16000 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Group Hi Rahula, Welcome to DSG. You certainly have an auspicious name and we’ll be glad to hear anything else about you, such as where you live or how you have developed your interest in dhamma and Pali. --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > There is a new discussion group (I am the moderator) to discuss the > error of Shakya Aryanatta's translation. > > Many have been misled by SA's translations including some of my > friends. ..... When I first started reading the Pali Canon translations there was a very limited selection - mostly just those published by the PTS and of course no internet. Sometimes I’d come across references to souls and footnotes on Christianity and I’d get somewhat annoyed. What I understand better now is that there is no deliberate attempt to mislead, but any translator will look at the texts and the materials according to his own understanding, even if he is a Pali expert. For example, ‘atta’ or ‘attan’ can refer to the reflexive pronouns, ‘myself’, ‘oneself’ etc or to ‘soul’ or ‘self’. If we say “attaana.m sukkheti piineti”, it should be translated as “he enjoys and pleases himelf”, but grammatically it could be translated (I think) as “he enjoys and pleases the soul”. Feminine nouns have the same ending for several cases, so again, grammatically they can often be translated ‘correctly’ in many ways which lead to quite different and important meanings. Christine raised the question of translations before. Of course it is very helpful if one can read Pali (not me ). Far more important, though, is the development of right understanding which will be able to discern what is right and what isn’t. Given a choice between good Pali and poor understanding and poor Pali and good understanding, I’d opt for the second. There are many variable translations available. Perhaps what is most helpful is to appreciate the good intentions of these efforts and meanwhile help to spread and encourage friends to read the ones that we think are most accurate according to Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. Best wishes for your various projects meanwhile, Rahula. Sarah ==== 16001 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > What I'm trying to get at is a common sati that would arise in anyone, > not just a buddhist with a strong background in abhidhamma. .... Just a quick note on this one point - As you suggest, sati is not Buddhist or confined to those with a ‘strong background in abhidhamma’. Sati arises with all kusala (wholesome) cittas and at those moments keeps the mind from akusala (unwholesome states). It is mindful of what is ‘good’. So anytime someone gives or is kind or abstains from killing, there must be sati arising with the wholesome consciousness, regardless of whether anything is known about it. In other religions or philosophies, we’ll learn that giving is good and hating is bad and so on. Studying Buddhism in more detail, we’ll learn more precisely what is good (i.e. moments of consciousness rather than a long act or story) and exactly what is bad. For example, we may not speak out with harsh words and may smile pleasantly, but what about the consciousness with resentment, with attachment, with ignorance? Again, knowing more about these different states is not confined to Buddhism or abhidhamma only. Those who have developed high levels of samatha or jhana have very, very precise knowledge of the difference between moments of kusala and akusala. In this case the sati which arises with all wholesome states must be accompanied by panna (wisdom). However, it is not the panna that knows phenomena as anatta. Only when sati is accompanied by panna which knows realities as namas and rupas, as elements which are anatta, can the sati be referred to as satipatthana. Those that have not heard/read the Teachings in detail cannot know or develop satipatthana. This is because if there is not a clear theoretical understanding initially of what the paramattha dhammas are and what the objects of satipatthana can be, it cannot develop as I understand. It’s not a question of names or labels (one could call oneself a Buddhist, a phenomenologist or anythingelseist), but of truly knowing what the objects of satipatthana are and also understanding that all phenomena, including sati, are merely different mental and physical phenomena arising by conditions. Not sure if this helps or is controversial;-) Sarah ===== 16002 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:13am Subject: Informal Thoughts on Sati and Sa~n~na Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/29/02 11:12:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > My take on the connection between sati and memory > comes most immediately from Soma Thera's words: > > "Mindfulness as memory is indicated by such terms as annussati = calling > to mind; patissati = remembrance; dharanata = bearing in mind; saranata > = recollection" > > ============================ Informally, based just on the usage I've come across in written discussions of meditation, I've always thought of 'sati' as designating the function of remembering to stay with the present moment of experience - of not becoming forgetful and "getting lost" in thought, reverie, or torpor. It seems to me that it is not attention per se, nor, is it, in this usage, general memory per se, but is a remembering or keeping in mind to maintain attention. So, as I think of it, 'sati' as used in the Dhamma doesn't mean memory, per se, but it has a clear memory aspect/flavor to it. Likewise, to me 'sa~n~na', with its meaning of recognition or cognition or perception, also does not mean memory, per se, but certainly has a clear aspect/flavor of memory to it. To recognize or (even wordlessly) identify something surely requires a mental trace of some sort, though not necessarily a memory in the usual sense. (I suspect that the *common* term 'memory', apparently not explicated in Abhidhamma, designates an amalgam of mental operations, and, in the common usage of the term, denotes a type of very large and complex mental process involving long trains of thought and multiple functions.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Larry There are lots of useful references from relevant texts on the points you mention below, and also on the so-called 'memory' connection you bring up in a later post, in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. I have pasted below a link to Ch. 6 'Mindfulness (sati). Jon http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.html --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > This section of the introduction is an exposition of several qualities > of mindfulness, see outline below. Is everyone in agreement on these? > What are the qualities of sati in citta process? Is there a difference > between the sati in citta process and satipatthana? Is there sati not > included in satipatthana? > > Larry > -------------------- > Outline: > > sati as memory: treassurer who reminds the king of his possessions day > and night. Possessions = sila, samadhi, panna + essentials of holy > living + resolve to realize all this. > > sati as care & protection of mind > > selecive aspect: discriminates between kusala & akusala > > integrative aspect: the organizing activity necessary for bringing about > kusala cittas. Sees all lacks and deficiencies. Integrative aspect is > considered the highest wisdom of mindfulness = sammasati. > > strong mindfulness: ignores unnecessary by adhering to the center of > business and extends its view to important periferal conditions. Balance > between width and depth of vision. > > as controling faculty (indriya): overcomes mental conflict, unclarity, > incapacity to judge aright, indefiniteness due to mental unquiet. Makes > for absence of confusion, lucidity, sound judgement, definiteness of > outlook. > > as spiritual power (bala): mindfulness accompanied by sustained energy. > The earnestness which destroys negligence. 16004 From: wink_1000 Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:01am Subject: not new but here again. Hello all. I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. D.W. 16005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:01am Subject: Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 6, Energy, no. 1 Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 6, Energy, no. 1 The Perfection of Energy The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines energy, viriya, as follows: Energy has the characteristic of striving; its function is to fortify; its manifestation is infatigability; an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause. The cetasika viriya, energy, accompanies almost all cittas, except sixteen ahetuka cittas, cittas that are unaccompanied by beautiful roots or unwholesome roots. Thus, whenever attachment and delight with regard to an object arises, the cetasika of energy accompanies that citta and performs its function of effort or energy for attachment and delight in that object. Be it akusala citta or kusala citta which arises, viriya cetasika accompanies that citta. When akusala citta arises viriya cetasika is effort for akusala, whereas when kusala citta arises, viriya cetasika performs its function of effort for kusala. The perfection of energy is effort or endeavour for kusala. There should be energy or effort for each kind of kusala and when developed, it can become the perfection of energy. When sati arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities that are appearing at this moment, there is not me or self who makes an effort to be aware, but it is the function of right effort, sammå-våyåma. Right effort, viriya cetasika, arises and endeavours to study with awareness, to notice and pay attention to the reality that is appearing. Right effort is effort or energy for paññå which understands that what appears through the eyes is only a kind of rúpa which does not last; or that the reality which is seeing is only an element, a characteristic of nåma-dhamma experiencing what appears through the eyes. This is the perfection of energy that endeavours to study the characteristics of realities appearing one at a time. It does not matter whether the perfection of energy and sati arise often or seldom, viriya is not weary of the task of studying and noticing the reality that appears. When viriya arises, there is no discouragement; viriya performs its task all the time even if the process of the development of understanding is extremely slow and difficult. The perfection of energy is most important and it should be developed together with the other perfections so that the appropriate conditions are accumulated for reaching the further shore, that is, nibbåna. Even kusala which is dåna, generosity, cannot be performed without viriya. People may have kusala citta with the intention to give things away, but it is difficult for them to act in accordance with their good intentions because they are lazy: when there is an object they could give away, they do not give it away. They have confidence in kusala and they have the intention to be generous, but when viriya necessary for the accomplishment of generosity is deficient, they are not able to accomplish generous deeds. Therefore, the perfection of energy is essential, because it assists the other perfections, such as generosity or morality. The perfection of energy is an indispensable support for all kinds of kusala. Sometimes we may be lax and too lazy to perform kusala, we may think that its performing is troublesome, that we are too tired, or that it is time consuming. At such moments we are overcome by akusala and hence kusala cannot arise. If we know that it is difficult for us to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should at this very moment, immediately, apply ourselves with diligence to kusala. Life is extremely short, as it lasts just for one moment of citta and this moment may be kusala citta or akusala citta, depending on conditions. Therefore, we should not give in to laziness with regard to our task of performing kusala. If we are all the time inert and lazy, it is evident that the perfection of energy is lacking and therefore, there are no conditions for the elimination of akusala. The only way to eliminate akusala is to be diligent and energetic in the performing of all kinds of kusala as far as we are able to. 16006 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:29pm Subject: Two very different statements Dear Group, I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu Bodh.). metta, Christine 16007 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:20pm Subject: Memory and Definition of Sati Hi Larry (and All), When preparing for my class on sati, I relied heavily on two recent books (both summarized in my Class Notes): - "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Ven. H. Gunaratana Mahathera. Full text available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm - "The Noble Eightfold Path" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Full text available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html The definition of sati in these books focuses on "seeing things as they truly are". I looked up references to sati in some of the source texts. What I found was quite interesting (thanks, Larry, for prompting me to take up this search). Clearly, there is a link between sati and memory (I was wrong in my earlier post). I have come to the conclusion after reading the source texts (plus footnotes) that the "memory" aspect of sati is not the recollection of a previous instance of the object, but recollection of the ethical quality of the object. Mindfulness, clearly separating right from wrong (wholesome from unwholesome) sees things as they truly are. For example, when I "see a pen", I can remember: 1. Label (i.e. this is called a pen) 2. Instance (i.e. this is the blue pen that I bought yesterday) 3. Characteristics (i.e. a pen is used for writing) 4. This is a visible object Points 1, 2 and 3 above are papanca and I don't think that they belong to the Buddhist definition of sati. I see "remembering that this is a visible object" as mindfulness and means, "seeing things as they truly are". Not floating on the surface of the water like a pumpkin pushed by currents and wind, but penetrating directly to the foundation like a stone placed in water, not affected by currents and wind. Here is the result of my reading the original texts: Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." The Questions of King Milinda, Book II (The Distinguishing Characteristics of Ethical Qualities), Chapter I, Verse 12: "The King said: `What, Nagasena, is the characteristic mark of mindfulness?' `Repetition, O king, and keeping up.' `And how is repetition the mark of mindfulness?' `As mindfulness, O king, springs up in his heart he repeats over the good and evil, right and wrong, slight and important, dark and light qualities, and those that resemble them, saying to himself: "These are the four modes of keeping oneself ready and mindful, these the four modes of spiritual effort, these the four bases of extraordinary powers, these the five organs of the moral sense, these the five mental powers, these the seven bases of Arahantship, these eight divisions of the Excellent Way, this is serenity and this is insight, this is wisdom and this emancipation." Thus does the recluse follow after those qualities that are desirable, and not after those that are not; thus does he cultivate those which ought to be practiced, and not those which ought not. That is how repetition is the mark of mindfulness.'" Footnote to the phrase "Repetition, O king, and keeping up" by translator (T. W. Rhys Davids): "Apilapana and upaganhana, both new words. This definition is in keeping with the etymological meaning of the word sati, which is `memory'. It is one of the most difficult words (in its secondary, ethical, and more usual meaning [I think this refers to the meaning of attentiveness, as opposed to memory]) in the whole Buddhist system of ethical psychology to translate. Hardy renders `conscience', which is certainly wrong; and Gogerly has `meditation' , which is equally wide of the mark. I have sometimes rendered it, `self-possession'. It means that activity of the mind, constant presence of mind, wakefulness of heart, which is the foe of carelessness, inadvertence, self-forgetfulness. And it is a very constant theme of the Buddhist moralist. Buddhaghosa makes `readiness', its mark." Dhamma-sangani (first book of Abhidhamma) Book I (The Uprising of Thoughts) Part I (Good States of Consciousness) Chapter I, Verse 14: "What on that occasion is the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyam)? The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness – this is the faculty of mindfulness that there then is." Footnote to the question by translator (C. A. F. Rhys Davids): "Buddhaghosa's comment on sati, in which he closely follows and enlarges on the account in Mil. 37, 38, shows that the traditional conception of that aspect of consciousness had much in common with conscience or moral sense. Sati (Sk. : smrti, memory) is in Buddhism not merely memory, but is lucid retention of both past and present. It appears under the metaphor of an inward mentor, discriminating between good and bad and prompting choice. Hardy went so far as to render it "conscience" but this slurs over the interesting divergences between Eastern and Western thought. The former is quite unmystical on the subject of sati. It takes the psychological process of representative functioning (without bringing out the distinction between bare memory and judgment), and presents the same under an ethical aspect." Visuddhimagga Part III (Understanding) Chapter XIV (Description of the Aggregates) Paragraph 141: "By its means they remember (saranti), or it itself remembers, or it is just mere remembering (sarana) thus it is mindfulness (sati). It has the characteristic of not wobbling. It function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding, or it is manifested as the state of confronting an objective field. Its proximate cause is strong perception, or its proximate cause is the Foundations of Mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see M Sutta 10). It should be regarded, however, as like a pillar because it is firmly founded, or like a door-keeper because it guards the eye door, and so on. Footnote to "wobbling" by translator (Bhikkhu Nanamoli): "Apilapana (not wobbling) is the steadying of an object, the remembering and not forgetting it, keeping it immovable as a stone instead of letting it go bobbing about like a pumpkin in water." Let me close by quoting from the introductory essay of the PTS version of Abhidhammatthasangaha by Shwe Zan Aung under the section "Confusion in terminology": "I allude to the various renderings adopted by different Occidental scholars of Buddhist technical terms. To select a few out of many: The much abused term `thought' has been made by some to stand for cetana, by others for vitakka; again by others for vicara. Sanna (perception in the widest sense of the term) used to be rendered by `memory', as also was sati (presence of mind). The former term is, of course, nearer the mark; and yet to render sanna by `memory' is to confuse it with the higher process of memory, in which sanna may play a more prominent part than in any other process, but of which it (sanna) is only an element or factor. Even in a single stage of a concrete process, sanna would be more prominent in that of delimitation (votthabbana), apperception and identification, just as another element, attention (manasikara) is more active when mind adverts to sense stimuli. For the same reason, the element of registration or identification (tadarammana) should not be mistaken for a concrete process like memory. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16008 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Way 5, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued All that the Buddha taught from the time of his enlightenment to his passing away into the Element of Immortality has been summed up in the sentence: "strive with earnestness" the last words of the Master. Earnestness runs through the whole of the Buddhaword, and embraces everything there. It is like the elephant's footprint which is able to contain the footprint of any other animal. Therefore did the Blessed One say: "all wholesome things are founded on earnestness, converge on earnestness, and earnestness is to be considered as the most excellent of them." Mindfulness in this sense is found to be the chief characteristic of all skillful actions leading to bliss here and hereafter and tending to one's own and to other's profit. It is the force which pushes one to right practice, after one has given careful thought to the Buddha's Teaching. Life as it is understood in the Dispensation of the Buddha is unsatisfactory until one can through moral joy, meditative tranquillity and wise understanding reach mental invulnerability to suffering. The Way of Mindfulness is understanding and tranquillity illumined by a bright moral character. Without a blameless happy life of virtue it is not possible to tranquilize the heart or make the intellect keen and clear for spiritual perfection. The spiritual man is a person of so sensitive and heightened a consciousness that he finds even slight moral guilt burdensome and so he cannot help avoiding all traces of it by a strict adherence to virtue. Otherwise owing to remorse at his backslidings and preoccupation with them he will not find the right inner environment and climate for developing the placidity and insight which produce the power of perfect equanimity necessary for changing over from mental slavery to freedom. The cheerful joyous atmosphere which virtue gives is more necessary to the aspirant to Nibbana than anything else to keep him spiritually alive. Although the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness does not speak of virtue directly, in detail, and is principally concerned with the calming of the mind and wise understanding, the presence of the virtue-foundation is implied, since the instruction on mindfulness is intended for the "unification of beings", and there is no purification in the Dhamma which does not begin with "purification of virtue" [sila visuddhi], and it is only after "purification of virtue" [sila patitthaya] that the wise man develops concentration, and wisdom and attains liberation. Further , there is enough in the commentary and the explanation to it, to prove the importance of virtue to the aspirant, and to show how tranquillity and understanding help in the protecting, the preserving, and the perfecting of virtue. The Way of Mindfulness moves towards the equanimity of the fully quieted mind along the firm and sure ground of active virtue. Because of this virtuous basis it is a reliable way to highest security, free from the bogs, swamps, and sloughs of vice and the dangerous, futility of inaction. Analysis is a salient feature of the method of arriving at knowledge in the Buddhadhamma. The Buddha is the Master of analytic knowledge and his doctrine is called the Teaching of Analysis [vibhajjavada]. The Way of Mindfulness is therefore naturally replete with the application of the principles of analysis. The sentient being is radically searched through manifold analysis to see if anything in him is unanalysable. Only that which is relative is analysable; only that which is conditioned and dependent on something else. The absolute, the unconditioned, and the independent are not analysable. Is there anything absolute in the sentient being, or is everything in the sentient being relative? The answer has to be found out by the aspirant, after being convinced by valid thought and experience, in order to reach the first glimpse of the goal. By training to think along the lines indicated in the Way he will be able to conclude with certainty what the nature of sentient individuality really is. On the immovable basis of such correct knowledge rests the final realization of supra mundane perfection. The aim of analysis in the Way of the Buddha is to attain correct understanding of the component parts of sentient existence and their relations, for rightly grasping the unique totality of the individual that emerges from the relations. Only a Buddha, however, has the ability to gauge the uniqueness of individual totality consummately. But the important thing to be noted here is that a just and generally accurate perception of the significance of the totality as a thing distinct from every other and possessing a character that clearly is not to be merely described or defined by the parts is the result of the team-work of the forces of wisdom and concentrated vision. Analysis of the parts lays bare the constituent components. Analysis of the relations gives a sense of the totality. All the differences that make for uniqueness are seen as due to subtle distinctions of relations. And the uniqueness of the personality, individuality, and entirety of a living being depends on the countless number of ever changing relations, their infinite variety, subtle nuances, and endless possibilities in each separate life-flux. The analytic nature of the Way leads one finally to the vision of the sentient being as a uniquely related totality that transcends the parts and has a character all its own. The sense of totality to which the logic of analysis leads is realized as true in the intensity of the absorptive or unifying activity of concentrative thought. Here, the development of penetrative insight [vipassana] combines with that of tranquilizing concentration [samatha], and each functions in a way that does not outstrip the other. Both gain uniformity of force. Through the overdoing of analysis there could be agitation. And indolence creeps in through too much of tranquillity. Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight. Wholehearted acceptance is principally intuitive and springs from the placidity of concentration. In the sense of yoking [yuganandhatthena] and of not letting (either) become overwhelming [anativattanatthena] contemplative balance is reached. That balance is manifested as the sober, serene, steadfast acceptance of the truth which analysis reveals. This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit and does not edge sideways but goes straight forward, intent on the Real, free from all biases. Though it looks within, it is aware of what is without. Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrated spirit. 16009 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi Christine Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness". > Dear Group, > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > Bodh.). > > metta, > Christine > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." **************** Take Care Steve 16010 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Dear Rob, Wow! What a treasure trove. Great research Rob. This one should definitely go in the Useful Posts file. Eventhough it still makes sense to me to label the recognition of breath or unpleasant feeling as a function of sati, I am willing to abandon that idea in the light of this evidence. On my reading, sati is actually an ethical cetasika regardless of buddhist doctrine. This definitely sheds a new light on mindfulness. Thanks very much. Jolly good show! Larry 16011 From: vimmuti Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:54pm Subject: nimita or sign when we concentrate on a small area of the body the area of the concentration develops its own sensation after a while. is this is what is meant by nimita and that we should shift our primary attention to it?......henry 16012 From: vimmuti Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:01pm Subject: whoops... i am also telling some young people on paltalk that the primary of the first foundation of Mindfullness is sensation and if touch the tactile pure stimuli and not the concept of touch itself is the object for meditation... is that in line with the Mahasatipathana and the vimmutimagda? 16013 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Jon, Thanks for the link and thanks to Nina for writing it. This accords nicely with Rob's quotes and adds something on the relationship between sati and vipassana. Sati is the remembrance of vipassana applied to the object. If I had read it before it had never stuck in my mind that sati is the remembrance of kusala; in this case the kusala of seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta, or, on a mundane level, at least the idea of anicca, dukkha, anatta. There has always been a lingering frustration with not experiencing a genuine insight while practicing mindfulness of breathing. Any thoughts that may have arisen, even thoughts about dhamma, I had dismissed as distractions. I think this added dimension of memory will definitely perk up the practice and make it more meaningful. Plus, I think the mere activity of sitting there in the meditation posture cultivating alert tranqulity is kusala and as such is an integral part of the sati proceedure. I'm sure I have been told this before, but it has always gone in one ear and out the other. Larry --------------------- Jon: "Larry There are lots of useful references from relevant texts on the points you mention below, and also on the so-called 'memory' connection you bring up in a later post, in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. I have pasted below a link to Ch. 6 'Mindfulness (sati). Jon http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.htm " 16014 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Sarah, Thanks for bringing out these points about sati as cetasika. Is sati the faculty that discriminates between kusala and akusala? Larry 16015 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] whoops... Hi Henry, I don't know the answer to the question on nimita but for what you said below I would say that is a good basic introductory instruction. If you want to go into more detail you might look here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html We are studying that text under the subject heading Way 1, Way 2 etc. I think it will be several weeks before we get to mindfulness of breathing. Larry --------------- Henry: "i am also telling some young people on paltalk that the primary of the first foundation of Mindfullness is sensation and if touch the tactile pure stimuli and not the concept of touch itself is the object for meditation... is that in line with the Mahasatipathana and the vimmutimagda?" 16016 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Antony - In a message dated 9/4/02 12:43:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@h... writes: > > Dear Howard and all, > > Here is an extract from Majjhima 95 about safeguarding the truth. > > "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? > > To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the > > safeguarding of the truth." > > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth. > > "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has > something > reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered > views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn095.html > > with metta / Antony. > ============================ I like this very much! Gee, it seems ole Sakyamuni had few things on the ball! LOL! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16017 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > Bodh.). > > metta, > Christine > ============================== Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are interdependent. However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent origination is the middle way. That's my take. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16018 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi, all - I just wrote the following reply to Christine. I wrote it before reading the post from Steve (Bodhi2500@a...) in which he provides the sutta "Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist". Had I read this first I wouldn't have bothered writing my post - the Buddha said it all, and, of course, much better! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/30/02 10:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > > Bodh.). > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ============================== > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are > interdependent. > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent > origination > is the middle way. That's my take. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16019 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] not new but here again. Hi again, DW. I think I remember you. Is there a military connection there? Anyway, wlecome back. Please feel free to join in the discussion any time. Jon --- wink_1000 wrote: > Hello all. > > I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back > again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting > it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) > > Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. > > D.W. 16020 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements/Steve Hi Steve, Thanks for the Sutta ... I don't think I'd seen it before, though the paticcasamuppada is familiar. There certainly isn't anything new under the sun. The study of Cosmology 2500 years ago? ... today it is a branch of astrophysics. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness". > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 > Lokayatika Sutta > The Cosmologist > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed One and, > on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of > friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, > he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything > exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." > "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not > exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a > Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, > brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the > fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata > teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition > come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes > consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the > six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a > requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition > comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes > clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes > becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a > requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of > stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that > very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of > fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of > consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& > -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the > six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact > comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the > cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of > clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the > cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of > birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire > mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just > as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was > hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark > so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- > through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master > Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master > Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from > this day forward, for life." > > **************** > > Take Care > Steve 16021 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested.../KenH Hi KenH, I think the scripture you refer to is about Kisa Gotam (frail Gotami). http://www.geocities.com/zennun12_8/kisagotami.html Thanks for the 'froth and bubble' quote - it brought back memories ... (I remember having to learn parts of ALG's "Ye wearie wayfarer" by heart for talking in class.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Anthony and Christine, > > Christine wrote: > ----------- > > You may be surprised at the understanding some people > have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta > is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. > > ------------ > > So was I Christine, but it confirmed something we Aussies > were taught at primary school: > > "Life is mainly froth and bubble, > Two things stand like stone; > Kindness in an other's trouble, > Courage in your own." > (Adam Lindsay Gordon) > > We are all suffering but we apply a different therapy to > other people's suffering than we apply to our own. We > don't tell someone who is grieving, "there is grief > here but there is no self who grieves;" the perception of > insensitivity would only add to their suffering. > > It makes me think of that sutta (sorry, no ref.), in > which the Buddha told an inconsolable bereaved mother to > find a household that had not known bereavement and bring > back a pinch of mustard seed. I suppose the woman > thought at first, that she was being offered a medication > of some sort. Had the Buddha simply said, "dukkha is > everywhere," the beauty of that truth would have been > lost on her. > > Kind regards > Ken H 16022 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements/Howard Hi Howard, I like your take! Concise, no-frills and understandable. Thanks. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are interdependent. > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent origination > is the middle way. That's my take. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16023 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 2:07am Subject: Proximate Cause of masculinity, femininity, heart base Hi All, Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and heart base? I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada, patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base. Comments? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16024 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 3:25am Subject: Way - comments on introductions-S Dear Larry & All, I have quite a few parts of the introductions so far marked for comment. I usually prefer not to make comments when the writer cannot reply and has offered this wonderful gift, but as this edition of the translation is so well-read and has been posted here for discussion, I think it’s important to raise a few points which I may also pass on to B.Bodhi. Of course, these are merely my personal views only: Foreward by Cassius A.Pereira ====================== 1. Unusual vocabulary (lost on me) used in translations, eg “diapason” in “Resound thus, O Bhikkhus, your swelling diapason of just rejoicing” in the first para. 2. Questionable comments and description, eg “..the text reflects the course of the aspirant’s progress in watchful thinking, even as verses in a gallop rhythm can picture the speeding rider and the steady beat of a horse’s hooves”. 3. Unsupported generalisations, eg “He who begins this practice of Satipatthana finds that indeed he needs must rein in his thoughts sharply and often.” 4. Unclear comments and suggestions of ‘self’, eg “But, as a rider slide as it were into the way of its doing, on a bicycle, or a trotting horse -- so in his practice the Yogi gradually falls in with “its way” till, after a while, its working seems smooth and clear.” Intro by Soma Thera (first half) ======================= 1. Ambiguous and suspect comments, eg “The seeker knows to a certainty that what he wants is to be found in the realm of the spirit. there alone he feels he would reach the vision of oneness (ekatta).......etc”, “Right Understanding and its group......is rational. And when it is combined with Right Concentration.....it is intuitive”, “the knowledge of things gained from different relations and different angles...”, “This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit.....Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrate spirit.” 2. Questionable comments about mindfulness (satipatthana), eg “Mindfulness as memory” is rather misleading to me, but this is being discussed separately. Also “Mindfulness as the activity that takes care of the mind and protects it”, “Strong mindfulnes ignores the unnecessary, by adhering to the center of the business in hand......By such a balance between width and depth mindfulness steers clear of the extremes of lopsided vision and practice.” 3. Inaccurate comments about satipatthana, eg “Without mindfulness there will be no reconstitution of already acquired knowledge and consciousness itself would break into pieces, become fragmentary, and be unable to do properly the work of cognition.” .Also “the aim of analysis in the Way of the Buddha is to attain correct understanding of the component parts of sentient existence and their relations, for rightly grasping the unique totality of the individual that emerges from the relations.” 4. Suggestions of the wrong view of a self that is mindful, eg “When one is strongly mindful, one plants one’s consciousness deep in an object like a firm post well sunk in the ground”,“The analytic nature of the Way leads one finally to the vision of thesentient being as a uniquely related totality that transcends the parts and has a character all its own.” 5. Comments on virtue unsupported by the sutta or other texts and also ambiguous, eg “The spiritual man is a person of so sensitive and heightened a consciousness that he finds even slight moral guilt burdensome......”, “The cheerful joyous atmosphere which virtue gives is more necessary to the aspirant to Nibbana than anything else to keep him spiritually alive.”, “...it is only after “purification of virtue” (sila patitthaya) that the wise man develops concentration, and wisdom and attains liberation.” 7. Suggestions that satipatthana is intellectual (“thinking” or “analysis”) rather than direct understanding and awareness, eg “By training to think along the lines indicated in the Way he will be able to conclude with certainty what the nature of sentient individuality really is.”, “the sentient being is radically searched through manifold analysis to see if anything in him is unanalysable”, “Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight.”, “Through the overdoing of analysis there could be agitation. And indolence creeps in through too much of tranquillity”. ********** I believe there are so many errors, questionable comments and ambiguities unspported by texts in these introductions, that it would be more useful to present the Sutta and commentaries (preferably in full) with the Translator’s Note and no introductions, than to include these ones by C.Pereira and Soma Thera himself. I apologise if these comments seem too strong or offensive to anyone. Sarah ===== 16025 From: vimmuti Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:58am Subject: need a little dhamma wisdom plz yester day i asked 2 questions, Based on: The Four Arousings of Mindfulness "What are the four? "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief i would like to know if the pure and unqualified by mental labeleling tactile sensation (if using a touch kasina) is the primary object.. and do you feel the nimita or sign acquired when momentary concentration is acheived is a physical construct of the process of concentration.. thanks...henry 16026 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] need a little dhamma wisdom plz Hi Henry, Welcome to DSG. I see you've started with two tricky questions and I expect others are considering replies. Some of us are always quite behind, so don't worry if there's some delay. Let me look quickly at your first Qu.: --- vimmuti wrote: > yester day i asked 2 questions, Based on: > > The Four Arousings of Mindfulness > "What are the four? > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, > ardent, > clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in > this world, > covetousness and grief > > i would like to know if the pure and unqualified by mental labeleling > tactile sensation (if using a touch kasina) is the primary object.. > ..... As you know, we're discussing the Satipatthana Sutta (still on the introductions) and will be looking at this in more detail. When there is awareness of rupa (physical phenomena), experienced through any sense door, it is clear that only that rupa is experienced. Through the body door, this may be hardness/softness, heat/cold, motion/pressure. Anything else, including 'kasina' is a concept. These rupas are different from the consciousness (bodily experiencing if it's the body door) that experiences the object. As you suggest (I think), mental labelling is not the same as awareness or sati. I'm in a bit of a rush, so this may not sound very clear....let me know. Why not also introduce yourself and tell us a little more about your interest in Buddhism and where you live? Hope you find it useful on DSG, Sarah ====== 16027 From: vimmuti Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 6:32am Subject: ok Sarah First, my oldest daughters name is sarah so this feels like i found a good place. Been doing vipasana for about 30 years, mentors are Ven Piyananda, Mahasi Sayadaw, Satgayi U Ba Kin and currently Bhante Gunaratana where i am an occasional driver at his center. Mrs. Ruth Denison was my teacher... Do work for Wat Rangsee in Sterling Va. Was up in Vancouver about two weeks ago visiting the big temple in Richmond B.C. when i thought to myself, "what if we threw everything out except the practice, what would it look like as a daily video broadcast on the web, hmmm. So i built a little sit and chat channel on an ap called Paltalk and it is going pretty good. Here's an excerpt from a video chat on the 21st: Welcome Msg: Let's celebrate life for the whole human family with an informal buddhist sit each weekday. Whatever your religious persuasion we are all in this neat thing called "being" together. So let's dance and give thanks....:-) FlipperLaugh: www.bluemountainzendo.org quietmind1: the last place i wud go, seriously... quietmind1: well, maybe not the last////but it reeks of egoism and psychosis... quietmind1: how do i know... Well i helped kessei with the audio on his first web page... FlipperLaugh: yea you never finished FlipperLaugh: I have been waiting a year quietmind1: you could have had it if you had cooperated by simple yes and no answers but i and purplehaze another helper agree you are to lost in your own self importance... quietmind1: to=too for today FlipperLaugh: lol quietmind1: be well and happy, kessei... FlipperLaugh: now finish those sound bites and stop wasting time quietmind1: wanna hear the environmental background i think i will use for the sit portion of this show? quietmind1: you cud have had this plus your talks as a split two channel audio.. quietmind1: like white noise thru the right speaker... a looped chant very low and the instructions as we sit thru the left... FlipperLaugh: cool FlipperLaugh: I have yet to find out how to keep the music on throughout the page FlipperLaugh: page does not know how either FlipperLaugh: opps paz quietmind1: you will also notice no symbols. no heavy religion just sitting if you come... FlipperLaugh: I am a buddhist FlipperLaugh: but I understand why you would want to keep it neutral FlipperLaugh: being from the tradition you are in that is shocking quietmind1: well this is Kiss buddhism.... Keep It Simple, Stupid buddhism quietmind1: and who are we presenting this too. The Pali society...dont think so FlipperLaugh: Let Thich Nhat Hanh do that quietmind1: yeah. let him hinayana, mahayana, and this is the vehicle for dumb folks like you and me... vmh100: are we meditating? quietmind1: cud be... want to? vmh100: what??? quietmind??? quietmind1: yeah sure... know how quietmind1: do a 35min? quietmind1: flipper keeps time? vmh100: huh??? please give us some instruction quietmind1: want some intro v? vmh100: sure quietmind1: got to put me on your buddy list so i can shoot you the text... quietmind1: ready? vmh100: done quietmind1: ok got a pillow or cushion? vmh100: thanks FlipperLaugh: well I come here to hang out FlipperLaugh: not here to do zazen quietmind1: how about the pillow question? vmh100: I am reading the instruction now quietmind1: well that's ok, go tou have a webcam flip? quietmind1: read as do you.... FlipperLaugh: sure I do FlipperLaugh: I need some tampoons to make a kesa FlipperLaugh: do you have a kesa quiet? quietmind1: but, this room is not about a whole bunch of things. might be about 10 precepts and the reasons behind them or the four noble truths but not about things like reincarnation or buddhist cosmology or soul/no soul. quietmind1: just sit and then go over to smilingones pad if you want to chat is how i see it... FlipperLaugh: ahh quietmind1: how ya doing V? quietmind1: oh flip do you know how to use this ap to make everyone an administrator? vmh100: good FlipperLaugh: yes vmh100: why do we need to note the sensations when we experience them? FlipperLaugh: give me your code quietmind1: kuul ya wanna try the mindfulness of breath for say 10 mins...? quietmind1: ok, so that's how....thnks... quietmind1: vmh, what do you need to know so we can sit? vmh100: what are the benefits of vipassana? quietmind1: ok, i will show you but i have a lot of variations and styles for new meditators to help.. watch the video.... vmh100: where is the video? FlipperLaugh: quiet do you have it on DVD? vmh100: hello quietmind, are you still there? quietmind1: see you don't need much to get started.... quietmind1: did you click on the camera v? vmh100: yes, I see you sitting in a lotus position quietmind1: ok, now do you have a cushion or a pillow. And how do you think you could use it to sit quietly for some time? vmh100: i am sitting in a chair vmh100: i am sitting half lotus quietmind1: ok a chair is ok, but there is a but here. We use a chair for all sorts of things. It might be better to choose a special meditation position so that it reminds you what you are doing... got me? vmh100: there is a bell on my computer that rings every 15 miniutes and I stop doing everything and just pay attention to my breathe. vmh100: yes quietmind1: now do you have a pillow or cushion that you can put on the floor? vmh100: do i open or close my eyes while meditating? vmh100: yes quietmind1: in the beginning closed eyes are preffered as it reduces sensory distraction. After a couple months it doesn't matter. vmh100: ok quietmind1: ok i will show you 3 beginner postures suitable for people new to seated meditation. they are the tailors. the lions, and the womans... quietmind1: ready? quietmind1: camera on? vmh100: :) vmh100: yes vmh100: i can sit in half lotus vmh100: but gradually i want to sit in full lotus position quietmind1: did you identify all 3? vmh100: no i did not see any change on the video quietmind1: interesting????? quietmind1: do you see the screen get dark? vmh100: that's ok, i can sit in half lotus vmh100: no quietmind1: well, let's think about that for a sec.... the standard time of northern buddhist for a sit is about 45mins but for southern asian people it sometimes extends for as much as 3 hours.. How long do you think you can sit in half lotus without wiggling around or in pain? vmh100: not too long, because I am a beginner vmh100: about 15 minutes vmh100: what position are u sitting in the video? vmh100: it doesn't look like a lotus position? quietmind1: i picked the 35mins as a time i thought people should shoot for but i don't expect it. And i think it takes about 10 or 15 mins from the start to begin to get focused on the breathe.... quietmind1: i am sitting at my desk at the moment but yes i use a full lotus but i have been doing this for 30 years... vmh100: do u sit alone or with a group? quietmind1: both i sit 45mins twice a day and occasionally go to the temple... vmh100: i find sitting or practicing alone i tend to get lazy vmh100: i don't have a sangha to go to quietmind1: well that is why a little symbollic action can be a great help.. quietmind1: where do you live? vmh100: in canada quietmind1: symbollic means special position for body and hands, bowing. preliminary recital of prayer or wish, things like that vmh100: and you do that in your house with your family? quietmind1: what big town. i was just up in vancouver and it was loaded with buddhist temples. 32 flavors almost... quietmind1: yes/... vmh100: where are you from? quietmind1: virginia in the us vmh100: i am from a small town 100 km near Toronto quietmind1: on a mountain in the blue ridge appalachians.. vmh100: no buddhist or temple here that i know off vmh100: are you monastic or lay person? quietmind1: yeah, you could go to toronto once a month or something... vmh100: maybe. quietmind1: i am a worker for the Bhavana Society in Gore va and a lay person. Monks cant drive so i do that for them occasionally vmh100: oh vmh100: I would like to become a monk very soon quietmind1: how old are you? vmh100: 30 HaSsaWe: HI vmh100: hi hassawe quietmind1: ok, go to www.bhavanasociety.org and check out the Theravadin novice monk program. And i will end up driving you around too,,, vmh100: :) quietmind1: i mean it..... but in the meantime can i pop a couple more ideas on meditation? vmh100: have you heard of the vietnamese Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh quietmind1: yep, sure have, good writer and spokesperson for vietnamese buddhism HaSsaWe: c u ..i think i didn't get it bye quietmind1: bye quietmind1: what do you think focus on your breath means. Tell me how you would do that vmh100: yes I am thinking going to his monastery and practise vmh100: following the breathe, just feel the breathe coming in, and feel it going out. vmh100: know that's it the in breathe, and it's out breathe quietmind1: sort of. you fix your attention to where the greatest sensation of moving air is, cud be your nostrils, could be your upper lip cud be your sinus cavity in your nose,,, vmh100: ok quietmind1: you do not follow the inhalation or exhalation only the sensation got it? quietmind1: at one point... vmh100: i think i felt it in my nostril and abdominal quietmind1: the diaphram between your lungs and stomach is another good place but it is more complicated as you are now feeling a result and not the breath itself...got me? vmh100: yes quietmind1: we are interested in primary tactile sensation,,, quietmind1: let's try an experiment without even sitting, ok? vmh100: so is the nostril a good place to feel the sensation of the breathe? quietmind1: yes the experiment islet's see in one minute how long we can hold on to that sensation only without wandering around in our minds, ok? vmh100: yes quietmind1: ready. set. go........:-) quietmind1: ok!!!!! we did it,,,,, vmh100: :) quietmind1: ok now the wandering test. Me i was wandering about 70% of the time... You? vmh100: i felt some itch, some thought on this conversation, noise from outside quietmind1: good than you and i both know the difference between focus and non focus on a tactile stimuli... so that's great... vmh100: is that normal? quietmind1: now we have to work out a strategy so we are a hundred percent focused because in budd med that is called access concentration vmh100: access concentration? quietmind1: oh yes that is quite normal and an amazing thing occured. You noticed how flipflop your mind is. Imagine what comes up in an hour sit...:-) vmh100: yes many distraction quietmind1: ok, now do you have time on monday to sit with me at 5:30 EST? quietmind1: pm vmh100: sure, i will here vmh100: can I ask you some questions? quietmind1: kuul, we will do a 35min shot at concentration (i don't expect you to sit it thru) and then compare notes. One last thing and i have to go cut the grass,,,, quietmind1: counting and preliminary wish vmh100: are the Buddha's other basic teachings like the Four Noble Truth and Eightfold Path just as important as meditation? quietmind1: it is possible to partial block wandering mind by forming a nuemonic repetitious loop of verbal constructs. One good way is as the breathe touches your skin area on an inbreathe note 1. next breathe note 2, maybe up to 5 and then start over again... quietmind1: yes, probably more important and they lead to a lot of conjecture and anger and misunderstanding on paltalk as you know... vmh100: I see a lot of Westerners concentrate mainly on meditation and tend to ignore the Buddha's other essential teachings vmh100: maybe they think it conflict with their belief system vmh100: and from the asian side, some do a lot of worship and rituals and nothing to do with the Buddha's teachings quietmind1: Buddhism is an experiential religion that is growing. The size of the various books that are and have been written would fill a soccer stadium, Westeners get very confused as to what was meant. I am not teaching buddhism although i know a lot about it. I am trying to present the source as a living means quietmind1: if you joined me and flipper early enough that was why she left the channel, vmh100: if you don't teach the essence of the Buddha's teaching, beside just meditation, you missed out a lot vmh100: i know u are trying not to offend some of the people from other belief system vmh100: but the Buddha's teachings are not dogmatic quietmind1: ok, but by limiting myself on this channel to a nonverbal nonconjectural tiny bit that i understand very well i think i can interest young people in looking at the big picture... quietmind1: after all, i am not the dalai lama, just a guy who knows how to do vipasana meditation and has done it a loooong time...:-) vmh100: :) 30 years wow quietmind1: thirty years to life was my sentence and here i am... vmh100: i came to Buddhism several years ago when I read a book by Thich Nhat hanh "Peace is every step" vmh100: that book changed my outlook on life and buddhism quietmind1: he use to be published by the wheel society in kandy Sri Lanka and i use to read his zen stuff... quietmind1: this was when he was in saigon in the 70's. Good man, good heart... quietmind1: ok did you get the counting idea thatt habituates itself? vmh100: his explaination of Buddhism make a lot of sense to me and his teachings are very practical quietmind1: ok, now the preliminary prayer technique. Give me a short prayer you know... vmh100: no, what do u mean? quietmind1: go back to the point where i say it is possible to block wandering mind//// vmh100: prayer? I don't know any ;( quietmind1: ok, i will give you one to use, ok? vmh100: how is that? quietmind1: "may all living things be well and happy, may they be free from suffering, may they be strong self confident and peaceful" quietmind1: ok, here's how you use it.... ready? vmh100: yes...but I don't look at it as a prayer. quietmind1: yes, your wish is metta given to all living things... quietmind1: here's it's use in meditation. Ready? vmh100: yes quietmind1: at the start of the sit you do a gasho with your hands and repeat it silently. Every time you completely go off track you do gasho and repeat it silently. This clears your mind and you return to the focus subject. i,e, breathe quietmind1: did you understand the counting helper and the prayer helper? vmh100: ok i will try that in the future vmh100: thank you vmh100: can u explain the counting helper? quietmind1: enough for today. got to cut the grass. Seeya monday or whenever and e-mail me if you have any earth shaking questions. ok? vmh100: thank you vmh100: see you vmh100: :) vmh100: have a nice day quietmind vmh100: cut the grass in mindfullness :) quietmind1: ok, this is actually based on the idea thatif we habituate a repetitve pattern in the mind it will not think about anything else. we will work on this on monday or so...seeya and sometimes people like vmh100 want some text instructions so i send them: Satipathana Meditation An Introduction to Meditating An introduction to Satipathana Meditation Satipathana Meditation is also known as Insight Meditation, and the aim is to gain a better awareness of one's nature, whether physical, mental, or spiritual. One way to be more aware is by observing our perceptions; becoming aware of how we perceive with our senses. Every time one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches, or thinks, one should make a note of the fact, becoming aware of it happening, and observing one's reactions to that sense. However, it is difficult at first to make a note of every one, and so it is probably best to begin with noting those happening which are easily observed. Set aside about 20 minutes to practice meditating. To begin, find a quiet place to sit down, either cross-legged on the floor, or in a chair with a straight back. (If this is uncomfortable, you can also practice by lying on the floor.) Breathe through your nose, and start by observing your breathing, being aware of the touch of air at your nostrils or lip when you breathe in and breathe out. Try not to verbalize to yourself, "i am breathing in, now i am breathing out." Instead, try to stay with just the sensation. Feel it with your senses and hear the sound of your breathing,just the tactile sensation. Don't try to control your breathing, Neither slow it down, nor make it faster. Breathe steadily as usual and note the inhalation at the nosetip or upper lip as they occur. Note it mentally, not verbally, and don't try to judge it by thinking, "i am breathing too quickly," or "i am breathing too slowly."Try to be aware as each breath happens. Everyone who begins meditating will have a wandering mind. That is perfectly normal. Don't worry about it, but try to become aware of it. Just think, "My mind is wandering now." You shouldn't have to force your mind to stop wandering, but instead, "lead" it back to focusing on your breathing. After you catch yourself and note it a few times, it becomes easier to persuade your mind to refocus on your breathing. If your mind continues to wander, you can take note of what it is imagining. If you imagine you are talking with someone, note "talking" to yourself. Whatever activity your mind starts to imagine, note it to yourself, but without getting angry or frustrated that it is wandering. Also note if you are feeling an emotion, such as happy, sad, excited or bored. After you have been sitting (or lying) for awhile, you might notice that you are getting stiff, or sore, or feeling warm or cold. Try to take note of those feelings, instead of just reacting to them by moving or stretching. Note them, and gently move your focus back to your breathing. After about ten or 15 minutes, you should slowly open your eyes and gradually get up. Don't worry if you didn't have any great "insights" into the nature of being in your first sessions. Just try to be more aware of your senses and emotions and their impact on you. Try to practice meditation two or three times per day if possible. It is best to practice when you are not tired mentally, so meditating early in the morning is better than late at night. However, if for some reason you can't fall asleep at night, you can try the above exercise to help calm your mind and prepare you for sleep. After you have practiced the above techniques for a few days, try to practice being aware of your senses and emotions when you are in your daily routine. If you are on the bus, close your eyes and note how you are feeling, what you are hearing, how the bus is moving up and down or side to side. When you are working, note the sounds of the various items in the office, the background noise of the air conditioner, the shuffle of your coworkers feet across the carpet, the way you hold your hands and arms when you work. From here, i would highly recommend that you pick up a book on meditation and continue practicing. A good one is the "Meditation for Dummies" book (published by the people who make all those computer books "for Dummies.") And i hope you will come back and visit this dummy often...:-) now the way i was taught does not label sensation... even to hot, cold, rough ect. and because i want to be absolutely precise and in line with the dhamma and because i was taught to switch focus to the nimita and when it habituates and stabilizes use it as a microscope, i wondered what you thought....thanks, henry 16028 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, I am glad you mention how many versions you are using. I am > impressed by your thoroughness, as always. You do not walk over one night's > ice, as we say in Dutch. Meanwhile I looked into the P.T.S. dictionnary: > upa.t.thitaa sati: presence of mind. > pa.t.thaana: intent contemplation and mindfulness, application of > mindfulness. setting forth, setting up. > Also mentioned here: the four Applications of Mindfulness. > pa.t.thahati: to put down, to provide. > I also looked at kamma.t.thaana: occupation, meditation subject. > I looked up the note in DII, p. 324. It has been said that one should be > mindful in order to understand these terms. Thank-you for taking the time to look up these words and for pointing out the interesting note in the introduction to Rhys Davids' DN 22 translation. > As to the Way the Buddha and disciples went, the third meaning: this is in > the beginning of the sutta itself: the one way leading to the end of dukkha. > We deduct this meaning from the texts. I think it is difficult to find the > three meanings by word derivation alone. The commentarial section on the three meanings takes in the word derivation but I agree that we can't go on that alone but it's a good start. The MN subcommentary goes into more detail and there are some helpful remarks on the prefixes in the anutika to Vbh-a. You can see the 'upa.t.thaana' in the Sanskrit equivalent: 'sm.rtyupasthaana' as found in Buddhist Sanskrit texts. It is possible that the 'u' is elided in the Pali 'satipa.t.thaana'. Another thing I thought of is that sati+pa.t.thaana would normally be written as satippa.t.thaana (at least in a Burmese ed.) with the doubling of the 'p' in the prefix 'pa' but I've yet to see it written that way in any of the texts. > How can Ven. S translate it as the four frames of reference? I think the translation here of the phrase is by Ven. Thanissaro, not by Ven. Soma who translates it as the four arousings of mindfulness. I don't at all agree with Ven. Thanissaro's rendering (reference for sati??). I find Thanissaro's renderings of some words and phrases too way out and distracting for me. I don't at all care for his Unbinding for nibbaana. I prefer the more conservative translations such as those of ~Naa.namoli and B. Bodhi. It may take awhile before I make much headway into the study of the three satipatthaanas as I've only just started to carefully check through all those many versions. At the same time I often get sidetracked by various dsg topics coming up in the discussions on Soma's The Way that are of interest to me. Most recently my attention turned to the meaning and derivation of 'apilaapana' (often translated as non-floating) which is a problem word as the derivation is unclear and I've seen three possibilities so far but I have put this aside for now as I could easily spend days just studying this one word. I think there must be enough material in the Satipatthana Sutta and its commentaries to keep one occupied for years and years. My responses to yours and Sarah's responses on the objects of mindfulness issue will have to wait for a long time. I just don't know enough at this time to respond. Would it be fair to say that the four domains or fields (gocaras) of satipatthana are kaaya, vedanaa, citta, and dhammas? Best wishes, Jim 16029 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:38pm Subject: Way 6, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued This Middle Way of Mindfulness is clearly not based on revelation, dogmas, nor vacuous beliefs like those in a Supreme Creator God and an Eternal Soul, irrational in the extreme. What is irrational is not the Teaching of the Buddha though it be found in Buddhist Scriptures. On the contrary, "Whatever is well said is the Word of the Buddha," even when it is not the Master's own utterance, because the Blessed One acknowledges Truth wherever and by whomsoever spoken. To raise up the person to a keen sense of awareness in regard to an object and to bring into activity, to call forth, and stir up the controlling faculty, the power, the enlightenment factor and the way factor of mindfulness is the Arousing of Mindfulness designed. Every Arousing of Mindfulness in regard to body feeling, consciousness or a mental object can be considered as a beginning of the road to insight. And so these "arousings" are, in a sense, "starting-points". Further with the Arousing of Mindfulness one wakes up heedfulness, intentness and carefulness, and is in a state of mental preparedness in regard to any work in hand. These Arousings of Mindfulness are many as regards objects but are one in the sense of taking place in a single way of quietude charged with insight that leads to Nibbana. All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective. According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects. According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object. Further, contemplation on the body destroys the delusion of beauty; that on feeling destroys the delusion of pleasure; contemplation on consciousness dispels the delusion of permanence; and that on mental objects, the delusion of the soul. The person who wishes to practice meditation according to the instruction of the Buddha on the Arousing of Mindfulness should first read the discourse, with the commentary on the synopsis, and get a fair idea of the trend of the teaching. Today, there are still people as of old who learn the discourse by heart as a preparation to practice. Such memorizing is helpful to certain types. But it is not essential. What is essential is to think long and deep on the instruction, until one gets the hang of its application to daily life. Only by repeated reflection on all the implications of it, can the discourse be made an effective instrument of mental culture. The core of the instruction is in the sections dealing with the modes of deportment and clear comprehension. These are intended for all types of aspirants. The commentary on these sections is very important and should be carefully studied. The whole practice of mindfulness depends on the correct grasp of the exercises included in the two parts referred to here. One should then look through the rest of the exercises in the discourse with the help of the commentary to find a preliminary object of concentration or subject of meditation that accords with one's character, temperament and cognizing slant mentioned earlier. If, for instance, one is an extrovert mentally languid or a person whose cognizing slant is intuitive and is temperamentally slow of mind, the contemplation on breathing could well suit that one as a preliminary object. If one finds the explanation given in the commentary to the discourse on mindfulness on any preliminary object one chooses insufficient, one should read the exposition of it in the Path of Purification [Visuddhi Magga] of our commentator. One may if a teacher of Buddhist meditation can be found, also consult him and ask for elucidation of any difficult points connected with meditative practice. Necessary too to be read by all are the portions of the commentary on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, and those on the hindrances, the sense-bases and the factors of Enlightenment (in the contemplation of Mental Objects) which give information on the obstacles and aids to concentration on the preliminary object. 16030 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:37pm Subject: logical Hello all, Picking up a somewhat dated thread I found an interesting section in "Early Madhyamika in India and China," by Richard Robinson. (I'm looking for something intelligible to read on the subject, if there is any such, and just thumbed through this in the library.) It contains a very good account of the tetralemma which is much what was proposed earlier. This is an account of the logic in itself. (In classical logic, recall: A. all x is a E. no x is a I. some x is a O some x is not-a) 1. All x is a. (Simply A.) 2. No x is a. (Simply E.) 3. Some x is a, some x is not-a. (This is the conjunction of I and O; a very plausible reading of what is otherwise a straightforward contradiction.) 4. No x is a and no x is not-a. (So the fourth is seen as the conjunction of the contradictions of the conjuncts of #3: no x is a => some x is a, and no x is not-a => some x is not-a.) Now since no x is not-a = all x is a, the fourth is the conjunction of A and E. This seems to me to be sensible, though a somewhat inferior system to Aristotle's. Since it maps entirely onto the classical syllogistic logic there is no question of third truth values or new types of logic. I, personally, find this comforting. metta, stephen 16031 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] illogical? - Nina in particular Hello Nina, all An alternative point of view, on most everything >Dear Stephen, >We should look at the whole context of the Brahmajala sutta and study such >ways of reasoning people had at that time (and even now). Yes, I think the historical context is very important, and agree that the reasoning then is, necessarily, much as now. (So, e.g., anatta is better seen as not-atta than not-self; what was being denied is clearer that way.) >Ven. Bodhi has a good intro, it is on line. Now, under Doctrines of Endless Equivocation, amaraavikkhepavaada, or eelwriggling, under the fourth case, D: Does >the Tathagata exist after death, not exist, both exist and not exist, neither >exist nor not exist.. >who are endless equivocators resort to evasive statements and endless >equivocation...> To my embarrassment, I can't find this intro. The point of the sutta seems clear, though why the Buddha didn't answer concerning the Tathagata after death is not, actually, entirely clear to me. It's not a view, one supposes, in his case; he knows. Would it not be an incentive, say to Malunkhyaputta (and me) to simply say such and such is the case? It doesn't seem beside the point; but then I want answers to all those questions he asked myself ;-) >In the Cula Malunkyasutta, the Buddha does not answer such questions, it >is endless equivocation. There is birth, aging, dying... He points to the >goal. We should not forget the essence of his teaching: he taught the four >noble Truths. Oh, all right. And how can we learn what dukkha is? It is the arising and >falling away of nama and rupa, each moment. No, not really. It's the *attachment* to the rising a falling. Not the khandha but the upadanakkhandas. >How can this be realized? By >first knowing precisely what nama is, what rupa is: a reality to be >experienced one at a time through one of the six doors, at this very moment. No, even if one could experience this, and even if this distinction is real, it wouldn't make any real difference or provide insight. What's needed is insight into one's clinging (through vipassana, one supposes); there's nothing wrong with namarupa in itself. Such knowledge (of sense-data), if any, would miss the picture. >Kom and Larry's dialogue is most important and essential, as Sarah said. >What is a concept, what is a reality. A concept is that which makes known, >thus, a name, or the idea that is made known. Yes, exactly: that which makes known. Without a concept nothing is known; all seeing is seeing-as. All perception is theory laden. Everything is 'merely' conceptualized. (Now if you're going to tell me that nama-pannatti is that which makes known and I'm misusing the definition..., but I'm doing so on purpose.) >We should not confuse >concepts with thinking. Thinking itself is real and it can think of what >is real or what is not real but what is a concept. This is an odd use of the word "thinking." I think in words all the time. >I hope this clarifies, Well, you gave it a good shot. What can one do about those obdurate types? >best wishes from Nina. >P.S. I do not like the taste of chocolate. WHAT!? Now in this case you're clearly, outrageously WRONG. Chocolate is utterly delicious! Before I get too carried away objecting ;-) metta, stephen 16032 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 6:32pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, Here are some random (perhaps related) thoughts. Consider the statement "The cup is on the table" as "X". "NOT X" will be "The cup is not on the table". The union of "X" and "NOT X" is the sample space, in other words, "The cup is either on the table or it is not on the table". The intersection of "X" and "NOT X" is the null set, in other words, "The cup cannot be both on the table and not on the table" Now the results of this symbolic logic are only true for *ONE INSTANT IN TIME*. This morning, my coffee cup has been both on the table and off the table (though never both at the same time). How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? I have been pondering over this question for almost thirty years... this led me to abandon the study of Decartes, Kant and other western philosophers (they were heavily into "logic") and look for another perspective. Eventually that led me to Buddhism (I have to watch myself and make sure that I keep generally to the topic of Buddhism or risk incurring the wrath of the moderators :-) ). I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? I also want to revert to the original reason that I rasied this issue. I am (still) preparing a class showing how ancient Buddhism is still relevant (perhaps even more relevant) in these days of modern science. Traditional science says that existence is a "yes" or "no" thing; a duality. Modern science (quantum theory) says existence is a "probability wave" thing and rejects both the "yes" and the "no" extremes. I want to show that the Suttas are not in conflict with modern science. In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which Sutta was that? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > > Picking up a somewhat dated thread I found an interesting section in "Early > Madhyamika in India and China," by Richard Robinson. (I'm looking for > something intelligible to read on the subject, if there is any such, and just > thumbed through this in the library.) It contains a very good account of the > tetralemma which is much what was proposed earlier. This is an account of the > logic in itself. > > (In classical logic, recall: > A. all x is a > E. no x is a > I. some x is a > O some x is not-a) > > 1. All x is a. (Simply A.) > 2. No x is a. (Simply E.) > 3. Some x is a, some x is not-a. (This is the conjunction of I and O; a very > plausible reading of what is otherwise a straightforward contradiction.) > 4. No x is a and no x is not-a. (So the fourth is seen as the conjunction of > the contradictions of the conjuncts of #3: no x is a => some x is a, and no x > is not-a => some x is not-a.) > Now since no x is not-a = all x is a, the fourth is the conjunction of A and > E. > > This seems to me to be sensible, though a somewhat inferior system to > Aristotle's. Since it maps entirely onto the classical syllogistic logic > there is no question of third truth values or new types of logic. I, > personally, find this comforting. > metta, stephen 16033 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: logical Hi Stephen and Rob, I don't have the slightest idea what you guys are talking about but the base of neither perception nor non-perception is an example of the fourth "lemma." Larry 16034 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 7:25pm Subject: Re: logical ...just a quick afterthought, The tetralemma was used by the Buddha, though I found the best account in a book concerning Madhyamika, which also used this method. It came up originally in a discussion of the Culamalunkya Sutta (#63 in the MN) in regard to its application to the state of a Tathagata after death. I think that the use of this logical system is interesting in itself, and could possibly shed some light on its use in the Suttas. Here's an interesting reference: "He [Nagarjuna] deployed a tetralemmic logic already adopted by Buddha in the early Pali texts (such as in the Brahmajala-sutta, Digha-Nikaya I). In the Pali tradition, the use of the Tetralemma is initially attributed to Sañjaya, a skeptical teacher whose students challenged Buddha early in Buddha's teaching career. Two of Sañjaya's students, Upatissa and Kolita, were won over, and went on to become two of Buddha's most important disciples, better known in the Buddhist tradition by the names Sariputta and Moggallana. It is possible that it was they who introduced the tetralemmic method to Buddhism." (http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/yogacara/thinkers/nagarjuna-bio -uni.htm) Sorry for any confusion that a Mahayana logical system was being discussed, though it became that, eventually, as well. If anyone thinks that the tetralemma changed, or had a different use in the Suttas, I'd be quite interested in hearing how. metta, stephen 16035 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: logical Hi Stephen, I sympathised very easily with Larry’s comment about your first post;-) many thanks for the clarification and touching base with the sutta references;-)) Logical? Illogical? --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > . > the Pali tradition, the use of the Tetralemma is initially attributed to > > Sañjaya, a skeptical teacher whose students challenged Buddha early in > Buddha's teaching career. > Sorry for any confusion that a Mahayana logical system was being > discussed, > though it became that, eventually, as well. If anyone thinks that the > tetralemma changed, or had a different use in the Suttas, I'd be quite > interested in hearing how. ======================= As Nina mentioned before, in the suttas it falls under the Doctrines of Endless Equivocation (amaaavikkhepavaada) as discussed in the Brahmajala Sutta. “It does not die, thus it is endless (amaraa, lit. ‘immortal’). What is this? the view and speech of this theorist, which go on hedging without limits. ‘Equivocation’ (vikkhepa): tossing back and forth in diverse ways (vividha khepa). ‘Endless equivocation’: equivocation through endless views and speech.” ***** In the commentaries, we read about a number of queries regarding these and other comments (p165f, B.Bodhi transl). This is one of them which I’m quoting as it mentions Sanjaya: “Query: Isn’t it true that insofar as he takes a stand on the side of equivocation, he makes a positive affirmation of the equivocal position? Reply: No, because he is utterly deluded about that as well, and because the doctrine of equivocation occurs only by way of rejection. For example, when Sanjaya Belatthaputta was asked by King Ajatasattu about an immediately visible fruit of recluseship, he equivocated by repudiating the triad of views on the world beyond, etc.” ***** As I mentioned in an earlier post, we read in this sutta that all wrong views are contained within the net of the 62 views elaborated: “Whatever recluses or brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past, or speculators about the future, or speculators about the past and the future together, hold settled views about the past and the future, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future, all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.” From the subcommentary we read further: “Therefore, those doctrines which are found in the Samannaphala Sutta (D.2) and in various other suttas, such as the doctrines of the moral ineficacy of action (akiriyavaada), or moral acausality (ahetukavaada), of nihilism (natthikavaada) etc, as well as the speculative views about God (issara), the Lord of Creation (pajaapati), the Primordial Spirit (purisa), time (kaala), nature (sabhaava), fate (niyati), chance (yadicchaa), etc found outside the suttas - all of these should be included and comprised in these three groups.” Referring to this paragraph a little later: “By the first ‘etc’ (after nihilism above), the doctrines of the Niganthas (the Jains) and others are included. Although the doctrine of Nataputta (Mahavira) has come down in the texts by way of the ‘fourfold restraint’ (caatuyaamasa.mvara), nevertheless, because of the evasiveness involved in its method of the sevenfold predicable, it is included in the doctrine of endless equivocation, just as Sanjaya’s doctrine is.” ***** Stephen, if you don’t already have a copy, please order the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries from BPS. There is a lot more detail than I can type out here. I think you would also find the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy transl by Aung & Rhys Davids)) and its commentary (The Debates commentary transl by Bimala Law) from PTS very interesting and readable in spite of being abhidhamma texts;-) Hope this helps a little. Sarah === 16036 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] not new but here again. Hi Derick, --- wink_1000 wrote: > Hello all. > > I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back > again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting > it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) > > Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. .... Thanks for letting us know. Very glad to see you back too - hope this time you don't get 'blown away' by all the ‘hardcore’ dhamma;-) For those who are new of don’t remember you, I’ve retrieved your intro (hope you don’t mind): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m325.html You also wrote the following post which I really liked - and the questions were very much to the point. Rob M will find the last paragraph of particular interest as he’s expressed just the same sentiments about the DSG homepage;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m589.html I’d be glad to hear if you have the same questions and we’re all pretty used to ‘direct’ or ‘ouspoken’. Best wishes, Sarah p.s Nina just wrote a long series on anapanasati. Much of it is in (or will soon be in) the Useful Posts and you may wish to look at it. There will also be plenty more discussion from all sides when we get to the section on breath in the Satipatthana Sutta discussions. ============================================= 16037 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:14am Subject: When a being has laid down this body Dear Group, "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about Rebirth. "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the wind is its fuel." "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel." What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between death and rebirth? metta, Christine 16038 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:00am Subject: Re: When a being has laid down this body Dear Group, And a friend just sent me this quote: "Majjhima Nikaya 9 'Sammaditthi Sutta' The Discourse on Right View "There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and FOR THE SUPPORT OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE." It sounds like they must be hanging about 'somewhere' ... http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/mn009.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta > of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' > > I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The > Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about > Rebirth. > "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some > distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that > occasion?" > "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I > declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the > wind > is its fuel." > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." > > What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere > in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. > Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between > death and rebirth? > > metta, > Christine 16039 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/2/02 6:15:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta > of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' > > I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The > Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about > Rebirth. > "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some > distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that > occasion?" > "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I > declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the > wind > is its fuel." > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." > > What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere > in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. > Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between > death and rebirth? > > metta, > Christine > ============================= This is an excellent observation you make. Peter Harvey also references this in his book The Selfless Mind to support the claim that the original Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka, contrary to Theravada, does countenance intermediate states (Tibetan 'bardo') between realms of existence/experience. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16040 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Christine, Regarding your questions on the following: > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." I think the problem lies in the translation. The Pali for "A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY" is: ima~nca kaaya.m nikkhipati satto . . . -- S IV 400 'nikkhapati' is a verb in the present tense: lays down, is laying down (this body). Note that B. Bodhi (the translator?) has translated it in the past tense: has laid down. The commentary (Spk III 114) explains "HAS NOT (YET) BEEN REBORN" (anuppanno) in this way: "has not arisen" -- has not arisen owing to the (yet) non-arisen state of the birth-consciousness (pa.tisandhicittassa) at the death-moment (cutikkha.ne). Woodward translates the line in question as: "At the time, Vaccha, when a being lays aside this body and rises up again in another body . . ." -- GS iv 281 Here there is a problem with "and rises up again in another body" where 'rises up again' is the opposite of 'has not yet been reborn' in Bodhi's translation. Regarding the following MN 9 (M i 48) passage from your next post: "There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and FOR THE SUPPORT OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE." "OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.). The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards). Best wishes, Jim 16041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Jim, Thank you for the further info. I meant Ven. Thanissaro, difficult to follow him. op 01-10-2002 18:11 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > My responses to yours and Sarah's responses on the objects of > mindfulness issue will have to wait for a long time. I Would it be fair to say that the four > domains or fields (gocaras) of satipatthana are kaaya, vedanaa, citta, > and dhammas? N: Exactly. I am also thinking of the Sutta on the falcon and the warning that the monk should keep to his own range: the four satipatthanas. In the dict. PTS, gocara: pasture, range and also object, sense object. Like visaya: locality, realm, range, and also object. Best wishes, Nina. 16042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:00am Subject: Intro by Ven. Soma Dear Sarah and all, Ven. Soma, as you say, has given us a great gift by his translation. But there are some points we are wondering about. We can notice that he stresses very much: virtue, and this first, and also tranquillizing concentration. It is understandable that he writes in this way because he is a monk. The monk's life is different from the laylife. The monk should live as an arahat. He should carefully observe the monk's sila and if he transgresses he should confess this and make amends. Also he leads a life where there is more opportunity for Samatha. When people read this Intro they may believe that satipatthana as like a meditation you have to do in quiet. But the Buddha also taught to laypeople. Everybody can apply his teachings in his own situation. Laypeople do not have to live like monks in order to develop satipatthana. Here are just a few thoughts, Nina. 16043 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Howard, Jim and All, Howard, thank you for your post. I would be very interested if you have the time to see if Prof. Harvey has anything of significance to say about 'something' that exists between births. Does he come to any conclusions himself, as to the likelihood or otherwise of a 'something' waiting in a 'somewhere' for 'sometime' after death and before rebirth? ( I wonder about what 'form' it would take in between births in very different Planes; how long it would be there and what it would do while there). And I also wonder how this would integrate with what I have been taught about the absolute anatta-ness of everything. Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - even in a multi-cultural area.:). It is just frustrating to be in the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves are in error. Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or a semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the Scriptures and translations. In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of the mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A WOMB TAKES PLACE." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > This is an excellent observation you make. Peter Harvey also > references this in his book The Selfless Mind to support the claim that the > original Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka, contrary to > Theravada, does countenance intermediate states (Tibetan 'bardo') between > realms of existence/experience. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Regarding your questions on the following: > > > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has > not > > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > > be its fuel on that occasion?" > > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET > BEEN > > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. > For > > on that occasion craving is its fuel." <<>> 16044 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > a crucially important matter don't you think? I am going to play devil's advocate here and take an opposing view. "Instantaneous rebirth" or "non-Instantaneous rebirth" does not impact kamma, four noble truths, eightfold noble path, paticcasamuppada or any of the "core" teachings of the Buddha. Why make it an issue? Tissa was reborn as a flea for seven days because he was attached to his robe. Following that, he was again reborn as a deva in Tusita heaven. Unlike the deva planes (and higher), the four woeful planes and the human plane have indefinite lifespans. Why can't we be born in one of these planes for a short time and then be reborn into another plane due to our reserve (katatta) kamma? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16045 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Way 7, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued In concentration of any preliminary object, say the breath, if any feeling or thought that interferes with concentration arises, then one should contemplate on that interfering phenomenon in a manner that accords to the exposition on feeling, consciousness, the hindrances, or the sense-bases, in the commentary, until the interference disappears and then revert to the preliminary object. Similarly, when attending to the preliminary object, any over-activeness or slackness present should be overcome by the method taught in the exposition on the factors of Enlightenment in the commentary and then there will be steady work possible on the object of concentration. It is useful to bear in mind that either the favorable or the unfavorable qualities increase by pondering over them and decrease by the turning away of attention from them. In beginning to practice mindfulness, one has to become aware of one's actions, speech and thoughts, and drive these towards good as a cow-herd his charge to healthy pastures. It is helpful to get into the habit of preparing the mind before proceeding to act, and to pause a while before initiating new activities. By such practice one learns to act deliberately, consciously, and with circumspection, and not on the spur of the moment, and so does everything prepared to face all consequences, and with a proper sense of responsibility. Wholetime practice of mindfulness consists in the carrying out of each of the three following activities of contemplation at the proper time: attention to the preliminary object of concentration, reflection on the modes of deportment and clear comprehension. When one is not attending to the preliminary object for one good reason or another, one should be reflecting on the modes of deportment, or be doing clear comprehension. Wholetime practice of mindfulness can be carried out by all. There will however be differences to the degree of intensiveness of the practice according to the "busy-ness" of the individual. The more one is busy with external activities, the less time will be at his disposal for attending to the preliminary object, and also for steady reflection on deportment and for penetratively clear comprehension. One should therefore try to cut and also slow down as much as one can, rightly and reasonably, one's external activities. Who reflects on his movements and clearly comprehends states of activity and rest as taught in the commentary has his mind turned towards self-mastery. The preliminary object, however, is the basis of the practice, and is the resort of the aspirant, or the main object and ground of contemplation. The Way of Mindfulness is the objective way of viewing anything whatsoever. It reckons just what is present and stopping the garrulity of one's own mind, lets the objects speak for themselves and unfold their character. Also, by its patient pursuit of the meaning of things, its readiness to see every side of any thought or experience, and by its breadth and tolerance, it predisposes the mind to receive the impressions of truth, induces inner pliancy and the mood of spiritual receptivity, necessary for highest intuition. Since mindfulness is the only way for anyone who wishes inner happiness, men of old, irrespective of the school of thought to which they belonged, underlined the importance of the Buddha's teaching on this point. In his "Friendly Letter," Nagarjuna says: "The Happy One (Sugata) said that the only way to be walked on is mindfulness directed bodywards; therefore keep to it resolutely; for if mindfulness is lacking, all good Dhamma) decays." And Santideva in his Bodhicaryavatara says: "If the mind, the tusker maddened with passion, is bound completely with the rope of mindfulness, then all perils disappear and all blessings come into being." In the Theravada countries of South-East Asia, the Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness is well-known and much appreciated. Especially so is it in Burma today, where monk and layman go from time to time into solitude for training along this Way, under the guidance of some "meditation-master". In Burmese meditation monasteries each meditator is given a separate cell. He is not allowed to speak to any but the meditation master during the time of training. No books and no repetition of formulae are permitted. The business of the meditator is to keep mindfulness going during the whole of the waking state. Making his inhalations and exhalations the basic subject of meditation, he has to be mindful of his postures, completely aware of his behavior (going forwards etc.) and to attend to his feelings, thoughts and ideas as they arise, according to the instructions of the meditation master. Seldom does a stretch of hard training extend over a month. The aim of the meditation master is to lessen the conceptualizing proclivities of the pupil and lead him towards appreciating the "nature of the thing". This he does by encouraging bare or pure mindfulness, and letting transcience and the other characteristics of the mental and bodily objects become clear by dint of concentrated attention, because true understanding of reality must in the last resort be based on profound personal experience. Otherwise it cannot change the character of the meditator in that final and irrevocable way of Arahantship contemplated by this method. The meditation master does not load the pupil's mind with all the many particulars found in the commentary but selects what is just necessary for each pupil's progress and instructs accordingly. Continued practice of the arousings of mindfulness instills into the meditator the habit of systematic or proper attention (yoniso manasikara) regarding the details of a thing, and accustoms him to test all phenomena for their inherent characteristics of transience and so forth. Thus he gradually learns to turn away from the worldling's view of things and look at them by way of condition, cause, dependent origination, element etc., and becomes, in spirit, one with the Dhamma. The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness is one among the discourses often repeated by Buddhists and its traditional importance is seen further by its use as the viaticum to support one passing away from this life to another. The use of it as a death-bed discourse points out that mindfulness besides being one of the foremost qualities needed for holy living, is also a quality that makes for holy dying. Truly, a first and last thing. Soma Thera 16046 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 7, Intro cont ST: "Nagarjuna says: "The Happy One (Sugata) said that the only way to be walked on is mindfulness directed bodywards; therefore keep to it resolutely; for if mindfulness is lacking, all good Dhamma) decays."" L: I think this should read: the only way [for the path] to be walked on... Larry 16047 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Way 8, sutta Dear group, The next section of the book is the sutta. Since it would be premature to discuss it why don't we say everyone read the entire sutta (maybe several times) and we will begin the commentary monday evening, my time? Also you may be interested in comparing translations if you have time. Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 16048 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one >time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? My first inclination is to say I disagree, perhaps with a reference to kamma: act/cetana now, result/vipaka later. All are actions are in time. But what do you mean? It's sometimes held that logical / mathematical statements are outside of time, just the opposite. (And the temporal status of logical truths creates problems: If it's true that you will brush your teeth tomorrow morning then isn't it determined? You have to, if it's true. There's something wrong here but it's not so easy to say what. I think it's related to what you're saying.) >I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky >notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved >phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? Well, not phenomenology, but yes, direct experience. Still, there's a point in discussing logic, among other things. Philosophy texts often begin with a chapter on logic or critical thinking. What are the canons of reasoning, what kinds of evidence should be accepted. This seems to center almost entirely on the Kalama sutta these days but there's more to it. >In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as >mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- >existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which >Sutta was that? I almost have it in my head; is that helpful? It'll flash on me then I'll see if I can't find on online source. And a wonderful commentary so you won't be misled into some third reality beyond the real and unreal ;-) metta, stephen 16049 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Christine, > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning however small can be of help. I first came into contact with Buddhism in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it was time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues to be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was one of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here! > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - > even in a multi-cultural area.:). I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who was doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own with the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as one just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep it alive, the rest will follow. > It is just frustrating to be in > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves are > in error. This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check the translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English. > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a > Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or a > semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and > others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the > Scriptures and translations. The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. > In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse > on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing > the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). > There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In > the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the > Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes > place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of the > mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO > BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of an > embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, > and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT > PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a > womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is > the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH > THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A > WOMB TAKES PLACE." "THE BEING TO BE REBORN" is 'gandhabba' in Pali. I'm not at all clear on this term as the commentary says that 'gantabba' is what is really meant. Gandhabba is also a term used for a lower class of deities sometimes referred to as celestial musicians (cupids?) who facilitate conception. There is a chapter in SN called Gandhabbasa.myutta. More research would be needed for me to say much more. Best wishes, Jim 16050 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Chris - In a message dated 10/2/02 4:45:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Howard, Jim and All, > > Howard, thank you for your post. I would be very interested if you > have the time to see if Prof. Harvey has anything of significance to > say about 'something' that exists between births. Does he come to > any conclusions himself, as to the likelihood or otherwise of > a 'something' waiting in a 'somewhere' for 'sometime' after death and > before rebirth? ( I wonder about what 'form' it would take in between > births in very different Planes; how long it would be there and what > it would do while there). And I also wonder how this would > integrate with what I have been taught about the absolute anatta-ness > of everything. > =========================== Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the occultists. I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are empty of essence, empty of self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16051 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 8:19pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > >How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one > >time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? > My first inclination is to say I disagree, perhaps with a reference to kamma: > act/cetana now, result/vipaka later. All are actions are in time. > But what do you mean? === I believe that time does not exist. It is a construct of the human mind. I believe that this is an area where Einstein and the Buddha are in accordance. However, I do not believe that the fact that time is not an ultimate reality (paramattha dhamma) denies causality. Some people, such as profesor Stanley Sobottka, use the non-reality of time to deny causality and thereby deny the existence of kamma (see his materials at http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ ). I do not agree with this position. Filita P. Bharucha takes a stab at this issue in his book, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity" (lots of math, not light reading) and so does Venerable Nyanaponika Thera in his article "The Problem of Time" in the book "Abhidhamma Studies". My understanding (still evolving as I wade through this material) is that causality is a local phenomena, existing only within a specific frame of reference (i.e. one stream of kammic consciousness). This understanding allows me to reconcile both Einstein's theory of relativity (time is a concept) and kamma (causality). > It's sometimes held that logical / mathematical statements are outside of > time, just the opposite. > (And the temporal status of logical truths creates problems: If it's true > that you will brush your teeth tomorrow morning then isn't it determined? You > have to, if it's true. There's something wrong here but it's not so easy to > say what. I think it's related to what you're saying.) > === I also have some comments on this issue, but as they do not relate directly to Buddhism, I am not going to post them here. Feel free to email me if you want to have an off-line discussion. === > >I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky > >notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved > >phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? > Well, not phenomenology, but yes, direct experience. Still, there's a point > in discussing logic, among other things. Philosophy texts often begin with a > chapter on logic or critical thinking. What are the canons of reasoning, what > kinds of evidence should be accepted. This seems to center almost entirely on > the Kalama sutta these days but there's more to it. === Here is a section of the Kalama Sutta giving the criterion for rejection of teachings: "Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.'" How do you interpret the rejection of "axioms" and "specious reasoning" (I have seen "specious reasoning" translated as "logic" as well)? === > > >In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as > >mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- > >existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which > >Sutta was that? > I almost have it in my head; is that helpful? It'll flash on me then I'll see > if I can't find on online source. And a wonderful commentary so you won't be > misled into some third reality beyond the real and unreal ;-) Looking forward to it :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) 16052 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 9:20pm Subject: catukotika Hi all, Here's a curiosity. I looked up logic in Vism. and found catukotika (quadruple logical relation). It refers to a way of analysing self according to four findings as expounded in MN 106 par. 8: 1. There is no self in these khandhas. 2. There is nothing that could be considered anyone's son, brother, friend etc. in these khandhas. 3. There is no self in those khandhas. 4. There is nothing that could be considered my parent, brother, sister, friend, etc. in those khandhas. "When he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, his mind acquires confidence in this base. Once there is full confidence, he either attains to the base of nothingness now or else he decides upon [perfecting] wisdom." Anenjasappaya Sutta This is my reading, not sure if it is correct. The language is a little peculiar. Larry 16053 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 5:48pm Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >How do you interpret the rejection of "axioms" and "specious >reasoning" (I have seen "specious reasoning" translated as "logic" >as well)? "Specious reasoning" sounds good (who wants to be specious?) but it's off the mark, I think; why even say that, it's too obvious. But how not to deny reason altogether (which is, of course, wider than "logic"). How about "mere reason?" Be reasonable, but that's not enough. Direct experience, as we spoke before. Consider MN.ii.170-171 where it's said that 5 things have two types of consequences. Thinking according to reason is one: Things that one has thought out carefully can turn out to be false, things one hasn't considered can turn out to be true. I think this is about remaining at the level of just reading and thinking and reasoning. All good (I want to think) but inadequate. I'll be interested in hearing how one can have causality without time; though, I think I'm going to agree with you, in some way that is just what Einstein held. But Einstein was a determinist and the Buddha was not; kamma won't work without time. Now we're broaching freewill, but leaving this troublesome word aside, the future as determined, despite what we do, was rejected. Difficult to get one's mind around. (I now have the sutta under question? but not the comments yet, so, in fairness: SN XII.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta; it can possible stand without my interpretation ;-) metta, and good night, stephen 16054 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Re: catukotika Hi Larry, Are you planning on joining Stephen and I in the "logical philosophers" corner? :-) You are welcome, but the rules are that you have to reference Buddhism in at least every other paragraph. :-) I knew that you were holding back when yesterday you wrote, "I don't have the slightest idea what you guys are talking about..." :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Here's a curiosity. I looked up logic in Vism. and found catukotika > (quadruple logical relation). It refers to a way of analysing self > according to four findings as expounded in MN 106 par. 8: > > 1. There is no self in these khandhas. > > 2. There is nothing that could be considered anyone's son, brother, > friend etc. in these khandhas. > > 3. There is no self in those khandhas. > > 4. There is nothing that could be considered my parent, brother, sister, > friend, etc. in those khandhas. > > "When he practices in this way and frequently abides thus, his mind > acquires confidence in this base. Once there is full confidence, he > either attains to the base of nothingness now or else he decides upon > [perfecting] wisdom." Anenjasappaya Sutta > > This is my reading, not sure if it is correct. The language is a little > peculiar. > > Larry 16055 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Rob, > >How do you interpret the rejection of "axioms" and "specious > >reasoning" (I have seen "specious reasoning" translated as "logic" > >as well)? > "Specious reasoning" sounds good (who wants to be specious?) but it's off the > mark, I think; why even say that, it's too obvious. But how not to deny > reason altogether (which is, of course, wider than "logic"). How about "mere > reason?" Be reasonable, but that's not enough. Direct experience, as we spoke > before. > Consider MN.ii.170-171 where it's said that 5 things have two types of > consequences. Thinking according to reason is one: Things that one has > thought out carefully can turn out to be false, things one hasn't considered > can turn out to be true. I think this is about remaining at the level of just > reading and thinking and reasoning. All good (I want to think) but > inadequate. ==== I am very happy with this explanation. It has resolved a 30-year-old question in my mind. Thank you! ==== > > I'll be interested in hearing how one can have causality without time; > though, I think I'm going to agree with you, in some way that is just what > Einstein held. But Einstein was a determinist and the Buddha was not; kamma > won't work without time. Now we're broaching freewill, but leaving this > troublesome word aside, the future as determined, despite what we do, was > rejected. Difficult to get one's mind around. === I believe that kamma can work without time. I am trying to figure the details out and how to express it clearly... give me some time (oops, there's that word again!) I have been wrestling with free-will for some time and recently made some progress (see my message 15951). === > (I now have the sutta under question? but not the comments yet, so, in > fairness: > SN > XII.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta; it can possible stand without my > interpretation ;-) === My first pass at interpreting this Sutta is that neither "Existence" nor "Non-existence" are valid because they both imply a static state. The Sutta goes on to mention dependent origination to reinforce that everything is in flux. Thanks (and sleep well), Rob M :-) 16056 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Hi Rob M and Nina, Rob, I've been enjoying your conversation with Nina on this thread but I'm worried it may have come to an end. Please consider this a prompt to keep it going. Nina wrote: "Reflecting on the scriptures is certainly a helpful condition, but if we think, I should, there may be an element of wish, expectation or desire." I look forward to your comments on this. Assuming there is an element of wish, expectation or desire in your practice, do you consider it a particularly significant obstacle? Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 27-09-2002 23:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > >> N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, > > because you > >> know that it is a nama which thinks. 16057 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Hi Ken, One year ago, I would attend the Abhidhamma class each week, as I had for many years. I felt that my learning had reached a plateau. I wanted more. By volunteering to teach the beginners' class this year, I forced myself into a situation where I had to do research each week. Now, I feel that my understanding of the Dhamma is increasing rapidly. Part of the reason that I research as thoroughly as possible is that I don't want to look foolish in front of the class on Sunday morning. It is amazing what a bit of pride (mana) and fear (dosa) will do as a motivator. I knew that this was part of my character and it is part of the reason that I volunteered (i.e. I wanted to force myself to dig deeper into the Dhamma). As an interesting side effect, I also have to watch what I do more carefully as I now label myself "a Dhamma teacher". This is an example of leveraging akusala tendencies for kusala purposes. I know that I will have to pay the kammic price for my mana and dosa, but the kammic weight of learning and teaching the Dhamma will "outweigh" them. I am okay with akusala motivation for my class preparation. However, I view my meditation practice differently. I cannot deny that there is an element of wish, expectation and desire in my meditation practice. I feel that this is a barrier to progress. My "brain" tells me that my duty is just to sit and that the appropriate experiences will come to me when the conditions are right... it is useless to chase after them. While my "brain" is telling me this, my "heart" is still craving (some days more, some days less). In summary, akusala is not an obstacle to my teaching, but it is an obstacle to my meditation. I seriously want to improve my meditation practice. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M and Nina, > > Rob, I've been enjoying your conversation with Nina on > this thread but I'm worried it may have come to an end. > Please consider this a prompt to keep it going. > > Nina wrote: "Reflecting on the scriptures is certainly a > helpful condition, but if we think, I should, there may > be an element of wish, expectation or desire." > > I look forward to your comments on this. Assuming there > is an element of wish, expectation or desire in your > practice, do you consider it a particularly significant > obstacle? > > Kind regards > Ken H > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > op 27-09-2002 23:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > >> N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, > > > because you > > >> know that it is a nama which thinks. 16058 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Hi Rob M. As Larry commented, it was a very comprehensive and useful post. However, I know you don’t like life to be too easy, so I’ll just raise a couple of points (they may be questions) , particularly relating to sati and memory: --- robmoult wrote: > Here is the result of my reading the original texts: > > Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has > mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he > recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the > text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original > meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – > memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen > attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory > of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven > factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." ***** I’ve checked the sutta too. Just a few comments (but not answers): 1. The reference describes those ‘in higher training’, i.e those who have attained to stages of enlightenment. 2. Also it refers to those who have attained all 4 jhanas. 3. The commentary tells us this quote refers to the bhojjhangas (enlightenment factors). 4. In the section on bhojangas in the Satipatthana Sutta and com. there is no reference to recollection of the past. I wonder if this refers to insight being coupled with jhanas? 5. In the Atthasalini (trns p.195) there is also, however, a reference to “not forgetting a thing done or spoken long ago..”, but this may be a function of sati in jhanas rather than satipatthana in which case, as we know (well, some of us;-)), paramattha dhamma must be the object. 6. The Visuddhimagga (XX1,111f) discusses differences in enlightenment factors, jhana factors and so on depending on whether jhana is used as a basis for insight and so on. More detail in XX11, 38 on enlightenment factors. This is an intricate topic and one Nina touched on a few times in the anapanasati series a few times. I’m out of my depth without further study and consideration. Nina or others may have further comments on the reference you gave in the sutta. As I’ve said, I cannot see the connection between satipatthana and recalling the past. I was also going to ask a bit more about the last quote from the intro in the PTS A-S, but I think I’ll let that rest;-) Sarah ===== 16059 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, Just a quick note back to a couple of your questions: 1) L: “Thanks for bringing out these points about sati as cetasika. Is sati the faculty that discriminates between kusala and akusala?” ***** S: Sati is mindful or not forgetful of its object. So if the object is a kusala state or citta, it is mindful of the wholesome quality. If it is sati as in satipatthana, it is also aware of the characteristic of akusala to when it appears. The discriminating or knowing would be the function of panna, however. Sati is aware, panna understands or knows. 2) L: “Some more questions. If (?) we can say sati is recognition, then when I recognize someone in the street is that sati? Is it satipatthana? If I mistakenly recognize Jack as Jim, is that sati? If I mistakenly recognize vedana as rupa is that sati? Is truth a cetasika?” ***** S: Memory or recognition or awareness referring to sati have no resemblance to these terms in conventional language. Sati only arises with kusala cittas - those concerned with sila, dana or bhavana - for a start. Rcognizing or mistaking someone in the street is thinking and sanna and many other states. Any of these cittas, cetasikas or rupas involved can be the object of satipatthana however. If vedana is confused for rupa, there is moha (ignorance), not sati. What we mean by truth is usually a combination of different cittas and mental states. Sarah ===== 16060 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 1:52am Subject: Re: Informal Thoughts on Sati and Sa~n~na Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Howard (& Larry). I thought your informal reflections here were pretty good;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Informally, based just on the usage I've come across in written > discussions of meditation, I've always thought of 'sati' as designating > the > function of remembering to stay with the present moment of experience - > of > not becoming forgetful and "getting lost" in thought, reverie, or > torpor. It > seems to me that it is not attention per se, nor, is it, in this usage, > general memory per se, but is a remembering or keeping in mind to > maintain > attention. So, as I think of it, 'sati' as used in the Dhamma doesn't > mean > memory, per se, but it has a clear memory aspect/flavor to it. .... I would just refine it a little further to suggest ‘remembering to stay with the present moment of experience’ refers to being aware/mindful of namas and rupas appearing through the 6 doorways. ..... >Likewise, > to > me 'sa~n~na', with its meaning of recognition or cognition or > perception, > also does not mean memory, per se, but certainly has a clear > aspect/flavor of > memory to it. To recognize or (even wordlessly) identify something > surely > requires a mental trace of some sort, though not necessarily a memory in > the > usual sense. (I suspect that the *common* term 'memory', apparently not > explicated in Abhidhamma, designates an amalgam of mental operations, > and, in > the common usage of the term, denotes a type of very large and complex > mental > process involving long trains of thought and multiple functions.) ..... I like the way you put this;-) Sarah ==== 16061 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 2:13am Subject: Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) Hi Frank, Are you still there? You seemed to lose Dan, so let me pick up this one point as I think it’s important: --- Frank Kuan wrote: > Makes sense to me, but to add to the confusion, > there is the 5 type of feeling classification, which > lists physical feeling as 2 of the 5 types (pleasant > physical and painful physical). > Sticking my head in ice cold water is painful > sometimes (produces painful MENTAL feeling). Is it a > painful physical feeling? I don't think so. If I have > a bunch of mosquito bites, the very same cold water > feels (MENTALLY) pleasant. ..... Just to clarify, ALL feelings are namas (vedana khandha). Those referred to as ‘physical’ refer to feelings accompanying cittas experiencing their objects through the body-sense. It can be confusing, I know. So when you stick your head in ice cold water, there will be unpleasant bodily feeling (dukkha vedana) accompanying the citta of body sense consciousness (vipaka citta) which experiences the coldness (a rupa). This will usually be followed by unhappy mental feeling (another kind of vedana) accompanying cittas in the javana process. In your example with the mosquito bites, however, there may well be happy mental feeling accompanying cittas with lobha in the following mind door processes. Is this too technical? Snipping from an earlier post I wrote: “Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. When I read the messages about the weather I was reminded of a quote from the Atthasalini which Nina uses in 'Cetasikas'. She's writing about how dosa (and therefore domanassa too) arises 'on account of any object experienced through one of the six doors.' she continues: 'One may even be cross with the rain, the sun or the wind. We read in the Atthasalini (11, Book 11, Part 11, summary, Ch 11, 367): ..."Or when vexation (springs up) groundlessly" means anger without reason; for example, someone gets angry saying "it rains too much", "it does not rain", "the sun shines too much", "it does not shine"; gets angry when the wind blows, when it does not blow, gets angry at being unable to sweep away the Bodhi leaves, at being unable to put on his robe; he gets angry with the wind, in slipping he gets angry with a tree-stump..." “ ***** Likewise, one may be happy with anything including sticking one’s head in a bucket of ice-cold water. Must be all that Astanga training, Frank;-) Sarah ===== 16062 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] ok Sarah Hi Henry, We’ve already had a friendly chat off-list about the video chat in your post, so hopefully that’s resolved and history;-) Let me make a few comments on the head and tail of your post here which are of more relevance to DSG: --- vimmuti wrote: > First, my oldest daughters name is sarah so this feels like i found a > good place. ..... Actually, I should be signing off each time as Sarah A as we also have Sarah F on DSG. Hope your daughter joins us too one day. >Been doing vipasana for about 30 years, mentors are Ven > Piyananda, Mahasi Sayadaw, Satgayi U Ba Kin and currently Bhante > Gunaratana where i am an occasional driver at his center. Mrs. Ruth > Denison was my teacher... Do work for Wat Rangsee in Sterling Va. ..... Thanks for giving us this info. The names will all be ringing many bells here. My first Buddhist teacher was a student of Mahasi Sayadaw’s too. ..... > Was up in Vancouver about two weeks ago visiting the big temple in > Richmond B.C. when i thought to myself, "what if we threw everything > out except the practice, what would it look like as a daily video > broadcast on the web, hmmm. > So i built a little sit and chat channel on an ap called Paltalk and > it is going pretty good. .... Glad to hear it. We find on DSG that there are as many ideas of practice as there are members. What is your definition (in one paragraph preferably)? ..... > An introduction to Satipathana Meditation > Satipathana Meditation is also known as Insight Meditation, and > the aim is > to gain a better awareness of one's nature, whether physical, > mental, > or spiritual. One way to be more aware is by observing our > perceptions; .... We’ll be discussing the Satipatthana sutta and commentaries in detail. I understand the description and directions you give are the standard meditation instructions. I’m not sure if you are wishing to discuss these or just to inform us. ..... > now the way i was taught does not label sensation... even to hot, > cold, rough ect. and because i want to be absolutely precise and in > line with the dhamma and because i was taught to switch focus to the > nimita and when it habituates and stabilizes use it as a microscope, > i wondered what you thought....thanks, henry ..... Earlier you referred to satipatthana and insight meditation (I think). There are several definitions of nimitta which has a specific meaning when referring to objects of samatha. In the development of satipatthana, it refers to any object, any paramattha dhamma (absolute reality) as I understand. In other words, there is no need to ‘switch focus’ or focus at all in the development of satipatthana. When there is this kind of focus, is there any detachment from the nama or rupa already conditioned at this moment? Is there any idea of a self focussing or being aware? I’m not at all sure, we’re on the same wave-length, Henry. These are just my understandings, not those of the rest of DSG. I hope we can have some further discussion without too much of a rocky path;-) Sarah ===== 16063 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:10am Subject: Study with Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear Group, Those fortunate ones who live near the address below, may be interested in the chance to study the Majjhima Nikaya and attend a class in Pali taught by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Bodhi Monastery, 67 Lawrence Road, Lafayette, NJ 07848-3018 http://www.bodhimonastery.net/venbhikkhubodhi.htm "Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi will be leading a sutta study group starting Tuesday, January 7, 2003. We will be studying the Majjhima Nikaya (The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha). The class will run continuously on Tuesday evenings from 7:00-8:00pm. He will also conduct a class in Pali, the language of the early Buddhist canon. This course will begin on Saturday, January 4. It will run continuously on Saturday afternoons from 2:45pm-3:45pm for roughly 12 to 24 weeks. There are no fees for the classes, but you will need to purchase books. Please make your reservations for these classes by December 1, so that we can order the books at a discounted rate for you." metta, Christine 16064 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Good point Rob. I think I was getting tangled up in my thinking. Nothing like dsg-ers to straighten that out. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > > a crucially important matter don't you think? > > I am going to play devil's advocate here and take an opposing view. > > "Instantaneous rebirth" or "non-Instantaneous rebirth" does not > impact kamma, four noble truths, eightfold noble path, > paticcasamuppada or any of the "core" teachings of the Buddha. Why > make it an issue? > > Tissa was reborn as a flea for seven days because he was attached to > his robe. Following that, he was again reborn as a deva in Tusita > heaven. Unlike the deva planes (and higher), the four woeful planes > and the human plane have indefinite lifespans. Why can't we be born > in one of these planes for a short time and then be reborn into > another plane due to our reserve (katatta) kamma? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16065 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body/Howard Thanks Howard. I think I'll get 'The Selfless Mind' - you seem to think highly of it, and I value PH's 'Intro. to Buddhist Ethics'. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Chris - Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the > occultists. > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are > empty of essence, empty of self. > > With metta, > Howard 16066 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body/Jim Hi Jim, Thanks for your helpful comments on 'antaraabhava' and 'gandhabba'. I have had a look at the Gandhabbasamyutta - the devas of the gandhabba order are 'long-lived and beautiful, and abound in happiness.' dwelling in fragrant roots, heartwood, softwood, fragrant bark, shoots, leaves, flowers, fruits, sap, and scents" ... it actually reminds me of the works of an Australian writer and artist May Gibbs well known for her childrens' tales and illustrations of the Adventures of Snugglepot and Cuddlepie who were Gumnuts (woody seed pods of the Eucalyptus or Gum tree). I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...). metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs > > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't > > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping > > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - > > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? > > Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning > however small can be of help. I first came into contact with Buddhism > in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it > wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of > Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in > Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it was > time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues to > be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was one > of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here! > > > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in > > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day > > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the > > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - > > even in a multi-cultural area.:). > > I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had > seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied > (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who was > doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own with > the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way > has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as one > just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework > assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep > it alive, the rest will follow. > > > It is just frustrating to be in > > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves > are > > in error. > > This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check the > translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the > commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English. > > > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > > a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a > > Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or > a > > semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and > > others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the > > Scriptures and translations. > > The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of > existence and there are many references to this term in the > commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the > Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 > where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an > intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can > read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of > Kv. > > > In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse > > on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing > > the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). > > There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In > > the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the > > Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes > > place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of > the > > mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO > > BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of > an > > embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and > father, > > and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT > > PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a > > womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is > > the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH > > THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A > > WOMB TAKES PLACE." > > "THE BEING TO BE REBORN" is 'gandhabba' in Pali. I'm not at all clear > on this term as the commentary says that 'gantabba' is what is really > meant. Gandhabba is also a term used for a lower class of deities > sometimes referred to as celestial musicians (cupids?) who facilitate > conception. There is a chapter in SN called Gandhabbasa.myutta. More > research would be needed for me to say much more. > > Best wishes, > Jim 16067 From: Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: catukotika Hello Larry, I was going to respond to your original post questioning the entire enterprise by beginning: Ever sit down with your girlfriend and explain to her the importance of following and caring about the San Francisco Forty-niners? Which is why we have to stay home and watch the game and can't go to the Celtic Faire? But now I see you also understand what really matters ;-) metta, stephen 16068 From: Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >My first pass at interpreting this Sutta is that neither "Existence" >nor "Non-existence" are valid because they both imply a static >state. The Sutta goes on to mention dependent origination to >reinforce that everything is in flux. Me too. I don't want to alarm you but a quick reading of your post this morning gives me the impression that we may be in agreement! It occurred to me later that if we see it as 'mere reason' in the sense that it's good to use reason (don't be unreasonable) but it's not enough, then this also must apply to the other criteria. So they are also valid, so far as they go; they just don't go all the way. (I hope look up your post on freewill sometime this afternoon.) metta, stephen 16069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Seeking rebirth Dear Jim, This is very clear about a being who lays down this body. Amazing how tricky translations can be. It shows again how important Pali is, I am fascinated by these examples. Best wishes, Nina. 16070 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] illogical? - Nina in particular Dear Stephen, Sarah answered very well with quotes from the Brahmajala sutta. See below. op 02-10-2002 02:42 schreef oreznoone@a... op oreznoone@a...: > > An alternative point of view, on most everything N: that is O.K. We cannot all agree. > > And how can we learn what dukkha is? It is the arising and >> falling away of nama and rupa, each moment. > S: No, not really. It's the *attachment* to the rising a falling. Not the > khandha but the upadanakkhandas. N: The first noble Truth is dukkha, and the second one is the origination of dukkha :clinging. These two Truths are, as the Co, the Dispeller of Deluision said, profound, because hard to grasp. There are many levels of explaining the four noble Truths. In short (sa.nkhittena) the five khandhas [as objects] of clinging are dukkha. There is a great deal more to be said, but time is lacking. >> How can this be realized? By >> first knowing precisely what nama is, what rupa is: a reality to be >> experienced one at a time through one of the six doors, at this very moment. S: No, even if one could experience this, and even if this distinction is real, > it wouldn't make any real difference or provide insight. What's needed is > insight into one's clinging (through vipassana, one supposes); there's > nothing wrong with namarupa in itself. Such knowledge (of sense-data), if > any, would miss the picture. N: Insight is developed in stages. Only when nama is clearly distinguished from rupa they can be known as conditioned dhammas and later on their arising and falling away can be realized.Thus, they are , insignificant dhammas: arising just for a moment and then gone for ever, no matter how pleasant or unpleasant, how wholesome or unwholesome. Not only clinging should be known but all kinds of dhammas appearing one at a time through the six doors. In the course of insight the three characteristics are understood more clearly and also, consequently, there will be more detachment from nama and rupa. But this process develops very gradually because our clinging is deeply rooted. > >> Kom and Larry's dialogue is most important and essential, as Sarah said. >> What is a concept, what is a reality. A concept is that which makes known, >> thus, a name, or the idea that is made known. > S. Yes, exactly: that which makes known. Without a concept nothing is known; all > seeing is seeing-as. All perception is theory laden. Everything is 'merely' > conceptualized. (Now if you're going to tell me that nama-pannatti is that > which makes known and I'm misusing the definition..., but I'm doing so on > purpose.) N: Seeing experiences visible object, no concept is needed. Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta, also seeing. It is not necessarily perception of theory. I do not know your purpose here, about misusing something. >> We should not confuse >> concepts with thinking. Thinking itself is real and it can think of what >> is real or what is not real but what is a concept. S: This is an odd use of the word "thinking." I think in words all the time. N: Not always in words. Babies cognize concepts, but no language yet. S: Well, you gave it a good shot. What can one do about those obdurate types? N: No, not obdurate. It is understandable that many points are not clear yet. Also language can be confusing. As Jim pointed out, how tricky translations can be. All the best with your study, Nina. 16071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 6, Intro cont, questions Dear all, op 02-10-2002 01:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, > consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one > reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing > slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of > contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper > understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to > know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made > more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and > are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In > these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and > error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and > sustained effort. N: Indeed we are a mixture, and how could we choose. I do not see these four objects as objects one should select as an object of concentration. Now feeling appears, next moment citta is object of understanding, then rupa, then cetasika. No specific order, and we can verify this ourselves now. Who could select, no time. Ven. Soma sees the four Applications as preliminary objects of concentration. That is a different view. We shall have to check the text of Sutta and Co. It seems that he sees them as objects of samatha which have to be developed until jhana is attained, so that afterwards there can be insight based on jhana. But how about the sukkha vipassakas, those with dry insight? Nina. 16073 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Rob M (and the ‘laying down the body’ corner;-)), You'll see I start with your questions and can't resist getting side-tracked into the other discussion. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and > heart base? > > I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada, > patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the > patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / > femininity and heart base. > > Comments? ..... I’m not sure that we can talk about ‘proximate cause’ fo rupas. Usually this term is used for mental factors. From the Atthasalini: “Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc , their mutual difference should be understood in this wise.” (p.84 in transl). Also I don’t understand what you mean when you say “patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base.” Masculinity, femininity and heart-base are 3 subtle rupas produced by kamma from the first moment of life (patisandhi citta). So it is entirely as a result of kamma what the sex is and also, as long as patisandhi citta arises in the sensuous plane or any other plane with nama and rupa, there must be heart- base from the beginning. All cittas other than the 5 sense experiencing cittas depend on it. Cittas arise continually according to conditions. We have a conventional idea about new birth, but actually it’s only the continuation of namas and rupas according to kamma and other causes. In planes with 5 khandhas, there cannot be nama without rupa and so these rupas must be conditioned to arise at rebirth by several conditions including kamma and also conascence condition (sahajata paccaya) whereby the patisandhi citta and heart-base rupa condition each other.The patisandhi citta is also conascence condition for the other groups of rupa (including the sex faculty) produced by kamma. As you know, the kamma and other conditions bringing about vipaka citta are very complex. By proximity condition (anantara paccaya), cittas have to succeed each other ‘without interval’ (leaving aside special cases of ‘suspension’ of citta in arupa jhana and asanna satta planes). Thus the last citta of life must be succeeded immediately by the first citta of the new life. If there is the understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas (no people or places), then it’s easier to understand different kinds of vipaka and conditions and so on. There are 4 different kinds of birth by womb, eggs, moisture and spontaneous. Nina gives more details in ‘Abhidhamma’ ch 10 and 11. She points out there that we cannot know when life ends or starts exactly as we don’t know others’ cittas. Similarly we can never know what kamma will produce the next patisandhi citta. It may be from a previous life. Though “the present life is different from the past life but there is continuity in so far as the present life is conditioned by the past. Since the patisandhi citta succeeds the cuti citta of the previous life the accumulated tendencies of past life go on to the patisandhi citta. Thus, inclinations one has in the present life are conditioned by the past.” ***** I just followed Jim’s very helpful comments and reference below in the Kathavatthu and commentary: “The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of existence and there are many references to this term in the commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2 where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of Kv. “ As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless aceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).” Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and conditioning rupas. Sarah ===== 16074 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 1:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Hi Rob M, Thanks for your reply, I can't get too much of this type of discussion. You wrote: ----------- > By volunteering to teach the beginners' class this year, I forced myself into a situation where I had to do research each week. > -------------- In my humble opinion, the best thing to teach a beginner is that the Middle Way is absolutely different from the two extremes. We were talking about music lessons before; the reality the Buddha taught is absolutely different from music. A music student doesn't need to know there is no musician who plays or that there is no instrument or music that is played. If we believe that the Buddha, like a music teacher, prescribed forms of practice that it is our duty to follow, then we must have a perception of a self who can follow. By listening, studying or meditating with that belief, we will (as I understand it), accumulate conditions for more wrong understanding. ----------- > . . . I cannot deny that there is an element of wish, expectation and desire in my meditation practice. I feel that this is a barrier to progress. My "brain" tells me that my duty is just to sit and that the appropriate experiences will come to me when the conditions are right... it is useless to chase after them. > ------------- Continuing from the other day with my fault-finding, (sorry about this), I question the need for meditation experiences. Aren't they a pretence at higher knowledge? We are ignorant worldlings; a worldling is what the Buddha described, in effect, as this present moment. The namas and rupas of the present moment, ignoble though they may be, are all we need to understand. -------------------- > . . . I seriously want to improve my meditation practice. > -------------------- I remember that you practise meditation with a view to obtaining a `mindfulness perspective,' but I forget whether you are of the opinion that meditation forms a part of the Buddha's teaching. Many dsg people, most recently Jon and Robert Ep, have had long-running discussions on this topic. Have you read them yet? What is your opinion? Kind regards Ken H 16075 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't feel the need for a purity of Buddhist view, Jon. In any case, when I read the Kalakarama Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta I see a phenomenalist understanding expressed. That is how I understand the Dhamma. Many others do as well. Many do not. It is certainly not encumbant on anyone to see it that way - nor is it verboten. ------------------------------------------------------ Agreed absolutely, Howard (nothing is verboten). Actually, I did read these 2 suttas at the time you posted them previously, but was unable to see what exactly was the 'phenomenalist understanding' being expressed. If you feel like explaining the connection in more detail, I'd be interested to hear. The other thing I'd be interested to know is the significance that this issue apparently has to those who espouse this view of things. What are the implications for the development of samatha/vipassana, as you/they would see it? Thanks. Jon PS I also agree that the aim is not 'a purity of Buddhist view'. The aim is simply purity of view, i.e., seeing things as they truly are. Hence the danger of any holding to views that are other than in accordance with things as they truly are (a tendency we all have heaps of, imo). 16076 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine and Jon, > > Formal meditation isn't a new development but I read somewhere that the > "Burmese Satipatthana Method" is new, developed early last century, I > think. I believe this is characterized by "noting" whatever arises. As > you know, Mahasi Sayadaw spread it far and wide. I had a Tibetan teacher > and he found this to be compatible with, but slightly different from, > his own tradition. Also, I'm sure he modified his own traditional method > for western students. > > Larry There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of evaluating a 'practice', can you? Jon 16077 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... << In the following you write: "However (and I'm not sure if this is something you are alluding to in your post), nothing in the foregoing necessarily suggests a formal aspect to the occasion on which these mental states may arise, as I would see it." The answer is that, no, this post of mine didn't pertain to the formal vs informal issue at all, but rather pointed to aspects of vipassana bhavana that involve "thinking about" (which includes concept processing). >> Then I missed your point. My apologies. I think we'll come to this topic in Larry's 'Way' series in due course. << As far as the formal vs. informal issue is concerned (a separate issue), I see the Buddha as teaching both, ...>> Interesting. If both formal and informal are taught, how do they differ, as you understand it, in application and effect (i.e., apart from the formality/informality of the occasion)? Jon 16078 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow motion Rob M Just a couple of comments on part of your post to Ken H. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Ken, ... > Let me first clarify my point; I view mindfulness as a perspective, > not a skill. My sons' perspective on music is inborn, but a little > bit of training helps give them the "vocabulary" to articulate and > discriminate what they hear. Even if they stopped practicing now and > did not practice for fifty years, they would still have the musical > perspective (though their skills would be virtually gone). As a keen student of the Abhidhamma, you will know that mindfulness is the mental factor sati, and that it accumulates in the same way as any other tendency good or bad. In the case of metta, for example, would you describe it as a 'perspective', a 'skill', or something else again? > There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees > the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his > perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half > empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does > not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" > and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible > object". If a person no longer saw "glass", "water" or "half full/empty", he would not be able to function in the world. I would suggest that this sort of conceptualising is as necessary for the enlightened being as it is for the unenlightened. To my reading of the texts, mindfulness means that the different phenomena are not taken for being other than they are, but not that one stops conceptualising about phenomena. It's easy to overlook the fact that the conceptualising is itself a kind of dhamma, namely, the dhamma that is consciousness, even though the concepts that are the object of that dhamma are not. > I beleive that to learn a mindfulness > perspective, I have to practice meditation until it becomes natural. > I am hoping that once I have achived that level, that I will be able > to "turn mindfulness on" and "turn mindfulness off" as required (if > I am only ever aware of the present moment, I will certainly miss my > flight tomorrow). Missing a flight because of too much mindfulness -- are there any parallels in the texts? And are you sure that that kind of mindfulness is what you want (and what implications would it have for one's marriage, I wonder?!)? Jon 16079 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Antony --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear List, > > I've noticed that my metta practice is limited and my mind doesn't > really relate to the mass of humanity (I just looked at the prayer > circle directory at BeliefNet.com - it is huge!). > > I understand that I can only relate in speech and actions with a few > people but the mind is very fast and I think there is a possibility > of cultivating metta creatively to many beings in different > categories. > > I've read that mudita (appreciative joy) is an antidote for boredom > so I'm particularly looking for ways of healing the internal split > between "me" and "other people" so that the mind is alive and > interested. > > Please share your experiences and insights with opening the mind in > this way. > > Thanks / Antony. I'm not sure that my mind qualifies as being 'alive and interested' ;-)). However, I'll still offer my comments. My own perspective would be that the 'internal split between "me" and "other people"' that you refer to, and that is familiar to us all, is a function of ignorance and wrong view rather than lack of sufficient metta or mudita. In other words, it will be with us as long as there is a lack of developed understanding of the true nature of the present moment. Even for those who reach the highest levels of metta and karuna, the 'internal split' is merely suppressed rather than eradicated, as long as insight has not been developed. Jon 16080 From: vimmuti Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 6:31am Subject: the sign as parikamma nimitta and other things when i do meditation at retreat or afterwards for a while at home and while the kilesas are suppressed there is an actual strong physical result in my concentration as a felt area. And much more attenuated it pops up in each days sits. to me it is tingley sort of round has color (don't know if color is the right word). Within it is the world of change going on in the body. Now as you know i am trying to interest people in trying out sitting without any preload of dhamma, just as something nice and beneficial in itself. So, and you have to remember my med instructions, if someone was to say what is a goal, i would say (and i am a total non goal person believe you me) well if you could get to the point where the parikamma nimitta appears thru habit and stabilizes so you can use it as a microscope to look at incoming pure sensation in a very new way that would show you how conditioned and closed our normal perceptions are.. Lrdi Sayadaw a very wise man who lived in Burma a long time ago says, "The practice of samatha until the appearance of parikamma nimitta, and the practice of vipasana until insight is obtained, even once, are both mature seeds filled with pith and substance". So my question to Sarah and anyone really, as i am a not a dhamma student is: is the thing i am going to tell people is a worthwhile goal the same as the *sign* found in The Path of Liberation- Upatissa the Elder's book? .....quietmind 16081 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/4/02 3:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. > Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous > succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or > coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and > conditioning rupas. > ============================= I agree with your last two sentences. My point was that conventional existence in alleged intermediate realms is no more a matter of atta than is conventional existence in a standard realm such as the human realm. As I wrote: Even right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are empty of essence, empty of self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16082 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/4/02 7:23:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > << In the following you write: "However (and I'm not sure if this is > something you are alluding to in your post), nothing in the foregoing > necessarily suggests a formal aspect to the occasion on which these mental > states may arise, as I would see it." > The answer is that, no, this post of mine didn't pertain to the > formal vs informal issue at all, but rather pointed to aspects of > vipassana bhavana that involve "thinking about" (which includes concept > processing). >> > > Then I missed your point. My apologies. I think we'll come to this topic > in Larry's 'Way' series in due course. > > << As far as the formal vs. informal issue is concerned (a separate > issue), I see the Buddha as teaching both, ...>> > > Interesting. If both formal and informal are taught, how do they differ, > as you understand it, in application and effect (i.e., apart from the > formality/informality of the occasion)? > > Jon > > =========================== The informality/formality of the occasion is, of course, not the point. By formal meditation I mean the case of one restricting the variety of sensory inputs by a combination of external actions (e.g., seeking a quiet place or closing one's eyes) and the internal actions of restricting one's attention (concentrating on selected stimuli) and initially calming and concentrating the mind by attending to a single phenomenon (conventional, such as the breath) for a period of time. By informal meditation I mean attending to whatever arises without such restrictive procedures, during ordinary activities. I see advantages and disadvantages to each. I think the main disadvantage to formal meditation is that the hindrances of sloth and torpor more easily arise in that context, and the advantage is more ease in the development of strong concentration and microscopic attention. I think the disadvantage of informal meditation is that the hindrance of distraction more easily arises in that context and that concentration less easily develops, and the advantage is more ease in maintaining a bright mind (avoiding sloth and torpor) and having a wider range of phenomena open to one's perusal. Jon, with regard to your previous post on the Kalakarama Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta, I will have to get back to you about them another time. But if you are interested, I would strongly recommend Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's book The Magic of the Mind. He expresses the matter far better than I could. You can find it on amazon.com by doing a search on "Nanananda". (The url is a bit ungainly to forward) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16083 From: Frank Kuan Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) Hi Sarah, thanks for the explanation. I've been busy but also consciously cutting down on my internet time. Trying to restrict my internet (ab)usage to 1hour max per day. --- Sarah wrote: . > ..... > Just to clarify, ALL feelings are namas (vedana > khandha). Ok, this makes sense to me, but ... > Those referred > to as ‘physical’ refer to feelings accompanying > cittas experiencing their > objects through the body-sense. It can be confusing, > I know. > > So when you stick your head in ice cold water, there > will be unpleasant > bodily feeling (dukkha vedana) accompanying the > citta of body sense > consciousness (vipaka citta) which experiences the > coldness (a rupa). So again, if feelings are ONLY namas (mental aggregates), then: 1) calling unpleasant bodily feeling sure seems like a misnomer and adds more confusion. 2) I have a really hard time believing that these unpleasant bodily feelings are a function of kamma vipaka. In this very moment, I can experience coldness (rupa) + bodily consciousness of that rupa coldness, and whether I feel that pleasant or unpleasant (mental) feeling is dependent on conditions, but pretty kammically neutral conditions most of the time as I see it. You could argue that what I perceive as unpleasant physical feeling is already the mental feelings that follow the intial coldness(rupa)+bodily consciousness+unpleasant physical feeling, but how can we verify? 3) It seems like the abidhamma is trying to break things down into a completely logical and atomic moment by moment analysis, and it doesn't seem right to me. In other words, I think you get yourself into trouble by trying to find a unified theory that explains reality through concepts, whereas the sutta usages of things like kusala, akusala, are somewhat fuzzier things that can't be broken down into perfectly clean and dilineated atomic units. It's hard to put into words what I mean, but what it comes down to is it's more important that I decrease the (unnecessary) mental unpleasant feeling that follows unpleasnat physical experiences (through lots of daily meditation practice :) , and not worry too much whether there is a perfect theory that explains blow by blow what's happening each mind moment. -fk 16084 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Dear Rob M and Ken, Good idea Ken, to contunue Dhamma conversations. You have a reputation of being able to keep Dhamma conversations going. I wish you would be in Bgk end November. For some reactions, see below. op 03-10-2002 09:11 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > This is an example of leveraging akusala tendencies for kusala > purposes. I know that I will have to pay the kammic price for my > mana and dosa, but the kammic weight of learning and teaching the > Dhamma will "outweigh" them. > I am okay with akusala motivation for my class preparation. N: this is a good example how akusala can condition kusala, it can also happen that kusala conditions akusala. All this is natural strong dependence condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. Whatever kusala we are performing, akusala cittas are bound to arise in between. But it is good to realize this. Without the Dhamma we would never have known. And this is Buddhanusati. R: However, > I view my meditation practice differently. I cannot deny that there > is an element of wish, expectation and desire in my meditation > practice. I feel that this is a barrier to progress. My "brain" > tells me that my duty is just to sit and that the appropriate > experiences will come to me when the conditions are right... it is > useless to chase after them. While my "brain" is telling me this, > my "heart" is still craving (some days more, some days less). >> In summary, akusala is not an obstacle to my teaching, but it is an > obstacle to my meditation. N: You may be inclined to samatha and samatha is kusala. It is helpful to know the many possibilities of samatha. Apart from mindfulness of breathing, there are many other subjects, like the Recollections, or mindfulness of death. See the Visuddhimagga, which makes very good reading. Can meditation also be: reading and then pondering over it? There does not necessarily have to be reciting or counting. When you are occupied with a meditation subject there is perhaps no need to think of progress all the time. But this is such a personal area, each person should see for himself what is beneficial. > R: I seriously want to improve my meditation practice. N: No who can improve anything. If one thinks of improving it could well be, as Herman (I miss him) said, that the self is the subject one concentrates on. Improvement or progress is progress in something. It is good to make clear to ourselves in what and whereto we wish to improve. The appropriate conditions will lead to the result which is in accordance with those conditions. Merely *thinking* of wanting to improve will not lead to anything. Best wishes, Nina. 16085 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] studying Pali, to Chris. Dear Christine, I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to get around fast. On the first p. I write the letters in the Pali alphabetical order and then the page no. behind, for quick reference. Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets you read already at about Ch 18, makes it interesting. Success, Nina. op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I > experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...). > 16086 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:16am Subject: Re: the sign as parikamma nimitta and other things --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "vimmuti" wrote: > > Lrdi Sayadaw a very wise man who lived in Burma a long time ago > says, "The practice of samatha until the appearance of parikamma > nimitta, and the practice of vipasana until insight is obtained, > even once, are both mature seeds filled with pith and substance". > So my question to Sarah and anyone really, as i am a not a dhamma > student is: is the thing i am going to tell people is a worthwhile > goal the same as the *sign* found in The Path of Liberation- > Upatissa the Elder's book? .....quietmind ___ Dear friend, As Ledi sayadaw says samatha and vipassana are certainly worthwhile- but there are wrong paths and counterfeit versions of these that we can be fooled by. The book you mention above is the Vimuttimagga( or path of freedom) I think. This is not a text that was passed on by the Theravada tradition and was possibly used by the Abhayagiri sect in Sri lanka (who often disputed with the orthodox Mahavihara). Whether there are any differences between what this book says and the texts of the Theravada would need careful investigation. Robert 16087 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Howard, Christine, > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the > occultists. > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are > empty of essence, empty of self. > I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to interpret that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states, and different realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary, continuing beings, as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to decompose "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that is so small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring "beings" to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna, the thing that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and subtracts continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism says no, I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you will get zero, emptiness. WL 16088 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, WL - In a message dated 10/4/02 1:29:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uanchihliu@h... writes: > > Hi Howard, Christine, > > > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept > intermediate > > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however, > > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider > such > > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I > > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like > the > > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of > the > > occultists. > > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. > Even > > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", > there > > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we > are > > empty of essence, empty of self. > > > I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from > Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to > interpret > that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states, > and different > realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary, > continuing beings, > as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to > decompose > "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that > is so > small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring > "beings" > to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna, > the thing > that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and > subtracts > continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism > says > no, > I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you > will > get zero, > emptiness. > > WL > > =============================== It's not just that. First of all, there is just a sequence of events, not "things". Secondly, when you write <> I think you miss the mark slightly. There are not ever-changing elements. Impermanence doesn't mean that "things change". It means that things don't remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by earlier ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling on. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16089 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] catukotika Hi Rob, Stephen, & all, I don't think catukotika has anything to say about how logic works, but I thought it looked like a profound practice. I'm not at all sure that I have interpreted it correctly, taking "relation" for "possession". I thought this would stir up some controversy. If "relation" is acceptable then the practice amounts to disowning all relatives, children, spouse, friends, enemies, associates, and allegiances. Also there might be something interesting to infer about conditional relations if we understand the practice to deny relatedness in general. An interesting distinction occurs between emptiness and nothingness. Emptiness is always contained by cyclical process (paticcasamuppada), while nothingness is the non-existence of infinite consciousness, or at least it is evoked as such. No container, I think(?). Anyway, here's the passage in case you didn't look it up: "Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the third practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn106.html And here's how I understood it: 1. There is no self in these khandhas. 2. There is nothing that could be considered anyone's son, brother, friend etc. in these khandhas. 3. There is no self in those khandhas. 4. There is nothing that could be considered my parent, brother, sister, friend, etc. in those khandhas. Larry 16090 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, You wrote: "There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of evaluating a 'practice', can you?" L: No, I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works. There are many "skillful means" that are helpful to different people at different times, in different circumstances. The "Kun Sujin Effortless Listening Method" of satipatthana for example. Larry 16091 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the sign as parikamma nimitta and other things Hi Henry, I don't have the slightest idea what is the correct answer to your question, but in my opinion the best way to practice jhana is to look for attachment and let it go. This includes any physical or mental sensations. The object of jhana is a concept but even a rupa on the level of mundane samatha is just a reference point to prevent wandering mind. No significance to it in itself. My very inexperienced opinion only. Larry 16092 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Howard: "Impermanence doesn't mean that "things change". It means that things don't remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by earlier ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling on." L: Nice one Howard. Well said. Larry 16093 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:44pm Subject: Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi All, Sorry for not participating lately, I am really busy preparing for this week's class on Rupa. I have been summarizing Nina's book, "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". Excellent reading... highly recommended. I note that the Visuddhimagga (XV, 39) states about the conditions for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye-sensitivity, visible object, light and attention". Eye-consciousness is a citta and attention is a cetasika; both are nama. Eye-sensitivity and visible objects are rupa; they are clearly on the list of 28. But what about light? It is clearly not nama, but I can't find it on the list of 28 rupas. Light has all of the four Great Essentials; it has earth element (it is affected by gravity), it has water element (cohesion), it has fire element (it carries energy, can create temperature) and it has the air element (it moves). I notice that "sound" made it to the list of rupas, so why not "light"? Does anybody have any ideas? I have my class tomorrow morning, so I need an answer today if possible. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16094 From: Paul Ajahn Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] studying Pali, to Chris. try this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html --- Nina van Gorkom ªº¶l¥ó¤º®e¡G> Dear Christine, > > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to > get around fast. On the > first p. I write the letters in the Pali > alphabetical order and then the > page no. behind, for quick reference. > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets > you read already at about > Ch 18, makes it interesting. > Success, > Nina. > op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op > cforsyth@v...: > > > > > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys > David's and > > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give > it a try and work > > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to > those by Horner. I > > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I > think languages > > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to > admit this, but I > > experience difficulty finding my way around the > P-E Dictionary ...). > > 16095 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, This is an interesting remark. "I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works." It was a trigger for a lot of reflection for me.... I don't think one can excise the necessity for samma-ditthi out of any part of Buddhist practice. You say, "Whatever works." Works for what? How do you know its 'working'? I first thought of practicing "meditation" for peace of mind. Before I found a group, I found a tape by a psychologist. Not a mention of Buddhism or of anything further. I was zoned out and relaxed, good tempered, calm... i.e. it "worked" in producing that feeling. (I became a little addicted to the peace and calm). Then I found it important to know what it was I was practicing for. Finding happiness, peace or calmness? But what exactly is true happiness, true peace or true calmness? How do you find it? Is it ending suffering? But what exactly is suffering? And who explained it and told of how to eradicate it? I spent many years looking for the first three and trying to get rid of the last one. Made no difference whatsoever, except ultimately decreasing happiness and increasing suffering. Today, I would still get confused, except for the Teachings in the texts. Don't you think it important not to confuse the 'means' with the 'aim'? For me nowadays, I need a Teacher who can answer my questions, and tell me how to have understanding of what suffering is, its cessation, and the path leading to this cessation myself. In the absence of that Teacher, I rely on Admirable Friends and the instructional lessons the Teacher left behind to describe how to travel, the landmarks to look out for on the Way, and the dangers, mistakes and scenic sidetracks to avoid. I don't think sammaditthi can be set aside while we take a special 'time-out' for a practice. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi say, in The Discourse on Right View - The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary: http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/sammaditthi.html "As its title suggests, the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path ('pubbangama'), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You wrote: > > "There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of > 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same > question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, > whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of > evaluating a 'practice', can you?" > > L: No, I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works. > There are many "skillful means" that are helpful to different people at > different times, in different circumstances. The "Kun Sujin Effortless > Listening Method" of satipatthana for example. > > Larry 16096 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] studying Pali, to Chris. Thanks Paul, looks like it could be useful. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Paul Ajahn wrote: > try this > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html > > --- Nina van Gorkom ªº¶l¥ó¤º®e¡G> > Dear Christine, > > > > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to > > get around fast. On the > > first p. I write the letters in the Pali > > alphabetical order and then the > > page no. behind, for quick reference. > > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets > > you read already at about > > Ch 18, makes it interesting. > > Success, > > Nina. 16097 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob M, I hope I'm not the only one up and about to try to help you. If so, you're done for.... :):) The totality of my input can only be - There are four paramatha dhammas (nama [citta and cetasika], rupa, and nibbana.) There are two kinds of reality - mental phenomena (nama) which experiences something; physical phenomena (rupa) which does not experience anything. As Light does not experience anything, I'd say it has to be rupa. But, as you know, I'm back here in the abhidhamma kindergarten corner... Maybe someone else will wander by... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > Sorry for not participating lately, I am really busy preparing for > this week's class on Rupa. I have been summarizing Nina's book, "The > Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". Excellent reading... > highly recommended. > > I note that the Visuddhimagga (XV, 39) states about the conditions > for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye-sensitivity, > visible object, light and attention". > > Eye-consciousness is a citta and attention is a cetasika; both are > nama. Eye-sensitivity and visible objects are rupa; they are clearly > on the list of 28. > > But what about light? It is clearly not nama, but I can't find it on > the list of 28 rupas. > > Light has all of the four Great Essentials; it has earth element (it > is affected by gravity), it has water element (cohesion), it has > fire element (it carries energy, can create temperature) and it has > the air element (it moves). > > I notice that "sound" made it to the list of rupas, so why > not "light"? > > Does anybody have any ideas? > > I have my class tomorrow morning, so I need an answer today if > possible. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16098 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Christine, I guess I should have said whatever works in impementing the 8-foldpath. The reason samma-ditthi is different from a practice is that it isn't relative to a particular individual"s understanding, though its explanation could be. Hmm, this is getting confusing. Larry 16099 From: Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob, The list in CMA gives "visible form" as one of the Objective Phenomena under Concretely Produced Matter. IMO visible form = light. I think you might be equating visible form with tangibility. Consider a movie or the screen you are looking at. It's visible form, light. Unknown what a photon is. I suspect it is visible form. Do we have some kind of a machine that can see individual photons? Larry 16100 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 8:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Larry, That was my first guess as well. Here is my concern: 1. We have a tree leaf 2. Some photons come along and hit the tree leaf 3. All but the "green photons" are absorbed by the tree leaf, the green photons are reflected 4. Some of the reflected green photons impinge upon the eye- sensitivity (the story from here is the thought process) My concern was that if we equate "visible form" with the photons, what about the tree leaf? Is it out of the picture? I guess you are right; the tree leaf is already out of the picture. So the correct perspective when I am seeing is, "There are some coloured photons hitting my eye. Yes, those photons were conditioned by something elese (a tree leaf), but all that I am seeing is coloured photons.". Compare two situations: A. I am looking at a "real tree leaf" B. I am looking at a good photo of a "real tree leaf" In both cases, the same quality of photons are impinging on my eye and so, at that moment, there is no difference between the two situations. Of course at the next instant, when I look at the surroundings, I can figure out the difference between the two situations. I guess it is a lot easier to accept that there is "nothing behind visible objects other than empty photons" than it is to accept "there is nothing behind me other than empty processes" (i.e. anatta). Alright, I will work with this approach tomorrow, unless somebody else wants to improve on it. Sorry for jumping on-line without properly thinking through the issue. I probably could have figured this out by myself (but then again, why not share some of the fun!). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > The list in CMA gives "visible form" as one of the Objective Phenomena > under Concretely Produced Matter. IMO visible form = light. I think you > might be equating visible form with tangibility. Consider a movie or the > screen you are looking at. It's visible form, light. Unknown what a > photon is. I suspect it is visible form. Do we have some kind of a > machine that can see individual photons? > > Larry 16101 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:18pm Subject: Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hello DSG'ers, Been a busy week here in Cambodia. Regarding Herman's query before about children, which I'd meant to reply to long ago, a few thoughts. Sarah & Jon & I talked about the various conditions and so on for living the lay life vs. the monastic life, and if children are a hindrance or not to the practice of the path, that the kamma for a child to be born depends on so many conditions it's impossible to know them all. This has been a big item of reflection the past few days for me, since we have formally gone through the adoption process for my wife's nephew (4 years old) to get him to a place he's not in danger of dying (he's been sick enough he's been to the hospital a lot near death in the past few months). So in addition to my wife being pregnant now, we have a new four- year old son. How this happened is strange. We came to Cambodia to apply for our 1 year Thai "B" visas and were given such a runaround by the embassy there, asking for documents the Thai government doesn't even require anymore according to my lawyer (we submitted the same paperwork for the "B" visas in Singapore without a hitch), and were treated very brusquely there to the point we couldn't get our "B" visas granted, and wound up having to (barely) get tourist visas just to return, blowing the entire 6 month process of creating a company, putting in investment capital, doing the bureacratic dance, and going "by the book" at great financial expense, all to stay totally within the bounds of all the laws and regulations to avoid this type of problem. What a difficult thing this has been--feeling like every door is slammed in our faces. We nearly lost everything we still have in Thailand due to the threat of not getting visas, and I have to refile and go through a process I don't know how to get straight at this point, since the rules seem to keep changing right under our feet (the exact same paperwork got 1-year visas in Penang or a friend just this week, ironically). After all of this, I was so frustrated with being given a seemingly impossible, endless runaround, being asked for documents that don't exist anymore and I have no way of obtaining, to satisfy a bureaucrat's request who seemed to treat us with downright scorn, even though we tried to be polite as possible attempting to explain our situation. Few things are the condition for dosa for me than bureacrats who care more about a piece of paper than real, living human beings who're just trying to live their lives in peace and maybe even a litle bit of good in this world. Truly feeling like "no good deed goes unpunished." Given all the uncertainty of whether we'd even be able to return to Thailand (thus costing us everything in terms of possessions, including probably my job, since my computer's there--a job which is still amazingly hanging in the balance of life or death as it has for the past 1 1/2 years now-I am at the point of just wishing to see it die already or maybe just plain quit due to the constant wondering if the next paycheck is the last, etc.). Given the situation, we made the decision to go to Angkor so my wife could meet her birth mother, who she hasn't seen in 13 years. What should have taken two days has now stretched out to two weeks, and then some. Also, given the visa company we used to get the US visas screwed up, costing us months in lost time now--time lost because of their mistakes to where even if we did get an immigrant visa to the US, we had to file for legal marriage under Cambodian law now given everything's changed, thus terminating a nearly year-long process and forcing a total restart. This was capped off by an extremely nasty email from the owner of the visa service, after I asked why they had not requested the appropriate documents in the first place, causing us to lose all this time due to their mistakes in not filing the appropriate papers. Amazingly, while we were here in signing the marriage documents, "kaboom", my sister-in-law came with her son--totally unexpectedly--and we signed the adoption papers for my wife's nephew (which we'd considered for a long time pending sufficient money, which we have, barely). It wasn't even a decision; it was literally dropped in our laps, and there was no choice in the matter. It's all just happened so fast, we've been running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to get all the appropriate paperwork straight. Things got so intense, to the point of such intense frustration at feeling no matter what I do, I seem to keep getting the shaft, that the moment we need help, everyone vanishes into the ether--my father, mother, everyone. I got to the point of great dosa at this long-standing issue of feeling burned emotionally so many times, that just to concentrate the object of dosa in one place, all I could do was to burn holes in my arm with my lit cigarette just to experience a more concrete version of the intense burning of dosa arising in the mind due to what seemed like life falling apart in every which way, with no ability to control or influence anything, feeling in a position of total powerlessness to do anything at all to influence of resolve the endless stream of problems and obstacles that keep arising at every turn. But, as the Chinese fable goes (Sarah knows it) what may seem "bad" from one perspective may actually be a blessing in disguise (or vice versa), and to be able to take care of our newly-adopted son is a wonderful thing and could not have happened without the seemingly hostile treatment we received at the Thai embassy in Phnom Penh (all for lack of one piece of paper we can never obtain, ever). Has this been an opportunity for practice? Definitely. The only thing that has let me retain any sanity is the knowledge that these are mental projections arising in dependence on kamma, and to just try to let go and let go of wishing for anything at all, to not get upset when I don't get what I want (one of the Eight Worldly Concerns), to just let it ride, to recall again and again that this too is merely appearances. But goddammit the dukkha has been intense: feeling like the rug is constantly being yanked out from underneath, that every plan is thwarted, unexpectedly foiled in the most bizarre ways, obstacles appearing out of nowhere to throw everything into total chaos, and the most dificult, having to make hugely life-altering life/death-level decisions at a moment's notice without any (or barely any) information at all, having no idea what will happen in the next moment, unable to make any sort of plan. It was only my wife's repeated and sage pointing out to me that I'd been /wishing/ for wholesome results to come from some merit someplace to help, and to let go of all expectations because that was the source of my dukkha. That got me to stop burning my arm with my lit cigarette, at least, and reconsider everything from a different perspective--that our kamma brought us here to save her nephew's life. Also attempting as best as possible to recollect there is no control over vipaka, while burning through all of our money to help take care of my wife's family with a new motorbike for her sister to ease her heavy work burden, getting "new eyes" (glasses) for her uncle, who hasn't seen in years, and in general trying to help get her family sorted out as much as possible. I just sit here and regret, intensely, the three years I feel I've wasted on failing to formally practice mindfulness and concentration well enough to maintain equipoise throughout all of this, and resolve to set an example for our new son when we get home (however temporary or contingent that home may be given our uncertain Thai visa status now and the seemingly endless death-gasps of my company that refuses to die, even after four years without generating a dime in revenue, yet is still refusing to become real enough to survive). So trying to cover our bets in three directions with three different countries' conflicting requirements regarding living status, coordinating adoption, whatever, it's been exhausting and I'm ready to collapse, except I won't have the chance as my boss is cracking the whip to get back to work for something we haven't even been able to sell yet in four years of the most intense grinding work I've ever done. Just posting this message here among my DSG friends is therapeutic right now; it's really helping me get my mind back and focused in on the core of the Dhamma, what matters and what doesn't. Just the proximity to the Bayon and Angkor Wat and Prasat Ta Prohm, and especially seeing my wife's family, who have it much harder than we do, has been helpful in bringing the mind back to the raison d'etre for being here, to bring back to mind again and again that no matter how difficult the task or however seemingly impossible, this life is too short for anything else than the pursuit of full mastery of the Dhamma, that there is no other reason for this existence than to act as best as possible in the moment, without concern for the past or future. In all, this has certainly been about the most trying and dificult couple of weeks of my life, with no end in sight. Now, just to pratice mindfulness and concentration is the task, the only cure for this burning. So perhaps in answer to Herman's question, I can say that there has not been a better opportunity for practice than now, with seemingly endless and intractable obstacles, training in yet more patience by resolving not to become upset at having what seems like every door slammed in our faces, seeing everyone vanish the moment any kind of help is needed in spite of trying my best (as admittedly imperfect as it is) to try and help others whenever the opportunity presents itself. Eath said it best to me: cut off any hope for results and just do the right thing, right now, this moment, and forget eveything else, because in the end, there's nothing else to be done. I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka anyway. As a proverb goes, if you can do something about the problem, why get upset? If you can't do anything about the problem, why get upset? I hope everyone is well, and that all being may have hapiness and cause of happiness and be free from suffering and cause of sufering, Erik 16102 From: dragonwriter2 Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Gandhari Canon http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i06/06a01801.htm 16103 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi All, One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye consciousness? Any theories? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > That was my first guess as well. Here is my concern: > 1. We have a tree leaf > 2. Some photons come along and hit the tree leaf > 3. All but the "green photons" are absorbed by the tree leaf, the > green photons are reflected > 4. Some of the reflected green photons impinge upon the eye- > sensitivity (the story from here is the thought process) > > My concern was that if we equate "visible form" with the photons, > what about the tree leaf? Is it out of the picture? > > I guess you are right; the tree leaf is already out of the picture. > So the correct perspective when I am seeing is, "There are some > coloured photons hitting my eye. Yes, those photons were conditioned > by something elese (a tree leaf), but all that I am seeing is > coloured photons.". > > Compare two situations: > A. I am looking at a "real tree leaf" > B. I am looking at a good photo of a "real tree leaf" > > In both cases, the same quality of photons are impinging on my eye > and so, at that moment, there is no difference between the two > situations. Of course at the next instant, when I look at the > surroundings, I can figure out the difference between the two > situations. > > I guess it is a lot easier to accept that there is "nothing behind > visible objects other than empty photons" than it is to > accept "there is nothing behind me other than empty processes" (i.e. > anatta). > > Alright, I will work with this approach tomorrow, unless somebody > else wants to improve on it. > > Sorry for jumping on-line without properly thinking through the > issue. I probably could have figured this out by myself (but then > again, why not share some of the fun!). > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > The list in CMA gives "visible form" as one of the Objective > Phenomena > > under Concretely Produced Matter. IMO visible form = light. I > think you > > might be equating visible form with tangibility. Consider a movie > or the > > screen you are looking at. It's visible form, light. Unknown what a > > photon is. I suspect it is visible form. Do we have some kind of a > > machine that can see individual photons? > > > > Larry 16104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Erik I was very sorry to read about your unfortunate experiences recently and the setback it has given to your plans. Best wishes for a smoother passage from here on through a bureaucratic maze that you are now trying to negotiate. And don't forget that the presently arising frustration, or other dosa of whatever kind, can be an object of awareness at any time, since it has its own characteristic! Jon --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > Been a busy week here in Cambodia. Regarding Herman's query before > about children, which I'd meant to reply to long ago, a few thoughts. > > Sarah & Jon & I talked about the various conditions and so on for > living the lay life vs. the monastic life, and if children are a > hindrance or not to the practice of the path, that the kamma for a > child to be born depends on so many conditions it's impossible to > know them all. > > This has been a big item of reflection the past few days for me, > since we have formally gone through the adoption process for my > wife's nephew (4 years old) to get him to a place he's not in danger > of dying (he's been sick enough he's been to the hospital a lot near > death in the past few months). ... > Just posting this message here among my DSG friends is therapeutic > right now; it's really helping me get my mind back and focused in on > the core of the Dhamma, what matters and what doesn't. Just the > proximity to the Bayon and Angkor Wat and Prasat Ta Prohm, and > especially seeing my wife's family, who have it much harder than we > do, has been helpful in bringing the mind back to the raison d'etre > for being here, to bring back to mind again and again that no matter > how difficult the task or however seemingly impossible, this life is > too short for anything else than the pursuit of full mastery of the > Dhamma, that there is no other reason for this existence than to act > as best as possible in the moment, without concern for the past or > future. In all, this has certainly been about the most trying and > dificult couple of weeks of my life, with no end in sight. Now, just > to pratice mindfulness and concentration is the task, the only cure > for this burning. > > So perhaps in answer to Herman's question, I can say that there has > not been a better opportunity for practice than now, with seemingly > endless and intractable obstacles, training in yet more patience by > resolving not to become upset at having what seems like every door > slammed in our faces, seeing everyone vanish the moment any kind of > help is needed in spite of trying my best (as admittedly imperfect > as it is) to try and help others whenever the opportunity presents > itself. Eath said it best to me: cut off any hope for results and > just do the right thing, right now, this moment, and forget > eveything else, because in the end, there's nothing else to be done. > > I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind > again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the > Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or > obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in > dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka > anyway. As a proverb goes, if you can do something about the > problem, why get upset? If you can't do anything about the problem, > why get upset? > > I hope everyone is well, and that all being may have hapiness and > cause of happiness and be free from suffering and cause of sufering, > Erik 16105 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 0:40am Subject: Re: Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hi Erik, Even though we wish you were in much happier circumstances, it is lovely to hear from you right now. Thank you for sharing your recent experience - my heart goes out to you and your family over the uncertainty, lack of control and the unnecessary, inefficient hindering you have had to endure from those who should have smoothed the way. It is particularly galling for someone like you who is gentle, caring and competent to go through such a frustrating time and be treated with such seeming indifference. How heart warming though to hear that even in the midst of your difficulties, you could give love and protection to your new son....fortunate little one!...and encompass your wife's sister and uncle within the boundaries of your metta and compassion. The cigarette burns are understandable - this pain was a choice, provided a focus, was concrete - real, and could be dealt with and resolved. I would have begun to wonder if I was invisible, unreal, or worthless and felt such a sense of frustration in your situation. Though possibly a little worrying to loved ones, I hope the burns were useful, at that time, as a sort of catharsis. When times are hard, I have found it most helpful to write a diary, a sort of a 'trip through hell' diary. At the end of each week it builds confidence and endurance to look back over what you have survived, how you coped, and how things really do change. Your wife sounds like a precious, wise little owl - she deserves listening to. Keeping your mind on the Dhamma and mindfully practicing as much as possible is excellent, and a great example to us all. Our life IS our practice, but how often do we let it flow by like a dream. unconscious of hours of it in any day.... in a happy, bored, or unhappy haze. When this is over, and resolved, as it WILL be Eric, you will be so much the richer within your personal relationships, your practice, and your insights into the Teachings. Some others of us are also having tough times at the moment - your example of fortitude and caring, and especially of continuing to practice with resoluteness through this period has meant more than you will ever know. with much admiration and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > Been a busy week here in Cambodia. 16106 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Rob M I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is not the same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is the rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a rupa, but is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing consciusness. Sorry I can't give you more to go on. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > consciousness? > > Any theories? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16107 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Jon (and All), Why is light not the same as "visible object"? The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four Great Elements as proximate cause. What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye consciousness. One possible explanation is that "light" refers to the generic stream of photons before being reflected from the tree leaf, while "visible object" is the specific stream of photons after being reflected by the tree leaf. The floor is still open for comments.... Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is not the > same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is the > rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a rupa, but > is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing > consciusness. > > Sorry I can't give you more to go on. > > Jon > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > > consciousness? > > > > Any theories? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 16108 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Rob M --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? Is light what is seen by eye-consciousness? If not, it's not visible object. Light (alone) would not yield shape and form on analysis (by thinking). Jon > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > consciousness. > > One possible explanation is that "light" refers to the generic > stream of photons before being reflected from the tree leaf, > while "visible object" is the specific stream of photons after being > reflected by the tree leaf. > > The floor is still open for comments.... > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob M > > > > I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is > not the > > same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is > the > > rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a > rupa, but > > is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing > > consciusness. > > > > Sorry I can't give you more to go on. > > > > Jon > > > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > > > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > > > consciousness? > > > > > > Any theories? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) 16109 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Jon, What appears at the back of the retina is simply a pattern of light; the mind conceptualizes this into shape and form. Light must be in a pattern for a shape to be conceptualized. The pattern is conditioned on what (tree leaf) reflected the light into the eye-sensitivity. All the same, what impinges is light, not the tree leaf. I am not totally comfortable with the idea that visible object = light, mainly because I can't find any author who has made that statement. On the other hand, I can't think of any other explanation that fits with the description in the Atthasalini and Visuddhimagga. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? > > Is light what is seen by eye-consciousness? If not, it's not visible > object. Light (alone) would not yield shape and form on analysis (by > thinking). > > Jon > > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > > consciousness. > > > > One possible explanation is that "light" refers to the generic > > stream of photons before being reflected from the tree leaf, > > while "visible object" is the specific stream of photons after being > > reflected by the tree leaf. > > > > The floor is still open for comments.... > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob M > > > > > > I don't know anything much about this, except I know that light is > > not the > > > same as visible form (aka visible object). Visible form/object is > > the > > > rupa that is experienced by seeing consciusness. Light is not a > > rupa, but > > > is still a necessary condition for v/o to be experienced by seeing > > > consciusness. > > > > > > Sorry I can't give you more to go on. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > > > > > One final question; if visible form = light, then why did the > > > > Vishuddhi Magga XV list them as separate conditions for eye > > > > consciousness? > > > > > > > > Any theories? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob M :-) 16110 From: Sarah Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? .... Because visible object is a rupa, that which is seen and light isn't. If the act of seeing is considered by way of aggregates, light isn't mentioned. Similarly for bases or elements, all of which are classifying the act by way of realities. One example by way of elements from Sammohavinodani transl 1760: "Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the state associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. In this way "looking towards and looking away" is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away?" However, when we consider the various conditions, concepts can also be certain conditions. For example, concept or reality can be object condition (arammana paccaya). Anything can be an object of experience. Likewise for decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya). Under natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya), friends, home, climate and diet can act as condition. In the Satipatthana Sutta, we read about the favourable climate for the Kurus and we all know about the value of wise friends here. So following the sections discussing the process of seeing by way of aggregates, bases and elements (quoted), the text above continues (1761): "Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object condition; adverting is proximity, contiguity, decisive-support, absence and disappearance conditions; LIGHT is decisive support condition; feeling etc are conascence and other conditions. Thus is "looking towards and looking away" stated in terms of these conditions. Herein what single person looks towards, what person looks away?" **** Rob, hope this helps a little and your lecture goes well. It's late here for me (after teaching all day ), so I hope I'm not saying anything silly in my rather dopey state. We're also off hiking first thing tomorrow, so I doubt we'll be able to add anything else. Sarah ====== > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > consciousness. 16111 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi All, Sorry, I am still confused. If we look for analogies for the other senses, we see that "sound" is a rupas as well. If "sound" makes the list, why doesn't "light"? I guess for the moment, I am still sticking to visible object = light, but I am keen to hear anybody else's ideas to help me "see" more clearly. Jon and Sarah are going to bed (I really appreciate their attempts to disentangle me)... is there somebody in another time zone who wants to take a stab at this? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob M, > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon (and All), > > > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? > .... > Because visible object is a rupa, that which is seen and light isn't. > > If the act of seeing is considered by way of aggregates, light isn't > mentioned. Similarly for bases or elements, all of which are classifying > the act by way of realities. One example by way of elements from > Sammohavinodani transl 1760: > > "Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible > datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the state > associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. > In this way "looking towards and looking away" is stated in terms of these > four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person > looks away?" > > However, when we consider the various conditions, concepts can also be > certain conditions. For example, concept or reality can be object > condition (arammana paccaya). Anything can be an object of experience. > Likewise for decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya). Under > natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya), friends, > home, climate and diet can act as condition. In the Satipatthana Sutta, we > read about the favourable climate for the Kurus and we all know about the > value of wise friends here. So following the sections discussing the > process of seeing by way of aggregates, bases and elements (quoted), the > text above continues (1761): > > "Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object > condition; adverting is proximity, contiguity, decisive-support, absence > and disappearance conditions; LIGHT is decisive support condition; > feeling etc are conascence and other conditions. Thus is "looking towards > and looking away" stated in terms of these conditions. Herein what single > person looks towards, what person looks away?" > **** > > Rob, hope this helps a little and your lecture goes well. It's late here > for me (after teaching all day ), so I hope I'm not saying anything silly > in my rather dopey state. We're also off hiking first thing tomorrow, so I > doubt we'll be able to add anything else. > > Sarah > ====== > > > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > > consciousness. 16112 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Hi Rob, According to the Mahatika commentary on this passage, the 'light' (aaloka) refers to a light source such as sunlight. Here's what the commentary says: aalokaadayo ti aaloko naama suuriyaalokaadi. tassa suttantanayena upanissayabhaavo veditabbo, eva.m sesaani pi. -- ed. Dr. Rewatadhamma, p. 1097 My translation: "Light, etc.," -- 'light', namely, is the light of the sun, etc. The decisive support condition of this should be understood by the suttanta method, so also for the remaining (aperture, air, etc.). The reference to 'the suttanta method' suggests that it belongs to the conventional way of teaching in contrast to the Abhidhamma method. Note also the following in Sarah's reply: "LIGHT is decisive support condition" from the Vibhanga commentary. I hope this is of some help. Best wishes, Jim > I note that the Visuddhimagga (XV, 39) states about the conditions > for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye-sensitivity, > visible object, light and attention". > > Eye-consciousness is a citta and attention is a cetasika; both are > nama. Eye-sensitivity and visible objects are rupa; they are clearly > on the list of 28. > > But what about light? It is clearly not nama, but I can't find it on > the list of 28 rupas. > > Light has all of the four Great Essentials; it has earth element (it > is affected by gravity), it has water element (cohesion), it has > fire element (it carries energy, can create temperature) and it has > the air element (it moves). > > I notice that "sound" made it to the list of rupas, so why > not "light"? > > Does anybody have any ideas? > > I have my class tomorrow morning, so I need an answer today if > possible. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16113 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati op 03-10-2002 09:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Dear Rob M, Sarah and all, I checked my Thai edition of the Co to the sutta: the Papa~ncasuudanii. The words: The Pali for Discrimination is: nepakka, penetration. The Book of Analysis (249) states: In the Co to the sutta : There is a question, why pa~n~naa is here together with sati.The answer: N: This remark is worth considering. Do we want many moments of sati? But what is the use if pa~n~naa is lacking? This reminds us to consider cause and effect when acting in this or that way. The Co goes on: < the words done long ago (carikata.mpi): the development of the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others do long ago, through bodily action.> N: See Vis. IV, 60: these include also duties to teachers, to visitors, etc. The CO: The Co gives examples of extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc. The words remembering and recollecting are explained in English in my PTs edition: saritaa, remembering once, and anusaritaa, remembering again and again. The Co speaks again about kamma through body and speech, explaining that kamma through the body done long ago, means, through body-intimation ( the rupa which is kayavi~n~natti) and kamma through speech, done long ago, means, through speech-intimation (the rupa which is vaci-vi~n~natti). It explains that there are ruupa, citta and cetasika, thus, rupa dhammas and arupa dhammas: there should be awareness of them as: they arise thus, they fall away thus. Here sati as factor of enlightenment has been explained, according to the co. It states that by this kind of sati the ariyan disciple knows: Nina. Rob M wrote: >> Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has >> mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he >> recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the >> text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original >> meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – >> memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen >> attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory >> of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven >> factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." > ***** Sarah: I’ve checked the sutta too. Just a few comments (but not answers): > > 1. The reference describes those ‘in higher training’, i.e those who have > attained to stages of enlightenment. > 2. Also it refers to those who have attained all 4 jhanas. > 3. The commentary tells us this quote refers to the bhojjhangas > (enlightenment factors). > 4. In the section on bhojangas in the Satipatthana Sutta and com. there is > no reference to recollection of the past. I wonder if this refers to > insight being coupled with jhanas? 16114 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? (Somewhat urgent - I have a class tomorrow) Dear Rob M. See atth: 317: Visible object is just coloired appearance`'; or it shines...And further: the pair of terms shady and glowing have been mutually divided. Light and dim likewise. Dhsg, 617: low, high, shady, glowing, light, dim... disc of moon. Conventional language is used to explain that colours are not neutral, but different. Once A. Sujin explained: we can call it colour or light, it does not matter, it just appears through eyes. Also the conditions for seeing: in some places light is not mentioned, in other texts it has been mentioned as a condiiton. To show: when the room is light there are conditions for seeing and then discerning different objects. When the room is pitch dark it is not so. A way of explaining and we should not make this too complicated. I hope this helps a little. Success. Nina. op 05-10-2002 14:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Hi Jon (and All), > > Why is light not the same as "visible object"? > > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. > > What else is it that strikes the eye if not light? Certainly not the > tree leaf that reflected the light into the eye. > > Bit this still leaves the question as to why the Visuddhimagga XV, > 39 listed both light and visible object as conditions for eye > consciousness. > 16115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Rob M --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > What appears at the back of the retina is simply a pattern of light; > the mind conceptualizes this into shape and form. > > Light must be in a pattern for a shape to be conceptualized. The > pattern is conditioned on what (tree leaf) reflected the light into > the eye-sensitivity. All the same, what impinges is light, not the > tree leaf. Here you are using 'light' in the scientific sense of the word, I think. In our context, however, I see light as being used in the sense of brightness, ie, the opposite of darkness. If there is total darkeness, no seeing can take place, even though the other 3 factors may be potentially 'available'. Jon PS Do let us know how the class went! > I am not totally comfortable with the idea that visible object = > light, mainly because I can't find any author who has made that > statement. On the other hand, I can't think of any other explanation > that fits with the description in the Atthasalini and Visuddhimagga. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 16116 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 11:33pm Subject: Today's Class Hi All, I presented the discussion of 'visible object' and 'light' in class as an unresolved issue. The class was a little fast paced, because I wanted to cover all 28 rupas in one class. I think it came across as a little technical, not one of the more interesting classes as it was difficult to relate much of the material to daily life. Each week, we pass around a donation tin and each month, our class donates US$130 to get Dhamma books printed. This month, I suggested that we donate to a group called "WAVE" and the class agreed. I went to the WAVE office and guess what book they are planning to reprint next? Soma Thera's, "The Way of Mindfulness". The printing will be done in a couple of months and everybody in the class should get a copy. I think that the day that I hand out the books will be an opportune time to study the Sutta (again) in detail in my class. Of course, I will be drawing heavily on the DSG comments over the next month or two for my preparation. I am really looking forward to next week. The subject will be "Realities and Concepts". I will summarize Khun Sujin's book as a handout and also extract stuff from "Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda (a more technical piece). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > What appears at the back of the retina is simply a pattern of light; > > the mind conceptualizes this into shape and form. > > > > Light must be in a pattern for a shape to be conceptualized. The > > pattern is conditioned on what (tree leaf) reflected the light into > > the eye-sensitivity. All the same, what impinges is light, not the > > tree leaf. > > Here you are using 'light' in the scientific sense of the word, I think. > In our context, however, I see light as being used in the sense of > brightness, ie, the opposite of darkness. If there is total darkeness, no > seeing can take place, even though the other 3 factors may be potentially > 'available'. > > Jon > > PS Do let us know how the class went! > > > I am not totally comfortable with the idea that visible object = > > light, mainly because I can't find any author who has made that > > statement. On the other hand, I can't think of any other explanation > > that fits with the description in the Atthasalini and Visuddhimagga. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 16117 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Erik Now that I've read your post more closely, I can see what a harrowing experience it must have been for you. As you point out, Erik, bad news is an aspect of the 8 worldly conditions, and these are conditions from which no-one (not even the enlightened being) is free while still within samsara. We sometimes forget, however, that the hearing of bad news is not the same thing as akusala vipaka, since it may or may not involve unpleasant experience through one of the sense-doors. Mostly, the unpleasantness we 'experience' at these times is in our reaction to what we have heard -- its meaning and the consequences we attach to that meaning -- and this reaction is a reflection of our accumulated tendencies, driven not by anything to do with the intrinsic nature of the sense-door experience itself, but by our expectations and fears and the fact that we view life very much from the perspective of our own interests. Experiences such as you and Eath have been through lately are indeed a test of one's accumulated kusala in general, and patience and understanding in particular. (Of course, mostly we fail the test, but that is only to be expected ;-).) I think the value of patience is easy enough to see. But more important, in my view, is understanding. Without understanding, one sees the bad news as misfortune already experienced, as something that has already impacted adversely on oneself and one's loved-ones. Only with developed understanding can the 'bad' news/experience be seen as it truly is, merely different moments of empty phenomena rolling on, no different from those before it or those coming after it. Knowing this in theory is one thing, and our past reflections on this theme and on the inevitability of good and bad vipaka can be of support at such times, but it is the understanding of the characteristics of dhammas, based on the direct experience of those dhammas, that allows one truly to not be disturbed by such events. It might be tempting to think that developed concentration would be the key to coping better in such circumstances. But the picture we get from reading texts such as the Visuddhimagga is somewhat different: worldly concerns and distractions such as these are a hindrance to the development of samatha, and a threat to its maintenance once developed, and that's why it is said that a person aspiring to highly developed samatha can only succeed if the external circumstances (as well as the person's accumulated tendencies) are appropriate. The understanding of the true nature of realities is one's best friend in any adversity, because only by that means does one slowly weaken the deeply rooted, unwholesome accumulated tendencies (kilesa), and at the same time develop the patience, that is necessary if one is to remain truly unperturbed by the worldly conditions. Erik, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before things pick up again. Just keep in mind that when the good news comes, the reaction is probably going to be much the same in terms of the mix of kusala and akusala, but that the feeling will be pleasant feeling instead of the unpleasant feeling of this present experience (and so, perhaps, less likely to be seen for what it truly is ;-)). Jon --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > Been a busy week here in Cambodia. Regarding Herman's query before > about children, which I'd meant to reply to long ago, a few thoughts. > > Sarah & Jon & I talked about the various conditions and so on for > living the lay life vs. the monastic life, and if children are a > hindrance or not to the practice of the path, that the kamma for a > child to be born depends on so many conditions it's impossible to > know them all. > > This has been a big item of reflection the past few days for me, > since we have formally gone through the adoption process for my > wife's nephew (4 years old) to get him to a place he's not in danger > of dying (he's been sick enough he's been to the hospital a lot near > death in the past few months). ... > I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind > again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the > Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or > obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in > dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka > anyway. As a proverb goes, if you can do something about the > problem, why get upset? If you can't do anything about the problem, > why get upset? > > I hope everyone is well, and that all being may have hapiness and > cause of happiness and be free from suffering and cause of sufering, > Erik 16118 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, do you see any difference between the knowledge mentioned in the > Satipatthana Sutta and the insight (vipassana) that is usually mentioned > as arising after jhana? > > Larry I'm not sure I've understood your question correctly, Larry, but let me try and answer it this way. The terms 'satipatthana' and 'vipassana' usually refer to the development of insight into the true nature of things, and this is the same insight no matter in whom it is developed or under what circumstances, to my underestanding. Jon 16119 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Larry You say: <> Any textual reference for this? I guess our look at the Satipatthana Sutta may yield an answer at some stage. My understanding is that any moment of kusala has its own characteristic as a kusala dhamma, and that this characteristic can be known if panna of the appropriate level arises. Without that knowledge, however, any idea about the kusala nature of a given moment or situation (e.g., 'I'm doing X, this must be kusala') is just speculation. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon, > > Thanks for the link and thanks to Nina for writing it. This accords > nicely with Rob's quotes and adds something on the relationship between > sati and vipassana. Sati is the remembrance of vipassana applied to the > object. If I had read it before it had never stuck in my mind that sati > is the remembrance of kusala; in this case the kusala of seeing anicca, > dukkha, anatta, or, on a mundane level, at least the idea of anicca, > dukkha, anatta. > > There has always been a lingering frustration with not experiencing a > genuine insight while practicing mindfulness of breathing. Any thoughts > that may have arisen, even thoughts about dhamma, I had dismissed as > distractions. I think this added dimension of memory will definitely > perk up the practice and make it more meaningful. Plus, I think the mere > activity of sitting there in the meditation posture cultivating alert > tranqulity is kusala and as such is an integral part of the sati > proceedure. I'm sure I have been told this before, but it has always > gone in one ear and out the other. > > Larry 16120 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:20am Subject: Re: Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma --- Dear Erik, I was touched by your letter telling us about your new life and the help you are giving and the responsibilities you now have. I spoke to Ivan (thirty years in Thailand) about your visa problems and he told me this is so common. One of the british guys at his office has just been turned down for a work visa and had to get a one month tourist visa (has been living in thailand for 2 or 3 years)- no good reason why he was turned down. The government do what they can to make things hard as there are so many farang in thailand and the authorities have no easy (or intelligent) way of screening the good from the bad. You wrote: > """Has this been an opportunity for practice? Definitely. The only > thing that has let me retain any sanity is the knowledge that these > are mental projections arising in dependence on kamma, and to just > try to let go and let go of wishing for anything at all, to not get > upset when I don't get what I want (one of the Eight Worldly > Concerns), to just let it ride, to recall again and again that this > too is merely appearances. But goddammit the dukkha has been > intense: feeling like """" So encourging that you see the Dhamma side of these events as I think it is thammada (thai for ordinary) that difficulties occur; samsara is of this nature. I vomited severely for about 5 hours on wednesday (I arrived on Sunday in Bangkok) but it was a good chance to study feeling, and investigate again (and again) how the feeling that arises when there is moments of painful bodily feeling can't occur when there are moments of seeing. In that was, although there was no strong insight, the time passed very profitable and in a calm way. Also yahoo have lost my 50 meg rocketmail account (1 in a million chance they say) and havent been able to recover it so far - but there can only be worry if there is reflection in an unwise way on this. On the other hand this morning at breakfast they overcharged me and I was sharp with the waitress- no insight at all till I rememered, as she was walking away, that this anger arose simply because of taking concepts as object (with attachment); there were no painful feelings - simply the experience of sound and then concepts rooted in dosa arose. Then the anger disappeared(must try to make it up to the waitress next time). Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > > Hello DSG'ers, > > , 16121 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati --- Dear Nina et al, thanks for these notes from the commentary. We may wonder why inisight is not strong now, why genuine sati does not apear as often as avijja or self clinging. The answer must be that the conditions have not been accumulated. As the Commentary says the conditions for panna include such things as """"< the works done long ago (carikata.mpi): the development of > the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the > duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others do > long ago, through bodily action.>AND himself has spoken or others have spoken long ago.> The Co gives examples of > extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc."" So many little things that need to become habitual to support the development of insight. If these are not our habits now this may be because they were not our habits in past times. Perhaps we are stingy, or hold grudges - and yet still hope for insight to arise. And sure, it can...but also possibly there is needed preliminary work on a moment to moment, daily basis to support satipatthana. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 03-10-2002 09:50 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > Dear Rob M, Sarah and all, > I checked my Thai edition of the Co to the sutta: the 16122 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma --- Dear Erik, Chrsitine and Jon, Just read over your excellent replies to Erik. I want to add to this comment jon made: In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: >> Erik, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before things pick up again. > Just keep in mind that when the good news comes, the reaction is probably > going to be much the same in terms of the mix of kusala and akusala, but > that the feeling will be pleasant feeling instead of the unpleasant > feeling of this present experience (and so, perhaps, less likely to be > seen for what it truly is ;-)). >________ I know for me this is true. When things are going well then it is rather easy for me to think that patience and other qualities are established but this is conceit and attachment. The pleasant flow of lobha (desire) is dangerous and - thanks for reminding me Jon- lobha, and its objects must be investigated too,. Robert 16123 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 10/5/02 11:29:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Here you are using 'light' in the scientific sense of the word, I think. > In our context, however, I see light as being used in the sense of > brightness, ie, the opposite of darkness. If there is total darkeness, no > seeing can take place, even though the other 3 factors may be potentially > 'available'. > ========================== I get what you are saying. You are saying, I believe, that in our context when we speak of light it is in a phenomenological sense as opposed to referencing an alleged "external" cause of the brightness-experience. (I'm not claiming here that you are joining the radical phenomenalist camp, but are merely pointing to what is being referred to in this particular context.) With regard to the final sentence of yours that I quote above, however, I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to me - we see black. It seems to me that so long as we are a) conscious, and b) attending to vision, there is seeing. But after we *fully* lose consciousness, or if our attention has shifted *entirely*, i.e., for more than a moment, but for an extended period, to another sense (both rare circumstances), then there is no seeing. But even when, in a lighted room, we are attending *apparently* entirely to a nonvisual sense or when we are asleep , if the room is plunged into complete darkness we often will notice that, our attention shifting to the sense of sight in both cases, and our being awakened in the latter case. (Also, when *in the process* of losing consciousness (e.g. fainting/passing out) there may be seeing, and it is often described as "seeing black".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16124 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Today's Class Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/6/02 2:34:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > I am really looking forward to next week. The subject will > be "Realities and Concepts". I will summarize Khun Sujin's book as a > handout and also extract stuff from "Concept and Reality in Early > Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda (a more technical piece). > > =============================== I will be very interested in hearing about this. I own and value that book by the Venerable, the main topic of which seems to be conceptual proliferation (papanca), as I own and value his other book, The Magic of Mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16125 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================== > I > however, I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in > total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to > me - we see black. ______________ Dear Howard, Yes. As Nina said in the texts sometimes " light is not mentioned, in other texts it has been mentioned as a condiiton. To show: when the room is light there are conditions for seeing and then discerning different objects. When the room is pitch dark it is not so. A way of explaining and we should not make this too complicated."" We are in a room that has no light - there may be 'seeing' of darkness only- but the light is turned on and many visible objects appear. Robert 16126 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hello all, Howard: >I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in >total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems to >me - we see black. (William James once gave this an example of a pseudo-problem: A hunter goes around a tree which has a squirrel on the trunk and, moving opposite the hunter, always keeps the trunk between them. Does the hunter circle the squirrel? If it's dark and there are no photons striking the retina one is not seeing. If it's dark one has an experience of seeing blackness.) BTW, if you attend to what you see when it's completely dark you don't see black, you see phosphenes (it's that light static / background). You actually see this all the time, if you look carefully. metta, stephen PS: If this was PlatoStudyList, or some other group in Greek philosophy would anyone be having a serious discussion of rather the world was made of earth, air, fire, and water? 16127 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 9:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Jon, I agree. Panna arose. The reference was to verbal and written instructions by modern teachers. Larry ------------------- Jon: "Larry You say: <> Any textual reference for this? I guess our look at the Satipatthana Sutta may yield an answer at some stage. My understanding is that any moment of kusala has its own characteristic as a kusala dhamma, and that this characteristic can be known if panna of the appropriate level arises. Without that knowledge, however, any idea about the kusala nature of a given moment or situation (e.g., 'I'm doing X, this must be kusala') is just speculation. Jon" 16128 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Jon, I think there might be a slight difference between the knowledge in satipatthana and insight knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta, but I'm not sure. Maybe Nina could comment. For example, the inventory of the various repulsive aspects of the body is rather objective and impersonal. Insight seems to go further and say this is dukkha. I guess the one could arise after the other, but my impression was that jhana laid the ground for a deeper insight. Maybe I'm just getting mundane and supra-mundane levels mixed up. I'm a little confused on this point. Larry ps: of course insight knowledge would arise with sati. ------------- Jon: "Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, do you see any difference between the knowledge mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta and the insight (vipassana) that is usually mentioned as arising after jhana? Larry I'm not sure I've understood your question correctly, Larry, but let me try and answer it this way. The terms 'satipatthana' and 'vipassana' usually refer to the development of insight into the true nature of things, and this is the same insight no matter in whom it is developed or under what circumstances, to my underestanding. Jon" 16129 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 10/6/02 12:01:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > Hello all, > Howard: > >I don't think that it is 100% correct that there is no seeing in > >total darkness. In such circumstances, we see darkness, itself, it seems > to > >me - we see black. > (William James once gave this an example of a pseudo-problem: A hunter goes > > around a tree which has a squirrel on the trunk and, moving opposite the > hunter, always keeps the trunk between them. Does the hunter circle the > squirrel? > If it's dark and there are no photons striking the retina one is not > seeing. > If it's dark one has an experience of seeing blackness.) > > BTW, if you attend to what you see when it's completely dark you don't see > black, you see phosphenes (it's that light static / background). You > actually > see this all the time, if you look carefully. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I understand. (BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic 'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) ---------------------------------------------------- > > metta, stephen > PS: If this was PlatoStudyList, or some other group in Greek philosophy > would > anyone be having a serious discussion of rather the world was made of > earth, > air, fire, and water? > > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16130 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, all - In a message dated 10/6/02 3:39:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, I understand. (BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic > 'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) > ---------------------------------------------------- > ============================== Never mind!! I need to learn to distinguish 'n' from 'm'! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16131 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hello Howard, >(BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic >'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) I have it from phos, light + phainein, to show (Greek). Otherwise, I just take it to mean those specks or static or sparks of light —random firing of neurons?—on sees in the dark, or against a dark background. It also means those larger blotches one can produce by poking the side of the eye. As for its atom-like characteristics, which is what I think you're asking, I dunno; maybe. Someone else? [Lama Surya Das (spelling?) said it's an old Dzogchen trick to do this, to poke one's eye to make the world appear double and such, to break up the sense of reality, of solidness. To get this one in I'll say I think it's in the Satipatthana Sutta ;-) Yeah, it's in the back somewhere.] metta, stephen 16132 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Light a Rupa? Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 10/6/02 6:46:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hello Howard, > >(BTW, 'phosphene' reminds me of the linguistic > >'phoneme' and 'morpheme'. Is it a visual analog?) > I have it from phos, light + phainein, to show (Greek). Otherwise, I just > take it to mean those specks or static or sparks of light —random firing of > > neurons?—on sees in the dark, or against a dark background. It also means > those larger blotches one can produce by poking the side of the eye. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I did understand what you were referring to. My question, however, was pointless, simply resulting from conflating 'm' and 'n'! -------------------------------------------------- As for > > its atom-like characteristics, which is what I think you're asking, I > dunno; > maybe. Someone else? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nah, forget it. You are kind in looking for something reasonable that I was thinking. The fact is, I *wasn't* thinking! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- > [Lama Surya Das (spelling?) said it's an old Dzogchen trick to do this, to > poke one's eye to make the world appear double and such, to break up the > sense of reality, of solidness. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Interesting. I've thought of that myself - that the change in what is seen when pressing on the eyeball shows the non-objectivity of what as seen (or, at least, its dependence on conditions determined by "the observer"). ------------------------------------------------- To get this one in I'll say I think it's in > > the Satipatthana Sutta ;-) Yeah, it's in the back somewhere.] -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good! That'll work! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- > metta, stephen > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16133 From: peterdac4298 Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 4:11pm Subject: Hi posters and lurkers Just to say hello. Have been away for quite a while but hope to pop in from time to time. Cheers Peter 16134 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Tibetan Book of the Dead in Rupa Class Hi All, In this week's class, a student commented, "In the Tibetan Book of the Dead, it says that when a person dies, the first element to fail is the earth element and, because of that, they are unable to hold up a cup with their hand. Yet according to what you have said, it is the wind element that supports a hand in holding up a cup." Is there somebody out there who can make a few comments on the difference in treatment of rupas between Theravada and Vajarana? Thanks, Rob M:-) 16135 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tibetan Book of the Dead in Rupa Class Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/6/02 8:42:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi All, > > In this week's class, a student commented, "In the Tibetan Book of > the Dead, it says that when a person dies, the first element to fail > is the earth element and, because of that, they are unable to hold > up a cup with their hand. Yet according to what you have said, it is > the wind element that supports a hand in holding up a cup." > > Is there somebody out there who can make a few comments on the > difference in treatment of rupas between Theravada and Vajarana? > > Thanks, > Rob M:-) > ========================= I really know nothing about this (from the perspective of either tradition!), but one thought that I have is that both earth element and wind element are involved, the motion of lifting being the wind element, and the strength needed for holding being the earth element. When the strength fails, there will be no ability to hold a cup. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16136 From: Date: Sun Oct 6, 2002 5:05pm Subject: laughing arahats Hello all, When I was a kid I used to see all those fat, smiling 'Buddhas' among the trinkets in tourist shops; now I find out that they're not only not the Buddha but that Buddhas can't laugh. I'm quite doubtful about this and wonder if there's any sutta reference to support it, or what the reason behind this apparently sad theory is. In ADL (p.82) Nina writes of the hasituppada-citta as, "...the smile-producing-consciousness of the arahat." What a curious notion! She continues: "Arahats do not laugh aloud, because they have no accumulations for laughing; they only smile." Lama Anagarika Govinda (odd name :-), in "The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy," defines this same consciousness as "The joyful consciousness of the genesis of aesthetic pleasure." (p.103). He continues: "...[it] is accompanied by joy and free from evil root-causes and karma-creating effects because, as Bhikkhu Silacara once said: 'in the contemplation of the beautiful, if it is really pure, there are no selfish motives and man is completely free from the 'ego'. The complete absence of the 'ego', if maintained, is nibbana. And the man who is enabled temporarily to be freed from the 'ego' in the contemplation of the beautiful, has thus temporarily experienced nibbana in a way which might lead him finally to the complete, real, perfect nibbana. Therefore I maintain that beauty will help many to find nibbana.' The concept of the beautiful (subha, sobhana) in Buddhism is closely related to the idea of purity and of the Good, similar to Plato's teaching of the identity of the Good, the Beautiful, and the True in their highest aspects. It hardly needs to be said that in Buddhism, too, the Good is not to be separated from the True, i.e., from that which is in accordance with the laws of Reality..." I prefer the latter both because it makes no mention of laughter but also because of the philosophy it embodies (which preference, unfortunately, does not suffice to make either correct.) It's in keeping with one of my favorite passages from the Dhammapada (99): "Charming are the forests which do not attract the multitudes. But the holy ones, free from attachments, find delight in them for they are not seekers after the allurements of the senses." (Harischandra Kaviratna) "In forests where others find no delight, there they will know delight. Because they do not look for pleasure, they will have it." (Max Muller) I think so. And perhaps a good joke. metta, stephen 16137 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 1:20am Subject: Re: laughing arahats Hi Stephen, Possibly this will be of assistance. metta, Christine --------------------------------- Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Anurudhacariya "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada Maha Thera "26. Hasituppada is a citta peculiar to Arahats. Smiling is caused by a pleasurable feeling. There are thirteen classes of consciousness by which one may smile according to the type of the person. An ordinary worldling (puthujjana) may laugh with either one of the four types of cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasure, or one of the four kusala cittas, accompanied by pleasure. Sotapannas, Sakadagamis, and Anagamis may smile with one of the two akusala cittas, disconnected with false view, accompanied by pleasure, or with one of the four kusala cittas. Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppada. Samma Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, accompanied by wisdom and pleasure. There is nothing but mere mirth in the hasituppada consciousness. The Compendium of Philosophy states: "There are six classes of laughter recognized in Buddhist works: (1) sita: - a smile manifesting itself in expression and countenance; (2) hasita: - a smile consisting in the slight movements of the lips just enough to reveal the tips of the teeth; (3) vihasita: - laughter giving out a light sound; (4) upahasita: - laughter accompanied by the movement of the head, shoulders, and arms; (5) apahasita: - laughter accompanied by the shedding of tears; and (6) atihasita: - an outburst of laughter accompanied by the forward and backward movements of the entire body from head to foot. Laughter is thus a form of bodily expression (kaya-viññatti), which may or may not be accompanied by vocal expression (vaci-viññatti). Of these, the first two classes are indulged in by cultured persons, the next two by the average man, and the last two by the lower classes of being. " http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/abhisgho/abhis01.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > When I was a kid I used to see all those fat, smiling 'Buddhas' among the > trinkets in tourist shops; now I find out that they're not only not the > Buddha but that Buddhas can't laugh. I'm quite doubtful about this and wonder > if there's any sutta reference to support it, or what the reason behind this > apparently sad theory is. 16138 From: Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hi, Stephen - Just a thought: When we non-arahants laugh, sometimes mildly and sometimes raucously and sidesplittingly, I think that it represents more than just a recognition (and enjoyment) of humor/oddity/irony, but also a release from tension or unhappiness or concern, and, in general, from a perpetual, often subliminal, dissatisfaction (dukkha). A Buddha would still see, and possibly find amusingly pleasant, the humor, oddity, and irony in a joke or in a situation, but all the conditions for a laughing release would be absent - nothing to be released from. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/7/02 12:05:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hello all, > When I was a kid I used to see all those fat, smiling 'Buddhas' among the > trinkets in tourist shops; now I find out that they're not only not the > Buddha but that Buddhas can't laugh. I'm quite doubtful about this and > wonder > if there's any sutta reference to support it, or what the reason behind > this > apparently sad theory is. > > In ADL (p.82) Nina writes of the hasituppada-citta as, "...the > smile-producing-consciousness of the arahat." What a curious notion! She > continues: "Arahats do not laugh aloud, because they have no accumulations > for laughing; they only smile." > > Lama Anagarika Govinda (odd name :-), in "The Psychological Attitude of > Early > Buddhist Philosophy," defines this same consciousness as "The joyful > consciousness of the genesis of aesthetic pleasure." (p.103). He continues: > > "...[it] is accompanied by joy and free from evil root-causes and > karma-creating effects because, as Bhikkhu Silacara once said: 'in the > contemplation of the beautiful, if it is really pure, there are no selfish > motives and man is completely free from the 'ego'. The complete absence of > the 'ego', if maintained, is nibbana. And the man who is enabled > temporarily > to be freed from the 'ego' in the contemplation of the beautiful, has thus > temporarily experienced nibbana in a way which might lead him finally to > the > complete, real, perfect nibbana. Therefore I maintain that beauty will help > > many to find nibbana.' > The concept of the beautiful (subha, sobhana) in Buddhism is closely > related > to the idea of purity and of the Good, similar to Plato's teaching of the > identity of the Good, the Beautiful, and the True in their highest aspects. > > It hardly needs to be said that in Buddhism, too, the Good is not to be > separated from the True, i.e., from that which is in accordance with the > laws > of Reality..." > > I prefer the latter both because it makes no mention of laughter but also > because of the philosophy it embodies (which preference, unfortunately, > does > not suffice to make either correct.) > > It's in keeping with one of my favorite passages from the Dhammapada (99): > "Charming are the forests which do not attract the multitudes. But the holy > > ones, free from attachments, find delight in them for they are not seekers > after the allurements of the senses." (Harischandra Kaviratna) > "In forests where others find no delight, there they will know delight. > Because they do not look for pleasure, they will have it." (Max Muller) > I think so. And perhaps a good joke. > metta, stephen > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16139 From: Paul Ajahn Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 8:01am Subject: May I know where r u guys come from? As i can see some of ur email address is xxx@y..., so i think some of u r living in hong kong, so do i! so, just being nosy....may i know where r u guys come from? thx! 16140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 2. Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 2. Some people regret it that they were wasting their time and did not perform kusala when there was an opportunity to do so because at such moments they were inert and lazy. Then they should consider the perfection of energy and accumulate it so that there are conditions for eliminating all kinds of akusala. Viriya cetasika is classified among the cetasikas which are the ³particulars², pakinnakå. These cetasikas arise with many cittas but not with all 1) . The six particulars are: applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicåra), determination (adhimokkha), energy (viriya), enthusiasm or rapture (píti), and wish-to-do or zeal (chanda). Viriya cetasika arises time and again, it accompanies many cittas in daily life, except sixteen rootless cittas, (ahetuka cittas 2)), and it is the only cetasika among the ³particulars² which can become a perfection. When viriya which is energy for kusala has been further developed it becomes the perfection of energy, viriya. In that case, viriya is the attendant of paññå and a condition for the realization of the four noble Truths. Is viriya that arises now kusala or akusala? If it is akusala it is not a perfection. Viriya is among the particulars and thus it can accompany kusala citta or akusala citta, but most of the time it is likely to accompany the akusala citta which is rooted in lobha, attachment. Viriya accompanies akusala citta countless times, but instead of applying energy for akusala, we should endeavour to accumulate the perfection of energy, we should see its benefit. We read in the ³Expositor² (Book I, Part IV, I, 121) about viriya: ... energy has exerting as characteristic, strengthening the conascent dhammas as function, and opposition to giving way (to discouragement) as manifestation. It has been said: ³He being agitated, makes a rational effort,² hence it has a sense of urgency, or the basic condition of making energy, as proximate cause. We can see that there is energy at the moment of diligence, and this is the opposite of being lazy. However, according to the Abhidhamma which explains in detail the cetasikas accompanying citta, even when we are lazy viriya accompanies the akusala citta, and in that case viriya applies itself to laziness again and again. The Dhamma is very subtle and it should be considered in all details; for example, the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of realities should be studied and investigated. According to the ³Expositor² in the same section, the characteristic of viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic person, or the action of a courageous person. When there is viriya one is not inert or lax. One person may be courageous whereas someone else may be a coward. According to the Abhidhamma, also a coward must have viriya, energy, for cowardice. However, in the case of a courageous person the characteristic of viriya appears clearly since he must strive to accomplish something, inspite of obstacles or dangers. Such courage is the characteristic of viriya cetasika. When viriya goes together with the development of kusala, it can become a controlling faculty, the indriya of viriya. When it arises together with the other indriyas, the indriyas of confidence (saddhå), sati, samådhi (concentration) and paññå with the development of satipatthåna, it is right effort, sammåvåyåma. It is right effort for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities, just as they naturally appear at this moment. When paññå has further developed, viriya becomes a power, bala, which is unshakable, so that there is energy for awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa in whatever situation. Footnotes: 1. Seven cetasikas, the ³universals² , sabbacitta sådhårana, arise with every citta. The six particulars accompany kusala cittas, akusala cittas, vipåkacittas and kiriyacittas (inoperative, neither cause nor result), but they do not accompany every citta. 2. Viriya cetasika does not accompany the sixteen ahetuka cittas which are: the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness, pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, the five pairs of sense-cognitions of seeing, etc., pañca-vinnånas, the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampatìcchana-citta, the three types of investigating-consciousness, santírana-citta, and the determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta. 16141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: my meditation Dear Eric and Jon, First of all, Eric, I sympathize with your troubles, and I hope it will be soon that things turn out well for you and Eath. Jon, I printed out what you wrote to Eric, because many points are well worth considering again and again: . We know in theory, but, what about now? , What you wrote to Eric is to be applied in the situations of life, when we are in trying circumstances. And then what you wrote at the end: When there is pleasant feeling again we are less likely to see reality as it is. We are happy again, forget about the worldly conditions. Yes, this is my meditation, I value samatha. This is Recollection of Dhamma. Samatha can be together with vipassana. I do not see samatha as preliminary work for many moments of sati. Samatha and satipatthana can come naturally, whatever comes let it come. Nina. 16142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Larry op 06-10-2002 18:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w... > I think there might be a slight difference between the knowledge in > satipatthana and insight knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta, but I'm not > sure. Maybe Nina could comment. N: the development of satipatthana and of insight are the same. The three characteristics are known more clearly in the course of the stages of insight. First nama and rupa have to be distinguished from each other. L:For example, the inventory of the > various repulsive aspects of the body is rather objective and > impersonal. Insight seems to go further and say this is dukkha. I guess > the one could arise after the other, but my impression was that jhana > laid the ground for a deeper insight. N: When panna is more developed it will see nama and rupa more clearly and also their characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anatta. When people have inclination and skill for jhana it can arise naturally, not because one wishes for it. Also jhanacitta can be object of insight. Nobody can take hold of jhana thinking that this must be the basis for insight. We can continue this subject when we come to hair of the head, etc. in the Commentary. We are going off for a twoday hike, Larry, Nina 16143 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hi Stephen (and Howard), Thanks for asking about this Stephen - I found this article gave me a clue as to why arahants and buddhas do not laugh. metta, Christine http://www.1729.com/column/9June2000-humour.html Excerpt: "Most people think of humour as something that exists for the sake of entertainment, or for adding spice to social occasions. But humour is an aspect of the human mind, and as such, is almost certainly part of a system for information processing. So, what sort of information is being processed when we laugh at something funny ? Most humour follows a pattern like this: First we think that something is true, based on clues given to us, But then we are presented with further evidence, which shows that we were wrong, In fact we were so wrong, that there was something wrong with the thought processes that lead to the initial conclusion. And at the end of this process, we feel pleasure. <>..... a careful analysis of humour shows that it has to do with being wrong about something. And the pleasure of humour contrasts with the mental unpleasantness of being wrong in situations which are not humorous. In fact one could presume that maybe the purpose of humour is precisely to cancel out the unpleasantness caused by confronting evidence that undermines our existing belief systems, at least under certain circumstances. And those certain circumstances are when the evidence against our beliefs is so overwhelming that there is little risk in accepting we were wrong in that particular case. In fact the pleasure of humour even encourages us to actively search out evidence that we may be obviously wrong about the things we believe in. For example we might seek the company of other people who can make us laugh. To sum it up in a slogan: We do not enjoy being presented with evidence that shows we might be wrong, but we do enjoy being presented with evidence that shows that we really, really are wrong. The Pain of Being Wrong Most people are uncomfortable in situations that cause them to question the fundamental beliefs that they have about the world around them. If evidence seems to contradict that fundamental belief system, they will prefer to ignore the evidence rather than change their beliefs. They prefer not to consider even the possibility that they may be wrong. <>.... humour plays an important role in the individual's development of their own personal belief systems. A lot of humour is derived from communication via language with other members of one's society. In effect members of a social group are seeking to successfully challenge each other's belief systems, with the end result of reducing each other's glaring errors." <> 16144 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 0:52pm Subject: Munindra-ji teachings Dear List, I looked up "Anagarika Munindra" in Google and found comments about and one sentence teachings from Munindra-ji from Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg and others: "If you want to understand your mind, sit down and observe it" "Be simple and easy; take things as they come; be simple and easy" "The Buddha solved his problem -- now solve yours" Does anyone have any teachings from Munindra-ji? Thanks / Antony. 16145 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 1:06pm Subject: Wise Humor and Right Speech Dear Christine, Howard, Stephen and all, Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote in "Right Speech": "For many of us, the most difficult part of practicing right speech lies in how we express our sense of humor. Especially here in America, we're used to getting laughs with exaggeration, sarcasm, group stereotypes, and pure silliness -- all classic examples of wrong speech. If people get used to these sorts of careless humor, they stop listening carefully to what we say. In this way, we cheapen our own discourse. Actually, there's enough irony in the state of the world that we don't need to exaggerate or be sarcastic. The greatest humorists are the ones who simply make us look directly at the way things are. Expressing our humor in ways that are truthful, useful, and wise may require thought and effort, but when we master this sort of wit we find that the effort is well spent. We've sharpened our own minds and have improved our verbal environment. In this way, even our jokes become part of our practice: an opportunity to develop positive qualities of mind and to offer something of intelligent value to the people around us." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/speech.html 16146 From: Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hello Christine, Howard, all Knock, Knock. Who's there? Sam. Sam who? Sam and Janet evening... I don't think that there is any all encompassing theory of humor, though many have been proposed, and the one you posted is a good one. Certainly a lot of humor, perhaps most, is just plain mean. But some jokes, like the above, are just humorous word play, a pun on a song. Now I'm not claiming that the Buddha told "Knock. Knock." jokes, but it seems that some humor is harmless. Here's a joke the Buddha told: The Dhamma will only last half as long if women are admitted into the sangha. (Twice as many people, half as long, get it? Many bhikkhus apparently did not.) There was also a second part (probably in error, judging by your sources, concerning this particular citta) about beauty, or the aesthetic sense, being a way into enlightenment; the identification of the True with Beauty. I have some personal reasons for finding this interesting. ...So the Three Stooges are building a house and Curly is examining, then t hrowing away, about half the nails. Moe notices this and asks him why. He replies that "The point is on the wrong end." Moe thinks about this, a light dawns, then he whacks Curly with a hammer, explaining "Those nails are for the *other* side of the house!" Now that may not be humorous to an arahat (nor do most woman seem to appreciate the Three Stooges), nor edifying, but... metta, stephen 16147 From: Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 4:36pm Subject: Way 9, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Some Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Commentary to the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness with Marginal Notes The Section of the Synopsis Evam me sutam = "Thus have I heard" the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness [Satipatthana Sutta]. "I" refers to the Elder Ananda, cousin of the Buddha. At the first Buddhist Council held in the Sattapanna Cave at Rajagaha under the presidentship of the Great Disciple of the Buddha, the Elder Maha Kassapa, the Collection of the Discourses [Sutta Pitaka] was recited by the Elder Ananda. Ekam samayam bhagava Kurusu viharati = "At one time the Blessed One was living in the (country of the) Kurus." Although the territory of the Kuru Princes, their homeland, was a single contiguous domain, by taking into consideration its many villages and market-towns, it was commonly referred to by the use of the plural form "Kurus". In the time of the legendary king Mandhatu, say the commentators, inhabitants of the three continents, Pubba Videha, Apara Goyana, and Uttara Kuru, having heard that Jambudipa,[1] the birthplace of Sammasambuddhas,[2] Paccekabuddhas,[3] the Great Disciples of the Buddhas, Universal Monarchs and other beings of mighty virtue, was an exceedingly pleasant, excellent continent, came to Jambudipa with the Universal Monarch Mandhatu who was making a tour of all the continents, in due order, preceded by his Wheel Treasure. And at last when Mandhatu bodily translated himself by means of his psychic virtue to the Tavatimsa devaloka, the heaven of the Thirty-three, the people of the three continents who accompanied him to Jambudipa begged of his son for territory to live in, as they said they had come carried by the great power of Mandhatu, and were now unable by themselves to return to their own continents. Their prayer was heard and lands were granted to each of the groups of people of the three continents. The places in which these people settled got the names of the original continents from which they had emigrated. The settlement of people from Pubba Videha came to be known as Videha, of those from Apara Goyana, as Aparanta, and of those from Uttara Kuru as Kururattha. Kammasadammam nama Kurunam nigamo = "At Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people." Some explain the word Kammasadamma, here, spelling it with a "dh" instead of a "d". Since Kammasa was tamed here it was called Kammasadamma, the place of the taming of Kammasa. Kammasa refers to the cannibal of Kammasapada, the one with the speckled, black and white or grey colored foot. It is said that a wound on his foot, caused by a stake, healed, having become like a piece of wood with lines of fibre of a complex pattern [cittadaru sadiso hutva]. Therefore, he became well-known as Kammasapada, Speckled Foot. By whom was Speckled Foot tamed? By the Great Being, the Bodhisatta. In which Birth-story [Jataka] is it stated? Certain commentators say: "In the Sutasoma Birth-story". But the elders of the Great Minister at Anuradhapura, the Maha Vihara, say that it is stated in the Jayaddisa Birth-story. Kammasapada was tamed, weaned of his cannibalism, by the Great Being, in the circumstances mentioned in the Jayaddisa Birth-story. The following statement occurs in that story: To free my sire did I renounce my life, When born as very son of the king, Jayaddisa, Pañcala's sovran chief, And make even Speckled Foot have faith in me.[4] Some [keci] however explain spelling the word thus: Kammasadhamma. It is said that the traditional Kuru virtuous practice [Kuruvattadhamma] became (black or diversified or) stained [kammaso jato] in that place. Therefore, it was called Kammasadhamma. The market-town established there, too, got the same name. Why was it not said Kammasadamme Kurunam nigame using the locative? Because, it is said, there was no monastery (or dwelling place) at which the Blessed One could stay, in that market-town. Away from the market-town, however, there was a huge dense jungle in a delightful region, watered well. In that jungle, the Blessed One lived, making the market-town his place for gathering alms. ------------ 1. The Land of the Jambu, Sinhala: Ma Dam, Eugenia Jambolana, a tree that grows to fairly great proportions and yields a small roundish fruit with purple pulp enclosing a stone. 2. Fully enlightened ones. 3. Solitarily enlightened ones. 4. "See the story of Kalmasapada and its evolution in Indian literature, by Watanabe, Journal of the Pali Text Society, 1909, p. 236 foll. Maha Sutasoma Jataka (No. 537); and Jayaddisa Jataka (No. 513). Dictionary of Pali Proper Names, vol. I. pp 528-529. Watanabe's study is comprehensive. He believes Jataka No. 537 to be older than 513. Some said that the converting of Speckled Foot was in No. 537. The Maha Vihara teachers said that it was in No. 513. 16148 From: azita gill Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wise Humor and Right Speech --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Christine, Howard, Stephen and all, > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote in "Right Speech": > > dear Antony, < Thank you for these comments. If we don't watch what we say, lots of garbage comes tumbling out our mouths. I'd like to add some writings from a Peter France who wrote " the Insight of Solitude - Hermits". < 'a brother told Abbas Sisoes "I want to control my heart but I can't". The Abbas replied "how can we control our hearts when we keep open the door of our mouths." < 'just as if you leave open the door of the public baths the steam escapes and their virtue is lost, so the virtue of the person who talks a lot escapes the open doors of the voice. This is why silence is a good thing; it is nothing less than the mother of wise thoughts.' < Maybe not pure dhamma, however good reminder to watch what we say. < Cheers, Azita > 16149 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Munindra-ji teachings Dear Antony, --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear List, > Does anyone have any teachings from Munindra-ji? ..... I spent a few months meditating and studying with Munindra in Bodh Gaya in the winter of 1974/75. I don’t have any quotes to add and didn’t make any notes or keep a diary. I had a few letters from him after I left in his fine hand-writing, but I didn’t keep them. Would a few very personal impressions and memories be of any help? I arrived in Bodh Gaya with a rather superficial interest in Buddhism, coming from Sarnath and en route to a yoga ashram in the area. I never got to the yoga ashram, but spent several months living in a Tibetan tent on one rupee a day and very seriously following Munindra’s (Mahasi Sayadaw) meditation instructions. At that time, most the foreigners, as I recall, were staying in the Burmese vihara and taking 10 day courses with Goenka. When I met Munindra, I was so impressed by his sweetness, kindness and modesty that I had no interest in following other courses or teachers. I lived very quietly, followed what I then considered to be ‘the practice’ and usually every day -- especially towards the end when the dust storms were blowing around Bodh Gaya in March/April and the Tibetans and most foreigners had left --I’d visit Munindra for at least a couple of hours a day to discuss dhamma and often to share his simple lunch. He had no interest in fame or reputation and was merely concerned to help and share as best he could, content with very little. His example -- like Khun Sujin’s later -- was that of really appreciating the value of being like a dustrag*. He used to call me ‘Sila’ and sometimes we’d go for walks together. At other times, before the dust storms started, visitors like Goenka himself would join us and ask him questions on abhidhamma details, for example, and then I’d usually walk a few paces behind. He always made me feel very welcome and the appreciation of dhamma was sufficient reward as it was later when I started to spend time with Khun Sujin. He never told me to live simply or to do anything, but I learnt so much from his example. His lifestyle and way of thinking was very simple and uncomplicated. There was never any ceremony involved and again, like I found with Khun Sujin, he used to discourage unnecessary ritual or outward shows of reverence in his modest way. I realise as I’m writing that I’ve always been very drawn to these qualities for inspiration. Whatever problems would arise in a day, we’d continue discussing dhamma. One day, I arrived with an ankle the size of a balloon, I recall, from a bite. He’d make a friendly enquiry and show concern and then we’d forget it for two hours as we’d discuss dhamma. At that time, I’d read very little, but I could bring anything along to discuss from a Buddhist point of view. I remember, for quite a while, we’d read pasages from Krishnamurti and compare this with the Buddhist teachings, for example. He’d always have a twinkle in his eye and the discussions were always with smiles and never 'heavy' or argumentative in anyway. They were very precious occasions. I’d meet some of his other students who might pop in or whom I’d see in the quiet village -- no hotels, internet cafes or cars then, but most my time was spent alone with Munindra, so I never got to know anyone else very much. We had occasional correspondence for a year or two afterwards. On a later visit to Bodh Gaya I planned to visit him but he was on an overseas trip. I’ve been totally out of touch since. I think what I value most was his example of kindness, patience and modesty and his encouragement to study and consider, rather than just follow. Particularly for me at that time, coming from a Christian background and having already studied psychology for an honours degree, was the emphasis he’d make on not having to accept any part of the teachings on blind faith, but to test and prove and question again and again. Other meditation teachers did not share this emphasis. The other big factor for me in those days was my social conscience and concern and here we were in the poorest state in India. By his example, Munindra helped me to have more confidence in being content with helping and sharing as best one could at the present time, rather than making life so complicated with ones grandiose schemes and proliferations about what else one should be doing. I know he'd be very happy to see this sharing of dhamma on DSG and other websites and discussion lists. Hope this helps and I’ll be glad to hear the reason for your interest sometime. It’s been a pleasure to consider more. Sarah ==== * We had some discussion before on DSG about living like a dustrag, and Sariutta's reminders in order to see the ugliness of mana (conceit). These are just a couple of the posts, but there were several others: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9606.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9662.html 16150 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? Hi Paul, Yes, I now see our email addresses are the same @......;-) Firstly welcome to DSG - hope you find it useful here and look forward to any comments or questions. You gave a pali glossary link to Christine, so hope you're not being put off by the Pali yourself. ..... --- Paul Ajahn wrote: > As i can see some of ur email address is > xxx@y..., so i think some of u r living in > hong kong, so do i! > > so, just being nosy....may i know where r u guys come > from? .... That's great..makes it easier for me to ask you a few qus afterwards too;-) Yes, Jon and I have been living in Hong Kong for nearly 20 years now. He's Australian (but also lived in Thailand for 8 years), so in the past 30 yrs, he's only had 2 yrs in Australia. I'm English. How about you? Are you from Hong Kong originally? Please tell us a little more about your interest in dhamma and how you found yourself on DSG. (Perhaps we'll meet up off-list sometime too. We live and work in Admiralty area). Sarah ====== 16151 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Another welcome Hi Peter, --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi posters and lurkers > > Just to say hello. Have been away for quite a while but hope to pop > in from time to time. ..... Hope you also make yourself at home here and find it useful and enjoyable. Where have you been away I wonder? I'll also be glad to hear where you're from and what has brought you here in particular. Thanks for the 'hello'. It's always good to know who's listening in;-) Sarah ===== 16152 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) Hi Frank, --- Frank Kuan wrote: > Hi Sarah, thanks for the explanation. I've been busy > but also consciously cutting down on my internet time. > Trying to restrict my internet (ab)usage to 1hour max > per day. .... Thanks for sharing it with us;-) ..... > So again, if feelings are ONLY namas (mental > aggregates), then: > > 1) calling unpleasant bodily feeling sure seems like > a misnomer and adds more confusion. ..... I’ve always thought the same to be honest...... But then we also have ‘kaya vinnana’ (body consciousness), which of course is also a nama, so I think this is why we need to really unerstand what the terms mean. I remember also having a discussion with Erik about the 6 pairs of cetasikas - it’s easy to confuse kaya passaddhi (tranquillity of ‘body’), for example, with a rupa, rather than understanding it as a cetasika, another nama. ..... > 2) I have a really hard time believing that these > unpleasant bodily feelings are a function of kamma > vipaka. In this very moment, I can experience coldness > (rupa) + bodily consciousness of that rupa coldness, > and whether I feel that pleasant or unpleasant > (mental) feeling is dependent on conditions, but > pretty kammically neutral conditions most of the time > as I see it. You could argue that what I perceive as > unpleasant physical feeling is already the mental > feelings that follow the intial coldness(rupa)+bodily > consciousness+unpleasant physical feeling, but how can > we verify? ..... You always (well, nearly always) ask excellent questions, Frank, imho. You also give many of the answers;-) Just as you say, the dosa and domanassa (unpleasant mental feeling) follow on so quickly from the unpleasant bodily feeling - the dukkha, and as there is usually ignorance, there is no understanding of the distinction at all.The only way to know for sure is by developing sati and panna. The anagami and arahat still have unpleasant bodily feeling, but no dosa and domanassa. While there is no guarding of the sense doors, they’re bound to follow and so we can see where the root of the problems lie - not in the vipaka, but in the ‘response’. If there is awareness of dosa or unpleasant feeling now, I think it's apparent that it is not the same as the unpleasant (bodily) feeling when the cold water is experienced. Rob K* just gave the example of vomitting. There are the moments of unpleasant bodily experience, but then so many, many moments of aversion and unpleasant feeling about these short moments of vipaka. It can be tested out. ..... > 3) It seems like the abidhamma is trying to break > things down into a completely logical and atomic > moment by moment analysis, and it doesn't seem right > to me. In other words, I think you get yourself into > trouble by trying to find a unified theory that > explains reality through concepts, whereas the sutta > usages of things like kusala, akusala, are somewhat > fuzzier things that can't be broken down into > perfectly clean and dilineated atomic units. ..... Actually, in the suttas, such as in SN, there are many elaborations on the diversity of feelings and on the arahat’s experience of feelings. I think the Sutta usages only seem ‘fuzzier’ because they are not fully comprehended without an understanding of some Abhidhamma and commentary assistance. For example, just understanding a little about the distinction just discussed between bodily and mental feelings will make a difference when reading about feelings in the suttas. It doesn’t mean that there can be or should be a ‘logical and atomic moment by moment anlysis’ every time there is a feeling. This would be impossible and wrong view if one had this idea. It would be thinking and not understanding. ..... > It's hard to put into words what I mean, but what it > comes down to is it's more important that I decrease > the (unnecessary) mental unpleasant feeling that > follows unpleasnat physical experiences (through lots > of daily meditation practice :) , and not worry too > much whether there is a perfect theory that explains > blow by blow what's happening each mind moment. ..... So the purpose is very important.If one’s purpose is to reduce mental unpleasant feeling, the path will not be the same as if one’s purpose is to develop understanding and detachment. Of course, by its nature, dosa and domanassa are unpleasant, but as Jon just pointed out in his message to Erik, what about pleasant mental feeling and lobha when the temperature is just right and the worldly conditions are just as we’d like them? Isn’t it the attachment and ignorance of it that leads to the aversion when we receive the flip side? I appreciate your concern about an over-emphsis on theory. It’s not a question of knowing all the intricate details but some details at some crucial points can help us avoid quite a few wrong tracks or errors in thinking, I’ve found. I’ll be very glad to hear any more on these points if you have time;-) Sarah ==== *Rob, hope you're fully recovered and our sympathies for your internet losses too. 16153 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] laughing arahats Hi Stephen, I spent quite a while trying to understand the knock knock joke - until I realised that it was probably typed with an American (?) accent. If you had typed it with an Australian accent as "knock knock - who's there? - sum - sum who? - sum and jhana evening" - I would have 'got it' straight away ... :) - complete with no-selves and tenuous Dhamma focus Last week the World's Funniest Joke was announced by the University of Hertfordshire after collecting 40,000 entries and 2 million ratings over a year. The Winning Joke didn't even raise a smile from me. (though a couple of others caused a giggle.) I found I enjoyed the second placed joke much more. Humour - among those of us not yet arahants - is closely related to nationality and culture. (and, just possibly, gender.) http://web.psy.herts.ac.uk/ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello Christine, Howard, all > > Knock, Knock. > Who's there? > Sam. > Sam who? > Sam and Janet evening... > 16154 From: ajahn_paul Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? Hi Sarah, Yes, i was born in Hong Kong, been to Canada for few yrs when i was a teenager. Been to Thailand for few weeks! :) i started learning Buddhism when i was 14, the Mahayana way. And i had spent more than 2 yrs in learning the Tibetan Buddhism, it was more than 8 yrs ago! Few yrs ago, i found that the Theravada Buddhism is more systematic, and more realistic, so.... i starting from anapana.... then vipassana... but,,, reading english is still not easy for me,,, and of course learning Pali is even harder! and thats why i have 2 books at the same time, one is in english version, and the other one is in chinese version, just like "Visuddhimagga"! hahaa ^_~ Wish can learn more from this group! Paul --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Yes, I now see our email addresses are the same @......;-) > > Firstly welcome to DSG - hope you find it useful here and look forward to > any comments or questions. You gave a pali glossary link to Christine, so > hope you're not being put off by the Pali yourself. > ..... > > --- Paul Ajahn wrote: > As i can see some of ur > email address is > > xxx@y..., so i think some of u r living in > > hong kong, so do i! > > > > so, just being nosy....may i know where r u guys come > > from? > .... > That's great..makes it easier for me to ask you a few qus afterwards > too;-) > > Yes, Jon and I have been living in Hong Kong for nearly 20 years now. He's > Australian (but also lived in Thailand for 8 years), so in the past 30 > yrs, he's only had 2 yrs in Australia. I'm English. > > How about you? Are you from Hong Kong originally? Please tell us a little > more about your interest in dhamma and how you found yourself on DSG. > > (Perhaps we'll meet up off-list sometime too. We live and work in > Admiralty area). > > Sarah > ====== > > 16155 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 1:09am Subject: Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'? Hi, all - It occurred to me that these prefixes might be cognates of each other. I looked up each on the net and found the following: ******************************* The prefix epi- (or ep-) is also Greek; its meanings range from "upon" to "besides" to "over" to "outer" to "under" to "after" to "attached to." and Abhi to, unto, forward, towards, high, great, special, over ******************************** I had read recently that in the suttas, the 'abhi' in 'abhidhamma' and 'abhivinaya' meant "with regard to", "pertaining to" or "about". Now, the "attached to" of 'epi' seems to carry this meaning. Does anyone here know the facts with regard to this matter? With metta, Howard 16156 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? Hi Paul, > --- ajahn_paul wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yes, i was born in Hong Kong, been to Canada for few yrs when i was a > teenager. Been to Thailand for few weeks! :) > > i started learning Buddhism when i was 14, the Mahayana way. And i > had spent more than 2 yrs in learning the Tibetan Buddhism, it was > more than 8 yrs ago! Few yrs ago, i found that the Theravada > Buddhism is more systematic, and more realistic, so.... i starting > from anapana.... then vipassana... ..... This is all very interesting and quite unusual, especially in Hong Kong;-) ... > but,,, reading english is still not easy for me,,, and of course > learning Pali is even harder! and thats why i have 2 books at the > same time, one is in english version, and the other one is in chinese > version, just like "Visuddhimagga"! hahaa ^_~ .... Well your written English is fine and I’m sure you’re being modest. Has the Visuddhimagga been translated into Chinese? What about the rest of the Pali canon? I’m sure I’ve been told all this, but have forgotten. ..... > Wish can learn more from this group! ..... We’ll be glad to hear any of your comments or questions and you’re most welcome to ask for any clarification of any topics or posts that are too difficult to follow. Under Useful Posts, there are also some messages under New to the List and Pali which may be of interest to you or other newbies here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for the info, hope to meet you later too.(din wa hai: 23697624). Also let me know off-list if you wish to have details of B.Bodhi’s talk in Hong Kong next week. Sarah ===== 16157 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:08am Subject: "paramis are not lost through parinibbana" Dear dsg, I had the thought: "paramis are not lost through parinibbana" Any comments? I got the idea from the following sutta quote: So Ven. Ananda & Cunda the novice went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to him, "Lord, just now Cunda the novice said to me, 'Venerable sir, Ven. Sariputta has attained total Unbinding. Here are his bowl & robes.' It was as if my body were drugged, I lost my bearings, things weren't clear to me, on hearing that Ven. Sariputta had attained total Unbinding." "But, Ananda, when he attained total Unbinding, did Sariputta take the aggregate of virtue along with him? Did he take the aggregate of concentration... discernment... release... the aggregate of knowledge & vision of release along with him?" "No, lord, when he attained total Unbinding, Ven. Sariputta didn't take the aggregate of virtue... concentration... discernment... release... the aggregate of knowledge & vision of release along with him." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn47-013.html 16158 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:58am Subject: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello all, (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? metta, stephen 16159 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'? Dear Howard, It's possible that the Greek epi and the Pali/Sanskrit abhi are related but according to some of my reference materials, Gk epi is related to Pali/Sanskrit api which is rarely seen used as a prefix compared to the very common abhi which is related to Gk amphi and L. ambi (which I find a little dubious). Pali has altogether 20 prefixes (upasagga-s) and you will find some of them readily matches up with Gk ones such as: pa and pro; pari and peri; sa.m and sym; upa and hypo (also hyper and L. sub). The abhi of abhidhamma is understood in two senses according to the Atthasalini: 1. superior, higher (atireka) and 2. distinguished (visi.t.tha). Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this instead of the commentaries. Best wishes, Jim > Hi, all - > > It occurred to me that these prefixes might be cognates of each other. > I looked up each on the net and found the following: > > ******************************* > The prefix epi- (or ep-) is also Greek; its meanings range from "upon" to > "besides" to "over" to "outer" to "under" to "after" to "attached to." > > and > > Abhi to, unto, forward, towards, high, great, special, over > ******************************** > I had read recently that in the suttas, the 'abhi' in 'abhidhamma' and > 'abhivinaya' meant "with regard to", "pertaining to" or "about". Now, the > "attached to" of 'epi' seems to carry this meaning. Does anyone here know the > facts with regard to this matter? > > With metta, > Howard 16160 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'? Hi, Jim - Thank you! With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/8/02 1:14:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > It's possible that the Greek epi and the Pali/Sanskrit abhi are > related but according to some of my reference materials, Gk epi is > related to Pali/Sanskrit api which is rarely seen used as a prefix > compared to the very common abhi which is related to Gk amphi and L. > ambi (which I find a little dubious). > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16161 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 4:54pm Subject: Way 10, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued: Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine. The inhabitants of the Kuru country -- bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upasakas, upasikas -- by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate, and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions, were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings. Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places. For even as a man, having got a golden basket should fill it with divers flowers, or indeed having got a golden casket should fill it with precious jewels of the seven kinds, the Blessed One, having got a following of the Kuru-land people, dispensed, it is said, deep doctrine. Likewise, on that very account, there, in the Kurus, the Blessed One, taught other deep teachings: the Maha-nidana Sutta, Maha-satipatthana Sutta, Saropama Sutta, Rukkhupama Sutta, Ratthapala Sutta, Magandiya Sutta, and the Aneñjasappaya Sutta. Further, in that territory of the Kuru people,[5] the four classes -- bhikkhu, bhikkhuni, upasaka, upasika -- generally by nature were earnest in the application of the Arousing of Mindfulness to their daily life. At the very lowest, even servants, usually, spoke with mindfulness. At wells or in spinning halls useless talk was not heard. If some woman asked of another woman, "Mother, which Arousing of Mindfulness do you practice?" and got the reply, "None at all," then that woman who replied so was reproached thus: "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead," and was taught one of the kinds of Mindfulness-arousing. But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." >[Sc] With a perfect climate... comfortable conditions. This includes such items as wholesome food and drink essential for maintaining mind and body unimpaired. "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]". Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] -- that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said: Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out Vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.[6] >As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second." >Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained. Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"[7] say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice. -------------------- Footnotes: 5. "The ancient Kuru country may be said to have comprised the Kuruksetra and Thaneswar. The district formerly included Sonepat Amin Kernal and Panipat, and was situated between the Saraswati (mod. Sarsuti) on the north and the Drsadvat (mod. Rakshi) on the south." -- Cited from G.De by R. Mehta in the Pre-Buddhist India p. 382, Bombay, 1939. The kingdom of Kuru... was divided into three parts, Kuruksetra, the Kurus (i.e., the country of the Kurus), and Kurujangala (the forest tract included in the kingdom." Notes to S. M. Sastri's edition of Cunningham's Ancient Geography of India, p. 701, Calcutta, 1924. [Go back] 6. Samyutta Nikaya v, pages 168 and 186, P.T.S. Edition [Go back] 7. Sutta Nipata verse 714. 16162 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? In a message dated 10/8/2002 9:08:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > Hello all, > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > metta, stephen > He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. TG 16163 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, TG (and Stephen) - In a message dated 10/8/02 8:23:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 10/8/2002 9:08:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > oreznoone@a... writes: > > > > Hello all, > > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the > > > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > > metta, stephen > > > > He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a > pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. > > TG > > > ============================= Stephen's question has occurred to me as well. Your answer of serving as an example is one I find plausible but not strong. The answer of being a pleasant abiding, however, doesn't make sense to me at all. The Buddha was already free of all dukkha. He was pristine - clear of all defilements. What could he have required? Is it that the condition of an arahant/buddha when in day-to-day mode is still imperfect? If so, how? I do find this confusing. One thought is that the Buddha meditated to enter states wherein he could access information or exercise iddhis that would be useful for certain purposes. Perhaps that is grasping at straws, perhaps not. Ideas anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16164 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear group, I've been comparing the footnotes from other translations of Satipatthana Sutta. Here's an interesting one from B. Bodhi: "Though there is neither canonical nor commentarial basis for this view, it might be maintained that satipatthana is called ekayana magga, the direct path, to distinguish it from the approach to meditative attainment that proceeds through the jhanas or brahmaviharas. While the latter can lead to Nibbana, they do not do so necessarily but can lead to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal." L: Why is this? I would say because panna is a necessary part of satipatthana. Since we have a working definition of sati it might help to research a similar thorough analysis of "panna". Off hand, I would say panna is the experience of one of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) as a characteristic of the object. Is this at least in the ball park? What else do we need to know about panna and why satipatthana invariably leads to the final goal? Larry 16165 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? TGrand458@a... writes: >He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a >pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. >TG Why did the Buddha need a pleasant abiding? If meditation is instrumental / a means to an end, and the Buddha was enlightened (let's say the last is a given to those that follow), then how was meditating setting an example? Since this may sound like I'm just being argumentative I'll suggest that perhaps, and I'm wondering, if meditation is not instrumental, but an end in itself. I thank you for your reply, metta, stephen 16166 From: selamat at cbn Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? as I know, the Buddha only sleep 2 hours a day, and 22 hours teaching Dhamma and daily routine for eating, excreting, bathing. So for 22 hours continuously live in mindfulness. What kind of meditation do you mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did the Buddha meditate? > > TGrand458@a... writes: > > >He continued to meditate after becoming an arahat both because it is a > >pleasant abiding, and as a good example for those that follow. > >TG > Why did the Buddha need a pleasant abiding? > If meditation is instrumental / a means to an end, and the Buddha was > enlightened (let's say the last is a given to those that follow), then how > was meditating setting an example? > Since this may sound like I'm just being argumentative I'll suggest that > perhaps, and I'm wondering, if meditation is not instrumental, but an end in > itself. > I thank you for your reply, > metta, stephen > > 16167 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Dear Stephen, TG, Howard and all, Ven Mahasi Sayadaw said in "Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation": "One of the benefits the Arahant receives by meditating on the five aggregates is living with happiness in this world. Notwithstanding his being an Arahant, if he remains without meditation, disquiet and discomfort keep coming up at the six sense-doors, now here, now there. Here, disquiet does not mean mental distress. As the sense-objects keep coming up despite himself, he finds no peacefulness of mind. That is all. Not to speak of, even our meditators of today who are immersed in the practice feel ill at ease when meeting with the sense objects. As they return home from the meditation centre, they see this thing, hear that thing, get engaged in such and such business talks, and there is no peace at all. So they come back to the centre. To others however, the disquiet does not last very long. Just four, five or ten days. Very soon the homely spirit gets the better of them and they are happy with their home life and set to household cares again. The Arahant never returns to his old habits. If he meets with various sense-objects without meditation, only disquiet results. Only when he is absorbed in insight meditation does he find peacefulness of mind. Thus meditating on the five aggregates of grasping brings to the living with happiness in this world. Again, as he lives in earnest meditation, mindfulness and comprehension of the impermanence, suffering and not-self keep rising in him. This is another benefit. The Arahant in whom mindfulness and comprehension keep rising through meditation is said to be called satata-vihari (one who dwells with meditation constantly). Such a one can enjoy the attainment to fruition at any time and for as long as he desires. For these two benefits- a happy living in the very life and mindfulness and comprehension the Arahant lives in meditation." ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/medbud/mahasifv.zip 16168 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, Antony - In a message dated 10/8/02 9:57:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@h... writes: > Dear Stephen, TG, Howard and all, > > Ven Mahasi Sayadaw said in "Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation": > > "One of the benefits the Arahant receives by meditating on the > five aggregates is living with happiness in this world. > Notwithstanding his being an Arahant, if he remains without > meditation, disquiet and discomfort keep coming up at the six > sense-doors, now here, now there. Here, disquiet does not mean > mental distress. As the sense-objects keep coming up despite > himself, he finds no peacefulness of mind. That is all > > > ============================ With due respect to the Sayadaw, this makes no sense to me. If there is no mental distress - and there should be none, why would the Buddha care - why would he need to change things? If an arahant is not at peace with the way things are, if he needs to run from disquiet and discomfort, that is dukkha, and he is no arahant! When conditions make certain useful activiries difficult or impossible, it is reasonable that an arahant would choose to change the conditions. That makes sense to me. But that's all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16169 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back to Frank (was: Episode II: Vedana [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Frank, > . Rob K* just gave the example > of vomitting. There are the moments of unpleasant bodily experience, but > then so many, many moments of aversion and unpleasant feeling about these > short moments of vipaka. It can be tested out. > ..... > > ==== > *Rob, hope you're fully recovered and our sympathies for your internet > losses too. > > > _________ Yes, Sarah quite healthy . I can get to my internet now by going to a yahoo site in Europe then opening my account and the going to email - a backdoor yahoo came up with as they cant fix my account fully yet. On the illness: it seems to me that it is more 'strange' when the elements are in balance (i.e when not feeling ill) than when they are out of balance. When we consider the complexity of the conditions needed for nama and rupa to arise in this human plane it is really a miracle (I think) when I wake up still alive each morning. How long can it go on? So I think illness should be seen as a big chance to reflect on death and also to study directly the different types of feelings -and other dhammas that are occuring. Although possibly Acharn Sujin would say this statement is a little suspect as it might imply being negligent at the more common times when everything is going (apparently)well. Robert 16170 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? I think arahats meditate to experience nibbana. Isn't there something on this in ADL? In addition to that the Buddha's mastery of jhana was something of a feat. Perhaps there are something like aesthetic reasons for cultivating this. Or perhaps it benefits the environment now and in the future. A mahayanist would say everything he did was for all others. Larry 16171 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Group, Here are some critical remarks on Soma's translation of the commentary. On the title page of The Way of Mindfulness one reads the following: << A translation of the Satipatthana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya; its Commentary, the Satipatthana Sutta Vannana of the Papañcasudani of Buddhaghosa Thera; and excerpts from the Linatthapakasana Tika, Marginal Notes, of Dhammapala Thera on the Commentary. >> which would lead one to believe that Buddhaghosa's commentary on this sutta has been translated in full. However upon comparing the translation with the Pali text one will find a number of parts have been omitted. There are even some lines inserted that are not found in the Pali. Also note the following in the translator's note in spite of what it says on the title page: << The details and the spirit of the method are shown in the commentary-excerpts translated here. >> Immediately after the following part: << But on being questioned if she said that she was practicing such and such an Arousing of Mindfulness, then she was praised thus: "Well done, well done! Your life is blessed; you are really one who has attained to the human state; for you the Sammasambuddhas have come to be." >> almost a full page has been omitted. The commentary explains here that animals that depend on humans can also engage in the practice of satipatthana as illustrated by a story about a young parrot trained by a mahatheri to contemplate on 'bone'. A comment on the following: << Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. >> I think "the only way" is misleading. The translation is based on the above alternative meaning of the compound word 'ekaayano' (ekeneva ayitabbo). The "only" comes from the 'eva' (missing in the PTS & CSCD ed.) following 'ekena'. Soma's translation in the sutta ('this is the only way' for ekaayano aya.m... maggo) is also based on it. I think (allowing for other possible & similar ways of translating) 'To be travelled (or followed) by oneself is this path (magga)' for the purification of beings, etc. in my opinion comes much closer to the meaning intended by the commentary which Soma gives but does not show it with "the only way". If any one is interested in downloading a copy of the Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka (Sinhalese) version of the Satipa.t.thana Sutta and/or Buddhaghosa's commentary (CSCD vers.) on the same please go to the following website: http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/ These texts are in Pali using the Velthuis scheme for displaying special Pali characters without the need for installing a Pali font. They're in RTF format and readable in a word program such as WordPad and I think they can be read by Mac users as well. I have hardly proofread them so some errors such as Pali capitals not being converted may be seen but on the whole I think these texts are fairly reliable. Best wishes. Jim 16172 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? No doubt sometimes when he was seemingly meditating he was really visiting other realms, teaching the Dhamma to a different class of being. Larry 16173 From: Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Hello Jim, >I think "the only way" is misleading. The translation is based on the >above alternative meaning of the compound word 'ekaayano' (ekeneva >ayitabbo). The "only" comes from the 'eva' (missing in the PTS & CSCD >ed.) following 'ekena'. Soma's translation in the sutta ('this is the >only way' for ekaayano aya.m... maggo) is also based on it. I think >(allowing for other possible & similar ways of translating) 'To be >travelled (or followed) by oneself is this path (magga)' for >the purification of beings, etc. in my opinion comes much closer to >the meaning intended by the commentary which Soma gives but does not >show it with "the only way". I like your translation. But why not simply: "One (eka) way (yana)?" This is almost the virtual opposite of "the only way." metta, stephen 16174 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Group, Please disregard my comment below. "the only way" is fine and is based on the first interpretation of the one, single, or sole way. My mistake, Jim > A comment on the following: > > << Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself > only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of > being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning > contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or > secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. >> > > I think "the only way" is misleading. The translation is based on the > above alternative meaning of the compound word 'ekaayano' (ekeneva > ayitabbo). The "only" comes from the 'eva' (missing in the PTS & CSCD > ed.) following 'ekena'. Soma's translation in the sutta ('this is the > only way' for ekaayano aya.m... maggo) is also based on it. I think > (allowing for other possible & similar ways of translating) 'To be > travelled (or followed) by oneself is this path (magga)' for > the purification of beings, etc. in my opinion comes much closer to > the meaning intended by the commentary which Soma gives but does not > show it with "the only way". 16175 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Hello Stephen, > I like your translation. > But why not simply: "One (eka) way (yana)?" This is almost the > virtual opposite of "the only way." > metta, stephen "One way, monks, is this path" sounds alright to me. In the Tipitaka 'ekaayano' (eka+ayana) usually occurs in association with the four satipatthanas and the commentary here says that there is only one way, not two. However, from a look at the Asankhatasamyutta (SN XLIII) one gets the impression that there are many paths leading to nibbaana including satipatthana. It's somewhat confusing. Jim 16176 From: ajahn_paul Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] May I know where r u guys come from? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Paul, > > > --- ajahn_paul wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Yes, i was born in Hong Kong, been to Canada for few yrs when i was a > > teenager. Been to Thailand for few weeks! :) > > > > i started learning Buddhism when i was 14, the Mahayana way. And i > > had spent more than 2 yrs in learning the Tibetan Buddhism, it was > > more than 8 yrs ago! Few yrs ago, i found that the Theravada > > Buddhism is more systematic, and more realistic, so.... i starting > > from anapana.... then vipassana... > ..... > This is all very interesting and quite unusual, especially in Hong > Kong;-) may be caused by some good kamma from previous lives! :) > ... > > but,,, reading english is still not easy for me,,, and of course > > learning Pali is even harder! and thats why i have 2 books at the > > same time, one is in english version, and the other one is in chinese > > version, just like "Visuddhimagga"! hahaa ^_~ > .... > Well your written English is fine and I'm sure you're being modest. Has > the Visuddhimagga been translated into Chinese? What about the rest of the > Pali canon? I'm sure I've been told all this, but have forgotten. yes, i guess the english version was done at around 1953, and the chinese version started from 1957, and finally fully completed at1980! and some others had been translated to chinese too,, but i dont know the english or pali name for that! hahaha > > Wish can learn more from this group! > ..... > We'll be glad to hear any of your comments or questions and you're most > welcome to ask for any clarification of any topics or posts that are too > difficult to follow. Under Useful Posts, there are also some messages > under New to the List and Pali which may be of interest to you or other > newbies here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > Thanks for the info, hope to meet you later too.(din wa hai: 23697624). > Also let me know off-list if you wish to have details of B.Bodhi's talk in > Hong Kong next week. well,,, whats all about? in english? can u give me more details on that? Thanks! ^_^ Paul 16177 From: ajahn_paul Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 1:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Stevphen, i think the concept is wrong at the first place,,, r we trying to get something from meditating? on the other hand, where is the [end] of being a Buddhist, or the [end] of learning Buddhism? even we wont take [Nibbana] as an end, so why an Arahant is the end of that? By the way, Buddha never said meditation is a must, if u take any of his teaching is a must to be Vimutti, u r not with him at all! *sorry if my english confuse u! ^_~ 16178 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hi Erik, Like everyone else here, I was sorry to hear about your difficulties, but glad to read comments like this: ..... > I have also found it most helpful during this time to bring to mind > again and again the inspiration provided by the Buddha and the > Bodhisattvas, to keep going, no matter how many difficulties or > obstacles arise, as these are mere mental projections arising in > dependence on kamma, and we can't do a damned thing about vipaka > anyway. ..... and: ..... > Just posting this message here among my DSG friends is therapeutic > right now; it's really helping me get my mind back and focused in on > the core of the Dhamma, what matters and what doesn't. ..... I find the same. Writing and hearing and reading dhamma can give us the reminders we often forget at these times. I’ve also appreciated others’ responses. I think Eath is exactly right when she points to the expectations as leading to the unhappiness. It’s so very easy to have expectations in times of difficulty of family, friends, colleagues, bureaucrats, teachers and even past merit as you suggested. Perhaps greatest of all are the expectations we have of ourselves, forgetting entirely that what we take for ourselves are merely conditioned namas and rupas ‘fashioned like a doll’. We have ideas about how much equipoise should be maintained or how our speech should always be just right. We regret not having more mindfulness or having indulged in useless activities, wasting time in the past. Doesn’t this kind of regret and wishful thinking and expectation merely show up the clinging to self, the clinging to having kusala at all times, the clinging to practice and the aversion to seeing the accumulated tendencies as they really are when tested? If we don’t see them at these times, we might kid ourselves we are better or beyond such reactions, so with a little honesty we may be glad to see the kilesa (defilements) for what they are. We don’t need to add to the pressures and burdens of life by demanding more of ourselves than is possible. Better to just know what is conditioned already. After all, the kilesa have been accumulated for so many aeons and we all have our particular ‘trigger buttons’ for dosa (aversion) and other unwholesome states. Indeed, I can relate to yours very easily;-( I’m glad to read your reminders about appreciating that the test or the ‘burning’ is only ever at the present moment and this is only ever the chance for practice. As Eath said: “Cut off any hope for results and just do the right thing.” ‘Doing the right thing’, as I understand, may just be a moment of understanding and being aware of the kilesa conditoned now. Rob M talked about the wishing and hoping in his meditation practice. Understanding and accepting the wishing helps a lot. If one kids oneself there’s no wishing, how can it ever be known? Sometimes it may seem that there’s no progress and the kilesa are as prevalent as ever. Thinking like this and minding, shows the wishing and clinging again. As we’ve read in the suttas, like the one about the hen sitting on the eggs*, the results will come in spite of and not because of the wishing. As Rob K just hinted, the more subtle expectation or idea of a suitable time for practice can slip in very easily and only sati and panna can know it and see how it takes one away from the present moment and present reality. Anyway, I hope by now, you’re all enjoying some pleasant experiences as well. As Jon said, we seldom complain about the attachment at these times or regret the lost opportunities for practice when life is going as we like;-) Perhaps one day, you’ll write a good film script of your lives, Erik. Meanwhile, I always appreciate that no matter how trying life is for you, you always find time to wish us and all others well and free from suffering. Best wishes as always and of course there is 'burning' at each moment: "Just as a man whose clothes or turban are on fire would apply his utmost zeal and energy, effort and exertion, as well as mindfulness and clear comprehension, so that he may extinguish the fire; even so, the monk should apply his utmost zeal and energy...for the abandoning of those evil, unwholesome qualities.” (‘Self Examination’, AN, Bk of Tens,51, B.Bodhi transl) ***** Sarah ==== *http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html 16179 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Today's Class Hi Rob M and other 'light' posters, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > I presented the discussion of 'visible object' and 'light' in class > as an unresolved issue. ..... I know this is no longer a concern for you until next year's lecture on rupas;-), but I meant to add one more comment to all the others: In brief, I think there are two uses of light in your comments: 1. Light as referred to in the texts as a condition for seeing refers to 'aloka' (light) as Jim and I discussed, as in sunlight and acting as decisibe support condition. You can read about other decisive support conditions for the other kinds of sense experiencing. 2. Light as referring to visible object as in 'light and dim'. Nina pointed out the passages in the Atthasalini (transl p415 f). Visible object is just what is seen and of course what is seen may be light, dim, like this or like that - just as it is. As people have pointed out, even when it's dark, if our eyes are open there may be visible objects appearing. "Thus all visible objects, though of different sorts, such as blue-green etc, are not specifically divided as regards their characteristics etc. For all this matter has the characteristic of striking the eye, the function or property of being in the relation of object to visual cognition, the manifestation of being the field of visual cognition, the proximate cause of the four great essentials." In other words, as soon as we start talking about seeing 'light' or 'colours' or 'shapes' or anything other than just visible object, just that which is seen, ideas and concepts start to be introduced. This is not to suggest that with mindfulness, visible object is any different from when it is seen without mindfulness. As soon as there is an idea of physics or particles/photons, it is not awareness of visible object as seen at this moment. Physics can never help the development of awareness. Sound makes the list, by the way, because it is the rupa which is heard. Again, whether it is high or low or loud or soft, it is just sound, heard by hearing consciousness. Of course there have to be different sounds, otherwise there would be no conditions for thinking about different concepts and no way of managing or living. ..... >The class was a little fast paced, because I > wanted to cover all 28 rupas in one class. I think it came across as > a little technical, not one of the more interesting classes as it > was difficult to relate much of the material to daily life. .... Everything we find so important in life and hold so dear just depends on the vipaka cittas experiencing rupas through the sense doors. Like in Erik's account, there is a short moment of seeing visible object or hearing sound and then all the ideas about what has been seen or heard and the attachments and aversions on their account. Sudying more about rupas can be a condition to understand more about anatta and the value of guarding the sense doors. Thankyou for letting us know about your lecture and project for printing of books by the class. Sarah ===== 16180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 10:01am Subject: Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no. 3 Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no. 3 We can verify the characteristic of viriya by the following explanation of the ³Expositor² about the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya: Viriya is the state of a courageous or energetic man, or it is the action of the energetic, or it is that which should be effected, carried out by method or suitable means. From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty (indriya) in the sense of predominance. Or, it exercises government with the characteristic of grasp. Combined with ³faculty² there is the compound: ²energy-faculty². Its characteristic is strengthening, and grasp, or support. When there is viriya, someone has the courage to speak, to say what is right, or to act in a wholesome way, not being afraid of trouble, difficulties, or even of losing possessions and becoming poor. This is the characteristic of viriya. Or someone has the courage to explain with regard to the Dhamma the causes which bring their appropriate effects, without paying attention to the fact that he will not be liked by foolish people, or that others will have wrong understanding of his good intention. Someone who is courageous will do what is right with regard to worldly matters as well as Dhamma, because Dhamma is Dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the truth. All people have viriya, but if the Dhamma had not been taught the characteristic and the different aspects of viriya could not be known. Viriya has been explained as controlling faculty, indriya, because it is predominant as a support for the conascent dhammas. Whenever kusala citta arises and someone performs an action with patience and diligence, there is viriya cetasika which gives support at such a moment. One can perform one¹s task without becoming disheartened. As we read in the definition of the controlling faculty, the indriya, of viriya, its characteristic is strengthening and giving support. If one develops paññå one is supported by viriya so that one does not decline from the development of paññå and all kusala dhammas. The ³Expositor²(120) uses the simile of an old house that is strengthened and supported by new pillars. Evenso, when someone is supported by viriya, kusala dhammas will not decline in him. If someone at this moment is bored, lazy, drowsy or disheartened, he should know that he is like an old building that is dilapidated, because he is not able to be firm in kusala and to apply himself to it. Viriya cetasika has the characteristic of strengthening and supporting just as a pillar supports an old house so that it is stable. Thus we see the characteristic of support of viriya. The ³Expositor² uses several similes so that we can understand the characteristic of viriya cetasika that arises at this moment. We read in the ³Expositor² (121): As a small army going to battle might be repulsed; then they would tell the king. The king would send a strong reinforcement. The king¹s army, being thus supported, would defeat the hostile army. Thus energy does not allow associated states to recede, to retreat; it uplifts, supports them. Hence has it been said that energy has the characteristic of supporting. 16181 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 1:34pm Subject: Dukkha - suffering Dear Group, Sometimes, I think, we can become de-sensitised to real meaning in life by the use of Buddhist terms .... Sometimes Pali serves to 'sanitise' the pain, ugliness and evil of the world. We talk in generalities about 'everything' being dukkha suffering, and this can serve to keep it at a distance, we intellectualise it, and make it just a topic for discussion, with quote and counter quote. But what does it matter what someone said two thousand years ago, or eight hundred years ago? They don't live here and now with our set of conditions, our capabilities for destruction, our selfish, petty indifference to others. Usually I have difficulty with comprehending anatta - but just lately I'm troubled by the immensity of Suffering, the suffocating despair that overwhelms many, the senseless ever growing evil and violence that permeates societies. Usually, I have hope for the individuals I try to serve - I once found it easy to have compassion, it just naturally arose for all, perpetrator or victim. But lately, I feel like that person with their finger in the hole in the dyke, trying to keep the open sea from engulfing the town. I wonder why with such organised, educated, regulated societies suffering, stupidity, cruelty and hatred grows. You know - mostly just calling the events behind pain and suffering 'a story' doesn't work for me, mostly reminders that there is really 'no-one' who is suffering, or that if the 'no-one' actually 'thinks' they are suffering they have inherited the consequences of their own previous kamma - just seems like a 'blame the victim' game. Saying the pain only exist for a billionth of a second isn't comprehendible, and sometimes feels like mental gymnastics - physical or mental agony lasts, it doesn't need to be cultivated, it doesn't only result from deliberating about it. Bhikkhu Bodhi says that the great affirmation of the Buddha is the teaching that Suffering can be totally overcome. (But not quickly or easily it seems). The first Truth is to be understood. The second Truth is to be abandoned. The third Truth is to be realised. The fourth Truth is to be developed. But the talk is of aeons .... The talk is of the rarity of human birth, and the fewness of the chances, the very high likelihood of slipping back ... it seems we are in a trap and there are only two choices, give up or continue the grinding, endless effort to free ourselves. So far, this slight understanding of the First Truth is just a crushing burden ... where is there comfort and consolation in Buddhism? There seems to be no Buddhist equivalent to the balm of Christian solace in ... "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30 metta, Christine 16182 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:53pm Subject: Way 11, Comm "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on "This is the only way, o bhikkus." In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. Regarding "the only way" there is the following account of a discussion that took place long ago. The Elder Tipitaka Culla Naga said: "The Way of Mindfulness-arousing (as expounded in our Discourse) is the (mundane) preliminary part (of the Eightfold Way)." His teacher the Elder Culla Summa said: "The Way is a mixed one (a way that is both mundane and supramundane)." The pupil: "Reverend Sir, it is the preliminary part." The teacher: "Friend, it is the mixed Way." As the teacher was insistent, the pupil became silent. They went away without coming to a decision. On the way to the bathing place the teacher considered the matter. He recited the Discourse. When he came to the part where it is said: "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years," he concluded that after producing the consciousness of the Supramundane Path there was no possibility of continuing in that state of mind for seven years, and that his pupil, Culla Naga, was right. On that very day, which happened to be the eighth of the lunar fortnight, it was the elder Culla Naga's turn to expound the Dhamma. When the exposition was about to begin, the Elder Culla Summa went to the Hall of Preaching and stood behind the pulpit. After the pupil had recited the preliminary stanzas the teacher spoke to the pupil in the hearing of others, saying, "Friend, Culla Naga." The pupil heard the voice of his teacher and replied: "What is it, Reverend Sir?" The teacher said this: "To say, as I did, that the Way is a mixed one is not right. You are right in calling it the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing." Thus the Elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked as though it were a bundle of sugar-cane. They took up what was rational; they gave up what was not. Thereupon, the pupil, realising that on a point on which experts of the Dhamma like his learned teacher had floundered, fellows of the holy life in the future were more likely to be unsure, thought: "With the authority of a citation from the Discourse-collection, I will settle this question." Therefore, he brought out and placed before his hearers the following statement from the Patisambhida Magga: "The preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness-arousing is called the only way."[8] And, in order to elaborate just that and to show of which path or way the instruction in our Discourse is the preliminary part, he further quoted the following also from the Patisambhida Magga: "The Excellent Way is the Eightfold way; four are truths; dispassion is the best of things belonging to the wise; besides that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision. Walk along that Way so that you may confound Death, and put an end to suffering."[9] -------------- Footnotes: 8. Not found in the Patisambhida Magga. 9. Not found in the Patisambhida Magga; these are verses 273-275 of the Dhammapada. 16183 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Jim and all, It occured to me that in english "way" has two meanings: method and path. And in the vajrayana "yana" is usually translated as "vehicle", meaning the vehicle that traverses the path. Therefore could this plausibly mean that whatever path is taken (jhana or dry insight, for example), satipatthana is the vehicle (basic technique?) employed? Could this even be extended to imply that satipatthana is what is "samma" (right) about each of the "folds" in the 8-fold path? Larry ----------------- Jim: ""One way, monks, is this path" sounds alright to me. In the Tipitaka 'ekaayano' (eka+ayana) usually occurs in association with the four satipatthanas and the commentary here says that there is only one way, not two. However, from a look at the Asankhatasamyutta (SN XLIII) one gets the impression that there are many paths leading to nibbaana including satipatthana. It's somewhat confusing." 16184 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi all, Could someone explain this piece of the commentary (#11)? I'm just not getting it. thanks, Larry 16185 From: Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/9/02 4:36:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > Sometimes, I think, we can become de-sensitised to real meaning in > life by the use of Buddhist terms .... Sometimes Pali serves > to 'sanitise' the pain, ugliness and evil of the world. We talk in > generalities about 'everything' being dukkha suffering, and this can > serve to keep it at a distance, we intellectualise it, and make it > just a topic for discussion, with quote and counter quote. But what > does it matter what someone said two thousand years ago, or eight > hundred years ago? They don't live here and now with our set of > conditions, our capabilities for destruction, our selfish, petty > indifference to others. > Usually I have difficulty with comprehending anatta - but just lately > I'm troubled by the immensity of Suffering, the suffocating despair > that overwhelms many, the senseless ever growing evil and violence > that permeates societies. Usually, I have hope for the individuals I > try to serve - I once found it easy to have compassion, it just > naturally arose for all, perpetrator or victim. > But lately, I feel like that person with their finger in the hole in > the dyke, trying to keep the open sea from engulfing the town. I > wonder why with such organised, educated, regulated societies > suffering, stupidity, cruelty and hatred grows. You know - mostly > just calling the events behind pain and suffering 'a story' doesn't > work for me, mostly reminders that there is really 'no-one' who is > suffering, or that if the 'no-one' actually 'thinks' they are > suffering they have inherited the consequences of their own previous > kamma - just seems like a 'blame the victim' game. Saying the pain > only exist for a billionth of a second isn't comprehendible, and > sometimes feels like mental gymnastics - physical or mental agony > lasts, it doesn't need to be cultivated, it doesn't only result from > deliberating about it. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you here, Christine. Suffering is the core of our life, and should be clearly seen, without sanitizing. We don't always see that unless we look carefully and note that even what is pleasant is ultimately unsatisfactory. And REAL suffering is never very far away. Disappointments of all sorts beset us. Friends and loved ones get sick and die! The loss is enormous and terrible. Unless we are saints, we cannot escape the enormity of suffering. This is why the Dhamma is so desperately important! ------------------------------------------------------- > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says that the great affirmation of the Buddha is the > teaching that Suffering can be totally overcome. (But not quickly or > easily it seems). The first Truth is to be understood. The second > Truth is to be abandoned. The third Truth is to be realised. The > fourth Truth is to be developed. But the talk is of aeons .... The > talk is of the rarity of human birth, and the fewness of the chances, > the very high likelihood of slipping back ... it seems we are in a > trap and there are only two choices, give up or continue the > grinding, endless effort to free ourselves. > So far, this slight understanding of the First Truth is just a > crushing burden ... where is there comfort and consolation in > Buddhism? There seems to be no Buddhist equivalent to the balm of > Christian solace in ... > "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I > will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; > for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto > your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew > 11:28-30 > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here I disagree. In my opinion. the Dhamma has something going for it that makes it superior, namely *the truth*. And there is more to be said: Yes, the talk is of aeons. But aeons have already passed! We are now practicing the Dhamma. That is already auspicious and bodes well for "good" births. And an awakening can come at any time!! Just as the Mahayanists say that the poor beggar approaching us could be Manjushri, the bodhisattva of wisdom, or Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva of compassion, and the Jewish Cabbalists and Chassids say that that very same beggar could be the prophet Elijah about to announce the coming of the Messiah, the Elders of the Dhamma tell us that AT ANY TIME, conditions may be right to lead us directly into joyous liberation and to the *true* peace that passeth understanding. And meanwhile, right here and now, the jhanas are available to us, if we but put in the time and effort, as more than mere pleasant abidings and safe havens. These are as real as any Christian peace, and short of nibbana, the jhanas are the quintessence of joy and peace. Also, while final release *may* be far off, treading the Buddha's path brings a peace and wisdom even now that is not possible by other means. We shouldn't despair, I think, but should be grateful for having had the opportunity to come across the Dhamma in this auspicious human life of ours, and we should make the most of it. Now is the time, I think, to do all we can: to train under a kalyanamitta who has gone far if possible, and, as best we can, and however we can, to persevere in our practice. --------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16186 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi Christine, Do I detect possum-stirring? --------- > ... it seems we are in a trap and there are only two choices, give up or continue the grinding, endless effort to free ourselves. > ------------------ Yes, while we are not seeing the middle way (which is often), we are caught up in these two extremes. -------------------------- > So far, this slight understanding of the First Truth is just a crushing burden > --------------------- By "so far," I take you to mean "before taking into account the middle way." I'm not sure it is helpful to contemplate dukkha in isolation from the Way out. ---------------------- > where is there comfort and consolation in Buddhism? > ---------------------- What could be better than satipatthana? But then you're not talking about that are you; I think you are putting forward the case for the worldling would-be disciple. It's tough for us but it's ignorance and craving, not Buddhism, that makes it tough. ------------------ > There seems to be no Buddhist equivalent to the balm of Christian solace > ----------------- Our fragile grasp of the truth, merely intellectual though it may be, is far superior to the wishful thinking of religion. Even when we are down in the dumps, you and I don't turn to an unseen god -- we stick with our Dhamma study. We must find some comfort in it :-) Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, Ken H 16187 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. Dear Jim, Your comments always encourage me to consider more: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > instead of the commentaries. .... I was a little interested and a little concerned when I read this - concerned as I wondered if the dictionaries are now not being guided by the commentaries when in doubt. Which is the sutta Norman refers to and is it possible that there are the two meanings (dep. on context) or even a play on the word? I’ve just done a very little checking of my own. In the Atthasalini transl, as we’re used to, we’re given ‘not floating away’ and the sub-commentary note which Rob M added recently of “Not allowing any loating away, as of a pumpkin in a stream. It does not suffer the object to slip, but keeps it steady as a rock.” In the Netti transl.by Nanamoli we are given this footnote: “ ‘Apilaapana -non-floating away’:Not as in PED for all Netti and similar refs. The word is the same as the abstract form apiilapanataa (i.e, a+pilaapana+taa:see PED) and is glossed by NettiA with ogaahana. the root is plu (to swim or float), not lap; see PED pilovati, and also CPD. Mindfulness is regarded as keeping in mind ‘anchored’ on its object and preventing it from ‘floating away’ from it.” I find a similar explanation in IB Horner’s Qus of K.Milinda for sati. ***** I’ve just been pulling out a map and a history book on India to locate the Kuru country, having been given clues in the footnote to Way 10. It seems the area is a little to the north of Delhi and I think a little cooler than Delhi in summer and milder than places like Dehra Dun and Simla (further north) in winter. (end of geography lesson;-)) It was interesting how the Kuru people came to be here and as we read, were already ‘earnest’ in sati in ‘their daily life’, including the servants. I think this is an important comment in understanding how or why these people were ‘ripe’ or ‘selected’ to hear the details. ***** “One way, monks, is this path”. The Kurus would have appreciated that the path “proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other” as when we are told the Buddha declared “Subhadda, only in this doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found.” Satipatthana is the only way or single way for realizing the 4 Noble Truths. I don’t agree with B.Bodhi’s comment that Larry quoted about it referring to a direct way as opposed to an ‘approach to meditative attainment that proceeds through the jhanas....’. I’m not surprised there isn’t any canonical support for this idea. Whether jhanas are attained or not, satipatthana and the development of insight is ‘the only way’ to full liberation or nibbana. Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to as being ‘somewhat confusing’ in this light.I don’t read there being many paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, Faculties, Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I agree that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather misleading. This is why I don’t think suttas can be taken ‘on their own’. I really appreciate your comments on Soma’s translation and was intrigued by the comment about the part misssed out with regard to the parrot.Could the Kuru pets really develop satipatthana? Don’t we read elsewhere that it’s impossible in the animal realms? I was expecting Christine to take great joy in this comment;-) I’m really interested to hear more sometime. Did he hear about satipatthana from the Mahatheri? It must be highly exceptional. I hope one day there is a complete translation. Many thanks indeed for your contributions like this. Sarah ==== 16188 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, You asked about the commentary (#11). I think it’s clear that by ‘way’ is meant ‘path’ and not vehicle or technique. It refers to the 5fold or 8fold path and to the development of satipatthana. The development of satipathana leads to the various levels of insight and eventually to the first realization of nibbana by the sotapanna. The last segment (#10) indicated that it is the mundane rather than the supramundane Path which is being referred to in the sutta and refers to ‘repetition of practice’. The two Elders in this extract discuss this point and the ‘pupil’ turns out to be right and introduces suttas to show there is only one way ‘for the purifying of vision’ and so on. In other words, there is only one way to realize the 4 Noble Truths and that is by the following the mundane path of satipatthana (until sotapatti magga). Btw, panna must accompany satipatthana. As we read, “All these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness.” Initially, as we’ve discussed before, panna has to know different namas and rupas before the tri-lakkhana can be known. This is why there are stages of insight. Hope this helps. It’s rather rushed. Let me know if you disagree of have another interpretation. Sarah ==== 16189 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, Just another quick note. In the earlier section (#10), we were told that some people take the ‘ekayana’ to refer to “One goes to Nibbana once”. It explained this is ‘not proper’ as the ‘Way’ here does not refer to the supramundane Way, but refers to ‘many a going on it’ and repeated satipatthana. By Supramundane Way, I take it that the lokuttara cittas (one lokuttara magga at each of the 4 stages) are being referred to. In the next section, we are given an example of this misunderstanding when Elder Culla Summa suggests the Way refers to lokiya (mundane) and lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. Later he realizes this must be wrong because of the reference to 7 years. (A lokuttara citta only occurs once). So obviously the lokuttara cittas are not being referred to.Hope this has clarified rather than confused further. Sarah 16190 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Dear Rob M, Nina & Rob K, Many thanks Nina for the commentary notes to the Sekha Sutta (M53.16) which Rob M quoted from and also to Rob K for your helpful additional comments. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I checked my Thai edition of the Co to the sutta: the Papa~ncasuudanii. > The words: discrimination, remembering, recollecting what he has done and said long > ago.> .... Rob M, the way I think this should be read is something like: ‘He is mindful, possessed with the highest mindfulness and discrimination, having remembered (or conditioned by remembering) and having recollected what he has done and said long ago.’ In other words, previous wholesome deeds and states and reflection on these is the condition for mindfulness now. We see how the Buddha reflects on and brings to mind the paramis developed over countless lives in the past. As Nina’s note showed, the reference is to wisdom with discrimination which knows and understands kusala at the highest level. ..... > The Co goes on: < the words done long ago (carikata.mpi): the > development of > the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the > duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others > do > long ago, through bodily action.> > N: See Vis. IV, 60: these include also duties to teachers, to visitors, > etc. > The CO: himself has spoken or others have spoken long ago.> The Co gives > examples of > extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc. > The words remembering and recollecting are explained in English in my > PTs > edition: saritaa, remembering once, and anusaritaa, remembering again > and > again. > The Co speaks again about kamma through body and speech, explaining that > kamma through the body done long ago, means, through body-intimation ( > the > rupa which is kayavi~n~natti) and kamma through speech, done long ago, > means, through speech-intimation (the rupa which is vaci-vi~n~natti). It > explains that there are ruupa, citta and cetasika, thus, rupa dhammas > and > arupa dhammas: there should be awareness of them as: they arise thus, > they > fall away thus. Here sati as factor of enlightenment has been explained, > according to the co. It states that by this kind of sati the ariyan > disciple > knows: because > there can be awareness often.> .... Awareness has to be aware over and over again (saritaa, the name of Ivan & Ell’s daughter). Sati and other wholesome states and deeds now may be the basis for recollection in the future. This doesn’t mean that the characteristic of sati is recollecting the past. Its characteristic is that of ‘presenting or illuminating the object’ - this is the ‘faculty of mindfulness’. ‘It does not fluctuate on account of negligence - this is ‘strength of mindfulness’. ‘Right mindfulness’ is irreversible, emancipating, moral mindfulness’. (Atthasalini transl p.195). As Rob K said: > We may wonder why inisight is not strong now, why genuine sati does > not apear as often as avijja or self clinging. The answer must be that > the conditions have not been accumulated... and >So many little things that need to become habitual to support the > development of insight. If these are not our habits now this may be > because they were not our habits in past times. Perhaps we are stingy, > or hold grudges - and yet still hope for insight to arise. And sure, it > can...but also possibly there is needed preliminary work on a moment to > moment, daily basis to support satipatthana. ..... Many thanks indeed, Rob M for all the fine points you raise and to Nina and Rob K for helping to clarify this point for me. Sarah p.s. perhaps any of the pali scholars will let us know if the re-phrasing at the beginning is not possible. ===== 16191 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering Dear Christine, Just a couple of comments on one question only to add to Howard’s and Ken’s helpful ones. I hope others will add more. >But what > does it matter what someone said two thousand years ago, or eight > hundred years ago? They don't live here and now with our set of > conditions, our capabilities for destruction, our selfish, petty > indifference to others. .... From Perfections (6-3) we read “Dhamma is dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the turth.”In other words, whether we ‘get it’ or not, whether anyone ‘gets it’ or not, it is the truth of the nature of life. And from the Satipatthana commentary I just read now: “Whose mind perceiving life’s last dying out vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.” ***** The problems we experience and see all around us - the suffering, the greed, the hatred, the destruction and so on, are no different from those that have always been experienced and always will. There is only one Way. This Way, the development of satipatthana, is the highest ‘good’ and a condition for all other kinds of ‘good’ to be understood and performed as well. At times of wisdom or other wholesome states, there is no ‘crushing burden’, but lightness and ease and lack of concern for one’s own lot. You may also find it helpful to review the 3 kinds of dukkha (see Useful Posts). Of course the unhappiness, the pain, old age, suffering and death are part of life. There is also the meaning of dukkha referring to change and the ‘ultimate’ meaning, as in the 1st Noble Truth, referring to the impermanent and thereby unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned realities. As it has repeatsed several times already in the Satipathana sutta commentary extracts, the truth is deep, very deep. I realise these brief comments are probably not very helpful for you at this time, but I’m glad you can honestly ask the questions of real concern to yourself and many others here. ‘Appreciate’ as Num would say. metta, Sarah ======= 16192 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali 'abhi' = Greek 'epi'?: To Jim Dear Jim You wrote. "according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this instead of the commentaries." I wonder which sutta K.R. Norman was using to back up his argument. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Howard, It's possible that the Greek epi and the Pali/Sanskrit abhi are related but according to some of my reference materials, Gk epi is related to Pali/Sanskrit api which is rarely seen used as a prefix compared to the very common abhi which is related to Gk amphi and L. ambi (which I find a little dubious). Pali has altogether 20 prefixes (upasagga-s) and you will find some of them readily matches up with Gk ones such as: pa and pro; pari and peri; sa.m and sym; upa and hypo (also hyper and L. sub). The abhi of abhidhamma is understood in two senses according to the Atthasalini: 1. superior, higher (atireka) and 2. distinguished (visi.t.tha). Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the commentaries ... Best wishes, Jim 16193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Dear Larry, see below op 09-10-2002 02:46 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w... > I've been comparing the footnotes from other translations of > Satipatthana Sutta. Here's an interesting one from B. Bodhi: > > "Though there is neither canonical nor commentarial basis for this view, > it might be maintained that satipatthana is called ekayana magga, the > direct path, to distinguish it from the approach to meditative > attainment that proceeds through the jhanas or brahmaviharas. While the > latter can lead to Nibbana, they do not do so necessarily but can lead > to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal." > > L: Why is this? I would say because panna is a necessary part of > satipatthana. N: Panna is developed through satipatthana. L: Off hand, I would > say panna is the experience of one of the three characteristics (anicca, > dukkha, anatta) as a characteristic of the object. Is this at least in > the ball park? What else do we need to know about panna and why > satipatthana invariably leads to the final goal? N: only developed panna penetrates the three characteristics. The development of panna has to begin by knowing nama and rupa. Sati is aware and panna knows the characteristics of all realities included in the four satipatthanas, the gocara or domain of panna. There is no other way, also all akusala, included in the applications of mindfulness of citta and of dhamma, have to be known as they are. For those who can attain jhana the jhanacitta is also included. The jhanalabhi, who attains jhana, cannot forego the development of insight and has to go through all stages of insight. Nina. P.S. For me personally the pace is still somewhat fast, we need time to consider: only one way, we also have to listen to Jim, his translations, and to ruminate what he says. If we keep on reading and reading, where is the time to ponder things over?What do you think? 16194 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering Hi Christine, I so empathize with you. A couple of years back, I, too, was overwhelmed by the suffering I see in this world. I feel nothing but pessimism and total despair that the world is coming to an end. Many times, I regretted bringing my children to this world, and spent my time just lying in bed, feeling hopeless. God provided me consolation that I shall be salvaged from this pain, and it was faith that keeps me living. Then I was introduced to Buddhism. It brought to me a brand new perspective of things. Buddhism striked me as a harder and more disciplinary way to get to truth. It forced me to really analyze what's going on in this world and eventually help me the comprehend the true cause of human suffering. And the understanding of anatta is the key to that understanding of the cause so that when I came to that realization, I actually found instead of despair, a calmness that arises from that understanding. And it led me to gratitude that I am living, that I am a human, and that I have the potential to be salvaged from the whirling sea of suffering while living. And it gave me hope that everyone has the potential to be salvaged (just as God has promised). Even though I may not be enlightened by the end of my life, but accumulation does occur. And I have thus made a vow to myself that I shall seek the truth, and I shall help the others to see the truth. It's not an easy way, and it takes much discipline, but the hope and the determination kept me going. There are many times in life, sometimes you just want a shoulder to cry on, and someone to turn to for solace, and God served that role. But ultimately we have to get up and continue the journey on our own to truely understand what life is telling us. And finally I think it's crucial to read the meanings behind the words. Words are invented by human beings to convey the message. However, words are not sufficient. All the writings are attempts by those with good heart trying the best they can using human tool "words" to help others see the truth they have come to realize. They are just trying to set out a footprints for others to follow so we don't get lost in the woods. But don't just look at the footprints. See what's surrounding you to get a better orientation of yourself and to experience the scenary. It's only through experience that we'll come to truth. Also, showing people truth takes teamwork by many people, some people serves as the teacher, some as translators, some as scholoars. You will find the path you will be taking by looking at yourself, understanding your inclination. You've asked me how I embrace Christianity and Buddhism. This has been my path. Hope it helps! metta, WL 16195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Munindra-ji teachings Dear Anthony and Sarah, I met M in Bodhgaya. People there were walking very slowly and I asked him why, expressing my doubts. He said that he just let people do that because they were inclined to. Indeed, he would not force anybody to do this or not to do that. Later on I met him in Holland, and we discussed my Cetasikas. Then he very much insisted that I would write about rupas as well. Indeed, this inspired me to do so. Nina. op 08-10-2002 07:54 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I think what I value most was his example of kindness, patience and > modesty and his encouragement to study and consider, rather than just > follow. > 16196 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Howard and all My answer regarding "a peaceful abiding and as a good example" is not my opinion but it is what the Buddha himself said in the suttas. Sorrow I don't have a reference handy, but its somewhere in the 4 Great Nikayas perhaps in several places. 16197 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/10/02 5:14:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Howard and all > > My answer regarding "a peaceful abiding and as a good example" is not my > opinion but it is what the Buddha himself said in the suttas. Sorrow I > don't > have a reference handy, but its somewhere in the 4 Great Nikayas perhaps in > > several places. > > =========================== Yes, you're correct, and I did realize that you weren't voicing just a personal opinion with that. I believe it is mentioned in several suttas. The Buddha taught the jhanas as a peaceful abiding here and now. But he taught that to his followers, who needed such. He, however, didn't need such a temporary peaceful abiding. He had reached the far shore. So I don't think that would account for his continuing to meditate as a Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16198 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Sarah: "Initially, as we've discussed before, panna has to know different namas and rupas before the tri-lakkhana can be known. This is why there are stages of insight." Hi Sarah, This is what I am particularly interested in. All insight knowledges are considered the domain of panna, rather than sanna or citta, correct? I'm going to try to pull together as much as I can on panna this weekend but as I recall Vism doesn't give much info. If you have any sources not covered by Vism or CMA or "Cetasikas" they would be greatly appreciated. Larry 16199 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Nina: "Sati is aware and panna knows the characteristics of all realities included in the four satipatthanas, the gocara or domain of panna." Hi Nina, What is involved in knowing the characteristics of realities? thanks, Larry