18400 From: nidive Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Howard, > If the 12 pairs, together, are, indeed, as the sutta "The All" > states, all that there is, yet they are all conditioned and > nibbana is the unconditioned (so that nibbana cannot, as I said, > be among them) then there would appear to be an outright > contradiction. It is not to my understanding that the Buddha was teaching about conditionality in this sutta. There is no talk of conditionality here. And I agree with Kom that the translation "intellect and ideas" is a misfit. Kom has provided a very good explanation. In any case, if nibbana is not included in the "All", how do you explain the statement "would be unable to explain" from the sutta? Clearly, the Buddha was able to explain what nibbana is. He even taught the way to know or realize the Unconditioned. He was able to explain why there is the Unconditioned. "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned." -- Ud VIII.3 To me, if nibbana is not included in the "All', the statement "would be unable to explain" would be an even 'greater contradiction' than the one you pointed out. Also, it is not to my understanding that the Buddha was griefed whenever he says: "This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." -- AN III.32 Is there any grounds for the Buddha to give the above description? Yes, by direct knowledge: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2- 1.html Ananda: In what way, venerable sir, might a monk attain concentration of such a form that he would have neither the perception of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient? The Buddha: There is the case, Ananda, where he would be percipient of this: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all mental processes; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbana.' -- A X.6 It is to my understanding that whatever 'ultimate reality' that is neither rupa, nor citta, nor cetasika, nor nibbana cannot be described by virtue of it being non-existent (beyond range). So too, an arahant (who had gone parinibbana) cannot be described. Being neither rupa, nor citta, nor cetasika nor nibbana, such an arahant does not exist anymore, just like the flame that has been snuffed out does not exist anymore. Such an arahant cannot be described by virtue of being non-existent (beyond range). Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18401 From: nidive Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 8:00am Subject: Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi KKT, > KKT: What is the difference between your interpretation and > the << annihilationism, nothingness >> ? > Is it the << craving for non-existence >> (vibhava-tanha) > mentioned in the 2nd Noble Truth? Does an arahant has any craving for existence or for non-existence? Does an arahant has any self-view? Would it be the case that the arahant would have this thought: "I would not exist anymore after my parinibbana."? For the arahant, such a view does not arise. For the worldlings (and lower ariyans?), such a view arises because of defilements still uneradicated. It is a difference in perspective based on whether defilements are eradicated or not. So, it is not annihilation (annihilation being a form of self-view) or nothingness (nothingness being merely a concept or mind object). Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18402 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 8:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Nibbana as a non-cognitive realities / pure-mind Dear James & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: James > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > I have often written that I believe `Nibbana' is > to abandon > conditioned mind and become pure mind. In other > words, ultimate > reality is consciousness without the conditioning > of duality; or > unconditioned consciousness…also called `store > consciousness' (alaya- > vijana). This puts many people up-in-arms; > especially Suan (who I > haven't seen posting lately) because it runs > counter to the > Abhidhamma and is elucidated in a sutta contained > within the This belief is definitely not supported in the Theravadan texts. Under the Theravadan texts, nibbana is an unconditioned non-cognitive reality. In Patthana, anything that is cognitive (including citta and cetasikas, i.e., all consciousness and its concomitants) are conditioned by their objects. The sutta rendering of the conditioning of the cognitive elements are in the form: based on the visible object and eye base, the eye consciousness comes to be. The Patthana (Abhidhamma) explains that visible object conditions the eye consciousness by way of being its object (aramana) condition. The eye base conditions the eye consciousness by way of being its support (upanissaya) condition. For path attainment and fruition (magga and phala), Nibbana conditions the path consciousness by way of being its object (aramana) condition. Nibbana is not conditioned by anything (including the path consciousness), but the Theravadan text clearly states that it conditions the path consciousness. We can see in our own daily life how the object conditions the consciousness. Without the object appearing, there is no consciousness, nor feelings, nor attachment, nor anger, nor delusion. Even at the thinking level, it is pretty evident to me how different objects condition different kinds of consciousness. Pleasant objects condition attachment, unpleasant objects condition anger. Very pleasant object conditions pleasant mental feelings and happiness. The consciousness and its concomitants are bound by their objects, the accumulated kilesa, and the latent kilesa. We can prove to ourselves that their is no consciousness in our daily life (including Jhana cittas) not conditioned by its object. kom 18403 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana Is One Thing, And Samsara Is Another Thing Hi, Suan - In a message dated 1/1/03 8:29:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Dhamma friends > > Happy New Year! > > There are exactly Four Realities. > > They are matter, mind, mental associates and nibbana. > > Samsara is made up of matter, mind and mental associates. > > At another level, there are exactly Four Noble Truths. > > Samsara is made up of misery, attachment as the cause of misery, and > the way leading to cessation of attachment and misery, which are > called the Three Noble Truths while nibbana as the final cessation of > misery is the other remaining Noble Truth, to make the Four Noble > Truths. > > If one were to equate nibbana with samsara, one's action amounted to > equating cessation of misery with misery, with attachment, and with > the way leading to eradication of attachment and of misery. > > That type of confusing and attempting to confuse nibbana with samsara > is the hallmark of intellectual backwardness typical of pre-Buddhist > thinkers and modern un-Buddhist thinkers. > > Therefore, anyone who equated samsara with nibbana misunderstood the > original teachings of Gotama the Historical Buddha at best, and > misrepresented them at worst. > > Please keep in mind that Buddha called himself "Vibhajjavaadii", the > one who teaches by analysis. In ancient India, Buddhists were called > and known as Vibhajjavaadiis, the Analysts. > > > With kind regards, > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > http://www.bodhiology.org > ========================== If "matter", mind, and mental associates are three realities constituting samsara, and if nibbana is a completely separate reality, opposite in at least the respects of being unconditioned (and thus unrelated to any conditions to be found in samsara), not anicca, and not dukkha, how in the world is there escape from the conditioned realm of samsara. If nibbana is a total "other": self-existent, encapsulated, an island with no connecting causeways, how is the crossing over possible? This formulation of nibbana as "the fourth reality" strikes me as substantialist. Nibbana, unlike the conditioned dhammas, comes across as being a self-existing entity, with essence/core - it becomes a kind of "absolute" which stands opposed and unrelated to the dual world of relative conditions, so that one ends up with a scheme not unlike some of the dualistic schools of Vedanta. Or so it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18404 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, KKT - In a message dated 1/1/03 10:11:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, phamdluan@a... writes: > > Dear Neo, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " > wrote: > > > > > PS: An arahant is said to even transcend dispassion; nibbana. Why is > that so? Because (at death), he is neither rupa, nor citta, nor > cetasika, nor nibbana. 'He' simply doesn't exist anymore, just like > the flame which was snuffed out does not exist anymore. > > > > > KKT: What is the difference > between your interpretation and > the <>? > > Is it the <> > (vibhava-tanha) mentioned in the 2nd Noble Truth? > > > Metta, > > > KKT > > =============================== Thank you for this! It seems to me that precisely because we cannot really grasp the middle-way nature of reality, we always cling to the extremes - the extreme of eternalism and substantialism or the opposite extreme of annihilationism and nihilism. (And, with a little effort, we can generally manage to come up with chapter and verse to back up the choice to which we are predisposed, and, at the same time, couch our perspective in terms suggesting that it really isn't an extreme at all.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18405 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 1/1/03 10:46:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >If the 12 pairs, together, are, indeed, as the sutta "The All" > >states, all that there is, yet they are all conditioned and > >nibbana is the unconditioned (so that nibbana cannot, as I said, > >be among them) then there would appear to be an outright > >contradiction. > > It is not to my understanding that the Buddha was teaching about > conditionality in this sutta. There is no talk of conditionality > here. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Conditions per se were not mentioned nor was nibbana per se. So? -------------------------------------------- And I agree with Kom that the translation "intellect and > > ideas" is a misfit. Kom has provided a very good explanation. ------------------------------------------- Howard: We disagree here. ------------------------------------------ > > In any case, if nibbana is not included in the "All", how do you > explain the statement "would be unable to explain" from the sutta? > Clearly, the Buddha was able to explain what nibbana is. He even > taught the way to know or realize the Unconditioned. He was able to > explain why there is the Unconditioned. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have never denied, nor do I deny, nibbana. My follow-up post explained my understanding pretty much as well as I can put it forward at this time. I'm afraid I'll have to leave it at that. -------------------------------------------------- > > "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. > If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, > there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- > become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely > because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, > emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is > discerned." -- Ud VIII.3 > > To me, if nibbana is not included in the "All', the statement "would > be unable to explain" would be an even 'greater contradiction' than > the one you pointed out. > > Also, it is not to my understanding that the Buddha was griefed > whenever he says: > > "This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all > fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of > craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." -- AN III.32 > > Is there any grounds for the Buddha to give the above description? > Yes, by direct knowledge: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2- > 1.html > > Ananda: In what way, venerable sir, might a monk attain > concentration of such a form that he would have neither the > perception of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard > to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of > space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the > dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor > non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to > the next world, and yet he would still be percipient? > > The Buddha: There is the case, Ananda, where he would be percipient > of this: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all > mental processes; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending > of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbana.' > > -- A X.6 > > > It is to my understanding that whatever 'ultimate reality' that is > neither rupa, nor citta, nor cetasika, nor nibbana cannot be > described by virtue of it being non-existent (beyond range). So too, > an arahant (who had gone parinibbana) cannot be described. Being > neither rupa, nor citta, nor cetasika nor nibbana, such an arahant > does not exist anymore, just like the flame that has been snuffed > out does not exist anymore. Such an arahant cannot be described by > virtue of being non-existent (beyond range). > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > ================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18406 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars Hi James, With a little tweeking most of these mahayana ideas are supported by theravada. An arahant's mind could be regarded as a pure and nondualistic mind in the sense that it is free from defilements. As Kom said, it is not an unconditioned consciousness, but in the sense that all identity is conceptual, empty of "itself", a mere name, and in so far as experience is the ultimate authority and all experience is only consciousness and consciousness is a process of identifying, in just this way we could say consciousness is non-arising because of being ultimately conceptual and therefore unconditioned, somewhat. Happy New Year, Larry 18407 From: James Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: Nibbana as a non-cognitive realities / pure-mind --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear James & All, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > > I have often written that I believe `Nibbana' is > > to abandon > > conditioned mind and become pure mind. In other > > words, ultimate > > reality is consciousness without the conditioning > > of duality; or > > unconditioned consciousness…also called `store > > consciousness' (alaya- > > vijana). This puts many people up-in-arms; > > especially Suan (who I > > haven't seen posting lately) because it runs > > counter to the > > Abhidhamma and is elucidated in a sutta contained > > within the > > This belief is definitely not supported in the Theravadan > texts. Under the Theravadan texts, nibbana is an > unconditioned non-cognitive reality. In Patthana, anything > that is cognitive (including citta and cetasikas, i.e., all > consciousness and its concomitants) are conditioned by their > objects. > > The sutta rendering of the conditioning of the cognitive > elements are in the form: > based on the visible object and eye base, the eye > consciousness comes to be. > The Patthana (Abhidhamma) explains that visible object > conditions the eye consciousness by way of being its object > (aramana) condition. The eye base conditions the eye > consciousness by way of being its support (upanissaya) > condition. > > For path attainment and fruition (magga and phala), Nibbana > conditions the path consciousness by way of being its object > (aramana) condition. Nibbana is not conditioned by anything > (including the path consciousness), but the Theravadan text > clearly states that it conditions the path consciousness. > > We can see in our own daily life how the object conditions > the consciousness. Without the object appearing, there is > no consciousness, nor feelings, nor attachment, nor anger, > nor delusion. Even at the thinking level, it is pretty > evident to me how different objects condition different > kinds of consciousness. Pleasant objects condition > attachment, unpleasant objects condition anger. Very > pleasant object conditions pleasant mental feelings and > happiness. The consciousness and its concomitants are bound > by their objects, the accumulated kilesa, and the latent > kilesa. We can prove to ourselves that their is no > consciousness in our daily life (including Jhana cittas) not > conditioned by its object. > > kom Hi Kom, Uh, yea, I know that this thinking is not Theravada. I think I wrote that already. So? I try not to cling to Theravada Buddhism anymore than I try to not to cling to anything else. As I stated in my introduction to this group, I am a Zen Buddhist trapped in the body of Theravada Buddhist. I believe in the path teachings of the Buddha, but most of the ontology of Mahayana Buddhism. The Buddha pretty much refused to discuss or establish an ontology or cosmology, but he did indirectly several times. Upon his death, this was the sticking point that caused the schisms in the sangha that formed the different schools of thought. The Mahayana Buddhists broke away and established their own ontology and own suttas. I believe the Theravadas wrote the Abhidhamma Pitaka to establish an ontological and axiological view of the world in direct opposition to those `heretics'. I joined this group to find out about this work and found that I don't believe it. If taken literally, the Abhidhamma cannot possibly be true. It establishes a dualistic view of the world, calls this view `ultimate reality', and encourages practitioners to embrace the very things the Buddha said to reject as unreal and unsatisfactory. For example, calling Nibbana an `ultimate reality' is wacko. Where is it? What does it look like? Can I get tickets there? ;-) The idea of `Rupa' is also wacko…but I have gone into that enough already. The Abhidhamma appeals to those who cling to the world and like to `think' about impermanence rather than directly experience it. Those who meditate extensively and deeply should immediately see the theories of the Abhidhamma as incorrect. Why do some agree with it and some don't? Those who have really experienced the unreality of supposed reality know that it cannot and is not correct. However, on the reverse side, Mahayana Buddhism often results in practitioners who depend on `mind games' and `platitudes' instead of developing true insight. The Buddha was correct after all, these questions shouldn't be pondered, discussed, analyzed, categorized, or dissected with the mind. They should be simply experienced. But the human thirst to `know' is too strong. Just look at how much we continue to go round-and-round these issues and get nowhere. But it's better than watching TV! ;-) Metta, James 18408 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi KKT, Swee Boon, & Howard, The Buddha's objection to the annihilation view was because it denied kamma, but nibbana is certainly the end of kamma. I agree with Swee Boon. When fire exhausts its fuel it ceases forever. When water is thrown on a fire, the fire is annihilated but the fuel remains and will burn again. Happy New Year, Larry 18409 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 9:59am Subject: chicken and eggs Dear Sarah, As you remember, A. Sujin referred to the Sutta on chicken and eggs, S III, Middle Fifty, Ch 5, § 101 (Adze handle). The eggshell the chickens have to break through is ignorance. I looked up the Pali Co and just glanced through it. Most interesting: the bhikkhu lacks in vipassana. The right conditions are climate, food, people, listening to dhamma, dhamma savana sappaaya.m. Because of his former gradual training his panna ripens and he can attin arahatship in one session. My question: what are B.B.'s notes? It would facilitate my reading of it. But if it is too much, I alsmost tackled the Pali, it is not one of the most difficult texts. I shall try to enclose it in my Thailand report later on. Nina. 18410 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 9:59am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 9 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 9 King Bimbisåra received from King Pukkusåti as a gift eight precious garments, of which he offered four to the Exalted one and used four in his palace. To him occurred the following thought: ³When I shall send a present in return it should be better than the one King Pukkusåti has sent to me before. My friend sent me a priceless present, and what should I send to him? In the city of Råjagaha there is no object that is more precious than that, it is not to be found. King Bimbisåra had excellent qualities and also, since the time he had become a sotåpanna, nothing else but the Triple Gem could arouse joy. He uttered his wish to select the ³Gems² he would offer as a present to King Pukkusåti. Usually there are two kinds of jewels (5 . The jewel without consciousness is gold, silver, etc. The jewel with consciousness is bound up with the faculties (6 . The jewels without consciousness are used for decoration of those with consciousness. Of these two kinds of jewels, the jewel with consciousness is accounted the foremost. The Jewel with consciousness is twofold as the animal jewel and the human jewel. The animal Jewel which includes the Elephant-Jewel and the Horse-Jewel is used for the conveyance of humans. Therefore, the human Jewel is accounted the foremost. The human jewel is twofold as the woman jewel and the man jewel. The woman jewel performs service for the Wheel-Turning Monarch (7. Therefore, the man jewel is accounted the foremost of these two jewels. The man jewel is twofold as the house-living jewel and the homeless jewel. A Wheel-turning Monarch is the foremost among the house-living jewels, but since he pays homage with the fivefold prostration even to a novice (såmanera) who has gone forth on that day, the homeless jewel is accounted the foremost. The homeless jewel is twofold as the ³learner² and the ³non-learner² (8 . Of the two homeless jewels the value of the jewels of even hundred thousand learners does not equal the value of the jewel of one non-learner, and therefore, the non-learner is accounted the foremost. The learner, sekkha, is the ariyan of the stage of the sotåpanna, streamwinner, up to the stage of the anågåmí, non-returner. The non-learner, asekkha, does not need anymore to train himself and follow the practice leading to the eradication of defilements, because he has eradicated all defilements completely. The non-learner is the arahat. We read: The jewel of the non-learner is twofold: the jewel of the Buddha and the jewel of the disciple. Of the non-learner jewels, the value of the jewels of even hundred thousand disciples does not equal the value of the jewel of the Buddha. Therefore, the jewel of the Buddha is accounted the foremost. The Buddha jewel is twofold: the jewel of the Silent Buddha (Paccheka Buddha) and the jewel of the Fully Enlightened One. As to the Buddha jewel, the value of the jewels of hundred thousand Solitary Buddhas does not equal the value of the jewel of the Fully Enlightened One. Therefore, the jewel of the Fully Enlightened One is accounted the foremost. Thus, as it is well known, there is no jewel equal to the jewel of the Buddha, not in this world nor in the worlds of devas. Footnotes: (4 belongs to no 8) 4. The P.T.S. English translation has ³It is not convenient to me, revered sir. For there is here...² I follow the Pali text here. 5. See also the Commentary to the ³Minor Readings², the ³Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning², Ch VI, The Jewel Discourse. 6. Living beings with faculties, indriyas, such as eyesense, etc. 7. A Universal King ruling over the four continents, who possesses the jewels of the wheel, the elephant, the horse, the gem, the woman, the treasurer and the advisor. 8. The sekkha, learner, has attained enlightenment but not of the degree of arahatship, whereas the asekkha, non-learner, has attained arahatship. 18411 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 11:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " > wrote: > > > > > PS: An arahant is said to even transcend dispassion; nibbana. Why > is that so? Because (at death), he is neither rupa, nor citta, nor > cetasika, nor nibbana. 'He' simply doesn't exist anymore, just like > the flame which was snuffed out does not exist anymore. > > > > > KKT: What is the difference > between your interpretation and > the <>? > > Is it the <> > (vibhava-tanha) mentioned in the 2nd Noble Truth? =============================== Thank you for this! It seems to me that precisely because we cannot really grasp the middle-way nature of reality, we always cling to the extremes - the extreme of eternalism and substantialism or the opposite extreme of annihilationism and nihilism. (And, with a little effort, we can generally manage to come up with chapter and verse to back up the choice to which we are predisposed, and, at the same time, couch our perspective in terms suggesting that it really isn't an extreme at all.) With metta, Howard KKT: I'd like to give my 2 cents here :-)) Maybe the reason why the << middle-way >> is difficult to grasp is that it is to experience and not to speculate? Remember among the 10 << un-answered >> questions by the Buddha, there are two: __Does Tathagata << exist >> after death? __Does Tathagata << not exist >> after death? Metta, KKT 18412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > all experience is only > consciousness and consciousness is a process of identifying, in just > this way we could say consciousness is non-arising because of being > ultimately conceptual and therefore unconditioned, somewhat. > > ________________________ Dear Larry, What is the pali term for consciousness? Is it citta? If so I haven't seen anywhere in the texts where any citta(mano, vinnana) is said to be non-arising or ultimately conceptual or unconditioned(somewhat). Robert 18413 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars Hi Robert, I was reading between the lines. Happy New Year, Larry ----------------------------- Robert: Dear Larry, What is the pali term for consciousness? Is it citta? If so I haven't seen anywhere in the texts where any citta(mano, vinnana) is said to be non-arising or ultimately conceptual or unconditioned(somewhat). Robert 18414 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 1:31pm Subject: Re: Anatta - View of some scholars Dear Larry, Happy new year. Do you mean that if we read between the lines of the texts - i.e. uncover the real meaning- that we will find that the Buddha really explained that cittas are nonarising and ultimately conceptual and unconditioned(somewhat) . How do we do that? Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I was reading between the lines. > > Happy New Year, Larry > ----------------------------- > Robert: Dear Larry, > What is the pali term for consciousness? Is it citta? If so I haven't > seen anywhere in the texts where any citta(mano, > vinnana) is said to be non-arising or ultimately conceptual or > unconditioned(somewhat). > Robert 18415 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars Hi Robert, You may find that 1+1=3 or 1+1=1. It depends on how you look at it. The important thing is that you do have a happy new year. Larry ---------------------------- Robert: Dear Larry, Happy new year. Do you mean that if we read between the lines of the texts - i.e. uncover the real meaning- that we will find that the Buddha really explained that cittas are nonarising and ultimately conceptual and unconditioned(somewhat) . How do we do that? Robert 18416 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 3:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 < > > Maybe the reason why the << middle-way >> > is difficult to grasp is that it is > to experience and not to speculate? > > > Remember among the 10 << un-answered >> > questions by the Buddha, there are two: > > __Does Tathagata << exist >> after death? > __Does Tathagata << not exist >> after death? > > >_____________ Dear KKT, Did the Tathagata exist before death or not exist before death? RobertK 18417 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 3:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " <> Ven. Ananda was the most chastised, ridiculed, and un-respected > bhikkhu of the Buddha's monks; and yet the Buddha and him were > inseparable, he had a respect/understanding for women beyond his > time and culture, and he is responsible for passing along almost the > entirety of the Buddha's teachings. He was a paradox and a greatly > misunderstood individual. For some reason, I feel an affinity for > him ;-). Do you know of any good books or articles written about > him? > > Metta, James _________ Dear James, I don't think Ananda was unrespected by other monks. According to the commentaries(recorded by the sangha) at his parinibbana the tears shed were even more than at teh Buddhas death. He was also given the great responsibilty of reciting the Dhamma at the First council held after the Buddhas death. An indication of the veneration in which he was held by the sangha. ) RobertK 18418 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 4:12pm Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi James and Andrew, Thanks for these two great posts. I found them on my return from a two-day stay in Brisbane. Just as I was preparing my replies, a neighbour informed me the surf at Double Island Point is "goin' off!" So we're headed up there in his 4-wheel drive for what will be my first good surf in months. I'll be composing my replies between sets. See you later, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " > wrote: > Do you want to > 18419 From: nidive Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) > Conditions per se were not mentioned nor was nibbana per se. So? Which means that the Buddha was talking about both the Conditioned and the Unconditioned. He didn't qualify. Both the Conditioned and the Unconditioned constitutes the All. If the Buddha was not talking about the Conditioned and he was not talking about the Unconditioned, what can he be talking about? > I have never denied, nor do I deny, nibbana. My follow-up post > explained my understanding pretty much as well as I can put it > forward at this time. I'm afraid I'll have to leave it at that. Neither do I deny that the 'ultimate reality' nibbana exists. You would have to explain the statements "would be unable to explain" and "put to grief". Anyway, for now, just leave it at that. If there is any insight, please share. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18420 From: nidive Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Howard, I am sorry to have forgotten to address you in my last reply. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18421 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 4:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: Dear KKT, Did the Tathagata exist before death or not exist before death? RobertK KKT: My answer is: Yes, the Tathagata does exist before death. The proof: this is a << historical >> fact. Whatever this << existence >> means the Tathagata does exist before death. Therefore a` fortiori the << same >> Tathagata exists after death. This is what I think (but just a view :-)) Peace, KKT 18422 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, KKT - Point well made .. and well taken. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/1/03 2:24:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, phamdluan@a... writes: > KKT: I'd like to give my 2 cents here :-)) > > Maybe the reason why the <> > is difficult to grasp is that it is > to experience and not to speculate? > > > Remember among the 10 <> > questions by the Buddha, there are two: > > __Does Tathagata <>after death? > __Does Tathagata <>after death? > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18423 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars Hi, Larry, and Robert, and all - In a message dated 1/1/03 6:11:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Robert, > > You may find that 1+1=3 or 1+1=1. It depends on how you look at it. The > important thing is that you do have a happy new year. > > Larry > ======================= Larry, with regard to "1+1", are you saying that reading between the lines is a plus? ;-)) Let me use this as an opportunity to wish both of you and everybody else on this wonderful list a delightful, healthy, fruitful, and, most of all, peaceful new year! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18424 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 1/1/03 7:23:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > > >Conditions per se were not mentioned nor was nibbana per se. So? > > Which means that the Buddha was talking about both the Conditioned > and the Unconditioned. He didn't qualify. Both the Conditioned and > the Unconditioned constitutes the All. > > If the Buddha was not talking about the Conditioned and he was not > talking about the Unconditioned, what can he be talking about? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Everything mentioned in that sutta is conditioned. ----------------------------------------------- > > > >I have never denied, nor do I deny, nibbana. My follow-up post > >explained my understanding pretty much as well as I can put it > >forward at this time. I'm afraid I'll have to leave it at that. > > Neither do I deny that the 'ultimate reality' nibbana exists. > > You would have to explain the statements "would be unable to > explain" and "put to grief". Anyway, for now, just leave it at that. > If there is any insight, please share. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Whose statements are these? Who would have to explain them? And to what end? ------------------------------------------------ > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18425 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hey you! ;-)) In a message dated 1/1/03 7:25:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I am sorry to have forgotten to address you in my last reply. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > ========================== I didn't even notice, but now that you point it out, I'm really fuming!! ;-)) Have a wonderful new year, Swee Boon! With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18426 From: peterdac4298 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 6:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Peter, (Chris, Rob Edd & all), Hi Sarah > > Rather jumbled comments below: > > --- "peterdac4298 " > CF:> > As well, I think I might try to obtain "Dictionary of Pali Proper > > > Names", G.P.Malalasekera, Pali Text Society, 1974, Vol II - Sarah > > > mentioned it once before as well. Thank you. > > P:> You may as well get both volumes while you are at it, as they are > > quite cheep, maybe ukp15 each or so. Unless of course you are > > restricted for shelf space, they are quite large! > ..... > Peter, I have to tell you - you're out of date on this point;-) I used to > have the dict in 2 volumes (from a 2nd hand book-shop in London in the > 1970s and loved dearly). One of the vols quite disintegrated with the help > of some insects and we tried to replace it a couple of yrs ago. It is now > produced in 3 volumes and wonderful as they are, they are NOT cheap. Just > checked, 101pounds to be exact in the latest catalogue. A wonderful > investment and Christine would get very good use from them. Just don't let > the bugs get a taste;-) In 1994 I obtained my 2vol copy direct from PTS for just ukp35+vat. I wouldn't have bothered since I am not scholastic by inclination, (being both dyslexic and anaemic, i.e. it is hard work and I don't have the staying power for really worthwhile research, i.e. 'A' level and beyond). I first encountered them in the library at Amaravati during my monastic period, and found them fun to use, (it was almost like cheating!). So when a few years latter, I saw them going (relatively) cheep I snapped them up. From what you tell us above, I am rather glad I did. > ..... > I've just read your article and notes on Rahulamata/Yasodhara and I think > it's a really well-researched and beautiful piece of work. I checked a few > details and it all seems very accurate as far as I know. It's kind of you to say so, but all I did, having cracked the Pali alphabet, was lift the article directly off the page. My interlocutor, a non Buddhist musician working on a CD project inspired by the Buddha's wife, knew nothing of Buddhism, nor could find anything re Yasodhara: (she picked my name from a UseNet discussion group and hoped I might be able to help). So looking at the raw transposition, I decided that it needed some filling out so as to be comprehensible to the enquirer, and all the extra stuff was straight off the top of my head. Hence my interest in some feed back, and much appreciated it is too. > > I note that the comment about Rahulamata's death at 78 and that of the > 18,000 arahat nuns given, comes from the Apadana. I'm not sure that this > has ever been translated into English and in the PTS catalogue it mentions > the Pali version is no longer available there, although it seems the Pali > commentary on the first 3 sections is. I can only assume that the text was available prior to 1937 when the dictionary was first published. This is on the basis that Dr Malalasekera refers to it and gives a page reference too: note #18, Ap.ii.584ff. The common practice seems to be to use PTS page numbering as a standard proceedure. > I'm very interested in the notes > and references that Rob Edd gives. We don't have either of the books he > mentions for the translation of the verses, but perhaps someone else has. I shall start to hunt down these too. It would be rather nice to fill in this final detail. > > (Robert - v.glad to hear from you and hope the Icelandic fishing companies > can spare you from time to time for brief comments - I'd be v.interested > to hear any of yr comments on the `Dhamma Issues' series Nina is > translating and adding notes to, for example). > ***** > OK, I've just checked the entry for the Apadana in the dictionary too. It > is the 13th division of the Khuddakanikaya and contains 547 biographies of > monks and 40 of nuns at the time of the Buddha. It says that most the > stories are found in the Paramatthadipani, the commentary to the Thera and > Therigatha. > > The Apadana and its commentary (Visuddhajanavilaasinii) may have been > translated into Thai and is probably available in Burmese and Pali > elsewhere. Perhaps Kom, Suan or others know more. > > There seem to be other (Theravada) sources substantiating the details of > her going forth and becoming an arahant and so on. As I said, I think your > (Peter's) research with extra notes and details is really great. Any > comments I make are mere nit-picking. Not so, Ma'am! I feel both highly flattered and totally out of my depth:-) > > In note (8) you mentioned her powers `...were more like the psychic gifts > that some people even to day might have'. I don't think so.In the > commentary note to AN Bk of Ones, Women disciples (1-25), where she is > identified with Bhaddakaccana as chief among the nuns who attained > supernormal powers (mahaabhi~n~nappattaana.m), the PTS translation gives: > > "Of one Buddha four disciples only have great abnormal powers. The > remainder can recall 100,000 kalpas, not beyond that: but those who have > attained great abnormal powers can recall incalculable eras. Under our > Teacher's rule the two Great Disciples and the elder Bakkula and > Bhaddakaccana, just these four had this power". > > You had mentioned this note and these four disciples. I think these powers > are a rather more than `quite impressive';-) I agree entirely with this. My intention for putting in that comment was so as to point out to my non Buddhist enquirer that these powers where 'natural' (i.e. a combination of both personal development, and inherent qualities) rather than the result of 'divine intervention'. Furthermore, in my original e-mail I actually used the word 'spectacular' but toned it down for this list with 'impressive'. From what you tell us it looks like I should have left well alone!) > ***** > In the MrsRhys Davids transl of the Thera-Theri-gatha (as opposed to the > Norman version) it gives a transl of the commentary before the verses. For > Sundari-Nanda, after aeons and aeons after hearing Pudumuttara Buddha > preaching, she was also reborn in the same family as Yasodhara, her > sister. > > We read that as the Buddha (her half-brother), Rahula, his son, her > brother, King Nanda, her mother, Mahapajapati and her sister, Rahula's > mother had all gone forth, she followed from `love of her kin'. However, > she was intoxicated by her own beauty. After listening to the Buddha talk > on the foul and the impermanent, she eventually became an arahant too. > Anyway, the point was that here is another indication that Rahulamata had > gone forth and so on. No suggestions of having died young. > > One or two other small comments: > "In those mysogynistic days" (in note 14) - within the Sangha...?? Sorry, this was a relative reference to the Zeitgeist of that time and probably unnecessary. > > In a post to Chris, you wrote: > > "I think this may indicate the depth of anguish that the Boddhisatva > must have been suffering in that moment. It may provide some > indication of the motivational power that would drive him through > all the trials that were to follow. Maybe Yasodhara understood this?" > ..... > Have you any support to show any `depth of anguish' he suffered or for > this comment? Just curious. Well I'd be hard pushed to quote references, but generally trying to keep within what is generally known, though maybe looking at it in a slightly different way. To my mind the Boddhisatva would have either had to be irresponsible and reckless, or acting with extreme regret, there could be no middle way, he was to discover that latter. The former is inconsistent with the remainder of his entire career, whilst the latter is fully consistent with it. The Buddha mentions in Suttas that whilst still the Bodhisatta he was deeply moved by the encounter with a sick person, an old person and a dead person. He said he was inspired by the encounter with a yogi deep in meditation. He resolves to leave his family at night whilst no one will try to stop him, so as to live the life of a Yogi and find the escape from this anguish. He takes a last look at his new born son in the arms of his wife, but is afraid to awaken them. To me this all suggests that the Bodhisatta experienced at least some of the anguish that had previously been awoken in him by three of those earlier encounters. The anguish that he spent the next six years earnestly struggling to transcend. It seems highly probable that Yasodhara understood this, if not immediately, then at least soon after. It is quite common for wives to understand their husbands better than the husbands to know themselves. It brings to mind the image of countless women throughout the ages, who allowed their husbands to go off to war, with the distinct possibility that they wouldn't see them again. The way Yasodhara both lived her life and finally greeted the Buddha on his return suggests this depth of feeling quite clearly, to my mind, and is the reflection intended in what was offered above. I do hope it was OK. > > Thanks again. What other pieces do you have up your sleeve and I'm also > curious about why your non-buddhist musical friend was so interested in > the details of Rahulamata????? What did he do with it? (sorry if I've > missed the explanation). I don't think I gave an explanation. But she was composing a musicle project of CD proportions on the theme of the Buddha's wife. Judging from her web site: http://homebakedmusic.com/contact.html it would seem that the project never quite came to completion. Not supprising realy. Maybe a 78rpm or even a 45rpm, but a CD is rather pushing it for a Dhamma based storey that is going to appeal to the mass market. The only other piece that I have "up my sleeve" is an end note to the above corresponence. In my penultimate letter I put... "Hi Claire "Pali was a language that evolved at a time when people memorised everything, so it lent itself to spontaneous poems etc. which facilitated memorisation. Writing was strictly for merchants etc and thus thought to be too gross for such things as spiritual matters. "A sentence in Pali may be rearranged in any order and the sense would not be changed at all. All that mattered was having the grammatical prefixes and suffixes correct for the intended meaning. Hence it required little effort to spontaneously compose stanzas on any occasion or for any situation...." To which she wrote... "Would this mean, then, given the social and cultural conventions of the time, that Princess Yasodhara probably would not have been able to read and write in Pali at all? ..." To which I replied... "Hi Claire "The social conventions of the time would have encouraged her to develop all the skills, crafts and arts of a high born woman, as in any age. Whilst Gotama's education would have included the marshal arts, so that they would both no doubt impress and entertain one an other with their various skill sets, folk lore etc. But there would have been no written literature for anyone to read or write. The earliest Vedas would have been in existence long before the Buddha appeared and G and Y would both be versed in them, though being warrior cast, probably not as thoroughly as a Brahmin. But it was all done by memorising, hence the poetic nature of these documents. For example the Vedas are spoken of as being 'hymns', implying that they were chanted. While the Pali suttas are highly repetitive for a prose style, and often interspersed with stanzas too: and I do know that they are chanted, having often done so myself whilst a monk. "So what Yasodhara lacked in literary skills, she more than made up for with memorising by rote, and in my view was probably all the better off for it too, since this facilitates contemplation of the sacred passages at any time rather than when seated in front of their written form. This is certainly the way we are encouraged to practice Buddhism today, memorising all sorts of lists of Buddhist terminology and such like. The *big* thing for a monk or nun is to memorise the entire code of discipline [Patimokha] since this has the advantage of contemplating its purpose and function during the normal workday and hence bring clarity and skill to its real-time application. "Further more, this memorizing directly contributes to the practice of mindfulness or alertness: in Pali the same word means both mindfulness and memory, ie 'sati'. So the people of that time would have found meditation quite natural, making very rapid progress with relative ease. It was probably as commonplace as their prodigious memories. So, perhaps the discovery of the path to Awakening or Enlightenment could only have happened in such a highly evolved society just prior to the general acceptance of writing, and would perhaps explain the relative lack of such cultivation by the time of Christ, when writing was much more widespread and portable...." And her final reply befor closing, included the following remark: "I had never quite looked at the origins of Buddhism in this way, but what you suggest is absolutely reasonable..." If I were writing this now, I'd probably be a little more careful. I have already inserted 'Patimoka' into the above to replace 'Vinaya'. But I often do wonder what Western Buddhism would be like today if Rhys Davids had chosen 'recollectedness' instead of 'mindfulness' when translating 'sati'. > > I was also curious about your comment about their being no reference to > the bhikkhunis after the Buddha's parinibbana. I'm wondering whether > references to bhikkhus before the 1st council. When we read about the > buddha's body first being honoured by women because they were weeping > (which Ananda was chastised for allowing), would this not have included > bhikkhunis I wonder. Maybe also some of the references to the large > numbers of bhikkhus present?? In 1982, whilst at Wat Pa Nanachat, Ajahn Brahmavamso related this possibility to us, and being the practical man that I am, took his word for it. In the Parinibbana Sutta of the Digha Nikaya, there seems to be no mention of Bhikkhunis at all, and apparently non in any other texts relating to the Parinibbana and First Council. Ajahn Brom, at that time, simply pointed to the possibility that the order could have died out during the Buddha's lifetime. But this is inconsistent with the story of Ashoka's daughter founding the lineage in Sri Lanka: (and also with Aj Brom's current views!) See http://www.watthai.net/ for his audio tapes, one of which relates to this issue in a very possitive way. I have my own speculative view on this too, hope it's not too off topic. In time of crisis or emergency, e.g. war etc, not too much note is made of the activities of women and children, even though they may be mobile in very large numbers, whilst massive attention is directed at the activities of the adult males. The Parinibbana and the period up to and including the First Council could be seen as a similar episode in the history of Buddhism. Thus, in this context and the then social norms, the non mention of Bhikkhunis may seem less unexpected. > > Sarah > ===== > Peter 18427 From: James Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 7:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " > <> Ven. Ananda was the most chastised, ridiculed, and un-respected > > bhikkhu of the Buddha's monks > Dear James, > I don't think Ananda was unrespected by other monks. According to > the commentaries(recorded by the sangha) at his parinibbana the > tears shed were even more than at teh Buddhas death. He was also > given the great responsibilty of reciting the Dhamma at the First > council held after the Buddhas death. An indication of the > veneration in which he was held by the sangha. > ) > RobertK Hi Robert K: When you have read as many suttas as I have, you begin to get the big picture of things. You cannot go on a few isolated incidents; you have to look at the whole history. Yes, Ven. Ananda was respected after the Buddha's death, but prior to that, he wasn't respected at all and many of the sangha did not understand him or his closeness to the Buddha. Actually, other monks were downright nasty to him at times and if they were civil, it was often in a patronizing way (hmmmm...deja vu...) I am not going to do a big, research project on this to prove it; believe me, I know what I know. But, for simplicity and speed sake, let me quote a Jataka Tale that the Buddha told about Ven. Ananda so that the sangha would try to understand Ven. Ananda and begin to give him the respect he deserved (which he was not receiving prior to that): Kalakanni Jataka (Jataka No. 83) What's in a Name? The Buddha told this story while at Jetavana, about one of Anathapindika's friends, a man named "Curse." The two had played together as children and had gone to the same school. As the years passed, however, the friend became extremely poor and could not make a living for himself no matter what he did. In desperation, he approached Anathapindika, who welcomed him kindly and employed him to look after his property and to manage all of his business for him. From that time on, it was a common thing to hear someone shouting, "Curse!" each time a member of the household spoke to him. One day some of Anathapindika's friends and acquaintances came and said, "Treasurer, don't let this sort of thing go on in your house! It's enough to scare an ogre to hear such inauspicious speech as 'Come here, Curse,' 'Sit down, Curse,' or 'Have your dinner, Curse.' The man is a miserable wretch, dogged by misfortune. He's not your social equal. Why do you have anything to do with him?" "Nonsense," replied Anathapindika, firmly rejecting their advice. "A name only denotes a man. The wise do not measure a man by his name. It is useless to be superstitious about mere sounds. I will never abandon the friend with whom I made mud-pies as a child, simply because of his name." Not long after that, Anathapindika went with many of his servants to visit a village of which he was headman. He left his old friend in charge. Hearing of his departure, a band of robbers decided to break into the house. That night, they armed themselves to the teeth and surrounded it. Curse had suspected that burglars might try something so he stayed awake. As soon as he knew that the robbers were outside, he ran about noisily as though he were rousing the entire household. He shouted for one person to sound the conch and for another to beat the drum. Soon it seemed that the house contained a whole army of servants. When the robbers heard the din, they said to one another, "The house is not as empty as we thought it would be. The master must still be at home after all." They threw down their clubs and other weapons and fled. In the morning, the discarded weapons were found lying scattered outside the house. When the townspeople realized what had happened, they lauded Curse to the skies. "If such a wise man hadn't been guarding the house," they said, "those robbers would have walked in and plundered as they pleased. Anathapindika owes this good luck to his staunch friend, Curse." As soon as Anathapindika returned from his trip, they told him the whole story. "My friends," Anathapindika answered, "this is the trusty guardian I was urged to get rid of. If I had taken your advice and sent him away, I would be a poorer man today. It's not the name but the heart within that makes the man!" In appreciation of his friend's services, he even raised his wages. Thinking that this was a good story to tell the Buddha, Anathapindika went to the Master and gave him a complete account. "This is not the first time, sir," the Buddha said, "that a man named Curse has saved his friend's wealth from robbers. The same thing happened in bygone days as well." Then, at Anathapindika's request, the Buddha told this story of the past. Long, long ago, when Brahmadatta was reigning in Baranasi, the Bodhisatta was the treasurer. He was very famous and had a friend named Curse. At that time everything was the same as in the story of Anathapindika. When the treasurer returned from the village and heard the news, he said to his friends, "If I had taken your advice and had gotten rid of my trusty friend, I would have been a beggar today. A friend is one who goes seven steps to help. He who goes twelve can be called a comrade. Loyalty for a fortnight or a month makes one a relative; long and steady dependability, a second self. How could I forsake my friend Curse who has always been so true?" His lesson ended, the Buddha identified the Birth by saying, "At that time Ananda was Curse, and I myself was the treasurer of Baranasi." Metta, James 18428 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 7:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " > wrote: > > > > Dear KKT, > Did the Tathagata exist before death or not exist before death? > RobertK > > > KKT: My answer is: Yes, > the Tathagata does exist before death. > > The proof: this is a << historical >> fact. > > Whatever this << existence >> means > the Tathagata does exist before death. > Therefore a` fortiori the << same >> > Tathagata exists after death. > > This is what I think (but just a view :-)) __________ Dear KKT Was the Tathagatha while alive in the khandhas or apart from them? I think in the deepest sense there was no Tathagatha, there were only the elements, namas and rupas arising and ceasing. "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII 31) The Buddha (Tathagatha)and arahants use terms such as self and person and being ; but without any misconceptions that they refer to something real. "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. I think that it is key to investigate the difference between concepts and realities, in both theory and practice. I would say it is what the path involves. I believe that once the fuel of ignorance and craving was extinguished, as Swee Boon said, then the fire of samsara became cool and eventually , at khandha parinibbina, ceased forever. RobertK > > > 18429 From: James Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 8:53pm Subject: Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 > " wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear KKT, > > Did the Tathagata exist before death or not exist before death? > > RobertK > > > > > > KKT: My answer is: Yes, > > the Tathagata does exist before death. > > > > The proof: this is a << historical >> fact. > > > > Whatever this << existence >> means > > the Tathagata does exist before death. > > Therefore a` fortiori the << same >> > > Tathagata exists after death. > > > > This is what I think (but just a view :-)) > __________ > Dear KKT > Was the Tathagatha while alive in the khandhas or apart from them? I > think in the deepest sense there was no Tathagatha, there were only > the elements, namas and rupas arising and ceasing. > "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > But here there is no human being to be found, > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII > 31) > > The Buddha (Tathagatha)and > arahants use terms such as self and person and being ; but without > any misconceptions that they refer to > something real. > "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata > makes > use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > I think that it is key to investigate the difference between > concepts and realities, in both theory and practice. I would say it > is what the path involves. > > I believe that once the fuel of ignorance and craving was > extinguished, as Swee Boon said, then the fire of samsara became > cool and eventually , at khandha parinibbina, ceased forever. > RobertK Robert K, You missed KKT's point, which corresponds with what I have been writing. Because life and death are illusion, the same Tathagatha that existed before death (which we can't comprehend what that is), exists after death. This is what KKT wrote, but you missed the idea. `A fortiori' means `For a still stronger reason; all the more.' If you stop thinking in dualistic terms like `with aggregates' and `without aggregates', you will get it. As I said, the Buddha still exists. He is alive and well (in a certain sense). We are the ones who are the `walking dead' (in another sense). Metta, James 18430 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] chicken and eggs Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > As you remember, A. Sujin referred to the Sutta on chicken and eggs, S > III, > Middle Fifty, Ch 5, § 101 (Adze handle). The eggshell the chickens have > to > break through is ignorance. I looked up the Pali Co and just glanced > through > it. Most interesting: the bhikkhu lacks in vipassana. The right > conditions > are climate, food, people, listening to dhamma, dhamma savana > sappaaya.m. > Because of his former gradual training his panna ripens and he can attin > arahatship in one session. My question: what are B.B.'s notes? ..... I remember. The sutta has also been discussed before, but I don’t remember the commentary notes, so here goes (For others, note Spk refers to the commentary to SN): note 212 “The simile of the chicks is applied differently at MN 1 104, 3-13 and MN 1 357, 6-358,2 See too Vin 111 3-5. Spk elaborates on the comparison of the bhikkhu’s enlightenment to the hatching of the chicks: the hen’s preparatory work is like the bhikkhu’s devotion to development. The nonrotting of the eggs is like the bhikkhu’s devotion to development. the nonrotting of the eggs is like th bhikkhu’s not falling away from insight knowledge; the drying up of the moisture in the eggs is like the drying up of attachment to the three realms of existence; the thinning of the egg shells is like th thinning of ignorance; the maturation of the chicks is like the maturation of insight knowledge. The time when the chicks break the shells and merge safely is like the time when the bhikkhu breaks the shell of ignorance and attains arahantship. And as the chicks go about adorning the village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery.” note 214 “Spk develops this simile even more minutely than the simile of the chicks. In brief: Like the wearing away of the rigging by the ocean water is the wearing away of the bhikkhu’s fetters by his going forth (into homelessness), study, and questioning. Like the time the ship is hauled onto dry land is the time the bhikkhu takes up a meditation subject and dwells in the forest. Like the drying up of the rigging by wind and sun during the day is the drying up of craving by insight knowledge. Like the wetting by snow at night is the wetting of the mind by gladness and joy arisen from meditation. Like the rain cloud pouring down is the knowledge of the path of arahantship. Like the decay of the rigging is the attainment of the fruit of arahantship. Like the persistence of the rigging in a decrepit state is the persistence of the arahant as he lives on benefitting the multitude. Like the collapse of the decrepit rigging is the arahant’s attainment of the Nibbana element without residue.” ..... >It would > facilitate my reading of it. But if it is too much, I alsmost tackled > the > Pali, it is not one of the most difficult texts. I shall try to enclose > it > in my Thailand report later on. .... I’ll look forward to it. They are wonderfully graphic similes. Any typos are mine (I don’t have access to a scanner). Sarah ===== 18431 From: James Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] chicken and eggs --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nina, > .... > I'll look forward to it. They are wonderfully graphic similes. Any typos > are mine (I don't have access to a scanner). > > Sarah > ===== Hi Sarah, Yes, it is 12:36 am right now in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona and I am still awake. I had dinner, played with my niece (played `Harry Potter'…she was Harry and I was a Grand Wizard! I can levitate don't you know! ;-). Then I meditated (15 minutes only ), and I am now on this computer. I will probably be awake for a few more hours. ;-) Maybe many members want to know these details...maybe not. Truthfully, I think we all want to know more about each other. With this recent line of discussion, I really appreciate this post! I actually like both sets of analogies; but I like the ocean/sailing one more. I have a problem with the chicken and the egg one because of the last parallelism, "And as the chicks go about adorning the village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery." Huh? Nibbana is supposed to be taken as some sort of decoration now? Like `Nibbana Holiday Lights' outlining a Buddhist temple to twinkle a greeting to the un-cheery? ;-))(i.e. Dukkha enslaved) But the last set is absolutely beautiful and perfect! I want to quote it again for all to enjoy: Like the wearing away of the rigging by the ocean water is the wearing away of the bhikkhu's fetters by his going forth (into homelessness), study, and questioning. Like the time the ship is hauled onto dry land is the time the bhikkhu takes up a meditation subject and dwells in the forest. Like the drying up of the rigging by wind and sun during the day is the drying up of craving by insight knowledge. Like the wetting by snow at night is the wetting of the mind by gladness and joy arisen from meditation. Like the rain cloud pouring down is the knowledge of the path of arahantship. Like the decay of the rigging is the attainment of the fruit of arahantship. Like the persistence of the rigging in a decrepit state is the persistence of the arahant as he lives on benefitting the multitude. Like the collapse of the decrepit rigging is the arahant's attainment of the Nibbana element without residue." WOW!! Thank you Sarah for your efforts on our behalf to provide the full commentary. It is beautiful and breathtaking. Metta, James 18432 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 0:00am Subject: Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Dear Robert, > > Dear KKT, > > Did the Tathagata exist before death or not exist before death? > > RobertK > > > > > > KKT: My answer is: Yes, > > the Tathagata does exist before death. > > > > The proof: this is a << historical >> fact. > > > > Whatever this << existence >> means > > the Tathagata does exist before death. > > Therefore a` fortiori the << same >> > > Tathagata exists after death. > > > > This is what I think (but just a view :-)) > __________ > Dear KKT > Was the Tathagatha while alive in the khandhas or apart from them? > I think in the deepest sense there was no Tathagatha, there were > only the elements, namas and rupas arising and ceasing. > "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > But here there is no human being to be found, > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII 31) > > The Buddha (Tathagatha)and > arahants use terms such as self and person and being ; but without > any misconceptions that they refer to something real. > "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata > makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > I think that it is key to investigate the difference between > concepts and realities, in both theory and practice. I would say > it is what the path involves. > > I believe that once the fuel of ignorance and craving was > extinguished, as Swee Boon said, then the fire of samsara became > cool and eventually , at khandha parinibbina, ceased forever. > RobertK Robert K, You missed KKT's point, which corresponds with what I have been writing. Because life and death are illusion, the same Tathagatha that existed before death (which we can't comprehend what that is), exists after death. This is what KKT wrote, but you missed the idea. `A fortiori' means `For a still stronger reason; all the more.' If you stop thinking in dualistic terms like `with aggregates' and `without aggregates', you will get it. As I said, the Buddha still exists. He is alive and well (in a certain sense). We are the ones who are the `walking dead' (in another sense). Metta, James KKT: I think James understands perfectly my point :-)) And I understand also perfectly your point, Robert, which I classify as a nihilistic view (I really mean it :-)) First we must have this in mind: The Buddha kept silent and did not answer to the following 4 questions: __Does the Tathagata << exist >> after death? __Does the Tathagata << not exist >> after death? __Does the Tathagata either << exist >> or << not exist >> after death? __Does the Tathagata neither << exist >> nor << not exist >> after death? My interpretation of His silence is that He let wide open the door for His disciples to probe more deeply into this problem. I think we must thank Him for that because otherwise we would have a Buddhism with << fixed >> credos and dogmas (very boring indeed :-)) Now I show you how I may say that the Buddha << does exist >> before death. It's very simple :-)) Take the Buddha and a common worldling and put them next to each other. Do you agree with me that we have two << bags of 5 khandhas >> not really different from each other in the general sense of << khandhas >>, OK? So what is the difference between them? On one hand we have an << omniscient >> Tathagata and on the other hand we have an << ignorant >> worldling. And for sure if ever this << difference >> exists, it should not be found in the 5 khandhas because those are subject to conditions, OK? Do you see the << DIFFERENCE >> ? :-)) The difference is this << OMNISCIENCE >> ! This Omniscience is the proof of the existence of the Buddha! This Omniscience << IS >> the existence of the Buddha! This Omniscience << exists >> before death and a` fortiori << does exist >> after death. Maybe one can call it << the Source of All Wisdom >> ? :-)) Therefore I agree with this statement of James << the Buddha still exists. He is alive and well (in a certain sense) >> Metta, KKT 18433 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) Hi Peter, Thanks for getting back with the extra notes. wrote: > > I can only assume that the text was available prior to 1937 when the > dictionary was first published. This is on the basis that Dr > Malalasekera refers to it and gives a page reference too: note #18, > Ap.ii.584ff. The common practice seems to be to use PTS page > numbering as a standard proceedure. ..... I think this is right - in the catalogue it shows it was published in 1925 and 1927 but is no longer available. ..... > Not so, Ma'am! I feel both highly flattered and totally out of my > depth:-) .... Hey Peter, it’s only me! (This is the problem when 2 Brits start talking together - we become sooo polite that no one else understands us;-)). ..... > I agree entirely with this. My intention for putting in that > comment was so as to point out to my non Buddhist enquirer that > these powers where 'natural' (i.e. a combination of both personal > development, and inherent qualities) rather than the result > of 'divine intervention'. Furthermore, in my original e-mail I > actually used the word 'spectacular' but toned it down for this list > with 'impressive'. From what you tell us it looks like I should > have left well alone!) ..... Maybe ‘extraordinary’? ..... > > Have you any support to show any `depth of anguish' he > suffered or > for > > this comment? Just curious. > > Well I'd be hard pushed to quote references, but generally trying to > keep within what is generally known, though maybe looking at it in a > slightly different way. To my mind the Boddhisatva would have > either had to be irresponsible and reckless, or acting with extreme > regret, there could be no middle way, he was to discover that > latter. The former is inconsistent with the remainder of his entire > career, whilst the latter is fully consistent with it. ..... The reason I asked is because I think we tend to read the brief details given in the texts according to how we imagine anyone might feel during such acts. So we read about the long pregnancy of the Bodhisatta’s mother and consider her distress, assume the angst that the Bodhisatta must have felt by the 3 encounters and anguish/regret at leaving all that was dear to him and the even greater distress Yasodhara must have experienced at being deserted as her new baby was born. Some of the books we read when we first encounter Buddhism possibly contribute to the ‘wallpaper decoration’ that we are only too ready to believe. When we strip back the wallpaper to the bare textual references, I’m not sure that there is any evidence of all this anguish. Why should the Bodhisatta, having over countless lifetimes perfected the paramis, be ‘acting with extreme regret’? ..... >The Buddha > mentions in Suttas that whilst still the Bodhisatta he was deeply > moved by the encounter with a sick person, an old person and a dead > person. He said he was inspired by the encounter with a yogi deep > in meditation. He resolves to leave his family at night whilst no > one will try to stop him, so as to live the life of a Yogi and find > the escape from this anguish. He takes a last look at his new born > son in the arms of his wife, but is afraid to awaken them. To me > this all suggests that the Bodhisatta experienced at least some of > the anguish that had previously been awoken in him by three of those > earlier encounters. The anguish that he spent the next six years > earnestly struggling to transcend. ..... Let me give a few quotes from texts used in Nanamoli’s ‘the Life of the Buddha’ (p4f) which you referred us to recently which don’t, I think, suggest any anguish: ***** “When the Bodhisatta had descended into his mother’s womb, no kind of affliction arose in her: she was blissful in the absence of all bodily fatigue......etc” ..... “...she gave birth to him after carryig him in her womb for exactly ten months. other women give birth seated or lying down; but not so the Bodhisatta’s mother. She gave birth to him standing up. When the Bodhisatta came forth from his mother’s womb, he did not touch the earth. The four deities received him and set him before his mother, saying “Rejoice, O Queen, a son of great power has been born to you”. When the Bodhisatta came forth from his mother’s womb, just as, if a gem were placed on Benares cloth, the gem would not smear the cloth or the cloth the gem - why not? - because both are pure, so too the Bodhisatta came forth frm his mother’s womb unsullied, unsmeared.......” (Ananda’s words, M123). ***** “Whilst I had such power and good fortune, yet I thought: When an untaught ordinary man, who is subject to ageing, not safe from ageing, sees another who is aged, he is shocked, humiliated and disgusted; for he forgets that he himself is no exception. but I too am subject to ageing, not safe from ageing, and so it cannot befit me to be shocked, humiliated and disgusted on seeing another who is aged. When I considered this, the vanity of youth entirely left me..........vanity of health....vanity of life entirely left me.” (A.111,38) ***** “Before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta, I thought: House life is crowded and dusty; life gone forth is wide open. It is not easy, living in a household, to lead a Holy Life as utterly perfect and pure as a polished shell.....”(M. 36,100) ..... “Later, while still young, a black-haried boy blessed with youth, in the first phase of life I shaved off my hair and beard - though my mother and father wished otherwise and grieved with tearful faces -, and I put on the yellow cloth.......” (M.26, 36. 85, 100) ***** “But I have not gone forth to seek sense pleasures. I have gone out to strive, seeing danger in them, And seeing safe refuge from them in renouncing. That is my heart’s desire.” (Sn. 111,1) ..... “Now before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta...........I resort to a remote jungle-thicket abode in the forest as one of the Noble Ones, who are free from these defects (all mentioned above). Seeing in myself this freedom from such defects, I find great solace in living in the forest.” (M.4) ********** > It seems highly probable that Yasodhara understood this, if not > immediately, then at least soon after. It is quite common for wives > to understand their husbands better than the husbands to know > themselves. ..... Certainly not common for wives to be married to the Bodhisatta who had attained to the first jhana as a child and understood his mind states very clearly. ..... >It brings to mind the image of countless women > throughout the ages, who allowed their husbands to go off to war, > with the distinct possibility that they wouldn't see them again. > The way Yasodhara both lived her life and finally greeted the Buddha > on his return suggests this depth of feeling quite clearly, to my > mind, and is the reflection intended in what was offered above. I > do hope it was OK. ..... We read about the father’s sadness. I haven’t read anything to suggest any anguish on Yasodhara’s part as yet. On the contrary, the little I’ve read suggests to me she was inspired to follow his example and lead and for Rahula to do the same. As we know, she became a bhikkhuni later and an arahant. ..... This has already got rather long, so I’ll look at the other comments later. I just wished to ‘suggest’ that perhaps we always underestimate the ‘extraordinary’ qualities (the paramis in particular) developed by the Bodhisatta over lifetimes and also perhaps of those who were his close associates. How me would feel or imagine anyone would feel is not necessarily how it would have been. What do you think? Thanks again for your contributions on this topic and to Chris for prompting it . Sarah ====== 18434 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 1:01am Subject: The Tathagatha exists after death? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: > > Dear KKT > > Was the Tathagatha while alive in the khandhas or apart from them? > > I think in the deepest sense there was no Tathagatha, there were > > only the elements, namas and rupas arising and ceasing. > > "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > > But here there is no human being to be found, > > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII > 31) The Buddha (Tathagatha)and > > arahants use terms such as self and person and being ; but without > > any misconceptions that they refer to something real. > > "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata > > makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > I believe that once the fuel of ignorance and craving was > > extinguished, as Swee Boon said, then the fire of samsara became > > cool and eventually , at khandha parinibbina, ceased forever. > > RobertK > +++++++++++++ KKT: I understand perfectly > your point, Robert, which I classify > as a nihilistic view (I really mean it :-)) > First we must have this in mind: > The Buddha kept silent and did not > answer to the following 4 questions: > __Does the Tathagata << exist >> after death? > __Does the Tathagata << not exist >> after death? > __Does the Tathagata either << exist >> > or << not exist >> after death? > __Does the Tathagata neither << exist >> > nor << not exist >> after death? > Now I show you how I may say that > the Buddha << does exist >> before death. > It's very simple :-)) > Take the Buddha and a common worldling > and put them next to each other. > Do you agree with me that we have > two << bags of 5 khandhas >> > not really different from each other > in the general sense of << khandhas >>, OK? > So what is the difference between them? > On one hand we have an << omniscient >> Tathagata > and on the other hand we have an << ignorant >> worldling. > And for sure if ever this << difference >> exists, > it should not be found in the 5 khandhas > because those are subject to conditions, OK? > The difference is this << OMNISCIENCE >> ! > This Omniscience is the proof > of the existence of the Buddha! > This Omniscience << IS >> the existence of the Buddha! > This Omniscience << exists >> before death > and a` fortiori << does exist >> after death. > Maybe one can call it << the Source of All Wisdom >> ? :-)) > Therefore I agree with this statement of James > << the Buddha still exists. > He is alive and well (in a certain sense) >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear KKT (and James), I know James doesn't like sutta quotes to be used but I hope you don't mind if I add some as I think they are relevant. In the Samyutta Nikaya (SN. IV 385), Sariputta says to a bhikkhu named Kotthita : "To hold, friend, that the Tathagata exists or does not exist after death, is to view the Tathagata as rupa [and the other khandhas]. That, friend, is the reason why this [question] has not been answered by the Blessed One."" You see the reason for the unanswered questions is that they invariably are rooted in selfview based on not understanding the khandhas . The people who asked them believed in a self somewhere either in the khandhas or apart from them. In another sutta the Budha explains to Anuruddha about these 4 questions: "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life " and shows how such ideas about a Tathagata existing or not existing etc after death are quite beside the point. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.86 Anuradha Sutta "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." ""Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" "No, lord." "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata -- the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment -- being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?" "No, lord." "Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-086.html RobertK 18435 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] chicken and eggs Hi James , --- "James " wrote: > > Yes, it is 12:36 am right now in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona and I am > still awake. I had dinner, played with my niece (played `Harry > Potter'…she was Harry and I was a Grand Wizard! I can levitate > don't you know! ;-). Then I meditated (15 minutes only ), > and I am now on this computer. I will probably be awake for a few > more hours. ;-) Maybe many members want to know these > details...maybe not. Truthfully, I think we all want to know more > about each other. .... I’m like you.....I like a little background colour. It certainly sounds like you and your niece are having a lot of fun;-) Do you have snow in Phoenix? Watch out, Larry is a Harry Potter expert (or was) - I think it’s why he’s so good at talking in riddles;-) He could even live somewhere not too far from you and leviate your way...... Stay awake as long as you like as long as you’re having fun - certainly your niece is having a non-stop party with her personal entertainer;-) ..... > With this recent line of discussion, I really appreciate this post! > I actually like both sets of analogies; but I like the ocean/sailing > one more. .... I thought the same as I was typing. Very beautiful as you say. “Like the rain cloud pouring down is the knowledge of the path of arahantship.” ..... In Chinese culture, rain pouring down is considered very auspicious....We sat outside in the heaviest rain storms during the Handover ceremonies in 1997 and this was meant to be a wonderful start.....hmmm.....takes a little cultural adjustment if you come from England. ..... >I have a problem with the chicken and the egg one because > of the last parallelism, "And as the chicks go about adorning the > village field, so the great arahant enters into fruition attainment > which takes Nibana as its object, and thus adorns his monastery." > Huh? Nibbana is supposed to be taken as some sort of decoration > now? Like `Nibbana Holiday Lights' outlining a Buddhist temple to > twinkle a greeting to the un-cheery? ;-))(i.e. Dukkha enslaved) ..... LOL ....I’ll leave it for others to comment on further....though I wish to take up the phrasing “arahant enters into fruition attainment which takes Nibana as its object” that is commonly used and discuss it in another thread. ..... > WOW!! Thank you Sarah for your efforts on our behalf to provide the > full commentary. It is beautiful and breathtaking. .... I think this is a summary of the commentary. I’m actually hoping that if Nina is translating the complete commentary anyway to these passages that she’ll kindly give us the Pali with English as a ‘walk through’ and also with any other passages she does if it’s no extra trouble (and no hurry). I realize it may only be parts that she intends to use in her article. Thanks James...nice to be in agreement from time to time too;-) Sarah (AKA Heartless in Hong Kong) =========================== 18436 From: James Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > > Dear KKT (and James), > I know James doesn't like sutta quotes to be used but I hope you > don't mind if I add some as I think they are relevant. Robert K, Well!! ;-) I have never been so insulted! ;-) Sir, this calls for a duel!! ;-) Just Kidding. I know that you hold KKT in much higher regard than myself (as you probably should…showing deference for one's elders is the proper way… karma stream and otherwise) but please don't speak of me in the third person…it's not very polite. I also know, quite distinctly, don't ask my how, that this quote is a forgery or a misappropriation of the true thing: In the Samyutta Nikaya (SN. IV 385), Sariputta says to a bhikkhu named Kotthita : "To hold, friend, that the Tathagata exists or does not exist after death, is to view the Tathagata as rupa [and the other khandhas]. That, friend, is the reason why this [question] has not been answered by the Blessed One." I feel that no such wording of the suttas exists. However, since I am unavailable with a copy of the Samyutta Nikaya hardbound (Santa wasn't so good to me this year ;-) and I cannot find this sutta on the blessed Internet, I am at a loss in this duel. I challenge you to provide more of this sutta and the publishing company from which it is found…if you so desire. As far as the other sutta quotes you present, quite accurately, they further support my point; you just cannot see it yet. But you are very close! ;-) Metta, James Ps. I don't have a problem with people using sutta quotes. Heck, I probably use them more than anyone!! ;-) I have a problem with people who use them without their own analysis or explanation. In other words, I don't respect pseudo-Buddhas. Why should I? 18437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Significant Event/s Chris I'm glad you reminded me of this anniversary, otherwise it may have gone unnoticed (by me, that is). Many thanks for your kind words, and also for the kind words and end-of -year messages of everyone. I, too, am a beneficiary of the sharing and discussion that takes place on this list, and I would like to thank you all for your contributions. The quality of the discussion lately has been especially good, and I am sorry that my work commitments have kept me from joining in more. If it's any consolation, Chris, many people have gone through similar exasperations in coming to understand the teachings. Being one of those myself, I've come to realise that there's a very simple explanation for this -- the teachings are counter-intuitive to wrong view! Jon PS I have uploaded to the Photos section 2 pics of Bhikkhu Bodhi taken during his recent visit to Hong Kong. After extensive travels (China, Singapore, Sri Lanka and Germany), Ven Bodhi is now back at the Bodhi Monastery (New Jersey), where there has been thick snow over Christmas. --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, and fellow dsg-ers, > > Just wanted to draw your attention to a significant event happening > > on 28 December. Dhamma Study Group will have its third birthday. > Walking, talking, and out of nappies now! > > Thank you for the camaraderie, the sharing and teaching, the metta > > and karuna, the humour and patience, the expounding and > clarifying, > and the hair-tearing exasperation some of your posts have > caused.:-) > > Cheers, > Chris 18438 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 3:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Significant Event Sumane --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Jon, Christine & the Group, > Congrats & thanks for opportunities offered! > It is Great to be in the shade of those with prag~na; > Yet struggling to find direction, > Sumane Nice to hear from you, Sumane We are all struggling to find direction. I would say those who were born in a Buddhist country and have been exposed to the teachings from a young age are indeed fortunate! I think what we all share in common is an appreciation of the wonderful opportunity that this life has given us to study the teachings in detail. Please don't hesitate to join in at any time. Everyone benefits (and not least the person contributing). Jon 18439 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? James, (and Robert), It is in the Samyutta Nikaya Volume II Chapter X 44. Abyakatasamutta 'Connected Discourses on the Undeclared' 3. Sariputta and Kotthita suttas(1) - (4) on pps. 1383 to 1388 Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom Publications 2000. 6 Sariputta and Kotthita (4) (i) Delight in the aggregates (excerpt) "Friend, it is one who delights in form, who takes delight in form, who rejoices in form, and who does not know and see the cessation of form as it really is, that thinks: 'The Tathagata exists after death' ... or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' (note 378) This section of the sutta then goes on to say the same about one who takes delight in feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. The other sections of the sutta explain further by using: (ii) Delight in existence (iii) Delight in clinging (iv) Delight in craving (v) Another method? note 378 says Rupagatam etam. Spk: This is mere form. He shows: "No other being is found here apart from form, but when there is form there is merely this name." Spk-pt: What is being rejected here? The self posited by the outside thinkers, spoken of here as "Tathagata." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: 18440 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 3:48am Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi Charles and Andrew, It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive. You say: ------------- > To dedicate entire energies to `nama/rupa', `existence/non-existence', and `nibbana/samsara' is wrong. Such focusing will perpetuate the very thing we endeavor to cease; it will not end it. Do you want to become selfless? How do you do that in this mundane existence? Focus everything you have on the benefit of others; and do that with wisdom and patience. > ------------- What you have said is fine and just about anyone could agree with it. However, do you mean it in a way that is descriptive or in a way that is prescriptive? If we are to understand it in a way that accords with the Buddha's teaching, then we have to recognise that there is no self who `dedicates energy,' and no self who `wants to become selfless' or who `focuses with wisdom and patience.' Why would anyone prescribe a course of action, knowing that there is only this present trilli-second of a moment? Ultimately, there are no courses of action, no prescribers, no prescribees. It is beyond my ability to explain this point half as well as is done on a regular basis by other dsg members. I tend to repeat stock phrases like; "there is only nama and rupa!" This wears thin very quickly with people who are not already enamoured with the descriptive-not-prescriptive hypothesis. So, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to know what you both think of it. Kind regards Ken H PS Charles, I think your comment; "though I feel you don't hold me in high regard, never mind," is quite brilliant -- because of the `never mind' at the end. People like myself don't always take the time to reassure everyone that what they write should not be taken the wrong way. Writing is very difficult -- for some more than others -- I just have to bumble along in my imperfect fashion or not post anything at all. Let's never mind other peoples' failings. KH 18441 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman In the previous message, for 'Charles,' please read 'James.' It's been a long day (not that the surf was all that brilliant). Ken H 18442 From: Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Tathagatha exists after death? Hi, Robert (and KKT and James) - In a message dated 1/2/03 4:03:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 > " wrote: > >>Dear KKT > >>Was the Tathagatha while alive in the khandhas or apart from > them? > >>I think in the deepest sense there was no Tathagatha, there were > >>only the elements, namas and rupas arising and ceasing. > >>"The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > >>But here there is no human being to be found, > >>For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > >>Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga > XVIII > >31) > The Buddha (Tathagatha)and > >>arahants use terms such as self and person and being ; but > without > >>any misconceptions that they refer to something real. > >>"These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > >>designations in common use in the world. And of these a > Tathagata > >>makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > >>I believe that once the fuel of ignorance and craving was > >>extinguished, as Swee Boon said, then the fire of samsara became > >>cool and eventually , at khandha parinibbina, ceased forever. > >>RobertK > > > +++++++++++++ > KKT: > I understand perfectly > >your point, Robert, which I classify > >as a nihilistic view (I really mean it :-)) > >First we must have this in mind: > >The Buddha kept silent and did not > >answer to the following 4 questions: > >__Does the Tathagata <>after death? > >__Does the Tathagata <>after death? > >__Does the Tathagata either <> > >or <>after death? > >__Does the Tathagata neither <> > >nor <>after death? > > > Now I show you how I may say that > >the Buddha <>before death. > >It's very simple :-)) > >Take the Buddha and a common worldling > >and put them next to each other. > >Do you agree with me that we have > >two <> > >not really different from each other > >in the general sense of <>, OK? > > So what is the difference between them? > >On one hand we have an <>Tathagata > >and on the other hand we have an <>worldling. > >And for sure if ever this <>exists, > >it should not be found in the 5 khandhas > >because those are subject to conditions, OK? > >The difference is this <>! > > This Omniscience is the proof > >of the existence of the Buddha! > >This Omniscience <>the existence of the Buddha! > >This Omniscience <>before death > >and a` fortiori <>after death. > > Maybe one can call it <>? :-)) > >Therefore I agree with this statement of James > >< >He is alive and well (in a certain sense) >> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Dear KKT (and James), > I know James doesn't like sutta quotes to be used but I hope you > don't mind if I add some as I think they are relevant. > > In the Samyutta Nikaya (SN. IV 385), Sariputta says to a bhikkhu > named Kotthita : > "To hold, friend, that the Tathagata exists or does not exist after > death, is to view the Tathagata as rupa [and the other khandhas]. > That, friend, is the reason why this [question] has not been > answered by the Blessed One."" > > You see the reason for the unanswered questions is that they > invariably are rooted in selfview based on not understanding the > khandhas . The people who asked them believed in a self somewhere > either in the khandhas or apart from them. > > In another sutta the Budha explains to Anuruddha about these 4 > questions: "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the > Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life " and shows > how such ideas about a Tathagata existing or not existing etc after > death are quite beside the point. > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.86 > Anuradha Sutta > > > "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the > Tathagata?" > "No, lord." > "Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?" > "No, lord." > "Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?" > "No, lord." > "Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?" > "No, lord." > "Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?" > "No, lord." > ""Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without > feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without > consciousness?" > "No, lord." > "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a > truth or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to > declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata -- the supreme man, the superlative > man, attainer of the superlative attainment -- being described, is > described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata > exists after death, does not exist after death, both does &does not > exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?" > "No, lord." > "Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly &now, it is only > stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-086.html > RobertK > > > =============================== I very much like the assortment of sutta quotes you provide, Robert. To me they all roll right down the middle way. It is possible that some people could look at them and conclude that the Tathagata (and nibbana as well), is some mysterious something that is other than any of the khandhic elements, and still others will infer that that the Tathagata is nothing at all. I strongly suspect that the Tathagata, or, better, the reality corresponding to the person we conventionally call "the Tathagata", is neither of these, and is neither properly described as existent or nonexistent. From the perspective of samsara, the perpective of afflicted cognition, the things which exist in any sense at all are separate but related conditions, true but fleeting existents. Samsara is a world of extremes - of true existences counterposed to absolute nonexistences. I believe that as we practice the Buddha's way and we meet with some progress, developing insight begins to let us see through these extremities. I see the realization of nibbana as amounting to a full dissolving of our avijja-hardened cognition, leaving a perspective that is not truly describable, because the means by which description is possible, separate conditions, has been seen through and left behind. All our discussions of the Buddha before and after death, and all our conversations about nibbana, are rooted in our samsaric perspective, regardless of how well we intellectually understand the Dhamma, and that, it seems to me, is the core reason for the Buddha's cautionings against conjecturing in these areas. What he really urged us to do, I believe, is to assiduously practice the three trainings, to follow the his program and let it lead us to truth and liberation. And with the advent of full enlightenment, the meaning of the Buddha's statement that to see him and to see the Dhamma are the same will be clear. Reality is what it is, no matter how we may grasp it, and no matter whether Buddhas should arise in the world or not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18443 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi KKT, > __Does the Tathagata << exist >> after death? > __Does the Tathagata << not exist >> after death? > __Does the Tathagata either << exist >> > or << not exist >> after death? > __Does the Tathagata neither << exist >> > nor << not exist >> after death? > My interpretation of His silence > is that He let wide open the door > for His disciples to probe more > deeply into this problem. Consider Majjhima Nikaya 72: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn072.html "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply. "Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication... "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." Is there a difference between being silent and saying "doesn't apply"? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18444 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, Swee Boon (and KKT) - In a message dated 1/2/03 8:53:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi KKT, > > >__Does the Tathagata <>after death? > >__Does the Tathagata <>after death? > >__Does the Tathagata either <> > >or <>after death? > >__Does the Tathagata neither <> > >nor <>after death? > > >My interpretation of His silence > >is that He let wide open the door > >for His disciples to probe more > >deeply into this problem. > > > Consider Majjhima Nikaya 72: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn072.html > > "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the > Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its > root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the > conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from > the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, > boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't > apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does &does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' > doesn't apply. > > "Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication... > > "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would > describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, > like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, > not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of > consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to > fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' > doesn't apply. 'Both does &does not reappear' doesn't > apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." > > > Is there a difference between being silent and saying "doesn't > apply"? > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > =============================== Neither existing nor yet not existing. Neither of those extremes - rather as in the Kaccayangotta Sutta. That by which the Tathagata might be described has been abandoned. The Tathagata is beyond description - beyond reification, yet also beyond nullification. The real cannot be seen from here, from this realm of ignorance and illusion, and where it can be seen there is no means of describing it, circumscribing it, defining it, or grasping it. "Freed from the classification of form [etc], Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does &does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply" is what is said. What is deep, boundless, and hard to fathom is not nothing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18445 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 7:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Howard, > The real cannot be seen from here, > from this realm of ignorance and illusion, > and where it can be seen there is no means of describing it, > circumscribing it, defining it, or grasping it. I disagree. Samsara is REAL. Nibbana is REAL. That which is UNREAL does not exist at all. The Tathagata, unbound, gone parinibbana, is UNREAL. You and I, still bound to samsara, are REAL. The other REAL, nibbana, is to be realized! The path of the Tathagata is from the REAL to the UNREAL. > What is deep, boundless, and hard to fathom is not nothing. What is deep, boundless and hard to fathom is simply 'out'. It is simply 'kicked out' of the REAL to the UNREAL. The UNREAL is not Nothingness. It simply doesn't exist. That which doesn't exist, can we say it is Nothingness? Nothingness is an activity in naming. That which doesn't exist at all can't be named. It can't even be named Nothingness. Nothingness doesn't apply. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18446 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 7:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Howard, Just to add another point ... > That which doesn't exist at all can't be named. It can't even be > named Nothingness. That which doesn't exist at all also can't even be named 'non- existent', for 'non-existent' is also an activity in naming. That which doesn't exist at all simply can't be described, simply can't be named. Deep, boundless and hard to fathom indeed is the Tathagata. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18447 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, Swee Boon - You write below in part: "Samsara is REAL. Nibbana is REAL. That which is UNREAL does not exist at all. The Tathagata, unbound, gone parinibbana, is UNREAL. You and I, still bound to samsara, are REAL. The other REAL, nibbana, is to be realized! ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And what exactly is that? What is it to "realize" nibbana except to drop all illusion? (And you and I are REAL???) ------------------------------------------------ The path of the Tathagata is from the REAL to the UNREAL. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Now that's an interesting path: a path from the REAL to the UNREAL I can hardly think of a better definition of annihilationism than that. ======================== With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/2/03 10:04:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >The real cannot be seen from here, > >from this realm of ignorance and illusion, > >and where it can be seen there is no means of describing it, > >circumscribing it, defining it, or grasping it. > > I disagree. > > Samsara is REAL. Nibbana is REAL. > > That which is UNREAL does not exist at all. > > The Tathagata, unbound, gone parinibbana, is UNREAL. > > You and I, still bound to samsara, are REAL. > > The other REAL, nibbana, is to be realized! > > The path of the Tathagata is from the REAL to the UNREAL. > > > >What is deep, boundless, and hard to fathom is not nothing. > > What is deep, boundless and hard to fathom is simply 'out'. > > It is simply 'kicked out' of the REAL to the UNREAL. > > The UNREAL is not Nothingness. It simply doesn't exist. > > That which doesn't exist, can we say it is Nothingness? > > Nothingness is an activity in naming. > > That which doesn't exist at all can't be named. It can't even be > named Nothingness. > > Nothingness doesn't apply. > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18448 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 7:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Howard, > What is it to "realize" nibbana except to drop all illusion? Samsara is not an illusion. It is REAL. If it were an illusion, we can all continue in our fantasies. Why bother about nibbana? > (And you and I are REAL???) You and I are Samsara. And Samsara is REAL. You and I are "rupa, citta and cetasika". These three dhammas are REAL. They do exist. > Now that's an interesting path: a path from the REAL to the UNREAL. > I can hardly think of a better definition of annihilationism than that. Friend, deep, boundless and hard to fathom is the Tathagata freed from all naming activities. Annihilation doesn't apply. 'Does not exist' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. Nothingness doesn't apply. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18449 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:19am Subject: Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? Dear Robert and all, Thanks to everybody to answer to my post. Because what I wrote has merely the value of a << speculation >> so I prefers not to engage into details of discussions but to stick to the main idea in order to see clearly. My << speculation >> is: The Tathagata << does exist >> as Omniscience. And this Omniscience is not << something >> nor a << Self >> nor of the domain of the << 5 khandhas >> Yesterday, after writing that post, I suddenly realized something interesting that maybe the first Mahayana Buddhists had the same << intuitive >> observation as mine :-)) Why? Because the first Mahayana Sutras to appear are the many voluminous Prajnaparamita Sutras (Perfection of Wisdom) (now available in English by the translations of E. Conze) Prajnaparamita literally means << The Transcendental Wisdom that Brings One to the Other Shore >> If you read those Sutras then you will see that from the first page to the last page, the Prajnaparamita were constantly stressed to satiety ! :-)) So the Omniscience I mention above << IS >> this Prajnaparamita. Peace, KKT 18450 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:30am Subject: Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: So the Omniscience I mention above << IS >> this Prajnaparamita. KKT: Prajnaparamita is also called << Mother of All Buddhas >> KKT 18451 From: James Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:58am Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi Ken H., You write, Hi Charles and Andrew, "It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive …So, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to know what you both think of it…In the previous message, for 'Charles,' please read 'James." Well, this is a big subject! ;-) Before I go into the long explanation, let me give the conclusion. I do not believe that the `dhamma' of the Triple Gem is best taken as descriptive rather than prescriptive. I am not sure who has been writing that in this group, I haven't come across that statement yet, but it surely wasn't me. If you take the dhamma as descriptive over prescriptive, it is dead and useless. It becomes a set of philosophical ponderings, much like those of Aristotle, which will have little benefit to anyone in a practical sense. Additionally, such a position is impossible to take when related to dhamma. Dhamma, by its very nature, is prescriptive. Just look at your above statement, "It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive." Now, no offense, but this position is oxymoronic. `Advice' is prescriptive; you are writing that the best advice for a dhamma student is that the dhamma is not meant as advice. If that is so, why offer any advice? Why does there exist a `dhamma student'? You further write: "Why would anyone prescribe a course of action, knowing that there is only this present trilli-second of a moment? Ultimately, there are no courses of action, no prescribers, no prescribees." Okay, this position is `anatta' gone haywire. Even though there is `no self' that doesn't let us all off the hook for recognizing proper behavior, karma, and responsibility. This is hard to explain with cognitive thought, but `anatta' is a `closed system'. Though `we' don't exist except as a collection of vibrations (aggregates), one must never forget what caused those vibrations in the first place: ignorance, craving, and desire for existence. Those are the things that must be negated, not just their result. If you just cut down the tree, if you just adhere to a philosophy of `non-self', you will miss the roots. The tree will grow back again as quickly as it is cut down. This is my view. One takes refuge in the Triple Gem because it the medicine which will cure us. Thanisarro Bhikkhu expressed it well with these words: "On the internal level, the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha are the skillful qualities we develop in our own minds in imitation of our external models. For instance, the Buddha was a person of wisdom, purity, and compassion. When we develop wisdom, purity, and compassion in our own minds, they form our refuge on an internal level. The Buddha tasted Awakening by developing conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment. When we develop these same qualities to the point of attaining Awakening too, that Awakening is our ultimate refuge. This is the point where the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one: beyond the reach of greed, anger, and delusion, and thus totally secure." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/refuge.html#goi I hope this response answers your question. I still hold the position that to be `focusing everything one has on the benefit of others' is the proper way to practice `selflessness'. It doesn't mean to deny self and other. Metta, James Ps. Your writing and ability to express yourself are exemplary. I meant that you do not hold me in high regard because I do not adhere to your mode of thinking. Though I feel that is not the case anymore; since you ask to understand and not to disprove. 18452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 31, Comm, the goal op 31-12-2002 23:35 schreef peterdac4298 op peterdac4298@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> N: This is clear. Past is past already, the present has already > arisen and >> then gone, so fast. Through the Path the latent tendencies are > eradicated, >> so that defilements cannot arise in the future. Thus, I can > understand that >> past or present defilements are not abandoned. > > So, presumably, the goal of the holy life is to realize this with > total clarity, at all times, without any trace of doubt or confusion? Dear Peter, I am not sure whether I understand your question. Please could you elaborate a little? As to doubt, only the sotapanna has eradicated this. When we have theoretical understanding we have doubts, but when there is awareness we learn to understand realities. Latent tendencies of defilements can be eradicated by panna developed to the degree of lokuttara panna. This is the goal of the holy life. Nina. 18453 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:58am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 5 Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 5 All arahats abide by nature in the following three kinds of vipassanå, insight knowledge: the void abiding (suññata vihåra), the signless abiding (animitta vihåra) and the desireless abiding (appanihita vihåra)12. In the Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², to Chapter IX, Equanimity about Formations (sankhårupekkhåñåna), we read: ³With regard to the abiding in the three kinds of insight by the arahats who wish to abide in vipassanå, without fruition-attainment: they see the clinging to oneself as a danger, and they are inclined to the void abiding (suññatå vihåra, voidness of self); they see the decline(of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the void abiding. They see as a danger the characteristics of conditioned realities (sankhåranimitta), and they are inclined to the signless abiding (animitta vihåra); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the signless abiding. They see as a danger the steadfastness of clinging, and they are inclined to the desireless abiding (appanihita vihåra); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the desireless abiding. With regard to the arahats who are sukkhavipassaka, with ³dry² insight (insight alone), they have attained arahatship with lokuttara cittas without jhåna factors of the different stages of jhåna, but they have calm of citta since defilements have been completely eradicated. If they have accumulated the inclination to calm of the degree of jhånacitta, then they are able to enter fruition-attainment, which is ³abiding in bliss here now² (ditthadhamma sukhavihåra [13 ). With respect to this, we read in the Subcommentary (Tíka) to the Vinaya, the Såratthadípaní, in the section ³Through wisdom (vijjå)²: ³As to the words stating the benefit of citta which has a single object, thus, the benefit of citta with samådhi, concentration, these have been explained as follows: the benefit of ³abiding in bliss here now² (ditthadhamma sukhavihåra). The abiding in bliss (sukha) here now, the commentator describes this with the leading words that the citta has a single object and that the citta having a single object has that benefit. This refers to the arahat who has dry insight (sukkha vipassaka).²[14 Footnotes: 13. Dittha dhamma: dhammas which are seen (dittha), namely, this world, or ³here now². ³Abiding in bliss, here now², dittha dhamma sukha vihåra, has different meanings in different contexts. Here it refers to the abiding in the bliss of fruition-attainment. 14. Although an arahat is sukkha vipassaka, who has attained without having developed jhåna, after his enlightenment he may have the inclination to jhåna, and in that case he can enter fruition-attainment. Then he is ³abiding in bliss here now.² 18454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy New Year and No Need to Agree..... op 01-01-2003 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Happy New Year everyone. And may we all remember to notice the passing > of whatever the present moment may bring. A good reminder, thank you, Nina 18455 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) Hi Jon, You said > The problem in talking about the weather as vipaka, as I see it, is > that different people may be experiencing quite different vipaka due > to the same weather conditions at the very same moment. One person > may find the temperature just right (kusala vipaka) while another > person may be feeling too hot or too cold (akusala vipaka). It > doesn't really seem possible to draw any conclusion about the weather > as vipaka from that. Maybe I'm confused about kusala vs. akusala afterall. I always thought kusala/akusala is not intellectual considerations. Just because one finds the temperature just right, it does not make vipaka kusala. One cannot make an akusala vipaka kusala or vice versa. I always thought that a true understanding of whether a vipaka is kusala or akusala grows with wisdom just like you mentioned in your last paragraph. Or am I mis-understanding that as well? > Getting back to thinking about the weather (or about anything, for > that matter), the kusala or akusala nature of our thinking activity > isn't determined by the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the thinking, > but by the quality of the mental factors that accompany the thinking. > This can be known only, I believe, by a level of understanding > (panna) that directly experiences the thinking moments. You said > I think it's important to remember that whether one sees the weather > as simply the environment or as an ecological event due to one's past > cittas or kamma, it is in either case a view of things that is based > on purely intellectual considerations. Just like what I raised in this group before, how can one tell whether anyone's understanding is purely intellectual consideration or wisdom. I don't see this case is any different. My point is one cannot take weather simply as environment either when it may be in fact ecological event. Yes, it may be environment only in one case, and ecological event at another moment. One will know only when understanding of the situation comes with wisdom. metta, Wendy 18456 From: peterdac4298 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 1:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Way 31, Comm, the goal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > op 31-12-2002 23:35 schreef peterdac4298 op > peterdac4298@y...: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > > wrote: > > Dear Peter, > I am not sure whether I understand your question. Please could you elaborate > a little? As to doubt, only the sotapanna has eradicated this. When we have > theoretical understanding we have doubts, but when there is awareness we > learn to understand realities. Latent tendencies of defilements can be > eradicated by panna developed to the degree of lokuttara panna. This is the > goal of the holy life. > Nina. Thank you Nina This is more or less what I was wondering. Apologies for being vague. Peter 18457 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Way 33, Comm, Breathing "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, The Section on Breathing, p.45 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out-breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption; and because in a place not become a township it is easy for the meditator to lay hold of this subject of meditation, the Blessed One, pointing out the abode suitable for that, spoke the words, "Gone to the forest," and so forth. The Buddha is like a master of the science of building sites [vatthu vijjacariya] [Tika:] because of the pointing out by him of the suitable abode for yogis [yoginam anurupa nivasatthanu-padissanato]. As a master in the science of selecting building sites, after seeing a stretch of ground good for building a town, and after considering it well from all sides, advises: "Build the town here," and when the building of the town is happily completed receives high honor from the royal family, so the Buddha having well considered from all points the abode suitable for the meditator advises: "Here, should the subject of meditation be yoked on to." When arahantship is gradually reached by the yogi, by the expression of the yogi's gratitude and admiration with the words: "Certainly, the Blessed One is the Supremely Awakened One," the Master, receives great honor. The bhikkhu indeed, is comparable to a leopard, [T:] because like the leopard he lives alone, in the forest, and accomplishes his aim, by overcoming those contrary to him, namely, the passions. Just as a great king of leopards concealed in the forest in grass-bush, jungle-bush or hill-thicket, seizes wild buffaloes, elks, pigs and other beasts, this bhikkhu yoking himself to the subject of meditation gains the Four Real Paths and Fruits [cattaro magge ceva ariyaphalani ganhati] one after another, in succession; and therefore the men of old said: As leopard in ambush lies and captures beasts, So does this son of the Awakened One, The striving man, the man of vision keen, Having into the forest gone seize therein Fruition that truly is supreme. 18458 From: peterdac4298 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: Yasodhara (rather large) Message 18433 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Peter, > > Thanks for getting back with the extra notes. > > wrote: > > > ..... > ..... > The reason I asked is because I think we tend to read the brief details > given in the texts according to how we imagine anyone might feel during > such acts. So we read about the long pregnancy of the Bodhisatta's mother > and consider her distress, assume the angst that the Bodhisatta must have > felt by the 3 encounters and anguish/regret at leaving all that was dear > to him and the even greater distress Yasodhara must have experienced at > being deserted as her new baby was born. Some of the books we read when we > first encounter Buddhism possibly contribute to the `wallpaper decoration' > that we are only too ready to believe. When we strip back the wallpaper to > the bare textual references, I'm not sure that there is any evidence of > all this anguish. Why should the Bodhisatta, having over countless > lifetimes perfected the paramis, be `acting with extreme regret'? ..... I personally find the four divine messengers a more useful reflection than the earlier references to multiple past lives, but I do get your point. For me to be inspired by the Buddha, he has to be believable. I have to be able to say, "well if he can do it, so can I". If the Buddha is too special it makes his achievement seem more unattainable by the rest of us: well me at least. I get around this by seeing the Bodhisatta, whilst still an unenlightened being, still non-the-less special in the perfection of the virtues. I can handle this because the virtues are not self knowledge. I can well imagine that cultivating the virtues without the benefit of insight could well take innumerable rebirths: this makes him human, and a very fine one too. But non the less susceptible to anguish. Why else would he forsake his family to go off and strive so hard for its cessation? I know! It is because he resolved to do so in an earlier life in the presence of Dipankara Buddha. But this still poses the same question, why did he feel the need to do that? This question is strictly rhetorical, let us not get side tracked. Your point is that we read into the scant details of the Suttas our own projections. I would like to venture that this is exactly how I practice. The trick is not to attach to these reflections, but to freely update them as and when they become out grown and of no further value. This works because frustration, anguish, despair, etc. re-emerge and drive us onward, ever deeper into the investigation of the Buddha's Dhamma and Vinaya. By Dhamma I would include the Abhidhamma. And if this pressure from Dukkha necessitates abandoning this style of practice for something along the lines of what you are advocating, then so be it. An opportunity not to be missed. > >The Buddha > > mentions in Suttas that whilst still the Bodhisatta he was deeply > > moved by the encounter with a sick person, an old person and a dead > > person. He said he was inspired by the encounter with a yogi deep > > in meditation. He resolves to leave his family at night whilst no > > one will try to stop him, so as to live the life of a Yogi and find > > the escape from this anguish. He takes a last look at his new born > > son in the arms of his wife, but is afraid to awaken them. To me > > this all suggests that the Bodhisatta experienced at least some of > > the anguish that had previously been awoken in him by three of those > > earlier encounters. The anguish that he spent the next six years > > earnestly struggling to transcend. > ..... > Let me give a few quotes from texts used in Nanamoli's `the Life of the > Buddha' (p4f) which you referred us to recently which don't, I think, > suggest any anguish: > ***** > M123). > ***** > (A.111,38) > ***** > (M.26, 36. 85, 100) > ***** > (Sn. 111,1) > ********** There is indeed, no reference to anguish in these passages. However:- > "Now before my enlightenment, while I was still only an > unenlightened Bodhisatta...........I resort to a remote jungle- thicket > abode in the forest as one of the Noble Ones, who are free from > these defects (all mentioned above). Seeing in myself this freedom > from such defects, I find great solace in living in the forest." > (M.4) > ********** Firstly, having lived in a tropical forest for a year, i.e. during all three seasons, (an area reputed by locals to be haunted, which is why they did not cultivate it, and we could live in it), I can confirm that it is indeed a most agreeable place to dwell for a meditator. I only claim to be a regular bloke living with other equally regular fellas with nothing but the Vinaya training and discipline for protection against unwholesome fear and dread. Secondly, the Sutta quoted from above (M.4) does go on to mention the Bodhisatta's fear and dread, pp 15,16 The Life of the Buddha, ~Naanamoli: Following on from the very next line after your own quote: "I thought: 'But there are the specially holy nights of the half moons of the fourteenth and fifteenth, and the quarter moon of the eighth; suppose I spent those nights in such awe-inspiring abodes as orchard shrines, woodland shrines and tree shrines, which make the hair stand up--perhaps I should encounter the fear and dread?' "And later, on such specially holy nights as the half ... eighth, I dwelt in such awe-inspiring abodes as orchard ... shrines, which make the hair stand up. And while I dwelt there, a deer would approach me, or a peacock would knock off a branch, or the wind would rustle the leaves. Then I thought: 'Surely this is the fear and dread coming'. "I though: 'Why do I dwell in constant expectation of the fear and dread? Why not subdue that fear and dread while maintaining the posture I am in when it comes to me?' "And while I walked, the fear and dread came upon me; but I neither stood nor sat nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I stood, the fear and dread came upon me; but I neither walked nor sat nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I sat, the fear and dread came upon me: but I neither walked nor stood nor lay down till I had subdued that fear and dread. While I lay, the fear and dread came upon me: but I neither walked nor stood nor sat till I had subdued that fear and dread". ~Naanamoli's translation. For me this makes the Bodhisatta human, and as such his achievement is all the more inspiring. He did after all make mistakes with over exertion etc. before he finally found the middle way. I can relate to this and even map my own experience to the template of his life story for further guidance and inspiration. When I get it wrong, I can always rely on Ajhan Dukkha to prompt me into trying some other direction, either more or less extreme, as the case may be. > > It seems highly probable that Yasodhara understood this, if not > > immediately, then at least soon after. It is quite common for wives > > to understand their husbands better than the husbands to know > > themselves. > ..... > Certainly not common for wives to be married to the Bodhisatta who had > attained to the first jhana as a child and understood his mind states very > clearly. Meditation would seem to come quite easy to many children if approached in a skillful way. Any good Buddhist temple will have Sunday school lessons for children age from say six to twelve or so. The one in Wimbledon, Wat Buddhapadipa, has a very enthusiastic attendance. My own secular experience at around that age: I'd find myself just sat down, (in a bus of all places), when the most amazing feeling of a bliss-like-tranquillity would suddenly and unexpectedly well up, this happened on a couple of occasions around that time. I can still recollect the feeling after all this time. > ..... > >It brings to mind the image of countless women > > throughout the ages, who allowed their husbands to go off to war, > > with the distinct possibility that they wouldn't see them again. > > The way Yasodhara both lived her life and finally greeted the Buddha > > on his return suggests this depth of feeling quite clearly, to my > > mind, and is the reflection intended in what was offered above. I > > do hope it was OK. > ..... > We read about the father's sadness. I haven't read anything to suggest any > anguish on Yasodhara's part as yet. On the contrary, the little I've read > suggests to me she was inspired to follow his example and lead and for > Rahula to do the same. As we know, she became a bhikkhuni later and an > arahant. Maybe my projections again, but when I read that the Buddha requested that she great him as she wished I assumed that he anticipated the possibility of some kind of emotional display. However, non of this appears to be in any early texts, well not in ~Naanamoli's collection at least. > ..... > This has already got rather long, so I'll look at the other comments > later. I just wished to `suggest' that perhaps we always underestimate the > `extraordinary' qualities (the paramis in particular) developed by the > Bodhisatta over lifetimes and also perhaps of those who were his close > associates. How me would feel or imagine anyone would feel is not > necessarily how it would have been. > > What do you think? I entirely agree. There is indeed a need for clarity when offering a reflection to be careful not to implicate the texts where they don't actually apply. I will endeavour to be more careful in the future, for the welfare of generations to come. If I ever fall prey to this mistake again, it will be entirely due to my ignorance of the texts, and would appreciate such errors to be pointed out. > > Thanks again for your contributions on this topic and to Chris for > prompting it around somewhere;-)>. That's amaizing, how could you have possibly known?!?!?!?!?!? > > Sarah > ====== Cheers Peter 18459 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 33, Comm, Breathing Way 33: Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out-breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption... L: Someone might ask why "absorption"? Perhaps we could say a distracting sound is also a thorn to insight and tranquility and insight are mixed together in mindfulness of in-and-out breathing. It might also be being suggested that mindfulness of breathing is a way of approaching jhana. Both kayanupassana and vedananupassana are associated more with the cultivation of quietude while cittanupassana and dhammanupassana are associated more with the cultivation of insight. The predominate insight of body mindfulness is concerned with "casting out the illusion (vipallasa) of beauty" but I don't think that applies to mindfulness of breathing. So I would say a quiet, tamed mind is what we are cultivating here, so far. Comments? Larry 18460 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hello Howard, [On the unconditioned within the conditioned.] >Mainly that - free of any self/essence/core, and free of all craving, >aversion, and attachment, but a bit more as well. Also unconditioned in >the sense of not arising from conditions, volitional or other, nor comprised >of conditions - uncompounded, unmade. I wanted to ask you more about the second sentence, but on reflection I don't think we do agree. The second sentence is a standard characterization and it makes sense in terms of Suan's position that nibbana is wholly other from The All (though applying it creates problems within that context*). But how it applies to a view that is not a change in ontology is rather problematic. One can sort of naturalize nibbana away; I think that Buddhadasa and Ajhan Chah may have both done so. I find them inadequate on this core subject. But I don't think your view is of suchness, of everything is perfect as it is (in, say, a somewhat Zen type way). *Apparently* it's something like this: There's a noumenal reality which we see as distinct phenomena under the influence of the self view / avijja; this is samsara. With the dissolution of moha/dosa/lobha the noumenal reality is seen in itself (nibbana); but it doesn't contain trees or chairs or anything that is differentiated / describable. Close? In that case the second sentence readily applies. But, alas, I don't think that's the way things are so it doesn't help me :-( metta, stephen *The application of these criteria lead, with an ineluctable Parmenidian logic, to matterless — sentiencelessness. At least some of us find this a problem. 18461 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? Hello James >Ps. I don't have a problem with people using sutta quotes. Heck, I >probably use them more than anyone!! ;-) I have a problem with >people who use them without their own analysis or explanation. In >other words, I don't respect pseudo-Buddhas. Why should I? This is a bit off the mark. Robert, in particular, does include both. Yet there's a real point here. Wouldn't it be pleasant to have a no sutta week? One could only put up posts based on their actual beliefs and experiences. "Once all of you come to know the Dhamma, which is comparable to that raft, you should leave the Dhamma alone...if we cling to, gloat over, and cherish ditthi that are pure and bright, calling them ours, consider the parable of the raft just presented. We proclaim the Dhamma so that it can be used for crossing over. We should not tie ourselves to it, right?" (M.I.260) ...oops, how'd that sutta quote get in here? metta, stephen 18462 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 8:28pm Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hi Charles and Andrew, > > > It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive > not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most > valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive. > > In the Wheel publication by Bhikkhu Bodhi entitled "The Noble Eightfold Path", the author writes: "To eliminate ignorance we need wisdom, but how is wisdom to be acquired? As indubitable knowledge of the ultimate nature of things, wisdom cannot be gained by mere learning, by gathering and accumulating a battery of facts. However, the Buddha says, wisdom can be cultivated. It comes into being through a set of conditions, CONDITIONS WHICH WE HAVE THE POWER TO DEVELOP." (my emphasis). KenH, unless my grasp of the English language is completely topsy-turvey, these are words of prescription and not mere description. Do you argue that Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong? If so, what should he have written? Andrew 18463 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 8:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? Hello Stephen, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: Wouldn't it be pleasant to have a no sutta week? One could only put up posts based on their actual beliefs and experiences. "Once all of you come to know the Dhamma, which is comparable to that raft, you should leave the Dhamma alone...if we cling to, gloat over, and cherish ditthi that are pure and bright, calling them ours, consider the parable of the raft just presented. We proclaim the Dhamma so that it can be used for crossing over. We should not tie ourselves to it, right?" (M.I.260) ...oops, how'd that sutta quote get in here? metta, stephen KKT: But you forget that one drops the raft only once one is on the other shore? Not before, Stephen :-)) Metta, KKT 18464 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew " wrote: In the Wheel publication by Bhikkhu Bodhi entitled "The Noble Eightfold Path", the author writes: "To eliminate ignorance we need wisdom, but how is wisdom to be acquired? As indubitable knowledge of the ultimate nature of things, wisdom cannot be gained by mere learning, by gathering and accumulating a battery of facts. However, the Buddha says, wisdom can be cultivated. It comes into being through a set of conditions, CONDITIONS WHICH WE HAVE THE POWER TO DEVELOP." (my emphasis). KKT: I have a question here? If << wisdom cannot be gained by mere learning >> and << wisdom can be cultivated. It comes into being through a set of conditions >> then what are those conditions? And is wisdom here the same as the cetasika << Panna >> ? Thanks. KKT 18465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] chicken and eggs Dear Sarah, Thank you very much, I save it. But what is spk? Nina op 02-01-2003 08:31 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: the Sutta on chicken and eggs, S >> III, >> Middle Fifty, Ch 5, § 101 (Adze handle). (For others, note Spk refers to the > commentary to SN): > > note 212 18466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Way 33, left out passage on anapana Hi Larry and all, Way 33 we read: Right before the beginning, Because the subject... Ven. Soma left out a passage which I believe is essential for understanding this subject, for whom it is suitable and also the goal of anapanasati: developing insight and calm to the degree of jhana, using jhana as foundation for vipassana and attaining fruition of the arahat. It is also a passage translated in the Vis. VIII, 155: This is almost the same as my translation that follows (I saw the Vis tr later on): apica, yasmaa ida.m kaayaanupassanaaya muddhabhuuta.m sabbabuddhapaccekabuddhabuddhasaavakaana.m visesaadhigama-di.t.thadhammasukhavihaarapada.t.thaana.m aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m N: And thus also, with regard to the meditation subject of anapanasati which has become the topmost of Body Contemplation, being the proximate cause for abiding in ease here, now (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara, fruition attainment) for all Buddhas, Silent Buddhas and disciples of the Buddha, itthipurisahatthiassaadisaddasamaakula.m gaamanta.m apariccajitvaa na sukara.m sampaadetu.m, saddaka.n.takattaa jhaanassa. N: this is not easy to undertake when one has not abandoned the border of the village, full of sounds of women, men, elephants, horses etc. agaamake pana ara~n~ne sukara.m yogaavacarena ida.m kamma.t.thaana.m pariggahetvaa aanaapaanacatutthajjhaana.m nibbattetvaa tadeva jhaana.m paadaka.m katvaa sa"nkhaare sammasitvaa aggaphala.m arahatta.m paapu.nitu.m. N: If the meditator does not live in a village but in the forest, it is easy for him, after he has mastered this meditation subject, attained the fourth jhana of anapana sati, and made this jhana the foundation and has thoroughly comprehended conditioned dhammas (sankhare), to fulfill the highets frutuion, the fruition of arahatship; tasmaassa anuruupasenaasana.m dassento bhagavaa ``ara~n~nagato vaa''tiaadimaaha. N: Therefore the Blessed One, pointing out the dwelling suitable for that, said, gone to the forets etc. (As is) Rematks: We see here that this meditation subject is for those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship. Some time ago (In September 002) I made a study of the Co to the Anapana Sati sutta. I quote again and also include posts of Jon: We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance² designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> N : If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana. As Jon said, And Jon said also: N: I would add:the bhikkhus the sutta was addressed to were highly adept, they were arahats or they had accumulations to attain arahatship. We read even after the first tetrad (Of mindfulness of breath) in the Visuddhimagga: (Jon to Rob Ep, Sept 16): the Anapanasati Sutta is a teaching on attaining to the superior kind of insight known as 'insight both ways', based on jhana, in this case jhana with breath as object. As such, is directed at those who have already attained jhana with breath as object or who are potentially capable of doing so. For such individuals, breath is already a naturally arising object in their daily life, a daily life that is far different from yours and mine. So, no, I do not read this sutta as *advocating* anything about taking a particular object for insight development... As I have indicated, the sutta was given for the benefit of those (monks) who are already highly adept at attending to the breath (actually, its nimitta) as an object of samatha, and for those persons the sutta is indeed about the discernment of an 'everyday object'.> end quote. Nina. 18467 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] chicken and eggs Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thank you very much, I save it. But what is spk? > Nina > op 02-01-2003 08:31 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > the Sutta on chicken and eggs, S > >> III, > >> Middle Fifty, Ch 5, § 101 (Adze handle). (For others, note Spk refers > to the > > commentary to SN): > > > > note 212 ..... Spk - Saaratthappakaasini From BB's preface to SN: "Many of the notes are drawn from the Pali comentaries on SN, of which there are two. One is the authorized commentary, th Samyutta Nikaya-atthakatha, also known by its proper name, the Sarathappakasini (abbr:Spk), "The Elucidator of the Essential Meaning." This is ascribed to the great Buddhist commentator, Acariya Buddhaghosa..........The other commentarial work is the subcommentary, the Samyutta Nikaya-tikam akso known as the Sarathappakasini-purana-tika (abbr:Spk-p.t) and the Liinatthappakaasanaa (Part 111), "The Elucidation of the Implicit meaning." This is ascribed to Acariya Dhammapala... To keep the notes as concise as possible, the commentaries are generally paraphrased rather than directly quoted, but I use quotation marks to show where I am quoting directly. I have not given volume and page numbers to the citations from Spk and Spk-pt, for I did not have permanent access to the PTS edition of the former, while the latter is published only in Burmese script." ***** For others, BB continues in his preface; "I should state, as a precaution, that the commentaries explain the suttas as they were understood sometime around the first century CE at the latest, at which time the old commentaries drawn upon by Buudhaghosa were closed to further additions. the commentaries view the suttas through the lens of the complex exegetical view that had evolved within the theravada school, built up from the interpretations of the ancient teachers welded to a framework constructed partly from the principles of the Abhidhamma system......." Sarah ======= 18468 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 33, left out passage on anapana Hi Nina, Thanks for this. I had forgotten your posts on the Anapanasati Sutta. This gives me more confidence that we shouldn't be particularly concerned with insight while practicing anapanasati but rather we should be more focused on cultivating a calm tamed mind. However, it's been a long time since I last read the Anapanasati Sutta and I would like to read more of the Satipatthana Commentary before I say that insight is not part of anapanasati. I do agree that developing a calm discipline is primary in the beginning (and it could be a very long beginning) of practicing anapanasati. I agree when you say, "We see here that this meditation subject is for those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship." However, I disagree when you say that doesn't include us. I agree that the Buddha's audience was more spiritually advanced than us but we are part of his retinue so we are included. We can do it, but it might take longer. best wishes, Larry 18469 From: James Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 10:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > > > Hello James > > >Ps. I don't have a problem with people using sutta quotes. Heck, I > >probably use them more than anyone!! ;-) I have a problem with > >people who use them without their own analysis or explanation. In > >other words, I don't respect pseudo-Buddhas. Why should I? > This is a bit off the mark. Robert, in particular, does include both. (James: Stephen, I didn't specifically refer to Robert in this evaluation. Actually, I wasn't referring to Robert at all. Most people in this group do use proper analysis for quotations used, and give proper sources. When they don't, and the post is addressed to me, I scream holy murder. I think you may have seen some posts which bear that fact out. I don't just 'grin-and-bear it', because then the person will not learn and improve at communication; I also don't send off a bunch of off-list e-mails criticizing the person. I address them directly and state directly what I am displeased about and why I am displeased about it. I believe that is more in keeping with the dharma than other tactics which amount to subterfuge or patronizing.) Yet > there's a real point here. Wouldn't it be pleasant to have a no sutta week? (James: Hmmm...maybe, but I think it would be more pleasant to have a 'No Pali Terms without English equalivalents' week! ;-) Another pet peeve of mine! ;-) > One could only put up posts based on their actual beliefs and experiences. > "Once all of you come to know the Dhamma, which is comparable to that raft, > you should leave the Dhamma alone...if we cling to, gloat over, and cherish > ditthi that are pure and bright, calling them ours, consider the parable of > the raft just presented. We proclaim the Dhamma so that it can be used for > crossing over. We should not tie ourselves to it, right?" (M.I.260) ...oops, > how'd that sutta quote get in here? > metta, stephen (James: Well, some sutta usage is okay, but I don't think it should be overdone. But, since we are on the subject of 'Things that irritate James' ;-), I also wish that members would clearly identify their comments when replying to posts in-text; as I have done with this post. For example, there is currently a fascinating post that is between Peter and Sarah about Yosodhara, post #18458, that has evolved and keeps evolving. Responses are inserted within responses within responses. It is a virtual Pandora's Box to try to figure out who said what and who is referring to who. I have noticed that done quite often in this group and I usually give up and skip reading those posts. I like to know the differences between each person talking. Otherwise, it is all noise.) Metta, James 18470 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 11:07pm Subject: Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? --- please don't speak of me in the > third person…it's not very polite. Ok, sorry about that. > Ps. I don't have a problem with people using sutta quotes. Heck, I > probably use them more than anyone!! ;-) I have a problem with > people who use them without their own analysis or explanation. In > other words, I don't respect pseudo-Buddhas. Why should I? ______________ Thanks for clarifying, I misunderstood. I realied you weren't referring to me here James.(thanks for the defense anyway Stephen) Robert 18471 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 11:34pm Subject: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Dear All, wrote: > It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive > not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most > valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive. ..... For anyone who has joined DSG in the last few months and wishes to have a little more idea what Ken H is referring to, I’ve just retrieved a sample only of the messages from escribe which I think he’d be referring to. (Note: most of these are by Jon, but by following the threads at the ends of messages, you can look at others’ comments too). Best to be read in reverse order;-) ***** http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11468.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9166.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7731.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7337.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7098.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5309.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m4981.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3806.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3734.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3727.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m211.html ***** Sarah ===== 18472 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Way 10, comm: pilapanti vs plavanti. B.Bodhi comments Dear Al l (especially Suan & Jim), I just received the following letter from Bhikkhu Bodhi to be forwarded to DSG. As it’s not a recent thread and also contains difficult points, I’ve looked out the following posts which can be read through (in order) first by those wishing to follow the discussion - Sarah: ********** http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12185.html Jim http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12191.html Suan http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12264.html Sarah http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12280.html B.Bodhi to Suan http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12289.html Suan http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12760.html B.Bodhi to Suan ******************************************************* Dear Sarah, Thanks for sending the selections from the Dhamma Study Group discussions. I don’t have any comments to add on the new discussions, but let me pick up where I left off in Hong Kong, with my discussion with Suan Luzaw over the expression in AN IV 191, ‘pi lapanti’(Ee) or ‘pilapanti’ (Se) or ‘plavanti’ (Be). Suan quotes the Anguttara Commentary as giving unambiguous support to the Be reading with its gloss: te sabbe pasanne aadaase chaayaa viya plavanti, paaka.taa hutvaa pa~n~naayanti. But in the Sinhala script edition of the Anguttara Commentary, the disputed verb is read as ‘pilapanti’. Since it far more probable that a difficult reading would be normalized than that a normal reading would be converted into a difficult one (apart from typographical error, which is not the case here), the difference in the two readings shows, once again, that the Sixth Council edition has solved the problem of an enigmatic archaic reading by replacing it with a more familiar "normal" one in *both* the canonical text *and* the commentary. Thus the Burmese-script commentary can support the Burmese reading of ‘plavanti’ in the sutta because the commentary has also been edited in accordance with the same principle, namely to change the difficult reading of older editions into an easier, more familiar one. I don’t know what the older (pre-Sixth Council) Burmese editions and manuscripts had, but the fact that the PTS edition doesn’t mention a Burmese alternative to its ‘pi lapanti’ suggests that the older Be versions read pretty much the same as the PTS and Sinhala script editions. It was only at the Sixth Council that the word was revised to read ‘plavanti’. I wouldn’t say that interpreting ‘pilapanti’ as representing ‘plavanti’ is wrong. It might well be the right interpretation. But we have to be careful not to read interpretative decisions into the text. Once one looks at the Commentary with ‘pilapanti’ in place of ‘plavanti’, then it isn’t so obvious that "floating up" or "crossing over" is the intended meaning. K.R. Norman deals succinctly with this word in his short article (which for students of Pali interested in this question is well worth reading; it’s in his Collected Papers, Vol. III). Norman comes to very much the same conclusion that I came too before I was even aware of his article, namely, that the original reading may have been ‘apilapanti’, this word being equivalent in sense to ‘abhilapanti’ = to remind. I’m not sure I would go along with this interpretation now. The phrase is puzzling and the plain fact is, in the absence of further evidence, it seems impossible to know with complete certainty what is meant. But whatever interpretation I eventually arrive at, I would let the text stand without alteration. Let that be it for now. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi ******************************************************** 18473 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Clinging Aggregates Hi Steve, --- "bodhi2500 " wrote: > Hi > Does anyone have any info on where the article/book >"Aggregates > and Clinging Aggregates" can be found. Bhikkhu Bodhi has in Note 65 > of the Khandhavagga of his translation of the Samyutta >For a > detailed study of this problem see Bodhi,"Aggregates and clinging > Aggregates." I'm not sure if he means Bhikkhu Bodhi is the author or > it is in one of the Bodhi Leaves articles. .... I saw Chris tracked down the reference with her usual efficiency. I was reminded of your queery when looking for one of the other posts I came across one of these which may be of relevance too: ***** http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m8515.html Num http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m6064.html Jon http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m8365.html Num http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12457 ADL -Larry **** Actually, I'm pretty sure Nina also wrote further on this topic, but I can't find her post. (Maybe she or someone else can find it). I'd be interested to know what your interest or considerations are as I'm sure they will contain useful points. When I next f/w some posts to BB, I can also ask if he has a copy of the article he can f/w if it's a problem to get hold of. Let me know, perhaps. On your other 'space' questions which Chris and Nina gave helpful brief comments on, Rob M also wrote a couple of good posts (see 'Space' in Useful Posts)and particularly helpful are the notes Nina wrote on this and other rupas in her book (not yet printed) 'Rupas' to be found on one of these websites: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Sarah ======== 18474 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Andrew (and KenH) I hope you don't mind me coming in here. --- "Andrew " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau > " wrote: > > Hi Charles and Andrew, > > > > > > It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive > > not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most > > valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive. > > > > > In the Wheel publication by Bhikkhu Bodhi entitled "The Noble > Eightfold Path", the author writes: "To eliminate ignorance we need > wisdom, but how is wisdom to be acquired? As indubitable knowledge > of > the ultimate nature of things, wisdom cannot be gained by mere > learning, by gathering and accumulating a battery of facts. > However, > the Buddha says, wisdom can be cultivated. It comes into being > through a set of conditions, CONDITIONS WHICH WE HAVE THE POWER TO > DEVELOP." (my emphasis). > > KenH, unless my grasp of the English language is completely > topsy-turvey, these are words of prescription and not mere > description. Do you argue that Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong? If so, > what > should he have written? > Andrew It depends of course what the Ven author means by 'we have the power to develop'. Does it mean, in the context, anything other 'must be developed (by one aspiring to wisdom)'? And more importantly, what are those conditions, as described by the Buddha? The classic formulation is something like: association with the right people, hearing the teachings, considering what has been heard, and applying what has been realised. This relates to an earlier post of yours where you asked: Do we not NEED to go through all the conventional stuff as we slowly move away from the elephant? The necessary conditions of hearing, considering and applying the teachings do not include any 'going through the conventional stuff', to my understanding. Of course, we do and we will continue to, but because we are not capable of doing otherwise, not becasue it is what the teachings say is needed. Jon 18475 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 3:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1 Howard Hi, and happy new year to you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand your point. However, attaining the jhanas includes the > the arousing of a number of enlightenment factors, which puts one already a > step up on the way. By attaining jhanas, and then embarking on vipassana > bhavana, one is starting the climb having already ascended some steps. ... > -------------------------------------------------------- The view that attaining the jhanas puts one some way along the path to enlightenment is not one that I have found stated in the suttas or ancient commentaries. I agree that the Buddha encouraged monks to develop samatha, and that many who attained enlightenment at the time of the Buddha did so after attaining the jhanas, but neither of these facts requires the conclusion that the samatha/the jhanas takes one along the path that is vipassana. To my understanding, the factors that are developed in the course of attaining jhana are of a different quality to the factors of the same name that are required for the development of vipassana. Take panna (understanding, wisdom) for example. The mental factor of panna is common to both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. While the panna that accompanies moments of samatha bhavana knows the kusala or akusala quality of the present mental state, it does not know the present mental state as a nama that is anatta (not-self). To put this another way, highly developed concentration (even the jhanas) and strong wrong view are not mutually exclusive in a person. A person with strong wrong view who has attained the jhanas has no less wrong view for having done so. Nor is he a step along the way to developing the panna that is insight/vipassana, since the obstacle to his development is his wrong view, and this cannot be dispelled by the panna that accompanies samatha bhavana. The same goes for the other factors, including concentration. The concentration that accompanies the mind when it is focussed continually on a mental image to the exclusion of the sense-door experiences is not the concentration that accompanies insight that sees the true nature of a presently arising nama or rupa appearing through any of the 6 doorways. The kind of steps that count in this regard are, for example, the development of satipatthana as in the Satipatthana Sutta, or, at a more general level, the 'factors of wisdom' of association with good friends, listening the dhamma, considering what one has heard and applying what one has considered. As I see it, anyway ;-)) Jon 18476 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:13am Subject: Pandora's box Hi James & Stephen, --- "James " wrote > (James: Stephen, I didn't specifically refer to Robert in this > evaluation. Actually, I wasn't referring to Robert at all. Most > people in this group do use proper analysis for quotations used, and > give proper sources. When they don't, and the post is addressed to > me, I scream holy murder. I think you may have seen some posts > which bear that fact out. I don't just 'grin-and-bear it', .... I think we may have noticed.... ..... >because > then the person will not learn and improve at communication; I also > don't send off a bunch of off-list e-mails criticizing the person. ..... Would anyone do such a thing????;-) ..... > I address them directly and state directly what I am displeased > about and why I am displeased about it. I believe that is more in > keeping with the dharma than other tactics which amount to > subterfuge or patronizing.) ..... Oh well, as Ken H said, we all have our failings.....;-) ..... Stephen:> Yet > > there's a real point here. Wouldn't it be pleasant to have a no > sutta week? ..... Hi Stephen, Happy New Year to you too - we could have an action-packed Abhidhamma and commentaries only week just for you ..... > (James: Hmmm...maybe, but I think it would be more pleasant to have > a 'No Pali Terms without English equalivalents' week! ;-) Another > pet peeve of mine! ;-) > > (James: Well, some sutta usage is okay, but I don't think it should > be overdone. .... Ok.....that’s good..... .... >But, since we are on the subject of 'Things that > irritate James' ;-), I also wish that members would clearly identify > their comments when replying to posts in-text; as I have done with > this post. For example, there is currently a fascinating post that > is between Peter and Sarah about Yosodhara, post #18458, that has > evolved and keeps evolving. Responses are inserted within responses > within responses. It is a virtual Pandora's Box to try to figure > out who said what and who is referring to who. ..... I’ll try to do some unravelling if and when I next reply.....we wouldn’t want you to skip any pearls of wisdom or to get lost again in the box ;-) ..... >I have noticed that > done quite often in this group and I usually give up and skip > reading those posts. I like to know the differences between each > person talking. Otherwise, it is all noise.) .... ‘all noise’..Oh no...I’ll do a trade, James: I put your ‘pet peeve’ list above my computer screen and you scream holy murder off-list;-) ;-) (btw, I agree that it does help to identify who is talking....) Nice to see you around, Stephen. Sarah ======= 18477 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1 Hi again, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: ... > By attaining jhanas, and then embarking on vipassana > bhavana, one is starting the climb having already ascended some steps. Then, > classically, as in the Anupada Sutta, and as you point out, the jhanas, their > features, and especially the entering and leaving of jhanas, can serve as > objects of investigation. > -------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for giving the reference to this sutta. However, I'm not sure it supports a conclusion of 'jhana first' as the classic approach. The Anupada Sutta (MN ) is a description by the Buddha of Sariputta's enlightenment and many attainments. Given Ven. Sariputta's position as one of the aggasavaka (great disciples), I think it should be regarded as a very special case. But I think in any event it's relevant here that Ven. Sariputta either had attained the jhanas before ever hearing the Buddha's teaching, or was able to do so within a very short time (2 weeks) of that. Either way, he was ripe for both attainments. To my reading so far, the kind of bhikkhu to whom the instruction on enlightenment with jhana as base was given was the bhikkhu who had already attained jhana (or had the potential to attain it) and was firmly established in mindfulness. You may know suttas that say otherwise, and I would be very happy to be shown them. Jon 18478 From: Date: Thu Jan 2, 2003 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 1/2/03 11:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > [On the unconditioned within the conditioned.] > > >Mainly that - free of any self/essence/core, and free of all craving, > >aversion, and attachment, but a bit more as well. Also unconditioned in > >the sense of not arising from conditions, volitional or other, nor > comprised > >of conditions - uncompounded, unmade. > > I wanted to ask you more about the second sentence, but on reflection I > don't > think we do agree. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I understand why you would say that, but I actually think we *may* yet agree. I probably didn't express my meaning well. I am a non-dualist, to put a tag on it. I think that "what there is" is not some sort of joining of two totally disparate things, but, rather, is a single, dynamic reality that has one appearance under the sway of illusion, and another when seen as it is. When I say that "the unconditioned" doesn't arise from conditions and isn't composed of them, the so-called conditions I refer to to are conditions as they usually appear to us, which really means separate, self-existent, yet somehow interrelated, things - entities. I don't think that reality is actually like that. The very same world of conditions that we seem to see, when seen aright, has a character almost opposite from what it seems to have in the dark shade of reification. To give a suggestion of what I mean: On the one hand, anicca rules the world; conditions seem to arise where they were previously nonexistent, and then they cease. But these conditions, lacking own-being, and arising as they do completely in dependence on the confluence of other similarly empty conditions, are not separate, self-existent entities, but only selected-out aspects of an experiential flow - and, thus, there is no thing, no self-existent entity which ever arises or ever ceases! Look, for example, at the opening lines of Nagarjuna's Mulamadhymakakarika to see the same idea succinctly expressed. Stephen Bachelor translates this as follows: I bow down to the most sublime of speakers, the completely awakened one who taught contingency (no cessation, no birth, no annihilation, no permanence, no coming, no going, no difference, no identity) to ease fixations. --------------------------------------------------------- > The second sentence is a standard characterization and it > makes sense in terms of Suan's position that nibbana is wholly other from > The > All (though applying it creates problems within that context*). But how it > applies to a view that is not a change in ontology is rather problematic. > One > can sort of naturalize nibbana away; I think that Buddhadasa and Ajhan Chah > > may have both done so. I find them inadequate on this core subject. > But I don't think your view is of suchness, of everything is perfect as it > is > (in, say, a somewhat Zen type way). > *Apparently* it's something like this: There's a noumenal reality which we > see as distinct phenomena under the influence of the self view / avijja; > this > is samsara. With the dissolution of moha/dosa/lobha the noumenal reality is > > seen in itself (nibbana); but it doesn't contain trees or chairs or > anything > that is differentiated / describable. Close? > In that case the second sentence readily applies. But, alas, I don't think > that's the way things are so it doesn't help me :-( > metta, stephen > *The application of these criteria lead, with an ineluctable Parmenidian > logic, to matterless — sentiencelessness. At least some of us find this a > problem. > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18479 From: selamat Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 7:30am Subject: Fw: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project fyi only metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kumaara Bhikkhu" To: Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:04 PM Subject: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project Dear all, I was informed by Ven. Sujato (an Australian monk, who conducted a retreat here) of a new Pali Tipitaka project undertaken by a university (MahaCulalonkorn?) in Thailand. Here's some background information about it: 1. It all started when the mother of one of the people in the project went to Rangoon (now Yangon) to observe the proceedings of the Sixth Council. She was so inspired by it that, before she died, she asked that her son print the Tipitaka for free distribution. 2. When the VRI CSCD come out, the son decided to produce a print version of it, thereby fulfilling his mother's dying wish. 3. However, as he went over the texts, he found errors. The more he checked the more errors he found. 4. This led to a big project under the auspices of a Thai university. 5. From the research, they found out that: There are more than 30,000 discrepancies found in the VRI version. The VRI CSCD does not contain the Sixth Council version. (Sayadaw U Silananda was right.) Somehow, it is found to have taken the Fifth Council (Mandalay) version as its source. 6. Instead of reproducing the Sixth Council version (which many scholars outside Myanmar are not too happy about), they decided to produce a new version. To do this, the project took a few years and a lot of human and computer power. Among the scholars was a nun who had learnt many ancient writings to lead the transcription work. With her help, they were able to make comparison among more than ten different ancient scripts of the Pali scriptures. 7. The texts went through repeated visual *and* verbal proofreading. So, it should have minimal typographic errors. 8. The Pali Tipitaka Project has ended. As I was told, they have printed 1000 sets for free distribution and have recently launched it. If I remember correctly, they have included all the commentaries as well. Please don't ask me where to get them. We managed the contact the man (whose mother's wish started all this), and he only said he'll keep us informed. That was a few weeks ago. No news since then. peace Kumâra Bhikkhu - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only. [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali [Discussion] http://www.tipitaka.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl 18480 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 7:14am Subject: The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Everybody, I find this sutta to be very helpful and would like to point it out to those who are interested. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- 12.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full- moon night -- the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self- awakening is a prerequisite for what?' they should be told, 'For the sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way -- heedful, ardent, & resolute -- one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return." Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18481 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 1/3/03 10:15:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Everybody, > > I find this sutta to be very helpful and would like to point it out > to those who are interested. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- > 12.html > > > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. > Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full- > moon night -- the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded > by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, > he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening > to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self- > awakening is a prerequisite for what?' they should be told, 'For the > sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What > duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the > origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the > cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the > cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk > rightly contemplating this duality in this way -- heedful, ardent, & > resolute -- one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right > here &now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- > non-return." > > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > ============================= Of course there is the conditioned arising and ceasing of dukkha. But that very fact makes dukkha neither a true existent nor a nullity. Since it arises it is not nothing at all, but since it ceases it lacks essence. (See the Kaccayangotta Sutta in this regard.) Emptiness is the key - anatta. Not too much should be read into the use of the word 'dualities'. (The Buddha also used the words 'I', 'me', 'mine', and 'self' all the time. Reificationists just love to latch onto those usages - like life preservers for folks drowning in a raging sea.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18482 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 7:41am Subject: The Tathagata has no passion for nibbana. Hi Everybody, I find this sutta to be very helpful also and would like to point it out to those who are interested. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html In this sutta, the Buddha talked about directly knowing nibbana as nibbana. He taught that an Awakened One has no passion even for nibbana. An interesting point to note is that at the end of this discourse, the monks who heard the Tathagata's teachings did not delight in it. "The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has comprehended it to the end, I tell you. "He directly knows water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind... beings as beings... gods as gods... Pajapati as Pajapati... Brahma as Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the gods of abundant fruit... the Great Being as the Great Being... the dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness as the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness as the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception... the seen as the seen... the heard as the heard... the sensed as the sensed... the cognized as the cognized... singleness as singleness... multiplicity as multiplicity... the All as the All... "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has comprehended it to the end, I tell you. "The Tathagata -- a worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self- awakening, I tell you. "He directly knows water as water... the All as the All... "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into- being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you." That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased, the monks did not delight in the Blessed One's words. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18483 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 7:57am Subject: The Discourse that quaked the ten-thousand fold cosmos. Hi Everybody, I find this discourse to be very interesting. Even the ten-thousand fold cosmos quaked. How marvellous the Dhamma is! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-123.html On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali at Gotamaka Shrine. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "It's through direct knowledge that I teach the Dhamma, not without direct knowledge. It's with a cause that I teach the Dhamma, not without a cause. It's with marvels that I teach the Dhamma, not without marvels.[1] Because I teach the Dhamma through direct knowledge and not without direct knowledge, because I teach the Dhamma with a cause and not without a cause, because I teach the Dhamma with marvels and not without marvels, there is good reason for my instruction, good reason for my admonition. And that is enough for you to be content, enough for you to be gratified, enough for you to take joy that the Blessed One is rightly self- awakened, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, and the community has practiced rightly." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the ten-thousand fold cosmos quaked. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18484 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Howard, > Of course there is the conditioned arising and ceasing of dukkha. > But that very fact makes dukkha neither a true existent nor a > nullity. Since it arises it is not nothing at all, but since it > ceases it lacks essence. That's very good! And I tell you, there is another reality which is the cessation of that very arising of dukkha and the cessation of that very dissolution of dukkha. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18485 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi, Swee Boon and all - The following is a sutta I find very helpful. With metta, Howard **************************************************** Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-015.html /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18486 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 1/3/03 11:11:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >Of course there is the conditioned arising and ceasing of dukkha. > >But that very fact makes dukkha neither a true existent nor a > >nullity. Since it arises it is not nothing at all, but since it > >ceases it lacks essence. > > That's very good! > > And I tell you, there is another reality which is the cessation of > that very arising of dukkha and the cessation of that very > dissolution of dukkha. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > ============================ Perhaps we are not so far apart as first meets the eye. What you call "another reality" I think of as simply the way things really are, and the way they are seen to be when our "seeing" is unaffected by avijja. It seems to me that how things really are is so radically different from the way things *seem* to be to us worldlings that to call it "another reality" is not so much of a stretch. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18487 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 8:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Howard, > But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually > is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the > world does not occur to one. > When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is > with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world > does not occur to one. "Origination of the world" refers to the arising and dissolution of dukkha; samsara. "Cessation of the world" refers to the cessation of arising and the cessation of dissolution of dukkha; nibbana. Where one sees the arising and dissolution of dukkha, 'non- existence' does not apply. Where one sees the cessation of arising and the cessation of dissolution of dukkha, 'existence' does not apply. Where one sees both the origination and cessation of the world, knowing samsara as samsara, knowing nibbana as nibbana, 'non- existence' does not apply, 'existence' does not apply. Seeing both, the arahant transcends both; goes to an end that cannot be classified. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18488 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] NEO of The Matrix (Was:Re: Dhamma Issues...etc.) Hi All This question abt whether Nibbana is an object for conditioned mind is very interesting. Some of my initial hunch is that: a. Without Nibbana as an object, then it is not quite possible to go there. It is grasping air. A conditioned mind before going to nibbana needs a condition hence I think that is why Nibbana is an object to attain Nibbana. Then will it comes to the a problem, since Nibbana is preceded by a conditioned mind, doesn't it make it conditioned also. A good explanation will be like the process of changing the catepillar to a butterfly. Butterfly once shed the cocoon will not be longer affected by this previous form however needs the previous form as a basis to become a butterfly. b. Second question, is cessation. When we talk about cessation, I think the point it is the cessation of the catepillar. What is the buttlerfly then, Buddha has describe it and I believe present catepillar from cannot understand or conceptualise or visual it at all. I always believe when we talk about cessation, we talk about cessation of the conditioned mind and it is not scary at all bc we know we going to be butterfly. kind rgds KC 18489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 10:02am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 6 Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 6 5. In the ³Visuddhimagga² Ch XXIII, 6, Description of the Benefits in Developing Understanding (what is fruition-attainment?), the meaning of phala-samåpatti, fruition-attainment, has been explained: ³It is absorption in the cessation (nirodha) in which the Noble Fruition (ariya phala) consists.² We should consider the following: how could an ariyan who is not able to attain jhåna, have calm of citta to the degree of absorption which has nibbåna (cessation) as object, after the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness which arose at the moment of enlightenment, have fallen away? The ³Visuddhimagga² (XI, 120) in the Conclusion of the Explanation about Concentration (samådhi) (in ³The benefits of developing concentration²: the benefit of blissful abiding here now (ditthidhamma sukhavihåra) states: ³For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here now for the arahats with cankers destroyed who develop concentration, thinking ŒWe shall attain (enter samåpatti) and dwell with unified mind in bliss for a whole day¹. The development of attainment concentration (appanå-samådhi) of those monks is said to have as benefit blissful abiding here now...² This shows that a person who is able to enter fruition-attainment which is ³blissful abiding here now², must be able to attain jhåna. The Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the ³Paramattha Mañjuså², the Mahå-tíka, Commentary to ³the Benefits of Concentration², clearly explains that in order to enter fruition-attainment, it is necessary to develop samådhi to the degree of attainment-concentration (appanå samådhi, which is jhåna), and not merely access concentration (upacåra samådhi). We read: ³By the word samåpatti, attainment, used here, it has been made clear that it is attainment-concentration, appanå-samådhi. It is true that one may also take the words, Œ citta is one-pointed, ekagga¹, for access concentration, and therefore, to refute this (interpretation), the teachers thus said, Œ the development of attainment-concentration, appanå samådhi, (by them) ¹.² 18490 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? In a message dated 1/2/03 8:52:24 PM, phamdluan@a... writes: >KKT: But you forget that >one drops the raft only >once one is on the other shore? > >Not before, Stephen :-)) If one is attached to the raft they'll never get to the other shore. (But I meant: it's possible to just talk about the raft and it's tremendous sea worthiness as it sits on the bank. One can talk about where they are in the sea ;-) adrift, stephen 18491 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 11:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? Hello Stephen, You say: "Once all of you come to know the Dhamma, which is comparable to that raft, you should leave the Dhamma alone...if we cling to, gloat over, and cherish ditthi that are pure and bright, calling them ours, consider the parable of the raft just presented. We proclaim the Dhamma so that it can be used for crossing over. We should not tie ourselves to it, right?" (M.I.260) ...oops, how'd that sutta quote get in here?" Christine: Just a little confused by your citation (M.I. 260) - which sutta were you referring to? My copy of the Majjhima Nikaya only goes up to Sutta No. 152, though numbering systems could differ. The Alagaddupama Sutta may be what you are referring to. (MN 22) In this sutta, a bhikkhu named Arittha gives rise to a pernicious view that conduct (sensual pleasure) prohibited by the Buddha is not really an obstruction. The Buddha reprimands him and, with a series of memorable similes, (including the snake and the raft), stresses the dangers in misapplying and misrepresenting the Dhamma. The sutta culminates in one of the most impressive disquisitions on non-self found in the Canon. excerpt: 13. "Bhikkhus, I shall show you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping. "(n.254) The simile of the Raft, (according to note 254 Nanamoli and Bodhi) states "This famous 'simile of the raft' continues the same argument against misuse of learning introduced by the simile of the snake. One who is preoccupied with using the Dhamma to stir up controversy and win debates carries the Dhamma around on his head instead of using it to cross the flood." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 1/2/03 8:52:24 PM, phamdluan@a... writes: > > >KKT: But you forget that > >one drops the raft only > >once one is on the other shore? > > > >Not before, Stephen :-)) > > If one is attached to the raft they'll never get to the other shore. > (But I meant: it's possible to just talk about the raft and it's tremendous > sea worthiness as it sits on the bank. > One can talk about where they are in the sea ;-) > adrift, stephen 18492 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 0:56pm Subject: Re: Way 33, left out passage on anapana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Right before the beginning, Because the subject... > Ven. Soma left out a passage which I believe is essential for understanding > this subject, for whom it is suitable and also the goal of anapanasati: > developing insight and calm to the degree of jhana, using jhana as > foundation for vipassana and attaining fruition of the arahat. > It is also a passage translated in the Vis. VIII, 155: this mindfulness of breathing as a meditation subject- which is foremost > among the various meditation subjects of all Buddhas, [some] Paccekaa > Buddhas and [some] Buddhas¹ disciples as a basis for attaining distinction > and abiding in bliss here and now- is not easy to develop without leaving.. __________ Dear Nina, Thanks for pointing out this omission from Venerable Soma's translation. I wonder if he left out other sections? In my first few years in buddhism Anapanasati was promoted by some teachers and books as if it was a basic subject. I remember being surprised when I read more in the commentaries to find that it was considered the most profound and difficult of all objects of samatha. Robert > the neighbourhood of villages... , 18493 From: peterdac4298 Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Sarah Just got through the links and their threads, as recommended below. It took me the entire day, but it was the most useful day I've spent since I disrobed more than a decade ago. Cheers Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > wrote: > > > It is often said on dsg that the Dhamma is descriptive > > not prescriptive. I think this is possibly the most > > valuable piece advice any Dhamma student can receive. > ..... > For anyone who has joined DSG in the last few months and wishes to have a > little more idea what Ken H is referring to, I've just retrieved a sample > only of the messages from escribe which I think he'd be referring to. > (Note: most of these are by Jon, but by following the threads at the ends > of messages, you can look at others' comments too). > > Best to be read in reverse order;-) > ***** > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11468.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9166.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7731.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7337.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7098.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5309.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m4981.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3806.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3734.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3727.html > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m211.html > ***** > Sarah > ===== 18494 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:21pm Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Andrew (and KenH) > > I hope you don't mind me coming in here. > > Jon Thanks for this post, Jon. I have been reading the previous on-topic posts kindly provided by Sarah and for the first time am getting a sense of what is being said. Much to contemplate. Will let you know how I am going a bit later. Language is an imperfect tool! Thanks again. Andrew > 18495 From: peterdac4298 Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: Pandora's box Hi Sarah, James & Stephen Was going to have a go at this myself, but since Sarah offered I think I'll leave well alone: my attempts would only add to the problem! Cheers Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James & Stephen, > > --- "James " wrote > > >But, since we are on the subject of 'Things that > > irritate James' ;-), I also wish that members would clearly identify > > their comments when replying to posts in-text; as I have done with > > this post. For example, there is currently a fascinating post that > > is between Peter and Sarah about Yosodhara, post #18458, that has > > evolved and keeps evolving. Responses are inserted within responses > > within responses. It is a virtual Pandora's Box to try to figure > > out who said what and who is referring to who. > ..... > I'll try to do some unravelling if and when I next reply.....we wouldn't > want you to skip any pearls of wisdom or to get lost again in the box ;-) > ..... > >I have noticed that > > done quite often in this group and I usually give up and skip > > reading those posts. I like to know the differences between each > > person talking. Otherwise, it is all noise.) > .... > `all noise'..Oh no...I'll do a trade, James: I put your `pet peeve' list > above my computer screen and you scream holy murder off-list;-) ;-) > > (btw, I agree that it does help to identify who is talking....) > > Nice to see you around, Stephen. > > Sarah > ======= 18496 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Dear Group, For the last few days I've been taking long treks in the forest in New Zealand. I was thinking over the ideas we have about `situation' and place and how different this is from understanding the present moment. Just 10 days ago I was walking along Sukumvit – a busy street in Bangkok – with similar reflections. Forest, Metropolis are concepts; but really only seeing, hearing, hardness….thinking with lobha(attachment) dosa (aversion), ignorance… Sometimes we may feel our current lifestyle is not suited to Dhamma and believe that if only we lived in ideal circumstances – such as a cave in the mountains or under a tree in the jungle - that then we would make fast progress. And for some these circumstances are better: for instance those of the Buddha's monks who developed anapanasati had to go to isolated areas by themselves. And monks are allowed to take up the 13 dhutanga. One group of seven in the time of Kassapa Buddha even went to the top of a mountain and pushed away the ladders so they could not get down again, for them it was a helpful condition, one or two became arahant within a couple of days. Laypeople too can live very simple lives, we can see stories of these in the suttas, it can be helpful. But too there are such examples as Bimbisara who was a sotapanna yet still lived as a King and kept his 500 wives. While another king(I forget the name) immediately gave up his kingdom and wives hearing about the Buddha. Ugga of vessali was the chief among those who give pleasing gifts (manapadayakanam) and he gave up his 4 wives – but only after he became an Anagami-third stage of Enlightenment- (one who has no sense desire and can no longer live in normal man-wife relations) Anguttara Nikaya IV.208: "Now, sir, I had four wives, young girls, and I went and spoke to them thus: "Sisters, I have embraced the five rules of training in the godly life. Who wishes, may enjoy the wealth of this place, or may do deeds of merit, or may go to her own relations and family; or is there some man you desire to whom I may give you?"""end quote. There seems to be so many different lifestyles and circumstances that the followers of the Buddha lived. And I think if we try to estimate what is right for us while still within the clutch of concepts it may be misleading. If there is insight into khandhas here and now, without concern for whether we are in our imagined right situation or right job, then wisdom is developing regardless and it is wisdom – a conditioned phenomena – that will come to know what is best. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn21-010.html the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Elder, that you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Yes, lord." ... "But how do you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Lord, alone I enter the village for alms, alone I return, alone I sit withdrawn, alone I do walking meditation. That is how I live alone and extol the virtues of living alone." ... "There is that way of living alone, Elder. I don't say that there isn't. Still, listen well to you how your living alone is perfected in its details, and pay close attention. I will speak." ... "As you say, lord," Ven. Elder responded. ... The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." RobertK 18497 From: James Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 6:58pm Subject: Re: Pandora's box --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298 " wrote: > Hi Sarah, James & Stephen > > Was going to have a go at this myself, but since Sarah offered I > think I'll leave well alone: my attempts would only add to the > problem! > > Cheers > Peter > Hi Peter, Oh, wow, how magnanimous of you! I guess I should just forget this asinine post of yours and not add my own asinine post to the fray! Oops…too late! Well, as Sarah writes, "… we all have our failings.....;-)" Metta, James 18498 From: James Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 7:00pm Subject: [dsg] NEO of The Matrix (Was:Re: Dhamma Issues...etc.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi All > > This question abt whether Nibbana is an object for conditioned mind > is very interesting. > > Some of my initial hunch is that: > > a. Without Nibbana as an object, then it is not quite possible to > go there. It is grasping air. A conditioned mind before going to > nibbana needs a condition hence I think that is why Nibbana is an > object to attain Nibbana. Then will it comes to the a problem, since > Nibbana is preceded by a conditioned mind, doesn't it make it > conditioned also. A good explanation will be like the process of > changing the catepillar to a butterfly. Butterfly once shed the > cocoon will not be longer affected by this previous form however > needs the previous form as a basis to become a butterfly. > > b. Second question, is cessation. When we talk about cessation, I > think the point it is the cessation of the catepillar. What is the > buttlerfly then, Buddha has describe it and I believe present > catepillar from cannot understand or conceptualise or visual it at > all. I always believe when we talk about cessation, we talk about > cessation of the conditioned mind and it is not scary at all bc we > know we going to be butterfly. > > > > kind rgds > KC KC and All, These are some very interesting arguments. They do demonstrate a certain level of deep thinking. Please allow me to explain things from my perspective, which is quite different than yours. If you don't agree, never mind. I don't have any desire to prove you wrong and me right. However, I would like to point you and others in what I believe is the most beneficial direction. If others think I am pointed in the wrong direction that is fine also. As you didn't use any sutta quotes, I am not going to either. I want to speak from the entirety of my experience and learning. First, let's go back to before the Buddha was enlightened. He was a very unhappy person, distressed, and unsatisfied with life. This dissatisfaction was so deep that it haunted his days and nights. He put his mind to the nature of human existence, the nature of atman, and the turbulence in saw in those around him, and he could not find the solution with his mind. He studied the Vedic texts and practiced meditation since a very young child, and still he was dissatisfied. He saw that no matter was enumerated about human existence, no matter what purifications and rituals were performed, his state of being always went back to one of distress. His mind went deep into the problem that he felt; deeper than most of those of his time. And he determined that he suffered because he had been born. And because he had been born, he would also suffer the realities of old age, sickness, and death. While most of his contemporaries thought that these things were just `natural' and that Nibbana or wisdom could be found `around them' and `with them', Gotama knew better. He knew deep in his bones that the answer laid in his very existence…in birth, life, old age, sickness, and death. The distress that he felt over this matter was so severe that he abandoned his riches, his family, and his comforts to become a samana. Now, let's skip the stages in-between because you, and most, know them already. After discovering the middle path, he set out to find the answer. In a state of yogic contemplation, called Jhanic Levels, his mind peered into the nature of his very existence. Life, Birth, Death, it all hung there as the fodder for his contemplation. He did not want to disappear or be annihilated; he wanted to discover the nature of his existence. He wanted to find out why he had been born and why he was to die. What was the point? Why did he suffer so; and why did everyone, who was also human, suffer so? In this deep peering, this concentrated effort, `Gotama' more and more was forsaken. `He' wasn't important in this quest, his `nature' was most important. Finally, he discovered the secret. That to `know' what he was seeking, he had to `become' what he was seeking. He had to forsake `Gotama' and become Nibbana. Then, what he was seeking and what he was became one thing. He had reached Nibbana. Nibbana wasn't an object of `the mind of Gotama' that `he' `knew'; his mind had become Nibbana. It had become free. `Gotama' didn't exist any longer; he was then The Buddha, the Enlightened One. He would no longer be subject to birth, death, old age, sickness, or death because those things were not born of his true nature, they were born of craving, ignorance, and desire to keep existing. When those things were removed, he became his true nature. Existence and non- existence don't apply to the state of Nibbana that was the Buddha; those are features of the mind. Gotama had transcended himself, achieved an exstasis, and become immeasurable. This is just my view. If you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 18499 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 8:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Dear Group, I have been following with interest a number of the threads involving anatta, nibbana and right view. It would seem that for an understanding of nibbana one must understand not-self (anatta), and in order to understand anatta one must have right view (samma- ditthi). So, it seems that everything hangs off samma-ditthi. I wonder if anyone has the time to answer some questions from the Theravada perspective as found in the Pali Canon. This post is a little garbled, but please plough on. Is the truth of anatta not that there is 'no self', but that there is no 'separate' self? I am having difficulty in understanding this. Is separateness an illusion that enlightenment dissolves, and we find our way to the Home that has always been there hidden from us only by the veils of ignorance? Is our study of the present moment to find out that there is no permanent unchanging self, realising corelessness and impermance, and therefore, the dukkha of this whole existence just another way of saying that all is illusion and there is no difference between Samsara and Nibbana? I find it difficult to think of Nibbana as the same as Samsara - I wonder why then bother with the Path of Purification? I think this also touches on my question on keeping sila ... If the Buddha stated that all he taught was Dukkha, its cause, its cessation and the Path leading to that cessation, surely it is the "ending of suffering" that is Nibbana, the release from Samsara - does this have to mean a merging of all into one? Coming from a religion that taught God as the Ground of All Being - I have a wariness about the overpowering human need to return to the safe, secure womb, and the misinterpretation of this desire influencing and filtering our view of any meditation 'experience'. I don't see that the Buddha said we need to understand things as illusions, and that Wisdom needs to see samsara and nibbana as coalescing like a giant transcendental amoeba. I think what I'm also partly saying is that my understanding is that, regarding Nibbana, the Theravada tradition does not support non- duality in any form - am I mistaken? metta, Christine 18500 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? Hello Christine, >Christine: Just a little confused by your citation (M.I. 260) - >which sutta were you referring to? My copy of the Majjhima Nikaya >only goes up to Sutta No. 152 Page 191 of Phra Prayudh Payutto's Buddhadhamma runs together two quotes on the raft from the MN; I did not notice that it was two and think I took a bit from both. The first is footnoted M.I. 135, the second M.I. 260. Now M.i.135 is the simile of the raft from the Alagaddupama Sutta, and M.i. 260 is from the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta. I should have changed the "I" to a less confusing "i" and not missed the footnote within the indented quote in the text. Ah, if it were only this easy to clear up other issues ;-) metta, stephen (Just in passing, on the relation of samadhi and vipassana you brought up references for recently, it works like this ;-) : If one can sit down and concentrate on their breathing and count from 1 to 10 — only that!— while fully maintaining concentration of breathing (in breath counting is easier than out breath) then they can do vipassana; otherwise it's just pretense.) 18501 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pandora's box Hello Sarah, >Hi Stephen, Happy New Year to you too - we could have an action-packed >Abhidhamma and commentaries only week just for you I tried that once, all summer; it just didn't work for me. (In the beginning, after collecting an alarming number of odd notes on those pesky Pali terms, and endless lists/matika, I felt a need to sort it all out: What does it really mean? The BIG picture. My first attempt was to combine it with an ecological view of the self; dark green Dhamma. I could do a better job today but this was a real disappointment. A few years later, and a few years back, I decided: why not abhidhamma? So I spent a summer trying to work thorough my seemingly ever expanding notes using some of Nina's works, and some others. Nope, no way. I'm almost ready for a third attempt. Don't hold your breath ;-). Rather than explain why abhidhamma doesn't work (no need to thank me) I'll tell you my New Year's Resolution: all paths are complimentary. Merely different ways of approaching or mapping the same thing. Can't we all just get along? ;-) Now New Year's resolutions are asankhata, right? So there's no way for anicca to dissolve them. >Nice to see you around, Stephen. Thank you. I've been (and remain) obsessed with two problems that can't be readily discussed hereabouts, what with all the restless natives. I hear there may even be cannibals. Lot of good stuff in Zen and Dzogchen where I've been looking but there's one way that Thera and abhidhamma beat all the other schools: clarity (=honesty) of exposition. (That didn't violate my resolution did it?) metta, stephen 18502 From: Date: Fri Jan 3, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hello Howard, Well, *now* I think that we may agree after all. You're setting out to drive me crazy, aren't you ;-) I'll think over your post; it's not your explanation, it's that I can't quite sort this out. If the unconditioned doesn't describe a separate reality or dhatu outside The All, nor the mind in itself (reifying emptiness seems popular in fact, though always denied), then it's in the relation of...but "relation" is dualistic...working on it. (If everything can be viewed as suchness and perfect in itself then what about things that are horrific? Now Bernie Glassman writes: "A Nazi putting a young child into the Auschwitz gas chamber is also prajna, so we can't look at prajna in terms of right and wrong, good and bad. The sword of Manjusri, the sword of wisdom, cuts away all dualisms, leaving only what is. The functioning of that state is prajna." "Infinite Circle," p.8. The suchness interpretation of nibbana is correct; of that I have no view. But this statement is repulsive to me. And the relative / absolute doesn't seem entirely helpful. My other obsession of late. Possibly you, or KKT have some thought. Possibly even James, who claims a Zen streak — not unlike myself. Really doesn't belong here on dsg though.) >Howard: > >I understand why you would say that, but I actually think we *may* >yet agree. I probably didn't express my meaning well. I am a non-dualist, to >put a tag on it. I think that "what there is" is not some sort of joining of >two totally disparate things, but, rather, is a single, dynamic reality that >has one appearance under the sway of illusion, and another when seen as it >is. When I say that "the unconditioned" doesn't arise from conditions and isn't >composed of them, the so-called conditions I refer to are conditions >as they usually appear to us, which really means separate, self-existent, >yet somehow interrelated, things - entities. I don't think that reality is >actually like that. The very same world of conditions that we seem to see, >when seen aright, has a character almost opposite from what it seems to >have in the dark shade of reification. To give a suggestion of what I mean: >On the one hand, anicca rules the world; conditions seem to arise where they were >previously nonexistent, and then they cease. But these conditions, lacking >own-being, and arising as they do completely in dependence on the confluence >of other similarly empty conditions, are not separate, self-existent >entities, but only selected-out aspects of an experiential flow - and, >thus, there is no thing, no self-existent entity which ever arises or ever ceases! >Look, for example, at the opening lines of Nagarjuna's Mulamadhymakakarika >to see the same idea succinctly expressed. Stephen Bachelor translates this >as follows: >I bow down to the most sublime of speakers, the completely awakened one >who taught contingency (no cessation, no birth, no annihilation, no permanence, >no coming, no going, no difference, no identity) to ease fixations. I liked the long intro to "Verses From the Center" but the actual text I found quite perplexing. metta, stephen 18503 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 0:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Tathagatha exists after death? Hello Stephen, You may be interested in reading Patrick Kearney's explanation (I think I have mentioned him to you before?) of the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta. He ends with a Zen story: http://www.meditation.asn.au/teachings.html We end with a reminder of the net of craving within which Bhikkhu Sati is trapped. What does he crave? How is he trapped? And how can he escape? there is a Zen story about a Zen student who found a bottle with a ship constructed within it. The problem he was faced with is: How do you get the ship out of the bottle without breaking the bottle? The student grew increasingly frustrated as he tried to work this out, and finally, in despair, he rang his teacher and pleaded for the answer. The teacher replied, "Forget about the ship; just get out of the bottle!" And with regards to the counting breath/vipassana method .. who sez? and can I use a rosary? :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > > Hello Christine, > > >Christine: Just a little confused by your citation (M.I. 260) - > >which sutta were you referring to? My copy of the Majjhima Nikaya > >only goes up to Sutta No. 152 > Page 191 of Phra Prayudh Payutto's Buddhadhamma runs together two quotes on > the raft from the MN; I did not notice that it was two and think I took a bit > from both. The first is footnoted M.I. 135, the second M.I. 260. Now M.i.135 > is the simile of the raft from the Alagaddupama Sutta, and M.i. 260 is from > the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta. I should have changed the "I" to a less > confusing "i" and not missed the footnote within the indented quote in the > text. > Ah, if it were only this easy to clear up other issues ;-) > metta, stephen > > (Just in passing, on the relation of samadhi and vipassana you brought up > references for recently, it works like this ;-) : If one can sit down and > concentrate on their breathing and count from 1 to 10 â€" only that! â€" while > fully maintaining concentration of breathing (in breath counting is easier > than out breath) then they can do vipassana; otherwise it's just pretense.) 18504 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pandora's box Hi Stephen, --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > >. A few years later, and a > few > years back, I decided: why not abhidhamma? So I spent a summer trying to > work > thorough my seemingly ever expanding notes using some of Nina's works, > and > some others. Nope, no way. I'm almost ready for a third attempt. Don't > hold > your breath ;-). ..... I won’t, but if I can help with anything I’d be glad to. My approach has always been very different to this -- I’ve never tried to work it out, so to speak, or studied lists or charts even, except incidentally. For the BIG picture you refer to, I think that just by really reflecting on and understanding (at whatever level) the various namas and rupas that make up life and experience now as we know it -- nothing more or less -- the details of the Abhidhamma and the other texts take care of themselves. I hope that doesn’t sound patronising or confusing further - it’s not meant to. ..... > Rather than explain why abhidhamma doesn't work (no need to thank me) > I'll > tell you my New Year's Resolution: all paths are complimentary. Merely > different ways of approaching or mapping the same thing. Can't we all > just > get along? ;-) ..... Perhaps, just perhaps, one reason why the ‘abhidhamma doesn’t work’ for you might be that you are trying to see ‘all ways of approaching or mapping the same thing’. This can be a hindrance, I think. It’s easier to understand or appreciate the abhidhamma if one is not trying to relate it to a philosophy, psychology or one’s understanding of a particular school of Buddhism. Just a suggestion, Stephen. ..... > Now New Year's resolutions are asankhata, right? So there's no way for > anicca > to dissolve them. ..... ;-) ..... > but there's one way that Thera and abhidhamma beat all the > other > schools: clarity (=honesty) of exposition. (That didn't violate my > resolution > did it?) ..... Well this ‘restless native’ just zapped up yr other comments (not following any such resolutions);-) I’ll leave you to any comparisons...... Give Abhidhamma a chance..... After all, as everyone keeps saying, it’s just seeing or visible object, like or dislike and so on appearing now. Sarah p.s. Do New Year resolutions come with New Year gifts? If so (or even if not so, how about one for our photo album or at least one of the usual excuses Chris can set to work on;-)) ====== 18505 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Peter, --- "peterdac4298 " wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Just got through the links and their threads, as recommended below. > It took me the entire day, but it was the most useful day I've spent > since I disrobed more than a decade ago. ..... Running an active list for us is mostly a real joy. It can sometimes be quite demanding and occasionally there are hiccups -- often these are when we are really busy or on holiday. This kind of message makes any work involved or any hiccup really worthwhile. Thank you for letting us know. If you feel up to sharing a little more in your own words, we’d all be glad to hear (and it might be a useful exercise for yourself as well). You never know, someone might even write a musical score to accompany it;-) In appreciation, Sarah ===== 18506 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Swee Boon & All, Just a couple of extra points here on the Aggivacchagotta sutta - let me know if you don’t agree: > Consider Majjhima Nikaya 72: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn072.html > > "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the > Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its > root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the > conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. ..... S: like the fire when the fuel has been used up -no conditions for future arising. All defilements eradicated. ..... >Freed from > the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, > boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't > apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' > doesn't apply. ..... S: the form is incapable of arising in future. The wisdom and liberation from samsara of the Tathagata is ‘deep...’. like the fire, ‘reappears’ amd ‘does not reppear’ are inapplicable. Commentary (given by BB): “ ‘does not reappear’ actually does apply, in the sense that the arahant does not undergo a new existence. but if Vaccagotta were to hear this he would misapprehend it as annihilationism, and thus the Buddha denies that it applies in the sense that annihilation is not a tenable position.” ..... > > "Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication... > > "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would > describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, > like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, > not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of > consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to > fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' > doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't > apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." > > > Is there a difference between being silent and saying "doesn't > apply"? ..... I agree with all your conclusions. Both are applicable to describing parinibbana. Views of eternalism and annihilationism are both bound up with the view of self (see Brahmajala sutta and commentary). Many thanks for all your contributions and to those like Howard and KKT who continue to prompt them. Sarah ===== 18507 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 33, left out passage on anapana Dear Nina and Rob K, --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > Dear Nina, > Thanks for pointing out this omission from Venerable Soma's > translation. I wonder if he left out other sections? .... There have been one or two other sections that Nina has highlighted - for example, the parrot one. I think it’s really helpful that Nina is highlighting these. I pass them on to B.Bodhi who tells us he has been asked to continue on as president of BPS, allbeit from a distance. I think this is good news. Perhaps in future publications, the missing parts may be added, though it may not be for a very long time as I think he mentioned before that they have large stocks of ‘The Way’ and of course, everyone is busy. ..... > In my first few years in buddhism Anapanasati was promoted by some > teachers and books as if it was a basic subject. I remember being > surprised when I read more in the commentaries to find that it was > considered the most profound and difficult of all objects of samatha. ..... I think the section Nina highlighted is an important one too and I’m not sure why it would have been left out. It’s a difficult subject. For anyone interested, they may like to look at posts under ‘anapanasati’ in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Enjoy the walks in the forests in New Zealand while you have the chance, Rob - sounds more fun than walking in Sukhumvit or the subway in Tolyo, even if the ‘seeing’ and ‘visible objects’ are no more worthy of being clung to;-) Nice to see you around, too. (Btw, Mike N sent a short note and particularly asked to have his regards sent to everyone here. He's been given a second-hand computer, so hopefully, we may here from him sometime.) Sarah ===== 18508 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] NEO of The Matrix (Was:Re: Dhamma Issues...etc.) Hi, James - I think this is a remarkable presentation. Whether one agrees or disagrees with it, it must be appreciated for its simultaneous depth, simplicity, and loveliness. (It happens that, subject to my own interpretive reading of it, I *do* agree with it.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/3/03 10:00:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > >Hi All > > > >This question abt whether Nibbana is an object for conditioned mind > >is very interesting. > > > >Some of my initial hunch is that: > > > >a. Without Nibbana as an object, then it is not quite possible to > >go there. It is grasping air. A conditioned mind before going to > >nibbana needs a condition hence I think that is why Nibbana is an > >object to attain Nibbana. Then will it comes to the a problem, > since > >Nibbana is preceded by a conditioned mind, doesn't it make it > >conditioned also. A good explanation will be like the process of > >changing the catepillar to a butterfly. Butterfly once shed the > >cocoon will not be longer affected by this previous form however > >needs the previous form as a basis to become a butterfly. > > > >b. Second question, is cessation. When we talk about cessation, I > >think the point it is the cessation of the catepillar. What is the > >buttlerfly then, Buddha has describe it and I believe present > >catepillar from cannot understand or conceptualise or visual it at > >all. I always believe when we talk about cessation, we talk about > >cessation of the conditioned mind and it is not scary at all bc we > >know we going to be butterfly. > > > > > > > >kind rgds > >KC > > KC and All, > > These are some very interesting arguments. They do demonstrate a > certain level of deep thinking. Please allow me to explain things > from my perspective, which is quite different than yours. If you > don't agree, never mind. I don't have any desire to prove you wrong > and me right. However, I would like to point you and others in what > I believe is the most beneficial direction. If others think I am > pointed in the wrong direction that is fine also. As you didn't use > any sutta quotes, I am not going to either. I want to speak from the > entirety of my experience and learning. > > First, let's go back to before the Buddha was enlightened. He was a > very unhappy person, distressed, and unsatisfied with life. This > dissatisfaction was so deep that it haunted his days and nights. He > put his mind to the nature of human existence, the nature of atman, > and the turbulence in saw in those around him, and he could not find > the solution with his mind. He studied the Vedic texts and practiced > meditation since a very young child, and still he was dissatisfied. > He saw that no matter was enumerated about human existence, no matter > what purifications and rituals were performed, his state of being > always went back to one of distress. His mind went deep into the > problem that he felt; deeper than most of those of his time. And he > determined that he suffered because he had been born. And because he > had been born, he would also suffer the realities of old age, > sickness, and death. While most of his contemporaries thought that > these things were just `natural' and that Nibbana or wisdom could be > found `around them' and `with them', Gotama knew better. He knew > deep in his bones that the answer laid in his very existence…in > birth, life, old age, sickness, and death. The distress that he felt > over this matter was so severe that he abandoned his riches, his > family, and his comforts to become a samana. > > Now, let's skip the stages in-between because you, and most, know > them already. After discovering the middle path, he set out to find > the answer. In a state of yogic contemplation, called Jhanic Levels, > his mind peered into the nature of his very existence. Life, Birth, > Death, it all hung there as the fodder for his contemplation. He did > not want to disappear or be annihilated; he wanted to discover the > nature of his existence. He wanted to find out why he had been born > and why he was to die. What was the point? Why did he suffer so; > and why did everyone, who was also human, suffer so? In this deep > peering, this concentrated effort, `Gotama' more and more was > forsaken. `He' wasn't important in this quest, his `nature' was most > important. Finally, he discovered the secret. That to `know' what > he was seeking, he had to `become' what he was seeking. He had to > forsake `Gotama' and become Nibbana. Then, what he was seeking and > what he was became one thing. He had reached Nibbana. Nibbana > wasn't an object of `the mind of Gotama' that `he' `knew'; his mind > had become Nibbana. It had become free. `Gotama' didn't exist any > longer; he was then The Buddha, the Enlightened One. He would no > longer be subject to birth, death, old age, sickness, or death > because those things were not born of his true nature, they were born > of craving, ignorance, and desire to keep existing. When those > things were removed, he became his true nature. Existence and non- > existence don't apply to the state of Nibbana that was the Buddha; > those are features of the mind. Gotama had transcended himself, > achieved an exstasis, and become immeasurable. > > This is just my view. If you don't agree, okay. > > Metta, James > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18509 From: nidive Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Sarah, > S: the form is incapable of arising in future. The wisdom and > liberation from samsara of the Tathagata is `deep...'. like the > fire, `reappears' amd `does not reppear' are inapplicable. The sutta says the Tathagata is 'deep...', but it didn't say the wisdom and libration from samsara of the Tathagata is 'deep...'. ??? > Commentary (given by BB): " `does not reappear' actually does > apply, in the sense that the arahant does not undergo a new > existence. but if Vaccagotta were to hear this he would > misapprehend it as annihilationism, and thus the Buddha denies > that it applies in the sense that annihilation is not a tenable > position." That is one reason. But I think there is another reason that will at the same time include the above reason. Repudiating the four 'ultimate realities' of rupa, citta, cetasika and nibbana, can you describe another 'ultimate reality'? It is impossible, because that 'something' lies beyond range of what can be known or can be comprehended. 'Something' that lies beyond range of ... cannot perform the feat of 'does not reappear'. To perform the feat of 'does not reappear', an object of reference with regard to the feat is required. Such an object of reference must exist within range, that is, must exist either as rupa, citta, cetasika (or their composition) or nibbana. (Surely, if it is beyond range, how can it be an object of reference in the first place?) The Tathagata, at parinibbana, is beyond range. The Tathagata cannot be the object of reference with regard to the feat 'does not reappear'. Hence, 'does not reappear' does not apply. It is invalid. Even so, the Tathagata cannot be the object of reference with regard to the feat 'annihilation'. Hence, 'annihilation' does not apply. It is invalid. In this way, the Tathagata is said to be boundless, for there is no case by which the Teacher can be the object of reference with regard to any feat at all (whatever feat we can come up with). Even so, the fire that had gone out cannot be the object of reference with regard to any feat at all. Whenever we think about that fire which had gone out, that fire is merely our imagination, a concept. In actual fact, that fire is 'beyond range'. Even so, whenever we think about the Tathagata (or any arahant gone parinibbana), the Tathagata (or that arahant) is merely our imagination, a concept. In actual fact, the Tathagata (or that arahant) is 'beyond range'. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18510 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 1/4/03 12:41:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hello Howard, > Well, *now* I think that we may agree after all. You're setting out to > drive > me crazy, aren't you ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah! It's a helluva hobby!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > I'll think over your post; it's not your explanation, it's that I can't > quite > sort this out. If the unconditioned doesn't describe a separate reality or > dhatu outside The All, nor the mind in itself (reifying emptiness seems > popular in fact, though always denied), then it's in the relation of...but > "relation" is dualistic...working on it. > (If everything can be viewed as suchness and perfect in itself then what > about things that are horrific? Now Bernie Glassman writes: "A Nazi putting > a > young child into the Auschwitz gas chamber is also prajna, so we can't look > > at prajna in terms of right and wrong, good and bad. The sword of Manjusri, > > the sword of wisdom, cuts away all dualisms, leaving only what is. The > functioning of that state is prajna." "Infinite Circle," p.8. The suchness > interpretation of nibbana is correct; of that I have no view. But this > statement is repulsive to me. And the relative / absolute doesn't seem > entirely helpful. My other obsession of late. Possibly you, or KKT have > some > thought. Possibly even James, who claims a Zen streak — not unlike myself. > Really doesn't belong here on dsg though.) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suppose there are different "levels" at which things can be considered. The one thing that is not available to us, unfortunately, is easy answers. It is clear, I think, that the Buddha who had uprooted all defilements and was no longer caught in samsara (that is, was no longer under the sway of illusion), was also not living in a homogeneous realm of perfection, unable to distinguish "good" from "bad", and "useful" from "harmful". He could still function quite effectively and eminently sanely in this world of 10,000 things. The Buddha was the sanest counselor imaginable to kings and outcastes alike, dealing with the most practical day-to-day questions of ethics and right action. I see complete enlightenment as a radical enlargement of perspective (resulting from the complete uprooting of defilements) - I see it as superior in every way. (The full understanding of an event or series of events, such as the Nazi horrors, would not include an obliteration of the monstrousness involved; it would include it, perfectly clearly, but seen in its entirety with no aspects missed.) --------------------------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > >I understand why you would say that, but I actually think we *may* > >yet agree. I probably didn't express my meaning well. I am a non-dualist, > to > >put a tag on it. I think that "what there is" is not some sort of joining > of > >two totally disparate things, but, rather, is a single, dynamic reality > that > >has one appearance under the sway of illusion, and another when seen as it > >is. When I say that "the unconditioned" doesn't arise from conditions and > isn't > >composed of them, the so-called conditions I refer to are conditions > >as they usually appear to us, which really means separate, self-existent, > >yet somehow interrelated, things - entities. I don't think that reality is > >actually like that. The very same world of conditions that we seem to see, > >when seen aright, has a character almost opposite from what it seems to > >have in the dark shade of reification. To give a suggestion of what I > mean: > >On the one hand, anicca rules the world; conditions seem to arise where > they > were > >previously nonexistent, and then they cease. But these conditions, lacking > >own-being, and arising as they do completely in dependence on the > confluence > >of other similarly empty conditions, are not separate, self-existent > >entities, but only selected-out aspects of an experiential flow - and, > >thus, there is no thing, no self-existent entity which ever arises or ever > > ceases! > >Look, for example, at the opening lines of Nagarjuna's Mulamadhymakakarika > >to see the same idea succinctly expressed. Stephen Bachelor translates > this > >as follows: > >I bow down to the most sublime of speakers, the completely awakened one > >who taught contingency (no cessation, no birth, no annihilation, no > permanence, > >no coming, no going, no difference, no identity) to ease fixations. > > I liked the long intro to "Verses From the Center" but the actual text I > found quite perplexing. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've just looked at it on-line. I own the translations and commentaries by Kalupahana and by Garfield. I like Garfield's the best, by far. ------------------------------------------------------- > metta, stephen > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18511 From: nidive Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. > Is the truth of anatta not that there is 'no self', but that > there is no 'separate' self? My perspective is that there is 'no self'. > I think what I'm also partly saying is that my understanding is > that, regarding Nibbana, the Theravada tradition does not support > non-duality in any form - am I mistaken? My perspective is that that is the case. Duality is what the Buddha taught. Samsara and Nibbana are not one giant amoeba. They are two opposing realities. "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned." -- Ud VIII.3 Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18512 From: nidive Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Christine, I am sorry to have forgotten to address you in my last post. And I have something to add on the issue of anatta. This sutta shows that the actual answer given by the Buddha is 'no self'. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat down to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?" When this was said, the Blessed One was silent. "Then is there no self?" A second time, the Blessed One was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?" "Ananda, if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" This sutta shows that, in actual fact, the Buddha wanted to say 'no self', but instead he was silent on two grounds. (1) Arising of Annihilation View (2) Bewilderment The last paragraph shows that the Buddha's actual intended answer is 'no self'. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18513 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 1/4/03 10:12:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > If I -- > being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self -- were > to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the > arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" > > "No, lord." > > "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no > self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered > Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used > to have now not exist?'" > > > This sutta shows that, in actual fact, the Buddha wanted to say 'no > self', but instead he was silent on two grounds. > > (1) Arising of Annihilation View > (2) Bewilderment > > The last paragraph shows that the Buddha's actual intended answer > is 'no self'. > > ============================ I think your analysis is exactly right! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18514 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 33, left out passage on anapana Hi Larry and all, I would like to answer, but now I am so busy with 400 pages of checking the text of Survey. It may take a week or more. Have to wait, or maybe others will come in! Yes, just now see Jon's post to Howard: end quote. Lodewijk just shouts: best regards to you Larry, thus, best wishes for the New Year from both of us, Nina. P.S. A correction: I did my study of Anapana around Sept 001, no wonder you do not remember all details. op 03-01-2003 07:20 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I agree when you say, "We see here that this meditation subject is for > those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship." > However, I disagree when you say that doesn't include us. I agree that > the Buddha's audience was more spiritually advanced than us but we are > part of his retinue so we are included. We can do it, but it might take > longer. 18515 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 9:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Dear Stephen, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: (If everything can be viewed as suchness and perfect in itself then what about things that are horrific? Now Bernie Glassman writes: "A Nazi putting a young child into the Auschwitz gas chamber is also prajna, so we can't look at prajna in terms of right and wrong, good and bad. The sword of Manjusri, the sword of wisdom, cuts away all dualisms, leaving only what is. The functioning of that state is prajna." "Infinite Circle," p.8. The suchness interpretation of nibbana is correct; of that I have no view. But this statement is repulsive to me. And the relative / absolute doesn't seem entirely helpful. My other obsession of late. Possibly you, or KKT have some thought. Possibly even James, who claims a Zen streak â€" not unlike myself. Really doesn't belong here on dsg though.) KKT: Since you mention the sword of Manjusri and your perplexity about the dualism, I cannot resist to quote something from a Mahayana Sutra. You will see that in this Sutra Manjusri tries to kill the Buddha with his sword of Wisdom ! (O my God, such a lese-majesty! :-)) Hope that Sarah doesn't feel any objection (Hello Sarah :-)) Just some flavor of non-duality :-)) Bodhisattva << Crown >> Manjusri is the personification of Prajnaparamita, the Wisdom beyond all duality. At that time, in the assembly there were five hundred Bodhisattvas who had achieved the four dhyanas and the five miraculous powers. These Bodhisattvas were immersed in dhyana, whether sitting or standing. They did not slander the Dharma, though they had not yet acquired the realization of the Dharma-truth. Possessing the miraculous power of knowing their past lives, these Bodhisattvas perceived their past evil karma--killing their fathers, mothers, or Arhats; destroying Buddhist temples or stupas; or disrupting the Samgha. Because they clearly perceived their past evil karma, they were always obsessed by profound misgivings an remorse, so that they could not realize or penetrate the profound Dharma. It was because they discriminated a self and were unable to forget their past transgressions that they could not achieve the realization of the profound Dharma. At that time, in order to rid those five hundred Bodhisattvas of mental discrimination, the World-Honored One inspired Manjusri with his miraculous power; as a result, Manjusri rose from his seat, adjusted his robe, bared his right shoulder, and holding a sharp sword in hand, advanced straight toward the World-Honored One to kill him. Hurriedly, the Buddha said to Manjusri, "Stop, stop! Do not do the wrong thing. Do not kill me in this way. If you must kill me, you should first know the best way to do so. Why? Because, Manjusri, from the beginning there is no self, no others, no person; as soon as one perceives in his mind the existence of an ego and a personal identity, he has killed me; and this is called killing." Having heard the Buddha say this, the [five hundred] Bodhisattvas thought, "All dharmas are illusory, like magic. In them there is no self, no personal identity, no sentient being, no life, no person, no human being, no youth, no father, no mother, no Arhat, no Buddha, no Dharma, no Samgha. There is neither killing nor killer; how can there be falling [to the miserable planes of existence] because of killing? Why is this so? Now, Manjusri is wise and intelligent, and his unrivaled wisdom is praised by the Buddhas, the World-Honored Ones. He has already achieved the unhindered realization of the profound Dharma, made offerings to countless ... billions of myriads of Buddhas ... comprehended well and in detail all Buddha-Dharmas, and can discourse on those true doctrines. He [used to] have equal respect for all Tathagatas. But now, he suddenly came to kill the Tathagata with a sword, and the World-Honored One told him hurriedly, 'Stop, stop! Manjusri, do not kill me! If you must, you should know the best way to kill me.' Why? Because if there were any real dharma that could come into existence through the combination of various elements, so that it could be called Buddha, Dharma, Samgha, father, mother ... , and if these dharmas could definitely be grasped, then they could never be demolished. Actually, all dharmas are without substance or entity; they are nonexistent, unreal, delusive, perceived through wrong views, and empty, like magic productions. Therefore, there is no sinner and no sin. Where is the killer to be punished?" Having contemplated and understood this, the [five hundred] Bodhisattvas immediately achieved the Realization of the Nonarising of Dharmas. Overwhelmed with joy, they ascended in midair to the height of seven palm trees one upon another, and spoke in verse: [...] At that time, the Venerable Sariputra asked Manjusri, "Great sage, now you have performed the most wicked karma. You attempted to kill the great Teacher of gods and humans. When this karma comes to maturity, what retribution will you receive?" Manjusri answered Sariputra, "It is so, virtuous one, just as you say; I have performed such a wicked karma. However, I really do not know how I shall receive any retribution. Sariputra, in my opinion, I shall undergo it just as a magically produced being does when his illusory karma ripens. Why? Because the magically produced being makes no discrimination and has no thoughts, and all dharmas are illusory, like magic. Furthermore, Sariputra, let me ask you something, and you may answer as you like. What do you think? Do you think that you have really seen the sword?" Sariputra answered, "No." Manjusri asked, "Are you sure that the evil karma definitely exists?" Sariputra answered, "No." Manjusri asked, "Do you definitely perceive a retribution for that evil karma?" Sariputra answered, "No." Manjusri said, "Thus, Sariputra, since there is no sword and no karma or retribution, who performs that karma and who will undergo the karmic retribution? Yet you now ask me what retribution I will receive?" Sariputra asked, "Great sage, why do you say so?" Manjusri answered, "In my opinion, there is no such thing as the ripening of a karmic result. Why? Because all dharmas are devoid of karma, karmic results, and the ripening of karmic results." ... Hope you enjoy the reading :-)) Peace, KKT 18516 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hello Christine, >I think what I'm also partly saying is that my understanding is that, >regarding Nibbana, the Theravada tradition does not support non- >duality in any form - am I mistaken? Do we agree that subject / object is a dualism? Me / I in here, the world out there. Do we agree that anatta means no self? No me / I in here (in the khandhas). So there isn't *this* duality? What would experience be like without a subject? It's cold and my heater is breaking; the belt is coming lose and makes a huge amount of racket. It's up on the roof where I can't fix it. Now, as I was reading this morning sometimes this was very irritating, and at other times it didn't bother me at all. You can attach to it and make dukkha, or not. Ud VIII.3 describes a state of mind where samsara gets no purchase, has no footing. It's always put up in isolation from the Bahiya part: In the seen just the seen...No self, no subject / object dualism. That's the cessation of the world of dukkha. The mind without self is unmoving (unconditioned), merely reflecting the world exactly as it is. [>And with regards to the counting breath/vipassana method .. who sez? >and can I use a rosary? :-) Mala, not rosary ;-) I sez. If one can't even hold concentration to count to 10 how can they possibly pretend to do vipassana? The Buddha was rather more stringent: he wanted 4 jhanas as part of the path.] [I'll download some of Patrick's stuff; really liked his paper on paticca sammuppada. Thank you.] metta, stephen 18517 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Neo, In the book "Food for the Heart," Ajahn Chah makes the following statement on this subject: "When we have this kind of peace established in our minds we can depend on it, (ie when we do not chase after liking and disliking). This peace, we say, has arisen out of confusion. Confusion has ended. The Buddha called the attainment of final enlightenment as "extinguishing," in the same way that fire is extinguished. We extinguish fire at the place where it appears. Wherever it is hot, that's where we can make it cool. And so it is with enlightenment. Nibbana is found in samsara. Enlightenment and delusion exist in the same place;lace, just as do hot and cold. It's hot where it was cold and cold where it was hot. When heat arises, the coolness disappears, and when there is coolness, there's no more heat. In this way nibbana and samsara are the same." I see it like those 3D pictures that use to be in every shopping mall. Looked at normally they just looked like a pattern of lines. But when we let our focus go and star at them a 3D picture emerges. So is the picture really just lines or a 3D picture? It is both depending on how they are viewed, thus they are the same and yet different, depending on how they are seen different. Thus I think it can say they are both the same and different depending on how nibbana or samsara are viewed. This is why I think this discussion arises so often, each side is correct depending on how they are viewing the "picture." Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. > > Is the truth of anatta not that there is 'no self', but that > > there is no 'separate' self? > > My perspective is that there is 'no self'. > > > > I think what I'm also partly saying is that my understanding is > > that, regarding Nibbana, the Theravada tradition does not support > > non-duality in any form - am I mistaken? > > My perspective is that that is the case. > > Duality is what the Buddha taught. Samsara and Nibbana are not one > giant amoeba. They are two opposing realities. > > "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. > If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, > there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- > become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely > because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, > emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is > discerned." > -- Ud VIII.3 > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 18518 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 0:00pm Subject: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > Dear Group, > For the last few days I've been taking long treks in the forest in > New Zealand. I was thinking over the ideas we have about `situation' > and place and how different this is from understanding the present > moment. Just 10 days ago I was walking along Sukumvit – a busy > street in Bangkok – with similar reflections. Forest, Metropolis are concepts; but really only seeing, hearing, hardness….thinking with > lobha(attachment) dosa (aversion), ignorance… >______________ Dear sarah, You wrote: "Enjoy the walks in the forests in New Zealand while you have the chance, Rob - sounds more fun than walking in Sukhumvit or the subway in Tokyo, even if the `seeing' and `visible objects' are no more worthy of being clung to;-)"". Actually I find it hard to think that way. Don't you enjoy (attachment) the different smells, sights , sounds of the busy parts of Bangkok and isn't hardness the same everywhere (albeit that footpaths are harder than pineneedles to walk on). Going to an even busier city: I was entranced by Varanasi - pure clinging except at the moments of studying dhammas (and occasional reflections on death down at the funeral pyres). Still I cling to quite places too: I'm off later in the week for a 3 day hike in a real isolated part of NZ. One of the best things about the forest in new Zealand is that there are no snakes or harmful creatures so we don't even need a tent to sleep out (but bring mosquito repellant). As you know it is not the situation that makes for happiness/aversion: instead it is the thinking after the different vipaka cittas arise. If the thinking is rooted in (lobha) attachment then one feels happy, if in aversion (dosa) one feels sad and if in panna then contentment and freedom of some level. RobertK P.s. I just received the cd - thanks! 18519 From: peterdac4298 Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Peter, Sarah:- If you feel up to sharing a little more in your own words, we'd all be glad to hear (and it might be a useful exercise for yourself as well). You never know, someone might even write a musical score to accompany it;-) Peter:- I am beginning to appreciate the value of clear thinking and expression. Honesty of heart or gut so often turns out to be an expression of wrong view. It seems that when ever the Dhamma gets tasted it becomes very addictive and the form in which it arose rapidly becomes the new technique that will change or even save the world. Having just resolved to see everything as Nama Rupa, I find my past catching up with me again. Perhaps it is a good way to start the ball rolling, so to speak. I'll have to persuade James to act as my agent!-) In appreciation, Sarah ===== Cheers Peter 18520 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Andrew and James, If you have been reading the posts on descriptive v's prescriptive that Sarah listed, you will know what I have been trying to say. I think you will agree that once we see that the Dhamma is not a course of action to be followed but a description of reality to be understood, then we will also see that it couldn't be any other way. Just as the Eight-fold Path of the Ariyans is a moment of consciousness with Nibbana as its object, so too the worldling's (Buddhist or non-Buddhist)path is a moment of consciousness with either a conditioned dhamma or a concept as it's object. When right understanding arises (when there is direct understanding of a conditioned dhamma object), then there is a moment of satipatthana. But with or without right understanding, reality is always just a moment of consciousness; anything outside that is illusory (concept, pannatti). It can't be any other way; in reality, there can't be courses of action. So when the Buddha seems to be prescribing "do this to achieve that, don't do this to avoid that," he can only be properly understood to be saying, "this being present, that arises, this being absent, that ceases." We must `see conditionality everywhere, in all things.' Kind regards, Ken H 18521 From: dotl Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] B. Bodhi Thankyou Sarah for news of B. Bhodi- We were wondering how he is these days, at our meeting on Saturday. dotl 18522 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 33, left out passage on anapana Dear Nina, After reviewing the Visuddhimagga I am still not 100% clear why samadhi is brought in here in the description of anapanasati. Sati is not samadhi and samadhi is not satipatthana but they seem to be mixed together in many of the practices of satipatthana. A quick look at the 16 bases of anapanasati (see below) shows that this is not just transic absorption, though jhana could apparently arise in the course of practice. I think Soma Thera, and probably Nyanaponika Thera who advised him, were at pains to down-play the samadhi aspect, as this seems to be a totally intimidating aspect of practice these days. Your argument that the advanced stages of practice are so far beyond us that we shouldn't even begin seems a little questionable to me. I readily admit to spending many years floundering about in anapanasati and Buddhism in general, but those years were all positive accumulations that led to today and today will hopefully lead to a better tomorrow. I do think that intellectual understanding leads to more profitable results and there is always room for improvement in that regard, but there is no substitute for practical experience. best wishes, Larry ps: There are many interesting aspects of anapanasati outlined in the Visuddhimagga. Our commentary only gives a brief description. The 16 Bases of Anapanasati ...he (she) knows: 1. I breathe in long, breathe out long. 2. I breathe in short, breathe out short. 3. breathes in/out experiencing the whole breath body. 4. breathes in/out tranquilizing the bodily formation. 5. breathes in/out experiencing happiness. 6. breathes in/out experiencing bliss. 7. breathes in/out experiencing the mental formation. 8. breathes in/out tranquilizing the mental formation. 9. breathes in/out experiencing the manner of consciousness. 10. breathes in/out gladdening the manner of consciousness. 11. breathes in/out concentrating the manner of consciousness. 12. breathes in/out liberating the manner of consciousness. 13. breathes in/out contemplating impermanence. 14. breathes in/out contemplating fading away. 15. breathes in/out contemplating cessation. 16. breathes in/out contemplating relinquishment. 18523 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi, Ray - Excellent! I've long thought that those "Magic Eye" pictures serve as great metaphors for Buddhist concepts such the "identity" of samsara and nibbana, and also dependent origination. BTW, I'm about 3/4 of the way through reading Food for the Heart, and I'm enjoying it immensely. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/4/03 2:26:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > > Hi Neo, > > In the book "Food for the Heart," Ajahn Chah makes the following > statement on this subject: > > "When we have this kind of peace established in our minds we can depend on > it, (ie when we do not chase after liking and disliking). This peace, we > say, has arisen out of confusion. Confusion has ended. The Buddha called > the attainment of final enlightenment as "extinguishing," in the same way > that fire is extinguished. We extinguish fire at the place where it > appears. Wherever it is hot, that's where we can make it cool. And so it > is > with enlightenment. Nibbana is found in samsara. Enlightenment and > delusion > exist in the same place;lace, just as do hot and cold. It's hot where it > was cold and cold where it was hot. When heat arises, the coolness > disappears, and when there is coolness, there's no more heat. In this way > nibbana and samsara are the same." > > I see it like those 3D pictures that use to be in every shopping mall. > Looked at normally they just looked like a pattern of lines. But when we > let our focus go and star at them a 3D picture emerges. So is the picture > really just lines or a 3D picture? It is both depending on how they are > viewed, thus they are the same and yet different, depending on how they are > seen different. Thus I think it can say they are both the same and > different depending on how nibbana or samsara are viewed. This is why I > think this discussion arises so often, each side is correct depending on > how > they are viewing the "picture." Ray > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18524 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi, Ken - So, no decisions are ever made and no volition ever exercised? All dhammas except cetana are "realities"? With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/4/03 4:52:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Andrew and James, > > If you have been reading the posts on descriptive v's > prescriptive that Sarah listed, you will know what I have > been trying to say. I think you will agree that once we > see that the Dhamma is not a course of action to be > followed but a description of reality to be understood, > then we will also see that it couldn't be any other way. > > Just as the Eight-fold Path of the Ariyans is a moment of > consciousness with Nibbana as its object, so too the > worldling's (Buddhist or non-Buddhist)path > is a moment of consciousness with either > a conditioned dhamma or a concept as it's object. When > right understanding arises (when there is direct > understanding of a conditioned dhamma object), then there > is a moment of satipatthana. But with or without right > understanding, reality is always just a moment of > consciousness; anything outside that is illusory > (concept, pannatti). > > It can't be any other way; in reality, there can't be > courses of action. So when the Buddha seems to be > prescribing "do this to achieve that, don't do this to > avoid that," he can only be properly understood to be > saying, "this being present, that arises, this being > absent, that ceases." We must `see conditionality > everywhere, in all things.' > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18525 From: azita gill Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Happy New Year and No Need to ............. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > op 01-01-2003 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op > LBIDD@w...: > > > Happy New Year everyone. And may we all remember > to notice the passing > > of whatever the present moment may bring. > A good reminder, thank you, > Nina Dear Nina, Larry and everyone, Yes, a good reminder indeed. I,ve been thinking about the tradition of making a New Year's resolution, and I found this in my little book from years ago. 'Remember, the greatest intention [chanda] to have, when kusala acts are performed, is the intention to eradicate defilements. If intention is for good results in the future then one can go on forever and forever, but defilements will not be eradicated.' However, chanda arises without 'us' doing anything anyway - but still a good reminder. And I also found this on patience: 'Patience in reality, is many cetasikas, but patience can help us to deal with a harmful person, help us thro miserable conditions and in its highest form, be patient for awareness to arise and experience realities as they really are.' I think the above must have followed on from a discussion we were having because I have since learnt that patience is one cetasika -Khanti. May we all develop patience, courage and good cheer this year. Azita 18526 From: nidive Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 8:14pm Subject: Re: The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Ray, > Nibbana is found in samsara. Enlightenment and delusion > exist in the same place;lace, just as do hot and cold. It's hot > where it was cold and cold where it was hot. When heat arises, > the coolness disappears, and when there is coolness, there's no > more heat. In this way nibbana and samsara are the same." So, does the arahant abandons both samsara and nibbana? Or, is the arahant both samsara and nibbana? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18527 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hello Ken, >It can't be any other way; in reality, there can't be >courses of action. So when the Buddha seems to be >prescribing "do this to achieve that, don't do this to >avoid that," he can only be properly understood to be >saying, "this being present, that arises, this being >absent, that ceases." We must `see conditionality >everywhere, in all things.' Yes, well what is present is effort of will; it's conditioned all right, but it's not something that passively happens, it's something one actively does. "And, what, monks, is Right Effort? Here, monks, a monk rouses his will, makes an effort, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives to prevent..." DN.ii.313. (Shin Buddhists believe that in this 'last age of the Dharma' self-effort is no longer of value —as it was in the Buddha's day, so we can ignore his exhortations; one must rely on other power. Sound familiar?) Combine this position with the ever popular let's dispense with the jhanas / Samma Samadhi and some abhidharmikas certainly have a novel interpretation of the Noble 6-Fold Path. Ven Visuddhacara ("Attaining Jhana Before One Does Vipassana," just recommended reading on dsg) makes the Shin argument: "...conditions nowadays [are] not as conducive to the development of Samantha as in the old days..." a position he finds endorsed by Ven Nyanaponika. So it's okay to skip it. (BTW, as a lazy person with a very discursive mind I can tell you that the second argument is pure hokum. As for the first, we all know we have free choice (just how to explain it is a problem) otherwise the religious path would not exist. As the Buddha noted.) metta, stephen 18528 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Reminder (was, My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long)) Hi, All Just in case anyone is in any doubt about this(!), we ask everyone to refrain from quoting non-Theravadin texts, please (a passing reference is OK, but nothing more). Thanks. Jon -------------------------------------- From: "phamdluan2000 " Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 1:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Dear Stephen, ... KKT: Since you mention the sword of Manjusri and your perplexity about the dualism, I cannot resist to quote something from a Mahayana Sutra. You will see that in this Sutra Manjusri tries to kill the Buddha with his sword of Wisdom ! (O my God, such a lese-majesty! :-)) Hope that Sarah doesn't feel any objection (Hello Sarah :-)) Just some flavor of non-duality :-)) ... 18529 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Swee Boon, I would say that what is abandoned is the craving which binds us to samsara. Thus the mind is cool while the body is yet hot :) One interesting thing about the Magic Eye pictures is that you don't see both the lines and the 3D pictures at the same time, you either see one or the other. When the 3D pictures arises the lines are no longer seen as lines. Perhaps this is the same with the Arahant, when unbinding is realized, samsara is never seen the same? Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 8:14 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The Teaching On The Duality. > Hi Ray, > > > Nibbana is found in samsara. Enlightenment and delusion > > exist in the same place;lace, just as do hot and cold. It's hot > > where it was cold and cold where it was hot. When heat arises, > > the coolness disappears, and when there is coolness, there's no > > more heat. In this way nibbana and samsara are the same." > > So, does the arahant abandons both samsara and nibbana? > > Or, is the arahant both samsara and nibbana? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 18530 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 9:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) ---Dear Stephen, You write: """what is present is effort of will; it's conditioned all right, but it's not something that passively happens, it's something one actively does. "And, what, monks, is Right Effort? Here, monks, a monk rouses his will, makes an effort, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives to prevent..." DN.ii.313. Combine this position with the ever popular let's dispense with the jhanas / Samma Samadhi and some abhidharmikas certainly have a novel interpretation of the Noble 6-Fold Path. We all know we have free choice (just how to explain it is a problem) otherwise the religious path would not exist.""" And a little while back you wrote ""Abhidhamma recognizes both black and white kamma, and mixed, but what about the kamma that ends kamma? What is its classification?""" ___________ I'd like to look at these points in relation to the eightfold path. Apologies for repeating some points I've mentioned before. Certainly we can live very productive and happy lives with an idea of self and a belief in control and make much useful self-effort.. We can develop kusala and samatha and jhana of all levels; but not vipassana or the lokuttara jhanas. 1. "Black and white kamma": The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"ENDQUOTE It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala including the mundane jhanas. It is not saying to avoid kusala , simply that these are very much part of the causes of samsara. 2: "The kamma that ends kamma": The start of the next chapter is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on lokuttara (transcendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes. When we think of intention and choice and being able to control, this is thinking and it is not understanding the nature of cetana, intention, as a momentary phenomena -it cannot last even for a split second, nor can any feelings or consciousness. And the noble eightfactored path has no cetana as part of it. In the Nidanavagga (book of causation about Paticcasamuppada) the Buddha said in several suttas "Bhikkhus what one intends and what one plans and whatever one has a tendency towards this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness..when consciousness is established there is the production of renewed existence, birth, ageing, death, sorrow ... BUT bhikkhus when one does not intend, and one does not plan and one does not have a tendency toward anything no basis exists for consciousness...there is no production of renewed existence..no birth, ageing, death, sorrow,.."endquote see 576Bodhi We have much ignorance about dhammas, they have to be known in detail. But when we emphasise intention and self-effort the knowing will be tied up with craving - and then the links of the Paticcasamuppada are strenghtened. The path, so I believe, is simply the direct insight into the presently arising moment; the path is not trying to know or be something other than what is here right now. Is there effort when there is this special type of knowing? Yes, but is an effort that is very different from the effort associated with attachment. Is there concentration at these moments? Yes, there is ekaggata cetasika which focuses on whatever arises in the present moment. Can it arise right now? Sure, dhammas- the five khandhas - never stop arising. They are there to be insighted. Can it arise all the time? No, the conditions for ignorance, for wrong view, for wrong practice, for wrong path have been accumulated for aeons. The path is a very gardual one that takes much patience. But there are so many opportunties also for other types of kusala. Robertk 18531 From: azita gill Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) to Robert --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > Dear Group, > For the last few days I've been taking long treks in > the forest in > New Zealand. I was thinking over the ideas we have > about `situation' > and place and how different this is from > understanding the present > moment> [snip] > and it is wisdom – a conditioned phenomena – that > will come to know > what is best. > > > RobertK > > dear Robert, and just last evening I watched 'Lord of the Rings' movie 2, with those wonderful expansive vistas of NZ. The rest of the movie - well - too much killing. when I read your e.mail, I felt a little 'emotional' for just those very reasons. Knowing theoretically that anywhere, anytime is the right time to develop Sati and panna, but often thinking of my time spent with you and the others in Bkk, and wondering if I'll see you all again, and to hear the dhamma as we all sat around discussing various topics. But this is just attachment and aversion and these can be known right here, right now, don't have to go anywhere. as kenH. so beautifully stated in an earlier post, that he often can only write about nama and rupa [or something to that effect]. It's really all there is - just this citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away, whether we are in FNQ, NZ. or up on stage trying to work out why the words to 'Norma Jean' had been changed!!! Love yer spirit. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita > > > > 18532 From: Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 10:05pm Subject: middle ways Dear group, It seems to me there is a confusion of middle ways. The middle way between eternalism and nihilism is samsara, kamma, the round of births, dependent arising. This middle way is dukkha and nibbana is the cessation of this middle way. The middle way the Buddha advocated is middle way (not too extreme) asceticism and the 8-fold path was called the middle way is this regard. The life of an arahant is neither one of these middle ways. The 8-fold path has ceased and dependent arising will cease at death. We could say the heart of the 8-fold path is the perfection of wisdom, so the perfection of wisdom (analysis, as Suan said) is the quintessential middle way that leads to its own end by the disillusionment of desire which is what keeps the middle way of dependent arising and the middle way of analysis going. So enlightenment is middle waylessness. Comments? Larry 18533 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 4, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) to Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, azita gill wrote: > and just last evening I watched 'Lord of the > Rings' movie 2, with those wonderful expansive vistas > of NZ. ___________ Dear Azita, I must have a look at it soon. ____ > when I read your e.mail, I felt a little > 'emotional' for just those very reasons. Knowing > theoretically that anywhere, anytime is the right time > to develop Sati and panna, but often thinking of my > time spent with you and the others in Bkk, and > wondering if I'll see you all again, and to hear the > dhamma as we all sat around discussing various topics. > But this is just attachment and aversion and these > can be known right here, right now, don't have to go > anywhere. _________ So true and nicely put. ____________ > as kenH. so beautifully stated in an earlier > post, that he often can only write about nama and rupa > [or something to that effect]. It's really all there > is - just this citta, cetasika and rupa arising and > falling away, whether we are in FNQ, NZ. or up on > stage trying to work out why the words to 'Norma Jean' > had been changed!!! _________ For those who are wondering, Azita came for lunch and I asked the band to let me sing what I thought was Elton John's Norma Jean: don't say I don't entertain my guests!. I was trying to figure out why the words were so different until Azita explained that Elton rewrote the track in honor of Princess diana. I hope you were insighting sound, sound, sound Azita? Robertk > 18534 From: nidive Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 0:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Ray, I think the 4 Noble Truths is merely a view, a Right View. The duality of the 4 Noble Truths as taught by the Buddha in the quoted sutta is merely a view for worldlings and lower ariyans to cross over the floods. An arahant, having comprehended the 4 Noble Truths to their very end, no longer relishes the 4 Noble Truths. Having comprehended 'stress', the arahant has abandoned stress, samsara. Having comprehended 'the origination of stress', the arahant has abandoned the origination of stress. Having comprehended 'cessation of stress', the arahant has abandoned the cessation of stress, nibbana. (An arahant does not take delight in nibbana.) Having comprehended 'the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress', the arahant has abandoned that very path. In short, the arahant has abandoned the 4 Noble Truths. He no longer needs them. Since he has arrived at the other shore, the raft is no longer needed. He abandons that very raft which took him across the floods. For an arahant, both duality and non-duality do not apply. They are merely views. An arahant takes no views. Nevertheless, Duality accounts as Right View that will take one across the floods. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18535 From: nidive Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Howard, Christine and Others who are interested, Upon re-reading and re-pondering over the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, I *think* I have misinterpreted it in my reply to Howard on this sutta. Here is my *current* interpretation: > But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually > is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to > the world does not occur to one. "Origination of the world" refers to the arising of dukkha. > When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually > is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to > the world does not occur to one. "Cessation of the world" refers to the dissolution of dukkha. By the above two sentences, the Buddha was talking only on Samsara, and NOT both Samsara and Nibbana. For Samsara is the arising and dissolution of dukkha. But Nibbana is the cessation of both the arising and dissolution of dukkha. When one sees the arising of dukkha, the thought 'non-existence' does not occur. When one sees the dissolution of dukkha, the thought 'existence' does not occur. So, Howard is correct to say that Samsara is non-dual in this respect. This is Howard's Right View. (At least I *think* so. Howard, I hope that is what you meant in your post, not?) After explaining the non-dualism of Samsara in this respect, the Buddha went on to teach Kaccayana the Dhamma via the middle. > "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't > exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, > the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: After expounding to Kaccayana the First and Second Noble Truths, which is Samsara and seeing Samsara without Dualism (without the Two Extremes), he expounded to Kaccayana the Third and Fourth Noble Truths, which is the 'Cessation of Both the Arising and Dissolution of Dukkha' ( Nibbana) and the 'Path Leading to that Very Cessation'. Wherefore, at the end of this discourse, the Buddha had expounded the 4 Noble Truths to Kaccayana. (That is what I think.) Therefore, my conclusion is that Samsara in and of itself is Non- Dual with respect to the Two Extremes. But Samsara and Nibbana taken together is a Duality. This Duality accounts for the completion of Right View. "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view." -- DN 22 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18536 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 4:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Howard, If we can forget about Buddhism for a moment, can I ask you, what is the simple, common-sense answer to the question, "what exists?" Does the past or the future exist? If your answer is no, then, presumably, only the present exists. What is the present? What is its duration? Unless you can put a period of duration to the present moment, you might suggest a `singularity' of some sort. Whatever your answer is, you have moved well away from the conventional, everyday view of existence. The everyday view of existence does not stand up to the simplest scrutiny; it relies on memories of the past, combined with expectations of the future -- nothing to do with the present moment at all. One answer that suggests itself is "nothing exists;" but the most common answer, even among philosophers, is a side-stepping of the issue -- "I think, therefore I am." (For heaven's sake, how unworthy.) So why do you object to my statement, `in reality, there are no courses of action?' A course of action implies act one, act two, act three; but at the time of act one, acts two and three are in the future -- not yet existent. At the time of act two, act one is in the past -- no longer existent. So when do all three or just two actions exist together? Never; a course of action is a mind-made concept. We don't need a Buddha to tell us this. To make matters worse, when does act one exist? At the middle of the action, its beginning is past history; its end of has never existed. What does exist? Thanks in advance, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > So, no decisions are ever made and no volition ever exercised? All > dhammas except cetana are "realities"? > > With metta, > Howard > 18537 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi, Swee Boon - There is a duality, a duality of knowing - knowing rightly and knowing under the sway of illusion. This duality is that of absence vs presence. The term 'the world', as I see it, certainly includes dukkha and its moment to moment arising and ceasing. Dukkha is characteristic of "the world". But more generally, the term 'the world' pertains to reality as it is misperceived due to avijja, graspiing, and aversion, namely it pertains to samsara, and it includes all conditioned dhammas seen as separate, self-existent entities. This sutta, as I see it, explains the nature of the misperception by the mass of humanity, with people generally clinging to the extremes of existence and nonexistence, sometimes one, sometimes the other, buffeted between the two. That is samsara. But seeing reality as it is, with the eyes of the middle way, with the direct apprehension of dependent origination, the world is gone and nibbana appears - the difference is the obliteration of the three poisons. With regard to "the world", Ajahn Chah writes the following in a Taste of Freedom (taken from ATI): **************************** " ... activities of happiness, unhappiness and so on are constantly arising because they are characteristics of the world. The Buddha was enlightened in the world, he contemplated the world. If he hadn't contemplated the world, if he hadn't seen the world, he couldn't have risen above it. The Buddha's Enlightenment was simply enlightenment of this very world. The world was still there: gain and loss, praise and criticism, fame and disrepute, happiness and unhappiness were still there. If there weren't these things there would be nothing to become enlightened to! What he knew was just the world, that which surrounds the hearts of people. If people follow these things, seeking praise and fame, gain and happiness, and trying to avoid their opposites, they sink under the weight of the world. Gain and loss, praise and criticism, fame and disrepute, happiness and unhappiness -- this is the world. The person who is lost in the world has no path of escape, the world overwhelms him. This world follows the Law of Dhamma so we call it worldly dhamma. He who lives within the worldly dhamma is called a worldly being. He lives surrounded by confusion. Therefore the Buddha taught us to develop the path. We can divide it up into morality, concentration and wisdom -- develop them to completion! This is the path of practice which destroys the world. Where is this world? It is just in the minds of beings infatuated with it! The action of clinging to praise, gain, fame, happiness and unhappiness is called "world." when it is there in the mind, then the world arises, the worldly being is born. The world is born because of desire. Desire is the birthplace of all worlds. To put an end to desire is to put an end to the world. *********************************** Another reference to "the world" is to be found in the marvelous Uraga Sutta from the Sutta Nipata (again taken from ATI). I particularly draw your attention to paragraphs 8 and 9: ************************************ Uraga Sutta: The Serpent > 1. Yo ve uppatita vineti kodha > visatam sappavisam va osadhehi > so bhikkhu jahati oraparam > urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > >> He who can curb his wrath >> as soon as it arises, >> as a timely antidote will check >> snake's venom that so quickly spreads, >> -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, >> just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > 2. Yo ragam udacchida asesam bhisapuppham va saroruham vigayha so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who entirely cuts off his lust > as entering a pond one uproots lotus plants, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 3. Yo tanham udacchida asesam saritam sighasaram visosayitva so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who entirely cuts off his craving > by drying up its fierce and rapid flow, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 4. Yo manam udabbadhi asesam nalasetum va sudubbalam mahogho so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who entirely blots out conceit > as the wind demolishes a fragile bamboo bridge, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 5. Yo najjhagama bhavesu saram vicinam puppham iva udumbaresu so bhikkhu jahati orapara urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who does not find core or substance > in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought > in fig trees that bear none, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 6. Yass'antarato na santi kopa itibhavabhavatañca vitivatto so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who bears no grudges in his heart, > transcending all this "thus" and "otherwise," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 7. Yassa vitakka vidhupitave ajjhattam suvikappita asesa so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who has burned out his evil thoughts, > entirely cut them off within his heart, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as the > serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 8. Yo naccasari na paccasari sabbam accagama imam papañcam so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, > entirely transcending the diffuseness of the world, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 9. Yo naccasari na paccasari sabbam vitatham idan'ti natva loke so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind > and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 10. Yo naccasari na paccasari sabbam vitatham idan'ti vitalobho so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, > greedless he knows: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 11. Yo naccasari na paccasari sabbam vitatham idan'ti vitarago so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, > lust-free he knows: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 12. Yo naccasari na paccasari sabbam vitatham idan'ti vitadoso so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, > hate-free he knows: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 13. Yo naccasari na paccasari sabbam vitatham idan'ti vitamoho so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, > delusion-free he knows: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 14. Yass'anusaya na santi keci mula akusala samuhatase so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who has no dormant tendencies whatever, > whose unwholesome roots have been expunged, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 15. Yassa darathaja na santi keci oram agamanaya paccayase so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > States born of anxiety he harbors none > which may condition his return to earth, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 16. Yassa vanathaja na santi keci vinibandhaya bhavaya hetukappa so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > States born of attachment he harbors none > which cause his bondage to existence, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. 17. Yo nivarane pahaya pañca anigho tinnakathamkatho visallo so bhikkhu jahati oraparam urago jinnam iva tacam puranam. > He who has the five hindrances discarded, > doubt-free and serene, and free of inner barbs, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. ======================= With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/5/03 4:41:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes:
> > >When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually > >is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to > >the world does not occur to one. > > "Cessation of the world" refers to the dissolution of dukkha. > > > By the above two sentences, the Buddha was talking only on Samsara, > and NOT both Samsara and Nibbana. For Samsara is the arising and > dissolution of dukkha. But Nibbana is the cessation of both the > arising and dissolution of dukkha. > > > When one sees the arising of dukkha, the thought 'non-existence' > does not occur. > When one sees the dissolution of dukkha, the thought 'existence' > does not occur. > > So, Howard is correct to say that Samsara is non-dual in this > respect. This is Howard's Right View. (At least I *think* so. > Howard, I hope that is what you meant in your post, not?) > > After explaining the non-dualism of Samsara in this respect, the > Buddha went on to teach Kaccayana the Dhamma via the middle. > > > >"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't > >exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, > >the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: > > After expounding to Kaccayana the First and Second Noble Truths, > which is Samsara and seeing Samsara without Dualism (without the Two > Extremes), he expounded to Kaccayana the Third and Fourth Noble > Truths, which is the 'Cessation of Both the Arising and Dissolution > of Dukkha' ( Nibbana) and the 'Path Leading to that Very Cessation'. > > Wherefore, at the end of this discourse, the Buddha had expounded > the 4 Noble Truths to Kaccayana. (That is what I think.) > > Therefore, my conclusion is that Samsara in and of itself is Non- > Dual with respect to the Two Extremes. > > But Samsara and Nibbana taken together is a Duality. This Duality > accounts for the completion of Right View. > > > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge > with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to > the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of > practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right > view." > -- DN 22 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18538 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/5/03 7:04:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > If we can forget about Buddhism for a moment, can I ask > you, what is the simple, common-sense answer to the > question, "what exists?" > > Does the past or the future exist? If your answer is no, > then, presumably, only the present exists. What is the > present? What is its duration? > > Unless you can put a period of duration to the present > moment, you might suggest a `singularity' of some sort. > Whatever your answer is, you have moved well away from > the conventional, everyday view of existence. > > The everyday view of existence does not stand up to the > simplest scrutiny; it relies on memories of the past, > combined with expectations of the future -- nothing to do > with the present moment at all. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I take no exception to the foregoing. --------------------------------------------------- > > One answer that suggests itself is "nothing exists;" but > the most common answer, even among philosophers, is a > side-stepping of the issue -- "I think, therefore I am." > (For heaven's sake, how unworthy.) > > So why do you object to my statement, `in reality, there > are no courses of action?' A course of action implies > act one, act two, act three; but at the time of act one, > acts two and three are in the future -- not yet existent. > At the time of act two, act one is in the past -- no > longer existent. So when do all three or just two > actions exist together? Never; a course of action is a > mind-made concept. We don't need a Buddha to tell us > this. > > To make matters worse, when does act one exist? At the > middle of the action, its beginning is past history; its > end of has never existed. What does exist? > > Thanks in advance, > Ken H > =============================== There is no self, no agent, who wills or acts. But there is willing and acting. Whatever happens indeed happens now. Willing is now. And then there are subsequent "nows". Inclinations and memories carry over. There *is* action over time in that sense. You ask why I take exception to your statement "in reality, there are no courses of action." The answer is that what I take exception to is the implication of powerlessness and hopelessness. It is all well and good to intellectually grasp that there is nothing but the present moment and that nothing is as it seems, but to not take conventional action because somebody says that such action is illusion is, unfortunately, to never escape from illusion, to never actually *see* the reality of things. We start where we are, in the midst of samsara - unenlightened, and an intellectual grasp of Buddhist theory is not a substitute for direct knowing. It is possible to take the no-control aspect of anatta to an extreme point, a point which destroys any possibility of liberation, of ever attaining direct knowing. I wrote: 'So, no decisions are ever made and no volition ever exercised? All dhammas except cetana are "realities"?' My point was that volition can and does get exercised, though there is no "one" who exercises it, and that cetana is a first-class cetasika, and not a stepchild to be ill treated. Someone, I think it may have been Jon or Robert, said that cetana is not a path factor. I don't dispute this. But without (useful) cetana being exercised, again and again, we needn't have any concerns about what are and are not path factors, because we will never get to see the path. Following the Buddha's training requires volition and right effort. The Buddha's training does not consist in waiting for kusula accumulations to somehow accumulate! The Buddha's training consists in more than studying his teachings and hoping for the best. With metta, Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Ken - > > > > So, no decisions are ever made and no volition ever > exercised? All > >dhammas except cetana are "realities"? > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18539 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 8:32am Subject: Back on line Hi All, Sorry for being away for so long. I was at home over the holidays and my wife insisted that I focus 100% on the family. She made me promise not to touch "my mistress" (that what she calls my notebook). Metta, Rob M :-) PS: When I do something wrong with "my mistress", she gives me a blue screen or an error message. When I do something wrong with my wife, she also gives me a "blue screen" or an "error message". However, it takes a lot longer to "reset the system" with my wife. 18540 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 8:56am Subject: New Class Notes On Line! Hi All, I have updated the Class Notes again. The new version can be downloaded from the "Files" section of the DSG. I added new material on ethically variable cetasikas and cleaned up a lot of areas. I distributed copies of this to my new class which started today. I welcome constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement! Metta, Rob M :-) 18541 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Way 34, Comm, Breathing "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, The Section on Breathing, p.46 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html And so the Blessed One, pointing out the forest abode, the fit place for speedy exertion in the practice of meditation, said "Gone to the forest", and so forth. Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim upatthapetva so satova assasati sato passasati = "Sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps is body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. Mindful he breathes in, and mindful he breathes out." "Bends in his legs crosswise on his lap." Three things pertaining to the sitting posture of the yogi are pointed out by that: firmness of the posture; easefulness of breathing due to the posture; and the expediency of the posture for laying hold of the subject of meditation. One sits in this posture having locked in the legs. It is the entirely thigh-bound sitting posture, and is known as the lotus, and the immovable posture too. "Keeps his body erect." Keeps the vertebrae in such a position that every segment of the backbone is said to be placed upright, and end to end throughout. The body, waist upwards, is held straight. "Arouses mindfulness in front." Fixes the attention by directing it towards the breath which is in front. "Mindful he breathes in and mindful he breathes out." Breathes in and out without abandoning mindfulness. Digham va assasanto digham assasamiti pajanati digham va passasanto digham passasamiti pajanati: = "He, thinking, 'I breathe in long,' understands when he is breathing in long; or thinking, 'I breathe out long,' he understands when he is breathing out long. "When breathing in long, how does he understand, 'I breathe in long.'? When breathing out long, how does he understand 'I breathe out long'? He breathes in a long breath during a long stretch of time, he breathes out a long breath during a long stretch of time, and he breathes in and he breathes out long breaths, each during a long stretch of time. As he breathes in and breathes out long breaths, each during a long stretch of time, desire [or intention; chanda] arises in him. With desire he breathes in a long breath finer than the last during a long stretch of time; with desire he breathes out a long breath finer than the last during a long stretch of time; and with desire he breathes in and he breathes out long breaths finer than the last, each during a long stretch of time. As with desire he breathes in and he breathes out long breaths finer than the last, each during a long stretch of time, joy [piti] arises in him. With joy he breathes in a long breath finer than the last during a long stretch of time; with joy he breathes out a long breath finer than the last during a long stretch of time; and with joy he breathes in and he breathes out long breaths finer than the last, each during a long stretch of time. As with joy he breathes in and he breathes out long breaths finer than the last, each during a long stretch of time, the mind turns away from the long in-and-out-breathings, and equanimity [upekkha] stands firm. 18542 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hello Robert, >Certainly we can live very productive and happy lives with an idea >of self and a belief in control and make much useful self-effort.. >We can develop kusala and samatha and jhana of all levels; but not >vipassana or the lokuttara jhanas. That's a straw man argument; I never mentioned self-effort, though you snuck it in your post twice. What's there is (names aren't that important) is intention or cetana or will or effort. It's conditioned, primarily by previous choices (cetana) that are largely responsible for making us what we are (character). This intention is free: = controlled without a controller, because it's not determined (contra-causal causality as it's called in philosophy). This is merely another way of saying that we're not automatons or marionettes. It's another way of saying that the religious life is possible. There is free action but no Self or substantial agent that exists through time exercising this choice or owning it. (The freewill problem didn't exist for the Buddha because he wasn't a dualist: he did not have to reconcile inner free choice with external causes.) >"He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the >ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. Because >it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this >is jhana called going out... This is a redefinition of jhana and does not correspond to the suttas. It may well be a useful and valid novel use but it can't be used as an excuse to avoid samma samadhi. (Someone(s) have systematically gone through the suttas putting in standard formulas for jhana and the hindrances. This isn't too harmful. When we come to the abhidhamma since there were 5 hindrances they decided to have 5 levels of jhana. Neato. By this point not only did these systematizers and copyist have no experiences to get in the way of their catalogs they're were no longer even interested in having any; truth had ceased to be a hindrance to them.) >When we think of intention and choice and being able to control, >this is thinking and it is not understanding the nature of cetana, >intention, as a momentary phenomena -it cannot last even for a split >second, nor can any feelings or consciousness. If this is part of the theory that mental events happen 'faster than the speed of light' and all that it has no more merit than flat earth cosmology. It's *known* to be wrong. (The Catholic Church has a long history of being at odds with science, much to their embarrassment and loss.) >We have much ignorance about dhammas, they have to be known in >detail. But when we emphasize intention and self-effort the knowing >will be tied up with craving - and then the links of the >Paticcasamuppada are strengthened. There's a very tricky point here, and, despite all the above, it's where we actually may have some agreement; at least discussion. It is indeed the self-effort of getting and becoming which ties us to samsara, the bhavacakka. One is liberated who abandons craving. Now: how does one accomplish that? It's like doing nothing, or attaining not-attaining. Wu-wei (spelling?) is the Taoist notion of not-doing. But it doesn't mean doing nothing, it means no Self-doing, no selfish getting and becoming; becoming one with the grain of the universe. Effortless effort. No action from separateness, which leads to attachment. Very paradoxical to try to describe. In the seeing, just seeing (no seer and nothing seen), in the doing, just doing (no doer and nothing done). Viriya as 'effort'; perhaps not quite right. We know what it can feel like, following an inner motivation that is effortless (unlike returning to work tomorrow! —a chore), following our natural being; nothing compulsive. Pursuing our highest good. So efforts to improve, to develop (as the Buddha exhorted, relinquish akusala, adopt kusala) need not be something a self does, but something the universe does. metta, stephen (I'll read any reply you send with interest but will sadly be very busy this coming week; so you *may* have the last word.) 18543 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 34, Comm, Breathing Way 34: As he breathes in and breathes out long breaths, each during a long stretch of time, desire [or intention; chanda] arises in him. With desire he breathes in a long breath finer than the last during a long stretch of time; with desire he breathes out a long breath finer than the last during a long stretch of time... L: Hi all, Ven. ~Nanamoli has an interesting note on this in Visuddhimagga,VIII, par.168, n.46. He translates "chanda" as "zeal": '"Zeal arises": additional zeal, which is profitable and has the characteristic of desire to act, arises due to the satisfaction obtained when the meditation has brought progressive improvement. "More subtle than before": more subtle than before the already-described zeal arose; for the breaths occur more subtly owing to the meditation's influence in tranquilizing the body's distress and disturbance, "Gladness arises": fresh happiness arises of the kinds classed as 'minor', etc., which is the gladness that accompanies the consciousness occupied with the meditation and is due to the fact that the peacefulness of the object increases with the growing subtlety of the breaths and to the fact that the meditation subject keeps to it course. "The mind turns away": the mind turns away from the breaths, which have reached the point at which the manifestation needs investigating owing to their gradually increasing subtlety. But some say "It is when the in-breaths and out-breaths have reached a subtler state owing to the influence of the meditation and the counterpart sign; for when that has arisen, the mind turns away from the normal breaths". "Equanimity is established": when concentration, classed as access and absorption, has arisen in that counterpart sign, then, since there is no need for further interest to achieve jhana, on-looking (equanimity) ensues, which is specific neutrality.' (Pm. 260) 18544 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 34, Comm, Breathing ~Nanamoli note 46: "The mind turns away": the mind turns away from the breaths, which have reached the point at which the manifestation needs investigating owing to their gradually increasing subtlety. Hi all, I made a typo here and there's a note to see the following paragraph, #177: "The mind turns away": the mind turns away from the breaths, which have reached the point at which THEIR manifestation needs investigating owing to their gradually increasing subtlety. 177: Suppose a man stands still after running, or descending from a hill, or putting down a big load from his head, then his in-breaths and out-breaths are gross, his nostrils become inadequate, and he keeps on breathing in and out through his mouth. But when he has rid himself of his fatigue and has bathed and drunk and put a wet cloth on his heart, and is lying in the cool shade, then his in-breaths and out-breaths eventually occur so subtly that he has to investigate whether they exist or not; so too, previously, at the time when the bhikkhu has still not discerned,... he has to investigate whether they exist or not. 18545 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 8:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back on line Hi Rob M, --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi All, > > Sorry for being away for so long. I was at home over the holidays > and my wife insisted that I focus 100% on the family. She made me > promise not to touch "my mistress" (that what she calls my notebook). .... ;-) Good to see you back and I fully sympathise with neglected wives/partners/family. As well as thanking all the contributors on DSG, we should also be thanking the patient and kind family members who help make this possible. Perhaps you can select a few (plain English) posts each week to print out and read with them to encourage their interest as well. Even my mother became quite interested in this way when I was last with her. Some of James' ones to the kids in Useful Posts would be a good start perhaps. ..... > PS: When I do something wrong with "my mistress", she gives me a > blue screen or an error message. When I do something wrong with my > wife, she also gives me a "blue screen" or an "error message". > However, it takes a lot longer to "reset the system" with my wife. .... ;-) As a wife, I understand. Keeping the family happy should be No.1 priority. We'll chat later. Happy New Year to you and your family and all your students;-) Sarah ====== 18546 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Sarah and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob M & All, > > You discuss the value and authenticity of commentarial material and in > particular, the value of details in the Abhidammattha Sangaha which are > not found in the Tipitaka. This is my post that you were commenting on: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13761.html Your post happened just after I went off-line. I did not intend to question the value of the commentaries nor the value of the Abhidhammattha Sangha. However, I feel it is important to see them "as they truly are" and recognize the potential for papanca that arises (I explain at the end of this post what I mean by papanca in this context). Even the "traditional view" recognizes that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was not the word of the Buddha. In the "traditional view", the Buddha delivered the Abhidhamma to an assembly of Devas for three solid months during the seventh vassa (rainy season retreat) after His enlightenment. Each day, the Buddha would come to earth to eat and pass along to Sariputta, "This much has been covered thus far...". Sariputta, being incredibly smart, filled in the details to the "table of contents" provided by the Buddha and passed the Abhidhamma to his 500 students (this was eventually written down as the Abhidhamma Pitaka). In other words, there are three versions of the Abhidhamma: - The long version (delivered by the Buddha to the Devas) - The short version (passed by the Buddha to Sariputta) - The medium version (passed by Sariputta to his disciples and to us) Of course, one could argue that the Buddha was around for 38 years after Sariputta passed the Abhidhamma to his students so the Buddha must have known what was said and had an opportunity to correct any errors. In any case, I see great value in both the Pitaka and the commentaries (including the Abhidhammattha Sangha). It is clear that they were written by people who were much smarter than I am. Allow me to explain what prompted my original message. I was in Mumbai, India, riding in the back seat of a car. I was thinking about the abstract discussion that I was having at the time with Howard regarding rupas and phenomenology. There was pleasant feeling as I recalled Howard's points and started crafting a reply in my head. I was smiling to myself. I was looking out the window of the car with this pleasant feeling and suddenly I focused on the objects in front of me. Scenes of incredible poverty. In the past fifteen years, I have made more than 100 trips to India, so it was nothing that I had not seen dozens of times before. This time it really struck me because of the contrast between my pleasant feeling and the poverty without dignity that I was witnessing. I asked myself why I was so disconnected with the present moment and I realized that I had fallen into a trap of "analysis paralysis"; I was caught up in the intellectual aspects of the Abhidhamma so much that I forgot the purpose of the Abhidhamma. Sarah, I seem to recall you mentioning that Khun Sujin had also warned against getting caught up in the theory and losing perspective on the present moment. I observed that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was already quite theoretical and abstract and noticed that the commentaries and subcommentaries seemed to be moving in a direction toward increasing theory (i.e. more specific details of the citta-process, etc.) rather than closer to the practical application of awareness of the present moment. I concluded my original message with a conclusion that I would continue to teach all the theory (including the stuff from the commentaries and subcommentaries), but I will constantly remind the students of why we are studying this stuff. This is part of my effort to minimize pananca. By papanca, I meant becoming wrapped up in the theory and losing sight of the practical. Looking back on my original message, this theme was not very clearly expressed. I apologize. Metta, Rob M :-) 18547 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 11:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hello again Howard, Thanks for answering my questions, looking at them again, I can see that they might be a bit too `back to basics.' You wrote: ---------- > what I take exception to is the implication of powerlessness and hopelessness. > ----------- No such implication was intended. The Middle Path is not a contortion of the two extremes (an action you take when you're not taking an action). The Middle Path is, first and foremost, right understanding. It's wonderful, not in the least bit `powerlessness and hopelessness.' You continued: --------- > It is all well and good to intellectually grasp that there is nothing but the present moment and that nothing is as it seems, but to not take conventional action because somebody says that such action is illusion is, unfortunately, to never escape from illusion, > . . . --------- "because somebody says that such action is illusion"(?) Are you less than convinced that conventional reality is illusion? That would make it very hard to see that no one `takes conventional action.' There is the illusion of a self taking action but there is no conventional action. Whether we want to or not, we can't do or be something that is illusory. Sorry if I've got you wrong, it's hard enough to gather my own thoughts on realities and concepts, let alone see what someone else is thinking. Kind regards Ken H 18548 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) Hi Peter, I found all your additional comments that you wrote to Claire very interesting (I hadn’t read these last time I wrote). I agree with your comments about the ‘highly evolved society’ at that time in India. Everything seems to suggest this. Your comments about the lack of reference to the bhikkhunis at the time of the Buddha’s Parinibbana or the First Council are interesting. I don’t think there is any chance that A.Brom’s comment that the order might have died out can be correct. Certainly there would have been reference to this at the time, when the Vinaya was being rehearsed or later. As you say, it is also inconsistent with the details given about Sanghamitta, Asoka’s daughter coming to Sri Lanka. She was an arahant and came with a group of nuns who were all enlightened (arahants probably?) too. I believe their numbers were relatively small compared to those of the monks and there was no special reason for particular mention. The leading disciples and those responsible for the First Council activities were all bhikkhus. Your other speculations about ‘times of crisis or emergency, e.g. war etc...’ may also be correct. These would not be times when the bhikkhuni issues would be predominant. You mentioned that all you did for your article was largely to use the details in DoPPN. Still, I think this was an admirable way to go about it - at least it ensures the facts are correct and none of your notes were misleading. ***** The reason I raised some of the ‘depth of anguish’ comments in one or two of your later posts is because I think the idea of needing to really suffer, or be taught by ‘Ajahn Dukkha’ as you put it well, is very common. I also read this in the article on samvega (sense of urgency) that Christine gave the link for and which we discussed under that heading. You mention in your more recent post (in the context of the Bodhisatta’s leaving his family and household/princely life): P:“This works because frustration, anguish, despair, etc. re-emerge and drive us onward, ever deeper into the investigation of the Buddha's Dhamma and Vinaya.” ..... I think there’s a difference between (a) understanding with panna (wisdom) whatever phenomena appear, including kilesa (defilements) such as anguish, despair and fear and (b)seeing these kilesa as being the driving force or sense or urgency that lead to wisdom developing. In the Bhayabherava Sutta (Fear and Dread), MN4 which the extracts we were looking at were taken from, we read through all the unwholesome states that other recluses experience in the forest. Iinstead of these, the Bodhisatta has wholesome ones - from ‘purified in bodily conduct’ through to ‘wisdom’.This is followed by the part about the special moon nights and experience of fear and dread as you rightly pointed out. In the Bodhisatta’s case these are known and ‘subdued’ immediately. “Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.” He then goes on to expereince the jhanas, recollection of past lives and full enlightenment. ***** So of course there are conditions for all kilesa to arise for us as mere wordlings and we never know what our accumulations will bring at any moment. Any conditioned phenomena have to be known with detachment. This is the only way the path can develop. Understanding the unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned phenomena is different, I think, from having any idea that experiencing deep anguish and so on are necessary constituents or factors of the path. Surely it is the wisdom which develops in spite of the kilesa, rather than the reverse, that leads us to hear, consider and reflect further. In the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka (Treatise on the Paramis in B.Bodhi’s Brahmajala Sutta anc commentaries p272f) we read about the perfection of equanimity, the last perfection attained by the Bodhisatta: “When there is no equanimity, the offensive actions performed by beings cause oscillation in the mind. And when the mind oscillates, it is impossible to practise the requisites of enlightenment..... “Moreover, the undertaking, determination, fulfilment, and completion of all the requisites of enlightenment succeed through the power of equanimity.... “Equanimity perfects the power of renunciation, for by its means he overcomes discontent and delight... “And because he is unconcerned over the wrongs done by others, he perfects the abiding in loving-kindness. Thus equanimity is indispensable to the practice of all the other paramis.” ***** In his very last life as a Bodhisatta before the present one in which he became enlightened, as Vessantara, the parami of equanimity was perfected. We read the account of how he joyfully gave away his children to a Brahmin. They were treated very harshly, ran back to Vessantara and appealed for help. Vassantara remained silent and let the Brahmin drive them away again. Vessantara was temporarily grieved, ‘his heart grew hot within him: he trembled violently...tears streaming from his eyes, he wept pitifully’ on account of how his children were being treated. However, he reflected on the pain that comes from affection and ‘by power of his knowledge he did away with that keen pang of sorrow’. I can hardly bear to read the details of the children’s afflictions or the account of Maddi, their mother wandering around looking for them before collapsing before hearing the truth and also being able to rejoice in the great act. Later she also agrees to be given away herself, confident that Vassantara knew what was necessary. He gives her away willingly too. Sakka (who had been disguised as the brahmin asking for Maddi) refers to her noble qualities, she is returned to Vessantara. As we know, eventually the children as well as Maddi and Vessantara return to Sivi and Vassantara becomes king. Maddi was of course Yasodara in this lifetime and so both she and the Bodhisatta had already given away their children and each other in far harsher circumstances.As there is so little mention about Yasodara (Rahula's mother)when the Bodhisatta left the palace, I think we just have to accept that we don't know whether she grieved or rejoiced when she found he had left or whether she knew he would be leaving. In the Vassantara Jataka, Maddi seems to have a very keen understanding of his path and what was necessary, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any grief;-) ..... I’ve rather lost my thread, revisiting the Jataka to check one or two points(always with a few tears;-)). I think my point was that the Bodhisatta had to have a lot of highly eveloped self-knowledge. The paramis can only be developed with wisdom. I bleieve that one of the conditions or qualifications for being a Bodhisatta is that in the lifetime the vow is made, he has to be capable of being enlightened in that same lifetime. The paramis are developed on top of this already high level of knowledge. ..... One last comment I’d like to refer to briefly only. You said: P:“Meditation would seem to come quite easy to many children if approached in a skillful way. Any good Buddhist temple will have Sunday school lessons for children age from say six to twelve or so. The one in Wimbledon, Wat Buddhapadipa, has a very enthusiastic attendance. My own secular experience at around that age: I'd find myself just sat down, (in a bus of all places), when the most amazing feeling of a bliss-like-tranquillity would suddenly and unexpectedly well up, this happened on a couple of occasions around that time. I can still recollect the feeling after all this time.” ***** This is a delicate subject. It’s very tempting, I think, to consider such special experiences as being something akin to jhana. I think that only by understanding more about what tranquillity is, how it is conditioned and the understanding there must be of wholesome and unwholesome states, can we answer this question. I believe that the wisdom required and difficulty of jhana is often underestimated. Finally, from the descriptive vs prescriptive thread, I particularly like your phrase: “Honesty of heart or gut so often turns out to be an expression of wrong view.” I think this is very right, unfortunately;-) Peter, you mentioned before about your difficulties in writing. May I just say that we would never have known and appreciate all your efforts in this regard. Sarah ====== 18549 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Teaching On The Duality. Hi Stephen, I’m not meaning to be ‘tricky’, but I’m genuinely interested to know if you don’t see any conflict in your following comments extracted from two recent posts: --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > Do we agree that subject / object is a dualism? Me / I in here, the > world out > there. > Do we agree that anatta means no self? No me / I in here (in the > khandhas). > So there isn't *this* duality? > > What would experience be like without a subject? ***** Vs ***** Stephen:>You can attach to it and make dukkha, or > not. ..... Sarah: you can??? .... Stephen:> I sez. If one can't even hold concentration to count to 10 how can they > possibly pretend to do vipassana? ..... Sarah: Who wants to ‘do’ vipassana and why? ..... Stephen:> Yes, well what is present is effort of will; it's conditioned all right, > but > it's not something that passively happens, it's something one actively > does. ..... Sarah: One actively does?? ..... > we all know we have > free > choice ..... Sarah: We do? ..... Apologies for taking comments out of context just this once;-) Sarah ===== 18550 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] B. Bodhi Hi Dotl, --- dotl wrote: > Thankyou Sarah for news of B. Bhodi- We were wondering how he is these > days, > at our meeting on Saturday. > dotl ..... I think I can say he's very happy to be settled back at Bodhi monastery and mentioned seeing the snow for the first time in over 20 years;-) He's also spent time with his father. He continues to have headache problems, but I believe he's had good diagnostic advice (from Dr Ma and a doctor in Shanghai) and the treatment is beginning to show marked improvement with other related conditions at least. It's a long-standing condition (i.e no quick solution) but he's used to having to be very patient. Why don't you tell us more about your group and interest in dhamma too?? Does your group study B.Bodhi's writings or translations? Best regards, Sarah ====== 18551 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Swee Boon, Sorry to be rather slow in replying..... --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > S: the form is incapable of arising in future. The wisdom and > > liberation from samsara of the Tathagata is `deep...'. like the > > fire, `reappears' amd `does not reppear' are inapplicable. > SB> The sutta says the Tathagata is 'deep...', but it didn't say the > wisdom and libration from samsara of the Tathagata is 'deep...'. > > ??? ..... In your great long post (18509), I think this was the only point I queeried. I think the question is, when we read “The Tathagata is ‘deep’ ...” is it referring to the present state or the future Parinibbana of the Tathagata? I read it to be referring to the present, but I may be wrong. As we know, ‘Tathagata” is merely used for conventional convenience to refer to the 5 aggregates of what we take for the Buddha. I understand the ‘deep...’ (BB transl: “profound, immeasurable, unfathomable”) to refer to the extent of the wisdom and total liberation as I mentioned, but I can’t be sure. I just looked to see if BB gives any commentary note, but he doesn’t. he does add this note of his own which I’ll type in full for your interest (note 723 to MN72,Aggivacchagotta Sutta): “This passage should be connected with teh simile of the extinguished fire. Just as the extinguished fire cannot be described as having gone to any direction, so the Tathagata who has attained to final Nibbana cannot be described in terms of the four alternatives. The simile concerns solely the legitamacy of conceptual and linguistic usage and is not intended to suggest, as some scholars have held, that the Tathagata attains to some mystical absorption in the Absolute. The words “profound, immeasurable, unfathomable” point to the transcendental dimension of the liberation attained by the Accomplished One, its inaccessibility to discursive thought.” ..... Earlier in the text we also read about the Dhamma that it is also “profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise”. This seems to compliment the comments about the Tathagata. Somewhere in the Visuddhimagga it says that if anyone tries to comprehend the knowledge and omniscience of the Buddha they’ll go mad (very rough paraphrase). ..... > > Commentary (given by BB): " `does not reappear' actually does > > apply, in the sense that the arahant does not undergo a new > > existence. but if Vaccagotta were to hear this he would > > misapprehend it as annihilationism, and thus the Buddha denies > > that it applies in the sense that annihilation is not a tenable > > position." > > That is one reason. > > But I think there is another reason that will at the same time > include the above reason. > > Repudiating the four 'ultimate realities' of rupa, citta, cetasika > and nibbana, can you describe another 'ultimate reality'? ..... Another way to say the same is that if there are no more conditions for rupa, citta, cetasika (the 5 khandhas) to arise, there can no longer be any reappearing or experience of conditioned or unconditioned realities. ..... > It is impossible, because that 'something' lies beyond range of what > can be known or can be comprehended. ..... I would just say that ‘appear’ and ‘reappear’ no longer apply....otherwise someone may continue to cling to an idea of ‘something’. I believe the cannot be comprehended’ relates to the parinibbana itself - the extinguishing of the flame. In brief, as in the other suttas you, Rob K and Christine have mentioned, the reason for the response is to help rid any ideas of self-view on the part of the questioner. ..... “But, friend, one who knows and sees form..feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciousness s it really is, who knows and sees its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, does not think: “The Tathagata exists after death’...or ‘The Tathagata neither exists or does not exist after death’. “This, friend,is the cause and reason why this has not been declared by the Blessed One.”(SN,1V,Salayatanavagga, 4 Sariputta and Kotthita) .... I find all your comments very well considered, Swee Boon. I’m interested to know whether you have had guidance or whether it has just come about by your own reflections and considerations and whether you’ve just relied on translations of suttas or whether you’ve had access to commentaries. (You don’t need to answer any of this if you’d prefer not to.) In any case, I greatly appreciate it and I’m also impressed that you’re happy to come back and ‘correct’ your own comments when you consider further. Sarah p.s I’m also not in the ‘giant amoeba’ camp as I understand it;-) ===== 18552 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi, Rob - In a message dated 1/6/03 1:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > I was in Mumbai, India, riding in the back seat of a car. I was > thinking about the abstract discussion that I was having at the time > with Howard regarding rupas and phenomenology. There was pleasant > feeling as I recalled Howard's points and started crafting a reply > in my head. I was smiling to myself. I was looking out the window of > the car with this pleasant feeling and suddenly I focused on the > objects in front of me. Scenes of incredible poverty. In the past > fifteen years, I have made more than 100 trips to India, so it was > nothing that I had not seen dozens of times before. This time it > really struck me because of the contrast between my pleasant feeling > and the poverty without dignity that I was witnessing. > > I asked myself why I was so disconnected with the present moment and > I realized that I had fallen into a trap of "analysis paralysis"; I > was caught up in the intellectual aspects of the Abhidhamma so much > that I forgot the purpose of the Abhidhamma. > > ========================= I'm sorry if I had a hand, even by "thought proxy" in any analysis paralysis that momentarily separated you from compassion. Fortunately, your good heart prevailed. From my perspective, wisdom and compassion are twins that are joined, not at the hip, but at the head and the heart, and cannot safely or properly be separated. (If they were to be separated, and only one could be saved, I'd save the compassion!) Just one more point: The intellectual analysis that we engage in, by individual thought and through our conversations, while often useful, doesn't always foster wisdom; it has the capacity to generate, I have no doubt, plenty of murkiness along with light. Intellectual analysis, while often supportive of the practice, is not the practice, and it is not a substitute for the enlightenment factor of investigation (dhammavicaya), which, as I see it, goes hand in hand with direct application of sati and sampaja~n~na to what actually arises from moment to moment. Investigation in the Dhammic sense will never run counter to the development of compassion in my opinion, though cold, dry intellectual examination may . With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18553 From: Date: Sun Jan 5, 2003 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi, Ken - There is acting, but no actor. And there is willing but no one who wills. So, literally, "we" cannot engage in right effort - yet right effort must be engaged in. And "we" cannot repeatedly engage in meditation - yet regular cultivation must be done. It is true that "we" cannot engage in courses of action - yet courses of action must be pursued. When we reach the stage that wisdom has fully blossomed, we will know the truth of anatta, and we will act with perfection, automatically. But we are not at that stage. We "live in" a world of convention, and we act in that world. Artificially pretending to ourselves that we really see anatta - insubstantiality and impersonality, and letting our *ideas* of the way things are stop us from taking conventional action because we *intellectually* grasp that there really is no one who acts and there are really no actions at all, but just an "uncontrollable" flow of conditioned dhammas, is disastrous. Much as we would wish it otherwise, we do not start at nibbana. We start right in the midst of samsara, right in the midst of this world of illusion, and "here" WE must ACT. The ultimate fact that such acting is a mere seeming, mere illusion, does not dictate inaction. The nonexistent "self" must engage in "unreal actions". The Buddha spoke of people, and actions, and he taught people to engage in various actions, actions which lead people out of illusion. He taught this using conventional speech to people like you and me, ensnared in illusion. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. I hope this clarifies my position. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/6/03 2:05:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hello again Howard, > > Thanks for answering my questions, looking at them again, > I can see that they might be a bit too `back to basics.' > > You wrote: > ---------- > >what I take exception to is the implication of > powerlessness and hopelessness. > > ----------- > No such implication was intended. The Middle Path is not > a contortion of the two extremes (an action you take when > you're not taking an action). The Middle Path is, first > and foremost, right understanding. It's wonderful, not > in the least bit `powerlessness and hopelessness.' > > You continued: > --------- > >It is all well and good to intellectually grasp that > there is nothing but the present moment and that nothing > is as it seems, but to not take conventional action > because somebody says that such action is illusion is, > unfortunately, to never escape from illusion, >. . . > --------- > > "because somebody says that such action is illusion"(?) > Are you less than convinced that conventional reality is > illusion? That would make it very hard to see that no > one `takes conventional action.' There is the illusion > of a self taking action but there is no conventional > action. Whether we want to or not, we can't do or be > something that is illusory. > > Sorry if I've got you wrong, it's hard enough to gather > my own thoughts on realities and concepts, let alone see > what someone else is thinking. > > Kind regards > Ken H > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18554 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) Correction: --- Sarah wrote: > ***** > In his very last life as a Bodhisatta before the present one in which he > became enlightened, as Vessantara, the parami of equanimity was > perfected. .... This is clearly nonsense. It’s the last Jataka tale given but obviously not the last life which was in a heavenly realm. Also it is the parami of dana that is perfected on reflection. Apologies. I believe the Bodhisatta’s last several lives were in heavenly realms. Does anyone know where there is a list showing the order? I’ve also heard/read that the Vessantara Jataka is the first to disappear from the teachings which I found interesting - the hardest for people to accept. Sarah p.s any other corrections welcome;-) ===== 18555 From: nidive Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 7:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Sarah, > I think the question is, when we read "The Tathagata > is `deep' ..." is it referring to the present state or > the future Parinibbana of the Tathagata? It refers to the parinibbana of the Tathagata. I think it is very clear that the intention of Vaccha in asking whether "the Tathagata `reappears' or not" refers to the death of the Tathagata. If the Tathagata was alive, the Tathagata `appears' (right before the eyes of Vaccha). If the Tathagata was dead, does the Tathagata `reappear'? This was the intention of Vaccha's question. > Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, > tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, > to-be-experienced by the wise. This statement refers to nibbana. Nibbana is the unconditioned phenomenon. > "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the > Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its > root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the > conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. The Tathagata, having realized the unconditioned phenomenon, nibbana, has uprooted the roots for future arising. This refers to the Tathagata alive. > Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, > boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. > 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' > doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't > apply. The Tathagata can only be freed from the classification of form at death, parinibbana. While alive, the Tathagata is not yet freed from form (though he has uprooted the roots by which form arises). The five aggregates still remain in existence. FREED (note past tense) from the classification of the five aggregates, there is no longer wisdom. FREED (note past tense) from the classification of the five aggregates, there is no longer any more liberation from samsara. Once FREED (parinibbana), the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea (note that this is a different description by the Buddha than the one given for nibbana earlier in the sutta). Which means that any way by which we `point' to the Tathagata, that `pointing' doesn't apply. And, IMHO, the Tathagata, though freed from the classification of the five aggregates, is not nibbana. We cannot `point' to the Tathagata as nibbana. Nibbana itself is a phenomenon, the unconditioned phenomenon. Whereas the Tathagata, freed, is no longer any phenomenon. The Tathagata, freed, is non-phenomenon, for a lack of a better word. > I'm interested to know whether you have had guidance or whether > it has just come about by your own reflections and considerations My own reflections and considerations. > and whether you've just relied on translations of suttas or whether > you've had access to commentaries. Mostly translations of suttas. No access to commentaries. Reads ADL and ATI. > I'm also impressed that you're happy to come back and `correct' your > own comments when you consider further. I think it is only proper to correct my mistakes. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18556 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 10:16am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 10 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 10 King Bimbisåra who was a sotåpanna thought, ³Nothing else is more precious than the Triple Gem². Therefore he asked the merchants who were citizens of Takkasilå, ³Are the three Jewels of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha known in your country?² The merchants from Takkasila said, ³In our country one has never heard of them. Where could they be seen?² That was the reason that King Bimbisåra gave the order to make a sheet of gold of four cubits long, a span in breadth and a thickness which was just right: not too thin, not too thick. He washed his head in the early morning, he observed the Uposatha (vigil day), took breakfast and then he had insciptions ciseled out on the sheet of gold. He had inscriptions made relating the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of the ten perfections, the excellent qualities of the Dhamma, the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment, the four satipaììhånas, the eightfold Path, the excellent qualities of the Sangha and Mindfulness of Breathing. The excellent qualities of the Sangha at that time were the qualities of the ariyans who were contented with the four requisites [9 , who could subdue the hindrances, attain jhåna, acquire supranatural powers, and become ³great men² (mahåpurisa [10). King Bimbisåra considered that he would have a present made superior to anything else: the excellent qualities of the Triple Gem which he had inscribed on the golden sheet. He then wrote as follows: ³The teachings of the Lord Buddha are well spoken, they liberate beings from dukkha. If you, my friend, can really grasp this, may you then enter monkhood!² The King had wrapped around the golden sheet a blanket of animal hair of a delicate texture and had it placed into a strong box. This box was placed into another box of gold, and this golden box into a silver box, and each box was successively placed into another precious box: made of silver, pearl, coral, ruby, emerald, crystal, ivory, of all kinds of gems, and then placed into a box made of a bamboo matting. This he had placed into a strong container, this again into a golden container, and then successively into other containers, in the same way as before in the case of the boxes. The container made of all kinds of gems he had placed in a container made of bamboo matting, and this in a container of hardwood. Thus each container was placed in another one in the same way. The box made of all kinds of gems which was placed in a box of bamboo matting was wrapped around with cloth and stamped with the royal seal. The King gave orders to the courtiers to adorn his auspicious elephant and place the throne on his back, to put over it the white multilevelled royal umbrella, to decorate the streets in the city with beautiful ornaments and banners, and pay respect with perfums, incense and flowers all along the way the royal present would be carried. With regard to the King himself, he was adorned with all kinds of adornments and surrounded by his troops carrying muscial instruments. The King considered that he would accompany his present until the border area of his country and that he would give an official letter to the attendants so that they would offer this to King Pukkusåti. The contents of that letter were as follows: ³When you will receive this present, do not receive it in the quarters of the female royal servants, but may you go to the royal palace and receive it there.² When the King had given the official letter, he thought, ³The Teacher goes now to the border country², and he paid respect by the fivefold prostration, kneeling and placing his hands and head on the floor, and then he returned. Footnotes: 9. The four requisites of the monk: clothing, food, dwelling and medicines. 10. Great men or heroes: with distinctive qualities. 18557 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 11:59am Subject: Vessantara-Jataka Hi Sarah, Your quote from the Vessantara-Jataka led to my reading the entire story in the hope that my initial repugnance might be attenuated by something else in the tale. Not so. The Tale in full is, if anything, more appalling than the excerpt you posted. I am thankful I live in an age when the whole crew would have wound up before the Children's Court and received the consequences they deserved for child abuse and failing to provide protection to defenceless minors. Thankfully Jim Anderson did the research to show the Tales are NOT part of the Tipitaka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14958 That other beings could be regarded by the Buddha-to-be as objects to be used and disposed of in order to gain his own spiritual advancement is unbelievable. I see nothing in this story that could even quality it to be regarded as a Morality Tale. I think quoting such stories as if they are authoritative teachings is unwise. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Correction: > > --- Sarah wrote: > ***** > > In his very last life as a Bodhisatta before the present one in which he > > became enlightened, as Vessantara, the parami of equanimity was > > perfected. > .... > This is clearly nonsense. It's the last Jataka tale given but obviously > not the last life which was in a heavenly realm. Also it is the parami of > dana that is perfected on reflection. > > Apologies. > > I believe the Bodhisatta's last several lives were in heavenly realms. > Does anyone know where there is a list showing the order? > > I've also heard/read that the Vessantara Jataka is the first to disappear > from the teachings which I found interesting - the hardest for people to > accept. > > Sarah > p.s any other corrections welcome;-) > ===== 18558 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Howard, Doesn't your post just play the 'let's pretend' game of tipping your hat to the intellectual and spiritual idea of "conditions but no- self", and then carries on regardless in the same way that every person who has never heard the Dhamma does - planning, doing, improving and controlling? If there is no self, just impersonal phenomena and conditions, how can there be control, how can there be courses of action? Isn't your articulate post, just illustrating the clinging to the idea of self whether as a planner, a do-er, a watch-er, or a controll-er that keeps us in Samsara? Isn't this the same old self putting on different clothes - re-framing the Teachings to allow it to continue to rule, creating the more powerfully enslaving prison of progress, achievement, and even the illusion that it is destroying illusions? Your attractive version of not-self shows it continuing to rule absolutely, subtly and tenaciously, but in a much more baneful form. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 18559 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 0:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > I've also heard/read that the Vessantara Jataka is the first to disappear > from the teachings which I found interesting - the hardest for people to > accept. _________ Dear Sarah, I hadn't heard that. In Thailand we see so many temples with paintings of the vessantara Jataka in them. I think it is one of the most well known Jataka that pretty much everyone learns from an early age. I was thinking over it today and how much clinging I have to "my" children. Yet in a few short years I will be dead and in a new life with no memory of them- but for sure clinging to other beings. And so samsara continues for endless aeons. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are demonic beings-ogres, demons, or goblins-or men of cruel disposition, then he does not give them away*(cariyapitaka attakatha)" These chidren and wives are also beings of great merit and they too wish to give and are ready to endure hardship on their own path to parinibbana . The Bodhisatta gives them not though any disdain but because they are the most valued that he clings to. He is ready even to let go of his most loved ones. But perhaps it is even harder to give up self. Robertk welcome;-) > ===== > 18560 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 3:50pm Subject: Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote:conascence-condition (sahajåta-paccaya) > What's there is (names aren't that important) is > intention or cetana or will or effort. It's conditioned, primarily by > previous choices (cetana) that are largely responsible for making us what we > are (character). This intention is free: = controlled without a controller, > because it's not determined (contra-causal causality as it's called in > philosophy). +++++++++++++ Dear Stephen, Yes, names are not important - it is always whether there is understanding of the actual moments. You say "intention is free" becuase its not determined. You seem to believe that if there is no free will that there must be determinism? I don't think so. Instead there are complex conditions are both conditioned and conditioning. Cetana, intention, is one of the mental factors that are part of sankhara khandha . Leaving aside that each moment of sankhara khandha is conditioned by past moments (e.g.anantarapaccaya ) each cetana that arises is also conditioned by other elements that arise together with it - (sahajata paccaya , conascence condition,) according to the Abhidhamma. ____________________ >> This is merely another way of saying that we're not automatons > or marionettes. ______________________ Could we be puppets though? http://www.abhidhamma.org/Patthana%203%20chapter_7.htm In the "Kindred Sayings"(I, Sagåthå-vagga, V, Suttas of Sisters, § 9), Neither self-made the puppet is, nor yet By other wrought is this ill- plighted thing. By reason of a cause it came to be, By rupture of a cause it dies away. Like a certain seed sown in the field, Which, when it comes upon the taste of earth, And moisture likewise, by these two grows, So the five khandhas, the elements, And the six spheres of sense even all these, By reason of a cause they came to be; By rupture of a cause they die away.""" From the VisuddhiMagga, chap. xi. And it is when the body is impelled by the wind element that it performs its four functions of walking, standing, sitting, or lying-down, or draws in and stretches out its arms, or moves its hands and its feet. Thus does this machine made of the four elements move like a puppet, and deceives all foolish people with its femininity, masculinity, etc"endquote. From majjhima nikaya 82 p683 Bodhi "Behold a puppet here pranked out, a body built from sores, sick, an object of concern, where no stabilty abides" "Just as a wooden puppet though unsubstantial, lifeless and inactive may by means of pulling strings be made to move about, stand up, and appear full of life and activity; just so are mind and body, as such, something empty, lifeless and inactive; but by means of their mutual working together, this mental and bodily combination may move about, stand up, and appear full of life and activity." from the Satipatthana sutta atthakatta (sections on modes of deportment)"Just as a ship goes on by winds impelled, Just as a shaft goes by the bowstring's force, So goes this body in its forward course Full driven by the vibrant thrust of air. As to the puppet's back the dodge-thread's tied So to the body-doll the mind is joined And pulled by that the body moves, stands, sits. Where is the living being that can stand, Or walk, by force of its own inner strength, Without conditions that give it support? " Acharn Sujin spoke to me while we were in Kaeng Krachan about that anattaness of this world. She said there really are no people, no Sujin, no Robert, no Nina. There are only momentary phenomena. It sort of shocked me at the time because I was in a slight daydream about a grilfriend , enjoying being lost in concept, I didn't want to know the truth right then. Didn't want to think there was just conditions, nama and rupa. But then sometimes there is awareness of a dhamma, like hardness or lobha, and there is just a little insight that it really is that way. ---------------------- > (Someone(s) have systematically gone through the suttas putting in standard > formulas for jhana and the hindrances. This isn't too harmful. When we come > to the abhidhamma since there were 5 hindrances they decided to have 5 levels > of jhana. Neato. By this point not only did these systematizers and copyist > have no experiences to get in the way of their catalogs they're were no > longer even interested in having any; truth had ceased to be a hindrance to > them.) ___________ "truth had ceased to be a hindrance to them". You mean that Buddhaghosa and the monks who recorded the early commentaries were liars? "Have no experience to get in the way" : how do you know they had no experience of Jhana? _______________ > > > > >When we think of intention and choice and being able to control, > >this is thinking and it is not understanding the nature of cetana, > >intention, as a momentary phenomena -it cannot last even for a split > >second, nor can any feelings or consciousness. > If this is part of the theory that mental events happen 'faster than the > speed of light' and all that it has no more merit than flat earth cosmology. > It's *known* to be wrong. > (The Catholic Church has a long history of being at odds with science, much > to their embarrassment and loss.) ________ You mean that consciousness lasts? Where do you get ideas about anything being 'faster than the speed of light" Citta, consciousness arises and passes away- it doesn't go anywhere. it's certainly not speeding around the universe. Nor does it last billions of years to come to the earth as scientists talk about light travelling from other planets. Not part of Abhidhamma. ____________ > > > > >Robert: We have much ignorance about dhammas, they have to be known in > >detail. But when we emphasize intention and self-effort the knowing > >will be tied up with craving - and then the links of the > >Paticcasamuppada are strengthened. _______ > Stephen: There's a very tricky point here, and, despite all the above, it's where we > actually may have some agreement; at least discussion. It is indeed the > self-effort of getting and becoming which ties us to samsara, the bhavacakka. > One is liberated who abandons craving. Now: how does one accomplish that? > It's like doing nothing, or attaining not-attaining. > Wu-wei (spelling?) is the Taoist notion of not-doing. But it doesn't mean > doing nothing, it means no Self-doing, no selfish getting and becoming; > becoming one with the grain of the universe. Effortless effort. No action > from separateness, which leads to attachment. Very paradoxical to try to > describe. In the seeing, just seeing (no seer and nothing seen), in the > doing, just doing (no doer and nothing done). > Viriya as 'effort'; perhaps not quite right. ________ Yes, I think effort not a good translation of viriya.Perhaps energy is better. Best is to know the difference between right viriya and wrong viriya when they arise in the moment. ___________ RobertK We know what it can feel like, > following an inner motivation that is effortless (unlike returning to work > tomorrow! â€"a chore), following our natural being; nothing compulsive. > Pursuing our highest good. So efforts to improve, to develop (as the Buddha > exhorted, relinquish akusala, adopt kusala) need not be something a self > does, but something the universe does. > > metta, stephen > > (I'll read any reply you send with interest but will sadly be very busy this > coming week; so you *may* have the last word.) > 18561 From: Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 4:34pm Subject: unconditioned state Hi all, What does it mean to say that nibbana is the unconditioned state? Does it mean that cessation of desire and dukkha is uncaused? If so, there must be a disconnect between the 8-fold path and nibbana. The path will take one just so far to the other shore, but not all the way. Cessation just happens, without cause, and pathwise bhavana is, strictly speaking, unnecessary. So how is the path a path to the end of dukkha? Larry 18562 From: Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi, Christine - In a message dated 1/6/03 3:31:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Doesn't your post just play the 'let's pretend' game of tipping your > hat to the intellectual and spiritual idea of "conditions but no- > self", and then carries on regardless in the same way that every > person who has never heard the Dhamma does - planning, doing, > improving and controlling? > If there is no self, just impersonal phenomena and conditions, how > can there be control, how can there be courses of action? Isn't > your articulate post, just illustrating the clinging to the idea of > self whether as a planner, a do-er, a watch-er, or a controll-er that > keeps us in Samsara? Isn't this the same old self putting on > different clothes - re-framing the Teachings to allow it to continue > to rule, creating the more powerfully enslaving prison of progress, > achievement, and even the illusion that it is destroying illusions? > Your attractive version of not-self shows it continuing to rule > absolutely, subtly and tenaciously, but in a much more baneful form. > > metta, > Christine > =========================== No, I don't think so. There - I said "I". (And it was said again in this last sentence! It's very hard to speak without using personal pronouns.) Is there an "I"? No. But is it meaningful to say it? Yes, it sure is. All our language is conventional, and when it is taken literally it confirms our tendencies towards substantialism and nihilism. Every time we use a noun, one can think there corresponds a self-existent entity. Utimately, the only way to express literal truth is to say not a word! This, in fact, is a point frequently made in Zen writings. But to live in this world, we must use language and linguistic conventions. The Buddha taught us to guard the senses and to be vigilant. He had us exercise volition. Is this in an ultimate-truth formulation? No. But does it make sense, and should we pay attention to it? You bet! Guarding the senses, and willfully maintaining mindfulness are essential parts of the training. Is control possible? Well, I'm not exactly sure what that means. (Actually, I prefer the word 'influence' to 'control', because 'control' can often mean 'total control'.) Volition and volitional action are possible. That's exactly what the Budha meant by 'kamma'. Volition is possible - it occurs all the time. There is just no entity who wills. There is only the willing. You ask "If there is no self, just impersonal phenomena and conditions, how can there be control, how can there be courses of action?" Well, one can equally well ask "If there is no thinker of thoughts, how can there be the thinking of thoughts?", "If there is no one who feels, how can there be feeling?", and "If there is no one cultivating sila, how can there be sila?" Your question implies that for there to be control, there must be a controller. For there to be thinking, must there be a thinker??? Thinking thinks, feeling feels, and cetana exercises influence. For some reason, people want to make cetana a second-class citizen among the cetasikas. Perhaps this is because willing is thought to be characteristic of a "self". But that's just a mistake. Willing arises, but there is no one who wills. There is no willer and no doer. But willing and kamma occur. Choices are made. The choices are conditioned. They are not random - they are not unconditioned. But choices are made, and they have consequences. In your lead paragraph you ask "Doesn't your post just play the 'let's pretend' game of tipping your hat to the intellectual and spiritual idea of "conditions but no- self", and then carries on regardless in the same way that every person who has never heard the Dhamma does - planning, doing, improving and controlling?" Well, speaking conventionally, we *do* plan, act, improve, and control events to some extent. There does exist quite meaningful (conventional) speech. The Buddha used such speech all the time. Should he have studied Abhidhamma more carefully? ;-) When we are taken in by our speech conventions, we will make all sorts of mistakes. But this needn't be so. A farmer may tell a visitor to his farm that a sprout has the power to grow into a plant. If the visitor asks the farmer where in the sprout that power is located, the farmer would look at him as if he were insane. What the farmer said about the sprout's power to grow into a plant is a conventional way of expressing complex relationships of conditionality. There is nothing wrong with the farmer's conventional statement. In a succinct way it expresses very complex facts. But it is open to substantialist misinterpretation. Likewise, there is nothing wrong in speaking of courses of action and of making choices. This is meaningful and useful language so long as it is not misinterpreted. On the other hand, it *is* wrong to take the literal incorrectness of conventional speech as a basis for saying that choices cannot be made, that nothing can be done, and that whatever will happen will happen, and that's that. The Buddha taught a program of training for us to put into practice. That is true. When our "understanding" of impersonality leads us to the point that we disbelieve the truth of it, it is time, I believe, to change our "understanding". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18563 From: peterdac4298 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 5:08pm Subject: The Lion of Men Hi All Found this on Binh Anson's web page:- http://www.budsas.org/ebud/rdbud/rdbud-01.htm Part of an article by Radhika Abeysekera 4. Yasodhara Yasodhara was the daughter of King Suppabuddha and Queen Pamita. However, her love and devotion are best seen in the poem "The Lion of Men". Pointing out the Buddha and His retinue of monks to their son from the palace balcony, with adoration she described the Buddha and introduced Him to little Rahula. The following are the words she used to describe the Buddha: The Lion of Men His red, sacred feet are marked with an excellent wheel; His long heels are decked with characteristic marks; His feet are adorned with the chowrie (camara) and parasol; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. He is a delicate and noble Sakya Prince; His body is full of characteristic marks; Intent on the welfare of the world; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Like the full moon is His face; He is dear to gods and men; His gait is as graceful as that of an elephant of noble breed; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. He is of noble lineage, sprung from the warrior caste; His feet have been honoured by gods and men; His mind is well established in morality and concentration; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Long and prominent is His well-formed nose; His eyelashes are long like those of a heifer; His eyes are exceedingly blue and like a rainbow are His blue-black brows; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Round and smooth is His well-formed neck; His jaws are strong like that of a lion; His body is golden like that of the king of beasts; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Soft and deep is His sweet voice; His tongue is as red as vermilion; His white teeth like pearls are twenty, each row; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Like the colour of collyrium is His blue-black hair; Like a polished golden plate is His smooth forehead; White as the morning star is His beautiful tuft of hair (between the brows); That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Just as the moon, surrounded by the multitude of stars; Follows the sky's path; Even so goes the Lord, accompanied by His monks; That, indeed, is your father, lion of men. Yasodhara gave up the household life and entered the order of nuns at the same time as Maha Pajapati Gotami . She attained Arahanthship and was declared the chief disciple among the nuns who attained supernormal powers (Maha Abhiaaa) to recall infinite eras of the past. Only four of the Buddha's disciples had such powers. In general, the Buddha's disciples could only recall up to 100,000 world cycles. Yasodara, the Buddha's two chief male disciples and the Elder Bakkula, however, had supernormal powers and could recall incalculable eras. The nun Yasodhara passed away at the age of 78, prior to the Lord Buddha. Cheers Peter 18564 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 5:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) --- Dear Howard, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Guarding the senses, > and willfully maintaining mindfulness are essential parts of the training. __________ Dear Howard, As we have said so many times on this forum all types of sila and jhana can be developed with an idea of self. But we need to be careful when discussing the development of vipassana as for this any idea of self will hinder. Can mindfulness be "willfully maintined"? Certainly it is possible with enough practice and effort to attend almost continually to breath or feelings or rupas in the body or hardness or seeing but this type of attention is not neccessarly the mindfulness of the eightfold path. ________ > For some reason, people want to make cetana a second-class citizen > among the cetasikas. Perhaps this is because willing is thought to be > characteristic of a "self". But that's just a mistake. __________ Could you be specific as to who does that? It will help if you give quotes. How do you feel about this statement "In the Nidanavagga (book of causation about Paticcasamuppada) the Buddha said in several suttas "Bhikkhus what one intends and what one plans and whatever one has a tendency towards this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness..when consciousness is established there is the production of renewed existence, birth, ageing, death, sorrow ... BUT bhikkhus when one does not intend, and one does not plan and one does not have a tendency toward anything no basis exists for consciousness...there is no production of renewed existence..no birth, ageing, death, sorrow,.."endquote see 576Bodhi ____________ it *is* wrong to take the literal incorrectness of > conventional speech as a basis for saying that choices cannot be made, that > nothing can be done, and that whatever will happen will happen, and that's > that. _____ If someone suggested that here could you refer to the post. Robertk 18565 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 6:03pm Subject: Re: unconditioned state --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > The path will > take one just so far to the other shore, but not all the way. Cessation > just happens, without cause, and pathwise bhavana is, strictly speaking, > unnecessary. ________ Dear larry, Is magga citta (path moment) an unconditioned dhamma? No it is conditioned. RobertK 18566 From: Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state Hi Robert, you wrote: Dear larry, Is magga citta (path moment) an unconditioned dhamma? No it is conditioned. RobertK L: Is path consciousness (magga citta) nibbana? No. For there to be consciousness of nibbana, nibbana (cessation) must have "happened". What caused it? the path? is it somehow already the case? Larry 18567 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 8:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > L: Is path consciousness (magga citta) nibbana? No. For there to be > consciousness of nibbana, nibbana (cessation) must have "happened". What > caused it? the path? is it somehow already the case? > ++++++++++++++++++ Dear Larry, Nibbana is not caused or conditioned by anything. That is why it called unconditioned: it does not arise, nor does it cease. But Nibbana is the object of magga citta - which is conditioned by sammaditthi, right view, and the other factors of the eighfactored path. RobertK 18568 From: Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state Hi Robert, So, for a sotapanna nibbana is the cessation of ditthi but nothing causes that cessation. Cognizing that cessation is magga citta and that cognizing is conditioned by the path factors (and the cessation?). Is that how it works? Larry 18569 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 9:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > So, for a sotapanna nibbana is the cessation of ditthi but nothing > causes that cessation. Cognizing that cessation is magga citta and that > cognizing is conditioned by the path factors (and the cessation?). Is > that how it works? ________ Dear Larry, Let's put it this way: Magga citta experiences nibbana. Magga citta is conditioned and it is magga citta that eradicates ditthi. Nibbana is unconditioned. RobertK 18570 From: Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state Hi Robert, I'll have to ponder this. If you have any textual references to the point that the sotapanna magga citta eradicates ditthi, that would be helpful. Thanks for the dialogue. Larry -------------------- Robert: Dear Larry, Let's put it this way: Magga citta experiences nibbana. Magga citta is conditioned and it is magga citta that eradicates ditthi. Nibbana is unconditioned. RobertK 18571 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 10:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I'll have to ponder this. If you have any textual references to the > point that the sotapanna magga citta eradicates ditthi, that would be > helpful. Thanks for the dialogue. > > Larry > -------------------- Dear Larry, Someone might find a reference for this. I want to add that magga- citta is a citta that has the factors of the eighfold path in full strength. We might think it something mystical or strange but it is really only a highly developed version of the moments of true awareness of dhammas (that may be occuring already). So it is wisdom, panna, sammaditthi, that is performing the function of cutting ditthi - but assisted by the co-occuring factors of viriya and samadhi and the others. Robertk 18572 From: James Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 11:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > The Tathagata can only be freed from the classification of form at > death, parinibbana. While alive, the Tathagata is not yet freed from > form (though he has uprooted the roots by which form arises). The > five aggregates still remain in existence. > > Once FREED (parinibbana), the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to > fathom, like the sea (note that this is a different description by > the Buddha than the one given for nibbana earlier in the sutta). > Which means that any way by which we `point' to the Tathagata, > that `pointing' doesn't apply. > > And, IMHO, the Tathagata, though freed from the classification of > the five aggregates, is not nibbana. We cannot `point' to the > Tathagata as nibbana. Nibbana itself is a phenomenon, the > unconditioned phenomenon. Whereas the Tathagata, freed, is no longer > any phenomenon. The Tathagata, freed, is non-phenomenon, for a lack > of a better word. Hi NEO, I wanted to respond to this post. I know that this is a sticking point: What was the difference between the Buddha alive and dead? I say that there is none; you say that there is. The error, I believe, in your thinking is what you believe 'existence' means. You seem to believe that existence means that 'something' is 'there'. Take for example an apple. You believe that an apple 'exists' because you can see it, feel it, taste it, etc.; and because it appears to be separate from a table, the sky, a tree, etc.; however, none of this is true. Using that criteria, the apple doesn't exist. As the Buddha taught, what only exists are conditions: This/That conditionality. The apple exists because of conditions of 'this', when 'this' is removed, 'that' doesn't exist. So, the apple does not exist as a seperate 'something' that is 'out' there. The same goes for people. If 'this' (craving, desire for existence, ignorance) isn't there, 'that' (a human being) isn't there either. The Buddha didn't have craving, desire for existence, or ignorance, so the Buddha didn't 'exist' by your definition of existing. He was 'deep, unfathomable, and immesurable' while alive and dead. What was the difference? There wasn't a difference. The Buddha was Nibbana. Well, the Buddha explained it all in one very telling sutta: Bahuna Sutta To Bahuna I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?" "Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. "Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an10-081.html This entire sutta is in present tense. It is talking about the Buddha as he was at that moment in time, not when he reached parinibbina. So, the Buddha was 'Freed, Dissociated, and Released' from: Form, Feeling, Perception, Fabrications, Consciousness, Birth, Aging, Death, Stress, Defilement. The 'Tathagata', while 'alive' was freed, dissociated, and released from all of these things. How could this be? How could be be freed from aging when he later aged? How could he be freed from death when he later died? I will get to that in a moment. Now, from your way of thinking, you may argue that 'Freed, Dissociated, and Released' doesn't mean they didn't 'exist' anymore, they still 'existed.' If this is so, they existed for who? Surely they didn't exist for the Buddha, he has just said that the very things that compose him, he has been freed from them. What is he now? He is only 'Unrestricted Awareness.' Or, using my previous terminology, 'Pure Mind'. What will he be after parinibbana? Well, the same conditions as above will not have changed any so he will be the same, 'Unrestricted Awareness'; or, again, 'Pure Mind'. So why did he 'appear' to his contemporaries to 'exist'. Why did he appear to age and die? I am not 100% sure, but as I have been arguing, it is because 'we' or 'samsara' continued on the illusion of the Buddha 'existing' even when the 'conditions' for his 'individual existence' had ceased. Even though the conditions that created him had ceased, we had not ceased, post facto we not only create ourselves, we create the whole samsara existence. This is something that the Buddha wanted his monks to find out for themselves, but the Mahayana Buddhists let this 'cat out of the bag' later. Metta, James 18573 From: James Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Re: unconditioned state --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > What does it mean to say that nibbana is the unconditioned state? Does > it mean that cessation of desire and dukkha is uncaused? If so, there > must be a disconnect between the 8-fold path and nibbana. The path will > take one just so far to the other shore, but not all the way. Cessation > just happens, without cause, and pathwise bhavana is, strictly speaking, > unnecessary. So how is the path a path to the end of dukkha? > > Larry Hi Larry, Hmmm...Abhidhamma explanations of this don't make much sense do they? Please allow me to give a different perspective. You are asking that if Nibbana is unconditioned than the 'stopping' of those things which cause samsara are unconditioned as well. In other words, that Nibbana is the 'result' of the removal of the cause for samsara. Interesting and deep thinking, but I believe slightly off. No, the cessation of desire and dukkha is conditioned; it is conditioned by the Eightfold Path. Remember, conditioning, as taught by the Buddha, is 'this/that' conditioning. When you have 'this', you have 'that'. When you have 'ignorance, craving for existence, and desire' (this), you have 'samsara and dukkha' (that). But what is the 'this' for nibbana? There isn't one. Nibbana isn't a 'that'. Nibbana just 'is'. It was never started and will never end. It is not the result of conditions. Therefore, it cannot be understood with our mind which is the result of conditions. It can't be experienced with any type of 'citta', which are also the result of conditions. I hope this answers in a way you can understand. If you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 18575 From: Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 9:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/6/03 9:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- Dear Howard, > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Guarding the senses, > >and willfully maintaining mindfulness are essential parts of the > training. > __________ > Dear Howard, > As we have said so many times on this forum all types of sila and > jhana can be developed with an idea of self. But we need to be > careful when discussing the development of vipassana as for this any > idea of self will hinder. Can mindfulness be "willfully maintined"? > Certainly it is possible with enough practice and effort to attend > almost continually to breath or feelings or rupas in the body or > hardness or seeing but this type of attention is not neccessarly the > mindfulness of the eightfold path. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. It must be right mindfulness. ---------------------------------------------- > ________ > > > For some reason, people want to make cetana a second-class > citizen > >among the cetasikas. Perhaps this is because willing is thought to > be > >characteristic of a "self". But that's just a mistake. > > __________ > Could you be specific as to who does that? It will help if you give > quotes. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I was conjecturing as to why cetana is spoken of little, and, then, almost always only negatively. I think it is true that most people think of willing as something that a "self" does, and I conjecture that this is a reason for Buddhists to look askance at cetana. I cannot give you chapter and verse, Robert, but my impression, and I don't think that I'm wrong in this, is that a number of people on this list, you a little bit, Sarah a little more, and Jon even moreso, and others (all of whom I admire and have great fondness for) consider that no-control is a 100% kind of thing, and that, because there is no self, volition cannot be exercised. I have read enumerable posts on DSG to convince me of this. If I'm incorrect in this, then I am very pleased. If I'm correct, well, so it is. ----------------------------------------------------- > How do you feel about this statement "In the Nidanavagga > (book of causation about Paticcasamuppada) the Buddha said in > several suttas > "Bhikkhus what one intends and what one plans and whatever one has a > tendency towards this becomes a basis for the maintenance of > consciousness..when consciousness is established there is the > production of renewed existence, birth, ageing, death, sorrow ... > BUT bhikkhus when one does not intend, and one does not plan and one > does not have a tendency toward anything no basis exists for > consciousness...there is no production of renewed existence..no > birth, ageing, death, sorrow,.."endquote see 576Bodhi > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha made differing statements to different people to address differing "ailments". He also directed his followers to engage in various actions, i.e. to exercise their will. -------------------------------------------------- > ____________ > > it *is* wrong to take the literal incorrectness of > >conventional speech as a basis for saying that choices cannot be > made, that > >nothing can be done, and that whatever will happen will happen, and > that's > >that. > _____ > > If someone suggested that here could you refer to the post. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, I have neither the time nor inclination to do a search. My impression is one of impossibility of taking action. Again, if I'm wrong I'm very pleased. --------------------------------------------------- > > > Robertk > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18576 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) Hi Rob K (& Christine), --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > I've also heard/read that the Vessantara Jataka is the first to > disappear > > from the teachings which I found interesting - the hardest for > people to > > accept. > _________ > Dear Sarah, > I hadn't heard that. In Thailand we see so many temples with > paintings of the vessantara Jataka in them. I think it is one of the > most well known Jataka that pretty much everyone learns from an early > age. ..... Yes, it’s also one of the stories told (in verse) in the Cariyapitaka in the Khuddaka Nikaya too. From the DoPPN, the stories told in the Cariyapitaka ‘presuppose a familiar acquaintance with all the incidents of the prose tales. the first two paramis are illustrated by ten storeis each, while the remaining parami have only fifteen stories betwen them.’ Also ‘according to the Commentary , the Cariyapitaka was preached by the Buddha at the Nigrodharama, after the conclusion of the Buddhavamsa and at the request of Sariputta. It was preached by Mahinda at the Nandanavana in Anuradhapura, soon after his arrival in Ceylon.’ As Chris points out, the Jataka stories (as opposed to the short verses) are commentaries, like the Dhammapada stories or Udana commentary (both of which are also far more extensive than the verses).They were undoubetedly, from what I’ve read, handed down by oral tradition and in the manuscripts which Buddhaghosa and other commentators had access to. I believe they’ve also been found in very early cave paintings and are an accepted part of the Pali canon along with the other ancient commentaries by Buddhaghosa and Dhammapala as far as I understand. Rob, the DoPPN also makes reference to the comment about this story disappearing first . Maybe it’s where I had read it. It gives a reference to the Anguttara commentary, i.51. Perhaps Kom or someone with access to this commentary could kindly check it out. After his life as Vessantara, he was reborn in the Tusita heaven having fulfilled all the paramis. From there he was reborn for the last life. I fully understand your feelings of revulsion, Chris. I didn’t read through the story yesterday but was just checking one or two details as I wrote. As I mentioned, even then, there were tears as I wrote, but at the same time great joy in the example of renunciation by the Bodhisatta, Maddi and even the children. “This earth, unconscious though she be, And ignorant of joy or grief, E’en she then felt arms’ mighty power, And shook and quaked full seven times.” ***** It’s very hard to comprehend. I find it helpful just to reflect on the extent of what needs to be given up, rather than on the details. ..... >I was thinking over it today and how much clinging I have > to "my" children. Yet in a few short years I will be dead and in a > new life with no memory of them- but for sure clinging to other > beings. And so samsara continues for endless aeons. ..... I know. It’s not easy to even reflect wisely. Like the reflections on death - this life is just a very small drop in samsara and all we find dear will be gone. Like the wind blowing past as K.Sujin reminds us. So difficult. ..... > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm > "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, > the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to > go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then > he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are > demonic beings-ogres, demons, or goblins-or men of cruel disposition, > then he does not give them away*(cariyapitaka attakatha)" ..... Vessantara’s children (after hiding) eventually agree, but hardly sound joyful......and then try to escape and return to their father, but they’d already been given..... hmm.... Maddi is definitely willing. ..... > These chidren and wives are also beings of great merit and they too > wish to give and are ready to endure hardship on their own path > to parinibbana . .... Yes, there are conditions for them to be in his family and able, like Maddi to see beyond just this life. I’ve also just read that at the same time the future Buddha was born (in his final life), Yasodara (Rahula’s mother), Channa and one or two other key courtiers, Kanthaka, the king of horses that he left the palace on, and also the Bo-tree came into existence. Nothing happens without conditions or by chance. More on this later. ..... > The Bodhisatta gives them not though any disdain but because they are > the most valued that he clings to. He is ready even to let go > of his most loved ones. But perhaps it is even harder to give up self. ..... .....and attachment to self as K.Pasenadi and Q.Mallika acknowledged. Sarah ====== 18577 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Lion of Men Dear Peter, Christine & All, A few more details on the conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta and the reasons for time, place and family for the birth of the future Buddha: ***** Conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: 1.- human being 2.- male 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the wish 4.- wish only in the presence of a living Buddha 5.- only a recluse or monk (not a layman) 6.- only one who has attained all jhanas and powers 7.- firm resolve and ‘ready to sacrifice his life for The Buddhas’ 8.- determination to develop paramis and qualities of a Buddha 9.-able to endure extraordinary and unbelievable hardship ***** Reasons for the time, place, family and mother of the future Buddha (last life time) http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits004.htm 1.- right time when length of life is between 100 and 100,000 years. At the time, the lives were 100 yrs, so it was right. Longer than 100,000 yrs and it’s impossible for beings to appreciate impermanence. ”Also it is not the right time when men's lives are less than a hundred years. And why is it not the right time? Because mortals are then exceedingly corrupt; and an exhortation given to the exceedingly corrupt makes no impression, but, like a mark drawn with a stick on the surface of the water, it immediately disappears. This, therefore, also is not the right time.” 2.-right continent is India. Buddhas are only ever born in India. 3.- right place is the Middle Country for the same reason. (Lumbini falls in this area). “In this country are born The Buddhas, the Private Buddhas,1 the Chief Disciples, the Eighty Great Disciples, the Universal Monarch, and other eminent ones, magnates of the warrior caste, of the Brahman caste, and the wealthy householders. "And in it is this city called Kapilavatthu," thought he, and concluded that there he ought to be born. 4.- right family is the Sakkyan clan “ "The Buddhas," thought he, "are never born into a family of the peasant caste, or of the servile caste; but into one of the warrior caste, or of the Brahman caste, whichever at the time is the higher in public estimation. The warrior caste is now the higher in public estimation. I will be born into a warrior family, and king Suddhodana shall be my father." Thus he decided on the family.” 5.- right mother is Maha Maya “Then he made the observation concerning the mother. "The mother of a Buddha," thought he, "is never a wanton, nor a drunkard, but is one who has fulfilled the perfections through a hundred thousand cycles, and has kept the five precepts unbroken from the day of her birth. Now this queen Mahâ-Mâyâ is such a one; and she shall be my mother." “-- p. 42 [J.i.4928 ***** We then read: ”Then, surrounded by the gods of the Tusita heaven, and dismissing all the other gods, he entered the Nandana Grove of the Tusita capital,--for in each of the heavens there is a Nandana Grove. And here the gods said, "Attain in your next existence your high destiny," and kept reminding him that he had already paved the way to it by his accumulated merit. Now it was while he was thus dwelling, surrounded by these deities, and continually reminded of his accumulated merit, that he died, and was conceived in the womb of queen Mahâ-Mâyâ.” ***** A little more on Maha Maya’s confinement and why she died a few days after his birth: “From the time the Future Buddha was thus conceived, four angels with swords in their hands kept guard, to ward off all harm from both the Future Buddha and the Future Buddha's mother. No lustful thought sprang up in the mind of the Future Buddha's mother; having reached the pinnacle of good fortune and of glory, she felt comfortable and well, and experienced no exhaustion of body. And within her womb she could distinguish the Future Buddha, like a white thread passed through a transparent jewel. And whereas a womb that has been occupied by a Future Buddha is like the shrine of a temple, and can never be occupied or used again, therefore it was that the mother of the Future Buddha died when he was seven days old, and was reborn in the Tusita heaven.” p. 45 [J.i.5131 ***** Thank you for the extra details, Peter. In this text it mentions that the reason the future Buddha didn’t wake his wife was because she would have prevented his departure. Channa, the courtier and Kanthaka ‘the mighty steed’ (both ‘coming into existence’, like Yasodara on the day of the Bodhisatta’s birth as mentioned) help make the departure possible. Sarah ==== 18578 From: nidive Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi James, I disagree. My interpretation of "freed, dissociated, & released" in this (Bahuna) sutta is different. "Freed, dissociated, & released" means that the three roots of attachment, aversion and ignorance have been uprooted. The Tathagata, while alive, having uprooted the three roots with respect to the ten things, dwells with unrestricted awareness. > So why did he 'appear' to his contemporaries to 'exist'. Why did he > appear to age and die? I am not 100% sure, but as I have been > arguing, it is because 'we' or 'samsara' continued on the illusion > of the Buddha 'existing' even when the 'conditions' for his > 'individual existence' had ceased. This is an untenable position. You yourself isn't sure about it. The Tathagata did not appear to age and die. He aged and died. Period. The Tathagata, knowing aging as aging, has no attachment, nor aversion, nor ignorance about aging. Knowing aging as aging, he dwells, while alive, with unrestricted awareness that he is aging. Same goes for dying, death. To say that the Tathagata does not feel pain and yet the Tathagata says he feels pain is indirectly saying that the Tathagata is a hypocrite. If he doesn't feel pain, the Tathagata will say he doesn't feel pain. The Tathagata does not lie. Though he still feels pain physically, yet he has no mental aversion to it. Knowing physical pain as physical pain, feeling as feeling, he dwells with an unrestricted awareness: there is physical pain, there is feeling. He is mindful of physical pain, mindful of feeling. This mindfulness is that unrestricted awareness. The Tathagata is simply 'aware of'. The Tathagata, dead, no longer has this mindfulness or unrestricted awareness. There is simply no awareness anymore. Even the Buddha admitted that when he was alive, he himself is subjected to aging: Now on that occasion the Blessed One, on emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, sat warming his back in the western sun. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, massaged the Blessed One's limbs with his hand and said, "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." "That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. The complexion is no longer so clear & bright; the limbs are flabby & wrinkled; the back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in the faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." [SN XLVIII.41] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/buddha.html#last Do you mean the Tathagata is putting up a show for Ananda? Do you mean that the Tathagata is putting up the world's greatest show at his parinibbana? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18579 From: Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state Hi, Robert (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/7/03 12:38:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Larry, > Let's put it this way: Magga citta experiences nibbana. Magga citta > is conditioned and it is magga citta that eradicates ditthi. Nibbana > is unconditioned. > RobertK ============================ I guess part of the "problem" is how nibbana is described. Sometimes it is described as absence - the absence of the three poisons and the absence of dukkha. That seems unproblematical. (In a sense, that absence is always "present" in that dukkha and the three poisons are adventitious, and not essential.) On the other hand, nibbana is sometimes referred to as a cessation. The problem with that, it seems to me, is that cessation is an event, something which occurs in time and which occurs due to certain conditions having preceded it. Perhaps from the perspective of nibbana itself (above the clouds, so to speak), it is absence, and from the perspective of samsara, at the point of realization of nibbana (below the clouds, so to speak), it is cessation. [Just musings on my part.] With metta, Howard P.S. My previous post to you on the Descriptive vs Prescriptive thread was rather hurriedly written early this morning, and, perhaps, not as amicably written as it should have been (for which I apologize). I was rushing off for cataract surgery. I'm back from that now, and though I have a bit of discomfort, I also have the leisure time to write a better post than my previous one. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 18580 From: nidive Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi Sarah, > > Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, > > tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, > > to-be-experienced by the wise. > > This statement refers to nibbana. Nibbana is the unconditioned > phenomenon. I am correcting my statement. This statement refers to the Dhamma. But I see no implication in my line of reasoning: for one who has realized the Dhamma would also have realized the unconditioned phenomenon, nibbana. I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn06-001.html Please let me know if you have another interpretation of the word 'reappear' as used by Vaccha. Maybe it's meaning is different in Pali? I do not know any Pali. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18581 From: nidive Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 7:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Conclusions On Nibbana (Long) Hi James, > What will he be after parinibbana? Well, the same conditions > as above will not have changed any so he will be the same, > 'Unrestricted Awareness'; or, again, 'Pure Mind'. How do you interpret this verse uttered by Ven. Anuruddha: "Like a flames's unbinding was the liberation of awareness."? When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total Unbinding, Ven. Anuruddha uttered this verse: He had no in-&-out breathing, the one who was Such, the firm-minded one, imperturbable & bent on peace: the sage completing his span. With heart unbowed he endured the pain. Like a flame's unbinding was the liberation of awareness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16a.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 18582 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 34, Comm, Breathing Hi Larry, This whole passage quoted from the Path of Discrimination, does not belong to the sutta text, it is added by Ven. Soma. It is not in my Pali text. Whatever we read baut breathing, in this sutta the context is satipatthana, mindfulness and understanding of nama and rupa that naturally appear, whatever they may be: jhanafactors, or the tangible object of breath or whatever. I would like to say more later on, still overwhelmed by work. Nina op 06-01-2003 01:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, The Section on Breathing, p.46 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > And so the Blessed One, pointing out the forest abode, the fit place for > speedy exertion in the practice of meditation, said "Gone to the > forest", and so forth. > > Nisidati pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya parimukham satim > upatthapetva so satova assasati sato passasati = "Sits down, bends in > his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps is body erect, and arouses > mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in > front of him. Mindful he breathes in, and mindful he breathes out." > "Arouses mindfulness in front." Fixes the attention by directing it 18583 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 11:20am Subject: Dhamma Issues 2, Fruition Attainment, no 7 Dhamma Issues 2, Fruition Attainment, no 7 There are three kinds of attainments, samåpatti: jhåna-attainment, fruition-attainment and cessation-attainment (nirodha samåpatti [15) which are progressively more subtle and refined. The ordinary person is able to attain at his own level mundane jhåna. The ariyan who has attained enlightenment with lokuttara cittas accompanied by factors of different stages of jhåna is able to enter fruition-attainment with the phalacitta (fruition-consciousness) accompanied by the jhånafactors in conformity with the stage of jhåna he has attained. With regard to the non-returner and arahat, only those with the eight attainments (of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna), can enter cessation-attainment. Therefore, only those who are able to attain jhåna can enter these different attainments, depending on the individual¹s accumulations. 6. We read in the Visuddhimagga Ch XXIII, the Benefits of the Development of Understanding, (XXIII, 11, how can one enter fruition-attainment?): ²And if the Path he has arrived at was accompanied by the first jhåna (pathama jhånika magga), his fruition will also be accompanied by the first jhåna when it arises. If the Path is with the second jhåna, so will the fruition. And so with the other jhånas.² This shows that here only the person who is able to attain jhåna has been referred to. Thus, if the supramundane path-consciousness (lokuttara magga-citta) is accompanied by factors of one of the stages of jhåna he can enter fruition-attainment in accordance with the factors of that particular jhåna. One may object that when for the ariyan without jhåna attainment the magga-citta arises there is a high degree of calm with absorption which can be compared to the calm of the first stage of jhåna. One might therefore conclude that afterwards he is likely to be able to enter fruition-attainment with phala-citta accompanied by factors of the first jhåna (pathama jhånika phala). However, we should consider the following: it is true that the magga-citta of the ariyan without jhåna-attainment has calm with absorption equal to the tranquillity of the first jhåna, but this is because nibbåna is the object at that moment. Since he is without jhåna attainment and he has lokuttara citta without jhåna factors, samådhi, concentration, has not sufficient strength so that the citta with strong absorption in the object of nibbåna could arise again after he attained enlightenment and became an ariyan. ****** Footnote 15. Nirodha samåpatti: the attainment of extinction, the temporary suspension of consciousness and all mental activity. 18584 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 11:58am Subject: Test This is just a test. 18585 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 0:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Howard, and Robert, I wonder if you could give some further clarification about Right Intention (samma sankappa). In his book The Noble Eightfold Path Bhikkhu Bodhi says the term refers to the purposive or conative aspect of mental activity that is sometimes rendered as 'Right Thought' - but the cognitive aspect is covered by the first factor Right View. In his chapter on Right Intention, he states that the Buddha explains Right Intention as threefold: the intention of renunciation (which counters the intention of desire), the intention of good will (which counters the intention of ill will), and the intention of harmlessness (which counters the intention of harmfulness). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch3 I have been reading a little on intention as kamma, and am not clear about whether intention that is "not acted upon", is kamma. Previously I have understood kamma to be the cetasika cetana ... and then there is zeal, the cetasika chanda, which also means intention, desire, will, according to Nyanatiloka. Is it just a case of differing choices in translation, regarding the use of the words 'intention' or 'thought' and The Noble Eightfold Path? And wouldn't this mean the ideas of 'no control' and 'choice' should be given further consideration? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/6/03 9:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > > ________ > > > > > For some reason, people want to make cetana a second-class > > citizen > > >among the cetasikas. Perhaps this is because willing is thought to > > be > > >characteristic of a "self". But that's just a mistake. > > > > __________ > > Could you be specific as to who does that? It will help if you give > > quotes. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I was conjecturing as to why cetana is spoken of little, and, then, > almost always only negatively. I think it is true that most people think of > willing as something that a "self" does, and I conjecture that this is a > reason for Buddhists to look askance at cetana. I cannot give you chapter and > verse, Robert, but my impression, and I don't think that I'm wrong in this, > is that a number of people on this list, you a little bit, Sarah a little > more, and Jon even moreso, and others (all of whom I admire and have great > fondness for) consider that no-control is a 100% kind of thing, and that, > because there is no self, volition cannot be exercised. I have read > enumerable posts on DSG to convince me of this. If I'm incorrect in this, > then I am very pleased. If I'm correct, well, so it is. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > How do you feel about this statement "In the Nidanavagga > > (book of causation about Paticcasamuppada) the Buddha said in > > several suttas > > "Bhikkhus what one intends and what one plans and whatever one has a > > tendency towards this becomes a basis for the maintenance of > > consciousness..when consciousness is established there is the > > production of renewed existence, birth, ageing, death, sorrow ... > > BUT bhikkhus when one does not intend, and one does not plan and one > > does not have a tendency toward anything no basis exists for > > consciousness...there is no production of renewed existence..no > > birth, ageing, death, sorrow,.."endquote see 576Bodhi > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha made differing statements to different people to address > differing "ailments". He also directed his followers to engage in various > actions, i.e. to exercise their will. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ____________ > > > > it *is* wrong to take the literal incorrectness of > > >conventional speech as a basis for saying that choices cannot be > > made, that > > >nothing can be done, and that whatever will happen will happen, and > > that's > > >that. > > _____ 18586 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 0:58pm Subject: difficulty with Class Notes Hi RobM, I have been trying to download your Class Notes in the Files section of dsg without success. I have Acrobat Reader 5 installed and haven't had trouble with your previous versions, or with any other PDF files. When I try to download the Class Notes, Acrobat Reader appears and goes through the motions, then presents me with a blank page showing the address at the top and tells me it is 'done'. Is it me? Is it the Class Notes? Is there a middle way? metta, Christine 18587 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 1:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) Hi Sara I'm having to send this in two parts. It had bounced twice. Hope it works, spliting it into three could get a bit boring. Sarah wrote: Hi Peter, I found all your additional comments that you wrote to Claire very interesting (I hadn't read these last time I wrote). I agree with your comments about the `highly evolved society' at that time in India. Everything seems to suggest this. === Peter writes: I was trying to bring to Claire's attention the crucial role that (highly) cultivated memory played in the development of self-knowledge/wisdom. I believe 'sati' originally meant 'memory' and that 'mindfulness' is a term coined by Rhys Davids. I often wonder how Buddhism in the West would have developed if he had chosen instead something like the term 'recollectedness'. Perhaps he needed to include the concept of 'clarity' and thus needed a new word that could contain both ideas. Except that according to ~Naanamoli, in his 'Abhidhamma Studies', memory = attentiveness + clarity: i.e. without clarity being present at a moment of attention there will be no recollection of it, (or something like that anyway). I feel this way about a few other basic terms, and regret in particular that 'proliferation' isn't made more use of, 'formations' seems so dry and remote to my mind. Maybe RD needed to include the concept of 'accumulation', which doesn't seem to be implied in 'proliferation': (noo?) === Sarah: The reason I raised some of the `depth of anguish' comments in one or two of your later posts is because I think the idea of needing to really suffer, or be taught by `Ajahn Dukkha' as you put it well, is very common. === Peter: Too true. The 'Ajahn Dukkha' idea could easily lead to the extreme view of self-mortification, at least in its more subtle forms. I just felt that it was a more positive way of looking at Dukkha so as to counter the other extreme view/inclination that it is something wrong and needed avoiding: thus instead using it as a ready tool/indicator that the mind was off balance. Within the context of a balanced practice, which would include generous helpings of BrahmaVihara reflections, I would have thought it probably would be OK. === Sarah: I also read this in the article on samvega (sense of urgency) that Christine gave the link for and which we discussed under that heading. === Peter: This brings me to a point further on in your post. Like so many other posts, I haven't read this one. It isn't just writing that is an effort, reading is too. But I will now make a point of taking it in. === Sarah: You mention in your more recent post (in the context of the Bodhisatta's leaving his family and household/princely life): P:"This works because frustration, anguish, despair, etc. re-emerge and drive us onward, ever deeper into the investigation of the Buddha's Dhamma and Vinaya." ..... I think there's a difference between (a) understanding with panna (wisdom) whatever phenomena appear, including kilesa (defilements) such as anguish, despair and fear and (b)seeing these kilesa as being the driving force or sense or urgency that lead to wisdom developing. === Peter: I would agree. As I see it, understanding with wisdom is one thing, but the motivation to make the effort to do this is quite another. For some yogis, somewhere or other, Dukkha is present is some form or other, in their motivation, at some stage in their career. If instead, compassion (e.g. for all sentient beings) is their motivation, such a yogi will enjoy a much more happier career. However, for many of todays Westerners (well me anyway) such happiness, unknowingly, often brings a sense of guilt, whereas Ajahn Dukkha is for some strange reason much more acceptable. Hence the need for wise friends, to point out the absurdity of this. Cheers. === Sarah: In the Bhayabherava Sutta (Fear and Dread), MN4 which the extracts we were looking at were taken from, ... He then goes on to experience the jhanas, recollection of past lives and full enlightenment. ***** So of course there are conditions for all kilesa to arise for us as mere worldlings and we never know what our accumulations will bring at any moment. Any conditioned phenomena have to be known with detachment. This is the only way the path can develop. Understanding the unsatisfactory nature of all conditioned phenomena is different, I think, from having any idea that experiencing deep anguish and so on are necessary constituents or factors of the path. Surely it is the wisdom which develops in spite of the kilesa, rather than the reverse, that leads us to hear, consider and reflect further. === Peter: I can agree with this. My point was that Dukkha was a factor of motivation so as to apply the results of contemplation. The act of applying the conclusions of such contemplation is quite separate from the motivating factors. (Please be so kind as to remember that you are addressing the worlds number one procrastinator!-)) ==== E N D OF P A R T O N E 18588 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 2:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Yasodhara (rather large) P A R T T W O Sarah: In the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka (Treatise on the Paramis in B.Bodhi's Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries p272f) we read about the perfection of equanimity, the last perfection attained by the Bodhisatta: === Peter: I've been meaning to get this title from BPS for some time. Now I will, as soon as I finish this post! === ..... Sarah: I've rather lost my thread, revisiting the Jataka to check one or two points(always with a few tears;-)). I think my point was that the Bodhisatta had to have a lot of highly developed self-knowledge. The paramis can only be developed with wisdom. I believe that one of the conditions or qualifications for being a Bodhisatta is that in the lifetime the vow is made, he has to be capable of being enlightened in that same lifetime. The paramis are developed on top of this already high level of knowledge. ..... === Peter: I think this answers the question I would have asked, namely: what was the wisdom that the Bodhisatta had, that was not the enlightenment/awakening that he attained as Buddha? Your last para seems to say that the Bodhisatta had enough wisdom to get enlightened at the very outset of his Bodhisatta career. Perhaps this was due to his encounter with the Buddha of that eon, to whom he made this vow (another requirement, as I understand from elsewhere). If so, this would make him a very remarkable being indeed (prior to his awakening): presumably this also applied to Yasodhara and all the rest of his close associates too. I can now see the appeal to some notable people of our own eon who have announced their own aspiration to meet the future Buddha Metreya. Very inspiring indeed! === Sarah: One last comment I'd like to refer to briefly only. You said: P:"Meditation would seem to come quite easy to many children if approached in a skillful way. Any good Buddhist temple will have Sunday school lessons for children age from say six to twelve or so. The one in Wimbledon UK, Wat Buddhapadipa, has a very enthusiastic attendance. My own secular experience at around that age: I'd find myself just sat down, (in a bus of all places), when the most amazing feeling of a bliss-like- tranquillity would suddenly and unexpectedly well up, this happened on a couple of occasions around that time. I can still recollect the feeling after all this time." ***** This is a delicate subject. It's very tempting, I think, to consider such special experiences as being something akin to jhana. === Peter: I do agree. I hope I didn't give the impression that I had skills in meditation at the age of ten, or even now for that matter. Just an unexplained and unexpected upwelling of sensation akin to tranquility only in terms of 'flavour', that did not correspond with anything that was going on around me at that time. I can only remember that the mind was completely empty of all thought or mood. In later years, when hiking in open country for a few days, the mind would suddenly go completely empty. And on one such occasion, at what would have been in the middle of a conversation, except that it ended it! === Sarah: I think that only by understanding more about what tranquillity is, how it is conditioned and the understanding there must be of wholesome and unwholesome states, can we answer this question. I believe that the wisdom required and difficulty of jhana is often underestimated. === Peter: Quite so. The jhanas, as I have read about them, require a lot of skill and patience to develop. I have never, as yet, made any attempt to develop such skills, and am probably too old to start. === Sarah: Peter, you mentioned before about your difficulties in writing. May I just say that we would never have known and appreciate all your efforts in this regard. === Peter: Your support and encouragement are much appreciated. But the sad truth is that I cannot spell to save my life (spell checkers spare me from endless embarrassment (when I remember to use them)), nor can I tell my left hand from my right without a few moments to work it out: most awkward when navigating for others in heavy traffic! It takes me a day to read anything worthwhile, and if I don't get too ambitious and just keep my posting to perhaps one a day for most days, I'll probably get by. Even sadder, to my mind, is that I never get to read many of the posts on this list. I am perfectly sure that I am missing out on quite a lot. But I have learned to count my blessings. It would be rather grand to wave a magic wand and wish: May no other beings ever have anything worse to worry about! === Sarah ====== Cheers Peter 18589 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: difficulty with Class Notes Hi Christine, Good News! The problem is not with you. I experience the same problem. I need to tinker a bit, so I expect the problem should be fixed today. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Hope you had a good holiday season! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi RobM, > > I have been trying to download your Class Notes in the Files section > of dsg without success. I have Acrobat Reader 5 installed and > haven't had trouble with your previous versions, or with any other > PDF files. > When I try to download the Class Notes, Acrobat Reader appears and > goes through the motions, then presents me with a blank page showing > the address at the top and tells me it is 'done'. > Is it me? Is it the Class Notes? Is there a middle way? > > metta, > Christine 18590 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: difficulty with Class Notes Hi Christine, Even better News! I think that the problem has been fixed. Please let me know if it still does not work. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Good News! The problem is not with you. I experience the same > problem. I need to tinker a bit, so I expect the problem should be > fixed today. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > PS: Hope you had a good holiday season! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi RobM, > > > > I have been trying to download your Class Notes in the Files > section > > of dsg without success. I have Acrobat Reader 5 installed and > > haven't had trouble with your previous versions, or with any other > > PDF files. > > When I try to download the Class Notes, Acrobat Reader appears and > > goes through the motions, then presents me with a blank page > showing > > the address at the top and tells me it is 'done'. > > Is it me? Is it the Class Notes? Is there a middle way? > > > > metta, > > Christine 18592 From: Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Way 35, Comm, Breathing "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, The Section on Breathing, p.47 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Sabbakayapatisamvedi Assasissami... passasissamiti sikkhati... = "Experiencing the whole body I shall breathe in... breathe out, thinking thus, he trains himself." He trains himself with the following idea: I shall breathe in making known, making clear, to myself the beginning, middle, and end of the whole body of breathings in; I shall breathe out making known, making clear, to myself the beginning, middle and end of the whole body of breathings out. And he breathes in and breathes out with consciousness associated with knowledge making known, making clear, to himself the breaths." "To one bhikkhu, indeed, in the tenuous diffused body of in- breathing or body of out-breathing only the beginning becomes clear; not the middle or the end. He is able to lay hold of only the beginning. In the middle and at the end he is troubled. To another the middle becomes clear and not the beginning or the end. To a third only the end becomes clear; the beginning and the middle do not become clear and he is able only to lay hold of the breath at the end. He is troubled at the beginning and at the middle. To a fourth even all the three stages become clear and he is able to lay hold of all; he is troubled nowhere. For pointing out that this subject of meditation should be developed after the manner of the fourth one, the Master said: Experiencing... He trains himself." "Since in the earlier way of the practice of this meditation there was nothing else to be done but just breathing in and breathing out, it is said: He thinking, I breathe in... understands... and since thereafter there should be endeavor for bringing about knowledge and so forth, it is said, Experiencing the whole body I shall breathe in." 18593 From: Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state Hi all, There is a lot of discussion on this question of how the unconditioned and the conditioned fit together in the Visuddhimagga. Suffice it to say nibbana is not a mere cessation. It is a reality with its own characteristic (peace). The path leads to the discovery of nibbana by a process of profound disillusionment with conditioned reality. This discovery is likened to swinging across a river on a rope and letting go once we are over the farther bank. It is a definitive cessation because the latent tendencies (anusaya) are eradicated. Vism XXII 12: Here is a simile for this. An archer, it seems, had a target set up at a distance of eight usabhas (about 100 yards), and wrapping his face in a cloth and arming himself with an arrow, he stood on a wheel contrivance (a revolving platform). Another man turned the wheel contrivance, and when the target was opposite the archer, he gave him a sign with a stick. Without pausing after the sign the archer shot the arrow and hit the target. Herein, change-of-lineage knowledge is like the sign with the stick. Path knowledge is like the archer. Path knowledge's making nibbana its object without pausing after the sign given by change-of-lineage, and its piercing and exploding the mass of greed, hate and delusion never pierced and exploded before is like the archer's hitting the target without pausing after the sign. L: I interpret this to mean the act of apprehending nibbana eradicates the anusaya as per whichever of the four path moments it may be. Larry 18594 From: Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Why did Buddha concentrate? Last month someone asked why did Buddha continue to concentrate even after he had been enlightened. Here is a relevant passage... "Now, Brahmin, it might be that you think: 'Perhaps the recluse Gotama is not free from lust, hate, and delusion even today, which is why he still resorts to jungle-thicket resting places in the forest.' But you should not think thus. It is because I see two benefits that I still resort to jungle-thickets resting places in the forest: I see a pleasant abiding for myself here and now, and I have compassion for future generations." (The Buddha...Majjhima Nikaya Sutta # 4) TG 18595 From: Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 34, Comm, Breathing Hi Nina, I'm not sure what you are refering to: N: This whole passage quoted from the Path of Discrimination, does not belong to the sutta text L: I appended a Pm passage from a note by B. ~Nanamoli to clarify a point in Ven. Soma's text which was the same as one in Visuddimagga. One thing that is a little confusing is that in Vism the path is divided into sila, samadhi, and panna and apparently satipatthana is mostly discussed under the samadhi category. But we want to discuss it as panna. So a textual clarification would be helpful here. Personally, I like satipatthana as samadhi. Early on in the commentary it said body contemplation and feeling contemplation were concerned with developing calm and citta and dhamma contemplation were concerned with developing insight. So we might have to wait until we get to cittanupassana before we see anything like an insight. Several of the 16 topics of anapanasati seem to be insight oriented but I don't know if they are discussed in this commentary. Larry 18596 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 9:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) --- Dear Stephen and Howard In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: This intention is free: = controlled without a controller, +++++++++++++++++++++++ You say there is control without a controller. But where is this said in the texts? Of course when speaking conventionally the Buddha used words such as controlling faculties and we can too. The point is not whether we use conventional terms but the understanding. And in daily life when we drive to the garage it makes no difference whether we believe in self, think that we control it all or not. We can still do so. (we might be more relaxed if we understand anatta though) But when discussing profound matters such as the nature of the khandhas and no-self we should be cautious of saying there is control. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' "Feeling is not self... "Perception is not self... "[Mental] fabrications are not self... "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'endquote http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm There are simply conditioned phenomena that arise and perform their functions: When we are fast asleep the khandhas are still arising and passing away - no need to be watching them, trying to control or infuence them. The legs won't fall off (unless there are conditions for that to happen). Exactly the same when we are awake. We won't forget our name or where we live (unless conditions are such for this to happen). Indeed people have nervous breakdowns because they try to control. If they could start to let go of obsessive ideas about what they should and shouldn't do, and the fear (conditioned by clinging to self) that is distorting perception they would become sane in the truest sense. Because anatta-sanna , perception of anatta, is perhpas the most calming perception we can have. Takes a long time to develop though. Another point I would make is that dhammas are here now; the wishing to be aware of them is a different matter from being aware right now. It is fine if I plan to become a wise person in the future, or one with sila, or skilled in jhana; but what about this moment? Is there awareness that this is just thinking? This is what the path is I believe: seeing conditionality everywhere , as Ken often says. Then less concern about future or past, and less clinging to present too. _________ Howard: a number of people on this list, you a little bit, Sarah a little more, and Jon even moreso, and others (all of whom I admire and have great fondness for) consider that no-control is a 100% kind of thing, and that, because there is no self, volition cannot be exercised. """ ______ Sounds like Jon is a real no-control freak! Interestingly out the three of us I would estimate Jon is the most restrained in behaviour. Anyway, there is almost continually intention to do this and that and the way is certainly not to try to surpress intention (the quote I gave yesterday where the Buddha said that what one intends and plans is what leads to becoming is very deep - not meant to be copied so much as understood); but instead to understand those moments as they are right now. ========= Howard: ""it *is* wrong to take the literal incorrectness of conventional speech as a basis for saying that choices cannot be made, that nothing can be done, and that whatever will happen will happen, and that's that. The Buddha taught a program of training for us to put into practice. That is true. When our "understanding" of impersonality leads us to the point that we disbelieve the truth of it, it is time, I believe, to change our "understanding".""" __________ Your concerns here remind me (just a very little:))of a sutta. Once the Buddha was expounding in various ways about anatta: "Now at that time this train of thought arose in the awareness of a certain monk: "It seems, then, that form is not-self, feeling is not- self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. So the actions done by what is not-self will touch what self? Then the Blessed One, having encompassed with his awareness the awareness of that monk, addressed the monks: "It's possible that a man -- his awareness immersed in ignorance & governed by craving -- might think that the Teacher's message can be slipped past in this way: 'It seems, then, that form is not-self, feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness is not-self. So what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' SN XXII.82 The Buddha taught so much about kamma and the result of actions. But here he was explaining the path out of samsara and for that I believe the anattaness and uncontrollabilty of the khandhas is what is to be known. This is something Jon wrote that is worth reflecting on: "I'd like to suggest that the idea that awareness or understanding must be or is normally preceded by some form of volitional practice doesnot give due account to the conditioned nature of realities that is so central to the Buddha's teaching. .... It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the defilementsthat are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the development of insight. It is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about which we have relatively very little idea -- that are the major hindrances. The development of the path might be a lot easier if it was a matter of somehow dealing with more obvious kilesa."""endquote And what Dan said about viriya in his unique way: "As an example, consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! This is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: [Dhs. 13] "What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at that time is the faculty of endeavor." The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment and understanding. `endquote by Dan RobertK 18597 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] NEO of The Matrix (Was:Re: Dhamma Issues...etc.) Hi James KC: Nibbana is an object of the mind before perluding to realising Nibbana during full Arahantship. I think I did not dispute that Buddha is not in Nibbana. Once a person is a Buddha, we could say that he is in Nibbana simply bc he must be there in order to describe it to us. However we also know that he has also to go through living in his body. His mind is in Nibbana but his karmic body must go through the process of decaying and dying until ParaNibbana. In that sense he is living in Samasara but the mind is in Nibbana. But to equate Samasara to be the same as Nibbana is too far stretch and conflicting bc one is based on conditions while the other is not. KC: Do we say that Buddha exist after ParaNibbana? We know that it is a question Buddha did not answer. If Buddha answer it, then the possibility of us linking to a *self* is very high which defeats his initial goal of telling us to get rid of a self. That is the danger which I feel Mahayana has to be careful of. Even linking it to the "True Nature" is like condoning a "self" belief. Not to answer is the best way to answer this question as we could see his conversation with the wanderer (forget the sutta already) and the "flame sutta". Even KKT mention the sutta which comes from the book "Treasury of Mahayana Suttas" and if I have not forgotton the title is "Sword of Wisdom" is talking about Nibbana or in more simplistic term, anatta. kind rgds KC Finally, he discovered the secret. That to `know' what > > he was seeking, he had to `become' what he was seeking. He had to > forsake `Gotama' and become Nibbana. Then, what he was seeking and > > what he was became one thing. He had reached Nibbana. Nibbana > wasn't an object of `the mind of Gotama' that `he' `knew'; his mind > > had become Nibbana. It had become free. `Gotama' didn't exist any > > longer; he was then The Buddha, the Enlightened One. He would no > longer be subject to birth, death, old age, sickness, or death > because those things were not born of his true nature, they were > born > of craving, ignorance, and desire to keep existing. When those > things were removed, he became his true nature. Existence and non- > existence don't apply to the state of Nibbana that was the Buddha; > those are features of the mind. Gotama had transcended himself, > achieved an exstasis, and become immeasurable. > > This is just my view. If you don't agree, okay. > > Metta, James > > 18598 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Hi Robert K KC: I still remember I discuss this issue before. I think I was wrong the previous times about cetana. You are right to say that there is no control over the khandas but these are for pple who have achieved a certain level of development. I do not know which level. In the meantime, there is a need to direct cetana or not Buddha will not talk about Sila, livelihood and sati. Or during his times, what is to be done what is not to be done bc he knows we are fallable Until we could do unprompted kusala behaviour and latent tendecies are not that strong, there is a need to direct cetana and that needs a certain form of directing cetana and hence Buddha talk about the Eight Noble path which are cater for both mundane and supramundane state. Ultimately, the Buddha path is no control when one developed from citta to maga citta, there is no need for any control as it becomes unprompted kusala behaviour like a tidal wave. kind rgds KC --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- > Dear Stephen and Howard > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, oreznoone@a... wrote: > This intention is free: = controlled without a controller, > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > You say there is control without a controller. But where is this > said > in the texts? Of course when speaking conventionally the Buddha > used > words such as controlling faculties and we can too. The point is > not > whether we use conventional terms but the understanding. > And in daily life when we drive to the garage it makes no > difference > whether we believe in self, think that we control it all or not. We > > can still do so. (we might be more relaxed if we understand anatta > though) > > But when discussing profound matters such as the nature of the > khandhas and no-self we should be cautious of saying there is > control. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta > "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would > not > lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard > to > form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But > precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. > And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form > > be thus. Let this form not be thus.' > "Feeling is not self... > "Perception is not self... > "[Mental] fabrications are not self... > "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this > consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be > possible > [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be > thus. > Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because > consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. > And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let > my > consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'endquote > http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm > > > There are simply conditioned phenomena that arise and perform their > > functions: When we are fast asleep the khandhas are still arising > and > passing away - no need to be watching them, trying to control or > infuence them. The legs won't fall off (unless there are conditions > > for that to happen). Exactly the same when we are awake. > We won't forget our name or where we live (unless conditions are > such > for this to happen). Indeed people have nervous breakdowns because > they try to control. If they could start to let go of obsessive > ideas > about what they should and shouldn't do, and the fear (conditioned > by > clinging to self) that is distorting perception they would become > sane in the truest sense. Because anatta-sanna , perception of > anatta, is perhpas the most calming perception we can have. Takes a > > long time to develop though. > > Another point I would make is that dhammas are here now; the > wishing > to be aware of them is a different matter from being aware right > now. > It is fine if I plan to become a wise person in the future, or one > with sila, or skilled in jhana; but what about this moment? Is > there > awareness that this is just thinking? > This is what the path is I believe: seeing conditionality > everywhere , as Ken often says. Then less concern about future or > past, and less clinging to present too. > > _________ > Howard: a number of people on this list, you a little bit, Sarah > a > little more, and Jon even moreso, and others (all of whom I admire > > and have great fondness for) consider that no-control is a 100% > kind > of thing, and that, because there is no self, volition cannot be > exercised. """ > ______ > Sounds like Jon is a real no-control freak! Interestingly out the > three of us I would estimate Jon is the most restrained in > behaviour. > Anyway, there is almost continually intention to do this and that > and > the way is certainly not to try to surpress intention (the quote I > gave yesterday where the Buddha said that what one intends and > plans > is what leads to becoming is very deep - not meant to be copied so > much as understood); but instead to understand those moments as > they > are right now. > ========= > Howard: ""it *is* wrong to take the literal incorrectness of > conventional speech as a basis for saying that choices cannot be > made, that > nothing can be done, and that whatever will happen will happen, and > > that's > that. The Buddha taught a program of training for us to put into > practice. That is true. When our "understanding" of impersonality > leads us to the point that we disbelieve the truth of it, it is > time, > I believe, to change our "understanding".""" > __________ > > Your concerns here remind me (just a very little:))of a sutta. Once > > the Buddha was expounding in various ways about anatta: > "Now at that time this train of thought arose in the awareness of a > > certain monk: "It seems, then, that form is not-self, feeling is > not- > self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, > consciousness is not-self. So the actions done by what is not-self > will touch what self? > Then the Blessed One, having encompassed with his awareness the > awareness of that monk, addressed the monks: "It's possible that a > > man -- his awareness immersed in ignorance & governed by craving -- > > might think that the Teacher's message can be slipped past in this > way: 'It seems, then, that form is not-self, feeling ... > perception ... fabrications ... consciousness is not-self. So what > self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' SN > XXII.82 > > The Buddha taught so much about kamma and the result of actions. > But > here he was explaining the path out of samsara and for that I > believe > the anattaness and uncontrollabilty of the khandhas is what is to > be > known. > > This is something Jon wrote that is worth reflecting on: "I'd like > to > suggest that the idea that awareness or understanding > must be or is normally preceded by some form of volitional practice > > doesnot give due account to the conditioned nature of realities > that > is so > central to the Buddha's teaching. > .... > It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the > defilementsthat are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would > very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the > development of insight. It > is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about > which > we have relatively very little idea -- that are the major > hindrances. The development of the path might be a lot easier if > it > was a matter of somehow dealing with more obvious > kilesa."""endquote > > And what Dan said about viriya in his unique way: "As an example, > consider effort/energy/endeavour which is one of the components of > each: the right exertions, the bases of power, the five > faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the > > noble eightfold path. We read from the Dhammasangani (376): Katamam > > tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? "What at that time is the faculty > > of effort/energy/endeavor?" "That which is mental endeavor > (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, > endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost > exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having > > sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, > discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of > effort, > power of effort, wrong effort -- this at that time is the faculty > of > endeavor." > > Wrong effort?! Everything sounded pretty good up to that point! > This > is a description of the viriya cetasika arising with lobha-mula- > cittani. It is interesting to read how it differs from the viriya > cetasika arising with the sense-sphere kusala cittas: > [Dhs. 13] "What > at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor? That which > is > mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting > harder > and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking > zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering > endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not > relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) > as > the faculty of effort, power of effort, right effort -- this at > that > time is the faculty of endeavor." > > The only difference is the word "right" in the second paragraph > contrasting with the "wrong" of the first. It's fine and dandy to > toss around lists of the five this's and the four that's, but it is > > critical to be able to discern clearly when they are "right" > or "wrong" as they arise. This hinges on development of discernment > > and understanding. `endquote by Dan > > RobertK 18599 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Rob M, Just a few more brief points on this topic: --- "robmoult " wrote: > >Your post happened just after I went off-line. I did not intend to > question the value of the commentaries nor the value of the > Abhidhammattha Sangha. However, I feel it is important to see > them "as they truly are" and recognize the potential for papanca > that arises (I explain at the end of this post what I mean by > papanca in this context). ,,,, Points all well-taken as I think I indicated before. ..... > Even the "traditional view" recognizes that the Abhidhamma Pitaka > was not the word of the Buddha. In the "traditional view", the > Buddha delivered the Abhidhamma to an assembly of Devas for three > solid months during the seventh vassa (rainy season retreat) after > His enlightenment. Each day, the Buddha would come to earth to eat > and pass along to Sariputta, "This much has been covered thus > far...". Sariputta, being incredibly smart, filled in the details to > the "table of contents" provided by the Buddha and passed the > Abhidhamma to his 500 students (this was eventually written down as > the Abhidhamma Pitaka). In other words, there are three versions of > the Abhidhamma: > - The long version (delivered by the Buddha to the Devas) > - The short version (passed by the Buddha to Sariputta) > - The medium version (passed by Sariputta to his disciples and to us) ..... I understood it rather to be the other way round - that Sariputta was given the medium version and added the “table of contents” and so on. But you may be right in that the Buddha would need to say very little for Sariputta to get the full message, just as when he became enlightened. A few relevant quotes from the Atthasalini (Expositor p.20f) on this rather academic point: 1. “Sariputta, Generalissimo of the Law, went there, served the Supreme Buddha, and sat aside. Then to him the Teacher gave the method saying, ‘Sariputta, so much doctrine has been shown.’ thus the giving of the method was to the chief disciple, who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. To the Elder also the doctrine taught by the Blessed One in hundreds and thousands of methods became very clear.” ..... 2. “The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book was also determined by him. In this way the Elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law. Such being the case, was the Elder the very first to understand the Abhidhamma? nay, it was the Supreme Buddha who first understood the Abhidhamma.” ..... 3. “..Abhidhamma is not the province of others; it is the province of Buddhas only. Such a discourse as the Abhidhamma can be taught by them only....” ..... 4. About the Patthana (last book of the Abhidhamma) “..Of these the twenty-two triplets and the hundred couplets taught by the omniscient buddha are the directly spoken words of the conqueror and form the table of contents for the seven books. “Then whence arose the other forty-two couplets? By whom were they laid down and taught? They originated with Sariputta, Generalissimo of the Law, having been laid down and taught by him. But he did not lay them down through his own self-evolved knowledge. They have been gathered from ..., in order to help students of the Abhidhamma in their references to the Suttantas. .....” ..... > Of course, one could argue that the Buddha was around for 38 years > after Sariputta passed the Abhidhamma to his students so the Buddha > must have known what was said and had an opportunity to correct any > errors. In any case, I see great value in both the Pitaka and the > commentaries (including the Abhidhammattha Sangha). It is clear that > they were written by people who were much smarter than I am. ..... We also read in many places that the Buddha made comments regarding his chief disciples like: “ ‘Bhikkhus, learned is Mahakaccana, profoundly wise is Mahakaccana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have answered exactly as he has done.’ Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole Suttanta became the word of the Buddha. And it is the same with the suttas expounded by Ananda and others.” ..... > Allow me to explain what prompted my original message. > > I was in Mumbai, India, riding in the back seat of a car. > I asked myself why I was so disconnected with the present moment and > I realized that I had fallen into a trap of "analysis paralysis"; I > was caught up in the intellectual aspects of the Abhidhamma so much > that I forgot the purpose of the Abhidhamma. > > Sarah, I seem to recall you mentioning that Khun Sujin had also > warned against getting caught up in the theory and losing > perspective on the present moment. ..... Exactly so...I think it’s really important to keep in mind the purpose of the study: i.e to detach from the idea of self and to understand realities/actualities at this moment. I appreciate your recent reflections in this regard. ..... > > I observed that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was already quite theoretical > and abstract and noticed that the commentaries and subcommentaries > seemed to be moving in a direction toward increasing theory (i.e. > more specific details of the citta-process, etc.) rather than closer > to the practical application of awareness of the present moment. ..... It depends how anything - a short sutta verse or a long commentary is read - with or without any understanding at the time. Whether reading commentaries or engineering manuals or just day-dreaming (as I found I was happily doing at the dentist’s this morning), it is very easy to be lost in proliferations and without any awareness. Perhaps whilst reading texts or other activities one associates with wholesome states, it’s easier to be fooled;-) We can see how easily the silabbataparamasa (clinging to rites and rituals) can slip in at these times. ..... > I concluded my original message with a conclusion that I would > continue to teach all the theory (including the stuff from the > commentaries and subcommentaries), but I will constantly remind the > students of why we are studying this stuff. This is part of my > effort to minimize pananca. > > By papanca, I meant becoming wrapped up in the theory and losing > sight of the practical. ..... I think I encouraged this in more detail when I last wrote. ..... > Looking back on my original message, this theme was not very clearly > expressed. I apologize. ..... Not at all. No one would ever doubt the value you place on the Abhidhamma texts, Rob and for my part I just appreciate your growing expression of the need to apply what we read and study to the present moment and the development of satipatthana. Sarah =====