16800 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:39am Subject: To Suan from Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear Suan Luzan Thank you for your comments on AN 4:190. As I mentioned in my letter to Sarah, I have been travelling and don?t have any Pali reference materials with me. I had earlier used the Sinhala script ed. of AN, which reads the problematic word as ?pilapanti?, and the PTS ed., which has ?pi lapanti?. I didn?t look at the Burmese edition (Be) or the commentary, and thus, after reading your letter, I see I was too hasty in my judgment. I have to retract my previous statement and admit that the Be reading now seems to me to make the best sense. The form ?plavanti? indicates Sanskritization, which made me discount the Be reading. But if we see this as derived from a more original Pali palavanti, the case is stronger. I thus have to revise the translation I offered Sarah. First, ?sukhino? can be either masc. gen. sg. or masc. nomin. plural. Since I had understood ?pilapanti? as a transitive verb requiring an active subject, I had taken ?sukhino? in the latter sense, as referring to the devas. But if we accept ?plavanti?, then ?sukhino? becomes genitive singular qualifying ?tassa? and referring to the being who has been reborn in the deva realm. Thus we should read: ?While he is happy there [enjoying himself there], the stanzas of Dhamma float up to him [rise up in consciousness], and though his memory arises slowly, he quickly attains distinction.? I still want to check the Sinhala script commentary, which I can do next week when I am in Sri Lanka. I find it puzzling that with the comy?s explanation, Se of AN would still read ?pilapanti?. My statement that the Burmese practice of normalizing difficult readings (which can be attested in various places in the Sixth Council edition) is ?fraught with danger? was too strong. I should modify this to say that it runs the risk of pushing older, more obscure but more original readings out of circulation. This doesn?t affect the substance of the Dhamma at all, but only matters of literary expression. But still, from the standpoint of fidelity to the text, it is of value to preserve readings that might be more archaic even when they are difficult and obscure. Let me again thank you for your comments. If I see anything in the Sinh comy that shows the passage in a different light, I?ll let you know, but not if it just confirms the Be comy reading. Sincerely yours, Bhikkhu Bodhi 16801 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: luminous, pure . Hi James, I view the Abhidhamma and the suttas as saying the same things two different ways; Suttas are lectures, Abhidhamma is a textbook. Some people (such as myself) learn better when the material is presented in a complete, structured way. Must be my engineering training :-). I agree with you that the Abhidhamma is not for everybody. Because of its structure, I find the Abhidhamma a much clearer way of learning the Dhamma than the Suttas. My gut feeling is that the Abhidhamma is a later addition (not words of the Buddha), so areas in which the Abhidhamma embelishes on the Suttas, I take with a grain of salt. However, I am not aware of any areas that the Abhidhamma contradicts the Suttas (if there are any contradictions, then I will almost certainly side with the Suttas). James, if you or any other DSGrs know of any contradictions, please advise. Kamma, dependent origination, metta and intuitive wisdom are all described in the Abhidhamma; however, from a technical analysis perspective. James, I would quote the sections, but since you are not interested in reading further, it won't make any difference :-). The Abhdhamma treats rupa as one of the five khandas that is analyzed to see that none of the components is self. I see this as quite consistent with the Suttas. James, if you are willing to give the Abhidhamma another chance (millions have found benefit in studying it for more than a thousand years, so there must be something in there), can I suggest that rather than starting with Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", that you start with Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" (available on-line at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html ). Nina's book is probably better for a beginner than Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. Stopping the study of the Abhdidhamma because it is not "your cup of tea" is perfectly legitimate. IMHO, stopping the study of the Abhidhamma because "the Abhidhamma is flawed" is not legitimate. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Robert and All, > > Wanting to learn about the Abhidhamma is what first brought me to > this group. As I have read more about it: its classifications, its > categorizations, its designations…I have completely stopped my > studies of it about one-third into it. When I realized that I was > going to have to start taking notes of my reading and create diagrams > of the concepts to remember them, I knew that it was time for me to > stop studying it. The Buddha said that his dhamma, when seen by the > wise, is put immediately into practice. So obviously it isn't > something that needs such intense study and memorization. Actually, > I wish that I could forget what I have garnered from my reading about > the Abhidhamma. thus far. Maybe time will help me to forget? > > This is going to sound radical, but I think it is a dangerous work > that hinders 'seeing things as they are'. Mostly I am going on > intuition and deduction for this evaluation, since I didn't finish my > studies of it and never intend to. I 'felt' that to go any farther > would, in the words of a Zen Master, "Put another head on top of the > one I already have." This may dismiss what I have to say, but it > shouldn't. > > I read this past exchange about the Abhidhamma and I must agree with > the overall objections you list: > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the sutta > pitaka, specifically it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas. > (It sure does. First, the principles of the Abhidhamma don't seem to > include the very important teachings of kamma, dependent co- > origination, metta, or intuitive wisdom. But its biggest fault, in > my estimation, is the assertion of 'Rupa', or matter, and how > knowledge of such will lead to insight. This goes contrary to what > the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught that it is from the mind that > we create our world and it is through control and taming of the mind > that we will find liberation. Knowing the various 'dhammas' of > matter have little to do with that. Basically, as the Buddha said, > it is all Nama. Anything other than that is purely speculative and > doesn't lead to liberation.) > > 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's > word. > (After studying it, I can see that it is very unlikely to be the > Buddha's word. The Buddha taught complicated subject matter using > metaphor and analogy. And often he would use a complicated phrase > with no explanation at all. There are three suttas where Ven. Ananda > had to explain some of the Buddha's key phrases to another monk > (Bodily Witness, Released Through Discernment, and Released[Both > Ways]) because the Buddha hadn't ever elaborated. Now, is it likely, > that they Buddha would elaborate on mind states, varying thoughts, > and varying states of matter like that found in the Abhidhamma? Not > too likely. He followed the philosophy that a 'handful of leaves' of > teachings is all one needs to know the whole forest of leaves. The > Abhidhamma is presenting a whole forest of leaves in order to > understand just a handful. It doesn't quite work that way around.) > > 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have said > they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition. > (From what I have read, it is a later addition. But this doesn't > really prove much or say much because the entire Tipitaka was written > after the Buddha's death. The only thing important is to consider > how close the writings are to what the Buddha actually taught.) > > 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the > sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who taught the > suttas. > (I mention this above.) > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm and > that sounds like a fairy story. > (This is a ridiculous assertion. This sounds as absurd as the Mormon > thinking of Jesus coming to North America after his crucifixion. A > deva realm is also a conditioned realm. The Buddha entered > Parinibbana, the unconditioned. How could he re-appear in a deva > realm to preach anything? And how could a teaching from a deva realm > be delivered to the human realm? Do they have an advanced postal > service? :-) This is a fairy tale type story and has to be a lie, if > not wishful thinking.) > > But, Robert, if you want to believe and study the Abhidhamma, I would > not discourage that. After all, we all are different. Maybe you > have the type of mind that won't be negatively influenced by > incongruous presentations of dhamma. But I don't think it is fair to > say that those who oppose it are showing disrespect to the dhamma. > > Metta, James 16802 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/9/02 6:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > By the way, Howard's concept of nibbaana seems to be a form of > bodiless jhaana comsciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life. Uddaka who taught Nevasaññaa > Naasaññaayatana Jhaana to the Siddhatta Gotama before the Buddha > discovered nibbana, now lives in the world of Nevasaññaa > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa, wasting his time trilliums of world years by > mistakenly believing the state of bodiless consciousness to be > nibbaana. Think about it, Howard. :) > > ========================== A couple comments in reply: I really have no firm concept of nibbana other than 1) it being the absence of suffering and the three poisons, and 2) it not being an absolute nothingness. Moreover the notion of nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham" is not "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, and the fact that to you it "seems to be a form of bodiless jhaana consciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life" certainly doesn't imply that this is what the Buddha had in mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16803 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 8:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Rob M, Thank you for replying to my e-mail so intelligently and so thoroughly. You do make a good case that gives me reason to pause. Are you getting some kinda kickback from a deva realm for your unwavering support? :-) It could very well be that the Abhidhamma is a technical way of approaching the dhamma. And for an engineer such as yourself, that may be very helpful and possibly even legitimize the dhamma as an intelligent system for knowing our universe which doesn’t rely on ‘faith’. But, for someone like me, as Winnie-the-Pooh said, “A bear of little brain.” study of the Abhidhamma may lead to the thinking that I ‘know’ what the arahants ‘know’, but I really don’t ‘know’ any such thing. I might just think that I do. That is why I said it is dangerous…at least to me. I don’t mind living with my ignorance of the universe and its workings for the moment. I accept that there are some things I don’t need to know because it doesn’t lead to happiness or nibbana. Okay, I might have spoken out too soon about the concepts of karma, dependent origination, metta and intuitive wisdom not being in the Abhidhamma. In the Buddha’s dhamma, they are spoken of immediately and frequently. I didn’t see them in the Abhidhamma given the same place or precedence. This could have been because that work is very technical and I missed it or didn‘t get there. Maybe because it seems to take a more ’observable phenomenon’ approach to dhamma, and those concepts are not directly observable. So, in that case, if the Buddha didn’t write it, I give my vote that Aristotle did! J/k However, I don’t agree that ’Rupa’, as presented in the Abhidhamma, is comparable to one of the five khandas (aggregates) as the Buddha taught. You wanted to know where the Abhidhamma contradicts the suttas, this is the area where I think it does. If not overtly, at least covertly. Okay, now I have to get a little technical. You should love it! :-) In the Khandha Sutta the Buddha taught that there are actually two categories of aggregates: the aggregates and the clinging-aggregates. The aggregates are: Form, Perception, Mental Fabrications (thoughts), and Consciousness. The Buddha described the two categories as thus: 'Plain' Aggregate: "Whatever (insert aggregate) is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of (insert aggregate). Clinging-Aggregate: Whatever (insert aggregate) -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called (insert aggregate) as a clinging-aggregate. The Abhidhamma doesn’t appear to make this distinction between the two categories of ’nama’ and ’rupa’ that the Buddha does, and this distinction is very important. The Abhidhamma seems to make the assertion that all namas and rupas are clingable (since they all have the characteristic of dukkha, they are all presumably clingable) , and the only aggregate that is un-clingable is nibbana (which the Buddha didn’t list as an aggregate) . Therefore the entire ’cosmology’ of the Abhidhamma is in contradition with the ’cosmology’ presented by the Buddha. Of course, I believe the Abhidhamma was written by someone who was not enlightened, so he/she didn’t see this important difference. Since everything to this writer is ’clinging’, he/she assumes that form, perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness are all naturally clingable. If the author had been enlightened like the Buddha, this assumption wouldn’t have been made. Personally, I don’t know the difference between these two categories because I am not enlightened. But I trust the Buddha that the distinction does exist. So, by omission, this is a contradiction within the Abhidhamma...and calls into question its entire philosophy. These are just my thoughts. I enjoy this discussion and appreciate the fact that neither of us have made it personal. Granted, there have been millions of people over thousands of years who have appreciated the Abhidhamma and believed it. But I don’t live by general statistics. This is just a discussion and just my thinking at this point in time. It may change and I am open-minded to the possibility I may be mistaken. Thank you for this opportunity to work out my thinking. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16804 From: James Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 8:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Oops...rereading this post, I realized that I left out 'feeling' as one of the five aggregates. I hope this was not a 'Freudian Slip!;-). Metta, James 16805 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 9:41am Subject: Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi --- Dear sarah, I think I speak for the whole group when I say how thrilled I am to see Ven. Bodhi replying to these difficult threads. It is a major boon to all of us on dsg. I hope he can contribute regularly/occasionally (of course only when he has time and inclination). I think there would be 99% of the group who use his translations. His essay on Paticcasamuppada in the introduction to the mahadinana sutta is a masterpiece and was very helpful when I wrote the series of letters earlier in the year. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Rahula, > > I couldn't reply earlier to your letter as I was travelling in East Asia. > I was in Hong Kong a few days ago and Sarah Abbott gave me a copy of the > long correspondence you had over her website about the translations > proposed by Shakya Aryanatta, which included his criticism of my > renderings of the Mara Suttas. I will comment on several of those, but let > me start with the one you asked me about. > > I also saw Nina van Gorkom's letter in response to yours, and think she 16806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, anupassanaa, contemplating Hi Larry, anu has several meanings: towards, after, along. Also, as I said: in conformity with (to practise dhammanudhamma: dhamma in conformity of dhamma). following after. Also: lesser, inferior, anudhamma: lesser morality. It all depends on the context. What do you think of: anugacchati: to go after, to follow: go after the characteristics? Anuvya~jana: details. secondary attributes (of the Buddha), or minor characteristics. This may be what you thought. But here in anupassana it must be something else. I lack knowledge, will ask the Pali list. Nina op 08-11-2002 02:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I thought the 'anu' that means > little or small was the 'anu' in anupassanaa and that it therefor meant > contemplation of details. But apparently this is wrong. 16807 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 11:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. > > > Hi Kom, > > Peaceful, fruitful, and straight. This is a good > way to understand > kusala. The reason I ask whether kusala is > paramattha is because every > religion and even every person has a different > idea of what is kusala. > All the wars in history were fought over > different interpretations of > kusala. But everyone agrees on what is red or > what is eye consciousness > or what is liking red. So how are we to discern kusala? > A kusala citta has at least the 19 sobhana cetasikas (and 6 others which only arise in sobhana states) which do not arise with akusala states. If one knows directly the characteristic of such sobhana state, then one knows that it is probably kusala. The more conventional observation may be that if a state has the quality of the opposite of any of the 25 sobhana cetasikas, then it can't be kusala. For example, righteous indignation about the Buddha's teachings, or defense of self by hurting others, can this be kusala? If the mind is agitated, it is non-peaceful. This is an opposite of Kaya-pasadhi and citta-pasadhi: this is most likely akusala. How about discussing dhammas to show off, or to feel better about oneself (as compared to others)? You can notice that the mental states are crooked (for doing one thing to achieve another purpose), an opposite of Kaya-passaddhi and citta-passaddhi, this is again akusala. Because of our ignorance that has been accumulated for aeons, it is impossible to make such distinctions in all cases, especially when it comes to attachment. The 2nd noble truth (cause of suffering: lobha) is truly deep and subtle (and so too, the other 3 noble truths). Even when it appears now, we still don't know what it really is (as cause of suffering). Worse yet, we sometimes take it as something else (take attachment as being mindfulness). Panna needs to be developed, since only panna can make such distinctions. The Buddha teaches about Sacca-dhamma: the dhamma that truly exists. Even without the Buddha, kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala. If akusala states are arising in ourselves, and others (or we) say it is good, the states are still akusala. If kusala states are arising in ourselves, and others say it is no good, the states are still kusala. Kusala/akusala states are not about situations or stories: they are about the qualities of the realities that are arising now. Dhamma is anatta because it has the characteristics that nobody can control... kom 16808 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati Thanks Christine, I can't read the zip but I have the book. I think we will be getting into bare attention soon in the commentary. Larry 16809 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, anupassanaa, contemplating Thanks, Nina, I'm beginning to see that the "small" meaning of "anu" would be a poor choice. If you find out anything new from the pali group, let us know. It's all interesting. Larry 16810 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Thanks Kom, I'm going to have to contemplate this for a while. Very good. Larry 16811 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:09am Subject: thinking Dear group, One area of experience that hasn't been addressed by the commentary, so far, is thinking. It occurred to me that perhaps "thinking" could be included in the "theorizing" category (see below). It doesn't take an arahant to see that we are all theorizing types, so maybe we should at least notice that thinking is impermanent. If we are even more cleaver we could notice that thinking isn't who we are. Larry ----------------- Way 18: [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. For the rejection of that zest of body, by the dull-witted [manda] man of the craving type [tanhacarita], the seeing [dassana] of the ugly [asubha] in the body, the coarse object [olarika arammana], which is the basis of craving [tanha vatthu], is convenient. To that type of man the contemplation on corporeality, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. For the abandoning of that zest, by the keen-witted [tikha] man of the craving type, the seeing of suffering in feeling, the subtle object [sukhuma arammana], which is the basis of craving, is convenient, and for him the contemplation on feeling, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. [T] For the dull-witted man of the theorizing type [ditthi carita] it is convenient to see consciousness [citta] in the fairly simple way it is set forth in this discourse, by way of impermanence [aniccata], and by way of such divisions as mind-with-lust [saragadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of permanence [nicca sañña] in regard to consciousness. Consciousness is a special condition [visesa karana] for the wrong view due to a basic belief in permanence [niccanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. The contemplation on consciousness, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity of this type of man. [T] For the keen-witted man of the theorizing type it is convenient to see mental objects or things [dhamma], according to the manifold way set forth in this discourse, by way of perception, sense-impression and so forth [nivaranadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of a soul [atta sañña] in regard to mental things. Mental things are special conditions for the wrong view due to a basic belief in a soul [attanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. For this type of man the contemplation on mental objects, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. 16812 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 0:23pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . James, Like RobM and the members of this List, I too see no contradiciton between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma. ButI understand a little of how you feel. I'm only a few years into Buddhism myself, and experienced fairly similar feelings a year or so ago. Just go slowly, and learn what comes easily, what you feel attracted to. Please don't feel you have to draw diagrams and memorise lists, or that you should master in a few days what the Buddha took aeons to understand. If you don't feel comfortable or drawn to much study, just stick with the Suttas. If you find theory disturbing, just be mindful of what arises at the sense doors for a while. Just relax and let be. Don't close your mind, all will be well. It is not a case of "either or" It can be "both" in whatever proportion is preferred. Dhamma is spiritual food, and like food some of it is very rich and may need to be taken in small portions at first, and like food we each have different preferences. No use getting indigestion. :) [May I also ask you honestly to consider another point? You are a very articulate and intelligent man. I don't know your academic history, but I feel you would have be a high achiever, and be used to having people come to you for explanations. Your knowledge of buddhism says to me that you have been practicing for years as well, and your practice is comfortable and familiar. James, in all of this, could there possibly be a tiny chance that, as this is a new and difficult area for you, a different way of understanding and practice, that there is some aversive reaction to being a relative beginner again with all the anxieties and exasperations that brings? Just ignore this para. if you feel it is incorrect or offensive.] A few of the many Sutta references (hope the links are current): http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/112-chabbisodhana-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 112 Chabbisodhana Sutta - The Six-Fold Examination http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/115-bahudhatuka-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 115 Bahudhatuka Sutta - The Many Kinds of Elements http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/140-dhatuvibhanga-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 140 Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta - The Exposition of the Properties http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/148-chachakka-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 148 Chachakka Sutta The Discourse of Six Sixes http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/149-mahasalayatanika-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 149 Mahaasa.laayatanika Sutta - The Longer Discourse on the six spheres http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-056.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.56 Parivatta Sutta - The (Fourfold) Round http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-057.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.57 - Seven Bases Samyutta Nikaya 'The Connected Discourses of the Buddha' beginning at page 627 Part III 14 Dhatu-samyutta (in The Book of Causation) beginning at page 853 Part III 22 Khandha-vagga The Book of the Aggregates beginning at page 1133 Part IV 35 Salayatana-vagga The Book of the Six Sense Bases ---------------------------- Some Visuddhimagga references: P.547 of Visuddhimagga 'The Path of Purification' XVm, 1 'Description of the Bases and Elements' P.552 of Visuddhimagga 'The Path of Purification' XV,17 ff 'Description of the Bases and Elements' P.649 of Visuddhimagga 'The Path of Purifiction' XVII, 203 [(v) The Sixfold Base] Nyanatiloka in his Buddhist Dictionary defines dhatu, ayatana and khandha as: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm dhátu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole. (I) The 4 physical elements (dhátu or mahá-bhúta), popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. (II) The 18 physical and mental elements that constitute the conditions or foundations of the process of perception. áyatana: . The 12 'bases' or 'sources' on which depend the mental processes, consist of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being the six personal (ajjhattika) bases; and the six objects, the so-called external (báhira) bases khandha: the 5 'groups (of existence)' or 'groups of clinging' (upádánakkhandha); alternative renderings: aggregates, categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, > > I view the Abhidhamma and the suttas as saying the same things two > different ways 16813 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 1:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Christine, Oh my goodness! *blush, blush* I don’t embarrass easily but this post sure did it! I feel like I had one of those dreams where I realize I am in public in just my underwear! Eeeekkk!! :-) The members of this group are so sweet it just amazes me sometimes. With all the posts filled with a Pali vocabulary so thick they seem like a foreign language, one would think that the members are rather cool and aloof. But that doesn’t appear to be the case at all. I have seen instance after instance of members jumping to reassure anyone who has doubt, frustration, or confusion about Buddhism…and without being superior about it. Okay, I will continue to plunge onward into the Abhidhamma, there must be something to it I am missing. I should give it a fair chance because I have witnessed the wisdom and compassion of those who embrace it I am also going to shop for an English-Pali dictionary today so that I can understand what most of you are talking about (I can sense that Kom‘s recent post is brilliant but I have no clue what most of it is saying! And the online Pali dictionaries I have used are rather unsatisfactory in depth and search capabilities). Hmmm…maybe I have been the big dog on the street for many years when it comes to Buddhism, and perhaps it is intimidating to be a young pup again. Additionally, you are correct, I have considerable education: 4 college degrees and I will begin a PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper :-) program probably after Christmas…I can't stop going to school! I am a professional student! I like what you write, “It is not a case of "either or" It can be "both" in whatever proportion is preferred.” This is always a good stance to take and one that I hardily accept. The Middle Way was what brought the Buddha to enlightenment. Okay Christine, your Buddhist intervention has worked. I will study more before I rush to begin a national, “Just Say No to the Abhidhamma!” campaign :-). Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16814 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 2:38pm Subject: Getting into Abhidhamma Hi James, I am really glad to see that you are not going to abandon Abhidhamma. I remember when I started attending weekly Abhidhamma classes five years ago; for the first six months, I left the class shaking my head thinking, "What did he talk about?". I wasn't used to that feeling and took it as a personal challenge to "learn the lingo" (BTW, an in-depth understanding of Pali is not required to appreciate the Abhidhamma, almost all of the Pali-related discussions on DSG are focused on Suttas, not Abhidhamma). Now the weekly class has been split into two and I teach the beginner's class. I am used to seeing people show up and leave with a blank look on their faces. Fortunately, most of them come back the following week. Now I take it as my personal challenge to share the beauty of the Abhidhamma without scaring anybody away. I strongly recommend that you use Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" as your initial basis of study and then you can move onto Bhikkhu Bodhi. I am looking forward to an extended discussion with you. I never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me and I suspect that I will learn a lot from you (and visa-versa) :-). Gotta go, need to prepare for my class which starts in a couple of hours. Metta, Rob M :-) 16815 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . James, Glad to hear you'll stick with it for a while - We like having you around. :) Theravada Buddhism has a high regard for: 1. Pariyatti - Learning the wording of the Doctrine, 2. Paripatti - Practicing it, and 3. Parivedha - Penetrating it and realising its Goal. I can remember feeling a little unsure when I first came to dsg - and even coming here took a bit of encouragement. :) One of the very first lessons I had to learn was to stop feeling apologetic for not knowing very much, and comparing myself to others in a negative way. Conceit in western terms is usually thought of as bragging about ones actual or imagined abilities. Someone kindly pointed out that Buddhism sees conceit as three-fold (equality, inferiority, and superiority) - mana, omana, and atimana. I was mortified for a day or so. But then decided that everyone here wished me well, and wanted the best for me spiritually - so, like you, I decided to soldier on. Pali dictionaries are an exciting adventure as well as oftentimes being an exercise in frustration. I obtained "Pali-English Dictionary" by T.W. Rhys Davids and William Stede. It was incomprehensible for days before I realised that a Pali dictionary follows a Pali alphabet entirely different in letter order to the English alphabet. This applies for first letters of a word and for each additional letter of that word. As well, I found a single long word can often really be about four words all joined together, there is a real skill in knowing where the (invisible) breaks are, and how to decipher all the different meanings and come up with a complete meaning - a skill I don't have. Nyanatiloka's on-line dictionary is one of the few that follow the english alphabet. Dhammastudygroup has a quick reference on-line 'glossary of Pali terms' that may be helpful for ordinary queries. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ The Yahoo Pali group have useful downloadable dictionaries and fonts (Pali often needs special fonts or comes out as gobbledy gook) in their Links and Files area. I'm not sure if you have to be a member, but if you do, it is well worth being a lurker there to explore and access their resources: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/links (click on the dictionaries folder) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Christine, <<<<>>>> Additionally, you are correct, I have > considerable education: 4 college degrees and I will > begin a PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper :-) program > probably after Christmas…I can't stop going to school! > I am a professional student! > > I like what you write, "It is not a case of "either > or" It can be "both" in whatever proportion is > preferred." This is always a good stance to take and > one that I hardily accept. The Middle Way was what > brought the Buddha to enlightenment. Okay Christine, > your Buddhist intervention has worked. I will study > more before I rush to begin a national, "Just Say No > to the Abhidhamma!" campaign :-). > > Metta, James 16816 From: James Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . Christine, You write, "Glad to hear you'll stick with it for a while - We like having you around. J" This is very sweet of you; btw I never said I was leaving this group. I would have to have my head examined to do such a stupid thing! I wish I had discovered this group long ago. It is very beneficial and worthwhile to all Buddhists. If monks could ever learn from laypeople, this group would be the place for that to happen. This group doesn't focus on just the Abhidhamma, there is study of all of the Tipitaka. Obviously, for Bhikkhu Bodhi of the Buddhist Publication Society to personally respond to the questions of members of this group, that does say a lot for its caliber (BTW, the BPS also very much enjoys my Buddhist writings. The chief publisher under Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Mettahivariti, described them in correspondence with me as `light, refreshing and unique', and reached an agreement with me to publish a book of them…in regards to my journey to become a monk. The book was going to be titled "Buddha True; Practical Buddhism and the Modern Monk" I didn't become a monk so that book proposal fell through…sent them photos of me, had half of the book written, etc...oh well. But I had other publishers interested in my writings alone, regardless of the monk angle, so I may publish a book one day of my Buddhist ideas/journey.) I just came back from Borders Books where I ordered the Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary. It will arrive in two to four weeks they told me. Is this a good dictionary? Is there anything I should know about it to facilitate my using it most effectively? Thanks again and I will try those sources for definitions you give until my new dictionary arrives. Metta, James 16817 From: James Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:06pm Subject: Re: Getting into Abhidhamma Rob M, Wow, you teach a class on the Abhidhamma! I am very impressed. Well, we will see where I go with it. I won't give up just yet. Thanks for the encouraging words and I look forward to much correspondence with you also as I try to tame this wild beast of the Tipitaka! :-) Metta, James 16818 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, James - In a message dated 11/9/02 7:05:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > just came back from Borders Books where I ordered the Pali Text > Society's Pali-English Dictionary. It will arrive in two to four > weeks they told me. Is this a good dictionary? Is there anything I > should know about it to facilitate my using it most effectively? > Thanks again and I will try those sources for definitions you give > until my new dictionary arrives. > > ============================ Until your book arrives, there is the online version (never as convenient) at the url http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html BTW, your evaluation of DSG as a great group is right on. It is an incredible source of Dhammic knowledge, it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not Abhidhamma-bound, it is wonderfully tolerant of alternative perspectives, and it is metta-ful!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16819 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, all - In a message dated 11/9/02 7:23:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not > Abhidhamma-bound, ======================== The double negative was just a typo, and not a Freudian slip! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16820 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > How about discussing dhammas to show off, or to > feel better > about oneself (as compared to others)? You can > notice that > the mental states are crooked (for doing one thing to > achieve another purpose), an opposite of > Kaya-passaddhi and > citta-passaddhi, this is again akusala. One mistake (at least) here. Opposite of kaya-ujukata and citta-ujukata. kom 16821 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Dear James, > -----Original Message----- > From: James Mitchell [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > doesn’t appear to be the case at all. I have seen > instance after instance of members jumping to reassure > anyone who has doubt, frustration, or confusion about > Buddhism…and without being superior about it. Okay, I > will continue to plunge onward into the Abhidhamma, > there must be something to it I am missing. I should > give it a fair chance because I have witnessed the > wisdom and compassion of those who embrace it I am I also think, in agreement with you, that there are many people in DSG with metta and compassion who are willing to help others better understand what the Buddha teaches. People don't agree on everything (as expected), but I do get that feeling that many share one goal: to truly understand the dhamma, and ultimately nibbana. In regard to Pali usage, thanks for the reminder not to be too liberal with the usage. Most of the Pali words I used (although frequently mispelled) recently can be found in Nina's Cetasikas at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/cetfinal.html There are also many other works full of pali, abhidhamma, and teachings of the Buddha at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html kom 16822 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Suan, Howard and everyone, I am reading here and there about Nibbana and consciousness. I was reading the Brahmanimantanika Sutta MN 49 (Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) How I got there was from note 1 of the Maha-punnama Sutta MN109 I'm stepping off the safe sandbank here into water over my head. Have mercy! :) May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness? verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." Note 1:MN109: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn109.html 1. One form of consciousness apparently does not come under the aggregate of consciousness. This is termed viññanam anidassanam -- consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms. Similarly, where SN XXII.97 says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > In a message dated 11/9/02 6:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: > > > > > By the way, Howard's concept of nibbaana seems to be a form of > > bodiless jhaana comsciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life. Uddaka who taught Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Jhaana to the Siddhatta Gotama before the Buddha > > discovered nibbana, now lives in the world of Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa, wasting his time trilliums of world years by > > mistakenly believing the state of bodiless consciousness to be > > nibbaana. Think about it, Howard. :) > > > > > ========================== > A couple comments in reply: I really have no firm concept of nibbana > other than 1) it being the absence of suffering and the three poisons, and 2) > it not being an absolute nothingness. Moreover the notion of > nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham" is not > "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, and the fact > that to you it "seems to be a form of bodiless jhaana consciousness very > similar to Nevasaññaa Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life" certainly doesn't imply > that this is what the Buddha had in mind. > > With metta, > Howard 16823 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 5:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi I second Robert's opinion about this being a boon. I very much enjoy reading his translations, sometimes, over the Thai translations that I have. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:41 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi > > > --- > Dear sarah, > I think I speak for the whole group when I say > how thrilled I am to > see Ven. Bodhi replying to these difficult > threads. It is a major > boon to all of us on dsg. > I hope he can contribute regularly/occasionally > (of course only when > he has time and inclination). I think there would > be 99% of the group > who use his translations. His essay on > Paticcasamuppada in the > introduction to the mahadinana sutta is a > masterpiece and was very > helpful when I wrote the series of letters > earlier in the year. > Robert 16824 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Meeting with A. Sujin Dear group, I met with Sujin yesrday and consider the discussion excellent. Num, Sukin and myself asked a few questions but almost all of it was with A. Sujin talking. Much about carita (temperments) in the satipathana sutta . She pointed out a refernce in the Netti-pakorn where there are 19 temperaments or even more. Pieces about stages of vipssana. About choosing objects . (Choosing is not the way - but one will realise , naturally, that he has accumulations for one object over another. because this apears to panna more frequently. Eventually all objects must be known). For those with some pali knowledge the tapes may be worth having. robert 16825 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:25pm Subject: to Mom Bongkojpriya ... sawadee ka! Dear Mom Bongkojpriya, Sawadee ka ! I was really happy that you replied because i didnt really expect anyone to reply so thankyou so much. Marisa Chearavanont is my mothers name , she is Korean so i dont think its her and my thai name is Tanyatip Chearavanont , my engilsh name is Jan. About Mr. Walsh-till(thats the correct spelling,i made a mistake on my other e-mail.) he went to year 7 camp(that's my grade) the day before he was reported missing. :'( I also agree the beauty of buddhism. Every night I pray to the buddha and I got so used to doing that, If I dont i wont be able to sleep or the next day i would forget somthing or get in trouble by my teachers(THIS IS VERY TRUE!!!) I always wanted to ask an American this, are you a buddhist or a Christian? Well I really hope you will reply soon Love Jan Tanyatip Chearavanont 16826 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:57am Subject: a letter form Charles Bleach Dear Jan, I don't know much about Buddhism.What was your poem? I cant really say anything because I'm only 8 years old. I almost forgot my name is Charles. I come from Hong Kong. I like playing football, swimming and gym. I like animals such as eagle's, rabbits, rats, pigeon's and hawks and I like race cars. I understood everything in the letters about Buddhism. I think we never really die we just get reborn as a human if we are good, if your very good you get reborn as a god, if your nice you get reborn as an animal, if your bad you get reborn as an insect. My parents are very nice people. My father is a barrister, he likes painting with me. My mother is the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U) and they just divorced. My nationality is half English a quarter French and a quarter of Vietnamese. From Charles P.S : Jan helped me type this up. 16827 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 3:06am Subject: with bated breath - escribe Hi all, Escribe has been working with no problems for the last 24 hours, so maybe it’s a little less impermanent than feared;-) Besides the search functions, I also find it useful for a quick glance of the posts http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Sarah ===== 16828 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard Sorry to have been the cause of your confusion ;-)). Let me try to explain. I think we agree that there is such a thing as awareness of the presently arising phenomena without choosing or limiting the object, but we disagree as to how that may occur. I'm saying that can only occurs if there is no directed attention or deliberate training, because whenever these are present there must be, however subtly, a limiting or choosing of the object. Also, I was trying to make the point that practice that is not right practice from the beginning can never somehow 'become' right practice further down the track, which is something I found to be implicit in the proposition that 'at less developed levels of understanding there must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops away' (my précis of your position). You may not agree, but I hope at least I have managed to 'undo' the confusion ;-)) Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 10/27/02 4:04:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Howard > > > > If I understand you correctly, Howard, you are saying > > that at less developed levels of understanding there > > must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at > > more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops > > away. > > > > I know this is a common perception among those who > > follow a ‘directed attention’ strategy, but I believe > > it may be a questionable approach. If > > ‘limiting/choosing’ the object is not what the Buddha > > in fact taught, then this practice could never lead to > > right understanding. > > > > I do believe it’s possible from the beginning for > > there to be awareness that arises without any limiting > > or choosing of the object of awareness. > > > > Jon > > > ========================= > Jon, what you say here confuses me. It seems to be the exact > > *opposite* of what you wrote below. And you seem to be interpreting > what I am > saying as the exact opposite of what I mean as well. You said the > following: > > *********************** > Howard > > In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': > < "getting > lost".>> > > “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending toâ€?. But if > you think about > it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something without a clear > idea of what > the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it “whatever > arisesâ€?, there has to > be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in > effect, it > seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment > of > directed attention. > > Jon > ********************************* > > In fact, it was exactly my point that it *is* possible to be > aware of > simply whatever arises, without preselection or limi > tation. My point was that it is possible by means of a trained > readiness of > mind and attention to be mindful and clearly comprehending of > whatever should > happen to arise at any moment. However, it is more difficult for > the > untrained mind to do this than the trained mind. That's all. > > With metta, > Howard > 16829 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" WL As another equally perplexed being, let me say I appreciate your bringing this subject up. I think it's a very important area to consider and discuss. Without a clear idea of what a moment of awareness or understanding is supposed to be like, we are likely either to not recognise it when it arises (being so weak and indistinct) or to take some other 'experience' as being awareness and understanding. Actually, the same point could be made about any of the other mental factors, especially the wholesome ones. Without a detailed theoretical knowledge of what they are and how they function it is too easy to take something that is in fact unwholesome for being wholesome. The function of awareness (sati) is to experience directly one of the basic phenomena (dhammas) that make up the present moment. These include such 'mundane' phenomena as seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, thinking and feeling. When awareness arises it will have one of these phenomena as it object, in other words, of one of these phenomena will be experienced directly in a way that is not normally the case. If insight (panna) arises, it sees the true nature of the same object. So to answer your question, I think we need to know as much about insight as possible (what it is, how it functions, what can be its object), consider what the Buddha said about its development and reflect at length on how what we have learnt applies to the present moment. This is not an easy subject, I find. I'm sure you must have given it some thought yourself, and I would very much like to hear your views on it. Jon PS I enjoyed reading your recent exchange with James. --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > Hi, > I've been following this thread because I was hoping it may > provide me some answers to a question that has been > bothering me. But thus far, perhaps due to my ignorance, > I have not found the answers yet. > > My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? > How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere > intellectural understanding of something, since we are so heavily > influenced by what we've been taught, by school, by religion, and > heck, by Buddhism? There are times while I'm contemplating > about things, all of sudden, bang, something becomes clear to me. > I'm sure everyone experiences that. Does that constitute as an > insight or was it merely intellectural understanding or was it > merely > a concept construed by my mind with so much conviction that I > actually thought it was insight? I've found learning and knowledge > > is my best friend and biggest enemy on my journey for seeking for > truth. If anyone can shed some light on this, would appreciate > it. > > A very perplexed being, > WL > 16830 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:19am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine You asked: "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness?" verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." Where did you get verse 25? I could not find it in MN49 and MN109. Before I explain verse 25, I need to read it in the original Pali. According to Udaana description of nibbana, there is no eternal consciousness. To my knowledge, there is no other type of consciousness outside the consciousness aggrtegate in the five aggregates. You also asked: "what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness?" That note is merely Sayadaw Thannisaro's personal speculation (attanomati). It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts. The very fact that he felt the need to write that note showed that he himslef must have found it surprising or unbelievable in the first place. Otherwise, he would not have gone out of his way to write that note. Please kindly read, ponder and stick to the Buddha's own unmistakable definition of nibbaana in Udaana. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 16831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] subco bhikkhu Hi Larry, He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. The etc. is for dosa and moha: thus, all defilements. That is true calm. This is not about samatha with the foulness as meditation subject. Restraint of the faculties: no more defilements on account of what is experienced through the six doors. The four Pthas; the stages of enlightenment, he is arahat. Nina op 09-11-2002 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for these notes. They are particularly helpful in understanding > the relationship between seeing the foulness of the body and developing > tranquility. > > "N:... He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. He is > tamed by the restraint of the faculties. He is assured by way of the > four Paths." Weight Age Gender Female Male 16832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. A tooth. Dear Larry and Kom, op 07-11-2002 08:29 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > The Kayanupassana Sattipatthana section does mention many > body parts (still concepts) as objects of the conciousness. > When we talk about the rupas in the 18 elements, the > kandhas, the ayatanas, they are all paramatha dhammas, > however. There are two sorts of breaking down the wholes > (that I see): > 1) Breaking a body into its body parts (the 32 body parts) > 2) Breaking what we see as a whole into the only existence > that can be proven to exist. > > For 1, we can truly see what we take as beautiful body isn't > so beautiful: if this is seen with kusala states, it calms > the mind, and can be an object of samatha development. For > 2, we can truly see what we take as a whole, as a self > (either this self or other selves) are nothing but elements, > kandhas, ayatanas, and can be an object of vipassana (and > samatha) development. > >> The phrase "contemplate the body in the body" is >> said in order to >> isolate body from feeling, citta, and dhamma. So >> the contemplation of >> the elements of rupa here must be different from >> contemplating rupa as a >> khandha in dhammanupassana. Any thoughts on this? Nina: teeth, part of the body. A good reminder, also when not developing a high degree of samatha. What is really there? Mostly we do not notice teeth (unless they ache) but now we are reminded that they are just a body part. A characteristic may appear (when the tongue happens to touch a tooth, but there is thinking also). It can be the element of hardness, only a rupa. We do not have to think of khandha. Larry: So >> the contemplation of >> the elements of rupa here must be different from >> contemplating rupa as a >> khandha in dhammanupassana. N: I take contemplation to be direct awareness, no thinking about which of the four contemplations it must be. Nina. 16833 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . > Until your book arrives, there is the online version (never as > convenient) at the url http://ds al.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Howard, Thanks for giving me this link; that was very thoughtful of you. Actually, I have been using this online dictionary and have had so many problems with it I was hesitant to buy their print dictionary. The main problem with that online dictionary is that when you conduct a search for a word, they don't give a list of approximate words when that search is done. And many of the posts here, not just Kom's, have misspelled Pali words/terms in them, or incomplete words. Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out more times than I care to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali words and each of them are essential for understanding the sentence. I go to the online dictionary, which means I must open another window and jump back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the first word. However, I can't find the meaning of the second word. It tells me it doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words to choose from. I look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that by context clues I will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get the meaning of that word. However, the missing word makes all of the difference and I still don't understand the sentence. I have spent at least 15 minutes trying to find out the meaning of one sentence, end up fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is FILLED with even more Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. Whew! It is a true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that I needed a print dictionary to understand these posts. I will keep reading the posts though, and may respond to any which I can understand. Believe it or not, some posts speak to me in a certain way, even when I don't cognitively understand what is written; I can tell that they have said something important. That is why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a dictionary of a thousands-of- years-old dead language. (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I told him, 'The Internet' :-) Metta, James 16834 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, James - In a message dated 11/10/02 11:43:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I > told him, 'The Internet' :-) > ===================== ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16835 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma Dear James I join Christine in what she writes to you, she expressed it very well. Recently I heard A. Sujin say on a tape: Abhidhamma is seeing now, do not think it is just in the book. We should not consider the Abhidhamma as theory at all. It is about the practice: understanding of what appears through the six doors, now. I agree with what Christine says about not forcing any study. Don't feel unconfortable if you do dislike abh, and do not force outselves to take up my book :-) :-) B.T.W. I think you write admirably to kids. Are you a teacher? As to the dictionary: I wrote out on a front page all the letters in Pali alphabeth order, and after those letters the relevant page numbers. I also have a small dictionary: by Buddhadatta, for quick references. Nina. op 09-11-2002 21:23 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v... > > Like RobM and the members of this List, I too see no contradiciton > between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma. ButI understand a little of > how you feel. If you find theory disturbing, just be > mindful of what arises at the sense doors for a while. 16836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: typo. Howard, you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) op 10-11-2002 01:44 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > In a message dated 11/9/02 7:23:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > >> it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not >> Abhidhamma-bound, > ======================== > The double negative was just a typo, and not a Freudian slip! ;-)) > > 16837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine and Suan Jim explained before that in this case vi~n~naa.na does not mean citta, but: what should be understood. ~naa.na is understanding. This is applicable to nibbana. Since people do not realize this, they become confused and believe that nibbana must be a certain type of consciousness. Nina op 10-11-2002 15:19 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon > about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal > consciousness?" 16838 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 1:25pm Subject: Re: abhidhamma Nina, Thank you for writing. Can I ask you something? Can I have your autograph? :-) I must admit I have been reading your book, the peer- pressure has been too great to resist! :-) But I see that the pressure is for good reason, it is an excellent book. Your writing doesn't have a lot of the 'filler' analysis most Buddhist works have, so it requires that I think for myself most of the time. Hmmm…yea, I guess I do need your autograph, on my lawsuit against you for my mental pain and suffering! LOL! Just kidding. It will take me some time to turn the theory into natural practice as you say, but perhaps I will get there. Thank you for the encouraging words. Thank you for the compliment about my letters to the kids. Yes I am a teacher. It really isn't a big secret as to how to communicate with kids. Kids are starting life new; what do you do for anyone who is starting something new? Well, the same things the members of this group have done for me in regards to my new Abhidhamma studies: Encourage, reassure, focus on the positive, point out successes, don't dismiss doubt, give specific advice, have a sense of humor, and express love and caring. I guess I am a kid at heart too (and my last name is Mitchell, as in Dennis Mitchell AKA Dennis the Menace..hmmmm... ;-)…. Metta, James Ps. I agree with you, Christine Rocks!! 16839 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: typo. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/10/02 3:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Howard, > you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) > > ====================== Hmm! A slipping, unmanifestive!! ;-)) - Howard "One can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll Vi~n~nanam means whatever I define it to mean - Lewis Carroll (or somebody! ;-) ======================= I do apologize. I just couldn't resist! (Mara made me do it! ;-)) With manic metta, Howard P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows the importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16840 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Way 23, Comm "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on "lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent... " And here, by the passage: "For the determining of the object by isolating it, and for the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact nature of things like continuity," this too should be understood: This person contemplates in this body only the body; he does not contemplate anything else. What does this mean? In this definitely transient, suffering, soulless body, that is unlovely, he does not see permanence, pleasure, a soul, nor beauty, after the manner of those animals which see water in a mirage. Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Because there is no contemplating of the body with reference to a self or to anything belonging to a self, owing to the contemplating even of collections of things like the hair of the head, there is the character of contemplating, in the body, the body which is a collection of things like the hair of the head. The meaning should be understood thus too: "contemplating the body in the body" is the seeing of the body as a group of all qualities beginning with impermanence, step by step, as taught in the passage of the Patisambhida which begins with: "In this body he contemplates according to impermanence and not permanence." The bhikkhu sees the body in the body, (1) as something impermanent; (2) as something subject to suffering; (3) as something that is soulless; (4) by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; (5) by freeing himself of passion for it; (6) with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; (7) and not by way of laying hold of it, but by way of giving it up. Viharati = "Lives." Atapi = "Ardent". What burns the defilement of the three planes of becoming is ardour. Ardour is a name for energy. [Tika] Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. As "ardour" [atapa], like "glow" [atappa], is restricted by use to just energy generally, it is said: "ardour is a name for energy." Or because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa]. In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by "atapa". By taking the word ardent [atapi] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. 16841 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 23, Comm Way 23: Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Hi all, Looks like contemplation of the body in the body isolates the body as object from the objects 'feeling', 'consciousness', and 'dhamma' but includes the characteristics of unloveliness, suffering, transiency and soullessness. As for the ardor of right effort there is this from A. IV, 13 in Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": "The monk rouses his will to *avoid* the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to *overcome* them ... to *develop* wholesome things not yet arisen ... to *maintain* them, and not let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives." See also Nina's Perfection of Energy in the archives. Larry 16842 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi again, Nina (and all) - I just re-read the following attempt at humor by me, and, to my dismay, I can see that it might easily be considered offensive. That was far from my intention. (In fact, I intended it to be open to alternative readings one of which makes fun of myself.) Please excuse me for not being more careful. I do apologize if I caused any offense by this. I wouldn't want to offend even those whom I think little of, let alone you folks whom I value so highly! With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/10/02 6:08:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 11/10/02 3:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > >Howard, > >you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) > > > > > ====================== > Hmm! A slipping, unmanifestive!! ;-)) - Howard > > "One can't believe impossible things." > "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your > > age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed > as > many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll > > Vi~n~nanam means whatever I define it to mean - Lewis Carroll (or somebody! > > ;-) > ======================= > I do apologize. I just couldn't resist! (Mara made me do it! ;-)) > > With manic metta, > Howard > > P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows > the > importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, > any road will get you there." ;-)) > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16843 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Howard, Offensive? Huh? I thought your post was really thought provoking. Lewis Carrol is one of my favorite authors because of his ability to show the absurdity of holding onto the meanings of words, ideas, or beliefs too tightly. He purposefully shakes up the reader so that what was once taken for granted won't be taken for granted any longer. Very Buddhist Detachment and very Zen. I appreciated your post for its deeper meaning and humor. I don't think you were offending anyone, you were just pointing out that things aren't always what they seem…especially words. Often times I am just plain silly, but you were silly with a higher purpose. I hope that you continue to occasionally rattle all of our cages of assumed reality. Metta, James 16844 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 9:25pm Subject: Re: Way 23, Comm --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. As "ardour" [atapa], like "glow" [atappa], is restricted by use to just energy generally, it is said: "ardour is a name for energy." Or because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa]. In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by "atapa". By taking the word ardent [atapi] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. Hi All, It is funny that I read this tonight because it touches on something I was thinking about. Tonight I am having one of those nights, I am not sure if others have these times or not, when I am naturally reflective, naturally peaceful, and naturally meditative. I was driving back home from seeing a movie, and I spontaneously became aware of my breathing through my nose. I felt every breath and felt calm seep through my body like water through a sponge. I came home and I immediately wanted to meditate and felt that my mind was very alert. And, though not Buddhist detachment, I kept thinking to myself, "What in the heck did I do differently tonight? I really appreciate this state-of-mind and would like to be able to repeat it at will. Why can't I be like this all of the time? Or at least most of the time?" In reading the suttas, I know that the Buddha encouraged his monks to cultivate this `mental attitude' using the methods listed above. So obviously, the Buddha knew that such a state doesn't arise naturally that often and it must be worked on. However, I have found that the natural states are about 80% better in quality and benefit than those states that are forced naturally. For example, I can set up a schedule for meditation everyday at a certain time and for a certain length. Often times, following this schedule is not easy or fun. Of course, when the meditation is over, I am thankful that I did it; but I don't approach it usually as something I really want to do. However, when I have one of the states like I have tonight, I can hardly wait to meditate. I almost felt like pulling my car off the road and meditating for a while or so. And the resulting meditation tonight was more reflective, calm and inspiring than that I have forced. I guess what I am thinking about is to how to generate that natural enthusiasm for meditation artificially? Is that even possible or is that an oxymoron? And those meditators who say that it doesn't matter the reason for doing it, it should just be done…are not being completely honest. It does matter or the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged his monks to cultivate the desire to meditate. I have searched for many years to find the secret to how to use the artificial to create a natural, or close to natural, enthusiasm about meditation and I have yet to find that secret. Honestly, guilt about not meditating has been the most effective motivator for me to do it lately. And this doesn't always work so I don't meditate as often as I should, or as often as I did when I first began meditation. I guess the love affair is over. How can I put some 'Spice' back into my relationship with meditation? Hmmm…sounds like an article for a 'Buddhist Galmour' magazine! :-) Just my thoughts. If anyone has specific advice or techniques that have worked for you, I would welcome input. Metta, James 16845 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: (BTW, > the BPS also very much enjoys my Buddhist writings. The chief > publisher under Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Mettahivariti, described them in > correspondence with me as `light, refreshing and unique', and reached > an agreement with me to publish a book of them…in regards to my > journey to become a monk. The book was going to be titled "Buddha > True; Practical Buddhism and the Modern Monk" I didn't become a monk > so that book proposal fell through…sent them photos of me, had half > of the book written, etc...oh well. But I had other publishers > interested in my writings alone, regardless of the monk angle, so I > may publish a book one day of my Buddhist ideas/journey.) Hey All, I wasn't sure if I would mention this or not, but with Howard's recent public apology I guess it is okay to present a public apology of my own. I was reading some of my posts to my boyfriend, and he was very displeased about this particular post above. He said that I sound like I am bragging or something to go on and on about my past with writing a book. I told him that I just mentioned it off-hand because it seemed to fit the current discussion and I was reminded of it. He said I should have just mentioned it then and not gone into such depth; and I probably meant to subconsciously in order to 'show off'. He told me that to do so demonstrates that I have a definite issue with `Pride' and that is against Buddhism. Darn it, I hate it when he is so right! (I guess it is my karma to be moderated everywhere until I get it!) :-) I apologize to everyone for my obvious display of pride and conceit in this post. I will try to keep my posts to pure dharma and not my personal life…though that is very difficult for me. I cannot seem to separate my life from dharma or dharma from my life. And I honestly don't think people should. But I don't have to blab about myself all the time in these posts. Sorry again. Metta, James 16846 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Dear James, --- James wrote: > > Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out more times than I care > to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali words and each of > them are essential for understanding the sentence. I go to the > online dictionary, which means I must open another window and jump > back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the first word. > However, I can't find the meaning of the second word. It tells me it > doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words to choose from. I > look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that by context clues I > will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get the meaning of > that word. However, the missing word makes all of the difference and > I still don't understand the sentence. I have spent at least 15 > minutes trying to find out the meaning of one sentence, end up > fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is FILLED with even more > Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. Whew! It is a > true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that I needed a print > dictionary to understand these posts. ..... ;-) It’s hard not to smile about your frustrating experience. James, I really admire the diligence and the trouble you go to. A few more tips, in the hope that at least one will be of some use. (Just as we all now see Howard as our ‘model’ meditator, for this exercise I’m thinking of Kom as our ‘model’ abhidhamma writer -thanks, Kom-;-)) 1. If you’re new to the list and new to the Pali terms - relax. it takes time to ‘tune in’. For the Star Kids, I select the appropriate posts or just those written to them. We all have to do a little selection of what we are ready to hear as well. 2. Posts are usually written in the language appropriate for the ‘named’ recipient. When you write to the Star Kids, you use simple language that they'll find helpful. So if Kom is writing to Larry, he knows Larry will mostly be able to follow the Pali terms used, having discussed the entire ADL in detail already.These terms often/usually convey the meaning more precisely. (If Kom and Num are speaking together, then really watch out - you may need a ThaiPali dict;-)) 3. Print out the Pali-English glossary Christine mentioned from the Files section and keep it next to your computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ You will find that about 80% of the terms Kom and most of us use are contained in this list. (I don’t quite guarantee that rate for Rahula’s, Suan’s or Num’s posts which have me pulling out dictionaries too;-)) 4. If it’s a topic of special interest and you suspect some brilliance, ask Kom or the poster to explain further. Just as a kid in class who raises a hand to say “I don’t understand’ does the rest of the class a big favour, so will you. There will always be plenty of other lurkers quietly thanking you for this. 5. Use escribe to check back on a thread which may have started weeks, months or years ago, such as a couple B.Bodhi responded to. The dictionaries won’t be very helpful, but some past posts may be. For example, BB’s post to Suan is on the use of ‘pilapanti’ as used in the Satipatthana Sutta. Key this word into the search on escribe (while it’s up and running) and you’ll find it neatly shows 5 or 6 recent messages about the term, starting with Jim’s. If it’s still too confusing, again ask for clarification or a summary and challenge those using the terms;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 6. Use ‘Useful Posts’ and look under topics on which clarification or some past posts may be useful. For example, for some current threads, look under: Nibbana, Udana, Rupas, Luminous, Khandhas. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ 7. Whatever else, keep encouraging our models like Kom.....;-)) ..... > I will keep reading the posts though, and may respond to any which I > can understand. Believe it or not, some posts speak to me in a > certain way, even when I don't cognitively understand what is > written; I can tell that they have said something important. That is > why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a dictionary of a thousands-of- > years-old dead language. (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I > told him, 'The Internet' :-) ..... I expect he thinks we’ve made up our own language;-) Actually, I’ve used dictionaries very little over the years (as I’m not a pali scholar), although I’ve always found the Nyantiloka dictionary very useful. For most the terms in question, one has to understand a meaning that goes beyond a definition. For example, if you read rupa: physical phenomena or that which cannot experience, it doesn’t help very much. Like Nina has the alphabet at the front of the dictionary with the page numbers, I have tabs in the PTS dict with letters on. Really though, one should learn the alphabet just as a child does in English. The Pali alphabet is far more logical as it follows the phonetic pronunciation according to lingusistic rules. Hope there’s something helpful here. James, you really encourage us all with your keen interest and you have the right priorities in your abhidhamma and other studies: i.e the relevance to daily life and understand of present phenomena or realities. In appreciation, Sarah ===== 16847 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:46pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi Howard, Howard wrote:> P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows > the > importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, > any road will get you there." ;-)) > -------------------------------- Christine: I'll see your 'Lewis Carroll quote' and raise you one 'Thomas Merton': "How do you expect to arrive at the end of your journey if you take the road to another one's city?" Be at ease Howard, you are never offensive - however, taking advantage of your guilt and remorse (am I overstating the case?), could you please point me to a reference or link for this previous statement of yours? (consider this question vipaka :)). > Moreover the notion of > nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > paham" is not > "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, ------------------------------------ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Nina (and all) - > > I just re-read the following attempt at humor by me, and, to my > dismay, I can see that it might easily be considered offensive. That was far > from my intention. (In fact, I intended it to be open to alternative readings > one of which makes fun of myself.) > Please excuse me for not being more careful. I do apologize if I > caused any offense by this. I wouldn't want to offend even those whom I think > little of, let alone you folks whom I value so highly! > > With metta, > Howard > 16848 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:12am Subject: Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) Hi James, I can’t resist responding to this post of yours: --- James wrote: > > I wasn't sure if I would mention this or not, but with Howard's > recent public apology I guess it is okay to present a public apology > of my own. I was reading some of my posts to my boyfriend, and he > was very displeased about this particular post above. He said that I > sound like I am bragging or something to go on and on about my past > with writing a book. .... Be grateful you have a concerned good friend to point out any hometruths. From the commentary to the metta sutta in The Minor Readings (Khuddakapatha) on the meaning of: “And Meek and gentle and not proud”, we read: “....For a person who, when told ‘this ought not to be done’ says ‘What has been seen by you? What has been heard by you? Who are you that you speak to me; are you a Preceptor, Teacher, friend, compamion?’ or obstructs with silence or accepts (the admonition) but does not act on it, is far from arriving at any distinction; but one who, when advised, says ‘Good, venerable sir, well said. What is blameworthy is hard to see in oneslelf. If you should see me again thus, tell me out of compassion. may I long have advice from you’ and practises acording as instructed, is not far from arriving at distinction. That is why he would be meek (easily-speakable-to) by accepting (others’ advice) and acting on it. And he would be gentle (mud: lit. ‘malleable’) just as he would be meek...........Or alternatively, the word gentle (means that) he would be without grimaces, open-countenanced, easy to talk with and as welcoming as a good ford with an easy approach. And he would be not only gentle but also not proud (anatimaanii) as well; he would not be proud towards others on account of such grounds for pride as birth, race, etc, but would abide like the elder Sariputta even-minded (to all alike) whether outcaste or prince.” ***** We all have a long way to go until we’re even-minded like Sariputta and I appreciate that you were able to listen on this occasion and smile about it as well. I was given a reminder yesterday of some speech on my part that was possibly indiscreet and am only too aware of the pride and clinging to self which can hear these reminders when there isn’t any “meek, gentle and not proud’ listening. As you have been suggesting, if any abhidhamma or other knowledge is merely intellectual, one may become proud and arrogant, not understanding the purpose of the Buddha’s compassion in sharing all the Teachings with us. ..... >I told him that I just mentioned it off-hand > because it seemed to fit the current discussion and I was reminded of > it. He said I should have just mentioned it then and not gone into > such depth; and I probably meant to subconsciously in order to 'show > off'. He told me that to do so demonstrates that I have a definite > issue with `Pride' and that is against Buddhism. Darn it, I hate it > when he is so right! (I guess it is my karma to be moderated > everywhere until I get it!):-) ..... ;-) Luckily for all of us here, you and your friend are doing it for us:-) .... > I apologize to everyone for my > obvious display of pride and conceit in this post. I will try to > keep my posts to pure dharma and not my personal life…though that is > very difficult for me. I cannot seem to separate my life from dharma > or dharma from my life. And I honestly don't think people should. > But I don't have to blab about myself all the time in these posts. > Sorry again. .... I’m sure we were all smiling, don’t worry;-) The comments the Ven made about your written style were very true. Maybe half-way through the book you can just show your U-turn and how your ‘monastery’ became the internet, and you replaced the robes for the armchair to consider satipatthana and the vinaya (if that doesn’t sound disrespectful in anyway). Seriously, I think it’s so helpful to begin to know and be honest about one’s real tendencies and accumulations -- all of which are not-self-- and to live naturally without forcing a way of life which may not be suitable. Sarah ===== 16849 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Sarah, Thanks for these helpful hints. I am going to print out that list and start to use it. These 'behind the scenes' details are very helpful. Thank you for the effort to help me understand better. Very kind of you. Metta, James --- Sarah wrote: > Dear James, > > --- James wrote: > > > > Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out > more times than I care > > to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali > words and each of > > them are essential for understanding the sentence. > I go to the > > online dictionary, which means I must open another > window and jump > > back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the > first word. > > However, I can't find the meaning of the second > word. It tells me it > > doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words > to choose from. I > > look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that > by context clues I > > will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get > the meaning of > > that word. However, the missing word makes all of > the difference and > > I still don't understand the sentence. I have > spent at least 15 > > minutes trying to find out the meaning of one > sentence, end up > > fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is > FILLED with even more > > Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. > Whew! It is a > > true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that > I needed a print > > dictionary to understand these posts. > ..... > ;-) It’s hard not to smile about your frustrating > experience. James, I > really admire the diligence and the trouble you go > to. > > A few more tips, in the hope that at least one will > be of some use. (Just > as we all now see Howard as our ‘model’ meditator, > for this exercise I’m > thinking of Kom as our ‘model’ abhidhamma writer > -thanks, Kom-;-)) > > 1. If you’re new to the list and new to the Pali > terms - relax. it takes > time to ‘tune in’. For the Star Kids, I select the > appropriate posts or > just those written to them. We all have to do a > little selection of what > we are ready to hear as well. > > 2. Posts are usually written in the language > appropriate for the ‘named’ > recipient. When you write to the Star Kids, you use > simple language that > they'll find helpful. So if Kom is writing to Larry, > he knows Larry will > mostly be able to follow the Pali terms used, having > discussed the entire > ADL in detail already.These terms often/usually > convey the meaning more > precisely. > (If Kom and Num are speaking together, then really > watch out - you may > need a ThaiPali dict;-)) > > 3. Print out the Pali-English glossary Christine > mentioned from the Files > section and keep it next to your computer: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > You will find that about 80% of the terms Kom and > most of us use are > contained in this list. (I don’t quite guarantee > that rate for Rahula’s, > Suan’s or Num’s posts which have me pulling out > dictionaries too;-)) > > 4. If it’s a topic of special interest and you > suspect some brilliance, > ask Kom or the poster to explain further. Just as a > kid in class who > raises a hand to say “I don’t understand’ does the > rest of the class a big > favour, so will you. There will always be plenty of > other lurkers quietly > thanking you for this. > > 5. Use escribe to check back on a thread which may > have started weeks, > months or years ago, such as a couple B.Bodhi > responded to. The > dictionaries won’t be very helpful, but some past > posts may be. For > example, BB’s post to Suan is on the use of > ‘pilapanti’ as used in the > Satipatthana Sutta. Key this word into the search on > escribe (while it’s > up and running) and you’ll find it neatly shows 5 > or 6 recent messages > about the term, starting with Jim’s. If it’s still > too confusing, again > ask for clarification or a summary and challenge > those using the terms;-) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > > 6. Use ‘Useful Posts’ and look under topics on which > clarification or some > past posts may be useful. For example, for some > current threads, look > under: Nibbana, Udana, Rupas, Luminous, Khandhas. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > 7. Whatever else, keep encouraging our models like > Kom.....;-)) > ..... > > I will keep reading the posts though, and may > respond to any which I > > can understand. Believe it or not, some posts > speak to me in a > > certain way, even when I don't cognitively > understand what is > > written; I can tell that they have said something > important. That is > > why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a > dictionary of a thousands-of- > > years-old dead language. (The clerk at the > bookstore was confused and > > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never > heard of it. I > > told him, 'The Internet' :-) > ..... > I expect he thinks we’ve made up our own language;-) > Actually, I’ve used > dictionaries very little over the years (as I’m not > a pali scholar), > although I’ve always found the Nyantiloka dictionary > very useful. For most > the terms in question, one has to understand a > meaning that goes beyond a > definition. For example, if you read rupa: physical > phenomena or that > which cannot experience, it doesn’t help very much. > > Like Nina has the alphabet at the front of the > dictionary with the page > numbers, I have tabs in the PTS dict with letters > on. Really though, one > should learn the alphabet just as a child does in > English. The Pali > alphabet is far more logical as it follows the > phonetic pronunciation > according to lingusistic rules. > > Hope there’s something helpful here. James, you > really encourage us all > with your keen interest and you have the right > priorities in your > abhidhamma and other studies: i.e the relevance to > daily life and > understand of present phenomena or realities. > > In appreciation, > > Sarah > ===== > > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16850 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) --- Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I can’t resist responding to this post of yours: Sarah, I didn't expect anyone to reply, but I am glad that it is you and that you aren't being 'superior' in your response. I am not perfect but, unlike some, I don't accept my imperfections as a permanent condition. There are no excuses for poor, short-sighted behavior when correct behavior is possible. I encourage my boyfriend to point out to me whenever he sees me doing some of my habitually negative traits: Pride, Irritation, and Attachment. I ask him to do this because I normally don't see them in myself but others can more easily see them. When he does this, I don't argue, I thank him for telling me and take note to avoid that behavior in the future. I don't say to myself, "Well, that's just the way I am." Or make excuses...hmmm...maybe a little ;-). Life is very complicated but I do sincerely want to be the best person I can be. I want to be someone who looks back at his life when I am about to die and to know that I did the best I could to be a decent human being. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16851 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) Hi James, This reminds me of a discussion that we have been having in our class recently. We are studying conditional relations and it is clear that akusala (bad) factors can condition kusala (good) results. I used the example of why I volunteered to teach the class; there was an element of conceit (mana), which is akusala, in my decision making, even though the end result was good. Why do I work so hard to prepare each week for my class? There is definitely some fear (dosa), fear of making a fool of myself, involved. Certainly there is a drive to investigate the dhamma (vimamsa), which is kusala, involved, but the end result (which is good) is certainly conditioned by some bad accumulations. The trick is to know your own bad accumulations and try to channel the energy from them into doing something good. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi James, > > > > I can't resist responding to this post of yours: > > Sarah, > > I didn't expect anyone to reply, but I am glad that it > is you and that you aren't being 'superior' in your > response. I am not perfect but, unlike some, I don't > accept my imperfections as a permanent condition. > There are no excuses for poor, short-sighted behavior > when correct behavior is possible. I encourage my > boyfriend to point out to me whenever he sees me doing > some of my habitually negative traits: Pride, > Irritation, and Attachment. I ask him to do this > because I normally don't see them in myself but others > can more easily see them. When he does this, I don't > argue, I thank him for telling me and take note to > avoid that behavior in the future. I don't say to > myself, "Well, that's just the way I am." Or make > excuses...hmmm...maybe a little ;-). > > Life is very complicated but I do sincerely want to be > the best person I can be. I want to be someone who > looks back at his life when I am about to die and to > know that I did the best I could to be a decent human > being. > > Metta, James > > ===== > Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. > > ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ > 16852 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Suan,and All, Thank you for your post. I understand why you are suggesting that I stick to the Buddha's own unmistakeable definition of nibbana - but it is a little like being told not to think of 'elephants', the harder one tries and the more one checks what thinking is thinking, the more impossible it becomes. It's 'elephants' everywhere in there. :) And this is a little more difficult - Thanissaro Bhikkhu, with his translations of selected suttas freely available on Access to Insight, has shaped Buddhist practice for perhaps the majority of western Theravada Buddhists and their teachers, particularly their understanding of meditation. The quote "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." was Verse 25 is in MN49 hard copy trans. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi "Middle Length discourses of the Buddha" (Wisdom, 1995) top of page 428. The Sutta is very long (seven pages) but I have found note 513 which may give you a clue as to where it is in your translation. (If you think Maurice Walshe's rendition at the end of n.513 hits the mark, I'll be happy with that.) n.513 reads "These lines (which also appear as part of a full verse at DN 11.85/i.223) have been a perennial challenge to Buddhist scholarship, and even Acariya Buddhaghosa seems to founder over them. MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized". This is obviously a contrived derivation, since nowhere in the Canon is Nibbana ever described as consciousness. <<{As you also said Suan, "It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts.}>> MA offers three explanations of the phrase subbato pabham: (1) completely possessed of splendour (pabha); (2) possessing being (pabhutam) everywhere; and (3) a ford (pahham) accessible from all sides, i.e. through any of the thirty-eight meditation objects. Only the first of these seems to have any linguistic legitimacy. Nm, in Ms, explains that he takes pabham to be a negative present participle of pabhavati - apabham - the negative-prefix 'a' dropping off in conjunction with sabbato: "The sense can be paraphrased freely by 'not predicating being in relation to "all,"' or 'not assuming of "all" that it is or is not in an absolute sense.'" As an alternative translation more in keeping with MA, Maurice Walshe renders "... consciousness [that] is signless, boundless, all- luminous". (Thus Have I Heard, p.179). I'm not sure what Ms or MA mean either. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Christine > > You asked: > > "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon > about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal > consciousness?" > > verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, > And in becoming about to disbecome, > Not claiming being with respect to all." > > > Where did you get verse 25? I could not find it in MN49 and MN109. > > Before I explain verse 25, I need to read it in the original Pali. > > According to Udaana description of nibbana, there is no eternal > consciousness. To my knowledge, there is no other type of > consciousness outside the consciousness aggrtegate in the five > aggregates. > > > You also asked: > > "what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a > form of eternal consciousness?" > > That note is merely Sayadaw Thannisaro's personal speculation > (attanomati). It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts. > > The very fact that he felt the need to write that note showed that he > himslef must have found it surprising or unbelievable in the first > place. Otherwise, he would not have gone out of his way to write that > note. > > Please kindly read, ponder and stick to the Buddha's own unmistakable > definition of nibbaana in Udaana. > > > With kind regards, > > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org 16853 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) Hi James, --- James Mitchell wrote: > > I didn't expect anyone to reply, but I am glad that it > is you and that you aren't being 'superior' in your > response. .... ;-) thanks, I'd be wanting an excuse to quote the piece from the commentary and this was the excuse I needed. I was really writing it for myself as I need to hear a lot of reminders and certainly have nothing to be 'superior' about in this (or any other) regard. Thanks for your good example (In yr other comments - very impressive) and for your boyfriend's assistance. Maybe he can monitor us all?? J/K Sarah >I am not perfect but, unlike some, I don't > accept my imperfections as a permanent condition. > There are no excuses for poor, short-sighted behavior > when correct behavior is possible. I encourage my > boyfriend to point out to me whenever he sees me doing > some of my habitually negative traits: Pride, > Irritation, and Attachment. I ask him to do this > because I normally don't see them in myself but others > can more easily see them. When he does this, I don't > argue, I thank him for telling me and take note to > avoid that behavior in the future. I don't say to > myself, "Well, that's just the way I am." Or make > excuses...hmmm...maybe a little ;-). 16854 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:18am Subject: Rupa Dear James, Just a point about rupa and the Abhidhamma. You can also find many suttas where the Buddha expounded on rupa eg: III. 2. 5. Bahudhaatukasutta.m- (115) The Discourse on Many Elements ......... When this was said, venerable Aananda asked the Blessed One, `Venerable sir, saying it rightly how does the wise bhikkhu become an inquirer?'.......... ``There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six elements, such as the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness, Ananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements'.""""" We can check and find out whether attachment is conditioned by rupa? Do some visble objects (ie rupayatana) condition attachment, some aversion, some neither? Do some tastes (type of rupa) do the same; smells, touched objects, sounds? Robert 16855 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:25am Subject: Re: a letter form Charles Bleach --- Dear Charles, I wish I had known what you know when I was 8. In my childhood none of my friends or teachers knew about kamma so mostly we all did what we were told to do (unless we thought we could get away with something secretly) . And when I was a teeenager I lived a reckless life because I really had no idea about what life is. Now I make sure my children understand about kamma, like you do; it makes such a big difference now and in the future. I hope you can continue on your understanding. "My mother is > the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U Great job! I use BVlgari for men. My wife and I divorced too. Kind regards robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > > > Dear Jan, > > I don't know much about Buddhism.What was your poem? I > cant really say anything because I'm only 8 years old. > I almost forgot my name is Charles. I come from Hong > Kong. I like playing football, swimming and gym. I > like animals such as eagle's, rabbits, rats, pigeon's > and hawks and I like race cars. > > I understood everything in the letters about Buddhism. > I think we never really die we just get reborn as a > human if we are good, if your very good you get reborn > as a god, if your nice you get reborn as an animal, > if your bad you get reborn as an insect. > > My parents are very nice people. My father is a > barrister, he likes painting with me. My mother is > the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U) and they just > divorced. > > My nationality is half English a quarter French and a > quarter of Vietnamese. > > From Charles > P.S : Jan helped me type this up. > > 16856 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:51am Subject: Re: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/11/02 2:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > Howard wrote:> P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis > Carroll which shows > >the > >importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are > going, > >any road will get you there." ;-)) > > > -------------------------------- > Christine: I'll see your 'Lewis Carroll quote' and raise you > one 'Thomas Merton': > > "How do you expect to arrive at the end of your journey > if you take the road to another one's city?" > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My quote toasts yours! Cheers!! (I don't drink, but I can remember! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Be at ease Howard, you are never offensive > > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. (Also thanks to James, whom I wrote privately.) My post was ill considered, however, and I do hope that Nina is "okay" with it.) -------------------------------------------- - however, taking > > advantage of your guilt and remorse (am I overstating the case?), > could you please point me to a reference or link for this previous > statement of yours? (consider this question vipaka :)). -------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) I'm getting off easy then! The url is the following: http://www.creativequotations.com/one/336a.htm -------------------------------------------- > > >Moreover the notion of > >nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > >paham" is not > >"Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, > ------------------------------------ > > metta, > Christine > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16857 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:17am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine, Nina, and All How are you? Recently, Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in his message "On The Luminous Mind" the following: "A cautious principle that I follow is to avoid constructing novel interpretations of the Dhamma on the basis of a few isolated canonical passages, particularly those in verse (not the case here). It is always best to build one?s interpretations upon those ideas that are found repeatedly in the Nikayas, and then to assume that any apparently deviant statement can somehow be interpreted in a way consistent with these main ?building blocks? of interpretation." Sayadaw's advice above is what the Buddha would call "Yoniso manasikaaro". Yoniso manasikaaro is one of the causes for a healthy consciousness to arise. I would like to translate yoniso manasikaaro literally as the making of an object in the mind sensibly". "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. Because it is part of a verse, we need to take extra care when we try to make sense of it. We also need to check what the Arahant commentators and the traditional ascetic commentators had to say on the matter. And, we also need to remember what 99.99 % of the Buddha's repeated teachings convey in Pali Tipitaka texts. Moreover, we also need to be aware of the linguistic anomalies in natural languages such as Pali and English. There is such a linguistic anomaly as homonym. A homonym is "a word pronounced and often spelled the same as another but having a different meaning." It is very common for the poets to use homonyms and synonyms in their poems and verses to give the readers the unusual feel-good factor and unexpected insights. The verse in Section 499, Keva.t.ta Suttam is no different from other poems in provoking the readers with its use of homonyms and contrasts. "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta verse is a HOMONYM. I am a multi-ligual. When we learn a foreign language, we aim to become more and more mature and sophisticated in the new language we are learning. Once we have mastered the grammar and syntax rules, we need to handle words progressively and sensitively. Words with the same looks and sounds change their meanings in different contexts. One of the most blatant examples of homonyms, one with loftiest meaning and the other with the lowliest meaning is "abhuutam". "Abhuutam", when describing nibbaana in Udaana, means "neither caused by others, nor self-caused". But, "abhuutam" in the phrase "abhuutam ataccham" in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya means "untruth". No self-respecting, liguistically mature Pali scholar would not translate the term "abhuutam" in the definition of nibbaana in Section 73, Tatiyanibbaanapa.tisamyutta Suttam, Udaana Pali, as UNTRUTH even though "abhuutam" can mean "untruth" in in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya. Therefore, the term "Viññaa.nam" in "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 and in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo must be treated as a HOMONYM and translated according to the context by examining the message of the verse as a whole, not just that term in isolation. By carefully reading and examining the verse as whole and treating the term "Viññaa.nam" as a HOMONYM, and by consulting the commentaries, I reached the conclusion that we cannot translate the term "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta Suttam verse as consciousness. We can leave "Viññaa.nam" as it is without translating it. We never translate the term "nibbaana", do we? Or if we must translate it, we can translate it as nibbaana in line with the commentary on Keva.t.ta Suttam. Some Pali scholars who think that Pali language does not have homonyms, and who think they know better than the standard commentaries may translate as they please. With kind reagrd Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Suan,and All, > > Thank you for your post. I understand why you are suggesting that I > stick to the Buddha's own unmistakeable definition of nibbana - but > it is a little like being told not to think of 'elephants', the > > metta, > Christine > 16858 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Hi, Suan - It is an interesting idea that 'viññaa.nam' might be a homonym in this usage with a meaning other than consciousness. There are, of course, loads of homonyms in virtually all languages. For example, in English 'sound' may refer to an auditory event or to a body of water, two completely unrelated meanings, both occurring broadly throughout the language. But one should know what the meaning of 'viññaa.nam' is in this given usage. It would need to be something which would make sense as being "non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round." It is not unreasonable to say that nibbana fits that. So, one might say that, there, 'viññaa.nam' simply means nibbana. The question arises, however, of whether anyone knows of even one other canonical reference for 'viññaa.nam' with the meaning of nibbana. If not, it is quite a "push" to think that this argument explains away the issue. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/11/02 10:16:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Christine, Nina, and All > > How are you? > > Recently, Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in his message "On The Luminous > Mind" the following: > > "A cautious principle that I follow is to avoid constructing novel > interpretations of the Dhamma on the basis of a few isolated > canonical passages, particularly those in verse (not the case here). > It is always best to build one?s interpretations upon those ideas > that are found repeatedly in the Nikayas, and then to assume that any > apparently deviant statement can somehow be interpreted in a way > consistent with these main ?building blocks? of interpretation." > > Sayadaw's advice above is what the Buddha would call "Yoniso > manasikaaro". Yoniso manasikaaro is one of the causes for a healthy > consciousness to arise. I would like to translate yoniso manasikaaro > literally as the making of an object in the mind sensibly". > > "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in > Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta > Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. > > Because it is part of a verse, we need to take extra care when we try > to make sense of it. We also need to check what the Arahant > commentators and the traditional ascetic commentators had to say on > the matter. And, we also need to remember what 99.99 % of the > Buddha's repeated teachings convey in Pali Tipitaka texts. > > Moreover, we also need to be aware of the linguistic anomalies in > natural languages such as Pali and English. There is such a > linguistic anomaly as homonym. > > A homonym is "a word pronounced and often spelled the same as another > but having a different meaning." > > It is very common for the poets to use homonyms and synonyms in their > poems and verses to give the readers the unusual feel-good factor and > unexpected insights. > > The verse in Section 499, Keva.t.ta Suttam is no different from other > poems in provoking the readers with its use of homonyms and > contrasts. > > "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta verse is a HOMONYM. > > I am a multi-ligual. When we learn a foreign language, we aim to > become more and more mature and sophisticated in the new language we > are learning. Once we have mastered the grammar and syntax rules, we > need to handle words progressively and sensitively. Words with the > same looks and sounds change their meanings in different contexts. > > One of the most blatant examples of homonyms, one with loftiest > meaning and the other with the lowliest meaning is "abhuutam". > > "Abhuutam", when describing nibbaana in Udaana, means "neither caused > by others, nor self-caused". > > But, "abhuutam" in the phrase "abhuutam ataccham" in Section 86, > Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya > means "untruth". > > No self-respecting, liguistically mature Pali scholar would not > translate the term "abhuutam" in the definition of nibbaana in > Section 73, Tatiyanibbaanapa.tisamyutta Suttam, Udaana Pali, as > UNTRUTH even though "abhuutam" can mean "untruth" in in Section 86, > Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya. > > Therefore, the term "Viññaa.nam" in "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam > sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 and in Section 499 in > Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo must be treated > as a HOMONYM and translated according to the context by examining the > message of the verse as a whole, not just that term in isolation. > > By carefully reading and examining the verse as whole and treating > the term "Viññaa.nam" as a HOMONYM, and by consulting the > commentaries, I reached the conclusion that we cannot translate the > term "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta Suttam verse as consciousness. > > We can leave "Viññaa.nam" as it is without translating it. We never > translate the term "nibbaana", do we? Or if we must translate it, we > can translate it as nibbaana in line with the commentary on Keva.t.ta > Suttam. > > Some Pali scholars who think that Pali language does not have > homonyms, and who think they know better than the standard > commentaries may translate as they please. > > With kind reagrd > > Suan > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16859 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:37am Subject: Re: Rupa Robert, Thank you for this sutta quote. I had never read it before. It is fascinating because I haven't read too much of the Buddha speaking physics. BUT, and this is a very big question, it appears to me here, very distinctly, that the Buddha is saying that there is no difference between Nama and Rupa. He is saying that consciousness (Nama) is simply another element like earth, air, fire, water, and space (Rupa). So I don't know if this quote necessarily disproves what I was saying in regards to there being a contradiction between the Abhidhamma and the suttas in regards to Rupa and Nama being seperate. Obviously the Buddha didn't seperate them in his 'cosmology'. So actually, you may have further strengthened my original point. But I am not sure if this is an important issue really. I need to finish my studies of the Abhidhamma. This may simply be an issue of perspective and doesn't necessarily contradict the 'dhamma'. With Metta, James ps. I wonder what the Buddha means by the element of 'space'? Is this void? Or could it be support for Einstein's Theory of a 'Space- Time Fabric' that 'fills' the 'space' of the universe. Hmmmm...??? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > Just a point about rupa and the Abhidhamma. You can also find many > suttas where the Buddha expounded on rupa > eg: III. 2. 5. Bahudhaatukasutta.m- > (115) The Discourse on Many Elements > ......... > When this was said, venerable Aananda asked the Blessed > One, `Venerable sir, saying it rightly how does the wise bhikkhu > become an inquirer?'.......... > > ``There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six elements, > such as the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and > consciousness, Ananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu > knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the > elements'.""""" > > We can check and find out whether attachment is conditioned by rupa? > Do some visble objects (ie rupayatana) condition attachment, some > aversion, some neither? Do some tastes (type of rupa) do the > same; smells, touched objects, sounds? > Robert 16860 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:39am Subject: Re: Rupa Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > ps. I wonder what the Buddha means by the element of 'space'? Is > this void? Or could it be support for Einstein's Theory of a 'Space- > Time Fabric' that 'fills' the 'space' of the universe. Hmmmm...??? > Rupas always arise in groups (kalapas) which consist of at least eight rupas (the eight inseparable rupas). Our body consists of different groups of rupa and these groups are delimited by the rupa space. Space is the rupa that separates or limits; the infinitesimal space between the groups of rupa. It is "untouched by the four great Elements." Space-element has the characteristic of delimiting material objects, the function of showing their boundaries, the manifestation of showing their limits, state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause. It is that of which in the separated groups we say "this is above, this is below, this is across." Space delimits the groups of rupa which are produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition so that they are separate from each other. If there were no space in between the different groups of rupa, these groups would all be connected, not distinct from each other. Space comes into being whenever the groups of rupa are produced by the four factors and therefore it is regarded as originating from these four factors. I don't think that the rupa "space" relates to Einstein's space-time fabric. Prior to Einstein, space and time were considered to be absolutes and independent. One of Einstein's great achievements was to show that they are relative and that they are related. This is where the parallels with Buddhism arise. The relative concept of time is discussed by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera in "Abhidhamma Studies - Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time" and the relative nature of space is covered (with lots of math) in Filita P. Bharucha's, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity". In brief, the Buddha anticipated many of the concepts now becoming popular in modern science. However, one must understand the difference in focus between the Buddha and modern scientists such as Einstein. The Buddha focused on what we needed to know to escape samsara while modern scientists are looking to control the environment. This is why the Buddha's approach to rupa is quite phenomenological. Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 16861 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:47am Subject: Re: Rupa Hi James, Sorry, I am a little confused. I interpreted the Sutta as listing different paramattha dhammas; consciousness is different from rupa. There is one class of consciousness, 52 classes of cetasikas and 28 classes of rupa. They are all different; they all have different characteristics. The fact that the Buddha split them out shows that consciousness and rupa are separate entities. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > BUT, and this is a very big question, it appears to me here, very > distinctly, that the Buddha is saying that there is no difference > between Nama and Rupa. He is saying that consciousness (Nama) is > simply another element like earth, air, fire, water, and space > (Rupa). > > So I don't know if this quote necessarily disproves what I was saying > in regards to there being a contradiction between the Abhidhamma and > the suttas in regards to Rupa and Nama being seperate. Obviously the > Buddha didn't seperate them in his 'cosmology'. So actually, you may > have further strengthened my original point. But I am not sure if > this is an important issue really. I need to finish my studies of > the Abhidhamma. This may simply be an issue of perspective and > doesn't necessarily contradict the 'dhamma'. > > With Metta, James > ps. I wonder what the Buddha means by the element of 'space'? Is > this void? Or could it be support for Einstein's Theory of a 'Space- > Time Fabric' that 'fills' the 'space' of the universe. Hmmmm...??? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Just a point about rupa and the Abhidhamma. You can also find many > > suttas where the Buddha expounded on rupa > > eg: III. 2. 5. Bahudhaatukasutta.m- > > (115) The Discourse on Many Elements > > ......... > > When this was said, venerable Aananda asked the Blessed > > One, `Venerable sir, saying it rightly how does the wise bhikkhu > > become an inquirer?'.......... > > > > ``There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six > elements, > > such as the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and > > consciousness, Ananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu > > knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the > > elements'.""""" > > > > We can check and find out whether attachment is conditioned by > rupa? > > Do some visble objects (ie rupayatana) condition attachment, some > > aversion, some neither? Do some tastes (type of rupa) do > the > > same; smells, touched objects, sounds? > > Robert 16862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "what is awareness. Dear Jon and WL Another perplexed being coming in. how could it be otherwise: can we count our past lives where we have accumulated ignorance and wrong view? op 10-11-2002 13:17 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > >J: As another equally perplexed being, let me say I appreciate your > bringing this subject up. I think it's a very important area to > consider and discuss. Without a clear idea of what a moment of > awareness or understanding is supposed to be like, we are likely > either to not recognise it when it arises (being so weak and > indistinct) or to take some other 'experience' as being awareness and > understanding. N: This is what we discussed before and I like to continue, i never have enough of this. We should speak more on the objects of awareness as you say:we are likely > either to not recognise it when it arises (being so weak and > indistinct) or to take some other 'experience' as being awareness and > understanding. >(snip) >J: The function of awareness (sati) is to experience directly one of the > basic phenomena (dhammas) that make up the present moment. These > include such 'mundane' phenomena as seeing and visible object, > hearing and sound, thinking and feeling. When awareness arises it > will have one of these phenomena as it object, in other words, of one > of these phenomena will be experienced directly in a way that is not > normally the case. N: they are the normal seeing and visible object, but there can be a tiny bit more understanding of them. J:If insight (panna) arises, it sees the true nature > of the same object. > So to answer your question, I think we need to know as much about > insight as possible (what it is, how it functions, what can be its > object), consider what the Buddha said about its development and > reflect at length on how what we have learnt applies to the present > moment. WL: perhaps due to my ignorance, >> I have not found the answers yet. N: We are all in the same boat. WL: My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? >> How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere >> intellectural understanding of something N: This is really a very good question, very basic. Good questions show a degree of understanding. WL: ...suddenly something becomes clear to me. >> I'm sure everyone experiences that. Does that constitute as an >> insight or was it merely intellectural understanding or was it >> merely >> a concept construed by my mind with so much conviction that I >> actually thought it was insight? N: Insight cannot suddenly arise, there must be conditions cultivated for a long time, such as listening over and over again, considering over and over again, we cannot expect the arising of insight soon. We have to know what the object of awareness and direct understanding is: one characteristic of nama or rupa at a time through one of the six doorways. As I heard on a tape of A. Sujin: All the teachings remind us of the characteristics of dhammas which appear, and sometimes there can be awareness, sati, without thinking. It is so rare, but this does not matter, it can be accumulated. If it matters we are clinging to a result. There are many degrees of sati: of dana, of sila, of samatha and of insight. When we begin to consider one reality at a time as it appears now, there is a degree of sati. It is a condition for the arising later on of sati-sampaja~n~na, sati and panna, which penetrates the characteristics of dhammas. Kom stressed the importance of knowing dhammas, realities, different from concepts. He explained in a clear way what realities are: Kom: The Buddha teaches about Sacca-dhamma: the dhamma that truly exists. Even without the Buddha, kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala. If akusala states are arising in ourselves, and others (or we) say it is good, the states are still akusala. If kusala states are arising in ourselves, and others say it is no good, the states are still kusala. Kusala/akusala states are not about situations or stories: they are about the qualities of the realities that are arising now. Dhamma is anatta because it has the characteristics that nobody can control... N: So helpful for all of us to consider this. Kusala is kusala it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. Seeing is seeing, it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. It does not matter which name we give it. This is a way to understand the difference between reality and concept. It is an approach from the practice, more helpful than theoretical definitions of concept and reality. Now I quote from a post Rob K wrote some time ago which is helpful: there is seeing already, it is conditioned, we od not have to do anything to make it arise. it is reality, fit for awareness. Rob K: you don't have to try to have seeing - and yet it still arises. So it is not a matter, I believe, of trying to change anything ; it is instead a matter of seeing what is present now. It can always be tested because sati comes with detachment and equanimity - of a rather effortless nature. That is why understanding anatta and the uncontrollabilty of realities is crucial - otherwise there will always be a subtle belief of someone who can do something, always 'someone' to 'protect', always a search (lobha -desire) for something other than what is right now. Our refuge since time began has been the conceptual world with it promises of future pleasure or memories of past happiness. But this is an unsteady refuge. The present moment is the real world and if that is known then there can be the knowing that what the Buddha said is true - that dhammas are conditioned and evanescent- and seeing that loosens attachement to the ephemeral world: who would cling to a lump of foam, a mirage or a magic show?. Of course it must take a long time to properly see this and so we live mostly in the conceptual world in the beginning with little glimpses below the surface . end quote. I find it helpful to discuss about what awareness and insight are. Nina. ----------------- 16863 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rupa --- robmoult wrote: > Hi James, > > Sorry, I am a little confused. > > I interpreted the Sutta as listing different > paramattha dhammas; > consciousness is different from rupa. There is one > class of > consciousness, 52 classes of cetasikas and 28 > classes of rupa. They > are all different; they all have different > characteristics. The fact > that the Buddha split them out shows that > consciousness and rupa are > separate entities. Rob, Is there a sutta from the Sutta Pitaka where the Buddha splits consciousness and Rupa into these different classes? You write, "The fact that the Buddha split them out..." Where is that a proven fact? According to the sutta you quote, the Buddha only split 'elements' into: earth, air, fire , water, space, and consciousness. They are all under the category of: Elements. Post facto, that makes consciousness a 'Rupa' element in the same category of other 'Rupa' elements. At least according to this quote. I think we have established that the Abhidhamma was written hundreds of years after the Buddha's death. The author couldn't have possibly heard what the Buddha taught in order to record it. And the material contained within was not passed from monk to monk or it would have been recorded at the first counsels in one form or another. This is an original work and not the work of the Buddha. That doesn't necessarily prove that it is false or contrary to dhamma, but it should be considered. Metta, James ps. Your other post about Abhidhammic Space was quite good and helped me to understand that part of the theory. Sorry to drag you through my 'growing pains' with this new material for me. But you are being a true gentleman and a scholar. (But, friendly reminder, so that I can brown-nose the moderators ;-), that post should have been trimmed of previous discussion...it was a mile long! ;-) ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16864 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:44am Subject: Re: Way 23, Comm Hi James, and All, It may be worthwhile reading the following two posts. This is a subject that has been the cause of rather interesting discussions in the past and will no doubt involve further stimulating exchanges in the future. As you will see, differing opinions are held, and the result of the discussions is often a courteous agreement to disagree. Some of us started our practice in one manner, and have changed to another. Some of us continue in the way we were first taught. It all depends upon our accumulations, and our understanding of what the texts mean by bhavana, mental development. from Nyanatiloka: bhávaná: 'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'. One has to distinguish 2 kinds: development of tranquillity (samatha-bhávaná), i.e. concentration (samádhi), and development of insight (vipassaná-bhávaná), i.e. wisdom (paññá). These two important terms, tranquillity and insight (s. samatha- vipassaná), are very often met with and explained in the Sutta, as well as in the Abhidhamma. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14276 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14817 metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Hi All, > It is funny that I read this tonight because it touches on something > I was thinking about. Tonight I am having one of those nights, I am > not sure if others have these times or not, when I am naturally > reflective, naturally peaceful, and naturally meditative. <<>> 16865 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Hi Nina, Thanks for this post. I was having a 'manic monday' and missed seeing your info at first. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine and Suan > Jim explained before that in this case vi~n~naa.na does not mean citta, but: > what should be understood. ~naa.na is understanding. This is applicable to > nibbana. Since people do not realize this, they become confused and believe > that nibbana must be a certain type of consciousness. > Nina > op 10-11-2002 15:19 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > > > > "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon > > about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal > > consciousness?" 16866 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:12am Subject: Re: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) op 11-11-2002 04:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Hi Howard, you made me laugh again. Nothing offensive. Than another post: (Also thanks to James, whom I wrote privately.) My post was ill considered, however, and I do hope that Nina is "okay" with it.) I had another good laugh, poor Howard. How could it be ill considered. It is not my custom to answer the same day, but now I will.( I usually wait 24 hours:I never stay online, just send and receive only once.) Nina > Hi again, Nina (and all) - > > I just re-read the following attempt at humor by me, and, to my > dismay, I can see that it might easily be considered offensive. That was far > from my intention. 16867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:12am Subject: anupassati Dear Larry, Jim wrote to me about anupassati, you know kaayanupassii we discussed. He said what also was in my mind: I remember that formerly I met this, but it was used in an unfavorable sense, for lobha. Nina. 16868 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pride and apologies. Dear James, you made me laugh. Only arahats have eradicated all pride. You wrote: I cannot seem to separate my life from dharma > or dharma from my life. And I honestly don't think people should. N: do not separate, it is according to Dhamma to be just natural. Nina op 11-11-2002 07:57 schreef James op buddhatrue@y...: I wasn't sure if I would mention this or not, but with Howard's > recent public apology I guess it is okay to present a public apology > of my own. Darn it, I hate it > when he is so right! (I guess it is my karma to be moderated > everywhere until I get it!) :-) I apologize to everyone for my > obvious display of pride and conceit in this post. I will try to > keep my posts to pure dharma and not my personal life…though that is > very difficult for me. I cannot seem to separate my life from dharma > or dharma from my life. And I honestly don't think people should. 16869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Suan, I do like your explanation of homonyms, very clear. Only, it would sound strange to me to just leave Vi~n~nana.m untranslated. Is there not some sort of way out? Like: , as Jim suggested before? Nina. op 11-11-2002 16:17 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in > Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta > Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. > We can leave "Viññaa.nam" as it is without translating it. We never > translate the term "nibbaana", do we? Or if we must translate it, we > can translate it as nibbaana in line with the commentary on Keva.t.ta > Suttam. 16870 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: pride and apologies. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Dear James, you made me laugh. Only arahats have eradicated all pride. Nina, :-) What can I say? I shoot for the stars.... Metta, James 16871 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:08pm Subject: Re: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi, Nina - In a message dated Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:12:26 +0100, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > you made me laugh again. Nothing offensive. > Than another post: (Also thanks to James, whom I wrote privately.) My post > was > ill considered, however, and I do hope that Nina is "okay" with it.) > I had another good laugh, poor Howard. How could it be ill considered. It is > not my custom to answer the same day, but now I will.( I > usually wait 24 > hours:I never stay online, just send and receive only once.) > Nina =================== Thank you, Nina. Much appreciated. With metta, Howard 16872 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:36pm Subject: James, I am confused Hi James, I am not clear on what we disagree upon. Please help me focus. I believe that your position is that there is a fundamental disagreement between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma on the issue of Rupa. Am I correct? What do you see as the disagreement? If you really want to understand rupa, I suggest that you look at Nina's book (91 pages on rupas) available at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupf.pdf This book has lots of references to source documents; mainly commentaries, but also some Suttas. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Thanks for the reminder about trimming! 16873 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 23, Comm Hi James, There are different answers to your question and I am sure you know this one but I thought I would offer it anyway, since it is what I am working on. Whether meditation is easy or difficult, pleasant or unpleasant, the thing to look for is "where is James in this experience?" Larry 16874 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Hi James, Sorry for not responding you earlier. I really don't know how everyone does it, I am having such a hard time keeping up with the pace of this discussion group. So many wonderful discussions, thought-provoking statements, and so little time to contemplate over and digest what everyone says... No need to apologize at all, James. I enjoyed very much exchanges with you. I was merely clarifying my thoughts for I really did not think we were in much disagreement. Later, Wendy (aka WL) ----- Original Message ----- From: "James" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:54 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Dear WL, I don't think I have accused you of being uncompassionate or unloving in regards to Buddhism or anything else in life. If I implied that, I apologize. I have known all along that this is a theoretical discussion with nothing personal; any discussion about the nature of nibbana by non-arahants is purely theoretical, if not laughable. J But it is fun, keeps the mind sharp, and perhaps inspires one to continue practice (just from the interest garnered, not the knowledge). I don't believe anyone should follow Buddhism because they are looking forward to nibbana or Parinibbana, Antony or otherwise. Buddhism is best suited for those who can appreciate the journey rather than the destination. But, in regards to what you say about the nature of nibbana, I don't think we are in disagreement now. I don't see any differences between peace, love, and compassion. These are things that are at the conventional level and the ultimate level. I think Howard summarized this whole area of discussion best when he said, to paraphrase, that the nature of nibbana can't be known, but we know that it must contain a certain `consciousness'. After all, if it didn't, the Buddha couldn't have known it or described it even a little. According to the scriptures, one reaches nibbana when nibbana is all the mind knows; when the mind resides in nibbana like a perfect pearl of knowing. If nibbana had no quality of consciousness, that experience would be quite brain dead. But the Buddha knew it, had been there, and said that it is knowable. He didn't describe it as having the qualities of peace, love and compassion, so perhaps I am wrong, or perhaps the Buddha didn't want to describe it that way so that it wouldn't become overly 'alluring' to the bhikkhu and became the sole focus of practice. There were many things the Buddha didn't teach that he knew, by his own admission. And the subsequent arahants kept pretty tight lips also about what they knew. There must be a reason for that. ??? As far as `suffering', I was referring to mundane suffering. We all know death, sorrow, sickness, famine, loss, etc, but if you are referring to the `ultimate suffering', the suffering inherent in all aggregates/conditioned phenomenon, I would agree that that is difficult to see. As non-arahants who practice Buddhism (I`m sure there is some impressive Pali word to insert here, but darned if I know it.), we know that level of suffering only a little bit, and usually not at all, actually. Metta, James 16875 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 6:00pm Subject: Re: I am confused --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, > > I am not clear on what we disagree upon. Please help me focus. > > I believe that your position is that there is a fundamental > disagreement between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma on the issue of > Rupa. Am I correct? What do you see as the disagreement? Rob M, LOL! The subject heading of this post made me laugh; but, for your future reference (and everyone's future reference), I really don't like to see my name in subject headings. Please don't put my name in subject headings. There is no need to put my name to get my attention because I read every post religiously. There are reasons for this, but I have been asked not to discuss them in this group. I hope you don't take offense to this request. I have been reading various commentaries on the Abhidhamma, and I believe I have enough knowledge to confidently say that I don't agree with its concept of `rupa'. This is a complicated issue and I am going to be composing a post about it, but I need some time. It is going to be rather long and involved, but hopefully easily understandable. I am going to title it, "Why Abhidhamma `Rupa' is Rubbish" No offense to anyone, but I am entitled to my opinion. However, from what I have studied, I believe the Abhidhamma has much to offer in regards to recognizing mind states, mental processes, and sense perception. So I will approach the Abhidhamma from a `Middle Way' perspective: rupa is out, nama is in. Just so I don't leave you with nothing of what I propose, allow me to quote these first two stanzas of the Dhammapada. I am not going to provide any commentary, so they may make you even more confused as to my position; but you will probably get my meaning right away. BTW, Ajahn Geoff, who translated, substituted 'heart' for 'mind'; as in 'heart-mind', one of the connotative meanings of citta (mind). But regardless of the word used: heart, phenomenon, or whatever, it is still all MIND: Phenomena are preceded by the heart, ruled by the heart, made of the heart. If you speak or act with a corrupted heart, then suffering follows you -- as the wheel of the cart, the track of the ox that pulls it. Phenomena are preceded by the heart, ruled by the heart, made of the heart. If you speak or act with a calm, bright heart, then happiness follows you, like a shadow that never leaves. Metta, James 16876 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Way 23, Comm --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi James, > > There are different answers to your question and I am sure you know this > one but I thought I would offer it anyway, since it is what I am working > on. Whether meditation is easy or difficult, pleasant or unpleasant, the > thing to look for is "where is James in this experience?" > > Larry Dear Larry, You write: ...I thought I would offer it anyway, since it is what I am working on...Whether meditation is easy or difficult...the thing to look for is "where is James in this experience?" You are looking for ME in YOUR meditation experience??? Huh??? Do you think I am some kinda 'Where's Waldo?' character??? LOL! j/k I see what you are saying and I do that also. Actually, I call it "The Guided Tour of James"...*Mind During Meditation*: "Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for joining this tour today as we discover the exciting body and mind of James. Get your cameras ready. To your left you will see an itch...isn't that a lovely itch!!? Wow! That itch is really itching!! Oops! Sorry, folks, that itch went away. Nothing lasts on this tour so pay attention and keep your cameras ready. Quick everyone, to your right you will see a pulsating ankle pain! Gosh, isn't that amazing! Everytime it is more spectacular! *Ambient thinking interrupst* Hump! Please, may I remind everyone that there is no talking on this tour! We have many exiciting things to see. Now, to your left you will see..." Metta, James 16877 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 6:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Wendy, Thanks for writing. I didn't think you were ignoring me; I thought you were just letting me have the last word. That is the wise thing to do or our conversation could last for eternity! :-) j/k Yes, this group is really extensive, deep, and profound. But be happy, at least you get your money's worth! :-) Take care. Metta, James 16878 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: I am confused Hi, James - In a message dated 11/11/02 9:01:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > >Hi James, > > > >I am not clear on what we disagree upon. Please help me focus. > > > >I believe that your position is that there is a fundamental > >disagreement between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma on the issue of > >Rupa. Am I correct? What do you see as the disagreement? > > Rob M, > > LOL! The subject heading of this post made me laugh; but, for your > future reference (and everyone's future reference), I really don't > like to see my name in subject headings. Please don't put my name in > subject headings. There is no need to put my name to get my > attention because I read every post religiously. There are reasons > for this, but I have been asked not to discuss them in this group. I > hope you don't take offense to this request. > > I have been reading various commentaries on the Abhidhamma, and I > believe I have enough knowledge to confidently say that I don't > agree with its concept of `rupa'. This is a complicated issue and I > am going to be composing a post about it, but I need some time. It > is going to be rather long and involved, but hopefully easily > understandable. I am going to title it, "Why Abhidhamma `Rupa' is > Rubbish" No offense to anyone, but I am entitled to my opinion. > > However, from what I have studied, I believe the Abhidhamma has much > to offer in regards to recognizing mind states, mental processes, > and sense perception. So I will approach the Abhidhamma from > a `Middle Way' perspective: rupa is out, nama is in. > > Just so I don't leave you with nothing of what I propose, allow me to > quote these first two stanzas of the Dhammapada. I am not going to > provide any commentary, so they may make you even more confused as to > my position; but you will probably get my meaning right away. BTW, > Ajahn Geoff, who translated, substituted 'heart' for 'mind'; as > in 'heart-mind', one of the connotative meanings of citta (mind). > But regardless of the word used: heart, phenomenon, or whatever, it > is still all MIND: > > Phenomena are preceded by the heart, > ruled by the heart, > made of the heart. > If you speak or act > with a corrupted heart, > then suffering follows you -- > as the wheel of the cart, > the track of the ox > that pulls it. > > Phenomena are preceded by the heart, > ruled by the heart, > made of the heart. > If you speak or act > with a calm, bright heart, > then happiness follows you, > like a shadow > that never leaves. > > Metta, James > > =========================== I may be misinterpreting, but it *sounds* to me that you might be taking an idealist perspective in which there is nothing but mind, with objects of awareness being mind just as much as the awareness itself. This is basically the perspective of the Mahayana sutra called the Lankavatara Sutra. My perspective is a radical phenomenalism which is similar to idealism, but not identical to it. I find it easy, BTW, to see the Abhidhamma view as a phenomenalism wherein direct objects of awareness (as opposed to the alleged referents of our concepts) are experiential - such as phenomena such as hardness, softness, warmth, cold, anger, images, sounds, etc, etc, but not trees, cars, and other alleged "external objects". A moderate phenomenalism is noncommittal with regard to existence of external objects, but only admits to actually experiencing "internal" phenomena. A radical phenomenalism is a phenomenalism mixed with a pragmatism that says that whatever is, in principle, not knowable, such as an alleged "external object", is effectively non-existent. But even a radical phenomenalism distinguishes material forms such as images, sounds, tastes, touch-feelings, etc, all of which are internal objects of experience from the knowing of them. And Buddhism, should it be a form of phenomenalism, still distinguishes mental objects (such as feelings, volitions, memories, emotions etc) from physical objects (such as sound, sights, hardness, etc). An idealism, however, especially as expressed in the Lankavatara Sutra, seems to be a kind of substantialist view, where the substance is "mind stuff". Mind, in this school of thought, becomes a kind of absolute self, with subject and objects all being modifications of this mind-stuff. As I see it, this is a kind of Vedantic Buddhism, and not genuine Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16879 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: I am confused Hi James (& Rob M), James wrote: > I have been reading various commentaries on the Abhidhamma, and I > believe I have enough knowledge to confidently say that I don't > agree with its concept of `rupa'. This is a complicated issue and I > am going to be composing a post about it, but I need some time. It > is going to be rather long and involved, but hopefully easily > understandable. I am going to title it, "Why Abhidhamma `Rupa' is > Rubbish" No offense to anyone, but I am entitled to my opinion. ...... Just to give a quote from a sutta which discusses the REALITY of rupas in detail, to help you get your money's worth before you start (assuming you accept that, in this case, the words of Sariputta to be addressing the Buddha's Teachings): "And what are the five aggregates affected by clinging? they are the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the formations aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected bt clinging. "And what is the material form aggregate affected by clinging? It is the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements. And what are the four great elements? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element." (MN28, Mahahatthipadopama Sutta - Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's Footprint). ***** This brief extract is followed by several pages of detail about the four great elements. Sarah p.s thx for keeping Rob M in order w/the trimming.....lots of brownie pts;-) ==================================================== 16880 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:25pm Subject: Nevermind Hello All, Okay, never mind, forget it. I am not going to write anything about Abhidhammic Rupa to post to this group. I haven't even posted and I am already getting arguments against my `assumed' points (which are way off-base btw). I am sitting here in my armchair, while beside me is a stack of index cards of quotations, pages of ideas on a legal pad, and a semi-complete outline…but I am going to throw it all in the trash. I first wanted to learn for myself what I could garner from the Abhidhamma and I have done that. I have nothing to prove to anyone else and don't care to. I thought that people in this group were interested in alternative opinions and open to them. With argumentation happening before I have even posted, I know that that is not going to happen. Minds are closed and keys are not in sight. No reason to cause problems. I have nothing to prove to others. I study and learn for myself. Metta, James 16881 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "what is awareness. Hi Jon and Nina, I think I know about insight as what you said: "If insight arises, it sees the true nature of the object", but I think I comprehend it only on the intellectual level. Because what is "true" nature? How do I know that is "true" nature been seen and not just some concepts I have learnt from Buddhism and what I interpreted? It seems what we defined as "true" nature has been nature according to the teaching of Buddha, or what we've interpreted from what we read about the teachings of Buddha, or what most people agree to be the interpretation of Buddha's teaching, I don't even want to go on into saying how do we know teachings of Buddha is dhamma. I am constantly reminded about the fable in which five blind persons were told to tell what an elephant was. But as I ponder over my own question again, and reading through your posts, although I have read before what you've said, I feel like I'm reading them for the first time, especially the sentences: "we cannot expect the arising of insight soon... Kusala is kusala it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. Seeing is seeing, (and insight is insight, too) it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. It does not matter which name we give it...Dhammas (and so insights, too) are conditioned and evanescent." And I am beginning to think, "why" did I ask the question, why recognizing insight is so important to me? Maybe here I am again, looking for some type of assurance, that "I" am on the right track. Perhaps here I am again, looking for some type of way to control or to will to have insight, so I can become the "blessed" one. But how easily I become not mindful of anatta. Yes, arising of insight comes naturally when conditioned, so is everything else. "You" cannot will it because there is no "you" to begin with. EVERTHING comes naturally upon proper conditions, constantly. The path to nirvana paved itself naturally upon proper conditions, there is really no "you" walking on it. with metta, Wendy (aka WL) 16882 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:38pm Subject: Re: I am confused Hi He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named (I don't mean Voldemort :-) ), Can I make two requests: 1. Please read Nina's book, "Rupas", before composing your post (as any war strategist will tell you, rule #1 is "Know Thy Enemy") 2. Please structure your post into two parts: a. The first part to show how the Abhidhamma explanation of rupa is inconsistent with the Suttas (I believe that the Abhidhamma embellishes on but does not contradict the Suttas) b. The second part to explain the problems you have with rupa (keeping in mind the Buddha's stated intention of freeeing us from suffering; He was not trying to be a scientist) Metta, Rob M :-) 16883 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:48pm Subject: Re: Nevermind Hi James, I am very keen to read your thoughts on rupa. Like you, I am much more comfortable with the Abhidhamma handling of nama than I am with the Abhidhamma handing of rupa. I want to address this uneasiness by exploring the subject of rupa more deeply. Your prompting is helping me. I am genuinely interested to read your ideas on rupa. If you don't want to post your message on the DSG (I feel that the DSGrs would be the losers if you held back), please email your rupa post to me and we can have an off-line discussion. Metta, Rob M :-) 16884 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 23, Comm Hi James, I think you missed my point, which was if you look for James in feelings or attitudes or anything else you won't find him. Another way to answer your question is that there are no feelings or attitudes in body contemplation (kayanupassana) because body is mentally isolated from the other 3 contemplations. This is a possible opening to the Purification of View (stage 3 in the Path of Purification) which consists of discriminating between mind and body (nama/rupa). This is said to be the initial breakaway from personality view (sakkayaditthi). Larry 16885 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nevermind Hi Rob M & James, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi James, > I am genuinely interested to read your ideas on rupa. If you don't > want to post your message on the DSG (I feel that the DSGrs would be > the losers if you held back), please email your rupa post to me and > we can have an off-line discussion. .... I agree (that we'd be the losers). Pls continue your discussion on list as we'd all like to share and it's bound to be lively and thought-provoking at the very least. I'll even promise not to butt in again or jump gun...;-) Sarah ====== 16886 From: rahula_80 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Translations Hi, Below are some translations of Shakya Aryanatta and me. Please correct them if there is any mistake. If correct, please tell me too. Also, how would you translate it? Patisambhidamagga 1.174 Buddhoti yo so bhagavaa sayambhuu SA : "The Buddha is the Lord, Svabhava(Self-essence) Me : The Buddha is Lord (Blessed), Self-dependent. I am not sure what sayambhu means. Can anyone explain? Theragatha Att. #3.6 t.hitattaa tinno paarangato SA : "To be fixed in the Soul is the other shore, is having gone beyond" Me : By being steady, one reached the other shore (Nibbana), having gone beyond. Mahavagga Att. 2.692 t.hitattaa oghatinnam. SA : "To be fixed in the Soul is to be flood crossed" Me : By being steady, one crossed the flood. Rahula 16887 From: James Mitchell Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nevermind Sarah, Okay, since you have been so generous with me, I will follow your wishes. I will post the first part of my conclusions. And post section by section as they are developed. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16888 From: James Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:37am Subject: Why Rupa is Rubbish-1 Flawed Methodology I think it is better to understand the transient and mind-conditioned state of all matter, than to think that one really knows it and then slap some label on it called `Rupa'; declaring that to do so is recognizing the `label-less' nature of ultimate reality…which is quite humorous really. Aristotle was seen as the ultimate scientific and spiritual authority at one point also because of his 'observation' science. Of course he thought the universe went round the Earth, but it all made perfect 'observable' sense. The Lord Buddha was a true scientist who followed the scientific method. He formed a hypothesis: There must be a way to end suffering. He devised a way of testing it: Sila and Vipassana. He discovered the proof for his hypothesis: The Four Noble Truths. He invited others to test his methodology and conclusions. The Abhidhamma doesn't do this. From untestable, undescribed observation, it then reaches a hypothesis of the nature of ultimate and conventional reality. It doesn't invite others to test this theory because it doesn't give the method by which it was reached. It calls for acceptance on blind faith that it is the work of Lord Buddha. This method is flawed and is the same method used by Aristotle. 16889 From: proctermail Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 7:13am Subject: Slugs Hi Christine, Thanks to that which was below (i've prompted to cut tails but thought it best to leave the below so that you knew what I was referring to.. it actually quite helped - thanks, though not sure i'm going to encourage them it did provide a good biology lesson tp --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Tom, Sarah and All, > > I think an alternative strategy may be suggested in this > article. :) > Employ the slugs and provide them with comfortable living > quarters. :) And Sarah, I think you once politely expressed grave > doubts about my 'cockroach eating' gecko.... Truth will out > eventually! :) I feel validated and justified. :) (I think this might > be a bit long, but it's a one-off). > metta, > Christine > > 16890 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:05am Subject: Kammic Weight of Cittas Hi All, I suspect that: - mahakusala has greater kammic weight than dosa-mula - dosa-mula has greater kammic weight than lobha-mula - loba-mula has greater kammic weight than moha-mula For mahakusala cittas: - I suspect that unprompted has greater kammic weight than prompted - I suspect that associated with wisdom has greater kammic weight than not associated with wisdom - I suspect that pleasant feeling has greater kammic weight than indifferent feeling For dosa-mula cittas: - I suspect that unprompted has greater kammic weight than prompted For lobha-mula cittas: - I suspect that unprompted has greater kammic weight than prompted - I suspect that associated with wrong view has greater kammic weight than not associated with wrong view - I suspect that pleasant feeling has greater kammic weight than indifferent feeling For moha-mula cittas: - I suspect that doubt has greater kammic weight than restlessness All of these "suspicions" above are based on rumours and assumptions. Can anybody confirm or deny the truth of these suspicions (references would be appreciated)? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16891 From: proctermail Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:27am Subject: Teachings and mosquitos Hi Sarah/ Group, I am responding to a post of yours that contained the following amongst other things that I have had thoughts and questions about... ''I think the essence of my concern is this: I believed there was only one source of correct original Teachings - the Buddha. That these teachings are precious, not easily come by. I believed that the suttas were accepted universally as undeniable Word of the Buddha, concise and often packed with meaning...'' this also reffered to what 'really' happened in a car crash.. I was the driver in a multiple car crash and would tell you if asked what my insurance company wanted to hear - I was hit from behind and then hit the car infront (put simply) - this is what i believe happened but i don't know whether what i believe and what actually happened are the same - in effect i constructed the memory from events that had happened... this is an age old problem of historical sources but in this case this leads onto a question - how much would you have to read in order to say you were buddhist/wise/? - I could imagine a student asking that very same question - if I were asked I would argue nothing. how big would a book have to be to contain the teachings/path to enlightenment. if the buddha had wanted us to learn his teachings as taught surely he would have had the insite to write them down or certainly would have known that the detail would become unclear or lost completely. my argument being that it isn't the actual teachings of the buddha that are important it is more the sense contained therin. i agree that the sense could also be lost over time, but if too much time is spent on reading the words of the texts and arguing their validity then the sense may be lost greater (grammar!). the mosquito provides a good example : my tactic is to blow them away and i haven't been bitten for ages but i do have to stop myself being violent towards them, however through the passage of time this more than likely will become more conditioned/2nd nature - the texts could be full of examples like this or questions like this and you would become snowed under.... the sense of the texts/teachings being that overall there is a certain way to live your life wherbye things like blowing the mosquitos away will become second nature hence permanently rather than temporarily removing the wait from your back... i guess the more is read the more situations will be found in which to apply what has been read hense the obtainment of the wisdom etc. but cannot some of this be self taught through little riddles and dilemmas as the buddha must have done... thanks for your time 16892 From: proctermail Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:58am Subject: Selfishness/Jonothan Hello Jonothan My response seems to have been slower than your pickup, but all in fits and starts eh? I qoute... > As far as selfish motives are concerned, these are an inherent aspect > of our lives. Like it or not, the intrinsic nature of us all is > 'unwholesome' and tending to become more so, ... are you implying that modern capitalist society seems breed selfishness? this is something i believe and was made into a seroius argument by Weber in 'Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism' i take your point about little animals that are inevitably going to get caught unknowingly under our feet...i guess its more about being aware. not going to make this a long one as i have gone overboard to Sarah and quite fancy reading some of the others - the more you write the more replies you get - i guess you've realised that! tp 16893 From: proctermail Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: "what is awareness. Hi I have briefly and prob quite naively followed the line that follows from below.. i read once somewhere that insight is like having a great burden removed from your back - I see that the discussion refers to a moment of insight not being attained suddenly but as a voyage - i would like to just throw in the open the possibility that the entire burden could be removed temporarily/fleetingly and then return but shows an indication of the path which is to gradually shed the baggage and know what is being aimed for. could someone know what enlightenment/to have insight was like but not know how to get there? (please forgive me if this is an unrelated question but seems to fit in my understanding of things) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and WL > Another perplexed being coming in. how could it be otherwise: can we count 16894 From: James Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:55am Subject: Why Rupa is Rubbish-2 Incomplete Ultimate Reality In my search for the authorship of the Abhidhamma, I discovered this story about its origination: We come now to one of the most important contributions made by the Venerable Sariputta to Buddhist teaching. According to tradition (e.g., in the Atthasalini), the Buddha preached the Abhidhamma in the Tavatimsa heaven to his mother, Queen Maya, who had been reborn as deva in that world. He did this for three months, and when returning daily to earth for his meals, he gave to the Venerable Sariputta the "method" (naya) of that portion of Abhidhamma he had preached. The Atthasalini says; "Thus the giving of the method was to the Chief Disciple, who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. To the Elder the doctrine taught by the Blessed One in hundreds and thousands of methods became very clear." Thereafter, the Elder passed on what he had learned to his five hundred disciples. Further it is said: "The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book (Patthana) was also determined by him. In this way the Elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say this story is completely true. It is the only source of authorship I have found for the Abhidhamma. However, if this story is true, than the Abhidhammic `Rupa' is incomplete. It doesn't explain the `Rupa' of the Deva Realm. The Buddha did teach that Deva Realms are very different from our realms in consciousness and makeup. Why would the Buddha teach a cosmology based on human existence to devas? Why doesn't the Abhidhamma include the mental and physical factors of the deva realms? It proclaims to be `ultimate' reality. This reality should include the reality of deva and hell realms, but it doesn't. It is all based on human observation of matter in human realms and human mind states. Something is very incongruous there. It seems that the `Rupa' of the Abhidhamma is incomplete and far from 'Ultimate'. 16895 From: proctermail Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 10:14am Subject: Realities/Rupa Hi James, Have read a number of your threads and thoughts of the last few days. My buddhist language / knowledge is not good . Could you possibly give me a paragraph of your time to briefly describe the rupa / reality /abhidhamma relation as you see it so that i can follow your propositions. i have an interest in reality as we perceive it and had an interesting conversation with sarah about it a couple of years ago ( not in dsg though). thank you tp 16896 From: James Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:29am Subject: Re: Realities/Rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi James, > > Have read a number of your threads and thoughts of the last few days. > My buddhist language / knowledge is not good . Could you possibly give > me a paragraph of your time to briefly describe the rupa / reality > /abhidhamma relation as you see it so that i can follow your > propositions. i have an interest in reality as we perceive it and had > an interesting conversation with sarah about it a couple of years ago > ( not in dsg though). > > thank you > > tp Hi TP This is what www.accesstoinsight.org states to answer this question: "In Abhidhamma philosophy the familiar psycho-physical universe (our world of "trees" and "rocks," "I" and "you") is reduced to a complex -- but comprehensible -- web of impersonal phenomena arising and passing at an inconceivably rapid pace from moment to moment, according to clearly-defined natural laws." The main book is described as such: Dhammasangani ("Enumeration of Phenomena"). This book enumerates all the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities) to be found in the world. According to one such enumeration these amount to: *52 cetasikas (mental factors), which, arising together in various combination, give rise to any one of... *...89 different possible cittas (states of consciousness) *4 primary physical elements, and 23 physical phenomena derived from them *Nibbana My sticking point is the 4 primary physical elements, and 23 physical phenomena derived from them. The Abhidhamma asserts that these physical phenomena are 'ultimate' and separate from the observer. That they are natural qualities of matter which are universal. I posit that this assertion has no basis in scientific proof. If the Abhidhamma said that these were 'convenient' realities for the sake of wisdom (detachment from mental constructs), I would have not problem with that. But the assertion is that these are scientific, ultimate realities. I intend to show how these are no such thing. Stay tuned for more posts. Metta, James 16897 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:16pm Subject: Re: Kammic Weight of Cittas Hi RobM, Interesting suspicions. :) I don't think I'll be much help (hopefully others will), but I wonder what do you mean by greater kammic weight? Do you mean 'likely to come to fruition first'? Or 'has worse/better results' than similar intentions. I haven't read recently the Useful Posts on Kamma - there is likely to be reference to your question there. Ch. V p.200 ff of 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (ed. Bodhi) Kamma is interesting. And here is excerpts from Nyanatiloka's definition and explanation: "karma (Sanskrit), Páli: kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetaná) and their concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. <<>> With regard to the time of the taking place of the karma-result (vipáka), one distinguishes, as mentioned above, 3 kinds of karma: 1. karma ripening during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya kamma); 2. karma ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma); 3. karma ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya-kamma). <<>> With regard to the priority of their result one distinguishes: 1. weighty karma (garuka-kamma), 2. habitual karma (ácinnaka- or bahula-kamma), 3. death-proximate karma (maranásanna-kamma), 4. stored-up karma (katattá-kamma). (1, 2) The weighty (garuka) and the habitual (bahula) wholesome or unwholesome karma are ripening earlier than the light and rarely performed karma. (3) The death-proximate (maranásanna) karma - i.e. the wholesome or unwholesome volition present immediately before death, which often may be the reflex of some previously performed good or evil action (kamma), or of a sign of it (kamma-nimitta), or of a sign of the future existence (gati-nimitta) - produces rebirth. (4) In the absence of any of these three actions at the moment before death, the stored-up (katattá) karma will produce rebirth. <<>> I have also found "Good, Evil and Beyond: Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching" by P.A. Payutto to be helpful http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/kamma.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I suspect that: 16898 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:33pm Subject: Re: Realities/Rupa James, :) Can we have an agreement that you only make stimulating and provocative posts on weekends or Fridays (Oz time)? :) I'm almost late for work because of considering your posts one and two.:) I'll have to print them off read in the lunch break. Hope someone has some things for you to consider by the time I get home. Have you had a chance to read the Useful Posts on Abhidhamma - its origins; Abhidhamma and Right Understanding; Namas and Rupas; Rupa (23 posts!) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I always find it leads to a more productive discussion if all concerned have a more rounded idea of each others points of view. It leads to a more fruitful and respectful discussion and has a better chance of bringing what, at first, seems widely differing opinions closer together and promoting Right Understanding. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" 16899 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:04pm Subject: Re: Kammic Weight of Cittas Good Morning Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I wonder what do you mean by greater > kammic weight? Do you mean 'likely to come to fruition first'? > Or 'has > worse/better results' than similar intentions. I haven't read A "weighty" kamma will have a stronger impact when it does ripen. It is the strength of the cetasika cetana which arises with the citta. We recently discussed kammic weight with respect to killing of large vs. small animals; killing of large animals has greater kammic weight (i.e. cetana is stronger) because it is more difficult to kill a large animal. This issue arose because of a comment made by Dr. Mon during his Abhidhamma course (I have just completed the second day of the nine day course). Dr. Mon mentioned that unprompted cittas (asankharika) had greater kammic weight than prompted cittas (sasankharika) because they were more volitionally active; hence the root of sankhara. In this case sankhara refers to cetana not to a collection of cetasikas (sankhara is used as in the paticcasamuppada rather than as in the five aggregates). I had heard this before but couldn't find a reference for it. It started me thinking about the derivation of "asankharika". My suspecion is that the sankhara referenced in this word is the cetana in past conditioning states. In other words, if the past conditioning states had no kammic impact ("a" + "sankhara"), then the cetana in this citta must be very strong for it to arise and therefore the unprompted citta has stronger cetana. In simple words, if my son cleans his room spontaneously, it is of greater kammic weight than if he cleans his room after an hour of nagging. This is because, in the first case, the volition (cetana / sankhara) came from him; it was unprompted by the volition in my nagging. My mind then moved onto kammic weight of "with wrong view" and "without wrong view" and I remembered an exchange from Milinda where Nagasena said that with wrong view was weightier just as if a person knowingly grabs a hot iron bar, he will be burned worse than a person who accidently grabe a hot iron bar. Again, I could not find the reference and it frustrated me. I then theorized that since 95%+ of our daily cittas were akusala, yet we still had many good things happen to us, then kusala must be weightier than akusala. Again, I couldn't find a reference to support my theory. At the end, I decided to ask the DSG for help. Metta, Rob M :-) 16900 From: azita gill Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > Hi James, > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:54 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of > parinibbana > > > Dear WL, > > [snip] > . Buddhism is best suited for those who > can appreciate the > journey rather than the destination. > dear James, I really like the above comment, it is one that I have written in my book, for a reminder when I lose patience and courage. Thanks. Azita. > But, in regards to what you say about the nature of > nibbana, [snip] . As non-arahants who practice > Buddhism (I`m sure > there is some impressive Pali word to insert here, > but darned if I > know it.), we know that level of suffering only a > little bit, and > usually not at all, actually. > > Metta, James > > with regard to Nibbana, I believe that unless we know the present moment, the nama/rupa of NOW, Nibbana will only ever be a concept. Remember the 3rd Noble Truth: < 'and what, monks, is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering? It is the complete fading away and cessation of this very craving , its giving up and reliquishment, the liberation and detachment from it.' < I believe that this craving can never be known for what it is, anicca, anatta and dukkha, until the wisdom has been developed to the degree that panna[wisdom] knows the true meaning of these 3 words. All phenomena are anicca, anatta and dukkha, totally impermanent; not me, not mine, not myself; and totally unsatisfactory. We also need to know what this phenomena is: seeing [nama] is phenomena, visible object [rupa] is phenomena, craving [tanha] is phenemona. I believe this is the 'journey' this getting to know the phenomena of this present moment; a long, arduous journey, one to be taken with lots of patience and courage - easy to write about, hard,hard,hard [for me,anyway] to do. < As for the impressive Pali word, I found these words: < sabbe puggalaa - all persons or individuals. < sabbe anariyaa - all ignoble persons, those who < have not yet attained the state of ariya > sabbe manussaa - all humans. > maybe none of these fit!! < Cheers Azita. > 16901 From: James Mitchell Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Realities/Rupa --- christine_forsyth wrote: > James, > > :) Can we have an agreement that you only make > stimulating and > provocative posts on weekends or Fridays (Oz time)? > :) I'm almost > late for work because of considering your posts one > and two.:) (Oops...sorry. Didn't mean to make you late for work. Also, I am not sure if I could be the one to judge if my posts are stimulating and provocative. I am just being myself.) I'll > have to print them off read in the lunch break. > Hope someone has > some things for you to consider by the time I get > home. (Nope, everyone is pretty quiet so far. Either they are speechless, bored, or afraid of setting me off..:-) Have you had > a chance to read the Useful Posts on Abhidhamma - > its origins; > Abhidhamma and Right Understanding; Namas and Rupas; > Rupa (23 posts!) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > I always find it leads to a more productive > discussion if all > concerned have a more rounded idea of each others > points of view. It > leads to a more fruitful and respectful discussion > and has a better > chance of bringing what, at first, seems widely > differing opinions > closer together and promoting Right Understanding. (I read all 23 of them. None of them say anything even close to what I am suggesting. But I did come to a rude awakening. I saw a link to a www.abhidhamma.org, I checked it out and saw 'Internet Discussion Group' and that link lead to this group! Eah Gads!! I had no idea this was an Abhidhamma Discussion Group. It doesn't say that in the group description at all! Now I feel embarrassed that I have even broached this subject in this group. That is not my usual way of doing things. It is like me being in a Christian group posting about the non-existence of God. That is just plain tacky. I don't think I should post on this subject anymore in this group. I don't mean to offend deep held beliefs held by its members.) > > metta, > Christine ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16902 From: Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:58pm Subject: Way 24, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on, "contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it)..." Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. [Tika] "Clearly comprehending" = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. [T] "Rightly" = Correctly [aviparitam]. [T] "Entirely" = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. [T] "Equally" = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] [T] "Necessary in all circumstances" = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness. To point out the things by the influence of which the meditation of the yogi prospers, is the purpose of the words, "Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful." To the non-ardent state of mind there is the obstacle of mental lassitude. The state of mind that is not clearly comprehending commits blunders of judgment in the business of choosing the right means and in avoiding the wrong. The state of mind which is inattentive -- the mental state of absence of mindfulness -- is incapable of laying hold of the right means and of rejecting the wrong means. When the yogi is not ardent, not clearly comprehending, and not mindful, he does not succeed in accomplishing his object. [T] "Mental lassitude" = Inward stagnation. Indolence is the meaning. [T] "Right means" = Things like the purification of virtue [sila visodhana]. 17. Samyutta Nikaya, v. page 115, P.T.S. Edition 16903 From: James Mitchell Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Realities/Rupa --- James Mitchell wrote: I > don't think I should post on this subject anymore in > this group. I don't mean to offend deep held > beliefs > held by its members.) No, I have posted thus far, and requested to by the moderator, I should continue until I am done. Only a few more posts anyway. I just hope that everyone realizes that I didn't know this was an abhidhamma group. ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16904 From: James Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:41pm Subject: Re: Why Rupa is Rubbish-2 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Incomplete Ultimate Reality > > In my search for the authorship of the Abhidhamma, I discovered this > story about its origination: I want to add something I read in the archives. A member wrote: "Saying something is the Buddha's teaching when it is not is a grave kamma; why wasn't such a huge lie admonished by other monks." I think this kinda thinking is rather naive of human nature. People will say or do anything when necessary, when put under pressure, and then convince themselves that they didn't lie. Monks are human also. And consider this quote about the punishement a monk would receive for speaking against the Abhidhamma (Now, why did there even need to be such punishments? Smacks of the Inquisition.): We read further in the Atthasalini that "He who prohibits (the teaching of ) abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher's knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be excommunicated, or admonished (see Vin11,7) or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of food". Hey, if I was facing all of that, I might lie through my teeth also. Metta, James 16905 From: robmoult Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:34pm Subject: Vipaka Cittas Hi All, There are two types of vipaka cittas; akusala vipaka cittas and kusala vipaka cittas. They are identical, except that they spring from different conditions (akusala cittas vs. kusala cittas). However, we also know that there is not one single condition for anything. I take this as meaning that any one vipaka citta can have multiple factors conditioning it, including the accumulated cetana from multiple past javana cittas (some akusala and some kusala). Since for a specific vipaka citta, some of the conditioning javana cittas may have been kusala and some may have been akusala, does it make sense to split the definition of vipaka cittas into two distinct categories? Any comments? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16906 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:43pm Subject: Re: Why Rupa is Rubbish-2 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say this story is completely > true. It is the only source of authorship I have found for the > Abhidhamma. However, if this story is true, than the > Abhidhammic `Rupa' is incomplete. It doesn't explain the `Rupa' of > the Deva Realm. The Buddha did teach that Deva Realms are very > different from our realms in consciousness and makeup. Why would > the Buddha teach a cosmology based on human existence to devas? ________ Dear james, I think you will find that the texts indicate that devas are not so different from us. Some of the pooer people in india or Africa might imagine that the life of the rich person is completly different from theirs . But really it is simply seeing/colour , hearing/sound, thinking , feeling etc. Devas live longer lives than us with more pleasant conditions but ultimately not that much different. They may still listen to Dhamma. Still have wives etc. Robert 16907 From: James Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:09pm Subject: Why Rupa is Rubbish-3 Ultimate Reality The Abhidhamma describes ultimate reality in terms of Rupa (matter) as existing in the basic categories: I. Essential material qualities - the element of extension (10), the element of cohesion (11), the element of heat (12), and the element of motion (13). A. Sensitive material qualities: viz: eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. B. Material objects viz: form, sound, odour, taste, and tangibility - found in the three Essentials excluding the element of cohesion. C. Material qualities of sex, viz: femininity and masculinity. D. Material quality of base, viz: the heart-base (19). E. Material quality of life, viz: vital principle (20), F. Material quality of nutrition, viz: edible food (21). Aristotle, in his book `Metaphysics, described the nature of `ultimate reality' in pretty much the same fashion. However, instead of 'Rupa', Aristotle used the term: `Substance': Substance: (1) Substances are ultimate subjects of predication (hypokeimenon), viz., (i) they cannot be predicated of anything else, and (ii) whatever is predicated of anything must also be predicated of them. (2) Each substance is a this; that is, it is a "one" (a unit of being), distinguishable from other units of beings, and, perhaps also, a particular thing with a location. (3) Each substance is separable, and by this is meant either (i) it can exist apart from other things, or (ii) what it is (its essence) can be understood apart from anything distinct from it Substances are Matter, Form, and Matter/Form Substances include color, heat, sound, taste, and odor; as separate and tangible substances. Obviously, Rupa and Substance are both theories of Metaphisics. Encarta Online Encyclopedia explains Metaphysics, "Metaphysics, branch of philosophy concerned with the nature of ultimate reality… metaphysics was known as the "transphysical science" on the assumption that, by means of it, the scholar philosophically could make the transition from the physical world to a world beyond sense perception." The theory of Rupa was arrived at through simple observation and philosophical pondering, the same as Aristotle did to develop his theory of Substance. Are either of them accurate ways of describing ultimate reality? Not according to modern scientific discoveries. Though the field of quantum physics is changing daily, one supreme model appears to be emerging. Rather than Rupas or Substances composing our universe, Processes are the ultimate reality of our universe. Physics Department, University of Surrey, Guildford GU2 5XH, U.K "Since the failure of both pure corpuscular and pure wave philosophies of nature, process theories assume that only events need to exist in order to have a physics. Starting from an ontology of actual events, a dispositional analysis is shown here to lead to a new idea of substance, that of a `distribution of potentiality or propensity'. This begins to provide a useful foundation for quantum physics. A model is presented to show how the existence of physical substances could be a reasonable consequence of a theory of processes." Kind of mind-boggling really, but I posit that there aren't any Rupas which have the qualities of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta. Ultimate reality is simply: the processes of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta. No Rupa to cling to… Metta, James 16908 From: James Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Re: Why Rupa is Rubbish-2 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear james, > I think you will find that the texts indicate that devas are not so > different from us. Dear Rob, When I read this post, I wasn`t sure if you were correct or not. From memory I thought they were quite different. I haven`t studied the devas that much honestly. That is one area of Buddhism I am still skeptical about, until I `know` it first-hand. But according to the suttas, the devas are quite different in physical makeup and their realms are composed differently. The article "Teacher of the Devas" by Susan Elbaum Jootla http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel414.html#ch2 describes devas as having bodies that emit a bright light when in the dark, like an aura. It also give the following descriptions: "But as the Buddha was a human being, his body required normal food. Thus everyday, in the terrestrial forenoon, he created an image of himself to continue preaching in Tavatimsa, while in his natural body he came to earth to collect almsfood and partake of a meal." "Some devas long to be reborn as human beings because they are aware of the greater possibility of comprehending impermanence, suffering, and non-self on the human plane. There is no real illness on the deva planes. When a deva faces death, his aura begins to fade and dirt appears on his clothes for the first time." This leads me to believe that Rupa in a deva realm would at least be enough different to mention it in the Abhidhamma. But you are correct really, I don't know for sure. It is all pure conjecture on my part. Hey, mentioning devas, wanna see a really cool movie that you can play on your computer that is about devas? It is called Heaven 7, and it is about a deva realm that never receives the teachings of the Buddha. REALLY AWESOME! I found it on the Buddhist Publication Society website mirrored from Sri Lanka. You can download from this link: http://www.metta.lk/special-effects/index.htm Metta, James Some of the pooer people in india or Africa might > imagine that the life of the rich person is completly different from > theirs . But really it is simply seeing/colour , hearing/sound, > thinking , feeling etc. Devas live longer lives than us with more > pleasant conditions but ultimately not that much different. They may > still listen to Dhamma. Still have wives etc. > Robert 16909 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "what is awareness. Dear Wendy, I'm also appeciating your posts very much. --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > And I am beginning to think, "why" did I ask the question, > why recognizing insight is so important to me? Maybe here > I am again, looking for some type of assurance, that > "I" am on the right track. Perhaps here I am again, looking > for some type of way to control or to will to have insight, so I > can become the "blessed" one. But how easily I become not > mindful of anatta. Yes, arising of insight comes naturally when > conditioned, so is everything else. "You" cannot will it because > there is no "you" to begin with. EVERTHING comes naturally > upon proper conditions, constantly. The path to nirvana paved > itself naturally upon proper conditions, there is really no "you" > walking on it. ***** You make some very astute comments in this post and others. It reminded me of a discussion on a tape I was just listening to. There was a discussion about how so often when thre is the 'trying to know' or 'work out' it is the 'self' again. This is why ignorance is the cause of all defilements and the path has to be one of detachment and not attachment. As you mention, all realities are conditioned just as they are. Panna (understanding) cannot know anything without sati which is aware of dhammas. Wholesome states, such as metta, cannot develop by any wanting or wishing, but only by the development of understanding. These phenomena are conditioned, arising and falling away and don't belong to anyone. Without the development of satipatthana, these are bound to be merely words or concepts, because there is no precise unerstanding. So nothing can be done to change what has happened or been conditioned already. What is conditioned may be any nama or rupa. We'd like there to be more understanding, more calm, more wholesome states, but panna can see the attachment at these times when there is the expectation or wishing. Calm or other kinds of kusala may appear by conditions, but the development of insight must be that of detachment that is detached from whether the present reality is metta, dana, concentration, anger or a rupa such as sound or hardness, for example. So, I think one way to see if it really is sati and panna is by whether it really is detached or whether it is attached when it arises. As panna develops, it can see attachment more and more and this will become increasingly subtle. If it's not seen for what it is, there is no way to eliminate it. ….. You and James were having an interesting discussion on metta and nibbana. Recently I also quoted from the commentary to the metta sutta (which I'll requote below). The passage indicates that even if there are conditions for jhana factors to appear, the realities of namas and rupas have to be penetrated and understood with insight and detachment in order for nibbana to be realized. As you suggested, understanding the truth is not synonymous with "seeking 'love and compassion' ". I also liked your example from the film "Matrix" – we have to know what our goal is and expecially whether we are interested in developing detachment or attachment. With many thanks for your inspiring comments, Sarah Quote (in previous post) taken from the commentary to the Metta Sutta in the Minor Readings (Khuddakapatha) ***************************************************** "...And now, since loving kindness in near to (wrong) view of self because it has creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following stanza: ….. ‘But he that traffics not with views (Is virtuous with perfected seeing Till, purged of greed for sense-desires, He will surely come no more to any womb.’ ….. He did this as a preventative against (their straying into) the thicket of (speculative) views (see MNi,8) by showing those bhikkhus how the Noble Plane is reached through making that same loving kindness jhana the basis for insight." ***** Comment: Whatever level of jhana is attained, still the various paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) have to be the object of insight and the development of insight is always the goal. ..... The commentary continues: "The meaning is this. After emerging from the abiding in loving kindness jhana, which was specified thus ‘This is Divine Abiding here, they say’, (he discerns) the (non-material-form ideas there (in that jhana) consisting in thinking(vitakka) and exploring(vicara) and the rest(piti, sukha, cittas’ekaggata), (which he defines as ‘name’(namas), he discerns the ideas of (material) form there, which he defines as ‘form’(rupas).By means of this delimitation of name and form (nama and rupa) ‘he traffics not with views’(di.t.thi.n ca anupagamma), (avoiding that by discerning) in the way stated thus ‘A heap of mere determinations; No creature can be found herein’ (Si,135), till he eventually becomes virtuous (siilavaa) with the kind of virtue that is supramundane since he is now perfected (sampanno) in the right view belonging to the Path of Stream Entry, which is called seeing (dassanena), and which is associated with that supramundane virtue. After that.......he reaches Arahantship and attains extinction." Later we read "There the bhikkhus maintained loving kindness in being, and making that the basis, they established insight (into the three general characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not-self) till all of them reached Arahantship, the highest fruit, in that same Rains, and they were able to hold the Pavarana Ceremony in purity." ***** =================================================== 16910 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Teachings and mosquitos Hi Tom, I was really pleased to see your messages here. I’m sure the post to me is the longest letter I’ve ever received from any of my nephews/nieces;-) --- proctermail wrote: > ''I think the essence of my concern is this: I believed there was > only one source of correct original Teachings - the Buddha. That > these > teachings are precious, not easily come by. I believed that the > suttas were > accepted universally as undeniable Word of the Buddha, concise and > often packed with meaning...'' .... I was a bit puzzled by this as I’m sure it’s not a direct quote of mine (a paraphrase?). It may have been from someone else’s post included in one of mine. Not important, I understand your concerns. ..... Tom, when I read the rest of your post, you had me worried that you’d had another bad car crash -- hopefully this was just an example..... I hope I understand your points. Let me try making a few comments. I don’t think any real wisdom depends on the quantity that one has read. If it is merely intellectual wisdom, it will never lead to the eradication of what we refer to as defilements or to the understanding of the Truths that the Buddha taught. In the same way, referring to oneself as being ‘Buddhist’ or ‘wise’ is pretty meaningless for reasons you suggest. On the other hand, in the Buddhist tradition, amazingly we have a very extensive collection of texts which almost everyone agrees were the word of the Buddha (we’ll leave the more controversial Abhidhamma until I write to James ;-)). During the Buddha’s lifetime and for the immediate period afterwards, these were recited by his main disciples who had far better memories than us, until they were all written down. I think there is very little historical doubt about this. It largely reflected the tradition at the time for transmission of teachings by recitation. I also believe that the reason the Buddha taught for a relatively long period and in such detail was that he knew the benefit and importance for us of hearing many details. He often referred to how ‘profound’ the Teachings are and how those of us on the slow side need to hear many details. Indeed, even his key followers on the very fast track would listen to many, many details in order to help others better as well. I know what you are saying about the ‘sense’ being more important. The difficulty is that we all have a lot of strange ideas and views and hence the ‘sense’ we understand is coloured by these same views. We could both listen to a short, pithy verse and ‘hear’ it in a very different way. In fact, we find on DSG, that we can read a detailed sutta and even accompanying commentary notes and still come out with a different ‘sense’ from one another. Rather than just say ‘my sense must be right’, we try to look at other verses, consider comments in the original language, Pali and discuss how we reached this ‘sense’. Hopefully we all learn a little in the process. I’m glad to hear that you are blowing the mosquitos away, Tom. As you suggest, after reading and considering a little about what is ‘right’ and what wisdom is, it can be applied in daily life. Habits change and one learns a little more about what is skilful or unskilful. Each time there is a dilemma, how we respond will depend on what we’ve considered and many other factors at the time. As we saw in your gardening example before, sometimes it’s not quite as simple as seems apparent, however, because understanding the mind is never simple. Furthermore, without a very detailed and developed understanding of concepts and realities and the distinction between them, there is bound to be the idea of self, of ‘Tom’ and ‘Sarah’ of ‘beings’ and ‘insects’. The real ‘brilliance’ of the Buddha’s Teachings is the truth about anatta (non-self). Not sure if I’m on track here, pls let me know and feel very free to disagree with anything I or anyone else says. This is probably the longest letter I’ve ever written to a nephew/niece too;-) Sarah ===== 16911 From: rahula_80 Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:22pm Subject: Citta and Vinnana Hi, I am still confused about the usage of citta and vinnana. The Buddha said that the khandhas (including vinnana) is to be abandoned. See Pahanaya Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-024.html Also in the Mara Sutta, the Buddha said vinnana is mara. In certain suttas,( eg. Nakulapita Sutta) the Buddha says ".... afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind (citta)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-001.html And Shakya Aryanatta adds to my confusion: THE CITTA MN 1.197 This Brahma life is lived for the sole preeminent purpose of emancipation of the consciousness (CITTA) alone, which is the quintessential final core. "citta is originally pure" MN 1.36 SN 3.61 "The Aryan Eightfold Path is making cessation of Vinnana (and other khandas) SN 3.234 The Aggregate Sutra. At Savatthi "Followers, the desire and lust for formations is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for feelings is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for cognition is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for experiences is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for vinnana is a defilement of the citta. But, followers, when one abandons the defilements of the citta regarding these five stations (aggregates), then ones citta inclines towards renunciation. Ones citta is made pliable and firm in renunciation by direct gnosis. 16912 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Realities/Rupa Hi James, --- James Mitchell wrote: > > (Nope, everyone is pretty quiet so far. Either they > are speechless, bored, or afraid of setting me > off..:-) .... Maybe they’re just running behind you, having trouble keeping up with your action-packed pace;-) ..... > I saw a link to a > www.abhidhamma.org, I checked it out and saw 'Internet > Discussion Group' and that link lead to this group! > Eah Gads!! I had no idea this was an Abhidhamma > Discussion Group. It doesn't say that in the group > description at all! Now I feel embarrassed that I > have even broached this subject in this group. That > is not my usual way of doing things. It is like me > being in a Christian group posting about the > non-existence of God. That is just plain tacky. I > don't think I should post on this subject anymore in > this group. I don't mean to offend deep held beliefs > held by its members.) .... I see from your next post that you soon talked your way out of this little setback on your middle abhidhamma path;-) Don’t worry, none of us are praying to rupas here and we’re all very used to have any idea or shred of wisdom dissected and analysed in many novel ways;-)Helps keep us all awake and smiling. Actually, it all just depends on how you define ‘abhidhamma’.....but I’ll leave that to Christine (to whom your post was addressed) and Rob K (who runs the website) for now. If you stick to the group description meanwhile, you can’t go wrong. I’d like to make a request as well. You’ve been researching the origins of the Abhidhamma. I would suggest its origins are firmly rooted in texts rehearsed at the First Council. As you also have an interest in the vinaya, I’d particularly like you to read this series of posts I wrote, based on the commentary introduction to the Vinaya texts which discuss the origins of the Abhidhamma and commentaries: ***** Vinaya Commentary - Baahiranidaana 9464, 9495, 9673, 9810, 9961,10143, 10310, 12658 ***** I’ll be very glad to hear your feedback when you’ve read them. Sarah ===== 16913 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana Hi Christine (& RobK), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I have also > been reading excerpts from the Udana at Access to Insight - in > particular, Udana VIII.1 - 4 Total Unbinding/Parinibbana VIII. > Pataligamiyavagga > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ > > In 8.2 I am unsure of the meaning of 'uninclined' and 'unaffected' - > would it be 'unconditioned' or 'uncaused' or "without desire' or > something else entirely? Would 'one who knows and sees' mean an > enlightened being, and would 'nothing' mean 'no suffering'? .... "Without desire" for 'uninclined', referring to nibbana is pretty good and also your other interpretations: ..... > John D. Ireland's translation is: > "The uninclined is hard to see, > The truth is not easy to see; > Craving is penetrated by one who knows, > For one who sees there is nothing." > > Thanissaro Bhikkhus's translantion is: > "It's hard to see the unaffected, > for the truth isn't easily seen. > Craving is pierced > in one who knows; > For one who sees, > there is nothing." > -------------------------------------- Masefield's translation is: "Hard to see is that known as the uninclined, for truth is not easy to see. Pierced is craving for the one who knows; for the one who beholds there is no holding". ***** Commentary notes for the first part only: " 'Hard to see’(duddasa.m): hard to see in that it is not capable of being beheld by those by whom the ingredients of knowledge have not been heaped up, on account of the profundity of its own nature and on account of the fact that is own nature is one that is extremely abstruse and subtle. For this is said: “For you, Magandiya, do not have that ariyan eye(of insight) by means of which (ariyan eye) you might know health,(as well as) behold nibbana, in addition to which there is also said “This, too, is a matter hard to see, that is to say, the calming of all formations” and so on. The ‘uninclined’ (anata.m): craving is spoken of as “the inclined” (nataa), on account of its inclining (namanato) to objects such as visible forms and so on and to becomings such as those in (the spehere of) sense-desires and so forth, and, since it occurs in a manner that slopes thereto (tanninna), on account of beings (themselves) inclining (namanato) thereto; since this “inclined” is not (na nataa) here, it is “the uninclined” (nata.m) meaning nibbana........ ***** Hope this helps, Sarah ===== 16914 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 0:45am Subject: Rupas Hi James, I hope that you won't be upset if I tell you that I agree with much of what you have said thus far :-) . I am a bit strapped for time at the present. Please let me know when your rupa posts are complete so that I can craft a comprehensive reply. Metta, Rob M :-) 16915 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 0:52am Subject: Re: Citta and Vinnana --- Dear Rahula, Is Shakya Aryanatta clear that vinnana and citta are synonyms? He might not realise this. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > I am still confused about the usage of citta and vinnana. > The Buddha said that the khandhas (including vinnana) is to be > abandoned. See Pahanaya Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-024.html > > Also in the Mara Sutta, the Buddha said vinnana is mara. > > In certain suttas,( eg. Nakulapita Sutta) the Buddha says ".... > afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind (citta)." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-001.html > > And adds to my confusion: > > THE CITTA > MN 1.197 This Brahma life is lived for the sole preeminent purpose of > emancipation of the consciousness (CITTA) alone, which is the > quintessential final core. > > "citta is originally pure" MN 1.36 > > SN 3.61 "The Aryan Eightfold Path is making cessation of Vinnana (and > other khandas) > > SN 3.234 The Aggregate Sutra. At Savatthi "Followers, the desire and > lust for formations is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust > for feelings is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for > cognition is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for > experiences is a defilement of the citta, the desire and lust for > vinnana is a defilement of the citta. But, followers, when one > abandons the defilements of the citta regarding these five stations > (aggregates), then ones citta inclines towards renunciation. Ones > citta is made pliable and firm in renunciation by direct gnosis. 16916 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Nina, Suan, Christine, Howard & All, I’ve appreciated the discussions on this difficult point which recurs regularly on DSG. I’d like to add a few more comments to all your helpful ones (but nothing new): Suan wrote: > > "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in > > Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta > > Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. ..... Christine wrote: >The quote "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." was Verse 25 is in MN49 hard copy trans. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi "Middle Length discourses of the Buddha" (Wisdom, 1995) top of page 428. ..... > n.513 “MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized". This is obviously a contrived derivation, since nowhere in the Canon is Nibbana ever described as consciousness. <<{As you also said Suan, "It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts.}>> MA offers three explanations of the phrase subbato pabham: (1) completely possessed of splendour (pabha); (2) possessing being (pabhutam) everywhere; and (3) a ford (pahham) accessible from all sides, i.e. through any of the thirty-eight meditation objects. Only the first of these seems to have any linguistic legitimacy...” ***** ..... In an earlier post I wrote: “The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be understood as 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali com. as Jim explained to me. As I mentioned, B.Bodhi also added in his notes (513). , "MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized" '. ----------------------------------- Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)'” ***** In the note Christine supplied from B.Bodhi’s MN, there was the suggestion that the commentary suggestion of nibbana here is ‘obviously a contrived derivation’ and Howard makes the valid point that it is not used elsewhere with this meaning. On the other hand: 1. It makes perfect sense to some of us and conforms with the meaning of other suttas and parts of the Tipitaka as we understand it, though it’s strange perhaps that the phrase is not used in other places . 2. It conforms with other passages, such as the ones from the Udana and Itivuttaka where nibbana is specifically mentioned in the commentaries referring to similar contexts. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15418 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16744 3. Perhaps commentaries should be given the respect by us that they’ve been given by the Sangha through the ages in terms of representing the truth of the Teachings and should not be dismissed lightly when they are not readily understood by us. 4.The suggestion by B.Thanissaro that though it says the aggregate of consciousness “includes all consciousness, ‘past, present, or future..near or far’”, this particular consciousness is not included, makes little sense to me and is not supported by either the commentaries of the Tipitaka itself imho. 5. B.Bodhi quotes the MA (commentary) as offering 3 explanations of the phrase subbato pabham. He suggests only the first one (“completely possessed of splendour (pabha)) as having any ‘linguistic legitimacy’. In terms of meaning, they would all seem appropriate to me and like the discussion on ekayaana, they may all be legitimate, I would think (though I can’t comment on the Pali). Walshe suggests ‘lucid in every respect’ for sabbato pabham. He then compares the phrase to our DSG favourite one in AN on ‘luminous mind’, but this would be missing the point and meaning of both, as I understand. 6. Walshe also refers to Nanananda’s ‘Concept and Reality’ in which it explains apparently that ‘the four great elements do not find a footing - and that ‘Name-and-Form’ (comprehending them) can be cut off completely - in that ‘anidassana-vinnana’ (the ‘non-manifestive consciousness’) of the Arahant, by the cessation of his normal consciousness which rests on the data of sense-experience...” This clearly doesn’t accord with the abhidhamma or with any parts of the Tipitaka, such as the Udana (see link above) as I understand. Sarah ===== 16917 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 4:32am Subject: back on line Dear Friends, I'm back on line after almost a three month break. I'm working my way thru some of the posts that were written and there are some very interesting streams of thought. Please forgive me if I jump in and ask questions or comment on something that has already been discussed. One of the places that I visited while off line was the foundation in Bangkok. I want to thank Khun Sujin, Robert K, Betty, Num, Sukin, Ivan and El for the lively discussions. Special thanks to Robert K. for taking us all out for a delicious lunch. I was inspired to meet all of you. Thank you for your kindness and encouragement - I really appreciate it. With metta, Shakti 16918 From: Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta and Vinnana Hi, Rahula - In a message dated 11/13/02 2:21:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, rahula_80@y... writes: > > Hi, > > I am still confused about the usage of citta and vinnana. > The Buddha said that the khandhas (including vinnana) is to be > abandoned. See Pahanaya Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-024.html > ========================== The note provided with this sutta is the following: *************************** Note 1. To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things. *************************** It seems to me that when there is no longer desire for any dhammas, nor aversion to any dhammas, nor attachment to any dhammas, then, specific pragmatic issues aside, whether dhammas are present or absent is of no ultimate concern, for all is "fine" just as it is, and what was needed to be done has been done. At this stage, if there is experience, that is fine; if there is no experience, that is fine. Nothing is needed, and total freedom is at hand. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16919 From: James Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Realities/Rupa --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > I'd like to make a request as well. You've been researching the origins of > the Abhidhamma. I would suggest its origins are firmly rooted in texts > rehearsed at the First Council. As you also have an interest in the > vinaya, I'd particularly like you to read this series of posts I wrote, > based on the commentary introduction to the Vinaya texts which discuss the > origins of the Abhidhamma and commentaries: > ***** > Vinaya Commentary - Baahiranidaana > > 9464, 9495, 9673, 9810, 9961,10143, 10310, 12658 > ***** > I'll be very glad to hear your feedback when you've read them. > > Sarah > ===== Sarah, Geez, this is turning into quite a project for me; but it allows me to sort out my thoughts. Okay, when I am finished with my posts I will go back and read that scholarly research. I don't think it is real pressing for me to do that now. I am going to give you a little bit of feedback even before I have read them (turnabout is fair play *wink, wink* :-) j/k) Admit is Sarah, there is scholarly evidence for and against the Abhidhamma being recorded at the First Counsels. In that case, I don't think it is productive to have a situation of dueling research. I could also present research that states it wasn't recorded at the First Counsels. Where is that gonna get us? One must use one's own mind to deduce the truth. One: The bhikkhu's at the First Counsel were very meticulous in every detail of the dhamma teachings. They ALWAYS attributed what was said, to whom it was said, and where it was said. They obviously considered these details important to know, now just 'nice' to know. But the Abhidhamma, from what I am reading since I cannot find a translation, doesn't contain this information, at least textually. That tells me pretty clearly it was not written/recorded at the First Counsel or it would have been done in the same style of the other suttas. As someone who studies language, I know that this is very important to consider when determining authorship and authenticity. I have caught many plagarists in my classes using this method of deduction. Two: If there is anything to really smile at, it is the story behind the origin of the Abhidhamma, even it it was recorded at the First Counsel or not. Just imagine the scenario: The Buddha is in a heaven realm teaching the Abhidhamma for three months around the clock because the devas are the only ones who can sit still that long without food or bathroom breaks. Then he comes back to earth and teaches what he has taught in the heaven realm, or the 'method' of it (stated differently depending on source) to his Chief Disciple Venerable Sariputta, only during his lunch breaks! No one else is present to witness these teachings, he never discusses them again (vague references, open to interpretation, in a handful of suttas, hardly qualify as him teaching them again), and Sariputta then records what the Lord Buddha taught him in secret (something the Buddha spoke against, and this would be the only time he did it) and teaches it to his 500 disciples after the Buddha's death. This story is quite implausible. But I will look at what your research says and get back to you. I am currently teaching and I write these posts in the morning before going to work, during my lunch break since I don't eat, and after I work out in the evening. Though some may think it, I don't live by the computer :-). And these are just friendly posts, in reference to Rob's post, I am not trying to `score' with `wins', I am just thinking out loud (now you know how I think…kinda scary isn't it??? LOL!). I am simply expressing `doubt', not `proof'. I am open to the possibility I could be wrong as long as the `correct teaching' is shown to me in linear logic, not circular thinking and reliance on faith of scripture. Metta, James 16920 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18, Comm. Larry (with apologies for being so far behind) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: <> If I understand what you say here, Larry, your reading of the passage from Way 16 (see below) would be something like: "A person who falls into the category of a 'dull witted jhana practitioner' should practice mindfulness of the body in preference to any other form of mindfulness, and a person who is a 'keen-witted jhana practitioner' should practice mindfulness of feeling in preference to any other form of mindfulness." I think this would be reading into the passage quite a lot that is not actually there. Furthermore, the explanation as to why there is a difference between the 2 kinds of person, as given in the Way 18 passage, does not seem to fit such an interpretation. <> I have not seen anything so far to support this proposition. Do you have any particular passage(s) in mind here? Jon ======================== Way 16: For the dull-witted man, pursuing quietude, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, body-contemplation, is the Path to Purity, by reason of the feasibility of getting at the mental reflex; for the keen-witted of this type, because he does not continue to stay in the coarse, the second Arousing of Mindfulness, the contemplation on feeling, is the Path to Purity. Way 18: [T] "Because he does not continue to stay in the coarse": The keen-witted man pursuing the path of quietude lays hold of the gross subject of meditation, but he does not stay in that. He lays hold of feeling, the subtle subject of meditation, by way of the factors of absorption [jhana] after attaining to and emerging from the absorption reached with the material body as subject. 16921 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, <> You have an interesting perspective on things, Larry. This is the first time I've heard of any supposed similarity between A. Sujin's approach and 'formless meditation'! <> You ask what we should do to understand the 4 satipatthanas. I believe this is about the most difficult question in the whole world to answer. We should not be surprised that a ready answer does not leap out at us from the pages of the sutta/commentaries. As far as I can see, there's nothing to actually be done at this (or any) particular moment. The development of the 4 satipatthanas is the development of understanding of the presently arising reality. So the more we know about understanding, what it is, what its object may be, what are the conditions for its arising, what are the indicators of its having arisen, and so on, the better our chances of developing it at some (other) time. The development of understanding occurs when existing accumulated understanding arises (if you think about it, it cannot occur any other way). Existing accumulated understanding, like any other accumulated tendency, arises when there are conditions for it to do so. Fortunately for us, there are detailed descriptions in the Buddha's own words throughout the suttas of what those conditions are. The Satipatthana Sutta is an affirmation of the fact that understanding if developed can arise at any time and take as its object any of the basic phenomena (dhammas) that make up the world of the present moment as we know it. Jon 16922 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:17am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Sarah, Nina, Christine, Howard & All, How are you? I have translated the two verses in Section 498 and Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. I made sure that translations are as literal as possible in as natural English as possible. As they are verses, we need to ponder them with patience. Previous translators did not seem to read carefully the two verses as a unit and as whole. Therefore, they overlooked the last two lines of the second verse - "ettha naamañca ruupañca, asesam uparujjhati; viññaa.nassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhatii'ti." Their translations of the above two lines are usually incoherent and misleading because they were determined to translate the term "Viññaa.nam" as consciousness in the line "Viññaa.nam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham." Therefore, the previous translators usually went out of their way to translate the last two lines of the verse in Section 499 with speciall effort not to undermine their translation of the term "Viññaa.nam" in question as consciousness. You can perform "Syntax Walk-through" on my translations below. 498. "Evañca kho eso, bhikkhu, pañho pucchitabbo– `Kattha aapo ca pathavii, tejo vaayo na gaadhati; kattha diighañca rassañca, a.num thuulam subhaasubham. kattha naamañca ruupañca, asesam uparujjhatii'ti. 499. "Tatra veyyaakara.nam bhavati– `Viññaa.nam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham; ettha aapo ca pathavii, tejo vaayo na gaadhati. Ettha diighañca rassañca, a.num thuulam subhaasubham; ettha naamañca ruupañca, asesam uparujjhati; viññaa.nassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhatii'ti. 498. "Monk, this question should be asked along theses lines as well: Where do water, earth, heat and air not survive? Where do lengthiness, shortness, smallness, Largeness, beauty and ugliness not survive?. PONDER Where does the mental world as well as the matter run out Without remainder?" 499. "There is the answer: The Knowable, the Invisible, the Eventless, The Beach from everywhere, Here water, earth, heat and air do not survive. Neither do lengthiness, shortness, smallness, Largeness, beauty and ugliness here. Here the mental world runs out without remainder, And so does the matter. PONDER With the extinguishment of consciousness, Here this consciousness runs out. I will provide further assessment of the above two verses at a later date. Happy Syntax Walk-through! Happy poetry reading! With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhilogy.org 16923 From: James Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:20am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: Hi Suan, How are you? I am very impressed that you can translate Pali. I have a question for you about your translation. The last two lines in question, which you state were translated incorrectly previously, are now translated into: > PONDER With the extinguishment of consciousness, > Here this consciousness runs out. My question is: How does one PONDER anything when consciousness has been extinguished? This line seems to suggest that the ability to think goes "with" the absence of consciousness. Am I reading you wrong? If not, this is a very interesting proposition. It suggests what I have always thought about Nibbana: that it is the 'Greater Mind' of which our mind is but a reflection. It is pure thought without consciousness. Hard to imagine with our puny minds, but maybe possible??? Hmmmm... I eagerly await your reply. Metta, James 16924 From: James Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:25am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" > wrote: > Hi Suan, > > How are you? I am very impressed that you can translate Pali. I > have a question for you about your translation. The last two lines > in question, which you state were translated incorrectly > previously, are now translated into: > > > PONDER With the extinguishment of consciousness, > > Here this consciousness runs out. > > My question is: How does one PONDER anything when > consciousness has been extinguished? This line seems to > suggest that the ability to think goes "with" the absence of > consciousness. Am I reading you wrong? If not, this is a very > interesting proposition. > > It suggests what I have always thought about Nibbana: that it is > the 'Greater Mind' of which our mind is but a reflection. It is pure > thought without consciousness. Hard to imagine with our puny > minds, but maybe possible??? Hmmmm... I eagerly await your > reply. > > Metta, James Another thing, I notice that the second line states "This Consciousness" not "The Consciousness" or "Consciousness" this would suggest that perhaps one type of consciousness would be replaced for another. Perhaps? Sorry, you got my mind whirling! :-) Metta,James 16925 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 0:49pm Subject: Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... Dear Group, Some things I've noticed about the members of this List .... Nobody here is concerned by questions or constructive criticism. Most understand the Realities by having found out for themselves what is happening, now, in the only moment there is, the present moment. Nothing is taken on blind faith. All are continually encouraged to find out for themselves and to check everything with the Tipitaka. Dsg-ers don't feel the need to evangelise the world or belong to the largest tradition. They know there is not necessarily safety or truth in numbers, and that the endless, relentless round of rebirths is continuing right now. They do not feel the least bit threatened or defensive by someone not agreeing with them. (It reminds me of eating an apple, - obtaining it, feeling it, smelling it, seeing it, hearing the crunch as teeth take hold and tongue disperses the pieces around the mouth for masticating and mixing with saliva, tasting it, swallowing it, digesting it and then being told by another that apples don't exist and the idea of 'apple' was made up or distorted by someone years ago. List members will not argue but will encourage the person to prove 'the apple' exists by finding out for themselves, by following the Blessed One's Teachings and 'experiencing' the same things through all the Doorways.) Knowing the person's level of Understanding, (which is different from, but includes, the gathering of facts, and intellectual reasoning), they may decline to join in disputatious, disparaging or frivolous 'talk for the sake of talk' except very briefly with an occasional pointer or suggestion. They care only about Truth and Reality - this Dhamma. If others don't share their understanding they will do their best to be helpful, with kindness and compassion, but they will leave the responsibility with the individual concerned for practicing, experiencing, researching, studying, and finding the way to deliverance - alone. Alone, as we all must go. They have no investment in convincing someone to follow the Way they have found - other than great compassion for another suffering being. The Buddha proclaimed that even he, himself, could not cause anybody to attain the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness that experience nibbana at the moment of enlightenment and to become liberated from dukkha. Just wanted to say thanks for the companionship, the courtesy, the guidance under a light rein, support, not rushing in to spoon feed, allowing me to be frustrated sometimes, and the patient way of 'making me do the work of liberation myself'. much metta and gratitude, Christine 16926 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:25pm Subject: Re: back on line --- Dear Deanna, Good to have you back on line, hope you are enjoying routine life after your long trip. I'll put a photo of you on in a few days. Always good to have comments and questions, they help us all. Robert 16927 From: James Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:28pm Subject: Rupa is Rubbish-4 Sensory Rupa `Rupa' is split into different types of `rupa'. These rupa include the sensory rupas of: color rupa, odor rupa, auditory rupa, and taste rupa. All these `rupa', like Aristotle's `substances', are considered separate elements; actually classified as `objects` in the Abhidhamma. For example `blue' is a separate rupa from yellow rupa, green rupa, etc. Additionally, the blue rupa will manifest itself in different things, like the sky and ocean. But the `blue' of the sky and ocean are not just surface colors, they are supposed to be of an intrinsic, separate quality. Additionally, the theory of rupa posits that these rupa `exist' independent of the observer. Even if there was no one there to see blue rupa, it would still exist. The theory claims that they are an ultimate reality of the universe. This is a very important component of the nama-rupa theory because it deals with the senses. To see the separateness of color, sound, taste, and smell as objects, existing separate from the mind of the observer, and other rupa elements, is essential to the Rupa Proposal of the Abhidhamma. Does the theory of sensory rupa reflect ultimate reality? No, I don't think so. The sensory characteristics of our world are not separate, independent substances or rupa; they are dependent on the observer and do not `exist' in the `ultimate sense' They are all mind wrought, not matter bound. What proof exists of my position? What proof is there that color, taste, sound, odor are all qualities that come from the mind and not from matter? Well, there are minor proofs like optical and auditory illusions, but I believe the most significant proof is found in brain functioning research focusing on: Synaesthesia. Allow me to quote some sources a bit about synaesthesia, who has it, and what causes it; and then I will explain how this relates to sensory rupa. www.dictionary.com defines: syn·es·the·sia also syn·aes·the·sia n. A condition in which one type of stimulation evokes the sensation of another, as when the hearing of a sound produces the visualization of a color. "For example, in the most common type of synaesthesia hearing a sound leads to the experience of a photism. One of the most interesting characteristics of the synaesthetic experience is that synaesthetes typically report their expeiriences as being projected outside the body, rather than in he mind's eye. That is, for a digit-colour synaesthete, not only do they conceive of the digit as being a specific colour, but they also perceive it to be that colour. Though this fascinating condition has only recently been presented to the public eye, its existence has been known for much longer." http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~mjdixlab/synaesthesia/home.htm Here are some Questions and Answers about Synesthesia: Frequently Asked Questions Q: When two sensory modalities are linked, can either one elicit an experience in the other? A: Not usually. In most cases of synaesthesia the direction of elicitation is unidirectional, and in the cases where the connection is bidirectional, one direction is usually stronger than the other. Q: Are the associations in synaesthesia always the same? A: Yes. In fact, consistancy is a diagnostic criteria for synaesthesia. Q: Do all synaesthetes share the same associations? A: No. In fact, for any given type of synaesthesia there is very little consensus on which features are correlated between two different sensory dimensions Q: Can synaesthesia involve more than two sensory modalities? A: Yes. Most cases of synaesthesia only involve a mapping between two sensory modalities, but there have been cases where multiple sensory expeiriences can be elicited from a single inducing stimulus. Q: Does synaesthesia pose any problems/benefits for those who have some form of it? A: Although situations that bombard the senses may be uncomfortable for synaesthetes, most report nothing negative about experincing the phnomenon/a. Concerning benefits, many synaesthetes report the ability to use their associations as mnemonic strategies. Q: How common is synaesthesia? A: It is unclear how many people have synaesthesia. Estimates range from 1 in 250,000 to 1 in 2,000. http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~mjdixlab/synaesthesia/faq.htm Okay, now the big question, and a very significant thing to know about synaesthesia: WHAT CAUSES IT? "The NS hypothesis (The Neonatal Synaesthesia Hypothesis) argues that early in infancy, probably up to about 4 months of age, all babies experience sensory input in an undifferentiated way. Sounds trigger both auditory and visual and tactile experiences....The notion would be that following an early initial phase of normal synaesthesia, the different sensory modalities become increasing modular (Fodor, 1983), presumably because modularity leads to more rapid and efficient information processing, and is therefore highly adaptive....In an evolutionary framework, one must assume that modularity of the senses makes for adaptive neural and psychological functioning....Some forms of synaesthesia (but not all) are clearly maladaptive, and this is in line with the evolutionary arguments outlined earlier, in which natural selection favoured individuals whose senses were modular." http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v2/psyche-2-27-baron_cohen.html Conclusions: So, what does this all have to do with the theory of sensory rupa? Obviously if someone, for example, hears a sound and then sees a color outside of the body in relation to that sound, where is that color coming from? Where is the sound coming from? Obviously, they are both coming from the brain. The brain is what assigns the sound and the color. They are not coming from an outside `rupa'. They don't exist if the brain doesn't assign them. If the perception of colors can occur in normal brains, unaffected by drugs, and they are not linked to Abhidhamma rupa criteria, than Abhidhamma rupa criteria is flawed. Secondly, if we all have synaethesia as babies, and eventually develop sensory modalities as a result of evolution adaptation, than the senses of color, odor, sound, and tastes are not dependent on the outside world, they are dependent on the mind. Not everyone senses things the same way, therefore senses do not come from the outside world. It seems pretty clear that sensory rupa don't exist. Nama is the only thing, for all practical purposes, that exists. Metta, James 16928 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... Dear Christine, These are very nice advice indeed! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:49 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... > > > Dear Group, > > Some things I've noticed about the members of this List .... > Nobody here is concerned by questions or constructive criticism. > Most understand the Realities by having found out for themselves what > is happening, now, in the only moment there is, the present moment. > Nothing is taken on blind faith. All are continually encouraged to > find out for themselves and to check everything with the Tipitaka. > Dsg-ers don't feel the need to evangelise the world or belong to the ... 16929 From: James Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:11pm Subject: Re: Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... Christine, This is a very nice pep talk. I hope that it isn't inspired by my recent posts. One could almost get the impression that you are rallying the troops to withstand the Infidel! :-) But probably not. And I agree with you, the membership of this group is awesome, in many ways. Metta, James Ps. My opinion, the apple is anatta,. I believe that it exists, but it exists as change and not matter. And I want to reflect about myself, if I may, (inspired by a line in your post) that though I am educated and articulate in many worldly matters, at heart I am really a wisdom seeker of 'that' which is beyond knowledge and words. My viewpoints don't come from just intellectual understanding, they also come from years of meditation, years of teaching by a Buddhist master, years of association/friendship with bhikkhus, many late nights pondering life's puzzles, intuition, solitary reflection, zest and zeal, and the love/support of friends and family. 16930 From: rahula_80 Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:30pm Subject: Re: Citta and Vinnana Hi, >Is Shakya Aryanatta clear that vinnana and citta are synonyms? He might not realise this.< No, he said they are different. Some of the evidence he provided, are the suttas provided in my previous post. For example, one sutta talks about "liberation of the citta". Another talks about the "cessation of vinnana". Also one says " the desire and lust for vinnana (the five khandhas) is a defilement of the citta." What is the basis of saying that citta and vinnana is the same. Which sutta says that? Some Buddhist says that citta is purified vinnana. But how is that possible? (cessation of vinnana) 16931 From: Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... Hi, James - In a message dated 11/13/02 11:14:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Ps. My opinion, the apple is anatta,. I believe that it exists, but > it exists as change and not matter. And I want to reflect about > myself, if I may, (inspired by a line in your post) that though I am > educated and articulate in many worldly matters, at heart I am really > a wisdom seeker of 'that' which is beyond knowledge and words. My > viewpoints don't come from just intellectual understanding, they also > come from years of meditation, years of teaching by a Buddhist > master, years of association/friendship with bhikkhus, many late > nights pondering life's puzzles, intuition, solitary reflection, zest > and zeal, and the love/support of friends and family. > > > ============================= I see impermanence differently. There is no "thing" which is impermanence. Impermanence is just a characteristic of things. There are phenomena, events, conditions - and they are impermanent. And what does it mean that they are impermanent? It does not mean that they change, for change implies an underlying something that is the bearer of the change. What it means for phenomena to be impermanent is that they DO NOT REMAIN. All conditions are impermanent in that they do not remain, they do not last, they cease. The alleged things that seem to change are mental constructs such as trees, cars, planets, and people. The elementary, directly experienced phenomena/events from which we construct "external objects" do not change - they merely arise and cease. The mind-assembled aggregates of arising and ceasing phenomena which we identify as "external objects" seem to be changing things because of the arising and ceasing of their component phenomena. The reality is that the components come and go, but we identify a later aggregate of components as an actual independent entity which is a "changed" version of an earlier one. It's like a wooden boat which is an assemblage of planks for which plank after plank is removed and replaced by new planks. The planks come and go, but the boat seems to remain but change. It is as if the boat were some sort of underlying template serving as the vehicle for change. But, more precisely speaking, there are just the planks, and none of them last. (The planks, of course, are also mental constructs, but we can forget that for the time being.) While all conditioned dhammas are impermanent and unsatisfactory, and all dhammas are impersonal and insubstantial, the "world" does not consist of things called impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and impersonality-insubstantiality. To think that is to lean more towards Platonism than to Buddhism, reifying abstractions. These three are just characteristics of phenomena, not the threads from which is sewn the fabric of reality. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16932 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: Why Rupa is Rubbish-3 Hi James, I was taken aback by your explanations of quantum physics because I'm used to seeing it presented as a `feather in the cap' for us Buddhists. I have heard it said that quantum physics has brought modern science to the point from which the Buddha's teaching began. This was said partly in reference to the fact that the properties of an observed object must always be influenced by the act of observation. I don't understand the implications of this; does it mean that science can only deal in concepts? In any case, it is apparently so profound as to have caused some prominent scientists to give up physics and take up Eastern mysticism (so called). I'm sure you are aware of `The Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra. I found it too heavy going and soon lost interest in finding connections between science and dhamma. According to the Buddha, the phenomena that we see, hear, smell, taste and touch, arise dependent on kamma. I think this takes his teaching beyond the scope of science, don't you? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > ultimate reality? Not according to modern scientific discoveries. > > Though the field of quantum physics is changing daily, one supreme > model appears to be emerging. Rather than Rupas or Substances > composing our universe, Processes are the ultimate reality of our > universe. > > Physics Department, University of Surrey, Guildford GU2 5XH, U.K > "Since the failure of both pure corpuscular and pure wave > philosophies of nature, process theories assume that only events need > to exist in order to have a physics. Starting from an ontology of > actual events, a dispositional analysis is shown here to lead to a > new idea of substance, that of a `distribution of potentiality or > propensity'. This begins to provide a useful foundation for quantum > physics. A model is presented to show how the existence of physical > substances could be a reasonable consequence of a theory of > processes." > > Kind of mind-boggling really, but I posit that there aren't any Rupas > which have the qualities of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta. > Ultimate reality is simply: the processes of impermanence, dukkha, > and anatta. No Rupa to cling to… > > Metta, James 16933 From: James Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > I see impermanence differently. There is no "thing" which is > impermanence. Impermanence is just a characteristic of things. There are > phenomena, events, conditions - and they are impermanent. And what does it > mean that they are impermanent? It does not mean that they change, for change > implies an underlying something that is the bearer of the change. What it > means for phenomena to be impermanent is that they DO NOT REMAIN. Hi Howard, Thank you for your thoughtful e-mail. I am glad that someone brought up this definition and thinking about impermanence because, you are correct, it doesn't match my thinking and definition. With my way of thinking, I believe I MAY be closer to what the Buddha intended when he taught impermanence. Granted, he taught impermanence in much the way you describe, but those were very simple times without the vocabulary or science to teach it any other way. The Buddha, by his own admission, didn't teach many things that he knew his audience wouldn't grasp…or didn`t need to `know` but to `experience`...the handful of leaves in comparison to the forest of leaves of reality. You define impermanence as meaning something ends. As the Buddha taught impermanence, things arise, persist, and pass away. But I believe the Buddha was describing conventional reality in a way to be understood, not exactly ultimate reality. I believe `ultimate reality' is that our universe is made of energy in constant flux. Combinations of this energy, along with the conditioning of the mind, make it appear as if phenomenon are arising, persisting, and passing away in distinct stages. However, at the basic level, I believe and current science bears this out, that everything is change or process… like the Buddha, I believe that energy is arising, persisting, and passing away, but I believe that is all happening at the same time. How can this be possible? Perhaps that is where Nibbana fits into the picture. I will address these matters in my next and last post. I must confer with Steven Hawkings first though :-) j/k Metta, James Ps. Gosh you have referred to me as a Vedic the other day, and now a Platonian! Is such profane name-calling really necessary? :-) 16934 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] back on line Hi Shakti, Glad to see you backand thanks for letting us know. Working through three month's worth of posts will keep you very busy. Pleae jump in anytime - it's never too late to pick up a thread. I'm glad your time in Bangkok worked out so well and look forward to any impressions or topics from your discussions there as and when they fit into your other qus or comments. All in all, you must have had a pretty exciting trip. Sarah p.s Rob - look f/w to the pic to match;-) ========================================== --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I'm back on line after almost a three month break. I'm working my way > thru some of the posts that were written and there are some very > interesting streams of thought. Please forgive me if I jump in and ask > questions or comment on something that has already been discussed. 16935 From: James Mitchell Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why Rupa is Rubbish-3 --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi James, > > I was taken aback by your explanations of quantum > physics > because I'm used to seeing it presented as a > `feather in > the cap' for us Buddhists. I have heard it said > that > quantum physics has brought modern science to the > point > from which the Buddha's teaching began. (I think you have greatly misunderstood my posts. I am refuting the Abhidhamma's concept of Rupa using some theories of quantum physics. I don't consider this refuting Buddhism because I don't believe the Buddha had a single thing to do with the Abhidhamma. I believe Quantum Physics is still in its infancy, but it is getting closer to the teachings of the Buddha. However, the Buddha had a wisdom far beyond any physical science or quantum physics. You have really misunderstood my posts. I am sorry I wasn't clear enough. These are rather weighty issues and I go kinda too fast sometimes...before one idea has been completely pondered, I have come out with two or three more! :-( Sorry. I will wait a few day before I post my final, and most complicated, post.) This was > said > partly in reference to the fact that the properties > of an > observed object must always be influenced by the act > of > observation. I don't understand the implications of > this; does it mean that science can only deal in > concepts? (No, it means that science must consider/factor in both what is observed and the observer in scientific proof. Science isn't used to doing that, but it will learn. Meditation could help ;-) In any case, it is apparently so profound > as > to have caused some prominent scientists to give up > physics and take up Eastern mysticism (so called). (I hadn't heard of that. They could do both.) > > > I'm sure you are aware of `The Tao of Physics' by > Fritjof > Capra. I found it too heavy going and soon lost > interest > in finding connections between science and dhamma. (Yes, I gave up on that book also. Not scientific enough. The author didn't use true physics as a tool to prove/examine Taoism/Dharma. He attempted to use Taoism/Dharma to 'reshape' true physics. The result was a big mess.) > According to the Buddha, the phenomena that we see, > hear, > smell, taste and touch, arise dependent on kamma. I > think this takes his teaching beyond the scope of > science, don't you? (No, Karma is well within the scope of science. Karma is everything, science included. Karma is in Newton's Law of Gravity, to the Big Bang Theory...to all scientific theories. Karma plays a role in everything. Of course the Buddha described Karma in conventional terms and in ultimate reality terms. But Iwon't go into that now. Maybe later.) > Metta, James > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16936 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:26pm Subject: Re: Citta and Vinnana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > >Robert: Is Shakya Aryanatta clear that vinnana and citta are synonyms? He > might not realise this.< > > No, he said they are different. Some of the evidence he provided, are the suttas provided in my previous post. > > _______________ Dear Rahula, Stigan gave this post a while back. Hope it clarifies that mano, citta and vinnana are synonyms: In dhammastudygroup@y..., Bodhi2500@a... wrote: " Bhikkhus as to that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana- the uninstructed worldling is unable to experiance revulsion (nibbinditum) towards it.For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him,appropriated and grasped thus:'This is mine,This I am ,This is my Atta' It would be better,Bhikkhus for the uninstructed worldling to take as atta this body composed of the 4 great elements rather than the citta. For what reason? Because this body composed of the 4 great elements is seen standing for one year,for two years,for three,four ,five or ten years,for 20,30 40 or 50 years,for 100 years, or even longer. But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and night. Samyutta 12:61:Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi Robert 16937 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 24, Comm. Dear Larry & All, You asked about the difference between kaya and rupa. I meant to quote from an earlier post I wrote on this: ***** “kaaya can refer to nama-kaya or rupa-kaya (see Nyantiloka dictionary extract below). When I wrote to Erik before about kaya lahuta (lightness of mental factors), kaya muduta (‘elasticity’ of mental factors) and so on, they were referring to kinds of nama-kaya. If we’re referring to kayanupassana (mindfulness of ‘body’), the first of the 4 foundations of mindfulness, then it is referring to rupas. In both cases, however, the namas and rupas are realities and not concepts like letters. In the second case, kayanupassana refers to rupas as objects of sati, not to a ‘body’ or ‘whole’, but to hardness, heat, motion, visible object and so on. From the Satipatthana Sutta Commentary we read: “There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and dervied materiality, in a body.” ***** Nyantiloka dictionary extract ------------------------------- káya (lit: accumulation): 'group', 'body', may either refer to the physical body (rúpa-káya) or to the mental body (náma-káya). In the latter case it is either a collective name for the mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness; s. khandha), or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental formations (s. náma), e.g. in káya-lahutá, etc. (cf. Tab. II). Káya has this same meaning in the standard description of the 3rd absorption (jhána, q.v.) "and he feels joy in his mind or his mental constitution (káya)", and (e.g. Pug. 1-8) of the attainment of the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.); "having attained the 8 deliverances in his mind, or his person (káya)." - Káya is also the 5th sense-organ, the body-organ; s. áyatana, dhátu, indriya.” “ ***** In other words, kayanupassi ‘contemplating the body’ refers to all rupas as included in rupa khandha as objects of satipatthana. I liked the mention in the recent extract, referring to sati-sampajanna when it said: T: “Necessary in all circumstances”= Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable......” ***** There are rupas appearing now - visible object, sound, hardness, smell. We don’t need to wait until we’re sitting in a different position or are less sluggish or ‘unbalanced’ for sati to be aware of them and panna to know their characteristics. As Nina wrote: “when there is awareness of rupa, understanding should be developed of rupa, a reality which does not know anything, different from nama which knows. Different from citta or feeling. Thus, we should not try to isolate body contemplation from feeling contemplation, etc. That is too much theoretical thinking, looking at a distance at things. If the difference between nama and rupa is not realized it is impossible to realize the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta.” ..... As we read earlier in the commentary: “What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see’; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free.” We read further from the Tika that:” “what he sees”= What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. “I see a woman,” “I see a man.” -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis (rupayatana) in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form (viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta).” ..... In other words, because rupas are not seen for what they really are with the ‘eye of wisdom’, we are shackled and misled into taking conventional truths for being realities. To quote from a recent message of Rob K’s: ***** “Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote” ***** Seeing rupas as they are, eventually as impermanent, suffering, subject to change and foul, does not mean concentrating or focussing on these characteristics, but understanding the nature of phenomena when they appear. The first stage of insight is to clearly and dirctly understand rupas as distinct from namas - mere ‘empty phenomena’. Sarah ====== 16938 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 0:34am Subject: Kom's comments (was: Way 21, Comm.) Dear Kom (& Nina), I’ve also appreciated your recent posts and the following quotes: “Kom: The Buddha teaches about Sacca-dhamma: the dhamma that truly exists. Even without the Buddha, kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala. If akusala states are arising in ourselves, and others (or we) say it is good, the states are still akusala. If kusala states are arising in ourselves, and others say it is no good, the states are still kusala. Kusala/akusala states are not about situations or stories: they are about the qualities of the realities that are arising now. Dhamma is anatta because it has the characteristics that nobody can control... N: So helpful for all of us to consider this. Kusala is kusala it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. Seeing is seeing, it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. It does not matter which name we give it. This is a way to understand the difference between reality and concept. It is an approach from the practice, more helpful than theoretical definitions of concept and reality.” ***** I was reminded of these comments about sacca-dhamma when I read the following from the Udana commentary on Nibbana2, Pitali Villagers chapter, yesterday. This passage follows on immediately from the one I quoted for Christine on ‘The uninclined’: ***** “And, in this connection, he indicates, by means of this “hard to see”, the fact of nibbana being something to be attained with difficulty, in that the cultivation of that which is conditionless is something not easy for beings to do, on account of their having for a long time been engrossed with the defilements of lust and so on that bring about a weakening of insight. He also makes this same fact public by means of this “For that which is true is not easy to see”. Herein: truth (sacca.m):nibbana. For this is “truth” (sacca.m) in the sense of its being unequivocal, on account of its being absolutely true (santattaa) through the absence in any way whatsoever of that whose own nature is that of being untrue (asanta). For this is not easy to see, is not to be beheld with ease, on account of its being capable of being completely attained only after (a good deal of) trouble, even by those mustering, even for a good long time, the ingredients of merit and knowledge.” ***** Kom, you also gave some very helpful reminders about how the same words can be a condition for angst for one and for calm or insight for another.I especially the comments about our responses when we hear the story of the trapped monkey: ..... K:“When you hear of death, espeically of a person that you know, you may cringe and feel agitated. However, if you consider that this beloved body too, will soon reach that state: this may bring calm for some people. When you feel happy and attached to your loved ones, if you also think, those too, will soon reach their death. This may bring calm too, for some. This may also bring more energy to develop kusala whenever one can. A. Sujin suggested that when we hear about the Buddha's teaching, we should listen and apply it to ourselves. For example, you may have heard about the story in the commentaries (this story was posted in the past, I believe) about a monkey who was trapped by the glue used by the monkey hunter. The monkey was lured by baits provided by the hunter. When we hear this story, we may feel sorry for the monkey, or we may be amused about the monkey not knowing the trick of the hunter and the potency of the glue. On the other hand, we may also compare the monkey to ourselves, that just like the monkey, we are trapped in samsara by our attachments, and being ignorant, we go about all the wrong way to get away from suffering.” ***** I look forward to more of your wise considerations;-) Sarah ====== 16939 From: Star Kid Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 0:46am Subject: Kimmy's letter Hi everyone, I am Kimmy and I am a 14 years old girl. I live in Hong Kong but my nationality is Singaporean. I speak Cantonese, English and Manderine. I study in Sacred Heart Canossian College, which is a Christian Secondary School in Southern part of Hong Kong. I like to play basketball as well as computer games, also chatting with my friends through icq and telephone!! I feel very sorry about the death of Jan's teacher, Mr. Wash-till and the Bali Bomb. I understand how Jan feels becasue I had such an experience before. One of my brother's firends, Christine, lives in America, she was nearly hurt in the 911 attack. It was so luckily that i feel life isreally precious. As I have said that I am studying in a Christian School. I don't knowanything about Buddhism. However, i think that every religion believes that life is precious. Kimmy 16940 From: Star Kid Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 0:51am Subject: hi James! Dear James, Thx for replying my e-mail, i was really surprised about how many e-mails i got from my old letter. I also agree with you about buddhism. It is a happy way to live and view of life. I wanted to ask you this, are you a Buddhist or a Christian? Im very curious because i thought most Americans were Christians but now i realized i was wrong. And thx again ... i hope you will reply soon! Jo De Liver De Letter De Sooner De Better De Later De Letter De Madder I Getter Thx 16941 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... Dear Christine, On behalf of all members here, may I thank you for your kind comments, support and encouragement to us all. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Just wanted to say thanks for the companionship, the courtesy, the > guidance under a light rein, support, not rushing in to spoon feed, > allowing me to be frustrated sometimes, and the patient way > of 'making me do the work of liberation myself'. > > much metta and gratitude, ..... I'm sure I speak for everyone too when I say that we would all be the poorer without the questioning, considering, researching, humour and growth in wisdom which is so apparent in your posts and contributions here. James & Howard, on behalf of everyone, thank you also for yr encouraging words and highly valued contributions. Sarah (Jon & All, I'm sure) ===================== 16942 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 3:28am Subject: Star kids All, 1) James, pls note this letter to you,signed by 'Jo' is the same as Jan. (I think she calls herself Jo at school and Jan when she visits me.)At least we know it's her from the signature poem;-) --- Star Kid wrote: > > And thx again ... i hope you will reply soon! > Jo > > De Liver > > De Letter 2)RobK, Nina, Howard and one or two others will be interested to hear that Charles is the same child I mentioned last year who came out with such unusual comments about birth and death and birthdays. He chose to write his letter the other day (which he did on his own by hand) after reading the responses to Jan. Thanks for all the kind replies. Sarah ====== 16943 From: Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some things I've noticed about members of dsg ... Hi, James - In a message dated 11/14/02 1:41:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Ps. Gosh you have referred to me as a Vedic the other day, and now a > Platonian! Is such profane name-calling really necessary? :-) > > ======================= ;-)) [It happens that I was "in love" with Advaita Vedanta before I knew of the Dhamma.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16944 From: Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Star kids Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/14/02 6:29:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > RobK, Nina, Howard and one or two others will be interested to hear that > Charles is the same child I mentioned last year who came out with such > unusual comments about birth and death and birthdays. He chose to write > his letter the other day (which he did on his own by hand) after reading > the responses to Jan. > > ========================== Very interesting. He is *brilliant* - absolutely amazing! Were I Hindu (or a Theosophist), I'd say he was an "old soul". ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16945 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:03am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear James How are you? You asked two questions about the following lines. "PONDER With the extinguishment of consciousness, Here this consciousness runs out. Question One: "My question is: How does one PONDER anything when consciousness has been extinguished?" Answer One: I am not asking the readers to ponder something after the extinguishment of consciousness. I asked the readers to ponder the meaning of these two lines that cancels out and extinguishes the thinnest hopes of those who want to believe Nibbaana to be a form of consciousness. Question Two: Another thing, I notice that the second line states "This Consciousness" not "The Consciousness" or "Consciousness" this would suggest that perhaps one type of consciousness would be replaced for another. Perhaps? Answer Two: It is the translation of the Pali expression "etthetam". Literally, it says "Here this". Previous translators usually avoid translating this expression explicitly. They may have their reasons. One of their overriding reasons would be that explicit translation would surely undermine their translation of the term "Viññaa.nam" before the term "anidassanam" as consciousness. "etthetam" = ettha (here) + etam (this). "Etam" is a demonstrative pronoun that represents "viññaa.nam (consciousness)." I would like to show that the Buddha did not mince his words in declaring the annihilation of consciousness in nibbaana when he said this line. Therefore, the phrase "this consciousness" merely refers back to the consciousness in the phrase "With the extinguishment of consciousness". That phrase in the line two does not suggest replacement of one type of consciousness for another. To be on the safer side, you could read "this consciousness" as "this (consciousness)". If you were a student of Pali language, you would appreciate my explicit and unambiguous translation of the expression "etthetam" which plays a very important role in understanding these verses. I hope my answers succeeded in extinguishing your doubts. With kind reagrds, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" > > wrote: > > Hi Suan, > > thought without consciousness. Hard to imagine with our puny > > minds, but maybe possible??? Hmmmm... I eagerly await > your > > reply. > > > > Metta, James > > would be replaced for another. Perhaps? Sorry, you got my > mind whirling! :-) Metta,James 16946 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Getting into Abhidhamma Hi all, When I join this group, frankly I was really lost. And finally Robert was kind enough to point me to Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life". I was wondering, if it's possible and feasible, to add a link or a file, named "Beginner's Guide", where a list of links are given and possibly ordered by degree of difficulties for the study of Abhidhamma? Appreciated! Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 2:38 PM Subject: [dsg] Getting into Abhidhamma > Hi James, > > I am really glad to see that you are not going to abandon Abhidhamma. > > I remember when I started attending weekly Abhidhamma classes five > years ago; for the first six months, I left the class shaking my > head thinking, "What did he talk about?". I wasn't used to that > feeling and took it as a personal challenge to "learn the lingo" > (BTW, an in-depth understanding of Pali is not required to > appreciate the Abhidhamma, almost all of the Pali-related > discussions on DSG are focused on Suttas, not Abhidhamma). > > Now the weekly class has been split into two and I teach the > beginner's class. I am used to seeing people show up and leave with > a blank look on their faces. Fortunately, most of them come back the > following week. Now I take it as my personal challenge to share the > beauty of the Abhidhamma without scaring anybody away. > > I strongly recommend that you use Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" > as your initial basis of study and then you can move onto Bhikkhu > Bodhi. > > I am looking forward to an extended discussion with you. I never > learned anything from anybody who agreed with me and I suspect that > I will learn a lot from you (and visa-versa) :-). > > Gotta go, need to prepare for my class which starts in a couple of > hours. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > 16947 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Sarah and all, I misrepresented Jim's translation last time: he did not say: should be understood, but: 'cognizable' or 'discernible' . This is what you also suggested. Nina op 13-11-2002 10:29 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Suan wrote: >>> "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in >>> Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta >>> Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. >> n.513 “MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, > called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized". > ..... > In an earlier post I wrote: > “The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be > understood > as 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the > Pali com. as Jim explained to me. As I mentioned, B.Bodhi also added in > his notes (513). , > > "MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called > 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized" '. > ----------------------------------- > Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: > 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all > directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)'” > ***** 16948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:01am Subject: patience Dear friends, I have little time, because I have to finish translation work before leaving for Thailand. Meanwhile, when checking Perfections I came upon some helpful practical advices of A. Sujin which I like to quote now: 16949 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 James says: "Does the theory of sensory rupa reflect ultimate reality? No, I don't think so. The sensory characteristics of our world are not separate, independent substances or rupa; they are dependent on the observer and do not `exist' in the `ultimate sense' They are all mind wrought, not matter bound. What proof exists of my position? What proof is there that color, taste, sound, odor are all qualities that come from the mind and not from matter? Well, there are minor proofs like optical and auditory illusions, but I believe the most significant proof is found in brain functioning research focusing on: Synaesthesia. Allow me to quote some sources a bit about synaesthesia, who has it, and what causes it; and then I will explain how this relates to sensory rupa. " I think here you are confusing the sign of rupa for rupa. Certainly the notion of color, red, good looking, etc are all signs of a form that reflects a particular light wave lenght. But those are not the wavelength. Synaesthesia proves that point very well. You notice that no one appears to be saying that someone who hears color, is actually changing a sound wave into an light wave. If that were the case then everyone around the person would also hear the color. Also no one is saying that the ear or eye is producing the sound or light wave. Rather it appears that for some reason sound consciouness has also become assoicated with contact between the eye and object of the eye...ie form. So while the mental aspect of the contact, ie what appears as sound, has been effected, the rupa aspect, ie sound waves, have not been effected. Thus this shows that rupa is seperate from nama. Sort of goes back to the idea that if no one can hear a tree falling, is there sound? The is of course not, because sound requires both rupa and nama, but frequency waves are produced, they just do not come into contact with anything that would interperate them as sound. 16950 From: James Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:43am Subject: Re: hi James! --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thx for replying my e-mail, i was really surprised > about how many e-mails i got from my old letter. > > I also agree with you about buddhism. It is a happy > way to live and view of life. > > I wanted to ask you this, are you a Buddhist or a > Christian? Im very curious because i thought most > Americans were Christians but now i realized i was > wrong. > > And thx again ... i hope you will reply soon! > Jo > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx Hi Star Kid! (AKA Jan): It is good to hear from you again! Thank you for your letter. You sound more happy and that makes me more happy. Buddhism will make you happy because it helps you to see things as they really are. Then there is no need for fear, or sadness, or being mean to other people. You are a very smart girl to know this. To answer your question, I am a Buddhist; I am not a Christian. I am a Buddhist because I believe, with all my heart, in the Buddha, his teachings, and the need to have and support Buddhist friends and monks. These three things are called `The Triple Gem', and to me they are worth more than any gems like diamonds, rubies, or emeralds. They are worth more than all the money in the world! However, being a Buddhist or being a Christian doesn't really matter- people are still people. Christians believe in `GOD'; Buddhists believe in `GOOD'. One little letter doesn't make that much difference- does it? :-) Take care of yourself Jan. Study hard and listen to your teachers. You have a good start in life and a great future ahead of you! Love, James "And will you succeed? Yes! You will, indeed! (98 and ¾ percent guaranteed.) KID, YOU'LL MOVE MOUNTIANS! Today is your day! Your mountain is waiting So...get on your way!" -Dr. Seuss 16951 From: James Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ray Hendrickson" > I think here you are confusing the sign of rupa for rupa. Certainly the > notion of color, red, good looking, etc are all signs of a form that > reflects a particular light wave lenght. But those are not the wavelength. > Synaesthesia proves that point very well. You notice that no one appears to > be saying that someone who hears color, is actually changing a sound wave > into an light wave. If that were the case then everyone around the person > would also hear the color. Also no one is saying that the ear or eye is > producing the sound or light wave. Rather it appears that for some reason > sound consciouness has also become assoicated with contact between the eye > and object of the eye...ie form. So while the mental aspect of the contact, > ie what appears as sound, has been effected, the rupa aspect, ie sound > waves, have not been effected. Thus this shows that rupa is seperate from > nama. Sort of goes back to the idea that if no one can hear a tree falling, > is there sound? The is of course not, because sound requires both rupa and > nama, but frequency waves are produced, they just do not come into contact > with anything that would interperate them as sound. Ray, I think you are confusing modern physics with 'Rupa' theory. I agree with everything you write except when you refer to it as 'rupa'. For example, that tree falling in the forest I described in an early post, that wouldn't make a 'sound' because a mind wasn't there to produce a sound; that is not 'rupa' theory. Rupa theory would say that the sound waves would naturally have the object of 'sound rupa' and there would still be a sound regardless of if someone was there to hear it or not. That is the problem I have with sensory rupa being classified as 'objects' existing outside of the mind. Sensory perception is a result of the mind processing sensations, not because of recognition of outside objects. Now, do you see how primitive and Aristotlian 'Sensory Rupa' theory is? Metta, James Weight Age Gender Female Male 16952 From: James Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 0:32pm Subject: Re: Kimmy's letter --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am Kimmy and I am a 14 years old girl. I live in > Hong Kong but my nationality is Singaporean. I speak > Cantonese, English and Manderine. I study in Sacred > Heart Canossian College, which is a Christian > Secondary School in Southern part of Hong Kong. I like > to play basketball as well as computer games, also > chatting with my friends through icq and telephone!! > > I feel very sorry about the death of Jan's teacher, > Mr. Wash-till and the Bali Bomb. I understand how Jan > feels becasue I had such an experience before. One of > my brother's firends, Christine, lives in America, she > was nearly hurt in the 911 attack. It was so luckily > that i feel life isreally precious. > > As I have said that I am studying in a Christian > School. I don't knowanything about Buddhism. However, > i think that every religion believes that life is > precious. > > Kimmy Hi Kimmy, Thanks for writing. I agree with you that life is very precious. I know that you are Christian, but let my tell you what the Buddha said about the preciousness of life. The Buddha said that to imagine how precious life is, one should imagine the following story: Imagine that the whole planet is covered in ocean. And in this ocean lives one completely blind sea turtle. Now, this sea turtle only comes to the surface of the water once every thousand years. Now imagine that on this great big ocean, covering the entire planet, is one piece of flat wood floating with a hole in the middle of it. And this whole is just big enough for that sea turtle to fit his head through it. The Buddha then said that human life occurs as often as that turtle will rise to the surface of that ocean, once every thousand years, and happen to put his head through the hole in that floating wood. Wow! That wouldn't happen very often at all! Life is very precious and no one should take it. Killing is wrong and terrorism is wrong. But do you know what is also wrong? Wasting your life with drugs, and crime, and doing other bad things. That is also wrong. Instead of taking the life of someone else, you are taking your own life. Thank you Kimmy for your letter. Take care and work hard at your school! Metta, James 16953 From: Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:26pm Subject: Way 25, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on "a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful, having overcome in this world covetousness and grief". After the pointing out of the things that make up the condition connected with the Arousing of Mindfulness through body-contemplation, there is the pointing out of the things that make up the condition which should be abandoned in this practice with the words, "having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief" = Vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. [Tika] "Arousing of Mindfulness". Here bare mindfulness is meant. Therefore, the commentator speaks of "the things that make up the condition connected with the Arousing of Mindfulness." These things are energy and so forth, associated necessarily with mindfulness. Condition [anga] = reason [karana]. [T] Mindfulness denotes concentration, too, here on account of the inclusion of mindfulness in the aggregate of concentration [samadhikkhandha]. [T] Or since the exposition is on mindfulness, and as neither the abandoning of defilements nor the attainment of Nibbana is wrought by mindfulness alone, and as mindfulness does not also occur separately, the pointing out "the things that make up the condition connected with the Arousing of Mindfulness" is like the pointing out of the condition connected with absorption [jhana]. Condition [anga] is a synonym for constituent [avayava]. Initial application, sustained application, interest, joy and one-pointedness of mind are together with absorption, as energy and the other qualities are with mindfulness. "Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]. [T] Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator here. "In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling. As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of clinging are the world." Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief. With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body. 16954 From: Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments Larry: "The question that relates to where we are right now is what are we to do with these ways of understaning the 4 satipatthanas. Everyone is attached to the body, everyone desires pleasant feeling, everyone believes in permanence, everyone believes in a self. That is the problem. The 4 satipatthanas are the solution. What should we do?" Jon: "You ask what we should do to understand the 4 satipatthanas. I believe this is about the most difficult question in the whole world to answer. We should not be surprised that a ready answer does not leap out at us from the pages of the sutta/commentaries. As far as I can see, there's nothing to actually be done at this (or any) particular moment. The development of the 4 satipatthanas is the development of understanding of the presently arising reality. So the more we know about understanding, what it is, what its object may be, what are the conditions for its arising, what are the indicators of its having arisen, and so on, the better our chances of developing it at some (other) time." Hi Jon, I think you are making this too difficult. What to do is anupassana. "Anupassana" = "look at". So, look at something. Larry 16955 From: Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 25, Comm. [Tika] "Arousing of Mindfulness". Here bare mindfulness is meant. Therefore, the commentator speaks of "the things that make up the condition connected with the Arousing of Mindfulness." These things are energy and so forth, associated necessarily with mindfulness. Condition [anga] = reason [karana]. Hi all, Anyone know what the pali is for "bare mindfulness' here? Also, I think "energy and so forth" refers to atapi (ardent/energy), sampajano (clearly comprehending), and satima (mindful). Just a guess. They would be associated necessarily with anupassana (looking at) in order to make satipatthana. Any discussion? Larry 16956 From: James Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:11pm Subject: Ultimate Reality Hey All, I was doing some research for my final post about Abhidhamma Rupa Theory and I came across the "Ultimate Reality and Meaning Journal." A fascinating publication. Anyway, I wanted to share the questions they offer to potential contributors to the journal which serve as a basis for the material contain therein. These questions show the depth and complexity of the nature of 'Ultimate Reality', and that it deals with much more than simply nama/rupa. Just thought I would pass them along as food for thought: The contributor should be guided by such questions as: -Is the ultimate reality and meaning dealt with directly or indirectly? How is it expressed: as space model, e.g., milieu, horizon, context, etc.: time model, e.g. origin, cause, ultimate, final, etc.: person model, e.g. God, spirit, spirits, etc.? -What is the final horizon, the central idea in terms of which the meaning of human existence is understood? -What is the conception of the universe, its origin and destiny, if there is one" What is the role of man/woman, his/her moral ends and moral relations to the universe and its creator(s), if any, or to the totality of existence? -What is the logicogenetic development of what is taken as ultimate? Are these ideas original or derivative? If derivative, from whom and how? -What is the meaning of the universe? What is the meaning of human existence? What does man/woman expect from life? What are the desires man/woman expects to be fulfilled (e.g. to harmonize the world? to live forever? to enable family, clan, society continue to survive? to be united with God or with the universe? etc.) -What is the relation between the desires, the reality in which man lives and the heaven to which he wants to go? -How is happiness or a better future visualized? What is man/woman expected to do to reach the desired happiness? -In what context do such desires make sense and in what context do they not? Do these ideas contribute to a greater and deeper understanding of the ultimate reality and meaning of human existence or experience? http://matrix.scranton.edu/uram/section1.html#A Could you imagine the horror of getting these questions at a job interview??? :-) Metta, James 16957 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 Hi James, I've been silent because I have been busy and have had some minor computer problems. I am looking forward to your final installment and hope to be able to revert to you on Monday or Tuesday. This post caught my eye because I am unsure of something: --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > For example, that tree falling in the forest I described in an early > post, that wouldn't make a 'sound' because a mind wasn't there to > produce a sound; that is not 'rupa' theory. Rupa theory would say > that the sound waves would naturally have the object of 'sound rupa' > and there would still be a sound regardless of if someone was there > to hear it or not. My understanding is that Ultimate Realities are described in four ways: - Characterisitic (lakkhana); salient quality - Function (rasa); performance of task / achivement of goal - Manifestation (paccupatthana); how it presents itself in an experience - Proximate Cause (padatthana): main condition upon which it depends In the case of the sound rupa: - Characterisitic: Impinge on ear sense base - Function: Object of ear-consciousness - Manifestation: Resort of the ear-consciousness - Proximate Cause: The four great essentials I interpret this as saying that the "rupa" sound only exists when there is an ear to hear it. I don't think that the Abhidhamma made any statements about what happened before the "sound" impinged on the ear sense base (i.e. Abhidhamma is not about physics). James, you have made some interesting points and I am looking forward to preparing a more comprhensive reply. I just wanted to jump in with this understanding of mine in case it impacts your current or future thinking (or posts). Metta, Rob M :-) 16958 From: James Mitchell Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 --- robmoult wrote: > My understanding is that Ultimate Realities are > described in four > ways: > - Characterisitic (lakkhana); salient quality > - Function (rasa); performance of task / achivement > of goal > - Manifestation (paccupatthana); how it presents > itself in an > experience > - Proximate Cause (padatthana): main condition upon > which it depends > > In the case of the sound rupa: > - Characterisitic: Impinge on ear sense base > - Function: Object of ear-consciousness > - Manifestation: Resort of the ear-consciousness > - Proximate Cause: The four great essentials > > I interpret this as saying that the "rupa" sound > only exists when > there is an ear to hear it. I don't think that the > Abhidhamma made > any statements about what happened before the > "sound" impinged on > the ear sense base (i.e. Abhidhamma is not about > physics). Rob M, Okay, you have exposed one of the biggest problems with Abhidhamma study: no one seems to have access to the original text translated into an acceptable modern language like English, French, or Spanish (Not everyone is a supreme master translator of Pali like Suan is.) I could go to my Buddhist temple where they have the entire Abhidhamma in bound volumes, written in Pali, and photocopy it for Suan to translate. Hmmm??? I'm sure he has nothing better to do! ;-) j/k If the Abhidhamma is so important, and is considered by some to be the only 'High Dharma' of the Tipitaka, why won't the expert Pali translators of the world translate it? It's not exciting enough? They don't agree with it? It's too long? All of these reasons are very questionable. www.accesstoinsight.org has this message, "Note: At present there are no texts from the Abhidhamma Pitaka available here at Access to Insight, nor do I currently plan to include them in the future." And why not? This stance is completely absurd. Even if the Abhidhamma is a provable sham, we could all learn from that reality. Censorship, even passive censorship, is unacceptable to a knowledge-based society. Okay, now that I have finished my diatribe, let me respond to this post. I have read many interpretations of the teachings of the Abhidhamma and they seem to fall into three categories (I am not going to just read one, like Nina's, and think that that is the end. There are some others and they don't interpret the Abhidhamma the same way Nina does. Since I don't have the source, I want as comprehensive a view as possible): 1. Those who don't understand the Abhidhamma or modern physics. 2. Those who understand the Abhidhamma but not modern physics. 3. Those who understand modern physics and the Abhidhamma. What are the differences? 1. Superficial analysis that goes nowhere. 2. A close approximation of what the Abhidhamma actually states. 3. An interpretation of the Abhidhamma that attempts to relate it to modern physics and consequently has to do so in a over-wrought and confusing manner. Rob, the standard of criteria that you use for the 'Ultimate Reality' of Rupa classifications is not universal through all Abhidhamma studies. I could argue this classification criteria you present as well, since it assigns 'receiver' qualifications to a by-necessity-base-object, but I don't see the point of doing that. I don't believe that these classification criteria are a true reflection of the theories contained in the Abhidhamma. You state that the Abhidhamma is not a method comparable to physics or science, and Nina states this many times in her book as well, but I see this position as an 'escape door' for the flawed theories of the Abhidhamma; and not contained within its writings. You cannot say that it describes ultimate reality and yet it doesn't describe ultimate reality. What exactly does it do? As I have written before, if the Abhidhamma stated that it was using a method to describe 'convenient' reality, I would be accepting of its contents. However, it doesn't do that and those who subscribe to its methodology don't do that either. It is presented as an ultimate reality of the universe. Back-peddling by those adherents who know better, but want to keep it around, won't do anyone any good, in my opinon. I am going to continue my presentation based on what I interpret to be pure analysis of the Abhidhamma's contents. Hopefully I know enough about physics to recognize when someone is trying to 'fit Cinderella's glass slipper on a mean step-sister's big foot'. However, please send me the source for this classification criteria of rupa that you present in this post (I am assuming you cut-and-pasted). I would like to investigate further and then respond. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16959 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 Dear James & Rob Ep, Rupas exist even if there is no experience of them. However they cannot be known or experienced if cittas (consciousness) do not arise to cognize them. Jon explained a little more on this recently: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9549.html James, Just glanced at your ‘diatribe’ (in a rush, will read more carefully later). Most the Abhidhamma texts and some of the ancient commentaries have been translated into English (mostly by PTS and none on line). Here is one extract from the Dhammasangani, first book of the Abhidhamma (p170) on sound: ***** “What is that (material) form which is the sphere of sound? That sound which is derived from the four Great Phenomena, is invisible and reacting, such as the sound of drums, of tabors, of chank-shells, of tom-toms, of singing of music; clashing sounds, manual sounds, the noise of people, the sound of the concussion of substances, of wind, of water, sounds human and other than human, or whatever other sound there is, derived from the Great phenomena, invisible and reacting - such a sound, invisible and reacting, as, by the ear, invisible and reacting, one has heard, hears, will, or may hear... ....in consequence of which sound and depending on the ear, there has arisen, arises, will, or may arise auditory contact...and...born of that auditory contact, a feeling....(or)a perception...(or)volition,,,(or)auditory cognition.....” ***** As Rob mentioned, these seem to be supported here: “- Characterisitic: Impinge on ear sense base - Function: Object of ear-consciousness - Manifestation: Resort of the ear-consciousness - Proximate Cause: The four great essentials” ***** James, glad you’re considering more about rupas in your research. As we know, understanding of dhammas can lead to insights and nibbana. Understanding of science or theories can never lead this way.(OK I’ll keep quiet again until you finish;-)) Sarah ======= Rob, in brief on your post on kamma - I understood your example of all the prompting needed to get your son to clean his room. On the otherhand, premeditated murder is likely to be a lot more weighty than non-premeditated!. I think many of the conclusions were speculative and not supported in the texts, but will be glad to see any further references you have. Certainly, with wrong view is more dangerous than without and this has plenty of support - wrong view being the greatest hindrance to the development of insight.I was looking at a section in the Netthi(The Guide) on knowledge of Ripening of Action p.134. Do you have this text? I think you’d like it. =============== 16960 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:01am Subject: Beginners' questions about rupa Dear Group, Regarding rupas - they are difficult for me to understand. I know they are not wholes/concepts, that they are different from matter in the conventional sense, that they are realities that do not experience anything and they are conditioned. In 'A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' it is said that "rupa paramattha dhamma includes 28 different kinds of rupa. Among the 28 kinds of rupa, there is one kind of rupa, visible object or colour, citta can experience through the eyes. That which appears through the eyes is the only kind of rupa that can be seen by citta. As regards the other 27 rupas, these cannot be seen by citta, but they can be experienced through the apppropriate doorways by the cittas concerned." (ch.4) and "When we are fast asleep and not dreaming, there are cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another. However, at such moments citta does not experience an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body-sense or the mind-door. The citta that does not experience an object through any of the six doors is the bhavanga-citta." (ch.7) What is happening if one is awoken by a sound, an odour, something touching the skin? Something must have experienced these rupas ... And, if one is dreaming - what is the process of dreaming? The eyes are closed, there is no conventional experiencing, but in dreams it seems rupa actually exists - I see , hear, taste, etc. metta, Christine 16961 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's gradual instruction Antony I think your point about suffering coming at the end of the gradual instruction is a good one. Suffering as an aspect of the 4th Noble truth is fully understood only by the person who is on the verge of enlightenment. And for many of those who were in this category during the Buddha's lifetime, they needed to first hear a gradual instruction before it could all make sense. However, there are also plenty of references in the teachings to suffering that are not meant just for the ears of those of advanced understanding. For example, suffering as one of the three characteristics of all conditioned phenomena is frequently mentioned. Even with the limited level of understanding that we have, it is possible to see in a certain sense how suffering can be regarded as an aspect of every part of this existence. So while we should not expect to understand suffering at a particularly deep level, I think we should not consider it to be something that is altogether beyond our comprehension. Jon --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K and all, > > Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different > to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the > Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's > gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of > sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe > only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's > mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated > and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching > particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, > its ceasing, and the path." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > So for people at a stage which is far from elevated and > lucid the Buddha may not have even mentioned the word > dukkha at all, maybe because it could be misunderstood as > saying that they have a self that is suffering, that they > are a failure etc. etc. > > Thanks for listening, > Antony. 16962 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 23, Comm Larry (and Howard in the first bit) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Way 23: Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection > of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Interesting, the choice of the term "unloveliness" here, in the light of recent discussion. I presume it is a literal translation of the Pali term "asubha" (negative of "subha", "beautiful"). Howard makes the point that reference to foulness of the body does not seem particularly helpful (or perhaps even accurate?). It may be that that expression does not carry the correct nuance of what the Buddha was trying to say. The term "unloveliness" seems to do the trick quite well – it negates any idea of beauty without suggesting foulness. > Hi all, > > Looks like contemplation of the body in the body isolates the body as > object from the objects 'feeling', 'consciousness', and 'dhamma' but > includes the characteristics of unloveliness, suffering, transiency and > soullessness. Any moment of directly experiencing one of the basic phenomena helps in a sense to separate that particular phenomenon from all other phenomena. Satipatthana means, for example, that experiences through one of the six doorways are not confused with experiences through any of the other doorways, or that the experienc*ing* of an object through a particular doorway is not confused with the object that is experienc*ed*. So I would agree that in this sense the development of awareness results in a certain isolating of the phenomena that comprise the present moment. Jon 16963 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 0:14am Subject: Kiana's letter Hi everybody, My name is Kiana. I am 12 years old. I am Chinese. Chinese is my first language and English is my second language. I study in Heep Yunn School. I know Jan. She is a girl who is studying with me in Mrs. Abbott's English service. I heard about her teacher. It was sad that he died suddenly. But there are people die and there are people born, may be Jan will meet him in the future. I wish Jan won't be sad about this. I hope all the students or people who know Mr. Walsh. Till won't be sad anymore! If he was alive, he didn't like all of you to be sad about this. Finally I want to ask a question about 'LIFE & DEATH', why there're some people who are trying to kill themselves and some are trying to save their life? I am please that you can answer my question. Love, Kiana. 16964 From: azita gill Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginners' questions about rupa --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > Regarding rupas - they are difficult for me to > understand. > I know they are not wholes/concepts, that they are > different from > matter in the conventional sense, that they are > realities that do not > experience anything and they are conditioned. In > 'A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas' it is said that "rupa paramattha > dhamma includes > 28 different kinds of rupa. Among the 28 kinds of > rupa, there is one > kind of rupa, visible object or colour, citta can > experience through > the eyes. That which appears through the eyes is the > only kind of > rupa that can be seen by citta. As regards the other > 27 rupas, these > cannot be seen by citta, but they can be experienced > through the > apppropriate doorways by the cittas concerned." > (ch.4) > and > "When we are fast asleep and not dreaming, there are > cittas arising > and falling away, succeeding one another. However, > at such moments > citta does not experience an object through the > eyes, the ears, the > nose, the tongue, the body-sense or the mind-door. > The citta that > does not experience an object through any of the six > doors is the > bhavanga-citta." (ch.7) > > What is happening if one is awoken by a sound, an > odour, something > touching the skin? Something must have experienced > these rupas ... > > And, if one is dreaming - what is the process of > dreaming? The eyes > are closed, there is no conventional experiencing, > but in dreams it > seems rupa actually exists - I see , hear, taste, > etc. > > > metta, > Christine > > dear Christine, < no need to think too much about rupa, isn't rupa appearing now? Are your eyes open as you read the screen and does not visible object appear? We think about what we see and make it into 'things' but v/object is only that which impinges on eye sense. Is sound appearing now, just sound impinging on ear sense, no 'thing' in the sound; what about 'hardness', we might call it 'chair' etc. but isn't it only hardness appearing at body sense? < I remember asking A. Sujin, a long time ago, "if my eyes are shut, is there visible object?" Her answer: "can you see anything?" This stunned me for a while, bce I think I didn't understand visible object, and I thought it was a clever question. Now it makes sense, eyes open - v/object; eyes shut - no v/o. Not so easy with the other sense doorways, I mean, to block the object impinging on that part. doorway - sort of easier to shut the eyes than to block the ears, nose etc. I may be leading you up the garden path here, Chris, and if I am someone will jump on me, but I believe as beginners we can't help thinking we have 'control', so here's a little game. Think about the various sense doors and the objects which impinge on them and you'll find them all around you - every second that you are awake. < Dreaming is just thinking; and citta experiences the object which woke 'you' up. Bhavanga citta falls away, a citta experiencing a sense object arises and then falls away, another citta arises, experiences an object and falls away, and on and on and on.............. > looking forward to seeing you in BKK. > Azita 16965 From: azita gill Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipaka Cittas --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > There are two types of vipaka cittas; akusala vipaka > cittas and > kusala vipaka cittas. They are identical, except > that they spring > from different conditions (akusala cittas vs. kusala > cittas). > Azita: therefore, they are not identical, by the fact that one is kusala and the other is akusala..... < > However, we also know that there is not one single > condition for > anything. I take this as meaning that any one vipaka > citta can have > multiple factors conditioning it, including the > accumulated cetana > from multiple past javana cittas (some akusala and > some kusala). > > Since for a specific vipaka citta, some of the > conditioning javana > cittas may have been kusala and some may have been > akusala, does it > make sense to split the definition of vipaka cittas > into two > distinct categories? > > Any comments? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > dear Rob. I do not think that kusala cittas can be a cause for akusala vipaka citta. I understand it to be quite the opposite. I have never heard of this before. < Cheers, Azita > 16966 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 5:37am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State: Oops: The Mistake Dear Dhamma friends In my message 16857, I made a grammartical mistake. Only today (15 November 2002) when I reviewed the message, I discovered it. I have placed the paragraph with a mistake within two lines. The mistake was an unnecesary "not" where the sentence was started with "No". As one "No" and one "Not" make one "Yes", the sentence produced an unintended misleading meaning. For the reasons of context, I have reproduced the message. Please kindly correct and read it as follows. "No self-respecting, liguistically mature Pali scholar would translate the term "abhuutam" in the definition of nibbaana in Section 73, Tatiyanibbaanapa.tisamyutta Suttam, Udaana Pali, as UNTRUTH even though "abhuutam" can mean "untruth" in in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya." I know that sensitive readers could easily spot the mistake. But, just in case, I provided the correction. With kind regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Christine, Nina, and All How are you? Recently, Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in his message "On The Luminous Mind" the following: "A cautious principle that I follow is to avoid constructing novel interpretations of the Dhamma on the basis of a few isolated canonical passages, particularly those in verse (not the case here). It is always best to build one?s interpretations upon those ideas that are found repeatedly in the Nikayas, and then to assume that any apparently deviant statement can somehow be interpreted in a way consistent with these main ?building blocks? of interpretation." Sayadaw's advice above is what the Buddha would call "Yoniso manasikaaro". Yoniso manasikaaro is one of the causes for a healthy consciousness to arise. I would like to translate yoniso manasikaaro literally as the making of an object in the mind sensibly". "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. Because it is part of a verse, we need to take extra care when we try to make sense of it. We also need to check what the Arahant commentators and the traditional ascetic commentators had to say on the matter. And, we also need to remember what 99.99 % of the Buddha's repeated teachings convey in Pali Tipitaka texts. Moreover, we also need to be aware of the linguistic anomalies in natural languages such as Pali and English. There is such a linguistic anomaly as homonym. A homonym is "a word pronounced and often spelled the same as another but having a different meaning." It is very common for the poets to use homonyms and synonyms in their poems and verses to give the readers the unusual feel-good factor and unexpected insights. The verse in Section 499, Keva.t.ta Suttam is no different from other poems in provoking the readers with its use of homonyms and contrasts. "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta verse is a HOMONYM. I am a multi-ligual. When we learn a foreign language, we aim to become more and more mature and sophisticated in the new language we are learning. Once we have mastered the grammar and syntax rules, we need to handle words progressively and sensitively. Words with the same looks and sounds change their meanings in different contexts. One of the most blatant examples of homonyms, one with loftiest meaning and the other with the lowliest meaning is "abhuutam". "Abhuutam", when describing nibbaana in Udaana, means "neither caused by others, nor self-caused". But, "abhuutam" in the phrase "abhuutam ataccham" in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya means "untruth". ____________________________________________________________________ No self-respecting, liguistically mature Pali scholar would not ??? translate the term "abhuutam" in the definition of nibbaana in Section 73, Tatiyanibbaanapa.tisamyutta Suttam, Udaana Pali, as UNTRUTH even though "abhuutam" can mean "untruth" in in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya. ______________________________________________________________________ Therefore, the term "Viññaa.nam" in "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 and in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo must be treated as a HOMONYM and translated according to the context by examining the message of the verse as a whole, not just that term in isolation. By carefully reading and examining the verse as whole and treating the term "Viññaa.nam" as a HOMONYM, and by consulting the commentaries, I reached the conclusion that we cannot translate the term "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta Suttam verse as consciousness. We can leave "Viññaa.nam" as it is without translating it. We never translate the term "nibbaana", do we? Or if we must translate it, we can translate it as nibbaana in line with the commentary on Keva.t.ta Suttam. Some Pali scholars who think that Pali language does not have homonyms, and who think they know better than the standard commentaries may translate as they please. With kind reagrd Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 16967 From: James Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > As Rob mentioned, these seem to be supported here: > "- Characterisitic: Impinge on ear sense base > - Function: Object of ear-consciousness > - Manifestation: Resort of the ear-consciousness > - Proximate Cause: The four great essentials" > ***** > James, glad you're considering more about rupas in your research. As we > know, understanding of dhammas can lead to insights and nibbana. > Understanding of science or theories can never lead this way.(OK I'll keep > quiet again until you finish;-)) Dear Sarah, Okay, I am confused here. How can you tell me that the above break down of rupa (using terms like: Characteristic, proximate cause, ear sense base, function, object, etc) is not a science or theory? My mind tells me that this is a scientific theory of ultimate reality. Granted, it is based in a metaphysical approach, but it is still dealing with a very real and sensory world. It is attempting to explain that world in terms of how it should perceived as to its 'true nature'. That isn't science? I don't believe that science and dharma are always separate. You seem to be stereotyping. Having read two biographies of Albert Einstein, I can say that I consider him to be a scientist and a Buddhist. He wrote that he believed in Buddhism, lived a simple life, followed the five precepts, and wanted to help the world reach new understanding. He didn't label himself a Buddhis, because he avoided labels and organized religion. However, that could be viewed as even more Buddhist than 'Buddhists'. Pure intellectual understanding of either science or dharma is not going to lead to enlightenment. I am not going to continue with my analysis of rupa if I am barking up the wrong tree. Could someone please explain to me how the ultimate reality of the Abhidhamma is different than the ultimate reality of science? I thought there was only one ultimate reality...since it is supposed to be the 'ultimate'. Metta, James 16968 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: --- robmoult wrote: > My understanding is that Ultimate Realities are > described in four ways: > - Characterisitic (lakkhana); salient quality > - Function (rasa); performance of task / achivement of goal > - Manifestation (paccupatthana); how it presents itself in an > experience > - Proximate Cause (padatthana): main condition upon > which it depends < snip > However, please send me the source for this classification criteria of rupa that you present in this post (I am assuming you cut-and-pasted). I would like to investigate further and then respond. KKT: Allow me to pop in here. In Mahayana Buddhism, Mind or Buddha Nature is posited as << ultimate >> and is described in three ways: __Essence __Characteristic or Manifestation __Function Same thing in Dzogchen of Tibetan Buddhism where Rigpa or the Primordial State is described in three ways: __Essence which is Emptiness __Nature which is Clarity __Energy which is Manifestation Metta, KKT 16969 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipaka Cittas Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., azita gill wrote: > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > > > There are two types of vipaka cittas; akusala vipaka > > cittas and > > kusala vipaka cittas. They are identical, except > > that they spring > > from different conditions (akusala cittas vs. kusala > > cittas). > > Azita: therefore, they are not identical, by the > fact that one is kusala and the other is akusala..... I believe that they are identical; they are rootless and therefore not inherently "good" or "bad"; they have the same set of cetasikas and perform the exact same function. The only difference between them is that one was caused by a kusala citta (with roots) and one was caused by an akusala citta (with roots). They inherit the "kusala" and "akusala" name from the citta that caused them, not because they have any inherent differences. After thinking about it some more and discussing it with Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (he is teaching an Abhidhamma class this week and I am attending), I have come to the conclusion that there is a one-for- one correspondence between rooted citta (the cause) and the vipaka citta (the effect). There are many other conditioning factors, but only one rooted citta as cause for each vipaka citta. As an analogy, a tree is conditioned by the seed, rain, sun and soil; however the type of tree is conditioned by the type of seed. > > dear Rob. I do not think that kusala cittas can > be a cause for akusala vipaka citta. I understand it > to be quite the opposite. I have never heard of this > before. You are correct, Azita, as mentioned above, there is a one-for-one correspondence between seed and type of tree. On the other hand, akusala states can be a cause for kusala states. For example in the first link of the Paticcasamuppada, avijja (moha, which is akusala) conditions sankhara (including kusala). Specifically, this is achieved through Object Condition, when one comprehends by means of insight that delusion leads to unhappy states, or through Natural Decisive Support Condition, when delusion (conceit, vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16970 From: robmoult Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > I am not going to continue with my analysis of rupa if I am barking > up the wrong tree. Could someone please explain to me how the > ultimate reality of the Abhidhamma is different than the ultimate > reality of science? I thought there was only one ultimate > reality...since it is supposed to be the 'ultimate'. By his own admission, the Buddha only taught a very small percentage of what he knew. Therefore, we can say that the Buddha's Dhamma is not "ultimate" because there are many things left out. The criteria used by the Buddha as to what to include was clearly stated; he only taught what leads to the extinction of suffering. Science has a very different goal; science wants to create a model for the world. In Buddhism, "Ultimate Realities" are described according to characteristic / function / manifestation / proximate cause. The definition of "manifestation" is "how the ultimate reality presents itself in an experience". This definition underscores the focus of Buddhist "Ultimate Realities" as phenomenological. There is a second aspect of Buddhist "Ultimate Realities" which is not phenomenological, and that is the analysis of the five aggregates. I believe that the Buddha undertook this analysis to show that there is no self in the aggregate of rupa. Again, the Buddha's purpose was to help to eliminate suffering by expounding on anatta. In brief, I believe that rupas (or elements) are only mentioned in two contexts in the Suttas or in the Abhidhamma: 1. Phenomenologically; though their impact on the sense door 2. Analytically; as a component of the body devoid of self These two contexts cover a very small percentage of "ultimate"; the remainder is primarily in the realm of "science". I would be interested in what the others have to say about my perspective. Metta, Rob M :-) 16971 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:12am Subject: Pali: sati sampajanna Dear all, I compared the Pali with Ven. Soma's translation of the Co to the Satip. sutta. Way 24, in English, (I lost it) but it is about sampajano , satimaa, here is my attempt: sampajaanoti sampaja~n~nasa"nkhaatena ~naa.nena samannaagato. N: the word sampajaano, clearly comprehending, means endowed with understanding which is called clear comprehension. satimaati kaayapariggaahikaaya satiyaa samannaagato. aya.m pana yasmaa satiyaa aaramma.na.m pariggahetvaa pa~n~naaya anupassati, na hi sativirahitassa anupassanaa naama atthi. N: The word satima, mindful, means endowed with sati which takes up the body as object. After having taken up the object with sati, he clearly comprehends it with understanding, there is no contemplation for someone without sati. tenevaaha``sati~nca khvaaha.m, bhikkhave, sabbatthika.m vadaamii''ti (sa.m ni 5.234). N: Therefore he said, I declare indeed that there should be sati on all occasions." tasmaa ettha ``kaaye kaayaanupassii viharatii''ti ettaavataa kaayaanupassanaasatipa.t.thaanakamma.t.thaana.m vutta.m hoti. N:Therefore here, the words, " he dwells contemplating the body in the body," is called to that extent the meditation subject of satipa.t.thaana of contemplation of the body. Remarks: the last sentence seems to be missing in Soma. Larry, we have again anupassati: this kind of contemplation is not thinking, and there must be sati, it must be kusala. Also there must be a specific object of awareness. And, as Sarah reminded us, all rupas are included in rupakaya. Their characteristics can appear one at a time, there can be sati and panna: sampajano satimaa. I used the word taking up, for pariggahii (pariga'nhati): it can also mean: examine. Soma has: lays hold of. My grammar is with mistakes, I am sure. Subco. is following: satisampaja~n~nenaati atisampaja~n~naggaha.nena. N:with sati sampaja~n~na, by mindfulness and clear comprehension means: by grasping with thorough comprehension. (ati is an enforcement: excessive) sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca. N: The words , the meditation subjects on all occasions, mean: recollection of the Buddha, loving-kindness, mindfulness of death, and meditation of foulness. ida~nhi catukka.m yoginaa parihariyamaana.m ``sabbatthikakamma.t.thaana''nti vuccati N: This set of four meditations which is guarded by the yogi (practinioner), he called "the meditation subjects on all occasions". atisampaja~n~nabalena avicchinnassa tassa pariharitabbattaa, satiyaa vaa samatho vutto tassaa samaaddhikkhandhena sa"ngahitattaa. N:They should be guarded by the power of thorough comprehension, uninterruptedly, and with regard to sati, samatha, calm, is mentioned because of its being included in the group of concentration, samaadhi. Remarks: as we know sati, together with right effort and right concentration are the calm of the eightfold Path (whereas right understanding and right thinking are the wisdom, and right speech, action and livelihood are the sila of the eightfold Path). The four meditation subjects are very suitable for daily life, for all occasions, sabbatthika. I am glad this is stressed here. it is an elaboration of the Co's quote: sati on all occasions. Nina. 16972 From: James Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 Rob M, You little Devil! :-) You knew this all along, you were waiting for me to expound for days on scientific realities, and then you were going to drop the boom on me! Clever... Of course this explanation is brilliant; I am not sure why I didn't come across it stated so well in all of my reading on the Abhidhamma, and I will shut up about the Abhidhamma now. There is no reason for me to try to disprove it using science because it is taking a different approach. (And my last post was going to be intense...but I am not going to write it now...the wind is out of my sails :-) I am still skeptical that the Buddha taught it (because that story of it's origin is quite ridiculous) but that doesn't prove anything. I was approaching it with a different mind-set because my reading kept saying it was Ultimate Reality. To me, ultimate is ultimate....but you are correct, to Buddhism, ultimate is what leads to Nibbana, not what leads to a model of the universe. I will go back and re-study the Abhidhamma with this new perspective. Thank you for explaining. (But you should have done it much sooner...rascal! ;-) Metta, James 16973 From: Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 25, Comm. Way 25: "Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief. With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body." Hi all, As this is a mundane path I think the abandoning of the hindrances can only be partial or temporary. Otherwise only arahants could practice satipatthana. Of course when sati arises the hindrances cannot arise with it but sati may also project the general good intention of abandoning the hindrances. Abandoning "the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body" (and feeling, citta & dhamma) might necessitate a certain amount of bravery, if not fearlessness. This would relate to our previous threads on fear. Also it is interesting that anatta is counted as an undesirable. The hindrances (nivarana) are sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & remorse, and sceptical doubt. Larry 16974 From: Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa is Rubbish-4 In a message dated 11/15/2002 5:43:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Dear Sarah, > > Okay, I am confused here. How can you tell me that the above break > down of rupa (using terms like: Characteristic, proximate cause, ear > sense base, function, object, etc) is not a science or theory? My > mind tells me that this is a scientific theory of ultimate reality. > Granted, it is based in a metaphysical approach, but it is still > dealing with a very real and sensory world. It is attempting to > explain that world in terms of how it should perceived as to > its 'true nature'. That isn't science? I don't believe that > science and dharma are always separate. You seem to be > stereotyping. Having read two biographies of Albert Einstein, I can > say that I consider him to be a scientist and a Buddhist. He wrote > that he believed in Buddhism, lived a simple life, followed the five > precepts, and wanted to help the world reach new understanding. He > didn't label himself a Buddhis, because he avoided labels and > organized religion. However, that could be viewed as even more > Buddhist than 'Buddhists'. Pure intellectual understanding of > either science or dharma is not going to lead to enlightenment. > > I am not going to continue with my analysis of rupa if I am barking > up the wrong tree. Could someone please explain to me how the > ultimate reality of the Abhidhamma is different than the ultimate > reality of science? I thought there was only one ultimate > reality...since it is supposed to be the 'ultimate'. > > Metta, James > James, This is well put by you. The difference I see between dhamma and science is that dhamma is a science/psychology/religion designed to lead the investigator to liberation from suffering and in doing so the investigator is able to "experience" the highest truth. Science, on the other hand, has a variety of goals and personal liberation is probably/usually not one of them. I have found several instances where modern science has shot holes in Abhidhamma Theory...such as Abhidhamma's "the heart base" as a base for consciousness, such as the visual and audible objects not coming into contact with eye and ear, etc. I think that its best to use every tool available to discover truth...and that wisdom is using that truth to attain the highest happiness. As long as it doesn't become too much of a distraction, I see no problem with incorporating modern science. TG 16975 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:41pm Subject: Hi. Hello, Jan. My name is Se Yeon Hwang. I am thirteen years old and my nationality is Korean. I go to American International School in Hong Kong. My hobbies are playing computer games, but occasionally reading books. It's very hard to understand and admit someone's death. Even though I haven't experienced that sort of event, but I think I know how it feels. It's just awful.Jan, it must have been a surprising shock to you. As what Ms. Christine Forsyth have said to you, this world is crazy. We can't understand why these bad lucks happens to such kind minded people. It's good that you have your own religion Jan. However I am Catholic. What I think in my religious way is that your teacher Mr. Wash-till would be with you all the times wherever you are and would be always there for you to protect you from the heaven. Sorry that I taught you in different way, but this is all what I can advice you. Actually, it could've be more supportive if I was budhist, hehe. Jan, I hope you could feel better. Just imagine he is happy up there, or perhaps in your way that he might recarnate in our real life during the future. Best wishes, Se Yeon Hwang. 16976 From: James Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:48pm Subject: Heart to Heart Heart to Heart "In our modern culture men and women are able to interact with one another in many ways: they can sing dance or play together with little difficulty but their ability to talk together about subjects that matter deeply to them seems invariable to lead to dispute, division and often to violence." -- David Bohm I want to explore something that has been on my mind lately; I will call it "The Dharma of Dialogue". I will start off with a confession, I find myself lacking in my ability to effectively communicate with other people in a dialogue format. For example, I once formed a Buddhist Yahoo group of my own, allowed its members to post, and within a week or two the group turned into a combat zone. I deleted that group and formed another one where only I could post; no discussion was allowed. But I did post e-mails members had written to me with my replies. In that way, I could filter out any messages critical of me. Why did I do that? Well, at the time I blamed the members. I thought that they were just super-critical hotheads who wanted to pick apart everything I wrote. Now I see that I was also very much to blame. I responded in ways to their posts that resulted in them becoming more critical, resulting in others jumping into the fray, and then I had a swarm of killer bees on my hands. Why? And why is this question important to us all in the Yahoo groups as we pursue understanding of the dharma together? The Lord Buddha didn't speak much about how to conduct effective dialogues because his situation was simply a case of him speaking/teaching the dhamma and his monks listening. Obviously, we don't have the same situation today. We don't have a Buddha to teach us directly so it is through the `synergies' of our combined dialogue that we many `bring life and immediacy' to the dharma. I think that all of us who participate in these Yahoo groups want to have a `Heart to Heart' dialogue about the dharma so that we may learn from each other. Unfortunately, what often happens is that we have an `Ego to Ego' dialogue about the dharma so that we may outwit each other. Is this unusual? Are Buddhists the only ones who do this? No. According to social research, all human beings, who are not enlightened, do this very naturally. Allow me quote some findings from David Bohm, in his study "On Dialogue": If we look carefully at what we generally take to be reality we begin to see that it includes a collection of concepts, memories and reflexes colored by our personal needs, fears, and desires, all of which are limited and distorted by the boundaries of language and the habits of our history, sex and culture….For example, we do not notice that our attitude toward another person may be profoundly affected by the way we think and feel about someone else who might share certain aspects of his behavior or even of his appearance. Instead, we assume that our attitude toward her arises directly from her actual conduct. Dialogue is often ineffective because the person participating in the dialogue doesn't pay attention to how his/her thinking is affecting perception. This is difficult to do because the dialogue may be occurring too rapidly to observe one's own thoughts and perceptions. I want to share, in brief, what David Bohm's main suggestions for effective group dialogue: Suspension-Suspension of thoughts, impulses, judgments, etc., lies at the very heart of Dialogue…Suspension involves exposing your reactions, impulses, feelings and opinions in such a way that they can be seen and felt within your own psyche and also be reflected back by others in the group. It does not mean repressing or suppressing or, even, postponing them. It means, simply, giving them your serious attention so that their structures can be noticed while they are actually taking place. [J comment: mindfulness]. Leadership-At least one or, preferably two, experienced facilitators are essential. Their role should be to occasionally point out situations that might seem to be presenting sticking points for the group, in other words, to aid the process of collective proprioception, but these interventions should never be manipulative nor obtrusive. Leaders are participants just like everybody else. Guidance, when it is felt to be necessary, should take the form of "leading from behind" and preserve the intention of making itself redundant as quickly as possible. If the Buddha had anything to say on this subject, other than `Right Speech' (which he explained for the individual) I would quote it and explore it in detail, but I am not aware of any such teachings. If anyone else is, please let me know. So, in summary, if we are to have `Heart to Heart' talks and really learn from each other, we need to begin to be mindful of the mind processes during that dialogue and open our hearts to others so that we may see them correctly. Consequently, we may see us correctly too. Just thought I would share. Metta, James 16977 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:01pm Subject: Religion, life and death letter Hi everyone: My name is Philip Chui and I am 12 years old. I am British, but I live in Hong Kong. My dad is born in here, but my mother is born in China. My first language is Cantonese, but I also speak English very well (He-He!). I also speak Mandarin Chinese. My hobbies are playing soccer and computer games. I am a 7th Grade student in Hong Kong International School, and I have just moved to this school this year. I have learnt some Christian knowledge in my former school, and the religion classes in HKIS this year makes me even know more about Christianity. I'm writing to this discussion group because I have read the letter a girl named Jan sent to you guys earlier, and I want to make an opinion about the letter. The letter said that Jan's teacher Mr. Wash-till had died from the Bali Bombings, and she believed that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate. I personally agree with this point. As a half-Christian, I believe that if a good person dies, he would go to heaven and get everlasting life. I think Islamic is a peaceful religion, and it should be respected. There are only some aggressive Muslims which introduce the Jihad (Holy War) to the people, and they do terrorist attacks to the American People. We are always saying that Muslims are bad because they do attacks to people. I think if we want a peaceful world, we must respect all religions. If you guys have any opinions about life and death or everlasting life or Islam, please tell me. I hope to hear from you guys again. Yours sincerely, Philip Chui 16978 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Beginners' questions about rupa Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > What is happening if one is awoken by a sound, an > odour, something > touching the skin? Something must have > experienced these rupas ... When we are fast asleep, the mind doesn't experience the objects of this world, namely, through the six doorways. When you hear a sound (instead of being asleep, or thinking about the sound), the sound is being experienced through the ear doorway. When you are thinking about the sound (which often immediately follows after hearing through the ear doorway), the object (concept of sound, being it low sound, high sound, animal's, people's, etc.) is being experienced through the mind doorway. If you hear a sound and wake up from being asleep, the mind processes experience the sound through the ear doorway (and the mind doorway) interrupting bhavanga. If you don't fall back asleep immediately, then you may become aware that you are awake. When we are not really fast asleep, sometimes we mix up dreaming (thinking) with the actual objects at the 6 doorways. I sometimes dream of not being to move, feeling very heavy, only to actually wake up (a bit) and realized that I was sleeping on my arm (besides the natural heaviness of the rupa [since it is unsuitable for moving]) before I fall back to sleep. In this case, I was feeling heavy through the body doorway, and thinking about the story of this heaviness in a different situation (that is not close to reality). You can really see vipallasa of thoughts / memory in this case. > And, if one is dreaming - what is the process of > dreaming? The eyes > are closed, there is no conventional > experiencing, but in dreams it > seems rupa actually exists - I see , hear, taste, etc. > Thinking about visible objects, sound, taste, (insted of actual experiencing) may fool us to think that we are really experiencing those things. Even right now, we may feel like we are seeing all the time even though we are not seeing when we hear, think, taste, and smell etc. Until we learn the differences between seeing and thinking (and other realities), it may be difficult to describe (correctly) what we have just experienced. kom 16979 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Religion, life and death letter Dear Philip, My name is Kom Tukovinit. I am a Chinese-Thai who lives near San Francisco, California. I was born in Bangkok, Thailand, but have been living in the United States for 16 years. My first language is Thai, and my second language is English, but I am afraid I speak either languages just adequately. I tried to learn Mandarin Chinese once (or twice), but the things that I remember most is I fall asleep in class (which I am sure Mrs. Abbot doesn't let you :-) ) I don't know much about everlasting life, but I am trying to learn about this life as much as I can. What I have learned is that, all the things that we feel and experience don't seem to last very long. None of us seems to feel happy or sad all the time. One moment we are happy (like when we are with friends, playing, eating, and when we see our relatives), and the next moment we are sad (like when we see what we don't like, hear sad news, or have to say good-bye to friends). This seems to happen to most people, so I expect myself (and other people) to be happy sometimes, and be sad sometimes. The other thing I have learned (learnt) is that we don't seem to have much control over what makes us happy or sad. We may be hearing happy song now (making us happy), and then the next moment the song is turned on too loud (making us unhappy). We don't have controls over what we will see, will hear, even a few minutes from now. Seeing something we like will make us happy, and seeing something we dislike will make us unhappy, and since we don't have controls over what we will see, we are bound to be both happy and unhappy, both uncontrollably. I think learning all the things about ourselves right now give us a better idea of what we could expect in the future. Also, the knowledge gives us courage to cope with both happiness and unhappiness better. Life is going right now, and I hope whenever we have a chance, we take the opportunity to learn about it. Phillip, it's very nice of you to write, and I hope to hear from you again. Sincerely Yours, kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > If you guys have any opinions about life and death or > everlasting life or Islam, please tell me. > 16980 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 1:25am Subject: Trip to LA, Specially for James. Dear Friends and James, after David;s and Dhammarati's ordination I am flying from North Carolina to Los Angeles, arriving to LA at 1036 am. Flying Delta airlines, at terminal 5. Will stay at the airport until 830 pm to take Air New Zealand back to Australia. If you James or any other person around there wants to have lunch with me let me know. I am leaving Australia on Wednesday morning(Tuesday in USA). Metta. Ven. Yanatharo 16981 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 1:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] Trip to LA, Specially for James. Correction. I forgot to put the day. Arriving LA on Monday 25 Nov at 1036 am. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu [mailto:sanz@n...] Enviado el: Sábado, Noviembre 16, 2002 08:25 p.m. Para: Dharmma List CC: Dhamma Study Group Asunto: [dsg] Trip to LA, Specially for James. Dear Friends and James, after David;s and Dhammarati's ordination I am flying from North Carolina to Los Angeles, arriving to LA at 1036 am. Flying Delta airlines, at terminal 5. Will stay at the airport until 830 pm to take Air New Zealand back to Australia. If you James or any other person around there wants to have lunch with me let me know. I am leaving Australia on Wednesday morning(Tuesday in USA). Metta. Ven. Yanatharo 16982 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:35pm Subject: Letter to James Dear James, It's me again!Janice. Thank you for the loser poem again. I like the phrase when it said, I lost my head and I cannot find it anymore as all the senses are on the head and the person's head is lost. In fact I really enjoy your poems.They are so hilarious. I also like the bit you tried to take Mr Wash-till's name and made it into a educational joke. I thought it was a very meaningful paragraph. Why is the Buddha your religious teacher? Is he very special to you ? Actually there is a ceremony in the Chinese International School to celebrate Mr. Walsh Till's life at 3:00pm on November 16th (Saturday). His wife has just comeback to Hong Kong. She will be teaching again during Christmas. Now she is just chatting with teachers and staying at home. That is all for this letter! Please write back soon! Janice Chung 16983 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:55am Subject: Dear Robert Dear Robert, I go to the French International School and I'm in the French stream but I would like to go to an English boarding school and be a sports photographer.With my parents divorced it is very tiring because I have to go back and forth. I feel that we should stop pulloting because ther is a hole in the O-zone and that we should stop cutting down trees because the animals will have no where else to live. The rebirth of us ( read the first letter ) is very important for Gods, animals, humans and insects or else the animals, Gods, humans and the insects children would have no soul. What do you and Buddhist think about rebirth and animals? From Charles P.S:Jan helped me with spelling. 16984 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: Heart to Heart Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: Heart to Heart < snip > So, in summary, if we are to have `Heart to Heart' talks and really learn from each other, we need to begin to be mindful of the mind processes during that dialogue and open our hearts to others so that we may see them correctly. Consequently, we may see us correctly too. Just thought I would share. KKT: << True >> dialogue in the sense of sharing opinion, knowledge and understanding is very difficult, James. I'd like to share with you this story: Never argue with a fool - De Mello The Master argued with no one for he knew that what the "arguer" sought was confirmation of his beliefs, not the Truth. He once showed them the value of an argument: "Does a slice of bread fall with the buttered side up or down?" "With the buttered side down, of course." "No, with the buttered side up." "Let's put it to the test." So a slice of bread was buttered and thrown up in the air. It fell-buttered side up! "I win!" "Only because I made a mistake," "What mistake?" "I obviously buttered the wrong side." BTW, everybody on this list is very nice and gentle. It's a compliment. Metta, KKT 16985 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 4:33am Subject: Re: Heart to Heart Hello James, Thank you for sharing a little about your past adventures in internet group communication. I don't find you difficult to communicate with - you are articulate and enthusiastic, mostly I enjoy your posts and they always give me lots to think about. I can see how David Bohm's points would apply within a size limited group, where intra-group dynamics are predictable to an extent, where people are in the same room and can see and hear each other, where there is a group objective and a time limited discussion - but I wonder how it could apply to a multi-cultural mix of people like dsg- ers, isolated and far apart, still living in their own very different dominant cultures, some discussing in a second language, some only virtual identities with no clues to age/gender/ nationality, different time zones, trying to discuss multiple topics with no time limit and without visual or aural clues to assist. I agree with "If we look carefully at what we generally take to be reality we begin to see that it includes a collection of concepts, memories and reflexes colored by our personal needs, fears, and desires, all of which are limited and distorted by the boundaries of language and the habits of our history, sex and culture…." I would add that I believe our 'accumulations' are much more powerful than DB states - having been added to throughout beginningless time over the course of many rebirths. There may be other factors to consider concerning email lists. Harmonious and fruitful dialogue can depend a lot on whom you are talking to. If it is a small homogenous group of friends/colleagues, they will be able to communicate quickly and casually, knowing each others background. thought patterns, and reactions. But if one doesn't know the make-up of a group (as with email lists) I feel it is very wise to proceed gently, and with utmost caution and tact. As we know, most clues for accurate communication come through sight and sound, expressions, postures, gestures, intonation etc. The actual words are the very least of it. Even with all these clues, many of us have difficulty still. On email groups we are forced to try to communicate with about 80% of what is needed, missing. I believe this means we should communicate at a much slower pace and with carefulness to ensure no misunderstanding or offence. I think it is wise to adopt a more thoughtful, less impulsive style than we would use for normal face to face, own cultural group, interaction. I think I may have mentioned before, that at work the most heated misunderstandings happen between the Aussies, the English, North Americans, South Africans, and New Zealanders - mainly because they all think they speak the same language - English :) Culture rules over language. [Why don't they 'think' like us? :)} I think it is extremely important to be sensitive to the fact that ones' own cultural way of communicating may not be seen as skilful, or even acceptable, by others in the rest of the world. It may be seen as hurtful or even deliberately offensive and too aggressive, when it is not intended in that way at all. One may never know this as the others probably will not mention what they are feeling/thinking. They may just not respond further. Perhaps this is a pointer for us to learn about the background cultures of others on the List. I reflect on my own work area with scores of different ethnic groups trying to live together and communicate harmoniously - with some cultures, particularly from Asia/Pacific areas, ways of presenting personal opinions can differ significantly - direct disagreement and criticism is to be avoided at all costs. Rather, drawing out of the other persons opinion, asking courteous open ended questions, tentatively suggesting different interpretations, and agreeing with what can be agreed with, often leads to a satisfying result a lot quicker than the debating style discussion. Sometimes it is even better to allow a discussion to lapse for a while at a certain point and go back to it some days later. This is hard to do if one is enthusiastic about the topic, and used to 'quick-fire' dialogue - but in the long run, it is often more effective. I find this is very difficult to remember at times, especially when debating and demolishing the arguments of others with surgical precision is an admired skill taught in our schools. Dialogue is really an intricate dance. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > I want to explore something that has been on my mind lately; I will > call it "The Dharma of Dialogue". I will start off with a > confession, <<>> > So, in summary, if we are to have `Heart to Heart' talks and really > learn from each other, we need to begin to be mindful of the mind > processes during that dialogue and open our hearts to others so that > we may see them correctly. Consequently, we may see us correctly > too. Just thought I would share. > > Metta, James 16986 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:52am Subject: Re: Dear Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > I go to the French International School and I'm in > the French stream but I would like to go to an English > boarding school and be a sports photographer.With my > parents divorced it is very tiring because I have > to go back and forth. ________________ Dear Charles, I understand. 2 of my children live with me in Japan most of the time and have to go to a Japanese school where they are the only non- Japanese. And no one speaks English. It was hard but now they like it. They are now in new Zealand for a year to bring up their English. I might send my son to a boarding school there as I like it that they have small classes. He visited and was impressed too. > > I feel that we should stop pulloting because ther > is a hole in the O-zone and that we should stop > cutting down trees because the animals will have no > where else to live. The rebirth of us ( read the first > letter ) is very important for Gods, animals, humans > and insects or else the animals, Gods, humans and the > insects children would have no soul. What do > you and Buddhist think about rebirth and animals? ____________ I think animals and gods are just like us. They have bad and good things through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and then there is the liking or disliking of these. Robert 16987 From: James Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 8:04am Subject: Re: Heart to Heart Hey Everyone, Just a word of explanation, this post is not meant as a critique of this group or inspired by this group. Actually, it was inspired by my recent re-involvement in another Buddhist group; my being immediately harrassed; and other members using the profanity (which is NEVER Right Speech, under any circumstances) in a post as an opportunity to be funny. Moderators tried to point the dialogue back into the proper direction, the dhamma, as is their purpose in an learning dialogue. I and another member naively wrote posts about 'Right Speech', as if we were moderators, which isn't our responsibility in a dialogue. This inspired other members to cleverly question the role of the moderators and question the Buddhist practice of others members (including their grammatical skills...geez!). This is why I wrote this post. This breakdown in communication I played a role in was the result of 'ego to ego' communication and not 'heart to heart'. I did not post this message in that group because I thought I had already done enough damage as it was; and may just stay away forever; but I wanted to express my thoughts. And this post is not a critique of that group and it really shouldn't be discussed in this group. Moments, be them good or bad, are transient and opportunities to learn. I use the experiences that happen to me to learn dharma, I don't learn simply from books. And I am sharing because that is why I am in this group...to learn through dialogue. This group is excellent, but not perfect either. I mean, to let rif-raf like me in it doesn't say much for its standards! LOL! j/k. Seriously, there is no reason to rest on any laurels. Mara will take any opportunity to strike and 'true dialogue' is one area where Mara excels. I just wanted to stress that dialogue is most effective if people realize that every thought is processed in a web of ego and often gets stuck there and that moderators should be respected for their special role and equal membership in a dialogue setting. Metta, James 16988 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 8:39am Subject: Re: Heart to Heart Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: Hey Everyone, < snip > I just wanted to stress that dialogue is most effective if people realize that every thought is processed in a web of ego and often gets stuck there KKT: I agree with you on this point. For many years I've been participating in different Buddhist and other spiritual lists, this is my << practice >>: constantly observing any movement and reaction of << my >> ego, usually they are very subtle to perceive. I've benefitted alot from this practice, much more than gaining some knowledge because to acquire more knowledge, one can learn more effectively from different websites than participating in some forums. Peace, KKT 16989 From: James Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trip to LA, Specially for James. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > > Correction. I forgot to put the day. Arriving LA on Monday 25 Nov at 1036 > am. Ven. Yanatharo Ven. Yanatharo, Hmmm...maybe. Let me check with the bhikkhu's at my temple and see if any of them would like to take a trip to LA to visit you at the airport; then we can visit and stay at some temples while there (always a cheap way to travel ;-). I took some monks on a trip to LA a few years back and we visited many temples. There is a new temple in Chino Valley I went to that had just opened. I would like to go back. One temple was really beautiful and huge; I think its Taiwanese but I can't remember the name. There were mainly nuns there. I put a picture in the pictures section, close to your picture Ven. Yanatharo! Maybe you recognize it? Anyway, I will find out and get back to you. Blessings and I hope you enjoy the ordination. Metta, James 16990 From: James Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:27am Subject: Re: Letter to James Hi Star Kid! (AKA Janice) I am glad that you enjoyed the poems. I enjoy poems that are either very, very happy, or very, very sad. Helps me keep my head on straight... :-) I am glad that you appreciated my joke about Mr. Walsh-Till's name. Smile at everything you can in life. :-) A smile is a reflection of your true self inside. Don't you feel more alive when you are smiling than when you are frowning? I have two names for my e-mail accounts: `Buddha True' and `Buddha Smile'. To me, they both mean the same thing. Yes, the Lord Buddha is my religious teacher. He is my religious teacher because he teaches, I feel, what is already written within my heart. He doesn't put ideas in my head, like money into a candy machine. He reminds me what I already know, but I sometimes can't see it or won't see it because I can be too busy working at being `James'. If you don't understand what I am saying, don't worry; I am sure you will someday. I didn't find the teachings of the Buddha, the teachings of the Buddha found me…when I was ready to hear them. It only takes a little smile, and the teachings of the Buddha will be there in front of you. Thank you again for your letter Janice. If you see Mrs. Walsh-Till, send my condolences to her for the loss of her husband. Let her know that many people are wishing her and her husband good thoughts. Study hard and Keep Smiling! :-) Love, James Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout Would Not Take The Garbage Out Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout Would not take the garbage out! She'd scour the pots and scrape the pans, Candy the yams and spice the hams, And though her daddy would scream and shout, She simply would not take the garbage out. And so it piled up to the ceilings: Coffee grounds, potato peelings, Brown bananas, rotten peas, Chunks of sour cottage cheese. It filled the can, it covered the floor, It cracked the window and blocked the door With bacon rinds and chicken bones, Drippy ends of ice cream cones, Prune pits, peach pits, orange peel, Gloopy glumps of cold oatmeal, Pizza crusts and withered greens, Soggy beans and tangerines, Crusts of black burned buttered toast, Gristly bits of beefy roasts... The garbage rolled on down the hall, It raised the roof, it broke the wall... Greasy napkins, cookie crumbs, Globs of gooey bubble gum, Cellophane from green baloney, Rubbery blubbery macaroni, Peanut butter, caked and dry, Curdled milk and crusts of pie, Moldy melons, dried-up mustard, Eggshells mixed with lemon custard, Cold french fries and rancid meat, yellow lumps of Cream of Wheat. At last the garbage reached so high That finally it touched the sky. And all the neighbors moved away, And none of her friends would come to play. And finally Sarah Cynthia Stout said, "OK, I'll take the garbage out!" But then, of course, it was too late... The garbage reached across the state, From New York to the Golden Gate. And there, in the garbage she did hate, Poor Sarah met an awful fate, That I cannot right now relate Because the hour is much too late. But children, remember Sarah Stout And always take the garbage out! --Shel Silverstein 16991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 25, Comm. bare mindfulness Hi Larry, I am also curious about bare mindfulness, but it takes time to find it in my subco, after a month or so (after Thailand). But that does not matter? I am just interested at the Pali text now. As to ardent, atapi, energy, etc. we read about this in a former extract of the Way. Yes, also other cetasikas have to accompany sati and panna, sati-sampaja~n~na. Viriya is certainly performing its function: energy for awareness of what appears at this moment. Nina. op 15-11-2002 02:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > [Tika] "Arousing of Mindfulness". Here bare mindfulness is meant. > Therefore, the commentator speaks of "the things that make up the > condition connected with the Arousing of Mindfulness." These things are > energy and so forth, associated necessarily with mindfulness. Condition > [anga] = reason [karana]. >> > Anyone know what the pali is for "bare mindfulness' here? > > Also, I think "energy and so forth" refers to atapi (ardent/energy), > sampajano (clearly comprehending), and satima (mindful). Just a guess. > They would be associated necessarily with anupassana (looking at) in > order to make satipatthana. Any discussion? 16992 From: James Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:29am Subject: Re: Kiana's letter --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > Hi everybody, > > My name is Kiana. I am 12 years old. I am Chinese. > Chinese is my first language and English is my second > language. I study in Heep Yunn School. > > I know Jan. She is a girl who is studying with me in > Mrs. Abbott's English service. I heard about her > teacher. It was sad that he died suddenly. But there > are people die and there are people born, may be Jan > will meet him in the future. > > I wish Jan won't be sad about this. I hope all the > students or people who know Mr. Walsh. Till won't be > sad anymore! If he was alive, he didn't like all of > you to be sad about this. > > Finally I want to ask a question about 'LIFE & DEATH', > why there're some people who are trying to kill > themselves and some are trying to save their life? > > I am please that you can answer my > question. > > Love, > Kiana. Hi Star Kid! (AKA Kiana): Thank you for your letter. I agree with you, it is best not to be sad about the death of Mr. Walsh-Till, but to wish good thoughts for his future (where ever that may be). But it is also important to have patience with those who are sad and realize that their sadness will go away in due time. Happy times and sad times never last…but the lessons we learn from them last from lifetime to lifetime. You ask a very deep and important question about life and death. I will try to answer to the best of my ability. However, just remember that this question cannot truly be answered with one answer. People want to live and die for different reasons and each situation is different. But I will try to explain the `root' reason. Let's say you are in a toy store and you see a new toy you have never seen before. According to Buddhism, when you see that new toy you are going to feel a possibility of three different things: 1. Craving- You are going to want that toy and keep it forever; 2. Aversion- You really hate that toy, think it is very stupid, and think that no one should have it or want it; 3. Indifference- You don't understand what the toy is for; you don't love it or hate it, but you decide that it is not worth thinking about. The Buddha teaches that we all have these three kinds of feelings about everything we see, hear, smell, touch, taste, and think about. We are all much like a bunch of spoiled brats aren't we? :-) The Buddha also taught that people view themselves very much like a `toy' or something that they `own'. But in the case of ourselves, we didn't get to choose if we wanted our self or not; like Christmas, we were just born with this `gift' of ourselves that we had no choice about. Some people will love this gift and want to keep it forever (Bragging and Inflated Ego). Some people will hate this gift and want to throw it away and can't see why anyone else would want it either (Depression and Suicide). And some people will be confused about this gift, because they don't understand it, so they decide that it is best just to think about something else (Spiritual Apathy and Consumerism). But the Buddhist tries not to do any of these three things; the Buddhist sees reality and knows that our lives are not a toy, or a gift, or a possession. Our lives are just: `LIVING'. Our lives and ourselves are not things that we own; they are a process that we experience. This is hard to understand and so that is why being Buddhist is not really easy. Kiana, I hope this letter answers your question in a way that you can understand. I use some complicated words, but your teacher can help you with those. Take care and study hard. Love, James 16993 From: Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 25, Comm. Way 25: ""Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]." Hi all, I'm not sure what is going on in this paragraph but I think overcoming hindrances can be accomplished, temporarily, by willful rejection or insight. Maybe someone knows a sutta reference for willful rejection; I know I've seen them. I'm thinking of some experience in daily life, outside "suppression in absorption". If anyone knows what "substitution of the opposite", "overcoming evil part by part" or "suppression in absorption" mean, please chime in. The other means of abandoning that I know of is insight. Recognizing restlessness & remorsefulness, for example, as restlessness and remorsefulness is right next to seeing that restlessness and remorsefulness are not self. This is temporary, but like everything else accumulates. The only permanent abandoning of hindrances is in a path moment. A path moment (magga citta) cannot be "set up" or practiced; it either happens or it doesn't. Mostly it doesn't, but when it does, it is due to accumulations. I'm not 100% clear about this, so corrections, as always ;)) are more than welcome. Larry 16994 From: Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 7:15am Subject: Quick Reply - Then Let's Drop It (Re: [dsg] Re: Heart to Heart) Hi, James - In a message dated 11/16/02 11:05:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I did not post this message in that group > because I thought I had already done enough damage as it was; > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: You did no damage. Your behavior in the matter mentioned was helpful, not problematical. ------------------------------------------------- and > > may just stay away forever; > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: An unwarranted response. ------------------------------------------------- but I wanted to express my thoughts. > > And this post is not a critique of that group and it really > shouldn't be discussed in this group. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's a fact. I have replied *only* to correct the negative picture you have painted of yourself. But now let this drop. Each list should deal with its own concerns solely. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16995 From: James Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:28pm Subject: Quick Reply - Then Let's Drop It (Re: [dsg] Re: Heart to Heart) Hi Howard, Sorry, I sometimes (often??) make mountains out of mole hills. It's dropped!:-) (Like Nathan is going to drop-kick my butt for another blunder! ;-) Have a fantasic weekend! Love, James 16996 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 6:16pm Subject: Consciousness and the heart base Dear Group, I wonder if anyone has read "The Heart's Code: Tapping the Wisdom and Power of Our Heart Energy: The New Findings About Cellular Memories and Their Role in the Mind/Body/Spirit" by Paul Pearsall? I haven't, but it seems possibly relevant to the post that TG made to James. The advertising blurb says that it is 'A fascinating synthesis of ancient wisdom, modern medicine, scientific research, and personal experiences that proves the human heart, not the brain, holds the secrets that link body, mind, and spirit. You know that the heart loves and feels, but did you know the heart also thinks, remembers, communicates with other hearts, helps regulate immunity, and contains stored information that continually pulses through your body. In 'The Heart's Code' Dr. Paul Pearsall explains the throry and science behind energy cardiology, the emerging field that is uncovering one of the most significant medical, social and spiritual discoveries of our times. The heart is more than just a pump, it conducts the cellular symphony that is the very essence of our being. Full of amazing anecdotes and data 'The Heart's Code' presents the latest research on cellular memory and the power of the heart's energy and explores what these breakthroughts mean about how we should live our lives. By unlocking the heart's code we can discover new ways of understanding human healing and consciousness and create a new model for living that leads to better health, happiness and self knowledge.' Paul Peasall is a Psychoneuroimmunologist - which, I think, is a psychologist studying heart transplant patients. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > I have found several instances where modern science has shot holes in > Abhidhamma Theory...such as Abhidhamma's "the heart base" as a base for > consciousness, such as the visual and audible objects not coming into contact > with eye and ear, etc. > > I think that its best to use every tool available to discover truth...and > that wisdom is using that truth to attain the highest happiness. As long as > it doesn't become too much of a distraction, I see no problem with > incorporating modern science. > > TG 16997 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 25, Comm. Hi Larry, You may find this useful. Nyanaponika Thera has written the Wheel Publication "The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest - selected Texts from the Pali Canon and the Commentaries". In the chapter on The Hindrances Individually, he gives Sutta citations for A. Nourishment of and B. Denourishment of http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#rest The Samannaphala Sutta and its commentary is also included. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Way 25: ""Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an > evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category > of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part > [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the > passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]." > Hi all, > I'm not sure what is going on in this paragraph but I think overcoming > hindrances can be accomplished, temporarily, by willful rejection or > insight. Maybe someone knows a sutta reference for willful rejection; I > know I've seen them. I'm thinking of some experience in daily life, > outside "suppression in absorption". If anyone knows what "substitution > of the opposite", "overcoming evil part by part" or "suppression in > absorption" mean, please chime in. The other means of abandoning that I > know of is insight. 16998 From: James Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trip to LA, Specially for James. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" > wrote: > > > > Correction. I forgot to put the day. Arriving LA on Monday 25 Nov > at 1036 > > am. Ven. Yanatharo > > Ven. Yanatharo, > > Hmmm...maybe. Let me check with the bhikkhu's at my temple and see > if any of them would like to take a trip to LA to visit you at the > airport; then we can visit and stay at some temples while there Ven Yanatharo, I went to my Buddhist temple this evening for the Loy Krathong Festival and before I could even talk to the abbot about a trip to LA, he asked me to film and edit a `Guided Tour of Wat Promkunaram' video for the temple. He needs it filmed and edited within two weeks- when he goes to Thailand for a meeting. I, of course, said I would. That means I cannot meet you in LA. Sorry; maybe some other time. Hopefully someone else can meet with you. If you ever come out to Phoenix, Arizona, you might like to stay at Wat Promkunaram. They have many available accommodations and are always friendly. Here is a link to their website: http://www.watprom.iirt.net/index.html (which I will probably re-design for them in the new year). If you do come, tell the monks you would like to see me. I work very closely with Wat Prom and the monks know how to contact me. Metta, James 16999 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "what is awareness. Wendy, --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > Hi Jon and Nina, > I think I know about insight as what you said: "If > insight arises, it sees the true nature of the object", but > I think I comprehend it only on the intellectual level. Personally, I don't feel any need to be concerned about the fact that comprehension seems to be only, or mostly, at an intellectual level. After all, correct intellectual understanding is a necessary pre-requisite for the development of understanding at a more direct level. This is something that is stressed frequently in the teachings. If the intellectual understanding is correct, then a more direct level of understanding will follow as a matter of course; but without the former there can never be the latter. Patience, forbearance and a lack of expectation or desire for results are very necessary attributes in the development of understanding. > Because what is "true" nature? How do I know that is "true" > nature been seen and not just some concepts I have learnt > from Buddhism and what I interpreted? ... I think you are right to be wary about trying to see realities in a particular way, i.e., in the way that we believe to be aspects of their true nature. That would simply be trying to impute to realities (or rather, to what we *think to be* realities) our concept of 'true nature' (a concept that is bound to be wrong). I don't think that's what the Buddha was suggesting we should do. > ... It seems > what we defined as "true" nature has been nature according > to the teaching of Buddha, or what we've interpreted from > what we read about the teachings of Buddha, or what most > people agree to be the interpretation of Buddha's teaching, > I don't even want to go on into saying how do we know > teachings of Buddha is dhamma. I am constantly reminded > about the fable in which five blind persons were told to tell > what an elephant was. The way I see it, the true nature of realities isn't something special or esoteric or mystical. It really means seeing for what they are any (one) of the 'building blocks' that constitute the present moment as it actually occurs. We are told that instead of the present moment being a agglomeration of experiences through different doorways all happening at once, each of these experiences is separate and discrete and furthermore that, in the case of the sense-doors, each of these experiences is itself a composite of 2 different realities. So what we take for 'the world' is really separate and discrete experiences through the different sense-doors and the mind-door, and each of the individual sense-door 'experiences' – the 'seeing experience' , the 'hearing experience' etc. -- is in fact the conjunction of 2 very different realities, one of which experiences something (i.e., seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness) and the other of which (visible object, sound) does not experience something. This is the intellectual understanding. It doesn't ascribe any particular 'nature' to realities that is to be 'observed'. However, because it refers to whatever it is that is happening at this and every other moment of our waking lives it gives us a basis for considering and reflecting at a more direct level, which in turn allows us to see whether what we have understood at an intellectual level is consistent with our actual present-moment experience, as far as our (limited) understanding allows. It is not a matter of trying to see things differently or in some particular way. But it may lead to a clearer, more direct appreciation of the presently arising reality as being something other than what we normally take it for. ... > And I am beginning to think, "why" did I ask the question, > why recognizing insight is so important to me? Maybe here > I am again, looking for some type of assurance, that > "I" am on the right track. Perhaps here I am again, looking > for some type of way to control or to will to have insight, so I > can become the "blessed" one. But how easily I become not > mindful of anatta. Yes, arising of insight comes naturally when > conditioned, so is everything else. "You" cannot will it because > there is no "you" to begin with. EVERTHING comes naturally > upon proper conditions, constantly. The path to nirvana paved > itself naturally upon proper conditions, there is really no "you" > walking on it. I like the way you put this. Everything happens as a result of the appropriate conditions being in place for it to happen. In a very real sense, nothing can be made to happen. But as I think you also suggest, even though we can appreciate this at a certain (intellectual) level, there is still bound to be an idea of I, me and mine intermingled with that intellectual appreciation and useful reflection. This however is nothing to be overly concerned about, since it occurs for the very reason we are now discussing, namely, that the appropriate tendencies have been accumulated in the past and all the conditions for them to manifest are 'in place' right now. As Azita always so helpfully reminds us in her posts, it is a matter of patience, courage and good cheer. The courage here, to my way of thinking, is the confidence that an understanding of the way things truly are is the key to the eventual eradication of such tendencies. Then we will not be perturbed by manifestations of unwholeome tendencies. Thanks for the opportunity for useful reflection. Jon