14400 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Hi Frank and Kom, I wonder how these terms relate to a neither pleasant nor painful feeling. Does that kind of feeling have a different origin, satisfaction, and peril? 'Escape' seems a little odd in this case as well. Any comments? Larry "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." 14401 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'pretty much given up' ????? Hi Sarah, I guess I should have said *I* have given up on understanding memory; or perhaps, this group that is *me* has given up, instead of *you guys* have given up on understanding memory as something other or more than sanna. I guess my point was that I didn't think memories and accumulations (ayuhana) was the same thing. My further point was that everyone (*you guys*) seems to be locked-in to sanna as the alpha and omega of memory. There's got to be more to it than "sanna marks for memory." But whatever more there is isn't in abhidhamma; so all we can do is speculate, and in the end that's pretty unsatisfactory. So I gave up. But 'giving up' being an event in a continuous flow of events, it later occured to me that recognizing and remembering are probably distinct, complex processes. Furthermore, we all probably have perfect memories but there is considerable variability in our ability to remember. This no doubt is due to hindrances to clear seeing. Would there, by any chance, be a list of such hindrances? Larry 14402 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) --- <> wrote: > Hi Frank and Kom, I wonder how these terms relate to > a neither pleasant > nor painful feeling. Does that kind of feeling have > a different origin, > satisfaction, and peril? 'Escape' seems a little odd > in this case as > well. Any comments? > There's worldly neutral feeling and unworldly neutral feeling (higher jhana only has pure equanimity, no physical pleasant feeling). The unworldly neutral feeling is dangerous and satisfying in the same way a pleasant worldly feeling is. Easy to cling to due to its pleasantness. -fk 14403 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Nina, this interface between the sense door and the mind door (bhavanga citta) is what interests me. I had the idea that the sense door sent a representative of the rupa to the mind door where it was 'looked at' by 17 cittas in a row then dissoved. Your point that a rupa doesn't physically barge into the mind door and interrupt the bhavanga is well taken. I hadn't considered that the interruption is an internal matter between cittas. I'm still having trouble visualizing or imagining how citta cognizes rupa. While I have your eye, I wanted to ask you how long the objects in mind-door process last. For example, are there 7 different objects during the javana series? thanks for your help, Larry 14404 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Howard, you asked: "How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the object of a citta?" I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas. I would also acknowledge that a phenomenalist perspective has proven throughout the centuries to be an effective liberative technique. best wishes, Larry 14405 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) H Frank, I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a worldly neutral feeling is satisfying or dangerous. I guess I'm ignorant. Duh, who woulda thunk it? best wishes, Larry 14406 From: search Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts Ruth wrote: > What is a sensei? "sensei" means "master". It is used when speaking of spiritual leaders. It is also used in martial arts, for "teachers" who have reached a high level. It is used as a title or as a sign of respect... or both. Best regards. Jean-François 14407 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "practice"/"practical"/"application" in Nya's Abhidhamma Studies.. Hi Jaran (& Christine), --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi all: > I am enjoying my souvenir from Sri Lanka: Many books form PBS. ... and I > have a quick question: ..... Glad to hear the books are being put to good use and to see you sharing them here;-) Yes, Chris, he also left Colombo airport loaded up with B.Bodhi’s translations and other books like this one.... ..... > I am reading this "Abhidhamma Studies" Preface and Chapter one. I think > it's a good book. Both Bhikhu Bodhi and Ven. Nyanaponika Thera clearly > differentiate Samatha and Vipassana meditation. One question I have is > the words like "practice","practical" and "application" (in Concluding > Remarks pp 16-17), do they belong there? > > In my opinion, they do if the word 'practice' and practical' mean > observe or being aware of dhamma in daily life, and 'application' means > make dhamma relevant to daily life. But I am not sure in what context he > means. > > What do you all think? ..... Wow, I think Chris is a marvel of efficiency;-).....hope to get some tips... Jaran, I think that in this context as I understand it, he’s merely discussing the value of abhidhamma studies, provided it does not become a ‘rigid system of lifeless concepts’. In other words, he’s not attempting to discuss what ‘practice’ or ‘application’ is here (or he could have used Pali terms like vipassana, bhavana, patipada, patipatti and so on). He’s merely cautioning that theoretical and intellectual study are not the same as direct understanding and practice. I particularly like the following quoted paragraph which is similar to one or two themes we’ve been discussing recently on DSG: ***** > The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed > to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of such > conceptual labels. This would make of Abhidhamma study - though, of > course, not of the Abhidhamma itself - just one more among the many > intellectual "playthings" that serve as an escape from facing > reality, or as a "respectable excuse" with which to evade the hard > inner work needed for liberation. A merely abstract and conceptual > approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual > pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge. ***** As for the question of how ‘practice’ should be understood and the role of abhidhamma in practice, these are good areas for consideration and I hope you will say more and add the Pali terms (now you have access to Pali, Thai and English Tipitaka;-)) and encourage others to discuss further while I’m away. Sarah ===== 14408 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Frank (Nina & All), --- frank kuan wrote: > > My reason for practicing astanga is for the benefits > it brings to physical health (from a holistic > perspective, not just western notion of physical > health) health to complement the mental culture path > from Buddhism. ..... I followed your discussions with interest and find it easy to ‘relate’ to these comments and to‘Frankfood’. I’ve been looking out some references for your consideration, which I’ll add without comments under a few headings. As usual,I was pulling out texts looking for one in particular which I could ‘visualize’ on a page but couldn’t find . It was stressing the importance of the state of mind and giving up of attachment when one eats less. It was very relevant for me because when I eat less, more healthily or do more yoga or other exercise, it’s almost entirely prompted by attachment rather than by ‘giving up of attachment’;-) Anyway, hope you like these ones: ***** 1.Heat born of Kamma --------------------------- “For when there is no substance such as boiled rice in the stomach, that heat arises and seizes the stomach-walls and causes the being to cry out thus, “I am hungry; give me food.” When he has eaten, the heat releases the stomach-walls and seizes the substance. Then the person is quieted in mind. For as a hungry demon seizes him who enters the shade of the tree, binds him with spirit-chains and rejoicing in his own abode, comes when hungry and bites him on the head, so that the person cies out til....” Atthasalini, Derived material Qualities, p431 (PTS) ***** 2. Meal Intoxication ----------------------- “bhattasammada (meal intoxication), bhuttaavissa (in one who has eaten)=bhuttavato. Bhattamucchaa (giddiness due to food) is sickness due to food; for through much one comes to giddiness. Bhattakilamatho (distress due to food) is a distressed state due to food. Bhattapari.laaho (fever due to food) is discomfort due to food; for at that time the body hurts since its faculties are oppressed and it comes to a state of fever. Kaayadu.t.tulla.m (bodily inertia) is bodily unwieldiness due to food. Sammohavinodani2, class. of the Minor Bases, p235 (Masefield trans) ***** 3. Moderation -------------- “When a man is always mindful, Knowing moderation in the food he eats, His ailments then diminish: He ages slowly, guarding his life.” SN, Sagathavagga, A Bucket measure of Food, p.176 (BB trans) ***** “And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu moderate in eating? Here, reflecting wisely, a bhikkhu takes food neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness, but only for support and maintenance of this body, for ending discomfort, and for assisting the holy life, considering: “Thus I shall terminate the old feeling and not arouse a new feeling, and I shall be healthy and blameless and live in comfort.” Just as a person anoints a wound only for the purpose of enabling it to heal......” SN, Salayatanavagga, Simile of the Chariot, p.1240 (Also see Vism,1<89f> for more detail) ***** 4.For assisting the life of Purity ------------------------------------ “..for the purpose of assisting the life of purity consisting in the whole dispensation and the life of purity consisting in the path. For while this (bhikkhu) is engaged in crossing the desert of existence by means of devotion to the three trainings depending on bodily strength whose necessary condition is the use of alms food, he makes use of it to asist the life of purity .....just as those seeking to cross a river use a raft...” Vism, 1 <92> ***** “Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the tranquillity (passaddhi) enlightenment factor: (1) use of good food, (2) use of good weather, (3)use of a pleasant posture, (4) keeping to the middle, (5) avoidance of persons who are physically violent, (6) cultivation of persons who are bodily tranquil, (7) being resloved thereon. (1) Tranquillity arises in one who eats mild, suitable food...........But this is not said with reference to one who, with a nature like that of a Great Man, can bear all kinds of weather and postures; but to one for whom some kinds of weather and postures are contrary, it arises when he avoids the contrary kinds of weather and postures and uses favourable ones.” Sammohavinodani, Classif. of the Foundations of Mindfulness, p347 (PTS) ***** 5 Different Needs --------------------- “Food: Sweet food suits one, sour food another. Climate: a cool climate suits one, a warm one another. So when he finds that by using certain food or by living in a certain climate he is comfortable, or his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, or his concentrated mind becomes more so, then that food or that climate is suitable. Any other food or climate is unsuitable. Postures: walking suits one; standing or sitting or lying down suits another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and then that posture is suitable.....” Vism 1V<40> ***** “Sammi~njite pasaarite (“In bending and stretching”): in the bending and stretching of the limbs. Herein “clear comprehension of benefit” is the choosing of the beneficial, by choosing between the beneficial and the non-beneficial, that would be caused by the bending or stretching of the hand or foot, and without doing the bending or stretching as the immediate consequence of the thought itself. Herein, in one who remains too long with hand or foot bent only or stretched only, feelings arise from moment to moment. he does not get one-pointedness of mind.....” Sammohavinodani2, Class. of the Jhanas,p84 (Masefield) ***** “But among crude and refined, sour and sweet, etc, the food which produces discomfort in one is unsuitable. But that which is received by hinting, etc and that which increases unprofitable states and decreases profitable states is quite unsuitable. The opposite kind is suitable. ‘Clear comprehension of suitability’ should be understood here as that.” Sammohavinodani 2, Class. of the Jhanas, p87 ***** 6.Contentedness ------------------- “Take the case, moreover, of the monk who acquires almsfood, be it coarse or choice. With this alone he sustains himself; he does not wish for any other, nor does he, even when acquiring same, make use of such. This is, with respect to almsfood, his contentedness as accords with its acquisition. On the other hand, if he has some affliction, he ends up, upon consuming almsfood that is either coarse, disagreeable by nature or disagreeable to one with disease, with some intense impediment in the form of ill-health;.......Thus, with respect to almsfood, his contentedness as accords with one’s strength....” Udana commentary,Meghiya chapter, p586 (Masefield trans) .......... “The ascetic Akitti searched for Kara leaves that were sufficient for only one meal a day, because he found that searching for food for two meals would not lead to the eradication of defilements. This is the perfection of patience, because his life was not involved with the urge to eat.” The Perfections by A.Sujin, ‘Morality’ ***** 7.Pride ------- “Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth........pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection;......” Vibhanga, Analysis of Small Items, p452 (PTS) ***** “And as regards vanity of health (aarogyamada) and so on, the conceit that arises as intoxication thus: “I am healthy; the rest are unhealthy; ‘there is no sickness in me even for as long as it takes to milk a cow’ is called “vanity of health”. The conceit that arises as intoxication thus: “I am young; the person of other beings is like a tree growing on a cliff. But I am in the first stage (of life)’ is called “vanity of youth” (yobbanamada).........The conceit that arises as intoxication thus: ‘the bodies of the rest of beings are unshapely, misshapen, but mine is agreeable and pleasing’ is called “vanity of shape” (sa.n.thaanamada). The conceit that arises as intoxication thus: ‘The bodies of the rest of beings have many faults, but in my body there is not even the tip of a hair to be criticised’ is called “vanity of perfection” (paaripuurimada). Sammohavinodani2, Class. of Minor Bases, p223 (Masefield) ***** I hope there’s something here for everyone to consider....Of course, with regard to the last quote on conceit, when we consider ourselves less healthy, less youthful or less shapely/perfect than others, there's also mana (conceit) too;-) Sarah ===== 14409 From: goglerr Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Larry, Your post attracted my eyes. Kindly let me barge in. U said "I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas." I would to remind us that the Buddha is only a teacher, a guide, an instructor or the one who show us the way. He is not the one walk the path for us, not the one who liberate us but we, ourselves have to follow the instructions, with humbleness and wisdom, which has been laid down by Him and the great elders of the past, for our own liberation. We have to realize the dhamma for ourselves as the Buddha (s) has realized for himself. Inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason are only one level on wisdom, but if we only stop here and not follow through, we are just only gaining some scholarly knowledge. So if we are wise, then we have to follow through, i.e. to know the dhamma for ourselves. Yes, we CAN directly know or experience them as the Buddha experienced them too. We can experience the different nature of mind and and body or rather the 5 aggregates. Then this becomes another level of wisdom, penatrative wisdom. As we experience them, we will come to know that they actually tally or go parallel with our scholarly Dhamma knowledge. And we still follow through, to know the nature of mind and body as constantly arising and passing away. And this too is another level of penatrative wisdom. And we carry on to follow through, deepening our wisdom, perceiving the anicca, dukkha and anatta through the arising and passing away of the nature of mind and body, until the arising of the ultimate wisdom, the total cessation of the mind and body. The question now is, how to develop these penatrative wisdom? I leave this to you, cos I think you know the `how'. G --- Larry wrote: > Hi Howard, you asked: > "How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the > object of a citta?" > > I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses > inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. > Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I > guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas. > > I would also acknowledge that a phenomenalist perspective has proven > throughout the centuries to be an effective liberative technique. > > best wishes, Larry 14410 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > H Frank, I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a > worldly neutral > feeling is satisfying or dangerous. I guess I'm > ignorant. Duh, who > woulda thunk it? There's great Ajahn Chah story, goes something like this. One of the students asks him, "I can detect when aversion (the reaction to unpleasant feeling) arises, and I can detect when craving, (as the reaction to pleasant feeling) arises, but how do I detect delusion (the underlying root of neutral feeling)?" Ajahn Chah laughed out loud and said, "You are riding on the horse (of delusion) all the time and you're still looking for the horse!" ------------------------------- Another way to look at the 3 types of feelings: Delusion/avija/primordial ignorance is actually the underlying root of all 3 types of feelings. Craving and aversion are more immediate "causes" that are further down the chain, and because their disadvantages are more easily seen they are the focus of more discussion, but ignorance (of 4NT) is the root cause. Ignorance is not just a problem when craving and hatred arise. Ignorance (for the nonarhat)is a problem all the time, even when neutral feeling is predominant. -fk 14411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] expanded version of Abh ? Dear Rob M, It is better to keep the book as it is. Different groups use it for discussion. Of course, questions will always come up, they are endless. However, I would like people to use my last edition which has additions and footnotes: that is of 1997. This is on Zolag web. In letters I have written on various Dhamma topics. These can be found on: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.dhammastudy.com/ http://www.buddhadhamma.com/> Best wishes, from Nina. op 16-07-2002 19:16 schreef robmoult op <>: Have you considered releasing an expanded version of > ADL, to include some of the issues & misunderstandings raised in > this group? 14412 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a > > worldly neutral > > feeling is satisfying or dangerous. To me, it makes more sense to apply the 5 aspects (origin, dissipation, gratification, danger, escape) to feeling as a class rather than applying it to each nuance of feeling. Otherwise, you get illogical weird artifacts like you point out above. Another one: how can unpleasant feeling be satisfying? -fk 14413 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Sarah, Among the excerpts you listed, I did not see my favorite one. The one about the 2 parents and their only beloved child crossing the desert in a famine. I'll refrain from mentioning details, as I know some of us on dsg are kind of squeamish. But that simile is awesome in putting into perspective what role eating should constitute in our lives. -fk 14414 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] expanded version of Abh ? Hi Nina, Understood. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu, Rob M :-) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > It is better to keep the book as it is. Different groups use it for > discussion. Of course, questions will always come up, they are endless. > However, I would like people to use my last edition which has additions and > footnotes: that is of 1997. This is on Zolag web. > In letters I have written on various Dhamma topics. These can be found on: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > http://www.buddhadhamma.com/> > > Best wishes, from Nina. > 14415 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:04am Subject: Dear O, (Num and Kom), I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! Please go to http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst and click on photos 38 and 39. Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San Francisco. Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can collect more pictures! :):)) metta, Christine 14416 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] (unknown) Dear Chris (and K. O) If my picture keeps showing up like this, pretty soon, I will need one of those scarfs. Hmm... Maybe I can just run for the exit whenever I see a camera. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > > > Dear O, (Num and Kom), > > I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! > Please go to > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > and click on photos 38 and 39. > Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - > so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and > you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is > of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San > Francisco. > > Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing > through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can > collect more pictures! :):)) > 14417 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) > > > Hi Frank and Kom, I wonder how these terms relate to a neither pleasant > nor painful feeling. Does that kind of feeling have a different origin, > satisfaction, and peril? 'Escape' seems a little odd in this case as > well. Any comments? > > Larry > > "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he > does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction > nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a > tendency to ignorance is latent in him..." > I think the common origins (from dependent origination perspective) of all nama are ignorance and attachment. This includes the neutral feeling. The causes (from the conditionality perspectives) for neutral feelings are many. Frank has already given an example: the neutral feeling experienced at the 5th rupa jhana and above are much more refined than what we experience in the daily life. This is because the conditions of that jhanic netural feeling are different from those of everyday life's. The neutral feelings that appear on the 5 doors (excluding the body, where it must be bodily pleasant or bodily unpleasant) are also different: they all have different causes. The satisfaction is all the same everywhere: it's the attachment to whatever appears to the mind. The perils are also common. By way of the common characteristics: impermanence, dukkha, and anatta. By way of the dependent origination, with ignorance (and sometimes attachment) of the reality, the 5 kandhas are conditioned to arise, and we are stuck in the samsara... The escape ultimately always means nibbana, since it is where all conditioned realities cease. kom 14418 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:35am Subject: Re: pictures of O, Kom and Num was (unknown) Dear Kom, I know the feeling! However ..... we have our devious ways. There would simply be an extra note (with link), saying 'To find the answer to the question "Who is that masked man?", simply go to photo 39'. :)But at least you men don't suffer from the 'flat hair' and 'no make- up' syndrome. (Good morning Sukin and Sumane) :) metta, Chris --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Chris (and K. O) > > If my picture keeps showing up like this, pretty soon, I will need one of > those scarfs. Hmm... Maybe I can just run for the exit whenever I see a > camera. > > kom > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:04 PM > > Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > > > > > > Dear O, (Num and Kom), > > > > I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! > > Please go to > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > and click on photos 38 and 39. > > Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - > > so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and > > you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is > > of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San > > Francisco. > > > > Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing > > through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can > > collect more pictures! :):)) > > 14419 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi again, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/17/02 6:25:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > It seems to me that one can *only* say that hardness occurs as the objective > > pole of a citta-aramanna event. > ========================== One more point with regard to this (to "underline it"): In one formulation of dependent arising, the Buddha said that vi~n~nana is condition for the arising of namarupa, and namarupa is condition for the arising of vi~n~nana, like two sheaves supporting each other, so that should either fall, so does the other. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14420 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:58am Subject: ADL ch. 16 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 16 (4) The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. Different objects can be experienced through different doorways (in Pali : dvara). For example, the pasada-rupa in the eye (the rupa which has the capacity to receive visible object) is a necessary condition for citta to experience visible object. If there were not pasada-rupa in the eye, citta could not experience visible object. Cittas of the sense-door process know their objects through the doors of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue and the body-sense. As regards the door of the body-sense, the pasada-rupa which has the capacity to receive bodily impressions such as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure, is any part of the body which can receive such impressions. Thus, any part of the body can be body-door, except those parts which have no sensitivity. Five doors are rupa and one door is nama. The mind-door is nama. The cittas of the mind-door process experience an object through the mind-door. Before the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) arises there are the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga). The bhavangupaccheda, the citta preceding the mano-dvaravajjana-citta, is the mind-door. It is the 'doorway' through which mano-dvaravajjana-citta experiences its object. It is useful to know through which door cittas experience different objects. For example, visible object which is ruparammana can be experienced both through the eye-door and through the mind-door. It is experienced through the eye-door when it has not fallen away yet. When it is experienced by the cittas of the mind-door process following upon that eye-door process, it has just fallen away. When visible object is experienced through the mind-door the cittas only know visible object, they do not think of a person or a thing. But time and again there are also mind-door processes of cittas which think of people or things and then the object is a concept, not visible object. The experience of visible object conditions the thinking of concepts which arises later on. In both the sense-door process and the mind-door process, javana-cittas arise ; these javana-cittas are, if one is not an arahat, either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When visible object is experienced through the eye-door, one does not yet perceive a person or a thing, but, already in the sense-door process, attachment to what is seen can arise, or aversion towards it, or ignorance. Defilements are deeply rooted, they can arise through all six doors. We may think that the enslavement to the objects which are experienced through the sense-doors is caused by the objects. Defilements, however, are not caused by objects, they are accumulated in the citta which experiences the object. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch. III, par. 191, Kotthika) that Sariputta and Maha-Kotthika were staying near Varanasi at Isipatana, in the Antelope Park. Kotthika said to Sariputta : 'How now, friend? Is the eye the bond of objects, or are objects the bond of the eye? Is the tongue the bond of savours, or are savours the bond of the tongue? Is mind the bond of mind-objects, or are mind-objects the bond of the mind?' 'Not so, friend Kotthika. The eye is not the bond of objects, nor are objects the bond of the eye, but that desire and lust that arise owing to these two. That is the bond. And so with the tongue and mind...it is the desire and lust that arise owing to savours and tongue, mind-objects and mind. Suppose, friend, two oxen, one white and one black, tied by one rope or one yoke-tie. Would one be right in saying that the black ox is the bond for the white one, or that the white ox is the bond for the black one?' 'Surely not. Friend.' 'That is right, friend. It is not so. But the rope or the yoke-tie which binds the two, - - that is the bond that unites them. So it is with the eye and objects, with tongue and savours, with mind and mind-objects. It is the desire and lust which are in them that form the bond that unites them. If the eye, friend, were the bond of objects, or if objects were the bond of the eye, then this righteous life for the utter destruction of dukkha, could not be proclaimed. But since it is not so, but the desire and lust which are in them is the bond, therefore is the righteous life for the utter destruction of dukkha proclaimed... There is in the Exalted One an eye, friend. The Exalted One sees an object with the eye. But in the Exalted One is no desire and lust. Wholly heart-free is the Exalted One. There is in the Exalted One a tongue...a mind. But in the Exalted One is no desire and lust. Wholly heart-free is the Exalted One. By this method, friend, you are to understand, as I said before, that the bond is the desire and lust which are in things. Questions 1. Through which doors can motion be experienced? 2. Through which door can body-sense be experienced? 3. What class of arammana (object) is cohesion? 4. What class of arammana is lobha-mula-citta (citta rooted in attachment? 5. Through which door can lobha-mula-citta be experienced? 6. Through which doors can lobha-mula-citta experience an object? 7. What class of arammana is cold? 8. What class of arammana is bodily painful feeling? 9. What class of arammana is mental unpleasant feeling? 10. What class of arammana is panna (wisdom)? 11. Is the word 'peace' an arammana? If so, what class? 12. How many doors are rupa and how many are nama? 13. Can visible object be experienced through the mind-door? 14. Is visible object dhammarammana? 15. How many ahetuka cittas have ruparammana (visible object) as object? 16. How many ahetuka cittas have dhammarammana as object? 17. Through how many doors does citta know ruparammana? 18. Through how many doors does citta know dhammarammana? 19. How many classes of arammana are known through the mind-door? 14421 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2) Frank and Kom, thanks for the clarifications. If I understand you correctly, neutral feeling should be regarded as feeling in general and attachment to pleasant feeling and aversion to unpleasant feeling are defeated by the same reasoning which defeats ignorance. I include the whole passage below to refresh everyone's memory. Larry -------------- The Buddha then explained about the person who has attachments, aversion or ignorance with regard to what he experiences through the six doors. We read : 'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and visible object, the meeting of the three is contact; an experience arises conditioned by contact that is pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant. He, being impinged on by a pleasant feeling, delights, rejoices and persists in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast and falls into disillusion; a tendency to repugnance is latent in him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him...' The same is said with regard to the other doorways. The person who has 'wise attention' instead of attachment, aversion or ignorance can make an end to the cycle of birth and death. Further on we read : '... He, being impinged on by pleasant feeling, does not delight, rejoice or persist in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he does not grieve, mourn, lament, beat his breast or fall into disillusion ; a tendency to repugnance is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he comprehends the origin and the going down and the satisfaction and the peril of that feeling and the escape as it really is, a tendency to ignorance is not latent in him. That he, monks, by getting rid of any tendency to attachment to a pleasant feeling, by driving out any tendency to repugnance for a painful feeling, by rooting out any tendency to ignorance concerning a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, by getting rid of ignorance, by making knowledge arise, should here and now be an end-maker of dukkha--this situation exists. 14422 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Goggler, thank you for your wise words but I had to laugh at this: "The question now is, how to develop these penatrative wisdom? I leave this to you, cos I think you know the `how´." The only 'how' I know is to jump in, but most of the time I miss the river all together. best wishes, Larry 14423 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Larry & Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M > > > Hi Howard, you asked: > "How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the > object of a citta?" > > I don't know how a Buddha knows things, but everyone else uses > inference, deduction, logic and other processes associated with reason. > Without it, we couldn't even formulate the idea of phenomenalism. But I > guess what we really want to know is how does a Buddha know dhammas. > > I would also acknowledge that a phenomenalist perspective has proven > throughout the centuries to be an effective liberative technique. > > best wishes, Larry I personally am in the camp of "other objects, even when the don't appear, exist". I of course, cannot prove this absolutely (at the paramatha level), but the model of realities given by the abhidhamma allows convincing (to me) deductions. Before I go into the brief discussion of deductions, let me say that whether or not the other objects that don't appear exist or not is a moot dicussion. We can only study objects that appear, and not objects that don't appear. Therefore, the following discussions don't help anyone in reaching nibbana. 1) A citta can experience nama or rupa, one at a time. We know that for the nama at the 5-door to exist, it must experience the rupa. They both must co-exist even though perhaps only one is experienced. 2) Hardness doesn't appear out of nowhere, it must be conditioned to arise. The abhidhamma's model gives an explanation that, for a non-living object, the rupa arises from a previous rupa (Utu [or dejo, or fire dhatu]). If you experience hardness of a non-living object now, it can be deduced (from the explanation) that the conditions causing the hardness to arise is the fire dhatu of another group of rupa (not experienced). If one believes that rupa only exists while it is being experienced, then you must also believe that all rupas are conditioned to arise ry the cognition (of the mind) itself. This would seem to contradict my everyday (non-paramatha) observation of how the world works. kom 14424 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi Kom, this discusson reminds me of a way of discriminating between nama and rupa. That is, by discriminating between internal and external. Internal is nama and external is rupa. The key point is that there are no nama qualities in the rupa, although we do often forget that. Thinking that beautiful and ugly or even healthy and unhealthy are qualities of rupa. Basically this body is merely a nimble corpse; it doesn't touch or feel anything. Nama experiences touch and feeling. I would be interested to see how you and Howard understand this distinction. Larry ------------------ Kom wrote: I personally am in the camp of "other objects, even when the don't appear, exist". I of course, cannot prove this absolutely (at the paramatha level), but the model of realities given by the abhidhamma allows convincing (to me) deductions. Before I go into the brief discussion of deductions, let me say that whether or not the other objects that don't appear exist or not is a moot dicussion. We can only study objects that appear, and not objects that don't appear. Therefore, the following discussions don't help anyone in reaching nibbana. 1) A citta can experience nama or rupa, one at a time. We know that for the nama at the 5-door to exist, it must experience the rupa. They both must co-exist even though perhaps only one is experienced. 2) Hardness doesn't appear out of nowhere, it must be conditioned to arise. The abhidhamma's model gives an explanation that, for a non-living object, the rupa arises from a previous rupa (Utu [or dejo, or fire dhatu]). If you experience hardness of a non-living object now, it can be deduced (from the explanation) that the conditions causing the hardness to arise is the fire dhatu of another group of rupa (not experienced). If one believes that rupa only exists while it is being experienced, then you must also believe that all rupas are conditioned to arise by the cognition (of the mind) itself. This would seem to contradict my everyday (non-paramatha) observation of how the world works. kom 14425 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:12pm Subject: Assaji's Beautiful Brief Restatement Dear Dhamma Friends Sergei asked the following. "Does anyone know of a story that runs like this: The master is teaching in a grove of trees somewhere. A visitor approaches and asks, "What does this master teach?" and the reply from someone departing is "He teaches that everything that happens is caused. I saw this in a book one time and then couldn't find it again. Could anyone cite a sutra or some Buddhist commentary that contains this?" Sergei's question has reminded me of Assaji's beautiful brief restatement of the essence of the Buddha's teachings. Therefore, I wrote the following reply to him. I hope you also find it useful! Suan ------------------------------------------------------ Dear Sergei90245 How are you? I am not sure about your story. However, there is an episode of how Saariputta became the disciple of the Buddha after having met with Assaji, one of the First Five Disciples of the Buddha, and having listened to Assaji's brief restatement. The brief restatement, which is very beautiful, is as follows. "Ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa, tesam hetum tathaagato aaha; tesañca yo nirodho, evamvaadii mahaasama.no"ti. "The Buddha Tathaagato told us the cause of those phenomena which have causes as their beginnings, and the cessation of those phenomena as well. The Great Ascetic is such a teacher." The above episode and that beautiful brief restatement can be found in Section 60, Mahaakhandhako, Mahaavaggo, Vinaya Pi.taka. (Roman Edition, Volume One, page. 39) "Tesañca yo nirodhoti tesam ubhinnampi saccaanam yo appavattinirodho; tañca tathaagato aahaati attho." "Tesañca yo nirodho" means that the Buddha Tathaagato also taught the cessation, the no-longer-arising, of both those truths, namely the Noble Truth of Misery and the Noble Truth of Attachment (i.e, both phenomena and their causes)." The above quote comes from the commentary on Mahaavaggo, Vinaya Pi.tako. I hope that the above information satisfied your curiosity somewhat before someone else could locate the exact story you are after. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class Dear Rob M, Excellent that you want the Abh study relevant for daily life. 75 minutes is long, is there a tea break? It would help if the 75 minutes are spent by way of question and answer related to the subject. I hope you can meet A. Sujin one day, you are in the region. Now you have quite a list, and it may be good if you remind us all of the next topic, one at a time. Because it is really useful and interesting to see what different people write and what points they stress in accordance with their accumulations. So, the next one is adosa: khanti and metta. Nothing is really easy I find, especially when it comes to the practice. You may like the Roots of Good and Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 251-253. Also under useful posts you may find the subjects of metta and patience. Or A. Sujin's book which I translated: Metta, Loving kindness in Buddhism, which is on line: Zolag. She gives guidance on the development of metta and points out the impediments. I shall select some of her points, but I do hope others in this forum will help also, especially handing out examples from daily life. That is what you want, you have plenty of books already. You could also try my "Perfections leading to Enlightenment", on Abh. Org. web. It could give you ideas about metta, upekkha, etc. It is difficult to treat a subject in isolation, everything is connected with everything. When you speak about metta, TMt is also hard at work. When you speak about the abstinences you have to speak about metta, which is very necessary for abstention from evil. It is all most intricate. What is sangdikha dana? Is the class in China? You have to travel a lot. Best wishes, Nina. op 17-07-2002 22:35 schreef robmoult op <>: > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help > from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked > up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am > looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- > academic group of parents. > > The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: > Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) > Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs > Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) > Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation > Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci-duccarita > Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) > Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) > > Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but > I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three > abstinences more interesting. 14427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Howard, Sarah and I wrote about rupas before, and I know that what I have written does not always agree with your phenomenolgical outlook on life. A few days ago you called out, this is phenomenology, when reading a part of my Abh on objects and doors. I was surprised. What in particular was in agreement with your outlook? I do not know quite how to answer your questions. Hardness does not exist on its own, it is part of a group of rupas, kalapa, which arise and fall away. Some more about the table out there: what we call a table are in fact lots of groups of rupas arising and falling away, conditioned by heat. In each group of rupas out there there are: the four Great elements of earth, water, fire, wind. Earth is the foundation of the other rupas, water or cohesion holds them together. There are also the four derived rupas of colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Only one of these rupas can be experienced at a time. If you lick at what we call a table flavour may appear: when flavour is the object of citta, all the accompanying rupas are there together with flavour in a group, but they are not experienced. For Howard, there is nothing in the world at that moment, except flavour and that is right. But there is no Howard who experiences, tasting experiences the flavour. When you smell what we call a table, odour appears, the other rupas are there together with odour, but they do not appear. As regards nutrition, there may not be Howard food, but insects may like to eat it. Thus there are many rupas but not all of them can be experienced at the same time. The Visuddhimagga classifies rupas as internal and external, as far and near. I quote part of my Rupas, with the risk that you do not like it :-) : Thus, there are rupas which are not suitable for comprehension. Anyway, you do not have to occupy yourself with those. We can start with what can be directly experienced. But there is more under the sun. Best wishes from Nina. op 18-07-2002 00:24 schreef Howard op Howard: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > When hardness is not the object of a citta, *where* does it abide? It > is a rupa, but not always an aramanna. So what is its existential status when > not an object? Where is it? In the land of Plato's ideals??? ;-)) > My not so subtle point is that I do not buy the idea of rupas existing > independently of vi~n~nana. One cannot say, for example, that hardness exists > as a characteristic of some "thing out there" like a table, or a floor, or a > tree, because these are just concepts. And one also cannot say that hardness > exists in some disembodied fashion all on its own, in some Platonic heaven. > It seems to me that one can *only* say that hardness occurs as the objective > pole of a citta-aramanna event. > ============================= 14428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) objects in the mind-door process. Dear Larry, When the mind-door process follows upon a sense-door process, say, eye-door process, the visible object has only just fallen away when it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process. Rupa does not last longer than 17 moments of cittas, thus, it has fallen away when the succeeding mind-door process begins. Someone asked A. Sujin whether visible object experienced through the mind-door is the same as visible object experienced through the eye-door, and she said, exactly the same. Just because of the speed of the cittas that succeed one another. All javana cittas in one process experience the same object. When the object of the cittas in the mind-door process is a nama, that object has fallen away but it can still be experienced. I hope this clarifies somewhat, Nina. op 18-07-2002 04:40 schreef <> op <>: > While I have your eye, I wanted to ask you how long the objects in > mind-door process last. For example, are there 7 different objects > during the javana series? > > 14429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no 2: Perfections, Ch 3, no 2. Sakka thought that if Akitti would aspire to become Sakka he would fulfill the perfection of generosity, dåna, and give away his food. We read: When the ascetic Akitti noticed that the brahmin was in need of food, he took the sodden Kåra leaves and gave them all to the brahmin. He did the same the second day and the third day. Here we see that the kusala he performed at those times were actually the perfections of generosity, dåna, of morality, síla, of renunciation, nekkhamma, of patience, khanti, of energy, viriya, of determination or steadfastness, adiììhåna, and of truthfulness, sacca, that is, sincerity in the performing of kusala. He fulfilled the perfections in order to attain Buddhahood. All perfections are interrelated and they support one another. Akitti was steadfast in generosity, he did not hesitate because of avarice. He did not long for anything in life, not even for something very slight. This is the perfection of sincerity. We read: The ascetic Akitti was unshakable in generosity while he offered his sodden Kåra leaves for three consecutive days. He fulfilled the perfection of loving kindness, mettå, by his disposition to give assistance to all beings. He fulfilled the perfection of equanimity, upekkhå, by evenmindedness or neutrality, not being disturbed by contrariness in conduct of people or contrariness in phenomena. Sakka begged for food for three consecutive days, but the ascetic Akitti was unshakable in his determination to give, and he gave, no matter who was asking. We read: As regards the perfection of paññå, he knows which dhammas are beneficial conditions for the fulfillment of the perfections and which are not. He abandons the dhammas which are not beneficial and he directs his practice towards those which are beneficial. When Sakka knew the disposition of the ascetic Akitti, he offered a boon, whereupon the Great Being, the ascetic Akitti, explained the Dhamma with regard to the receiving of boons. Further on in the Commentary we read: Sakka noticed that the ascetic Akitti dwellt in contentedness. He asked him: ³What, great Brahmin, are you wishing for, that you are dwelling here all alone in the heat?² Sakka interrogated Akitti because he wanted to know about his sincerity in practising virtue to the highest degree, so that even Sakka called him great Brahmin. We read: Akitti answered, ³Sakka, King of the devas, rebirth is dukkha, the breaking up of the body is dukkha, and dying with delusion is dukkha. Therefore I dwell here all alone.² Sakka answered: ³Well spoken Kassapa 2) , you expressed this very well. I will give you a boon, choose whatever you wish.² One may have wonder what this means. Here the firm determination for the development of kusala is shown of the ascetic Akitti who wishes for a boon. The boon that he wishes for are all ten perfections. Footnote: 2. This may have been the name of his clan, the Kassapa clan. 14430 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Hi, Larry (and Kom) - In a message dated 7/18/02 9:54:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Kom, this discusson reminds me of a way of discriminating between > nama and rupa. That is, by discriminating between internal and external. > Internal is nama and external is rupa. The key point is that there are > no nama qualities in the rupa, although we do often forget that. > Thinking that beautiful and ugly or even healthy and unhealthy are > qualities of rupa. Basically this body is merely a nimble corpse; it > doesn't touch or feel anything. Nama experiences touch and feeling. > > I would be interested to see how you and Howard understand this > distinction. > > Larry > =========================== What you are asking for is the distinction between what appears at the mind door and at the other sense doors. I can no better express this in words than I can express in words the difference between visual objects and auditory objects. We know them when we see, hear, or "mentate" them! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14431 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard [mailto:Howard] > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:29 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M > > > > Hi Kom, this discusson reminds me of a way of discriminating between > > nama and rupa. That is, by discriminating between internal and external. > > Internal is nama and external is rupa. The key point is that there are > > no nama qualities in the rupa, although we do often forget that. > > Thinking that beautiful and ugly or even healthy and unhealthy are > > qualities of rupa. Basically this body is merely a nimble corpse; it > > doesn't touch or feel anything. Nama experiences touch and feeling. > > > > I would be interested to see how you and Howard understand this > > distinction. > > > > Larry > > I don't think I can summarize this better than you have already done! kom 14432 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/19/02 1:01:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Hi, Howard, > Sarah and I wrote about rupas before, and I know that what I have written > does not always agree with your phenomenolgical outlook on life. A few days > ago you called out, this is phenomenology, when reading a part of my Abh on > objects and doors. I was surprised. What in particular was in agreement > with > your outlook? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: For example, you wrote "When we touch the log of wood, hardness or cold, for example, can be experienced through the body-sense. We take the log of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we call 'log of wood' are many different rupas which arise and fall away." When and where do they arise and fall away? I presumed you meant that they arise with a citta-process and fall away with the termination of that process. But evidently I'm wrong in this presumption. So I still must ask how one knows about paramattha dhammas that are not cognized, and also ask where dhammas such as hardness, or warmth, or greenness abide when not cognized. The average person "knows" where a tree is - he/she will tell us that it is "out there" in the world, most particularly on their front lawn or in the back yard, and that hardness, roughness, leaf-shapes, greenness, and brownness are all just characteristics of that tree. But Abhidhamma tells us, I understand, that trees are mere concept, and all that is "real" are the hardness, roughness, leaf-shapes, greenness, and brownness. So, when these paramattha dhammas are not experienced, where are they, in what sense do they exist, and how are they known to exist? The fact that they co-occur tells us what? That they are interrelated? Or that the package comprised of them is not mere concept but also is "real". And even if that latter proposition were true, though it seems to contradict the Abhidhamma understanding of pa~n~natti, one would still be justified in asking where and in what manner such a package of dhammas, when they are not cognized, exists. As I see it, paramattha dhammas and relations among them are all that actually exist, their existence being fleeting and interdependent with the knowing of them, and conditioned by previous dhammas. When they are not cognized, they are mere possibilities/potentialities, possibilities which become actualities only when the necessary conditions for their arising have occurred. To be sure, there is a lawfulness to the arising of related dhammas, and to be sure, there is an intersubjectivity to experience - we are not in this realm alone, but these facts do not imply anything beyond the lawfulness of conditionality and certain commonalities of experience among sentient beings. -------------------------------------------------------------- > I do not know quite how to answer your questions. Hardness does not exist on > its own, it is part of a group of rupas, kalapa, which arise and fall away. > Some more about the table out there: what we call a table are in fact lots > of groups of rupas arising and falling away, conditioned by heat. In each > group of rupas out there there are: > the four Great elements of earth, water, fire, wind. Earth is the > foundation > of the other rupas, water or cohesion holds them together. There are also > the four derived rupas of colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. > Only one of these rupas can be experienced at a time. If you lick at what > we > call a table flavour may appear: when flavour is the object of citta, all > the accompanying rupas are there together with flavour in a group, but they > are not experienced. For Howard, there is nothing in the world at that > moment, except flavour and that is right. But there is no Howard who > experiences, tasting experiences the flavour. When you smell what we call a > table, odour appears, the other rupas are there together with odour, but > they do not appear. As regards nutrition, there may not be Howard food, but > insects may like to eat it. > Thus there are many rupas but not all of them can be experienced at the > same > time. > The Visuddhimagga classifies rupas as internal and external, as far and > near. I quote part of my Rupas, with the risk that you do not like it :-) > : > kinds > of rúpa are gross: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and the three > great > elements which are tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the > five > sense-organs. They are gross because of impinging; visible object impinges > on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the other > sense > objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Where are those visible objects, sounds, and other sense objects when not cognized? If we say they exist as characteristics of conventional objects such as trees and tables, then we are not talking Abhidhamma. What sort of visual image is unseen? What sort of sound is unheard? (Compaction and rarefaction of matter moving as a wave? That is mere concept!) ---------------------------------------------------------- The other sixteen kinds of> > rúpa are subtle. What is subtle is called ³far² because it is difficult to > penetrate, whereas what is gross is called ³near², because it is easy to > penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73). > Furthermore, other distinctions can be made. Rúpas can be classified as > sabhava rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature, and asabhava rúpas, > rúpas without their own distinct nature. The twelve gross rúpas and six > among the subtle rúpas that are: cohesion, nutrition, life faculty, > heart-base, femininity and masculinity are rupas each with their own > distinct nature and characteristic, they are sabhåva rúpas. > The other ten subtle rúpas do not have their own distinct nature, they are > asabhåva rúpas. Among these are the two kinds of intimation, bodily > intimation and speech intimation, which are a ³certain, unique change² in > the eight inseparable rúpas produced by citta. Moreover, the three > qualities > of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness that can be classified together > with > the two rúpas of intimation as vikåra rúpas (rúpa as changeability or > alteration). Furthermore, there is the rúpa space (akåsa or pariccheda > rúpa) > that delimits the groups of rúpa. Also included are the four rúpas that are > characteristics of rúpa, namely birth, continuity, decay and impermanence. > Rúpas can be classified as produced rúpas, nipphanna rúpas, and unproduced > rúpas, anipphanna rúpas. The sabhåva rúpas are also called ³produced², > whereas the asabhåva rúpas are also called ³unproduced²5. The ³produced > rúpas² which each have their own characteristic are, as the ³Visuddhimagga² > (XVIII, 13) explains, ³suitable for comprehension², that is, they are > objects of which right understanding can be developed. For example, visible > object or hardness have characteristics that can be objects of awareness > when they appear, and they can be realized by paññå as they are, as > non-self. The ³unproduced rúpas² are ³not suitable for comprehension² since > they are qualities of rúpa such as changeability or the rúpa that delimits > groups of rúpas. If one does not know this distinction one may be led to > wrong practice of insight; someone may imagine that he can be directly > aware > of ³unproduced rúpas², that are not concrete matter, such as lightness of > matter.> > > Thus, there are rupas which are not suitable for comprehension. Anyway, you > do not have to occupy yourself with those. We can start with what can be > directly experienced. But there is more under the sun. > Best wishes from Nina. > > ============================ Nina, I do not "insist" on my phenomenalist position. But I have a problem with seeing how an "objectivist" view (to use an Ayn Randian phrase) is compatible with the Dhamma, especially with Abhidhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14433 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M Dear Kom and Howard, I was trying to get you guys to debate one another, not debate me. The issue is how do you understand the difference between nama and rupa (this differentiation being a key 'first step' on the path of purification, I think?). Is the phenomenalist perspective saying all there is is experience? If so, wouldn't that necessitate that _both_ rupa and citta are equally ficticious, or at least equally conventional? I was thinking of this as a possible 'next step' after a more dualistic discrimination. Or are the two views incompatible? I'm not exactly crystal clear on phenomenology or the correct way to understand nama and rupa or the remainder of the path of purification. It's all a bit murky. Does this make sense? Larry 14434 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Jon, Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you have doubts about my approach. What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the Buddha's instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Hi Jon and all, > > Hmmm, this thread is not mine anyway. > > Questions: > 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and > how is that accomplished? > > Answers: > Unskillful qualities are to be understood as passion, aversion, and > delusion. They are also to be understood as sensual desire, ill- > will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and worry, and doubt. When > one withdraws from sensuality and unskillful qualities, one abandons > them. How is that accomplished? Please refer this discourse in > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn020.html > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Jon: > I think we are going around in circles here, Victor ;-)). You refer above > to the abandoning of the hindrances (I think), but in the texts this > normally implies jhana. This would mean that before sitting down to focus > on the breath (in order to develop Right Concentration), jhana would be > needed first. > > Is this how you see it? > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Question: > 2. What is the difference in the mental state between-- > a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and > b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and > whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing? > > For Question 2, Jon, I would suggest to: > Sit in a secluded place with leg crossed and eye closed. Withdraw > from sensuality and unskillful qualities. Focus on in and out > breathing. See for yourself, Jon. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Jon: > In asking this question, I had in mind that a mind that is focussed on the > breath could be either kusala or akusala. Since the purpose here is the > development of Right Concentration, which obviously arises only with > kusala citta, is it your view that mind with breath as object is more > likely to be kusala than mind without breath as object? I am not aware of > any basis for that in the texts. And anyway, how would a person know > whether the citta is kusala or akusala? > > Alternatively, if you are postulating a mind that is already kusala -- > since you refer to 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskilful qualities' (a > pretty big 'if', I believe) -- then what additional benefit do you see as > following from focussing the mind on breath? > > You suggest that rather than seek to understand the theory I should simply > try it and see for myself. I am not aware of the Buddha ever suggesting > or endorsing this approach. Indeed, he spent the whole of his life after > enlightenment explaining the why's and wherefore's to those who would > listen (many became enlightened while listening and considering as he > spoke). > > Quite apart from the doubts I have about your approach, the state of being > 'withdrawn from sensuality and unskilful qualities' doesn't sound like me, > so I don't think I even make it to first base ;-)) > > Joking aside though, Victor, it is useful to exchange views on these > important areas, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so with you. > > Jon > > > 14435 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) objects in the mind-door process. Thanks Nina, this is interesting and furthers understanding. best wishes, Larry ----------------- Nina wrote: Dear Larry, When the mind-door process follows upon a sense-door process, say, eye-door process, the visible object has only just fallen away when it is experienced by cittas of the mind-door process. Rupa does not last longer than 17 moments of cittas, thus, it has fallen away when the succeeding mind-door process begins. Someone asked A. Sujin whether visible object experienced through the mind-door is the same as visible object experienced through the eye-door, and she said, exactly the same. Just because of the speed of the cittas that succeed one another. All javana cittas in one process experience the same object. When the object of the cittas in the mind-door process is a nama, that object has fallen away but it can still be experienced. I hope this clarifies somewhat, Nina. 14436 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there --- Howard wrote: > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > For example, you wrote "When we touch the log of wood, hardness or > cold, for example, can be experienced through the body-sense. We take the log > of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we call 'log of wood' are many > different rupas which arise and fall away." > When and where do they arise and fall away? _--------------- Dear Howard, They arise and fall away immediately - it is happening so fast, whether one knows it or not. Even this whole universe , every tiny kalapa only last for the briefest instant. -------------- I presumed you meant that > they arise with a citta-process and fall away with the termination of that > process. But evidently I'm wrong in this presumption. > So I still must ask how one knows about paramattha dhammas that are > not cognized, and also ask where dhammas such as hardness, or warmth, or > greenness abide when not cognized. The average person "knows" where a tree is > - he/she will tell us that it is "out there" in the world, most particularly > on their front lawn or in the back yard, and that hardness, roughness, > leaf-shapes, greenness, and brownness are all just characteristics of that > tree. But Abhidhamma tells us, I understand, that trees are mere concept, and > all that is "real" are the hardness, roughness, leaf-shapes, greenness, and > brownness. ________ I do not think the Abhidhamma says that leaf-shape is a paramattha dhamma. I think you know that every kalapa is comprised of eight types of rupa at a minimum. What we call a tree comprises trillions of extraordinarily evanescent kalapas. _______ So, when these paramattha dhammas are not experienced, where are > they, in what sense do they exist, and how are they known to exist? The fact > that they co-occur tells us what? That they are interrelated? Or that the > package comprised of them is not mere concept but also is "real". And even if > that latter proposition were true, though it seems to contradict the > Abhidhamma understanding of pa~n~natti, one would still be justified in > asking where and in what manner such a package of dhammas, when they are not > cognized, exists. ------------------------ We know this from the teachings and from inference. I find it difficult to see how you can believe that while you are asleep , for instant, that the entire material universe has truly disappeared - and that even while awake only the very tiny parts you experience exist. It would mean the whole universe comes into being only for Howard, as if you were the creator. But anyway rupas are conditioned by several factors, not only citta. ------------------ > > Howard: > Where are those visible objects, sounds, and other sense objects when > not cognized? If we say they exist as characteristics of conventional objects > such as trees and tables, then we are not talking Abhidhamma. What sort of > visual image is unseen? What sort of sound is unheard? (Compaction and > rarefaction of matter moving as a wave? That is mere concept!) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Sound arises because it is conditioned to arise - whether it is experienced or not. For example, while I am writing this my son just came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in this case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. Even though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less real. Robert 14437 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob Mnan Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/19/02 6:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Dear Kom and Howard, I was trying to get you guys to debate one another, > not debate me. The issue is how do you understand the difference > between nama and rupa (this differentiation being a key 'first step' on > the path of purification, I think?). > ------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems easy to me to distinguish mental (nama) from physical (rupa). At least I don't believe I confuse them. Desires, aversions, feelings, thoughts, memories, and discernment (vi~n~nana) itself are experienced quite differently from sights, sounds, tastes, hardness/softness, pressures, aches, textures etc. As I understand it, phenomenalism is simply the position that all that is known or knowable is what is experienced, and radical phenomenalism amounts to the mix of phenomenalism with pragmatism which says that whatever is in principle unknowable is, for all intents and purposes, nonexistent. Experience, at least the dualistic experience of worldlings, consists of what Bhikkhu ~Nanananda, in his commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta, refers to as the vi~n~nana-namarupa "vortex", that meeting point of citta and arammana where there is merely the seen, the heard, the tasted, the smelled, the touched, and the cognized (i.e., namarupa) co-occurring with the act of discernment (i.e., vi~n~nana), two sheaves mutually supporting each other. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Is the phenomenalist perspective saying all there is is experience? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Ot at least that all that can be known and pragmatically presumed to exist is that which is experienced. ----------------------------------------------------- If> > so, wouldn't that necessitate that _both_ rupa and citta are equally > ficticious, or at least equally conventional? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see why. The fact that citta and arammana (and the object may be either nama or rupa) are interdependent, doesn't make either of them fictitious. It merely makes them two opposing aspects of one experiential event. Think of a box: there is no inside without an outside, and no outside without an inside, but that doen't make either of these fictitious (to use a conventional analogy). -------------------------------------------------------- > > I was thinking of this as a possible 'next step' after a more dualistic > discrimination. Or are the two views incompatible? I'm not exactly > crystal clear on phenomenology or the correct way to understand nama and > rupa or the remainder of the path of purification. It's all a bit murky. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm trying to get your meaning here. I think that perhaps you are considering that there is a unity of opposites involved, and that the vi~n~nana-namarupa (or citta-arammana) event is a nondual reality which lies "a step beyond". Well, I think that this has a lot to it! I personally see the cognitive event of knowing an object to be primary, with the knowing and the known being interdependent aspects of that event. But this does not make either the knowing or the known fictitious or nonexistent; it merely makes them mutually conditioned and, thereby, empty of self. As I see it, the mutual dependence of subject and object is part of their emptiness. The rest of reason for their emptiness is their dependence on previous conditions for their arising. Emptiness of most dhammas comes from conditionality. The exception to this is nibbana. Nibbana is empty in a more thorough way, being the complete absence of all possible conditions, making it the ultimate emptiness, making it "the other" of all conditions. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this make sense? > > Larry > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14438 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:11am Subject: Vegetarianism Hi all, I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the menu or buy it in the supermarket. My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for wide interpretation." I pondered. My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? Thanks, Rob M :-) 14439 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class Hi Nina, 75 minutes does sound like a long time, but it goes quickly. I prepare a lot and sometimes, I go over my time. The tea break is after my class and before Bro. Teo's class (also 75 minutes). We then have a 30 minute break before our hour of vipassana. It is a great way to spend a Sunday morning (8:45 – 13:00). Depending on the subject, there can be a lot of Q&A, though Asians are nowhere near as forthcoming as Westerners are. I will make an effort to meet A. Sujin the next time I go to Bangkok. I really appreciate all the pointers to additional material that you have given me. I would say that I feel very lucky to have stumbled across the DSG, but I can't say this as "feeling lucky" is a form of mana (conceit) :-) I would really appreciate input from the DSG on practical application of Khanti and Metta. I have lots of theory, what I am looking for are practical tips on making Khanti and Metta a bigger part of our daily lives. A sangdikha dana is a tradition in our Vihara (perhaps it is uniquely Sri Lankan) whereby we "sponsor" a vegetarian lunch for the monks and any other devotees who want to partake. The teacher of the "Buddhism for Beginners" class for 20 years recently passed away and so his ex-students (most of the teachers and adult students in the Vihara) are performing this sangdikha dana to transfer the merit to him. We have collected more than US$600 to pay the caterers (that's a lot of noodles) and many people are bringing additional food as well. There are a lot of people at the Vihara, so the food won't go to waste. The classes are in Malaysia, but I travel to China for work. Most of China (except Tibet) is Mahayana, but there is some Theravada in Yunnan province (Kunming). So far, I don't have any Dhamma-friends in China. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > Excellent that you want the Abh study relevant for daily life. 75 minutes is > long, is there a tea break? It would help if the 75 minutes are spent by way > of question and answer related to the subject. I hope you can meet A. Sujin > one day, you are in the region. > Now you have quite a list, and it may be good if you remind us all of the > next topic, one at a time. Because it is really useful and interesting to > see what different people write and what points they stress in accordance > with their accumulations. > So, the next one is adosa: khanti and metta. Nothing is really easy I find, > especially when it comes to the practice. You may like the Roots of Good and > Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 251-253. Also under useful posts you may find > the subjects of metta and patience. Or A. Sujin's book which I translated: > Metta, Loving kindness in Buddhism, which is on line: Zolag. She gives > guidance on the development of metta and points out the impediments. I shall > select some of her points, but I do hope others in this forum will help > also, especially handing out examples from daily life. That is what you > want, you have plenty of books already. > You could also try my "Perfections leading to Enlightenment", on Abh. Org. > web. It could give you ideas about metta, upekkha, etc. > It is difficult to treat a subject in isolation, everything is connected > with everything. When you speak about metta, TMt is also hard at work. When > you speak about the abstinences you have to speak about metta, which is very > necessary for abstention from evil. It is all most intricate. > What is sangdikha dana? Is the class in China? You have to travel a lot. > Best wishes, > Nina. > 14440 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: Vegetarianism Hi Rob M, The Precepts, as I understand, are training rules not Commandments, but this is a question and comes up often on discussion lists, and in interaction with others in my life as well ... I did become a vegetarian for a while, and enjoyed it, until I realised how many sentient beings are destroyed (literally in the millions) for each acre of vegetables ploughed, fertilised and sprayed. And yet, vegetarians keep buying vegetables and fruits, or even gardening themselves. Interesting. Everything we do can cause harm. A few links for your weekend reading. :) metta, Christine On Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm Buddhism and Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha151.htm Buddhism and Vegetarianism - the Rationale for the Buddhas' views on the consumption of meat http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha069.htm Are you a Herbivore or a Carnivore http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha156.htm Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because > they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My > understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was > not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who > is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > open for wide interpretation." > > I pondered. > > My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then > asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My > friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14441 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:54am Subject: Re: Vegetarianism Dear Rob., I can add a little. This question comes up because most people have not studied the deeper nature of realities. They confuse the eating of meat with a long story of an animal being killed. But at the moments of eating there may be insight into reality and this can be whether the meal is vegetarian or meat.(there may also be greed or anger or countless other realities). Sometimes people will say eating meat is like accepting stolen goods because although we didn't kill we accept the result. But it is different because unlike stolen goods life can never be returned. Or people think that if more people became vegetarian there would be less killing. Again this is unlikely and doesn't take into acount the workings of kamma. The only way to reduce killing is if we ourselves deepen understanding- then we at least will not kill. The Buddha himself accepted meat provided it wasn't killed especially for him. And this is something we can practice. I was trekking in thailand once and some villagers were going to kill a chicken for our dinner but I said we would be happy with just vegetable. This cause a slight problem as the guide said the Headman felt slighted by my refusal but I stayed firm and the chicken lived -- at least until the next group arrived. Devadatta, in order to split the sangha asked the buddha to accept vegetarianism (among other rules)for the monks (he knew the Buddha would refuse),and he also knew that people equate being a vegan with spiritual development. So Devadatta and his followers were vegetarian . Of course if someone wants to stop eating meat for some reason or another fine - but I think it is not an especially spiritual thing to do. Robert - "robmoult" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because > they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My > understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was > not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who > is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > open for wide interpretation." > > I pondered. > > My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then > asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My > friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14442 From: Purnomo . Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vegetarianism hi all, I am interested in topic of vegetarian. For me, we don't kill when we eat meat if the meat(animal) has dead. If we want to eat meat then we kill the animal, this is killing. But if we buy meat in the supermarket, the meat(animal) in condition died so we don't kill. So, in the supermarket or restaurant(especially sea food restaurant) if we want to buy or eat meat so we have to check the meat. was it die or not? If it's not, and we buy it so we acted killing. The Buddha explained clearly of the first precept. There are four factor of killing: 1. There are human 2. The human is living 3. we have got 'want' to kill it 4. The human was died because we killed it If one of four factor we don't get it so we wasn't killing. We have to remember, too, that the precept(sila) have got three basics: 1. wanting(cetana) 2. self-practice 3. abstain from... For example, I hit someone and the one was died. I haven't got 'wanting' to kill him. I am still 'wanting' to 'practice' myself to 'abstain' from killing. And I hit him because it's an accident. I can't abstain. So, there are 2 basics else which I keep. may these comentary used to you happy, purnomo >From: "robmoult" >Reply->>Subject: [dsg] Vegetarianism >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:11:41 -0000 > >Hi all, > >I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I >thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > >I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to >abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because >they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My >understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was >not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other >words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you >pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the >menu or buy it in the supermarket. > >My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who >is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left >open for wide interpretation." > >I pondered. > >My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the >Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then >asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there >were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My >friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > >So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that >something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for >wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the >Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > >Thanks, >Rob M :-) 14443 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:07pm Subject: Re: Vegetarianism 'Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat' by Ajahn Brahmavamso http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut034.htm Correcting an incorrect link in my last post. C. --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > The Precepts, as I understand, are training rules not Commandments, > but this is a question and comes up often on discussion lists, and in > interaction with others in my life as well ... I did become a > vegetarian for a while, and enjoyed it, until I realised how many > sentient beings are destroyed (literally in the millions) for each > acre of vegetables ploughed, fertilised and sprayed. And yet, > vegetarians keep buying vegetables and fruits, or even gardening > themselves. Interesting. Everything we do can cause harm. A few > links for your weekend reading. :) > > metta, > Christine > > > On Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha151.htm > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism - the Rationale for the Buddhas' views on > the consumption of meat > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha069.htm > > Are you a Herbivore or a Carnivore > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha156.htm > > Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm > 14444 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:26pm Subject: Re: Vegetarianism Hi Robert / Christine, I don't have a moral problem with being a carnivore (I enjoy a Big Mac as much as the next guy). I guess that my problem is the difference between Theravada and Mahayana. If the Mahayanists want to introduce Kuan Yin and focus on "faith" to get to the Pure Land, I'm okay with that. To me, that is a question of style, not substance. On the other hand, the five precepts are about as "core" as you can get. Should they be open to interpretation? I don't want to say that the Mahayanists are "wrong", but my friend's accountant mind says that there should be a "wrong" and a "right" on something as fundamental as the precepts. Precepts are rules of training, but the five precepts certainly have a moral foundation (at least the first four do). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > 'Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat' by Ajahn > Brahmavamso > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut034.htm > > Correcting an incorrect link in my last post. > > C. > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > > > The Precepts, as I understand, are training rules not Commandments, > > but this is a question and comes up often on discussion lists, and > in > > interaction with others in my life as well ... I did become a > > vegetarian for a while, and enjoyed it, until I realised how many > > sentient beings are destroyed (literally in the millions) for each > > acre of vegetables ploughed, fertilised and sprayed. And yet, > > vegetarians keep buying vegetables and fruits, or even gardening > > themselves. Interesting. Everything we do can cause harm. A few > > links for your weekend reading. :) > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > > > On Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > > > Vinaya - What the Buddha said about eating meat > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha022.htm > > > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha151.htm > > > > Buddhism and Vegetarianism - the Rationale for the Buddhas' views > on > > the consumption of meat > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha069.htm > > > > Are you a Herbivore or a Carnivore > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha156.htm > > > > Vegetarianism http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm > > 14445 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vegetarianism Hi Purnomo, I think that your analysis agrees with the Theravada view (my view as well). One small correction to your message, however, on your use of the word "human". The first word of the precept in Pali is "Panatipata". In his book, "Going for Refuge Taking the Precepts", Bhikkhu Bodhi explains that "pana" means "that which breaths" and therefore includes men, animals and insects but not plants. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > hi all, > > I am interested in topic of vegetarian. For me, we don't kill when we eat > meat if the meat(animal) has dead. If we want to eat meat then we kill the > animal, this is killing. But if we buy meat in the supermarket, the > meat(animal) in condition died so we don't kill. So, in the supermarket or > restaurant(especially sea food restaurant) if we want to buy or eat meat so > we have to check the meat. was it die or not? If it's not, and we buy it so > we acted killing. > The Buddha explained clearly of the first precept. There are four factor of > killing: > 1. There are human > 2. The human is living > 3. we have got 'want' to kill it > 4. The human was died because we killed it > If one of four factor we don't get it so we wasn't killing. > We have to remember, too, that the precept(sila) have got three basics: > 1. wanting(cetana) > 2. self-practice > 3. abstain from... > For example, > I hit someone and the one was died. I haven't got 'wanting' to kill him. I > am still 'wanting' to 'practice' myself to 'abstain' from killing. And I hit > him because it's an accident. I can't abstain. So, there are 2 basics else > which I keep. > > may these comentary used to you > > > happy, > > purnomo > >From: "robmoult" > >Subject: [dsg] Vegetarianism > >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:11:41 -0000 > > > >Hi all, > > > >I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > >thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > > >I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > >abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian because > >they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. My > >understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal was > >not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > >words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > >pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > >menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > > >My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, who > >is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > >open for wide interpretation." > > > >I pondered. > > > >My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > >Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He then > >asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > >were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. My > >friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > > >So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > >something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > >wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > >Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > > >Thanks, > >Rob M :-) 14446 From: kkyaw88 Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism I do not understand all but so far as i know, Buddha solved this problem as follow: Devadad, one of the chief deciples of Buddha, proposed ten commentments. it is included that meat should not be eaten. Buddha said I have no objection. If u think u can do it, u do it. The question is why devadad cannot do it. Buddha will eat everything, whatever u eat and u offer. But if u offer shit, he will not deny if u eat shit. That is my understanding so far as i study. ----- Original Message ----- From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism > Dear Rob., > I can add a little. This question comes up > because most people have not studied the deeper nature > of realities. They confuse the eating of meat with a > long story of an animal being killed. But at the > moments of eating there may be insight into reality > and this can be whether the meal is vegetarian or > meat.(there may also be greed or anger or countless > other realities). > Sometimes people will say eating meat is like > accepting stolen goods because although we didn't kill > we accept the result. But it is different because > unlike stolen goods life can never be returned. > Or people think that if more people became vegetarian > there would be less killing. Again this is unlikely > and doesn't take into acount the workings of kamma. > The only way to reduce killing is if we ourselves > deepen understanding- then we at least will not kill. > > The Buddha himself accepted meat provided it wasn't > killed especially for him. And this is something we > can practice. I was trekking in thailand once and some > villagers were going to kill a chicken for our dinner > but I said we would be happy with just vegetable. This cause a > slight problem as the guide said the Headman felt slighted by my > refusal but I stayed firm and the chicken lived -- at least until > the next group arrived. > > Devadatta, in order to split the sangha asked the > buddha to accept vegetarianism (among other rules)for > the monks (he knew the Buddha would refuse),and he > also knew that people equate being a vegan with > spiritual development. So Devadatta and his followers > were vegetarian . Of course if someone > wants to stop eating meat for some reason or another fine - > but I think it is not an especially spiritual thing to > do. > Robert > - "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > > > I said that all Buddhists should follow the first precept, to > > abstain from killing. Many Mahayana Buddhists are vegetarian > because > > they interpret the eating of meat as indirect killing of animals. > My > > understanding of the Theravada perspective is that if the animal > was > > not killed explicitly for me, then eating meat is okay. In other > > words, I cannot go to one of those seafood restaurants where you > > pick the fish that you want to eat, but I can order fish from the > > menu or buy it in the supermarket. > > > > My friend said, "I am an accountant. I don't like ambiguity. So, > who > > is right? Something as fundamental as a precept should not be left > > open for wide interpretation." > > > > I pondered. > > > > My friend continued, "Is it true that after enlightenment, the > > Buddha upheld all of the precepts." I said that it was true. He > then > > asked, "Did the Buddha eat meat?" I said that I thought that there > > were instances when the Buddha ate meat when it was given to him. > My > > friend said, "So then eating meat is not breaking a precept." > > > > So here is my question to the DSG. I agree with my friend that > > something as fundamental as a precept should not be left open for > > wide interpretation. However, I don't want to say that the > > Mahayanists are wrong. What is your view? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14447 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class/Metta (and khanti) Hi Rob M, I always find it easier to pervade metta to beings I respect, love, know well - teachers, relatives, dear friends as well as categories of others who I don't know at all - refugees, horses and cows in the paddock a kilometre away. Pervading metta formally is much easier for me than in daily life. I have difficulty with someone I regularly work with who is constantly unhelpful, thoughtless, or damaging towards others. Pervading metta even when they are absent is still 'coloured' by the 'emotional flavour' I associate with the thought of them. I have had some success with changing my reactions. When feeling exasperated by the same person frequently, as well as wishing them well, I try to put myself in their position and think how I would like to be treated if I was living their life, and then treat them that way. Most people want overt respect and kindness shown to them. Most people want to be liked, and to have people interested in them. Change is often slow but I try to be consistent and kind in my dealings with them, and one or two 'small miracles' have occurred. - probably in me...... What I find most difficult is wishing or feeling metta for those I don't like or who I'm frightened of, when I am face to face with them. If I have strong fear or aversion I often try to think of them before I see them, as separate 'parts', as skin, teeth, intestines until I can realise there is no 'one' to judge or be frightened of. Then I try to see that, like me, they are subject to birth aging and death, kamma and relentless re-birth. If we are both of us subject to this same suffering, somehow they don't seem so different to me, not so scary, not so unlikeable. Metta is then often possible during an interview. Actually, it is as much Metta as Precept that is responsible for my view of the necessity to treat possums, rats, cockroaches and spiders kindly. "Just as I want to be happy, all beings want to be happy." Thus looking at non-harming alternatives to worldly pest control. It also seems to me that with Metta occurring, Khanti would also arise; and Compassion (Karuna) and Equanimity (Upekkha) would be there as well. "The Metta Sutta consists of three parts, each of which focuses on a distinct aspect of metta. The first part (lines 3 to 10) covers that aspect which requires a thorough and systematic application of loving- kindness in one's day-to-day conduct." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel365.html#ch3 The Karaniya Metta Sutta - Hymm of Universal Love. Just my thoughts, metta, :) Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > 75 minutes does sound like a long time, but it goes quickly. I > prepare a lot and sometimes, I go over my time. The tea break is > after my class and before Bro. Teo's class (also 75 minutes). We > then have a 30 minute break before our hour of vipassana. It is a > great way to spend a Sunday morning (8:45 – 13:00). Depending on the > subject, there can be a lot of Q&A, though Asians are nowhere near > as forthcoming as Westerners are. > > I will make an effort to meet A. Sujin the next time I go to Bangkok. > > I really appreciate all the pointers to additional material that you > have given me. I would say that I feel very lucky to have stumbled > across the DSG, but I can't say this as "feeling lucky" is a form of > mana (conceit) :-) > > I would really appreciate input from the DSG on practical > application of Khanti and Metta. I have lots of theory, what I am > looking for are practical tips on making Khanti and Metta a bigger > part of our daily lives. > > A sangdikha dana is a tradition in our Vihara (perhaps it is > uniquely Sri Lankan) whereby we "sponsor" a vegetarian lunch for the > monks and any other devotees who want to partake. The teacher of > the "Buddhism for Beginners" class for 20 years recently passed away > and so his ex-students (most of the teachers and adult students in > the Vihara) are performing this sangdikha dana to transfer the merit > to him. We have collected more than US$600 to pay the caterers > (that's a lot of noodles) and many people are bringing additional > food as well. There are a lot of people at the Vihara, so the food > won't go to waste. > > The classes are in Malaysia, but I travel to China for work. Most of > China (except Tibet) is Mahayana, but there is some Theravada in > Yunnan province (Kunming). So far, I don't have any Dhamma-friends > in China. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > > Excellent that you want the Abh study relevant for daily life. 75 > minutes is > > long, is there a tea break? It would help if the 75 minutes are > spent by way > > of question and answer related to the subject. I hope you can meet > A. Sujin > > one day, you are in the region. > > Now you have quite a list, and it may be good if you remind us all > of the > > next topic, one at a time. Because it is really useful and > interesting to > > see what different people write and what points they stress in > accordance > > with their accumulations. > > So, the next one is adosa: khanti and metta. Nothing is really > easy I find, > > especially when it comes to the practice. You may like the Roots > of Good and > > Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 251-253. Also under useful posts > you may find > > the subjects of metta and patience. Or A. Sujin's book which I > translated: > > Metta, Loving kindness in Buddhism, which is on line: Zolag. She > gives > > guidance on the development of metta and points out the > impediments. I shall > > select some of her points, but I do hope others in this forum will > help > > also, especially handing out examples from daily life. That is > what you > > want, you have plenty of books already. > > You could also try my "Perfections leading to Enlightenment", on > Abh. Org. > > web. It could give you ideas about metta, upekkha, etc. > > It is difficult to treat a subject in isolation, everything is > connected > > with everything. When you speak about metta, TMt is also hard at > work. When > > you speak about the abstinences you have to speak about metta, > which is very > > necessary for abstention from evil. It is all most intricate. > > What is sangdikha dana? Is the class in China? You have to travel > a lot. > > Best wishes, > > Nina. > > 14448 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood Hi Frank, --- frank kuan wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > Among the excerpts you listed, I did not see my > favorite one. The one about the 2 parents and their > only beloved child crossing the desert in a famine. > I'll refrain from mentioning details, as I know some > of us on dsg are kind of squeamish. But that simile is > awesome in putting into perspective what role eating > should constitute in our lives. Yes, I think I hesitated too and left it out of my Vism ref (I think only).. As it is of significance to you, I'd appreciate a brief summary and yr comments as to why you find it awesome and not 'squeamish'....you can always put a warning at the top;-)Thanks in advance. ***** I'm in a Bondi internet caf and just printing out messages to read later. (....freeeeezing water, not much surf for Jon, but calm, clear water and winter sun for me as well as great yoga classes and healthy food with old friends...hmmm - more lobha;-)) Sarah (Sydney) ======= 14449 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class/Metta (and khanti) Hi Christine, I like your input. I am going to collect a number of people's perspectives and summarize them for the class. I remember the following exchange at a Dhamma talk on Metta: Layperson: There is a person at work who really annoys me. I have been radiating metta to her for some time, but her behaviour hasn't changed. What should I do next? Monk: First, recognize that the problem is in you, not in them. Focus on your reaction, not their behaviour. Your reaction creates kamma for you, just as their behaviour creats kamma for them. Secondly, do you really believe that sitting in your room thinking about somebody else is going to change them? Do you believe that there is some sort of psychic lightning that jumps from your mind to theirs? Your metta meditation should motivate YOU to ACTION. Go to that person that you do not like and do something nice for them... something really nice. Have your actions motivated by metta. This will change their behaviour and create good kamma for you. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > I always find it easier to pervade metta to beings I respect, love, > know well - teachers, relatives, dear friends as well as categories > of others who I don't know at all - refugees, horses and cows in > the paddock a kilometre away. Pervading metta formally is much > easier for me than in daily life. I have difficulty with someone I > regularly work with who is constantly unhelpful, thoughtless, or > damaging towards others. Pervading metta even when they are absent is > still 'coloured' by the 'emotional flavour' I associate with the > thought of them. I have had some success with changing my reactions. > When feeling exasperated by the same person frequently, as well as > wishing them well, I try to put myself in their position and think > how I would like to be treated if I was living their life, and then > treat them that way. Most people want overt respect and kindness > shown to them. Most people want to be liked, and to have people > interested in them. Change is often slow but I try to be consistent > and kind in my dealings with them, and one or two 'small miracles' > have occurred. - probably in me...... What I find most difficult is > wishing or feeling metta for those I don't like or who I'm frightened > of, when I am face to face with them. If I have strong fear or > aversion I often try to think of them before I see them, as > separate 'parts', as skin, teeth, intestines until I can realise > there is no 'one' to judge or be frightened of. Then I try to see > that, like me, they are subject to birth aging and death, kamma and > relentless re-birth. If we are both of us subject to this same > suffering, somehow they don't seem so different to me, not so scary, > not so unlikeable. Metta is then often possible during an > interview. Actually, it is as much Metta as Precept that is > responsible for my view of the necessity to treat possums, rats, > cockroaches and spiders kindly. "Just as I want to be happy, all > beings want to be happy." Thus looking at non-harming alternatives to > worldly pest control. It also seems to me that with Metta > occurring, Khanti would also arise; and Compassion (Karuna) and > Equanimity (Upekkha) would be there as well. > > "The Metta Sutta consists of three parts, each of which focuses on a > distinct aspect of metta. The first part (lines 3 to 10) covers that > aspect which requires a thorough and systematic application of loving- > kindness in one's day-to-day conduct." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel365.html#ch3 The > Karaniya Metta Sutta - Hymm of Universal Love. > Just my thoughts, > metta, :) > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > > 75 minutes does sound like a long time, but it goes quickly. I > > prepare a lot and sometimes, I go over my time. The tea break is > > after my class and before Bro. Teo's class (also 75 minutes). We > > then have a 30 minute break before our hour of vipassana. It is a > > great way to spend a Sunday morning (8:45 – 13:00). Depending > on > the > > subject, there can be a lot of Q&A, though Asians are nowhere near > > as forthcoming as Westerners are. > > > > I will make an effort to meet A. Sujin the next time I go to > Bangkok. > > > > I really appreciate all the pointers to additional material that > you > > have given me. I would say that I feel very lucky to have stumbled > > across the DSG, but I can't say this as "feeling lucky" is a form > of > > mana (conceit) :-) > > > > I would really appreciate input from the DSG on practical > > application of Khanti and Metta. I have lots of theory, what I am > > looking for are practical tips on making Khanti and Metta a bigger > > part of our daily lives. > > > > A sangdikha dana is a tradition in our Vihara (perhaps it is > > uniquely Sri Lankan) whereby we "sponsor" a vegetarian lunch for > the > > monks and any other devotees who want to partake. The teacher of > > the "Buddhism for Beginners" class for 20 years recently passed > away > > and so his ex-students (most of the teachers and adult students in > > the Vihara) are performing this sangdikha dana to transfer the > merit > > to him. We have collected more than US$600 to pay the caterers > > (that's a lot of noodles) and many people are bringing additional > > food as well. There are a lot of people at the Vihara, so the food > > won't go to waste. > > > > The classes are in Malaysia, but I travel to China for work. Most > of > > China (except Tibet) is Mahayana, but there is some Theravada in > > Yunnan province (Kunming). So far, I don't have any Dhamma- friends > > in China. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: 14450 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob Mnan HI Larry, > -----Original Message----- > > Dear Kom and Howard, I was trying to get you > guys to debate one another, > > not debate me. The issue is how do you > understand the difference > > between nama and rupa (this differentiation > being a key 'first step' on > > the path of purification, I think?). > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > It seems easy to me to distinguish mental > (nama) from physical (rupa). > At least I don't believe I confuse them. Desires, > aversions, feelings, > thoughts, memories, and discernment (vi~n~nana) > itself are experienced quite > differently from sights, sounds, tastes, > hardness/softness, pressures, aches, > textures etc. ----------------------------------------------- Kom: Why would you want a debate on something that cannot be proven to you (phenomenonlism vs ???), and in my opinion, isn't all that helpful. I think you may want to study the texts yourself to see what the Buddha said. I do like Howard's description of the differences between Nama and Rupa above. > As I understand it, phenomenalism is > simply the position that all > that is known or knowable is what is experienced, > and radical phenomenalism > amounts to the mix of phenomenalism with > pragmatism which says that whatever > is in principle unknowable is, for all intents > and purposes, nonexistent. Kom: My understanding of the buddha's teachings is slightly different: whatever is in principle unknowable is unimportant (not necessarily non-existent), as it cannot be the foundation of sati. > Experience, at least the dualistic > experience of worldlings, consists > of what Bhikkhu ~Nanananda, in his commentary on > the Kalakarama Sutta, refers > to as the vi~n~nana-namarupa "vortex", that > meeting point of citta and > arammana where there is merely the seen, the > heard, the tasted, the smelled, > the touched, and the cognized (i.e., namarupa) > co-occurring with the act of > discernment (i.e., vi~n~nana), two sheaves > mutually supporting each other. > -------------------------------------------------- Kom: Based on the teachings of the Abhidhamma (patthana: the 24 major conditions), I would have to say that Howard's position (if I understand correctly) is not consistent with the teachings. The teachings assert that although Nama is conditioned by the rupa, the rupa is not necessarily conditioned by the nama. For example, for an outside visible object (not connected to the body), the visible object conditions the seeing citta to arise, but the seeing citta doesn't condition the visible object in anyway. There are some occurances where nama and rupa (not necessarily *cognized* nama) are mutual dependent, but it isn't always. Again, you may want to see for your self what the Buddha has taught, instead of relying on either of our positions. > Howard: > I don't see why. The fact that citta and > arammana (and the object may > be either nama or rupa) are interdependent, > doesn't make either of them > fictitious. It merely makes them two opposing > aspects of one experiential > event. Think of a box: there is no inside without > an outside, and no outside > without an inside, but that doen't make either of > these fictitious (to use a > conventional analogy). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard, I appreciate the careful clarity of what you write, as always. kom 14451 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood about the parents and their only child crossing the desert in a famine: --- Sarah wrote: > As it is of significance to you, I'd appreciate a > brief summary and yr > comments as to why you find it awesome and not > 'squeamish'....you can > always put a warning at the top;-)Thanks in advance. > ***** The simile (which one can read in the visudhimagga) really puts into perspective the role of eating and what priority it should have in our precious and fragile life. I think it's pretty clear without any commentary, if people can put aside their cultural biases and attachments to a limited defintion of morality. -fk 14452 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/19/02 9:06:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > Sound arises because it is conditioned to arise - whether it is > experienced or not. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What *is* unheard sound? To me, all sounds are heard by some sentient being or other (not necessarily me - I'm not a solipsist). The physicist will say that sound is a wave which is the propagation of compaction and rarefaction of molecules. But that is all pa~n~nati, isn't it? What is the paramattha dhamma called a sound, and where is it when not heard? ---------------------------------------------------- For example, while I am writing this my son just > > came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in this > case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you > there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't doubt it. ---------------------------------------------------- Even > > though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less real. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. when you hear sounds those are actual sounds that you hear. But when no sentient being hears a sound, where and what do you mean by a 'sound'? ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14453 From: Immortal Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism I rarely comment on this group, but on the topic of vegetarianism I know a decent amount. There are many tales of the buddha being welcomed into feasts and eating meat. It comes down to the ever-changing reality. Each reality, each belief is different from person to person. If, a person believes that killing is wrong, and eating meat is wrong than they are right. But, if you kill to survive and eat meat to survive. That too is right. Its not about a single rule that will govern Buddhism and a "static" reality. It comes down to the "flowing reality". If you keep moving, if you are ever-changing with your reality than what you do is correct if you do it with right mindfulness. I myself eat meat, because there are health concerns about the breakdown of protiens and such with my active lifestyle. When I eat, I only *eat*. I focus one hundred percent on eating, being thankful for every single piece of food I have. Whether it be the flesh of an animal or the flesh of a plant. It is all sacred and something had to suffer and die for me to eat no matter what I eat. Thats, my reality. Take what you will from it, and think about your own reality. Thanks... KT. -- Returning to the Shadows. ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not descend, and while everything changes. Nothing is truly lost. 14454 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:15pm Subject: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Dear All, "This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain and grief, for reaching the Noble Path, for the realization of Nibbana, namely, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness." Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 22) The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are Contemplation of the Body; Contemplation of Feelings; Contemplation of Mind; and Contemplation of Mind Objects. Nyanaponika Thera says that it is essential that the Contemplation of Feelings should also be remembered and applied in daily life whenever feelings are prone to turn into unwholesome emotions. To do this, he says, feelings should be taken up for mindful observation when they occur. There should be mindful awareness of the feelings when they arise, and one whould clearly distinguish them as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral, respectively. Then he says mindfulness should be maintained throughout the short duration of that specific feeling, down to its cessation. 'Short duration' ..... This is where I have a difficulty. Perhaps it is in being mindful and being able to separate the Feelings from the Emotions that I am not succeeding. Perhaps it is because mindfulness is weak ..... I'm definitely not mindful of a short duration of a specific feeling, or it's cessation. The one state (emotion), often one I cannot 'name', seems to last for long periods of time.... There doesn't seem much difference between the person called Christine of four years ago (pre-Dhamma days) and now. Still subject to tides of emotion, still don't realise it's happening until minutes, sometimes hours, of being swept along wherever the tide takes me. Nothing much shows on the outside - I'm usually seen by others as a calm and controlled person - such a misjudgment ....that's just the outward appearance ... earthquakes of emotion and disorderly thoughts on the inside. How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they all automatically intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished in..... metta, Christine 14455 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:16pm Subject: vegetarianism Instead of focusing so much on what the precepts say, and whether we're technically abiding by it to the letter, it may be more productive to focus on why you eat and why you eat the things you eat. Is it for nutrition? maximum flavor? Clearly the spirit of the precepts is to maximize compassion and minimize harm to other sentient beings and the environment. Is your diet in accordance to that spirit? Everyone has different circumstances, different nutritional needs, different socio-economic reasons for eating what they eat. For practical reasons, there is no perfect metta-ahimsas-diet that fits all. But I find it disturbing that so many Buddhists are complacent and content that their diet TECHNICALLY accords with the Buddha's advice on what should be eaten. Reality check time. It's pretty damn easy to not violate those precepts. It's not so easy to really examine what we eat, why we eat, and what we can do to minimize harm. And let's not forget, the renunciates for whom those precepts were made are completely reliant on what the laypeople provide to them. Laypeople have much greater freedom in deciding their own diet. Laypeople perhaps underestimate their own capacity to widen their circle of compassion and make a strong effort to follow THE SPIRIT of the precept. Not eating more than necessary, examining what we eat and experimenting with different ways of eating more compassionately is something we can all practice. -fk 14456 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:32pm Subject: 6 Pairs I am preparing my class notes for the Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas. My first question is, "why do have pairs of these cetasikas (i.e. separate cetasikas to apply for cittas and cetasikas) when all the other cetasikas come as "one of a kind"? In other words, why do we need to differentiate pliancy of cittas as distinct from pliancy of cetasikas when we don't differentiate any other cetasikas? My class notes will start with some routine technical definition stuff (characterisitics, function, manifestation, proximate cause) plus some bullet points summarized from Nina's book "Cetasikas". I will then have some points about the interaction between the pairs (information extracted from "Abhidhamma Studies"). I want to follow this up with the more practical aspect ("in daily life") using Nina's suggestion of noting the difference between kusala and akusala cittas. I am 80% sure of the following (I really added a lot of my own interpretations - perhaps too much). I am hoping that the DSG can: - Correct any misinterpretations - Add new points using the same format to further clarify the differences in mental states between Mr. A and Mr. B. ================================================================== Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. A said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the difference in the mental states between Mr. A (akusala, with lobha) and Mr. B (kusala). Citta-passaddhi and Kaya-passaddhi (Tranquility of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. Citta-lahuta and Kaya-lahuta (Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy of Citta and Cetasikas) For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. Citta-muduta and Kaya-muduta (Elasticity / Pliancy of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana (conceit). Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is naturally spreading the Dhamma lessons learned to many aspects of his life. Citta-kammannata and Kaya-kammannata (Adaptability / Wieldiness / Workableness of Citta and Cetasikas) Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would say that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" (dosa). His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories thereby making his mind less workable. Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of mudutŒ (pliancy); not too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as to have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next sensation. Citta-pagunnata and Kaya-pagunnata (Proficiency of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A is now feeling dukkha. He misses the fun experience of the Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma talk and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental state confidence and strength. Cittujjukata and Kayujjukata (Rectitude / Uprightness of Citta and Cetasikas) Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. There is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the moral quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic effect for Mr. A. ================================================================== I am looking forward to your comments! Thanks, Rob M :-) 14457 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there --- Howard wrote: > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What *is* unheard sound? To me, all sounds are heard by some sentient > being or other (not necessarily me - I'm not a solipsist). The physicist will > say that sound is a wave which is the propagation of compaction and > rarefaction of molecules. But that is all pa~n~nati, isn't it? What is the > paramattha dhamma called a sound, and where is it when not heard? > ---------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Not necessary to think about sound waves. I think a careful study of the Abhidhamma texts helps to calrify this matter. Sound can be produced by citta i.e.cittasamutthana rupa- (such as vacivinnati -speaking) or it can be produced by another cause- utu (temperature). Sound is not originated by kamma or ahara (nutrition) although other types of matter are. Sotavinnana (hearing consciousness ) can only arise if sound contacts the earbase - but the converse is not true: For example, sound may arise anywhere such as a rock falling down a cliff (it is utu-samutthana -rupa) ; it arises whether it is experienced or not. ___________________ > For example, while I am writing this my son just > > > came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in this > > case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you > > there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't doubt it. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Even > > > though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less real. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course. when you hear sounds those are actual sounds that you hear. > But when no sentient being hears a sound, where and what do you mean by a > 'sound'? > ========================== A sound is a sound, it is not conditioned by the citta that experiences it - but the converse is true: The citta that experiences it is conditioned by the sound. > Metta Robert 14458 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:34pm Subject: Re: 6 Pairs I like it very much Rob. I think everyone will get the picture - Perhaps you were just a tad hard on poor Mr. A and a bit soft on mr. B. I think most of us, most of the time alternate bettwen the two . Dhamma talks lasts a long time - during it we could have been mr. A and then mr. B in succession several times; not to mention afterwards. It can be hard to know whether the warm feelings are with lobha or kusala. But really very nicely explained, my comments are quibbles. Robert "robmoult" wrote: > > I am 80% sure of the following (I really added a lot of my own > interpretations - perhaps too much). I am hoping that the DSG can: > - Correct any misinterpretations > - Add new points using the same format to further clarify the > differences in mental states between Mr. A and Mr. B. > > ================================================================== > > Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas > > Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. A > said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I > listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the > difference in the mental states between Mr. A (akusala, with lobha) > and Mr. B (kusala). > > Citta-passaddhi and Kaya-passaddhi (Tranquility of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His > pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). > > Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling > from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. > > > Citta-lahuta and Kaya-lahuta (Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy of > Citta and Cetasikas) > For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There > are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. > > Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His > mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. > > > Citta-muduta and Kaya-muduta (Elasticity / Pliancy of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not > on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana > (conceit). > > Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is > naturally spreading the Dhamma lessons learned to many aspects of > his life. > > > Citta-kammannata and Kaya-kammannata (Adaptability / Wieldiness / > Workableness of Citta and Cetasikas) > Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would say > that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" (dosa). > His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He > rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories > thereby making his mind less workable. > > Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of mudutŒ (pliancy); not > too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as to > have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next > sensation. > > > Citta-pagunnata and Kaya-pagunnata (Proficiency of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A is now feeling dukkha. He misses the fun experience of the > Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". > > Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma talk > and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental state > confidence and strength. > > > Cittujjukata and Kayujjukata (Rectitude / Uprightness of Citta and > Cetasikas) > Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased > that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. There > is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. > > Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / > volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the moral > quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma > talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic effect > for Mr. A. > > ================================================================== > > I am looking forward to your comments! > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14459 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi Christine, [snip] Christine: How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by feelings and emotions. Christine: Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? Christine: Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the exclusion of all others? Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of all others? Christine: Or do they all automatically intermingle? Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job easier. Wouldn't it? Christine: Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished in..... Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > > metta, > Christine Regards, Victor 14460 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:59pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi Christine, I have a slightly different understanding of "feelings". In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, we see that there are only three feelings named, "pleasant, painful or neutral". They also ask us to differentiate between When the Abhidhamma catalogues the cittas, one of the ways of splitting out the lobha-mula cittas and the beautiful cittas is according to the associated feeling (pleasant, painful or neutral). You can use whichever foundation suits you, but my advice is that you keep on watching your breath during meditation. Trying to catch the feeling associated with each citta would be next to impossible (millions of cittas each microsecond) unless you have already developed wise attention (yoniso manasikara) as a mental habit. The Buddha used mindfulness of breath under the Bodhi tree. We also need to be careful of the word, "mindfulness". You have used it in a non-technical sense in your posting, whereas in the Suttas and in Abhidhamma, "mindfulness" (sati) has a very specific meaning. The best description of Sati that I have found is in Chapter 13 of the book, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Here is a link, http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before you identify it. That is a stage of Sati. Sati is a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation" There are three fundamental activities of Sati: - Sati reminds us what we are supposed to be doing - Sati sees things as they really are - Sati sees the deep nature of all phenomena - Mindfulness is non-forgetful of kusala and keeps us from akusala Those who do not know the Dhamma can perform kusala deeds, but our knowledge of the Dhamma helps us to be mindful of what is kusala and what is akusala (sharing merit is kusala, killing insects is akusala) People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases after those who have sati Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. In brief, you can't be "mindful" of emotions because emotions are concepts and sati works at the pre-conceptual level. You must see emotions as what they are; things that you add on to cover up reality. Remember that the emotions are not reality, you have distorted reality with these emotions because of your past accumulations. Seeing them for what they are takes their power away. Maybe not immediately (deeply ingrained), but give it time. Christine, I am sorry if my message has generated more confusion. I sense a frustration in your message regarding a lack of progress in your meditation. Let me share with you a personal story. Seven months ago, I returned to Jakarta. My wife (Indonesian-Chinese) and I decided to go back to the small Thai Vihara where we were married twelve years previously. As we sat on the floor, an old monk came in and sat in front of us. After a brief introduction, he looked me in the eye and asked, "How is your meditation?" I squirmed. Could he read my mind? He said, "You will not find anything that you are looking for. Think of meditation as your duty. Your responsibility is to sit. Good sitting, bad sitting, it doesn't matter. Your duty is to sit. When conditions arise, the results will appear. You are not responsible for the results, you are only responsible for sitting." Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > "This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the > overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain > and grief, for reaching the Noble Path, for the realization of > Nibbana, namely, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness." > Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 22) > The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are Contemplation of the Body; > Contemplation of Feelings; Contemplation of Mind; and Contemplation > of Mind Objects. > Nyanaponika Thera says that it is essential that > the Contemplation of Feelings should also be remembered and applied > in daily life whenever feelings are prone to turn into unwholesome > emotions. To do this, he says, feelings should be taken up for > mindful observation when they occur. There should be mindful > awareness of the feelings when they arise, and one whould clearly > distinguish them as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral, > respectively. Then he says mindfulness should be maintained > throughout the short duration of that specific feeling, down to its > cessation. > 'Short duration' ..... This is where I have a difficulty. Perhaps it > is in being mindful and being able to separate the Feelings from the > Emotions that I am not succeeding. Perhaps it is because mindfulness > is weak ..... I'm definitely not mindful of a short duration of a > specific feeling, or it's cessation. The one state (emotion), often > one I cannot 'name', seems to last for long periods of time.... There > doesn't seem much difference between the person called Christine of > four years ago (pre-Dhamma days) and now. Still subject to tides of > emotion, still don't realise it's happening until minutes, sometimes > hours, of being swept along wherever the tide takes me. Nothing much > shows on the outside - I'm usually seen by others as a calm and > controlled person - such a misjudgment ....that's just the outward > appearance ... earthquakes of emotion and disorderly thoughts on the > inside. > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Do all the Foundations need > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they all automatically > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become > accomplished in..... > > metta, > Christine 14461 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/20/02 9:28:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > --- Howard wrote: > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What *is* unheard sound? To me, all sounds are heard by > some sentient > > being or other (not necessarily me - I'm not a solipsist). The > physicist will > > say that sound is a wave which is the propagation of compaction > and > > rarefaction of molecules. But that is all pa~n~nati, isn't it? > What is the > > paramattha dhamma called a sound, and where is it when not heard? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Howard, > Not necessary to think about sound waves. > I think a careful study of the Abhidhamma texts helps to calrify > this matter. Sound can be produced by citta i.e.cittasamutthana rupa- > (such as vacivinnati -speaking) or it can be produced by another > cause- utu (temperature). Sound is not originated by kamma or ahara > (nutrition) although other types of matter are. > Sotavinnana (hearing consciousness ) can only arise if sound > contacts the earbase - but the converse is not true: > For example, sound may arise anywhere such as a rock falling down a > cliff (it is utu-samutthana -rupa) ; it arises whether it is > experienced or not. > ___________________ > > > > For example, while I am writing this my son just > > > > came in and asked a question. You can't hear these sounds - in > this > > > case called vacivinnati(verbal intimation) but I can assure you > > > there was sound and that indeed I experience sounds everyday. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't doubt it. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Even > > > > though you don't experience those sounds doesn't make them less > real. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Of course. when you hear sounds those are actual sounds > that you hear. > > But when no sentient being hears a sound, where and what do you > mean by a > > 'sound'? > > ========================== > > A sound is a sound, it is not conditioned by the citta that > experiences it - but the converse is true: The citta that > experiences it is conditioned by the sound. > > > > > Metta > Robert > ============================= It seems to me that you are saying that there is some existent thing, out in "the physical world" (which is something not directly known but inferred to include things which sense bases, also in that "world", contact) - something separate from and independent of discernment by a sentient being, and which we call a 'sound'. There is also that "content of consciousness", that arammana, which we also call a 'sound', *resulting* from contact of the ear base with that "thing in the world" we call a sound. There seems to be an "external sound", contact with which produces the "internal sound" that is heard, which is the arammana to our auditory citta. This is the standard dualist view, I think, of how things are. The phenomenalist view, however, is that it is only what I call the "internal sounds" that are ever directly known or knowable, and the radical phenomenalist view adds that what is in principle unknowable, is pragmatically nonexistent. The worldling phenomenalist and the worldling "realist" have the same experiences, but interpret them differently, with the phenomenalist more readily applying Occam's razor, being less willing to posit the existence of unknowable things. What is the rupa of sound in Abhidhamma? Is it an unknown external something, existing independently of citta, or is it the "internal" sound that is heard? (Or are they somehow the same?) BTW, you write that the sound conditions the citta, but not vice-versa, because sound can exist without being experienced. In that regard, how do you understand the mutual conditionality between vi~n~nana and namarupa in some formulations of patticasamupada? I take namarupa as consisting of the body of mental and physical phenomena that can serve as objects for consciousness, i.e., to be "the all". Do you, instead, take 'namarupa' to refer to the mind-enlivened body, the physical body of a living being, and interpret paticcasamupada only in the 3-lifetime sense? (I do recognize that as a correct interpretation, just not the only correct one.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14462 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi, Victor (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/20/02 9:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Hi Christine, > > [snip] > Christine: How to separate Feelings from Emotions? > > Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by > feelings and emotions. > > Christine: Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? > > Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? > > Christine: Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to > the exclusion of all others? > > Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of > all others? > > Christine: Or do they all automatically intermingle? > > > Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job > easier. Wouldn't it? > > > Christine: Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become > accomplished in..... > > Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Regards, > Victor > ============================ I would suppose that one argument in favor of "making do" with just one foundation of mindfulness is that once one sees directly and clearly the impemanence, unsatisfactoriness, and impersonality and insubstantiality of even one category of dhammas, the door to the deathless may be opened. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] ignorance Hi Frank, thank you for the reminder that ignorance is a problem all the time. Countless moments of neutral feeling, and we do not know it, ignorance again. Nina. Craving > and aversion are more immediate "causes" that are > further down the chain, and because their > disadvantages are more easily seen they are the focus > of more discussion, but ignorance (of 4NT) is the root > cause. Ignorance is not just a problem when craving > and hatred arise. Ignorance (for the nonarhat)is a > problem all the time, even when neutral feeling is > predominant. 14464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 0:47am Subject: sense-door and mind-door Dear Larry, I want to add something to what I wrote. I quote again: I add: When you experience visible object through the mind-door it is as if you are still seeing through eyesense. That is what I understood from A. Sujin's explanations. For us, everything is vague, that is natural. We cannot distinguish the sense-door process from the mind-door process, but panna that has become keener and sharper is able to do this, by means of awareness over and over again of the nama and rupa that appears one at a time through one of the six doors. It is not a matter of being in time or being fast enough, it is a matter of panna that has been developed to the first stage of vipassana ~naa.na. At that moment there is no doubt about what the mind-door process is and the difference between the characteristics of nama and rupa is clearly distinguished, and this occurs in a mind-door process. A. Sujin explained: just now for us it is as if there is no mind-door process, the mind-door is hidden by the sense-doors. There is seeing , then hearing, and it seems that there is no mind-door process in between. At the moment of vipassana ~naa.na nama and rupa appear through the mind-door. I find this subject very difficult and I am always afraid to say too much. But people read about stages of insight in the Visuddhimagga and then they wonder what these are. Best wishes from Nina. 14465 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-door and mind-door Hi, Nina - Just one comment (a question, rather) inserted in the middle of your post. In a message dated 7/20/02 12:49:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Dear Larry, I want to add something to what I wrote. I quote again: the mind-door process follows upon a sense-door process, say, eye-door > process, the visible object has only just fallen away when it is > experienced > by cittas of the mind-door process. Rupa does not last longer than 17 > moments of cittas, thus, it has fallen away when the succeeding mind-door > process begins. Someone asked A. Sujin whether visible object experienced > through the mind-door is the same as visible object experienced through the > eye-door, and she said, exactly the same. Just because of the speed of the > cittas that succeed one another.> > > I add: When you experience visible object through the mind-door it is as if > you are still seeing through eyesense. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Would that "seeing" of the visible object through the mind-door amount to what might be called the experiencing of a "fresh memory" (a faithful replica) of the just fallen-away image? ----------------------------------------------------- That is what I understood from A.> > Sujin's explanations. For us, everything is vague, that is natural. We > cannot distinguish the sense-door process from the mind-door process, but > panna that has become keener and sharper is able to do this, by means of > awareness over and over again of the nama and rupa that appears one at a > time through one of the six doors. It is not a matter of being in time or > being fast enough, it is a matter of panna that has been developed to the > first stage of vipassana ~naa.na. At that moment there is no doubt about > what the mind-door process is and the difference between the > characteristics > of nama and rupa is clearly distinguished, and this occurs in a mind-door > process. > A. Sujin explained: just now for us it is as if there is no mind-door > process, the mind-door is hidden by the sense-doors. There is seeing , then > hearing, and it seems that there is no mind-door process in between. At the > moment of vipassana ~naa.na nama and rupa appear through the mind-door. I > find this subject very difficult and I am always afraid to say too much. > But > people read about stages of insight in the Visuddhimagga and then they > wonder what these are. > Best wishes from Nina. > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14466 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? The way I see it, the 3 types of feeling are extremely brief moments, whereas emotions are a complex combination of vedana, perceptions, craving, views. For the emotion to sustain itself, and appear to be a real solid entity, in my case at least it only happens when I also have solidified misguided views reinforced (with unwise attention) over time with its own momentum. However, I discovered that if I start being mindful of the erroneous perceptions in the emotion, the subtle and not so subtle cravings to experience a certain way and for the world to accomodate my wishes, mindfully chipping away at my misguided views, then the emotion starts losing its solidity, and eventually the emotion is no longer a solid singular entity, but just a flux of unstable conditioned moments. Even while in the midst of experiencing an intense emotion which feels so real, one can definitely discern changes in magnitude, moments of absence (of that emotion), and eventual dissipation. > Do all the > Foundations need > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like > the breath, be > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they > all automatically > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a > big job to become > accomplished in..... > There's no hard and fast rules. I think it's a good idea to have some level of competency in all four foundations, but the best answer for you will require your own experiments with all 4. Keep plugging away Chris, enlightenment isn't all fun and games. We all have times when perceived lack of progress invades our mindfulness. :-) -fk 14467 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:19am Subject: phenominalism Dear Kom, Howard, Robert and Nina, To my mind this issue revolves around the reality status (validity?) of concepts. This is a difficult question and, for me, unresolved. Be that as it may, and taking the usual view of 'concept', I don't believe there is such a category as 'pure experience' or 'pure knowledge' in the sense of experience of paramattha dhammas without concepts of any kind. In the Satipatthana Sutta and the jhana formula there is clearly the suggestion of a diminution and eventual cessation (in jhana) of discursive thinking but it seems to me as concept ceases, paramattha dhammas also cease. Even if we say "under the microscope" there can be experience without concept, is this really knowledge or panna? Looking at the Kalakarama Sutta, we could ask what disappears when dis-illusionment arises? I would say what disappears is the magic, not concepts. Magic could be regarded as lobha (a paramattha dhamma) or avijja (mis-understanding). Can there be panna without concept? One area that we haven't discussed is the status of the subject. Does subject = self, no matter how short lived? I think phenominalism could be defined as an attempt to describe experience after the realization of anatta. How do you see this? Larry 14468 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] phenominalism Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/20/02 2:19:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Kom, Howard, Robert and Nina, > > To my mind this issue revolves around the reality status (validity?) of > concepts. This is a difficult question and, for me, unresolved. Be that > as it may, and taking the usual view of 'concept', I don't believe there > is such a category as 'pure experience' or 'pure knowledge' in the sense > of experience of paramattha dhammas without concepts of any kind. In the > Satipatthana Sutta and the jhana formula there is clearly the suggestion > of a diminution and eventual cessation (in jhana) of discursive thinking > but it seems to me as concept ceases, paramattha dhammas also cease. > Even if we say "under the microscope" there can be experience without > concept, is this really knowledge or panna? > > Looking at the Kalakarama Sutta, we could ask what disappears when > dis-illusionment arises? I would say what disappears is the magic, not > concepts. Magic could be regarded as lobha (a paramattha dhamma) or > avijja (mis-understanding). Can there be panna without concept? > > One area that we haven't discussed is the status of the subject. Does > subject = self, no matter how short lived? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say "no". The subject in any subject-object experience is the knowing aspect, whereas the object is the known aspect. Both are conditioned and empty of self, as is the entire experiential event. A 'self' is an unchanging essence, a core, is unconditioned and has an intrinsic identity independent of all else. ----------------------------------------------- > > I think phenominalism could be defined as an attempt to describe > experience after the realization of anatta. How do you see this? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this would be to make too much of phenomenalism. ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14469 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] sense-door and mind-door Nina, thanks for the additional comments and your careful considertions. The more I read on this, the better sense I get of anatta due to looseness. That's sort of a funny thing to say, but it kind of makes sense. It counters a simplistic mechanical way of understanding things. best wishes, Larry 14470 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] phenominalism Hi Howard, thanks for your in-put, sorry for misspelling phenomenalism. Larry 14471 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:05am Subject: Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything Hi, Robert, Nina, Sarah, Jon and all - The following sutta seems to me to have relevance to our discussions of phenomenalism (and also points out the importance of concentration to practice). I am inserting comments/questions enclosed in braces: ********************************************************************** It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is the foemost in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all things? What is the essence of all things? Where do all things merge? Where do they end? If you are thus questioned, monks, you should reply as follows: "All things are rooted in desire. {Do our desires create birdsounds outside the house, or do they create birdsounds as the content of auditory experience?}. They come to actual existence through attention.{Through *attention*!! Does our attention create external hardness, external sounds, external colors, or does our attention create the content of our experience? Yet it is said here that attention is what brings all things to *actual existence*!}, originate from contact {So, without contact, there is no sound, no color, etc. It is said here that all things originate from contact, that is, they don't exist on their own!}, and converge in feeling. The foremost of all things is concentration {So, concentration is not only important, but is "the foremost of all things."}. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is wisdom, there essence liberation. All things merge in the deathless, and Nibbana is their culmination." ****************************************************** Does not this sutta, plus the Kalakarama Sutta, plus the Bahiya Sutta give some plausibility to the idea that phenomenalism and the Dhamma are, at least, congenial to each other? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14472 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] phenominalism Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > Dear Kom, Howard, Robert and Nina, > > To my mind this issue revolves around the reality > status (validity?) of > concepts. This is a difficult question and, for > me, unresolved. Be that > as it may, and taking the usual view of > 'concept', I don't believe there > is such a category as 'pure experience' or 'pure > knowledge' in the sense > of experience of paramattha dhammas without > concepts of any kind. In the normal everyday experience, we experience both paramatha dhamma and concepts. For all the "significant" event, an event that we "consciously" cognize (without the panna), it is certain that both paramatha and concepts (different moments) are experienced in that event. For example, have you ever seen something that you already know, but you don't recognize what it is? Like, when we are looking for something, it's right in front of us, we see it, but we still don't know what it is. The paramatha experience has already occured, and so is some conceptual experiences (like shape), but the concept hasn't been taken to the point where you would recognize that it is what you are looking for. Given how blindlingly fast the mind is, I wouldn't be surprised that in everyday life, some of the time, the mind only experiences the paramatha characteristics that aren't taken into concepts. > In the > Satipatthana Sutta and the jhana formula there is > clearly the suggestion > of a diminution and eventual cessation (in jhana) > of discursive thinking > but it seems to me as concept ceases, paramattha > dhammas also cease. I think you may want to be careful of interpreting that example. The discursive thinking is characterized as Vitakka and Vicara, which are cetasikas, realities. At the 2nd Jhana and above, vitakka and vicara are suppressed even if the mind (the jhana) continues rising and falling away. The rupa jhana cittas have concepts as the object, even if there is no vitakka and vicara. > Even if we say "under the microscope" there can > be experience without > concept, is this really knowledge or panna? It is knowledge or panna only when there is panna arising to cognize it. The mind constantly cognizes paramatha dhamma (although as not what it really is, without panna) regardless of whether or not panna arises. You knew the differences betwen hard and soft even before you listen to the Buddha's dhamma, didn't you? You knew the differences because the characteristics (not the same way that they would appear to satipatthana) appeared to you. > > Looking at the Kalakarama Sutta, we could ask > what disappears when > dis-illusionment arises? I would say what > disappears is the magic, not > concepts. Magic could be regarded as lobha (a > paramattha dhamma) or > avijja (mis-understanding). Can there be panna > without concept? One aspect that I think some people are mistaken of vipassana development is that, when there is sati, as in satipatthana, concepts cease to appear [which is incorrect]. As I understand it, sati and panna arise in the stream of cittas, in the way they haven't before hearing the dhamma, to cognize the characteristics of the dhamma. It doesn't stop the conceptualization of the dhamma. If it does, then an arahant, including the buddha, who has perfect sati, would not recognize people, animals, trees, houses, etc. > > One area that we haven't discussed is the status > of the subject. Does > subject = self, no matter how short lived? > When there is a true and full realization of the distinction of nama and rupa, we will have no doubt that nama (the cognition) is also dhamma and non-self, the same as rupa (the non-cognition), although they have characteristics that are very different from each other. kom 14473 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 9:34am Subject: Re: Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything -- Dear Howard, I think your takes on phenomenalism are relevant and close to what the Abhidhamma says: close but not perfect. I think the Buddha praised all types of wisdom - whether direct or inferential. And even understanding the concepts of Dhamma has to be with wisdom of, at first a conceptual nature. Even Bahiya had to understand by means of thinking what the buddha said . And we just do not live in a world without concepts , we cannot. Some concepts are right, some are wrong; but either way I think what is needed is not to try to become one who experiences only direct realities, and has no conceptual understanding - but to know clearly the difference between concept and reality. BTW a friend in thailand who has been studying Abhidhamma for over 20 years also greatly stresses direct knowing in a way reminicent of phenomenalism - so I have had similar discussions in the past. Best wishes Robert - Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert, Nina, Sarah, Jon and all - > > The following sutta seems to me to have relevance to our discussions > of phenomenalism (and also points out the importance of concentration to > practice). I am inserting comments/questions enclosed in braces: > ********************************************************************* * > It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion > might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual > existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is the foemost > in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all things? What > is the essence of > ****************************************************** > Does not this sutta, plus the Kalakarama Sutta, plus the Bahiya Sutta > give some plausibility to the idea that phenomenalism and the Dhamma are, at > least, congenial to each other? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 14474 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything Hi, Robert - I completely agree with the importance of concepts. We could not function without them. We couldn't learn the Dhamma without them. They serve as mental shorthand for extraordinarily complex packages of interrelated dhammas. I don't mean in any way to denigrate conceptual knowledge and understanding. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/20/02 9:35:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > > Dear Howard, > I think your takes on phenomenalism are relevant and close to what > the Abhidhamma says: close but not perfect. I think the Buddha > praised all types of wisdom - whether direct or inferential. And > even understanding the concepts of Dhamma has to be with wisdom of, > at first a conceptual nature. Even Bahiya had to understand by means > of thinking what the buddha said . And we just do not live in a > world without concepts , we cannot. Some concepts are right, some > are wrong; but either way I think what is needed is not to try to > become one who experiences only direct realities, and has no > conceptual understanding - but to know clearly the difference > between concept and reality. > BTW a friend in thailand who has been studying Abhidhamma for over > 20 years also greatly stresses direct knowing in a way reminicent of > phenomenalism - so I have had similar discussions in the past. > Best wishes > Robert > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14475 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism Here is my two cents worth: Why let this argument distract us from the more important need to practice the Dhamma? I was a strict vegan, then lapsed to vegetarianism. I got very ill overseas. My immune system was compromised. I had to take meat to get a better and goodly amount of amino acids. I used to be rigid about vegetarianism. This was wrong. I still prefer to be vegetarian, but I am ever mindful and grateful for those sentient beings that have been used to provide me sustenance for this body to be able to sustain its energy for Dhamma and service to humanity. Instead of beating ourselves up about the issue --- just be mindful --- be grateful that you have enough and a wide variety to eat for bodily support. I think back to my time in the Kingdom of Nepal where I saw mothers and children wondering if they would even have a meal that day. The Right View does not demand vegetarianism. No doubt, it is a healthier choice --- in some cases. Right View calls us to deeper awareness of the problems here in Samsara. What Right View will insist upon is that we apply the Dhamma practically to our daily lives --- with mindfulness and skillfulness --- and the practice is ever working on those very two things. Well, that is probably ninety-nine cents worth! In the Dynamic Buddhadhamma, VBD 14476 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism -- Dear Venerable, That was a few hundred dollars worth, IMHO - Thanks for a nicely balanced perspective. Metta Robert - "Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Here is my two cents worth: > > Why let this argument distract us from the more important need to practice > the Dhamma? > > I was a strict vegan, then lapsed to vegetarianism. > > I got very ill overseas. My immune system was compromised. > > I had to take meat to get a better and goodly amount of amino acids. > > I used to be rigid about vegetarianism. This was wrong. > > I still prefer to be vegetarian, but I am ever mindful and grateful for > those sentient beings that have been used to provide me sustenance for this > body to be able to sustain its energy for Dhamma and service to humanity. > > Instead of beating ourselves up about the issue --- just be mindful --- be > grateful that you have enough and a wide variety to eat for bodily support. > I think back to my time in the Kingdom of Nepal where I saw mothers and > children wondering if they would even have a meal that day. > > The Right View does not demand vegetarianism. No doubt, it is a healthier > choice --- in some cases. Right View calls us to deeper awareness of the > problems here in Samsara. What Right View will insist upon is that we apply > the Dhamma practically to our daily lives --- with mindfulness and > skillfulness --- and the practice is ever working on those very two things. > > Well, that is probably ninety-nine cents worth! > > In the Dynamic Buddhadhamma, > > VBD 14477 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything This Sutta reminds me of my college Greek philosophy class where I was trying to grasp the idea that a table was not a table... But is this line of questioning really skillful? Does it matter if something exists and our bodies don't contact it? Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard [mailto:Howard] > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 5:06 PM > Subject: [dsg] Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything > > > Hi, Robert, Nina, Sarah, Jon and all - > > The following sutta seems to me to have relevance to our > discussions > of phenomenalism (and also points out the importance of concentration to > practice). I am inserting comments/questions enclosed in braces: > ********************************************************************** > It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion > might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual > existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is > the foemost > in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all > things? What > is the essence of all things? Where do all things merge? Where do > they end? > If you are thus questioned, monks, you should reply as > follows: "All > things are rooted in desire. {Do our desires create birdsounds > outside the > house, or do they create birdsounds as the content of auditory > experience?}. > They come to actual existence through attention.{Through > *attention*!! Does > our attention create external hardness, external sounds, external > colors, or > does our attention create the content of our experience? Yet it > is said here > that attention is what brings all things to *actual existence*!}, > originate > from contact {So, without contact, there is no sound, no color, > etc. It is > said here that all things originate from contact, that is, they > don't exist > on their own!}, and converge in feeling. The foremost of all things is > concentration {So, concentration is not only important, but is > "the foremost > of all things."}. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is > wisdom, there essence liberation. All things merge in the deathless, and > Nibbana is their culmination." > ****************************************************** > Does not this sutta, plus the Kalakarama Sutta, plus the > Bahiya Sutta > give some plausibility to the idea that phenomenalism and the > Dhamma are, at > least, congenial to each other? > > With metta, > Howard 14478 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anguttara X, 58: The Roots of Everything Hi, Ruth - In a message dated 7/21/02 8:19:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ruth writes: > > This Sutta reminds me of my college Greek philosophy class where I was > trying to grasp the idea that a table was not a table... But is this line > of questioning really skillful? Does it matter if something exists and our > bodies don't contact it? > > Ruth > ============================= I would say that how things are, whether they exist on their own or merely seem to, is relevant to the matter of what, if anything, we grasp at. But, in any case, this is only one piece of the puzzle, and, though I find this matter important and useful, it need be of no concern to anyone without particular interest in it. (Incidentally, Bhikkhu ~Nanananda states that there is some speculation that the Kalakarama Sutta, an untypically philosophical teaching, was taught to the Greeks at one point!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14479 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, I would like to bring the following passage to attention: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Regards, Victor --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Victor (and Christine) - > > In a message dated 7/20/02 9:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: > > > > > > Hi Christine, > > > > [snip] > > Christine: How to separate Feelings from Emotions? > > > > Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by > > feelings and emotions. > > > > Christine: Do all the Foundations need to be practiced? > > > > Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? > > > > Christine: Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to > > the exclusion of all others? > > > > Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of > > all others? > > > > Christine: Or do they all automatically intermingle? > > > > > > Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job > > easier. Wouldn't it? > > > > > > Christine: Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become > > accomplished in..... > > > > Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > > > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > ============================ > I would suppose that one argument in favor of "making do" with just > one foundation of mindfulness is that once one sees directly and clearly the > impemanence, unsatisfactoriness, and impersonality and insubstantiality of > even one category of dhammas, the door to the deathless may be opened. > > With metta, > Howard 14480 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions Hi, Victor and all - In a message dated 7/21/02 9:14:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, > > I would like to bring the following passage to attention: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > Regards, > Victor > > =========================== Yes, indeed. The Buddha gave anapanasati as a complete meditative discipline and as an implementation of the four foundations of mindfuness, and, purportedly, it was the Buddha's own primary practice. It happens to be my main form of meditation, as it is, I suppose, for most Buddhists. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:20pm Subject: Equanimity. Dear Rob M, The other post was too long. I could add something on Tatramajjhattata, which can be developed as a perfection, the perfection of equanimity. I quote now part of my "Perfections": Nina. 14482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 6 Pairs Dear Rob M, Rob K, christine and all, I am joining Rob K in his appreciation of your examples. You have so much patience and good will to help, Rob M. I like the additional remarks of Rob K, a good reminder: op 20-07-2002 15:34 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op robertk: Rob K: I like it very much Rob. I think everyone will get the picture - > > Perhaps you were just a tad hard on poor Mr. A and a bit soft on mr. > B. I think most of us, most of the time alternate bettwen the two . > Dhamma talks lasts a long time - during it we could have been mr. A > and then mr. B in succession several times; not to mention > afterwards. It can be hard to know whether the warm feelings are > with lobha or kusala. N:It is as if there are two different personalities in ourselves, and depending on conditions one emerges or the other emerges. When dosa is so strong and I lose patience, I may even shout. How harsh, rigid, unwieldy is the citta. The next moment conditions may have changed, and there is an opportunity for helping, doing something for someone else. The citta is gentle, tender, workable, pliant, sincere to perform kusala, to forgive, to give, to help, to express appreciation of someone else's kusala. You cannot do that when the citta is harsh and rigid. The Buddha taught the details about citta, cetasika and rupa so that we realize: there is no I who can control, there are only phenomena arising because of different conditions. Defilements cannot be eradicated when we still cling to the idea of self. I do not know why there are six pairs, and no pairs for the other good qualities. But the main thing is understanding how many conditions have to cooperate so that kusala citta can arise. The examples will help people, but we should not see them in isolation. They are all together for each kind of kusala. But sati cannot be lacking, without sati we are forgetful of kusala. Right understanding of nama and rupa as they appear through six doors is the most important condition to further develop all kinds of kusala. I like Chistine's post on metta and will come back to that later. Christine, think of A. and B. in one person: there are confusing emotions and sensations, at another moment you are so helpful and full of goodwill and beneficience. Know it all depends on different conditions, we can learn from these different moments. We can learn from unpleasant events and our bad reactions to these. So, we should have no regret, not worry about lack of progress, but just continue on on the Way the Buddha taught. Ups and downs. Soon you will meet Sarah and Jon, and you will see, to be with good friends in Dhamma is helpful for confidence, saddha. I liked the monk's remark Rob M mentioned, about not just radiating metta, but taking action. A wise monk. Now more examples of the six pairs. > "robmoult" wrote: >>> I am 80% sure of the following (I really added a lot of my own >> interpretations - perhaps too much). I am hoping that the DSG can: >> - Correct any misinterpretations >> - Add new points using the same format to further clarify the >> differences in mental states between Mr. A and Mr. B. >> >> Six Pairs of Kusala Cetasikas >> >> Mr. A and Mr. B went to a Dhamma talk. After the Dhamma talk, Mr. > A >> said, "I enjoyed listening to the Dhamma talk". Mr. B said, "I >> listened to the Dhamma talk with joy." Let us consider the >> difference in the mental states between Mr. A (akusala, with > lobha) >> and Mr. B (kusala). >RRob M: Citta-passaddhi and Kaya-passaddhi (Tranquility of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A remembers the amusing stories from the Dhamma talk. His >> pleasant feeling is mixed with excitement and agitation (uddhacca). >> >> Mr. B has a tranquil happiness. He is suffused with a warm feeling >> from being in the presence of something truly beautiful. N: shall we add: Mr. B is patient to listen to the Dhamma so that he will have more understanding of his life. He is not agitated and there is a degree of calm with the kusala citta. He has no anxieties or scruples: do I have enough progress in the Dhamma, because he knows it all depends on conditions. That is why he listened to explanations of cetasikas. He does not forget the goal of the teachings. >> R: Citta-lahuta and Kaya-lahuta (Agility / Lightness / Buoyancy of >> Citta and Cetasikas) >> For Mr. A, the Dhamma talk is finished; "the show is over". There >> are conditions for apathy, sloth and torpor. >> >> Mr. B leaves the Dhamma talk inspired to take positive action. His >> mind is ready to quickly seize an opportunity for kusala actions. N:Yes, quick reactions in the kusala way. If we want to give and we delay this, the other person may have died before we have the chance. A. Sujin always reminds us: do not delay kusala. No hesitation, do it at once, seize the opportunity. That is also the role of sati: to take the oportunity of kusala, not let it go by. When traveling in India with my friends from Thailand I admired their quick reactions to help so much. They were so efficient to quickly find the right means to help: a cushion, a medicine, something to eat at the right time. I am often slow in my reactions, often kusala is in my case sasankharika, induced or prompted. My husband, Lodewijk, is a good prompter. R: Citta-muduta and Kaya-muduta (Elasticity / Pliancy of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A focuses on his enjoyment of the experience. His focus in not >> on himself, not on the Dhamma. There is a strong sense of mana >> (conceit). >> >> Mr. B focuses on the application of the Dhamma. His mind is >> naturally spreading the Dhamma lessons learned to many aspects of >> his life. N: Pliancy and resilience of mind: to adapt yourself quickly in the wholesome way when there are contrary events, such as a traffic jam. it conditions more patience. Openmindedness to what is right, no mental rigidity and conceit. >> R: Citta-kammannata and Kaya-kammannata (Adaptability / Wieldiness / >> Workableness of Citta and Cetasikas) >> Though Mr. A enjoyed the Dhamma talk overall, his "review" would > say >> that there were more "fun parts" (lobha) than "boring parts" > (dosa). >> His mind classifies portions of the talk as either good or bad. He >> rigidly classifies portions of the talk into one of two categories >> thereby making his mind less workable. >> >> Mr. B leaves the talk with an even balance of muduta (pliancy); > not >> too little so as to resist changing his mind, not too much so as > to >> have the impressions of the Dhamma overwritten by the next >> sensation. N: They condition patience when listening to the Dhamma and to develop understanding. There is no clinging to immediate result and over enthusiasm. That "too much" is not balanced, will lead to disappointment and depression. >> R: Citta-pagunnata and Kaya-pagunnata (Proficiency of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A is now feeling dukkha. He misses the fun experience of the >> Dhamma talk. His mental state is "sickly". >> >> Mr. B has performed a kusala action by listening to the Dhamma > talk >> and he is aware of this fact. This awareness gives his mental > state >> confidence and strength. N: It helps you to find the right solution when there are difficult circumstances. Or to know in what way one can help in the most efficient way. A. Sujin is such an example for me. She finds solutions in a way that everybody is satisfied. Christine is very efficient in helping, and how quickly she reacts. People need some info and there she comes with all the links that are needed. There are many sobhana cetasikas assisting her. >> R: Cittujjukata and Kayujjukata (Rectitude / Uprightness of Citta and >> Cetasikas) >> Mr. A remembers who saw him attend the Dhamma talk and is pleased >> that he will be considered by others to be religiously minded. > There >> is a superficial hypocrisy in his mental state. >> >> Mr. B is feeling a spontaneous love of the Dhamma. His intention / >> volition (cetana) is pure. As it is cetana that determines the > moral >> quality of any action, the kammic effect of attending the Dhamma >> talk for Mr. B will be significantly greater than the kammic > effect >> for Mr. A. N: uprightness: sincerity as to kusala. You will not just say you will help someone, but also do it. You put your good intentions into actions. you do not expect any reward for yourself, such as praise, admiration, or even appreciation of what you are doing. How difficult. I may do something for someone else, go out of my way, and he may not appreciate it when there are no conditions for appreciation. It is important to understand that not only we ourselves but also others are just: citta, cetasika and rupa, arising because of the appropriate conditions. We should be openminded and correct whatever is wrong in our practice. Without knowing it we may still select the wholesome dhammas as objects of understanding, and close our eyes for the akusala dhammas we would rather not have. With appreciation, and wishing you success, Nina. 14483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:20pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3 Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3. We read in the Commentary: The ascetic Akitti said, ³Sakka, lord of the devas, you have offered me a boon. People who have children, a wife, possessions and all kinds of pleasant things, are attached to them, even though their attachment does not cause any harm. However, I wish to be free from all degrees of attachment to such things. That is the boon I would like to have.² This shows that he had a precise understanding of his cittas: he did not wish to have attachment even if it would not cause any harm. Someone who has no firm determination in the development of the perfections may believe that attachment makes life comfortable and pleasant, and that, so long as attachment does not cause any harm, there is no danger in it. However, Akitti wanted to be free from all attachment. This is the steadfastness in kusala that is of the degree of a perfection. We read: Thereupon Sakka said, ³ You have well spoken, Kassapa. What else do you wish for?² Do we wish for a boon that will be a condition for kusala to become more steadfast, just as in the case of Akitti? What he just asked was not sufficient yet. The following boon that the ascetic Akitti wished for shows again the meaning of kusala to the degree of a perfection. We read that Akitti said: ³Sakka, the lord of all devas has offered me a boon. Lands, goods and gold, cows, horses, slaves and relatives decay and pass away. May I not have such unsatisfactoriness.² The loss of possessions is akusala vipåka, the result of akusala kamma that has been performed by oneself. There will not be such loss if one does not commit akusala kamma. We read that Akitti asked as a boon: ³May there be not any akusala kamma that could cause such loss.² Sakka said, ³Kassapa, what else do you wish?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³Please give me this boon: may I not see or hear a fool nor be in his company, and may I not like to converse with him.² Sakka asked, ³What is the reason Kassapa, that you do not like fools nor wish to see them?² If we wish to develop the perfection of renunciation we should consider this passage. If we associate with fools we cannot develop renunciation. The perfections are interrelated and from the beginning we should consider all of them. We read: The ascetic Akitti said, ³Fools advise to do what is improper, they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks; it is difficult to advise them to perform good deeds. When someone speaks to them in a wholesome way, hoping that they will become righteous, they retort with anger. Fools do not know the rules of right conduct (vinaya). It is beneficial not to see fools.² 14484 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 982 Hi, Christine, Am behind, as usual, so please forgive the late reply to your query. The PTS dictionary (p 719) defines the supanna as: "Fairwing", a kind of fairy bird, a mythical creature (cp. garula((garuda??)), imagined as winged, considered as foe to the nagas. The rest are textual references. However, there is no clue why this would be considered a desirable birth. Sorry I can't help you further. metta, Betty _______________________ > Hi All, > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company > of these egg-born supannas? > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > metta, > Christine > > > > > --- > Dear Christine, > The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we > cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful > birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like > creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as > one of these, but some people may wish to because of the supernormal > powers that these beings are said to have. > As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that > those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth. > Robert > 14485 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism Hi Robert, You are very welcome. It is a matter of really practicing Dhamma and whether or not one can "experience" just how pragmatic the Dhamma is in our lives... ...or how complicated we make it. Balance is very important --- and it requires practice, practice. practice. Metta cittena, Dhammapiyo Bhante ----- Original Message ----- From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 6:07 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism > -- > Dear Venerable, > That was a few hundred dollars worth, IMHO - > Thanks for a nicely balanced perspective. > Metta > Robert > - "Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > wrote: > > Here is my two cents worth: > > > > Why let this argument distract us from the more important need to > practice > > the Dhamma? > > > > I was a strict vegan, then lapsed to vegetarianism. > > > > I got very ill overseas. My immune system was compromised. > > > > I had to take meat to get a better and goodly amount of amino > acids. > > > > I used to be rigid about vegetarianism. This was wrong. > > > > I still prefer to be vegetarian, but I am ever mindful and > grateful for > > those sentient beings that have been used to provide me sustenance > for this > > body to be able to sustain its energy for Dhamma and service to > humanity. > > > > Instead of beating ourselves up about the issue --- just be > mindful --- be > > grateful that you have enough and a wide variety to eat for bodily > support. > > I think back to my time in the Kingdom of Nepal where I saw > mothers and > > children wondering if they would even have a meal that day. > > > > The Right View does not demand vegetarianism. No doubt, it is a > healthier > > choice --- in some cases. Right View calls us to deeper awareness > of the > > problems here in Samsara. What Right View will insist upon is that > we apply > > the Dhamma practically to our daily lives --- with mindfulness and > > skillfulness --- and the practice is ever working on those very > two things. > > > > Well, that is probably ninety-nine cents worth! > > > > In the Dynamic Buddhadhamma, > > > > VBD 14486 From: Purnomo . Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vegetarianism Hi Rob, you are true. I am mistake use 'human'. And I have got a joke. If you eat meat then you are Buddha's follower If you don't(vegetarian) then you are Devadatta's follower ha..ha..ha.. happy, purnomo 14487 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Hi Victor, Reply interspersed below. "How to separate Feelings from Emotions?" Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by feelings and emotions. >>>>>Christine: What my understanding is of what the Buddha means by feelings and emotions, I have gained from readings such as "Contemplation of Feelings" by Nyanaponika Thera. Excerpt" One may now appreciate the significance of the Buddha's terse saying that 'all things converge on feelings.' The central position of feeling in human life also makes it clear why the Buddha included feelings as a separate category among the five constituent aggregates of personality (pancakkhandha) and as a separate mode of contemplation in the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana)." and "In precise pinpointing of mental states undertaken in Buddhist psychology, feeling (vedana) is understood as the bare sensation experienced as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral (indifferent). It is distinguished from emotion, a more complex phenomenon which arises from the basic feeling, but adds to it various overlays of an evaluative, volitional and cognitive character." "Do all the Foundations need to be practiced?" Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? >>>>Christine: Not sure. DO all of them need to be developed? "Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the exclusion of all others?" Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of all others? >>>>Christine: Not sure. Most Western Buddhists sit and watch the breath, a small part of one Foundation, and this seems to be considered sufficient. "Or do they automatically intermingle?" Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job easier. Wouldn't it? >>>>Christine: Not sure ... and I asked first. :) Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished in .... Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? >>>>Christine: Not sure. I'm trying to find out the totality of what needs to be done. metta, Christine 14488 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Thanks for this Victor, Does this mean mindfulness of in-and-out breathing is the ONLY way when developed and pursued, that brings the four frames of reference to their culmination? metta, Christine --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, > > I would like to bring the following passage to attention: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Victor (and Christine) - > > > > In a message dated 7/20/02 9:49:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Victor writes: 14489 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Frank Hi Frank, and All, Thanks for sharing this, it, and your support and encouragement, are much appreciated. What you describe is exactly how things 'feel' to me and, I suspect, for the same reasons. And so ... it would stand to reason that your 'solution' of being mindful of erroneous perceptions in the emotion, and of cravings, would be a practice which could benefit me in bringing recognition of the process, a lessening of clinging and 'a deeper satisfaction then is possible when the mind is overrun by tempestuous emotions'. (Nyanaponika) Some verses below for you Frank - I think the last three lines are identical to the ones in the verses you quoted a while ago. Just as in the sky above winds of various kinds are blowing: Coming from the east or west, blowing from the north or south, Some carry dust and others not, cold are some and others hot, Some are fierce and others mild -- their blowing is so different. So also in this body here, feelings of different kind arise: The pleasant feelings and the painful and the neutral ones. But if a monk is ardent and does not neglect To practice mindfulness and comprehension clear, The nature of all feelings will he understand, And having penetrated them, he will be taint-free in this very life. Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways, When once his life-span ends, his body breaks, All measure and concept he has transcended. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sam/sn36-12.htm Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.12 'Akasa Sutta' In the Sky (1) --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Chris, > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? > The way I see it, the 3 types of feeling are > extremely brief moments, whereas emotions are a > complex combination of vedana, perceptions, craving, > views. For the emotion to sustain itself, and appear > to be a real solid entity, in my case at least it only > happens when I also have solidified misguided views > reinforced (with unwise attention) over time with its > own momentum. However, I discovered that if I start > being mindful of the erroneous perceptions in the > emotion, the subtle and not so subtle cravings to > experience a certain way and for the world to > accomodate my wishes, mindfully chipping away at my > misguided views, then the emotion starts losing its > solidity, and eventually the emotion is no longer a > solid singular entity, but just a flux of unstable > conditioned moments. Even while in the midst of > experiencing an intense emotion which feels so real, > one can definitely discern changes in magnitude, > moments of absence (of that emotion), and eventual > dissipation. > > > Do all the > > Foundations need > > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like > > the breath, be > > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they > > all automatically > > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a > > big job to become > > accomplished in..... > > > > There's no hard and fast rules. I think it's a good > idea to have some level of competency in all four > foundations, but the best answer for you will require > your own experiments with all 4. Keep plugging away > Chris, enlightenment isn't all fun and games. We all > have times when perceived lack of progress invades our > mindfulness. :-) > > -fk 14490 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 5:01pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Rob M, and All, Thanks Rob - I learn a lot from your posts. Your discussion of Sati has been really helpful - I'm sure it is often mentioned on list and in the Useful Posts - but it is not until something becomes a difficulty that relevant information is 'seen afresh', and you have written about it in a way that I can understand. I think I suffer from 'self taught internet-itis' whereby my understanding of Buddha's Teaching has been stored in a thousand unrelated compartments, and there has been little integration of the separate topics in the separate compartments. I should have 'known' about vedana, mental formations, and craving from my readings on Paticcasamupadda. There is so much to learn in these early years, so much effort going into intellectual understanding, that there is a danger that my gathering of information will blot out direct practice. You make a good point about not confusing the non-technical sense of the word 'mindfulness', and to only use it in connection with its specific meaning. Habitual everyday usage can interfere with clear understanding of the buddhist meaning. Your message didn't generate confusion, rather, it helped very much to clarify things. Rob, I actually don't currently do sitting meditation but your remarks and the remarks of the 'old monk' are pertinent to my practice anyway (awareness of realities as they appear at the different doorways in this moment), and, as you can tell, I am still a novice at this. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I have a slightly different understanding of "feelings". > > In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, we see that there are only three > feelings named, "pleasant, painful or neutral". They also ask us to > differentiate between > > When the Abhidhamma catalogues the cittas, one of the ways of > splitting out the lobha-mula cittas and the beautiful cittas is > according to the associated feeling (pleasant, painful or neutral). > > You can use whichever foundation suits you, but my advice is that > you keep on watching your breath during meditation. Trying to catch > the feeling associated with each citta would be next to impossible > (millions of cittas each microsecond) unless you have already > developed wise attention (yoniso manasikara) as a mental habit. The > Buddha used mindfulness of breath under the Bodhi tree. > > We also need to be careful of the word, "mindfulness". You have used > it in a non-technical sense in your posting, whereas in the Suttas > and in Abhidhamma, "mindfulness" (sati) has a very specific meaning. > The best description of Sati that I have found is in Chapter 13 of > the book, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Here is a link, > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm > > When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting instant > of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and before > you identify it. That is a stage of Sati. Sati is a softly flowing > moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of > reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati > include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial > watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time > awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless > awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation" > > There are three fundamental activities of Sati: > - Sati reminds us what we are supposed to be doing > - Sati sees things as they really are > - Sati sees the deep nature of all phenomena > - Mindfulness is non-forgetful of kusala and keeps us from akusala > > Those who do not know the Dhamma can perform kusala deeds, but our > knowledge of the Dhamma helps us to be mindful of what is kusala and > what is akusala (sharing merit is kusala, killing insects is akusala) > > People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases > after those who have sati > > Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in > conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he > directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on > around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the > development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a > rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes > an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. > > In brief, you can't be "mindful" of emotions because emotions are > concepts and sati works at the pre-conceptual level. You must see > emotions as what they are; things that you add on to cover up > reality. Remember that the emotions are not reality, you have > distorted reality with these emotions because of your past > accumulations. Seeing them for what they are takes their power away. > Maybe not immediately (deeply ingrained), but give it time. > > Christine, I am sorry if my message has generated more confusion. > > I sense a frustration in your message regarding a lack of progress > in your meditation. Let me share with you a personal story. Seven > months ago, I returned to Jakarta. My wife (Indonesian-Chinese) and > I decided to go back to the small Thai Vihara where we were married > twelve years previously. As we sat on the floor, an old monk came in > and sat in front of us. After a brief introduction, he looked me in > the eye and asked, "How is your meditation?" I squirmed. Could he > read my mind? He said, "You will not find anything that you are > looking for. Think of meditation as your duty. Your responsibility > is to sit. Good sitting, bad sitting, it doesn't matter. Your duty > is to sit. When conditions arise, the results will appear. You are > not responsible for the results, you are only responsible for > sitting." > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > "This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for > the > > overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of > pain > > and grief, for reaching the Noble Path, for the realization of > > Nibbana, namely, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness." > > Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 22) > > The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are Contemplation of the Body; > > Contemplation of Feelings; Contemplation of Mind; and > Contemplation > > of Mind Objects. > > Nyanaponika Thera says that it is essential that > > the Contemplation of Feelings should also be remembered and > applied > > in daily life whenever feelings are prone to turn into unwholesome > > emotions. To do this, he says, feelings should be taken up for > > mindful observation when they occur. There should be mindful > > awareness of the feelings when they arise, and one whould clearly > > distinguish them as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral, > > respectively. Then he says mindfulness should be maintained > > throughout the short duration of that specific feeling, down to > its > > cessation. > > 'Short duration' ..... This is where I have a difficulty. Perhaps > it > > is in being mindful and being able to separate the Feelings from > the > > Emotions that I am not succeeding. Perhaps it is because > mindfulness > > is weak ..... I'm definitely not mindful of a short duration of a > > specific feeling, or it's cessation. The one state (emotion), > often > > one I cannot 'name', seems to last for long periods of time.... > There > > doesn't seem much difference between the person called Christine > of > > four years ago (pre-Dhamma days) and now. Still subject to tides > of > > emotion, still don't realise it's happening until minutes, > sometimes > > hours, of being swept along wherever the tide takes me. Nothing > much > > shows on the outside - I'm usually seen by others as a calm and > > controlled person - such a misjudgment ....that's just the outward > > appearance ... earthquakes of emotion and disorderly thoughts on > the > > inside. > > How to separate Feelings from Emotions? Do all the Foundations > need > > to be practiced? Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be > > chosen to the exclusion of all others? Or do they all > automatically > > intermingle? Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to > become > > accomplished in..... > > > > metta, > > Christine 14491 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 982/Betty Hi Betty, Thanks for this information. Kind of you to search for me. I don't know why anyone would desire birth as a Supanna unless, as RobK says, they have certain Powers. 'Fairwing' - I like that name very much - If I ever have another budgerigah, I have a ready-made name! :) metta, Christine --- "Mom Bongkojpriya \(Betty\) Yugala" > Hi, Christine, > Am behind, as usual, so please forgive the late reply to your query. The PTS > dictionary (p 719) defines the supanna as: "Fairwing", a kind of fairy bird, > a mythical creature (cp. garula((garuda??)), imagined as winged, considered > as foe to the nagas. The rest are textual references. However, there is no > clue why this would be considered a desirable birth. Sorry I can't help you > further. > > metta, > Betty > _______________________ > > Hi All, > > > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 > > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas. > > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why > > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu > > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company > > of these egg-born supannas? > > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text > > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon. > > > > metta, > > Christine 14492 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Re: Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3 Dear Nina, Thank you for this wonderful series of posts, 'Perfections". I'm really enjoying them - just short enough to read over a morning cuppa, just enough in them to think about and give the morning a lift. I wonder if you could clarify the meaning for me of what the ascetic Akitti said about Fools ... "they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks" ... Thanks and metta, Christine --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Perfections, Ch 3, no. 3. > We read in the Commentary: > > The ascetic Akitti said, ³Sakka, lord of the devas, you have offered me a > boon. People who have children, a wife, possessions and all kinds of > pleasant things, are attached to them, even though their attachment does not > cause any harm. However, I wish to be free from all degrees of attachment to > such things. That is the boon I would like to have.² > > This shows that he had a precise understanding of his cittas: he did not > wish to have attachment even if it would not cause any harm. Someone who has > no firm determination in the development of the perfections may believe that > attachment makes life comfortable and pleasant, and that, so long as > attachment does not cause any harm, there is no danger in it. However, > Akitti wanted to be free from all attachment. This is the steadfastness in > kusala that is of the degree of a perfection. We read: > > Thereupon Sakka said, ³ You have well spoken, Kassapa. What else do you wish > for?² > > Do we wish for a boon that will be a condition for kusala to become more > steadfast, just as in the case of Akitti? What he just asked was not > sufficient yet. The following boon that the ascetic Akitti wished for shows > again the meaning of kusala to the degree of a perfection. We read that > Akitti said: > > ³Sakka, the lord of all devas has offered me a boon. Lands, goods and gold, > cows, horses, slaves and relatives decay and pass away. May I not have such > unsatisfactoriness.² > > The loss of possessions is akusala vipåka, the result of akusala kamma that > has been performed by oneself. There will not be such loss if one does not > commit akusala kamma. We read that Akitti asked as a boon: > > ³May there be not any akusala kamma that could cause such loss.² > Sakka said, ³Kassapa, what else do you wish?² > The ascetic Akitti said, ³Please give me this boon: may I not see or hear a > fool nor be in his company, and may I not like to converse with him.² > Sakka asked, ³What is the reason Kassapa, that you do not like fools nor > wish to see them?² > > If we wish to develop the perfection of renunciation we should consider this > passage. If we associate with fools we cannot develop renunciation. The > perfections are interrelated and from the beginning we should consider all > of them. We read: > > The ascetic Akitti said, ³Fools advise to do what is improper, they are > likely to take upon themselves undue tasks; it is difficult to advise them > to perform good deeds. When someone speaks to them in a wholesome way, > hoping that they will become righteous, they retort with anger. Fools do not > know the rules of right conduct (vinaya). It is beneficial not to see > fools.² 14493 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 7:48pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Christine, I'm really glad that my messages are helpful. When I am talking directly to a student, I can see in their eyes if I have "lost them". It is tougher using text messages. A couple of things in your message caught my eye. I would like to better understand your approach to Buddhism and the practice. In your library, you probably have many books written to introduce Buddhism to Westerners. Take out a few of them and look at the table of contents. I suspect that many of them will have a structure something like this: Chapter 1: Life of the Buddha Chapter 2: First Noble Truth Chapter 3: Second Noble Truth Chapter 4: Third Noble Truth Chapter 5: Fourth Noble Truth Chapter 6: Eightfold Noble Path Chapter 7: Meditation etc. I believe that introducing Buddhism starting with the Four Noble Truths is not the best approach. Too philosophical. Consider the following quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come to appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths." http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm Paticcasamupadda is pretty philosophical stuff! Let me give an example to illustrate my point. Abhidhamma tells us that dosa is supressed by metta, issa is supressed by mudita and that macchariya is supressed by dana. Supressed, but not uprooted. To uproot dosa, issa and macchariya, we need right understanding. I suggest that it makes sense to try and develop metta, mudita and dana first to supress dosa, issa and macchariya. Once dosa, issa and macchariya have been supressed and the mind is calmed, we can develop right understanding. Right understanding does not come from books, it comes from experience. If we try to develop right understanding first (before developing metta, mudita and dana), we would find that dosa, issa, macchariya and a host of other akusala cetasikas would constantly interfere with our efforts. In my opinion, "practice" is: - Avoid evil (sila / precepts) - Do good (dana) - Purify the mind (meditation) I would like to better understand your practice. You have described it as "awareness of realities as they appear at the different doorways in this moment", but not involving meditation. Given that there are a million cittas every microsecond, how can you accomplish this? I have just reread my message from the beginning. Please understand. I don't mean to be negative or challenge you. I am genuinely interested in understanding more. The stated aim of this study group is to "develop precise understanding of the realities of the present moment." It would appear as though you are aligned and I am confused. Can you (or somebody else) help me understand better? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, and All, > > Thanks Rob - I learn a lot from your posts. Your discussion of Sati > has been really helpful - I'm sure it is often mentioned on list and > in the Useful Posts - but it is not until something becomes a > difficulty that relevant information is 'seen afresh', and you have > written about it in a way that I can understand. I think I suffer > from 'self taught internet-itis' whereby my understanding of Buddha's > Teaching has been stored in a thousand unrelated compartments, and > there has been little integration of the separate topics in the > separate compartments. I should have 'known' about vedana, mental > formations, and craving from my readings on Paticcasamupadda. There > is so much to learn in these early years, so much effort going into > intellectual understanding, that there is a danger that my gathering > of information will blot out direct practice. > You make a good point about not confusing the non-technical sense of > the word 'mindfulness', and to only use it in connection with its > specific meaning. Habitual everyday usage can interfere with clear > understanding of the buddhist meaning. > Your message didn't generate confusion, rather, it helped very much > to clarify things. > Rob, I actually don't currently do sitting meditation but your > remarks and the remarks of the 'old monk' are pertinent to my > practice anyway (awareness of realities as they appear at the > different doorways in this moment), and, as you can tell, I am still > a novice at this. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I have a slightly different understanding of "feelings". > > > > In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, we see that there are only three > > feelings named, "pleasant, painful or neutral". They also ask us to > > differentiate between > > > > When the Abhidhamma catalogues the cittas, one of the ways of > > splitting out the lobha-mula cittas and the beautiful cittas is > > according to the associated feeling (pleasant, painful or neutral). > > > > You can use whichever foundation suits you, but my advice is that > > you keep on watching your breath during meditation. Trying to catch > > the feeling associated with each citta would be next to impossible > > (millions of cittas each microsecond) unless you have already > > developed wise attention (yoniso manasikara) as a mental habit. The > > Buddha used mindfulness of breath under the Bodhi tree. > > > > We also need to be careful of the word, "mindfulness". You have > used > > it in a non-technical sense in your posting, whereas in the Suttas > > and in Abhidhamma, "mindfulness" (sati) has a very specific > meaning. > > The best description of Sati that I have found is in Chapter 13 of > > the book, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Here is a link, > > > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm > > > > When you first become aware of something there is a fleeting > instant > > of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing and > before > > you identify it. That is a stage of Sati. Sati is a softly flowing > > moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of > > reality, not separate from it. Terms used to characterize Sati > > include: "mirror-thought", "non-judgmental observation", "impartial > > watchfulness", "non-conceptual awareness", "present-time > > awareness", "non-egoistic alertness", "goalless > > awareness", "awareness of change" and "participatory observation" > > > > There are three fundamental activities of Sati: > > - Sati reminds us what we are supposed to be doing > > - Sati sees things as they really are > > - Sati sees the deep nature of all phenomena > > - Mindfulness is non-forgetful of kusala and keeps us from akusala > > > > Those who do not know the Dhamma can perform kusala deeds, but our > > knowledge of the Dhamma helps us to be mindful of what is kusala > and > > what is akusala (sharing merit is kusala, killing insects is > akusala) > > > > People who lack sati must chase after Dhamma, but Dhamma chases > > after those who have sati > > > > Sati is different from what is meant by "mindfulness" in > > conventional language. One may think that he is mindful when he > > directs his attention to what he is doing or to what is going on > > around him. That is not the characteristic of sati in the > > development of insight. Sati in vipassana is mindful of a nama or a > > rupa which appears, without there being a thought of self who makes > > an effort or who is directing the attention to an object. > > > > In brief, you can't be "mindful" of emotions because emotions are > > concepts and sati works at the pre-conceptual level. You must see > > emotions as what they are; things that you add on to cover up > > reality. Remember that the emotions are not reality, you have > > distorted reality with these emotions because of your past > > accumulations. Seeing them for what they are takes their power > away. > > Maybe not immediately (deeply ingrained), but give it time. > > > > Christine, I am sorry if my message has generated more confusion. > > > > I sense a frustration in your message regarding a lack of progress > > in your meditation. Let me share with you a personal story. Seven > > months ago, I returned to Jakarta. My wife (Indonesian-Chinese) and > > I decided to go back to the small Thai Vihara where we were married > > twelve years previously. As we sat on the floor, an old monk came > in > > and sat in front of us. After a brief introduction, he looked me in > > the eye and asked, "How is your meditation?" I squirmed. Could he > > read my mind? He said, "You will not find anything that you are > > looking for. Think of meditation as your duty. Your responsibility > > is to sit. Good sitting, bad sitting, it doesn't matter. Your duty > > is to sit. When conditions arise, the results will appear. You are > > not responsible for the results, you are only responsible for > > sitting." > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14494 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Metta in Daily Life Hi All, In my upcoming class, I will be covering Adosa (Metta and Khanti). I will start with some point form notes from Nina's book, "Cetasikas". Next, I will give a summary of Acharya Buddharakkhita's book, "Metta - The Philosophy and Practice of Universal Love". What I have done in the past and will do with this book is to download the entire text and then delete 80% of the words, keeping 80% of the meaning. This is the class handout (my students don't like to read). I then summarize the main points of the handout verbally. Following this, I will hand out a shortened version of the Subhasita- jaya Sutta (debate on the virtue of patience). I suspect that the US response to September 11 will come up as a discussion point. Here is the web-site for the Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn11-005.html I have written the following "Metta in Daily Life" that I would like the DSG to provide suggestions to add / modify / delete. METTA IN DAILY LIFE =================== Nobody needs to be convinced that metta is good; it is obvious. What is not so obvious is how to put metta into practice. Some people believe that if they sit in their room radiating metta to a person, that this will somehow impact that person. This is wrong. There is no "psychic lightning" that jumps from the meditating mind that impacts another person. A Scenario ========== Let us consider a scenario to illustrate the application of metta in daily life. You hear that an acquaintance has said that they thought you were arrogant. Initial Reaction ---------------- You analyze the situation, "Conditions arose and some vipaka ripened; the result of some past kamma. This is why I have heard these words. Though my past conditioning limits my choices, I still have free will; I can choose how to respond to this situation. If I choose to react negatively, I will have to suffer in the future. Reacting with dosa is like picking up a red-hot iron rod to hit somebody; I hurt myself first before getting a chance to hurt the other person." You examine your feelings, "I feel hurt. However, I understand that the words themselves did not hurt me. It was the emotions that I added onto the words that caused the hurt. The hurt comes from my pride, my conceit, my ego and perhaps, my arrogance. The hurt comes from me and by noting that the source of the emotions, I take away their power." You think about your acquaintance, "This comment shows that my acquaintance has dosa. They will suffer the results of this dosa according to the workings of their own kamma. I cannot allow their weakness to influence me and cause me to create bad kamma for myself. I must react to this situation with mettŒ to benefit both myself and my acquaintance." Planning the Response --------------------- To put metta into action, you decide to bake cookies for your acquaintance. You plan the process with metta. You buy the ingredients with metta. You mix the batter with metta. You put the cookies into a container with metta. With metta, you visualize yourself handing the container of cookies to your acquaintance. Each thought and each action, when done with metta, is kusala. The Response ------------ With metta, you approach your acquaintance and give them the container of cookies, saying something like, "I made some cookies. I would like to share some with you. I hope that you like them." You say it with a smile on your face and metta in your heart. After the Response ------------------ You have done something good; you have given with metta. Remember the pleasant feeling and commit to more kusala actions. Metta Bhavana ============= In the scenario above, there was no mention of metta meditation. Metta meditation is a training of your mind to develop a "habit" of automatically responding to a situation with metta. The mind goes through millions of thought processes each microsecond. One cannot "stand on guard" to ensure that you respond with metta at the appropriate time. To ensure that the mind responds with metta, it is necessary to develop a habit of metta. The only way to develop a habit is through routine repetition - this is why meditation must be performed regularly. Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent piece on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm I am looking forward to input from DSG. I plan to incorporate Christine's input plus those of others into the final talk. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi Howard and all, you wrote: op 20-07-2002 19:26 schreef Howard op Howard: >---------------------------------------------------- < Would that "seeing" of the visible object through the mind-door amount > to what might be called the experiencing of a "fresh memory" (a faithful > replica) of the just fallen-away image?> N: Just now you may feel some uneasiness, and it appears, you do not have to think in order to experience its characteristic. When there is sati, it can be mindful of this characteristic, no need to think about doorways, these processes are so fast. When we reason afterwards we know: the process where sati arises and is aware of a nama such as feeling, that object could not arise in the same process, but we can still call it awareness of the present reality. Why? Its characteristic appears. We can just try this out with the above example of uneasiness, or lobha. Does it not have a characteristic, does it not appear? When visible object or seeing appears to sati, sati can be aware of these characteristics one at a time, no need to think of doorways. Just now, we are seeing and it seems to continue for a while. It shows that the mind-door process cittas which still experience visible object follows so quickly. When we learn gradually more what seeing is: the experience of what is visible, what appears through the eye-door, we do not think of *fresh memory or faithful replica of the fallen away image*. I would personally not use these words. For me these words convey too much thinking of the how, where and when, or of what is happening. They do not help me to be directed towards characteristics that can be directly experienced. They give me the association of theory in the field of science, but this is just my own idea. The goal is: taking realities less for self, for my seeing, my visible object. But also thinking about the how and where and when arises because of conditions, such as accumulations, and this has a characteristic, it is nama, different from seeing. As to image: I associate this with Pali nimitta, which is not used for visible object, but the idea or concept, on account of what is seen. Hardness may appear. There is no need to think, "there must be bodysense so that hardness can appear". No need to think whether it appears to sati in the mind-door process. We know, when there is the characteristic of hardness, there must also be a nama which is the experience. Nama and rupa have different characteristics. Sati is aware of only one reality at a time. Sati is not concentration. Nobody can predict what reality (or Howard, O.K. if you prefer the word actuality) will appear, it depends on conditions. Can we plan hearing, aversion or thinking? How can we plan at one moment rupa, at another moment feeling, citta or another dhamma? How could we plan which application of mindfulness it will be? They are all of them just nama and rupa and can be objects of awareness one at a time. How could we direct this? And if one thinks, be aware of only rupas of the body, how can the difference between nama and rupa be known? Is this not basic, because so long as we take them together, so long as they are mixed, these dhammas are not clearly seen as they are. Nor can their arising and falling away, one at a time, be realized. In theory it may be easy to know: nama experiences, rupa does not know anything, but, do they appear to the sati one at a time? This is the only way that their different characteristics can be directly known. Best wishes, from Nina. 14496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:46am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Rob M, When a new doctor at the hospital asks me the question 'how is it that you actually do what you do?' I feel the same way I do now when you have asked the question about my practice. It is not that (at work) I don't know very well what I am doing (having been a crisis counsellor and 'doing it' for ten years or more at this Hospital), it is that I find it difficult to articulate the process. Just so, I feel awkward articulating what I try to do in daily life - though here raw inexperience and lack of knowledge plays a large part in my hesitation to describe it. Don't be concerned Rob, I don't feel anxious about your question - I have no problem (now :)) with not knowing what I am doing exactly, or wondering whether others on this list think I'm intelligent or not, or on the right 'track' or not. I realised a while ago that, like the cartoon character Popeye "I yam what I yam". And though they may not express an opinion on my intelligence :) - they will certainly speak up about skilful ways of practice. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about learning approaches for those new to Buddhism - I had no guide, only Google, and the local bookshop. Initially, I was a little like someone who has never seen a kitchen, being let loose with a hundred ingredients and no recipe book. My Buddhist History consists of coming to formal meditation four years or so ago, after a divorce in an attempt to find peace and meaning in life. I attended a weekly samatha- vipassana (Mahasi) group with an excellent teacher, I went to long and short retreats and was satisfied for a year or two. The teacher left, dissatisfaction slowly set in, until I realised it had been his Dhamma talks that were the main attraction, not solely the meditation. On the Internet, I found Dhamma texts and articles and the Yahoo groups. Exposure to different traditions and practices of Buddhism over a year or two (while still continuing formal meditation) led me to know that it was within Theravada, specifically including Abhidhamma studies, where I wished to 'dig my deep hole'. I don't really know what attracted me to this style of practice, or why it is 'just right' for me - kamma and accumulations? I watched, weighed and tested the quality of the teachings and the quality of the people that I met on dsg (and elsewhere). Eventually I went to meet some of them in Bangkok. I went to 'check out' this teacher - Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket - this was over New Year 2001-2002. So there has been just over six months since I started this practice in earnest. I too hope that some of the more experienced members of this group will have some input into your questions. Perhaps, reading from the links below may give you a clearer picturer. Understanding Reality by Nina van Gorkom http://www.dhammastudy.com/ur.html Mental Development in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom http://www.dhammastudy.com/mental.html as well as appropriate topics in the Dhammastudygroup Useful Posts (some I found helpful were Abhidhamma and Right Understanding, Right Understanding, and Right Understanding and Concentration) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Feel free to make any comments or ask any questions of the group that occur to you. No-one here will mind what opinions you have, there is nothing to be aligned to - there are some who practise samatha and some who do not. Often there are quite stimulating discussions on different ways of practice. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I'm really glad that my messages are helpful. When I am talking > directly to a student, I can see in their eyes if I have "lost > them". It is tougher using text messages. > > A couple of things in your message caught my eye. I would like to > better understand your approach to Buddhism and the practice. > > In your library, you probably have many books written to introduce > Buddhism to Westerners. Take out a few of them and look at the table > of contents. I suspect that many of them will have a structure > something like this: > Chapter 1: Life of the Buddha > Chapter 2: First Noble Truth > Chapter 3: Second Noble Truth > Chapter 4: Third Noble Truth > Chapter 5: Fourth Noble Truth > Chapter 6: Eightfold Noble Path > Chapter 7: Meditation > etc. > > I believe that introducing Buddhism starting with the Four Noble > Truths is not the best approach. Too philosophical. Consider the > following quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" > (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the > Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the > Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not > yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by > emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come to > appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his > teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in > renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their > impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that > unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths." > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm > > Paticcasamupadda is pretty philosophical stuff! > > Let me give an example to illustrate my point. Abhidhamma tells us > that dosa is supressed by metta, issa is supressed by mudita and > that macchariya is supressed by dana. Supressed, but not uprooted. > To uproot dosa, issa and macchariya, we need right understanding. I > suggest that it makes sense to try and develop metta, mudita and > dana first to supress dosa, issa and macchariya. Once dosa, issa and > macchariya have been supressed and the mind is calmed, we can > develop right understanding. Right understanding does not come from > books, it comes from experience. If we try to develop right > understanding first (before developing metta, mudita and dana), we > would find that dosa, issa, macchariya and a host of other akusala > cetasikas would constantly interfere with our efforts. > > In my opinion, "practice" is: > - Avoid evil (sila / precepts) > - Do good (dana) > - Purify the mind (meditation) > > I would like to better understand your practice. You have described > it as "awareness of realities as they appear at the different > doorways in this moment", but not involving meditation. Given that > there are a million cittas every microsecond, how can you accomplish > this? > > I have just reread my message from the beginning. Please understand. > I don't mean to be negative or challenge you. I am genuinely > interested in understanding more. The stated aim of this study group > is to "develop precise understanding of the realities of the present > moment." It would appear as though you are aligned and I am confused. > > Can you (or somebody else) help me understand better? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, and All, > > > > Thanks Rob - I learn a lot from your posts. Your discussion of > Sati > > has been really helpful - I'm sure it is often mentioned on list > and > > in the Useful Posts - but it is not until something becomes a > > difficulty that relevant information is 'seen afresh', and you > have > > written about it in a way that I can understand. I think I suffer > > from 'self taught internet-itis' whereby my understanding of > Buddha's > > Teaching has been stored in a thousand unrelated compartments, and > > there has been little integration of the separate topics in the > > separate compartments. I should have 'known' about vedana, mental > > formations, and craving from my readings on Paticcasamupadda. > There > > is so much to learn in these early years, so much effort going > into > > intellectual understanding, that there is a danger that my > gathering > > of information will blot out direct practice. > > You make a good point about not confusing the non-technical sense > of > > the word 'mindfulness', and to only use it in connection with its > > specific meaning. Habitual everyday usage can interfere with clear > > understanding of the buddhist meaning. > > Your message didn't generate confusion, rather, it helped very > much > > to clarify things. > > Rob, I actually don't currently do sitting meditation but your > > remarks and the remarks of the 'old monk' are pertinent to my > > practice anyway (awareness of realities as they appear at the > > different doorways in this moment), and, as you can tell, I am > still > > a novice at this. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: 14497 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/22/02 1:02:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Hi Howard and all, > you wrote: > op 20-07-2002 19:26 schreef Howard op Howard: > >---------------------------------------------------- > < Would that "seeing" of the visible object through the mind-door amount > > to what might be called the experiencing of a "fresh memory" (a faithful > > replica) of the just fallen-away image?> > N: Just now you may feel some uneasiness, and it appears, you do not have > to > think in order to experience its characteristic. When there is sati, it can > be mindful of this characteristic, no need to think about doorways, these > processes are so fast. =============================== Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must be a bit dense today - that is, more dense than usual ;-). I'm not following you. When an object is gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone - that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental discernment, instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some mental object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) of the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental consciousness is, what is it then? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14498 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:34am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Rob M Hi Christine, I am relieved that you understood my question in the spirit in which it was asked. It is not by random chance that you were drawn to the kind of work that you do and that you are attracted to Abhidhamma. It sounds as though you were a Buddhist is a previous life. I admire the kind of work that you do. Ajan Chah called this, "being a garbage pail with a hole in the bottom". People dump their garbage into you and you must have a hole so that none of it accumulates. I had read Nina's "Understanding Realities" before - it was one of the first handouts to the class. I particularly liked the part about eating the duck's foot - it really drove home the point. Over the next couple of days I will read the other links that you have provided and I will probably have some more questions. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > When a new doctor at the hospital asks me the question 'how is it > that you actually do what you do?' I feel the same way I do now when > you have asked the question about my practice. It is not that (at > work) I don't know very well what I am doing (having been a crisis > counsellor and 'doing it' for ten years or more at this Hospital), it > is that I find it difficult to articulate the process. Just so, I > feel awkward articulating what I try to do in daily life - though > here raw inexperience and lack of knowledge plays a large part in my > hesitation to describe it. > Don't be concerned Rob, I don't feel anxious about your question - I > have no problem (now :)) with not knowing what I am doing exactly, or > wondering whether others on this list think I'm intelligent or not, > or on the right 'track' or not. I realised a while ago that, like > the cartoon character Popeye "I yam what I yam". And though they may > not express an opinion on my intelligence :) - they will certainly > speak up about skilful ways of practice. > I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about learning approaches > for those new to Buddhism - I had no guide, only Google, and the > local bookshop. Initially, I was a little like someone who has > never seen a kitchen, being let loose with a hundred ingredients and > no recipe book. My Buddhist History consists of coming to formal > meditation four years or so ago, after a divorce in an attempt to > find peace and meaning in life. I attended a weekly samatha- > vipassana (Mahasi) group with an excellent teacher, I went to long > and short retreats and was satisfied for a year or two. The teacher > left, dissatisfaction slowly set in, until I realised it had been his > Dhamma talks that were the main attraction, not solely the > meditation. On the Internet, I found Dhamma texts and articles and > the Yahoo groups. Exposure to different traditions and practices of > Buddhism over a year or two (while still continuing formal > meditation) led me to know that it was within Theravada, > specifically including Abhidhamma studies, where I wished to 'dig my > deep hole'. > I don't really know what attracted me to this style of practice, or > why it is 'just right' for me - kamma and accumulations? I watched, > weighed and tested the quality of the teachings and the quality of > the people that I met on dsg (and elsewhere). Eventually I went to > meet some of them in Bangkok. I went to 'check out' this teacher - > Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket - this was over New Year 2001-2002. So > there has been just over six months since I started this practice in > earnest. I too hope that some of the more experienced members of > this group will have some input into your questions. Perhaps, reading > from the links below may give you a clearer picturer. > Understanding Reality by Nina van Gorkom > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ur.html > Mental Development in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom > http://www.dhammastudy.com/mental.html > as well as appropriate topics in the Dhammastudygroup Useful Posts > (some I found helpful were Abhidhamma and Right Understanding, Right > Understanding, and Right Understanding and Concentration) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Feel free to make any comments or ask any questions of the group that > occur to you. No-one here will mind what opinions you have, there is > nothing to be aligned to - there are some who practise samatha and > some who do not. Often there are quite stimulating discussions on > different ways of practice. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I'm really glad that my messages are helpful. When I am talking > > directly to a student, I can see in their eyes if I have "lost > > them". It is tougher using text messages. > > > > A couple of things in your message caught my eye. I would like to > > better understand your approach to Buddhism and the practice. > > > > In your library, you probably have many books written to introduce > > Buddhism to Westerners. Take out a few of them and look at the > table > > of contents. I suspect that many of them will have a structure > > something like this: > > Chapter 1: Life of the Buddha > > Chapter 2: First Noble Truth > > Chapter 3: Second Noble Truth > > Chapter 4: Third Noble Truth > > Chapter 5: Fourth Noble Truth > > Chapter 6: Eightfold Noble Path > > Chapter 7: Meditation > > etc. > > > > I believe that introducing Buddhism starting with the Four Noble > > Truths is not the best approach. Too philosophical. Consider the > > following quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > > "In the Pali suttas we read time and again that "talk on giving" > > (danakatha) was invariably the first topic to be discussed by the > > Buddha in his "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the > > Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people who had not > > yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start by > > emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come > to > > appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his > > teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in > > renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their > > impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them that > > unique discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths." > > > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm > > > > Paticcasamupadda is pretty philosophical stuff! > > > > Let me give an example to illustrate my point. Abhidhamma tells us > > that dosa is supressed by metta, issa is supressed by mudita and > > that macchariya is supressed by dana. Supressed, but not uprooted. > > To uproot dosa, issa and macchariya, we need right understanding. I > > suggest that it makes sense to try and develop metta, mudita and > > dana first to supress dosa, issa and macchariya. Once dosa, issa > and > > macchariya have been supressed and the mind is calmed, we can > > develop right understanding. Right understanding does not come from > > books, it comes from experience. If we try to develop right > > understanding first (before developing metta, mudita and dana), we > > would find that dosa, issa, macchariya and a host of other akusala > > cetasikas would constantly interfere with our efforts. > > > > In my opinion, "practice" is: > > - Avoid evil (sila / precepts) > > - Do good (dana) > > - Purify the mind (meditation) > > > > I would like to better understand your practice. You have described > > it as "awareness of realities as they appear at the different > > doorways in this moment", but not involving meditation. Given that > > there are a million cittas every microsecond, how can you > accomplish > > this? > > > > I have just reread my message from the beginning. Please > understand. > > I don't mean to be negative or challenge you. I am genuinely > > interested in understanding more. The stated aim of this study > group > > is to "develop precise understanding of the realities of the > present > > moment." It would appear as though you are aligned and I am > confused. > > > > Can you (or somebody else) help me understand better? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14499 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Digest Number 982/Betty Dear Christine & Mom Betty, I think some people desire the rebirths because: 1) Their supernatural powers and strengths 2) Their deva-like comfort in lives. The nagas and supanna represent the extreme side of a rebirth of an animal, mainly, it is comfortable, although it is impossible to develop Jhana or Magga. BTW, supanna is also the official emblem of the king of Thailand. Mom Betty would know how the Thais think a supanna looks like... kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 2:07 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 982/Betty > > > Hi Betty, > > Thanks for this information. Kind of you to search for me. I don't > know why anyone would desire birth as a Supanna unless, as RobK says, > they have certain Powers. > > 'Fairwing' - I like that name very much - If I ever have another > budgerigah, I have a ready-made name! :) > > metta, > Christine 14500 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:28am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (1) DOORS AND PHYSICAL BASES OF CITTA The Buddha pointed out the dangers of being infatuated by the objects we experience through the six doors. He taught people to develop the wisdom which knows the realities experienced through the six doors as nama and rupa, phenomena which are impermanent and not self. What is impermanent is 'dukkha', it cannot be happiness. When we come to know things as they are, we will be less infatuated by objects. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch. III, par. 81, A brother) about the purpose of the Buddha's teachings. The text states: Then a number of monks came to see the Exalted One.... Seated at one side those monks said to the Exalted One:- - 'Now here, lord, the wandering sectarians thus question us: 'What is the object, friend, for which the holy life is lived under the rule of Gotama the recluse?' Thus questioned, lord, 'we thus make answer to those wandering sectarians : 'It is for the full knowledge of dukkha that the holy life is lived under the rule of the Exalted One. Pray, lord, when, thus questioned, we so make answer, do we state the views of the Exalted One, without misrepresenting the Exalted One by stating an untruth? Do we answer in accordance with his teaching, so that no one who agrees with his teaching and follows his views could incur reproach?' 'Truly, monks, when thus questioned, you thus make answer, you do state my views.. in stating that it is for the full knowledge of dukkha that the holy life is lived under my rule. But if, monks, the wandering sectarians should thus question you : 'But what, friend, is that dukkha, for the full knowledge of which the holy life is lived under the rule of Gotama the recluse?'- - thus questioned you should answer thus: 'The eye, friend, is dukkha. For the full knowledge of that the holy life is lived... Objects...that pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling that arises through mind-contact,- - that also is dukkha. Fully to know that, the holy life is lived under the rule of the Exalted One.' Thus questioned, monks, by those wandering sectarians, thus should you make answer.' In being aware of nama and rupa which appear, such as seeing, visible object, feeling or thinking, we can prove the truth of the Buddha's teachings by ourselves ; we can prove that the objects experienced through the six doors are impermanent and not self. The truth will not be known if one follows other people blindly or if one speculates about the truth. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. V, par. 152, Is there a method?) that the Buddha said: 'ls there, monks, any method, by following which a monk, apart from belief, apart from inclination, apart from hearsay, apart from argument as to method, apart from reflection on reasons, apart from delight in speculation, could affirm insight thus : 'Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter?' 'For us, lord, things have their root in the Exalted One... Well indeed were it if the meaning of this that has been spoken were to manifest itself in the Exalted One. Hearing it from him the monks will remember it.' 'There is indeed a method, monks, by following which a monk....could affirm insight...And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and ignorance, thus : 'I have lust, malice and ignorance', or recognizes the non-existence of these qualities within him, thus: 'I have not lust, malice and ignorance.' Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or by inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?' 'Surely not, lord.' 'Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?' 'Surely, lord.' 'Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief... a monk could affirm insight thus: 'Ended is birth...for life in these conditions there is no hereafter." The same is said with regard to the ear-door, the door of the nose, the door of the tongue, the body-door and the mind-door. 14501 From: yuzhonghao Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Hi Christine, No, Christine, it does not mean mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is the only way, nor does it mean there is some other way. What I understand is this: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." Regards, Victor --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks for this Victor, Does this mean mindfulness of in-and-out > breathing is the ONLY way when developed and pursued, that brings the > four frames of reference to their culmination? > > metta, > Christine > > --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > Hi, Howard, Christine, and all, > > > > I would like to bring the following passage to attention: > > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their > culmination. > > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14502 From: yuzhonghao Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:45am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Feelings - emotions/Victor Hi Christine, --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Reply interspersed below. > > "How to separate Feelings from Emotions?" > Victor: I think it depends on how you understand what it means by > feelings and emotions. > >>>>>Christine: What my understanding is of what the Buddha means by > feelings and emotions, I have gained from readings such > as "Contemplation of Feelings" by Nyanaponika Thera. > Excerpt" One may now appreciate the significance of the Buddha's > terse saying that 'all things converge on feelings.' The central > position of feeling in human life also makes it clear why the Buddha > included feelings as a separate category among the five constituent > aggregates of personality (pancakkhandha) and as a separate mode of > contemplation in the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana)." > and > "In precise pinpointing of mental states undertaken in Buddhist > psychology, feeling (vedana) is understood as the bare sensation > experienced as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) or neutral > (indifferent). It is distinguished from emotion, a more complex > phenomenon which arises from the basic feeling, but adds to it > various overlays of an evaluative, volitional and cognitive > character." It is fine if you understand feelings and emotions that way. However one understands them, one is be mindful of them in developing mindfulness. > > "Do all the Foundations need to be practiced?" > Victor: Which one do you think that does not need to be developed? > >>>>Christine: Not sure. DO all of them need to be developed? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of body? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of feelings? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of mind? Do you think one can develop mindfulness without developing mindfulness of mental qualities? If one is not to develop mindfulness, one does not need to develop mindfulness of body or mindfulness of feelings or mindfulness of mind or mindfulness of mental qualities at all. If one is to develop mindfulness, then yes, all of them need to be developed. > > "Or can one, or part of one like the breath, be chosen to the > exclusion of all others?" > Victor: How and why would breath to be chosen to the exclusion of all > others? > >>>>Christine: Not sure. Most Western Buddhists sit and watch the > breath, a small part of one Foundation, and this seems to be > considered sufficient. Hmmm...I am here not to judge whether sitting and watching the breathing is a small part of one Foundation, nor am I here to judge whether it is considered sufficient or not for most Western Buddhists. > > "Or do they automatically intermingle?" > Victor: Intermingle in what way? Automaticity would make the job > easier. Wouldn't it? > >>>>Christine: Not sure ... and I asked first. :) > OK. > Even just one Foundation seems such a big job to become accomplished > in .... > Victor: So are you going to do the job or not? > >>>>Christine: Not sure. I'm trying to find out the totality of > what needs to be done. How would you develop mindfulness? > > metta, > Christine Regards, Victor 14503 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: Metta in Daily Life Dear RobM, I can give some extra points to those below. Metta can be developed within or without the sasana of the Buddha - hence even with a solid belief in self one may succeed in developing metta. However, right understanding of anatta can cut through much kilesa and so be a condition for metta. In the Abhidhamma it is explained that wholesome(kusala) or unwholesome (akusala) mindstates can be asankharika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) or sasankharika (prompted ). One of the benefits of regular consideration of the different aspects of Dhamma is that there are more conditions for bringing the teaching to mind in different situations. For instance someone may say something we find annoying and immediately anger of some degree arises - the anger is asankharika (unprompted) , we didn't need to contempate for it to arise. But then soon afterwards patience and understanding and metta can arise because of the bringing to mind of such aspects of the teachings as anicca i.e. " all dhammas pass away instantly, who then are you angry with - the air?". And so the anger dissipates. The more often the teachings are brought to mind, in whatever situation, the more variety of sasankharika (prompted) wholesome states that will arise; not only that but they will arise more and more rapidly, until they may gradually become habitual and then they will be asankharika (unprompted), they arise naturally without any prompting. This, of course takes time and effort, and happens not because of study alone but only by applying the Dhamma repeatedly. And it all happens by conditions, not self, anatta; the times when there had to be careful bringing to mind for kusala to arise was just as conditioned as when it arose without prompting. The metta and patience are just as anatta as anger and ill-will. There can also be direct insight into the moments of sound - and if there is then there will be no unwholesome reaction at all, and so metta is free to arise. Robert --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > In my upcoming class, I will be covering Adosa (Metta and Khanti). > > I will start with some point form notes from Nina's > book, "Cetasikas". > > Next, I will give a summary of Acharya Buddharakkhita's > book, "Metta - The Philosophy and Practice of Universal Love". What > I have done in the past and will do with this book is to download > the entire text and then delete 80% of the words, keeping 80% of the > meaning. This is the class handout (my students don't like to read). > I then summarize the main points of the handout verbally. > > Following this, I will hand out a shortened version of the Subhasita- > jaya Sutta (debate on the virtue of patience). I suspect that the US > response to September 11 will come up as a discussion point. > > Here is the web-site for the Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn11-005.html > > I have written the following "Metta in Daily Life" that I would like > the DSG to provide suggestions to add / modify / delete. > > METTA IN DAILY LIFE > =================== > Nobody needs to be convinced that metta is good; it is obvious. What > is not so obvious is how to put metta into practice. Some people > believe that if they sit in their room radiating metta to a person, > that this will somehow impact that person. This is wrong. There is > no "psychic lightning" that jumps from the meditating mind that > impacts another person. > > A Scenario > ========== > Let us consider a scenario to illustrate the application of metta in > daily life. You hear that an acquaintance has said that they thought > you were arrogant. > > Initial Reaction > ---------------- > You analyze the situation, "Conditions arose and some vipaka > ripened; the result of some past kamma. This is why I have heard > these words. Though my past conditioning limits my choices, I still > have free will; I can choose how to respond to this situation. If I > choose to react negatively, I will have to suffer in the future. > Reacting with dosa is like picking up a red-hot iron rod to hit > somebody; I hurt myself first before getting a chance to hurt the > other person." > > You examine your feelings, "I feel hurt. However, I understand that > the words themselves did not hurt me. It was the emotions that I > added onto the words that caused the hurt. The hurt comes from my > pride, my conceit, my ego and perhaps, my arrogance. The hurt comes > from me and by noting that the source of the emotions, I take away > their power." > > You think about your acquaintance, "This comment shows that my > acquaintance has dosa. They will suffer the results of this dosa > according to the workings of their own kamma. I cannot allow their > weakness to influence me and cause me to create bad kamma for > myself. I must react to this situation with mettŒ to benefit both > myself and my acquaintance." > > Planning the Response > --------------------- > To put metta into action, you decide to bake cookies for your > acquaintance. You plan the process with metta. You buy the > ingredients with metta. You mix the batter with metta. You put the > cookies into a container with metta. With metta, you visualize > yourself handing the container of cookies to your acquaintance. Each > thought and each action, when done with metta, is kusala. > > The Response > ------------ > With metta, you approach your acquaintance and give them the > container of cookies, saying something like, "I made some cookies. I > would like to share some with you. I hope that you like them." You > say it with a smile on your face and metta in your heart. > > After the Response > ------------------ > You have done something good; you have given with metta. Remember > the pleasant feeling and commit to more kusala actions. > > Metta Bhavana > ============= > In the scenario above, there was no mention of metta meditation. > Metta meditation is a training of your mind to develop a "habit" of > automatically responding to a situation with metta. > > The mind goes through millions of thought processes each > microsecond. One cannot "stand on guard" to ensure that you respond > with metta at the appropriate time. To ensure that the mind responds > with metta, it is necessary to develop a habit of metta. The only > way to develop a habit is through routine repetition - this is why > meditation must be performed regularly. > > > > Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent piece > on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). > > http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm > > > I am looking forward to input from DSG. I plan to incorporate > Christine's input plus those of others into the final talk. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14504 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) VERY nice. Well, all the latest pictures are very impressive. If I hadn't already put in two of myself and one of my child, I would post one of me in a nice shirt to compete!! Robert ================= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear O, (Num and Kom), > > I think we did it!! What an attractive group - clearly dsg-ers! > Please go to > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > and click on photos 38 and 39. > Yahoo wouldn't let me type in a longer description of the photos - > so I'll have to tell the Group here that the first one is of Num and > you at the Bridal Shop in Shop in San Francisco. The second one is > of Kom, yourself, and Num when Num was transiting to Thailand via San > Francisco. > > Everyone - O has offered a warm welcome to any DSG members passing > through San Francisco and requests they get in touch (So she can > collect more pictures! :):)) > > metta, > Christine 14505 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Hi Jon. Ramble alert. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > Jon, > > I have finally worked my way backwards to this post. The problem is, in > > going > > backwards, there are always new posts to get through. It's like trying > > to get > > through the powerful waves at the shoreline to try to get out to the big > > waves at > > sea. There are always more waves coming in. Anyway, enough analogy. > > A good analogy, Rob. I find it perfectly describes the difficulty I'm > having in getting anything posted on this thread. There are always plenty > of other interesting (not to mention challenging) posts to respond to! > > > I find your 'battle plan' for the jhanas very congenial, and I like your > > goal in > > looking at samatha and the jhanas as well as my own. I think between us > > we have a > > pretty good interest in looking at the subject, and I'll look forward to > > anything > > you find. > > > > I'll also be on the lookout myself. > > Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes of > view!!) > > Jon ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good chuckle. yup, what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it as 'conditions'. It's like the 'path' itself. I stopped being so impatient when I suddenly got a view of how gigantic it was, way beyond what I could even imagine seeing, like the universe itself. Or when I saw the Himalayas for the first time [1 out of 2]. You think: 'Well that's impossible; they're not there.' Then you have to give up, and realize there are some things so much bigger than you, that it's ridiculous. How small we are. One's own nature is like that too. The years that I spent trying to change myself by main force. At some point you give up and contribute 'what you are' to the situation. So here we are, covering both ends of intention without having the capacity to intend anything in the first place. None of this has anything to do with the jhanas, but that's okay. Robert Ep. 14506 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > Always glad to see you around..looking f/w to when you and Jon actually > brave those waves;-) > : ) Hi Sarah, I'm looking forward to Jon and me braving the waves too...especially Jon! ha ha. > What fun we had when we were young......;-) Yup. I'm glad I'm having less fun now! : ) Best, Robert Ep. 14507 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Dear Jon, Your points are well taken, and they lead me to a question: if samatha is [possibly] not necessary as a condition for vipassana; and if samatha is as difficult to attain as vipassana; but the attainment of enlightenment with samatha is a higher attainment than of enlightenment alone; what is it that samatha is *necessary* for; what is it's great value as far as you know so far; and what role *does* it play in the development of insight/enlightenment/liberation? I know it's a big question, but I am only asking for a temporary clarification on the way; sometimes I forget simple things and suddenly don't know what I'm talking about....or perhaps that is just the development of a bit of insight on my own lack of understanding.... : / Best, Robert Ep. =================================== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Thanks for these comments, Rob. I will extract 1 or 2 passages from your > post and intersperse my comments. > > Rob: "…the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization is a factor > in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that > are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality". > > Jon: It is true, as you say, that "insight cannot be developed by cittas > that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality". But then, > neither can samatha (or the jhanas) be developed by cittas that are > 'clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality'. > > Both samatha and vipassana require panna for their development. But there > is a difference in the quality of the panna required -- in the case of > samatha it is panna of the kind that knows the difference between kusala > and akusala mental states, and knows the value of the tranquillity that > comes with kusala. In the case of vipassana, it is panna that knows the > true nature of the dhamma (be it a mental state or sense-door object) > presently appearing. > > As to the ignorance or and wrong view that lies behind any 'ignorant > conceptualizations of reality', these factors are as much hindrances to > samatha as they are to vipassana. > > As far as other kilesas are concerned, in neither case can the panna arise > contemporaneously with the akusala. But this aside, there is an important > difference between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana in the manner in > which the other kilesa constitute a hindrance to its development, and this > is tied in with the different nature of the 2 kinds of development. At > high levels of samatha, further progress depends on being able to maintain > continuously a particular object or sign (kammatthana or nimitta). Any > moment of akusala that disturbs this continuity therefore interrupts the > development. > > In the development of insight, however, there is no single or particular > dhamma that is the 'right' object for awareness or understanding. A > moment of (just fallen away) akusala is as good an object for insight as > any another dhamma. Indeed, all categories of dhammas, including the > kilesas, must sooner or later be seen as they truly are, otherwise the > idea of self will not be eradicated in relation to that particular > category of dhamma. > > Of course, since the Buddha urged the development of all kinds of kusala, > samatha included, we should not neglect any opportunity for development of > any aspect of kusala. Also, I acknowledge that the attainment of both > mundane jhana and enlightenment is a higher attainment than the attainment > of enlightenment alone. Nevertheless, it is important to understand > clearly the distinction between the 2 as regards their characteristic, > function and goal. There is a tendency to fudge the difference. > > Well, I seem to have gone on at some length on this 1 point, so perhaps > I'll send this off and come back on any other points later. > > Jon > > ============ 14508 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Let me continue with 1 or 2 other points from your post. > > Rob: "…samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not > lead to insight or enlightenment. The jhanas, being very deep samadhic > states which are difficult to attain and require special types of > concentration, might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without > insight." > > Jon: Hmmm … Not sure about this. Samatha is the tranquillity that > accompanies wholesome (kusala) moments only, and the jhanas are the > highest form of samatha. In other words, jhana is the outcome of samatha > properly developed and maintained to its fullest. So samatha could never > lead to a drug-like state. Perhaps you are thinking of concentration. > Concentration can be either kusala or akusala, and may indeed lead to > unwholesome concentrated states. Hi Jon. I have heard samatha and samadhi used somewhat interchangeably. I think that you would obviously disagree, and say that samadhi can be abused, but not samatha. There are others of course who use samadhi in the same positive sense; they would not define it as samadhi if it is an unskillful form of concentration, since samadhi is the height of skillful concentration. It is possible they can be used interchangeably in the kusala sense, and that some other terms should be used for concentration-lobotomy and bliss addiction. > Rob: "There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practising the > jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?' > > Jon: The practice of samatha and the attainment of the jhanas was > obviously very widespread among ascetics of all persuasions in the time of > the Buddha. It was I believe a phenomenon that existed quite > independently of the Buddha's encouragement of it to his followers. > > It was approved and encouraged by the Buddha, I suppose, because it is a > very high level of kusala and, as such, a support for the development of > panna/vipassana. While samatha is not something that only monks can have > or develop, its development to the degree of jhana, and the attainments > that come with its mastery, is a proper 'resort' (gocara') for monks in > particular rather than lay-people. So you feel that Buddha was not prescribing the jhanas, but simply acknowledging them as one possible positive support for development of the path? Best, Robert Ep. 14509 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha images Dear Ruth, Since I'm always rather way behind with reading the digests in the list, a very belated welcome to you. I must confess that every time I see your name, it brings up memories of my wonderful mother who was also named Ruth Klein. Klein was her maiden name. I too come from the same cultural background as you and had the same doubts and uncomfortable feelings about bowing down to a "graven image" when I first came to Thailand back in 1966. I could not see the purpose of it, and at the time, thought it totally unnecessary. I saw the images only as lovely art objects, but bowed to them during ceremonies out of respect for my husband's family. Later, many here tried to convince me that the images held "psychic powers" and indeed, many Thais venerate them for the "power" they believe the images possess. However, with the study of Abhidhamma, a new understanding of Buddha images arose. The Tipitaka says (sorry, I don't know the text reference, would someone kindly help me out?) something to the effect: he who sees the Dhamma, sees the Tathagata. One who increasingly understands the Dhamma, likewise becomes increasingly aware of the awesomeness of both the Dhamma and of the One who discovered and taught the Dhamma to us. So now, when I do see a Buddha image, it acts as a "condition" for the arising of a sense of joy and thanksgiving for the Dhamma, with the understanding that the image itself is just a reminder to us to keep on developing bhavana, dana and sila. By the way, at the Foundation where Achaan Sujin teaches, there are no Buddha images at all. There is a tastefully designed altar with a lovely crystal "stupa" which has a relic of the Buddha encased within, given to the Foundation by the Supreme Patriarch. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 ________________________________________________________________________ > > > I couldn't agree more! One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike > reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama. I understand, > intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment. And that > bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of respect, > and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western > handshake. (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a cultural thing.) > > However, I cannot help but stop myself from setting up my own altar or > bowing to the Buddha, simply because of the conditioned beliefs of "Thou > shalt have no other g-d before me." and "Thou shalt not make unto thee any > graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above...." > > Also, if I am not mistaken, though the earlier suttas expound that > Siddhartha Gautama was a man, some of the later ones (and works such as the > Buddhavamsa) have elevated him past the human realm to a superman, > Maha-Purisa. (See George Bond: "The Word of the Buddha: The Tipitaka and > its Interpretation in Theravada Buddhism", M.D. Gunasena & Co, 1982). > > I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal conflicts; but I need > to explore them further. > 14510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: translation Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind words. The undue tasks: I used my Jataka translation and the Thai and some of it is not clear. Here we could ask Kom: Thai: p. 26, they apply themselves to tasks which are not (their) business? Mai chai thura, somewhat strange. My Jataka (and yours): the fool: binds loads on him that none should bear. The English translation of the Jataka is sometimes strange. Undue burdens is better. My guess: he is a fool, he takes upon himself burdens he cannot cope with. op 22-07-2002 11:12 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine: > I wonder if you could clarify the meaning for me of what the ascetic > Akitti said about Fools ... "they are likely to take upon themselves > undue tasks" ... 14511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:02am Subject: Perfections, ch 3, no. 4 Perfections, Ch 3, no. 4: Sakka asked: ³Kassapa, what else do you wish for?² The ascetic Akitti said: ³Sakka, King of the Devas, if you like to give me a boon, I would ask you the following boon: people should see wise men, they should listen to them, seek their company and cherish conversations with them.² Sakka questioned Akitti so that he would give a clear explanation for the benefit of those who wish to have precise understanding and who study the Dhamma. Sakka asked Akitti, ³Kassapa, please explain the reason why you like to associate with the wise, why you wish to see the wise?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³The wise advise to do what is proper, they do not take upon themselves undue burdens. It is easy to encourage the wise. They do not retort well spoken words with anger. They know well right conduct. It is good to associate with the wise. Sakka asked, ³What else do you wish for?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³When the night is spent and the sun, the ruler of the world, rises, may divine food and holy mendicants appear, and may the food that I will offer not become exhausted. May I not repent my deed but give with a pure mind. This is a boon I wish for.² Sakka asked, ³What else do you wish for?² The ascetic Akitti said, ³Sakka, King of the Devas, if you want to give me a boon, may you not visit me again.² This is the last boon the ascetic Akitti asked for. This shows that he was not heedless with regard to the akusala he had accumulated. Sakka was most surprised because everybody wishes to see sons and daugthers of devas, divine beings. Some people develop kusala of the degree of calm in order to see devas. But the ascetic Akitti wished that Sakka would not visit him again. We read: Sakka said, ³Many people wish to see, because of their righteous conduct, sons and daughters of devas. What is the danger in seeing me?² The ascetic Akitti answered, ³I may transgress my vow of ascetism when I see the appearance of devas, beings who are full of glory and delightful to the senses. This is the danger in seeing you.² Thereupon Sakka said, ³This is good, revered one, from now on I shall not visit you again² and he departed. The Bodhisatta dwellt in the same place during his whole life. After he passed away he was reborn in the world of the Brahma. The reverend Anuruddha was Sakka, the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti. The ascetic Akitti was heedful, he did not even want to see what could be a danger to him. We can learn a lesson from this story, we should consider the perfections with regard to our own life. We have a long way to go in order to attain the realization of the four noble Truths and the eradication of defilements. If we do not understand what the perfections really are, we do not have the firm determination to study the Dhamma in order to have right understanding, to apply the Dhamma and to practise it with sincerity, which is the perfection of truthfulness. We should study and practise without being disturbed by the worldly conditions of gain, loss, honour, dishonour, praise, blame, happiness and misery. If we are unshakable by these worldly conditions, we are beginning to develop the perfections so that they become more firmly established. 14512 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: translation Dear Nina and Christine, If you have the atthagatha to the particular jataka, there is a further explanation. Let me first give you comments on the Thai translation, and I will give you a translation from the Thai commentaries (be careful!) Mai chai thura in Thai is exactly how you translated, not their business. Dhura may have additional meaning, though: if you stretch it, it probably can mean duty, behavior, or practice. The commentary says this: a-dhura-yang(???) (same word root as thura): means someone with inferior panna, who doesn't induce in others the business (the development?) of saddha, the development of sila, the development of panna, who induce in others improper businesses. You may want to re-verify the translations with others (more knowledgeable!) for the sentence: "they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks" as the Thai translation and the commentaries interpretting this as inducing on others, not applying to themselves. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:Nina] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: translation > > > Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind words. The undue tasks: I used my > Jataka translation and the Thai and some of it is not clear. Here we could > ask Kom: Thai: p. 26, they apply themselves to tasks which are not (their) > business? Mai chai thura, somewhat strange. My Jataka (and > yours): the fool: > binds loads on him that none should bear. The English translation of the > Jataka is sometimes strange. > Undue burdens is better. My guess: he is a fool, he takes upon himself > burdens he cannot cope with. > > op 22-07-2002 11:12 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine: > > > > I wonder if you could clarify the meaning for me of what the ascetic > > Akitti said about Fools ... "they are likely to take upon themselves > > undue tasks" ... 14513 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:55am Subject: mindfulness do you ever look at your watch and immediately forget the time, so you look again? and still it doesn't register, so you have to look a third time. And then someone asks you what time it is, and you actually have to look at your watch for the fourth time in 3 minutes? Don't you feel stupid? - george carlin 14514 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:55am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (2) When we study the Abhidhamma we should keep in mind the purpose of the Buddha's teachings: the eradication of defilements through the wisdom which realizes phenomena appearing through the six doors as they are. Through this method there will be an end to the cycle of birth and death. We should remember that the Abhidhamma is not a theoretical textbook but an exposition of realities appearing in daily life. We learn about nama and rupa; we learn about cittas which each have their own function in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process. There are sense-door processes and mind-door processes time and again, and objects are experienced during these processes of citta. If there is awareness of characteristics of nama and rupa when they appear, the panna is developed which can eradicate defilements. This kind of wisdom is deeper than any kind of theoretical knowledge. Nama and rupa which arise and fall away are conditioned realities, they arise because of different conditions. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn about different conditions for nama and rupa. Each reality which arises is dependent on several conditions. For instance, seeing is vipaka, produced by kamma. Visible object conditions seeing by being its object (arammana). lf there is no visible object there cannot be seeing. Eye-sense, the kind of rupa in the eye (pasada-rupa) which is able to receive visible object, is another condition for seeing. The rupa which is eye-sense can be the door (in Pali : dvara) for seeing. A door or 'dvara' is the means through which citta experiences an object. There is eye-sense arising and falling away all the time; throughout our life it is produced by kamma. However, eye-sense is not a door all the time, because there is not all the time the experience of visible object. Eye-sense is a door only when citta experiences visible object. It is the same with the pasada-rupas which are the other sense-organs. They are doors only when they are the means through which citta experiences an object. The eye-door is the means through which citta experiences visible object. Not only the cittas which are cakkhu-dvaravajjana-citta (eye-door-adverting-consciousness) and cakkhu-vinnana (seeing-consciousness) experience the object through the eye-door; the other cittas of that process, which are sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness), santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness), votthapana-citta (determining- consciousness), the javana-cittas and the tadarammana-cittas are also dependent on the same door, in order to experience the object. After the rupa which is experienced by these cittas has fallen away, the object can be experienced through the mind-door (mano-dvara). Cittas arising in a process which experience an object through one of the six doors are vithi-cittas (vithi means: way, course, process). Vithi-cittas are named after the door through which they experience an object. For example, the cittas which experience an object through the eye-door are called cakkhu-dvara-vithi-cittas (cakkhu-dvara means eye-door); the cittas which experience an object through the ear-door (sota-dvara) are called sota-dvara-vithi-cittas; the cittas which experience an object through the mind-door (mano-dvara) are called mano-dvara-vithi-cittas. In between the different processes of citta there have to be bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum). Bhavanga-cittas are not vithi-cittas. They are not part of the process of cittas experiencing objects which time and again throughout our life experiencing on the six doors. They experience an object without being dependent on any doorway. As we have seen (Ch. 15), the patisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of one life experience the same object as the last javana-cittas which arose before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The patisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta are vithi-vimutti-cittas (vithi-vimutti means: process-freed); thus, they are different from the cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. 14515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of > what > > is > > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the > Anguttara > > > Nikaya > > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). > Diagramatically, > > what is said there is the following: > > > > > > Sense control > > > -> > > > Virtue > > > -> > > > Right concentration > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > > > -> > > > Revulsion and dispassion > > > -> > > > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > > > > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite > > pivotal. ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in > its > general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so > that > "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are > conditions > for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can > envisage > what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic > conditionalities. > I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right > > concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of > liberative > wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any > folks who > might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that > formative > stage of practice. No argument from me on this, Howard. Just a slight reservation about overemphasising the role of concentration or against equating it with samatha. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before > > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before > > virtue. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get > started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. > A > degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a > degree > of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, > around and around, wider and wider. > --------------------------------------------------- Yes. Momentary occurrences of each are possible, I think. Jon 14516 From: Num Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:48am Subject: Patisambhidamagga 3 Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 Dear Nina and all. Let me first say happy asalahapuja day, the day that the Buddha gave out his first teaching, dhammacakkapavattana sutta. I am still figuring out how best to report the PTSM session. At this point, I will put in the matika and then brief the atthakatha and stress on the part that I think it’s crucial. I just got my computer back, so this PTSM summary will be somewhat long. Book #1 is matika and its commentary. There are 73 different levels of n~ana. This part is dealing with each n~ana’s definition and its tipitaka references. A.Supee and A.Sujin stressed that each (ariyan) person has different accumulation and it’s not necessary that he/she attained all n~ana. Ven.Sariputta explained this sutta in explicit detail to cover all possible n~ana. For example there are 6 n~anas that can be attained only by the Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: knowledge) Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to the teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of listening for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge (n~ana). <> A.Sujin stressed on the importance of listening and the knowledge at the listening level. 2) Silamayan~ana Matika: Knowledge in listening to dhamma and then restrain is silaman~ana. Atthakatha: Knowledge attained through restrain. (silamayan~ana). Sangvara (restraint) factors: pat.imokkha, sati, n~ana, khanti, and viriya. There are many kinds and level of sila, but all silas has restrain as there characteristic. Getting rid of one who is unrestrained, or having no adverse effect as its function. Cleanness as its manifestation, and having shame (hiri) and fear of blame (ottappa) as its proximate cause. Knowledge which accompanies (sampayutta) by sila is silamayan~ana. Reflecting on adverse effects of unrestraint, reflecting on benefit of restraint, reflecting on purity of restraint, and reflecting the cleanness attained from restraint are parts of silamayan~ana. 3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who contains in restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single point with the ability of upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, knowledge in samadhicitta, or associated with samadhicitta. 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, sabhava: kusaladhamma, akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma called dhamma because it is being arisen sustained by its conditions. Knowing by discernment of each dhamma’s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( atthakatha then says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. The atthakatha then stresses on the importance of listening to the Buddha teaching. It mentions “no being†(nissattata). There is dhamma that exists very briefly, then changes and gone (vikara). The atthakatha then raises the point why this nana is not being called samatha-paccayapariyanana (knowledge in discernment of conditions by one-pointed mind). The atthakatha says because samatha and vipassana are paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clearly (vipassana), one’s mind is one-pointed, or when one’s mind is one-pointed, he/she sees clearly. The atthakatha then continues with “as long as magga dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make samadhi and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.†<< A.Supee pointed out that samatha/samadhi in 8 magga-factor refers to 3 magga factors: sammasati, sammavayama, and sammasamadhi (samathisikkha). Vipassana in 8 magga-factor refers to sammasankappa, and sammadithti (pannasikkha). I also asked him a question why the tipitaka here put nana is stepwise manner: suta-, sila, samadhibhavana, and the dhammathitinana, is it a stepwise instruction? He said this manner of expounding is an explicit manner. It means to cover every different accumulation, or person. Every patisambhida person (refer only to the ariyan person) has different accumulation. One may attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining nana ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma, not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Best wishes. Num 14517 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Class Rob M Hello and welcome to the list from me. I have been following your posts with great interest. It is most unexpected to find someone from a non-Buddhist background with such a keen interest in the Abhidhamma, teaching to a Buddhist community! I think you are doing a great job with your classes, and I am amazed at the energy you seem to have to put into this. I particularly appreciate the way you regard the abhidhamma as something that has relevance to daily life, in other words, as part an parcel of the teachings as a whole. You say: > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > life, drive people to action. I think this is admirable. I would only add that, in addition to encouraging people to action, your objective is, I am sure, also to encourage the development of understanding. As you know, the quality of any action is determined by the quality of the accompanying citta. The key to developing any kusala quality (such as metta) is in being able to distinguish moments of that quality from moments that are not but which may seem like it. This of course requires a level of understanding; unfortunately for us all, sincerely wanting, intending to have more kusala is not a sufficient condition for its arising. One of the great things about the Abhidhamma is that it helps make us more aware of the subtle distinctions between different realities, and the very precise conditions necessary for their arising, so that in daily life we are not so inclined to take for kusala what in fact is akusala. As you will have realised, not all aspects of the abhidhamma lend themselves to an 'action-oriented' approach! Think of some of the universals such as contact, ekaggata. These accompany each an every moment of consciousness (so what action is there to be done?!), yet as individual dhammas they may never be apparent to us in the course of a lifetime. But understanding at a theoretical level something about their characteristic and function is nevertheless of great benefit to the development of understanding. Good luck with your continued studies and teaching, and I hope you find your time here useful. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi all, > > In a recent posting, Nina wrote, "Rob M, It may be a good idea if > you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next > for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject > also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful." > > This is great for me (and the students!). > > Here is a bit of background to put things into context. > > The Vihara runs a Sunday School. I suspect that there must be close > to 1000 kids registered, but not all show up each week. Some of the > parents want to take classes as well on Sunday mornings while their > kids are occupied. There is a one-year "Introduction to Buddhism" > course for adults. After the introductory course, many of the adults > follow this up with Abhidhamma classes the following year. This is > the path that I took. > > For four years, I studied Abhidhamma under Brother Teo. He really > knows his stuff. In January 2002, I voluntered to be Bro. > Teo's "apprentice" and take over the first 75 minutes of class. > After a brief break, Bro. Teo then teaches for 75 minutes followed > by another brief break and Vipassana mediation led by Bro. Teo. > > In his part of the class, Bro. Teo has somebody read a section from > ADL and then he gives more background information. After seven > months, we are just now on Chapter 4. For my portion of the class, I > want to put more focus on the "in daily life" aspect of Abhidhamma. > I try to focus on "relevance" and "action", leaving the job of > teaching the more theoretical stuff to Bro. Teo. I am interested in > the theoretical stuff, but Bro. Teo is better at it than I am. > > For the past few months, I have been going through the cetasikas, > drawing heavily on Nina's book, "Cetasikas". I am finished with the > akusala cetasikas and am now doing the universal kusala cetasikas. > Each week, I take one cetasika and start with the definition > (characteristic, function, manifestation, proximate cause). I then > summarize the relevant chapter from Nina's book. I then summarize > practical points from other materials downloaded from the Internet. > > For example, I recently talked on Alobha and then summarized Bhikkhu > Bodhi's book "Dana". Each week, I prepare class notes in bullet form > (typically one page) which is distributed. I also summarize the > stuff that I download from the Internet and hand it out as well. > Bro. Teo reviews all of my material before I distribute it. In the > past seven months, I have prepared more than 100 pages of handouts. > I make 75 copies of each handout and they all get used up. By the > end of 2002, I will have 150 - 200 pages of handouts and I will get > them printed up as "class notes" for next year. > > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help > from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked > up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am > looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- > academic group of parents. > > The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: > Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) > Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs > Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) > Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation > Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci-duccarita > Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) > Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) > > I am not sure that I can fill up a full 75 minutes of motivational > talk on Tatramajjhattata / six pairs on July 28. My "plan B" is to > bring in a monk for a portion of my time to discuss the process of > becoming a monk and describe a monk's daily life. Unfortunately, I > can't use this "get out of jail free card" more than once, so I have > to make sure that I have a full plate of materials for future > classes. > > Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but > I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three > abstinences more interesting. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14518 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I wish I had the time to compare Patanjali's yoga sutras with the noble eightfold path. At present I don't. While the discernment of anatta is at least explicitly unique to Buddhism, there are many other aspects of practice that seem to be similar or parallel. Since samatha and vipassana, as well as various samadhis/jhanas, focussing on the nature of the mind, and discerning realities occur in both; I would say they have some path-goals in common. Where they may diverge, one would of course go further and continue on the Buddhist path. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To say there are many similarities (or, as I think you are saying, many *apparent* simlarities), between 1 set of teachings and another doesn't seem to be saying a lot! But let me put the question another way. Is it in your view possible that there exists a teaching other than yoga that aspires to exactly the same goal as and which, if practised, brings exactly the same results as yoga (and yet is not simply yoga under another name)? Jon 14519 From: Num Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:58am Subject: typo:PTSM 3 Last two sentences of PTSM 3: <<...One may attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining NANA ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma,not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Change NANA to JHANA : <<...One may attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining JHANA ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma, not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Sorry, it's my ADHD trait ;P. Num 14520 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > I wish I had the time to compare Patanjali's yoga sutras with the noble > eightfold path. At present I don't. While the discernment of anatta is > at least explicitly unique to Buddhism, there are many other aspects of > practice that seem to be similar or parallel. Since samatha and > vipassana, as well as various samadhis/jhanas, focussing on the nature of > the mind, and discerning realities occur in both; I would say they have > some path-goals in common. Where they may diverge, one would of course go > further and continue on the Buddhist path. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > To say there are many similarities (or, as I think you are saying, many > *apparent* simlarities), between 1 set of teachings and another doesn't > seem to be saying a lot! But let me put the question another way. Is it > in your view possible that there exists a teaching other than yoga that > aspires to exactly the same goal as and which, if practised, brings > exactly the same results as yoga (and yet is not simply yoga under another > name)? > > Jon Among other psychophysical disciplines that come out of spiritual tradition, there are some things in common with yoga and some that diverge. For instance, t'ai chi and yoga both have techniques that increase circulation of prana/ch'i; but they do it in different ways. They both have the overall goal to spiritualize both the body and mind; they both have a set of postures through which the spiritual energy and awareness is brought into the body. Yoga has stretch which not only makes the body more flexible and open, but opens up of the nadis [psychic nerve passageways] as well; T'ai Chi opens the psychic nerve passageways without a lot of stretching. Taoist standing meditation aims towards a peaceful state in which the self is de-emphasized; Buddhist meditation also takes attention off the self. Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from the ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; he may have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while covering a much different series of elements. I think that like the genius he was, Buddha both took and transcended elements of the spiritual culture of his time, and in an evolved form brought them to the level of supreme wisdom and supreme vehicle. To see the evolutionary connections between systems is not to undermine Buddha's teaching; it is to see the way in which world, spiritual culture, and Buddha may interact, and perhaps give a context for understanding, which, living at a much later time, we may not easily have. Robert 14521 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/17/02 9:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > > > Howard > > > > Here's something else we manage to agree on ;-)) : > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of > > that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see > > them differently Accumulations! > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Very true indeed. > > > > However, your earlier comments in the same post have me puzzled. Just > > when I thought I was beginning to get a handle on phenomenalism, you post > > something that suggests it is equated with emptiness (or so it seems to > > me). You said: > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, indeed, that is the part [Jon: i.e., the part that supports > > the phenomenalist approach]. That part, as I see it, points out the > > "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out > > he "emptiness of the experiencer". > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > I'm afraid I cannot see what the 'emptiness' of the presently arising > > matter has to do with the phenomenalist approach, which I had gathered to > > be essentially the assertion that only what is being experienced at the > > present moment actually exists. > > > > Since the subject continues to come up, I hope you won't mind my asking > > you to make the connection. Thanks. > > > > Jon > > > =========================== > The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story. > It is the sense that in the seen, there is *only* the seen, *merely* the > seen, i.e., the visual image, and not some "thing out there" which is seen. > The "experienced" (i.e., the object) is empty from the phenomenalist > perspective, and I also believe from the Buddhist (especially the > Abhidhammist) perspective, in the sense that it is not an object in the > conventional sense existing "out there" independent of being known, but > rather, exists only in being the object of a citta - that is, its existence > is interdependent with the knowing of it. This type of dependency is one > aspect of the emptiness of the object, the other being its dependence on > previous conditions. The object, arammana, is dependent on the subject, > citta, and that dependency, that lack of independent status, is part of the > "emptiness" of the object. Similarly, the knowing citta is dependent on the > known aramanna, so that the subject lacks independent status, depending as it > does on the associated object. Again of course, that is not the only reason > for the emptiness of the citta - the citta (as well as its object) arises due > to previous conditions, most especially due to mental formations conditioned > by avijja. > There are no trees "out there", there are just mind-constructs that > *appear* to us as trees out there. But also, there is no hardness, nor > roughness, nor greenness and brownness, nor trunk-shape, nor leaf-shapes "out > there". There are just these paramattha-dhamma aramannas arising > interdependently with cittas, mutually and simultaneously conditioning each > other by co-occurrence (and also conditioned by previous states), and all > empty (i.e., lacking independent status, lacking self) due to that > conditioning. The specific conditionality that is the phenomenalist aspect is > that all of "this" is an internal stream of arisings, each an interdependent > vi~n~nana/namarupa (or citta/aramanna) pair. > > With metta, > Howard Howard, A possibly spurious question, but interested in your answer anyway: If there is no 'outside' phenomenon, what is the meaning of saying they are 'internal'? In other words, where, or in what faculty, do they take place; if there are no external environments, objects, senses, etc.? And how are we having this conversation? Best, Robert Ep. 14522 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Howard > ... ... ... > > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a > > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'. According to the > > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down > > (as given in both PED and CPED). If cankamana is the original, then the > > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss. This is > > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on > a > > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which > the > > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation'). > > Jon, > Could you tell me the difference between seated contemplation and sitting > meditation? Those seem pretty similar to me. > > Robert Ep. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I didn't intend to draw any particular distinction. It was more a case of > wanting to avoid using 'meditation', because of the different things it > means to different people. I've since realised that 'seated > contemplation' probably suffers from the same shortcoming, so I am now > using 'sitting', following Bh Bodhi's translation in 'Numerical Discourses > of the Buddha'. > > Jon I see. It seemed at the time that you were challenging the translation of 'meditation' rather than 'contemplation'; I take it this is not what you meant, but instead you were only challenging the idea that the 'walking' was meant to be a meditation, rather than merely a physical break. On that point, you appear to be saying that the tradition of walking meditation is a mistake, based on faulty understanding, or perhaps translation, and that the entire tradition of walking meditation, which spans the breadth of both Theravadan and Mahayana meditation practices, is in error. Do you have any specific statements from Suttas that this stems from? Do you have reason to doubt that walking meditation is a valid practice according to the Buddha? Best, Robert Ep. 14523 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:32pm Subject: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) Dear Jon, I think there is some danger in thinking that something that has not been explicitly mentioned is in fact the case, based on negative data, that is, a lack of data. One may use deductive reasoning to conclude that since meditation is not specifically mentioned in the Sutta below, that it is not meant to be utilized as a specialized way of realizing mindfulness. I would however say that this was saying that the suspect was guilty of murder because no witness came forward to say that he was not innocent. The reason that this is not an acceptable way of proving a crime is because it leaves open all the other possibilities that have also not been mentioned. To my mind, the litany below is on a particular subject: the practice of mindfulness throughout all of the activities of daily life. It is obviously an important subject and an important practice, and the Buddha makes this clear by outlining all the ways and conditions under which mindfulness can be practiced. Does this rule out the practice of meditation as a specialized practice that takes its place as a perfect complement to the daily living practice? Not at all. This is in no way implied, and there is no reason why the two would not coexist. I would even presume that this Sutta would be for both monks when they are going about their business and for lay people in their daily life; but the specialized instructions on meditation would be more appropriate for monks and might very well have a special Sutta reserved for it which would not be particularly promoted to lay people who do not have a lifestyle of meditative discipline. In fact, we do have a Sutta, one of the two most popular ones in the Pali Canon, which does exactly this: gives a strong set of instructions for meditation, based in breathing meditation and covering the way in which the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are uncovered through breathing meditation, that is of course: the Anapanasati Sutta - the Sutta of Mindfulness of the Breathing. Now if the Buddha devotes the Sutta you have quoted to all manner of positions and activities in which mindfulness may be practiced, but devotes an entire Sutta to mindfulness of the breathing in meditation; how do you logically conclude as you do that there is no added weight given to breathing meditation as a vehicle of mindfulness compared with all the other objects, positions and ways in which mindfulness may be practiced? It seems to me that you are not taking account of the evidence given by your most, perhaps only, reliable witness, the Buddha himself. Here is what he says, for instance, which has already been quoted on dsg recently, but is worthy of repetition in this discussion: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? ... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The Sutta then goes on for pages and pages of instruction on breathing meditation. I foind it hard to understand how this does not make the Buddha's point obvious, that breathing meditation is one of the great vehicles of mindfulness, recommended and detailed by him. It was in this prized community where he complimented the monks' extraordinary strides and their techniques. He mentions a number of other practices in an introductory manner, but why does he stop and focus on the breathing meditation as the most important of these? Why does he mention it last and accord all that detail to this practice? It is not a coincidence and it is clear that this is the practice among the others mentioned that the Buddha felt was the highest and most efficacious vehicle. You say that the Buddha did not emphasize meditation in general or breathing meditation in particular, and that it is given either no weight or equal weight to all other forms of the development of discernment. In fact you often say that there should be no special effort made to practice discernment formally, but only in daily living. I would like to know what role you think the anapanasati sutta plays, and why it was written, if not to emphasize the practice of breathing meditation - one of the few special practices, if I am correct, that merits its own Sutta. Best, Robert Ep ======================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three > main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one > kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of > physical living. > It makes sense to me. > > Robert Ep. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Well, if mindfulness was a matter of a particular 'practice to be done', > then I would be inclined to agree with you. But I happen to believe it's > not, and I see some significance in the fact that there is an absence of > walking-, sitting and lying down-practices in the texts. > > To my reading of the texts, the Buddha in fact positively indicates that > there is no distinction to be drawn as to posture, time of day, nature of > activity as far as the development of insight is concerned. I'm sure you > are already familiar with the passages from the Satipatthana Sutta copied > below, but they bear repeating. > > Jon > > Satipatthana Sutta > [The Modes of Deportment] > "And further, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when > he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he > understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am > lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ..." > > [The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension] > "And further, a bhikkhu, > -- in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising > clear comprehension; > -- in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... > -- in bending and in stretching, ... > -- in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, > ... > -- in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, ... > -- in defecating and in urinating, ... > -- in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in > sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person > practising clear comprehension." 14524 From: kkyaw88 Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Meditation ― the Science of Awareness Meditation ― the Science of Awareness What is the difference between science, art and religion? Science discovers, art invents, religion does both. The true religion discovers; the pseudo-religion invents. And down the ages it is the pseudo-religion that has prevailed over the human mind. It is nothing but fiction. It is closer to art, and absolutely against science. That's why there has never been a conflict between art and religion. They were, deep down, doing the same thing. Art was inventing objectively, and the so-called religion was inventing subjectively. They could join together very easily because their game was the same. And they joined hands all over the world. Art served the so-called religion for centuries. The beautiful churches, synagogues, temples ― for thousands of years art was doing nothing but serving religion. If you see the temples of Khajuraho in India.... Once there were one thousand temples in that place; now only ruins are there, but twenty or thirty temples are still intact, have survived. Just to see one temple you will need the whole day. It is so full of art, every nook and corner. It must have taken hundreds of years for thousands of sculptors to make one temple. You cannot find a single inch of space in the whole temple which has not been artistically created. One temple has thousands of statues on the outside of the temple, and that is the same about the remaining other thirty, and the same must have been true about the ruins of one thousand temples. Even in the ruins you can find treasures of art. I don't think there has ever been such beauty created out of stone anywhere else in the world. The structure of every temple is almost the same. On the outer side of the temple, the outer wall, there are what are called "mithun statues" ― men and women naked, loving, making love, in all the possible postures one can imagine or dream of. The only posture that is missing is known in India as the missionary posture ― man on top of woman: only that is missing ― that was brought by Christian missionaries. Otherwise the whole idea, to the Indian mind, looked ugly ― that the man should be on top of the woman. Seems to be unfair. The woman is more fragile, and this beast is on top of the beauty. No, Indians have never thought of that posture as human. In India it is known as the missionary posture because the first time they saw it, it was Christian missionaries in that posture; otherwise they had no idea that this could be done. But, except that, you will find all kinds of postures, because in India sexology has existed at least for five thousand years. The oldest sexual scripture is five thousand years old ― Vatsyayana's Kamasutras. And in the time of Vatsyayana, writing sutras on sex ― kama means sex ― maxims for sex, guidelines for sex, was not thought to be a bad act; Vatsyayana is respected as one of the great seers of India, and it is said that only a seer like Vatsyayana could have given those beautiful sutras. They reveal the intricacies and the mysteries of the energy of sex, and how it can be transformed. These temples in Khajuraho have, on the outer side, beautiful women, beautiful men, and all in love postures. Inside there are no love postures. Inside you will find the temple empty, not even a statue of God. The idea is that unless you pass through your sexuality with full awareness, in all its phases, in all its dimensions ― unless you come to a point when sex has no meaning for you...only then you enter the temple. Otherwise you are outside the temple, your interest is there. So that was a symbol that if you are still interested in sex, then the temple is not for you. But the message is not against sex; it is the outer wall of the temple, the temple is made of it, and you have to pass through the door and go beyond. And the beyond is nothing but utter emptiness. How many artists, craftsmen, sculptors, were employed to create one thousand temples, a whole city of temples, how many years it took! ― and this is not only one place: there is Ajanta, a group of caves which Buddhists created. The whole mountain...for miles they have carved caves inside the mountain. And inside the caves you will find tremendous work of art, everything is beautiful. Buddha's whole life in stone.... The first cave you enter, you find the birth of Buddha. And those are not small caves; each cave is at least four times bigger than this room. They have been carved in solid stone. The whole life of Buddha slowly unfolds in each cave, and in the last cave Buddha is sleeping. The statue must be as long as this room. It is the last moment of his life, when he asked his disciples, "If you have to ask any questions, ask me; otherwise I am going into eternal sleep ― forever." He has not even a pillow, just his hand used as a pillow. But such a huge statue, and so beautiful! There are the Ellora caves, again carved into the mountains. There are Hindu temples in Jagganath Puri, in Konarak. You cannot imagine for centuries what art has been doing. The beautiful cathedrals of Europe, and all the great artists...Michelangelo.... What were these people doing? They were serving religion. There was never a conflict anywhere in the world between religion and art. To me that signifies that the religion was pseudo; both were fictitious. There was no intrinsic opposition, they were moving in the same line of invention. Of course the artist was doing a far more authentic job, far more sincere than the priest, because what he was inventing was absolute fiction. There was no ground for it. His God was fiction, his heaven and hell were fiction. And these fictions have to be according to different people, where the religion existed. For example, in Tibet you can't have the same kind of heaven as in India, obviously. India is a hot country, so hot that the heaven has to be air-conditioned. Of course the word was not available at the time, but the description is absolutely of air-conditioning. It says, "Twenty-four hours a day cool air, fresh, fragrant, like spring. It is never summer, it is never the rainy season. It is never cold winter; just a cool ― not cold, but cool ― atmosphere all the year round. And it is always spring." But the Tibetan priest cannot accept it. They are so tortured by cold, their heaven is warm, heated ― it is never cold. They don't even mention cool, because to the people of Tibet even cool is not acceptable. It has to be warm. In Tibetan scriptures it says, "You must take at least one bath per year." When the Dalai Lama and his people started escaping from Tibet to India, many of them came to see me. Habits die hard: they were not taking baths or showers, even in India, and they were using the same kind of clothes that they were using in Tibet. I had to tell them, "I am very allergic to smells, so you sit in the other corner of the room, unless you learn how to clean your body and change your clothes every day." They said, "Every day! But the religious scriptures say once a year is enough!" It is going to be a different fiction in different countries. In Mohammedan countries, homosexuality was very prevalent ― is still prevalent. Strange, but it shows a significant fact about the human mind. The greatest punishment also is for a homosexual act if you are found out. You just have to be beheaded; there is no lesser punishment for it. Still it is the most prevalent thing, so prevalent that in the Koran the provision is made in heaven for the great religious sages: beautiful women are available, beautiful boys are also available. These are all fictions suiting the particular mind, climate, country, having no foundation in reality. Reality has not to be invented, it has to be discovered. It is already there. Hence science discovers, and true religion also discovers. But up to now, the religions that have been in existence in the world ― Christianity, Judaism, Mohammedanism, Hinduism ― they never felt any conflict with art, but they all felt tremendous antagonism towards science. Nobody has noted the fact. Why are they not against art, and why are they against science? ― because with art they can find some similarity. They can use art but they cannot use science, and they don't find the basic similarity. In fact they find science is doing just the opposite. They are inventing, they are creating something imaginary; science's whole work is to uncover the true, the real, that which is. Now, if science goes on succeeding, then the pseudo-religion becomes afraid, because the fiction will not be able to stand in front of truth. There will be no possibility of its winning ― even standing before truth is impossible. I have loved this story very much. One day darkness approached God and said, "I have never done any wrong to the sun, but it goes on torturing me. Wherever I go, it reaches, and I have to escape from there. I cannot even rest. I don't want to complain, but enough is enough. How long is it going to go on? And I am absolutely innocent. I have not done anything against the sun, I have not said anything against the sun. This is for the first time I am talking about it." God immediately ordered that the sun should be called. The sun was called, and God asked him, "Why are you torturing and bothering darkness?" The sun said, "What are you talking about? I have never met anything called darkness." And God looked around: where had the darkness gone? It had disappeared. The sun said, "Whenever you can manage to bring darkness in front of me, I am ready to apologize or whatsoever you say. But I don't know...perhaps without knowing, in unawareness I may have hurt him. But at least let me see the person ― the person who is complaining against me." The story says that the file of the case against the sun by darkness is still lying there. God has not been able to bring both sides together in front of him. Sometimes he succeeds and darkness comes; sometimes he succeeds and sun comes; but he has not been able to bring both together, and unless both are present the case cannot be decided. How can darkness come to face the sun? ― because darkness has no existence, it is just absence of light. So where the presence of light is, the absence cannot exist, cannot stand. And that is what pseudo-religion has been doing: creating fictions, exploiting people ― their imagination, their fear, their greed, their misery, their suffering, their poverty, everything. But the moment science started discovering things every religion became very alert, and ready to stop science in every possible way, because if truth is revealed, the untruth dies by itself; there is no need to kill it. It simply disappears. Hence I say to you that now is the time for the first religion to happen. For three hundred years the pseudo-religions have been fighting against science. Now they are tired, fed up, and know perfectly well that science is going to win; it has already won. So the old religions have lost their ground. You have to understand it. What you see in the churches and in the synagogues and in the mosques and in the temples, is the dead body of the religion that once was alive. It is only a corpse. But they are pretending that it is alive, hoping against hope that some miracle is going to happen. But no miracle ever happens. And no miracle is going to happen. Science has taken firm roots. Now, if you want anything in the world to be called religion, then you have to start from ABC, from the very scratch: a religion which is a science, and not a fiction. Just as science discovers in the objective world, outside, religion discovers in the inner world. What science is to the objective existence, religion is to the subjectivity. Their methods are exactly the same. Science calls it observation, religion calls it awareness. Science calls it experiment, religion calls it experience. Science wants you to go into the experiment without any prejudice in your mind, without any belief. You have to be open, available. You are not going to impose anything on reality. You are just going to be available to the reality whatsoever it is, even if it goes against all your ideas. You have to drop those ideas ― but the reality cannot be denied. The scientific endeavor is risking your mind for reality, putting your mind aside for reality. Reality counts, not what you think about it. Your thinking may be right or may be wrong, but the reality will decide it. Your mind is not going to decide what is right and what is wrong. The same is the situation of an authentic religion, a scientific religion. If I am allowed, I would like to describe science as two dimensions, the outer and the inner. The word religion can be dropped. You have two sciences: one, objective science; another, subjective science. And that's what is going to happen; whether you call it a religion or science does not matter ― names don't matter, but the methodology is exactly the same: you should not go in with a belief. No believer is ever going to know the truth. To believe is to miss. You have to put aside your ideology. Howsoever beautiful it looks, howsoever systematic it looks, howsoever philosophical you have made and decorated it, you have to put it aside and see within. That's the whole method of meditation, awareness, watchfulness. Meditation, in short, is putting your mind aside. So the people who say that meditation is a discipline of the mind are absolutely wrong. It is not a discipline of the mind, because if you discipline the mind, it is going to become stronger. It is better to put it aside when it is weaker, undisciplined. Once it is disciplined it is going to give you a tough fight. So it is more difficult for somebody who has been practicing concentration, because concentration is a mind phenomenon. Yes, it gives you a better mind, a disciplined mind, more penetrating. But to put aside this mind will be very difficult. First, you have given it strength, you have given it a certain crystallization. That's what happened to Gurdjieff and his whole school. It was a discipline of the mind. He called it crystallization, a very right word. The ordinary mind is a mess, a chaos. Gurdjieff's discipline gives you a crystallized mind, together, centered. And he was thinking that the more your mind is crystallized, the more you are coming closer to home. There he was wrong. A crystallized mind starts having certain powers. For example, it can read somebody's thoughts, which the ordinary mind cannot do. It cannot read its own thought ― how to read somebody else's thoughts! But crystallization is not easy. It is a difficult and long process ― years of work, work which will look absolutely unnecessary to you, but you have to do it because the teacher says so. For example, Gurdjieff's disciples will be told to dig a trench one mile long, and all the disciples are digging the trench the whole day, and by the evening, Gurdjieff comes to look at it and he says, "Fill it up. Only then will you get food. I should not find it there when I come for my morning walk." Now, absurd...! This man is mad, you will think. He was not mad; he was working very accurately, mathematically. The disciples started filling the trench. The whole day they were digging, the whole day they were thinking, "Why is this being dug?" Now they are thinking, "Why is it being filled again?" And nobody knows ― tomorrow morning he may say, "Dig it again." That man was known to do that. What he is trying to do is to make you not the ordinary weak mind, who needs all kinds of argument, convictions to go into anything...then too, it never goes. He is trying to teach you that you need not bother about why. That is the teacher's job, to think; your job is to do. And if a person goes on this way, year in year out, he strangely finds things happening in himself which have never happened before. For example, you are passing by his side and suddenly he reads your thought. It happened: One of my students, when I was teaching in the university, was very interested in Gurdjieff. So he asked me, "I am not asking whether Gurdjieff is right or wrong. Please just explain to me what the methodology is that Gurdjieff was using, and how I can use it." I said, "If that is so, I can explain to you the method. But l am not responsible for what happens to you then...." He said, "Of course you are not responsible." "...Because you are not giving me even a chance to say whether it is right or wrong; you simply want to know." I said, "Just as a professor, I am telling you this is the method. You practice it. The method is simple. Do anything, for example jogging.... There comes a moment when you feel you cannot jog any more; now, that is the moment you have to jog. And suddenly you will be surprised that if you continue jogging there is a new release of energy...and you were feeling that it was impossible to jog any more." There are three layers of energy. One: the ordinary energy which you use in daily work: eating, walking, working, typing, this and that, just the superficial layer. Underneath is a bigger layer of energy. If, doing anything, you come to the point where the thin top layer is finished, that does not mean that your energy is finished; only the top layer is finished. Then the top layer is saying, "Stop." Don't stop, continue. Soon the second layer is broken open, and becomes available. You were thinking you cannot jog, and now you can jog for hours! Then again a point comes when you feel, "If I go on jogging now, I am going to fall down and die." It is not just tiredness ― it is almost death. First it was tiredness, now it is almost like death. This is the third layer in you, which is vast. If you continue and you say, "Okay, if death comes it is okay, but I am not going to stop," the third layer opens up, and you have never seen such energy in you. That sometimes accidentally happens to you. You are tired. The whole day's work and everything...and suddenly your house catches fire! You were thinking to just jump into bed and forget the whole world...and the house is burning! You forget all about your tiredness. Suddenly you are fresh, young ― as fresh and as young as you have never been, and you are running here and there, and doing all kinds of things ― perhaps it will take the whole night to put the fire out. And you will do it, and you will not feel tired. What has happened? The same thing that Gurdjieff was trying to do methodologically. But once your mind becomes aware of these three layers, with each layer new powers are attached. With the ordinary layer you cannot do much. Scientists say that even the most talented person uses only fifteen percent of his energy ― the most talented, it is not about everybody. An Albert Einstein uses perhaps fifteen percent of his energy. The average, ordinary person never goes above seven percent. Einstein, using fifteen percent, becomes aware of many things which you are not aware of. He lives in a different universe than you live in. His universe is so vast you cannot even imagine it. It was said that while he was alive there were only twelve people in the whole world who understood exactly what the theory of relativity means ― only twelve persons all over the world who understood exactly what he means! But if you use thirty percent of your energy, fifty percent of your energy...who knows what is in store? So this student of mine.... He was a Mohammedan, and Mohammedans are fanatic people, very stubborn; trustworthy, but idiotic. Idiots are always trustworthy because they cannot doubt, they cannot suspect. So what I told him to work upon, he started working on it. He was a woodcutter's son, so I said, "You go with your father and cut wood as much as you can. And when you feel you are going to fall down, you cannot raise the ax again, that is the moment that you have to raise it. Then is the right time to begin work. Up to then it was only superficial. From there Gurdjieff comes in." He did it. One day he came running to me, very much shaken and afraid. He said, "What is happening? I was going in the bus and I just thought...a strange thought, I had never thought such thoughts before. A man was sitting in front of me with his back towards me and I just thought: just by my thinking can he be made to fall from his seat onto the floor of the bus? And the man fell!" He was just thinking this: "Can it happen?" and it happened. He became very frightened, but he thought perhaps it may be a coincidence, so he tried it on another man ― and the other man fell! The driver said, "What is going on?" One man falls for no reason at all, because there is no jerk, no turn. Then another man sitting just falls down, and he is not asleep; his eyes are open. And my student asked those two persons what happened. They said, "We don't know." But he thought that before he came to me, he should try one time more, and better to try on the driver. He tried it on the driver, and he caused a whole accident of the bus in which two persons died and many were injured. Then he came running to me. He said, "What is happening?" Now, unknowingly he had got that energy by which he could project ideas into somebody's head, and they would work. Now his mind was becoming crystallized, coming closer. It was only the second layer. I told him, "Do you want to enter into the third layer? ― because in the third layer you can cause the death of somebody. If you trust yourself, I can give you the method to go into the third. But then, that power ― are you capable of not misusing it?" He said, "No. I am capable of misusing it. And forgive me, I was wrong when from the very beginning I said to you, 'Don't say to me whether Gurdjieff is right or wrong, just give me the method' ― because I was reading the book and I was so impressed. I don't want to go into it. This is dangerous." Concentration, discipline, yoga discipline, other methods of chanting mantras: They all reinforce your mind and make it stronger, capable of using the powers that are in your subconscious, in your unconscious, in your collective unconscious. If you are not aware ― and you are not aware ― this is like giving a sword, a naked sword to a child to play with. Either he is going to hurt himself or kill somebody, but something wrong is going to happen. You cannot conceive that anything good is going to happen out of it. The brahmins in India have used the discipline of the mind for thousands of years to keep the whole country enslaved under them. In India, in five thousand years no revolution has happened. And there were all the possibilities for revolution to happen thousands of times in these years. The brahmins have made one fourth of India untouchable....Those people cannot touch you. Not only can't the people touch you, they are so dirty ― they are suffering from their bad, evil karmas of past life ― that even their shadow falling on you is enough to disturb your existence. You have to take a bath immediately. Do you see the stupid idea? The shadow of a person passing over you has made you dirty. A shadow has no existence! A shadow cannot touch you. A shadow cannot carry any contamination. In India, for thousands of years, one fourth of the country has lived in such slavery that they have to walk with a bell around their neck, just like you put a bell around the neck of a cow or a buffalo, so you know when the cow is coming because the bell goes on ringing. So they had to keep a bell continually ringing, so anybody hearing it can escape, even from their shadow. And at the back they had to attach a long brush, like a tail. That was to go on cleaning the path on which they are traveling, because the shadow is falling there, and the shadow has to be cleaned because some brahmin may come afterwards and walk on the earth where some untouchable, some achhoot ― that is their word ― has passed. Now, what power had these brahmins? They were not kings, they had no armies; they had no temporal power of any kind. But they had a tremendously disciplined mind, which became more and more disciplined with every generation. Alexander the Great remembers it in his memoirs.... He came to India before Jesus Christ, and this was the thing that impressed him the most ― of course he came across thousands of things which impressed him, but this was the thing that impressed him most. He was the disciple of Aristotle. Socrates' disciple was Plato, Plato's disciple was Aristotle, Aristotle's disciple was Alexander the Great. When he was returning after invading India, he remembered that Aristotle had asked him, "When you come back bring the four Vedas, which Hindus think are the only God-written books. And of course they are the ancientmost books in the world, so, God-written or not, they are the ancientmost treasure. Bring the four Vedas with you, I don't want anything else." So he inquired, "Can I find a person who has all the four Vedas?" People said, "Yes, in our village there is a great brahmin scholar ― ancient, very old, perhaps two hundred years old ― and he has all the four Vedas. They are inherited, so there's no fear that anything can be wrong in them. They are thousands of years old ― you can get them from him." Alexander went to the brahmin, asked the old man ― he had never seen such an old man. In fact, he had never seen such a man. The old man looked into his eyes and said, "Okay. Tomorrow morning, as the sun rises, I will give you the four Vedas." Alexander was immensely happy. He said, "Whatsoever you want me to do for you, you have done such a great favor for me...because I was told that 'no brahmin will give you the Vedas. Even if you give your whole empire, no brahmin is going to give you the whole Vedas.' And you have not asked anything." He said, "No. No brahmin asks anything. Whatsoever he wants, he gets. Those who beg, they are not brahmins. You come tomorrow morning and you will see." The whole night Alexander could not sleep. What is going to happen tomorrow morning? What kind of man is he? And what the old man did.... He had four sons: he called all four sons, sat around the home fire, which had been kept alive for thousands of years, burning twenty-four hours a day, day in, day out, year in, year out ― they all sat around that fire, and the father said, "You take, each of you, one Veda. Read one page and drop it into the fire; read another page and drop it into the fire. Before the morning rises you have to finish all the four Vedas." They did what the father said, and by the morning, when Alexander reached there ― and he reached a little early, he was so curious ― he could not understand what he saw. What was happening? They were throwing the last pages into the fire. Alexander said, "What is going on?" He said, "Nothing. You take these, my four sons. These are the four Vedas. This is Rig Veda, this is Yajur Veda, this is Sam Veda, this is Athrva Veda." Alexander said, "But I was asking about the books." He said, "They remember every word. That's what we have been doing the whole night." He asked, "How can a person remember the whole book in one night?" The old brahmin said, "You don't know brahmins. This is our discipline. Our whole discipline is to sharpen the memory to such a stage that once you have read anything, there is no way to forget it." This story came into the hands of another great king, Akbar, a Mohammedan. He could not believe it, because the Vedas are big, voluminous collections. He inquired in his court: "Find somebody who can repeat this incident in front of me." One man stood up and said, "This is nothing. I know a brahmin in my village who can do a thousand times more. This is nothing." The man was called to the court of the great Akbar. And in his court there were scholars of Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, Prakrit, Pali ― other ancient languages ― because he was very scholarly himself and he wanted the topmost scholars to be around him. There were thirty people who knew thirty different languages. And this was the arrangement that was made: this man who was brought from the village looked like a villager, a simple brahmin.... This was the arrangement, that everybody should keep in his mind one sentence in his own language. So there would be thirty sentences in thirty languages ― and this man knows only one language, Sanskrit, so in those thirty languages Sanskrit was not included. This man will go to the first man; the first man will say the first word of his sentence, and a gong will be struck. Then he will go to the second man who will say his first word, and there will again be a gong. He will go to the thirty people again and again: second round, second word, a gong; third round...until all the sentences are complete. And then he will repeat all the thirty sentences...and he did it. Must have been a great computer! But if computers can do it, why not mind? If mind can create computers...and I have not heard about any computer yet creating a mind. The mind has much more power. You can discipline it in many ways, and the pseudo-religions have developed these methods of concentration. Remember, concentration is not meditation. Because concentration is a discipline of the mind and meditation is putting the mind aside. In fact the English word meditation is not the right word, because in the West nothing like meditation has ever happened. The Sanskrit word is dhyana. The problem was the same when Buddhist monks went to China; they could not find the right word to translate dhyana into Chinese, so they wrote dhyana, which to the Chinese sounded like "zana." Hence the Japanese Zen; it is a transfiguration of the word dhyana. "Meditation" gives again the wrong idea, as if you are meditating upon something ― as if it is an activity ― not much different from concentration. You are concentrating on something, you are contemplating on something, you are meditating on something, but you are always concerned with something. And what dhyana is, is dropping all objects, dropping anything on which you can concentrate, contemplate, meditate; dropping everything, nothing is left ― only the one who was concentrating, only the one who was contemplating. That pure awareness is dhyana. In English there is no right word, so you have to understand that we are using "meditation" for dhyana. Dhyana means a state of being where there is no thought, no object, no dream, no desire, nothing ― just emptiness. In that emptiness you come to know your self. You discover the truth. You discover your subjectivity. It is perfect silence. There are methods to put aside the mind, just as there are methods to discipline the mind. But in the West, and more so in America...because if the West is bad, America is worse. I have been looking at American books ― not now; for four years I have not touched a book. All the books that are best sellers in America are somehow concerned with how to increase your willpower, how to influence people and win friends, how to grow rich, mind over matter...but they are all talking about the discipline of the mind. Certainly if you discipline the mind you are a better competitor, you can fulfill your ambition more easily. You can manipulate people more easily, you can exploit people more easily, you can use others as a means to your end. Friedrich Nietzsche has written a book, Will to Power. That is the very essence of the whole Western effort: will-to-power. Will-to-power needs first you should have willpower. And willpower is another name for your mind discipline, crystallized. No, these methods won't do. You have to learn methods to put the mind aside. It is already too powerful; don't make it more powerful, because you are feeding your own enemy. It is already crystallized. Your school, your college, your university, they are all doing that. After remaining nine years a professor in university, I resigned. I said to the vice-chancellor, "I cannot do this work because this is destroying people." He said, "What do you mean, that this means destroying people? Students love you. They won't allow you to leave. And I don't see on what grounds you are saying that you cannot continue to destroy people." I said, "You will not understand, because although you are born in India, you don't know India. You have been educated in the West" ― he had remained his whole life in the West. "All these books, all these psychologies that I have to teach, I am teaching against myself. I know these are going to do harm to these people. Their minds are already in a bad shape, and now they will become stronger. Their chains will be far stronger, their slavery of the mind will be far stronger." The pseudo-religions depend upon disciplining the mind. The real religion's first work is to put the mind aside. And it is, in a way, very simple. Those disciplines are very difficult. To train the mind for concentration is very difficult, because it goes on revolting, it goes on falling back into its old habits. You pull it again, and it escapes. You bring it again to the subject you were concentrating on and suddenly you find you are thinking of something else, you have forgotten what you are concentrating upon. It is not an easy job. But to put it aside is a very simple thing ― not difficult at all. All that you have to do is to watch. Whatsoever is going on in your mind, don't interfere, don't try to stop it. Do not do anything, because whatsoever you do will become a discipline. So do not do anything at all. Just watch. Watching is not a doing. Just as you watch the sunset or the clouds in the sky or the people passing on the street, watch the traffic of thoughts and dreams, nightmares ― relevant, irrelevant, consistent, inconsistent, anything that is going on. And it is always rush hour. You simply watch; you stand by the side unconcerned. The pseudo-religions don't allow you to remain unconcerned, because, they say, greed is bad. So if a thought of greed comes you jump to prevent it; otherwise you will become greedy. Anger is bad; if an angry thought passes by, you immediately jump ― you have to change it, you have to be kind and compassionate, and you have to love your enemy just like yourself. If something against your neighbor comes up...no, you have to love your neighbor just like yourself. So all the old religions have given you ideas of what is right and what is wrong ― and if the wrong thing is passing by, you certainly have to stop it. You have to interfere, you have to jump in and pull that thing out. You miss the point. That's why I don't say to you what is right and what is wrong. All that I say is: to watch is right; not to watch is wrong. I make it absolutely simplified: Be watchful. It is none of your business ― if greed is passing by, let it pass; if anger is passing by, let it pass. Who are you to interfere? Why are you so much identified with your mind? Why do you start thinking, "I am greedy...I am angry"? There is only a thought of anger passing by. Let it pass; you just watch. There is an ancient story.... A man who has gone out of his town comes back and finds that his house is on fire. It was one of the most beautiful houses in the town, and the man loved the house. Many people were ready to give double price for the house, but he had never agreed for any price, and now it is just burning before his eyes. And thousands of people have gathered, but nothing can be done. The fire has spread so far that even if you try to put it out, nothing will be saved. So he becomes very sad. His son comes running, and whispers something in his ear: "Don't be worried. I sold it yesterday, and at a very good price ― three times.... The offer was so good I could not wait for you. Forgive me." But the father said, "Good, if you have sold it for three times more than the original price of the house." Then the father is also a watcher, with other watchers. Just a moment before he was not a watcher, he was identified. It is the same house, the same fire, everything is the same ― but now he is not concerned. He is enjoying it just as everybody else is enjoying. Then the second son comes running, and he says to the father, "What are you doing? You are smiling ― and the house is on fire?" The father said, "Don't you know, your brother has sold it." He said, "He had talked about selling it, but nothing has been settled yet, and the man is not going to purchase it now." Again, everything changes. Tears which had disappeared, have come back to the father's eyes, his smile is no more there, his heart is beating fast. But the watcher is gone. He is again identified. And then the third son comes, and he says, "That man is a man of his word. I have just come from him. He said, 'It doesn't matter whether the house is burned or not, it is mine. And I am going to pay the price that I have settled for. Neither you knew, nor I knew that the house would catch on fire.'" Again the father is a watcher. The identity is no more there. Actually nothing is changing; just the idea that "I am the owner, I am identified somehow with the house," makes the whole difference. The next moment he feels, "I am not identified. Somebody else has purchased it, I have nothing to do with it; let the house burn." This simple methodology of watching the mind, that you have nothing to do with it.... Most of its thoughts are not yours but from your parents, your teachers, your friends, the books, the movies, the television, the newspapers. Just count how many thoughts are your own, and you will be surprised that not a single thought is your own. All are from other sources, all are borrowed ― either dumped by others on you, or foolishly dumped by yourself upon yourself, but nothing is yours. The mind is there, functioning like a computer; literally it is a bio-computer. You will not get identified with a computer. If the computer gets hot, you won't get hot. If the computer gets angry and starts giving signals in four letter words, you will not be worried. You will see what is wrong, where something is wrong. But you remain detached. Just a small knack...I cannot even call it a method because that makes it heavy; I call it a knack. Just by doing it, one day suddenly you are able to do it. Many times you will fail; it's nothing to be worried about...no loss, it is natural. But just doing it, one day it happens. Once it has happened, once you have even for a single moment become the watcher, you know now how to become the watcher ― the watcher on the hills, far away. And the whole mind is there deep down in the dark valley, and you are not to do anything about it. The most strange thing about the mind is, if you become a watcher it starts disappearing. Just like the light disperses darkness, watchfulness disperses the mind, its thoughts, its whole paraphernalia. So meditation is simply watchfulness, awareness. And that reveals ― it is nothing to do with inventing. It invents nothing; it simply discovers that which is there. And what is there? You enter and you find infinite emptiness, so tremendously beautiful, so silent, so full of light, so fragrant, that you have entered into the kingdom of God. In my words, you have entered into godliness. And once you have been in this space, you come out and you are a totally new person, a new man. Now you have your original face. All masks have disappeared. You will live in the same world, but not in the same way. You will be among the same people but not with the same attitude, and the same approach. You will live like a lotus in water: in the water, but absolutely untouched by water. Religion is the discovery of this lotus flower within. Osho, From Unconsciousness to Consciousness, #19 Copyright © 2002 Osho International Foundation 14525 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Nina Thanks for taking the trouble to check the Thera- Theri-Gatha. It is interesting that you could so easily come up with many instances of enlightenment being attained other than while 'sitting'. It shows I think that understanding of dhammas can be developed at any time, even while doing the most mundane of chores. This bears out what is said in the Satipatthana Sutta about mindfulness and clear comprehension being present at any and all times. Very inspiring. Thanks. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the > following: > > op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>: > And in the > > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the > > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. > > > > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as > something > > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting > for > > the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries > this > > implication for many readers. > >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am > > misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there > were > > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while > > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' > > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not > 'sitting' > > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in > the > > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most > (but > > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I > wonder > > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work > out > > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote. > > N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of > the > Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who > attained > enlightenment: > > Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it > reminded > her of impermanence and she became a non-returner. > no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and > fell. > This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor > mortal > frame" and she attained arahatship. > No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl > overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship. > You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and > rest. > Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping > her, because she had some trouble with her leg. > no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water > and > the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became > an > arahat. > > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances > also of > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of > Dhamma. > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of > daily > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have > so > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better > use > of them. > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > with appreciation, > Nina. 14526 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. --- Howard wrote: [Nina:] > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances also > of > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of Dhamma. > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have so > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better use > of them. > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > with appreciation, > Nina. > ================================ [Howard:] One comes across very similar stories in the Zen tradition, such as someone becoming enlightened after a stone chip sharply hits a bamboo, or a bowl breaks upon falling to the ground. It is like a sudden breeze causing a ripe fruit to fall from the tree. An unripe fruit would not fall even in a typhoon, but a ripe fruit falls easily. Much ripening has to come first, much cultivation.To mix metaphors, the wind is just the final straw to break the camel's back. =============================== I'm not sure what you see as being the wind/final straw in question. From my reading of the Pali texts it seems that the final moment leading to enlightenment is simply more of the same kind of 'effort' and understanding that brought the person to the brink of enlightenment in the first place. In other words, there was not one 'practice' for the lead-up and another (or something else) bringing the final breakthrough, but more and more of the same thing throughout. Jon 14527 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Goggy Many thanks for this info. I'll look the sutta up as soon as I have a chance. Good to see you back after your break. Jon --- goglerr wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > Hello Jon, > So sorry to reply u this late. You see, I was out of town for more > than a week and I just got back today. I'm trying to catch up with > all the messages. > > Well, the sutta is in Anguttara Nikaya, III, 29. It was translated as > alley-walk discourse in the PTS. I find that this translation is not > so good. If u could look up in the Pali text would be better. > > Goglerr 14528 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Howard Thanks for this careful explanation of the phenomenalist position. Without going into every aspect of your post, I do see some major points of departure, the main one of which I mention below. As I understand the teachings, while the present *experience* of hardness is dependent on the co-arising consciousness, the arising of the hardness itself in this sense-sphere is not said to be dependent on that consciousness, but is said to be conditioned by other factors. So while the 2 (nama and rupa) are interdependent as far as being the present moment of experience is concerned, they are not interdependent insofar as their arising in this plane of existence is concerned. Would this in your view mark a distinction between the 2 bodies of teaching? Jon ====================== --- Howard wrote: The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story. It is the sense that in the seen, there is *only* the seen, *merely* the seen, i.e., the visual image, and not some "thing out there" which is seen. The "experienced" (i.e., the object) is empty from the phenomenalist perspective, and I also believe from the Buddhist (especially the Abhidhammist) perspective, in the sense that it is not an object in the conventional sense existing "out there" independent of being known, but rather, exists only in being the object of a citta - that is, its existence is interdependent with the knowing of it. This type of dependency is one aspect of the emptiness of the object, the other being its dependence on previous conditions. The object, arammana, is dependent on the subject, citta, and that dependency, that lack of independent status, is part of the "emptiness" of the object. Similarly, the knowing citta is dependent on the known aramanna, so that the subject lacks independent status, depending as it does on the associated object. Again of course, that is not the only reason for the emptiness of the citta - the citta (as well as its object) arises due to previous conditions, most especially due to mental formations conditioned by avijja. There are no trees "out there", there are just mind-constructs that *appear* to us as trees out there. But also, there is no hardness, nor roughness, nor greenness and brownness, nor trunk-shape, nor leaf-shapes "out there". There are just these paramattha-dhamma aramannas arising interdependently with cittas, mutually and simultaneously conditioning each other by co-occurrence (and also conditioned by previous states), and all empty (i.e., lacking independent status, lacking self) due to that conditioning. The specific conditionality that is the phenomenalist aspect is that all of "this" is an internal stream of arisings, each an interdependent vi~n~nana/namarupa (or citta/aramanna) pair. With metta, Howard 14529 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/24/02 12:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from > the > ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; > he may > have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while > covering a much different series of elements. > > ========================== I'm terrible on history, but I think that the Buddha came before Patanjali. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14530 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/24/02 12:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Howard, > A possibly spurious question, but interested in your answer anyway: > > If there is no 'outside' phenomenon, what is the meaning of saying they are > 'internal'? In other words, where, or in what faculty, do they take place; > if > there are no external environments, objects, senses, etc.? > > And how are we having this conversation? > > ============================ It's a good question. There is the seeming of externality, but it is only a seeming. What seem to be "out there" are actually concepts/percepts. What actually are observed are the paramattha dhammas, which, when observed directly, and not as characteristics of "external objects", do not appear as external. As far as how we are having this conversation, my phenomenalism is not a solipsism, but is very close to the "radical empiricism" of William James, in which multiple mindstreams interact, much like the Indra's Net (to steal an image from the Garland Sutra of Mahayana). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14531 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:28pm Subject: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- Dear Rob. E., I might have misunderstood your intent but you seemed to be suggesting that anapanasati because it is a popular sutta is the one recommended for all followers including laypeople. This seems different from my reading of the Pali; For example Mahanama - a great layfollower visted the Buddha: "" For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?" "Excellent, Mahanama, excellent! It is fitting for clansmen like you to approach the Tathagata and ask, 'For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?' [.........] ] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: [.....]' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. [...] "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children. [2] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. [..]" Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Dhamma while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children."endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/Mahanama.htm So I think that anapanasati wasn't recommended for all. It was for some - especially to the great monks who could develop this (it is the object even the Buddha's take on the eve of their enlightenment- a very superlative object). It is very excellent for those with the accumulations and who live in seclusion, but I don't think the Pali texts say that everyone must develop it. Robert Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > I think there is some danger in thinking that something that has not been > explicitly mentioned is in fact the case, based on negative data, that is, a lack > of data. > > One may use deductive reasoning to conclude that since meditation is not > specifically mentioned in the Sutta below, that it is not meant to be utilized as > a specialized way of realizing mindfulness. I would however say that this was > saying that the suspect was guilty of murder because no witness came forward to > say that he was not innocent. The reason that this is not an acceptable way of > proving a crime is because it leaves open all the other possibilities that have > also not been mentioned. > > To my mind, the litany below is on a particular subject: the practice of > mindfulness throughout all of the activities of daily life. It is obviously an > important subject and an important practice, and the Buddha makes this clear by > outlining all the ways and conditions under which mindfulness can be practiced. > Does this rule out the practice of meditation as a specialized practice that takes > its place as a perfect complement to the daily living practice? Not at all. This > is in no way implied, and there is no reason why the two would not coexist. I > would even presume that this Sutta would be for both monks when they are going > about their business and for lay people in their daily life; but the specialized > instructions on meditation would be more appropriate for monks and might very well > have a special Sutta reserved for it which would not be particularly promoted to > lay people who do not have a lifestyle of meditative discipline. > > In fact, we do have a Sutta, one of the two most popular ones in the Pali Canon, > which does exactly this: gives a strong set of instructions for meditation, based > in breathing meditation and covering the way in which the Four Foundations of > Mindfulness are uncovered through breathing meditation, that is of course: the > Anapanasati Sutta - the Sutta of Mindfulness of the Breathing. Now if the Buddha > devotes the Sutta you have quoted to all manner of positions and activities in > which mindfulness may be practiced, but devotes an entire Sutta to mindfulness of > the breathing in meditation; how do you logically conclude as you do that there is > no added weight given to breathing meditation as a vehicle of mindfulness compared > with all the other objects, positions and ways in which mindfulness may be > practiced? > > It seems to me that you are not taking account of the evidence given by your most, > perhaps only, reliable witness, the Buddha himself. > > Here is what he says, for instance, which has already been quoted on dsg recently, > but is worthy of repetition in this discussion: > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, > of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, > brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of > reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to > their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, > bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring > the four frames of reference to their culmination? ... > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > The Sutta then goes on for pages and pages of instruction on breathing meditation. > I foind it hard to understand how this does not make the Buddha's point obvious, > that breathing meditation is one of the great vehicles of mindfulness, recommended > and detailed by him. It was in this prized community where he complimented the > monks' extraordinary strides and their techniques. He mentions a number of other > practices in an introductory manner, but why does he stop and focus on the > breathing meditation as the most important of these? Why does he mention it last > and accord all that detail to this practice? It is not a coincidence and it is > clear that this is the practice among the others mentioned that the Buddha felt > was the highest and most efficacious vehicle. You say that the Buddha did not > emphasize meditation in general or breathing meditation in particular, and that it > is given either no weight or equal weight to all other forms of the development of > discernment. In fact you often say that there should be no special effort made to > practice discernment formally, but only in daily living. > > I would like to know what role you think the anapanasati sutta plays, and why it > was written, if not to emphasize the practice of breathing meditation - one of the > few special practices, if I am correct, that merits its own Sutta. > > Best, > Robert Ep > > ======================= > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three > > main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one > > kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of > > physical living. > > It makes sense to me. > > > > Robert Ep. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > Well, if mindfulness was a matter of a particular 'practice to be done', > > then I would be inclined to agree with you. But I happen to believe it's > > not, and I see some significance in the fact that there is an absence of > > walking-, sitting and lying down-practices in the texts. > > > > To my reading of the texts, the Buddha in fact positively indicates that > > there is no distinction to be drawn as to posture, time of day, nature of > > activity as far as the development of insight is concerned. I'm sure you > > are already familiar with the passages from the Satipatthana Sutta copied > > below, but they bear repeating. > > > > Jon > > > > Satipatthana Sutta > > [The Modes of Deportment] > > "And further, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when > > he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he > > understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am > > lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ..." > > > > [The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension] > > "And further, a bhikkhu, > > -- in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising > > clear comprehension; > > -- in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... > > -- in bending and in stretching, ... > > -- in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, > > ... > > -- in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, ... > > -- in defecating and in urinating, ... > > -- in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in > > sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person > > practising clear comprehension." 14532 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/24/02 5:34:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for this careful explanation of the phenomenalist position. > Without going into every aspect of your post, I do see some major points > of departure, the main one of which I mention below. > > As I understand the teachings, while the present *experience* of hardness > is dependent on the co-arising consciousness, the arising of the hardness > itself in this sense-sphere is not said to be dependent on that > consciousness, but is said to be conditioned by other factors. > > So while the 2 (nama and rupa) are interdependent as far as being the > present moment of experience is concerned, they are not interdependent > insofar as their arising in this plane of existence is concerned. > > Would this in your view mark a distinction between the 2 bodies of > teaching? > > Jon > > =================================== It's not that there is a "departure" between the Dhamma and phenomenalism, but rather that there is *much* more to the Dhamma than phenomenalism. As I wrote, "The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story." (Cittas, arammanas, and cetasikas arise interdependently, but also in dependence on previous conditions.) I see the Dhamma, in part, as an instance of phenomenalism, but that aspect of the Dhamma is just a little piece of it. I know of no other body of thought to come close in breadth, depth and magnificence to the Buddha's Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14533 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:35pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Class Hi Jon, Thanks for your words of encouragement. It seems to come naturally to me and I really do it with joy, so I must have been an Abhidhamma teacher in a previous life. I've already benefited a lot from this group. Nina and others have given ideas and input to help me present the six pairs. I've also started to get feedback on "Metta in Daily Life". You are correct that I can't link everyhting to action. However, I ry to make it interesting and relevant to non-academic laypeople. The objective is panna. Bro. Teo, who takes a more technical, theoretical approach, and I seem to have complementary styles. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > Hello and welcome to the list from me. > > I have been following your posts with great interest. It is most > unexpected to find someone from a non-Buddhist background with such a keen > interest in the Abhidhamma, teaching to a Buddhist community! I think you > are doing a great job with your classes, and I am amazed at the energy you > seem to have to put into this. > > I particularly appreciate the way you regard the abhidhamma as something > that has relevance to daily life, in other words, as part an parcel of the > teachings as a whole. > > You say: > > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > > life, drive people to action. > > I think this is admirable. I would only add that, in addition to > encouraging people to action, your objective is, I am sure, also to > encourage the development of understanding. As you know, the quality of > any action is determined by the quality of the accompanying citta. The > key to developing any kusala quality (such as metta) is in being able to > distinguish moments of that quality from moments that are not but which > may seem like it. This of course requires a level of understanding; > unfortunately for us all, sincerely wanting, intending to have more kusala > is not a sufficient condition for its arising. One of the great things > about the Abhidhamma is that it helps make us more aware of the subtle > distinctions between different realities, and the very precise conditions > necessary for their arising, so that in daily life we are not so inclined > to take for kusala what in fact is akusala. > > As you will have realised, not all aspects of the abhidhamma lend > themselves to an 'action-oriented' approach! Think of some of the > universals such as contact, ekaggata. These accompany each an every > moment of consciousness (so what action is there to be done?!), yet as > individual dhammas they may never be apparent to us in the course of a > lifetime. But understanding at a theoretical level something about their > characteristic and function is nevertheless of great benefit to the > development of understanding. > > Good luck with your continued studies and teaching, and I hope you find > your time here useful. > > Jon > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi all, > > > > In a recent posting, Nina wrote, "Rob M, It may be a good idea if > > you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next > > for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject > > also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful." > > > > This is great for me (and the students!). > > > > Here is a bit of background to put things into context. > > > > The Vihara runs a Sunday School. I suspect that there must be close > > to 1000 kids registered, but not all show up each week. Some of the > > parents want to take classes as well on Sunday mornings while their > > kids are occupied. There is a one-year "Introduction to Buddhism" > > course for adults. After the introductory course, many of the adults > > follow this up with Abhidhamma classes the following year. This is > > the path that I took. > > > > For four years, I studied Abhidhamma under Brother Teo. He really > > knows his stuff. In January 2002, I voluntered to be Bro. > > Teo's "apprentice" and take over the first 75 minutes of class. > > After a brief break, Bro. Teo then teaches for 75 minutes followed > > by another brief break and Vipassana mediation led by Bro. Teo. > > > > In his part of the class, Bro. Teo has somebody read a section from > > ADL and then he gives more background information. After seven > > months, we are just now on Chapter 4. For my portion of the class, I > > want to put more focus on the "in daily life" aspect of Abhidhamma. > > I try to focus on "relevance" and "action", leaving the job of > > teaching the more theoretical stuff to Bro. Teo. I am interested in > > the theoretical stuff, but Bro. Teo is better at it than I am. > > > > For the past few months, I have been going through the cetasikas, > > drawing heavily on Nina's book, "Cetasikas". I am finished with the > > akusala cetasikas and am now doing the universal kusala cetasikas. > > Each week, I take one cetasika and start with the definition > > (characteristic, function, manifestation, proximate cause). I then > > summarize the relevant chapter from Nina's book. I then summarize > > practical points from other materials downloaded from the Internet. > > > > For example, I recently talked on Alobha and then summarized Bhikkhu > > Bodhi's book "Dana". Each week, I prepare class notes in bullet form > > (typically one page) which is distributed. I also summarize the > > stuff that I download from the Internet and hand it out as well. > > Bro. Teo reviews all of my material before I distribute it. In the > > past seven months, I have prepared more than 100 pages of handouts. > > I make 75 copies of each handout and they all get used up. By the > > end of 2002, I will have 150 - 200 pages of handouts and I will get > > them printed up as "class notes" for next year. > > > > My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily > > life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help > > from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked > > up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am > > looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non- > > academic group of parents. > > > > The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows: > > Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class) > > Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs > > Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta) > > Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation > > Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci- duccarita > > Virati - abstinence from wrong speech ) > > Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action) > > > > I am not sure that I can fill up a full 75 minutes of motivational > > talk on Tatramajjhattata / six pairs on July 28. My "plan B" is to > > bring in a monk for a portion of my time to discuss the process of > > becoming a monk and describe a monk's daily life. Unfortunately, I > > can't use this "get out of jail free card" more than once, so I have > > to make sure that I have a full plate of materials for future > > classes. > > > > Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but > > I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three > > abstinences more interesting. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14534 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking op 22-07-2002 23:15 schreef Howard op Howard: > =============================== > Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must be a bit dense today - > that is, more dense than usual ;-). I'm not following you. When an object is > gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone - > that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental discernment, > instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some mental > object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) of > the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental > consciousness is, what is it then? Dear Howard, It is visible object that is experienced by cittas in the eye-door process, and it is visible object experienced by cittas arising in the mind-door process that follows the eye-door process. Not mental object. The same in the case of the other sense-cognitions. Only later on there are mind-door processes of cittas experiencing concepts. See Expositor I, from p. 95 on, Part 2, Analysis of Terms, Risings of Consciousness, especially 74: Only when the first stage of insight arises doubts about this disappear. Hoping that this clarifies, best wishes, from Nina. 14535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta in Daily Life Dear friends, since metta and khanti are the themes of reflection these days I shall add a few thoughts. Actually when we deal with metta we should also speak about akusala. We should come to know the difference between kusala and akusala as was also stressed by Rob M. When we are with people there are opportunities for metta, the object of metta are persons. But very often conceit arises. I quote what I wrote about our discussions in India: When there is conceit we are thinking of the importance of self, our personality, whereas, when there is metta we think of the benefit of others. Thus, as Rob K explained, the study of the teachings, of akusala citta and kusala citta can be a condition for more metta. But we cannot force ourselves to have metta instead of conceit, As he wrote: op 23-07-2002 04:06 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op robertk: anatta as anger and ill-will. > > There can also be direct insight into the moments of sound - and if > there is then there will be no unwholesome reaction at all, and so > metta is free to arise.> end quote. Christine wrote: < I often try to think of them before I see them, as separate 'parts', as skin, teeth, intestines until I can realise there is no 'one' to judge or be frightened of. Then I try to see that, like me, they are subject to birth aging and death, kamma and relentless re-birth. If we are both of us subject to this same suffering, somehow they don't seem so different to me, not so scary, not so unlikeable. > When I talk with someone I find difficult to converse with, it helps to consider dhammas such as sound, hearing, visible object. But there are not always conditions for this. Even on the thinking level, not yet direct awareness, it helps to remember that in reality there is not X sitting there. Only citta, cetasika and rupa. I do not hear the boring or unpleasant stories of X,there is just hearing or sound. (By the way this reminds me of the sutta quoted by Howard: in the seeing there is just seeing. To me, that is the meaning: no person, no self in the seeing.) If we understand that our akusala cittas arise because of conditions, we will also understand that akusala cittas of someone else are conditioned. We will be less inclined to judge others and we will have more understanding of their problems.We can become, as A. Sujin says, "an understanding person." Also patience is necessary for each kind of kusala. We need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider often the different cittas of our life, kusala or akusala. Instead of aversion of our akusala we should have the patience to study and consider the different cittas arising because of conditions. Also energy, viriya is indispensable, to have courage, to continue studying and considering the dhammas of our daily life. When we make efforts to help others it is tiring, but then we need patience and energy, courage, not delaying kusala, not giving it up, making false excuses. A few thoughts from A. Sujin's book on Metta: She talked about the sutta of Dhananjani (S I, Ch VII) "what must we slay to live happily?", saying, Thus, sincerity, truthfulness is very necessary for the development of kusala. Otherwise we make ourselves believe that we have kusala for a long time, whereas in reality, many akusala cittas arise in between. A. Sujin explains: Metta conditions other good qualities: it conditions generosity, kind speech, humbleness. It conditions true courtesy, politeness which comes from the heart. We can develop kusala without being concerned about it whether one is liked by others or not. We can develop metta towards others, even when we do not receive any kindness from them. What would the world be without metta, we have to help each other, we are dependent on each other. Best wishes from Nina. 14536 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:52am Subject: Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > > > Dear Rob. E., > I might have misunderstood your intent but you seemed to be > suggesting that anapanasati because it is a popular sutta is the one > recommended for all followers including laypeople. Actually, I explicitly said something to the contrary: that the technicalities of breathing meditation were probably more suited for monks or those free enough of responsibilities to do a serious meditation practice. And that the Sutta you had quoted which spoke about mindfulness in all the various activities of life was probably suitable for both monks and laypeople, since both had daily activities to be mindful of. When I said the sutta was one of the most popular the only meaning that had was that it is highly valued in the Theravadan tradition and ocnsidered one of the main core Suttas. All of the above suggests to me that the Buddha did explicitly promote meditation practice, but he also explicitly promoted the practice of mindfulness in everyday living, whether one is able to meditate or not. I don't see the two emphases as being mutually exclusive or contradictory, but rather complementary. My point in the beginning of my message was that one should not assume that meditation was not specifically promoted as a practice by the Buddha just because you can find a Sutta in which it is not emphasized. And I pointed out that it is emphasized in another place, in the anapanasati, where it is given its own in-depth treatment. best, Robert Ep. ======================== This seems > different from my reading of the Pali; > For example Mahanama - a great layfollower visted the Buddha: > > "" For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for > the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?" > "Excellent, Mahanama, excellent! It is fitting for clansmen like you > to approach the Tathagata and ask, 'For those of us living by means > of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which > dwelling place should we live?' [.........] > ] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: [.....]' At > any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the > Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with > aversion, not overcome with delusion. [...] > "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while > you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, > while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are > resting in your home crowded with children. > > [2] "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the > Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen > here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be > realized by the wise for themselves.' At any time when a disciple of > the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome > with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with > delusion. [..]" > Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Dhamma while > you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, > while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are > resting in your home crowded with children."endquote > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Mahanama.htm > So I think that anapanasati wasn't recommended for all. It was for > some - especially to the great monks who could develop this (it is > the object even the Buddha's take on the eve of their enlightenment- > a very superlative object). It is very excellent for those with the > accumulations and who live in seclusion, but I don't think the Pali > texts say that everyone must develop it. > Robert > > > Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > I think there is some danger in thinking that something that has > not been > > explicitly mentioned is in fact the case, based on negative data, > that is, a lack > > of data. > > > > One may use deductive reasoning to conclude that since meditation > is not > > specifically mentioned in the Sutta below, that it is not meant to > be utilized as > > a specialized way of realizing mindfulness. I would however say > that this was > > saying that the suspect was guilty of murder because no witness > came forward to > > say that he was not innocent. The reason that this is not an > acceptable way of > > proving a crime is because it leaves open all the other > possibilities that have > > also not been mentioned. > > > > To my mind, the litany below is on a particular subject: the > practice of > > mindfulness throughout all of the activities of daily life. It is > obviously an > > important subject and an important practice, and the Buddha makes > this clear by > > outlining all the ways and conditions under which mindfulness can > be practiced. > > Does this rule out the practice of meditation as a specialized > practice that takes > > its place as a perfect complement to the daily living practice? > Not at all. This > > is in no way implied, and there is no reason why the two would not > coexist. I > > would even presume that this Sutta would be for both monks when > they are going > > about their business and for lay people in their daily life; but > the specialized > > instructions on meditation would be more appropriate for monks and > might very well > > have a special Sutta reserved for it which would not be > particularly promoted to > > lay people who do not have a lifestyle of meditative discipline. > > > > In fact, we do have a Sutta, one of the two most popular ones in > the Pali Canon, > > which does exactly this: gives a strong set of instructions for > meditation, based > > in breathing meditation and covering the way in which the Four > Foundations of > > Mindfulness are uncovered through breathing meditation, that is of > course: the > > Anapanasati Sutta - the Sutta of Mindfulness of the Breathing. > Now if the Buddha > > devotes the Sutta you have quoted to all manner of positions and > activities in > > which mindfulness may be practiced, but devotes an entire Sutta to > mindfulness of > > the breathing in meditation; how do you logically conclude as you > do that there is > > no added weight given to breathing meditation as a vehicle of > mindfulness compared > > with all the other objects, positions and ways in which > mindfulness may be > > practiced? > > > > It seems to me that you are not taking account of the evidence > given by your most, > > perhaps only, reliable witness, the Buddha himself. > > > > Here is what he says, for instance, which has already been quoted > on dsg recently, > > but is worthy of repetition in this discussion: > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > = > > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is > of great fruit, > > of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when > developed & pursued, > > brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four > frames of > > reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for > Awakening to > > their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed > & pursued, > > bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > > > (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing) > > > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued > so as to bring > > the four frames of reference to their culmination? ... > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > = > > > > The Sutta then goes on for pages and pages of instruction on > breathing meditation. > > I foind it hard to understand how this does not make the Buddha's > point obvious, > > that breathing meditation is one of the great vehicles of > mindfulness, recommended > > and detailed by him. It was in this prized community where he > complimented the > > monks' extraordinary strides and their techniques. He mentions a > number of other > > practices in an introductory manner, but why does he stop and > focus on the > > breathing meditation as the most important of these? Why does he > mention it last > > and accord all that detail to this practice? It is not a > coincidence and it is > > clear that this is the practice among the others mentioned that > the Buddha felt > > was the highest and most efficacious vehicle. You say that the > Buddha did not > > emphasize meditation in general or breathing meditation in > particular, and that it > > is given either no weight or equal weight to all other forms of > the development of > > discernment. In fact you often say that there should be no > special effort made to > > practice discernment formally, but only in daily living. > > > > I would like to know what role you think the anapanasati sutta > plays, and why it > > was written, if not to emphasize the practice of breathing > meditation - one of the > > few special practices, if I am correct, that merits its own > Sutta. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep > > > > ======================= > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 14537 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 7/24/02 12:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Howard, > > A possibly spurious question, but interested in your answer anyway: > > > > If there is no 'outside' phenomenon, what is the meaning of saying they are > > 'internal'? In other words, where, or in what faculty, do they take place; > > if > > there are no external environments, objects, senses, etc.? > > > > And how are we having this conversation? > > > > > ============================ > It's a good question. There is the seeming of externality, but it is > only a seeming. What seem to be "out there" are actually concepts/percepts. > What actually are observed are the paramattha dhammas, which, when observed > directly, and not as characteristics of "external objects", do not appear as > external. > As far as how we are having this conversation, my phenomenalism is not > a solipsism, but is very close to the "radical empiricism" of William James, > in which multiple mindstreams interact, much like the Indra's Net (to steal > an image from the Garland Sutra of Mahayana). Well you really are a phenomenalist. As I may have mentioned, my philosophy degree [BA only] was focussed on the Phenomenology of Husserl and Merleau-Ponty, and the phenomenological alternative to both objectivity and solipsism is 'intersubjectivity', where subjects both coexist and make shared agreements as to what exists and how to navigate together. It is a subjective, but shared, view of the universe. Best, Robert Ep. 14538 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 7/24/02 12:43:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from > > the > > ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; > > he may > > have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while > > covering a much different series of elements. > > > > > ========================== > I'm terrible on history, but I think that the Buddha came before Patanjali. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard. This crossed my mind, but I also think that Ashtanga may pre-date Patanjali's codification in the Yoga Sutras. My history's at least as spotty as yours, so I'm not sure. Best, Robert Ep. 14539 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Nina > > Thanks for taking the trouble to check the Thera- Theri-Gatha. It is > interesting that you could so easily come up with many instances of > enlightenment being attained other than while 'sitting'. It shows I think > that understanding of dhammas can be developed at any time, even while > doing the most mundane of chores. This bears out what is said in the > Satipatthana Sutta about mindfulness and clear comprehension being present > at any and all times. > > Very inspiring. Thanks. > > Jon Hi Jon. I hope you don't think that my interest in meditation implies that one must be sitting to attain enlightenment, or that enlightenment only comes through meditation. I am looking to have meditation included as an expedient means in your purview, not to exclude other practices. In the Mahayana tradition too, meditation is sometimes secondary. Hui Neng was enlightened while hearing a passage of the Diamond Sutra being read aloud in a marketplace. He had never meditated and had no education. Obviously kammic conditions and past life progress were the predominant factors. He was the Sixth Patriarch of Chinese Buddhism, and the founder of what became zen. He always spoke about 'realizing the Essence of Mind directly' through contemplation, the equivalent of discerning cittas, not about 'sitting meditation'. Bodhidharma, the Indian teacher who brought Buddhism to China from India, stood facing a wall as a his meditation, so while he did meditate quite intensely, he didn ot sit. I believe that meditation is one of the most expedient means to realization, but I do not think it is the only means, or that mindfulness in daily life can by any means be dispensed with. best, Robert Ep. ================= > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > > you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the > > following: > > > > op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>: > > And in the > > > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the > > > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts. > > > > > > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as > > something > > > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting > > for > > > the purpose. Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries > > this > > > implication for many readers. > > >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am > > > misinterpreted. I am of course not overlooking the fact that there > > were > > > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while > > > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting' > > > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not > > 'sitting' > > > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses). And among the many monks in > > the > > > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most > > (but > > > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'. (BTW, I > > wonder > > > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work > > out > > > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote. > > > > N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of > > the > > Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who > > attained > > enlightenment: > > > > Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it > > reminded > > her of impermanence and she became a non-returner. > > no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and > > fell. > > This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor > > mortal > > frame" and she attained arahatship. > > No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl > > overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship. > > You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and > > rest. > > Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping > > her, because she had some trouble with her leg. > > no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water > > and > > the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became > > an > > arahat. > > > > I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances > > also of > > attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of > > Dhamma. > > But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for > > aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of > > daily > > life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have > > so > > many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better > > use > > of them. > > Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life, > > with appreciation, > > Nina. 14540 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/24/02 1:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > op 22-07-2002 23:15 schreef Howard op Howard: > > > > =============================== > > Thank you for your kind reply. However, I must be a bit dense today - > > that is, more dense than usual ;-). I'm not following you. When an object > is > > gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone > - > > that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental > discernment, > > instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some > mental > > object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) > of > > the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental > > consciousness is, what is it then? > Dear Howard, > It is visible object that is experienced by cittas in the eye-door process, > and it is visible object experienced by cittas arising in the mind-door > process that follows the eye-door process. Not mental object. The same in > the case of the other sense-cognitions. Only later on there are mind-door > processes of cittas experiencing concepts. > See Expositor I, from p. 95 on, Part 2, Analysis of Terms, Risings of > Consciousness, especially 74: apperceptional thought (javana) having any one of the objects arises > through > two doors in the manner described. Thus the apperception of a visible > object > arises at the eye-dooor and also at the mind-door...> > Only when the first stage of insight arises doubts about this disappear. > Hoping that this clarifies, best wishes, from Nina. > > ============================= Thanks for the explanation. Okay, but could you please say a bit more about how the mind-door/mentality experiences a visual image? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14541 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Rob - Yep, you caught me!! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/24/02 4:56:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Well you really are a phenomenalist. As I may have mentioned, my philosophy > degree [BA only] was focussed on the Phenomenology of Husserl and > Merleau-Ponty, > and the phenomenological alternative to both objectivity and solipsism is > 'intersubjectivity', where subjects both coexist and make shared agreements > as to > what exists and how to navigate together. > > It is a subjective, but shared, view of the universe. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14542 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:16am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (3) It is useful to classify citta by way of dvara (doorway). If one only classifies citta by way of function (kicca), but not by dvara, one may not know which citta is referred to. For example, the panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) has the function of avajjana (adverting). If one does not know that this citta performs the function of adverting through the five sense-doors, one may confuse it with the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) which also perform the function of avajjana. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta, however, performs the function of avajjana only through the mind-door. Some cittas perform their function only through one door. For example, the two types of citta which are sota-vinnana (hearing-consciousness, which can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), only perform their functions through one door, the ear-door. Some cittas perform their function through more than one door. Sampaticchana-citta (receiving consciousness) performs its function through five doors, depending on the doorway which is contacted by the object. Santirana-citta has different functions performed through different doorways; it also performs functions without being dependent on any doorway and this is the case when it performs the function of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. Citta should also be classified according to feeling. For example, santirana-citta can be accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling) and by somanassa (pleasant feeling). Santirana-citta which is accompanied by somanassa can perform the function of santirana (investigating) through five doors and the function of tadarammana (registering, occurring after the javana-cittas) through six doors. When santirana-citta is accompanied by upekkha (and in that case it can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), it can perform five functions: 1. The function of santirana through five doors. 2. The function of tadarammana through six doors. 3. The function of patisandhi, without being dependent on any door. 4. The function of bhavanga, without being dependent on any door. 5. The function of cuti, without being dependent on any door. In the processes of citta the doorway (dvara) is the means through which citta experiences its object. The physical base (vatthu) is another factor which conditions citta by being its place of origin. In the planes of existence where there are nama and rupa, cittas do not arise independently of the body; a citta which arises has a rupa as its place of origin. When there is seeing, could seeing arise outside the body? When there is hearing or thinking, could these cittas arise without the body? This would not be possible. Where does seeing arise? It could not arise on our arm or in our ear. It needs the eye as its physical base. The cakkhuppasada-rupa, the rupa in the eye which can receive visible object, is the physical base for the citta which sees. The physical base or vatthu is not the same as dvara or doorway. Although the cakkhuppasada-rupa is both dvara and vatthu for seeing-consciousness, dvara and vatthu have different functions. The eye-door (cakkhu-dvara) is the means through which cittas of the eye-door process experience an object. The cakkhu-vatthu (eye-base) is the physical base, the place of origin for seeing- consciousness. The cakkhu-vatthu is the base only for seeing-consciousness, not for the other cittas of that process. The other cittas of that process have another vatthu. The vatthu for hearing-consciousness is the sotappasada-rupa, for smelling-consciousness the ghanappasada-rupa, for tasting- consciousness the jivhappasada-rupa, for body-consciousness the kayappasada-rupa. There is a sixth vatthu which is not one of the pasada-rupas. This is the hadaya-vatthu or heart-base. The hadaya-vatthu is a kind of rupa which is the place of origin for the cittas which are not among the panca-vinnanas (seeing, hearing, etc.) since these cittas have the pasada-rupa as their place of origin. The hadaya-vatthu is different from the mind-door. The mind-door is a citta, the bhavangupaccheda-citta, which is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mano- dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness). The hadaya-vatthu is rupa, not nama. 14543 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:35am Subject: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > """When I said the sutta was one of the most popular the only meaning that had was that it is highly valued in the Theravadan tradition and ocnsidered one of the main core Suttas. All of the above suggests to me that the Buddha did explicitly promote meditation practice, but he also explicitly promoted the practice of mindfulness in everyday living, whether one is able to meditate or not."" By the sutta you mean the anapanasati sutta. There are thousands of suttas, I don't doubt you but I think it is good to supply references when you say it is considered a main core sutta in the Theravada tradition. Of course the Buddha promoted meditation. There are 40 subjects of samatha - and the sutta I gave yesterday includes 4 of them. Also surely vipassana, insight meditation, is most highly recommended. Robert 14544 From: christineforsyth Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 0:24pm Subject: brief leave-of-absence Dear Group, I'm taking a brief leave-of-absence from the List, from tonight until Sunday evening ...... Sarah F and I are meeting Jon and Sarah and other dsg-ers in Noosa for a few days of Dhamma discussion and relaxation. Really looking forward to seeing everyone - not so sure about marathon bush walks though KenH :) I read some recipes for non- harming removal of leeches the other day.... something to do with sprinkling them with the juice of crushed tobacco leaves and fresh limes. Apparently, they then just detach and jump off.... I'd like to see that! metta, Christine 14545 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 2:40pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice (was: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > """When I said the sutta was one of the most popular the only > meaning that had was > that it is highly valued in the Theravadan tradition and ocnsidered > one of the > main core Suttas. All of the above suggests to me that the Buddha did > explicitly > promote meditation practice, but he also explicitly promoted the > practice of > mindfulness in everyday living, whether one is able to meditate or > not."" > > By the sutta you mean the anapanasati sutta. There are thousands of > suttas, I don't doubt you but I think it is good to supply > references when you say it is considered a main core sutta in the > Theravada tradition. > Of course the Buddha promoted meditation. There are 40 subjects of > samatha - and the sutta I gave yesterday includes 4 of them. Also > surely vipassana, insight meditation, is most highly recommended. > Robert Well I've never heard Jon make a similar statement; he seems to explicitly dismiss meditation as an important method of realization; to the point where I've had the impression this is part of the Abhidhamma philosophy. Jon has said that any purposeful attempt to set up conditions, such as sitting formerly in mediation, in order to practice mindfulness, adds an obstacle to the natural realization of naturally occurring dhammas, which should be discerned as they arise, without choosing the object. Now if I am misrepresenting him or Abhdidhamma, I would be happy to know this. I have absolutely nothing in opposition to the Abhidhammic mandate to encounter and discern all arising dhammas with mindfulness throughout the course of daily living. I just think that this is magnified by using all the available tools of realization: Sutta study; discernment of dhammas; association with spiritual friends; and meditation. And a little metta never hurts either. As for saying that the anapanasati sutta is one of the most popular, I don't have evidence except from my own experience that it seems to be widely known, translated, talked about, referenced and practiced by people I've run into and what I've seen on-line. Best, Robert Ep. 14546 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/24/02 5:56:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Thanks for the explanation. Okay, but could you please say a bit more > about how the mind-door/mentality experiences a visual image? > > ============================= I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image is discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, but when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same image obtained by the process of visual discernment is processed in a further manner. Am I correct? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14547 From: Ruth Klein Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 9:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Buddha images Thank you for your lovely personal experience. I will just give it time, watch and wait. My views will change - they always do. Namaste, Ruth BTW, Ruth was my paternal grandmother, who died before I was born. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:59 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha images > > > Dear Ruth, > > I too come from the same cultural background as you and had the > same doubts > and uncomfortable feelings about bowing down to a "graven image" when I > first came to Thailand back in 1966. I could not see the purpose > of it, and > at the time, thought it totally unnecessary. I saw the images > only as lovely > art objects, but bowed to them during ceremonies out of respect for my > husband's family. Later, many here tried to convince me that the > images held > "psychic powers" and indeed, many Thais venerate them for the "power" they > believe the images possess. > > However, with the study of Abhidhamma, a new understanding of > Buddha images > arose. The Tipitaka says (sorry, I don't know the text reference, would > someone kindly help me out?) something to the effect: he who sees the > Dhamma, sees the Tathagata. One who increasingly understands the Dhamma, > likewise becomes increasingly aware of the awesomeness of both the Dhamma > and of the One who discovered and taught the Dhamma to us. So > now, when I do > see a Buddha image, it acts as a "condition" for the arising of a sense of > joy and thanksgiving for the Dhamma, with the understanding that the image > itself is just a reminder to us to keep on developing bhavana, dana and > sila. > > By the way, at the Foundation where Achaan Sujin teaches, there are no > Buddha images at all. There is a tastefully designed altar with a lovely > crystal "stupa" which has a relic of the Buddha encased within, > given to the > Foundation by the Supreme Patriarch. > > metta, > Betty > _______________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > I couldn't agree more! One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike > > reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama. I understand, > > intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment. And > that > > bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of > respect, > > and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western > > handshake. (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a > cultural thing.) > > > > However, I cannot help but stop myself from setting up my own altar or > > bowing to the Buddha, simply because of the conditioned beliefs of "Thou > > shalt have no other g-d before me." and "Thou shalt not make > unto thee any > > graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above...." > > > > Also, if I am not mistaken, though the earlier suttas expound that > > Siddhartha Gautama was a man, some of the later ones (and works such as > the > > Buddhavamsa) have elevated him past the human realm to a superman, > > Maha-Purisa. (See George Bond: "The Word of the Buddha: The > Tipitaka and > > its Interpretation in Theravada Buddhism", M.D. Gunasena & Co, 1982). > > > > I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal conflicts; > but I need > > to explore them further. > > > 14548 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jul 25, 2002 11:11pm Subject: dukkha, tanha saw this on a tshirt here in hawaii. Looks like the hawaiian version of dukkha, tanha, nirodha: "if get, get. If no get, no get." -fk 14549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: translation Dear Kom, Thank you very much, this is very interesting. I shall add a footnote. Dhura can mean: yoke, office, responsibility, charge. op 23-07-2002 22:15 schreef Kom Tukovinit op <>: > > If you have the atthagatha to the particular jataka, there is a further > explanation. Let me first give you comments on the Thai translation, and I > will give you a translation from the Thai commentaries (be careful!) > > Mai chai thura in Thai is exactly how you translated, not their business. > Dhura may have additional meaning, though: if you stretch it, it probably > can mean duty, behavior, or practice. > > The commentary says this: > a-dhura-yang(???) (same word root as thura): means someone with inferior > panna, who doesn't induce in others the business (the development?) of > saddha, the development of sila, the development of panna, who induce in > others improper businesses. > > You may want to re-verify the translations with others (more knowledgeable!) > for the sentence: "they are likely to take upon themselves undue tasks" as > the Thai translation and the commentaries interpretting this as inducing on > others, not applying to themselves. 14550 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3, comments Dear Num, Thank you very much, I appreciate your enthusiasm and patience to render the lectures. I will add some remarks and point to the English passages in the English translation. Panna by listening: see Enlish Path of Discrimination, applying the ear, p. 8, and following. Then restraint after hearing, sila maya ~naa.na: p. 43. Sila is translated as virtue. restraint: samvara, I prefer "guarding" for this term. Restraint makes me think of: just suppress and then concentrate. Or it makes me think: sila is just abstaining, but much more is included in sila as you pointed out . But, as you said, the whole book stresses panna above all. Now some reactions, remarks, questions. op 24-07-2002 01:48 schreef Num op Num: > Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 > Book #1 is matika and its commentary. There are 73 different levels of n~ana. > This part is dealing with each n~ana¹s definition and its tipitaka references. > A.Supee and A.Sujin stressed that each (ariyan) person has different > accumulation and it¹s not necessary that he/she attained all n~ana. > Ven.Sariputta explained this sutta in explicit detail to cover all possible > n~ana. For example there are 6 n~anas that can be attained only by the > Buddha. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. > > 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: knowledge) > Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. > Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here > refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to the > teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of listening > for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is > sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge (n~ana). > < penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow by a > skillful archer. Illumination of the object as its function, as it were a > lamp. Non-confusion as its manifestation, as it were a hunter gives guidance > to one who is getting in the forest. And samadhi as its proximate cause.>> > A.Sujin stressed on the importance of listening and the knowledge at the > listening level. Nina: I like this very much, it all begins with listening. And as said above: < Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana.> One of the conditions for satipatthana is firm remembrance. That comes from listening and considering again and again. The Thai Co, p. 37, uses the word bahussuta, who has heard much. > Num: 2) Silamayan~ana > Matika: Knowledge in listening to dhamma and then restrain is silaman~ana. > Atthakatha: Knowledge attained through restrain. (silamayan~ana). Sangvara > (restraint) factors: pat.imokkha, sati, n~ana, khanti, and viriya. There are > many kinds and level of sila, but all silas has restrain as there > characteristic. Nina: the Co. p. 37, speaks about understanding that has been accomplished through listening. And Co elaborates (p. 39) on the different types of sila. As you mentioned there are many kinds, and when we study these we see that sila is not just abstaining. Under patimokkha, the example is taken: a monk sees visible object but he is not taken in by the image of a whole or the details. Thus this is guarding the doorways, indriya samvara sila. The most effective guarding is by satipatthana. Awareness of visible object as only a kind of rupa, of seeing as only a kind of nama. No dosa towards visible object or sound, they are not a person. About sati and panna as sila: the Co mentions about sati as restraint or that which holds back a stream, whereas panna is the dam, it is the most effective to dam the stream (of defilements), See Sutta Nipata, vs. 1034, 1035. Num: Getting rid of one who is unrestrained, or having no adverse > effect as its function. Cleanness as its manifestation, and having shame > (hiri) and fear of blame (ottappa) as its proximate cause. Knowledge which > accompanies (sampayutta) by sila is silamayan~ana. Reflecting on adverse > effects of unrestraint, reflecting on benefit of restraint, reflecting on > purity of restraint, and reflecting the cleanness attained from restraint are > parts of silamayan~ana. > > 3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na > Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. > Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who contains in > restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single point with the ability of > upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, knowledge in samadhicitta, or associated > with samadhicitta. > > 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means > sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, sabhava: kusaladhamma, > akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma > called dhamma because it is being arisen sustained by its conditions. Knowing > by discernment of each dhamma¹s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( atthakatha > then says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. Nina: for the sake of terms which may be difficult for those who do not know Pali: nama-rupa-paricheda~naa.na is the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. The second one, paccayapariggha ~naa.na is the direct understanding of conditions. A question: some people think, when they read the Visuddhimagga, that you have to know all conditions for each nama and rupa or know them by reasoning. But insight is not theory, but panna that directly knows. It just knows that seeing is vipaka condiitoned by kamma, conditioned by object and base. could you obtain additional info about this stage which is not reasoning? As to thi.ti , dhamma thi.ti ~naa.na, See English p. 36. This is translated as stagnation, which is not good. I would say: stabilisation. This is a difficult part: is it that panna has become firmer? Num: The atthakatha then stresses on the importance of listening to the Buddha > teaching. It mentions ³no being² (nissattata). There is dhamma that exists > very briefly, then changes and gone (vikara). > The atthakatha then raises the point why this nana is not being called > samatha-paccayapariyanana (knowledge in discernment of conditions by > one-pointed mind). The atthakatha says because samatha and vipassana are > paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clearly > (vipassana), one¹s mind is one-pointed, or when one¹s mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. Nina:... when one¹s mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. What degree of one-pointedness? This is often quoted to maintain the idea that people should first concentrate. Num: The atthakatha then continues with ³as long as magga > dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make samadhi > and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.² Nina: Here the Co, p. 51, is short. I like more info if possible. Is it that someone is so enticed by jhana that he does not apply insight and thus keeps on taking jhana for self? Thus, the yogi who has accumulated conditions for high degrees of samadhi should practise samadhi and vipassana as a pair, and keep on applying himself to this. Is that correct? Num: < A.Supee pointed out that samatha/samadhi in 8 magga-factor refers to 3 > magga factors: sammasati, sammavayama, and sammasamadhi (samathisikkha). > Vipassana in 8 magga-factor refers to sammasankappa, and sammadithti > (pannasikkha). I also asked him a question why the tipitaka here put nana is > stepwise manner: suta-, sila, samadhibhavana, and the dhammathitinana, is it a > stepwise instruction? He said this manner of expounding is an explicit manner. > It means to cover every different accumulation, or person. Every patisambhida > person (refer only to the ariyan person) has different accumulation. One may > attain both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without attaining > nana ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing dhamma, not jhana and > vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all in his teaching. >> Nina: you mention here, a Patisambhida person, thus, those who are so talented that they will attain with the four discriminative knowledges, as explained before in this series. I conclude that we cannot copy them, it is very, very high. Thank you Num, for all this material that is good for consideration. With apppreciation Nina. 14551 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no 5. Perfections, Ch 3, no. 5. If we consider the perfections developed by the Buddha life after life, as related in the ³Basket of Conduct², we can see that our development of the perfections is still very insignificant compared to his development, there is an immense difference. Therefore, we should further develop all the perfections. We should not have expectations with regard to right understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away very rapidly at this moment. The truth cannot be realized immediately, but understanding must be developed very gradually during an endlessly long time. We read at the end of the Commentary to the ³Conduct of Akitti²: There may be confidence in him (the Bodhisatta), confidence that it is possible to be freed from dukkha, but one may merely express words about this confidence and not act accordingly, just as the Buddha, by the practice in conformity with the Damma (3 . Thus, it is not sufficient to merely have confidence in the perfections the Buddha developed during his former lives, but we should also apply these perfections in daily life. If we express our confidence merely by words, even though there is kusala citta at that moment, but we do not act accordingly by the right practice, we shall not reach the goal. We may consider the perfections that we begin to develop. We wish to listen to the Dhamma and to learn about the practice in accordance with the Dhamma. We need the perfection of energy, viriya, in order to be able to listen. If there is no energy or right effort, we do not come to listen to the Dhamma, but we rather listen to another subject that gives us pleasure and entertainment. When we listen to the Dhamma we also need the perfection of patience, khanti, because sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us so much. Without patience we cannot develop the other perfections such as the perfection of morality, síla. Without the perfection of síla we shall transgress morality by our deeds and speech. It is most important with whom we associate. The ascetic Akitti said with regard to himself that he did not wish to see, to hear or to be close to fools. The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² compares association with fools to the tasting of water that has a bitter, unpleasant flavour, and association with wise persons to the tasting of sweet water. Footnote 3. Dhammanudhamma paìipatti: the practice of the Dhamma in conformity with the Dhamma (anudhamma). The practice of the Dhamma so that one attains supramundane Dhamma, enlightenment. 14552 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:07am Subject: An Internet Analogy Hi DSG, I was recently reading an interesting book, "You're What You Sense" by Dr. Suwanda Sugunasiri which included an Internet analogy. I expanded on the analogy and presented it to my Abhidhamma class. I think that you may find it interesting as well. Input = visible object / audible object Client Computer Hardware = eye base / ear base Client Computer Software = eye consciousness / ear consciousness Internet Service Provider = mind door Internet = namarupa Internet Hardware = mind base Internet Software = nama A person types information (input) into their computer (client hardware). The software on their computer (client software) processes the information and sends it to the Internet Service Provider, a gateway to the Internet used by a number of different clients. The Internet is made up of millions of computer servers running software which allows them to interact. Who Controls the Internet? ========================== Even though the Internet is incredibly complex, there is no single entity in control. Even though beings (namarupa) are incredibly complex, there is no "self" in control. This is the concept of anatta. What is the Internet? ===================== The Internet is a concept, an aggregate of ever-changing software and hardware. None of the components are the Internet and the Internet does not exist outside of the components. A being is a concept, an aggregate of ever-changing nama (mind) and rupa (body). None of the components (mind or body) are the being and the being does not exist outside of the components. How to Describe the Internet? ============================= Though hardware is necessary for the Internet to exist, it is best to treat hardware as a platform for software and focus on how hardware impacts the software (speed, capacity, etc.) rather than the technical details of the hardware (processors, etc.). What makes the Internet interesting and powerful is the interaction between software. Though rupa is necessary for a being to exist, it is best to treat rupa as a platform for nama and focus on how nama experiences rupa (solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion) rather than the technical details of rupa (protons, neutrons, electrons). What makes a being interesting and powerful is the interaction of nama. What Makes the Internet Work? ============================= In addition to being governed by the laws of physics (signal degradation, etc.), the foundation of the Internet is a set of rules that define how software interacts (TCP/IP, HTTP, etc.). The Internet is almost never at rest as there are almost always inputs arriving from one of the clients. In addition to being governed by the laws of utu-niyama (we all must age), the foundation of a being is a set of rules that define how nama interacts (citta-niyama, kamma-niyama). A being is almost never at rest as there are almost always external objects being apprehended by the five senses. How to Understand the Internet? =============================== One can never understand the internet looking at the macro-level (appearance of web pages, etc.). To truly understand the Internet, one must understand how the underlying hardware, software and rules work. One can never understand a being looking at the macro-level (personality, etc.). To truly understand a being, one must understand how the underlying rupa, nama and niyama work. Being an engineer by training, I found this analogy interesting - particularly the "Nobody controls the Internet = anatta" concept. Enjoy! Thanks, Rob M :-) 14553 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:59am Subject: ADL ch. 17 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 17 (4) When sound contacts the ear-sense, the panca-dvara-vajjana-citta (five-sense-door adverting- consciousness) which arises, has as its place of origin the hadaya-vatthu, but the hearing-consciousness has the sotappasada-rupa as its vatthu. All succeeding cittas of that process, however, have the hadaya-vatthu as their place of origin. All cittas of the mind-door process too have the hadaya-vatthu as their place of origin. Vithi-vimutti-cittas which experience an object without dependence on any door, also have a physical place of origin. Although they are not dependent on any doorway, they could not, in the planes where there are both nama and rupa, arise without a vatthu. A new life begins when the patisandhi-citta arises; however, there is not only nama, there has to be rupa as well. The hadaya-vatthu is the rupa which is the vatthu of the patisandhi-citta. All bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta have the hadaya-vatthu as their physical base. The five kinds of pasada-rupa are the vatthus of the panca-vinnanas. As regards the vatthu of the two types of kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness, which can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), this can arise all over the body. Any part of the body which has sensitivity, can be vatthu for the kaya-vinnana. The vatthu is the place of origin not only of citta, but also of cetasikas arising together with the citta. Thus, except in the planes of existence where there is only nama there has to be rupakkhandha as well when the four namakkhandhas arise. It is useful to classify citta by way of kicca (function), arammana (object), dvara (doorway), vatthu, and in many other ways. In this way we will have a clearer understanding of citta. We should, however, remember that this kind of understanding is not yet the wisdom which eradicates lobha, dosa and moha. In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Khnadha-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Radha, Ch.I, par. 4, To be understood) we read: At Savatthi . As he thus sat at one side the Exalted One thus addressed the venerable Radha: -- 'I will show you the things to be understood, and the understanding, and the person who has understood. Do you listen to it.' The Exalted One thus spoke: 'And what, Radha, are the things to be understood? Body, Radha, is a thing to be understood: so is feeling, perception, the activities. Consciousness is a thing to be understood. These, Radha, are the things to be understood. And what, Radha, is understanding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of ignorance,--this, Radha, is called 'understanding'. And who, Radha, is the person who has understood? 'Worthy' should he be called, that venerable one of such and such a name, of such and such a clan - - that, Radha, is the meaning of 'the person who has understood'.' Sometimes the Buddha reminded people of the purpose of the teachings in a longer discourse, sometimes in a shorter discourse, but one has to be often reminded of the goal. What is the purpose of understanding, if it does not lead to the eradication of defilements? Questions 1. Can citta know arammana without being dependent on any doorway? 2. Through how many doors can citta know arammana? 3. Through how many doors does panca-dvaravajjana-citta (sense-door-adverting-consciousness) experience an object? 4. Through how many doors does mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) experience an object? 5. Through how many doors does sota-vinnana (hearing-consciousness) experience an object? 6. Through how many doors does santirana-citta perform the function of santirana (investigating)? 7. Does santirana-citta perform the function of patisandhi independent on a doorway? 8. Of how many cittas is cakkhu-vatthu (eye-base) the vatthu? 9. Of how many ahetuka cittas is hadaya-vatthu (heart-base) the vatthu? 10. Can the sotappasada-rupa (ear-sense) be dvara (door) or vatthu (base) or both? 11. What are the respective functions of dvara and vatthu? 14554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: sutta study, to Howard Hi, Howard, you quoted a sutta with your own additions between brackets, it is a very interesting one, and now I cannot find your text, but I decided to go to the Commmentary. I think you suggested that this sutta contained a message on samatha as a stepping stone, and also you thought that desire in the translation was lobha, and, you added as your own comment, even for outside rupa. I hope I do not misrepresent what you meant. This is the sutta: Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, Ch VI, §8, Rooted in the Exalted One. The Buddha asked the monks what they should answer when wanderers of other views would ask them: The Buddha said that they should answer thus: Nibbana is also explained as nir-vana, no vana, craving. We have to see here what is stressed: the long way out of samsara, the cycle, developed and then leading to arahatship. It is also said, "when someone is developing serenity and insight", *when*. Thus, here is a limitation. And see the function of samadhi, does that warrant an absolute necessity for everybody to develop samatha to the degree of jhana? Each sutta needs a thorough study, and then we find that matters are much more intricate then we thought at first. The same for the anapana sati sutta, we have to study each tetrad (group of four) mentioned in the course of development. It is not as simple as it may seem to be. What exactly is to be known, when concentrating on breath? To whom has the sutta been spoken, to laypeople, to monks with different accumulations? Some of them were highly gifted and could attain arahatship with the four discriminative knowledges, but not all. In what way can this practice bring to fulfilment the four satipatthanas? Next week I come back to this subject. (weekends are busy for me.) It actually falls under the study of Visuddhimagga under the leadership of Jon and Rob Ep. I am glad they both take it all in such good spirit, both braving the high waves. They wrote: > Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes of > view!!) > > Jon Rob Ep: ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good chuckle. yup, what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it as 'conditions'. Best wishes from Nina. 14555 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta study, to Howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/26/02 1:02:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Hi, Howard, > you quoted a sutta with your own additions between brackets, it is a very > interesting one, and now I cannot find your text, but I decided to go to > the > Commmentary. I think you suggested that this sutta contained a message on > samatha as a stepping stone, -------------------------------------------- Howard: Concentration, actually, not samatha. ------------------------------------------- and also you thought that desire in the> > translation was lobha, and, you added as your own comment, even for outside > rupa. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on what you are saying here, Nina, with regard to "outside rupa", and I didn't mention "lobha" -------------------------------------------- I hope I do not misrepresent what you meant.> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here is the sutta as i quoted it with my comments inserted: It may be, O monks, that wandering ascetics of another persuasion might ask you: "In what are things rooted? How do they come to actual existence? Where do they arise? Where do they converge? What is the foremost in all things? What is their master? What is the highest of all things? What is the essence of all things? Where do all things merge? Where do they end? If you are thus questioned, monks, you should reply as follows: "All things are rooted in desire. {Do our desires create birdsounds outside the house, or do they create birdsounds as the content of auditory experience?}. They come to actual existence through attention.{Through *attention*!! Does our attention create external hardness, external sounds, external colors, or does our attention create the content of our experience? Yet it is said here that attention is what brings all things to *actual existence*!}, originate from contact {So, without contact, there is no sound, no color, etc. It is said here that all things originate from contact, that is, they don't exist on their own!}, and converge in feeling. The foremost of all things is concentration {So, concentration is not only important, but is "the foremost of all things."}. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is wisdom, there essence liberation. All things merge in the deathless, and Nibbana is their culmination." ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is the sutta:> > Gradual Sayings, Book of Tens, Ch VI, §8, Rooted in the Exalted One. The > Buddha asked the monks what they should answer when wanderers of other > views > would ask them: compounded > of what, arising from what, conjoined in what, headed by what, ruled over > by > what, having what as ultimate, of what essence, into what plunging, ending > up in what are all things?> > The Buddha said that they should answer thus: > are all things, originating from contact, conjoined in feeling (text has > sensation), headed by concentration, ruled over by mindfulness, having > wisdom as ultimate are all things, having release for their essence, > plunging into the deathless, with nibbana for their conclusion are all > things" > > First a few word meanings from the Thai Pali: desire here stands for > chanda, > desire to do which can be kusala or akusala. Thinking stands here for > manasikara, attention. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. That matches the version I quoted. ---------------------------------------------------- This is the foundation. Concentration is the> > translation of samadhi, ekaggata cetasika. > The Co is short, but I shall go to a similar text in the Patisambhida magga > with Co. > First the Co to this sutta: this talk on amata, the deathless, speaks about > saupadisesa nibbana: nibbana with the khandhas remaining. Thus, with > nibbana > as conclusion refers to upadisesa nibbana dhatu (element). The Bhikkhu who > has attained this is called someone who attained the highest dhamma in all > respects. > The end. > Now a similar passage in the Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Knowledge, > § 43: > Zeal (chanda) through its meaning of root , is to be directly known. > Attention (manasikara) through its meaning of originating.. Contact, > through > its meaning of combining ( the internal and external bases for contact)... > Feeling, through its meaning of meeting place (for craving)... > Concentration, through its meaning of being foremost (in marshalling other > cetasikas)... Mindfulness, through its meaning of dominance (in > establishing > the supporting object)... Understanding, through its meaning of being > highest of all... Deliverance, through its meaning of core, is to be > directly known. Nibbana which merges into the deathless, through its > meaning > of ending is to be directly known. > Now the Co to this, given in a note by the translator. BTW you will see > that > this is Dependent Origination in the opposite direction, patiloma, away > from > samsara. > Co: way of practice and what is produced by that. It is wise attention (yoniso > manasikara) that originates all profitable dhammas. Feeling is the > principal > reason for craving; and when craving is being abandoned that is accompl > ished > especially by the full understanding of feeling. Again contact is the > principal reason for feeling, and when that is fully understood feeling is > fully understood. That is why contact is mentioned first among the seven > remaining dhammas to be directly known. Now contact is defined by its own > action, which is the "coincidence of the three (eye, visible object and > eye-consciousness), and since it is thus manifested as the coincidence of a > triad it has the meaning of combining. Again, when feeling gets citta and > cetasikas into its power it meets them, enters them, or it enters the > cognizant continuity as well. That is why it has the meaning of meeting > place. Then, just as the peak of a round roof locks all the rafters > together, so concentration is the foremost, the topmost, of all profitable > dhammas in focussing citta and cetasikas, which is why it has the meaning > of > foremost. Mindfulness has the meaning of dominance, when someone is > developing serenity and insight it is dominant in the establishment of the > object, and when mindfulness is established then all profitable dhammas > perform their various functions with respect to this object. The > understanding belonging to the noble path has the meaning of being the > highest of all, the foremost of all those profitable dhammas, and surpasses > them all. The deliverance of the path's fruition is solid since it suffers > no loss and for that reason it has the meaning of core (heartwood). > Deathless is said because there is no dying there, and because it is free > from poison through its being the opposite of defilement. It is the dhamma > (text translates dhamma as idea) because it gives a footing for beings by > realization. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've seen that before. It's an odd translation I think. ---------------------------------------------------- It is called nibbana because it has peace from the suffering of> > the round of rebirths. It is called nibbana too, because there is no > craving > called vana there. Since that is the goal of the Dispensation it has the > meaning of end.> > > Nibbana is also explained as nir-vana, no vana, craving. > > > We have to see here what is stressed: the long way out of samsara, the > cycle, developed and then leading to arahatship. It is also said, "when > someone is developing serenity and insight", *when*. Thus, here is a > limitation. And see the function of samadhi, does that warrant an absolute > necessity for everybody to develop samatha to the degree of jhana? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I don't know. The sutta does say that concentration (samadhi) is foremost in all things. It doesn't talk about samatha, an outgrowth of samadhi. ------------------------------------------------- > Each sutta needs a thorough study, and then we find that matters are much > more intricate then we thought at first. The same for the anapana sati > sutta, we have to study each tetrad (group of four) mentioned in the course > of development. It is not as simple as it may seem to be. What exactly is > to > be known, when concentrating on breath? To whom has the sutta been spoken, > to laypeople, to monks with different accumulations? Some of them were > highly gifted and could attain arahatship with the four discriminative > knowledges, but not all. In what way can this practice bring to fulfilment > the four satipatthanas? Next week I come back to this subject. (weekends > are > busy for me.) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: My primary point in quoting and commenting on this sutta was with regard to the phenomenalist perspective. ---------------------------------------------------- > It actually falls under the study of Visuddhimagga under the leadership of > Jon and Rob Ep. I am glad they both take it all in such good spirit, both > braving the high waves. > They wrote: > > Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes > of > > view!!) > > > > Jon > > Rob Ep: ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good > chuckle. yup, > what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it > as > 'conditions'. > > Best wishes from > Nina. > ================================ Thanks for the commentaries, Nina. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14556 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:49pm Subject: postcard from Noosa Dear All, Having an action-packed long dhamma weekend with friends here....We arrived, knowing we'd be joining up with Christine, but not sure who if anyone else..... Well, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed having spent a second wonderful day of having very relaxed dhamma discussions in a beautiful location with DSG friends and reuniting with other very dear dhamma friends neither of us had seen for over 20 years;-)) For us, we start with an early morning, c000ld (if not freezing) swim and jog to warm up on the golden sand here, followed by a breakfast in an outdoor restaurant on the beach with Chris, her daughter,Sarah F, Ken H, his lurking DSG friend Andrew, Azita and the other old friends, all of whom Nina will remember - Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, Sundhara (was Bhikkhu Sundharo in Sri Lanka when we last met, Gillian Pechey and another young couple....Lots of discussion of present realities -- different lifestyles, accumulations and life events not withstanding --...the value of hearing dhamma, good friends, how easily led astray we are by kilesa and especially lobha....the relative unimportance of other interests...no self, no turn-off key for akusala, the futility of searching for personality or accumulation changes and so on.... So after the 6hour breakfast (with a few changes of location, searching for the 'not too sunny', 'not too shady', 'just right' spot).....5 mins break before a nearly 3hr'magical'walk through the eucalyptus woods, round the cliffs, down to the nudist beach (too cool for any nudists), back via 'hells Gates' and 'Fairy Pools', combining lots of lobha for the visible objects, sounds, smells, feelings and stories with dhamma discussion and questions and usually inadequate comments (from me)...... Lots of laughs and fun all the time...And also, opportunities for metta a nd khanti...listening, considering, being friendly and helpful, wishing others well instead of thinking of oneself. Sometimes the opportunities are lost, but whether there is metta or aversion or any other reality, it's conditioned as it is at this moment and is not self. Tomorrow some of us will meet up again and I hope some of the others will report with their own impressions and comments...I'm sure Chris will manage to include the koala, the owl, the turkeys and any other creatures she spotted while the rest of us were talking too much.... I'd better sign off before I lose these cryptic comments (as happened to a post I wrote from a Bondi internet cafe).. With thanks to all those who we've met up with here who have made our visit so memorable and dhamma-packed..... Sarah ====== p.s We've been printing out and reading all the gret posts in our absence and will speak again from Hong Kong if not before. 14557 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Victor Thanks. Would you like to share with us your understanding of the instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta? Jon --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Jon, > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you have > doubts about my approach. > > What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the Buddha's > instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > Regards, > Victor 14558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Rob Ep I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Perhaps 'in brief' will do... 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? It's great value is that it is kusala. 3. What role *does* it play in the development of insight/enlightenment/liberation? All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of kusala such as samatha. Jon --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dear Jon, Your points are well taken, and they lead me to a question: if samatha is [possibly] not necessary as a condition for vipassana; and if samatha is as difficult to attain as vipassana; but the attainment of enlightenment with samatha is a higher attainment than of enlightenment alone; what is it that samatha is *necessary* for; what is it's great value as far as you know so far; and what role *does* it play in the development of insight/enlightenment/liberation? I know it's a big question, but I am only asking for a temporary clarification on the way; sometimes I forget simple things and suddenly don't know what I'm talking about....or perhaps that is just the development of a bit of insight on my own lack of understanding.... : / Best, Robert Ep. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14559 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/27/02 6:05:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Rob Ep > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Please excuse me for butting in. -------------------------------------------------- > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Perhaps 'in > brief' will do... > > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > kusala such as samatha. > > Jon > ================================ How's this? Samatha is a condition for the development of samadhi. Actually, they are mutually supportive, but the stating of calm as leading to concentration is frequent. (Generally, an upset mind has trouble concentrating, and a calm mind has little trouble.) As you say, calm is precondition for the jhanas, with calm easing the way to increasing one-pointedness. In many places, the first four jhanas are the definition of right concentration. (Yes, right concentration is also defined otherwise in a few places, but most often and prominently as the first four jhanas.) And right concentration is one of the factors of the 8-fold path, none of which do I recall reading is expendable. Pa~n~na is what directly leads to liberation, and mindfulness is probably the chief factor leading to wisdom itself. Mindfulness, of course, fosters calm and concentration, which in turn foster more mindfulness. What I don't understand is why you seem to wish to downplay concentration and calm. Even if they don't take a leadership role, what bothers you about them? Right effort is another thing that seems to bother you a bit. My guess is that you are concerned with an emphasis on these leading to or springing from an atta view which accepts a controlling agent. Am I correct in that? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14560 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Hi, Jon, If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta, and if there is any part of the instruction that you don't understand, then it might be a good idea to bring up your questions on what you don't understand to the dsg members' attention. In this way, you might get some responses that are helpful to your development of mindfulness of breathing, if you are making effort to develop it in the first place. Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks. Would you like to share with us your understanding of the > instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati > Sutta? > > Jon > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Jon, > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you have > > doubts about my approach. > > > > What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the Buddha's > > instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14561 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hello All, I forwarded the following post to a friend recently. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14299 I got a response, to which I responded. I am wondering about how to answer my own questions. So, 1) Any comments about the exchange will be appreciated 2) Answers to the questions will be appreciated. Thanks! kom -----Original Message----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:12 AM Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear ..., Thanks for the response. Here are more comments! -----Original Message----- From: ... Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 1:39 AM To: Kom Tukovinit Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. VTK: This is my point. Meditation does not mean that we have to sit cross-legged to attain maka pala nippana. It can be any moments and any positions (sitting, walking, standing, and sleeping) as long as we are mindful. Ananda attained the first path when he was laying down on his bed. [KT] On this point I think we agree. (BTW, Anada attained arahantship when he was laying down on his bed) VTK: In addition, the right conditions that they had already developed for aeons might have included intensive meditation practice, so that they could be more mindful during their daily life when they attained arahantship. [KT] Now this point we have to discuss a bit further (to see how different/similar we are). Let me ask you the following questions (which you may choose to answer or not, according to your own understanding and preferences): 1) What is a meditation practice? For example, is it being at a specific place at a specific time? Is there a rule that we must follow in order for it to be a meditation practice? What are the specific results/progress of a practice? Do we have to be at peace to practice? Do we have to follow rituals that we don't normally follow in order to be called practice? If we now mindful of the realities that are occuring now, is that a practice? 2) Does what we learn about realities from the Buddha the same as what we "observe" in the practice? Or do we learn one thing, and during the practice, we observe another? 3) What do we learn when we "practice"? Is it the same or different from what we learn in hearing and considering? 4) What's the difference between "sati" and "wanting to observe what's going on?" 5) Does wanting more sati a condition for the rising of more sati? Does the intention to observe realities a condition for the rising of sati? [Nina] They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. VTK: The question is how to be more mindful of nama and rupa in daily life, especially when our untrained mind is everywhere. I think that is why it is important to have intensive training of being mindful. If we only learn martial arts, like boxing, kung-fu, judo, etc., how to do it, but never really practice, how can we use the arts when the time comes? Same as sathit. If we do not develop our sathit or mindfulness, how can we use it when the time comes? [KT] OK. Since I think I ask you enough questions above, I will give an opinion here. My understanding of mindfulness is, we become more mindful as we understand more (not just knowing the theories, but undestanding from oberservations in daily life) the benefits of sati, and drawbacks/disadvantages of not being mindful. If you know there are dangers of crossing the road without looking, you are more careful in crossing the roads. The more we are familiar with the realities that are objects of sati, and we are reminded about realities and sati (because of understading what we hear, because of understanding resulted from consideration), the more opportunities there are for sati to arises. (Counter-example) We develop habbit by doing something repeatedly over time, do we not? We can even learn in that particular mode, and become *very* good at what we do, even without going through an intensive learning session. Being in an intensive session doesn't guarantee being able to apply what we learn, or being good at it. The above are counter-examples of how to develop normal habbit, but it is not the same as developing vipassana. Developing vipassana is unlike all the other habbits that we have developed in our lives, from the aspect that it must be led by wisdom, not by fear, sadness, or disappointment in life, not by attachment or wanting, and definitely not by ignorance. Without the right understandings about what the path (to nibbana) is, then no progress is possible, even if we may learn something. VTK: Another important question is that I do not know whether I have already been developing the right conditions to attain maka pala nippana. Since I do not know, I believe that I need to develop both theory, which is the Buddha's teachings, as well as practice, which is mindfulness and concentration. [KT] One cannot reach nibbana without the practice (pati-pati), but the question that I think is of paramount importance is what is the right practice? If we have the wrong pratice, there is no progress, and we accumulate more inclinations to do even more of the wrong practice in the future. If we have the right practice, then wisdom will develop, and wisdom develops very slowly. You may notice that in order to become a Buddha, the boddhisatta had to develop the 10 perfections (including wisdom) for 4 aeons. That, in our time frame, is *very* slow. A disciple of the Buddha will not take as long, but it would be in numerous lifetimes. If we are focused on making "progress", we may be lured into doing the wrong pratice because we hope that the wrong practice may allow us to develop faster. For me, ensuring/verifying that something is the right practice is very important because the right practice is the only way that we may progress in the path. Now, let me ask you more questions, which you may choose to answer or not, according to your own understandings. From the followings, what are the paths, what are not the paths, what are the factors contributing to the path, what are not the factors contributing to the path? What are the teachings of the Buddha, what are not the teachings of the Buddha? 1) Doing things slowly like walking slowly, eating slowly? 2) Oberserving silence, not speaking to each other, regardless of what the topics of discussions? 3) Observing the sila, like the 5, the 8, or the 227? 4) Being mindful of realities that are appearing? 5) Wanting to be more mindful? 6) Hearing the dhamma? 7) Considering the dhamma? 8) Mental peacefulness? Being free from the thoughts that cause us discomfort? 9) Eating only twice a day? 10) Discussing the dhamma? 14562 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight Correction: "If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta ,...." --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi, Jon, > > If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of > breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta, and if there is any > part of the instruction that you don't understand, then it might be a > good idea to bring up your questions on what you don't understand to > the dsg members' attention. In this way, you might get some > responses that are helpful to your development of mindfulness of > breathing, if you are making effort to develop it in the first place. > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor > > > > Thanks. Would you like to share with us your understanding of the > > instruction on being mindful of breathing as set out in the > Anapanasati > > Sutta? > > > > Jon > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Jon, > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand that you > have > > > doubts about my approach. > > > > > > What is my approach? To make it clear, it is to follow the > Buddha's > > > instruction on being mindful of breathing as recorded in > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor 14563 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 4:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi Kom, here's my answers to your two sets of questions: 1) What is a meditation practice? Larry: Relaxed attention to a single subject; may or may not be contemplative. For example, is it being at a specific place at a specific time? L: yes, what place is not specific? Is there a rule that we must follow in order for it to be a meditation practice? L: yes, one pointed (ekaggata) What are the specific results/progress of a practice? L: results = enlightenment, progress = peaceful, calm, fewer worries, fewer desires, realization of anatta by degrees from shallow to deep to complete Do we have to be at peace to practice? L: yes, although agitation may be an object of meditation Do we have to follow rituals that we don't normally follow in order to be called practice? L: yes, if our normal life is careless If we are now mindful of the realities that are occuring now, is that a practice? L: yes, if we are robbing a bank with mindfulness, there is still a tiny bit of practice involved 2) Is what we learn about realities from the Buddha the same as what we "observe" in the practice? Or do we learn one thing, and during the practice, we observe another? L: We learn a mountain of concepts and observe a few realities 3) What do we learn when we "practice"? Is it the same or different from what we learn in hearing and considering? L: I don't think we 'learn' calmness from answering email questions 4) What's the difference between "sati" and "wanting to observe what's going on?" L: Sati isn't particularly curious 5) Is wanting more sati a condition for the rising of more sati? L: yes, desire condition Is the intention to observe realities a condition for the rising of sati? L: yes, intention condition Kom: From the following, what are the paths, what are not the paths, what are the factors contributing to the path, what are not the factors contributing to the path? What are the teachings of the Buddha, what are not the teachings of the Buddha? 1) Doing things slowly like walking slowly, eating slowly? 2) Oberserving silence, not speaking to each other, regardless of what the topics of discussions? 3) Observing the sila, like the 5, the 8, or the 227? 4) Being mindful of realities that are appearing? 5) Wanting to be more mindful? 6) Hearing the dhamma? 7) Considering the dhamma? 8) Mental peacefulness? Being free from the thoughts that cause us discomfort? 9) Eating only twice a day? 10) Discussing the dhamma? Larry: all the above are factors contributing to the path and teachings of the Buddha. what are your answers? Larry 14564 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:27am Subject: khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi all, whilst investigating khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) I came across the following snippet which bears on the ongoing discussion of mindfulness of breathing. There is actually very little discussion of this particular samadhi in Visuddhimagga, so if anyone knows of a fuller exposition on khanika samadhi, please pass it along. I also have a short comment at the end. The following is a word commentary on the line "He trains thus 'I shall breathe in concentrating the [manner of] consciousness'; he trains thus 'I shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness." (S. v, 321-2) "Concentrating (samadaham) the [manner of] consciousness:" evenly (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics [of impermanence. and so on]. Thus the words 'He trains thus "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness" ', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of the mind arisen thus. Vism VIII 232 Larry: This seems to indicate that khanika samadhi is preceded by the first jhana but another modern source offered it as an alternative to access or absorption concentration. Whatever the case may be, the point seems to be that khanika samadhi is recognizing the meditation object as exemplifying the three characteristics (anicca, dhukkha, anatta). This is welcome news as almost any kind of family and work is an obstacle which must be abandoned for an extended period of time in order to enter jhana. So my understanding is that recognizing (in momentary concentration) the three characteristics satisfies the sammasamadhi part of the 8fold path. How do you see it? Larry 14565 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati - [Larry/Jon] Hi Larry. I haven't had occasion to answer your posts in the past, although I have noticed how studious and dedicated to the subject you are. But in this case you've hit upon an area that is very intriguing to me. I am not only very interested in the role that the jhana may play in preparing the mind for an act of mindfulness after the fact, as this commentary may suggest, but I am also extremely interested in the language of the commentary you have quoted. It is always interesting for me to note that the actual language of the commentaries, even though it is in translation, is very intriguing and sophisticated. It always seems to represent a kind of philosophical understanding that is illuminating. Anyway, to start with what you said about the commentary implying that the momentary act of mindfulness would satisfy the requirement for samasamadhi in the noble eightfold path, I will not attempt to comment directly on that, since it would display my woeful ignorance of the subject, but I will comment on the topic in a more general way. it seems to me from the quote you have given, that the jhanas seem to play a role in what the commentator is talking about, even in the last instance when evenness of mindfulness is attributed to one who engages discerns the chararacteristics of the object in momentary discernment. It is at least interesting that the entire segment of the commentary quoted uses immersion in jhana as its example. First the commentator talks about penetration "... by means of the first jhana and so on.", meaning the other jhanas I presume. Then the commentator gives his alternate example, which takes place *after* return from the jhanas: "Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and to fall..." I'm not sure if we can put aside the fact that this act of waking discernment is taking place on the heels of immersion in the jhanas. Is it possible that the preparation of the mind through the jhanas is what allows the discernment of the three characteristics upon return from the jhanas? I think this is implied. It is clear in any case, by the ubiquitous presence of the jhanas in the example, that the commentator is speaking to, or at least about, an advanced practitioner who is regularly going in and out of the jhanas. This should not only be interesting from those who have thought that abhidhamma does not take the jhanas as a necessary structural object, but also for those like Jon and myself who are engaged in the ongoing assessment of the role of the jhanas in satisfying Right Concentration. It seems that the commentaries are directed to abhidhammists who are indeed quite involved with the practice of the jhanas. Thank you so much for finding this commentary! If there is more material on the jhanas in here, I would be very interested in hearing about it. Perhaps Jon has this commentary as well, and can look at it for our jhana project. The other thing that I found even more intriguing about this commentary, are the turns of phrase which I think are badly in need of a sub-commentary, if there is one, to explain what they mean. And perhaps a sub-sub-commentary and translational key from our resident scholars. I won't mention any names. [hint] Here are the terms that I find incredibly intriguing. Perhaps for some on the list, they will be well-known and easily explained: 1. "evenly placing the mind...[on the object of meditation]..." "Evenly placing the mind..." Isn't that wonderful? This language does not seem as precise as some of the abhidhammic language I'm used to hearing, but is very satisfying for its imagery. Since there is only a given citta discerning its one object in conjunction with cetasikas, what would it mean in a given moment to 'evenly place the mind', and how and/or by who is the mind so evenly placed? The idea that the mind can have evenness or unevenness in its approach to discernment is extremely intriguing. Evenness as a synonym for mindfulness as it seems to be here, is even more interesting. 2. "...momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics..." "Momentary unification of the mind." Wow. Isn't that beautiful? These two phrases, "Evenly placing the mind", and "Momentary unification of the mind" are absolutely poetic, they are very pleasing, and so I wonder if they are meant imagistically, or whether the commentator means them to be literal. If literal, well, I think I'll sign up right away, because I like the sense of these actions very much. Now, what would it mean to cause 'unification' of the mind through discernment of the three characteristics of all dhammas. How does the mind become unified? Does it mean that the citta in question has a kind of harmony with all the accompanying cetasikas, that none of them has ignorance as a characteristic and thus there is no barrier to their being totally self-discerning in that moment; does it mean that there is no separation between the citta and its object through the opacity of not seeing what it really is? In the metaphoric sense, it sounds like this means that the citta is transparent to its object and itself and takes in the object completely as it is with no resistance or separation. If that is the case, it would be a highly enlightened citta, and so it makes sense that this is given as an advanced moment of insight. But I would be extremely interested to hear the sub-commentary of one of the ancient commentators, or of one of our modern commentators on the list. 3/ Last of all, I would just like to point out the conjunction of these two terms in the 'final product' of the commentary: "...one who evenly places the mind, evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of the mind arisen thus." One who evenly places the mind, meaning one who evenly puts it on its object; and the reason they are able to put it evenly on the object is because of the momentary unification of mind facilitated by the moment of insight in which the object is seen truly for its three overriding characteristics of anicca, anatta and dukkha. So: the meditator emerges from the jhanas, and as he returns to reflective consciousness, he has a moment of insight in which he understands that even the jhana which he had been immersed in, a high state of concentration, is also impermanent, lacking a self, and ultimately unsatisfying. And at the very moment when he realizes this about the jhana, his mind becomes unified via this insight, and throught his unification of mind he sees the jhana truly for what it is, just another arising and falling dhamma. This unifies his mind, and with his mind thus unified, he is able to place the mind evenly upon the object and discern it with complete evenness. Going back to the beginning of the quote, remember that the commentator starts by saying that the initial way in which the object may be approached with evenness is via the jhana itself. Within the jhanas, the commentator speaks of "evenly (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on...". And I think it is pretty clear that in saying this, the commentator is saying that the jhanas themselves are indeed a means by which true discernment can be gained. I'll be interested in the response of Jon and others. I think there's an awful lot to explore here. Thanks again, Larry, for opening this up. Best, Robert Ep. ===================== --- <> wrote: > Hi all, whilst investigating khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) I > came across the following snippet which bears on the ongoing discussion > of mindfulness of breathing. There is actually very little discussion of > this particular samadhi in Visuddhimagga, so if anyone knows of a fuller > exposition on khanika samadhi, please pass it along. I also have a short > comment at the end. > > The following is a word commentary on the line "He trains thus 'I shall > breathe in concentrating the [manner of] consciousness'; he trains thus > 'I shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness." (S. > v, 321-2) > > "Concentrating (samadaham) the [manner of] consciousness:" evenly > (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by > means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having > entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with > insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to > destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary > unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the > characteristics [of impermanence. and so on]. Thus the words 'He trains > thus "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner > of] consciousness" ', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, > evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of > the mind arisen thus. Vism VIII 232 > > Larry: This seems to indicate that khanika samadhi is preceded by the > first jhana but another modern source offered it as an alternative to > access or absorption concentration. Whatever the case may be, the point > seems to be that khanika samadhi is recognizing the meditation object as > exemplifying the three characteristics (anicca, dhukkha, anatta). ... ...So my understanding is that recognizing (in momentary > concentration) the three characteristics satisfies the sammasamadhi part > of the 8fold path. How do you see it? > > Larry 14566 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Good questions, Howard. Thanks for asking them, and I will sign on to your questions and wait for Jon's answer. Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Rob) - > > In a message dated 7/27/02 6:05:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > > Rob Ep > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Please excuse me for butting in. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Perhaps 'in > > brief' will do... > > > > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > > kusala such as samatha. > > > > Jon > > > ================================ > How's this? Samatha is a condition for the development of samadhi. > Actually, they are mutually supportive, but the stating of calm as leading to > concentration is frequent. (Generally, an upset mind has trouble > concentrating, and a calm mind has little trouble.) As you say, calm is > precondition for the jhanas, with calm easing the way to increasing > one-pointedness. In many places, the first four jhanas are the definition of > right concentration. (Yes, right concentration is also defined otherwise in a > few places, but most often and prominently as the first four jhanas.) And > right concentration is one of the factors of the 8-fold path, none of which > do I recall reading is expendable. ...My guess is that you > are concerned with an emphasis on these leading to or springing from an atta > view which accepts a controlling agent. Am I correct in that? > > With metta, > Howard 14567 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). Not complete, but useful for the moment. Perhaps 'in > brief' will do... Sure, that'll do. > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > kusala such as samatha. It seems to me that if samatha were only valued in being kusala, that it would a rather arbitrary state. If only for efficiency, Buddha would not choose an arbitrary object. He would choose it not only for being a kusala state, but one which had a special characteristic that was necessary for enlightenment. Samatha is calmness or peacefulness. So my question would be: What is the special value of peacefulness in the noble eightfold path? If there is none, then it is very strange that samatha is hanging around there, with no special purpose other than being a kusala state. Even stranger that samatha is so highly valued among Buddhists, if it has no real importance. Why does the Buddha himself say that enlightenment with samatha is a higher attainment than enlightenment without it? There's got to be a good reason, and it will point to the intrinsic value of samatha as a support or facilitator of wisdom. Best, Robert Ep. 14568 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/27/02 8:29:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi all, whilst investigating khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) I > came across the following snippet which bears on the ongoing discussion > of mindfulness of breathing. There is actually very little discussion of > this particular samadhi in Visuddhimagga, so if anyone knows of a fuller > exposition on khanika samadhi, please pass it along. I also have a short > comment at the end. > > The following is a word commentary on the line "He trains thus 'I shall > breathe in concentrating the [manner of] consciousness'; he trains thus > 'I shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness." (S. > v, 321-2) > > "Concentrating (samadaham) the [manner of] consciousness:" evenly > (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by > means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having > entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with > insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to > destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary > unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the > characteristics [of impermanence. and so on]. Thus the words 'He trains > thus "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner > of] consciousness" ', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, > evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of > the mind arisen thus. Vism VIII 232 > > Larry: This seems to indicate that khanika samadhi is preceded by the > first jhana but another modern source offered it as an alternative to > access or absorption concentration. Whatever the case may be, the point > seems to be that khanika samadhi is recognizing the meditation object as > exemplifying the three characteristics (anicca, dhukkha, anatta). This > is welcome news as almost any kind of family and work is an obstacle > which must be abandoned for an extended period of time in order to enter > jhana. So my understanding is that recognizing (in momentary > concentration) the three characteristics satisfies the sammasamadhi part > of the 8fold path. How do you see it? > > Larry > =========================== I may be misunderstanding this, of course, but it seems to me that this mainly discusses several things *other* than khanika samadhi: 1) using the base of a jhana to attend to things, 2) using the access concentration available upon emerging from a jhana to attend to the impermanence of the jhana itself, and 3) the powerful samadhi at the moment of the arising of wisdom (maybe of path consciousness?). In any case, none of this seems to me to be a traditional discussing of moment-to-moment concentration. Moment-to-moment concentration, BTW, from my own Goenka-retreat experience, *can* be an amazingly powerful, incisive tool for investigation - just not quite as stable as "deeper" states. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 10:00pm Subject: Perfections Ch 3, no. 6 Perfections, Ch 3, no 6. Also the Bodhisatta had at times to associate with fools. For example, during one of his lives the Bodhisatta belonged to a clan of people with wrong view. In his life as the brahmin youth Jotipåla he was born into a family of people who had wrong view and no confidence in the Buddha 4. Jotipåla followed his parents in their disdain of the Buddha. The brahmins who had wrong view had no confidence in the Buddha Kassapa, who was the last Buddha before the Buddha Gotama. The Commentary to the ³Discourse on Ghatikåra², Middle Length Sayings, the ³Papañcasúdaní², deals with the accumulation of the perfections by the Bodhisatta until the life he was Jotipåla, when he came into contact with people of wrong view. The Commentary compared the accumulated perfections to a brightly shining fire which during that life came into contact with water and was therefore extinguished by it so that the rays of light disappeared and only black charcoal was left (5. We do not know our past lives but we can learn from the story of the Bodhisatta as Jotipåla: although he had accumulated the perfections to a high degree, he still associated with fools. We can learn that we should not be heedless and see the danger in association with fools. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², in the ³Miscellaneous Sayings²: Now comes the method of practising the perfection of virtue (síla). Since the Great Man desires to adorn beings with the adornment of the virtue of the omniscient, at the beginning he must first purify his own virtue. Herein, virtue is purified in four modes: 1. by the purification of one¹s inclinations (ajjhåsayavisuddhi); 2. by the undertaking of precepts (samådåna); 3. by non-transgression (avítikkamana); 4. by making amends for transgressions (patipåkatikarana). In this way we can check síla in our daily life. We should know whether our síla is pure. We read: For someone who is dominated by personal ideals, is naturally disgusted with evil through the purity of his own inclinations and purifies his conduct by arousing his inward sense of shame (hiri). Someone else who is dominated by consideration for the world, afraid of evil, purifies his conduct by receiving precepts from another person and by arousing his sense of moral dread (ottappa) 6). Both establish themselves in virtue through non-transgression. But if, due to forgetfulness, they sometimes break a precept, through their sense of shame and moral dread, respectively, they quickly make amends for it through the proper means of rehabilitation. In these ways síla is purified. We read further on about the virtue of the Bodhisatta: When he speaks, his statements should be truthful, beneficial, and endearing, and his talk measured, timely, and concerned with the Dhamma. His mind should always be devoid of covetousness, ill-will, and perverted views. He should possess the knowledge of the ownership of kamma 7), and have settled faith and affection for recluses and brahmins who are faring and practising rightly... By desisting from false speech his word comes to be authoritive for others. He is regarded as reliable and trustworthy, one whose statements are always accepted. He is dear and agreeable to deities. His mouth gives off a sweet fragrance and he guards his bodily and vocal conduct. He achieves distinguished characteristics, and eradicates the mental impressions of the defilements 8) . Footnotes: 4. See Middle Length Sayings II, no. 81, On Ghatíkåra. 5. See also ³Milinda¹s Questions² II, The Dilemmas , Fifth Division, 6: Birth as Jotipåla. 6. The ³Atthasåliní² ( I, Part IV, Ch I, 125-127) explains that hiri, shame, has a subjective origin; its proximate cause is repect for oneself. Whereas ottappa, fear of blame or moral dread, has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is repect for someone else. Hiri and ottappa always arise together, but they have different characteristics. 7. Kammassakatå ñåùa, understanding that kamma is the cause of vipåka, result. Beings will receive the appropriate results of their deeds. 8. The Påli has: våsanå. Even arahats who have eradicated all defilements may still have a way of speech or action that is not agreeable to others. This is not motivated by akusala, but it is due to their habits in the past which have been accumulated. Only a Buddha can eradicate våsanå. 14570 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati - [Larry/Jon] Hi Robert, most of the questions you raise are beyond my ken but I would like to make a couple of comments and add some quotes from a modern teacher. First, it may not have been clear that I took the original material from the Visuddhimagga (Path Of Purification). And secondly, I think the reason many modern teachers, not just abhidhamma specialists, down-play jhana is that jhana is simply not going to happen for most people. The following is from "The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight Knowledges" by The Venerable Mahathera Matara Sri Nanarama (BPS). This is a summary of the Visuddhimagga, which in turn is an expansion of a path scheme that is laid out in seven stages, found in one or two sutta. This quote comes from the second stage,"Purification of Mind", follows "Purification of Virtue", and preceeds "Purification Of View", at which stage discrimination of nama and rupa is made: "There are three kinds of concentration qualifying as Purification of Mind: access concentration (upacara-samadhi), absorption concentration (appana-samadhi), and momentary concentration (khanika-samadhi). The first two are achieved through the vehicle of serenity (samatha), the last through the vehicle of insight (vipassana). Momentary concentration possesses the same strength of mental unification as access concentration. Since it is equipped with the ten conditions mentioned above, and holds the five hindrances at bay, it aids the attainment of insight knowledge. However, because it does not serve directly as a basis for jhana as such, it is not called access concentration. " Later, at the end of the book in an appendix titled "Oneness": "One thing worth mentioning in this connection is that if the meditators practising insight meditation have already obtained either an access concentration or an absorption concentration through some kind of serenity meditation, it will be comparatively easy for them to achieve the desired results. On the other hand, one who takes up the practice of pure insight meditation without any prior experience in concentration will have to put forth, from the very start, an unremitting endeavor until the desired results are attained. He should, in fact, give up all expectations for his body and life in an all-out struggle to reach the Supreme Goal." Larry: The "desired result" and "oneness" both refer to concentration. At the beginning of this appendix is the following: "It is said in the "Patisambhidamagga": The mind cleansed in these six respects becomes purified and reaches oneness. And what are these onenesses? (1) Th oneness aroused by the recollection of liberality; (2) the oneness aroused by the occurence of the sign of serenity meditation; (3) the oneness aroused by the occurence of the characteristic of dissoution: and (4) the oneness aroused by the occurence of cessation. The oneness brought about by the recollection of liberality applies to those who are of a generous disposition. The oneness aroused by the ocurrence of the sign of serenity meditation is attainable by those who apply themselves to the development of the mind. The oneness aroused by the occurence of the characteristic of dissolution is peculiar to those who develop insight meditation. The oneness aroused by the occurence of cessation is an experience of the Noble Ones. Ps.I,166ff." L: one interesting point I take from this is that khanika samadhi (recognition of a/d/a) isn't insight knowledge. Larry 14571 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi Howard, I couldn't find a "traditional discussion of moment to moment concentration." Do you have a source? There is a lot on insight meditation of course; but my impression is that that is usually discussed as satipatthana, not samadhi. Larry 14572 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 28, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/28/02 2:35:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, I couldn't find a "traditional discussion of moment to moment > concentration." Do you have a source? There is a lot on insight > meditation of course; but my impression is that that is usually > discussed as satipatthana, not samadhi. > > Larry > ========================== I shouldn't have written "traditional". All I've seen are secondary sources, by modern teachers, usually vipassana meditation teachers, such as Ven U Pandita and Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, who, for example, wrote the following (which I took from ATI: "Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge." I really have nothing else worthwhile to offer in this regard. Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14573 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Thanks Howard, this is perfect. I had searched ATI previously, but without finding anything. Any suggestions on where I could find more of the same? It looks like the purpose of concentration is to dispell the five hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, agitation and remorse, and doubt) in order to facilitate insight (seeing things as they are). Insight concentration, if we can call it that, seems to use the specific recognition of anicca, dukkha, anatta to accomplish that task. I think some degree of tranquility has to be in place just because agitation is dispelled. How do you see it? As I recall my own meditation instruction of many, many years ago, cueing on impermanence etc. wasn't particularly emphasized, so this is something new to me. Are the three characteristics emphasized in Mr. Goenka's proceedure? Larry ---------------- Howard wrote: I shouldn't have written "traditional". All I've seen are secondary sources, by modern teachers, usually vipassana meditation teachers, such as Ven U Pandita and Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, who, for example, wrote the following (which I took from ATI: "Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge." I really have nothing else worthwhile to offer in this regard. Sorry. With metta, Howard 14574 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/28/02 4:10:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Thanks Howard, this is perfect. I had searched ATI previously, but > without finding anything. Any suggestions on where I could find more of > the same? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not immediately, but I will look. ------------------------------------------------------- > > It looks like the purpose of concentration is to dispell the five > hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, agitation and > remorse, and doubt) in order to facilitate insight (seeing things as > they are). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this seems to be consistently the case, whether one is discussing absorptive concentration, access concentration, or momentary concentration. -------------------------------------------------------- Insight concentration, if we can call it that, seems to use> > the specific recognition of anicca, dukkha, anatta to accomplish that > task. I think some degree of tranquility has to be in place just because > agitation is dispelled. How do you see it? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ultimately, wisdom must directly apprehend the tilakkhana in order to go beyond mere calming and temporary suppression of hindrances. Insight meditation doesn't *use* these. Any meditative cultivation, whether it be samatha followed by vipassana, or the opposite, or the two in tandem, when based on right view and sila, and when pursued to the point of being "successful", LEADS to the arising of insight into the tilakkhana. ------------------------------------------------------- > > As I recall my own meditation instruction of many, many years ago, > cueing on impermanence etc. wasn't particularly emphasized, so this is > something new to me. Are the three characteristics emphasized in Mr. > Goenka's proceedure? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Respected Goenka's approach begins with meditation on the breath as a vehicle for inducing calm and suppressing the hindrances (and this will develop to varying levels, depending on the individual), and continues with mindfulness of bodily sensations. When this proceeds far enough, direct apprehension of impermanence is unavoidable it seems. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry =========================== With metta, Howard > ---------------- > Howard wrote: > I shouldn't have written "traditional". All I've seen are secondary > sources, by modern teachers, usually vipassana meditation teachers, such > as Ven U Pandita and Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, who, for example, wrote > the following (which I took from ATI: > "Whereas the sequence of > training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the > vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the > concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is > needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access > concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to > this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the > access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of > serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite > its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of > concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic > concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing > flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and > collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary > concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his > post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it > develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight > practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive > object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit > concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a > different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining > jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by > observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary > concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary > concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the > serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for > insight to emerge." > I really have nothing else > worthwhile to offer in this regard. Sorry. > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14575 From: <> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi Howard, I would like to read some more from you and anyone else on wisdom (panna). We haven't studied it yet in ADL, so I'm interested in its properties and functions and relation to insight. Additionally, I think the conventional apprehension of impermanence is pretty useful; I think you are making such an insight too lofty and inaccessible. In the 7 stage path of purification this is only the second stage; we haven't even distinguished between nama and rupa yet. I suppose (not sure) the profundity of an insight relates to how deeply it goes in changing the mind of latent tendencies. Like to read more on this too. Larry 14576 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] khanika samadhi in anapanasati Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/28/02 6:51:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Howard, I would like to read some more from you and anyone else on > wisdom (panna). We haven't studied it yet in ADL, so I'm interested in > its properties and functions and relation to insight. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Better "talk" to the Abhidhamma experts on this. To me, wisdom is merely direct apprehension of things as they actually are, with their actual nature exposed, and not mediated by concepts. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Additionally, I think the conventional apprehension of impermanence is > pretty useful; I think you are making such an insight too lofty and > inaccessible. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you misread me on this. I also think that apprehension of impermanence at the conventional level is useful. In fact, we can learn to see impermanence, insubstantiality, and impersonality wherever we look. However, conventional apprehension of impermanence doesn't compare to its direct apprehension at finer, more direct, levels of experience. For example, at the Goenka retreat I attended, at a certain point, I came to directly observe the "body" dissolve into a constant arising and ceasing of what seemed to be millions of miniscule packets of energy - each pulse ceasing with nothing remaining. This led to a "no-self" experience one evening (not while meditating) which lasted for an hour or two, and which, despite being actually frightening at the time, seems to have had some lasting salutary effects. I do think that we can also make much "progress" at the day-to-day level of experiencing, and, in this I agree with the importance that Jon and Sarah and others here place on mindfulness under "ordinary" circumstances (i.e., when not engaged in formal meditation). I do absolutely believe that a background of meditative cultivation (previous and ongoing) conditions the mind to be more effective in "seeing" under ordinary circumstances, but that "seeing" under ordinary circumstances, itself, is VERY important. In this regard, I have been engaging for a while now in the practice of what might be called "seing through pa~n~natti" (or trying to). For example, I will look at a conventional object such as bathroom tissue ;-)), and make the effort to attend to what I *actually* see. And what I actually, directly see is, incredibly, not bathroom tissue with certain shape and folds, but, rather, varying shades of whiteness. The point is that the so-called "bathroom tissue" is not what is *really* being seen. Similarly, with close attending to a so-called "pain in the leg", the "pain in the leg" eventually disappears, being replaced by what is actually directly observed: a changing stream of strong pressures, pulses, and tingles interspersed with feelings of unpleasantness, and interspersed with aversive reactions to that unpleasantness. This is most easily done when the mind has already been calmed and relatively cleared by samatha meditation, but it can also be done at "ordinary" times, though with less clarity. -------------------------------------------------------- In the 7 stage path of purification this is only the > second stage; we > haven't even distinguished between nama and rupa yet. I > suppose (not sure) the profundity of an insight relates to how deeply it > goes in changing the mind of latent tendencies. Like to read more on > this too. > > Larry > > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14577 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:10pm Subject: worm_Klez.H virus Dear Friends and Family, Please forgive the inconvenience, but my computer was infected this morning with the virus listed above. It automatically mailed itself to everyone in my address book, without my needing to open the email itself for it to do its dirty work. Again, please forgive the inconvenience, Betty. _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 14578 From: Num Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3, comments Dear Nina, <> Nina: I like this very much, it all begins with listening. And as said above: < Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana.> One of the conditions for satipatthana is firm remembrance. That comes from listening and considering again and again. The Thai Co, p. 37, uses the word bahussuta, who has heard much.>> Num: Yes, I now hear from Aj.Sujin almost every week about the importance of listening (also reading and studying) and panna that comes along with listening. Panna can be at pariyatti (logic, reasoning or manasikara) level, or patipatti (actual satipatthana moment: phassa, sound, ear conscious, thinking/understanding the sound and its meaning, associated dhamma of hearing/listening/understanding) level. <<2) Silamayan~ana. Nina: the Co. p. 37, speaks about understanding that has been accomplished through listening. And Co elaborates (p. 39) on the different types of sila . As you mentioned there are many kinds, and when we study these we see that sila is not just abstaining. Under patimokkha, the example is taken: a monk sees visible object but he is not taken in by the image of a whole or the details. Thus this is guarding the doorways, indriya samvara sila. The most effective guarding is by satipatthana. Awareness of visible object as only a kind of rupa, of seeing as only a kind of nama. No dosa towards visible object or sound, they are not a person. About sati and panna as sila: the C o mentions about sati as restraint or that which holds back a stream, whereas panna is the dam, it is the most effective to dam the stream (of defilements), See Sutta Nipata, vs. 1034, 1035.>> Num: during the kusala citta moment, one abstains from defilement, just briefly and then it’s fallen away. Sila comes in different intensity, the most powerful one is sila in maggacitta moment. At that moment 3 basic magga factors (silavisuddhi, cittavisuddhi(samatha), and pannavisuddhi) simultaneous perform their functions: completely discard and eradicate dormant kilesa(anusaya). <<3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na > Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. > Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who contains in > restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single point with the abilit y of > upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, knowledge in samadhicitta, or associate d > with samadhicitta. > > 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means > sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, sabhava: kusaladham ma, > akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma > called dhamma because it is being arisen sustained by its conditions. Kno wing > by discernment of each dhammaนs conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( attha katha > then says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. Nina: for the sake of terms which may be difficult for those who do not kno w Pali: nama-rupa-paricheda~naa.na is the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. The second one, paccayapariggha ~naa.na is the direct understanding o f conditions. A question: some people think, when they read the Visuddhimagga, that you have to know all conditions for each nama and rupa or know them by reasoning. But insight is not theory, but panna that directly knows. It jus t knows that seeing is vipaka condiitoned by kamma, conditioned by object and base. could you obtain additional info about this stage which is not reasoning? As to thi.ti , dhamma thi.ti ~naa.na, See English p. 36. This is translated as stagnation, which is not good. I would say: stabilisation. This is a difficult part: is it that panna has become firmer?>> Num: Panna at this ~nana level is still very weak (tarunavipassana). My understanding is panna at this level sees the conditions that maintain/sustain/stabilize each reality, Even though each dhamma exists very briefly, but it cannot be existed without conditions. < paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clea rly > (vipassana), one’s mind is one-pointed, or when one’s mind is one-poi nted, > he/she sees clearly. Nina:... when one’s mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. What degree of one-pointedness? >> Num: It depends on one’s own accumulation. Degree of one-pointedness (ekaggata-cetasika) is different from non-jhana and jhana person, but its function is the same: to weld together its associated dhamma. <>< dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make sa madhi > and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.>><< Nina: Here the Co, p. 51, is short. I like more info if possible. Is it that someone is so enticed by jhana that he does not apply insight and thus keep s on taking jhana for self? Thus, the yogi who has accumulated conditions for high degrees of samadhi should practise samadhi and vipassana as a pair, an d keep on applying himself to this. Is that correct? >> Num: The two paragraphs on p.51 are very crucial. Let me re-quote: >><><< Samadhi is not exactly equal to samatha. Samatha as a pairing dhamma with vispassana (as it’s referred to in samatha-vipassana development) refers to adhicittasikkha/cittavisuddhi, which includes ekaggata-, sati-, and viriya cetasiks. A.Supee also gave some more detail on the difference between a person who attains nibbana with 8 magga factors vs 7 magga factors. My understanding, as I said, is Ven,Sariputta covered all possible means of attaining nibbana, with or without jhana. Jhana is neither necessary nor sufficient for nibbana. Jhana is also not contraindicated for attaining nibbana. Jhanna citta can be a base for magga citta, but pana at jhana citta level is not enough for vipassana. My understanding of the quote is samadhi in jhana citta is not exactly the same as samadhi in magga citta. If someone hold on the samadhi in jhana level, he cannot attain nibbana. When he let go of jhana and has samatha and vipassana (satipatthana/magga moment) as pairing dhamma, he then reaches the stream. I can ask A.Supee or A.Sujin if you have any questions/remarks. Best wishes. Num 14579 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 8:12pm Subject: Sarah / Jon available for Dinner Wednesday? Hi Sarah / Jon, I will be in HK on Wednesday. Meet for dinner? Please contact me at <> Thanks, Rob M :-) 14580 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) Dear Jon, Let me add to my own post, that from recent discussion I surmise that the purpose of samatha is to aid discernment both through calm and perhaps by suppressing defilements, although I'm not sure that suppression of defilements takes place below the level of jhana. In any case, samatha is the doorway to jhana as I understand -- interested if you disagree -- and at the level of jhana defilements are suppressed so that insight may arise without their obstruction. Interested to hear your comments. Best, Robert Ep. ============== --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > I'm not sure what constitutes 'temporary clarifiction' ;-)). > > Not complete, but useful for the moment. > > Perhaps 'in > > brief' will do... > > Sure, that'll do. > > > 1. What is it that samatha is *necessary* for? > > As far as I know, samatha is not said to be a necessary pre-condition for > > anything (other than attainment of the jhanas, of course). > > > > 2. What is it's great value as far as you know so far? > > It's great value is that it is kusala. > > > > 3. What role *does* it play in the development of > > insight/enlightenment/liberation? > > All forms of kusala support the develoment of panna (understanding of > > dhaammas) and panna in turn brings to purification the other forms of > > kusala such as samatha. > > It seems to me that if samatha were only valued in being kusala, that it would a > rather arbitrary state. If only for efficiency, Buddha would not choose an > arbitrary object. He would choose it not only for being a kusala state, but one > which had a special characteristic that was necessary for enlightenment. > > Samatha is calmness or peacefulness. So my question would be: What is the > special value of peacefulness in the noble eightfold path? If there is none, > then > it is very strange that samatha is hanging around there, with no special purpose > other than being a kusala state. Even stranger that samatha is so highly valued > among Buddhists, if it has no real importance. > > Why does the Buddha himself say that enlightenment with samatha is a higher > attainment than enlightenment without it? There's got to be a good reason, and > it > will point to the intrinsic value of samatha as a support or facilitator of > wisdom. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 14581 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:00am Subject: Mindfulness of Breathing, the 16 sections in the Vis. Dear Larry and Rob Ep, Thank you for your input. There are many things to consider in the passage you quoted. As we can see, the right conditions for jhana and for vipassana have to be developed, nothing arises automatically. I would like to go back somewhat in this section on breathing. I shall make use of what I wrote in my Book "The World in the Buddhist Sense". We should note that there is a division into four sections of four clauses each in this sutta which, in the Visuddhimagga, are marked from I-XVI. I noticed that Larry and Rob Ep were already dealing with the third tetrad, group of four, but now we could start with the first tetrad. Some tetrads deal with calm, some with vipassana, as we shall see. First I quote the sutta. The sutta (K V, Book X, Ch 1, §1,) states: It has been described by the Blessed One as having sixteen bases thus: ŒAnd how developed, bhikkhus, how practised much is concentration through mindfulness of breathing both peaceful and sublime, an unadulterated blissful abiding, banishing at once and stilling evil unprofitable thoughts as soon as they arise? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (I) Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long². (II) Breathing in short, he knows ³I breathe in short²; or breathing out short, he knows ³I breathe out short². (III) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². (IV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity². (V) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing happiness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing happiness². (VI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing bliss²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing bliss². (VII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation². (VIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the mental formation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the mental formation². (IX) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the (manner of) consciousness². (X) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in gladdening the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness². (XI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in concentrating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out concentrating the (manner of) consciousness². (XII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in liberating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness². (XIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence². (XIV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating fading away²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating fading away². (XV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating cessation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating cessation². (XVI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment². In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read: Those who develop both jhåna and vipassanå should, after the jhånacitta has fallen away, be aware of nåma and rúpa, clearly know their different characteristics and develop all stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 and following). It depends on the accumulated wisdom whether the different stages of insight can be realized within a short time or whether they are developed very gradually during a long period of time. ŒAfter he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and has become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last attains to the nineteen kinds of ³Reviewing Knowledge², and he becomes fit to receive the highest gifts from the world with its deities.¹ It is evident that only those who had accumulated great wisdom could attain jhåna with ³mindfulness of breathing² as meditation subject, and then attain arahatship. The Visuddhimagga carefully describes the development of jhana, of the jhanafactors which counteract the hindrances. Someone may wonder how we can know that jhana is attained, could it not happen that someone takes for jhana what is a trance but not jhana? This is a matter of panna. Panna and sati are necessary. When there is panna there is no doubt. Panna should know when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and this not in theory, but right at the moment it appears. Panna should know the different jhanafactors which are cetasikas, and not merely in theory. Take the jhanafactors piti, rapture, and sukha, pleasant feeling. In daily life and in the lower stages of jhana they arise together, but can they be clearly distinguished? Only panna can do this. it is trhe same in the case of vitakka and vicara, applied thinking and discursive thinking. They usually arise together, but, in the development of jhana panna should be able to distinguish them. After emerging from jhana one should know with insight all nama and rupa that appear. All stages of insight have to be developed, beginning with tender insight, distinguishing the characteristic of rupa from the characteristic of nama. How could otherwise the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, impermanence be realized? As I wrote before, one should also have mastery of jhana (Vis. IV, 131). One should be able to attain jhana and emerge from it at any time, in any place. Next time I shall go to the following tetrads. Best wishes from Nina. 14582 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 7:33am Subject: ADL ch. 18 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 18 (1) ELEMENTS The Buddha spoke about realities as elements in order to remind us that they are impermanent and not self. When we speak about elements we usually think of the elements in chemistry or physics which have each their own characteristics. In chemistry and physics matter is analysed into elements, but it may seem strange to us to regard the eye or seeing as elements. We are not used to consider them as elements because we are inclined to take them for 'self'. What we take for self are only nama-elements and rupa-elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away again. Eyesense is only an element which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self; it is rupa which arises because of conditions and then falls away again. Seeing is only an element which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self; it is nama which arises because of conditions and falls away again. ln the Buddha's teachings realities are classified as elements, some of which are rupa and some of which are nama. When they are classified as eighteen elements; they are as follows: The five senses: 1. eye-element (cakkhu-dhatu) 2. ear-element (sota-dhatu) 3. nose-element (ghana-dhatu) 4. tongue-element (jivha-dhatu) 5. body-element (kaya-dhatu) which is the body-sense The five objects (experienced through the five senses): 6. visible object-element (rupa-dhatu) 7. sound-element (sadda-dhatu) 8. smell-element (gandha-dhatu) 9. taste-element (rasa-dhatu) 10. element of tangible objects (photthabba-dhatu), comprising the following three kinds of rupa: earth-element (solidity), appearing as hardness or softness fire-element (temperature), appearing as heat or cold wind-element, appearing as motion or pressure The dvi-panca-vinnanas (experiencing the five sense objects): 11. seeing-consciousness-element (cakkhu-vinnana-dhatu) 12. hearing-consciousness-element (sota-vinnan-adhatu) 13. smelling-consciousness-element (ghana-vinnana-dhatu) 14. tasting-consciousness-element (jivha-vinnana-dhatu) 15. body-consciousness-element (kaya-vinnana-dhatu) Three more elements: 16. mano-dhatu or mind-element 17. dhamma-dhatu 18. mano-vinnana-dhatu or mind-consciousness-element The five elements which are the five sense-doors are rupa and the five elements which are the objects experienced through the sense-doors are rupa as well. The five elements which are the dvi-panca-vinnanas, experiencing these objects, are nama. There are two cittas which are cakkhu-vinnana-dhatu, since seeing-consciousness can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. It is the same with the other panca-vinnanas. Thus there are 'five pairs' of citta which are panca-vinnana-dhatu. The element which is mano-dhatu or mind-element is nama. Mano-dhatu comprises the panca- dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) and the two types of sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) which are kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka. Thus three kinds of citta are mano-dhatu. 14583 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, the 16 sections in the Vis. Hi Nina, this is excellent! and I'm looking forward to the next installment. As a consequence of this discussion I have become intersted in the five hindrances (nivarana), sensuous desire (kamachnda), ill-will (vyapada), sloth and torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), and skeptical doubt (vicikiccha). So if you could work these into the discussion that would also be helpful. thanks a lot, Larry 14584 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, the 16 sections in the Vis. Thanks, Nina. I will certainly be waiting for your next installment. Thanks for the comments and quotes below. Best, Robert Ep. ======== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry and Rob Ep, > Thank you for your input. There are many things to consider in the passage > you quoted. As we can see, the right conditions for jhana and for vipassana > have to be developed, nothing arises automatically. I would like to go back > somewhat in this section on breathing. I shall make use of what I wrote in > my Book "The World in the Buddhist Sense". > > We should note that there is a division into four sections of four clauses > each in this sutta which, in the Visuddhimagga, are marked from I-XVI. I > noticed that Larry and Rob Ep were already dealing with the third tetrad, > group of four, but now we could start with the first tetrad. Some tetrads > deal with calm, some with vipassana, as we shall see. First I quote the > sutta. The sutta (K V, Book X, Ch 1, §1,) states: .... 14585 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:52pm Subject: Hello message Hello everyone I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no more. Out of the shadowlands of secretly reading your postings and into the sunlight of your group. I recently had the pleasure of meeting Jon, Sarah, Christine and many other wonderful people in Noosa, my hometown. This has given me the courage to tiptoe onto your screens and ask elementary questions. You see, whilst I have been interested in Theravada Buddhism for some 20 years, I have only recently begun to study Abhidhamma in detail. In the past, I have always looked upon Abhidhamma in much the same way as I look upon one of those unending shopping lists handed to me by the better half. No more. Thank you for sharing your knowledge! Cheers Andrew 14586 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, and All Andrew, thanks for ‘coming out’ and for your kind words about last weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, and I very much enjoyed meeting you and Ken H. To any who might be interested, Noosa (Queensland, Australia) is very well worth a visit if you are in the region. Changed almost beyond recognition from my last visit of 30 years ago (only surfies in ‘panel vans’ in those days) but by no means spoilt. A naturally beautiful and sheltered bay with interesting countryside around. An extra buzz for Sarah and I was meeting up with long-lost old Bangkok friends Azita (was Helen) Gill, Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, Sundhara (was Ven. Sundharo) and also Gilly Peachy, none of whom we had seen for 25 years or so; also telephone contact with Paul Barnett/Cittapalo (was Ven Jotipanno). To you all if listening or lurking (perhaps vicariously?), many thanks for making the effort to come and meet up again, Sarah and I appreciated it very much. You all came long distances (especially Azita who flew down from Cairns; Sundhara endured a 4-hour drive in his ancient Kombi van), I hope you enjoyed the occasion as much as Sarah and I did. Chris, I haven’t forgotten you either. Great seeing you again, and thanks for your contribution to the discussion and companionship on the weekend. And nice to get to know Sarah a little. Andrew and Ken H, if there is anything to follow-up on from our many chats on the weekend, please feel free to raise them here. I’m sure other members will have comments to add. For starters, I would like mention something that came up -- the difference, if any, between being born as a human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any thoughts or information on this? Thanks. Jon --- Andrew wrote: > Hello everyone > I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no > more. Out of the shadowlands of secretly reading your postings and into > the sunlight of your group. I recently had the pleasure of meeting Jon, > Sarah, Christine and many other wonderful people in Noosa, my hometown. > This has given me the courage to tiptoe onto your screens and ask > elementary questions. You see, whilst I have been interested in > Theravada Buddhism for some 20 years, I have only recently begun to > study Abhidhamma in detail. In the past, I have always looked upon > Abhidhamma in much the same way as I look upon one of those unending > shopping lists handed to me by the better half. No more. Thank you for > sharing your knowledge! Cheers > Andrew 14587 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:15pm Subject: back from the 'Spirit of Friendship Global Tour'....;-) Dear Christine (and All), (I hope to get back to 'proper posts' and to hear other Noosa friends' wise reflections after this little indulgence of post traumatic touch-down;-)) ***** You kindly asked me to tell you --”when you’ve caught your breath” -- how we nearly missed our flight....I think I’d better not wait for the breath-catching as I’ll have long since forgotten by then;-) It’s true that you and Azita guided us with few hitches to the airport and as you’d fortunately already announced on DSG that your sense of direction and sign-reading was not to be trusted, Jon --well, he is a lawyer --already knew to get second opinions -- otherwise this could have been posted from an internet cafe in Cairns.... It’s also true that even though Quantas’ check-in staff have obviously never heard about the Jonh Travolta ‘ International superstar and Quantas Ambassador-at-Large ...Spirit of Friendship global tour’ and did their best to put a spanner in the works in all the khanti and metta (patience and friendliness) accumulated -- and so easily discussed on golden beaches with dhamma friends --, they couldn’t be entirely blamed, even if it was as a result of their computer breakdowns that we were held up at immigration, helping to do their job for them. Now the real chink in the ‘Spirit of Friendship’ occurred at the GST reclaim desk on ‘the other side’. When we’d been encouraged to purchase 3 pairs of shoes in Bondi, we’d been assured that all we’d need to do would be to wave our receipt and they’d be overjoyed at the GST airport desk to hand over enough tax refund dollars to reimburse us for the airport breakfasts. The GST reclaim goodwill ambassadors didn’t quite see it like that and needed more evidence of purchases and a revision course on their books of rules. When they were told that one pair were in the post between Melbourne and Hong Kong, one pair was at the bottom of my bag under all the laundry (I was always taught to pack shoes first) and the third pair were the now scratched and sandy clogs on my feet, any semblance of remaining goodwill was lost. Still, a GST refund on two pairs out of three (paying for half the breakfasts anyway) did end up back in my pocket eventually. Meanwhile, I may have taken the khanti parami (patience perfection) reminders a little too far, waiting for the painfully slow process to unfold, because by the time I reached the boarding gate (Jon had wisely gone ahead and left me to sort out the GST mess), I had to thank the next Quantas ambassador for a little lecture on how he would have definitely shut me out without compuction if Jon hadn’t begged for mercy, (especially as I had no checked in luggage) and how this would have led to a non-refunded ticket at a cost of really a lot more breakfasts than I care to think about. I tried suggesting to him that he might like to coordinate with his ‘friends’ at GST and Quantas Check-in, but he assured me they were certainly not his friends, so there we have it -- a breakdown in the Quantas’ Spirit of Friendship. Anyway, we were appreciated when we got on the plane with a smile and ‘So, you must be the Abbotts’. We listened for the third time to John T’s ‘Quantas is the best and safest’ and came to appreciate his words when we left Sunny Queensland’s blue skies and sandy beaches and got close to arrival in Hong Kong. We were told by the pilot that there were heavy storms, it would certainly be bumpy, a few flights had missed the runway and so we’d be circling around for ‘a bit’ as they’d only just re-opened the runways (read: one hour, which could have been spent developing more khanti with my GST friends), before landing in zero visibility. As we bumped around with appropriate noise effects from some passengers, I reflected on the good dhamma reminders we’d been hearing over the last few days and the messages from the three films I’d just watched (a record for me) on the flight (with really lots of friendly smiles and great service): 1) High Crimes: How little we know about accumulations 2) Time machine: You cannot change the Past 3) Big Fat Liar: Truth is underestimated ***** Safely back and trying not to look too happy about having missed 10 days of torrential downpours this end (and more full page advertisements from Quantas with.. ..you guessed, John T)..... Hopefully more to follow with others’ prompts on the many wonderful discussions on concepts and realities and ‘only the present moment’.Tthe 25years we haven’t seen friends is gone and with it the stories, the tales of loss and heartbreak, the changing fortunes, the different lifestyles and ‘causes’ and papanca (proliferations) we’ve taken as being so important in ignorance during this time. I really have to thank you, Chris, and also Ken H and Andy for all the keen questions and comments which prevented the rest of us from over-indulging in stories too, too much from ‘When we were even whackier than we are now’..... Sarah p.s Chris, I’ve just realized I’ve spent more time with you than any other friend (other than Jon) this year to date....so, not surprising if the influence is apparent here.... Btw, do you think you should ask if anyone is travelling from anywhere to Kandy in Sri Lanka, so the little ‘borrowed’ item which appeared out of THE BAG at the airport --much like a rabbit out of a hat-- could get a ride? As Azita and I agreed, we’ll just leave you to add any details about this happy finding or the Attack from the Bubbles (otherwise safe with Ken H and ourselves), only and ONLY if it’s useful for progress on the Path;-)). ================================================================ 14588 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:59pm Subject: Late Welcome (was: Re: Vegetarianism) Hi KT, --- Immortal wrote: > I rarely comment on this group, ..... This may have even been the first time (unless you've changed yr address)......so hopefully now you've 'broken the ice', we'll be hearing more from you. It's helpful for us all to hear a range of comments and I appreciated yours and the others on this topic. As I think you are suggesting, we can have a long story about what is right or wrong and forget about the state of consciousness at this moment. Hope we see you out of the shadows a little more and we have a chance to get to know you better....and a belated welcome to DSG. Sarah p.s You have an interesting signature at the end of yr post below, which I'm contemplating as I sign off. ====== ..... >but on the topic of > vegetarianism I know a decent amount. There are many > tales of the buddha being welcomed into feasts and > eating meat. > > It comes down to the ever-changing reality. Each > reality, each belief is different from person to > person. If, a person believes that killing is wrong, > and eating meat is wrong than they are right. > > But, if you kill to survive and eat meat to survive. > That too is right. Its not about a single rule that > will govern Buddhism and a "static" reality. > > It comes down to the "flowing reality". If you keep > moving, if you are ever-changing with your reality > than what you do is correct if you do it with right > mindfulness. > > I myself eat meat, because there are health concerns > about the breakdown of protiens and such with my > active lifestyle. When I eat, I only *eat*. I focus > one hundred percent on eating, being thankful for > every single piece of food I have. Whether it be the > flesh of an animal or the flesh of a plant. It is all > sacred and something had to suffer and die for me to > eat no matter what I eat. > > Thats, my reality. Take what you will from it, and > think about your own reality. > > Thanks... > > KT. -- Returning to the Shadows. > > ===== > > The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not descend, and while > everything changes. > > Nothing is truly lost. 14589 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Dear Jon and all, The scariest thing, and biggest difference for me, is that it seems most animals don't have the ability to choose to perform kusala deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, and therefore so little chance to obtain a better rebirth. I often wonder whether the possibility of rebirth as an animal is something that people just pay lip-service to, but deep down don't believe. Whenever rebirth is considered, many people are really discussing past or future human births. When I consider the hardships that animals have to endure - lack of control over their lives and the environment they need to survive, having to endure cruelty, treated as products or lab specimens, having not much protection at law - I wonder why humans think they have the corner on suffering. I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the danger of their defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency about studying Dhamma and developing insight. Because of animals like my dog, I understand a little about Obstructive Kamma (?) now. He has had an unfortunate rebirth as an animal, but has 10 acres to roam on, two meals a day provided, appreciative words and hugs, occasional baths (when I can catch him) and brushings, car trips to visit relatives, a health care plan and regular check-ups, two day beds and a hammock for nights, and regular holidays at The Animal Motel whenever I go away. He's valiantly making the best of a bad situation. :) Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal rebirth unless we are far advanced on the Way? metta, Christine --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, and All > > Andrew, thanks for `coming out' and for your kind words about last > weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, and I very much enjoyed > meeting you and Ken H. > > To any who might be interested, Noosa (Queensland, Australia) is very well > worth a visit if you are in the region. Changed almost beyond recognition > from my last visit of 30 years ago (only surfies in `panel vans' in those > days) but by no means spoilt. A naturally beautiful and sheltered bay > with interesting countryside around. > > An extra buzz for Sarah and I was meeting up with long-lost old Bangkok > friends Azita (was Helen) Gill, Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, Sundhara (was > Ven. Sundharo) and also Gilly Peachy, none of whom we had seen for 25 > years or so; also telephone contact with Paul Barnett/Cittapalo (was Ven > Jotipanno). To you all if listening or lurking (perhaps vicariously?), > many thanks for making the effort to come and meet up again, Sarah and I > appreciated it very much. You all came long distances (especially Azita > who flew down from Cairns; Sundhara endured a 4-hour drive in his ancient > Kombi van), I hope you enjoyed the occasion as much as Sarah and I did. > > Chris, I haven't forgotten you either. Great seeing you again, and thanks > for your contribution to the discussion and companionship on the weekend. > And nice to get to know Sarah a little. > > Andrew and Ken H, if there is anything to follow-up on from our many chats > on the weekend, please feel free to raise them here. I'm sure other > members will have comments to add. For starters, I would like mention > something that came up -- the difference, if any, between being born as a > human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any thoughts or > information on this? Thanks. > > Jon 14590 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 7:16pm Subject: Re: back from the 'Spirit of Friendship Global Tour'....;-) Dear Sarah, Unfair! My occasional inability to decipher road signs correctly is acknowledged, (though I'm sure I was just agreeing with Jon), and I'm grateful to Azita for being 'extremely assertive' about what that picture of the Plane and the Arrow really meant on the sign. (Jon I don't think it meant 'this lane closed') And, Sarah, I'm sure you promised not to tell anyone about my being marooned behind mountains of ever multiplying bubbles in the spa with the switch that wouldn't shut off. I did have a contingency plan of shovelling most of it into the wash basin, shower and down the toilet if the worst came to the worst. Andrew - forget about the Akusala Off Switch - there are more probable and important switches to concentrate on! Thank you SarahF for your technological expertise in eventually jiggling the switch into working, though the twenty minute delay and the exasperated sighs were not really necessary..... :) And I 'may' have promised not to tell about certain Moderators who prepared a hot bath before going down for a quick freezing swim....then dashed upstairs to warm up, wearing only their swimmers, caps, and goggles, and found themselves locked out and dripping on the hall carpet when the door card wouldn't work.. Now when the Receptionist wanted you to bring the defective card to the main hotel Lobby and wait while they processed a new one..... did you use this chance to practice khanti and metta? Disappointingly, I don't think so! ...... you certainly said 'something' that made the staff member bring a new card in seconds ...... I don't think it began with 'May the blessings of the Triple Gem .....' And as for those stories about the Yoga teacher, you assured me he had said "if you get your legs tired the rest of the body and mind will sleep well".... I now think that was just a devious trick by KenH and you to keep me walking for 2 1/2 hours uphill in soft sand. :) Fortunately the Dhamma discussions, both 'sitting still' and 'on the move' were great, and the wonderful companions couldn't be improved upon. Now Sundhara......about those Austrian/Dutch backpackers you turned up with...... Oh well, Maybe we'll be a condition for them being attracted to Dhamma in their next life ....:) I'm ignoring all references to Sri Lanka, The Bag, and the Item - I prefer to think of the Item as a 'stowaway', not as 'borrowed'. It'll be four months or so before we all meet again Sarah - in Bangkok at the end of November if all goes to plan..... Does it ever? ....Hopefully we'll meet a few of those Dhamma friends we've missed up until now. :) metta, Chris --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine (and All), > > (I hope to get back to 'proper posts' and to hear other Noosa friends' > wise reflections after this little indulgence of post traumatic > touch-down;-)) > ***** > You kindly asked me to tell you --"when you've caught your breath" - - how > we nearly missed our flight....I think I'd better not wait for the > breath-catching as I'll have long since forgotten by then;-) > > It's true that you and Azita guided us with few hitches to the airport and > as you'd fortunately already announced on DSG that your sense of direction > and sign-reading was not to be trusted, Jon --well, he is a lawyer > --already knew to get second opinions -- otherwise this could have been > posted from an internet cafe in Cairns.... It's also true that even though > Quantas' check-in staff have obviously never heard about the Jonh Travolta > ` International superstar and Quantas Ambassador-at-Large ...Spirit of > Friendship global tour' and did their best to put a spanner in the works > in all the khanti and metta (patience and friendliness) accumulated -- and > so easily discussed on golden beaches with dhamma friends --, they > couldn't be entirely blamed, even if it was as a result of their computer > breakdowns that we were held up at immigration, helping to do their job > for them. > > Now the real chink in the `Spirit of Friendship' occurred at the GST > reclaim desk on `the other side'. When we'd been encouraged to purchase 3 > pairs of shoes in Bondi, we'd been assured that all we'd need to do would > be to wave our receipt and they'd be overjoyed at the GST airport desk to > hand over enough tax refund dollars to reimburse us for the airport > breakfasts. The GST reclaim goodwill ambassadors didn't quite see it like > that and needed more evidence of purchases and a revision course on their > books of rules. When they were told that one pair were in the post between > Melbourne and Hong Kong, one pair was at the bottom of my bag under all > the laundry (I was always taught to pack shoes first) and the third pair > were the now scratched and sandy clogs on my feet, any semblance of > remaining goodwill was lost. Still, a GST refund on two pairs out of > three (paying for half the breakfasts anyway) did end up back in my pocket > eventually. > > Meanwhile, I may have taken the khanti parami (patience perfection) > reminders a little too far, waiting for the painfully slow process to > unfold, because by the time I reached the boarding gate (Jon had wisely > gone ahead and left me to sort out the GST mess), I had to thank the next > Quantas ambassador for a little lecture on how he would have definitely > shut me out without compuction if Jon hadn't begged for mercy, (especially > as I had no checked in luggage) and how this would have led to a > non-refunded ticket at a cost of really a lot more breakfasts than I care > to think about. I tried suggesting to him that he might like to > coordinate with his `friends' at GST and Quantas Check-in, but he assured > me they were certainly not his friends, so there we have it -- a breakdown > in the Quantas' Spirit of Friendship. > > Anyway, we were appreciated when we got on the plane with a smile and `So, > you must be the Abbotts'. We listened for the third time to John T's > `Quantas is the best and safest' and came to appreciate his words when we > left Sunny Queensland's blue skies and sandy beaches and got close to > arrival in Hong Kong. We were told by the pilot that there were heavy > storms, it would certainly be bumpy, a few flights had missed the runway > and so we'd be circling around for `a bit' as they'd only just re- opened > the runways (read: one hour, which could have been spent developing more > khanti with my GST friends), before landing in zero visibility. As we > bumped around with appropriate noise effects from some passengers, I > reflected on the good dhamma reminders we'd been hearing over the last few > days and the messages from the three films I'd just watched (a record for > me) on the flight (with really lots of friendly smiles and great service): > > 1) High Crimes: How little we know about accumulations > 2) Time machine: You cannot change the Past > 3) Big Fat Liar: Truth is underestimated > ***** > Safely back and trying not to look too happy about having missed 10 days > of torrential downpours this end (and more full page advertisements from > Quantas with.. ..you guessed, John T)..... > > Hopefully more to follow with others' prompts on the many wonderful > discussions on concepts and realities and `only the present moment'.Tthe > 25years we haven't seen friends is gone and with it the stories, the tales > of loss and heartbreak, the changing fortunes, the different lifestyles > and `causes' and papanca (proliferations) we've taken as being so > important in ignorance during this time. > > I really have to thank you, Chris, and also Ken H and Andy for all the > keen questions and comments which prevented the rest of us from > over-indulging in stories too, too much from `When we were even whackier > than we are now'..... > > Sarah > > p.s Chris, I've just realized I've spent more time with you than any other > friend (other than Jon) this year to date....so, not surprising if the > influence is apparent here.... > > Btw, do you think you should ask if anyone is travelling from anywhere to > Kandy in Sri Lanka, so the little `borrowed' item which appeared out of > THE BAG at the airport --much like a rabbit out of a hat-- could get a > ride? As Azita and I agreed, we'll just leave you to add any details about > this happy finding or the Attack from the Bubbles (otherwise safe with Ken > H and ourselves), only and ONLY if it's useful for progress on the > Path;-)). > ================================================================ > > > 14591 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Christine, Nice to have you back on-line. It is our last thought moment that determines the plane of rebirth. If our last thought is with anger, we are reborn in hell. If our last thought is with lobha, then we are reborn as a hungry ghost. However, if our last thought is moha, then we are reborn as an animal. If we are last thought moment is rootless, then we are born as a handicapped human. With two roots, we are born as a human but cannot become enlightened. Since you have an obvious interest in the Dhamma and the Abhidhamma, I am sure that you have three roots (including wisdom) and therefore have the potential to be be enlightened. Devas and higher beings all have three roots. The Buddha said that it was easier for a blind tortise swimming in the ocean to surface and happen to put his head through the centre of a ring of wood than to be born as a human. In other words, in your cycles of samsara, it is very rare that you get a chance to be born as a human. We shouldn't blow this limited time opportunity by sitting around and watching "The Flintstones". Use this limited time to put the concepts in the Dhamma into action (Dana, Sila and Bhavana). I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record, but this is truly the core of what I believe. Again, nice to have you back on-line. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Jon and all, > > The scariest thing, and biggest difference for me, is that it seems > most animals don't have the ability to choose to perform kusala > deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, and therefore so > little chance to obtain a better rebirth. > I often wonder whether the possibility of rebirth as an animal is > something that people just pay lip-service to, but deep down don't > believe. Whenever rebirth is considered, many people are really > discussing past or future human births. When I consider the hardships > that animals have to endure - lack of control over their lives and > the environment they need to survive, having to endure cruelty, > treated as products or lab specimens, having not much protection at > law - I wonder why humans think they have the corner on suffering. > I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the danger of their > defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency about studying > Dhamma and developing insight. > Because of animals like my dog, I understand a little about > Obstructive Kamma (?) now. He has had an unfortunate rebirth as an > animal, but has 10 acres to roam on, two meals a day provided, > appreciative words and hugs, occasional baths (when I can catch him) > and brushings, car trips to visit relatives, a health care plan and > regular check-ups, two day beds and a hammock for nights, and regular > holidays at The Animal Motel whenever I go away. He's valiantly > making the best of a bad situation. :) > > Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal rebirth unless we > are far advanced on the Way? > > metta, > Christine > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, and All > > > > Andrew, thanks for `coming out' and for your kind words > about last > > weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, and I very much > enjoyed > > meeting you and Ken H. > > > > To any who might be interested, Noosa (Queensland, Australia) is > very well > > worth a visit if you are in the region. Changed almost beyond > recognition > > from my last visit of 30 years ago (only surfies in `panel > vans' in > those > > days) but by no means spoilt. A naturally beautiful and sheltered > bay > > with interesting countryside around. > > > > An extra buzz for Sarah and I was meeting up with long-lost old > Bangkok > > friends Azita (was Helen) Gill, Jill Jordan, Richard Giles, > Sundhara (was > > Ven. Sundharo) and also Gilly Peachy, none of whom we had seen for > 25 > > years or so; also telephone contact with Paul Barnett/Cittapalo > (was Ven > > Jotipanno). To you all if listening or lurking (perhaps > vicariously?), > > many thanks for making the effort to come and meet up again, Sarah > and I > > appreciated it very much. You all came long distances (especially > Azita > > who flew down from Cairns; Sundhara endured a 4-hour drive in his > ancient > > Kombi van), I hope you enjoyed the occasion as much as Sarah and I > did. > > > > Chris, I haven't forgotten you either. Great seeing you again, > and > thanks > > for your contribution to the discussion and companionship on the > weekend. > > And nice to get to know Sarah a little. > > > > Andrew and Ken H, if there is anything to follow-up on from our > many chats > > on the weekend, please feel free to raise them here. I'm sure > other > > members will have comments to add. For starters, I would like > mention > > something that came up -- the difference, if any, between being > born as a > > human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any > thoughts or > > information on this? Thanks. > > > > Jon 14592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Howard:When an object >> is >>> gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is gone >> - >>> that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental >> discernment, >>> instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some >> mental >>> object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful replica) >> of >>> the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the mental >>> consciousness is, what is it then? Howard: I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image is discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, but when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same image obtained by the process of visual discernment is processed in a further manner. Am I correct? Nina: It is visible object that is experienced by cittas in the eye-door process, >> and it is visible object experienced by cittas arising in the mind-door >> process that follows immediately upon the eye-door process. Not mental object. The same in >> the case of the other sense-cognitions. Only later on there are mind-door >> processes of cittas experiencing concepts. >> See Expositor I, from p. 95 on, Part 2, Analysis of Terms, Risings of >> Consciousness, especially 74: > apperceptional thought (javana) having any one of the objects arises >> through >> two doors in the manner described. Thus the apperception of a visible >> object >> arises at the eye-dooor and also at the mind-door...> >> Only when the first stage of insight arises doubts about this disappear. Howard: > ============================= > Thanks for the explanation. Okay, but could you please say a bit more > about how the mind-door/mentality experiences a visual image? >I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image is discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, but when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same image obtained by the process of visual discernment is processed in a further manner. Am I correct? Nina: Seeing cognizes only what appears through eyes, colour or visible object, not shape and form, not perspective, not an image. When your eyes are open it can appear, and when you close them no colour appears. When your eyes are open there are so many colours, but you may not pay attention to them. You see them all, but there is usually ignorance following the seeing. When you try to know visible object by focussing on a tissue paper there is thinking, even when you do not think in words. When there is thinking there is no seeing and how could you know then the characteristics of seeing or visible object? Seeing is not fixing on an image. The mind-door process that follows upon the eye-door process experiences exactly the same object, no difference. We should not over emphasize the role of sanna here, there is sanna with each citta, also with seeing, with receiving consciousness, etc. But since we cannot experience the mind-door, why worry about it? It is better to know first what can be experienced now: six doors, which are separate: hearing does not know the object of seeing, nor of smelling. When someone else is talking to you there is not always attention to the meaning of the words, just sound is heard. We are touching many things, such as hardness or heat, but we often do not pay attention to these rupas. Tangible object is experienced and then many moments of ignorance. When we have been listening to the Dhamma and we learnt about sati that arises because of the right conditions, there can be sati instead of ignorance. But when there is trying, trying to find out, focussing on specific objects, it is not sati. It is better to consider and investigate different objects through different doorways, and not even think of sati. It will arise when it is the righ time. But understanding is most important. Not concentration should be emphasized but understanding. We should see our own ignorance, the moments of ignorance, that is the beginning of panna. We should know when and where there is ignorance. When we are quite honest with ourselves, does it not seem that we are seeing and hearing at the same time? We are mixing the different doorways. Ignorance again. Best wishes from Nina. 14593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no. 7 Perfections, Ch 3, no. 7: We read further on about the virtue of the Bodhisatta: By desisting from idle chatter he becomes dear and agreeable to beings, revered, held in esteem. His statements are accepted and his talk measured. He acquires great influence and power, and becomes skilful in answering the questions of others with the ingenuity that creates opportunities (to benefit others). And when he reaches the plane of Buddhahood, he becomes capable of answering the numerous questions of beings, speaking numerous languages all with a single reply. Through his freedom from covetousness he gains what he wishes and obtains whatever excellent possessions he needs. He is honoured by powerful khattiyas 10. He can never be vanquished by his adversaries, is never defective in his faculties, and becomes the peerless individual. If one develops kusala without expecting any result for oneself, there will be a result in conformity with the kusala one performed. Someone may speak well, expressing himself with beautiful words, but when he speaks he should think of the wellbeing of the listener, he should know whether the listener will be ill at ease or happy. If there is sati sampajañña (sati and paññå) he will refrain from speech that causes the listener to be uncomfortable, even though he does not speak an untruth. If sati sampajañña arises it will cause one to speak in a beneficial, agreeable way. If someone does not expect any result for himself, his kusala will bring its result, as the Buddha explained. We read further on in the Commentary: Through his freedom from ill-will he gains a pleasant appearance. He is esteemed by others, and because he delights in the welfare of beings, he automatically inspires their confidence. He becomes lofty in character, abides in loving-kindness, and acquires great influence and power. Through his freedom from wrong view he gains good companions. Even if he is threatened with a sharp sword, he will not perform an evil deed. Because he holds to the ownership of kamma, he does not believe in superstitious omens. His faith in the true Dhamma is established and firmly rooted. He has faith in the enlightenment of the Tathagatas, and no more delights in the diversity of outside creeds than a royal swan delights in a dung heap. Footnotes: 9. The eight qualities of the Buddha¹s voice: it is frank, clear, melodious, pleasant, full, carrying, deep and resonant, and does not travel beyond his audience. 10. The khattiyas where those of the highest social rank. All kings and chieftains were katthiyas. 14594 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3 Dear Num, Thanks for the posts on PTSM series. I am absolutely thrilled about them. Will study along, although probably not at the same pace. Will post on this topics later. With appreciation, kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Num [mailto:Num] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:49 PM > Subject: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3 > > > Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 > > Dear Nina and all. > > Let me first say happy asalahapuja day, the day that the Buddha > gave out his first teaching, dhammacakkapavattana sutta. > > I am still figuring out how best to report the PTSM session. At > this point, I will put in the matika and then brief the > atthakatha and stress on the part that I think it’s crucial. I > just got my computer back, so this PTSM summary will be somewhat long. > > Book #1 is matika and its commentary. There are 73 different > levels of n~ana. This part is dealing with each n~ana’s > definition and its tipitaka references. A.Supee and A.Sujin > stressed that each (ariyan) person has different accumulation and > it’s not necessary that he/she attained all n~ana. Ven.Sariputta > explained this sutta in explicit detail to cover all possible > n~ana. For example there are 6 n~anas that can be attained only > by the Buddha. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------------------- > > Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. > > 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: > knowledge) > Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. > Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening > (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here refers to teaching of the Buddha. > Knowledge attained by listening to the teaching is sutamayan~ana. > It can also refer associated dhamma of listening for example > phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is > sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of > knowledge (n~ana). > < unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the > penetration of an arrow by a skillful archer. Illumination of the > object as its function, as it were a lamp. Non-confusion as its > manifestation, as it were a hunter gives guidance to one who is > getting in the forest. And samadhi as its proximate cause.>> > A.Sujin stressed on the importance of listening and the knowledge > at the listening level. > > 2) Silamayan~ana > Matika: Knowledge in listening to dhamma and then restrain is > silaman~ana. > Atthakatha: Knowledge attained through restrain. (silamayan~ana). > Sangvara (restraint) factors: pat.imokkha, sati, n~ana, khanti, > and viriya. There are many kinds and level of sila, but all > silas has restrain as there characteristic. Getting rid of one > who is unrestrained, or having no adverse effect as its function. > Cleanness as its manifestation, and having shame (hiri) and fear > of blame (ottappa) as its proximate cause. Knowledge which > accompanies (sampayutta) by sila is silamayan~ana. Reflecting on > adverse effects of unrestraint, reflecting on benefit of > restraint, reflecting on purity of restraint, and reflecting the > cleanness attained from restraint are parts of silamayan~ana. > > 3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na > Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is bhavanamayan~ana. > Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who > contains in restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single > point with the ability of upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, > knowledge in samadhicitta, or associated with samadhicitta. > > 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti > means sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, > sabhava: kusaladhamma, akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma > or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma called dhamma because it is being > arisen sustained by its conditions. Knowing by discernment of > each dhamma’s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( atthakatha then > says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. > The atthakatha then stresses on the importance of listening > to the Buddha teaching. It mentions “no being†(nissattata). > There is dhamma that exists very briefly, then changes and gone (vikara). > The atthakatha then raises the point why this nana is not > being called samatha-paccayapariyanana (knowledge in discernment > of conditions by one-pointed mind). The atthakatha says because > samatha and vipassana are paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It > can be said that when one sees clearly (vipassana), one’s mind is > one-pointed, or when one’s mind is one-pointed, he/she sees > clearly. The atthakatha then continues with “as long as magga > dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and > make samadhi and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep > on trying.†> > << A.Supee pointed out that samatha/samadhi in 8 > magga-factor refers to 3 magga factors: sammasati, sammavayama, > and sammasamadhi (samathisikkha). Vipassana in 8 magga-factor > refers to sammasankappa, and sammadithti (pannasikkha). I also > asked him a question why the tipitaka here put nana is stepwise > manner: suta-, sila, samadhibhavana, and the dhammathitinana, is > it a stepwise instruction? He said this manner of expounding is > an explicit manner. It means to cover every different > accumulation, or person. Every patisambhida person (refer only to > the ariyan person) has different accumulation. One may attain > both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without > attaining nana ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing > dhamma, not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all > in his teaching. >> > > Best wishes. > > Num > 14595 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:46am Subject: More photos Hello All, There are more picturesque post card pictures from down under posted in the photo section. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst And please always remember, among DSGers, there are no answers or questions left uncontested, there are no photos left unposted... Please consider this a warning. ;-) kom 14596 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:36am Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Rob M, and all, :) Glad to be back. This is very interesting. So one's last thought is of paramount importance ..... I wonder then, about the fairness of the whole process. Couldn't one then live a careless and disreptuable life but, either accidentally or purposefully, have a calm or beautiful last thought, and so have a fortunate rebirth? And does this also mean someone with a strong conscience who did a couple of minor misdemeanours but otherwise led an blameless, immaculate life could happen to think with regret about the misdemeanours and be born in unfortunate circumstances?..... I think I suffer from the "Do not think of elephants" syndrome - the minute you order your mind not to, it is filled with images of elephants. So I'm likely (if I know when I'm dying) to think 'I mustn't think with regret about things I've done wrong, I mustn't think with regret about things I've done wrong' - oops, too late ..... :) From the little I know about the complexity of conditions, would it be fair to say that the last thought - though a very important influence on the state of rebirth - may not be the only influence? And, getting back to the animals, mostly they die in fear, anger and pain - or at least, deep ignorance, - so their chances of a better rebirth are very slim indeed.... metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Nice to have you back on-line. > > It is our last thought moment that determines the plane of rebirth. > If our last thought is with anger, we are reborn in hell. If our > last thought is with lobha, then we are reborn as a hungry ghost. > However, if our last thought is moha, then we are reborn as an > animal. If we are last thought moment is rootless, then we are born > as a handicapped human. With two roots, we are born as a human but > cannot become enlightened. Since you have an obvious interest in the > Dhamma and the Abhidhamma, I am sure that you have three roots > (including wisdom) and therefore have the potential to be be > enlightened. Devas and higher beings all have three roots. > > The Buddha said that it was easier for a blind tortise swimming in > the ocean to surface and happen to put his head through the centre > of a ring of wood than to be born as a human. In other words, in > your cycles of samsara, it is very rare that you get a chance to be > born as a human. We shouldn't blow this limited time opportunity by > sitting around and watching "The Flintstones". > > Use this limited time to put the concepts in the Dhamma into action > (Dana, Sila and Bhavana). I'm sorry for sounding like a broken > record, but this is truly the core of what I believe. > > Again, nice to have you back on-line. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Jon and all, > > > > The scariest thing, and biggest difference for me, is that it > seems > > most animals don't have the ability to choose to perform kusala > > deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, and therefore so > > little chance to obtain a better rebirth. > > I often wonder whether the possibility of rebirth as an animal is > > something that people just pay lip-service to, but deep down don't > > believe. Whenever rebirth is considered, many people are really > > discussing past or future human births. When I consider the > hardships > > that animals have to endure - lack of control over their lives and > > the environment they need to survive, having to endure cruelty, > > treated as products or lab specimens, having not much protection > at > > law - I wonder why humans think they have the corner on > suffering. > > I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the danger of their > > defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency about studying > > Dhamma and developing insight. > > Because of animals like my dog, I understand a little about > > Obstructive Kamma (?) now. He has had an unfortunate rebirth as > an > > animal, but has 10 acres to roam on, two meals a day provided, > > appreciative words and hugs, occasional baths (when I can catch > him) > > and brushings, car trips to visit relatives, a health care plan > and > > regular check-ups, two day beds and a hammock for nights, and > regular > > holidays at The Animal Motel whenever I go away. He's valiantly > > making the best of a bad situation. :) > > > > Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal rebirth unless > we > > are far advanced on the Way? > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 14597 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:41am Subject: Re: More photos Hi Kom, Thank you for coming to the rescue and posting the photos. I do understand that photos never properly represent the beautiful, vibrant living beings we all are (only shows us as just piles of old rupa, really :). It may be of interest to members to know that the Richard and Jill in the Hotel photo are the authors of 'Abhidhamma Notes' on RobK's website, which I found very helpful. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html metta, Christine --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hello All, > > There are more picturesque post card pictures from down under posted in the > photo section. > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > And please always remember, among DSGers, there are no answers or questions > left uncontested, there are no photos left unposted... Please consider > this a warning. ;-) > > kom > > > 14598 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 5:44am Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Christine, A general answer to your questions below is that kamma is extrememly fair. One's last thought moment is critical in determining plane of rebirth. It's called the cuti citta (death citta). It is too big of a subject to be covered in a single posting. I haven't come to that subject in my class yet, so I don't have a point form summary of the subject. Here is a link to another book called "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" (this one by Ashin Janakabhivamsa). It is a lighter read than Nina's book, but doesn't go into as much depth as Nina's book on most subjects. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm I think that you would find Chapter 8 (Mind Processes Immediately Precceeding Death) and Chapter 9 (Patisandhi - The Nature of Rebirth) particularly relevant to this posting. Chapter 10 of Nina's ADL (The First Citta in Life) has more information as well. I would love to take a stab at aswering your questions below, but I suspect that reading these three chapters will answer some of your questions (and raise lots of other interesting ones as well). I would like to suggest that you read these three chapters and list some questions. It is a very big topic. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, and all, > > :) Glad to be back. This is very interesting. So one's last thought > is of paramount importance ..... I wonder then, about the fairness of > the whole process. Couldn't one then live a careless and > disreptuable life but, either accidentally or purposefully, have a > calm or beautiful last thought, and so have a fortunate rebirth? And > does this also mean someone with a strong conscience who did a couple > of minor misdemeanours but otherwise led an blameless, immaculate > life could happen to think with regret about the misdemeanours and be > born in unfortunate circumstances?..... > I think I suffer from the "Do not think of elephants" syndrome - the > minute you order your mind not to, it is filled with images of > elephants. So I'm likely (if I know when I'm dying) to think 'I > mustn't think with regret about things I've done wrong, I mustn't > think with regret about things I've done wrong' - oops, too > late ..... :) > From the little I know about the complexity of conditions, would it > be fair to say that the last thought - though a very important > influence on the state of rebirth - may not be the only influence? > > And, getting back to the animals, mostly they die in fear, anger and > pain - or at least, deep ignorance, - so their chances of a better > rebirth are very slim indeed.... > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > Nice to have you back on-line. > > > > It is our last thought moment that determines the plane of rebirth. > > If our last thought is with anger, we are reborn in hell. If our > > last thought is with lobha, then we are reborn as a hungry ghost. > > However, if our last thought is moha, then we are reborn as an > > animal. If we are last thought moment is rootless, then we are born > > as a handicapped human. With two roots, we are born as a human but > > cannot become enlightened. Since you have an obvious interest in > the > > Dhamma and the Abhidhamma, I am sure that you have three roots > > (including wisdom) and therefore have the potential to be be > > enlightened. Devas and higher beings all have three roots. > > > > The Buddha said that it was easier for a blind tortise swimming in > > the ocean to surface and happen to put his head through the centre > > of a ring of wood than to be born as a human. In other words, in > > your cycles of samsara, it is very rare that you get a chance to be > > born as a human. We shouldn't blow this limited time opportunity by > > sitting around and watching "The Flintstones". > > > > Use this limited time to put the concepts in the Dhamma into action > > (Dana, Sila and Bhavana). I'm sorry for sounding like a broken > > record, but this is truly the core of what I believe. > > > > Again, nice to have you back on-line. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14599 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 6:55am Subject: ADL ch. 18 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 18 (2) Dhamma-dhatu comprises both nama and rupa. Dhamma-dhatu is the cetasikas, the subtle rupas (sukhuma-rupas) and nibbana. Mano-vinnana-dhatu or mind-consciousness-element is nama. It comprises all cittas which are not the dvi-panca-vinnanas and not mano-dhatu. For example, santirana- citta (investigating-consciousness), mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) and the cittas performing the function of javana such as lobha-mula-citta are mano-vinnana-dhatu. Panca-vinnana-dhatu (seeing-consciousness-element, etc.), the mano-dhatu (mind-element) and the mano-vinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness-element) are: vinnana-dhatu (consciousness-element). Dhamma-dhatu is not identical with dhammarammana (mind-objects). Cittas are included in dhammarammana, but not in dhamma-dhatu, since dhamma-dhatu is: cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. When cittas are classified as elements they are the seven classes of vinnana-dhatu, namely: Panca-vinnana-dhatu (which are five classes), mano-dhatu (mind-element), mano-vinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness-element). Concepts and conventional terms (pannatti) which are included in dhammarammana are not dhamma-dhatu, because they are not paramattha dhammas. Only paramattha dhammas are classified as elements. Sometimes the Buddha spoke about six elements; or he classified realities as two elements. There are many different ways of classifying realities, but no matter in which way realities are classified, as khandha, by way of arammana (objects), or in any other way, we should remember the purpose of classifying realities : realizing that what we take for self are only nama-elements and rupa-elements. In the 'Satipatthana-sutta' (Discourse on the Applications of Mindfulness, Middle Length Sayings I, No.10) we read in the section about mindfulness of the body, that the Buddha spoke about the body in terms of elements. The text states: And again, monks, a monk reflects on this body according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: 'In this body there is the element of extension (solidity), the element of cohesion, the element of heat, the element of motion.' Monks, even as a skilled cattle-butcher, or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow, might sit displaying its carcass at a cross-roads, even so, monks, does a monk reflect on this body itself according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: 'In this body there is the element of extension, the element of cohesion, the element of heat, the element of motion'. Thus he fares along contemplating the body in the body internally...and he fares along independently of and not grasping anything in the world. It is thus too, monks, that a monk fares along contemplating the body in the body... The 'Visuddhimagga' (XI, 30) states: What is meant? Just as a butcher, while feeding the cow, bringing it to the shambles, keeping it tied up after bringing it there, slaughtering it, and seeing it slaughtered and dead, does not lose the perception 'cow' so long as he has not carved it up and divided it into parts; but when he has divided it up and is sitting there, he loses the perception 'cow' and the perception 'meat' occurs; he does not think 'I am selling cow' or 'They are carrying cow away', but rather he thinks 'I am selling meat' or 'They are carrying meat away'; so too this bhikkhu, while still a foolish ordinary person--both formerly as a layman and as one gone forth into homelessness--, does not lose the perception 'living being' or 'man' or 'person' so long as he does not, by resolution of the compact into elements, review this body, however placed, however disposed, as consisting of elements. But when he does review it as consisting of elements, he loses the perception 'living being' and his mind establishes itself upon elements....