14800 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail Hi Deanna (and Azita), I solved the problem of the procession of non-stop emails from choking up my inbox by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Click on "Edit my Groups" - change any lists (especially those with heavy email traffic) to "no mail" by selecting under "message delivery", click on "save changes" and then read at the website at your leisure by returning anytime to the link above and clicking on the Group Name in the left hand column. Like Frank, I don't always read all posts or all threads immediately. Azita - I just remembered we were also discussing this subject at Noosa.:) metta, Christine --- frank kuan wrote: > Deanna, you can set up your yahoo email account filter > (search for "dsg") and put it into a separate folder > for starters so it doesn't get mixed up with other > email. > > The desire to maintain orderliness and read every > single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. > Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's > easier to let it go. > > I realized a while back that there is no law that > demands that once I start reading a book or email that > I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and > frees up loads of time. > > -fk > 14801 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:04am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Dear Robert, Looking from that different perspective is a help. I like the quote very much, and the idea about the Jatakas. metta, Chris --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > > support the search for Meaning in life? > ------------------------------- > > Dear Christine, > Sometimes I think we are looking for something to get hold of but > perhaps we should be grateful for what we have let go of... > "Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth." > -- Ludwig Borne 1786–1837, German journalist, of Jewish origin > > I sometimes find Abhidhamma not what I need; at those times I like > to turn to the Jatakas in particular ( I think you have the > excellent translation by Cowell?) as they also apply so much to > daily life. > Robert > > > > > It seems to me to have the > > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > > worthwhile - > > > > metta, > > Christine 14802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:20am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Hi Frank, You are right about the frustration - as Howard is also right about anicca being (sometimes) a good and dependable friend. Regarding dukkha - I had slipped back into thinking of it only in its grosser forms (death, heartbreak, disasters) and perhaps it causes more problems in its subtle forms dissatisfaction, uneasiness, boredom, frustration etc. Hope you're correct about the big dilemmas becoming clearer after we solve the smaller ones... :) metta, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > Chris, From reading your original message, it > sounds like you're feeling frustration at not being > able to grasp a coherent "meaning of life" from > abidhamma, > 2) the desire to know "the meaning of life" can lead > to speculative views and much dukkha. Better to direct > attention at smaller and addressable dilemmas, knowing > that eventually the bigger dilemmas will become more > clear once we solve the smaller ones. > > -fk 14803 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 6:59am Subject: ADL ch. 19 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 19 (3) In the Abhidhamma we learn that there are eight types of maha-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. Why isn't there only one type? The reason is that each type has its own conditions through which it arises. If we know about these different types and if we can be aware of them when their characteristics present themselves, it will help us not to take them for self. Four types of maha-kusala cittas arise with somanassa (pleasant feeling) and four types arise with upekkha (indifferent feeling). We would like to have kusala cittas with somanassa, because we cling to somanassa. However, one cannot force somanassa to arise. Sometimes we perform dana with somanassa, sometimes with upekkha. It depends on conditions whether somanassa or whether upekkha arises with the maha-kusala citta. Four types are accompanied by wisdom: four types are not accompanied by wisdom. We may, for example, help others without panna or with panna. When we realize that helping is kusala, or when we are aware of the nama or rupa appearing at that moment, there is panna arising with the maha-kusala citta. Four types are asankharika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) and four types are sasankharika (prompted, by someone else or by self-inducement) The eight types of maha-kusala cittas are the following: . 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttum, asankharikam ekam) 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankhaikam ekam) Maha-kusala cittas are not the only kind of kamavacara sobhana cittas (beautiful cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness). Maha-kusala cittas are cittas which are cause; they can motivate kusala kamma through body, speech or mind which is capable of bringing results. There are also maha-vipakacittas, which are results of kusala kamma performed with maha-kusala cittas. Maha-vipakacittas are sobhana (beautiful) cittas as well, arising with sobhana cetasikas. People's deeds are not the same and thus the results cannot be the same. People are born with different patisandhi-cittas (rebirth-consciousness). Patisandhi-cittas are vipakacittas; they are the result of kamma. As we have seen before (Ch, 11), human beings can be born with a patisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipaka (and in this case they are handicapped from the first moment of life), or with a patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka kusala vipaka, accompanied by sobhana hetus. In the case of human beings, and of beings born in other sensuous planes of existence, the patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka vipakacitta is maha-vipakacitta, the result of kamavacara kusala kamma (kamma performed by kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness). Apart from maha-vipakacitta there are other types of sahetuka vipakacitta which are not the result of kamavacara kusala kamma but of jhanacitta. These types will be dealt with later on. As regards maha-vipakacittas, there are eight types. They can be accompanied by somanassa or by upekkha, they can be with panna or without panna, they can be asankharika (unprompted) or sasankharika (prompted). They are classified in the same way as the eight types of maha-kusala cittas mentioned above. The bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) and the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) are the same type of citta as the first citta in one's life, the patisandhi-citta. If the patisandhi-citta is maha-vipakacitta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta of that life are the same type of maha-vipakacitta. Thus the functions of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti can be performed by maha-vipakacitta. Moreover, the function of tadarammana (registering) can also be performed by maha-vipakacitta. When we see a beautiful sight or experience pleasant objects through the other sense-doors, the citta is vipakacitta, the result of kusala kamma; however, that kind of vipakacitta is ahetuka vipaka (arising without hetu), not maha-vipaka. The functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and receiving impressions through the body-sense, of sampaticchana and of santirana cannot be performed by maha-vipakacittas; these functions are performed by ahetuka vipakacittas. Tadarammana-citta (registering-consciousness), however, which is a vipakacitta arising after the javana-cittas, can either be ahetuka vipakacitta or maha-vipakacitta. 14804 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 8:28am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life --- Dear Christine, Here is another quote I like - "We're all in the same boat, and half the time we're up shit creek without a paddle" (unknown) Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Looking from that different perspective is a help. I like the quote > very much, > metta, > Chris > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > < > > "Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth." > > -- Ludwig Borne 1786–1837, German journalist, of Jewish origin > > 14805 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 8:28am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Christine, There is no obligation to discover the meaning of life. There is no need to `do worthwhile things.' There is only the present moment in which nama and rupa rise and fall away. Kind regards Ken H --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine 14806 From: Sukin Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail :-)Good one Frank!:-) Sukin > The desire to maintain orderliness and read every > single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. > Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's > easier to let it go. > > I realized a while back that there is no law that > demands that once I start reading a book or email that > I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and > frees up loads of time. > > -fk 14807 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:49pm Subject: the meaning of life Dear group, the meaning of life is explained below, and a short comment follows: Visuddhimagga XIV, 21 In the second tetrad [concerned with the question "How many kinds of understanding are there?"], the four kinds of knowledge classed as that concerned with meaning, etc., are called the 'four discriminations'. For this is said: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning. Knowledge about law is the discrimination of law. Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law is the discrimination of language. Knowledge about kinds of knowledge is discrimination of perspicuity' (Vbh. 293). Herein, *meaning* (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional consciousness, should be understood as *meaning*. When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling withn the category concerned with meaning is *discrimination of meaning*. *Law* (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law (dhamma)'. But in particular the five things, namely, (i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the Noble Path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as *law*. When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with law, is the *discrimination of law*. L: So, generally speaking, all conditional results and fruitions are the meaning of life. As such, life's meaning unfolds moment by moment. good night all, Larry 14808 From: jkl_california Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Hi Nina, Thanks so much for your writings. Your translations of Ajahn Sujin's "Perfections" are especially helpful. > II, Ch I, on Rupa: a long list with many attributes of rupa, and one of > them: That means, rupa is > cognized also through the mind-door. Thus we see that this is not only in > the Commentaries. Rupa cognizable through the mind door - might this apply to all sense phenomena we would experience in a dream, imaginatory, or hallucinatory state? With Metta, Jim 14809 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 1:40pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend --Dear Ken, Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom could explain more thoroughly. In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then sanna. Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. On the Dhammapada quote: -Once, there was a bhikkhu who was feeling remorse for having unwittingly cut some grass. He confided about this to another bhikkhu. The latter was reckless and stubborn by nature, and he did not think much about committing small misdeeds. So he replied to the first bhikkhu, "Cutting grass is a very minor offence; if you just confide and confess to another bhikkhu you are automatically exonerated. There is nothing to worry about." So saying, he proceeded to uproot some grass with both hands to show that he thought very little of such trivial offences. When the Buddha was told about this he reprimanded the reckless, stubborn bhikkhu. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 311. Just as kusa grass if badly held cuts that very hand, so also, the ill-led life of a bhikkhu drags that bhikkhu down to niraya. Verse 312. An act perfunctorily performed, or a practice that is depraved, or a questionable conduct of a bhikkhu is not of much benefit. BTW one of the meanings of kusala is derived from kusa: "Kusa grass cuts a part of the hand with both edges. Even so kusala cuts off both sections of passions - those that have arisen and those that have not arisen" (abhidhammathasangaha) Robert "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Robert K > > Thank you for this helpful message. You make > the point that a deep, subtle perception of > self is different from wrong view. Of course, > the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are > all conceptual (products of thinking), by the > time we worldlings can be aware of them. In > both cases, the realities that have been > arising and falling away will probably include > quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual > lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala > moments as well. > > As I understand what you are saying, the > involuntary idea of a controlling self does > not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been > ditthi (rising and falling away). What it > does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for > mentioning that -- another reality I need to > study.) > > On the other hand, if we are thinking that > realities need to be controlled, then that is > different. If we think the currently arising > realities (including wrong view), are > ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we > can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. > > To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of > the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from > memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like > swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." > > Does this imply a separate category of ditthi > which is specifically directed at the Buddha's > teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi > (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong > grasp of the Dhamma? > > Kind regards > Ken H > P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks > everyone for your metta. I have been home > since the weekend but am still way behind in > my dsg reading. `taking the time to > appreciate every post. > KH > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > KH> "We" can't get rid of wrong > > view - but by seeing ditthi, view (which in the case of believing > > that sati can be controlled is a very subtle and deep atta- sanna, > > self perception)it is let go of. > > It is like the man who has gone down to the river for 20 years and > > done his ritual washings and chats and yoga; they make him feel > good > > and of themself are not dangerous- but it is the silabataupadana > > (clinging to sila and ritual)the belief that this is purifying the > > mind that is wrong. > > Wrong view always comes with lobha (attachment)and hence with > > pleasant or neutral feeling- it can never feel bad! Right view too > > comes with only pleasant feeling or neutral feeling but it arises > > only with alobha (detachment). And rightview leading out of > samsara > > is intimately involoved with the understanding of anatta and > > powerlessness -- then there is detachment from the idea of 'me' > > practising; all the khandhas, every moment, are alien, and > > uncontrollable. > > Robert 14810 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Ken, There is also the Alagaddupama Sutta in the Majjhima nikaya (22)where it explains that learning the Dhamma wrongly is like catching a snake by the tail. One can study with the wrong motivations and actually increase mana and ditthi and tanha - and this applies to all of us. Again and again we should examine to see whether we are unknowingly trying to gain something for 'me'. This is a good sutta to discuss. Robert "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --Dear Ken, > 14811 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: forwarding to list Hi Andrew (& Anders,) > What an interesting point to explore. I think it is very relevant to > my previous posting on "animals" - am I trying to make the scriptures > verify my understanding of animals? You were referring to the extract from Anders’ post (see below) on 'verification of the scriptures'. We read in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta: ***** “..Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: “Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk”, and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: “Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk.” (p.255,M.Walshe transl.) ***** In other words, the understanding has to conform to the scriptures rather than vice versa. ..... >One question I have is this: if > I was right in citing a reference to the Buddha saying that there > were many truths (like leaves in the forest) he was not expounding, > does it follow that the scriptures are incomplete? If so, how does > this impact, if at all, on how we should see the scriptures? ..... I don’t think it follows that the scriptures are incomplete.Every detail of prctical relevance has been taught. There is far more detail than even the great arahats could directly realize and the point is that the Buddha’s knowledge is incomprehensible and without limit. I would suggest, on the contrary, that when we quote ‘the leaves in the forest’ with regard to topics we’d like to see included in the scriptures, it may be mere wishful thinking;-) For my part, I know the Pali Canon contains far, far more knowledge than I could ever get even a very small taste of. That’s why I mentioned to Anders that it is certainly not any false humility when I say I’m not at all ‘well-versed’ in this field. Ken H wrote in a pre-Noosa meeting post: “The Buddha taught that we worldlings are, “without regard for the ariyans, without regard for the ways of the ariyans.” (Mulapariyaya-Sutta). It would be better to understand this than to deny it. We ‘have regard’ for the ariyans when we follow them, not when we imitate them.” In other words, as he put so well in his post (14238), “imitation is not the way to go”. Again I’m reminded of sacca parami (truth perfection) and the importance of really checking our so called insights and wisdom carefully against the scriptures rather than the other way round. In this regard, I liked a recent quote of Nina’s from the Perfections 3,no5: “The commentary to the Basket of Conduct compares association with fools to the tasting of water that has a bitter, unpleasant flavour, and association with wise persons to the tasting of sweet water”. ***** It was very ‘sweet water’ in Noosa and I’ve heard you, Ken H, Chris and others will be tasting more of the same this weekend on your farm and using one of Nina’s articles as a starting point. We’ll be interested to hear how it goes and hope Ken manages the ‘questions without notice’;- ) I’m sure Chris will have all the colour back in her life after the ‘monchrome’ week. Best wishes, Sarah ==== > > > > (also Anders) > > The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it > know, I > > think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct understanding > of the > > scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is about getting to > the > > understanding that produced the scriptures. The scriptures should > not be > > verification for your own understanding. Rather, your understanding > should > > be verification of the scriptures. 14812 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Christine, I referred to this quote in the article on the bhikkuni which suggested to the writer that that the ‘disappearance of the nuns’ component disable the Theravadin tradition’: > > "In another text, in a discussion with Mara, the Buddha is reminded > of his > > commitment not to pass away until the four components of a Buddhist > > society, namely monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen, became eligible > for > > nibbaana by cultivating the necessary qualities.[12]" He is referring to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. when I skimmed through it, I couldn’t find the reference, but it conveniently just popped up in the extract from ADL I just read. Nina introduces it here: ***** “We all have in our daily life opportunities for dana and sila. As regards bhavana, this comprises samatha, vipassana, studying Dhamma or explaining it to others. Not only the monks, but also laypeople can study and teach Dhamma. We read in the 'MahaParinibbana-sutta' (Ch. III, l12, l13) that the Buddha told Ananda that Mara, the Evil One, had said to the Buddha after his enlightenment that it was now the time for him to pass away. The Buddha said: And when he had thus spoken, Ananda, I addressed Mara, the Evil One, and said:- -'I shall not pass away, O Evil One! until not only the monks and sisters of the Order, but also the laydisciples of either sex shall have become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory, masters of the lesser corolaries that follow from the larger doctrine, correct in life, walking according to the precepts-- until they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be able to tell others of it, preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it clear-- until they, when others start vain doctrine easy to be refuted by the truth, shall be able in refuting it to spread the wonderworking truth abroad! I shall not die until this pure religion of mine shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-- until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!' “ ***** There is no denying the gradual decline of the Sasana. However, when I read this quote from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta or the other one from Mahavaccagotta Sutta, I am reminded of how universal the Teachings are and how laydisciples can also ‘become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory.........’ and so on. I’m not sure that it has any bearing on the question of the restoration of the bhikkuni order. What do you think? __ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I have > little knowledge of this issue, and I still hope calm discussions and > explanations will be forthcoming at some point. This has not > happened elsewhere. At least, any discussion has never been with the > same thoroughness and kindness that other topics (where opinions > differ) have been explored (e.g. formal meditation, the value of the > Abhidhamma itself). It would be good to see all the information for > the basis of the current Theravada position laid out, and an > explanation of why the six recommendations in the article are/are not > sufficient to justify the restoring of the the Order of Nuns to the > Theravadin Tradition. ..... I have little knowledge on this issue either, but I don’t mind exploring it a little with you, looking at any texts in question. ..... >If anyone had the knowledge, and the > willingness to impart it, snail's pace - one point at a time - would > be perfect. ..... Maybe we can start looking together - ‘snail’s pace - one point at a time -’and perhaps others will join our ‘calm discussions’ if they have ‘the knowledge, and the willingness to impart it’.so that ‘the same thououghness and kindness’ given to other topics can be given to this one as I know you’d like. . This is the first point. Do you have any comments or would you like to introduce any comments/textual support you’ve heard for or against this first possibility ‘presented by G.P.M. Malalasekera’, before I add anything further? ***** “First, according to the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, the Buddha, when lying on his death bed, is said to have told his attendant Aananda that the Sa"ngha was permitted to abolish lesser and minor rules.[23] Malalasekara says "That, then, is the first possibility - a decision by a representative assembly of the Sa"ngha to dispense with the traditional ceremonial in the ordination of nuns."[24] Making use of the Buddha's final concession, it is within the power of the Bhikkhu Sa"ngha to make the necessary amendments to restore the Bhikkhunii Sa"ngha by performing an ordination without, the participation of nuns. If any monk believes that the rules pertaining to the ordination of nuns are of major concern and do not fall within the category of "lesser and minor rules," he would be invited to come forth and justify his position.” Sarah ===== 14813 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Dear Jim, --- jkl_california wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks so much for your writings. Your translations of Ajahn > Sujin's "Perfections" are especially helpful. ..... I’ll leave your question to Nina. It’s really good to see your keen interest. I believe you are new to DSG and if so thanks for this excellent first post and a warm welcome! To avoid confusion, (we have another regular, but often lurking Jim A and used to have another Jim) you might like to be Jim K or L;-) If you’re near San Fran, you might also be interested to liaise with Kom to join the discussion with A.Sujin when she visits very soon. If you’d care to add anything further by way of an intro, we’d all be glad to know a little more about you. Sarah ===== 14814 From: goglerr Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 8:30pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Robert, I was following your interesting message and something caught my eye. Regarding on the statement of vipallasa, that all types of perversions are eradicated by sotapatti maggaphala may not be that true. On my understanding that only ditthi vipallasa are eradicated at that stage. A sotapana can still have anger, sensual desire, ignorance but not wrong view about permanent or everlasting self. Only arahants can only eradicate sanna and citta vipalassa. G --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --Dear Ken, > Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom > could explain more thoroughly. > In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: > Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging > silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice > Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. > > All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga > > Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of > self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then > sanna. > Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( > this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is > conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers > of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. > > On the Dhammapada quote: > -Once, there was a bhikkhu who was feeling remorse for having > unwittingly cut some grass. He confided about this to another > bhikkhu. The latter was reckless and stubborn by nature, and he did > not think much about committing small misdeeds. So he replied to the > first bhikkhu, "Cutting grass is a very minor offence; if you just > confide and confess to another bhikkhu you are automatically > exonerated. There is nothing to worry about." So saying, he > proceeded to uproot some grass with both hands to show that he > thought very little of such trivial offences. When the Buddha was > told about this he reprimanded the reckless, stubborn bhikkhu. > > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > Verse 311. Just as kusa grass if badly held cuts that very hand, so > also, the ill-led life of a bhikkhu drags that bhikkhu down to > niraya. > > Verse 312. An act perfunctorily performed, or a practice that is > depraved, or a questionable conduct of a bhikkhu is not of much > benefit. > > > BTW one of the meanings of kusala is derived from kusa: > "Kusa grass cuts a part of the hand with both edges. Even so kusala > cuts off both sections of passions - those that have arisen and > those that have not arisen" (abhidhammathasangaha) > Robert > > > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Robert K > > > > Thank you for this helpful message. You make > > the point that a deep, subtle perception of > > self is different from wrong view. Of course, > > the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are > > all conceptual (products of thinking), by the > > time we worldlings can be aware of them. In > > both cases, the realities that have been > > arising and falling away will probably include > > quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual > > lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala > > moments as well. > > > > As I understand what you are saying, the > > involuntary idea of a controlling self does > > not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been > > ditthi (rising and falling away). What it > > does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for > > mentioning that -- another reality I need to > > study.) > > > > On the other hand, if we are thinking that > > realities need to be controlled, then that is > > different. If we think the currently arising > > realities (including wrong view), are > > ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we > > can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. > > > > To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of > > the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from > > memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like > > swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." > > > > Does this imply a separate category of ditthi > > which is specifically directed at the Buddha's > > teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi > > (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong > > grasp of the Dhamma? > > > > Kind regards > > Ken H > > P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks > > everyone for your metta. I have been home > > since the weekend but am still way behind in > > my dsg reading. `taking the time to > > appreciate every post. > > KH > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > > KH> "We" can't get rid of wrong > > > view - but by seeing ditthi, view (which in the case of > believing > > > that sati can be controlled is a very subtle and deep atta- > sanna, > > > self perception)it is let go of. > > > It is like the man who has gone down to the river for 20 years > and > > > done his ritual washings and chats and yoga; they make him feel > > good > > > and of themself are not dangerous- but it is the silabataupadana > > > (clinging to sila and ritual)the belief that this is purifying > the > > > mind that is wrong. > > > Wrong view always comes with lobha (attachment)and hence with > > > pleasant or neutral feeling- it can never feel bad! Right view > too > > > comes with only pleasant feeling or neutral feeling but it > arises > > > only with alobha (detachment). And rightview leading out of > > samsara > > > is intimately involoved with the understanding of anatta and > > > powerlessness -- then there is detachment from the idea of 'me' > > > practising; all the khandhas, every moment, are alien, and > > > uncontrollable. > > > Robert 14815 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 9:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ideas about birth and death Herman --- egberdina wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Just to supplement your comment that "my thoughts of birth and death are > based on the socially constructed and socially transmitted belief systems > of the groups I find myself in from time to time, not on experience", > there are of course one's observations of birth and death of others to add > into the mix, and I guess these count as 'experience' of some kind. [Herman:] <> [Jon:] It might be more correct to say there is no recollection (rather than no experience) of birth or death, since according to the teachings there is never a moment when consciousness does not arise. But your point remains, that our beliefs regarding these events are not based on any conscious (i.e., recollectable) experience in this lifetime. As I have suggested, though, this does not mean that our beliefs are entirely the product of conventional conditioning in this life. According to the teachings, everyone brings into this existence deeply-held beliefs in the form of latent accumulations from experiences/beliefs held in previous existences (and which may for all we know reflect some moments of actual experience or recollection). This no doubt explains to some extent at least the vastly different reactions to similar experiences as you mention in your message. > By the way, I am not so sure that direct experience is necessarily > entirely lacking in the ideas we may hold. I believe the texts indicate > that beings born in some of the heavenly realms are able to recollect > their previous life as a human being. Likewise, in previous lives one may > have attained the jhanas together with powers of recollection of former > lives. [Herman:] <> [Jon:] You ask if sanna is carried over endlessly. To my understanding, this indeed is what the texts indicate. However, the endlessly accumulated sanna does not have any real bearing on our powers of memory or recollection since these are conventional terms for what is in fact a series of mental processes rather than a particular dhamma. The function of sanna is simply to mark each and every object of citta, and without this there could be no later recognition or recall. The activities we refer to as subsequent recognition and recall based on that marking are not performed by sanna alone, as I understand it, but by multiple processes of thinking involving a number of mental factors of which sanna is only one. Thus, we all have 'perfect' sanna, but we have varying degrees of power of recall. [Herman:] <> [Jon:] The thought of a substantial I is still a thought; it is not the experience of anything. There is no limit to what thinking can come up with. The fact that we accept at an intellectual level that dhammas are not-self does not mean that thoughts such as this will suddenly disappear or even lessen, since the akusala that conditions those thoughts is not attenuated in the slightest by understanding at an intellectual level. If we are lucky, however, it will mean that wrong view is not further heaped up to quite the same degree that it would otherwise have been ;-)). Jon 14816 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 9:41pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Gogler, Thanks for following along. The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna has eradicated all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, and citta) as I said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) vipallasa at all these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of Ditthi. However he hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and taking the foul for the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. Hence he still has desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see patisambhidhimagga viii (2)) Robert --- "goglerr" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I was following your interesting message and something caught my eye. > Regarding on the statement of vipallasa, that all types of > perversions are eradicated by sotapatti maggaphala may not be that > true. On my understanding that only ditthi vipallasa are eradicated > at that stage. A sotapana can still have anger, sensual desire, > ignorance but not wrong view about permanent or everlasting self. > Only arahants can only eradicate sanna and citta vipalassa. > > G > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --Dear Ken, > > Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom > > could explain more thoroughly. > > In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: > > Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging > > silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice > > Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. > > > > All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga > > > > Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of > > self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then > > sanna. > > Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. > > > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered > > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( > > this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the > > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > > And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is > > conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers > > of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. > > > > On the Dhammapada quote: > > -Once, there was a bhikkhu who was feeling remorse for having > > unwittingly cut some grass. He confided about this to another > > bhikkhu. The latter was reckless and stubborn by nature, and he did > > not think much about committing small misdeeds. So he replied to > the > > first bhikkhu, "Cutting grass is a very minor offence; if you just > > confide and confess to another bhikkhu you are automatically > > exonerated. There is nothing to worry about." So saying, he > > proceeded to uproot some grass with both hands to show that he > > thought very little of such trivial offences. When the Buddha was > > told about this he reprimanded the reckless, stubborn bhikkhu. > > > > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > > > Verse 311. Just as kusa grass if badly held cuts that very hand, so > > also, the ill-led life of a bhikkhu drags that bhikkhu down to > > niraya. > > > > Verse 312. An act perfunctorily performed, or a practice that is > > depraved, or a questionable conduct of a bhikkhu is not of much > > benefit. > > > > > > BTW one of the meanings of kusala is derived from kusa: > > "Kusa grass cuts a part of the hand with both edges. Even so > kusala > > cuts off both sections of passions - those that have arisen and > > those that have not arisen" (abhidhammathasangaha) > > Robert > > > > > > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Dear Robert K > > > > > > Thank you for this helpful message. You make > > > the point that a deep, subtle perception of > > > self is different from wrong view. Of course, > > > the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are > > > all conceptual (products of thinking), by the > > > time we worldlings can be aware of them. In > > > both cases, the realities that have been > > > arising and falling away will probably include > > > quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual > > > lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala > > > moments as well. > > > > > > As I understand what you are saying, the > > > involuntary idea of a controlling self does > > > not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been > > > ditthi (rising and falling away). What it > > > does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for > > > mentioning that -- another reality I need to > > > study.) > > > > > > On the other hand, if we are thinking that > > > realities need to be controlled, then that is > > > different. If we think the currently arising > > > realities (including wrong view), are > > > ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we > > > can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. > > > > > > To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of > > > the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from > > > memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like > > > swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." > > > > > > Does this imply a separate category of ditthi > > > which is specifically directed at the Buddha's > > > teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi > > > (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong > > > grasp of the Dhamma? > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken H > > > P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks > > > everyone for your metta. I have been home > > > since the weekend but am still way behind in > > > my dsg reading. `taking the time to > > > appreciate every post. > > > KH > > > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 14817 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 10:00pm Subject: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear Larry, Sarah, and others, Thanks for replying to my questions. I didn't look for additional materials (except Larry's and Sarah's answer) for my questions, but I will attempt to answer my own questions according to my understandings. Any comments are welcome, of course. > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > > Hi Kom, here's my answers to your two sets of questions: > > 1) What is a meditation practice? > Larry: Relaxed attention to a single subject; may > or may not be > contemplative. The development of wisdom (vipassana development) is the accumulation of wisdom knowing realities as they are, as nama and rupa, as conditioned realities, as impermanence, as dukkha, and as anatta. It is not book knowledge: it is the non-forgetfullness and the wisdom of the realities that are rising at the current moment (since it is the only time where the characteristics as nama and rupa, as conditioned realities, etc., can be known). > For example, is it being at a specific place at a > specific time? > L: yes, what place is not specific? The time is now, and there is no other place. When a reality appears as it truly is, there is no place, until we think about it. There is no time either, except the rising and falling away of the realities, and then thinking about realities and time. > Is there a rule that we must follow in order for > it to be a meditation > practice? > L: yes, one pointed (ekaggata) There is one rule: know the realities that are arising as they truly are. While there is such knowledge, samma-dithi (wisdom), samma-sanghapa, samma-vayama, samma-sati, and samma-samathi (ekaggata) are con-ascent in the mundane states, and also with samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, and samma-achiva in the supramundane state. > What are the specific results/progress of a practice? > L: results = enlightenment, progress = peaceful, > calm, fewer worries, > fewer desires, realization of anatta by degrees > from shallow to deep to > complete The result (of the right practice) is the gradual accumulation of wisdom (of realities being just nama-rupa, being conditioned, etc), which results in less attachment (and wrong views) of the self, less attachment to the 5 kandhas, which will eventually result in the supra-mundane knowledge. > > Do we have to be at peace to practice? > L: yes, although agitation may be an object of meditation While sati arises, there is samatha (peace from akusala) that is conascent with the sati and wisdom. We hear many stories about when people became enlightened during the Buddha's time, and by far the majority (mentioned) was while listening to the dhamma. There were stories of those who are committing suicide, who were being seduced by women, who were doing their things in daily life. Were they at peace? While sati arises, they were... > > Do we have to follow rituals that we don't > normally follow in order to > be called practice? > L: yes, if our normal life is careless For attainment to occur, the 10 perfections must be fulfilled, and that means we need to develop kusala at all levels whenever possible. But the straight and only path is still the 8-fold path, which means satipatthana... There were people who attained in the Buddha's time even when their lives were seemingly careless too. I just read the story of Anathapindika's daughter-in-law who was heedless, mean, not helpful, unrespectful to their in-laws, who became sotapanna while first listening to the Buddha. I understand that the 10 perfections must have been fulfilled, and the path must have been walked for that to happen. > > If we are now mindful of the realities that are > occuring now, is that a > practice? > L: yes, if we are robbing a bank with > mindfulness, there is still a tiny > bit of practice involved The 8-fold path is satipatthana at the lokuttara level. While there is mindfulness and knowledge about the realities that are before us, we are walking the path (at the mundane level). > 2) Is what we learn about realities from the > Buddha the same as what we > "observe" in the practice? Or do we learn one > thing, and during the > practice, we observe another? > L: We learn a mountain of concepts and observe a > few realities The buddha explained the dhamma in details so that we don't become misguided by our own ignorance. The dhamma each individual panna can penetrate, each has the characteristics as described by the Buddha, for he was the one who thoroughly penetrated the characterstics of all realities and describe them as he had seen them. > 3) What do we learn when we "practice"? Is it > the same or different > from what we learn in hearing and considering? > L: I don't think we 'learn' calmness from > answering email questions We learn more about all the realities as they are gradually. There can be calm in answering email, if our mental states are kusala (and therefore have calmness!). > > 4) What's the difference between "sati" and > "wanting to observe what's > going on?" L: Sati isn't particularly curious Sati is non-forgetfullness. Sati in satipatthana is non-forgetfulness of realities. Attachment sticks to the object of attention. Both sati and attachment each can rise with either indifferent or pleasant feeling. > 5) Is wanting more sati a condition for the > rising of more sati? > L: yes, desire condition We have heard the buddha's teachings (and the simile) about the development of the 8-fold path. If one walks the right path, regardless of whether one wants to attain or not, eventually one will attain. But if one walks the wrong path, regardless of how much we want to attain, it is impossible. Desire is not a necessary condition for attainment, but I believe panna at all levels are. > Is the intention to observe realities a condition > for the rising of > sati? > L: yes, intention condition Intention (cetana) arises with all realities, including Sati, but intention is not a factor in the 8-fold path. > 1) Doing things slowly like walking slowly, > eating slowly? Neither the path nor support of the path. > 2) Oberserving silence, not speaking to each > other, regardless of what > the topics of discussions? The Buddha discourages non-useful speeches, but praises useful speeches. Non-useful speeches are neither the path nor support of the path. Useful speeches is definitely a support of the path. It is impossible for a non-buddha to attain without listening to a samma-sambuddha. > 3) Observing the sila, like the 5, the 8, or the 227? There were people who had major infractions of the 5 silas up to very close to the point of attainment. Following the rules of sila are not the path, but can be a support of the path, if co-arising with panna. The supra-mundane path has the 3 virati cetasikas as the sila components. > 4) Being mindful of realities that are appearing? This is the (first mundane, and eventually supramundane) path. > 5) Wanting to be more mindful? This is neither the path, nor a suport of the path. > 6) Hearing the dhamma? Satipatthana is the mundane path, and hearing the dhamma is its conditions. Hearing the dhamma is not (???) the path, but is a pre-requisite for entering the path. > 7) Considering the dhamma? Same as 6). > 8) Mental peacefulness? Being free from the > thoughts that cause us > discomfort? There were monks who attained when they were committing suicide! > 9) Eating only twice a day? This is not the path, but can be a support of the path, if done with panna. > 10) Discussing the dhamma? Similar to 6 and 7, at least for the veneyya (those who can attain in this life, but after a long period of wisdom development) and pattaparamat (those who cannot attain in this life, even though they may develop panna, a condition for futuer attainment). > Larry: all the above are factors contributing to > the path and teachings > of the Buddha. > > what are your answers? > Thanks again for your answers, Larry. kom 14818 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 0:33am Subject: vipallasa for stream entry Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend are you sure you got this right Robert? do you have a link to an online version we can verify? it sounds highly improbable that one could understand the marks of impermanence and anatta to such a degree, with no perversions at the level consciousness, perception, or views, yet still have misperception of dukkha. If that's what the commentaries or suttas say, then I would have to disagree with those sources as well :) -fk --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Gogler, > Thanks for following along. > The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna > has eradicated > all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, > and citta) as I > said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) > vipallasa at all > these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha > for dukkha and > taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of > Ditthi. However he > hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and > taking the foul for > the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. > Hence he still has > desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see > patisambhidhimagga > viii (2)) > > Robert 14819 From: Anders Honore Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 0:44am Subject: Forwarding to list Hi Sarah. Snipped as ruthlessly as I felt I could. > Ok, I wouldn't put myself in the "well-versed in the Pali Canon" category > by any means (and this isn't any false humility;-))...... we agree on the > great benefit of the study. Ah well, perhaps different understandings of the words. I think I have a basic knowledge of what the scriptural canon covers. But as for details.... That's for experts :-) .... > > I think we can easily agree that the understanding > > of the Dhamma is > > antecedent to the spoken Dhamma. > > Not so easily at all. If we don't hear the spoken Dhamma (or read the > written Dhamma) and carefully consider, there won't be any understanding. > Only Buddhas and Pacceka Buddhas don't need to hear the Dhamma in the > lifetime before they develop wisdom and become enlightened. Allow me to clarify: Understanding of the Dhamma is that which produced the written Dhamma. In this way, understanding of the Dhamma is antecedent to the the written Dhamma. Thus, from this, one can learn that one must attain to an understanding antecedent to the written Dhamma, that is, not reliant on the written Dhamma, but nor in contradiction to it. > If the intellectual understanding or the "spoken Dhamma" is taken as > direct understanding it's wrong. Agreed. Also agreed is that lobha will > grasp onto anything, including the Spoken Dhamma, the knowledge of theory > or anything else. Moreover, it should be recognised as being intrinsically deluded. Although it may be skilful in leading to true insight, it is, in itself, still a product of the deluded mind and thus should not be clung to. ... > > Study of the practise of Dhamma is usually quite > > straightforward. It tells > > you what to do, in order to attain proper > > understanding of the Dhamma. The > > trap for some is that they bring up practises which > > they do not yet have > > capacity to carry out, because of lack of > > understanding or otherwise. > > "It tells you what to do"....hmmm.....I disagree that 'proper > understanding of the Dhamma' can be formulated into a 'what to do' recipe. > I'll wait for further explanation of your meaning here. I thought I might have been too brief here. Understanding and practise of the Dhamma cannot really be separated, because they are deeply intertwined. One's understanding of the Dhamma conditions one's quality and level of practise, and likewise, the practise conditions one's development of insight. So no, they can't really be separated that easily. > If it is seen as merely an interesting > theoretical construct, separate from 'practice', it's quite useless. I will add, that there is also the danger of projecting these 'constructs' unto reality. One must arrive at this understanding, not produce it, if you know what I mean. But otherwise, agreed. > Anwyay, we agree that any idea that the written or spoken word or mastery > of these as being any direct understanding is wrong and can be highly > misleading. I don't agree that we are seeking 'the understanding (i.e. > the Buddha's understanding) that produced these words", but do agree that > it is only the direct understanding that ultimately is of any value. What do you say then, is the nature of direct understanding? If not the Buddha's understanding, then what? The scriptures' understanding? What understanding to they have? They are just expressions of understanding. Not understanding itself. > (Btw, you don't mention what understanding or panna understands...) Even in the many stages of awakening, the realm of apperances exerts its influence, and thus, what Panna understands, can be said in many ways. Although I do not claim any ultimate understanding, it is my experience so far, that intrinsically, Panna understands the Four Noble Truths, ie cause and effect just as it is, but without conscious awareness of it being so, although it is recognised as such upon reflection. When truly realised, this could be said to be the total realisation of emptiness, ie, that realisation, that nothing truly exists, in and of itself, and through this, one does not grasp at the existence or non-existence of dhammas. Again, I do not claim knowledge of the understanding at the end of the path, and so cannot say what Panna sees, from an ultimate perspective. > One more point I don't agree (possible misunderstanding) with is your > comment about understanding being 'employed freely according to > circumstances'.....hmmm, possible self creeping in. A statement to be understood as having an understanding not fixated (ie, not rooted in static, thus conceptual understanding), and thus responds to the causal circumstances at hand directly, without static, conceptual reflection, dwelling upon the situation, to attain discernment of the situation at hand. As for grasping at the view of spontaneity, I do not perceive dhammas to be so, as that would imply that they exist as independent entities. .... > Anders, in this sutta (Dutthatthaka Sutta), as in the suttas you quoted > from before in Sutta Nipata, let's be quite clear that the Buddha is > referring to wrong views and unwholesome mental states. 'One whose >doctinres aren't clean'. In my Saddhatissa translation, I'm reading "He > whose views are mentally. constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed > but not pure..".The next but one sutta, the Paramatthaka sutta, > specifically refers in the translation I have to 'dogmatic view' and how > the 'brahmin is not led by rule and rite'. These are wrong views or wrong > understandings (i.e. the opposite of samma ditthi, the first factor of the > noble 8fold Path) that are referred to. Twisting it a bit: Are you perhaps perciving this sutta to conform with your own understanding of the Dhamma, to make the scriptures be in line with your understanding? I am no Pali expert, so I cannot say which is right. The translation, as Thanisarro Bikkhu, sounds true to me, thus I did not question it. If you wish to pursue the matter of authenticity of understanding this scripture, then perhaps comparing it to Bikkhu Bodhi's translation might illuminate the subject. But I would think that there is more merit to examining how the mind reacts and analyses the scripture, in connection with one's preconceived views and position. > Now we really start to come to our 'difference' of understanding. As I > read you here and in previous posts, you take all views and understandings > of an intellectual nature to be wrong and needing to be relinquished. No, not wrong. Right views are skilful, in that they lead to development of effacement of habitual tendencies, craving, and attachment. However, they are in themselves, habitual tendencies, and being formed, karma generating dhammas, even though they are karma-generating dhammas that lead to the effacement of other karma-generating dhammas, and thus, will eventually have to be relinquished too. .... > Actually, I recall discussing them in detail in January (?) with you and > believe you bowed out of this discussion. (Just found my last post to you > here, I think) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7060.html lol. I don't remember this to be honest. > Now you probably decided that when I started quoting from the abhidhamma, > that I was merely 'grasping at doctines';-) It is not unlikely. It is easy to to grasp at the perception of others being caught in impurity, especially if one grasps at purity in connection with oneself. As I said, I do not remember the concrete situation, so I cannot speak about the concrete motives at the time. What I wrote above, however, is an indicator of a general tendency at the time on my part. .... > hmm....Perhaps we can just > agree -- and I thank you for pointing this out with these helpful quotes > -- that we kid ourselves often and even when we are quoting the Buddha, > the impure motives and the 'personal advantage', the 'grasping' and > 'rejecting' based on 'views' are often apparent and often unrecognised. Yes, I will now speak of the principle of stopping and seeing in relation to this, which, though not explicitly mentioned in the Pali Canon, is hinted at in the teaching of samatha and Vipassana. For those of very sharp discernment (this too, is a common conceit, that one is has sharp faculties), one can immediately cut to the heart of the matter, and recognise the grasping and rejecting, based on views (even those of the Dhamma) which has previously gone unreognised (the principle of seeing). However, for those, in which the habitual tendencies of the mind carry a strong influence, unraveling this flow, can be extremely difficult. Thus, it can be of help to be in a place where one is not prone to grasp at the Dhamma, and accept and reject certain views, based on one's entrenchment in views already. This can be accomplished, by not indulding in the habits of form, with which, these habits of mind, are often associated. For instance, debating the nature of Dhamma can be seen as a major impedement to the development of the mind, if one is prone to grasping at the Dhamma, and twisting it to suits one's own perception and understanding, in connection with one's own views. Likewise, with scriptural study. Thus, I do not say that scriptural study is absolutely skilful, nor is debating the Dhamma. But these tendencies can be hard to recognise, especially, if one craves for not having them. Moving on... When not indulging in these habits of form, these unskilful tendencies of the mind, do not proliferate, and thus, there is stopping. From this place, one can reverse the light, and recognise that whicg, from moment to moment, has previously gone unrecognised, and through seeing and comprehending them as they are, the habitual tendencies are weakened. The same principle works with Samatha, where one delves into deep meditation, where unskilful qualitties and tendencies are not proliferating in the mind. But nonetheless, the seeds for these tendencies are still present in the mind, and if one does not apply one's attention to these, then one is merely practising Brahmanic meditation, and not the transcendent one the Buddha taught. > We both understand all views are fabricated or conditioned. Can we both > agree that all realities (except nibbana) are indeed fabricated > (sankhara)? Even moments of insight and jhana are fabricated. The 5 > khandhas are indeed sankhara. Intrinsically yes. However, the direct understanding (Panna) that enables the mind to see things as they are, lies latent in the mind, obscured by ignorance. Thus, it is through unraveling that which has already come into being (views, concepts, all products of ages of accumulated delusion), that one arrives at direct seeing. > We both agree that ingorance is the cause of the cycle of samsara and > remains a latent tendency until arahatship is attained, I think. You > mention 'pure Dhamma'. Does this refer to moments of insight, to > realization of nibbana or to nibbana itself? If I were to pursue this question, I think it would lead to a debate on Nibbana, in relation to wisdom, which I think would do nothing, except to reveal a greater chasm in our understanding. I do not perceive this to be skilful at the moment, so I will let this be. I apologise for mentioning something that was not furthering understanding at the moment. > I accept your point that any theoretical view is only theoretical, is not > firm, can be influenced and 'can be shaken' and thus does not offer any > 'security'. However, in this passage I read the emphasis to be on wrong > views, 'views in which he sees personal advantage'. these are compared > with the views of those without 'delusion and conceit'. So, I think your > emphasis is a little off-track in interpretation here, useful though it > may be. (maybe Rob K or Suan will fish out the Pali to help us). Are you saying that one with Right View, though not endowed with Panna, has an understanding that can not be shaken, that canot not, through skilful talk (skilful for whatever end, pure or impure, the speaker may be aiming at), be changed to wrong views? That once one embarks on the path of the Buddhadhamma, and begins to learn of Right Views, then the path is irreversible? > Can we say the entrenchment refers to attachment and wrong view? "He > rejects one and grasps another?" As you point out, these states can arise > regardless of the subject matter. We can say it refers to attachment. > The only non fabricated, non formed, unconditioned state is nibbana. All > conditioned realities should be understood as they are. We need to hear > and consider a lot about what these conditioned realities are. See what I wrote about understanding obscured by ignorance above. When I say unformed, I say that delusion, views and ignorance can be untagled in this life, and thus they come into being and ceae in this life, whereas the mind, even with the cessation of ignorance, does not cease until the death of the physical body, due to its dependence on it. > Ok, let me be direct here, Anders. You seem to be 'fixated' on this > comprehension of views (leaving aside the difference in understanding as > to kinds of views). By views, you are referring to certain namas, moments > of thinking accompanied by attachment or wrong view, I understand. The > objects of the thinking are merely concepts and therefore don't *exist* > and cannot be known. However, there are many, many other namas and rupas > (mental and physical phenomena) which the Buddha discusses in detail in > the suttas as well as the abhidhamma. He also makes it very apparent that > without understanding these various namas and rupas when they are > apparent, there cannot be any higher levels of wisdom. Are these namas and rupas properly comprehended through views, or through direct seeing? > Yet, you seem to have no interest in clearly differentiating them or > clearly differentiating conventional and absolute realities. Which conventional and absolute realities do you say I do not distinguish? When dealing with conventional realities, I speak of views, because this is what they are rooted in, even if they are views of transcendence. In regard to absolute understanding, though it knows itself to be transcendent, it does not reflect on itself as being such, and thus goes beyond labels and forms, which are the characteristics of conventional understanding. Te minute I speak of it, it becomes conventional. > I suggest > there is a big danger in throwing out the baby with the bath water here by > pointing out repeatedly the trap of clinging to theoretical understanding > when we know that hearing and considering the details of all paramattha > dhammas in depth is so essential for direct understanding to develop and > for wrong views to be eradicated. Do we? Consider the story of the recluse Bahiya; he was given the briefest of teaching on the Dhamma: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through this, he attained Arahantship. It is repeatedly said, that an Arahant knows the Dhamma through release from ignorance, and the knowledge of the Dhamma is just knowledge of dependent co-origination. However, Bahiaya was never taught about dependent co-origination before he died. Can you tell me then, how he came to that knowledge, without hearing of it, being neither Pacceka Buddha nor Samyaksambuddha, but an Arahant? > In between the views now, there are > moments of seeing, hearing, feelings and so on. Is there any understanding > of them? > > What is the reluctance here? There is understanding of them, to a certain degree, though not entirely, as delusion is still active in mind. I adress the nature of views here, because they are what obstructs the direct comprehension of these dhammas. > "Your understanding should be verification of the scriptures" sounds > somewhat arrogant and misguided as though one is saying that the words of > the Buddha are correct if they conform with what is directly known and > experienced only. No, the other way around. Your understanding can be said to be correct, if what is directly known and experienced, corresponds with the Buddha's Dhamma. > On this basis, most of the world's population would > therefore rightly conclude that what the Buddha taught was nonsense and > would not be inclined to consider further. This seems to be a popular interpretation of the Kalama Sutta these days..... 14820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Dear Rob Ep, Thank you very much for the intro section. The Co has more about this and I find it very interesting, I am already reading the Co. now. I have to wait reacting to your and Larry's remarks and questions for a while. Tomorrow we take my father and dog out for several hours, and also, I have to get on with my translation of the Perfections. I shall certainly come back to the sutta and commentary. Best wishes from Nina. op 07-08-2002 06:46 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > Dear Nina, > Here is the opening section from the anapanasati sutta, and a link to the rest > of > the translated sections on this site. 14821 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 2:08am Subject: vipallasa for stream entry Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend --- Dear Frank, Nice to see everyone checking up on me. Nanamoli confirms what I wrote in his translation of the Patisambhidhimagga (part of the sutta pitaka); and the Pali confirms that Nanamoli is right (assuming the Burmese rendition is correct). I did make a typo below earlier I reversed sukkha and dukkha:"And he has eliminated taking sukkha > > for dukkha and " Should be "And he has eliminated taking dukkha for sukkha ...at the level of ditthi ". Dukkha is deep! 8. Vipallaasakathaa Ime cattaaro vipallaasaa di.t.thisampannassa puggalassa pahiinaa, appahiinaati. Keci pahiinaa, keci appahiinaa? Anicce niccanti sa~n~naavi pallaaso cittavipallaaso di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. Dukkhe sukhanti sa~n~naa uppajjati, citta.m uppajjati, di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. Anattani attaati sa~n~naavipallaaso cittavipallaaso di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. Asubhe subhanti sa~n~naa uppajjati, citta.m uppajjati, di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. The phrase near the beginning: '"di.t.thisampannassa puggalassa" means person who possesses right view - i.e. sotapanna. Robert frank kuan wrote: > are you sure you got this right Robert? do you have a > link to an online version we can verify? it sounds > highly improbable that one could understand the marks > of impermanence and anatta to such a degree, with no > perversions at the level consciousness, perception, or > views, yet still have misperception of dukkha. If > that's what the commentaries or suttas say, then I > would have to disagree with those sources as well :) > > -fk > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > Dear Gogler, > > Thanks for following along. > > The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna > > has eradicated > > all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, > > and citta) as I > > said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) > > vipallasa at all > > these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha > > for dukkha and > > taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of > > Ditthi. However he > > hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and > > taking the foul for > > the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. > > Hence he still has > > desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see > > patisambhidhimagga > > viii (2)) > > > > Robert > 14822 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 4:59am Subject: On the Restoration of Bhikkhuni Order, was [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Sarah, Thanks for this post. I may be a while in replying .... the pace will be that of a Very Slow Snail :) Lots of reading around this point, let alone the whole topic. metta, Christine > > This is the first point. Do you have any comments or would you like to > introduce any comments/textual support you've heard for or against this > first possibility `presented by G.P.M. Malalasekera', before I add > anything further? > ***** > "First, according to the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, the Buddha, when lying > on his death bed, is said to have told his attendant Aananda that the > Sa"ngha was permitted to abolish lesser and minor rules.[23] Malalasekara > says "That, then, is the first possibility - a decision by a > representative assembly of the Sa"ngha to dispense with the traditional > ceremonial in the ordination of nuns."[24] Making use of the Buddha's > final concession, it is within the power of the Bhikkhu Sa"ngha to make > the necessary amendments to restore the Bhikkhunii Sa"ngha by performing > an ordination without, the participation of nuns. If any monk believes > that the rules pertaining to the ordination of nuns are of major concern > and do not fall within the category of "lesser and minor rules," he would > be invited to come forth and justify his position." > > Sarah > ===== 14823 From: <> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:18am Subject: ADL ch. 19 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 19 (4) There are still other kinds of kamavacara sobhana cittas: the maha-kiriyacittas. The arahat has maha-kiriyacittas instead of maha-kusala cittas. When we experience a pleasant object lobha may arise and when we experience an unpleasant object dosa may arise. The arahat has equanimity towards pleasant objects or unpleasant objects; he has no defilements. Since he cannot accumulate any more akusala kamma or kusala kamma, he has maha-kiriyacittas (inoperative cittas). For the arahat, there are, instead of maha-kusala cittas, maha-kiriyacittas performing the function of javana after the votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) and the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness). One may wonder whether the arahat can have maha-kiriyacittas which are nana-vippayutta (not accompanied by wisdom). Arahats can have maha-kiriyacittas which are nana-vippayutta, because panna does not necessarily accompany the maha-kiriyacittas when they are not preaching or discussing Dhamma. The arahat has kiriyacittas which are sobhana cittas and also kiriyacittas which are asobhana cittas. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness, the mano-dvaravajjana-citta and the hasituppada-citta (smile-producing-consciousness of the arahat) are asobhana kiriyacittas. These types of citta are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, they are ahetuka. There are eight types of maha-kiriyacittas in all. They are accompanied by somanassa or by upekkha, they are accompanied by panna or not accompanied by panna, they are asankharika or sasankharika. They are classified in the same way as the eight types of maha-kusala cittas. Altogether there are fifty-four cittas which are kama-bhumi (Bhumi is plane, in this case, plane of citta, not plane of existence.), or kamavacara cittas, cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. They are: 12 akusala cittas 18 ahetuka cittas }30 sobhana cittas 8 maha-kusala cittas 8 maha-vipakacittas }24 sobhana cittas 8 maha-kiriyacittas There are also sobhana cittas which are not kama-sobhana cittas, namely: the sobhana cittas which are rupa-bhumi (rupavacara cittas, for those who attain rupa-jhana) the sobhana cittas which are arupa-bhumi (arupavacara cittas, for those who attain arupa-jhana) the sobhana cittas which are lokuttara-bhumi, for those who attain enlightenment Only kamavacara cittas (cittas of the kama-bhumi or sensuous plane of consciousness) can be asobhana cittas. Cittas which are rupa-bhumi, arupa-bhumi and lokuttara-bhumi can only be sobhana cittas. Those who do not attain jhana or attain enlightenment cannot have the cittas of the other bhumis, but they can verify the truth of the Buddha's teachings as regards the kama-bhumi. We can find out for ourselves whether it is helpful to perform dana, observe sila and cultivate bhavana. We can find out whether the cultivation of these ways of kusala helps us to have less akusala cittas. Sometimes it is the right moment for dana, sometimes for sila or for bhavana. Vipassana, however, one can cultivate while performing dana, observing sila, cultivating samatha, or while one is studying or teaching Dhamma, and also at those moments when there is no opportunity for dana, sila or the other ways of kusala. Even if mindfulness of nama and rupa has not yet been accumulated much, one can find out whether it is a condition for having less akusala cittas and less attachment to the concept of self. In being mindful we can verify the truth of the Buddha's teachings. We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sevens, Ch. VIII, par. 9, The message): 'Now the venerable Upali came to the Exalted One, saluted and sat down at one side. So seated, he said: 'Well were it for me, lord, if the Exalted One were to expound Dhamma briefly to me, so that, having heard it, I might abide resolute, alone, secluded, earnest and zealous.' 'The doctrines, Upali, of which you may know; 'These doctrines lead one not to complete weariness (of the world), nor to dispassion, nor to ending, nor to calm, nor to knowledge, nor to the awakening, nor to the cool' -- regard them definitely as not Dhamma, not the discipline, not the word of the Teacher. But the doctrines of which you may know: 'These doctrines lead one to complete weariness, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, the awakening, the cool'-- regard them unreservedly as Dhamma, the discipline, the word of the Teacher.' Questions 1. Which cittas are ahetuka (without hetu)? Are they always asobhana? 2. Do arahats have asobhana cittas? 3. Why is the jhanacitta not kamavacara citta? 4. Are maha-kusala cittas always accompanied by somanassa (pleasant feeling)? 5. Are all sobhana cittas kusala cittas? 6. Can vipakacitta be sobhana citta? 7. Can kiriyacitta be sobhana citta? 8. Why has the arahat maha-kiriyacittas instead of maha-kusala cittas? 9. How many types of kamavacara cittas are there? 14824 From: <> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 8:18am Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi Kom, I'm not clear on what is the path. Would you explain that? Also, is listening to the dhamma a bhavana? If so, what makes an activity a bhavana? thanks, Larry 14825 From: azita gill Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: past/future lives, was Noosa weekend --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Ken, > There is also the > Alagaddupama Sutta in the Majjhima nikaya (22)where > it explains that > learning the Dhamma wrongly is like catching a snake > by the tail. > One can study with the wrong motivations and > actually increase mana > and ditthi and tanha - and this applies to all of > us. Again and > again we should examine to see whether we are > unknowingly trying to > gain something for 'me'. This is a good sutta to > discuss. > Robert dear Robert, e very good - I like the reminders. What about this - if I do something in this life knowing it may benefit the being in the future, that is 'me'in the future [ ooo- this sounds like atta] however I have no way of knowing when, or even if, that result will happen, but I know if there is a result[vipaka] is may be pleasant. Can I have compassion for a being that doesn't exist yet, but I'm fairly certain will and 'I'm' doing something now to benefit that future being? I'm not too sure about this question and I must add that that this thought has only occurred one other time. I can't remember past lives and I probably won't remember this life in the future, I think memory of past lives is a highly developed ability. , Would be interested to hear your [or anyone elses] comment on this. > May you have much patience, courage and good cheer, < Azita.> > > 14826 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail Dearest Christine and Fk, Thank you for your help and kind words. I will try doing what you suggested Christine and see how it works. I appreciate the help as I was feeling overwhelmed with all the emails from the group. This solution will certain create a little space in my inbox. With metta, Shakti christine_forsyth wrote:Hi Deanna (and Azita), I solved the problem of the procession of non-stop emails from choking up my inbox by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Click on "Edit my Groups" - change any lists (especially those with heavy email traffic) to "no mail" by selecting under "message delivery", click on "save changes" and then read at the website at your leisure by returning anytime to the link above and clicking on the Group Name in the left hand column. Like Frank, I don't always read all posts or all threads immediately. Azita - I just remembered we were also discussing this subject at Noosa.:) metta, Christine --- frank kuan wrote: > Deanna, you can set up your yahoo email account filter > (search for "dsg") and put it into a separate folder > for starters so it doesn't get mixed up with other > email. > > The desire to maintain orderliness and read every > single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. > Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's > easier to let it go. > > I realized a while back that there is no law that > demands that once I start reading a book or email that > I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and > frees up loads of time. > > -fk > 14827 From: goglerr Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 1:51pm Subject: Re: Vipallasa Dear Robert, Thanks for the sharing. I went through the PTS version and found the references that you gave. Interesting. metta G --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Gogler, > Thanks for following along. > The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna has eradicated > all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, and citta) as I > said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) vipallasa at all > these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and > taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of Ditthi. However he > hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and taking the foul for > the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. Hence he still has > desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see patisambhidhimagga > viii (2)) > > Robert > --- > > "goglerr" wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > I was following your interesting message and something caught my > eye. > > Regarding on the statement of vipallasa, that all types of > > perversions are eradicated by sotapatti maggaphala may not be that > > true. On my understanding that only ditthi vipallasa are > eradicated > > at that stage. A sotapana can still have anger, sensual desire, > > ignorance but not wrong view about permanent or everlasting self. > > Only arahants can only eradicate sanna and citta vipalassa. > > > G > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: 14828 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipallasa Hi Goglerr & All, --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks for the sharing. I went through the PTS version and found the > references that you gave. Interesting. ..... This is an extract from an earlier post of Kom’s (see under vipallasa in U.P.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ***** Kom: As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu cetasikkas) cittas. The objects of the vipalassa are four: 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance 2) Seeing dukha as sukha 3) Seeing anatta as atta 4) Seeing asubha as subha The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as followed: Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D ***** Sarah ===== 14829 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:07pm Subject: Mindfulness for Children Hi Sarah, One of my students in my Abhidhamma class sent me a link to a site with provides tools to teach mindfulness to children. http://www.mindfulnessclasses.com/tucsonet/bilby/kindergarten.htm Don't be fooled by the title, this is not just for kindergarten kids - I really liked the graphics for thinking and egolessness. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14830 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:14pm Subject: Look out, my BRe: [dsg] Re: Vipallasa (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it line up for me...) > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D comments: 1) putujana makes perfect sense 2) arahant makes perfect sense 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and accords with the suttas. Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me. 1) anagami: 14831 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it line up for me...) > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D comments: 1) putujana makes perfect sense 2) arahant makes perfect sense 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and accords with the suttas. Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me. 1) anagami: from the canonical qualitative description, we know that the difference between anagami and arhat is a very subtle feeling of "I am", and all desire of sensuality abandoned. So I would think that the chart would show the anatta column showing some remainder of vipallasa. But instead, not only for the anagami, but also for the stream enterer and once returner it shows all 3 types of vipallassa eradicated for anatta!!! What the .....???? This whole scheme of vipallasa and levels at sanna, citta, ditthi, when used to try to differentiate the 4 grades of sainthood seems to fall apart and make absolutely no sense. I mean, think about it. it's saying for all 4 grades of ssainthood, no wrong view of anatta, no wrong moment of citta, no wrong moment of perception arises. So please explain to me if one *sees* anatta at each moment, how the hell can erroneous views of dukkha, subha arise? If erroneous perception of dukkha arises, then anatta has DEFINITELY not been penetrated. End of story. Am I missing something here? Am I not understanding something? You all, except maybe gogler seem to think this all makes sense. Meanwhile, the needle just flew off my bullshit detector. Pardon my strong language. Despite my strong grasp of anatta, my misunderstanding of subha and dukkha seems to cause occasional outbursts of profanity. -fk 14832 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha and Vipassana Hi Erik, Hope you’re still there...;-) It’s always good to ‘hear’ you. --- rikpa21 wrote: > Nina is discussing anapansati in detail with Rob Ep and Larry and Rob K also got back to part of your well-written post. You ended with this paragraph: > Perhaps one helpful question to answer for oneself is, "how long can > it is possible to maintain unbroken mindfulness, even while > sitting?" If the answer is "for a few seconds" or even "for a few > minutes," then I submit there is a lot of bhavana needed before > mindfulness and concentration are well-enough established to arise > amidst daily activities, consistently, to the point they yield the > fruits of the Holy Path. I realize this is one opinion only, but it > is entirely consistent with what I've been taught and most > importantly, in experience (not pretending to have mindfulness in > all daily life situations though! Much bhavana needed for that > yet! :). ..... A few brief comments only: 1. When you came to Thailand, I remember you intended to study the Abhidhamma carefully. How does this idea of maintaining ‘unbroken mindfulness’ fit in with these studies? Please also look at comments on this in the following post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10681 2. In the suttas we read about the value of a ‘finger-snap’ of awareness and wholesome states. Isn’t it better to accept conditioned dhammas --whether kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya -- with equanimity rather than striving or trying to maintain ‘unbroken mindfulness’ with an idea of self and attachment for it? 3. When there is any concern or wishing for ‘fruits of the Holy Path’ it seems there isn’t any minfulness now. Life is very short -- just this moment. As you suggest, there is little mindfulness. There is also little understanding of mindfulness or the objects of mindfulness most the time. As we know, right understanding of namas and rupas is essential and it can only ever arise at the present moment. In what way are these realities any more real and any more likely to be objects of mindfulness at other specific times. It’s true there is a lot of ignorance, forgetfulness and other kilesa now. It takes courage (and good cheer) to face up to and accept what is conditioned already and to understand these dhammas as anatta. 4. What is the role of concentration? Is there an idea that self has to concentrate on an object such as breath? In what way is this wholesome and different from concentrating on any other object? Is there concentration now? Is there the idea that there should be more concentration? What is the present mind-state when we think like this? ***** Erik, meanwhile we look forward to seeing you very soon and hope that at an appropriate time you will give DSG an update on how you’re getting on and any happy news to share as you have many friends here;-) Sarah ===== 14833 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: past/future lives, was Noosa weekend Dear Azita, This question is a good topic. The sutta was about a monk who had studied Dhamma and reasoned that because laymen may still enjoy sexual relations - and at the same time attain stages of enlightenment - why then shouldn't monks be allowed such pleasures in their life. It is clever reasoning but not wise. Your example ""if I do something in this life knowing it > may benefit the being in the future, that is 'me'in > the future [ ooo- this sounds like atta] however I > have no way of knowing when, or even if, that result > will happen, but I know if there is a result[vipaka] > is may be pleasant. Can I have compassion for a being > that doesn't exist yet, but I'm fairly certain will > and 'I'm' doing something now to benefit that future > being? """ Knowing that doing good will bring good results in the future is part of kammasakata nana (knowledge of kamma and its results). A talk by A. Sujin on this http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html There are many examples in the suttas of people doing good with the main aim of enjoying the pleasant results in the future. This is not ' grabbing the snake by the tail' but it is a limited view. It is not a parami when there are such aims; but it may be a parami if there is the understanding that these actions may contribute to rebirth in planes where the Dhamma can be heard and practiced. Even we have no wish for future benefits they will come because that is the way kamma works; especially, though, all kusala 'equips the mind for insight' the highest kusala. Robert --- azita gill <> wrote: > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > Dear Ken, > > There is also the > > Alagaddupama Sutta in the Majjhima nikaya (22)where > > it explains that > > learning the Dhamma wrongly is like catching a snake > > by the tail. > > One can study with the wrong motivations and > > actually increase mana > > and ditthi and tanha - and this applies to all of > > us. Again and > > again we should examine to see whether we are > > unknowingly trying to > > gain something for 'me'. This is a good sutta to > > discuss. > > Robert > 14834 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:30pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Robert K Thank you for this interesting information. Just one question at this early stage: You wrote: --------- > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often (this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > ----------- When you say it doesn't arise often, do you mean only once or twice per day or do you mean only once or twice per milli-second? Millions of paramattha dhammas come and go in the blink of an eye; I had assumed that there would be conditions for just about all of them to appear in that time, some in more significant proportions than others, of course. Have I picked up a wrong impression there? Kind regards Ken H --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --Dear Ken, > Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom > could explain more thoroughly. > In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: > Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging > silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice > Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. > > All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga > > Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of > self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then > sanna. > Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( > this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is > conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers > of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. > > 14835 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:55pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend --- Dear Ken, I'd like to hear what Nina says about this. The sotapanna has eliminated the four types of consciousness associated with ditthi (ditthigatasampayuttam)- these types of dhamma can never arise; but still has the four with ditthigatavippayuttam and these will keep arising very frequently. One thing I am not sure on is whether the atta vipallasa at the level of sanna and citta counts as 'ditthigatasampayuttam' citta. Probably it does and so for a non-ariyan this type of citta will still frequently arise. However, I think the vipallasa at the level of wrong view because it is so coarse is much less frequent for those who have considered correctly and deeply. Robert "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Robert K > > Thank you for this interesting information. Just one > question at this early stage: > > You wrote: > --------- > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and > considered > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not > arise often (this is a coarse belief) but other levels > do; depending on the > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > > ----------- > > When you say it doesn't arise often, do you mean only > once or twice per day or do you mean only once or > twice per milli-second? > > Millions of paramattha dhammas come and go in the > blink of an eye; I had assumed that there would be > conditions for just about all of them to appear in > that time, some in more significant proportions than > others, of course. Have I picked up a wrong > impression there? > > Kind regards > Ken H > > > --- 14836 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Hi Frank, I can't resist butting in to this thread.....(maybe it's the title;-)) --- frank kuan wrote: > > (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it > line up for me...) That’s funny - I tried giving it a ‘massage’ last time too - it looked fine on my screen (probably did on Kom’s too), but when it came back on the list, it looked like your massage version also;-) > > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > comments: > 1) putujana makes perfect sense > 2) arahant makes perfect sense > 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views > perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and > accords with the suttas. ..... OK, good we’ll tick those off and look at all the fiddly ones in between;-) ..... > Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO > SENSE to me. > 1) anagami: from the canonical qualitative > description, we know that the difference between > anagami and arhat is a very subtle feeling of "I am", > and all desire of sensuality abandoned. So I would > think that the chart would show the anatta column > showing some remainder of vipallasa. But instead, not > only for the anagami, but also for the stream enterer > and once returner it shows all 3 types of vipallassa > eradicated for anatta!!! What the .....???? ..... As I understand, at first stage of enlightenment (sotapanna), all idea and clinging to any idea of self is completely eradicated. There is no idea of “I am.”. It’s completely apparent that what is taken by the putujana’s thinking to be a self are only namas and rupas, only elements. The difference between the anagami and arahat, are some remaining very subtle cravings. There are no longer any cravings or attachment for sense objects, but subtle attachment for example to bhava (becoming)or to jhanic experience. (I forget what else).In other words, there is still sanna and citta vipallasa taking dukkha for sukha Of course there is thinking about ‘Frank’ or ‘Sarah’, but no subtle feeling of “I am” as you suggest. We can see what an extraordinary level of wisdom it is at even the sotapanna level. ...... > > This whole scheme of vipallasa and levels at sanna, > citta, ditthi, when used to try to differentiate the 4 > grades of sainthood seems to fall apart and make > absolutely no sense. ..... At the second stage (sakadagami), threre is still (subtle) attachment to sense objects and therefore the taking of the foul for beautiful (asubha for subha). For example, attachment to colours or tastes. As we know, lobha and dosa and moha have been greatly reduced at this stage. ..... > I mean, think about it. it's saying for all 4 grades > of ssainthood, no wrong view of anatta, no wrong > moment of citta, no wrong moment of perception arises. > So please explain to me if one *sees* anatta at each > moment, how the hell can erroneous views of dukkha, > subha arise? If erroneous perception of dukkha arises, > then anatta has DEFINITELY not been penetrated. End of > story. ..... ‘No wrong view of anatta’ does not mean ‘no wrong moment of citta’, if you’re meaning akusala citta (unwholesome) rather than citta with ditthi (wrong view). There can still be many, many moments of ignorance in a day and also attachment and aversion without any idea of self. This doesn’t mean there are ‘erroneous views of dukkha and subha’ (all wrong views eradicated), but clinging to the unsatisfactory and the foul, not appreciating at those moments that they are the undsatisfactory and the foul. Isn’t there attachment now to visible object? Most the time when there is this attachment there isn’t any ‘feeling of self’, just attachment to what’s seen. Of course, as soon as there’s a ‘story’ or ‘feeling’ as you describe, the erroneous idea of self is likely to creep back. ..... > Am I missing something here? Am I not understanding > something? You all, except maybe gogler seem to think > this all makes sense. Meanwhile, the needle just flew > off my bullshit detector. Pardon my strong language. > Despite my strong grasp of anatta, my misunderstanding > of subha and dukkha seems to cause occasional > outbursts of profanity. ..... Hmm....We’re watching;-) . This is why there are different classifications or ways of looking at realities, because sometimes different ones give new insights or perspectives....It really only makes a little sense to me because we discussed it earlier (you might like to check a couple of other posts on the topic in U.P) Let us know if this makes any more sense. Hope I’m not misleading you or confusing you further. Rob K or Kom may add more details. Sarah ===== 14837 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 9:52pm Subject: Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa --- Dear Frank, Just a point, the sotapanna still has mana, conceit, even though he has no view of self.... Different classifications such as the anusaya, the kilesa, the vipallasa help us to look at realities from different aspects Robert frank kuan wrote: > > (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it > line up for me...) > > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > comments: > 1) putujana makes perfect sense > 2) arahant makes perfect sense > 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views > perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and > accords with the suttas. > > Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO > SENSE to me. > 14838 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in Life Dear Christine, I too feel like you at times. I wonder if all this study at times in fact keeps one from really being in the moment. When I do feel this way at times I just relax into the space and go with what feels right - that to do nothing. I wonder if the point of life is to just allow it to happen. Sitting silently watching the grass grow? Shakti kenhowardau wrote:Christine, There is no obligation to discover the meaning of life. There is no need to `do worthwhile things.' There is only the present moment in which nama and rupa rise and fall away. Kind regards Ken H --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine 14839 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 10:36pm Subject: Free Will Hi Robert (Kirkpatrick) and others, I was preparing my class on the Noble Eightfold Path by Reviewing Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on the subject: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html I came across the following passage, "As [mundane right view] affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits set by their conditions, it opposes the 'hard deterministic' line that our choices are always made subject to necessitation." This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I want to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". I want to stress again that I am not yet ready to enter into a discussion on the topic. I am, however, really looking forward to the discussion - it's gonna be really interesting! Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the main course that is coming later). Thanks, Rob M :-) 14840 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 11:20pm Subject: Re: Free Will --- "robmoult" wrote: > > This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I want > to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". > Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your > comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the main > course that is coming later). ___________________________________ Dear RobM, I paste some comments I made in 2 old letters, they are a little off the point but I'm happy to add more anytime. Someone wrote to me a while back who feels that no control is a dangerous idea.They wanted to stress control and volitional intention which is what they believe that Buddha really taught and they feel uncontrollabilty to be a pernicious belief leading to apathy. "I have a choice whether to get angry in the present moment." the writer said."this is new kamma". I replied: Yes, the processes of cittas during anger are new kamma. However, they are also conditioned. The Patthana, the last and most important book of the Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24 paccaya (conditions). Some of which are past and some present. But even the present ones do not simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because "I" want them to. The processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and there is no "person" who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even the cittas that are arising at this moment are conditioned by previous cittas as well as well as by other conditions that are present at the same time. This is not the place to go into details but it is well worth studying the Patthana. It gives us a glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom of the Buddha. They further wrote that "we are not just helpless automata acting out our old kamma - that is absurd. I hope the above helps overcome the despair that comes from the belief that we are a slave to our conditioning." I said "This sounds like the debates that western Philosophy used to have (and still does) about Free-will versus Determinism. The Buddha's analysis of the world is neither, it is the middle path. Thus the statement about "we being helpless automata acting out our old kamma" misses the point. There is no "we" to be anything. And kamma is not the only condition. Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the deep teachings on anatta, are a condition for understanding. This understanding leads to energy: energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the study and practice of vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that will gladly keep developing understanding moment after moment, life after life, aeon after aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if understanding grows then there will be detachment from the idea of self and of control. Then there is no more despair about the path - because "I" have been taken out of the equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that we want to be happy, get enlightened , whatever. Then, as the Visuddhimagga says, 'there is a path but no one on the path'." This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it is itself conditioned. What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). Why are we so interested in Dhamma? Why isn't the leader of the Taliban interested; surely he makes effort, surely he has the intention to do what is best? Why do some people hear Dhamma but find it unappealing while others can't get enough even after hearing it just once? Why are some initially not interested and then later they get interested and surpass in understanding those who studied much longer? It is clear that there must be reasons for all this; and the Dhamma explains it all. You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except nibbana > are > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then > thinking one > can develop anything seems like an exercise in > micchaditthi.... _________________ Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done. ____________________________ > > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for > lack of a > better f-word) "fate"? "" __________________ Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did this that or the other nothing would make a thread of difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions. It is true that some are past conditions but there are also present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way and is neither. When we hear a teacher say "develop it" this can be a condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on the understanding of the listener. Robert 14841 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 11:22pm Subject: Re: Free Will Oops, I did not give the complete quote from Bhikhu Bodhi, "As [mundane right view affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits set by their conditions, it opposes the 'hard deterministic' line that our choices are always made subject to necessitation, and hence that free volition is unreal and moral responsibility untenable." I interpret this as saying that "free volition" (free will?) is real. --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert (Kirkpatrick) and others, > > I was preparing my class on the Noble Eightfold Path by Reviewing > Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on the subject: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html > > I came across the following passage, "As [mundane right view] > affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits > set by their conditions, it opposes the 'hard deterministic' line > that our choices are always made subject to necessitation." > > This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I want > to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". > > I want to stress again that I am not yet ready to enter into a > discussion on the topic. I am, however, really looking forward to > the discussion - it's gonna be really interesting! > > Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your > comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the main > course that is coming later). > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14842 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Hi Sarah, > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X Yes, all are agreed that VIEWS (dithi) are eradicated for all stages of sainthood. The main problem I"m having is (according to the chart, and what Robert checked on teh translations) all 4 levels have Anatta penetrated at the aspects of S,C,D (perception, citta, dithi). So if citta antta is penetrated, and sanna anatta penetrated for ALL 4 STAGES, that to me sounds like complete enlightenement, complete understanding of anatta. One who has complete penetration of anatta is not going to be confused about dukkha and subha. Sarah, I understand from your explanation how whoever devised this vipallasa system uses it to try to explain the differnence between arhat and non-returner by showing how the subtle feeling of conceit present in the non-returner is in the subtle misperception of dukkha, and in a way that sort of makes sense, BUT: The 3 marks + subha are not independent mutually exclusive entities. Sanna, citta, do not arise independently of one another. You can not peg sainthood into these neat categories like someone trying to complete a baseball card collection by checking off independent pieces. Every moment of reality does not consist of independent pieces of anicca, dukkha, anatta that need to be understood separately. It's all just different aspects of the same moment of reality. If you completely penetrate the nature of anatta, you've also completely penetrated dukkha and anicca. ^ the above paragraph is my diplomatic way of saying the vipallasa system is completely lame and misleading. It seems like a feeble attempt to break down the concept of wisdom and quantify it in terms of more constituent basic units, but instead it just confounds. It's times like this I seriously wonder if abidhamma is legitimate buddhism. It seems like they try to break things down into minute detail to deepen understanding, but then are forced to construct even more detail and more awkward nuances in an attempt to explain away logical inconsistencies. -fk 14843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Larry, perception, citta and pa~n~naa are nama, they are elements which know, but what and how they know is different in each case. The next para about the simile of the coins may be easier: Vis XIV, 4,5. Perception is like a child who sees the coin, but it does not know more about it. Citta is like the villager who knows more, he knows the value. Panna is like the money changer who knows all the details of the coins. This simile is used only to show that panna is "knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing". We should not draw wrong conclusions when we read under citta that it reaches the penetration of the characteristics of the coin. Here is not meant the three charactreistics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta that can only be known by panna. The simile could mislead one. op 07-08-2002 04:42 schreef <> op <>: > Visuddhimagga XIV, 2: > > In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (panna) in the > sense of act of understanding (pajanana). What is this act of > understanding? It is knowing (janana) in a particular mode separate from > the modes of perceiving (sanjanana) and cognizing (vijanana). > > Larry: I take this to mean that consciousness without a lot of wisdom is > capable of penetrating the three characteristics, anicca, dukkha, > anatta. And, as the second stage of the path of purification is called > citta-visuddhi, I therefore think during this _stage_ (if not actually > while immersed in jhana) the three characteristics are penetrated. N: as explained above, only panna can. Panna which has been developed through reaching all stages of insight knowledge. There is no other way. L: Beyond that, and to the question whether ordinary people like us can > experience jhana, I must confess I have a new understanding. Previously > I mistakenly thought samatha was synonymous with samadhi; it is actually > synonymous with jhana. Samadhi is just focus. So whether there is > tranquility or jhana is just a matter of degree. And considering that we > abhidhammikas regard even the briefest moment as significant, I think it > is not unlikely that all of us has experienced jhana occasionally. N: There are the different notions of samadhi, samatha and jhana we should study. The Buddhist Dictionary can help, but not in each case. Samadhi, one-pointedness, can be right concentration or wrong concentration, depending on what citta it accompanies. Samatha: tranquillity. How and when is there samatha? When kusala citta arises, because at that moment one is free from akusala and that is calm. When we are generous, there is calm, but such moments are so short. Seeing and hearing also arise, and, very often subtle clinging follows the sense impressions, but we do not notice this. It is panna which can realize this. Samatha bhavana, the development of calm. There are specific objects which can condition more calm, such as metta, recollection of the Triple Gem, which includes Recollection of the Dhamma. Also when there is mindfulness and understanding of the characteristics of the realities that appear now, there is calm. There is calm or samatha in vipassana. Samatha can be used as a synonym of samadhi, the dictionary tells us. When we read about concentration, we should also think of calm which goes together with it. When someone is interested in his meditation subject, for example, recollection of the Dhamma, there are conditions for being concentrated on it without forcing or too much effort, concentration arises naturally because of conditions. Then, we can check, there is also calm. Now in samatha, as samadhi is developed, there is: preparatory concentration, access concentration and attainment concentration or jhana. As these stages are progressively reached, calm also grows. Thus we cannot say that samadhi is synonymous with jhana as you see here. There are degrees. Samadhi is not just focussing. The Buddha did not teach to , to , he taught understanding. There has to be understanding in samatha. Lobha may lure us, and really, it must be difficult to discern when there is lobha, and when there is pure kusala citta. Strong panna and sati are essential. Is jhana some state all of us experience occasionally, as you suggest? Is it occasionally or after careful preparation, observing all conditions? See the Visuddhimagga. There is another notion we should go into: satipatthana. As mentioned before in this forum, it has three meanings: 1. the object of sati and panna, and these are classified as the four Applications of Mindfulness (in some translations: confections). These objects are whatever nama or rupa appears one at a time through one of the six doorways. If we read about the four Applications without understanding of ultimate realities misunderstandings will arise. All objects are classified among these four Applications. No matter whether we read about hairs of the head, the four postures, breath, all these subjects can remind us to be aware now. We do not have to name any Application or believe that one day we should be aware of rupas, one day of feelings. Sound may appear now, it is only a rupa appearing through the ears. The next moment there may be unpleasant feeling on account of what is heard. Or there may be mindfulness of hearing, which is different from sound, then there is mindfulness of citta. How fast objects can change. Recently I heard a tape where A. Sujin explained: we may read about the Dhamma a great deal, but we should understand this word: dhamma. It is a reality that appears. When is it true? Now, when it appears. Know the dhamma that appears, as only a dhamma. If we do not grasp this, we shall have misunderstandings of the object of satipatthana. 2. sati of satipatthana, different from sati of dana or sati of sila. It is sati sampajanna, sati and panna:awareness and the development of understanding of a characteristic of a nama or of a rupa that appears now. 3. It is the Way the Buddha and the ariyans went leading to the goal: the end of dukkha. We read and hear about the development of satipatthana: it is actually the same as the development of vipassana or the development of the eightfold Path: it all amounts to the development of right understanding of nama and rupa now. The foregoing can be of use when we, later on, deal with the anapana sati that brings to fulfillment the four Applications of Mindfulness. We should know the meaning of all those words. If we do not study Abhidhamma we may read the suttas with a notion of self who is doing a special practice and making an effort to practise. Whereas in reality there are only paramattha dhammas arising because of condiitons. As I heard on the tape: when sati is aware there must be paramattha dhammas that appear so that we know that these characteristics are not self. Without the study of the Abhidhamma we do not understand the noble Truth of dukkha: the arising and falling away, impermanence, must be a characteristic of a paramattha dhamma. What is impermanent is dukkha. Larry: Finally, I think there is a good reason to practice jhana. That reason > is dukkha. Jhana is a proximate cause for panna but it is also a > pleasant retreat from dukkha. Even panna can sometimes get to be ~too > much~. Nina: If one wants to attain jhana, as I said before, one should be prepared to live . See all the preparations that are necessary. We cannot escape dukkha so long as we are trapped by lobha and other defilements. And we have to know the meaning of the noble Truth of dukkha (see above). Do we want to gain something for ourselves? It is better to know when we are trapped than not to know. That is the beginning of panna. Rob K. handed me a treasure when he wrote to Ken: I appreciate all the treasures in this forum. When translating A. Suijn's Perfections I am reminded all the time: so long as we wish a reward or some gain kusala is not a perfection. We want less dukkha, a good rest, or hearing kind words, words of appreciation, compliments, instead of harsh, unpleasant words. This should be applied in all kinds of situations, but we forget. It should also be applied in the development of calm and of insight. Do we long for more awareness ? I cannot hear enough of such reminders. Now Larry, you find panna sometimes too much. We should not try to grasp too much, it grows by itself, little by little, at snail pace or even more slowly. It grows by studying, considering, listening. Today we understand just a very little bit more than yesterday. Best wishes from Nina. 14844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, fourth tetrad. Dear Rob Ep, I shall go into your points below. op 07-08-2002 06:19 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > R: I would like to add that aside from tranquility, my understanding is that a > major > attainment of jhana is concentration. In jhana the mind is one-pointed until > the > distinction between subject-object is extinguished and there is no sense of > separate self. In the case of someone who still has seeds of self, this may > be a > suppression rather than a final attainment, but jhana imitates and also sets > as > foundation for the eradication of self-concept Nina: As to no distinction between subject-object, I try to understand: you probably mean: just the meditation subject is experienced and one does not think of a subject who experiences? I think that it is important to have more clarity about the object experienced by jhanacitta and the object experienced by insight. When the object of samatha is breath, the meditator should begin to pay attention to breath where it touches the nosetip or upperlip, see Vis. Rupas such as hardness or heat are appearing, but the goal in Samatha is not knowing their true nature, but the goal is calm by means of this subject, to be free from akusala, from the hindrances. Also in samatha, one needs sati and panna, how otherwise could one know when there is subtle clinging to the pleasant sensation while following his breathing in and out, a sensation of wellbeing, and being without the worries or agitation daily life is bound up with? If he does not realize the difference between pure kusala citta and subtle clinging, he may believe that sensuous desire, one of the hindrances, is suppressed, but instead of coarse covetousness he still has subtle clinging to calm, thus there is still that hindrance. When he makes progress with his development, the nimitta, the sign appears, Vis. VIII, 214, 217. This sign or image is not a nama or rupa, a paramattha dhamma or ultimate reality. And the goal is calm, not right understanding of a nama or rupa appearing now through one of the six doors. In the beginning there is a learning sign and when calm is more developed a counterpart sign appears. He reaches access and absorption. Thus, the object of the jhanacitta is a nimitta, a sign. If he also wants to develop insight he ( VIII, 222, and IV, 131). Among these are entering into jhana and emerging from it whenever one wants to. When one has entered and then emerged, insight can be developed. First and this is the first stage of tender insight knowledge. We read VIII, 223-224 about the following stages of insight up to arahatship. He sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the body and the mind as their origin. He defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as rupa and the citta and cetasikas as nama. Here we have to be careful: he is not mindful of the body as a whole, but of rupas of the body as they appear one at a time. More about this later on in the Co to the anapasati sutta. We read about the second stage of tender insight: realizing conditions for the arising of nama and of rupa, and so on for all stages. When we read about the three characteristics, we have to remember that these are the three characteristics of paramattha dhammas, of one nama or rupa as it appears one at a time through one of the six doorways. The Vis. mentions the impermanence of the five khandhas, see below in the fourth tetrad. These are nothing else but one nama or rupa as it appears one at a time through one of the six doorways. In the course of the development of insight the nama or rupa which appears can be realized as impermanent, or as dukkha, or as non-self, but only when insight has been progressively developed, stage by stage. Now you could check for yourself whether the characteristic of non-self can be realized during the moments of jhanacitta which has a nimitta as object, or at the moments of cittas of the sensesphere, cittas which are accompanied by sati and panna and have as object a paramattha dhamma as it appears in daily life. Now we go on to the fourth tetrad. When reading the Co to the Anapana sati sutta I see that it refers to all these passages of the Visuddhimagga and partly repeats them. Thus we are going to need them later on. (XIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence². (XIV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating fading away²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating fading away². (XV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating cessation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating cessation². (XVI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment². As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, ³(XIII) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating impermanence², the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) states: Œ ... Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is contemplation of materiality, etc., as ³impermanent² in virtue of that impermanence...¹ Further on the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.¹ As regards the clause: ³(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating fading away², the Visuddhimagga states that there are two kinds of fading away, namely: ³fading away as destruction² which is the ³momentary dissolution of formations² (conditioned realities) and ³absolute fading away² which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold contemplation that it can be understood of him ³He trains thus, I shall breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away.² ¹ The same method of explanation is applied to the clause ³contemplating cessation². And with regard to the clause (XVI) ³contemplating relinquishment², the Visuddhimagga states: ³relinquishment is of two kinds too, that is to say, relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into.² ³Giving up² is the giving up of defilements, and ³entering into² is the entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. Also this clause pertains to insight alone. With best wishes, Nina. 14845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] dreams Dear Jim K, Welcome to this forum. I am glad you find A. Sujin's Perfections helpful. While I translate them I find them such good reminders for the situations in my daily life. Your question about rupa: a dream is quite a different matter. I was referring to a mind-door process of cittas arising immediately after a sense-door process of cittas: in that case the visible object or sound which has just fallen away is still experienced through the mind-door. We have no idea of the speed of cittas. When there are kusala cittas in a sense-door process after the sense-cognition, the same types arise in the following mind-door process, because of conditions. This is also true in the case of akusala cittas. You may be thinking in words: I go shopping today. Each portion of this sentence (as I heard on tape) is object of thinking by one round of mind-door process cittas at a time. Still, it seems a whole sentence with no breaks. Once A. sujin gave the example of: E-li-sa-beth. This proceeds in the same way. It seems we hear and think of it all at once, without a break. But we should not try to catch such different moments. Now in a dream you are thinking of stories, concepts on account of sense impressions you had before. There is no impingement of sense objects on the doorways like during the day. The thinking is most of the time with akusala cittas. When you are awake and try to recall your dreams, all such dream thoughts have gone already. There is the present moment to be known! Best wishes from Nina. op 08-08-2002 07:27 schreef jkl_california op <>: > Thanks so much for your writings. Your translations of Ajahn > Sujin's "Perfections" are especially helpful. > N: II, Ch I, on Rupa: That means, rupa> is cognized also through the mind-door. Thus we see that this is not > only in >> the Commentaries. > J: Rupa cognizable through the mind door - might this apply to all sense > phenomena we would experience in a dream, imaginatory, or > hallucinatory state? 14846 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:11am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear Larry, You ask an interesting question. When we talk about the path, or "magga", it is ultimately the 8-fold path, or satipatthana at the lokuttara level, but it is also the mundane 5-fold path, or the mundane satipatthana. This is the path in the most definitive sense. Without satipathana, regardless of how much you have listened or considered, it is still technically not a path. When we talk about bhavana, in the most definite sense, there are only two: samatha bhavana, or vipassana bhavana. Satipatthana is also bhavana at the mundane and lokuttara levels. The texts (commentaries?) also include the following activities in bhavana: 1) Listen to the dhamma 2) Explain dhamma 3) Satipatthana and samatha bhavana 4) Making one thought, memory, views straight in accordance with the dhamma kom > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. > > > Hi Kom, I'm not clear on what is the path. Would you explain that? Also, > is listening to the dhamma a bhavana? If so, what makes an activity a > bhavana? > > thanks, Larry 14847 From: TG Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will In my opinion, in the ultimate sense, there is no such thing as free will. The idea is based on an assumption that there is an entity, self, soul, person, etc that is doing the "willing." If actions unfold due to a cause, there is no way to usurp causal laws with free will outside the boundries of causality. In other words, if "my" actions are due to causes, how can "I" have a decision? In a conventional sense, within the framework of delusion, there is freewill. And this is the way free will is usually interpreted in this group from what I have read. TG 14848 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:05am Subject: Re: Free Will Hi Robert, I starting writing a follow-up message to my first posting (to give the full quote from BB) and I heard my name being called over the airport paging system (I was very late for my flight). Sorry for the brusque tone of that cut-off message. It will take me a few days to reply to this message. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > > This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I > want > > to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". > > > Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your > > comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the > main > > course that is coming later). > ___________________________________ > Dear RobM, > I paste some comments I made in 2 old letters, they are a little off > the point but I'm happy to add more anytime. > > Someone wrote to me a while back who > feels that no control is a dangerous idea.They wanted to stress > control and volitional intention > which is what they believe that Buddha really taught > and they feel uncontrollabilty to be a pernicious > belief leading to apathy. > > "I have a choice whether to get angry in the present > moment." the writer said."this is new kamma". > > I replied: > Yes, the processes of cittas during anger are new > kamma. However, they are > also conditioned. The Patthana, the last and most > important book of the > Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24 > paccaya (conditions). > Some of which are past and some present. But even the > present ones do not > simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because > "I" want them to. The > processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and > there is no "person" > who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even > the cittas that are > arising at this moment are conditioned by previous > cittas as well as well as > by other conditions that are present at the same time. > This is not the place > to go into details but it is well worth studying the > Patthana. It gives us a > glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom > of the Buddha. > > They further wrote that "we are not just > helpless automata acting out our old kamma - that is > absurd. > I hope the above helps overcome the despair that comes > from the belief that we are a slave to our > conditioning." > > I said "This sounds like the debates that western > Philosophy used to have (and still > does) about Free-will versus Determinism. > The Buddha's analysis of the world is neither, it is > the middle path. Thus > the statement about "we being helpless automata acting > out our old kamma" > misses the point. There is no "we" to be anything. And > kamma is not the only > condition. > Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the > deep teachings on anatta, > are a condition for understanding. This understanding > leads to energy: > energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the > study and practice of > vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that > will gladly keep > developing understanding moment after moment, life > after life, aeon after > aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if > understanding grows then there > will be detachment from the idea of self and of > control. Then there is no > more despair about the path - because "I" have been > taken out of the > equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that > we want to be happy, > get enlightened , whatever. Then, as the > Visuddhimagga says, > 'there is a path but no one on the path'." > > This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is > not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in > one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in > another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it > is itself conditioned. > What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the > Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of > merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). Why are we so > interested in Dhamma? Why isn't the leader of the Taliban > interested; surely he makes effort, surely he has the intention > to do what is best? Why do some people hear Dhamma but find it > unappealing while others can't get enough even after hearing it > just once? Why are some initially not interested and then later > they get interested and surpass in understanding those who > studied much longer? It is clear that there must be reasons for > all this; and the Dhamma explains it all. > > You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except > nibbana > > are > > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then > > thinking one > > can develop anything seems like an exercise in > > micchaditthi.... > > _________________ > Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the > idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self > view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good > intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees > the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that > arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into > self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or > towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done. > > ____________________________ > > > > > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for > > lack of a > > better f-word) "fate"? "" > __________________ > Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did > this that or the other nothing would make a thread of > difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing > would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not > get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the > Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions. > It is true that some are past conditions but there are also > present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism > and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who > can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way > and is neither. > When we hear a teacher say "develop it" this can be a > condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on > the understanding of the listener. > Robert 14849 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will Hi all, some things to consider: 1. From "Buddhist Dictionary": Cetana: 'volition', will, is one of the seven mental factors (cetasika) inseparably bound up with all consciousness... 2. If there is no willing because there is no will-er, is there no suffering because there is no suffer-er? 3. There are (at least) two kinds of freedom: freedom FROM, and freedom TO. Freedom FROM *could* be freedom from the asavas. If so, couldn't an arahat display free will? Clearly freedom TO has a very limited scope. If it were unlimited then the Buddha would be free to enlighten all beings; but he isn't. 4. What exactly is volition? Larry 14850 From: azita gill Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in Life --- kenhowardau wrote: > Christine, > > There is no obligation to discover the meaning of > life. There is no need to `do worthwhile things.' > > There is only the present moment in which nama and > rupa rise and fall away. > > Kind regards > Ken H > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the > real nature of > > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel > any closer to this > > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how > does Abhidhamma > > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems > to me to have > the > > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems > to emhasise the > > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly > pointless .... > > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be > another way of > > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of > doing something > > worthwhile - > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Dear Christine and Kenh, < I'd like to add to this: we are stuck with whatever we are, no amount of trying will change us - i.e. the wrong trying. In a sense there can be trying but trying is not self. At the moment of trying there is only trying, nothing else!!! < At the moment of seeing, there is only seeing, nothing else!!! no self. Just be patient, be brave and be cheerful, what else is there to do? < May all beings be happy, < Azita. 14851 From: TG Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will Free Will vs Will? These are two different things. When it is said there is no free will, it does not mean there is no will. Will is not apart from conditionality...free will would have to be or it wouldn't be free. TG 14852 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will Hi TG, thinking about it some more, I agree. There could be will free from asavas or free from lobha or free from alobha, but there isn't any will free from conditionality, not even an arahat's. This raises the question what is the difference between conditionality and determinism. I would say there is no difference _if_ we say there is determining but no determined one. Larry 14853 From: azita gill Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will --- <> wrote: > Hi all, some things to consider: > > 1. From "Buddhist Dictionary": Cetana: 'volition', > will, is one of the > seven mental factors (cetasika) inseparably bound up > with all > consciousness... > > 2. If there is no willing because there is no > will-er, is there no > suffering because there is no suffer-er? > > 3. There are (at least) two kinds of freedom: > freedom FROM, and freedom > TO. Freedom FROM *could* be freedom from the asavas. > If so, couldn't an > arahat display free will? Clearly freedom TO has a > very limited scope. > If it were unlimited then the Buddha would be free > to enlighten all > beings; but he isn't. > > 4. What exactly is volition? > > Larry > > dear Larry, according to Visuddimagga XIV,135, concerning cetana [volition]: 'it wills, thus it is volition [cetana]; it collects/coordinates is the meaning; its characteristic is the state of willing. Its function is to 'accumulate' [ayuhana]. It is manifested as coordinating.....' < you can see by this explantion that it manifests as coordinating, by willing to do, but it is not 'me' that coordinates, that is the key, for me anyway. there is the reality of willing, coordinating, but that's all there is at that moment - not me, not mine, not myself. < may all beings be happy, < Azita, > > > > 14854 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:21am Subject: Re: Free Will Hello TG, may I jump in? If I promise not to stay ;-) >If actions unfold due to a cause, >there is no way to usurp causal laws with free will outside the boundaries of >causality. In other words, if "my" actions are due to causes, how can "I" >have a decision? In two senses. First, it's 'your' free decision to do something just in case you wanted to do it; this in contrast to someone forcing you to do the same action (say by some threat or manipulation), or it occurring for some solely biological reason (say a seizure). Free versus involuntary. >Will is not apart from conditionality...free >will would have to be or it wouldn't be free. (from a second post — hope I'm not distorting your meaning by chopping up your posts) Will apart from conditionality would just be randomness, which clearly isn't freewill; just something that happens out of the blue. One un/skillfully causes actions; they must be part of conditionality (caused) to be free. Causal laws include the psychological (citta niyama), no usurpation (of physics?) is required. Second, this presumes that causes are determining, but (IMHO) they are merely conditioning. "These patterns of events [all forms of causality] are neither deterministic nor indeterministic but present themselves as probable tendencies rather than inevitable consequences. "Though man's actions may be conditioned by some of these laws he is not determined by any one of them. In general the Buddha opposed all forms of determinism, whether natural determinism (svabhava-vada), theistic determinism (issara-karana-vada), karmic determinism (pubbekata-hetuvada), or any other philosophy in which these facets may be combined. In general the Buddhist theory of causation offers a via media between the extremes of determinism and indeterminism. According to strict determinism the present and the past are unalterable, but the Buddha upholds a concept of free will according to which an individual may to a certain extent control the dynamic forces of the past and present and also the course of future events. Man has free will (attakara) and personal endeavor (purisa kara) and is capable of changing both himself and his environment." Padmasiri de Silva, An Introduction to Buddhist Psychology, p.6-7. Which is what Bhikkhu Bodhi said. (In my view the conventional 'self' is enough of a 'self,' as it were, to freely will actions, within the context of our conditioning, and thereby generate kamma, i.e., create the conditions for further actions.) (I've never been able to understand Robert's view. Hopefully he'll talk about seeing rather than doing, which I suspect is somehow the key. But seeing is also conditioned, and freely chosen, or...) metta, stephen 14855 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will Dear Azita, this is very interesting. Thanks for posting it. I wonder what "its function is to accumulate" means. I guess it means it creates accumulations, but not for arahats. One thing about Robert K's correspondent's point that this teaching could condition passivity and irresponsibility, this teaching itself comes about because of willing and therefore creates accumulations. Kusala teachings could create akusala accumulations if misunderstood. Larry 14856 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 0:50pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi Kom, I still don't understand: 1. What is the mundane 5 fold path? 2. How can the 8 fold path be lokuttara? Doesn't lokuttara mean nibbana? How can nibbana be a path to nibbana? 3. What is the function of bhavana? 4. How many ways of explaining the path are there? I know 8-fold path, path of purification, and sila, samadhi & panna. Larry 14857 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:28pm Subject: Re: Free Will --- <> wrote: > (In my view the conventional 'self' is enough of a 'self,' as it were, to freely will actions, within the context of our conditioning, and thereby generate kamma, i.e., create the conditions for further actions.) (I've never been able to understand Robert's view. Hopefully he'll talk about seeing rather than doing, which I suspect is somehow the key. But seeing is also conditioned, and freely chosen, or...) metta, stephen _______________________ Dear Stephen, RobM, Larry, TG and all, Welcome to the list Stephen, hope you will stay; and good to have you back in time to help on this difficult aspect of Dhamma, TG. I paste some more comments from earlier letters. There is no fixed determination and everything is possible and can happen - but only by the correct conditions. It is wisdom, understanding - panna - a conditioned , mental phenomena that has the function of seeing rightly and it comes with detachment. It is not a self. Intention, cetana, arises all the time but it too is not a self, it is conditioned. Where did our wish and intention to learn about Dhamma come from? It was because of hearing Dhamma and so wisdom is conditioned by this and the intention to hear more strengthens, the intention cannot grow from nothing. Some people hear Dhamma and it means nothing to them. Why? Different tendencies, also conditioned. All types of kusala; giving, sila, samatha can be successfully developed with sakkya ditthi (self view) still intact - all types except vipassana. Thus it is only when we want to understand the path of insight that such ideas as 'freewill' hinder. The Buddha taught about the five khandhas , the elements, the ayatanas, so that we could begin to see what really exists. And what exists is evanescent, conditioned phenomenena, no person. But thinking about it can't break up the idea of self and control; it is only by direct insight that takes any of these dhammas as an object that the (mis)perception of a whole, a person is erased. It seems like 'we' can control and do as we wish, but this is an illusion that is at the heart of the self view; as the different elements are resolved the 'whole' is found to be concept and instead there is a complex concantenation of conditioned dhammas with no controller or overlord, anywhere. Resolution into the component parts is an antidote to the wrong idea of a self that exists and is somehow directing this conglomerate of namas and rupas. It is like a butcher; when he takes the whole cow he thinks 'this is a cow'. But by the time he has skinned, chopped , cut, boned, diced, sliced and minced the carcase that idea of "cow" is gone. When we think of intention and choice and being able to control, this is thinking and it is not understanding the nature of cetana, intention, as a momentary phenomena -it cannot last even for a split second, nor can any feelings or consciousness. We have much ignorance about dhammas, they have to be known directly. But if we overestimate the role of intention the knowing is likely to be tied up with craving - and then the links of the Paticcasamuppada are strenghtened. I believe the knowing and investigation should be with detachment otherwise self slips in and distorts. Effort is often "self effort", but right effort is not obtrusive, it is associated with seeing rather than doing, it can feel almost effortless. Robert 14858 From: TG Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will Hi Larry Determinism seems to me to indicate that there is "something" determining, or some sort of plan. I think conditionality is apart from determinism and free will. I think insight into conditionality should free the mind from these types of views. TG 14859 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Howard Thanks for explaining in detail your position on phenomenalism. I would question whether having a 'position' on this (or indeed any) issue is of any benefit as regards developing an understanding of how things truly are. Is it not rather a hindrance? Unless a view is the result of the direct experience of presently arising dhammas then, regardless of whether it ‘accords with reality’ or not, it is 'fabricated' or ‘formed’ and is likely in the words of the passage quoted by Anders (to Sarah) to be grasped at and entrenched. --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - << The phenomenalist and pragmatist ask how this [i.e., that rupas do arise at times other than when they are the object of consciousness] is to be known.>> However, no such question arises for the student of the dhamma, since the issue is seen as having no direct bearing on the discernment of the true nature of the presently appearing dhamma. <> In terms of the teachings, this is pure ‘fabricated view’, as I understand the context. This of course allows the person to defing his terms (like "existence" here) in a way that begs the position he holds. Just to keep us on track here, the question you posed in the first place was whether the Abhidhamma countenances the existence of non-animate rupas not presently the object of consciousness. On my reading of the texts, the answer to that question is a definite 'yes'. Now, whether that would put the Abhidhamma and phenomenalism in accord with each other is another question entirely, and not one that I feel able to comment on. <<... The fact that rupas arise in (sequential) groups doesn't attest to their externality but only to relations among them and to lawfulness of experience. >> When I said that the abhidhamma speaks of rupas arising in groups, I meant arising contemporaneously, not sequentially (unlike, say, cittas which arise in sequential ‘groups’ called processes). These groups of rupas are called kalapas. There is no kalapa of rupas with less than 8 rupas. See the entry from Nyanatiloka's Dictionary pasted below. Thus, according to the Abhidhamma, whenever say visible object is the object of consciousness there are at least 7 other rupas also arising that are not, and could never be, the object of the same moment of consciousness. << [On paticca-samuppada,] I accept no non-animate rupas existing independently of the experience of sentient beings, actual or possible (in the sense that I have previously outlined). They do exist, but in this dependent manner as I see it. To my understanding, the paticca-samuppada doesn't say or posit anything in particular about non-animate rupas existing independently of the experience of sentient beings, or their dependence on other realities. Jon ----------------------- Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' rúpa-kalápa: 'corporeal group', material unit, designates a combination of several physical phenomena constituting a temporary unity. Thus, for instance, the so-called 'dead matter' forms the most primitive group, consisting only of 8 physical phenomena, called the 'pure eightfold unit' or 'octad' (suddhatthakakalápa), to wit: the 4 elements (the solid, fluid, heat, motion); colour, smell, taste, nutriment (pathaví, ápo, tejo, váyo; vanna, gandha, rasa, ojá). [In Vis.M., and elsewhere, it is also called ojatthamaka-kalápa, 'the octad with nutriment as the 8th factor'.] The simplest form of living matter is the '9-fold vitality unit' or 'life-ennead' (jívita-navaka-kalápa), formed by adding 'vitality' to the octad. Seven decades, or units of ten (dasaka-kalápa), are formed by adding to the 9-fold unit one of the following corporeal phenomena: heart (physical seat of mind), sex, eye, ear, nose, tongue or body. [See Vis.M. XVIII, 4; Compendium of Buddhist Philosophy (PTS), p. 164, 250;Atthasálini Tr., II, 413f.] ----------------------- ----------------------- > Finally, a question that has been puzzling me about this > discussion. You have pointed out on a number of occasions that > things not presently experienced are `unknowable'. On what > basis then do you assert that these unknowable things do not > exist? It seems to me that if something is unknowable, its non- > existence can no more be asserted than its existence. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct. Some pure phenomenalists would agree, and would put "unknowable objects" into an existential limbo. It is is a "don't know" or noncommital position, and is admittedly quite reasonable. Phenomenalism combined with a pragmatism often says that what is in principle unknowable is as good as nonexistent, and it opts for complete nonexistence of unknowable objects. The extreme of this is idealism and even solipsism. But phenomenalism + pragmatism + a scientific, causality-oriented inclination (or the Dhamma, which countenences multiple namarupic streams as well as conditionality), accepts existence *also* in the form of experience of a dhamma by other sentient beings and as the lawful potentiality for the conditioned arising of a dhamma. It is this latter position that is mine, and which William James comes quite close to as well. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > ============================= With metta, Howard 14860 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 2:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, fourth tetrad. Dear Nina, Thank you so much for this very valuable discussion. Though I might talk in different terminology than some of what you say below, it is still understandable to me and contains very helpful details. Of course, to understand them properly would require more homework on my part, but I am happy to understand as much as I can from what you have written. I have interspersed some comments below: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > I shall go into your points below. > op 07-08-2002 06:19 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > > > R: I would like to add that aside from tranquility, my understanding > is that a > > major > > attainment of jhana is concentration. In jhana the mind is one-pointed until > > the > > distinction between subject-object is extinguished and there is no sense of > > separate self. In the case of someone who still has seeds of self, this may > > be a > > suppression rather than a final attainment, but jhana imitates and also sets > > as > > foundation for the eradication of self-concept > > Nina: As to no distinction between subject-object, I try to understand: you > probably mean: just the meditation subject is experienced and one does not > think of a subject who experiences? yes, no experience of a self experiencing, just the experience. although that does not mean that there is not 'awareness' of the fact that the object is being experienced, which is what I think of as mindfulness, but no sense that there is 'someone' experiencing it. > I think that it is important to have more clarity about the object > experienced by jhanacitta and the object experienced by insight. > When the object of samatha is breath, the meditator should begin to pay > attention to breath where it touches the nosetip or upperlip, see Vis. Rupas > such as hardness or heat are appearing, but the goal in Samatha is not > knowing their true nature, but the goal is calm by means of this subject, to > be free from akusala, from the hindrances. Also in samatha, one needs sati > and panna, how otherwise could one know when there is subtle clinging to the > pleasant sensation while following his breathing in and out, a sensation of > wellbeing, and being without the worries or agitation daily life is bound up > with? If he does not realize the difference between pure kusala citta and > subtle clinging, he may believe that sensuous desire, one of the hindrances, > is suppressed, but instead of coarse covetousness he still has subtle > clinging to calm, thus there is still that hindrance. I would think that developing the ability to discern clinging makes a decisive difference in every aspect of the path. > When he makes progress with his development, the nimitta, the sign appears, > Vis. VIII, 214, 217. This sign or image is not a nama or rupa, a paramattha > dhamma or ultimate reality. And the goal is calm, not right understanding of > a nama or rupa appearing now through one of the six doors. In the beginning > there is a learning sign and when calm is more developed a counterpart sign > appears. He reaches access and absorption. Thus, the object of the > jhanacitta is a nimitta, a sign. > If he also wants to develop insight he attaining mastery in the five ways> ( VIII, 222, and IV, 131). > Among these are entering into jhana and emerging from it whenever one wants > to. When one has entered and then emerged, insight can be developed. First > and this is the first stage of tender insight > knowledge. We read VIII, 223-224 about the following stages of insight up to > arahatship. He sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the body and > the mind as their origin. He defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the > body as rupa and the citta and cetasikas as nama. Here we have to be > careful: he is not mindful of the body as a whole, but of rupas of the body > as they appear one at a time. just curious: how does this harmonize with the Buddha's stanzas in the anapanasati sutta on being mindful of 'the whole body' while breathing? Is it a different sort of situation with the jhanas or is this a contradiction? More about this later on in the Co to the > anapasati sutta. We read about the second stage of tender insight: realizing > conditions for the arising of nama and of rupa, and so on for all stages. > When we read about the three characteristics, we have to remember that these > are the three characteristics of paramattha dhammas, of one nama or rupa as > it appears one at a time through one of the six doorways. The Vis. mentions > the impermanence of the five khandhas, see below in the fourth tetrad. These > are nothing else but one nama or rupa as it appears one at a time through > one of the six doorways. In the course of the development of insight the > nama or rupa which appears can be realized as impermanent, or as dukkha, or > as non-self, but only when insight has been progressively developed, stage > by stage. > Now you could check for yourself whether the characteristic of non-self can > be realized during the moments of jhanacitta which has a nimitta as object, > or at the moments of cittas of the sensesphere, cittas which are accompanied > by sati and panna and have as object a paramattha dhamma as it appears in > daily life. > > Now we go on to the fourth tetrad. When reading the Co to the Anapana sati > sutta I see that it refers to all these passages of the Visuddhimagga and > partly repeats them. Thus we are going to need them later on. > > (XIII) He trains thus 3I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence2; he > trains thus 3I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence2. (XIV) He > trains thus 3I shall breathe in contemplating fading away2; he trains thus > 3I shall breathe out contemplating fading away2. (XV) He trains thus 3I > shall breathe in contemplating cessation2; he trains thus 3I shall breathe > out contemplating cessation2. (XVI) He trains thus 3I shall breathe in > contemplating relinquishment2; he trains thus 3I shall breathe out > contemplating relinquishment2. > > As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, 3(XIII) I shall breathe in... > breathe out contemplating impermanence2, the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) > states: > > Œ ... Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, > or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the > break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they > do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is > contemplation of materiality, etc., as 3impermanent2 in virtue of that > impermanence...1 > > Further on the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, > > ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with > serenity and insight.1 > > As regards the clause: 3(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out > contemplating fading away2, the Visuddhimagga states that there are two > kinds of fading away, namely: 3fading away as destruction2 which is the > 3momentary dissolution of formations2 (conditioned realities) and 3absolute > fading away2 which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: > > Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur > as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold > contemplation that it can be understood of him 3He trains thus, I shall > breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away.2 1 > when one contemplates the fading away that is nibbana, is this contemplating an object that is not there, since I assume he is not in the presence of nibbana? is it thus conceptual in nature? > The same method of explanation is applied to the clause 3contemplating > cessation2. And with regard to the clause (XVI) 3contemplating > relinquishment2, the Visuddhimagga states: > > 3relinquishment is of two kinds too, that is to say, relinquishment as > giving up, and relinquishment as entering into.2 > > 3Giving up2 is the giving up of defilements, and 3entering into2 is the > entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. Also this clause pertains > to insight alone. Again, is Nibbana the present object of this citta, or is it contemplation of the concept or idea of Nibbana in this case? Best, Robert Ep. 14861 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Hi Frank, I note my reply still didn’t pass the ‘monumental rant’ test;-) I think we’ve also discussed ‘this vipallasa system’ before...;-) --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Yes, all are agreed that VIEWS (dithi) are eradicated > for all stages of sainthood. The main problem I"m > having is (according to the chart, and what Robert > checked on teh translations) all 4 levels have Anatta > penetrated at the aspects of S,C,D (perception, citta, > dithi). So if citta antta is penetrated, and sanna > anatta penetrated for ALL 4 STAGES, that to me sounds > like complete enlightenement, complete understanding > of anatta. ..... What it means is no more ‘perversion’ of mind, perception or view regarding anatta. It means there is no more unwholesome state of mind with regard to any idea of being. There may still be clinging to the elements, to the namas and rupas with conceit and these may still be compared to another’s as being better. equal or less, but no wrong view or other idea of a being. There have been many discussions on DSG about the use of conventional terms, such as ‘being’, ‘animal’, ‘table’ by enlightened ‘beings’. There is no perversion of idea of self, however. Ray H. wrote the following in May: ..... “The other evidence we have about speaking conventally when talking about self-control, etc comes from the Suttas themselves. In the Connected Discourse, "A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya" by Bhikkhu Bodhi we read on page102 #64 "No knots exist for one with conceit abandoned; For him all knots of conceit are consumed. Though the wise one has transcended the conceived, He still might say, 'I speak,' He might say too, 'They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions." “ ***** None of this is meant to suggest that the sotapanna’s ‘job’ is done. There are still many unwholesome states and panna has to be developed on and on, deeper and deeper, until all defilements are eradicated. > One who has complete penetration of anatta is not > going to be confused about dukkha and subha. ..... Frank, I think there is a difference between confusion and doubt about the nature of realities (eradicated by sotapattimagga also) and attachment. Let me requote this extract from ADL: ***** From: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 5, paragraphs 20-22 20. Since lobha is rooted so deeply, it can only be eradicated in different stages. Ditthi has to be eradicated first and then the other kinds of attachment can be eradicated. The sotapanna (the person who has realized the first stage of enlightenment) has eradicated ditthi; he has developed the wisdom which realizes that all phenomena are nama and rupa, not self. Since he has eradicated ditthi, the lobha-mula-cittas with ditthi do not arise any more. As we have seen, four types of lobha-mula-citta arise with ditthi (they are ditthigata-sampayutta) and four types arise without ditthi (they are ditthigata-vippayutta). As for the sotapanna, the four types of lobha-mula-citta without ditthi still arise; he has not yet eradicated all kinds of attachment. The sotapanna still has conceit. Conceit can arise with the four types of lobha-mula-citta which are without ditthi (ditthigata-vippayutta). There may be conceit when one compares oneself with others, when one, for example, thinks that one has more wisdom than others. When we consider ourselves better, equal or less in comparison with others we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. When we think ourselves less than someone else it is not necessarily kusala; there may still be a kind of upholding of ourselves and then there is conceit. Conceit is rooted so deeply that it is eradicated only when one has become an arahat. 21. The person who has realized the second stage of enlightenment, the sakadagami (once-returner), has less lobha than the sotapanna. The person who realized the third stage of enlightenment, the anagami (never-returner), has no more clinging to the objects which present themselves through the five senses, but he still has conceit and he clings to rebirth. The arahat has eradicated lobha completely. 22. The arahat is completely free since he has eradicated all defilements. ***** > > Sarah, I understand from your explanation how whoever > devised this vipallasa system uses it to try to > explain the differnence between arhat and non-returner > by showing how the subtle feeling of conceit present > in the non-returner is in the subtle misperception of > dukkha, and in a way that sort of makes sense, BUT: > > The 3 marks + subha are not independent mutually > exclusive entities. Sanna, citta, do not arise > independently of one another. You can not peg > sainthood into these neat categories like someone > trying to complete a baseball card collection by > checking off independent pieces. Every moment of > reality does not consist of independent pieces of > anicca, dukkha, anatta that need to be understood > separately. It's all just different aspects of the > same moment of reality. If you completely penetrate > the nature of anatta, you've also completely > penetrated dukkha and anicca. ..... When we talk about the citta and sanna vipallasa of the anagami, it is not a misperception in the sense of any view, but unwholesome citta and sanna ‘marking’, accompanied by ignorance or lobha. I agree with you about the interdependent pieces. Dukkha can only be fully comprehended when the realities are seen as anatta and anicca. That which is not self, cannot be ‘willed’ . That reality which is impermanent is inherently unsatisfactory. We come to the 4 Noble Truths -- only by understanding the nature of dukkha and the cause of it, can the Path be realized in the 4 stages of enlightenment, even though all misconceptions are eradicated at the first stage. ..... > ^ the above paragraph is my diplomatic way of saying > the vipallasa system is completely lame and > misleading. It seems like a feeble attempt to break > down the concept of wisdom and quantify it in terms of > more constituent basic units, but instead it just > confounds. > > It's times like this I seriously wonder if abidhamma > is legitimate buddhism. It seems like they try to > break things down into minute detail to deepen > understanding, but then are forced to construct even > more detail and more awkward nuances in an attempt to > explain away logical inconsistencies. ..... Hey, Frank. sounds like a conspiracy by ‘they’ to totally befuddle us and trigger off rants;-) We know that a lot of the precise detail can only be found in the Abhidhamma and we only need to consider those aspects that are helpful to us at the present time, (just as in astanga yoga there are parts of a ‘Series’ that have to be left for the time being, as I found out this morning when I took a class at the brand new Astanga centre here;-)). As you know, the vipallasas are mentioned (if occasionally) in the suttas. This is from an earlier post of mine to you in fact;-) ***** “Attachment to sense objects is so pernicious. The anagami has no more of this kind of attachment but still has (very subtle) attachment for other objects such as bhava (becoming), kusala citta or samadhi. The only perversions the anagami still has are sanna and citta vipallasa with regard to finding pleasure in the painful (i.e. finding sukkha in dukkha) which is only eradicated by the arahat. (Vism XX11,68). Let me add a quote from B.Bodhi’s translation of ‘Distortions of Perception, AN, 1V, 61 with useful reminders of how ‘mentally deranged’ we are: “Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, And who see in the foul the mark of beauty - Such folk resort to distorted views, mentally deranged, subject to illusions. Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, They are still far from the secure state. Such beings wander through the painful round And go repeatedly from birth to death. But when the Buddhas appear in the world, The makers of light in a mass of darkness, They reveal this Teaching,the noble Dhamma, That leads to the end of suffering. When people with wisdom listen to them, They at last regain their sanity. They see the impermanent as impermanent, And they see suffering just as suffering. They see the selfless as void of self, And in the foul they see the foul. By this acceptance of right view, They overcome all suffering.” “ ********** Frank, I’ll also leave you with this helpful Nyantiloka dictionary entry for mana (conceit) after signing off, which Christine included in a useful post on mana. It indicates how the 20kinds of personality belief are eradicated at the first stage, while the ‘end of suffering’ and the full penetration of conceit is only at the 4th stage. I don’t think the analysis of the vipallasa are in contradiction to the suttas, but understanding the remaining very subtle kilesa of an anagami is almost incomprehensible to us, so I appreciate the difficulty. Let me know how we're doing with the baseball (or rather vipallasa) cards;-) Sarah http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm mána: 'conceit', pride, is one of the 10 fetters binding to existence (s. samyojana). It vanishes completely only at the entrance to Arahatship, or Holiness (cf. asmi-mána). It is further one of the proclivities (s. anusaya) and defilements (s. kilesa). The (equality- ) conceit (mána), the inferiority-conceit (omána) and the superiority- conceit (atimána): this threefold conceit should be overcome. For, after overcoming this threefold conceit, the monk, through the full penetration of conceit, is said to have put an end suffering" (A. VI, 49)."Those ascetics and brahman priests who, relying on this impermanent, miserable and transitory nature of corporeality, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness, fancy: 'Better am I', or 'Equal am I', or 'Worse am I', all these imagine thus through not understanding reality" (S. XXII, 49).In reality no ego-entity is to be found. Cf. anattá. sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.): (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations or consciousness; (6-10) to be contained in them; (11-15) to be independent of them; (16-20) to be the owner of them (M. 44; S. XXII. 1). See prec., ditthi, upádána 4. *********************************************************************** 14862 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:28pm Subject: Free Welcome (was: Free Will) Hi Stephen, --- <> wrote: > Hello TG, may I jump in? If I promise not to stay ;-) My goodness, you sound like a real gate-crasher;-) Glad you’ve taken the plunge and a big welcome. You’ve obviously considered very carefully and read widely, Stephen. I’m very glad to read your ideas and I think it’s a very important area of discussion that really is at the heart of the Teachings (I say that quite often, mind.....). If you’d care to say a little about yourself here (for those who are not so familiar with your reputation), we’d all appreciate that too. Hope you can stay to continue keeping Rob K and the rest of us on our toes;-) Sarah ===== 14863 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:32pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > > Hi Kom, I still don't understand: > > 1. What is the mundane 5 fold path? The commentaries explains the 8-fold path as two: as the 8-fold path (lokkutara, at the point of attainment [magga and phala], the citta & cetasikas are said to be lokkutara), and the 5-fold path (mundane satipatthana, not magga nor phala). > > 2. How can the 8 fold path be lokuttara? Doesn't > lokuttara mean nibbana? > How can nibbana be a path to nibbana? There are 9 lokuttara dhammas: the 4 magga, the 4 phala, and nibbana. > > 3. What is the function of bhavana? Bhavana is development. Vipassana is development of panna that penetrates the true characteristics of the 4 sacca (eventually), and samatha is the development of calm. > > 4. How many ways of explaining the path are > there? I know 8-fold path, > path of purification, and sila, samadhi & panna. > There is also, dana, sila, and bhavana. As any realities, there are probably infinite number of way to describe the path, although in meaning, there is only one (lokuttara 8-fold, ultimately, and the mundane 5-fold). kom 14864 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness for Children Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > One of my students in my Abhidhamma class sent me a link to a site > with provides tools to teach mindfulness to children. > > http://www.mindfulnessclasses.com/tucsonet/bilby/kindergarten.htm > > Don't be fooled by the title, this is not just for kindergarten > kids - I really liked the graphics for thinking and egolessness. ..... I think that between yourself and Christine, the internet resources must have been fully covered by now;-) Yes, I’m not sure how well the kindergarten kids I know would go with some of the concepts involved. One question I have with this site and some of the other materials, is that they seem a lot more related to a conventional idea we have about mindfulness than to sati (mindfulness) accompanying sila, dana or bhavana. Of course, with small children, we are not going to be having chats about satipatthana and it’s only very occasionally that this is possible with an older child. Really, whatever we teach children or whatever discussions we have, will reflect our own understanding of the Teachings. And so, my reservations about pin-pointing parts of the body or checking sounds and lights, would be similar to my reservations about a similar meditation practice for adults. It’s not that I doubt these practices have any value (I’m sure they have), but I question their inclusion under ‘vipassana’ or ‘sati’. On the otherhand, I think it’s really great that your kids attend your talks. I don’t think the value can be underestimated (especially if it is by their own ‘free will’;-)) Maybe you could even try asking them for ideas or for views on what would work for other kids to help them participate more. I’m aware that I may be sounding rather negative about some helpful practical suggestions others have given you. Let me add a few suggestions, therefore; Bedtime ritual: ========== I like the idea of this special time for reading, discussion and consideration for kids. Reading of stories with dicussion about the morals and the characters, about the rights and wrongs...... Following on from the ‘Practical Metta’ points, prhaps they can think about/talk about ‘good deeds’ or ‘kind words’ done during the day to others and then maybe about ‘good deeds’ done by parents, teachers and other people. Perhaps ‘good deeds’ or ‘ways to make others happy’ for tomorrow could be considered afterwards. (Actually, I often find myself thinking like this as I go to sleep - maybe there could be 5 of each for a child if one wants a ‘routine’.) Reading & Discussion ================ Reading, discussing, exploring, questioning, encouraging kids to really consider rather than to just follow. Sometimes I’ll read a story, say a Jataka, then ask the older kids to write a summary and give the moral. Then we’ll look at the moral given and compare and consider the other ones (often just as suitable). I may ask the kids to write the next part of the story or elaborate on it. Or else I may use conventional and school texts, such as ‘Macbeth’ but give interesting topics for discussion or essay writing that really lead to an analysis of the real causes of dukkha (i.e the kilesa -- defilements) and the futility of wealth as being any panacea (very relevant in Hong Kong). When the kids choose their own books and give summaries, we’ll always have a chat about the morals and so on. Bottom line - everyone has to follow their own interest and we can only provide opportunities for hearing and considering what is useful. Finally, I really liked the discussion you had w/Chris on Ananda. I particularly liked the quote she gave, showing the Buddha’s compassion when Ananda was weeping as the Buddha was about to pass away. The comments Chief Reverend gave on this would also be relevant to the teaching of children, I think: “Chief explained that the Buddha had the unique talent of being able to see the defilements remaining in a person's mind. This did not give the Buddha the power to enlighten people, but rather allowed the Buddha to suggest appropriate actions. The following of the Buddha's advice (and therefore the achievement of enlightenment) was up to the individual. For example, Devatattha routinely ignored the Buddha's advice, and this stopped him from getting enlightenment. In the case on Ananda, the defilement remaining in him was his strong attachment to the Buddha..... “ ***** In other words, we can guide or make suggestions according to our understanding and the rest will be up to the accumulations of the child and other conditions. The most helpful way to help others is the development of our ‘own’ understanding. Thanks again. Sarah ===== 14865 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/10/02 2:50:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for explaining in detail your position on phenomenalism. > > I would question whether having a 'position' on this (or indeed any) issue > is of any benefit as regards developing an understanding of how things > truly are. Is it not rather a hindrance? Unless a view is the result of > the direct experience of presently arising dhammas then, regardless of > whether it ‘accords with reality’ or not, it is 'fabricated' or ‘formed’ > and is likely in the words of the passage quoted by Anders (to Sarah) to > be grasped at and entrenched. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that if my view/position were entrenched it would be very much of a hindrance. I don't think that is the case. It is merely my current perspective (and admittedly has been for a while). I recognize that it could be in error. At this point I find it useful, and I seem to find it in some of the suttas spoken by the Buddha (as do some other Buddhists such as Bhikkhu ~Nanananda and, to a lesser extent, Dr. Peter Harvey). Interestingly (perhaps) this has been a recent topic on another Buddhist list. In a recent post of mine there, I admitted to the possibility of "external" somethings-or-other which could serve as the basis for our "internal" rupic perceptions. What I wrote in this regard, to quote from a piece of one post of mine is as follows: ******************************* I tend to view unexperienced arammana as potentialities, being such due to certain conditions having already arisen (in fact, probably *being* nothing more than the fact that those conditions already arose, leaving traces in various mindstreams) and "awaiting" the arising of other appropriate conditions for their arising as actualities - somewhat similar to the fruition of kamma. To me, this is actually more "realistic" than countenancing the existence of such rupas as unobserved hardness, softness, warmth, redness, etc. However, I can certainly *conceive* of "something" existing but unobserved which is the *basis* for observed rupas such as hardness, softness, warmth, redness, etc.. I don't rule this out unconditionally. It is just not my preferred way of looking at matters. As far as 'external' is concerned, I tend to view 'internal' and 'external' as modes of experience, with these typically applying at the pa~n~natti level of experience, the level of trees and tables (external) and of and mental images of trees and tables (internal), as opposed to the paramattha dhamma level of such things as hardness and pleasantness (which, *at that level* are only internal). Hardness sometimes seems external, but that is when it is experienced as a characteristic of, for example, a table, and not when, through vipassana, it is experienced directly, on its own. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > << The phenomenalist and pragmatist ask how this [i.e., that rupas do > arise at times other than when they are the object of consciousness] is to > be known.>> > > However, no such question arises for the student of the dhamma, since the > issue is seen as having no direct bearing on the discernment of the true > nature of the presently appearing dhamma. > > or by modern science, sometimes views existence in the following manner: > What exists is what is experienced or is able to be experienced subject to > the satisfaction of various conditions.>> > > In terms of the teachings, this is pure ‘fabricated view’, as I understand > the context. This of course allows the person to defing his terms (like > "existence" here) in a way that begs the position he holds. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I can't imagine any sort of really adequate definition of 'existence', and it is clear to me that exactly what 'existence' is is not completely evident. To me, however, "existence" implies the actuality or possibility of being experienced. But you are correct in pointing out the danger in making one's definitions fit one's preconceived views. This is, of course, what we all do all the time, and I will not claim to be immune from this disease, not even with regard to this particular matter. It is certainly possible. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Just to keep us on track here, the question you posed in the first place > was whether the Abhidhamma countenances the existence of non-animate rupas > not presently the object of consciousness. On my reading of the texts, > the answer to that question is a definite 'yes'. Now, whether that would > put the Abhidhamma and phenomenalism in accord with each other is another > question entirely, and not one that I feel able to comment on. > > <<... The fact that rupas arise in (sequential) groups doesn't attest to > their externality but only to relations among them and to lawfulness of > experience. >> > > When I said that the abhidhamma speaks of rupas arising in groups, I meant > arising contemporaneously, not sequentially (unlike, say, cittas which > arise in sequential ‘groups’ called processes). These groups of rupas are > called kalapas. There is no kalapa of rupas with less than 8 rupas. See > the entry from Nyanatiloka's Dictionary pasted below. Thus, according to > the Abhidhamma, whenever say visible object is the object of consciousness > there are at least 7 other rupas also arising that are not, and could > never be, the object of the same moment of consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, I understand. I didn't realize that these are groups of co-occurring, and not sequential, rupas. This would be a point at which Abhidhamma and the phenomenalist perspective might well diverge. Yet I read the Kalakarama Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta as expressing phenomenalism. The possible harmonizing of the two could lie in the understanding of "existence" as including the *potentiality* for being experienced as well as the actuality. But you are quite correct in pointing directly at this to highlight a very possible point of divergence. -------------------------------------------------- > > << [On paticca-samuppada,] I accept no non-animate rupas existing > independently of the experience of sentient beings, actual or possible (in > the sense that I have previously outlined). They do exist, but in this > dependent manner as I see it. > > To my understanding, the paticca-samuppada doesn't say or posit anything > in particular about non-animate rupas existing independently of the > experience of sentient beings, or their dependence on other realities. > > Jon > > ----------------------- > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > > rúpa-kalápa: > 'corporeal group', material unit, designates a combination of several > physical phenomena constituting a temporary unity. > > Thus, for instance, the so-called 'dead matter' forms the most primitive > group, consisting only of 8 physical phenomena, called the 'pure eightfold > unit' or 'octad' (suddhatthakakalápa), to wit: the 4 elements (the solid, > fluid, heat, motion); colour, smell, taste, nutriment (pathaví, ápo, tejo, > váyo; vanna, gandha, rasa, ojá). > [In Vis.M., and elsewhere, it is also called ojatthamaka-kalápa, 'the > octad with nutriment as the 8th factor'.] > > The simplest form of living matter is the '9-fold vitality unit' or > 'life-ennead' (jívita-navaka-kalápa), formed by adding 'vitality' to the > octad. Seven decades, or units of ten (dasaka-kalápa), are formed by > adding to the 9-fold unit one of the following corporeal phenomena: heart > (physical seat of mind), sex, eye, ear, nose, tongue or body. > [See Vis.M. XVIII, 4; Compendium of Buddhist Philosophy (PTS), p. 164, > 250;Atthasálini Tr., II, 413f.] > ----------------------- > ----------------------- > > > > Finally, a question that has been puzzling me about this > > discussion. You have pointed out on a number of occasions that > > things not presently experienced are `unknowable'. On what > > basis then do you assert that these unknowable things do not > > exist? It seems to me that if something is unknowable, its non- > > existence can no more be asserted than its existence. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are correct. Some pure phenomenalists would agree, and would > put "unknowable objects" into an existential limbo. It is is a "don't > know" or noncommital position, and is admittedly quite reasonable. > Phenomenalism combined with a pragmatism often says that what is in > principle unknowable is as good as nonexistent, and it opts for complete > nonexistence of unknowable objects. The extreme of this is idealism and > even solipsism. > But phenomenalism + pragmatism + a scientific, causality-oriented > inclination (or the Dhamma, which countenences multiple namarupic streams > as well as conditionality), accepts existence *also* in the form of > experience of a dhamma by other sentient beings and as the lawful > potentiality for the conditioned arising of a dhamma. It is this latter > position that is mine, and which William James comes quite close to as > well. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Jon > > > ============================= > With metta, > Howard > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14866 From: jkl_california Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Hi Sarah & Nina, Thanks for your kindness. Yes, I am based in Silicon Valley (working in high-tech) and am studying Dhamma under the tutelage of Jack and Kom. We are looking forward to Ajahn Sujin's visit next month. To avoid any confusion, feel free to use James from this point onwards. with metta, James --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Jim, > > --- jkl_california wrote: > Hi Nina, > > > > Thanks so much for your writings. Your translations of Ajahn > > Sujin's "Perfections" are especially helpful. > ..... > I'll leave your question to Nina. It's really good to see your keen > interest. I believe you are new to DSG and if so thanks for this excellent > first post and a warm welcome! > > To avoid confusion, (we have another regular, but often lurking Jim A and > used to have another Jim) you might like to be Jim K or L;-) > > If you're near San Fran, you might also be interested to liaise with Kom > to join the discussion with A.Sujin when she visits very soon. > > If you'd care to add anything further by way of an intro, we'd all be glad > to know a little more about you. > > Sarah > ===== > > > 14867 From: <> Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Nina, could we say that samatha samadhi is the beginning of understanding the three characteristics in so far as it suppresses the hindrances, craving for rupa qualities, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & remorse, and doubt? And further that this is worked toward (if not accomplished) by the discipline of onepointed focus which limits papanca and the nonclinging of tranquility? Also, what is the relationship between panna and the hindrances? Does panna only arise after nibbana? Larry 14868 From: <> Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will TG, my dictionary says that basically determinism means that everything happens with absolute inevitability. Is this the same as conditionality? Logic tells me yes, but since no one knows how kamma and accumulations (ayuhana) work there is room to doubt. Can there be choice without assuming a self? Maybe so if we say choice is made on the basis of information available, but that availability would seem to be either conditioned by previous kamma, in other words, predetermined, or random. Randomness would cancel inevitability but it wouldn't add freedom from conditionality (causes) because randomness is itself a kind of condition. Only nibbana can do that by ceasing all khandha, including cetana. In spite of all these arguments, I must say free will is certainly a useful concept, even on the Buddhist path. And, as with many Buddhist concepts, so is no free will. Larry 14869 From: <> Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:54am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Thanks Kom, what are the 5 parts of the 5-fold path? Larry 14870 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:00am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. It's the 8 minus the 3 virati: Samma-dithi (wisdom) Samma-sanggapa (attention, vitaka) Samma-vayama (energy, viriya) Samma-sati (mindfulness) Samma-samathi (one-pointedness, eggakata) The commentary mentions that in mundane satipathanna, there may be only a single virati co-arising with it, even though in lokuttara satipathanna, all 3 must co-arise with it. Also notice that vitaka, viriya, and eggakata co-arise with all kusala *and* akusala cittas. Mindfulness co-arises with all and only kusala cittas, and wisdom co-arises with only *some* kusala cittas. The Buddha also mentioned micha-magga (the wrong 8-fold path) in both the Sutta and Abhidhamma (probably in vineyya as well). When this occurs, the 5 above become as followed: Micha-ditthi (wrong view, wrong understanding, etc.) Micha-sanggapa (wrong attention, vitaka) Micha-vayama (wrong energy, viriya) Micha-sati (wrong mindfulness, lobha --> ***Note well***) Micha-samathi (wrong one-pointedness, eggakata). Micha-magga leads to micha-vimutti (wrong release). Believing that one is already released is easy, we already have the base (attachment and ignorance) to believe in the thing that we want to believe in. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 12:55 PM > Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris > in daily life. > > > Thanks Kom, what are the 5 parts of the 5-fold path? > > Larry > 14871 From: <> Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:00am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Thanks Kom, very interesting. I didn't quite understand micha-sati. Is there lobha with this eventhough it arises only with kusala cittas? Could we call it micha-sanna? Larry 14872 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Weekend at Cooran Dear Group, It was a wonderful Dhamma weekend at Andrew and Sandra's property at Cooran. A variety of people attended - seven on Saturday. One extra (Steve Bohdi2500) came on Sunday (four dsg-ers altogether - Steve, KenH, Andrew and I) It was lovely to meet Steve, and find he was so well versed in the Dhamma. It is probable that a photo with him in it, will appear in the next few days in the Photo Album. KenH very ably led the discussion centreing on Nina's article "Abhidhamma and Practice. A few people were previously unfamiliar with Abhidhamma. We all learned a lot, wrestled with old difficulties like Anatta, and found a few new ones, like Freewill/no control, rebirth, the 31 Planes of existence, Right view and the Ariyan Eight Fold Path. I hope others will talk more about what often proved to be robust and stimulating discussions, expressed in a free and frank manner, with much camaraderie and humour. (I LIKED the toast KenH - they're hard men, that Dhammadina House mob - saying the charcoal would clean their teeth, and it was just as well you weren't eating any so there would be someone to tell the hospital what had happened :) And on your Birthday weekend too! (21 again?) - Andrew you are a dab hand with carrot cake, great chocolate icing with colourful little alphabet lollies (for Ken) on top. Thank you for the wonderful friendly hospitality Sandra and Andrew, how fortunate to live with such beautiful bush and hills scenery - though ... could you give a quiet mention to the shrieking parrots, laughing kookaburras, cawing crows, and other assorted feathery friends that it is O.K. to get up an hour or so later on weekends. I loved sharing the Cattery - (maybe the door to my exercise yard could be a little larger?) - endearing and very fortunate cats to have such caring owners - and I have quite forgiven the regurgitated fur ball in my sleeping bag :) Cheers, Chris 14873 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:46pm Subject: A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' Dear All, I had always thought that Right View/Right Understanding had to be developed first. In the article 'Abhidhamma and Practice' which was the stimulus for discussion this last weekend, Nina says "the development of Right Understanding should be our first aim." I have often read Majjhima Nikaya 117, Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, 'The Great Forty' which says "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." But in Nyanatiloka's 'Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' I came across the sentence, "Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right view." I don't understand this .... metta, Christine 14874 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: Weekend at Cooran --- Thanks for letting us know about your weekend Chris. Looks like there are plenty of opportunities to meet with like-minded people in your vicinity. I'll try to put in am email from bangkok later in the week after I meet with some. Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > > It was a wonderful Dhamma weekend at Andrew and Sandra's property at > Cooran. A variety of people attended - seven on Saturday. One > extra (Steve Bohdi2500) came on Sunday (four dsg-ers altogether - > Steve, KenH, Andrew and I) It was lovely to meet Steve, and find he > was so well versed in the Dhamma. 14875 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Dear Sarah, Thanks for the response. I'll have to chew on that for a day or two before I comment. Keep in mind I don't have a problem with vipallasa (and asubha) as a high level concept, as a view. As far as I can tell, that's how the suttas deal with it (at a high level). But when they try to break vipallasa down into atomic units of mind moments, it seems to me like that buddhist scholars tried to cover up inadequacies of vipallasa with some kludgy patches that are forced and cheap. Like creating special cheetahs that only arhats have to address the anatta differences at different stages of arhatship. If my time is limited, I'd rather meditate on impermanence for an hour instead of studying abidhamma. The more impermanence sinks in, the quality of my life improves greatly and immediately. Abidhamma just seems to clutter my limited brain capacity with complicated detail that doesn't have any immediate bearing on my quality of life. Mainly, it just annoys me and makes me sleepy. I still continue to investigate, but I have serious doubts. Will do some research though and report back later. -fk 14876 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:45pm Subject: Perfections, Ch IV, Renunciation, no. 2 Perfections, Ch IV, no 2. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², the ³Conduct of Sona Nanda² 1 : At that time the Bodhisatta passed away from the Brahma world and was born as the son of a Brahmin magnate who had a possession worth eighty crores, in the city of Brahmavaddhana. His parents called him young Sona. When Sona could walk, another being passed away from the Brahma world and he too was conceived by the Bodhisatta¹s mother. When he was born they called him young Nanda. The venerable Ånanda was at that time Nanda. When their parents observed how handsome the boys were they let them be educated in all the liberal arts and they wanted them to marry. However, the Bodhisatta did not wish to marry. He wanted to look after his parents during their whole life, and after their death retire from worldly life. His parents tried to persuade him to marry, but the Bodhisatta was firmly convinced that he should become an ascetic. Thereupon his parents wanted to entrust their possessions to Nanda instead, but Nanda said, ³Since my older brother Sona did not accept your possessions, I will not accept them either, and I shall also become an ascetic.² The parents were much surprised that their two sons wanted in their young age to give up their possessions and retire from worldly life. When they noticed the firm determination of their sons, and saw that they were able to become ascetics although they were quite young, they also wanted to retire from worldly life. At that time they built a hermitage in the wood and the two brothers looked after their parents. The sage Nanda thought, ³We shall just gather fruits as food for our parents.² He would bring fruits that were left over from the previous day, or that he had gathered on previous days, and give them to his parents to eat early in the morning. When they had eaten them they would rinse their mouths and observe a fast. But the sage Sona went somewhat further away to gather sweet and ripe fruits with a delicious flavour and offered these to them. His parents said to Sona, ³We have already eaten and we are observing a fast, and therefore we have no need of these fruits.² However, the fruits that the sage Nanda had gathered before in order to give to his parents early in the morning were sometimes spoiled. Thereupon the Bodhisatta thought, ³My parents are delicate, they belong to a high caste, and thus they should not eat fruits that are not good. Sometimes they are spoilt or unripe. Nanda brings all kinds of half-ripe or unripe fruits for them to eat and therefore they will not live long.² He wanted to stop Nanda from doing this, and addressed him with the words: ³From now on, when you have gathered fruits for our parents, you have to wait until I have returned, and then we shall both at the same time supply them with food. They should not merely eat the fruits of Nanda.² When the sage Sona had spoken thus, the sage Nanda did not follow up what his brother said because he hoped to gain merit for himself. He hoped that his parents would eat only the fruits that he had brought himself. When the Bodhisatta noticed that the sage Nanda paid no heed to his words he told him to go somewhere else, and he himself would take care of his parents. When the sage Nanda was dismissed by his brother he took leave of the Bodhisatta and of his parents. He developed the eight attainments and the five higher powers 2) and then he wanted to ask his brother forgiveness. These are the thoughts of someone who has accumulated the perfections and knows what is proper and what not. Footnote: 1. See also the Sona Nanda Jåtaka, no. 532. 2. These eight attainments are stages of absorption concentration, jhåna, acquired through the development of samatha, calm. They are stages of material jhåna, rúpa jhåna and immaterial jhåna, arúpa jhåna. The five higher powers, abhinnås, which are mundane, are magical powers, divine ear, penetration of the cittas of others, divine eye and remembrance of former existences. 14877 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' --- christine_forsyth wrote: >> But in Nyanatiloka's 'Manual of Buddhist Terms and > Doctrines' > I came across the sentence, "Regarding the mundane > (lokiya) eightfold > path, however, its links may arise without the first > link, right > view." > I don't understand this .... > Presumably that's to contrast with ariyas, who would automatically have right view arise in conjunction with all factors of the 8fold path. 14878 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 10:16pm Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. No, What is called miccha-sati is lobha, not sati. Sati only arises with kusala cittas. Sanna also arises with all the cittas, including akusala cittas. I think, by default, when some factors of a citta are said to be micha, all the con-ascent dhammas can be said to be micha, although I haven't heard of any references that say this. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 2:00 PM > Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris > in daily life. > > > Thanks Kom, very interesting. I didn't quite > understand micha-sati. Is > there lobha with this eventhough it arises only > with kusala cittas? > Could we call it micha-sanna? > > Larry > 14879 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:21pm Subject: Kalapas According to Nyanatiloka Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Jon - With regard to the following, which you provided, I have a few questions, the primary one of which is how you, personally, as a 21st century person who accepts experience-independent matter, evaluate this. I will insert more particular questions in context. In a message dated 8/10/02 2:50:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > > rúpa-kalápa: > 'corporeal group', material unit, designates a combination of several > physical phenomena constituting a temporary unity. > > Thus, for instance, the so-called 'dead matter' forms the most primitive > group, consisting only of 8 physical phenomena, called the 'pure eightfold > unit' or 'octad' (suddhatthakakalápa), to wit: the 4 elements (the solid, > fluid, heat, motion); colour, smell, taste, nutriment (pathaví, ápo, tejo, > váyo; vanna, gandha, rasa, ojá). > [In Vis.M., and elsewhere, it is also called ojatthamaka-kalápa, 'the > octad with nutriment as the 8th factor'.] ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What, exactly, is the kalapa of "nutriment"? Also, when there are no "sentient beings" around in this material realm, no one to smell or taste or see, what do you suppose will constitute the kalapas of smell, taste, and colour? What does "taste" mean when there is no possibility of tasting? Is it a subjunctive potentiality? That is, if there were in effect the conditions described as 'a sentient being with tasting capacity being present', then taste would be experienced? That would make some sense to me. But, otherwise, I wonder at what the kalapa of taste, in itself, is supposed to be. Disembodied taste, co-occurring with other similar disembodied characteristics such as solidity, smell, and nutriment strike me as a rather poor substitute for both the realist view of actual external things with characteristics of hardness etc and also for the phenomenalist view. Perhaps it is much better than it seems, but for me to see that, I would need to have much more of an explanation. -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------> > The simplest form of living matter is the '9-fold vitality unit' or > 'life-ennead' (jívita-navaka-kalápa), formed by adding 'vitality' to the > octad. Seven decades, or units of ten (dasaka-kalápa), are formed by > adding to the 9-fold unit one of the following corporeal phenomena: heart > (physical seat of mind), sex, eye, ear, nose, tongue or body. > [See Vis.M. XVIII, 4; Compendium of Buddhist Philosophy (PTS), p. 164, > 250;Atthasálini Tr., II, 413f.] > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmmm, vitality. Life force? So cells have this, but rocks don't? Exactly what is vitality? Frankly, to me it sounds like a term stemming from the "science" circa the period at which the Abhidhamma commentaries were recorded. But, okay - the definition then becomes real when the physical sense are brought in. But do you believe in a paramattha dhamma of "sex"? I don't. Now, as far as eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body are concerned, I take these to be concrete terminology for the functions of sight, hearing, smelling tasting, and touch - the four "physical" senses. Do you suppose that the Abhidhamma interprets these kalapas that way? Also, is it being said that at most one of these faculties is operative in a "vitality unit"? ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14880 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 10:33pm Subject: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Dear Frank, Just a question: where are the sutta quotes about vipallasa different from any in the Abhidhamma? Robert--- frank kuan wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for the response. I'll have to chew on that > for a day or two before I comment. Keep in mind I > don't have a problem with vipallasa (and asubha) as a > high level concept, as a view. As far as I can tell, > that's how the suttas deal with it (at a high level). > But when they try to break vipallasa down into atomic > units of mind moments, it seems to me like that > buddhist scholars tried to cover up inadequacies of > vipallasa with some kludgy patches that are forced and > cheap. Like creating special cheetahs that only arhats > have to address the anatta differences at different > stages of arhatship. > If my time is limited, I'd rather meditate on > impermanence for an hour instead of studying > abidhamma. The more impermanence sinks in, the quality > of my life improves greatly and immediately. Abidhamma > just seems to clutter my limited brain capacity with > complicated detail that doesn't have any immediate > bearing on my quality of life. Mainly, it just annoys > me and makes me sleepy. > I still continue to investigate, but I have serious > doubts. Will do some research though and report back > later. > > -fk > > > 14881 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Re: A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' Hi Christine, What a coincidence, I just covered that topic this morning. Here is a summary extracted from Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Noble Eightfold Path" ( full text at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html ) ... The eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not steps to be followed in sequence. They are better described as components rather than as steps, comparable to the intertwining strands of a single cable that requires the contributions of all the strands for maximum strength. At some point, all eight factors can be present simultaneously, each supporting the others. However, until that point is reached, some sequence in the unfolding of the path is inevitable. Considered from the standpoint of practical training, the eight path factors divide into three groups: - The moral discipline (Sila) group (right speech, right action, right livelihood); foundation for concentration - The concentration (Samadhi) group (right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration); foundation for wisdom - The wisdom (Panna) group (right view, right intention); the direct instrument for reaching liberation Wisdom is the last stage in the training, yet its factors are at the beginning of the path because preliminary wisdom is needed at the outset. Right view provides the perspective for practice, right intention the sense of direction. When the mind has been refined by the training in moral discipline and concentration, it arrives at a superior right view and right intention, which now form the proper training in the higher wisdom. Right view is the forerunner of the entire path and the guide for all the other factors. Attempting to engage in the practice without a foundation of right view might be compared to wanting to drive to an unfamiliar place without consulting a roadmap. To arrive at the desired place one has to have some idea of its general direction and of the roads leading to it. [lots of stuff deleted in between] The right view of the Four Noble Truths develops in two stages: - The right view that accords with the truths. This is acquired through a clear understanding of their meaning and significance in our lives. Such an understanding arises first by learning the truths and studying them. Subsequently it is deepened by reflecting upon them in the light of experience until one gains a strong conviction as to their veracity. - The right view that penetrates the truths. To realize the truths though experience, it is necessary to meditate and develop insight. At the climax of such contemplation the mental eye turns away from the conditioned phenomena (the aggregates) and shifts its focus to the unconditioned state, NibbŒna. With this shift, there takes place a simultaneous penetration of all Four Noble Truths. ... Christine, the way I interpret it is that perhaps Nyanatiloka is refering to the "superior right view" (the right view from direct exprience as opposed to the right view from book learning). Hope this helps. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > I had always thought that Right View/Right Understanding had to be > developed first. In the article 'Abhidhamma and Practice' which was > the stimulus for discussion this last weekend, Nina says "the > development of Right Understanding should be our first aim." I have > often read Majjhima Nikaya 117, Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, 'The Great > Forty' which says "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And > how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong > view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." > > But in Nyanatiloka's 'Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' > I came across the sentence, "Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold > path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right > view." > I don't understand this .... > > metta, > Christine 14882 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 11:37pm Subject: Re: Weekend at Cooran Hi Christine, Could you summarize the conclusion of the free will / no free will discussion (I am still ruminating on this one)? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > > It was a wonderful Dhamma weekend at Andrew and Sandra's property at > Cooran. A variety of people attended - seven on Saturday. One > extra (Steve Bohdi2500) came on Sunday (four dsg-ers altogether - > Steve, KenH, Andrew and I) It was lovely to meet Steve, and find he > was so well versed in the Dhamma. It is probable that a photo with > him in it, will appear in the next few days in the Photo Album. > KenH very ably led the discussion centreing on Nina's > article "Abhidhamma and Practice. A few people were previously > unfamiliar with Abhidhamma. We all learned a lot, wrestled with old > difficulties like Anatta, and found a few new ones, like Freewill/no > control, rebirth, the 31 Planes of existence, Right view and the > Ariyan Eight Fold Path. I hope others will talk more about what > often proved to be robust and stimulating discussions, expressed in a > free and frank manner, with much camaraderie and humour. > (I LIKED the toast KenH - they're hard men, that Dhammadina House > mob - saying the charcoal would clean their teeth, and it was just > as well you weren't eating any so there would be someone to tell the > hospital what had happened :) And on your Birthday weekend too! (21 > again?) - Andrew you are a dab hand with carrot cake, great > chocolate icing with colourful little alphabet lollies (for Ken) on > top. > Thank you for the wonderful friendly hospitality Sandra and Andrew, > how fortunate to live with such beautiful bush and hills scenery - > though ... could you give a quiet mention to the shrieking parrots, > laughing kookaburras, cawing crows, and other assorted feathery > friends that it is O.K. to get up an hour or so later on weekends. I > loved sharing the Cattery - (maybe the door to my exercise yard could > be a little larger?) - endearing and very fortunate cats to have such > caring owners - and I have quite forgiven the regurgitated fur ball > in my sleeping bag :) > > > Cheers, > Chris 14883 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 0:04am Subject: Noble Eightfold Path Class Hi Nina, Robert (Kirkpatrick), Kom, Frank, Ruth and others I may have missed, Thanks for your input. I used many of your ideas in my presentation to the class this morning. It went quite well. We covered the first five factors this week and I will complete the remaining three factors next week (right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration). If anybody has ideas on practical applications of right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration, they would be welcome (hint, hint :-) ) One of the interesting discussion points this morning was on "idle chatter" (part of right speech). According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, "The traditional definition of 'idle chatter' focuses on avoiding engaging in such talk oneself. In today's world, the definition may be extended to include distractions such as television, radio, newspapers, pulp journals, the cinema [and the internet]. Serious aspirants on the path to liberation have to be discerning to what they expose themselves. They would help themselves by including these sources of amusement and needless information in the category of idle chatter and making an effort to avoid them." I made the point that since starting to teach this Abhidhamma class, I have given up watching in-flight movies and TV in hotel rooms. I also mentioned that I now turn off the radio when I am alone in the car. These changes have given me the time and attention to invest in a worthwhile cause (preparing for my class). It is amazing how much time one has, once one gets one's priorities right. One of the students asked if my actions could be considered a simple reflection of an intention of renunciation (part of right intention). I thought about it for a moment and replied, "Sure, why not?". Once again, thanks for your support and I am looking forward to any ideas you may have on right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. The following week, I will cover the four illimitables (metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha). Thanks, Rob M :-) 14884 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Frank, > Just a question: where are the sutta quotes about > vipallasa > different from any in the Abhidhamma? > Robert--- > Robert, you're probably better informed to answer that than me. All I know is, what I read about concerning vipallasa in the suttas seem plausible. What I hear about vipallasa (second hand from this list)in the more detailed abidhamma doesn't make sense to me. It seems like abidhamma tries to use copius amounts of minute detail to explain gaps in the sutta descriptions of how one goes from worlding to stream entry to arhat. Part of it make sense to me, other parts seem like contrived, forced and endless categorizations of lists of numbers. 80 kinds of cheetahs, 4 kinds of lobster cheetahs for worldlings, 4 special cheetahs only for arhats, 7 hummingbirds arriving at my mind door, etc. etc. As boring as I find it, I do intend to research and study abidhamma to a certain degree before I pass judgement on it. Meanwhile, if I make fun of abidhamma, don't take it personally. The body is not the self, mind is not self, abidhamma studies is not self, frank making fun of abidhamma is not self. -fk 14885 From: anders_honore Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:44am Subject: faith and understanding (was Re: forwarding to list) --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew (& Anders,) Here I am :-) > I would suggest, on the contrary, that when we quote `the leaves in the > forest' with regard to topics we'd like to see included in the scriptures, > it may be mere wishful thinking;-) Yes, I think there is something to be learned from the point he is making in that discourse. He is, very concretely, defining what is relevant to the path, and what is not. All that stuff where we think 'why didn't the Buddha ddress these topics?' are probably not really related to the path. There is a distinction to be learned there, ebtween what is skilful and what is not. > "The Buddha taught that we worldlings are, "without regard for the > ariyans, without regard for the ways of the ariyans." > (Mulapariyaya-Sutta). It would be better to understand this than to deny > it. We `have regard' for the ariyans when we follow them, not when we > imitate them." Wonderful. >bows< > In other words, as he put so well in his post (14238), "imitation is not > the way to go". Again I'm reminded of sacca parami (truth perfection) and > the importance of really checking our so called insights and wisdom > carefully against the scriptures rather than the other way round. Exactly, and closely related the the point I have been trying to make: We shouldn't merely imitate the understanding as revealed in the scriptures. We should attain to that understand, so that it would be like, even if we had never heard of the Buddhadhamma, our understanding would still be in accord with the Buddha's Dhamma. The understanding that is reliant on scripture is not true understanding of the Dhamma. It is either: Understanding through reliance on faith or understanding through reliance on speculative reasoning. True understanding of the Dhamma relies on neither, it is free of concepts and words. Nor is it in contradiction to the word of the Dhamma, because it was direct understanding of the Dhamma that produced the word of the Dhamma. Regarding my hypothesis of never hearing the Dhamma and still understanding it, you could put forward that the Buddha taught that no one penetrates to the true Dhamma without hearing it (except Pacceka and Sammasambuddhas). However, this is not your understanding of it. This is not something you know from direct experience. This is your faith in the concept that the Buddha was not wrong in this regard. Or perhaps you have, through the process of thought, reached the conclusion that it is impossible to know the Dhamma without hearing it, through various ways of logic (if you don't hear about it, how can you know it's there or where to look? Whatever. The mind is creative enough to find other ways), but then again, this is just your logical reasoning, a reasoning still being conditioned by deeper- seated delusions. Then what is your understanding? When not relying on memory of the scriptures, when not relying on deduction through logical reasoning, right then, what is your understanding? How does it seem to you then, that things are? This understanding can't be dissolved by faith in other beliefs, only supressed and unrecognised. It still conditions the way they see the Dhamma, it causes those who do so, to interpret the Dhamma in the light of this, to amake it accord with this. However, It is just this understanding that needs to be examined, observed, released, and through that, comprehended, in order to move forward. To simply believe that the scriptures are true is like the people who hear that the Buddha taught that there is no-self and go around believing that, yet who is the one that believes that it is so? They talk about how there is really no one there, yet they have never seen this for themselves. Even worse, it is exactly thoughts that are habitually clinging to the deeper, more subtle notions of self, that are then taking up the notion of not-self, adding another delusional layer. You shouldn't believe that you have no self (even the Buddha refuted this as a thicket of views). Nor should you affirm that you have a self. However, here you are, looking for a way to end suffering, and then you see the Buddha's teachings, which seem right, and appears as a path for ending suffering, and then you decide 'okay, I'll test it and see if he is right about this not-self thing', and you make the effort to mindful of notions of self associated with the kandhas, mindful of letting them go. And perhaps then, you come to an insight experience, where you see for yourself that for example, the body, is not self. Excellent! Okay, so the Buddha was not wrong about this. From this, you may assume that the Buddha was not wrong about the other kandhas, because you have seen that the path so far is working, but this shouldn't be taken as understanding that the kandhas are empty of self. This is still belief. Though you may have seen that the body is empty of self, you still don't know for yourself that the other kandhas are not. In other words, It is STILL your understanding that the four mental kandhas are self. However, you are willing to believe that the Buddha was right, and because of that, you are mindful of when the habitual, and until now unrecognised, understanding of the mental kandhas being self arise, and you are mindful of their arising, you let go of this understanding, of this view. Likewise with the scriptures. These are not your understanding, and nor should you imitate them in the hope of them becoming your understanding. rather, you should address your current understanding, and see how this understanding does not accord with what the Buddha said, and these habitual understandings of how things work, should then be abandoned. Though you may have faith that the scriptures are not wrong, they are still not your understanding; yours is much different, and thus, upon reflecting on this (having gained faith in the Buddha's teachings) you do not react according to your own understanding, recognising that this has lead to a lot of suffering in the past, remaining mindful of these understandings and what they lead to, nor do you take up the scriptures as your new understanding. Those who do so, are wrongly clinging to beliefs, they do not recognise their beliefs for what they are, beliefs. Because of this, perceived divisions in the teachings arise, and people choose sides, grasping at Mahayana vs. Theravada, seeing one as right and the other as wrong. Yet you do not know for yourself if that is so, because you have not seen the Dhamma directly for yourself, yet cling to the belief that your Dhamma is right, cling to it as your understanding, and thus it becomes delusional. Do not imitate the Dhamma (truth). Test it against your own Dhamma (your truth), and maintain a humble attitude towards your understanding, not clinging to your understanding as 'right', not craving for your understanding to be right, and through this, you come to know the real Dhamma, and you see for yourself 'yes, the Buddha was right in this regard. It is likely that he may be right in other regards. Better test it through practising the Dhamma'. Perhaps taking a through look at the Kalama Sutta in relation to what I wrote above, would not be inappropriate.... 14886 From: anders_honore Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:59am Subject: Re: A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > I had always thought that Right View/Right Understanding had to be > developed first. In the article 'Abhidhamma and Practice' which was > the stimulus for discussion this last weekend, Nina says "the > development of Right Understanding should be our first aim." I have > often read Majjhima Nikaya 117, Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, 'The Great > Forty' which says "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And > how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong > view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." > > But in Nyanatiloka's 'Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' > I came across the sentence, "Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold > path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right > view." > I don't understand this .... What I would like to do, in answering your question, is to try and turn your question ack towards your own practise. test it. For example in relation to the 'great fourty'. In your daily practise, see if it is so, that the various eoghtfold links can exist if there was wrong view in that given situation, see if it is so, that it can exist without right effort, without right mindfulness. See if it is so, that if these things come before right view, then if that can work. Test it throughly in your daily life. And when you have done so, look for errors. See if you can find a way in which it seems to you that this is not the case. And then analyze why that is so, in dependence on what, that this understanding come to be. Take care not to reject this understanding, but upon recognising that through mindfulness, not to indulge it anymore either, as you probably have done habitually in the past, only it has gone unrecognised. Through this, you may come to an experiential understanding of the 'Great fourty' discourse, and perhaps then, Nyanatiloka statements will be seen in a different light. 14887 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:10am Subject: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa --- frank kuan wrote: > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > Dear Frank, > > Just a question: where are the sutta quotes about > > vipallasa > > different from any in the Abhidhamma? > > Robert--- > > > > Robert, you're probably better informed to answer > that than me. All I know is, what I read about > concerning vipallasa in the suttas seem plausible. > What I hear about vipallasa (second hand from this > list)in the more detailed abidhamma doesn't make sense > to me. > _____________________ Dear Frank, Actually I haven't looked into what the Abhidhamma says about vipallasa. The only quotes I've given on the list come from the Sutta Pitaka : recently the Patisambhidhimagga, and months back from the Anguttara Nikaya (as far as I can remember). Robert 14888 From: <> Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:30am Subject: RE: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. okay, I get it, thanks Larry -------------- Kom: "What is called miccha-sati is lobha, not sati." 14889 From: <> Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' Hi Christine, I think he is saying that the mundane eightfold path is equivalent to any kusala citta and panna does not arise with every kusala citta. Larry 14890 From: azita gill Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > dear Chris. and others, < More quotes from the Ven. Dhammadharo: < "Listening, listening, listening, to Dhamma < is a condition for Right Understanding to grow < and grow, and R.U. is one of the first factors of < the 8-fold path, the first to be developed so < that eventually defilements can be eradicated" < < " Abhidhamma is very important. If the intellectual understanding can develop about this < part of the Tripitika, then it may be a condition < for one to develop the R.U. about everyday life. < Every day, moment to moment, experiences of whatever!< Seeing, hearing, thinking, javana process [I think this might be highly dev. R.U.] attachment, etc." < BTW, Lobha is the very last defilement to be eradicated - so at this moment we very, very, very < attached" < may all beings be happy, < Azita.> > > > > > > 14891 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:17am Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) Hi Rob M, and Group, This is a summary of the freewill/ no-control discussion on the weekend - as I 'heard' it. Others may have different points - this is as I 'heard' it through the filters of my own memory, understanding, needs, emotional reactions, views and accumulations. There wasn't a structured hour on Freewill - it just kept surfacing and was interwoven in all discussions ..... Whenever the topic of freewill/no-control arose, Impermanence and Conditions featured heavily - and, as with many of the other exchanges, Anatta (not self) pervaded everything. So many times in the conversations we would slip back into the everyday assumptions, heavily influenced by our culture and habitual language usage, that there was 'someone' who could 'plan', 'achieve', 'do', and 'make things happen' or 'come to be' - i.e. states of consciousness, actions etc. KenH was ever vigilant (some thought 'merciless' :) in reminding us when we strayed off in that direction. We had copies of 'The Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' on the table to refer to. As Nyanatiloka says, "Anatta is the central doctrine of Buddhism, and without understanding of it, a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. Whosoever has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter Nibbana, his personality that walks on the Eightfold Path." Isn't that a spine-chilling description? - "there exists only this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena" ..... The perception of 'loneliness' and 'coldness' for some of us in this explanation was discussed, and the desire for it to be other than this ... finally, the acknowledgment that this is just 'the way it is'. This weekend, though Anatta loomed over all, it was in considering freewill versus no-control that the doctrine of Impermanence made the biggest impact on me. That body and mind are temporary combinations of different realities which arise because of conditioning factors and then fall away immediately. They are succeeded by new realities which fall away again, and so the flux of life goes on. That these bodily and mental phenomena are all 'conditioned things' dependent on something else, and without which they could not be. A concurrence of conditions, not just one condition one effect. Multiple conditions for the effect. So 'choices' and 'decisions' have multiple conditions - and each of these conditions has multiple conditions, all the way back as far as you go I had accepted a sort of 'slower' Impermanence that I see daily - in aging and decaying of people, animals, buildings, objects and trees. But Impermanence - realities rising, staying briefly, falling away in every fraction of a millisecond because of conditions - is difficult to consider ... That's when I began to find it easier to grasp that there is no 'self' who can exert control over realities. How could there be control when everything falls away immediately, including what I think of as 'me'? So regarding Freewill - the more I learn about the conditional nature of every single thing, the multiplicity of conditions, the more I understand that whatever I experience (good or bad) is impermanent, 'not-self' and is beyond *my* control. I have read this again and realise it may not make sense to anyone but me - like trying to explain the taste of a banana ... as was also mentioned on the weekend. :) metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Could you summarize the conclusion of the free will / no free will > discussion (I am still ruminating on this one)? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > > > It was a wonderful Dhamma weekend at Andrew and Sandra's property > at > > Cooran. A variety of people attended - seven on Saturday. One > > extra (Steve Bohdi2500) came on Sunday (four dsg-ers altogether - > > Steve, KenH, Andrew and I) It was lovely to meet Steve, and find > he > > was so well versed in the Dhamma. It is probable that a photo > with > > him in it, will appear in the next few days in the Photo Album. > > KenH very ably led the discussion centreing on Nina's > > article "Abhidhamma and Practice. A few people were previously > > unfamiliar with Abhidhamma. We all learned a lot, wrestled with > old > > difficulties like Anatta, and found a few new ones, like > Freewill/no > > control, rebirth, the 31 Planes of existence, Right view and the > > Ariyan Eight Fold Path. I hope others will talk more about what > > often proved to be robust and stimulating discussions, expressed > in a > > free and frank manner, with much camaraderie and humour. 14892 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 0:14pm Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) Hi Christine (and others), I really, really appreciate the speed and thoroughness of your response. I am still at the point of collecting information and I still have a dozen books to read. I was having tea with a couple of my students before meditation class yesterday and they brought up the issue of freewill vs. anatta. As usual, I dodged the issue and said, "Wait for the class on anatta". With so many people wrestling with this issue, I am surprised that more has not been written specifically addressing it. For the moment, I am still clinging to a two tiered approach that freewill is a useful concept for working at the conceptual level but does not apply at the citta/paramattha level. As an analogy, at the conceptual level, we use the concept of "person" but when we extend down to the citta/paramattha level, we refer to "five aggregates". There are parallels in modern physics. When Einstein (and others) developed the mathematics of modern physics (dealing primarily at the atomic level), it was not necessary to throw Newton's work out the window. Let me put this in perspective. Modern science tells us that as we move faster, things appear to shrink in size (called the Lorentz contraction). If we work out the math, we see that if we are travelling at 60 km / hr, a one metre object shrinks by less than half the size of an atomic nucleus (little wonder that Newton missed this!). For anybody except the absolute purist, we can ignore the Lorentz contraction at normal speeds. If we try to put the Lorentz contraction correction into formulae used at "normal speeds" (Newtonian mechanics) the formulae become incredibly unwieldly. Physicists have no problems dealing with one set of problems (things at "normal speed") using one set of equations and dealing with another set of problems (things travelling close to the speed of light) using another set of equations. This dichotomy keeps the physicts sane (or at least "relatively" sane :-) ). It is true that an optimist sees the glass as half full, the pessismist sees the glass as half empty while the Buddhist sees, "visible object, visible object". Imagine that there were two people who were truly mindful of "the realities of the present moment" [extracted from the DSG charter]. Without words and concepts (these aren't realities), they couldn't communicate with each other. They could only sit, inwardly focused, aware of objects presenting themselves at the sense doors. This isn't daily life, this is meditation! [Jon, Sarah and I had just broached this subject in Hong Kong, then we had to part company. I'm sure that this issue will come up again in the future]. Does this make any sense? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, and Group, > > This is a summary of the freewill/ no-control discussion on the > weekend - as I 'heard' it. Others may have different points - this > is as I 'heard' it through the filters of my own memory, > understanding, needs, emotional reactions, views and accumulations. > There wasn't a structured hour on Freewill - it just kept surfacing > and was interwoven in all discussions ..... > Whenever the topic of freewill/no-control arose, Impermanence and > Conditions featured heavily - and, as with many of the other > exchanges, Anatta (not self) pervaded everything. So many times in > the conversations we would slip back into the everyday assumptions, > heavily influenced by our culture and habitual language usage, that > there was 'someone' who could 'plan', 'achieve', 'do', and 'make > things happen' or 'come to be' - i.e. states of consciousness, > actions etc. KenH was ever vigilant (some thought 'merciless' :) in > reminding us when we strayed off in that direction. > We had copies of 'The Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' on > the table to refer to. As Nyanatiloka says, "Anatta is the central > doctrine of Buddhism, and without understanding of it, a real > knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only > really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire structure of > the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. Whosoever has not penetrated > this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in > reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process of > arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no > separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be > able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths > in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his > personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that > performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these > actions, his personality that will enter Nibbana, his personality > that walks on the Eightfold Path." > Isn't that a spine-chilling description? - "there exists only this > continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and > mental phenomena" ..... The perception of 'loneliness' > and 'coldness' for some of us in this explanation was discussed, and > the desire for it to be other than this ... finally, the > acknowledgment that this is just 'the way it is'. > > This weekend, though Anatta loomed over all, it was in considering > freewill versus no-control that the doctrine of Impermanence made > the biggest impact on me. That body and mind are temporary > combinations of different realities which arise because of > conditioning factors and then fall away immediately. They are > succeeded by new realities which fall away > again, and so the flux of life goes on. That these bodily and mental > phenomena are all 'conditioned things' dependent on something else, > and without which they could not be. A concurrence of conditions, > not just one condition one effect. Multiple conditions for the > effect. So 'choices' and 'decisions' have multiple conditions - and > each of these conditions has multiple conditions, all the way back > as far as you go I had accepted a sort of 'slower' Impermanence that > I see daily - in aging and decaying of people, animals, buildings, > objects and trees. But Impermanence - realities rising, staying > briefly, falling away in every fraction of a millisecond because of > conditions - is difficult to consider ... That's when I began to find > it easier to grasp that there is no 'self' who can exert control over > realities. How could there be control when everything falls away > immediately, including what I think of as 'me'? > So regarding Freewill - the more I learn about the conditional nature > of every single thing, the multiplicity of conditions, the more I > understand that whatever I experience (good or bad) is > impermanent, 'not-self' and is beyond *my* control. > I have read this again and realise it may not make sense to anyone > but me - like trying to explain the taste of a banana ... as was also > mentioned on the weekend. :) > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > Could you summarize the conclusion of the free will / no free will > > discussion (I am still ruminating on this one)? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14893 From: jinavamsa Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 0:52pm Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) hello Rob and Christine and all, So, perhaps you are having your class that you write about below now or soon or already. My sense is that there is a something like a conceptually askew relationship going on here when we try to link anatta and free will. Free will is a rather Western (Christian) concept, tied in tightly with issues of responsibility (for sin) and guilt for such and punishment for such, and such (no pun). Anatta is not in the worldly or agoric/marketplace language, but in what has been called dhammic language. In that language, there is no talk of puggala/pudgala/person, so to talk of someone's free-will (however that might be rendered in Buddhist psychological concepts) would be to confusing two levels of discourse, as some put it. I am not sure if there is a parallel, and probably not a complete parallel, between these two and the two levels of measurement in physics (low velocity and velocity approaching the speed of light), but although what you write is quite clear (to me upon reading it, anyway), I would not think of explaining the one in terms of the other. I did not think that you were attempting to do that, btw, but I did not see the ealier context of that part of the posting..... was this too concise/succinct? thank you, jinavamsa --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine (and others), > > I really, really appreciate the speed and thoroughness of your > response. I am still at the point of collecting information and I > still have a dozen books to read. > > I was having tea with a couple of my students before meditation > class yesterday and they brought up the issue of freewill vs. > anatta. As usual, I dodged the issue and said, "Wait for the class > on anatta". With so many people wrestling with this issue, I am > surprised that more has not been written specifically addressing it. > > For the moment, I am still clinging to a two tiered approach that > freewill is a useful concept for working at the conceptual level but > does not apply at the citta/paramattha level. As an analogy, at the > conceptual level, we use the concept of "person" but when we extend > down to the citta/paramattha level, we refer to "five aggregates". > > There are parallels in modern physics. When Einstein (and others) > developed the mathematics of modern physics (dealing primarily at > the atomic level), it was not necessary to throw Newton's work out > the window. > > Let me put this in perspective. Modern science tells us that as we > move faster, things appear to shrink in size (called the Lorentz > contraction). If we work out the math, we see that if we are > travelling at 60 km / hr, a one metre object shrinks by less than > half the size of an atomic nucleus (little wonder that Newton missed > this!). For anybody except the absolute purist, we can ignore the > Lorentz contraction at normal speeds. If we try to put the Lorentz > contraction correction into formulae used at "normal speeds" > (Newtonian mechanics) the formulae become incredibly unwieldly. > Physicists have no problems dealing with one set of problems (things > at "normal speed") using one set of equations and dealing with > another set of problems (things travelling close to the speed of > light) using another set of equations. This dichotomy keeps the > physicts sane (or at least "relatively" sane :-) ). > > It is true that an optimist sees the glass as half full, the > pessismist sees the glass as half empty while the Buddhist > sees, "visible object, visible object". Imagine that there were two > people who were truly mindful of "the realities of the present > moment" [extracted from the DSG charter]. Without words and concepts > (these aren't realities), they couldn't communicate with each other. > They could only sit, inwardly focused, aware of objects presenting > themselves at the sense doors. This isn't daily life, this is > meditation! [Jon, Sarah and I had just broached this subject in Hong > Kong, then we had to part company. I'm sure that this issue will > come up again in the future]. > > Does this make any sense? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, and Group, > > > > This is a summary of the freewill/ no-control discussion on the > > weekend - as I 'heard' it. Others may have different points - > this > > is as I 'heard' it through the filters of my own memory, > > understanding, needs, emotional reactions, views and > accumulations. > > There wasn't a structured hour on Freewill - it just kept > surfacing > > and was interwoven in all discussions ..... > > Whenever the topic of freewill/no-control arose, Impermanence and > > Conditions featured heavily - and, as with many of the other > > exchanges, Anatta (not self) pervaded everything. So many times > in > > the conversations we would slip back into the everyday > assumptions, > > heavily influenced by our culture and habitual language usage, > that > > there was 'someone' who could 'plan', 'achieve', 'do', and 'make > > things happen' or 'come to be' - i.e. states of consciousness, > > actions etc. KenH was ever vigilant (some thought 'merciless' :) > in > > reminding us when we strayed off in that direction. > > We had copies of 'The Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' on > > the table to refer to. As Nyanatiloka says, "Anatta is the > central > > doctrine of Buddhism, and without understanding of it, a real > > knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only > > really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire structure > of > > the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. Whosoever has not > penetrated > > this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that > in > > reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process > of > > arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is > no > > separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be > > able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble > Truths > > in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his > > personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that > > performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to > these > > actions, his personality that will enter Nibbana, his personality > > that walks on the Eightfold Path." > > Isn't that a spine-chilling description? - "there exists only this > > continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily > and > > mental phenomena" ..... The perception of 'loneliness' > > and 'coldness' for some of us in this explanation was discussed, > and > > the desire for it to be other than this ... finally, the > > acknowledgment that this is just 'the way it is'. > > > > This weekend, though Anatta loomed over all, it was in > considering > > freewill versus no-control that the doctrine of Impermanence > made > > the biggest impact on me. That body and mind are temporary > > combinations of different realities which arise because of > > conditioning factors and then fall away immediately. They are > > succeeded by new realities which fall away > > again, and so the flux of life goes on. That these bodily and > mental > > phenomena are all 'conditioned things' dependent on something > else, > > and without which they could not be. A concurrence of > conditions, > > not just one condition one effect. Multiple conditions for the > > effect. So 'choices' and 'decisions' have multiple conditions - > and > > each of these conditions has multiple conditions, all the way > back > > as far as you go I had accepted a sort of 'slower' Impermanence > that > > I see daily - in aging and decaying of people, animals, buildings, > > objects and trees. But Impermanence - realities rising, staying > > briefly, falling away in every fraction of a millisecond because > of > > conditions - is difficult to consider ... That's when I began to > find > > it easier to grasp that there is no 'self' who can exert control > over > > realities. How could there be control when everything falls away > > immediately, including what I think of as 'me'? > > So regarding Freewill - the more I learn about the conditional > nature > > of every single thing, the multiplicity of conditions, the more I > > understand that whatever I experience (good or bad) is > > impermanent, 'not-self' and is beyond *my* control. > > I have read this again and realise it may not make sense to anyone > > but me - like trying to explain the taste of a banana ... as was > also > > mentioned on the weekend. :) > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: 14894 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:30pm Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) Hi jinavamsa (and all), You may be right that a problem arises becauase I am trying to tie western and eastern concepts together. Let me draw another analogy without religious or cultural overtones... that of memory. At the conceptual level, I have "memories" of concepts, emotions, people, etc. However, when I go into the "Abhidhamma mode", I know that concepts, emotions, people, etc. are not realities (not paramattha). In my posting #14354, I introduced a concept of "ayuhana vinnana" (storehouse of consciousness) and tentatively linked it to memory. In her posting #14394, Nina replied --- We read in Vis. XX, 72: Thus, no store we read here. When there is such an ayuhana vinnana, how could this agree with impermanence? We may cling immediately to it as mine. And then there would be more than one citta at a time. Accumulation takes place each moment: one citta falls away and conditions the next one, and in this way all experiences and all kusala, akusala, are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to life. The force of kamma can propel to a future time and produce vipaka later on. Also memory; there are conditions for recalling later on an event of the past, just because each citta is accompanied by sanna and conditions the following citta. --- I currently have a "two level" model of memory, just as I have a "two level" model of freewill and the physists have a "two level" model. In short, your model depends on your perspective. This reminds me of a quotation from Heisenberg (one of the founders of quantum mechanics): "The path comes into existence only when we observe it". He was talking about the path of elementary particles being dependent on the observer, not about the "path" in the Buddhist sense. I must admit that I have not researched sanna yet (that class will come up in September), so my understanding my evolve over time. Work in progress... Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "jinavamsa" wrote: > hello Rob and Christine and all, > So, perhaps you are having your class that you write about > below now or soon or already. > My sense is that there is a something like a conceptually > askew relationship going on here when we try to link anatta > and free will. > Free will is a rather Western (Christian) concept, tied in > tightly with issues of responsibility (for sin) and guilt > for such and punishment for such, and such (no pun). > Anatta is not in the worldly or agoric/marketplace language, > but in what has been called dhammic language. In that language, > there is no talk of puggala/pudgala/person, so to talk of > someone's free-will (however that might be rendered in > Buddhist psychological concepts) would be to confusing > two levels of discourse, as some put it. > I am not sure if there is a parallel, and probably not a > complete parallel, between these two and the two levels of > measurement in physics (low velocity and velocity approaching > the speed of light), but although what you write is quite > clear (to me upon reading it, anyway), I would not think of > explaining the one in terms of the other. I did not think > that you were attempting to do that, btw, but I did not see > the ealier context of that part of the posting..... > was this too concise/succinct? > thank you, > jinavamsa > 14895 From: jinavamsa Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:39pm Subject: intro hello all, Sarah invited me to introduce myself at this time, and to upload a little photo. So, I have done the second (it's #48), earlier today (that pic is from late March of this year), and now let me go on to say a little something that may be relevant. I've been interested in meditation and Buddhist teachings, off and on, since the 1950s. I think the first specifically book I read in Buddhism was The Transmission of Mind by Huang Po (that would have been back in 1959-60). I've been involved in the Thai Buddhist vipassana tradition since the early 1970s, and since '75 have been a teacher in that tradition, having led residential retreats in various countries, being invited by V.R. Dhiravamsa, who has been my main teacher in this tradition. Oh, the name Jinavamsa is one that he gave me upon asking me to lead retreats with him and on my own. What else? I've taught here and there and have been a psychotherapist since the late 1960s. A collection of little talks and such from retreats and similar contexts is The Far Shore: Vipassana, The Practice of Insight (1980, 1996, 2001). And I'm excited that I've just had a book published that I worked on from 1993 until quite recently. There's more specific stuff on the book and me via http://www.bluedolphinpublishing.com/palace.htm http://www.bluedolphinpublishing.com/Ginsberg.htm and more on the two books via http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa/books Following the various links there should fill this out more. well, onwards, then! jinavamsa (Mitchell Ginsberg) 14896 From: jinavamsa Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:52pm Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) hello Rob, and all, yes, interesting. I can follow the "two-level" model here, and I think what I was trying to say was that so long as each level operates within its own limits (parameters), there is no problem or confusion. I had thought that the parallel of the later alayavijnana (storehouse consciousness) was santana vinnana, but that gets into the specifics of theorizing I'm not very focused on. Anyway, if we go from the ordinary conceptual scheme of things to the abhidhammic (aren't they both conceptual, in that way? but probably I miss your point/distinction), we do have a different understanding of what things amount to. And to make use of analogies for whatever they're worth, it's like the perception of a rope as a dangerous snake. The perception and the interpretation and the fear are all quite real, of course. Still the understanding that there is a dangerous snake, when there is only an old bit of rope lying about, is a mistaken understanding. I would suspect that we'd like any psychological theory looking at such matters to be able to take all of that into account, and deny none of it. But maybe that analogy is not to the point here. (maybe it is, though). late evening here, Jinavamsa --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi jinavamsa (and all), > > You may be right that a problem arises becauase I am trying to tie > western and eastern concepts together. > > Let me draw another analogy without religious or cultural > overtones... that of memory. > > At the conceptual level, I have "memories" of concepts, emotions, > people, etc. However, when I go into the "Abhidhamma mode", I know > that concepts, emotions, people, etc. are not realities (not > paramattha). > > In my posting #14354, I introduced a concept of "ayuhana vinnana" > (storehouse of consciousness) and tentatively linked it to memory. > > In her posting #14394, Nina replied > > --- > > We read in Vis. XX, 72: > > Those born balance like seeds on needle points. > Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; > Those present decay, unmingled with those past. > They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; > Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.> > > Thus, no store we read here. When there is such an ayuhana vinnana, > how could this agree with impermanence? We may cling immediately to > it as mine. And then there would be more than one citta at a time. > Accumulation takes place each moment: one citta falls away and > conditions the next one, and in this way all experiences and all > kusala, akusala, are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to > life. The force of kamma can propel to a future time and produce > vipaka later on. Also memory; there are conditions for recalling > later on an event of the past, just because each citta is > accompanied by sanna and conditions the following citta. > > --- > > I currently have a "two level" model of memory, just as I have > a "two level" model of freewill and the physists have a "two level" > model. In short, your model depends on your perspective. This > reminds me of a quotation from Heisenberg (one of the founders of > quantum mechanics): "The path comes into existence only when we > observe it". He was talking about the path of elementary particles > being dependent on the observer, not about the "path" in the > Buddhist sense. > > I must admit that I have not researched sanna yet (that class will > come up in September), so my understanding my evolve over time. > > Work in progress... > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14897 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 2:13pm Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) Hi Jinavamsa (and all), While you were typing this message, I was checking out your links on you intro message. With your many years of practical experience, I am sure that you will have a lot to offer this group. Your comment about the rope/snake got me thinking about the power of the mind. I heard in a Dhamma talk by Ajan Bram that a subject under hypnosis was told that we was going to be touched with a red-hot iron rod. When they touched his arm with a room-temperature iron rod, the man screamed in pain and the skin actually blistered where he had been touched. Certainly, the mind take bits of paramattha reality (this is where the Abhidhamma comes in) and adds layers upon layers of judgments, concepts, past/future, ego, goals, perspectives and emotions. The mind then convinces itself that this is "reality". In fact, it is probably not an oversimplification to say that more than 99% of what we think is "reality" is, in fact, added on by ourselves. The Abhidhamma gives very specific definitions of the paramatthas (89/121 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas and one nibbana. These are objective, invariant realities. These are true objects of mindfulness. Unfortunately, by definition, the conceptual world doesn't have nice tidy boundaries / limits / parameters, so confusion is bound to arise. You are in California, I am in China, so it is lunch time for me. Get some sleep and we will chat more in the future. Looking forward to it. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "jinavamsa" wrote: > hello Rob, and all, > yes, interesting. I can follow the "two-level" model here, > and I think what I was trying to say was that so long as > each level operates within its own limits (parameters), > there is no problem or confusion. > I had thought that the parallel of the later alayavijnana > (storehouse consciousness) was santana vinnana, but that > gets into the specifics of theorizing I'm not very focused > on. > Anyway, if we go from the ordinary conceptual scheme of > things to the abhidhammic (aren't they both conceptual, > in that way? but probably I miss your point/distinction), > we do have a different understanding of what things amount > to. > And to make use of analogies for whatever they're worth, > it's like the perception of a rope as a dangerous snake. > The perception and the interpretation and the fear are > all quite real, of course. Still the understanding that > there is a dangerous snake, when there is only an old bit > of rope lying about, is a mistaken understanding. I would > suspect that we'd like any psychological theory looking > at such matters to be able to take all of that into account, > and deny none of it. But maybe that analogy is not to the > point here. (maybe it is, though). > late evening here, > Jinavamsa > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi jinavamsa (and all), > > > > You may be right that a problem arises becauase I am trying to tie > > western and eastern concepts together. > > > > Let me draw another analogy without religious or cultural > > overtones... that of memory. > > > > At the conceptual level, I have "memories" of concepts, emotions, > > people, etc. However, when I go into the "Abhidhamma mode", I know > > that concepts, emotions, people, etc. are not realities (not > > paramattha). > > > > In my posting #14354, I introduced a concept of "ayuhana vinnana" > > (storehouse of consciousness) and tentatively linked it to memory. > > > > In her posting #14394, Nina replied > > > > --- > > > > We read in Vis. XX, 72: > > > > > Those born balance like seeds on needle points. > > Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; > > Those present decay, unmingled with those past. > > They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; > > Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.> > > > > Thus, no store we read here. When there is such an ayuhana vinnana, > > how could this agree with impermanence? We may cling immediately to > > it as mine. And then there would be more than one citta at a time. > > Accumulation takes place each moment: one citta falls away and > > conditions the next one, and in this way all experiences and all > > kusala, akusala, are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to > > life. The force of kamma can propel to a future time and produce > > vipaka later on. Also memory; there are conditions for recalling > > later on an event of the past, just because each citta is > > accompanied by sanna and conditions the following citta. > > > > --- > > > > I currently have a "two level" model of memory, just as I have > > a "two level" model of freewill and the physists have a "two level" > > model. In short, your model depends on your perspective. This > > reminds me of a quotation from Heisenberg (one of the founders of > > quantum mechanics): "The path comes into existence only when we > > observe it". He was talking about the path of elementary particles > > being dependent on the observer, not about the "path" in the > > Buddhist sense. > > > > I must admit that I have not researched sanna yet (that class will > > come up in September), so my understanding my evolve over time. > > > > Work in progress... > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > 14898 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Weekend at Cooran Hi Chris and SE QLD DSG corner, --- christine_forsyth Dear Group, > Sounds like a great and ‘colourful’ weekend....hope it helps get you through the monochrome weeks til the next one. Steve, I’m very glad to hear you made it and I’m told you’ve also booked your place in the DSG photo album with Christine’s usual efficiency. It sounds as if you were a real asset to the group as I’d have no doubt about from your very occasional posts here. (Btw, I’m thinking of just sending my camera down to her to deal with Rob M’s lurking pic in it -- or else, I may have to follow Frank’s book reading example and take out the unused film and break a rule or two). Ken H, it sounds like the very best way to spend a birthday weekend and I’m glad to hear you were fending off the abhidhamma doubters with such skill and confidence. I really enjoyed reading Christine’s follow-up ‘free-will’ summary and to hear of the continued discussions on stories and situations..... I’m thinking you may have to send a diagram of the cattery and your exercise yard, Christine.....I have a picture of you huddled up in something like a rabbit cage with the fur balls for exercise. Now when I wrote briefly about how I didn’t equate losing keys with lack of sati, I really didn’t expect anyone to take this literally and start using The Bag to develop the skill into a fine art to test the theory. We already know about The Bag’s penchant for helping stowaways, but I wonder, Ken H, if we need to draw up some new dhamma discussion rules to limit the assistance given? I’ll leave one of you to enlighten others -- it might even deter them from following the same wrong practice. Let me ask, whether the latest stowaways ensure a follow up dhamma discussion next weekend at Ken H’s place? Perhaps it is The Bag’s way of ensuring colourful weekends (as well as return trips to Kandy);-)) Meanwhile, I hope you’ve encouraged more of those hard men from Dhammadina House to look in on us here and Andrew, I keep hearing more about your household skills (referring to the carrot cake and not the toast;-)) Sarah ====== > > It was a wonderful Dhamma weekend at Andrew and Sandra's property at > Cooran. A variety of people attended - seven on Saturday. One > extra (Steve Bohdi2500) came on Sunday (four dsg-ers altogether - > Steve, KenH, Andrew and I) It was lovely to meet Steve, and find he > was so well versed in the Dhamma. 14899 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Memory Hi All; A few weeks back, I used the term, "ayuhana vinnana" (storehouse of consciousness) and suggested it might be linked to memory. Nina replied as follows: --- We read in Vis. XX, 72: Thus, no store we read here. When there is such an ayuhana vinnana, how could this agree with impermanence? We may cling immediately to it as mine. And then there would be more than one citta at a time. Accumulation takes place each moment: one citta falls away and conditions the next one, and in this way all experiences and all kusala, akusala, are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to life. The force of kamma can propel to a future time and produce vipaka later on. Also memory; there are conditions for recalling later on an event of the past, just because each citta is accompanied by sanna and conditions the following citta. --- Now I am reading in Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path ( full text at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html ), under Right Effort, "To prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states": "When the mind adverts to the incoming data carelessly, with unwise consideration (Ayoniso Manasikara), the sense objects tend to stir up unwholesome states. They do this either directly, through their immediate impact, or else indirectly by depositing memory traces which later may swell up as the objects of defiled thoughts, images and fantasies." What are these "memory traces"? Where / how are they deposited (stored?) to allow them to later "swell up as the objects of defiled thoughts, images and fantasies"? What is it that is deposited (paramattha realities, emotions, concepts) ? Note: I haven't research sanna yet, so if that is the answer, I apologize for asking a silly question. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14900 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:45pm Subject: Re: Memory --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All; > > A few weeks back, I used the term, "ayuhana vinnana" (storehouse of > consciousness) and suggested it might be linked to memory. Nina > replied as follows: > > ++++++++ Dear RobM, Do you have a reference for Ayuhana vinnana in the texts, I don't know the term or the context where it is used . If you can give some citations I can check out the discourses where it was used. It is a little hard to comment on just one phrase. Robert 14901 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] intro Hi, Jina - Good to see you here (as elsewhere). With metta, Howard > hello all, > Sarah invited me to introduce myself at this time, and to > upload a little photo. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14902 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Weekend at Cooran Dear Sarah, and all, The Cattery was actually an extremely comfortable Gigantic Shed several hundred yards from the main house and another large shed (also with plumbing, lighting and cooking facilities) that some of the others slept in. The Gigantic Shed is much larger than a family home - though built of different materials - in this case, metal. It is two levels, electric lighting, many rooms, with a staircase leading up, has tables, chairs, lounges, beds, mattresses, reticulated water, bathroom and conveniences, computers, faxes, and undercover parking for at least four cars. Every vacant wall space is covered with bookcases filled with hundreds of books. The G. Shed also has inside and outside runs for the fortunate felines along one side of it. I think reverse species-ism is being practiced, (and why not?), as Each puss has larger inside accommodation than a large double bedroom, plus furnishings, windows, doors - and an outside fenced exercise area. Oh, and Andrew and KenH, I wouldn't feel compelled to bother mentioning anything about keys - I mean, there are much more important Dhamma related topics that are probably occupying everyone's minds. (At least, I hope there are some occupying your mind Ken - I am sorry....). I'm seriously thinking of sending the Bag 'away' - it really seems to have developed an evil, kleptomaniac personality... Does Buddhism believe in 'Possession by evil spirits'? Maybe someone could locate a sutta? Or maybe there is a 'Handbag Paritta' everyone could chant before I arrive? metta, Chris P.S. Sarah, If I may act as a dispeller of delusion here - nobody but nobody plays with furballs that have been recently 'owned' by a cat. I would strongly advise that no-one else bother with this link, this is for the education and future welfare of our esteemed lady moderator only. :):) Please see http://www.onlineveterinarypractice.com/health_advice/cat/info/furball cat.htm (cut and paste both lines). 14903 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: Memory Hi Robert, I really respect the discipline to go back to the source texts. It saves a lot of problems due to "interpretations". A couple of months back, I was discussing sloth and torpor. I mentioned that these cetasikas only occur in cittas that are prompted. A student asked, "Imagine that I am meditating. Sloth and torpor arise. What is it that prompted sloth and torpor?". I said that I did not know but would find out. I looked in the texts and could not find an answer. I asked the guy who teaches intermediate Abdhidhamma (Bro. Teo - really knowledgeable) and he did not know either. I then went to Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda. I was nervous, afraid that I might embarass him because he might not know the answer. Chief Reverend never gives Dhamma talks on Abhidhamma, but I was told that he knew the subject well. I did not need to be afraid. He immediately told me that the prompting came from the ayuhana- vinnana (he also used the more modern term "sub-conscious" to describe it, but warned against associating ayuhana-vinnana with modern psychology definitions of sub-conscious). I mentioned that I had not come across the concept before. Chief Reverend explained that Therevada Abhidhamma did not put much emphasis on this concept, but Mahayana Abhidhamma dealt with it more fully. I left it at that. I looked up the term ayuhana in "BUDDHIST DICTIONARY Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines" by Ven. Nyanatiloka and found: ayuhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhara; s. paticca-samuppada), being the bases of future rebirth. " 'Accumulation', is a name for the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetana) which arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma- bhava, s. Vis.M. XVII, IX, X) Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive-moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of advertence (avajjana, s. vinnana-kicca), these are called the kamma-formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma-process (kamma-bhava)... Or, each volition is called 'karma- process' and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma- formation'. " (Vis.M. XVII) I am not getting hung up on the term, but rather the concept of "long term". Nina's comments about "no store", "impermanence", etc. make sense to me. On the other hand, I understand that if I commit matricide or patricide, then it is pre-determined that I will end up in a woeful state when I die. If I commit matricide at the age of 20 and live 50 more years, what is it that "remembers" my act and stands ready to jump into action for fifty years, waiting to send me to a woeful state? I'm afraid that "memory" is being escalated to the level of "free will" in terms of my lack of understanding! Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All; > > > > A few weeks back, I used the term, "ayuhana vinnana" (storehouse > of > > consciousness) and suggested it might be linked to memory. Nina > > replied as follows: > > > > ++++++++ > Dear RobM, > Do you have a reference for Ayuhana vinnana in the texts, I don't > know the term or the context where it is used . If you can give some > citations I can check out the discourses where it was used. It is a > little hard to comment on just one phrase. > Robert 14904 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: Memory Hi Rob M, While waiting for others with knowledge to reply, this small part was one of the questions that King Milinda asked: "On the other hand, I understand that if I > commit matricide or patricide, then it is pre-determined that I will > end up in a woeful state when I die. If I commit matricide at the > age of 20 and live 50 more years, what is it that "remembers" my act > and stands ready to jump into action for fifty years, waiting to > send me to a woeful state? > > I'm afraid that "memory" is being escalated to the level of "free > will" in terms of my lack of understanding! > > Thanks, > Rob M :-)" "Where, Venerable Sir, is Kamma?" questions King Milinda of the Venerable Naagaseena. "0 Mahaaraaja," replies the Venerable Naagaseena, "Kamma is not stored somewhere in this fleeting consciousness or in any other part of the body. But dependent on mind and matter, it rests, manifesting itself at the opportune moment, just as mangoes are not said to be stored somewhere in the mango tree, but dependent on the mango tree they lie springing up in due season." Just as wind or fire is not stored in any particular place, even so Kamma is not stored anywhere within or without the body. Kamma is an individual force which is transmitted from one existence to another." http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/008-kamma.htm metta, Christine 14905 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: Memory Hi Christine, Excellent! Excellent! Thanks for the paradigm shift. Still more thinking to be done, but in a different direction now. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" > "Where, Venerable Sir, is Kamma?" questions King Milinda of the > Venerable Naagaseena. "0 Mahaaraaja," replies the Venerable > Naagaseena, "Kamma is not stored somewhere in this fleeting > consciousness or in any other part of the body. But dependent on mind > and matter, it rests, manifesting itself at the opportune moment, > just as mangoes are not said to be stored somewhere in the mango > tree, but dependent on the mango tree they lie springing up in due > season." > > Just as wind or fire is not stored in any particular place, even so > Kamma is not stored anywhere within or without the body. Kamma is an > individual force which is transmitted from one existence to another." 14906 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Anders and Views (1), (was:forwarding to list) Hi Anders, --- Anders Honore wrote: > Hi Sarah. Snipped as ruthlessly as I felt I could. Thanks for setting a fine example....let’s see if I can follow your lead;-)) ..... > Allow me to clarify: Understanding of the Dhamma is that which produced > the > written Dhamma. In this way, understanding of the Dhamma is antecedent > to > the the written Dhamma. Thus, from this, one can learn that one must > attain > to an understanding antecedent to the written Dhamma, that is, not > reliant > on the written Dhamma, but nor in contradiction to it. ..... This is correct for Buddhas only. For the rest of us, the order, without exception, is hearing, then considering, then realizing. It is for this reason the Buddha taught and the Scriptures were written down. Christine quoted a useful analogy which Rob M uses in his Notes about the trained musical ear instantly recognizing ‘notes, structure, chord progressions etc in the music. A “trained ear” requires considerable study of music theory followed up by practice of listening to music.” ..... > Moreover, it should be recognised as being intrinsically deluded. > Although > it may be skilful in leading to true insight, it is, in itself, still a > product of the deluded mind and thus should not be clung to. ..... You’re referring to intellectual understanding. Although there is the latent tendency of delusion until the stage of arahatship, at moments of kusala (including wholesome moments of wise consideration, there is no moha. The mind is not a fixed entity and delusion is as impermanent as any other reality. Lobha will cling to kusala states for sure and thinking is not direct insight. So we half agree on this one, I think. ..... > I thought I might have been too brief here. Understanding and practise > of > the Dhamma cannot really be separated, because they are deeply > intertwined. > One's understanding of the Dhamma conditions one's quality and level of > practise, and likewise, the practise conditions one's development of > insight. So no, they can't really be separated that easily. ..... What is understanding if it is not practice and vice versa? If we talk about vipassana bhavana, for example, this is the development of insight, i.e. the practice or accumulation of wisdom. No self to develop, understand or practise apart from panna. ..... > What do you say then, is the nature of direct understanding? If not the > Buddha's understanding, then what? The scriptures' understanding? What > understanding to they have? They are just expressions of understanding. > Not > understanding itself. ..... The Buddha’s understanding is so all-encompassing that it understands all accumulations, kamma, intricate nature of all conditions and so on. This is reflected in the Scriptures. Of course these are expressions only, but expressions representing realities and development of satipatthana. The task of panna (rt understanding) is not to emulate the Buddha’s wisdom, but to begin to understand realities appearing at this moment. Only in this way can it gradually develop, eventually to realize higher insights and eradicate kilesa (defilements). ..... > Even in the many stages of awakening, the realm of apperances exerts its > influence, and thus, what Panna understands, can be said in many ways. > Although I do not claim any ultimate understanding, it is my experience > so > far, that intrinsically, Panna understands the Four Noble Truths, ie > cause > and effect just as it is, but without conscious awareness of it being > so, > although it is recognised as such upon reflection. When truly realised, > this > could be said to be the total realisation of emptiness, ie, that > realisation, that nothing truly exists, in and of itself, and through > this, > one does not grasp at the existence or non-existence of dhammas. ..... Thanks for your sincere answer here. We have two areas of ‘dificulty’. 1) We come from different backgrounds and the language may be confusing. Hence you talk about the ‘realisation of emptiness’ and ‘that nothing truly exists’. I would refer to the anatta (non-self) nature of paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) and the existence of different namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena. This is a discussion in itself.> 2) When we talk about panna understanding the 4 Noble Truths and ‘cause and effect’, I question whether it is possible at this moment. As we know, panna has to develop through stages and cannot miss any steps. Long before the first stage of clearly understanding the difference between namas and rupas, without any doubt, there has to be direct understanding repeatedly of these namas and rupas. In other words there cannot be higher realizations whithout knowing directly (not intellectually) the phenomena appearing now. This is the real rub, I think. Most people would prefer to skip the basic stages and think this is possible. Indeed it may seem so, by experience, but then can we really call it any insight according to the Buddha’s Teachings? Bottom line here -- unless someone can tell me a lot about the characteristics of different realities appearing now (and from direct experience rather than just repeating lists to give Frank a hard-time;-)), it’s hard for me to have any confidence that there really is any realization of the 4NT. Some people say it’s not possble to put the developed panna into words, but I find plenty of words in the Tipitaka. *************************** Sarah ====== 14907 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anders and Views (2), (was:forwarding to list) cont. from (1) ..... >These are wrong views or > wrong > > understandings (i.e. the opposite of samma ditthi, the first factor of > the > > noble 8fold Path) that are referred to. > > Twisting it a bit: Are you perhaps perciving this sutta to conform with > your > own understanding of the Dhamma, to make the scriptures be in line with > your > understanding? I am no Pali expert, so I cannot say which is right. The > translation, as Thanisarro Bikkhu, sounds true to me, thus I did not > question it. If you wish to pursue the matter of authenticity of > understanding this scripture, then perhaps comparing it to Bikkhu > Bodhi's > translation might illuminate the subject. ..... Rob K added this note with reference to the Pali and the commentary, equating views with wrong views: “As both of you point out attachment is not understanding. And as it is said in the Patthana (last book of Abhidhamma) notes somewhere; with regard to right view(and many other objects) "taking it as estimable object arise lust, arises wrong views". I am sure we all often see this happening - considering or hearing some aspect of the sublime Dhamma and feeling how wonderful it is - but so quickly attachment to it or to pleasant feeling rushes in. The only way out is to understand these moments as they occur. If there isn't understanding of this process then attachment will grow (towards the object - in this case Dhamma) and that is a real danger, or one may be conceited about 'my' knowledge or have wrong view that 'I' understand. The Pali of the paragraph below is: 791. Di.t.thiinivesaa na hi svaativattaa, dhammesu niccheyya samuggahiita.m; tasmaa naro tesu nivesanesu, nirassatii aadiyatii ca dhamma.m. (from Suttanipata attavaggo . 3 Du.t.tha.t.thakasutta.m) The commentary equates Ditthi (view) with the 62 wrong views, dvaasa.t.thidi.t.thidhammesu ta.m (as found in the Brahmajala sutta). It looks a very interesting commentary (but rather long and way beyond my ability to translate) including mentions about dependent conditionality .” ***** > But I would think that there is more merit to examining how the mind > reacts > and analyses the scripture, in connection with one's preconceived views > and > position. ..... OK, agreed. The Alagaddupama (Simile of the Snake) sutta, recently quoted, comes to mind again. As Rob K said “we should examine to see whether we are unknowingly trying to gain something for ‘me’." Just one point - any understanding or views are conditioned and anatta. So when we both read the same sutta, these views and any comprehension are conditioned by so many factors, including what we’ve read, heard, considered, discussed here before. Now, we’ve both just read the commentary note, so next time we read the sutta, it may be a little different. ..... > It is not unlikely. It is easy to to grasp at the perception of others > being > caught in impurity, especially if one grasps at purity in connection > with > oneself. As I said, I do not remember the concrete situation, so I > cannot > speak about the concrete motives at the time. What I wrote above, > however, > is an indicator of a general tendency at the time on my part. ..... Maybe we all have some conceit creeping in to the ‘others’ and ‘oneself’ ideas ;-)....Let me quote something I liked that you wrote (off-list) though: “Humans are humans, in the sense that regardless of this tolerance, intolerance, delusion and wisdom, humility and arogance, will be present in the mind, not according to the sect one adheres to, but according to the quality of one’ practise.” ......... > > Yes, I will now speak of the principle of stopping and seeing in > relation to > this, which, though not explicitly mentioned in the Pali Canon, is > hinted at > in the teaching of samatha and Vipassana. > > Moving on... When not indulging in these habits of form, these unskilful > tendencies of the mind, do not proliferate, and thus, there is stopping. > From this place, one can reverse the light, and recognise that whicg, > from > moment to moment, has previously gone unrecognised, and through seeing > and > comprehending them as they are, the habitual tendencies are weakened. > The > same principle works with Samatha, where one delves into deep > meditation, > where unskilful qualitties and tendencies are not proliferating in the > mind. > But nonetheless, the seeds for these tendencies are still present in the > mind, and if one does not apply one's attention to these, then one is > merely > practising Brahmanic meditation, and not the transcendent one the Buddha > taught. ..... I appreciate the first point. However, in what you say, I think there is a tendency to think in terms of ‘situation’ -i.e discussing dhamma, reading, ‘stopping from this place’. I also wonder if there is an idea of self applying ‘one’s attention’ and so on. I’d prefer to say that whether now, by conditions, we’re discussing dhamma, sitting quietly or whatever else, there are these skilful and unskilful tendencies to be known, along with many other realities. The key for any kind of bhavana is therefore understanding, rather than situation. Apologies if I misunderstand you here. ..... > Intrinsically yes. However, the direct understanding (Panna) that > enables > the mind to see things as they are, lies latent in the mind, obscured by > ignorance. Thus, it is through unraveling that which has already come > into > being (views, concepts, all products of ages of accumulated delusion), > that > one arrives at direct seeing. ..... This comes back to our old chestnut theme of Mahayana vs Theravada understanding. Are you quite sure ‘your’ understanding has not been influenced or is not ‘preconceived’ by what you’ve read here, Anders?? Are you not just repeating a formula:-) I’m not saying one is right and one is wrong, but if we appear to have different experiences and understandings and we want to therefore know what the Buddha taught (for this group only) in the Pali Canon, shouldn’t that be our Guide? ..... > Are you saying that one with Right View, though not endowed with Panna, > has > an understanding that can not be shaken, that canot not, through skilful > talk (skilful for whatever end, pure or impure, the speaker may be > aiming > at), be changed to wrong views? That once one embarks on the path of the > Buddhadhamma, and begins to learn of Right Views, then the path is > irreversible? ..... Firstly, panna is at different levels. When we talk about Right View, usually this is referring to the first part of the 5fold or 8fold path, whenever there is right understanding (directly) or a reality. There can and must be right intellectual understanding to support this and a level of panna will also accompany these moments too. Of course, any understanding now is very shakeable. Only the sotapanna’s Right View cannot be shaken under any circumstances, because wrong views have been eradicated. Before that, it’s not that right views turn to wrong views (kusala cannot change to akusala or vice versa), but there can be and will be conditions for wrong views to occur and it will depend on many factors (including wise hearing and consideration of the Teachings) which will predominate and accumulate quicker. ..... > Are these namas and rupas properly comprehended through views, or > through > direct seeing? ..... Depends on the accumulation of panna at any given moment. When ‘direct seeing’ begins to develop in the beginning, the panna will be infrequent and very brief. The right views (or right intell. understanding) will support and be a condition for further ‘direct seeing’. Panna itself will know the difference. It’s a good question, though, and easy to take the first for the second. Thank you for the reminder;-) ..... > Which conventional and absolute realities do you say I do not > distinguish? > When dealing with conventional realities, I speak of views, because this > is > what they are rooted in, even if they are views of transcendence. In > regard > to absolute understanding, though it knows itself to be transcendent, it > does not reflect on itself as being such, and thus goes beyond labels > and > forms, which are the characteristics of conventional understanding. Te > minute I speak of it, it becomes conventional. ..... Ok, a fine answer. This is one set of concepts. Thinking can think about any number and as you repeatedly point out, in that they are all ‘views’, they are equally worthless unltimately. So what absolute realities do ‘you’ distinguish at this moment? ..... > > Do we? Consider the story of the recluse Bahiya; he was given the > briefest > of teaching on the Dhamma: > (Actually all the fine 'absolute realities' snipped out ..... > Through this, he attained Arahantship. It is repeatedly said, that an > Arahant knows the Dhamma through release from ignorance, and the > knowledge > of the Dhamma is just knowledge of dependent co-origination. However, > Bahiaya was never taught about dependent co-origination before he died. > Can > you tell me then, how he came to that knowledge, without hearing of it, > being neither Pacceka Buddha nor Samyaksambuddha, but an Arahant? ..... Good question. I understand that when disciples such as Bahiya or Sariputta heard just a few lines, their accumulated panna was such that at those moments of hearing, they penetrated the 4NT, paticca samuppada and so on. We can read in the Jatakas or other texts about the previous lives of great disciples listening to the previous Buddha and so on. According to the texts, now there are only padaparama individuals who cannot attain in this life, even though they may hear the Dhamma and neyya individuals who need many, many details to comprehend. I believe it wasn’t by chance that Sariputta and Bahiya had the good fortune to hear the Buddha and be born at that time and in that place. ..... > No, the other way around. Your understanding can be said to be correct, > if > what is directly known and experienced, corresponds with the Buddha's > Dhamma. ..... Ok, can we use this as a base for future discussions and can we therefore use the Buddha’s Dhamma (Pali Canon and commentaries on DSG) as ‘referee’ if there is a different understanding? ..... You liked the last quote from one of Ken H’s posts, so let me leave you with another one which I found very neat: “There is no obligation to discover the meaning of life. There is no need to ‘do worthwhile things.’ There is only the present moment in which nama and rupa rise and fall away”. ***** Thanks Anders for more helpful consideration (and I really mean that - ) and also to Ken H for the borowed quote. (hope they get included in the updated history of Buddhism in Qld;-)) Sarah ===== 14908 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meaning in Life Dear Azita, Had we received your message in time, we could have used it at the week-end meeting at Andrew's place. Christine, again, had the honesty to say that hearing (mishearing), the Dhamma can make her feel lonely and overwhelmed by the enormity of it all. (Our loved ones don't really exist! How many aeons have we spent in samsara and how many aeons might there be yet to come?!) I think we all admitted to feeling the same way at times. It's symptomatic of our wrong grasp of the Dhamma but are we ready for the right grasp? Are any of us honestly ready to give up ignorance in exchange for final extinction of the khandhas? For the time being, I'll settle for your `courage, patience and good cheer.' Kind regards Ken H PS 'haven't caught up with todays posts yet -- have to send an off- list message to Christine about my car keys(!) KH --- azita gill wrote: > --- kenhowardau wrote: > snip> Dear Christine and Kenh, > < I'd like to add to this: we are stuck with > whatever we are, no amount of trying will change us - > i.e. the wrong trying. In a sense there can be trying > but trying is not self. At the moment of trying there > is only trying, nothing else!!! > < At the moment of seeing, there is only seeing, > nothing else!!! no self. Just be patient, be brave > and be cheerful, what else is there to do? > < May all beings be happy, > < Azita. > > > > 14909 From: corvus121 Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:54pm Subject: Cooran weekend - free will Hi everyone Yes, it was an excellent weekend meeting here at Cooran. Lovely to see Christine again and to meet Steve - such a pity you are both not closer as I'm sure I could learn a lot from talking with you! One lesson I learned from the weekend is that studying Abhidhamma is a very confronting process that requires perseverance. It offends one's sense of "self" and mocks one's sense of being in control of one's life. We did discuss free will late at night beside the camp fire. Next morning when the embers were cold, we discussed it again. I read a passage from Nina's The Buddha's Path (chapter 3 p 41) and also a bit from an article by Henri van Zeyst (Bhikku Dhammapala)on 'Determinism and Free Will'. A quotation: "'Is the will free or determined?' This could be another of those undecided questions (avyakata), 'is the world eternal or not eternal?' - questions which can never be answered, not even by the Buddha, because of an inherent wrong in the question itself. Just as there is no entity like the world to be either eternal or not, for the world is only a passing process of unsubstantial phenomena to which such attributes are not applicable - so there is no entity like a will to be either determined or free, for the will is only a process of willing which arises and passes in dependence on arising and passing conditions, and which, therefore, can be neither determined nor free." As an ignorant worldling saddled with the delusion of atta and having only a weak intellectual understanding of anatta, I find it hard to see past the thought that "I" am influencing "my" conditions by "deciding" to read Dhamma instead of watching "The Flintstones". All I feel I can do is continue my Dhamma study, glimpse my ignorance and act in it like an oarsman paddling a rickety raft out into the currents. KenH has a number of questions to post up - if he doesn't change his mind about whether they make sense or not - so I will leave that to him and start reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" - again!! Thanks also to Nina for all her wonderful writing. Andrew 14910 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:52pm Subject: Jataka Tales Dear Group, On one of the days at Cooran, I was telling a Jataka tale about a time when the Buddha was a dog. Actually, he was a Talking Dog who was having a Conversation with a King. The King didn't think it was at all unusual to be doing this.... The Buddha as the dog was doing some detective work to find out who really scratched and chewed the leather furnishings of a chariot. (The local homeless dogs were getting the blame and being executed, when it was really the pampered palace pets who did it.) All ended well when the Buddha as the dog, had the pampered palace pets fed a high fat drink that made them vomit, and up came the chewed bits of leather from the Chariot. Nobody listening to me protested, but the looks on their faces could be interpreted to mean they were too polite to voice scepticism.... I am just wondering a little about the the 'status' of the Jataka Tales. Is one expected to view them as morality tales or as actual Word of the Buddha? (Maybe there was a time in a previous aeon when stranger than fiction things actually happened?....) It is just that they all begin with "This lesson was taught by the Blessed One when he was at Savatthi...." or "This was told by the Master, whilst at Jetavana, ....." and at the end of each one, there are recorded words of the Buddha e.g. "His lesson ended, the Master shewed the connexion and identified the Birth by saying (Volume 1, tales 19 and 20) "I was the Tree-fairy of those days." metta, Christine 14911 From: egberdina Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:16pm Subject: The Snow A group of 20 family and friends spent last weekend at Charlotte's Pass, a secluded resort in the Australian Alps. From the front door of the fully catered chalet one glides down to the nearest ski lift, and whistling between age-old boulders, snow gums and a near-purple sky there is no thought of yesterday or tomorrow. In the midst of this I became filled with horror, disgust and despair with the unceasing chain of now-moments. I was struck with revulsion by the sheer emptiness of each passing awareness, sweet savour notwithstanding. How imprisoned I was on this gravy train of thoughts and feelings, how undesirable this whole loathsome existence. This went on for hours. Then, I just stopped thinking. A day later I was thinking again, but it is not the same. Reality and the narrative of Herman Hofman are headed for a showdown. 14912 From: azita gill Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! --- corvus121 wrote: > Hi everyone > Yes, it was an excellent weekend meeting here at > Cooran. > > > KenH has a number of questions to post up - if he > doesn't change his > mind about whether they make sense or not - so I > will leave that to > him and start reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" - > again!! > Thanks also to Nina for all her wonderful writing. > Andrew > dear Andrew, < Sounds like a good w/end - kinda wish I lived a little closer. < I too thank Nina for her incredible work. < Would like to add this to prior discussions: < " Kamma is accumulated because Kamma is intention [cetana]. the Expositor tells that only < in the last citta of the javana process of a sense-door process can there be conditioning of rupa to move < e.g. movement of limbs - movement to cause action. < Cetana is just another cetasika which is accumulated as is Lobha [attachment], Dosa [aversion], < Moha [ignorance], and if strong enough at any one time, will cause rupa to perform a certain action - e.g. a kusala or akusala action." < This indicates to me that it is impossible to < have control over any of our actions, it has all happened before 'we' know about it. Thinking 'we' can do something, is almost a waste of time - the desire to control is uncontrollable, the arising of Sati is < uncontrollable. What to do? just be aware of this present reality, whatever it is. < Patience, courage and good cheer < Azita > > > > > 14913 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:38pm Subject: Re: Jataka Tales --- Dear Chrsitine, If you study the jataka at length you will find that when an animal talks it is often of great surprise to the humans. Sometimes it is not - (or is not recorded as being such.) I read a book recently about a parrot that a quite large vocabulry in English, and seemed to understand the meaning too. Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > On one of the days at Cooran, I was telling a Jataka tale about a > time when the Buddha was a dog. Actually, he was a Talking Dog who > was having a Conversation with a King. The King didn't think it was > at all unusual to be doing this.... The Buddha as the dog was doing > some detective work to find out who really scratched and chewed the > leather furnishings of a chariot. (The local homeless dogs were > getting the blame and being executed, when it was really the pampered > palace pets who did it.) All ended well when the Buddha as the dog, > had the pampered palace pets fed a high fat drink that made them > vomit, and up came the chewed bits of leather from the Chariot. > > Nobody listening to me protested, but the looks on their faces could > be interpreted to mean they were too polite to voice scepticism.... > I am just wondering a little about the the 'status' of the Jataka > Tales. Is one expected to view them as morality tales or as actual > Word of the Buddha? (Maybe there was a time in a previous aeon when > stranger than fiction things actually happened?....) > > It is just that they all begin with "This lesson was taught by the > Blessed One when he was at Savatthi...." or "This was told by the > Master, whilst at Jetavana, ....." > and at the end of each one, there are recorded words of the Buddha > e.g. "His lesson ended, the Master shewed the connexion and > identified the Birth by saying (Volume 1, tales 19 and 20) "I was the > Tree-fairy of those days." > > metta, > Christine 14914 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! Hi Azita, I am confused. Please help to understand. I understand the first bit whereby cetana causes action (rupa). I am not clear how this implies that it is impossible to have have control over any of our actions (other than, anatta; "there is no self" to take control). As I continue to read Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path (full text at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html ), in the section on Right Effort, To prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states, he describes the sense door process as: --- Sense consciousness occurs in a series, as a sequence of momentary acts each having its own special task. The initial stages in the series occur as automatic functions: first the mind adverts to the object, then apprehends it, then admits the percept, examines it and identifies it. Immediately following the identification a space opens up in which there occurs a free evaluation of the object leading to the choice of a response. When mindfulness is absent the latent defilements, pushing for an opportunity to emerge, will motivate a wrong consideration. --- "Free evaluation of the object leading to the choice of response"... sure sounds like free will to me. As I have written before, I am having a really hard time reconciling free will and anatta. Christine (together with Nagasena) has given me a paradigm shift, a fresh perspective, on memory. I still need to explore it further, but it looks promising. I hoping that I can get a similarly fresh perspective on free will. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- azita gill wrote: > < Would like to add this to prior discussions: > < " Kamma is accumulated because Kamma is > intention [cetana]. the Expositor tells that only > < in the last citta of the javana process of a > sense-door process can there be conditioning of rupa > to move < e.g. movement of limbs - movement to cause > action. < Cetana is just another cetasika which > is accumulated as is Lobha [attachment], Dosa > [aversion], < Moha [ignorance], and if strong enough > at any one time, will cause rupa to perform a certain > action - e.g. a kusala or akusala action." > < This indicates to me that it is > impossible to < have control over any of our > actions, it has all happened before 'we' know about > it. Thinking 'we' can do something, is almost a waste > of time - the desire to control is uncontrollable, > the arising of Sati is < uncontrollable. What to do? > just be aware of this present reality, whatever it > is. < Patience, > courage and good cheer < > Azita 14915 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:14pm Subject: Re: Jataka Tales Hi All, What would I lose if I were to consider the Jataka tales as "morality tales attributed to the Buddha", in other words, not to be taken as literal fact, but to be looked at as an illustration of morals? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I am just wondering a little about the the 'status' of the Jataka > Tales. Is one expected to view them as morality tales or as actual > Word of the Buddha? (Maybe there was a time in a previous aeon when > stranger than fiction things actually happened?....) 14916 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > What would I lose if I were to consider the Jataka > tales > as "morality tales attributed to the Buddha", in > other words, not to > be taken as literal fact, but to be looked at as an > illustration of > morals? I wouldn't even rely on teh jataka tales as a good source of morality tales. There's some good stuff here and there, but also a bunch of stuff that is bewildering and incomprehensible, even for a hardcore buddhist believer. I would totally stay clear of it in class, and not recommend it for general consumption. -fk 14917 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Accumulations --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert, > >> I looked up the term ayuhana in "BUDDHIST DICTIONARY Manual of > Buddhist Terms & Doctrines" by Ven. Nyanatiloka and found: > > ayuhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial > literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities > (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhara; s. paticca- samuppada), >___________________________ Dear RobM, Thanks very much for supplying the quote from Nyanatiloka, I was able to find it thanks to this.. áyúhana (Aayuu- hana)is fairly rare by itself in the texts but often occurs either in the form Aayuuhana.m or as part of a complex word phrases . It is indeed a very useful word to understand. The Mahavagga tika (subcommentary) to the Digha nikaya explains (I add some more to Nyantiloka's excellent explanation): Aayuuhana.m sampi.n.dana.m, sampayuttadhammaana.m attano kiccaanuruupataaya raasiikara.nanti attho. Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function. (based on a note by bodhi) sampi.n.dana.m -adding together rasi - heap kicca -function Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases. (from bodhi The great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. gambhiiro, sa"nkhaaraana.m abhisa"nkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin bhavassa aayuuhanaabhisa"nkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho, _ One point I do not think we can correctly talk about an ayuhana vinnana or any storehouse consciousness. This seems an idea that is not part of the Theravada. Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for deep insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. __ While I am on the topic of Paticcasamuppada and accumulations I requote this old letter as it relates to both accumulating and the idea of control and freewill: The Samyutta nikaya ii ch xii, 1 EAnd what, bhikkhus is dependent origination? With ignorance (avijja) as condition, volitional formations(sankharas) come to be, with volitional formations as condition, consciousness(vinnana); with consciousness as condition, mentality and materiality (nama and rupa); with mentality and materiality as condition the six sense bases (salayatana); with the six sense bases as condition contact (phassa), with contact as condition, feeling (vedana); with feeling as condition, craving (tanha); with craving as condition, grasping (upadana); with clinging as condition, becoming (bhava); with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus is called dependent origination." This pithy explanation by the Buddha describes what life really is. These are elements that make up ourElife. They are occurring now but usually we are ignorant (avijja -the first link) of the factors. And because of this ignorance comes the view that "I"Eexist, that feeling is mine or eye is mine, or that "I"Eam seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking. Knowing about Paticcasamuppada we might decide to do something about it, try to stop craving. However, this decision and trying comes under the link of sankhara (volitional formations). It may reinforce or hide a subtle perception of self and control. The Samyutta nikaya nidanavagga ii ch xii, 40 Volition "Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousnessEthen consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is inclination;Esuch is the origin of this whole mass of suffering." E The first step should be comprehension of the factors of the wheel. One of the links is SalayatanaE the six sense bases. The Samyutta nikaya ii ch xii, 2 "And what bhikkhu are the six sense bases? There are these six bases: eye base, ear base, nose base, tongue base, body base, mind base" Conditioned by these bases there is contact and because of contact feeling: "there are six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye- contact, feeling born of ear contact, feeling born of nose contact, feeling born of tongue contact, feeling born of body contact, feeling born of mind contact." ibid. And conditioned by the six classes of feeling tanha(craving) arises. Majjhima Nikaya 148 Chachakka Sutta The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of craving should be known." Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I think this is important, craving is part of the wheel. Usually we misperceive it as "my" craving. But craving, as much as other dhammas, can be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true characteristic can be seen. (Craving, the English translation of tanha, may make us think of a very strong desire, but tanha includes even very minute aspects of unwholesome desire) Later the sutta says: "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving." and it repeats for the other senses of ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. ...... If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. " What then should we do and what is right effort: Ogha-tarana Sutta Crossing the Flood This is the very first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya A deva asks the Buddha how he crossed the flood (the four floods are sensuality, becoming, views, ignorance). "Sir, how did you cross the flood? Friend, by not remaining still, and by not putting forth strenuous effort, I crossed the flood." But Sir, in what way did you cross the flood, neither remaining still, nor putting forth strenuous effort. Friend, if I remained still. I sank; If I put forth strenuous effort, I was swept away Thus, by neither remaining still nor putting forth strenuous effort, I crossed the flood." Robert 14918 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! Hi Rob M, Azita, and all, This is how I understand it, and I know for myself: Self-control in bodily action, speech, and thought for abandonment of bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct leads to benefit and happiness. Regards, Victor --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I am confused. Please help to understand. I understand the first bit > whereby cetana causes action (rupa). I am not clear how this implies > that it is impossible to have have control over any of our actions > (other than, anatta; "there is no self" to take control). > > As I continue to read Bhikkhu Bodhi's Noble Eightfold Path (full > text at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html ), > in the section on Right Effort, To prevent the arising of unarisen > unwholesome states, he describes the sense door process as: > > --- > > Sense consciousness occurs in a series, as a sequence of momentary > acts each having its own special task. The initial stages in the > series occur as automatic functions: first the mind adverts to the > object, then apprehends it, then admits the percept, examines it and > identifies it. Immediately following the identification a space > opens up in which there occurs a free evaluation of the object > leading to the choice of a response. When mindfulness is absent the > latent defilements, pushing for an opportunity to emerge, will > motivate a wrong consideration. > > --- > > "Free evaluation of the object leading to the choice of response"... > sure sounds like free will to me. As I have written before, I am > having a really hard time reconciling free will and anatta. > > Christine (together with Nagasena) has given me a paradigm shift, a > fresh perspective, on memory. I still need to explore it further, > but it looks promising. I hoping that I can get a similarly fresh > perspective on free will. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- azita gill wrote: > > < Would like to add this to prior discussions: > > < " Kamma is accumulated because Kamma is > > intention [cetana]. the Expositor tells that only > > < in the last citta of the javana process of a > > sense-door process can there be conditioning of rupa > > to move < e.g. movement of limbs - movement to cause > > action. < Cetana is just another cetasika which > > is accumulated as is Lobha [attachment], Dosa > > [aversion], < Moha [ignorance], and if strong enough > > at any one time, will cause rupa to perform a certain > > action - e.g. a kusala or akusala action." > > < This indicates to me that it is > > impossible to < have control over any of our > > actions, it has all happened before 'we' know about > > it. Thinking 'we' can do something, is almost a waste > > of time - the desire to control is uncontrollable, > > the arising of Sati is < uncontrollable. What to do? > > just be aware of this present reality, whatever it > > is. < Patience, > > courage and good cheer < > > Azita 14919 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Snow Sounds like one of the Chaan patriarch stories. Can't wait for the next installment Herman :) -fk 14920 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Memory Hi, Christine (and Rob) - In a message dated 8/12/02 5:21:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > Hi Rob M, > > While waiting for others with knowledge to reply, this small part was > one of the questions that King Milinda asked: > > "On the other hand, I understand that if I > > commit matricide or patricide, then it is pre-determined that I > will > > end up in a woeful state when I die. If I commit matricide at the > > age of 20 and live 50 more years, what is it that "remembers" my > act > > and stands ready to jump into action for fifty years, waiting to > > send me to a woeful state? > > > > I'm afraid that "memory" is being escalated to the level of "free > > will" in terms of my lack of understanding! > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-)" > > "Where, Venerable Sir, is Kamma?" questions King Milinda of the > Venerable Naagaseena. "0 Mahaaraaja," replies the Venerable > Naagaseena, "Kamma is not stored somewhere in this fleeting > consciousness or in any other part of the body. But dependent on mind > and matter, it rests, manifesting itself at the opportune moment, > just as mangoes are not said to be stored somewhere in the mango > tree, but dependent on the mango tree they lie springing up in due > season." > > Just as wind or fire is not stored in any particular place, even so > Kamma is not stored anywhere within or without the body. Kamma is an > individual force which is transmitted from one existence to another." > http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/buddha/Teachings/008-kamma.htm > > metta, > Christine > > ================================ You've found a very apt reference. If I may, I'd like to add some thoughts. The last sentence, "Kamma is an individual force which is transmitted from one existence to another.", has a bit of a substantialist ring to it. But I think the matter needn't be so interpreted. Each instance of discerning (vi~n~nana) is accompanied by a variety of functions, including kammic dispositions (sankharic functions). One citta is condition for the arising of subsequent cittas, just as when, in a line of billiard balls, an impact with the first in line is "passed along". It is not really a substantial, underlying something that is passed along in that case, but an event. In the case of cittas, it is not a hidden, secret "kammic force" that is passed along, but merely the occurrence of certain cetasikas serving as condition for the arising of similar cetasikas in subsequent mind moments. An analogy that occurs to me is that of the propagation of a water wave. The up-down water motion is an event which initiates at one location; its occurrence conditions a similar up-down motion at an adjacent location; the progation continues, quite rapidly, without "result" until the appropriate condition arises - the water ends, or a solid wall is encountered, and "the wave breaks," releasing its energy. The initial creation of the up-down motion corresponds to the kamma, and the final breaking of the wave corresponds to the vipaka. This is, perhaps, not too bad of an analogy. There may be cross-currents and other waves which interfere, which deflect or modify the wave, and which may reduce its final impact - the same is true with kamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14921 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anders and Views (1), (was:forwarding to list) --- Sarah wrote: > Bottom line here -- unless someone can tell me a lot > about the > characteristics of different realities appearing now > (and from direct > experience rather than just repeating lists to give > Frank a hard-time;-)), I'm starting to catch on to abidhamma. There are lobsters, mohawks, humming birds arriving at my mind door, porcupines that proliferate, cheetahs that move 60mph in the real world but in abidhamma time there are 6000 momos that elapse within 1 clam, 55 clams in a quickie, and 30 quickies in a jiffy. Did I get it right? -fk 14922 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Snow Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/12/02 7:16:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman writes: > > A group of 20 family and friends spent last weekend at Charlotte's > Pass, a secluded resort in the Australian Alps. From the front door > of the fully catered chalet one glides down to the nearest ski lift, > and whistling between age-old boulders, snow gums and a near-purple > sky there is no thought of yesterday or tomorrow. > > In the midst of this I became filled with horror, disgust and despair > with the unceasing chain of now-moments. I was struck with revulsion > by the sheer emptiness of each passing awareness, sweet savour > notwithstanding. How imprisoned I was on this gravy train of thoughts > and feelings, how undesirable this whole loathsome existence. > > This went on for hours. > > Then, I just stopped thinking. > > A day later I was thinking again, but it is not the same. Reality and > the narrative of Herman Hofman are headed for a showdown. > > ============================ Beautifully told, and very interesting! One thing is not clear to me, though, Herman - is it "good"? Sometimes an event of this sort may mean one thing; sometimes something entirely different. Could you say a bit more? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14923 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! < "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I am confused. Please help to understand. I understand the first bit > whereby cetana causes action (rupa). I am not clear how this implies > that it is impossible to have have control over any of our actions > (other than, anatta; "there is no self" to take control). > >> "Free evaluation of the object leading to the choice of response"... > sure sounds like free will to me. As I have written before, I am > having a really hard time reconciling free will and anatta. > ___________________________ Dear RobM, See if this helps: from the Abhidhamma we know that each moment is conditioned by different conditions and that not even one of those conditions is controllable even for an instant The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" .endquote This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world appears to me. And the world can only be understood by dissecting the whole into its component parts. We can't come to profound understanding if we think about concepts - then it still seems that "I" can choose this or that. Thus while we can chose to go left or go right, sit down or stand up, this level of 'choice' doesn't even begin to understand the complexity of what is happening. If we take this imaginery concept of a person who has choice and then try to apply that idea onto conditioned paramattha dhammas (realities) then we imagine that we can make them arise, that they are controllable, that they stay; and then we do practices in line with this belief and that is silabatupadana (attachment to rule and ritual). No problem though as that too should be understood. It is conditioned to arise, if it arises it is because it must arise. It is showing its anattaness. AS azita wrote "Thinking 'we' can do something, is almost a waste > > of time - the desire to control is uncontrollable," As Jinavamsa indicated we still need to live in our conceptual world. The Dhamma though helps us to see what is only concept and what is real - it shows us what is beneath the surface. > > Robert 14924 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:46pm Subject: Re: Accumulations Hi Robert, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear RobM, > Thanks very much for supplying the quote from Nyanatiloka, I was > able to find it thanks to this.. > áyúhana (Aayuu- > hana)is fairly rare by itself in the texts but often occurs either > in the form Aayuuhana.m or as part of a complex word phrases . [lots clipped off the end] Reading your reply reminds me of the first Abhidhamma class that I attended. The class had been underway for a few months and Bro. Teo was already half way through Chapter 1 (Citta) of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Abhidhammatthasangaha. After an hour of listening to the classification of cittas according to nature, according to roots, etc., I was left thinking, "I understood most of the words that he was using, but I have no idea what he talked about." Those early classes were really exciting, as I struggled to understand. Not understanding is highly motivational for me. I understood most of the non-Pali words in your posting, but to properly understand the implication of what you wrote, I have to get a better grounding in anatta and Paticcasamuppada. The way that I force myself to really learn something is to research it to present to the class (the fear of making a fool of myself in front of a class of people is also highly motivational). I am looking forward to our future exchanges... please bear with me as I learn. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14925 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:56pm Subject: Re: Accumulations --- "robmoult" wrote: > to > properly understand the implication of what you wrote, I have to get > a better grounding in anatta and Paticcasamuppada. The way that I > force myself to really learn something is to research it to present > to the class (the fear of making a fool of myself in front of a > class of people is also highly motivational). > > I am looking forward to our future exchanges... please bear with me > as I learn. >_____________________ Thanks Rob, It is a pleasure discussing with you. I'll be out of Japan from Thursday for most of the next year and won't have many books with me to refer to, so in the last few weeks I've been writing as much as I can while the opportunity is still there. Robert 14926 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! Hi Robert, Sorry, the light bulb is still not "on" yet. I'm on vacation next week. My wife is going back to her home town leaving me to be "Mr. Mom" to my two sons. I think that it is about time that I cracked open all those books / booklets on anatta on my bookshelf. Thanks, Rob :-) 14927 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Self-control 231. Let a man guard himself against irritability in bodily action; let him be controlled in deed. Abandoning bodily misconduct, let him practice good conduct in deed. 232. Let a man guard himself against irritability in speech; let him be controlled in speech. Abandoning verbal misconduct, let him practice good conduct in speech. 233. Let a man guard himself against irritability in thought; let him be controlled in mind. Abandoning mental misconduct, let him practice good conduct in thought. 234. The wise are controlled in bodily action, controlled in speech and controlled in thought. They are truly well-controlled. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/17.html May all find the verses above inspiring and beneficial. Regards, Victor 14928 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 11:30pm Subject: freewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > . So many times in > the conversations we would slip back into the everyday assumptions, > heavily influenced by our culture and habitual language usage, that > there was 'someone' who could 'plan', 'achieve', 'do', and 'make > things happen' or 'come to be' - i.e. states of consciousness, > actions etc. KenH was ever vigilant (some thought 'merciless' :) in > reminding us when we strayed off in that direction. > As Nyanatiloka says, "Anatta is the central > doctrine of Buddhism, and without understanding of it, a real > knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. That's when I began to find > it easier to grasp that there is no 'self' who can exert control over > realities. How could there be control when everything falls away > immediately, including what I think of as 'me'? > So regarding Freewill - the more I learn about the conditional nature > of every single thing, the multiplicity of conditions, the more I > understand that whatever I experience (good or bad) is > impermanent, 'not-self' and is beyond *my* control. > and humour. ________________ Dear Christine, Sounds like Ken was full of mercy. This is what is meant by accumulating, aayuuhana: in this case of conditions now for insight in the future; based on good conditions from the past (pubbekata punnata). Thanks for the photos too. Jina too. Robert 14929 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' op 11-08-2002 12:46 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine: Dear Christine, It was nice to hear about your weekend and the interest you took in the discussions. The mundane eightfold Path: but as Kom reminded us, this is usually fivefold, minus the three abstinences. Right understanding should be developed from the very beginning, but there are different levels of it: listening, considering, and then beginning to be mindful of nama and rupa so that understanding of their characteristics can develop, but very, very slowly. Ven. Nyanatiloka says at the end of this para that kusala citta is not always accompanied by panna. Thus, he was thinking of that, but can we say that there is development of the Path without right understanding? Best wishes from Nina. Ch: I had always thought that Right View/Right Understanding had to be > developed first. In the article 'Abhidhamma and Practice' which was > the stimulus for discussion this last weekend, Nina says "the > development of Right Understanding should be our first aim." I have > often read Majjhima Nikaya 117, Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, 'The Great > Forty' which says "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And > how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong > view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." > > But in Nyanatiloka's 'Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines' > I came across the sentence, "Regarding the mundane (lokiya) eightfold > path, however, its links may arise without the first link, right > view." 14930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence and Abhidhamma Hi Frank, Abhidhamma is seeing, hearing, attachment, aversion. Abhidhamma is life, you cannot escape Abhidhamma, Frank. Understanding of Abhidhamma means understanding of your life. When you hear, there cannot be seeing at the same time, seeing must have fallen away. Hearing arises when sound impinges on the earsense, when there are the appropriate conditions. Hearing is a reality, a dhamma, or an element; its characteristic cannot be changed, there is no need to name it or to use terms. We can change the name hearing, but the reality or the dhamma cannot be changed. Hearing is always hearing, it is the experience of sound. Seeing and hearing only arise for a moment when there are conditions and then they fall away, they are impermanent. They have no owner. What is impermanent is dukkha, unsatisfactory. You prefer to meditate on impermanence, but what is impermanent? Paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa. A concept of a person or a thing we can think of does not arise and fall away. If you just study what interests you and what you can understand, you will not become tired or bored. We need courage and perseverance to study the reality of the present moment. The perfection of energy, viriya, should be developed so that we do not become disheartened. Best wishes from Nina. op 11-08-2002 15:42 schreef frank kuan op <>: > If my time is limited, I'd rather meditate on > impermanence for an hour instead of studying > abidhamma. The more impermanence sinks in, the quality > of my life improves greatly and immediately. Abidhamma > just seems to clutter my limited brain capacity with > complicated detail that doesn't have any immediate > bearing on my quality of life. 14931 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:41am Subject: Correctionfreewill/no-control (was Re: Weekend at Cooran) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In > Dear Christine, > Sounds like Ken was full of mercy. This is what is meant by > accumulating, aayuuhana: in this case of conditions now for insight > in the future; based on good conditions from the past (pubbekata > punnata). > > Robert ________ I've been reading over some more about aayuuhana and paticcasaumppada. When we are talking about the causes that dismantle the cycle of arising and ceasing - and understanding anatta is basic to that- then aayuuhana(accumulation) is perhpas inappropriate. While even vipassana insight does produce future becoming it is also tearing down the wall (dispersion) rather than accumulating because it is leading to nibbana. Robert 14932 From: <> Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Welcome (was: Free Will)- intro Hello Sarah, all, Thank you for your welcome. And 'I' say that, of my own *free will* ;-) My name is Stephen Hillard, I live in northern California and teach special education (long specializing in medically fragile). My knowledge of Buddhism comes virtually entirely from reading, reflecting, and pestering people. While in some amorphous sense I can claim being a Buddhist (or, possibly Taoist — like, it's all One, dude) virtually my entire adult life it was in that rather meaningless left-coast sense that any actual reading or serious discussion — not to mention meditation — was 'square Zen.' Almost 10 years ago, by chance (?) I read a short article on Buddhadasa which led me to read his book "Me and Mine." It was one of those amazing experiences where one realizes 'If this is Buddhism then I'm a Buddhist.' Since I can hear many on this list thinking, "No, actually that's not Buddhadhamma." my posting here will be light, at most. I thank you all for the opportunity to listen. As for my "reputation" let me take this opportunity to once again say I'm innocent, INNOCENT! I like to say more about inflating dhammalist earnings by 3.2 billion then selling my shares just before it crashed but my lawyers... Back to the witness protection program anonymity for me, metta, stephen 14933 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:33am Subject: Re: Accumulations hi Rob, and all, now with the two foci that you mention, anatta and paticcasamuppada, there is the immediate possibility of seeing what these are about in a mindfulness practice. For each entrant into consciousness (dhamma), we may notice whether it is self or other-than-self (guess which!). And as we watch moment by moment the flow of consciousness, we can see the steps in the process of perception leading through judgment to plans to intentionality to action. Now, if you want to stand up in front of a class to describe this, to increase your level of motivation, why not! good luck. jinavamsa --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > Dear RobM, > > Thanks very much for supplying the quote from Nyanatiloka, I was > > able to find it thanks to this.. > > áyúhana (Aayuu- > > hana)is fairly rare by itself in the texts but often occurs either > > in the form Aayuuhana.m or as part of a complex word phrases . > [lots clipped off the end] > > Reading your reply reminds me of the first Abhidhamma class that I > attended. The class had been underway for a few months and Bro. Teo > was already half way through Chapter 1 (Citta) of Bhikkhu Bodhi's > Abhidhammatthasangaha. After an hour of listening to the > classification of cittas according to nature, according to roots, > etc., I was left thinking, "I understood most of the words that he > was using, but I have no idea what he talked about." > > Those early classes were really exciting, as I struggled to > understand. Not understanding is highly motivational for me. > > I understood most of the non-Pali words in your posting, but to > properly understand the implication of what you wrote, I have to get > a better grounding in anatta and Paticcasamuppada. The way that I > force myself to really learn something is to research it to present > to the class (the fear of making a fool of myself in front of a > class of people is also highly motivational). > > I am looking forward to our future exchanges... please bear with me > as I learn. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14934 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! hi Rob, how old are your sons? (You know the license plate frame that says, "There's a special place in heaven for the mom of two boys"?) I take it that her trip home is a mini-vacation of sorts for her, then. you may of course go directly to the source, and take out the old meditation cushion, as well! ;>) Jinavamsa --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Sorry, the light bulb is still not "on" yet. > > I'm on vacation next week. My wife is going back to her home town > leaving me to be "Mr. Mom" to my two sons. I think that it is about > time that I cracked open all those books / booklets on anatta on my > bookshelf. > > Thanks, > Rob :-) 14935 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:38am Subject: Re: Self-control hi Victor and all, These verses to me talk to the influence that awareness can have on mind-state and related action, without going into the theory-laden concept of free-will. By theory-laden, I mean that the concept itself is part of a larger understanding/ theory, or conceptual scheme, in ways that mix the original question of influencing the flow of our lives with initially irrelevant issues such as that of determinism vs. free-will (perhaps the most usual context of the free-will concern). Jinavamsa --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > 231. Let a man guard himself against irritability in bodily action; > let him be controlled in deed. Abandoning bodily misconduct, let him > practice good conduct in deed. > > 232. Let a man guard himself against irritability in speech; let him > be controlled in speech. Abandoning verbal misconduct, let him > practice good conduct in speech. > > 233. Let a man guard himself against irritability in thought; let him > be controlled in mind. Abandoning mental misconduct, let him practice > good conduct in thought. > > 234. The wise are controlled in bodily action, controlled in speech > and controlled in thought. They are truly well-controlled. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/17.html > > May all find the verses above inspiring and beneficial. > > Regards, > Victor 14936 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence and Abhidhamma hello Nina, and Frank, and all, In reading the passage below, I sense that the term Abhidhamma could mean: (1) the third part of the Tipitaka, the Abhidhamma-pitaka; (2) the subject matter of that Basket, Abhidhamma as a particular theory (sometimes described as Abstract Psychology, as Bechert), and; (3) the experiential realities that are being described and theorized about in the Abhidhamma-pitaka and related texts. So, when you talk of not (being able to) escape abhidhamma, I take it that this is in the third sense of the term above. Clearly most of the world gets by with no familiarity or study of the abhidhamma in the first sense, and I suspect that most do not theorize (think abstractly and in generality, with a systematic style to it all) about mind processes. But perhaps I miss the gist of your posting. Can you clarify for me? Thank you. jinavamsa --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Frank, > Abhidhamma is seeing, hearing, attachment, aversion. Abhidhamma is life, you > cannot escape Abhidhamma, Frank. Understanding of Abhidhamma means > understanding of your life. When you hear, there cannot be seeing at the > same time, seeing must have fallen away. Hearing arises when sound impinges > on the earsense, when there are the appropriate conditions. Hearing is a > reality, a dhamma, or an element; its characteristic cannot be changed, > there is no need to name it or to use terms. We can change the name hearing, > but the reality or the dhamma cannot be changed. Hearing is always hearing, > it is the experience of sound. Seeing and hearing only arise for a moment > when there are conditions and then they fall away, they are impermanent. > They have no owner. What is impermanent is dukkha, unsatisfactory. > You prefer to meditate on impermanence, but what is impermanent? Paramattha > dhammas, nama and rupa. A concept of a person or a thing we can think of > does not arise and fall away. > If you just study what interests you and what you can understand, you will > not become tired or bored. We need courage and perseverance to study the > reality of the present moment. The perfection of energy, viriya, should be > developed so that we do not become disheartened. > Best wishes > from Nina. > > op 11-08-2002 15:42 schreef frank kuan op <>: > > If my time is limited, I'd rather meditate on > > impermanence for an hour instead of studying > > abidhamma. The more impermanence sinks in, the quality > > of my life improves greatly and immediately. Abidhamma > > just seems to clutter my limited brain capacity with > > complicated detail that doesn't have any immediate > > bearing on my quality of life. 14937 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! Hi Jinavamsa, --- "jinavamsa" wrote: > hi Rob, > how old are your sons? (You know the license plate frame > that says, "There's a special place in heaven for the > mom of two boys"?) I take it that her trip home is a > mini-vacation of sorts for her, then. > you may of course go directly to the source, and take > out the old meditation cushion, as well! ;>) > Jinavamsa > My sons are 10 and 12. Yes, it is a mini-vacation for my wife. She meditates daily, but sometimes one needs a longer break. 14938 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! congratulations! you've both made it through more than a decade already! jinavamsa --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Jinavamsa, > > --- "jinavamsa" wrote: > > hi Rob, > > how old are your sons? (You know the license plate frame > > that says, "There's a special place in heaven for the > > mom of two boys"?) I take it that her trip home is a > > mini-vacation of sorts for her, then. > > you may of course go directly to the source, and take > > out the old meditation cushion, as well! ;>) > > Jinavamsa > > > > My sons are 10 and 12. Yes, it is a mini-vacation for my wife. She > meditates daily, but sometimes one needs a longer break. 14939 From: Howard Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Welcome (was: Free Will)- intro Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 8/12/02 4:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hello Sarah, all, > Thank you for your welcome. And 'I' say that, of my own *free will* ;-) > > My name is Stephen Hillard, ... ============================== Glad to see you here! You may be interested in looking over the archives a bit. There has been a considerable "phenomenalism" thread being pursued here, mainly between Jonathan Abbott and me, mostly under the title "Rupas Out There" (if you're not already mildly nauseated by the subject! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14940 From: <> Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:29am Subject: ADL ch. 20 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 20 (1) PLANES OF EXISTENCE We are born, we die and then we are born again. It is beyond control in which plane of existence we will be reborn; it depends on the kamma which produces the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) after the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) has fallen away. At this moment we are living in the human plane. Human life, however, is very short. When this life is over we do not know in which plane we will be reborn. Most people do not like to think of the shortness of human life; they are absorbed in what they experience through the sense-doors and on account of these experiences they are happy or unhappy. However, we should realize that happiness and unhappiness are only mental phenomena which arise because of conditions and fall away again. Our whole life is a sequence of phenomena which arise and fall away again. Many religions teach about heaven and hell. In what respect are the Buddhist teachings different? Do we just have to believe in heaven and hell? Through the Buddhist teachings we learn to study realities, to study cause and effect in life. Each cause brings about its appropriate result. People perform good and bad deeds and these deeds bring different results; they can cause births in different planes of existence. The plane of existence is the place where one is born. Birth in a woeful plane is the result of a bad deed and birth in a happy plane is the result of a good deed. Since the deeds of beings are of many different degrees of kusala and akusala, the results are of many different degrees as well. There are different woeful planes and different happy planes of existence. The animal world is a woeful plane. We can see how animals devour one another and we find that nature is cruel. The animal world is not the only woeful plane. There are different hell planes. The akusala vipaka in hell is more intense than the sufferings which can be experienced in the human plane. The descriptions of hells in the Buddhist teachings are not merely allegories; the experience of unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body-sense is akusala vipaka and akusala vipaka is reality. Life in a hell plane is not permanent; when one's lifespan in a hell plane is over there can be rebirth in another plane. Apart from the animal plane and the hell planes, there are other woeful planes. Birth in the plane of petas (ghosts) is the result of akusala kamma, conditioned by lobha. Beings in that plane have a deformed figure and they are always hungry and thirsty. Furthermore, there is the plane of asuras (demons). The objects which are experienced in the asura plane are not as enjoyable as the objects which can be experienced in the human plane. There are four classes of woeful planes in all. Birth as a human being is a happy rebirth. In the human plane there is opportunity for the cultivation of kusala. One can study Dhamma and learn to develop the way leading to the end of defilements and the end of birth and death. Birth in the human plane is kusala vipaka, but during one's lifespan in this plane there are both kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka. Each person experiences different results in life: there is gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, happiness and misery. Each person is born into the family which is the right condition for him to experience the results of his deeds. It is due to one's kamma that one experiences pleasant and unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body-sense. Other happy planes, apart from the human plane, are the heavenly planes. In the heavenly planes there is more kusala vipaka than in the human plane and less akusala vipaka. There are several heavenly planes and although life in a heavenly plane lasts a very long time, it is not permanent. The woeful planes, the human plane and the six heavenly planes which are 'deva planes', are sensuous planes of existence. Sensuous planes of existence are planes where there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, the experience of bodily impressions and other kamavacara cittas (cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness). There are eleven classes of sensuous planes of existence in all. 14941 From: <> Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! Hello Robert, all In the Ambalatthikarahulovada sutta (at MN.i.416) the Buddha tells Rahula that any action of the mind, speech, or body should be done only after repeated reflection before, during and after. If such reflection shows the action to lead to affliction of others or oneself one should definitely not do it. If it does not one may do it. This advice clearly entails that one has time to reflect (not milliseconds, as Christine recently posted), that one should care to reflect through out the performance of the action, and that one is free to act or not upon one's reflections (i.e., adequately in control). How is this advice is consistent with your post: >See if this helps: from the Abhidhamma we know that each moment is conditioned >by different conditions and that not even one of those conditions is controllable >even for an instant >The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) >xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the >concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: >1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and >2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its >completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can >feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have >bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. >But the elements have not the time or span of duration >to carry out such functions" .endquote >This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world >appears to me. Further, if one takes a two-tier approach >And the world can only be understood by >dissecting the whole into its component parts.* I fail to see how your break down explicates what the Buddha told his son; in fact, in gives every *appearance* of negating it. (Not to mention how does it help us to practice what the Buddha taught his son?) Perhaps the relationship between these two levels is the core of the free will problem in the context of the Dhamma. Clarification? metta, stephen *One can break a painting down into colors and brush strokes but they'll never see the picture of an iris, and never find the beauty. So they'll ask the wrong questions. One can break water down into hydrogen and oxygen, then subatomic particles, but the properties of water can't be predicted from the parts, they emerge only on the molecular level; reductionism doesn't have the answer. Some things, such as, apparently, consciousness, are emergent properties; they exist only in wholes. "We murder to dissect." Wordsworth. Just a passing thought ;-) 14942 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! --- Dear Stephen, Thanks for the reply. I do not see any conflict in what Thein Nyun wrote and the Buddhas statement to his son. Do you agree that sometimes the Buddha spoke conventionally and therefore used terminology such as self and beings etc., but that in an ultimate sense there are no beings? As I said in my post a few days ago : all types of kusala (wholesomeness) can be done with self-view firmly embedded- except for the development of vipassana. You say "Some things, such as, apparently, consciousness, are emergent > properties; they exist only in wholes." Could you explain waht consciousness is and where it emerges from ? Robert > Hello Robert, all > In the Ambalatthikarahulovada sutta (at MN.i.416) the Buddha tells Rahula > that any action of the mind, speech, or body should be done only after > repeated reflection before, during and after. If such reflection shows the > action to lead to affliction of others or oneself one should definitely not > do it. If it does not one may do it. This advice clearly entails that one has > time to reflect (not milliseconds, as Christine recently posted), that one > should care to reflect through out the performance of the action, and that > one is free to act or not upon one's reflections (i.e., adequately in > control). > How is this advice is consistent with your post: > > >See if this helps: from the Abhidhamma we know that each moment is > conditioned >by different conditions and that not even one of those > conditions is controllable >even for an instant > >The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu > (PTS) > >xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to > the >concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > >1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be > performed and >2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being > performed to its > >completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) > "I can >feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being > have > >bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > >But the elements have not the time or span of duration > >to carry out such functions" .endquote > >This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world > >appears to me. > > Further, if one takes a two-tier approach > >And the world can only be understood by > >dissecting the whole into its component parts.* > I fail to see how your break down explicates what the Buddha told his son; in > fact, in gives every *appearance* of negating it. (Not to mention how does it > help us to practice what the Buddha taught his son?) > Perhaps the relationship between these two levels is the core of the free > will problem in the context of the Dhamma. Clarification? > > metta, stephen > *One can break a painting down into colors and brush strokes but they'll > never see the picture of an iris, and never find the beauty. So they'll ask > the wrong questions. One can break water down into hydrogen and oxygen, then > subatomic particles, but the properties of water can't be predicted from the > parts, they emerge only on the molecular level; reductionism doesn't have the > answer. Some things, such as, apparently, consciousness, are emergent > properties; they exist only in wholes. "We murder to dissect." Wordsworth. > Just a passing thought ;-) 14943 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Re: A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding'/Anders Hi Anders,and All, I have been reading a little on what ditthi (Wrong View) is. http://www.zolag.co.uk/wroa.html I'm not entirely sure that I would recognise Wrong View soon enough to experiment with it - and can it be experimented with? I don't recall ever thinking, "I have wrong view" - even though I know that I am ignorant and deluded. I always think I am acting in accordance with the Teachings. The closest I come is after much discussion with Admirable friends and Dhamma Study, I sometimes realise that I don't hold the opinions and beliefs that I held months ago, that I understand things in a different way - but I never notice that these beliefs and opinions are changing as they do it so slowly - nothing ever happens quickly with me..... metta, Christine > What I would like to do, in answering your question, is to try and > turn your question ack towards your own practise. test it. For > example in relation to the 'great fourty'. In your daily practise, > see if it is so, that the various eoghtfold links can exist if there > was wrong view in that given situation, see if it is so, that it can > exist without right effort, without right mindfulness. See if it is > so, that if these things come before right view, then if that can > work. Test it throughly in your daily life. > > And when you have done so, look for errors. See if you can find a way > in which it seems to you that this is not the case. And then analyze > why that is so, in dependence on what, that this understanding come > to be. Take care not to reject this understanding, but upon > recognising that through mindfulness, not to indulge it anymore > either, as you probably have done habitually in the past, only it has > gone unrecognised. > > Through this, you may come to an experiential understanding of > the 'Great fourty' discourse, and perhaps then, Nyanatiloka > statements will be seen in a different light. 14944 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:51pm Subject: Happy Days! RobK, Sarah and Jon - Have a wonderful time with the friends in Bangkok, may you all have fulfilling Dhamma study and discussions and grow in understanding - (Try to squeeze in the occasional email for those suffering lots of issa, especially some from Down Under :)) metta, Chris 14945 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:58pm Subject: Re: A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding'/Azita Hi Azita, Thank you for giving these quotes from Ven. Dhammadharo. I am enjoying them immensely and I hope there are more to come. metta, Chris --- azita gill wrote: > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > dear Chris. and others, > < More quotes from the Ven. Dhammadharo: > < "Listening, listening, listening, to Dhamma > < is a condition for Right Understanding to grow > < and grow, and R.U. is one of the first factors of > < the 8-fold path, the first to be developed so > < that eventually defilements can be eradicated" > < > < " Abhidhamma is very important. If the > intellectual understanding can develop about this > < part of the Tripitika, then it may be a condition > < for one to develop the R.U. about everyday life. > < Every day, moment to moment, experiences of > whatever!< Seeing, hearing, thinking, javana process > [I think this might be highly dev. R.U.] attachment, > etc." < BTW, Lobha is the very last > defilement to be eradicated - so at this moment we > very, very, very < attached" > < may all beings be > happy, < Azita.> > > 14946 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales Hi Frank, Maybe I'll regret asking this, but could you give me a couple of tales to look up that are bewildering and incomprehensible? It won't worry me, as much of the Teachings affect me that way... Volume and Tale no. would be appreciated. Cheers, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > > --- robmoult wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > What would I lose if I were to consider the Jataka > > tales > > as "morality tales attributed to the Buddha", in > > other words, not to > > be taken as literal fact, but to be looked at as an > > illustration of > > morals? > > > I wouldn't even rely on teh jataka tales as a good > source of morality tales. There's some good stuff here > and there, but also a bunch of stuff that is > bewildering and incomprehensible, even for a hardcore > buddhist believer. I would totally stay clear of it in > class, and not recommend it for general consumption. > -fk 14947 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:14pm Subject: Re: The Snow Dear Herman, What an intriguing piece - An awareness of Suffering - an oppression by the relentlessness, pointlessness and unstopableness of Samsara, perhaps? metta and karuna my friend, Chris p.s. I know most of those boulders and snow gums as well - too intimately :) --- "egberdina" wrote: > A group of 20 family and friends spent last weekend at Charlotte's > Pass, a secluded resort in the Australian Alps. From the front door > of the fully catered chalet one glides down to the nearest ski lift, > and whistling between age-old boulders, snow gums and a near-purple > sky there is no thought of yesterday or tomorrow. > > In the midst of this I became filled with horror, disgust and despair > with the unceasing chain of now-moments. I was struck with revulsion > by the sheer emptiness of each passing awareness, sweet savour > notwithstanding. How imprisoned I was on this gravy train of thoughts > and feelings, how undesirable this whole loathsome existence. > > This went on for hours. > > Then, I just stopped thinking. > > A day later I was thinking again, but it is not the same. Reality and > the narrative of Herman Hofman are headed for a showdown. 14948 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy Days! Hi Chris, Anders, Frank, Steven, Jina... --- christine_forsyth RobK, Sarah and Jon - Have a wonderful time with the friends in > Bangkok, may you all have fulfilling Dhamma study and discussions and > grow in understanding - (Try to squeeze in the occasional email for > those suffering lots of issa, especially some from Down Under :)) ..... Thanks Chris.....I’ll try to prompt the men to run out to internet cafes.....as you know I suffer from ‘foreign computers dysfunctional atrophy’ or something like that. The REALLY snail’s pace for the Bhikkhuni Sangha thread suits me just fine;-) Btw, thanks for a very nice pic of the group in the woods and a chance for Rob K to see how we’re all height challenged apart from Andrew;-) Actually, I’m going to use this post to sign off (we’ll be away for 10days again) as I have to give some urgent attention to wordly concerns like packing, office work and if I can, a quick re-read of Num’s emails on Patisambhidamagga so I have just a little idea what he’s talking about;-) (Looking f/w to it very much, Num). Anders, there is a lot more to consider and discuss in your other post on “Faith & Understanding”. This will have to wait til I get back because I can’t do it justice now. (Others like Andrew may....) Meanwhile, perhaps some of my comments yesterday may have been of relevance. Frank, humour helps I agree;-) I intended to write about how the discussion on details of vipallasa are applicable or can be helpful at this moment and to relate it to your favourite sutta, Chachakka Sutta, which Rob K just quoted. Perhaps you can consider and write about this instead;-) Jina, thanks for the update and very youthful photo and I’m glad to see your posts and comments.....OK all, anyone who doesn’t post for a year has to follow Jina’s example and reintroduce themselves with a pic;-) Steven (not to be confused with Steve), thanks for your intro too....I’m looking forward to more discussions with you and would like to know sometime in a short summary, what it was in the book that particularly had such an impact on you when you picked it up. I’m interested to hear about your work too. Would you kindly follow Jina’s fine example and find a pic for the album as well.....(Chris and I are ready for any excuses btw - this will help prove your innocence in our book too;-)) Your discussion with Rob K is also helping your case;-) Speak soon, keep up all the great posts which we'll be reading over breakfast every day. Sarah ====== 14949 From: egberdina Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: The Snow Hi Howard, Frank, Christine and everyone, In answer to Howard's request I am expanding a little on my experience at the snow. The despair, horror and disgust I felt came on suddenly. It was piercing and very, very unpleasant. It was all the more striking because the situation didn't seem to warrant it. Holidays in the snow, with opulence for the senses, and all that sort of thing. I despaired at seeing the trees, seeing the snow, seeing the people in their multi-coloured decorations. I was aware of the cyclic nature of all that I saw, not at a microscopic level, but just that the trees would live , spawn new trees and die, on and on and on, the snow would fall, melt, evaporate on and on and on. The people are born, live and die, they smile , they cry, from generation to generation they just live and die. Their cries are as empty as their smiles, their pain and their joys are futile, leading to nothing. I became aware that the chasing of pleasure was as meaningless as the avoidance of pain. For reasons unknown I did nothing to soothe what I was feeling. There was no suicidal ideation, though the intensity of what was happening would have caused that reaction in my younger years (I once sat with the barrel of a loaded pistol touching the roof of my mouth, debating whether my children should have a father, or whether I should ease my then-felt anguish. The kids won. ) I did not think to ski down to the chalet to drown, subdue or otherwise diminish what I was feeling with a beer or three, while in times past I would have reached for some narcotic agent in situations of far less stress. I just felt it, no avoidance, it just went on and on and on. And then it just stopped. And I have never known calmness or peace like that. I thought previously that I was able to switch on the tranquility button pretty easily, but this was quieter still. On reflection, with hindsight, I can now see that there were always subtle movements of the mind, when I thought there were none. Regardless of what I may have said or thought in the past, until this stopping of thinking at the snow, I now know that I have never been without the fear of death and the subtle thoughts of self that arise with the impulses to preserve (prevent the death of) this self. But for a while there was none of that. Was it good? The result was good, getting there was absolutely horrible. This state I have not had before, and of course did not know it was possible. But now there is also a more real ? realisation that neither the avoidance of the unpleasant or the clinging to the pleasant is of any intrinsic value. Here endeth the lesson . You asked for it :-) All the best Herman --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 8/12/02 7:16:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Herman writes: > > > > > > A group of 20 family and friends spent last weekend at Charlotte's > > Pass, a secluded resort in the Australian Alps. From the front door > > of the fully catered chalet one glides down to the nearest ski lift, > > and whistling between age-old boulders, snow gums and a near- purple > > sky there is no thought of yesterday or tomorrow. > > > > In the midst of this I became filled with horror, disgust and despair > > with the unceasing chain of now-moments. I was struck with revulsion > > by the sheer emptiness of each passing awareness, sweet savour > > notwithstanding. How imprisoned I was on this gravy train of thoughts > > and feelings, how undesirable this whole loathsome existence. > > > > This went on for hours. > > > > Then, I just stopped thinking. > > > > A day later I was thinking again, but it is not the same. Reality and > > the narrative of Herman Hofman are headed for a showdown. > > > > > ============================ > Beautifully told, and very interesting! One thing is not clear to me, > though, Herman - is it "good"? Sometimes an event of this sort may mean one > thing; sometimes something entirely different. Could you say a bit more? > > With metta, > Howard 14950 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 6:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Dear Sarah, and All, I am still reading around the first point of whether it is possible to decide what are 'lesser and minor rules' ..... seems to me that if the Arahats were not prepared to make a decision regarding this, that the modern Sangha will not be prepared to either. (though "not acting" IS a decision.) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm The second point of Prof. G. P. M. Malalasekara, for consideration when assessing the possibility of restoring the order of Buddhist nuns is: "Second, it is possible to make use of an injunction issued by the Buddha that stipulates, "I permit you monks, to confer full ordination on nuns."[25] There are references in the texts that show that some regulations were amended, altered, or abrogated by the Buddha himself on various occasions under special circumstances. The absence of Bhikkhuniis in Theravaada clearly being a special circumstance, these textual references should be sufficient cause for granting monks the authority to ordain nuns with a clear conscience that no transgression of the Vinaya rules has been committed. Those who oppose the restoration of the Bhikkhunii Sa"ngha on the grounds of Vinaya technicalities seem to ignore this relevant injunction." It seems from my reading that, in the past, in the time of the Buddha, there were eight methods of conferring higher ordination. In the course of time, the eighth came to be regarded as the one and only procedure for admitting a novice to Higher Ordination. What would stand in the way of re-visiting each of these methods(apart from the first)? And, in particular, the one quoted above? metta, Christine http://www.thanhsiang.org/paper2/dip2-9.html "As recorded in the Bhikkhuni Khandhaka of the Cullavagga Pali, Mahapajapati Gotami was conferred both Ordination and the Higher Ordination by her mere acceptance of eight strict conditions (Attha Garudhamma). Again with reference to Addhakasi, a former courtesan, the Buddha even empowered the monks to confer Higher Ordination through an emissary. Before the decentralisation of powers pertaining to disciplinary matters there was an intermediate phase in the monastic order of nuns where nuns were admitted to Higher Ordination following the formal act of procedure by nuns as well as by monks. As the motion and the announcement are pronounced eight times before both communities, this particular method is called Atthavacika. ................. there were eight methods of conferring Higher Ordination during the time of the Buddha: 1 . Ehi bhikkhu (Come, 0 Monk) 2 . Saranagamana (Taking refuge in the triple gem) 3 . Ovadapatiggahana (Acceptance of advice) 4. Panhabyakarana (Answering questions) 5. Atthagarudhamma (Acceptance of eight strict rules) 6 . Duta (Through an emissary) 7. Atthavacika (By the pronouncement of eight times) 8. Natticatuttha kamma (By three announcements)" --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I have no particular barrow to push on this issue other than that I > have never seen it explained comprehensively in such a way as to > give understanding to those, like me, genuinely wondering. I have > little knowledge of this issue, and I still hope calm discussions and > explanations will be forthcoming at some point. This has not > happened elsewhere. At least, any discussion has never been with the > same thoroughness and kindness that other topics (where opinions > differ) have been explored (e.g. formal meditation, the value of the > Abhidhamma itself). It would be good to see all the information for > the basis of the current Theravada position laid out, and an > explanation of why the six recommendations in the article are/are not > sufficient to justify the restoring of the the Order of Nuns to the > Theravadin Tradition. It may even save further angst - we could > have a topic in the Useful Posts called 'Reasons for/against > Restoring the Bhikkuni Order'. If anyone had the knowledge, and the > willingness to impart it, snail's pace - one point at a time - would > be perfect. > > metta, > Christine > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > > > > A very interesting article. Brave and determined woman. Have you > > > read the article "Restoring the Order of Nuns to the Theravaadin > > > Tradition" by Senarat Wijayasundara. I wonder what you think of > the > > > six recommendations? > > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm > > ..... 14951 From: Howard Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 8/13/02 12:46:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > I fail to see how your break down explicates what the Buddha told his son; > in > fact, in gives every *appearance* of negating it. (Not to mention how does > it > help us to practice what the Buddha taught his son?) > Perhaps the relationship between these two levels is the core of the free > will problem in the context of the Dhamma. Clarification? > > metta, stephen > *One can break a painting down into colors and brush strokes but they'll > never see the picture of an iris, and never find the beauty. So they'll ask > > the wrong questions. One can break water down into hydrogen and oxygen, > then > subatomic particles, but the properties of water can't be predicted from > the > parts, they emerge only on the molecular level; reductionism doesn't have > the > answer. Some things, such as, apparently, consciousness, are emergent > properties; they exist only in wholes. "We murder to dissect." Wordsworth. > Just a passing thought ;-) > > ================================ I think that what you write here is very interesting and important. I see it as showing that synthesis is sister to analysis. As I understand it, Abhidhamma recognizes as actualities not only elements such as hardness, color, pleasantness, etc, etc, but also relations among such things. I see so-called "pa~n~natti' (concepts and percepts - like trees, people, cars) as mental constructions combining both the elements and the relations among them, and, hence, serving as short-cut representations for directly observed phenomena that are not, themselves, mental constructs. [Don't misunderstand me here - the directly observed "paramattha dhammas" are mutually dependent with discernment as I see it, but are just not conceptual constructs.] The pa~n~natti, embodying as they do both fundamental phenomena and relations among these phenomena, are amazingly packed with information, and give us useful means for dealing with the world at the usual conventional level. Also, of course, exactly which pa~n~natti we construct is in part determined by our interests, our likes and dislikes, and our dispositions. What we see as a "thing" an animal might not. In any case, and this I see as very important, the insight/wisdom that leads to liberation the Buddha appears to have taught ultimately derives from a microscopic, detailed analysis in the context of a mind prepared by cultivation: calmed by sila and concentration, and made sharp by mindfulness, energy, and directed investigation. This does not in any way contradict the instructions given to Rahula. In fact, all the instructions the Buddha gave, all the time, involve pa~n~natti and language conventions. They would have to. There is no verbal communication that does not involve concept. I don't thnk anyone here doubts that. As far as consciousness being an emergent property of matter, well, that is a materialist theory - a theory, not an indisputable fact. (You, of course, recognize this, having used the word 'apparently'.) As you know, I don't view consciousness that way at all, which of course, is no great matter! ;-)) The Buddha, however, didn't see it that way either. Regardless of the realist/phenomenalist debate on the nature of rupa, the Dhamma views vi~n~nana as a reality or function that is not a behavior of matter, but is a phenomenon that has no lesser level of "existence" than does rupa. Now, one may accept that or not. It is either the case or not. It is, of course, perfectly fine for you or anyone to see consciousness as a property or function of matter, or as somehow emerging from a particular organization of matter, and I suspect that most Westerners do indeed see things exactly that way. But consciousness being an emergent property of matter is a modern, materialist view and is not an element of the Dhamma, at least as I understand the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14952 From: Howard Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Snow Hi, Herman - Thank you so much for expounding further. It seems that you have undergone an important event. How wonderful! It is particularly good that you were able to do "nothing to soothe what [you were] feeling". [Thanks, BTW, for mentioning that there was "no suicidal ideation" involved.] I had a retreat experience once that was fearful and that I "ran" from. Despite having succumbed to my fears, I gained importantly from the experience. But how much more would I have gained had I just stuck with it, without further reaction! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/13/02 5:06:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman writes: > > Hi Howard, Frank, Christine and everyone, > > In answer to Howard's request I am expanding a little on my > experience at the snow. > > The despair, horror and disgust I felt came on suddenly. It was > piercing and very, very unpleasant. It was all the more striking > because the situation didn't seem to warrant it. Holidays in the > snow, with opulence for the senses, and all that sort of thing. I > despaired at seeing the trees, seeing the snow, seeing the people in > their multi-coloured decorations. I was aware of the cyclic nature of > all that I saw, not at a microscopic level, but just that the trees > would live , spawn new trees and die, on and on and on, the snow > would fall, melt, evaporate on and on and on. The people are born, > live and die, they smile , they cry, from generation to generation > they just live and die. Their cries are as empty as their smiles, > their pain and their joys are futile, leading to nothing. I became > aware that the chasing of pleasure was as meaningless as the > avoidance of pain. > > For reasons unknown I did nothing to soothe what I was feeling. There > was no suicidal ideation, though the intensity of what was happening > would have caused that reaction in my younger years (I once sat with > the barrel of a loaded pistol touching the roof of my mouth, debating > whether my children should have a father, or whether I should ease my > then-felt anguish. The kids won. ) I did not think to ski down to the > chalet to drown, subdue or otherwise diminish what I was feeling with > a beer or three, while in times past I would have reached for some > narcotic agent in situations of far less stress. I just felt it, no > avoidance, it just went on and on and on. > > And then it just stopped. And I have never known calmness or peace > like that. I thought previously that I was able to switch on the > tranquility button pretty easily, but this was quieter still. On > reflection, with hindsight, I can now see that there were always > subtle movements of the mind, when I thought there were none. > Regardless of what I may have said or thought in the past, until this > stopping of thinking at the snow, I now know that I have never been > without the fear of death and the subtle thoughts of self that arise > with the impulses to preserve (prevent the death of) this self. But > for a while there was none of that. > > Was it good? The result was good, getting there was absolutely > horrible. This state I have not had before, and of course did not > know it was possible. But now there is also a more real ? realisation > that neither the avoidance of the unpleasant or the clinging to the > pleasant is of any intrinsic value. > > Here endeth the lesson . You asked for it :-) > > > All the best > > > Herman > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Herman - > > > > In a message dated 8/12/02 7:16:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Herman writes: > > > > > > > > > > A group of 20 family and friends spent last weekend at > Charlotte's > > > Pass, a secluded resort in the Australian Alps. From the front > door > > > of the fully catered chalet one glides down to the nearest ski > lift, > > > and whistling between age-old boulders, snow gums and a near- > purple > > > sky there is no thought of yesterday or tomorrow. > > > > > > In the midst of this I became filled with horror, disgust and > despair > > > with the unceasing chain of now-moments. I was struck with > revulsion > > > by the sheer emptiness of each passing awareness, sweet savour > > > notwithstanding. How imprisoned I was on this gravy train of > thoughts > > > and feelings, how undesirable this whole loathsome existence. > > > > > > This went on for hours. > > > > > > Then, I just stopped thinking. > > > > > > A day later I was thinking again, but it is not the same. Reality > and > > > the narrative of Herman Hofman are headed for a showdown. > > > > > > > > ============================ > > Beautifully told, and very interesting! One thing is not > clear to me, > > though, Herman - is it "good"? Sometimes an event of this sort may > mean one > > thing; sometimes something entirely different. Could you say a bit > more? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14953 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Maybe I'll regret asking this, but could you give me > a couple of > tales to look up that are bewildering and > incomprehensible? It won't > worry me, as much of the Teachings affect me that > way... Volume and > Tale no. would be appreciated. > 'fraid I can't help you Chris. When I came to paradise, all I brought was ESSENTIAL reading material :) I should say I do find many of the jataka tales entertaining and insightful in minor ways, and for a buddhist who has a requisite amount of right view, it may be safe enough for them to read. Proceed with caution, draw your own conclusions on teh merits of each tale on an individual basis. :) -fk 14954 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to comment. -fk 14955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding' op 12-08-2002 02:05 schreef azita gill op <>: > > < More quotes from the Ven. Dhammadharo: > < "Listening, listening, listening, to Dhamma > < is a condition for Right Understanding to grow > < and grow, and R.U. is one of the first factors of > < the 8-fold path, the first to be developed so > < that eventually defilements can be eradicated" > < > < " Abhidhamma is very important. If the > intellectual understanding can develop about this > < part of the Tripitika, then it may be a condition > < for one to develop the R.U. about everyday life. > < Every day, moment to moment, experiences of > whatever!< Seeing, hearing, thinking, javana process > [I think this might be highly dev. R.U.] attachment, > etc." < BTW, Lobha is the very last > defilement to be eradicated - so at this moment we > very, very, very < attached" > < may all beings be > happy, < Azita.> >> >> 14956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] quote Ven. Dhammadharo Dear Azita, I appreciate very much your quote, we can always be reminded how attached we are to everything, Thank you, Nina. op 12-08-2002 02:05 schreef azita gill op <>: > > < More quotes from the Ven. Dhammadharo: > < "Listening, listening, listening, to Dhamma > < is a condition for Right Understanding to grow > < and grow, and R.U. is one of the first factors of > < the 8-fold path, the first to be developed so > < that eventually defilements can be eradicated" > < > < " Abhidhamma is very important. If the > intellectual understanding can develop about this > < part of the Tripitika, then it may be a condition > < for one to develop the R.U. about everyday life. > < Every day, moment to moment, experiences of > whatever!< Seeing, hearing, thinking, javana process > [I think this might be highly dev. R.U.] attachment, > etc." < BTW, Lobha is the very last > defilement to be eradicated - so at this moment we are > very, very, very attached" > < 14957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, fading away. Dear Rob Ep, I shall react to your comments below. I also find the study useful, it helps me to consider this difficult subject more. op 10-08-2002 08:55 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: N: If he does not realize the difference between pure kusala citta and >> subtle clinging, he may believe that sensuous desire, one of the hindrances, >> is suppressed, but instead of coarse covetousness he still has subtle >> clinging to calm, thus there is still that hindrance. > R: I would think that developing the ability to discern clinging makes a decisive > difference in every aspect of the path. N: You said it! N:We read VIII, 223-224 about the following stages of insight up to >> arahatship. He sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the body and >> the mind as their origin. He defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the >> body as rupa and the citta and cetasikas as nama. Here we have to be >> careful: he is not mindful of the body as a whole, but of rupas of the body >> as they appear one at a time. > R: just curious: how does this harmonize with the Buddha's stanzas in the > anapanasati sutta on being mindful of 'the whole body' while breathing? Is it > a > different sort of situation with the jhanas or is this a contradiction? N: This is the breathing body, the body of inbreaths and outbreaths. See Vis. VIII, 171.172. And VII, 197: the navel is the beginning of the wind issuing out, the heart is the middle, the nosetip is the end. And of the air going in is the opposite. Thus see the different use of the term body. He is mindful of it, but this is mindfulness of the level of samatha, not mindfulness of vipassana which is mindfulness of only one reality at a time, not of a whole, not of the whole body. He is still training, no jhana yet. The difficulty is, that when there is more calm the breath will become less and less manifest. That is why this subject is so difficult. When he attains jhana the object is a nimitta of breath as was stated. When after emerging from jhana insight is developed he can be aware of only one nama or rupa at a time, not of the whole body. > More about this later on in the Co to the >> anapasati sutta. N: As regards the clause: 3(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out >> contemplating fading away, the Visuddhimagga states that there are two >> kinds of fading away, namely: fading away as destruction which is the >> momentary dissolution of formations (conditioned realities) and absolute >> fading away which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: >> >> Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur >> as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold >> contemplation that it can be understood of him He trains thus, I shall >> breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away. >> > R: when one contemplates the fading away that is nibbana, is this contemplating > an > object that is not there, since I assume he is not in the presence of nibbana? > is > it thus conceptual in nature? N: No, it is not a concept of nibbana. Since he has developed all stages of insight he experiences nibbana. As we read: it is insight, it is the Path. He has emerged from jhana and then he attains enlightenment. The lokuttara cittas which experience nibbana are accompanied by appana samadhi, concentration that can be compared to the attainment concentration of jhana, but now the object is not a nimitta (as in mundane jhana) but the paramattha dhamma which is nibbana. Depending on how many stages of (mundane) jhana he had realized, the lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhanafactors of the different stages of jhana. He has in that case lokuttara jhanacittas. > Vis: Giving up is the giving up of defilements, and entering into is the >> entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. Also this clause pertains >> to insight alone. > R: Again, is Nibbana the present object of this citta, or is it contemplation of > the > concept or idea of Nibbana in this case? N: This clause pertains to insight alone, thus, the object is not a concept. Nibbana is the object, it is directly experienced. Now I shall look at the Co, but it has to be in slow snail's space. Best wishes from Nina. 14958 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 4:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales Hi Frank, The Jatakas verses are part of the Sutta Pitaka (The Khuddaka Nikaya) of the Pali Canon ...... Jatakas were touched on in a discussion on Amara's DSList and Jim Anderson supplied the following information there: "The Jataka (jaataka.m) is part of the Tipitaka and occupies two volumes in print. It consists of verses uttered by the Buddha and would have been recited at the great rehearsals. The Jataka commentary (jaataka.t.thakathaa) which contains the stories that go with the verses take up 10 volumes in a Thai edition. It is traditionally ascribed to Buddhaghosa (as translator & editor). All the verses in the Jataka are also included in the Jataka commentary. .... some people are under the impression that the Jataka stories are part of the Tipitaka but upon closer examination one will find that the stories in fact belong to the commentary. The Jataka proper is only made up of verses like in the Dhammapada." metta, Christine --- frank kuan wrote: > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > > > Maybe I'll regret asking this, but could you give me > > a couple of > > tales to look up that are bewildering and > > incomprehensible? It won't > > worry me, as much of the Teachings affect me that > > way... Volume and > > Tale no. would be appreciated. > > > > 'fraid I can't help you Chris. When I came to > paradise, all I brought was ESSENTIAL reading material > :) > > I should say I do find many of the jataka tales > entertaining and insightful in minor ways, and for a > buddhist who has a requisite amount of right view, it > may be safe enough for them to read. Proceed with > caution, draw your own conclusions on teh merits of > each tale on an individual basis. :) > > -fk > > > 14959 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales Hi Chris, Ok. Jatakasa are considered part of the tipitaka. So is Abidhamma. Doesn't mean I'm going to believe everything in the tipitaka is the word of the Buddha. Everything still has to be scrutinized and verified to work though personal experience. If it's a legitimate teaching that leads to cessation of dukkha, then I'll believe it's the word of the Buddha. Until that's verified (personally), I'm not going to automatically assume everything in the tipitaka is truth. -fk 14960 From: <> Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:24am Subject: ADL ch. 20 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 20 (2) Those who see the disadvantages of sense-impressions may cultivate jhana; they can be reborn in higher heavenly planes which are not sensuous planes. Those who attain rupa-jhana can be reborn in rupa-brahma planes where there are less sense-impressions. There are sixteen rupa-brahma planes in all. One of them is the asanna-satta plane where there is only rupa, not nama. Those who have attained the highest stage of rupa- jhana and who wish to have no consciousness at all, can be reborn without citta; for them there is only a body. These beings have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even happiness is a disadvantage, since it does not last. Those who see the disadvantages of rupa cultivate arupa-jhana. Those who attain arupa-jhana can be reborn in arupa-brahma planes where there are no rupas. There are four arupa-brahma planes. Beings born in these planes have only nama, not rupa. People may wonder how there can be beings which only have rupa or beings which only have nama. If we can experience different characteristics of nama-elements and rupa- elements as they appear one at a time and if we have realized that they are only elements which arise because of conditions, not a being or a person, not self, we will have no doubt that, when there are the appropriate conditions, there can be rupa without nama and nama without rupa. There are thirty-one planes of existence in all, namely: 4 woeful planes the human plane } 11 sensuous planes 6 deva planes 16 rupa-brahma planes 4 arupa-brahma planes As we have seen, the fact that beings are born in different planes of existence is due to their accumulated kamma. Plane of existence is the place where one is born. It is not plane of citta. What plane of citta a citta belongs to, depends on the object (arammana) the citta experiences. We learnt about different planes of citta, namely: kamavacara cittas (sensuous plane of citta or kama-bhumi) rupavacara cittas (plane of rupa-jhanacittas) arupavacara cittas (plane of arupa-jhanacittas) lokuttara cittas (plane of cittas experiencing nibbana) As regards the kamavacara cittas, they can be classified as asobhana cittas (cittas not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas) and kama-sobhana cittas (cittas of the sensuous plane of citta, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas). In which planes of existence do they arise? Kamavacara citta arise in thirty planes of existence, they do not arise in the asanna-satta plane, where there is no nama, only rupa. Even in the arupa-brahma planes there are kamavacara cittas. As regards kama-sobhana cittas, they can arise even in woeful planes. Furthermore, they arise in the human plane, in the heavenly planes, in the rupa-brahma planes and in the arupa-brahma planes. They arise in thirty planes of existence, the asanna-satta plane excepted. Not all types however, arise in all planes of existence. Asobhana cittas can arise in thirty planes of existence, but not all types arise in all planes. Lobha-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) can arise in thirty planes; even in the rupa-brahma planes and in the arupa- brahma planes, lobha-mula-cittas can arise. Dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion) arise in the eleven sensuous planes of existence. They do not arise in the rupa-brahma planes or in the arupa-brahma planes. As long as beings live in the rupa-brahma planes and in the arupa-brahma planes there are no conditions for dosa. Moha-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in ignorance) arise in thirty planes of existence; all those who are not arahats have moha and thus moha-mula-cittas arise in all planes of existence except in the asanna-satta plane. 14961 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:40am Subject: Reflection Thank you, Stephen, for the reference to MN.i.416* Metta, Victor *http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn061.html --- <> wrote: > Hello Robert, all > In the Ambalatthikarahulovada sutta (at MN.i.416) the Buddha tells Rahula > that any action of the mind, speech, or body should be done only after > repeated reflection before, during and after. If such reflection shows the > action to lead to affliction of others or oneself one should definitely not > do it. If it does not one may do it. This advice clearly entails that one has > time to reflect (not milliseconds, as Christine recently posted), that one > should care to reflect through out the performance of the action, and that > one is free to act or not upon one's reflections (i.e., adequately in > control). > How is this advice is consistent with your post: > > >See if this helps: from the Abhidhamma we know that each moment is > conditioned >by different conditions and that not even one of those > conditions is controllable >even for an instant > >The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu > (PTS) > >xxvii writes about this: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to > the >concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > >1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be > performed and >2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being > performed to its > >completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) > "I can >feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being > have > >bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > >But the elements have not the time or span of duration > >to carry out such functions" .endquote > >This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world > >appears to me. > > Further, if one takes a two-tier approach > >And the world can only be understood by > >dissecting the whole into its component parts.* > I fail to see how your break down explicates what the Buddha told his son; in > fact, in gives every *appearance* of negating it. (Not to mention how does it > help us to practice what the Buddha taught his son?) > Perhaps the relationship between these two levels is the core of the free > will problem in the context of the Dhamma. Clarification? > > metta, stephen > *One can break a painting down into colors and brush strokes but they'll > never see the picture of an iris, and never find the beauty. So they'll ask > the wrong questions. One can break water down into hydrogen and oxygen, then > subatomic particles, but the properties of water can't be predicted from the > parts, they emerge only on the molecular level; reductionism doesn't have the > answer. Some things, such as, apparently, consciousness, are emergent > properties; they exist only in wholes. "We murder to dissect." Wordsworth. > Just a passing thought ;-) 14962 From: <> Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (& so is Robert!) Hello Robert, >Dear Stephen, >Thanks for the reply. I do not see any conflict in what Thein Nyun >wrote and the Buddhas statement to his son. Do you agree that sometimes the >Buddha spoke conventionally and therefore used >terminology such as self and beings etc., but that in an ultimate >sense there are no beings? No, I do not. He sometimes spoke conventionally, which meant that he was not misled by using personal pronouns, names, or by referring to persons and such. By this I take it to mean that persons don't exist under certain descriptions, not that they don't exist ultimately; I don't even know what that could mean. They aren't what we take them to be: unchanging, substantial, independent... >As I said in my post a few days ago : all types of kusala >(wholesomeness) can be done with self-view firmly embedded- except >for the development of vipassana. (And, BTW, I agree.) This seems to also be Howard's point, so I'm obtusely missing it. Let's say there are two levels of speaking, conventional and ultimate; and that beings only exist in a conventional sense. So how does that resolve anything? The Buddha tells his son to reflect before, during and after each action, of mind, speech, or body, on its consequences, then act or not depending on those reflections. But in reality there's no time to reflect, everything happens according to conditions, no control, no free will, etc. If the second account is the real thing, the underlying Truth, how does it explicate, not contradict, the first? It's conventionally true but really false? What does that mean? When atomic theory first came out Eddington argued that a solid table is mostly empty space; so it's not solid at all! Now everyone knows what a solid table is; you can put stuff on it and it won't fall through. That's how we define the terms. Atomic theory explains tables, including their solidity; it's produced by the electromagnetic fields between electrons. So there's only the false appearance of paradox. Tables = conventional speaking. Paramattha dhammas = atomic theory. Howard says that there's also a synthesizing function. Great. Please build me a table. >You say "Some things, such as, apparently, consciousness, are >emergent > properties; they exist only in wholes." Could you explain what >consciousness is and where it emerges from? No, I can't! I'd say that when the brain / CNS reaches a certain level of complexity consciousness manifests, but that's about it. Very probably as an emergent property of matter of a certain complexity, but possibly, on the model of a radio, where matter of some configuration can 'receive' consciousness. I was making a point about reductionism: one gains, one loses. In science it's understood to be a process of *abstraction*. Consequently, while there is a tremendous gain in understanding and power there's also a loss. And some things don't exist in the parts but only in the ensembles. (Your use of the the word "dissect" suggested the Wordsworth quote. He was part of the Romantic movement that rebelled against the aridity of the reductionist Newtonian world view, that took the color out of the rainbow.) metta, stephen 14963 From: <> Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:09am Subject: Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (&Howard an apparition!) Hello Howard, >This does not in any way contradict the >instructions given to Rahula. In fact, all the instructions the Buddha gave, >all the time, involve pa~n~natti and language conventions. They would have >to. There is no verbal communication that does not involve concept. I don't >think anyone here doubts that. Please see my comments to Robert on this. I agree with most of what you wrote but am clearly missing the point. How does conventional language / concepts solve the apparent contradiction? There are people thinking about their actions, acting freely or restraining themselves based upon their reflections, but really not...? >As far as consciousness being an emergent property of matter, well, >that is a materialist theory - a theory, not an indisputable fact. (You, of >course, recognize this, having used the word 'apparently'.) As you know, I >don't view consciousness that way at all, which of course, is no great >matter! ;-)) Nor is it any great matter that I see it this way. (Science certainly doesn't trump Buddhism with this current theory.) >The Buddha, however, didn't see it that way either. He did not have a mind-brain identity theory; I'm prepared to grant this ;-) >Regardless of the realist/phenomenalist debate on the nature of rupa, the Dhamma >views vi~n~nana as a reality or function that is not a behavior of matter, but is a >phenomenon that has no lesser level of "existence" than does rupa. Doesn't really matter, as I see it. He did have a vinnana *always* connected to nama-rupa theory; so you can't pry consciousness off the physical world and give it an independent existence. Consciousness is always of something, connected to a sense. But rupa can be independent of mind. This comes closer to materialism (in fact to Davidson's anomalous monism) than Cartesian dualism, even with a phenomenalist twist. I have no problems saying that mental events cause physical ones; clearly they do, and that's all that's needed. The neat trick, in this free will context (and the one Davidson tu rns, which is why I'm with his version) is not to let the mental get subsumed under deterministic physical laws. Or any others. Both your view and mine have certain perils. Yours is Sati's Fallacy, which runs rampant through Buddhism, especially Thera. Not that you would make this error, but consider: "Everything of every sort may vanish, but that which knows their vanishing doesn't vanish. This vanishes, that vanishes, but the one which knows their vanishing doesn't vanish." Straight From the Heart, Ven. Acariya Maha Boowa, trans. Thanissara Bhikkhu. Give vinnana 'existence' and first thing you know it's reified, independent of the physical, unchanging, verging on a 'self'. At least this is an error my position can't make. I was really just making a point about reductionism, and some things only existing in wholes. >Now, one may accept that or not. It is either the case or not. It is, of course, >perfectly fine for you or anyone to see consciousness as a property or >function of matter, or as somehow emerging from a particular organization of >matter, and I suspect that most Westerners do indeed see things exactly that >way. But consciousness being an emergent property of matter is a modern, >materialist view and is not an element of the Dhamma, at least as I >understand the Dhamma. But, I'm aging, it's compatible. And also with free will, unlike? paramattha theory. metta, stephen 14964 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (& so is Robert!) --- Dear Stephen, I'm getting ready to leave Japan so this has to be brief. I am not really sure of your position or points. I take these two brief quotes from the Visuddhimagga. Do you agree with them. If so we can discuss a bit further; if not we should go back and look at these basic points of Dhamma. "There is no doer of a deed, Or one who reaps the deed's result" (Visuddhimagga XIX 19) "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga Robert <> wrote: > Hello Robert, > > >Dear Stephen, > >Thanks for the reply. I do not see any conflict in what Thein Nyun > >wrote and the Buddhas statement to his son. Do you agree that sometimes the > >Buddha spoke conventionally and therefore used > >terminology such as self and beings etc., but that in an ultimate > >sense there are no beings? > No, I do not. He sometimes spoke conventionally, which meant that he was not > misled by using personal pronouns, names, or by referring to persons and > such. By this I take it to mean that persons don't exist under certain > descriptions, not that they don't exist ultimately; I don't even know what > that could mean. 14965 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:40pm Subject: Re: Cooran weekend - free will Hi Andrew, Thanks for your hospitality on the weekend. You wrote: -------------- > One lesson I learned from the weekend is that studying Abhidhamma is a very confronting process that requires perseverance. It offends one's sense of "self" and mocks one's sense of being in control of one's life. > --------------- It's good, isn't it. :-) You have converted your Buddhism from analogue to digital. :-) --------------- > "'Is the will free or determined?' This could be another of those undecided questions (avyakata),> -------------- Spot the mistake!!! Don't you mean one of those `imponderables' (acinteyya)? (Nit-picking is an accepted practice at dsg -- provided it's done tactfully, of course.) ---------------- > We did discuss free will late at night beside the camp fire. Next morning when the embers were cold, we discussed it again. > --------------- Yes, and the heat returned. Someone was almost boiled in oil for excessive reminders about nama and rupa. ---------------- > As an ignorant worldling saddled with the delusion of atta and having only a weak intellectual understanding of anatta, I find it hard to > see past the thought that "I" am influencing "my" conditions by "deciding" to read Dhamma instead of watching "The Flintstones". > All I feel I can do is continue my Dhamma study, glimpse my ignorance and act in it like an oarsman paddling a rickety raft out into the currents.> ----------------- Join the club. But then, who is this worldling with the saddle in a boat? Isn't there only nama and . . . ------------------ > KenH has a number of questions to post up - if he doesn't change his mind about whether they make sense or not - so I will leave that to him > ----------------- This is not what we agreed! The person who is renowned for being on the wrong wavelength -- off in a world of his own, not on the ball -- should not be given this job. Remember what happened to the toast! ----------------- > and start reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" - again!! > Thanks also to Nina for all her wonderful writing. > ------------------ Yes, Nina, thanks from all of us; what would we do without you? Kind regards Ken H 14966 From: egberdina Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:02pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi everybody, Does anybody have an example of a being that has only a body? And how does rebirth, kusala and akusala apply in these cases where there are no cittas? Thank you in advance Herman --- Larry wrote: > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > Chapter 20 (2) > One of them is the asanna-satta plane > where there is only rupa, not nama. Those who have attained the highest > stage of rupa- jhana and who wish to have no consciousness at all, can > be reborn without citta; for them there is only a body. These beings > have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even happiness is a > disadvantage, since it does not last. > 14967 From: robmoult Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi Herman, I think it is realm 22 of the 31 realms, the non-percipient realm. It has been described as beings existing as stone statues. They remain in that state, without generating any additional kamma, until the reproductive kamma that sent them there expires (500 Great Aeons; where one Great Aeon = 4 times an Incalcualable Aeon; and one Incalculable Aeon = 20 times the duration for human lifespan to change from 10 years to an indefinite time and back to 10 years). After their reproductive kamma expires (an incredibly long time by any measure), they are spontaneously reborn in some other realm. Remind you of Rip Van Winkle? This is another one of those parts of the Dhamma that I have a tough time believeing. But I don't think my lack of believe of this aspect is holding back my spiritual process :-) . Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "egberdina" wrote: > Hi everybody, > > Does anybody have an example of a being that has only a body? And how > does rebirth, kusala and akusala apply in these cases where there are > no cittas? > > Thank you in advance > > > Herman > > --- Larry wrote: > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > > Chapter 20 (2) > > > One of them is the asanna-satta plane > > where there is only rupa, not nama. Those who have attained the > highest > > stage of rupa- jhana and who wish to have no consciousness at all, > can > > be reborn without citta; for them there is only a body. These beings > > have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even happiness is a > > disadvantage, since it does not last. > > 14968 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:50pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi Herman, I think that an 'unconscious being' (asaññasatta), consisting only of rupa, would die when the conditions were right that this should happen. He/she would be reborn where his/her as yet unexpended kamma, accumulated from beginningless time, decrees - as Buddhists believe happens with all of us, all the time. I don't know if an unconscious being accumulates more kusala or akusala, but, if not, there is still plenty in the 'kamma bank'. The Thirty One Planes of Existence are listed on: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/loka.html with the cause of rebirth as an 'unconscious being' listed as 'the fourth Jhana'. I wonder what that means? ATI: "It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or whether they are merely fanciful metaphors describing the various mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of this cosmology is simply this: unless we take steps to break free of the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly, with genuine peace and satisfaction always out of reach. The Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path provides us with precisely the tools we need to break out of this cycle, once and for all, to true freedom." What do you reckon? metta, Christine --- "egberdina" wrote: > Hi everybody, > > Does anybody have an example of a being that has only a body? And how > does rebirth, kusala and akusala apply in these cases where there are > no cittas? > > Thank you in advance > > > Herman > > --- Larry wrote: > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > > Chapter 20 (2) > > > One of them is the asanna-satta plane > > where there is only rupa, not nama. Those who have attained the > highest > > stage of rupa- jhana and who wish to have no consciousness at all, > can > > be reborn without citta; for them there is only a body. These beings > > have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even happiness is a > > disadvantage, since it does not last. > > 14969 From: TG Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! In a message dated 8/12/2002 9:46:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hello Robert, all > In the Ambalatthikarahulovada sutta (at MN.i.416) the Buddha tells Rahula > that any action of the mind, speech, or body should be done only after > repeated reflection before, during and after. If such reflection shows the > action to lead to affliction of others or oneself one should definitely not > do it. If it does not one may do it. This advice clearly entails that one > has > time to reflect (not milliseconds, as Christine recently posted), that one > should care to reflect through out the performance of the action, and that > one is free to act or not upon one's reflections (i.e., adequately in > control). > The above demonstrates that it is not Rahula's "free will" that provides wisdom in performing actions, it is rather the condition of the Buddha's education that "drives those skillful actions." Buddha's teaching is a key condition for Rahula. Rahula's (and our) acts will be based on past and present conditioning. The amount of time deliberating them is irrelevant to the issue of free will. If an American flag is raised three people could have three totally different reactions. One may experience hate. Another patriotic fervor. Another complete neutrality. These reactions are based on past conditioning, not free will. Rahula's ability to "chose" wisely will also be based on past conditioning. Ultimately it is the conditions that do the "chosing," not a "person." TG 14970 From: egberdina Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:53pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi Chris, Rob M et al, I agree with both of you that what we understand by these descriptions of realities in various states is not exactly the main game. But pondering these matters can shed light on other related matters, don't you think? For example: I of course know zilch about asannasatta, and I know an equal amount about rebirth. But it is said that the thought at death determines the plane of existence in which the next thought takes place. I presume asannasatta have no thought at death. Where are they reborn, and why? I am happy to conclude that neither thoughts of planes of existence or thoughts of rebirth are the main game. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the study of things that cannot be altered is utterly futile. What do you reckon about that :-) All the best Herman --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I think that an 'unconscious being' (asaññasatta), consisting only > of > rupa, would die when the conditions were right that this should > happen. He/she would be reborn where his/her as yet unexpended > kamma, accumulated from beginningless time, decrees - as Buddhists > believe happens with all of us, all the time. I don't know if an > unconscious being accumulates more kusala or akusala, but, if not, > there is still plenty in the 'kamma bank'. > > The Thirty One Planes of Existence are listed on: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/loka.html with the cause of > rebirth as an 'unconscious being' listed as 'the fourth Jhana'. I > wonder what that means? > > ATI: "It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or > whether they are merely fanciful metaphors describing the various > mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of > this cosmology is simply this: unless we take steps to break free of > the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly, with > genuine peace and satisfaction always out of reach. The Buddha's > Noble Eightfold Path provides us with precisely the tools we need to > break out of this cycle, once and for all, to true freedom." > What do you reckon? > metta, > Christine > > --- "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > > > Does anybody have an example of a being that has only a body? And > how > > does rebirth, kusala and akusala apply in these cases where there > are > > no cittas? > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > > > Herman > > 14971 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (&Howard an apparition!) Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 8/13/02 11:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hello Howard, > > >This does not in any way contradict the > >instructions given to Rahula. In fact, all the instructions the Buddha > gave, > >all the time, involve pa~n~natti and language conventions. They would have > > >to. There is no verbal communication that does not involve concept. I > don't > >think anyone here doubts that. > Please see my comments to Robert on this. I agree with most of what you > wrote > but am clearly missing the point. How does conventional language / concepts > > solve the apparent contradiction? There are people thinking about their > actions, acting freely or restraining themselves based upon their > reflections, but really not...? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see a contradiction. One can use the dream analogy. In a dream I sit down at a hard table (which I feel) and eat a delicious meal (which I taste and enjoy). Did it happen? Yes and no. What is the "yes"? I really had pretty much the usual visual/mental experience of a table and truly experienced hardness (but only through the mind), I pretty much had the usual visual/tactile/olfactory/gustatory/mental experience of eating food and I truly experienced the elementary visual, tactile, olfactory, and gustatory events involved (but only through the mind), and all that made this different from ordinary waking experience apparently were the occasional, possible elements of unreality (such as fuzziness, rapid scene changes etc), and the observation after the fact that this wasn't "real" in the sense that the experience was mine only (not shared with other folks) and that it was mind-only (i.e., conception only) with only apparent involvement of the other senses. In describing our ordinary waking perception, the Buddha has used the simile of a magic show, which Bhikkhu ~Nanananda has picked up on and made great use of in his Magic of the Mind, a commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta. If you haven't seen this little book, I strongly recommend it. As far as a contradiction being involved, I see none. The conventional/pa~n~natti level of description is, as I see it, and as I already explained in a previous post, is a knowledge-packed short-cut level of understanding/communicating which serves to sum up (or package) the elements of experience and their interrlationships. It is a perfectly useful and understandable level of thought and communication, and it enables us to accomplish things that would not be possible without it. One might use an admittedly weak analogy from mathematics, where one axiomatically presents the elements of a theory. It is those axiomatic elements that are the given, direct elements of the theory. But the mathematician then goes on to combine these elements into higher-level defined objects and relations, and reasons with them as a matter of efficiency. To proceed with theorem proving without further, higher-level definition, would just be too hard a task. (Am I clear in this analogy?) Getting back to the instructions to Rahula, we can, indeed, exercise control over ourselves, guard the senses, exercise mindfulness and clear comprehension, consider before, while, and after acting etc, etc But all this, this "I", this guarding the senses, this exercising control, this considering - all this is merely useful manner of speaking. There is no core to be found corresponding to the term 'I', there are no senses to guard, but only fleeting sense events. The whole matter is useful, summative, metaphor, or, if you will, extraordinarily complex definitional language, with the definitions never being made explicit. --------------------------------------------------------------- > >As far as consciousness being an emergent property of matter, well, > >that is a materialist theory - a theory, not an indisputable fact. (You, > of > >course, recognize this, having used the word 'apparently'.) As you know, I > > >don't view consciousness that way at all, which of course, is no great > >matter! ;-)) > Nor is it any great matter that I see it this way. > (Science certainly doesn't trump Buddhism with this current theory.) > > >The Buddha, however, didn't see it that way either. > He did not have a mind-brain identity theory; I'm prepared to grant this > ;-) > > >Regardless of the realist/phenomenalist debate on the nature of rupa, the > Dhamma views vi~n~nana as a reality or function that is not a behavior of > matter, but is a > >phenomenon that has no lesser level of "existence" than does rupa. > Doesn't really matter, as I see it. He did have a vinnana *always* > connected > to nama-rupa theory; so you can't pry consciousness off the physical world > and give it an independent existence. Consciousness is always of something, > > connected to a sense. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I completely agree. Subject and object are interdependent. there is no consciousness that is not consciousness of something (even in the case of nibbanic consciousness, which seems to be the discernment of an absence - the very absence being the "object"). -------------------------------------------------------- But rupa can be independent of mind. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Abhidhamma seems to agree. Please see the discussions I had with Jon on this matter, and my take on unobserved rupas. As I see it, even unobserved rupas fundamentally depend on vi~n~nana. ------------------------------------------------- This comes closer > > to materialism (in fact to Davidson's anomalous monism) than Cartesian > dualism, even with a phenomenalist twist. I have no problems saying that > mental events cause physical ones; clearly they do, and that's all that's > needed. The neat trick, in this free will context (and the one Davidson tu > rns, which is why I'm with his version) is not to let the mental get > subsumed > under deterministic physical laws. Or any others. > Both your view and mine have certain perils. Yours is Sati's Fallacy, which > > runs rampant through Buddhism, especially Thera. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My fallacies, whatever they include, do NOT include Sati's fallacy. I do NOT see consciousness/discernment as some thing/substance that continues or is passed along or is reborn. I see it as a function/operation/process/event, instances of which occur and always arise afresh,conditioned by past events. Discerning of an object occurs now, conditioned by previous events - no "self-same consciousness is reborn". ------------------------------------------------------------ Not that you would make this > > error, but consider: "Everything of every sort may vanish, but that which > knows their vanishing doesn't vanish. This vanishes, that vanishes, but the > > one which knows their vanishing doesn't vanish." Straight From the Heart, > en. Acariya Maha Boowa, trans. Thanissara Bhikkhu. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. I don't think this way. Not only is there no "one" which knows the vanishing but does not, itself, vanish, but also, there is no continuing consciousness that does this. There are just consciousness events which arise/occur in dependence on causes and conditions. --------------------------------------------------------- Give vinnana 'existence' > > and first thing you know it's reified, independent of the physical, > unchanging, verging on a 'self'. At least this is an error my position > can't > make. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: And it is not an error that I make. I neither reify subject nor object, at least not at the belief level of mind. At a more subtle level, of course I DO make these errors - only an arahant is free of them at the deepest levels of mind. --------------------------------------------------- > I was really just making a point about reductionism, and some things only > existing in wholes. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Just for the record, viewing consciousness as an emergent property of matter/matrial organization is a form of reductionism! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > >Now, one may accept that or not. It is either the case or not. It is, of > course, > >perfectly fine for you or anyone to see consciousness as a property or > >function of matter, or as somehow emerging from a particular organization > of > >matter, and I suspect that most Westerners do indeed see things exactly > that > >way. But consciousness being an emergent property of matter is a modern, > >materialist view and is not an element of the Dhamma, at least as I > >understand the Dhamma. > But, I'm aging, it's compatible. And also with free will, unlike? > paramattha > theory. > > metta, stephen > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14972 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (&Howard an apparition!) Hi Howard, Stephen, and all, Perhaps the question is not much whether guarding the senses and self- control are merely useful manner of speaking. Perhaps the question is whether guarding the senses and self-control, when undertaken and observed, leads to benefit and happiness. Metta, Victor > Getting back to the instructions to Rahula, we can, indeed, exercise > control over ourselves, guard the senses, exercise mindfulness and clear > comprehension, consider before, while, and after acting etc, etc But all > this, this "I", this guarding the senses, this exercising control, this > considering - all this is merely useful manner of speaking. There is no core > to be found corresponding to the term 'I', there are no senses to guard, but > only fleeting sense events. The whole matter is useful, summative, metaphor, > or, if you will, extraordinarily complex definitional language, with the > definitions never being made explicit. 14973 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales Dear Frank, Can't resist. > -----Original Message----- > > > > 'fraid I can't help you Chris. When I came to > paradise, all I brought was ESSENTIAL reading material > :) > What paradise? I thought they were all nama and rupa! :-) Isn't Internet great? Always lots of materials: only if we can compensate lack of panna with the incredible availability of materials... I used to live in Honolulu for a few years. Really nice place to go jogging and swimming... 14974 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (&Howard an apparition!) Hi, Victor (and Stephen) - In a message dated 8/14/02 10:41:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Hi Howard, Stephen, and all, > > Perhaps the question is not much whether guarding the senses and self- > control are merely useful manner of speaking. > Perhaps the question is whether guarding the senses and self-control, > when undertaken and observed, leads to benefit and happiness. > > Metta, > Victor ================================= Well, I for one, I have no doubt Stephen as well, do not consider this questionable at all. For *sure* guarding the senses and self-control, when undertaken and observed, lead to benefit and happiness!! With metta, Howard > > > Getting back to the instructions to Rahula, we can, indeed, > exercise > > control over ourselves, guard the senses, exercise mindfulness and > clear > > comprehension, consider before, while, and after acting etc, etc > But all > > this, this "I", this guarding the senses, this exercising control, > this > > considering - all this is merely useful manner of speaking. There > is no core > > to be found corresponding to the term 'I', there are no senses to > guard, but > > only fleeting sense events. The whole matter is useful, summative, > metaphor, > > or, if you will, extraordinarily complex definitional language, > with the > > definitions never being made explicit. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14975 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello, Jonothan, Looking forward to your visit this weekend. As usual, am behind on the posts (have been editing material for the Foundation website). However, you mention in digest 1008, when discussing the phenomenalist view v. the pragmatic that: _______________________ > > I'm don't know if you're implying this, but the teachings do not > > urge us to 'posit the existence of unknowable things'. It is simply > > that the conditions by which rupas are said to arise, and the fact > > that they are said to arise in groups, clearly indicates that the > > abhidhamma perspective is that rupas do arise at times other > > than when they are the object of consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------------------- >Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand why, if rupas arise in groups, that it indicates that they do arise at times when they are not the object of consciousness. Please explain. metta, Betty 14976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perversions, to Rob and Ken Dear Robert K and Ken H, As Rob writes, the sotapanna has eradicated the perversions of ditthi, sanna and citta which take the non-self as self. He has no perception of self, but instead anatta sanna. I checked this with the Path of Discrimination. Its commentary states that sanna, citta and ditthi have different strengths: < The perversion of sanna is the weakest in strength of all three. The perversion of citta has more strength than the perversion of sanna. The perversion of ditthi has the greatest strength of all three.> Now I intersperse some remarks below in Ken's questions. op 09-08-2002 13:55 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op robertk: > --- > Dear Ken, > > I'd like to hear what Nina says about this. The sotapanna has > eliminated the four types of consciousness associated with > ditthi (ditthigatasampayuttam)- these types of dhamma can never > arise; but still has the four with ditthigatavippayuttam and these > will keep arising very frequently. > One thing I am not sure on is whether the atta vipallasa at the > level of sanna and citta counts as 'ditthigatasampayuttam' citta. > Probably it does and so for a non-ariyan this type of citta will > still frequently arise. > However, I think the vipallasa at the level of wrong view because it > is so coarse is much less frequent for those who have considered > correctly and deeply. > Robert > > "kenhowardau" wrote: Robert wrote: >> --------- >>> I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and >> considered >> deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not >> arise often (this is a coarse belief) but other levels >> do; depending on the >> degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > >>>> Ken: When you say it doesn't arise often, do you mean only >> once or twice per day or do you mean only once or >> twice per milli-second? >> >> Millions of paramattha dhammas come and go in the >> blink of an eye; I had assumed that there would be >> conditions for just about all of them to appear in >> that time, some in more significant proportions than >> others, of course. Have I picked up a wrong >> impression there? Nina: So long as we are not sotapannas, we still have the latent tendency of wrong view. It can condition its arising together with lobha-mula-citta at any time. Panna has to be keen to discern it, and also, we have to be very sincere, we need the perfection of truthfulness. There can easily be the form of ditthi which is wrong practice. For example, when we take thinking of nama and rupa for right mindfulness. Are we trying to have mindfulness, just a little trying, or do we imagine that when in a Dhamma situation with Dhamma discussions, there is more mindfulness? Do we want more? Do we want to promote sati? We cannot catch the moments of ditthi, nor could we ever count them. We know ditthi is bound to arise, but it depends on panna whether such moments are known as only nama. Otherwise we get stuck. Best wishes from Nina. 14977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and dukkha in life. Dear Jinavamsa, You are right in as far I was talking about no 3, only, realities are not theorized about in the Abhidhamma. I would not use the word theory at all for the Abhidhamma. Cakkhuvinnana anicca, seeing is impermanent. This is no theory, because there is seeing now, arising because of visible object impinging on the eyesense. What arises because of conditions has to fall away immediately. As you say, (no 1) it is the third part of the Tipitaka, but it is not abstract at all. The Abhidhamma is about what appears right now and it can be verified. The Abhidhamma describes many details that we cannot verify now as ordinary people, and besides the wisdom of the Buddha is incomparable. But there are many, many realities that can be studied with awareness now. We can begin. People may think of the book of the Abhidhamma, but A. Sujin often says, to remind us: The Buddha taught Abhidhamma also in the suttas. He spoke about the dukkha in life. Herman described this so well, his description of dukkha is like it is explained in the suttas (thank you, Herman). The Buddha wanted to tell people: each moment now is dukkha, even the thinking about suffering, it arises because of conditions and then falls away immediately, thus it is dukkha. Nobody can cause its arising or control it. It arises even though one does not want it or has fear because of it. There is a way out of dukkha: the Buddha taught us to develop understanding of this very moment, its arising and falling away. The three parts of the Tipitaka are one, they are in conformity with each other. With appreciation, Nina. op 12-08-2002 22:49 schreef jinavamsa op <>: > > In reading the passage below, I sense that the term Abhidhamma > could mean: > (1) the third part of the Tipitaka, the Abhidhamma-pitaka; > (2) the subject matter of that Basket, Abhidhamma as > a particular theory (sometimes described as Abstract > Psychology, as Bechert), and; > (3) the experiential realities that are being described > and theorized about in the Abhidhamma-pitaka and related > texts. > > So, when you talk of not (being able to) escape abhidhamma, > I take it that this is in the third sense of the term above. > Clearly most of the world gets by with no familiarity or > study of the abhidhamma in the first sense, and I suspect > that most do not theorize (think abstractly and in generality, > with a systematic style to it all) about mind processes. 14978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Larry, I intersperse my reactions below. op 10-08-2002 20:26 schreef <> op <>: L: could we say that samatha samadhi is the beginning of > understanding the three characteristics in so far as it suppresses the > hindrances, craving for rupa qualities, ill will, sloth & torpor, > restlessness & remorse, and doubt? N: When we read about the three characteristics it means characteristics of paramattha dhammas, of nama and rupa. In Samatha the object of citta is a meditation subject and its aim is temporary calm. In order to understand the three characteristics insight has to be developed through awareness of nama and rupa, thus, of realities appearing through the six doors, at the present moment. First nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa, and later on their arising and falling away can be realized. Thus, the subduing of the hindrances in samatha is not the beginning of understanding of the three characteristics. We have to see the difference between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. Different ways of development with different objectives. L: And further that this is worked > toward (if not accomplished) by the discipline of onepointed focus which > limits papanca and the nonclinging of tranquility? N: See above. When the citta is jhanacitta akusala dhammas do not arise, but only panna developed through awareness of nama and rupa can eradicate them. Also the hindrances and the papancas which arise again after the jhanacvitta has fallen away have to be known as non-self, otherwise they cannot be eradicated. L: Also, what is the relationship between panna and the hindrances? Does > panna only arise after nibbana? N: Panna is gradually developed from life to life. First it is of the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding of the dhammas of your life: nama and rupa. Understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa, understanding what defilements are, what kusala dhammas are. Then, panna can begin to with awareness characteristics of nama and rupa that appear now. This is the beginning of patipatti, the level of practice. Is there no seeing? it has a characteristic. Is there no hearing? It has a characteristic. Evenso, attachment, aversion, metta, they each have their own characteristic and these characteristics can be directly known and understood. Very gradually nama can be known as nama and rupa as rupa, and stages of insight can arise, we do not know when. It takes so many lives, but we do not mind. The teachings are still available and we are grateful for each slight amount of understanding. Panna can grow, and one day it can become panna of the level of pativedha, the penetration of the four noble Truths. Lokuttara panna arises, panna which experience the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. Thus, this answers the end of your Q. The relationship between panna and the hindrances: Panna can eradicate these completely, at the different stages of enlightenment. There can be no question of eradicating any hindrance when it is still , thus, my lobha, my dosa. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated. Perhaps it is not easy to see whether there is my lobha, my dosa. We notice these akusala dhammas, but do we realize when there is an idea of self inherent in them? For example: lobha arises, and we have aversion about it, do not want to have it or to control it. should not have it. We have to investigate the different cittas that arise, but it is not easy. Only panna can. Best wishes from Nina. 14979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:00am Subject: The Perfections, Ch IV, Renunciation, no. 3 Perfections, Ch IV, no 3, Renunciation: We read further on about the sage Nanda¹s thoughts: He thought, He was wondering how he should achieve this. He thought that in order to ask his brother forgiveness, he would bring Sakka, the King of the devas, from the heaven of the Thirtythree, but he found this improper. Since he and his brother were still in this world, it was more suitable to bring the chief King Manoja who resided in Brahmavaddhana and who was more powerful than the other Kings. He would tell King Manoja that he wanted to ask his brother forgiveness. When he had thought about this he went to the palace of King Manoja and said, Finally, Nanda could ask his brother forgiveness and was forgiven by him. The Bodhisatta let the sage Nanda look after their mother whereas he looked after their father for as long as they lived. The Bodhisatta taught Dhamma with the graceful poise of a Buddha to King Manoja: Thus, if someone does not give assistance to one¹s parents in this way, he has no reverence for his parents. We read further on: The parents should be revered, and the wise approve of the man in whom these virtues may be found. They say that the parents are like Brahma, they own a high position and are worthy of respect. Therefore, the wise give respect to them and honour them with service, providing them with food, drink, clothing, beds, by bathing and anointing them, and washing their feet, Sages praise in this world people who look after their parents in this way, and when they part from this world they will rejoice in heaven. The other perfections should also be taken into consideration. The Bodhisatta was a person who did not pay attention at all to sense pleasures, he had the highest degree of respect for his parents, and he never tired of looking after them. Even though he still had to take care of them, he still used every opportunity to dedicate himself to attaining jhåna. Another perfection we should develop in daily life is the perfection of energy, viriya. When the Bodhisatta searched for good fruits to offer to his parents, he needed to have endurance and energy. When we think of the ten perfections in our case, we should consider how our conduct is in the present life that has followed upon our lives of the past and that is conditioned by our accumulations in the past. One life was succeeded by a following life without interruption, and we were born into different births as such or such person in such or such place. 14980 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales Hi Kom, Yes hawaii is awesome. Do you guys meet in the bay area on a regular basis every month? If so, next near when I visit my folks in Northern Cal I might stop by. -fk 14981 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:44am Subject: cheetahless rupas Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) --- egberdina wrote: > Hi everybody, > > Does anybody have an example of a being that has > only a body? And how > does rebirth, kusala and akusala apply in these > cases where there are > no cittas? > You mean like a potted plant, a tree, or George Bush? -fk 14982 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales Hi Frank, There is one official (and one unofficial) English session, and two Thai sessions a week. Please do send a message when you stop by. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: frank kuan [mailto:<>] > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:24 PM > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jataka Tales > > > Hi Kom, > Yes hawaii is awesome. Do you guys meet in the bay > area on a regular basis every month? If so, next near > when I visit my folks in Northern Cal I might stop by. > > -fk 14983 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 6:27am Subject: ADL ch. 20 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 20 (3) As we have seen, not only akusala cittas, but also ahetuka cittas are asobhana cittas (cittas which are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas). As regards the asobhana cittas which are ahetuka, the ahetuka cittas which arise in a process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors, can arise only in the planes where there are sense-impressions. Seeing-consciousness and hearing-consciousness arise in the eleven sensuous planes of existence (the four woeful planes, the human being plane and the six heavenly planes which are sensuous planes: the deva planes) and they arise also in fifteen rupa-brahma planes, thus they arise in twenty-six planes of existence. Smelling-consciousness, tasting-consciousness and body-consciousness arise only in the eleven sensuous planes. Thus, they do not arise in the rupa-brahma planes or in the arupa-brahma planes. Panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness), sampaticchana-citta (receiving- consciousness) and santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness) arise in all planes where there are sense- impressions, thus they arise in twenty-six planes (in the eleven sensuous planes and in fifteen rupa- brahma planes; the rupa-brahma plane which is the asanna-satta plane is excepted). The mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) arises in all planes where there is nama, thus it arises in thirty planes. People are inclined to speculate about the place where they will be reborn. Would we like to be reborn in the human plane? We cling to life in the human plane and we do not always realize the many moments of akusala vipaka we are bound to receive in this world: we are threatened by calamities such as war and hunger, there is sickness, old age and death. Some people would like to be reborn in a heavenly plane; they like to experience pleasant things through the senses. One may wish for rebirth in a heavenly plane, but whether or not this will happen depend on one's kamma. Birth is result, it does not take place without cause. If one performs many good deeds one cultivates the cause which will bring a pleasant result; but there is no way to know when the result will take place, this is beyond control. Are we afraid of death? Most people want to prolong their lives. They fear death because they feel uncertain of the future. If one is not an ariyan there may be rebirth in hell. We do not like to think of rebirth in a woeful plane, but there may be deeds performed in the past which can still cause rebirth in hell. Even the Buddha was in one of his former lives born in hell. It is useless to think of hell with aversion and fear, but the thought of hell is helpful when it reminds us to cultivate kusala at this moment, instead of akusala. 14984 From: robmoult Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:13am Subject: Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi Herman, "Grant me the strength to change the things that I can change, the patience to accept the things that I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference." If the object of the "study of things that cannot be altered" is to have the "wisdom to known the difference" then, I think it is useful. Of course, in the mundane world, it is often necessary to study things that cannot be altered (history, gravity, etc.). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "egberdina" wrote: > I am happy to conclude that neither thoughts of planes of existence > or thoughts of rebirth are the main game. In fact, I would go so far > as to say that the study of things that cannot be altered is utterly > futile. > > What do you reckon about that :-) 14985 From: jinavamsa Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and dukkha in life. hi Nina, thank you for your reply to this. I see nothing that I at all disagree with. But there is the question of what the "abstract" (in the term Abstract Psychology) amounts to here. I was just using the term in the way that Heinz Bechert once did, describing the Abhidhamma (back in 1974-75, when I attended some of his courses and had a chance to talk with him through time, in person). So, in the way that Herman is talking of the Buddha's teaching abhidhamma throughout the suttas, for example, these would perhaps be abstract in the sense of being applied beyond the particular instances. This would be the way Hume spoke of using a particular triangle in geometry to draw conclusions about triangles in general (by not basing any comments on something particular to the triangle being used to investigate triangles). So, when we speak of all of conditioned experience being dukkha, this is not something that we experience in its fullness, so to speak. It is something we may come to appreciate through a huge, sad sampling! (It of course generalizes beyond the finite set of experiences of any individual.) But if this sense of abstract, which makes sense of Bechert's terminology for me, is not applicable, I would withdraw that description here. thank you for taking the time to give such a helpful reply. Jinavamsa --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jinavamsa, > You are right in as far I was talking about no 3, only, realities are not > theorized about in the Abhidhamma. I would not use the word theory at all > for the Abhidhamma. > Cakkhuvinnana anicca, seeing is impermanent. This is no theory, because > there is seeing now, arising because of visible object impinging on the > eyesense. What arises because of conditions has to fall away immediately. As > you say, (no 1) it is the third part of the Tipitaka, but it is not abstract > at all. The Abhidhamma is about what appears right now and it can be > verified. The Abhidhamma describes many details that we cannot verify now as > ordinary people, and besides the wisdom of the Buddha is incomparable. But > there are many, many realities that can be studied with awareness now. We > can begin. > People may think of the book of the Abhidhamma, but A. Sujin often says, to > remind us: > The Buddha taught Abhidhamma also in the suttas. He spoke about the dukkha > in life. Herman described this so well, his description of dukkha is like it > is explained in the suttas (thank you, Herman). The Buddha wanted to tell > people: each moment now is dukkha, even the thinking about suffering, it > arises because of conditions and then falls away immediately, thus it is > dukkha. Nobody can cause its arising or control it. It arises even though > one does not want it or has fear because of it. There is a way out of > dukkha: the Buddha taught us to develop understanding of this very moment, > its arising and falling away. The three parts of the Tipitaka are one, they > are in conformity with each other. > With appreciation, > Nina. > > op 12-08-2002 22:49 schreef jinavamsa op <>: > > > > In reading the passage below, I sense that the term Abhidhamma > > could mean: > > (1) the third part of the Tipitaka, the Abhidhamma-pitaka; > > (2) the subject matter of that Basket, Abhidhamma as > > a particular theory (sometimes described as Abstract > > Psychology, as Bechert), and; > > (3) the experiential realities that are being described > > and theorized about in the Abhidhamma-pitaka and related > > texts. > > > > So, when you talk of not (being able to) escape abhidhamma, > > I take it that this is in the third sense of the term above. > > Clearly most of the world gets by with no familiarity or > > study of the abhidhamma in the first sense, and I suspect > > that most do not theorize (think abstractly and in generality, > > with a systematic style to it all) about mind processes. 14986 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:51am Subject: Re: Reflection (Victor) Hello Victor, >Thank you, Stephen, for the reference to MN.i.416* >Metta, >Victor You're quite welcome, and thank you for your comment on the ongoing posts today. >Perhaps the question is not much whether guarding the senses and self- >control are merely useful manner of speaking. >Perhaps the question is whether guarding the senses and self-control, >when undertaken and observed, leads to benefit and happiness. Yes, and that's pretty much what the Buddha told Rahula to reflect on before acting. Reflecting on this myself, and the probable futility of continuing to try to explain my position, I'm thinking of just holding my rejoinder. Rather I'm pulling my hair in frustration that people can't see the problem, or knocking myself on the head because I can't see the answer, it may not be leading to my benefit and happiness ;-) Not to mention others. If I were only free to act upon my reflections... metta, stephen 14987 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, fading away. Dear Nina, thanks for these clarifications. not so easy to grasp. I will be very interested to see the corresponding comments from the commentaries and your explanations. whenever you are able. Thanks for taking on this subject. Best, Robert Ep. ========== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > I shall react to your comments below. I also find the study useful, it helps > me to consider this difficult subject more. > op 10-08-2002 08:55 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > > N: If he does not realize the difference between pure kusala citta and > >> subtle clinging, he may believe that sensuous desire, one of the hindrances, > >> is suppressed, but instead of coarse covetousness he still has subtle > >> clinging to calm, thus there is still that hindrance. > > > R: I would think that developing the ability to discern clinging makes a > decisive > > difference in every aspect of the path. > N: You said it! > > N:We read VIII, 223-224 about the following stages of insight up to > >> arahatship. He sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the body and > >> the mind as their origin. He defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the > >> body as rupa and the citta and cetasikas as nama. Here we have to be > >> careful: he is not mindful of the body as a whole, but of rupas of the body > >> as they appear one at a time. > > > R: just curious: how does this harmonize with the Buddha's stanzas in the > > anapanasati sutta on being mindful of 'the whole body' while breathing? Is it > > a > > different sort of situation with the jhanas or is this a contradiction? > N: This is the breathing body, the body of inbreaths and outbreaths. See > Vis. VIII, 171.172. And VII, 197: the navel is the beginning of the wind > issuing out, the heart is the middle, the nosetip is the end. And of the air > going in is the opposite. Thus see the different use of the term body. He > is mindful of it, but this is mindfulness of the level of samatha, not > mindfulness of vipassana which is mindfulness of only one reality at a time, > not of a whole, not of the whole body. He is still training, no jhana yet. > The difficulty is, that when there is more calm the breath will become less > and less manifest. That is why this subject is so difficult. When he attains > jhana the object is a nimitta of breath as was stated. > When after emerging from jhana insight is developed he can be aware of only > one nama or rupa at a time, not of the whole body. > > More about this later on in the Co to the > >> anapasati sutta. > > N: As regards the clause: 3(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out > >> contemplating fading away, the Visuddhimagga states that there are two > >> kinds of fading away, namely: fading away as destruction which is the > >> momentary dissolution of formations (conditioned realities) and absolute > >> fading away which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: > >> > >> Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur > >> as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold > >> contemplation that it can be understood of him He trains thus, I shall > >> breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away. > >> > > > R: when one contemplates the fading away that is nibbana, is this > contemplating > > an > > object that is not there, since I assume he is not in the presence of nibbana? > > is > > it thus conceptual in nature? > N: No, it is not a concept of nibbana. Since he has developed all stages of > insight he experiences nibbana. As we read: it is insight, it is the Path. > He has emerged from jhana and then he attains enlightenment. The lokuttara > cittas which experience nibbana are accompanied by appana samadhi, > concentration that can be compared to the attainment concentration of jhana, > but now the object is not a nimitta (as in mundane jhana) but the paramattha > dhamma which is nibbana. Depending on how many stages of (mundane) jhana he > had realized, the lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhanafactors of the > different stages of jhana. He has in that case lokuttara jhanacittas. > > > Vis: Giving up is the giving up of defilements, and entering into is the > >> entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. Also this clause pertains > >> to insight alone. > > > R: Again, is Nibbana the present object of this citta, or is it > contemplation of > > the > > concept or idea of Nibbana in this case? > N: This clause pertains to insight alone, thus, the object is not a concept. > Nibbana is the object, it is directly experienced. > > Now I shall look at the Co, but it has to be in slow snail's space. > Best wishes > from Nina. 14988 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi Herman,Rob M, and All, Recently there was some discussion regarding the importance of the few moments of consciousness before death in determining where a future rebirth would occur, the 'fairness' of this, and whether or not there could be any real control of these moments and hence of the next destination. The on-line book "Dying to Live" which Rob M. told us about is very helpful regarding the Abhidhamma perspective and the role of kamma in dying and rebirth. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm The mind state at death is said to influence the plane of rebirth. In the absence of thoughts as with an 'unconscious being' (asannasatta) one would suppose that as Aggacitta Bhikkhu says: "in the absence of weighty kamma, near-death kamma and habitual kamma, Reserve Kamma plays the role of generating rebirth. The word "reserve" here is actually a contextual rendering of the Pali word 'katatta' which literally means "because it was or had been done". This type of kamma actually refers to all deeds that have been done in the present lifetime which are not included in weighty, near-death or habitual kammas, AS WELL AS OTHER DEEDS THAT WERE DONE IN PAST LIFETIMES." (my capitals). I think study is beneficial as a clarifying tool even of things that cannot be altered. We study the Solar System - not because we think we are able or would wish to alter it - but because we know that one day we will travel/live there. The study helps us to understand the conditions necessary for getting where we hope to go with the best possible outcome. Reckon that makes sense Herman? :) metta, Christine --- "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Chris, Rob M et al, > > I agree with both of you that what we understand by these > descriptions of realities in various states is not exactly the main > game. But pondering these matters can shed light on other related > matters, don't you think? For example: > > I of course know zilch about asannasatta, and I know an equal amount > about rebirth. But it is said that the thought at death determines > the plane of existence in which the next thought takes place. I > presume asannasatta have no thought at death. Where are they reborn, > and why? > > I am happy to conclude that neither thoughts of planes of existence > or thoughts of rebirth are the main game. In fact, I would go so far > as to say that the study of things that cannot be altered is utterly > futile. > > What do you reckon about that :-) > > All the best > > > Herman 14989 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Anguttara Nikaya Book of Two's 15. 'Repaying One's Parents' Dear All, I acknowledge that many parents love and care for their children with great sacrifice and devotion, as I always try to do, and as I hope do all the parents on this List. But, in this world, very many parents do not behave lovingly or even humanely. Not just a few occasional exceptions, but very many. Parents are often the major cause of harm to children physically and mentally, and are the one's responsible for most acts of gross neglect and abuse, assault, manslaughter and murder of children. I feel that the general 'unqualified' exhortation to give unlimited respect, honour and service to one's parents could be the condition for distress in those who have suffered greatly at their parents hands, and are now attempting to follow the Teachings. It seems to be based on an idealised version of what parents should be or could be, rather than the reality of what many actually are. For many children, the parents were just the unwilling gateway into this world of suffering. When I read teachings such as those in the sutta below, I wonder if it is not a little naive, and could the Buddha have meant it to apply generally no matter how appalling the parents actions were, or did he mean where parents actually did bring up, feed and guide their children lovingly through this world? Anguttara Nikaya Book of Two's 15. 'Repaying One's Parents' "I declare, O monks, that there are two person's one can never repay. What two? One's mother and father. Even if one should carry about one's mother on one should er and one's father on the other, and while doing so should live a hundred years, reach the age of a hundred years; and if one should attend to them by anointing them with salves, by massaging, bathing and rubbing their limbs, and they should even void their excrements there - even by that would one not do enough for one's parents, one would not repay them. Even if one were to establish one's parents as the supreme lords and rulers over this earth so rich in the seven treasures, one would not do enough for them, one would not repay them. What is the reason for this? Parents do much for their children: they bring them up, feed them and guide them through this world." metta, Christine 14990 From: azita gill Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) --- egberdina wrote: > Hi everybody, > > Does anybody have an example of a being that has > only a body? And how > does rebirth, kusala and akusala apply in these > cases where there are > no cittas? > > Thank you in advance > > > Herman > > --- Larry wrote: > > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > > Chapter 20 (2) > > > One of them is the asanna-satta plane > > where there is only rupa, not nama. Those who have > attained the > highest > > stage of rupa- jhana and who wish to have no > consciousness at all, > can > > be reborn without citta; for them there is only a > body. These beings > > have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even > happiness is a > > disadvantage, since it does not last. > > > And this existence too, will end, when conditions are right. Maybe this being will then experience consciousness once again - I'll rephrase that - citta will arise and fall away when conditions prevail because existence in any realm is impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. Only through the development of insight, experiential knowledge, can the three conditioned realities of citta, cetasika and rupa be known by a highly dev. Panna which may then know the unconditioned - Nibbana. < May all beings be happy, Azita. 14991 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 6:49pm Subject: Bhojana Sutta Anguttara Nikaya V.37 Bhojana Sutta A Meal Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "In giving a meal, the donor gives five things to the recipient. Which five? He/she gives life, beauty, happiness, strength, & quick-wittedness. Having given life, he/she has a share in long life, either human or divine. Having given beauty, he/she has a share in beauty, either human or divine. Having given happiness, he/she has a share in happiness, either human or divine. Having given strength, he/she has a share in strength, either human or divine. Having given quick-wittedness, he/she has a share in quick-wittedness, either human or divine. In giving a meal, the donor gives these five things to the recipient." The prudent person giving life, strength, beauty, quick-wittedness -- the wise person, a giver of happiness -- attains happiness himself. Having given life, strength, beauty, happiness, & quick-wittedness, he has long life & status wherever he arises. 14992 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Betty --- "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, Jonothan, > Looking forward to your visit this weekend. As usual, am behind on the > posts > (have been editing material for the Foundation website). However, you > mention in digest 1008, when discussing the phenomenalist view v. the > pragmatic that: > _______________________ > > > > I'm don't know if you're implying this, but the teachings do not > > > urge us to 'posit the existence of unknowable things'. It is simply > > > that the conditions by which rupas are said to arise, and the fact > > > that they are said to arise in groups, clearly indicates that the > > > abhidhamma perspective is that rupas do arise at times other > > > than when they are the object of consciousness. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > >Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand why, if rupas > arise in > groups, that it indicates that they do arise at times when they are not > the > object of consciousness. Please explain. > > metta, > Betty Thanks for the question, and I'm sorry I didn't make it clear. Of any group of presently arising rupas, only 1 can be the object of a citta at any given moment (since a citta can take only 1 dhamma as its object. This means that the rest of the group of rupas are not the object of the same moment of citta, although they are equally as ‘presently arising’ as the rupa that is the object of the citta. Hope this makes sense! Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow. Jon 14993 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:06pm Subject: Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (stephen a ghost... Hello Robert, Howard, TG, all TG wrote >Rahula's (and our) acts will be based on past and present conditioning. Yes, I agree, all our actions are based on conditioning. If, however, you mean "based" equals "determined" by past actions then I disagree. You give an example of three completely different reactions to an American flag and say: >These reactions are based on past conditioning, not free will. This implies that the three people could not help but have their reactions given their conditioning. This contradicts what the Buddha told Rahula, that one can reflect and act or refrain from acting (i.e., freely) on the basis of his reflections. The issue of the amount of time deliberating is relevant if someone claims, as Robert did, that mental events are too rapid to act upon or control; the Buddha says one can reflect even during the performance of the action. You conclude: >Ultimately it is the conditions that do the "choosing," not a "person." I agree. But, like Robert and Howard, it misses the point; or I still am. Please see the below for my last and doubtless futile ;-) attempt on this subject. (Howard, as for the roughly second half of your post I meant that their were perils in your position that other's have succumbed to, but thought I stated not you. If this was not clear I apologize for the confusion. We seem to largely agree here, in any case.) (The dream analogy and Nananada's work raise issues that perhaps we can come back to? I'd like to keep this post sort of manageable.) *Suppose* that materialism is true. Further suppose that physical laws are deterministic. An old position, and one that still has the odd adherent. Psychology reduces to biology, to chemistry, to physics. What really exists are atomic stuff operating under rigidly deterministic laws. Someone advises their son to reflect carefully on their actions, and tells them that they're free to act or not upon these reflections. In this context, that advice is empty; actions, being simply bits of matter in motion, are determined. The suggested reflections are useless (epiphenomenalism is one version of this position). Now someone says "No, the advice does makes sense. A person is just a conventional term, a useful fiction." You can see that this solves nothing? All one's thoughts and actions reduce to determined physical phenomena; a person, real or conventional, as the agent of free decisions is a myth. Precisely the same applies in our example. Okay, a person is not ultimately real. If what really exists are exceedingly rapid bits of consciousness, all happening because of previous conditions, all uncontrollable, etc., then a person is not a useful metaphor. There aren't any un/skillful choices, no freedom to choose; just the illusion of refection and choice based on not seeing reality. You can't build the reflection and choice of a (agreed: conventional) person out of these elements. You need something more than vohara-sacca. There are escape routes for the materialist. E.g., she can go for emergent properties, maintaining monism but denying complete reductionism. What's the escape route for the abhidhammist? (I'd posit a rather robust conventional self with some non-reducible features, but don't think it will catch on hereabouts.) It does not lie in the conventional/ultimate distinction as the former reduce to the latter and the latter leave no room for freewill—as is frequently stated. Which contradicts what the Buddha told Rahula. Or so it still seems to me. obdurately, stephen 14994 From: Howard Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (stephen a ghost... Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 8/15/02 11:07:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > (Howard, as for the roughly second half of your post I meant that their were > > perils in your position that other's have succumbed to, but thought I > stated > not you. If this was not clear I apologize for the confusion. We seem to > largely agree here, in any case.) > ============================ Ahh. I found differing parts of your post to be contradictory in this regard. Evidently I misinterpreted part of what you wrote. Sorry. (But happy that we agree, or at least come close to agreeing, on some things! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14995 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 0:46am Subject: Re: Cooran weekend - free will-an illusion! (stephen a ghost... --- Dear Stephen, Arrived in Bangkok( the rainy season by the look of it). These are not easy things to understand. Every moment is new and it is all arising and falling away with great rapidity. However, each moment conditions the next moment and so there is continuity. As TG nicely explained the Buddha's words were a condition for Rahula to reflect wisely . If that situation is analysed there was really no Buddha or Rahula. But there was sound, there was hearing; these disappeared as soon as they arose but they conditioned cittas that understood the concepts that were expressed by the myriad sounds. Cittas arise and fall away instantly too but they can - and do - take a concept and repeatedly examine it and so the cittas in succession may seem much the same, for split seconds, seconds or even longer. But by wise attention there can be the insight that begins to study the nature of citta and see how it is different, albeit similar, moment to moment. This wise attention can lead to seeing, so the texts say, that nama and rupa are very different types of reality - and continue on to know more. There is no self anywhere in this process, so the Dhamma ; but the unbroken continuity of rising and falling, deludes the unwise (i.e.us) into believing there is something substantial there , something somewhere that can direct, decide , that is doing this or that. RobM mentioned the term ayuhana, accumulating, ealier. And this process means that all the time there is new accumulating occuring, subtley altering, right now, what was accumulated from the past; so that in the future accumulations may be very different from what they are now. Wisdom may develop, or not; kindness or cruelty; patience or impatience; metta or anger. It can be studied, this process; while it happens, but usually there is a barrier, self view which distorts and stops us understanding. Robert <> wrote: > Hello Robert, Howard, TG, all > > TG wrote > >Rahula's (and our) acts will be based on past and present conditioning. > Yes, I agree, all our actions are based on conditioning. If, however, you > mean "based" equals "determined" by past actions then I disagree. > You give an example of three completely different reactions to an American > flag and say: > >These reactions are based on past conditioning, not free will. > This implies that the three people could not help but have their reactions > given their conditioning. This contradicts what the Buddha told Rahula, that > one can reflect and act or refrain from acting (i.e., freely) on the basis of > his reflections. > The issue of the amount of time deliberating is relevant if someone claims, > as Robert did, that mental events are too rapid to act upon or control; the > Buddha says one can reflect even during the performance of the action. > You conclude: > >Ultimately it is the conditions that do the "choosing," not a "person." > I agree. But, like Robert and Howard, it misses the point; or I still am. > Please see the below for my last and doubtless futile ;-) attempt on this > subject. > > (Howard, as for the roughly second half of your post I meant that their were > perils in your position that other's have succumbed to, but thought I stated > not you. If this was not clear I apologize for the confusion. We seem to > largely agree here, in any case.) > > (The dream analogy and Nananada's work raise issues that perhaps we can come > back to? I'd like to keep this post sort of manageable.) > > *Suppose* that materialism is true. Further suppose that physical laws are > deterministic. An old position, and one that still has the odd adherent. > Psychology reduces to biology, to chemistry, to physics. What really exists > are atomic stuff operating under rigidly deterministic laws. > Someone advises their son to reflect carefully on their actions, and tells > them that they're free to act or not upon these reflections. In this context, > that advice is empty; actions, being simply bits of matter in motion, are > determined. The suggested reflections are useless (epiphenomenalism is one > version of this position). > Now someone says "No, the advice does makes sense. A person is just a > conventional term, a useful fiction." You can see that this solves nothing? > All one's thoughts and actions reduce to determined physical phenomena; a > person, real or conventional, as the agent of free decisions is a myth. > Precisely the same applies in our example. Okay, a person is not ultimately > real. If what really exists are exceedingly rapid bits of consciousness, all > happening because of previous conditions, all uncontrollable, etc., then a > person is not a useful metaphor. There aren't any un/skillful choices, no > freedom to choose; just the illusion of refection and choice based on not > seeing reality. > You can't build the reflection and choice of a (agreed: conventional) person > out of these elements. You need something more than vohara-sacca. > There are escape routes for the materialist. E.g., she can go for emergent > properties, maintaining monism but denying complete reductionism. What's the > escape route for the abhidhammist? (I'd posit a rather robust conventional > self with some non-reducible features, but don't think it will catch on > hereabouts.) It does not lie in the conventional/ultimate distinction as the > former reduce to the latter and the latter leave no room for freewillâ€"as is > frequently stated. Which contradicts what the Buddha told Rahula. Or so it > still seems to me. > > obdurately, stephen 14996 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:27am Subject: Pernicious view Hi all, The view "there is no being", as I see it, is pernicious. It is a gross misrepresentation of what the Buddha taught. Regards, Victor --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Stephen, > Arrived in Bangkok( the rainy season by the look of it). > > These are not easy things to understand. Every moment > is new and it is all arising and falling away with great rapidity. > However, each moment conditions the next moment and so there is > continuity. As TG nicely explained the Buddha's words were a > condition for Rahula to reflect wisely . > If that situation is analysed there was really no Buddha or Rahula. > But there was sound, there was hearing; these disappeared as soon as > they arose but they conditioned cittas that understood the concepts > that were expressed by the myriad sounds. Cittas arise and fall away > instantly too but they can - and do - take a concept > and repeatedly examine it and so the cittas in succession may seem > much the same, for split seconds, seconds or even longer. > > But by wise attention there can be the insight that begins to study > the nature of citta and see how it is different, albeit similar, > moment to moment. This wise attention can lead to seeing, so the > texts say, that nama and rupa are very different types of reality - > and continue on to know more. > There is no self anywhere in this process, so the Dhamma ; but the > unbroken continuity of rising and falling, deludes the unwise (i.e.us) > into believing there is something substantial there , something > somewhere that can direct, decide , that is doing this or that. > RobM mentioned the term ayuhana, accumulating, ealier. And this > process means that all the time there is new accumulating > occuring, subtley altering, right now, what was accumulated from the > past; so that in the future accumulations may be very different from > what they are now. Wisdom may develop, or not; kindness or cruelty; > patience or impatience; metta or anger. It can be studied, this > process; while it happens, but usually there is a barrier, self view > which distorts and stops us understanding. > Robert 14997 From: anders_honore Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anders and Views (2), (was:forwarding to list) --- Sarah wrote: > cont. from (1) > > The commentary equates Ditthi (view) with the 62 wrong views, > dvaasa.t.thidi.t.thidhammesu ta.m (as found in the Brahmajala > sutta). It looks a very interesting commentary (but rather long and > way beyond my ability to translate) including mentions about > dependent conditionality ." > ***** I think it comes down to the difference in meaning of the words here. If you say that Right View is the same as Panna, and that all views not of Panna are, more or less, Wrong views to a certain extent because of clinging associated with it, then we are in agreement, I think (not that agreement is the objective of the discussion ;-)). > ..... > Maybe we all have some conceit creeping in to the `others' and `oneself' > ideas ;-).... Yes, it is much easier to talk about defilements that have been seen through, because they are usually also abandoned, but the important thing is that obscurations yet unrecognised. > ..... > I appreciate the first point. However, in what you say, I think there is a > tendency to think in terms of `situation' -i.e discussing dhamma, reading, > `stopping from this place'. I also wonder if there is an idea of self > applying `one's attention' and so on. I'd prefer to say that whether now, > by conditions, we're discussing dhamma, sitting quietly or whatever else, > there are these skilful and unskilful tendencies to be known, along with > many other realities. The key for any kind of bhavana is therefore > understanding, rather than situation. Apologies if I misunderstand you > here. 'Applying one's attention' sounds a bit odd if expressed as 'directing consciousness to' in normal speech, don't you think? :- ). But yes, the perception of a concrete situation is generated by the mind. The understanding that could be appropriate for seeing through this, is being mindful of the concepts which come together to form the perception of a situation (one of the fundamental ones is that it is happening to someone). > This comes back to our old chestnut theme of Mahayana vs Theravada > understanding. Are you quite sure `your' understanding has not been > influenced or is not `preconceived' by what you've read here, Anders?? Are > you not just repeating a formula:-) I'm not saying one is right and one is > wrong, but if we appear to have different experiences and understandings > and we want to therefore know what the Buddha taught (for this group > only) in the Pali Canon, shouldn't that be our Guide? I cannot claim 100% knowledge of the origination of Panna, so I cannot say exactly that this is how it is. There is an element f speculation involved. It seems to me that Panna which discerns dhammas as they are, is originates in consciousness as it is purified of ignorance, and not something that originates through learned Dhamma. These are merely there to help one abandon the ignorance already present. But yes, my habitual communicative pattern is influenced by a strong subjection to Mahayanist thought. :-) > ..... > Ok, a fine answer. This is one set of concepts. Thinking can think about > any number and as you repeatedly point out, in that they are all `views', > they are equally worthless unltimately. So what absolute realities do > `you' distinguish at this moment? Haha, *I* do not distinguish an Absolute reality (absolute to the bottom), because ignorance is still present, and regardless of whether it has been reduced or not, it still conditions the mind in subtle ways. I may infer an absolute reality based on my own experience, but this is not seeing actual absolute reality. > ..... > Good question. I understand that when disciples such as Bahiya or > Sariputta heard just a few lines, their accumulated panna was such that at > those moments of hearing, they penetrated the 4NT, paticca samuppada and > so on. We can read in the Jatakas or other texts about the previous lives > of great disciples listening to the previous Buddha and so on. > > According to the texts, Which text? 14998 From: anders_honore Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 3:30am Subject: Re: A question on 'Right View/Right Understanding'/Anders --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I'm not entirely sure that I would recognise Wrong View soon enough > to experiment with it - and can it be experimented with? I don't > recall ever thinking, "I have wrong view" - even though I know that > I am ignorant and deluded. Do you know or do you believe it? If you know delusion, the surely you would also know Wrong Views. As for recognising wrong views, one question might be worth asking: Will this lead to suffering, or the cessation of suffering? Not by looking at the context of the situation which one looks upon with a view, but the context of the mind-dhammas associated with the views being examined, such as arrogance, humility, pride, effort, etc. Perhaps this will help in distinguishing Right Views from Wrong. In Dhamma Anders 14999 From: <> Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:43am Subject: ADL ch. 20 (4) Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 20 (4) We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Stream-Winning, Ch.VI, par. 4, Visiting the sick) that the Buddha spoke to Mahanama about the way a wise lay-follower who is sick should be admonished by another wise lay-follower. We read: A wise lay-disciple, Mahanama, who is sick... should be admonished by another wise lay-disciple with the four comfortable assurances, thus: 'Take comfort, dear sir, in your unwavering loyalty to the Buddha, to the Dhamma, to the Sangha...Take comfort, dear sir, in your possession of the virtues dear to the Ariyans...' A wise lay-disciple, Mahanama, who is sick... should be admonished by another wise lay-disciple with these four comfortable assurances. Then, supposing he has longing for his parents, he should thus be spoken to: If he say: 'I have longing for my parents', the other should reply: 'But, my dear sir, you are subject to death. Whether you feel longing for your parents or not, you will have to die. It were just as well for you to abandon the longing you have for your parents.' If he should say: 'That longing for my parents is now abandoned,' the other should reply: 'Yet, my dear sir, you still have longing for your children. As you must die in any case, it were just as well for you to abandon that longing for your children.' If he should say: 'That longing for my children is now abandoned,' the other should reply: 'Yet, my dear sir, you still have longing for the five human pleasures of sense.' Then, if he say, 'That longing for the five human pleasures of sense is now abandoned,' the other should reply: 'My friend, the heavenly delights are more excellent than the five human pleasures of sense. It were well for you, worthy sir, to remove your thoughts from them and fix them on the Four Deva Kings.' Suppose the sick man say, 'My thoughts are removed from human pleasures of sense and fixed upon the Four Deva Kings,' then let the other say: 'More excellent than the Four Deva Kings and more choice are the Suite of the Thirty-three... the Creative Devas... the Devas who rejoice in the work of other devas... the latter are more excellent and choice than the former... so it were better for you to fix your thoughts on the Brahma World.' Then if the sick man's thoughts are so fixed, let the other say: 'My friend, even the Brahma World is impermanent, not lasting, prisoned in a person. Well for you, friend, if you raise your mind above the Brahma World and fix it on cessation from the person-pack. (The five khandhas of clinging.)' And if the sick man says he has done so, then, Mahanama, I declare that there is no difference between the lay-disciple who thus avers and the monk whose heart is freed from the asavas, that is, between the release of the one and the release of the other. It is a danger to be subject to birth. No rebirth at all in any plane of existence is to be preferred to birth even in the highest heavenly plane. If one wants to have no more rebirth one should know the Four Ariyan Truths; realizing these leads to the end of rebirth. The First Ariyan Truth is the truth of dukkha. If we could experience, for instance, that seeing at this moment, hearing, attachment or any other nama or rupa which appears now is only an element which arises and falls away, we would have more understanding of the truth of dukkha. What arises and falls away cannot give satisfaction, it is dukkha. The Second Ariyan Truth is the truth of the origin of dukkha. Craving is the origin of dukkha. Through the development of the Eightfold Path there will be less craving, less clinging to nama and rupa. When finally there is no more craving, there will be an end to rebirth, which is the end of dukkha. The Third Ariyan Truth is the extinction of dukkha, which is nibbana, and the Fourth Ariyan Truth is the Path leading to the extinction of dukkha, which is the Eightfold Path. We read in the 'Maha-parinibbana-sutta' (Dialogues of the Buddha II, No. 16, Ch.II, 1, 2): The Exalted One proceeded with a great company of the monks to Kotigama; and there he stayed in the village itself. And at that place the Exalted One addressed the monks, and said: 'It is through not understanding and grasping Four Ariyan Truths, O monks, that we have had to run so long, to wander so long in this weary path of rebirth, both you and I!' 'And what are these four?' 'The Ariyan truth about dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cause of dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cessation of dukkha; and the Ariyan truth about the path that leads to that cessation. But when these Ariyan truths are grasped and known the craving for future life is rooted out, that which leads to renewed becoming is destroyed, and then there is no more birth!' Questions 1. Why do the Buddha's teachings speak about hell? What is the aim of this? 2. What is a plane of existence? 3. What is the difference between 'plane of citta' and 'plane of existence' ? 4. On what does it depend what plane of consciousness a citta belongs to? 5. The human plane is a sensuous plane of existence. Are there in the human plane only cittas which are kamavacara cittas (cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness)? 6. The rupa-brahma planes are not sensuous planes of existence. Can there be kamavacara cittas in the rupa-brahma planes? If so, all types?