citta are: 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam ) 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam) 24. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be asankharika (unprompted) or sasankharika (prompted). The 'Atthasalini' 225 gives an example of lobha-mula-cittas, accompanied by ditthi, which are sasankharika (prompted). A son of a noble family marries a woman who has wrong views and thus he associates with people who have wrong views. Gradually he accepts those wrong views and then they are pleasing to him. 25. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi which are sasankharika arise, for example, when one, though at first not attached to alcoholic drink, takes pleasure in it after someone else persuades one to drink. 26. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, accompanied by pleasant feeling, can arise for example, when we enjoy ourselves when seeing a beautiful colour or hearing an agreeable sound. At such moments we can be attached without taking what we see or hear for 'self'. When we enjoy beautiful clothes, go to the cinema, or laugh and talk with others about pleasurable things there can be many moments of enjoyment without the idea (of self) but there can also be moments with ditthi, moments of clinging to a ' self'. 27. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, accompanied by indifferent feeling may arise, for example, when we like to stand up, or like to take hold of different objects. Since we generally do not have happy feeling with these actions, there may be lobha with indifferent feeling at such moments. Thus we see that lobha often motivates the most common actions of our daily life. -ooOoo- Questions 1. When there is lobha (attachment) is there always somanassa (pleasant feeling) as well? 2. Does ditthi (wrong view) arise only with lobha-mula-citta? 3. How many types of lobha-mula-citta are there? Why is it useful to know this? 12777 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg - self view? Hi Shakti, I agree we definitely have these thoughts and feelings but I think this question has something to do with the desire for rebirth or no rebirth. I couldn't figure it out so I gave up and looked up the answer in "The First Discourse Of The Buddha" by Dr. Rewata Dhamma. As I understand it, craving for existence or becoming (bhava-tanha) is the desire to perform wholesome kamma for future pleasant results. Craving for nonexistence (vibhava-tanha) is hoping or believing that one's desire motivated activities will have no moral consequences. So perhaps we could say bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha are two ways of exploiting sense pleasures (kama-tanha). This doesn't seem to be the actual 'spot' where self is conceived, as I first thought. But it is similar to your observation of identifying with pleasant or virtuous feelings and rejecting painful feelings (and thereby rejecting our 'self'?). Larry ------------------------ Shakti wrote: Hi Larry, Perhaps self - view or craving for a self arises from identification with perceived pleasant and unpleasant feelings that arise. For example when love or compassion arises we may think how wonderful WE - SELF is to have such wonderful feelings. When negative mind states and feelings arise we may push them away (aversion) judging that "these states" certainly can't be ME - SELF thereby reinforcing our sense or concept of who we think we are. What do you think? Shakti 12778 From: goglerr Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Goglerr, so tanha is craving for sense pleasure plus craving to be a > 'self' in either an eternalistic or nihilistic way, but lobha-mula- citta > is attachment to sense pleasure only? > > Also, I was wondering how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises from > feeling (vedana). > > thanks, really enjoying your contributions, > > Larry ------------------------------------- Hi Larry, I hope your well. Perhaps the question should be < … but lobha-mula-citta is attachment to pleasurable sense objects only?> rather than <... but lobha-mula-citta is attachment to sense pleasure only?> Is it OK? I'll try share.... Lobha-mula-cittani (as u already know) there are 8 types cittani, 4 associated with pleasant feeling and another 4 with neutral feeling, that is to say, when the mind is attached to `pleasant' or `neutral' sense objects which arise from the 6 sense doors, lobha arises. Then one may ask `how does a mind differentiate whether the objects are pleasant or neutral'. I would say a `preconceive' notion of past experiences. Could it be a distorted `sanna' at work? Maybe. Sanna has the function of recognizing what has been previously perceived. Though your second question has only line, but it may take loooooong explanation. But briefly, let's see how shall we begin. These are the three underlying defilements (anusaya kilesa) – craving, conceit, and view (tanha, mana, ditthi). They occur in lobha- mula-cittani. Craving is the cetasika occurs in every state of lobha- mula-cittani. Sometimes it occurs without conceit or views, at other times one or the other but never simultaneously. Nevertheless, though they occurring separately, conceit and view may reinforce each other. Personality view synonymous to the clinging to the doctrine of self. It is the most subtle to comprehend among the other three types of clinging. It arises from the underlying tendencies of views (ditth'anusaya). So when this tendency is not uprooted, we still run around in samsara. How does one or many self-view/s arises? In Cullavedalla Sutta (MN 44), it is mentioned there 20 types of personality view which connected to the 5 agg. And we divide each agg in 4 types, therefore we have 20 types. For e.g in the material agg. 1) one regards material form is self, i.e. the body is the self or the self is the body. 2) one regards the self as the possessor of the material form – here the non-material which is the mind (the other 4 agg) regarded as self. This non-material self (`I') is one thing and material form is another thing. Therefore the self (`I') is the owner of the material form. 3) one regards material form as in a self - The concept of self here is also maintained in the relation to the other four non- material agg. The holder of this view will maintained that material form is one thing, the non-material self is the other; that material form exist `in' this non-material self. [This will be more clear if you see it see it from the mind basis, for e.g. the feeling: feeling is one thing, the non-feeling self – the other 4 agg - is another.The feeling exists `in' this non-feeling self]. Illustration - imagine of a fried egg with sunny side up, the material form is the yolk and the egg white is the self. 4) one regard the self as in material form - material form is one thing, the non-material self is the other; that self exist `in' this material form. The self is the yolk and the egg white is the material form. Let's play a game. Then with that above understanding, we figure out the rest of the 15 types. Though we still attached with these views, nevertheless if u could list them all down, then u may to see some of them stand out. They are more prominent or familiar with us. It could be one or two or more. Actually and deeply, each one of us has different `views' about self in regards to the 5 agg. In the Patisambhidhamagga, mentioned that the no 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 type or in other word first type of each aggregates, are based on annihilism and the rest (the other 15 types) are based on externalism. So there you are, how these craving for annihilism and externalism are formed. When any of the views arises, we became engrossed with them, we relished them, viewing them that they are something `real', somewhat permanent, beautiful, a source of happiness, and self, thereby reinforcing of the anusaya kilesa of craving, conceit and views. Other words, the roots grow deeper without us knowing. Then the real nature of phenomena (things as they really are) is concealed by the false appearances that we wrongly ascribe to them. This error leads to the fabrication of mistaken notions, ideas, theories and suppositions. The fabrication activity are refer aa 'imagination' (ma~n~nana) and to its products as imaginings (ma~n~nita). The word `ma~n~nita is synonymous with `papancita' - conceptual proliferation (are u familiar with `papanca'?) When the imaginations are proliferated, they become clear. The mental objects become very gross to an ardent insight observer. In this stage is where we refer them as clinging. A question for u or anybody. In what ways does this clinging to personality view spread itself? Try to look into Yavalakapi Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya. Well, these little sharing will be helpful. Have a nice weekend. Goglerr p.s – Some references if you need further reading – `The Sevesn Contemplation of Insight' by Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama Mahathera,BPS; 'The Selfless Mind' by Peter Harvey, Curzon Press. 12779 From: Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Goglerr, thank you very much for these two posts: one on wrong views and the other on how personality view develops. This is really great; especially the one on personality view, a good explanation with points I hadn't seen before. This gives me a much clearer way of looking at it. Lots to contemplate!! thanks very much, Larry 12780 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question of Reference Howard One or two random thoughts, loosely related to your post. 1. On the vexed and long-standing issue of the ‘validity’ of the Abhidhamma as the word of the Buddha himself, I doubt that this is capable of being proved beyond doubt one way or the other. But I wonder if it really matters. I think the abhidhamma can be taken at its face value, as a working hypothesis, not as 'gospel' to be embraced but as the closest thing we have to the Buddha's actual teaching and so to be considered, reflected upon and 'put to the test'. This is in fact much the basis on which we approach the sutta texts also, given the inevitability of some degree of corruption of the text over the centuries. Approached in this manner, I suggest it’s not necessary to try to settle the question of authenticity conclusively, although we can I think take some comfort in the fact that the texts we have are fairly clearly the orthodox Theravadin tradition of their time. 2. Unlike you, I do not find the suttas 'quite good enough' in the sense of being fully meaningful when read on their own (although there was a time when I saw it otherwise). The meaning is too obscure to be understood without the elucidation provided by the abhidhamma or the commentaries to the suttas. (This of course reflects my own lack of understanding rather than any shortcoming on part of the suttas themselves.) I find that, as a general rule, those who claim to be content with the ‘plain meaning’ of the suttas are actually doing quite a lot of elucidating of their own. The understanding of the nature of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path would be one example of this (I can find no support in the sutta texts, or ancient commentaries, for a description of the Noble Eightfold Path as an 8-step program – this interpretation is only found among relatively modern-day commentators, to my knowledge). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 4/14/02 4:53:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > > > Howard > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > > Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert K and others believe that Abhidhamma > > Pitaka > > > was, obviously with the exception of works like the Kathavatthu, created > > by > > > the Buddha. I would be very interested in seeing two categories of > > things: > > > (1) References to suttas in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and (2) References to > > > parts of the Abhidhamma Pitaka in the Sutta Pitaka. Are these to be > > found, > > > and, if so, where? > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > There are numerous cross-references in the Abhidhamma pitaka to specific > > passages in the Suttanta pitaka, but not the other way around (as far as I > > know). However, I would not be too hasty to jump to any 'obvious' > > conclusion > > from this. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I wouldn't want to be hasty either. And I'm not prepared by any means > to settle on an absolute conclusion. But I *would* expect to see, among the > enormous number of suttas, *some* references to the Abhidhamma Pitaka if that > > were created by the Buddha. I did find Stigan's mention of a reference to the > > Abhidhamma in the Vinaya to be quite interesting. Do you (or does anyone > here) know the vintage of that Vinaya reference? > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > As discussed in previous posts, the suttas themselves include a number of > > 'abhidhamma' references (i.e., teachings given in terms of paramattha > > dhammas > > rather than the more usual conventional language). These references were > > what > > was judged appropriate and sufficient for the particular audience at the > > time. > > There would have been no point in cross-referring to another body of > > teachings. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, the foregoing expresses a view, a view which already presupposes > > the very status of the Abhidhamma Pitaka that is being discussed. If the > suttas are actually what the Buddha taught, and the Abhidhamma Pitaka is a > later development which expands on the detail of the content of the suttas, > then it is a kind of "back reference" to call content of the suttas > Abhidhammic. In any case, the Buddha taught the Dhamma in the suttas, which > is quite good enough. Also, by "Abhidhamma references" in the suttas, I don't > > mean content similar to content to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I mean > references in the suttas to *that basket* called the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or to > > well definable parts of that basket, especially the two main works of > analysis and synthesis. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > In general terms, the abhidhamma pitaka expounds on and amplifies the > > material > > contained in the suttas and not vice versa, so you would not expect to find > > > in > > the suttas elaboration on the abhidhamma. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not looking for elaboration, merely references - such as " > Bhikkhus, finer detail about the influence of dhammas on dhammas can be found > > in the subtle Patthana teachings which I have given. My lieutenant, > Sariputta, will speak of this to those of you for whom this will be useful." > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > The suttas were delivered to individuals and were tailored to the > > circumstances > > of that particular occasion, whereas the abhidhamma was given as a complete > > body of teaching, more like a source of reference (as far as the human > > plane is > > concerned). > > > > Just 1 or 2 random thoughts. > > > > Jon > > > > > ========================= > With metta, > Howard 12781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base: Food for thought Goglerr --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Jon, TG and all, > > Since the discussion is on heart base, the base for consciousness in > the Abhidhamma sense, kindly let me add some food for thought. > > When vipassana meditators experience anger or greed, they said they > arise from the heart area. And when they experience restless mind or > thinking, they said they appear somewhere in the forehead area. Yes, but the place where a mental experience 'appears' to be coming from may have no bearing on its actual place of arising. The abhidhamma texts do not suggest that the place of arising can become apparent to the individual. > In the Comp. Manual of Adhm (B. Bodhi) in the third chapter > (Compedium of Miscellaneous) under the heading of Compedium of Bases) > pg 144-148 especially the chart at pg147 – they detailed out > certain > consciousness always arise from the heart and other consciousness > arise sometimes from the heart and still some may not arise at all > from the heart. Interesting!!! In those spheres where there is no rupa (matter other than nama), there is only consciusness and other nama. Hence, no 'place' of arising. > In modern days, when we go for a heart transplant, do we > `change' our mind? ;-). I'm puzzled…………. I of course do not know the answer to this, but I don't take the description of the heatbase as meaning that anything physically resides in the heart organ as we know it. I agree, it is puzzling! Jon 12782 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Larry, I found this article helpful regarding 'feeling' or 'sensation'. "Vedana In Paticcasamuppada" from the Vipassana Research Institute http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha037.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Kom, I was wondering if abhidhamma has a special way of explaining > this link in paticcasamuppada: with feeling as condtion, craving arises. > For example, what kind of condition is it? And why does feeling > condition craving? > > Larry 12783 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 0:47am Subject: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear All, In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a person does control what happens in their lives regarding intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was further stated that MN117 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html "shot holes" in "no control" and that this 'dogma'(presumably "no control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt I was getting a good handle on no control :)) Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? metta, Christine 12784 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 2:00am Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- Dear Christine, We can live very productive and happy lives with an idea of self and a belief in control. We can develop kusala and samatha and jhana of all levels; but not vipassana or the lokuttara jhanas. By the 4th kind of kamma you are probably referring to Majjhima Nikaya 57 Kukkuravatika Sutta: "What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor- bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and- bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening. """ This is the four supramundane paths and fruits. It is the culmination of the eighfold path. For the arahant there is cetana, intention, but it is kiriya (see many details on this in the Abhidhammathasangaha)it cannot give result. There is no new kamma being made. Only if there is right view is the eightfactored path being developed: "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" When we think of intention and choice and being able to control, this is thinking and it is not understanding the nature of cetana, intention, as a momentary phenomena -it cannot last even for a split second, nor can any feelings or consciousness. In the Nidanavagga (book of causation about Paticcasamuppada) the Buddha said in several suttas "Bhikkhus what one intends and what one plans and whatever one has a tendency towards this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness..when consciousness is established there is the production of renewed existence, birth, ageing, death, sorrow ... BUT bhikkhus when one does not intend, and one does not plan and one does not have a tendency toward anything no basis exists for consciousness...there is no production of renewed existence..no birth, ageing, death, sorrow,.."endquote see 576Bodhi We have much ignorance about dhammas, they have to be known in detail. But when we emphasise intention and effort the knowing will be tied up with craving - and then the links of the Paticcasamuppada are strenghtened. Acharn Sujin always says that it must be with detachment otherwise self slips in and distorts. Best wishes robrt In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? > > metta, > Christine 12785 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 2:05am Subject: Re: Dosa and Renunciation (Some Clarification) Manji I notice that renunciation has been quite a theme of your last few posts. Is this something you are particularly interested in at the moment, and could you explain how you see it as being relevant in your life? Thanks. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > "There is suffering" is for all being, but this past post in particular > is on renunciation and a being living renunciation (monks perhaps could > be read here), and living "guarding the doors". I think you are pointing out here the connection between guarding the sense-doors and renunciation. I like this reminder. would you, then, see renunciation as being applicable to the lay life just as much as to the monk's life? I guess another way of putting this is, can there be guarding the sense-doors 'on the run', in one's daily life? Jon 12786 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 2:18am Subject: Dosa and Renunciation Manji An interesting point you raise here: --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > This may seem quite odd, but it seems that this > "there is dukkha" is not that all objects are dukkha, instead it is that > there is dukkha arising with all objects. I think this distinction is > most important. This is a fine distinction, and I would be interested to know what you see as being it's significance. Does it mean that dukkha is something separate from dhammas (phenomena of existence)? I have always thought of dukkha as being a characteristic (lakkahna) of dhammas, but I think this distinction suggests otherwise. Look forward to your comments. > Some rambling: (I am using renunciate for a being "living renunciation") > > "There is suffering" is for the renunciate. > > This would make sense since no thing possesses a permanent, eternal (!) > and independent nature. If all things carried dukkha then there could be > no ending of it, and considering there are pleasant feeling arising > without dukkha, what seems to happen (for the renunciate) is that there > is a general "distaste" arising with all rupa, because of knowing/seeing > "dependent origination". I see you are on Howard's side in the role/significance of D.O. in the development of understandignof dhammas. I think I'm outnumbered here! > Specifically I believe that "there is cause" can be understood more > conventionally or with respects to the renunciate, there is a cause of > this "general" suffering arising with all rupa. In this case what is > this one cause? > > So on the surface it seems that one must endure this dukkha, which only > becomes more powerful when knowing "there is cause". However, for the > renunciate identification with dukkha is the cause. The lord said "there > is suffering", which is quite different than "the world is suffering" or > that any rupa is the cause of suffering. Knowing this, knowing cause, > for the renunciate seems to sever the ties of "self-identification" and > leads to the wisdom of annata. > > There is cessation, and there is path. Otherwise stated, cessation is > arising with the wisdom of anatta, which arises with the path. > > > However, with regards to nibanna and paranibbana, there can be no > causation of nibanna as ... (wow, insight) need not say more. > > So about renunciation, it is most auspicious, and there is sincere > effort. With regards to tantra, just being mindful of renunciations, > renunciates, and the practice serves to cultivate this renunciation > aspect. So for the renunciate it is thus said... > > "There is suffering". > > This is most auspicious. All of which seem to reflect the traditions of > our Christian brothers as well. I think I catch your drift here, but I'm not sure why you stress so much the life of the renunciate. Has there been a recent change in your thinking on this? Looking forward to your comments. Jon 12787 From: egberdina Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Sukin, I have also read your other reply after reading Robert's post. I think that depth is first a function of the stereoscopic nature of seeing ie we have two eyes. There is much that can be learnt about seeing without the need for advanced technology or literature. Walk around doing your normal activities with one eye closed. How is seeing different? Is thinking involved? If you normally wear glasses, take them off. If you don't, borrow a pair and put them on. Is seeing different? How? Is thinking involved? Look cross-eyed. What do you see? I agree with what Robert said about the seeing of shape, with the proviso that it requires the simultaneous and parallel activation of a large number of sense bases, not the single, sequential functioning of a single sense-base. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Does cakkhu vinnana really experience depth? Or is that the > function of thinking? > > metta, > Sukin. > > > Dear Deanna, > > Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two > different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, > the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in > each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist > independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires > eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . > > In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more > simply, there is seeing. > > There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson > wrote: > > > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written > below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / > sees form?? > > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary > as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > > > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour > les > > yeux." > > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is > essential is > > invisible to the eye." > > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something > clearly or > > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through > the > > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > > panca-vinnana-citta. > > 12788 From: egberdina Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:37am Subject: Neither seeing, nor not-seeing Hi all, I would be very interested to receive feedback on this. The neither this, nor not-this, is a common formulation in Buddhist literature. I am wondering if my application of this is correct. You may be familiar with the blind spot in the human eye. It is a location in the visual field where there is no vision. You can try this for yourself by eg visiting http://littleshop.physics.colostate.edu/Blind.html The open eye sees objects. We say, seeing. The closed eye still sees, but sees no objects. We say, not seeing. The blind spot is neither seeing nor not-seeing. All the best Herman 12789 From: Sarah Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 4 (16-21) Dear Goglerr, I'm finding your contributions a real pleasure to read and am very impressed by all the excellent detail (and references) as in this post which I've snipped after the first sentence for now: --- goglerr wrote: > > These 10 types of wrong views the Buddha proclaimed could be > explained in this manner. > Hope my small contribution helps. This is a very modest comment as you are making some very precious contributions indeed. > Goglerr > p.s - Well, I'm still trying to distangle all the entangled crazy > ideas in my head. Wish me luck!! Hopefully, we can all encourage each other and appreciate these helpful conditions (i.e listening, considering, discussing and so on) for panna to develop. Beginning to recognize the crazy ideas and papanca for what they are is pretty important;-) Anumodana, Sincere thanks and hope to discuss further after the weekend. Sarah ============= 12790 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hi, Robert (and Christine) - In a message dated 4/20/02 5:01:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > In the Nidanavagga > (book of causation about Paticcasamuppada) the Buddha said in several > suttas > "Bhikkhus what one intends and what one plans and whatever one has a > tendency towards this becomes a basis for the maintenance of > consciousness..when consciousness is established there is the > production of renewed existence, birth, ageing, death, sorrow ... > BUT bhikkhus when one does not intend, and one does not plan and one > does not have a tendency toward anything no basis exists for > consciousness...there is no production of renewed existence..no > birth, ageing, death, sorrow,.."endquote see 576Bodhi > ============================== I think this is *very* important material. It is sankhara, the chief of which is cetana, that propels the cart - that is the motive force. For there to occur the "stepping out" to nibbana wherein there is neither separate subject nor separate object, where the two mutually supporting sheaves of vi~n~nana and namarupa have fallen, there must be a radical and complete *letting go*. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12791 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) <<<<<<< (Larry: Hi Num, is lobha mula citta the same as tanha, or does tanha have a wider meaning as regards the second noble truth (cause of dukkha)? . . . . . . . . . Goglerr: Lobha-mula-citta is a citta (consciousness)and in conjuction with that citta, tanha is appear as a cetasika i.e. lobha cetasika. From Num posting, in daily life these lobha cetasika has many names. As we know that tanha or craving has these 3 kinds - craving for sensual sensual desire, existence and non existence. Craving for sensual desire are involve the five sense bases (longing, wanting, desire, lust etc) whereas craving the views of existence or non- existence (i.e. disregard kamma and its effect, eternity - a view of permanency, soul and creator theory - as a sense of self) are the mind base. Therefore tanha has the wider meaning bcos it arise from all the six sense bases - which create the whole mass or mess of dukkha. >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Larry, Goglerr and ADL group Let me say hi to Goglerr first. Thanks and I really appreciate your detailed and insightful input. Hope you don't mind me slicing this topic some more. As Goglerr said tanha refers to lobha cetasika. Citta that accompanied by lobha-cetasika called lobha-mula-citta. The main ability of citta is to know its object. Cetasikas accompanied citta and perform each of its own function simultaneously. Lobha-cetasika has a function of sticking. Tanha has character of grasping. We can slice the meat in different ways. No matter what how we slice it, tanha's (lobha-cetasika) main character and function are grasping and sticking. 1. As to its aramana 1.1 Rupa-tanha: crave for rupamana (color). 1.2 Satta-tanha: crave for sattaramana (sound). 1.3 Gandha-tanha: crave for gabdharamana (odor). 1.4 Rasa-tanha: crave for rasamana (taste). 1.5 Photthabba-tanha: crave for photthabbarammana (tangible object through body sense). 1.6 Dhamma-tanha: crave for dhammaramana (all dhammayatana, 5 sense rupa (sense door), all manayatana, and pannati). 2. As to its manifestation: kama-tanha, bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. 2.1 Kama-tanha. Clinging in all 6 aramanas but does not accompany by mica-ditthi. 2.2 Bhava-tanha: Clinging in all 6 aramanas and accompany by sassata-ditthi (eternity belief) for example longing for birth as human, angel, form/formless brahma, clinging in jhana form or formless, clinging with eternity or stability belief. 2.3 Vibhava-tanha: Clinging in all 6 aramanas and accompany by anihilation belief (ucheta-ditthi). Cling with the view that self or entity exists but will not last forever. Self or entity will cease or completely disappear. This includes belief that there is no consequence of action or kamma, both kusala or akusala. Also belief that nibbana is self, something permanence and wish to attain nibbana b/c this will be the end of all. Tanha can grasp jhana or even early vipassana nnana as their objects. Tanha vs. Upadana: You mentioned Paticcasamuppatha rgd. tanha and upadana. As I understand it, the substance of both tanha and upadana is lobha cetasika. Tanha is kind of longing for something that we haven't had it yet or the satisfaction from our first encounter of whatever object. Upadana is kind of the plasticity of that longing/satisfaction or grasping of whatever object we have already got, without letting it goes. Have to run for a tennis match. Best wishes, Num 12792 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Christine, thanks for this article, very good. It is by S.N. Goenka's group. They put a lot of emphasis on feeling (vedana), which they translate as sensation, as object of satipatthana meditation. I've read some of their books and like them a lot. Also I've heard they put on a good introduction to meditation program. If you haven't had a taste of that I think this would be a good place to dive in. Larry ------------------ Christine wrote: Hi Larry, I found this article helpful regarding 'feeling' or 'sensation'. "Vedana In Paticcasamuppada" from the Vipassana Research Institute http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha037.htm metta, Christine 12793 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Num (Goglerr & Shakti), Bh. Buddhaghosa has a slightly different interpretation of bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha (Vsm XVIII 233). He says this refers to the permanence or impermanence (with 'self') of the object of pleasant feeling (physical or mental). For example, thinking that a cup of tea will last forever. This seems a little unsatisfactory to me. I think Goglerr's suggestion that bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha refers to personality belief is much more interesting. I pondered on this for awhile and it occurred to me that the desire to be and desire to not be are both concerned with the avoidance of kamma. Bhava-tanha is the desire for an eternal self and vibhava-tanha is the desire for a self that ceases at death and thereby avoids kammic retribution in the next life. Both are means of skirting kamma by a fabricated self. In terms of modern conventions, we might say thinking things (meaning my situation) will stay the same is equivalent to this eternal 'self' which is aloof from all kamma. The practical every-day mind that goes about its business of solving problems is equivalent to vibhava-tanha which avoids kamma by expedient means. The main reason for avoiding kamma is that kamma hurts (dukkha). So these two basic personality beliefs arise as a strategy to avoid dukkha. Conceit, another form of 'self', could be considered as a mental object of craving for pleasant feeling, i.e. the desire to feel good about oneself. The second noble truth gives craving for pleasant feeling and craving for bhava and vibhava as the cause of dukkha. This bhava and vibhava is actually a strategy to avoid dukkha by creating or finding a self. So the desire to escape dukkha is a primary cause of dukkha. The end of desire is the end of dukkha. The noble eight fold way is the way to desirelessness. If you know of any other textual or commentarial discussions of this subject, I would be interested. What do you think? Larry 12794 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) - Mr. Goenka and 4 elements Hi, As a student of S. N. Goenka's I agree that alot of emphasis is on watching sensation as it arises. One watches the body sensations and feelings, the breath and whatever arises in the mind all with non-judgement. If you haven't taken a meditation course yet or have studied with other teachers Vipassana as taught by Mr. Goenka is certainly insightful and is a wonderful tool to help the development of wisdom. Mr. Goenka is planning a north american tour April thru August 2002. He will visit many cities starting with NYC on April 21st. For more information please visit www.meditationnow.org In regards to another discussion item. I am contemplating the 4 elements in the body when I do sitting practice. As I watch sensations arise and fall I try to pay attention if they are water, earth, air or fire. I also am contemplating as the body moves and feel that the air or wind is what moves when walking / walks. As I watch the body while sitting I wonder if the "pain" that is felt in the knees at times is in fact air that is not moving - tension??? Is anyone else comtemplating the 4 elements in their ev.day awareness practice or have insights that they can share? Shakti LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Christine, thanks for this article, very good. It is by S.N. Goenka's group. They put a lot of emphasis on feeling (vedana), which they translate as sensation, as object of satipatthana meditation. I've read some of their books and like them a lot. Also I've heard they put on a good introduction to meditation program. If you haven't had a taste of that I think this would be a good place to dive in. Larry ------------------ Christine wrote: Hi Larry, I found this article helpful regarding 'feeling' or 'sensation'. "Vedana In Paticcasamuppada" from the Vipassana Research Institute http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha037.htm metta, Christine 12795 From: goglerr Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) - Mr. Goenka and 4 elements --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: >Is anyone else comtemplating the 4 elements in their ev.day awareness practice or have insights that they can share? > Shakti I can to share whatever I know. For now I don't know where to start! I'll drop a few lines whatever are beneficial and whenever there is the right time. Have a nice mindful day. Smile goggy 12796 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi, Larry (and Christine) - In a message dated 4/20/02 6:42:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Christine, thanks for this article, very good. It is by S.N. Goenka's > group. They put a lot of emphasis on feeling (vedana), which they > translate as sensation, as object of satipatthana meditation. I've read > some of their books and like them a lot. Also I've heard they put on a > good introduction to meditation program. If you haven't had a taste of > that I think this would be a good place to dive in. > > Larry ========================== I attended one 10-day Goenka meditation retreat. It was superb! With metta, Howard > ------------------ > Christine wrote: > Hi Larry, > I found this article helpful regarding 'feeling' or 'sensation'. > "Vedana In Paticcasamuppada" > from the Vipassana Research Institute > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha037.htm > metta, > Christine > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12797 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) <<<<<<< Dear Deanna, Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more simply, there is seeing. There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html >>>>> Dear Herman and Deana, Let me k.i.s.s, keep it short and simple. Both rod and cone cells are just photosensitive cells, photoreceptor. Rods are active only under low light levels and not involved in color vision). Anyway, we cannot separate light and color apart. Photo-perception and visual-perception (form/shape/depth/dimension/ 3-d: stereognosia) are not the same phenomenon. The two processes are kind of continuous but somewhat far apart. Perception through sense-door-process and mind-door-process do not occur at the same time. Best wishes, Num Deana: There is a PTS Pali-Eng dict. online through U. of Chic. website. I will post the URL of the site later, I keep the bookmark in my comp. at work. 12798 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep Hi Jon. I'm afraid I'm lurking more than I'd like, but I was happy to pop in and find your response to my earlier post. I enjoyed your explanation, and even if I don't totally accord for it, I understand it a lot more than I used to, and it's definitely an intriguing and worthy argument. Some day when i do all my 'homework' [perhaps next lifetime] I'll be able to make a more intelligent assessment of everything.....oh well..... And of course, one should know better than to argue with a lawyer.... oh well, again..... In any case, for the moment, before I 'rush to sleep', I'd like to just single out your ending comment for response. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: ...according to the 'individual factors to be separately > practised' interpretation, any person who develops jhana or makes an > effort to have kusala or who believes in kamma/vipaka (that being one > of the descriptions of right view), would be developing factors of > the 'Noble Eightfold Path', regardless of whether they have never > heard the dhamma and even if they follow a teaching that declares the > existence of a self or soul or god. Surely this is not right? Jon, I don't see any reason why these cultivations of 'Right Concentration through the jhanas' or any other cultivation of mundane path factors, could not be said, on the one hand, to be legitimate factors towards the cultivation of enlightenment, and on the other hand, not necessarily guaranteeing enlightenment by any means if they do not come together in the full flowering of the 'eightfold combination' that is necessary to achieve complete realization. In other words, such piecemeal efforts, without the hub of the Suttas that hold them together in one unified effort, are necessary but not sufficient. Is it possible perhaps that one could achieve full realization without hearing the teachings by coming upon all of these factors and somehow putting them all together, but in practical terms it is probably impossible. So the result is that the Dhamma is a necessary factor because it makes the various cultivations make sense and organizes the intention to achieve these very difficult factors. That is enough to satisfy me that even in the Right Concentration = jhanas interpretation, the practitioner would need more than just achievement of the jhanas to reach enlightenment. he would also need vipassana, and understanding the nature of reality is one of the requisite elements of true insight. So it comes back around to the Buddhist requirements for realization, even in my model. I also think it is possible that one can see the jhanas as a most important factor in Right Concentration and one that is an essential element of the Buddha's teaching, which it surely is, without ruling out the possibility of there being other routes to Right Concentration and Right Understanding. I would think logically that someone who achieved the level of mindfulness necessary to really take in the reality of each moment as it actually occurs through 'dry insight' would be in an eyes-open, waking jhana at that point. I don't see any reason why the jhanas cannot be malleable enough to occur in different methods of cultivation, as long as the methodology and the goal is sound. Again, it doesn't deny the more 'ordinary' definition of Right Concentration, just expands its possible conditions for cultivation. Whew, and that's just on that one point! That's enough for now. I'm putting myself to bed. Thanks for the clear and provocative thoughts. > Always enjoy our discussions, Rob. > > Jon Me too. Take care, Robert Ep. 12799 From: azita gill Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Num (Goglerr & Shakti), > > > The second noble truth gives craving for pleasant > feeling and craving > for bhava and vibhava as the cause of dukkha. This > bhava and vibhava is > actually a strategy to avoid dukkha by creating or > finding a self. [So > the desire to escape dukkha is a primary cause of > dukkha.] The end of > desire is the end of dukkha. The noble eight fold > way is the way to > desirelessness. > > If you know of any other textual or commentarial > discussions of this > subject, I would be interested. What do you think? > > Larry > > dear Larry > > thanks for all the good work you do here. I have bracketted a sentence above which I want to comment on. When we begin to study Dhamma, and begin to understand how precious this human rebirth is, how deep-rooted our defilements are, I think an urgency is created, and we think we better "do something - now" and the desire to get out of samsara can be very strong; now I think this is where maybe many of us are at - well, really I can only speak for myself - but "we" can't make anything happen, however by studying and by getting to know what this present moment really consists of, surely the wisdom to know must grow just like my little seedlings in the garden, tiny bit by tiny bit, if I water them, perhps the water being like the study we do, little by little. > Anumodana Larry a Azita