16200 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Way 12, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued Sattanam visuddhiya = "For the purification of beings." For the cleansing of beings soiled by the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity after abandoning mental taints. By way of physical taints, however, there is no cleansing of impurities taught in the Dhamma. By the Great Seer it was not said That through bodily taints men become impure, Or by the washing of the body they become pure. By the Great Seer it was declared That through mental taints men become impure, And through the cleansing of the mind they become pure. Accordingly it is said: "Mental taints soil beings; mental cleansing sanctifies them."[10] Sokaparidevanam samatikkamaya = "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation." If this Way is developed it will lead to the casting out of sorrow similar to that experienced by the Minister Santati, and the casting out of lamentation similar to that of Patacara. With analytical knowledge did Santati reach arahantship after hearing this stanza: Purge out the things belonging to the past; Let there be naught in the world to rise in future times. If what's twixt past and future you don't grasp, You will be one who wanders forth serene.[11] Patacara reached the fruition of the first stage of arahantship after hearing the following: For one who is by death oppressed there is No safety seen in children, father, friends Or others close to one. A shelter true Amongst one's kinsfolk one does never find.[12] Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. [Tika] For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Dukkha domanassanam atthangamaya = "For the destruction of suffering and grief." For the cessation of bodily suffering and mental grief. This way maintained by contemplation is conducive to the destruction of suffering similar to that of the Elder Tissa, and of grief similar to that of Sakka. Tissa, the head of a family at Savatthi, renouncing forty crores of gold, became a homeless one, and dwelt in a forest far from other human beings. His sister-in-law sent a robber band of five hundred to scour the forest in order to find him, and ordered them to kill him when he was found. [Tika] She sent him, it is said, in five batches of a hundred each in succession. After entering the forest and searching for the elder they in due course came to the place in which he lived and sat round him. When the robbers surrounded him, the elder spoke thus: "Lay disciples, why have you come?" They replied: "To kill you." Then the elder said: "On a security, give me my life for just this one night." Said the robbers: "O recluse, who will stand surety for you in a place like this?" The elder, thereupon, took a big stone, broke the bones of his legs and said: "Lay disciples, is the security of value?" They, leaving the elder, went to the end of the ambulatory and lighting a fire lay on the ground. The elder contemplating on the purity of his conduct, after suppressing his pain, attained arahantship, at dawn, having fulfilled the recluse's regimen in the three watches of the night. Giving expression to his feelings he said: "A surety let me raise breaking both my legs: To die with lustful mind I loathe and shrink. Having thought thus I saw things as they are, And with the dawn I reached the arahant's domain." There is another story. Thirty bhikkhus taking the subject of meditation from the Blessed One went into residence, during the rains, in a forest-dwelling, agreeing amongst themselves to practice the duty of the recluse, during all the three watches of the night, and to avoid one another's presence. One by one those monks who began to doze early in the morning after doing the recluse's duty during the three watches of the night were carried away by a tiger. Not one of those carried away did even utter the words: "I am taken by a tiger." When thus fifteen bhikkhus had been devoured, on uposatha day (the day of the Meeting of the Order for recitation of the Rules), after it was asked (by the elder) "Friends, where are the others?" and it became known that they had been devoured by a tiger. It was agreed that anyone seized by the tiger, thereafter, should utter the words: "I am taken." Then a certain young bhikkhu was seized by the tiger in the same circumstances in which the others were seized earlier. That young bhikkhu said: "Tiger, Reverend Sir." The other bhikkhus carrying sticks and torches went in pursuit of the tiger. The tiger, having taken the young bhikkhu up to a rocky place, a broken edge over a hollow spot inaccessible to the bhikkhus, began to devour its prey from the feet upwards. The pursuing bhikkhus said: "Good man, there is nothing that can be done by us. The extraordinary spiritual attainment of bhikkhus is to be seen in such a place (as that in which you are)." That bhikkhu, even prostrate in the tiger's mouth, suppressed his pain and developing the wisdom of insight attained the four paths and fruits of sanctitude together with analytical knowledge. Then he uttered this ecstatic utterance:- Virtuous was I keeping to my vows And wise with growing insight was my mind That had to concentration well attained. Yet, because I slacked for just a while, A tiger took my frame of flesh and blood. Unto a hill and then my mind did quake. Devour me as you please, o tiger, eat This body of mine which is bereft of thought; Within the thought of quiet strongly held A blessing will my death become to me. ------------------- Footnotes: 10. Samyutta Nikaya iii, page 151, P.T.S. Edition. The verse which precedes this passage here resembles a saying attributed to the Poranas in Adikaram's Early History of Buddhism in Ceylon, Appendix II.A, page xxii, quotation 77. 11. Sutta Nipata verse 949. 12. Dhammapada verse 288. 16201 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Nina: "For me personally the pace is still somewhat fast, we need time to consider: only one way, we also have to listen to Jim, his translations, and to ruminate what he says. If we keep on reading and reading, where is the time to ponder things over?What do you think?" Hi Nina, I agree, but I was worrying that some may be impatient with spending so much time on a few words. Instead of posting for four days in the week I could cut it down to three days. Or I could make shorter posts but it is easy to lose context that way. What's the view out there? Suggestions always welcome. Larry 16202 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm. "That bhikkhu, even prostrate in the tiger's mouth, suppressed his pain and developing the wisdom of insight attained the four paths and fruits of sanctitude together with analytical knowledge. Then he uttered this ecstatic utterance:-" Hi all, What is "analytical knowledge" here? thanks, Larry 16203 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Hi Larry, I would vote for fewer words and less frequently. The way I see it, people are either really into this subject or they really don't care. I want to go through this slowly and savour each mouthful. Work or class preparation ties me up for a few days and I get behind. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "For me personally the pace is still somewhat fast, we need time > to consider: only one way, we also have to listen to Jim, his > translations, and to ruminate what he says. If we keep on reading and > reading, where is the time to ponder things over?What do you think?" > > Hi Nina, > > I agree, but I was worrying that some may be impatient with spending so > much time on a few words. Instead of posting for four days in the week I > could cut it down to three days. Or I could make shorter posts but it is > easy to lose context that way. What's the view out there? Suggestions > always welcome. > > Larry 16204 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Sarah, So would it be correct to say that a magga citta is something other than satipatthana? Larry -------------- Sarah: "Hi Larry, Just another quick note. In the earlier section (#10), we were told that some people take the 'ekayana' to refer to "One goes to Nibbana once". It explained this is 'not proper' as the 'Way' here does not refer to the supramundane Way, but refers to 'many a going on it' and repeated satipatthana. By Supramundane Way, I take it that the lokuttara cittas (one lokuttara magga at each of the 4 stages) are being referred to. In the next section, we are given an example of this misunderstanding when Elder Culla Summa suggests the Way refers to lokiya (mundane) and lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. Later he realizes this must be wrong because of the reference to 7 years. (A lokuttara citta only occurs once). So obviously the lokuttara cittas are not being referred to.Hope this has clarified rather than confused further. Sarah" 16205 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:19pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi Christine, You might want to read, "Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.buddhistinformation.com/guardians_of_the_world.htm I summarized it as part of my class notes on Hiri and Ottappa, but you may want to read the entire essay. Recently, I was listening to a CD by Ajan Bram (based in Perth), and he talked about Ajan Chah's advice to those who do counseling. He said that you must be like a garbage pail and allow everybody to dump their suffering into you (lightening their load). But he said that it was critical that you be like a garbage pail with a hole in the bottom, so that none of the suffering says inside of you. You have to let it go. Ajan Bram mentioned that one the devotees at his temple did not follow this advice and ended up committing suicide; she had no real problems of her own, but could not let go of other people's suffering. Christine, I a very concerned about you. I understand that your job is to listen to horrible things. I can understand that what you hear conditions a lot of dosa (aversion). The nature of aversion is like a red-hot iron rod; if you pick it up, you burn yourself. Burning yourself is not good for you, nor is it good for the people you are tyring to help. Think of those horrible things as hot iron rods. Whomever handles them will get burned. I know that Freud believed that by getting things out in the open, it would help to cure the patient. So "dumping their hot iron rods inside your garbage pail" may be good for your patients. You must have a hole in the bottom of your garbage pail, otherwise you may end up needing more counseling than your patients. With Metta, Rob M :-) 16206 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, Magga cittas are very different from satipatthana. Throughout one's countless lifetimes, one will only ever experience four magga cittas. The first magga citta occurs at that instant when you become an sotapanna. The function of this citta is to uproot all conditions that may cause one to fall into the four woeful states. It also uproots any conditions associated with envy, selfishess, sceptical doubt (and a few others). This first magga citta is followed by some fruit (phala) cittas. Similarly, one will experience a magga citta when one becomes a Sakadagami, again when one becomes an Anagami and finally when one becomes an Arahant. Together the magga cittas and the phala cittas are classified as supramundane. Sometimes the four magga cittas and the four phala cittas are further classified according to the level of jhana achieved (1st to 5th). In this way, the number of supramundane cittas increases from 8 to 40. This is why the number of cittas can be either 89 or 121. Sarah, sorry for butting in. Please feel free to add more. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > So would it be correct to say that a magga citta is something other than > satipatthana? > > Larry > -------------- > > Sarah: "Hi Larry, > Just another quick note. In the earlier section (#10), we were told that > some people take the 'ekayana' to refer to "One goes to Nibbana once". > It explained this is 'not proper' as the 'Way' here does not refer to > the supramundane Way, but refers to 'many a going on it' and repeated > satipatthana. By Supramundane Way, I take it that the lokuttara cittas > (one lokuttara magga at each of the 4 stages) are being referred to. > In the next section, we are given an example of this misunderstanding > when Elder Culla Summa suggests the Way refers to lokiya (mundane) and > lokuttara (supramundane) cittas. Later he realizes this must be wrong > because of the reference to 7 years. (A lokuttara citta only occurs > once). So obviously the lokuttara cittas are not being referred to.Hope > this has clarified rather than confused further. > Sarah" 16207 From: Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Rob, Thanks for your reply on supramundane cittas. What exactly is different in them from satipatthana? No sati? no panna? no realities? Also thanks for the suggestions on posting. One thing that occured to me is that whenever someone sees a passage they want to dwell on, they could raise a red flag and we could stay put for a week. Larry 16208 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Like everyone else here, I was sorry to hear about your difficulties, but > glad to read comments like this: Sarah, Jon, Christine, and al who replied to this thread, thanks for the great, supportive comments. I have a few comments as well, which, as soon as I'm back in Thailand (tomorrow--perhaps) I can try to find some time to elaborate on a bit. As always, there are points raised here that I agree with, and some that I don't. Since agreement needs no further comment, I'll pick out a few points I question. Aw heck, just a couple of brief comments now. Regret for past misdeeds of either comission or omission are part & parcel of hiri & ottapa, and regret is an important factor when it serves the purpose of spurring one to further development, as has my regret for not having practiced as diligently as I could have (due to sheer laziness). If it hinders progress as kukucca, that is an entirely different story. That is not the case here. It is recognizing that I have made the mistake of not practicing with enough zeal to overcome the mental obstacles that have arisen in conjunction with this micro- odyssey (which began as a two-day visa run and ended up as a three- week endeavour of jumping through flaming bureaucratic hoops, inolving planes, vans, automobiles, boats, tuk-tuks, and motos, and thousands of dollars). Regarding clinging to "self" in regretting not praticing more diligently. There is not a being other than an arahat that is free from this affliction, and I do not believe it helpful at all to ignore this fact. The reality is that unless we are arahats, we have have no choice but to use the thorn of the root of grasping after I, me, mine, to crack the barrier of ignorance that falesly imputes that root of dukkha. I am interested in practical Dhamma--what works here & now. If you read the suttas, the Budha speaks conventionally in most of his sermons. Why did the Buddha spend so much time utilizing terms relating to the merely imputed notions of self if they are not important? For example, why did the Buddha talk about "generating desire, arousing persistence, upholding & exterting one's intent" for the abandonment of the unskillful and the taking up of ths skillful (sammapadana)? Was the Buddha was encouraging us to cling to self speaking in such terms? I mean, generating desire, for devas' sake! It is easy to cling to views of anatta and forget that anatta and paticcca samuppada are mutually supportive; one cannot exist without the other. In other words, the path is a delicate balancing act of finding the "sweet spot" of the Middle Way between the extremes of the annihilation view, and the extremes of the eternalist view, between excessive zeal and laziness, between ultimate reality and conventional reality, to name just a few of the Scyllas and Charybdises of extremes to be abandoned. The view that overemphasizes "all things being empty", just from observation, leads many into what I call "Zennitis"--that we can do any old thing because hey, it's all empty anyway; nothing's inherently real; I can do whatever I want! I believe this is actually a more harmful teaching than teachings dealing with conventions like conventional metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha, just for example. As is said, anatta teachings on anatta are like a venomous snake: when grasped the wrong way, they bite. Often fatally. Another quick comment (apropos of what I've now forgotten, but it's worth repeating I think). Pedaogical structure & emphasis on specific practices or areas of teaching are just as important in terms of Dhamma transmission as the content itself. The right content presented in the inapporpriate order or fashion goes against the Dhamma, even if it's a direct quote from the Tripitika. In other words, presentation of the Dhamma needs both skillful means (method) & wisdom as mutually supportive conditions for rightly understanding the Middle Way. If one peice is lacking, or presented in the inappropriate order (for the person(s) hearing the teachings), then the entire message is useless, and therefore is adhamma because it does not lead to release. On a more conventional note, we are awaiting our adopted son's passport, then a visa, then Eath and he will return from Cambodia next week, unless of course the obstacle monster comes up and upends our plans, as has happened at every turn. Opasa charan charan (or opasaa maak maak for the Thai contingent)! No matter what, thanks for the kind words. Now, back to work (on visa issues and logistics--gotta catch a flight to Phnom Penh in a couple of hours). May all here have happiness and cause of hapiness and be free from suffering and cause of suffering. Cheers, Erik 16209 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Sarah (and Suan for the sutta ref.), I left my place yesterday for a period of about 10 days or so and do not have access to my library. I will just have to make do with what I have at hand until I return. > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > instead of the commentaries. > .... > I was a little interested and a little concerned when I read this - > concerned as I wondered if the dictionaries are now not being guided by > the commentaries when in doubt. Which is the sutta Norman refers to and is > it possible that there are the two meanings (dep. on context) or even a > play on the word? Currently I don't have the article at hand so I'm just going mostly from memory. The sutta is the Sotaanugatasutta (AN IV.191) but Norman focusses on just one short sentence as follows but you have to read it in the sutta for the context: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaani pi lapanti. (he quotes from the PTS. ed. and this is how I remember it but the PTS co. reads the last 3 words as: dhammapadaapilapanti) The Burmese CSCD reading is: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaa plavanti. Thai, Sinhalese, and Cambodian edns. read pilapanti for plavanti and Norman takes it to be 'apilapanti' (they recite). I don't know how 'plavanti' would translate here as the verb isn't in the PED and one has to look it up in a Sanskrit dictionary for its varied meanings none of which seem to fit the context here. Cone has a second entry for apilaapana (a+pilaapana -- non-floating away) but you are directed to look it up under pilaapana in a volume not yet published. It is difficult to discuss this matter further without you or Suan having read Norman's article and looking up apilaapana in Cone's dictionary which refers to this article under apilapati which is how I found out about it and happened to have it. I just wanted to bring it to your attention after going over Norman's interesting article just recently for the first time so it's new to me too. It also mentions the commentarial interpretation of apilaapana. Perhaps I can summarize the article (a little over 2 pages long) when I have access to it again. The CPD follows the commentaries on apilaapana. > Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to as > being 'somewhat confusing' in this light.I don't read there being many > paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of > Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, Faculties, > Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I agree > that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather > misleading. This is why I don't think suttas can be taken 'on their own'. I once calculated that there are 1748 suttas (56x33) in this sa.myutta which only takes up a few pages. I'm reading here that there are 56 paths leading to nibbaaana (or one of its 32 synonyms). eg. samatha is a path, vipassanaa is another, the two together yet another, and so on. Perhaps the explanation (which Soma doesn't translate) in the Satipatthanasutta commentary on how the 4 satipatthanas taken together can be one path might help sort this one out. > I really appreciate your comments on Soma's translation and was intrigued > by the comment about the part misssed out with regard to the parrot.Could > the Kuru pets really develop satipatthana? Don't we read elsewhere that > it's impossible in the animal realms? I was expecting Christine to take > great joy in this comment;-) I'm really interested to hear more sometime. > Did he hear about satipatthana from the Mahatheri? It must be highly > exceptional. I hope one day there is a complete translation. I think this wonderful story is worth putting on the must translate shelf. The parrot's name was Buddharakkhita and after practising satipatthana for awhile he was seized by a predatory bird but saved by some novice nuns. The mahatheri upon asking him what he was thinking during this violent incident (he kept to the meditation subject) predicted that in the future this would be a condition for the destruction of becoming (bhavakkhaya) for him. There is also a story somewhere about bats (500 of them, I think) overhearing dhamma in a cave which turned out to be a condition in a future life for their spiritual attainments. So it seems that animals can benefit from the teachings too. Best wishes, Jim 16210 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, As I see it, satipatthana is a process. It is an activity. It is a discipline. On the other hand, a supramundane citta is a once in a lifetime (in fact, once in all lifetimes) event. Satipatthana might help you achieve a supramundane citta but it is certainly not a requirement. There were many cases in the Suttas of people attaining supramundane states (i.e. becoming an Arahant) without practising satipatthana. I hope that this helps. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Thanks for your reply on supramundane cittas. What exactly is different > in them from satipatthana? No sati? no panna? no realities? > > Also thanks for the suggestions on posting. One thing that occured to me > is that whenever someone sees a passage they want to dwell on, they > could raise a red flag and we could stay put for a week. > > Larry 16211 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi Christine, > And the understanding of anatta is the key to that > understanding of the cause so that when I came to that realization, I > actually found instead of despair, a calmness that arises from that > understanding. And it led me to gratitude that I am living, that I am a > human, and that I have the potential to be salvaged from the whirling sea > of suffering while living. And it gave me hope that everyone has the > potential to be salvaged (just as God has promised). Even though I may > not be enlightened by the end of my life, but accumulation does occur. >\+++++++++++++++ A very nice post WL. As you say accumulation of understanding does occur, and no need to measure how much or when it will be complete. And the understanding of anatta comes with calmness that is not dependent on external conditions. Robert 16212 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi all, Just want to clarify that "Dukkha" is not just meaning of suffering, stress, or anything in a negative way. Dukkha means,,, things r keep changing...bcoz of different elements (earth, water, fire, wind) changes. It implies in any of materials, and including our body and mind. For example, when we trying to order our food, u may aware how many ideas have come and gone in just one second, this is also called "Dukkha". So, we r all in "Dukkha" even when we r feeling happy! 16213 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 7:27am Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering Hi, In Buddhism, there r 2 sets of "Dukkha", one is called "8 Dukkha", the other one is called "3 Dukkha". 8 Dukkha is : "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. Illness is dukkha. 3 Dukkha is : the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness." The other way of 3 Dukkha is : 1)the suffer from our body and mind, such as hungry, feeling cold etc..2) the suffer from changing, such as situation cannot be kept as u want. 3) the suffer from all living things and material will deteriorate, like flowers will die, even a building will collapse. Wish u can understand what im trying to say... if some of u know what i mean, please help me to explain! ^_~ Paul 16214 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Musings on Children & the Dhamma Hi, Erik - In a message dated 10/11/02 1:18:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rikpa21@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Hi Erik, > > > > Like everyone else here, I was sorry to hear about your > difficulties, but > > glad to read comments like this: > > Sarah, Jon, Christine, and al who replied to this thread, thanks for > the great, supportive comments. I have a few comments as well, > which, as soon as I'm back in Thailand (tomorrow--perhaps) I can try > to find some time to elaborate on a bit. As always, there are points > raised here that I agree with, and some that I don't. Since > agreement needs no further comment, I'll pick out a few points I > question. > > Aw heck, just a couple of brief comments now. Regret for past > misdeeds of either comission or omission are part & parcel of hiri & > ottapa, and regret is an important factor when it serves the purpose > of spurring one to further development, as has my regret for not > having practiced as diligently as I could have (due to sheer > laziness). If it hinders progress as kukucca, that is an entirely > different story. That is not the case here. It is recognizing that I > have made the mistake of not practicing with enough zeal to overcome > the mental obstacles that have arisen in conjunction with this micro- > odyssey (which began as a two-day visa run and ended up as a three- > week endeavour of jumping through flaming bureaucratic hoops, > inolving planes, vans, automobiles, boats, tuk-tuks, and motos, and > thousands of dollars). > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm happy that your ordeal is mostly over! ------------------------------------------- > > Regarding clinging to "self" in regretting not praticing more > diligently. There is not a being other than an arahat that is free > from this affliction, and I do not believe it helpful at all to > ignore this fact. The reality is that unless we are arahats, we have > have no choice but to use the thorn of the root of grasping after I, > me, mine, to crack the barrier of ignorance that falesly imputes > that root of dukkha. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. I think this is important. We start where we are, not where we might hope to be. ------------------------------------------------- > > I am interested in practical Dhamma--what works here & now. If you > read the suttas, the Budha speaks conventionally in most of his > sermons. Why did the Buddha spend so much time utilizing terms > relating to the merely imputed notions of self if they are not > important? For example, why did the Buddha talk about "generating > desire, arousing persistence, upholding & exterting one's intent" > for the abandonment of the unskillful and the taking up of ths > skillful (sammapadana)? Was the Buddha was encouraging us to cling > to self speaking in such terms? I mean, generating desire, for > devas' sake! > > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well said. ------------------------------------------ > > It is easy to cling to views of anatta and forget that anatta and > paticcca samuppada are mutually supportive; one cannot exist without > the other. In other words, the path is a delicate balancing act of > finding the "sweet spot" of the Middle Way between the extremes of > the annihilation view, and the extremes of the eternalist view, > between excessive zeal and laziness, between ultimate reality and > conventional reality, to name just a few of the Scyllas and > Charybdises of extremes to be abandoned. The view that > overemphasizes "all things being empty", just from observation, > leads many into what I call "Zennitis"--that we can do any old thing > because hey, it's all empty anyway; nothing's inherently real; I can > do whatever I want! I believe this is actually a more harmful > teaching than teachings dealing with conventions like conventional > metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha, just for example. As is said, anatta > teachings on anatta are like a venomous snake: when grasped the > wrong way, they bite. Often fatally. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Such a "nothing matters because its all empty anyway" view would, indeed, be very harmful (and incorrect). Fortunately, however, I've come across no Buddhists (Zen, Theravadin, or otherwise) who seriously hold this view, and I doubt that it is widely held. ------------------------------------------------ > > Another quick comment (apropos of what I've now forgotten, but it's > worth repeating I think). Pedaogical structure & emphasis on > specific practices or areas of teaching are just as important in > terms of Dhamma transmission as the content itself. The right > content presented in the inapporpriate order or fashion goes against > the Dhamma, even if it's a direct quote from the Tripitika. In other > words, presentation of the Dhamma needs both skillful means (method) > & wisdom as mutually supportive conditions for rightly understanding > the Middle Way. If one peice is lacking, or presented in the > inappropriate order (for the person(s) hearing the teachings), then > the entire message is useless, and therefore is adhamma because it > does not lead to release. > > On a more conventional note, we are awaiting our adopted son's > passport, then a visa, then Eath and he will return from Cambodia > next week, unless of course the obstacle monster comes up and upends > our plans, as has happened at every turn. Opasa charan charan (or > opasaa maak maak for the Thai contingent)! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't understand either language used here, but would I be correct in guessing that it means "Que sera, sera!"? In any case, yes, what will be will be, but I do hope for only happy outcomes in the future. ------------------------------------------------------- > > No matter what, thanks for the kind words. Now, back to work (on > visa issues and logistics--gotta catch a flight to Phnom Penh in a > couple of hours). > > May all here have happiness and cause of hapiness and be free from > suffering and cause of suffering. > > Cheers, > Erik > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16215 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:19am Subject: Re: Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan): To Jim Dear Jim, (Sarah, and friends) Thanks for your kind information on Sutta reference. In U Hoat Sein's Pali-Myanmar Dictionary, I found "palavati" for plavati". Sanskrit root is "plu". In Sir Monier Monier-Williams' Sanskrit-English dictionary gives the meanings of 'plavate' (plu) in the first column, at the bottom of the page 715. The meanings for Pali 'plavati' and Sanskrit 'plavate' are the same. Palavati, plavati, (plavate): to float, to swim. Looking forward to the summary of RK Norman article (when you have time). With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: Dear Sarah (and Suan for the sutta ref.), I left my place yesterday for a period of about 10 days or so and do not have access to my library. I will just have to make do with what I have at hand until I return. > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of the > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in the > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back it > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, calling > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > instead of the commentaries. > .... > I was a little interested and a little concerned when I read this - > concerned as I wondered if the dictionaries are now not being guided by > the commentaries when in doubt. Which is the sutta Norman refers to and is > it possible that there are the two meanings (dep. on context) or even a > play on the word? Currently I don't have the article at hand so I'm just going mostly from memory. The sutta is the Sotaanugatasutta (AN IV.191) but Norman focusses on just one short sentence as follows but you have to read it in the sutta for the context: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaani pi lapanti. (he quotes from the PTS. ed. and this is how I remember it but the PTS co. reads the last 3 words as: dhammapadaapilapanti) The Burmese CSCD reading is: Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaa plavanti. Thai, Sinhalese, and Cambodian edns. read pilapanti for plavanti and Norman takes it to be 'apilapanti' (they recite). I don't know how 'plavanti' would translate here as the verb isn't in the PED and one has to look it up in a Sanskrit dictionary for its varied meanings none of which seem to fit the context here. Cone has a second entry for apilaapana (a+pilaapana -- non-floating away) but you are directed to look it up under pilaapana in a volume not yet published. It is difficult to discuss this matter further without you or Suan having read Norman's article and looking up apilaapana in Cone's dictionary which refers to this article under apilapati which is how I found out about it and happened to have it. I just wanted to bring it to your attention after going over Norman's interesting article just recently for the first time so it's new to me too. It also mentions the commentarial interpretation of apilaapana. Perhaps I can summarize the article (a little over 2 pages long) when I have access to it again. The CPD follows the commentaries on apilaapana. > Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to as > being 'somewhat confusing' in this light.I don't read there being many > paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of > Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, Faculties, > Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I agree > that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather > misleading. This is why I don't think suttas can be taken 'on their own'. I once calculated that there are 1748 suttas (56x33) in this sa.myutta which only takes up a few pages. I'm reading here that there are 56 paths leading to nibbaaana (or one of its 32 synonyms). eg. samatha is a path, vipassanaa is another, the two together yet another, and so on. Perhaps the explanation (which Soma doesn't translate) in the Satipatthanasutta commentary on how the 4 satipatthanas taken together can be one path might help sort this one out. > I really appreciate your comments on Soma's translation and was intrigued > by the comment about the part misssed out with regard to the parrot.Could > the Kuru pets really develop satipatthana? Don't we read elsewhere that > it's impossible in the animal realms? I was expecting Christine to take > great joy in this comment;-) I'm really interested to hear more sometime. > Did he hear about satipatthana from the Mahatheri? It must be highly > exceptional. I hope one day there is a complete translation. I think this wonderful story is worth putting on the must translate shelf. The parrot's name was Buddharakkhita and after practising satipatthana for awhile he was seized by a predatory bird but saved by some novice nuns. The mahatheri upon asking him what he was thinking during this violent incident (he kept to the meditation subject) predicted that in the future this would be a condition for the destruction of becoming (bhavakkhaya) for him. There is also a story somewhere about bats (500 of them, I think) overhearing dhamma in a cave which turned out to be a condition in a future life for their spiritual attainments. So it seems that animals can benefit from the teachings too. Best wishes, Jim 16216 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi, Rob (and Larry) - In a message dated 10/11/02 1:39:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Larry, > > As I see it, satipatthana is a process. It is an activity. It is a > discipline. > > On the other hand, a supramundane citta is a once in a lifetime (in > fact, once in all lifetimes) event. > > Satipatthana might help you achieve a supramundane citta but it is > certainly not a requirement. There were many cases in the Suttas of > people attaining supramundane states (i.e. becoming an Arahant) > without practising satipatthana. > > I hope that this helps. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > ========================= But might we correctly infer in such cases that pa~n~na bhavana occurred earlier in the present lifetime or in a previous lifetime? Now, perhaps 'ekayana magga' may mean only a *direct* path or a *single-goal* path (a one-way path), and not "the only path", but if, one way or another, it is, at end, "the only path", then it is an unavoidable sine qua non, and it must lie in the history of every arahant, whether buddha, paccekabuddha, or hearer. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16217 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Dear Larry, The discussion was about the way being both mundane and supramundane or only mundane. As I understand it, the development of satipatthana is mundane: mindfulness and understanding of all conditioned namas and rupas of our life. As regards the stages of vipassana: this begins with mundane vipassana ~naa.nas, and then after change-of-lineage-knowledge enlightenment is attained, and there is magga ~naa.na, which is lokuttara. op 10-10-2002 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Could someone explain this piece of the commentary (#11)? I'm just not > getting it. > 16218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no 4 Perfections, Energy, Ch 6, no 4 Viriya is the attendant of paññå. The Venerable Såriputta explains about the development and accumulation of the perfections leading to the complete eradication of defilements at the attainment of arahatship. We read in the ³Kåmasutta Niddesa² (Sutta explanation about Sense pleasures, Mahåniddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya): There is a simile of two cities: the city of bandits and the city of peace. At that time the thought occurred to a general, ³So long as the city of bandits exists the city of peace is not free from danger. I shall destroy the city of bandits. He put on his armor, took his sword and entered the city of bandits. He struck with his sword the post they had erected at the gate of the city. He destroyed the building and the widows of the gateway, removed the bolt, destroyed the wall and filled up the moat. Thereupon he took down the flag they had raised as a symbol of dignity of their city, and he set fire to the city. Then he entered the city of peace, ascended the castle, surrounded by his group of relatives, and he took delicious flavoured food. This is the simile. Personality belief, sakkåyaditthi (3 , can be compared to the city of bandits. Nibbåna can be compared to the city of peace. The person who applies himself to mental development can be compared to the general. He thinks, ³Personality belief is a tie and so long as I am bound by that tie I am not free from danger². Here we see that the akusala dhamma that should be eradicated first is personality belief which takes realities for self. It must be paññå which sees the difference between the city of bandits and the city of peace. The city of peace is calm, whereas the city of bandits means disturbance, confusion and restlessness. So long as there is wrong view which takes realities for self, being or person, one cannot be free from restlessness, disturbance and worry. Thus, one should understand that all defilements and dukkha are bound up with one¹s ³own person², which actually are nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. One is completely free from defilements and from dukkha when there are no more nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. This cannot be realized without courage, without the perfection of viriya. We read in the ³Exposition of Jatukaùùin¹s Questions² (Khuddaka Nikåya) that Jatukannin had heard that the Buddha was courageous and that he therefore was called a hero, víra. The following passage gives the reasons why he was called a hero. There is an association in meaning between the word víra, hero, and viriya, which is the state of a strong man. All that is said in the passage below refers to viriya cetasika. We read: He had perseverance and was therefore called a hero. He was valiant and was therefore called a hero. He caused others to persevere and was therefore called a hero. He had great capacities and was therefore called a hero. He was brave and always progressing, he was not a coward, not frightened, not fearful, he did not flee, he had eliminated fear and cowardice, he was without any terror, and thus, the Exalted One was courageous. The Exalted One was without the akusala dhammas of this world, he was beyond the suffering of hell, he was endowed with energy. The Buddha had viriya, the four right efforts, he was courageous and steadfast of mind, and therefore he was called courageous. Footnote 3. There are twenty kinds of personality belief, sakkåya ditthi, which are obtained by applying four types of that belief to each of the five khandhas: the belief to be indentical with them, to be contained in them, to be independent of them and to be the owner of them. 16219 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:12pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering/RobM Hi RobM, Thank you for your concern - I am truly sorry to be the cause of it, I should be more careful about how I express my feelings - maybe a stronger lock on the 'drafts' folder :). The situation Ajahn Bramavamso mentions is uncommon, and unless the counsellor left a note, no-one can really know why they killed themselves. Attribution of a reason by others may be incorrect. After a suicide, the most common statement is "Who would have thought it ... not Harry ... He never gave any indication, didn't seem to have any real problems, must have been because ". A little bit about 'Where I Work': We are crisis workers in an acute hospital setting, so naturally just about all situations we are asked to be involved in will be highly stressful and have recently occurred. We are mindful of each others emotional, mental and physical strengths, and there is no hesitation in telling another worker if concerns are held about how they are coping. All workers have (as a bare minimum) a four year Undergraduate degree in Social Work . Individual professional supervision sessions are held fortnightly with a Senior, and are compulsory. As a Teaching Hospital, close professional contacts are also maintained with University staff, we often laugh that it wasn't enough to graduate - we'd have to work overseas to escape our old lecturers and professors (and then, only if it wasn't in Britain.). I am formally supervised and also supervise and support others in this way. We have mental health wards within the hospital, fully staffed with Psychiatrists, Nurses and Allied Health Staff, who would come immediately for a consultation if requested by a concerned staff Supervisor. Thank you for calling me a 'garbage pail' :):) The point being made is well understood, and part of the training - but I'm sure I can use that illustration (strategically) at work next week. :) I liked the 'Guardians of the World' article by Bhikkhu Bodhi (Actually - I like anything by Bhikkhu Bodhi). Another article of his that I use as a constant support is "A Remedy for Despair" which encourages reflection on kamma and its fruits ... B.B. is 'one who knows' - "to the extent that this flowering of empathy is not a mere emotional effusion but is accompanied by a facility for accurate observation, it can easily turn into a chute plunging us down from our new-found freedom into a chasm of anguish and despair. For when, with eyes unhindered by emotively tinged blinkers, we turn to contemplate the wide expanse of the world, we find ourselves gazing into a mass of suffering that is vertiginous in its volume and ghastly in its intensity. The guarantor of our complacency is the dumb thoughtless glee with which we acquiesce in our daily ration of sensual excitation and ego-enhancing kudos. Let us raise our heads a little higher and cast our eyes about, and we behold a world steeped in pain where the ills inherent in the normal life-cycle are compounded still more by the harshness of nature, the grim irony of accident, and the cruelty of human beings." This is truth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay12.html Thanks for your kindness Rob, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > You might want to read, "Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/guardians_of_the_world.htm > > I summarized it as part of my class notes on Hiri and Ottappa, but > you may want to read the entire essay. > > Recently, I was listening to a CD by Ajan Bram (based in Perth), and > he talked about Ajan Chah's advice to those who do counseling. He > said that you must be like a garbage pail and allow everybody to > dump their suffering into you (lightening their load). But he said > that it was critical that you be like a garbage pail with a hole in > the bottom, so that none of the suffering says inside of you. You > have to let it go. Ajan Bram mentioned that one the devotees at his > temple did not follow this advice and ended up committing suicide; > she had no real problems of her own, but could not let go of other > people's suffering. > > Christine, I a very concerned about you. I understand that your job > is to listen to horrible things. I can understand that what you hear > conditions a lot of dosa (aversion). The nature of aversion is like > a red-hot iron rod; if you pick it up, you burn yourself. Burning > yourself is not good for you, nor is it good for the people you are > tyring to help. > > Think of those horrible things as hot iron rods. Whomever handles > them will get burned. I know that Freud believed that by getting > things out in the open, it would help to cure the patient. > So "dumping their hot iron rods inside your garbage pail" may be > good for your patients. You must have a hole in the bottom of your > garbage pail, otherwise you may end up needing more counseling than > your patients. > > With Metta, > Rob M :-) 16220 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:20pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering/KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, You say: "Do I detect possum-stirring?" ------------------------------------- CF--->No, KenH, not a case of stirring the possum - though possibly I would plead 'guilty as charged, Sir' to spitting the dummy .... I notice that I understand a particular area of the Dhamma, and then things happen and I realise I never really knew that area at all ... After a series of violent situations involving child patients, I started reflecting on dukkha and kamma, and reading about The Four Noble Truths. Mainly from the Suttas, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Dr. Walpola Sri Rahula, plus thought provoking replies to Eric's post. Dukkha as birth and aging leading to death, and life's disappointments, is familiar, acceptable, understandable. But it is hard to accept dukkha and kamma as part of the deliberate brutality involving children who are most helpless and without protection. It is these whose protection I strive for, but sometimes fail to secure ... ------------------------------ You say: "It's tough for us but it's ignorance and craving, not Buddhism, that makes it tough. ------------------------------- CF--> Ignorance and craving ... so much of it, so resilient, so well disguised - cut it down in one place and it almost seems to encourage further branching growth - a bit like Lantana really. ------------------------------------------- You say: Our fragile grasp of the truth, merely intellectual though it may be, is far superior to the wishful thinking of religion. Even when we are down in the dumps, you and I don't turn to an unseen god -- we stick with our Dhamma study. We must find some comfort in it. -------------------------------------------- CF---> Can't find it at the moment, but I'm sure you're right - must be a reason for sticking with it...:) ------------------------------- You say: Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Ken H ------------------------------------------- CF---> Your reply, as always, is threaded through with metta and contains many useful points to reflect on. metta and thanks, Christine 16221 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Howard Hi Howard, When I wrote my post, I think I was sinking into 'the slough of despond', lucky there are good friends here to lean down and offer a lift up. :) You know the old saying, "Usually I try to take one day at a time, but lately, several days have attacked me at once..." If only the Jhanas were readily achievable for the manyfolk ... but I honestly don't know of anyone (that I trust) who states that they personally have achieved them. (I know some I trust who have set attaining jhana as a goal.) Avalokitesvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion - how unfamiliar and unusual I found the readings about him at first. "He guards the world in the interval between the departure of the historical Buddha, Sakyamuni, and the appearance of the future Buddha, Maitreya." Reading about the great vow of Avalokitesvara - Is this possible, or is it a yearning fantasy of those who are suffering? Thanks for your caring post Howard - I found it a real support, especially the reminders about "the Dhamma has something going for it that makes it superior, namely *the truth*. .... Yes, the talk is of aeons. But aeons have already passed! We are now practicing the Dhamma. That is already auspicious and bodes well for "good" births. And an awakening can come at any time!!" and "....." We shouldn't despair, I think, but should be grateful for having had the opportunity to come across the Dhamma in this auspicious human life of ours, and we should make the most of it. Now is the time, I think, to do all we can: to train under a kalyanamitta who has gone far if possible, and, as best we can, and however we can, to persevere in our practice." There are a very few people I look to as kalyanamitta - my judgment is that they are much further along in the development of understanding than I, and can be trusted to have my spiritual welfare at heart when replying to questions, or giving advice. But your phrasing sounds a little more formal ... and I wonder how you find such a one. metta, Christine 16222 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/WL Hi WL, I really enjoyed your post WL. It is very true what you say about finding the meaning behind the words, that they are only a tool used by others to try to help and guide us. You have really given me something to consider by sharing about your path and how you embrace Christianity and Buddhism. And thank you for mentioning children. Most parents would understand your feelings of 'Many times, I regretted bringing my children to this world.' - As Bob Dylan sings it is 'the worst fear that can ever be hurled, fear to bring children into the world.' (Masters of War). But, from a buddhist perspective, I wonder whether either not having children, or having children, would serve any purpose - the 'thirst' to re-exist would have found embodiment in some form. At work, I can usually come to terms with an infant/child's quick death. I try to reflect that the body may be extremely young, but the everchanging process of cittas, that it once supported, has been journeying since beginningless time in many forms. It is when children have not died, but are unrescueable - still trapped in ongoing deliberately inflicted suffering, that I find buddhist explanations of kamma and anatta difficult to apply. I envy your equanimity, perhaps one day ... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi Christine, > I so empathize with you. A couple of years back, I, too, was overwhelmed > by the suffering I see in this world. I feel nothing but pessimism and > total > despair that the world is coming to an end. Many times, I regretted > bringing > my children to this world, and spent my time just lying in bed, feeling > hopeless. God provided me consolation that I shall be salvaged from this > pain, and it was faith that keeps me living. > > Then I was introduced to Buddhism. It brought to me a brand new > perspective of things. Buddhism striked me as a harder and more > disciplinary way to get to truth. It forced me to really analyze what's > going > on in this world and eventually help me the comprehend the true cause of > human suffering. And the understanding of anatta is the key to that > understanding of the cause so that when I came to that realization, I > actually found instead of despair, a calmness that arises from that > understanding. And it led me to gratitude that I am living, that I am a > human, and that I have the potential to be salvaged from the whirling sea > of suffering while living. And it gave me hope that everyone has the > potential to be salvaged (just as God has promised). Even though I may > not be enlightened by the end of my life, but accumulation does occur. > And I have thus made a vow to myself that I shall seek the truth, > and I shall help the others to see the truth. It's not an easy way, > and it takes much discipline, but the hope and the determination > kept me going. > > There are many times in life, sometimes you just want a shoulder to cry on, > and someone to turn to for solace, and God served that role. But > ultimately we have to get up and continue the journey on our own to > truely understand what life is telling us. > > And finally I think it's crucial to read the meanings behind the words. > Words are invented by human beings to convey the message. > However, words are not sufficient. All the writings are attempts by > those with good heart trying the best they can using human tool > "words" to help others see the truth they have come to realize. > They are just trying to set out a footprints for others to follow > so we don't get lost in the woods. But don't just look at the > footprints. See what's surrounding you to get a better > orientation of yourself and to experience the scenary. It's only > through experience that we'll come to truth. Also, showing > people truth takes teamwork by many people, some people > serves as the teacher, some as translators, some as scholoars. > You will find the path you will be taking by looking at yourself, > understanding your inclination. > > You've asked me how I embrace Christianity and Buddhism. > This has been my path. Hope it helps! > > metta, > WL 16223 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Howard Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/11/02 3:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > There are a very few people I look to as kalyanamitta - my judgment > is that they are much further along in the development of > understanding than I, and can be trusted to have my spiritual welfare > at heart when replying to questions, or giving advice. But your > phrasing sounds a little more formal ... and I wonder how you find > such a one. > ========================= Yes, I meant it formally. But I don't think finding a true kalyanamitta is easy. There's an old occultist saying: "When the student is ready, the master will appear". Perhaps that's so. Meanwhile, I suppose we can search within the Bhikkhu Sangha as a likely source. However, until a true kalyanamitta has been found we can take the Dhamma as our guide. That, together with our practice, is the true guide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:47pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - suffering/Paul Hi Paul, Thank you for your explanations and comments. What you say is exactly so - Dukkha, how it arises, how it ceases, and The Way to its cessation is all the Buddha came to teach. It is true we sometimes only regard hurtful or unliked things as dukkha - so it is good to have your reminders that the happy times are dukkha as well. I like this other reminder that just about everything is dukkha also:"A contemporary definition: Dukkha is: Disturbance, irritation, dejection, worry, despair, fear, dread, anguish, anxiety; vulnerability, injury, inability, inferiority; sickness, aging, decay of body and faculties, senility; pain/pleasure; excitement/boredom; deprivation/excess; desire/frustration, suppression; longing/aimlessness; hope/hopelessness; effort, activity, striving/repression; loss, want, insufficiency/satiety; love/lovelessness, friendlessness; dislike, aversion/attraction; parenthood/childlessness; submission/rebellion; decision/indecisiveness, vacillation, uncertainty." -- Francis Story in Suffering, in Vol. II of The Three Basic Facts of Existence (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ajahn_paul" wrote: > Hi, > > In Buddhism, there r 2 sets of "Dukkha", one is called "8 Dukkha", > the other one is called "3 Dukkha". > > 8 Dukkha is : "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; > sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association > with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; > not getting what is wanted is dukkha. Illness is dukkha. > > 3 Dukkha is : the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of > fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms > of stressfulness." > > The other way of 3 Dukkha is : 1)the suffer from our body and mind, > such as hungry, feeling cold etc..2) the suffer from changing, such > as situation cannot be kept as u want. 3) the suffer from all living > things and material will deteriorate, like flowers will die, even a > building will collapse. > > Wish u can understand what im trying to say... if some of u know what > i mean, please help me to explain! ^_~ > > Paul 16225 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Sarah Hi Sarah, S: "... "Dhamma is dhamma: it cannot be changed, it is the truth."In other words, whether we `get it' or not, whether anyone `gets it' or not, it is the truth of the nature of life." ---------------------------------------- C: Yes, as you have all reminded me. I think the problem is/was that I did 'get it' - I just didn't 'like' it.:) ---------------------------------------- S: " ... The problems we experience and see all around us - the suffering, the greed, the hatred, the destruction and so on, are no different from those that have always been experienced and always will. There is only one Way. This Way, the development of satipatthana, is the highest `good' and a condition for all other kinds of `good' to be understood and performed as well. At times of wisdom or other wholesome states, there is no `crushing burden', but lightness and ease and lack of concern for one's own lot. --------------------------------------- C: Yes, - I was going to say "it is not 'my own lot' that I am concerned about, but on second thoughts, it is ... my faulty magic wand with its inability to make the world be non-harming and kind, and my feelings concerning this. I'll hang about over in Larry's corner for a while and get back on The Way. -------------------------------------- S: I realise these brief comments are probably not very helpful for you at this time, but I'm glad you can honestly ask the questions of real concern to yourself and many others here. `Appreciate' as Num would say. ------------------------------------------- C: It's always a toss up - to post, or not to post? - But this is such a 'safe' list on which to reveal ones ignorance (no need to pretend to a greater understanding) and defilements (and they leap out anyway, even if one is trying to pretend they don't exist). Support and guidance is always forthcoming from other members. Thank you Sarah and Jon for providing and maintaining DSG as a non- threatening space to learn and grow. ------------------------------------ metta, Sarah ======= metta, Chris 16226 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Nina and Rob, Would it be correct to say that nibbana is not an object of satipatthana except as concept (as in 4 noble truths)? What kind of practice does a sotapanna engage in? Larry 16227 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:28pm Subject: ekayana Would people like another week to consider the rather lengthy commentary on ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo? Also could we have a literal translation of these words? Does yano = maggo? And what does aya.m mean? Larry 16228 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? In a message dated 10/10/2002 2:50:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Yes, you're correct, and I did realize that you weren't voicing just a > personal opinion with that. I believe it is mentioned in several suttas. > The > Buddha taught the jhanas as a peaceful abiding here and now. But he taught > that to his followers, who needed such. He, however, didn't need such a > temporary peaceful abiding. He had reached the far shore. So I don't think > that would account for his continuing to meditate as a Buddha. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard I believe this question comes up in the suttas specifically regarding arahats. Its not that they need to meditate, but apparently do prefer pleasant abidings over other options. I believe he original question on this topic already understood that the Buddha didn't "need" to meditate but was curious as to why he continued to meditate. When I come across the sutta reference I will site it but it may be months before then. TG 16229 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/11/02 7:48:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I believe this question comes up in the suttas specifically regarding > arahats. Its not that they need to meditate, but apparently do prefer > pleasant abidings over other options. > > I believe he original question on this topic already understood that the > Buddha didn't "need" to meditate but was curious as to why he continued to > meditate. > > When I come across the sutta reference I will site it but it may be months > before then. > > TG > > ========================== Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences for certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful goal, then complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to be. It suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16230 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello Howard, all >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences for >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful goal, then >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to be. It >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, having reached the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an end in itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though the earlier post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a sympathetic chord with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an expression of equanimity or enlightenment. Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural behavior, of enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally behave, having no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the natural expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the third limb of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so clear. If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as instrumental, any more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, since we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know about the reply: to experience nibbana.) metta, stephen 16231 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Howard, TG,and Stephen, What do you think the Buddha was doing? Maybe resting in mindfulness? Others slept, the busy world stopped as it does at night. It was crucial for our benefit that he teach as long as he did ... does becoming an Arahat mean that the body and sense organs become perfect? Or do they remain as they were and continue to degenerate? His physical body was that of an older man for most of the period that he taught. The body was eighty years old at his parinibbana, and had experienced a relatively austere life with few comforts by our standards. The Buddha gave out so much in his Teaching, mostly surrounded by needy people, he slept very little, and the body that supported him was surely as fragile as yours and mine. In the Jara Sutta (Old Age), Ananda may not have received the gold star for tact that day - "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." The Buddha actually knew and experienced aging in this last rebirth, somehow that is comforting ... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn48041.html#spit Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Howard, all > > >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences for > >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful goal, then > >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to be. It > >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. > I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, having reached > the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an end in > itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though the earlier > post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a sympathetic chord > with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an expression of > equanimity or enlightenment. > Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural behavior, of > enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally behave, having > no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the natural > expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the third limb > of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so clear. > If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as instrumental, any > more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, since > we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) > I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know about the > reply: to experience nibbana.) > metta, stephen 16232 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi, Christine - I think that what you propose in the following makes much sense, and I expect that it may well be part of the answer. Generalizing, I think that the Buddha meditated for one or more skillful reasons/purposes, but never out of desire (tanha) or discontent. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/11/02 9:44:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Hi Howard, TG,and Stephen, > > What do you think the Buddha was doing? Maybe resting in > mindfulness? Others slept, the busy world stopped as it does at > night. It was crucial for our benefit that he teach as long as he > did ... does becoming an Arahat mean that the body and sense organs > become perfect? Or do they remain as they were and continue to > degenerate? His physical body was that of an older man for most of > the period that he taught. The body was eighty years old at his > parinibbana, and had experienced a relatively austere life with few > comforts by our standards. The Buddha gave out so much in his > Teaching, mostly surrounded by needy people, he slept very little, > and the body that supported him was surely as fragile as yours and > mine. > In the Jara Sutta (Old Age), Ananda may not have received the gold > star for tact that day - > "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's > complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & > wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his > faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the > faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the > body." > The Buddha actually knew and experienced aging in this last rebirth, > somehow that is comforting ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn48041.html#spit > Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the > aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > Hello Howard, all > > > > >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences > for > > >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful > goal, then > > >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to > be. It > > >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. > > I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, > having reached > > the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an > end in > > itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though > the earlier > > post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a > sympathetic chord > > with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an > expression of > > equanimity or enlightenment. > > Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural > behavior, of > > enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally > behave, having > > no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the > natural > > expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the > third limb > > of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so > clear. > > If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as > instrumental, any > > more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, > since > > we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) > > I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know > about the > > reply: to experience nibbana.) > > metta, stephen > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16233 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:41pm Subject: Re: Dukkha - sufferingPaul --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ajahn_paul" wrote: > > The other way of 3 Dukkha is : 1)the suffer from our body and mind, > such as hungry, feeling cold etc..2) the suffer from changing, such > as situation cannot be kept as u want. 3) the suffer from all living > things and material will deteriorate, like flowers will die, even a > building will collapse. > > Wish u can understand what im trying to say... if some of u know what > i mean, please help me to explain! ^_~ >___________ Dear Paul, Thanks for bringing up the three types of Dukkha. As you said in your earlier post Dukkha is constant; even happy feeling is dukkha . I appreciate your understanding of this. The three types are 1 "Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or upekha, .ie painful feeling 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls away or changes, 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and falling away of sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of all sankkhara." The first, dukkha-dukkha, includes all painful feeling. In the human realm we experience this regularly as either painful bodily feeling or as painful mental feeling associated with dosa. Both are vedana and nama. The Brahama gods experience no dukkha-dukkha during their aeons as gods. When they are reborn in lower realms painful feeling will arise again. In the hell realms dukkha-dukkha is extreme. The second, viparinama dukkha can be understood by considering the 6doors: when visible object comes into contact with the eye-sense and seeing consciousness arises. If the object is pleasant a process will arise whereby pleasurable feeling arises. When the visible object goes the sense pleasure to the eye disappears. The same with all the other doors of ear, nose tongue, body mind. Thus all beings are forced to do all kinds of things, both good and bad , to try to ensure a continual supply of pleasant objects for these doors. The truly pathetic, miserable nature of samasara can be gauged by how often we indulge in activities (designed to bring us these pleasurable objects) that as akusala kamma, can only give unpleasant results in the future. Thus deep is ignorance. And as I understand it the third, sankhara-dukkha – the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the deepest meaning of dukkha. All conditioned phenomena, all dhammas are in such an extraordinary flux that to say they exist is an extreme. This is the meaning of dukkha ariya-sacca, the first noble truth, so hard to comprehend. Anyone can reason and understand the first two aspects of dukkha. We all know about pain, dukkha dukkha, and we can all see to some extent change occurring at the 6doors. But to penetrate the aspect of sankhara-dukkha is only possible by the correct, gradual development of satipatthana thereby fulfilling the 37 bodhipakkhyadhamma and the eightfactored path. The Buddha often said "Birth is suffering old age is suffering, death is suffering…….In short the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha." The deep meaning of the last part of the phrase becomes clear if we consider the Samyutta-Nikaya, Khandha-Vagga where it says "Corporeality is a murderer, as are vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana". Yes, we are so attached to these khandas but this is only because we can't see that at every moment they are breaking up. Thus what we take for 'ourselves' are nothing other than Dukkha. This dukkha-ariya-sacca is deep. Robert 16234 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello Christine, all >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? I'm not sure about the support part—perhaps!—but abiding in mindfulness, the natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of putting what I was suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being instrumental to that very end. Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it down ;-) metta, stephen 16235 From: Date: Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Dear Nina and Rob, I think there must be a mundane satipatthana and a supramundane satipatthana. The mundane satipatthana is what is described in the sutta and is characterized as the "only way" [to the supramundane], I think. Consider the following from Visuddhimagga XXII par. 40: In the moment of fruition the thirty three* excepting the Four Right Endeavours are found. When these are found in a single consciousness in this way, it is the one kind of mindfulness whose object is nibbana that is called 'the Four Foundations of Mindfulness' because it accomplishes the function of abandoning the [four] perceptions of beauty, etc., in the [four things] beginning with the body. And also the one kind of energy is called 'Four Right Endeavors' because it accomplishes the [four] functions beginning with preventing the arising of the unarisen [unprofitable]. But there is no decrease or or increase with the rest. L: this paragraph requires extensive explanation which I can't offer but it seems clear that there is a lokuttara satipatthana. * 33 + 4 = 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma Larry 16236 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Christine Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then many followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example of human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for enlightment with the right effort. We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no need and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of energy at all. kind rgds KC --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Christine, all > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of > the > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > I'm not sure about the support part—perhaps!—but abiding in > mindfulness, the > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of putting > what I was > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > instrumental to that > very end. > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it down > ;-) > metta, stephen > > 16237 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 2:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hello KC, (Howard, Stephen and all), {I've just been trying to catch up with those in The Way corner ... which means I'm reading the The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness. Hint to any others lagging behind - nine cemetery contemplations and one reflection of the repulsiveness of the body can quite take the edge off the evening. And, unless you are trying to lose weight, I'd advise it after a meal, not before.} Ken, Yours is an interesting perspective. I don't have any strong opinion as to why the Buddha meditated, if that was what he was doing. It was just a suggestion thrown on the table. I think the normal routines of daily life over forty five years would have shown people he was human. (Eating, breathing, drinking, urinating, defecating, coughing, vomiting, talking, bathing, sniffing, spitting, sleeping, aging and all the other things bodies do.) Ananda certainly told him he was getting wrinkled and flabby. Why wouldn't his body and mind have needed sleep, if it needed everything else? He was still a human being (wasn't he?) even though a Samma Sammbuddha? I think the original question was "--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why did the > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > metta, stephen" And this question seems to have been raised not because the Buddha didn't meditate, but because he did. Glad you're still around KC, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his > disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then many > followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example of > human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for enlightment > with the right effort. > > We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no need > and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of energy at > all. > > > kind rgds > KC > > --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > Hello Christine, all > > > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of > > the > > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > > I'm not sure about the support partâ€"perhaps!â€"but abiding in > > mindfulness, the > > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of putting > > what I was > > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > > instrumental to that > > very end. > > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it down > > ;-) > > metta, stephen 16238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Dear Rob M, Do you have a scriptural reference for your statement? We just read in the Way 12: The five khandhas , all conditioned nama and rupa are among the four satipatthanas of body, feeling, citta and dhamma (comprising also cetasikas). What else is there? You are probably thinking of those who attained arahatship after having listened to a few words said by the Buddha. They had accumulated panna in former lives, but also at that very moment they penetrated the true nature of nama and rupa. They were mindful and understood whatever appeared through the six doors. They penetrated Dependent Origination: whatever is of the nature to arise has to cease. They had bodies with arms, legs, nails, skin, but they realized that these were not belonging to a self, just elements. When your are for example standing in front of your pupils, talking and gesticulating, what is there? The four Applications are very much life now, they can remind you that there is not my arms, hands, mouth, not my thinking, my feelings, but just nama elements and rupa elements. Without satipatthana we take bodily and mental phenomena for self. Nina. op 11-10-2002 07:17 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Satipatthana might help you achieve a supramundane citta but it is > certainly not a requirement. There were many cases in the Suttas of > people attaining supramundane states (i.e. becoming an Arahant) > without practising satipatthana. 16239 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:32am Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup --- Eddie Lou wrote: > Hello, All, > > I did not get to read this welcome email until now. > Better late than never. > > --- dhammastudygroup Moderator > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > > > Welcome to the group. > > > > We hope you will take part in and benefit from the > > exchange of views here. > > > > All new members are invited to consider posting a > > short ‘Hello’. Other members would be interested to > > know something about you, your interest in Buddhism > > and how you found your way here! > > > > Wishing you progress in the dhamma > > > > Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > > (Moderators) 16240 From: ajahn_paul Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:59am Subject: Re: Dukkha - sufferingPaul Hi Robert, Thanks for ur explaination. This is what im trying to say! ^_~ Paul > >___________ > Dear Paul, > Thanks for bringing up the three types of Dukkha. As you said in your > earlier post Dukkha is constant; even happy feeling is dukkha . I > appreciate your understanding of this. > The three types are > 1 > "Dukkha-dukkha, the vedana that is not sukkha or > upekha, .ie painful feeling > 2. Viparinama-dukkha, when pleasant feeling falls > away or changes, > 3. Sankhara-dukkha, any instant of arising and > falling away of > sankhara-dhamma, impermanence, the characteristic of > all sankkhara." > > > The first, dukkha-dukkha, includes all painful feeling. > In the human realm we experience this regularly as > either painful bodily feeling or as painful mental > feeling associated with dosa. Both are vedana and > nama. The Brahama gods experience no dukkha-dukkha > during their aeons as gods. When they are reborn in > lower realms painful feeling will arise again. In the > hell realms dukkha-dukkha is extreme. > > The second, viparinama dukkha can be understood by > considering the 6doors: when visible object comes > into contact with the eye-sense and seeing > consciousness arises. If the object is pleasant a > process will arise whereby pleasurable feeling arises. > When the visible object goes the sense pleasure to > the eye disappears. The same with all the other doors > of ear, nose tongue, body mind. Thus all beings are > forced to do all kinds of things, both good and bad , to try > to ensure a continual supply of pleasant objects for > these doors. The truly pathetic, miserable nature of > samasara can be gauged by how often we indulge in > activities (designed to bring us these pleasurable > objects) that as akusala kamma, can only give > unpleasant results in the future. Thus deep is ignorance. > > And as I understand it the third, sankhara-dukkha ?> the continual rising and ceasing of dhammas is the > deepest meaning of dukkha. All conditioned phenomena, > all dhammas are in such an extraordinary flux that to > say they exist is an extreme. This is the meaning of > dukkha ariya-sacca, the first noble truth, so hard to > comprehend. Anyone can reason and understand the > first two aspects of dukkha. We all know about pain, > dukkha dukkha, and we can all see to some extent > change occurring at the 6doors. But to penetrate the > aspect of sankhara-dukkha is only possible by the > correct, gradual development of satipatthana thereby > fulfilling the 37 bodhipakkhyadhamma and the > eightfactored path. > > The Buddha often said "Birth is suffering old age is > suffering, death is suffering?.In short the five > aggregates of clinging are dukkha." The deep meaning > of the last part of the phrase becomes clear if we > consider the Samyutta-Nikaya, Khandha-Vagga where it > says "Corporeality is a murderer, as are vedana, > sanna, sankhara and vinnana". Yes, we are so attached > to these khandas but this is only because we can't see > that at every moment they are breaking up. Thus what we take > for 'ourselves' are nothing other than Dukkha. > This dukkha-ariya-sacca is deep. > Robert 16241 From: vimmuti Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:27am Subject: ruth denison...simply the best...:-) Ruth denison for you... give her a call. There is also a woman up in the Barre Mass area that appears to be the heir to her way of teaching. can't tell never met her... You do not seem to teach vipassana in the usual way—silent sitting and walking with an occasional Dharma talk. Can you say anything about your methods of teaching? As I mentioned earlier, U Ba Khin (my teacher) stressed awareness of bodily sensations. Each of the teachers in his or her own time develops their own emphasis within the awareness of bodily sensations. Some stress hearing, others sight, etc. Some teachers utilize only sitting. U Ba Khin taught and practiced the development of awareness only in strict sitting—with only very short informal periods of walking meditation. The longer I taught, the more I realized the difficulties that the meditators displayed in their meditation; they did not have the cultural and religious background for the ability to simply sit and pay attention to their own living process, body-mind sensations. In focusing so intently on the breath and body parts for long periods of time, people would try too hard. So I expand the selection of body sensations to keep the meditators engaged, and to foster softness and gentleness within themselves. I experiment with the application of mindfulness to body, breath and sensations in body positions other than just sitting. What evolves is meditation while standing, walking, running, jumping, lying down, rolling on the grass—meditation in the entire scope of body's mobility and expression, in yoga àsanas, in dance and laughing, in sound, touch, taste, sight or imitation motions such as crawling like a worm, etc. But let me stress that what I do is strictly within the prescribed bounds of Buddha's teachings—using the body and its sensations as a vehicle for mindfulness training, for developing awareness for clear comprehension of the present moment, of correct understanding of life's living and dying. By using such variety of sensations for developing awareness students learn how to apply their practice in situations other than simply sitting on a pillow. Often students do not know how to carry practice home with them after a retreat. But awareness developed in such a wide scope of meditation pattern, as I teach it, becomes gradually a natural state, and for that reason it is effortless and not easy to lose. The kinesthetic sense is corrected by means of movement, the focusing ability more easily strengthened than in strict sitting, and ease and relaxedness in body and mind is naturally invited. Often, however, students fail to recognize the fact that these psychological exercises or meditation in expression are actually part of the First Establishment of Mindfulness [in the Satipathàna text]. So, in truth, I am not teaching a different version of vipassana meditation. I feel it is rather the extended edition. And you offer your students more guidance than is usual, don't you? I believe the IMS course description refers to "sustained and on-going verbal teacher instruction throughout the day." I do feel that this description of verbal guidance is slightly exaggerated and misunderstood, for I do give or allow sufficient time for the meditators to practice by themselves, on their own, and without instruction. As we know, there are many obstructions and difficulties in our meditation practice. So my so-called "ongoing verbal instructions" are one way of alleviating or easing these difficulties the students suffer in their sitting meditation. So instead of insisting upon the traditional meditation pattern of sitting for a full hour with only a few moments' interruption, I include verbal support during quiet sitting practice as a natural reminder for returning from daydreaming or lost- thought-processes to mindful attention to the meditation object proper. I provide verbal support during the sitting meditation also for the purpose of perhaps quicker recognition of the student's alertness or sleepiness, or for realizing and knowing what is happening in one's emotional or thinking level. Clear comprehension—a mental ability to discern and know the present situation clearly and fully—is part of mindfulness and therefore very much enhanced through verbal assistance during the quiet practice as well as during any kind of practice in motion. In this way, as one student told me, "self-correction and self-observation can occur on the job." I also use verbal assistance as encouragement for perseverance in the vipassana practice, or as reminders for self-examining the quality of attitude and effort. Practicing in these various modalities within the vipassana meditation features an outstanding quality— "Never a dull moment,"— and a demand for total participation from the students and the teacher. This in turn cultivates a wonderful spirit of genuine communion. Most of all, I encourage people to go into their difficulties and to cope with the change that's taking place even as they are paying attention to it. Our life is nothing but change and it is to this change that I bow deeply. I bow to this change, I bow deeply to life itself. Saw only one schesule mention for anytjong happening out at her place. too bad if she has retired. Contact is: Dhamma Dena HC-1, Box 250 Joshua Tree, CA 92252 tel (619) 362-4815 a blurb about her style Ruth Denison studied in Burma in the early 1960's with the meditation master Sayagi U Ba Khin. She has been teaching since 1973 and is founder of Dhamma Dena, a desert retreat center in Joshua Tree CA, and The Center for Buddhism in the West in Germany. She is known for her energy and unorthodox way of teaching Vipassana meditation. She uses movement, music, rhythm, chanting, and sound as supportive meditation patterns for the practice. " and still crazy after all these years"...quietmind 16242 From: Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:09am Subject: panna Dear group, I was going to launch an extensive investigation of pa~n~naa and its function in satipa.t.thaana including how satipa.t.thaana and the path of purification go together but I think the following short paragraph suffices for now. Visuddhimagga XXII par. 34: 'Foundation (pa.t.thaana)' is because of establishment (upa.t.thaana) by going down into, by descending upon, such and such objects. Mindfulness itself as foundation (establishment) is 'Foundations of Mindfulness'. It is of four kinds because it occus with respect to the body, feeling, consciousness, and mental objects (dhamma), taking them as foul, painful, impermanent, and not self, and because it accomplishes the function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence, and self. That is why 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' is said. [in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma] L: To me, this brings out that there is an analytical aspect of satipatthana. Larry 16243 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:51pm Subject: Cemetery Contemplations Dear Christine and all, Karen M. Andrews once wrote in: "Forty Meditations: Who Should Use Which?" "10 Asubhas (Objects of Impurity): The ten objects of impurity are various sorts of corpses. Meditating on corpses is useful is reducing lust. This practice should only be followed under the guidance of a master. Below is a list of the asubhas and who will find them useful. Swollen Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of form. Discolored Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of the skin and complexion. Festering Corpse: Those who lust after a sweet-smelling body, using perfumes. Fissured Corpse: Those who lust after the firmness and solidity of the body. Mangled Corpse: Those who lust after fulness of the flesh, such as the breasts. Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after graceful movements of the body. Cut & Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after perfection of the joints of the body. Blood-stained Corpse: Those who lust after beauty produced by adornments. Worm-infested Corpse: Those who are attached to the idea that the body is "me" or "mine." Skeleton: Those who lust after perfection of the teeth and nails." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2175 or ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/medbud/40meds.zip 16244 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: Cemetery Contemplations Hi Antony, and all, Thanks for your interesting post - it raises a few problems for me however. 1.(i) The scarcity of corpses to meditate upon. And, consequently, if one should find a reliable source, the very limited choice in their style and condition. As most corpses in my local area are victims of mayhem or motor accident and are fresh but damaged, it would be most suitable for those who suffer from some lusts and not others according to your list. (ii) The odd reputation one may gain from even enquiring about "corpse availability", and the danger of police action if one should actually find, and then be discovered meditating beside, a suitable corpse. One wonders if decaying corpses in charnel grounds are available anywhere in the world as a matter of course. (iv) The availability of photos - there was an internet site that had photos of corpses in various stages of decompostion, but I can't seem to locate it. And would photos be suitable - certainly they are much smaller, deoderised, present a view from only one perspective, and don't have the 'presence' of the actual remains of a human. (v) Does it have to be a human corpse? There is a wide variety of choices of animal, bird and insect corpses available, from road- kill, predator attack or natural causes. Would a frozen chicken from the supermarket do in a pinch? :) 2. (i) The strength of the words used in buddhism often seems 'over the top', and makes it more difficult upon reflection to apply to oneself. For example, "lust" to me means something like "inordinate craving and passionate sinful desire. Something that obsesses the mind." I clearly have a problem understanding what lust, hate, greed means in a buddhist sense as it applies to ordinary daily life. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Christine and all, > > Karen M. Andrews once wrote in: > "Forty Meditations: Who Should Use Which?" > > "10 Asubhas (Objects of Impurity): > > The ten objects of impurity are various sorts of > corpses. Meditating on corpses is useful is reducing > lust. This practice should only be followed under the > guidance of a master. Below is a list of the asubhas and > who will find them useful. > > Swollen Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of form. > > Discolored Corpse: Those who lust after beauty of the > skin and complexion. > > Festering Corpse: Those who lust after a sweet-smelling > body, using perfumes. > > Fissured Corpse: Those who lust after the firmness and > solidity of the body. > > Mangled Corpse: Those who lust after fulness of the > flesh, such as the breasts. > > Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after graceful > movements of the body. > > Cut & Dismembered Corpse: Those who lust after > perfection of the joints of the body. > > Blood-stained Corpse: Those who lust after beauty > produced by adornments. > > Worm-infested Corpse: Those who are attached to the idea > that the body is "me" or "mine." > > Skeleton: Those who lust after perfection of the teeth > and nails." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eightfold-l/message/2175 > or > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/medbud/40meds.zip 16245 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry and all, > Would people like another week to consider the rather lengthy commentary > on ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo? > > Also could we have a literal translation of these words? Does yano = > maggo? And what does aya.m mean? The word is ayano, not yano. ekaayano is a compound word made up of two words: eka (one) and ayano (way) and yes, ayano is a synonym of maggo (path) and should not be confused with 'yaana' (vehicle) as in Mahaayaana. The 'aya.m' (this) is a demonstrative pronoun modifying 'maggo', hence, 'this path'. A literal translation of the phrasing is: "one way, monks, is this path" but because of the compound state of 'ekaayano' there are a number of ways 'eka' can be syntactically related to 'ayano' that allows for some different and equally valid interpretations as given in Soma's commentary translation. This is a good example of the limitations of an English translation in that it can choose only one of these interpretations for a sutta translation. Best wishes, Jim 16246 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:04pm Subject: Jim, the Parrot, the Bats, the Dog, the Frog and the Flea (WAY 10) Hi Jim, and all, I'm just catching up with The Way posts, and came across your story of the Parrot. This is so lovely! I would enjoy hearing more about Buddharakkhita the Meditating Parrot when you get around to translating the page. Rakkhita means 'guarded, protected and saved' - and so he was, by the novice Nuns. The most astonishing thing is that he stuck to his meditation subject :) while being carried off by a predator - and 'told' the Mahatheri about it. Perhaps he changed to a more auspicious subject than 'bone' after that? There are other stories in the suttas and commentaries about bats, a dog, a frog plus a flea. RobK told us The Bats Story: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/1138 "In the commentary to the Abhidhamma it gives the story of the 500 extremely wise arahant disciples of sariputta. Remember it was sariputta who received the outline to all the Abhidhamma from the Buddha and passed it on to his students. These men had all been in a long past life bats in a cave at the time of kassapa Buddha (see p21 of the atthasalini). They listened to two monks who used to recite Abhidhamma and although unable to understand the words knew that this is the law. After death they were all born in the deva world until the time of our Buddha when they became monks and arahants." ------------------------ The Dog story: "In the days of the Buddha there was a rich Brahmin called Todeyya living at Savatthi who was the king's adviser. He had fabulous wealth, but did not give anything to anyone, and told others, "If you give, you lose what you have, so do not give anything." He died greatly attached to his wealth and was reborn as a dog in his own house.One day the Buddha came to that house on his round for alms because he wanted to preach the true Dhamma to the young man Subha, the son of Todeyya. The dog that was formerly Todeyya came running out and barked at the Buddha. The Buddha spoke to the dog, "Hey Todeyya, you showed disrespect to me in your former birth, so now you have become a dog. Now you are barking at me and will be reborn in Avici hell for this bad action." On hearing this the dog thought, "This recluse Gotama knows me." Feeling very ill at ease he went to the kitchen and lay down to sleep in the ashes there. As he was the young Brahmin's pet, he used to sleep in his own comfortable bed. When the young man Subha saw him sleeping in the ashes, he asked his servants why, and was told what had happened.Young Subha thought to himself, "According to the Brahmin religion my father should have been reborn as a Brahma, but the recluse Gotama called the dog `Todeyya.' Thus he is saying that my father has been reborn as a dog. He just says whatever he likes." Thus he was deeply offended and came to the Buddha to accuse him of speaking a falsehood. He asked the Buddha what he had said to Todeyya the dog and the Buddha told him. Then to arouse faith in the young man the Buddha asked him, "Is there any wealth that your father didn't reveal before he died?" The young man replied that four hundred thousand was missing. The Buddha said to him, "Feed the dog well, and before he falls asleep ask him where the treasure is; he will reveal everything." So Subha thought, "If what the recluse Gotama says turns out to be true, I will find the treasure; if it is wrong then I can accuse him of a falsehood." So he fed the dog and asked him about the treasure. The dog led him to the buried treasure. On recovering his wealth, Subha thought to himself, "The recluse Gotama knows the secrets hidden to us by death. He is indeed the Buddha who knows all things." ------------------- And The Frog story + a Flea story (another ref. from RobK): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14673 "In the Vimanavatthu and Visuddhimagga a frog listened to the Buddha and knew only that 'this is good' He died and was imediately reborn as a deva, went to listen more to the Buddha and became a sotapanna. Or as Kom mentioned a monk died, was reborn as a flea and then the next day died and was born as a deva and became sotapanna. We humans think we are better than animals but this is perhaps our conceit." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Group, <<>>for brevity > almost a full page has been omitted. The commentary explains here that > animals that depend on humans can also engage in the practice of > satipatthana as illustrated by a story about a young parrot trained by > a mahatheri to contemplate on 'bone'. <<>>for brevity 16247 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard Just a couple of points from your post below. You said: <> If you mean, deliberate attending but without specifying or limiting the object being attended to, I’m not sure I see how this can be. Is this not a contradiction in terms?. It seems to me that if there is to be an attending that is truly an attending to *any* presently arising phenomenon, (i.e., any phenomenon that presents itself, without being concerned as to what that phenomenon might be), this could only be an attending that is not deliberate or directed. You said: <> Distraction is of course a hindrance to any kind of deliberate attention/concentration but not, I think, to awareness the arising of which is conditioned by factors other than deliberate attention/concentration. Seen in this light, 'distraction' is in fact just another concept/presently arising phenomenon, much like any other. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > =========================== > The informality/formality of the occasion is, of course, not the > point. By formal meditation I mean the case of one restricting the > variety of > sensory inputs by a combination of external actions (e.g., seeking a > quiet > place or closing one's eyes) and the internal actions of restricting > one's > attention (concentrating on selected stimuli) and initially calming and > concentrating the mind by attending to a single phenomenon > (conventional, > such as the breath) for a period of time. By informal meditation I mean > attending to whatever arises without such restrictive procedures, during > > ordinary activities. > I see advantages and disadvantages to each. I think the main > disadvantage to formal meditation is that the hindrances of sloth and > torpor > more easily arise in that context, and the advantage is more ease in the > > development of strong concentration and microscopic attention. I think > the > disadvantage of informal meditation is that the hindrance of distraction > more > easily arises in that context and that concentration less easily > develops, > and the advantage is more ease in maintaining a bright mind (avoiding > sloth > and torpor) and having a wider range of phenomena open to one's perusal. > Jon, with regard to your previous post on the Kalakarama Sutta > and the > Bahiya Sutta, I will have to get back to you about them another time. > But if > you are interested, I would strongly recommend Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's book > The > Magic of the Mind. He expresses the matter far better than I could. You > can > find it on amazon.com by doing a search on "Nanananda". (The url is a > bit > ungainly to forward) > > With metta, > Howard 16248 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry Larry 16249 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] my meditation Nina. Thanks for the kind remarks, but more especially for the reminder about Recollection of the Dhamma. Yes, those moments of kusala are indeed a level of samatha, but so often there is no awareness of that or any other aspect of the presently arising phenomena, even though we are reflecting about dhamma at some level at the time. However, thanks to all the good folk on this list, there are a lot more conditions for some level of useful reflect than there would otherwise be, for which I am extremely grateful to all. Jon PS BTW, I very much appreciated your post to Sarah on the Therapeutic Literature thread, about patience as the highest asceticism. It was very helpful. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Eric and Jon, > First of all, Eric, I sympathize with your troubles, and I hope it will > be > soon that things turn out well for you and Eath. > Jon, I printed out what you wrote to Eric, because many points are well > worth considering again and again: as > vipaka>. We know in theory, but, what about now? from the perspective of our own interests>, true > nature of realities is our best friend.> > What you wrote to Eric is to be applied in the situations of life, when > we > are in trying circumstances. And then what you wrote at the end: When > there > is pleasant feeling again we are less likely to see reality as it is. We > are > happy again, forget about the worldly conditions. > Yes, this is my meditation, I value samatha. This is Recollection of > Dhamma. > Samatha can be together with vipassana. I do not see samatha as > preliminary > work for many moments of sati. Samatha and satipatthana can come > naturally, > whatever comes let it come. > Nina. 16250 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Larry ebtv.net wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You wrote: > > "There are many methods out there, all claiming to be correct ways of > 'practice'. The question one needs to ask in each case is the same > question you asked Rob M in a recent post in relation to sati, namely, > whether there is textual reference for it. I can't see any other way of > evaluating a 'practice', can you?" > > L: No, I think practice is different from samma-ditthi. Whatever works. You are perhaps thinking of right view (samma-ditthi) as a conceptual kind of thing. While there can of course be right view at a conceptual level, at its deepest level it is insight into the true nature of presently arising phenomena, which is also the goal of what most people think of as their ‘practice’. Those who think in terms of ‘practice’ as being a method or technique may be inclined to see the lesser levels of right view as being something short of the real thing, but that I think would be a mistake, since every moment of right view is accumulated and acts as a support for further moments of right view at deeper levels in the future. > There are many "skillful means" that are helpful to different people at > different times, in different circumstances. The "Kun Sujin Effortless > Listening Method" of satipatthana for example. As far as I know, there’s no such method!! (And even of there was one, I don’t think I’d be interested, since the development of true insight must in my view be based on a correct understanding of the actual teaching of the Buddha, as found in the Tipitaka and ancient texts, and there are no methods there!) Jon 16251 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm./Larry Hi Larry, I've just about caught up with THE WAY group - not sure if anyone answered this question ... I found this entry in Nyanatiloka's Dict.: "patisambhidá: 'analytical knowledge' or 'discrimination', is of 4 kinds: analytical knowledge of the true meaning (attha-patisambhidá), of the law (dhamma-patisambhidá), of language (nirutti-patisambhidá), of ready wit (patibhána-patisambhidá). As an alternative rendering of the fourth term (patibhána), Bhikkhu Ñánamoli proposes: perspicuity (in expression and knowledge). 1. The analytical knowledge of the meaning (attha-p.) is the knowledge with regard to the sense. 2. The analytical knowledge of the law (dhamma-p.) is the knowledge with regard to the law. 3. The analytical knowledge of language (nirutti-p.) is the knowledge of the language with regard to those former 2 things. 4. The analytical knowledge of ready-wit (patibhána-p.) is the knowledge about the (former 3) kinds of knowledge" (Vibh. XV). <<>> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_p.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > "That bhikkhu, even prostrate in the tiger's mouth, suppressed his pain > and developing the wisdom of insight attained the four paths and fruits > of sanctitude together with analytical knowledge. Then he uttered this > ecstatic utterance:-" > > Hi all, > > What is "analytical knowledge" here? > > thanks, Larry 16252 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:00am Subject: Meeting with Shakti I had the pleasure of meeting Deanna Shakti Johnson today. She has just arrived in Bangkok after hard travel in Tibet and Nepal, and today came to the foundation where we discussed Dhamma in English with Acharn Sujin. Other dsg members present were Num, Betty (who is finishing the editing and formatting of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas right now) Sukin and Ell . many topics including: Concept and reality. The difference betwen thinking about anatta and experiencing the actual characteristics of dhamas in the present moment. Why a sukkhavipassaka Anagami -who has no jhana - goes to the Brahma world upon death. This is because he has eliminated all sensual desire and he attains jhana at the moment of death , if not before. It must be easy for this being(who after attaining anagami has no aversion or sense desire or doubt) to attain jhana but by conditions he might not attain it till then. Also, Nina would have enjoyed, about the stages of vipassana and how at normal times the mind-door is obscured by the sense doors, but at the moments of vipassna nana the mind door becomes apparent. After the discussion we had lunch. Shakti sat near A. Sujin and they continued to discuus dhamma. We at the other end of the table couldn't hear, so the discussion shifted to Ivan(Australian) explaining, to a lovely Thai lady, the richness of the New Zealand accent by making sheep sounds. I (New Zealander) helped her grasp the basis of Australian linguistic forms by reference to the settling of the country by prison ships . Hoping to see more of Shakti this week. Robert 16253 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm The four satipatthanas are among the thirtyseven enlightenment factors, and these are mundane while they are being developed, but at the moment of enlightenment they are lokuttara, then they have reached fulfillment. I think we should consider: four satipatthanas in what sense? The sati sampajanna which is aware and understands. When it is mundane it is aware of the objects included in the four applications of mindfulness, and when it is lokuttara, nibbana is the object. In the Vis text you quote the supramundane sati sampajanna is called the four foundations for the reason given below: depending on the stage of enlightenment vipallasas are eradicated, and these vipallasas concern conditioned namas and rupas, included in the four foundations of mindfulness. But when we speak about the development of satipatthana now, of course it is mundane. Instead of being concerned whether sati is mundane or lokuttara, would it not be better to be intent on developing it just now? Body, feeling, citta and dhammas are always at hand. Nina op 12-10-2002 07:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I think there must be a mundane satipatthana and a supramundane > satipatthana. The mundane satipatthana is what is described in the sutta > and is characterized as the "only way" [to the supramundane], I think. > Consider the following from Visuddhimagga XXII par. 40: > > In the moment of fruition the thirty three* excepting the Four Right > Endeavours are found. > > When these are found in a single consciousness in this way, it is the > one kind of mindfulness whose object is nibbana that is called 'the Four > Foundations of Mindfulness' because it accomplishes the function of > abandoning the [four] perceptions of beauty, etc., in the [four things] > beginning with the body. And also the one kind of energy is called 'Four > Right Endeavors' because it accomplishes the [four] functions beginning > with preventing the arising of the unarisen [unprofitable]. But there is > no decrease or or increase with the rest. > > L: this paragraph requires extensive explanation which I can't offer but > it seems clear that there is a lokuttara satipatthana. > > * 33 + 4 = 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma > > Larry > 16254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi Larry' ayana.m is path, aayati is to come. Aya.m: this, neutre. Of course there is a lot to say about this. A few more days? But to be preferred is smaller parts. Nina op 12-10-2002 00:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would people like another week to consider the rather lengthy commentary > on ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo? > > Also could we have a literal translation of these words? Does yano = > maggo? And what does aya.m mean? > 16255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, The four noble Truths are under dhammas. When we are developing satipatthana now we can think of nibbana as the end of dukkha. We have to wait until later on, we can look at this more closely when considering dhammas in dhammas The sotapanna has to go on and on developing satipatthana, it never is enough, until arahatship has been attained. Nina. op 12-10-2002 00:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Would it be correct to say that nibbana is not an object of satipatthana > except as concept (as in 4 noble truths)? > > What kind of practice does a sotapanna engage in? 16256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] the only way Hi Larry, see below. op 11-10-2002 01:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Sati is aware and panna knows the characteristics of all > realities included in the four satipatthanas, the gocara or domain of > panna." > L: What is involved in knowing the characteristics of realities? N: These characteristics appear one at a time through one of the six doors. They appear to sati which is aware, but no self who can direct which object sati is aware of. You spoke at another time about . This expression does not render the development so well. Listening, study, considering, pondering over, and also effort is involved, but this effort is not self. Patience is needed and all the other perfections. Enough work to do! Nina. 16257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:37am Subject: Perfections ch 6, Energy, no. 5 Perfections ch 6, Energy, no. 5 Had the Buddha not been courageous, he could not have penetrated the four noble Truths and become the Sammåsambuddha. The development of each kind of kusala and of paññå by investigating and considering the dhamma that appears now is based on viriya, energy and perseverance. We all should have courage and perseverance so that instead of energy for akusala there can be kusala viriya, energy for kusala, otherwise kusala cannot be developed. Effort or energy as it was applied in the unwholesome way, life after life, is useless. If we are able to understand the characteristic of viriya as it is applied in the wholesome way and if we shall further develop this kind of energy, we shall understand the words of the above quoted commentary about viriya: someone with viriya will be progressing, he is not a coward, he is not frightened, he has no fear and he does not flee. In daily life everybody has come into contact with undesirable objects: for some people these are extremely undesirable, whereas for others these are only slightly so. This may happen when one meets another person on account of whom one is disturbed or feels displeasure. If sati-sampajañña (sati and paññå) does not arise, one does not know that there is akusala dhamma at such a moment and hence there is no opportunity for the arising of kusala viriya, but instead there is akusala viriya. There are bound to be conditions for desire and attachment so that akusala continues to arise. However, if someone has listened to the Dhamma and he develops paññå through satipatthåna, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware when he is irritated or displeased. We should consider more deeply the meaning of sati- sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati-sampajañña may be aware of it, and it may consider whether akusala dhamma should continue on. This depends on the paññå of the individual. At that moment there may be paññå which knows that it is not proper to be irritated in whatever respect, be it on account of the action or speech of someone else, or be it because we have noticed something wrong. When, for example, akusala citta with anger arises and sati-sampajaññå can be aware of it, we can see whether there is effort for giving up anger, and if one continues being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are conditions for the diminuition of displeasure and for the arising of mettå. Thus, instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. 16258 From: Norbu Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? perhaps Buddha's every moment is meditation itself. and when he sits crossed legged, closed eyes he might be contemplating something beyond the comprehension of our senses. norbu --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > I think that what you propose in the following makes much sense, and I > expect that it may well be part of the answer. Generalizing, I think that the > Buddha meditated for one or more skillful reasons/purposes, but never out of > desire (tanha) or discontent. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 10/11/02 9:44:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > > > Hi Howard, TG,and Stephen, > > > > What do you think the Buddha was doing? Maybe resting in > > mindfulness? Others slept, the busy world stopped as it does at > > night. It was crucial for our benefit that he teach as long as he > > did ... does becoming an Arahat mean that the body and sense organs > > become perfect? Or do they remain as they were and continue to > > degenerate? His physical body was that of an older man for most of > > the period that he taught. The body was eighty years old at his > > parinibbana, and had experienced a relatively austere life with few > > comforts by our standards. The Buddha gave out so much in his > > Teaching, mostly surrounded by needy people, he slept very little, > > and the body that supported him was surely as fragile as yours and > > mine. > > In the Jara Sutta (Old Age), Ananda may not have received the gold > > star for tact that day - > > "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's > > complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & > > wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his > > faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the > > faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the > > body." > > The Buddha actually knew and experienced aging in this last rebirth, > > somehow that is comforting ... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn48041.html#spit > > Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding in > > mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health of the > > aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all beings? > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > > > Hello Howard, all > > > > > > >Mmm, I get you. But if it is true that the Buddha had preferences > > for > > > >certain states over others, and not just to achieve some useful > > goal, then > > > >complete enlightenment is something less than I understood it to > > be. It > > > >suggests that a living arahant does not have complete equanimity. > > > I was thinking that since the Buddha didn't need to meditate, > > having reached > > > the end, he might have meditated not as a means, but somehow as an > > end in > > > itself. While 'pleasant abiding' didn't seem quite right (though > > the earlier > > > post which proposed "for aesthetic reasons" does strike a > > sympathetic chord > > > with me, and is perhaps on this track) perhaps it's as an > > expression of > > > equanimity or enlightenment. > > > Morality / sila can be seen as an expression, or the natural > > behavior, of > > > enlightenment: the precepts are how an arahat would naturally > > behave, having > > > no lobha and dosa. So it also seems that wisdom / panna is the > > natural > > > expression of the way an arahant would see things. So, also, the > > third limb > > > of the 8-fold path, meditation / samadhi, though this isn't so > > clear. > > > If that's correct then meditation should not be seen as > > instrumental, any > > > more than morality or wisdom; though they are incidentally a means, > > since > > > we're not enlightened. (He surmised.) > > > I thought there might simply be some clearer answer. (I don't know > > about the > > > reply: to experience nibbana.) > > > metta, stephen 16259 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Christine It is bc Buddha preach meditation. I don't know the yardstick of one definition of meditation but inside the "Dispeller of Delusion" there is mention of meditation of the body parts in the section of mindfulness. One got to praticise one preach or not who willl follow? What on his mind during mediation is everyone guess :)(couldn't be bother abt it). Whether there is a need to have a formal (I prefer the word instructional rather than formal) method, yes there is a need if one look at the section again. I wonder if any of the Abhidhammaist will disagree with what is written in that section :) kind rgds KC --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello KC, (Howard, Stephen and all), > > {I've just been trying to catch up with those in The Way corner ... > > which means I'm reading the The Discourse on the Arousing of > Mindfulness. Hint to any others lagging behind - nine cemetery > contemplations and one reflection of the repulsiveness of the body > can quite take the edge off the evening. And, unless you are trying > > to lose weight, I'd advise it after a meal, not before.} > > Ken, Yours is an interesting perspective. I don't have any strong > opinion as to why the Buddha meditated, if that was what he was > doing. It was just a suggestion thrown on the table. I think the > normal routines of daily life over forty five years would have > shown > people he was human. (Eating, breathing, drinking, urinating, > defecating, coughing, vomiting, talking, bathing, sniffing, > spitting, > sleeping, aging and all the other things bodies do.) Ananda > certainly > told him he was getting wrinkled and flabby. Why wouldn't his body > and mind have needed sleep, if it needed everything else? He was > still a human being (wasn't he?) even though a Samma Sammbuddha? > > I think the original question was > "--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello all, > > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why > > did the > > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > > metta, stephen" > > And this question seems to have been raised not because the Buddha > didn't meditate, but because he did. > Glad you're still around KC, > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his > > disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then > many > > followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example > of > > human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for > enlightment > > with the right effort. > > > > We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no > need > > and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of > energy > at > > all. > > > > > > kind rgds > > KC > > > > --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > Hello Christine, all > > > > > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding > in > > > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health > of > > > the > > > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all > beings? > > > I'm not sure about the support partâ€"perhaps!â€"but abiding in > > > mindfulness, the > > > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of > putting > > > what I was > > > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > > > instrumental to that > > > very end. > > > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it > down > > > ;-) > > > metta, stephen > 16260 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/13/02 4:10:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Just a couple of points from your post below. > > You said: > < restrictive procedures, during ordinary activities.>> > > If you mean, deliberate attending but without specifying or limiting the > object being attended to, I’m not sure I see how this can be. Is this not > a contradiction in terms?. > > It seems to me that if there is to be an attending that is truly an > attending to *any* presently arising phenomenon, (i.e., any phenomenon > that presents itself, without being concerned as to what that phenomenon > might be), this could only be an attending that is not deliberate or > directed. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think this is so. I do not find it a contradiction in terms. The difference is that of mental readiness and heightened attentiveness. It is quite difficult to maintain such a high level without restricting input, which, in fact, is why formal concentrative meditation is most common, but it is not impossible. It is a skill that can be developed to varying levels. It's practice amounts to "seeing" whatever arises clearly without "getting lost". It is attempted by many vipassana meditators, and it is the basis of the formal, but unrestricted, meditation technique of shikantaza (sp?), the "just sitting" technique of Ch'an/Zen. And of course, there are compromise approaches: For example, during ordinary activities such as eating, standing, taking a walk, and even falling asleep, one can primarily restrict attention to bodily position and sensation. Other things will be noticed as well, of course, but the body is used as an "anchor". ----------------------------------------------------- > > You said: > < distraction more easily arises in that context and that concentration less > easily develops.>> > > Distraction is of course a hindrance to any kind of deliberate > attention/concentration but not, I think, to awareness the arising of > which is conditioned by factors other than deliberate > attention/concentration. Seen in this light, 'distraction' is in fact > just another concept/presently arising phenomenon, much like any other. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, with sufficient distraction one doesn't even notice the distraction! There *is* the need to *cultivate* attention. It is a technique to be learned by practice, not unlike learning to play an instrument. In this case, the instrument is the mind. (Don't worry, though, I'm aware that there is no musician, just the playing! ;-) ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > > > >=========================== > > The informality/formality of the occasion is, of course, not the > >point. By formal meditation I mean the case of one restricting the > >variety of > >sensory inputs by a combination of external actions (e.g., seeking a > >quiet > >place or closing one's eyes) and the internal actions of restricting > >one's > >attention (concentrating on selected stimuli) and initially calming and > >concentrating the mind by attending to a single phenomenon > >(conventional, > >such as the breath) for a period of time. By informal meditation I mean > >attending to whatever arises without such restrictive procedures, during > > > >ordinary activities. > > I see advantages and disadvantages to each. I think the main > >disadvantage to formal meditation is that the hindrances of sloth and > >torpor > >more easily arise in that context, and the advantage is more ease in the > > > >development of strong concentration and microscopic attention. I think > >the > >disadvantage of informal meditation is that the hindrance of distraction > >more > >easily arises in that context and that concentration less easily > >develops, > >and the advantage is more ease in maintaining a bright mind (avoiding > >sloth > >and torpor) and having a wider range of phenomena open to one's perusal. > > Jon, with regard to your previous post on the Kalakarama Sutta > >and the > >Bahiya Sutta, I will have to get back to you about them another time. > >But if > >you are interested, I would strongly recommend Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's book > >The > >Magic of the Mind. He expresses the matter far better than I could. You > >can > >find it on amazon.com by doing a search on "Nanananda". (The url is a > >bit > >ungainly to forward) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16261 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Christine Another point (gosh I sound nagging). I don't know why pple tends to equate meditation with concentration. In fact I feel that when Buddha preach meditation, it was for understanding and reflecting more of impermanence and anatta. Right concentration is after right mindfulness, so without the good foundations of the 1st seven, don't bother abt right concentration. From what I read, whenever Buddha talks abt right concentration it tends to be the jhanas he is refering to and we wouldn't get them without the 1st seven. :) kind rgds KC --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello KC, (Howard, Stephen and all), > > {I've just been trying to catch up with those in The Way corner ... > > which means I'm reading the The Discourse on the Arousing of > Mindfulness. Hint to any others lagging behind - nine cemetery > contemplations and one reflection of the repulsiveness of the body > can quite take the edge off the evening. And, unless you are trying > > to lose weight, I'd advise it after a meal, not before.} > > Ken, Yours is an interesting perspective. I don't have any strong > opinion as to why the Buddha meditated, if that was what he was > doing. It was just a suggestion thrown on the table. I think the > normal routines of daily life over forty five years would have > shown > people he was human. (Eating, breathing, drinking, urinating, > defecating, coughing, vomiting, talking, bathing, sniffing, > spitting, > sleeping, aging and all the other things bodies do.) Ananda > certainly > told him he was getting wrinkled and flabby. Why wouldn't his body > and mind have needed sleep, if it needed everything else? He was > still a human being (wasn't he?) even though a Samma Sammbuddha? > > I think the original question was > "--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello all, > > (If meditation is instrumental, for the attainment of an end) Why > > did the > > Buddha meditate throughout his life, including the very end? > > metta, stephen" > > And this question seems to have been raised not because the Buddha > didn't meditate, but because he did. > Glad you're still around KC, > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Buddha got to show that he is human and set an example for his > > disciple. Just imagine if pple thinks if he is superhuman then > many > > followers will follow him by his superhuman rather by his example > of > > human fragility and with this fragility there is hope for > enlightment > > with the right effort. > > > > We got to ask do he need sleep at all? My opinion there is no > need > > and there is no need to use mindfulness for conservation of > energy > at > > all. > > > > > > kind rgds > > KC > > > > --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > > Hello Christine, all > > > > > > >Perhaps, as he hardly slept at all, this resting and abiding > in > > > >mindfulness was needed for conservation of energy and health > of > > > the > > > >aging rupa-kaya which supported him for the benefit all > beings? > > > I'm not sure about the support partâ€"perhaps!â€"but abiding in > > > mindfulness, the > > > natural manifestation of enlightenment, is a good way of > putting > > > what I was > > > suggesting. Certainly an end in itself, as well as being > > > instrumental to that > > > very end. > > > Okay, I'm satisfied with that answer (until someone shoots it > down > > > ;-) > > > metta, stephen > 16262 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jim and Nina, Thanks for the pali lesson, very interesting. For what it's worth, I can think of several other ways of interpreting this sentence, not found in the commentary. It could mean each of the four foundations is the same in some way, or the one "going" of the eightfold path is satipatthana. I would be interested in how you summarize the various comments in the commentary on ekaayano aya.m bikkhave maggo. Larry 16263 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm./Larry Thanks Christine, very interesting. Just to expand a bit, the way I read it attha is knowledge of results, dhamma is knowledge of conditions, nirutti is knowledge of language (how to explain the first two), and patibhana is knowledge of all kinds of knowledge (don't know what this could be). I wonder if there are philosophical terms for these four. Apparently they are lokuttara cittas. I couldn't find them in CMA. Anyone else know anything about this term, "pa.tisambhidaa"? Larry 16264 From: Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, I guess my point was that reading dhamma, and commentaries on dhamma, thinking about dhamma, talking about dhamma, writing about dhamma, attending dhamma talks, and applying these ideas to one's own experience amounts to dhammanupassana but I doubt if you will find anything in the suttas or commentaries about email list groups or flying to Bangkok to listen to a lecture. In other words, the details and particulars of a practice needn't be spelled out in the commentaries in order to be legitimate. Larry 16265 From: Frank Kuan Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:23pm Subject: sutta question, mn 43 page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" "vitality stands in dependence on heat." "what does heat stand in dependence on?" "heat stands in dependence on vitality." "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a circular definition." "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, for some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance is seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is seen in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality stands in dependence on heat and heat stands in dependence on vitality." ==================== any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't get it. -fk 16266 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi Frank, Let me give it a shot: radiance depends on flame: this means that the radiance would not exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no photons (photons = radiance). flame depends on radiance: this means that the radiance impinges on the eye sensitivity and conditions eye-consciousness. Multiple instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a concept called "flame". Both heat and radiance (visible object) are paramattha dhammas while both vitality and flame are concepts. Does this make any sense in the context of this Sutta? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > circular definition." > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, for > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance is > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is seen > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality stands > in dependence on heat and heat stands in dependence on > vitality." > ==================== > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't get > it. > > -fk > 16267 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:52pm Subject: invitation to join "Harvest" Buddhist E-Zine List Dear friends in Dhamma, "The Monthly Harvest" is a Buddhist-inspired free international E-Zine service hosted by Singapore's Panna Youth Centre. It serves as a fascinating and appealing way to reach out to the Buddhists living all around the world. We attempt to provide a monthly dosage of the Buddha-Dhamma through e-mails with Buddhist articles, inspirational stories, scripture quotations, prayer requests and the latest happenings & activities in Panna Youth Centre. Don't hesistate, get connected to us now and share this Good News with your friends today! To subscribe, simply send an e-mail to prajna-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Our wish is to spread the Buddha-Dhamma far & wide ! Yours in Noble Dhamma, Panna Youth Centre Cyber Ministry Harvest Electronic Magazine 2002 " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net 16268 From: rahula_80 Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 0:03am Subject: Vimuttattaa Hi, I am seeking experts' help to solve this problem. I posted this in my discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaliTrans/) and Robert Kirkpatrick suggest that I post it here. My comments or questions will be in //........// >> How do you translate this: Vimuttattaa .thita.m. .Thitattaa santusita.m. Santusitattaa na paritassati. ........ [SN XXII.54 / SN iii.54 / CDB i 891 (Bija Sutta)] << Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation: "[I]t is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: "[I]t is steady; by being steady it is content; by being content he is not agitated" Shakya Aryanatta's translations: Translation 1 "Stable is the deliverance of the soul; stable, the soul is content; the soul content, it is not agitated." Translation 2 "Fixed in emancipation in the Soul, quelled in fixation in the Soul, quelled within the Soul one is no longer stirred" // Is any of his translation correct? If no, why? // According to Shakya Aryanatta, Bhikkhu Bodhi mistranslate this passage, saying _it_ and _he_ are the pronouns Bhikkhu Bodhi uses to translate the suffix -attaa Lance Cousins, wrote in Buddha-L: "So the first sentence corresponds to Sanskrit: vimuktatvaat sthitam and so on. There is no atta/aatman here at all; it is the ablative singular of the suffix tta = tva. Bhikkhu Bodhi is indeed vindicated. " // Now, I am just learning Pali. So please forgive my mistake. According to Pali Primer by Lily de Silva, Lesson 9 The suffix -tvaa isadded to the root of the verb or verbal base with or sometimes without the connecting vowel -i- to form the gerung, absolutive or the indeclinable particle. So, shouldn't it be rendered, vimucitvaa, never vimuttattaa. (muc + i + tvaa)? Also, vimutta + tta = vimuttatta, NOT vimuttattaa. Right? If not, can you explain how vimuttattaa is derived? // // I found this while surfing the Net. Is it true? // " Absolutives in Pali are generally formed with the suffixes -tvaa and -ya. But there are traces of absolutives such as -taa, ttaa and - tu. The appearance of suffix -ttaa in Pali is probably due to the recensionists who, when converting earlier material to Pali, were confused on how to do it. For an example, we note the difference between chettaa and chetvaa, the former being probably the older Prakrit construction. It is quite out of place to suggest that the suffix of vimuttatta is -ttaa." ----------- According to PTS Dictionary p.632 Vimuttatta - having an emancipated self S III.46, 55, 58; A IV.428 // So, is the PTS Dictionary wrong?// ----------- I found this comment while surfing the internet.it was posted by Lee Dillion. "Stable is the deliverance of the soul; stable, the soul is content; the soul content, it is not agitated." I don't think this is a feasible rendering. 1) If vimuttattaa meant 'deliverance of the soul' (which it doesn't, but let's pretend for now), then it would be a tappurisa compound. Since such compounds take their gender from their last component, it would be, like attaa itself, masculine. The qualifying .thita would then need to be masculine, .thito. But in the quoted passage it takes a neuter inflection, .thita.m. 2) Being neuter, .thita.m cannot be qualifying vimuttattaa. It must in fact be qualifying vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), since there is no other neuter noun in the passage. The same goes for santusita.m and aparitassa.m, which are also neuter. Bodhi's rendering "It [i.e. consciousness] is liberated" is therefore correct. 3) In a 2-part tappurisa compound the item in the oblique case comes first. In the phrase 'deliverance of the soul' it is 'soul' that is oblique (genitive) and which must therefore precede the non- oblique 'deliverance'. The word would therefore be attavimutti, not vimuttattaa. Vimuttattaa cannot therefore mean 'deliverance of the soul'. 4) But even if it did, in which case is it inflected? It cannot be nominative as in your translation, since we have already established that vi~n~naa.na is the subject of the sentence. The only other -aa inflection available is the ablative singular. But in this passage no possible sense can be obtained by rendering "deliverance of the soul" as an ablative. 5) It would, however, make sense if we took vimuttattaa to be a bhaava-taddhita, that is, a gerundial derivative expressing state, condition or nature, formed with the suffix -tta and inflected in the ablative, expressing cause. Which is exactly what Bodhi does. Interestingly, the earlier translator of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya, F.L. Woodward, though sharing the atmavaadin views of Mrs. Rhys Davids, apparently did not regard this passage as one that could be doctored to support his views. His rendering is substantially the same as Bodhi's: "Without that platform, consciousness has no growth, it generates no action and is freed: by freedom it is steady: by its steadiness it is happy: owing to happiness it is not troubled." (Woodward, Kindred Sayings III 46) In one respect it actually seems better than Bodhi's: he doesn't make the awkward switch from "it" to "he". Shakya Aryanatta replied: 1) It doesn't says 'deliverance of the soul' rather deliverance (of the citta) into the soul. Vimuttattaa being a masculine nominative has nothing to do with the fact that .thita.m is accusative. Vimuttattaa is in the nominative. It's not refering to vinnana. 2) Thita.m is not qualifying vimuttattaa. Even Bhikkhu Bodhi translate vimuttattaa nominatively 3) Warder's section on "Abstract Nound" Page 252, is in error. 4) Iy is not established that vinnana is the subject of the sentence. It says when one's vinnana is unestablished that he is....he is.... 5) "gerundial derivative expressing state" Try to prove that. ------------- Also: 1. "Tadappatitthitam viññaa.nam avi- ruulham anabhisaªkhaccavimuttam. Vimuttattaa thitam. " Vimuttattaa is not modifying vinnana, its in a separate sentence. 2. The only thing called liberated in Upaya Sutta (also Bija Sutta) is vimuttattaa(liberated in the soul) 3. Sandhi rules is that vimutta + attaa (Nom.) = Vimuttattaa, dropping the last a on vimutta. // I check " An Elementary Pali Course" by Ven. Narada Thera. it seems that SA is correct. See Lesson XXIV, Rules of Sandhi. "........When two vowels come together, the preceding vowel is often dropped..." // // Is his opinion correct?// --------- // I have included below the passage in Pali. It could be found in Samyutta Nikaya, Khandavaggapaali, Chapter 1 (Khandasamyuttam) Section 45 & 46 http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html "… viññaa.nadhaatuyaa ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno raago pahiino hoti. Raagassa pahaanaa vocchijjataaramma.nam patitthaa viññaa.nassa na hoti. Tadappatitthitam viñña.nam aviruulham anabhisa"nkhaccavimuttam. Vimuttattaa thitam. Thitattaa santusitam. Santusitattaa na paritassati. Aparitassam paccattaññeva parinibbaayati................." Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation says: "When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbaana." Bhikkhu Thanissaro translation says: "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within." Thanks, Rahula 16269 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 2:37am Subject: A pleasant time with Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear All, Today is mid-Autumn Festival in Hong Kong and a holiday. We met Bhikkhu Bodhi by arrangement at mid-day and took him to meet Dr Ma and try yet another treatment for his serious headache condition. Both B.Bodhi and Dr Ma are very cheery and friendly by nature, so it turned out to be a pleasant and hopefully useful session. The diagnosis was quite different, I think, from any he has been given before. After the treatment we took B.Bodhi back to the apartment where he is staying with Brother Anthony and the Chinese Master who are also from Bodhi Monastery in the States. The Chinese Master was resting, but we spent well over an hour chatting and sipping tea with B.Bodhi and Br.Anthony. We heard about how B.Bodhi had been invited to visit Bodhi monastery, what a pleasant and suitable environment it was (and were shown pictures to prove it) and how content he was to be settling there. On this trip he will be winding up various affairs at the BPS in Kandy but will continue to play an advisory and semi-official role. The new President of BPS will be a Danish monk with useful administative skills. I believe he is already settled at the Forest Hermitage. The Chinese Master has a very keen interest and knowledge in the Chinese Tipitaka texts, including the Chinese Abhidhamma and commentaries and there is a lot of encuragement and support at the temple for B.Bodhi’s work with regard to Pali translation and his teaching of the dhamma based on the Pali canon. We had long discussions about the value and necessity of study of abhidhamma and commentaries and B.Bodhi seemed pleased and interested to hear about how much many of us on DSG value his translations of these as well as of the Suttas themselves. There was some brief discussion too about abhidhamma not being something separate from our life now and we all seemed in agreement on this. A couple of people had asked me to check about the complete Anguttara Nikaya translation and B.Bodhi said that he’s now completed Vol I. He said it takes about 5 years for each of the Nikayas, though AN is not as difficult as SN was. Many of his translations have been slowed down by the headache condition. Whilst working on the Brahmajala commentary, for example, he had had to stop for 9 months at one time for this reason. We also passed on to him a letter from a member in appreciation of all his writings and also a few other recent posts from the list which we thought might be of interest. If there’s anything anyone would particularly like to have drawn to his attention, pls let me know before Wednesday when one of us will take him to Dr Ma again. We also discussed the subject of different translations and internet access. As far as BPS is concerned, revenue from the sale of the full-length books is obviously essential to the BPS’s ability to keep publishing more works. We also discussed a little about pali texts and manuscripts, just touching on the question of the Pali manuscript Soma Thera would have used. He felt sure Soma Thera would have translated everything from this translation (Sinhalese Pali MN commentary??). We also mentioned that Nina and others appreciated being able to use his commentary translations and this is no problem at all, as long as the usual acknowledgements are made. I’m sure he’s very glad to know that they are useful in this way. ***** We’ve only ever met B.Bodhi a few times, but we always find it very easy to discuss with him whatever dhamma issues we wish, and we’re always made to feel at ease. We appreciate his kindness, modesty and lack of pride (factors which I mentioned the other day when discussing another teacher). We really hope we can help a little with his health problems as a means of repaying a small part of the great benefit we have receive from his translation work. Sarah ===== 16270 From: Frank Kuan Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi Rob, If that makes sense to you, more power to you. As for me, I won't be joining the wise men club anytime soon. :-) Maybe they'll let me in the wise guy or wise ass club. -fk --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Let me give it a shot: > > radiance depends on flame: this means that the > radiance would not > exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no > photons (photons = > radiance). > > flame depends on radiance: this means that the > radiance impinges on > the eye sensitivity and conditions > eye-consciousness. Multiple > instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a > concept > called "flame". > > Both heat and radiance (visible object) are > paramattha dhammas while > both vitality and flame are concepts. > > Does this make any sense in the context of this > Sutta? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan > wrote: > > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > > circular definition." > > > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, > for > > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance > is > > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is > seen > > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality > stands > > in dependence on heat and heat stands in > dependence on > > vitality." > > ==================== > > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't > get > > it. > > > > -fk > > > > 16271 From: Frank Kuan Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] A pleasant time with Bhikkhu Bodhi Bhikkhu Bodhi is my hero. His english translations of the pali suttas were the pivotal component of my sorting through the huge list of "buddhist" lineages and figuring out what's what and what is essential. Palms together, with great love and appreciation -fk --- Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > Today is mid-Autumn Festival in Hong Kong and a > holiday. We met Bhikkhu > Bodhi by arrangement at mid-day and took him to meet > Dr Ma and try yet > another treatment for his serious headache > condition. Both B.Bodhi and Dr > Ma are very cheery and friendly by nature, so it > turned out to be a > pleasant and hopefully useful session. The diagnosis > was quite different, > I think, from any he has been given before. > > After the treatment we took B.Bodhi back to the > apartment where he is > staying with Brother Anthony and the Chinese Master > who are also from > Bodhi Monastery in the States. The Chinese Master > was resting, but we > spent well over an hour chatting and sipping tea > with B.Bodhi and > Br.Anthony. > > We heard about how B.Bodhi had been invited to visit > Bodhi monastery, what > a pleasant and suitable environment it was (and were > shown pictures to > prove it) and how content he was to be settling > there. On this trip he > will be winding up various affairs at the BPS in > Kandy but will continue > to play an advisory and semi-official role. The new > President of BPS will > be a Danish monk with useful administative skills. I > believe he is already > settled at the Forest Hermitage. > > The Chinese Master has a very keen interest and > knowledge in the Chinese > Tipitaka texts, including the Chinese Abhidhamma and > commentaries and > there is a lot of encuragement and support at the > temple for B.Bodhi’s > work with regard to Pali translation and his > teaching of the dhamma based > on the Pali canon. We had long discussions about the > value and necessity > of study of abhidhamma and commentaries and B.Bodhi > seemed pleased and > interested to hear about how much many of us on DSG > value his translations > of these as well as of the Suttas themselves. There > was some brief > discussion too about abhidhamma not being something > separate from our life > now and we all seemed in agreement on this. > > A couple of people had asked me to check about the > complete Anguttara > Nikaya translation and B.Bodhi said that he’s now > completed Vol I. He said > it takes about 5 years for each of the Nikayas, > though AN is not as > difficult as SN was. Many of his translations have > been slowed down by the > headache condition. Whilst working on the Brahmajala > commentary, for > example, he had had to stop for 9 months at one time > for this reason. > > We also passed on to him a letter from a member in > appreciation of all his > writings and also a few other recent posts from the > list which we thought > might be of interest. If there’s anything anyone > would particularly like > to have drawn to his attention, pls let me know > before Wednesday when one > of us will take him to Dr Ma again. > > We also discussed the subject of different > translations and internet > access. As far as BPS is concerned, revenue from the > sale of the > full-length books is obviously essential to the > BPS’s ability to keep > publishing more works. We also discussed a little > about pali texts and > manuscripts, just touching on the question of the > Pali manuscript Soma > Thera would have used. He felt sure Soma Thera would > have translated > everything from this translation (Sinhalese Pali MN > commentary??). We also > mentioned that Nina and others appreciated being > able to use his > commentary translations and this is no problem at > all, as long as the > usual acknowledgements are made. I’m sure he’s very > glad to know that they > are useful in this way. > ***** > We’ve only ever met B.Bodhi a few times, but we > always find it very easy > to discuss with him whatever dhamma issues we wish, > and we’re always made > to feel at ease. We appreciate his kindness, modesty > and lack of pride > (factors which I mentioned the other day when > discussing another teacher). > > We really hope we can help a little with his health > problems as a means of > repaying a small part of the great benefit we have > receive from his > translation work. > > Sarah > ===== > > > 16272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] panna Dear Larry, this text is word by word very deep and not easy. The analytical aspect of satipatthana? In what sense? The characteristics of nama and rupa which appear are being investigated by panna, so that the true nature of them can be gradually penetrated. Do you call that analysis? Nina. P.S. Ayam belongs to maggo as Jim said and it is not neutre, sorry, my mistake. op 12-10-2002 19:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I was going to launch an extensive investigation of pa~n~naa and its > function in satipa.t.thaana including how satipa.t.thaana and the path > of purification go together but I think the following short paragraph > suffices for now. > > Visuddhimagga XXII par. 34: > > 'Foundation (pa.t.thaana)' is because of establishment (upa.t.thaana) by > going down into, by descending upon, such and such objects. Mindfulness > itself as foundation (establishment) is 'Foundations of Mindfulness'. It > is of four kinds because it occurs with respect to the body, feeling, > consciousness, and mental objects (dhamma), taking them as foul, > painful, impermanent, and not self, and because it accomplishes the > function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence, and > self. That is why 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' is said. [in the 37 > bodhipakkhiya dhamma] > > L: To me, this brings out that there is an analytical aspect of > satipatthana. 16273 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:58pm Subject: Pali frustration was [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Dear All, I am encountering difficulty in using the Pali-English Dictionary and the Pali alphabet. I have the Pali Alphabet by Ven. Narada printed off. But, as not only the initial letter of the word is sorted by this method,but also the internal letters in each word, I often give up before finding the meaning of a word. For example, in trying to understand the meaning of 'resort', I was looking up the meaning of the Pali word manopatisaranam. . I found the word Mano on p. 520 of the PED. but have either overlooked the complete word, or am looking in the wrong place. I then tried Buddhadatta's dictionary and found 'pa.tisara.na nt. shelter; help; protection", but, again, have no idea if this is related in any way. Has anyone written a dictionary for Pali words that follows the English alphabet? Nyanatiloka's, which does follow the English alphabet, has a very brief entry for 'mano'. metta, Christine 16274 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi Frank, Like Christine, I am also frustrated (but not for the same reason). I had a long detailed analysis typed out but the computer ate it and I don't have time to retype it all (remind you of Fermat's theorem?). In brief, I am not a "wise man", but I just happened to read a book written by a "wise woman" (Nina), "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". After reviewing Bhikkhu Bodhi's (a wise man) commentary, let me propose a paraphrased version of the troubling section of the sutta: What sustains the life-faculty rupa? It is kamma-born heat that sustains the life-faculty rupa. What sustains kamma-born heat? It is the life-faculty rupa that sustains kamma-born heat. Nina's book explains that the life faculty rupa, jivitindriya, is produced by kamma. Where does kamma come from? Kamma comes from the fact that we are living (as non-arahants). Frank, in case you are confused, this is not the same explanation as given below. I have changed my interpretation based on Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary. An indication of how "wise" I am :-) Thanks, Rob :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > Hi Rob, > If that makes sense to you, more power to you. As > for me, I won't be joining the wise men club anytime > soon. :-) Maybe they'll let me in the wise guy or wise > ass club. > > -fk > > --- robmoult wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > > > Let me give it a shot: > > > > radiance depends on flame: this means that the > > radiance would not > > exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no > > photons (photons = > > radiance). > > > > flame depends on radiance: this means that the > > radiance impinges on > > the eye sensitivity and conditions > > eye-consciousness. Multiple > > instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a > > concept > > called "flame". > > > > Both heat and radiance (visible object) are > > paramattha dhammas while > > both vitality and flame are concepts. > > > > Does this make any sense in the context of this > > Sutta? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan > > wrote: > > > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > > > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > > > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > > > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > > > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > > > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > > > circular definition." > > > > > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, > > for > > > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > > > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance > > is > > > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is > > seen > > > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality > > stands > > > in dependence on heat and heat stands in > > dependence on > > > vitality." > > > ==================== > > > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't > > get > > > it. > > > > > > -fk > > > > > > 16275 From: Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] panna L: "Visuddhimagga XXII par. 34: 'Foundation (pa.t.thaana)' is because of establishment (upa.t.thaana) by going down into, by descending upon, such and such objects. Mindfulness itself as foundation (establishment) is 'Foundations of Mindfulness'. It is of four kinds because it occurs with respect to the body, feeling, consciousness, and mental objects (dhamma), taking them as foul, painful, impermanent, and not self, and because it accomplishes the function of abandoning perception of beauty, pleasure, permanence, and self. That is why 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' is said. [in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhamma]" Hi Nina, I'm calling satipatthana analytical because of "taking them as foul, painful, impermanent, and not self". Maybe a better term would be judgemental or evaluative since, strictly speaking analysis is taking things apart and figuring out how they work. I'm contrasting this with an alternative way of understanding satipatthana which can be seen in the following words of B. Nananda in "Concept and Reality": "Then Bahiya, thus must you train yourself: 'In the seen there will be just the seen; in the heard, just the heard, in the sensed, just the sensed*; in the cognized, just the cognized. That is how, O Bahiya, you must train yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, in the seen there will be to you just the seen, in the heard ...... just the cognized, then Bahiya, you will have no 'thereby'; when you have no 'thereby', then Bahiya, you will have no 'therein'; as you, Bahiya, will have no 'therein' it follows that you will have no 'here' or 'beyond', or 'midway-between'. That is the end of all ill." M.A.P.C. 10 The first part of the exhortation presents succinctly the sum-total of sense-restraint, while the latter part interprets the philosophy behind it. This sense-restraint consists in 'stopping-short' at the level of sense-data without being led astray by them. He who succeeds in this has truly comprehended the nature of sense'data so that he no longer thinks 'in terms of' them ('na tena' = no 'therein'). He has thus transcended the superstitions of the gramatical structure as also the verbal dichotomy (nev'idha, na hura.m, na ubhayamantare = neither here nor beyond nor midway between'). In short, he has attained the Goal. As for Bahiya, he did attain the Goal, and that almost instantaneously, since he had developed his spititual faculties to such an extent in his own religious system, that - we are told in the sutta - he even entertained the illusion of being an arahant before he came to the Buddha. * 'Muta' stands for sense impressions received by smelling, tasting, and touching. L: I would say that the latter follows the former in that concepts of impermanence, unsatisfactoryness, and not self are abandoned in simple focus on nama or rupa without implications. What started this line of thought is my wondering whether the experience of a breath is satipatthana, is satipatthana with panna, and if with panna, what is the panna. My conclusion is that running down the street experiencing breathing isn't satipatthana unless there is a context of relinquishment; the same goes for sitting on a meditation cushion. Furthermore, bringing a satipatthana context to experience can (must?) be accomplished with reasoning. Any thoughts? Larry 16276 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Hi All (especially Nina), This discussion has started me wondering about something. The rupa jivitindriya is a subtle rupa; it does not impinge directly on the senses. It is also a "produced rupa" that can be known directly and therefore has a characteristic that can be directly known (suitable for the practice of insight). It would appear from this Sutta, that it is kamma-born heat that might be the characteristic of the rupa jivitindriya that can be directly known. So how does this work? Our body-sense detects that our body is warm and therefore we know that we are physically alive? Is there a concept involved (many instances of body-sense detecting of heat merged into a whole)? What about the other subtle rupas which are "produced"; masculinity, femininity and heart-base? What are the characterisitics that allow these rupas to be known directly? In the case of masculine / feminine, might it be a visible object? If this is the case, it must be a concept, right? For heart base, I suspect it might be the existence of nama (except for the sense consciousness cittas, all cittas with their cetasikas depend on the heart base). Comments? A year or so ago, I attended a day long talk on the Heart Sutta given by an Englishman who had been a Theravada monk for many years and then disrobed. During his talk, he said that he saw little value in the Abhidhamma "because it was not based on reality". He came to this sweeping generalization of a conclusion, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because he had asked his teacher how he could directly experience bhavanga in a meditation experience and his teacher had no answer. I have been mulling over this issue ever since. The predominant cetasika during bhavanga is jivitindriya. My comments above discuss how we might be able to detect the rupa jivitindriya, but how can we detect the cetasika jivitindriya? Any ideas? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Like Christine, I am also frustrated (but not for the same reason). > I had a long detailed analysis typed out but the computer ate it and > I don't have time to retype it all (remind you of Fermat's theorem?). > > In brief, I am not a "wise man", but I just happened to read a book > written by a "wise woman" (Nina), "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical > Phenomena". > > After reviewing Bhikkhu Bodhi's (a wise man) commentary, let me > propose a paraphrased version of the troubling section of the sutta: > > What sustains the life-faculty rupa? > It is kamma-born heat that sustains the life-faculty rupa. > What sustains kamma-born heat? > It is the life-faculty rupa that sustains kamma-born heat. > > Nina's book explains that the life faculty rupa, jivitindriya, is > produced by kamma. Where does kamma come from? Kamma comes from the > fact that we are living (as non-arahants). > > Frank, in case you are confused, this is not the same explanation as > given below. I have changed my interpretation based on Bhikkhu > Bodhi's commentary. An indication of how "wise" I am :-) > > Thanks, > Rob :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > If that makes sense to you, more power to you. As > > for me, I won't be joining the wise men club anytime > > soon. :-) Maybe they'll let me in the wise guy or wise > > ass club. > > > > -fk > > > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Let me give it a shot: > > > > > > radiance depends on flame: this means that the > > > radiance would not > > > exist if the flame did not exist. No fire = no > > > photons (photons = > > > radiance). > > > > > > flame depends on radiance: this means that the > > > radiance impinges on > > > the eye sensitivity and conditions > > > eye-consciousness. Multiple > > > instances of eye-consciousness are grouped into a > > > concept > > > called "flame". > > > > > > Both heat and radiance (visible object) are > > > paramattha dhammas while > > > both vitality and flame are concepts. > > > > > > Does this make any sense in the context of this > > > Sutta? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan > > > wrote: > > > > page 392: (paraphrasing for brevity) > > > > "what does vitality stand in dependence on?" > > > > "vitality stands in dependence on heat." > > > > "what does heat stand in dependence on?" > > > > "heat stands in dependence on vitality." > > > > "sariputta, what do you mean by that man? that's a > > > > circular definition." > > > > > > > > "in that case friend, i shall give you a simile, > > > for > > > > some wise men here pick up the meaning that way... > > > > just as when an oil lamp is burning, its radiance > > > is > > > > seen in dependence on its flame and its flame is > > > seen > > > > in dependence on its radiance; so too, vitality > > > stands > > > > in dependence on heat and heat stands in > > > dependence on > > > > vitality." > > > > ==================== > > > > any wise folks here understand the simile? I don't > > > get > > > > it. > > > > > > > > -fk 16277 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa --- Dear Rahula, I'll leave aside the discuusion of this paragraph and instead discuss the importance of anatta. It is not uncommon to come across translators who seize on a few sentences to support some unusual interpretation they have. That is why we should study widely and try to understand the meaning of the texts as a whole. On anatta this is very clear: For example the Visuddhimagga: 567 VRI Su~n~natekavidhaadiihiiti-ettha su~n~nato taava paramatthena hi sabbaaneva saccaani vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaabhaavato su~n~naaniiti veditabbaani. Teneta.m vuccati– "Dukkhameva hi, na koci dukkhito; kaarako na, kiriyaava vijjati; atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa; maggamatthi, gamako na vijjatii"ti. Translation from nanamoli xvi 90 ...As to void, single fold and so on: firstly, as to void: in the ultimate sense all the truths should be understood as void because of the absence of any experiencer, any doer, anyone who is extinguished and any goer. hence this is said: For there is suffering, but none who suffers; Doing exists although there is no doer; Extinction is but no extinguished person; Although there is a path there is no goer'"" Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > I am seeking experts' help to solve this problem. I posted this in my > discussion group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaliTrans/) and > Robert Kirkpatrick suggest that I post it here. > > My comments or questions will be in //........// > > >> How do you translate this: > > Vimuttattaa .thita.m. .Thitattaa santusita.m. Santusitattaa na > paritassati. ........ [SN XXII.54 / SN iii.54 / CDB i 891 (Bija > Sutta)] << > > Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation: > > "[I]t is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to > its contentment, it is not agitated. > > 16278 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate? Hi Norbu and also Eddie (Lou), Glad to see you've both 'broken the ice' on DSG. Hope you find it useful and we'll be glad to get to know you better if there's anything you'd like to share. --- Norbu wrote: > > perhaps Buddha's every moment is meditation itself. and when he sits > crossed legged, closed eyes he might be contemplating something > beyond the comprehension of our senses. > > norbu .... There have been some interesting comments on this theme. I think you make good points here. It is really impossible for us to imagine the extraordinary wisdom, knowledge and experience of the Buddha. From the recent extract in the Satipatthana Tika we read "Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom (pa~n~na bhavana)". In the Buddha's case the panna is fully developed and omniscient and whether sitting with eyes open or closed, walking, standing, eating or any other activity, there were conditions for panna, for all the discriminations (patisambhida)and for the highest jhanas according to what was appropriate or most beneficial(to others) at any given moment, as I understand. Hope to hear more about your interest in dhamma and where you both live. Sarah ====== 16279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A pleasant time with Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear Sarah, I enjoyed very much your report of your session with B.B. I am glad you told him that we appreciate his translations. I hope Dr Ma can help him, Nina op 14-10-2002 11:37 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > Today is mid-Autumn Festival in Hong Kong and a holiday. We met Bhikkhu > Bodhi by arrangement at mid-day and took him to meet Dr Ma and try yet > another treatment for his serious headache condition. Both B.Bodhi and Dr > Ma are very cheery and friendly by nature, so it turned out to be a > pleasant and hopefully useful session. 16280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, As the Co states, it goes solely to nibbana. Only Buddhas teach it. As the subco states, the other factors of the eightfold Path besides mindfulness are implied in satipatthana. In all the scriptures, satipatthana is always implied. Nina op 14-10-2002 01:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Dear Jim and Nina, > > Thanks for the pali lesson, very interesting. For what it's worth, I can > think of several other ways of interpreting this sentence, not found in > the commentary. It could mean each of the four foundations is the same > in some way, or the one "going" of the eightfold path is satipatthana. > > I would be interested in how you summarize the various comments in the > commentary on ekaayano aya.m bikkhave maggo. > > Larry > 16281 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:44pm Subject: Abhidhammist disagree with Dispeller of delusion?KEN O --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: I don't know the yardstick of one > definition of meditation but inside the "Dispeller of Delusion" there > is mention of meditation of the body parts in the section of > mindfulness. > > I wonder if any of the Abhidhammaist will disagree with what is > written in that section :) >kind rgds > KC > ++++++ Dear Ken O, Good to see you on the list. I was interested as to why you thought an "Abhidhammist" might disgree with the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of delusion; an Abhidhamma commentary)? The section in the Dispeller of Delusion is similar to that on samatha bhavana in the Visuddhimagga. All types of samatha are high levels of kusala: In http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri3.html (deeds of Merit) """Acharn Sujin S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death..... The citta which recollects the qualities of the Buddha is pure and it is inclined to practise the Dhamma as it has been taught by the Buddha. At such moments the citta is gentle, one will not hurt or harm someone else. There is mettaa and benevolence, one wishes happiness for everybody. When we are developing the inclination to mettaa and benevolence for others we should take care not to be absorbed in pleasant objects [35. We can prevent this by considering the foulness of the body, both of ourselves and of others [36. If we neglect considering this we may go the wrong way and have attachment and infatuation instead of pure loving kindness. In order to prevent the citta to pursue objects which are pleasant and lead to infatuation, we should recollect death which will come certainly. Nobody knows when death will come, whether it will come after a long time or very soon. If we always recollect death it will help us more and more not to be neglectful of kusala. The opportunity for birth as a human being is very rare and therefore we should develop every poassible kind of kusala....... ......In daily life it is difficult to develop calm to the level of attainment concentration, which is jhaana. However, there is still a way to prevent the citta from thinking of things which cause the arising of defilements. We can think of subjects which are the condition for purity of citta. These subjects are: recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa, consideration of the foulness of the body and mindfulness of death. """"endquote I must admit, though, that I tend to avoid the recollection of the foulness of the body - it interferes with my appreciation of the female form. Perhaps your reminders can help me to have more viriya in this type of kusala. Robertt 16282 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, > Dear Jim and Nina, > > Thanks for the pali lesson, very interesting. For what it's worth, I can > think of several other ways of interpreting this sentence, not found in > the commentary. It could mean each of the four foundations is the same > in some way, or the one "going" of the eightfold path is satipatthana. > > I would be interested in how you summarize the various comments in the > commentary on ekaayano aya.m bikkhave maggo. > > Larry I won't try summarizing the whole commentary on "ekaayano aya.m, bhikkhave, maggo" as it is just too long (over 4 pages in Pali) for me to tackle at this time as I'm not all that familiar with it. But I will try one for the various interpretations of 'ekaayano' as follows: 1. the only way, the one way 2. to be followed by oneself alone 3. the way of the (Blessed) one 4. the way in the one (dhamma and discipline) 5. the way to the one (nibbaana) The following interpretation is rejected for the reasons given in the commentary: 6. the one-time way, going once (saki.m ayano) The above points are given only after a preliminary reading of the material at hand both in English and Pali. No. 1, 4, & 6 are still not all that clear to me. It is no easy matter to understand what is actually being said and it's very easy to get bogged down in the details. Best wishes, Jim 16283 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: Pali frustration was [dsg] Re: sutta question, mn 43 Dear Christine, > Dear All, > > I am encountering difficulty in using the Pali-English Dictionary and > the Pali alphabet. I have the Pali Alphabet by Ven. Narada printed > off. But, as not only the initial letter of the word is sorted by > this method,but also the internal letters in each word, I often give > up before finding the meaning of a word. > > For example, in trying to understand the meaning of 'resort', I was > looking up the meaning of the Pali word manopatisaranam. this is all your fault Frank :) - I'm trying to understand the Sutta > that you are having trouble with, and found the > word "manopatisaranam" in the notes to this Sutta on p.1237 of the > MN>. I found the word Mano on p. 520 of the PED. but have either > overlooked the complete word, or am looking in the wrong place. I > then tried Buddhadatta's dictionary and found 'pa.tisara.na nt. > shelter; help; protection", but, again, have no idea if this is > related in any way. Has anyone written a dictionary for Pali words > that follows the English alphabet? Nyanatiloka's, which does follow > the English alphabet, has a very brief entry for 'mano'. I recently read that R.C. Childers' Pali Dictionary is based on the English order of letters. It was first published in 1872 and reprints are still available. One suggestion on how to become more familiar with the Pali order of letters is to memorize all 41 of them in the traditional order and be able to recite them with ease from memory. There are some differences in the dictionary order that have to be learnt though such as the niggahiita (.m) before ya ra la va sa ha eg. sa.msaara comes well before sa"nkhaara and la and .la are often mixed up together. If manopa.tisara.na was in the PED it would have been listed among the compounds under mano. I checked and it's not there. Thanks for your response to my reference to the parrot story. The story of the 500 bats was the one I was thinking of and the dog story was a new one. Best wishes, Jim 16284 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha - suffering/Howard Hi Howard & Christine, I understand and appreciate what you both write below about ‘finding a true kalyanamitta’ and the value of wise friendship. I rather like the saying Howard quotes below about the master appearing when the student is ready. As I understand it, anyone who gives good advice and support at times when one can appreciate it is a good friend. What is of most importance is the ability to listen and consider rather than any search with the usual expectations and attachments. “Just as a lake, deep, clear and still, even so, on hearing the teachings, the wise become exceedingly peaceful” Dhp 82. For example, how many of us can appreciate the good friend who points out our faults ‘as if indicating a treasure’? I know for myself that many opportunities for ‘good friedndship’ are lost because of the various kilesa which prevent the wise appreciation of the dhamma or pointing out of treasure. I also wonder a little, when we have the idea of looking for one who is wiser or has our spiritual welfare at heart, what the intents and motives are. Isn’t it rather like the discussion on metta, in that the concern should be with showing friendship and developing metta to others rather than in looking for friendship for oneself? Of course, as usual, the key is the intention and state of mind at the time and only wisdom will know whether it is wholesome or not. Just on a very mundane level, my students often talk about lack of friends or loss of friends or count their friends. Sometimes I suggest to them that instead of counting friends, perhaps they could count how many people they are friendly towards instead! Perhaps we can just do our best to be a good friend, rather than trying to gain good friends. “Metta has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of welfare. Its function is to prefer welfare. It is manifested as the removal of annoyance. Its proximate cause is seing lovableness in beings. It succeeds when it makes ill-will subside, and it fails when it produces selfish afection.” (Vism 1X, 93). Sarah ===== Howard wrote: Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/11/02 3:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > There are a very few people I look to as kalyanamitta - my judgment > is that they are much further along in the development of > understanding than I, and can be trusted to have my spiritual welfare > at heart when replying to questions, or giving advice. But your > phrasing sounds a little more formal ... and I wonder how you find > such a one. > ========================= Yes, I meant it formally. But I don't think finding a true kalyanamitta is easy. There's an old occultist saying: "When the student is ready, the master will appear". Perhaps that's so. Meanwhile, I suppose we can search within the Bhikkhu Sangha as a likely source. However, until a true kalyanamitta has been found we can take the Dhamma as our guide. That, together with our practice, is the true guide. With metta, Howard 16285 From: antony272b2 Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:30pm Subject: Re: Munindra-ji teachings Thanks Sarah, he sounds like a wonderful teacher. Ven Pannyavaro here in Sydney says he was his first vipassana teacher in Bodh Gaya. If I remember rightly he said Munindra-ji would teach mindfulness to village women doing their cooking and some of them developed insight. Thanks / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Antony, > > --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear List, > > > Does anyone have any teachings from Munindra-ji? > ..... > When I met Munindra, I was so impressed by his sweetness, kindness and > modesty that I had no interest in following other courses or teachers. > I think what I value most was his example of kindness, patience and > modesty and his encouragement to study and consider, rather than just > follow. Particularly for me at that time, coming from a Christian > background and having already studied psychology for an honours degree, > was the emphasis he'd make on not having to accept any part of the > teachings on blind faith, but to test and prove and question again and > again. Other meditation teachers did not share this emphasis. The other > big factor for me in those days was my social conscience and concern and > here we were in the poorest state in India. By his example, Munindra > helped me to have more confidence in being content with helping and > sharing as best one could at the present time, rather than making life so > complicated with ones grandiose schemes and proliferations about what else > one should be doing. I know he'd be very happy to see this sharing of > dhamma on DSG and other websites and discussion lists. > > Hope this helps and I'll be glad to hear the reason for your interest > sometime. It's been a pleasure to consider more. > > Sarah > ==== 16286 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jim, the Parrot, the Bats, the Dog, the Frog and the Flea (WAY 10) Hi Christine & Jim, Thank you Chris for your usual thorough research and rounding up of wise animals;-)) What I was particularly interested in (from Jim’s original post) was the suggestion that the parrot was developing satipatthana. In the other stories, we hear about an appreciation of ‘good’, but not a suggestion of any understanding of satipatthana which I believed was not possible in the animal realm. For example, in the frog and flea story, the frog only knew ‘this is good’. The commentary summary below is very interesting. I’ll be glad to hear any further clarification or examples. ..... > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" > > almost a full page has been omitted. The commentary explains here > that > > animals that depend on humans can also engage in the practice of > > satipatthana as illustrated by a story about a young parrot trained > by > > a mahatheri to contemplate on 'bone'. ..... Sarah p.s I hope Andrew got to see your fine round-up, Chris, given his love of animals too. ======================================== 16287 From: rahula_80 Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:06pm Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa Hi, > It is not uncommon to come across translators > who seize on a few sentences to support some unusual interpretation > they have. But this person, Shakya Aryanatta have not translated only a "few sentences" but suttas and the Commentarries. He also said that Visuddhimagga is not the Buddha's teaching! He is only interested in the Suttas. Rahula 16288 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Jim, Thank you for the further info on the point about (a)pilaapana- non-floating vs reciting. I followed your notes below and found the relevant lines in the sutta (Sotaanugatasutta, AN,1V, 191 PTS transl). I’m not able to make any intelligent comments about the Pali (Suan or Nina may), but will just make a few brief reflections: 1. The sutta (which I like very much and have quoted from before) is all about the importance of hearing, considering repeatedly and recalling what one has heard as a condition for direct wisdom to arise. “Those teachings heard with the ear...are thoroughly penetrated by view....” It reminds me of the discussion with Rob M on a few lines from Sabbasava Sutta and the recalling of past ‘good’ as a condition for wisdom. 2. I don’t have the Cone dict, but it seems that both it and PED give 2 meanings for (a) pilapanti/apilaapana. The first is reciting, repeating or recalling. The second (perhaps in the Cond dict??) is non-floating for apilaapana. 3. By recalling, there is ‘non-floating’......?? I know they are from 2 different forms. Jim, I’m clearly out of my depth here;-) It would seem to me that both meanings are correct in different contexts.I wouldn’t like to see the ‘non-floating’ meaning which makes sense and agrees with the commentaries as a definition of sati to be thrown out b.c. there is another meaning of reciting used in this and other suttas. Perhaps as Nanamoli suggests in this quote (which I gave before), it has one meaning usu. used in the commentaries and another commonly given in the suttas: ..... S: “In the Netti transl.by Nanamoli we are given this footnote: “ ‘Apilaapana -non-floating away’:Not as in PED for all Netti and similar refs. The word is the same as the abstract form apiilapanataa (i.e, a+pilaapana+taa:see PED) and is glossed by NettiA with ogaahana. the root is plu (to swim or float), not lap; see PED pilovati, and also CPD. Mindfulness is regarded as keeping in mind ‘anchored’ on its object and preventing it from ‘floating away’ from it.” “ More I can’t say and what I've said already is probably nonsense, but I find your comments v.interesting. ..... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Currently I don't have the article at hand so I'm just going mostly from > memory. The sutta is the Sotaanugatasutta (AN IV.191) but Norman > focusses on > just one short sentence as follows but you have to read it in the sutta > for > the context: > > Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadaani pi lapanti. (he quotes from the PTS. > ed. ***** On the other point: S: > > Jim, I just looked at SN43, Asankhatasamyutta which you referred to > as > > being 'somewhat confusing' in this light.I don't read there being many > > paths, but various aspects of the same path, eg 4 Foundations of > > Mindfulness, 4 Rt Efforts, Enlightenment Factors, 8fold path, > Faculties, > > Powers and so on. They are not alternatives as I understand but I > agree > > that taken on its own - especially the first segment - it is rather > > misleading. This is why I don't think suttas can be taken 'on their > own'. > J: > I once calculated that there are 1748 suttas (56x33) in this sa.myutta > which > only takes up a few pages. I'm reading here that there are 56 paths > leading > to nibbaaana (or one of its 32 synonyms). eg. samatha is a path, > vipassanaa > is another, the two together yet another, and so on. Perhaps the > explanation > (which Soma doesn't translate) in the Satipatthanasutta commentary on > how > the 4 satipatthanas taken together can be one path might help sort this > one > out. ..... As I understand, one path - that of the development of the 4 satipatthanas (or 5 khandhas as object of satipatthana). Accumultions being so different, objects of awareness and understanding and for example, development of samatha and its objects will be different for all - so a great number of combinations and variations. Still, only one path. Sarah ===== 16289 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttattaa Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > But this person, Shakya Aryanatta have not translated only a "few > sentences" but suttas and the Commentarries. > > He also said that Visuddhimagga is not the Buddha's teaching! He is > only interested in the Suttas. .... I think his views and emphasis on Suttas only is very common. Further, I think that those of us who appreciate the value of the Visuddhimagga, all other pali canon commentaries and the Abhidhamma are the unusual minority. We were discussing the importance of helping others to see the value of these yesterday with B.Bodhi. It's interesting to see your research and I appreciate the confidence you have in really considering the Teachings in depth. Perhaps you can encourage your friends to look at other translations which make more sense. I'm sure that those that consider carefully will see the pitfalls in any translation. Glad to read about your serious study of Pali and interest in dhamma, Sarah ====== 16290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 6 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no 6 When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of sati sampajañña. If someone has listened to the Dhamma and he is not inert but immediately gives up akusala, we can see that kusala viriya performs its function at that moment. When a certain type of akusala arises and after that there is sati sampajañña, it may realize the characteristic of kusala viriya which endeavours to refrain from anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking of refraining from anger. It arises at the moment of sati sampajañña, when there is energy or effort to realize the unwholesomeness of anger, and to realize that mettå is the opposite of anger. That is effort for forgiving, effort for mettå. At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, makes mistakes. Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away. However, feeling and remembrance, saññå, are conditions for being slow and inert in letting go of one¹s thoughts about circumstances and events and thus, there are conditions for the arising of akusala. There are different aspects and degrees of viriya which has been further developed: viriya which is a predominant factor (adhipati), a basis of success (iddhi-påda) (4), a faculty (indriya) or a power (bala). When viriya has not reached those degrees one cannot understand the characteristic of viriya that accompanies satipatthåna and that has become strong. As we have seen, viriya has been classified among the faculties, indriyas (leaders each in their own field). These are: the faculty of confidence, saddhå, the faculty of sati the faculty of paññå the faculty of energy, viriya the faculty of concentration, samådhi This shows us that the faculty of viriya arises together with confidence, sati, paññå and samådhi, and thus, this must be kusala viriya. Realities can be classified in different ways, for example, by way of the four bases of success, iddhi-påda (leading to enlightenment): wish-to-do (chanda) energy (viriya) citta investigation (vímamsa). Thus we see that there are different aspects of viriya. The cetasikas which are faculties are not indentical with the cetasikas which are bases of success. Such classifications are very detailed, but these show us that there can be kusala viriya of different degrees. Footnote 4. There are four realities which can be predominance-condition, adhipata-paccaya: wish-to-do (chanda), energy (viriya), citta, which stands for firmness of citta or concentration, and investigation which is paññå (vímamsa). The same four factors can also be classified as bases of success, iddhi-påda. They are among the factors pertaining to enlightenment. 16291 From: jinavamsa Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana hello Nina and Larry and all, It is typically worthwhile for me to go back to the Sutta here and its cmy. So this posting is a stimulus or invitation for me to do so again. Thank you. I wonder that if only Buddhas teach this teaching, then what are other people doing when they teach this teaching? I see that the "one way" (ekaayana) is called the way of the one (or of the best or of the Buddha), but does that imply here that only a buddha/Buddha can relay this to others? I see a variety of renderings of ekaayana, or interpretations of why this way is called the one way, such as that one must walk it oneself, that it goes in only direction (like a one-way street) or to one destination, ... I am wondering about the teaching of Culla Naaga to his teacher Culla Summa. esp. the quotations there from the Pa.tisambhidaa Magga. Would you (or anyone) like to comment on that passage, with the background idea that this Way is the preliminary part and not a mixed way? thank you for all comments and clarifications, Jinavamsa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > As the Co states, it goes solely to nibbana. Only Buddhas teach it. As the > subco states, the other factors of the eightfold Path besides mindfulness > are implied in satipatthana. > In all the scriptures, satipatthana is always implied. > Nina > op 14-10-2002 01:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: 16292 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Frustration with Pali, etc Michael (Mike O)asked us to share the following: ................................................. --- Michael Olds wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 > Hello, > > You might direct your reader's attention to the existance of an on-line > PED > at: > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > and a downloadable version at: > > http://www.nibbanam.com/dict.htm > > which can be searched using one's search tool (taking care of problems > remembering the sequence of letters by way of using cut and paste if one > is > searching an on line text, or by just typing in the word in the search > tool; > one does need to learn to recognize compounds and when to use and or > change > prefixes and suffixes, but this tool will actually speed that learning > process), where here the word: pa.tisara.na would have been found on > page > 401. > > > Best Wishes! > Michael Olds > Los Altos California > http://www.BuddhaDust.org 16293 From: Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Thanks Nina and Jim for your summaries. Here are a few additional remarks. Why teach this sutta? because of the ability of the Kuru to take in deep doctine. The Kuru are happy, with healthy mind and body (due to perfect climate) and have the power of knowledge. QUESTION: what is "power of knowledge"? QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in arahantship, in 21 places" mean? Kuru were earnest in application of satipatthana to their daily life. COMMENT: not just secluded meditation. There was social prssure for everyone to do it, even servants, no useless talk at gathering places. COMMENT: it was a practice, not just an activity that may or may not arise. Those who didn't practice were told, "Your life is shameful; though you live you are as if dead." Ekayana = single way, not double. QUESTION: Does this imply that samatha and vipassana go together? or that there is one "way" in the 4 arousings? Ekayana = going alone. This means without companions, abandoning the crowd and withdrawn from craving through tranquility of mind. COMMENT: Tranquility is definitly a factor in satipatthana and it is characterized as aloneness. Ekayana = way of the one, i.e., the Buddha, because he creates it; it exists only in his doctrine-and-discipline. "Only in this doctine-and-discipline is the 8-fold way to be found." COMMENT: 8-fold way is equated with satipatthana as ekayana. Ekayana = goes to the one, i.e., nibbana. Nibbana is without a second in not having any accompanying quality such as desire. This means, "Truth is one; it is without a second." When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire 8-fold path is practiced? Ekayana does NOT in this sutta mean one goes to nibanna only once. The way that is described here is repeated many times. "In this instruction the earlier part of the path is intended." Earlier = mundane (lokiya). This is because it is repeated many times for up to 7 years. COMMENT: The supramundane path (lokuttara magga) is the goal this path leads to. In what sense is it a 'way'? It is a way in that it goes toward nibbana and it is the way one _should_ go toward nibbana. The elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only what they liked. They took up what was rational and gave up what was not. COMMENT: Elders can be wrong. Reason settles the disagreement. The preliminary part of the way of mindfulness is called the only way. Preliminary (mundane) part = 8-fold path, 4 truths, & dispassion which is the best possession of the wise. "Walk along that way so that you may confound death and put an end to suffering." Larry 16294 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 12, Comm./Larry Hi Larry (& Chris), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks Christine, very interesting. Just to expand a bit, the way I read > it attha is knowledge of results, dhamma is knowledge of conditions, > nirutti is knowledge of language (how to explain the first two), and > patibhana is knowledge of all kinds of knowledge (don't know what this > could be). I wonder if there are philosophical terms for these four. > Apparently they are lokuttara cittas. I couldn't find them in CMA. > Anyone else know anything about this term, "pa.tisambhidaa"? ..... You may wish to review the thread of posts on patisambhida between Num and Nina under Patisambhidamagga 1, 2 etc. These are based on the text of the same name (Path of Discrimination) from the Khuddhakanikaya, Sutta Pitaka and was expounded by Ven Sariputta. The following are in Useful Posts under: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Patisambhidamagga (Path of Discrimination) 14156, 14178, 15064 Note that while the 'well-discriminated' wisdoms (patisambhida) only refer to the wisdom of an ariyan, they are not lokuttara cittas, which as we've discussed refer to the 8 lokuttara magga and phala cittas only. This is a very complex area. Hopefully Num will be adding more detail in due course. Sarah ======= 16295 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:47am Subject: Hiri, Ottappa, Dukkha and Satipatthana Dear Erik, Rob M, Chris, WL & All, --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Aw heck, just a couple of brief comments now. Regret for past > misdeeds of either comission or omission are part & parcel of hiri & > ottapa, and regret is an important factor when it serves the purpose > of spurring one to further development, as has my regret for not > having practiced as diligently as I could have (due to sheer > laziness). If it hinders progress as kukucca, that is an entirely > different story. That is not the case here. ..... These comments encouraged me to consider more on hiri (moral shame) and ottappa (moral dread of the results of wrong doing), along with those in B.Bodhi’s in his article on hiri and ottappa which Rob M also referred to: > "Guardians of the World" by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/guardians_of_the_world.htm ***** In particular, I’ve been considering more about their characteristics in connection with discussions on dukkha. Lack of shame or hiri (ahirika) and lack of wise concern for the consequences (anottappa) arise with every akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness). In other words, with every moment of ignorance there is a lack of shame about it and so with every moment of attachment, however subtle and with every moment of aversion. They relate, therefore, to the present consciousness, rather than the past. Of course, it’s possible to have moments of wise reflection about past unwholesome deeds and actions and in this case it will be accompanied by hiri and ottappa, but usually, when reflecting on the past, it is bound to be with moha, lobha or dosa. Any time there is no dana, sila or bhavana, it will be unwholesome. We may feel we wish to develop these sobhana (beautiful) mind states of hiri and ottappa and read that they ‘these two bright states protect the world’ and without them we would all be living immorally (AN, 2s, 1-9. However, they can only be developed by understanding the difference between wholesome and unwholesome states of mind and by seeing the danger in the latter, however subtle. In other words, understanding is the forerunner of kusala states and ignorance is the forerunner of akusala states as shown in The Knowledge Sutta, Itivuttaka, Double items, 40, Masefield transl: ..... “This, unquestionably - so has there been heard by me - was stated by the Lord, was stated by the Arahant, viz. “Ignorance, monks, is the forerunner in the attainment of unskilled states, an absence of shame and a fear of reproach its follower; whilst knowledge, monks, is the forerunner in the attainment of skilled states, a sense of shame and a fear of reproach its follower”. This matter the Lord did state; it was in connection therewith that this was so stated: “Whatever miserable destinies there be in this world and the other are all rooted in ignorance, being accumulations by way of want and greed; Due to which one becomes one whose wanting is evil, one lacking a sense of shame, one lacking regard, whereby one pursues that which is evil, goes as a result to a state of loss. Therefore, the monk, in ridding himself of lust for wanting, greed and ignorance, in giving rise to knowledge, renounces all miserable destinies”.” ***** We read about the internal and external references or causes for hiri and ottappa, but they always arise together and refer to the present consciousness. In ‘Cetasikas’: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html Nina refers to the Paramattha Manjusa (commentary to Visuddhimagga) which compares shamelessnes (ahirika) to ‘a domestic pig which does not abhor filth.’ and recklessness (anottappa) to ‘a moth which is attracted to the fire’. Usually there is ignorance about the unclean or filthy nature of defilements and no understanding of the danger of them. The problems in the world, the lack of general appreciation of the ‘filth’ or ‘danger’ of unwholesomeness, is no different today than it’s ever been. Ignorance has always been the forerunner even though, as Christine has pointed out, it can be difficult when we are faced with problems in the world or others’ suffering to accept ‘kamma and anatta’ or to accept that the disturbance or grief we feel for others at these times is really an indication of the clinging to our own pleasant feelings and experiences. I found the following paragraph from Perfections, (Energy, ch 6) a helpful reminder on this point: “It must be paññå which sees the difference between the city of bandits and the city of peace. The city of peace is calm, whereas the city of bandits means disturbance, confusion and restlessness. So long as there is wrong view which takes realities for self, being or person, one cannot be free from restlessness, disturbance and worry. Thus, one should understand that all defilements and dukkha are bound up with one’s ‘own person’, which actually are nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas.” ***** In other words, we think we are grieving for others - the deceased, the injured, the harmed - but really it is the accumulated aversion which grieves the loss of pleasant feelings at these times I believe. Understanding even just a little about kamma and anatta doesn’t mean any less concern or consideration or assistance for others’ suffering, quite the reverse. With more understanding, acceptance and equanimity, accompanied by ‘the guardians of the world’, hiri and ottappa, there will be more conditions to act wisely and with less consideration for oneself and ones own feelings. there will be less disturbance or anxiety on account of the past or present lack of greater assistance or noble qualities. As we have just read in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (Way 12, comm, the only way to overcome grief is by the development of mindfulness of the objects of satipatthana: ..... “Sokaparidevanam samatikkamaya = "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation." If this Way is developed it will lead to the casting out of sorrow similar to that experienced by the Minister Santati, and the casting out of lamentation similar to that of Patacara. With analytical knowledge did Santati reach arahantship after hearing this stanza: Purge out the things belonging to the past; Let there be naught in the world to rise in future times. If what's twixt past and future you don't grasp, You will be one who wanders forth serene.[11] Patacara reached the fruition of the first stage of arahantship after hearing the following: For one who is by death oppressed there is No safety seen in children, father, friends Or others close to one. A shelter true Amongst one's kinsfolk one does never find.[12] Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness.” ***** Finally, WL made some very helpful comments about coninuing “the journey on our own” and about the understanding of anatta being “the key to that understanding of the cause” of our problems. He also wisely said at the end of his post: ..... >It's only > through experience that we'll come to truth. Also, showing > people truth takes teamwork by many people, some people > serves as the teacher, some as translators, some as scholars. > You will find the path you will be taking by looking at >yourself, understanding your inclination. ..... I appreciate all for the reminders and teamwork here. Let me just repeat once more from Way 12, comm: ..... “Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness.” ***** Sarah ====== 16296 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:53am Subject: Pali frustration was [dsg] To Christine Dear Christine How are you? Which edition of Majjhimanikaayo 43 were you using? In Section 455 Mulapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaayo, in the Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, the reading is "mano pa.tisarana.m" instead of "manopa.tisaranam". The context of the passage is an answer to the question "ki.m pa.tisarana.m?". The answer is "Mano pa.tisarana.m". Therefore, "mano" is the subject of the answer sentence. It is not the compound "manopa.tisarana.m". Please look up "pa.tisarana.m" in the first column on page 401 in PTS PED. Please kindly check the edition of your Pali text. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear All, I am encountering difficulty in using the Pali-English Dictionary and the Pali alphabet. I have the Pali Alphabet by Ven. Narada printed off. But, as not only the initial letter of the word is sorted by this method,but also the internal letters in each word, I often give up before finding the meaning of a word. For example, in trying to understand the meaning of 'resort', I was looking up the meaning of the Pali word manopatisaranam. . I found the word Mano on p. 520 of the PED. but have either overlooked the complete word, or am looking in the wrong place. I then tried Buddhadatta's dictionary and found 'pa.tisara.na nt. shelter; help; protection", but, again, have no idea if this is related in any way. Has anyone written a dictionary for Pali words that follows the English alphabet? Nyanatiloka's, which does follow the English alphabet, has a very brief entry for 'mano'. metta, Christine 16297 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:15am Subject: The D.C. Sniper --- Robert Epstein wrote: Dear Friends, I am in the Washington, D.C. area, and Sarah was kind enough to write me privately and to ask how I and my family were getting along, given the recent 'random shootings' by an unknown sniper. He has killed 9 people so far, and wounded 2, usually while they were outside their cars near a highway. I wrote back to Sarah, and we thought it might make an interesting topic for the group. Here is my reply to Sarah: ================ Hi Sarah. Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, the sniper attacks are 'right around the corner' for all D.C. folk. It is quite disconcerting, BUT luckily for a Buddhist type person it can be used as a reminder of both impermanence and the inherent insecurity and lack of control that this reality has. I find that being mindful of the potential to be shot at any moment, as unlikely as it is, is a bracing invitation to enter the moment fully, and to inhabit the full possibility of cause and effect that it represents. It is sort of like the 'dead body' exercise that some Buddhists do in monastery, contemplating impermanence and unsatisfactory nature of the physical life. While it is not pleasant, it brings out the aversion to unpleasantness, doesn't it? So I am trying to stay with this kind of scrutiny a bit. I am of course, practically concerned for myself and family, and try to avoid certain situations which might be dangerous, but we have also kept sending Emmy to her preschool, kept up some normal routines, and even gone to a playground and outing or two that seemed reasonable. So I think there's a good balance of discernment and action, as much as we're capable of. I don't want to underplay the tension that this situation creates, only that the teachings are helpful in urging me to 'embrace' the situation and use it to be more fully present in the moment, and live the moment rather than run away from it. Best, Robert Ep. 16298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subtle rupas Dear Rob M, see below op 15-10-2002 00:27 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The rupa jivitindriya is a subtle rupa; it does not impinge directly > on the senses. It is also a "produced rupa" that can be known > directly and therefore has a characteristic that can be directly > known (suitable for the practice of insight). It would appear from > this Sutta, that it is kamma-born heat that might be the > characteristic of the rupa jivitindriya that can be directly known. > So how does this work? Our body-sense detects that our body is warm > and therefore we know that we are physically alive? Is there a > concept involved (many instances of body-sense detecting of heat > merged into a whole)? N: The jivitindriya rupa arises in a group of rupas produced by kamma, only in living beings. In that group is also the great Element of heat, and jivitindriya and heat condition one another by way of conascence and other conditions. Should we try to be aware of jivitindriya? Does it appear naturally to the sati without directing it? Why should we try? There are coarse rupas which appear all the time: the rupas impinging on the sensedoors. It is already difficult enough to know these as they are. We have to be careful with the study of the Abhidhamma. There is a warning in the Atthasalini. If people try to know directly all dhammas taught in the abhidhamma, it can possibly lead to unbalance of mind. >R: What about the other subtle rupas which are "produced"; masculinity, > femininity and heart-base? What are the characterisitics that allow > these rupas to be known directly? In the case of masculine / > feminine, might it be a visible object? If this is the case, it must > be a concept, right? N: same as above. They are rupas, not concepts. We can think about such rupas, after seeing we know this is a man, a woman. But why should we try to be aware of them directly? That is not the way. R: For heart base, I suspect it might be the > existence of nama (except for the sense consciousness cittas, all > cittas with their cetasikas depend on the heart base). Comments? N: You are right. We can think of the heartbase, but who can know it directly? It is useful to learn details about rupas because it helps us to see the manifold conditions for what we call human being. We learn to see it as a puppet. If we think that all realities we learn about should be directly known, our study can become full of stress. Satipatthana: awareness of any nama or rupa, without trying or directing. There should not be any thought of I should know this particular kind of rupa. Satipatthana is the one and only way, because it is for all kinds of people with diverse accumulations. For people who do not cultivate jhana and for those who have accumulations for jhana. Also for laypeople who have their daily work. For people with defilements: citta with lobha and dosa, even of strong degrees can be object of awareness so that we learn that they are conditioned namas. See the third Application of Mindfulness: seeing citta in citta. When someone who is dear to us has died we may be overcome by sadness. There are namas and there are also rupas conditioned by citta, by feeling. But we should not try to pinpoint them, then we are thinking again. Much less could we try to experience heartbase. If we try, we make our study and practice needlessly complicated. But when we know that our foremost duty is satipatthana it can condition sati in between sadness. I was overcome by sadness yesterday, when attending the funeral service of our Queen's husband Prince Claus in the church in Delft. Much more than in the case of a family member. Our discussions on ekaayano maggo, the only way, is a helpful reminder of our foremost duty in such and other situations. The Buddha taught satipatthana to help people. If we remember our first and foremost duty, the Buddha has not taught satipatthana in vain for us. R: > A year or so ago, I attended a day long talk on the Heart Sutta > given by an Englishman who had been a Theravada monk for many years > and then disrobed. During his talk, he said that he saw little value > in the Abhidhamma "because it was not based on reality". He came to > this sweeping generalization of a conclusion, throwing the baby out > with the bathwater, because he had asked his teacher how he could > directly experience bhavanga in a meditation experience and his > teacher had no answer. I have been mulling over this issue ever > since. The predominant cetasika during bhavanga is jivitindriya. My > comments above discuss how we might be able to detect the rupa > jivitindriya, but how can we detect the cetasika jivitindriya? N:Bhavangacitta has a characteristic, but who can be aware of it? There is not only jivitindriya cetasika with the bhavangacitta, but also other cetasikas. I have not heard that this cetasika is predominant. A. Sujin explained: when there is bhavangacitta no object appears, there is nothing. Bhavangacitta has its own object but it is hidden. Then, when an object impinges on one of the doorways, an object appears, this is different from the moment of bhavanga. Can we try to detect it? No. That is not the answer. Thus, again, visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, feeling, lobha, dosa, are appearing time and again, and these are already difficult to know for us. Nina. 16299 From: Peter DaCosta Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cemetery Contemplations christine_forsyth wrote: Hi Antony, and all, Thanks for your interesting post - it raises a few problems for me however. 2. (i) The strength of the words used in buddhism often seems 'over the top', and makes it more difficult upon reflection to apply to oneself. For example, "lust" to me means something like "inordinate craving and passionate sinful desire. Something that obsesses the mind." I clearly have a problem understanding what lust, hate, greed means in a buddhist sense as it applies to ordinary daily life. metta, Christine Hi Christine For the practice of applying any Pali contemplation to daily life to have any value, an open mind for the entire range of meaning is important, so that what ever was appropriate for any situation could be called upon, depending on the context of time and place. For most people, in most situations, the extreme end of the scale would be seldom if ever applicable, but in moment to moment awareness in the general flow of everyday life, the most subtle interpretations are very often the most useful. An experimental approach is probably the most useful. Cheers Peter peterd@p... 16300 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:28pm Subject: Re: The D.C. Sniper Dear RobEp, Sarah, and All, Rob, I'm thinking of you with metta - may you and your loved ones be safe and protected. My daughter was in Washington on the first weekend the sniper struck, but is 'home safe' now. So all the worry about what might have happened to her there and to the plane on the way home was pointless. As you say - learning to live with impermanence, uncontrollability, and in the present moment is so important (but so difficult, I think). The most chilling thing about the sniper in Washington, and the incident most affecting Australians at this moment - the bombing in the holiday playground, Bali - is that inoffensive 'good' people going about normal happy daily activities die when least expecting it. Not at a semi-predictable point in a life cycle - many of the dead and missing in Bali are superbly fit and healthy young footballers on 'reward' trips for being the Champion team of the Season. Death came not from an 'accident', not from chronic illness, not because 'they deserve it' - it was the random, uncontrollable, choice of another. We imagine we can delay or deflect other eventualites. But what difference would it make if my son or daughter died from slipping in the shower? - it is just as heart breaking and unexpected as a bullet or bomb. There seems to be no meaning, no reason why or when one particular individual dies... No reason why one dies over another. Buddhists look to kamma for explanation. I find it difficult to tease out the role of kamma from fatalism. Where is there safety? There is none. How can I protect my dear ones? I can't. Throughout life, I constructed an imaginary wall of safety around myself and my children with 'Look both ways before crossing the street", "Wash your hands before eating", "Don't talk to strangers", "Don't put the knife in the toaster while it is turned on", "Yes, you must have your scheduled immunisation to protect you from disease", "Don't drive with anyone who has been drinking alcohol", 'Eat a healthy diet, exercise well" --- All those in Bali, and all the snipers victims would have done these things. There is no safety. All of us will die of something - old age, disease, accidents, or violence - and always too soon. The difficulties surrounding the practice of the Cemetery contemplations were recently highlighted, but Maranasati (Mindfulness of Death) may present another avenue for destoying complacency and worry, emphasising the need to live only in the present moment, and sensitising us to the rarity of this human birth and our incredible good fortune in having in access to the Dhamma. Just to underline the urgent need for study and practice, and the commonplace occurrence of death - over 200,00 people of all ages (and staggeringly countless numbers of Other Beings) will cycle out of this life TODAY on planet Earth. Very few of them will think they have lived long enough, or be prepared to go. There will still be so much they had intended to do. Just as they are ... so indeed am I. And so the round continues..... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Friends, > I am in the Washington, D.C. area, and Sarah was kind enough to write me privately > and to ask how I and my family were getting along, given the recent 'random > shootings' by an unknown sniper. He has killed 9 people so far, and wounded 2, > usually while they were outside their cars near a highway. > > I wrote back to Sarah, and we thought it might make an interesting topic for the > group. Here is my reply to Sarah: > > ================ > > Hi Sarah. > Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, the sniper attacks are 'right around the > corner' for all D.C. folk. > > It is quite disconcerting, BUT luckily for a Buddhist type person it can be used > as a reminder of both impermanence and the inherent insecurity and lack of control > that this reality has. > > I find that being mindful of the potential to be shot at any moment, as unlikely > as it is, is a bracing invitation to enter the moment fully, and to inhabit the > full possibility of cause and effect that it represents. It is sort of like the > 'dead body' exercise that some Buddhists do in monastery, contemplating > impermanence and unsatisfactory nature of the physical life. > > While it is not pleasant, it brings out the aversion to unpleasantness, doesn't > it? So I am trying to stay with this kind of scrutiny a bit. > > I am of course, practically concerned for myself and family, and try to avoid > certain situations which might be dangerous, but we have also kept sending Emmy to > her preschool, kept up some normal routines, and even gone to a playground and > outing or two that seemed reasonable. So I think there's a good balance of > discernment and action, as much as we're capable of. > > I don't want to underplay the tension that this situation creates, only that the > teachings are helpful in urging me to 'embrace' the situation and use it to be > more fully present in the moment, and live the moment rather than run away from > it. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > 16301 From: azita gill Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate?and not ride horses --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Norbu and also Eddie (Lou), > > > .... > There have been some interesting comments on this > theme. I think you make > good points here. It is really impossible for us to > imagine the > extraordinary wisdom, knowledge and experience of > the Buddha. > > > hello all and esp. Sarah, I appreciate your usually very clear comments, and the seemingly lge. amounts of energy you put into dsg. ta muchly. < I relate to KenH, regarding sending mail, so much goes round and round in my head, and that's as far as it goes. However, this one seems quite clear to me. The Buddha, like us, had accumulations, and as you say, was an extraordinary being. We read about his life just before he became the Buddha, how he spent a long time doing austere practices, meditation being a big part of that. After enlightenment, he taught the ppl for many hours, but when that was finished, he didn't have the accumlations to go ride horses for example. So he went and did what he was good at - meditating - and as someone wrote before, maybe that was a perfect way for him to rest, to be refreshed for the next day's teaching. I almost can't imagine how wise the Buddha really was; and 'I' really want to be in the front row when the next Buddha is around. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > 16302 From: azita gill Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The D.C. Sniper --- Robert Epstein wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > I am in the Washington, D.C. area, and Sarah was > kind enough to write me privately > and to ask how I and my family were getting along, > given the recent 'random > shootings' by an unknown sniper [snip] > an interesting topic for the > group. Here is my reply to Sarah: > > ================ > > Hi Sarah. > Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, the sniper > attacks are 'right around the > corner' for all D.C. folk. > > > Dear Robert, thanks for writing about these unsettling events. One of my daughters has taken a job in the Middle East, in U.A.E. and given the current issues in the world, I have been feeling a bit nervous for her. Like you, I feel that Buddha's teachings sure help in times like this. I wrote the following to Abby [daughter]: > 'I am the owner of my actions, heir of my < actions. I am born of my actions. I am < related to my actions and I have my actions < as my refuge. Whatever I do, good or evil, < of that I will be the heir' < Ang.Nik 5[57] > > > Cheers, Azita > 16303 From: Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:37pm Subject: patisambhidha magga Hi Sarah and Christine, In reading a little in Visuddhimagga XIV this is how I see it, corrections welcome. The 4 Discriminations (translated as "analytical knowledge" by Soma Thera) are classed under 'kinds of knowledge' and could be considered as the (or *a*) path that aryans follow. Nyanamoli gives this definition: Patisanbhidha is usually rendered by 'analysis' (see e.g. "Points of Controversy - Kattavatthu" translation pp. 377ff). But the Tipitaka explanations of the four patisambhidha suggest no emphasis on analysis rather than synthesis. Pm. gives the following definition of the term: 'Knowledge that is classified (pabheda-gata = put into a division) under the meaning (attha) as capable of effecting the explanation and definition of specific characteristics of the meaning class (meaning division) is called "attha-patisambhidha"; and so with the other three' (Pm 436). 'Discrimination' has been chosen for patisambhida because while it has the sense of 'division' it does not imply an opposite process as 'analysis' does. Also it may be questioned whether the four are well described as 'entirely logical': 'entirely epistomological' might perhaps be both less rigid and nearer; for they seem to cover four interlocking fields, namely: meanings of statements and effects of causes (etc.), statements of meanings and causes of effects (etc.),language as restricted to etymological rules of verbal expression, and clarity (or perspicuous inspiration) in marshalling the other three. L: In other words, both knowledge of paramattha dhammas and knowledge of concepts is the domain of this field. I'm sure you won't like this but what popped into my head was an academic career with a sotapanna receiving his phd and a professor finally gaining tenure as equivalent to arahantship. :)) At any rate it is a very high level of both teaching and learning. Also it might somewhat clarify things to relate the four discriminations (result, cause, language, and all) to the four satipatthanas (body, feeling, consciousness, and dhammas). It may answer the question what is satipatthana like for a sotapanna. Vism. XIV par 32: How is it developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the *soil* of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely Purification of Virtue and Purification of Consciousness, are its *roots*, while the five purifications, namely, Purification of view, Purification of Overcoming Doubt, Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What is the Path and What is not the Path, Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way, and Purification by Knowledge and Vision, are the Trunk. Consequently one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the *soil* after he has perfected the two purifications that are the *roots*; then he can develop the five purifications that are the *trunk*. Larry 16304 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Jim (& Suan), Bhikkhu Bodhi added a few comments to this thread on 'apilaapana' which he mentioned I was welcome to send to DSG. (I've added a few of Jim's comments at the end for those who may have forgotten what this is about.): ..... From Bhikkhu Bodhi =================== Dear Sarah and Jonothan, Here are a few comments relating to the pages you gave me from the Dhamma Study Group. (1) ‘apilaapana’: The corresponding word in the Sanskrit Abhidharma texts is ‘abhilaapana’, with a verb ‘abhilaapati’. This would mean ‘to address’, in the sense of reminding, which corresponds closely to sati’s meaning of memory; it also imples reinforcing one’s awareness of one’s present experience, and thus ties up with the sense of mindfulness. For a discussion of this problematic word in the two traditions, see the essay "The Scope of Sm.riti [= Sati] from Early Buddhism to the Sarvastivada Abhidharma," by Colette Cox, in Janet Gyatso, ed., In the Mirror of Memory: Reflections on Mindfulness and Remembrance in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism. This volume also contains an excellent paper by Rupert Gethin on the role of the Matikas in the formation of the Pali Abhidhamma, and Ven. Nyanaponika’s essay on memory taken from his Abhidhamma Studies. (2) The wording in the short sutta at AN IV 190 is problematic, but the meaning is fairly clear. The sutta is enumerating the benefits of learning the Dhamma well. The first benefit: Even though one may die with clouded mindfulness, if one is reborn in a deva-realm, the devas "who are happy there recite stanzas of Dhamma to him [to the one reborn there], and though his memory [or mindfulness, sati] arises slowly, he quickly attains excellence." The problem is ‘pi lapanti’ or ‘pilapanti’. On the first alternative, the ‘pi’, which normally means ‘also, even, although’, is hard to account for, as none of those meanings seems appropriate. If we take ‘pilapanti’ as involving an abridged prefix ‘api’, as Norman holds, I simply don’t know of such a prefix. However, I have no Pali resources with me, so I won’t discount such a possibility offhand. The Burmese reading in CSCD is clearly a normalization, perhaps based on the commentary. This practice of normalizing difficult readings is endemic in Burmese script editions and is fraught with danger. I much prefer the Sinhala script editions, esp. the older ones, which preserve difficult readings. One solution, highly conjectural, is to convert ‘api’ into ‘abhi’, thus yielding ‘abhilapanti’, "to recite," in the sense of reminding, which would fit the context well. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of > the > > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in > the > > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back > it > > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, > calling > > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > > instead of the commentaries. 16305 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 10, Comm. -ekaayana (B.Bodhi) Dear all, Further comments by B.Bodhi in response to comments I made (which I can't find now) in reply to the quote Larry gave below: ***** B.Bodhi: (3) On ‘ekaayana’: Though I don’t have MLDB with me, I would assume that my note, which Sarah rejects, was preceded by a "perhaps" or "maybe". I don’t think I would make such a statement categorically, without qualifying it as hypothetical. In any case, ‘ekaayana’ cannot possibly mean "only," in the sense that Satipatthana is the only way, for the simple reason that one cannot derive such a meaning from eka + ayana (one + going). To my knowledge, the word is used in only one other context in the Nikayas. This is in MN 12, where the Buddha is describing his ability to foresee a person’s rebirth based on his present behaviour. It occurs in the similes, qualifying a path leading in a particular direction. The meaning required is that the path leads straight to that destination; it is a path that goes "in one way only." This is the meaning that fits the Satipatthana context too. Regardless of whether or not it is being contrasted with some alternative route, Satipatthana can easily be seen as going in one way, in one direction: straight towards the purification of beings, and so forth. By the way, Rupert Gethin (quite a bright and versatile young scholar in Pali studies) has a detailed discussion of ‘ekaayana’ in his The Buddhist Path to Awakening, which I recommended to you a couple of days ago. =========================================== --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > I've been comparing the footnotes from other translations of > Satipatthana Sutta. Here's an interesting one from B. Bodhi: > > "Though there is neither canonical nor commentarial basis for this view, > it might be maintained that satipatthana is called ekayana magga, the > direct path, to distinguish it from the approach to meditative > attainment that proceeds through the jhanas or brahmaviharas. While the > latter can lead to Nibbana, they do not do so necessarily but can lead > to sidetracks, whereas satipatthana leads invariably to the final goal." 16306 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 0:32am Subject: PTSM #5 Dear Nina and all, I am sorry for the long absence. I am far behind on my schedule, plus I have made couple of short weekend trips outside Bangkok. The countryside is very beautiful. I visited some of the old temples in the northern part of Thailand. The mural paintings in the temple are usually about the 10 parami jati of the Buddha. Some of them are pretty old, I can hardly see them. OK, let me update on the PTSM a little bit. ------------------------------------------------------------- Patisambhidamagga # 5 8) A_di_navan~ana 9) San.kharupek.khan~ana Matika: Adinavanana: panna in seeing the danger Sankharupekkhanana: panna in wishing to overcome, analysis, and in indifference. Atthakatha: Adinavannananuddesa: Bhayatupat.th.ne panna: panna in seeing danger in arising moment, sustaining moment, appearance (nimitta(sankharanimitta)), accumulation (ayuhana (tanha)), and being born (patisandhi) in new plane of existance. Bhayatopatthana refers to 1. Aramana, and 2. Panna in seeing danger. The atthakatha gives an analogy of one sees the burning hot and red charcoal and is aware of its danger. Then the commentary said that bhayatupatthananana(seeing danger), adinavanana(seeing disadvantage), and nibbidanana (disenchanted in nama/rupa, sankharadhamma) all have the same meaning. All sankhara, which can be classified in the senses of 3 planes (kama/rupa/arupa bhumi), 4 births (womb/egg/wet media/ just born like that), 5 destinations (hell, peta, animal, human being, and heaven) , 7 vinnanathiti (planes of patisandhicittas), 9 sattavasa( by plane of residence), appears to a person who develops bhaganupassananana by seeing the cessation of all sankhara as its object. One sees the past sankhara gone, the present sankhara is about to disintegrate, and the future sankhara will also be disintegrated as well. Once one sees the disadvantage of all sankhara, one is no longer enchanted in all sankhara. A.Sujin talked briefly about the 7 vinnanathiti and 9 sattavasa. Atthakathasankharanupekkhananuddesa: There are 3 sub-~nana mentioned here. Munchitukamyata~nana(panna in wishing to overcome, to get away from endless cycle), patisankhara~nana(panna in analysis), and santit.ath.ana~nana(panna in being neutral). It can be called munchitukamyatapatisankhasantithana~nana(all 3 pannas together). Upekkha here refers to panna cetasika while it is performing its function, being neutral and firm in knowing sankharadhamm(nama/rupa and its paccayas). The atthakatha said that that all 3 sub~nanas again, have the same meaning. The atthakatha gives a lot of analogies for the bhayatopatthana and sankharupekkhanana, e.g. like a deer is getting stuck in a trap, she always wants to get out. The trap is sankhara, after being trapped she knows the danger: bhaya, and for seeing advantage of getting out: munchitukamyata(sankharupekkha). The atthakatha then talks about anulomanana by refereeing to the word “anulomakhanti”, which refers to nana from kalapasammasana~nana – anulomanana (3rd-12th nana according to 16 nana level in visuddhimagga). All these 10 nanas have one of the tilakana (sankharadhamma) as its objects (anulomakhanti, en Pali). At the end of sankharanupekkhananuddesa section, the atthakathacharaya ( Ven.Mahanama) said that after manodvaravajjana, there can be 2, 3, or 4 cittas which have sankharadhamma as its arammana (from gotarabhu-palacitta moment, cittas have nibbana as their object). A.Supee pointed out that it is not consistent with visuddhimagga(VSM) and abhidhammathasangaha (ABDMS) and their subatthakatha. Because in the maggavithi, according to VSM and ABDMS, the pala citta arises 2 or 3 times (cannot be one), so if the anuloma cittas (refers to borikamma, uppachara, anuloma) in maggavithi can be only 2 or 3 moments, not 4. So there are some contradiction between atthakathas. In Visuddhimagga(which was written before satdhammapakasini_) also mentions about this controversy in some atthakathas before VSM was written. Next time, I will try to relay more on gotarabhunana, and magganana. I will try to sum up the correlation of the 7 visuddhi, 3 parinnakicca, pahanakicca, bhavanakicca, and sacchikiriyakicca, may be after the atthakatha of the magganaana. ----------------------------------------------- Let me follow up on your question from my last post. <> Num: A.Sujin mentioned this that at this level the nana is very weak, one can know what is nama or rupa but very breifly. The santati makes us see khandha as a kalapa. A.Supee added that to know just a single moment of the mind or rupa at a time is a nana of the Buddha, not even his great disciples. Best wishes. Num 16307 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 11, Comm Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is what I am particularly interested in. All insight knowledges are > considered the domain of panna, rather than sanna or citta, correct? I'm > going to try to pull together as much as I can on panna this weekend but > as I recall Vism doesn't give much info. If you have any sources not > covered by Vism or CMA or "Cetasikas" they would be greatly appreciated. ...... (I'm also looking at another of your posts in which you quote from Vism XXII, 34.) As you suggest, insight knowledges reflect different levels of panna or right understanding, i.e vipassana knowledges. Panna means right understanding or right view and can be that accompanying moments of samatha development or satipatthana development (i.e. different objects, different understanding). When you said the Vism 'doesn't give much info' I was a little surprised. There are three sections: virtue, concentration and understanding. The second is all about samatha development and attainment of jhanas for which there is not even a start without panna. the third section is all about vipassana, development of insights and enlightenment. Again, no beginning without panna which in this case knows realities as they are. I'd go further and say the entire Visuddhimagga and all the Buddha's Teachings are about different phenomena or dhammas to be known and understood according to accumulations. In this sense, whatever we read is about the development of panna. When we read about the foundations of mindfulness, the objects to be known and the vipallasas (perversions) to be abandoned along the way (beauty, pleasure. permanence, self), the role of panna is to directly understand or know, not just to be 'analytical' as you suggest, though of course there has to be theoretical unerstanding of the objects initially. Sarah p.s. On yr qu of time and length of postings from Way, I'd probably suggest 'shorter segments and regular timing', but Jon also likes 'shorter & slower' like Nina. I think you'll have to just use your discretion and as to whether or when to give any pauses and we all appreciate your role in this regard. ===== 16308 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Vimuttattaa Hi, Can anyone show me grammatically, how one get "vimuttattaa" from "vimutta" ? I am just starting to learn Pali. So please show me step by step. Thanks, Rahula -------- I have been trying to understand it for some time. For example, in the post "Vimuttattaa" of mine, I wrote: >> Lance Cousins, wrote in Buddha-L: "So the first sentence corresponds to Sanskrit: vimuktatvaat sthitam and so on. There is no atta/aatman here at all; it is the ablative singular of the suffix tta = tva. Bhikkhu Bodhi is indeed vindicated. " // Now, I am just learning Pali. So please forgive my mistake. According to Pali Primer by Lily de Silva, Lesson 9 The suffix -tvaa is added to the root of the verb or verbal base with or sometimes without the connecting vowel -i- to form the gerung, absolutive or the indeclinable particle. So, shouldn't it be rendered, vimucitvaa, never vimuttattaa. (muc + i + tvaa)? Also, vimutta + tta = vimuttatta, NOT vimuttattaa. Right? If not, can you explain how vimuttattaa is derived? // << I just couldn't figure out how to get "vimuttattaa" from "vimutta". 16309 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why did the Buddha meditate?and not ride horses Hi Azita, --- azita gill wrote: > > > hello all and esp. Sarah, I appreciate your > usually very clear comments, and the seemingly lge. > amounts of energy you put into dsg. ta muchly. ..... ta muchly to you too;-) ..... > < I relate to KenH, regarding sending mail, so > much goes round and round in my head, and that's as > far as it goes. ..... I think we all have obstacles on the path of posting- whether it be lack of time, injured wrist, limited internet, lack of computer, emotions, dyslexia, boredom, lack of good cheer or whatever;-( Hope you and Ken H know that you really encourage the rest of us when you do post and you both always give good reminders. If we all let our 'obstacles' prevent us from posting, there'd be no list..... ..... >However, this one seems quite clear > to me. The Buddha, like us, had accumulations, and > as you say, was an extraordinary being. We read > about his life just before he became the Buddha, how > he spent a long time doing austere practices, > meditation being a big part of that. After > enlightenment, he taught the ppl for many hours, but > when that was finished, he didn't have the > accumlations to go ride horses for example. ..... ;-) Hope Abby's horse-training in the Middle East is working out well. ..... >So he > went and did what he was good at - meditating - and as > someone wrote before, maybe that was a perfect way for > him to rest, to be refreshed for the next day's > teaching. I almost can't imagine how wise the Buddha > really was; and 'I' really want to be in the front row > when the next Buddha is around. .... ;-) It would be nice if we could book our seats, wouldn't it? ..... I also like Selamat's comment about the Buddha's continuous mindfulness and question about what people what kind of meditation people were referring to. . ..... Azita, I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining from letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would then ask, however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of course it's better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa (aversion),for example, but better to know the problem is the dosa rather than the speaking out perhaps. Very much looking f/w to seeing you and others soon in Bkk. Sarah ====== > > patience, courage and good cheer, 16310 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:38am Subject: Garbage removal Dear Group, I've looked back over the message archive, and I seem to be the main one that posts non-academically and often with emotions engaged, just discursive thoughts that are of concern probably only to me, I'll try to keep the garbage under control. metta, Christine I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining > from > letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would then > ask, > however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of course > it's > better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa > (aversion) 16311 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Garbage removal Dear Christine, If I were to pick out one post of yours to reject based on being too self-concerned, it would be this one. I consider all your other posts as expressions of 'sharing' and learn a lot from all of them. For example just the latest one to Rob Ep. was one of the really good posts on dsg. :-) Best, Sukin -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 4:38 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Garbage removal Dear Group, I've looked back over the message archive, and I seem to be the main one that posts non-academically and often with emotions engaged, just discursive thoughts that are of concern probably only to me, I'll try to keep the garbage under control. metta, Christine I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining > from > letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would then > ask, > however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of course > it's > better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa > (aversion) 16312 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Garbage removal Hi Chris & Sukin, --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Christine, > > If I were to pick out one post of yours to reject based on being too > self-concerned, it would be this one. I consider all your other posts as > expressions of 'sharing' and learn a lot from all of them. For example > just the latest one to Rob Ep. was one of the really good posts on dsg. > :-) .... I agree with Sukin's comments. Even this one I now liked because it encouraged Sukin out of the woodwork;-)) You could try it more often. This isn't meant to be an academic list, but we all have different styles and ways of expression and learning - it makes it a lot more interesting, I think. Some find it helpful to analyse Pali terms, others relate far more easily to your examples from daily life and honest comments. I'm quite sure that Azita's post on garbage and my response had nothing to do with anything you've ever said/written or even to DSG in particular. Actually, my point was to suggest that when we keep quiet, there may be just as much akusala involved....biting the tongue with dosa, for example as I'm sure we all experience and as I certainly did in my class yesterday;-( So, Sukin, let's hear more 'sharing' from you and any further reflections on Chris' and Rob Ep's 'Sniper' posts...... Sarah ======= 16313 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:21am Subject: Plavati Means Crossing Over : Re : Way 10, Comm. To Sarah (and Suan) Dear Sarah, Jim, Nina, Robert Kirkpatrick, Bob Eddison, Bob Moult, and All How are you? Thank you, Sarah, for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments on "plavanti". Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote the following. "The Burmese reading in CSCD is clearly a normalization, perhaps based on the commentary. This practice of normalizing difficult readings is endemic in Burmese script editions and is fraught with danger. I much prefer the Sinhala script editions, esp. the older ones, which preserve difficult readings." With due respect to the Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi, I will have to disagree with him. The commentary's explanation of "Dhammapadaa plavanti" makes sense. In U Hout Sein's Pali-Myanmar Dictionary, the meanings of "palavati, plavati" include "To cross, to appear, to float". Currently, the Ten Capital Television has been showing a program called "Crossing Over With John Edward" at 7.30 p.m on Saturdays. The program is about contacting the people who passed away. The context of "Dhammapadaa plavanti" is also about what happened between the immediate past life and his or her rebirth in a new life, and afterwards. Please kindly view my literal translation of commentary explanantion of "Dhammapadaa plavanti". "Dhammapadaa plavantiiti antaraabhave nibbattamuµµhassatino, yepi pubbe sajjhaayamuulikaa vaacaaparicitabuddhavacanadhammaa, te sabbe pasanne aadaase chaayaa viya plavanti, paaka.taa hutvaa paññaayanti." Section 191, Sotaanugata Suttam, Catukkanipaata, Anguttara Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "All those that are the teachings of the Buddha thoroughly learnt by verbalization which had their root in repeated recitation in the previous life also cross over to the one with lost recollection taking place between the immediate past life and the present one, materialize by becoming clear and transparent like an image does in the clear mirror." Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi also wrote the following. "One solution, highly conjectural, is to convert `api' into `abhi', thus yielding `abhilapanti', "to recite," in the sense of reminding, which would fit the context well." I found it very amazing for Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi to prefer "Highly Conjectual" interpretation to the that of the standard commentaries and for him to describe Burmese script editions as being "fraught with danger" because they comform to the standard commentaries. Please kindly pass on my post to Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi. With kind regards Suan http://www.bodhioloyg.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: Dear Jim (& Suan), Bhikkhu Bodhi added a few comments to this thread on 'apilaapana' which he mentioned I was welcome to send to DSG. (I've added a few of Jim's comments at the end for those who may have forgotten what this is about.): ..... From Bhikkhu Bodhi =================== Dear Sarah and Jonothan, Here are a few comments relating to the pages you gave me from the Dhamma Study Group. (1) `apilaapana': The corresponding word in the Sanskrit Abhidharma texts is `abhilaapana', with a verb `abhilaapati'. This would mean `to address', in the sense of reminding, which corresponds closely to sati's meaning of memory; it also imples reinforcing one's awareness of one's present experience, and thus ties up with the sense of mindfulness. For a discussion of this problematic word in the two traditions, see the essay "The Scope of Sm.riti [= Sati] from Early Buddhism to the Sarvastivada Abhidharma," by Colette Cox, in Janet Gyatso, ed., In the Mirror of Memory: Reflections on Mindfulness and Remembrance in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism. This volume also contains an excellent paper by Rupert Gethin on the role of the Matikas in the formation of the Pali Abhidhamma, and Ven. Nyanaponika's essay on memory taken from his Abhidhamma Studies. (2) The wording in the short sutta at AN IV 190 is problematic, but the meaning is fairly clear. The sutta is enumerating the benefits of learning the Dhamma well. The first benefit: Even though one may die with clouded mindfulness, if one is reborn in a deva-realm, the devas "who are happy there recite stanzas of Dhamma to him [to the one reborn there], and though his memory [or mindfulness, sati] arises slowly, he quickly attains excellence." The problem is `pi lapanti' or `pilapanti'. On the first alternative, the `pi', which normally means `also, even, although', is hard to account for, as none of those meanings seems appropriate. If we take `pilapanti' as involving an abridged prefix `api', as Norman holds, I simply don't know of such a prefix. However, I have no Pali resources with me, so I won't discount such a possibility offhand. The Burmese reading in CSCD is clearly a normalization, perhaps based on the commentary. This practice of normalizing difficult readings is endemic in Burmese script editions and is fraught with danger. I much prefer the Sinhala script editions, esp. the older ones, which preserve difficult readings. One solution, highly conjectural, is to convert `api' into `abhi', thus yielding `abhilapanti', "to recite," in the sense of reminding, which would fit the context well. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > > > Recently, I was studying the Pali word apilaapana which is one of > the > > > terms used to define the characteristic of sati. It's usually > > > translated as non-floating which is based on taking it to be derived > > > from a + pilaapana (plaavana in Skt.) which agrees with the > > > commentaries but according to a research article by K.R. Norman in > the > > > Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XII and with a sutta to back > it > > > up it's possible that the derivation is in fact api (a prefix) + > > > laapana with a meaning of reminding, remembering by reciting, > calling > > > to mind and the new Cone dictionary is following Norman on this > > > instead of the commentaries. 16314 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:51am Subject: Comments or posts for B.Bodhi Dear All, B.Bodhi will be back in Hong Kong (just for2 days) in 2 weeks time. I'll gladly pass by hand any posts which I think may be of interest to him and of course, any like Suan’s for his attention. One member sent some questions off-list, but unless there is anything of a particularly personal nature, I’d rather just pass on DSG messages/questions and then it’s entirely up to him whether he wishes to add comments (just like for us) and there isn’t any burden or obligation. Also, we can then all share any responses as we do from each other’s posts. (The papers I gave him this week were just ones I thought he might be interested to look at, not requests or questions for him.) If anyone wishes to have any particular past posts shown to him, pls indicate the archives number to me (off-list perhaps), so I can print it out as well. In any case, pls.expect a delay. He doesn’t wish to receive these by email and I was asked not to pass on his email address either. I have two more posts from him to f/w to the list which I’ll do tomorrow probably. Sarah p.s Frank- I passed on your appreciative post ============================================== 16315 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: Garbage removal Hi Christine, I've been rather silent lately... incredibly busy. Please don't stop your posts or change your style. I like it. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I've looked back over the message archive, and I seem to be the main > one that posts non-academically and often with emotions engaged, > just discursive thoughts that are of concern probably only to me, > I'll try to keep the garbage under control. > > metta, > Christine > > I also liked your comments about Right Speech and refraining > > from > > letting the 'garbage' come 'tumbling out'. I know K.Sujin would > then > > ask, > > however, what about when we keep quiet? Kusala or akusala? Of > course > > it's > > better to keep quiet than to come out with a lot of dosa > > (aversion) 16316 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: subtle rupas Hi Nina, Sorry for the delay in responding. Life is a bit hectic right now. I really appreciate your reply. I agree that it doesn't make sense to try and experience all paramattha dhammas. I am still not clear on how the rupas jivitindriya, masculinity or feminity can be considered "produced rupas" (i.e. suitable for practice of insight). What is the object if it is not a concept and we are not looking at "indirect effects" such as heat from jivitindriya? If we are looking at "indirect effects", then what are the "indirect effects" of masculinity and femininity? My assumption is that the object of insight which shows the heart base is the existence of cittas (not the cittas themselves). Isn't this an "indirect effect"? I am still trying to get my mind around the idea that Satipatthana is not meditation, but something that could/should be part of every moment. Would it be correct to call Satipatthana a "perspective"? I also have an unrelated question. In Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, under the entry for "Sankhara", it says that there are three types of sankhara; demeritorious (arises only in Kamavacara), meritorious (arises in Kamavacara or Rupavacara) and imperturbable (arises only in Arupavacara). Can I say that demerititorious is equivalent to akusala? Certainly a person in the 5th Jhana must continue to generate kamma, so this implies that imperturbable is a special class of kusala. What makes it special? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16317 From: Frank Kuan Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments or posts for B.Bodhi Thanks for passing along the posts Sarah. B.Bodhi rocks! It almost makes me doubt the efficacy of kamma to hear about his affliction with headaches. Does he still reside in Sri Lanka in light of his reduced role for BPS? If it's somewhere in the states, I'd like to pay a short visit and give my regards and express appreciation in person sometime. -fk 16318 From: Derick W. Winkworth Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:56am Subject: Pali question Ok so I cross-posted... I am looking to translate a latin derived name into Pali. My daughter's name is Miranda which actually has a number of different meanings, but it they pretty much boil down to: "Admirable Beauty", and "One who is loved." I was hoping to find a Pali / old Magadhi equivalent. Second I was looking at www.ancientscripts.com and thought I might be able to render the translation above into Brahmi script, which King Asoka used on his pillars. However, if someone has a better or more appropriate suggestion (a script more commonly associated with pali texts), please let me know. Any help would be appreciated. This is fairly off-topic I'm guessing but, this would be the place to go for help with Pali... D. 16319 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: Pali question: To Derick Dear Derick How are you? The exact Pali terms for "Admirable Beauty", and "One who is loved" are "Abyaasekam" or "Asecanam" each of which means one who pleases the mind and the eyes. Other possible female names in Pali are Manju, Kalyaanii, and Sobhanii, all of which means goodness and beauty. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Derick W. Winkworth" wrote: Ok so I cross-posted... I am looking to translate a latin derived name into Pali. My daughter's name is Miranda which actually has a number of different meanings, but it they pretty much boil down to: "Admirable Beauty", and "One who is loved." I was hoping to find a Pali / old Magadhi equivalent. Second I was looking at www.ancientscripts.com and thought I might be able to render the translation above into Brahmi script, which King Asoka used on his pillars. However, if someone has a better or more appropriate suggestion (a script more commonly associated with pali texts), please let me know. Any help would be appreciated. This is fairly off-topic I'm guessing but, this would be the place to go for help with Pali... D. 16320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi Larry, I have a go at some of your Qu, but not all. I am glad this subject is discussed. op 16-10-2002 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Why teach this sutta? because of the ability of the Kuru to take in deep > doctine. The Kuru are happy, with healthy mind and body (due to perfect > climate) and have the power of knowledge. QUESTION: what is "power of > knowledge"? N: I would think: they had accumulated the ability of understanding. L: QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in > arahantship, in 21 places" mean? N: Could it be: in 21 locations in Kuru? >L:Kuru were earnest in application of satipatthana to their daily life. > COMMENT: not just secluded meditation. N: You said it. L: There was social prssure for everyone to do it, even servants, no > useless talk at gathering places. COMMENT: it was a practice, not just > an activity that may or may not arise. N: You mean by practice: development again and again? That is correct. L: Those who didn't practice were told, "Your life is shameful; though you > live you are as if dead." > > Ekayana = single way, not double. QUESTION: Does this imply that samatha > and vipassana go together? or that there is one "way" in the 4 > arousings? N: Samatha and vipassana should not be separated. They are part of the eightfold Path. Samatha can be of the degree of jhana but not necessarily for all people. L: Ekayana = going alone. This means without companions, abandoning the > crowd and withdrawn from craving through tranquility of mind. COMMENT: > Tranquility is definitly a factor in satipatthana and it is > characterized as aloneness. N: Remember the sutta texts on craving as a mate. You take lobha everywhere, also to lonely places. The monk who is going to develop jhana should be alone. That is included in the four Applications. Everything in any kind of life for all types of persons is included. L: Ekayana = way of the one, i.e., the Buddha, because he creates it; it > exists only in his doctrine-and-discipline. "Only in this > doctine-and-discipline is the 8-fold way to be found." COMMENT: 8-fold > way is equated with satipatthana as ekayana. > > Ekayana = goes to the one, i.e., nibbana. Nibbana is without a second in > not having any accompanying quality such as desire. This means, "Truth > is one; it is without a second." > > When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. > QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire > 8-fold path is practiced? N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three abstinences arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold. > L: Ekayana does NOT in this sutta mean one goes to nibanna only once. The > way that is described here is repeated many times. > "In this instruction the earlier part of the path is intended." Earlier > = mundane (lokiya). N: Yes. L:This is because it is repeated many times for up to > 7 years. COMMENT: The supramundane path (lokuttara magga) is the goal > this path leads to. N: What about countless lives instead of seven years? Taking into consideration our accumulated ignorance and wrong view? > L In what sense is it a 'way'? It is a way in that it goes toward nibbana > and it is the way one _should_ go toward nibbana. N: Yes L: The elders of old were not envious and did not go about holding up only > what they liked. They took up what was rational and gave up what was > not. COMMENT: Elders can be wrong. Reason settles the disagreement. N: although Culla Summa was a teacher, he was humble and openminded. He saw that his pupil was right. >L: The preliminary part of the way of mindfulness is called the only way. > Preliminary (mundane) part = 8-fold path, 4 truths, & dispassion which > is the best possession of the wise. > > "Walk along that way so that you may confound death and put an end to > suffering." N: See, it leads to the cessation of dukkha, it is the eightfold Path. Thank you very much, Larry. Nina. > > 16321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jinavamsa, op 15-10-2002 22:45 schreef jinavamsa op jinavamsa@h...: > I wonder that if only Buddhas teach this teaching, then > what are other people doing when they teach this teaching? > I see that the "one way" (ekaayana) is called the way of > the one (or of the best or of the Buddha), but does that > imply here that only a buddha/Buddha can relay this to > others? N:Only Buddhas teach satipatthana, the way leading to the end of dukkha. When others have heard this teaching they can also explain it, depending on the degree of accumulated wisdom. Someone who has attained enlightenment is the best teacher. J: I see a variety of renderings of ekaayana, or > interpretations of why this way is called the one way, > such as that one must walk it oneself, that it goes in > only direction (like a one-way street) or to one > destination, ... > I am wondering about the teaching of Culla Naaga to his > teacher Culla Summa. esp. the quotations there from > the Pa.tisambhidaa Magga. N: The footnote says that this citation is not found in the Pa.tisambhidaa Magga. But it is clear that satipatthana has as object conditioned nama and rupa. When panna has further developed through satipatthana it can become lokuttara panna. Nina. 16322 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] The D.C. Sniper Dear Rob Ep, Thank you very much for your post, it is so actual, daily life. We can live the moment more fully in understanding that no matter how dangerous a situation is, there are nama and rupa to be understood. But to follow this up is of course difficult. There is anxiety, unpleasant feeling, thinking about situations, and they are conditioned namas. Nina. op 16-10-2002 18:15 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: Yes, the sniper attacks are 'right around the > corner' for all D.C. folk. > > It is quite disconcerting, BUT luckily for a Buddhist type person it can be > used > as a reminder of both impermanence and the inherent insecurity and lack of > control > that this reality has. >> > I don't want to underplay the tension that this situation creates, only that > the > teachings are helpful in urging me to 'embrace' the situation and use it to be > more fully present in the moment, and live the moment rather than run away > from > it. 16323 From: jinavamsa Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana hello Nina and all, thank you for your reply to my questions. When you say that only Buddhas teach satipatthana while others explain it, do you mean that only Buddhas introduce the practice in its original presentation (for a given age) and that others are following that initial presentation? When you mention that satipatthana has as object conditioned nama and rupa, what is its object when the dhamma arising is an unconditioned dhamma? Does that or can you link that with the original discussion between Culla Naaga and his teacher Culla Summa, even if the quotation in question is not to be found (pace the citation) in the Patisambhida? I was trying to understand the points being made in the passage of the cmy. Thank you for all clarifications and help here, Jinavamsa 16324 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Way 13, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued for: "for the destruction of suffering and grief" And then there is the story of the elder Pitamalla who in the time he was a layman took the pennon for wrestling in three kingdoms. He came to Tambapanni Isle, had audience of the king and received royal assistance. Once while going through the entrance to the Screened Sitting Hall he heard the following passage from the "Not-yours" chapter of Scripture: "Material form, o bhikkhus, is not yours; renounce it. That renunciation will, for a long time, be for your welfare and happiness." And he thought: "Neither material form, indeed, nor feeling is one's own," and making just that thought a goad, he renounced the world. At the Great Minister, the Maha Vihara, at Anuradhapura, he was, in due course, given the lower ordination and the higher. When he had mastered the two Codes of Discipline [Dve Matika], he went to the Gavaravaliya Shrine with thirty other bhikkhus and did the duty of the recluse. While meditating in the open at night there once, he was moving on his knees on the ambulatory when his feet were unable to carry him, and a hunter mistaking him for a deer struck him with a spear. The elder removed the spear which had gone deep into the body and, stopping the wound with a wad of grass, sat down on a flat stone. Making of his misfortune an opportunity for setting energy afoot, he developed insight and attained arahantship with analytical knowledge. After he had reached the state of arahantship, in order to apprise his fellow-bhikkhus of his achievement, he made a sign by clearing his throat and uttered this saying of joy at final liberation from suffering: The world of the Fully Awakened Man, the Chief, Holder of Right Views in all the world is this: Give up this form, disciples; it is not yours. Fleeting truly are component things, Ruled by laws of growth and decay; What is produced, to dissolution swings; Happy it is when things at rest do stay. Then those fellow-monks of the Elder Pitamalla who had come to see him said: "Reverend Sir, if the Buddha were living he would have expressed his approval of your effort, by stretching out his hand over the ocean and stroking your head." [Tika] Three kingdoms = Pandu, Cola, Gola. Because he was in the habit of carrying a yellow pennon about his body and also because he adorned himself with that pennon when taking part in wrestling matches he was well-known as Pitamalla, the yellow wrestler. After his renunciation of the world too, he was known as the Elder Yellow Wrestler. He came to Tambapanni Isle -- Ceylon -- having got the information that wrestlers were honored and hospitably received in the island. So, in this manner, this way is conducive to the destruction of suffering of those like the Elder Tissa. 16325 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Hi all, I read Rupert Gethin's account of ekayana magga in "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" and one point that we missed is concerning the "single, not double" remark in the commentary. This refers to a forked path and its attendant doubt. Satipattthana overcomes doubt and leads to the end of doubt because it is a single path (ekayana). Gethin ties this in with the 'doubt' concerning whether this instruction is a mixed path (lokya and lokuttara). His point being because there was doubt that was further evidence that this is a lokiya (mundane) path. Larry 16326 From: Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi all, This section gives an indication of the relathionship between satipatthana and 'analytical knowledge' (patisambhida nana). I wonder if we are placing too much emphasis on the panna that accompanies satipatthana. Maybe panna should be considered to be a result of satipatthana and more closely associated with patisambhida nana. Discerning whether a breath is long or short is surely not panna. Any clarification? Larry 16327 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry & Nina, > L: QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in > > arahantship, in 21 places" mean? > N: Could it be: in 21 locations in Kuru? I think Soma's translation of the line here is not very clear. The twenty-one places refer to the 21 meditation subjects (kamma.t.thaana-s, lit. workplaces) in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. These are the 14 subjects (including the 9 cemetery ones) for the contemplation of body, one each for feelings and mind, and five for the contemplation of dhammas -- totalling 21. This is according to the subcommentary which also explains "the subject of meditation" regarding arahantship to be the last one on the four truths (catusaccakamma.t.t.haana). Best wishes, Jim 16328 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 0:02am Subject: Themes, Dirt-washer, Refinement of the Mind, Gold-Refiner Dear All, The topic of translations of AN came up with B.Bodhi and I believe I jumped to a couple of wrong conclusions in an old post with regard to a translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I need to introduce B.Bodhi’s comments a little first. A long time ago,In the following post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5226.html I was having a discussion with Howard and Mike N about a sutta in Angutara Nikaya - in B. Bodhi’s ‘Numerical Discourses, this is ‘the Refinement of the Mind-1’, p.72. It is a sutta about the ‘removing of impurities’. I was looking at this and also at the PTS translation by Woodward ,‘The Gold-Refiner’ and Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s transl http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-103.html I realise now that I made a mistake (thanks to B.Bodhi’s comments) and that Thanissaro’s translation (Nimitta Sutta - Themes) should actually have been compared to ‘the Refinement of the Mind-11’, p.74 or to the second part of the PTS transl. Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s translation of the first sutta, he titles “Pansadhovaka Sutta-The Dirt-Washer’ and it can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Apologies for any past or present confusion! Sarah ********** Bhikkhu Bodhi’s comments to me: ======================== (4) Thanissaro Bhikkhu is NOT guilty of rearranging the text of the Anguttara Nikaya sutta you sent me. The fault is with the PTS edition. The editor has joined two suttas that are distinct in other editions and are clearly different texts. In the PTS translation, the break should come between para. x and para. xi on p.235. The second might be called ‘nimitta’ and thus TB’s rendering "Themes" can be justified. The suttas of SN and AN don’t really have proper titles. The titles in modern editions are taken from the summary verses at the end of each group of suttas, but these are only mnemonic words. Moreover, the summary verses sometimes differ from one textual tradition to another, and this would lead to different titles in different traditions. The Burmese CS edition tends to expand the title to make it more meaningful (an approach I also follow in my translations). 16329 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments or posts for B.Bodhi Hi Frank, > Does he still reside in Sri Lanka in light of his > reduced role for BPS? If it's somewhere in the states, > I'd like to pay a short visit and give my regards and > express appreciation in person sometime. According to http://www.bodhimonastery.net/ , Bhikkhu Bodhi had retired as President and Editor of Buddhist Publication Society in 2002. He will be the President of Bodhi Monastery and will be residing in the monastery. Rahula. 16330 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 0:33am Subject: B.Bodhi's comments on Buddhaghosa's Bahiranidana Dear All, I had mentioned in passing to B.Bodhi that I was hoping one day there would be an English translation of the Samantapasadika (Buddhagosa’s commentary on the Vinaya) and he showed a little surprise at my interest. I mentioned I had written some posts based on the Bahiranidana which is Buddhaghosa’s introduction to this commentary to look at the early origins/authenticity of the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. The first part in the series I wrote is: Samantaasadikahttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9464 Some of the others can be found in U.P. under ‘Vinaya’. Sarah ===== These are B.Bodhi’s comments to me: =========================== (5) Regarding Sarah’s long quotations from the Introduction to the Vinaya Commentary: Such accounts have to be taken with deep reservations, as they are obviously intended to justify established traditions and cannot in all respects stand up to rigorous historical criticism. Such accounts should be balanced by consulting modern critical studies that range over all the available sources. See for example Etienne Lamotte’s account of the first council as well as his comparisons of the different early recensions of the Tripitaka (in his important but partly dated -History of Indian Buddhism). See too A.K. Warder’s Indian Buddhism and Rupert Gethin’s (again), The Foundations of Buddhism. Such comparative studies bring to the fore a core of historical truth that would be difficult to dispute, as well as variations among the early schools that bring into focus their own specialized concerns. Malalasekera’s interpretation of how the commentaries were established at the first council is fair and reasonable, and I would be in substantial agreement with it. The commentaries that Ac. Buddhaghosa edited were clearly the products of several centuries of elaboration, closed perhaps in the first century A.C. Important work in this area, particularly regarding the Nikayas and early Abhidharma, has been done by our Master Ren Chun’s teacher, the 97-year-old Master Yin Shun, but his work is all in Chinese and I have only picked up fragments of the conclusions he has reached through painstaking research into the various traditions (including the Pali texts, which he has studied in their translations into Chinese done by Japanese scholars in the 1930s). 16331 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Garbage removal Dear Sarah, I just sent off a fairly long reply to this post, but for some reason it got lost. :-( So this one is just an acknowledgement OK?! Hope you don't mind. metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris & Sukin, > > --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > > If I were to pick out one post of yours to reject based on being too > > self-concerned, it would be this one. I consider all your other posts as > > expressions of 'sharing' and learn a lot from all of them. For example > > just the latest one to Rob Ep. was one of the really good posts on dsg. > > :-) > .... > I agree with Sukin's comments. Even this one I now liked because it > encouraged Sukin out of the woodwork;-)) You could try it more often. > > This isn't meant to be an academic list, but we all have different styles > and ways of expression and learning - it makes it a lot more interesting, > I think. Some find it helpful to analyse Pali terms, others relate far > more easily to your examples from daily life and honest comments. I'm > quite sure that Azita's post on garbage and my response had nothing to do > with anything you've ever said/written or even to DSG in particular. > > Actually, my point was to suggest that when we keep quiet, there may be > just as much akusala involved....biting the tongue with dosa, for example > as I'm sure we all experience and as I certainly did in my class > yesterday;-( > > So, Sukin, let's hear more 'sharing' from you and any further reflections > on Chris' and Rob Ep's 'Sniper' posts...... > > Sarah > ======= > 16332 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:14am Subject: Meditative Experience of Nibanna Dear Friends, Here are more tidbits about Nibbana, and experiencing Nibbana. From AN (Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, B. Bodhi, 184, and 185) The Meditative Experince of Nibbana (X, 6) Once the Veneral Anada approached the Blessed One and asked: "Can it be, Lord, that a monk attains to such a concentration of mind that in earth he is not percipient of earth, nor in water is he percipient of water, not in fire ... air .. the base of the infinity of space ... the base of the infinity of consciousness ... the base of nothingness ... the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is he percipient of all these; nor is he percipient of this world or a world beyond - but yet he is a percipient?" "Yes, Ananada, there can be such a concentration of mind that in earth a monk is not percipient of earth ... nor is he percipient of this world or a world beyond - but yet he is percipient." "But how, Lord, can a monk attain to such a concentration of mind?" "Here, Ananda, the monk is percipient thus: 'This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.' It is in this way, Ananda, that a monk may attain to such a concentration of mind." The Meditative Experience of Nibbana - II (X, 7) Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Venerable Sariputta and asked: "Can it be, friend Sariputta, that a monk attains to such a concentration of mind that in earth he is not percipient of earth ... (as above) ... nor is he percipient of this world or a world beyond - but yet he is percipient?" "Yes, friend Ananada, he can attain to such a concentration of mind." "But how, friend Sariputta, can a monk attain to such a concentration of mind?" "Once, friend Ananda, I lived here in Savatthi, in the Dark Forest. There I attained to such a concentration of mind that in earth I was not percipient of earth ... (as above) ... nor was I percipient of this world or a world beyond - and yet I was percipient." "But what was the Venerable Sariputta percipient of on that occasion?" "Nibbana is cessation of becoming, Nibbana is cessation of becoming" - one such perception arose in me and another such perception ceased. Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots one flame arises and another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is cessation of becoming, Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such perception arose in me and another such perception ceased. On that occasion, friend, I perceived that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming. kom 16333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:03am Subject: third insight knowledge Dear Num, Rob K, Sarah, Jon, Num, I am delighted with your Patis. magga, and will add more english notes. I repeat my q and Num's answer, which I find extremely helpful. <> Num: A.Sujin mentioned this that at this level the nana is very weak, one can know what is nama or rupa but very briefly. The santati makes us see khandha as a kalapa. A.Supee added that to know just a single moment of the mind or rupa at a time is a nana of the Buddha, not even his great disciples. Nina: I have to ponder about this more, and I believe that I have not yet completely understood this. Could Rob K bring it up again with A. Sujin, I want to hear more. Maybe Jon and Sarah can add something? It teaches me anyway to try less to know one rupa or one nama. Even the third stage of insight is so coarse, let alone when one merely begins. Characteristics appear now and then, such as hardness, but we should not think that we know the rupa of solidity. Many moments of hardness or of feeling arise and fall away, and *we* should not try to have precise understanding of just one reality at a time. There can be a subtle trying. This is an important point. Nina. 16334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTSM #5 and a Question. Dear Num and all, I shall add some points. op 17-10-2002 09:32 schreef sinsk@m... op sinsk@m...: Num: Patisambhidamagga # 5 > 8) A_di_navan~ana > 9) San.kharupek.khan~ana > > Matika: > Adinavanana: panna in seeing the danger > Sankharupekkhanana: panna in wishing to overcome, analysis, and in > indifference. >Nina: Compare the English Path of Discrimination, p. 59-61. And the Visuddhimagga, XXI, 35 and following: Knowledge of Contemplation of Danger. Num: Atthakatha: > Adinavannananuddesa: Bhayatupat.th.ne panna: panna in seeing danger > in arising moment, sustaining moment, appearance (nimitta(sankharanimitta)), > accumulation (ayuhana (tanha)), and being born (patisandhi) in new plane of > existance. Nina: See also Vis. XXI, 38. It states that ayuhana, accumulation, is the kamma that is the cause of future rebirth-linking. These again are examples that insight leads to more detachment from nama and rupa, but not at the beginning stages. Num: Bhayatopatthana refers to 1. Aramana, and 2. Panna in seeing danger. > The atthakatha gives an analogy of one sees the burning hot and red charcoal > and > is aware of its danger. > Then the commentary said that bhayatupatthananana(seeing danger), > adinavanana(seeing disadvantage), and nibbidanana (disenchanted in nama/rupa, > sankharadhamma) all have the same meaning. > All sankhara, which can be classified in the senses of 3 planes > (kama/rupa/arupa bhumi), 4 births (womb/egg/wet media/ just born like that), 5 > destinations (hell, peta, animal, human being, and heaven) , 7 vinnanathiti > (planes > of patisandhicittas), 9 sattavasa( by plane of residence), appears to a person > who > develops bhaganupassananana by seeing the cessation of all sankhara as its > object. One sees the past sankhara gone, the present sankhara is about to > disintegrate, and the future sankhara will also be disintegrated as well. > Once one sees the disadvantage of all sankhara, one is no longer enchanted in > all > sankhara. > A.Sujin talked briefly about the 7 vinnanathiti and 9 sattavasa. > Atthakathasankharanupekkhananuddesa: There are 3 sub-~nana > mentioned here. Munchitukamyata~nana(panna in wishing to overcome, to get > away from endless cycle), patisankhara~nana(panna in analysis), and > santit.ath.ana~nana(panna in being neutral). It can be called > munchitukamyatapatisankhasantithana~nana(all 3 pannas together). Nina: English, see Path of D. p. 62: Understanding of desire for deliverance, of reflexion (patisankhara) and of composure (equanimity, upekkha), santit.ath.ana ~nana. The last one is, I believe, the same as sankharupekkha, equanimity of Formations (sankharas). English text, Ch IX: where it is indicated that they are the same in meaning. Also in the Co this stated. Vis. XXI, 47, about the seventh stage, Knowledge of Reflexion, patisankhana ~naana, <...in order to be delivered from the whole field of formations he again discerns those same formations, attributing to them the three characteristics by knowledge of contemplation of reflexion.> Here we see that not in the beginning, but later on one can begin to penetrate more the three characteristics. Num: Upekkha here > refers to panna cetasika while it is performing its function, being neutral > and firm > in knowing sankharadhamm(nama/rupa and its paccayas). The atthakatha said > that that all 3 sub~nanas again, have the same meaning. > The atthakatha gives a lot of analogies for the bhayatopatthana and > sankharupekkhanana, e.g. like a deer is getting stuck in a trap, she always > wants > to get out. The trap is sankhara, after being trapped she knows the danger: > bhaya, > and for seeing advantage of getting out: munchitukamyata(sankharupekkha). > The atthakatha then talks about anulomanana by referring to the > word “anulomakhanti ", which refers to nana from kalapasammasana~nana – > anulomanana (3rd-12th nana according to 16 nana level in visuddhimagga). All > these 10 nanas have one of the tilakana (sankharadhamma) as its objects > (anulomakhanti, in Pali). Nina: Question: Is there a connection with khanti, patience, or does it have another meaning here? kalapasammasama ~nana is the third stage; understanding the arising and falling away of groups of realities. It is coarse, but one begins to see impermanence. It is already under anuloma: adaptation, but a beginning. The last adaptation knowledge precedes gotrabhu, change of lineage, when nibbana is the object, but when the citta is not yet lokuttara. I see in the Co a reference to the Patthana, that anuloma is a condition for gotrabhu by way of contiguity-condition, anantara paccaya. I read further on in the Co: I like to read the role of the cetasikas in the development. When there is more understanding confidence and determination become stronger. With appreciation, Nina. 16335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:03am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 7 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 7 We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(V, Mahå-vagga, Book IV, Kindred Sayings on the Faculties, Ch I, §8, Point of view) about the five controlling faculties, indriyas: Monks, there are five controlling faculties. What five? The controlling faculty of faith, of energy, of sati, of concentration and of paññå... These are dhammas that are rulers or leaders, indriyas, but they arise at the moment of satipaììhåna which considers with awareness the characteristics of realities. We read in the above quoted sutta about the controlling faculty of faith: But from what point of view, monks, should the controlling faculty of faith be regarded? From that of the four limbs of Streamwinning... When kusala citta arises it must be accompanied by saddhå cetasika, confidence or faith. There are many degrees of kusala citta. The faculty of saddhå, faith or confidence, is a leader with regard to its specific function. This will be clearer when we consider the four limbs or factors of streamwinning: unshakable confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and the virtues (síla) which are agreeable to the ariyans. Someone may study the Dhamma and have confidence in listening to the Dhamma, but his confidence may not be firm, it may be unstable, uncertain. If he has no right understanding of realities and if he does not know the right practice for the realization of the four noble Truths, he may easily become confused. Confidence which is unshakable and firm, without confusion, and a condition for not deviating from the right Path, is the confidence of the ariyan, confidence which is a factor of streamwinning. It is the unshakable confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha and the virtues of the ariyans. We read further on in the above quoted sutta: And from what point of view, monks, should the controlling faculty of viriya, energy, be regarded? From that of the four supreme efforts. There are four supreme efforts (sammå-ppadhåna): the effort to avoid the akusala dhammas which have not yet arisen the effort to overcome the akusala dhammas which have arisen the effort to develop kusala dhammas which have not yet arisen the effort to maintain kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and to reach completion. Viriya which is a faculty, indriya, and has become a ³leader², must has been accumulated very gradually so that it could become a faculty. The controlling faculty of viriya should be regarded from the point of view of the four supreme efforts. We can notice ourselves whether we have viriya which only begins to develop and is still weak, or whether it is already right effort: the effort which avoids akusala not yet arisen, overcomes akusala already arisen, the effort to cause the arising of kusala which has not yet arisen. The kusala dhamma which has not yet arisen refers to samatha and vipassanå and to the path, magga, the fruition, phala, and nibbåna(5 ). Samatha and vipassanå are developed together with satipatthåna and reach completion through satipatthåna, they should not be separated from each other. Effort is necessary to maintain the kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and reach completion. Footnote 5. See the Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², the ³Dispeller of Delusion² II, Ch 8, 292. 16336 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] PTSM #5 and a Question. Nina: >>< Adinavannananuddesa: Bhayatupat.th.ne panna: panna in seeing danger > in arising moment, sustaining moment, appearance (nimitta (sankharanimitta )), > accumulation (ayuhana (tanha)), and being born (patisandhi) in new plane of > existance. Nina: See also Vis. XXI, 38. It states that ayuhana, accumulation, is the kamma that is the cause of future rebirth-linking. These again are examples that insight leads to more detachment from nama an d rupa, but not at the beginning stages. >><< Num: The word “ayuhana” will be mentioned more in detail in PTSM under the nanakatha section. I remembered Robert asked A.Sujin about this term couple months ago. A.Supee also gave us his input. As far as I can remember (read remember, not understand :) ). “Ayuhana” refers to the cetana cetasika accompanied by samutaya. From the saccavibanga, suttantabhajaniya section, samutaya refers solely to lobha cetasika (tanha). In the abhidhammabhajaniya, which was explained in a “nothing left out style” (nippadesa-desana), samutaya refers to 1) tanha 2) the rest of the kilesas (the 9 kilesas) 3) the rest of akusaladhammas (all akusala cittas and their accompanied cetasikas) 4) the 3- kusulamulas (alobha/adosa/panna), which can be an object of asava, and 5) the rest of kusuladhamma (kusalacittas and their accompanied cetasikas), which can be an object of asava. So, my understanding, “ayuhana”, as you said, refers to the cetana cetasika as a nanakhanika kamma paccaya, which can be either kusala or akusala. I used to wonder why in paticcasamuppada, the link starts with avijja, but in the 4 noble truths, samutaya was stressed more. The nippadesa-desana above seems to cover it well. My understanding is lobha always co-occurs with avijja, and the tanha or lobha(of course with avijja) which the anagami cannot eradicate, still keeps him in the samsara (accumulating more rebirth). >>< word “anulomakhanti ", which refers to nana from kalapasammasana~nana – > anulomanana (3rd-12th nana according to 16 nana level in visuddhimagga). All > these 10 nanas have one of the tilakana (sankharadhamma) as its objects > (anulomakhanti, in Pali). >><< Nina: Question: Is there a connection with khanti, patience, or does it have another meaning here? Num: A.Supee said that here it means panna. A.Supee gave some references from the suttas, which I cannot recall at this moment. Thanks for your input. I will also try to ask more about the kalapasamasanana. “Appreciate” Num 16337 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jim, Thanks for this info. It makes sense but I don't exactly see how it makes a sentence. Could you give us the pali? Also I was wondering if having the "power of knowledge" (one of the attributes of the Kuru, along with being happy and healthy) is pa~n~naa bala? I understand that a power (bala) is unshakable by its opposite, in this case 'ignorance'. Having these three qualities seems to be the reason the Buddha considered the Kuru worthy of receiving this teaching. I'm understanding it in a rather loose, conventional sense as clear sighted certainty. Larry ------------------- Jim: "Dear Larry & Nina, L: QUESTION: what does "having set up the subject of meditation, in arahantship, in 21 places" mean? N: Could it be: in 21 locations in Kuru? I think Soma's translation of the line here is not very clear. The twenty-one places refer to the 21 meditation subjects (kamma.t.thaana-s, lit. workplaces) in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. These are the 14 subjects (including the 9 cemetery ones) for the contemplation of body, one each for feelings and mind, and five for the contemplation of dhammas -- totalling 21. This is according to the subcommentary which also explains "the subject of meditation" regarding arahantship to be the last one on the four truths (catusaccakamma.t.t.haana). Best wishes, Jim" 16338 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna Hi Kom, Nice to see you again. What does this mean?: "Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots one flame arises and another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is cessation of becoming, Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such perception arose in me and another such perception ceased. On that occasion, friend, I perceived that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming." Larry 16339 From: jinavamsa Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna hello Larry and all, As a Sufi friend of mine used to say, "If it's not one thing, it's another." What the passage you quote is apparently speaking to is the ongoing process of consciousness. The image of the transfer of heat/flame/fire from one faggot (stick of wood) to another, with the ending or cessation of the first and the arising of the second, is something that is of course talked about in the various descriptions of paticcasamuppada or dependent origination, as it is sometimes called. Unlike this sort of sequence is that which is free of such conditions for arising. We might recall that becoming here is often used to speak of the ongoing karmic (or kammic) processes that are creating still further conditions. Stepping out of that seemingly endless chain is the nibbana that is talked about. Now, why was his perception as verbalized in the 'NIbaana is cessation of becoming' uttered twice here? Do you take that to be more than simply emphasizing the idea? (the "one such perception" indicates that both are talking about or describing the same one perception, not two in a row, for example).... Jinavamsa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Kom, > > Nice to see you again. What does this mean?: > > "Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots one flame arises and > another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is cessation of becoming, > Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such perception arose in me and > another such perception ceased. On that occasion, friend, I perceived > that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming." > > Larry 16340 From: Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna Hi Jinavamsa, Hmmm, so perceiving (sanna?) "nibbana is the cessation of becoming" is itself a becoming but it is the perception of the cessation of becoming. Must be something like witnessing one's own funeral. Larry 16341 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:10pm Subject: Definition of Vipassana Hi, What is the definition of Vipassana? I found this article written by Shakya Aryanatta. What he wrote is different from from what I have been learning about Vipassana. I guess he must be wrong. Can anyone prove him wrong? Thanks, Rahula =========== Vipassana is identical with Sammasamadhi and means specifically [vi (to remove from, back unto, extract from one thing into another, always with the connotation of removing from something into another in a neutral sense of direction) +passa (backwards, antecedently; also meaning to "see spiritually into something with your inner being") +sati (anamnesis, antecedent-recollectiveness of a point of penetration)]. What is a horrific error is that people talk about Vipassana endlessly as the practice of Buddhism in and of itself; but this can never be the case and it never occurs in that manner in the entirety of the suttas. Vipassana can only be a modifier of another word at which Vipassana is aimed. As a separate word that modifies a point of focus (Samatha) it occurs exactly 161 times in sutta, 157 times as the phrase "samatho ca vipassana", and 125 times as Samathavipassana. There is no such existence of just Vipassana as a practice in and of itself within the entirely of the Buddhist suttas. Vipassana can only be a modifier as a point of focus upon something else, namely 99% of time that of Samatha [Samma (hypostasis, perfection) + attha (abode [of], otherworldly dwelling-abode, resting place in perfect sense)], meaning the supreme abode of Samma-perfection. The non-scriptural and heretical notion of the practice Vipassana as taught in many so- called Buddhist centers today runs opposite of the definition of Vipassana. To say that one practices Vipassana is akin to saying that you "ride", both are modifiers for a subject of focus, for instance you need say that you ride a car, ride a bike, ride a bus etc., but to say that you just ride has no meaning as such. This is the exactly same case of Vipassana which means only "to extract (disembody) antecedently by Sati-anamnesis into X", X being the point of focus and disembodiment which is usually the Samma-attha (samatha) or "the abode of Samma-perfection." The notion that Vipassana is somehow "insight" meditation is to do a vast injustice to sutta that teaches otherwise regarding the practice of Samathavipassana. Heretical non Buddhist factions that have gained a great favors from the uninformed masses have gone so far as to call Vipassana "self- psychotherapy", this notion is absurd and is a product of New Age esotericism which places fame and money over accuracy to Buddhist scripture. Vipassana is best analogized by saying that Vipassana is a magnifying glass, but in sutta it is used to focus upon (disembody) into something, namely the the Samma-attha. Those who have woefully taken Vipassana out of context to mean a practice that Buddhism teaches as a standalone methodology have done a great disservice to those who are genuinely interested in what Buddhism teaches. To say otherwise cannot be proven by even a single occurrence of the word Vipassana in scripture. 16342 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 4:58 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditative Experience of Nibanna > > > Hi Kom, > > Nice to see you again. What does this mean?: > > "Just as, friend Ananda, from a fire of faggots > one flame arises and > another flame ceases, even so, 'Nibbana is > cessation of becoming, > Nibbana is cessation of becoming' - one such > perception arose in me and > another such perception ceased. On that occasion, > friend, I perceived > that Nibbana is the cessation of becoming." > I think the V. was comparing fire to sanna (perception). As long as there are fuel (faggots), the flames arises, and what is born must cease. Sanna, the perception of nibbana, is like a flame. As long as there are conditions, it arises, and since it is born, the sanna of nibbana too must cease. How do you understand it? kom 16343 From: Purnomo . Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 0:11am Subject: bali blast dear friends, I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because we are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists know about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process of kamma do so Bali was boomed. I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! where is metta, purnomo 16344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 2:58am Subject: Re: bali blast Dear Purnomo, Please don't be upset and distressed, don't let the bombers cause you to feel anger and hatred. You are not their puppet. The intention of the violent ones is to further disrupt society, to cause more fear, anger, hatred and division. Don't give them that satisfaction, they would think it a great victory. Read the Scriptures about loving-kindness towards all, about compassion towards all, until you are able to abide in calmness. This awful time will pass. Life on Bali will return to being normal and peaceful once again. The holiday makers will return, the Balinese economy will recover. Try to use this horror as a reminder to intensify your practice. The whole world knows that this action was not done by Balinese. It is not part of some national kamma of Bali or Australia. It is just dukkha, it is just life in samsara. Remember always that the people of Bali are held in great affection and respect, especially by Australians. We visit your lovely, friendly, gentle country in our hundreds of thousands just because of those wonderful qualities. Mention the word Kuta and no-one needs to ask where that is. Bali and the Balinese are so well known and so loved and admired that an Australian even had a best selling song called "I've been to Bali too" - because Bali is such a delightful and popular place to visit anyone coming back from holidays there and telling others about it, would always be interrupted by a friend saying, "I've been to Bali, too". I understand that over a hundred and fifty people died. I understand they were from many countries, though the majority were Australian. There has been great grief in Bali, there has been great grief in Australia, and in isolated homes scattered all over the world. Tomorrow is a Day of Mourning here in Australia - flags will be flown at half-mast, all will be asked to observe a minutes silence, there will be religious ceremonies. We are your Dhamma friends Purnomo, and we understand, and wish every calm, gentle and loving feeling toward you. "May all beings be happy and safe, May they all have tranquil minds. Whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life - the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short, the thin or fat. Those visible, and those invisible, those living far away or nearby; Beings who are already born and those yet unborn. May they all be happy! May no-one deceive another, nor despise him in anyway anywhere. Let no-one wish another ill, owing to anger or provocation. Just as a mother would protect her son - her only son - with her life - even so let him cultivate this boundless love to all living beings. Radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness towards all the world, free from anger, malice or anxiety - above, below and in all directions. Hate is never overcome by hate By love alone it is quelled. This is a truth of ancient date. Today still unexcelled. Avoidance of evil, Performance of good deeds, Purification of one's thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. May all beings be happy." metta and karuna, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because we > are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I > don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? > That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists know > about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' > so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process of > kamma do so Bali was boomed. > > I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! > > where is metta, > > purnomo 16345 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I think there might be a slight difference between the knowledge in > satipatthana and insight knowledge of anicca/dukkha/anatta, but I'm not > sure. Maybe Nina could comment. For example, the inventory of the > various repulsive aspects of the body is rather objective and > impersonal. Insight seems to go further and say this is dukkha. I guess > the one could arise after the other, but my impression was that jhana > laid the ground for a deeper insight. Maybe I'm just getting mundane and > supra-mundane levels mixed up. I'm a little confused on this point. > > Larry > ps: of course insight knowledge would arise with sati. The insight knowledge (panna) that knows/sees the characteristic of anicca/dukkha/anatta of a dhamma is panna of a highly developed level. At less developed levels, panna may see the dhamma as a nama or rupa, but not its characteristic as anicca/dukkha/anatta. In either case, the dhamma is directly experienced as it truly is, but with different levels of insight. All levels of insight, as with all kusala mind-states, are accompanied by the mental factor that is sati (awareness). However, not all mind-states accompanied by sati are accompanied by panna. The term ‘satipatthana’, to my understanding, refers to those moments of awareness that are accompanied by panna of the level that directly experiences dhammas, in other words, moments of insight. These may be weak (less developed) insight or strong (highly developed) insight. I hope this helps. Jon 16346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': <> “Seeing” here is another word for “attending to”. But if you think about it, there cannot be “attending to” something without a clear idea of what the “something” is. Even when we call it “whatever arises”, there has to be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in effect, it seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment of directed attention. Jon > > It seems to me that if there is to be an attending that is truly an > > attending to *any* presently arising phenomenon, (i.e., any phenomenon > > that presents itself, without being concerned as to what that > phenomenon > > might be), this could only be an attending that is not deliberate or > > directed. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think this is so. I do not find it a contradiction in > terms. > The difference is that of mental readiness and heightened attentiveness. > It > is quite difficult to maintain such a high level without restricting > input, > which, in fact, is why formal concentrative meditation is most common, > but it > is not impossible. It is a skill that can be developed to varying > levels. > It's practice amounts to "seeing" whatever arises clearly without > "getting > lost". It is attempted by many vipassana meditators, and it is the basis > of > the formal, but unrestricted, meditation technique of shikantaza (sp?), > the > "just sitting" technique of Ch'an/Zen. And of course, there are > compromise > approaches: For example, during ordinary activities such as eating, > standing, > taking a walk, and even falling asleep, one can primarily restrict > attention > to bodily position and sensation. Other things will be noticed as well, > of > course, but the body is used as an "anchor". > ----------------------------------------------------- 16347 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] bali blast Hi, Purnomo - I'm very sorry, sorry for what has happened in your country and for the sadness it brings to you! It is not the kamma vipaka of the Balinese, but is the new kamma of the terrorists so mired in their ignorance and hatred. The victims are just victims. Of course the fruits of our own kamma play multiple roles in what we we experience, and it is impossible for us to unravel exactly where and to what extent, but, for the most part, the evil actions of misguided people are their own, and they bear primary responsibility for them. With metta, Howard (from the N.Y. City area, once home to the Twin Towers) In a message dated 10/19/02 3:11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, purnomo9@h... writes: > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people > > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because > we > are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I > don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? > That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists > know > about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' > so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process > of > kamma do so Bali was boomed. > > I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! > > where is metta, > > purnomo > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16348 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/19/02 8:10:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': > < "getting > lost".>> > > “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending toâ€?. But if you think about > it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something without a clear idea of what > the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it “whatever arisesâ€?, there has to > be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in effect, it > seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment of > directed attention. > > Jon > ======================= For you and me this is so, very much so. The more advanced and adept we become, the less true I believe it is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16349 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:01am Subject: Re: Definition of Vipassana --- Dear Rahula, here is a letter Nina van Gorkom wrote a while back that is relevant: , ""The development of vipassana, of satipatthana or of the eightfold Path, it all amounts to the same. It is the development of pa~n~naa that clearly knows the characteristics of dhammas. This has been taught in all parts of the scriptures, even though the word vipassana may not often occur. For example, in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Fourth Fifty Ch 3, § 204, Judas tree) the word dassana.m, seeing is used: translated by the PTS as insight. Dassati and passati (in vipassanaa) are both seeing. We should consider what should be seen? How is this seeing pure? We read, "friend, when a monk understands as they really are the arising and the destruction of the sixfold sense-sphere, to that extent is his insight fully developed." Thus, seeing all realities that appear through the six doors as they are, as impermanent. Is that not the goal? As Jon recently explained so clearly, we should not see the factors of the eightfold Path as a series of steps or a number of qualities each to be developed separately. Even if they are treated separately, they have to developed together. Without pa~n~naa the other factors are not factors of the eightfold Path. Jim explained the word vipassanaa: < the Patisambhidhamagga com. gives the following interpretation of vipassanaa: "Aniccataadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamma passatii ti vipassanaa." It sees realities in various aspects by way of impermanence and so on.> In the "Path of Discrimination" you will find many passages on insight and the stages of insight, Treatise on Knowledge, Ch XVII, Behaviour. Buddhaghosa in his commentaries uses the word vipassana very frequently: it should know the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas, thus whatever appears through the six doors, again and again. Jim mentioned that the Buddha Vipassii was given this name, I am delighted with this viceyya, viceyya passati, he sees constantly investigating. I need this reminder, I forget "good old seeing and good old visible object" as Jon so aptly remarked. It reminds me that just investigating once or twice is not enough. It is really difficult to know what is hearing and what is sound, how we mix up the two. But we find this not interesting enough, we rather think of "stories" about people and things. We may find situations very important. But, as Sarah recently wrote Robert wrote to Sukin:< When we are listening to dhamma or discussing or reading the texts, what cittas are present? Isn't there seeing and visible object, sound and hearing, bhavangacittas... It all points to understand the anattaness of dhammas that are arising now. These dhammas are arising right while listening or considering- now is the time to understand.> I believe that in this way we shall understand what vipassana is, we shall not worry how often this word is used in early texts, or whether it has been used more often in later texts. It is the message we find in the whole Tipitaka that counts: investigation of realities appearing now, so that we gradually can understand their true nature of anatta. "Constantly investigating he sees. " Best wishes, Nina. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > What is the definition of Vipassana? > > I found this article written by Shakya Aryanatta. What he wrote is > different from from what I have been learning about Vipassana. I > guess he must be wrong. Can anyone prove him wrong? > > Thanks, Rahula > > > =========== > > Vipassana is identical with Sammasamadhi and means specifically [vi > (to remove from, back unto, extract from one thing into another, > always with the connotation of removing from something into another > in a neutral sense of direction) +passa (backwards, antecedently; > also meaning to "see spiritually into something with > your inner being") +sati (anamnesis, antecedent-recollectiveness of a > point of penetration)]. What is a horrific error is that people talk > about Vipassana endlessly as the practice of Buddhism in and of > itself; but this can never be the case and it never occurs in that > manner in the entirety of the suttas. Vipassana > can only be a modifier of another word at which Vipassana is aimed. > 16350 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:19am Subject: Re: bali blast --- Dear Purnomo, I have a great feeling towards Bali and Indonesia.I think it is a country where many people have inclination and ability in Dhamma. I was last in Bali 2 years ago for 5 weeks. I visited the Brahma Vihara temple in Lovina for the second time. The head monk (I forget his name but he is about 76 years old is very knowledgeable and hospitable ) We had a very nice meeting (he had met T.A.sujin several times in bangkok)and had read Nina Van Gorkoms books. I do intend to visit again when I have a chance. I think there will always be, all over the world, foolish people who will use any means to further their aims. They cannot be reasoned with and the government may have to take strong measures. But that will all happen with or without us thinking much about it(unless we are leaders of our country). What we can do is develop the right understabnding of this moment - and then the characteristics of kamma and vipaka become clearer. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home. We are so popular because we > are kind and nice but, there are some people want to make us be angry. I > don't know what are we wrong ? Is this our kamma? > That isn't fun. We always remember to share metta. I think the tourists know > about it. so, what are we wrong? We always remember kamma. If we act 'bad' > so we know we will get bad kamma anytime. In Dhamma, I search how process of > kamma do so Bali was boomed. > > I cann't talk again. I am so sad and... angry! > > where is metta, > > purnomo > 16351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Jinavamsa, op 18-10-2002 00:14 schreef jinavamsa op jinavamsa@h...: . When you say > that only Buddhas teach satipatthana while others explain > it, do you mean that only Buddhas introduce the practice > in its original presentation (for a given age) and that > others are following that initial presentation? N: Only Buddhas discover through enlightenment the Truth all by themselves, the Truth of non-self. How to realize this? In developing satipatthana. The Buddha has passed away, but he left the Dhamma Vinaya as his heritage. We are so fortunate that his teachings are still available, and also the Commentaries. Wise friends, kaliyana mitta can help us with the practice of satipatthana. It is so very subtle and because of ignorance and clinging to results we can easily go the wrong way, I find. J: When you mention that satipatthana has as object > conditioned nama and rupa, what is its object when > the dhamma arising is an unconditioned dhamma? Does > that or can you link that with the original discussion > between Culla Naaga and his teacher Culla Summa, even > if the quotation in question is not to be found (pace > the citation) in the Patisambhida? N: The development of understanding of the objects included in the four Applications is the same as the development of the mundane eightfold Path. Thus, the objects are the conditioned namas and rupas in our life, just now. Just now while in a hurry to do different things, being at work in the office, experiencing pleasant objects or saddening objects. Culla Naaga was right. When we follow this way, eventually, after how many lives we do not know, the goal will be reached and the Path will be lokuttara. But why should we occupy ourselves with this now? I quote from the verse: . Don't we have wrong view now? Through satipatthana right view is being developed, but very, very gradually. This whole process goes much more slowly than we ever thought. However, it is so encouraging that we, thanks to the teachings, are enabled to begin, that we learn to see when and how we go wrong. With appreciation of your earnest study, Nina. > 16352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subtle rupas Hi Rob M, op 17-10-2002 16:24 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: I agree that it doesn't make sense > to try and experience all paramattha dhammas. N: I am glad. R: I am still not clear on how the rupas jivitindriya, masculinity or > feminity can be considered "produced rupas" (i.e. suitable for > practice of insight). What is the object if it is not a concept and > we are not looking at "indirect effects" such as heat from > jivitindriya? If we are looking at "indirect effects", then what are > the "indirect effects" of masculinity and femininity? My assumption > is that the object of insight which shows the heart base is the > existence of cittas (not the cittas themselves). Isn't this > an "indirect effect"? N: I am not sure about the term indirect effect. Produced rupas, suitable for insight: this does not mean that everybody will experience directly their characteristics. It means that they are concrete rupas, realities which *can* be experienced. When time comes and they appear one can see for oneself. Who knows what will appear to sati and panna? Thus, we should not exclude them as objects of insight, that is all. Indirect effects, this is thinking about them. The "indirect effects" of masculinity and femininity: these rupas are all over the body and therefore we can discern this is a man, this is a woman. There is seeing of visible object and on account of this we know, this is a man, this is a woman. We learn that the heartbase (but we do not have to call it heartbase, it is designated as : that rupa) is the physical base of cittas other than the sense-cognitions. We can think of this fact, but we do not know who can be directly aware of it. Let us not try!! R: I am still trying to get my mind around the idea that Satipatthana > is not meditation, but something that could/should be part of every > moment. Would it be correct to call Satipatthana a "perspective"? N: I am not inclined to use the word perspective, it is too weak:It sounds like: just one point of view and there are other perspectives. Satipatthana is mental development, bhavana. We can use the word meditation for bhavana, but this word has different meanings for different people. Some people think of sitting and certain rules to be followed when they use the word meditation. There are no rules for satipatthana. Part of every moment? I do not think every moment. I think, daily life. Daily life is also the life of the monk and of laypeople who are inclined to sit in meditation and develop samatha. It is for all kinds of lifestyles and nothing is excluded. Some people have excruciating doubts about the Path, the teachings, the goal. Also doubt is included: only a conditioned nama. Isn't it wonderful that nothing is excluded? R: I also have an unrelated question. In Nyanatiloka's Buddhist > Dictionary, under the entry for "Sankhara", it says that there are > three types of sankhara; demeritorious (arises only in Kamavacara), > meritorious (arises in Kamavacara or Rupavacara) and imperturbable > (arises only in Arupavacara). Can I say that demerititorious is > equivalent to akusala? N: Yes. R:Certainly a person in the 5th Jhana must > continue to generate kamma, so this implies that imperturbable is a > special class of kusala. What makes it special? N: Arupa jhanacitta, and the type of citta is the same as the highest rupajhana. The meditation subject is no longer connected with materiality, thus extremely calm. But it is not the goal, because it can still have rebirth as effect. I should thank all those who ask questions, because they help me too to consider more. As always, I enjoyed your questions and appreciate your earnestness, Nina. 16353 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Larry, op 18-10-2002 01:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > This section gives an indication of the relathionship between > satipatthana and 'analytical knowledge' (patisambhida nana). I wonder if > we are placing too much emphasis on the panna that accompanies > satipatthana. Maybe panna should be considered to be a result of > satipatthana and more closely associated with patisambhida nana. N: We read that Pitamalla attained arahatship with the Patisambiddhas, analytical knowledges. Not for everybody, not for people in this time. The Buddha and some arahats had these discriminative knowledges. They are the highest attainments. See the Post Sarah recommended from the archives. Even Arahats had different degrees of wisdom, not all of them had these discriminative knowledges. Never enough emphasis on panna: it should be developed from beginning to end. Panna which begins, and then panna which becomes insight knowledge of different stages. How otherwise can it be realized that rupa and nama are ? As we read: For the last sentence I shall look up the Pali, it is somewhat strange. Jim gave me the text. L: Discerning whether a breath is long or short is surely not panna. Any > clarification? N: When we think of the context of samatha, there must be panna which knows how to develop calm with this subject, which knows the difference between akusala citta and kusala citta. Lobha may come in time and again, does it not? Attachment to: I want to do this, I want result, I want to become calm. Strong mindfulness also is necessary as the Vis. states. And here in the Satipatthana sutta the objective is indicated: to take realities appearing when developing mindfulness of breathing as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Is that not panna? If you take a deep breath just now, Larry, so many things can happen, forgetfulness and moha, or, awareness of some namas and rupas. Is there no hardness, feeling, thinking? I have to take a deep breath, aw, I am nervous. I have to perform on my recorder (Maraing Marais) at a house concert just now. I may forget my first duty! Nina. 16354 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, for the purfication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief..." Hi Jon, I think the commentary on these words relates to our discussion. FOR THE PURIFUICATION OF BEINGS: Purification is achieved by abandoning the taints (sensual desire, desire for permanent being, views, and ignorance). I understand from Num's comments on Psm. that ignorance (and views) are also manifestations of desire. How this abandoning comes about is as it may be, but I think for many people the discipline of formal practice prompts understanding (panna). FOR THE OVERCOMING OF SORROW AND LAMENTATION: Here analytical knowledge or understanding spontaneously arose upon hearing a verse. The tika says this could not have happened without the previous development of wisdom (panna) through contemplating form, feeling, consciousness or dhammas. This suggests to me that satipatthana is more contemplative than I thought, but I still would be averse to thinking of it as academic or scholarly. FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF SUFFERING AND GRIEF: Here extreme physical pain is suppressed and insight is developed. This also seems to depend on previous discipline and contemplation. L: So I guess my 'feel' for the contemplative nature of satipatthana is expanded to include both ongoing contemplation and a moment's insight, but I think the develpment of purity by abandoning desires is a good element to bring to the bavana. I notice the desire to understand isn't a taint but I don't exactly see why not. I would think all desire is ultimately based on a 'self' view. Maybe desire to understand is included in the views taint. If so, where does that leave the practice? Let go of the desire to understand but continue to contemplate? Larry 16355 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Nina, Maybe I am getting stuck on the technical characteristics of panna. For example, its proximate cause is concentration. Sanna, vinnana, and panna are all 'understanding'. Plus there are 12 different kinds of panna; none of which I have investigated yet. Plus I don't understand what is included in individual essense (sabhava) and what isn't. And really I have yet to see the instruction to regard something as impermanent, dukkha, anatta explicitly linked to mindfulness. And also under "How is it [panna] developed" it doesn't explicitly say "satipatthana". So there is a lot to investigate here. I know 'satipatthana' is also a general term that includes anything in the 8-fold path. Larry 16356 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bali blast Dear Purnomo I have nothing much to add. Christine, Howard, and Robert have already shared thier very kind, deep, and wise input. <>. I am not really good at talking, but I's like to say that I am glad that you have shared your pain, suffering, and distress with us on dsg. I hope we will hear more from you. Again, grief when shared is half. Best wishes. Num <> 16357 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Ayatana re-revisit. Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert, and all. Nina : >><><< I brought your question to the Eng. discussion. I have to admit that I was delighted by the all day discussion we had yesterday. It was very interactive. When someone asked a question, everyone shared his/her input, and opinions. There were a good dose of both laughter and tease. Let me try to put the information together: A.Sujin asked us to read from Vism and Vibhanga regarding the definitions of ayatana. Briefly from Vibhanga, Vism and Abms: ayatana means 1) a dwelling place (nivasa, nissayapaccaya) for cittas and cetasikas, 2) a birthplace (sa~njati) for cittas and cetasikas, 3) bringing along (akara) 4) a meeting place (samosarana) for cittas, cetasikas, dvara, and arammana, and 5) a root (hetu, karana). In an eye-door process (cakhudvaravithi), the vithi starts at an adverting citta (avajjana citta). Although the visible object (ruparammana), and the eye-base (cakhupasada) have arisen before the process starts, as purejatapaccayas. The 3 bhavanga cittas are not really a part of the process but was put in as a reference for the beginning of the object and base. Let me review very briefly. 12 ayatanas: 5 sense-bases, and their correspondent objects ( = 10) ayatanas. The manayatana(11) refers to all citta, and dhammayatana(12) covers cetasikas, subtle rupas, and nibbana. From the definitions of ayatana above, ayatana refers to the realities, which exist at that present moment to perform each own function. Pannatti is not counted as ayatana b/c it’s not a reality. Arammana can be ayatana if it still presents at that present moment. ++++++++++++++ An eye-door process: At the 3 moments of bhanvagas, there are 2 ayatanas: manayatana(bhavanga citta itself) and dhammayatana (the cetasikas that are accompaning bhavanga citta). At the adverting consciousness moment, there are 4 ayatanas met. The adverting consciousness is manayatana(1), the cetasikas accommpanying adverting consciousness are dhammayatana(2), the visible-object is rupayatana(3), the pasadarupa is cakhayatana(4). At the seeing conscious moment, there are 4 ayatanas met. The seeing consciousness is manayatana(1), its accompanied cetasikas is dhammayatana(2), the visible-object is rupayatana(3), and the pasadarupa is cakayatana(4). The rest of the process (6th -17th) is the same. The visible object has arisen and has not yet fallen away during the whole process: rupayatana. The eye-base (pasadarupa) is there at the same time and also has not fallen away through out the process. So the eyebase is still a paccaya for the process. Although the eye- base is a dvara for only seeing consciousness, but without the eye-base, the adverting cannot arise to perform its functions and the rest of the cittas in the process cannot arise. At the moment of 3 bhavangas, although the visible object and the eye-base have already arisen, but the bhavanga does not have the visible object as its object, so visible object is not a cakhayatana at that moment. The same goes for pasadarupa during the 3 bhavanga moments. The arammana of bhavanga citta is a concept or the past arammana (the object that already has fallen away, so it cannot be called ayatana at that moment. ************************ For the mind-door process: When the mind-door process is having panntti (concept) as its object: there are 2 ayatana (manayatana and dhammayatana). Concept is not an ayatana. When the mind-door process is having rupa as its object continues from the five- door process: there are 2 ayatanas (manayatana and dhammayatana). The rupa is a past object b/c it has completely away with the sense-door process citta. It’s not a present object, so cannot be counted as ayatana. In a person who can have subtle rupa as his/her object (the subtle rupa can be known only through the mind-door). There still only 2 ayatanas but it is somewhat different. The cittas in a mind-door process are manayatana, their accompanies cetasikas are dhammayatana, and the subtle is also a dhammayatana, b/c it is a present object during the mind-door process. So there are 2 different realities under the dhammayatana. When the mind-door process is having nibbana as its object. There are 2 ayatanas, and the reason is the same as when the cittas in the mind-door process have a subtle rupa as its object. I think Robert can give some more detail. (Robert, may I ask you to make a post on samasaananana?) Have to run. Best wishes. Num 16358 From: Brian Kelley Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hello everyone, I've just joined this group at Howard's suggestion. In response to something I posted on the dhamma-list, Howard wrote, "Hi, Brian - I find this post of yours very interesting, particularly with regard to the relationship between the jhanas and Abhidhamma knowledge. Do you, by any chance, subscribe to DSG? I would love the folks there to read your post." I look forward to continuing in this group as I continue my first baby steps in studying the Abhidhamma. I've combined the two posts into one. The initial post was a brief summary, the second a response to questions. ------------------------ Back from retreat 1 Hi everyone, Just returned from a weeklong introduction to the Abhidhamma at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies. It was a delightful week, filled with many of those very pleasurable moments of "Aha! Now I understand." We were blessed with two wonderful teachers. In the mornings and afternoons, we delved into Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma," with Andrew Olendzki, a Pali scholar and the Director of BCBS. In the evenings, we were taught by Sister Susila, a nun visiting from a monastery in Burma. She gave us another perspective on the material, and taught us how, in her monastery, the Abhidhamma informs and guides their meditation practice. It was a marvelous week, and I note just a little clinging, wishing it could have gone on longer. Oh well. (happy face) Looking forward to catching up on the messages I've missed while I was away -- hope everyone is well and happy. Much love, Brian ------------------------------------ Back from retreat 2 Hello Jack, I hope you won't mind if I reply to each question in turn. Jack: Tell us more about your week. Brian: With pleasure. Thanks for asking. Jack: Was there a practice component to the teachings? Brian: Very much so, especially from Sister Susila. At the outset, we were told (by Andy Olendzki) that at Sister's monastery (Pa Auk Tawga, a forest monastery in southern Burma) students don't even approach the Abhidhamma until they have developed the jhanas in their meditation practice. Very strong concentration is required so that one can begin to actually see these states as they arise. During the week, in addition to the classroom teachings, Sister also gave meditation instructions: one on how to use mindfulness of breathing (after which she described the process for developing access concentration and the jhanas), and another on the analysis of the four elements. In the analysis of the four elements, one moves one's attention systematically through the body and feels the sensations of each of the characteristics of the 4 elements (12 characteristics altogether.) For the earth element, one would feel: hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, and lightness. For water element: flowing and cohesion. For fire element: hot and cold. For air element: supporting and pushing. (It was said that the analysis of the four elements can lead to access concentration, but not to jhana.) I enjoyed doing the four element meditation very much, but it can be very tiring to the mind, especially at first. I have a handout describing the Pa Auk method for developing the four elements meditation. I had been thinking that I could type it in and post it to the list, but on second thought I suspected that one should be taught this material by a teacher in a face-to-face context, who can answer any questions that might arise. What do you think? Jack: What was your biggest "aha"? Brian: Well, there was a whole string of them. Just little moments when things were unclear but then came into focus and I suddenly understood, I could see what they were getting at. That's such a pleasurable feeling! The buzz of learning. My strategy for this week was to use the hour (more or less) before each class period to do sitting meditation, to make my mind as concentrated as possible, and then in the classes to just open my heart and let the teachings flow in. I wasn't trying to do a lot of analyzing or "chewing on" the material, but to simply be receptive. I suspect that bigger "aha"s await as the material metabolizes and becomes integrated. It's still very new. Jack: How much did they stress Dependent Origination? Brian: Actually, it was only brought up long enough to quickly go through the classic 12-link formulation and then say that we wouldn't be dealing much with that model. We focused on the Abhidhamma model of conditionality (the 24 conditions) but unfortunately it was getting toward the end and we did not have nearly enough time to really begin to look into its complexities. Jack: Did they tie together analysis of consciousness with liberational strategies? Brian: Oh, yes. For me, the thought arose that the Abhidhamma material was the result of looking at the five aggregates with a much bigger and more powerful magnifying glass, and describing what's there with greater precision and finer detail. By looking more closely at the body and mind with strong concentration, anatta can actually be seen and experienced. What appears so solid and "real" are just phenomena arising and ceasing very quickly. Seeing this as it's happening (really seeing it, not just thinking about it) leads to liberating insight. That's my current understanding (or misunderstanding) of it, anyway. Thanks for asking, Jack. How does all this strike you? With metta, Brian 16359 From: jinavamsa Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana hello Nina and all, Yes, it is good to have access to kalyana mittas (if I may use that plural here). About the gradual coming to see into process, it is indeed a long path, a gradual one, as you say. Thank you for your very inspired and inspiring reply. Jinavamsa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jinavamsa, > > op 18-10-2002 00:14 schreef jinavamsa op jinavamsa@h...: > > . When you say > > that only Buddhas teach satipatthana while others explain > > it, do you mean that only Buddhas introduce the practice > > in its original presentation (for a given age) and that > > others are following that initial presentation? > N: Only Buddhas discover through enlightenment the Truth all by themselves, > the Truth of non-self. How to realize this? In developing satipatthana. The > Buddha has passed away, but he left the Dhamma Vinaya as his heritage. We > are so fortunate that his teachings are still available, and also the > Commentaries. Wise friends, kaliyana mitta can help us with the practice of > satipatthana. It is so very subtle and because of ignorance and clinging to > results we can easily go the wrong way, I find. > > J: When you mention that satipatthana has as object > > conditioned nama and rupa, what is its object when > > the dhamma arising is an unconditioned dhamma? Does > > that or can you link that with the original discussion > > between Culla Naaga and his teacher Culla Summa, even > > if the quotation in question is not to be found (pace > > the citation) in the Patisambhida? > N: The development of understanding of the objects included in the four > Applications is the same as the development of the mundane eightfold Path. > Thus, the objects are the conditioned namas and rupas in our life, just now. > Just now while in a hurry to do different things, being at work in the > office, experiencing pleasant objects or saddening objects. Culla Naaga was > right. When we follow this way, eventually, after how many lives we do not > know, the goal will be reached and the Path will be lokuttara. But why > should we occupy ourselves with this now? I quote from the verse: that Way there is no other for the purifying of vision> . Don't we have > wrong view now? Through satipatthana right view is being developed, but > very, very gradually. This whole process goes much more slowly than we ever > thought. However, it is so encouraging that we, thanks to the teachings, are > enabled to begin, that we learn to see when and how we go wrong. > With appreciation of your earnest study, > Nina. > > 16360 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi, Brian - In a message dated 10/19/02 8:46:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bkelley1@n... writes: > > Hello everyone, > > I've just joined this group at Howard's suggestion. In response to > something I > posted on the dhamma-list, Howard wrote, "Hi, Brian - I find this post of > yours > very interesting, particularly with regard to the relationship between the > jhanas and Abhidhamma knowledge. Do you, by any chance, subscribe to > DSG? I would love the folks there to read your post." ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow, that was *fast*! I'm happy to see you here. :-) =========================== With metta, Howard (The remainder of your post is snipped) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16361 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, > Thanks for this info. It makes sense but I don't exactly see how it > makes a sentence. Could you give us the pali? It was only part of the sentence. Here's the whole sentence in Pali: tena tesa.m bhagavaa ima.m gambhiiradesanaapa.tiggaha.nasamatthata.m sampassanto ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaa ida.m gambhiirattha.m satipa.t.thaanasutta.m abhaasi. Soma Thera's translation: "Therefore, the Blessed One, perceiving their ability to appreciate this profound instruction, proclaimed to them this Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness, which is deep in meaning, having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places." I find "having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahantship, in twenty-one places." unclear especially with the "in Arahantship" part thrown in. The subcommentary has: kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaati catusaccakamma.t.thaana.m yathaa arahatta.m paapeti, eva.m desanaavasena arahatte pakkhipitvaa. Soma translates "kamma.t.thaana.m arahatte pakkhipitvaa" as "having set up [pakkhipitvaa] the subject of meditation [kamma.t.thaana.m], in Arahantship [arahatte]," (I have inserted the Pali in square brackets).The subco. leaves little doubt that the meditation subject meant here is the one on the four truths (in the section on mental objects) and says that it brings about arahantship. "eva.m desanaavasena" = "thus by way of a teaching" is unclear in the context. It could be saying something about "arahatte" or it could be the conclusion of the preceding phrase. I find it very difficult to make sense of the Pali or Soma's rendering. In view of the simile of filling a golden basket with divers flowers or a golden casket with precious jewels, my tentative interpretation is "after having laid out, from among the twenty-one, a meditation subject pertaining to arahantship (to the inhabitants of the Kuru country)". > Also I was wondering if having the "power of knowledge" (one of the > attributes of the Kuru, along with being happy and healthy) is pa~n~naa > bala? I understand that a power (bala) is unshakable by its opposite, in > this case 'ignorance'. Having these three qualities seems to be the > reason the Buddha considered the Kuru worthy of receiving this teaching. > I'm understanding it in a rather loose, conventional sense as clear > sighted certainty. You're right in thinking that the "power of knowledge" is pa~n~naabala in Pali, but it comes as part of a longer compound 'anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa' which is best seen in the following sentence: te cittasariirakallataaya anuggahitapa~n~naabalaa gambhiirakatha.m pariggahetu.m samatthaa honti. Soma translates this as: "They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings." I find 'happy' unusual. I think it may be a translation of 'anuggahita-' -- favoured, assisted, helped. My tentative translation is: "They, having the power of understanding -- helped by a healthy state of mind and body, were capable of fully comprehending a profound talk. The subco. has: anuggahitapa~n~naabalaati laddhupakaara~naa.naanubhaavaa, anu anu vaa aaci.n.napa~n~naatejaa. "having the power of understanding -- helped by" -- having the power of knowledge with the help obtained from or (alternatively) having the fire of understanding -- accumulated through repetition. Note that 'aanubhaava' and 'teja' are synonyms for 'bala'. Best wishes, Jim 16362 From: Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Thanks Jim, Your comments at least made me more comfortable with my own bewilderment. I thought maybe I could pick out a clue in the pali, but it was way beyond me. Coincidentally I was in a bookstore today and noticed that Joseph Goldstein has a new book out called "One Way". It's a broad nontechnical book covering several traditions but the chapter on satipatthana actually seems to be following the commentary and for pa~n~naabala he had "love of wisdom". That seemed pretty apt to me. "Helped by" healthy body and mind does make more sense than "happy with"... Larry 16363 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:42pm Subject: Meeting with Acharn somporn I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows itself by clinging to wrong practice. He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed looking 82 years old. Robert 16364 From: azita gill Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] bali blast --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy > that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home> > > dear Purnomo, > I think this has affected many people the same way. > I read in an earlier post about the 4 sublime states taught by the Buddha: > Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha. they are the right or ideal way of conduct towards living beings. They provide the answer to all situations arising from social contact. They are the great removers of tension, the great peace-makers in social conflict and the great healers of wounds suffered in the struggle of existence. They level social barriers, build harmonious communities, awaken slumbering magnamity long forgotten, revive joy and hope long abandoned, and promote human brother/sisterhood against the forces of egotism. > Imagine a world like that! Can we have the 4 Sublime states towards the perpetrators of this terrible act??? Maybe a Buddha could, maybe we can if there is Sati at this present moment. > We can be aware of anger and sadness at this moment, as just anger and sadness, not mine, not yours, not lasting, > have courage, Purnomo. < Azita 16365 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] bali blast Dear Purmono, Today is a Day of mourning here in Australia. I was invited by the Prime Minister to represent the Buddhist Faith in an Interdenominational Service at St. Francis Catholic Cathedral. It was a very moving and sad ceremony but nobody blames the Baliness. We in Australia love your people and your island and we will never blame the Indonesians. With much metta. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: azita gill [mailto:gazita2002@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Octubre 20, 2002 05:06 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: Re: [dsg] bali blast --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > > dear friends, > > I think you have heard about Bali blast. The tragedy > that bring some people > wound and died. I am so angry. Bali is my home> > > dear Purnomo, > I think this has affected many people the same way. > I read in an earlier post about the 4 sublime states taught by the Buddha: > Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha. they are the right or ideal way of conduct towards living beings. They provide the answer to all situations arising from social contact. They are the great removers of tension, the great peace-makers in social conflict and the great healers of wounds suffered in the struggle of existence. They level social barriers, build harmonious communities, awaken slumbering magnamity long forgotten, revive joy and hope long abandoned, and promote human brother/sisterhood against the forces of egotism. > Imagine a world like that! Can we have the 4 Sublime states towards the perpetrators of this terrible act??? Maybe a Buddha could, maybe we can if there is Sati at this present moment. > We can be aware of anger and sadness at this moment, as just anger and sadness, not mine, not yours, not lasting, > have courage, Purnomo. < Azita 16366 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi again, Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I guess my point was that reading dhamma, and commentaries on dhamma, > thinking about dhamma, talking about dhamma, writing about dhamma, > attending dhamma talks, and applying these ideas to one's own experience > amounts to dhammanupassana ... To my understanding, the term ‘dhammanpassana’ has a very specific meaning: it refers to a moment of satipatthana (direct experience of the true nature of a presently arising dhamma) only. It does not refer to instances of thinking about dhamma or doing dhamma-related things. This is also true of the other 3 ‘anupassana-s’. They all refer to moments of direct experience of dhammas; they differ only in that they describe direct experience in relation to different kinds of dhammas (however, this distinction need not overly concern us, since it is a distinction made mainly for the purpose of explanation; the 4th anupassana (dhammanupasana) in fact includes all objects of the other 3 anupassana-s also). > ... but I doubt if you will find anything in the > suttas or commentaries about email list groups or flying to Bangkok to > listen to a lecture. Agreed, the various situations you mention here are not spelled out in the sutta or commentaries. But enough situations are given in the sutta to indicate that *any* situation is a situation in which satipatthana can occur (e.g., … when he is going, standing, sitting, lying down, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going' etc; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it). > ... In other words, the details and particulars of a> practice needn't be spelled out in the commentaries in order to be > legitimate. It seems to me that the details and particulars of the practice *are* given in the sutta itself (contemplating body in body, feeling in feeling, consciousness in consciousness, mental object in mental object). The ‘what is’ is there, but not the ‘how to’. The reason for this, I suggest, is that satipatthana is a matter of the *understanding of things as they truly are*, and this is not something that can be reduced to a technique of any kind. It does not mean that the 'how to' is a matter of whatever anyone finds 'works' for them. Jon 16367 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/20/02 4:49:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > To my understanding, the term ‘dhammanpassana’ has a very specific > meaning: it refers to a moment of satipatthana (direct experience of the > true nature of a presently arising dhamma) only. It does not refer to > instances of thinking about dhamma or doing dhamma-related things. > > This is also true of the other 3 ‘anupassana-s’. They all refer to > moments of direct experience of dhammas; they differ only in that they > describe direct experience in relation to different kinds of dhammas > (however, this distinction need not overly concern us, since it is a > distinction made mainly for the purpose of explanation; the 4th > anupassana (dhammanupasana) in fact includes all objects of the other 3 > anupassana-s also). > ======================= Jon, do you find this explanation of the difference (or lack of difference) between dhammanupassana and the others completely adequate? (Actually, isn't it more a matter of establishments of mindfulness than of insight? The Satipatthana Sutta is not called the Vipassanapatthana Sutta.) It seems to me that the Buddha surely had a significant distinction in mind in presenting the 4th foundation of mindfulness, and not just leaving it at the first three. It seems to me that one possibility, plausible based on a reading of the sections on the first three foundations, is that conceptualization is essentially involved in these sections, especially in the section on mindfulness of the body, these representing the earlier stages of practice, and that the fourth foundation involves the same objects as the first three, but with mindfulness (and other factors) having led to wisdom so that the elements of body, feelings, and states of mind are seen directly with insight, and with the "dhammas" which constitute the objects of the fourth foundation being paramattha dhammas. (This is not so in the first foundation section. The breath, itself, is not a paramattha dhamma. Neither is walking, nor is knowing that "There is a body", nor is thinking about the body as a sack filled with junk.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16368 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 7:18am Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn somporn2 --- I add some more about the conversation with A. Somporn. I have mentioned in the past that he was on the governemnt commitee that translates the Tipitaka into Thai. Among his translations include the Abhidhammamattha-sangaha . I asked about being born in the deva world and whether the long life and happy surroundings there were more conducive to Dhamma than our difficult lives as human (this in my very broken Thai with some help from Khun Sujit (khun sujin's sister). He said that the manussia (sp?) the human world is the best as even the Buddha was born here and here the parami are perfected. He said the highest happiness (Kwam suk) is khandha parinnibbana because that is the end of nama and rupa. If the path is right then nibban will be attained if not in this life then in future lives.(I paraphrase as I couldn't understand it all. T.A. Sujin said earlier that day that all the 4 truths are extremly profound and so the 4h truth - path truth- maggasacca is hard to comprehend. That tanha supported by avijja always moves self (sakkya ditthi ) away from understanding the reality of this moment whether it be kusala or akusaa or viapka or kiriya. w Avijja and tanha cannot understand dhamma but they can fool one into thinking there is understanding. If panna arises then there is no self doing anything but there is understanding of the moment. In the paticca samuppada she expalined that avijja paccaya sankhara and sankhara includes kusala and akusala. How does ignorance condition akusala ? Avijja is like the earth that is the basis for all types of plants; both the benefiical and the poisonous. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma > when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've > listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how > long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) > is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. > I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest > in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was > fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been > a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed > looking 82 years old. > Robert 16369 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, Two points: 1. Way 11 tika: "just the contemplation of material form (corpreality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness " L: there are many ways of arousing mindfulness, these discussions here are one of them. 2. You wrote: "satipatthana is a matter of the *understanding of things as they truly are*, and this is not something that can be reduced to a technique of any kind. It does not mean that the 'how to' is a matter of whatever anyone finds 'works' for them." L: I think the commentary points out that there are different ways of understanding satipatthana. I agree as a means of understanding realities is valid, but for me it is basically a means of letting go of the proliferation of attachment. As such, I would say technique does play a role and different techniques are more suitable for different people. This discussion is a technique, in my view. Larry 16370 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:58am Subject: "in Arahatship" Way 10: "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in twenty-one places..." Hi Jim, I came up with another reading for this. It is different from the tika, but since there are different readings of "ekayana" I don't see why there couldn't be different readings of "in Arahatship". I have it as "in Arahatship having set up the subject of meditation in 21 places". "Places" meaning that the object of meditation is a place where attention is focused, the breath for instance. "In Arahatship" links to the idea that it is best to receive one's own particular meditation object from an arahat. I rearranged the words a little but it doesn't make that much difference; it's still an awkward construction. We could just as well leave the order as Soma Thera has it. It's just that this way of understanding "in Arahatship" makes more sense to me than as an oblique reference to the 4 truths. Can you think of any objections? Also, it occurred to me that the use of 'place' could be considered as slight inferential support for the idea that the object of satipatthana is a paramattha dhamma rather than a concept, as in jhana. I still maintain that this is a conventional use of 'paramattha dhamma', that there are no pure states of either concept or paramattha dhamma, but this is nevertheless a useful distinction. Larry ps: which is best: arhat, arahat, arahant, or arahanta? 16371 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear Larry, > Thanks Jim, > > Your comments at least made me more comfortable with my own > bewilderment. I thought maybe I could pick out a clue in the pali, but > it was way beyond me. > > Coincidentally I was in a bookstore today and noticed that Joseph > Goldstein has a new book out called "One Way". It's a broad nontechnical > book covering several traditions but the chapter on satipatthana > actually seems to be following the commentary and for pa~n~naabala he > had "love of wisdom". That seemed pretty apt to me. > > "Helped by" healthy body and mind does make more sense than "happy > with"... I'd like to correct the following from my earlier post: "or (alternatively) having the fire of understanding -- accumulated through repetition" The 'accummulated' is my mistranslation of 'aacin.n.na-' (practised) which I at first thought was derived from the root 'ci' to collect but it turns out that it comes from 'car' (go, wander, roam). For 'aaci.n.na' the PED gives the meanings of "practised, performed, (habitually) indulged in". It just goes to show that I really shouldn't try to give a translation of something that is beyond my capacity or without much further study. The 'anuggahitapa~n~naabala' compound is a difficult one to translate in relation to the healthiness of body and mind. I think Soma's 'happy with' is related to the PED meanings under 'anuggahiita'-- commiserated, made happy, satisfied -- which he associates with the Kurus and their healthy bodies and minds even though anuggahita belongs to the power of knowledge. Reading Pali with limited understanding and limited dictionaries is fraught with such difficulties and one can only guess at the meanings. Best wishes, Jim 16372 From: Brian Kelley Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 0:03pm Subject: A Question about proximate cause Hello everyone, I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. I'm working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa goes: "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of femininity and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the characteristic of the female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show femininity and masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual structure of the body, for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine or masculine occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as expected, the proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the proximate cause of masculinity and femininity be? Thank you in advance for your assistance. With mettaa, Brian Kelley 16373 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 3:21pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question a couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of heart base). His reply was: 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 great elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were the only "blanks". What made you ask this question? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. I'm > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa goes: > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of femininity > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the characteristic of the > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show femininity and > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual structure of the body, > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine or masculine > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as expected, the > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the proximate > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > With mettaa, > Brian Kelley 16374 From: Brian Kelley Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 great essentials, but I wanted to be certain. The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this material, I am making what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of the tables found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will consist of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on ruupa -- typing in all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things together. The idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew Olendzki. Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the heart base; I probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! With metta and gratitude, Brian - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Brian, > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question a > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of heart > base). His reply was: > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 great > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were the > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. > I'm > > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive > Manual of > > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa > goes: > > > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of > femininity > > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the > characteristic of the > > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show > femininity and > > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, > work, and > > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual > structure of the body, > > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine > or masculine > > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." > > > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as > expected, the > > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the > proximate > > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > > > With mettaa, > > Brian Kelley 16375 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Way 14, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on, "for the destruction of suffering and grief" Sakka, king of the gods, after seeing the five portents, afraid of death and grief-stricken, came to the Buddha and asked a question; at the close of the answering of that question by the Buddha, Sakka was established in the first stage of arahantship. Eighty thousand other gods were established together with Sakka in the same stage of sanctity. And the life of Sakka again was restored to just its original state [Tika] through his rebirth once more as the king of the gods. Further it is said that Subrahma the god was partaking of the delights of paradise in the company of a thousand heavenly nymphs. There, five hundred of the nymphs, while picking flowers from a tree, died and were reborn in a state of woe. He, having seen their rebirth in a state of woe and having understood that the end of his own life was approaching and that he too would at death be reborn in that very state of woe, was frightened. Then he went to the Buddha with his five hundred remaining nymphs and said this to the Lord: The heart is always in a state of fear, And is always full of anguish drear, Concerning things that have now taken place, All things which shortly I shall have to face. If there's a place that's free from ev'ry fear, That fear-free place wilt thou to me make clear?[13] The Blessed One replied to him as follows: Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the holy state, Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless living beings.[14] At the end of the instruction, Subrahma and his five hundred nymphs were established in the first stage of awakening, and he, it is said, returned to his paradise, having made firm the heavenly fortunate state of life that was his before. It should be understood that this way developed in this manner is conducive to the destruction of grief of those like Sakka. 13. Samyutta Nikaya I, P. 53. P.T.S. Edition 14. Samyutta Nikaya i, p.54. P.T.S. Edition 16376 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. The Blessed One replied to him as follows: Besides the wakening factors of the truth, Besides the virtues of the holy state, Besides restraint and relinquishment full, I see nothing that can bless living beings.[14] 14. Samyutta Nikaya i, p.54. P.T.S. Edition Hi all, Does anyone know if this sutta is on-line? Also, what does it mean? Larry 16377 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, Glad to help. Sounds like an interesting project. Please tell me more about it. I teach a beginners class in Abhidhamma each Sunday morning in Kuala Lumpur. You might want to download my class notes in the files section of the DSG. This is work in progress and I update the on- line version each month. I am currently working on Conditional Relations. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 great essentials, > but I wanted to be certain. > > The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this material, I am making > what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of the tables > found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will consist > of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on ruupa -- typing in > all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things together. The > idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew Olendzki. > > Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the heart base; I > probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! > > With metta and gratitude, > Brian > > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question a > > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of heart > > base). His reply was: > > > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 great > > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were the > > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I have. > > I'm > > > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive > > Manual of > > > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about bhaavaruupa > > goes: > > > > > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties of > > femininity > > > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the > > characteristic of the > > > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show > > femininity and > > > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, > > work, and > > > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual > > structure of the body, > > > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical feminine > > or masculine > > > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine deportment." > > > > > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation as > > expected, the > > > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the > > proximate > > > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > > > > > With mettaa, > > > Brian Kelley 16378 From: Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. Hi all, Here is an essay by B. Bodhi on Subrahma's anxiety. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay37.html Larry 16379 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:16pm Subject: One Sure Way Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:04:48 -0700 From: "Michael Olds" Hello again, I actually think that directing my "responses" to someone other than the one with whom I find disagreement is something that falls into proper etiquette as practiced at the time of the Buddha. Many times we find that when some person has spoken in error, in stead of speaking to that person directly in responding, the Buddha will speak to Ananda. So, if you permit I would like to ask you, with regard to the following quote from the ekayana discussion: Q: "When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire 8-fold path is practiced?" A: "N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three abstinences arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold." How does this square with the fact that the fourth of the Satipatthanas, regarding things from the viewpoint of the Dhamma, culminates in regarding things from the viewpoint of the Four Truths (and in the case of the MahaSatipatthana, the Eightfold Path), and the Four Truths is identical with Samma Ditthi which includes, as it's fourth element, the Eightfold Path? Or, alternatively, if, as it is said here, only the five-fold or sixfold path is intended, how does this statement square with the fact that this too includes Samma Ditthi which includes the Four Truths which includes as it's fourth, the Eightfold path. Seeing this, one can see that even if one limits one's "Path" to the one step, Samma Ditthi, there is sufficient scope to that to take one to the goal. Again, from another angle, the Satipatthanas are not practiced in sequence, but describe a sequence of experiences that evolve into each other so that, for example, seeing that one's own body is of precisely the same nature as a decaying corpse, if it is, in fact seen that way, implies seeing sense experience (vedana), emotions (cita), and the Dhamma, and is at lease a small taste of Nibbana here and now. The way this business of a worldly path and a super-worldly path is being understood is off track. Taking just the Satipatthana, which is only one example, and granting that one who is just beginning, begins from the worldly path, following the Satipatthana to it's conclusion one arrives at The Four Truths which ends in the Magga, which ends with Samma Samadhi, which ends with Upekkha which, when seen as freedom and when freedom is seen as freedom (that is, when the situation has been made conscious), is a synonym for Nibbana. If a path leads to the goal, how can it be regarded as worldly? It cannot. It is only the attitude of individuals towards that path that can be distinguished as worldly or not. (Sariputta does not say: "There is a worldly path and an Unworldly Path"; he says "there is a taking on of the Path which is Worldly and there is a taking on of the Path which is unworldly," and he goes on to describe it as a matter of attitude.) If one approaches the dhamma, attaining step-by-step each of it's accomplishments, with the idea of gain (fame, power, status, etc.) then one has walked the worldly path; if at each level of progress one does not exalt the self or disparage others but simply evaluates the situation for what it is, seeing that there is more to be done and setting out for it's accomplishment, then one is walking the path of the Higher Dhamma. Some references: See: PTS: Middle Length Sayings, I: #19: Discourse on the Twofold Thought, pp.148 PTS: Greater Discourse on the (Ways of) undertaking Dhamma, I.372 and: Majjhima:114. Sevitabbasevitabba Sutta (Sevitabbaasevitabba), III.45 Middle Length Sayings: WP: To Be Cultivated and Not To Be Cultivated, 913 PTS: Discourse on what is to be Followed and what is not to be Followed, III.94 16380 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, Since you are focusing on Ven. U Silananda's tables in CMA, you would probably be interested in his corrections (reviewed by BB, but not yet included in CMA). See my message 15720 for details. I am curious as to why you would choose to start with rupa. I would have thought that rupas would come nearer the end; cittas and cetasikas are traditionally discussed first. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Glad to help. > > Sounds like an interesting project. Please tell me more about it. > > I teach a beginners class in Abhidhamma each Sunday morning in Kuala > Lumpur. You might want to download my class notes in the files > section of the DSG. This is work in progress and I update the on- > line version each month. I am currently working on Conditional > Relations. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 great > essentials, > > but I wanted to be certain. > > > > The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this > material, I am making > > what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of the > tables > > found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will > consist > > of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on ruupa -- > typing in > > all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things > together. The > > idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew > Olendzki. > > > > Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the > heart base; I > > probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! > > > > With metta and gratitude, > > Brian > > > > > > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same question > a > > > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of > heart > > > base). His reply was: > > > > > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 > great > > > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > > > > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > > > > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > > > > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > > > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > > > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were > the > > > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" > wrote: > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > > > I was hoping someone here could help me with a question I > have. > > > I'm > > > > working my way through Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive > > > Manual of > > > > Abhdhamma." In the section on ruupa, the part about > bhaavaruupa > > > goes: > > > > > > > > "Material phenomena of sex (bhaavaruupa) are the two faculties > of > > > femininity > > > > and masculinity. These faculties have, respectively, the > > > characteristic of the > > > > female sex and of the male sex. Their function is to show > > > femininity and > > > > masculinity. They are manifested as the reason for the mark, > sign, > > > work, and > > > > ways of the female and of the male; that is, for the sexual > > > structure of the body, > > > > for its feminine or masculine features, for the typical > feminine > > > or masculine > > > > occupations, and for the typical feminine or masculine > deportment." > > > > > > > > While it gives the characteristic, function, and manifestation > as > > > expected, the > > > > proximate cause of bhaavaruupa is not given. What would the > > > proximate > > > > cause of masculinity and femininity be? > > > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your assistance. > > > > > > > > With mettaa, > > > > Brian Kelley 16381 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Brian, --- Brian Kelley wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I've just joined this group at Howard's suggestion. ..... > I look forward to continuing in this group as I continue my first baby > steps in > studying the Abhidhamma. ..... I’m glad Howard encouraged you to share your Abhidhamma studies and interest with us and I hope you find it useful here on DSG. We’re all taking baby steps and falling over from time to time in the process;-). Just a couple of brief comments: ..... > Hi everyone, > > Just returned from a weeklong introduction to the Abhidhamma at the > Barre > Center for Buddhist Studies. It was a delightful week, filled with many > of > those very pleasurable moments of "Aha! Now I understand." > > We were blessed with two wonderful teachers. In the mornings and > afternoons, we delved into Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma," with Andrew Olendzki, a Pali scholar and the Director of > BCBS. ..... This sounds very worthwhile and I’m glad to see you continued interest in your other posts with Rob M. I’m glad to hear the week was so pleasurable too;-) ...... >In the evenings, we were taught by Sister Susila, a nun visiting > from a > monastery in Burma. She gave us another perspective on the material, and > 1.> taught us how, in her monastery, the Abhidhamma informs and guides their > > meditation practice. > Jack: Was there a practice component to the teachings? > Brian: Very much so, especially from Sister Susila. At the outset, we > were > told (by Andy Olendzki) that at Sister's monastery (Pa Auk Tawga, a > forest 2.> monastery in southern Burma) students don't even approach the > Abhidhamma until they have developed the jhanas in their meditation > practice. Very strong concentration is required so that one can begin to > > actually see these states as they arise. ...... I’ve given numbers above to two of the points. Hmmm, 1) makes much more sense to me than 2) which raises many questions about what jhana is, what meditation is and what Abhidhamma is. ..... > During the week, in addition to the classroom teachings, Sister also > gave > meditation instructions: one on how to use mindfulness of breathing > (after > which she described the process for developing access concentration and > the > jhanas), ..... Is it so simple, I wonder? ..... and another on the analysis of the four elements. In the > analysis of > the four elements, one moves one's attention systematically through the > body > and feels the sensations of each of the characteristics of the 4 > elements (12 > characteristics altogether.) For the earth element, one would feel: > hardness, > roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, and lightness. For water > element: flowing and cohesion. ...... Are you sure that water element can be experienced through the bodysense with attention (or without attention for that matter)? ..... For fire element: hot and cold. For air > element: supporting and pushing. (It was said that the analysis of the > four > elements can lead to access concentration, but not to jhana.) I enjoyed > doing > the four element meditation very much, but it can be very tiring to the > mind, > especially at first. ..... What is the purpose of this practice? If the mental states are pure or wholesome, can it be tiring? In any case, I’m very glad that you’ve come away with greater interest in the Abhidhamma and in understanding phenomena “with greater precision and finer detail”. I think this helps a lot. Slowly we can begin to see that abhidhamma is just what is experiencing and being experienced at this moment. It’s not what is in a textbook or a list, but that which can be directly known by right understanding as I'm sure you know too. Thank you for sharing and look forward to hearing more from you, Brian. Whereabouts in the States do you live, out of interest? Pls share anything else about your interest in the dhamma. Thanks too, Howard.......I’d be glad to hear your comments too;-) Sarah ====== 16382 From: Sarah Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cemetery Contemplations Dear Peter, Welcome to DSG too. --- Peter DaCosta wrote: > > Hi Christine > > For the practice of applying any Pali contemplation to daily life to > have any value, an open mind for the entire range of meaning is > important, so that what ever was appropriate for any situation could be > called upon, depending on the context of time and place. ..... You were responding to Christine’s comments on the use of terms such as ‘lust’ and ‘hate’ and I think your comments are very appropriate and helpful. ..... > For most people, in most situations, the extreme end of the scale would > be seldom if ever applicable, but in moment to moment awareness in the > general flow of everyday life, the most subtle interpretations are very > often the most useful. ..... Yes and perhaps what seems subtle now, will seem very gross with more understanding and awareness. I’m sure we can all think of examples of past deeds or thoughts that didn’t seem so bad at the time, but with more consideration now can appear as pretty gross. ..... > An experimental approach is probably the most useful. ...... Yes and one that acknowledges that our present perceptions are clouded with a lot of ignorance, I think. ...... > Cheers > Peter > > > peterd@p... ...... Hope you’ll also tell us a little more about your interest in the Teachings, Peter and where you live in the UK. (I come from Sussex, but have been living overseas for the last 20 years or so). Sarah ===== 16383 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Hi Larry, > Way 10: "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in > twenty-one places..." > > Hi Jim, > > I came up with another reading for this. It is different from the tika, > but since there are different readings of "ekayana" I don't see why > there couldn't be different readings of "in Arahatship". "in Arahatship" is 'arahatte' in Pali with the locative singular termination '-e' represented by the 'in' in the English and depending on the context other prepositions or prepositional phrases can be read such as the 'pertaining to' I chose in my earlier translation. Until we can determine the correct usage in the passage, a number of varied readings are possible. Note that the commentary itself gives five acceptable readings for ekaayano whereas none are given for arahatte but the subco. does give us some clue as to how it should be read. > I have it as "in Arahatship having set up the subject of meditation in > 21 places". "Places" meaning that the object of meditation is a place > where attention is focused, the breath for instance. "In Arahatship" > links to the idea that it is best to receive one's own particular > meditation object from an arahat. I rearranged the words a little but it > doesn't make that much difference; it's still an awkward construction. > We could just as well leave the order as Soma Thera has it. It's just > that this way of understanding "in Arahatship" makes more sense to me > than as an oblique reference to the 4 truths. Can you think of any > objections? Although I agree that an arahant is the best one to approach for receiving the meditation subject, I don't think "in Arahatship" is related to this idea. I have come across three passages in the commentary which I think will help us better understand the relevance of "in Arahatship". They are: At the very end of the commentary: "The Blessed One pointed out the teaching thus: "Bhikkhus, my Dispensation leads to Deliverance in this way," closed the instruction that is crowned with Arahantship in twenty-one places and uttered the following words: "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, [...] Jim: I take "crowned with Arahantship in twenty-one places" to mean that each of the 21 subjects of meditation is crowned with arahantship. Also near the end is found a list of the 21: "With this have been stated the following twenty-one subjects of meditation: Breathing, Modes of Deportments, the Method of the Thirty-two Parts of the Body, the Determination of the Four Modes of Materiality (or the Four Elements), the Nine Cemetery Contemplations, Contemplation of Feeling, Contemplation of Consciousness, the Laying Hold on the Hindrances, the Laying Hold on the Aggregates, the Laying Hold on the Sense-bases, the Laying Hold on the Enlightenment Factors, and the Laying Hold on the Truths. The Cemetery Contemplations are counted separately." At the end of The Section on Breathing: "In this section on breathing, the mindfulness which examines the respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. The non-occurrence of both is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the Truth of the Way. Thus having endeavored by way of the Four Truths, a person arrives at peace. This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing." And similarly at the end of each section for the remaining 20 subjects of meditation. This tells me that any one of the 21 meditation subjects is sufficient to lead one to the four noble truths and the attainment of arahantship but it's not so easy to know which is the best one to take up without the help of an enlightened one or someone well-advanced on the path. So perhaps instead of Soma's "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in twenty-one places...", "...having set up a subject of meditation for (attaining) Arahatship in twenty-one places..." would be clearer. > ps: which is best: arhat, arahat, arahant, or arahanta? In Theravada-related English writing 'arahant' is probably the best choice. arhat is the Skt form used in Mahayana writing. Best wishes, Jim 16384 From: jinavamsa Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:38pm Subject: 21 subjects Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 14, Comm. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is an essay by B. Bodhi on Subrahma's anxiety. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay37.html > > Larry > Dear Larry, > I have just read this and find it amazing. It's so beautifully written, so clear, so helpful. > thank you, > > Azita > 16386 From: Brian Kelley Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 6:52am Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, A friend sent me the corrections and I printed them out and took them with me to the course. So you were helping me even before we began discussing here. Thank you. I'm starting with the table for ruupa because that was what we began with at the course at BCBS (after the initial introduction and overview). I would have to ask my teacher why he chose to have us begin there. But it makes a certain amount of intuitive sense to me: to begin with the four primary elements, and build from there. With metta, Brian --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Since you are focusing on Ven. U Silananda's tables in CMA, you > would probably be interested in his corrections (reviewed by BB, but > not yet included in CMA). See my message 15720 for details. > > I am curious as to why you would choose to start with rupa. I would > have thought that rupas would come nearer the end; cittas and > cetasikas are traditionally discussed first. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > > Glad to help. > > > > Sounds like an interesting project. Please tell me more about it. > > > > I teach a beginners class in Abhidhamma each Sunday morning in > Kuala > > Lumpur. You might want to download my class notes in the files > > section of the DSG. This is work in progress and I update the on- > > line version each month. I am currently working on Conditional > > Relations. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > Thank you for your help with this. I suspected it was the 4 > great > > essentials, > > > but I wanted to be certain. > > > > > > The reason I ask is that, as I am attempting to learn this > > material, I am making > > > what I would describe as a hypertext "model" based on some of > the > > tables > > > found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." The model will > > consist > > > of several "modules," and I'm beginning with the module on > ruupa -- > > typing in > > > all the information, and cross-referencing and linking things > > together. The > > > idea for this came out of discussions with my teacher, Andrew > > Olendzki. > > > > > > Thanks for providing the answer about the primary cause of the > > heart base; I > > > probably would have been asking about that tomorrow! > > > > > > With metta and gratitude, > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > > By an amazing coincidence, I asked my teacher the same > question > > a > > > > couple of weeks ago (I also asked about the proximate cause of > > heart > > > > base). His reply was: > > > > > > > > 1)material phenomena of sex -feminine or masculine -is the 4 > > great > > > > elements (mahabhuta) of rupa. > > > > > > > > 2)material phenomana of heart is also mahabhuta. > > > > > > > > Refer Vibhavini- The book of analysis Page 421. > > > > > > > > I was asking this question as I was preparing a chart of all > > > > paramattha dhammas listing the characterisitic, function, > > > > manifestation and proximate cause for each one and there were > > the > > > > only "blanks". What made you ask this question? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" > > wrote: 16387 From: Brian Kelley Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Sarah, Thank you for the nice welcome. It's lovely to be here. You wrote: > > During the week, in addition to the classroom teachings, Sister also > > gave meditation instructions: one on how to use mindfulness of breathing > > (after which she described the process for developing access concentration and the jhanas), > ..... > Is it so simple, I wonder? I'm sorry if I gave the impression that it was simple. I was merely summarizing the information Sister Susila gave, rather than trying to recapitulate it all. No, it wasn't simple, far from it. > and another on the analysis of the four elements. In the > > analysis of > > the four elements, one moves one's attention systematically through the > > body > > and feels the sensations of each of the characteristics of the 4 > > elements (12 characteristics altogether.) For the earth element, one would feel:hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, and lightness. >>For water element: flowing and cohesion. > ...... > Are you sure that water element can be experienced through the bodysense > with attention (or without attention for that matter)? No, the water element is known through inference, not directly through touch. We were given a handout describing the 4 elements meditation, and this point was made explicit: "Note: The above ten characteristics are all known directly through the sense of touch, but the last two characteristics, flowing and cohesion, are known by inference based upon the other ten characteristics. That is a good reason to teach them last." > For fire element: hot and cold. For air > > element: supporting and pushing. (It was said that the analysis of the > > four > > elements can lead to access concentration, but not to jhana.) I enjoyed > > doing > > the four element meditation very much, but it can be very tiring to the > > mind, > > especially at first. > ..... > What is the purpose of this practice? If the mental states are pure or > wholesome, can it be tiring? > As to the purpose of this practice, I can only answer according to my quite limited understanding: 1) that the characteristics of the elements are to be known directly in the body, which leads to seeing just the elements and not a person or self, and 2) that this method can lead to the development of access concentration. As for its being tiring: this particular practice involved moving the attention throughout the body in a systematic way, from the top of the head down to the soles of the feet, then back up again. Moving the attention in this way can be fatiguing until one gets used to it. Also, it was near the end of the day, so that may have played a part. > In any case, I'm very glad that you've come away with greater interest in > the Abhidhamma and in understanding phenomena "with greater precision and > finer detail". I think this helps a lot. Slowly we can begin to see that > abhidhamma is just what is experiencing and being experienced at this > moment. It's not what is in a textbook or a list, but that which can be > directly known by right understanding as I'm sure you know too. Yes, exactly. Knowing realities as they occur. > Thank you for sharing and look forward to hearing more from you, Brian. > Whereabouts in the States do you live, out of interest? Pls share anything > else about your interest in the dhamma. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to introduce myself. My name is Brian Kelley. My wife, Gini, and I live in a rural area of northeastern New York state, in the foothills of the Adirondack mountains. Before this introduction to the Abhidhamma, my primary area of study has been the Sutta Pitaka. For the past few years, my meditation practice has focused on anapanasati and cultivating metta. I frequently attend retreats at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies in Barre, Massachusetts (about 3 and a half hours away from where we live). The focus at BCBS is to integrate scholarly understanding and meditative insight. Thanks so much for letting this yogi eavesdrop on your discussions. With metta, Brian 16388 From: Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Dear Jinavasam!, Jim, Larry, and all. I hope you guys don’t mind me butting in. I have not followed the whole thread. Please pardom me if I miss some of the relevant points. In abhidhammathahasangaha 21 objects of satipatthana 1) Breathing 2) Modes of deportment (7) 3) Clear comprehension (4) 4) Repulsiveness of the body (32) 5) Major dhatus (4) 6)-14) nine cemetery contemplation 15) Feelings (9 sections in here, all can be categorized into vedana cetasika) 16) Consciousness (16 sections in here, all can be categorized under citta) 17) Hindrances (5) 18) Aggregates (5) 19) Ayatanas (12) 20) Factors of enlightenment (7) 21) Truths (4) 1st-14th: kayanupassanasatipatthana 15th: vedananupassanasatipatthana 16th: cittanupassanasatipatthana 17th-21st: dhammanupassanasatipatthana This sutta was taught in a “nothing left-out” manner (nippadesa). All realities are listed here. I guess the word “place” was a translation of “thana”, the bases (objects) of sati. Anumodhana. Num >>><<< Also near the end is found a list of the 21: "With this have been stated the following twenty-one subjects of meditation: Breathing, Modes of Deportments, the Method of the Thirty-two Parts of the Body, the Determination of the Four Modes of Materiality (or the Four Elements), the Nine Cemetery Contemplations, Contemplation of Feeling, Contemplation of Consciousness, the Laying Hold on the Hindrances, the Laying Hold on the Aggregates, the Laying Hold on the Sense- bases, the Laying Hold on the Enlightenment Factors, and the Laying Hold on the Truths. The Cemetery Contemplations are counted separately." I am trying to see how this list could be taken to be a list of 21 subject of meditaiton. Obviously the second in the list (the Method of the 32 parts of the body) cannot be taken as indicating 32 subjects of meditation, for that would already be greater than 21. (My elementary math skills still being intact!) So perhaps that would count as one subject. If each item mentioned is counted as one subject, I count here 12, not counting the cemetary contemplations. Given the importance of order in Arabic-Indian numberals, 12 does not equal 21. Maybe there is something here simple and clear to come to the number 21 in considering this list. That would be welcome. >>><<< 16389 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:51am Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > I'm starting with the table for ruupa because that was what we began with at > the course at BCBS (after the initial introduction and overview). I would have > to ask my teacher why he chose to have us begin there. But it makes a > certain amount of intuitive sense to me: to begin with the four primary > elements, and build from there. Interesting concept, starting with rupas. Different strokes for different folks. If you are interested in rupas, Nina's book, "Rupas" is excellent: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html If you are interested in a concise summary, I have compressed Nina's book into 12 pages. It will be part of the next update of class notes in ten days time or if you want it sooner, please send me a note off-line at rob.moult@j... and I will reply with the attachment. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: the verse after Pitamalla. Hi Larry and all, as promised, here is the Pali of the verse in the Co : ``bhaasita.m buddhase.t.thassa, sabbalokaggavaadino. na tumhaakamida.m ruupa.m, ta.m jaheyyaatha bhikkhavo.. aniccaa vata sa"nkhaaraa, uppaadavayadhammino. uppajjitvaa nirujjhanti, tesa.m vuupasamo sukho''ti.. translation by Ven. Soma: The world of the Fully Awakened Man, the Chief, Holder of Right Views in all the world is this: Give up this form, disciples; it is not yours. Fleeting truly are component things, Ruled by laws of growth and decay; What is produced, to dissolution swings; Happy it is when things at rest do stay. N: the last sentence was strange: vuupasamo means calm or cessation. An attempt: after they have arisen they cease. Their cessation is happy. I would say: happiness. Maybe Jim would like to add? Rob Ed (Pali list) explained how not to translate verses, the text gets distorted when one tries to place the words in the same way as the Pali verse. Nina. 16391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn somporn Dear Rob K I was so happy with your post on A. Somporn and Lodewijk also appreciated it very much. How true that we cannot understand the texts unless there is also awareness and understanding of sabhava dhammas. And no fear of death! I have known him for many years. I hear his calm, reassuring voice when I read this post. He speaks slowly. He knows the whole Pali dictionary by heart, and can explain roots of a word at any given moment. He inspired me to go on with my Pali study. With appreciation, Nina op 20-10-2002 08:42 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma > when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've > listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how > long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) > is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. > I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest > in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was > fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been > a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed > looking 82 years old. > Robert 16392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Jon, I appreciate very much your reminders of the practice in this post. I just have one question about dhammanusati, recollection of dhamma as a subject of samatha. There cannot be satipatthana often, infact, it seldom arises for me. There can be pondering on the Dhamma with kusala citta, without direct awareness. However, aversion with tiredness or aversion because of finding the matter difficult is also bound to arise. Can it not happen (without trying) that there are moments of samatha? And then, this does not exclude that some moments of awareness can arise too in between. Nobody can choose anything. Samatha and satipatthana could alternately arise. Ven. Dhammadharo first brought it to my attention that studying Dhamma can be Dhammanupassana. When we reflect on it that thanks to the Buddha there can be a beginning of understanding realities, is that not samatha? The other day you reminded us that there should also be awareness of this reflection, and I appreciate this. Otherwise we are carried away by our pleasant feeling or happiness about our confidence in the Buddha, how easily can that happen. Maybe a good point to bring up when in Bgk. I just like to quote from a post by Rob K about samatha and insight: A good reminder not to have desire for the Recollections, as being so kusala. Nina. op 20-10-2002 10:49 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Hi again, Larry > > To my understanding, the term ‘dhammanpassana’ has a very specific > meaning: it refers to a moment of satipatthana (direct experience of the > true nature of a presently arising dhamma) only. It does not refer to > instances of thinking about dhamma or doing dhamma-related things. > > This is also true of the other 3 ‘anupassana-s’. They all refer to > moments of direct experience of dhammas; they differ only in that they > describe direct experience in relation to different kinds of dhammas > (however, this distinction need not overly concern us, since it is a > distinction made mainly for the purpose of explanation; the 4th > anupassana (dhammanupasana) in fact includes all objects of the other 3 > anupassana-s also). > >> ... but I doubt if you will find anything in the >> suttas or commentaries about email list groups or flying to Bangkok to >> listen to a lecture. > > Agreed, the various situations you mention here are not spelled out in the > sutta or commentaries. But enough situations are given in the sutta to > indicate that *any* situation is a situation in which satipatthana can > occur (e.g., … when he is going, standing, sitting, lying down, a bhikkhu > understands: 'I am going' etc; or just as his body is disposed so he > understands it). > >> ... In other words, the details and particulars of a> practice > needn't be spelled out in the commentaries in order to be >> legitimate. > > It seems to me that the details and particulars of the practice *are* > given in the sutta itself (contemplating body in body, feeling in feeling, > consciousness in consciousness, mental object in mental object). The > ‘what is’ is there, but not the ‘how to’. The reason for this, I suggest, > is that satipatthana is a matter of the *understanding of things as they > truly are*, and this is not something that can be reduced to a technique > of any kind. It does not mean that the 'how to' is a matter of whatever > anyone finds 'works' for them. 16393 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Larry, op 19-10-2002 22:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > Maybe I am getting stuck on the technical characteristics of panna. For > example, its proximate cause is concentration. N: a proximate cause arises together with the reality it is proximate cause for. There must be concentration arising with panna. It depends on the individual what degree. L: Sanna, vinnana, and panna > are all 'understanding'. Plus there are 12 different kinds of panna; > none of which I have investigated yet. N: these are different cetasikas, different functions. There are more then 12 kinds of panna, it can be classified in manifold ways. L: Plus I don't understand what is > included in individual essense (sabhava) and what isn't. N: sabhava: with its own nature or characteristic. Refers to ultimate reality. L: And really I > have yet to see the instruction to regard something as impermanent, > dukkha, anatta explicitly linked to mindfulness. And also under "How is > it [panna] developed" it doesn't explicitly say "satipatthana". So there > is a lot to investigate here. N: Agreed. The three characteristics can only be realized by panna of higher stages of insight, developed panna. How is it developed: by being directly aware of the sabhava dhamma appearing now. Do you have aversion because you find the material difficult? That is a sabhava dhamma. > L: I know 'satipatthana' is also a general term that includes anything in > the 8-fold path. N: The development of satipatthana is the same as the development of the mundane fivefold (sometimes sixfold) Path. When we go to the four Applications in detail it will be clearer that the objects of understanding are ultimate realities, not concepts. A. Sompong said to Rob K: patience. Let me repeat from a post by Sarah: ***** Nina. 16394 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ayatana re-revisit. Dear Num, thank you very much for all the details about ayatana. It is now clearer that the eyebase has not fallen away yet during the process. Just a question: Num: Let me try to put the information together: A.Sujin asked us to read from Vism > and > Vibhanga regarding the definitions of ayatana. Briefly from Vibhanga, Vism and > Abms: ayatana means 1) a dwelling place (nivasa, nissayapaccaya) for cittas > and > cetasikas, 2) a birthplace (sa~njati) for cittas and cetasikas, 3) bringing > along > (akara) 4) a meeting place (samosarana) for cittas, cetasikas, dvara, and > arammana, and 5) a root (hetu, karana). Nina: I find aakara, in English mine, or place of production a difficult term to understand. Maybe: if there is no physical base, no citta and cetasikas? 5: karana, translated as reason. Same idea. Num: > > The rest of the process (6th -17th) is the same. The visible object has arisen > and > has not yet fallen away during the whole process: rupayatana. The eye-base > (pasadarupa) is there at the same time and also has not fallen away through > out > the process. So the eyebase is still a paccaya for the process. Although the > eye- > base is a dvara for only seeing consciousness, but without the eye-base, the > adverting cannot arise to perform its functions and the rest of the cittas in > the > process cannot arise. Nina: Very good, eyebase still paccaya for the whole process. But, it is dvara not only for seeing, it is dvara for all the cittas of the eye-door process. That is what I understood. What do you think about this? With appreciation, Nina. 16395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTSM #5 and a Question. Dear Num, thank you for your answers, I will look at Vibhanga. nippadesa, can be translated as all-embracing. The Abh includes more realities in samudaya. Only the term: anuloma khanti. I also came across panna khanti , and I did not know how to translate this. Maybe A. Supee knows? Nina. op 19-10-2002 02:06 schreef sinsk@m... op sinsk@m...: > Num: The word “ayuhana” will be mentioned more in detail in PTSM under the > nanakatha section. I remembered Robert asked A.Sujin about this term couple > months ago. A.Supee also gave us his input. As far as I can remember (read > remember, not understand :) ). “Ayuhana” refers to the cetana cetasika > accompanied by samutaya. From the saccavibanga, suttantabhajaniya section, > samutaya refers solely to lobha cetasika (tanha). In the abhidhammabhajaniya, > which was explained in a “nothing left out style” (nippadesa-desana), samutaya > refers to 1) tanha 2) the rest of the kilesas (the 9 kilesas) 3) the rest of > akusaladhammas (all akusala cittas and their accompanied cetasikas) 4) the 3- > kusulamulas (alobha/adosa/panna), which can be an object of asava, and 5) the > rest of kusuladhamma (kusalacittas and their accompanied cetasikas), which can > be an object of asava. So, my understanding, “ayuhana”, as you said, refers to > the > cetana cetasika as a nanakhanika kamma paccaya, which can be either kusala or > akusala. ... > > Nina: Question: Is there a connection with khanti, patience, or does it have > another > meaning here? > Num: A.Supee said that here it means panna. A.Supee gave some references from > the suttas, which I cannot recall at this moment. 16396 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 8 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 8 We should reflect on the different kinds of efforts. If endeavour is only of a very slight degree, the conditions for the arising of the controlling faculty of sati are not sufficient. We read in the above-quoted sutta about the controlling faculty of sati: And from what point of view , monks, should the controlling faculty of mindfulness be regarded? From that of the four applications of mindfulness. Kusala citta cannot arise without sati cetasika, be it at the moment one performs dåna, or abstains from akusala. However, the characteristic of the controlling faculty of sati, the characteristic of its leadership, can be seen in the four applications of mindfulness (6. We read further on about the faculties of concentration and of paññå: And from what point of view should the controlling faculty of concentration be regarded? From that of the four stages of jhåna. And from what point of view should the controlling faculty of insight be regarded? It should be regarded from the point of view of the four noble Truths. Paññå which is insight knowledge and which knows the true nature of realities as it is developed stage by stage, is the indriya, faculty, of pañña. However it has only reached completion when it has realized the four noble Truths. In the past countless people listened to the Dhamma, developed paññå with right effort and realized the four noble Truths. They were wise people who knew how to remind themselves of the truth. We should consider whether we at the present time are like those wise people in the past. The ³Anumånasutta², ³Discourse on Measuring in Accordance with², (M I, 15), deals with the admonishing of monks and with self-examination. We read at the end of the Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní² : The teachers of old said that the monk should scrutinize himself three times daily. Thus, in the morning he should consider to what extent he still has defilements. If he sees that he still has defilements he should strive to get rid of them. If he sees that he has no defilements he knows that he has been leading the monk¹s life in the right way. During the day time and also in the evening he should examine himself again. If he cannot do this three times a day, he should do it twice a day , and if he cannot do that, he should examine himself only once a day. But it is improper not to examine oneself at all. By this passage we can be reminded to examine ourselves so that we know whether our actions were proper or improper. We can understand that we need viriya, effort, so that we are able to investigate our akusala and kusala three times a day, or else twice a day, or if that is not possible, only once a day. Then we are reminded by the teachers of old to examine ourselves as to the defilements we still have and to reflect on these. Footnote: 6. Sati of satipatthåna is mindful of nåma and rúpa which appear. The four Applications of Mindfulness, which are mindfulness of the Body, of Feeling, of Citta and of Dhammas, are actually all conditioned realities. They have been explained under the different aspects of the four Applications of Mindfulness. Sati of satipatthåna is sati of a level which is higher than sati of dåna or sati of síla, because when it is developed it leads to the eradication of defilements. 16397 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:48pm Subject: Practice on DSG Dear Group, I found the two posts about Roberts' meeting with Acharn Somporn very interesting, but I have a few questions about death and practice and hope someone may have the time and inclination to comment on them ... From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" "He said that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows itself by clinging to wrong practice. He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday life of a buddhist today would be defined? Question 2. Many people do not fear death, I don't. I would fear intense unrelievable pain (at any time) but also in the dying process. I do fear violence, but not death itself. Why would 'no fear of death' mean there is 'real understanding of sabhava dhamma'?. Many people welcome death after an illness, and many others choose death over continuing on in an unendurable existence - whether there is belief in any continuance or not. ------------------------ And from the second post "Meeting with Acharn somporn2" :"Avijja and tanha cannot understand dhamma but they can fool one into thinking there is understanding. If panna arises then there is no self doing anything but there is understanding of the moment". Question 3. How, then, can one ever know when there is right understanding ... If avijja and tanha can fool one into thinking there is. Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone? Everyone can quote a sutta or com. reference that seems to support completely different view points, a sort of "Duelling to the Death by Scripture Quotes". Question 4. The use of the word 'practice' or 'practise' is often confusing on this List. Different members seem to use the same word but not be referring to the same thing. Sometimes it is used as a noun as in 'the Practice'. This is never quite set out - one is pointed to the the Eight fold Path of practice, but the terms used here seem also to be invested with different meanings. Sometimes it is used as a verb 'when we practise' - though how can this be, when it is also said there is no-one who can 'choose' to do anything, no free-will, no-control, and when it is also said that sakkya-ditthi includes 'clinging to wrong practice.'? 5. Is formal sitting and walking meditation considered to include the idea 'a self' who because of 'lobha' for pleasant feeling is 'clinging to wrong practice'? i.e. sakkya-ditthi. Just thought it couldn't do any harm to ask ... :) Best wishes, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > I took the opportunity to practice my Thai and learn some Dhamma > when I had lunch with Acharn Somporn and T. A. Sujin today. I've > listened to Somporn in Thai but never spoken with him. He asked how > long I had been studying Abhidhamma and said that khanti (patience ) > is needed to really understand when I told him only 15years. He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava. > I asked about his life: he was a novice monk at 16 with an interest > in pali and Abhidhamma and was soon giving sermons. At 22 he was > fully ordained and then spent another 10 years as a monk. He has been > a friend of Sujins for almost 50 years and is now a very relaxed > looking 82 years old. > Robert 16398 From: Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "in Arahatship" Hi Jim, I agree, "crowned with arahantship in 21 places" must mean each of the subjects must lead to arahantship but I have heard many people say one must develop all 4 foundations. One can develop all 4 with anapanasati so the others must work the same way. I also agree this is a good bet on what "in Arahatship" means. Good work, thanks. Larry Way 10: "...having set up the subject of meditation, in Arahatship, in twenty-one places..." 16399 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. --- Dear Nina, Just one question , I don't have access to any pali texts right now. What is the pali for 'proximate cause"? with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > > op 19-10-2002 22:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > > Maybe I am getting stuck on the technical characteristics of panna. For > > example, its proximate cause is concentration. > N: a proximate cause arises together with the reality it is proximate cause > for. There must be concentration arising with panna. It depends on the >